LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1031

OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 6 November 2019

The Council met at Eleven o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, G.B.S., J.P.

PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, G.B.S., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.

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THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO

THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN, B.B.S.

THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H.

THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING, B.B.S.

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, S.B.S., M.H., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG

THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, B.B.S., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI

THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK WING-HANG

THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG

DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1033

THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN

THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, G.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, S.B.S., J.P.

IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, S.B.S., M.H., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN

THE HONOURABLE ALVIN YEUNG

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WAN SIU-KIN

THE HONOURABLE CHU HOI-DICK

THE HONOURABLE JIMMY NG WING-KA, B.B.S., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HO KAI-MING

THE HONOURABLE LAM CHEUK-TING

THE HONOURABLE HOLDEN CHOW HO-DING

THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-FAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-CHUN

THE HONOURABLE WILSON OR CHONG-SHING, M.H.

THE HONOURABLE YUNG HOI-YAN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PIERRE CHAN

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THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHUN-YING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TANYA CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HUI CHI-FUNG

THE HONOURABLE LUK CHUNG-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LAU KWOK-FAN, M.H.

THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LAU IP-KEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHENG CHUNG-TAI

THE HONOURABLE KWONG CHUN-YU

THE HONOURABLE JEREMY TAM MAN-HO

THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI

THE HONOURABLE AU NOK-HIN

THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG WING-SHUN, M.H., J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN, B.B.S.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN HOI-YAN

MEMBERS ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN

THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE JUNIUS HO KWAN-YIU, J.P.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1035

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

THE HONOURABLE MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P. CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH, J.P. SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS

THE HONOURABLE JAMES HENRY LAU JR., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY

THE HONOURABLE JOSHUA LAW CHI-KONG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE

THE HONOURABLE JOHN LEE KA-CHIU, S.B.S., P.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY

THE HONOURABLE KEVIN YEUNG YUN-HUNG, J.P. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION

CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:

MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL

MISS ODELIA LEUNG HING-YEE, DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL

MS DORA WAI, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members to the Chamber.

(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members entered the Chamber)

PAPERS TO BE LAID ON THE TABLE OF THE COUNCIL

The following papers were laid on the table under Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Subsidiary Legislation/Instruments Legal Notice No.

Employees Retraining Ordinance (Amendment of Schedule 2) Notice 2019 ...... 159 of 2019

Tax Reserve Certificates (Rate of Interest) (Consolidation) (Amendment) Notice 2019 ...... 160 of 2019

Other Papers

Customs and Excise Service Welfare Fund Financial statements for the year ended 31 March 2019 and its summary, and the Report of the Director of Audit

Customs and Excise Service Children's Education Trust Fund Report by the Trustee for the year 1 April 2018 to 31 March 2019 (including Financial statements and Report of the Director of Audit)

Hong Kong Science and Technology Parks Corporation 2018-2019 Annual Report (including Consolidated Financial Statements and Independent Auditor's Report)

Hong Kong Productivity Council Annual Report, Independent Auditor's Report and Financial Statements 2018-19

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1037

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions. Mr Andrew WAN has informed me in advance that Mr WU Chi-wai will ask the question on his behalf. I now call upon Mr WU Chi-wai to raise the first question.

Police officers publicly condemning senior officials and expressing political views

1. MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): On 26 July this year, the Chief Secretary for Administration ("CS") apologized to members of the public for the Police's handling of the incident of some white-clad men attacking members of the public in the MTR Yuen Long Station. On the same day, the Junior Police Officers' Association of the Hong Kong Police Force ("JPOA") issued a statement in response, "lodging the most severe condemnation" against the drawing of a rash conclusion publicly by CS about the right or wrong of the Hong Kong Police Force, and asking those incumbents with insufficient ability to lead the civil servants to vacate their positions for more capable persons. However, in respect of some civil servants initiating a public meeting, the Government issued a solemn statement on 1 August this year, pointing out that according to the Civil Service Code, civil servants must uphold their political neutrality, and must serve the incumbent Chief Executive ("CE") and Government with total loyalty. On 21 October this year, a police sergeant made a remark on a social networking platform, criticizing CE and the Secretary for Home Affairs for having had an in-depth dialogue with demonstrators earlier on. However, according to the Police General Orders, a police officer should at all times abstain from any activity which is likely or appears to be likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his/her duties, including speaking publicly on matters of a political nature other than in the course of official duties. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether it has assessed if the office-bearers of JPOA, by issuing the aforesaid statement, and the said police sergeant, by making the aforesaid remarks, have breached the Police General Orders and the Civil Service Code; if it has assessed and the outcome is in the affirmative, of the details and the follow-up actions; if the assessment outcome is in the negative, the justifications for that;

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(2) whether it has assessed if the office-bearers of JPOA have overstepped their authority by issuing the statement to condemn CS; if it has assessed and the outcome is in the affirmative, of the follow-up actions; if the assessment outcome is in the negative, the justifications for that; and

(3) given that the Government issued a solemn statement in respect of the public meeting initiated by civil servants but kept silent about the statement issued by JPOA and the remarks made by that police sergeant, of the reasons why the Government adopted different approaches towards the aforesaid situations?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): President, the Government attaches great importance to the conduct of civil servants. Civil servants are required to comply with the Civil Service Code, which sets out, among others, the core values of the civil service that civil servants should uphold, including commitment to the rule of law, dedication, impartiality and political neutrality, etc. According to the Civil Service Code, civil servants must maintain political neutrality. No matter what their own political beliefs are, civil servants shall serve the Chief Executive and the Government of the day with total loyalty and to the best of their ability. Civil servants shall also at all times ensure that their views would not impede their performance of official duties in a professional and fair manner. Apart from the Civil Service Code, Heads of Department may, in light of their operational needs, lay down further regulations for compliance by their staff, so as to serve the same purpose.

Civil servants, like other members of the public, must abide by the law. The Government will not tolerate or condone any civil servant violating the law. If a civil servant is convicted of a criminal offence, we will seriously follow up each case in accordance with the established mechanism.

Having consulted the Security Bureau, my consolidated reply to Mr WU Chi-wai's question is as follows:

(1) and (2)

We do not comment on individual cases. That said, in general, police officers, like other civil servants, are required to comply with the Civil Service Code and when expressing their views, they shall LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1039 ensure that their views would not impede their performance of official duties in a professional and fair manner.

Police officers should also comply with the Police General Orders in abstaining from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his/her duties, or which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst members of the public that it may so interfere. Except for in certain circumstances, a police officer shall not participate in political activities.

The purpose of the above restriction is to ensure all police officers do adopt a fair, just and impartial approach in discharging their duties. The restriction balances the civil rights of officers and the requirement for them to impartially discharge their duties. It also enables the public to appreciate police officers are politically neutral in order to maintain public's confidence and trust in the Police's execution of duties.

At present, the four police staff associations are registered societies under the Societies Ordinance (Cap. 151) and deal with affairs of the association in accordance with their charter, including maintaining the rights of their members, submitting the views on matters which will directly or indirectly affect members to the Commissioner of Police or other concerned authorities, etc.

With regard to statements made by individual police officers on social media, the Complaints Against Police Office ("CAPO") has received one reportable complaint and 14 notifiable complaints, and the cases are under investigation. As regards a police officer criticizing the Chief Executive and the Secretary for Home Affairs for having had an in-depth dialogue with demonstrators earlier on, CAPO has not received any complaint.

Besides, with regard to the Junior Police Officers' Association issuing a statement in response to the Chief Secretary in respect of the 21 July incident in Yuen Long, CAPO has received a notifiable complaint, and investigation is underway.

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(3) The government statement issued on 1 August aims at reminding the civil service of the core values set out in the Civil Service Code. These core values are to ensure that the personal beliefs of civil servants would not affect the effective operation of the Government, as otherwise this may undermine public confidence in civil servants discharging their duties impartially. They are not only the core values of the civil service, but also what the general public expects of civil servants. At the inter-departmental press conference held on 10 October, I have also reiterated the importance of the principle of political neutrality and that civil servants shall at all times ensure that their behaviour would not impede their performance of official duties in a professional and fair manner, so as not to undermine public confidence in civil servants' remaining politically neutral and impartial. In fact, the concerned principles apply to all civil servants, including police officers.

The Government has all along been handling civil service disciplinary matters in accordance with rules and regulations of the civil service under the established mechanism, with due regard to the principle of fairness and impartiality. We will not comment on the disciplinary matters of individual civil servants. Under the current established mechanism, complaints against civil servants will be handled by their respective departments. As such, the cases mentioned in question have been referred to the Hong Kong Police Force to handle and follow up in accordance with the mechanism.

MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): The Secretary refused to comment on individual cases. In general, are civil servants allowed to offend and condemn their superiors? If this is not allowed, how will the authorities deal with civil servants who have offended and condemned their superiors? Are all civil servants allowed to condemn their superiors, Matthew CHEUNG and Carrie LAM?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): President, the Civil Service Code clearly provides that civil servants must maintain political neutrality, that is, no matter what their own political beliefs are, civil servants shall serve the Chief Executive and the Government of the day with total loyalty LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1041 and to the best of their ability. More importantly, when civil servants express their views, they should ensure that their views would not give rise to any conflict of interest with their official duties, or give rise to the impression that the important principle of maintaining impartiality and political neutrality in the course of discharging duties might be compromised. We have all along applied this yardstick to deal with the conduct of civil servants.

(Mr WU Chi-wai wished to follow up on his question but the volume of his microphone was very low. Dr Helena WONG requested loudly that Mr WU's microphone be switched on)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please keep quiet. Secretary, do you have anything to add?

(Mr WU Chi-wai and Mr LAM Cheuk-ting spoke loudly in their seats)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WU, your microphone has been switched on all along. Please point out the part of your supplementary question that has not been answered.

MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): I will repeat as the Secretary has not answered my question. Are civil servants allowed to offend their superiors and condemn Matthew CHEUNG and Carrie LAM?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): President, the Civil Service Code clearly provides that civil servants, being an integral part of the civil service, have their constitutional roles to play, and shall serve the Chief Executive and the Government of the day to the best of their ability. I believe all civil servants are clear that they should take this as the yardstick …

(Mr WU Chi-wai spoke loudly while standing)

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WU Chi-wai, this is not a debate session. Please sit down.

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): … to handle their work. President, I will not comment on individual cases. The Civil Service Bureau has put in place established codes of practices and procedures to address civil servants' disciplinary issues.

DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has been evading questions. Our question is simply whether civil servants are allowed to offend their superiors but he evades the question. Just now, he said that CAPO had not received any complaint about particular cases. However, with a service control department in place, the Police should not have been so passive as to remain idle until complaints are lodged. Has the Police's internal service control department, during the past period, done what it should have done in response to the aforesaid act of subordinates offending seniors, or the Police's failure to respond to the public's requests for assistance?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): Regarding the work of the Police's service control department, I would like to ask the Secretary for Security to help me answer this question.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): While there is a service control department in the police force, disciplinary problems of police officers may not necessarily be handled by a particular control department. In day-to-day operation, internal procedures are in place for the Police to deal with disciplinary offences committed by police officers. Thirteen disciplinary offences are specified in the Police (Discipline) Regulations, the current legislation which governs the discipline of police officers. Members may refer to regulation 3(2) of the Police (Discipline) Regulations for details. The Police may also deal with any uncovered disciplinary offences according to its own procedures and practices.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1043

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, on 31 July this year, five Public Prosecutors openly criticized their superior Teresa CHENG amidst the disturbances arising from the opposition to the proposed legislative amendments. Recently, frequent prosecution mistakes have been made and some of the arrestees have hence been released. My question is: Does the issuance of an anonymous open letter by five Senior Public Prosecutors in the Department of Justice ("DoJ") fall within the ambit of the principle of political neutrality for civil servants? If not …

(Mr Kenneth LEUNG indicated his wish to raise a point of order)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kenneth LEUNG, what is your point of order?

MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, Dr Priscilla LEUNG's supplementary question is not relevant to the main question …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I am also aware of it.

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, my question centres on whether the case should be thoroughly investigated by the Secretary for Justice at her absolute discretion if this case does not fall within the ambit of the Civil Service Code.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEUNG's question is not directly relevant to the main question. Yet, Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): President, generally speaking, all complaints will first be investigated and followed up by relevant departments and policy bureaux. If those DoJ officers are civil servants, they will certainly be bound by the Civil Service Code. Under the relevant procedures, a complaint will, first of all, be investigated and followed up by the department head prior to the making of further decisions on how to take forward the case.

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MS TANYA CHAN (in Cantonese): Chapter 6 of the Police General Orders is entitled "Conduct and Discipline". In PGO 6-01 subtitled "Conduct", paragraph 34 states that "[a] police officer shall at all times abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his/her duties, or which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst members of the public that it may so interfere. In particular, a police officer shall not participate in political activities as defined at the head of this Chapter". Of course, some exceptions are provided. What are "political activities"? In point (b) of its definition, "political activities" include "speaking publicly, including to the media, on matters of a political nature other than in the course of official duties".

My question is: Are the recent remarks made by the police officer dubbed "bald-head sergeant" a gross violation of the rules under the "Conduct" section in Chapter 6 of the Police General Orders? He knowingly did something that he should not have done, but bore no consequence for such violation. Is this situation prevalent in the police force today? Is the SAR Government trying to give full protection to these rule-breaking police officers behind the shield? I have already skipped the point that they should have been disciplined for speaking foul language. All these rules are in black and white and available to the public. I would like to ask Secretary John LEE: How is he going to follow up on this case?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which Secretary will answer the question? Secretary for Security, please answer.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, the Police General Orders do provide in paragraph 34 of PGO 6-01 that "[a] police officer shall at all times abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his/her duties". Regarding the act of "speaking publicly … on matters of a political nature other than in the course of official duties" as mentioned by Ms CHAN just now, first of all, I have to say that I will not comment on a particular remark made by a police officer because, as stated by the Secretary for the Civil Service in the main reply earlier, we do not comment on individual cases. However, in deciding whether this rule applies, we have to consider two factors. Firstly, whether the remarks in question involve political matters; secondly, whether these remarks will affect the impartial discharge of the officer's duties. For a police officer to discharge his/her duties impartially, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1045 he/she shall, above all, act in accordance with the law. Therefore, when we review the conduct of a police officer, our foremost consideration is whether he/she has discharged his/her duties in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong. If he/she has done so, he/she must have discharged his/her duties impartially.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Tanya CHAN, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MS TANYA CHAN (in Cantonese): I am asking the Secretary whether he will follow up on the case! What does he mean by saying that "a police officer must have discharged his/her duties impartially if he/she has discharged his/her duties in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong"? What the hell is he talking about?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, please answer.

MS TANYA CHAN (in Cantonese): Who has defined "impartiality" in this way?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms CHAN, please sit down. This is not a debate session.

(Ms Tanya CHAN kept on speaking loudly)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Tanya CHAN, please sit down. You have already pointed out the part of your supplementary question that has not been answered. Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, in my view, a police officer must have discharged his/her duties impartially if he/she has acted in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong.

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MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): The Secretary mentioned in paragraph 4 of parts (1) and (2) of the main reply that "[a]t present, the four police staff associations are registered societies under the Societies Ordinance (Cap. 151) and deal with affairs of the association in accordance with their charter, including maintaining the rights of their members". I would like to ask: Does the expression "maintaining the rights of their members" concern only the remuneration package of members, but not their political rights?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which Secretary will answer the question? Secretary for Security, please answer.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): As we all know, the word "rights" normally covers rights in different areas. While job benefits are certainly a kind of rights, there are also some other rights. In Hong Kong, police officers are also entitled to the interests and rights prescribed by various legislation and the Basic Law.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kenneth LEUNG, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): Would the Secretary please answer if political rights are covered?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, if we consider this question from a practical perspective, "rights" is a concept which should be taken as a whole. Therefore, if police officers are given such rights under the law, such rights fall within the scope of "rights".

DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): Carrie LAM has once said that the 30 000 police officers are all she has right now. Yet, the Police are so out of control that even overseas parliamentarians have alleged that Hong Kong is run LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1047 by a police government. Her aforesaid unfair remarks have not only aroused discontent among the people, but have also prompted, I believe, complaints from civil servants or other disciplined services about police powers getting out of hand during this period. I would like to ask the Secretary: As far as the civil service team is concerned, have any civil servants lodged complaints about police powers or police conduct?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which Secretary will answer the question? Secretary for the Civil Service, please answer.

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): President, regarding Dr CHENG's supplementary question, both civil servants and police officers are under immense pressure amidst the recent turmoil in Hong Kong. As we all can see, police officers remain dedicated to their duties every day despite grave danger at work, while other civil servants also do their best in their position to support the Police. President, according to my observation, all civil servants are diligent and committed. I urge Members not to magnify one or two glitches …

DR CHENG CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is clear: Have civil servants lodged any complaints about police powers?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE (in Cantonese): President, all I can say is that civil servants are solidly united. Although they may sometimes have diverse views under certain circumstances, channels are in place for them to reflect their views which will then be followed up individually.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Second question.

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San Uk Ling Holding Centre

2. MS TANYA CHAN (in Cantonese): It has been reported that San Uk Ling Holding Centre ("the Centre"), which is close to the boundary, was originally used for detaining illegal entrants pending repatriation. During the period from 5 August to 2 September this year, the Police sent, on a number of occasions, persons arrested in "anti-extradition to China" demonstrations to the Centre for temporary detention. Some persons who had been detained have pointed out that the search rooms and detention rooms in the Centre lack proper lighting and partitioning, and some of them have claimed that they were hurled abuse at, brutally assaulted and even sexually assaulted in the Centre by police officers. The Police have not used the Centre again for detaining demonstrators since 2 September. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) since when the Centre has become a permanent detention facility of the Police; whether there were cases in the past three months that the facilities in the Centre (including detention rooms, search rooms, statement-taking rooms, interview rooms, closed-circuit television systems covering the aforesaid facilities, toilets, lighting equipment, electricity and water supply) were damaged, and whether such facilities are similar to those in most police stations; given that it is the Police's usual practice to send arrestees to nearby police stations for detention, of the specific reasons on each occasion why the Police sent demonstrators to the Centre for detention; the person(s) who made the decision of not using the Centre any more for detaining the arrested demonstrators;

(2) of the total number of demonstrators sent to the Centre for detention during the period from 5 August to 2 September, with a tabulated breakdown by the date on which they were arrested, the age group to which they belonged (i.e. aged below 14, aged 14 to 15, aged 16 to 24, aged 25 to 39, aged 40 to 64 and aged 65 or above), gender, whether injuries were sustained at the time of arrest, and whether injuries were sustained inside the Centre; and

(3) whether it has received any information on and evidence of the brutal assault and sexual assault of detainees by police officers in the Centre; whether it has conducted investigations into the allegations of brutal assault and sexual assault of detainees in the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1049

Centre by police officers; if such investigations have been conducted and the findings indicate that the allegations are substantiated, of the penalties that have been or will be imposed on the police officers concerned?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, the Police always strive to protect the privacy and rights of detained persons, including the rights to seek legal assistance, communicate with a relative or friend, receive copies of written record under caution, be provided with food and drink, seek medical attention, etc.

In general, an arrestee will not be detained for over 48 hours. A person, upon being arrested by the Police, will be brought before the Duty Officer as soon as possible to confirm the legality of his/her custody and arrest. The arrestee will then be handed over to an investigation team for further investigation. After that, the Police will decide whether it is necessary to detain the arrestee.

The Police review its detention facilities from time to time. The last large-scale comprehensive review was conducted between 2008 and 2012. Upon review, the Police comprehensively enhanced the relevant facilities. The security and safety-related improvement measures include:

(a) removing as far as possible secure spots in the detention cells that facilitate tying of knots to inflict self-harm;

(b) altering all sharp edges in the detention facilities and all wall edges to smooth rounded ones;

(c) installing panorama mirrors in the detention cells to ensure that there will not be any blind spots when the police officers inspect the detention facilities;

(d) installing intercom systems to facilitate communication between the detained persons and the officers in charge of the detention facilities; and

(e) applying non-slippery materials on the floors of the detention cells.

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Improvement measures to protect the privacy and rights of detained persons include:

(a) putting clocks in the corridors of detention cells;

(b) providing tissues, wipes and personal hygiene packs;

(c) installing notice boards in the corridors outside detention cells for displaying notices concerning the rights of detained persons; and

(d) installing hot water shower facilities.

My reply to various parts of the question is as follows:

(1) San Uk Ling Holding Centre ("SULHC") in Man Kam To has been in operation since the 1970s and was then mainly used for repatriation of illegal immigrants. Currently, the Police and the Immigration Department jointly use the facility. Similar to other detention centres in general, SULHC meets the basic requirements for safeguarding human rights in terms of its facilities, overall security, as well as protection of the safety, rights, dignity and privacy of detained persons.

SULHC falls under the purview of Ta Kwu Ling Divisional Police Station. Operating round the clock, it is manned by police officers on morning, afternoon and night shifts who are responsible for managing and guarding detained persons. SULHC has four cellblocks with a total of 16 detention cells inside, which can accommodate around 200 detained persons totally. Each detention cell is equipped with stone beds and toilet facilities, with air-conditioning provided, the design of which is similar to other detention cells in general. Lighting devices are installed inside the cellblocks, with misted glass windows. SULHC also has rooms for interviews. During this period (between 5 August and 2 September), there has been no damage report regarding SULHC's facilities.

Demonstrations and conflicts have been ongoing in Hong Kong since 9 June. As at 24 October, the Police arrested a total of 2 711 people. Given the number of people arrested during police LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1051

operations, and that various district police stations were busy with their routine operation and the handling of a large number of people arrested in demonstrations, coupled with the different degrees of attack and damage to individual police stations during demonstrations, the Police, having regard to the usage and capacity of detention cells in each police station, decided to handle some of the arrestees in SULHC due to operational needs. This is to balance the workloads incurred by detention in each district, and ensure that preliminary investigation into the arrestees can be completed and decisions on whether to detain the arrestees can be made as soon as practicable so as to avoid any unnecessary delay. In fact, SULHC is more spacious than any detention centre in an urban police station in general, allowing the Police to handle more detained persons.

(2) From 5 August to 2 September, SULHC had been used for four times in total to handle a total of 182 people arrested for taking part in public events related to the legislative amendments. Among them, there are 126 males and 56 females, aged between 14 and 62. The four occasions were from 5 to 7 August, from 11 to 13 August, from 25 to 26 August and from 1 to 2 September.

Among the 53 arrestees handled in SULHC from 11 to 13 August 2019, 30 claimed that they required medical treatment, with 10 of them reported injuries upon arrival at the centre, while the rest reported different physical illness. No one reported being injured during detention. On the other three occasions when arrestees were handled in the detention centre, no arrestee reported being injured or requested medical treatment during detention.

(3) As at 31 October, the Complaints Against Police Office ("CAPO") received three complaints related to SULHC, including one complaint regarding allegations of misconduct and impoliteness, and two complaints not made by the aggrieved party which involved allegations of assault and neglect of duty respectively. There has been no complaint relating to the so-called sexual assault of detainees. While CAPO is following up on the complaints, the Independent Police Complaints Council will, upon receipt of all relevant investigation reports, fully examine them based on evidence in a fair, just and impartial manner.

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MS TANYA CHAN (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported earlier in the press that the Police have compiled statistics on the numbers of people arrested in the "anti-extradition to China" movement each month, especially the occasions on which more than 100 persons were arrested on a single day. While the Chief Executive announced at a community forum conducted in late September that SULHC was not used any more, it still leaves a host of questions, including the aforesaid complaints. The Government has all along justified the use of the Centre on the ground that a large number of persons were arrested. In part (1) of the main question, I asked explicitly about the person(s) who made the decision of no longer using the Centre for detaining the arrested demonstrators, but this part was not answered in the main reply. President, I think I do at least have the right to pursue this question. Why didn't the Bureau directly answer my question, i.e. who made the decision?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, a simple answer is, the decision was made by the commander of police officers after consideration.

MS TANYA CHAN (in Cantonese): Is it a decision made by 30 000-odd police officers or someone else?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Tanya CHAN, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MS TANYA CHAN (in Cantonese): President, I asked him who that person was. Is it a collective decision made by 30 000-odd police officers? Is it a decision made by voting or what? My question is super clear: Who made the decision?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms CHAN, you have already pointed out the part of your supplementary question that has not been answered. Please sit down. Secretary, do you have anything to add?

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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, given that the Commissioner of Police is responsible for all the decisions made, the Police's decision to stop using the Centre should eventually have been agreed to by the Commissioner of Police.

MR SHIU KA-CHUN (in Cantonese): President, if the Police have stopped using SULHC, why did a police officer say "buggery in the Centre is fun and you can no longer speak up once you are in the Centre" when he arrested a student reporter of the Hong Kong Baptist University on Sunday? Why did he say so if the Police have already stopped using the Centre?

According to a public opinion poll conducted by Ming Pao in mid-October, more than half of the respondents have no trust in the Police at all. Since the Bureau advised that the Police have already stopped using the Centre for detention purpose, will it arrange Members to visit the Centre and other detention centres so as to allay public concerns?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): I must point out that from our experience, after a person has been arrested and is facing possible prosecution, the arrestee tends to make various accusations or complaints. Nonetheless, their accusations or complaints must be based on facts. Therefore, I am not going to respond to the remarks made by some persons, especially those made when they were arrested and were facing possible prosecutions in future.

Furthermore, as to whether the Centre is still being used, future arrestees can answer this question. In fact, we can see that people who have been detained are free to talk about their experience, though it may not necessarily be based on facts. As stated by the Police, the Centre will no longer be used and the major reason is to avoid further unfounded allegations or speculation, which will in turn avoid unnecessary disputes or discussion in society.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SHIU Ka-chun, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

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MR SHIU KA-CHUN (in Cantonese): What the Secretary said is …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SHIU, please directly point out the part of your supplementary question that has not been answered. This is not a debate session.

MR SHIU KA-CHUN (in Cantonese): Will he make an arrangement for Members to visit the Centre and other detention centres?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SHIU, you have already pointed out the part of your supplementary question that has not been answered. Please sit down. Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I believe this proposal can be raised to the Panel on Security for a decision to be made by that Panel.

MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): President, the Police have arrested a large number of demonstrators in the riots that have dragged on for nearly five months. Why did the Police use that Centre? Is it because there is insufficient space in various police stations to detain the arrestees, or the police stations have been subject to various degrees of attack? Is it because the police stations in the urban area do not have sufficient space to detain demonstrators? If so, how do the Police handle suspects who have committed other offences? If there is insufficient space to detain other criminals in police stations, where will they be detained? How do the Police handle the large number of detained rioters at present?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG, you have raised a number of questions. Secretary, please answer one of them.

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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): I thank Mr WONG for his supplementary question. As a matter of fact, there have been a lot of processions and demonstrations lately, and numerous persons have been arrested for committing violent acts. As Members may be aware, the Police have arrested about 3 000 people so far. This number contrasts greatly with the number of people arrested for taking part in such activities over the past 20-odd years, and has created varying degrees of pressure on police stations, police officers and detention facilities. I absolutely agree with this point.

Therefore, in considering the use of detention facilities to handle a large number of detainees, the Police must take into account various factors, including those mentioned in the main reply. As what Mr WONG has said, we have to expeditiously deal with the matter without affecting the day-to-day operation of police stations. According to past practices, arrestees will be sent to local police stations for detention. However, if more than 100 persons were arrested in the same district, the local police stations would have to handle more than 100 arrestees at the same time, and this will definitely lead to overcrowded conditions and delayed processing of cases. Therefore, the Police have, based on such a consideration, scattered the arrestees in different detention facilities.

Regarding Mr WONG's question on whether the presence of a large number of detainees in police stations will affect the detention of criminals who have committed other offences, my answer is in the affirmative. We must face the fact, which is also something I wish to tell Members, that amid endless violent demonstrations and relentless actions to disturb social tranquility, the Police's manpower and services are subject to tremendous pressure. As a result, many routine services can no longer be provided. The reality is, while police manpower is limited, the workload to be handled is overwhelmingly heavy. With only 24 hours a day and just two arms and two legs, we have to face the fact that, and I wish to tell Members loud and clear that, endless violence will only damage our society as a whole in various aspects. Manpower pressure will not only take a toll on our work in protecting the public's property and personal safety, but the level of our services will also definitely decline.

Therefore, to put it simply, in deciding the way and the place in which an arrestee is detained, the Police must take into consideration the practical operational needs, the smooth flow of operation and the need to keep other spheres of work intact, so as to reduce the pressure borne by various police 1056 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 stations. And, in particular, apart from having to handle the detainees, many police stations are also attacked, besieged and vandalized, it is thus necessary for the Police to take corresponding measures and consider a myriad of factors.

MR CHU HOI-DICK (in Cantonese): In part (1) of the main question, Ms Tanya CHAN asked about the "closed-circuit television systems covering the aforesaid facilities", but the Government has not mentioned any closed-circuit television system in its main reply. I would like to ask: Is it true that there is no closed-circuit television system in SULHC? Is it the major difference between SULHC and other detention facilities?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): While no closed-circuit television system had been installed in the Centre back then, such a system was installed by the Police in SULHC in October.

(Mr CHU Hoi-dick stood up to indicate his wish to ask a follow-up question)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary has already answered your supplementary question.

MR CHU HOI-DICK (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my question. Is this the major difference between SULHC and other detention facilities?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): I believe we may say this is how they differ from one another as SULHC had not installed any closed-circuit television system back then, but the relevant system was already in place after October.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1057

DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): President, just now the Secretary pointed out in the main reply that as at 31 October, there has been no complaint relating to the so-called sexual assault of detainees in SULHC. However, as we have seen from the television earlier, a female student from The Chinese University of Hong Kong surnamed NG said that the Police had requested some arrestees to take off their clothes in the "dark room" of SULHC, and more than one such arrestee had been subject to sexual violence, sexual assault and brutal assault. The female student surnamed NG said that was what she personally experienced at that time.

I would like to ask the Secretary: Have the Police followed up with and approached this female student so as to get a clear picture of what had happened?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): I believe the Police and the Government had pointed out on various occasions that recently we have come across a great deal of groundless rumours as well as unsubstantiated smearing remarks and accusations. With regard to the alleged sexual assault in SULHC as mentioned by the Member just now, I have already explained very clearly that no such complaint has been received.

In addition, I have also noticed that the person who made the allegation had suddenly changed the alleged crime scene from SULHC to Tsuen Wan Police Station, which means that the crime scene had changed. Furthermore, details of the allegation had also changed. While she initially alleged that she had been stripped off her clothes, but later said that somebody had patted her body.

We have not yet received any complaint from the person concerned, and if the allegations represent genuine experience, I hope that the person concerned can expeditiously lodge a complaint with us and give a statement. In the course of giving a statement, everyone will be held accountable for what they said, and no one can make groundless, unsubstantiated and irresponsible remarks. We will certainly handle the complaint in a fair and just manner. Everyone is equal before the law. We will seriously follow up on each and every complaint.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Third question.

1058 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Incident of assaults at MTR Yuen Long Station on 21 July

3. MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): President, I would like to, first of all, declare that I was one of those being hit and injured in the 21 July incident and I would probably institute civil proceedings to claim damages.

It has been reported that from late night on 21 July this year to the early hours on the following day, a large number of white-clad men (some of them suspected to be members of triad societies) assaulted members of the public and journalists with weapons at MTR Yuen Long Station and its vicinity. After launching the assaults, the white-clad men went into Nam Bin Wai Village and gathered there. A police superintendent led a team of police officers into the village to carry out criminal investigation, and talked with the white-clad men in the village office. He subsequently told the journalists at the scene that no one holding offensive weapons had been spotted, and he did not make any arrest on the spot. Some members of the public queried that the Police had let the criminals walk free and colluded with triad societies. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) as a Yuen Long District Council member has indicated that he conveyed to the Police on 19 July the intelligence that some people were planning to launch assaults, and the Police had replied that they "will certainly make corresponding deployment plans", of the deployment plans made by the Police for the day on which the incident happened, the manpower deployed to tackle the incident, and whether plain-clothed police officers were sent to the nearby areas to conduct surveillance;

(2) given that a large number of white-clad men loitered at Kai Tei outside Yuen Long Station at dusk on that day, why the police officers in several police cars passing by that area did not disembark to disperse the white-clad men; why the Police merely deployed two police constables to the scene upon receipt of reports of a large number of people launching assaults; given that the reinforcement police officers who subsequently arrived at the scene left the scene after being criticized by members of the public, and the white-clad men subsequently re-entered the station and launched another round of assaults, whether it has assessed if the police officers' failure to remain at the scene constitutes a disregard of public safety and a dereliction of the duty to collect evidence, and whether the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1059

Government will apologize in this regard to all Hong Kong people, in particular those who were injured in the incident; if not, of the reasons for that; and

(3) given that while the aforesaid superintendent is one of the accused in the alleged police-triad collusion, it has been reported that he has recently been transferred to take charge of a unit responsible for investigating the aforesaid assault case, whether it has assessed if such duty arrangement will give rise to any conflict of roles or interests; whether it has assessed if the Police's failure to make arrests on the spot has increased the difficulty in arresting the assailants, and whether the fact that only six persons have been prosecuted so far with the mastermind still being at large has reflected that the Police's investigation work is perfunctory and that the Police have condoned the assailants?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government ("the SAR Government") will never tolerate violent acts or condone violent radicals. In respect of the serious violent clashes that took place on the night of 21 July at the Yuen Long Station of the West Rail Line ("WRL"), the Police have commenced full investigation. As at 31 October, a total of 35 persons aged from 18 to 61 were arrested. Six of them are charged with "taking part in a riot" and "conspiracy to wound with intent", etc. The Police's investigation is still ongoing, and the likelihood of further arrests is not excluded. In fact, a person was also arrested yesterday according to the information on hand.

In respect of complaints, the Independent Police Complaints Council ("IPCC") has set up a special task force to proactively study the large-scale public order events arising from the legislative amendments since 9 June. The scope of study covers the violent incident in Yuen Long on 21 July. The Complaints Against Police Office ("CAPO") has received 74 complaints in relation to the incident and is actively looking into the matter. IPCC will also specifically study the incident. Besides, two persons have applied for a judicial review of the Police's handling of the incident, and another person has raised a civil lawsuit. As such, while answering the questions raised by the Member as far as practicable, I must do so on the principle of not causing prejudice to the relevant investigations and judicial proceedings.

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My reply to various parts of the question is as follows:

(1) As indicated earlier by the Police at a press conference, the Police had received information about the activities in Yuen Long on 21 July beforehand, but the information available at the time, including the nature and circumstances of activities, was inconsistent. Upon assessment, the Police deployed uniformed and plain-clothed officers in Yuen Long to work on vehicles and on the ground, and activated an operation command centre at 6:00 pm that evening for monitoring and responding to the situation.

Details of the Police's deployment in Yuen Long that day, such as the handling of calls, understanding the situation at the scene and changes, manpower deployment, etc., involve operational tactics and strategies, disclosure of which is inappropriate lest it affects the effectiveness of the general operational deployment in future.

(2) The New Territories 999 Regional Command and Control Centre handles about 2 300 calls on average every day. However, within the few hours between 10:00 pm and 1:30 am on the night of the Yuen Long incident, the New Territories 999 Regional Command and Control Centre received over 24 000 calls. The situation was extremely unusual; it was a hundred times of what is normal and the number was far overloaded.

Some people appealed on the Internet to members of the public to make 999 calls together, draining the Police in handling the calls, deliberately causing nuisance and paralysing the 999 emergency service. The abuse of 999 service that night was extremely serious, making it not only impossible for members of the public who had actual needs to call the Police for help, but also difficult for the Police to determine the authenticity of the reports, seriously hampering the Police's assessment of the situation and corresponding deployment.

Shortly before the violent incident which occurred at WRL Yuen Long Station, the Police received numerous reports, including persons being assaulted in "Kai Tei", fire and traffic incidents, etc., where a number of police vehicles were dispatched to the locations LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1061

concerned to handle such reports. Upon receiving the report on the violent incident at the WRL Yuen Long Station, the Police immediately sent officers to the scene.

Police officers arrived at the WRL Yuen Long Station at about 10:52 pm where a large number of people who were emotionally unstable were found at the scene. Upon making risk assessment, they reported the situation to their supervisor, requested reinforcement and stood by in the vicinity. I wish to point out that police officers often face severe threats to their personal safety when dealing with protests and clashes in recent months. At the weekend prior to the incident that occurred at Yuen Long Station, that is 14 July, a large number of mobs attacked the Police inside the Sha Tin New Town Plaza, causing serious injuries to a number of officers, including one police officer whose finger was bitten off.

Upon arrival at the WRL Yuen Long Station, the reinforcement team was once surrounded by more than a hundred people who were emotionally unstable and hurling abuses. The team could only retreat from the station area after assisting the ambulance personnel to move the injured out of the station.

Regarding police vehicles driving past "Kai Tei" many times without making dispersal operations as mentioned in the question, according to the information of the Police, the officers concerned did not find any acts of breach of the peace when passing by the area three times that night. With regard to gatherings which do not involve breach of the peace, the Police's operation will generally consider the overall intelligence at the time to decide whether or not to take some immediate actions.

With regard to the Police's operation on the day, CAPO has already started investigating into the complaints received. The Police will actively assist IPCC in conducting the independent study to ensure fair and impartial investigation.

(3) Regarding the alleged "police-triad allusion" as mentioned in the question, these are extremely unfounded and malicious allegations. I must point out seriously that the Police always stand against 1062 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

lawbreakers (especially triads) and definitely fight against them comprehensively. The Police have a full-fledged strategy in combating triads, planning undercover operations from time to time, as well as protectively blocking the income source and criminal proceeds of triads. The Police's determination and efforts in combating triads are resolute. These can be clearly seen from the figures of operation, arrest and prosecution.

During case investigation, police officers will make arrests when there is reasonable suspicion and sufficient evidence. If police officers do not make arrest on the spot, it does not mean that the Police will not conduct subsequent follow-up or arrest. As I have said before, so far 35 persons have been arrested in the case, with six persons charged with the offences of "riot" and "conspiracy to wound with intent".

As for the transfer of a police officer mentioned in the question, this is an internal personnel transfer within the Police Force. These transfers happen every now and then as part of the general operation of the Police Force. Under all circumstances during case investigation, the Police will spare no efforts in investigating the relevant cases impartially and in bringing suspects to justice.

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): President, John LEE's reply has reached "the standard of absolute nonsense" by confusing right and wrong. He tried to shirk the responsibility of the Police in condoning triad members indiscriminately attacking members of the public with weapons, and put the blame on those members of the public for making too many calls to the Police, thus making it difficult for the Police to assess the situation. Members of the public made 999 calls only because the Police had not taken any action at the time.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM Cheuk-ting, please raise your supplementary question directly.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1063

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): President, when pro-establishment Members raised their first supplementary questions, you always allowed them to respond to the main replies given by public officers beforehand. I only spoke briefly just now and you have already urged me to raise my supplementary question. President, is that fair?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM, please raise your supplementary question directly.

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): I will raise my question very soon, President, if you do not interrupt me.

The Secretary said that the intelligence received prior to the 21 July incident was inconsistent. Did he mean that the Police did not have to take any precautionary measures? At about 6:00 pm that evening, hundreds of people had gathered outside MTR Yuen Long Station, was the situation consistent with the intelligence received? I asked the Secretary about the deployment of police manpower in Yuen Long; he did not answer and said that it involved operational tactics and strategies. What tactics were employed? Not any. The Police simply allowed triad members to brutally attack the civilians. How can John LEE blame those members of the public who reported to the Police? The Police did not deal with …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM Cheuk-ting, if you do not raise your supplementary question directly, I will ask you to stop speaking.

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): President, I will soon raise my question. Allow me to finish what I was saying and I will be quick, OK?

There were plain-clothed police officers conducting surveillance at the scene …

1064 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM Cheuk-ting, this is the last warning I give you. If you do not raise your supplementary question directly …

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): That is ridiculous. Don't go too far, Andrew LEUNG. When pro-establishment Members raised their supplementary questions after the main questions …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have spoken for two minutes without raising your supplementary question.

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): You have spent more than half a minute to interrupt my speech, Andrew LEUNG …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please raise your supplementary question at once.

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): OK, I will raise my question now.

John LEE, please answer earnestly. After such a serious incident on the 21st of July, why haven't you, as the Secretary for Security, bowed and apologized to large number of Hong Kong people and large number of injured persons? Why haven't you taken the responsibility and stepped down? It is really outrageous.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, first of all, as Mr LAM Cheuk-ting said that he might claim damages regarding this incident, I understand that he has his stance on this matter. I must point out that in this …

(Mr LAM Cheuk-ting indicated his wish to raise a point of order)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM Cheuk-ting, what is your point of order?

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1065

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): I suspect that the remarks made by John LEE is tantamount to imputing my motive of asking the question.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, are you imputing the motive of Mr LAM Cheuk-ting?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, as he said that he might claim damages, I was merely repeating the facts that he had told me.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, please continue.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): As I have clearly stated in the main reply, the SAR Government will never tolerate violent acts or condone violent elements. Thus, we have urged the Police to spare no effort in investigating the case. I have also mentioned in the main reply that six persons have been prosecuted and 35 have been arrested so far.

Furthermore, I pointed out earlier that one more person was arrested yesterday. This shows that the Government, and I in particular, is very concerned about this incident and we will never tolerate such violent acts. Nevertheless, this case consists of many elements, including criminal investigation. Besides, CAPO will look into the whole approach in handling the matter, prepare an investigation report and submit it to IPCC. As I said earlier, some of the issues mentioned by Mr LAM Cheuk-ting earlier are also covered in the 70-odd complaints received by us.

When I answered this question earlier, I made it very clear that while I will answer the questions raised by the Member as far as practicable, I must do so on the principle of not causing prejudice to the relevant investigations, legal proceedings and lawsuits. However, no matter how much effort is put in the investigations, this incident, one that we would never have tolerated, has actually happened. I would like to raise one very important issue: What were the circumstances when this incident happened? On the day in question, there was a large-scale procession on the Hong Kong Island and the Police had to deploy manpower there. In addition, in many districts, roads were blocked, public 1066 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 properties were destroyed, some people (including police officers) were assaulted, etc. The Police therefore had to deploy manpower to all such districts. These are the facts that I must tell Members.

Thus, I pointed out in my earlier reply that the endless processions and demonstrations had surely taken a toll on police manpower, which would certainly affect the services provided by the Police. After this incident, how can the Police make better deployment in coping with similar incidents in future? Certainly, CAPO will proactively conduct investigations and after IPCC has studied the findings, it will definitely make recommendations. By that time, we will seriously consider the recommendations.

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): President, he has not answered my supplementary question.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAM Cheuk-ting, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR LAM CHEUK-TING (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is: Why has the Secretary not bowed and apologized to members of the public, taken the responsibility and stepped down? He talked a lot of nonsense and did not respond to my question at all.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I believe different people have different roles to play in this incident. Even Mr LAM Cheuk-ting himself had participated in the incident and he had a role to play too. After the investigations are completed and the truth of the incident is revealed, we will then consider how to follow the matter up.

MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): President, it is futile to listen to the replies of the Secretary.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1067

The 21 July incident is the biggest scandal involving the Police in history. As the Secretary for Security, has John LEE earnestly protected the reputation of the Police? Has he earnestly responded to the people's complaint that there was "a period of police absence"? Has he earnestly considered taking full responsibility, resigning, bowing to the people and stepping down? John LEE, many people resent you, including some from within the Police Force. The Secretary should be aware that he earns more than $300,000 a month out of the pockets of Hong Kong people.

The Secretary said that he did not know when the truth of the incident would be revealed and cautioned that investigations should not be hampered. In fact, the matter is very simple. According to the opinion polls, the Secretary of Department with the lowest popularity rating is Teresa CHENG and the Director of Bureau with the lowest popularity rating is John LEE. When would John LEE be willing to step down? Can he respond to it?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I have pointed out many times that I will stay in my post to handle the prevailing violent incidents, in particular.

MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): President, please allow me to ask a follow-up question. My supplementary question is very clear, isn't it? I asked him when he would step down …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWONG, you have raised your supplementary question and the Secretary has answered it.

MR KWONG CHUN-YU (in Cantonese): He has not answered my question. I asked him when he would step down …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If you are not satisfied with the Secretary's answer, you can follow it up through other channels.

1068 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

MR ALVIN YEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the 21 July incident is a watershed which has made Hong Kong people lose all confidence in the Hong Kong Police Force. John LEE has copiously given us three pages of replies and put the blame on the large number of members of the public who called the Police to report crime. In fact, members of the public called the Police only because there was no police officer at the scene. They called the Police only because they could not see any police officer in the live streaming of the incident. But the Secretary put the blame on Hong Kong people instead.

The replies given by John LEE intended to shirk all his responsibilities. I would like to ask John LEE to state clearly in front of Hong Kong people: Has the Hong Kong Police Force not committed the slightest error on the evening of 21 July? Does John LEE think that the Hong Kong Police Force of the SAR Government, on that evening, did a flawless job in all aspects in terms of its strategies, manpower deployment and arrangement?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, Mr YEUNG's remarks have deviated from what I said in my earlier replies. He cannot put words into my mouth. I pointed out earlier that the Police faced various kinds of difficulties and pressure in handling this incident. At the press conferences held by the Police, various police officers and commanders had said that they would review the incident. After the review, there will certainly be room for improvement in various aspects.

I said earlier that I hope the Police will make further improvements after reviewing the incident, but everyone should seriously try to understand the whole situation. When the Police tackle any case, they will consider a number of factors. The first factor is the deployment plans of the Police. Other factors include the actual circumstances of the case, the place in which the incident occurred, the number of people involved and the attitude of the people towards the Police while they are tackling the matter. Thus, in this incident, we had to consider the surrounding circumstances, what happened at the time, etc. I have described the circumstances of the case only to enable Members to understand the objective facts of the case as a whole.

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MR JEREMY TAM (in Cantonese): President, when John LEE replied to the Member's main question, he tried to explain in part (2) of the main reply why the two police officers turned round and left upon arrival at the scene. He mentioned that upon making risk assessment, the two officers found the situation risky and considering that the people at the scene were emotionally unstable, they therefore requested reinforcement and stood by in the vicinity. When the Secretary tried to explain why the police vehicles and police officers passed by "Kai Tei" many times without making dispersal operations, he surprisingly said, "the officers concerned did not find any acts of breach of the peace". At that time, all the people there were holding wooden sticks and metal rods, but it turns out that it was not considered as an act of breach of the peace. If so, why was singing in a shopping arcade by a group of ordinary people considered a breach of the peace which warranted entry of anti-riot police officers into the shopping arcade to assault them? What standards is the Secretary upholding?

At that time, the two police officers at the scene were equipped with guns and weapons, why did they not go forward to protect members of the public? Were their guns only used for shooting students by aiming at their chests or, according to the Police, at their "shoulders"? Is such use considered an appropriate use of weapons? Why did police officers not use their weapons to protect members of the public? Even if there were only two police officers at the scene, members of the public had expectations of them. What does "without fear" mean? Secretary John LEE, considering the performance of these police officers, do you think that, in the eyes of Hong Kong people or the Hong Kong Government, the Hong Kong Police Force still champions the spirit of "without fear"?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I will leave it to the Police to investigate whether the situation described by Mr TAM reflects the truth. According to the information available to me, a crowd had gathered at the scene at the time. I believe it is now commonplace for crowds to gather in Hong Kong, and crowds may gather in different places every day. However, we have to leave it to the Police to investigate whether the people concerned had breached the peace. It will surely be easy to find evidence in the course of handling the complaints.

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Certainly, the Police have also admitted that there is a gap between their handling of this incident and the expectations of the people. Thus, the Police will cautiously cooperate with CAPO in its investigations in the hope that upon completion of the investigations, the Police will carefully examine the recommendations put forth by CAPO so that the Police can better handle similar situations in future.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fourth question.

(Mr Jeremy TAM stood up to indicate his wish to ask a follow-up question)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TAM, the time limit for this oral question is up. Please follow up through other channels.

(Mr Jeremy TAM remained standing and spoke loudly)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TAM, please sit down.

Internet messages which are fake and jeopardize public safety

4. MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): President, in recent months, radical demonstrators have resorted to various kinds of illegal and violent acts, including hurling petrol bombs, detonating remote-controlled bombs, setting fire at entrances/exits of MTR stations and shops, as well as attacking police officers with corrosive fluid, iron rods and sharpened objects. Some members of the public are concerned that the fact that demonstrators' acts are increasingly violent may be linked to the prevalence of messages on the Internet which are fake, provoke sentiments of hatred and rationalize violence. It has been reported that some countries have enacted legislation to combat the dissemination of messages on the Internet which are fake and jeopardize public safety. For example, Germany enacted the Network Enforcement Act in 2017, France enacted the Law Against the Manipulation of Information and the Law Against False Information in 2018, and Singapore enacted the Protection from Online Falsehoods and Manipulation Bill this year. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

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(1) whether it will enact legislation to combat the dissemination of messages on the Internet which are fake and jeopardize public safety; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and

(2) whether it will amend the existing legislation or enact new legislation to specifically combat acts on the Internet of aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring the commission by other persons of any offence; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, Hong Kong residents enjoy the freedom of speech under the Basic Law, but that freedom is not absolute. According to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as applied to Hong Kong and the Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance (Cap. 383), the exercise by anyone of the right to freedom of expression carries with it special duties and responsibilities, and may therefore be subject to certain restrictions as provided by law as necessary for (1) respect of the rights or reputations of others, or (2) the protection of national security or of public order, or of public health or morals.

The Internet is not an unreal world that is beyond the law. As far as the existing legislation in Hong Kong is concerned, most of the crime-prevention laws in the real world are applicable to the online world. Therefore, the public should use the Internet lawfully and properly.

Police officers have the statutory responsibility to maintain public safety and public order, as well as safeguard people's lives and property, and will strictly enforce the law against lawbreakers committing illegal acts through the Internet.

My consolidated reply to both parts of the question is as follows:

As mentioned above, most of the laws in the real world are applicable to the online world. Any acts inciting others to break the law or relating to online bullying, as long as they involve criminal offences, are regulated by the relevant laws regardless of whether they were committed online. For example, criminal intimidation under section 24 of the Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200) and blackmail under section 23 of the Theft Ordinance (Cap. 210) are also applicable to online acts. Furthermore, inappropriate speech published online may also contravene other offences, such as the data protection principles under the Personal Data 1072 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

(Privacy) Ordinance (Cap. 486), infringement of copyright, or libel, etc. Publishing information online that might threaten public safety may also infringe the common law offence of incitement to commit public nuisance.

Besides, according to section 89 of the Criminal Procedure Ordinance (Cap. 221), any person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the commission by another person of any offence shall be guilty of the like offence. Under common law, inciting others to commit any substantive offence is also itself an offence. In short, any act of inciting others to commit an offence is already an offence.

Under the existing legal framework, if an act that would be illegal in the real world was committed online, the Police can enforce the law with the relevant legislation. The Government has been paying close attention to acts of committing or aiding and abetting others to commit online offences and their trends.

We are aware of legislation overseas relating to the online publication of information that is false or may prejudice public safety, and will observe closely their effectiveness as well as the enforcement process.

In view of the rapid developments associated with information technology, the computer and the Internet, as well as the potential for them to be exploited for carrying out criminal activities, the Law Reform Commission ("LRC") has established in January this year a subcommittee to study the topic of cybercrime. In the course of its study, the subcommittee will identify the challenges arising from such rapid developments, review existing legislation and other relevant measures, examine relevant developments in other jurisdictions, and recommend possible law reforms. We will pay close attention to the subcommittee's recommendations.

Since this June, there have been numerous instances of violent protests and vandalizing acts in many districts of Hong Kong, including but not limited to criminal damage to property, assaults of the person, riots, and arson, etc. Internet-based platforms have been abused by some to incite protesters to participate in unlawful activities, to promote the use of weapons, and to mobilize protesters to damage targeted properties and injure targeted individuals (in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1073 particular police officers). Such acts have seriously breached public safety, and posed a grave danger to life (especially specific target groups such as the Police or those with particular political views) and property.

The Secretary for Justice, as guardian of the public interest, successfully applied to the Court on 31 October an injunction to restrain persons from unlawfully and wilfully disseminating, circulating, publishing or republishing on any Internet-based platform or medium any material or information that promotes, encourages or incites the use or threat of violence, intended or likely to cause bodily injury to any person unlawfully or damage to any property unlawfully within Hong Kong. The injunction also restrains persons from unlawfully and wilfully assisting, causing, counselling, procuring, instigating, inciting, aiding, abetting or authorizing others to commit any of the aforesaid acts or participate in any of the aforesaid acts.

Over the past few months, a lot of false information has been circulated online and in the social media, especially a vast amount of fake news and baseless accusations that targeted the Police. Most of these unsubstantiated messages twist the facts, create panic in the community, deepen the confrontation and division in society, and disrupt the police-community relation. The Government strongly condemns the wilful spread of these rumours online, and will endeavour to provide the relevant facts and information to dispel the false information. Citizens should remain objective and rational, and should not readily believe fabricated online rumours.

The Police will continue to closely monitor potential criminal activities online, conduct targeted searches professionally on public online platforms for pertinent criminal information, and take enforcement action. The Government will not tolerate any illegal or violent acts, or acts that prejudice public safety or public order, and will take stringent follow-up actions.

MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): President, at present many people fabricate fake news and information and publish them online. Many people then circulate such fake news, resulting in many violent acts. My question is very straightforward: Will the Government amend existing legislation or enact new legislation that targets at combating such acts? According to the Government's answer, it seemed that it was trying to pass the buck to LRC but the scope of 1074 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 cybercrime is very wide, instead of certain targeted crimes. Since the Government also considers it a serious problem and it has also applied to the Court for an injunction, I hope that the Government can conduct a thematic study and enact new legislation as soon as possible so as to specifically deal with the prevailing acts of disseminating fake news or information online.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I thank Ms QUAT for her supplementary question. As regards legislation, we hold an open and proactive attitude. In respect of the overseas legislation mentioned by Ms QUAT, for example, laws enacted in Germany, Singapore and France, we have reviewed and considered whether they are applicable to Hong Kong. Concerning information published online, apart from safeguarding the property and personal safety of the general public, we must also consider how to balance it with the freedom of speech.

We have examined the legislation in this respect in various countries, for example, Germany requires the media to expeditiously remove hatred-inciting information, fake news and illegal information. It is also our policy objective but when it comes to enforcement, it is very important to strike the right balance between combating the dissemination of illegal information that harms the general interests of society on the whole and ensuring free and open use of the Internet by the public in their daily lives. This is also a very controversial subject.

When studying and considering all factors on the whole, we hope that we can take into account the experience of overseas countries and LRC's recommendations fully. The Government holds an open and positive attitude toward this issue.

MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): President, in his main reply, the Secretary mentioned that the Secretary for Justice successfully applied to the Court for an injunction on 31 October. That action obviously bypassed the law, taking advantage of the uncertainties over the scope of the injunction and even the excessively wide loopholes in order to monitor the public. I am deeply worried that the industry will be implicated, and so are many members of the public and members in the industry. Someone has revealed that recently the Police have written to social media platforms, demanding the deletion of posts LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1075 which the Police considered to be damaging the Police's reputation. That was a very subjective judgment and it also bypassed the law. It seems that the Police consider themselves to be the law, rather than act in accordance with the law. That is an abuse of power and infringement of freedom of speech. Recently the Security Bureau has time and again instructed the Department of Justice to apply for injunctions one after another under the draconian law. I wonder if it would again …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MOK, please raise your supplementary question directly.

MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is: Is it the Government's current plot or objective to introduce the China-style Great Firewall in Hong Kong to carry out the measures of filtering websites and IP addresses, etc.? Will the authorities even bring in Mainland experts to help ban certain websites? Are the authorities considering or will consider such measures?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): I think that the discussion in the Legislative Council should provide accurate information to the public and I do not want to see them being fed with any misleading information. What I just mentioned concerns the number of …

MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): He is questioning my … misleading. You either clearly say …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, please clarify.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Just now I was saying that this Council should provide accurate information to the people and the information given should not be misleading. Mr MOK has no need to be so tensed up. Please listen clearly to what I say. I will be very careful.

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First, in this Council, we should provide accurate information to the public. I must point out that the three injunctions were granted by the Court. When the Court grants an injunction, it will certainly follow the requirements and standards prescribed by law, and hence it is prudent and solemn in doing so. Any unreasonable description made on the granting of such injunctions may not be constructive to the spirit of the rule of law on the whole. This is the first point.

Second, the injunction order being discussed expressly provides that it seeks to restrain unlawful and wilful acts. If Members have paid attention, especially if Mr MOK has paid attention, they should know that the three injunction orders expressly seek to restrain those acts that are unlawfully and wilfully committed. If certain acts are unlawful and wilful, it makes perfect sense that they should be restrained, which is consistent with the spirit of the rule of law in Hong Kong.

Of course, the acts prescribed in the injunctions are also banned under the Crimes Ordinance. I have noticed the report that when granting one of the injunctions, the judge pointed out clearly that it was to send out a clear message to the public that illegal acts committed in the real world are also illegal if committed online. It was also the same important message I wished to send out in the main reply. I hope that this Council will send out to the public a correct message, that is, illegal acts are offences, no matter committed in the real world or on the Internet.

MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered my supplementary question.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MOK, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): Injunctions can be challenged. You cannot say that it is absolutely correct …

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1077

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MOK, this is not a debate session. Please directly point out the part of your supplementary question that has not been answered.

MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): … But the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. I asked whether he would consider introducing the China-style Great Firewall in its policy.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): The correct information that I just talked about is concerned with the actual policies and measures implemented in accordance with the laws and regulations of Hong Kong.

MR HOLDEN CHOW (in Cantonese): President, false information, which prejudices public safety in particular, is spread very quickly and it can cause great damage to society. Mr Junius HO was unfortunately stabbed this morning and now some hate speech is going viral on the Internet. Singapore has legislated against the dissemination of false information. The Secretary has said in the main reply that the publication of information that threatens public safety is also regulated under the existing legislation and publishing such information may infringe the common law offence of incitement to commit public nuisance. I would like to know if there have been any successful prosecution cases so far.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, the Police have in their actions arrested a number of persons suspected of publishing on the Internet information that prejudiced public safety and public order. Such investigations require the collection of evidence in various aspects. Since evidence on the Internet usually straddles different geographical regions, the gathering of evidence may require the assistance of overseas law enforcement departments and it will take a longer time. After investigation, the Police will refer the case to the Department of Justice to determine whether the evidence is sufficient for instituting prosecution.

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We have also noticed, and I have also mentioned just now, that Singapore has enacted legislation to ban false representations that may prejudice public safety and public order in Singapore, as well as the friendly relations between Singapore and other countries. In answering Ms QUAT's question, I clearly said that other than understanding the experience and the effectiveness of enacting such legislation in Singapore, we also hope that LRC will also conduct a comprehensive study. In respect of this, the Government holds an open and proactive attitude.

MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): President, fake news is already scary, but it is even more scary for news articles to reveal only partial facts, seeking to mislead the public into believing that they are given the entire facts. For example, according to a piece of news article, in response to allegations that someone had put fake blood paint on an injured person, some online sources made the specious claim that the blood paint was in fact a medication known as Alkanet Balm. Even if there is a 1 to 10 000 chance, certain matters would be twisted and blown up.

Besides, I would like to ask the SAR Government a question on the offence of access to computer with dishonest intent. Nowadays, a large amount of information is disseminated through our mobile phones via such apps as Telegram, Instagram, Facebook, and also WhatsApp and WeChat, and such information is resent repeatedly. Many of the messages circulated contain hostile remarks against the Police, inciting others to commit crimes. Someone has said earlier that the offence of access to computer with dishonest intent does not apply to personal computers. At present, the use of mobile phones is not subject to a real-name registration system and many people use prepaid SIM cards. I have asked many government officials who have told me that messages disseminated through prepaid SIM cards are in fact untraceable. Some people thus use these devices to incite others to commit crimes. The Secretary said that crimes committed online …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HO, please raise your supplementary question directly.

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MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): I know. I will ask a very brief question, which will take only 10 to 15 seconds. I would like to ask the Secretary: As those who commit such acts cannot be traced but publishing such hate speech online can constitute a crime in the real world, how does he treat the offence of access to computer with dishonest intent if the authorities are unable to catch the offenders? Will he consider introducing the real-name registration system for the use of mobile phones? President, the public have many ideas and they think such measures are necessary.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, I thank the Member for putting forward the proposals in the supplementary question for consideration by the Government. Any proposals that can help combat online crimes to maintain law and order in Hong Kong and safeguard everyone's personal safety are appreciated.

As regards the study on the legislation about access to computer with dishonest intent, according to the judgment of the Court of Final Appeal, if a case is concerned with a certain illegal act committed by means of a personal mobile phone, in order to prosecute a certain person, there must be evidence proving that the person has committed the illegal act concerned. A law enforcement officer cannot prosecute someone merely because he has used the mobile phone to publish illegal information. In respect of the law reform in this respect, the Security Bureau has conducted studies on, for example, the offence of voyeurism, and LRC has also put forward recommendations. I have accepted such recommendations, and planned to commence the consultation on the offence of voyeurism in this legislative session. It is hoped that the Legislative Council will enact new legislation to combat this kind of offence. Moreover, as regards others such as … of course, in the course of legislation, apart from the means of enforcement currently available, we will also consider other means that can help the Police to combat crimes. For example, we hope that through enhancing our work in gathering intelligence, or application for injunctions just mentioned, relevant crimes could be combated more effectively.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fifth question.

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Political disputes and violence in schools

5. MR CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported that earlier on, some secondary school students with different political views had confrontations in a school, subsequently dozens of persons dressed in black arrived there to express support for one of the parties and they surrounded the school and yelled; they even forced their way into the school and drew graffiti everywhere and vandalized the facilities. Furthermore, some students of tertiary institutions detained, attacked and insulted a lecturer who held different political views, hurled abuse at and surrounded the presidents of the institutions concerned, stormed the presidents' offices, as well as caused widespread destructions and drew graffiti on campus. Some members of the public have expressed concern about political disputes and violence permeating schools. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether the Education Bureau ("EDB") has any immediate measures to stop violence from permeating schools and from being rationalized, and whether EDB has reviewed the guidelines on how schools should handle the entry of police officers into campus for law enforcement; if so, of the details; if not, whether EDB will immediately draw up such measures and review the guidelines;

(2) as some teaching staff members have relayed that recently, some students and alumni holding different political views have made public on the Internet their personal information, as well as surrounded and even attacked them, and yet the schools concerned, which sought to settling the matter to avoid trouble, have adopted a tolerant attitude towards the students involved, whether EDB will offer assistance to the teaching staff members who have been bullied for holding different political views, so as to safeguard their personal safety and rights; and

(3) as it has been reported that some secondary school teachers instigated students to boycott classes, sing songs that carry ideas of advocating the independence of Hong Kong, participate in activities to form human chains and even take to the street to demonstrate, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1081

whether EDB will initiate an investigation to see if such teachers have violated the professional codes of conduct, and solemnly hold them responsible?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, disputes in society in recent months have brought pressure on the academia. Confrontations have even happened in some post-secondary institutions and schools. The Education Bureau does not accept any verbal or physical violence, and calls upon all in society to oppose all violent acts that disrupt the normal operations of schools as well as teaching and research activities so that our schools (including post-secondary institutions) can provide a safe and harmonious teaching and learning environment that puts students at ease when learning, whilst all educators must uphold professional ethics.

Hong Kong is a diversified society, and it is normal for different people to hold different views on social issues. However, anyone expressing his/her views must do so in a rational, peaceful and lawful manner, with mutual respect for others' rights. Freedom of speech or academic freedom must not be used as a disguise or an excuse for advocating improper speech or behaviour. The community holds very high expectations for post-secondary students in particular.

Post-secondary institutions are independent and autonomous organizations. They are responsible for handling matters taking place on campus, including protests and confrontations. According to the institutions, since the commencement of the academic year in September, classes and on-campus activities have proceeded largely normally, and teaching and research activities as well as the overall operations have not been affected too significantly. There were confrontations among some students possibly because of different backgrounds and political stances. A small number of students even organized rallies, publicized protest actions, and even engaged in graffiti and vandalism on campus. The Chairmen of the Councils of the eight publicly-funded universities issued a joint statement on 20 October, pointing out that the universities should cherish a diversity of views and promote rational discussion, rather than being drawn into supporting any particular political position. The statement also opposed any form of violent conduct and criminal acts, including defacing and damaging university property, and stressed that university staff and students were responsible for the actions they take, and that the universities had standing mechanisms and procedures to deal with those who violated the laws or 1082 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 university regulations. The Education Bureau considers that institutions should uphold the principles in the statement, handle the views of various stakeholders appropriately, and handle the conduct issues of students and staff members in accordance with the standing mechanisms.

For secondary schools, there are also students who wish to express their views, some of whom demanded boycotting classes and some participated in the forming of human chains near schools. Schools have generally been able to handle the situation properly, and help the students concerned to improve their behaviour and help them build up positive values according to the established school-based discipline and counselling mechanism.

Our reply to the question raised by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-kwan is as follows:

(1) The Education Bureau has issued guidelines to all kindergartens, primary, secondary and special schools in late August, providing some basic principles and reference materials for them to formulate their school-based arrangements and specific measures, taking into account their actual circumstances, to meet various challenges arising from the social events. Among others, the guidelines reminded schools again that they should draw up contingency plans in advance, conduct periodic review and update the plans from time to time, to meet possible situations. Besides, the School Administration Guide issued by the Education Bureau specified that, in the event of school crises (including violent incidents), schools should put the safety of all staff and students at top priority and take appropriate actions. When the situation warrants immediate support, schools should dial 999 promptly for assistance. Besides, the Police School Liaison Officers have all along maintained close liaison with schools and have provided them with the necessary assistance.

The post-secondary institutions are generally responsible for their security matters. Each institution has its own internal mechanism, rules and procedures to deal with ad hoc incidents that occur on campus, including seeking assistance from law enforcement agencies, depending on the actual needs. In general, it is only upon receipt of requests from the institutions concerned for assistance in handling incidents relating to public safety and public order, and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1083

after liaising with the institutions concerned that the Police will enter the campus to render assistance. Section 50(3) of the Police Force Ordinance also provides that if any police officer has reason to believe that any person to be arrested has entered into or is in any place, the person residing in or in charge of such place shall allow that police officer free ingress thereto and afford all reasonable facilities for the police officer's search therein. Regarding a recent incident of a post-secondary institution of the Vocational Training Council being vandalized, I understand that the relevant institution has reported the case to the Police. The Education Bureau has all along maintained contact with the post-secondary institutions over various issues to understand the on-campus situation and offer support and advice as and when necessary. In the light of the recent tense atmosphere in society, the Education Bureau reminded the institutions before the start of the academic year to make appropriate arrangements, with a view to coping with possible confrontations on campus and ensuring a safe learning environment for all members of the institutions.

(2) As regards the concern about staff members being bullied, we reiterate that no one should treat others with hostility or violence because of differences in stances or political views. For secondary schools, we have not received any complaints about personal information of staff being disclosed online, or staff being bullied or attacked. If such cases arise, they should inform their schools and report to the Police. The Education Bureau will maintain close contacts with schools and offer assistance as necessary.

Various post-secondary institutions are responsible for dealing with student affairs properly and protect the safety of their staff members on campus. The Education Bureau has suggested that the institutions reiterate through faculties, halls, etc. the need to respect different views of people and refrain from propagating messages about bullying or isolating others. The institutions should provide appropriate and timely assistance in cases where staff members have been bullied or isolated. Furthermore, the institutions will handle the conduct issues of students and staff members in accordance with the established mechanism after considering all the relevant factors including the related judicial procedures or court decisions.

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(3) Schools are places for students to learn. All parties concerned should work together to ensure that students can learn normally and grow healthily in a safe, stable and peaceful environment. No one should use schools as the venue for expressing their political demands, not to mention inciting immature students to indicate their stance on controversial or evolving political issues or even take part in unlawful activities. Teachers serve as students' role models through teaching by words and examples. Their words and actions must be in compliance with the professional conduct and meet the general moral expectations from the public. Teachers must not incite students to express their views through class boycott, forming human chains, singing inappropriate songs, etc. The Education Bureau handles any suspected case of professional misconduct from the perspective of education professionalism and in accordance with the Education Ordinance. Full consideration will be given to the facts and circumstances of every case before a decision is made. If a teacher is found to have committed a serious offence or an act of misconduct, this Bureau will review his professional conduct based on the information available and take necessary follow up action. For serious cases, the registration of the teacher concerned may be cancelled.

MR CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary pointed out at the beginning of the main reply that "confrontations have even happened in some post-secondary institutions and schools". In fact, as we have seen, the incidents were not "confrontations". Rather, more post-secondary institutions were being "stormed". Some students requested the institutions to indicate support for their actions outside the institutions, and they also requested the institutions to join them in condemning the Police. Otherwise, they did not allow the institution heads to leave. They also asked teachers and students with different political views to remain silent. These are "storming" incidents, not confrontations. The Secretary stated in the main reply that post-secondary institutions are independent and autonomous organizations and they are responsible for handling all matters that take place on campus. The Councils of universities even issued a joint statement, calling on university staff and students not to take part in unlawful activities. However, the statement so issued was LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1085 only a bureaucratic statement. As I have just said, what we have seen is that the students did not allow the heads of their institutions to leave unless they supported their actions …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG, please raise your supplementary question directly.

MR CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is: How can the institutions rely on its autonomy to protect the rights and interests as well as the personal safety of teachers and students with different political views when even the heads of institutions could not protect their own safety on campus?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, Members may have seen on television or the Internet that many incidents have happened in different institutions. Some incidents were outrageous. I personally think that it is totally inappropriate to vandalize the facilities in the institutions, or to make inappropriate comments and insulting remarks on the heads or other teaching staff of the institutions. However, as to how to teach their students, how to ensure a tranquil teaching environment and how to maintain communication with the institutions and other stakeholders to facilitate the effective operation of the institutions as usual, these are indeed the responsibilities of the institutions as independent and autonomous organizations. I have also talked with university heads, and I believe they are trying their best to deal with the relations among students and the relations between the institutions and the students, and to explain to the students. Of course, no one would want to see any confrontations or storming incidents as Mr CHEUNG has just mentioned. In fact, many university heads can actually explain the incidents to their students on other occasions and conduct rational discussions.

Of course, some people may have taken excessively radical actions in front of the camera for the purpose of standing out. However, first, we must trust the institutions and trust that institution heads are able to handle the incidents. Second, we believe that most students are rational and are willing to continue to 1086 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 pursue academic progress. We can give the institutions more room to handle the issues that they are facing. The problems that we are so worried about can be solved.

MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): President, about a year ago, I raised an oral question on 31 October last year, asking the Secretary what measures were in place to address the problem of escalating violence in schools.

President, listening to the Secretary's reply, I got the impression that he was going to sit back and do nothing, leaving everything to the institutions. However, should he provide assistance or issue guidelines on the institutions' handling of certain issues? If the institutions fail to handle the issues satisfactorily, the Secretary cannot escape his responsibility.

Therefore, my question is: Regarding the violent incidents that had occurred in the past or the institutions' improper handling of such incidents, has the Secretary for Education taken follow-up actions, issued instructions, provided guidance or explored every remedial means, so that the campus will truly be a place for education?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, concerning our relationship with the post-secondary sector and post-secondary institutions, we must respect that they are independent and autonomous organizations. They can exercise administrative powers independently and they enjoy academic freedom.

For a certain period of time in the past, we communicated with the heads of the eight institutions or the Chairmen of their Councils, and we discussed certain issues. For example, we hope that the institutions will have a peaceful environment, try their best to encourage students to conduct rational discussions and refrain from taking excessively radical actions or engage in mutual attacks. As regards this principle, there are no objections and it is agreed that the institutions should make greater efforts.

As to how an incident should be handled after it has taken place, in fact, every incident is different from one another, and the institutions concerned should make decisions according to the circumstances of individual institutions, past LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1087 practices and the reasons behind such incidents. While such storming incidents are considered to be frequently occurring within institutions recently, the entire society is suffering from such incidents. When the phenomenon is almost territory-wide, it is in fact inevitable that more confrontations or storming incidents have been occurring in institutions.

Yet, apart from pinpointing the institutions, I think the community should express their views on these incidents, clearly stating the view that they do not want to see more violent incidents, and bringing the message to all institutions. Let us join hands to better tackle the related incidents.

MR CHAN CHUN-YING (in Cantonese): President, in addition to expressing concern for the actions of students in schools, the Education Bureau should also express concern on whether the students will contravene the law inadvertently outside campus. In the social movement in the past five months, 3 300 people have been arrested as at the end of October and the percentage of students under 16 in the total number of arrestees is not low. The situation is worrying and distressing.

In addition to the basic principles and guidelines issued in late August as the Secretary has mentioned in the main reply, has the Education Bureau taken any practical actions? For example, the Bureau may urge or advise students not to participate in unlawful assemblies, explain to them that radical elements may commit arson or throw petrol bombs at such assemblies and they may be hurt, tell them that their future will be ruined if they are charged with rioting offences.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, we have communicated with the heads of primary and secondary schools, and the major messages are: First, we hope that they will maintain a peaceful and orderly learning environment in schools so that students can learn in a tranquil environment; second, we hope that they will take care of students' emotions and help them calm down; third, I hope that schools will try to advise students not to participate in unlawful assemblies. If they participate in social activities, they should mind their own safety, refrain from endangering the safety of others and refrain from violating the law.

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When the Government made the Prohibition on Face Covering Regulation in October, we wrote to all schools on that day, hoping that they would immediately inform students and parents that the Prohibition on Face Covering Regulation would take effect at midnight. We also asked schools to remind students that they should try to avoid wearing face masks when they go outside so as not to contravene the law inadvertently. These are what we have done to help schools in the light of the actual circumstances.

MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, I believe members of the public are very much concerned about the problems that emerged in schools in the past few months. Parents, in particular, are much concerned as they hope that their children will be properly protected in school. I believe that the parents of students in the higher education sector share the same demand.

In answering the supplementary questions raised by other Members, the Secretary has repeatedly mentioned that it is up to the institutions to make the decisions, that the institutions enjoy autonomy, and that the institutions should endeavour to protect their students. What else can the Bureau or the Government do? Are we going to rely on the institutions alone as was the case in the past? Nevertheless, at present, there are many situations and problems that have gone beyond the scope that can be handled by the institutions. Given that violent incidents or even political incidents are permeating institutions, I would like to ask the Bureau: What countermeasures does the Bureau have, apart from asking the institutions to deal with such issues by themselves?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): President, Members must understand that the day-to-day operation of post-secondary institutions is the responsibility of the institutions. In answering the supplementary questions raised by other Members, I have just mentioned that we have expressed our expectations of what should be done on campus when we communicated with the institutions. For example, before the start of the academic year, we met with heads of institutions in August, and we also met with the Chairmen of various Councils in early September. It was mentioned that particular attention should be paid to students' emotions, and special attention should be paid to students of different backgrounds in student hostels or the institutions. For instance, whether there will be serious conflicts between the views of students from other places (including Mainland students) and those of local students on certain LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1089 matters, and how these issues should be solved. I have also discussed with them how the issues should be handled if the students state their demand to boycott classes or display posters within the institutions to express their opinions. We have had discussions with them and we have reached a consensus on some basic principles.

As for how to tackle the specific problems, such as the locations and contents of posters to be displayed within institutions, such issues should be handled by institutions after discussion with students. These are some of the issues that should be handled by institutions. Even if we want to do something, we should do so through institutions. Should staff of the Education Bureau enter the institutions to perform such work? This is impracticable. Hence, we have not shirked our responsibilities onto schools or institutions. We cooperate with one another and work within our own purviews, in the hope that the impacts of the social movement on schools could be minimized.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last oral question.

Assisting arts groups affected by demonstrations

6. MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, the Performing Industry Association and quite a number of arts groups have relayed to me that in recent months, a number of cultural and arts activities have been cancelled or rescheduled due to demonstrations involving violence. The reasons for the arts groups to make such decisions include early closure of venues under the Leisure and Cultural Services Department ("LCSD") and traffic disruption. The arts groups concerned not only have suffered loss of box office income, but also have to deploy manpower and financial resources to handle follow-up work such as ticket refund. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether it knows, since June this year, the number of cultural and arts activities that were cancelled or rescheduled due to demonstrations involving violence; whether LCSD has provided assistance to the affected arts groups, such as priority allocation of venues and waiver of venue hire charges; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;

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(2) given that LCSD has adopted different practices for venues in the same district (i.e. some venues were closed early while the others stayed open), and that there were still activities going on in some venues which had been closed early, whether LCSD has formulated a policy on early closure of venues; if so, of the details (including the factors to be considered and their weightings), and whether LCSD will make public such policy; if LCSD has not formulated such policy, the reasons for that; and

(3) whether it will introduce measures to assist the cultural and arts sector in tackling financial difficulties; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, my reply to Mr MA's main question is as follows:

(1) Of the cultural and arts activities held from June to 3 November in performance venues under the Leisure and Cultural Services Department ("LCSD"), about 84 activities were cancelled, 19 activities were rescheduled due to closure of venues, and 79 activities were cancelled or rescheduled of the organizers' own accord. For activities which were cancelled due to closure of performance venues, LCSD will arrange the affected arts groups to hold the events or activities on other dates with its best endeavours, and allow hire charges paid to be transferred for the rescheduled dates. If rescheduling is impossible due to the schedule of the affected arts groups or unavailability of venues, LCSD will arrange for refund of hire charges and related fees paid. LCSD will announce the rescheduling or cancellation of events and refund arrangements on the web pages of the respective venues to help organizers to disseminate relevant information to the public.

(2) LCSD will, as far as possible, adhere to the principle of maintaining normal service for venue users and the premise of addressing the safety of users and staff when considering whether a venue should be closed. Factors to be considered include public safety assessment LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1091

by the Police, public transportation on the event date and the actual environment of the venue concerned. LCSD will also make reference to the arrangement of government departments and other organizations in the vicinity, as well as the relevant arrangement of the organizer in relation to the event concerned or the rental period (such as whether open activities or non-open rehearsals, installation or dismantling of the stage are arranged during the rental period, the number and types of participants, whether the activities can be postponed or rerun, and so on). Individual venues have relevant contingency guidelines and plans. Venue staff will liaise closely with the organizers to make timely decisions and inform the public as soon as possible through press releases and web pages.

(3) The current-term Government attaches great importance to culture and arts. In the past two years, the Government has increased the subvention for the Hong Kong Arts Development Council, nine major performing arts groups, Hong Kong Arts Festival Society and LCSD's Venue Partners by a total of $125 million. In response to the increasingly challenging economic environment, the Financial Secretary has earlier announced a new round of relief measures. One of the measures is to provide hirers of facilities of civic centres managed by LCSD with a 50% reduction of hire charges for a period of six months from 1 October 2019 to 31 March 2020 to support artists and cultural organizations to hold various cultural and arts activities continuously. The concession applies to 146 facilities, including performance venues, rehearsal rooms, lecture theatres and exhibition halls. Hirers paying normal rates and concessionary rates (e.g. non-profit-making organizations) are eligible for the concession. The beneficiaries include artists and cultural organizations of various scales.

Furthermore, as the current situation brings pressure to the operation of art groups, the Government will also introduce one-off relaxation to the matching parameters of this year's Art Development Matching Grants Scheme ("the Matching Grants Scheme"), including the increase of matching ratio for eligible arts groups and their respective matching grant ceiling. It is hoped that such relaxation 1092 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

will help to alleviate the pressure of art groups in soliciting sufficient donations or sponsorships and minimize their losses as a result of reduced donations or sponsorships and box office income. Arts groups of various scales will benefit from this measure.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, in part (1) of the main reply, the Secretary said that 19 activities were rescheduled due to closure of venues, and another 79 activities were cancelled or rescheduled of the organizers' own accord. The Government has allowed activities which had been cancelled due to closure of venues to be rescheduled, and the hire charges paid to be transferred to rescheduled events. Nevertheless, the authorities have failed to give an account of the arrangements for activities which were cancelled or rescheduled of the organizers' own accord.

Furthermore, the Secretary mentioned in part (3) of the main reply that the Government had implemented measure to reduce hire charges from 1 October 2019 to 31 March 2020 and would assist arts groups under this year's Matching Grants Scheme. However, in fact, only eligible arts groups are given relaxation under the Matching Grants Scheme.

The Government has not answered how the authorities would assist affected arts groups after the activities originally scheduled to be held within the four months between June and September had been cancelled of the organizers' own accord, and whether the Matching Grants Scheme would provide any assistance to these arts groups. Will the Government meet with these arts groups to gain an understanding of their situation in order to assist them by putting forward specific and feasible measures?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, events cancelled or rescheduled within six months starting from 1 October will have half of the hire charges waived as compensation.

In response to Mr MA's second question, the arts groups affected from June to September are not eligible because the new measure was yet to be implemented during this period. Nevertheless, as I said in the main reply, the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1093 matching ratio and respective matching ceiling under the Matching Grants Scheme will be increased in future in the light of the prevailing situation and actual development of arts groups, with a view to enabling arts groups to solicit commercial sponsorships and other donations. Furthermore, the Government will increase their matching grants. Arts groups of smaller scale will be assigned a proportionally higher matching ratio so as to facilitate their survival and development.

MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, overseas performing groups have successively cancelled their performances in Hong Kong in recent months due to worries about the lack of protection for their safety, the uncertainty of Hong Kong's social situation, insurance issues, etc. Given that the social unrest may continue and thus result in long-term instability in Hong Kong, will LCSD, in the coming year, put in place any specific measures to attract overseas and Mainland groups to stage performances in Hong Kong, such as incorporating safeguarding measures or insurance terms in the invitation process?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, Mr LIAO's supplementary question is very appropriate and pertinent. We welcome local arts groups taking part in exchanges overseas, as well as overseas arts groups staging performances in Hong Kong. Throughout the liaison process, we will endeavour to communicate with the arts groups concerned to inform them of Hong Kong's actual situation. On the other hand, the authorities will provide these groups with sufficient assistance after their arrival in Hong Kong.

Let me cite one example. The Hong Kong Museum of History successfully launched a three-month special exhibition on "Ancient Artefacts of Afghanistan" today. Throughout the exhibition, we will strive to assist the units concerned in holding exhibitions and performances in Hong Kong.

The new measure of hire charge reduction for a six-month period from 1 October 2019 to 31 March 2020 I mentioned just now applies to local and overseas arts groups.

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Martin LIAO, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, I have asked the Secretary in the last part of my supplementary question whether any safeguarding measures or insurance terms will be incorporated in the process of inviting overseas groups to stage performances in Hong Kong. The Secretary has not answered my question.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, as an established practice, we will discuss the relevant insurance terms with arts groups.

MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): Apart from Hong Kong people, quite a number of overseas and Mainland tourists are interested in taking part in various cultural and arts activities held by LCSD. Recently, many of these activities were cancelled at short notice. This has significantly affected tourists because they had to book transport and arrange accommodation before coming to Hong Kong. If these activities are cancelled at short notice, they will suffer more losses compared with the local people.

May I ask the Secretary: Have you received any complaints from overseas visitors about cancellation of events at short notice in recent months? Furthermore, while the Secretary said just now that the public would be informed through press releases and web pages, tourists may not have access to such information. Has the Government considered other more effective ways to give advance notice to overseas or Mainland tourists who are preparing to come to Hong Kong? In doing so, we may help tourists reduce the loss that may be incurred as they will be spared the predicament of being informed of the cancellation of the events only after having arrived in Hong Kong.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1095

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, as a normal practice, any information about early closure of LCSD venues will be broadcast through the media as soon as possible, and the information about the relevant time, venues, etc. will also be uploaded to the LCSD website. Of course, during the current extraordinary times, I believe that some arts groups will use other means, such as their websites, to provide an update on the latest situation. I hope that these channels will give tourists from different places access to the latest situation.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YIU Si-wing, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): I asked the Secretary just now if he had received any complaints from overseas tourists about the cancellation of events. The Secretary has not answered my question.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, I do not have the relevant information on hand. I could provide Mr YIU with the information after the meeting. (Appendix I)

MR CHAN CHUN-YING (in Cantonese): President, a number of arts groups have relayed to me that they had been confused by the arrangements for the closure of venues, citing an occasion when one venue was closed while another venue remained open in the same district. Although the decisions of early closure of venues, as suggested by the Secretary, would be publicized through various channels, they were extremely hasty as far as time is concerned.

The Secretary pointed out in the main reply that decisions to close venues would be made based on the public safety assessment by the Police, public transportation on the event date, the actual environment of the venue concerned, 1096 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 etc., but these are rather general criteria. Can the Secretary put forward more specific, transparent and open criteria so that venue hirers may make an early assessment as to whether the venues concerned would be affected and closed? In addition, can the authorities inform the public in advance by, for example, pledging to give a notice a few days before the closure, instead of saying vaguely that it will inform the public as soon as possible?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, we will definitely notify the arts groups and users concerned as soon as possible should we be informed in advance that exceptional circumstances will arise. However, Mr CHAN should also understand that recent happenings in our community are often so unpredictable that we cannot even predict what will happen one hour from now. As such, the venue managers in various districts will keep a close watch on the recent developments, as well as the Police's assessment of the surrounding environment and traffic conditions. They will also discuss with the arts groups concerned. I appeal for understanding from Members. In fact, frontline managers may not have a set of objective indicators in making decisions. After taking various factors into account in a holistic manner, if they consider that the circumstances would jeopardize the safety of the venue, staff, arts groups or audience, they will definitely consult their supervisors about the closure of venues. If any inconvenience is caused, I hope that members of the public will understand.

IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, thanks to the efforts over the years, Hong Kong's status in the field of culture and the arts has risen in the region. It is precisely for this reason that Hong Kong is currently committed to the construction and development of the West Kowloon Cultural District. I therefore find this question very appropriate and pertinent.

The recent months-long social turmoil has indeed greatly affected ordinary cultural and arts activities. Nevertheless, LCSD is not only responsible for cultural and arts activities, and sports activities are in fact an integral part as well. Hong Kong has hosted some outstanding international sports events, such as marathons and cycling competitions. The current difficulty is that, since the preparation for activities takes time, organizers are at a loss under the current LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1097 situation. Does the Bureau have any instruction, advice or suggestion for the overseas or local organizers of large-scale sports events with which LCSD has all along been responsible for liaising, so that Hong Kong would not lose its status in the fields of culture, sports and the arts as a result of the social turmoil?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This supplementary question is not exactly related to the subject matter of the main question. However, Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, I would be happy to respond. Quite a number of people have expressed concerns about various large-scale cultural and arts performances and sports events. While some of these events have been cancelled, some others will be held as scheduled. For example, the 2019 World Rowing Coastal Championships was held at the Victoria Harbour for the first time during the last weekend. None of the 500 participants was absent. They came to Hong Kong and they liked Hong Kong a lot. A world-class badminton competition will also be held in future. Whether it be cultural, arts or sports events, we hope to attract as many organizers from around the world as possible to Hong Kong, so that the public will continue to enjoy these kinds of competitions and events.

MR SHIU KA-CHUN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not mentioned in his main reply any relief measures for arts groups affected before 1 October. In addition, what is the mechanism for the closure of venues? I hope to draw the Secretary's attention to the fact that arts groups affected before 1 October had actually suffered even more losses. What assistance will the authorities offer to them in respect of the manpower resources that they have deployed and the box office income foregone?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, Mr SHIU should have noticed in my main reply my reference to the series of relief measures announced by the Financial Secretary under the "supporting enterprises, safeguarding jobs" initiative, including measures in the field of culture and the 1098 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 arts, launched on 1 October. Events scheduled before this date are supposedly not covered by these measures, given that a starting date has already been determined for the implementation of these measures. That being said, as I mentioned in my replies to other Members just now, the Government has strengthened support for arts groups and introduced a relaxation to the matching parameters this year, whereby arts groups of smaller scale will be assigned a proportionally higher matching ratio. It is hoped that these relief measures will not only enable them to cope with the current difficulty, but will foster their survival and development in future. In line with our established practice, we hope that we will continue to assist arts groups.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SHIU Ka-chun, which part of your supplementary question has not been answered?

MR SHIU KA-CHUN (in Cantonese): What is the mechanism for the closure of venues?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): I could not hear clearly what mechanism Mr SHIU was asking about.

MR SHIU KA-CHUN (in Cantonese): The mechanism for the closure of venues. How would the authorities arrive at a decision to close venues? They easily make the decision to close venues.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add regarding the mechanism for the closure of venues?

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1099

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): The mechanism for the closure of venues. As I pointed out just now, under the current mechanism, frontline managers would handle the situation after taking various factors into account in a holistic manner.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): In fact, one of the causes of the aforesaid problems is that some Members are unwilling to dissociate themselves from violence; and their role as instigators has resulted in the current ill consequence. Putting this aside though, my supplementary question is: Given that while some arts groups are receiving subvention from LCSD, many users of these venues come from our cultural and creative industries, who are likewise suffering from the large-scale impact, has the Government considered providing support for the cultural and creative industries in other aspects? For example, apart from subsidizing users of LCSD venues, the Government may consider subsidizing users of the West Kowloon Cultural District, the Hong Kong Arts Centre, venues of various academic institutions, the Hong Kong Convention and Exhibition Centre, the Kowloonbay International Trade & Exhibition Centre, the Sunbeam Theatre, etc. In fact, many cultural and arts groups and establishments in the creative industry have held events at the aforesaid venues and they have been affected as well. Will the Government consider expanding the scope of the relief measures to provide more support for other arts groups or establishments in the cultural and creative industries, thereby enabling them to play a part in improving the overall social atmosphere?

SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, this round of relief measures applies to government venues only. The non-government venues mentioned by Mr MA just now have not been considered in this round of relief measures. Of course, we may seek Mr MA's views on other ways to provide assistance in future.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Oral questions end here.

1100 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Impacts caused by demonstrations

7. MR KENNETH LAU (in Chinese): President, since June this year, scenes of members of the public taking to the street to demonstrate have been seen time and again. During the demonstrations, some demonstrators resorted to violent and illegal acts, including storming and forcing their way into the Legislative Council Complex, laying siege to government structures (including the Police Headquarters, police stations and the Revenue Tower), setting fire on streets and at entrances/exits of MTR stations, hurling petrol bombs at police officers, blocking roads, and vandalizing public facilities such as government structures and traffic lights. Some members of the public are concerned that such acts have seriously breached public peace and jeopardized public safety. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether it has compiled statistics on, since June this year,

(i) the number of MTR stations in which the facilities were damaged, as well as the repair or reprovisioning cost of each type of facilities;

(ii) the quantity of on-street facilities (including traffic lights, street lamps, mills barriers, water barriers, pavement railings and rubbish bins) that were damaged or stolen, as well as the repair or reprovisioning cost of each type of facilities;

(iii) the number of occasions on which the cultural and recreational facilities under the Leisure and Cultural Services Department were suspended from service or closed as a result of demonstrations, as well as the number of person-times affected; and

(iv) the franchised bus, green minibus and tram services which were diverted or suspended as a result of demonstrations, together with a breakdown by route of the number of person-times affected; and

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1101

(2) of the measures in place to expeditiously restore social order and public peace to enable members of the public to resume a normal life?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, since June, there have been continued public order events including protests and rallies in Hong Kong, in which many of them ended up in violence. Rioters vandalized public facilities, including MTR stations, Light Rail ("LR") stations and traffic lights, in various districts. The illegal blocking of roads in various districts also seriously affected public transport services and government services. Rioters even set fire wantonly, damaged shops and hurled petrol bombs, posing serious threats to people's lives and properties. After consulting the relevant departments, our reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:

(1) (i) As for the situation on the recent large-scale damages on railway station facilities, up till 29 October, among 93 MTR stations and 68 LR stations, there were accumulatively 85 MTR stations and 60 LR stations reported damaged. A large number of stations facilities were vandalized, including about 1 600 times on exit/entry gates; 960 times on ticket-issuing machines, Octopus add-value machines and enquiry machines, facilities in customer service centres; 915 times on LR Octopus fare processors; 1 100 times on CCTV cameras; 75 times on escalators; about 50 times on elevators; about 1 060 times on glass panel walls; as well as 130 times on roller shutters at station entrances or exits. The maintenance team of the MTR Corporation Limited is making every effort to repair the damaged station facilities. Yet, due to serious and repeated damages on station facilities, the maintenance team has worked overnight to repair after service hours. There are still a lot of facilities to be repaired in various stations. The cost of repair or replacement will be enormous, with the actual figures under estimation and verification.

(ii) From June till the end of October, there were 460 sets of traffic lights being vandalized or tampered about 850 times, 40 street lamps were damaged, 45 600 m of railings along walkways were removed and about 2 900 sq m of paving 1102 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

blocks on footpaths were removed. There were about 670 litter containers from the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department ("FEHD") found damaged. Highways Department ("HyD") has also found over 900 temporary plastic barriers and 1 500 water-filled barriers missing. During this period, HyD incurred over $10 million in the maintenance and replacement work. FEHD had incurred about $560,000 to reinstall the litter containers.

(iii) From June to date, leisure venues of the Leisure and Cultural Services Department ("LCSD"), including public swimming pools, sports centres, sports grounds, parks, etc., have been affected by processions and protests, and were temporarily closed on more than 1 900 occasions. Cultural venues of LCSD, including performance venues, museums, libraries, etc., were temporarily closed on more than 500 occasions in light of the circumstances and safety concern. As members of the public were not required to purchase tickets or register prior to using some of the facilities and venues, LCSD is unable to provide the number of users being affected.

(iv) Up till the end of October, there were over 300 franchised bus routes, over 300 green minibuses routes and all tram routes being affected that required truncation or diversion. Statistics on the number of users being affected in individual items are not available. However, according to Transport Department's Monthly Traffic and Transport Digest, the average daily passenger journeys of franchised bus routes, green minibuses routes and tram routes have dropped to 3 900 000, 1 490 000 and 127 000 in August 2019 respectively, comparing to 4 180 000, 1 510 000 and 158 000 in May 2019, indicating a drop of 6.6%, 1.5% and 19.3% respectively.

(2) We are making efforts in implementing the "four actions" announced by the Chief Executive in early September, with view to providing the driving force for the community to move forward, and taking an important step from getting out of the impasse:

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1103

Firstly, the Secretary for Security moved a motion according to the Rules of Procedure of the Legislative Council to withdraw the amendment bill on the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance on 23 October, officially putting a full stop on the bill.

Secondly, the Government will fully support the work of the Independent Police Complaints Council ("IPCC") and will provide sufficient resources to the IPCC secretariat for its work. IPCC plans to publish its first phase report regarding the large-scale public order events by end this year. The Government will carefully study and follow up the recommendations made in IPCC's reports.

Thirdly, the Chief Executive and Principal Officials will reach out to the community to start a direct dialogue from September. People from all walks of life are invited to provide views on solutions through this dialogue platform. The first Community Dialogue session was held on 26 September at the Queen Elizabeth Stadium in Wan Chai.

Fourthly, the Chief Executive will invite community leaders, professionals and academics to independently examine and review society's deep-seated problems and to advise the Government on finding solutions.

Law enforcement actions taken at the airport and on Lantau Island

8. MR DENNIS KWOK (in Chinese): President, between July and September this year, quite a number of members of the public went, in response to calls on the Internet, to the Hong Kong International Airport ("HKIA") and its neighbouring areas to stage demonstrations. At the request of the Airport Authority Hong Kong, the court granted an interim injunction order on 13 August which restrained any person from unlawfully and wilfully obstructing or interfering with the proper use of HKIA, and up to the present, the injunction order still remains in force. Regarding the law enforcement actions taken by the Police against the demonstrations staged at HKIA and its neighbouring areas, will the Government inform this Council:

1104 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

(1) of the respective numbers of persons arrested (i) at HKIA and (ii) in other places on Lantau Island on (a) 26 July, (b) 9 August, (c) 10 August, (d) 11 August, (e) 12 August, (f) 13 August, (g) 1 September, (h) 2 September, (i) 7 September and (j) 8 September, with a breakdown by gender and the age group to which they belonged (set out in tables of the same format as Table 1);

Table 1 Gender Date Age group Total Male Female Below 14 14 to 16 17 to 25 (a) 26 to 40 41 to 60 61 to 65 Above 65 … (j)

(2) in respect of the persons arrested respectively (a) at HKIA and (b) in other places on Lantau Island as mentioned in (1), of a breakdown of their numbers by the offences involved (i.e. (i) riot, (ii) unlawful assembly, (iii) assaulting police officer, (iv) loitering, (v) forcible entry, (vi) carrying offensive weapons at public meetings and processions, (vii) fighting in public, (viii) wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm and (ix) others) as well as by gender and the age group to which they belonged (set out in tables of the same format as Table 2); and

Table 2 Gender Offence Age group Total Male Female Below 14 14 to 16 17 to 25 (i) 26 to 40 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1105

Gender Offence Age group Total Male Female 41 to 60 61 to 65 Above 65 … (ix)

(3) of the (i) locations, (ii) floor areas and (iii) capacities in respect of the facilities in (a) the Airport District police station, (b) other places inside HKIA and (c) other places on Lantau Island which can be used for detaining arrested persons, as well as the respective numbers and floor areas of the rooms available in such facilities for the arrested persons to meet with their lawyers?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, the Hong Kong International Airport ("HKIA") is an important international aviation hub and one of the busiest cargo and passenger airports in the world. While members of the public have the right to peaceful expression, they must obey the law. Regrettably, some protesters aimed at paralysing airport operations, affecting the journey of many visitors and negatively impacted on Hong Kong's economy. Some protesters even resorted to violence, including besieging and beating up visitors, assaulting police officers as well as sabotaging properties in the airport area. These acts have crossed far beyond the line of peaceful and rational assembly and a civilized society, and have also seriously affected Hong Kong's favourable image as a world city and hospitable city.

From July to September this year, some members of the public, in response to appeals in the Internet, took part in protests at HKIA and its vicinity. On 12 August, a large number of protesters obstructed the airport, seriously disrupting its operations. On 13 August, some protesters engaged in violent acts. In addition to severely inhibiting visitors' free entry and exit and paralysing airport operations, some rioters took the law into their own hands by beating up some visitors and even unlawfully detained them, and assaulted police officers.

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To resume the normal operation of the airport, and to ensure aviation safety as well as the safety of visitors and airport staff, the Airport Authority Hong Kong obtained an interim injunction order from the court on 13 August to restrain persons from unlawfully and willfully obstructing or interfering with the proper use of HKIA. However, on 1 September, a large number of protesters, in response to appeals in the Internet, openly defied the injunction order by extensively disrupting airport operations as well as the traffic and order in the vicinity again, and wantonly vandalizing the Tung Chung MTR station. Meanwhile, some rioters threw objects like bricks and iron bars onto Airport Express trains and tracks, and some even trespassed on the tracks, posing a serious threat to the safety of train operations. On 7 September, some protesters made another online appeal, calling for obstruction of the airport and its access roads via different means.

It is the Police's statutory duty to maintain public safety and order. When public order and safety are severely threatened by incidents such as illegal road blockage, paralysed traffic, unlawful assembly and violent charging of police cordon lines, the Police will take appropriate actions to maintain law and order and ensure public safety and order.

Our consolidated reply to Mr Dennis KWOK's question is as follows:

(1) and (2)

The Police do not maintain a breakdown of arrestees relating to public events on the amendment of the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance who were apprehended within HKIA or the Lantau area. The overall arrest figures on the respective dates mentioned in the question are tabulated below:

Number Date of of Gender Age Offences involved arrest arrestees 26 July 2 2 males 28 Unlawful assembly, and criminal damage, 58 common assault, etc. 9 August 2 2 males 37 Unlawful assembly, and criminal damage and 43 assaulting police officer LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1107

Number Date of of Gender Age Offences involved arrest arrestees 10 August 13 12 males, 17 Unlawful assembly, 1 females to possession of offensive 41 weapon, assaulting police officer, etc. 11 August 101 78 males, 14 Unlawful assembly, 23 females to possession of offensive 53 weapon, assaulting police officer, etc. 12 August 28 20 males, 18 Unlawful assembly, 8 females to possession of offensive 60 weapon, disorder in public places, etc. 13 August 4 4 males 17 Unlawful assembly and to assaulting police officer 27 1 September 63 51 males, 13 Unlawful assembly, 12 females to criminal damage, 52 possession of offensive weapon, assaulting police officer, etc. 2 September 37 33 males, 15 unlawful assembly, 4 females to possession of offensive 30 weapon, assaulting police officer, etc. 7 September 69 54 males, 14 Unlawful assembly, 15 females to criminal damage, 59 possession of offensive weapon, assaulting police officer, etc. 8 September 88 71 males, 14 Unlawful assembly, 17 females to criminal damage, 63 possession of offensive weapon, assaulting police officer, etc.

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(3) In formulating policies, procedures and guidelines on custody and detention of detainees as well as in designing and managing the relevant facilities, the Hong Kong Police Force strive to ensure the safety of detention facilities and the protection of detainees' privacy and rights. Detainees enjoy various rights, including the rights to seek legal assistance, communicate with a relative or friend, receive copies of written records under caution, be provided with food and drink and seek medical attention etc.

In general, a person will not be detained for over 48 hours. Police detention facilities are not for prolonged detention. Just like other police districts, Lantau District (including Lantau North Divisional Police Station, Penny's Bay Police Post, Lantau South (Mui Wo) Divisional Police Station and Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge Hong Kong Port Police Base and Reporting Centre) and Airport District (including Airport Police Station and the reporting centres in the Airport Terminal Buildings) are equipped with detention facilities to meet routine operational needs. District and divisional commanders and supervisory staff at all ranks will review and deploy manpower as appropriate to ensure sufficient manpower for implementing the detention and custodial procedures and guidelines, with a view to ensuring that detainees are adequately protected in respect of matters such as safety and their entitled rights.

Protecting the stability of the financial system

9. MR CHAN CHUN-YING (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that recently, a hedge fund helmsman has publicly cast doubt if Hong Kong has foreign exchange reserves sufficient for maintaining the Linked Exchange Rate ("LER") System, and pointed out that the unceasing protests will lead to a serious downturn in Hong Kong's economy, causing a large capital outflow within the coming 12 to 18 months. Moreover, recently there have been rumours from time to time that the Hong Kong Monetary Authority ("HKMA") plans to enact legislation to cap the amount of cash that members of the public may withdraw daily. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1109

(1) of the factors and data based on which HKMA currently determines if the financial system remains stable, and whether HKMA will formulate a financial stability index to be published regularly; if not, of the reasons for that;

(2) whether HKMA has devised a crisis warning and response mechanism in respect of the LER System, so as to cope with the rapid changes in and challenges of the financial market; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and

(3) given that predators in the international financial market have been eyeing covetously the LER System and that there have been rumours spreading from time to time, whether the Government has devised a targeted financial information dissemination mechanism, so as to uphold the confidence of the market and the public in the financial system; if not, of the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Chinese): President, my reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:

(1) The Hong Kong Monetary Authority ("HKMA") has been closely monitoring the Hong Kong dollar ("HKD") market situations, including interbank rate trends, HKD spot and forward exchange rates, and option and swap transactions. The Over-the-Counter Derivatives Trade Repository is another channel through which HKMA obtains market transaction information. HKMA also collaborates with the Securities and Futures Commission ("SFC") to conduct cross-market surveillance. HKMA and SFC regularly publish a series of monetary, banking and securities and derivatives market statistics to ensure that the community is well informed of the latest financial market situations in a timely manner.

(2) The Linked Exchange Rate System ("LERS") has served Hong Kong well through many economic cycles in the past 36 years, and has been operating smoothly even in times of massive fund flows. Hong Kong has over the years built up massive buffers and resilience in the financial and banking systems. The banking sector 1110 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

is robust with ample liquidity. At the end of June 2019, the banking sector had total assets of HK$24 trillion. The average total capital ratio of locally incorporated banks exceeded 20% and liquidity coverage ratio of the major banks exceeded 150%; both have far surpassed international regulatory requirements. The asset quality of banks remains sound, with the classified loan ratio staying at a low level of 0.56%. Furthermore, LERS is underpinned by a massive Exchange Fund, which is worth over HK$4 trillion and equivalent to 2.5 times the Monetary Base in Hong Kong. The HKD exchange rate stays steady under the effective operation of LERS and the HKD market has been operating in a smooth and orderly manner.

(3) The Basic Law stipulates that no foreign exchange control policies shall be applied in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. HKD shall be freely convertible, and the free flow of capital within, into and out of Hong Kong is safeguarded. The Government has reiterated time and again that it has no intention to change LERS, which has served Hong Kong well over the years. The International Monetary Fund has repeatedly reaffirmed its support for LERS, considering it the most appropriate exchange rate arrangement for Hong Kong and an anchor of stability for the economy. The HKD exchange rate stays steady under the effective operation of LERS and the HKD market has been operating in a smooth and orderly manner. Interbank business such as lending and borrowing, foreign exchange transactions and clearing and settlement activities are conducted as usual. HKMA will clarify mistaken comments and dispel unfounded rumours as necessary in a timely manner. HKMA will also maintain close communication with the financial industry, the media and the general public, including through regular publication of a series of monetary and banking statistics, to ensure that the community is well informed of updated and accurate financial market situations, and to maintain the international and local markets' confidence in Hong Kong's financial system and LERS.

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Use of helicopters during public events

10. MR HUI CHI-FUNG (in Chinese): President, it is learnt that since June this year, some members of the public and the media found helicopters hovering in the air above during a number of large-scale demonstrations; and some demonstrators subsequently found that their clothes and exposed skin of the arms and legs were stained with fluorescent powder. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the government departments which have, since June this year, requested the Government Flying Service to assist in their operations in respect of large-scale public events by dispatching helicopters, and set out by department the following information on each of the operations of the helicopters: (i) the flight area, (ii) the purpose of the operation, and (iii) the type and quantity of the equipment brought along by the helicopter for the operation; whether the equipment brought along each time was adjusted according to the purpose of the operation; and

(2) whether the Government has, since June this year, sprayed powder from helicopters over members of the public participating in large-scale public events; if so, of the (i) legal basis, (ii) purposes and (iii) number of such operations, as well as (iv) the chemical composition and total quantity of the powder used; whether the Government has assessed the impact of the chemical composition of the powder on public health; if so, of the outcome; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, since 9 June 2019, more than 680 public protests and assemblies have been staged, and nearly 190 of them ended up in violence. Violent acts in relation to processions and assemblies have been escalating in the past five months, with rioters blocking roads, setting fire, vandalizing public properties, shops and different facilities, and violently attacking people holding different opinions. These acts have seriously disrupted public peace and posed extensive danger to the community. In view of the serious illegal acts, the Police had to take necessary actions to curb violence, restore public order and public safety, as well as protect the safety of members of the public.

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The Government Flying Service ("GFS") is one of the disciplined forces in Hong Kong. Its statutory functions are provided in the Government Flying Service Ordinance (Cap. 322). Under section 5(1) of Cap. 322, GFS shall provide flying services to the Government for such purposes as are incidental to the administration of Hong Kong. Under section 5(2), GFS supports the Hong Kong Police Force ("HKPF") and other law enforcement agencies ("LEAs") in carrying out their law enforcement duties (such as combating crime, terrorism and smuggling activities), and provides various services including those for search and rescue and casualty evacuation purposes, fighting fires, conducting aerial surveys and medical services purposes, etc. Since its establishment in 1993, GFS has been supporting HKPF and other LEAs in carrying out their law enforcement actions in accordance with such provision.

My reply to the Member's question is as follows:

(1) Between 1 June and 31 October 2019, GFS made 22 helicopter flights at HKPF's request to provide air support for police operations in public events. The helicopters concerned carried regular equipment (e.g. communication devices, rescue equipment and rescue hoist) and no additional equipment. The flight areas covered in air support are set out below:

Flight area Number of flights Hong Kong Island 5 Kowloon 8 New Territories 1 More than one of the above areas 8 Total 22

(2) GFS never sprayed powder or other substances over any person participating in public events while providing air support for law enforcement actions. The Police clarified at a press conference on 3 September that the allegation concerned was not true.

Facial and visual image recognition technologies

11. MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Chinese): President, facial and visual image recognition technologies enable the identification of individuals' identity and vehicles' registration marks ("number plates") by comparing videos or visual LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1113 images with a database. It has been reported that earlier on, some police officers, when conducting searches on the belongings of passengers on board a public bus, used high-definition digital video cameras to record the faces of passengers at a close distance. Regarding the use of facial and visual image recognition technologies by various government departments and public organizations, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether the Hong Kong Police Force ("HKPF") currently uses facial recognition technologies to conduct real-time facial recognition or visual image analyses; if so, when the use began, and set out in a table the following details by name of the systems:

(i) the supplier's name and place of registration, (ii) the technologies and functions involved, (iii) the procurement details (including the price and quantity), and (iv) HKPF's departments which have installed the system and the details of the use, including (a) the commissioning date, (b) the lowest rank of the police officers who are allowed to operate the system, (c) the specific uses, and (d) whether the supplier can store and retrieve the data, the ownership of the data, as well as the policy and the authorization arrangement for officers in respect of the storage, retrieval and use, retention and deletion of the data ("data policy");

(2) whether HKPF has plans to procure the aforesaid recognition systems in the coming three years; if so, set out in a table the following details by type of the systems:

(i) the supplier's name and place of registration, (ii) the technologies and functions involved, (iii) the procurement details (including the estimated price and quantity), and (iv) HKPF's departments which will install the systems and the plans for using such systems, including (a) the lowest rank of the police officers who will be allowed to operate the systems, (b) the projected commissioning date, (c) the specific uses and (d) the data policy;

1114 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

(3) whether HKPF has requested the Transport Department ("TD") to provide the videos or visual images that TD recorded at public places; if so, of the relevant procedure;

(4) of the following details of the automatic number plate recognition systems currently used by (A) HKPF and (B) TD (if applicable), and set out the information in a table by department and name of the system:

(i) the supplier's name and place of registration, (ii) the technologies and functions involved, (iii) the procurement details (including the price and quantity), (iv) the commissioning date, (v) the districts in which the system has been used and the number of such system, (vi) the lowest rank of the officers who are allowed to operate the system, and (vii) the data policy;

(5) whether it knows the following details of the facial recognition systems used by the Airport Authority Hong Kong ("AAHK") in the Hong Kong International Airport (A) for the self-service e-security gates and (B) for other airport facilities (if applicable), and set out the information in a table by the facility installed with such system and by name of the system:

(i) the supplier's name and place of registration, (ii) the technologies and functions involved, (iii) the procurement details (including the price and quantity), and (iv) the details of use, including (a) the commissioning date, (b) the person-times using the system last year, (c) the number and percentage of visitors who opted out on collection of their personal data last year, and (d) the data policy;

(6) of the following details regarding the use of facial recognition technologies by the Immigration Department ("ImmD"), and set out in a table the information by name of the system:

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1115

(i) the supplier's name and place of registration, (ii) the technologies and functions involved, (iii) the procurement details (including the price and quantity), (iv) the names of the immigration control points installed with the system and the number of such system installed, as well as the details of use, including (a) the commissioning date, (b) the specific uses and (c) the data policy, and (v) the lowest rank of the officers who are allowed to operate the system;

(7) whether HKPF has requested ImmD, other government departments and AAHK to provide, or obtained by way of shared databases from such departments/AAHK, the facial features data of members of the public to assist HKPF in its law enforcement; if so, whether HKPF has conducted facial recognition on such data to identify the identity of individuals (if so, of the details);

(8) whether HKPF has sought from or provided to (including by way of shared database) the Mainland authorities (including law enforcement agencies) the facial features data of Hong Kong people for law enforcement; if so, among the data requested or provided, whether there have been data used by HKPF/the Mainland authorities for identifying the identity of individuals; if so, of the details;

(9) whether it has assessed if currently government departments and public organizations have, prior to their making video records in public spaces and their using the visual images so collected for facial recognition and visual image analyses, sufficient justifications to support the necessity and the legality of such actions;

(10) given that the public have not been fully consulted on matters relating to the use, by government departments and public organizations, of technologies such as facial recognition and visual image analysis, and that some members of the public are concerned about the privacy protection issues involved in the application of such technologies, whether the Government and public organizations will suspend the use of such technologies; and

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(11) whether the Government, when making amendments to the Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance (Cap. 486), will (i) include the definition for "sensitive personal data", (ii) formulate a code of practice to be followed by those government departments and public organizations which have decided to use facial recognition and image analysis technologies, and (iii) stipulate that those government departments and public organizations using such technologies should regularly make reports to a dedicated independent monitoring authority so as to ensure that a balance is struck between safeguarding public safety and facilitating criminal investigations and protecting human rights and privacy?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President, based on the information provided by relevant bureaux including the Security Bureau, the Transport and Housing Bureau, the Information and Technology Bureau and the Office of the Privacy Commissioner for Personal Data ("PCPD"), I set out a consolidated reply to the question as follows:

(1) to (3) and (6) to (8)

The Police has always been proactively applying any technology that can assist law enforcement and investigation, and has from time to time reviewed the effectiveness of various types of investigation tools and equipment, including various computer software which are useful for the Police in identifying suspects in criminal investigations. The further information requested in the question is not appropriate for disclosure lest it should compromise the Police's technologies and capabilities in prevention and detection of crime.

One of the statutory duties of the Police is crime prevention and detection. Should there be a need to obtain any data from other departments or overseas law enforcement agencies in the course of criminal investigations, the Police will apply to do so through established procedures if it is legally feasible. The entire process will be in strict compliance with the relevant provisions of the Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance ("PDPO") and personal privacy will be respected in the use of data for investigation.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1117

Personal data collected by the Police in the course of crime prevention and detection will not be excessive, and the data obtained will only be used for the purposes of crime detection and prevention. The means of data collection must be in full compliance with the law. The personal data will be retained having regard to the purpose of data collection and the required period of data retention. Once it is no longer necessary to use the personal data for the particular purpose, the data will be destroyed within a reasonable time unless further retention is otherwise required by law.

The Immigration Department ("ImmD") has employed facial recognition technology in its Immigration Control System ("ICONS"), the Next Generation Smart Identity Card System ("SMARTICS-2") and the Next Generation Electronic Passport System ("e-Passport-2"). The technology is mainly used to verify the identities of cross-boundary passengers (including visitors and cross-boundary drivers who choose to use the vehicular e-Channel service), applicants of the Hong Kong Identity Card ("HKIC") and applicants of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region passport. Details are set out in Annex 1. In accessing the relevant data, ImmD, as the data user, always abides by the strict guidelines which regulate the data access procedures. The data access procedures can only be conducted by ImmD's authorized personnel in accordance with the requirements for personal data protection under PDPO and other relevant ordinances and regulations. Passengers/applicants' personal data would not be accessed or processed by any system contractors.

(4) and (5)

The Hong Kong Police Force's Automatic Number Plate Recognition ("ANPR") System is used by traffic enforcement officers for detecting vehicles involving four types of traffic contraventions, namely unlicensed vehicles, vehicles licensed to disqualified drivers, vehicles licensed to persons wanted for an outstanding traffic warrant and stolen vehicles. If a vehicle is suspected to be in connection with those four types of traffic contraventions, a police officer will stop the vehicle for further enquiry. The data collected 1118 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

by the system will not be used for purposes other than detection of those four types of traffic contraventions. Details of the system are set out in Annex 2.

Currently, ANPR technology is applied in the Transport Department's Speed Map Panel System, Access Control System ("ACS") at government public car parks, Toll Collection System in government tunnels and control areas as well as Toll Collection System for entry to Ma Wan. Details are set out in Annex 3.

The Airport Authority Hong Kong ("AAHK") applies facial recognition technology only at e-Security Gates at the Hong Kong International Airport. The said technology is supplied by a Hong Kong-registered company called NEC HK Limited. Featuring the NEC's patent facial recognition technology (known as NeoFace), the e-Security Gates facilitate the checking of travel documents and ensure that the identities of passengers entering the airport restricted area match the information shown on their boarding passes. There are at present a total of 68 e-Security Gates at Terminal 1. Since the launch of service on 29 August 2018, the e-Security Gates have recorded a usage of more than 17.3 million passenger times, of which about 30 000, representing about 0.17%, opted out of facial recognition. The procurement cost of the facility is fully borne by AAHK, and no government expenditure is involved.

AAHK attaches great importance to protecting customers' privacy and personal data. In this regard, AAHK has developed its Privacy Policy Statement and Personal Information Collection Statement to inform e-Security Gate users about how AAHK collects, uses and safeguards the personal data. For details, please refer to the following link to the Privacy Policy Statement and Personal Information Collection Statement:

(9) to (11)

From the perspective of safeguarding personal data privacy, government departments and public organizations will make reference to internal guidelines when capturing images or videos and using CCTV systems in public spaces. These guidelines state that LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1119 only authorized officers are allowed to use the systems, and seek to ensure that the use of the systems, the collection of recorded images and the handling of data are in compliance with PDPO.

Currently, PDPO regulates the protection of personal data. According to the Data Protection Principle ("DPP") 1 under Schedule 1 of PDPO, the collection of personal data has to be necessary or directly related to the purpose for which the data is collected, and the data collected should be necessary and adequate but not excessive for such purpose. DPP 4 also states that data users should take all practicable steps to ensure the personal data they hold are protected against unauthorized or accidental access, processing, erasure, loss or use, having particular regard to "the kind of the data and the harm that could result if any of those events take place". Therefore, data users should adopt stricter security measures for sensitive personal data. PCPD is planning to issue guidelines on "sensitive personal data" and advise on best practice for collection, use, disclosure, transfer and protection of personal data which is more sensitive in nature.

In fact, biometric data (such as facial features captured by facial recognition technology) is data directly related to an individual. When biometric data is linked with personal data in another database, or after data consolidation and analysis, a particular individual can be directly or indirectly identified. Therefore, biometric data is also regarded as personal data under PDPO and regulated by the provisions of the Ordinance. PDPO is applicable to both the public and private sectors. All organizations/departments are required to comply with PDPO and its relevant DPPs when collecting and using personal data. They should also ensure that the collection of biometric data is for specific purpose with genuine necessity before collecting the data.

PCPD understands that the use and collection of biometric data would become more common. In this connection, it has published the Guidance on Collection and Use of Biometric Data to put forward a number of measures and recommendations for data users handling sensitive biometric data on minimizing the risk with regard to biometric data collection, and to assist organizations in collecting biometric data in a responsible manner. The guidelines include:

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- Data users who intend to collect biometric data must first consider whether the collection is necessary;

- Data subjects should be provided with a free and informed choice to allow the collection of their biometric data, together with a detailed explanation about the impact of the collection of such data on personal data privacy;

- Strict controls on the access to, use and transfer of biometric data should be imposed. An individual's biometric data should not be used for any purposes other than the ones for which it was originally collected (including disclosure to a third party) unless explicit and voluntary consent has been obtained in advance;

- For biometric data which is no longer required for the purpose for which it is collected, regular and frequent purge should be carried out;

- Measures should be taken to guard against any risk of compromising and thieving of the biometric database and ensure that effective security measures are implemented as are reasonably practicable in the particular circumstances. For example, biometric data should be encrypted while it is being stored or transmitted;

- Regular privacy compliance assessments and reviews should be conducted to ensure that the acts done and practices engaged are in compliance with the Ordinance. Proper training, guidance and supervision have to be given to the staff responsible for the collection and management of the biometric data; and

- If contractors are engaged in the handling of personal data, contractual or other means must be adopted to prevent personal data transferred to the contractor from being kept longer than necessary and from unauthorized or accidental access, processing, erasure, loss or use.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1121

Annex 1

Systems with Facial Recognition Technology Employed by ImmD

1. ICONS

Control Points Procurement or Minimum Name of Technology Details Offices Grade of Supplier and involved Data (including with Launch Date Use Personnel Place of and Policies price and System Operating Registration Function quantity) Installed the System and Quantity NEC Hong Provision The Details ICONS was To verify passengers' ImmD's Verification Kong of facial contracts for at Table launched in identities in the departmental of Limited recognition ICONS to phases from following situations: guidelines passengers' technology involve four Annex 1 2016 and and PDPO identities is Place of for ICONS contractors fully (a) visitors using the done Registration: to verify with a total implemented self-service automatically Hong Kong passengers' contract from 2017. departure service by system. identities. value of (i.e. Smart around Departure $1.5 billion, e-Channels) when covering departing from system Hong Kong; development and (b) visitors going subsequent through arrival maintenance clearance at the for 10 years. arrival clearance counters, where the cameras installed thereat would take photos of them;

(c) visitors using self-service enrolment kiosks to enrol e-Channel service; and

(d) cross-boundary drivers who choose to use the vehicular e-Channels. 1122 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Control Points Procurement or Minimum Name of Technology Details Offices Grade of Supplier and involved Data (including with Launch Date Use Personnel Place of and Policies price and System Operating Registration Function quantity) Installed the System and Quantity ATAL Provision The total Details 19 August To verify the identities ImmD's Verification Technologies of facial contract at Table 2017 of cross-boundary departmental of Limited recognition value was to drivers who choose to guidelines passengers' technology around Annex 1 use the vehicular and PDPO identities is Place of for the $17 million, e-Channels. done Registration: second- covering the automatically Hong Kong phase system by system. implementa- development tion of the for the vehicular vehicular e-Channels e-Channels in in vehicular vehicular kiosks for kiosks for private car private car and in the subsequent Shenzhen maintenance Bay for 10 years. Control Point to verify passengers' identities. Atos Provision The Details 24 October To verify passengers' ImmD's Verification Information of facial contracts for at Table 2018 identities in the departmental of Technology recognition ICONS in to following situations: guidelines passengers' HK Limited technology Hong Kong- Annex 1 (a) visitors using the and PDPO identities is for ICONS Zhuhai- self-service done Place of in the Hong Macao departure service automatically Registration: Kong- Bridge Hong (i.e. Smart by system. Hong Kong Zhuhai- Kong Port Departure Macao involve six e-Channels) to Bridge contractors depart from Hong with a total Hong Kong Kong; contract Port to (b) visitors going value of verify through arrival around passengers' clearance at the $200 million, identities. arrival clearance covering counters, where the system development cameras installed and thereat would take photos of them; LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1123

Control Points Procurement or Minimum Name of Technology Details Offices Grade of Supplier and involved Data (including with Launch Date Use Personnel Place of and Policies price and System Operating Registration Function quantity) Installed the System and Quantity subsequent (c) visitors using maintenance self-service for 10 years. enrolment kiosks to enrol e-Channel service; and (d) cross-boundary drivers who choose to use the vehicular e-Channels.

2. SMARTICS-2

Control Points Procurement or Minimum Name of Technology Details Offices Grade of Supplier and Data involved and (including with Launch Date Use Personnel Place of Policies Function price and System Operating Registration quantity) Installed the System and Quantity PCCW Provision of The Details Cameras and To conduct facial ImmD's Verification Solutions facial SMARTICS-2 at Table facial verification for departmental of applicants' Limited recognition contracts to recognition confirmation of guidelines, identities is technology for involve two Annex 1 function at the applicant's Registration done Place of SMARTICS-2 contractors registration identity when the of Persons automatically Registration: to verify the with a total booths: applicant applies Ordinance, by system Hong Kong identities of contract value 26 November for the new Registration applicants of around 2018 HKIC. of Persons upon $700 million, Regulations application for covering and PDPO and collection system of their development HKICs. and subsequent maintenance for 10 years. 1124 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Control Points Procurement or Minimum Name of Technology Details Offices Grade of Supplier and Data involved and (including with Launch Date Use Personnel Place of Policies Function price and System Operating Registration quantity) Installed the System and Quantity Cameras and To conduct facial facial verification for recognition confirmation of at the applicant's Self-Service identity when the Collection applicant collects Kiosks: his/her HKIC at 18 February Self-Service 2019 Collection Kiosks.

3. e-Passport-2

Control Points or Procurement Minimum Name of Offices Technology Details Grade of Supplier and with Launch Data involved and (including Use Personnel Place of System Date Policies Function price and Operating Registration Installed quantity) the System and Quantity ATAL Provision of The Details at 14 May When the applicant ImmD's Verification Technologies facial e-Passport-2 Table to 2019 chooses to submit departmental of applicants' Limited verification contracts Annex 1 his/her photo (i.e. guidelines identities is function for involve three instead of using the and PDPO done Place of e-Passport-2. contractors live photo-taking automatically Registration: with total service) at the Travel by system. Hong Kong contract value Document of around Submission Kiosks, PCCW $540 million, the e-Passport-2 will Solutions covering verify the submitted Limited system photo against the development applicant, so as to Place of and subsequent confirm that the Registration: maintenance submitted photo Hong Kong for 10 years. relates to the applicant.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1125

Table to Annex 1

Systems at Control Points or Immigration Offices equipped with Facial Recognition Technology

1. ICONS

Camera and Facial Recognition Software e-Channels Arrival Self-Service Equipped Control Points or Offices Clearance Vehicular e-Channel with "Smart Counters e-Channels Enrolment Departure" for Visitors Kiosks service Airport 33 96 0 8 Lo Wu 82 70 0 0 Hung Hom 8 15 0 0 Lok Ma Chau 23 35 26 0 Lok Ma Chau Spur Line 53 36 0 0 Man Kam To 9 15 12 0 Sha Tau Kok 5 4 6 0 China Ferry Terminal 17 30 0 2 Macau Ferry Terminal 28 18 0 7 Tuen Mun Ferry Terminal 3 4 0 1 Shenzhen Bay 39 36 50 0 Kai Tak Cruise Terminal 7 15 0 0 Express Rail Link West 29 66 0 0 Kowloon Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao 40 55 30 2 Bridge Immigration Headquarters 0 0 0 2 Total 376 495 124 22

2. SMARTICS-2

Cameras at Cameras at Registration Booths Self-Service Collection Office and Facial Recognition Kiosks and Facial Software Recognition Software Registration of Persons Offices 91 7 1126 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Cameras at Cameras at Registration Booths Self-Service Collection Office and Facial Recognition Kiosks and Facial Software Recognition Software Smart Identity Card 229 18 Replacement Centres Total 320 25

Notes:

Registration of Persons Offices―Hong Kong, Kowloon, Kwun Tong, Fo Tan and Yuen Long.

Smart Identity Card Replacement Centres―Hong Kong Island, East Kowloon, West Kowloon, Tsuen Wan, Sha Tin, Sheung Shui, Tuen Mun, Yuen Long and Tseung Kwan O.

3. e-Passport-2

Facial Recognition Cameras at Travel Software at Travel Office Document Submission Document Submission Kiosk Kiosks Branch Office 25 25 Immigration Headquarters 8 8 Total 33 33

Note:

Branch Offices―Hong Kong Island Travel Documents Issuing Office, East Kowloon Office, Fo Tan Office, Sha Tin Office, West Kowloon Office, Yuen Long Office and Tuen Mun Office.

Annex 2

Hong Kong Police Force's ANPR System

(i) (a) Supplier's name (a) QRO Solutions Ltd

(b) Place of registration (b) United Kingdom (ii) Technologies and The ANPR System uses a camera to scan the functions involved number plates of vehicles and instantly compares them with the attached database for detecting vehicles in contravention of traffic LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1127

regulations. The system is used for identifying four types of concerned vehicles, namely:

(1) Unlicensed Vehicles; (2) Vehicles Licensed to Disqualified Drivers; (3) Vehicles Licensed to Persons Wanted for an Outstanding Traffic Warrant; and (4) Stolen Vehicles. (iii) Procurement details Six pedestal ANPR systems totalling (including price and HK$4,760,000. quantity) Eight mobile ANPR systems totalling HK$1,398,400. (iv) Commissioning date Pedestal ANPR system was commissioned in March 2015.

Mobile ANPR system was commissioned in March 2019. (v) Districts in which the The six pedestal and eight mobile ANPR system has been used and systems can be used on roads in any districts. the number of such There is no fixed location. system (vi) The lowest rank of Any police officer performing the duty with the officers who are allowed lowest rank being a Constable. to operate the system (vii) Data policy The ANPR System is only used for identifying four types of concerned vehicles. During each operation, the operator cannot save, alter or keep any data. All records of detection by the system are automatically deleted after each operation.

Besides, the system does not collect data on the locations of the vehicles examined on roads and the vehicle owners.

1128 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Annex 3

Application of ANPR Technology by the Transport Department ("TD")

Automatic Toll Collection Toll Collection ACS at Speed Map Panel System at System for Government System Government Entry to Ma Public Car Parks Tunnels and Wan Control Areas (i) (a) Name of (a) Autotoll (a) Parking (a) Autotoll (a) Autotoll supplier Limited Systems Limited Limited (b) Place of (b) Hong Kong Limited (b) Hong Kong (b) Hong Kong registration (b) Hong Kong (ii) Technologies The system adopts The system makes The system The system and functions ANPR hashing use of ANPR makes use of makes use of involved technology(1) in technology to ANPR ANPR deriving traffic prevent abuse of technology to technology to information such monthly tickets by identify those check whether as average checking the vehicles vehicles vehicular speed vehicles entering evading tunnel entering Ma and journey time. the car parks tolls for Wan are issued Such information against the vehicle follow-up. with valid is disseminated to registration marks permits. the public to keep on the issued them informed of monthly tickets. real-time traffic In addition, to conditions. prevent car theft, when an hourly parking vehicle leaves a car park, the system verifies if the same parking ticket was used for entering the car park. (iii) Procurement HK$4 million The total cost of The installation The total cost details (including system replacement of cost of each of the toll (including price design as well as ACS in 10 automatic toll collection and quantity) procurement, government public collection lane system is LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1129

Automatic Toll Collection Toll Collection ACS at Speed Map Panel System at System for Government System Government Entry to Ma Public Car Parks Tunnels and Wan Control Areas installation and car parks is about is about HK$1.8 million. testing of 38 HK$7.5 million. HK$2.5 million. Since the ANPR detectors). Since the ANPR Since the ANPR system system is a ANPR system is a sub-system sub-system of is a sub-system of such toll ACS, no of such collection breakdown for the automatic toll system, no cost of the ANPR collection breakdown for system could be system, no the cost of the provided. breakdown for ANPR system the cost of the could be ANPR system provided. could be provided. (iv) Commissioning October 2012 March 2019 2008 2017 date (v) Districts in 38 ANPR All entrances and All 45 All four toll which the detectors are exits of public car automatic toll lanes for entry system has installed on parks managed by lanes of to Ma Wan are been used and various strategic TD(2) are equipped government each equipped the number of routes in the New with one ANPR tunnels and with one set of such system Territories system control areas ANPR are each system(4) equipped with one set of ANPR system(3) (vi) The lowest The system Operated by the Not applicable Operated by rank of officers operates staff of outsourced (Images stored staff of the who are automatically. contractors. The in the system contractors. allowed to Manual operation minimum rank is are kept by The minimum operate the is not required. carpark attendant. Autotoll rank is toll system Limited) collector. 1130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Automatic Toll Collection Toll Collection ACS at Speed Map Panel System at System for Government System Government Entry to Ma Public Car Parks Tunnels and Wan Control Areas (vii) Data policy Recognized Data saved in the Data saved in Data saved in number plates and system will be the system will the system will the associated retained for one be retained for be retained for hashed values are month(5) three months(5) 60 days(5) automatically deleted immediately after use. Traffic data of average vehicular speed and journey time are automatically stored in the computer system and disseminated to the public via different channels (such as TD's "HKeMobility" and the Government's Public Sector Information Portal "data.gov.hk").

Notes:

(1) Hashing technology is the conversion of collected information into hashed values (i.e. strings composed of alphabets and numbers) to ensure that the relevant information cannot be recovered, thereby safeguarding data protection.

(2) Except for the Yau Ma Tei Car Park to be demolished for construction of the Central Kowloon Route and the Wong Tai Sin Public Transport Terminus Car Park which commenced operation in September 2019, all public car parks managed by TD are equipped with ANPR system. The Wong Tai Sin Public Transport Terminus Car Park will be equipped with such system in late 2019.

(3) Each set of system is composed of three Internet protocol ("IP") cameras and one video camera.

(4) Each set of system is composed of one IP camera and one video camera.

(5) For cases involving disputes, relevant data will be retained until completion of the cases.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1131

Letting Scheme for Subsidized Sale Developments with Premium Unpaid

12. MR HO KAI-MING (in Chinese): President, in September last year, the Hong Kong Housing Society ("HKHS") launched the Letting Scheme for Subsidized Sale Developments with Premium Unpaid ("Letting Scheme"), under which eligible owners of HKHS's subsidized sale flats ("SSFs") are allowed to let their flats with premium unpaid to families in need. In July this year, the Hong Kong Housing Authority ("HA") decided to join the Letting Scheme on a trial basis, and intended to invite applications starting from the fourth quarter of this year from eligible owners of HA's SSFs for letting their flats with premium unpaid. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether it knows the tenancy position of HKHS's SSFs since the launch of the Letting Scheme;

(2) of the progress of HA's work related to its participation in the Letting Scheme, and the anticipated number of applications to be received in the first 12 months;

(3) whether it has assessed the impacts of the implementation of the Letting Scheme on the rental market for subsidized housing (including the supply of flats and levels of rents);

(4) whether it has measures to enhance the attractiveness of the Letting Scheme (e.g. waiving government rent and rates or providing repair support) in order to encourage more owners to join the Scheme;

(5) given that at present the authorities, in assessing the rateable value of residential flats, will make reference to the open market rents agreed at or around the date of valuation for similar properties in the locality, whether the authorities will take into consideration the rents of the flats let under the Letting Scheme in assessing the rateable value of residential flats in future; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and

(6) as it is estimated that the number of eligible flats under the Letting Scheme exceeds 350 000, whether the authorities have studied the impacts of the implementation of the Letting Scheme on the overall rent level and rateable value of residential flats in Hong Kong?

1132 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, our reply to Mr HO Kai-ming's question is as follows:

(1) and (2)

According to the Hong Kong Housing Society ("HS"), it launched the "Letting Scheme for Subsidised Sale Developments with Premium Unpaid" ("Letting Scheme") in September 2018 on a pilot basis, allowing eligible owners of its subsidized sale flats ("SSFs") to let part of their flats to eligible public rental housing ("PRH") applicants. Since the launch of the Letting Scheme, HS has received applications from 13 owners, six of which were issued "Eligible-to-Let Certificate"; and applications from 53 tenants, 19 of which were issued "Eligible-to-Rent Certificate". No tenancy agreement has been signed yet. After conducting an online survey and taking into account views from Legislative Council Members, concern groups, academics, property agents and the media, HS has formulated enhancement measures for the Letting Scheme, which include allowing owners to let the whole flat and to let the whole flat to specified non-governmental organizations, which will in turn sublet the flat to eligible PRH applicants.

In July this year, the Hong Kong Housing Authority ("HA") decided to join HS' enhanced Letting Scheme on a trial basis, allowing eligible owners of HA's SSFs to let their flats with premium unpaid to eligible PRH applicants as well. Currently, there are around 340 000 HA owners who have owned their flats with premium unpaid for 10 years or more.

The enhanced Letting Scheme will open for applications by eligible owners and tenants from 18 November 2019 and December 2019 respectively. HA has not estimated the number of owners and tenants who will participate in the Letting Scheme. HA and HS will conduct a mid-term review of the effectiveness of the Letting Scheme in the light of operational experiences after one year of operation.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1133

(3) and (6)

The Letting Scheme allows eligible SSF owners to let their flats with premium unpaid, which may increase the potential supply of SSFs in the rental market. However, whether the actual supply will increase, and the extent of increase if any, will depend on the number of owners that participate in the Letting Scheme eventually.

The rental levels of individual SSF estates and the overall rental market are affected by a number of factors, including the overall supply and demand in the rental market, the economic environment and affordability of the tenants, etc. Therefore, at the moment, it will be difficult to assess how the launch of the enhanced Letting Scheme may impact on the rental levels of SSFs and Hong Kong's overall residential market as well as the rateable values.

(4) The Letting Scheme aims to provide an option to owners who have idle space and wish to make better use of their SSFs to let their flats, and at the same time help alleviate the housing difficulties faced by eligible PRH applicants. Under the Letting Scheme, some of the alienation restrictions of the flats concerned are lifted to allow owners to let their flats with premium unpaid. We believe that this arrangement is conducive to attracting owners to let their idle space or flats.

(5) Rateable value is an estimated annual rental value at which the property might reasonably be expected to let in the open market at the designated valuation reference date on the assumption that the property was then vacant and to let. In assessing the rateable value, the Rating and Valuation Department ("RVD") makes reference to open market rents agreed at or around the valuation date for the same or similar types of properties.

As the owners and tenants who participate in the Letting Scheme are subject to certain restrictions, RVD will duly analyse and study the rental information collected when assessing rateable values of the properties.

1134 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Linked Exchange Rate System

13. MR PAUL TSE (in Chinese): President, recently, the founder of a hedge fund cast doubt on whether Hong Kong's foreign exchange reserves are sufficient to maintain the Linked Exchange Rate System. He also forecast that the System would naturally expire in 2047, and suggested investors to convert their Hong Kong dollar assets into US dollar assets as early as possible. On the other hand, some members of the private banking sector have relayed that in recent months, the number of applications for opening offshore bank accounts by their clients (especially those Hong Kong people with liquid assets of value ranging between several million and 10 million to 20 million Hong Kong dollars, and Mainlanders whose foreign assets are based in Hong Kong) has substantially increased, as these clients feel that it is safer to hold their assets in overseas places (e.g. Singapore) than in Hong Kong. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the new measures put in place to ensure that Hong Kong has sufficient foreign exchange reserves to defend the Linked Exchange Rate System;

(2) whether it has assessed the situation of capital outflow from Hong Kong (particularly transfer of funds to Singapore) in recent months; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and

(3) of the measures put in place by the Government, in the light of the ongoing political turmoil and social unrest in Hong Kong in recent months, to maintain the confidence of local and overseas investors as well as members of the public in the Linked Exchange Rate System, Hong Kong dollars and Hong Kong dollar assets?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Chinese): President, my reply to the various parts of the question is as follows.

(1) Hong Kong has ample reserves which provide a powerful safeguard for financial stability. The Exchange Fund, over 80% of which being foreign exchange reserves, is worth over HK$4 trillion and equivalent to 2.5 times the Monetary Base in Hong Kong. The Linked Exchange Rate System ("LERS") has served Hong Kong well through many economic cycles in the past 36 years, and has LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1135

been operating smoothly even in times of massive fund flows. The Hong Kong dollar ("HKD") exchange rate stays steady under the effective operation of LERS and the HKD market has been operating in a smooth and orderly manner. Hong Kong has over the years built up massive buffers and resilience in the financial and banking systems. The banking sector is robust with ample liquidity. At the end of June 2019, the banking sector had total assets of HK$24 trillion. The average total capital ratio of locally incorporated banks exceeded 20% and liquidity coverage ratio of the major banks exceeded 150%; both have far surpassed international regulatory requirements. The asset quality of banks remains sound, with the classified loan ratio staying at a low level of 0.56%.

(2) Although the Hong Kong Monetary Authority ("HKMA") has learnt from banks that enquiries about opening offshore accounts had increased in recent months, there have been no noticeable fund outflows from HKD or Hong Kong's banking system. According to the latest deposit and money supply statistics and financial market conditions, total deposits of the banking system and the HKD exchange rate have remained steady in recent months. Indeed, it is not unusual for funds flowing in and out of an international financial centre like Hong Kong. Hong Kong has over the years built up massive buffers and resilience in the financial and banking systems. Banks have sufficient liquidity to cope with outflow of deposits even if it were to happen. Coupled with the strong underpinning of LERS by the massive Exchange Fund, Hong Kong is fully capable of safeguarding the stability of its monetary and financial systems. HKMA will continue to closely monitor the movements of the foreign exchange and local currency markets, with a view to maintaining the stability of HKD through LERS.

(3) The Basic Law stipulates that no foreign exchange control policies shall be applied in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. HKD shall be freely convertible, and the free flow of capital within, into and out of Hong Kong is safeguarded. The Government has reiterated time and again that it has no intention to change LERS, which has served Hong Kong well over the years. The International Monetary Fund has repeatedly reaffirmed its support for LERS, considering it the most appropriate exchange rate arrangement for Hong Kong and an anchor of stability for the 1136 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

economy. The HKD exchange rate stays steady under the effective operation of LERS and the HKD market has been operating in a smooth and orderly manner. Interbank business such as lending and borrowing, foreign exchange transactions and clearing and settlement activities are conducted as usual. HKMA will clarify mistaken comments and dispel unfounded rumours as necessary in a timely manner. HKMA will also maintain close communication with the financial industry, the media and the general public, including through regular publication of a series of monetary and banking statistics, to ensure that the community is well informed of updated and accurate financial market situations, and to maintain the international and local markets' confidence in Hong Kong's financial system and LERS.

Statistics on employment, wages and gross domestic product

14. MR WONG KWOK-KIN (in Chinese): President, will the Government provide the following statistics for 2017 and 2018 respectively (adopting the first quarter of 2004 as the base period, i.e. first quarter of 2004=100):

(1) for various industries and occupations, (i) the numbers of employed persons, (ii) the Nominal Wage Indices, (iii) the Real Wage Indices, (iv) the Nominal Indices of Payroll per Person Engaged and (v) the Real Indices of Payroll per Person Engaged, broken down by gender; and

(2) (i) the Nominal Gross Domestic Product ("GDP"), (ii) the Real GDP and (iii) the growth rates of such figures?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Chinese): President, our response to various parts of the question is provided below:

(1) The number of employed persons (excluding foreign domestic helpers) by gender for various industries and occupations in Hong Kong in 2017 and 2018 is set out in Annex 1, whereas the nominal and real wage indices for selected industries and selected occupational groups and the nominal and real indices of payroll per LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1137

person engaged for selected industries during the same period are set out in Annex 2 and Annex 3 respectively. The Government has neither compiled wage indices broken down by gender nor indices of payroll per person engaged broken down by gender and occupation.

(2) Hong Kong's Gross Domestic Product ("GDP") at current market prices (i.e. in nominal terms) and in chained (2017) dollars (i.e. in real terms) in 2017 and 2018 respectively as compared to 2004 are as follows :

2017 2018 GDP in nominal terms (HK$) 2,662.8 billion 2,842.9 billion Compared with 2004 +102.2% +115.9% GDP in real terms (HK$) 2,662.8 billion 2,742.8 billion Compared with 2004 +59.7% +64.5%

Annex 1

Number of employed persons(1) (excluding foreign domestic helpers) by gender in various industries and occupations

(i) By industry and gender

Fourth Quarter 2017 Fourth Quarter 2018 Industry Both Both Male Female Male Female genders genders Manufacturing 68 800 38 700 107 500 70 200 33 500 103 700 Construction 313 400 32 300 345 700 312 500 39 300 351 700 Import/export 227 000 224 400 451 400 215 500 206 800 422 300 trade and wholesale Retail 130 900 205 800 336 600 130 100 197 400 327 400 Accommodation(2) 137 400 156 200 293 700 143 500 151 000 294 500 and food services(3) Transportation, 251 000 69 300 320 300 241 200 78 700 319 900 storage, postal and courier activities 1138 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Fourth Quarter 2017 Fourth Quarter 2018 Industry Both Both Male Female Male Female genders genders Information and 88 600 46 700 135 300 91 200 41 000 132 200 communications Financing and 127 800 137 800 265 600 132 600 139 500 272 100 insurance Real estate 103 800 56 300 160 000 91 000 67 900 158 800 Professional and 175 700 184 800 360 500 179 300 189 500 368 700 business services Public 292 700 437 900 730 600 306 600 457 300 763 900 administration, social and personal services Other industries 15 700 4 000 19 700 19 700 7 100 26 800 Overall 1 932 800 1 594 200 3 527 000 1 933 200 1 609 000 3 542 200

(ii) By occupation and gender

Fourth Quarter 2017 Fourth Quarter 2018 Occupation Both Both Male Female Male Female genders genders Managers and 303 300 160 900 464 200 288 700 157 400 446 100 administrators Professionals 169 000 111 400 280 400 190 700 120 100 310 800 Associate 415 200 377 300 792 500 421 800 380 700 802 500 professionals Clerical 134 300 356 900 491 300 123 900 356 100 480 000 support workers Service and 252 900 365 900 618 900 259 300 354 900 614 100 sales workers Craft and 236 500 10 900 247 500 234 100 11 200 245 300 related workers Plant and 171 000 3 200 174 200 164 200 3 700 167 900 machine operators and assemblers Elementary 248 500 207 000 455 500 247 700 224 400 472 100 occupations LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1139

Fourth Quarter 2017 Fourth Quarter 2018 Occupation Both Both Male Female Male Female genders genders Other 2 000 700 2 700 2 800 600 3 400 occupations Overall 1 932 800 1 594 200 3 527 000 1 933 200 1 609 000 3 542 200

Notes:

(1) The number of employed persons includes persons aged 15 and over who have been at work for pay or profit during the seven days before enumeration or who have had formal job attachment. Unpaid family workers and persons who were on leave/holiday during the seven days before enumeration are also included.

(2) Accommodation services cover hotels, guesthouses, boarding houses and other establishments providing short-term accommodation.

(3) Retail, accommodation and food services industries as a whole is generally referred to as the "consumption- and tourism-related segment".

Figures may not add up to the totals due to rounding.

Source: General Household Survey, Census and Statistics Department

Annex 2

Nominal wage indices ("NWI") and real wage indices ("RWI")(1) and (2) for selected industries and selected occupational groups

(i) By selected industry

(March 2004=100) Selected industry December 2017 December 2018 NWI 149.3 155.2 Manufacturing RWI 100.6 101.5 Import/export, wholesale and retail NWI 144.1 148.4 trades RWI 97.1 97.1 Accommodation(3) and food service NWI 160.9 168.5 activities RWI 108.4 110.2 NWI 139.4 147.6 Transportation RWI 93.9 96.6 NWI 152.7 158.6 Financial and insurance activities RWI 102.9 103.7 Real estate leasing and maintenance NWI 164.2 171.1 management RWI 110.6 111.9 1140 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Selected industry December 2017 December 2018 NWI 188.3 196.3 Professional and business services RWI 126.9 128.4 NWI 195.8 203.4 Personal services RWI 131.9 133.0 NWI 156.7 163.1 All selected industries(4) and (5) RWI 105.6 106.7

(ii) By selected occupational group

(March 2004=100) Selected occupational group December 2017 December 2018 NWI 153.6 158.9 Supervisory and technical workers RWI 103.5 103.9 NWI 144.5 149.3 Clerical and secretarial workers RWI 97.4 97.6 NWI 144.8 155.3 Craftsmen and operatives RWI 97.6 101.6 NWI 170.6 178.5 Service workers RWI 114.9 116.7 NWI 172.3 179.7 Miscellaneous non-production workers RWI 116.1 117.5 NWI 156.7 163.1 All selected occupations(5) RWI 105.6 106.7

Notes:

(1) Wage includes basic wage and other regular and guaranteed allowances and bonuses.

(2) RWI are obtained by deflating NWI by the Consumer Price Index (A).

(3) Accommodation services cover hotels, guesthouses, boarding houses and other establishments providing short-term accommodation.

(4) Refers to all industries covered by the wage enquiry of the Labour Earnings Survey, including the electricity and gas supply industry, sewerage and waste management activities industry and publishing activities industry, the statistics of which are not separately shown.

(5) The survey covers employees employed in the selected occupations up to supervisory level for the selected industries only. Employees at managerial and professional levels are not covered.

Source: Labour Earnings Survey, Census and Statistics Department

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1141

Annex 3

Nominal indices of payroll per person engaged ("NPI") and real indices of payroll per person engaged ("RPI") (1) and (2) for selected industries

(First Quarter, 2004=100) Fourth Fourth Selected industry Quarter Quarter 2017 2018 NPI 136.4 141.8 Manufacturing RPI 94.0 95.3 NPI 219.1 228.1 Sewerage, waste management and remediation activities RPI 151.0 153.2 NPI 147.1 151.2 Import/export and wholesale trades RPI 101.4 101.5 NPI 179.4 184.1 Retail trade RPI 123.6 123.6 NPI 149.1 156.2 Transportation, storage, postal and courier services RPI 102.7 104.9 NPI 163.8 173.1 Accommodation(3) and food service activities RPI 112.9 116.3 NPI 142.4 147.2 Information and communications RPI 98.2 98.9 NPI 174.9 180.8 Financial and insurance activities RPI 120.5 121.4 NPI 152.9 159.1 Real estate activities RPI 105.3 106.9 NPI 169.8 178.0 Professional and business services RPI 117.0 119.5 NPI 136.3 140.2 Social and personal services RPI 93.9 94.2 NPI 155.8 161.6 All selected industries(4) RPI 107.4 108.5

Notes:

(1) In addition to elements covered by wage, payroll also covers other irregular payments to workers such as discretionary bonuses and overtime allowances.

(2) RPI are obtained by deflating NPI by the Composite Consumer Price Index.

(3) Accommodation services cover hotels, guesthouses, boarding houses and other establishments providing short-term accommodation.

1142 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

(4) Refers to all industries covered by the payroll enquiry of the Labour Earnings Survey, including the mining and quarrying industry and the electricity and gas supply industry, the statistics of which are not separately shown.

Source: Labour Earnings Survey, Census and Statistics Department

Earn and Learn Pilot Scheme for the Retail Industry

15. MR LUK CHUNG-HUNG (in Chinese): President, with an aim to attract talents to join the retail industry, the Government, the Vocational Training Council and the Hong Kong Retail Management Association jointly launched in 2014 the Earn and Learn Pilot Scheme for the Retail Industry ("the Earn and Learn Scheme") to provide student-workers with an opportunity to "earn and learn" as well as a well-defined progression pathway. According to the arrangement under the Earn and Learn Scheme, if the student-workers of the Foundation Diploma ("FD") programme, upon graduation, become full-time employees of the same employers as those during the training period, they will be entitled to a monthly income of not less than $11,000. It has been learnt that the first four runs of the FD programme were completed between 2016 and this year. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether it knows:

(1) in respect of the fourth run of the FD programme, (i) the number of enrollees, (ii) the number of dropouts with a breakdown by reason therefor, (iii) the number of graduates, (iv) the dates of graduation, and (v) the number of graduates who are currently still employed by the same employers as those during the training periods;

(2) the respective total numbers of positions offered by the employers participating in the Earn and Learn Scheme to the graduates of the first to the fourth runs of the FD programme; among such positions, the respective numbers of those with a monthly basic salary of $11,000 or more and less than $11,000, and among the latter, the respective numbers of positions with a monthly basic salary (i) of less than $5,000, (ii) between $5,000 and $7,000, (iii) between $7,001 and $9,000, and (iv) over $9,000;

(3) among the graduates of the first to the fourth runs of the FD programme, (i) the number of those who still work in the retail industry (with a breakdown by the positions and the monthly income range to which they belong), and (ii) the number of those who have left the retail industry (with a breakdown by reason for leaving); and

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1143

(4) the respective numbers of enrollees for the fifth and subsequent runs of the FD programme?

SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, the Earn and Learn Pilot Scheme for the Retail Industry ("the Pilot Scheme") was launched in 2014 by the Vocational Training Council ("VTC") in partnership with the Hong Kong Retail Management Association ("HKRMA"). The Pilot Scheme provides opportunities for Secondary Six graduates to attend classes on campus while acquiring retail work experience and receiving a government allowance of $2,000 per month, with a view to encouraging aspiring youngsters to join the retail workforce. Under the Pilot Scheme, a total of 303 student-workers from the 1st to 3rd cohorts had completed the Foundation Diploma ("FD")/Diploma of Foundation Studies ("DFS")(1) programme. In addition, 19 student-workers from the 4th DFS cohort completed the programme in February 2019. The DFS programme for the 5th and 6th cohorts is still in progress.

My reply to the various parts of the question is as follows:

(1) The DFS programme for the 4th cohort commenced in September 2017, with an intake of 30 student-workers. Among them, 19 completed the programme in end February 2019 and the remaining 11 had dropped out. According to the responses given by the drop-outs when enquired by VTC, they left the programme for various reasons, including early engagement in full-time jobs in the retail or other sectors, switch to full-time studies, lack of capacity for coping with work and study concurrently, and miscellaneous personal reasons.

VTC would conduct tracking surveys of student-workers after their graduation. For DFS graduates of the 4th cohort who just completed the programme in end February this year, since the first tracking survey only commenced in September this year and VTC is still collecting responses from the graduates, the relevant information is not yet available for the time being.

(2) As set out in the proposal put forward by the Government when seeking funding approval for the Pilot Scheme from the Legislative Council, employers should offer a salary of no less than $11,000 per

(1) Foundation Diploma was renamed as Diploma of Foundation Studies in 2016. 1144 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

month, which may include basic salary, commission and allowances, to the graduates of the FD programme if they become full-time employees of the companies that have provided them with the internship placements.

VTC would conduct the first tracking survey of student-workers of each cohort in about six months after their graduation. For the first tracking surveys of the 303 FD/DFS graduates of the 1st to 3rd cohorts, VTC received responses from 150 graduates. 43% of the respondents were working in the retail sector and among them, 22% and 37% were employed as full-time and part-time staff respectively by the companies that had provided them with internship placements. The graduates employed as full-time staff in these companies were receiving a salary of no less than $11,000 per month, including basic salary, commission and allowances. For the position regarding the 4th cohort of DFS graduates, please refer to the reply in part (1) above.

(3) For the tracking surveys conducted by VTC in September 2018 of the 303 FD/DFS graduates of the 1st to 3rd cohorts, VTC received responses from 83 graduates. By the time of the said surveys, they had graduated for a period ranging from six months to two and a half years. Among the respondents, those working in the retail sector (including both full-time and part-time employees) and in other sectors each took up 31%, while 29% were undertaking further studies. The remaining 8% of graduates were still considering their concrete paths ahead. For the position regarding the 4th cohort of DFS graduates, please refer to the reply in part (1) above.

(4) The DFS programme for the 5th and 6th cohorts commenced in September 2018 and September 2019, with an intake of 24 and 9 student-workers respectively. The number of student-workers admitted is lower than that of the first three cohorts. We believe that the continuous drop in the overall number of Secondary Six graduates (the number of candidates sitting for the Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education Examination has dropped by 29% in 2019 when compared with 2014) and availability of other opportunities for further studies and employment partly account for the drop in admissions. We will continue to work with VTC and HKRMA to strengthen the publicity on the Pilot Scheme and enhance the programme content and its attractiveness, so as to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1145

provide graduates with a clear articulation ladder for further studies and career advancement, with a view to enhancing the retail industry's professional service standards.

Statistics on employees' salaries

16. MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Chinese): President, regarding each and all of the selected industry sections listed in the table below, will the Government inform this Council of the following information on middle-level managerial and professional employees in each year of 2017 and 2018: (i) the Nominal Salary Index (A), (ii) the Real Salary Index (A), (iii) the Nominal Salary Index (B), (iv) the Real Salary Index (B), and (v) the number of employed persons (using the first quarter of 2004 as the base period)?

Selected industry section 2017 2018 (i) (ii) Manufacturing, electricity and gas supply (iii) (iv) (v) (i) (ii) Building and construction and related trades (iii) (iv) (v) (i) (ii) Import/export, wholesale and retail trades (iii) (iv) (v) (i) (ii) Transportation, storage, communications and travel agencies (iii) (iv) (v) (i) (ii) Financing and insurance (iii) (iv) (v) 1146 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Selected industry section 2017 2018 (i) (ii) All selected industry sections (iii) (iv) (v)

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Chinese): President, our response to various parts of the question is provided below:

(1) The nominal salary indices (A), real salary indices (A), nominal salary indices (B), real salary indices (B), and number of employed persons ("NEP") for middle-level managerial and professional employees in each and all of the selected industry sections in Hong Kong from 2017 to 2018 are set out in Annex 1.

(2) The nominal indices of payroll per person engaged, real indices of payroll per person engaged, and NEP in each and all of the selected industry sections from 2017 to 2018 are set out in Annex 2.

Annex 1

Nominal and real salary indices (A) ("NSI(A)" and RSI(A))(1)(2), nominal and real salary indices (B) ("NSI(B)" and RSI(B))(1)(2), and NEP(3) for middle-level managerial and professional employees in each and all of the selected industry sections

(June 2004=100(4)) Selected industry section June 2017 June 2018 Manufacturing, electricity and gas supply NSI(A) 138.1 142.8 RSI(A) 97.7 98.8 NSI(B) 157.2 164.7 RSI(B) 111.3 113.9 NEP(5) 26 700 23 400 Building, construction and related trades NSI(A) 173.8 181.6 RSI(A) 123.0 125.7 NSI(B) 217.1 229.9 RSI(B) 153.7 159.1 NEP(6) 43 700 39 300 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1147

Selected industry section June 2017 June 2018 Import/export, wholesale and retail trades NSI(A) 145.7 150.2 RSI(A) 103.1 104.0 NSI(B) 163.1 170.1 RSI(B) 115.4 117.7 NEP 186 400 177 100 Transportation, storage, communications and NSI(A) 140.5 145.6 travel agencies RSI(A) 99.5 100.7 NSI(B) 173.2 181.2 RSI(B) 122.6 125.4 NEP(7) 98 500 100 700 Financing and insurance NSI(A) 154.4 159.7 RSI(A) 109.3 110.5 NSI(B) 182.5 191.6 RSI(B) 129.1 132.6 NEP 109 100 113 000 All selected industry sections NSI(A) 150.4 155.6 RSI(A) 106.5 107.7 NSI(B) 177.0 185.6 RSI(B) 125.3 128.5 NEP(8) 464 500 453 400

Notes:

(1) Salary indices reflect changes in basic wage, and other regular and guaranteed allowances and bonuses.

(2) Real salary indices are obtained by deflating nominal salary indices by the Consumer Price Index (C).

(3) Figures refer to NEP engaged in occupations of managers, administrators and professionals in the second quarter of the respective years. NEP includes persons aged 15 and over who have been at work for pay or profit during the seven days before enumeration or who have had formal job attachment. Apart from employees, employers, self-employed persons, unpaid family workers and persons who were on leave/holiday during the seven days before enumeration are also included. Government employees are, however, excluded.

(4) As the reference periods of the salary indices are June of the respective years, June 2004 is adopted as the base period for the salary indices shown in the table.

(5) Figures refer to NEP in the manufacturing industry.

(6) Figures refer to NEP in the construction industry.

(7) Figures refer to NEP in the transportation, storage, postal and courier services, and information and communications industry.

1148 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

(8) NEP in individual selected industry sections may not add up to the total due to rounding.

Source: Survey of Salaries and Employee Benefits-Managerial and Professional Employees (Excluding Top Management) and General Household Survey, Census and Statistics Department

Annex 2

Nominal and real indices of payroll per person engaged ("NPI" and "RPI")(1)(2), and NEP(3) in each and all of the selected industry sections

(First Quarter, 2004=100) Fourth Fourth Selected industry section Quarter Quarter 2017 2018 Manufacturing NPI 136.4 141.8 RPI 94.0 95.3 NEP 106 300 102 300 Sewerage, waste management and remediation NPI 219.1 228.1 activities RPI 151.0 153.2 NEP(6) 3 100 4 800 Import/export and wholesale trades NPI 147.1 151.2 RPI 101.4 101.5 NEP 451 400 422 300 Retail trade NPI 179.4 184.1 RPI 123.6 123.6 NEP 336 600 327 400 Transportation, storage, postal and courier NPI 149.1 156.2 services RPI 102.7 104.9 NEP 312 300 310 100 Accommodation(4) and food service activities NPI 163.8 173.1 RPI 112.9 116.3 NEP 293 700 294 500 Information and communications NPI 142.4 147.2 RPI 98.2 98.9 NEP 133 800 131 000 Financial and insurance activities NPI 174.9 180.8 RPI 120.5 121.4 NEP 265 600 272 100 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1149

Fourth Fourth Selected industry section Quarter Quarter 2017 2018 Real estate activities NPI 152.9 159.1 RPI 105.3 106.9 NEP 151 200 149 800 Professional and business services NPI 169.8 178.0 RPI 117.0 119.5 NEP 339 000 346 300 Social and personal services NPI 136.3 140.2 RPI 93.9 94.2 NEP 592 200 623 200 All selected industry sections(5) NPI 155.8 161.6 RPI 107.4 108.5 NEP 2 994 300 2 997 400

Notes:

(1) Indices of payroll per person engaged reflect changes in basic wage, regular and guaranteed allowances and bonuses, and other irregular payments to workers such as discretionary bonuses and overtime allowance.

(2) Real indices of payroll per person engaged are obtained by deflating nominal indices of payroll per person engaged by the Composite Consumer Price Index.

(3) NEP includes persons aged 15 and over who have been at work for pay or profit during the seven days before enumeration or who have had formal job attachment. Apart from employees, employers, self-employed persons, unpaid family workers and persons who were on leave/holiday during the seven days before enumeration are also included. Government employees are, however, excluded.

(4) Accommodation services cover hotels, guesthouses, boarding houses and other establishments providing short-term accommodation.

(5) Refers to all industry sections covered by the payroll enquiry of the Labour Earnings Survey, including the mining and quarrying industry and the electricity and gas supply industry, the statistics of which are not separately shown.

(6) Includes NEP in water supply activities.

Source: Labour Earnings Survey and General Household Survey, Census and Statistics Department

1150 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Urgent applications for search warrants

17. MRS REGINA IP (in Chinese): President, since June this year, scenes of members of the public taking to the street to demonstrate have been occurred time and again. During the demonstrations, some masked demonstrators committed serious crimes, including arson, vandalising public facilities and shops, and hurling petrol bombs at police officers. In order to restore public order, the Government announced on 4 October this year the introduction of the Prohibition on Face Covering Regulation to ban the use of facial covering that is likely to prevent identification in unlawful or unauthorized assemblies, public meetings and public processions. On the other hand, it has been reported that earlier on, the Police called, one after another, several duty magistrates outside office hours for making an urgent application for a warrant to search the residence of a demonstrator who had been shot and arrested. However, the magistrates did not answer the calls, hung up the phone, and even rejected the application on grounds of "no urgency". In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether it knows if the Chief Magistrate has issued guidelines to the duty magistrates setting out the criteria, evidential requirement and considerations in respect of vetting and approval of urgent applications for search warrants; if the Chief Magistrate has, of the details; if not, whether he will expeditiously formulate such guidelines;

(2) given that although the Police may seek judicial review on a magistrate's decision of rejecting the issuance of a search warrant, the relevant procedure is time-consuming and resource-draining, whether the authorities will discuss with the Judiciary the establishment of a more convenient and expeditious review mechanism; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;

(3) whether it knows if the Judiciary has put in place a mechanism to ensure that the magistrates will vet and approve urgent applications for search warrants in a professional and impartial manner; if the Judiciary has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that, and whether the Judiciary will consider establishing such a mechanism; and

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1151

(4) of the respective numbers of urgent applications (i) made by the Police and (ii) granted during the period from 4 to 13 October this year, for search warrants for investigation into offences related to demonstrations?

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Chinese): President, the Government has consulted the Judiciary on the questions raised. According to the information provided by the Judiciary, the Government's reply is as follows:

(1) The Judiciary should like to stress that all magistrates deal with applications for search warrants from the Police strictly in accordance with the law, having regard to the facts and particulars presented before them by the applicants who are individual Police officers. While each case would have to be considered on its own merits, considerations usually relevant to the magistrates' consideration in processing the applications include whether the applicant Police officer is able to provide full particulars of the application; whether he/she has personal knowledge of the facts of the application and is in a position to swear to the truth of the matters stated in support of the application and provide satisfactory answers to questions raised by the magistrates on such matters; whether, for application made outside office hours, he/she is able to provide reasons to support the urgency of such application; and whether the information disclosed would give rise to an offence, etc.

The Judiciary attaches great importance to the proper and efficient administration of justice. It will continue to review from time to time the administrative arrangements for the handling of applications for search warrants by magistrates, with a view to making improvements where required. Where matters relating to the administration of justice are drawn to the Judiciary's attention, these will always be treated seriously and dealt with appropriately.

(2) When handling applications for search warrants, the magistrates are discharging their statutory functions under the law. Under the established legal framework, their decisions are subject to judicial review. As such, the Judiciary does not consider it appropriate to 1152 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

have any separate mechanism outside the existing legal framework to handle any dissatisfaction over the outcome of applications for search warrants.

(3) and (4)

At present, four magistrates are put on a two-week duty roster for handling applications for search warrants outside office hours. The Judiciary currently only captures the number of search warrants granted, but not rejected, by the duty magistrates outside office hours for all types of cases, including those relating to the recent protests. During the duty period from 23 September to 7 October 2019 (including 6 non-working days during a 15-day period), the number of search warrants granted was 52. During the period from 8 to 20 October 2019 (including 4 non-working days during a 13-day period), the number of search warrants granted was 18.

The Chief Magistrate will from time to time review the arrangement for handling applications for search warrant made outside office hours, and may, where appropriate, consult the law enforcement agencies. The Judiciary will consider collating statistics and related matters on rejected applications.

Regulating the sale of pharmaceutical products

18. MS CHAN HOI-YAN (in Chinese): President, under the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance (Cap. 138), only "authorized sellers of poisons" may carry on a business of retail sale of pharmaceutical products containing poisons (including those in Parts 1 and 2 of the Poisons List), and only registered premises of such type of sellers ("pharmacies") may use Chinese names comprising the term "藥 房". Apart from such type of sellers, operators of shops holding a "listed seller of poisons" licence ("medicine stores") may also sell pharmaceutical products containing poisons in Part 2 of the Poisons List. Some pharmacists have relayed that retail shops with Chinese names comprising terms such as "藥 坊", "藥 店" and "藥 粧" ("other drugstores") have mushroomed in recent years. While a majority of those stores are not operated by the aforementioned two types of sellers, their names easily lead members of the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1153 public and tourists into mistaking them for being authorized to sell controlled pharmaceutical products, resulting in a lack of protection for consumers' rights and interests. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of (i) the respective year-end numbers of pharmacies and medicine stores and (ii) the respective numbers of pharmacies and medicine stores which were opened and closed down, in each of the past 10 years (with a breakdown by District Council district);

(2) of the respective numbers of complaints against pharmacies and medicine stores received by the Department of Health in each of the past five years;

(3) whether it has compiled statistics on the current number of other drugstores; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that and the difficulty involved;

(4) of the number of prosecutions instituted in each of the past five years by the authorities against operators of retails shops selling medicines, with a breakdown by type (i.e. pharmacies, medicine stores and other drugstores) and the offence involved; and

(5) whether it will consider amending the legislation to step up the regulation of other drugstores, including prohibiting them from using Chinese names comprising the character "藥", so as to avoid causing confusion to members of the public and tourists; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, under the Pharmacy and Poisons Ordinance (Cap. 138) ("the Ordinance") and its subsidiary legislation, the Pharmacy and Poisons Regulation (Cap. 138A), pharmaceutical products must meet the requirements of safety, efficacy and quality, and must be registered with the Pharmacy and Poisons Board of Hong Kong ("the Board") before they can be sold or distributed in Hong Kong. The Department of Health ("DH"), in accordance with relevant legislation, adopts a risk-based approach in laying down a set of comprehensive and stringent control measures to regulate the manufacture, import, wholesale and retail of pharmaceutical products.

1154 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Having consulted DH, reply to the question raised by Ms CHAN Hoi-yan is as follows:

(1) The number of licences (as at the end of each year), new licences and applications for withdrawing licences of Authorized Sellers of Poisons ("ASP"), commonly known as "pharmacies", and Listed Sellers of Poisons ("LSP"), commonly known as "medicine companies", in the past 10 years are as follows:

Number of Number of Number of new applications for Year licences licences withdrawing licences ASP LSP ASP LSP ASP LSP 2010 546 3 499 67 272 38 170 2011 557 3 572 47 283 36 211 2012 570 3 827 45 377 32 162 2013 597 3 907 106 701 79 621 2014 605 3 951 39 311 31 267 2015 607 4 012 34 277 32 216 2016 604 3 937 29 231 32 306 2017 614 3 937 37 258 27 258 2018 641 3 937 50 264 23 264 2019 665 4 299 48 545 24 183 (January to September)

DH does not have the breakdown of number of licences of ASP and LSP by District Council districts. As at end September 2019, the number of ASP and LSP on Hong Kong Island, in Kowloon and in the New Territories are as follows:

New Hong Kong Kowloon Total Territories ASP 128 261 276 665 LSP 828 1 513 1 958 4 299

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1155

(2) and (4)

DH conducts surprise inspections of premises of ASP and LSP, as well as test purchases of controlled medicines, with a view to monitoring their compliance with the law and respective code of practice.

Should there be any contravention of the relevant legislation by drug retailers, DH will take follow-up actions immediately and, on the advice of the Department of Justice, institute prosecution when there is sufficient evidence. Convictions by licensed retailers would be submitted to the Board for consideration of disciplinary action. Convictions by ASP usually involve illegal sale of Part 1 poisons and prescription medicines; whereas convictions by LSP or other premises usually involve illegal possession and sale of unregistered pharmaceutical products and Part 1 poisons.

The number of enforcement actions by DH against ASP and LSP, and relevant complaints received by DH in the past five years are as follows:

Number of Number of Number of convicted Number of inspections test purchases cases complaints Year Other ASP LSP ASP LSP ASP LSP ASP LSP premises 2015 1 214 7 977 4 136 3 008 24 3 5 86 36 2016 1 209 7 956 3 955 4 021 15 4 4 82 27 2017 1 220 7 874 4 329 3 229 13 5 4 103 34 2018 1 212 7 814 4 194 3 350 14 5 3 100 22 2019 759 5 538 3 036 2 460 10 6 7 58 17 (January to September)

(3) Under the Ordinance, only persons authorized by the Board as ASP are allowed to conduct relevant retail business of selling poisons (including poisons listed in Part 1 and Part 2 of the Poisons List at the Schedule 10 to the Regulation). In addition, persons who wish to conduct relevant retail business of selling poisons listed in Part 2 of the Poisons List must obtain a licence of LSP issued by the Board.

1156 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

The Ordinance stipulates that terms such as "藥 房", "pharmacy", "dispensary" and "drug-store" used in connection with premises will be deemed to be calculated to suggest that such premises are premises registered under the Ordinance as premises of an ASP and are under the control of a registered pharmacist. The Ordinance restricts the use of the title "藥 房" that can only be used for premises registered by an ASP. Failure to do so may constitute an offence. Upon conviction of this offence, a person is liable to a maximum penalty of a fine of $100,000 and imprisonment for two years.

Retailers of registered pharmaceutical products that contain uncontrolled ingredients do not require a licence. DH does not have figures on these premises.

(5) Although retailers of registered pharmaceutical products that contain uncontrolled ingredients do not require a licence, DH has implemented the following measures to regulate medicine retailers based on existing legislation and to enhance public education:

(1) DH has an established mechanism in place to conduct test purchases at drug retailers, including ASP, LSP and other retail premises, to monitor their compliance on illegal sale of controlled drugs. Prosecutions would be initiated if contraventions of the laws are found;

(2) if DH receives information suggesting that someone is suspected to have violated the Ordinance and its subsidiary legislation (including the suspected illegal sale of medicines, the use of restricted title "pharmacy" or the display of the prescribed pharmacy logo), investigation will be carried out immediately. Joint operation with the Hong Kong Police Force and the Hong Kong Customs and Excise Department will be conducted when necessary;

(3) to cope with the increasing number of retail premises engaged in the retail sale of drugs, DH has stepped up its efforts in publicity and education to enhance public understanding of different types of drug retailers. Over 10 000 copies of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1157

education pamphlets on drug retailers and registered pharmaceutical products have been published for distribution to inbound tourists through the Hong Kong Tourism Board and the Travel Industry Council of Hong Kong, and to arriving passengers through sea, land and air control points; and

(4) the website of the Drug Office of DH has listed out the name and address of all licensees (including ASP and LSP) for public information. The website also provides a search engine for members of the public to enquire if a premises holds a relevant licence.

Handling of staff complaints by the Hospital Authority

19. DR PIERRE CHAN (in Chinese): President, at present, upon receipt of a staff complaint involving matters of a particular hospital or cluster, the Hospital Authority ("HA") will, having regard to the nature of the complaint, refer the case to the hospital or cluster concerned for handling, namely conducting investigation and reverting to the complainant on the result. If the complainant is not satisfied with the investigation result, he/she may lodge an appeal to the respective Cluster Chief Executive or Hospital Governing Committee ("the second-tier handling procedure"). If the complainant is still dissatisfied with the appeal result, he/she may further lodge an appeal to the Staff Appeals Committee under the HA Board ("the third-tier handling procedure") for a final decision. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) whether it knows, in each of the past three years, (i) the total number of staff complaints received by HA, and (ii) the respective total numbers of appeal cases received and allowed under the second-tier and the third-tier handling procedures, with a tabulated breakdown by the public hospital, the grade and the rank to which the complainants belonged;

(2) whether it will ask HA to formulate a workplace anti-bullying policy, specify the bullying behaviours which may be subject to disciplinary actions, and set up a mechanism for handling complaints lodged 1158 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

against this type of behaviours; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;

(3) whether it will enact legislation to (i) confer on HA's trade unions the right to collective bargaining, (ii) provide that HA's staff members may invite trade union representatives to accompany them to attend the hearings for handling their complaints, and (iii) provide that the members of the Staff Appeals Committee must comprise healthcare professionals, as well as representatives of staff and trade unions; and

(4) regarding the two cases of the New Territories East Cluster, mentioned earlier on by the Hospital Authority Workers General Union in its public letter of 22 October 2019, which involved suspected infringement of staff's privacy (i.e. the circulation of a nurse's sick leave certificate without the consent of the nurse, and covert surveillance on the ward-round time of and the numbers of patients attended by two medical practitioners), whether the Government will ask HA to (i) give an account in public of its handling of these two complaints (including the justifications for determining that the complaints were unsubstantiated), and (ii) put in place improvement measures?

SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, in consultation with the Labour Department and the Hospital Authority ("HA"), my reply to the various parts of the question raised by Dr Pierre CHAN is as follows:

(1) and (2)

HA has put in place a mechanism to handle staff complaints. If an HA staff member has dissatisfaction or feeling of injustice about the treatment received from other staff or the management, he/she may lodge a complaint to his/her immediate supervisor, the Head of Department, Hospital Chief Executive ("HCE") or Head of Human Resources ("HHR") as appropriate. The recipient of the complaint will then initiate an investigation having regard to the circumstances LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1159 of the case. The investigation should normally be completed with a reply issued to the complainant within three months after receipt of the complaint. If this cannot be achieved, a written notification should be sent to the complainant.

If the complainant is still dissatisfied after going through the above procedures, he/she may lodge an appeal under a three-tier staff complaint and appeal mechanism as set out below:

(1) The complainant may lodge an appeal to HCE or HHR.

(2) If the appellant still feels aggrieved after HCE or HHR has decided on the appeal, and wishes to appeal that decision, he/she may appeal to the Cluster Chief Executive ("CCE"), Hospital Governing Committee ("HGC") or the HA Chief Executive as appropriate. In doing so, the appellant should state whether he/she has fresh grounds of appeal.

(3) If the staff member is still dissatisfied after exhausting all of the above channels, he/she may lodge an appeal to the Staff Appeals Committee ("SAC") under the HA Board. In doing so, the staff member should state whether he/she has fresh grounds of appeal.

In 2016, 2017 and 2018, public hospitals received 213, 213 and 205 staff complaints respectively. Among them, 18 cases were appealed to the second tier (i.e. CCE, HGC or the HA Chief Executive) and five cases to the third tier (i.e. SAC under the HA Board) under the established staff complaint and appeal mechanism. All these 23 appeal cases were found unsubstantiated. Breakdown of the staff complaint/appeal cases by cluster and grade are tabulated at the Annex.

Generally speaking, the committee responsible for handling the appeal will, depending on the case, recommend to the management where improvements are necessary, such as clarifying relevant guidelines/policies and enhancing staff communication.

1160 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Under HA's existing procedures, SAC's decision shall be HA's final decision. Apart from lodging complaints through HA's staff complaint mechanism, an HA staff may also lodge complaints to relevant regulatory bodies, such as the Equal Opportunities Commission, depending on the nature of the complaints. HA will take appropriate follow-up actions.

HA is committed to promoting mutual respect and harmony in the workplace. As clearly stated in the Code of Conduct of the Human Resources Policies Manual, "mutual respect" is HA's core value and staff will be provided with relevant training. The HA Head Office, clusters and hospital management will also implement various measures, including counselling frontline heads, holding mediation meetings, making posting arrangements and taking disciplinary actions, to solve staff issues and work-related problems. The HA Head Office has set up a "Work Group on Building Workplace Harmony", comprising members from different clusters and grades, to advise clusters and hospitals on policies, measures and publicity for further promoting harmony and mutual respect in the workplace.

(3) The Government has all along been encouraging and promoting voluntary collective bargaining on issues related to employment terms and conditions between employers and employees or their respective staff organizations (including trade unions) to resolve differences. The Government believes that any consultation or negotiation should be premised upon a voluntary basis for it to be meaningful, hence be conducive to reaching consensus and resolving disputes. The Government has no plan to compulsorily require employers and trade unions to enter into collective bargaining by legislation.

HA has all along attached great importance to maintaining good communication with trade unions and staff. It maintains regular communication with staff and discusses issues of their concern with them through the Staff Group Consultative Committees ("SGCCs") of six respective staff groups (including doctors, nurses and supporting staff groups). SGCCs comprise representatives directly elected by staff members of the respective groups and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1161

representatives from staff associations/trade unions that meet the membership requirement. The HA management also meets with trade unions to enhance mutual understanding when necessary.

It has been HA's policy that a complainant (and respondent) may invite an HA staff member (including staff on different conditions of employment) to accompany him/her at investigation meetings. To ensure the fairness of the investigation as a whole, the accompanying person shall not speak in the meetings and shall commit to keeping all information confidential. Provided that the representative is an HA staff member and is invited by the complainant or respondent concerned to accompany him/her at the meetings, HA will allow a trade union representative to serve as the accompanying person. To facilitate the smooth and efficient conduct of the investigation, it is also the responsibility of the investigator or panel to provide an environment for free expression of views.

For optimal performance of its roles and exercise of powers, the HA Board has established 11 functional committees, including SAC. Members of these committees are appointed by the HA Board. SAC has four members. They are either members of the HA Board or coopted members, and are responsible for considering appeals from staff members who have raised their grievances through the internal complaint channels and are not satisfied with the decision made. SAC would submit annual reports to the HA Board.

(4) Upon completion of investigation, HA has notified the two complainants of the outcome and justifications in writing. Details of individual staff complaints, however, are not to be disclosed.

Regarding the case concerning sick leave certificate, the investigation panel set up by the hospital has recommended that the Central Nursing Department of the hospital strengthen internal communication, and remind the department to carefully handle and file the documents relating to personal data.

As regards the case of the alleged monitoring by the hospital on the time spent in wards and the number of cases seen by doctors, SAC recommended that the management should ensure that there is a proper authorization process and documentation when collecting relevant information.

1162 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Annex

Staff complaints/appeals received by HA in the past three years (breakdown by cluster and staff group of complainant)

Number of cases received by Number of complaints# Number of appeals SAC under the HA Board

uster

Cluster

Office 2016 Total Total Total Head Office Head Office Head Kowloon East Cluster East Kowloon Cluster East Kowloon Cluster East Kowloon Kowloon West Cluster Kowloon West Cl Kowloon West Cluster Hong Kong East Cluster East Kong Hong Cluster East Kong Hong Cluster East Kong Hong Hong Kong West West Kong Hong Cluster West Kong Hong Cluster West Kong Hong Kowloon Central Cluster Central Kowloon Cluster Central Kowloon Cluster Central Kowloon New Territories East Cluster New Territories East Cluster New Territories East Cluster New Territories West Cluster New Territories West Cluster New Territories West Cluster

Doctors Staff 0 3 0 1 0 0 2 0 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Group Nurses Staff 5 4 4 4 3 0 2 1 23 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 Group Allied Health 0 0 1 2 2 1 1 0 7 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 Professions Staff Group Supporting 3 6 4 6 13 7 2 0 41 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Staff Group Administrative 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Staff Group Supervisory, 4 3 0 0 2 1 1 0 11 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Clerical and General Staff Group Anonymous 28 9 20 6 31 12 9 7 122 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Total 41 25 29 19 51 22 17 9 213 1 0 2 2 0 0 0 0 5* 0 0 0 1 0 1^ 0 0 2*

Notes:

HA does not maintain information on numbers of complaints/appeals by hospital or by rank.

* All cases were found unsubstantiated.

# The figures include cases referred to external organizations such as the Police and the Independent Commission Against Corruption, etc. Once a case is referred to an external organization for handling, HA will suspend internal investigation. HA will review the case upon notification by the external organization or when the outcome of any legal proceedings is available.

^ The case was handled at the first and second tiers of the appeal mechanism in 2015 and was referred to SAC in 2016.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1163

Number of cases received by Number of complaints# Number of appeals SAC under the HA Board

Cluster

2017 East Cluster Total Total Total Head Office Head Office Head Office Kowloon East Cluster East Kowloon Cluster East Kowloon Cluster East Kowloon Kowloon West Cluster Kowloon West Cluster Kowloon West Cluster Hong Kong East Cluster East Kong Hong Cluster East Kong Hong Kong Hong Hong Kong West Cluster West Kong Hong Cluster West Kong Hong Cluster West Kong Hong Kowloon Central Cluster Central Kowloon Cluster Central Kowloon Cluster Central Kowloon New Territories East New Territories East Cluster New Territories East Cluster New Territories West Cluster New Territories West Cluster New Territories West Cluster Doctors Staff 3 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Group Nurses Staff 5 2 1 1 5 5 4 0 23 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 Group Allied Health 2 3 3 3 0 1 0 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 Professions Staff Group Supporting 6 2 8 3 5 4 5 0 33 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Staff Group Administrative 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Staff Group Supervisory, 5 4 1 3 1 1 1 0 16 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Clerical and General Staff Group Anonymous 28 12 24 7 11 15 14 9 120 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Total 49 23 37 17 22 29 24 12 213 0 2 1 2 0 0 0 0 5* 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 2*

Notes:

HA does not have maintain information on numbers of complaints/appeals by hospital or by rank.

* All cases were found unsubstantiated.

# The figures include cases referred to external organizations such as the Police and the Independent Commission Against Corruption, etc. Once a case is referred to an external organization for handling, HA will suspend internal investigation. HA will review the case upon notification by the external organization or when the outcome of any legal proceedings is available.

Number of cases received by Number of complaints# Number of appeals SAC under the HA Board

Cluster Cluster

2018 Total Total Total Head Office Head Office Head Office Kowloon East Cluster East Kowloon Cluster East Kowloon Cluster East Kowloon Kowloon West Cluster West Kowloon Kowloon West Cluster Hong Kong East Cluster East Kong Hong Cluster East Kong Hong Cluster East Kong Hong Hong Kong West West Kong Hong Cluster West Kong Hong Cluster West Kong Hong Kowloon Central Cluster Central Kowloon Cluster Central Kowloon Cluster Central Kowloon New Territories East Cluster New Territories East Cluster New Territories East Cluster New Territories West Cluster New Territories West Cluster New Territories West Cluster Doctors Staff 3 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 6 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Group 1164 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Number of cases received by Number of complaints# Number of appeals SAC under the HA Board

Cluster Cluster

2018 Total Total Total Head Office Head Office Head Office Kowloon East Cluster East Kowloon Cluster East Kowloon Cluster East Kowloon Kowloon West Cluster West Kowloon Kowloon West Cluster Hong Kong East Cluster East Kong Hong Cluster East Kong Hong Cluster East Kong Hong Hong Kong West West Kong Hong Cluster West Kong Hong Cluster West Kong Hong Kowloon Central Cluster Central Kowloon Cluster Central Kowloon Cluster Central Kowloon New Territories East Cluster New Territories East Cluster New Territories East Cluster New Territories West Cluster New Territories West Cluster New Territories West Cluster Nurses Staff 5 8 2 1 4 7 1 0 28 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Group Allied Health 4 1 2 0 2 3 1 0 13 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 Professions Staff Group Supporting 5 5 10 5 11 7 5 0 48 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Staff Group Administrative 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Staff Group Supervisory, 4 0 2 0 8 4 3 0 21 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Clerical and General Staff Group Anonymous 17 12 18 5 14 11 7 2 86 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Total 38 28 34 11 42 33 17 2 205 0 1 1 1 4 1 0 0 8* 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1*

Notes:

HA does not maintain information on numbers of complaints/appeals by hospital or by rank.

* All cases were found unsubstantiated.

# The figures include cases referred to external organizations such as the Police and the Independent Commission Against Corruption, etc. Once a case is referred to an external organization for handling, HA will suspend internal investigation. HA will review the case upon notification by the external organization or when the outcome of any legal proceedings is available.

Optimal use of government and private sites

20. MR TONY TSE (in Chinese): President, the Government has indicated in this year's Policy Address that it will review over 300 "Government, Institution or Community" sites with a total area of some 300 hectares currently earmarked for standalone public facility, and put forward concrete proposals for sites with no development plan, including developing multi‑purpose public facility buildings under a "single site, multiple use" model, developing residential projects and public facilities under a mixed development mode, etc. The Government will also assist non‑governmental organizations in optimizing their under‑utilized LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1165 sites, and facilitate, by providing support and introducing mixed residential, education and welfare uses, the redevelopment of the low‑rise buildings on such sites by the organizations concerned. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the details of each of the aforesaid over 300 sites, including the (i) location, (ii) area, (iii) existing use, and (iv) policy bureau or government department by which it is currently managed; regarding those sites which are currently left idle or put to temporary/short-term uses, since when they have been in their present status;

(2) of the timetable for the aforesaid review, and whether persons from the relevant professions other than those in the Government will participate in it;

(3) in cases where the public facilities involved in the sites that are intended to be developed under the "single site, multiple use" model are provided by more than one policy bureau or government department, which policy bureau or government department will be responsible for the relevant coordination work; and

(4) whether it will consider providing incentives to non‑governmental organizations so as to encourage them to redevelop their low‑rise buildings; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?

SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, a reply to Mr Tony TSE's question is as follows:

(1) Amongst the over 300 "Government, Institution or Community" ("GIC") sites involving a total area of more than 300 hectares earmarked for standalone public facilities mentioned in the Policy Address, more than 80% of these sites are located in rural and new town, with the remaining in different districts within Hong Kong Island and Kowloon. The site area varies, with about 30% of the sites occupying 3 000 sq m of land or less, about 40% of the sites occupying 3 001 to 10 000 sq m, and the remaining 30% occupying more than 10 000 sq m. For the sites with relatively large site area, 1166 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

they are mainly reserved for large-scale public facilities, such as sewage treatment works, service reservoir, water treatment works, desalination plant and district cooling system. In these some 300 hectares of land, about 120 hectares have been, where practicable and appropriate, used for temporary purposes including car parks under short term tenancies or site offices for public works projects, before the earmarked GIC facilities are implemented. The remaining 200 hectares of land not arranged for temporary uses mostly involve private land, slopes or vegetated unformed land. More details on the over 300 sites could be provided after we have confirmed with concerned bureaux/departments and if necessary, conducted site visits.

(2) Having regard to such factors as location, site area, surrounding environment and compatibility, we do not expect that all over 300 sites have the potential for joint user development, such as those reserved for hospitals, columbaria, reservoirs and sewage treatment facilities involving more than 100 hectares of land as the nature of these facilities may not be suitable for co-location with other facilities at the same site. Therefore, we will give priority to reviewing sites with greater potential of joint user development, including those reserved for schools/education, social welfare, public transport interchange, cultural and recreational facilities, which take up about half of the over 300 hectares. Developing such sites under the "single site, multiple use" model or mixed development mode will be explored. We will make our best effort to complete the review of the priority sites by mid-2021. The review exercise will be led by the Planning Department, with assistance from concerned bureaux/departments.

(3) Under the "single site, multiple use" model, the Government Property Agency will take up the role of central coordinator for projects involving considerable cross-department coordination, including identifying appropriate joint-user facilities with reference to local needs, coordination and resolution of different views among concerned departments, coordination of the priority of funding/programme, taking the lead in seeking the funding within the Government, and soliciting support from the local communities and the Legislative Council to the projects.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1167

(4) The Government will invite the Urban Renewal Authority ("URA") to, having regard to its experience of providing facilitating services to private building owners, offer consultancy and facilitating services to non-governmental organizations ("NGOs"). The preliminary plan is that NGOs intending to redevelop community facilities on their sites and to take the redevelopment opportunity to introduce mixed residential, education and welfare uses under the "singe site, multiple use" model may put forward their proposals to URA under a new mechanism. URA will act as a consultant by conducting a preliminary assessment of the development potential of the subject site (e.g. whether the plot ratio has been fully utilized), examining whether there are other redevelopment projects in the vicinity that may create synergy with NGO's redevelopment, and coordinating comments of relevant Government departments, and then put forward possible redevelopment options to the NGO for consideration. The implementation details of the mechanism (e.g. commencement date for receiving applications, how to set priorities and the amount of consultancy fee, etc.) would be further considered by URA.

Railway services and police operations during demonstrations

21. MR GARY FAN (in Chinese): President, since 9 June this year, a number of large-scale public meetings and processions ("public events") relating to the "anti-extradition to China" movement have taken place in Hong Kong, with some of such events turning into confrontations between the Police and members of the public. Some police officers used force and arrested demonstrators within the precincts of the properties of the MTR Corporation Limited ("MTRCL") and MTR stations. It is learnt that on many occasions before the commencement of public events, MTRCL closed a number of MTR stations situated in the vicinity of the places where public events were held, and suspended train services. MTRCL also deployed trains to transport police officers between different MTR stations for discharging duties. Moreover, on many occasions, MTRCL closed MTR stations and stopped train services during normal train service hours. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the following details regarding police officers discharging duties within the precincts of MTR stations/MTRCL properties during public events since 9 June this year:

1168 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

(i) the maximum level of force used by the police officers, and the number of times/quantity of each type of weapons (e.g. batons, pepper sprays, tear gas rounds, bean bag rounds, rubber bullets and firearms) used (with a tabulated breakdown by date of the public event), and

(ii) the number of persons arrested (with a tabulated breakdown by date of public event, age, gender, alleged offence and location of the arrest), and the number of persons injured (with a tabulated breakdown by date of the public event, age, gender and the location where the injury was sustained);

(2) whether it knows the following details regarding the closure of MTR stations/MTRCL properties during normal train service hours since 9 June this year (set out such information by date in a table):

(i) the closure hours,

(ii) the name of the MTR stations/properties,

(iii) the reasons for the closure, and

(iv) the government department(s) or organization(s) that made the decision on the closure;

(3) whether it has assessed if MTRCL has contravened the requirement in section 9 of the Mass Transit Railway Ordinance (Cap. 556) (i.e. that MTRCL must maintain a proper and efficient service in accordance with Cap. 556 and the operating agreement) by closing MTR stations/properties during normal train service hours which has caused travel inconvenience to a great number of members of the public; if it has assessed and the outcome is in the affirmative, whether it will ask MTRCL to make improvements; if the assessment outcome is in the negative, of the reasons for that;

(4) of the following details regarding police officers entering and exiting the MTR stations/MTRCL properties concerned for discharging duties during the closure hours of the MTR stations/properties mentioned in (2) (set out such information by date in a table):

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1169

(i) entry and exit time,

(ii) the name of the MTR stations/properties,

(iii) the number of police officers,

(iv) whether MTRCL deployed trains to transport police officers; if so, of the names of the departure and destination stations, and

(v) details of the duties discharged by the police officers; and

(5) whether, during the closure hours of the MTR stations/MTRCL properties mentioned in (2), there were off-duty or plain-clothed police officers or police officers disguised as demonstrators discharging duties inside the MTR stations/properties concerned; if so, of the details?

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, the continuous large-scale public order events taking place since this June have had an unprecedented impact on the services of the Mass Transit Railway ("MTR"). MTR stations were often targeted for destruction in violent protests over recent months. Ticket machines, add-value machines, entry/exit gates, CCTV cameras, fire services installations etc. were vandalized. Petrol bombs were hurled at and fires set to the stations and their entrances/exits, causing significant damage to MTR property and posing serious threat to the safety of MTR passengers, staff and other people on the scene.

As at 29 October, among the 93 heavy rail and 68 light rail stations, a cumulative total of 85 heavy rail and 60 light rail stations were vandalized, involving numerous facilities such as entry/exit gates (about 1 600 times), ticket machines, Octopus add-value machines/enquiry processors and Customer Service Centre facilities (960 times), Octopus fare processors on light rail platforms (915 times), CCTV cameras (about 1 100 times), escalators (75 times), lifts (about 50 times), glass panels at station entrances/exits (about 1 060 times) and roller shutters of station entrances/exits (130 times). Frontline staff of the MTR Corporation Limited ("MTRCL") also suffered from harassment and injuries, making it extremely difficult for the Corporation to maintain safe and stable railway services.

1170 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Railway is the backbone of Hong Kong's public transport system and railway safety is of utmost importance. The Mass Transit Railway Ordinance (Cap. 556) stipulates that MTRCL shall maintain a "proper and efficient" service at all times during the franchise period in accordance with the Ordinance and the Operating Agreement. The latter was entered into in 2007 between the Government and MTRCL to regulate the operation and safety management of the railway, including setting targets for MTR train service frequencies and the service levels of station facilities under normal daily circumstances. That said, in order for MTRCL to provide railway service, the railway itself should first and foremost be able to operate safely. In response to recent acts of vandalism of station facilities which have disrupted normal train operation and threatened the safety of MTR staff and passengers, MTRCL, as a responsible operator, must conduct comprehensive and thorough risk assessments in conjunction with government departments before the Corporation can ascertain that train operation can continue safely. Thus, on the premise that railway safety should always be ensured, the Government considers that MTRCL's decisions to make train service adjustments or even close certain stations obviously do not constitute a failure to discharge the responsibility of the Corporation as stipulated in the Mass Transit Railway Ordinance.

To tie in with railway and community developments, the regular service hours for MTR railway lines and stations have been from approximately 5:00 am to approximately 1:00 am. However, from June this year onwards, it has become necessary for MTRCL to temporarily close MTR stations or suspend train service in some cases in the light of public order events or incidents relating to law and order. The details are at Annex. MTRCL and relevant government departments (including the Transport and Housing Bureau, Transport Department and Police Force) has closely monitored the situation of public order events and conducted risk assessment in order to implement appropriate measures to protect the safety of passengers, staff and the railway. In general, the major considerations are as below:

(i) In the light of the various large-scale public order events and uncooperative moments initiated by passengers since June, MTRCL has adjusted its train service, and close some of the entrances/exits or the whole stations upon communication with government departments and in the interest of safety so as to maintain railway service as far as possible. Subsequently, from July to October, as mentioned earlier, stations and railway facilities were vandalized, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1171

fire was set to the stations and MTR staff and passengers were attacked and harassed, all these posing threat to staff, passengers and railway safety. In response to such sudden and emergency situations, MTRCL must adjust its service within a short time (or even without prior notice), including bypassing certain stations, closing certain station entrances/exits or the whole station, suspending operation of the whole railway line when numerous stations were attacked, or even terminating service of the whole railway network early, in order to ensure the safety of passengers, staff and the railway;

(ii) In the light of the past public order events in the relevant districts, upon assessing the possible risk to MTR passenger, staff and station facilities, and after a comprehensive and thorough risk assessment by MTRCL and government departments, MTRCL has taken preventive measures, including temporary closure of certain stations, adjustment of train services, etc. Under these circumstances, MTRCL has endeavoured to announce the arrangements in advance so that passengers can prepare early for the trip;

(iii) As station facilities are gravely and continuously damaged, even though MTRCL's maintenance teams have conducted repair works overnight, some of the stations and facilities are still yet to be repaired. Moreover, many railway parts need to be reinstalled and tested upon manufactured and shipped to Hong Kong. If the facilities are damaged again, it will have a larger impact on station operations. Taking into account the actual condition of the railway system and upon conducting risk assessment, MTRCL has decided to end service early (except Airport Express) since early October so as to allowing time for repair and reducing risks.

The above are some of the major considerations. However, as the scale of each public order event, the number of stations being attacked, the distribution, scope and condition of damages, the actual environment of the stations and that in the vicinity differ, coupled with sudden incidents occurred on site which create chaos, all these require immediate response and thus it cannot be generalized. That said, it should be emphasized that all the decisions of government departments and MTRCL were made upon careful consideration, with the aim of ensuring the safety of passengers, staff and the railway. MTRCL has made the 1172 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 best endeavour to provide services to the public under safe and practical condition. Government departments and MTRCL will, in the interest of safety, continue to assess the risk of upcoming public order events, so as to adopt suitable operational arrangement for the public.

As for the housing estates and shopping malls managed by MTRCL, the safety of their occupants, customers and staff members of the management offices has always been the prime concern. In the light of the recent public order events, many shopping malls and shops in the territory did not open for business on certain dates in the interest of safety. As quite some shops inside MTR shopping malls suffered from various degree of damages during public order events, having regard to the safety of customers, shop operators, staff and the public, as a matter of emergency and for safety reason, MTRCL also decided that some of its shopping malls should close temporarily for certain hours or on certain dates. For instance, the Telford Plaza, Citylink, Elements and Maritime Square were temporarily closed on 1 October, and they were again closed on 5 October to 6 October along with PopCorn and Luk Yeung Galleria. During the course of large-scale public order events, the estate management offices concerned will maintain close communication with the owners' committees and occupants of the estates should there be any event taking place nearby.

Regarding the Police's enforcement actions taken within the precincts of MTR stations or MTRCL properties as raised by Member, having looked into the matter with the Security Bureau, my reply is as follows. It is the Police's statutory duty to maintain public safety and public order. When situations such as illegal road blockage, paralysed traffic, unlawful assemblies and violent charging of police cordon lines occur, such that public order and public safety are severely threatened, the Police will, upon making risk assessment, take appropriate actions to ensure public safety and public order.

The Police have strict guidelines on the use of force. Police officers may use minimum force as appropriate only when such an action is absolutely necessary and there are no other means to accomplish the lawful duty. Police officers shall give warnings prior to the use of such force as far as circumstances permit, while the person(s) involved shall be given every opportunity, where practicable, to obey police orders before force is used. Once the purpose of using force is achieved, the Police will cease to use force.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1173

Under section 54 of the Police Force Ordinance (Cap. 232), if a police officer finds any person in any street or other public place who acts in a suspicious manner, or whom he reasonably suspects of having committed, being about to commit or intending to commit any offence, the police officer may stop the person and demand him to produce proof of his identity for inspection, and search him for anything that may present a danger to the police officer or that is likely to be of value to investigation when it is considered necessary. If a police officer reasonably suspects that any person is likely to commit an offence in a public place (including MTR premises), the Police have the power to search that person.

Having regard to the operational needs, the Police will deploy suitable manpower to take all practical and legitimate measures to prevent and detect crimes and to maintain public safety and public order. As regards to the enforcement work in railway areas, the Police have set up the Railway District to maintain railway network's safety and order. The Police do not maintain a breakdown of persons arrested in MTR stations and MTR premises. As the other information requested in the question involves operational deployments and details, it is therefore inappropriate to make them public or else the efficacy of Police operations may be undermined.

Annex

Stations & Train Services affected by Public Order Events (POEs) and Vandalism of Station Facilities Since June 2019 (Summary) (As of 2 November 2019)

Station Closure/Train Service Suspension Date due to POEsNote 12 June (Wednesday) Due to POEs, Admiralty Station was closed and trains bypassed that station. 16 June (Sunday) Due to POEs, Chai Wan-bound Island Line trains bypassed Causeway Bay and Tin Hau stations. 1 July (Monday) Due to POEs, Wan Chai and Central stations were closed temporarily and trains once bypassed these two stations. 1174 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Station Closure/Train Service Suspension Date due to POEsNote 14 July (Sunday) Due to POEs, East Rail Line in both directions once bypassed Sha Tin Station. 21 July (Sunday) Violence occurred at the concourse and platform of Yuen Long Station. West Rail Line in both directions bypassed Yuen Long Station and the station was closed. Facilities of Yuen Long Station were vandalized including the roller shutter of entrance/exit, entry/exit gates, etc. Fire safety equipment was improperly used in station as well. 5 August (Monday) In the morning, many cases of passengers activating Passenger Alarm Devises on trains or Platform Emergency Plungers on platforms, obstructing train doors and platform screen doors as well as obstructing trains departing from platforms were recorded, resulting in severe disruption to train services of the Kwun Tong, Tsuen Wan, Island, Tseung Kwan O, East Rail, West Rail and Tung Chung lines as well as the Airport Express. Services in various sections of the railway network were suspended until noon time. 11 August (Sunday) Conflicts occurred at the concourse of Kwai Fong Station. Some people damaged the station facilities. Tsuen Wan Line trains in both directions bypassed Kwai Fong Station and the station was closed afterwards.

Fire safety equipment of Kwai Fong and Quarry Bay stations was improperly used. Some other facilities were also vandalized in these stations. 12 August (Monday) to During this period, MTR Staff were surrounded and 22 August (Thursday) verbally abused by protestors at Kwai Fong and Tai Koo stations, graffiti was sprayed inside and outside multiple stations and station facilities were vandalized. Trains once bypassed Causeway Bay, Tin Hau and Fortress Hill stations on 18 August. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1175

Station Closure/Train Service Suspension Date due to POEsNote 21 August (Wednesday) POE was held in Yuen Long Station. Later on, some people activated the fire safety equipment while various station facilities were also damaged. Trains once bypassed Yuen Long Station in the early morning on 22 August. 23 August (Friday) Protestors were creating nuisance at Kwai Fong Station, and station facilities were vandalized the night before. Some people were flashing strong light at station staff. Having considered that the protesters were summoned to Kwai Fong Station again at night, station was closed early. 24 August (Saturday) Due to POEs, stations of Kwun Tong Line between Kowloon Bay and Lam Tin stations were closed early. Train service of Kwun Tong Line between Choi Hung and Tiu Keng Leng stations was suspended. Facilities of a number of stations including closed stations and those opened for normal passenger service were vandalized. These included damaging CCTV cameras, interfering with entry/exit gates and defacing station facilities with graffiti. 25 August (Sunday) Due to POEs, Kwai Fong and Tsuen Wan Station of Tsuen Wan Line, and Tsuen Wan West Station of West Rail Line were closed. Trains of Tsuen Wan Line bypassed Kwai Fong and Tsuen Wan stations and terminated at Tai Wo Hau Station. Trains of West Rail Line also bypassed Tsuen Wan West Station. Facilities of a number of stations including closed stations and those opened for normal passenger service were vandalized. These include damaging CCTV cameras, interfering with entry/exit gates and defacing station facilities with graffiti. 31 August (Saturday) Protestors damaged multiple railway stations along different railway lines. Train service of Kwun Tong, Tsuen Wan, Island, South Island and Tseung Kwan O Lines were suspended. 1176 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Station Closure/Train Service Suspension Date due to POEsNote 1 September (Sunday) Tung Chung Station was extensively vandalized while Tsing Yi Station was also damaged. People also trespassed into the track area of Airport Express and threw items onto the tracks. Tung Chung Line service bypassed Tung Chung Station while Hong Kong-bound service of Airport Express was suspended. Early September to now A lot of Light Rail equipment has been continuously vandalized including a large number of Octopus fare processors, ticket issuing machines, CCTVs, passenger information display panels, advertisement panels, etc. Besides, Light Rail Vehicles, Light Rail track, trackside equipment and signalling system were vandalized while objects were thrown onto tracks. Some of the routes needed to be diverted or suspended from service. MTR buses had been vandalized as well. Light Rail and MTR Bus services were also affected by road conditions and circumstances nearby during POEs. 6 September (Friday) Prince Edward, Mong Kok and Yau Ma Tei stations were closed early due to severe damage. Train services of Tsuen Wan Line between Mei Foo and Central stations was suspended early. 7 September (Saturday) Prince Edward, Mong Kok, Sha Tin, Tai Po Market and Tseung Kwan O stations were closed early due to extensive vandalism during POEs. 8 September (Sunday) Facilities of the Central, Admiralty, Wan Chai and Tin Hau stations were severely damaged. Amongst them, the Central, Wan Chai, Prince Edward and Mong Kok stations were closed and trains bypassed these four stations. 15 September (Sunday) Admiralty, Wan Chai and Causeway Bay stations were closed early due to vandalism. Trains bypassed these three stations. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1177

Station Closure/Train Service Suspension Date due to POEsNote 21 September (Saturday) Due to POEs, trains of West Rail Line bypassed Tuen Mun and Yuen Long stations. Services of Light Rail and MTR Bus were suspended when the Light Rail station facilities were vandalized during POEs. 22 September (Sunday) Sha Tin, Tsing Yi, Kowloon, Kwai Fong, Prince Edward and Mong Kok stations were closed early due to extensive vandalism. Trains bypassed relevant stations.

When MTR staff were performing platform duty at Nam Cheong Station for a Tung Chung-bound Tung Chung Line train, someone illegally trespassed into the rear driving cabin and released the emergency exit ramp, the train could not continue with its journey. 29 September (Sunday) When MTR staff was performing platform duty at Shau Kei Wan Station for a Kennedy Town-bound Island Line train, a group of people illegally trespassed into the rear driving cabin and released the emergency exit ramp and threw the fire extinguisher taken from the driving cabin onto the track, causing a temporary suspension of train service between Tai Koo and Chai Wan stations.

In view of the emergency situations in Admiralty, Wan Chai, Causeway Bay and Tin Hau area, crowd control and train service adjustment measures were implemented at a number of MTR stations, including closing station entrances/exits, arranging trains to bypass certain stations and closing stations. 1 October (Tuesday) Due to POEs, 11 stations including Admiralty, Wan Chai, Prince Edward, Causeway Bay and Sha Tin were closed accordingly. Subsequently, facilities of more than 20 MTR stations were vandalized and set fire. A number of stations were closed. At night, a total of over 40 Heavy Rail stations were closed. 1178 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Station Closure/Train Service Suspension Date due to POEsNote 2 October (Wednesday) The emergency exit ramp of a Whampoa-bound Kwun Tong Line train was released when MTR staff was performing platform duty at Yau Tong Station. The emergency exit ramp was unlawfully released, causing a temporary disruption of Whampoa-bound train service between Yau Tong and Kwun Tong stations. 4 October (Friday) Multiple MTR and Light Rail stations were vandalized and set fire. MTR staff were attacked and injured. The service of the whole network including Heavy Rail, Light Rail and MTR Bus ended early at 10:30 pm. 5 October (Saturday) The whole MTR network could not resume services for the whole day due to extensive vandalism of multiple stations. Only Airport Express resumed limited service in the afternoon. 6 October (Sunday) 45 Heavy Rail station reopened in the morning, providing limited service to passengers. The whole network was closed at night as many stations were vandalized again. Only Airport Express (between Hong Kong Airport and stations) and certain MTR Bus routes remained service. Services of the remaining Heavy Rail, Light Rail and MTR Bus were suspended. 7 October (Monday) 39 Heavy Rail stations reopened in the morning and services ended early at 6:00 pm. 8 October (Tuesday) 13 Heavy Rail stations were closed after reviewing the progress of the repair works. Repair works at individual stations had made progress and Po Lam as well as Tai Po Market stations were reopened later on. All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 8:00 pm. 11 to 12 October All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport (Friday to Saturday) Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1179

Station Closure/Train Service Suspension Date due to POEsNote 13 October (Sunday) Taking into account the vandalism in various stations and that operations were severely affected, a number of stations were closed and train service on the Ma On Shan, Tseung Kwan O and Tsuen Wan Lines as well as Light Rail ended early. Certain stations on other railway lines were also closed.

All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm. 14 to 18 October All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport (Monday to Friday) Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm. 20 October (Sunday) Due to POEs, Austin, Tsim Sha Tsui and Yuen Long stations were closed early.

Multiple stations of Tsuen Wan, Kwun Tong, West Rail Lines and Airport Express were closed due to vandalism of stations and service disruption.

All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm. 21 October (Monday) Due to POEs, Yuen Long Station was closed early. Facilities of various Light Rail stations including the tracks were vandalized.

All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm. 22 October (Tuesday) All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm. 23 to 25 October All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport (Wednesday to Friday) Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 11:00 pm. 26 October (Saturday) All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm. 1180 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Station Closure/Train Service Suspension Date due to POEsNote 27 October (Sunday) Mong Kok Station was closed as a petrol bomb was hurled into the entrances/exits of the station. Yau Ma Tei Station was also closed afterwards in view of the emergency situation arising from unrest outside the station.

All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm. 31 October (Thursday) Due to POEs, Prince Edward and Central stations were closed early. Specific entrances/exits of Mong Kok Station were blocked and set fire in the evening, all trains bypassed Mong Kok, Prince Edward as well as Central stations.

All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 11:00 pm. 2 November (Saturday) Entrances/exits of Central Station were set fire and closed. Trains of Tsuen Wan and Island lines had to bypass Central Station. Due to POEs, some entrances/exits of Causeway Bay and Mong Kok stations were closed.

All train services on MTR lines (excluding Airport Express) and MTR Bus ended early at 10:00 pm.

Notes:

(1) The above information has not covered the Airport Express arrangements requested by the Government and the Airport Authority Hong Kong, in which the Airport Express maintained services only between Hong Kong and Airport stations without stopping at intermediate stations, including Kowloon, Tsing Yi and AsiaWorld-Expo stations.

(2) Given the extensive coverage of stations and trains operation affected, MTR would have to respond promptly in view of high-risk or emergency situation, such as the need to close stations again after reopening when the station facilities were vandalized. As station environment varied, the actual time of station closure or train service bypass might be slightly different from information disseminated to the public.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1181

Employment services

22. MR VINCENT CHENG (in Chinese): President, as pointed out in Report No. 72 of the Director of Audit published in April this year, several indicators showed that the performance of the employment services of the Labour Department ("LD") had been unsatisfactory in recent years: the numbers of visitors to the 13 job centres and three industry-based recruitment centres decreased continuously; the number of visits to the Interactive Employment Service ("iES") website decreased continuously; and the dedicated employment services provided for young people, the elderly and middle-aged, people with disabilities and members of ethnic minorities were plagued with various problems, including decreased numbers of participants, as well as low retention rates and short retention periods for job placements. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of the respective numbers of visitors to the 13 job centres and the Construction Industry Recruitment Centre, as well as the respective numbers of job fairs and sharing sessions organized by the job centres and the attendances thereof, in the past six months;

(2) whether LD will improve the designs of the iES website and mobile application to better suit the needs of job seekers, enrich their contents (e.g. providing more templates for writing job application letters and curriculum vitae, and information on job interview skills), and step up the relevant publicity efforts, so as to boost their utilization rates; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;

(3) as the Government plans to provide a retention allowance to the participants of the Employment Programme for the Elderly and Middle-aged ("EPEM"), the Youth Employment and Training Programme ("YETP") and the Work Orientation and Placement Scheme, of the details (including the implementation date);

(4) of the new measures put in place to attract more employers to participate in EPEM, so as to increase the employment opportunities for the elderly and middle-aged; and

(5) of the new measures put in place to boost the completion rates of on-the-job training by YETP participants?

1182 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Chinese): President, my reply to the Member's question is as follows:

(1) From April to September 2019, there were 172 266 and 6 127 visitors to the 13 job centres and Construction Industry Recruitment Centre of the Labour Department ("LD") respectively. Over the same period, the job centres organized 503 district-based job fairs, with 17 473 on-the-spot job interviews arranged for job seekers attending the events. The job centres also conducted four experience sharing sessions for employers, and 83 employer representatives attended.

(2) LD's the Interactive Employment Service ("iES") website is one of the most visited government websites. Apart from searching for job vacancies, job seekers can obtain a wide range of employment information, such as templates of job application letter and curriculum vitae, job interview techniques and frequently asked questions, precautions on job traps, etc., from the website. Various dedicated web pages have also been set up under the website to cater for the needs of different job seekers (such as the elderly and ethnic minorities) and employers. LD will enhance the functionality and design of the iES website and its mobile application on a continuous basis to provide job seekers and employers with more convenient online employment services and better user experience. LD will also continue to enrich the content of the mobile application by incorporating more useful and updated employment information. Moreover, LD will continue to strengthen the publicity of the iES website and its mobile application through various channels, including other government websites, large-scale job fairs, promotional leaflets and display boards, etc., to increase their usage.

(3) LD will launch a pilot scheme to encourage the elderly aged 60 or above, young people and persons with disabilities to undergo and complete on-the-job training ("OJT") under its employment programmes through the provision of a retention allowance, thereby stabilizing employment. These employees, to be engaged under the Elderly and Middle-aged ("EPEM"), the Youth Employment and training Programme ("YETP") and the Work Orientation and Placement Scheme, will be offered a retention allowance of $3,000 if LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1183

they stay in the OJT posts for three months. Thereafter, the employee will receive an additional allowance of $1,000 for each ensuing month when he/she stays in the same job until his/her completion of the 6 to 12-month OJT. If the relevant employee takes up a part-time OJT post, he/she will be entitled to half the amount payable to a full-time employee. Subject to the length of the OJT period, the maximum amount of retention allowance that a full-time employee may receive is $12,000. The three-year pilot measure is planned for launching in 2020.

(4) LD has enhanced EPEM in September 2018 and significantly increased the OJT allowance payable to employers for engaging each job seeker aged 60 or above from the original ceiling of $3,000 per month for 3 to 6 months to a maximum of $4,000 per month for 6 to 12 months. According to statistics after the enhancement, there has been a discernible increase in the number of applications by employers for OJT allowance, in particular, those involving job seekers aged 60 or above.

In addition, LD has stepped up its promotional efforts to encourage employers to join EPEM. These include: (i) promoting EPEM to employers, trade unions and institutes of various industries through the industry-based tripartite committee meetings organized by LD; (ii) strengthening the promotion of EPEM to employers participating in LD's job fairs; and (iii) publicizing EPEM through placing advertisements in public transports, etc.

(5) Apart from the provision of retention allowance to trainees undergoing OJT under YETP to encourage them to complete OJT as mentioned in part (3) of the reply, LD has, since July 2019, compiled monthly statistical reports on the reasons for early termination of OJTs. For trainees whose OJTs are ended prematurely due to inadequate work skills or personal performance issues (e.g. behavioural problems), LD will approach the case managers concerned for appropriate follow-up actions with an aim to enhance the trainees' employability and job stability through better equipping themselves.

1184 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now suspend the meeting until 2:30 pm.

1:20 pm

Meeting suspended.

2:30 pm

Council then resumed.

(Mr Martin LIAO indicated his intention to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Martin LIAO, what is your point?

MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): I propose moving a motion for the adjournment of this Council under Rule 16(2) of the Rules of Procedure. The wording of the motion is as follows:

That this Council do now adjourn for the purpose of debating the following issue: In view of the recent ongoing violent storming of the District Council electoral activities, including setting fire on and vandalizing the offices of candidates, and deliberately disrupting and causing nuisance to electoral activities conducted by candidates, and given the escalating level of violence, including a candidate's ear being partially bitten off, and another candidate being stabbed with a knife this morning, the immediate countermeasures adopted by the Government to ensure the personal safety of candidates for the District Council Election and their electioneering teams, and that the District Council Election will be conducted in a fair, open and just manner on 24 November this year.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now suspend the meeting to deal with Mr Martin LIAO's request for proposing an adjournment motion.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1185

2:31 pm

Meeting suspended.

3:29 pm

Council then resumed.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Martin LIAO, I fully agree that the issue requested by you for a debate is very important to the public. However, I think that before the District Council Election, Members still have many opportunities to follow up the issue through various channels in this Council. For this reason, I think that the issue is not so urgent that it must be debated at this meeting.

Based on the aforesaid considerations, I rule that the motion proposed by Mr Martin LIAO does not comply with the requirements set out in Rule 16(2) of the Rules of Procedure.

GOVERNMENT BILLS

Council became committee of the whole Council.

Consideration by Committee of the Whole Council

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Council now becomes committee of the whole Council to continue the consideration of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019.

The committee will continue with the joint debate on the clauses and amendments (including the amendment to the long title).

Members may refer to the Appendix to the Script for the debate and voting arrangements for the Bill.

1186 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Stand-over item: Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 (standing over from the meeting of 26 June 2019)

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (TAX CONCESSIONS) BILL 2019

MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): Chairman, this is the second time that I speak on the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill"), and the third time that I speak on the Government's amendment.

Chairman, you reminded Members last week that we should be as concise as possible, avoid straying from the question under debate and repetition when we spoke. While I understand and will follow your advice, why do I still speak again? This is because there are many questions that I have not raised previously. During last week's debate, some Members considered the Government's current amendment very simple in content. It is actually true. Chairman, if you read the amendment again, you will find that apart from some technical revisions, clause 5 is the major provision. The main purpose of clause 5 is to raise the percentage for tax reduction (including salaries tax, profits tax and tax under personal assessment) of the year of assessment 2018-2019 from the original 75% to 100%. The provision seems very simple. Yet, just because of this reason, I would like to speak again for the sake of reminding the public that this amendment actually has very profound meaning despite being simple.

Chairman, why is the amendment proposed? Why does the Government propose to raise the percentage from 75% to 100%? The main reason is that the Financial Secretary has, in response to the recent incidents, raised the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100% as a relief measure. Such a relief measure has great significance because, Chairman, as you may also know, this concession should originally benefit about 1.91 million taxpayers; now that the Government has raised the percentage to 100%, which means an increase of 25 percentage points, and only about some 1.4 million taxpayers are involved. In other words, the Government considers that amongst the original pool of beneficiaries, 500 000 people do not need relief. This percentage is thus very important.

Chairman, you also remember that someone has talked about a concession of 100%, or even the possibility of having over 100%. Certainly, I disagree. Therefore, though I indicated my support for the amendment in my earlier speech, I am not totally satisfied. Why am I not satisfied? I had expressed some views LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1187 in my last speech, thus I hope to further talk about my other dissatisfaction in this regard. I hope the Secretary can give some thoughts to them. Certainly, the Secretary may say that Members have already expressed their support for the Bill, but I hope the authorities will still consider my dissatisfaction. Or perhaps, I should say that I hope the authorities will not once again disregard the relevant factors.

Why is it so? Chairman, apart from the some 1.4 million-odd beneficiaries whom I mentioned just now, there are still 500 000 people who had originally benefited from the 75% tax concession. Yet, how come these 500 000 people are not covered in the Financial Secretary's relief measure? Is it because they have already paid their tax and enjoyed the tax concession of $20,000, so they need not be benefited? Certainly, this may be related to another issue, i.e. are grass-roots people the only victims in the present predicament? In fact, the middle class and the small and medium enterprises are also having difficulties. They may afford to pay their tax in 2018-2019; yet, does it mean that they have no difficulty now? We should ponder on this issue. Chairman, if you ask me, I would say that they also face very big difficulties. But, why are they excluded from the relief measure? This is my first point.

Second, how much additional public money is involved in raising the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100%? It is $1.8 billion. Comparing to the past fiscal surpluses of the Government, $1.8 billion is indeed a very small amount. The surplus was some $140 billion in 2017-2018, and last year, the amount should still be $70 billion. In comparison, $1.8 billion is indeed a very small amount. As Members have said earlier, even if a more generous offer is made by raising the tax rebate ceiling from $20,000 to $30,000 in addition to raising the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100%, only an extra of some $4 billion will be incurred. By spending an additional amount of less than $5 billion, 500 000 people will have a further tax rebate of $10,000. Why did the authorities not consider making such an arrangement?

Therefore, all these similar problems account for my dissatisfaction with the current amendment, i.e. the percentage for tax reductions is only raised from 75% to 100%. In this connection, I have to reiterate that at present, many problems have arisen mainly because the Secretary has failed to make comprehensive consideration, leading to division. I am not proposing that the grass roots, the middle class or even people with more resources should be 1188 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 provided with the same level of assistance. Assistance may differ according to the targets, but it should not give people an impression that they are being totally neglected. This point is very important.

In fact, looking back at the relief measures implemented by the Government in the past, they did not only target the grass roots, but had also paid heed to other aspects, such as the export trade, or the transportation, catering and travel industries mentioned recently. Chairman, I want to point out that I am dissatisfied that the authorities have only increased the percentage concerned. For the middle-class professionals, they have been excluded from most of the relief measures implemented over time. Chairman, you also know that the handing out of $2,500 to students is probably the only measure offered across different strata of society. However, what I want to say is that the mere adjustment of the percentage for tax reduction has actually generated huge problems, and this must be dealt with in a focused manner; otherwise though this timely measure may help some people, it may give rise to widespread discontentment. Under the present social condition, I think discontentment should be avoided as far as possible. I hope everyone can get along in harmony and avoid dissension. I hope the Government can make this situation happen.

Chairman, lastly I would like to raise a point. While it is good for the Government to offer relief measures, we have to bear in mind that this amendment involves tax concession, and concession does not mean the middle-class people asking the Government for money. Instead, they have an obligation to pay tax if they have made money. Since the Government has considerable tax revenue, why does it not alleviate the heavy tax burden of the middle class? Given Hong Kong's current economic situation, we actually have to bear in mind that members of the public can only benefit from this relief measure after they have paid tax. If they do not have to pay tax, how on earth can the Government provide relief to them and help them out? I think this issue should be thoroughly considered by the Government.

After paying tax, when middle-class people see the recent problems of many people damaging public facilities, schools, etc, they will query where the public money for repairs comes from. It is the taxpayers who foot the bill. However, when taxpayers are having a hard time, there is no one to help them. While they have to pay tax when they have made money, have the authorities made good use of the tax revenue? Are there people vandalizing public facilities, costing us a huge amount of public funds for remedy? It is costy to repair the damaged smart lamppost, and taxpayers are dissatisfied …

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1189

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Mr Tony TSE, please return to the subject of this debate.

MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): Chairman, I return to the subject of this debate. This time, I mainly speak on this issue instead of simply caring about the raising of the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100%. If someone thinks in this way, he just shares his views without giving in-depth consideration into the matter. This is the third time that I speak on the amendment.

Chairman, I so submit.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): If not, I now call upon the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury to speak again.

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Chairman, I am grateful to Members for their speeches made in support of the Government's amendment to raise the percentage for tax reduction for the year of assessment 2018-2019 to 100%. During the joint debate, many Members have given other views, and here I will respond briefly to three points.

First, some Members suggested that the $20,000 tax reduction ceiling be further increased to benefit more taxpayers and enterprises.

As I have pointed out during the resumption of Second Reading debate, the Government has proposed to raise the percentage for tax reduction for the year of assessment 2018-2019 from 75% to 100%, subject to a ceiling of $20,000 per case. The tax reduction proposal will benefit 70% or about 1.43 million of taxpayers and enterprises, of which 1.33 million taxpayers and enterprises will have all taxes waived for the year of assessment 2018-2019. We believe this proposal can take care of those taxpayers and enterprises most in need of assistance. Also, under the two-tiered profits tax rates regime to be 1190 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 implemented in the year of assessment 2018-2019, the first $2 million of profits earned by a company will be taxed at 8.25%. This will further alleviate the burden on small and medium enterprises.

Second, during the debate, some Honourable Members suggested the Government to suspend levying the provisional tax for a year to ease taxpayers' financial burden. I hope Members can understand two points.

First, in levying provisional tax, we are not levying tax payments for two years. Unlike most countries, Hong Kong does not practise the so-called "Pay As You Earn" system, whereby income tax is withheld and paid at the time the remuneration is received. To ensure that tax is collected in the year the income is earned as far as possible, we implement the provisional tax regime. That said, the provisional tax is imposed on the taxpayer's earned income of no more than one year.

Furthermore, the tax is merely provisional in nature, and is by no means a prepayment. As an example, salaries tax payers are normally required to pay 75% of the provisional tax in January. The tax amount reflects the income earned between April and December of the preceding year and is not prepayment in nature.

Moreover, a holdover arrangement is provided under the provisional tax regime. Taxpayers anticipating a decrease of more than 10% in their chargeable income or assessable profits for the current year as compared to the preceding year may apply to the Inland Revenue Department ("IRD") for a holdover of the whole or part of the provisional tax under the Inland Revenue Ordinance. The holdover arrangement applies to salaries tax, profits tax and property tax. Given that the recent social events have not affected the income of every taxpayer, a holdover of payment of tax across the board is not the best option. Moreover, the current holdover arrangement has already worked satisfactorily during previous economic downturns in Hong Kong.

The application procedures for holdover of provisional tax are not complicated. In respect of profits tax, applicants normally are only required to submit draft accounts as supporting documents. For salaries tax, applicants only have to state their estimated income with reason for the reduction of income (such as reduction of salary or unemployment). Applications for holdover of provisional tax should be made in writing not later than 28 days before the due LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1191 date for payment of the provisional tax, or 14 days after the date of issue of the notice for payment of the provisional tax (whichever is later). In most cases, IRD will inform taxpayers of the application results within 12 working days upon receipt of applications and necessary information. In view of the unusual economic circumstances this year, IRD will do its best to expedite the vetting of holdover applications.

In addition to the two suggestions made earlier, many Members have put forward other relief measures and their thoughts on the Budget for the coming year, which we will consider comprehensively.

I would like to stress that the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 and the tax concessions in the amendment are only part of the Government's overall relief measures. The Financial Secretary announced one-off relief measures costing $42.9 billion in the 2019-2020 Budget, followed by three rounds of relief measures costing more than $21.1 billion in mid-August. In short, relief measures amounting to over $64 billion have been announced this year to help enterprises and residents from different sectors to ease the pressure brought about by the economic downturn.

The three rounds of relief measures included a number of rental concessions. Among the relief measures announced in August, rentals for most short-term tenancies for community and business use, as well as catering establishments and retail stores under the Lands Department and Government Property Agency ("GPA"), have been reduced by 50% for six months with effect from 1 October. In October, the Financial Secretary extended the coverage of the rental concession to include fee-paying public car parks under the Lands Department, GPA and Leisure and Cultural Services Department ("LCSD"), supermarkets, superstores, a shopping mall and vending machines under GPA, catering and retail premises (such as light refreshment kiosks, shops and vending machines) under LCSD, and civic centre facilities.

The Government has also made repeated appeals to property owners and developers to provide rental concessions to support their tenants, in particular those in sectors hard-hit by the economic downturn, such as retail, catering, tourism, transport and logistics.

According to advanced estimates of third-quarter Gross Domestic Products ("GDP") figures released by the Government last week, Hong Kong's economic growth has moderated progressively since last year amid a slowdown in the 1192 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 global economy and China-United States trade tensions. The situation showed an abrupt deterioration recently due to the severe impacts of the local social incidents. In the third quarter of this year, GDP contracted by 2.9% year-on-year in real terms, marking the first year-on-year contraction for an individual quarter since the Great Recession of 2009. On a seasonally adjusted quarter-to-quarter comparison, the fall in real GDP widened to 3.2% in the third quarter from 0.5% in the preceding quarter, indicating that the Hong Kong economy has entered a technical recession.

Hong Kong is therefore in a very critical condition. Our society must join efforts to facilitate economic recovery and lift Hong Kong out of recession with a view to improving people's livelihood, promoting employment and enhancing the city's overall competitiveness.

While making every endeavour in developing Hong Kong's pillar industries, the Government will also closely monitor the latest economic situation and devise corresponding measures as necessary.

Finally, Chairman, I once again appeal to all sectors of the community to stick together and help one another to overcome the present economic challenges. Thank you, Chairman.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): The committee now first votes on the clauses with no amendment standing part of the Bill.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That clauses 1 to 4 stand part of the Bill. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1193

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): The committee now votes on the first amendment moved by the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury.

I wish to remind Members that if the Secretary's first amendment is negatived, he may not move the second amendment.

Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury, you may move your first amendment.

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Chairman, I move my first amendment as set out in the Appendix to the Script.

Proposed amendment

Clause 5 (See Annex I)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the first amendment moved by the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury be passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

1194 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the amendment passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Clause 5 as amended.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the clause as amended just read out by the Clerk stand part of the Bill. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Long title.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): The committee now votes on the amendment to the long title.

Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury, you may move your second amendment.

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): Chairman, I move my second amendment as set out in the Appendix to the Script.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1195

Proposed amendment

Long title (See Annex I)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the second amendment moved by the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury be passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the amendment passed.

CHAIRMAN (in Cantonese): All the proceedings on the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 have been concluded in committee of the whole Council. Council now resumes.

Council then resumed.

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I now report to the Council: That the

Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 has been passed by committee of the whole Council with amendments. I move the motion that "This Council adopts the report".

1196 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury be passed.

In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, this motion shall be voted on without amendment or debate.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

Third Reading of Government Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Government Bill: Third Reading.

INLAND REVENUE (AMENDMENT) (TAX CONCESSIONS) BILL 2019

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): President, I move that the

Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 be read the Third time and do pass.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1197

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 be read the Third time and do pass.

Does any Member wish to speak?

(Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok raised his hand in indication)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, please speak.

IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of the Third Reading of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill"), which has been passed by committee of the whole Council with amendments. That said, I do not really agree with the approach taken by the Government. Hong Kong's economy is now beset with both internal and external problems. While social riots have gone on for five months and violence continues to escalate, the Government should further strengthen its measures to ease people's burden and boost the economy.

President, I believe we have noticed that during the Committee stage, Honourable colleagues of different political parties and affiliations urged the SAR Government to enhance its relief efforts in response to the current situation and think out of the box in its administration. A case in point is the tax concessions now proposed by the SAR Government. Under its current proposal, the percentage for tax reduction in salaries tax, profits tax and tax under personal assessment for the year of assessment 2018-2019 will be increased, but only from 75% to 100%, with the ceiling retained at $20,000 per case. This proposal will not be effective in easing people's burden because the adjustment will only benefit taxpayers paying less than $20,000 of taxes.

As our local economy and people's livelihood are deeply plagued by both internal and external problems, the Government must strengthen its market rescue and relief measures. For example, it may consider adopting the proposals suggested by the Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong ("BPA") to the Financial Secretary earlier, which include raising the basic allowance to $150,000, further widening the tax bands, as well as cutting salaries tax and tax under personal assessment to allow a maximum reduction of $35,000. The SAR Government may think that it should only use its annual surplus for granting 1198 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 reliefs. I, however, believe that the Government must find the right antidote when facing the risk of a sharp economic downturn, even though that may cost more resources. The Government should not blindly stick to the principle of maintaining fiscal balance; it should instead take a far-sighted view when spending within its means. Basic Economics theories emphasize on the effects of fiscal policies in society as fiscal tools are crucial to boosting an ailing economy.

President, as we may notice, during the Second Reading debate and the Committee stage, all pro-establishment Members spoke with one voice that the storm arising from the opposition to the proposed legislative amendments had persistently troubled the community for five months, and with the escalation of violent acts by extremists, a wide range of industries were hard hit. Against this background, no matter how many one-off "sweeteners" are given out by the Government, they are at best a weak palliative to ease the hardship for a while but can never fix the problems at root. The most urgent task of the SAR Government at the moment is to take expeditious, powerful and effective measures and stringently enforce the law to resume social order immediately. Only when the community is back on the right track can we progress steadily and further develop our economy to improve people's livelihood.

Of course, in the course of stopping violence and curbing disorder, it is necessary for the SAR Government to keep a close eye on our socio-economic situation, listen humbly to the voices of the people and the trade, put fiscal reserves to good use and introduce more relief measures in a timely manner to achieve the goals of "supporting enterprises", "safeguarding jobs" and "stabilizing the economy".

President, most of the people want peace to be restored in Hong Kong. Stopping violence and curbing disorder is thus their common wish. All sectors of the community, including Members from different political parties, should put aside their political differences, stop meaningless arguments and do some real work to improve people's livelihood. BPA has received many public views saying that they hope the Legislative Council will soon be able to conduct its meetings normally according to its established procedures. Unfortunately, since October, our meetings have never been smooth in this legislative session. The House Committee and some Panels are yet to elect the Chairman and Deputy Chairman …

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1199

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, please hold on. I remind Members that this Council is now having the Third Reading debate and Members should state whether or not they support the Third Reading of the Bill. As regards the overall merits of the Bill, Members should have discussed the issue in the Second Reading debate. As for individual clauses and amendments, Members should have expressed their views in the Committee stage and should stop repeating the same views in the Third Reading debate. Besides, comments on the current social environment should be raised on other occasions. Ir Dr LO, please return to the subject of this debate.

IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): Okay. President, I am in support of the Bill. However, while I express my support, I have to point out its deficiencies.

The Finance Committee has held a number of meetings, spending almost 20 hours just to elect its Chairman and Deputy Chairman.

President, apart from granting tax reliefs, the Government should also actively stimulate the economy to help different industries ride out of the storm.

With these remarks, President, I support the Third Reading of the Bill.

MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, as the Chairman of the Bills Committee on Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019, I would like to first thank a number of Members for speaking actively over the past two weeks. The tolerant attitude of the President towards handling the debate on the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill") will become a paradigm for us to debate various bills in the future. I support the Third Reading of the Bill for only one reason, that is, the measures that the SAR Government can adopt to shore up the economy or offset a global economic recession are limited. Why? This is because we have the Linked Exchange Rate, and hence we are unable to make use of interest rate and monetary policy. In terms of fiscal policy, tax reduction or cash handout may slightly boost consumer sentiment, and may also generate positive feelings among people. In addition, I have also heard various Members criticizing the inadequacy of this initiative. I have never believed that tax reduction or cash handout can be utilized to withstand economic recessions, only that they can generate more 1200 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 positive feelings among wage earners and taxpayers. An increase in disposable income may slightly boost consumer sentiment. In the end, if the SAR Government really wants to reverse an economic downturn in the absence of a monetary policy or interest rate adjustment, it can only rely upon government spending, namely spending on infrastructure that Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok frequently refers to, as this serves as an automatic adjustment mechanism of the economy given the Linked Exchange Rate. Certainly, this does not mean that we can roll out infrastructure projects in an arbitrary manner. We should only do so as and when necessary. Hence, under the backdrop of a global economic downturn, this policy may be of some help, but we must act expeditiously. Certainly, I also hope that the Government can implement some additional measures to offset the current global economic downturn.

With these remarks, President, I support the Third Reading and passage of the Bill.

MR HOLDEN CHOW (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of the Third Reading of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill").

President, as I said in my previous speeches, the Bill involves basic tax concessions. Although the Government used to cap tax concessions at $30,000, it has lowered the ceiling back to only $20,000 this year. In my view, this arrangement is better than nothing given that its impact will simply be far from adequate. I am worried that this amendment alone will provide minimal relief. However, as far as the sandwich class is concerned, tax concessions are after all better than nothing. As I said just now, tax concessions had previously been capped at $30,000. Despite Hong Kong's current difficult economic condition, the Government has only proposed to cap tax concessions at $20,000. I find this unreasonable. However, as having tax concession is at least better than having nothing, I will still support the Bill.

President, given this opportunity, I note that the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury ("the Secretary") has mentioned the holding over of provisional salaries tax in his speech today. The Secretary stressed that not all local wage earners have been affected and suffered a reduction of income due to the disturbances arising from the recent social disputes. While he claimed that not all wage earners have been affected, I must point out that the disturbances LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1201 arising from the recent social disputes have profound and deep repercussions on the economy. According to the Secretary's logic, given that not all people have been affected, it is not necessary to make special arrangements for the holding over of provisional tax payment, nor is it necessary to alleviate the public's pressure of tax payment in the light of the economic implications of the social disturbances. In my opinion, such views are at odds with the current social conditions.

In my opinion, the Government should actively consider making special arrangements under special situations and study ways to assist wage earners and small and medium enterprises ("SMEs") of various sectors and industries. For example, it may adopt more active measures on the holding over of provisional tax by making special arrangements under the present special situation.

President, we have repeatedly stressed that the tax concessions under the Bill alone will be insufficient for providing relief to various sectors and industries. The Government should be more proactive in implementing other measures to assist various sectors and industries affected by the current economic conditions. For example, I have noticed that the banking sector has recently launched the Banking Sector SME Lending Coordination Mechanism ("the Coordination Mechanism"); the Hong Kong Monetary Authority has also reported on the status of the Coordination Mechanism at a briefing of the Legislative Council Panel on Financial Affairs two days ago. We have recently met representatives from SMEs and the banking sector. They have reiterated their hope that the Coordination Mechanism will assist SMEs in overcoming the current difficulties …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Holden CHOW, please return to the question under debate.

MR HOLDEN CHOW (in Cantonese): Okay. I will return to the question under debate. In the light of Hong Kong's current economic conditions, apart from tax concessions, we consider that the aforesaid Coordination Mechanism should be used as a supportive measure to assist SMEs. Put simply, the Coordination Mechanism aims to coordinate the efforts of members of the banking sector in supporting SMEs, whereby loan applications from SMEs facing a cash flow problem can be handled in a lenient manner. After frontline staffers have received the loan applications, the Coordination Mechanism can prevent the 1202 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 situation where senior managers have approved loan applications whereas junior staffers have identified some other problems. We hope that the Coordination Mechanism will help tide SMEs over the difficulties.

President, I concur with the argument raised by some Honourable Members just now that the available measures we can adopt are very limited in view of the current economic environment of Hong Kong. That said, I would also like to point out that the Hong Kong Government has all along been following the policy of positive non-intervention. Even though we also agree that the low-tax regime is one of Hong Kong's competitive edge …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Holden CHOW, I would like to remind you once again. You have strayed from the question. Please return to the question under debate.

MR HOLDEN CHOW (in Cantonese): I am now returning to the question under debate.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please expound on whether you support the Third Reading of the Bill.

MR HOLDEN CHOW (in Cantonese): I support the Third Reading of the Bill, including the amendment to the taxation arrangement. As I said just now, for the purpose of promoting the Hong Kong economy as a whole, the general tax concession proposed by the Bill is actually only conducive to maintaining our daily economic operations. In the long run, I think that the Bill is insufficient for further promoting Hong Kong's economic development.

We have indicated to the Secretary on various occasions that the long-standing measures of tax concessions and other taxation arrangements under the Bill alone are in fact insufficient for taking Hong Kong out of the current economic difficulties. Some Honourable colleagues brought up a number of relief arrangements and their effects just now. In the long run, in order to really drive the Hong Kong economy to open up new horizons again, I think that the existing measures alone are insufficient.

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President, I must point out that the existing taxation arrangements, including the simple tax regime, low tax rates and tax concessions, have been upheld by the SAR Government as a continuation of the positive non-intervention mentality of the British Hong Kong Government. The SAR Government has long believed that everything should be determined by the market, while the Government should only be responsible for providing a good business environment. However, in fact, confronted with global competition, Hong Kong is surrounded by various competitors. For example, we often compare Hong Kong with Singapore. The Singaporean Government has been playing a fairly active role in supporting various local industries and the local economy. In the face of competitors, Hong Kong …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Holden CHOW, if you continue to stray from the question, I will ask you to stop speaking. Please return to the question under debate.

MR HOLDEN CHOW (in Cantonese): President, what I said just now pertains to the Bill indeed. Please let me continue because my arguments are related to tax concessions, tax regime and the current economic development. While I support the Bill, I must point out that there are actually many inadequacies of the taxation arrangements under the Bill, which will be insufficient for promoting Hong Kong's economic development.

If the Government really intends to break Hong Kong's current economic stalemate by solving the problems in the global economic environment and such fundamental economic problems as the disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong, it should be responsible for distributing wealth under the taxation arrangement, such as making arrangement for tax concessions. I have also been wondering why the Government has failed to put forward a more targeted proposal on tax concessions. For example, it may stop categorizing rates as one type of tax. When it comes to rates, we have pointed out that large property developers who are holding many residential units have been rebated rates of as much as hundreds of millions every year …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Holden CHOW, you have digressed too far from the subject. Please stop speaking.

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MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): President, after two weeks of in-depth discussion, the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill") now comes to the third week of deliberation today. Members present share their views one after another. Actually, it is commendable that the Bill now comes to the Third Reading. I support the Bill and all the amendments thereto as proposed by the Government.

During the past discussions, I noted that a point worth mentioning, i.e. no Member has ever requested a headcount. This is a normal discussion, during which Members share their views and put forward various suggestions. From the time the Government introduced the Bill, to the time the Financial Secretary announced the relevant amendments in August and the resumption of the Second Reading debate on the Bill upon the resumption of the Council, Hong Kong has all along been plagued by internal and external troubles. External troubles refer to the global economic recession caused by the Sino-United States trade conflicts, in which Hong Kong is also affected. Nevertheless, this issue is rather distant from us. Our immediate concerns are the domestic troubles. Over the past four to five months, the Government's proposed amendment to the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance has caused social turmoil, bringing profound impacts. Both the personal incomes of members of the public and the business profits of the trade have been hugely affected. The Government thus proposed the Bill to offer tax concession. In the course of the Government's introduction of the Bill, the authorities have made adjustments according to the actual situation, such as raising the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100%. However, regrettably, this initiative is superficial and the adjustment made is also insignificant.

We have voiced a lot of opinions during the course of deliberation, for example we hope to raise the ceiling of tax concession from $20,000 to $30,000 or to an even higher amount. I have also proposed that the balance of this year's ceiling be brought forward to the next year, because I think Hong Kong might not be able to regain its previous glory or economic environment in the foreseeable future. At present, we can anticipate that Hong Kong's economy cannot be recovered in the near future. We cannot see that Hong Kong can, in the foreseeable future, be able to stop violence and curb disorder, and that the situation can be handled effectively so that Hong Kong can once again be prosperous and stable. Therefore, I hope the balance can be brought forward to the next year. Besides, some fellow colleagues have mentioned whether relief can be made in respect of provisional tax, so that members of the public can be LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1205 relieved of their burdens. In respect of all these opinions, I hope the SAR Government will conduct a detailed study and give due consideration after the Bill is read the Third time and passed.

There is a key point in the current tax concession, i.e. one must pay tax in order to be eligible for the concession. President, this is the case. If a person needs not pay tax, or if he originally had to pay tax, but is excluded from the tax net and is not required to pay tax in future owing to economic downturn and society being destructed, the tax concession concerned is of no use to him. Hence, in a word, the prerequisite of tax rebate is the eligibility to pay tax. Notwithstanding, I hope the Government can deal with two things seriously upon the passage of the Bill after it is read the Third time. First, it has to create a stable atmosphere in society to facilitate the recovery of the economy; second, it has to undertake the pressing task of stopping violence and curbing disorder. If people are still afraid of going out during weekends, not knowing where they can go and having to stay away from troubled spots; or if they dare not go out to make spending or to have meals at Chinese restaurants with their children or grandchildren, worrying about everything …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG Ting-kwong, please return to the subject of this debate.

MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Cantonese): … what should be done? I am now speaking on the Third Reading of the Bill. I hope the Bureau can do a better job after the Bill is read the Third time and passed, so that the 7 million people in Hong Kong can live and work in contentment. This is my ardent aspiration. Thank you, President.

MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill") has come to the stage of Third Reading. If one asked me several months ago whether I supported the Bill, I would certainly say yes, but since last week, I have heard many Members speaking on the amendments. Though I support all the amendments, I still hope that the Secretary can, after the Third Reading, respond to the issues raised by me at this stage. If there are still Members speaking before the voting on the Third 1206 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Reading, I hope they will ask the Financial Secretary to respond to the relief measures proposed by various Members when they spoke on the amendments, so as to convince us, me in particular, to support the Third Reading of the Bill.

I put forward this proposal because the said tax reduction is unable to cope with the current economic environment of Hong Kong. As such, I reiterate that I hope the Secretary will not wait till the completion of the Third Reading to commence a study. Last week and today, he has collated Members' views on measures they hope the Government would implement. I hope the Secretary will at least accept some of our proposals and introduce more relief measures. It would be best if the Government could propose relevant relief measures before the voting on the Third Reading, so as to convince us. At present, I do not know whether I should support the Third Reading of the Bill.

Yesterday, the Census and Statistics Department released the latest figures on the catering industry of Hong Kong. The value of total receipts of the restaurants sector in the third quarter, provisionally estimated at $26.4 billion, decreased by 11.7% over a year earlier, the worst quarterly performance since the outbreak of SARS in the second quarter of 2003; the value of total receipts of bars and Chinese restaurants registered the largest declines, which were 18% and 17.8% respectively; and the provisional estimate of the value of total purchases by restaurants decreased by 10.9% or almost 11% to $8.5 billion. The above figures all indicate that the local catering market obviously worsened in the third quarter. As I said last week, the situation as I knew turned even worse in October, and restaurants in business districts and tourist districts have been hardest hit. Many restaurants have relayed to me that their business turnover in August and September dropped by some 30%. I further learnt on 20 October that the business turnover of the same restaurants had dropped by some 50%. As such, I hope that the Secretary will, after seeing these figures and noting the relief measures requested by Members last week and today, understand why the implementation of these measures should brook no delay. I hope that he or his colleagues can hold discussions with the Financial Secretary on making more efforts.

As far as I know, the Financial Secretary has been working very hard over the past several months to negotiate with various sectors and their representatives. In fact, he is arranging a meeting with the catering industry this week, so as to ascertain their true aspirations and views, with the hope of introducing more relief measures …

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Tommy CHEUNG, please return to the subject of the debate.

MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I get it. I am giving an account of the difficulties. I hope that the Secretary will lobby me to support the Third Reading of the Bill. I have not yet determined whether I will render support. If the Secretary refuses to give me a reply, I will find it difficult to render my support, as my industry is struggling. As such, I hope the President will give his permission. To be fair, as I said last week, I understand that the authorities have their difficulties. Even if the Government wants to introduce more measures that can produce instant results, it must obtain the endorsement of the Legislative Council and the Finance Committee ("FC"). I understand the difficulties involved, but I hope that the authorities will not thus be deterred.

Take for example the relief measures announced by the Financial Secretary on 15 August. The Government indicated that it would waive 27 groups of government fees and charges, but 19 such groups require the making of subsidiary legislation in terms of implementation, and those that relate to the catering industry are trade effluent surcharge, liquor licences, permits and licences for karaoke establishments, marine fish culture licences and livestock keeping licences. In fact, the authorities indicated that the relevant subsidiary legislation would be presented to the Council last month for negative vetting, but the authorities have yet to do so. Under such circumstances, how can I support the Third Reading of the Bill? For this reason, can the Secretary ask his colleagues to present the relevant subsidiary legislation to the Legislative Council immediately―at least I noted that the authorities had not done so yesterday―so that I can explain to my sector more easily why I support the Third Reading of the Bill?

In addition, the authorities have also indicated that the implementation of some of the support measures needs additional resources, and funding applications must be made to FC. The authorities have further indicated that under the SME Financing Guarantee Scheme, a new loan guarantee product would be introduced, a 90% guarantee would be provided for approved loans, the eligibility criteria would be relaxed, and borrowers might apply for principal moratorium of up to 12 months in total. But this is all foam and no beer, as it has yet to be placed on the agenda of FC. Can the Secretary ask, before the 1208 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 voting on the Third Reading, his colleagues to immediately present the relevant item to FC, so as to convince me to feel at ease and support the Third Reading of the Bill?

Certainly, FC is now having a serious backlog of outstanding items, and these urgent support measures must be expeditiously presented to FC for scrutiny. Speaking of addressing a pressing need, the situation is very critical as many restaurants are about to close down. If we still have to wait several months for relief fund, the relevant measures will exist in name only as closure of restaurants are irreversible.

The Crunch Time Instant Relief Fund scheme introduced by the Li Ka Shing Foundation will grant some $200 million to support the catering industry. This is worthy of the Secretary's reference. The scheme is characterized by being simple, speedy, lenient and targeted, making a stark contrast with the relief measures of the authorities. For this reason, may I ask the Secretary again whether he will hold further discussion before the voting on the Third Reading, make reference to the relief measure introduced by the Li Ka Shing Foundation, and allocate funding to support the catering industry, so as to convince me to support the Third Reading of the Bill?

President, I so submit.

MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of the Third Reading of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill").

The original intent of the Bill is to give effect to the proposal in the 2019-2020 Budget to reduce salaries tax, tax under personal assessment and profits tax for the year of assessment 2018-2019 by 75% subject to a ceiling of $20,000 per case.

The escalation of the China-United States trade war and the recent outbreak of a series of unlawful violent clashes in Hong Kong have dealt a double blow to the economy of Hong Kong, seriously affecting various trades and industries and people of all walks of life. The Government has thus introduced several rounds of enhanced relief measures, including raising the percentage for tax reduction to 100% for the year 2018-2019, to be implemented by way of government amendments passed by the Committee earlier.

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President, I have expressed my dissatisfaction about the Bill earlier, particularly the extent of the enhanced relief measures. However, I understand that the Inland Revenue Department is ready to send out the tax demand notes and further delay will not be beneficial to any party. Considering the present circumstances, although we would like to pursue better measures, I would not want to "burn together" as some other people would do because I think that is not the right approach. For those people, things which they dislike or which they are dissatisfied with should be destroyed together. I do not agree to this kind of attitude at all. Thus, I will vote in favour of the Third Reading of the Bill as amended. Although the Secretary said that he could not raise the ceiling of the tax concession from $20,000 to $30,000, I will still support the Third Reading of the Bill. Nevertheless, this does not mean that I am totally satisfied with the content of the Bill and the approach of the Government.

President, the Secretary stated earlier that he has heard the views voiced by Members on relief measures and would consider them. I hope that he will implement the proposals and put in place innovative measures by thinking out of the box, so as to assist various trades and industries and people of all walks of life to walk out from the doldrums.

President, I so submit.

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill").

President, in the past two weeks, we have seriously expressed to the Government our views on the subject, including whether the Bill can resolve the predicament we are now facing. I would also like to point out, as there is a delay in our debate on the Policy Address this year, we will inevitably talk about problems related to the system when we discuss our expectations of the economy. I hope we can adopt a tolerant attitude in this respect. The present situation is very special, and there is no other occasion for us to comprehensively express our views, especially when the Secretary is present.

President, I have pointed out in my previous speeches that raising the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100% is really not enough, but should we not render support in that case? With regard to the policies implemented by 1210 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 the Government, we have always been willing to adopt the "pocket-it-first" attitude. In saying so, I mean to tell the Secretary that the current measure fails to resolve the critical situation, but having something is certainly better than having nothing at all. We should not vote down the concession just because it can only benefit some people. As I said at the last meeting, despite the amendment proposed by the Bureau, many people still thought that people who should be benefited could not be benefited. Some people would inevitably be dissatisfied. The Bureau's relief measure is only a small step forward which fails to cater for the general situation characterized by an economic recession and riots. This measure contributes very litter to ease the general situation.

President, I will not deliver a lengthy speech and I just hope that the Secretary can seriously respond to our proposals which we have given much thoughts but did not have the chance to present them at the meetings of other committees. All such proposals are short-term economic measures to "stop the bleeding' and offer help to shops, restaurants or individuals affected by the disturbances. We should learn from other countries such as the United Kingdom and deal with the problem with flexibility. The Government still maintains that raising the tax reductions from 75% to 100% can solve the problem; yet, it will not work. We really have expectations of the Secretary. Even if other far-reaching problems cannot be solved, I hope the Bureau will think out of the box and have a sense of crisis to change the existing system. For example, regarding disturbances, originally under the restrictions of the law, the compensation mechanism in the United Kingdom could not award compensations to shops without insurance coverage; hence the law was later amended to help the innocent victims of the disturbance, especially the business community and innocent people. I really hope that the Government will think out of the box, that is why I have taken great pains to talk about how the United Kingdom resolved the riot problem. I will not discuss how the United Kingdom handled the disputes, but it had adopted out-of-the-box thinking in introducing certain mechanisms afterwards. To our regret, Hong Kong has failed to learn the lesson.

I hope the Secretary has listened carefully to our remarks these few days. We have made great efforts and each of us has spoken for 15 minutes, 5 minutes or 10 minutes and we hope that the Secretary will respond.

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President, I support the Third Reading. The Secretary is so far the only one who has comprehensively listened to the remarks of a number of Members. I hope the Secretary can convey our views to the appropriate departments or Policy Bureaux and try his best to tackle the problem and take follow-up actions on our behalf.

President, I so submit.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now suspend the meeting until 5:15 pm.

4:36 pm

Meeting suspended.

5:15 pm

Council then resumed.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Steven HO, please speak.

MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): President, we have ultimately come to the final stage, the Third Reading, of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill").

Having listened to the concluding remarks of the Secretary on all the amendments, I am wondering whether he has heard my quotation of the letter from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in reply to a nun. As far as I am concerned, this letter reminds us that when we decide to support or not to support the Third Reading of the Bill, we should not make a decision simply for the sake of making a decision. Rather, we should consider whether this will enable us to have a better future.

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The last lines of the second last paragraph of this letter refer to urban living, food production and water control, and voices have become louder and louder warning of such problems. It is certainly not by accident that we begin to see the tremendous tasks waiting for us at a time when the young space age has provided us the first good look at our own planet.

That said, subsequent to raising the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100% or setting the ceiling at $20,000, members of the public can save $20,000, but do they know what implications the passage of the Third Reading of the Bill will have for society? Will this alleviate grievances in society? I am doubtful about it.

In this round of debate, many Members have actively given their speeches. I hope the SAR Government will understand that members of the public are not only concerned about the Second Reading, Third Reading or even First Reading of the Bill and the tax concessionary measures of the Budget, but also what initiatives the SAR Government will introduce in response to the great changes to people's livelihood and society over the past four months. I am not talking about whether these amendments are reasonable, but I am raising a question as to whether the $20,000 will bring social benefits.

Many Members say that they will ultimately support the amendments, and the final line of my speech at the Second Reading is "I am left with no choice but to support your amendments." This is also the case with the Third Reading. Am I left with no choice? I am still left with no choice. Over the past four months, I have noted the introduction of the amendments by the Government, but failed to see they will be of great help to small and medium enterprises and ordinary taxpayers. Following the incident of Mr Junius HO being stabbed today, can the passage of the Third Reading of the Bill alleviate social grievances before the coming election? I think it will be of no great help.

Carrie LAM has indicated time and again that she will ascertain the problems with the SAR Government in a courageous manner, and make improvements in terms of administration and communication. Has she returned from Shanghai to Hong Kong? I have no idea, but I fail to see any courage on her part.

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Let me quote again a famous line of Albert SCHWEITZER quoted in the last paragraph of the letter: "I am looking at the future with concern, but with good hope." This is the sole factor that enables me to have hope and vote in favour of the Third Reading. Will the Bill be of help to society? I do not know.

I am still gravely concerned, but I will still cast an affirmative vote. This exactly represents my good hope for the future. The first line of the Three-Character Classic says, "People at birth, are naturally good". Are people naturally good at birth? In Chinese culture there are three types of sayings concerning people's natures. Confucius put the issue aside, holding that "their natures are similar; their habits become different"; Xunzi said, "People at birth, are naturally evil"; and Mencius said, "People at birth, are naturally good". But why is it that the first line of the Three-Character Classic reads, "People at birth, are naturally good"? It is because …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Steven HO, please return to the subject of the debate.

MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): I have returned to the subject. I am saying that "I am looking at the future with concern, but with good hope", and I will vote in favour of the Third Reading.

Why is it that the Three-Character Classic put "People at birth, are naturally good" at the very beginning? The reason is that the author hoped the Chinese nation would think positively. And I support the Third Reading of the Bill for the same reason. Will it be a matter of concern if I support its passage? Hong Kong people consider that getting $20,000 is better than none.

However, I will finally have to emphasize that policies introduced by the SAR Government have failed to achieve maximum effect, political effect in particular. Mr Tommy CHEUNG earlier said that the Li Ka Shing Foundation would allocate HK$1 billion to support local small and medium enterprises. This has achieved immediate effect. Of the HK$1 billion, $200 million will be allocated in the first phase, and this has been instantly welcomed by society. Today I will vote in favour of the Third Reading of the Bill. The Government will collect some $18 billion less in revenue, but how much applause and glory 1214 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 can it get? The Government had better learn from the Li Ka Shing Foundation, and spend $200 million in 90 phases to support industries other than the catering industry. Greater effect may be achieved in this way.

I again urge the SAR Government to draw a lesson from the process of First Reading, Second Reading and Third Reading. A Member raising his views has no intention to obstruct the passage of the Bill, but rather hopes that the SAR Government will face up to governance problems, and improve the government bureaucracy, so as to achieve the best result. The Third Reading of the Bill may be unanimously supported, but I hope the Secretary will explain in his speech in a moment the Government's reflections on the current situation and further institutional arrangements. The concluding speech of the SAR Government at the time of moving the amendments at the Committee stage has failed to respond to my request for pondering the underlying message of the letter. I hope the Secretary and other officials will spend some time doing so.

Finally, let me raise one more point. Today, only the Secretary of one Policy Bureau is present, but the Chief Secretary for Administration is also present. I have earlier said that the sheer number of departments of the SAR Government has given rise to governance difficulties. As the Chief Secretary for Administration is present today, I hope that he will clearly see, through the Third Reading, the great difficulties arising from a lack of coordination among government departments. I will for the time being refrain from talking about the implications to him arising from the lack of coordination among the Home Affairs Department, the Leisure and Cultural Services Department and the Lands Department. I hope the Chief Secretary for Administration will do some thorough reflection, and enhance the unity of the entire SAR Government and the trust of the public in the SAR Government.

President, I so submit.

MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): President, the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill") originally sought to implement the proposal in the 2019-2020 Budget to relieve taxpayers' burden. The proposal offers one-off reductions of salaries tax, tax under personal assessment and profits tax for the year of assessment 2018-2019 by 75%, subject to a ceiling of $20,000 per case. Later, owing to the serious internal and external problems facing Hong Kong, the Government proposed to increase the said tax reduction to 100% while retaining the ceiling of $20,000 per case.

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I expressed my support to the Bill in my previous speech. Members of the public have, through the live broadcast, listened to different Members speaking several times on different proposals, especially on the relief measures in the present situation. Many people have then relayed their views to me, some of them even asked me to oppose the proposed reduction and withdraw my support to the Bill as they find it unreasonable.

Among the views I received, most of them are from the middle-class people. They queried why, despite the grave peril in Hong Kong, the ceiling of tax reduction was still retained at $20,000. As the Government had once provided a tax reduction capped at $30,000, they considered the current ceiling of $20,000 far too low. They also asked why we did not propose an amendment to raise the ceiling to $30,000. Certainly, I had explained to them that, technically speaking, it was not possible to propose amendment at this stage. They then asked us to fight for more relief measures and said that we should not support the Third Reading of the Bill if the Government failed to give a positive response.

In fact, it is known to all that the Government has the grass roots in mind when implementing many relief measures, and it has all along ignored the difficulties facing the middle class. For many middle-class families, professionals and small and medium enterprises, they regard that they have been unfairly treated whenever the Government hands out "sweeteners" or introduces relief measures. Even though they contribute most to tax revenues every year, they are excluded from most of the welfare benefits, such as housing and other social welfare. Under the Bill, the tax reduction ceiling is still capped at $20,000 per case, which offers small relief to the middle class living in dire straits today. For those who are not living in a self-owned property, rent takes up the largest part of their expenditure. They certainly want to have their own flat but home purchase is unaffordable to most of them. Therefore, they are forced to live in "nano-flats", tiny flats or even subdivided units, with much of their expenditure goes to rent. Why doesn't the Government do anything to help them other than offering a tax reduction capped at $20,000?

The Chief Executive announced earlier in her Policy Address that a study on the provision of cash allowance on a regular basis would be conducted with the aim of alleviating the rental burden on low-income households not living in public rental housing ("PRH") and not receiving Comprehensive Social Security Assistance. This initiative will in effect regularize the current provision of cash allowance to the "N have-nots" by the Community Care Fund. However, many 1216 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 middle-class people do not own their own flats; worse still, they have neither received social welfare nor applied for PRH. While these people are hard-pressed by the excessive spending on rent, the Government does not seem to have ever given them a helping hand.

Mr Tony TSE has asked the Government to introduce a "rental expenditure allowance". I am convinced by his speech that this excellent idea can help both the middle class and the grass roots ease their rent burden. After several rounds of debate in this Council, many middle-class people have approached me over the past few days, saying that the proposal was commendable in offering direct assistance. With the tax reduction capped at $20,000 as proposed in the Bill and the "rental expenditure allowance", the middle class can get direct assistance. If the Government is willing to take this suggestion on board, it will be really thinking out of the box to provide the middle class, who has never received social welfare, with the most effective relief.

Another view is that the proposed tax reduction of $20,000 will not be a big help to families with children. As we all know, raising one child will cost $4 million and raising two will cost $8 million. That is a huge burden to many families.

Although the Government has, in recent years, implemented a number of measures to strengthen its support to schools and students, these measures mainly target at the grass-roots students and fail to benefit middle-class students. This year, the Policy Address has proposed an annual student grant of $2,500 for each kindergarten, primary school and secondary school student. Though middle-class families will finally be benefited, yet, after listening to our debate, they want me to tell the Government that the tax reduction of $20,000, plus the student grant of $2,500, is far from enough. They want the Government to provide a children's education allowance on a reimbursement basis because, based on their calculation, the monthly education expenditure per child is definitely over $2,500. If the Government introduces an annual allowance of $50,000 for the education of each child, this direct relief will encourage parents to invest more on their children …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Elizabeth QUAT, please return to the subject of this debate.

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MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): President, I am explaining why the middle-class people are unhappy with the tax reduction being capped at $20,000 in the current Bill and why they consider the ceiling too low. They have asked me to bargain with the Government and―if my efforts are in vain―vote against the Bill. This is therefore a significant point. President, in their view, an annual education allowance of $50,000 for each child provided on a reimbursement basis can encourage parents to invest more on their children because children's education involves many expenses other than those on textbook and stationery and school fees. President, as you may know, students have to join one to two extra-school activities every year, and sometimes even overseas visits and study tours. These activities exert great burdens on parents. If they do not let their children join in, the children may feel like they are inferior and being discriminated; if they allow their children to join in, they will have to pay tens of thousands of dollars. So, even if an allowance capped at $50,000 for each child is introduced, it will not be able to cover all of the education expenses. Yet, it can, to a certain extent, ease the heavy burden of the middle-class families.

In fact, the middle class has all along been reluctant to ask for welfare benefits. However, they want the Government to be fair in view of their huge tax contribution. After months of riots in Hong Kong, many middle-class people and professionals begin to worry about their job and income security. Some middle-class people may have low basic salary and live mainly on commission. Yet, they earn less and less in recent months. Without any commission these days, they can only live on their basic salary and are depleting their savings. It is therefore vital to give more support to the middle class and professionals.

President, many middle-class people have also pointed out that, after listening to Members' speeches, they share the concern over our narrow tax base and that Hong Kong, as a whole, will sink deeper into a quagmire if the Government reduces public expenditure in this difficult time when banks are reluctant to grant loans and property owners refuse to lower the rents. As we all know, consumer sentiment is low in the flagging economy. Moreover, overseas investors may not want to invest in Hong Kong for the moment. The Government should hence carry out more works projects to expand public expenditure, thereby stimulating internal demand to achieve the goals of "supporting enterprises, safeguarding jobs and stabilizing the economy" as proposed by the Financial Secretary. President, unfortunately, even if the Government is willing to expedite its projects, or create additional temporary jobs 1218 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 for grass-roots staff as I have suggested before, the Legislative Council may not be able to give the necessary support. That is because funding approval has become a difficult task for the Finance Committee ("FC") and the Government's wish to proceed quickly with its projects cannot be met. After the commencement of the new legislative session, FC, more often than not, can at most approve one funding item in a two-hour meeting. Yet, we are still pleased with this "achievement". Given the slow progress, it will take an extremely long time for FC to approve the upcoming public works projects and other funding items on its agenda. I implore Members of different political parties that, regardless of their political stance and grievances against the Government, they should be aware that Hong Kong is now in great trouble and there are more than 300 000 wage earners in the construction industry and many others in other industries …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Elizabeth QUAT, please return to the subject of this debate.

MS ELIZABETH QUAT (in Cantonese): Fine, I will return to the subject. If we do not act fast to kick start more works projects, their livelihood will be affected. Therefore, I urge Members to speed up FC's funding approval for more government projects to be launched.

President, the shocking news today is also relevant to the Bill under discussion today and whether I and other Members should support the Third Reading. Why do I say so? This morning, the entire community was deeply shocked by the news that Mr Junius HO had been stabbed. Many people have told me their anger and fear. They are more frightened than before because the problem now is no longer vandalism or destruction of shops but the infliction of bodily harm which is life-threatening. They are worried about me and other pro-establishment Members. More importantly, they are worried about their future life; they are worried that the ongoing riots cannot be stopped, that Hong Kong cannot be recovered after a long time and that the Government is unable to stop violence and curb disorder. In their view, the Government is now asking people to support the Bill on tax concessions, yet it seems that the Government is at its wits' end, not knowing how to meet the public demand of stopping violence and curbing disorder. If the Government fails to solve the existing problems for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1219 the people, should we still support the Bill? If the Government fails to make use of its huge fiscal reserves to help the people in distress, should we support the Bill?

Some members of the public asked me to put pressure on the Government by withdrawing our support to the Bill unless it promised to provide more reliefs, relax the application criteria and do more to stop violence and curb disorder. President, I then explained to them, as the Bill had proceed to the stage of Third Reading and the tax reduction capped at $20,000 was important to taxpayers, half a loaf would be better than none. Of course, we are not satisfied with the inadequate concessions. However, if I now vote against the Third Reading of the Bill, taxpayers cannot even have a tax reduction of $20,000 and I may not able to pressurize the Government into taking on board any suggestions made at the past few meetings. Therefore, I would like to tell members of the public that I cannot but vote for the Third Reading of the Bill in tears to allow a smooth passage. After that, we will definitely help the public fight for more reliefs and urge the Government to (The buzzer sounded) … stop violence and curb disorder as soon as possible.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms QUAT, please stop speaking.

MS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of the Third Reading of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill").

President, I have given views for a few times in the Second Reading debate and the Committee stage of the Bill. Originally, the Government proposed to reduce salaries tax, profits tax and tax under personal assessment by 75%, subject to a ceiling of $20,000. However, the Secretary has later proposed an amendment to raise the said tax reduction to 100% while retaining the ceiling of $20,000. This initiative, as we have explained to the Secretary in our earlier discussion and my earlier speeches, can only benefit a small number of taxpayers and I am deeply dissatisfied with it. Suspending the levying of provisional tax for one year is in effect the most direct and immediate way to give substantial support to a great many taxpayers. Secretary, why do you not listen to us?

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The Secretary kept repeating the same thing over and over in the Second Reading debate and the Committee stage just now. It is not that we do not understand the tax regime. We just want the Secretary to introduce measures which can truly help the people. President, regarding the amendment which increases the tax reduction to 100%, we will certainly support its passage during the Third reading for we have no choice. If we do not support its passage, not even these small concessions will be available to the public. However, this is not the best way to ease people's burden. The Secretary kept talking about the tax regime, but I have already repeatedly told him in my earlier speeches or even at the meetings of the Panel on Financial Affairs that I have no problem with understanding the regime. My point is that immediate reliefs should be granted to help the people. The tax reduction now proposed by the Bureau is of little help, if any, to the general public. Instead, they want the levy of provisional tax to be suspended for a year. Why can't the Government do that? We actually know the reasons as the Secretary loves to talk about impacts. But don't the current tax concessions and other initiatives have impacts? Doesn't the Secretary know that special measures should be taken at special times? Is he going to act like the Lands Department, which insists on sticking to the rules as usual when people out there are fighting for their livelihood? Hong Kong is now in dire straits, can the Secretary take special measures at special times?

President, although I will support the Third Reading, I do not think the proposed measures can sufficiently help the people. I have a word for the Secretary. Recently, we have been asked by members of the public whether the delivery of tax demand notes will be postponed if the Bill cannot get passed or if its scrutiny is prolonged. They prefer to have an extended scrutiny in the Council as they will be angry when they receive their tax demand note. Just now, some Honourable colleagues demanded the Government to stop violence and curb disorder, and urged for a solution to the root problem of our society. Yet, if the Government fails to do so and members of the public then receive their tax demand note, don't you think they will be even angrier? If the Government wants us to support the Third Reading, the Secretary or the Government should do something to gain our support. Is that right?

We are lucky to have the Chief Secretary with us today. Chief Secretary, this morning, Vice-premier of the State Council HAN Zheng called for the restoration of law and order in Hong Kong society. A few days ago, State President also highlighted the importance of social order to the current problems in Hong Kong. If the Government wishes the Legislative Council to support the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1221

Third Reading and passage of the Bill, should it show a little sincerity? Members are longing for its response after pointing out the root problems in our debate which has lasted for days. I am not sure whether we will later only have a response from the Secretary or get no response at all. Yet, I demand a serious response from the Government.

I have to tell the public once again that even though we will support the Third Reading, we do not think the Bill has given us the best option. There is indeed one better option, i.e. suspending the collection of provisional tax for one year. This is how the Government can truly grant reliefs to many people and gain their applause. At this very moment, can the Government take special measures to deal with the special situation?

President, in the earlier reply of the Secretary, he has in fact failed to answer a Member's question, i.e. Why doesn't the Government raise the ceiling of tax reduction while increasing the percentage for reduction from 75% to 100%? As pointed out by a Member, the ceiling of tax reduction was at times higher than $20,000 in the past. Why can't this ceiling be raised now?

As a matter of fact, the Secretary has failed to answer our questions as he just repeated the same points over and again in his earlier reply. We do not see any willingness on the part of the Government to take special measures at special times. It should at least be willing to propose some additional amendments to the Bill to benefit more people.

We support the Third Reading of the Bill simply because the increase in the percentage for tax reduction 75% to 100% can, at the very least, benefit a small number of taxpayers. However, the Secretary and the Chief Secretary should note that I will be happy to support other future proposals, such as waiving provisional tax for one year, or introducing tax measures after review to grant more far-reaching reliefs. Upon the Third Reading and passage of the Bill, will the Government consider reviewing the Ordinance and propose other necessary amendments to benefit more people? Otherwise, when people get their tax demand note, they will bitterly complain why the Government dares ask for tax payment when it has done nothing to help. Right now, everyone in Hong Kong is angry with the Government. Does the Government know that? In the eyes of the public, the Government has failed to maintain law and order in society. Every weekend, we have to plan our activity based on the "schedule" of some 1222 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 others. Worse still, when shops were damaged and Angong Niuhuang Wan1 and mobile phones were taken, the Government could not give the owners any help. Under this circumstance, the Government says it will offer more tax concessions by, for example, amending the Bill to increase the tax reduction from 75% to 100%. I am really "grateful" to this "big help". Can the Government do something which is appropriate to the current situation and propose specific reliefs to ease people's suffering?

President, I once said that, before the outbreak of the incidents over the past few months, we met with the Chief Secretary early this year to discuss the current tax reduction proposal. At that time, we had already asked the Chief Secretary to consider waiving the provisional tax. When we made this request to the Chief Secretary a few months ago, he kept talking around issues like how the tax regime worked. Yet, a lot of special incidents have happened over the past few months. Why can't the Government listen to us and take special measures at special times? The major criticism of this Bill is that while the Government has proposed to raise the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100%, it refuses to raise the ceiling and retain it at $20,000.

Both the Secretary and the Chief Secretary are present at the moment. I urge them to do more to help the people out so that they will not get mad when they receive their tax demand note. In fact, members of the public now want us to prolong the scrutiny in the Council as they do not want to get the tax demand note. I was asked by many whether it was true that they would receive tax demand notes at a later date if the scrutiny of the Bill dragged on to delay its passage. Why are the people so mad with the government? That is because even if I support the Third Reading of the Bill and the tax concession proposed therein is introduced to raise the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100%, these small favours will by no means be effective reliefs to the people.

Therefore, I hope the Secretary and the Chief Secretary will listen to the people's voice. Firstly, they should seriously consider the suggestion of The Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions to suspend the collection of provisional tax for one year in their future proposal for tax concession. Secondly, they should address the root problems, provide social and financial support to the people and restore social order to what it was a few months ago to pacify

1 A proprietary Chinese medicine LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1223 taxpayers. Otherwise, when we receive our tax demand note, I am afraid that everyone will blame the Secretary, making him sneeze. Well, another name appears on the tax demand note. He is the Commissioner of Inland Revenue, right? Everyone in Hong Kong will blame him too.

The Government should consider our views and truly deal with the root problems. Stopping violence and curbing disorder cannot be all talk. Even the State President and the Vice-premier of the State Council have highlighted this need. As the Government gets taxes from the people, it should stop violence and curb disorder seriously, shouldn't it?

President, I will support the Third Reading. Thank you.

MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, it has come to the Third Reading of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill"). Members from DAB and I will support the Bill. I know that the Secretary has made great efforts lately in the hope that we will complete the scrutiny of the Bill expeditiously to allow taxpayers to enjoy the tax concessions as early as possible. We have absolutely no intension to hinder taxpayers from enjoying the tax concessions, but Ms Alice MAK has just now revealed in her speech the heartfelt feelings of many citizens, that is, they do not mind a delay in receiving the tax demand notes because they are very angry when they think of having to pay tax to the Government.

First, the Government is at its wits' end in restoring public order, stopping violence and curbing disorder. People are still frightened when they go out on weekends these days. Second, as we have said before, in the face of the great challenges to the global economy including the uncertainties of the China-United States trade war, Hong Kong, being a small economy, cannot be spared from the arm-wrestling between the two countries. Consequently, for enterprises engaging in import and export trade, especially the small and medium ones, their orders have declined. Apart from the China-United States trade war, another important issue is Brexit and other developed economies have yet to see an economic recovery. As such, various enterprises have been deeply affected. Third, in this small economy of Hong Kong, the present riot has been going on for almost five months, the effects on various industries have fully surfaced. Members representing various industries, especially the catering, tourism, transport and construction industries have all voiced great grievances. If the 1224 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

Secretary runs in an election and has direct contacts with the public, I am sure he will have a deeper understanding of their plights. Hence, the legislative amendments and even all relief measures submitted by him may be more down-to-earth.

After a round of debate and the meeting of the Panel on Financial Affairs, many Members have put forward a number of pragmatic views, but it is a shame that so far, the Secretary has not yet specifically responded to the measures put forward by Members earlier, including the proposal to increase the rate of tax concession from 75% to 100%. Under the present economic environment, many small and medium enterprises ("SMEs") have insufficient cash flow. They not only worry about closing down, but also not having money to pay their employees. They thus hope that the Government can hold over their tax payments. I have asked the Secretary at the last meeting of the Panel on Financial Affairs, but he has yet to give me an official answer. Does he have a clearer answer today?

It is rare to see the Chief Secretary for Administration present at the meeting. As the Government understands the operation difficulties of enterprises, can it take the lead to negotiate with some major consortiums, like Link REIT or big real estate developers, for a rent reduction to lessen the burden of enterprises? It seems that the Government has failed to do so. I know that the Government has reduced the rents of some of the government properties, but that is not enough. As a matter of fact, rental payment exerts big pressure. I hope that after the Bill is passed, first, taxpayers will enjoy the tax concessions; and second, the Government has to understand why the public and Members have put forward their views. At present, in respect of relieving the plights of the public or stopping violence and curbing disorder, the Government has failed to achieve any specific or targeted effects, which has come short of public expectations. I hope that the Government will make a response on these areas later on. Should the Chief Secretary have any response, I am all ears.

Apart from tax concessions, I believe the general public earnestly hope that after the passage of the Bill, the Government will not slacken its effort to restore public order, stop violence and curb disorder. The Chief Executive has met with Vice-premier HAN Zheng today. The Central Authorities and even the general public in Hong Kong are anxious to see the restoration of public order. I think the Chief Secretary bears a great responsibility in this respect.

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In the past few months, members of the public have been bitterly disappointed with the Government's overall performance in restoring public order, especially in coordinating different departments. We all have the impression that only the Police are "fighting" while other departments have no coordinated actions at all. Chief Secretary, as the Chief Secretary, do you see this as a crisis or have you considered forming a crisis intervention team to step up the coordination among various departments so as to restore public order, stop violence and curb disorder?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Starry LEE, please return to the subject of this debate.

MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): I hope that the Chief Secretary will respond to my question.

President, I wish to point out what the Government should do after the Bill is passed. We all understand that the passage of the Bill does not only involve the work related to finance. The aim of the Bill is to help enterprises. Aside from raising the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100%, it is more important for the Government to resolve the most urgent crisis after receiving the tax revenue, and I think the most pressing task at present is to stop violence and curb disorder. I think the Chief Secretary is duty-bound to coordinate various departments and Policy Bureaux. Yet, I fail to see that the Government has specific framework to strength the coordination, or that it has formulated specific improvement measures to truly restore public order in future, so that people will have no fears in going out during weekends and enterprises will know when business will return to normal and feel at ease in doing business. I wonder if the Chief Secretary will respond to these questions today, but it is a very important task and I believe the coordination of various departments is one of the most important tasks of the Chief Secretary's portfolio. Please show everyone that the Government can have stronger coordination power.

President, after the Bill is passed, first, all taxpayers can enjoy tax concessions; second, I think the Government must consider setting up a crisis intervention team immediately to enhance the coordination among various departments to restore public order expeditiously; and third, I find the Bill very special in the sense that it is the first bill debated in the Legislative Council after 1226 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 more than four months of rioting in Hong Kong. Over these months, the general public and enterprises have had great grievances. They may want the Government to do many things, and we have taken advantage of the debate of the Bill to express these feelings of the public. The people also expect the Government to learn from the recent rioting and take the lead in reforming the Government and society to resolve the deep-rooted conflicts.

The Chief Secretary has said that this Policy Address is "unusual, untraditional and unconventional". He has also said that the address will break away from some old and inherent thinking. However, whether it can be done, I believe, is not to be determined by the Chief Secretary by writing the objectives in his blog; rather, he has to ask the public if they have a feeling that the Policy Address is truly "unusual, untraditional and unconventional".

The same applies to the Secretary, and I have once raised some criticisms. The Secretary should recall that at the last meeting of the Panel on Financial Affairs, I purposely asked him for his speaking note because I wanted to see how the Secretary could, within his portfolio, take the lead in reforming the government in an "unusual, untraditional and unconventional" manner to resolve the deep-rooted conflicts in Hong Kong. However, I am sorry to say that after reading very carefully his 10-page speaking note of more than 7 000 words, covering issues ranging from private equity funds to the Agreements for Avoidance of Double Taxation and others, I did not find that the Secretary has, in his opening speech, taken into consideration how the present rioting has affected his Bureau's ambit in the Policy Address. Neither has the Secretary told us whether he has reviewed the deep-rooted conflicts within his Bureau's ambit and whether he has proposed any solutions in the Policy Address. As I see it, the Bureau fails to respond to the people's aspirations. As a matter of fact, the present crisis is unprecedented after the reunification, and the Bill is the first bill to be passed after the resumption of the Legislative Council. Of course, we hope that members of the public can enjoy tax concessions but we hope even more earnestly that the Government can enhance the coordination among various departments to restore public order.

We also see the extensive impact of the riot. Many people have come out to express their dissatisfaction with society and their views on the Government. The Government must take the lead to initiate reforms on its own and reform society. These must be manifested in the Policy Address and all policy agendas. Hence, I hope that the Government will not halt its work after the passage of the Bill and will meet the expectations of the public with pragmatic actions.

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Lastly, I earnestly hope that the Government will also take the lead to help all shops in Hong Kong. The Financial Secretary has introduced a series of relief measures to address the pressing needs of various industries. But of course, should the measures be more targeted and provide more direct help to enterprises? As a matter of fact, from the speeches of many Members, the Chief Secretary should have learnt that Members have compared his measures with the Crunch Time Instant Relief Fund provided by the Li Ka Shing Foundation. As Hong Kong is in an exceptionally dire state, will the Financial Secretary consider how to facilitate enterprises and shops when formulating relief measures?

I noticed that the Chief Secretary has recently visited the Xinhua News Agency which was vandalized―I have challenged the Secretary earlier and I wonder if he will respond later―but have they taken the lead to visit shops being vandalized? Now enterprises with Mainland background, such as the Bank of China, China Travel Service (Hong Kong) Limited and other enterprises that have connections with China are vandalized for no reason at all. Have they, as government officials who are like parents of the people, visited those shops? What can they do to help?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms Starry LEE, please return to the subject of this debate.

MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, the Chief Secretary has never answered me in the past but this point is very important. He should at least show that he cares and propose specific measures to assist the innocent victims, so that they can feel the care of government officials, rather than pretending that nothing has happened and continuing to hole up in his office to formulate policies.

Well, President, I hope that the Chief Secretary or Secretary will make some responses when they speak later. As I have repeatedly pointed out, this Bill is the first bill to be passed after the resumption of the Legislative Council. I do not see it as simply a bill; but as a new beginning. Apart from providing taxpayers with tax concessions, the authorities must form a crisis intervention team to step up the coordination of various departments to achieve the goal of restoring law and order, stopping violence and curbing disorder.

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Third, various departments and heads of departments have to take the lead to resolve the deep-rooted conflicts in society and reform the Government and Hong Kong.

Fourth, the Government must reconsider how to provide assistance to industries, people and shops that have been adversely affected. That is what the Government should do.

President, I so submit.

MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): President, I speak in support of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 ("the Bill").

The Bill aims at implementing the proposal of the Financial Secretary by offering a one-off reduction of salaries tax, tax under personal assessment and profits tax for the year 2018-2019. The Financial Secretary proposes to increase the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100%, but the ceiling per case has not been adjusted accordingly. It has neither been restored to the level of $30,000 as in 2017-2018, nor to $40,000 as proposed by the Liberal Party, but remains at $20,000, which is insufficient at this stage.

As a matter of fact, as my party comrade Mr Tommy CHEUNG pointed out last week, originally only wage earners making $28,000 per month on average were exempted from paying tax, but if the Government accepted the Liberal Party's proposal to raise the ceiling to $40,000 per case, people making less than $39,500 a month on average would also be exempted. It was estimated that about 350 000 taxpayers would benefit.

According to the Government, after the rate of tax reduction was raised, among those 2.05 million cases that already enjoyed the relief measure, 1.43 million will further benefit by paying about $250 to $5,000 less in tax. In face of the present economic recession, wage earners may be forced to take no pay leave and their incomes may fall, while micro, small and medium enterprises ("MSMEs") may suffer a business slump. For the general public and MSMEs, every penny saved counts. Though the increase in the percentage for tax reduction is an insignificant favour, it is better than nothing at all. Besides, after the increase, government revenue will only be reduced by $20.7 billion of the total tax revenue of $340 billion in 2018-2019, taking up about 6%, or less than 10%, which will not have any significant impact on government revenue.

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Among the some 2 million taxpayers who have to pay salaries tax and tax under personal assessment, 1.91 million taxpayers, or over 90%, will benefit from the Government's tax concession. Among the over 170 000 companies required to pay profits tax, more than 140 000, over 80%, will benefit from the Government's tax concession. Even though there is still room for improvement, the tax concession measure can benefit most taxpayers.

President, with the shadow of the China-United States trade war hovering over us and the ongoing social unrest, MSMEs' room for survival continue to shrink and some of them are at the brink of closing down. The operation condition of MSMEs is of utmost importance to the economic development and employment stability of Hong Kong. At present, MSMEs represent about 98% of all enterprises in Hong Kong, and they employ about 46% of all employees of private organizations over the territory. Once MSMEs fail to withstand this blow, it will set off waves of layoffs and business closures. Hence, the operation of MSMEs is of utmost importance to the economic development and employment stability of Hong Kong.

For MSMEs, the profits tax concession proposed by the Government is now capped at $20,000. The amount, though rather small, still helps. Therefore, the Liberal Party supports the Third Reading of the Bill. In this year's Budget, the Financial Secretary estimated that the total government revenue for 2019-2020 would be more than $600 billion, with a surplus of $16.8 billion and the Government's fiscal reserves would be over $1,100 billion. With such hefty surpluses and fiscal reserves, the Government is well capable of taking more drastic relief measures other than merely providing a profits tax concession capped at $20,000. The Liberal Party hopes that the Government will think out of the box and provide more effective relief measures for MSMEs, which are barely surviving, and the general public to stimulate economic growth.

As the economic recession continues, the Financial Secretary announced a series of relief measures on 15 August and 22 October. However, representatives of the logistic industry told me that their benefits were insignificant as the relief measures only included the waiving of the business registration fee and the profits tax concession capped at $20,000 under discussion today. Hence, the logistic industry strongly supports the profits tax concession capped at $20,000. However, in face of the declining volume of cargo handled by Hong Kong, particularly air freight cargo with a double digit decline recorded in August, air freight operators hope that the Airport Authority Hong Kong 1230 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019

("AA") will reduce the handling fees of air freight cargo, so as to lower their costs and at the same time enhance the competitiveness of Hong Kong's air freight cargo handling services.

The Secretary may recall that at the Second Reading debate, I mentioned that I received the views of many stakeholders of the Hong Kong International Airport ("Airport"), including non-franchised bus operators and the contractors of various services provided in the Airport. They all hoped that during this difficult time, the rents and other fees in the Airport could be lowered. However, AA has recently notified them that it had no intention to reduce any rents or fees at the present stage, but would enhance the promotion of their services to attract more visitors to use the Airport. This is contradictory to the Financial Secretary's remarks when he announced the relief measures on 15 August that AA would announce its relief measures at a different time.

Before public order is restored and society returns to normal, I believe it will be difficult to increase the number of visitors. The Government has taken the lead to reduce the rents of short-term tenancy tenants by half for six months and call upon landlords to reduce the rent to tide over the difficulties with tenants. Given that AA is a statutory organization wholly owned by the Hong Kong SAR Government, the Liberal Party and I hope that the Secretary of Department and Director of Bureau relay this message to the Financial Secretary, and we also hope that the Financial Secretary will follow up and honour his promises made previously.

President, tax concessions have been implemented for years, which, in the eyes of the Government, may be the most convenient and straightforward relief measure. The tax concessions proposed by the Government this time could be a rather good idea if it was not introduced in such a difficult time. The present adverse economic environment is unprecedented in Hong Kong. Hence, the Government should take unusual measures at these unusual times. Aside from routine measures like handing out sweeteners, it should also take multi-pronged measures to benefit more people.

With these remarks, President, I support the Third Reading of the Bill.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

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MS CHAN HOI-YAN (in Cantonese): President, this Council has now proceeded to the Third Reading of the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill ("the Bill"). I reiterate that I support this Bill, but not with delight, but with great grievances which I must get off my chest.

The main content of the Bill include increasing the percentage for tax reduction of salaries tax, profits tax and tax under personal assessment from the present 75% to 100% for the year of assessment 2018-2019, while retaining the ceiling of $20,000 per case. I want to say that the Bill has failed to respond appropriately to the difficult economic situation currently faced by us.

Last Thursday, the Census and Statistics Department released the estimates on Gross Domestic Product ("GDP") for the third quarter. According to the advance estimates, GDP decreased by 2.9% in real terms in the third quarter of this year from a year earlier. For the first three quarters as a whole, the Hong Kong economy contracted by 0.7% over a year earlier. On a seasonally adjusted quarter-to-quarter comparison, the fall in real GDP widened to 3.2% in the third quarter from 0.5% in the preceding quarter. According to the Government, the estimates indicated that the Hong Kong economy has entered a technical recession.

As seen from the above data, the Government should be well aware of how bad the current economic environment of Hong Kong is. If it is unaware of the situation, we can explain to the Government how bad the economic environment is, but the Government has remained indifferent even though it has a good grasp of the situation. This is really puzzling to us. Does the Government still think that the Bill can help a lot of people? Economic data indicated that the weakening economic conditions have dampened consumer sentiment and resulted in weak consumer spending. Coupled with the recent social unrest and series of large-scale demonstrations, the retail, catering and other consumption-related sectors have been severely disrupted. Private consumption expenditure recorded its first year-on-year decline in more than 10 years, economic confidence has sagged and the fall in overall investment expenditure steepened.

Some economic analysts and experts highlighted that it could basically be confirmed that in the coming period of time, the overall economic situation in Hong Kong would show a downward trend. As for the economic outlook, it can be said that the signal is very pessimistic. In the face of such situation, even the passage of the Bill cannot provide a temporary relief.

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As learnt from past information, technical recession in Hong Kong was recorded last time during the financial tsunami of 2008. However, unlike back then, the present economic recession in Hong Kong is the result of a series of movements of opposition to the proposed legislative amendments lately. Social unrest has taken place for nearly five months. It can be said that we are blatantly suffering from the impact brought by both internal and external troubles, which have not only worsened the already sluggish economic situation, but may even lead to a recession that is more ferocious and has more profound implications than that of 2008.

I did hear many people, including members of the public who will benefit from this Bill, say that they pay tax with great sadness and reluctance this year. This is particularly so for people from the middle class who have been working diligently over the past years. They work hard not only to support their parents, but probably to take care of their children as well. Upon receipt of the demand notes, taxpayers are obliged to pay tax out of their pockets. Despite the hardship, they are obliged to pay tax so as to fulfil their civic responsibility, build Hong Kong together, contribute to their homeland and make preparation for the next generation. However, such belief has been completely shattered in recent months.

They not only feel very disappointed, but also find it difficult to understand what has happened when seeing the community built with toil and hard work being damaged time and again over the past few months. Let me cite a recent example concerning this building. The Bill should have been discussed before the recess of the Legislative Council in July, but as we all know, the Legislative Council Complex was severely vandalized by some radicals on 1 July. Window walls were destroyed, lifts were damaged, the CCTV system and even the table and chair that the President is now using were damaged beyond repair. The radicals did not even spare the security staff's personal belongings being kept in the lockers, ruining their family photos and uniforms …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms CHAN Hoi-yan, please return to the subject of this debate.

MS CHAN HOI-YAN (in Cantonese): President, this is absolutely relevant and later I will explain why the vandalism is related to taxation.

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If we do not talk about the Legislative Council Complex, let us talk about public transport. At present, nearly all MTR stations in Hong Kong have been vandalized, with their ticket gates, add value machines, ticket issuing machines and lifts being destroyed. If Members do not believe in my words, just go to the MTR stations in Sham Shui Po, Yau Ma Tei and Tsim Sha Tsui to see for themselves. In fact, many MTR stations in Hong Kong have only one lift, but even the one lift was not spared. It should be noted that many elderly persons, patients, people with disabilities and even parents with strollers have to rely on the lifts to get to the MTR stations. While some people keep destroying the lifts, other people hailed their success in getting the damaged lifts repaired. And yet, why is it necessary to repair the lifts if they are not damaged? I am actually getting more furious as I speak.

Many people claim that these facilities are just dead objects and there is no point to be so nervous. However, just think, given that these dead objects are used to serve members of the public and facilitate their living, the repeated destruction of these dead objects is tantamount to causing disruptions to the living of the grass roots at large. Is that what we want? Is it necessary for such incidents to take place in our society?

President, just now you said that my speech was irrelevant to this debate, so I am going to explain why my speech is relevant as all the destructions mentioned above are closely related to the Bill. Who is responsible for repairing the destructed buildings or facilities? Where does the money for repairing come from? Where does the money for repairing the chair of the President come from? Is the repair of destructed public properties free of charge? Some people may say that the Government will foot the bill and this is a way to penalize the Government. And yet, the major source of government revenue is taxation, payable by taxpayers. This is precisely an issue of the Bill under discussion. Tax payments are usually used to construct facilities, but they have now been used to repair damaged facilities instead. While taxpayers work hard to earn money, they have to suffer from the troubles caused by the destruction of facilities and the facilities were destroyed before they were put to use. Thus, it is not difficult to imagine the feelings of taxpayers upon receipt of the tax demand notes this year. The present tax concessions proposed by the Government have only slightly reduced the amount of tax payment. Taxpayers will certainly feel very dissatisfied and reluctant when they pay tax. They do not get the slightest pleasure from the concessionary measures, nor do they have a feeling of relief as claimed by the Government.

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I would like to stress again that I always support the presence of diverse voices in society and believe that everyone should have their grievances heard. Nonetheless, it does not mean that they can use illegal or destructive means to express their aspirations, or deprive other people of their rights. I would like to point out that violence would only give rise to more violence. Over the past period of time, many facilities, shops and banks have been vandalized and people with divergent political views have been attacked. Our society has changed. Persistent chaos will cause serious and irreparable damage to the Hong Kong economy. Of course, I must also point out that the Government has failed to properly handle the incident of opposition to the proposed legislative amendments, and its ways of handling can be further improved.

Take this Bill as an example. It can be said that the relief measures are inadequate. The Government's amendment proposes to increase the percentage for tax reduction from the original 75% to 100%, but why was the ceiling retained at $20,000 per case? Secretary of Department and Director of Bureau, I really want you to answer this question. I do not understand why the ceiling cannot be raised when it was $30,000 last year. We are facing a severe recession this year. Even if the officials fail to understand the situation, but just as I have said earlier on, the Government has already published the relevant economic data. Hong Kong is entering a period of recession, so in the face of such a bad situation, why did the Government not raise the ceiling altogether when amendments were proposed in August?

President, the Secretary has been present at the meeting for many days and has heard different proposals put forward by a number of Members. In fact, Members do share a common view on this Bill. The majority of us consider the Government's amendments desirable, even if the benefits are limited, but it is better than nothing. Notwithstanding that, Members do not understand why the Government has not implemented many other feasible measures to help the general public, the middle class and the small and medium enterprises ("SMEs"). Members have specifically put forward some simple proposals that enable members of the public to genuinely feel the support of the Government, for example, just now a Member suggested that the Government should exempt the payment of provisional tax. This initiative is not only more effective than rate waiver or the proposed tax reduction in relieving the burdens of the people and enterprises, but can also enable people to feel the support of the Government. Can the Government seriously consider these proposals and pay district visits to listen to views on what can be done to genuinely help the community at large?

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Before proposing the amendments, the Financial Secretary had described the current economic situation as extremely challenging. Then why did he still propose the present relief measures in a slipshod manner? Why did he only increase the percentage for tax reduction without considering the provision of exempting the payment of provisional tax? There are so many elites in the Government and they should be able to come up with some practical ideas to remedy the situation. If they really cannot think of any initiatives, they should go to the community to inquire and listen with a humble mind. They should also talk to owners of the affected shops and restaurants to find out what assistance can be provided to them, and what do they think about the tax reduction of $20,000. Two days ago, I went to Sham Shui Po for a meal and the restaurant owner told me that he had to dismiss some staff in order to survive. The provision of tax reduction by the Government would not offer much help. Therefore, if government officials dine out, I am sure they would think of many other ways to help members of the public, and draw references from some flexible and tactical approaches.

Government officials can draw good reference from a measure which has recently been implemented. It is the Crunch Time Instant Relief Fund ("the Fund") provided by Li Ka Shing Foundation to support SMEs. Each qualified SMEs in the food and beverage industry can receive a grant of $60,000. The merits of the Fund include simple application procedure, causing no disturbance to the public and expeditious granting of funds as the money is expected to be distributed this month. Even if government officials do not visit districts, they should have learnt from news reports about how the Fund operates. Going back to that restaurant in Sham Shui Po which I mentioned earlier on, the owner welcomed the Fund and thought that $60,000 could be used for rent payment. Although business during weekends has dropped not only by half, but by 90%, he still needs to pay rent, staff wages and electricity charges. The $60,000 can exactly meet the urgent needs. Also, as no vetting and approval of the applications is required, the process is thus very swift. When compared with one of the amendments proposed in the Bill under discussion today to increase the percentage for tax reduction from 75% to 100% with a ceiling of $20,000, which one is more practical? Needless to say, the answer should be clear to Secretary of Department and Director of Bureau present at the meeting.

The Government may say that tax reduction is not the only measure adopted to help SMEs, the provision of licence fee waiver can also help the owners of restaurants. What do they think about this waiver? I asked the 1236 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 restaurant owner for his views about the licence fee waiver. It turns out that the Government only grants licence fee waiver to food premises under the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department, and the fee incurred is just a few thousand dollars. If the fee waiver is expressed on a monthly basis, the few thousand dollars are equivalent to a monthly subsidy ranging from $100-odd to $1,000-odd. Worse still, the fee waiver will only be introduced next year, which means that only the licence fees of next year will be waived. Comparatively speaking, the distribution of money under the Fund is much faster than the Government's waiver.

This is precisely why I said while I support the Bill proposed by the Administration, I am fully aware of the grievances and reluctance of many people. I do not understand why the Government is still unable to introduce better amendments amidst such a bad and ferocious economic downturn. Tax relief should be something that makes everyone happy, but given that the Government is fully aware of the challenging economic condition at present, it should introduce proposals, amendments or relief measures that can truly help the people of Hong Kong. The poor people cannot hang on any longer. Every day we can see objects burned and vandalized on the streets, and our tax payment is used for the repair works. Why would anyone be willing to pay tax then?

With regard to this Bill, a number of our colleagues have put forward different proposals and suggested many approaches. I hope that the Secretary of Department and Director of Bureau will listen carefully, and demonstrate their determination to improve the economy of Hong Kong. Owing to the poor economic environment, many people's jobs are at stake, so how can they regain confidence? In fact, we do not need any economic forecasts because I can predict that after Christmas when Lunar New Year comes in January next year, many people will be unemployed and cannot even make ends meet. Therefore, once the Bill is passed, the Government should expeditiously explore concrete and speedy approaches that can truly help members of the public, not only to get their lives back on track, but also to free them from any threat, so that everyone can live happily and Hong Kong can relive the glorious past. I so submit.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?

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MR ABRAHAM SHEK: President, I have been here for a long, long time in this Council. I have never seen such interest being stirred up on a Third Reading on an Inland Revenue (Amendment) Bill as this time.

President, the subject is rather dry and it is not really interesting, particularly having listened to so many legislators asking the Government to give, to give, to give. The Government definitely has the ability to give, particularly in this particular time when everything seems so dark. The future is not written on the wall but our future is so gloomy that everyone can see it. It is not like the end of the tunnel, it is likened to another train coming in the opposite direction.

And yet the Government is so stingy in its provision of tax concessions to be given in this 2019-2020 Budget in which the Financial Secretary has proposed a one-off reduction of profits tax, salaries tax and tax under personal assessment for the year of assessment 2018-2019 by 75%, subject to a ceiling of $20,000 per case. Twenty thousand dollars appears to be fair but not so at this crucial time when everybody is trying to save something for the rainy days. The Government should come in and help. Given that Hong Kong's economy is facing significant downward pressure, the Financial Secretary's proposal to further increase the tax concessions to 100% seems to be very generous. And 1.4 million taxpayers will benefit from a further saving of $1.84 billion.

The $1.84 billion will certainly provide meagre relief to some taxpayers. However, instead of strengthening taxpayers' capability to provide foster care to their family members, this stingy concession is merely better than having nothing instead of bringing actual financial assistance to taxpayers and their families.

During the consultation period for last year's Budget, my party, the Business and Professionals Alliance for Hong Kong ("BPA"), had proposed to increase the ceiling of tax concessions to $35,000, a slight increase of $5,000 only, when compared with the $30,000 ceiling for the year of assessment 2017-2018. However, instead of accepting BPA's proposal, the Financial Secretary has decreased the ceiling by $10,000 while our community and economy is facing an even tougher and a more difficult situation, particularly given what happened during the last six months. I really wonder what kind of approach the Financial Secretary has adopted in deciding on the latest tax concessions. Probably, Mr James Henry LAU, you must have a bad influence on him, or else he would have given more. So, this is time for you to make 1238 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 amends and convince him to give more, more and more. Besides keeping our expenditure within the limits of revenues, the Financial Secretary should provide proper and actual assistance to local enterprises and send comforts to our citizens who have endured hardship over this period of six months.

During the last year or so, particularly in the last couple of months, the Sino-American trade war has not only affected Hong Kong's economy but also created a negative impact on the global economy. The anti-extradition bill protests have caused a severe blow to our retail, tourism, aviation, export industries, practically touching on every single aspect of our society. As estimated, Hong Kong will record a negative economic growth for the year and slipped into a technical recession. Given that the statistics and actual impact could be lagging behind, our situation might be far worse in the future. Massive layoffs and closure of enterprises are anticipated. I hope this is not true. There is a hearsay that the unemployment rate of the catering industry has increased to 6%, a record high over the last six years. Visitor arrivals record a year-on-year decline of 39.1%. Mainland visitors have already decreased by 42.3%. Some believe that we are facing a situation even more critical than that after the SARS outbreak.

After the SARS outbreak, the Central Authorities supported Hong Kong with the introduction of the Individual Visit Scheme so that Hong Kong's economy could bounce back rapidly. And it did. Besides, we were, as a community, united in 2003. Workers and employers shared the spirit of mutual understanding and were willing to tide over difficulties together. But what happens now? We have seen divisions within families, divisions in the community and divisions between the people and the Government. It is really sad. But now, our society has even torn further and no one can tell when these violent protests will cease. Our deep-rooted problems might remain a persistent thorn in Hong Kong. Therefore, I sincerely hope the SAR Government―Chief Secretary, you are here, thank you―will listen to all the voices expressed in the community, listen to all the voices expressed in the Chamber, listen to the voices of the poor and think out of the box. This is still time for you to open your financial safe to give us, particularly the people who need your help, extra money through concessions. You should give them not only tax concessions, but also money so that they can spend properly and let the economy benefit from the excess money you give them.

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Leveraging on our sound fiscal reserve, the SAR Government should introduce more measures to relieve the hardship of our citizens. Difficult times require difficult and innovating measures aimed at stabilizing our employment, our economy and our society as a whole.

This is the time for the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary in absentia to show leadership. We want leadership. We want them to take us out to a new place where we can find harmony, prosperity and stability.

President, I know that I am speaking a little bit outside the scope of the Third Reading, but I thought that this timing of the Third Reading is so relevant for us to urge the Government to be more sympathetic to our people. Tax concession will indeed provide a little financial support to households in the middle-lower income bracket, but it creates little help to taxpayers of middle to high income levels. We are those taxpayers. We willingly agree to pay our taxes because we are the fortunate ones who have regular income and jobs. But think of those people who are losing their jobs. This is the time for the Government to think really hard. To taxpayers of middle to high income levels, the Government should adopt BPA's proposal and increase the tax concession cap to $35,000, so that 400 000 high-income earners will benefit. The proposal will only involve $30 billion in tax revenue. It will help them and the economy, generating economic benefits indeed.

Tax concessions will create wealth redistribution, helping those in need to spend the tax they save on different industries of our community. However, with this only meagre and stingy tax concession, the SAR Government should really think about how they could share the wealth and the surplus that every Hong Kong citizen can rely on. If our high-income taxpayers are being ignored, just as they are by the Government now, or even overlooked in some sorts of good gestures, they would definitely share disenchantment, wondering why they should keep paying taxes but the Government is not helping others, not to speak of helping them. They believe that their talents and contributions to society are not being acknowledged or rewarded.

Singapore is knocking on every door of those high earners to ask them to go there and rightly so, their society is even better than ours. They look after their citizens. We stay here because Hong Kong is our home. But this does not mean that we should not ask our Government to open their mind, their eyes, 1240 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 their ears and more importantly, share their surplus with people who need help. Depressing and discouraging messages that our talents are not treasured or valued may spread, creating a negative image for Hong Kong. With such image, how can we attract overseas talents? No wonder we are always behind the target that we aim for. And how can Hong Kong progress? How can Hong Kong grow without talents? I mean not only local but also global talents. Taking this domino effect into consideration, I truly believe the SAR Government should increase the cap for tax concessions instead of lowering it to $20,000.

No matter how, the proposed tax concession is well-intended, as little as it may be. To address this difficult situation, the Chief Executive has proposed numerous measures in her Policy Address. Her Administration has also launched a series of measures to assist local small and medium enterprises ("SMEs") over the last two months. However, those measures are too stingy, too belated and too little. However, the SAR Government can step up further assistance to our citizens and particularly SMEs by providing more tax concessions. If Mr LI Ka-shing can do it, why can't "Mrs SAR"? The Government should also provide further basic allowances such as child allowance and education allowance to people in need. The SAR Government should also help and allow SMEs to hold over the payment of provisional profit tax or pay profit tax in phases if they ever make such profits.

President, my time is running out, so I am sorry that I am doing a filibustering speech. All these measures are merely patch-ups. More important are suppressing violence and restoring social order, maintaining the harmony that we used to have but have now lost. Months of violent protests have kept our peace-loving citizens at home and away from spending. The economy is crying. Our industries are evaporating. Our economy has been hard hit by the significant drop in local consumption. Meanwhile, our tourism, the major driving force of our economy, is also under severe threat. Over 40 countries have issued travel alerts for Hong Kong, warning and pulling foreign visitors away from Hong Kong. Now is the right time for action. Time is now ready for showing good leadership. I urge the SAR Government to show their leadership to Hong Kong people by giving every citizen $30,000. (The buzzer sounded)

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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr SHEK, please stop speaking. Does any other Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated a wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you wish to speak again?

SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY (in Cantonese): I have nothing to add.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019 be read the Third time and do pass. Will those in favour please raise their hands?

(Members raised their hands)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.

(No hands raised)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.

CLERK (in Cantonese): Inland Revenue (Amendment) (Tax Concessions) Bill 2019.

Second Reading of Government Bills

Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Government Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Government Bills. This Council resumes the Second Reading debate on the Judicial Officers (Extension of Retirement Age) (Amendment) Bill 2019.

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Stand-over items: Judicial Officers (Extension of Retirement Age) (Amendment) Bill 2019 and Electoral Legislation (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill 2019 (standing over from the meeting of 10 July 2019)

JUDICIAL OFFICERS (EXTENSION OF RETIREMENT AGE) (AMENDMENT) BILL 2019

Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 20 March 2019

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Chairman of the Bills Committee on the Bill, will first address the Council on the Committee's Report.

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, in my capacity as Chairman of the Bills Committee on Judicial Officers (Extension of Retirement Age) (Amendment) Bill ("the Bills Committee"), I report the deliberations of the Bills Committee.

The Judicial Officers (Extension of Retirement Age) (Amendment) Bill ("the Bill") seeks to amend the High Court Ordinance (Cap. 4), the District Court Ordinance (Cap. 336), the Pension Benefits (Judicial Officers) Ordinance (Cap. 401) and the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance (Cap. 484) to provide for extension of retirement age, extension of terms of office and related arrangements for certain Judges and Judicial Officers ("JJOs").

The Bills Committee has held a total of three meetings and invited written views from the public. During the meetings, members generally supported the legislative proposals of the Bill and discussed issues of statutory retirement age, early retirement age, arrangements of discretionary early retirement and discretionary extension of JJOs, transitional arrangements for the smooth implementation of the Bill, etc. I now briefly report on the major concerns of the Bills Committee as follows.

The Bills Committee considers that extending the retirement age and terms of office of JJOs can only partly address the judicial manpower shortage. Members have urged the Administration and the Judiciary Administration to take other measures, e.g. enhancing the methods for recruiting JJOs to alleviate the problem of manpower shortage.

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Some members consider that extending the statutory retirement age of JJOs below the level of Court of First Instance of the High Court ("CFI") to 70 as well may help attract more talents in the private legal practices to join the Judiciary and retain experienced JJOs. However, the Judiciary considers that setting the retirement age for JJOs below CFI level at 65 would avoid creating promotion blockage for junior JJOs and attract new blood.

Some members have suggested exploring the feasibility of relaxing or lifting the prohibition against Judges' return to private practice as barristers or solicitors, because such prohibition might discourage some legal practitioners from joining the Bench. The Judiciary Administration has advised in response that the above prohibition seeks to uphold judicial independence and strengthen public confidence in the Judiciary, thus, it does not agree that there should be any relaxation of the said prohibition.

Besides, under the amended discretionary extension arrangements, the maximum retirement age for Judges of the Court of Final Appeal, the Court of Appeal and CFI may be up to 76, 75 and 75 respectively, and that of JJOs below the CFI level may be up to 70. Some members are concerned about JJOs on extended term of office becoming incapable of carrying out their duties for health reasons. Other members have made the point that the proposal of extending the retirement age for Judges is worth supporting because it can increase manpower. However, they think that during the extended term of office, Judges should focus on judicial duties and should not be responsible for management and administrative work. Some members have suggested putting in place a mechanism so that during the extended term of office of JJOs, the Judiciary Administration and the JJOs concerned may mutually review on a regular basis whether the extended term of office should continue. Some members have also suggested the authorities to consider allowing such JJOs more flexibility in their workload and working hours.

The Judiciary Administration has advised in response that, before a discretionary extension of term of office is granted, the JJOs concerned will be required to pass a medical examination to ascertain that they are medically fit for continued employment. Besides, JJOs mainly perform judicial duties and only a small number of them are performing administrative duties. Furthermore, apart from continuing their services through discretionary extension arrangements, retired JJOs may also consider serving as deputy JJOs who only work on a temporary basis.

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The Administration and the Judiciary Administration have responded to the legal and drafting issues raised by the Legal Adviser to the Bills Committee.

The Bills Committee supports the resumption of the Second Reading debate on the Bill and will not propose any amendments to the Bill. Details of the deliberation of the Bills Committee are set out in the report submitted to the Legislative Council.

President, my personal views on the Bill are as follows. I myself support extending the retirement age of Judges. The reason is that in certain fields, particularly in law or social sciences, the older the judges, the more experience they will have in life or in adjudicating cases and thus, the richer the contents of their judgments. Hence, there is basically not much objection to amending the retirement age of Judges. In fact, some judges sitting in the international courts have even reached the age of 87.

The legal sector attaches great importance to quality and one of the reasons the Judiciary has proposed to extend the retirement age of Judges is manpower shortage, which is the issue that I would like to discuss. We certainly think that extending the retirement age of Judges can only slightly alleviate the current systemic problem faced by the Judiciary. Besides, we think that the retirement age of Judges cannot be automatically extended. We hope that when the head of Judiciary considers whether to extend the retirement age of certain Judges, their integrity, credibility and performances all along will be taken in account. Certainly, I believe the Judges themselves will consider the factors of capability and health mentioned by me earlier.

At present, credibility and independence are considered very important in Hong Kong. Thus, I have some suggestions to make. First, I suggest the authorities tell the public that extension of the retirement age of Judges will not be arbitrarily and automatically granted, instead, it has to go through a certain process. Second, I suggest that they review the existing system as a whole and examine the reasons for shortage in judicial manpower, resulting in the public perception that the waiting time for court hearings is too long and does not meet the expectations of society.

Recently, the credibility and independence of Judges became a public concern because some unwelcome incidents happened around the end of May and in June this year. Three Judges anonymously and openly expressed their LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1245 concerns about amending the Fugitive Offenders Ordinance in a newspaper. From the message, it is clear that they are against the amendment exercise. Another Judge also signed a joint petition in his real name. Upon inquiry, it was found that the name corresponded to an incumbent Judge and eventually it was confirmed that the signee was the incumbent Judge. After these incidents, it is indeed difficult to stop people querying whether these Judges will remain independent when adjudicating cases which involve people with political views different from theirs, particularly those who have supported the amendment exercise in a high-profile manner.

While I consider that the Judge who signed the petition in his real name has acted inappropriately, I think he is a responsible person. Since he acted in his real name, he could be asked to withdraw from a case when the need arises and lawyers can make such requests. At present, under certain conditions, such as the Judge being a relative of a person involved in the case or has conflict of interests, the Judge may have to withdraw from the case if a party to the case or a legal representative makes such a request. However, what can we do if a Judge expressed his views anonymously? I believe it is already worrying to have one Judge who did so, not to mention three. Are these Judges junior or senior Judges? How should investigations be conducted if they acted anonymously? In the Bills Committee, we have raised the question of whether these anonymous Judges are included in the list of Judges whose retirement age is to be extended.

President, I understand that it is a very difficult process to investigate incidents involving anonymous persons. Even the Legislative Council or the university in which I am teaching has to investigate from time to time incidents of disclosure of confidential information by anonymous persons. Or, under the present circumstances, investigations have to be conducted to ensure that the Judges concerned will remain politically independent and maintain their credibility when dealing with people with different political views. In fact, we can try our best to investigate. In subcommittees or select committees formed under the Legislative Council (Powers and Privileges) Ordinance, members will be asked to sign a statutory undertaking to affirm that they will not anonymously disclose confidential information. Many will refuse to sign because they dare not do so. In particular, Judges or members of the legal profession are more aware that this involves not only moral responsibility, but also legal consequences. They will not sign the undertaking lightly because they may be accused of lying. We think that at least, this procedure is required, otherwise, the Judiciary cannot be accountable to the public.

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In fact, what cases are the three Judges adjudicating at present? Those who have studied Law clearly know that the Lady of Justice is blindfolded because she will not be affected by any political views held by the parties. We understand that Judges are human beings and they are entitled to their own political views, but they should not express them publicly, much less anonymously. Such actions will give the public the impression that Judges who oppose the amendment exercise need not bear any legal or other responsibilities. I think that is very inappropriate.

These incidents have affected other matters too. Initially, the public did not oppose the proposal regarding the retirement age of Judges. The Bills Committee had consulted some public organizations, including the Legislative Council Secretariat, on the re-employment arrangement of their retired staff (particularly senior staff members). In the case of universities, the highest ranking dean of a faculty may be re-employed as a lecturer. He may not be required to take up administrative work, so that he can focus on his professional duties and perform work which is appropriate for his age.

President, I highly respect and commend Geoffrey MA, Chief Justice of the Court of Final Appeal, who clearly indicated a few days ago that he would retire in 2021 when he reached retirement age. I could read his mind. Since he has strongly advocated the proposal of extending the retirement age of Judges, he does not want to arouse the query that he put forward the proposal during his tenure for his own personal benefits. Hence, he made it clear that he would not extend his retirement age. Certainly, I greatly respect his decision and consider that he has played a very important judicial role during his term of office in the past 10-odd years. We must also thank him for proactively promoting the proposal of extending the retirement age of Judicial Officers which I support.

Nevertheless, I must point out that the mechanism and methods of recruiting new Judges cannot meet the needs of society. First, according to the latest statistics available this morning, there are about 6 000 cases of judicial review instituted by torture claimants pending to be heard. I initially thought that there were 1 000 claimants, but I am now informed that the number is as high as 6 000. In addition, there are almost 1 000 cases relating to Occupy Central and 3 000-odd cases concerning the recent disturbances. All such cases urgently require the opinions of the court. Justice delayed in society is justice denied. In particular, the whole society expects the court to expeditiously give its opinions regarding important public incidents such as Occupy Central, the riot in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1247

Mong Kok, disturbances, etc. What is the bottom line of the laws of Hong Kong? If young people are aware of this bottom line, they may be discouraged from committing the same crimes again and they will not count on luck any more. However, given that the case related to the trio of Occupy Central is still pending appeal, will hearing of cases related to the disturbances be conducted after a long wait of 5 to 10 years?

Let me point out one fact. The United Kingdom also operates under the common law system, and Hong Kong has extensively drawn reference from the experience of the United Kingdom. In 2011, the United Kingdom adopted the approach of focusing its efforts in dealing with a large number of disturbance cases; and how was that done? Since the cases involved public interests, some courts (not one, but a number of them) were designated to hearing cases of disturbance-related offences 24 hours a day, seven days a week. One week after the disturbance, the United Kingdom started the first hearing of cases which involved some 1 000 defendants. The trial of cases were completed with remarkable efficiency. Why did I especially mention this issue? It is because some defendants …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Priscilla LEUNG, in what way are your remarks just now related to the Bill?

DR PRISCILLA LEUNG (in Cantonese): This is a very important point, President. At present, we are recruiting Judges merely by extending the retirement age of existing Judges, which does not help in solving the problem of long waiting time for hearings. I have to raise this point as we had raised this point in the Bills Committee and now I have to explain to the public. Given that significant public interests were involved, David CAMERON pointed out explicitly that he would not allow cases involving a large number of arrestees be tried after a long wait. He also said that courts could hear cases 24 hours a day if necessary. The reason was that if young defendants had to wait three to five years before their cases were heard, and were eventually convicted and sentenced to imprisonment for five years, the period would span a total of 10 years. If the hearing of their cases could be completed in two years, by the time they were sentenced, they could be released as their imprisonment had already been served.

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All members of the community, regardless of their political views and their identity, including young defendants and law-abiding citizens, are eager to hear the court's judgment. Moreover, upon the completion of trials, special treatment can be given in suitable cases. For example, for very young defendants who are, say 8, 10 or 11 years old who committed crimes out of ignorance, if they truly repent and are accompanied by their parents, special treatment can be given. There was a case in the United Kingdom which is very similar to the cases in Hong Kong. An 11-year-old girl who just finished primary school got into big trouble and was arrested. In fact, she had never thought of being arrested and had to stand trial. The United Kingdom has adopted a very clear approach that such cases have to be tried and ruled as soon as possible.

I believe what we lack most in Hong Kong is the supply of Judicial Officers. We should learn comprehensively from good practices. I have to declare that this is the 30th year which I have taught at the City University of Hong Kong. The School of Law of the University of Hong Kong was established in 1969, the School of Law of The Chinese University of Hong Kong was established in 2005 and the School of Law of our university has been established for 22 years. Each year, 800 to 900 students graduated and they will become qualified lawyers afterwards. At present, there are many highly qualified criminal lawyers; the Government should formally and sincerely recruit them as Judicial Officers. However, all I can say is that the Government has failed to recruit new blood proactively and in fact, it has never recruited any. This arouses doubt as to whether the Government really hopes to enlist the assistance of these people. Or, can the Government handle matters more flexibly and increase the manpower focusing on hearing cases related to torture claims, disturbances and Occupy Central in these two years? I am afraid that the hearing of these cases may not be completed in five or even 10 years and it will be a distress for the society as a whole.

Therefore, President, I hope that the courts can really make more effort in addressing the shortage of Judicial Officers (The buzzer sounded) … and focus on recruiting new blood …

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEUNG, please stop speaking.

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MS STARRY LEE: President, over the decades, the problem of shortage of judges has been well known to the public at large in Hong Kong before or at least since 1997.

"Hong Kong's shortage of judges means justice is often delayed", as was pointed out by a former top official of the Department of Justice, Mr Grenville CROSS. It was said that retired Judges were being recalled to fill vacancies at the Judiciary. Yet, even so, this could only be a temporary solution. It was also pointed out that we may once again have to turn to overseas recruitment.

Since 1997, the Judiciary has been faithfully upholding the rule of law, ensuring that not only justice is to be done, it must also be seen to be done, with the independent judges on the Bench, for which most Hong Kong people should be grateful.

Of course, the judges required must always be those of the right quality. It was once reiterated by Chief Justice Geoffrey MA that "it is better to leave positions vacant than to have appointments of persons not of the required standard".

In about March 2015, it was announced that, out of 200 judicial posts, only 169 were filled substantively, and there have been persistent recruitment difficulties at the High Court level.

It was reported by South China Morning Post at about the end of 2015 that, in the three consecutive recruitment exercises for the Court of First Instance held in 2012, 2013 and 2014, not all vacancies were filled. The number of candidates suitable for appointment was much much lower than the available vacancies.

The Judiciary Administrator recently reported that there were 10 judicial vacancies in the Court of First Instance, on top of which a significant number of the existing Judges will reach the statutory retirement age of 65 within the next five years. Many Court of First Instance Judges have traditionally come from the District Court or the legal profession, whereas newly appointed district Judges may currently lack the experience necessary for promotion. A 2010 Benchmark Study showed that the pay of Court of First Instance Judges was lower than that of legal professionals of comparable experience in the private sector. The fact that remuneration is not very attractive, coupled with the low retirement age and the barring from returning to private practice, would undoubtedly keep any potential candidates from coming forward to join the Bench.

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It was described by South China Morning Post that although the pay and service conditions of the senior judiciary, which are not ungenerous by international standards, are closely monitored by the Standing Committee on Judicial Salaries and Conditions of Service ("Judicial Committee"), an independent body, and various reviews are currently underway on judicial needs, including one on benefits and allowances, anomalies remain. It is surprising, for example, that the Chief Justice is paid less than the three Secretaries of Departments, notwithstanding his central role in the legal system. To combat its shortfall, the Judiciary is calling retired Judges back into temporary service, temporarily promoting District Court Judges, and relying on senior lawyers to sit as deputy judges or recorders for several weeks a year. While this may provide a short-term palliative, it is no substitute for substantive appointments.

The Judicial Committee has recently advised that the Judiciary's increasingly heavy workload has been particularly borne by those serving in the High Court, and the shortage of Court of First Instance Judges presumably places existing judges under even greater pressure. The Judiciary, moreover, in its Hong Kong Judiciary Annual Report 2014, indicated that its performance targets were not always being met. It confirmed once and again that the waiting time for a criminal case, from the filing of the indictment to trial in the Court of First Instance, was 227 days, whereas the target was 120 days.

While there may be reluctance on the part of the Judiciary due to the trend of localization to recruit overseas judges, a practice which was common before 1997, this option may have to be reconsidered if the present condition of shortage of judges remains and/or deteriorates.

Although Chinese is being increasingly used in court cases, lower courts in particular, the Basic Law provides that English is also an official language of the Judiciary, yet the bulk of magistrates' court cases are now tried in Chinese, many Court of First Instance trials are still conducted in English, and this is unlikely to change, at least not within a foreseeable future.

Judicial shortages will also pose threat to our court system, as one of the United Kingdom top judges earlier warned, the United Kingdom's experience, as it is being one of the leading common law legal system, is certainly well worth serious consideration by Hong Kong which is running the same system.

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The effective operation of the Courts in England and Wales was under threat due to problems of judicial recruitment, increasingly heavy workloads and deteriorating working conditions, according to the Lord Chief Justice. In his first appearance before the House of Lords Select Committee on the Constitution in his new post, "The current difficulties with judicial recruitment pose a threat to the discharge of the business of the Courts effectively", as was pointed out by the most senior Judge in England and Wales, to his peers. "This affects the ordinary work of the civil, family and criminal courts." Additionally, problems of recruitment to the higher courts threaten to undermine the worldwide reputation of the Judiciary of England and Wales and reduce the attraction of London as the pre-eminent centre for international dispute resolution. The voluntary use of the United Kingdom Courts by those outside the jurisdiction is worth billions a year.

In Israel the shortage of judges that has worsened over the years has led to a serious deterioration in the operation of Israel's judicial system. The three main areas were affected by the shortage. The first area is the judicial system itself where the shortage is the primary determinant of the delay and what the public often perceives as procrastination plaguing Israeli courts.

The second area affected is due process. The shortage has led, in tandem with other factors, to inefficiency in the judicial system, compelling it, most prominently in the last decade or so, to be "innovative", that is, introduce procedures devoid of any legal footing.

The third area affected are judges themselves. It was advocated in Malaysia that to maintain and sustain judicial reforms, it is necessary that the age of retirement for superior court Judges be extended from 66 to 68 or 70. If there is reluctance to extend the retirement age of all superior court Judges, a beginning can be made with the Federal Court. It is not uncommon for apex courts to have a higher retirement age.

In the Supreme Court of the United States and in constitutional courts in Austria and Greece, judges are appointed for life. In Canada, the retirement age is 75. In Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway and Australia, the age is 70 years. In Germany, it is 68.

Increasing the retirement age in Hong Kong courts will bring many advantages. It will bring the present Judiciary in line with the norm worldwide. It will permit continuation of a strong talent pool of experienced judges. Judicial reforms, recently introduced, will have time to get entrenched.

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It will make post-retirement assignments, handed down by the executive, become unattractive. This will improve independence of the Judiciary and strengthen the rule of law, both of which are crucial to sustaining democracy.

The growth of cases in Hong Kong, civil or criminal, the commercial disputes, local or international, is alarming. While the recruitments, training and engagements will inevitably take time, efforts and resources, the extension of the retirement age of Judges, as proposed by the Bill, does appear to be very constructive and beneficial to Hong Kong.

By this legislation, the Hong Kong Judiciary will raise the retirement age for Judges by five years to 70 and the move will include pay rises for Judges to counter balance any shortcomings for these Judges as the sector of these Judges faces competition from the better paid private sector and retirement.

Now also by this legislation, the Judiciary pushes back the retirement age for Judges from 65 to 70 in a bid to tackle the persistent manpower shortage in local courts and an increasing brain drain exacerbated by a greying bench, as the press earlier described.

The effort may tap the talent pool of the city's prosecutors' office to attract those eyeing a career change as they may be more likely to switch over than private lawyers, who could be put off by a huge pay cut.

Retired Judge WOO Kwok-hing did first officially throw hat in the ring for Hong Kong's 2017 Chief Executive Election. He tendered himself as a retired Judge for possible further service as a chief executive in Hong Kong two weeks after the Executive Council had approved a proposal to offer Judges of all ranks two pay rises plus extra allowances. It was an attempt to close the expanding pay gap between Judges and legal practitioners, which is one of the concerns for the latter in contemplating a job in the Judiciary.

The announcement in 2016 revealed a bleak reality as a Court of First Instance Judge in 2015 earned 60% less than a private-practice senior counsel with the same experience. The pay gap was only 43% about a decade ago.

The Judiciary has since about 2012 increased the number of recruitment exercises for Court of First Instance Judges, but to no avail. These Judges, who earned about HK$255,000 a month, remained difficult to recruit, whereas those in LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 1253 private practice can charge clients tens of millions of dollars per annum. I hope fees can be lower.

Until March 2016, only 162 out of 200 court posts were filled on a permanent basis, which is seven down from a year earlier due to retirement―another deterrent for lawyers, yet people can still be very smart, energetic, healthy and capable in their late seventies.

Although retired Judges are entitled to pensions, those above the District Court level are barred from returning to private practice after stepping down from the Bench at 65, whereas their counterparts in the private sector can work for as long as they want.

The former Law Society President Thomas SO said he supported raising the retirement age and increasing judicial salaries, hence a solicitor who has also been a deputy Judge said he would consider joining the Bench later in his career.

Former Bar Association President Winnie TAM also gave her support to the idea of postponing retirement for Judges, and she wrote a column in a Chinese-language newspaper Ming Pao stating that, for many senior counsels who decided to make the switch, it would be a "point of no return".

A veteran barrister, who preferred to remain anonymous, suggested that the extended retirement age be made discretionary rather than mandatory.

The former Director of Public Prosecutions Grenville CROSS also noted that while a pay cut may deter private counsel from joining the Bench, the terms and conditions were actually very attractive to Department of Justice prosecutors, who are already committed to the Government. He opined that "these tend to get better by the year, and a move to the Judiciary is viewed as a logical career move." as he almost joined the High Court in the 1990s. But he said he was too much in love with his advocacy work as a prosecutor to make the switch. He said it would help if the Judiciary could take advantage of the prosecutors' talent pool, especially because the retirement age for prosecutors is 60 while that for Judges is 65. Other senior lawyers the press spoke to raised other concerns. For instance, Judges, especially those above Court of First Instance level, are so overloaded with work these days that they hardly have time to write judgments―a job aspect widely considered by many as a primary source of job satisfaction and a way to contribute to the development of the common law.

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All in all, from all branches of the legal profession, it has come to a clear consensus and opinion that extending the retirement age of Judges is not only needed for addressing the issue of shortage of judicial manpower … (The buzzer sounded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms LEE, please stop speaking.

SUSPENSION OF MEETING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now suspend the meeting until 9:00 am tomorrow.

Suspended accordingly at 7:17 pm.

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Annex I

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 6 November 2019 A1

Appendix I

WRITTEN ANSWER

Written answer by the Secretary for Home Affairs to Mr YIU Si-wing's supplementary question to Question 6

According to information provided by the Leisure and Cultural Services Department, it received two complaints/enquiries (involving four individuals) on 27 October 2019 concerning the cancellation of programme arising from demonstration. The Department has liaised with the programme organizer to arrange for refund or change of tickets.