The Key Lessons Learnt from Producing the ABC Programme Talking

The key lessons learnt from producing the ABC programme Talkin g Heads a talk show/documentary

hybrid in a fast turnaround environment

Jack King

HND: Business Studies (Aston Birmingham)

This exegesis is submitted as the written component for the degree of

Master of Arts (Research)

Film and Television Production: Creative Industries

Queensland University of Technology

2009

Supervisors:

Associate Professor Geoff Portmann and Associate Professor Alan McKee

Abstract

The following exegesis will detail the key advantages and disadvantages of combining a traditional talk show genre with a linear documentary format using a small production team and a limited budget in a fast turnaround weekly environment.

It will deal with the Australian Broadcasting Corporation series Talking

Heads, broadcast weekly in the early evening schedule for the network at

18.30 with the presenter Peter Thompson.

As Executive Producer for the programme at its inception I was responsible for setting it up for the ABC in Brisbane, a role that included selecting most of the team to work on the series and commissioning the music, titles and all other aspects required to bring the show to the screen.

What emerged when producing this generic hybrid will be examined at length, including:

 The talk show/documentary hybrid format needs longer than 26’30”

to be entirely successful.

 The type of presenter ideally suited to the talk show/documentary

format requires someone who is genuinely interested in their guests

and flexible enough to maintain the format against tangential odds.

 The use of illustrative footage shot in a documentary style narrative

improves the talk show format.

iii  The fast turnaround of the talk show/documentary hybrid puts

tremendous pressure on the time frames for archive research and

 In a fast turnaround talk show/documentary format the field components

are advantageous but require very low shooting ratios to be sustainable.

 An intimate set works best for a talk show hybrid like this.

Also submitted are two DVDs of recordings of programmes I produced and directed from the first and third series. These are for consideration in the practical component of this project and reflect the changes that I made to the series.

Table of Contents

Abstract ...... iii Table of Contents ...... v Statement of Original Authorship ...... vii Acknowledgements ...... ix

Chapter 1: Introduction ...... 1

Chapter 2: The Literature Review ...... 5 2.1 Changes in documentary ...... 5 2.2 The emergence of the talk show ...... 7 2.3 Practice led research ...... 11

Chapter 3: Why attempt to hybridise two formats? ...... 15 3.1 The commissioning of the series ...... 15 3.2 The structure of the series ...... 16

Chapter 4: The key areas that emerged ...... 19 4.1 The talk show/documentary hybrid format needs longer than 26’30” to be entirely successful ...... 19 4.2 The type of presenter ideally suited to the talk show/documentary format needs to be someone who is genuinely interested in their guests and flexible enough to maintain the format against tangential odds ...... 21 4.3 The use of illustrative footage shot in a documentary style narrative improves talk show formats like this one ...... 24 4.4 The fast turnaround talk show/documentary hybrid puts tremendous pressure on the time frames for archive research and copyright clearance. The budget in this area therefore needs to be very well-resourced ...... 26 4.5 In a fast turnaround talk show/documentary format the field components are advantageous but require very low shooting ratios to be sustainable ...... 31 4.6 An intimate set works best for a talk show hybrid like this ...... 33

Chapter 5: Conclusion ...... 35

Bibliography ...... 39

Appendices ...... 43 Appendix 1: Talking Heads – Guest List and Audience Ratings 2007 ...... 43 Appendix 2: Producer’s Bible ...... 45 DVD Examples ...... Back Cover

Statement of Original Authorship

This exegesis contains no material which has been accepted for any other award for a degree or diploma in any other tertiary institution.

To the best of my knowledge and belief it contains no material previously published or written by another person, except where due reference is made in the text.

Name: Jack King

Signature:

Date:

vii

Acknowledgements

As a practising radio and television producer for the last thirty-nine years I have entered the world of academia as an almost complete novice. Like all professional environments the landscape was often difficult to understand but, with the patience and guidance of an incredibly supportive staff I have, I hope, learnt to adapt sufficiently to be worthy of an academic award. It has been a fascinating journey, rewarding and frustrating in equal parts but it has given me a much deeper understanding of the rigours of intellectual scholarship and, in doing so, a much greater respect for the discipline, learning and integrity of the university as an institution and a place of learning.

For the opportunity to have been allowed to be part of this experience I am profoundly grateful. I have been surprised at how hard the study has been for me at times but, ironically, I feel I now have a much deeper understanding of the media world that I have been committed to for most of my working life. I would like to specifically thank Associate Professor

Geoff Portmann for offering me the chance to become involved with the

Creative Industries Faculty and for his advice and guidance. Helen Yeates too has been a great support especially during my first year of lectures. I would also like to pay tribute to the QUT library staff for their unfailing helpfulness at all stages of my study. That also goes for Leanne Blazely, who has since left, and her replacement Kate Symonds. Their constant cheerfulness and understanding of the administrative system has been invaluable to me. Finally, I would like to thank Associate Professor Alan

ix McKee for his constant enthusiasm and belief in me even when my own insecurities and lack of academic understanding must have driven him mad.

I will miss our discussions and his unwavering confidence. For the time, guidance and invaluable advice he has given me throughout this project, I am incredibly grateful. To you all my heartfelt thanks.

Chapter 1: Introduction

This exegesis will explain the key lessons learnt when producing and directing a generic hybrid that took an early evening talk show format and combined it with field inserts shot in the traditional linear documentary style. It was used in the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s series Talking

Heads from its inception in 2005 until I left the show as Executive Producer at the end of the third series in 2007. The intention was to profile significant Australians from a variety of social and professional backgrounds through three distinct phases of their lives: Early Life, Career Highlights, and Current Situation. (See 2007 series guest list in Appendix 1.)

This study will examine in some detail this type of hybrid in the context of a fast weekly turnaround of forty-two programmes per year in an environment restricted by a limited budget and a very small production team. The research is designed to give guidance to future production teams that may be considering further experimentation in this programming area and will examine some of the successes and pitfalls discovered along the way.

In the modern television environment budgets are increasingly stretched and network schedulers seem ever more reliant on the fast turnaround talk and game show formats to provide weekly material over long runs at minimum cost (Schattuc 1997, 66). The proliferation of channels coupled with the worldwide economic downturn is likely to increase the pressure on many practitioners to supply more for less (Dovey 2000, 72). This was certainly the case in the scenario being examined with this project.

1 The intention here is to examine this alternative approach to the evening talk show formula. This should subsequently prove useful to those producers contemplating ways of developing interesting variations on this form. In particular this research examines the practicalities involved in producing a fast turnaround output with limited resources.

It should also help future productions to assess more accurately whether these forms of hybrid are worth pursuing at all. Such decisions are rarely easy. Many producers with a documentary background are unused to the pressures of weekly television, current affairs journalists are frequently unfamiliar with classical documentary approaches and fast turnaround specialists from traditional magazine backgrounds do not necessarily understand the style required for good concise documentary approaches.

This means that teams need to be put together with attention to the flexibility of their skills. They also have to be able to get along together effectively as weekly television has no space for prima donnas no matter how talented. The make up of the production team is important in creating a distinctive product in the ‘similar-yet–different’ landscape of broadcast television (Newcombe quoted in Timberg 2002, xiii) something supported by

Sonia Livingstone and Peter Lunt in their research (Livingstone and Lunt

1994, 79).

Ironically, although I had an extensive long-form documentary background with the ABC working as a writer/producer/director on episodes of A Big

Country, The Bush Tucker Man, The Flying Vet, Compass, Dynasties and numerous others, I had not worked on fast turnaround shows since my earlier career at the BBC. This was with their twice-weekly live magazine

programme Blue Peter in the early 1980's. However, I was surprised at how quickly the lessons I had learnt in this previous programming environment returned.

At the end of this exegesis are two episodes from the first and third series respectively; these programmes illustrate the changes that took place from the first to the third series as we honed the process along the way.

It should be pointed out that throughout the series I was the Executive

Producer; however, because of the pressure of the exercise, the small team and the limited resources I produced and directed an average of five to six episodes per year myself.

The submitted work featuring the broadcaster Clive Robertson and the singer and dancer Todd McKenney are therefore my own work as a producer and director. These are submitted as the 70% practical component required of this research project on the DVDs attached.

Although much has been written about both the documentary and the talk show as separate genres there appears to be no production material that specifically discusses the talk show being combined with other genres on a purely practical basis. The issues of fast turnaround series with limited production teams and resources are therefore areas that I will address in detail in the following pages.

Before exploring the programme practicalities, however, it is useful to examine the development of both the documentary and the talk show.

These forms help us place Talking Heads in context and understand how it relates to the respective genres being discussed (Mittell 2004, 96). In this

3 context a review of the academic literature reflecting the changes that have become apparent in the last 15 years, first in documentary and then in the talk show, will now be examined.

Chapter 2: The Literature Review

This literature review is primarily focused on an examination of material that has seemed particularly relevant to the first three Talking Heads television series for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

2.1 Changes in documentary

Bill Nichols is a documentary theorist whose name repeatedly recurs when examining the subject. In particular Nichols’ categorisations of various documentary modes: poetic, expository, observational, interactive, reflexive, and participatory seem to have been useful in helping to define the genre (Ellis and McLane 2007, 334). However his chronology of linear development has been disputed, most notably by Stella Bruzzi. She suggests that any sort of documentary genealogy is misplaced (Bruzzi 2000, 2, 3).

That said, it is interesting to note that, even whilst complaining of this sort of reductionism, she uses Nichols’ “observational mode” as her own reference (Hight 2001, 7). Unlike Bruzzi, many other scholars, like Hight, acknowledge the intrinsic usefulness of Nichols’ modes in defining much documentary output (Corner 2001, 358).

In the face of a rapidly changing television environment many academics are now reassessing the whole issue of genre in the face of the increased mixing and matching of so many formats (Edgerton and Rose 2005, 7).

Nichols too has since recognised that a “shift of epistemological proportions has occurred” causing him to revisit some of his earlier observations on modes of documentary production (Nichols 1994, 1, 93). This shift coincides

5 with the arrival in the late 1980s and early 1990s of what have subsequently been dubbed “reality television series” and “docu-soaps”

(Bruzzi 2000, 75-78; Dovey 2000, 133; Winston 1995, 54).

These changes were made possible by the widespread introduction of new breakthrough technologies, firstly the highly versatile DV cameras and then, a little later, fast non–linear editing suites introduced between 1995 and 1997.

Their increasing acceptance throughout the industry revolutionised the cost of collecting and editing material to an extent that had previously been unimaginable.

In particular the speed that material could now be viewed, edited and re- edited in the cutting room made it possible to incorporate more complex documentary styles. This economy and efficiency was breathtaking when compared to previous eras. The result was an explosion of creativity where the types of documentary modes outlined by Bill Nichols were integrated with other genres and styles. A typical example is the soap opera with its episodic structure; hence the widespread use of the phrase “docu-soap”.

In spite of the advantages of technology however, there are still significant limitations on what can be achieved in a fast turnaround environment as illustrated in section 4.4 of this exegesis.

Richard Kilborn raises the question of “what legitimacy the new hybrid forms of the factual (which clearly may have generic affinities with the talk-show and the game-show) can claim to be documentary?” He acknowledges that what is apparent is that traditional documentary styles

are being increasingly integrated into other generic forms. This view is supported by many of his academic colleagues (Kilborn 2003, 5-6, 61,194-

195; Scott 1998, 228-229; Dovey 2000, 2, 139). It can be argued that this burgeoning of different approaches to programming and blurring of formats can be misunderstood by the public, as anything too unusual runs the danger of becoming confusing (Berger 2002, 46; Kilborn and Izod 1997, 39).

However, given the very established position of television in our global culture it is reasonable to assume that audiences are now sophisticated enough to accept many changes to genre boundaries which is why television is continually looking for new styles of programming (Livingstone and Lunt

1994, 6 ,37).

There is an increasing view amongst postmodern theorists that because of the inter-textual knowledge audiences have of television genres, they now have “an understanding that transcends and cuts across genres” (Casey,

Casey, Calvert, French and Lewis 2002, 110; Fiske 1987, 37; Wilson 2004,

187; Ellis 2000, 25-38).

As the mixing of programme styles becomes increasingly popular it is evident that many more of these blurred genres will emerge, and if successful, will be here to stay (Berman 2000, 60-61).

2.2 The emergence of the talk show

What is clear is that three major genres of talk show have emerged: “The

Early Morning News Talk Magazine”; “The Daytime Audience-Participation

Show”; and “The Evening Talk Show” (Timberg 2002, 5-9). These American templates have now been replicated on networks worldwide and whilst Phil

7 Donahue is credited with moving the daytime audience format into a participatory mode in 1967, it is interesting to note that Steve Allen set a template much earlier. As far back as 1948, while he was at KNX Los

Angeles, he invited listeners to join him in the studio to participate in his radio show which transferred to television in 1954. It seems extraordinary that the basic set devised by his producer Sylvester ‘Pat’ Weaver for that evening chat show still largely prevails today, as does Allen’s style of impromptu comedy. Even the Tonight Show style desk has been around since then providing a boundary between the guest and host and establishing the “authority of the host over the guests” (Butler 2002, 101).

The impact of the set on final programme outcomes cannot be underestimated, as explained in section 4.6.

Given the consistency of look in most evening talk shows it is hard to agree with Jonathan Bignal that the genre of the television talk show has undergone “significant changes”. He provides little evidence to support this

(Bignal 2004, 123) although he quotes Graeme Turner’s assertion that “the cumulative effect of repeated tweaking of the content amounts to a change in the genre” (Neale and Turner 2001, 6). Such a claim seems hard to justify in the context of the way these programmes are scheduled and styled. Although morning, afternoon and evening talk shows are significantly different in style from each other they remain remarkably similar in generic content in their allocated time slots (Mittell 2004, 58).

A useful contribution to the debate on the talk show comes from Louann

Haarman who argues that these programmes really have three important

sub–genres: “the audience discussion”; “social issues put in a personal perspective”; and “personal and social issues as spectacle” (Haarman 2001,

31–65). This is not an unreasonable generalisation and would seem to refute the changed genre view asserted by Turner. For every Oprah and Donahue in

America there is also a Tricia or Kilroy in Britain and a Kerri-Anne in

Australia. Indeed similar shows to these are replicated in most countries of the world. The same can be said of the news talk shows. Indeed where difference once existed there now seems increasing homogeneity; witness the demise of most previously “serious” evening talk shows on British television. BBC programmes like Face to Face ran from 1959 until 1962 and featured many of the leading thinkers of the day. Shows such as this have now largely been replaced by clones of American models like David

Letterman and Jay Leno.

These evening shows keep the emphasis firmly focused on entertainment

(Tolson 1996, 146). In this context it is significant to note that Barbara

Gaines, the Executive Producer of The Late Show with David Letterman, refutes that it is a talk show at all, “I would most certainly call the show a variety show not a talk show” (Kellison 2006, 232). This is interesting given that the current trend for successful evening shows in Britain and Australia emulates the style of Letterman’s programme right down to the set. Rove

McManus currently does it in Australia and before him, Steve Vizard.

Similarly, the most popular show of this type in the UK is currently

Jonathan Ross, again clearly a copy. Although dubbed talk or chat shows they appear to reinforce Gaines’ opinion that they are really light entertainment vehicles based around the personality of the host. It is this

9 importance of the interviewer’s role that I will examine in detail in section 4.2.

It is hardly surprising that producing an obviously popular series for a network brings with it its own rewards. Jeremy Tunstall discovered this when he synthesised interviews with numerous working television producers. It revealed their universal recognition that the better resources and time slots inevitably went to the higher rating shows. The success of

Andrew Denton’s Enough Rope and Australian Story are cases in point at the ABC. The importance of these programme resources and transmission times will be discussed in further detail in section 4.1.

Tunstall also discovered that whilst the producers and hosts of these types of show enjoyed a huge degree of autonomy in their choice of guests, ultimately “they must live by the ratings” (Tunstall 1993, 151).

With the advent of “reality television” people from all walks of life are now being given an increasing voice. This is something that has often been denied them by the more traditional art forms (Corner 1995, 31; Scannell

1996; 141-152). Given this position John Hartley argues that the TV genres including the chat show have increased the better qualities of our society with “cultural citizenship on show”; he maintains these displays give us the distinctions between what is, and what is not, culturally acceptable. These are often colloquially referred to as “water cooler moments”. Even deliberately extreme and provocative shows like Jerry Springer’s would appear to serve only to expose behaviour that is patently not working for its protagonists.

As Paddy Scannell points out, talk shows often offer society “a deepening sense of its biography” (Hartley 1999,160; Scannell 1996,16; Scott 1996, 8).

We found this to be particularly true from the feed back we received from many viewers and guests when we integrated historical footage into the narrative as discussed in section 4.3.

2.3 Practice led research

The theoretical paradigm for this thesis is practice led research. This methodology involves a practitioner working on creative practice and in the course of doing so “returning to experience, attending to feelings, and evaluating experience” (Boud et al. cited in Zwozdiak–Myers 2006, 18). This allows the practice of creative work to become part of the data gathering process. To achieve this end the data for analysis in this project was triangulated from a number of different sources as a researcher- practitioner. This approach allowed the project to be seen from a number of different angles to form a “better picture” of the whole. (Gray and

Malins 2004, 121).

This was necessary to provide different perspectives in a situation where personal involvement made absolute emotional and mental disengagement impossible to achieve (White 2001, 1-14).

1. Reflection on experience.

In many careers the foundational skills are learnt almost by osmosis, by actually doing the job involved on a day to day basis. This knowledge is frequently taken for granted as it is often applied without having to consciously reflect on the processes involved, something that can be

11 described as a “spontaneous knowing-in-action” (Schon 1987, 26). This exegesis will follow the development of the programme Talki ng Heads, and will analyse the gestation and development of the series in some detail. To do this the adoption of practice led research methods offered the opportunity to focus on the creative process itself, whilst being aware that the “researcher-practitioner” must learn to become a “reflexive– practitioner” (Johns 2000, 37). Self reflection was required to examine practices built up over many years of application in both radio and television environments. This knowledge rarely had any formal basis but instead was often arrived at either through trial and error or the compounded skills exchanged with other colleagues in the industry

(Cheetham and Chivers 2001, 270-292). In choosing the two programmes submitted as practice led examples it was therefore necessary to examine in detail the thinking behind them and the series as a whole. This is explained in detail in Chapters three and four after reviewing the genres involved and their place in the television industry. The limitations of self- reflective research are the difficulties of bringing enough detachment to the project being examined. Inevitably this is something that can never be fully achieved (Schon 1983, 276–277). As a result it was also necessary to adopt additional approaches to support this exegesis.

2. Programme requirements.

When a brand new series is mooted the expectations of the network executives such as the Head of Television, the Chief Programmer and the managerial accountants invariably set specific parameters for the requirements of the output. Such demands influence structure and style

(Dillard and Solomon 2000, 167-175). Reflecting on these issues as part of the research meant re-visiting notebooks and emails used to record meetings before the transmission of Talking Heads began. There was also subsequent material as the series progressed. The frequently didactic nature of the discourse, both written and verbal, also provided useful material when re-examined as part of this work. As executive producer for the series my own dictates to the production team also bore examination.

This is why the “Producer’s Bible” I wrote for new field directors on the series is included in Appendix 2. Similarly the guest list and comparative viewing figures for the 2006–2007 series are included to illustrate the intense scrutiny and monitoring that goes on. Even in the public sector ratings, like budgets, have an enormous impact on the success or otherwise of a television series. Again these areas are addressed in detail in the subsequent chapters of this work.

3. Production paperwork.

The amount of paperwork generated by a weekly television programme is enormous. Research notes, scripts, contracts, budget, transcripts, copyright clearances and editing notes all proved to be useful sources of reflection when re-examining the series and choosing the two programmes to illustrate the practice being examined.

4. Emails and production meeting notebooks.

Looking back at various emails sent and received at different stages of the series helped clarify the ongoing development of the show, as did the weekly production meeting and post-mortem note books.

13 5. Viewers and critic’s responses.

Two useful sources for judging whether particular aspects of the programme had worked were the feedback received from the viewers and the comments of critics of the shows. Viewer reactions to broadcast episodes of the programme on the website were immediate and often insightful. These comments, coupled with the television critics’ more analytical approach in the national press, allowed for a number of viewpoints to be taken into account when working on the written component of the practice. To this end both positive and negative comments from some of their observations are included in later chapters.

6. Discussions with colleagues.

Like all professional organisations there is inevitably a hierarchical structure. However, for television to really work successfully there has to be a good team involved (Haseman 2005, 159) These team members need to be prepared to work hard in their various roles for the overall good of the programme and they need to be proud of it (Turnbull 2008, xi). As a result, frequent conversations with my Series Producer, Presenter,

Researcher, Directors, Editors, Guests and Publicist all contributed to the process with invaluable insights into the working practice.

Revisiting my own experiences, and the paperwork associated with the project, allowed me to develop a number of insights into the creative practice of producing a talk show/documentary hybrid in a fast turnaround environment. These insights are presented in this thesis.

Chapter 3: Why attempt to hybridise two formats?

3.1 The commissioning of the series

Denise Erikson, then Head of Factual Television at the ABC, approached the

State Division in Queensland to tackle one of the ABC’s notoriously difficult evening time slots at 18.30. However, the minimal budget she proposed for the weekly thirty-minute show was considerably less than that of

Australian Story also based in Brisbane. The dilemma was how to deliver a successful series outcome with the minimal resources on offer.

It was against this background that we addressed the setting up and consequent delivery of the ABC series Talking Heads featuring profiles that mixed the documentary form with the talk show environment.

As we have seen, the revolution in technology with the introduction of extremely small, cheap digital cameras and editing suites has led to the ability to shoot and recut material collected in the field at a pace unimaginable two decades ago. Consequently Talking Heads was conceived as an alternative way to profile interesting Australians. Profiles are not new of course, but these styles of programme were usually either shot on location or in the studio using a studio audience as a backdrop; the most famous and ongoing example of this being This Is Your Life. The success of

Andrew Denton with Enough Rope led us to analyse his show’s popularity and regular viewing confirmed our opinion that there were many instances throughout his programme where visual illustrations, shot on location, would have enhanced his interviews. Similarly George Negus Tonight had

15 previously had some success with a mixture of studio and location material, leading us to commit to the subsequent Talking Heads format.

3.2 The structure of the series

The structure consisted of three 3-4 minute linear documentary-style location sequences coupled with studio linking and traditional talk show interviewing from the presenter Peter Thompson. As outlined, the programme was split between three field sequences and the studio component. The mini-documentaries always followed the same pattern:

Early Childhood, Career Highlights, and Current Situation. This format proved invaluable for maintaining the linear progress of the narrative and provided a simple but effective structure to cover background information quickly. “This is a great device because it saves Thompson having to run through routine questions” (Cuthbertson 2007, 30). “So much information is packed in to the programme that it becomes not only biography but

Australian social history” (Hook 2007, 17).

However, not all critics found it to their liking. Matthew Condon claimed it was confusing “like a televisual minotaur – half-documentary, half- interview programme” (Condon 2006, 36). That said, we established an average viewing figure of 350,000 to 450,000 and sometimes, depending on the popularity of the guest, 500,000 plus. This translated into an average of between nine to eleven percent of the viewing audience in its time slot.

This was a reasonably healthy figure for the ABC in the very competitive early evening period traditionally dominated by commercial current affairs and news shows. It quickly became apparent that the more familiar the

‘name’ of the guest the more likely the viewing figures were to go up but, although the programme was attracting critical acclaim in many quarters, it remained “something of a buried treasure in this timeslot” (Brown 2006,

15). These figures stood up well against Australian Story which had an average of 800,000 to 900,000 at the prime time of 20.00 after heavy network promotion.

I will now focus on the key lessons learnt when producing Talking Heads.

Chapter 4: The key areas that emerged

4.1 The talk show/documentary hybrid format needs longer than 26’30” to be entirely successful

Television is one of the most inflexible mediums to work in and programmers are almost completely unforgiving if the allotted scheduled time is exceeded by more than a few seconds. In most cases this can be considered a good thing; it means that the final programme that ends up on the screen has been honed and edited to the very best that it can be.

However, this is not always the case as episodes of Talking Heads revealed.

The programme length was a maximum of 26’30” and it rapidly became apparent that this was not long enough to develop this format to its best advantage. To elaborate, allowing for two thirty-second spots to top and tail the programme, the body of the content was immediately reduced to

25'30. The three inserts based on Early Life, Career Highlights and Current

Situation ran, in total, for an average of 12'00” leaving the host, Peter

Thompson, a mere 13'30” to establish an on-screen empathy with the guest. This led some critics, like Emma Sutherland, to complain that he covered too much too quickly. Although she did acknowledge that, “given the half hour time restraint, quite a lot of ground is covered” (Sutherland

2006, 17). Inevitably most guests had entertaining anecdotes that frequently took several minutes to relate creating headaches in the cutting room. We had to struggle to abbreviate the longer stories whilst maintaining the integrity of their meaning. This became even more frustrating when skilled raconteurs often revealed fascinating and very

19 amusing insights about themselves. This was excellent entertainment, however, because of the limited length of the programme these reminiscences often had to be either cut out altogether or severely truncated.

In addition all good interviewers can identify insightful revelations when they occur in a discourse and, quite correctly, use their instincts to follow them. This we almost always allowed Peter to do during the recording but frequently had to cut the material short for the broadcast. Naturally this frustrated all of us, but in particular Peter as it often made him appear less capable than he actually was. As reviewer Ann Maree Bellman observed

‘‘unpursued lines of inquiry can leave you feeling unsatisfied’’ (Bellman

2007, 24). Consequently many of the public and even the odd professional critic, such as Scott Jenkins, lobbied for a new and longer time slot as a

“half an hour just isn't enough” (Jenkins 2007, 17; Butler 2009, 14). I would advise any producers planning on developing this format to decline it unless offered 45 – 55 minutes. It is my experience that once schedulers are satisfied with the viewing figures they are less concerned with the production team’s practical and aesthetic problems. This is particularly true if these problems are primarily caused by limitations on budget, allocated time and slot. Needless to say over three series there was repeated lobbying for increased budget, length and scheduling changes but they were never forthcoming. Interestingly, as the number of viewing sources proliferate, scheduling is likely to become increasingly less important, whilst the rigidity of the half hour and hour time formats appears to be increasingly the norm. This is to allow the viewer an easier

selection method when viewing programming menus that now often run into hundreds of choices. Most channels now start their programming on the hour and half hour to allow for this (Lury 2005, 105). Whether the increasing popularity of the web and YouTube in particular, will result in a generational shift that will change this paradigm, remains to be seen.

4.2 The type of presenter ideally suited to the talk show/documentary format needs to be someone who is genuinely interested in their guests and flexible enough to maintain the format against tangential odds

In a talk show environment the role of the presenter is crucial to the success of the project. If the public decide that the on-screen representative is not to their liking the show will fail no matter how strong the content. The challenge with this format is to find a television personality who has a big enough on-screen presence to make an impact whilst, at the same time, being empathetic enough to let the guest and the documentary material breathe. This was particularly the case when the studio components of the interview got split by the Early Life, Career

Highlights and Current Situation segments thus taking up nearly 50% of the show.

The biggest problem in combining the two formats for the presenter emerged very rapidly and in retrospect should have been obvious. It was this – the viewer, looking at linear illustrations shot in the field, naturally expected the interviewer to pick up on the last visual signpost they had seen. That is inevitably what happened, but it then became necessary to return the audience to earlier material in the “documentary” sequence to develop the narrative properly. Introducing the sequences was easy enough

21 with variants on the traditional “well let’s see what happened to you next” approach, but coming out of these sequences proved much trickier for

Peter from a continuity point of view.

Producers preparing to develop this format are advised to pilot several presenters without auto cue, using pre-recorded inserts and enthusiastic guests. This will rapidly reveal the hosts who can maintain the sense of linear history even when distracted by guests who may be determined to discuss a future segment before the previous one has been properly explored.

In the absence of any credible analysis of what makes a good presenter I offer these purely personal observations after 39 years of working closely with them in both radio and television. In my experience almost all presenters are a strange mixture of ego and insecurity. Observations lead me to believe that, in the main, the most egocentric are those working in the entertainment area of television. This can, of course, be a major advantage in certain styles of show but for the purposes of a hybrid like this they are far from ideal. This is because an ego driven host will resent the intrusion of the field sequences and will not be genuinely interested in the guests who they will see primarily as mere adjuncts to their own personality.

As a case in point it has been noticed that David Letterman often shows a

“visible lack of interest in many guests” (Weinmans, 2008, 57). Presenters who have come out of a serious radio environment, as opposed to disc jockeys, are usually genuinely interested in people, living as they do in the

much less rarefied atmosphere of a radio studio. Also, because of their length of time on air everyday, they are usually much better at “thinking on their feet” without the crutch of a script on autocue. The range and variety of material they have to handle on most shifts, especially “drive”, usually means that they are also used to making very rapid “gear changes” look natural. In addition, the best of them can interview extremely effectively.

The problem is that few make a successful transition to television, unused as they are to all its restrictions and the technical demands put on them by the new medium. Many dislike this environment after the more casual and flexible atmosphere of radio.

In the case of Talking Heads the appointment of Peter Thompson, a former current affairs radio anchor with some television experience, was fortunate.

He was used to a wide range of interviewing, could take frequent earpiece direction and was genuinely interested in the guests’ wellbeing over his own: “though he may lack Denton’s wit and Parkinson’s warmth, Thompson is among the very few interviewers who keep the focus on the subject”

(Cuthbertson, 2007, 30). Therefore, to try and maximise smooth transitions back and forth between the location items and studio sequences we worked with Peter before every show. We anticipated likely responses from the guest to the specific questions coming out of each insert sequence. We then fashioned some potential ways to return to the start of the field material. This was not always necessary but it was a concern that we were always aware of and something Peter was always prepared for. The mini- documentary elements also provided unexpected bonuses for the presenter.

23 As the inserts were never shown to the participants before the recorded interview, their impact, when seen for the first time, was consequently, often mesmerising for the guest. Our research often unearthed material from their past that many had forgotten about or not seen before. This meant that there was often a surprised response from the subject in much the same way that many of us react when discovering old family photographs or artefacts. As Peter Thompson observed, “I believe you don't really understand someone until you come to grips with where they come from and what happened in their childhood” (Phillips 2005, 5). This had the unexpected advantage of immediately opening them up emotionally to

Peter’s questioning and was, I believe, one of the major strengths of this format. In addition, because Peter had already seen the inserts, we were able to more closely fashion his questioning to suit the likely responses of the guests.

4.3 The use of illustrative footage shot in a documentary style narrative improves talk show formats like this one

The biggest problem with the opening field sequence was accessing relevant illustrative film of events and situations when guests spoke passionately about school, landscapes, jobs or events from childhood.

Getting relevant archival material to match their anecdotes in a quick turnaround environment put enormous pressure on our producers and archivists. In traditional long-form documentary this is less of a problem because the production time frames are far more generous. In spite of our archivists best efforts we often had to rely on sequences of film that, although historically accurate, did not directly depict the guest in every

situation. Thus Normie Rowe, Clive Robertson and Max Walker all shared the same junior school footage. Major Les Hiddins and General Peter

Cosgrove were present at some of the same Vietnamese action sites and several guests migrated to Australia on the same ship. At first we expected vociferous protests from our interviewees but we were astonished to learn that, providing the footage we had acquired had the right historical context, they did not mind at all. In fact their usual reaction was that of being transported back to a time that they had forgotten and now believed to be almost part of their real experience. In other words, they became almost as convinced as the unaware viewer that our stock footage was part of their real history. This, in turn, quite frequently seemed to lead many of the interviewees into their own memory banks in a much more effective way than mere face-to-face questioning was able to achieve, another unexpected benefit of this format. We also found it useful for the guests to see their edited inserts for the first time at the recorded interview with

Peter. Their obvious delight and surprise at what they saw paid real dividends in the subsequent interview sequences.

In some of the early programmes we trained a camera on their faces and inserted their expressions in a small window over a corner of the field material but soon dropped it as an unnecessary distraction.

There are ethical issues that this raises of course; how much should programme makers lead the viewer to believe that the archival footage they are seeing is the actual footage of the guest’s life? After all, documentarists are often manipulative “in their attempts to represent the real” (Kilborn 2003, 129). Interestingly in over 120 programmes it was

25 never raised as an issue by either the interviewee or the public. We therefore concluded that, providing every effort is made to establish the historical authenticity of the footage, the specific detail was less important than the illusion of specificity. These were the major points that arose in the first segments of the profile.

4.4 The fast turnaround talk show/documentary hybrid puts tremendous pressure on the time frames for archive research and copyright clearance. The budget in this area therefore needs to be very well- resourced

The “career highlights” sequences caused a completely different set of problems invariably revolving around copyright. The most frequent request from the public during the run of each series was for profiles of famous

Olympians and, quite specifically, Cathy Freeman. Although we tried on more than one occasion to broker a “special” rate for Olympic footage the fees asked for were always so high that our budget could not afford them.

To profile a world class sports person without being able to show the apex of their sporting achievement is obviously something the public would have found untenable. Consequently our most recent Olympians remained the one group never profiled.

Indeed, copyright continues to become an increasingly complex issue as the

Internet, DVD, mobile telephone and digital outlets as well as the more traditional publishing routes proliferate. Negotiating copyright clearances therefore becomes ever more complicated.

Our attempt to combine the two genres of linear documentary and talk show into one for Talking Heads presented its own quite specific copyright

problems. Traditional documentary practice on a fairly straightforward series in a similar vein to the ABC’s Dynasties, which I also worked on, would allow at least six weeks for the production of each episode. In comparison, a network would reasonably expect a maximum of two to three weeks to assemble an episode of a successful talk show. Talk-show production, although complex in its own way, is a far more straightforward process.

The basic requirements are to research and book the guests, look after an audience when required and record and edit the event. If a documentary component is added all sorts of other considerations immediately come into play. Time must be added for field recording and editing including the typing of transcripts if the dialogue or location interviews are to be used for voice over. Archive footage to illustrate the narrative has to be located, negotiated and cleared for use before serious editing can begin. This is, of course, all achievable. However, in the context of a forty-two week series with an eleven-day turnaround and a small budget, even by traditional chat show standards what we were attempting was ambitious. Not surprisingly, it transpired that the complexity of copyright locations, ownership and clearances took up much of our time. To try and alleviate the problem we dropped one of our two researcher positions from the budget and instead used the saving to employ a full time copyright clearance specialist.

With an approximate budget of A$1,000 per episode and commercial copyright purchases from other networks running at an average of A$1,000 for thirty seconds for four runs over two years, it was crucial to make sure the material we were purchasing was the best available. Extra material

27 could be used under the rules of “Review and Criticism” and “Illustrative” if we made sure Peter phrased his questions carefully during the studio interview. These are notoriously vague definitions and although this is potentially cost free it can be extremely restrictive, risky and sometimes time consuming using footage in this way. As an example, in the Todd

McKenney programme submitted, we could not afford to buy his dance sequence from Singing in the Rain. Fortunately, by judicious editing we were able to build most of the sequence by collecting legitimately shot rehearsal material that had been taken by ABC news crews from around the country. Careful observers will note that the shots of the conductor in yellow oil skins have no audience as a result.

Although techniques such as these enabled us to stretch our budget it was also a difficult and lengthy exercise given the constant demands of the weekly format. The copyright clearance assistant therefore needed to work closely alongside the programme researcher to prevent the emergence of shooting suggestions that were unlikely to be viable from a copyright perspective. Typical examples that arose from the outset were extracts of footage supplied by the guests on old VHS tapes recorded off air. These tapes would often contain extremely useful material but the guests frequently had little or no idea where the original material had come from and tracking down sources and establishing correct ownership often resulted in editorial brinkmanship. Ironically, individual photographs often proved an even bigger problem as establishing the works of professional, as opposed to amateur photographers, was often more difficult than we anticipated.

As some of the costs had the potential to be as high as A$250 per picture this meant that their use often had to be limited to say the least.

There is also a public expectation that virtually every programme made by the ABC will now be downloadable. Each programme is accompanied by its own website complete with guest book. The time when the production team waited for audience reaction is long gone. Now viewer response is not just by letter or telephone but by guest book entry, often immediately after the show. Whilst being a marvellous tool for gauging the success of a programme it also adds considerably to the work load if the production team is as small as ours was. It also stretches audience goodwill when repeated requests for downloads of favourite episodes are refused on the basis of copyright restrictions.

Many people obviously saw this as an excuse and an example of bloody- mindedness on the part of the Talki ng Heads’ team. They often could not understand why they could download other ABC-made programmes but not this one.

There are also sound economic reasons why a realistic copyright budget should be far higher on the agenda at the planning stage of a series like this and that is the spin off marketing afforded through the repackaging of the material for books (two from Talking Heads have subsequently been released) and DVD retail sales. In addition, given the voracious appetite for repeats on digital and cable channels now and in the long-term future it is, in my view, short sighted to restrict the exposure of many episodes to a mere four runs over two years. This is particularly true of a series of this

29 type designed, as it is, to profile a who’s who of iconic Australians. For the sake of thirty seconds of restrictive copyright most of the programmes will be unable to be seen in the future without either considerable re-editing or renegotiation.

A typical example of the importance of this came after the tragic death of the rally driver, Peter Brock. He had been the featured guest on the show just a few weeks before he was killed in a serious car accident.

Consequently, every network in the country was desperate for copies of the episode as word spread about the comprehensive nature of our profile on him. We were also inundated with requests from fans to release the programme as a DVD. Needless to say copyright restrictions prevailed.

The expansion of ABC2 also meant that of the four runs over two years negotiated, two were immediately accounted for within the first 24 hours of the programme’s broadcast. This was because it was repeated the following day as part of the ABC’s digital network.

As the series progressed I became increasingly convinced that, for a hybrid like this to succeed, a realistic copyright budget is an essential.

My advice to any production team contemplating following our route is to ensure at the outset that the series is properly resourced. This is easier said than done in an increasingly tough economic climate but on reflection I would not now attempt to accept the challenge of making this style of programme on the resources we were given. To put this in context we operated on a fraction of the Australian Story budget. They also worked on a 6-8 week turnaround per episode compared to our 11 days.

4.5 In a fast turnaround talk show/documentary format the field components are advantageous but require very low shooting ratios to be sustainable

The final sequence of each programme featuring the guest’s current situation was invariably where the format paid repeated dividends and was, arguably, the most revelatory part of the show as a whole. There are several reasons for this: shoots usually included a sequence inside the guest’s house allowing an astute producer to pick up on the visual clues around the place. They were then able to tip off Peter Thompson about potential lines of questioning before the studio interview.

The film director Bruce Beresford’s study comes to mind where signed photographs of country music stars lining his walls revealed his passion for the music of Willie Nelson. Similarly, Diane Cilento’s meditation room prompted questions on her Sufi beliefs and businessman Dick Smith’s detestation of computers was revealed when he showed the crew around his office. These and many other examples are illustrations of the success of the combined format’s ability to reveal deeper insights than would normally be uncovered in a straight talk show environment. Field recordings also gave opportunities to friends, family and acquaintances to give their insights into the guest’s life.

As with all good documentary filmmakers, our field producers were deliberately chosen for their ability to reflect the guest’s personality through the location recordings.

By way of illustration, in the two episodes submitted that I shot with Clive

Robertson and Todd McKenney I tried to reveal facets of their personalities that would, hopefully, be surprising to many viewers. However, we had

31 little time to do this and therefore frequently had to short-hand the visual language. Thus, Clive’s lost dreams of railways are reflected in the broken carriages and Todd’s commitment to sign language and the deaf is shown at a brief rehearsal.

This is no easy feat with a maximum of three days allocated for shooting on location. Although the producers all had a history of long-form documentary the general consensus was that the shortness of the sequences and the limitations on time and travel made these some of the most challenging programmes they had ever worked on.

The producers had to be extremely focused on their content, directing efficiently with very tight shooting ratios rather than following an increasingly common trend of “wallpapering” everything and then letting the editor sort it out in the cutting room. Shooting ratios were expected to be between 7:1 and 10:1. As my BBC training led me to believe when shooting on film “it is dangerous to specify maximum shooting ratios, but for the average documentary 8:1 ought to be a generous figure” (Croton

1986, 27). This may have been true in an era where film stock was expensive but with the advent of tape and now hard drives things have changed substantially. In my experience most documentary makers are now coming in with shooting ratios considerably in excess of 15:1. This was confirmed by conversations with editors working with our colleagues on other projects in the adjoining editing suites. Our team was expected to return to the efficiencies of film ratios and some, at first, found this difficult. Transfer, shot listing, transcripts and viewing time all eat into a programme budget very rapidly. There is also a considerable fatigue factor

placed on editors who have to work through large quantities of unnecessary material, so the shoots were heavily planned.

Given the time limitations, locations also had to be within practical travelling distances. Producers had to quickly form empathetic relationships with both crews and guests and have a generosity of purpose that allowed them to hand over revelations to the host, Peter Thompson, that ordinarily their instincts as experienced documentary makers would have inclined them towards shooting on location (see the “Producer’s

Bible” notes in Appendix 2). What is clear from this is that the documentary component will be much more pressurised on a high turnaround series like this and many long-form documentary makers will find it very difficult to adapt, used as they are, to time frames of weeks rather than days.

4.6 An intimate set works best for a talk show hybrid like this

Anyone familiar with Brisbane will be well aware that the renovated

Powerhouse Arts Centre overlooking the river is a spectacular venue. In particular, the former turbine hall now forms a three-storey high atrium of enormous proportions. Ever since its opening I had wanted to use it as a television location and in keeping with my desire to test the boundaries of the standard talk show set, I now saw my opportunity through this new series. In addition, the branch had an under-utilised outside broadcast van and local crew, so the combination of the two seemed ideal. Thus negotiated we started recording the first series using the massive open space as a backdrop for the programme.

33 Although this multi-camera outside broadcast set up was useful in allowing us to do most of the interview assembly in the van, the sheer size of the venue tended to detract from the intimacy between Peter and his guests

(see the Clive Robertson interview). In addition we used separate single chairs rather than a couch to start with, further emphasising the distance between interviewer and interviewee. It was only when renovations forced us to move to the much smaller space at the Judith Wright Arts Centre in

Brisbane that we realised how much better the more intimate surroundings were in helping Peter and his guests to relate to each other. As Peter pointed out in a newspaper interview, “the new location has changed the nature of the show” (Nicholson 2007, 3). At this location we used two cameras in the traditional cross shooting set up and post produced from the camera tapes back in the edit suite. By now a couch had also been adopted which paid further dividends. Not only did it look better on set, but it also allowed the guests more space to relax. These things are, of course important, and I should have given them considerably more thought beyond the desire to use an impressive televisual space.

Chapter 5: Conclusion

There are innumerable books and papers from both academics and practitioners on the documentary and talk show formats as separate entities and although many of them are good, useful contributions to the canon on their respective genres, none deal with the specific practicalities of mixing these two formats. What I have tried to achieve here is a realistic assessment of the potential advantages and disadvantages of trying to combine the two in an entertaining way for a mainstream audience. What I find surprising is that it has not already occurred more often as the two styles seem, in many ways, to be complementary bedfellows. It is a hybrid format that I believe lends itself superbly to the personality profile in particular. The ongoing longevity of This Is Your Life is a testament to the public’s continuing obsession with people in the public eye which; rather than abating, seems to be gathering momentum. Instead of dwelling on interminable practised anecdotes, tired jokes and plugs for current projects this format allows for a very real look at a guest’s life and offers the opportunity to discuss a whole range of topics raised by the documentary component.

In addition, it allows the programme team to better analyse the direction studio questioning should take. As an example family photographs, favourite objects, hobbies, and surrounding environments shot in the field can often bring real insights or raise questions that a straightforward studio interview would not immediately discover.

35 An obvious disadvantage is the fact that to shoot with a field crew is a more expensive enterprise than a straightforward studio discussion, but given the likely benefits of increased audiences and a better quality of discourse it is my view that these extra costs would be worth it.

If I had the opportunity to start such a series again I would insist on minimum programme duration of forty-five minutes but would suggest that the ideal time would be one hour. Most programmes benefit from rigorous editing, however, in the case of this series I remain convinced that the time restraints of the half hour on the format had a deleterious effect on the quality of the finished programmes. Themes and revealing anecdotes continually had to be cut to fit into the limited programme length.

The personality of the presenter needs to be carefully considered. Many television presenters are used to working almost exclusively from scripts and autocue and this does not make them good interviewers. Also many have such narcissistic tendencies that they are only superficially interested in the guest whom they can regard as merely a cipher for their own self aggrandisement.

In my experience presenters with a solid grounding in radio broadcasting early in their careers are more likely to be better at this format. Most radio work requires the anchor to have to continually think on their feet. It is also essential that the host of a programme like this has a good retentive memory and can make time-shifting around material seem natural and sequential.

The guest list needs to feature personalities with enough history and interest to sustain the three segments of Early Life, Career Highlights and

Current Situation. The one-hit wonder, flavour-of–the-month icon is unlikely to be able to hold an audience in this type of format for too long, lacking as they do any longevity.

The programme budget needs to reflect the extra effort required to maintain sufficient time for adequate research, proper field recordings, archive assistance, copyright clearances and extra editing. In my view, although we managed to make the format succeed the strain on staff and resources was considerable and far too testing for comfort.

The use of a smaller, more intimate venue yielded far better results from an interviewing perspective than a larger multi-camera set up in a bigger environment. The traditional two-camera shoot with reframed introductions and links worked well, was liked by the guests and took less time to set up.

I am also convinced that the introduction of the couch, as opposed to separate chairs achieved the beneficial effect of reinforcing the connection between the guest and Peter, although I have no concrete evidence to support this.

Subsequent series, after I left, featured recordings on location in various people’s houses. We did this occasionally when necessity demanded it but I took the view, which I still maintain, that the viewer should be given a consistent look during the interview segments of the programme to firmly anchor the style. Similarly, the latest series, now made in Adelaide, has dispensed with the linear documentary style using a more random approach

37 instead. Some viewers do not seem to like this style as this typical comment on the Talking Heads website reflects, “The production quality has been compromised this year...intrusive transitions and more shot styles than the Iraqi conflict” (Atkins 2008). Again, I believe this to be a step backwards but suspect that it reflects the extraordinary pressure that this format puts on limited resources and time frames.

To sum up I find it surprising that there have not been more attempts to mix the two genres of documentary and talk show. The advice offered here along with the programme examples attached will, I hope, help future productions clarify the style and move this type of integration further along.

I leave the last comment to television critic, Karen Bishop, writing in the

Sydney Morning Herald when reviewing the second series end-of-year compilation. She wrote, “This show has quietly gone from strength to strength over the past year...the list is starting to read like a top notch who’s who in Australian entertainment, medicine, culture and inevitably, society...I look forward to its return next year” (Bishop 2006, 10).

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Appendices

Appendix 1: Tal kin g Heads – Guest List and Audience Ratings 2007

Appendix 2: Producer’s Bible

Producer's Bible.

We thought this programme on Stuart Wagstaff in the new series might

be a useful template to see what our essential "Talking Heads" style is.

It is not our best programme but it is a very good example of efficient

use of limited time and resources in the field and how to get the best out

of what you've got. With the exception of our production support team

every one of us has a shot a story we all know it's not easy in the time

frame and we really do understand the problems.

The first thing to note is that the guest was able to supply very few fam·

ily photo's and yet I suspect you hardly notice this given the way it's

edited. Similarly with a guest who was 80 and with our tight schedule (it

was shot in two days) the Producer had very limited locations to hand

but has used what she did have wisely.

The interview is slightly off camera as if Stuart was talking to Peter on

location, terrific. Please do the main Interview on location this way.

Secondly because the guest is used to TV there are plenty of good pieces

to camera. If your talent can handle it that's exactly what we want in

the other segments when they're doing things on location.

Thirdly if you look carefully there are hardly any locations, his house,

garden, theatre and the variety club office and yet it doesn't feeL that

way.

SimilarLy we could only afford one insert, the "BLankety Blank", however

it shows Stuart to his best advantage and its cut in such a way as to get

45 us back to the OB with Peter in a natural and strong way Le. the Giraffe

story. From an archive point of view the rest discusses his long career

using stock shots and some free "pilot" and award ceremony footage but

it looks very comprehensive.

We believe the "Talking Heads" insets are of an amazingly high standard

given the very tight time frames our budget allows. Thank you all for

your work so far. Try and give yourselves a break by not shooting too

much . Ratios are expected to be within 15:1 at the most. Remember if

your stories go over 3'30" 14'400" max we'll butcher them anyway!

Don't forget there are three distinct sections to be covered:

1. Early life, parents, influences, etc.

2. The glory years, impact of career, highs and lows, cross roads etc.

3. Where they are now, lessons learnt, the future, aspirations, & dreams.

Every good Producers instinct is to ten the fully story, however, in the

case of this show, the trick is knOwing when to stop to allow the narra

tive to be picked up by Peter in the studio interview.

Your stories are the springboard; Peter's interview is the pool.

We hope this helps and once again thank you all for your efforts.