Thursday Volume 507 18 March 2010 No. 60

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 18 March 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 951 18 MARCH 2010 952

the autumn. In fact, there was a public meeting in the House of Commons west midlands earlier this week. I will make sure that my hon. Friend is kept abreast of developments and Thursday 18 March 2010 that his views about the need to consult as many people as possible are taken on board before the autumn consultation begins. The House met at half-past Ten o’clock Jeremy Wright (Rugby and Kenilworth) (Con): As PRAYERS the Minister knows, the proposed line would run right through my constituency, including Burton Green, which the hon. Member for Coventry, South (Mr. Cunningham) [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] mentioned. In respect of the impact of the construction work, may I ask that information be made available on BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS two specific matters? First, will there need to be any extra land-take in order to complete the construction LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] work? As the Minister will appreciate, the proposed line (BY ORDER) passes very close to residential properties in Burton Second Reading opposed and deferred until Thursday Green and elsewhere, and if people’s gardens are to be 25 March (Standing Order No. 20). affected, it would be helpful to know about that. Secondly, can he inform residents about any particular implications that may arise from the building of access shafts? Oral Answers to Questions Mr. Khan: The hon. Gentleman has raised very important issues, as he did the other day. On any potential extra land-take, he will be aware that the broadest width of TRANSPORT the area for the high speed rail will be about 25 metres, which is a lot, and the narrowest width will be 15 metres. The Minister of State was asked— We have asked High Speed 2 to go away and do further High Speed Rail work to minimise the disruption caused and to mitigate the effects on the constituents of the hon. Gentleman 1. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): and other Members, and I will make sure he is kept What his most recent assessment is of the likely effects abreast of the progress we make. It is important that we on residents in the west midlands of the construction keep Members involved before the formal consultation works associated with the establishment of high-speed begins, and that we minimise any blight caused to their rail links. [322748] constituents. I give the hon. Gentleman an undertaking to do just that. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr. Sadiq Khan): We would seek to minimise the effects of construction wherever possible. Initial decisions Mr. Ken Purchase (Wolverhampton, North-East) (Lab/ on whether to build a high-speed line and what route Co-op): We who live in the region welcome this that line should take will be taken in the light of the development. Although we are, of course, concerned autumn 2010 consultation. Thereafter, the full effects about the environmental impact, the Minister should and any associated mitigation measures would be subject give priority to highlighting the economic development to an environmental impact assessment as part of the opportunities that will arise from the line. Will he also hybrid Bill process, which would itself be subject to ensure that we develop the line in such a way that all further public scrutiny. those towns and cities just north of Birmingham do not miss out on what is an once-in-a-lifetime economic Mr. Cunningham: I thank my hon. Friend for that opportunity? answer. While I would welcome a high-speed rail line through the midlands because of the benefits it would bring, there is a concern about the corridor between Mr. Khan: My hon. Friend will be pleased to know Coventry and Warwickshire, particularly in the Burton that the preferred route will lead to benefits not only for Green area. Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that his neck of the woods, but for other parts of the there will be both adequate public consultation as soon country, as it will go to both Manchester and Leeds. In as possible so that residents’ views are taken into the construction phase, more than 10,000 jobs will be consideration, and a realistic impact study undertaken created, and there will be 2,000 permanent jobs. The of the possible effects in the area? Let me conclude, economic benefits to our country will be enormous. however, by repeating that I would welcome this scheme That is, of course, why my hon. Friend has been one of and the benefits it would bring, especially given that the the keenest advocates of High Speed 2. west midlands unemployment rate is 10 per cent. and its manufacturing base has been eroded. That link would Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): be a shot in the arm for the region. Will the Minister bear it in mind that during my time in Mr. Khan: My hon. Friend has been a keen advocate the House the residents of South Staffordshire have had of High Speed 2, but he has also been keen to ensure their lives disrupted by the building of three motorways? that we are aware of some of the downsides of a Will he take that carefully into account and try to high-speed line. Consultations with local residents have ensure that there is the minimum possible disruption already begun in advance of the formal consultation in from this welcome development? 953 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 954

Mr. Khan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. lighting on the motorways. Local authorities will want We have been keen to try to learn the lessons from to consider, in the light of their local circumstances, previous mass infrastructure projects—not only massive developing policies that can address light pollution and motorway projects, but High Speed 1. Fifty per cent. of its impact on the night sky, as well as parallel policies, the preferred route will be either along existing transport such as those aimed at carbon reduction, that might corridors next to motorways, or next to used or disused drive them to turn off or dim their highway lighting. rail lines. That leaves 50 per cent. on virgin land. We need to make sure we learn the lessons and learn from New Rolling Stock previous mistakes, in order to minimise the disruption caused to the constituents of the hon. Gentleman and 3. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What plans he has for those of many more Members in other parts of the the procurement of new rolling stock in the next five country. years; and if he will make a statement. [322750]

Mr. Brian Jenkins (Tamworth) (Lab): My constituents The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport will be affected by this track. They have just had to go (Chris Mole): The Department for Transport’s plans through the four-tracking of the west coast line. That focus on the steps that need to be taken to deliver caused disruption with no benefit to the people in my additional capacity specified in the high-level output part of the world. What can the Minister say to two of specification for the period 2009 to 2014 and the my constituents who have now found out via the media requirements to achieve its longer-term aspirations. that their property will be knocked down as it is on the permanent way for the building of this new line, when John Howell: The Association of Train Operating they were, in fact, actively seeking to downsize for Companies has complained about the level of micro- health reasons? What can the Minister offer them apart management and of overregulation by the Department from a consultation for the next six months? Can we for Transport in relation to the rolling stock. How is the afford to buy these people out, who need get off the Minister taking those complaints into account? Will we permanent way? see some scaling back of the Government’s role, for which we have long argued? Mr. Khan: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. First, I am happy to meet him and his constituents to Chris Mole: It is the Department’s responsibility to discuss their concerns. Secondly, we have begun consultation ensure that we get rolling stock that is usable on the on an exceptional hardship scheme, over and above the long-term network. We develop proposals for additional statutory blight provisions for constituents such as those rolling stock in full consultation with the train operating he mentioned. Although I am confident that those two companies, which have, in the first instance, the immediate measures will deal with some of the concerns and they use for it. will mitigate the problems, I am afraid that they will not solve them altogether. I look forward to meeting him Mr. Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe) (Lab): I am and his constituents to try to address the genuine problems sure my hon. Friend is aware that proposals to improve that he has raised. the Sheffield to Manchester line are very welcome for the future. Of immediate concern, however, is the East Light Pollution Midlands Trains service between Norwich and Liverpool, because at peak periods the service between Sheffield 2. Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): If he and Manchester regularly runs at double its proper will review the guidance notes for the reduction of capacity, with passengers crammed in like sardines. Can obtrusive light with a view to reducing light pollution he offer any hope that we will get newer and larger from highway lighting. [322749] trains on that service in the relatively near future?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Chris Mole: I can assure my hon. Friend that we will (Chris Mole): This is not strictly a matter for the Department be making an announcement on just that, if not today, for Transport. The guidance notes for the reduction of very shortly. obtrusive light are produced by the Institution of Lighting Engineers. The institution is responsible for any future Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD): review of its guidance. Has the Department engaged in any discussions with either of the sleeper franchise operators? Has the Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Why does the Minister not Department, via the Scottish Government, discussed take some responsibility for once, as this is an important with ScotRail the pressing need for new investment in issue? Is he aware that badly designed street and road sleeper capacity, because the rolling stock is more than lighting is the commonest form of reported light pollution, 30 years old? This is a good, green, environmentally and it also wastes a lot of energy? The Government friendly way to travel, but the disability access and claim that they are interested in energy efficiency, so internet connection are woeful, as are such basics as the why does he not get a grip of this and do something for heating. a change? This would be good for the environment and it would save money, so what is holding him back? Chris Mole: The accessibility of the rolling stock will be covered by the rail vehicle accessibility regulations, Chris Mole: If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the which will require all vehicles to be compliant by 1 January role of the Highways Agency, for which the Department 2020. In the short term, the right hon. Gentleman has is directly responsible, he will find that it already has reasonably raised wider questions that I shall look into programmes designed to turn off unnecessary road for him. 955 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 956

Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): I greatly welcome to electrification has changed the nature of our commitment what my hon. Friend has just said about the Sheffield to to rolling stock, going forward. Indeed, that will deliver Manchester line, most of which is in my constituency. an additional 300 to 400 carriages that can be used On the procurement of rolling stock generally, will he elsewhere on the network when we sign the contract bear in mind the importance of that industry to the east with Thameslink. He would expect us to do that responsibly midlands, not just for the major producers, but for the and in a way that gets best value for the taxpayer. supply chain, which includes the production of brake linings in my constituency? Will he talk to people such Vehicle Cloning as representatives of the East Midlands Development Agency to ensure that we maximise the benefits to east 4. Angela Watkinson (Upminster) (Con): If he will midlands employment and industry arising from such bring forward proposals to assist those whose vehicles procurement? have been illegally cloned. [322751] Chris Mole: The rail industry is obviously an important one for manufacturing industry in key regions of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport UK. The Government are keen to see that industry (Paul Clark): We already assist victims of cloning and respond to our requirements for additional rolling stock will give their vehicle a new registration, if appropriate. by bidding, for example, to meet the Thameslink key Number plate supply is tightly regulated to counter the output 2 train requirements, which are currently under availability of false number plates and prevent cloning. consideration. Such opportunities allow the industry to The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency has sponsored come forward with good bids. the development of a standard for theft-resistant number plates, which are now commercially available. Mrs. Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Will the Minister tell the House how many of the 1,300 Angela Watkinson: I thank the Minister for that high-level output specification carriages are in operation response. An elderly couple in my constituency are on the Northern Rail franchise? among the estimated 20,000 innocent motorists who are victims of cloning—in this example, by a minicab driver Chris Mole: We have made announcements for an who was regularly collecting parking tickets at Heathrow additional, I think, 18 vehicles on the Northern franchise airport. That was extremely distressing for them and as part of the commitment to delivering the high-level took a long time to resolve. Will he look more urgently output specification, which of course has a delivery at how the processing of such cases might be speeded end-date in 2014. up so that the distress to the victims of those crimes Mrs. Villiers: Why cannot the Minister just admit may be reduced? that, after four successive Secretaries of State have promised 1,300 extra carriages, only 10 are in use on a Paul Clark: First, I extend my sympathy to the elderly line that is pivotal to commuters across the north of couple in the hon. Lady’s constituency who face this England? Will he admit that the Government have difficulty. We recognise the issue, which is why we put effectively junked the intercity express programme contract, out clear guidance. Someone who is, for example, receiving because they dithered for so long over electrification, parking tickets that they have not incurred should take and that Thameslink has slipped again? Will he further the matter up, first and foremost, with those who have admit that Government policy is in disarray and that issued the tickets, and then with the DVLA. Extensive commuters are paying the price for Labour incompetence? guidance is available through a number of sources— information is sent out directly to those of us who are Chris Mole: In the first year of a five-year control road users, but is also on the directgov website. We have period, we have delivered a contract for more than taken several other steps to ensure that the number of 40 per cent. of the 1,300 target additional vehicles that such cases is reduced still further. we committed to. I have already launched some of the additional vehicles—120 vehicles—that will be used on Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): the Greater Anglia franchise to relieve commuter congestion The Government have failed miserably to tackle the into Liverpool Street. problem of vehicle cloning. Many motorists face the Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): Since privatisation, misery and distress of receiving dozens of tickets for there has been a 58 per cent. increase in passenger offences that have nothing to do with them. Why is it vehicle miles, but only a 4 per cent. increase in carriages. still so easy to buy so-called show plates over the While the Government have many successes on railways internet? It is so easy that, rather embarrassingly for that they can, allegedly, point to, the rolling stock policy the Minister, I was recently able to purchase plates has been a fiasco from start to finish, with stop-go identical to those on the Prime Minister’s official Jaguar policies. For example, Diesel Trains was set up and then in that way. abandoned without a single diesel train being ordered. Given that the network will be largely diesel driven for Paul Clark: The answer is very simple. The Opposition the foreseeable future, notwithstanding the Government’s spokesperson will know that the DVLA has introduced electrification policies, what steps are they taking to a standard for anti-theft number plates. It has worked ensure that new diesel trains will be ordered for the with the industry so that people can buy what I call network, because none have been ordered so far? “self-destruct” number plates, which break into many pieces if removed. Other developments include the use Chris Mole: We have record £15 billion investment in of clutch-head screws, which can be tightened but not our railways over the coming years, and it is disingenuous unscrewed. We are taking those steps to deal with the to suggest that we are not investing in our railways. The issue rightly raised by the hon. Member for Upminster hon. Gentleman must understand that the commitment (Angela Watkinson). 957 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 958

EU Legislation (Buses) The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr. Sadiq Khan): Under the urban congestion programme, person journey times have improved by 5.5 per cent. 5. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): over the last four years on key routes in the 10 participating When he next expects to meet representatives of bus urban areas. operators to discuss the effect on them of the requirements of EU legislation. [322753] On the strategic road network, delays for the slowest 10 per cent. of journeys in the year to January 2010 have reduced by 7.7 per cent. since the March 2008 The Minister of State, Department for Transport baseline. However, I recognise that congestion is still a (Mr. Sadiq Khan): Ministers and departmental officials major issue for the many people stuck on roads in buses, meet regularly with representatives of bus operators to cars and other modes of transport. Reducing congestion discuss issues affecting the bus industry, including those remains a major priority. relating to the effect of EU legislation on bus operators. Ann Winterton: Is the Minister aware of the recent Mr. Bellingham: When the Minister comes to consider report from the Road Users Alliance, which predicts the European passenger rights legislation, will he bear it that traffic jams will rise by 37 per cent. over 15 years? It in mind that small rural bus operators, which provide goes on to claim that underinvestment has left Britain’s vital services in constituencies such as mine, are very roads different from long-distance, international operators? Does he agree that we already have very effective domestic “uncompetitive, congested…and inadequate to meet the future needs of the economy”. disability legislation? Furthermore, a date has been set for scrapping buses that are non-wheelchair compliant. What is the Government’s answer to that criticism?

Mr. Khan: The hon. Gentleman has written to me Mr. Khan: I am unaware of that figure, but the hon. about this issue, and I am aware of his concerns. I have Lady is right to say that congestion incurs a cost for the raised it with the bus company Norfolk Green in his UK. In his report a couple of years ago, Sir Rod patch, and I have written back to him. It is worth Eddington quantified that cost at £22 billion by 2025 if putting it on record that he is right to raise his concerns. steps were not taken to reduce congestion. That is why we announced last year that we were making £6 billion We secured significant improvements to the text of available to reduce congestion by widening motorways, the EU passenger proposal. They included the removal making it possible for drivers to use the hard shoulders, of the public service contract condition from the exemption and introducing active traffic management. This year, for urban, suburban and rural buses, which would have we have spent £2.5 billion on encouraging people to use rendered it largely unworkable in our deregulated market. buses, and made £1 billion available for older and The hon. Gentleman will also be pleased to know that disabled people. Over the next five years, we will invest we secured the removal of the provision introducing £15 billion in our railways. More people are using rail strict liability for bus and coach operators, which would today than at any time since the 1940s, and more people have conflicted with our well-established fault-based use buses than at any time since privatisation in the system. He and I both used to be lawyers, so we both 1980s. Smarter choices need to be made. appreciate the importance of that system.

Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): I wonder whether Barking to Gospel Oak Line the Minister could please take a look at the application of European legislation by Lancashire county council? The very existence of much valued transport providers 7. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): What such as dial-a-ride, which we all have in our constituencies, recent discussions he has had with Transport for is being threatened by a hurried tendering exercise. So London on the electrification of the Barking to Gospel far, that process has seen the contract being awarded Oak line. [322757] in-house, back to the country council, thereby threatening the much valued voluntary organisations that provided The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport the service valiantly over the years. (Chris Mole): There have been no discussions since the first half of last year. This is a Transport for London Mr. Khan: I thank my hon. Friend for raising once proposal and I understand that it needs to commission again the way that her council treats some of the most further development work but is not currently funding vulnerable people in her patch. I am happy to meet her this. and to write to the council leaders to make sure that they understand the requirements of the current legislation. Jeremy Corbyn: I wonder whether my hon. Friend We cannot allow people to use the EU as an excuse for could help in this matter and perhaps seek a meeting punishing those who need help the most. We will not with the Mayor of London and Transport for London. allow that to happen. As I understand it, his Department has offered £25 million towards this very important refurbishment by electrification Traffic Congestion of this line, which will help to take freight off the roads and increase the efficiency of the London overground network. Will he therefore press the Mayor once again 6. Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): What recent to accept the Government’s money and find the small estimate he has made of the level of traffic congestion. amount that is required from his budget in order to [322755] ensure that the project goes ahead? 959 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 960

Chris Mole: No specific sum was committed by the Paul Clark: I will not prejudge Sir Peter North’s Department for Transport, but the Mayor for London report, but we will certainly take on board his does have £3 billion non-ring-fenced investment in transport. recommendations on whether there should be a new His priorities seem to be with his friends in Kensington lower limit in tandem with the current limit and whether and Chelsea rather than with my hon. Friend’s constituents penalties should be revised. I am determined to ensure in Barking. that the 430 deaths recorded in the 2008 statistics as a result of drink-driving are reduced still further and that Car Journeys we continue the successes that there have been in improving 8. Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): What our road safety. estimate he has made of the number of miles travelled by cars on roads in England in (a) 1997 and (b) 2009. Heathrow (Air Quality) [322758] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport 10. Mr. David Amess (Southend, West) (Con): What (Paul Clark): In 1997, cars travelled an estimated his most recent assessment is of the likely effects on air 195.9 billion miles on roads in England. This rose to quality in the area of a third runway at Heathrow 214.2 billion miles in 2008. Figures for traffic on roads Airport. [322761] in England in 2009 will be published in July 2010. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Mr. Robathan: May I take the Minister back to (Paul Clark): The Department for Transport published 6 June 1997 when the then Deputy Prime Minister and its latest assessment of the likely effects of a third runway Secretary of State for Transport, in an interview with at Heathrow Airport on local air quality in the “Adding The Guardian, said: Capacity at Heathrow Airport—Impact Assessment” “I will have failed in this if in five years there are not…far document in January 2009. A copy of the impact assessment fewer journeys by car. It is a tall order but I want you to hold me and earlier technical reports on the air quality modelling to it”? have all been deposited in the Libraries of the House. I know that the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) has moved on, but I wonder if I might hold the Government to it, and ask the Minister, Mr. Amess: We are already in breach of European air first, what he will do about it, and, secondly, why would quality directives. Does the Minister not accept that, as anybody believe anything that any Labour Minister a result of the extension of the third runway, air and says after this? surface pollution will increase and it will be impossible for us to meet our air quality obligations? Paul Clark: There is a very simple answer to that. The proof has been in the delivery in terms of investing in Paul Clark: No, I do not accept that. When in January our infrastructure, across railways and roads. It is a 2009 we announced our decision to proceed with the result of having a substantially buoyant economy, with third runway at Heathrow, we made it clear that we 2.5 million more people in jobs. The number of households would have in place stringent requirements on air and with more than two cars today is 32 per cent., which is noise pollution. We have worked with the Committee more than the households with no car, which is 25 per on Climate Change, which has indicated that, even at cent. The investment in our roads is a result of the the most pessimistic level, we would be in a position to buoyant economy that we have had. Our record in meet growth in passenger numbers of some 60 per cent., terms of increased use of buses, trains and road, which or a 54 per cent. increase in flights. However, we have my right hon. Friend the Minister of State has just made it clear that we will have in place a legally binding mentioned, recognises what a successful economy we agreement that there will be no further expansion beyond have run. 2020 without ensuring that we are on target to meet the Drink-Driving stringent requirements that we set out.

9. Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Given that What progress has been made on his plans to reduce the EU has already—in December—thrown out the the blood alcohol limit for driving from 80 mg to Government’s shameful application for an exemption 50 mg. [322759] on particulate matter, which is especially dangerous in relation to respiratory diseases, do the Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport really propose to go ahead with an application on (Paul Clark): My noble Friend the Secretary of State nitrogen oxides? announced in December that we had asked Sir Peter North to undertake an independent review of drink and drug-driving legislation. The review is examining options Paul Clark: We certainly believe that we should continue, for changes to the legal alcohol limit for drivers. Sir Peter because what we cannot do is put at risk UK plc and the has been asked to report initial findings by the end of requirements of businesses in this country, or bury our March. We will then consult on his findings before heads in the sand about the requirements for aviation. finalising and publishing the post-2010 road safety strategy. At the same time, however, we have to make sure that we meet the stringent requirements on environmental Mr. Leech: Will the Minister assure the House that if pollution and noise levels for all concerned that we set the drink-drive limit is reduced from 80 mg to 50 mg, a out in our announcement in January. It is important mandatory driving ban will be in place for drivers found that, instead of suggesting that we do not need to meet guilty of being over the limit between the new and the the requirements of those who require aviation services, old limit? we meet the challenge, show leadership and go forward. 961 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 962

Cycling and Motorcycling Accidents Alun Michael: I am surprised at the Minister’s figures. Will he not accept that the information available online 12. Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): is still inconsistent, confusing, inadequate and based on What steps his Department is taking to reduce the the interests of train operators? Do we not need, and number of deaths of, and serious accidents involving, will he take action that requires the industry to provide, motorcyclists and cyclists. [322763] a simple system based on the needs and interests of travellers? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Paul Clark): Specific road safety initiatives aimed at Chris Mole: My right hon. Friend is entirely right to motorcyclists and cyclists include a new Think! campaign draw attention to the fact that 86 per cent. of inquiries on motorcycle safety, training for young cyclists via to NRE come from the internet. The ticketing and Bikeability, and the enhanced rider scheme for post-test settling agreement requires train operators to retail training for motorcyclists. Last year, we published proposals accurately and impartially. The journey planning engine, to improve road safety in the consultation document, the key mechanism behind the internet site, ensures that “A Safer Way”. That included proposals for new guidance the customer can see the cheapest walk-up fare for the on encouraging more 20 miles per hour zones. times in which they are interested; and the cheapest fare finder facility checks for all the best offers on any Mr. Sheerman: Does my hon. Friend agree that we particular route. We are working with Passenger Focus are perhaps becoming a little complacent about the and National Rail Enquiries to improve the quality of number of deaths on two-wheeled vehicles? I checked information so that it shows general explanations of the figures recently: in two years, deaths among ticket validities—in other words, when off-peak and motorcyclists equal the number lost in our armed services super off-peak fares are valid. on active service in 40 years. The widow-makers and orphan-makers are the people who drive such vehicles Topical Questions and are killed. That is disgraceful in a civilised society. T1. [322768] Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) Paul Clark: My hon. Friend makes an important (LD): If he will make a statement on his departmental point about the number of people who die or are responsibilities. seriously injured on our roads, but I am pleased that all those involved in road safety have been able to achieve The Minister of State, Department for Transport substantial reductions in the number of deaths and (Mr. Sadiq Khan): Since our last Question Time in serious injuries among both cyclists and motorcyclists. January, my Department has announced high-speed However, we recognise that there is further work still to rail proposals to revolutionise travel between our major do, and we will continue to take that forward in the new cities, with trains running up to 250 mph; announced road safety strategy. planned investment of more than £800 million in a package of local major schemes throughout the UK; Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Often, it is the and outlined new proposals to improve bus travel and drivers of four-wheeled vehicles who cause the harm. tackle antisocial behaviour, including a ban on alcohol But, what steps is the Minister taking to try to consumption. stop ordinary pedal cyclists going through red lights, cycling the wrong way and endangering pedestrians— Dr. Harris: Chiltern Railways’ proposed new rail [Interruption.] route from Oxford to London Marylebone via Bicester is welcome, but there are concerns among residents of Paul Clark: I will not mention the Mayor of London; north Oxford about frequent and, because of their that would not be right. I will say, however, that the speed, noisier trains passing their houses. First, does the hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Everyone Minister agree that mitigation is the key issue for those who uses the road, whether they are cyclists, drivers of residents? Secondly, given that his noble Friend the four-wheeled vehicles, lorry drivers, bus drivers or Secretary of State was willing to meet me last year to pedestrians, needs to respect the rules of the road and discuss the issue, will the Minister ask him if he would operate accordingly. I agree entirely. be willing to meet us again to discuss mitigation? Mr. Khan: The announcement of the £262 million Rail Ticket Information Chiltern Railways Evergreen 3 project has some downsides, and on behalf of my right hon. and noble Friend I am 13. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/ happy to make a commitment for him to meet the hon. Co-op): If he will take steps to ensure that members of Gentleman in the next few weeks. If, for some reason, the public have access to accurate information on rail my noble Friend cannot meet him, I shall ensure that fares to enable them to decide which tickets to either I or one of our ministerial colleagues is able to do purchase. [322764] just that.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): In answer (Chris Mole): We require National Rail Enquiries and to an earlier question, the Under-Secretary of State for train operators running ticket offices to provide to the Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich public accurate and impartial information on timetables, (Chris Mole), spoke about the improved information train running and fares. Both do so with a high degree for passengers about the best fares that are available to of accuracy—98.4 per cent. and 99.3 per cent. respectively them. Does he not agree, however, that providing the in the most recent tests to check the accuracy of responses. best possible fare ought to be an absolute obligation on 963 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 964 train operating companies and a condition of their of State has looked at some of these issues, and there franchise, in order to ensure that passengers always get are concerns about energy usage, but I am happy to the best and lowest fare available? discuss them with my hon. Friend offline.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport T4. [322771] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): A (Chris Mole): We continue to work seamlessly with comparatively small number of properties will be Passenger Focus on that issue so that we can improve immediately and totally blighted by the high-speed rail the information available to passengers, to ensure that link. Will the Minister ensure that officials get in touch they get the best possible fare. On the specific point with those householders—because they must know about whether it is possible to include such provision as where they are—to ensure that they understand the a franchise requirement, perhaps my hon. Friend would exceptional hardship scheme, and that there is some like to respond to our current consultation on future communication between them and those who are franchising. running this project? It was quite a shock for them last week suddenly to discover that their properties may T2. [322769] Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): As a well disappear. Can the Minister take action to ensure keen motorist and member of the Institute of that they are properly informed? Advanced Motorists, I consider that to travel by car is a first-class experience—until one comes across an army Mr. Khan: The hon. Gentleman raises a really good of cones, marching for many motorway miles and point. Only about 600 properties along the line are restricting lanes, without contractors undertaking any affected, so why cannot we contact them and let them work. What sanction does the Department have to know, in case they have not heard the news by listening ensure that heavily taxed motorists are given more to the radio, watching TV or reading the papers? Let me consideration? go away and look into that, and get back to him if there is a reason why it cannot be done. Chris Mole: I hope that the hon. Lady is not suggesting that we bring back John Major’s cones hotline. I seem T8. [322775] Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): to recall reading recently that last time a journalist rang Will the Minister take some time in the next few days to that number he was told that there was no one there any contact Network Rail to ask it why it is continuing more. The hon. Lady should appreciate that there are a to pursue the policy of making redundant a number number of reasons why the perception might be that of safety workers and maintenance workers, thus there are cones without works going on: for example, damaging the professional basis of the railway system when materials are hardening—[Interruption.] I would in this country—and also, many people believe, have thought that the hon. Lady was capable of compromising the safety of the existing system? understanding some basic civil engineering principles. Materials such as concrete take some time to dry, and it Chris Mole: The Office of the Rail Regulator, as the is not a very good idea to drive cars on it while that is economic and safety regulator for our railways, has happening. challenged Network Rail to address, over the next control period, the disparity in the effectiveness and efficiency with which it delivers maintenance and network upgrades Mr. Speaker: Order. It is good that the House is in a in comparison with similar infrastructure operators good mood, but we need to make rather better progress. elsewhere in Europe. Network Rail is seeking to minimise In addition to asking for short questions, may I say very the number of compulsory redundancies, but there are gently to those on the Treasury Bench that there is no positive opportunities for some of those employees to rule against single-sentence answers? find other jobs on big projects such as the upgrades to Reading station and Thameslink over the coming years. Mr. David Clelland (Tyne Bridge) (Lab): The excellent news that Nissan in Sunderland is to produce the first T5. [322772] Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): generation of electric cars is further evidence that the Will the roads Minister give a less dismissive reply north-east is a region with a future, which deserves to be to the legitimate point raised by my hon. Friend the an integral part of any high-speed rail network. Has the Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) about the Minister seen the report from UK Ultraspeed, in response proliferation of road works, speed restrictions and to the High Speed 2 report, which shows that Maglev cones on motorways, which causes intense frustration could produce a faster, greener, quieter and more cost- to the travelling public purely for the convenience of effective answer to the high-speed rail question? Instead the operators? He is getting a reputation for avoiding of taking small steps to catch up with— responsibility for real problems. Can he now rise to the occasion and give a real answer to a real problem? Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that this is coming to an Chris Mole: The Highways Agency takes significant [Interruption.] end. I understand that it is Question steps to minimise the time that road works take, and has Time, of course, but I had just made the point that we positive incentives in place for its contractors to ensure need short questions, and I think that we have got the that their road works can be completed in advance of thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s question now. the necessary length of time, if possible. Mr. Khan: I thank my hon. Friend for reminding the Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I thank the Minister House that one of the benefits of a Government committed for the investment in level access at Slough railway to investing in our country is that we invest in businesses station. Will he look closely at the detail of the proposed in its regions as well. I am happy to look at that scheme, to ensure that giving access to disabled people alternative proposal. My right hon. Friend the Secretary does not add to the congestion problems at the station? 965 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 966

Chris Mole: The access programme for three stations Mr. Khan: For almost the first time in history, I agree in London will enable people to have much better access with almost everything that the hon. Gentleman has to the Olympics in 2012, but I am happy to discuss with said. He is right that it is really important for us to my hon. Friend any detailed concerns that she has. understand the challenges that face those who live in rural parts of the country. It is great for them to have a T6. [322773] Simon Hughes (North Southwark and bus service that the Government have subsidised in Bermondsey) (LD): Can Ministers reassure people, not record amounts, but if the bus comes once an hour, or just in London but elsewhere, that they, as well as other once a day, the car is the only other form of transport, Government Departments, are taking a direct interest and we need to be sensitive to that. in the British Airways dispute? Can they provide an assurance that they will put pressure on to secure a Several hon. Members rose— dispute reconciliation within hours, not days or weeks? Mr. Speaker: Order. I am afraid that all good things Mr. Khan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, come to an end. and for the way in which he asked it. He is clearly interested in finding a resolution to the dispute, rather than raising the stakes for the sake of party political gain. Ministers continue to have dialogues with all sides WOMEN AND EQUALITY to try to reach a resolution. Thousands of passengers will clearly be inconvenienced if the strike goes ahead, and I am keen to ensure that we do all we can to resolve The Minister for Women and Equality was asked— the dispute. Equality and Human Rights Commission Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): Why are Ministers happy for the German state railway, Deutsche Bahn, 1. Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) which is not subject to takeover, to make a bid for (Con): What recent representations she has received on Arriva trains, which operates services up and down the the recommendations in the Fifteenth Report from the country, but not for a British state-owned company, Committee of Public Accounts, on the Equality and East Coast, to make a bid to continue to run services on Human Rights Commission, HC 124. [322776] the east coast main line? 2. Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): What Mr. Khan: My hon. Friend will know that it is not for recent representations she has received on the me to comment on speculation in the financial pages of recommendations in the Fifteenth Report from the the newspapers, and it would be unwise for me to do so. Committee of Public Accounts, on the Equality and Human Rights Commission, HC 124. [322777] T7. [322774] Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): I welcome the consensus across the House on the need 4. Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What for high-speed rail, but can the Minister assure me recent representations she has received on the that his Department and Network Rail will both recommendations in the Fifteenth Report from the remain focused on vital local rail projects such as Committee of Public Accounts, on the Equality and Worcestershire Parkway in my constituency? Human Rights Commission, HC 124. [322779]

Mr. Khan: The hon. Gentleman is right to remind us The Minister for Women and Equality (Ms Harriet that we need to focus on the bread-and-butter issues, Harman): Since the report was published on 4 March and there is more chance of that happening with the I have not received any representations about its Labour party in government, because investment in recommendations. The Government’s response to the public transport will continue. report will be set out in due course, in the way that the Government respond to reports by the Public Accounts Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): What assessment Committee, which is through a Treasury minute. has my right hon. Friend made of the role that freight could play in the new high-speed rail network? Mr. Goodwill: The Committee revealed that several staff members of the legacy commissions left through Mr. Khan: My hon. Friend raises a really important an early exit scheme, and were subsequently rehired by issue. One of the advantages of High Speed 2 is that it the new commission at a cost of £338,708. Does the will release capacity on the conventional lines, which Minister agree that that represents a shocking waste of can be used to move local commuters and freight much taxpayers’ hard-earned money? more than they currently are. That will be good for the environment, businesses and UK plc. Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman, and the House, will know that there is a system for monitoring the Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Do the finances of non-departmental public bodies. They are Government accept that in my constituency there are subject to the scrutiny of accounting officers, and there many rural areas where there is minimal public transport is a framework to ensure that public money is properly or none at all, so the car, or another vehicle, is essential spent and everything is kept in order. We are concerned to people’s ability to maintain an acceptable quality of for two reasons. First, we want to ensure that every life? Will Ministers make representations to the Chancellor pound of public money that comes from taxpayers is of the Exchequer to recognise the problems of motoring properly spent, wherever in the public sector it is spent. in rural areas? We are also concerned to ensure that the Equality and 967 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 968

Human Rights Commission works well, because we—unlike the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon his good self, no doubt, and many Opposition Members, (Dr. Harris), who asked the question, from this, because unfortunately—are concerned about equality. I accept his good faith—interested in discrimination against people on the ground of age, discrimination Richard Ottaway: Following on from the earlier point, against agency workers, and discrimination against women is the Minister aware that the transition team, comprising in the financial services sector? Members from the 83 people employed over an 18-month period, received official Opposition are having a go at the commission as on average £100,000 each? Does she think that that was a proxy for the fact that they do not like the onward good value for money? march of equality.

Ms Harman: As I have said, there are proper frameworks Lynne Featherstone (Hornsey and Wood Green) (LD): for arranging for non-departmental public bodies to This is an apposite moment to come into this debate, spend money, which they do independently. They are because my charge is that the EHRC is not doing the not Government Departments and are subject to a work that it should be doing. Does the Minister agree framework, and to scrutiny and accountability. Obviously, that it should spend less time pontificating on what we want to make sure that they spend all that money organisations should and should not do, and far more wisely, but individual payments are the responsibility of time using its powers and legal challenges to hold accounting officers and the chief executive, not my businesses and public bodies to account, and on enforcing responsibility as Minister for Women and Equality— the legislation that already exists, which it is not doing although obviously, we are concerned to ensure that to any great degree? every pound of public money is properly spent, and that the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Ms Harman: The commission is making sure that it which is an important organisation, does its job properly. plays its part in enforcing existing legislation, and works with us to help to shape future legislation. It is also Mr. Hollobone: That framework and accountability making sure that it looks at all the places where inequality mechanism seems to have broken down, because in July exists, works with all the organisations—business, trade 2009 the commission itself found that it was employing unions and voluntary organisations—and helps individuals. some 574 full-time equivalent staff when it was authorised I know that the hon. Lady shares my concern that to employ only 525. Is not that another shocking waste where there is inequality, it needs to be tackled. The of public money? Equality and Human Rights Commission is an important part of the process for making that happen. Ms Harman: Where there have been concerns they have been pointed out, and the commission has taken Domestic Violence steps to address them. That is part of the process of transparency: where public money is being spent, there 3. Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): What steps are is scrutiny to make sure that it is being spent in the right being taken to reduce the incidence of domestic way, in order to meet the important public policy objective violence against women. [322778] of pursuing equality. That is what is happening. The Minister of State, Government Equalities Office Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): (Maria Eagle): Due to the introduction of specialist The Joint Committee on Human Rights, of which I am domestic violence courts, better multi-agency arrangements a member, also reported on the Equality and Human to focus on prolific perpetrators and better support for Rights Commission. It asked the Minister why she victims and families, there has been a 64 per cent. reappointed the chairman of that body without putting reduction in the incidence of domestic violence between the appointment out to open competition. How is that 1997 and 2008-09, as measured by the British crime transparent and accountable? survey. An extra £5 million will be invested in 2010-11 to support multi-agency risk assessment conferences Ms Harman: As I said to the Joint Committee on and independent domestic violence advisers. Human Rights when it called me in to give evidence, the chief executive of the Equality and Human Rights Hugh Bayley: The number of cases of domestic violence Commission had left her post. Especially because the reported to the police in Selby and York in the last year Equality Bill was going through the House of Commons increased by 26 per cent., which shows the importance and the House of Lords, I felt that we needed continuity of establishing specialist domestic violence police services. of leadership, and therefore that it was right to reappoint But more reports mean more victims and children who the chair and vice-chair. Obviously, we were then going need support. What are the Government doing to increase to need to find new commissioners and a new chief the funding for independent domestic abuse services executive, but we did not want a wholesale change of and to ensure the prosecution of the perpetrators of personnel in this important organisation at a critical time. this crime? Hon. Members should look at the substance of the work that has been done by the commission. They Maria Eagle: We welcome increased reporting. I can should look at the important inquiry into sex discrimination tell my hon. Friend that there were 67,000 prosecutions in the financial sector; the important legal challenge to in 2008-09, increasing from 50,000 in 2005-06. The the apartheid constitution of the British National party; conviction rate also increased from 46 per cent. of those the work on the unfairness to agency workers in the charged in 2003-04 to 72 per cent. in 2008-09. That is meat packing industry; and the important evidence the why domestic violence crime is falling. We are putting commission gave on the question of the default retirement more focus on it, there are more prosecutions, the age. The question is this: are hon. Members—I exclude conviction rate is up and the incidence is down. There is 969 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 970 more help for victims, and the courts, the police, the local people to come up with their own solutions. The Crown Prosecution Service and all authorities are better more Ministers work together, the more they are likely able to understand this crime and to do the job. That is to come up with a solution that will work locally. not to say that more cannot be done; it can, but the focus on the issue has led to the fall in the volume of Mrs. Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): In focusing this crime. on what lies behind domestic violence, the recent report by Dr. Linda Papadopoulos examined the issue of Mrs. Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): There were sexualisation and violence. The evidence given to the worrying findings in last week’s report on the role of the report suggested a clear link between consumption NHS in supporting the victims of domestic violence. of sexualised images, a tendency to view women as Does the Minister agree with the chair of the taskforce objects, and the acceptance of aggressive attitudes and that too little has been done by the NHS so far in this behaviour as the norm. We believe that we should ban area? the most manipulative marketing techniques aimed at young people, and stop irresponsible companies from Maria Eagle: No. It is important to realise that many winning future Government contracts. Do the Government of our public services have not in the past focused on agree? the impact of this crime as much as we would like them to do, or as much as they are now doing. We welcome that increase in focus from the NHS and from other Maria Eagle: A late convert to effective action is public services. It is only when all public services, working better than no convert at all. We would certainly welcome together, focus on the needs of the victims and of support from any party in the House, across party children in families in which domestic violence is perpetrated politics, in ensuring that the equality agenda is moved that we see increased reporting, better conviction rates, forward and that young girls can have the same protection and a better result and outcome for all of us. and the same likelihood of doing well in society as young boys. Several hon. Members rose— Police Stop and Search Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like other colleagues to be able to get in too, so I need short questions and 6. Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): What discussions answers. she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on use by police of stop-and-search Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): As well as using a powers in relation to black and Asian youths. [322781] criminal justice response to reduce domestic violence— which is working—how are we trying to prevent future The Minister of State, Government Equalities Office domestic violence by educating young people about the (Maria Eagle): The Minister for Women and Equality unacceptability of violence in the home? has had no direct discussions with the Home Secretary on this issue. The Government are committed to delivering Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is right to identify that a policing service, and a wider criminal justice system, as an important point for the future. We are making that promote equality and do not discriminate against personal, social and health education statutory in schools, anyone on the grounds of their race. The National and domestic violence will be part of that curriculum. Policing Improvement Agency is working to reduce We are also making it easier for children who are unjustified disproportionality in stop and search by affected by this in their families to be listened to police forces. Tackling that will increase community independently, by giving greater support to the listening confidence in stop and search as a useful tool with services provided by the National Society for the Prevention which police can keep the community safe. of Cruelty to Children. We hope that that will have a real impact. Keith Vaz: Will the Minister join me in welcoming Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): the report by the Equality and Human Rights Incidents of violence against women in Northern Ireland Commission? We have heard some comments about the have been increasing in recent years. Will the Minister commission, but here is a very good report into the problems join me in expressing the hope and expectation that as with stop and search. We cannot go on with this policing and justice powers move from this House to disproportionality. What are we going to do about it? the Northern Ireland Assembly next month, this issue will be a matter of priority for the incoming justice Maria Eagle: I join my right hon. Friend in welcoming Minister? the EHRC report on the disproportionality of stop-and- search powers and their use by police forces. It shows Maria Eagle: I welcome the further devolution of that people are six times more likely to be stopped and powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly; the hon. searched if they are black, and twice as likely if they Gentleman will be aware that I have had a particular are Asian, and that there are inexplicable differences interest in that myself in the past. I hope that the move between different police forces and persistent ratios will lead to Ministers with responsibility for health and across time in particular areas. It is important that other areas of public service working together with the police forces look carefully at how they use their powers, new policing and justice Minister in Northern Ireland and that they use them to protect the public rather than to find relevant local solutions to such problems to inadvertently to undermine the confidence of the public. achieve the greatest impact on domestic violence in the The work of the NPIA will be key to ensuring that that area. We do not want just to export solutions; it is for happens. 971 Oral Answers18 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 972

Access to Information (People with Disabilities) Alun Michael: I welcome that amendment, and the commitment of Ministers. Will my hon. Friend ensure 7. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/ that this matter is understood and driven ahead at every Co-op): What recent discussions she has had with the level, and in every Department and Government agency, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on equality as a matter of urgency? of access to information for blind, partially sighted and print-disabled people. [322783] The Parliamentary Secretary, Government Equalities Michael Jabez Foster: Indeed. My right hon. and Office (Michael Jabez Foster): We have regular discussions learned Friend the Minister for Women and Equality is with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Work already on the job. The Government Equalities Office and Pensions, which sponsors the Disability Discrimination is also ensuring that other Departments are fully aware Act 2005, which requires employers, service providers of the provisions in the Bill, and advice will be updated and bodies delivering functions to make reasonable as those provisions come into force. I believe that there adjustments. That duty is a cornerstone of the protection is also a role for Members of the House to be vigilant in for disabled people and has been carried forward into ensuring that within their own localities the equality the Equality Bill, which was amended on Report in the message is clear and understood. I know that my other place to make more explicit the application of right hon. and learned Friend will be at the forefront in that duty in respect of disabled people who experience achieving that. information disadvantage. 973 18 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 974

Business of the House Was this a question of her loyalty overcoming her judgment? Will she now accept her error and, unlike the Prime Minister, will she now apologise to the House? 11.33 am On the forthcoming business, what has happened to Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): the traditional Easter Adjournment debate? Its absence Will the Leader of the House give us the business for denies Back Benchers their traditional right to raise next week? issues of concern on behalf of their constituents. Has it been abandoned because the Prime Minister wanted to The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet avoid sitting on the Wednesday and facing another bad Harman): The business for next week will be: day at Question Time? MONDAY 22 MARCH—Motions to approve three statutory Will the right hon. and learned Lady give the House instruments relating to Northern Ireland devolution, her assurance that all written parliamentary questions followed by consideration of Lords amendments to the will be answered before Dissolution? I know that she Child Poverty Bill. will particularly wish to impress this point on her Treasury TUESDAY 23 MARCH—Consideration in Committee colleagues, who have a number of outstanding questions and remaining stages of the Cluster Munitions from hon. Members. (Prohibitions) Bill [Lords], followed by remaining stages Where are the Standing Orders that will implement of the Third Parties (Rights Against Insurers) Bill [Lords]. the resolutions on the Wright report on reform of the WEDNESDAY 24 MARCH—My right hon. Friend the Commons? Last week, the right hon. and learned Lady Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget said that drafts would be circulated to everyone who statement. had shown an interest in this issue. I hope that that includes me, but nothing has yet arrived. It would be a THURSDAY 25 MARCH—Continuation of the Budget great shame if the progress that the House has made debate. were to be undone by yet more dithering by the Government FRIDAY 26 MARCH—The House will not be sitting. at the last minute. The provisional business for the week commencing May we have a debate on the Government’s policy for 29 March will include: tackling so-called legal highs? The tragic death of the two boys who took mephedrone has heightened the MONDAY 29 MARCH—Continuation of the Budget need for us to react more quickly to the ease with which debate. existing narcotics can be reconstituted to form legal TUESDAY 30 MARCH—Conclusion of the Budget debate. substances. Does the right hon. and learned Lady agree I should also like to inform the House that the with our view that we should be able to ban such drugs business in Westminster Hall for 25 March will be: temporarily until there is a proper assessment of the risks that they present, and then ban permanently those THURSDAY 25 MARCH—A debate on police community that are dangerous? support officers. May we have an urgent statement on the release of Colleagues will also wish to know that subject to the Government statistics? Yesterday, the YouthJustice Board progress of business, the House will rise for the Easter revealed that figures on the number of crimes committed recess at the end of business on Tuesday 30 March and by under-18s would not be published until the autumn, will return on Tuesday 6 April. six months after the normal publication date. The Mr. Speaker, you have paid your own tribute to Government have claimed that the delay is due to the Ashok Kumar, and I want to say a few words about him official pre-election period, but that is total nonsense, and pay my tribute as well. He was exceptional. He was since that takes effect only once the election has been a scientist who dedicated himself to the people and called. What have the Government got to hide? industries of Teesside. He was of Indian origin, and he May we have a debate on today’s report from the represented the people of Teesside as their councillor, National Audit Office on Whitehall reorganisation? and then their MP, for 25 years. He was totally committed The NAO has discovered that, between 2005 and 2009, and hard-working, and we were proud to have him as a the Government spent more than £1 billion on changing colleague in the parliamentary Labour party. We will the structure of Departments and agencies. Many of miss him, and our thoughts are very much with his the moves do not seem to justify the expenditure; one family. name change lasted just five weeks. Lord Mandelson’s Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has Sir George Young: I thank the right hon. and learned been reinvented three times since 2005, and those changes Lady for giving us the forthcoming business. May I join appear to have been motivated more by a need to her in paying tribute to Ashok Kumar? He was a calm, massage his giant ministerial ego than by good governance. courteous and decent man, but he was also an energetic Finally, will Ministers keep the House in the picture champion for his constituents. He brought to Parliament on the British Airways dispute? Can the right hon. and an expertise in science that helped to enrich our proceedings, learned Lady confirm that Ministers who are booked and the House will miss him. on flights during the period of the strike will fly with Last week, I challenged the right hon. and learned BA, if the flights are available? Does she also recognise Lady about the statement that the Prime Minister had that she might have some influence over the industrial made in the House and to the Chilcot inquiry that action? Given that she is—we hope—closer to Unite’s defence spending had risen every year. She strongly deputy general secretary than the Prime Minister is to refuted my assertion that he was wrong, but yesterday, Unite’s political secretary, does she think that there is she was holed below the waterline by the Prime Minister. anything she can do to help? 975 Business of the House18 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 976

Ms Harman: In answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s As for the British Airways dispute, we have just had first point, those issues can be raised in the Budget Transport questions, and the right hon. Gentleman will debate. [Interruption.] I am sorry to say that my notes have heard the Minister of State, Department for Transport have failed me, because, although I know that the talking about it. I am not aware of anybody asking the answer is to raise the issues in the Budget debate, I Transport Minister about ministerial air travel, but cannot remember what the point was. obviously he is the person to whom that question should have been put. We hope that there will be a settlement of Sir George Young: An apology. the dispute, for the sake of those seeking to travel on Ms Harman: No; that was the second point, and the British Airways and those who work in the company. answer to that is that the Prime Minister gave evidence to the Chilcot inquiry and answered questions at Prime Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I, too, Minister’s questions. That stands in stark contrast to add my tributes to Ashok Kumar, who will indeed be the shadow Foreign Secretary, who is refusing to appear missed by the House. before the Public Administration Committee. The Prime I am not sure that the Leader of the House can quite Minister has been completely open and clear, and he so easily shrug aside the accusation from the NAO that has answered from the Dispatch Box. He has given the £780 million has been wasted—not invested, but information, and therefore the issue does not need to be wasted—on fiddling around with Departments and public raised in the Budget debate. However, there are questions bodies, mainly through what amounts to a refined form that need to be answered, and although the shadow of vanity publishing, so I hope that we will return to Foreign Secretary—the right hon. Gentleman’s shadow that issue. Cabinet colleague—is prepared to go on the “Today” programme, he is not prepared to show respect to this Let me ask the Leader of the House about the House’s system of Select Committees by answering Standing Order changes. She has complained several their questions. times over recent weeks that a cloud of suspicion hangs over her whenever she talks about the issue, but she has The shadow Leader of the House asked me about not allayed that suspicion by providing us with the text progress on the Wright Committee proposals. He has of the Standing Order changes. She has not put her stressed at length—in many cases quite justifiably—the name to the suggestions of the Wright Committee, and importance of the Select Committee system. He need no time has been set aside to debate the motion. She not worry about progress being made on the proposals may assume that it will go through on the nod, but I that we shall be going forward with. We need to complete think that some anonymous Member will say “Object”. the process of placing before the House for its approval The House rose early last Thursday, on Monday and on the Standing Orders that would give effect to the resolutions Wednesday, and I suspect that it will do so again today. of the House, and they will indeed be brought forward. It is not difficult to find an hour and a half. Why are we However, it comes ill from the right hon. Gentleman to waiting? talk about the importance of Select Committees, when one of his shadow Cabinet Colleagues is showing contempt May I draw the attention of the Leader of the House for a Select Committee of this House by refusing to to Friday 26 March? Some excellent private Members’ appear before it. Bills have been tabled for that day: the Water Tariffs As for mephedrone and the tragic deaths of young Bill, the School Admissions Bill, the Live Music Bill people from taking that drug, the House will be aware [Lords], the Contaminated Blood (Support for Infected that changing chemical substances are being manufactured. and Bereaved Persons) Bill [Lords], and the Council Tax They are extremely dangerous, and young people ought Benefit (Change of Name) Bill. Not one of those excellent to be aware that they should not be taking them, measures will be debated, however, because the House because they could put their health and even their lives will not be sitting on Friday 26 March. Does the Leader at stake. Obviously the Government can draw on the of the House now regret that she did not provide more important scientific advice on these changing chemical time for private Members’ Bills? compounds from the Advisory Council on the Misuse I consider two private Members’ Bills to be particularly of Drugs, but the most important thing right now is for important. One is the Debt Relief (Developing Countries) young people to have the important warning that they Bill, tabled by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish should not be taking such substances, because they are (Andrew Gwynne), which deals with “vulture funds”. extremely dangerous. Surely, given that the House is almost united in its The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of Government support for that Bill, the Government have a duty to statistics on crime. I am surprised by that, given the find time for it to be debated, and not to allow it to be shadow Home Secretary’s wanton distortion of statistics derailed by the anonymous hon. Member for Christchurch. in order to try to conceal the fact that crime has come The other Bill is the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 down. We shall continue to produce Government statistics (Amendment) Bill, tabled by the hon. Member for in the normal way, and we will continue as Ministers to North-East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt). That too is an draw attention to the fact that crime has fallen as a excellent Bill, and the House wants it to be passed. Will result of good work by the police, which we need to the Leader of the House find time for that to happen? continue to improve on. Will she also tell us when the Digital Economy Bill will The right hon. Gentleman talked about the machinery finally be given a Second Reading? of government changes. He will know that Departments Finally, may I return to the subject of the Prime have to be changed to keep abreast of changing times. Minister’s “almost apology” yesterday? He admitted That is an important prime ministerial duty and that he was wrong, but he could not quite bring himself responsibility, although most of the expenditure was to apologise to the House for having been wrong. Perhaps incurred not in making departmental changes, but in an innovation could be introduced in the new Parliament: relation to non-departmental public bodies. perhaps, as well as Prime Minister’s questions, we could 977 Business of the House18 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 978

[Mr. David Heath] that Bill as well, and, again, there is a great deal of support for it across the House. If the Opposition cease have “Prime Minister’s errors and omissions”. It would their opposition to it, as a private Member’s Bill it can be quite a long session, but it would enable the Prime make progress. The question therefore is: will the Opposition Minister to apologise for those errors and omissions. In let these important measures go through? They have to a spirit of equity—to make it absolutely fair—an equal go through not only this House, but the other House. amount of time could perhaps be allotted to the Leader This is a question of Opposition support. of the Opposition, so that he can apologise for his Finally, on the Digital Economy Bill, I will announce errors and omissions as well. further business in due course.

Ms Harman: Once again, the hon. Gentleman has Mr. Speaker: Order. At least 27 Members are seeking sought to generate a cloud of suspicion over the progress to catch my eye. As usual, I would like to accommodate of the Wright Committee proposals. Let me remind everybody, but in order to have a chance of doing so, him, by way of reassurance, that when my hon. Friend brief questions and brief answers are required. the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) suggested that a Committee on Reform of the House of Commons Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): be established, I immediately took up the offer and the Will my right hon. and learned Friend be more precise Prime Minister immediately backed the proposal. I in respect of the Debt Relief (Developing Countries) presented the motion to the House, so that it could Bill? As she knows, it was introduced by two Labour approve the establishment of the Committee, and it was Members and has very broad support in the country, set up with the House’s approval. It then reported, and I and senior Treasury Ministers have told me that they gave the House an opportunity to make substantive are willing to adopt it as a Government Bill. That being decisions on its proposals. On each occasion it has been so, will my right hon. and learned Friend make it a suggested that the next step will not be taken and that Government Bill and introduce it next week, following process will be obstructed, but it has not been obstructed. precedents such as those set when Richard Crossman Indeed, progress has been made, and we are approaching was Leader of the House, in order to make sure that, the final step. despite the wrecking tactics of the Tory Member about The hon. Gentleman suggested that when we present whom we have heard, the Bill can get to the House of the Standing Orders that give effect to the resolutions of Lords and become law before the Dissolution of this the House, hon. Members might block them. I hope Parliament? and expect that that will not happen, because the House has resolved the matter, and it would not be right for Ms Harman: I welcome my right hon. Friend’s strong hon. Members who do not agree with the resolutions of support for the Bill. The position is as follows: if the the House and who lost the vote to seek to obstruct the Opposition agree to support its making further progress, will of the House by objecting to the Standing Orders it will be able to do so not only in this House, but in the that would give effect to them. If they do that, however, House of Lords. It is down to the Opposition; they are we shall have plan B. on the spot on this, and they should be prepared to The hon. Gentleman can be reassured that it is my support the Bill. responsibility to ensure that the will of the House is given effect. Having resolved those issues, the House Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): Given that will have an opportunity to approve the Standing Orders the Prime Minister has admitted that he misled the that give effect to its resolutions. The hon. Gentleman country over defence spending and has been accused by clearly has “trust issues”—he finds it hard to trust defence chiefs of being disingenuous, will the Leader of people; it must be something to do with his personal the House at least consider having a debate on the background. However, I say to him, “Rest assured, it Prime Minister’s honesty and financial competence? actually will happen.” Ms Harman: The Prime Minister answered questions As for private Members’ Bills, I agree with the hon. on this at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday. Gentleman about the Debt Relief (Developing Countries) Bill. The Government strongly support the Bill. It would Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, limit the activities of what are described as “vulture East) (Lab): Will my right hon. and learned Friend try funds”, which seek to profit unfairly from the defaulted to find time for a debate on the announcement earlier debts of heavily indebted poor countries. There is a this month by the Secretary of State for Children, great deal of support for the Bill throughout the House. Schools and Families of a £30 billion capital investment We were led to believe that the Opposition would support programme in our schools? That would give me an it as well, so it was extremely disappointing that they opportunity to discuss the £430 million invested in objected to it on Third Reading. That was particularly secondary schools in Knowsley, the £44 million that is concerning, because it appears that it was objected to going into primary schools, and Sefton council’s ambitious by the Chair of the Public Bill Committee that had programme for investment in schools. Also, can my considered it; by convention, he would have been expected right hon. and learned Friend envisage any circumstances to have remained neutral. I am very concerned about in which those sums might be put in jeopardy? that. This private Member’s Bill has the strong support of the Government, and if it has the support of the Ms Harman: That is important investment in each Opposition it will make progress. and every child’s education and future opportunities. It Points were also made about the Sustainable is important for the economy of this country, too. Now Communities Bill, which would amend the Sustainable that the economy is beginning to recover and unemployment Communities Act 2007. The Government strongly support is beginning to come down, the last thing that we 979 Business of the House18 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 980 should do is jeopardise the recovery by pulling support reform. If the House were asked to consider this in the away from the economy. I assure my right hon. Friend wash-up, the law of unintended consequences might that this investment in education will go ahead, and that kick in. I know that all three Front Benchers are in we will continue to support the economy and education. favour of these measures, but may I just gently warn them all that it would be very electorally unpopular if Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): As we were to go down this route? the Remembrance Sunday (Closure of Shops) Bill had widespread support both in the House and the country, Ms Harman: I know that my hon. Friend is a great and as the right hon. and learned Lady’s office kindly expert on these matters and understands how important informed me that a money resolution would be tabled this Bill is for the future. We obviously need to make after Second Reading, why did a Government Whip sure it has proper scrutiny before it passes into legislation, prevent it from having a Second Reading last Friday? and I shall make a further business statement when the House returns after the recess. Ms Harman: I will look into that and get back to the Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): hon. Gentleman. If he had given me advance notice of May we have a debate on the detention of asylum his question, I might have been able to be more forthcoming, seekers, with particular reference to the Dungavel detention but I will let him know by the end of today. centre? I and many other people are concerned about the atmosphere among detainees there, and especially Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): The about the removal last Friday of the Baptist pastor Warm Front programme has benefited thousands of from Guinea, Seth Ganley, after he was deemed to have my constituents, but unfortunately my office is spending led peaceful protests about the conditions in Dungavel. more and more time trying to resolve disputes between Eaga and its subcontractors. One constituent of mine, Ms Harman: I will raise those points with the relevant Mr. Anthony Coote, has not been able to live in his Minister. house at all for many months now. Another constituent, Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): The Leader Ken Watton, came out of hospital recently; he is 84 years of the House has referred to the shadow Foreign Secretary’s of age, and he is living in appalling conditions. Please refusal to appear before a Select Committee despite can we have a debate so that we can find out whether my being prepared to answer questions on BBC radio. office is unusual in this respect or whether other Members’ Does she agree that we need to have an urgent debate constituents are suffering as well? about the powers of Select Committees to summon Members before them to answer legitimate questions— Ms Harman: I will bring this to the attention of particularly questions about their knowledge of the Department of Energy and Climate Change Ministers. circumstances surrounding the appointment of a Member I am sure they will want to be certain that the very of the House of Lords? Does she also agree that it is a important Warm Front programme is being carried out gross discourtesy to this House for a Member to fail to effectively and efficiently. appear before a Select Committee? Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Given that the Ms Harman: I think that my hon. Friend is absolutely Government are cutting university budgets, may we right, but I also believe that Select Committees should have an urgent debate on foreign funding of British not need a power to compel Members of this House to universities? How confident is the Leader of the House appear before them. Select Committees are Committees that the backers who are behind this foreign investment of this House, and all Members of this House ought to are not promoting anti-Britishness and anti-western be prepared to comply with their requests. A flagrant views? contempt for the Select Committee in question has been shown, and there can be only one explanation for that: Ms Harman: We have ensured that over the period we the shadow Foreign Secretary is afraid to answer questions have been in government there has been a 25 per cent. about when he knew Lord Ashcroft was not paying tens real-terms increase in investment in universities and of millions of pounds in tax despite the fact that he was higher education, which has resulted in 24 per cent. paying millions of pounds to the Conservative party. more students. I have certainly seen that in my own There is a connection between these two things. The constituency, where there has been a big increase in the shadow Foreign Secretary is not prepared to appear number of young people going into further and higher before a Select Committee of this House because he is education. I will look into the hon. Gentleman’s specific not prepared to acknowledge that he knew that Lord point and respond to him on it, but so far as foreign Ashcroft was a non-dom but kept quiet because he money is concerned, we and the Public Administration wanted to carry on taking the money. Committee still need some answers about Lord Ashcroft’s Mr. Speaker: Order. The question has been asked and donation to the Conservative party, because he has the point has been made very strongly, but I do think managed to avoid, according to the Liberal Democrats’ that we should not have any further focus on what really estimate, more than £100 million in tax. That should be is a criticism of a Member of the House who is not going into the public purse, not into the Tory party present today, in relation to a matter about which I do coffers. not think a business question has been asked. Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): I Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): The Prime Minister want to reassure my right hon. and learned Friend that made it clear at the Chilcot inquiry that the military had I do not have any trust issues with her. However, I got all that it wanted and that defence expenditure remain concerned about the Digital Economy Bill, and had risen in real terms year on year. Given that we now in particular the complex technical measures on copyright know that not to be true and that there were cuts, with 981 Business of the House18 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 982

[Mr. John Baron] by some arcane procedure in this House whereby anonymous people can make anonymous objections troops suffering as a result, particularly from a lack of and prevent the will of the House from being carried helicopters, will the Leader of the House make time for out? a statement from the Prime Minister to this House so that he can apologise and explain his actions? That is Ms Harman: I appreciate my hon. Friend’s support the least we can do for our troops in theatre. for the Bill. I share in that support, as do the Government and hon. Members from across the House. He will Ms Harman: The Prime Minister answered this point recognise that we need to make progress on that Bill and at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday. on the “vulture fund” Bill not only in this House, but in the House of Lords. The House of Lords does not have Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will the same timetabling arrangements as this place and we my right hon. and learned Friend try to squeeze in a do not have the same Government majority in the debate in the next few days on how monopolistic House of Lords. This is private Members’ business, not supermarkets squeeze the life out of communities? Could Government business, so in order for progress to be we not have a 5 per cent. tax on supermarkets, with the made the Opposition need to ensure that they will not money dedicated to investment in social enterprise, the block it and will ensure that it can progress. This is third sector and charities in the locality? In that way, really a question for the Opposition: will they withdraw something would be given back by these companies that their opposition so that these Bills can make progress? suck the life out of communities.

Ms Harman: My hon. Friend raises an important Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): When the point, which relates to town centres, monopolies, corporate shadow Leader of the House asked the Leader of the responsibility and the corporate citizenship of the House last week when she was going to table the remaining supermarkets. I shall bring his point to the attention of motions of the Procedure Committee, which were not the relevant Ministers. debated two weeks ago, she failed to give a response, no doubt inadvertently. As these were her motions, and as there is obviously plenty of time, will she explain to the Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): The House when she is going to lay these motions for Prime Minister’s main effort in the substantial preparation voting? that he put in for his evidence to the Chilcot inquiry was to maintain that defence expenditure had increased every year, notwithstanding the evidence that had already Ms Harman: The House had an opportunity to consider been given to that committee. We now know that defence and make decisions on the substantive motions that I expenditure was cut when the nation was fighting two had tabled in response to the Wright Committee’s proposals. wars. Does the Leader of the House really not think I tabled them long in advance of the debate, so that if that to be worth more than just a mention at Prime hon. Members felt that the motions did not cover Minister’s questions or in the Budget debate? Does she certain things in the Wright Committee’s report, they really think that we should not have a statement from were able to amend the motions to add certain issues. the Prime Minister on this very important matter? We then came to the House to debate not only the motions, but the amendments to them. Now, the House Ms Harman: The Prime Minister appeared before the has resolved them and it is a question of putting them Chilcot inquiry and he added to what he had said at into Standing Orders. that inquiry at this Dispatch Box yesterday. That contrasts strongly with the approach of the shadow Foreign Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): Given that the respected Secretary, who is prepared to answer questions on the and noble Lord Whitty has attacked the undue influence radio but is not prepared to answer the questions of a of producer interests, such as the British Phonographic Select Committee of this House. When it comes to Industry and its lobbyists in securing amendments to accountability— the Digital Economy Bill in the other place, would it not be completely unacceptable for this Bill to be rushed Mr. Speaker: Order. May I just say to the Leader of through this place in a few hours in the wash-up? Would the House that I know that this matter has already been it not be far better to drop the controversial clauses covered, but what we cannot have is the situation in regarding web blocking and file sharing, so that a which continuing reference is made to a Member of the future elected House of Commons could consider this House who is not present, and in particular—[Interruption.] matter carefully? Order. Allow me to deal with the matter. That is particularly so when a question on that matter is not being asked. One question had been asked on that matter, but my Ms Harman: Obviously there will need to be further understanding is that there is not currently a question debate in this House. A lively debate is taking place being asked on it, and therefore it is not appropriate for outside the House involving everybody who is interested there to be answers on that subject. in, and concerned about, this Bill, and all those comments are being noted and drawn upon. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I was pleased with what the Leader of the House said about the Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Tension Sustainable Communities Act 2007 (Amendment) Bill. remains high in the south Atlantic because of the Is there any way that she can ensure that special time is hostile and illegal actions of the Argentine regime, made available in the last few days that we have left to which is now seeking to deprive the Falklands fishing ensure that that Bill gets through and is not obstructed fleet of its fuel supplies. Can the Leader of the House 983 Business of the House18 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 984 arrange for a Foreign Office Minister to come to the food; is further alarmed that the loss of woodlands and House to make a statement about the situation in the the neglect of forests and woods has also hit many species, south Atlantic? as has the introduction of alien wildlife; congratulates Natural England on producing the first ever audit of Ms Harman: In respect of the particular point that native wildlife; acknowledges that urbanisation has also the hon. Gentleman raises about the Falklands, I will been a major contributory factor in the decline in England’s ask the relevant Foreign Office Minister to write to him wildlife habitat; and calls on the Government to lead a and place a copy of the letter in the House of Commons national campaign, based on Natural England’s dire warnings, Library so that other hon. Members can see it. as set out in the Lost Life report, to halt the decline of wildlife, to protect environmental sites from planners, and Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): Could the Leader to introduce policies to restore the health of ecosystems of the House find time for a debate about business across the entire landscape.] rates? I appreciate that many businesses are getting a The early-day motion refers to the huge number of rate cut as a result of a revaluation, but many also face wildlife species that are becoming extinct, noting that rises and the transitional relief scheme still allows some 500 species have already become extinct and a further businesses to pay as much an 11 per cent. increase in 943 are under threat. If the Leader of the House is their business rates. In difficult economic times that is trying to find time when such a debate could take place, an awful lot of money for a small business, and this may I suggest Wednesday 31 March? That would allow needs to be reconsidered. the Prime Minister to come to the House and it would enable upwards of 20 Back Benchers to speak in the Ms Harman: We recognise that, because of the global Easter Adjournment debate—in addition, it is my birthday economic recession, things have been very difficult for then. business. That is one reason why we have allowed all businesses to apply to have their tax liabilities postponed Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman will have an under the time to pay scheme, which has helped opportunity, as Department for Environment, Food 200,000 businesses up and down the country. My and Rural Affairs Question Time is next week. He can hon. Friend mentioned the transitional relief scheme, ask the Secretary of State about those important issues. and I will ensure that the whole situation is kept firmly within the sights of the relevant Ministers, to whose Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): The House attention I shall draw his comments. began the Adjournment debate yesterday at about 3.30 pm, and there is plenty of time for a debate on the impact on Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): On the most our economy that the strike at British Airways will have. unfortunate industrial action at British Airways, will Will the Leader of the House give time for such a the Leader of the House guarantee that a Transport debate so that we can examine how Unite permeates Minister will come to make a further statement next right to the heart of government in 10 Downing street, week? Will she also give an undertaking that Ministers and see how it is bankrolling the Labour Government will be flying with British Airways when this strike is and bankrupting Britain? going on and will not be fearful of the wrath of the Prime Minister, who clearly was not prepared to cross a Ms Harman: When it comes to bankrolling, the point picket line, as his lack of answers to the oral questions about trade union funding to the Labour party is that it that were put to him yesterday showed. involves hundreds of thousands of individuals at work— people who have signed up to pay the political levy. Ms Harman: As the Prime Minister said yesterday, Those people pay the political contribution out of taxed we hope that the strike will not go ahead because a income, unlike the contributions from Lord Ashcroft, settlement will be achieved. That is very much the which come from not paying the tens of millions of position that we take: we hope that there will be a pounds of tax promised by the shadow Foreign Secretary. settlement. An urgent question about the British Airways dispute was asked earlier this week, and we have just had Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I wonder whether the Transport questions. We hope the strike can be averted. Leader of the House could find time for an urgent debate on Natural England’s report “Lost Life”, to Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): The which early-day motion 1101 refers. Leader of the House will know that I had cause to send [That this House notes with grave concern the report her a Valentine’s card—my only Valentine’s card, in entitled Lost Life published by Natural England which fact—but does she agree that the pretend Valentine’s details the huge loss of plants and animals native to card put out by Croydon NHS in an attempt to England, with the scale of extinction most marked in the communicate on the issues of poor sexual health is past 200 years when most of the recorded loss of nearly inappropriate? Should we perhaps have a debate on the 500 species has occurred including 24 per cent. of all best way to promote good sexual health? After all: butterflies, 22 per cent. of amphibians, 15 per cent. of “Harriet is Red, dolphins and whales, and 12 per cent. of land mammals; I am no longer Blue, is alarmed that the report shows that 943 English species are under threat, with most of those disappearing being Sexual health is black and white, the victims of intensive farming, pollution and pesticides, But you’ve got to get the message right.” coupled with the loss over the past six decades of most of England’s wildflower meadows as well as a huge reduction Ms Harman: I saw the Valentine’s card that the hon. in ponds, chalklands and peatlands, with changes in agriculture Gentleman received, and I think it was hard-hitting in practices resulting in birds and insects being deprived of sending the message that chlamydia can seriously damage 985 Business of the House18 MARCH 2010 Business of the House 986

[Ms Harman] alarmingly that approximately one quarter of primary care trusts in England are planning to reduce spending on people’s health, particularly that of young women, and carers’ services; and calls on the Government to take the effects can last a lifetime. It is important that young immediate action.] women and men are warned about the effects of sexually The Government pledged £100 million to support carers transmitted diseases. This is the point: if the Valentine’s for 2010-11. Research by the Princess Royal Trust for card, which was sent out by way of public information, Carers has found that only about a quarter of that works, that is the most important thing. We should do money will be used for helping carers. Horrifyingly, everything we can to help young people to protect their about a quarter of primary care trusts next year propose own health, including from sexually transmitted infections. to reduce the amount that they spend supporting carers. Please may we have an urgent debate on how we ensure Sir Michael Spicer (West Worcestershire) (Con): I that the money the Government have committed to understand that the Independent Parliamentary Standards support carers actually gets to the carers who need Authority is due to publish its list of allowances in two support? weeks. Why has the Fees Office produced another list today? Is not that rather confusing? Ms Harman: We would all agree that support for Ms Harman: The Fees Office is still responsible for carers is very important indeed. The fact of the matter the allowances that are paid out to hon. Members until is that, over the next couple of decades, the number of such time as IPSA takes that over, which will be after people aged over 85 is set to increase dramatically. That the general election. means support not only from social services, domiciliary services and residential care, but from family members, Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): May I which is why we have increased support for families—for report to the Leader of the House the considerable example, through the right to request flexible working—and disquiet in the Defence Committee, on all sides, since why we think it important to provide more access to the Prime Minister finally admitted that he had cut respite care. defence expenditure during wartime? Can she imagine how difficult it is to conduct proper scrutiny through The finances have been made available to primary Select Committees when the Government are in constant care trusts to support carers and to improve the care of denial of the truth? Will she arrange time for a debate older and disabled people. While allowing for local on the Osmotherly rules, which determine how Ministers autonomy and flexibility, we must ensure that those field civil servants, chiefs of staff and, indeed, themselves national standards are met, which includes, I have to in front of Select Committees—how they conduct say, a measure of targeting. I think the hon. Gentleman themselves? Will she confirm that a new report is being would agree that sometimes we need national targets to compiled by the Cabinet Office for the civil service and be set out and enforced, because we cannot have a Ministers? Should not that be debated as a vital part of postcode lottery. our constitution? Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): Ms Harman: The Osmotherly rules have recently I think that we are making progress on the Standing been reviewed, but I think it is true to say that no Orders for the Back-Bench business committee, and I member of the Government—indeed, no Labour welcome what the Leader of the House has said today Member—has refused to appear before a Select Committee. about plan B, but does she agree that if she tabled a Such a refusal is a complete snub to a Select Committee Standing Order to be taken under remaining orders of and shows contempt for it. That is what the shadow the day and an amendment was tabled, whatever its Foreign Secretary— merits, she would have either to accept that amendment Mr. Jenkin: Order! to enable the proposal to remain under remaining orders, by definition, or consider the proposal, as opposition Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not need any help from the would have been expressed? Will she give us a clue hon. Gentleman. I have the greatest affection for him, about the time scale for tabling such a proposal, the but he should not tell me how to do my job. He is a very consultation on it and plan B? able fellow, but I am not sure he would know where to start. What I want to—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ooh!”] I am not sure he would. Ms Harman: The resolutions of the House required for things to be done in time for the next Parliament, so What I want to say to the Leader of the House is that that is the timing that we have to comply with. We were it seems to me that this matter, to put it bluntly, has able to get so many of the Wright Committee been done to death. I have been willing to hear people’s recommendations through under remaining orders of questions and what she has said by way of reply, but we the day, and there is even less justification for anybody must focus on the business of the House for next week to object to proposals under remaining orders when and the provisional business for the week thereafter. they simply implement a decision that has already been Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Please may we have made by the House. If that is done, in a spoiling or a debate on support for carers based on early-day wrecking tactic, we will have plan B, because I am under motion 1126? a duty and a responsibility to ensure that this happens [That this House notes with concern research by the before the next Parliament so that the Standing Orders Princess Royal Trust for Carers and Crossroads Care, are in place. which has found that, of the £100 million the Government has committed through the NHS to provide support for Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): The Prime Minister carers in 2010-11, only 26 per cent. is planned to be spent has admitted that he misled the inquiry over the issue of by primary care trusts to increase support for carers and defence expenditure. Will the Leader of the House 987 Business of the House 18 MARCH 2010 988 arrange for him to come and make a statement to the Points of Order House next week, so that Back-Bench Members of Parliament with an interest in those matters have the 12.21 pm opportunity to question him and hold him to account over this very serious matter? Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, the Table Office told Ms Harman: The Prime Minister has been held to me that the 2009 annual report from the Foreign and account and answered questions from this Dispatch Commonwealth Office on human rights would be laid Box yesterday. The person who has not been prepared before the House and made available to Members during to answer questions and has not been prepared to be the day. In the event, the report does not appear to have held to account is the shadow Foreign Secretary. This is been laid before the House, although it appeared online a question of double standards because Conservative yesterday evening. I also understand that it was made Members are asking for transparency and accountability available to members of the media and others who while themselves showing contempt for transparency attended the FCO’s launch event yesterday evening. I and accountability. hope that this is no more than an unfortunate oversight, but that you will use your good offices to ensure that it Mr. Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater) (Con): Given is not repeated. that the Wright Committee business is still going through the House, will the Leader of the House give time to Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for discuss the politicisation of Select Committees? I am a his point of order, and for giving me advance notice of member of the Public Administration Committee. We it. I understand that the document referred to was feel that we cannot attend because it has become a indeed published online without being laid before the mouthpiece for the Government and that devalues the House, which should not have happened. I have instructed whole basis of Select Committees. Our papers are political; that the matter be taken up at once with the Foreign and our discussions are now political. Will she please give Commonwealth Office—a representative of which, in time for this place to discuss the future of the Select the form of the Minister for Europe, is with us. He is Committee system? poised to respond.

Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): I am grateful, about that. Select Committees have to be able to do Mr. Speaker. I think that this is a very unfortunate things that are sometimes controversial in all parts of oversight, and I do apologise to the House. We will the House. Whatever the Select Committees decide to make sure that it is rectified as soon as possible. do, any individual Member can decide whether they want to participate as an individual member of that Mr. Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the Minister, Select Committee in the proceedings of that Committee. and I think that the House will be as well. If they do not want to, they can decide not to. As for a Select Committee, on behalf of the House, calling a Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): On a point of Member to give evidence, once that call has been made, order, Mr. Speaker. I want to raise two related issues on it should be responded to and respected. which I seek your guidance. On Monday 1 March, the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary visited my Mr. Speaker: Last but certainly not least, Mr. Charles Reading, East constituency. Neither contacted me, but Walker. the Prime Minister’s office did inform the press, the council, the police and the neighbouring Labour MP. I Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I want to seek your guidance first about whether that lack of follow up the question from my hon. Friend the Member courtesy is acceptable. for West Worcestershire (Sir Michael Spicer). The letter Secondly, I put down parliamentary questions to ask from the Fees Office today sets out in detail the allowances the Prime Minister when he notified the groups I mentioned, for Members in the forthcoming financial year. Why is but the response that I got was: the letter being sent to Members two weeks before IPSA “For security reasons, my engagements are announced as and publishes its scheme? This is the type of confusion and when appropriate.”—[Official Report, 15 March 2010; Vol. 507, chaos that brings this House into disrepute, and puts c. 580W.] Members’ reputations at greater risk. That was not the question that I asked. I was asking after the event, so there should have been no security Ms Harman: Those are the allowances that will apply implications. Can you advise right hon. and hon. Members until the new Parliament. It is the Fees Office’s responsibility how to get straightforward answers to straightforward to make clear the provisions for the new financial year. parliamentary questions that have absolutely nothing That regime will cease after the next general election, to do with the security of the Prime Minister and the and the IPSA regime will apply. The IPSA regime will Home Secretary? be published but it will not apply until the new Parliament. Until then, the Fees Office is responsible for giving the Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): Further to that information and running the allowances system. point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was not going to raise this matter, but in a sense the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister are both the same and both to blame. The right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) wrote to me on Friday about his visit to Tilbury on Monday. I am not suggesting that that was deliberate, but both of them need to understand that they owe 989 Points of Order 18 MARCH 2010 990

[Andrew Mackinlay] Intelligence and Security Committee courtesies to ordinary Back Benchers in this House. Motion made, and Question proposed, Their offices should tell us—[Interruption.] No, no: it That this House has considered the matter of the Annual was sent by pigeon post and did not reach me till Report of the Intelligence and Security Committee for 2008-09 Tuesday. That is the point. I wanted to greet the bloke, (Cm 7807) and the Government’s response (Cm 7808).—(Mr. Watts.) because I wanted to ask him about the Conservative council doing away with the subsidy on the thousand- 12.26 pm year-old Tilbury ferry. Why do we not bang their heads together, and move on? Dr. Kim Howells (Pontypridd) (Lab): I have had the honour to chair the Intelligence and Security Committee since October 2008, or for roughly 18 months now. This Mr. Speaker: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, is the second time that I have had the opportunity to who is the embodiment of the cheeky chappie this open such a debate, and it will be the last. I wish to put morning. However, he makes a very reasonable point. on record my thanks to members of the Committee and The hon. Member for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson) its staff for their hard work in what has been a remarkably raised the subject of the normal courtesy of notifying a difficult year for it in more ways than one, as I shall seek Member whose constituency one is visiting on public to illustrate. business. I say to him that I think that it is very desirable Some members of the ISC have announced their that that courtesy should always be observed, and that intention to retire as MPs. They include the right hon. it is regrettable when it is not. In respect of the other Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), who is the point that he raised, I think that he knows that he was only ISC member to have served on the Committee engaging in a debate. Whatever scope I have, he will since its creation 16 years ago. He is our remembrancer, recognise that my powers are limited. My scope does and future Committees will greatly miss his pretty awesome not extend to the content of ministerial—including powers of recall, and his sense of humour. prime ministerial—answers to questions. The right hon. and learned Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) is another to be leaving. He has great experience of international affairs, and of matters relating ROYAL ASSENT to Northern Ireland and his spiritual home in the borders of Scotland. Finally, my hon. Friend the Member Mr. Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance for Wirral, South (Ben Chapman) is also retiring. He with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has has inevitably enhanced our deliberations with his unrivalled signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts and knowledge of Whitehall’s administrative and political Measures: geography and its darker arts. Appropriation Act 2010 For a Committee of nine to lose four of its members Marriage (Wales) Act 2010 at one fell swoop is a serious blow against the cause of continuity and that is why I am going to concentrate in Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and my contribution on one theme. In my view, it is the most Credit Unions Act 2010 important theme—that of strengthening and sustaining Taxation (International and Other Provisions) Act 2010 the independence of the Intelligence and Security Church of England (Miscellaneous Provisions) Committee. Measure 2010 Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): Will my right Vacancies in Suffragan Sees and Other Ecclesiastical hon. Friend give way? Offices Measure 2010 Crown Benefices (Parish Representatives) Measure 2010. Dr. Howells: I have hardly got started. I will not give way yet, but I will come back to my hon. Friend.

Andrew Mackinlay: I am on the MP scrappage scheme as well!

Dr. Howells: It is my right to continue, is it not, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker: Indeed.

Dr. Howells: Then I will come back to my hon. Friend. There are many other important issues that have come before the ISC and I am sure that they will be dealt with by the hon. and right hon. Members who are present. Those issues include the allegations generated by the Binyam Mohammed case, and the relationship that exists between our intelligence and security agencies and their counterparts in other countries, as well as the 991 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 992 measures being taken to counter the activities of those Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Does the right who would do harm to Britain through cyber attack hon. Gentleman agree that there is a contradiction in and other forms of electronic warfare. the Government’s behaviour in regard to intelligence Indeed, we have looked this year at the measures security? Oftentimes they press us to make very fast taken to deal with a whole range of threats to the UK, decisions—in my judgment, badly thought-out decisions— including the threat posed by the latest wave of Irish here on the Floor of the House when we introduce republican terrorism and the threat from espionage, legislation in the name of national security, yet when including the potential use of powerful electromagnetic they have an independent-minded and authoritative pulses and a range of other advanced technologies. Committee such as his, they sit on the recommendations Latterly, of course, we have expended a huge amount of for months, almost a year. That simply does not accord time reviewing the new, consolidated guidance for with the panic-stricken pleas for hon. Members’ questioning detainees and others, but that is an ongoing co-operation when we get dragged through the Lobbies review that I am sure will be the subject of intense on intelligence and security matters. debate and scrutiny at a later time. Dr. Howells: Much as I do not want to disagree with Andrew Mackinlay: I give notice that some of my the hon. Gentleman, I have to say I have not experienced right hon. Friend’s officials might like to refer to those panicky debates on the Floor, but, as I said, I column 433 of our debate on 7 May last year in relation bitterly resent these delays. They are needless and they to paragraph 177 of that report, which does not seem to should be addressed. have been addressed in this report. We were promised Shortcomings in the way the ISC has been treated that it would be, and I shall raise that later. over the last 18 months have for the first time led us to I want to draw Mr. Speaker’s attention to the paragraph publicise in our 2009-10 annual report our concerns before the contents page of this report, which states: about its status. It is a very serious matter, as those who “The Prime Minister appoints the ISC Members after considering have had the opportunity to read our report will realise. nominations from Parliament”. The fact that we are publicising these difficulties is not, That is simply not true, is it? There are no nominations as some in the media have speculated, in response to from Parliament. Why do we put this garbage in a criticisms that the Committee is not robust enough. report when it is simply not true? If I am wrong, no They should know better. The ISC has never been a doubt my right hon. Friend will point out to me how I Committee to pander to its critics. We prefer to get on missed the opportunity to be nominated. with our work and leave the sensationalist headlines to others, but we have experienced significant difficulties Dr. Howells: That is for good now. I am very grateful, during the past 12 to 18 months, which we have been as ever, to my hon. Friend for bringing these matters to trying to resolve within the system. The failure of our attention, and I am sure that they will be discussed the system to respond means that we are taking the by the usual channels. unprecedented step of commenting publicly, in the hope that we can change things so that our successors This debate should be on the Committee’s 2008-09 on the ISC do not have to face the same problems that annual report on our work from December 2008 to we have faced. July 2009. We sent it to the Prime Minister in December 2009, but unfortunately it has taken more than three months for it to be published. We have complained Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): I recognise the great bitterly about that delay to both the Prime Minister and importance of this Committee and its very responsible his security adviser. Given that the Committee signed remit, but does the right hon. Gentleman think that off the text in July 2009, eight months ago, that is there is any case whatever for the chairmanship to be in simply unacceptable. I hope that my right hon. Friend the hands of the Opposition rather than in those of the the Foreign Secretary will give an undertaking that it Government? Does he have any view whatever on the will not take this long again. There is no good reason application of the new Wright Committee arrangements for the delay, other than bureaucratic inertia, to use one to be made applicable to the ISC, and will he please of his own favourite phrases. Such has been the delay in comment on that? publishing the 2008-09 report, that in the meantime the Committee has completed its 2009-10 annual report, Dr. Howells: That is a very good question. I would which we sent to the Prime Minister on 5 March. When have no objection to the Chair of the Committee being we sent it to him, we requested that it be published by a member of Her Majesty’s Opposition. That does not 17 March—yesterday—at the latest, to ensure that right seem to me to strain credibility in any shape or form. I hon. and hon. Members would have the opportunity to hope to deal in a moment with the question of its read it in good time for this debate. We were assured becoming a Select Committee. If the hon. Gentleman that it would happen and I have every sympathy with will allow me, I will come to that shortly. hon. Members who have not had sufficient time to The ISC has been in existence for 16 years. It is read it. controversial and it attracts much comment and criticism. It is also very disappointing to the Committee that, This arises primarily from the way in which we conduct despite the fact that the Government have had sight of our work, the vast majority of which is private. Anything our report in draft form for some time, we have had to done behind closed doors leads to gossip, and the ISC is fight the Cabinet Office, even yesterday, to be given no different. There has been much comment on and sight of the Government’s response to our report in speculation about what the Committee does or does not sufficient time before this debate. It is a shame that they do, how it does or does not hold the agencies to account, do not place more value on our being able to have a how it would be better to hold meetings in public, and well-informed debate in the Chamber. how we should have some kind of running judicial 993 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 994

[Dr. Howells] circus waiting to hear the great questions that we will ask the directors of our agencies. When we ask them, inquiry instead. The complaints, the wish lists, the they will sound like patsy questions because that is all conspiracy theories and pies in the sky keep tumbling they ever can be. As I said, this is about secrets. We do off the fevered production line week by week. not expect our agencies to spill secrets all over the place I want to tell the House a few things about the ISC. because they are in the business of trying to keep this We meet in private because the things that the agencies country safe from terrorists and other murderous lunatics. talk to us about are secret. Therefore, if we met in public they could not talk to us about secret things. If Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Surely they can talk to us about non-secret things, it would be the issue is not whether the Committee is in name a a pretty pointless discussion. So if we meet in public, Select Committee but how it has to operate. The change Parliament will get less oversight of the agencies’ work, that would make it completely ineffective would be if it not more. I do not think that that is a difficult concept could no longer report directly to the Prime Minister on to grasp, but still people keep talking about the ISC the state of affairs in the secret work that it is able to meeting in public or becoming a Select Committee. If examine, because a published report on that subject the House wants to make the ISC a Select Committee—at would destroy the effectiveness of the work itself. least the kind of Select Committee that we have currently—so be it, but I want to say as a matter of Dr. Howells: I absolutely agree with the right hon. record that a Select Committee will not get the access Gentleman, who has been a distinguished member of that the ISC gets, so oversight will not be strengthened the Committee. but weakened. It is only because of that that I and other members of the ISC would not recommend this oversight Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): Does the body becoming a Select Committee. The present Chairman agree that if the ISC sat in public, no evidence arrangements are far from perfect, as we know, but it is would be put before it that could not be heard by any my view and, I believe, that of the Committee, that this other Select Committee in this House—by the Select Parliament would end up with far, far less accountability Committee on Foreign Affairs, the Select Committee if the ISC were a Select Committee. I hope that both on Defence or any other interested Committee? Houses will consider any proposals with great care before such a transformation is agreed. Dr. Howells: I am not sure that I understood the hon. Gentleman’s question—I know that he is a tough questioner Andrew Mackinlay: If my right hon. Friend looks at because he is a member of the Committee. In his the Official Report tomorrow, he will see he said that if wisdom, the former Prime Minister John Major thought the ISC was a Select Committee, it would get a lot less long and hard before he created the Committee. The information than we get now. That is an affront to hon. Gentleman knows that over the years the Committee Parliament. Who is running this country? Is it them, or has been around the world, talking to other committees is it us? The ground rules would have to be dictated. It is that have such oversight responsibilities. I do not think no different from the Congress of the United States. It that the Committee has ever come across a superior has a congressional committee, which we do not have—a system—I would certainly disagree with my hon. Friend parliamentary committee—it gets access and it is the the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) about legislature and the scrutiniser for its country. So are we. the American system, as I do not think it is superior at It is not for the secret service or the spooks to tell us all. It is completely flawed and is probably one of the what we can or cannot have. That is an affront to our reasons why the Americans are in so much trouble over constitution and our democracy. trying to distinguish between torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment—or CIDT—and the rest of it. Dr. Howells: That was a very fine speech, and I appreciated it, but my hon. Friend has a speech of his Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington and Chelsea) (Con): own to make and I am sure he will do so. I agree with much of what the right hon. Gentleman says, but will he bear the following fact in mind? I took Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): I hope my part in the discussions with John Major on the formation right hon. Friend recognises that the criticism that may of the Committee and those discussions were of the well come today, including from myself, is in no way kind to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. However, directed at personalities, but is about the credibility of does he accept it is important that the Committee the Committee. I for one do not accept, unlike perhaps evolves and that the fact that it is not formally described my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew as a Select Committee of the House adds to the impression Mackinlay), that it can operate as an ordinary Select that it is the creature of the Prime Minister? That is a Committee. I have never advanced that idea. My right false impression, but it is nevertheless one that is often hon. Friend dismisses the possibility of public sessions, held. Is it not possible to consider changing the status of but I remind him that on 17 July 2008 the Foreign the Committee so that it formally becomes a Select Secretary told the House, with reference to my amendment: Committee but one with very special rules both as “The Government believe that there is scope for holding some regards the way in which its members are appointed and sessions in public, and we want to make progress on that.”—[Official the way in which it operates, to safeguard the crucial Report, 17 July 2008; Vol. 479, c. 497.] points that he has made?

Dr. Howells: My hon. Friend is quite right. Those Dr. Howells: I have always found the right hon. undertakings—or promises, or pledges, or whatever we Gentleman’s words to be very wise, but on this point we want to call them—have been made. I have to say to him are very close to drifting towards gesture politics. I am that I would love to chair such a session with the media not sure that the hard, central question of what the 995 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 996

Committee does and how it has that access would be Committee agrees, and he does so in a robust and addressed by such a change of title. I agree entirely, effective way. However, I fear that when parties are in however, that it should always be ready to evolve. This opposition they tend to think that such chairmanship is House should take a great interest in the way it evolves a good idea, but when they come into government they and should shape that evolution, but I cannot see that it do not. That is another matter, however. would make an enormous difference to call it something It is easy for some of our critics—I am sorry to else. Perhaps it would be more acceptable in the eyes of include in their number some right hon. and hon. some, but I am not sure that I see that. Members who chair parliamentary Select Committees There are changes that need to be made to the and Joint Committees—to drive their tanks on to the Committee, however, and that need to be made very lawn of the ISC and fire shells at the structure and quickly. They concern the need to maintain and reconfirm performance of the Committee. They know, of course, the Committee’s independence from the bodies and that the nature of the material that we work with limits agencies that it oversees. Put bluntly, these changes severely our ability to return fire, however frustrated we must help to guarantee in the eyes of parliamentarians might feel about it. Just because our reports do not go and the public that there must be no threat to the in for sensational soundbites, that does not mean that independence of the ISC and that its future independence we have not done a thorough job in arriving at our will be protected. conclusions. Our critics, because they cannot see what we do, There are others in this House who for perfectly presume the worst when it comes to our independence. noble reasons, I am sure, project themselves as the They presume that we sit and nod at the agencies and tribunes of liberty and transparency. Some of those agree with everything that they say. They do not know, great tribunes are not above stirring the pot by dropping because they cannot see it, so how can they know that dark hints to their friends in the media that members of we act with a robustness and a determination that are the ISC should be regarded as little more than the the equal of any Committee in this Parliament? Having placemen of the Prime Minister. I will not convince spent a number of stimulating years as a belligerent them otherwise, but I want to say to them that I have member of a particularly ruthless Public Accounts had experience of no other group of individuals who Committee, I can swear to that. All our members have have displayed more independence of spirit or more sat on Select Committees and they will reassure anyone determination to uncover the truth than I have in the that they act just as robustly on the ISC as they would ISC. It is a Committee that can withstand ill-informed on any other Committee. attacks on its integrity and motives, not least because it does not indulge in the kind of party political point Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): Is scoring that flows so often from the leaking and backdoor the right hon. Gentleman convinced that his Committee briefings that are among the chief curses of Committees has the resources and the backing that the PAC does, of this House. with the National Audit Office? Does he think that If we on the ISC have concerns about the independence strengthening the ISC and reforming its structure would of the Committee, they stem not from the motives and be helped by having the powers and resources that the abilities of its members but from the nature of the ISC’s PAC can draw on with the NAO? relationship with the Whitehall administrative machine. On pages 4 and 5 of our 2009-10 annual report, we have Dr. Howells: I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman described how, over the last 12 to 18 months, it has has raised that point. We have the NAO as one of our become very clear to us that there are some within the investigative advisory bodies. It is cleared for studying Whitehall bureaucracy who, for reasons of their own, secret documents and it looks at the issues and reports have not understood or have refused to accept that the to us. We take great cognisance of its reports and we independence of the ISC is sacrosanct. Some of them have our own investigator, of course. If he is asking me have given the impression that they regard the ISC as an whether the Committee needs more resources because irritation—a problem that they could well do without. of its importance, I certainly agree that it does. I shall Inside the Whitehall machine they think of us as a try to explain that. thorn in their side, which is ironic, because outside Whitehall we are told that we are not a sufficiently Mr. Cash: Knowing the right hon. Gentleman as I do sharp thorn in their side. I have little doubt that some and knowing that he is robust and independent, I find Whitehall insiders, like some right hon. and hon. Members, the fact that he is raising the issue of independence by believe it would be far easier to turn the ISC into a way of a sort of criticism to be in itself a demonstration Select Committee, but that, as I tried to explain earlier, of his integrity. However, may I return to the point that would be about as useful as a chocolate teapot. I made earlier? In order to bolster and make clear to the That is almost certainly the reason why, during the public at large, and to Parliament too, that there is that past 18 months, life for the ISC secretariat has been degree of independence, would it not be a good idea—in distinctly uncomfortable and, at times, very unpleasant terms of the respect that such a move would gain—for and threatening. The ISC does not take kindly to such the Chairman of the Committee, provided that the right behaviour. We are not a Committee to be “steered”, person was chosen, to come from the Opposition? “guided”or manipulated by means of any other Whitehall cliché; we are a statutory and independent Committee Dr. Howells: I tried to answer the hon. Gentleman in of parliamentarians, and we speak as we find. the best way I could. I have no objection to that at all. Let me make it clear that when I talk about Whitehall Sitting to his left is the right hon. Member for East insiders, I am not talking about the Committee staff or Hampshire, who chairs the Committee when he has to. the agencies that we oversee. It is the Committee’s He also speaks on behalf of the Committee when the experience, for example, that the harder we investigate 997 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 998

[Dr. Howells] Office has hosted the Committee since it was set up in 1994. That was for administrative convenience, and no and question the agencies, the better they understand more than that, whatever might be said now, because the need to be fully accountable. Although it may sound the Cabinet Office was a central Department that was paradoxical, they understand the need to be more used to handling highly classified material, and it had transparent within the so-called circle of secrecy that suitably security-cleared staff. However, the role of the encompasses most of their work and the Committee’s Cabinet Office, in terms of its relationship with the work. The intelligence and security agencies understand intelligence and security services, has grown substantially full well the value of an ISC that is robust, well equipped over the past 16 years, and the Committee’s remit has and determined. They know that without effective and similarly evolved to include that central intelligence independent oversight they will fail in their vital task of machinery in the Cabinet Office. The relationship is maintaining and strengthening the trust that the people therefore now completely different: we sit in a Department of this country have in them. that has a significant role in the UK intelligence community, The agencies can rarely defend themselves publicly which we oversee, and we do not believe that that is an when they are attacked. They are a sitting target for appropriate relationship. anyone describing themselves as a campaigning journalist; As a matter of principle, no matter what the for certain—and it pains me to say this—high-profile circumstances, it is clearly not right for the ISC to be defence lawyers who appear not to be overly concerned hosted by an organisation that the ISC has a role in about throwing mud at them, presumably in the hope overseeing. No matter how sturdy and high the Chinese that it will influence the public mood in favour of their walls within a Department such as the Cabinet Office clients; for some of the less scrupulous non-governmental may be, the danger of boundaries not being respected is agencies with axes to grind; and for 1,001 conspiracy potentially deadly for the reputation of the ISC. The theorists from the judiciary to the clubhouse. Committee has therefore requested that it be moved to The agencies realise that our heightened oversight is another Department—one without such a central role in their own interests; it is in their own interests to be in security and intelligence matters. We believe that that properly held to account. But they and we will never would serve to demonstrate that there is no link between convince the British people that the agencies are being the Committee and those whom it oversees, and that it held properly to account if there is one iota of doubt would provide a much needed separation. about the independence of the ISC. Mr. Cash: I think I heard the right hon. Gentleman Mr. Michael Mates (East Hampshire) (Con): I could say that he thought the Committee should be moved to not agree more. The right hon. Gentleman points out the precincts of another Department. Given the importance that such behaviour is a relatively new phenomenon of the Committee, the sensitivity of the information that has hit us from the authorities in Whitehall only in involved and the extreme responsibility that the Committee the past year or so, but it is getting worse. May I remind has, does he not think there is a case for moving it to him that when he opened our previous debate, a reprimand completely separate precincts? was sent from the Cabinet Office to the Clerk of our Committee, because the Committee staff had not told Dr. Howells: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that the Cabinet Office what the Chairman was going to say? question. The Committee is in a completely separate I do not know how that new attitude towards the building, and we have a room in which we meet and Committee has come in, but the sooner it is put away, hold discussions. Witnesses appear before us in that the better. room, which, I am reliably informed, is swept frequently, Dr. Howells: I could not agree more, as I shall try to and it is perfectly secure and safe. So I am not worried make clear. about that aspect, but I understand why the hon. Gentleman asked that question. As for our staff, the secretariat of the ISC, allegations have been made, sometimes in this very The same point applies to our budget request. As Chamber, that they are not independent. Nothing could with our staff, our accommodation and other resources be further from the truth. They work wholeheartedly are decided and allocated by the Cabinet Office, and for the Committee, and they defend its independence there is clearly a conflict of interest if the Committee absolutely—to the point where their own careers have has to go cap in hand to those whom it oversees in order been put in jeopardy, as the right hon. Gentleman just to get the resources that it needs to oversee them. hinted at. They are our most valuable asset: intelligent, Therefore, we also recommended to the Prime Minister hard-working people who have accumulated a great and the Cabinet Secretary that our resources be separated fund of experience and knowledge. In so many ways, from the Cabinet Office, and that our budget be index-linked they guarantee the vital continuity that the ISC requires, as a set percentage of the single intelligence account, and they are the causeway between one Parliament and although outwith the SIA itself. That would allow the the next. That is why I hope that my right hon. Friend Committee’s activity and capabilities to grow or shrink the Foreign Secretary will today assure the House that in accordance with those whom it oversees, with a when the current Committee members stand down, minimum threshold to ensure that fixed costs were there will be no attempt to interfere with the Committee’s covered, thus ensuring that the oversight function were secretariat in the intervening period before a new Committee proportionate to the work that it oversaw. In our view, is appointed. I, for one, would interpret any such step as those changes are fundamental if the ISC is to maintain a severe breach of its independence. and reinforce its independence. The Committee believes that, in order to reinforce its But the wheels of Whitehall turn abysmally slowly in independence, it must move out of the Cabinet Office. response to our requests. We have shown how it is There are very good reasons for that. The Cabinet possible to solve all the difficulties that may arise from 999 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1000 these administrative changes, and we have presented the headed by judges, in the shape of the Investigatory powers that be with solutions; they in return have Powers Tribunal, that can conduct any inquiry it chooses presented us, largely, with silence. That silence will not to. They call for the ISC to hold public meetings, yet serve to help us to convince the British people that the they gloss over the fact that the agencies will not be able Intelligence and Security Committee enjoys the to say anything in public, so they will be for show only. independence that it requires to do its job properly. They call our staff “spooks”, yet they do not know that Today, finally, we have the Government response to those staff have put their careers on the line in very our report, and what does it say in response to our difficult circumstances because they uphold the request? It says that it requires “further consideration”. independence of this Committee. They call for us to It is surely stretching credibility to suggest that after five become a Select Committee, yet they do not realise that months the Government still have not managed to that is playing into the hands of those who think it is reach a decision. I hope it is not the case that they have probably a jolly good idea that parliamentarians should made a decision but do not want to say so. They say that not be allowed to poke around in the very deepest a move might—this is a wonderful phrase—“complicate recesses of our intelligence and security agencies. accountabilities”, but I find it difficult to see how it is When it comes to the ISC, it seems that, for some, such an insurmountable problem, when the central perception is all that matters. But let me tell hon. question is the independence of the Committee. Members that this Committee has worked tirelessly, The Government then say: and not simply at the tasks it was created to undertake “The most appropriate time for such engagement is early in a but at trying to sort out row after row and problem after new Parliament.” problem, most of which have arisen because, as I have explained, the Committee’s administrative home continues That, of course, is Whitehall-speak for booting our to be in the Cabinet Office, which now has so many proposals into touch. They are really saying, “Let’s get additional intelligence and security responsibilities. Believe rid of this awkward lot we’ve got on the Committee at me, the Committee has not done all this for the sake of the moment and when we get a new committee we’ll just perception. Nor have we done it for popularity, or so gloss over it and make it go away.” I trust that this that our members can edge a few more centimetres up House will not stand for such short-sighted and ill-advised the greasy political pole— most of us are too close to behaviour. As a matter of principle, the ISC cannot the end of our political careers to worry about any kind continue to sit within the Cabinet Office or any other of preferment. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Department with a central intelligence role. There are Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) once no grounds to refuse our request to move, and no good informed the Prime Minister face to face, most of us on reason not to agree to it. the Committee are closer to being extinguished than I very much hope that my right hon. Friend the distinguished. We certainly have not done it for money. Foreign Secretary will carefully consider what I have I believe that I only Committee Chairman who is not said and confirm for us here today that he will back this paid for his pains; I will take back-pay any time. Like relatively modest administrative change. It does not every other ISC member, I do what I do because I require an Act of Parliament. It does not mean that the believe in the work that the Committee does, independently, Ministry of Justice, for example, has to find new living in holding the agencies to account. quarters for the ISC; nor will it be a new administrative or financial burden for that Department or for any I am sure that in the course of this debate right hon. other Department. It is a simple matter, but for us it is a and hon. Members will deal with a number of the most vital one. I urge him to act on it and restore our faith controversial issues generated over the past year around that the Government want an independent oversight issues of intelligence and security. I would like to thank Committee. Committee members for the enormous amount of hard work and dedication that they have given to the Committee, The Government must take great care to ensure that and especially for the way they have conducted themselves Whitehall’s reluctance to implement even a modest in the face of endless criticism and sniping from those, change such as this does not serve to undermine the inside and outside this place, who seem to believe that credibility of the ISC. I have made clear my views about all secret intelligence and security operations must the erosion of real oversight that would result if the ISC intrinsically be evil and designed to erode human liberty became just another Select Committee. A Select Committee and dignity. might offer less of an administrative burden to the Whitehall machine than the ISC does, and be far less One of the duties of the ISC is to ensure that the controversial, but less oversight will do little other than agencies and organisations that we oversee carry out provide nourishment to those who, for all kinds of their work according to the laws of this country and in reasons, wish to undermine the reputation of our intelligence compliance with the international laws and treaties that and security agencies and of the Committee that oversees this country has signed up to. That means that we take them. very seriously the defence of human rights and civil The ISC does an immensely valuable job, and it is a liberties where they may be affected by the work of our great shame that that is not recognised by a vocal few, intelligence and security agencies. We will continue to but that is always the way when one cannot talk about maintain the utmost vigilance in detecting and, if we what one does. Sadly, many of those who talk about find them, highlighting transgressions in these areas. intelligence matters are less bothered with the truth—with But we have other roles, as well. One of them is to the facts of the matter—than with trying to get a ensure that our agencies have the means and the wherewithal sensational headline. They call for a judicial inquiry to protect this country from the terrorists and enemies—be into allegations of misconduct by the agencies, yet they they Islamic suicide bombers, Irish republican gunmen conveniently ignore the fact that there is already a body or any other breed of murdering fanatic who believes 1001 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1002

[Dr. Howells] quite difficult for the House to lose the grip of this moment in not alluding to it. The substantive motion that by slaughtering British citizens they can help their that the House will be invited to agree to or negate is on religion or their cause. There is no reason why those two the ’08-’09 report, so I hope that that is where the main functions cannot fit perfectly well together. focus of the debate will be. However, I would not be Those of us who have had the privilege to serve on helping right hon. and hon. Members if I said that I do this Committee are well aware that our intelligence and not want to hear any reference to the ’09-’10 report. The security agencies must operate to the very highest standards House might also bear in mind, even though Dissolution in terms of protecting the values of liberty and justice is near, that it might not want to sacrifice the opportunity that this great country of ours represents and espouses. for the new Parliament to discuss formally, in its own We also know, however, that those same agencies have time, the ’09-’10 report. My instincts are to say that I to protect the lives and limbs of British people. I hope should be flexible today. However, it will be on record that in future, when journalists, commentators, the judiciary that the House approves this motion, and it is still open and Members of this Parliament draw in breath to to Parliament, at some point or other, to seek to have a launch their assaults on the agencies and on the Ministers further formal resolution on the ’09-’10 report. I hope who have to answer for their actions in this place, they that that is helpful. will pause for a moment to consider the likely effects of those assaults on the confidence and morale of the Andrew Mackinlay: Further to that point of order, brave and talented men and women we count on to Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am very grateful to you for that protect us and our democracy at home and abroad. advice, particularly for your final comments, but may I ask you to clarify and amplify them? As I understand the rubrics of the House, every annual report has to be Andrew Mackinlay: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy reported to the House. I am looking to our successors in Speaker. I ask both for your guidance and, I believe, for the new Parliament in saying that we should safeguard the protection of this House. If you look at today’s jealously their right to have a full debate on the 2009-10 Order Paper, you will see that we are being invited to report on a substantive motion. Surely that is correct. I consider the annual report of the Intelligence and Security think that that is what you are saying, Mr. Deputy Committee for 2008-09. Listening to the remarks of the Speaker, but if I do nothing else I want to ensure that Chairman of the Committee and given, from what I we say unequivocally that it is a matter for the next understand informally, what will be said by the three Parliament to deal with that report. parties’ Front Benchers, it seems that that report is being conflated with the report for 2009-10, which was Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. available in the Vote Office only today. When I went to Gentleman. I think it is quite clear that under the terms the Vote Office this morning and said, “Can I have the of the motion before the House, formal approval can be documents for today’s debate?”, I was, quite rightly, given only to the 2008-09 report. The House will therefore given only the report for 2008-09. It was only through still require, whether formally or at length, to give its listening to the Chairman of the Committee and having approval or otherwise to the 2009-10 report in future. had informal discussions with colleagues that it dawned on me that he—and, it would seem, Front Benchers, Mr. Cash: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy although I do not rush to judgment on that—are in the Speaker. I was somewhat surprised to hear reference to business of conflating the two. That is not only alien to the report for the subsequent year. I notice that the what is on the Order Paper but an affront to Parliament, motion refers not only to the report for 2008-09 but to because the document relating to 2009-10 has only just the Government’s response. I wonder whether part of been published. the reason why we are not considering the later report is Surely, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is an outrage that this that there is no Government response to go with it. has happened, particularly against the backdrop of the views of people like myself. I think that this Committee— Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Government’s response to well, you will have got my drift because you have heard the 2009-10 report has also been published, but perhaps it year after year. Can you tell us what we are discussing not in time for all right hon. and hon. Members to have today? I ask you jealously to safeguard the Order Paper had notice of it and to consider any remarks that they and insist that our debate relates to what is on the Order might wish to make in relation to it. That is why I Paper, with nothing relating to the 2009-10 report, suggest to the House that it should confine its appetite which must be dealt with on a separate occasion by the to look at the 2009-10 report and response, because House of Commons if it is to provide proper scrutiny. there will, by obligation, be a motion to come forward on that report at some time in the future. However, Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Iam because that report is there and some hon. Members grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who gave me some little have had the opportunity to see it, I do not want to be notice of the point of order that he was going to raise. over-rigid in my rulings when there is an opportunity to As I understand it, the terms of the motion, which allude to it in the context of what is in the 2008-09 relate to the ’08-’09 report, were tabled on behalf of the report. I am trying to be as helpful as I can, and I hope Committee, so strictly speaking, that is the motion that that does help. before the House. It is a question of the circumstances that we are in as to how narrowly or how widely I rule 1.12 pm on this particular matter. I am thinking of the London bus syndrome—you wait a long time for one and then The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth two come along together. It is as recently as this morning Affairs (David Miliband): Given that it seems that the that the second report has appeared. It would seem Committee tabled the motion, not the Government, it is 1003 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1004 nice to be able to open a debate without having to report to the Prime Minister and through him to Parliament. apologise for something that the Government have done As my right hon. Friend said, however, effective oversight or failed to do. I will bear your comments in mind is not the same as openness. Because the ISC meets in carefully, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I frame my remarks. private, and because its reports are redacted before Mr. Speaker warned us severely not to take too long on publication, some say that it cannot do a proper job of our speeches, and I shall try to be as brief as I can while holding the Government and the agencies to account. doing justice to the issues involved. In fact, the opposite is true. It is precisely because the I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to Committee operates inside the so-called ring of secrecy my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd that it can have access to material and question witnesses (Dr. Howells), who I think spoke for the whole ISC with on very sensitive issues to a degree that makes its passion and verve. I thank him for his outstanding work scrutiny effective. In my experience, its dialogue, debate over the past 18 months, and I also thank his colleagues. and probing questions speak to that. That is not an easy The right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) message to get across, but it must be said. has sat on the Committee for 16 years, and my hon. Andrew Mackinlay: I do not accept the Foreign Friend the Member for Wirral, South (Ben Chapman) Secretary’s premise. I illustrate my opinion with the fact and the right hon. and learned Member for Devizes that in 2008, either the Prime Minister or the Foreign (Mr. Ancram) have also served on it with distinction. In Secretary himself instructed Sir David Omand to produce my experience they are all men of principle and passion, a report about the loss of documents on a train. In our and they have discharged their responsibilities with a debate on 7 May 2009, at column 433 of the Official view not just to the task that the House has given them Report, I drew attention to the fact that the report of but to the duties given to them by the country, which the ISC, which at the time was headed up by my right expects the parliamentary aspect of oversight to be as hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy), effective as the ministerial and legal aspects. I thank said: them sincerely for the work that they have done and wish them well in the future, and I hope we can do “At the time of writing, the Committee is still awaiting the sight of Sir David’s report”. justice to their work. I criticised Sir David Omand, and a very hurt Sir David I have felt at times that the annual reports of the ISC, Omand wrote to me saying, “It’s not my fault, it’s the and indeed its work as a whole, have not received the Government and the Prime Minister who are still sitting attention that they deserve in Parliament or outside. I on my report. It is not my property.” There is no know that a number of dedicated hon. Members, to reference to any of that in the report that we are now their credit, follow intelligence and security issues closely. discussing, which illustrates the attitude of “Couldn’t My right hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd talked care less, don’t listen to the debate—valid point, but let’s about the lack of credit given to the Committee for its just ignore it.” Can we have a response to that issue in work. One important lesson of the past year or two is this debate? It shows how flawed the system is and how that more public discussion of the work done by the contemptuous some people, whose names I do not different branches of the accountability system, and of know, are of this House. the dilemmas and challenges posed by the modern world, is welcome. It is a good thing in the drive for Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the Foreign demystification, which my right hon. Friend rightly said Secretary answers, I say to the hon. Gentleman that was important. these interventions are getting very long, and I hope he The issues involved are complex and profound. That will not exhaust his fund of knowledge so that he has is true not just of the policy issues, some of which I nothing to say later. shall touch on, but of the governance issues. The Intelligence Services Act 1994 was intended to balance secrecy and David Miliband: My hon. Friend raises a point of accountability. Secrecy is necessary for the effectiveness principle and another specific point. He has the perfectly of our intelligence agencies, and accountability—not legitimate point of view that something that is not just the fact but the perception of it—is necessary for conducted in the public domain cannot be effective. I their legitimacy. That accountability cannot be of a do not agree with him, but I recognise that that is his normal kind, but it must be thorough, systematic and point of view. I agree with my right hon. Friend the effective. Any organisation depends on appropriate oversight Member for Pontypridd, the Chairman of the Committee, as well as good management, and the intelligence agencies who says that if it met only in public, it would have far are no different. less impact as an accountability mechanism than it does The two ISC reports before us—the one referred to in in its current form, however imperfect or in need of the motion and the one that we are allowed tangentially reform it is. to refer to—are serious pieces of work. As I said recently On the specific question of the Omand review, I will in another debate, there is a myth that our security and have to get some work done this afternoon and ask the intelligence services operate without independent oversight. Minister for Europe to respond to my hon. Friend. The That is not true. The Government want a strong and issue of lost laptops is not referred to in the 2008-09 robust ISC, and as far as I am concerned it is vital for ISC report, because that was in a separate review by any Secretary of State to know that all the checks and Sir David Omand and was not to do with particular balances work properly. That includes checking ISC documents. I am not even sure whether they were organisations for which Secretaries of State are responsible. Security Service documents, but I will ask the Minister Last year, the High Court called the ISC to fill the House in on that when he speaks. “a very significant means of democratic accountability.” It is important to be open where we can. Important Independent judicial oversight is different. It is provided steps have been made to bring aspects of the intelligence by the Intelligence Services Commissioner and the community into the light since the 1994 Act, for which Interception of Communications Commissioner, who the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington and 1005 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1006

[David Miliband] Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes) (Con): Members of the Committee have thought very carefully about the Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) claimed some responsibility prospect of public hearings, and have wanted to find a in an intervention. He rightly made the point that we way of holding them. However, it is a question not cannot allow bodies such as the ISC simply to stand simply of patsy hearings, but of choosing real subjects still; they should develop. Of course, until 1994, even that are not suddenly going to disappear because one the existence of the Secret Intelligence Service was asks a question to which the security chiefs must answer, officially denied. In the early years, ISC reports contained “I can’t tell you.” The Foreign Secretary was talking no published figures for agency expenditure, for example, about priorities and security. Would we not get close to but that has now changed. The latest report contains that situation if we began examining why a certain more unredacted data on the funding and administration aspect of security was a priority against another without of the agencies than ever before. going into the detail of the information behind that? However, that does not mean that we should not seek to go further. Since 2007, we have made a number of David Miliband: I completely accept that the right proposals for ways to strengthen the role of the Committee, hon. Gentleman and other members of the Committee including an offer to discuss how it might hold some have gone back and forth on that issue. Public hearings annual evidence sessions in public, which was raised by need to go alongside more public discussion of the my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd, who ISC’s role in the accountability process. The first rightly said—I think this is more or less correct—that a responsibility is for Ministers and agency heads to patsy session is not worth having. That must be true, uphold the law of the land and the values of the nation. but equally, demystification is important, and there are The second responsibility is that there are parliamentary points of principle and judgment that can be discussed oversight bodies. Thirdly, the commissioners to whom I openly. Actually, the public debate would benefit from a referred and—fourthly—the courts, provide the ultimate more public discussion of such things. means of redress for any citizen who believes that their I believe that the country would also benefit from a rights have been abused. It is important to fill out the more open discussion of the priorities given to different public discussion. That could be useful. There will be a kinds of threats, which the Committee has raised in degree of choreography in any public hearings, because successive reports. There is some meat for public discussions some issues are within the remit to which my hon. that would not put Committee members in an impossible Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) position, in which they would be required to give advance referred, and some are not. However, from the Government’s notice of all their questions to they extent that they point of view, it is worth continuing to work on that. become patsy questions, nor would Ministers or agency heads be put in a position in which their answers look Mr. Davey: This is not simply about public hearings, pathetic—for example, if they had to say, “I can’t but about the public having confidence in the ISC’s answer that question.” It is sobering to be reminded work. As I said to the Chairman of the Committee, that that the debate on public sessions has been going on includes ensuring that the Committee has the full resources since 2001, but as I said, my reflection is that it is worth it needs to undertake its investigations. Will the Foreign trying to demystify and demythologise the process. I Secretary address that point about resources? hope that the Committee can take that forward. David Miliband: To be fair, I was coming on to that. Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, We should always look at the Committee’s procedures East) (Lab): My right hon. Friend is completely right and its siting, meaning the Government body under that some issues could be aired in public sessions with which it works—that important issue was raised in the heads of the agencies or, for that matter, even previous reports—but we should also look at resources. Ministers on some occasions. However, it is important As it happens, one issue that has been raised in the past that we carefully delineate that which can be discussed is the question of an investigator, and an investigator in public and that which inevitably, because of its has now been added to the Committee’s staff. The nature, would have to be discussed privately. increase in the Committee’s resources has been faster David Miliband: I strongly agree. The ISC is not a than that of general Government spending, which is a normal committee. It looks at activities that are, by good thing—it has more or less mirrored the rise in definition, abnormal. It is vital that the ring of secrecy spend of the intelligence agencies themselves. The is preserved. If it is not, the whole purpose of the Committee needs expert staff and the right kind of Committee will be lost. resources— Mr. Winnick: Despite what the Chairman of the Mr. Mates rose— Committee said, I am not in favour of an ordinary Select Committee format, with continuous public sessions, Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con) rose— as I indicated to him. That cannot be done. Some might disagree, but it is my view that the bulk of the Committee’s David Miliband: Let me make some progress on that work must, by its very nature, be done in private. point. I am a quarter of the way through a thought, However, surely, as the Foreign Secretary has been never mind a sentence. saying, public sessions from time to time could be held when we discuss matters such as articles written by the It is important that the Committee gets the resources head of MI5. it needs, because, from the Government’s point of view, a strong ISC is an important part of building confidence David Miliband: I strongly agree—that is a good in its work, not just among the public, but among point. Ministers and Parliament. 1007 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1008

Mr. Mates: The Foreign Secretary is praising the David Miliband: The agencies that the Committee Government for having given us an investigator—we holds accountable are responsible to me and to the will gloss over the fact that it took about seven or eight Home Secretary. GCHQ and the SIS report to me and months to get him on parade. However, what does he then to the Prime Minister, and the Security Service think of the fact that the Committee asked the Cabinet reports to the Home Secretary. However, I take the Office to let the investigator, in the interregnum between point of principle that my right hon. Friend makes, and this Committee and the next, pursue two totally I assure him that the Government have no interest in uncontroversial items—developed vetting and how it is sticking to a relationship that does not work. If the handled in a different way by all three agencies—but the relationship is not working satisfactorily and seriously, Cabinet Office said, “No. It wouldn’t be proper for the we have to address it. That is the basis on which I will Committee to do that until after the election”? Once consider our next step with colleagues. again, that has been kicked into touch. Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The Foreign Secretary will, I David Miliband: Let me look into that. As the right think, agree that the speech by the Chair of the Committee hon. Gentleman will know from the numerous appearances about what he described as the interference in the that I have made in front of the Committee, I think that independence of the Committee was the most severe a culture of saying no to an idea because it has not been public condemnation of interference that I can recall in thought of before is absolutely hopeless in that regard. the whole 16 years that the Committee has operated. If, in fact, the knee-jerk reaction is always to say no, we I am not a member of the Committee, but will the must change it. I did not actually know of the case he Foreign Secretary acknowledge that there must be a real mentioned, but in my experience, when Ministers are issue for the Chair to have expressed himself publicly in presented with such questions, they do not want to go such severe and unambiguous terms in this debate? He with the knee-jerk reaction and say no, but want to go made it clear that it was not the agencies whom he was with the drive to have a strong accountability system. accusing of that interference, which made it obvious That is certainly what the Prime Minister, the Home whom he was accusing. Will the Foreign Secretary Secretary and I want. acknowledge the seriousness of what has been raised In its latest report, the ISC made some administrative today and give some indication of how he proposes to proposals about which I know there strong feelings—after respond to it? listening to the contribution of my right hon. Friend the David Miliband: To be accurate, one does not have to Member for Pontypridd, I realise that they are stronger guess to whom the Chairman was referring: he was than I had thought. Those will be seriously considered referring to what he called the “Whitehall machine” and and discussed, but they raise some quite tricky issues of specifically to the Cabinet Office staff. practice and principle. For example, the proposal to link the ISC budget to the intelligence agency budgets is Dr. Howells indicated assent. novel—our information is that that does not happen anywhere else. I believe that that could tie us in knots. David Miliband: I see my right hon. Friend nods. I Surely the baseline is to take seriously the commitment said earlier that there are hard-working staff in the not only to independence, which I will come to later, but Cabinet Office as well as on the ISC. There have been to the proper resources to do the job. If there is a particular administrative issues this year that have added compelling case that the resources are not available to a lot of tension to the relationship, and members of the do the job, the resources should be given to the Committee, Committee know that, as do the Government. We need whether that is to do with the expertise of the staff or to ensure that the Committee is not diverted by matters overall funding. of administrative feuding, but is instead able to focus I was struck today by the force with which my right on the job at hand. hon. Friend made the case about the allegedly baleful influence of the Cabinet Office on the Committee’s Mr. Cash: The Foreign Secretary will know that in proceedings. There are hard-working staff on the Committee the Government’s reply to the annual report for 2009-10, and in the Cabinet Office, many with genuine expertise. the Government state: We will look further at the question of whether changing “The Government is absolutely and fundamentally committed the administrative label to the Ministry of Justice would to robust and rigorous independent scrutiny of the intelligence have the impact that he suggests. and” scrutiny committee. It so happens that in paragraphs R Mr. George Howarth: My right hon. Friend makes and S and the replies to them, there are severe strictures two points about our suggestion. The first is in relation that the Chairman of the Committee did not mention to the budget. There is probably no exact formula that regarding the independence and the distinct and separate would fit the situation, but there must be—this is why role of the professional head of intelligence analysis. In we support that particular formula—some relationship the Government’s reply and in an attempt to justify the between the level of resources and work that the agencies situation, they say: do and the need for them to be supervised. That is how “While it is true that the same individual holds both positions, we came up with that formula. the roles are distinct and can be performed in parallel without As for the relationship with the Cabinet Office, our damaging the independence of the Deputy PHIA”. case is not that we do not respect the various officials Does the Foreign Secretary not realise that that is a very who work in the Cabinet Office—although that may be serious criticism, as my right hon. and learned Friend true in some cases—it is that we are beholden to a the Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Department while at the same time responsible for Rifkind) has said, and can he say why it is that the supervising part of its activities. That is not a healthy Government and the Committee are at loggerheads relationship. over this very important question? 1009 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1010

David Miliband: It is an important question, but it is countries—as they must do to protect national security—if a completely different question from the one that we they follow their guidance they can have good reason to have been discussing—[Interruption.] It is a different be confident that they will not incur personal liability. question, and the hon. Gentleman helpfully read out There is an issue of personnel practice here as well as of the Government’s view of the role of the PHIA— Government policy. We have been discussing legal issues with the Committee as well as policy ones. I welcome Mr. Cash: It is about independence. the positive and intense engagement that we have had with the ISC on the draft guidance since it was first sent David Miliband: Yes, and as the hon. Gentleman will it in November 2009, and I am very grateful for the recall from the Butler report and elsewhere, the proposals detailed and thought-provoking advice that it has recently that the Government have put in place have shown that provided. lessons have been learned from the difficulties that That advice highlighted a number of areas warranting existed then. further work or clarification by the Government with the Committee. I will discuss those issues further with Mr. Mates indicated assent. the Committee in the relatively near future. The Government share the Committee’s desire to bring this issue to David Miliband: I am glad that the right hon. Member closure and remain committed to doing so at the earliest for East Hampshire agrees. We have taken the right possible date. It is precisely because of the seriousness lessons in the way in which we have taken the issue with which the Government regard this issue and the forward. The independence of the Committee is a separate respect we have for the views of the ISC that we want to point, and the Government are absolutely committed to ensure that there is no room for misunderstanding our that independence. It must have the resources and the policy, and that we use the Committee’s thinking to freedom to do its work. It must have the ability to ensure that the guidance is comprehensive, appropriate question Ministers and agency heads without fear or and correct. favour, and that is what the Government are determined I want to repeat unambiguously what I and my right to achieve. hon. Friend the Home Secretary have said before. The Government absolutely condemn torture. We do not Mark Pritchard: Given that the Foreign Secretary has practice it, we do not condone it and we are not complicit told the House that there has been administrative feuding in it. Where wrongdoing is alleged, it is seriously investigated. and given that this country now has more not fewer When passing information to another country that enemies, when will he come back to the House with his might lead to suspects being detained, when passing conclusions about the current relationship between the questions to be put to detainees or when directly ISC and the Cabinet Office and whether it needs to interviewing them, our agencies are required to seek to change? minimise, and where possible avoid, the risk of any form of mistreatment. Enormous effort goes into assessing David Miliband: What I actually said was that the risks in each case. Operations have been halted when administrative feuding should not divert the Committee the risk was judged to be too high. But it is not possible from the vital work that it has to do. I take seriously to eradicate the risk altogether. Judgments must be what the Chairman has said about the relationship with made if the British people and British forces are to be the Cabinet Office. We have further work to do in this protected. It is right that Ministers should make those Parliament, and no doubt we can cover that, among judgments. other topics to which I shall now turn. The intense interest in the guidance on torture and I want to move on from the process of the Committee mistreatment is entirely understandable, but it should to the issues with which it deals. The Government are not obscure the fact that much else in the two ISC determined to defend the rights on which our freedom reports—or one report and another one in brackets—is depends and to protect the safety and security of our worth attention. I am sure that hon. Members will want citizens, and the Chairman discussed both those concerns. to raise other issues, and we will respond as fully as we The threat we face is real and ongoing, and no one can. The reports make clear the variety of threats to our denies that. In response to several serious allegations national security that we face, of which international about the intelligence and security agencies, the Prime terrorism is the most prominent and the one that most Minister announced last year that the Government obviously occupies our attention and that of the agencies. would consolidate and make public the guidance we It is due in large part to their dedication and skill that provide to the agencies’ officers and military personnel this country has not suffered another successful attack who may become engaged in handling detainees overseas. of the sort we tragically experienced on 7 July 2005. At That is both to protect the reputation of those officers the same time, the fact that we have disrupted a number and service personnel and to set out to the British of major terrorist plots since 2005—there was the near- public the responsible way in which we approach these success of the attempt to bring down a transatlantic difficult issues. This is an unprecedented and extremely airliner over Detroit on Christmas day—shows that we difficult step and the process has taken much longer cannot let down our guard. than we envisaged or would have wished. It has taken that time because the approach has been thorough and Mr. Davey: I would like to take the Foreign Secretary serious. back to the guidance. He says that he wants to publish it As the ISC has recognised and articulated so clearly, at the earliest possible opportunity, but can he say a it is vital that our intelligence officers and military little more about what that means, in terms of actual personnel have the clearest possible assurance that, dates, and can he assure the House that when it is when they engage with their counterparts in other published, it will be so without any redactions? 1011 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1012

David Miliband: I can say that we will meet as soon as 1.43 pm possible, given the travel commitments of the Committee, Mr. William Hague (Richmond, Yorks) (Con): I welcome which is away next week, and those of myself on the this opportunity to acknowledge the valuable role performed Monday and Tuesday of the week after. Certainly, by the Intelligence and Security Committee and its however, the guidance will be published without redactions. members from all parties, in particular those retiring It is very important that it is published without redactions, from the House—my right hon. and learned Friend the because it is there for officers, and to give them clarity. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), my right hon. There will be no redactions in the guidance when it is Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), published. the hon. Member for Wirral, South (Ben Chapman) The staff of the agencies are also addressing an and, of course, the right hon. Member for Pontypridd increasing range of other threats. Their work provides (Dr. Howells). I salute the latter for his chairmanship of vital support on a daily basis to the safety of our troops the Committee, his memorable speech today, to which I in Afghanistan: they are actively countering the proliferation wish to return, and his 21 years in the House. He and of weapons of mass destruction; helping the fight against I are parliamentary twins—we might not look like it, the trafficking of drugs and other forms of international but we came into this House in a pair of by-elections organised crime; and supporting our efforts at conflict 21 years ago, and we have been good friends ever since, prevention and stabilisation around the world. The fortified by a common interest in foreign affairs and a Government’s recent Green Paper on defence emphasised passion for everything Welsh. I, personally, will miss the uncertain global political and economic environment. him very much in the Chamber. When uncertainty and unpredictability are key features This is a very important and interesting debate. of the international picture, policy makers’ need for I apologise in advance, however, because, given that I good intelligence to help us to understand the dangers have to give a speech this evening, hundreds of miles and chart a course is all the greater. away, I will not be here for the winding-up speeches. The Government have responded to that challenge by However, the Committee’s annual report for 2008-09, increasing the resources available to the agencies, as we and now for 2009-10, reminds us of the sheer breadth of have discussed. As the ISC’s latest report makes clear, the responsibilities of the UK’s intelligence and security the single intelligence account was increased by 15 per agencies. As the Foreign Secretary has said, they protect cent. in 2008-09, and by a further 8 per cent. in 2009-10, this country against not only terrorism in all its forms, and it will increase by a further 7 per cent. in the next but espionage, weapons of mass destruction, cyber-attacks year. Hon. Members will recognise that these are very and threats from unstable regions. They also support substantial sums and visible evidence of our commitment UK military forces in Afghanistan and elsewhere. to the security and safety of all our people. We owe a great deal to the members of these agencies. In the recent words—it was a good summary—of a distinguished former director general of the Security Mark Pritchard: I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary Service, they are for giving way; he is being very generous. Will he not “men and women of different backgrounds, beliefs and ethnicity accept, however, that the ISC report also suggests that who wish to work, without any chance of personal fame, or there is not enough resourcing for counter-espionage recognised success, because they believe in the UK, its rights and activity? Why is that the case, given that such activity freedoms and because they wish to protect it, as far as they are has increased, according to the confession of the director able against threats”. general of the Security Service himself? Will the Foreign That we have so many people prepared to work on that Secretary look into that and ensure that it is put right? basis is a great asset to this country, and we could not do for an hour or a day without them. The scale of the threat from terrorism has perhaps David Miliband: As I have said in the House on a made it inevitable that the Committee has devoted an number of occasions, the fact that the budget is increasing increasing amount of time in recent years to that issue, does not mean that there are not choices to be made. with four reports having been published: a March 2005 There is no question about where our priorities have special report into the handling of detainees in Iraq, been focused over the past year or two. The counter- Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, a special report espionage issues that the hon. Gentleman raises are three years ago into rendition, and two—I think— serious, and as I have discussed with the Committee, we unpublished reports into the Binyam Mohamed case take its strictures very seriously in that regard. and the treatment and interviewing of detainees overseas. Let me end on a note of—I think—unanimity.Whatever I think that the House will agree that the wider issues their level of financial resources, the agencies’ success thrown up in the course of these inquires—about the depends on their staff. That is important in respect of nature of our irreplaceable intelligence relationship with the guidance. I want to pay tribute to their skills, the United States and the balancing of the needs of dedication and commitment to public service. They national security with the requirements of accountability hold themselves to exceptionally high standards, and it in our democratic society—go to the heart of the protection is important to say that they are as committed as any of the security of our nation. We therefore welcomed parliamentarian to upholding the laws and ethics of the the commitments made by the Prime Minister a year country. Their work is necessarily largely unknown and ago today—on 18 March 2009—when he said that the unsung, and they are unable to defend themselves when Government would take action to faced with often ill-informed criticism. I know from my “protect the reputation of our security and intelligence services own travels how much they are respected across the and to reassure ourselves that everything has been done to world by our friends and allies, and I am sure all hon. ensure that our practices are in line with United Kingdom Members will agree that they deserve our gratitude. and international law”. 1013 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1014

[Mr. William Hague] a week ago, however, the information was to be provided before today’s debate. The Government’s proceedings Such action was clearly needed, and we have supported are not only slow but incompetent. They continually the Government in giving the Attorney-General time to make these commitments, but this does not fortify review allegations of complicity in torture, as well as public confidence in their approach to the work of the respecting the role of the Committee in assessing and Committee or in the way in which our intelligence reporting on developments. We have also recognised services operate. that there are current legal proceedings that have to be taken into account by the Government. However, it Mr. Davey: The right hon. Gentleman is making a seems extraordinary that they have been so slow—a powerful point, and he has our full support on this theme of Government slowness now runs through this matter. Is there not also a serious issue of substance debate—in fulfilling the Prime Minster’s commitments behind the fact that, without the new guidance coming to the House. Those were commitments that he said into force, our security services are working under the were important to old guidance? Presumably, that guidance is no longer comprehensive, which could raise further questions. “put beyond doubt the terms under which our agencies and service personnel operate”.—[Official Report, 12 March 2009; Mr. Hague: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Vol. 489, c. 55WS.] That should be a major concern, and there are others This slowness is part of a pattern of unfulfilled that I shall come to in a moment. commitments, extreme tardiness, administrative confusion and evidently threats to the independence of the Committee, Mr. Mates: I noticed the Foreign Secretary wincing for which Ministers must be held responsible. slightly when my right hon. Friend said that the delay was due to incompetence. Why does not he ask the The first of the Prime Minister’s commitments was to Foreign Secretary why the guidance was delayed at the publish the guidance given to intelligence officers—the last minute? Foreign Secretary has just been talking about this—and service personnel about the standards that we apply Mr. Hague: My right hon. Friend is quite right to ask during the detention and interviewing of detainees overseas. that question, and if the Foreign Secretary wishes to He said that the guidance would need to be consolidated intervene on me in order to explain that to the House, I and reviewed by the Committee before publication. Yet am sure that the whole House would welcome his the right hon. Member for Pontypridd has described contribution. how it took a full eight months for the Prime Minister to allow the Committee to see the guidance, despite his David Miliband: Iamveryhappytodoso.The repeated requests. It will be a matter of concern and Committee has raised some very important issues about surprise to the House that the guidance was only handed the way in which the guidance is organised and phrased, over on 18 November last year, well after the date on and we want to ensure that we take them fully on board. which the Committee would have been able to scrutinise I am going to meet the Committee again, with my right it as part of this annual review—a delay that Ministers hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and it seems to me have not even attempted to explain, except to say that it that that is the right thing to do. The most important is a difficult process. thing is to get this guidance right, and that is what is The Foreign Secretary spoke, throughout his speech, determining every single aspect of the Government’s about the need for a strong and robust Intelligence and work on this issue. Security Committee, but recently the Government have Mr. Hague: I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for not been treating that Committee as being entitled to be that, but, if I may, I shall offer my own translation of strong and robust. The most immediate consequence of what he has just said. My hypothesis is that the Government the delay is that Parliament is not only debating this did not want to publish the Committee’s report because issue today without having been able to examine the it was highly critical, and that the detainee guidance is detainee guidance, which has still not been published, now in the process of being frantically rewritten. Of but is doing so without having the benefit of the course it is important to get it right, but if that is the Committee’s assessment of that guidance. situation, the Prime Minister should not have told the In his statement just last week, the Chairman said Chairman of the Committee a week ago that it would that his Committee had been assured by the Prime all be published in good time for this debate. Clearly, Minister that both the report and the guidance would the work is not going on to bring it to a conclusion at be published “in good time” before today’s debate. I the earliest possible opportunity. imagine that, having made a public statement to that It is also surprising and, in my view, potentially effect, the right hon. Gentleman is now a little disappointed damaging, that references to the guidance have been that these assurances have not been kept. The fact that published in the FCO’s human rights report—also published they have not been kept merits more explanation from this morning; it is extraordinary how many things have Ministers about the delay. been published this morning—because that will lead to The Foreign Secretary has just said that the guidance many questions being asked about the guidance without will be published at the earliest possible opportunity, it actually being available. I was surprised to see those but he then went on to point out that the Committee references being published in the human rights report would be away all next week, and that he would be away without the details being made available. for the first two days of the following week. As I Another result of the delay—in addition to the understand it, the House will then go into recess, and consequence that the hon. Member for Kingston and the election will be called the week after that, unless it is Surbiton (Mr. Davey) has just pointed out—is that the not going to happen until June. The earliest possible Prime Minister’s second pledge designed to restore public opportunity is therefore not going to be very early. Only confidence, which was to task the intelligence services 1015 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1016 commissioner with monitoring compliance with the not a substitution, because the Committee has unanimously guidance and reporting to the Prime Minister annually, signed off the report that has gone to the Prime Minister. has not even got under way. I learned in a written I hope that that is helpful. answer from the Prime Minister three weeks ago that the commissioner cannot begin this work until the guidance has been published. Mr. Hague: It is very helpful. Indeed, we have just learned more from my right hon. Friend in a couple of It would not have been unreasonable for the House, moments there than we learned from the Foreign Secretary having heard the Prime Minister make his pledge a year in several attempts to gain information over the past ago, to have expected the commissioner to produce his 20 minutes. It is an entirely legitimate process for the first report by about now. At the current pace, however, Committee to have taken those hearings, done that there will be no report to Parliament by the commissioner work and given a different view from that of the on this issue until some time in 2011, which will be at Government. It is legitimate for work to be done to try least two years after the Prime Minister’s statement. to reconcile those views or to see whether the Committee’s That is why this extreme tardiness is more than just advice should be taken. The problem clearly lies in the tardiness; it reveals incompetence right in the middle of eight-month delay before all that started. That reflects the Government. There does not appear to be any the lack of urgency in the process, which did not correspond effective ministerial control of these issues, taken as a to the strong statements by the Prime Minister a year ago. whole.

Sir Malcolm Rifkind: As my right hon. Friend is quite Mr. Cash: In the context of what we have just heard, likely, in a few weeks’ time, to be sitting where the and without in any way criticising the Chairman of the Foreign Secretary is sitting now, will he give the House Committee, may I say that it is becoming abundantly an assurance that among his first priorities will be the clear that the information that is being elicited by my publication of the guidance, as well as giving the work right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks of the Committee the priority that he is quite rightly (Mr. Hague) is greater than that which we were given by drawing to our attention? the Chairman of the Committee? Without making any criticism of the current Chairman, does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a need to ensure that the Mr. Hague: Given all that I have said, it would be a chairmanship of that Committee is occupied by an very high priority to get that guidance published, although Opposition member? I do not know what state it is in. So I cannot say that, on the first day of a new Government, we are going to— Mr. Hague: I am not going to join in any criticism of Mr. Davey: Getting your excuses in early! the Chairman of the Committee, because he gave a trenchant and powerful speech and, as I explained earlier, he has been a good friend of mine for 21 years, Mr. Hague: Yes, I am already anticipating the problems. and I am not going to be nasty about him just as he is But we do not know what state it is in. leaving the House. I would not do that anyway, because he was clear in his speech about the difficulties that the Mr. Mates rose— Committee has been facing. I have no dogmatic view about where the chairmanship of the Committee should Mr. Hague: The Committee knows, and perhaps my lie. In a Committee of this kind, I think that that right hon. Friend will be able to enlighten us on that. depends much more on the individual than on the party that they belong to. Also, I am not sure that the Opposition would necessarily want to take the chairmanship of this Mr. Mates: The House would benefit from a little Committee, if that meant that they would lose a more openness about what the problem is. There were chairmanship elsewhere in our Committee system. I eight months between the Prime Minister’s statement have no fixed view about that, however, and we can and the Committee receiving the guidance. There were a listen to representations about the matter in the future. number of good reasons for that: it is very complex, and it had to go round the Law Officers and all the other I should like to proceed with the procession of tardiness Departments. We then got stuck into it, took evidence, that I was going through in my speech. An even better and published to the Prime Minister our report on that illustration of it is the fact that the 2008-09 report that guidance, with recommendations. So the draft guidance we are debating today has already been superseded by and the report both exist, and they are the property of the Committee’s next annual report, which it submitted the Prime Minister. to the Prime Minister a week before he allowed this one to be released, and which was made available to Parliament The problem is that there is a difference of opinion at about 10 o’clock this morning—at least, that is when about something that we have written in our report, I received it, only a couple of hours before this debate which needs to be resolved. That is not going to change began. That is insulting to the House of Commons, to our report, however. Whether it changes the Government’s the intelligence services and to the Committee. It is guidance or not is another matter. I hope that that helps another example of the mounting incompetence that the House to understand where the dilemma is, because the Government have demonstrated on these matters. that is at the heart of the matter. We have reported, and that report must, at some stage, be published. Further I note that the right hon. Member for Pontypridd has interviews will take place with the Foreign Secretary complained about the delay, pointing out that the 2008-09 and the Home Secretary in 10 days’ time, and if that report is considerably out of date as a result, which also changes something that we write, it will be an addition, does little to reassure the public and Parliament that we 1017 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1018

[Mr. Hague] other way of drawing a line, thereby helping the services and agencies to move on and satisfying the public that are being kept fully abreast of any relevant issues. In his the issues have been addressed. comments in the report published only this morning, he Let me turn to some of the issues raised in the also complained that it has been 2008-09 report. The most significant development since “a matter of grave concern to the Committee” the House last debated the Committee’s work is the that its Court of Appeal’s decision in February to order the “independence has been threatened over the last twelve months”. disclosure of seven paragraphs based on US intelligence information describing aspects of the detention of former That is a striking thing for the Chairman of the Committee Guantanamo Bay detainee Mr. Binyam Mohamed. We to feel constrained to say. None of the members of the have always held that the intelligence co-operation Committee, from any part of the House, strikes me as relationship between the US and the UK is unique in being an unreasonable or strident person, so the fact the world and of immense value to both countries, and that they could become so angry about a matter that is that its disruption would have serious consequences for generally approached in a cross-party spirit of working our national security. together speaks volumes about the conduct of Ministers or ministries in that regard. As the Foreign Secretary will recall, we have argued in this instance that we could have tried to uphold the Mark Pritchard: Does my right hon. Friend agree principle of control of intelligence while seeking an that the tardiness of the Government on the issue might exception from the United States in the specific case of be interpreted incorrectly outside this House as the Mr. Mohamed. We do not know whether that would tardiness of the security services, which would be most have succeeded, but it remains our view that it would unfortunate indeed, given the praise that the Foreign have been a better course of action than having the Secretary himself rightly gave? matter dragged through the courts, which had the effect of fuelling the accusation that the UK was withholding Mr. Hague: It would be most unfortunate, although I evidence and exposed our relationship with the US to hope that people would not think that, because they particular strain. I hope when the Minister winds up should not. Knowing what I do about our intelligence that he will comment on whether the Government see and security services, and knowing what I do about the the need to take any further action to reassure the Cabinet Office and one or two other Departments, I am House and the United States about upholding the principle 100 per cent. clear where the delay lies, and I assure my of control. hon. Friend that it will not be with the people working Given all that Ministers have said about the importance in our security and intelligence agencies. of the intelligence relationship with the US—sentiments Taking those things together, the Government will that we endorse—it is all the more extraordinary that continue to be suspected—and quite rightly in many some parts of the Government, albeit not Foreign quarters—of wishing to suppress difficult issues or to Office Ministers, have shown something of a cavalier delay their consideration until after a general election. attitude to that relationship in recent months. Commenting The intelligence services and the country as a whole will on the Detroit bomb plot, the Prime Minister’s official suffer from the Government’s failure to draw a line spokesman said to the press that under the issue. The whole House agrees that, as the “there was security information about this individual’s activities…that Foreign Secretary quite rightly said, torture and complicity was shared with the US authorities.” in torture are utterly unacceptable under any circumstances. That was interpreted as implying that Britain had shared They are contrary to our international legal obligations information that could have averted the attack, breaching and contrary to what Britain stands for. The continued the principle that we do not comment on intelligence allegation that Britain might have been complicit in matters and eliciting an embarrassing dispute about torture, even in isolated cases, is used against us by whether information was passed or not. those who serially commit human rights abuses and That is not the way to co-operate with the United violations. States, and nor was the bungling of the Downing street We have always argued for full investigation of all statement of 2 January, in which it was claimed that the credible allegations of UK complicity and for action by Prime Minister had agreed with President Obama to the Government to draw a line under this episode, but it launch a new initiative to tackle al-Qaeda in Yemen. is much harder when the guidance has not even been However, the next day, after a senior Obama official published. There is a clear need to find a way to ensure said that he was that the problems of recent years have been investigated “unaware of any new joint effort,” and addressed—and to do so as expeditiously as possible— the Prime Minister admitted that the proposal was not and to draw a line, so that the UK intelligence and new, that security agencies can focus on the present and the “the truth is we’ve been doing this for some time,” future, without having to look back to the past all the time. This is a difficult issue, but in that regard we and that he had “not directly” spoken to Obama since would be inclined to have a judge-led inquiry to ensure the failed bombings. In our view the relationship with that the lessons have been learned and that processes our closest ally needs to be handled in a competent way, have been changed, where appropriate. The timing of in Downing street, as well as the Foreign Office and our such an inquiry would have to take current criminal embassies, yet it has not been handled in that way on proceedings into account and ensure that there is no those intelligence matters in recent months. risk of such proceedings being jeopardised. I know that On a closely related issue, the report contains significant the Foreign Secretary disagrees with that and is worried criticism of the Government’s handling of allegations about it, but the Government have failed to find any of rendition flights suspected of leading to torture. We 1019 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1020 have taken the view that rendition flights leading to of the work of the intelligence services. The report torture are unacceptable—of course—and held the points out that the national security forum announced Government to the repeated assurances provided by the by the Prime Minister in March 2008 did not have its then Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for members formally appointed until 2010, and questions Blackburn (Mr. Straw) in 2005 and 2006, that whether the forum is in fact a necessary part of the “the US had at no time since 9/11 rendered an individual through national security machinery. Those findings confirm the UK or through our overseas territories”. our view that a proper national security council approach However, we accepted in good faith the Government’s is needed, to avoid making decisions and creating explanation of events when it was discovered that those committees in such a haphazard way and with such assurances had turned out to be false, and that the US a questionable impact on the overall machinery of had in fact rendered individuals through Diego Garcia government. twice in 2002. When the Foreign Secretary informed the As for the work of the Committee itself, we note that House of that two years ago, he gave clear assurances “the Committee has requested a change in host Department in that order to ensure that there is a clear separation and to safeguard its independence.” “For the avoidance of doubt,” That request should not be rejected out of hand. The a full list of all flights of concern would be compiled Foreign Secretary said that he would look at it, but it is and specific assurances sought from the United States a bit late to notice that it needs to be looked at. The that Committee has been making the case for some time, “none of those flights was used for rendition purposes.”—[Official and there may be only nine or 10 sitting days left before Report, 21 February 2008; Vol. 472, c. 548.] the Dissolution of the current Parliament. It is therefore extremely concerning that the 2008-09 We believe there is a need for greater parliamentary annual report describes the Foreign Office as oversight from a strengthened Intelligence and Security “unable to respond adequately to allegations of UK knowledge Committee. We have presented our own proposals, but of, or involvement in, US rendition flights,” there are many variants of those proposals, some of concluding that which have been identified by other Members. I think that, after the coming election, any Government will “there is no guarantee that the information uncovered to date is in need to take them all into account. fact complete,” The report that we are considering is very important, and going on to say: as is the other report that appeared this morning. There “This situation is clearly unsatisfactory”. is an urgent need for the publication of all withheld The report also reveals that the Foreign Office told reports, and indeed for the guidance for which I, along the Committee that with other Members, have asked. It is probably too late “records on flights transiting Diego Garcia were only kept for in the current Parliament for Ministers to get their act three or five years and are therefore no longer available.” together on the wide range of matters on which they and their Departments have been criticised in today’s Given that concerns about rendition flights were raised debate, which probably adds to the case for them to in 2005, that suggests that records relating to flights in make way for Ministers who will. Even if such Ministers and out of the territory may have been destroyed while were in place, however, they would still have to get their Parliament and several Select Committees, including acts together, because the Government have not handled the Intelligence and Security Committee, were scrutinising their relations with the Committee, and their dealings these issues. Surely it would have been right and proper with its reports, with any distinction over the past year. for the Foreign Office to issue an instruction about record keeping and insist on additional scrupulous recording during that period. Do the Government accept the 2.11 pm Committee’s recommendation that Mr. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I am very pleased “the UK must be more robust in verifying” to be able to take part in the debate, because for three of assurances given about the use of Diego Garcia in the five years of the current Parliament I had the future, and if so, how will this be done? privilege of chairing the Intelligence and Security On funding, the whole House will be concerned by Committee. the Committee’s finding that particular areas of concern I echo my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd are not sufficiently resourced, in particular counter- (Dr. Howells) and others in paying tribute to the ISC’s espionage, and it will want to heed the Committee’s staff, who do a sterling job. They are committed and warning that it dedicated, and I want to put on record the House’s gratitude. I also pay tribute to the retiring members of “would be concerned if the Agencies were to suffer real-term cuts in the short or medium term.” the Committee: the right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), the right hon. and learned Member for The Minister might wish to say at the conclusion of this Devizes (Mr. Ancram), and my hon. Friend the Member debate whether the Government accept that counter- for Wirral, South (Ben Chapman). I count them all as espionage is not getting sufficient attention. personal friends, and I wish them well in their retirement. The Committee’s report describes “painfully slow” I believe that the House of Commons owes them a great progress—what a surprise!—in implementing the national debt, and that it will be a poorer place without them. security reforms announced by the Prime Minister two Obviously I want to mention my successor-but-one years ago. It says that the Government’s national security as Chairman of the ISC, my right hon. Friend the strategy has had Member for Pontypridd. The right hon. Member for “little direct impact on the focus or nature” Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) and my right hon. Friend 1021 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1022

[Mr. Paul Murphy] however, could be discussed in public without any Government secrets being revealed. I understand that the Foreign Secretary have already spoken of the such sessions are held in Australia and the United commitment and dedication that he has given to the job States. of chairing this important Committee, but we should also bear in mind the work that he has done in Wales for The relationship between the Committee and the more than two decades as the Member of Parliament House of Commons, and indeed the House of Lords, for Pontypridd and the work that he did for well over a has changed over the past few years. For instance, the decade as a Minister in a host of Departments, the Chairman of the Committee, my right hon. Friend the last being the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I Member for Pontypridd, opened today’s debate. When I shall miss him dreadfully, and I know that the House chaired the Committee, I had to wait for the Minister will as well. and the shadow Minister to speak before I was given an opportunity to speak myself. On one occasion when An article in The Guardian yesterday—there have speeches were time-limited, I was given only 10 minutes been other articles too—suggested that my right hon. in which to present the whole case for the ISC. That Friend might not be independent of Government, but nonsense has rightly been ended, and the Chairman of the last hour or two of debate does not reflect that view the Committee now opens the debate, as my right hon. at all. His speech could hardly have been regarded as Friend did so effectively today. that of—to use his word—a patsy. It was a very good speech, critical when necessary and supportive when I think that there should be more debates on the ISC. necessary. Anyone who remembers, for example, his Apparently the House of Lords is to have a debate on comments on the Lebanon when he was a Foreign its report, which is right and proper, but other matters Office Minister, or the comments that he has made affecting the Committee could surely be debated on the about Afghanistan over the past few months, will know Floor of the House or in Westminster Hall. There is that it is nonsense to suggest that he is a Government now an investigator, although it took a long time for the stooge. investigator to be appointed. The Commons also has a different relationship from five or six years ago in A number of Members, including my right hon. respect of the appointment of Committee members. Friend, have mentioned the important issue of the Committee members now have to be approved by the independence of the Committee, and I am sure that House of Commons through a vote, even though they others will as well. The Committee has nine members, are, of course, subject to the approval of the Prime four of whom are members of Opposition parties: the Minister, who appoints the Committee members who right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife are not Government members on the advice of the (Sir Menzies Campbell), the right hon. and learned Opposition leaders. Member for Devizes, the right hon. Member for East Hampshire, and the hon. Member for Croydon, South I found the host Department issue intriguing. I have (Richard Ottaway). It strikes me as nonsensical to suggest read the Committee’s second report—rather belatedly, that a Committee with such members will not be properly as it came out only this morning—and it contains the critical of the Government or the agencies when necessary. recommendation that the Cabinet Office should no The Committee is not, by any stretch of the imagination, longer be the host Government Department. That would partisan. It does not indulge in party politics for the be wise, as certain parts of the Cabinet Office are sake of it. It is composed entirely of distinguished—not subject to a degree of scrutiny by the ISC. It would be yet extinguished—Members of the House of Commons sensible for another Department to deal with the pay and, indeed, the House of Lords, whose job is to ensure and rations, so to speak, of the Committee and its staff. that there is proper scrutiny of the security services and The appropriate other Department may be the Ministry various aspects of Departments of Government, including of Justice, in which case I would not necessarily suggest the Cabinet Office. there would be an improvement in efficiency in respect The Foreign Secretary will have attended some of the of pay and rations. When I left the post of ISC Chairman sessions of the Committee in which interviews were and became Secretary of State for Wales, whose pay held, and he, like other Ministers, will have been interviewed and rations are also dealt with by the Ministry of himself. I know from my three years as Chairman that Justice, it did not pay me for a month or two. When I the interrogation—a better word than “interviewing”—of inquired about that, I was asked whether I was a magistrate’s witnesses is extremely robust. It is not discourteous, but clerk. I said I was not—although I have nothing against it is robust, and it is effective. Having been a member of magistrates’ clerks. The system the Ministry of Justice a Select Committee many years ago, I would say that it had in place was not particularly efficient, but that is is as good as, and sometimes better than, most questioning not the point: the point is that no part of the host of witnesses, be they heads of services, Ministers or Department should come under the scrutiny of the anyone else. Unfortunately, because the questioning Committee. I also take on board the point about the takes place in private, people will have to take our word budget; that should be dealt with in a similar manner. for it that those sessions are effective and important. If Members read the report, they will learn that That brings me to the question, which has already parliamentarians from across the world come and look been raised, of whether some of the sessions should be at how the ISC works. When I was Chairman, there held in public. We considered that difficult issue when I were visitors on almost a weekly basis, particularly from was Chairman of the Committee. My personal view is newly developing countries in Africa and eastern Europe. that one or two sessions could be held in public, but by They would come and look at how we in the UK deal no means all. It would be crazy for all of them to be with the scrutiny of our intelligence agencies, and some held in public, because that would destroy the Committee’s of their agencies used to operate under communist, effectiveness at a stroke. Some high matters of policy, and sometimes fascist, regimes. It is therefore very 1023 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1024 gratifying to see that the ISC model has been copied Committee and to this House. The Government are not across the world. That point must be put on record as delivering on the Prime Minister’s promises of a year well. ago, and that really is not acceptable, particularly given It is true that the Committee is critical of not only the all the different allegations and adverse press comment, Government in office but the services where necessary. to some of which I and others in this House have There are, I think, 26 conclusions and recommendations contributed. It is not good enough for the Government in the first report—the report of 2008-09—and at least not to deliver on their promises. Delivering on them 12 of them are, to varying degrees, critical of the would allow us to move forward with much greater agencies and Government. It would therefore be wrong public confidence and confidence in this House. to suggest that there is not proper accountability and, Before I come to some of the more controversial when necessary, criticism as well. issues, I wish to deal with some of the nuts and bolts of The report also says that our agencies do a remarkably this report. What is so excellent about the work being good job; in my experience, Committee members have done by the Committee is that it deals with some of the always believed that to be the case. The agencies protect nitty-gritty that has to be done. Although the ISC us from death and destruction, and it was my experience should not be an ordinary Select Committee, I am as a Northern Ireland Minister that they played a huge talking about it doing the sort of the work that an part in preventing outrages and death. They have an ordinary Select Committee actually gets done, including admirable record of uncovering plots against our people. the work on finance and resources. We have heard from There will always be a case for proper scrutiny and the Chair how the support that the Committee gets criticism when necessary, but the case should always be from the National Audit Office to examine those issues made that the safety of all those whom we, as Members is incredibly important, not least because the amount of of this House, represent is hugely enhanced by the money being spent in this area has increased dramatically effectiveness of our services, and the scrutiny of them is in recent years. It is important that that is examined. hugely enhanced by the ISC and its members. Other concerns about the nuts and bolts that the Committee reports mention have not been touched on yet, but they include the way in which the staff are 2.22 pm recruited and trained. That is fundamental to the workings Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): of the intelligence services, and there is a need to build May I begin by joining other Members in praising our up the competences and capacity over a longer term. If security and intelligence services? As somebody who there is a hint of criticism in the report, it is that an has raised concerns over the Binyam Mohamed case overly short-term approach has been taken in the past and other allegations of complicity in torture, I want to to certain areas, such as the defence intelligence services put firmly on the record my party’s support, and also in respect of language competence and so on. That is my personal support, for the fantastic work our security having to be put right quickly now, and a lot of relatively services do—whether at GCHQ in examining the vast inexperienced officers are coming into the services. They amount of electronic and other data that have to be are doing an incredibly important job without necessarily analysed, at the Security Service or the Secret Intelligence having the wisdom of more senior people who have Service, or through other elements of the intelligence spent a longer time in the services. Getting that right machinery. As other Members have said, the work of and not making the mistakes of the past is important. our intelligence agencies is increasingly complicated. I was surprised not to see in the Committee’s report They do a fantastic job in supporting our troops in any indication of the co-operation with other services; Northern Ireland and, through the defence intelligence perhaps aspects of the control principle and other things service, in Afghanistan where they try to work out what are going on there. However, I would have thought that the Taliban and the insurgents are doing—real front-line given the global threat of terrorism and the fact that work—or to foil al-Qaeda plots. It is important that this tackling it is such a major part of the services’ work, the House speaks as one on that. We must make it absolutely relationships between our services and those of other clear that our agencies have full cross-party support in countries is important. I am talking not about the performing their critical role. allegations of complicity in torture, but about the day-to-day That is why I welcome this report and this debate. nuts and bolts working. There is a bit about this in the Both the ISC’s reports are very good, and the right hon. report but if, as I did, one goes to see an organisation Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) made a powerful such as Europol and the fantastic work that it is doing speech. I agree with Members who have said it would be to bring together the analysis of the threat of terrorism very difficult to read the record of this debate in Hansard from different organisations, one expects to find more and then to suggest there are not independent people comment on this. serving on this Committee holding our intelligence services to account. We need to bury that lie here today. Mr. George Howarth rose— May I join the right hon. Member for Richmond, Mr. Davey: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman, who is Yorks (Mr. Hague) in giving my apologies in advance: I a member of the Committee, will put me right on this may not be present for the winding-up speeches. and refer me to the appropriate paragraphs. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State is raising his hand, too, in which case all three of us will be guilty in Mr. Howarth: I think that the hon. Gentleman may that regard. However, I shall read the record of the be referring to the previous report. If he were to look at winding-up speeches with interest tomorrow. the 2009-10 report, he would find that a specific section I shall not repeat all the points made by the right hon. is headed “The exchange of intelligence”. It begins at Member for Richmond, Yorks, but I, too, have concerns paragraph 52 and covers precisely the points that he about the Government’s tardiness in responding to this said the Committee did not cover. 1025 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1026

Mr. Davey: I stand corrected although, in my defence, Mr. Davey: I will let the right hon. Gentleman intervene I should point out that the report only came out at in a moment. The all-party group on rendition also 10 o’clock this morning and we have all been running to considered the evidence and took a different view. catch up. I think that the right hon. Gentleman makes a point that his Front-Bench team should take into account. Mr. Mates rose— A theme of the debate so far has been how we reform the Committee. I agree with other right hon. and hon. Members who have said that the issue of independence Mr. Davey: I will let the right hon. Gentleman intervene is not critical, although we could examine it and that in a moment. All I would say is that I am sure that aspect could be improved—indeed, the report looks at reasonable people could consider the same evidence that. I am talking not only about the appointment of and form different views, but I would love the Committee members, although that is clearly important, but how to have the resources to go after such things. I believe the budget is put together. We could also examine the that the Committee was wrong in its conclusion. issue of public hearings, but I do not think that that is the crucial point. Mr. Mates: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for I come to the interventions that I made on the Chairman giving way. The Committee did look at the matter; it and the Foreign Secretary now, because I think that looked at all the documents; it looked at the secret resourcing is crucial. Although I welcome the fact that signals that were sent on this subject; and it was roundly we now have an investigator, that is just one investigator. critical of the United States authorities, because they We have already heard from a very distinguished member broke an undertaking, which appears on the bottom of of the Committee, the right hon. Member for East such secret reports, not to divulge them to anyone else. Hampshire (Mr. Mates), that what one would assume That criticism was as strong as we felt it needed to be, to be relatively run-of-the-mill investigations have already but stronger than some Ministers wanted, because we had barriers put in their way. Thus, there is a concern did not want to upset—[Interruption.] Yes, it is in the about not only the resources for the investigatory powers report. We concluded that the Americans had broken a and abilities of the Committee, but how they are viewed long-standing tradition, for which we criticised them. by the security services, the Cabinet Office and others That does not mean that our people were to blame. If who have a say on how resources can be deployed. It is the hon. Gentleman has another reason for criticising important to come back to that issue, because if the our security services, that is another matter. public are to have confidence in the work—if we across the House are to have confidence in it—we need to Mr. Davey: I welcomed the part of the report that know that the people we are entrusting with this incredibly criticised the Americans, because no doubt they were at important job have all the tools that they need to do it. fault in many respects, but I was not completely convinced Lest people run away with the idea that I am completely about our authorities. I shall move on, however, because uncritical of the Committee, I can say from the experience this is obviously an individual case and I secured an of supporting one of my constituents that I do not Adjournment debate on it. I used the case to show that, always agree with every word written in its reports. You while the ISC does a great job, it needs extra resources would perhaps be surprised if I did, Mr. Deputy Speaker. to do an even better job. A constituent of mine, Bisher al-Rawi, was in my view The House has already heard a number of statements illegally rendered from The Gambia, where he was on a from the Foreign Secretary about issues regarding business trip, to Bagram airport, where he spent time in allegations of complicity in torture. That relates to the a dark hole and suffered torture. He then went to debate about guidance. Those of us who are pushing Guantanamo Bay and was there for four years. He was the issue are doing so in the interests of our intelligence never told what he was supposed to have done and was services. Much of the concern involves the fact that eventually released. their reputation is being undermined. The right hon. I worked with my constituent’s family, and eventually Member for Richmond, Yorks and I want to pursue the with my constituent, from 2002. It was an informative matter to ensure that it is dealt with and a line drawn experience. At first, my relationship with the intelligence under it so that we can move on. services was very good, and the officers with whom I Many of us who have had experience of our intelligence dealt were as helpful as they possibly could be, given the services believe that their reputation deserves to be restraints and restrictions they were under. I pay tribute restored and that the criticism levelled at them needs to to them. However, I felt that when the ISC considered be answered. I have seen no evidence at all that UK the case of Bisher al-Rawi, which is especially important officers have ever been engaged in torture themselves. I given the issues and debates around renditions, it was a am not sure whether that has been mentioned in the bit reliant—this came out in the report—on what it was debate so far, but let us be absolutely clear: such allegations, being told by the secret services and it was not really which we sometimes see in the press, are completely able to question through investigation. false. I have never seen any evidence to back them up. The issue in Bisher’s case was British complicity in his Indeed, I have seen evidence that our officers have arrest and subsequent rendition—whether the British worked very hard to avoid being complicit in torture, secret services tipped off the CIA in The Gambia and but there are a number of serious allegations. We know told the Gambian authorities to arrest him; he had been about Binyam Mohamed and Shaker Aamer, but there arrested at Gatwick airport and investigated by the are 12 legal cases before the courts. We have heard British authorities. In a way, the ISC report gave our about the police investigations with witness B, for instance, services a clean bill of health. I looked at the evidence— and about the second investigation into the MI6 officer. There appears to be evidence—it needs to be questioned Mr. Mates rose— and examined—that suggests that there are concerns. 1027 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1028

When the seven paragraphs were printed, it was clear Sir Alan Beith: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is that other people in the security service knew about equally important to ensure that officers are aware of them. It is not absolutely clear when or who, or whether the guidance? In the past, the ISC has had to draw Ministers knew about them, but it seems to me that attention to their lack of awareness of it. The task goes these are reasonable questions to pursue beyond determining whether they had been shown the I have a slight problem with the Chairman’s criticism guidance at some point—or, possibly, that they had not of the judiciary in his initial remarks. When senior been shown it. We need to be sure that they are aware, judges such as the Master of the Rolls and the Lord when they are in a situation in which these issues can Chief Justice make the points that they have made, it is arise, that their work must be covered fully by the incumbent on this House to look at them and take them guidance and that it falls within it. That means that the extremely seriously. guidance needs to be agreed quickly, and that this delay must be brought to an end. Andrew Mackinlay: An extraordinary statement is contained in paragraphs 151 and 152 on page 43 of the Mr. Davey: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. 2008-09 report. There are two basic questions about the guidance. First, is it legal and does it ensure that officers who follow it “The Security Service officer who interviewed Mr. Mohamed are meeting Britain’s domestic and international legal on 17 May 2002 said that he could not recall whether or not he obligations? Secondly, is it being enforced, in the sense was aware of the information prior to the interview.” that officers are made aware of it and are trained in it? The reference is to information supplied to our people We must make sure that the operational guidance flows to the effect that Mr. Mohamed well from the overall policy guidance framework. We “had been intentionally deprived of sleep by his captors while in may not need to know the operational guidance that detention”. officers use on a weekly basis in different theatres, but I invite the hon. Gentleman to comment on that statement we must be sure that it is in tune with the overall because, frankly, I find it incredible. I simply do not strategic policy guidance. believe it. I have no doubt that, in due course, the new guidance will meet all our legal obligations and that officers will be trained on it, but the allegations that we know about Mr. Davey: I have similar concerns. The Foreign all relate to the past guidance, so I am concerned that Secretary gave us fair warning that the case is sub judice Ministers seem to be dodging that one, and at some so I will not dwell on it too much, but it shows the stage we will have to get back to it. The right hon. significance of the guidance. The right hon. Member Member for Richmond, Yorks said that he was inclined for Richmond, Yorks was pushing on that— towards some sort of judge-led inquiry, and I am delighted that he has repeated that, because he knows that we David Miliband indicated dissent. share that approach. Yes, there may be issues about its timing, but that is the only approach that will draw a Mr. Davey: The Foreign Secretary shakes his head, line under this. I do not believe that the alternatives—ISC because he is obviously about to say that we are debating inquiries or the Investigatory Powers Tribunal—meet future guidance. However, the point that I wanted to the test that will be needed to ensure that all the come to is that the past guidance is not going to be questions that I have raised are fully answered. published and so it will not be available to us. In answer I want to make one or two brief remarks on substantive to a question that I put to him on Thursday 11 March, issues raised by the report. The first concerns intercept the Prime Minister made it absolutely clear that the evidence and whether that could in due course become Government have no intention of publishing the previous admissible. I think that in the 2009-10 report, which I documents, even in redacted form. It may be that the had a chance to scan, there is a suggestion that the work members of the ISC have looked at this matter and that on this is going into the quicksand, and that the Committee they have asked questions and taken legal advice about feels that it will be all too difficult. If so, I am quite it, but it is clear that many people both in this House worried, and I would like to hear more of the reasoning and outside—including very senior lawyers and judges—are behind it. Perhaps those Committee members who speak concerned that the previous guidance in operation was can justify such comments, but as I understand it, when inadequate and could have exposed some of our officers. Sir John Chilcot considered that issue when he was Of course I shall not go into the details of the police leading a slightly different inquiry from his current one, investigation, but one point is really important in that he said that he thought that it would be possible to context. If officers have acted against the guidance, they make intercept evidence admissible as long as certain may be in a difficult situation: however, if they operated problems were dealt with. He seemed to imply that they within the guidance and the guidance is found to have could be overcome. If something has changed, it is such been faulty, the heads of the various intelligence services an important issue for the way in which we debate and the Ministers who signed off the guidance have counter-terrorism policy that we need to learn more legitimate questions to answer. I asked the Foreign about it. Secretary about that when he made his most recent My final point again concerns Binyam Mohamed, statement on Binyam Mohamed, but he made it clear but it is about some of the issues that the ISC looked at that he was going to avoid such questions. This is a very in relation to generic lessons. It slapped the wrists of the important matter, and those of us who want to ensure intelligence services for poor record-keeping, and it is that the reputation of our intelligence services is restored quite likely that there has been poor record-keeping. I and that individual officers are not hung out to dry know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick- need to get to the bottom of it. upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and others have commented 1029 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1030

[Mr. Davey] Andrew Mackinlay: That is why they could not find the computers—they have hidden all about him. on this over a period of time. But the way in which the papers were not given to the ISC seemed to be not Mr. Howarth: I have to say that my hon. Friend can simply a question of poor record-keeping. The Prime occasionally be funny; on this occasion he was not. Minister himself stepped in to ensure that it did not get It was also good that my right hon. Friend the all the papers that the courts were getting, but I hope Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) took part in the that when the Minister replies to the debate he can debate. He led the Committee very well, with his often assure us that that did not happen. However, the distinct understated way of presenting himself. He was a great impression that we have had from previous debates is leader of the Committee and, I am pleased to say, he that obstacles were put in the way of the ISC getting all will still be with us after the next general election, the information that it should have received. That would subject, of course, to the electorate re-electing him. have been a real problem, so I hope that the Minister I also want to echo the comments that have been will reassure me on that point. made about the secretariat of the Intelligence and Security Committee. It has gone through a difficult period over Dr. Howells: That was never the case as far as records the past few months and I do not intend to trail through were concerned. We looked very hard at this and I hope the entrails of that, but each and every one of its that the hon. Gentleman will accept that although the members provides us with a fantastic service. They put record-keeping was very poor, people kept digging back in huge numbers of hours above those that they are into previous computer systems and discovering material, contracted to, and to preserve the independence of some of which was hopeless. Eventually we got everything, the Committee they have, as my right hon. Friend the or at least we assumed that we got everything that there Member for Pontypridd said, put their careers in jeopardy was on the subject. I would not be surprised if stuff on occasion—not because they have done anything turns up in the future, but that would be because of the wrong, but simply because they have stood up for the nature of the record-keeping, not because things were independence of the Committee. I hope that, as my kept from us. right hon. Friend said, when the Dissolution of Parliament takes place—I hope that the Minister takes note of this—it will not be seen by some senior civil servants as Mr. Davey: I am happy to take the right hon. Gentleman’s an opportunity to get rid of the current secretariat and word on that. put somebody else in before a new Committee is formed. This is an important debate. I hope that in the new It is important both for the integrity of the future Parliament we can have a rather quick follow-up, both Committee and as a matter of fairness that that does to allow us to debate the 2009-10 report properly once not happen. we have had a chance to look at it, and to debate the The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton guidance, which I hope will be published at the earliest (Mr. Davey) almost invited me to speak on the question opportunity. of intercept as evidence. I am not saying this as a criticism—I realise that it was difficult for anybody to get to grips with all the information in the time that they 2.44 pm had to read the 2009-10 report—but at paragraph 58 on Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, page 19 there is a whole section headed “Intercept as East) (Lab): May I begin by echoing the sentiments that evidence”. The most important thing to draw to his have already been expressed about the members of the attention is the fact that the Home Office carried out a Committee who are retiring, not only from the Committee trial of a system—indeed, some members of the Committee but from the House of Commons? The right hon. were able to attend sessions of that trial—in which it Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), who, as my tried out some cases in a synthesised situation to see right hon. Friend the Committee Chairman said, is the how it would work if intercept were used as evidence. Committee’s longest-standing member, has been an As a result, the Home Secretary produced a report, the enormous source of guidance to me during my time on conclusion of which was: the Committee. I have appreciated his wise counsel and “The collective view of the departments, intercepting agencies sometimes his convivial company, too. and prosecution authorities engaged in the work programme is that despite best efforts to design, build and test the model, it does The right hon. and learned Member for Devizes not provide a viable basis for implementation, without breaching (Mr. Ancram), with his great legal knowledge and the operational requirements set out by the Privy Council.” ministerial experience, has also been a great addition to It is, therefore, not true to say that they threw their the Committee and will be sorely missed. I shall personally hands up and said, “It’s all too difficult.” It was as a miss my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, South result of trying to make a system work that it was (Ben Chapman)—he is a great personal friend but he concluded that it probably could not. has also been a fantastic member of the committee. Of course, my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd Sir Alan Beith: As one who is still engaged in overseeing (Dr. Howells) is retiring from Parliament, too. I have the work being done in the Home Office and with the known him since before he was a Member of this agencies on how effect can be given to the Government’s House, when he was an employee of the National declared wish to see intercept used as evidence, perhaps Union of Mineworkers at the time of the strike. One I ought to make it clear that there are several models for thing that can never be said about him is that he is not doing that. The right hon. Gentleman rightly points out his own man. In every circumstance in which I have ever the part of the report that states that one particular known him, he does what he thinks is the right thing to model, when tried, did not prove to be effective or do. He has demonstrated that again today. workable, but work has continued on a range of models. 1031 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1032

Mr. Howarth: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman I shall describe a few characteristics of our work in who, as Chair of the Justice Committee, has good order to explain that point better. First, and uniquely, reason to have in-depth knowledge of the subject. members of our Committee have to sign the Official Previously, he was a very distinguished member of our Secrets Act. I do not think that any other Member, Committee. I am sure that there are alternative models sitting on a committee of any description, is in that that could be trialled, but it was concluded that the one position. We do so freely, and we are not complaining, that was trialled was not workable. I am sure that it is but it provides some indication of not only the personal open to the Home Secretary to try other models in the commitment we have to make but what follows from future, but as matters stand, it is not a case of people that—the fact that we have access to classified material, saying, “It’s all too difficult, we can’t go there.” It is on which often cannot be discussed in public, bearing in the basis of evidence that they have arrived at that mind the point that I have already made about the conclusion. state’s right to hold secrets. The first of the two further points I want to make The second point, to which I think the hon. Member today relates to the whole business in a free society of for Kingston and Surbiton referred in an intervention, having secrets. I am reluctant to prod my hon. Friend is that we meet in premises that are suitably secure. We the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), but I do not meet in the House; we meet in offices that are shall do so none the less by saying that it is perfectly suitably secure, as my right hon. Friend described them, possible to construct a theoretical argument that a state so that the dialogue that we need to have with the should never hold any secrets, and I suspect that he agencies can take place. might hold that view. The third point for which we draw some criticism is that our reports often contain redactions: things are Andrew Mackinlay indicated dissent. blanked out. Often, they are figures. We as a Committee try to minimise the number of redactions, because we Mr. Howarth: I am glad to see that my hon. Friend think it is in everybody’s interest if we publish as much does not think that. However, the underlying assumption as we can. Indeed, the more that is published, the more of many of the writers of the articles criticising our people might be reassured about what is going on. Committee over the recent past seems to be that states However, we recognise that some figures and material should never hold any secrets—or that if they do have of which we are made aware cannot be put in the public any secrets, there should be some means of making domain. The legislation requires that our reports go, them public. I do not know how we could function in first, to the Prime Minister, so we have to inform him of that way. everything that we know, even though that means that, No doubt more will be said about this during the for public consumption, some sections of the report debate, but it has already been pointed out that in have to be redacted. reality, in the dangerous world we live in—a world I understand why, for a journalist looking at such where people are willing to strap on explosives, go into matters, it must be hugely frustrating to pick up one of London’s transport system and blow themselves up, our reports and find out that the information that they along with anyone within a reasonable radius—public would love to know and write about simply has not safety, state secrets and what we know about what been published. I can understand why Members feel people intend to do are of paramount importance. If frustrated on occasions, too, but the alternative is to we cannot protect that information we are, to be frank, give a less than complete picture to the Prime Minister, a less safe nation. That may seem a trite and obvious and it would be a dereliction of our duty if we did not thing to say, but the tone of much of the media criticism bring to the attention of the Prime Minister everything levelled against our Committee seems to start from the that we thought he needed to know—even though some presumption that it does not really matter whether the of that cannot be made public. state cannot keep its secrets. Well, I beg to differ. On the question of whether we should be more like a On occasion, we have been given evidence about Select Committee, I would have no difficulty with some incidents that might have happened but, mercifully, of our sessions, when appropriate, being held in public, information was intercepted. That evidence has made although I share my right hon. Friend’s concern that, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up in fear of the on occasions, they would look rather staged. Let us be true potential for such an incident happening in this honest: there would not be a full, free and frank exchange country. The state has to hold secrets. of information between ourselves and our witnesses, The question then is how we oversee the organisations because they would not be able to say in public the that hold those secrets. There has been an argument things that we would have to discuss in private. Nevertheless, about whether we should use a Select Committee model, we could do a couple of things in public, and, after the or whether the model we have is the right one. I think election, were I still to be a Member of the House and a that there are real reasons why John Major’s Government member of the Committee, I would be open to conducting set up the Committee the way they did. It was not that such experiments. they did not want effective oversight. The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington and Chelsea Mr. Mates: The right hon. Gentleman made a very (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) told the House earlier that they important point about redactions and the frustrations thought long and hard about the matter, giving it a that exist, and it is worth repeating—I have said it great deal of consideration. What they wanted was an before in this place—that the Committee has the final effective way of overseeing what the agencies do, while say on redactions. The statute allows the Prime Minister ensuring that the confidential, secret nature of much of to seek to redact anything that might affect national the material was protected. It is because we work in that security, and only that, but the Committee has to agree. way that I sometimes think we are unfairly criticised. If the Committee were not to agree, it would make that 1033 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1034

[Mr. Mates] “The protection of confidential information is essential to strong, effective security and intelligence cooperation among fact public, and no Government would want made allies. The decision by a United Kingdom court to release classified public the fact that we insisted on having published information provided by the United States is not helpful, and we deeply regret it.” something that they did not want, because then the matter would not be about national security; it would That is a diplomatic way of saying, “We’re very concerned be about embarrassment. I make this point because that about this, and it may affect the co-operation between is precisely what will have to happen with the report we us in future.” have just submitted to the Prime Minister about the Some 12 months ago, an official in Washington put it guidance. He cannot take out the bits he does not rather more bluntly to the Committee, saying, “Well, agree with, because they have nothing to do with national the way things are, we’ll tell you if they’re about to blow security. up London, but beyond that we’ll have to take it on a case-by-case basis whether we share things with you or Mr. Howarth: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, not.” [Interruption.] I do not say that to be humorous. who is perfectly correct in his description. It is worth It means that the US could hold information about adding that when the Committee is at the stage of matters that could in the long term lead to a serious discussing with the agencies, or even Government incident in this country, but because of what happened Departments, what should and should not be redacted, in the recent case there would be a reluctance to pass we do not take those decisions lightly. There can often that information on to the UK. That is a serious problem be weeks of interchange between the Committee and that has to be addressed, and the right hon. Member for the relevant agencies as to what is and is not published Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) was right to refer to it. or remains unredacted. As I said, we have tried very hard to avoid, as much as possible, the need for redaction Andrew Mackinlay: If my right hon. Friend reflects in the reports we have published, safe in the knowledge on what he has just told the House, which I am sure is that where national security is involved, and we can be 100 per cent. correct, will he not pause to think that convinced that that is the case, that device has to be what he has conveyed is a deliberately menacing message available to us. from some official in the United States? We should be I want to move on to whether we should be a Select told who it was, because it is a threat to the United Committee. I certainly do not think that we should. In Kingdom. The US should be reminded that it works the past few weeks, among the great cacophony of both ways. voices that have called us everything from useless to unworthy of the position—many of them I do not hold in a great deal of regard anyway—I was concerned to Mr. Howarth: The quote that I gave is on page 19 of hear the voice of Baroness Manningham-Buller, who is the report, and it is from the director of national a distinguished ex-director general of the Security Service. intelligence. I had no criticism to make of the noble Lady when she fulfilled those duties. She was an outstanding leader of Andrew Mackinlay: No, the one that you’ve just her service, and I admired her enormously. Whenever mentioned. she met the Committee, she bowed to nobody and gave nothing away in the defence that she mounted on behalf Mr. Howarth: Will my hon. Friend let me answer in of her service, and we all admired that quality in her. my own way? The second point was made by a senior When we needed to be put straight as a Committee— official who spoke to the Committee on terms of privacy, perhaps we had misunderstood something or were simply and I am not going to going to break those terms in the getting it wrong—she never failed to tell us. We took a House of Commons or anywhere else. great deal of notice of any evidence that she gave. I was therefore surprised to find that she recently suggested It is significant, however, that the relationship between that perhaps the time was coming when the Committee us and the United States has deteriorated over the should become a Select Committee. On no occasion current case to such an extent that the Committee has that I can remember did she make such a suggestion heard evidence from heads of agencies that they have when she gave evidence to our Committee. Indeed—other recently noted a significant decrease in the amount of members will correct me if I am wrong—I seem to information that the United States is providing. It is recall that on several occasions she praised our work. I impossible to say whether that is because there is a find it a little surprising and disappointing that somebody significant decrease in the information available or whether I regard highly and respect makes that suggestion now; it is a result of the concerns that have been expressed. had she made it to the Committee at the time, we would Nevertheless, we need to be concerned about it and it have taken it very seriously. worries me greatly. The net consequence is that something The final point that I want to discuss is our relationships could be going on that we do not know about, which and intelligence sharing, particularly with the United could otherwise be prevented. That is a serious matter. States. In the Binyam Mohamed case—I think the right I hope that what I have said has not sounded self-serving hon. Member for East Hampshire is likely to cover this and protective of the Committee’s work. I wish to say in in more detail—information that was owned by the conclusion that of all the committees I have been involved United States was sequestered by British courts and with in my political career, which stretches back quite a then used in evidence. Concerns have been expressed long way, including some that I might prefer to forget I that that might affect the important relationship that we was ever a member of, the Intelligence and Security have with the United States in terms of intelligence Committee is the most meticulous, fair-minded and sharing. Indeed, as recently as this month, the United hard-working. I hope that whatever happens in the States director of national intelligence said: general election, it remains that way afterwards. 1035 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1036

3.9 pm CIDT is not legally defined, but because a case is before the courts, it has been very difficult for the Mr. Michael Mates (East Hampshire) (Con): It is a Committee to say much about it—we have been unable pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Knowsley, to report or comment on it in anything like as much North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth), with whom I detail as we would have wished. Again, that has led the have been happy to serve on the Committee for the past media to say that we are not speaking out simply five years. As has been said, I have been on the Committee because we are puppets. I know that I am not going to since it was formed in 1994—16 long years—and I am persuade some hon. Members, but nothing could be very proud indeed to have been able to contribute to it further from the truth, and I hope that when people over that time. I have enjoyed it and found it stimulating, look at the criticisms in both reports, they will see that and it really is good to work with. when we feel we need to criticise the security services for serious failures, we do so. I have seen five Chairmen come and go, and I am happy that two of them are here today—from both parties. The point about the Committee is that there is Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Of course my right hon. Friend practically no party politics whatever. We are there to is right to distinguish between torture and CIDT, but I do a serious job that is not normally in the party hope that he would also want to use this occasion to argument. We try to come to the right conclusion emphasise that the latter is not only about slopping out having been given a lot of information that no a prison cell. Cruel and inhuman treatment can amount other Committee gets. I happily pay tribute to my if not to torture, but to something that is morally two Welsh colleagues and friends, the right hon. repugnant and counter-productive as a means of obtaining Members for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) and for Pontypridd reliable truth. That must also be excluded from legitimate (Dr. Howells), for their handling of the Committee in activity by the agencies. their periods in office. Mr. Mates: My right hon. and learned Friend is It is a sadness that this last year of the 16 has been the absolutely right. I have simply said that there is a most difficult, in terms not only of what has been dilemma, and I shall come to that dilemma later in my happening, but of a distinct change in the attitude of remarks. the authorities in the Government—I will not say Before that, I shall address the other fundamental Ministers—to what the Committee does and how it problem, which is that we are sponsored by the Cabinet goes about its business. I could not set those difficulties Office, which provides our staff on secondment from out better than the right hon. Member for Pontypridd, other Departments. This arrangement was fine in 1994, but I trust that what he and others said will put an end when we started, but since then the development of the to the thought, which is much too active in the media, supervision of intelligence and the way in which it is that Committee members are simply puppets or, as one administered in government has changed so that more hon. Gentleman said, poodles, of the Prime Minister. I and more parts of the Cabinet Office have been involved have been described as many things in my life, but never in what we oversee and we do indeed oversee some parts yet as a poodle, and I do not think it is particularly of what it does. Matters have come to a head this year, apposite. and that has led us to believe that the situation should I shall speak about that difficult only briefly, because change. That is why we made a formal request for a the Chairman covered it in much more detail, but there change in our sponsor Department. We put it to the has also been a lot of terrorist activity to report on. Prime Minister who instructed that this should be looked However, the most difficult matter has been the question at in detail and this has been followed up with exploratory and dilemma of torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading talks as to how best we could achieve what should be treatment, to which I will refer as CIDT to spare my perceived as further steps towards showing our teeth. Reading the press, one would think there was no independence. difference between torture and CIDT, because they A small group of us—we are all in our places—including write only about torture. Torture is absolutely out: we the Chairman, the right hon. Member for Knowsley, are all clear about that. One must not do any physical North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) and I, met the harm to anybody in one’s custody if one belongs in a head of human resources in the Ministry of Justice, civilised society. The Government do not tolerate it, which seems a logical Department for us to move to. their predecessors did not tolerate it, and no member of Although it has no oversight of any of the intelligence our security and intelligence services tolerates it. That is and security services, it does have a certain familiarity a given. I hope that nobody doubts those words. with what is going on and it is also used to handling However, CIDT is another matter. Obviously, there several other independent bodies, such as the Supreme are degrees of CIDT, and it is not clearly defined in law, Court and others, on which no one could doubt its which gives everybody a problem. Some months ago, independence. Being linked to those would have helped. one judge said that slopping out in jail was CIDT. All have now concluded that there are no practical Slopping out might be degrading, and it might be part difficulties that could not be overcome. That is what the of an antiquated Prison Service that is trying to improve Government have said. But what is needed is the political itself, but we cannot in any way liken it to torture or talk will to make the change. We have urged that it should about it in the same breath. I do not think that anyone happen this side of the general election so that the would be found guilty of partaking in, or allowing, successor Committee—this has been at the forefront of CIDT if a prisoner who was under investigation had to our mind—can get off to the best possible start in the slop out their cell. There are many gradations of CIDT, next Parliament without becoming involved in procedural which is what has given so many people so much matters and old arguments. It is to my great regret—and, difficulty. I am sure, that of every other member of the Committee— 1037 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1038

[Mr. Mates] Mr. George Howarth: The right hon. Gentleman has described the situation accurately. However, is it not that the Government’s response today to our 2009-10 also the case that none of our essential judgments about report, in which we specifically made these proposals, is the guidance and how it should be dealt with from simply that issues must be looked at and that they will hereon in have been challenged? Ours was a conclusion do so in the future. In other words, they are saying, about how to interpret certain phrases made to us in the “Let’s kick the issue into the long grass, wait until after past. That is what it is really all about. the election and hope it goes away.” That is thoroughly unsatisfactory. Mr. Mates: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The conclusion will not be affected, unless of On the issue of the guidance, it seemed to me that we course the Government choose to change the draft were going round in ever-decreasing circles and starting guidance, and if they do, our successors—it will be to dance on the head of a pin because nobody knew them now, alas—might well want to come to different what its status was, and I raised that point in an intervention conclusions. It is a mess, and it is a pity—and, I have to on the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton say to the Government, it was also absolutely unnecessary (Mr. Davey). Let me say—because these are facts and to go to these lengths to put off what is nothing more do not need to be hidden—that the guidance was given than an honest difference of opinion between people on to us in November. Yes, it took a long time, and there both sides of the House doing their best to get this are some reasons for that. It was amazingly complicated. absolutely right. We spoke to the Attorney-General, the Foreign Secretary On the case of Binyam Mohamed, the guidance, and and the Home Secretary about it, who are all concerned all that goes with it, is at the heart of what some people with it. We also understood how difficult it had been to suspect happened, what others seem to know happened set out guidance for the security services that would and what I can tell them did not happen. In our report hold water and not be subject to legal challenge, and to the Government in response to the guidance, we would also be of practical use. The whole Committee included a letter that we wrote to the Prime Minister on worked very hard on this and we turned it around as 17 March last year. We were concerned about the delays quickly as we could. We sent the draft guidance and our in setting out what was going on as this case rolled response back to the Prime Minister, who had himself on through the courts. We included that letter with said that he was keen to get the guidance out and that our initial findings on the allegations, including we must not mess about any longer. There we were, not in Mr. Mohamed’s case the allegation of complicity in 10 days ago, in the Cabinet room with him, when he torture, and that letter has been annexed to the review, asked his staff, “Can this be done?” The Cabinet which stills awaits publication. Secretary said, “Yes, it can be done.” Well, it has not The Committee’s letter includes some of the details been done. That is a matter of great regret to us all of Mr. Mohamed’s case in so far as it sheds light on the because we cannot now debate or consider it, because it wider policy issues. Complaints such as Mr. Mohamed’s is not yet there. are, of course, properly a matter for the Investigatory I shall not say what the differences are, because that Powers Tribunal to investigate. We advised Mr. Mohamed’s would not be right, but the fundamental reason is that lawyers of that, and I am still surprised that he has the Government disagree with one of our conclusions. apparently chosen not to take up that route. I would To be fair, the Government have said that they think also say to all those now calling for a judicial inquiry that this conclusion misrepresents something that a that that is exactly what we have—a senior judge, Lord Minister said to us. That is as maybe, and were it a Justice Mummery, and his tribunal, which was specifically matter of national security, they would have every right set up to look at individual cases. to say, “We’re not publishing this.” I can tell the House, Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con) indicated dissent. however, that it is not a matter of national security in any way, shape or form; it is a disagreement, which is Mr. Mates: But if that judge is not independent, going to be there because the Committee has signed off which judge is? If we are to put the matter in the hands the report, and if, as a result of further evidence, which of a judge to make a decision, we have to accept, the Foreign Secretary mentioned, we come to another whoever they are, that they are going to be independent. conclusion, or additional conclusions, they will have to That judge is ready and willing, but he has not yet been be published separately. What the Government refused asked. to publish today will have to be published as it is, because there is no alternative—that is what the statute says. Mr. Tyrie: Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge that public concern about rendition and the UK’s What a shame it is that publication has been put off involvement in it now goes far beyond one individual just because certain people think that it would be case? embarrassing. In my view, it would not be embarrassing. There is no harm in having a healthy disagreement with Mr. Mates: Yes, but that does not take away from the a group of parliamentarians who have looked at a point that if an individual says that he was mistreated subject and come to a different conclusion from the by the intelligence and security services, that is a matter Government. The real point is that the guidance is still not for our Committee but for the tribunal. The tribunal not in the public domain—the public are the real losers. is ready and waiting, and anyone out there who thinks If it gets altered as a result of what the Committee has that they have a complaint can put it to the tribunal. said, we will all say, “Hallelujah!” Then the public and The Committee looked at the detail of the allegations the House of Commons will be able to see what the raised by Mr. Mohamed, but we did not reach any original guidance was, what our comments were and premature conclusions regarding the Security Service what changes were made. or, in particular, regarding witness B. We recognised 1039 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1040 that the Attorney-General was considering the allegations, as we should be of ours. However, the remarks of Lord and that she might refer the matter to the police. She Neuberger, the Master of the Rolls, in a judgment that subsequently did so. If terror suspects are to be considered received much publicity, are worthy of comment. The innocent until proven guilty, we owe that same standard House will recall the huge controversy that arose when to officers in our intelligence agencies. We must therefore the first draft judgment and the counsel for the Foreign await the outcome of the police investigation before Secretary’s letter were leaked to the press, and I shall leaping on to the bandwagon of trial by media. not go into that further. In the final draft judgment, Our letter did, however, severely criticise the agencies’ Lord Neuberger said that record keeping, and recommended that certain types of “some security services’ officials appear to have a dubious record case be referred to Ministers rather than delegated back relating to actual involvement and frankness about any such to officials. We also raised a number of key policy involvement with the mistreatment of Mr. Mohamed when he was held at the behest of US officials. I have in mind in particular questions that we believe the Government must address— Witness B but the evidence in this case suggests it is likely there not least the need to make clear to the public the were others”. difficulties that officers in our security services face as As Jonathan Sumption QC said in his letter to the they try to balance the risk to detainees with the need to court, that was an astonishing thing for a judge to say safeguard the security of the UK and its citizens. It is a without giving anyone a chance to explain themselves. I great shame that the letter has got lost in our review, hope that if I ever found myself before Lord Neuberger because I believe that what we said in it would have been and I made allegations, he would require me to substantiate of help to the House and others and would have put an them with evidence. I hope, too, that if allegations were end to a great deal of uninformed speculation. We made against me, I would be given a full opportunity to could then have had a serious debate on this matter. answer them and to produce evidence to the contrary Andrew Mackinlay: What do you mean, it was lost? before he came to make a judgment. How those remarks can fail to have some effect on the case of witness B, Mr. Mates: I mean that it is in the report that has not should it come to court, is another matter. That he has been published. It is not lost, but it has got lost in the already been linked by so senior a judge with having “a wash. It will come out when the report comes out, but it dubious record”— is a pity that we do not have it today, because we could have had a more informed debate about all this. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. I There have been recent allegations that the Security hesitate to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but we Service has been complicit in torture. The allegations obviously have to be careful about matters that are sub are not that MI5 officers have tortured, but that an judice. I trust that he is aware of that and is taking it individual detained by another country has been mistreated into consideration. by officers of those countries and that the Security Service was aware of that, and therefore complicit Mr. Mates: I am indeed aware of that, Mr. Deputy in it. The position is not helped, of course, by the lack Speaker. However, I am not talking about the case; I am of any legal definition in UK law of complicity. The simply talking about the judgment made about the allegations raise key legal, political and ethical questions. release of information. I have come to the end of my Individual allegations are, as I have said, a matter for speech, but Lord Neuberger has alleged that witness B the investigatory powers tribunal, and not for us. That has “a dubious record” and has lacked “frankness”, is a common misunderstanding. We have previously which is a strange way of keeping people’s minds open referred individuals to the tribunal. That being said, in the outside world, as a case potentially comes before individual cases sometimes point towards policy failings, a court. or towards structural or systemic failures within the Let me finish by saying that I hope that over the agencies. Those do fall within our remit, and that is why 16 years of its life the Committee has shone some light we took this matter up. on the way that the services necessarily have to operate. There is one further aspect that deals not with facts Over those years, in many visits and in many parts of or evidence but simply with allegations. Mr. Mohamed the world, I have never found a set of men and women alleges that he was subjected to extremely serious physical more dedicated to the defence of our country. Long torture in Morocco. We must be clear that the courts may they continue that dedication with our help, not have not said that the UK had any involvement, direct our interference. or indirect, in that mistreatment. However, the agencies did pass questions to the Americans without knowing 3.32 pm where Mr. Mohamed was being held, and there is a question as to whether that involves them, however Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): I shall indirectly, in how he was treated, wherever he was. First, follow up some of the remarks made by the right hon. however, we do not have the facts. Secondly, this is, Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), but first let sadly, an unavoidable problem. We do not get told me make an apology. As I have informed the Chair, I where detainees are being held or how they are being have to leave at 4.15 pm for a constituency engagement. treated by other Governments. The only way in which I regret that I will not be here for the winding-up we could ensure that we were not implicated in any speeches or to listen to other hon. Members, and I mistreatment, however indirectly, would be not to deal apologise for that. with anyone, and that would leave the UK unable to The Chairman of the Committee made some critical protect itself. remarks about some Members of Parliament, the media I do not think that I have ever before commented and the judiciary for criticising the security services. I on—let alone criticised—the remarks of a member of only say that I would not wish to live in a country where the judiciary. They are as proud of their independence that freedom was undermined in any way whatever. As 1041 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1042

[Mr. David Winnick] am not at all critical of him. He must have reached his conclusion on the basis of evidence in his possession. It Members of Parliament who are not on the Committee, is not likely that he would make such remarks lightly, so we have a responsibility, along with the media, to criticise he must have had a very good reason to make them. when we consider it appropriate to do so, and we are all That is why I believe that the right hon. Gentleman was responsible for our remarks. As I might be considered wrong to criticise him. something of a critic, let me make it clear straight away that I am not criticising individual members of the ISC. Mr. Mates: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will listen a However, I have a number of reservations about how little more carefully when I repeat what I said. I did not the Committee was formed in the beginning and about criticise Lord Neuberger’s remarks; I criticised the effect how it continues. I would like the Committee to conduct that his remarks would have. He said its activities somewhat differently, something to which I “I have in mind in particular witness B”. shall return in a moment. Witness B is a person who has not yet been charged However, at no stage would I want to give the impression with anything, and who is under investigation by the that I minimise the acute terrorist threat facing this police and the Attorney-General. No one has heard his country. Even if 9/11 in the United States or 7/7 in this side of the case, least of all Lord Neuberger. This is country had not occurred, I would certainly recognise what I am saying. What effect will that have should that there is an acute terrorist threat. As we know, it is witness B come to trial? also an ongoing threat, and there is no guarantee—far from it—that the horrors and atrocities of 7 July 2005 Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Obviously I am not as could not be repeated. It is difficult to make a distinction, well versed in these matters as the right hon. Member and I do not see any reason why one should, between for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) and the hon. Member one form of mass murder and another. The IRA terror for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick), but let me again campaign, which took the lives of so many innocent counsel that we tread very carefully on matters that may people, whether service personnel or civilians, as in the eventually be dealt with in a trial. Birmingham pub bombings of 1974, involved crimes Mr. Winnick: I understand your ruling, Mr. Deputy and atrocities. What is different about the latest terrorist Speaker, but the right hon. Gentleman said that he was threat is that we are dealing with religious fanatics who not criticising the judge for his remarks, and he must actually glory in death, and who believe that paradise have been criticising him. He said “Look at the effects will be reached through mass slaughter. No one, I hope, that that may have on the security services.” As for could accuse me of minimising the terrorist threat. Binyam Mohamed—not witness B—the allegation that Of course I accept that the security services carry a he made was not a matter of sleep deprivation. It was heavy responsibility in trying to prevent such atrocities. accepted by a judge in a federal court in Washington Even if we were not faced with terrorist threats, as we that Binyam Mohamed was telling the truth about the have been over the past 30-odd years, it would be right tortures that had been inflicted on him, including mutilation for our parliamentary democracy, like other democracies, of his genitals. Is that not a matter of the most serious to have agencies to help and defend the country against concern? That is why a number of Members and the those whose purpose is the destruction of our rights media have been asking questions over the past few and liberties—not necessarily through terrorism, but months. We believe that they are very important questions politically. indeed. What degree of complicity, if any, did British I was critical to some extent when I spoke in the security officials have in such incidents of torture? debate on the annual report two years ago, but what What knowledge did they have? These questions will concerns me particularly on this occasion is the mention continue to be asked. by the right hon. Member for East Hampshire of allegations The former head of MI5, Lady Manningham-Buller, of torture. No Member has suggested that British security said last week that the Americans did not let on what officials have been directly involved in torture; no one was being done to suspects. She also mentioned that has made any such accusation. Torture certainly took someone had been waterboarded 160 times. We all place in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s, and we agree that that amounts to torture, although we do not know only too well how counter-productive it was. As know whether British security officials from MI5 or many Members have said, including Conservative Members, MI6 knew about the case. it served as a recruiting sergeant for the IRA. This is a Whether or not all or any of the suspects are innocent different accusation: that British security officials have is not the relevant point. I do not know whether any of engaged in a form of complicity when torture has taken these people who have been detained are innocent or place and people have been detained, be it in Pakistan guilty, and it is not my job to know. It is to be hoped or the United States. that that is for a court of law to decide. That is not the The right hon. Member for East Hampshire quoted issue here, however. The issue is not their guilt or the judgment of the Master of the Rolls, Lord Neuberger. innocence. The issue is to do with torture and whether Let me do so as well. Lord Neuberger said: our country—in one form or another, and however “Yet that does not seem to be true: as the evidence in this case indirectly—has been complicit in that torture. That is showed, at least some SyS officials” why this issue is so important. —security officials— Paragraph 147 of the 2008-09 report contains a quote from Lady Manningham-Buller, in which she said to “appear to have a dubious record when it comes to human rights the Committee that “with hindsight” she regretted not and coercive techniques”. seeking full reassurances over Mr. Mohamed’s case. Of course we must take that seriously. The right hon. That is a rather interesting observation from a former Gentleman was critical of the Master of the Rolls, but I head of MI5. All is not fine, therefore, even though the 1043 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1044 right hon. Member for East Hampshire, the Chairman hon. Member for East Hampshire, but it perhaps includes and members of the Committee might give us the the Foreign Secretary—that the Committee needs to impression that that is the case—that there is no need to move on. If we accept, as I do, that the bulk of the work worry, that all the information was given to the Committee should be done in private—even my hon. Friend the accordingly, and that the rest of us should not be at all Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) would, in concerned. the main, agree with that assertion—and if we are going I was one of the Members who argued before the ISC to move on, we should give careful consideration in the was established that there should be some parliamentary new Parliament as to how the ISC should function. accountability of the security services. There was a I started by saying that I do not have any criticism of Conservative Government at the time, and I was told individual members of the Committee; my criticisms that that was out of the question and that the work of relate to the Committee itself and the perception that it the security services was confidential because they were has. There is a need for the public and certainly for dealing with terrorism and so forth. I was told it was parliamentarians to recognise that it is doing the work simply unrealistic for Members such as myself to argue that it was established to do—providing scrutiny of the for parliamentary accountability. Some of these debates security services. That should be done in a way that may have taken place before my right hon. Friend the ensures that we have more confidence that the Committee Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East as a whole—this is not a matter of individual members (Mr. Howarth) entered the House; that was, I believe, in of the Committee—is doing the work that is essential in 1986 or thereabouts. I was, of course, very pleased a parliamentary democracy. I look forward—I may still when, in due course, MI5 and MI6 were placed on a be here—to a new Parliament that gives much further statutory basis. That was a very good step. I was also and serious consideration as to how the Committee pleased when the ISC was formed. I served on the functions accordingly. relevant Standing Committee at the time, and Labour Members argued that the new Committee should be more like a Select Committee, although we knew very 3.48 pm well that that was most unlikely to happen—some of us realised that it would not happen under a Labour Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington and Chelsea) (Con): Government, too. May I begin by making it entirely clear, and perhaps Given this history, however, when some of us argue creating a precedent, that I have every intention of that the ISC should move somewhat further in that being present for the wind-ups this evening? Our intelligence direction by having public sittings, for instance—and agencies have much in common with intelligence agencies that there is, perhaps, a case for having a Select in other parts of the world, but there are certain differences. Committee—our views should not be dismissed out of Baroness Manningham-Buller made a very good speech hand. Indeed, the former head of MI5, Lady a couple of weeks ago, in which she said: Manningham-Buller, has suggested this. I accept, as I “The head of the French intelligence service made a speech…in said in an intervention, that the bulk of the work must which he…complained that the British…had a glamorous and undoubtedly be undertaken by a Committee in secret seductive word for the covert collection of information. The session; even if there were a Select Committee, I would British called it ‘Intelligence’ whereas in France…at least one of not, for one moment, suggest that much of the work the security intelligence agencies laboured under the dull title of scrutinising the security services should be done other ‘General Information.’” than in private. However, I believe, rather strongly now I can only express my relief, in the interests of transparency, given what has occurred over the past 12 months, that that we are not discussing the report of the general there is a pretty strong case for public sessions. I find it a information committee—that at least is to be welcomed. bit odd that the head of MI5 can write an article in The Daily Telegraph, the Chair of the Committee can respond I wish specifically to examine the question of alleged favourably and other comments can be made, yet at the complicity by the security services in certain unacceptable same time we are told that these sorts of views cannot behaviour. My starting point is the Committee’s report, be put before a Committee publicly. If the head of MI5 which indicates that when the Committee originally can write an article putting forward the views of his considered the question of rendition in 2007, it did not organisation and defending his organisation, as one receive information that subsequently, in 2008, the Security would expect him to do, why cannot he do that in Service, followed by the Secret Intelligence Service, suddenly Committee in a public session? It is difficult to see why discovered. That is made quite clear in the report, which that should not be done. says that that information was made available only because the papers had been discovered when MI5 and Mr. George Howarth: I do not think that any of us MI6 were preparing for judicial review by the Court of would argue that the director general of the Security Appeal, or by a court. Service should not have the ability to express a view in public, either in speeches he may make or articles he That raises the question as to why, when MI5 and may compose. The argument is that those are, self-evidently, MI6 were about to have to defend themselves in a court issues that can be discussed in public whereas a lot of of law, where anything potentially improper or any the evidence he may give to our Committee amounts to misinformation to the court would have had extremely things that ought not to be discussed in public. We draw serious consequences, they appeared to take the time a simple distinction between the two, and I do not think and trouble to establish from their internal records what that my hon. Friend disagrees with us on that. information they possessed. However, when they gave evidence to the ISC, that somehow did not occur. The Mr. Winnick: Perhaps not, but I do take the view that Committee has made it clear that, in its view, there was there is a sort of consensus—I am not sure whether it no deliberate intention to withhold from it the information includes the Chairman of the Committee or the right in question. 1045 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1046

Andrew Mackinlay: I do not believe it. and when it is stated that as long as permanent, irreversible physical damage to the person concerned is not created, Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I do not know whether it is such behaviour does not constitute torture, that is an true; I hope it is. I was rather puzzled that the director absurd use of language and they are matters of some general of the Security Service said in response to those alarm. concerns, “I cannot fully explain”. I can understand As my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire that he did not know to start with, but I would have and others have said, it is a matter of huge satisfaction thought that, by the time the matter had been investigated, and relief that there is not the slightest suggestion from he of all people should have been able to “fully explain” any quarter that employees of this country’s agencies why those matters had not been identified in the initial have ever tortured anyone or carried out cruel, inhuman search and put to the knowledge of the Committee. or degrading treatment. There is no suggestion either This problem involves not just this particular case. If that they have asked for that to be done by other people, this were purely an isolated matter, one might not need but the ISC report nevertheless sets out two problems to spend too much time on it, but if the reason given by identified by the documents that were eventually released the security services as to why those papers were not in the case of Binyam Mohamed. identified is that their internal information retrieval The first was that the UK agencies had information systems are so poor, in such disorder and so disorganised that Binyam Mohamed had been subject to extreme that these things just happen, and if the security services sleep deprivation. That was obviously a matter of some cannot either prevent them from happening or, in the concern, but the more important and disturbing problem longer run, explain why they have happened, we must is revealed in paragraph 152 of the report. Although the assume that this arises not just in the case of Mr. Binyam UK agencies had received the information about Mohamed. If we are to accept what the security services Mr. Mohamed, the Committee states: have said, this must be a general problem that refers to “There is no record that the Security Service took any action all the information that they hold. on receipt of this information”. However, the report goes on to say not only that the Mr. George Howarth: I think that the right hon. and service learned Gentleman should use the past tense, rather “continued to provide US liaison with background information” than the present, because we are assured that there have been dramatic improvements since that time. but that it provided the US authorities with questions that it wished Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I note that that is what the “to be put to Mr. Mohamed, up until April 2003”— security services have said. I very much endorse the view that is, the following year. expressed in the Committee’s report, which is: If the report is correct, it suggests that our security “The Agencies’ operational work is about knowledge and services were aware that Mr. Mohamed had been subject information, and the ability to retrieve such information is central to what presumably would be described as cruel and to the work with which they are charged.” degrading treatment but that it was willing to ask for It goes without saying that an intelligence agency that questions to be put to him, even though it did not know spends a huge amount of time, resources and effort in that the treatment had been concluded. So far as the collecting information, but then says, “We are unable to security services knew, the treatment might have been identify it within our own records,” when it might be continuing: if it was, then there is a case to answer with operationally desirable to do so has a lot of explaining regard to the question of complicity. I very much hope to do. This matter should never have been allowed to that those are not the facts of the situation, but they reach that stage. If the agencies say that that problem is would be consistent with the ISC report. now in the past, I very much hope that that is right. If it is not, they need to be given the help, resources and Mr. Tyrie: Does my right hon. and learned Friend support to ensure that their retrieval systems are so think that continuing to put questions in such circumstances improved—within weeks, not years—that such a problem is ever justified? will not recur. That is a crucial consideration. I come to the second of the three areas that I wish to Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I happily respond to my hon. comment on, which is very much in line with what my Friend. Our security services might know that a detainee right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire who continues to be detained had been subjected to (Mr. Mates) said: we have to get the problem of whether torture or cruel or degrading treatment in the past. there has been any complicity in improper behaviour However, if an opportunity were to arise for one of our into perspective. We are taking part in this debate in the security service officials to put questions to that detainee, aftermath of the Bush Administration in the United I do not believe that that should be ruled out simply States quite explicitly giving authority to their interrogation because of past behaviour by personnel who are citizens officials to perform what was euphemistically described of other countries working on behalf of other agencies as “coercive” interrogation—similar language was also in other parts of the world. If there is any doubt about used—which by any normal standards meant “torture”. whether such treatment is still going on, however, that introduces the question of complicity. That is quite a Mr. Tyrie: Enhanced. different matter, and that is where the line needs to be drawn. Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Enhanced interrogation, coercive That brings me to the third and final area that I wish interrogation—various phrases were used to try to avoid to comment on. It is that, whatever judgment we make saying the dreaded word “torture”. However, when on the matters that have been discussed so far, we will there is waterboarding and a series of other such practices always face a huge dilemma about sharing information. 1047 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1048

As my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire separate from the Select Committee system and to go has said—and it is not a matter of dispute—the UK down that alternative route, there was a reason for that, security agencies are a crucial part of the equipment which I do not believe is as persuasive a reason now as it that we have to prevent acts of terrorism in this country. was then. They therefore have to be able to co-operate, and the Within only a relatively short period, the very existence sharing of information is a crucial part of their armoury. of the intelligence and security agencies, MI5 and MI6, It just so happens that, for those of our agencies that had been declared for the first time. For them to be told are trying to deal with al-Qaeda or forms of Islamic that they would also be subject to oversight by a Committee extremist terrorism, the other intelligence agencies that of MPs posed a real question as to whether they would are most relevant and likely to have information of real feel sufficiently confident that they could open up in a value are those of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt—not significant and comprehensive way with such a Committee to mention the US itself. Without doing enormous if it was seen as merely part of the Select Committee damage to the objectives that we have asked our security system that the House had at that time. Therefore, services to carry out on our behalf, we cannot have a giving it a distinctive identity, making it a Committee of blanket ban on co-operation with other intelligence parliamentarians that was not answerable to the House agencies just because it is well known that many of in the same way as other Committees, and having its them torture those under their control, or carry out membership essentially appointed by the Prime Minister, activities of another kind. with all the other safeguards that were introduced, How do we get the balance right? What do we do to created the reassurance at that time, 16 years ago, that square the circle and reconcile these two conflicting this was an innovation worth introducing that did not objectives? Baroness Manningham-Buller said that we pose a threat to the security agencies. have to ask for assurances and that she sometimes We now have the benefit of the experience of those wishes that more had been asked for. I have no doubt 16 years. I am second to none in paying tribute to the that assurances are important, but I hope that I am not independence of the members of the ISC, including its misunderstood when I say that it would be very unwise current membership, who, for reasons that have been to rely too much even on assurances. If I were given mentioned by others, have demonstrated by their own absolute assurances by the Saudi, Pakistani and Egyptian actions, as have their predecessors, their independence intelligence agencies that they never tortured their prisoners and determination to carry out their responsibilities in or a particular detainee, frankly I would not believe it, a way that everyone would give them credit for. However, because it is contrary to the huge amount of evidence there is an additional objective and that is that the that exists that that is precisely what they do in many Committee must be seen by the British public and by all cases when they think it appropriate. Simply asking for with a legitimate interest in these matters as an independent assurances might be thought to cover oneself if they are Committee. I think that it is, but I can understand why forthcoming, but the reality is that they are not worth some question that and why some perceive the matter to very much. No intelligence agency will say, “Well, seeing be unresolved. as how you ask, yes you are quite right, that is exactly what we have done. We have tortured the prisoners I do not think that the intelligence agencies would be under our control.” They will not say it. Why should unduly concerned if the Committee, which has evolved they, from their perspective? in a significant way already over the past 16 years, was I therefore come back to the approach that is required, to continue to evolve in a way that recognised the point and it has two ingredients. First—I will qualify this in a I made a few moments ago. I do not think that anyone few moments—we have to trust the agencies. Those would dispute that the members of the Committee, for who work in the Security Service and the Secret Intelligence example, should have to continue to sign the Official Service are people of the highest quality, and, I believe, Secrets Act. They should have been chosen in such a overwhelmingly, of the highest integrity and professionalism. way that ensures that, as individuals, they have a reputation When we have people of such calibre, we have to trust for integrity and independence that will be a reassurance them to a very significant degree to carry out their to the Prime Minister, the Government and the agencies. responsibilities in accordance with the rules, requirements The rules under which they operate should mean that in and norms of a civilised society. All the evidence we the vast majority of cases it is right and proper that have is that that is overwhelmingly what happens. Secondly, their evidence is taken in private. That does not necessarily and perhaps in their own interests—undoubtedly in mean that they cannot make up a Select Committee their own interests—they have to have guidelines. They with ultimate responsibility to this House. have to be given by the Government, by the country We have it within our power when we create a Select that they serve, and set the framework within which Committee to agree the constraints under which it they need to operate. Not only do they have to receive should operate. If a particular committee needs all the guidelines, but the guidelines have to be published. safeguards that the ISC has but, instead of it being a They have to be a matter of public knowledge so that Committee outside the structure of this House, it is the country is aware of what is happening, what might ultimately answerable, albeit with the constraints to happen and what should not happen. With such a which I have referred, I would not see it as a threat to framework, we would be reassured. the security agencies or as an impediment to their full The right hon. Member for Knowsley, North and co-operation with the Committee. It gives that little bit Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) paid a deserved tribute to of significant extra reassurance to the outside world—by his fellow members of the ISC. As I mentioned earlier, I which I mean the citizens of this country—that these was involved with the then Prime Minister, John Major, matters are being dealt with. in the deliberations that took place when the Committee At a time when Parliament is spending more time was first established. While it is indeed the case that we than ever before seeking to reassert the importance of concluded that it was more appropriate to have a Committee Parliament against the Executive and to win back some 1049 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1050

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind] It is a mickey-take of Parliament when that sort of thing happens and I just wonder who is to blame. Will of the powers that have been lost to the Executive over anyone own up to that cavalier handling by Parliament? the years, I see no obvious reason why, with the We need to watch that in the future. To be candid, I qualifications that I have enthusiastically accepted, the think it is indicative of the cavalier way in which the Intelligence and Security Committee should not be part scrutiny of our security and intelligence services has of that reform process. I hope that those who have been dealt with by a number of people, including Ministers expressed a different view will not have closed minds on and, I have to say, my colleagues on the ISC. They could this subject and will at least be willing to explore how have kicked up rough, protested and raised the matter this could be done in a way that would meet the real and earlier today with the Leader of the House of Commons, legitimate concerns that they expressed in their remarks. saying that Parliament had not had enough time to consider the 2009-01 report. Of course, the vein running 4.7 pm through everything I will say is the culture in the security and intelligence services of treating this place with Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): In the years contempt and bouncing things through. That is the real that I have been in the House of Commons, I have taken problem. Many of the remarks made by others, although part in most of these debates—more or less annually, they have not said that, buttress my case that there is an but there have often been some large gaps between the unhealthy, dangerous and undemocratic culture in our publication of the reports and time being found to security and intelligence services. I will amplify my discuss them in the House. They have been a very argument and justify it in my comments today. important part of my parliamentary calendar. I think and hope that this will be my penultimate Dr. Howells: I hope that my hon. Friend is not speech to the House of Commons, as I hope to have assuming—he would be wrong if he did—that the another opportunity to speak. It allows me to reflect on Intelligence and Security Committee was party to the the period I have been attending these debates. I have late delivery of the report to this House. We were always caught the eye of the occupant of the Chair, informed by the Prime Minister that it would be delivered because they are not very well attended—yet one of the yesterday, in good time for Members to read before this most critical areas of our role and responsibility in the debate. It was not delivered, but it is not the Committee’s House of Commons is to scrutinise this work. Fortunately, fault that it was not delivered. I very much hope that he as I say, there is always room to get in. will take that seriously. I want to make it abundantly clear—I am amazed Andrew Mackinlay: I most definitely do take it seriously, that somehow people infer some doubt about this—that and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for intervening. I fully recognise the outstanding professionalism, dedication He says that he had a promise that the report would be and courage of hundreds of men and women in our available yesterday, but does that make it any better? security and intelligence services. I say that without The fact is that the document should have been available qualification. I accept that parliamentary colleagues for a reasonable period. It was not available— with full spend an enormous number of hours deliberating in the knowledge and consent, he knew that, so why did he Committee and on their preparatory work, and I respect not kick up rough with the Leader of the House, who that. I have never, ever doubted it. However, there are was here earlier, and say that the situation is outrageous? areas for criticism and for encouragement to change, Why were we bounced into acquiescing in this disregard not just in relation to the Committee. There are also for parliamentary procedure? If he reflects on his areas where we must scrutinise and severely criticise the intervention, my right hon. Friend will see that it buttresses stewardship of some aspects of our security and intelligence my point, rather than gives some legitimate excuse for services by persons whose names, by definition, I do not what has happened. know but whose conduct, in my view, requires further and ongoing scrutiny. Why do I say that there is a culture of secrecy and contempt of Parliament? It is worth revisiting something Having said that, it would be remiss of me not to I have told the House before, about the time I put down dwell for a moment on something that we in the House a question to the Prime Minister asking who is the of Commons should jealously safeguard. I raised this Clerk of the Intelligence and Security Committee. The point earlier with Sir Alan, who clarified the position, reply came back, “We’re not going to tell you. It’s a but it still needs to be said. It really is outrageous that secret.” In fact, late one night, as I was reading the civil the 2009-10 report was published this morning, and service handbook, as one does, it fell open and I found that there was a presumption—made largely by the that the Clerk was named there. This story is treated Privy Counsellors in this place—that everything could with a degree of levity, and I have laughed at it myself, be scooped up and debated together: the debate outlined but there is a serious point: what happened is indicative on the Order Paper, on the 2008-09 report, could be of that secret culture. conflated with the debate on the 2009-10 report and the two dealt with at the same time. Did others notice that, earlier, the Foreign Secretary let out the fact that Intelligence and Security Committee I put the problem simply: approximately 600 MPs do is going to be away next week? Now, certainly a few not know of the existence of the 2009-10 report because years ago, it would have been considered unbelievably they are not here in the House of Commons today. reckless for him to declare that. When I went to our own dear Vote Office—I make absolutely no criticism of its staff—to ask for papers for Sir Malcolm Rifkind: It still is! today’s debates, I was given the 2008-09 report; only when I came into the Chamber and listened to the Andrew Mackinlay: The hon. Member for Kensington Chairman of the Committee did I realise that there was Pentlands, or something or other, says, “It still is.” I another document worth looking at. thought so, too, but then other people compounded the 1051 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1052 fact, so everybody knows that the Committee is away Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that you have presided next week somewhere. I remember being at the Members’ over similar debates, so you will remember how I have entrance a few years ago. My right hon. Friend the referred in the past to a “dotty document”. Some years Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) was there, along ago, there was a document that was almost 30 per cent. with a few other people. I passed pleasantries. They dots; now, the dots have greatly diminished and progress were all looking rather sheepish, and they got into a is being made. I rejoice in the fact that, at this stage, white van. I thought it rather amusing and wondered things are beginning to change and there is an argument where they were going. I discovered, of course, that they for greater scrutiny. The very important thing that the were going off on Committee business. Committee Chairman and even my good friend, the That secret culture makes the whole thing a nonsense. conservative right hon. Member for East Hampshire People should focus on the things that really matter—real (Mr. Mates), have acknowledged is that the new Committee security, of which I am very mindful at this time of needs a new home and the Cabinet Office should not grave peril to our national security. I need no lessons in provide its secretariat. However, I take encouragement recognising that there is a very grave situation internationally. from the hon. Member for Westminster— The threat of terrorism is real both from al-Qaeda and similar groups and also in terms of Northern Ireland. I Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Kensington and Chelsea. am very concerned about the gravity of the situation, but sometimes people play games and do not focus on Andrew Mackinlay: Kensington and wherever, yes. what really is important. Pentlands, isn’t it? He spoke very well in saying that the I have acknowledged the work load of my right hon. Select Committee approach could be taken. If we are Friend’s Committee and the dedication and diligence of on a journey to that destination—I am sure, as night its members, but a theme of this afternoon’s debate has turns into day, that it is going to come about—there is been whether it could or should be a Select Committee. the question of the secretariat of the Committee. The If we were to revisit these annual debates in which I right hon. Member for East Hampshire talked about have taken part, we would find that, very early on and finding a new home at the Ministry of Justice. Why not for many years afterwards, when I even suggested that it leapfrog that so that the matter lies with the Clerk of the become a Select Committee, there would come from the House of Commons? The secretariat may well need direction of Hampshire a reaction implying that I was special accommodation, but that can be removed from stark staring bonkers. I see a chink today, because other the Charles Barry building—the parliamentary estate people have talked about the Committee possibly being can be wherever one likes, with all the modern technology a Select Committee. Indeed, the right hon. Member for and security devices as regards eavesdropping, security Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who is not in his of documentation and so on. It would be a wonderful place now, rightly said that it is not the title that leap forward if its location were vested in the Clerk of matters, but the Committee’s function. the House of Commons, with all the obvious reassurances All that I have said, consistently, has been much in to the intelligence community that there would be security. line with the things that some Members have uttered That could be achieved. Why go to the Ministry of today but did not before. Of course we would have Justice? Why not bring it to the legislature, which would special ground rules for any Select Committee that be so healthy in reassuring those of us who feel concern absorbed the ISC’s function, and of course much evidence as regards the democratic test in relation to these areas? would be given in private, and so it should be, but what Surprise was expressed that when Baroness has been refreshing today is the acknowledgement by Manningham-Buller became a Member of Parliament, some sensible Members that there is scope—I think that she expressed the view that the Committee could be a is the word—for some hearings to be held in public. Select Committee. One of our colleagues, in the way that I interpreted the tone of his comments, seemed to Mr. Mates: I am sorry, but I hope the hon. Gentleman be saying, “That’s a bit much.” He seemed quite hurt was not trying to put words in my mouth. I would never that she had never uttered that comment when she was have used the phrase “stark staring bonkers” in his on the other side and under scrutiny in the Committee. context. All I would say is that he has been absolutely But it was not her role to do that. I just think it is consistent in his arguments—despite all the facts that wonderful that she now says that it can be a parliamentary we have. That is my criticism of him. If we were able to Committee: what a healthy development that is. construct a Select Committee, would we not advocate it, I said that I wanted to deal with the nature of the given the grief that we have had from the Cabinet Office Committee and our rubrics today, which are wholly over the past year? We have considered the proposal, inadequate in that we are being bounced into also and there are many factors about which the hon. considering the other document, the 2009-10 report. Gentleman, who is becoming impatient to reply, does The other area that I want to touch on is the work that not know or, if he does, does not accept. If it were our colleagues have done, very enthusiastically and possible to construct a Select Committee, that would be diligently, in terms of scrutiny. We have heard that some fine. He might now refer to me again with that phrase, files were lost, and that is mentioned in some of the but I still do not think that the proposal would be documentation. In using the term “files” I am referring possible or make the Committee any better than it is. to electronic data and so on. It is breathtaking and Andrew Mackinlay: The right hon. Gentleman is inexcusable that the intelligence agencies do this. I also incapable of recommending that, because although he have to tell the House that I find it unbelievable. is a very nice man he is deeply conservative. He has One of my colleagues remarked in response to something reaffirmed my view that there is resistance, although it I said from a sedentary position, “The hon. Gentleman is notable that some of his colleagues have departed is sometimes funny, but that is not funny.” I did not from his view this afternoon. mean what I said to be funny; I was referring to the fact 1053 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1054

[Andrew Mackinlay] “criticised the results of GCHQ’s 2008 laptop computer audit. This showed that 35 laptops were unaccounted for”— that there is a culture in the security and intelligence 35 laptops belonging to one of our security and intelligence services—there always has been, and I believe that it agencies. That is just amazing! In any other circumstances, endures today—that is really quite menacing and there would be a major carpeting of somebody. There threatening to our democratic values. It does not apply would probably be disciplinary action and, in some to everybody, but there is a minority. This year, there cases, dismissal. That body deals with our national have been inspired smearings of people such as the late, security, and I find it amazing that we cannot be told great Jack Jones and the late, great Michael Foot, trying more about what was the cause of the problem and to imply that they were somehow less than patriotic. We what happened. demonstrably know from archive material that that was That case is particularly amazing against the backdrop being said, but I think that it is even being pump-primed of the previous report. I have just checked and found today, for reasons we can only guess. out that you were in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that a very small minority of people in the on 7 May 2009 when we debated the 2007-08 report. security and intelligence services think they are omnipotent Paragraph 177 of that report drew our attention to —that they can decide what is in the interests of the top-secret Government papers left on a train by a United Kingdom exclusively, without regard to member of the Joint Intelligence Committee. It was parliamentary and other values. Let me buttress my reported that a prosecution took place on 28 October case, because people might say, “Mackinlay, you can’t 2008, and the Prime Minister appointed Sir David just say extravagant things like that.” Omand to investigate the matter. The Committee told However, I say to those people that they should look the House: at the speeches of Mr. Evans, the head of MI5. He has “At the time of writing, the Committee is awaiting sight of made a number of speeches on various states that are Sir David’s report”. active in gathering political intelligence. What is political I said that I thought that that was very wrong and was intelligence? I fully accept that some research, development very strong in my criticism of Sir David for not having and attempts to find out what our potential adversaries produced that report. A rather hurt Sir David Omand are doing are essential to our national security—that is wrote to me after the debate, basically saying, “You’re intelligence; it is core business. What is not core business, unfair and you’re rotten, Mackinlay, because it’s not my for Mr. Evans or anybody else, is when he tries to decide fault. My report has been delivered to the Prime Minister. whose views people in a democracy should seek, what It’s not my property.” That is the position, and it was in they should read and when they should meet people, parliamentary documentation last year. Does any member particularly when those people are members of a legislature. of the Committee want to intervene to tell me why the That is an affront to democracy, and Mr. Evans needs report was not mentioned this year if the Committee to have his knuckles rapped. referred to it last year and said, “We haven’t received it Parliament needs to ask another question. There is yet,” and if there was implicit—if not explicit—criticism no interface between Members of Parliament and the of that? Why has the Committee not given us an update? security and intelligence services, save the Committee in Surely we are entitled to an update on such a serious question, which is not a parliamentary Committee. matter. However, Mr. Evans and his colleagues have a complicated If I did Sir David wrong last year, I give him an but interesting rubric whereby they talk to the press. It unqualified apology, but I would have liked him to write is all right for them to talk to, communicate with and to me to say, “Mackinlay, I understand the report has meet the press, but never Members of Parliament. That now been delivered to the Committee,” because it might is wholly indefensible and very dangerous to our body otherwise seem as if the report is still being sat on. politic and our democracy, and I hope that it might one People are looking not at me, but at their documents, day be addressed by either the existing Committee or its because they are obviously feeling a bit uncomfortable successor parliamentary Select Committee. about this. They have failed in their duty to Parliament. I wish to refer to one or two matters that our colleagues What is the answer? Will any member of the Committee have drawn to our attention in the report with which we seek to explain to me where Sir David’s report is? Has should be dealing exclusively—the annual report of the Committee received it? The silence speaks volumes. 2008-09. Page 8 states: “The Committee had previously been told that it was ‘very Mr. Mates: The answer is that the matter was decided unlikely’ that GCHQ would ever be able to meet the performance in the courts. The court came to a judgment, the person targets agreed with the Security Service. We are therefore reassured concerned received the appropriate punishment and that GCHQ now believes it is able to meet Security Service key Sir David put it down to what it clearly was: human requirements.” error. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman, who laughs, will tell Wonderful news but for the fact that the Committee was me how we will get human error out of the system. We told at first that it was very unlikely that GCHQ would will not. ever be able to meet the performance targets. How did the sudden transformation take place? Were the person Andrew Mackinlay: The right hon. Gentleman misses or persons who communicated that view in the first the point. The point is that when the Committee reported place telling us porky pies? Were they being deliberately to Parliament last year, it—not me—complained that it incompetent or misleading? Why the sudden change? I had not seen the document. Is it unreasonable for us to think we are entitled to know. Certainly it justifies think that the Committee would explain in this year’s further amplification. report that it has received Sir David’s report, or at least On page 10, our friends draw to our attention the fact to allude to his conclusions and findings? I rest my case that the National Audit Office on that. 1055 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1056

Page 21 of our colleagues’ report states: intentionally deprived of sleep by his captors while in detention in “The loss of Secret Intelligence…data and its subsequent Pakistan. For example, one of the *** telegrams states: appearance on eBay represents a clear breach of data security *** procedures, combined with a lack of adequate guidance and *** enforcement. Although this happened some years ago, the Committee ***.” is nonetheless disappointed”— We should be told what those dots represent. that is an understatement— “that data was not being handled securely.” The most worrying aspect, because it relates to stewardship and conduct by our security and intelligence There is a catalogue of mishandling and incompetence services, comes in paragraph 152, which states: by individuals in the security and intelligence services, “The Security Service Officer who interviewed Mr. Mohamed and we use adjectives such as “disappointed”! I am told on 17 May…said that he could not recall whether or not he was time and again, particularly in answer to parliamentary aware of this information prior to the interview.” questions, that we do not discuss security matters. I Again, I do not believe that. He would either be emphatic actually understand that, but there seems to be a cavalier, and say, “I was denied this information and I am lackadaisical attitude in some parts of our security and indignant and angry about that” or he would recall it. It intelligence services, and the Committee that is supposed is an unhealthy and dangerous fudge. to have oversight says it is “disappointed”. I find that amazing and breathtaking. Dr. Howells: Is my hon. Friend aware that he is A number of colleagues have referred to Diego Garcia. referring to a court case involving someone known as Page 41 of the report states: witness B who may be charged with an extremely serious “While the then Prime Minister’s specific assurances to this offence? Is it not immensely irresponsible for my hon. Committee in relation to Diego Garcia— Friend to say that he does not believe witness B, when he has read none of the documents and knows none of The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): It is pronounced the evidence, and will not that do a great deal to “Diego Garcia” not “Dago Garcia”. jeopardise witness B’s trial if he ever comes to trial?

Andrew Mackinlay: Whatever. The important thing is Andrew Mackinlay: All I have done is read out the what the report says, which is that the Prime Minister wording of my right hon. Friend’s report. If he reads in received specific assurances the Official Report tomorrow the comments by the right “on the basis of firm assurances from the United States” hon. Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), he will and that see that he went way beyond what I said— “these recent developments have demonstrated that the UK must be more robust in verifying such assurances in the future.” Mr. George Howarth: On a point of order, Madam As colleagues on both sides of the House have said, it is Deputy Speaker. My right hon. Friend the Member for correct that we need to be more robust in verifying Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) was objecting not to what my assurances. Indeed, we want more than assurances. We hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) need to have absolute confidence that what the US tells read out, but the interpretation that he put on it, which the British Prime Minister has total veracity.This particular could indicate that he was prejudging the case. It is very incident suggests that the US is beginning to take us for serious when someone uses this House to cast doubt on granted. As the House knows, without consulting the evidence that we have put in our report when a court United Kingdom, which had sovereignty, the US put case may be pending. some people from Guantanamo into Bermuda. The other week, Secretary of State Clinton also sent the Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): As the right message that somehow the United Kingdom should hon. Gentleman knows, that is not actually a point of negotiate with the Argentines on the sovereignty of the order: it is a point of debate. However, I reiterate that Falkland islands. Members have to be careful about what they say about cases that might be pending in the future. Chris Bryant: I want to make it clear, before my hon. Friend misrepresents Secretary Clinton, that that is not Andrew Mackinlay: Absolutely, Madam Deputy Speaker, what she has said. She has not changed the position of and I intend to move on. The only thing that I would the US, which—since 1947—has been to be neutral on say is that Judge Neuberger has made statements that the matter. are comparable to what I have just said in the House. My final point, to which I have alluded before, is that Andrew Mackinlay: We can read her comments for we know that some areas of our security and intelligence ourselves and decide what her intention was or whether services have in years past been involved in collecting it was just a careless statement. intelligence in industrial disputes. At some point, we need a reassurance that people are not freelancing or The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton undertaking unauthorised action, without ministerial (Mr. Davey) spoke well on the issue of paragraphs 151 cover or approval. I think that danger still lurks there. and 152. I note that they contain a lot of dots. People have, in the past—and now, I believe—been Paragraph 151 states that subject to arbitrary and what in other jurisdictions “information”— would be called unconstitutional oversight and examination, relating to the interrogation of Mr. Mohamed— and their legitimate private interests have been examined “had been provided to the Security Service and SIS in May 2002, by unauthorised freelancers in our security and intelligence before the Security Service officer interviewed Mr. Mohamed. services. That threat has been borne out by evidence as This information made it clear that Mr. Mohamed had been and when things have been leaked through archives and 1057 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1058

[Andrew Mackinlay] Our intelligence services certainly do a vital job, and they are doing it, at the moment, in very difficult so on. If that was happening in the 1960s, 1970s and circumstances, so they deserve our full support. We 1980s—during the miners dispute—why should we assume need strong security services to protect us from the that it is not happening today? That needs to be addressed threat of dangerous extremism, and of course much of by Parliament very soon. what they do must necessarily remain a secret, as has In conclusion, I am pleased to have taken part in been said. In this area, we need—almost uniquely— these debates over the years and today. Apart from my accountability without full transparency. It will, and hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick), should, always be thus, which is why the work of the I feel that on many occasions, including today, I have Committee, and the trust that we want to be able to been alone on this matter. Even Horatius had two fellas place in it, is so important. with him! Nevertheless, I am pleased that I have been We have had a string of revelations and allegations in able to amplify my views in these debates, because this is recent years about the intelligence services’ complicity a vital area that needs to be looked at by Back-Bench in extraordinary rendition—the practice, which was Members who have not been picked by the Prime Minister greatly extended by President Bush after 11 September, and who will express the views and anxieties of minorities of kidnapping people and taking them to places where in the way that I have been able to do. they may be maltreated or tortured. On the basis of what I have seen and heard, I am confident that our 4.41 pm services do not want to be involved in such practices. Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): I might turn From what I can tell, the services themselves believe out to be in a minority of MPs who have spoken in this that the practice is counter-productive for intelligence debate—not only will I be here for the winding-up gathering, and, in any case, revelations of possible speeches, but I am not retiring. involvement sap their morale. They want and need the Having mentioned retirement, I pay tribute to the public to have confidence in them, and accountability is hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay). Many for their benefit as well as for ours. That is why we do people may disagree with what he has said in his time—one them a disservice if we fail to investigate credible allegations could sense that in the Chamber today, from one or two when they are made. quarters—but the fact is that he has been an extremely I created the all-party parliamentary group on independent-minded MP, a parliamentarian of the best extraordinary rendition in December 2005 to try to get sort and a tremendous colleague to have around the to the bottom of the issue of rendition, and of any House. I should add, while I am at it, that the right hon. possible UK involvement in it. After careful thought, I Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) has done a made a number of specific allegations. The first was tremendous amount of good work in the House of that the UK had facilitated or been complicit in rendition. Commons in the period when we have overlapped. In a The second was that Diego Garcia was being used for moment, I will make a few remarks that he might that purpose. The third was that the UK’s armed forces construe as critical, but I do not want him to feel that might also be involved in rendition. It is worth recalling that detracts from what I have just said. Finally, I would the blanket denials with which those points were met. like to refer to a constituent of mine sitting on the back row, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire First, I shall quote the then Foreign Secretary, the (Mr. Mates). He gave an outstanding and very detailed right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), who speech, which may be his last contribution in the House. likened what I and others were suggesting to conspiracy We will remember it for a long time. theories. He said: That was the first point I wanted to make. I am the “Unless we all start to believe in conspiracy theories and that tail-end Charlie from the Back Benches this afternoon, the officials are lying, that I am lying, that behind this there is some kind of secret state which is in league with some dark forces and having sat here listening to the debate it is hard to in the United States…there simply is no truth in the claims that avoid the conclusion that a great deal of behind-the-scenes the United Kingdom had been involved in rendition”. machinations has been taking place over the guidance— much more than has been revealed—but the fact that In a subsequent Westminster Hall debate, the then what has been surfacing has surfaced, in the context of Foreign Office Minister responsible for policy in this the Committee’s independence from the Prime Minister area said that to suggest that Ministers might not know and the Cabinet Office, is itself extremely corrosive of all the facts was the usual “conspiracy theory mantra”. public confidence in the ISC and the security services. I That Member is now the Chairman of the Intelligence regret that very much. and Security Committee, the right hon. Member for Pontypridd, sitting on the other side of the House. I am a strong supporter of the ISC. We can all sense the dedication with which parliamentary colleagues on Each of my allegations has been either supported by it go about their work. It is composed of senior and a court judgment or admitted in subsequent correcting very dedicated people trying to do their best, and a ministerial statements. I hope that the work of the number of them are in the Chamber this afternoon. We all-party group on extraordinary rendition has made a need to sustain confidence both in them and in those contribution towards getting to the truth behind all the working in the security services, who are trying to allegations, but it really should not be down to us to protect us. I hope that it will be in that context that hon. find out the truth about this stuff. The ISC should be Members will take some expressions of concern, which the body of parliamentarians with the job of getting to I shall make in a moment, about the extent to which the that truth and giving us confidence that it has done so. ISC might have been unable to get to the truth on some I was delighted when the Committee finally responded of the issues that it has investigated, and also my to my repeated requests for an inquiry into rendition by conclusions about the need for reform of the ISC and launching one, and its report was eventually published for a judge-led inquiry into rendition. in July 2007. But did the Committee succeed in getting 1059 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1060 to the truth? The courts have recently suggested that it departmental reorganisations, which, on average over did not. It seems, from the High Court and Appeal the past four years, are now running at more than 20 a Court judgments in the Binyam Mohamed case, that year. The CAG concluded that such reorganisations the ISC did not know what was going on. The relevant cannot be justified on value for money grounds. Perhaps quotation from those judgments is: the reorganisation proposed by the Committee can be “The ISC Report could not have been made in such terms if justified, and perhaps, even if it costs more, it can be the 42 documents”— justified on other grounds—I do not know, and I could that is, the key documents involved— not possibly be in a position to judge that, sitting where I do now—but the proposal gives me pause. Rearranging “had been made available to it”. the chairs in Whitehall might not be the most fruitful The judge’s conclusion sits oddly with that of the Chairman approach to bolstering public confidence. The ISC’s of the Committee, who, as recently as August 2009, said proposals are probably not the right way forward, therefore, that he was “confident” that the ISC knew what was and they are certainly not enough to give the public going on in regard to rendition. He made that claim in confidence that the ISC remains sufficiently independent an interview on the “Today” programme, a transcript of and capable of getting to the truth. which I have, although I shall not read out any more of it now. For some time I have been arguing for a change that Baroness Manningham-Buller’s recent extremely would help on both counts—that is, on increasing interesting contribution contained the conclusion that independence and on giving the public confidence that the ISC was likely to be reformed to become a full Select the Committee can get closer to the truth. We need to Committee of Parliament. There are certainly many address the fact—this cannot be avoided—that whatever people who want that, and we have heard support for the reality, the appearance is that the Committee is not that view around the Chamber this afternoon. sufficiently independent of the Prime Minister and the Executive, a point that is reinforced by the report that I have not supported that proposal—and I still do not has just been published. support it—for a number of reasons, but primarily because I am not yet convinced that the benefits in In recent years, a string of appointees have come out bolstering public confidence will not be more than of senior positions in the Government to chair the ISC, offset by the loss of trust between Parliament and the only to return to the Front Bench immediately afterwards. services, and the reduced access that could result from That is true of at least three, if not four, of the last five that, which would reduce the Committee’s opportunities Chairman. I am not impugning the integrity of any of to get to the truth. Full congressional committees in the the people involved, and experience of government, US—not special committees—do that sort of work, but particularly in a relevant area, is of course extremely we do not have their strong investigative tradition to valuable in chairing the ISC. However, the revolving draw on, backed by the courts and underpinned by the door between the chairmanship of the ISC and the separation of powers. Perhaps we should, but that Government cannot and should not be the norm, if we would entail a much broader reform of the constitution, want the public to have confidence that the ISC and its which nobody at the moment is seriously entertaining, work are wholly independent of Government. In any and nor do I support it. case, once the appearance of independence has gone— Having said all that, I think that we must have reform whatever the reality—so has the point of having the of the ISC. Even the Government more or less accept ISC in the first place. Something must be done. that in their response to the most recent annual report, I served on the Wright Committee, whose primary and so, of course, does the ISC in its report, with its purpose was to bolster public confidence in Parliament proposals for greater independence from the Cabinet in a much broader context. The Committee adopted my Office. As has been pointed out, by the hon. Member proposal that the Chairmen of Select Committees should for Thurrock among others, it is wholly unacceptable, be elected by secret ballot of the whole House, for as well as being a reflection of the need for reform, that which I had been campaigning for more than a decade. the 2009-10 report should have been published only a I also won support for my proposal that the Chairman few hours before this debate. The same goes for the of the ISC—which, of course, is not a Select Committee— Government’s failure to publish the interview guidance should be elected in the same way as Select Committee for those operating overseas. Chairmen, subject to a prime ministerial veto at the I have not had time to digest either document, and nomination stage. I can think of no good reason why that includes the ISC’s proposals for reform and the that relatively modest proposal cannot be implemented Government’s response to them. None the less, it strikes immediately, and nor could the members of the Wright me that the Committee might be mistaken in its principal Committee. Its implementation would at least block the proposals and that the Government might be right in revolving door, and that would bolster public confidence their response. I have only had the opportunity to see a little. this in the past few hours, but as the Government pointed out, it would be “unusual”, to say the least, I believe that much more needs to be done, but I shall now confine myself to the subject of rendition. If we “for a scrutiny body to have its funding linked to the function it scrutinises”. want to achieve closure, we need the maximum possible disclosure. Neither Ministers nor the ISC appear to That is a valid point. have known the truth about this matter, and we have to As for the need for yet another departmental reshuffle, ask ourselves whether the tools of parliamentary scrutiny that would take a lot of justifying, particularly in a have been adequate. More than two years ago, I reluctantly week when the Comptroller and Auditor General concluded that in order to plug the gap in relation to of the National Audit Office has strongly criticised United Kingdom involvement, we needed a brief judge-led the unprecedented number of central Government inquiry on rendition. 1061 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1062

Mr. George Howarth: Did I mishear the hon. Gentleman, may think we have got all the facts now, but we cannot or did he say that Ministers and members of the Intelligence be certain, because other facts may emerge in the future. and Security Committee had not been telling the truth? One wonders when these successive judicial inquiries will finish, and I might ask this question: was that not Mr. Tyrie: No, I did not say that. I said that they had why we were elected to this place? Were we not elected not been able to get to the truth. For example, I consider to this place to make decisions and to do that work it indisputable that Ministers were unable to get to the ourselves as best we can, and to learn from our failures truth when I was given blanket denials on the issue of and to do better next time? Diego Garcia. For whatever reason, they were unable to tell me, or the public, what had been going on. Mr. Tyrie: There were a lot of points in that intervention and I shall not try to answer them all—indeed, I am not Mr. Mates: We must make sure that we get this point quite sure that I can remember them all. The first point right. As my hon. Friend says, neither the ISC nor the that I took from the right hon. Gentleman’s comments Government got to the truth about Diego Garcia initially. was that he is happy with the principle that we should Both we and the Government asked questions of the have a short judge-led inquiry to draw a line under this United States Government, who are in control there. and to give the public the confidence that we are moving They who gave us a flat and definitive answer—they forward in the right way. The right hon. Gentleman’s were not in any doubt—which we therefore accepted. If second point was that he could not have done any better my hon. Friend is telling me that a judge would have got and he was acting on the basis of all the information a different answer out of them, that is one thing; but that was available. I do not doubt that; I am quite sure what subsequently happened, to the embarrassment of that he did not look at some document and say, “Well, I the Foreign Secretary, the Government and, indeed, all think I’ll keep that under wraps.” I am not suggesting of us, was that the United States Government changed that for a moment, but I am suggesting that there might their story. We were never going to get to the truth of have been something defective in the way we set about what the Americans were doing on an island which is finding out what is going on and making sure information within our sovereignty but totally under their control is properly reported to Ministers. My right hon. and until they told us the truth. How would any form of learned Friend the Member for Kensington and Chelsea judicial or extra-judicial inquiry have got that out of the (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) also made that point, with Americans before they chose to tell us? specific examples. The right hon. Gentleman’s third point was to suggest Mr. Tyrie: I think that my right hon. Friend that we are supposed to be doing this work ourselves, misunderstands the purpose of an inquiry. The purpose rather than having a host of judge-led inquiries, and would not be to suggest that we could have done much that was precisely the point I was about to make. It is better if we had taken some other route, but it would important to draw a distinction in respect of what has bolster public confidence if all the information about been going on in the courts—between what is or is not rendition were available to us, so that we could form a sub judice. I have been surprised at some of the rulings judgment, draw a line under it and then move on. That on that, in that either something is sub judice or it is not case and other cases have created a sense that there may sub judice, and the police are investigating things all the be other things which we do not know and which time. It strikes me that that process should, and will should be known, which is itself corrosive. I have absolutely have to, continue. I have never been a strong supporter no idea whether that is true, and I am making no of the view that the only way to solve this is by going specific allegations, but I do not think that my right around trying to find as many people as we can to hon. Friend has fully understood the motivation of prosecute. Besides, it seems to me that the fact that there those who call for a judge-led inquiry. is the threat of prosecution may in some cases make it Incidentally, I am not alone in calling for such an more difficult to get to the truth, because people will be inquiry. I am supported by Lord Carlile, the Government’s extremely cautious about what they say or divulge. own independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, by My view is that a short judge-led inquiry might the Joint Committee on Human Rights, by the leaders provide a way for us more quickly to draw a line under of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties and this than we can through a much more protracted by a wide range of other experts in the field. This is not process in the courts. That protracted process might a bizarre, heretical view; I could even argue that it is also, whether fairly or not, lead to a further degradation now the mainstream view, which was certainly not the of respect for both the intelligence services and the ISC. case when I first proposed it. I also have to say that, I want this process to be brought to an end as soon as fairly or unfairly, many people have been led to call for possible. Reading between the lines of Baroness this at least in part because of the appearance of Manningham-Buller’s speech, I had the impression that shortcomings in the ISC process. she and I were not a long way apart on that point. Dr. Howells: I have not got a problem with a judge-led The right hon. Gentleman’s final point was about inquiry, if it is designed to try to reassure the public that judicial inquiries substituting for Parliament. I completely we have now got all the facts out, but I certainly do not agree that it is a sad reflection on the apparent inadequacy agree that either the ISC or Ministers lacked the means of parliamentary scrutiny that we have had a string of of getting to the truth at the time. What we did not have failures by Select Committees to achieve what we expect at the time was the evidence from the Americans. I of them and that we have had a string of inquiries such would not have stood up in the Chamber and said I was as Hutton, Butler and Chilcot. absolutely certain about our having the means to get to My overriding conclusion is that rather than leave the truth at the time, if I was not absolutely certain this area to Parliament, the need to get to the truth about that. I also remind the hon. Gentleman that we trumps any constitutional concern. In my view, an 1063 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1064 inquiry is not only necessary, but almost inevitable, not about the worrying resurgence of dissident terrorism in least because I suspect that if we can get round the Northern Ireland. That is clearly something in which problems triggered by evidence to it generating prosecutions the House needs to take a continuing interest and I —that was the point I made a moment ago—the security hope that the successor Committee will pursue it. services may soon conclude that they would benefit I am sorry that this afternoon’s debate has not covered from this as a means of drawing a line as quickly as at all the threat from cyberterrorism. One worrying possible. Only by drawing that line can we move on, and point that emerges from the Committee’s report is the to do that we must get to the truth. Of course I plethora of acronyms—the number of different recognise that parts—perhaps quite a bit—of such an Government bodies charged with addressing the threat inquiry would have to be conducted in private, but once to cybersecurity. The Committee expressed doubts about we have accomplished that we can rebuild confidence in whether the Government’s approach to cybersecurity the security services and maximise their ability to protect was being co-ordinated effectively. Those of us outside us within a framework of law. It is with that in mind, the curtain who rely on media reports still know enough above all, that I have come forward with the proposal from what is in the public domain about the growing that we should have an inquiry. threat to this country’s interests from cyberterrorism to believe that that should be a prime area for the Committee’s 5.6 pm work in future. Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): I add my My right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire salute to members of the Intelligence and Security rightly talked about the central importance to the Committee and, in particular, to the four members who effectiveness of British intelligence and security agencies have announced that they intend to leave the House at of their being able to share information in confidence the forthcoming general election: the hon. Member for with allies—in particular, our critical intelligence-sharing Wirral, South (Ben Chapman); my right hon. and learned relationship with the United States of America. As my Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram); my right right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), (Mr. Hague) made clear during his speech, Conservative who I suppose we must term the “father” of the ISC— Members regard the integrity of that intelligence-sharing relationship as of the highest importance to the security Chris Bryant: The doyen. of the United Kingdom. We support the control principle, and I reiterate the Mr. Lidington: The Minister says the doyen, but I question that my right hon. Friend posed to the Foreign suppose he is more continentally minded than I am. Secretary. In the light of the recent court judgments, do Above all, I pay tribute to the ISC’s Chairman, the right the Government believe that, regardless of the circumstances hon. Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells). Listening of any particular case, there is a need either for legislation to the tributes during today’s debate, he must have at or for some other means to assert the principle of times feared that he was in a dream and listening to the control of intelligence by its originator and to ensure eulogies at his own funeral. With all due respect to the that that is protected against conceivable future challenges, hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), I or do they believe that the recent Court of Appeal must say that the Chairman delivered a formidable judgment upheld that principle to such an extent that demonstration of independence in his opening speech. they can have confidence that it will not be threatened? When I from time to time debated against him from our Having read through the reports, I came to the view respective Front Benches, he occasionally came out that one important aspect of the ISC’s work is the with a comment from the Dispatch Box along the lines Committee’s concern about the stewardship of resources of, “My personal view is”, at which point one could see by the various agencies. Perhaps with the exception of the shudder spreading along the row of civil servants in the hon. Member for Thurrock, who touched on attendance to support him as they wondered quite what performance targets, we have not really debated this their Minister was about to say next. today, but that element of scrutiny is significant. It was This debate has centred very much on how to strike concerning to read that the Committee was dissatisfied the balance in our country between secrecy and the with the amount of detail to which it was being given accountability of the security and intelligence services, access over GCHQ’s SIGMOD—signals intelligence and I wish to discuss that theme a little later. The debate modernisation—project, given that that involves the also touched upon many aspects of the work of the expenditure of many millions of pounds of taxpayers’ security and intelligence agencies, and the report goes money. into rather more detail about that. I wish to allude The saga of the SCOPE interdepartmental IT project briefly to some of those aspects. is also disturbing. According to the Committee, that The report contains quite a lot about how the agencies major project was initiated in 2001. By January 2008, it set about establishing relative priorities and how the had clearly run into problems, but the Cabinet Office priorities for intelligence-gathering change over the years. said that concerted efforts were being made to deliver it For example, I believe that some 15 per cent. of the successfully and on time. Yet the implied note of work of the Security Service is directed towards tackling exasperation comes through from the Committee’s comment threats from east Africa, and Somalia in particular. I that, just three months later, the Cabinet Office announced hope that the successor Committee in the next Parliament that the project had been abandoned altogether. The will take forward that work and will also examine what Committee relates that that has probably meant the loss demands are being placed on our services by concerns of tens of millions of pounds. about terrorism within Yemen, which has been in the We know that the Committee has investigated that news a lot recently. I also noted the increased concern apparent debacle, but no report has yet been made expressed by the Committee, on behalf of the agencies, publicly available. I do not know whether one will be, 1065 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1066

[Mr. Lidington] must keep secret, in all our interests. That is completely unavoidable and any grown-up involved in politics has and it appears that contractual disputes between the to accept it. However, it is also inevitable that secrecy Government and the contractor or contractors involved breeds suspicion and mistrust, especially in an age when are delaying that further. I hope that those long-dragged-out people are no longer deferential and when they are arguments can be resolved quickly, because it is in the much less inclined to take on trust anything said by any public interest that we know as much as it is possible for kind of public agency. People are also now used to us to be told about how mistakes came to be made in being able to access and collate vast quantities of the management of such an important contract, and information instantly through the internet. what lessons can be learned and applied for the future. Allegations of torture and mistreatment in particular In paragraph 18 of the 2009-10 report, the ISC do untold damage to the UK’s reputation, not only here quotes all three agency chiefs as saying that they know but worldwide. When a senior foreign visitor to the UK that their agency is entering a period of financial austerity was detained and temporarily imprisoned the other in which difficult decisions about resources and priorities week, it was striking that within a matter of hours will have to be made, despite the overall increase in international satellite television channels were reporting expenditure that I am happy to acknowledge. Given that this man was being denied consular access, visits by that financial stringency, it is all the more important relatives and legal advice as though it were fact. I do not that Parliament makes sure, through the ISC reports, that want to stray into the details of that case, but it illustrates the money being made available is stewarded properly how quickly this country’s reputation can suffer around and that the taxpayer and the British public get the best the world, and not just among our own people. possible value for it. To nobody’s surprise, I think, my hon. Friend the My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) spoke at length Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) pointed about the unhappy saga of extraordinary rendition. I out that when we are dealing with the issues raised by should like to congratulate him on his dogged—and, in allegations of torture or mistreatment, we need to look the early months and years, rather lonely—persistence not only at the detail of individual cases, but at processes, in following this issue through. There is no doubt in my at habits of working by the agencies, both internally mind that this business damaged the standing of our and in their relationships with agencies in other countries. security and intelligence services in British public opinion. We have to assure ourselves, largely through the Committee, It has also harmed the reputation of the US, a development that we have been able to draw a line under previous that I believe is very unwelcome indeed. allegations and that we have the systems in place to ensure that we are true to the values and standards that Given the importance of being able to put the episode we champion in the world and to which we urge others behind us and draw a line beneath it, I am surprised that to adhere. Our inclination to support a judge-led inquiry the Government have baulked at the sort of judge-led derives from our concern to draw a clear line and to inquiry to which my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester allow the agencies to get on with their job on behalf of alluded, and that they seem to be dragging their feet all of us in the future. when it comes to subscribing to the UN convention on enforced disappearances. The former Minister, Lord Parliament and the public need the confidence that Malloch-Brown, championed that international instrument the ISC has all the access it needs to do its job, that it when it was agreed back in December 2006, but as yet will be given all the information it seeks from the the Government have neither signed nor ratified it. agencies, that Government will respect its independence After I had been pressing this matter, the Foreign and respond fully to its criticisms, and that Ministers Secretary wrote to me in October 2008 to say that the will publish reports without undue delay and then take Government were considering their position with regard action and carry through the reforms that they have to signature and ratification. He said that the FCO was publicly promised to make. consulting other Departments, but he also said: It does not give me pleasure to say this—because this “As the UK does not hold people incommunicado, or subject above all should be an issue where we should be able to any person to enforced disappearance, we had not considered the count on the maximum level of cross-party consensus—but ratification of this treaty an urgent priority against other business.” all through the debate we have heard from both sides of Now I am no lawyer, but it seems to me that what we the House a catalogue of examples of delay, incompetence now know about the renditions through the UK territory and failure to co-operate fully with the Committee. My of Diego Garcia leaves open the possibility, at the very right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire least, that we would have been in breach of our international spoke about the Government’s failure to fulfil their obligations, had the UN convention been in force. I promise to make available the Committee’s report on hope that the Minister for Europe will be able to assure the guidance on treatment during the interview of detainees me—either now, or when he replies to the debate, or overseas and to publish the guidance by the promised perhaps in writing later on—that the Government are date. I think he said that publication was put off because now showing rather more urgency in addressing this certain people would find it embarrassing. The Foreign matter than they have up to now. Secretary, in response to an earlier intervention from The core of the debate has been the question of how my right hon. Friend, seemed completely unsighted on we strike the right balance between secrecy and the proposal for an investigation into vetting. I hope accountability. Critical to that is the independence of that the Minister will have brief available when he the ISC, and its relationship with the Government and replies to the debate, but it struck me as extraordinary Parliament. I am more than willing to agree with the that Ministers charged with the supervision of the right hon. Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, intelligence and security agencies apparently did not East (Mr. Howarth) that the state has matters that it know that such an investigation was being proposed. 1067 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1068

Most trenchantly, we had the opening speech from also provided some of the most enlightening criticism the right hon. Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells), of modern British art and other matters in history, but I the Committee Chairman. He gave an account of his shall not recite them. battles with the Cabinet Office, and denounced the I shall try to answer directly as many of the points “Whitehall insiders” who were trying to thwart the that have been raised by right hon. and hon. Members efforts of his Committee to do its job and the unnamed as possible—[Interruption.] Unfortunately, I hear a officials who refused to co-operate with the Committee Whip coughing at that. I shall include the points raised or who even sought to intimidate the staff assigned to by Members who are no longer in their places. That is a work directly for it. Frankly, if that were happening in growing tendency and it is probably one that needs to any part of Government I would regard it as scandalous, be deprecated. but it is a national disgrace for it to be happening in respect of a body whose independence is so critical to The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks public confidence in our secret agencies. It is the (Mr. Hague) raised several matters. First, and perhaps responsibility of the Ministers in the Government of most importantly, he effectively made the allegation the day to know what is going on, to take appropriate that because the consolidated guidance has not yet been action to put things right and to ensure that certain published, agency staff are, in some way or another, behaviour ceases without further delay. working either according to old guidance, which would be inappropriate, or in some kind of vacuum. Of course, The right hon. Member for Pontypridd argued for that would be wholly and utterly inappropriate, and it is measures to entrench the independence of the Committee, not the case: there is no policy vacuum. Officers and including a move from the Cabinet Office to another agency staff are all working under a clear set of guidelines. Department. Whoever forms the Government after the The Prime Minister’s commitment was to consolidate next general election should address seriously and urgently and publish that guidance, and we should not overlook the proposals that he made and the proposals that have the fact that that is a remarkable thing to do. Not many come from other Members of the House who have other countries in the world have published guidance contributed to the debate. and it is a first step for this country, so it is significant As the right hon. Gentleman said, the agencies are and not something that we should do lightly or without the first to realise that they benefit most from rigorous serious thought. We are keen to make sure that we do scrutiny and from being seen to be accountable, through that as swiftly as possible, commensurate with getting his Committee, to Parliament and to the British people. the policy right. I heard what the right hon. Member for The safety of every family in this country depends in East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) said. His interpretation of considerable part on the professionalism, dedication the process that we have gone through is not entirely a and, in many instances, raw courage of the people who set of events that I recognise. work for our security and intelligence agencies. They The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks asked cannot respond to criticisms or challenges. We collectively about the control principle—the principle that intelligence owe it to them to protect their public reputation, and belonging to another country and that has been created that imposes on us the duty to ensure that we have by another country should not be released without the effective, trusted arrangements for scrutiny and agreement of that country.We believe that that is absolutely accountability and that Parliament and Government do essential to maintaining our own security. Otherwise, a better job than has, as the report makes clear, been the why would any other security agency in the world case in the past two years. volunteer its information to us? That is a matter of ongoing concern, but the situation is always complicated. 5.27 pm We have a very close relationship with a small number The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): Let me start of intelligence agencies in countries around the world—they by paying another full set of tributes to my right hon. are known to the House, I am sure, but the list starts Friend—and, indeed, my right hon. neighbour—the with the United States of America—and we have to Member for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells). When I was first proceed on the basis of trust in that relationship, because chosen as the Labour candidate in the Rhondda in the otherwise the relationship would not be worth having year 2000, my right hon. Friend and, for that matter, his and nor would the intelligence. We are committed to lovely wife Eirlys were very welcoming to me in a kind protecting the intelligence received from our partners way. I think of him as something of a mentor in this and maintaining that control principle, but we are also House. keen to make sure that, particularly when dealing with agencies where we are less certain of the processes and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the work procedures used, we take a robust line on ensuring that that he has done. It is a tribute to Parliament and to the there has been no abuse. The right hon. Gentleman said principles of Britain that a man who led the May 1968 that, broadly speaking, he agrees with us on that point. student sit-in and was the first person to break the I wholeheartedly agree with this point made in the cordon outside the US embassy when protesting against Committee’s report: the Vietnam war should end up chairing the ISC. There is a particular beauty to the fact that a former member “The Committee is concerned that the publication of other of the Communist party should assume that responsibility. countries’ intelligence material, whether sensitive or otherwise, threatens to undermine the key ‘control principle’ of confidentiality, One thing that has not yet been mentioned in this which underpins relations with foreign intelligence services”. debate is a key difference between this Committee and many others—the Chairman of the Committee is unpaid. I think we all agree. One cannot say that this is a Committee chairmanship The right hon. Gentleman expressed a great deal of that is the result of the patronage of the Prime Minister. scepticism, not to say sarcasm, about the national security We all want to pay to tribute to him for the work that he forum. In contrast, I believe that it is an important has done in this capacity and in many others. He has body. The forum consists of a group of independent 1069 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1070

[Chris Bryant] My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy)—this has been something of a Welsh experts, who are able to provide intelligent advice to debate—was a much respected Chairman of the Committee. Ministers on a series of national security issues in a way I shall not praise him as fully as I have others, because that would not necessarily come through to the individual he is continuing as a Member. He raised the issue of agencies through their Departments. Seven meetings of whether some sessions of the Committee could be held the forum have taken place since it was set up in March in public, and that issue has been much discussed this last year, and we believe that those meetings have been afternoon. I note what was said earlier about when valuable and useful. Ministers say, “My own personal view,” but my own The right hon. Gentleman raised the question of personal view is that there must be occasions when it Diego Garcia, as did several other right hon. and hon. would be possible to hold some elements of the Committee’s Members. My right hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd deliberations in public, but, as nobody has denied, it is made it clear that, when he made the comments he did also absolutely the case that the Committee must have as a Minister, speaking at the Dispatch Box, he did so in the power to reserve the large proportion of its sessions good faith. I do not think that anyone can doubt that for deliberation in private; otherwise, it simply would the categorical statements that we were given, and that not be able to consider secret material. There is more or we were therefore in no position to say other than, were less a consensus in the House on that. given—by ourselves anyway—in good faith. The question My right hon. Friend asked whether the Committee for us now is how to make sure that such situations should move from the Cabinet Office to the Ministry of cannot arise in future. We are keen to ensure that we are Justice, where he said he did not get his pay for a month. as diligent as possible in respect of Diego Garcia and That is what trade unions are for, of course—to make any other overseas territory. sure that one does get one’s pay in time. However, I am unconvinced that the move from the Cabinet Office to The right hon. Gentleman insisted that there should another Department is the most important element of be full investigation in all cases, and he is absolutely the reforms that will need to take place. Although I fully right—of course there should. Several speakers this accept that the Committee’s recommendations in relation afternoon have referred to the fact that several civil to the Cabinet Office have some merit, not least because cases are going through the courts, and there are two in terms of security issues the Cabinet Office has taken Metropolitan police investigations. However, I was on a much more significant role than it had when disappointed by the comments made by the right hon. the right hon. Member for East Hampshire joined the Gentleman and, for that matter, his hon. Friend the Committee, I do not think that where it is based is the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington), because I thought single most important issue that we need to address. they used weasel words. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton The right hon. Gentleman referred to being “inclined” (Mr. Davey) spoke about a series of different issues and, to hold an inquiry as long as the timing could be got in particular, about intercept evidence. The committee right, and I do not think that that really satisfies the said in its report: hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) at all. Then I “There has now been a comprehensive examination of the noticed that the hon. Member for Aylesbury said, first, issues involved in allowing intercept material to be adduced as “We support the idea of a judge-led inquiry,” and then, evidence in the UK. That it has failed to provide a viable model is “Er, we are inclined to support” such a proposition. I unsurprising, given the complexities of the issues involved. We have a sneaking suspicion that that means that somebody await the outcome of the further work now being done. We is trying to provide themselves with a vast amount of recommend that if this too fails to provide a workable solution wriggle room, because they know that in opposition then the issue should be considered closed.” sometimes people say one thing, whereas if they were in Many of us have always hoped that a magic wand government they might say another. would allow intercept evidence in the British justice system to become a valuable tool for securing more convictions and appropriate evidence, but I have yet to Mr. Lidington: The Minister is letting election fever see a single instance, in any prosecution in the world, of get the better of him. Our position is that we are the intercept evidence that has been allowed in that strongly inclined in favour of a judge-led inquiry, but country making any difference to the prosecution. we know that, first, there are possible legal proceedings that would affect, or probably affect, the timing of any Mr. Mark Oaten (Winchester) (LD): Does the Minister such inquiry; and secondly, if my party forms the next share my concern that one of the barriers to progress in Government, we would have access to information, and this area has been the reluctance of the telecommunications it would be possible to make to us representations that industry to engage properly in the process? are not possible when we are in opposition. We are simply saying that, if we form a Government, we want to ensure that we take a decision on the basis of all Chris Bryant: That is one of the issues that everybody representations and all information that is available, has wanted to look at, but my experience of the quite properly, to the Government of the day. Our telecommunications industry is that those involved want approach is exactly as my right hon. Friend the Member to be as helpful and supportive as they possibly can; for Richmond, Yorks described it. obviously, they often have commercial strictures and intellectual property issues that they want to address. No, I do not accept that that is one of the major Chris Bryant: If I were to look up “wriggle room” in obstacles. The major obstacle relates to protecting the the dictionary, I would be provided with exactly what integrity of the intelligence that we garner as well as the hon. Gentleman has just said, so I am grateful to protecting the possibility of gathering intelligence in him for deliberately un-clarifying the situation. future. That is the matter in hand. 1071 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1072

My right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, say the same of Australia and Canada, for instance. North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) is a splendid That is an important element of how we need to be able person. Is he standing again? He must be. to proceed, given the extensive daily, if not hourly, exchange of information between those security services. Mr. George Howarth: Yes. That is why many people were particularly sad about how the process rolled out in relation to Diego Garcia. Chris Bryant: I thought so. That is probably why my The right hon. and learned Gentleman is absolutely right hon. Friend asked about the integrity of the right that there are many other security services with Committee after the general election. He is absolutely which we do business that do not subscribe to the same right that we need to ensure that there is no attempt to values as we do. We have to be absolutely clear that we nobble—to use a word used by another Member—the do not just ask somebody in a casual way, “By the way, Committee’s structure or secretariat so that it is able to have you tortured this person?” We must ask good do less of a job after the general election than it has questions and engage in proper investigation as to the been beforehand. nature of the methods by which information was obtained. My right hon. Friend raised a matter that is important The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right that in the debate about whether the Committee should be a the guidelines have to be published, and we want to do Select Committee—the fact that it has to report to the that as swiftly as possible. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, as an essential part of the process, Foreign Secretary referred to the fact that we hope there whereas all other Select Committees report to the House. can be further meetings in the very near future, and we I am not sure that the ISC should report to the House therefore hope to be able to publish the consolidated without having reported to the Prime Minister, because guidance alongside the report. The right hon. Member a specific responsibility and a specific degree of trust for East Hampshire was absolutely right about what come with that element of reporting. would have to be published at the same time, and that The right hon. Member for East Hampshire—I should will be done as soon as possible. also refer to him as gallant; nobody else has done so, The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington but as a Lieutenant-Colonel in, I think, the Coldstream and Chelsea also referred to whether the Committee is Guards, he is undoubtedly gallant, and he certainly has independent. Of course it needs to be independent but, the best eyebrows in Parliament now that Denis Healey as I have said, it needs to have the trust and confidence has departed—pointed out that Committee is certainly to report directly to the Prime Minister. not a set of patsies; the scars on the backs of several My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Ministers in the past few weeks are evidence of that. He Mackinlay) referred at one point to people getting in a made important points about the difference between white van, including all the members of the ISC. I torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, believe that at the time he was referring to, my right the fact that one is more clearly established in law than hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen was the Committee’s the other, and that in some areas there is a wide divergence Chairman, so I am not sure whether the white van as to what is understood by cruel, inhuman and degrading had “Murphy’s” written on the side of it. My hon. treatment. He felt there was a strong argument that Friend got rather overexcited at one point, and I was there was no need for a judicial inquiry, and I rather worried about whether the white van was going to turn agree with him about that. up again. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North My hon. Friend has heard what I have said about (Mr. Winnick), who is no longer here, made the point hearings in public. There is substantial—[Interruption.] about public sittings, on which I have already commented. If he talks while I am talking, I cannot hear him. I hope The hon. Member for posh places—the right hon. he accepts that there is substantial agreement between and learned Member for Kensington and Chelsea us on that issue. He sometimes inclines towards conspiracy (Sir Malcolm Rifkind)—referred to the problems with theory about— record keeping. He is absolutely right. This is something that we accept, and the Committee has done an invaluable Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I know that it is service in pursuing the matter. We believe that we have difficult as the Minister is addressing the comments of a put in place much better record keeping, which should particular hon. Member, but it is important that the have been done before. Hansard writers are able to hear him and that he faces The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that it is the Chair. not good enough merely to ask for assurances in relation to Diego Garcia. The difficulty that we have— Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend sometimes subscribes to the conspiracy theory of life, despite not being a Sir Malcolm Rifkind: On a point of correction, it is member of Unite, so far as I am aware. My biggest not just about Diego Garcia, but about any situations concern about him, when he retires from the House, is where members of the British security services may be where he going to deliver these speeches. To his poor dealing with detainees held by another country. wife at home? [Interruption.] Maybe in the House of Lords, but he is in favour of an elected House of Lords, Chris Bryant: I realise that; I was going to come to so there is a difficulty there. that point. The hon. Member for Chichester referred to Specifically in relation to Diego Garcia, our relationship extraordinary rendition, and he has rendered the House with the security services of the United States of America and the country a significant service by his dogged is quantitatively and qualitatively different from our determination to follow the issue. I do not arrive at the relationship with some other security services. I would same view as him about whether there should be a 1073 Intelligence and Security Committee18 MARCH 2010 Intelligence and Security Committee 1074

[Chris Bryant] us to have additional legislation in this country, but that is a matter on which the Ministry of Justice leads, and judge-led inquiry, or particularly, to use his phrase, “a not something that we want to go into in the next short judge-led inquiry”. There is either a judge-led couple of minutes. Consequently, I am not going to inquiry, with the judge allowed to go wherever he or she propose legislation this afternoon. wishes, in which case it is almost invariably not short, or I am grateful to all who have taken part in the debate an inquiry that we determine has to be short, with this afternoon. I shall conclude by very briefly rather narrow parameters. acknowledging our enormous debt of gratitude to the The hon. Gentleman suggested that there should be a security services. We in Parliament owe them that debt secret ballot for the chairmanship of the Committee, not only for the security that they provide, but because and several Members have asked whether it would be they are often criticised in the public domain without possible for the Chairman to be a member of the being able to stand up and defend themselves. Opposition. I can see no ultimate reason why it would In 1986, I lived briefly in Argentina, which a few not be. We in the British system have a belief that they years earlier had been under a fairly vile and vicious are not just the Opposition; they are Her Majesty’s loyal dictatorship. One of my closest friends and I went to a Opposition. At the same time, it is important that the bar for a drink one evening. He suddenly went off—I relationship between the Chairman of the Committee presumed to the toilet—but after 45 minutes he had not and the Prime Minister is one of frank and open returned. I went to find him. He was a blubbering mess dialogue and trust. In certain circumstances, that may on the floor of the toilet because, as he told me, he had be better provided for by the current process. been systematically tortured for the best part of two The hon. Member for Aylesbury referred to the control years in a supposed hospital in Buenos Aires. The principle and asked whether we believe legislation is reason for his distress that evening is that the person necessary. That is a fairly technical matter that I might who had tortured him was sitting at the bar, and had write to him about. He also asked about the UN convention never been held to account. on enforced disappearance, on which the point that my It is not only that this Government will never and do right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary made some never countenance using or condoning it, or being months ago is still valid—we do not engage in enforced complicit in the torture that others use, but we would disappearances. always want to prosecute, with the greatest vigour, The hon. Member for Aylesbury asked about overseas wherever torture has been used. territories. On Second Reading of the Cluster Munitions Question put and agreed to. (Prohibitions) Bill yesterday, we said that the convention Resolved, in the Bill would apply fully in overseas territories, but That this House has considered the matter of the Annual we are still looking at the precise details of the convention Report of the Intelligence and Security Committee for 2008-09 on enforced disappearances. It might be necessary for (Cm 7807) and the Government’s response (Cm 7808). 1075 18 MARCH 2010 Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease 1076

Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease grandchildren. Obviously, it would be absolutely fantastic if a cure could be developed tomorrow and an early step Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House made towards a detection method. I hope that Government do now adjourn.—(Lyn Brown.) funding is being made available for that. However, I 5.52 pm suspect that we are a long way off from either a cure or a detection method, and prevention of transmission is Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): Thank you the utmost priority. Indeed, it is the only thing that we for giving me the opportunity to have this debate, can do at the moment. Madam Deputy Speaker, which I have been chasing for With the removal of mad cow disease, transmission a wee while, as I suspect the Minister is aware. I apologise now is from individual to individual via blood. The to the Minister that she will be the last man standing Government have a blood safety advisory body called this evening—that is not a gender mistake but an old the Advisory Committee on Safety of Blood, Tissues saying. I must declare an interest: I am a very part-time and Organs, or SaBTO for short. In 1998, leucodepletion dentist, and this matter faintly touches on that. In fact, was introduced by the UK blood service as a first step dentists have been affected to some degree by the recent in reducing variant CJD infectivity. That process filters rules introduced by the chief dental officer. blood destined for blood transfusion and removes white I should like to do a little scene-setting, to which I blood cells. It was a very useful first step, but at best it expect the Minister to add. Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob only provided a 40 to 70 per cent. reduction in infectivity disease is rare at the moment, but it is an incurable, fatal of donated blood. human disease that is caused by protein particles called prions. It causes a spongy degeneration of the brain and In July 2009, SaBTO recommended that UK-sourced ultimately death. As I said, there is no cure. In contrast blood plasma should not be used for transfusion and to the traditional forms of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, should be replaced with plasma sourced from other vCJD seems today to have affected younger patients. countries with a much lower risk of variant CJD. However, Normally, older patients are affected. That at least in October the committee recommended the use of a appears to be the fact with the original causal link with recently developed prion filtration system. That has bovine spongiform encephalopathy in cattle. However, been produced by Macro-Pharma, a medical device that cause seems to have been eradicated, so transmission technology company. The filter is called a P-Capt filter now is predominantly from individual to individual, and has been designed specifically to work directly with through blood transfusions, organs or surgical equipment. the existing technologies used by the UK blood service. It is known that the transmission from human to human It has been CE marked since 2006, some four years through, for example, blood transfusion, is 100 times ago. This means that it has passed EU safety and more efficient than from species to species. efficacy testing, as required for it to be legally used in the United Kingdom. Carriers of vCJD frequently spend their whole lives as carriers without developing the disease or even knowing The filter has been under review by the predecessor that they are carrying it. Unfortunately, it is currently committee to SaBTO since 2004 and also by SaBTO not possible to detect carriers, many of whom are since its formation in January 2008. In October 2009, almost certainly present in the population of regular SaBTO recommended several changes. First, it accepted blood donors and patients who undergo different forms that there was a recognition that further measures to of surgery. Logically, that means that unless extensive protect the UK blood supply and prevent the spread of preventive measures are combined with detection, the variant CJD through blood transfusions should be population of carriers must increase, which potentially introduced. Secondly, it said that there was “now sufficient creates a devastating hidden time bomb of vCJD in the evidence” that the P-Capt prion reduction filter “reduces decades ahead. infectivity” and successfully cleans blood to remove the The estimate of the prevalence of individuals incubating infective prions that carry variant CJD. vCJD today varies from one in 4,000 to one in 20,000. Next and most significantly, the committee recommended That comes from the Hilton study, which is based on that the P-Capt filter should be introduced for filtering tests on tonsils and appendix samples. Perhaps it is the red cells that will be given as blood transfusions to more disturbing that the UK and Ireland almost certainly those born since 1 January 1996, with the rider that that have the largest per head of population reservoir of that should be subject to the completion of the PRISM—platelet prion in the world. That explains why UK citizens and receptor inhibition for ischemic syndrome management— even tourists who have visited the UK are not acceptable trials. The fourth recommendation was that the requirement as blood donors in many countries. It is thought that for prion filtration should be reviewed in the event that the incubation period of vCJD is decades. Indeed, if it further data on variant CJD prevalence or filter efficacy is like kuru, a similar disease found in Papua New became available. Although I recognise that the logistics Guinea, it could have an incubation period of up to and finance need to be fully assessed, to my mind this is 40 years from the time of exposure to onset of symptoms. an absolute must and requires considerable urgency. Regardless of the prevalence, it is almost certain that Personally, I see it as a first step towards filtering all this country will have a considerable number of cases in blood from all donors. There is absolutely no reason years to come. why these initial steps should not be implemented To make matters worse, because vCJD is so difficult immediately and the PRISM trial continued alongside. to detect, it is fairly certain that the Hilton study was Hand in hand with this approach, the Department of not 100 per cent. accurate or effective in detecting Health has introduced other measures in other areas, incubating cases. Having very briefly and in simplistic and I give it credit for doing so. terms set the scene, it is important now to turn to what The other logical means of transmitting the prion is the Government can and should be doing to combat surgery, especially with re-used stainless steel equipment, this potential disaster which will hit our children and even if it is sterilised. This concern arises from the fact 1077 Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease18 MARCH 2010 Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease 1078

[Sir Paul Beresford] sterilization regulations that dentists are now facing, before the regulations are finalised. That would be that the prion is extremely difficult to remove from better than landing it on a beleaguered dental practitioner stainless steel and can often survive standard autoclave after he has installed the equipment for major changes sterilisation. Even so, when I discussed this with Professor that are coming through. Pennington, who is an expert on the subject, in October In 2001, the Department of Health allocated £200 million 2007, he pointed out that there was no evidence at that to modernise NHS surgical decontamination, along time of iatrogenic transmission. That, I suspect, is down similar lines to that descending on dentists now. Attempts to the fact that it is extremely difficult to find the prion have been made to produce single-use instruments for and to get any evidence, certainly in the short term. some surgery, and I understand that plastic instruments were developed for tonsil surgery but proved a failure. 6pm New rules have also been brought in on contact lenses, Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). and it would be interesting to see whether those would Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House be applicable or useful. do now adjourn.—(Lyn Brown.) However, the way forward has to be blood transfusion filtering. Some 1.8 million blood units are donated in Sir Paul Beresford: I suspect that the reason for the the UK annually, and SaBTO has recommended the professor’s opinion is that it is extremely difficult to immediate P-Capt filtering of all blood for children. In detect the prion. However, there is a feeling—correctly—that the Prime Minister’s letter to me, on 11 February, the precautionary principle should be applied, although following my question on this subject, he said that the hopefully in a sensible manner. introduction of the filter should be subject to the satisfactory With that in mind, I draw the Minister’s attention to completion of a clinical trial. I assume that he was the decision in April 2007 by the chief dental officer referring to the ongoing—long ongoing—PRISM study. that dentists should not reuse endodontic reamers and I understand that the study is way behind schedule. files—by that, I mean single-patient use. This, I There are previous studies—I can draw the Minister’s understand—I may be corrected—was derived from attention to them, if they are not in her notes—and, as I research on mice that were particularly susceptible to have said, the filter has a CE mark. variant CJD. The basis of this thinking is that the I ask the Minister to move now on blood filtering, removal of the prion from stainless steel reamers is initially for children and then for all. If it is good difficult, as I think we all accept. Stainless steel reamers enough for the Department of Health to use the are cheap and so not a particular economic problem, precautionary principle for endodontic files after even for dentists claiming that their fees are not large questionable thought, the same principle should be enough. applied to blood transfusion filtering. Action on endodontic Nowadays, however, most endodontists, or those doing files is essentially fiddling around the edges. Blood serious amounts of endodontics, are using nickel titanium transfusion filtering is central to reducing or stopping reamers. A number of specific designs are used in blood transfusion transference of prions, to the benefit different techniques. Reputable nickel titanium reamers of future generations. I am sure Health Ministers would are expensive. I also understand that cleaning the prion not like to be named in what I will call an “If only we off nickel titanium is much easier than taking it off had” report in 20 to 40 years, when people are dying stainless steel. Treatment for a tooth that needs endodontic from variant CJD. treatment is therefore made very much more expensive. It is time-consuming if done properly, especially if 6.5 pm molar root canal is involved. The unit of dental activity award for molar root canal is small, especially when The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian compared with the alternative treatment, which is extraction Merron): I congratulate the hon. Member for Mole using—surprise, surprise—stainless steel forceps, where Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing this debate, and the same prion difficulty would apply. That might explain on his thoughtful and well-informed comments. I am the apparent increase in NHS extractions and reduction glad to have this opportunity to update the House on in NHS endodontics—I expect a letter from the British the latest developments. Dental Association telling me I am wrong. We can be thankful that the number of variant CJD A number of questions arise. Many stainless steel cases in this country has so far been relatively low. instruments and burs are used in dentistry, including Every case is serious, however, and devastating for the forceps. If the research on these susceptible mice was so individuals and families involved. I want to express my conclusive, one questions why the chief dental officer deepest sympathy for all those whose lives have been chose those reamers and whether he thought about affected by this traumatic and tragic illness. There remains extending his ban further. Of course, if he did, he would much to learn about the disease. We do not know how have to face the problem of probability versus application many people are potentially infected, and we do not of the ban versus cost. Should the ban apply only to know the maximum incubation period, or how the stainless steel reamers? Should it not be applied to disease progresses through the body. nickel titanium? In 2007 D-Gen and DuPont produced The House will recall that the consensus on the a new prion disinfectant called RelyOn prion inactivator origins of this terrible disease, which is fatal, is that to remove or de-activate the prion on instruments. I people unknowingly ate meat that was contaminated would be interested if the Minister could tell me—if not with bovine spongiform encephalopathy.The BSE controls tonight, certainly in a letter—whether that product has that were introduced from 1989 minimised the risks of been tested, because if so, it would be sensible to infection from cattle. Our focus now is on reducing the introduce its use into the new onerous disinfection and risk of person-to-person transmission, and on caring 1079 Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease18 MARCH 2010 Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease 1080 for those who are already infected. I can give the hon. The hon. Gentleman raised important issues relating Gentleman the assurance that the Government are currently to potential transmission of variant CJD transmission spending more than £7.5 million on variant CJD via blood. The safety of blood and blood products used surveillance and research every year. It is true, however, in the NHS is of the highest importance, and we take that with so many unknowns still surrounding the disease, every reasonable known precaution to cut the risk of we must remain both cautious and vigilant. We must transmission. In 1997, we recalled all blood and tissue follow the evidence, and we must also ensure that any donated by people who later developed variant CJD. In new measures that we introduce are safe and proportionate. 1998, we arranged for plasma to be procured from These principles underpin everything that we have done non-UK sources. In 1999, we introduced leucodepletion on variant CJD. for all donations, ensuring that white blood cells are The hon. Gentleman made a number of important removed from donated blood. There have been no reported comments about dentistry and about variant CJD. I transmissions from blood treated in that way. appreciate that he speaks from a position of rather In 2002, we announced that fresh frozen plasma for more personal and professional expertise than I do on treating infants and young children would be obtained this matter. There are no known cases of variant CJD from the United States and purchased a US-based being transmitted through dentistry, but, as the spongiform plasma collection company. In 2004, we announced encephalopathy advisory committee has noted, studies that people who had received whole blood transfusions using BSE in mice suggest that there is a potential risk since 1980 would no longer be allowed to donate blood, of infection from oral tissue, as the hon. Gentleman and we introduced new measures to protect patients suggested. The risk is difficult to quantify, but, given the who had received some plasma products. In 2005, we seriousness of the disease, it is only right that we take extended the use of American-sourced plasma to all precautions, especially when those precautions bring children up to the age of 16, and started a notification wider, additional benefits. scheme to track people who had donated blood to three As the health technical memorandum and the British individuals who later developed variant CJD. We have Dental Association’s recent advice sheet on infection also made synthetic clotting agents available for control make clear, the risks posed by variant CJD and haemophiliacs. I hope that that record demonstrates the other infections demand the most rigorous measures to Government’s commitment to ensuring that at all stages— prevent cross-infection. That is why we have issued from procurement and donation to supply and guidance that encourages the use of automated washer distribution—we have taken every possible action to disinfectors, which remove the worst contamination minimise the risk of variant CJD transmission. from dental instruments and ensure greater consistency The hon. Gentleman asked about the Government’s and containment in cleaning. Although the guidance is position on prion filtration. The independent Advisory part of our precautionary approach to variant CJD, it Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs serves a dual purpose by improving overall standards of recently expressed the view that there is now sufficient dental decontamination. evidence that a particular filter can reduce potential infectivity in a unit of red blood cells, and has recommended It is important to recognise that the guidance is the the introduction of filtered blood to treat those born result of consultation with the dental profession, and since 1 January 1996. Subject to satisfactory completion that the British Dental Association was fully involved in of a clinical trial to assess safety, the Government are its development. It is also important to note that that is undertaking an evaluation of the costs, benefits and just one of the actions that we have taken to manage impacts in order to inform a decision on whether to risks in dentistry. In April 2007, the chief dental officer implement the recommendation. The rationale for the wrote to all dentists advising them that certain instruments introduction of filtered blood to treat those born before that are difficult to clean should be made single-use. As 1 January 1996 is that members of that age group will I mentioned earlier, when it comes to managing risk in not have been exposed to BSE by their diet. dentistry, we must always follow the evidence. We are conducting additional clinical safety trials because, as I have said, we want to ensure—as the Sir Paul Beresford: At almost the moment when that House would expect us to—that issues of quality and instruction was conveyed to all dentists, the British safety are fully assessed before consideration is given to Dental Journal—the journal of the British Dental whether effective prion filtration technologies should be Association—published a report which pointed out that introduced. The clinical studies that have been undertaken forceps posed just as big a danger as files. That is so far involve the transfusion of filtered blood into extraordinary. I should be grateful if the Minister would healthy volunteers. Because those studies do not provide look at some of the comments that I have made about enough assurance about the safety of transfusing filtered it, and then write to me. blood into patients with medical conditions, studies of cardiac surgery and transfusion-dependent patients have Gillian Merron: I shall be happy to look at all the been commissioned. I hope that the ongoing trials will comments that the hon. Gentleman has made this evening. be completed by the end of the year. The impact assessment I hope that my response will satisfy him, but I shall give will inform Ministers, who will be interested to look at further consideration to any issues that require it. the evidence. It is because of the importance of following evidence— The hon. Gentleman, a number of other Members this may be relevant to what the hon. Gentleman has and also campaign groups have raised the issue of the just said—that we keep all precautionary measures under calling for routine vCJD testing of blood donors and/or review, and have commissioned further research on the donated blood. Although some blood tests are in effectiveness of automated washer disinfectors and the development, none of them are currently suitable for disinfectant agents used in them. We expect the performance use. However, if there were an effective and accurate of AWDs to improve significantly in the coming years. test, we would, of course, consider it. 1081 Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease18 MARCH 2010 Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease 1082

[Gillian Merron] based on evidence. We continue to invest in research that is focused on improvements in decontamination, On care for vCJD sufferers, although there is no testing and treatment. We have taken progressive action known treatment, the Department of Health has set up to reduce the risk from vCJD in the procurement, services and a care package fund to help patients and supply and delivery of blood products. We have developed their families. The care fund is administered by the guidance on surgical and dental instruments, which national CJD surveillance unit, and it is used to support ensures that cleaning is of the highest technical standard, patients in the community and to pay for those elements and which is to be continually audited. We are closely of their care that cannot be readily supplied by local monitoring new clinical developments, whether on filtration health and social services, such as housing adaptation, or a blood test for vCJD. We also, of course, intend to additional nursing care, and access to an adapted motor keep all precautionary measures under review as and vehicle. The fund is available for people with all types when new evidence emerges. of CJD in any part of the UK, and it is not subject to cash limits. I hope my remarks serve to reassure the hon. Gentleman that this is an open book and that our work is continuing. I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate on such an important issue. I hope he will be reassured Question put and agreed to. that we continue to do everything we can to reduce the risk of transmission of vCJD between people and are 6.17 pm pursuing a policy that is grounded in practicality and House adjourned. 323WH 18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 324WH

Agency. That made the Government one of the first in Westminster Hall the world to attempt to address patient safety systematically across an entire health care system. Thursday 18 March 2010 Despite nearly a decade of emphasis on patient safety as a policy priority, major lapses in safety have continued to come to light in recent years. At Stoke Mandeville [BOB RUSSELL in the Chair] hospital, and at Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust, there were stark failures in preventing and controlling Patient Safety health care associated infections, with, sadly, some disastrous [Relevant documents: Sixth Report from the Health consequences. At Mid Staffordshire Foundation Trust, Committee, Session 2008-09, HC 151, and Government wholly inadequate accident and emergency care led to Response, Cm 7709.] unnecessary deaths and suffering, while at Basildon and Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Thurrock University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, be now adjourned.—[Mr. Watts.] poor hygiene and unacceptably high death rates also came to light. Against that background, we must ask 2.30 pm how far the Government’s policy has succeeded in reducing harm to patients and what more needs to be done, and Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): Thank you, we decided to conduct our inquiry on that basis. Mr. Russell, and may I say how pleasant it is to serve under your chairmanship for the first time? Just before We found that although reporting is useful for learning close of play in terms of the parliamentary timetable, I from incidents, it is not a reliable way of measuring the am pleased that we have the opportunity to discuss our extent of harm. Judging the overall effectiveness of patient safety report and the Government’s response. I patient safety policy is made difficult because of the intend to give a broad-brush speech explaining why we failure by the Department of Health to collect adequate took up the report, some of the evidence that we took data. Despite all the policy innovations of the last and some of the recommendations in the Government’s decade, it is apparent that there has been insufficient response. progress in making services safer. Indeed, underlying Lord Darzi’s emphasis on quality and safety in the next “Do no harm” is a fundamental principle of medical stage review of 2008 was a tacit admission by the practice that goes back many thousands of years, but Government that not all services are safe enough yet. there has always been scope for patients to be harmed accidentally. That is an issue in all areas of clinical Patient safety is a multifaceted issue that touches on practice and all types of health care systems around the many aspects of the NHS, and we examined in some world, however they are funded or organised. Reviews detail those we regarded as the most important. We of patients’ case notes indicate that in health care concluded that there were significant deficiencies in systems across the developed world, about 10 per cent. current policy, and we recommended several changes of people admitted to hospital suffer some form of that were needed to bring about further progress in harm, much of it avoidable. Indeed, the report states tackling unsafe care. To monitor whether services are that 50 per cent. of harm created in our health care being made safer, data on the incidence of harm must system is avoidable. be systematically collected. The best available means of doing that is to review samples of patients’ case notes at The national health service in England treats huge periodic intervals in order to calculate a rate of harm. numbers of people—1 million every 36 hours—and the We concluded that such a review should be undertaken vast majority receive safe and effective care. Over the by all hospitals, and that data produced in that way years, however, notorious cases have illustrated how should be gathered together by the NPSA. badly things can go wrong. In the 1990s, patient safety became an important issue in the NHS following In their response, the Government told us that the the inquiry into the Bristol Royal Infirmary, where high cost of large-scale record reviews, and the need for unsafe heart surgery on young babies had had fatal extensive involvement in them of people with clinical consequences. In 2000, an expert group convened by expertise, meant that they could not be conducted frequently. the chief medical officer published “An organisation However, they did agree that small-scale, local case note with a memory”. That document acknowledged that in reviews were vital in helping NHS organisations to most cases when patients are unintentionally harmed, measure their performance. the harm is not down to negligence or serious incompetence on the part of individuals, but to unsafe When patient safety incidents occur, harmed patients systems and ways of working. and their families or carers are entitled to receive information, an explanation, an apology and an The expert group recommended that patient safety in undertaking that the harm will not be repeated. We the NHS be improved by the creation of a national found that too often that does not happen and we felt patient safety incident reporting system, so that lessons that recent changes to the NHS complaints system were could be learned and repeat incidents avoided. The unlikely to improve how the service treats complainants. group recognised that the system needed to be underpinned Patient advice and liaison services should be provided by a culture of openness and “fair blame”, allowing independently of the NHS organisations to which they people to report incidents without fear of being unfairly relate, and not by in-house staff, as happens at present. made to shoulder all the responsibilities when systems The independent review stage of the complaints process, were at fault. which the Government abolished nearly a year ago, The Government accepted the expert group’s should be reinstated—the Committee has said that before. recommendations and created the national reporting However, once again, the Government failed to agree and learning system and the National Patient Safety with those recommendations. 325WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 326WH

[Mr. Kevin Barron] However, safety improvements can be fully integrated into front-line services by engaging and involving clinicians Harmed patients are currently forced to endure often and other health care workers. That has been shown in lengthy and distressing litigation to obtain justice and schemes such as the safer patients initiative and the compensation. There will not be many hon. Members productive ward programme, which have been successfully of the House whose case work does not suggest that; I adopted at a number of hospitals. We made visits to a have a case in my constituency that has lasted for more number of hospitals to look at that issue. We were than a decade, and it has still not been resolved. At the particularly impressed when we visited Luton and Dunstable same time, NHS organisations are obliged to spend hospital, which is an exemplar of good practice on considerable sums on legal costs, and are encouraged to patient safety in the NHS. We heard that central venous be defensive when harm occurs. Four years ago, Parliament line infections, which clinical staff had previously regarded passed legislation to enable the Department of Health as a normal risk of that type of treatment, were now to introduce the NHS redress scheme, removing the very rare and seen as exceptional occurrences. need for litigation in many cases. However, the Department We were particularly struck by the fact that the NHS has not implemented the scheme, and seems not to have lags unacceptably behind other safety-critical industries a timetable for doing so. in recognising the importance of effective teamworking In responding to our report, the Government insisted and other non-technical skills. Health care clearly has that their reforms of the NHS complaints system had much to learn from other industries such as aviation in made the NHS redress scheme unnecessary. However, I that regard. We took evidence from a person who has say to my hon. Friend the Minister that that prompts worked as an adviser to the aviation industry. When the question as to why the Government bothered to things go wrong in that industry, they are reported and take up Parliament’s time putting through legislation lessons are learned immediately. Although we cannot that now seems to be unnecessary. do a complete read-over on that, the NHS and its health The NRLS is collecting significant amounts of data professionals could do far worse than accepting that that are being used to help make services safer, but when things go wrong, we should learn the lessons, and significant underreporting remains, particularly for incidents we do not learn the lessons if they are not brought to in primary care, medication incidents, serious incidents the fore. and reporting by doctors. We found that a major reason We found that inadequate staffing on the front line for underreporting is the persistent failure to eliminate had been a major factor in undermining patient safety the blame culture. Another important factor is fear of in a number of notorious cases. Given the recent huge litigation or prosecution, which underlines the need for increases in funding and staffing overall in the NHS, it the Government to address the medico-legal aspects of seems inexcusable that some services have ended up patient safety. We particularly recommended the being run with too few doctors or nurses, to the extent decriminalisation of dispensing errors on the part of that safety has been compromised and patients harmed. pharmacists. The apparently now redundant NHS redress scheme also seems relevant to that issue. A number of years ago, the Committee produced a report on NHS work force planning, and found that The one-size-fits-all nature of reporting systems seems when there were overshoots, in terms of taking people to be a significant cause of underreporting, for example on, or when there were major increases in the NHS by GPs. We thought that as much as possible of the work force, that was not necessarily related to service data collected by the NRLS should be published, and improvement. Targets for more doctors and nurses were we welcome the decision to start publishing reported set centrally, and I am very pleased that the Government data broken down by individual NHS organisations. We provided exactly that, but we need to look at where that had some criticisms of the policy on data collection; we takes place. thought there had been too much emphasis on gathering summary data on common or less serious incidents. We heard that several technologies could make significant The NRLS should be gathering more in-depth improvements to care, but were being implemented far information on serious and sentinel events—those needing too slowly. Examples include automated decision support an immediate investigation and response, as they involve systems, including electronic prescribing support systems— death or serious injury, or the risk thereof. We thought that seems a pretty obvious one to us—and automatic that that particularly applied to the less common types. identification and data capture technology, such as Also, there must be much wider and better use of barcoding. We have heard in different parts of not just root-cause analysis, which is an investigative method this country but the world about exactly how barcoding designed to identify the underlying causes of an incident, can ensure that people do not suffer any harm. The with a view to preventing its repetition. Although the most classic example that we saw was at Charing Cross patient safety observatory, which is a part of the NPSA, hospital. It had a system whereby patients were barcoded, was already collating data from a variety of sources so that when people went to the patient’s bed and other than incident reports, we thought that doing so scanned the barcode, information immediately came up should become a key priority for the NPSA. on what medication the patient needed at that time of We found that, too often, although patient safety the day, and on the right quantity as well. solutions were well known, there was a failure to adopt It is extraordinary that medication error causes a lot them where they were needed—on the front line of the of harm in the acute sector of the NHS. When people NHS. Solutions are handed down from on high as take a prescription home from the pharmacist, they diktats—if they are passed on at all—without clinicians might misuse the medication, but medication being being convinced of their effectiveness. We had a number misused in the acute hospital sector is not acceptable. In of clear examples of that. Moreover, a culture persists the case of Charing Cross, two individuals watch each in which various types of easily avoidable harm are seen other as they put the medication in the right quantity as inevitable risks of treatment. into the—I was going to say “contraption”, but that is 327WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 328WH not the word. They put the medication into a dispenser, whether all PCTs are doing so. We welcomed the principle which they take on to the ward. It was shown that that of linking payment by PCTs to the quality of care, but system, which was an attempt to avoid medication error recommended that that be piloted first. We supported in that hospital, had reduced and further reduced human the use of never events by PCTs, but had doubts about error. Another example is the electronic patient record. whether they should involve a financial penalty. We You will know, Mr. Russell, that we have commented on recommended that that be piloted, too. We shall pass that before in our reports. further comment on that in the next few days, with the We were alarmed at the lengthy delay in developing publication of a report on an inquiry that we have spinal needles that cannot be connected to a Luer undertaken in relation to commissioning. syringe, which is a simple technical solution to a known We found that the performance management role of and potentially lethal problem. It is unacceptable that strategic health authorities appeared to be a bit ill the NHS does not have a mechanism to ensure that defined and to vary between SHAs. We recommended such changes, which impact seriously on patient safety, that the Department of Health produce a formal definition occur in a timely fashion. It is not the first time that the of that role. In their response, the Government said that Health Committee has considered that particular issue the new SHA assurance framework would clarify the and made recommendations on it. Since we published SHAs’ role. We welcome that. our report, significant progress has been made on non-Luer We found that the regulation of health care has been spinal connectors. In November, the NPSA issued a too rule-based, looking at processes and procedures patient safety alert, which I am told should mean that rather than outcomes and consequences or professional the new connectors are in commercial production soon competence. Consequently, the annual health check did and in use across the NHS by next year. We will all be not pick up major failings in some cases. We believe that very pleased that that is happening, but it makes us the Care Quality Commission’s registration system, which wonder how long we have to keep making the call is to be introduced this year, should focus on the outcomes before someone takes action to try to avoid the situations being achieved by NHS organisations rather than on that we have found. formal governance processes. We found serious deficiencies in the undergraduate There remains concern about the role of self-assessment medical curriculum, “Tomorrow’s Doctors”, which were in regulation. That was undoubtedly a weakness in the detrimental to patient safety, in respect of training in annual health check. Indeed, that was confirmed this clinical pharmacology and therapeutics, diagnostic skills, week by the widespread lapses in hygiene standards that non-technical skills and root-cause analysis. We said the Care Quality Commission uncovered when inspecting that those issues should be addressed in the next edition 167 trusts on that aspect of care as part of the transition of “Tomorrow’s Doctors”, and we understand that that to the new registration system. is in hand and will happen. We felt strongly that the relationships between bodies We concluded that patient safety must be fully and responsible for commissioning, performance management explicitly integrated into the education and training and regulating NHS service providers were not sufficiently curriculums of all health care workers. In addition, defined. Baroness Young,then chair of the Care Quality there should be much more interdisciplinary training; Commission, told us that there were those who work together should train together. That is “a lot of players on the pitch”. important. I have knowledge of medical training from the time when I was a lay member of the General We thought that the rules of the game were none too Medical Council, and what is rightly being said to clear. In particular, there was a lack of clarity about the trainee doctors and others is that we cannot avoid all role of Monitor, the foundation trust regulator. It is aspects of harm to patients. However, because we cannot rather like a moving picture, and I know that the avoid all harm, I wonder whether it is being said that Minister will want to bring us up to date. some of it is inevitable, and that nothing can be done We told the Department of Health that it should about it. We believe that through the consideration of produce a succinct statement on how commissioning, systems, something can be done about it. performance management and regulation are defined, Each time that a major patient safety scandal has and how they, and the organisations responsible for come to light, the Government have assured us that it is them, relate to each other. The Department said in its a unique case and that no other NHS bodies are in the response that that would be included in the next NHS same situation—and then, normally, within about three operating framework. to six months, we get an example that seems to disprove The report on the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation that. Such cases are extremely rare, but we thought that Trust by Robert Francis QC was published last month. there were too many gaps in the current arrangements It seems to vindicate our concerns. Mr. Francis for commissioning, performance management and recommended that the Department regulation to be able to say with certainty that there are “should consider instigating an independent examination of the not further, as yet undiscovered, cases. That is probably operation of commissioning, supervisory and regulatory bodies a good maxim for everyone to use in the health care in relation to their monitoring role at Stafford with the objective system. The case of Basildon and Thurrock University of learning the lessons about how failing hospitals are identified.” Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, which I have mentioned, I am pleased to say that the Department accepted that and which emerged after we published our report, seems recommendation. Mr. Francis has agreed to chair the to prove the point. People said, “Well, things are okay new inquiry. now,” but clearly they were not. We took evidence not only about Mid Staffordshire A key role for primary care trusts in commissioning but about management and governance in other places. services is to ensure the quality and safety of those We found disturbing evidence of catastrophic failure on services. However, we have had grave doubts about the part of some senior managers and boards, including 329WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 330WH

[Mr. Kevin Barron] We said in our report that the NHS remains largely unsupportive of whistleblowing, with many staff fearful at Mid Staffordshire. Although other boards are not of the consequences of going outside official channels failing as comprehensively, there is substantial room for to bring unsafe care to light. We recommended that the improvement. Boards too often believe that they are Department should bring forward proposals on how to discharging their responsibilities in respect of patient improve the situation. Here too, we had Mid Staffordshire safety by addressing governance and regulatory processes, very much in mind. but we believe that they should be promoting tangible The previous Secretary of State told the House last improvements in services. year that it was a mystery why no one had blown the We believe that there is a case for providing specialist whistle at Mid Staffordshire, given the existence of legal training in patient safety issues, particularly to non-executive protection for whistleblowers. However, our evidence directors, in order to help them scrutinise their executive led us to conclude: colleagues and hold them to account. Patient safety “Many healthcare workers remain fearful…that if they whistleblow must be the top priority for boards; to show that that is they will be victimised.” the case, it should without exception be the first item on Indeed, that conclusion was made also by the Francis every agenda of every board. It is remarkable that that report. was not the case when we investigated the situation. It is difficult to comprehend why that should be so, in view We recommended that the Department should of the harm that is done to patients. “bring forward proposals on how to improve this situation and We recommended to NHS organisations the that it give consideration to the model operated in New Zealand, where whistleblowers can complain to an independent statutory measures that were piloted as part of the safer patients body.” initiative. They included implementing tried and tested changes in clinical practice in order to ensure safe care; The Government, I am pleased to say, accepted that banishing the blame culture; providing the leadership recommendation. It is no good our passing laws in our to harness the enthusiasm of staff to improve safety; legislative Chamber to protect whistleblowers if they and changing the way in which they identify risks and are still fearful. The Francis report again vindicated our measure performance, using information about actual conclusions, finding that the Mid Staffordshire Trust harm done to patients, such as data from sample case had not offered the support and respect due to those note reviews. brave enough to become whistleblowers. In response, the Secretary of State announced that a group had been I remember very well our visit to Luton and Dunstable established to advise him on updating NHS whistleblowing hospital. I was interested to note that when something guidance. had gone wrong no one thought to consider what had happened in order to find out what lessons could be We thought that the Government should be praised learned. They undertook systematic reviews of patient for being the first in the world to adopt a policy that case notes to ensure that patients going through their makes patient safety a priority. However, Government hospital were getting the best and safest care. It is not policy has too often given the impression that other only about investigating something when it goes wrong priorities—notably hitting targets for waiting lists and but about considering the system as a whole, including accident and emergency waiting times, achieving financial the management of patients, to ensure that nothing balance and attaining foundation trust status—are more more can be done to lessen potential harm. important than patient safety. Everyone will say that that is the impression being given, but it is not so. We strongly endorsed the Department’s view that Reading such stories in the media over the past few NHS boards should not always meet behind closed years, that often seems to have been the case for the doors. We urged the Government defence. I hope that that is not so. No case can be made “to legislate as necessary to ensure that Foundation Trust Boards for the neglect of patients, whether in the acute sector meet regularly in public”. or even the primary sector. I hope that the Government The Government said in their response that they were are conscious of the fact that there are some basic “considering what legislative or other changes may be necessary principles when it comes to ensuring that we look after or desirable in the light of recent events in Mid-Staffordshire”. our patients as safely as we can. Since then, the Francis report has concluded that the All Government policy in respect of the NHS must board at Mid Staffordshire discussed “far too much” be predicated on the principle that the first priority, business in private, giving the impression always and without exception, is to ensure that patients do not suffer avoidable harm. The key tasks of the “that only good news is discussed in public while the bad is hidden behind a curtain of secrecy.” Government, we said, were to ensure that the NHS The Secretary of State responded by telling the House “develops a culture of openness and ‘fair blame’”— that there is a “strong presumption” that foundation we all make mistakes; indeed, incidents from this House trust board meetings reported in the media over the past 18 months show “should be held in public and that governors should have access that many here make mistakes from time to time— to all papers”.—[Official Report, 24 February 2010; Vol. 506, “strengthens, clarifies and promulgates its whistleblowing policy”— c. 312.] I am pleased that that will happen— However, he did not mention any plans for new legislation, “and provides leadership which listens to and acts upon staff instead invoking the spirit of the existing law on foundation suggestions for service changes to improve efficiency and quality trust status. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s and, by the provision of examples and incentives, encourages and comments on that, and if we are not to have new enables staff to implement practical and proven improvements in legislation, how that change can be implemented. patient safety.” 331WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 332WH

In addition, we argued that the Government should Recommendations 9 to 11 talk about the NHS examine the contribution that deficiencies in regulation complaints process, which the Chairman also mentioned. make to failures in patient safety. I am pleased to note The loss of the independent review of a complaint that the Government again seem to be acting on some before it goes to the ombudsman is, as far as I am of the issues raised in the Francis report. concerned, pretty much a disaster. If I am lucky enough Finally, there is no health care system in the world to be back here in the next Parliament and back on this that can be said to have completely solved the issue of Committee, one of the things that I will be pushing for patient safety. We can be proud of the fact that over the is an inquiry into the NHS complaints process, because past decade, the NHS has been a pioneer in developing it needs yet another review. Recommendation 24 emphasises policies and systems to address patient safety. However, the importance of training in non-technical skills, such many things still need to be put right before the whole as teamwork, communication and leadership, all of NHS—not just its best parts—is ensuring that patients which are vital and should be taught. are not avoidably harmed. I hope that our report can be There are three areas that I want to cover at greater said to have made a contribution to bringing that length: the electronic patient record in recommendation 32; about. human factors and error, which are covered by Bob Russell (in the Chair): I thank the Chair of the recommendations 34 and 35; and, inevitably, Staffordshire Select Committee for introducing the debate. The House and whistleblowing, which the Chair of the Select has allocated us three hours—or until 5.30—in which to Committee also mentioned. discuss the report. There is no requirement for us to fill In recommendation 32, we deplored the delays in the those three hours. There is sufficient time for everybody electronic patient record and welcomed, of course, the to have their say. Let me inform Members that we have marvellous success of the picture archiving and two doctors, two nurses, a pharmacist and a research communication systems. We particularly deplored the immunologist among us, so we can safely say that the delays in the summary care record, although the expertise and experience of the outside world is brought Government response said that into this Chamber. “good progress is now being made in delivering the Summary Care Record.” 3pm The Committee heard about varying numbers of general Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): It is a pleasure practices that have the summary care records up and to serve under your encouraging and benign chairmanship, working. We asked for details of those practices to see Mr. Russell, and to follow the Chair of our Health whether any were in our home areas, so that we could Committee. I am pleased, too, that five of the really visit them to see how they were getting on. active members of our Committee are present in the Chamber. I have been very surprised by the complaints that I am accused at home of doing this job as a hobby. If have come out recently, from the British Medical someone’s hobby is something that really interests them Association in particular, about confidentiality, because and it is their job as well, it is marvellous. One of my it is a matter that should have been sorted out ages ago. hobbies for years and years has been to try to improve In France—I will not attempt to use a French accent the national health service for the patient, and that is here—the patient owns their summary care record and exactly what this report is about. I shall speak very can therefore censor whatever is on it. If a person writes briefly about a few of the recommendations and then their own summary care record with their GP, they will concentrate on three of them. I will try not to overlap only put on the things that are essential for safety in the too much with our Chair. The first recommendation middle of the night, and I see nothing wrong with that. draws attention to the use of the words “safety” and We also saw the ideal summary care record in Canada. “quality” in the Darzi review, and the second to the Called the patient lifetime record, it was designed by safer patients initiative, to which our Chairman referred Infoway on a single computer screen. I have said many and which we went to see in Luton and Dunstable. The times that the Department of Health is making the Government welcomed both recommendations. summary care record too complex. Recommendations 5 and 41 reminded the Department On our visit to the US, concerns were expressed of the value of random case note review. When I was a about the idea of trying to introduce a huge computer practising physician some years ago, we used to dread system with a big bang approach. Clinicians need to be the visits of the royal colleges to examine our wards and involved in the design, and patients must be made to our care because they would look in the note trolley and understand the huge advantages of having a summary pick out any note, so we had to have all the notes care record, especially if they are taken unconscious written up without any gaps. The Committee wanted to into an accident and emergency department in the emphasise the importance of such a review and, as part middle of the night. of the safer patients initiative, Luton and Dunstable Moving on to recommendations 34 and 35, which had taken it on board. cover human factors, it is quite obvious that patient Recommendation 41 said: safety should be in postgraduate training. Our Chairman “We recommend the DH consider how to reinstate the best went back several thousand years to “First, do no aspects of the Royal Colleges’ inspections in the new system.” harm” or “primum non nocere”, and I can go back to The Government’s response stated: 500 BC to Aeschylus, who had a very reassuring quote: “The Government agrees that the new system of registration “Even he who is wiser than the wise may err.” could usefully take account of previous experience in related fields, including the Royal Colleges’ inspection of hospital training That gives us all some encouragement. In 1690, in an posts. We will draw this recommendation to the attention of the essay concerning human understanding, John Locke CQC.” said: That was excellent. “All men are liable to error” 333WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 334WH

[Dr. Richard Taylor] In the third case, there was a failure to recognise that a patient who could not stand up because his blood and very worryingly, he added: pressure fell every time he did so was actually having a “and men may be as positive in error as in truth.” gastrointestinal haemorrhage, which proved fatal. The failure to spot it was the result of total diagnostic Even now, we can see people trying to defend the incompetence, but so far it has been defended through a indefensible. I shall come to that a bit later. Let me refer whitewash, and I am fighting for an external inquiry. Members to a post note, written in June 2001, called “Managing Human Error”. The overview is so good The last case, which is very current and very sad, that I will have to read it. involves a girl of 15 with glandular fever who also had a “Human error is inevitable. Reducing accidents and minimising fatal septicaemia that killed her. Nobody had sufficient the consequences of accidents that do occur is best achieved by experience to recognise that people do not die of glandular learning from errors, rather than by attributing blame. Feeding fever and that something else must have been going on. information from accidents, errors and near misses into design The attending doctors had inadequate experience, and solutions and management systems can drastically reduce the nobody with experience intervened. chances of future accidents. Hence, studying human error can be a very powerful tool for preventing disaster.” That gives me a chance to mention a booklet called “Front Line Care”, which is dear to the Minister. Its That is a very good summary. first recommendation is: Let me broaden the debate and talk about medical “Nurses and midwives must renew their pledge to society and errors because they are a bugbear to patient safety. I service users to tackle unacceptable variations in standards and shall mention just four complaints that have come across deliver high quality, compassionate care.” my desk relatively recently. First, let me say that I am It was a nurse who said that the girl who was dying not perfect; I have admitted in this Chamber to a could go home. Where are the good, old-fashioned desperate mistake that I made as a junior houseman, matrons and ward sisters, who sail round in proper and there were certainly other errors. However, I take uniforms, know when people are ill and actually tell the encouragement from Aeschylus, who said that even the doctors when they are missing something? “wisest of the wise may err.” Two of the cases that I mentioned in fact involved The four complaints that I want to draw attention to rare diagnoses, and I am not saying that everybody provide absolute lessons. The Minister will remember should be able to make a rare diagnosis. However, from her nurse’s training that a patient losing their false people must be able to spot whether somebody is ill. In teeth or glasses in hospital is an absolute disaster, a very good article in The Times on 15 March, Liam because such things can never be found or replaced. In Donaldson drew attention to the poor awareness of the first of my four cases, an elderly patient with mild rare diseases. Again, we are not all expected to make the dementia lost his false teeth. Despite his complaining of best diagnosis in the world, although it is very exciting difficulty swallowing, it took three weeks and a request when we do, but doctors and nurses must have the basic for an endoscopy for staff to discover that the false ability to know when somebody is ill, and then jump up teeth were stuck within sight at the back of his throat. and down until something is done about it. Nobody had done a proper examination or even looked Recommendations 44 and onwards are about down his throat, which is appalling. Staffordshire and the inability of so many people there In another case, nobody recognised that a small boy to spot what was going on. There has been a valuable was ill, purely because nobody had taken a proper spin-off from the Stafford disaster, in that great interest history or done a proper physical examination. The is now focused on patient safety. There are now open defence—the case went to the Care Quality Commission, board meetings, board members are involved with safety and we got a whitewash report—was that doctors do and there is an awareness of the importance of not examine the chest now. The hon. Member for whistleblowers and their problems. On 12 March, an Dartford (Dr. Stoate) will remember that we were taught article in The Times said: that physical examination consists of inspection, palpation, “The Toyota Way is famous…In reality, the Toyota Way is to percussion and auscultation. ignore warnings from within the firm”. It was clear from the report that workers at Toyota had Dr. Howard Stoate (Dartford) (Lab): When I was a pointed out the deficiencies in quality control as long medical student, the registrar who taught us about the ago as 2006, but their whistleblowing had been completely rectal examination—the per rectum—always said that, ignored. “If you don’t put your finger in it, you’ll certainly put Two things led me to use my opportunity to introduce your foot in it,” and I have never forgotten that. a private Member’s Bill to support whistleblowers. I wanted to call my Bill the “NHS Whistleblowers Support Bob Russell (in the Chair): Dr. Taylor—this is getting Bill”, but I was not allowed to, because the word interesting. “whistleblower”is apparently non-parliamentary language. Instead, my Bill was called the National Health Service Dr. Taylor: I remember that one entirely; we were all Public Interest Disclosure Support Bill, which is a mouthful. told that. There were two reasons why I pushed for the Bill. The Inspection, palpation, percussion and auscultation first was obviously Stafford. As our Chair said, there are absolutely crucial, but nobody had listened to this were whistleblowers there, but their whistleblowing was kid’s chest or tapped it, which is what Auenbrugg, the blocked before it got to board level, and they did not inventor of percussion, did on beer barrels. I am afraid know what to do. The first thing, therefore, is to give that poor little kid died after several apparent examinations them a system that allows them to go higher when they by the NHS. get blocked. My second reason for pushing for the Bill 335WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 336WH was that whistleblowers have come to me at home about unpleasant and some are fatal, and half of them at least the out-of-hours care service. They were frightened for are avoidable. The issue is clearly of great importance to their jobs, so they could not go through the normal all Members of the House and of even greater importance channels. They came to me because they trusted me to to the people who have suffered such problems. keep their anonymity and to have the clout to do something, which I certainly did. It is worth asking why the rate of patient safety incidents in the national health service is so high. The The aims of my Bill were to publicise the Public short answer must be that patient safety is not given the Interest Disclosure Act 1998 and the work of Public priority it deserves. I remember having only one lecture Concern at Work, as well as to introduce support officers on the subject as a medical student, from the dean of who would act as accessible and independent listeners, the medical school. I had just arrived there—brand advisers and supporters. That is why I was pleased by new; I think it was my first or second week and we had the Committee’s recommendation 56 and the Government’s an introductory course by the dean, who said, “I’d just response. Our recommendation said: like to tell everyone in this room you’re all going to kill “We recommend that Annex 1 of the Health Service somebody sooner or later, so you might as well get used Circular…“The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998—Whistleblowing to it.” He made us all extremely concerned and most of in the NHS” be re-circulated to all Trusts for dissemination to all their staff as a matter of urgency.” us never forgot that lecture. He may have been harsh, but it stood us in good stead, and we realised that The Government responded by saying: medicine is a dangerous as well as a healing art. The “We accept that proposals should be brought forward as dean woke us up and stopped us short, but did not go recommended to improve protection for whistleblowers. We will much further about how to avoid such things. He just consider the practicalities of establishing a model whereby whistleblowers can complain to an independent statutory body.” left it at that. Nevertheless it was a useful lesson. They are on exactly the same wavelength as my private In addition to being a practising GP I chair the Member’s Bill, so perhaps it does not matter that it was all-party parliamentary group on patient safety, so it is filibustered out of existence a few days ago. particularly pleasing for me to take part in the debate. Nurses have started really to push for quality. A little Much of the problem, as Suzette Woodward of Patient time ago, they produced a marvellous document called Safety First explained to the all-party group last year, is “Dignity in Care”, and I have already referred to the that trusts face a huge range of competing responsibilities, little booklet called “Front Line Care”. The Royal and find it hard to give patient safety the attention it College of Physicians is also at work and has produced deserves. I have discovered that patient safety does not a booklet called “Leading for Quality”, which says: even feature among the seven principal assessment domains drawn up by the Care Quality Commission. It is relegated “At the heart of quality rests safety. Many clinical errors could be avoided if the right information was shared at the right time.” to the status of a sub-category of quality, whereas financial management has a category all of its own. However, errors and safety are not yet recognised widely Consequently, many trust chief executives spend a vast enough. I dropped into the Library a few minutes ago amount of time thinking about finance, and little time and looked at the latest medical dictionary—the 41st thinking about patient safety—unless, of course, they edition of “Black’s Medical Dictionary”, which appeared are forced to react to a problem that has occurred in in 2005. Look up “safety”, and the only thing that it their trust. mentions is the safety of drugs. Look up “error” and the entries go straight from “eroticism” to “eructation”. Research by Patient Safety First, for example, found It does not even recognise that there could be errors. that 26 per cent. of trusts did not do leadership walkabout checks in hospitals, and that only 18 per cent. of trust I leave the House with my four Cs for quality, and boards had patient safety as the first item on their hence safety: care, compassion, communication and agenda. This week I had a meeting with Mark Devlin, continuity. the chief executive of the acute trust in my constituency, Dartford and Gravesham NHS trust, and put that point 3.19 pm to him. I breathed a huge sigh of relief when he produced Dr. Howard Stoate (Dartford) (Lab): I want to start two board agendas and I noted that patient safety was by echoing your sentiments, Mr. Russell, about the item 1 on both. I am pleased that at least my local trust quality of this afternoon’s debate. As you have already can show a clean bill of health on patient safety, putting pointed out, the Government and Opposition leads are it at the top of its agenda. nurses, and a pharmacist is leading for the Liberal Patient Safety First also suggested that there was a Democrats. An illustrious retired physician is speaking lack of clarity about the principles behind patient safety, for the Independents, and we also have an immunologist and a failure to disseminate best practice. One of the present. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Member problems of the NHS is that it lacks a coherent overall for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), the Chair of the Select strategy for promoting patient safety. As I have pointed Committee, was a member of the General Medical out, medical training is an issue. There are thousands of Council for many years. That shows how important the doctors working in the NHS today who have gone debate is. through six years’ medical training with no real formal I am particularly pleased that my right hon. Friend training on patient safety at all. At the same all-party managed to secure the debate, because there can be no group meeting I mentioned before, Oliver Warren, a Members of the House who have not had cases in their general surgical registrar at the North West London work load related to patient safety incidents, mistakes hospitals NHS trust, and a member of the National and other problems caused by medical treatment. As Leadership Council, admitted to us that he had never my right hon. Friend has already pointed out, something been given so much as a lecture on patient safety while like 10 per cent. of people who go to hospital suffer at medical school. I am sure there are generations of some type of medical error. Many of those can be NHS doctors who could tell the same story. 337WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 338WH

[Dr. Howard Stoate] not know how a pharmacist can carry out a meaningful patient medication review without knowledge of the That helps to reinforce the view that patient safety patient’s history—their medication and allergy history seems to be too mundane an issue for highly qualified and other important aspects of their care. Nor do I see clinicians to trouble themselves with. It is a cultural how they can properly advise GPs how to make sensible issue that I hope is beginning to fade, and I am pleased medication changes and checks if that information that our patient safety report is beginning to move the cannot be passed back electronically straight into the agenda on. The Government response to many of the patient record. Those parts of the record are essential. points that have been raised shows that the issue is We have already heard that one of the BMA’s objections finally taking the central role it deserves. For example, to the electronic patient record is to do with confidentiality. the emphasis on addressing MRSA and clostridium Of course that is a major issue, but the hon. Member for difficile has not only led to a significant drop in the Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) has already addressed it. Surely number of cases; it has also forced trusts to think more there must be ways nowadays, with modern computing, seriously about disease control. The safer patient initiative to improve confidentiality and safety. We do not often is another positive step. The national reporting and hear of banks losing data wholesale, or of people’s learning programmes, which my right hon. Friend has credit card details being bruited about, and if the banks already mentioned, have also been very welcome. and building societies can introduce safe mechanisms to There remains much to be done, however. First, ensure that there is reliability and confidentiality, surely leadership at all levels of the NHS is crucial. Until so can the national health service. clinical leads and managers are prepared regularly to We raised the issue on a visit to the United States to spend time hammering home the importance of patient see what happened there. The attitude was completely safety it will be hard to move forward. We also need far different. The view was that electronic records were at more transparency and reliable patient safety measurement least as safe as the old, traditional paper records, and processes. At present there is a tendency in the NHS not the issue, largely, was not taken too seriously. Those we to report incidents, or concerns about colleagues, because spoke to said that it is possible to break into a surgery of the blame culture that still exists. A formal and, and steal patient records, so electronic records must be above all, constructive mechanism for reporting errors safer than that, and we should stop getting quite so and concerns needs to be built into the NHS. We need a hung up about the small chance that someone might learning culture, not a finger-pointing culture. find out my blood pressure. Frankly, I would not be A more open and constructive approach would also particularly worried if they did. help to encourage front-line health professionals and If we wish to improve patient safety, the other thing managers to become more proactive about patient safety. that we must do is listen to patients. They are the only Instead of the cautious and guarded approach to patient people who see the patient journey right the way through safety that is taken now in many places, where it is seen from start to end, and it is a serious mistake to ignore primarily as a burden or a potential banana skin, a new their experiences and insights when building patient approach will hopefully lead to a more positive culture, safety into clinical practices. We simply cannot afford to in which it is seen as a means of driving up standards continue the “them and us” attitude that has dogged the across the board. relationship between patients and clinicians for far too We also need greater continuity of care throughout long. the NHS, which would also help us to improve patient As has already been mentioned, we need to look very safety. Patient handovers are particularly important in seriously at the way that patient safety is addressed in that respect. A lack of communication between clinicians medical training. Teamwork and communication skills can easily lead to processes being repeated or, more are not taught well enough to medical students, even worryingly, forgotten entirely. It is important, too, that though those skills are vital in promoting safety. NHS clinicians involved in each step of the patient pathway employers are also guilty in that regard; most of them through the NHS should have an awareness of each do not offer any kind of training in collaborative working other’s working processes. A better working knowledge or teamwork. That must change. During our inquiry, of the patient journey as a whole would help clinicians for example, we heard that teamwork training has the to spot potential problems that could have an impact on potential to reduce errors by between 30 and 50 per safety and provide an opportunity for them to work cent. collaboratively to address the issue. A more integrated care model, which would allow primary practitioners We should also provide more opportunities for students and secondary specialists to work alongside one another, from different medical fields to train alongside each could provide real benefits for patient safety. other. For example, some of our schools of pharmacy and of medicine have experimented with interdisciplinary It has already been mentioned that technology could training. That opportunity has given pharmacy and help to improve continuity of care. Some trusts, for medical students valuable insights into each other’s example, have been making use of virtual desktops that professions, which can only help to improve patient enable clinicians to access patient records using interactive safety. Clinical pharmacology and therapeutics are crucial bedside systems. That reduces the need for staff to log areas of study, but they have long been neglected at in and out of numerous systems, and has dramatically medical school. They are obvious examples of subjects improved the risk of clinical error. However, in most that medical and pharmacy students could usefully take parts of the country front-line professionals are not together. The failure in recent years to teach medical able to get such patient safety access quite so easily. undergraduates about the appropriate use of medicines, I have said many times in the House that the fact that and about prescribing them, has significantly increased pharmacists still cannot get electronic read-write access the risk of error and patient harm. That failure must be to the relevant part of the patient record is absurd. I do addressed. 339WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 340WH

The most important thing that needs to happen is for pretty obvious that it will be happening in other practices patient safety to be made explicitly, rather than implicitly, around the country. If we can learn from each other, we part of the national curriculum, at both undergraduate can reduce the risk of our colleagues making the mistakes and postgraduate level. It needs to be the first and last that we have perhaps made ourselves. thing that doctors in training are taught, and it needs to Those are the aspects of the report that I want to inform every single course—both core and optional concentrate on. Producing the report has been a very courses—that they take during training. useful exercise, and I hope that the Government have We have heard this afternoon that other industries found our recommendations useful. I have certainly take these matters more seriously than the NHS. The been very encouraged by the response that the Government airline industry is often used as an example of how have given to our report, and I await the Minister’s safety issues are taken much more seriously in other comments in response to my suggestions. industries than in the NHS. However, it would be wrong to extrapolate directly across from the airline industry 3.34 pm into medicine. I do not mean to belittle the airline industry, but aircraft tend to behave relatively predictably; Sandra Gidley (Romsey) (LD): It is a pleasure to if someone can fly one large jet, then broadly speaking serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Russell. they can probably fly another large jet. I am here today in a dual role; as well as a member of As I say, I do not wish to undermine pilot training. the Select Committee, I am speaking broadly on behalf However, patients do not behave relatively predictably; of the Lib Dems. I was mindful of the little anecdotes they do not necessarily respond to the “controls” in the that my medical colleagues were recounting earlier. way that doctors might like them to. It would be rather Certainly, my best man, who was a doctor, was told naive to assume that introducing airline-style systems exactly the same as other Members here today—that he into the health service would solve the problem; it would kill somebody at some stage and the only question clearly would not. However, in the airline industry, was when. As a pharmacist, I was always told that when something goes wrong, the industry’s instant response doctors buried their mistakes and pharmacists conducted is not to say, “That’s somebody’s fault.” The industry’s post-mortems on them. I do not know how true that instant response is to say, “The system has somehow expression was, but I suspect that little has changed failed this person. How can we change the system to since I heard it. reduce the risk of it happening again?” That culture This report is one of the Select Committee’s best would easily transfer across from the airline industry to reports in this Parliament, because it has attempted to the health industry, and it is one that we could take take an overarching and quite analytical look at the seriously. problem of patient safety. Very often we look at something I want to talk about primary care, which is, after all, in retrospect, and it is a credit to the Committee that it my special subject. Remarkably little is known about realised that there was a potential problem in this area patient safety incidents in primary care, because information and that it wanted to do something a little more proactive. on them is not systematically collected. It is very difficult I hope that the Government will act on most of the to make any meaningful study of how GPs report such recommendations in the report. incidents, how frequently they occur and how many are It is fair to say that, in the past, financial concerns simply not picked up by anybody at all. That needs to have been put ahead of patient safety concerns. That be addressed. has not been the case everywhere, but there has been a However, such incidents are being looked at. For lot of research of documents such as board minutes, example, on the latest appraisals for GPs, it is now which show that many items on board meeting agendas expected that GPs will look very carefully at critical relate to finance, whereas not all such boards have an incidents in their practice, and that they will use examples agenda item on patient safety. Clearly, not all boards of any such incidents in their appraisal documents, take patient safety seriously. That can lead to catastrophic saying where the incident happened in the practice and failures, such as those in the Mid Staffordshire NHS the steps that the practice took to reduce the risk of Trust and in the Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS such an incident happening again. That is extremely Trust. welcome. Unusually for our Committee, we examined the problems I am sure that this is true of the vast majority of in the Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust in an evidence general practitioners, but if we have a critical safety session. Usually we avoid examining individual examples incident in my practice, we immediately raise the matter of where things have gone wrong, because it does not at the next practice meeting. We examine what has seem to be fair to do so. However, this inquiry coincided happened, we see what we can learn from it and nearly with the incident in Mid Staffordshire. What seemed to always—well, without exception—introduce changes to be clear in Mid Staffordshire was that everybody was reduce the risk of such an incident happening again. I blaming everybody else and that nobody was taking am sure that that is happening around the country. The responsibility for any of their actions. My feeling was problem is that we do not have any systematic way of that people can blame targets if they want to make a collecting that data, and we do not really know what is political point, but we had a number of people in Mid going on. Staffordshire who should have had a code of professional It would be very useful if the Minister would consider ethics that would have prompted them to act differently. how we could make use of better reporting in general I will return to the broader question of boards and practice, and how we could encourage GPs, hopefully direction from boards. I think it was Lord Patel who on a non-blame basis, to be more up front about the suggested that one non-executive director from each systems that fail and the things that go wrong. I say that board should have special training and take a particular because when something happens in one practice, it is responsibility for patient safety. Our Committee’s report 341WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 342WH

[Sandra Gidley] I pay tribute to the chief executive of Winchester hospital. Every time he receives a complaint, he will highlighted the fact that many managers and non-executive offer to meet the complainant personally. As a result of directors with some responsibility for this area of patient his proactive approach, the number of complaints that safety have had little or no grounding in the subject. If come to me has plummeted. It can be done. Openness, we also consider the training of our health professionals, honesty and the willingness to check and review events there is a great deal of evidence to show that patient even after they have happened go a long way with safety is not part of that training. I will return to that patients. issue shortly. Clearly, patient safety needs to be more Complaints are still dealt with poorly in too many ingrained into the life and soul of the NHS. It should be places. Complaints are a learning opportunity, but we there; currently it is not. should not rely on them. Again I pay tribute to those at Safety can improve only if there is an open culture of Luton and Dunstable hospital, who have taken patient reporting, so that we can all learn from our mistakes. It safety to heart and have plenty of examples of good is very important to have a “no-blame” culture. The practice. However, as the hon. Member for Wyre Forest Government response to our report actually recognises (Dr. Taylor) said, they regularly sample case note reviews that to see what lessons can be learned. It seems essential to embed that procedure more firmly in all our NHS “removing the ‘blame culture’ around making mistakes is essential to improving NHS patient safety.” trusts, as well as in our primary care trusts. Reporting of incidents in secondary care is now good, but I do not So far, so good. believe that primary care is very much safer. I believe The Government response goes on to express support that incidents in primary care generally go unreported. for the National Patient Safety Agency and it also We must examine the reporting culture there as well. mentions the Care Quality Commission. The new CQC I will give one example to stress how open reporting regulations come into force in April, but regulation 18 can benefit us. A few years ago, when I was working as a of the current draft CQC regulations—that is S.I. 2009/3112, pharmacist, I worked as a locum, which gave me experience for those who want to rush and look up the regulations of different firms. One firm had an open reporting at the end of the debate—places a statutory duty on culture. In another, those who reported mistakes would registered organisations to report patient safety incidents receive a nasty letter telling them not to do it again. to the CQC or to the NPSA, in the case of NHS bodies. Consequently, not many mistakes were reported there. That is fine, but there is no requirement to inform However, the company with an open learning culture patients or their next of kin. That is particularly realised that 90 per cent. of mistakes were simple and disappointing, because the Government’s current approach involved two drugs in two strengths with similar names, seems to fly in the face of the Committee’s recommendation all of which came in the same type of pot. It was a that simple matter to ensure that a system was put in place “further consideration be given to the CMO’s proposal”— to highlight the difference between those four products. Problems were reduced at a stroke, and patients were that is, the chief medical officer’s proposal— better off. It is much better to foster open reporting. “for a statutory duty of candour”. Information technology was mentioned. I will not It is not enough to include a responsibility in the NHS repeat what other Members have said, but I endorse constitution, which seems to have disappeared almost fully the comments made by the hon. Members for without trace. The Government response says: Dartford (Dr. Stoate) and for Wyre Forest. The decision “There is ongoing work to consider other ways that the registration on who should have access to the summary care record requirements could be used to further clarify the requirement for should not be in the hands of doctors; it should certainly information to be made available to service users when things go be in patients’ hands. To some extent, that would avoid wrong.” the read-write access problem, as the patient could say, It would be helpful if the Minister explained that “Yes, I want you to have my records and be able to apparent backtracking, because one change that we update them.” If the matter is handled properly, the made to the NHS Redress Bill when we discussed it vast majority will want to ensure that all their health provided for a report to be published and made available needs have been taken into account. on any incident that came under the scope of the Act. It We need to put the patient at the heart of the process, is a shame that no progress seems to have been made in rather than any of the misguided interests of some— enacting that legislation. There is a certain inconsistency although not all—sectors of the medical profession, in the Government’s approach in relation to what it is because better continuity of care is essential. Also, right and proper to do. mistakes in electronic records are difficult to change. I From personal casework and professional experience, have had constituency casework involving allegations I strongly believe that advising patients and relatives is that paper notes were changed after an incident. It was crucial and usually causes far less hassle in the long run. difficult to prove, and the story was harrowing. Electronic There will always be the occasional person set on litigation communication makes such behaviour a lot more difficult. and getting the best for themselves, but I wish that I had An audit trail in medical care is essential. a fiver—only a fiver—for every time somebody has The part of the inquiry that I found fascinating dealt come to me with a problem and said, “If only they had with human factors. Improving recognition of the role explained to me at the time, said sorry and told me what that human factors play in errors is an issue that risks they were doing so it wouldn’t happen again, I would be being ignored, but to me, it was one of the most happy.” MPs’ time and the time of chief executives of important parts of our inquiry. Brian Capstick carried trusts is being wasted producing reports, all because out research in 2006 to assess the extent to which some hospitals have a culture of covering up. human error was responsible for incidents serious enough 343WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 344WH to give rise to litigation claims. He found that human work together, with the medics, nurses, pharmacists and error was the proximate cause of 97 per cent. of them. social workers all being first-year students. At that He also claimed that there were numerous systems point, such attitudes are becoming ingrained in the “whose shortcomings create enlarged spaces for human error”. students. The hon. Member for Dartford mentioned that that We saw a cleverly thought out scheme in New Zealand was true of approximately 50 per cent. of the cases that in which the doctors were in their first year of training he looked at. and the other health professionals had two or three Brian Capstick, putting together considerations by years’ more training. The trainee doctors had to rely on other people, went on to identify the types of process the nurses, pharmacists and other health workers to failure most commonly involved in mistakes. The first support them and give them the information they needed was to complete the tasks satisfactorily. Until we review the way in which training is carried out in many places, it “delays in making a primary diagnosis…or in recognizing the severity of the patient’s condition generally”. will not be as good as it should be. I say that somewhat advisedly, because my son is training to be a nurse in That usually comes down to training, which is often Southampton and he whinges like mad about the training. ignored or cut back when budgets are tight. When I had the opportunity to talk to some medical He also cited students in Southampton, to my surprise they whinged “the omission to act on adverse results”, like mad about the training as well. They said that they which again relates to a culture of open reporting and thought it would improve because in the review of learning, training they all complained and said that it was not “the lack of an adequate management plan for high risk cases very good. We have to learn from the best, because that have been identified” although training is essential, if it is done poorly it is counter-productive. and “the omission to allocate known high-risk cases to a reliable I want to mention briefly the National Patient Safety pathway or person”. Agency, which seems to be collecting a huge amount of data through the national reporting and learning system. Some of the evidence that we took from Staffordshire, However, the NPSA seems to have relatively few teeth. where blame was shifted, showed that clearer responsibilities The Chair of the Select Committee gave the example of are needed in the health service. the syringe fittings on spinal needles from 2001. I was Interestingly, another type was amazed that the Government response said that “allowing or encouraging clinicians to work outside or beyond “solid progress is being made”. their skill set”. After nine years, “solid progress” would mean that the That is crucial. We heard of the horrifying case of devices are in place to prevent further occurrences of Bethany Bowen, a five-year-old with a condition requiring the mistake. One idea put to us was that although the her spleen to be removed and who died of uncontrolled NPSA has a lot of data, perhaps it should concentrate bleeding. The reason was that the surgeon used a device on finding more detail in fewer areas. There is a need to called a morcellator, which sounds awful. It is an instrument review what it does. with rotating blades that is usually used in gynaecology. The people using that instrument had no experience of On whistleblowing, it was scandalous that the private using it on an adult, let alone a child, and the results Member’s Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Wyre were horrific. It was clearly beyond the skill set of those Forest was objected to. As constituency MPs with an surgeons. interest in health, I am sure we have all had the experience described by the hon. Member for Dartford of someone Other factors included coming to us with their problem but saying that we “the unavailability of skilled supervision, guidelines or protocols; cannot use their name because they do not think they shortcomings in clinical leadership; shortcomings in the recruitment should be speaking to us and are worried about getting or induction processes; and deficiencies in educating the patient to deal with his or her own condition.” into trouble. Lots of people come to speak to us off the record. If systems are going wrong, there needs to be an If we are serious about reducing errors and improving adequate system so that people feel they can report it. I patient safety in the health service, we need to consider hope the Government will look at that matter. how those eight factors can be minimised in all areas of clinical practice. There are only eight never events, which were chosen by the NPSA. Clearly wrong site surgery should be a The submission by the Clinical Human Factors Group never event. I think that the list should be added to and made many similar points. It stated that training in beefed up. Such events should not be looked at in human factor skills isolation and more attention should be paid to whole “such as teamwork and communication is virtually absent in procedures. I welcome the work of surgeons on the healthcare.” pre-operation checklists. I hope that such approaches Such skills should be drilled into doctors, nurses, will benefit patients and staff. In evidence, we heard that pharmacists, physiotherapists and so on from day one. checklists are not adhered to in some places. If consultants It also mentioned that do not go through the process with staff and enable “teamwork training may reduce technical errors”. them to comment, it should be a disciplinary matter. Interdisciplinary training, which has been mentioned, While I am talking about surgeons, I want to mention is good in theory, but in practice some of it is very bad. the European working time directive. The Royal College It is clear why we need it: it challenges the perceived of Surgeons has always been against the reduction to norm that doctor knows best. However, it is often 48 hours. I accept the point that I do not want to be organised so that people at the same stage of training operated on by a tired doctor who has worked over 345WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 346WH

[Sandra Gidley] development, the role of targets, the systems that we need to have in place to ensure that accidents do not 100 hours, which is what used to happen. However, I happen and that harm is prevented, audit—including also want the person working on me to have quite a few the audit of complaints—and the role of management. hours’ experience of what they are doing. There are The list could go on. serious concerns that the focus on 48 hours in the At the end of the day, some form of harm will always European working time directive makes it impossible to happen, and no system can absolutely guarantee 100 per produce an adequate rota that provides sufficient and cent. safety, as I think the hon. Member for Dartford appropriate training for surgeons. Last week, Sir Bernard (Dr. Stoate) mentioned. The Committee report states: Ribeiro, the former president of the Royal College of “AllGovernment policy in respect of the NHS must be predicated Surgeons, told me that when a consultant surgeon qualified on the principle that the first priority, always and without exception, a few years ago, they would have had about 30,000 is to ensure that patients do not suffer avoidable harm.” hours under their belt—that sounds like a lot and I have not worked out how many days it is. It is now 8,000 That is a worthy ambition, but to some extent, such a hours. That is a huge difference in experience. statement might disappoint the public, who would be utterly appalled to think that they could come to any harm when being treated by the NHS. As the hon. Dr. Richard Taylor: Does the hon. Lady agree that if Gentleman said, medicine in its widest sense—I include we both get back on the Health Committee after the all the professions allied to medicine—is an art, not a election, we should push for an examination of the way science. There is a mismatch between public perception in which the European working time directive is being and what actually happens regarding the treatment of applied and its effects? people. Sandra Gidley: That is a good idea. Some hospital The right hon. Member for Rother Valley talked trusts claim to have achieved the 48 hours. As far as I about the need to convince professions of the need for, can see, this is a tick-box exercise. Some students are and purpose of, data collection. I completely agree with complaining that they are not getting the experience that. The danger with professional staff—this includes and there are concerns among senior and experienced professions outside medicine—is that they do not surgeons that standards will slip. We cannot afford to understand why they are being asked to do what they take that risk. I was a panellist on a British Medical do, and if they do not understand why, they do not do Association question time at Southampton university it. I recently had the privilege of spending a day on a where Sir Bernard Ribeiro advised all the students to shift with charge nurse Nathan Askew on Sky ward at opt out of the European working time directive. I Great Ormond Street hospital. I would like to put on thought that was slightly unhealthy and that it put the record my thanks to the staff for putting up with unfair pressure on some students for various reasons. It me. I would also like to put on the record that all the would be helpful to review the situation, as the hon. children received absolutely fantastic care during that Member for Wyre Forest said, with a view to working day. I have no doubt they receive such care every single towards a derogation. That should not be impossible. day. The wonderful thing about NHS staff, particularly In conclusion, there are some easy things that can be nurses, is that they will have gone to no exceptional done, such as making a board member in each trust lengths to please me on that occasion; they will have responsible for patient safety. Those things are likely to simply been doing their routine work. As I say, I was happen. However, some fundamental factors at the hugely impressed by them. heart of improving patient safety, such as training and There is no doubt that NHS staff feel that some of emphasising human factors, will be more difficult to the systems in place are not useful. At times, I think achieve. As the NHS is going to be financially constrained they feel that such systems are designed to frustrate and these matters are not even on the agenda yet, a big them in their delivery of care. Many NHS staff say that push is needed to ensure that they are at the forefront of nobody asks those on the front line how data should be everybody’s thinking, because that would benefit all of collected and what will or will not work. In addition, our constituents in the long run. there has been no explanation of why such systems have been put in place. Yesterday, the Royal College of Nursing bus was in New Palace Yard, and I said to the 3.59 pm nurses there that nurses are particularly inventive at Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): It is a pleasure to working around obstacles that get in their way. If we serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Russell. I congratulate come up with a system that nurses do not like, they are the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), far more inventive than doctors—I point this out to the the Chairman of the Health Committee, on his opening hon. Member for Dartford in particular—in finding a remarks. I also congratulate the Committee on producing way around it. If nurses come up against a system that yet another balanced report. Having been a member of they do not like or do not understand the point of, they the Health Committee myself, it feels a bit like old will get around it to ensure that their patients get the times—we could be back there today. best possible care. That does not necessarily work to the Some 10 per cent. of patients admitted to hospital benefit of patients or the benefit of attempts to drive up suffer some sort of harm. That is a substantial number, patient safety. We absolutely must explain why such because the NHS treats around 1 million people every systems are put in place. 36 hours. There is a huge raft of issues to consider, as That leads me to the issue of education and training. the matter is extremely complex. A number of issues The armed forces have moved away from talking about have been mentioned: data collection, the regulation of training, to talking about education. There is a drive professions and organisations, staff and professional throughout many of the professions involved in NHS skills, education and training, continuing professional care to move towards education rather than training. 347WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 348WH

Doing so is vital. I remember from many years ago, “this activity is very expensive for smaller and lower paid professions when I was a nurse, an agency nurse on a ward who did such as ours. This appears, in part, to be driven by a wish to exactly what she was told to do. Throughout the night, comply with requirements imposed by the regulator’s regulator she observed the patient and recorded various vital the CHRE. Often there is no evidence base for what is proposed, but it seems to be driven more by political correctness than signs every quarter of an hour. In the morning, at genuine patient protection. We would like to see a far greater 6 o’clock, the patient had a cardiac arrest. Fortunately, emphasis on evidence-based patient protection and value for the patient was resuscitated. On looking at the patient’s money in regulation.” charts, one could see that the nurse had been absolutely That important point will be echoed by many. As I said, faithful in the tasks that she had been asked to do. regulation must be effective, evidence-based and However, she had not understood the purpose of what proportionate; otherwise, the whole system completely she was doing or when she should alert medical staff or seizes up. senior nurses that things were going wrong. She was not educated; she was trained to do what she was told I shall also mention targets. It is not a political matter to do. that the hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) talked about that subject. The word “target” has been Such a situation can be applied to every level of staff hijacked by party politics, but I do not want to mention and every profession. Everyone involved in patient care it in a party political way. We need to think about what needs to have a sense of ownership—for example, the we measure in the NHS, which again relates to the person who cleans the ward and dilutes the cleaning evidence base. We must ask what is effective and what chemicals needs to know why those dilutions are important, we want to achieve. I have a feeling that although we so that they know that if they get to the end of the measure a great deal of things, the one thing we do not bottle of concentrate, it is worth going down the corridor measure is whether anyone got better. There is a tendency to get a new bottle. That person needs to know that they to measure many processes but not necessarily the must not skimp on cleaning chemicals, because they are outcomes. Many targets have worthy motivations, as no contributing to the cleanliness of the ward and the one wants to spend four hours in accident and emergency, reduction in health care associated infections. As I say, but we must distinguish between process and outcome it is extremely important that we move from training to and ensure that process-driven targets do not get in the education. way of clinical outcomes. Continuing professional development improves the I visited an A andEayearago,andoneofthesenior understanding of why certain things are necessary, and physicians explained that if he had a very sick patient in is absolutely vital. That is an ongoing issue for medical A and E and wanted them to go up to intensive care, but staff. One of the dangers is that the people who are intensive care was full, they would have to be looked vigilant about continuing professional development and after somewhere else for five or six hours. He said that who attend the training courses actually do not need to he would like them to be looked after in A and E, attend, and the people who should attend such training because he felt that the nurses there had the expertise courses often do not turn up. That situation possibly and experience to deliver that sort of care, but the also occurs in this place. For example, if one attends manager of A and E would not want the patient there seminars designed to help Members of Parliament with because he was acutely aware of his targets, so there is a their constituency work, when one looks around the clash between a process target and a clinical outcome. room, one knows that none of the people present needs As with many things, that is about balance. I would like the help. The same is true in medicine, and indeed in to quote something that has been said about Mid other professions. Staffordshire NHS Trust: There is a lot of talk about regulation. One hears that “The Trust Board placed a high priority on compliance with we need regulation, because it will sort the problems nationally set targets, and, in particular, the four-hour waiting out. However, regulation needs to be effective—it is not, time target for A&E. The pressure to comply with such targets in itself, necessarily effective—and evidence-based. We came from the Department of Health (DH), the strategic health do not need knee-jerk reactions to concerns and disasters; authorities (SHAs) and the primary care trusts (PCTs)”. we need careful, considered thought and, as I say, In that case, the chief operating officer described the evidence-based solutions. We do not need regulation to sort of pressure that he was under to comply with cover—I cannot think of an acceptable parliamentary targets. That is fine, so long as clinical outcomes are not word—the rears of senior managers, Department of put at risk. Health officials or Ministers. I do not mean current Ministers in particular; I mean Ministers in general. We Nursing Times recently surveyed more than 900 nurses do not need defensive regulation; we need regulation and found that that is balanced with risk. “nearly two thirds said patients at their hospital were being I was recently approached by a number of ophthalmic treated in areas not designed for clinical care. They highlighted organisations—the Association of British Dispensing threats to safety, including patients having no access to call bells… Of those nurses who had seen the practice, nearly 60 per Opticians, the Association of Optometrists and the cent said it happened more than once a week. Two thirds said Federation of Ophthalmic and Dispensing Opticians—who patients were left in the areas for more than 12 hours—for some said: the areas are used for days at a time…Eighty-three per cent”, “The General Optical Council has dramatically increased their which is a huge number, level of activity over the last three years or so in a way which might be acceptable if we had the levels of risk of, say, GPs and “said they had raised it with senior nurses or managers but, of were paid at the same level”— those, only 4 per cent said it had then been stopped. They were commonly told that all other space was full, accident and emergency we could perhaps put that bit in brackets. The organisations was under pressure, the move was authorised by senior managers, continued: or the A&E waiting time target was at risk.” 349WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 350WH

[Anne Milton] and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust report staggering. Why did no one tell someone what was going on, and why Again, we are talking about a matter of balance. No did action not follow? I cannot understand why nothing one wants to keep people waiting. We need good happened. There is a lack of faith in whistleblowing performance and we need people to be treated effectively, policy, and a lack of action resulting from it, and there efficiently and in good time, but we also need to ensure are ineffective means of auditing complaints from patients, that clinical care is the first priority. relatives and staff. I must mention professional standards, The role of managers and boards was touched on in because I am a former nurse, as is the Minister, and I am the debate. The Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust report sure that I speak for her on this point. No one has undoubtedly makes absolutely dreadful reading. I mentioned professional standards today. recommend that many people read it to see how complex failure can be. It is not just the managers and boards Sandra Gidley: I did. that need to be looked at. The Health Committee’s report states: Anne Milton: The hon. Lady says that she did. We “There is disturbing evidence of catastrophic failure on the should fly the flag for driving up standards, and that is part of some senior managers and Boards in cases such as about clinical leadership across all the professions. Mid-Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust. While other Boards are not failing as comprehensively, there is substantial room for I finish by again congratulating the Health Committee, improvement. Boards too often believe that they are discharging and those members of it who have contributed to the their responsibilities in respect of patient safety by addressing debate. They have demonstrated a wealth of proper, governance and regulatory processes, when they should actually front-line expertise. My concern is not only about the be promoting tangible improvements in services.” complexity of the issues that are in play when it comes In the past there has been much talk of a “ward to to increasing patient safety, but about the gap between board”approach, and such an approach would eventually government, meaning Ministers and officials in Whitehall, drive up standards. The boards will have to look at and what happens on the front line. People at the top more than just the bits of paper dealing with finance might think that something is happening at the bottom that are in front of them. They absolutely must understand when it is not, so there is a gap in communications, and their core business, which is to treat patients safely. policies do not necessarily follow as a result. Many of The group Action against Medical Accidents has the strings between Whitehall and the front line have conducted some interesting research, based on freedom been cut. of information requests to the Department of Health. Lack of patient safety costs lives. Every Member will The research revealed that have constituents who have suffered because of a lack “large numbers of trusts were failing to implement the alerts, of patient safety, and some families will never recover some stretching back five years.” from their loss. Despite the sometimes defensive nature That is interesting, because data collection in itself is of chief executives of various trusts, my experience is not enough. It is what is done with the data once we that families often do not want any compensation. have them that is important. The group continued: Indeed, often they do not even want an apology. They want to know, above all else, that their experience will “Even more worryingly, the research revealed that even though this information was available to the DoH, CQC, SHAs and not be repeated, that lessons have been learned, and NPSA, absolutely no system was in place to ‘chase up’ those that no further loss will happen to other families. I am trusts, even those with large number of alerts outstanding. The pleased that the debate has not been party political, and Government’s response seeks to give the impression that there I look forward to hearing what progress the Minister was a robust system in place. Clearly, there is not. As far as we feels can be made. know, even following publication of our report, no action has been taken to find out what is going on in even the worst performing trusts. It is this kind of complacency which could allow another Stafford to happen under our noses.” 4.19 pm That is well put. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health We could have a separate debate on a huge number of (Ann Keen): It is a pleasure to serve under your concerns that have been raised, and on some that have chairmanship for the first time, Mr. Russell. not even come up. We could have separate debates on I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for health care acquired infections, no-blame reporting, the Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), who is the Chair of what is need for effective communication, which was highlighted undoubtedly a prestigious Committee in the House of in relation to maternity services in particular, drug Commons. The Health Committee has held many inquiries. errors and the role of pharmacists in reducing them, I gave evidence to this one, and was pleased to do so. As and problems arising as a result of the free movement of a practising nurse for more than 28 years, I was pleased labour in cases where English might not be a professional’s to have openness at last as to what takes place in our first language. The hon. Member for Dartford mentioned health service, and I am pleased that we are having this a matter that is dear to my heart—the fact that although debate on the important subject of patient safety. banks can transfer massive amounts of money at the I congratulate my right hon. Friend and his touch of a button, we cannot get clinical records online. colleagues on the excellent report that they produced It feels as though we cannot use even the simplest last year on this subject, and for the contribution that computerised system. If all that information is available they have made to the provision of safe services for on a computer, why is someone not acting on that? patients. The first Committee on which I served when I As for whistleblowing, anyone who has worked in the was elected to the House was the Health Committee, NHS—we have two nurses, two doctors, a pharmacist and I know of its importance and the difficult work and a scientist in this Chamber—would find the Maidstone that it has to take on. 351WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 352WH

Fortunately, the vast majority of people treated by tragedy has had on family and friends. In this case, the national health service receive high quality and much of what could have been done to reduce the risk efficient treatment. They recover and have their confidence of the incident happening was done, but a renewed and control restored, in whatever capacity they enter focus has taught us that much more can always be done the NHS. to reduce risk further. The hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) I was humbled by the meeting and by the positive acknowledged the expertise in the Room, and mentioned way in which Mrs. Richards-Everton chose to deal with that I share her profession, which was nursing. I am the tragedy. We discussed ideas and suggestions for sure she would admit that we never practised in a improving the information systems underpinning patient golden age, regardless of the matrons that the hon. safety development. Those suggestions were not only Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) wants back. They helpful but full of common sense. Her straightforwardness are back—we have brought our matrons back—and enabled us to see through her eyes how a bureaucracy ward sisters are firmly in place. They were highlighted deals with risk and sometimes overcomplicates what in the report on the Prime Minister’s Commission on should be simple. Having petitioned the Prime Minister, the Future of Nursing and Midwifery. I have no doubt and having met with me and my officials, she has, that, had we practised together, we would have had without hesitation, accepted an invitation to become some interesting times and provided very safe patient involved in a forthcoming patient safety conference that care. will continue to raise the profile of safety in the administration of medicines. Dr. Richard Taylor: Would the Minister agree that the Mrs. Richards-Everton’s experience has also called concept of the matron has been watered down by into question how professional regulators deal with having rather a lot of them, instead of one figurehead clinical staff when things go wrong. In particular, that who really could move around the hospital like a galleon has helped the Nursing and Midwifery Council to review in full sail and frighten people into doing what was how it writes to complainants to explain decisions about right? investigations and the outcomes of fitness-to-practise hearings, to ensure that letters are clearer and much Ann Keen: It is very brave of the hon. Gentleman to more sensitive. Her ideas and suggestions will contribute go down that path. I know that across the river at significantly to safer services and, importantly, ensure St. Thomas’ hospital there are quite a number—more that others do not have to go through what she went than 50—of modern matrons. I challenge him to debate through. with them at any time to see whether there is agreement on that. Many women and men perform an excellent The lesson that we must learn from that experience is function as matrons across the NHS. that managers and clinicians cannot by themselves shape The hon. Member for Guildford mentioned targets. and deliver safe services. The engagement of patients, We must be aware that they are based on clinical decisions. families and carers is important if we are to get this I do not want to be party political either, but I know right. As well as understanding and trying to make that in her party’s manifesto in 1992, the patients charter provision for the tragic personal consequences that mentioned four-hour targets for accident and emergency unavoidable errors can lead to, reducing and preventing that were to be reduced eventually to two hours. Sadly, mistakes generally is a mammoth challenge. The that was not achieved, but today’s targets have improved Committee’s report has reminded us of some key things patient care and have undoubtedly saved lives. that we need to get right if patient safety is to be embedded effectively into health care planning, development One million people are treated by the NHS every and delivery. 36 hours, and nine out of 10 people see their family doctor in any given year. The NHS is a successful, First, there needs to be a culture of openness. No one internationally regarded institution of which we can all should argue with that, but sadly, some recent reports be justly proud. However, we must recognise that in a show that there is not a culture of openness throughout system as big as the NHS, which provides treatment and our health care systems. What do we mean by a culture care to so many people, sadly mistakes and unforeseen of openness? What did it mean to practise with certain incidents can and will happen. clinicians, or to be with certain managers who bullied, and who undoubtedly brought about a culture in which Mistakes and errors in other service sectors may not one stayed quiet and did not admit to mistakes? result in harm to a person’s health, but that is not the case in health care. A relatively small error can result in As the hon. Member for Wyre Forest said, we all severe harm or even death. Although human nature and make mistakes at some stage, and the Select Committee the risks associated with the provision of complex treatment Chair said that it happens in the House. In all areas of mean that some errors are inevitable, we must work life, mistakes are made. How do we manage mistakes? towards preventing and reducing as many avoidable How are we treated? How do we expect to be treated errors as we can. An error in the NHS may not itself when we are open and above board with people? This is cause harm, but if we can understand the reasons for so important to the culture of an organisation. Successful the error occurring and put in place actions that mitigate organisations are open and efficient. They manage their against its occurring again, we might be able to prevent finances well, and they train, develop, care for and look someone from being harmed at a later date. after their staff. That is the key to much of our success, I recently had the great privilege of meeting Mrs. Lisa along with the all-important communications. Richards-Everton and her brother-in-law, Stephen Richards. It is important to be open and candid with patients, Sadly, a drug was administered to Mr. Paul Richards in families and carers when things go wrong, and to ensure error, which created a fatality. I do not profess that I that staff are part of a culture that supports them in would ever be able to measure the impact that that dealing with incidents that have harmed, or may harm, 353WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 354WH

[Ann Keen] in the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 to receive concerns raised by staff. All NHS providers of regulated patients. A blame culture has pervaded some parts of activities are required to register with the CQC. the NHS for far too long, and I would be foolish if I Secondly, although patient safety relies on the were to say that it no longer exists anywhere. conscientiousness of individuals, organisational robustness I have the privilege of being the Minister responsible, and clear leadership is needed if a consistently high but, as Aneurin Bevan asked when he was the Health level of patient safety is to be achieved. The Committee Minister, was he to get the blame in Whitehall when a also emphasised that local services need to be provided bedpan fell off a trolley in Tredegar? I have the title, so I with relevant and effective information, support and have to accept some of that responsibility, but I know advice from central Government and their agencies. that all NHS staff are involved, from the senior managers Also, it said that a robust monitoring and regulation down, including the chief executive. process needs to be in place to ensure that all NHS organisations, not just some, reach the standards we all The hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) expect of them. mentioned a chief executive being able to sit and listen to complaints, which is a first-class example of how I am pleased that the Committee’s report praises the people should behave. We know that that would make a Government for being first in the world to adopt policies difference. They should be walking the floor, being that make patient safety a priority, and that it welcomed visible. We must do all that we can to change any the creation of the National Patient Safety Agency. I practice that creates a culture that is not open. We pay tribute to all who work in such an important area. should stop looking for scapegoats and consider what We are seen as one of the world leaders in the international lessons can be learned from patient safety incidents to drive to improve the safety of health care. We were one avoid them in future. One key element of this is the of the first countries to give priority to tackling patient freedom for staff to raise any concerns that they may safety by focusing on a whole-system approach. The have about patient safety. 2000 report, “An organisation with a memory”, which has galvanised action on patient safety, is still regarded The hon. Member for Wyre Forest and I were in the internationally as a seminal document. House on the Friday that his private Member’s Bill, about which there was expectation and hope, might The NPSA was set up in 2001, and its reporting and have gone through. The way that the House deals with learning system is the most comprehensive national private Members’ Bills has always been a mystery to me, incident-reporting system in the world. Every NHS and is a mystery to most people in the House on the day. staff member in every type of organisation—acute, We did not reach the hon. Gentleman’s private Member’s primary care, mental health and ambulance trust—can Bill, but we had the opportunity to discuss in the report patient safety incidents. Patients themselves can Department some days beforehand what we could take also report directly to the NPSA. The reporting and from it and what we could learn from his experience. learning system received nearly 3.9 million patient safety Those discussions will continue, so that we can find out incident reports between October 2003 and 30 September how we can work with some of the recommendations. It 2009. would be foolish to ignore those. What the NPSA does with that information is regarded most highly. As well as sharing regularly with the NHS I worked with the right hon. Member for Holborn information on trends in respect of types of incident and St. Pancras (Frank Dobson) when he was Secretary and levels of harm, it provides information, guidance, of State for Health in 1997 on the first opening up of alerts and tools to highlight the safety risks in general our NHS culture to enable whistleblowers to be protected. and specific areas and supports the NHS in heading off I have been a whistleblower. As a district nurse I reported potentially harmful practices. We are grateful to the an incident that I witnessed in a private nursing home. Committee for acknowledging the valuable work carried It took courage to continue with that complaint, but out by the NPSA, an organisation that we are proud of. courage I had, and it was eventually dealt with and the nursing home lost its licence. That was in the 1980s. “Safety first” was published in 2006, setting out the chief medical officer’s vision for furthering patient safety Hon. Members might remember a nurse called Graham and leading to a number of national initiatives, not least Pink, who in the ’80s exposed the care of elderly people the patient safety first campaign that has brought together in his area. I was pleased to be part of the group of a number of national stakeholders working to a common 20 nurses that was acknowledged by Nursing Times. aspiration. Graham was acknowledged as one of the most influential My hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Dr. Stoate) nurses of his time, and in the past 60 years of the health has done so much as a Member of Parliament, not only service. In the ’80s, people did not say anything: the fear as a member of the Health Committee but in many about what would be likely to happen if they reported other areas of work that he has promoted or has been something was serious. involved with as a chair. I am sorry that he is standing I am pleased with the progress. We have established a down at the election. We should acknowledge his work working group with Public Concern at Work, the trades today, with your permission, Mr. Russell. In respect of unions and NHS employers to update the guidance on some of the matters that my hon. Friend raised, it might whistleblowing and to identify what further measures help if I said that the NPSA now has an e-form for can be taken to give a louder voice and stronger protection general practitioners that was launched in November to staff who speak up. The NHS constitution gives a last year, which is used for reporting and learning from clear set of rights to staff: to be treated well, to be any mistakes and for spreading information. Safety and supported properly in a rewarding job and to blow the safeguarding is one of the CQC’s priorities. Such matters whistle without fear of repercussions. The Care Quality are raised separately, so perhaps we could look further Commission and Monitor are listed as prescribed bodies at that matter and discuss it another time. 355WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 356WH

Lord Darzi, in his NHS next stage review report, of implementation of such technologies in the NHS. It “High quality care for all”, reminded us all what patient cannot come soon enough as far as this Minister is safety means in the context of providing quality services concerned. and of the importance that patient safety should be We promised the Committee a review on the accorded. Safety is a core dimension of quality and implementation of “Coding for Success”, which is a relies on a whole-system approach, so that patients are policy document from 2006. It focuses on the use of able to receive the highest level of care. barcoding and other auto-identification technology to “High quality care for all”, and Lord Darzi’s interim make services safer. That policy document dates from report, introduced a number of new policy developments 2006, and we need to fast-track it. The review is in for patient safety. For example, from April 2010 a progress, and we will share the outcome with the Committee service commissioner will be able to retrieve from a shortly. hospital the cost of any treatment that leads to a never We must continue to ensure that as well as listening to event. Never events are serious, largely preventable patient patients and their families and carers, we include patient safety incidents that should not occur if the available safety champions in our national dialogue. The National preventive measures have been implemented. PCTs are Patient Safety Forum was established for exactly that required to monitor the occurrence of never events purpose. It is linking into the work of the recently within the services they commission and publicly report established National Quality Board to ensure that patient them annually. This is such a change in the way that we safety is not seen as an afterthought, but is promoted as practise health care: it is open and transparent, not like an integral part of health care delivery. the secret ways of the past. The more that figures are published on when harms take place, the better. It is I will try to address some of the points that were those areas where nothing seems to take place that raised during the debate, including the recent one raised cause me some concern still, because, health care being by the hon. Member for Romsey. Time will not constrain so complex, it is difficult to accept that there has not me because the debate may continue, but my eyesight been some evidence that there has been harm, so people may constrain me in fully delivering all the answers that are perhaps practising in a secret way. my dedicated and hard-working officials have prepared for me. I will do my best. The role of the regulator in achieving safe services On the NHS Redress Act 2006, changes in arrangements cannot be underestimated. The establishment of the by the NHS Litigation Authority have resulted in quicker Care Quality Commission and the introduction of settlement of claims, particularly when they are small registration requirements for all health and social care and straightforward. Case note reviews are a central organisations will be a powerful tool for us to use in the feature of the patient safety first campaign, and not a furtherance of patient safety.The regulations underpinning one-off. They are carried out regularly every month the registration system, which are currently going through with lessons learned and improvements made. the parliamentary process, contain some specific requirements for patient safety. Until now, unlike the On NHS foundation trusts, the Secretary of State requirements for the social care and private health care said that it is absolutely essential that FT board meetings sector, the reporting of serious patient safety incidents are held in public. There is absolutely no need for such in the NHS has been voluntary. The registration meetings to be held in private, and we will monitor that. requirements that are due to become operational on The purpose of the legislation on foundation trusts was 1 April will make it mandatory for serious patient safety to make boards more accountable; foundation trusts incidents to be reported to the NPSA, which will share were brought into being so that they would be more the information with the CQC. We must also recognise accountable to the public. Mid Staffordshire NHS that patient safety involves a diverse range of stakeholders Foundation Trust did not hold board meetings in public. with different skills, training, experience and knowledge, It should have done, but it chose not to. There is clear and working in different service sectors. guidance that all foundation trusts should hold board meetings in public, and the Secretary of State gave a clear reminder of that recently. Sandra Gidley: The Minister mentioned the changes in the regulations for the CQC. Will she explain why On the summary of care records, this major initiative there is no compulsion to inform patients and their is being rolled out nationally. The BMA only recently relatives, and why the opportunity was not used to raised concerns. The work is still in progress, but I am introduce a duty of candour? assured that progress is being made. The hon. Member for Romsey asked why there was Ann Keen: I will mention that when I draw my comments no requirement for patient incidents to be reported to to a conclusion. the CQC— My Department must do what it can to corral the interests in patient safety to ensure that each complements Sandra Gidley: Or patients. the other. As well as clinical care, there are other areas that the Committee said we must not forget. For example, Ann Keen: Or patients. Such incidents have caused there is no doubt about the potential for information serious harm or even death, and it is almost inconceivable technology to bring significant patient safety benefits. that they would not be reported. They could not be Medication errors, record documentation error and covered up from patients. It would be totally inexcusable, communication failure feature among the most common and similar to reporting an infectious disease to the major causes of patient safety incidents. The Department Health Protection Agency but not informing the patient of Health recently established a national stakeholder that they have an infectious disease. I am happy to group to consider how best to facilitate the acceleration discuss the matter outside the debate. 357WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 358WH

[Ann Keen] Britain. Will pharmacists be included in that consultation? Clearly they are involved in primary care and are forward- The national reporting and learning system is the facing, but they are sometimes forgotten. largest and most comprehensive anywhere in the world. It is the envy of many other countries, and has been Ann Keen: I feel confident that I will be able to say yes further developed and improved to make reporting to the hon. Lady. I hope to be in regular contact with easier and learning from it much quicker. her for some time, and I know that she will pursue the Patient safety as a discipline is about 10 years old. It matter. Those clinicians, with the possible inclusion of has taken time—perhaps a little too much time—to pharmacists who have a key interest in this area, have develop sound principles, but they are now in place, and agreed to take part, and we will ensure that it is the start are part of the curriculum for many health care of a wider consultation process as our ideas progress. I undergraduates. The Government have frequently stressed have also asked for further discussions with the Care that it must be a mainstream, key priority for all NHS Quality Commission and the National Patient Safety staff. It certainly features in front-line care and strongly Agency on the practicalities of introducing a statutory in patient safety with the deans of all the nursing and duty, if that is the way people feel we need to go. medical colleges. The Health Committee’s report has reminded us that Comments were made about civil aviation, and I have we still have much to do to ensure that as many patients been reminded that we have been active in transferring as possible receive the safest possible care. My conversations some of the culture and lessons of civil aviation to the with people such as Mrs. Richards-Everton tell me that NHS. The Committee took evidence from Martin Bromiley, all our systems can be improved. It would be wrong of a practising airline pilot. We are grateful for the insight me to claim today that we will be putting in place that he is giving us on the human factors in particular. nationally a rigorous process to ensure full compliance We continue to work with him. with every safety alert issued, although I wish that could be the case. However, I assure hon. Members that On extending and expanding the list of never events, we will continue to strive to do everything that we can, the National Patient Safety Agency is considering adding and work with and listen to everyone who is able to help to the existing list, and any addition will be evidence-based. us. If we are leading internationally at the moment, There have been suggestions in the press recently that other countries will learn from us, but we must always the Government are not serious about being open and remember that our first duty to our patients, and our candid with patients, families and carers when things go first duty as guardians of the NHS, in whatever way wrong, and the subject was raised during the debate. and capacity we perform that role, is to put safety first, Nothing could be further from the truth, and I want to for quality and patient care. make it clear today that under the NHS constitution all NHS staff have a duty to be open and honest with patients at all times, particularly in these difficult situations. 4.52 pm A statutory duty of candour is being sought by some Mr. Barron: I am not tempted to fill in the remaining individuals and organisations, and on the face of it a time available for the debate, but perhaps you would legal duty on staff to be open looks attractive. I have allow me to respond to the debate, Mr. Russell, and to often said that we must do what we can to ensure that thank everybody who has taken part. The Minister organisations and individuals take their duties in this spoke about the impending retirement of my hon. Friend respect seriously. In my view, a statutory duty, if it could the Member for Dartford (Dr. Stoate), who has played be made workable, is not the key issue to focus on a solid role on the Health Committee for many years. initially; it would be the icing on the cake. May I also mention my hon. Friend the Member for Before considering whether a statutory duty is necessary Bristol, North-West (Dr. Naysmith), who is present this or workable, we must do what we can to ensure that a afternoon but has not spoken in the debate? Both will culture of candour develops, giving staff the confidence be retiring at the next election, and from my perspective to be open, safe in the thought that they will not be as quite a green Chair of a Select Committee when I scapegoated for an error that might not be of their moved to the Health Committee in 2005, they have been making. That would close down communications rather of enormous use, not only for the report, but to me as than open them up. A lot of work is being done in this an individual. Their experience has helped me on many area, and we should consider whether more can or occasions to chair the Committee and to bring reports should be done. I have asked officials to set up a small such as this to the House. I wish them both well in stakeholder meeting giving proponents and opponents whatever they plan to do once they leave the House. of a statutory duty the opportunity to put their views The Minister has mostly responded positively to the on record, and to use that as a starting point for a outcome of our inquiry into patient safety, both this defensive policy review. afternoon and in her written responses. I would like to I am pleased to say that organisations such as Action address three areas, one of which was mentioned by the against Medical Accidents, the National Association of hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) and relates LINks Members, the Council for Healthcare Regulatory to the evidence we took about the European working Excellence, the Medical Protection Society, the British time directive. I do not want to rehearse the issue now, Medical Association, the NHS Confederation and the but there was concern about the ability of young surgeons Royal College of Surgeons, together with a number of to get appropriate experience and training. clinicians with key interests in that area, have already When the Committee looked at independent sector agreed to take part in the initial meeting. treatment centres, phase 1, which took uncomplicated orthopaedic cases, we found an absence of training for Sandra Gidley: I must declare an interest as I was a our young surgeons in those establishments. At the fellow of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great time, it was said that the surgeons would be trained in 359WH Patient Safety18 MARCH 2010 Patient Safety 360WH phase 2 of the ISTCs, although we know that many of there because they were held on a central database. If them have not taken part. I emphasise to my hon. those records had not been held in that way, it would Friend the Minister that we must seize such opportunities. have been a catastrophe for the management of some of No matter what is happening with the working time those people. That has been well written about since, directive and changing hours, we must seize opportunities but the Health Committee knew about it then. Everybody to train young surgeons, so that they can go into such who has attended the debate will see the point of institutions and train on a daily basis. Someone in the that—I am looking at the hon. Member for Guildford Committee mentioned practice, but intense training in (Anne Milton) because one or two of her colleagues doing that type of surgery is the best way. We did not have questioned this issue on occasion. If millions of serve those young surgeons well by agreeing to have the people can have individual banking records, why can we ISTCs and an absence of training. That was one area I not have that for public sector records, certainly for the wanted to mention, because the real issue is what will management and the safety of patients? I hope that happen in the future, and whether there will be any people will read and listen to this debate, and take that diminution in the quality of our surgeons. I am sure into account. that all future Health Committees will want to look into I agree with the Minister not only about the work of the matter. the NPSA up to now, but about the potential for that One issue that all speakers mentioned during the work to bring in more data and for people to learn from debate, which I touched on too, was the use of technology, such data. I am sure that in a decade’s time—even I will particularly information technology. Everybody who not be in this place talking about health and patient spoke in the debate agreed that we need to use such safety then—we will be far more knowledgeable. technology. The summary care record was mentioned, I want to finish on what is in part a negative note. and there have been recent BMA outpourings on that. None the less, I think that I should bring this up, The issue is not new. About three years ago when we because the Minister brought up the fact that the culture began to look at IT in the national health service, I of openness was lacking and the challenge back in the visited a local GP surgery in a village that I represent, 1980s by Nurse Pink. I have the press report that came and I was told that there were great issues of confidentiality. out when the final report of the independent inquiry I was told that a pass card was needed to get into the into the events at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation system. I asked how many people had a pass card, and Trust was published and I shall read out one paragraph found that although there were five GPs in the practice—it from it. Speaking at the publication of his final report, was quite large—there were 11 pass cards. I asked who Robert Francis, QC, said: had the other six cards if there were only five GPs, and I “The Inquiry found that a chronic shortage of staff, particularly was told, “Well, the people who do the letters have got nursing staff, was largely responsible for the substandard care. the other six.” I said, “It doesn’t seem to me that there is Morale at the Trust was low, and while many staff did their best in a great concern about confidentiality in your practice, if difficult circumstances, others showed a disturbing lack of compassion six non-clinical people have access to your electronic towards their patients. Staff who spoke out felt ignored and there records”. is strong evidence that many were deterred from doing so through fear and bullying.” The BMA must get a grip on that issue. Everybody knows about the potential not only for summary care That is not acceptable in any health care system. It records but for other records to improve patient safety certainly is not acceptable in a 21st century health care and look after patients, but some people have had their system that is more than 60 years old, as the NHS is heads in the sand for a number of years. The hon. now. We have a long way to go to improve our health Member for Romsey said that we cannot alter patient care system if reports such as that are now and again records, but it is possible to trace who opens an electronic coming before us. I hope that the Health Committee record. We can go back and see whether anybody has report and what has been said about it in today’s debate gone into it who should not have done, but who knows go some way towards improving patient safety in this who looks into the paper records in a GP’s surgery—the country. We need to get away from the blame situation. Lloyd George records as they are called? There is no We need to be more open. We need to learn what trace of who does that. aviators learn. When there is a near miss, everyone should know about it, so that if such an incident can be There is also the issue of patients’ records being avoided, it will be avoided in the future. altered when things have gone wrong. I have personal experience of that from when I sat on the General I thank all hon. Members for taking part and you, Medical Council as a lay member and looked at fitness Mr. Russell, for giving us the opportunity to debate the to practise many years ago. There were occasions when report. This will be the last debate that we have on a people altered records because something had gone Health Committee report in this Parliament. wrong with a patient. That is wholly unacceptable, and a way of getting round it is to introduce proper electronic Bob Russell (in the Chair): I thank the right hon. records together with confidentiality. Gentleman for bringing the debate to a close and I thank all those who participated. For what it is worth, My hon. Friend the Member for Dartford mentioned from the Chair it was a delight and a pleasure. the time we went to the USA. We visited the veterans agency that looks after ex-service men and women. It Question put and agreed to. has a database of 4 million people. During the hurricane in New Orleans, all the local records were lost, but the 5.2 pm records of the ex-service men and women were still Sitting adjourned.

67WS Written Ministerial Statements18 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 68WS

legislation—to allow sufficient time for external views Written Ministerial and evidence to be gathered and considered by Parliament when it scrutinises the new legislation. Statements The Government are today launching a public consultation exercise on the draft Terrorist Asset-Freezing Bill, which will close in three months’ time on 18 June Thursday 18 March 2010 2010. The consultation document, which would complement and aid any future scrutiny by Members of both Houses or a Select Committee, if that is the decision of Parliament, explains the background to terrorist asset-freezing: the TREASURY terrorist threat and the role of finance in supporting terrorism; the international framework for terrorist asset- Terrorist Asset-Freezing freezing; and the UK’s current approach to terrorist asset-freezing. The consultation document also sets out how our current terrorist asset-freezing legislation works The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah and explains the provisions in the proposed new terrorist McCarthy-Fry): Following the decision of the Supreme asset-freezing legislation. The consultation particularly Court quashing the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) invites views on the following questions: Order 2006, and its indication that the Terrorism (United Does the draft Bill set out the most effective way of meeting Nations Measures) Order 2009 was vulnerable to being our UN obligations and protecting national security while also quashed on the same basis as the 2006 Order, Parliament ensuring sufficient safeguards in respect of human rights? passed the Asset-Freezing (Temporary Provisions) Act 2010 Do you have any views on the current operation of the UK’s in February. The Act restores the validity in law of the asset freezing regime under the Terrorism Orders? UK’s terrorist asset-freezing regime until 31 December Does the regulatory impact assessment reflect accurately the 2010, providing a period for Parliament to consider and costs and benefits of the regime? Is there more that can be done to reduce the costs for the financial sector and others in pass more permanent legislation without, in the meantime, implementing the regime while maintaining its effectiveness? incurring a gap in our terrorist asset-freezing regime The Government hope that the consultation exercise that would have damaged national security. will be useful in stimulating public debate on these The Government have set out their proposals for important issues and that it will provide a valuable permanent terrorist asset-freezing legislation in the draft source of views and evidence that will assist Parliament Terrorist Asset-Freezing Bill that was published on in scrutinising the Terrorist Asset-Freezing Bill in due 5 February 2010. The structure of the draft Bill follows course. closely that of the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) The Government are keen to work with Parliamentary Order 2009 and contains a number of safeguards to Committees and all Members of both Houses of Parliament protect human rights, for example the requirement that to seek to achieve a cross-party approach to taking asset freezes can only be made where necessary for forward the draft legislation. public protection and the requirement that asset freezes expire after 12 months unless the Treasury has reviewed the case and made a fresh decision to renew the asset State of the Estate freeze. The Government are committed fully to ensuring The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): that there is proper transparency and accountability to Today I have placed copies of the report on “The State Parliament with respect to the operation of the terrorist of the Estate in 2009” in the Libraries of both Houses. asset-freezing regime. That is why since December 2006, This report, required by the Climate Change Act 2008, the Treasury has reported quarterly to Parliament on provides an assessment of the efficiency and sustainability the operation of the terrorist asset-freezing regime. The of the Government’s civil estate and records the good most recent report was laid on 8 March 2010. progress that Government are making as well the The draft Terrorist Asset-Freezing Bill will further improvements that continue to be made. This is the strengthen transparency and accountability to Parliament, second time that Government have reported in such a by enshrining in law the requirement to report quarterly comprehensive way and this has allowed improvement to Parliament on the operation of the terrorist asset-freezing trends to be analysed. The report is published on an regime, and by requiring an annual independent review annual basis. of the asset-freezing regime, with a report following such a review to be laid before Parliament. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Consistent with our commitment to transparency, the Government have made it clear that they wish there to be full and proper scrutiny of our proposals for new Capenhurst Nuclear Site terrorist asset-freezing legislation. These are important legislative proposals. It is right that members of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy public and other interested parties should have the and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): My noble opportunity to consider the proposals and submit views Friend the Minister of State for Energy and Climate and evidence. And it is right that Parliament’s consideration Change today made the following statement: of the legislation in due course should be informed by I would like to inform the House that a direction modifying the views and evidence of the public and interested and partially revoking the Energy Act designating directions for parties. This is why the Government proposed a the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority’s Capenhurst site has sunset clause of 31 December 2010 in the temporary been laid before Parliament. 69WS Written Ministerial Statements18 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 70WS

The direction removes two small plots of land from the area Current levels of alcohol-related hospital admissions, designated in 2005 and we are satisfied that NDA has discharged crime, and deaths are unacceptable. Much more can, all its responsibilities in relation to decommissioning and clean up and will, be done to turn around the drinking culture in of this land. This area may be reused by Urenco in the future, and this country. We are currently taking forward action on potentially provides for future investment at the site. a mandatory code to tackle the irresponsible promotion Any new developments will be subject to regulatory and other consenting processes. of alcohol. New, and strengthened, campaigns, this year will raise public awareness further on the link between drinking too much and poor health, and on the HEALTH harm that alcohol can do to children. Today’s publication is in the Library and copies are Health Select Committee Report on Alcohol available to hon. Members from the Vote Office. (Government Response)

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian HOME DEPARTMENT Merron): We are laying today before Parliament the Government’s response (Cm 7832) to the Health Select Committee report on Alcohol, which was published on Protecting Crowded Places from Terrorist Attack 8 January 2010. The range of the Health Select Committee’s inquiry and their report recognises the scale and complexity of The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism the challenge we face. Alcohol is a rapidly rising major (Mr. David Hanson): My noble Friend the Parliamentary public health challenge and the Government have been Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office, Lord working hard to address it, but there is no single action West of Spithead, has made today the following written we can take to change our culture overnight. ministerial statement: The Government’s response welcomes the Health Select The then Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend Jacqui Smith, Committee’s thorough and far-reaching report on alcohol. announced in her statement on 14 November 2007, Official While we are working to deliver our current strategy, we Report Vol. 467, c. 44WS, the outcome of my review on how best believe their recommendations will make an important we protect crowded places from terrorist attack. and lasting contribution to the ways in which Government This review concluded that further improvements would be achieved by putting in place a number of initiatives. These included and society regard this important issue. publishing, after further consultation, guidance on a new strategic The breadth of the Committee’s inquiry and the national framework to encourage greater partnership working at nature of the report has required in-depth consultations the local level and doing more to protect buildings from terrorism across Government. In particular, the Department has from the design stage onwards. liaised closely and extensively on this response with We published for public consultation on 20 April 2009 two those other Departments called to give oral evidence to documents that set out the Government’s approach to reducing the Committee: the Treasury, the Home Office and the the vulnerability of crowded places to terrorist attack. The consultation Department of Culture, Media and Sport. Each of period ran for 12 weeks and concluded on 10 July 2009 and was those Departments has also wished to ensure that the supported by a series of stakeholder events in the English regions and in Scotland and Wales. We received 103 written responses, Committee received the fullest response where their (mainly from private and public sector organisations). We have areas of responsibility and those of the Department of been very pleased with the level of engagement a wide range of Health coincide. partners have had with the consultation process. We are also The Government take the health and social harms pleased that most respondents thought that the Government’s caused by alcohol seriously and our Government strategy approach, with its emphasis on identifying and describing the on alcohol recognises the challenges we face as a society. potential contributions key stakeholders could make, was the right one. Action on alcohol requires close working between sectors and Departments, and a careful balance between In the light of the consultation exercise, the Government are publishing today a number of documents. “Working Together to protecting the rights of the individual, and protecting Protect Crowded Place” relates to the United Kingdom as a the health of the nation. whole and while reflecting the differing arrangements in the The comprehensive strategy we have in place tackles devolved Administrations, it aims to encourage greater partnership these problems in four main areas: working at the local level between local authorities, other local to help people make informed decisions (for example, information partners and in particular businesses. and education campaigns and labelling). The Committee recognises “Crowded Places: The Planning System and Counter-Terrorism” that information and education policies do have a role as part is jointly published by the Home Office and the Department for of a comprehensive strategy; Communities and Local Government and is sharply focused on to create a healthier environment (for example, through licensing guidance that is directly relevant to the role of planning officers. and enforcement regimes). The Committee has welcomed the While this document applies only to England, it will be of interest mandatory code on alcohol retailing and called for its early to devolved Administrations in considering what guidance they introduction; might offer within the context of their own planning systems. to provide advice, support and treatment for people at risk (for “Protecting Crowded Places: Design and Technical Issues’” is example, providing “brief interventions” in primary care and jointly published by the Home Office, the Centre for the Protection treatment services for dependent drinkers). We welcome the of National Infrastructure (CPNI) and the police National Counter- Committee’sviewthatearlydetectionandinterventioninalcohol-related Terrorism Security Office (NaCTSO). It contains design and ill health are both effective and cost-effective; and technical counter-terrorism protective security guidance that will to improve the underpinning delivery system to support those be of particular interest to architects and designers and their services. For example, from 2008 the Government created the clients. first ever indicator for primary care trusts to tackle alcohol-related We are also publishing today on the Home Office website, an hospital admissions. Our alcohol improvement programme impact assessment and an accompanying equality impact assessment, supports PCTs taking action in this area). including the Government’s response to its recommendations. 71WS Written Ministerial Statements18 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 72WS

We will keep our overall approach, contained in the published and Skills (BIS) has already commissioned research documents, under review to ensure that it delivers the proportionate which will shed more light on international students’ reductions in the vulnerabilities of crowded places that we want experience of the post-study work route, the jobs they to see. take on and whether or not the availability of post-study Copies of the documents published today will be placed in the leave to remain was decisive in them choosing to study House Library. in the UK. The Government have therefore decided that any further consideration of this recommendation should await the outcome of that research. Immigration Rules The UK Border Agency is also publishing a statement of policy for sponsors to ensure they have as much detail as possible about the Government’s response to The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil the MAC’s recommendations, including those which do Woolas): I wish to make the following statement. not require legislative action to implement. Armed Forces Today’s rules changes also make relatively minor I am making a change to the Immigration Rules, laid changes to other parts of the points-based system. before the House today, to change marriage visa age Under tier 4, we are making a number of changes that policy so that the age requirement is lowered to 18 for will support the introduction of the new highly trusted serving members of the armed forces and their partners. sponsor category from 6 April. We are also amending This recognises the role of partners in supporting those the rules to permit sponsored researchers, who are on the frontline. I believe that it is important that we part-way through research projects at our higher education give the armed forces special consideration to reflect the institutions, to make an application to extend their leave unique circumstances in which they operate. under the Government authorised exchange sub-category Points-based System of tier 5. Other changes I am making to the Immigration Rules ESOL/Knowledge of Life today implement recommendations made by the Migration We are also making some changes to the requirements Advisory Committee (MAC) to change tier 1 and tier 2 of concerning English language qualifications for migrants the points-based system. seeking indefinite leave to remain in the UK. It is The points-based system continues to provide a flexible important that immigrants seeking permanent residence means to better identify and attract those migrants who in the UK have some understanding of one of the have the most to contribute to the UK, while enforcing native languages of this country (English, Welsh or our effective border controls against those with less to Scottish Gaelic) and of life in the United Kingdom. offer. Tier 1 is for the most highly skilled workers, and This will help to ensure that they integrate more easily tier 2 for other skilled workers who have a job offer into the British way of life. from a UK employer licensed to sponsor migrants. I have today laid changes to the Immigration Rules The Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) provides which will ensure that all applicants relying on qualifications the Government with independent, evidence-based advice in English for speakers of other languages will study at on the economic case for managed migration. The accredited colleges; ensuring the quality of provision MAC published its recommendations for tier 2 on and preventing the possibilities of abuse of the provisions 19 August 2009, and its recommendations for tier 1 on and exploitation of migrants. I have also clarified the 4 December 2009. In arriving at them, it considered progression which migrants are required to demonstrate evidence from hundreds of organisations. The Government before applying for permanent residence. Additional have also engaged with a wide-range of employers, technical changes bring the rules into line with current trade unions and other organisations to ensure that the terminology for the relevant qualifications. changes we make meet their needs and control migration in the best interests of the UK as a whole. Equivalent amendments are also being made to the I can announce today that the Government are accepting regulations governing applications for naturalisation as all but two of the MAC’s recommended changes to tier British citizens. 1. The statement of changes to the Immigration Rules Protection/Asylum Rules laid before the House today includes new points tables We are also making some relatively minor changes to for both tiers, a simpler route for very highly skilled the Immigration Rules on asylum in order to clarify workers without master’s degrees, greater flexibility for existing practice and procedure in the UK. These changes short-term transfers by multinational companies, and will have the effect of preventing asylum applicants more protection against such transfers being used to nil from claiming humanitarian protection where there are long-term vacancies that should go to resident workers. serious reasons for considering that they have engaged We have disagreed with the Committee in the awarding in undesirable behaviour as set out in the rules. of points for professional qualifications held in addition We have also clarified interview procedures for to academic qualifications. We consider the approach unaccompanied asylum-seeking children and have removed would be complex, confusing for applicants and difficult an unnecessary requirement for an asylum seeker to be to administer, and that operationally it would be very asked to sign the interview record after their asylum difficult to assess which combinations should attract interview to verify its contents. We have done this particular points. So the Government have not accepted because we are satisfied that there are other procedures the recommendation at this time. in place to safeguard the process. Further, the MAC recommended that the Government commissions detailed analysis of the economic returns Tier 5 Youth Mobility Scheme to studying at particular institutions and for particular I am pleased to announce that we will be adding degree subjects. The Department for Business, Innovation Monaco to the youth mobility scheme. 73WS Written Ministerial Statements18 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 74WS

Retention and Disclosure of Records (Independent The Government must always look to ensure there is Review) an effective and efficient system to deliver justice so that we can continue to provide these vital public services at a level that offers real value for money for the taxpayer. The Secretary of State for the Home Department Therefore, after careful consideration and following the (Alan Johnson): I am today publishing the report of the public consultations, I am today announcing the closure Independent Adviser for Criminality Information of the following underused courts: Management, Mrs. Sunita Mason, into the arrangements Bourne Magistrates Court for retaining and disclosing records on the police national Bridport Magistrates Court computer (PNC), together with the Government’s response. Cheshunt Magistrates Court I am placing copies in the Libraries of both Houses and in the Vote Office. Cullompton Magistrates Court I welcome Mrs. Mason’s helpful report and I accept Dorking Magistrates Court the principles behind all her recommendations, although Eastleigh Magistrates Court in some cases we will need to think further about how Gainsborough Magistrates Court they should be delivered. Havant Magistrates Court In looking at retention Mrs. Mason had regard to the Launceston Magistrates Court recent Court of Appeal judgment in the “Five Constables Louth Magistrates Court Case” and in the light of the findings has recommended Mildenhall Magistrates Court that the current retention arrangements should continue. We agree with that view. Minehead Magistrates Court On disclosure of records, while Mrs. Mason considers Sherborne Magistrates Court that the current arrangements for sending information Sleaford Magistrates Court to the Independent Safeguarding Authority (ISA) should Stamford Magistrates Court be maintained, she is not persuaded that employers Wantage Magistrates Court always need to see old and minor records. She suggests Wareham Magistrates Court that some rules are developed to filter out such cases Wells Magistrates Court and that a non-statutory panel be established to provide Ministers with further advice in this area. This impacts Whitby Magistrates Court on the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act (ROA) and Widnes Magistrates Court cannot be considered in isolation from that legislation. I have not yet made a final decision on the proposed Mrs. Mason also recommends wider reform of the closure of Leigh County Court. I am still considering ROA. The Government agree that the Act needs to be this matter, and will make an announcement in due looked at afresh to see what might best be considered in course. today’s context, and that work should include public It is right that going to court should not place undue consultation, before moving to introduce any reforming stress on the victims and witnesses of crime. Her Majesty’s legislation. Courts Service has made significant improvements in The other major recommendation in the review is the facilities for these court users over recent years. that further work should be done around the disclosure These improvements have helped to make giving evidence of soft intelligence as part of enhanced criminal record in court less stressful. We need to ensure that court checks. Mrs. Mason is concerned that soft intelligence is buildings have suitable facilities for all court users. disclosed too routinely in such circumstances and wonders Many of the courts listed above are significantly under- whether the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) disclosure utilised and do not have adequate facilities for victims should be limited to conviction data. This is a complex and witnesses. In addition, a number of the buildings area, but once again I am anxious to ensure that the do not allow adequate access for disabled court users. disclosure process is proportionate and I will be asking Due to the low utilisation rates and in some courts, officials to look at this further. physical constraints, I do not believe it would provide good value for money to spend taxpayers’ money to bring these buildings up to the required standard. JUSTICE Magistrates courts developed in certain locations in the late 19th and early 20th centuries when areas of local government (then responsible for these courts) HM Courts Service Estates were much smaller and transport links were elementary. It is no longer necessary to have a court in every small town. This was recognised by many of the former The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor Magistrates Courts Committees who made a very significant (Mr. Jack Straw): The Government are committed to number of closures. Successive Governments have in ensuring that everyone has access to justice and that recent decades had to undertake closure programmes. justice is provided locally. We need to ensure that we Since 1997, the Government, with this announcement, have a modern court estate that is properly aligned to will have closed 171 courts, compared with 450 courts where services are needed, that the estate is efficiently which were closed between 1979 to 1997. Our plans utilised and that courts have the necessary facilities for ensure that communities have access to good quality victims and witnesses and to allow proper access for local courts within a reasonable travelling distance. We court users with disabilities. On 13 October I announced have considered the suitability and proximity of nearby full public consultations on the closure of a number of courts which can meet the needs of the community. under used courts. Most of the courts affected are not currently hearing 75WS Written Ministerial Statements18 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 76WS cases. Therefore, cases in that area have been heard at a A copy of the consultation document and accompanying impact nearby court which has not caused significant disruption assessment has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses and to court users. In many cases the better facilities available will be available from: http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open. have improved their experience at court. The consultation papers asked respondents to comment on any impacts that closure may have. In the light of the EU Transport Council responses received, I am confident that the closures will not have a significant adverse impact on the provision of local justice. Indeed, as many respondents noted, The Minister of State, Department for Transport these closures will assist the delivery of modern justice (Mr. Sadiq Khan): The first Transport Council of the services and provide communities with better, more Spanish presidency was held in Brussels on 11 March. efficient facilities. The United Kingdom was represented by Andy Lebrecht, The responses to the consultation papers will be Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU. published on the Ministry of Justice website. Copies The Council agreed a general approach on a directive will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses, in the on transportable pressure equipment. The directive aims Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. to revoke obsolete directives on pressure equipment and therefore remove conflicts between EU law and international rules on the transport of dangerous goods. It will align PRIME MINISTER with the changes to the international agreements on the carriage of dangerous goods by rail and road (RID and Intelligence and Security Committee Annual Report ADR) which form the annexes of Directive 2009/68/EC. (2009-2010) The United Kingdom supports this general approach. There was a progress report on the proposal for a The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): I have today directive on aviation security charges. The Commission laid before the House the Intelligence and Security noted that the subject, and notably the question of who Committee’s Annual Report 2009-2010 (Cm 7844). This should pay for any more stringent security measures, follows consultation with the Committee over matters was complex and that there were no obvious solutions. that could not be published without prejudicing the The first reading and vote from the European Parliament work of the intelligence and security agencies. is scheduled to take place in April. Following that I have also today laid before the House the Government’s vote the presidency will examine the proposal and response to this report (Cm 7845). Copies of the report decide how it should be taken forward. The Council and the response have been placed in the Libraries of agreed to the presidency approach and took note of the both Houses. progress report. The United Kingdom is content with I am grateful to the Intelligence and Security Committee this approach. for its valuable work. The Council reached a general approach on a regulation on investigation and prevention of accidents and incidents in civil aviation. The regulation seeks to facilitate the TRANSPORT standardisation of legislation and co-operation in the investigation of accidents and incidents in civil aviation. New Vans (Carbon Dioxide Regulation) A number of interventions were made by the majority of delegations (including the UK) in support of the presidency The Minister of State, Department for Transport text, with comments being made on the independence of (Mr. Sadiq Khan): My right hon. Friend the Secretary the network, the participation of the European Aviation of State for Transport, Lord Adonis, has made the Safety Agency in safety investigations, the role of judicial following ministerial statement: authorities, the protection of sensitive safety information and release of passenger lists following an accident. The Government are today publishing a consultation document and accompanying impact assessment on the European Commission There was general consensus that these issues could be proposal for a regulation on the carbon dioxide emissions of addressed as the European Parliament proceeds with its new vans. consideration of the proposal. The United Kingdom

We strongly support the principle of regulating van CO2. This supports this general approach. sector of road transport accounts for a growing proportion of There was an update from the Commission on progress transport emissions, and we estimate this regulation would save in the negotiations on a second stage EU-US Air Transport millions of tonnes of CO2 emissions within the next decade. It would also improve the fuel economy of vehicles, thereby substantially Agreement. The Commission noted the good progress reducing the running costs of those using vans as part of their made in widening the scope of the agreement to include business. environmental, labour and regulatory issues. While the Our priority for this regulation is to set an ambitious but US Congress was currently unwilling to relax investment realistic long-term framework for the reduction of emissions and ownership in US airlines, it was felt that the US had from this sector. The regulation must respect the realities of the conceded some useful points that would make the agreement sector to ensure that it does not reduce the diversity of the van mutually beneficial. The Commission raised the three market. In some areas we believe that the Commission is broadly outstanding issues of liberalisation, noise and commercial right, for example in making separate provision for manufacturers selling below a certain volume of vans, and in encouraging new rights. Member states were broadly supportive of the emission-lowering technologies. For other aspects we believe the Commission’s approach and welcomed the recent progress approach should be modified. on environmental matters. However, there were several We are already taking an active part in discussions with the interventions by delegations seeking to ensure that the European Commission and other member states on this issue and final agreement strikes the right balance. The Council outcome of the consultation will feed into our evolving position. urged the Commission to continue negotiations on this basis. 77WS Written Ministerial Statements18 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 78WS

There was a brief discussion on electric cars under improvements in knowledge and information sharing between AOB during which the United Kingdom reiterated that regulators, and LPG suppliers and users. electric vehicles were only part of the solution to On 14 September, I announced the publication of decarbonising transport and that any solution must be House’s progress report which set out details of the technologically neutral. programme to replace buried metallic pipework with polyethylene pipes, supported by an inspection campaign WORK AND PENSIONS by HSE and local authority inspectors. This work is now well under way. Discretionary Social Fund The progress report also announced the launch of a consultation exercise seeking stakeholder views on Lord The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work Gill’s remaining recommendations. We are grateful to and Pensions (Helen Goodman): The Secretary of State those who responded to the consultation for their helpful will be making changes to the discretionary social fund comments. Having considered these responses and advice in relation to direction 17, with effect from 1 April 2010. from the HSE board, the Government are now able to With effect from 1 April a new benefit sanction for all publish its full response to the ICL Inquiry. first offences of benefit fraud, “One Strike”, will be introduced along with a sanction for those jobseeker’s The Government support the majority of Lord Gill’s allowance claimants who fail to attend their fortnightly proposals for a new LPG safety regime including the reviews. Direction 17 of the discretionary social fund introduction of installation records for LPG users; will be amended to take account of these new sanctions. registration of LPG suppliers; clearer demarcation of This will ensure that all healthy childless people with no responsibilities between LPG users and suppliers; the caring responsibilities who apply for a crisis loan, regardless production of an asset register by suppliers; and improved of which benefit they receive, will not be able to counter guidance for users on meeting their legal obligations. a benefit sanction by applying for a crisis loan for living HSE will consult with stakeholders further on the details expenses. As now, they will be able to apply for a crisis of implementation. loan to alleviate the consequences of a disaster or for The Government have decided to not take forward the expenses for items for cooking or heating when Lord Gill’s proposals for an independent verification there is a proven risk to their health or safety. scheme or for independent audits of workplace risk assessments but will instead take steps to raise awareness ICL Inquiry Report (Government Response) among users of their responsibilities within the existing legislative framework, underpinned by appropriate The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Yvette enforcement activity. We believe that this approach will Cooper): I am today announcing the publication of the effectively deliver the outcomes that Lord Gill envisaged. Government’s response to the ICL Inquiry Report. The Government acknowledge the need to ensure The Government’s response (CM 7849) has been laid that the replacement polyethylene pipes themselves remain before Parliament and will be published later today. In safe. We have therefore asked HSE to undertake any publishing the response I would like to once again additional research needed into the safety of these pipes extend my condolences to the families and friends of and to consult the LPG industry and pipe manufacturers those killed and injured in the factory explosion at ICL on appropriate integrity tests. Plastics Ltd in Glasgow on 11 May 2004, and thank Lord Gill for his work and his considered recommendations Finally, the Government agree with Lord Gill that following this tragic—and avoidable—event. effective communication is vital to ensuring the continuing safety of small bulk LPG installations. The HSE will On 16 July, I announced the publication of Lord work with the LPG industry to develop clear and practical Gill’s report into the underlying causes of the explosion advice for LPG users regarding the fulfilment of their at ICL Plastics, resulting from a leak of liquefied petroleum statutory duties. gas (LPG). As part of his report, Lord Gill recommended a four-phase action plan to secure the safe operation of I hope that the Government response goes some way small bulk LPG installations. The plan consisted of: to addressing the concerns of those have suffered as a a systematic replacement of buried metallic service pipes with result of this tragic event and reassures them that the polyethylene pipes and inspection of buildings with an LPG Government are determined to ensure that similar events supply; do not happen in the future. the establishment of a new safety regime for small bulk LPG installations including the introduction of an independent An analysis of the responses to the preliminary verification scheme; consultation exercise, and other information used in the continuing development of the safety regime with particular developing the Government response, is now available reference to polyethylene pipes; and on the HSE website at: http://www.hse.gov.uk/iclresponse 15P Petitions18 MARCH 2010 Petitions 16P Petitions ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

Bridleways (Canvey Island) Thursday 18 March 2010 The Petition of Paula Holt and others, Declares that the horse riding community of Castle OBSERVATIONS Point, and Canvey Island in particular, is desperate for safe places to ride in the borough, notes that riding at Waterside Farm, the Northwick Road fields and the sea wall between Haven Road and Northwick Road are now all closed to horse riders because of barriers COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT put up by the council to prevent motorbike riders, but which only actually stop horse riders; further notes that we need more bridleways across the whole borough Second Entrance to Higham Ferrers College and that this activity provides exercise and much pleasure for all age groups and is traditional within the The Humble Petition of residents of Higham Ferrers, borough. Northamptonshire and the surrounding areas, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Sheweth, Commons urges the Government to encourage Essex County Council and Castle Point Borough Council to that there is a massive increase in the volume of review bridleway provision in the borough and to ensure pedestrian and vehicular traffic using the Queensway, that traditional bridleways are maintained, and new the one and only access to the Ferrers Specialist Art and safe bridleways are provided. College, Higham Ferrers; that these circumstances have resulted in significant damage to the grass verges and And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Bob pathways of the nearby residential estate; and that the Spink, Official Report, 9 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 765.] Petitioners believe that a secondary entrance to the [P000380] College via the A6 bypass would considerably alleviate Observations from the Secretary of State for Environment, many of the current problems. Food and Rural Affairs: Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable The Government are committed to improving the House urges the Secretary of State for Communities off-road riding network and believe that horse riding and Local Government to request that Northamptonshire makes a significant economic and social contribution to County Council in conjunction with East Northamptonshire many communities. DEFRA is aware that the current District Council and Higham Ferrers Parish council rights of way network does not serve the needs of horse investigates the current problems and introduces a proposal riders particularly well and encourages local highway for a second entrance to the Higham Ferrers Specialist authorities to take a strategic view of their public rights Art College. of way network with the aim of reflecting modern And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever patterns of demand and land use and providing better pray, &c.—[Presented by Mr. Peter Bone, Official Report, for the needs of users. 9 March 2010; Vol. 507, c. 271.] The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 required local highway authorities to prepare Rights of Way [P000749] Improvement Plans (ROWIPs), setting out how they intend to achieve the Government’s aims. ROWIPs are Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities prime means by which local highway authorities identify and Local Government: the changes and improvements that need to be made in order to meet the Government’s aim of better provision Improvements to the local road infrastructure in the for equestrians as well as walkers, cyclists, and people Higham Ferrers area are primarily the responsibility of with mobility problems. the local highway authority, in this case Northamptonshire County Council, and thus the Secretary of State would Most authorities have now prepared a ROWIP and not normally comment on the condition of the local the evidence we have received so far indicates that local highway or proposals for its improvement. highway authorities have taken account of the needs of horse riders. However, ROWIPs are strategic and The Government Office for the East Midlands should not be prescriptive about the means by which understands that the Ferrers Specialist Arts College was rights of way are to be established. We would expect granted planning permission by East Northamptonshire local authorities to look at a range of options for Council for a new access off the A6 in July 2009. implementation. Essex County Council’s ROWIP sets Although the applicant has entered into a Section 278 out that as part of their theme of making a more agreement with the County Council to construct the continuous network, particular focus will be on the new access, progress has for the moment halted due to a provision of bridleways. Judicial Review being brought by a third party. In the Local Highway authorities have a duty to assert and light of this it would not be appropriate to comment protect the rights of the public to the use and enjoy further on the issue and the petitioners would be advised public rights of way. This means they are obliged by law to continue to pursue their concerns directly with the to keep rights of way open and useable. There are local authorities concerned. various provisions that assist in carrying out this duty. 17P Petitions18 MARCH 2010 Petitions 18P

Local Highway authorities also have a duty to consult organisations and landowners. The Forums are an ideal Local Access Forums which can have a significant input opportunity for horse riding groups to feed in their into planned improvements. Local Access Forums are comments and proposals for improving the bridleway statutory bodies and have representatives from user network. 965W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 966W

The increase in costs in 2008-09 was because the Written Answers to Wales Office had only one special adviser who was based in Cardiff and who needed to be in London for Questions work on a regular basis. All official travel by special advisers is undertaken in accordance with the requirements of the Ministerial Code and the Civil Service Management Thursday 18 March 2010 Code. Departmental Theft

PRIME MINISTER Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Creative Industries what steps the Department is taking to deter theft from within the Department. [322657] Mr. Vaizey: To ask the Prime Minister who has been invited to attend the meeting on the creative industries Mr. Hain: My Department operates a clear desk policy, ensuring that all personal or sensitive material is with his special adviser on 19 March 2010. [322856] locked away at the end of each working day. We also The Prime Minister: My officials and I have meetings have 24/7 security at both our London and Cardiff with a wide range of organisations and individuals on a based sites. range of subjects.

Reading Berkshire HEALTH Mr. Rob Wilson: To ask the Prime Minister whether Arthritis he sought to inform the hon. Member for Reading East of his visit to Reading on Monday 1 March in advance Mrs. Dean: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of the visit. [322487] how many GPs with a special interest in rheumatology there are in (a) each The Prime Minister: I understand my office did seek primary care trust area and (b) England. [323219] to inform the hon. Member of the visit in advance. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information on the number of general practitioners with special interests in individual WALES specialties is not collected centrally and could not be obtained other than at disproportionate expense. Departmental Buildings Arthritis: Drugs Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much his Department spent on office for Health with reference to the Prime Minister’s press refurbishments in each of the last 10 years. [320465] conference of 25 January 2010, what steps (a) have Mr. David: In the current financial year the Wales been taken and (b) the Department of Health has been Office spent £8,186 on new furniture to provide a dedicated asked to take in relation to RoActemra. [322268] Video Conference facility which links our London and Mr. Mike O’Brien: The National Institute for Health Cardiff offices. In 2008-09 there was no expenditure on and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is an independent body refurbishment. In 2007-08 the Wales Office spent £52,900 and it would not be appropriate for Ministers to interfere on a refurbishment project to replace worn and damaged in an ongoing technology appraisal. I wrote to the carpets, furniture and curtains, including bomb blast Prime Minister on 9 March 2010 to assure him that curtains, for health and safety as well as security reasons. RoActemra for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis is There has been no expenditure on refurbishment in receiving a thorough assessment through NICE’s previous years. technology appraisal process. Departmental Pay Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 26 February 2010, for Wales how much was paid in reimbursable expenses Official Report, column 807W, on arthritis: drugs, if he to special advisers in his Department in each of the last will place in the Library a copy of his letter to the five years. [320478] Prime Minister. [322269]

Mr. Hain: The amount claimed in reimbursable expenses Mr. Mike O’Brien: No, because it relates to the by special advisers is: formulation of Government policy. Drugs: Rehabilitation £

2004-05 2,520.71 Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State 2005-06 2,037.60 for Health how much has been spent on methadone 2006-07 2,671.39 replacement programmes in South Sefton Primary Care 2007-08 1,462.17 Trust in each year since 2000; and how many individuals have received treatment under these programmes. 2008-09 7,070.67 [322638] 967W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 968W

Gillian Merron: Figures for the amount of money Health Services: Dance spent on methadone programmes in South Sefton Primary Care Trust (PCT) are not collected centrally. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the cost to the Drug treatment consists of packages of individualised public purse of the dance classes offered under his care based on an assessment of an individual’s need. Department’s Change for Life programme. [322238] Typically opioid substitution treatment with prescribed drugs like methadone and buprenorphine is only one of Gillian Merron: Free dance classes were offered on 6 a number of components of effective treatment programme. and 7 March 2010 as part of the Let’s Dance with This makes it difficult to isolate the cost of a single Change4Life promotion. The Fitness Industry Association component, such as methadone prescribing. provided at no cost to the public purse the dance classes which had an equivalent value of £1.2 million. The The National Drug Treatment Monitoring System Department spent £650,000 on publicising the classes (NDTMS) records the number of people receiving and digital expenses related to the Let’s Dance with prescribed opioid substitute treatment (methadone or Change4Life website. buprenorphine) from specialist services or their general practitioner (GP), but not which drug they are being Health Services: Greater London prescribed. Figures for the Sefton drugs partnership area are shown in the following table: Mr. Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information his Department holds on the number Number of patients who used accident and emergency services in London North West district in each of the last five 2005-06 985 years. [322443] 2006-07 1,130 Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information is not held in the 2007-08 1,156 format requested. Information is available on the number 2008-09 1,234 of attendances at accident and emergency (A and E) Notes: departments for individual national health service trusts. 1. Data for years before 2005-06 were not broken down to local areas The NHS trusts in London north west with an A and and are therefore unavailable. 2. Figures combine numbers receiving prescribed opioid substitute E department in at least one of their sites are: Hillingdon treatment from specialist community services or GPs. Hospital NHS Trust; North West London Hospitals 3. NDTMS does not record which drug is prescribed (methadone or NHS Trust; Ealing Hospital NHS Trust; Imperial College buprenorphine). Healthcare NHS Trust; West Middlesex University Hospital 4. Figures for South Sefton PCT are not collected centrally by the NHS Trust; and Chelsea and Westminster Hospitals NDTMS. Source: NHS Foundation Trust. National Treatment Agency The information is shown in the following table.

Total attendances at A and E departments and minor injury units, NHS organisations in England, including activity at partner PCTs, 2004-05 to 2009-10 Quarter (Q) 3 2009-10 Name 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Q1-Q3

London north-west combined 827,016 916,634 923,512 957,951 970,629 780,613

The Hillingdon Hospital NHS Trust 86,996 115,142 117,189 126,226 129,866 102,328 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 197,679 210,882 204,407 224,375 239,886 214,364 Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 97,375 101,134 102,801 102,101 98,324 74,861 Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust n/a n/a n/a 130,905 266,927 205,777 St Mary’s NHS Trust 139,529 155,588 154,134 78,676 n/a n/a The Hammersmith Hospitals NHS Trust 108,882 112,644 110,011 56,150 n/a n/a West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust 90,019 107,373 118,558 123,768 119,011 98,754 Chelsea and Westminster Hospital NHS Foundation 106,536 113,872 116,413 115,752 116,616 84,528 Trust Notes: 1. Independent sector-provided services were added in Quarter 1 2007-08. These data were collected retrospectively at the end of 2007-08. They were added to the QMAE from Q1 2008-09. 2. “n/a” = not applicable. Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust was formed on 1 October 2007 from the merger of St Mary’s NHS Trust and the Hammersmith Hospitals NHS Trust. St Mary’s NHS Trust and the Hammersmith Hospitals NHS Trust activity in 2007-08 is in respect to Q1 and Q2, while Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust is in respect of Q3 and Q4. Source: Department of Health dataset QMAE. Published. Revised 12 February 2010 in line with the Department’s revision policy.

Hearing Aids (2) how many (a) analogue and (b) digital hearing aids the NHS has issued in (i) Ribble Valley, (ii) Lancashire and (iii) England in each of the last five Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Health years. [322905] (1) what estimate he has made of the number of people for whom analogue hearing aids (a) are the preferred Phil Hope: NHS hearing aids are provided by qualified and (b) most appropriate type of aid; [322903] audiologists who undertake individual assessments. The 969W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 970W assessment determines whether an individual requires a Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust hearing aid and if so what type is suitable for their hearing loss. The Department does not collect central Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State information on the types of analogue or digital hearing for Health pursuant to the answer of 9 March 2010, aids that have been dispensed or individuals’ preferences. Official Report, column 192W, on Mid Staffordshire General Hospitals NHS Trust, if he will place in the In Vitro Fertilisation Library a copy of each item of correspondence relating to mortality rates at the Trust in each of the years Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Health referred to in the Answer. [322367] (1) what obligation (a) strategic health authorities and (b) primary care trusts have in respect of NHS Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information could be obtained guidance on the provision of three cycles of in-vitro only at disproportionate cost. fertilisation treatment to NHS patients; [322809] (2) how many primary care trusts provide up to three cycles of in-vitro fertilisation treatment to NHS NHS: Billing patients; [322810] (3) how many strategic health authority regions Mr. Willis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health provide three cycles of in-vitro fertilisation treatment what guidance his Department has provided to primary to NHS patients. [322811] care trusts and other NHS purchasing departments on the recommended time period for payment to suppliers. Gillian Merron: A Department survey of primary [322824] care trusts (PCTs), in 2009, showed that 27 per cent. provided three cycles of in-vitro fertilisation (IVF) treatment Mr. Mike O’Brien: The guidance issued by this to patients who fulfilled the criteria for funding, an Department to the national health service on the increase from 5 per cent. in 2007. A further 23 per cent. recommended time period for payments to suppliers is of PCTs provided two cycles and 47 per cent. provided contained within the NHS Manuals for Accounts. In one cycle. Information on IVF provision at the level of summary, this states that all NHS trusts, primary care strategic health authority (SHA) is not collected centrally. trusts (PCTs) and strategic health authorities (SHAs) must comply with the Better Payment Practice Code by The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence paying at least 95 per cent. of bills within contract was commissioned by this Government to produce a terms or within 30 days where no terms have been clinical guideline on fertility. Published in 2004, the agreed. guideline recommended the provision of up to three cycles of IVF for eligible couples. In addition, David Nicholson, the chief executive of the NHS, has written to NHS trusts, PCTs and SHAs There is no obligation on either SHAs or PCTs to emphasising the importance placed on prompt payment, adopt the recommendations set out in the fertility guideline, and the need to comply with both the Better Payment but the Government have made clear that they expect Practice Code and Government Accounting. He has national health service organisations to do so over time also reminded them that they have a key economic role using available resources. to play in their local communities and of the importance To support PCTs in this we have undertaken a of having best practice payment processes in place. programme of work, including the publication of a Monitor, the independent regulator for foundation trusts commissioning aid considering the barriers to the provision (FTs), has also written to FTs regarding prompt payment of IVF, dissemination of standardised access criteria processes. prepared by patient group Infertility Network UK, and have held the first ever conference for commissioners of fertility treatments. NHS: Contracts

Medical Treatments Abroad Mr. Willis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information his Department holds on the number Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State of NHS organisations which have outsourced their for Health pursuant to the answer of 9 March 2010, finance departments to (a) SBS in India, (b) other Official Report, column 191W, on medical treatments companies in India and (c) other foreign countries. abroad, what assessment he has made of the reasons [322803] for the increase in the number of E112 authorisations relating to maternity care between 2007 and 2008. Mr. Mike O’Brien: NHS Shared Business Services [322791] (NHS SBS) is a 50:50 joint venture between the Department and Steria and provides shared finance and accounting Gillian Merron: Between 2007 and 2008, the United services to 100 national health service organisations. Kingdom, in line with other European Economic Area NHS SBS delivers services through an integrated onshore (EEA) countries, switched from funding planned maternity and offshore model. Its offices are based in Leeds, care using the Electronic Health Insurance Card to Bristol, Southampton and Ilford in the United Kingdom, issuing an E112 in order to inform capacity planning and in Noida and Pune in India. throughout the EEA area. This change explains the The Department does not hold data on other outsourced increase in maternity-related E112s between 2007 and finance contracts and the locations from which they are 2008. delivered. 971W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 972W

NHS: ICT These targets address current UK and international environmental commitments and expectations, including Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State the 10:10 carbon emissions reduction campaign, as well for Health what proportion of the National as the operational arrangements for Parliament in 2010-11. Programme for IT’s (a) capital and (b) revenue They are supported by a robust environmental improvement expenditure was spent on (i) the central contracts with plan to ensure the targets are achieved. CSC and BT in each financial year since 2004 and (ii) operating Connecting for Health. [314569] ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information is not available in the form requested. The Department does not routinely Bearwood Corporate Services collect whole-programme management information relating to expenditure on the national programme for information Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the hon. Member for technology (IT) separately from figures covering its South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee wider responsibilities for national health service TV. on the Electoral Commission if the Electoral Commission will place in the Library a copy of the report of its Social Services investigation into Bearwood Corporate Services; [322794] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will conduct a review of the arrangements for the (2) if the Electoral Commission will place in the funding and allocation of wardens in sheltered housing Library a list of the officials and staff of the Conservative accommodation and the provision of low-level social Party who did not accept the invitation for interview care in England. [307360] with representatives of the Electoral Commission as part of its investigations into Bearwood Corporate Mr. Ian Austin: I have been asked to reply. Services; [322795] The provision of sheltered housing schemes is non- (3) if the Electoral Commission will place in the statutory and the employment of wardens and care Library a copy of the report by forensic accountants workers within those schemes is a matter for local commissioned as part of the Electoral Commission’s authorities and other providers of sheltered housing. investigations into Bearwood Corporate Services. [322796]

Mr. Streeter: I will give the hon. Member substantive HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION replies as soon as possible. Departmental Energy

Mr. Doran: To ask the hon. Member for North FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission British Indian Ocean Territory: Fisheries further to his answer of 1 March 2010, Official Report, column 836W,on departmental energy, if the Commission will make arrangements for the House to participate in Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for the Earth Hour event on 27 March 2010. [323512] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he has made in renegotiation of the contract with the Nick Harvey: It has now been agreed that, for the Marine Resources Assessment Group for management hour in question, the floodlights and clock lighting will of fisheries in the Chagos Islands. [322859] be turned off, and those working on the Estate will be encouraged via the intranet to turn off their office Chris Bryant: No renegotiation of the British Indian lights. Ocean Territory Administration’s current contract with Marine Resources Assessment Group Ltd. has taken Parliament: Environment place. The current contract is due to expire at the end of May and there is an option to extend that contract for a Mr. Doran: To ask the hon. Member for North further year under the current terms. Any new contract Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission for management of the territory’s fisheries would be put what targets the House of Commons Commission plans out to tender. to set to improve Parliament’s environmental performance. Iran: Nuclear Power [323513]

Nick Harvey: The Commission has recently endorsed Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Parliament’s new environmental policy statement and and Commonwealth Affairs what his most recent the following short and long term environmental targets: assessment is of the development of Iran’s nuclear To reduce carbon emissions by 7 per cent. by 2010-11 and programme; and if he will make a statement. [323132] 34 per cent. by 2020-21, relative to 2008-09; To reduce water consumption by 12 per cent. by 2010-11 and Mr. Ivan Lewis: The International Atomic Energy 25 per cent. by 2020-21, relative to 2008-09; Agency (IAEA) Director General’s 18 February report To reduce the volume of waste generated by 10 per cent. by outlines why we have serious concerns with regards to 2010-11 and 25 per cent. by 2020-21, relative to 2008-09, and Iran’s nuclear programme. Iran continues to stockpile To recycle 60 per cent. of waste generated by weight by 2010-11 enriched uranium and develop heavy water projects in and 75 per cent. by 2020-21. defiance of UN Security Council Resolutions (UNSCRs). 973W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 974W

Iran has gone further and has announced its intention For winter 2009-10, for Great Britain, to 3 March an to build more enrichment plants and begun some estimated 11.8 million cold weather payments worth an enrichment to higher levels (20 per cent. U-235) despite estimated £296 million have been authorised. Payments the IAEA asking for sufficient time to install safeguards authorised have not necessarily already been paid. measures. Most importantly I share the IAEA’s concerns The Government provide information about Cold about the possible existence in Iran of past or current Weather Payments on the Directgov website at: undisclosed activities related to the development of a www.direct.gov.uk nuclear payload for a missile. Iran must either comply with UNSCRs and co-operate with the IAEA, or face This includes the eligibility rules, details of how payments further sanctions. are made and a postcode search which allows customers to find out whether the weather station that is linked to Organisation for Economic Co-operation and a specific postcode has triggered. Development: Israel Source: DWP records of triggers to weather stations up to and Dr. Starkey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign including 3 March 2010 and estimates of potential and Commonwealth Affairs what account the Government qualifiers by weather station. plans to take of Israel’s observance of OECD rules on Departmental Pay (a) corruption, (b) intellectual property rights and (c) extraterritorial economic activity in determining its policy on Israel’s application for OECD membership. [322902] Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much was paid in reimbursable Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK supports Israel’s bid for expenses to special advisers in her Department in each accession to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation of the last five years. [320481] and Development (OECD). Jonathan Shaw: Please see in the following table the On the specific points raised: details of reimbursable expenses to special advisers in (a) Israel became a party to the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention each of the last five years. on 10 May 2009, and has made significant progress in this field, amending its legislation on sanctions for, and jurisdiction over, Total expenses paid the offence of bribery of foreign public officials, in response to Financial Year (£) the recommendations of the Working Group on Bribery. We now look to Israel to address the remaining recommendations of the 2005-06 427.50 Working Group 2006-07 428.48 (b) During the accession process, Israel made significant 2007-08 349.90 commitments to make changes in its regulatory framework for 2008-09 226.60 the protection and enforcement of intellectual property rights. 2009-10 132.00 (c) There are a small number of issues, in particular the scope 1 To date of statistical data, which are being resolved in the course of the Reimbursable expenses are expenses claimed by special accession process. advisers and do not include expenses which are paid directly by the Department for example centrally booked travel, mobile phones provided under a central contract etc. WORK AND PENSIONS Departmental Training Charities: Food Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions how many sessions of media training Work and Pensions what information her Department were organised for Ministers in her Department in each holds on the number of (a) food banks and (b) food of the last three years. [310240] co-operatives providing free or affordable food for poor people. [320981] Jonathan Shaw: This information is not collated centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Jim Knight: Information on the number of such organisations is not held centrally. Economic Activity

Cold Weather Payments: Chelmsford Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the economic activity rate was for Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (a) men and (b) women with (i) no long-term health and Pensions how many people in each Chelmsford problems, (ii) long-term health problems, (iii) long- postcode district received cold weather payments in term musculo-skeletal problems, (iv) chest problems, each of the last six months. [320984] (v) heart problems, (vi) mental illnesses and (vii) learning difficulties in each (A) region and (B) country Helen Goodman [holding answer 8 March 2010]: The of the UK in (1) 2006 and (2) 2009. [321043] information requested is not available by Chelmsford postcode districts. Cold weather payment information Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. is only available by weather station. The weather stations The information requested falls within the responsibility that cover the Chelmsford postcode districts also cover of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority areas that are not part of the districts. to reply. 975W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 976W

Letter from Stephen Penneck: Organization (ILO) definition, people are classed as economically As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I active if they are in employment or unemployed. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking The estimates provided comprise those who have had a health what the economic activity rate was for (a) men and (b) women problem lasting longer than 12 months that may or may not affect with (i) no long-term health problems, (ii) long-term health their activity; categorised by their main health problem only. problems, (iii) long-term musculo-skeletal problems, (iv) chest Regional data are not available for the more detailed long-term problems, (v) heart problems, (vi) mental illnesses and (vii) learning health problem categories due to small sample sizes. difficulties in each (A) region and (B) country of the UK in (1) 2006 and (2) 2009. (321043) As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject Estimates of economic activity are available from the Labour to a margin of uncertainty. Force Survey (LFS). In accordance with the International Labour

Economic activity rate of people1 who have a long-term health problem2—Region of UK, not seasonally adjusted, three months ending December each year Percentage 2006 2009 Long-term health problem No long-term health problem Long-term health No long-term health problem problem Men Women Men Women Men Women Men Women

United Kingdom 67 61 90 79 68 62 89 79

NorthEast6154907962628880 North West 62 59 88 79 65 58 89 78 Yorkshire and 67 60 91 79 67 63 88 79 Humberside East Midlands 72 67 91 81 70 64 90 82 West Midlands 66 60 90 78 69 63 88 77 East 73 65 91 79 76 67 90 81 London 54 47 92 76 51 49 92 76 South East 77 69 91 80 74 68 91 81 South West 71 65 91 82 69 70 89 82

England7265918172679081 Wales 58 51 89 80 59 55 86 80 Scotland 67 58 91 83 65 61 90 82 Northern Ireland 50 44 87 74 49 41 86 74 1 Applies to all people of working age (men aged 16 to 64 and women aged 16 to 59). 2 Health problem lasting more man 12 months that may or may not limit activity. Source: ONS Labour Force Survey. Economic activity rate of people1 by main long-term health problem2—United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted, three months ending December each year Percentage 2006 2009 Men Women Men Women

Musculoskeletal 69 60 69 62 Chest or breathing problems 81 73 82 74 Heart problems 75 71 76 75 Mental illness 23 22 25 28 Learning difficulties 48 39 47 39 1 Applies to all people of working age (men aged 16 to 64 and women aged 16 to 59). 2 Health problem lasting more than 12 months that may or may not limit activity. Source: ONS Labour Force Survey.

Employment: Disabled Future Jobs Fund

Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what information her Department holds Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work on the number of people with (a) language difficulties, and Pensions (1) how many Future Jobs Fund job (b) disabilities and (c) learning difficulties who have vacancies had been submitted to Jobcentre Plus on the been in employment in Montgomeryshire at any one latest date for which figures are available; [320300] time since 2005; and if she will make a statement. [322435] (2) how many Future Jobs Fund job vacancies had been uploaded to the Jobcentre Plus computer system Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is not on the latest date for which figures are available; available. [320301] 977W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 978W

(3) how many and what proportion of Future Jobs Helen Goodman: Income-related benefits help provide Fund vacancies had remained unfilled after four weeks a secure source of income for people out of work or on the latest date for which figures are available. receiving low income in work. Although most people [320302] are better off in work due to the introduction of the national minimum wage and tax credits, and the availability Jim Knight: The Department for Work and Pensions of housing benefit and council tax benefit when in is currently assessing the quality of new sources of work, benefit entitlement can be reduced as their income information on the Future Jobs Fund. The Department from working increases. This is known as the benefit expects to publish official statistics in spring 2010. taper. The combined taper rate that an individual faces is known as the marginal deduction rate (MDR) and reflects the proportion of any extra pound earned that Future Jobs Fund: Tyne and Wear is lost through increased taxes and national insurance and reduced benefits or tax credits. Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The level of the housing benefit taper targets support and Pensions how much funding was allocated to Tyne at those most in need, by ensuring that those with very and Wear City Region under the Future Jobs Fund on low income receive help with their living and housing 29 July 2009; and how much of that funding had been costs, whilst those with higher incomes become independent spent on each project and programme on the latest date of benefit and maximising incentives to increase their for which figures are available. [322240] earnings. Reducing the taper would be expensive and increase the level of income required to become entirely Jim Knight: The information cannot be provided due independent of benefit. We need to ensure that the to its commercially sensitive nature. taper in housing benefit continues to balance affordability with targeting support to those on lower income. Housing Benefit Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent assessment she has made of Mr. Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the operation of local housing allowance; and if she and Pensions what estimate she has made of the effect will make a statement. [322403] on the income of recipients of housing benefit who are moving into work of her Department’s proposals to Helen Goodman: The local housing allowance was introduce fixed payment awards. [322395] rolled out from 7 April 2008 and is a more transparent way of calculating the rent element of housing benefit Helen Goodman: Our policies over the past 12 years for people living in the deregulated private rented sector have made a real difference in providing increased support who make a new claim for housing benefit or for to help people on benefits move into work. The introduction existing customers who change address. of the national minimum wage and tax credits have The Department has committed to completing a meant that almost everyone is better off in work than review of the local housing allowance scheme over a on benefits. two-year period from the commencement of its roll-out However, for some, the financial gains are not clear in April 2008. The aim of the review is to monitor the enough. The reduction in housing benefit when income impact of the local housing allowance at a national increases can discourage people from moving into work level, against the original local housing allowance policy even when they are financially better-off by doing so. objectives. Many are also concerned about the effect on their benefit income where their income changes and worry Jobcentre Plus about reporting changes to earnings On 15 December 2009 we launched the consultation Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work document ″Supporting People into Work: The next and Pensions what plans she has to send to Jobcentre stage of Housing Benefit Reform″ which examines how Plus outreach advisers into selected areas of high housing benefit might play a part in encouraging people unemployment; what areas will be selected; and what to work. We consulted on a specific proposal to set fixed the budget is for this plan. [322359] awards of housing benefit for six months which would be unaffected by increases in income and earnings during Jim Knight [holding answer 15 March 2010]: The that time. This would remove some of the uncertainty administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the over benefit entitlement that comes with going back to chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra Singh. I have work. asked him to provide the hon. Member with the information The consultation concluded on 22 February 2010. We requested. are considering the responses that we received as well as Letter from Darra Singh: the details of how we will take our proposals forward. The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question The level of help that we will provide will depend on asking what plans she has to send Jobcentre Plus outreach advisers final design decisions. We will set out these decisions in into selected areas of high unemployment; what areas will be due course. selected; and what the budget is for this plan. This is something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. Mr. Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jobcentre Plus announced in the White Paper “Building Britain’s and Pensions what consideration she has given to Recovery: Achieving Full Employment” that it would be extending reducing the marginal deduction rates in respect of an initiative that has been running in three Districts (Merseyside, housing benefit claimants moving into work. [322396] South London and South Tyne & Wear Valley) from June 2010. 979W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 980W

Jobcentre Plus Advisers will work in the community to deliver Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member an employment-focused outreach service specifically targeting with the information requested. high-density social housing estates and communities with high concentrations of worklessness. Letter from Darra Singh: A key theme will be to work with a range of partners and The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has asked me to agencies to deliver a holistic approach to tackle deep-rooted, reply to your question asking how many complaints of racism generational worklessness concentrated on social housing estates. have been made by customers against other Jobcentre Plus staff This is an extension of our existing partnership activity to do in each of the last five years, broken down by smallest geographical more to target entrenched worklessness in these deprived areas/estates area for which information is available. This is something which and helping to prevent these communities falling further behind falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive as a result of the economic downturn. of Jobcentre Plus. The Department of Work and Pensions Parliamentary Under I can only provide data to regional level—to provide the data Secretary, Helen Goodman, announced on Tuesday 9th March to district level would be of disproportionate cost to Jobcentre which areas have been selected for this community outreach Plus and risk individuals being exposed. (please see table below). The cost for this activity is £12m a year. This project is in addition to Jobcentre Plus’ wide range of Complaints received by Jobcentre Plus include those made other outreach activity that already sees advisers operating from about Jobcentre Plus, which include an element of complaint over 800 locations away from Jobcentres on a regular basis. about other parts of government—these are included in the figures. I hope you find this information helpful. In addition, there are occasions when the Chief Executive Jobcentre Plus: Racism Office of Jobcentre Plus receives some complaints, but these are not broken down by region and are categorised as “discrimination”— Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work therefore the figures below do not include these complaints. and Pensions how many complaints of racism have Every working day Jobcentre Plus conducts 50,000 adviser been made by customers against other Jobcentre Plus interviews, processes over 20,000 new benefit claims and its staff in each of the last five years, broken down by the Contact Centres receive over 113,000 calls. The number of complaints smallest geographical area for which information is of racism from customers against Jobcentre Plus staff is very low available; and if she will make a statement. [316598] in the context of the number of interactions between Jobcentre Plus and our customers. However, Jobcentre Plus takes all complaints Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a about racism very seriously. matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra Please see below the data as described:

Complaints related to racism and ethnicity Region 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 to date

EastMidlands63346 EastofEngland38607 London 18 29 26 11 9 NorthEast13793 North West 9 11 6 6 0 Scotland 58551 South East 7 8 11 4 6 South West 4 10 10 6 6 Wales 3 11 8 10 6 West Midlands 4 10 16 6 9 Yorkshire and Humber 47893 Not assigned to a region 19372 National total 65 117 109 77 58 Source: Jobcentre Plus Management Information.

The data in the table refers to complaints and not proven cases National Employment Savings Trust of racism. All staff are required to adhere to the Department for Work Mr. Waterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Standards of Behaviour which states that: and Pensions what mechanism is in place to ensure the value for money of administrative services in respect of “The Department’s reputation depends on the quality of service the National Employment Savings Trust when provided and the way in which our employees conduct themselves. This includes treating all customers sympathetically and in a way engaging with a single supplier. [321841] that complies with the Diversity and Equality Policy.” Angela Eagle: The procurement process for this contract The Diversity and Equality policy makes it clear that discrimination was governed by Public Procurement Rules and DWP on the grounds of race will not be tolerated and all complaints Procurement Policy, which aim to achieve value for that a member of staff have behaved inappropriately when dealing money. with a customer are thoroughly investigated. Whenever a member of staff is found to have breached the Department for Work and Throughout procurement, Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. (TCS) progressively demonstrated they were a Pensions Standards of Behaviour, then they will be dealt with in strong bidder and this was confirmed by their final bid. accordance with our HR policies. There is now a contract in place to ensure value for I hope this information is helpful. money. 981W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 982W

New Deal for Young People Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is not available. Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people have (a) been Social Security Benefits: Mentally Ill mandated to participate and (b) participated in the New Deal for Young People in each year since 2005. Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for [322860] Work and Pensions how many people were in receipt of (a) incapacity benefit and (b) other out-of-work Jim Knight: The available information can be found benefits as a result of mental health conditions in each in the following table. year since 1997. [320824] The New Deal for Young People is a mandatory Jonathan Shaw: As the single biggest cause of both programme for jobseeker’s allowance customers who sickness absence and claims for ill health benefits, mental have been claiming for six months. However, customers health is a key challenge for the Department and for can volunteer for early entry to NDYP in certain Government more widely. To address this challenge, we circumstances. must support people with existing mental health conditions to find, keep or return to a job. New Deal for Young People—starters (spells) early entrant indicator time series by year of starting the New Deal for GB Our employment programmes are designed to be Time series- tailored for the employment needs of individual customers year of Normal regardless of the nature of their health condition or starting Total Early entrant entrant disability. Our recent mental health and employment publications outline practical actions to improve well-being 2005 158,940 32,600 126,340 at work for everyone and to deliver better employment 2006 182,510 29,560 152,950 results for people who have mental health conditions. 2007 174,690 31,830 142,860 2008 168,930 36,880 132,050 The available information is in the table. 2009 207,930 38,430 169,500 The number of incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance Notes: claimants, with a main disabling condition of a mental and behaviour 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest ten. Some additional disclosure disorder—Great Britain and abroad control has also been applied. 2. The latest New Deal figures will be affected by the introduction of At August each year Mental and behavioural disorders the new Jobseekers Regime and Flexible New Deal (gradual 1997 751,500 implementation started from April 2009). 3. Early entrant indicator—early entrants are estimated to be those 1998 794,100 participants who join New Deal for Young People before reaching six 1999 837,180 months unemployed. 2000 888,420 4. Time Series—year of starting is the calendar year of starting New 2001 947,240 Deal. The New Deal for Young People pilots began in January 1998 and full national roll-out occurred in April 1998. Latest data are to 2002 995,330 November 2009. 2003 1,036,950 Source 2004 1,074,980 Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate 2005 1,089,150 Social Security Benefits: British Nationals Abroad 2006 1,097,480 2007 1,109,290 2008 1,105,170 Mr. Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and 2009 989,610 Pensions when she expects her Department to Notes: recommence the payment of re-instated exportable 1. Figures for 1997 and 1998 have been derived by applying 5 per cent. sickness benefits and back-dated payments due to UK proportions to 100 per cent. Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study citizens now resident in other EU member states and in totals and rounded to the nearest hundred. Switzerland. [322897] 2. Figures from August 1999 onwards have been rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Causes of incapacity are based on the International Classification Jonathan Shaw: Benefits cannot be reinstated of Diseases, 10th Revision, published by the World Health Organisation. automatically without further information from the To qualify for incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance, claimants have to undertake a medical assessment of incapacity for work which affected customers. The Pension, Disability and Carers is called the personal capability assessment. Therefore, the medical Service (PDCS) will start writing to all affected customers condition recorded on incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance by the end of March 2010. On receipt of the required claim form does not itself confer entitlement to incapacity benefits, so information, claims for reinstatement will be processed for example, the decision for a customer claiming incapacity benefit as quickly as possible. on grounds of a mental and behavioural disorder would be based on their ability to carry out the range of activities in the personal capability assessment. Social Security Benefits: Disabled 4. Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new claims from 27 October 2008 and data by medical condition are not yet Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work available for employment and support allowance claims. and Pensions what estimate she has made of the Source: number of applications for (a) attendance allowance August 1997 and August 1998: Department for Work Information Directorate, Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 5 per cent. data. and (b) disability living allowance which will be August 1999 onwards: Department for Work and Pensions Information approved under special rules in each of the next five Directorate, Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100 per cent years. [322180] data. 983W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 984W

Written Questions: Government Responses The solicitation or acceptance by a public official, directly or indirectly, of an undue advantage, for the official himself or herself or another person or entity, in order that the official act or Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work refrain from acting in the exercise of his or her official duties”. and Pensions when she plans to answer question (a) 304402, (b) 304401, (c) 304400, (d) 304393 and (e) HMG officials based in Kabul and Lashkar Gah 304403, on Jobcentre Plus, tabled on 1 December 2009; include Governance and Rule of Law advisors, who are when she plans to answer question (i) 304392, (ii) 304397, able to identify and advise on how to tackle corruption. (iii) 304391, (iv) 304390, (v) 304388, and (vi) 304377 on The UK Government also provide annual guidance to the Future Jobs Fund tabled on 1 December 2009; and all embassies and overseas offices on reporting suspected when she plans to answer question (A) 304399, (B) corruption. 304398 and (C) 304381, on the Flexible New Deal, In recognition of the importance the UK Government tabled on 1 December 2009. [317695] places on dealing with corruption, both military and MOD civilian staff based in Afghanistan receive appropriate Jim Knight: The hon. Member’s questions have been training to recognise and report corruption in their answered as follows: functional areas. (a) 304402 on 12 March 2010, Official Report, column 507W; Furthermore, all MOD civilian staff, including those (b) 304401 on 13 March 2010, Official Report, column 507W; based in Afghanistan, adhere to the Civil Service Code (c) 304400 on 14 March 2010, Official Report, column 507W; and its principles of integrity, honesty, objectivity, impartiality and political impartiality. The importance (d) 304393 on 25 February 2010, Official Report, column 740W; of dealing with corruption is also outlined in UK (e) 304403 on 14 March 2010, Official Report, column 507W; Military Doctrine, and included in exercises for military (i) 304392 on 2 March 2010, Official Report, column 1029W; units prior to deployment. (ii) 304397 on 24 February 2010, Official Report, column 570W; (iii) 304391 on 2 March 2010, Official Report, column 1029W; Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (iv) 304390 on 12 March 2010, Official Report, columns 505-506W; what recent assessment he has made of the merits of the (v) 304388 on 2 March 2010, Official Report, column 1029W; replacement of certain uniformed personnel in Afghanistan (vi) 304377 on 24 February 2010, Official Report, column 570W; by (a) contractors and (b) civilians; and what estimate (A) 304399 on 23 February 2010, Official Report, column 463W; he has made of the cost to the public purse of the replacement of those personnel by each type of staff. (B) 304398 on 23 February 2010, Official Report, column 463W; [321249] (C) 304381 on 24 February 2010, Official Report, column 572W.

Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Contractors and civil servants Work and Pensions when she expects to answer carry out a wide range of roles in Afghanistan, including Question 311758 tabled on 14 January 2010 by the hon. at the main hospital in Camp Bastion and in catering posts in main operating bases. They are also employed Member for Hertsmere. [320790] in specialist roles such as Financial and Commercial Officers. Civil servants and contractors are an important Jim Knight: I replied to the hon. Member’s question resource on operations, and are principally used to on 15 March 2010, Official Report, column 601-2W. complement military capacity and capability.Their support to operations is highly valued. Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when she expects to answer questions Force and manning levels are kept under continual (a) 316961 and (b) 316962, tabled on 8 February 2010 review, and if it is more appropriate to employ a contractor by the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire. or civilian in theatre than a member of the armed forces [320939] then full consideration is given. However, estimating the cost to the public purse of the replacement of military personnel by contractors or civil servants is difficult due Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 5 February 2010]: I to significant differences in their terms and conditions have replied to the hon. Member’s questions as follows: of employment. This information could be provided 316961 on 15 March 2010, Official Report, columns 600- only at disproportionate cost. 01W and 316962 on 16 March 2010, Official Report, columns 804-05W. Armed Forces: Housing DEFENCE Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) when the Armed Forces Home Ownership Scheme whether (a) military and (b) civilian staff based in pilot was established; and for how long it is intended to Afghanistan receive training on the recognition and run; [321765] reporting of suspected corruption. [319914] (2) how much the Armed Forces Home Ownership Scheme has provided to members of the armed forces Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Both the UK and Afghan in each year since its inception; and how many Governments are party to the United Nations Convention members of the armed forces have participated in the Against Corruption, which defines corruption as: scheme in each of those years; [321766] “The promise, offering or giving to a public official, directly or indirectly, of an undue advantage, for the official himself or (3) when he expects to make a decision about the herself or another person or entity, in order that the official act or future of the pilot for the Armed Forces Home refrain from acting in the exercise of his or her official duties; Ownership Scheme. [321768] 985W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 986W

Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 11 March 2010]: Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 8 March 2010]: The Armed Forces Ownership Scheme Pilot was launched Senior officers of the armed forces are generally tasked on 26 January 2010. It will run until spring 2013. Ahead with a wide range of responsibility which requires them of that, the Department’s Strategic Defence Review will to travel to meetings as well as visits to exercise areas look at the issue of terms and conditions of service. and deployment theatres. Service accommodation is to This initiative forms part of the overall commitment be used where it is available but this is not always the to facilitate access to affordable homes for our armed case and as a result overnight accommodation expenses forces, set out in ‘The Nation’s Commitment to the will be incurred. Armed Forces’, published in July 2008 (The Nation’s In order to reduce expenditure, greater use is being Commitment: Cross-Government Support to our Armed made of video and telephone conferencing. When travel Forces, their Families and Veterans, CM7424). is necessary, all personnel are strongly encouraged to The Ministry of Defence has been working with maximise the value of their time away by incorporating Communities and Local Government and the Homes several meetings, thus avoiding the need to travel to the and Communities Agency (HCA) to develop a pilot, same location on separate occasions. If travelling by bespoke, shared equity scheme for the armed forces. road, all practical measures are to be taken to allow the The HCA have engaged the Swaythling Housing Society sharing of transport. Furthermore, when arranging to administer the scheme and they have reported a high meetings, due consideration is to be made to holding number of inquiries regarding it, but due to its infancy the meeting at a time that will allow attendees to return no house purchase has yet been completed. to their home units and avoid the need to stay overnight.

Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence The following table provides information on expenditure what the total cost to his Department was of creating, reimbursed through the Joint Personnel Administration publishing and distributing the booklet, Transforming expenses system for those approximate 500 officers Military Accommodation; how many such booklets holding the rank of brigadier and equivalent and above have been printed; to which (a) individuals and (b) for the 12 month period ending 28 February 2010. organisations they were circulated; and for what reasons the booklet was published. [322855] Serial Expense type £ 1 Nightly Subsistence 686,000 Mr. Kevan Jones: I will write to the hon. Member. Allowance1 2 Motor Mileage Allowance 109,000 3 Incidental Expenses— 44,000 Armed Forces: Northern Ireland Overseas2 4 Taxi Fare 40,000 Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for 5 Rail Fare 31,000 Defence what the cost of providing military security in 6 Incidental Expenses— 21,000 2 Northern Ireland was in (a) 1997 and (b) the most United Kingdom recent year for which figures are available (i) in cash 7 Car Parking 12,000 terms, (ii) in current prices and (iii) as a percentage of 8 Air Fares 12,000 the UK’s total defence expenditure. [322586] 9 Day Subsistence—Overseas 8,000 10 Day Subsistence—United 8,000 Bill Rammell: For the purposes of answering this Kingdom question the cost of providing military security has 11 Hire Car Fuel Costs 7,000 been interpreted to mean the costs of maintaining a 12 Excess Fares 7,000 military presence in the Province. 13 Home to Duty Vehicle 7,000 The data requested is shown in the following table: Allowance 14 Get You Home Overseas 6,000 Cash outturn Current prices Percentage of Allowance (£ million) (£ million) total outturn 15 Educational Psychologists 5,000 Report 1997-98 508 657 12.3 16 Ferry Charges 5,000 2008-09 131 131 20.4 1 17 Foreign Currency Exchange 4,000 Departmental outturn for 1997-98—£21.517 million. Costs 2 Departmental outturn for 2008-09—£28.059 million. 18 Underground Fares 3,000 The reduction in the outturn is illustrative of the 19 Passport/Visa Fees 3,000 reduction in the military presence in Northern Ireland. 20 Home to Duty Cycle 3,000 Allowance 1 Nightly Subsistence Allowance is the cost of bed and breakfast and Armed Forces: Expenses up to a further two meals in a 24 hour period. 2 Incidental Expenses are designed to cover necessary personal incidental expenses actually incurred when an overnight absence in a hotel or Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for temporary service single accommodation is occupied. This includes, Defence what the 20 highest of reimbursable expenses for example, the cost of a telephone call. amounts were claimed by members of the armed forces with a rank of brigadier or equivalent and above in the This table only includes reimbursed expenditure and last 12 months; and what the expenses were for in each does not include payment for services made directly by case. [320810] the Department. 987W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 988W

Defence: Expenditure TRANSPORT Public Transport: Rural Access Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will provide the annual figures for defence 14. Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Minister of expenditure that supports his Department’s statement State, Department for Transport what recent studies his that such expenditure has increased by 10 per cent. in Department has undertaken on access to public real terms since 1997. [321707] transport for people living in rural areas. [322765] Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The statement that the Department has routinely made in terms of the real term increase Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport has since 1997 is that: commissioned studies in northern England, as part of Delivering a Sustainable Transport System, which include “The Defence budget has had the longest period of sustained rural aspects. We have funded a project with the real growth since the 1980s. It is now over 10 per cent more in real terms than in 1997.” Improvement and Development Agency to produce and publish guidance on accessible rural transport. We Due to changes in the accountancy methods over this also work closely with the Commission for Rural period, the only way to compare historic Defence budgets Communities, and the Department for Environment, is through ‘Near Cash’, which includes those elements Food and Rural Affairs, who publish a number of measured on an accruals basis that turn into cash studies each year. transactions quickly.For example: pay, current procurement, and income from sales. The MOD’s Near Cash budget Public Transport Usage is direct RDEL added to capital DEL. The Near Cash Defence budget in 1997-98 was 15. Peter Luff: To ask the Minister of State, £21.80 billion, which equates to a real terms value of Department for Transport what steps he is taking to £28.37 billion at 2008-09 prices using the HM Treasury encourage motorists to make greater use of public GDP deflator. For the year 2009-10, the Near Cash transport; and if he will make a statement. [322766] Defence budget is £31.92 billion, which equates to a real term value of £31.30 billion. This represents a 10.31 per Mr. Khan: Record levels of investment in the public cent. increase since 1997. transport networks by the Department for Transport In addition, for the year 2010-11 the planned Near have led to substantial increases in its usage: over £15 billion Cash Defence budget is £33.33 billion, which will equate has been committed to support the railways between to a real term value of £31.93 billion, an increase of 2009 and 2014; we have increased public expenditure on 12.63 per cent. since 1997. buses in England to £2.6 billion a year, double the level of support a decade ago; and, around £1 billion is being Actual figures are used in the calculation of percentages. spent on concessionary travel every year. This investment Defence: Scotland has resulted in more journeys now being made on the railways than at any time since the 1940s; we are starting to see year-on-year increases in bus patronage—the first Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for time since the 1950s; and, around 11 million people are Defence who in his Department (a) was consulted on benefiting from the greater freedom and independence and (b) agreed the Scotland Office Background Paper, brought through concessionary fares. Scotland and Defence. [321704] Roadworks Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 11 March 2010]: Officials in the Ministry of Defence were consulted on, 16. Simon Hughes: To ask the Minister of State, and I agreed, the Scotland Office Background Paper, Department for Transport whether his Department has based upon advice from those MOD officials. had recent discussions with utility companies on the effects of roadworks on traffic flow on highways. Princess Royal Barracks [322767]

Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Khan: Street works by utility companies and Defence if he will provide copies of the report of others contribute to traffic congestion that costs the Devon and Cornwall police on the handling by Surrey economy £4.2 billion a year. The Government are Police of the deaths of young recruits at Deepcut Army committed to reducing the impact of street works on Barracks to the parents of the deceased; and if he will traffic and pedestrian flows, and I have consistently make a statement. [320831] made clear to the utility companies that this level of impact is simply not acceptable. Bill Rammell: No. This is entirely a matter for the police. Kemble to Swindon Line

Territorial Army: Shropshire Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent discussions he has had with Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Network Rail on the re-doubling of the Kemble to Defence how much funding has been allocated to Swindon line. [322762] Sundorne Territorial Army base for 2010-11. [322274] Chris Mole: Finance totalling £2.6 million has been Bill Rammell: Budgets for financial year 2010-11 have allocated from the south-west region, the Department yet to be finalised for this site. for Transport and the Welsh Assembly Government to 989W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 990W complete a detailed study into the redoubling of the Paul Clark: The Department for Transport does not 13 mile section of line between Swindon and Kemble. intend to make a formal response to the report on The This has led to an indicative price of £52.4 million from Potential for Cycle Helmets to Prevent Injury. The Network Rail. Department publishes numerous reports throughout the year and it would not be practical to make a formal Bus Services: Concessions response for each report’s publication. As with all research carried out for the Department, we will take account of Greg Mulholland: To ask the Minister of State, its findings in considering our policies. Department for Transport how much the Government have spent on concessionary bus travel for pensioners Departmental Domestic Visits in Leeds North West constituency in each year since the scheme was introduced. [322701] Andrew Selous: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Khan: Administration of the concessionary travel Department for Transport which constituencies each scheme in Leeds North West is carried out by West Minister in his Department visited in 2009; and on Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive. The Government what date each such visit took place. [322384] provide funding for concessionary travel through two channels: Formula Grant to Leeds city council and Chris Mole [holding answer 15 March 2010]: The special grant to West Yorkshire Integrated Transport information requested has been placed in the Libraries Authority (WYITA). of the House. Before 1 April 2008, funding for the statutory minimum bus concession was provided exclusively through the formula grant system. Formula grant is an unhypothecated Departmental ICT block grant and as such it is not possible to identify how much formula grant has been allocated to local authorities Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, for any particular service, such as concessionary travel Department for Transport what information technology for older and disabled people. projects initiated by (a) his Department and (b) its When the statutory minimum concession increased agencies were cancelled prior to completion in the last from half-fare to free fare in April 2006, additional 12 months; and what the cost of each such project was funding of £350 million in 2006-07 and £367.5 million to the public purse. [320421] in 2007-08 was added to Formula Grant to fund the additional burden to local authorities. Chris Mole: The following are the only major Department From April 2008, the Department for Transport has for Transport projects known to be cancelled in the last provided additional special grant funding to local authorities 12 months: to cover the extra costs of providing England-wide ISYS, an Information Management System costing £110,333, travel, of which WYITA received £8,666,725 in 2008-09 proved to be unsuitable as the software response times were too and £8,871,129 in 2009-10. The Department for slow. However, this project helped us to define our requirements Communities and Local Government continues to provide and feed into the wider initiative on records management. the bulk of concessionary travel funding to local authorities TVTTT, a project for Tracking Vehicles Through the Trade, through Formula Grant. cost £7,800,000 and was cancelled as another project was found The following table shows how much was spent on to be better and less costly. Agreement was made with the concessionary travel by West Yorkshire Integrated Transport National Audit Office that we would assess how much of the Authority since 2000, when the Government first introduced work undertaken was reusable, which will be done in due course. a statutory minimum bus concession. These figures VINI, a project for Northern Ireland Vehicle Integration Project include spending on both older and disabled travel cost £7,500,000, but changes in vehicle excise duty led to the need concessions and include any discretionary enhancements to concentrate on other DVLA systems. Much of the analysis work remains valid and may be resurrected in future using some offered: of the existing work. West Yorkshire In each of these cases all efforts are being made to use £ million both the experience gained, and the work already carried 2000-01 21,712 out, in future projects. 2001-02 23,689 2002-03 21,622 Departmental Information Officers 2003-04 21,424 2004-05 21,985 Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2005-06 20,678 for Transport pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member 2006-07 39,895 for Ruislip-Northwood of 9 February 2010, Official 2007-08 42,177 Report, columns 844-45W,on departmental information 2008-09 45,115 officers, what the titles were of each of the embedded Cycling: Helmets communicators in each of the agencies listed; and on what date each such position was established. [320899] Mr. Bone: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport whether he plans to make a formal response Chris Mole: The titles of the roles of the embedded to the report commissioned from the Transport Research communicators for each of the Department’s executive Laboratory on the potential for cycle helmets to prevent agencies, together with the date each position was created injury. [322823] is set out in the following table. 991W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 992W

Number Title of embedded communicator Date role(s) created

Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency 1 Internal Contact Centre Group Manager 1 October 2009 1 The Richard Ley Development Centre Marketing and Events Manager 1 June 2004 1 Marketing Account Manager for Personalised Registrations 1 April 2009 1 Marketing Support Manager for Personalised Registrations 1 October 2008 1 Auction and Events Manager for Personalised Registrations 1 November 2007 1 Marketing Account Manager for Electronic Vehicle Licensing 1 March 2008 1 Marketing Officer for Electronic Vehicle Licensing 1 November 2007 1 Drivers Marketing Account Manager for On-line activities 1 September 2008 1 Drivers Marketing Manager for On-line activities 1 March 2009 1 Data Analyst Team Leader for DVLA Marketing 1 March 2009 1 Drivers Marketing Support for On-line activities 1 March 2009 1 Internal Human Resources Communications Manager 1 April 2007 1 Internal Vehicle Customer Services Communications Manager including on-line website 1 August 2007 1 Internal Strategic Management Communications Consultant Local Services Network 1 August 2008 0.5 Communications Manager for Enforcement of Vehicle Excise Duty 1 August 2008 1 Internal Local Services Network Communications Officer 1 August 2008 2 Internal Local Services Network Communications Support 1 August 2008

Highways Agency 1 Communications Manager—Health and Safety 7 December 2009

Maritime and Coastguard Agency 0.5 UK Ship Register Specialist Co-ordinator Marketing February 2007 0.25 Deputy Manager—Seafarer Health and Safety Marketing October 2009

In the answer to the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood Departmental Pay (Mr. Hurd) of 9 February 2010, a clerical error led to the number of embedded communicators for the Vehicle Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) being reported Department for Transport how much was paid in as three. There are no embedded communicators in reimbursable expenses to special advisers in his VOSA. Department in each of the last five years. [320483]

Departmental Legal Costs Chris Mole: As temporary civil servants, special advisers undertake their duties in line with the requirements of Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department the civil service code, civil service management code, for Transport how much his Department and its and the code of conduct for special advisers, which predecessors have spent in (a) legal fees and (b) includes rules on the reimbursement of expenses incurred compensation on legal cases concerning remuneration when carrying out departmental business. of its employees in each of the last 10 years. [322064] The reimbursable expenses paid to special advisers in the Department for Transport over the past five years is Chris Mole: The Department for Transport was formed as follows: in May 2002. Information on the costs and compensation in specific types of legal cases is not held centrally either Financial year Total expenses reimbursed (£) by the Department or its agencies and could not be 2005-06 184.60 collated without incurring disproportionate cost. 2006-07 110.50 2007-08 514.10 Departmental Marketing 2008-09 755.56 2009-101 1,957.77 1 Data correct for the financial year up to and including 15 March 2010. Mr. Syms: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member Departmental Surveys for Ruislip Northwood of 5 January 2010, Official Report, column 103W,on departmental marketing, how Mr. Grieve: To ask the Minister of State, Department much his Department and agencies have spent on for Transport if he will place in the Library a copy of advertising, marketing, public relations and publicity in the benchmark results of the Civil Service People relation to (a) Real Help Now and (b) Building Britain’s Survey for his Department and its agencies. [322577] Future themed campaigns to date. [320452] Chris Mole: The 2009 People Survey results for the Chris Mole: The Department for Transport and its Department for Transport are now available in the Executive agencies have not incurred any expenditure in Libraries of the House. These results are also available relation to “Real Help Now” and “Building Britain’s on the Department of Transport website: Future” themed campaigns to date. http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/staff/staff-survey09 993W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 994W

High Speed Two: Freedom of Information Railways: Construction

Mr. Lidington: To ask the Minister of State, Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department for Transport if he will direct High Speed for Transport what recent representations he has received Two Ltd. to respond to requests for information from from city councils on the effect on regional economies members of the public as if it were a public authority of a high-speed rail network. [322752] specified under the Freedom of Information Act 2000; and if he will make a statement. [322930] Mr. Khan: Over the past year, the Department for Chris Mole: High Speed Two Ltd. is a “public authority” Transport has received representations regarding the as defined by the Freedom of Information Act 2000, regional economic effects of high speed rail in the UK and therefore responds to requests for information by from city councils, including Birmingham, Manchester, members of the public. Leeds, Sheffield and the Association of North East Councils. Northern Rail: Rolling Stock Mr. Lidington: To ask the Minister of State, Jim Dobbin: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department for Transport whether he has had for Transport what timetable he has set for announcing discussions with the Department for Communities and his plans for the provision of extra carriages for Northern Local Government on the likely effects of his preferred Rail, as referred to in the 2007 Rail White Paper. route for High Speed Two on the Government’s plans [322364] for housing and employment in Aylesbury; and if he will make a statement. [322931] Chris Mole: Discussions are taking place with Northern Rail to provide additional vehicles. The Department for Chris Mole: My right hon. and noble Friend, the Transport has already agreed some initial stages with Secretary of State for Transport and my right hon. Northern Rail, whereby 10 diesel vehicles formerly deployed Friend, the Minister of State for Housing, have discussed on the Oldham Loop will be retained in the Northern a range of issues relating to high speed rail. Rail franchise, and Northern Rail will procure a further eight net additional vehicles. These 18 vehicles will be used to lengthen certain train services, principally in Railways: Todmorden Greater Manchester. Further work will continue and further announcements will be made in due course. Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what estimate his Department Parking has made of the cost of re-instating the Todmorden Curve. [322756] Mr. Pelling: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what discretion local authorities have to override the findings of independent parking adjudicators. Chris Mole: According to a Network Rail study carried out on behalf of the promoters, the cost of [322901] re-instating the Todmorden Curve is likely to be in the Mr. Khan: A local authority that has been given the region of £7 million. This is subject to further studies to power to enforce parking under the Traffic Management establish the ground conditions on the line of the preferred Act 2004 must have regard to the Secretary of State’s route for the curve. Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (February 2008). Paragraph 102 of that guidance says: “If an adjudicator allows the appeal s/he may direct the WOMEN AND EQUALITY authority to cancel the Notice to Owner and refund any sum already paid in respect of the penalty charge. The authority must Rape Cases Stern Review comply with this direction without delay.”

Railways: Accidents Julie Morgan: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality what steps she plans to take in response to the John Robertson: To ask the Minister of State, Stern Review on the handling of rape cases. [322780] Department for Transport what steps he is taking to reduce the number of fatal and serious injuries to The Solicitor-General: The Government welcome workers on the highway network; and if he will make a Baroness Stern’s report of her review which recognises statement. [322760] the significant improvements made since 1997, but also identifies where more remains to be done to build on Chris Mole: The Highways Agency published a Road this progress. Worker Safety Strategy last year which includes action plan measures to improve the safety for road workers The Department has published an interim government on the Strategic Road Network. The Government are response and will carefully consider the 23 recommendations now consulting on proposals to revise the Safety Code in the report before publishing a fuller response later of Practice which applies on other roads. The Highways this year. Agency also leads a cross-industry group investigating Rapists must know that they will not get away with it, improvements for road worker safety on high speed whatever the circumstances. They stand a more than roads. one in two chance of conviction. 995W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 996W

Equality and Human Rights Commission Maria Eagle: I have had no discussions with Lord Sugar on women in the workplace since his appointment Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister for Women as the Government’s enterprise champion. However, I and Equality what recent representations she has received have recently met with both the Women’s Enterprise on the recommendations in the Fifteenth Report from Task Force and Lord Davies, the Minister for Trade and the Committee of Public Accounts, on the Equality and Investment to discuss how Government can continue to Human Rights Commission, HC 124. [322784] support female entrepreneurs. The Government responded to the final report of the Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister for Women Women’s Enterprise Task Force in November 2009, and and Equality what recent representations she has received will shortly launch a new strategic framework and action on the recommendations in the Fifteenth Report from plan aimed at realising our vision of fair and family-friendly the Committee of Public Accounts, on the Equality and labour market where everyone has the opportunity to Human Rights Commission, HC 124. [322785] develop their skills and experience.

Ms Harman: I refer the hon. Members to the answer I Politics: Females gave earlier today. Mr. Bone: To ask the Minister for Women and Departmental Internet Equality what recent assessment she has made of the barriers to women’s participation in politics. [322782] Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality how many designs for its (a) internal website Maria Eagle: This Government are committed to and (b) intranet the Government Equalities Office has improving women’s participation in politics. The Speaker’s commissioned since 2005; and what the cost was of Conference, which reported in January, identified a each such design. [321990] number of barriers to women’s participation in politics which include cost, culture of political parties, time Maria Eagle: The GEO does not have an internal pressures, lack of support, as well as discrimination. website or intranet. The Government formally responded to the Speaker’s Conference on 10 March, welcoming their report. Equality and Human Rights Commission: Manpower We have already responded to one of the report’s recommendations by amending the Equality Bill to Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister for Women and introduce a power that will require political parties to Equality with reference to paragraph 20 on page 15 of report on the diversity of their candidate selections. The the Public Accounts Committee report on the Equality scope and nature of the reporting requirement will be and Human Rights Commission, HC 124, what conclusions determined after consultation with political parties and the Commission’s Accounting Officer has reached in others. investigating the reasons behind the continued payment of a former staff member three months after the individual had stopped working for the Commission; and what steps are being taken to recover the payment. [321390] INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Maria Eagle: The EHRC is independent and manages Chile: Earthquakes its own affairs. The EHRC’s Accounting officer has instigated an inquiry into the payment. He will report Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for his findings to the Committee of Public Accounts. International Development what support his Department has given to survivors of the recent Greater Manchester earthquake in Chile. [322624]

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Minister for Women Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International and Equality if she will set out, with statistical information Development (DFID) has contributed £250,000 to the related as directly as possible to Manchester, Gorton Chilean Red Cross for the provision of front line relief constituency, the effects on that constituency of the work. 600 tents were delivered by Royal Air Force flight policies of the Government Equalities Office since its to the relief agency World Vision for distribution to inception. [322135] families made homeless by the earthquake. Departmental Internet Maria Eagle: The Government Equalities Office operates at a strategic level across Government to promote policies which address discrimination. It is not possible to provide Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for statistical information about the effects on Manchester International Development (1) how many people his of the policies and actions of GEO since it was established. Department employs to maintain its social media and networking sites; and at what cost; [322552] Lord Sugar of Clapton (2) how much his Department spent on maintaining its Twitter feed in the latest period for which figures are Mrs. May: To ask the Minister for Women and available; [322556] Equality what discussions she has had with Lord Sugar (3) how much his Department spent on maintaining of Clapton on the subject of women in the workplace its YouTube channel in the latest period for which since his appointment. [310346] figures are available; [322558] 997W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 998W

(4) how much his Department spent on maintaining Developing Countries: Literacy its Flickr channel in the latest period for which figures are available. [322595] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent initiatives his Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Department has funded to improve adult literacy in Development (DFID) has an editorial team of six who developing countries. [322540] maintain the main departmental website. As part of their duties, they all have access to the social media and Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International networking site accounts that have been set up for Development’s (DFID’s) approach to tackling adult DFID, including Twitter, Flickr and YouTube, and take literacy is stated in the recently launched Education part in maintaining them. We do not record work in a Strategy, ‘Learning for All’. The approach is threefold: way that would make it possible to disaggregate the 1. to prioritise quality basic education for all; time spent by individuals on each activity, and therefore are unable to assign specific costs. 2. to support improving the effectiveness of the whole education sector; and Departmental Press Releases 3. where appropriate, to invest in programmes that combine literacy with vocational training, or include a focus on the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for empowerment of marginalised groups. International Development how many press releases An example of DFID’s work in this area is our his Department has issued in the last 12 months. support to the Mahila Samakhya (Women Together) in [322557] India, a government programme to promote gender Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International equality and women’s empowerment, including improving Development (DFID) records the number of press releases literacy and economic opportunities through better access by calendar year. DFID issued 139 press releases in to education. In Yemen, DFID, in participation with 2009. other donors, is also financing a substantial basic education programme which includes support to both primary Departmental Sick Leave and adult basic education.

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many days absence International Development what recent initiatives his through sickness staff in his Department have had in Department has funded to improve child literacy in each month since 1997. [322521] developing countries. [322583] Mr. Michael Foster: We are unable to provide figures of the number of days staff have been absent due to Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International sickness, in each month, without incurring disproportionate Development’s (DFID’s) approach to tackling child costs. literacy is stated in the recently launched Education Strategy, ‘Learning for All.’ The strategy has been placed Departmental Surveys in the Library of the House and can be found at: www.dfid.gov.uk/educationstrategy Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if he will place in the Examples of the work DFID is doing to improve Library a copy of the benchmark results of the Civil child literacy in developing countries includes funding a Service People Survey for his Department. [322568] four year initiative in Tanzania to improve competencies in literacy and numeracy among children aged five to Mr. Michael Foster: The 2009 People Survey results 16 years. The programme will also be conducted in for the Department for International Development (DFID) Uganda and Kenya. are now available in the House Library. These results are also available at Earthquakes: Oxfam www.dfid.gov.uk Departmental Theft Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent discussions he Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for has had with representatives of Oxfam on the International Development what steps his Department earthquakes in (a) Chile and (b) Haiti. [322606] is taking to deter theft from within the Department. [322651] Mr. Michael Foster: Representatives of Oxfam were present at two recent meetings I have had with British Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International relief agencies to discuss the humanitarian response to Development (DFID) takes all thefts seriously and has the earthquake in Haiti. a number of physical security measures in place, including CCTV, to ensure that only authorised persons access Fairtrade Initiative our premises. All staff are regularly reminded that they have responsibility for protecting official assets in their Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for custody and given guidance and facilities for secure International Development how much his Department storage. All thefts are reported to our security section has spent promoting Fair Trade fortnight. [322582] for any breach of security practice. Individuals found to be involved in theft will be Mr. Thomas: The Department for International subject to disciplinary and, where appropriate, criminal Development (DFID) did not spend anything promoting proceedings. Fairtrade Fortnight. DFID’s contribution was that DFID 999W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1000W

Ministers and officials took part in a number of events Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA supports Fresh Start, an and awareness-raising efforts during Fairtrade Fortnight. industry-led initiative to encourage and support new entrants into farming, including those involved in family Haiti: Earthquakes succession, and to help established farmers think about how they can develop their business in the future in the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for light of CAP reform. International Development what support his Fresh Start provides business skills training to people Department has given to survivors of the recent starting out in farming, delivered through a network of earthquake in Haiti. [322625] Fresh Start Academies. Fresh Start is also working on providing a mentoring service for new farmers as well as Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International a matching service linking potential new starters with Development (DFID) has committed £20 million to existing farmers who are retiring or restructuring. support the humanitarian relief effort in Haiti. The funding has helped provide an estimated 380,000 people The Fresh Start Initiative only operates within England. with water, shelter, food and medical care. In addition, relief items delivered by DFID will serve approximately 20,000 families. Animal Welfare Act 2006 International Red Cross Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what education Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for and training resources his Department has made International Development whether he has had recent available to local authorities to assist in the discussions with the Red Cross on its projects which are implementation of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. in receipt of funding from his Department. [322612] [322519]

Mr. Michael Foster: The Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA provided a number of training International Development met with Jakob Kellenberger, sessions for local authority and animal health officers President of the International Committee of the Red before the Act came into force in order that they could Cross (ICRC), during the World Economic Forum familiarise themselves with the new legislation. conference in January. They discussed progress in Haiti following the earthquake and also the situations in Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Department for Batteries: Recycling International Development (DFID) provides funding to ICRC, the International Federation of the Red Cross (IFRC) and the British Red Cross. DFID officials are in Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for regular contact with all three organisations. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent steps he has taken to increase the proportion of Internet batteries which are recycled. [322544]

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lucas: I have been asked to reply. International Development how many people have sent I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on an e-card under his Department’s Be part of the LIFT 19 January 2010, Official Report, column 327W, in initiative. [322581] respect of steps taken to increase the recycling of waste industrial and automotive batteries. Mr. Michael Foster: A total of 114 e-cards have been sent under the LIFT initiative since they, were introduced The Waste Batteries and Accumulators Regulations on 11 February 2010. 2009, referred to in that answer, also contain provisions relating to the collection, treatment and recycling of Snow and Ice: Leave waste portable batteries. From 1 January 2010, large producers of portable batteries have had responsibility Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for for financing the net cost of the separate collection, International Development how many members of his treatment and recycling of waste portable batteries that Department have taken authorised leave consequent on arise in the UK. Such producers must join Battery severe weather in 2010. [322614] Compliance Schemes (BCSs), which discharge their members’ obligations by entering into collection Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International arrangements with distributors/retailers and other economic Development (DFID) does not maintain a central record operators, and finance information campaigns to raise of authorised leave. The requested information cannot awareness. The Government have also carried out a be provided without incurring disproportionate costs. range of communication activities to raise awareness among consumers and businesses of the new ways to recycle waste portable batteries. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS From 1 February 2010, certain distributors/retailers Agriculture of portable batteries have been required to make available collection points on their premises where end-users may Mr. Peter Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for discard waste portable batteries. The regulations set Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his separate collection targets of 25 per cent. by 2012, Department is taking to encourage new entrants into increasing to 40 per cent. by 2016, of waste portable agricultural careers. [322850] batteries arising in the UK. 1001W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1002W

Biomass: Air Pollution zero tolerance of overdue tests, pre-movement and extended use of gamma interferon. In November 2009 the EU Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission formally agreed to the UK’s Eradication Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Plan and to provide funding of up to ¤10 million for he has made of the effect on the environment of emissions 2010, which can be claimed to reimburse costs of TB of (a) black carbon, (b) particulates, (e) methane and testing and compensation for cattle slaughtered. The (d) oxides of nitrogen arising from combustion of funding will be shared between DEFRA and the Welsh B30K biomass in domestic boilers. [322858] and Northern Irish administrations. We are continuing to make significant investment in Jim Fitzpatrick: B30K is a biofuel/kerosene blended vaccines. £20 million will be spent over the next three fuel that could be used for domestic heating to help years on vaccine development. A Badger Vaccine reduce the use of fossil fuels. We understand that the oil Deployment Project will take place in six high incidence industry is conducting trials on the practicality of use areas each of 100km2 (25,000 acres) in England, with of this fuel. However, DEFRA currently holds no vaccination starting in this summer 2010. information on emissions of air quality pollutants from Vigilance, good stockmanship and biosecurity are all this fuel. vital in the fight against animal disease and DEFRA Birds: Disease Control works in partnership with industry to raise awareness of and promote best practice in these areas. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Through DEFRA’s Livestock Market Roadshows, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is key issues focus on Biosecurity measures and Bluetongue. taking to reduce the incidence of avian diseases. This initiative is about livestock owners working closely with their vet or other adviser on setting targets for their [322512] animals’ health and welfare and taking steps to measure, Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA plays a key part in working manage and monitor productivity. with industry to devise and implement policies to protect DEFRA monitors the international disease situation birds, and control avian diseases. Vigilance, good practice and assesses its impact on the risk to the UK and carries on the part of bird keepers and biosecurity are all vital out risk based post import testing to help prevent in the fight against animal disease. The Department disease entering the country spreading. works in partnership with industry to raise awareness of Encouraging and incentivising livestock keepers to and promote best practice in these areas. implement good biosecurity on the ground is also being Biosecurity measures are focused on animal owners taken forward with industry as part of the Responsibility working closely with their vet or other adviser to set and Cost sharing programme of work. targets for their animals’ health and welfare, and take DEFRA provides a subsidised livestock disease diagnosis steps to measure, manage and monitor productivity. and investigation service to farmers through the Veterinary DEFRA monitors the international disease situation Laboratories Agency (VLA). Analysis of the disease and assesses its impact on the risk to the UK. It carries information gathered by the VLA feeds into national out risk-based post import testing to help mitigate the disease surveillance which identifies and assesses new risk of disease entering the country, and to focus on its disease threats, and provides advice on their management. early detection to prevent spread. In the international context, the Department supports proportionate safeguard Cattle: Diseases measures which mitigate the risk of spread of animal disease into and around the EU. Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA also implements appropriate strategies for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for which surveillance for avian diseases in the UK. These are diseases contracted by cattle there is a requirement that often part of European initiatives carried out across the animals be culled. [322727] member states. Encouraging and incentivising bird keepers to implement Jim Fitzpatrick: When cattle are confirmed to have good biosecurity on the ground is also being taken contracted the following diseases the Secretary of State forward with industry as part of the Responsibility and will order slaughter of the infected cattle, (but there are Cost Sharing programme of work. a few limited exceptions where he can exercise his discretion to spare certain cattle): Cattle: Disease Control bovine tuberculosis; contagious bovine pleuro-pneumonia; Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for bovine spongiform encephalopathy; Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his brucellosis; Department is taking to reduce the incidence of enzootic bovine leukosis; diseases in cattle. [322592] foot and mouth disease; Jim Fitzpatrick: The health of cattle is central to lumpy skin disease; DEFRA’s work in protecting livestock, and in controlling rinderpest (otherwise known as cattle plague), and; and eradicating disease. Rift Valley fever. The Government take bovine TB very seriously and In the case of Bluetongue the chief veterinary officer are fully committed to tackling the disease. We have a is likely only to order slaughter of infected cattle (in package of measures in place to reduce further spread particular if they have been imported) in the early and incidence of bovine TB including regular testing, stages of the outbreak. Otherwise the CVO will consider 1003W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1004W all relevant epidemiological circumstances and carry Huw Irranca-Davies: The UK constantly assesses the out benefits and risk analysis before deciding whether risks posed to cetaceans from fisheries through our other control measures would be more appropriate. monitoring programme onboard fishing vessels, undertaken by the Sea Mammal Research Unit (SMRU). We have Cetaceans: Conservation used this project to identify which fisheries areas pose the greatest risk, and have moved the focus of our monitoring in order to investigate those fisheries of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for greatest concern. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what steps his Department is taking against fishing vessels that do The UK is committed to avoiding the by-catch of not comply with the provisions of the Incidental cetaceans wherever possible; we have, in total, spent Catches of Cetaceans in Fisheries (England) Order over £2 million to date since 2000 on a range of measures to understand better, and so reduce, the incidental 2005; [322471] by-catch of cetaceans. (2) how many fishing vessels of 12 metres or more in length are using gillnets or entangling nets in compliance As part of a five-year research contract between with S.I. 2005, No. 17; and what steps his Department is SMRU and DEFRA that ended in 2008, research was taking to increase the level of compliance of such conducted into modifications to fishing gear to reduce the by-catch of small cetaceans. This research produced vessels. [322472] inconclusive results and highlighted the need for more effective deterrents to prevent capture. Huw Irranca-Davies: The UK is committed to enforcing all aspects of Council Regulation 812/2004 and the The focus of our current research and monitoring is provisions of S.I. 2005, No. 17 in order to minimise to identify those fisheries responsible for high levels of cetacean by-catch. cetacean by-catch and to test acoustic deterrents that are effective at preventing cetacean bycatch in these The Marine and Fisheries Agency (MFA) monitors fisheries. compliance through the inspection activities of the Royal Navy Fishery Protection Squadron. In addition, SMRU are extensively testing, on behalf of DEFRA, the MFA conducts training courses for the Fisheries a new, more powerful acoustic deterrent device that we Protection Squadron who undertake boarding at sea. believe will address the problems of safety and effectiveness This has led to increased industry awareness of cetacean encountered with other acoustic deterrent devices, and by-catch issues. significantly reduce the number of cetaceans caught in fishing gear. The use of acoustic deterrent devices, as specified under Council Regulation 812/2004, has been problematic We are committed to finding an acoustic deterrent for all member states. DEFRA funded research, undertaken that is both safe for fishers to use, and effective at by the Sea Mammal Research Unit (SMRU) in partnership deterring cetaceans from fishing gear, and we eagerly with the fishing industry, has identified significant problems await the results of this research, due in April next year. with the acoustic deterrents stipulated in regulation 812 The annual reports the UK submits to the European in terms of safety of use and their effectiveness as Commission under Council Regulation 812/2004 supply deterrents. more detail on all of this work and can be found at: We reported these concerns to the European Commission http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/fisheries/marine/ and have commissioned an extensive research programme conservation/cetaceans.htm#1 to develop effective deterrents that are safe for our Dairy Products: Meat fishers to use. As part of this research, SMRU are currently testing a new, more robust and powerful device. Mr. Peter Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for We eagerly await the report of this research, due in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion April next year. of the UK’s consumption of (a) liquid milk and dairy products and (b) beef and beef products was met by Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for imports in the latest period for which figures are Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what available. [322495] research his Department is undertaking on risks posed by fisheries to porpoises and dolphins in UK waters; Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 16 March 2010]: The [322473] following tables show imports as a percentage of total 1 (2) whether his Department is funding research into new supply for raw liquid milk for processing, main possible methods of mitigating cetacean bycatch; dairy products and beef and beef products in 2008. 1 [322474] Total new supply is used as a proxy for consumption where total new supply is production in the UK, minus exports, plus imports. (3) whether his Department is funding research into To note: some of this new supply will be processed further and alternative fishing technology with the aim of exported (so not consumed in the UK). However, this presents a eliminating cetacean bycatch. [322475] good assessment of imports in relation to UK consumption.

Million litres Thousand tonnes Percentage

Raw liquid milk for processing Total new supply (production+imports-exports) 12,816 — — Total imports (all imports across the Irish border) 49 — — Imports as percentage of supply — — 0.4 1005W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1006W

Million litres Thousand tonnes Percentage

Butter1 Total new supply (production+imports-exports) — 169 — Total imports — 81 — Imports as percentage of supply — — 48

Cheese Total new supply (production+imports-exports) — 720 — Total imports — 422 — Imports as percentage of supply — — 59

Cream Total new supply (production+imports-exports) — 247 — Total imports — 55 — Imports as percentage of supply — — 22

Condensed milk2 Total new supply (production+imports-exports) — 146 — Total imports — 39 — Imports as percentage of supply — — 27 1 Includes butterfat and oil, dehydrated butter and ghee. 2 Includes condensed milk used in the production of chocolate crumb and in the production of sweetened and unsweetened machine skimmed milk. Source: HM Revenue and Customs, DEFRA, RERAD and DARDNI.

Thousand tonnes Percentage

Beef and beef products (carcase weight equivalent) Total new supply for human consumption 1,134 — Total imports 373 — Imports as percentage of supply — 33 Source: Eurostat supply balance sheet for meat.

Departmental Internet Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 9 March 2010, Official Report, column Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for 163W, on the departmental intranet, what the cost was Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many of the website redesign in 2009. [322280] designs for its (a) internal website and (b) intranet his Department has commissioned since 2005; and what Dan Norris: The DEFRA website has undergone a the cost was of each such design. [321989] single redesign since the creation of the Department in 2001. This went live on 17 September 2009 and cost £181,378 (for audience research, web structure analysis, Dan Norris: The requested information is in the following design and accessibility auditing). table. Dogs Designs commissioned Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for since 2005 Cost (£) Comments Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Internet 1 181,378 The external costs for this estimate he has made of the number of pit bull terrier work include audience type dogs in (a) London and (b) England. [322528] research, web structure analysis, design templates and accessibility auditing. Jim Fitzpatrick: Pit bull terrier type dogs are prohibited The redesigned site went in England with ownership of pit bull terrier type dogs live on 17 September allowed only under strict conditions, where a court has 2009. allowed a prohibited type of dog to be registered on the Intranet 1 63,654 The external costs for this Index of Exempted Dogs under the Dangerous Dogs work include audience Act 1991 (as amended 1997). We have made no estimate research, web structure of illegally owned pit bull terrier numbers. However, the analysis and design templates. The redesigned number of live legally owned pit bull terrier type dogs site is due to go live on that are registered on the Index of Exempted Dogs in 22 March 2010. (a) London is 462, and (b) in England (including London) is 800. 1007W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1008W

Environment Protection: Powers of Entry In addition, encouraging and incentivising horse owners/ keepers to implement good biosecurity on the ground is also being taken forward with industry as part of the Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Responsibility and Cost Sharing programme of work. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his Department sought the views of the Home Office in Livestock respect of the new powers of entry provision contained in the Environmental Civil Sanctions (England) Order Mr. Peter Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010; and whether a liberty test was applied when Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent assessing the merits of such powers of entry in respect assessment he has made of the likely effect on the UK’s of (a) Natural England and (b) the Environment (a) food security and (b) environment of (i) decoupling Agency. [322666] and (ii) reduction in livestock numbers. [322852]

Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 16 March 2010]: Jim Fitzpatrick: A market-driven and consumer focused DEFRA consulted the Home Office in respect of the agricultural sector is crucial for European and global power of entry contained in the Environmental Civil food security. Removing the distortive link between Sanctions (England) Order 2010, as required under direct payments and production allows farmers to respond guidance to Departments. The power is for Natural more readily to market requirements and should therefore England only, sufficient to allow the regulator to ascertain have a positive effect on food security. whether the enforcement notices or undertakings available Production data shows that while livestock numbers under the order have been fulfilled. As regards the have fallen slightly in recent years, with decoupling of “liberty test”, all powers of entry are enacted through the common agricultural policy (CAP) support being a legislation and are subject to parliamentary scrutiny. factor in this decline, both the value and volume of meat production has increased through higher yields. Horses: Disease Control The effect of declining animal numbers on production will be partly offset by increases in productivity, such as Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for higher milk yields and lower mortality. Together with Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his productivity changes, market demand by domestic and Department is taking to reduce the incidence of equine overseas consumers will be a major contributor to the diseases. [322593] overall size of UK livestock herds. The extent to which decoupling has led to a reduction Jim Fitzpatrick: The health and welfare of horses is in stocking densities has led to certain environmental of particular importance as the equine industry is a outcomes, including an overall reduction in environmental sizeable and significant component of the national, pressures (such as overgrazing). There are already rural especially rural, economy and community. DEFRA development programmes within pillar II of the CAP plays a key part in working with the industry to devise which are specifically designed to encourage farmers to and implement policies to protect all equines, and to adopt environmentally beneficial land management control equine exotic diseases. Vigilance and good practice practices, and there are early signs that progress is being on the part of horse owners/keepers and biosecurity are made in this area. Such targeted programmes need to be all vital in the fight against animal disease and DEFRA continued and strengthened with reform. works in partnership with industry to raise awareness of Nature Conservation and promote best practice in these areas. DEFRA monitors the international disease situation Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for and assesses its impact on the risk to the UK, and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs who from his carries out risk based post-import testing to help mitigate Department will be representing the Government at the the risk of disease entering the country and to focus on 15th Meeting of the Conference of the Parties on the its early detection to prevent spread. In the international Convention of International Trade in Endangered context, DEFRA supports proportionate safeguard Species of Wild Fauna and Flora in Doha; and if he measures which mitigate the risk of spread of animal will make a statement. [322456] disease into and around the EU. DEFRA is also working towards implementing Huw Irranca-Davies: DEFRA and its agency, Animal appropriate strategies for surveillance for equine diseases Health, jointly act as the Management Authority for in the UK. These are often part of European initiatives the Conference of the Parties to the Convention of carried out across member states. For example, although International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild the likelihood of introduction of African Horse Sickness Fauna (CITES) in the UK. Three policy officials are virus from abroad to the UK via legal trade in horses representing DEFRA at the conference with two officials and other equidae is considered very low, ongoing work from Animal Health’s Wildlife Licensing and Registration to increase national preparedness for an outbreak of Service. Representatives from our designated CITES that disease, should it occur, is well under way through scientific authorities and our enforcement authorities work on a control strategy for the disease, with a view to are also attending. legislation coming into force this summer. This work has also strengthened other elements of preparedness Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for for equine diseases more generally, for example, by Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether he has increasing and deepening joint working between the made a recent estimate of the number of globally sector and Government, and putting in place stronger threatened species present in (a) the UK and (b) the stakeholder engagement mechanisms. UK Overseas Territories. [322611] 1009W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1010W

Huw Irranca-Davies: Based on the International Union Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for for Conservation of Nature Red List of Threatened Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Species 2009, the latest figures we have for threatened reptiles have been imported into the UK in total from species in the UK and the UK Overseas Territories are (a) within and (b) outside the European Union in publicly available on the Joint Nature Conservation each year since 2000. [322476] Committee website at: www.jncc.gov.uk. Full website address: www.jncc.gov.uk/pdf/UKOT_IUCN%20Tables_%202009.pdf Jim Fitzpatrick: The Trade Control and Expert System (TRACES) database, which holds information on imports Noise into the UK, does not distinguish between species listed under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Species (CITES) and species not so listed. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his Department is taking to tackle noise nuisance. [322445] The information available regarding numbers of reptiles is as follows: Jim Fitzpatrick: The Government recognise that the Table 1 shows figures, supplied by the Wildlife Licensing and management of noise nuisance requires a co-ordinated Registration Service in Animal Health (which issues CITES permits), and long term approach that embraces various aspects for imports of live CITES-listed reptiles from non-EU countries. of modern society. This is why DEFRA published the Noise Policy Statement for England this week, setting Table 2 shows all reptiles imported into the UK from within the EU as recorded on TRACES, which does not distinguish out the long-term vision of government noise policy, between CITES-listed and non-listed species. Movement of specimens promoting good health and good quality of life through within the EU does not require CITES permits to be issued, the management of noise, within the context of government therefore no figures for this are kept by the Wildlife Licensing and policy on sustainable development. Registration Service. The application of the policy statement should mean Table 3 shows all reptile species imported into the UK from that noise is properly taken into account at the appropriate outside the EU as recorded on TRACES. time and reinforces the raft of legislation that already exists that gives powers to local authorities to deal with Table 1: Imports of reptiles into the UK from non-EU countries noise complaints. Quantity Pet Travel Scheme 2000 8,161 2001 8,477 2002 8,200 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2003 14,538 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much his 2004 12,889 Department has spent on its Pet Passport scheme in 2005 14,880 each of the last five years. [322542] 2006 25,954 Jim Fitzpatrick: Animal Health (AH), which administers 2007 31,155 the pet travel scheme, does not collect specific financial 2008 35,411 information on the scheme’s operation. This is because 2009 32,043 its officers are allocated to deal with all imports and not 2010 1— just those of pet animals. However, an estimate based Total 191,708 on information available indicates that the cost to AH for one year’s operation of the scheme is £987,187. CITES species listed on Appendix III do not require Costs have remained broadly stable over the last five CITES permits to be issued to enable their import to years. take place. They do however require import notifications This is based on information from the main UK to be made. ports and airports (Heathrow, Manchester, Dover, Harwich, Portsmouth, Southampton) and from the specialist service Table 1A following shows details of reptiles imports centre for imports in Chelmsford. It includes costs for for which Import Notifications were issued (for imports around 60,000 pet passports per year and for the Pets into the UK from non-EU countries). Helpline which fields 850 calls per week, as well as Table 1A enforcement, auditing activity and carrier approvals. Quantity

Reptiles: Smuggling 2000 6,610 2001 660 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2002 1,949 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his 2003 231 Department has evidence that the 2007 ban on 2004 74 importation of wild birds into the EU has had an effect 2005 1,273 on the number of reptiles imported into the EU. 2006 252 [322455] 2007 130 2008 286 Jim Fitzpatrick: We are aware of reports that the 2009 235 number of reptiles being imported into the EU has 2010 1— increased since 2007, but we do not have access to Total 11,700 EU-wide statistics to substantiate these reports. 1011W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1012W

Table 2: Reptiles recorded on TRACES as having been imported into Sheep: Tagging the UK from within the EU Number Mr. Peter Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent 2004 100 assessment he has made of progress in the implementation 2005 2,007 in the UK of measures for the electronic tagging of 2006 1,470 sheep. [322851] 2007 520 2008 1,822 Jim Fitzpatrick: Electronic identification (EID) of 2009 2,042 sheep is an EU requirement, but the administration and 2010 (1 January 2010 to 15 March 107 implementation of it is an issue for devolved 2010) Administrations. Total 8,068 In England, EID was implemented on 31 December 2009. It is too early for any implementation assessment Table 3: Reptiles recorded on TRACES as having been imported into the UK from outside the EU to be made although our officials are in regular contact Number with the sheep industry and are reviewing issues with them as they arise. 2004 132,385 Total Allowable Catches 2005 228,884 2006 295,229 Mr. Peter Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 469,669 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to 2008 381,376 the meeting of the EU Fisheries Council, December 2009 295,607 2009, when he expects to convene a meeting to consider 2010 (1 January 2010 to 15 March 38,048 the Common Fisheries Policy on Area 7 nephrops total 2010) allowable catch quota. [322849] Total 1,841,198 1 Figures not yet available. Huw Irranca-Davies: Scientists from the Agri-Food Notes: and Biosciences Institute of Northern Ireland (AFBI), 1. Some figures provided in table 3 will be for CITES-listed species, the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture and may therefore be duplicated in table 1. 2. The TRACES system was not in operation prior to 2004. Science (CEFAS) and Marine Scotland Science (MSS) 3. The figures recorded on TRACES for EU reptile imports are not a are meeting in Belfast to discuss the management of complete record of imports. There are no animal health restrictions Area 7 Nephrops this month. I will consider the next or conditions for such movements and therefore, not all imports steps in relation to the future management of the stock would be logged onto TRACES. once the conclusions of that meeting are known.

Seas and Oceans: Environment Protection JUSTICE Mr. Cox: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Arrest Warrants: War Crimes Food and Rural Affairs when he expects the guidelines for the selection of marine protection areas to be published; Dr. Starkey: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and if he will make a statement. [322441] (1) which (a) individuals and (b) organisations have been sent copies of his Department’s Better Trials Huw Irranca-Davies: The guidance for the selection Unit’s consultation note, Arrest warrants - universal and designation of Marine Conservation Zones under jurisdiction; [322816] the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, has been (2) for what reasons the consultation on Arrest published in draft form on the Department for Environment warrants - universal jurisdiction is not listed on his Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) website at: Department’s website; [322817] http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/biodiversity/marine/ (3) what steps his Department has taken to include documents/guidance-note1.pdf countries whose citizens are at risk of arrest for war This guidance is currently one of four DEFRA guidance crimes in his Department’s consultation on Arrest notes, all of which are being finalised at present. These warrants - universal jurisdiction. [322818] will form part of a suite of documents to published in Claire Ward: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of relation to the Act. The final guidance is expected to be State for Justice and Lord Chancellor (Mr. Straw) wrote published this spring. on 6 March to the Chairman of the Justice Select The ministerial statement to fulfil section 123(6) of Committee, inviting the Committee to consider proposals the Act was laid before Parliament on 11 March 2010, that were set out in a short paper, ‘Arrest warrants— Official Report, columns 26-27WS, and will shortly be universal jurisdiction’. The Chairman replied on 10 March published on the DEFRA website. The Marine Protected with the suggestion that the Government should first Area Strategy was published in draft form last year, and seek views from appropriate sources directly, which the the finalised version is planned to be issued before Committee would then consider. Easter. Copies of the paper have now been sent to interested Natural England and the Joint Nature Conservation parties, including the Lord Chief Justice, the Senior Committee have published their draft of the ‘Ecological Presiding Judge, the Senior District Judge (Chief Network Guidance to regional stakeholder groups on Magistrate), the Justices’ Clerks’ Society, the Criminal identifying Marine Conservation Zones’ on their website, Bar Association, the Law’ Society, Liberty, JUSTICE, and invite comments on it by 9 April 2010. and Amnesty International. It has also been placed on 1013W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1014W the Ministry of Justice website. We have not sought the either is resident in a hospital or similar institution or regularly views of foreign Governments, but will take note of any attends for treatment by a medical practitioner; or that may be offered. is subject to guardianship or a community treatment order under the Mental Health Act 1983; or Departmental Theft lacks capacity within the meaning of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 to perform jury service. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice This provision encompasses some people with learning what steps his Department is taking to deter theft from disabilities. For other people with learning disabilities within the Department. [322652] our policy is that support should be made available where possible to enable them to serve satisfactorily. Mr. Wills: The Department applies a regime of protective security in accordance with the Government’s Security Prison Service: Procurement Policy Framework. Measures to protect assets and deter theft involve access controls, including perimeter security, Dr. Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice guarding, alarms, CCTV and pass wearing; provision of whether the £37.5 million potential savings in secure storage to lock valuable assets away, and personnel procurement activity identified by the National Audit checks to ensure trustworthiness of those given unsupervised Office in its report on The procurement of goods and access to sites and assets. These are supplemented in services by HM Prison Service, HC 943, Session prisons by local searching strategies and daily checks on 2007-08, have been realised. [322220] store areas. We have a security breach policy which is linked to our conduct and discipline policies. Our Maria Eagle: The National Audit Office (NAO) report programme of action to improve the security of information on the procurement of goods and services by HM assets, flowing from the Data Handling Review, includes Prison Service confirmed that the Prison Service had training and awareness which covers the value of assets, estimated that savings of £37.5 million would be delivered awareness of risk and the need for protection. in 2007-08. The figure was estimated because the review was undertaken part way through the financial year in Juries: Disabled People question and the figure available at the time was a combination of realised and forecast savings. The NAO Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice conducted a follow up review in December 2008 and whether support is available to enable people with confirmed that the revised value of savings was £36,793,305. learning disabilities to serve on juries. [321971] This was fully delivered within financial year 2007-08. Mr. Straw: Support is available from both the Jury Central Prisoner Escapes Summoning Bureau (JCSB) and the courts to enable people with learning disabilities to serve on juries. All potential jurors must complete their reply to their Alan Duncan: To ask the Secretary of State for jury summons and return it to the JCSB with the help Justice how many (a) category A prisoners and (b) from a friend or family member, if necessary. Part 4 of prisoners categorised as at risk of attempting to escape the summons asks jurors ,to identify any disabilities and held at HM Prison Brixton were moved prior to a special needs. On receipt of the completed summons, security audit or inspection in each of the last five the JCSB will contact the relevant court with details of years. [301231] the information received from the juror to highlight any special arrangements for the court to put in place. Maria Eagle: Brixton has not held any Category A prisoners in the last five years. As my right hon. Friend Jurors are encouraged to contact the JCSB to arrange the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor a pre-court visit to view facilities at court and discuss (Mr. Straw) said in his written ministerial statement on any special arrangements needed. For example, courts 11 March 2010, Official Report, columns 30-32WS, on can assist the juror with reading and completing jury prison transfers prior to HMCDP Inspections, three forms while at court and the juror is given the option of prisoners were transferred from Brixton to High Down repeating the oath after the usher rather than having to and Wandsworth prior to the April 2008 investigation read it themselves. and returned after the inspection. A further prisoner However, if the juror requires a note taker or was transferred to Wandsworth but did not return to interpretation assistance in the jury room this will exclude Brixton. Another prisoner was discharged to court from them from jury service. Under the common law, a jury Brixton prior to the inspection and was transferred to must conduct its deliberations and reach its decision in Chelmsford prison from court. Each of these five prisoners the privacy of its own room and this usually necessitates was individually assessed as a potential escape risk that no one else is present. (E-list). Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice My right hon. Friend’s statement also set out the what his policy is on summoning people with learning outcome of the investigation into the three transfers disabilities to jury service. [321972] where the prisoners returned to Brixton. Mr. Straw: A person should only be required to Prisons: Mobile Phones serve on a jury where he or she is mentally capable of doing so satisfactorily.To that end, the Juries Act 1974 Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (as amended) disqualifies a person from serving if he or whether his Department has made an assessment of the she: effectiveness of security procedures at prisons in preventing suffers or has suffered from mental disorder within the meaning mobile telephones being smuggled in for inmates; and if of the Mental Health Act 1983 and on account of that condition he will make a statement. [322438] 1015W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1016W

Maria Eagle: Smuggling mobile phones, as with other Mr. Wills: The Royal Collection regularly receives contraband, is by its nature a covert activity and. the requests from museums and galleries around the United effectiveness of preventative measures is therefore difficult Kingdom and abroad for long and short-term loans, to quantify. many of which are granted. Over 3,000 objects are The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) presently on long-term loan. There are, however, no is determined to address the risks that mobile phones current plans to exhibit or loan the artefacts in question. present to security and to the safety of the public. It has implemented a strategy to minimise, find and disrupt SOLICITOR-GENERAL mobile phones in prisons. BAE Systems The strategy follows the review carried out by David David Howarth: To ask the Solicitor-General whether Blakey CBE QPM DL, formerly Her Majesty’s Inspector any information obtained by the Serious Fraud Office of Constabulary and chief constable of West Mercia, to during its investigations into BAE Systems has been review the effectiveness of the Prison Service’s measures passed to the relevant authorities in other jurisdictions; for disrupting the supply of illicit drugs in prisons. The and if she will make a statement. [321329] review acknowledged the link between the availability Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Solicitor General of phones in prisons and the smuggling of illicit drugs. whether the Serious Fraud Office has provided NOMS has made good progress in implementing the assistance to overseas investigations into the affairs of recommendations which address illicit mobile phones, BAE Systems as they relate to the al-Yamamah defence including: contract with the Government of Saudi Arabia. publishing a guide to assist prisons in tackling mobile phones, [318078] progressing work on mobile phone signal denial in prisons; The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office has and provided assistance to overseas investigations while ensuring providing all prisons with a Body Orifice Security Scanner and the UK national security interests are protected. hand held metal detectors,. which can detect mobile phones, Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings even those stored internally. NOMS is undertaking an evaluation of the technology Barry Gardiner: To ask the Solicitor-General how being used to detect mobile phones. many (a) disciplinary and (b) capability procedures have been (i) initiated and (ii) completed in the Law Royal Household Officers’ Departments in each of the last five years; how much time on average was taken to complete each type of procedure in each such year; how many and what Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for proportion of staff of the Law Officers’ Department Justice pursuant to the answer of 10 March 2010, were subject to each type of procedure in each such Official Report, column 383W, on the Royal year; and how many and what proportion of each type Household, if he will request the Royal Collection to of procedure resulted in the dismissal of the member of publish an inventory of other uniforms, decorations or staff. [320627] related artifacts in its custody relating to (a) HM King Edward VIII or any of his predecessors and (b) foreign The Solicitor-General: No member of HM Crown monarchs prior to 1937 in the next 12 months; and if Prosecution Service Inspectorate, National Fraud Authority he will make a statement. [322626] or the Attorney-General’s Office has been subject to formal discipline in the past five years. Mr. Wills: The Royal Collection has indicated that In respect of the Serious Fraud Office and Treasury they will research what information is available in this Solicitors there have been fewer than five dismissals in area and write to my hon. Friend in due course. My any single year during this period, and this information hon. Friend may also wish to read “Royal Insignia: is therefore suppressed on the grounds of confidentiality. British and Foreign Orders of Chivalry from the Royal The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and Revenue Collection” by Stephen Patterson. and Customs Prosecution Service (RCPO) have not maintained records in relation to average time taken to Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for complete each procedure. Records are only available Justice pursuant to the answer of 10 March 2010, from 2007. Official Report, column 383W, on the Royal Table 1 shows (a) the number of formal disciplinary Household, if he will request the Royal Collection to actions (i) initiated and (ii) completed in each of the (a) host an exhibition of uniforms, decorations or relevant years, the proportion of staff subject to the related artifacts in its custody, relating to (i) HM King procedures, and the number of resulting dismissals on Edward VIII or any of his predecessors and (ii) foreign disciplinary grounds. Table 2 shows the number of (b) monarchs prior to 1937 and (b) make these available formal capability procedures (i) initiated and (ii) completed for display to (A) the Imperial War Museum, (B) the in each of the relevant years, the proportion of staff National Army Museum and (c) other comparable subject to the procedures, and the number of resulting museums; and if he will make a statement. [322627] dismissals on disciplinary grounds.

Table 1: Disciplinary cases—CPS and RCPO combined Number and percentage of formal Number and percentage of formal How many and what proportions of disciplinary actions initiated within the disciplinary actions completed within the procedure resulted in dismissal within the CPS and RCPO CPS and RCPO CPS and RCPO Number Percentage staff Number Percentage staff Number Percentage

2007 56 0.6 56 0.6 5 8.92 1017W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1018W

Table 1: Disciplinary cases—CPS and RCPO combined Number and percentage of formal Number and percentage of formal How many and what proportions of disciplinary actions initiated within the disciplinary actions completed within the procedure resulted in dismissal within the CPS and RCPO CPS and RCPO CPS and RCPO Number Percentage staff Number Percentage staff Number Percentage

2008 56 0.63 56 0.63 4 7.14 2009 38 0.41 36 0.39 5 13.16

Table 2: Capability cases—CPS and RCPO combined1 Number and percentage of formal Number and percentage of formal How many and what proportions of capability (performance) actions capability (performance) actions procedure resulted in dismissal within the initiated within the CPS and RCPO completed within the CPS and RCPO CPS and RCPO Number Percentage staff Number Percentage staff Number Percentage

2008 12 0.13 10 0.11 2 18.2 2009 11 0.12 11 0.12 2 18.18 1 In 2007 there were fewer than five cases so information has not been provided so as to protect staff confidentiality.

Departmental Theft Treasury Solicitors (TSol) TSol has perimeter security at the entrance points to Mr. Watson: To ask the Solicitor-General what steps the building. All doors to the floors occupied by TSol each Law Officers’ Department is taking to deter theft are fitted with a card access system to prevent unauthorised access. All visitors are required to sign in at the main from within it. [322661] reception and wear visitor passes. Visitors are escorted to and from reception. The Solicitor-General: All of the Law Officers’ Induction briefings covering security issues are also Departments have extensive security measures in place mandatory for all new starters, including staff contractors, to prevent theft and security within their organisations. consultants and temporary staff. In addition TSol operates Specific security policies are as outlined: a clear desk policy, which ensures all cabinets are securely Attorney General’s Office locked at the end of the working day. Physical security measures are in place to protect HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate (HMCPSI) against unauthorised access to the building, and all Both office sites are secure buildings with appropriate visitors are escorted by a permanent member of staff precautions to minimise the risk of theft by contractors while on the premises. The building is guarded 24 hours or other visitors. These include perimeter security at the a day and we have provided lockable cabinets to all staff entrance points to the building, card access systems, a to secure valuables and papers. clear desk policy and staff awareness training. The Serious Fraud Office Security procedures are in place to deter and protect against theft. These measures include lockable pedestals, HOME DEPARTMENT a clear desk policy, locked safes, secure access controlled rooms, 24 hour guarding and CCTV to assist with Committees prevention, detection and response. The National Fraud Authority (NFA) Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for the NFA internal control of its finances, people and Home Department pursuant to the Parliamentary Under- organisation, includes the vetting of potential staff as Secretary of State’s contribution to the Fifth Delegated part of its recruitment process. NFA also ensures all Legislation Committee on 9 March 2010 and paragraph relevant policies are fully publicised so that staff are 7.2 of the explanatory memorandum to the draft kept aware of their responsibilities and duties in respect Extradition Act 2003 (Amendment to Designations) of security issues. Order 2010, what the administrative oversight in respect of the exchange of instruments of ratification was; who The agency’s arrangements to deter and detect internal should have informed his Department that the instruments theft are overseen by its head of finance and internal of ratification had been exchanged; when the oversight and external auditors, and a disciplinary framework was discovered; and for what reasons this information exists to deal with any malpractice or criminal offence. was not provided to the Committee by the Parliamentary Security procedures are in place to deter and protect Under-Secretary of State. [322043] against theft. These measures include, secure access, twenty four hour guarding and CCTV. Meg Hillier [holding answer 16 March 2010]: As I have said the Government regret the delay in laying the The Crown Prosecution Service order designating Libya as an extradition partner under Deters theft by maintaining strong internal controls, the Extradition Act 2003 and that Parliament was not which include a policy on fraud, a code of conduct for afforded the opportunity to discuss the matter at an staff and training on all aspects of security including earlier date. More than one Government Department is physical security and theft prevention. In addition all involved in the treaty process and unfortunately, on this office buildings are secure and visitors and contractors occasion, the usual contact between the Home Office are supervised on site. Contracted staff must all pass and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office did not the appropriate security vetting regime. take place leading to a delay in notification that the 1019W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1020W ratification procedures were complete. The oversight Motor Vehicles: Seized Articles was discovered in January 2010 and arrangements were made immediately for the order to be drafted and Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State considered by Parliament at the earliest opportunity. for the Home Department how many cars were seized in the Merseyside Police Authority area for (a) Fraud crushing and (b) disposal by other means in each of the last five years. [322629]

Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Alan Campbell: This information is not held the Home Department how many incidents of offences centrally. The police can seize and remove vehicles in related to (a) credit card and (b) mortgage fraud certain circumstances. Any vehicle so seized can be affecting residents in Leeds North West constituency reclaimed on payment of charges and on satisfaction of were reported in each of the last five years. [322706] any other prescribed requirements. If a vehicle is not reclaimed, the police may dispose of it as they consider Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is not appropriate. available in that form from the police recorded crime statistics collected by the Home Office. It is not possible Police: Equality to separately identify credit card and mortgage fraud from other offences within the Fraud and Forgery offence Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the group. Home Department what estimate he has made of the The measurement of fraud is challenging as it is proportion of police officer time spent on equality and known to be very substantially under-reported to the diversity training in each year since 1997. [320550] police. Financial institutions will encourage customers Alan Johnson: Equality and diversity is embedded (both personal and business) to report cheque, plastic throughout all police training courses. Information is card or online bank account fraud directly to them and not held centrally on classroom based training attended not the police in the first instance. Fraud reported to by police officers, as it is the responsibility of individual financial institutions will then only be reported to the police forces. police if they are satisfied that there is a reasonable chance of a suspect being brought to justice through police investigation. TREASURY In addition to the fraud and forgery offences which are recorded by the police, the Home Office publishes Carbon Emissions: EU Action information on plastic card offences identified by the UK Card Association along with findings from the Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Chancellor of the British Crime Survey (BCS). The BCS provides a measure Exchequer what the Government’s policy is on of plastic card fraud among adult residents in households proposals for an EU-wide minimum tax on carbon. which is important because it captures data on incidents [322509] which are not reported to the police. However, neither of these sources have data at borough level. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: There is currently no EU Further information is contained in Chapter 4 of Commission proposal for an EU-wide minimum tax on ’Crime in England and Wales 2008/09’, a copy of which carbon. is available in the Library. Corporation Tax

Immigrants: Detainees Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what estimate he has made of the number of companies owing unpaid corporation tax of (a) less than £10,000, Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the (b) between £10,001 and £25,000, (c) between £25,001 Home Department how many children of each age and £50,000, (d) between £50,001 and £100,000 and group from each country have been held in (e) more than £100,000 in each region in each of the immigration (a) detention and (b) removal centres at last five years; and how much in total was owed in each each location prior to deportation in each year since such category; [322488] 1997. [319527] (2) what estimate he has made of the amount of Alan Johnson: The information is not held centrally corporation tax owed to HM Revenue and Customs in and could be provided only by checking individual each of the last five years. [322489] records over the period requested at a disproportionate cost. Mr. Timms: The annual amount of corporation tax debt is shown in HMRC’s annual accounts, available at: National Statistics on children detained solely under http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/reports.htm Immigration Act powers on a snapshot basis are published quarterly. The information is published in Tables 9-11 The breakdowns of corporation tax debt by the of the Control of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical number of companies, by size of debt, and by region Summary, United Kingdom bulletins which are available would be available only at disproportionate cost. from the Library of the House and from the Home Debt Collection Office’s Research, Development and Statistics website at: Danny Alexander: To ask the Chancellor of the http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Exchequer (1) how many complaints have been made to stats.html the Financial Services Ombudsman by residents of (a) 1021W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1022W

Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey constituency, Property lost or stolen in 2009 (b) the Highlands, (c) Scotland and (d) England and Number Wales regarding debt recovery agencies in each of the Stolen last five years; [315627] BlackBerry mobile devices 2 (2) how many debt recovery agencies have been subject Remote Access Unit 1 to financial penalties in (a) Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey constituency, (b) the Highlands, (c) Laptop case 1 Scotland and (d) England and Wales in each month PC mouse 1 since the introduction of the specific requirements clause Filing cabinet key 1 of the Consumer Credit Act 2006. [315628] The total cost of replacement is estimated at £2,100. Kevin Brennan: I have been asked to reply. Departmental Theft Complaints made to the financial service ombudsman by residents regarding debt recovery agencies is a matter Mr. Watson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the financial ombudsman service and they will write what steps his Department is taking to deter theft from to the hon. Member directly with the details. within the Department. [322656] The OFT has told us that since the introduction of its wider powers in April 2008, it has imposed requirements Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Guidance on taking precautions on six debt collection agencies whose conduct has caused against theft is provided to staff on the Treasury intranet. it dissatisfaction. Requirements were imposed on one Staff are reminded of the importance of locking away business in Scotland in April 2009. Four businesses their valuables or departmental assets when they leave based in England are subject to conduct requirements: the office at the end of the day or while they are away these were imposed respectively in February 2009, May from their desks for long periods of time. Reminders 2009 and, on two of the businesses, in June 2009. are issued periodically. Requirements were imposed on the remaining business, Furthermore the importance of all aspects of security which is based in the Philippines but collects debts from is emphasised to new staff as part of the standard UK consumers, in November 2008. Treasury induction training. The OFT does not have the power to impose an EU External Trade: Israel immediate financial penalty on licensed businesses where it is dissatisfied with the conduct of the business. However, Dr. Starkey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if a trader fails to comply with a requirement, it could pursuant to the contribution by the Exchequer be subject to a penalty of up to £50,000 and/or revocation Secretary of 27 January 2010, Official Report, column of its licence. As yet no financial penalties have been 319WH, on the EU-Israel trade agreement, what imposed, but OFT is monitoring compliance with the additional checks HM Revenue and Customs have requirements imposed. undertaken on (a) known settlement producers and Departmental Legal Costs (b) imports of cosmetic products from Ahava. [322805] Mr. Timms: To date, HM Revenue and Customs has Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer considered imports of tahini and sweet peppers. how much his Department has spent in (a) legal fees and (b) compensation on legal cases concerning It has added sweet peppers to the series of targeted remuneration of its employees in each of the last 10 physical examinations which the United Kingdom Border Agency is undertaking in respect of imports of fresh years. [322066] produce from Israel. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information requested could It has not added tahini as the product attracts a nil not be obtained within the disproportionate costs threshold. rate of customs duty outside of the provisions of the EU-lsrael Association Agreement and, consequently, Departmental Lost Property there is no scope for abuse of the preferential trade arrangements. John Mason: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer HMRC has started to investigate exports made under what property has been recorded as (a) lost and (b) the EU-lsrael Agreement by the Settlements companies stolen from his Department in the last 12 months; and listed in the 2009 research paper prepared by the University what estimate has been made of the cost of the of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies, replacement of that property. [322068] which have economic links with the UK. While for reasons of commercial confidentiality HMRC Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The following items of HM cannot disclose information in respect of enquiries into Treasury property were reported lost or stolen during exports made by specific companies, it has undertaken the 12 months ending December 2009: further checks in respect of a range of cosmetic products Property lost or stolen in 2009 imported under the EU-lsrael Agreement over the last Number three years.

Lost National Insurance Contributions BlackBerry mobile devices 3 Laptop USB tokens 4 Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to paragraph 6.43 of HM Revenue and Customs 2008-09 Accounts, for what 1023W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1024W reasons items are placed in the suspense files; what the ascertain the number of individuals affected because definition is of an item; what will be done with these several unmatched items may relate to one individual. items once the National Insurance and PAYE Service The number of items added to the suspense file has (NPS) is fully implemented; and what his estimate is of decreased year on year over he last four years. For the number of items which will be added to suspense 2007-08, the most recent tax year for which detailed files each year once NPS is fully implemented. [316116] information is held, some 1.9 million new items were added to the suspense file; this represents 3.3 per cent. Mr. Duncan Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the of the year’s returns. Exchequer (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that HMRC expect that the number of items that cannot information on national insurance contributions paid be initially matched to a national insurance account will by employees submitted to HM Revenue and Customs continue to decrease as a result of the introduction of by employers is sufficient to enable individual records the national insurance and PAYE Service, which provides to be updated; [318207] a single customer record for individual across HMRC. (2) what steps his Department has taken to match HMRC is working with employers, pension providers the 116 million items from employers unmatched in and their representative bodies to identify the issues 2007 to individual national insurance contributions that cause incomplete or incorrect data and to understand accounts; what steps HM Revenue and Customs has better the implications of unaligned data. The Department taken to inform employees paying national insurance is also working with large employer representatives on of the need to ensure accuracy of their account; what new employee education to be provided through the assessment he has made of the effects on employees of employer induction process. This is designed to improve the volume of unmatched items; and what estimate he the accuracy of the information coming through to has made of the number of people who have paid HMRC when individuals start or leave employment, national insurance contributions which have not been and will also help to reduce costs for employers and credited to their account by 2008-09. [318208] pension providers.

Mr. Timms: Employers must provide HM Revenue Places of Worship: Grants and Customs (HMRC) with information regarding the national insurance contributions of their employees during the year using the P35 and P45 forms when Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the individuals enter and leave employment respectively, Exchequer what discussions he has had with the and for all employees at the end of the year using the Church Commissioners on the extension of the Grant P14 and P11D forms. Funding for the Listed Places of Worship Scheme continuing beyond March 2011; and if he will make a Through these processes HMRC may receive information statement. [322405] on national insurance (NI) contributions that cannot be matched to the relevant employee record. This occurs Mr. Timms: Treasury Ministers and officials have when employers provide inaccurate or insufficient personal discussions with a wide variety of organisations in the details about the relevant employee to enable the public and private sectors as part of the process of information to be matched with the appropriate national policy development and delivery. As was the case with insurance account. previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s To help improve the quality of the information provided practice to provide details of all such discussions. through these processes and to reduce the admin burden they place on employers, HMRC has introduced online Smuggling: Alcoholic Drinks filing for PAYE returns. All employers with 50 or more employees now file their in-year and end of year returns Paul Holmes: To ask the Chancellor of the online; from April 2011 all employers will need to do so. Exchequer what the estimated monetary value of Recent increases in online filing and the introduction of smuggled alcohol which was seized was in each year the new national insurance and PAYE Service has increased since 1997. [321891] HMRC’s ability to match the information it receives, and to identify where corrective action needs to be taken when this is not possible. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Data relating to the estimated value of smuggled alcohol seized by HMRC, and latterly The National Insurance Contributions Office applies the UK Border Agency (UKBA), are only available makes all reasonable efforts to match these items to going back to 2003. contributor records, including writing to the employer Estimates of the total value of beer, wine and spirits and/or the employee for further information. Where seizures i.e. the value of the goods and associated tax, in items cannot be matched they are kept on non-matched each year since 2003 are: suspense files until which time they can be matched to the correct national insurance account. HMRC estimate Estimated value (£) that around 85 per cent. of non-matching items are below the relevant earnings threshold, meaning that 2003-04 14,068,459 individually they cannot affect contributor benefits. 2004-05 5,718,224 If a specific tax year is not qualifying for basic state 2005-06 3,160,457 retirement pension or bereavement benefit purposes 2006-07 4,864,020 HMRC will automatically write to the individual concerned 2007-08 5,108,224 to provide them with the opportunity to either query 2008-09 8,750,397 the details held on their NI account or pay voluntary 2009-101 13,257,063 contributions where appropriate. It is not possible to 1 For the period from 1 April 2009 to 28 February 2010 1025W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1026W

The increasing value of border seizures is explained last year for which figures are available; and if he will largely by the establishment of the UKBA. This has list the branded items. [321668] significantly improved detection rates of smuggled alcohol - particularly of high-value spirits. Margaret Hodge [holding answer 11 March 2010]: Taxation The Department’s expenditure on branded stationery and other products was as follows: Mr. Gauke: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (a) £11,760 on departmental branded stationery (letterheads, (1) what steps HM Revenue and Customs is taking to business cards and other stationery). ensure the accuracy of tax code notices to be issued in (b) Other products: £11,690 on various items such as agendas, 2010-11; [322499] backdrops, signage, brochures and on merchandise for DCMS launches and events. (2) what steps HM Revenue and Customs takes to inform people of errors in their tax coding notices; [322500] Departmental Surveys (3) how many people have notified HM Revenue and Customs of errors in tax coding notices in 2010; Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, [322501] Media and Sport if he will place in the Library a copy (4) what estimate he has made of the number of of the benchmark results of the Civil Service People incorrect tax coding notices issued by HM Revenue Survey for his Department and its agencies. [322578] and Customs in 2010. [322502] Mr. Bradshaw: The Department will publish the October Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) 2009 staff survey results on the DCMS website in April takes every effort to ensure the accuracy of the annual 2010. Following publication, a copy of both the DCMS coding notices it issues as part of the operation of the and The Royal Parks Agency results will be placed in PAYE system. the Library. But where an individual’s circumstances differ from the information held by the Department, changes may Diamond Jubilee 2012 be needed to bring an individual’s tax code up to date. HMRC therefore issues coding notices in advance of the new tax year to allow individuals time to check they Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for are correct and to contact the Department if their tax Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he code does need updating before the start of the year to has had with the Secretary of State for Business, reflect any changes in their circumstances. Innovation and Skills on the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee. Customers are encouraged to use the information [322525] provided on HM Revenue and Customs’ (HMRC) website at: Margaret Hodge: Planning for the Diamond Jubilee http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/tax-codes.htm is still at an early stage and officials keep all Ministers to help them understand their PAYE tax code and if fully informed. I expect my right hon. Friend the Secretary necessary contact their tax office to update their code. of State to have discussions with my noble Friend, the Information on how to find your tax office is available Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills at: on the Queens Diamond Jubilee. http://search2.hmrc.gov.uk/kbroker/hmrc/locator/locator.jsp This year, following the introduction of a new National Flags Insurance and PAYE Service, HMRC has identified several situations where, due to a mismatch between Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for data held on HMRC’s systems and data supplied by Culture, Media and Sport how much his Department employers and pension providers, individuals could receive has spent on (a) new flags and (b) flag maintenance in an incorrect coding notice. The Department is reviewing each of the last five years. [322603] all affected individuals, publicising the issue on its website and providing regular updates on the types of situations that could lead to incorrect coding notices. Margaret Hodge: Since 2007-08 the Department has spent the following on new flags and flag maintenance No estimates have been made on the number of for its Headquarters building. Costs relating to years incorrect coding notices issued as it is normal for a prior to 2007-08 are not available. proportion to need updating to reflect changes in an individual’s circumstances. This year around 700,000 New flags (£) Flag maintenance (£) customers have contacted HMRC to request an updated notice of coding. 2007-08 225.01 491.63 2008-09 0 1,109.16 2009-10 0 1,318.14 CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT The Department has responsibility for providing facilities Departmental Marketing for a number of state occasions, which includes flag flying. Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Since 2005 -06 the Department has spent the following Media and Sport how much his Department spent on on the purchase of new flags and flag maintenance for branded (a) stationery and (b) other products in the ceremonial events. 1027W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1028W

St. George’s Day New flags (£) Flag maintenance (£)

2005-06 71,570.99 35,419.97 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 17,892.08 132,641.97 Culture, Media and Sport whether members of his 2007-08 26,157.67 139,745.57 Department plan to attend events to commemorate St. 2008-09 23,124.50 140,430.64 George’s Day 2010 in an official capacity. [322598] 2009-10 (April 09 31,245.00 119,751.43 to January 2010) Margaret Hodge: On 23 April, the Department for 1 From 2006 the flag maintenance costs included expenditure for ad Culture, Media and Sport will fly the St. George’s Flag hoc events for which the Department was reimbursed: 2006/07 = alongside the Union Flag to celebrate St. George’s Day. £2,260.50; 2007/8 =£3,353.44; 2008/9 =£5,839.50 and 2009/10 = £3,472.00 At present Ministers of the Department have no plans to attend St. George’s Day events in an official capacity. Flags: Correspondence Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (1) how much his Department Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to spend on activities to commemorate St. George’s Culture, Media and Sport how many items of Day in 2010; [322599] correspondence on the subject of flags his Department has received from members of the public in the last 12 (2) what steps his Department plans to take to months. [322609] commemorate St. George’s Day in 2010; and how much it plans to spend on such activities. [322601] Margaret Hodge: Between 15 March 2009 and 15 Margaret Hodge: On 23 April the Department for March 2010, the Department received 83 items of Culture, Media and Sport will fly the St. George’s Flag correspondence in which the subject of flags was the alongside the Union Flag to celebrate St. George’s Day. primary issue. This will be at minimal cost. Seven letters were from Members of Parliament and English Heritage plans to mark the day with events at the remainder from members of the public. The Department several properties around the country, the biggest of holds no records of further representations on this which will be a two day St. George’s Day Festival at subject during this time period. Wrest Park in Bedfordshire. English Heritage’s total It is possible that further correspondence could relate planned spend for production and marketing of their to flags as a secondary issue, however, this information St. George’s Day events in 2010 is £43,000, which they could only be identified at disproportionate cost. expect to recoup from income earned through admissions, retail and membership. Olympic Games 2012: Flags World Heritage Sites: National Lottery

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much his Department Culture, Media and Sport how many World Heritage plans to spend on flags for the London 2012 Olympic Sites in the UK have received grants from the Heritage Lottery Fund since the inception of the National and Paralympic Games. [322596] Lottery; and what the aggregate monetary value of such grants was. [322617] Tessa Jowell: I am replying as Minister for the Olympics. As part of the public sector funding package for hosting Margaret Hodge: Between November 1994 and 31 the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games, there is a March 2009, 20 World Heritage Sites in the UK benefited budget of £32 million for the Look of London 2012. from Heritage Lottery Fund grants to 413 projects This budget will be used for street dressing, including totalling £288 million. flags, across the UK. Heritage Lottery Fund has supplied the figures of the The creative design of this project is under development. funding allocated to projects in the table.

Region World Heritage Site Number of projects Value of awards (£)

England Bath 40 8,513,987 Wales Blaenavon 12 9,120,345 England Canterbury 5 3,213,342 England Cornwall and West Devon 56 13,976,968 England Derwent Valley 28 4,149,965 England Durham Castle and Cathedral 4 591,955 Scotland Edinburgh 73 61,976,427 Northern Ireland Giant’s Causeway 1 37,500 England Greenwich 21 62,219,082 Wales Gwynedd, Castles of Edward I 3 1,127,500 England Hadrian’s Wall 53 19,006,012 England Ironbridge 27 9,916,584 England Jurassic Coast 41 5,250,334 England Kew Gardens 4 4,955,500 England Liverpool 32 69,357,571 1029W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1030W

Region World Heritage Site Number of projects Value of awards (£)

Scotland New Lanark 6 4,903,819 Scotland Orkney 1 50,000 England Saltaire 2 3,358,800 England Tower of London 3 5,845,100 England Westminster Abbey 1 259,900 Total 413 287,830,691

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Deaths for enterprises with less than 50 employment England and Wales Essex county Southend West Energy: National Policy Statements 2002 195,575 5,275 n/a Mr. Truswell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2003 214,135 5,830 n/a Energy and Climate Change when he expects the 2004 224,340 5,790 n/a national policy statements on energy to come into 2005 210,210 5,555 345 effect. [322365] 2006 190,140 5,095 340 2007 206,655 5,655 300 Mr. Kidney: The Government intend to finalise and formally designate the energy National Policy Statements 2008 201,185 5,635 355 later in 2010. n/a = Not available Cabinet: Exeter Natural Gas: Imports Mr. Swire: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (1) what the cost was of security arrangements for the and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the meeting of the Cabinet in Exeter on 5 February 2010; volume of imported gas which will be re-exported to and from what budgets that cost was met; [322277] Europe from the UK (a) in 2010 and (b) in each of (2) which Ministers travelled by Government Car the next five years. [322031] Service car to the meeting of the Cabinet in Exeter on Mr. Kidney [holding answer 12 March 2010]: It is not 5 February 2010; [322278] possible to calculate these volumes. This is because, (3) from what budgets the costs of transport to and once imported, gas enters the National Transmission from the meeting of the Cabinet in Exeter on System, where it is comingled with gas from other 5 February 2010 were met; [323137] sources; this makes it impossible to say whether or when (4) from what budgets the costs of the meeting of the gas that is exported had previously been imported. Cabinet in Exeter on 5 February 2010 were met. [323138]

CABINET OFFICE Tessa Jowell: The visit of the Cabinet to Exeter on 5 February 2010 was one of several ministerial visits Business: Closures across the region that day. There was a public engagement event and a formal Cabinet meeting. The purpose of Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the meeting was for the Cabinet as a whole to hear the Office what estimate has been made of the number of views of people in the south-west. Feedback from local small businesses which have closed in (a) Essex, (b) people who have attended the Exeter event and other Southend West constituency and (c) England and previous meetings has been very positive; people welcomed Wales in each year since 1997. [321898] the opportunity to raise important local, regional or national issues directly with the Cabinet. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls The cost of the public engagement event and the within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Cabinet meeting was approximately £51,964, excluding I have asked the authority to reply. VAT. This figure includes the cost of hiring the venue, Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: catering, associated security and delegate management. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I The budget for these events is held by the Cabinet have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Office. The cost of any security provided by the police is concerning what estimate has been made of the number of small a matter for the relevant police force. The transport to businesses which have closed in a) Essex, b) Southend West constituency and c) England and Wales in each year since 1997. and from these visits is a matter for the Secretary of (321898) State in each Department but wherever possible Ministers Annual statistics on business births, deaths and survival are are encouraged to travel by public transport and keep available for 2002 onwards from the ONS release on Business costs to a minimum. Demography at: Civil Servants: Milton Keynes www.statistics.gov.uk Information on the number of enterprise deaths by parliamentary constituency is only available from 2005 onwards. The table below Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet contains the latest statistics available on active enterprises with Office how many full-time equivalent civil servants less than 50 employment for England and Wales, Essex county have been employed in Milton Keynes in each year and Southend West. since 1997. [321873] 1031W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1032W

Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls civil servants: surveys, by what means an hon. Member may within the responsibility of the UK Statustics Authority. commission specific analyses from the Office for National Statistics. I have asked the authority to reply. (322912) Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2910: As I explained in my letter to the Rt. Hon. Francis Maude, MPs may commission ONS to carry out specific analyses from As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I ONS surveys. Requests for such analyses should be directed to me have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question in the first instance. concerning how many full-time equivalent civil servants have been employed in Milton Keynes in each year since 1997. (321873). Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office A consistent time series for the number of full-time equivalent what (a) desks and (b) offices the Office for National civil servants employed in Milton Keynes is only available back Statistics has at UK (i) airports and (ii) ports. [322915] to 2005. The requested data are attached at Annex A. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Annex A: Civil Service employment in Milton Keynes1—all employees within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Full time equivalent I have asked the authority to reply.

20052 1,830 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: 20062 1,830 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I am replying to your recent Parliamentary Question asking what (a) 20073 1,930 desks and (b) offices the Office for National Statistics has at UK 3 2008 1,970 (i) airports and (ii) ports. (322915) 3 2009 2,000 The Office for National Statistics has desks and Offices at the 1 Numbers are rounded to the nearest 10. following Airports, Ports and International Rail Stations in order 2 2005-2006 Mandate only - incomplete coverage of Civil Service to conduct the International Passenger Survey. departments. 3 2007-2009 Annual Civil Service Employment Survey - 100 per cent. Airport Desks coverage of Government departments and agencies. Gatwick Airport Source: Heathrow Airport Mandate collection (2005-06) Annual Civil Service Employment Survey (2007-09) Manchester Airport Stansted Airport Electorate: British Nationals Abroad Airport Offices Birmingham International Airport Mr. Dunne: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Bristol Airport Office how many British nationals resident in each Cardiff Airport (to be vacated) country outside the UK were registered to vote in UK Gatwick Airport elections on the most recent date for which figures are Glasgow Airport available. [322822] Heathrow Airport Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Liverpool John Lennon Airport within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Luton Airport I have asked the authority to reply. Manchester Airport Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: Newcastle Airport As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Stansted Airport have been asked to reply to your question asking how many Port Offices British nationals resident in each country outside the UK were Harwich registered to vote in UK elections on the most recent date for which figures arc available. (322822) Holyhead The total number of overseas electors registered to vote in UK Station Offices parliamentary elections was 14,901 on 1 December 2009, the Ashford International Rail Terminal most recent date for which figures are available. ONS does not Cheriton Channel Tunnel Terminal have information on which country overseas electors are resident in. St Pancras International. Office for National Statistics Public Expenditure

Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office pursuant to the answer to the right hon. Member for what proportion of national output was contributed by Horsham of 25 January 2010, Official Report, column Government spending in each year since 1996. [322891] 655W, on civil servants: surveys, by what means an hon. Member may commission specific analyses from Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls the Office for National Statistics. [322912] within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I I have asked the authority to reply. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: concerning the proportion of national output was contributed by As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Government spending in each year since 1996. (322891) have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question General Government Final Consumption Expenditure (GGFCE) asking pursuant to the Answer to the right hon. Member for as a proportion of GDP is shown at market prices from 1996 to Horsham of 25 January 2010, Official Report, column 655W, on 2009 in the table below: 1033W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1034W

Barbara Follett: A copy of the research report for the General Government final GGFCE as a following contracts have been placed in the Library: consumption proportion of ANS020336: Assessment of the evidence on the integration of expenditure GDP (market GDP (market new migrants (market prices) prices) (£ prices), RAE31623: International Migration and Rural Economies (£ million) million) (percentage) RAE312162: Scenario Building for Local and Sectoral Economic 1996 148,767 781,726 19.0 Performance under Changing Net Migration 1997 150,652 830,094 18.1 RAE312161: Projections of Migration Inflows under Alternative 1998 156,490 879,102 17.8 Scenarios for the UK and World Economies. 1999 169,652 928,730 18.3 A research report for ANS020338—Drivers of 2000 181,972 976,533 18.6 International Migration to the UK and the Regions—has 2001 194,584 1,021,828 19.0 not been published yet as the project is not due to be 2002 212,577 1,075,564 19.8 completed until March 2010. 2003 232,819 1,139,746 20.4 2004 251,114 1,202,956 20.9 Eco-towns 2005 268,088 1,254,058 214 2006 285,187 1,325,795 21.5 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 294,713 1,398,882 21.1 Communities and Local Government with reference to 2008 313,562 1,448,391 21.6 the answer to the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire 2009 329,289 1,396,474 23.6 on 28 October 2008, Official Report, column 948W, on eco-towns, what other information on eco-towns The series for GGFCE and GDP as shown in the table above published by external bodies (a) has been and (b) is are the most up-to-date figures published by the Office for National planned to be funded by his Department. [306435] Statistics on 26th February 2010. They can be accessed on our website via the following link: John Healey: We have provided funding to external http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/tsdtables1.asp?vlnk=pn2 bodies to gain expert advice to support the development Table C1 in the link contains the series for GGFCE (identifier: of the eco-towns programme on a range of issues, NMRP) and GDP (identifier: YBHA). including sustainability, financial viability, local impact assessment and the analysis of consultation responses. I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Margaret COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Beckett) to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Affordable Housing Shapps), on 23 February 2009, Official Report, column 106W. Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for As I set out in a written ministerial statement on Communities and Local Government how many Social 1 December 2009, Official Report, column 119WS, we Homebuy transactions have been completed to date. are also making £5 million available for studies to test [323184] the feasibility of the potential second wave bids for exemplar green developments, as well as £5 million for John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer demonstrator projects. given by my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, North Energy Performance Certificates (Mr. Austin) to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) on 9 March 2010, Official Report, columns Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for 208-10W. Communities and Local Government how many energy performance certificates (EPCs) were lodged on Council Housing Finance Review the EPC Register between 18 September 2008 and 31 May 2009. [320282] Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will publish Mr. Ian Austin [holding answer 4 March 2010]: A the working papers produced by the Review of Council total of 1,639,834 domestic and 80,641 non domestic Housing Finance relating to (a) core and non-core Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) were lodged on services and costs and (b) the research referred to in the EPC Registers between 18 September 2008 and paragraph 3.20 of the consultation paper. [320572] 31 May 2009. Green Belt: Property Development Mr. Ian Austin [holding answer 4 March 2010]: The research is available on the Communities and Local Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Government website and the document has been placed Communities and Local Government what percentage in the Library of the House. of new dwellings have been built in designated Green Belt land in each region in each year since 1997. Departmental Research [320528] Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Ian Austin: Land Use Change Statistics Live for Communities and Local Government if he will Table 241 gives an annual regional breakdown of the place in the Library a copy of the research report percentage of new dwellings built within the 2008 designated commissioned by his Department with reference (a) green belt since 1989. The table can be found at: ANS020338, (b) RAE31623, (c) RAE312162, (d) http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/ ANS020336 and (e) RAE312161. [306832] planningbuilding/planningstatistics/livetables/landusechange/ 1035W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1036W

Homelessness: Sefton Land Use Change Statistics Live Table 232 gives a local authority level breakdown of the density of all Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State new dwellings that were built. Estimates at a local for Communities and Local Government how many authority level are provided as multi-year averages due people were homeless in Sefton in each year since 2000. to the volatile nature of the data at spatial levels lower [322637] than Government Office Region. Both tables can be found at: Mr. Ian Austin: A table of figures on the number of http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/ households accepted by local housing authorities as planningbuilding/planningstatistics/livetables/landusechange/ owed a main homelessness duty between 1999-2000 and 2008-09 has been deposited in the Library of the House Land Use in response to the question I answered from the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) on 23 June 2009, Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 843W. Communities and Local Government when he expects Information is also collected and reported on the to restore Live Tables 251 and 252 on Land Use number of people who sleep rough—i.e. those who are Change statistics on his Department’s website. [320525] literally roofless on a single night. Local authority data and count guidance can be found on the CLG website: Mr. Ian Austin: Land Use Change Statistics Live http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ Tables 251 and 252 are available on the Department’s statistics/roughsleeping2009 website, they were last updated in January 2010. Housing: Construction Both tables can be found at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/ Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State planningbuilding/planningstatistics/livetables/landusechange/ for Communities and Local Government how many The next update will be in May 2010. (a) social and (b) private homes which meet the lifetime homes standard have been built in each year Local Government: National Parks Authorities since the standard was introduced; and what targets there are for the number of (i) private and (ii) social Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for homes to be built to the standard. [319041] Communities and Local Government what recent representations he has received on the potential for Mr. Ian Austin: The following numbers are only those closer co-operation between local authorities and delivered via the National Affordable Housing Programme. national park authorities. [301755] The Lifetime Home Standard was also introduced in the Property and Regeneration Programme in 2005 and Mr. Ian Austin: We encourage the national park as such an increasing number of homes being delivered authorities to explore all avenues to improve their efficiency through this programme will attain the Lifetime Homes and effectiveness in the delivery of national park purposes. Standard. We do not hold this information centrally The authorities already work closely with their constituent and the figures could be provided only at disproportionate local authorities and their membership structure provides cost. for the majority being councillors from these local 2006-07: 3,120 authorities. This close relationship has been further 2007-08: 4,964 enhanced by the provisions in the Local Government 2008-09: 5,199 and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. We do not retain information centrally as to the We are currently consulting on guidance on the number of private sector homes built to the Lifetime establishment of local authority leaders’ boards under Homes Standard and figures could be provided only at Part 5 of the Local Democracy Economic Development disproportionate cost. and Construction Act. Representations have been received There are no targets established for private sector from national parks and we will publish the guidance homes to be built to the Lifetime Homes Standard. In shortly. the 2008 strategy ‘Lifetime Homes Lifetime Neighbourhoods—a National Strategy for Housing in Ordnance Survey: Finance an Ageing Society’ we stated: “Our aspiration is that by 2013 all new homes will be being built to Lifetime Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities homes Standards” (paragraph 5 page 90). and Local Government what steps will be taken to In the same strategy we committed to ‘Make adherence replace revenue foregone by Ordnance Survey should to Lifetime Homes Standard mandatory for all public its geographic information be made available without sector housing by 2011’ (Actions, p95). charge. [321212]

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ian Austin: Government are committed to ensuring Communities and Local Government what the average a sustainable operating model for Ordnance Survey so density of new dwellings was in each (a) region and (b) that it can continue to maintain the supply of high local authority area in each year since 1997. [320526] quality geographic information to Government and other users. Details on the model selected will be set out Mr. Ian Austin: Land Use Change Statistics Live in the Government’s response to the public consultation Table 231 gives an annual regional breakdown of the on policy options for geographic information from density of new dwellings from 1989. Ordnance Survey. 1037W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1038W

NORTHERN IRELAND Paul Goggins: We have not as yet received any further approach from the Northern Ireland Minister for Health, Children: Abuse Social Services and Public Safety. It is my understanding that he has also written to a number of his fellow Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Ministers in the NI Executive on the matter and is Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer of 16 currently considering their responses. December 2009, Official Report, column 1234W, on the Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Irish Government Commission: child abuse, whether Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer of 19 January he has (a) taken any steps and (b) made any decisions 2010, Official Report, column 208W,on clergy: misconduct, following consideration of (i) the letter from the whether he has received any representations from the Northern Ireland Minister of Health and (ii) the email Irish government on the issue of clergy misconduct and from the solicitor from Northern Ireland. [322827] sexual abuse pursuant to the commission of inquiry conducted in the Irish Republic since the date of that Paul Goggins: I have replied directly to the Northern Answer; and if he will make a statement. [322829] Ireland Minister for Health, Social Services and Public Safety, and my officials have written to the solicitor Paul Goggins: No such representation has been received concerned. We have given assurances that we are happy from the Irish Government. to assist in any way to progress the issue when there is an agreed way forward. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Offences Against Children Business: Government Assistance

Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister of State, Department Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer of 11 January for Business, Innovation and Skills how many small 2010, Official Report, column 639W, on clergy: businesses have applied for a loan through the Enterprise misconduct, if he will publish the reply made by his Finance Guarantee Scheme; what criteria are used by officials to the solicitor Joe Rice. [322825] his Department in deciding suitability for a loan under the scheme; under what circumstances an application Paul Goggins: I have placed a copy of this correspondence for such a loan would be refused; how many applications in the Library of the House, along with a copy of a have been (a) accepted and (b) refused; what the further letter to the same firm of solicitors which was average loan made was; whether interest is charged on issued on 16 February 2010. each loan; how much has been allocated by his Department to the scheme for 2009-10; and if he will make a Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [321941] Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer of 7 January Ms Rosie Winterton: Under the Enterprise Finance 2010, Official Report, column 497W,on clergy: misconduct, Guarantee, as of 3 March 2010, over £1.2 billion of if he will initiate discussions with (a) the Irish government, eligible applications from almost 11,000 firms has been (b) the Roman Catholic Bishop’s Conference of Ireland granted, being processed or assessed. Of which, over and Primate of Ireland and (c) the Papal Nuncio on 8,500 businesses have been offered loans totalling over the implications of the report of the Irish Commission £860 million. The average value of offered loans is of Inquiry into sex abuse and related misconduct by around £101,000. members of the clergy and religious orders transferred The Department plays no role in the application or to dioceses or religious houses in Northern Ireland or decision making process. Businesses may apply for a elsewhere in the United Kingdom; and if he will make a loan from any one of the accredited participating lenders statement. [322826] who will assess which form of lending, including an Enterprise Finance Guarantee backed loan, is most Paul Goggins: This matter cuts across the responsibilities appropriate. We do not hold figures for those businesses of a number of Departments in both the devolved and which are instead offered a normal commercial loan, or reserved areas. I understand that, following the resolution are rejected for failing to meet the lender’s commercial passed by the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern criteria. Ireland Minister for Health, Social Services and Public There are three main criteria for a business being Safety is preparing a paper for the Northern Ireland offered an EFG loan application: Executive, setting out options for the way ahead. I have The business meeting the lender’s normal commercial criteria already indicated our commitment to participate fully in relation to the viability of the business and serviceability of the in any agreed actions. Until then, it would be premature loan. This judgment will vary according to the lender concerned. for us to act unilaterally or to initiate discussions with The lender determining that use of EFG, rather than a normal any of the individuals or organisations. commercial loan, is necessary because of no or insufficient security available on the part of the business. Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for The business meeting the basic EFG eligibility criteria with Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer of 19 January respect to the size of loan, purpose of loan, turnover size, 2010, Official Report, column 208W,on clergy: misconduct, business sector etc. whether the Northern Ireland Minister of Health, Social Each lender has access to the EFG web portal through Services and Public Safety has responded to his invitation which they administer the EFG eligibility criteria. The to assist him in progressing the issue of clergy misconduct main EFG eligibility criteria and a full list of accredited and sexual abuse pursuant to the commission of inquiry lenders is detailed on the BIS website: conducted in the Irish Republic; and if he will make a http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/enterprise/finance/efg/ statement. [322828] page37607.html 1039W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1040W

The level of interest rates and any other fees or Ms Rosie Winterton: The Small Firms Loan Guarantee charges made by lenders in connection with any lending (SFLG) data in the form requested are only available are a matter for the lender concerned. This information from December 2005. The Enterprise Finance Guarantee is not held by the Department. However, we would replaced the Small Firms Loan Guarantee in January expect such charges made in connection with lending 2009. backed by EFG to be line with their normal commercial The breakdown of the number of loans to small lending. businesses based in the Southend, West constituency, As announced in the pre-Budget report in December the Southend Unitary Authority area, the county of 2009, EFG will facilitate lending of up to £500 million Essex and the London region in the amounts specified between 1 April 2010 and 31 March 2011. in each full year from 2006 are as follows: Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister of State, Department Southend, West constituency for Business, Innovation and Skills how many projects 2006 2007 2008 2009 Total have been funded by the Small Firms Loan Guarantee Up to £20,000 10102 Scheme in each region in each year since 2005-06; and £20,001 to 10102 how much funding was provided under the scheme (a) £50,000 to each such project and (b) in total in each of those £50,001 to 10102 £100,000 years. [321942] £100,001 to 20013 £150,000 Ms Rosie Winterton: The Small Firms Loan Guarantee, £150,001 to 00000 which was replaced by the Enterprise Finance Guarantee £200,000 in January 2009, was used to facilitate additional bank £200,000 to 00000 lending to individual businesses rather than to projects. £250,000 As such, it would be inappropriate to detail individual Total 50319 loans on the basis of commercial confidentiality. Southend on Sea unitary authority The number and value of SFLG loans made to 2006 2007 2008 2009 Total businesses within each UK region in each financial year are detailed in the Industrial Development Act Annual Up to £20,000 11204 £20,001 to 20305 report for that respective year. Copies of each report are £50,000 deposited in the Library of the House on publication— £50,001 to 32117 usually in June of each year. £100,000 The House of Commons (HC) numbers for each £100,001 to 20114 £150,000 edition from 2005-06 are as follows: £150,001 to 00000 For the year ended 31 March 2006 - HC 1292, for the year £200,000 ended 31 March 2007 - HC 652, for the year ended 31 March 2008 £200,000 to 00000 - HC 722, and for the year ended 31 March 2009 - HC 668. £250,000 Total 837220 Business: Snow and Ice Essex county Mr. Todd: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2006 2007 2008 2009 Total for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment Up to £20,000 6 2 13 3 24 he has made of the effect on small businesses of the £20,001 to 20 15 22 2 59 recent severe weather conditions; and if he will make a £50,000 statement. [321847] £50,001 to 25 19 30 3 77 £100,000 Ms Rosie Winterton: The Department has not undertaken £100,001 to 766322 £150,000 an assessment of the effect of the recent severe weather £150,001 to 31105 conditions on small businesses specifically. It is likely £200,000 that any negative impact on the economy as a whole £200,000 to 11305 resulting from the recent adverse weather will be largely £250,000 short-term, with some delayed activity shifted to later Total 62447511192 months, for example. The Government continue to London region—police authority area figures not held monitor all relevant factors from a range of sources to 2006 2007 2008 2009 Total inform its assessment of the UK economy. Up to £20,000 38 26 21 1 86 Business: South East £20,001 to 178 126 124 16 444 £50,000 Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister of State, Department £50,001 to 180 155 118 19 472 for Business, Innovation and Skills how many grants to £100,000 £100,001 to 84 66 51 7 208 small firms based in (a) Southend West constituency, £150,000 (b) Southend, (c) Essex and (d) the Metropolitan £150,001 to 16 19 17 2 54 police area of London under the Small Firms Loan £200,000 Guarantee were of an amount between (i) £5,000 and £200,000 to 27 21 12 2 62 £20,000, (ii) £20,001 and £50,000, (iii) £50,001 and £250,000 £100,000, (iv) £100,001 and £150,000, (v) £150,001 and Total 523 413 343 47 1,326 £200,000 and (vi) £200,001 and £250,000 in each of the last five years. [321832] SFLG data by police authority area are not available. 1041W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1042W

Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister of State, Department Ms Rosie Winterton: The number of SFLG loans for Business, Innovation and Skills how many applications made to small firms based in Southend West, Southend for funding under the Small Firms Guarantee Scheme on Sea, Essex and London in each year from 2006 are as have been made by small firms based in (a) Southend follows: West constituency, (b) Southend, (c) Essex and (d) the Metropolitan police area of London in each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement. [321833]

Number 2006 2007 2008 2009 Total

Southend, West constituency 5 0319 Southend on Sea 8 3 7 2 20 Essex 62 44 75 11 192 London 523 413 343 47 1,326

The Enterprise Finance Guarantee replaced the Small The Government do not prescribe the terms, conditions Firms Loan Guarantee in January 2009. Please note the or price that insurance companies may set when offering figures for London are for the region as figures are not insurance. available by police authority area. The matter raised in this question is the responsibility Businesses would apply for a loan from any one of of the Financial Services Authority, whose day-to-day the participating accredited lenders who would assess operations are independent from Government. I have which form of lending, including a SFLG backed loan, asked the FSA to write to my hon. Friend. was most appropriate. We do not hold figures for those businesses which were instead offered a normal commercial Learning Disability loan, or were rejected for failing to meet the lender’s commercial criteria. Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate has Employment Agencies: EU Law been made of the funding required by mainstream further education colleges and training institutions to Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister of State, Department administer the provision of learning for those with for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the learning difficulties and/or disabilities in (a) 2009-10 answer of 22 February 2010, Official Report, column and (b) 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. 289W, on employment agencies: EU, what form the [322923] discussions with interested parties on the drafting of the guidance will take; when he expects those discussions Kevin Brennan: The Department allocates funding to to take place; and from which industry representatives the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) for the provision he plans to seek contributions. [322801] of further education (FE) and training for adult learners aged 19 and over. Planned investment in adult participation Mr. McFadden: The Agency Workers Regulations is £3.4 billion in the 2009/10 financial year increasing to 2010 were laid before Parliament on 21 January 2010. £3.5 billion in the 2010-11 financial year. Accompanying guidance will be drawn up in consultation In 2009/10 academic year the cost of provision for with stakeholders and published in advance of the learners aged 19 or over with learning difficulties and/or regulations coming into force on 1 October 2011. The disabilities (LDD) undertaking provision in mainstream important role this guidance will play has been one of FE colleges and training organisations will be supported the subjects discussed with not only representatives of through the same adult budgets as those learners without the agency work industry but also other stakeholders LDD. during recent consultations preceding the laying of the Learners with LDD in mainstream provision can regulations. have their additional support needs met through Additional We are planning to seek views on the guidance from Learning Support Funding (ALS). For the 2009/10 interested parties later this year including the recruitment academic year around £150 million was allocated to FE sector, employer associations, trade union bodies, SMEs colleges and training organisations for this purpose. and organisations that are large users of temporary However it should be noted that ALS funding is not workers and agency workers themselves. solely for learners with LDD and can also be used to meet the needs of other vulnerable groups. Insurance Funding allocations for 2010/11 academic year are currently under way. It is therefore not possible to Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister of State, provide a funding amount at this stage. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills when he last had discussions with representatives of the Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister of State, Department insurance industry on the adequacy of the information for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what estimate made available to policy-holders on exclusions has been made of the number of people who will be applying to insurance cover. [322452] categorised as having learning difficulties and/or disabilities in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11 under the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I have been asked to reply. provision of the Adult Learner Responsive sub-total 1043W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1044W for the Development Learning category in his Department’s including funding, curriculum, accessibility and the document, Skills Investment Strategy 2010-11, published employment of people with learning disabilities. in November 2009; and if he will make a statement.; Investing in further education (FE) and skills training [322925] for learners with learning difficulties and/or disabilities (2) what estimate has been made of the proportion of remains a priority and we have set out our continuing the cost of meeting the requirements of people with commitment to maintaining the opportunities for this learning difficulties and/or disabilities which will be met group of learners in the Skills Investment Strategy from the provision under the Adult Learner Responsive 2010-11. sub-total for the Developmental Learning category in his Department’s document, Skills Investment Strategy Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2010-11, published in November 2009; and if he will for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what estimate he make a statement; [322926] has made of the number of learners with a learning (a) (3) what estimate he has made of the number of difficulty and (b) disability who will be entitled to a learners of each type classified as learners under the learning difficulty assessment in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) provision of the Adult Learner Responsive sub-total 2010-11; and if he will make a statement; [322737] for the Development Learning category in his Department’s (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to his document, Skills Investment Strategy 2010-11, published Department of education provision for learners with a in November 2009 in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) learning (a) difficulty and (b) disability who have 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. [322927] received a learning difficulty assessment in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. Kevin Brennan: The Department routes funding through [322739] the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) for the provision of further education (FE) and skills training for adult Kevin Brennan [holding answer 15 March 2010]: Learners learners aged 19 and over. aged 19 to 25 entitled to a learning difficulty assessment are covered by a statutory duty placed on the Learning It is for learners to declare whether or not they Skills Council under s139 A of the Learning and Skills consider themselves to have a learning difficulty and/or Act 2000. From 1 April 2010, responsibility will transfer disability. As a result the actual number of learners in to local authorities (LAs) following changes announced this category accessing FE and skills provision will vary in the Learning Skills Act 2008 and the Apprenticeship, from year to year, but we estimate there have been Schools, Children and Learning Act 2009. Such learners around 200,000 each year from 2006/07 academic year will continue to be funded by the Department for to 2008/09 academic year (the most recent year for Children, Schools and Families through the arrangements which complete data are available). with the Young People’s Learning Agency and LAs. Within this overall total, learners with LDD follow This will support the policy that there should be a single various courses, depending on their personal preferences body with responsibility for all young adults with learning or the severity of their disability. It is therefore not difficulties and/or disabilities up to the age of 25 who possible to predict how many learners of the total with require significant levels of support. LDD will pursue courses that would be categorised as It is not possible to separately identify learners in Developmental Learning. The Skills Investment Strategy receipt of S139A assessments. However we are able to 2010-11 does, however, set out the commitment that the estimate that there have been around 200,000 learners total adult FE and skills budget will provide sufficient aged 19 and over in mainstream provision with a self- funding to maintain volumes at the level of previous years. declared disability each year from 2006/07 to 2008/09 academic year (the latest whole year for which data are Mr. Harper: To ask the Minister of State, available). Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what National Measurement System recent representations have been received by his Department on the needs of learners with learning Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister of State, difficulties and disabilities and the strategy document, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Skills investment strategy 2010-11; and if he will make much funding he allocated to the National a statement. [322736] Measurement System in (a) 2009-10 and (b) each of the previous nine financial years. [322324] Kevin Brennan [holding answer 17 March 2010]: The Department has received a range of correspondence Mr. Lammy: The Department’s financial records show and has met with stakeholders in recent weeks in respect that the National Measurement System received the of learners with learning difficulties and disabilities. following funding for the financial years 2002-03 to These representations have covered a number of areas, 2008-09 and the budget for 2009-10 was as follows:

£ million Outturn Budget 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Near cash 1,255 1,256 47 64 63 58 74 63 60 58 Non cash 1— 1—1146-111012 Capita1 1— 1— 13 24 16 4 18 11 12 12 1 Indicates a brace. 2 Represents both resource and capital expenditure—the split of funding (near-cash, non-cash and capital) prior to the financial year 2002-03 is not available. 1045W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1046W

ThefiguresrepresentbothexpenditureonNMSprogrammes Ms Rosie Winterton: In the normal course of business and payments related to the construction of new I have regular meetings with ministerial colleagues on accommodation for the National Physical Laboratory, economic regeneration, including but not limited to initially under a PFI contract, and consequential demolition Birmingham and the West Midlands. These conversations and remediation works. In addition, prior to 2003/04, have included meetings with the Regional Minister, my the budgets for the Materials Measurement and Government hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Mr. Austin). Chemist programmes were not classified as part of the The Government remain committed to economic National Measurement System. regeneration in the West Midlands, as evidenced by the Early Advantage Fund, a new £8 million early stage Post Offices venture capital fund set up in December 2009 by Advantage West Midlands which will make investments of up to £250,000 in young businesses alongside private sector Mr. Paice: To ask the Minister of State, Department investors, and the Manufacturing Technology Centre in for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he Coventry, funding for which was agreed by Government has made of the number of post office branches in (a) on 29 October 2009 and contracts were signed earlier rural and (b) urban areas in (i) England and (ii) Wales this week. in each of the last 10 years. [323246] Regional European Offices Mr. McFadden: I have asked the managing director of Post Office Ltd. to respond directly to the hon. Member Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister of State, and a copy of his reply will be placed in the Libraries of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant the House. to the answer of 10 February 2010, Official Report, column 1128W, on regional European offices, which Regeneration: West Midlands bodies audit the accounts of the regional European offices in Brussels; and whether regional European offices Mr. Godsiff: To ask the Minister of State, Department are deemed to be public authorities for the purposes of for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions UK (a) equality, (b) freedom of information and (c) he has had with ministerial colleagues on Government human rights legislation. [319797] policy for economic regeneration in Birmingham and the West Midlands. [312774] Ms Rosie Winterton: The information is as follows:

Regional European office auditor Public authority status

Advantage West Midlands (AWM)

West Midlands in Europe (WMiE) is managed primarily through the West WMiE is deemed a public authority for the purposes of equality, FOI and Midlands Leaders Board (WMLB). Clement Keys is the appointed auditors for human rights provisions. West Midlands Leaders Board (WMLB). East of England Development Agency (EEDA)

The East of England Brussels office is managed by the East of England The European office is not deemed a public authority for the purposes of regional assembly (EERA). Whiting and Partners is the appointed auditor for equality, FOI and human rights provisions. EERA.

East Midlands Development Agency (EMDA)

The East Midlands’ European office is managed by EMDA. EMDA as a public body is subject to equality, freedom of information and human rights provisions. EMEO is not a legal entity in its own right but as it is line-managed by EMDA it is similarly subject to those provisions. The budget for the office is managed through EMDA’s financial systems and not reported separately. The NAO audit EMDA’s accounts.

London Development Agency (LDA)

The Audit Commission. London’s European office is deemed a public authority for the purposes of equality, FOI and human rights provisions.

North West Development Agency (NWDA)

NWDA occupies one room within the North West England Brussels office. The The Brussels office is not a public authority in its own right and it is not a lease is held by Wigan MBC on behalf of regional partners, including NWDA. separate legal entity. Each occupier of the Brussels office is audited under their own separate arrangements. The budget for NWDA’s occupation is a separate cost centre within NWDA accounts, which is subject to audit by the NAO.

One North East (ONE)

ONE manages the European office on behalf of a regional partnership and ONE as a public body is subject to equality, freedom of information and subject to a legally binding regional partnership agreement and associated human rights provisions. The regional European office is not a legal entity in its management structures. The office is audited by ONE. ONE accounts are own right but as it is line-managed by ONE it is similarly subject to those audited by the NAO. provisions. 1047W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1048W

Regional European office auditor Public authority status

South East of England Development Agency (SEEDA) SEEDA’s Brussels office forms part of a facility that is managed by Kent The European office is not deemed a public authority for the purposes of county council. The accounts are audited by the Audit Commission. equality, FOI and human rights provisions.

South West Regional Development Agency (SWRDA) The accounts for the South West Brussels Office (SWUKBO) partnership are The European office is not deemed a public authority for the purposes of currently managed by Somerset county council. The SWUKBO Management equality, FOI and human rights provisions. Board endorses the accounts on a six monthly basis. The South West RDA’s contribution to SWUKBO is subject to audit by the NAO.

Yorkshire Forward (YF) Yorkshire Forward’s Brussels office is not a separate legal entity. YF’s accounts Yorkshire Forward as a public body is subject to equality, freedom of include the expenditure of the Brussels office, and it is therefore audited information and human rights provisions. Yorkshire Forward’s Brussels office through the NAO. is not a legal entity in its own right but as it is line-managed by Yorkshire Forward it is similarly subject to those provisions.

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister of State, the Metropolitan Police and the London Fire and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Emergency Planning Authority—to the EU institutions. pursuant to the answer of 10 February 2010, Official This contribution is included within the ‘Reduce Report, column 1128W, on regional European offices, if Disparities in Labour Market’ expenditure line of the he will place in the Library a copy of the accounts of segmental analysis on page 26 of the annual statement each of the regional European offices that are held by of accounts for 2008-09: each regional development agency. [319798] http://www.lda.gov.uk/upload/pdf/LDA_Statement_ of_Accounts_2008_2009.pdf Ms Rosie Winterton: The information requested is as North West Development Agency (NWDA) follows. NWDA does not manage the North West England Advantage West Midlands (AWM) Brussels Office and as such does not hold accounts for The latest accounts West Midlands in Europe are the office. Information on NWDA’s contribution to the publicly available on the West Midlands in Europe office is contained in NWDA’s accounts and is available website: online: http://www.westmidlandsineurope.org/public_docs/ http://www.nwda.co.uk/media-library/publications/corporate/ WMiE_Audit_report_2008-09.pdf nwda-accounts-and-financial-st.aspx East of England Development Agency (EEDA) One North East (ONE) The East of England Development Agency does not ONE does not hold the separate accounts for the manage the East of England European Office and Brussels office as the figures are incorporated into therefore does not hold this information. ONE’s annual accounts. Management Accounts have a The East of England European Office is managed by completed Income and Expenditure account for 2008-09 the East of England Regional Assembly on behalf of which are available online: the East of England European Partnership. This is a http://www.onenortheast.co.uk/lib/liReport/15127/ region-wide partnership of mainly local authorities, One%20North%20East%20Annual%20Report%20 EEDA, and the Government Office for the East of and%20Accounts%202008-9%20with%20annex%2010.7.09% England. All members subscribe to the running costs of 20small.pdf the office. South East of England Development Agency (SEEDA) East Midlands Development Agency (EMDA) SEEDA’s Brussels office forms part of a facility that The East Midlands European Office is a partnership is managed by Kent county council. SEEDA does not organisation, with 21 contributing partners, line-managed manage the Brussels office and therefore does not hold by the East Midlands Development Agency. As such it its accounts. SEEDA is one of a range of partners that is not a legally recognised entity and does not have contribute to the running costs of the premises. SEEDA independent accounts. The budget for the office is managed does not show expenditure for the Brussels office separately through the EMDA financial systems and not reported in the annual accounts—this expenditure is included in separately. EMDA’s accounts are held in the Library the figure for ‘Other administrative costs’ on page 48 of and can be found on the EMDA website: the annual accounts and ‘Office and rent costs’ under note5onpage57. www.emda.org.uk/about/annualreport.asp London Development Agency (LPA) SEEDA’s 2008-09 annual accounts can be accessed online: The LDA does not manage the London European http://www.seeda.co.uk/_documentbank/annualReport Office and as such does not hold accounts for the office. Accounts20082009.pdf In financial year 2008-09 the LDA contributed £50,000 to the London European Office which is part of the South West Regional Development Agency (SWRDA) Greater London Authority (GLA) and represents the The South West UK Brussels Office (SWUKBO) is a Mayor of London and the GLA’s functional bodies— partnership organisation, with 17 contributing partners. Transport for London, the London Development Agency, The South West RDA does not hold the accounts for 1049W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1050W

SWUKBO as Somerset county council currently manages Venture Capital: Wales them on behalf of the partnership. The South West RDA’s contribution to the South Hywel Williams: Toask the Minister of State, Department West Brussels Office is funded by a project that falls for Business, Innovation and Skills how much was spent under the “Vision and Leadership” accounts budget from the (a) UK High Technology Fund, (b) Regional line. Programme expenditure for Vision and Leadership Venture Capital Funds, (c) Community Development is published in our Annual Report and Financial Statements Venture (Bridges) Funds, (d) Early Growth Funds, (e) 2008-09, p63. This can be accessed online: Enterprise Capital Funds, (f) Aspire Fund and (g) http://www.southwestrda.org.uk/resources/publications.aspx Capital for Enterprise Fund in Wales in each year for Yorkshire Forward (YF) which figures are available. [321953] This information cannot be distinguished from Yorkshire Forward’s main accounts. Yorkshire Forward’s annual Ms Rosie Winterton [holding answer 12 March 2010]: accounts are available online: As at 31 December 2009 four SMEs located in Wales http://www.yorkshire-forward.com//sites/default/files/ had received investment support totalling £2.1 million documents/Annual%20report%202008_09.pdf as follows:

Investment Fund Year Amount invested (£) Comment

Investment 1 UK High Technology Fund 2003 400,000 Investment 2 Early Growth Fund 2004-08 400,000 SME relocated to Wales post initial investment of £100,000 in 2003, follow on investments of £100,000 in 2005, 2006, 2007 Investment 3 Enterprise Capital Fund 2007 800,000 2008 300,000 Follow on investment in 2009 Investment 4 Enterprise Capital Fund 2009 200,000

CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES Specific funding per school will be approved as part of the Outline Business Case. Building Schools for the Future Programme: Funding will begin to be paid when Buckinghamshire Buckinghamshire reach financial close on these schools. Current timescales suggest that this will be 2012-13. Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much funding has Children: Social Services been allocated to each school in Buckinghamshire under the Building Schools for the Future scheme; and Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, when he expects each grant to be paid to the local Schools and Families what the average tenure was of education authority. [322935] the Director of Children’s Services in each local authority in the last 10 years. [321085] Mr. Coaker: The indicative funding allocation for Buckinghamshire’s top priority project is set out in the Mr. Coaker: The Department does not collect this following table: information. £ School Capital value ICT Choice Advisers: Expenditure

Chesham Park 11,716,354 1,190,450 Community College Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Burnham Upper 10,601,747 1,039,650 Schools and Families how much his Department spent Mandeville School 13,405,270 1,421,000 on Choice Advisers in the latest year for which figures (Aylesbury) are available. [321204] The Grange 16,906,257 1,899,500 Aylesbury Ms Diana R. Johnson: Choice Advice is an independent Buckingham Upper 14,738,203 1,605,150 service commissioned by local authorities to support School the parents who find it hardest to engage with and Furze Down (SEN) 6,112,666 139,200 (Winslow) navigate the admissions system to make informed decisions Total 73,480,497 7,294,950 about which secondary schools will best meet their child’s needs. The funding is indicative and has been calculated £6 million has been provided for each of the five following the established Building Schools for the Future financial years 2006-2007 to 2010-2011. This is made up funding methodology of 50 per cent. new build, 35 per of £5.6 million for local authorities directly and £400,000 cent. major refurbishment and 15 per cent. minor for quality assurance, support and evaluation. Each refurbishment as outlined in the funding guidance available local authority has been allocated £15,000 each year on the Partnerships for Schools website. with an additional sum weighted on deprivation. 1051W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1052W

Departmental Advertising Expenditure on refurbishments was higher during 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10, owing to an estate Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for rationalisation programme which included the Children, Schools and Families what advertising refurbishment of Sanctuary Buildings. The cost of the campaigns his Department has been responsible for in work was paid for in just over one year by the savings (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10; which campaigns have (i) from vacating Caxton House, which has saved about commenced and (ii) continued in 2009-10; and what the £13 million per annum in running costs. cost of each such campaign has been. [311818] Total spend by DCSF on office refurbishments (£) Ms Diana R. Johnson: The requested information is outlined in the following tables. The figures include 2007/08 6,827,036 media spend but do not include production and fees. 2008/09 4,099,898 Table 1 contains the advertising campaigns run by 2009/10 3,585,353 the Department in 2008-09 that continued in 2009-10, along with expenditure. Departmental Disabled Staff Table 2 contains advertising campaigns that commenced in 2008-09, but not continued into 2009-10, and those Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for that commenced in 2009-10, along with expenditure. Children, Schools and Families how many and what Advertising spend for 2009-10 is up to and including 16 proportion of staff in his Department are disabled; and January 2010. what the average salary in his Department is of (a) Table 1 full-time disabled staff, (b) full-time non-disabled staff, £ (c) part-time disabled staff and (d) part-time non- Advertising spend disabled staff. [317907] Campaign 2008/09 2009/10

Diplomas 2,432,819 340,483 Ms Diana R. Johnson: Data from the last Annual DCSF—STEM 1,753,550 1,249,854 Civil Service Employment Service undertaken in March Frank 977,559 1,180,000 2009 shows that 8 per cent. of DCSF staff have declared Alcohol and Young People Campaign 1,160,103 1,122,954 themselves as having a disability. Teenage Pregnancy 1,527,527 468,110 Information on the average salaries of disabled and DCSF—Modern Foreign Languages 1,719,247 1,079,987 part time staff is not available in the form requested and Parent Know How 0 13,037 could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. DCSF Summer Holidays Affordable 202,543 229,490 Information on pay in respect of part time staff in the Childcare DCSF and pay in respect of disabled staff in the civil DCSF Diploma Employer Engagement 602,300 3,413 service as a whole is available from Civil Service Statistics Total 10,375,648 5,687,328 tables at: Table 2 http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_labour/Civil- £ service-tables-2009-final.xls Advertising spend Campaign 2008/09 2009/10 Departmental Energy DCSF—Guardian Education 11,040 — Advertorial Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for DCSF—Early Years Foundation 23,542 — Children, Schools and Families what steps his 14-19 Reform Campaign 941,597 — Department plans to take to participate in the Earth Diplomas March Campaign 1,885,861 — Hour event on 27 March 2010. [319088] ParentLine March Campaign 41,535 — Who Do We Think We Are 2,433 — Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department will take part National Year of Reading 259,682 — in the Earth Hour event on the 27 of March by ensuring 14-19 Reform Campaign — 8,766 essential lighting only is operating in our buildings. We DCSF—Contact Points Advertorials — 35,175 will also be publicising this event on our intranet to give Help Give Them a Voice—Social — 636,541 Work Recruitment our staff an opportunity to take part as individuals. Diplomas TV 2009/10 — 1,326,126 Surestart — 1,275,740 Departmental ICT Total 3,165,690 3,282,348 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Departmental Buildings for Children, Schools and Families what information technology projects initiated by his Department were Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State cancelled prior to completion in the last 12 months; for Children, Schools and Families how much his and what the cost of each such project was to the Department has spent on office refurbishments in each public purse. [320433] year since its inception. [320504] Ms Diana R. Johnson: No records can be found of Ms Diana R. Johnson: Spend by the Department any information technology projects initiated by the since its inception date of 28 June 2007 is shown in the Department that were cancelled prior to completion for table. the period 1 April 2009 to 9 March 2010. 1053W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1054W

Departmental Legal Costs Ms Diana R. Johnson: There are currently 31 individuals in the Department that have been declared surplus from Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, their previous post; seven of these have been without a Schools and Families how much his Department and its permanent post for more than six months. predecessors have spent in (a) legal fees and (b) All of our surplus staff are actively engaged in delivering compensation on legal cases concerning remuneration a range of departmental projects or business priorities, of its employees in each of the last 10 years. [322057] while seeking a new permanent post with the help of our Brokerage Service. These individuals are known as Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department was established ’Priority Movers’ and receive tailored support to find in June 2007 and there have been no cases concerning suitable permanent posts either in the Department or employee remuneration. We do not have access to records elsewhere (including other Government Departments). for employees who have moved to other Government The average time that individuals spend as a Priority Departments as part of the Machinery of Government Mover is two months. None of our Priority Movers changes. have left the Department through compulsory redundancy. Information on Priority Mover numbers and salary Departmental Location costs for the past five years is either not available or is disproportionate cost. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much his Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Department spent on the relocation of staff from posts in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point constituency in each Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State of the last five years. [321435] for Children, Schools and Families how many full-time equivalent staff of each grade are employed by his Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department for Children, Department to assist special advisers. [321130] Schools and Families was formed in June 2007. The Department is not located in Essex and therefore there Ms Diana R. Johnson: The special advisers’ support have been no relocations. office consists of 1.5 full-time equivalent staff, as follows: 0.5 Higher Executive Officer (HEO) Departmental Lost Property 0.5 Executive Officer (EO) 0.5 Executive Assistant (EA). John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Plants Children, Schools and Families what property has been recorded as (a) lost and (b) stolen from his Department in the last 12 months; and what estimate David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for has been made of the cost of the replacement of that Children, Schools and Families how much (a) his Department property. [322070] and (b) its agencies has spent on pot plants in (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2008-09 and (iii) 2009-10. [319197] Ms Diana R. Johnson: The following table gives a breakdown of reported lost or stolen property from the Ms Diana R. Johnson: Spend by the Department for Department of Children, Schools and Families in the Children, Schools and Families on pot plants in the last last 12 month period April 2009 to March 2010. two financial years and the current financial year to date is shown in the table. The Department does not Total estimated have any agencies. cost of Expenditure on pot plants was higher during these (a) Lost (b) Stolen Total replacement (£) financial years due to a refurbishment programme at Laptops — 4 5 3,824.00 Sanctuary Buildings. Blackberry 9 8 16 944.00 £ PDAs (not 1 — 1 0.00 replaced) 2007-08 42,820.00 Memory 2 — 2 294.00 2008-09 32,965.00 stick 2009-10 5,845.00 Staff passes 95 17 112 579.04 Total 16 11 27 5,641.00 Departmental Travel

Departmental Manpower John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much his Department has Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State spent on international travel since May 2007. [317049] for Children, Schools and Families how many employees in his Department are in transition prior to Ms Diana R. Johnson: The following table details the being managed out; how long on average the transition amount spent by the Department for Children, Schools window between notification and exit has been in his and Families on international travel for the last two Department and its predecessors and in each of the last financial years for which figures are currently available. five years; what estimate he has made of the salary The amount expended for each year includes the cost of costs of staff in transition in each such year; and what overseas rail, air, car and other travel in addition to the proportion of employees in transition were classed as cost of overnight accommodation and travel allowances being so for more than six months in each year. [313248] paid to individual members of staff. 1055W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1056W

Free School Meals £ Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 (April 2007 to March 2008) 169,771 Children, Schools and Families what proportion of children at (a) denominational primary schools, (b) 2008-09 (April 2008 to March 2009) 192,016 denominational secondary schools, (c) maintained primary schools, (d) maintained secondary schools, Note: Figures have been rounded to the nearest £. (e) grammar schools and (f) academies was entitled to free school meals in (i) 2008 and (ii) 2009. [318192] Figures for 2009-10 will not be available until the end Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information requested is of the current financial year. shown in the table.

Number and percentage of pupils known to be eligible for free school meals1, position in January each year: 2008 and 2009, coverage: England 2008 2009 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of pupils known to pupils known to pupils known to pupils known to be eligible for be eligible for be eligible for be eligible for Number on roll2 free meals free meals Number on roll2 free meals free meals

Maintained primary 4,090,400 638,310 15.6 4,077,350 653,600 16.0 schools3 of which: Denominational 1,201,600 136,220 11.3 1,201,590 142,260 11.8 primary schools3

LA maintained 3,214,030 410,810 12.8 3,152,800 406,450 12.9 secondary schools3, 4, 5 of which: Denominational 523,3705 7,420 11.0 522,910 58,220 11.1 secondary schools3, 4, 5 Grammar schools 157,450 3,030 1.9 158,650 3,210 2.0

All academies 74,530 21,630 29.0 121,950 32,110 26.3 Academies open in 74,530 21,630 29.0 79,220 23,220 29.3 both 2008 and 2009 1 Those eligible may choose not to take up their offer of a free school meal for various reasons e.g. through preference or through non-attendance on the day. Pupils are counted as eligible only if they meet the eligibility criteria and make a claim. 2 Includes all full-time and part-time pupils who are sole or dual main registrations. Includes boarders. 3 Includes middle schools as deemed. 4 Excludes academies. 5 Includes grammar schools. Note: Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Census.

Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Ms Diana R. Johnson: Of the pupils at the end of Key Children, Schools and Families what proportion of Stage 4 in comprehensive1 schools that achieved seven children in each local authority area is eligible to or more GCSEs at grade A*-G or the equivalent: receive free school meals. [321940] 470,044 achieved English GCSE; 390,621 achieved English literature GCSE; Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information requested can 469,500 achieved mathematics GCSE; be found in tables 11a, 11b and 11c in the ‘Schools, Pupils and Their Characteristics: January 2009’, Statistical 151,155 achieved history GCSE; First Release at: 53,353 achieved physics GCSE; http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000843/ 55,035 achieved biology GCSE; index.shtml 53,501 achieved chemistry GCSE. 1 Including academies and city technology colleges. GCSE Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many and what Children, Schools and Families how many pupils in proportion of (a) male and (b) female students gained comprehensive schools achieved seven or more GCSEs, (i) five GCSEs including English and mathematics at including (a) English language, (b) English literature, grades A* to C, (ii) five GCSEs at grades A* to G and (c) mathematics, (d) history, (e) physics, (f) biology (iii) at least one GCSE pass in each year since 1997. and (g) chemistry in 2009. [304903] [310563] 1057W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1058W

Mr. Coaker [holding answer 13 January 2010]: The Manchester, Gorton constituency, the effects on that answer to this question can be provided only at constituency of the policies of his Department and its disproportionate cost. predecessors since 1997. [322142]

Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Mr. Coaker: Since 1997 the Government have Schools and Families how many and what proportion transformed education and child care with improved of pupils (a) entitled and (b) not entitled to free school outcomes for children and young people. Figures showing meals attained five GCSEs at grades A* to C, including the performance at key stage 2 and at GCSE and English and mathematics in each constituency in the equivalents in Manchester, Gorton are given in the latest year for which figures are available. [317730] following tables: Key stage 2 results of 11 year old pupils attending schools1 in the Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information requested for Manchester, Gorton constituency pupils attending maintained schools (including city Percentage technology colleges and academies) has been placed in point the House Libraries. Percentage of pupils improvement gaining level 4 and 1997 to GCSE: Leeds above 1997 20092 2009 Manchester, Gorton Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for English 53 74 21 Children, Schools and Families what proportion of pupils in state schools in Leeds North West constituency Maths 49 79 30 achieved five GCSEs including mathematics and English Science 54 86 32 in (a) 1997 and (b) the most recent year for which figures are available. [322697] England English 63 80 17 Mr. Coaker: The requested information is provided in Maths 62 79 17 the following table for the 2003/04 and the 2008/09 Science 68 88 20 academic years. Information about whether a pupil 1 Includes pupils attending all maintained schools (including Academies achieved five or more GCSEs or equivalent including and City Technology Colleges). English and maths GCSEs has only been available on 2 Revised data. the Department’s National Pupil Database since the Source: School and College Achievement and Attainment Tables 2003/04 academic year. GCSE and equivalents1 results for pupils2 attending schools3 in the Percentage of pupils attending maintained schools1 in Leeds, North- Manchester, Gorton constituency West constituency2 achieving five or more GCSEs or equivalent3 Percentage including English and mathematics GCSEs, 2003/04 and 2008/094 point 2003/04 2008/09 improvement Percentage of pupils 1997 to Percentage of pupils in Leeds, North- 89.7 91.3 gaining 1997 20095 2009 West constituency achieving five or more GCSEs or equivalent including Manchester Gorton English and mathematics GCSEs 5+ A*-C 19.4 63:7 44.3 1 All maintained schools (including city technology colleges and 5+ A*-G 73.7 84.3 10.6 academies). 2 Parliamentary constituency figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. England 3 Figures for 2003/04 include GNVQ equivalences and in 2008/09 5+ A*-C4 45.1 70.0 24.9 other equivalences approved for use pre-16. 4 Figures for 2003/04 are based on pupils aged 15 years old at the start 5+ A*-G4 86.4 92.3 5.9 of the academic year. Figures for 2008/09 are based on pupils at the 1 From 2004 results incorporate GCSEs, GNVQs and a range of other end of Key Stage 4. qualifications approved pre-16. Prior to 2004 results are based on Source: GCSEs and GNVQs only. National Pupil Database and Achievement and Attainment Tables 2 From 2006 figures are for pupils at the end of key stage 4. Prior to (2003/04 final data, 2008/09 amended data) 2006 results are based on pupils aged 15. 3 Includes pupils attending all maintained schools (including academies Grammar Schools: Free School Meals and city technology colleges) and from 2000 does not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 4 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for England figures also include independent schools as well as hospital schools and PRUs. Children, Schools and Families what grammar schools 5 Revised data. there are in each local authority; and what percentage Source: of children attending each school is eligible to receive School and College Achievement and Attainment Tables free school meals. [321892] Further information by constituency is provided within Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information requested has the Department’s ‘In Your Area’ website available at: been placed in the House Libraries. http://www.dfes.gov.uk/inyourarea Information available at constituency level includes the Greater Manchester number of specialist schools, number of operational academies, number of teaching assistants and other Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for support staff, number of teachers and pupil:teacher Children, Schools and Families if he will set out, with ratios. Where information is not available at constituency statistical information related as directly as possible to level it has been provided at local authority level. 1059W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1060W

Additional information could be provided only at Primary Education: Drama disproportionate cost. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Education: Inspections Children, Schools and Families what steps he is taking to increase the quality and quantity of drama provision Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for in the primary school curriculum. [321717] Children, Schools and Families whether all home educated children would receive a visit from a local Ms Diana R. Johnson: Drama forms a major part of authority inspector by April 2012 under the provisions both the Understanding the Arts and Understanding proposed in the Children, Schools and Families Bill. English, communication and languages areas of learning [322663] within the new primary curriculum. In both areas children should experience working with artists and performing Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 16 March to others. In addition, in both the Children’s Plan and 2010]: The Children, Schools and Families Bill places the Pupil Guarantee we have made clear our aspiration local authorities under a duty to make arrangements to that all children and young people should experience hold at least one meeting with the child and the parents five hours of quality cultural activity in and out of in the registration period. We envisage that regulations school each week. This includes both taking part in, and guidance supporting monitoring will be in place by and being part of the audience for, drama. April 2011, which will enable monitoring to start. We have not consulted on the arrangements for rolling out the new provisions but we envisage that all home educated Public Holidays children known to the local authority will have had a visit arranged by April 2012 if they were on the register Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for in April 2011. Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has made of the cost to his Department of the introduction Languages: Education of an additional public holiday; and if he will make a statement. [315124] Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the purpose was of his Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department does not Department’s Je suis un Rockstar advertising anticipate any additional salary costs resulting from the programme. [315164] extra public holiday in 2012.

Ms Diana R. Johnson: Je Suis Un Rock Star was Schools developed in partnership with Channel 4 as part of the Modern Foreign Languages (MFL) campaign. Its aim was to address the social and cultural barriers which Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for prevent young people learning languages and focus on Children, Schools and Families how many children raising the value of languages. The message of Je Suis attended (a) two, (b) three, (c) four and (d) five Un Rock Star to young people was ″if you learn a schools in 1980. [311158] language it will open up experiences and opportunities which you might otherwise be denied″. Mr. Coaker: The information requested is not available. The pupil level data required to carry out such analysis Literacy: Primary Education have only been collected since 2005/06 for secondary schools and since 2006/07 for primary and special schools. Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many primary schools in the Schools: Fires maintained sector are using Letters and Sounds (a) exclusively and (b) in combination with one or more commercial phonics programmes; and how many are Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State not using it. [315645] for Children, Schools and Families (1) how many fires have been reported in schools in each year since 2005; Ms Diana R. Johnson: We do not collect information [322414] on ″Letters and Sounds″. Schools are free to choose (2) how many fires in schools have been classed as whichever phonics product best suits their needs. We do arson in each year since 2005; [322415] not ask schools to supply us with information on the (3) how many fatalities and injuries have there been products they use. in fires in schools in each year since 2005; [322416] Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, (4) what estimate his Department has made of the Schools and Families whether the Letters and Sound average cost to the public purse of a school fire in the reading programme is owned by (a) his Department or latest period for which figures are available. [322417] (b) another organisation. [318411] Mr. Coaker [holding answer 17 March 2010]: The Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 24 February latest confirmed figures we have from the Department 2010]: ’Letters and Sounds’ is the Primary National for Communities and Local Government (CLG) for Strategy’s phonics teaching programme. It is owned by England and Wales cover the period 2005-07, and are the Department for Children, Schools and Families. shown in the following tables. 1061W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1062W

The legal requirements for fire safety measures in Number of fires (%) arson Number schools are set by Building Regulations, which prioritise the life safety of pupils, teachers and other users—not 2005 1,102 44 485 the protection of property. Sprinklers are not required 2006 1,075 41 441 for life safety as they are primarily a property protection 2007 825 42 347 measure. Therefore a school building designed to the Building Regulations should be safe whether or not it Fires in schools by cause of fire, England, 2005-2007 includes sprinklers. Total Accidental Deliberate Information is not collected centrally about which 2005 1,102 615 487 schools in Coventry have sprinklers fitted. However, 2006 1,075 639 436 Coventry city council has a policy to fit fire sprinkler 2007 825 480 345 systems in all its new and refurbished schools.

Fatalities and injuries in schools in each year since 2005 Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Injuries aged 18 yrs or Injuries aged for Children, Schools and Families how many school All fatalities over 0-17 years Unspecified fires which have occurred since 2004 were investigated by police as suspicious fires. [322900] 2005 0 33 12 1 2006 0 19 7 — Mr. Coaker: This information is not collected centrally. 2007 0 26 6 — Schools: Libraries The last year for which CLG has cost figures is 2004, when 1,229 fires were estimated to cost around £52 million1, Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for an average of £42,311. Children, Schools and Families what his Department’s 1 The costs are rounded to the nearest £1 million and policy is on whether books should be banned from are derived from the CLG’s cost of Fire Estimates. school libraries in circumstances where they have been They cover property damage and the costs of the fire held to breach laws against incitement; and if he will and rescue services attending the fires. They do not make a statement. [311458] include costs of any fires not attended by the Fire and Rescue Services. Ms Diana R. Johnson: The provision of a school See also: library is not a statutory requirement. It is for schools themselves to determine the nature and extent of their http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/researchand statistics/ school library provision. It is also for schools themselves statistics/ to determine which books they stock in their libraries, while ensuring they are in line with their particular Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State ethos and comply with their legal and regulatory obligations. for Children, Schools and Families (1) how many The Museums, Libraries and Archives Council published schools follow the Building Bulletin 100 guidance on in February 2009 guidance on the management of fire sprinklers issued by his Department; and what controversial material in public libraries, which schools mechanisms are in place to ensure this guidance is can use to help them. followed; [322898] It is a criminal offence under section 19 of the Public (2) how many schools in Coventry are fitted with fire Order Act 1986 to publish or distribute written material sprinklers. [322899] which is threatening, abusive or insulting and is likely to stir up racial hatred. It is an offence under section 23 of Mr. Coaker: On 1 March 2007 my right hon. Friend that Act to possess such material. Therefore a school the Member for South Dorset (Jim Knight), the then library containing such material may be committing a Minister of State for Schools launched the policy to criminal offence, and could be subject to prosecution. install fire sprinkler systems to protect the fabric of new Also, schools have a duty under section 71 of the schools. This was included in Building Bulletin 100 later Race Relations Act 1976 to eliminate unlawful racial that year. It is best practice to provide sprinkler systems discrimination and to promote equality of opportunity in new school buildings and major refurbishments and and good relations between persons of different racial DCSF encourages and expects client bodies to install groups. Holding books which breach laws against incitement them. Only those buildings which are unsuitable or of could lead to intervention by the Equality and Human very low risk should not now include sprinklers. Rights Commission. Partnerships for Schools monitors which schools in Finally, schools are under a duty to promote community the Building Schools for the Future (BSF) programme cohesion, which is also inspected by Ofsted to ensure include sprinkler systems and encourages local authorities compliance. Any controversial books or material in and other client bodies to include sprinklers in all new schools which could lead to incitement could be a schools through BSF procurement documents. This breach of this duty. approach has resulted in over 70 per cent. of current new secondary schools in BSF including sprinkler systems. Schools: Special Educational Needs Before the introduction of the policy less than 10 per cent. of new schools had sprinkler systems fitted. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for We do not have figures for how many schools procured Children, Schools and Families how many schools for outside the Building Schools for the Future Secondary pupils with special educational needs have (a) opened School programme include sprinkler systems. and (b) closed in England since 1997. [321445] 1063W Written Answers18 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 1064W

Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 10 March in 1997 and (b) on the latest date for which figures are 2010]: We have data on the overall number of maintained available. [322631] special schools. In 1997, there were 1,171 maintained special schools. By 2009, there were 985 such schools—a Mr. Coaker: The information requested is published net reduction of 186. The rate of reduction of maintained in table 19 of the Statistical First Release (SFR) ’School special schools has slowed down; between the years Workforce In England (including local authority level 1986 and 1997 there was a reduction of 234. figures) January 2009 (Revised)’ published on 29 September Since 1997-98, local authorities have: 2009. The SFR is available at the following web link: built or rebuilt more than 100 new special schools; http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000874/ Tables19to27v2.xls significantly refurbished by more than 50 per cent. of the total floor space of a further 125 special schools; Teaching Methods delivered more than 430 new SEN units at mainstream schools; funded SEN improvements at more than 500 mainstream Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for schools. Children, Schools and Families what steps he is taking Specialised Diplomas: Finance to ensure the provision of one-to-one tuition for pupils with (a) high and (b) low attainment at Key Stage 1. [321714] Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much he expects to spend on Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Government have committed 14 to 19 diplomas in each of the next five years; and if to the national roll-out of the Every Child a Reader and he will make a statement. [321273] Every Child Counts programmes, which provide one-to-one interventions for the lowest attaining children. We also Mr. Iain Wright: Estimated forecast expenditure on expect schools to provide personalised learning for all diplomas for 2010-11 is £198.3 million. Diploma spending their pupils including high attaining gifted and talented plans beyond the 2010-11 financial year will be considered pupils. The Pupil and Parent Guarantees, which will as part of the next spending review and funding levels come into force in September 2010, will entitle pupils will be determined at that stage. not making good progress in mathematics or English at Teachers: Pay Key Stage 1 to catch-up support. They will also ensure that parents or carers are informed when their child is identified as gifted and talented and of the support and Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for challenge the school will provide. Children, Schools and Families what the average salary of a teacher in (a) Leeds North West constituency and Trade Unions (b) England was in the most recent year for which figures are available. [322696] Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many days staff of his Mr. Coaker: The information requested is not available Department and its agencies spent on trade union for Leeds North West constituency because it is not activity in the latest year for which figures are available; possible to verify the reliability of the data source at the and what recent estimate he has made of the annual constituency level. cost to the public purse of such activity. [320666] The average salary of a teacher in service in local authority maintained schools in Leeds local authority is Ms Diana R. Johnson: At the end of the last calendar £34,900 and £35,900 in England, in March 2008, the year, there were four full-time members of staff engaged latest information available. in national full-time trade union activity and their annual wage bill is £118,000. Other staff in the Department are Teachers: Wolverhampton occasionally engaged in trade union-related work but the information is held locally, not centrally, and can be Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State obtained only at disproportionate cost. for Children, Schools and Families how many teachers The Department is moving to three full-time posts in were employed in state schools in Wolverhampton (a) the coming year at an estimated cost of £85,000. ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 18 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 951 TRANSPORT—continued Barking to Gospel Oak Line ...... 958 Topical Questions ...... 962 Car Journeys...... 959 Traffic Congestion ...... 957 Cycling and Motorcycling Accidents ...... 961 Vehicle Cloning...... 956 Drink-Driving...... 959 EU Legislation (Buses)...... 957 Heathrow (Air Quality)...... 960 WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 966 High Speed Rail ...... 951 Access to Information (People with Disabilities).... 971 Light Pollution...... 953 Domestic Violence ...... 968 New Rolling Stock ...... 954 Equality and Human Rights Commission...... 966 Rail Ticket Information ...... 961 Police Stop and Search...... 970 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 18 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 68WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 75WS Capenhurst Nuclear Site ...... 68WS Intelligence and Security Committee Annual Report (2009-2010) ...... 75WS HEALTH...... 69WS Health Select Committee Report on Alcohol TRANSPORT ...... 75WS (Government Response)...... 69WS EU Transport Council ...... 76WS New Vans (Carbon Dioxide Regulation)...... 75WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 70WS Immigration Rules ...... 71WS TREASURY ...... 67WS Protecting Crowded Places from Terrorist Attack .. 70WS State of the Estate...... 68WS Retention and Disclosure of Records Terrorist Asset-Freezing...... 67WS (Independent Review) ...... 73WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 77WS JUSTICE...... 73WS Discretionary Social Fund ...... 77WS HM Courts Service Estates ...... 73WS ICL Inquiry Report (Government Response)...... 77WS PETITIONS

Thursday 18 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 15P Second Entrance to Higham Ferrers College ...... 15P

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 16P Bridleways (Canvey Island)...... 16P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 18 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1038W CABINET OFFICE...... 1029W Business: Government Assistance ...... 1038W Business: Closures...... 1029W Business: Snow and Ice ...... 1039W Cabinet: Exeter ...... 1030W Business: South East ...... 1039W Civil Servants: Milton Keynes...... 1030W Employment Agencies: EU Law ...... 1041W Electorate: British Nationals Abroad...... 1031W Insurance ...... 1041W Office for National Statistics ...... 1031W Learning Disability ...... 1042W Public Expenditure...... 1032W National Measurement System ...... 1044W Post Offices ...... 1045W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 1049W Regeneration: West Midlands ...... 1045W Building Schools for the Future Programme: Regional European Offices...... 1046W Buckinghamshire ...... 1049W Venture Capital: Wales...... 1050W Children: Social Services...... 1050W Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Choice Advisers: Expenditure ...... 1050W Natural Gas: Imports...... 1029W Departmental Advertising...... 1051W Departmental Buildings...... 1051W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Departmental Disabled Staff...... 1052W AFFAIRS...... 999W Departmental Energy...... 1052W Agriculture...... 999W Departmental ICT ...... 1052W Animal Welfare Act 2006 ...... 1000W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 1053W Batteries: Recycling...... 1000W Departmental Location...... 1053W Biomass: Air Pollution...... 1001W Departmental Lost Property ...... 1053W Birds: Disease Control ...... 1001W Departmental Manpower...... 1053W Cattle: Disease Control ...... 1001W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 1054W Cattle: Diseases...... 1002W Departmental Plants ...... 1054W Cetaceans: Conservation...... 1003W Departmental Travel ...... 1054W Dairy Products: Meat...... 1004W Free School Meals...... 1056W Departmental Internet ...... 1005W GCSE ...... 1055W Dogs ...... 1006W GCSE: Leeds ...... 1057W Environment Protection: Powers of Entry ...... 1007W Grammar Schools: Free School Meals...... 1057W Horses: Disease Control...... 1007W Greater Manchester ...... 1057W Livestock ...... 1008W Home Education: Inspections ...... 1059W Nature Conservation...... 1008W Languages: Education...... 1059W Noise...... 1009W Literacy: Primary Education...... 1059W Pet Travel Scheme ...... 1009W Primary Education: Drama...... 1060W Reptiles: Smuggling...... 1009W Public Holidays...... 1060W Seas and Oceans: Environment Protection...... 1011W Schools ...... 1060W Sheep: Tagging...... 1012W Schools: Fires...... 1060W Total Allowable Catches...... 1012W Schools: Libraries ...... 1062W Schools: Special Educational Needs...... 1062W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 972W Specialised Diplomas: Finance...... 1063W British Indian Ocean Territory: Fisheries...... 972W Teachers: Pay ...... 1063W Iran: Nuclear Power...... 972W Teachers: Wolverhampton...... 1063W Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Teaching Methods...... 1064W Development: Israel...... 973W Trade Unions ...... 1064W HEALTH...... 966W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1033W Arthritis ...... 966W Affordable Housing...... 1033W Arthritis: Drugs ...... 966W Council Housing Finance Review ...... 1033W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 966W Departmental Research...... 1033W Health Services: Dance ...... 968W Eco-towns ...... 1034W Health Services: Greater London...... 968W Energy Performance Certificates...... 1034W Hearing Aids...... 967W Green Belt: Property Development ...... 1034W In Vitro Fertilisation ...... 969W Homelessness: Sefton...... 1035W Medical Treatments Abroad...... 969W Housing: Construction...... 1035W Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust ...... 970W Land Use ...... 1036W NHS: Billing ...... 970W Local Government: National Parks Authorities..... 1036W NHS: Contracts ...... 970W Ordnance Survey: Finance ...... 1036W NHS: ICT ...... 971W Social Services...... 971W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1025W Departmental Marketing ...... 1025W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1018W Departmental Surveys...... 1026W Committees...... 1018W Diamond Jubilee 2012...... 1026W Fraud ...... 1019W Flags ...... 1026W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 1019W Flags: Correspondence...... 1027W Motor Vehicles: Seized Articles...... 1020W Olympic Games 2012: Flags...... 1027W Police: Equality...... 1020W St. George’s Day ...... 1028W World Heritage Sites: National Lottery...... 1028W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 971W DEFENCE...... 983W Departmental Energy...... 971W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 983W Parliament: Environment ...... 971W Armed Forces: Expenses ...... 985W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 984W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 996W Armed Forces: Northern Ireland ...... 985W Chile: Earthquakes...... 996W Defence: Expenditure...... 987W Departmental Internet ...... 996W Defence: Scotland ...... 987W Departmental Press Releases...... 997W Princess Royal Barracks...... 987W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 997W Territorial Army: Shropshire...... 987W Departmental Surveys...... 997W Departmental Theft ...... 997W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 972W Developing Countries: Literacy ...... 998W Bearwood Corporate Services ...... 972W Earthquakes: Oxfam ...... 998W Fairtrade Initiative ...... 998W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1029W Haiti: Earthquakes...... 999W Energy: National Policy Statements ...... 1029W International Red Cross ...... 999W Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued TREASURY ...... 1020W Internet ...... 999W Carbon Emissions: EU Action...... 1020W Snow and Ice: Leave...... 999W Corporation Tax ...... 1020W Debt Collection...... 1020W JUSTICE...... 1012W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 1021W Arrest Warrants: War Crimes...... 1012W Departmental Lost Property ...... 1021W Departmental Theft ...... 1013W Departmental Theft ...... 1022W Juries: Disabled People...... 1013W EU External Trade: Israel ...... 1022W Prison Service: Procurement ...... 1014W National Insurance Contributions ...... 1022W Prisoner Escapes ...... 1014W Places of Worship: Grants ...... 1024W Prisons: Mobile Phones...... 1014W Smuggling: Alcoholic Drinks ...... 1024W Royal Household ...... 1015W Taxation...... 1025W

NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1037W WALES...... 965W Children: Abuse ...... 1037W Departmental Buildings...... 965W Offences Against Children ...... 1037W Departmental Pay ...... 965W Departmental Theft ...... 966W

PRIME MINISTER...... 965W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 994W Creative Industries...... 965W Departmental Internet ...... 995W Reading Berkshire...... 965W Equality and Human Rights Commission...... 995W Equality and Human Rights Commission: SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 1016W Manpower ...... 995W BAE Systems ...... 1016W Greater Manchester ...... 995W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 1016W Lord Sugar of Clapton ...... 995W Departmental Theft ...... 1017W Politics: Females...... 996W Rape Cases Stern Review ...... 994W TRANSPORT ...... 988W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 989W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 973W Cycling: Helmets...... 989W Charities: Food ...... 973W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 990W Cold Weather Payments: Chelmsford...... 973W Departmental ICT ...... 990W Departmental Pay ...... 974W Departmental Information Officers ...... 990W Departmental Training ...... 974W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 991W Economic Activity ...... 974W Departmental Marketing ...... 991W Employment: Disabled...... 975W Departmental Pay ...... 992W Future Jobs Fund...... 976W Departmental Surveys...... 992W Future Jobs Fund: Tyne and Wear...... 977W High Speed Two: Freedom of Information ...... 993W Housing Benefit ...... 977W Kemble to Swindon Line ...... 988W Jobcentre Plus ...... 978W Northern Rail: Rolling Stock ...... 993W Jobcentre Plus: Racism...... 979W Parking ...... 993W National Employment Savings Trust...... 980W Public Transport: Rural Access ...... 988W New Deal for Young People...... 981W Public Transport Usage...... 988W Social Security Benefits: British Nationals Railways: Accidents ...... 993W Abroad ...... 981W Railways: Construction...... 994W Social Security Benefits: Disabled ...... 981W Railways: Todmorden ...... 994W Social Security Benefits: Mentally Ill ...... 982W Roadworks...... 988W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 983W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Thursday 18 March 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 951] [see index inside back page] Minister of State, Department for Transport Minister for Women and Equality

Business of the House [Col. 973] Statement—(Ms Harman)

Royal Assent [Col. 989]

Intelligence and Security Committee [Col. 990] Motion—(Mr. Watts)—agreed to

Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease [Col. 1075] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Patient Safety [Col. 323WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Petitions [Col. 15P] Observations

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 67WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 965W] [see index inside back page]