I

I Data Sheet

I Name of Interviewee: Julie Shingobe I Current Age: 62 Place of Birth: East Lake Refuge I Date of Birth: 1930

I Date of Interview: August 5, 1992 Project I Person Conducting Oral Interview: Dr. Anthony Godfrey

Location of Interview: Mandy Lake, Rice Lake National Wildlife Refuge, I Minnesota HistorySociety I Vocal Clarity: Good Biographical Data: I Born near the East Lake WildlifeSocial Refuge area, Julie Shingobe currently lives in East Lake and works as a chemical dependency counselor for the Mille Lacs band. Formerly a District II/EastHistorical Lake Representative (1982-1986), I Julie Shingobe belongs to the Grand Medicine Society/Midewiwin and regularly attend ceremonialOjibwe dances. She is a college-graduate and her son I Mushkooub is presently the Commissioner of Eduction for the band.

I Major ThemesLacs Addressed: Discusses severalMinnesota traditional seasonal activities at East Lake from the 1930s [ onward, such as ricing, fishing and maple sugaring; traditional practices Milleinvolving drum societies, the Ojibwe language and medicinal plants; and inter-band government relations and relations with the Minnesota Chippewa I Tribe (MCT). I Related Photographs Donated: I None given. I I I

I Interview with Julie Shingobe Date of Interview: August 5, 1992 I Place of Interview: Mandy Lake, Rice Lake National Wildlife Refuge, Minnesota I Interviewer: Dr. Anthony Godfrey

I Begin Tape One, Side One

Godfrey: Today is August the 5th, and I'm sitting here in front of I Mandy Lake with Julie Shingobe of the East Lake band of Chippewas. And first, like, I need some personalProject data from I you. Your place of birth? I Shingobe: The East Lake Refuge. Godfrey: The East Lake Refuge. And whenHistory we droveSociety by the other I day, just a few minutes ago, you described how there was a village there. Could you perhaps describe that again?

! Shingobe: It was a really thrivingSocial village, as I remember it. My first remembrance I was probably four or five years old. I Historical Godfrey: When were you born? Ojibwe I Shingobe: I'm not quite sure. There's two dates. There's got 1929, and they got also 1930. I Lacs Godfrey: Oh, okay.Minnesota I Shingobe:Mille I have no birth certificate. I just have what the government agents that came around and took back to the Minnesota I Chippewa Tribe. I had to have affidavits confirming, from the elders. So I go by 1930.

I Godfrey: 1930. So there was a village there before the refuge was there? I

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Shingobe: Oh, yesl Yes. That's way before my time, way before my I time. They had-as I remember it there was a schoolhouse there. They practiced our religion of the Midewiwin and in I our ceremonial dances. The people had horses and cows and chickens and gardens. There was many families there. I Godfrey: Hmm. About how many houses or families do you think were there? I Shingobe: What I recall as a child? I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I know that was a long time ago. Project I Shingobe: Yes, it was. Maybe about twenty families.

Godfrey: Twenty families? Okay, that's- I History Shingobe: It could be more. You know, as a childSociety you don't-because I was picked up by the government agents, my sister and I. I When we came back, they were gone. No, we came back, and it was still there. SocialThen we were picked up again. We I came back, and they were already gone, scattered. The government had taken Historicalover. I Godfrey: Now whereOjibwe did you go? I Shingobe: They sent-they took us to St. Benedict's in White Earth­ Mission,Lacs Catholic mission school. I Godfrey: This wasMinnesota when you were five or six? I Shingobe:Mille Five or six years old.

Godfrey: And how long were you there? I

Shingobe: I was there a year, in that school, and then I was sent back I again or taken back again. I'd say totally I spent about three years there. I

2 I I I I Godfrey: Three years.

I Shingobe: But I was more fortunate than some, that my foster parents would come and get me, and, or other relatives-and still I managed to retain the languages, the traditions. There were some, you know, some that never had that chance. They lost the language. When we first went there, we could not I speak English. And we were really grossly punished for it, I too. Godfrey: In what way were you punished? Project I Shingobe: We were--lickings, beatings. I Godfrey: Really? History Shingobe: Like a strap or ruler or punished in someSociety other way­ I deprived of stuff. Constantly drilled into us, you know-"You speak English." Constantly drilled into us that we were I pagans, because we Socialwere not Christians, we were not Catholics. Our families, extended families-some of us would not give in to being baptized. I feel that we were I more fortunate than a lotHistorical of our people. I Godfrey: Yes. ThisOjibwe morning I was talking to Mabel [Albino], and she said that after that time, she couldn't speak the language. So you were probably- I Lacs Shingobe: She speaks the language. I Minnesota Godfrey:Mille She does?

I Shingobe: We speak it together, but she's not as- I Godfrey: Not as well as- Shingobe: -fluent as I do. But she understands it, fluently. No, I I wouldn't say that. She speaks mostly English, but when

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she's with me, she can understand what I'm talking to, and I she will converse, but not as fluent as I do. I Godfrey: I see. Okay. And what happened to the village? I mean, you were gone. Do you know what happened? I Shingobe: At the time I didn't know what happened. You know, I was too young and stuff to understand that. It was just wherever I my relatives were, that was home. In later years that I understand that the eee, whatever, came in there and just forcibly removed them. And when they didn't, they just I torched their houses, and the United StatesProject government took it. They were displaced, and there was promises which I were never kept.

Godfrey: What were those promises? I HistorySociety Shingobe: That we would have given homes, relocated. Land would be I bought. This is what I understood, or what I later learned what happened, through oral stuff. Social I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. Historical I Shingobe: At one time, that the government tried to take over on the lake, and weOjibwe went into federal court-I do remember that. A federal judge, Minneapolis-and we won to keep ricing on I the lake.

Godfrey: RicingLacs here? I Minnesota Shingobe:Mille Mm-hmm. And control. I Godfrey: Who was the leader of the village at this time? Do you- I Shingobe: When I was young? I Godfrey: Yeah. I

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I Shingobe: I wouldn't know that. I don't think there was any specific leader. You know, in the old ways, whatever skill you had, that, you know, that was used. If there was a leader there, I or not a leader, but was good at interpreting, that's the one that would be used. And good at-I don't think there ever I was any leaders, 'cause we have our ceremonial dances which still exist today. In the Mille Lacs area and this area we have four ceremonial drums. In our language we call I those two keepers the bosses, but that's just specifically there. It's not like society, you know, today that there was a I leader. You'd have a spokesperson that would speak in specific things, ceremonial or other dealing with maybe was good at dealing with white men. [Bee flies Projectinto the truck and I mometarily interrupts conversation.] Oh, I don't know if we I should stay here. [Laughter.] Godfrey: Maybe if we roll the windows up a little bit. HistorySociety I Shingobe: -with the white men. That was my first-I'd probably be jumping all over. Going back to when I was kid, when they I first took me to, first knowingSocial about a white man. Just vaguely, you know. They would tell us, you know, about, about a [Chippewa word], you know, or [Chippewa word]. I White skin. Or long knifeHistorical means [Chippewa word]. You know, they used to carry the swords, the sabers, or I whatever. OjibweThat's the term, where it comes in. [Chippewa word].

I Godfrey: Interesting.Lacs Minnesota I Shingobe: [Chippewa word] means white skin. And the school­ Millefrightening-and when we first seen the nuns, you know, their habits. They wore habits in those days, and the priest. I And to this day, what I learned there-the concept of a devil. Because we just have-you know, when they talk about evil, I it was, you know, a bad god. Contrary to what's out there, they say the Indian has many gods. What there really is, is that God is in everything. So the term [Chippewa word] a I tree is [Chippewa word]-you know, only one.

I 5 I I I Godfrey: Only one. I Shingobe: But in everything, you and I, and all living things. I don't know if I'm following your trail or not or where you are going. I

Godfrey: No, I have no trail. I Shingobe: Oh, okay. I Godfrey: But I was kind of curious. When we were talkingProject about spokespeople and civil leaders, I was just wondering, who I in the village would have, like, talked with the government at-when they were coming with the eee to take them out? Any specific person? Like, if there was some I correspondence, it might have beenHistory toSociety this person. You know, we are evicting your village. I

Shingobe: I have no idea. There is, and we-in people like even with me. I'm an elder now,Social but there is elder, elder, who has this I history, who had this history, he's deceased now. It's there, but we-this one is exactHistorical history here, concerning this here, I would have been older than me. I'm giving you just what I can rememberOjibwe here and what little that I've heard. The ones that first came here were the ones that first-we always I considered this, these were the ones here, was the Abits. FromLacs there on, you know, the all people were considered I relatives, you know, extended families and stuff, not on a relationship,Minnesota you know, and non-Indians. I hate to be saying Millewhite, but that's the way we term it, you know. I Godfrey: I understand. I Shingobe: Okay. You know, I would say they would be, they would have been the original there and then all the, you know, ??? I coming on. They had the land. They also say there was some more land over here that was reservation. We have- I

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I we were by ourselves until 1934, when we were pulled into the Mille Lacs Reservation without having a voice.

I Godfrey: Having a voice. They just included you in it.

I Shingobe: Yes. I Godfrey: Yes. I Shingobe: Which we did not- Godfrey: The government often does that. Project I Shingobe: I don't believe it was the government. I think it was-I don't know. I'm not a political person. I don't like to get involved I in politics, although I was in tribal government at one time. To this day there is animosity towardsHistory the main reservation because this also was a reservation atSociety one time. We don't I have the, the moneys to hire to help us. And we still go on the old ways that truth is the key, you know. That's not- I Social Godfrey: So the people at East Lake see themselves as a separate I group from Mille Lacs? Historical Shingobe: Right. And still do. I Ojibwe Godfrey: And still do?

I Shingobe: AndLacs still do, but as long as we are included in programs and stuff, weMinnesota do take their services. I am employed through the I Mille Lacs Reservation. I don't know how we were enrolled Millein there, in the Mille Lacs Reservation. If it was prior to 1934, or it probably was after 1934 that we were enrolled in I there. I Godfrey: But people here at Sandy Lake have been here for generations and generations before that?

I Shingobe: Right, right. Sandy Lake is a reservation, too. Still, there is

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a lot of controversy about that, too. Well, I don't know if you I call it controversy, but it has, to us around here, has more status than the Mille Lacs Reservations. I Godfrey: I see. I Shingobe: They are non-removable Sandy Lake. I Godfrey: Non-removable?

Shingobe: And this also, at one time, had a reservation. To this day I there is-you know, we do not like to be includedProject ;n the Mille Lacs Reservation, but we have. There we are. I

Godfrey: Yeah. Is there much intermarriage between Mille Lacs and East Lake, or is there greater intermarriage with Sandy I Lake? History Society I Shingobe: We are--well, there's intermarriage all over. We still hold to-a majority of us still hold to our traditions. We do not intermarry with our own.Social Like, say, if you were my second I cousin, we would still not do that. We go by clans. Historical I Godfrey: Right. Ojibwe Shingobe: If you have the clan, we would not do that. but it's been I happening now. That's where we say you lose the language,Lacs you lose the culture. As we see it, they're I following the white man's- Minnesota Godfrey:Mille Path. Yeah. I Shingobe: Which is sad. I Godfrey: Yeah. Now what clan are you? I Shingobe: I am from the Eagle. I

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I Godfrey: Eagle elan? I Shingobe: Because of white ancestry. I Godfrey: Okay. Shingobe: They-my biological mother and-I don't know if we should I put that on there. [Laughter.] Godfrey: Okay. So the village was removed by-and the eee camp I was put in. And where did the people go from there? Did they end up across the highway? I Project Shingobe: Some of them did. There was a really thriving village there. There was a lot of people there, and some of them-this I storekeeper used to be there. He let some of the Indian families who didn't, you know, haveHistory noSociety other place to go, I live there. Some of them went to Mille Lacs. Some of them went to Sandy Lake. Some of them went to Fond du Lac, and some of them went to Wisconsin. They were scattered. I Social Godfrey: I see. Historical I Shingobe: You know, they destroyed our village. Ojibwe I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. What were some of the family names? I mean, you mentioned Aubid. I Lacs Shingobe: Yeah. They were the leading ones-and the Skinaways. Minnesota I Godfrey:Mille And the Skinaways? Shingobe: The ???, the ??? the Benjamins were some of the main I ones that I can remember. But I guess there was more than that. Some of them I was too small to remember, but I hear I their names all the time. My foster mother's still living there, and-she's old. She's ninety-one years old. She was one of I them old~own the hill from me, where you went, is eighty-

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one year old. She was-her dad was the one, the Aubid that I had a house there. There was a school there, too, a school that they had. Big house that the Aubid's lived in, converted to a schoolhouse for the Indian children. I

Godfrey: Okay. I

Shingobe: It was nice there. Eventually we could have done this ourselves, and we still have a dream that someday we can I get it back. You know, we still consider ourselves separate, and there's been times we've tried to separate. But laws I and everything, Congress and all of that kind of stuff, which a lot of us don't understand. Project I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I Shingobe: We live very spiritually here, andHistory elders older than me and my age and my children, around theirSociety age, are still very spiritually connected to this refuge. That's why we remain I here. And it must-I don't know what years it was where yo~ see the checkerboardSocial lands here around the refuge, was I bought by the Indian people that stayed, themselves. It was taxable land. But they chose to remain near here. Historical I Godfrey: About howOjibwe many families are living here now? I Shingobe: It since has been turned over, most of it, to trust land. There was approximate-just in the East Lake area? Lacs I Godfrey: Mm-hmm.Minnesota I Shingobe:Mille I would say, let's see. Just off the top of my head, without counting them all, the ones that are staying here, probably about twenty-four families, maybe twenty-three families. I However, these-there's others that come and go. I Godfrey: They're living elsewhere, in the cities or-?

Shingobe: Yeah, and they come back, you know, because there's no I

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I jobs, no housing, no nothing here. But it's still home. They still come back. So us that remain are more fortunate, you I know, finding ways to remain here. We keep it, and they come, and they stay with us.

I Godfrey: I see. Well, maybe you can take me through community life on a seasonal basis-not particularly now, but maybe in the I past. I Shi ngobe: In the past? I Godfrey: Yeah. Maybe starting in the springtime. Project Shingobe: As I remember it? You've got to remember that I was also I living in Sandy Lake, too. Godfrey: Well, you can mention-you canHistory talk aboutSociety Sandy Lake as I well.

Shingobe: Okay. I remember-my first recollection in the fall of the I year, where we used Socialto at this lake here-going across the lake and camping. Historical I Godfrey: This lake, meaning? Ojibwe I Shingobe: And camp. Yeah, Rice Lake. I Godfrey: RiceLacs Lake. Shingobe: [ChippewaMinnesota word] it's called. And we would go in old I Millewooden boats across. And all you would take would be your kettle and blankets maybe, and probably sugar or something I like that. But they never had any building stuff. It was taken from the land. I can remember camps, you know, where you'd see across the lake and where we were-very I spiritual, very together. I Godfrey: Can you put a year on this, about what time we're talking

I 11 I I about-1930s, 1940s? I Shingobe: Probably maybe in 1935, when I could first remember that, probably when I was about five. It could have been about I 1935, '34. It could have been, because it just flashes in, flashes out. I Godfrey: Right. I Shingobe: Yeah, yeah. The fishing out there-you gathered from the land, mainly living off the land. And very spiritual-that's the key with everything. You know, we had it. In the-that's I what I remember about ricing. You know, theyProject did all their own, and the great big racks of rice that was brought in from I the lake. The lakes were-the lake was full. Children­ they would let us go out, you know, in the boats after they I would come in. Parching the rice,History kicking it out, having feasts, having dances-ceremonial dances-comingSociety back across the lake. I Godfrey: This would be in the fallSocial time you're talking about? I Shingobe: In the fall, at ricing time-probably around in August, late August, and then September.Historical They could rice out there; up I to two months they would be camped out there. There was camping, youOjibwe know. I Godfrey: And this was rice that they used during the wintertime? Lacs I Shingobe: Yeah. Some would be sold, you know, to buy staples. I rememberMinnesota the peddlers coming out here-I think that's what Milleyou'd call them-with their trucks of salt and stuff like that, I maybe salt pork and candy and maybe some clothing. I really don't know if they were paid in money at the time­ I this is my first recollection-or if they were just traded.

Godfrey: Mm-hmm. Bartered and- I Shingobe: Yeah. In later years, on other lakes that we would go to- I

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I this wasn't only Lake [Chippewa word?].-they would go to different lakes, like Minnewawa. I don't know if John mentioned that-we call her John-Mabel-that they used to I rice here, too.

I Godfrey: I think she did. I Shingobe: Yeah. And they also camped here. Godfrey: Okay. And once this was turned into a refuge, you I continued to?

Shingobe: We continued. I don't know what year it wasProject when they I stopped camping there. Most of the time we would be sent away to school. I think the last time that I can remember that I they camped there was-I mean, when I was involved when they camped there. I guess theyHistory did camp after that. But the one that I remember was probably in 1945,Society when there was I a big group out there on the south landing. They used to camp on the north landing, too. And one of the elders-way I elder than me, you know,Social in the eighties-had told me that there was camps all around and showed me where some of the camps were. They had Indian people coming from far I away as Leech Lake andHistorical all over, that would camp there­ sharing, youOjibwe know, no competitive stuff, you know, like they I do nowadays. I Godfrey: DidLacs people from Mille Lacs come up? Shingobe: Oh, yes!Minnesota There was no hating or anything like that, you I know, no dislike there. Even today there's not that. They Milleare our people, too. They're our relatives, from Mille Lacs mainly. Most of them migrated from Sandy Lake. Most of I them are my relatives. Our ancestors came from Sandy I Lake and migrated over there-my relatives, anyway. Godfrey: Is that how it's seen traditionally, that Sandy Lake was here I first, and Mille Lacs was second?

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Shingobe: Sandy Lake was-Mille Lacs also was a reservation at one I time. But a lot of them-history will tell you that. You read that a lot of them were-hence, the non-removable and I removable Mille Lacs enrollees. We-

Godfrey: Now you say there were non-you consider yourselves non­ I removable Sandy Lake people. So that means there were removable Sandy Lake people? People that went to White I Earth?

Shingobe: No. They stayed. I Project Godfrey: They stayed. Okay. I Shingobe: That's why the-it's never-we feel that's why that is never I monkeyed with because they're Historyafraid this would come out, that it has more status than the Mille LacsSociety Reservation. I Godfrey: I see.

Shingobe: And there is fighting goingSocial on over that with one party in that I area. I don't know. This shouldn't be on-this shouldn't be on there. Historical I

Godfrey: Now there Ojibweare other groups that are mentioned in the history, like Gull Lake and Rabbit Lake. Where do they fit in I all this? Lacs I Shingobe: I'm not an expert or anything on that, but I listened-that it was all Minnesotapart of this here. Rabbit Lake and Gull Lake and­ Milleespecially the part where they mention they're still existing I where the government didn't take it. The older ones say [Chippewa word], means reservation interpreted in white, I but [Chippewa word] was something that was saved. That's what that word means [Chippewa word.]-and what term is reservation, something, the only thing left of us. They're I concentration camps! [Laughter.] I

14 I I I I Godfrey: Okay. Shingobe: Not concern-I shouldn't say that, but you can delete some. I Godfrey: I know what you mean. Okay. Other things going on in the falltime would be? What kinds of other activities in the I villages? I Shingobe: The Mide. The religion is what they call Mide. That was done in the fall of the year and also done in the spring of the I year. I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. How about harvesting? Did they-Project Shingobe: Their gardens.

I Godfrey: Gardens? HistorySociety I Shingobe: Yeah, they all had-what I can remember, they all had gardens. And they shared, and they had these--whadaycall I 'em-root cellars? Social Godfrey: Mm-hmm. Historical I Shingobe: You know, into the ground. They had pigs, cows, horses, chickens. OjibweYeah, it all was there. And yeah, they--out in I whatever they harvest in the fall, like gathering them hazelnuts. I remember dOing that, you know, and just taking themLacs out. And then the wintertime, you know, when they're I dried out, and then you-the nut itself, you know, just leave it on thereMinnesota in gunnysacks. They'd do that. Then they had I Millethese other kind of nuts that are close to the lake. They would gather where you roasted them.

I Godfrey: Hmm. You're making me hungry here.

I Shingobe: Yeah. I forgot what you call those--beechnuts or something? I I 15 I I

Godfrey: Beechnuts, sure. I

Shingobe: I think that's what they call them. Or they picked wild I apples, you know, and then-all that stuff. I can remember all that, when they were doing that, as a child. This is-most of what I'm telling about is what I remember as a child. I

Godfrey: Right. Okay. Later I'm going to ask you for, like, today-the I major changes between the tribe, between your childhood and present as you see it. I Shingobe: As a child, and talking to people who're myProject age, we never thought we were poor. You know, white man says, "You're I poor." We never thought we were poor, until we start going into the school. And then the word came in. We were poor, I and that stuck in here, - you know.History Later on, you know, it'd kind of bother you. We're poor. But toSociety this day, I don't think we were poor. We were rich. Now we are poor! And I'm not I talking about if you have money in your hand.

Godfrey: Mm-hmm. Social I

Shingobe: I feel a great loss. AndHistorical I don't think-they say it's, it is being I lost and stuff. I still-maybe it is being lost to some extent. But it doesn'tOjibwe have to be lost. There is still people like me that still speak the language, that still know the stories, that I still knows a lot of the traditions. Lacs I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. Well, that's what this oral history is about, to bring outMinnesota this history and this cultural heritage of the past Milleand keep it preserved and pass it on for future generations. I Shingobe: We-the Mille Lacs Reservation as a whole, as what's I considered the Mille Lacs Reservation, even these outlying distance, districts, is the most traditional of all reservations. We've managed to hang on to eleven ceremonial drums, not I what you see out there in public. I

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I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I Shingobe: Spiritual, very spiritual. And for a while there, there wasn't very many places to go to the Mide where people held, that still held in there, you know, what's in here. It's coming out. I We're sharing. We have places now. I Godfrey: That's great. Shingobe: We don't talk about like you. You talk a lot outside their I religion. It's not religion. It's a way of life. Project I Godfrey: A way of life, yeah. You can't separate the two. I Shingobe: Right, right. You cannot separate the two. Godfrey: That's probably why I have no questionsHistorySociety about religion, I because I already know that it- Shingobe: Oh, you already know that? I Social Godfrey: -"I already know that everything we talk about is-has its I spiritual side to it. Historical I Shingobe: Right. Ojibwe Godfrey: You mentioned storytelling.

I Shingobe: YouLacs could tell the stories- Minnesota I Godfrey:Mille In the wintertime? I Shingobe: -in the winter, in the wintertime. I Godfrey: Yeah? Shingobe: Yeah. And lot of times, you know, I've-to me that way of I life was, is not to-this is the reason why I do it. It was just

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a way of life. You know, that's the way it was, until a time I came-and the time is here now-that you have to explain that because it's so maybe different from the majority culture. In the storytimes, you know, nowadays in lot of­ I even our people say they just know it is taboo to tell stories in the summertime and the springtime, when the snow is off I the ground.

Godfrey: Umm. I

Shingobe: To pOint now that I know it has to be told. Why? Why? And I the reason why? Because there's not too much activity in the wintertime. You can't go out and be outsideProject too much, you know, and so there it was. You know, you would tell I your stories. In the summertime, springtime, falltime-all kinds of things you could do. So if they told stories in the I summertime, it would take away from what you're- HistorySociety Godfrey: Supposed to be doing other things? I

Shingobe: Yeah. So that was-soSocial then, you know, when you say, you I don't tell stories. You would say, a snake will come or a frog will come crawling past you. So that sticks in your mind. That's the way youHistorical are, but later, as you go on, you I know why. OjibweYou can talk about it, so in turn you'd pass it on to your children, until your children become to that, where I they know why-that stuff.

Godfrey: Mm-hmm.Lacs I Minnesota Shingobe: But when it's out there, and a lot of people hear that, "Oh, I Millethese Indian people, you know. They're superstitious and all that kind of stuff," which is untrue! 'Cause the respect­ what I'm really talking about is everything living was I spiritual, spirituality combined in everything. I'm jumping ahead of myself, and I see the difference now, with our I children-the alcohol, drugs, the concerts, the annual powwows. This is not interesting anymore because they do I

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I not understand this stuff. And lost in limbo-you're losing. You're only living part of the total.

I Godfrey: Well, how do you address that problem? How do you? I Shingobe: I do that. I-people seem to sense who is, and they come to you, and you tell them. I learned that in the old way, which I still follow, I have to adjust. I had to since I was a child. It I was a little harder until I became older that I give when they come and ask me. I would teach them to, you know, give I your offering, ???, whatever you feel it's worth. Maybe tobacco is always our main thing. Project I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I Shingobe: And going back to that [Chippewa word] people are always throwing tobacco around. You Historyknow, what the heck is that? You know, they were offering stuff. ThatSociety meant, you know, I like the way I can compare it is- and don't get me wrong here. I respect all beliefs. We were taught that, too. You don't, any way anybodySocial believes. And if they're totally with I it, you know, that's fine. Not be hypocrite--and the way I could tell somebody what tobacco-in the Catholic religion, I they use water as a communicator,Historical you know. As human beings, we have to see something, you know, in order to whatever. OjibweA lot of times we can't have total blind faith, so I they touch the water, which you see there. And as you put it on you, it's no more. I Lacs Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I Minnesota Shingobe:Mille So the connection- I Godfrey: Has been made.

Shingobe: Yeah. The same way with the tobacco. You see the I tobacco. It's put into the pipe, and the smoke goes. And I you see it no more. And so that connection.

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Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I understand. I Shingobe: Okay. I Godfrey: Yeah. It makes a lot of sense, actually. I Shingobe: All right. So simple, but the--that's what a lot of us try to share out there. But mainly to our own because a lot of them are lost-in color only. We've assimilated a lot. We've I assimilated in color and into others. And you will find that among our people, that you would not tell the difference I between your skin and theirs. And yet, theirProject culture is Ojibwe, and they are Ojibwe. I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. It's in the heart. I Shingobe: Yes, it is. You could take a totally-IHistory could take a child right now, along with my significant other.Society We speak the language. We've been raised that way. Take this little I black child and raise it, and strictly speak the language and everything we do. ThatSocial child would be Ojibwe in culture. I The race only would be black. And this is happening now.

Godfrey: Well, we're sort of- Historical I Ojibwe Shingobe: Drifting. I Godfrey: -yeah,Lacs we're drifting there. But it was very interesting. I Shingobe: That's whatMinnesota they tell me. A lot of people come to talk to me when I alone. And it makes me feel good, you know, that I Millethey're interested in what I say.

Godfrey: Well, you have a good gift for storytelling. How about the I springtime, like maple sugaring? I Shingobe: Yeah. In the springtime--the spring and the fall is my favorite. I might be drifting again, because-- I

20 I I I I Godfrey: Go ahead.

I Shingobe: Okay. In the fall of the year, and what I teach, and you're talking about, how do you deal with the culture, you know, I and bring, you know, so it doesn't be lost. Nowadays, you know, and in my day and stuff there was no fear of death. Today there is. You know, they're always running helter­ I skelter to doctors and all that and then just making I themselves worse. But in the fall of the year you drive down a country road or something and you see those leaves turning-suchProject beauty, I especially sun shining. And you see that there. And those leaves are dying, and they're beautiful. They go back to I earth again. They bring life. And the same way, and this is what I tell my, told my children Historyand in turn tell my grandchildren and great-grandchildrenSociety or anyone else that I wants to, you know, come to me, and listen to me talk and share. So that acceptance of death-so that's just part of I your fall of the year stuff.Social I mean, these combine all the­ now, can you understand that one?

I Godfrey: Yes. Historical

Shingobe: Okay. In theOjibwe spring of the year and tying right in, you know, I and in the wintertime-I don't know where we were in the wintertime or we didn't cover wintertime yet. I Lacs Godfrey: Well, storytelling. I Minnesota Shingobe:Mille Yeah. Still, there, too, is the time when we believe the earth sleeps and rests and, you know, is covered with a blanket I and all that kind of stuff. And that goes right into where we slow down, too. We are as one with everyone. We are animals, too, you know, which a lot of people-[gaspl]--but I we are. We forget that a lot of times. But anyway, in the I spring of the year-

I 21 I I

Godfrey: I'm going to interrupt you. I Shingobe: Okay. I

Begin Tape One, Side Two I Shingobe: I don't know if it's interesting for you or not, if it's worth all I your time to come out here and do a different type of interview. I Godfrey: You mean another time? Project I Shingobe: No. If it's-

Godfrey: Oh, no. This is exactly what I'm looking for. I HistorySociety Shingobe: Is it? I Godfrey: Yes. So, other than the visitors [horseflies] we have here. Social I Shingobe: They have their purpose. And you leave them alone. Historical Godfrey: That I won't believe. I Ojibwe Shingobe: You don't bother them, they won't bother you. They're only I defending to you when they bite.

Godfrey: Horseflies.Lacs I Minnesota Shingobe: Yeah. In the spring of the year-now this year, I been here I Millein the spring of the year. I've also been at Sandy Lake in spring of the year. I've also been in Mille Lacs spring of the year. My mother's part of the family was from Mille Lacs, I you know, like I said, most of my relatives. But I don't remember maple sugaring over there. But I remember it I here, maybe couple of times. Lot of times I remember it in Sandy Lake. I

22 I I I

I They migrated, to the different places, you know, to-but here, yeah, they did. All back of where you see that refuge I up there, there used to be the sugar camps. But they were right near the houses, there, so a lot of them didn't need to, you know, really camp out, 'cause it was all around there. I That was also sharing, you know, going after the water. And all the time, they'd didn't speak to you too much. It was just I by observing and stuff. It was a way of life. Like say, you know, the snakes-they mate in the spring of the year. You never knew to fear them as a child. You never bothered I them, and they never bothered you. If you bothered them, I they would, but that's just the way you learnedProject then. Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I Shingobe: Going out and towards this, towards-IHistory remember this lake [Mandy]. Now this lake here was a spiritualSociety thing, a respect I for the lake that at one time there was a vision here. One person's still alive that did that. But that was-involved not even a vision-it was actual. I don't what it was. I Scientifically it'd probablySocial be explained that the boat almost went under with two people in there, you know, swirling. I And they-you know, anythingHistorical you don't understand, say, well, it's sacred. You know, it's not meant to be. So they I respected Ojibweit and didn't go out. Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I Lacs Shingobe: And during that time and maybe several years later, lightningMinnesota struck in that exact spot again. And they believed I Millethat whatever it was was destroyed. And so now, today, there is people that will go on there. But this-in the spring I of the year towards, when it's beginning to thaw and stuff and when the lake is-the ice is like rubber. The fish would kind of smother, and they would come and just open a place I and throw the fish out.

I Godfrey: Is that right?

I 23 I I I Shingobe: Yeah. And then take those fish, you know, and take them. Then they would put-there's still snow and, you know, like a refrigerator--clean them and stuff. I

Godfrey: Interesting. I

Shingobe: A lot of fish. This is the lake here. One little incident here­ I came with an elder one time, and it happened to be ??? I You know watching when they reach in there. Like they'd say, do it this way. They wouldn't do that. You know, you I watch and you do so. And always, always our tobacco went ahead. We would offer first before we wouldProject even go on the lake, and most of us still do that today. We would no more I than go out and cut that tree without doing it because we needed to use it, not because we wanted to destroy it or I because it's in our way. You know,History because it's a living thing, we believe, and it has a spirit. It'sSociety all part of the total [Chippewa word] the total god which is all of us-you know, I total of everything living. Social I So anyway, this old guy took me out there, and I sat and watched. I mean, say, ??? stuff, you know, just tobacco and I take his pipe, you know.Historical I'd take some of mine, you know, and give to him, put it in the pipe and smoke it. And I watched him,Ojibwe and he'd reach in there and kind of selecting, I you know, what he wanted for his ??? So then I started, you know, and right near where he was. And I happened to get, I youLacs know, must have been bullhead, and you know, they're slipperyMinnesota and slimy, and then I threw it right away. And it I caught him in here. He just up and looked at me, you know, Milleand that was-meant, you're careless.

Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I Shingobe: That's what it meant; he didn't say. I felt bad doing that, and I I knew he felt bad. We didn't have to say, and I learned a lesson right there. Today with our children, grandchildren- I

24 I I I

I you can't do that. You have to speak. You have to speak. And I finally came myself, like you say, to preserve this, you have to speak out. You have to explain. Nothing ever I remains the same. You know, it's-how it is now, if I didn't I speak out, it's gone. Godfrey: It's gone. I see. When did this transition happen, do you think, and what caused it-between the traditional way and I what you've been talking about and its loss?

I Shingobe: I think the boarding schools, education-into that world. think a lot of it was there. It might sound strange. There was-to me, there's no replacement for theProject taking away. I Like we were already educated, but we had to be educated I in the white man world. And I'll use myself as an example.History I didn't go through any one grade, totally, I don't believe, exceptSociety when I was in I boarding school. But as I grew older, I began to, you know, that-and I felt sad, too, because I had to try to get that kind I of education. And I clawedSocial my way, and it was very hard for me, even into college. I was forty-seven years old when I finally got a degree. But I had support through the I Minnesota Chippewa Tribe.Historical There was a Larry Aitken who I was a pilotOjibwe project as a middle-age, traditional, Ojibwe I woman going to college-and the barriers, and how I handled barriers.

I Godfrey: Okay.Lacs Was there some newspapers articles about you at I one time?Minnesota Do you know? Shingobe:Mille Huh-uh.

I Godfrey: No. Okay, 'cause somehow when you said that, it flashed before me, something I might have read in the '60s or I something like that. Was this in the 1960s or later? I Shingobe: This was in the '70s.

I 25 I I

Godfrey: '70s? I

Shingobe: Mm-hmm. I Godfrey: Okay. I Shingobe: And I know I didn't disappointed him, and I didn't disappoint myself. And this is what I feel in much more intense now, I with our people trying to know about their heritage and the barriers because, you know, the way they're educated and the majority, requirements and all that. If you don't do that, I you're failing. And the despair, and everything.Project The frustration, the hopelessness of feeling we're losing, you I know. But I don't think we are. There's still, even what you're doing now. And whether any way that I can I contribute, I probably would haveHistory fulfilled my purpose, too. had a little more difficult time, you know.Society I'm a breed, meaning that I'm sure you've heard, too, among younger I people. Hope that's not on there.

I don't know if I coveredSocial all of spring. We would never in the I springtime and the beauty of the flowers coming up, tying right back to fall, to go Historicaland pick a flower, break it, and bring I it to someone because you're killing it. You kill that. You learn to takeOjibwe some air and just admire it. Like, I don't know if it's your culture or not, but maybe you've had flowers on I your table. We don't do that. Lacs I Godfrey: You don'tMinnesota do that? Shingobe:Mille -tradition because you're killing those flowers, and I you're displaying a dead flower. I mean, that's- I Godfrey: See, we would do it out of our own garden. But, for instance, we would-here we wouldn't pick flowers because we would want other people to enjoy them. I Shingobe: Mm-hmm. See now, you'll remember that, too. I

26 I I I I Godfrey: Mm-hmm.

I Shingobe: And usually with the traditional people--and a lot of them, you know, still, they do that with the flowers 'cause it's the I majority culture. They have flowers when somebody dies. With us traditional people, in order to compensate that, we will put plants, living plants. But still, you know, the I others-we respect that, knowing the reason why these people are that, but little by little. It's not a gung-ho thing. I It's a slow process to, you know, so they don't be offended, so they don't be hurt, so they don't a lot of things. In many areas, slow-you don't bang, bang, bang, youProject know, tell I somebody. And it's still today. Am I helping you any?!

I Godfrey: Yes. I'm enjoying myself immensely. One thing I know you're involved is in social programsHistory forSociety the band. I Shingobe: Right.

I Godfrey: When did you get involvedSocial in that?

Shingobe: Probably about in 19-after I came out of college, probably I around 1979, in there, Historical'78. Ojibwe I Godfrey: Was the community center already built by that time? I Shingobe: Yes,Lacs it was. I Godfrey: It was. MinnesotaDo you remember when it was built? Shingobe:Mille Gosh. I'm not sure. I wouldn't be accurate in giving you that-maybe in the '60s. I mean, 'cause we, in East Lake I there, my dad, foster dad, name is Sam Yankee but he was kind of a leader after that, you know. There he had-he was I able to really integrate with, you know, both worlds. He was kind of a leader along with Aubids there, after the removal I from here. My dad bought an old schoolhouse there where

I 27 I I

the center is. See, what's why I've tried to figure out when. I And that was used like a community center, but it was for the drums. The community center that was built- I Godfrey: So there was a schoolhouse that they used prior to that? I Shingobe: Right.

Godfrey: Yeah. I think Julie mentioned-not Julie-Mabel. I Shingobe: Mm-hmm. My dad bought that. My dad was a-this is nice I and strange- He was my what you would consider foster dad or something, actually, the only one thatProject I really knew as a father figure. And my mother, who is ninety-one years I old today. Biological mother died at thirty-two. It was probably-it must have been in the '60s or early '70s. My I dad died in '75. I don't believe we had-I'm not sure. HistorySociety Godfrey: Well, was this something new to have, sort of like a central I place, like a community center? Social I Shingobe: The idea ??? around. My dad and my mom bought up all these plots in East Lake, which after my dad died, because my mom couldn't keep Historicalup with the taxes, turned it over to I tribal land, Minnesota Chippewa Tribe but to retain it in the band's name,Ojibwe Rice Lake band. If that was done or not, I I don't know. After my-it must have been after '75, when my dad died. Yeah, it was. Thp. center was probably built in '76 orLacs somewhere in there because my dad died in '75. And I I rememberMinnesota them tearing down that old schoolhouse. But my mom gave that land for a house for the drums, and that's I Millehow we accept it, how we see it.

Godfrey: Okay. I

Shingobe: And whether this will change again when they build the new center, I don't know. I

Godfrey: Are they going to build a new center? I

28 I I I I Shingobe: I guess so. I don't know. I'm not really involved in all that, so I just stay in my job. Otherwise I'd go nuts. I'm sorry to I be smoking so much.

I Godfrey: That's okay.

Shingobe: As you go through, you're probably good at doing that. I You'll know part of the differences there, from then to here, and how we cope with them. But there's-in this area, there I is many that are really concerned that we know we can never go back to what was. But it can be, youProject know, you I can- I Godfrey: Adjust? Shingobe: -adjust and still follow that morally.History Those have-we see all this stuff happening because of theSociety tremendous change I and cultural clash, crash or whatever you call that stuff. I don't know it. I Social Godfrey: Well, where did people meet before the community center?

I Shingobe: They visited. Historical Ojibwe I Godfrey: They visited? Individually? As one family?

Shingobe: They had places. They had dance halls, you know, they I wouldLacs build themselves. And they visited all the time, and they shared.Minnesota They played games. They had games that you I would play. In the wintertime, you know, they had these Millegames, and it was not just children. It was entire families and go somewhere else, you know, you'd do that. The I games that were shared together, which is not done today.

I Godfrey: So the community center doesn't play that role now, as a meeting place? I

I 29 I I

Shingobe: Just for programs and stuff like that, like what I do. You know, I have-like tonight there's an AA meeting there. Or I like tomorrow night, I have group there-after care group. But, I still have a traditional circle, what you call it. Once a I month we have a spiritual person coming there and doing that or, you know, whoever we know that's spiritual that comes there and does that. So that's part of holding onto I the old and into the new. I Godfrey: Integrating with the new?

Shingobe: Yeah. To survive, I guess you call it, you have to be Indian. I That's a big word. Be Indian, not just wearingProject all these, put on a buckskin jacket or put on "Indian, I'm Proud," or stuff I like that, you know, which happened in the '60s or '50s, maybe even. It's a way of life, and you can still use all those values and that's I guess what we try to do as, in my I History age group. Society I Godfrey: And what about the age group after you?

Shingobe: There is some that stillSocial here, anyway. I don't know about I that in Mille Lacs Reservation too much. I think-I don't know. We only have oneHistorical youngster that still speaks the I language and is a drum keeper. That's the only one that's really youngOjibwe at twenty-seven years old. I Godfrey: Twenty-seven? Lacs I Shingobe: Twenty-seven. He's spoken since a child, because he was raised Minnesotawith elders. Two elders raised him. Mille I Godfrey: Has he gone through public education? I Shingobe: He tried, but he failed. And a lot of it-he's self-educated. And that's where a lot of your chemical dependency comes in-could not make it in the public school, and there was I nobody there to, you know, advocate or buff the way and stuff in these public schools. This one does not look ??? I

30 I I I

I He looks like you I Godfrey: He does, huh? [Laughter.] Shingobe: Mm-hmm. Well, maybe a little bit darker, in eyes and all that I kind of stuff. In the age under, say my children, who are in, the ones now are at forty-I got a forty-year-old son and a forty-two-year-old son-they speak the language. One is a I drumkeeper. They're still there. But they've lost in between, too. They were lost then. But they are trying, I especially one of my sons. He's in the language, and he went to school in order to obtain the degree so he could teach, so he could get funding. That's necessary.Project Which we I would say now, "Why should I have to go to school, you know, when I can already speak my own language?" But I learning, you know-like me, I wouldn't know what vowels and past tense and all that stuffHistory would be in my language. It's not necessary for me, but it is necessarySociety for those, like, I say, my son, who's done that, who got the degree now to teach. I Social Godfrey: Which son is this?

I Shingobe: That's David Aubid. Historical Ojibwe I Godfrey: David.

Shingobe: And the other one is Commissioner of Education at Mille I LacsLacs Reservation, the school. Minnesota I Godfrey:Mille Yeah. I think I met him one time. Shingobe: Yeah. He speaks the language, too, and he go and tried to I work out something with my son. But my youngest one is­ youngest living one, son-is the one that is doing that. Now, I does that help you in turning from the old to the new, too? Or from the-? I

I 31 I I Godfrey: Yes. I'm trying to figure it out. I Shingobe: Okay. I Godfrey: So most children-

Shingobe: I raised six of my grandchildren after my son, oldest son, I died due to chemical dependency. So I raised six of his children. Three of them that were with me most of the time I understand the language, not the deep, but the basicl The others can get by. I Godfrey: I see. Project I Shingobe: At one time, too, we were-some of them who were elders before us would try to speak to us in English, you know. It was for us so we would get along. They meant well, but we I lost there, too. I'm one of the moreHistory fortunateSociety ones. I always feel in my heart that there is a purpose that I be instrumental I in a little bit of the way to preserve-and not only to preserve it in the archives,Social to live it. I Godfrey: To live it every day. Historical I Shingobe: Yeah. Ojibwe Godfrey: Yeah. Well, do most of the children here go to public I school, or do they go to the school in Vineland? Lacs I Shingobe: No. Minnesota Godfrey:Mille No? I Shingobe: They didn't get along there. That's too far in every way. I Most of them here, again, for survival, although they have a tremendous-it's a tremendous handicap, in a sense, to go to public school-they do go to public schools. They have to I learn that there is prejudice out there. They have to learn that. If you-like with me, I would prefer, you know, being in I

32 I I I

I the ??? But you got to have that thing there that, no, they are not going to be protected all the time. There will always I be prejudice, and you've got to live with it and learn how to-how would you say that?

I Godfrey: How to handle it, deal with it? I Shingobe: Deal with it and understand it? Godfrey: Mm-hmm. When you were growing up, was there a lot of I prejudice and- Project I Shingobe: Yes, there wasl I Godfrey: -segregation? Shingobe: Yes, there was-tremendous. History I Society Godfrey: In this area right here, East Lake?

I Shingobe: I didn't feel it at first until,Social probably until I went to school. The first public school that I ever went to was in the Sandy Lake area, and that's whereHistorical I went to school with Mabel part I of the time there, too. And yes, there was. The majority was non-Indian.Ojibwe We had no support. We were-even the I teachers'-

Particularly, one time that, you know, I always remember is I theyLacs were teaching Hiawathal Okay. And the word KitchigumiMinnesota is the way they pronounced it, and I attempted to I correct. I said, "That is not the way you say it." You know, MilleKitchigami. And the teacher corrected me, and I said no, "It's Kitchigumi." I really got called on that. They would I not-

I Godfrey: They wouldn't believe? I Shingobe: I had to say it their way. They would not accept Kitchigami.

I 33 E I

It was Kitchigami. So in order to- which to this day, I still I remember and think. I wish I would have just held and seen what happened. I Godfrey: How about after school, after you got out of school? Did you encounter a lot of segregation, prejudice? I Shingobe: We rode the bus. Oh, you mean after I got out of public I school or out of school-school?

Godfrey: Out of public school. I Project Shingobe: Older. I Godfrey: Older, yeah. I Shingobe: Yeah, I did. Perhaps when I wasHistory younger a lot of times it was even among my own people. WhenSociety I first began to know, that awareness that I was a mix-blood. First time that I I knew that, I was in Sandy Lake, and that's who they were-­ my cousins and playmates.Social And they must have finally-you I know, it came to them. They all had black hair. Mine was reddish hair. And it wasHistorical called to my attention, and the lighter skin. See, that stands out in my mind, first time I I knew the difference.Ojibwe And I went and asked my mother, you know, why my hair wasn't black. And what--only thing she I said to me was, because you were born that way! [Laughter.] And for a long time, okay, all I would tell these kids is I was bornLacs that way. But yeah, it was. [Chippewa words]. Adults I even againstMinnesota children. It was much more so when we were Millechildren and young adults than it is today. I Godfrey: Do you feel that way? I Shingobe: I think so. But, oh, maybe it's just still there, but I can tell right away when somebody's-maybe it comes out more I now, too, because of the casino over there. We're supposed to be getting lots of money. I

34 I I I I Godfrey: Yeah?

I Shingobe: And we don't get it. It's all in economic development. Public seems to think we get some. Checks every month I I [Laughter.] Living high off the hogl Godfrey: Well, let's see. My notes say here that you were a district I representative. I Shingobe: Yes, I was. I Godfrey: When were you a rep? Project Shingobe: From 1982 to 1986.

I Godfrey: Okay, so that was during Art Gahbow's? HistorySociety I Shingobe: Right.

Godfrey: What can you tell me about your experience as a rep and I what issues maybe wereSocial important to you in your community. for instance? I Historical Shingobe: That's when we first started this separation of powers, during thatOjibwe time when I was in there. From RBC­ I Reservation Business Council-to separation of powers, and I was in the legislative branch of the government. I Lacs Godfrey: I see. I Minnesota Shingobe:Mille It was very new. It was when we started our laws. A lot of­ we paved the way to what is now there-a lot of mistakes I and a lot of things. I Godfrey: Like, for instance? Shingobe: We got-caught it from the Minnesota Chippewa Tribe, I I mean, but-I guess when I was in there, what we always

I 35 I I

tried to hold in was sovereignty, our sovereignty. And Art, I no matter whatever else-he did a lot. He was one of our greatest leaders. He stood strong against great controversy. And a lot times that we were, the programs had withheld for I us because we as a whole, the band assembly, legislative branch, and Art, would not-and mainly him-it would not I chip away on our sovereignty to let some things go for money or programs that would come on. By holding strong, even though our people suffered-but the greatest thing, I even today, and it's being chipped on, is our sovereignty as a nation. Indian people are sovereign people. I guess that I was-when I was in there, yeah, that was topProject priority. Godfrey: Did this also mean sovereignty away from the Minnesota I Chippewa Tribe as well? I Shingobe: Pardon? HistorySociety Godfrey: Was this also sovereignty from the MCT? I've never I understood the relationship between the band and the Minnesota Chippewa SocialTribe and how- I

Shingobe: In 1934, I guess that's when they formed the Minnesota Chippewa Tribe, consolidatingHistorical all six reservations into one. I That one, youOjibwe would have your separate government structure in a way. But still, it's long and lengthy. You I would have to be in there all, except for Red Lake, which is totally away from the other six reservations. The Minnesota ChippewaLacs Tribe consists of constitutional officers, two from I each reservation:Minnesota the chief executive or tribal chairman, whatever they call, and the secretary-treasurer. They are I Milleconstitutional officers. The other three in tribal government from each district-like, where I was from, I was in tribal government and representing district two as a legislator. I That's when we were changing, you know, and weaning from the old RBC system. I Godfrey: Who's representative under the ABC for East Lake? I

36 I I I I Shingobe: Marvin Brunelle.

I Godfrey: Okay. I Shingobe: Yes. At that time, I think my biggest-what I had a hard time was with people not understanding that even though I was in tribal government at the time, that I just couldn't go over I there, you know, when they're requesting something, you know, and get it for them. You know, that type of thing, that I today there are systems- I Godfrey: For handling that. Project Shingobe: Yes. And you have to go through the process. And that I I was just in the legislative branch of the government. The three different governments similarHistory to the government of the United States, I guess. But we had thatSociety all before, too, you I know.

Godfrey: Well, is the band trying to break away from the Minnesota I Chippewa Tribe? Social

I Shingobe: Yes, they are. Historical I Godfrey: They are?Ojibwe Shingobe: Yeah, because, you know-you mean the Mille Lacs I ReservationLacs band?

Godfrey: Yeah. Minnesota I Mille Shingobe: Yeah, they are. It's been going a long time. Even in my I time, we tried that, and they keep blocking. Maybe eventually they'll get it, which would be good because every-if they had a big debt under the Minnesota Chippewa I Tribe, each reservation had to pay some of that, even though maybe it went to White Earth Reservation. Like there I was a ranch there one time, which caused very-and they

I 37 I I

lost. So in order for us, we had it all. I don't like to go into I politics. I Godfrey: Okay.

Shingobe: The shares, you know, that each reservation had to pay. I Godfrey: Okay. Well, what about East Lake's relationship with the I Park Service here or Wildlife Service? Do you get along pretty well? What kind of relationship do you have for here at the refuge? I Project Shingobe: It's fair. I Godfrey: It's fair? I Shingobe: According, you know, they have Historyto follow regulations, too. And they-I suppose they respect us, butSociety a lot of times, you know, maybe there is some friction there. But usually it's, I I mean, if you negotiate and work out. We determine how many boats go on the Sociallake. We determine who goes on the I lake. We determine when it starts. We determine when it ends. And in turn, whichHistorical never was, you know, tve going out there have never disturbed wildlife. That was the biggest I thing. We don'tOjibwe take radios out there or anything. We-and it's always been that way. Even as I remember back the I years, it's rotated so you don't destroy the rice.

ButLacs in turn, we have some animosity towards these people I monkeyingMinnesota with nature. Sometimes the lake is way up and sometimes way down, where the lake used to be full. And I Millenow's there's a lot of these moose leaves. We call them [Chippewa word] and I don't even know if that's what you call them in English. But that's what we call them in Ojibwe, I [Chippewa word]. And all this other stuff, you know, that's out there in that lake. I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. This is a plant that you're talking about? I

38 I I I I Shingobe: Yeah, it looks like big elephant ears.

I Godfrey: Oh, okay. I Shingobe: And in Ojibwe we--it look like moose ears, so we call them moose ears, [Chippewa word]. I don't know what you call them in English. We would be allowed camping if we I wanted, I guess. But they have some, and I can-we understand that, you know, but our dream still lives. This is I ours. I Godfrey: To get it back? Project Shingobe: This is where our hearts are, our spirituality is. To us, this is I a very sacred place, and especially the lake. History I Godfrey: So the lake has a special meaning to theSociety East Lake people? Shingobe: Yes, it does. Right. Very, veryl That's the only thing we've I been able to hang onto,Social it seems-and our drums. Godfrey: I see. And that's prevalent throughout the community? I Everyone has a feeling Historicalabout this lake-- I Shingobe: Right, right.Ojibwe Godfrey: -and place, what it symbolizes? I Lacs Shingobe: Right. MinnesotaIf we had somebody-we'd get guests and stuff in I there. If anyone--there's rules-if anyone breaks the rice or Milleraises Cain we have committees out there. They're warned. After that, they're off the lake. Usually we don't need no I enforcement. If we do, we would be here, but usually we handle our own. There used to be permits. We don't have permits anymore. We don't-we didn't feel we ever would I have to. We have gone to court over this lake, you know, one time. We have had refuge managers here that would I bend backwards for us, and then again we've had some that

I 39 E I

wer~ I Godfrey: Do you want to mention names? I Shingobe: There was one that they called Dundas (?). He was- I Godfrey: He was good or bad?

Shingobe: He was good. I

Godfrey: He was good. I

Shingobe: There's medicinal plants out here. We feelProject that we could just go out and take them, you know, just do our offering and I everything, 'cause nobody owns anything. However, you know, like, with me, I will go up there and I'll tell them, "I'm I going to go get this medicine outHistory there." Usually, they'll say, "Go ahead." And that's the way ofSociety not being- I Godfrey: Confrontational? Social I Shingobe: Yeah. But we don't feel here that we own it. But the government says they own it. We feel this is our home. You know, we were put here.Historical I Ojibwe Godfrey: Do you have stories about how you got here as a people, to I Sandy Lake, in this area, and to Rice Lake?

Shingobe: Yeah,Lacs I do, but it'd probably take a long time. I have to be in I Grand MinnesotaRapids to do a Rule 25. I Godfrey:Mille Oh, okay.

Shingobe: Sandy Lake-they claim that the migration came, you know, I they all migrated from the east. This is not from the books. This is from what you hear. Oh, no, I can'tl I Godfrey: Okay. I

40 I I I I Shingobe: I just really can't. It ties in with something else.

I Godfrey: Okay. It's four o'clock now. I Shingobe: Yeah. I Godfrey: Do you need to leave? Shingobe: Yes, I do. I Godfrey: Okay. Project I Shingobe: But if you want more time, I can do it. I don't how soon you want this. Did we just want to pick up everything? I Godfrey: I think we got most of it, except Historyfor maybe some business I stuff. Society Shingobe: That's okay. I can stay maybe till four-thirty. Social I Godfrey: For instance, how do people make a living around here? How did they-when you were growing up for instance, how I they're working- But toHistorical do that, I'm going to have to put another tape in. Ojibwe I Shingobe: Oh, go ahead.

I Godfrey: Okay.Lacs Take a little break. Minnesota Shingobe: Yeah. I Mille I Begin Tape Two, Side One

Shingobe: It's probably common knowledge with you that in my time, I we were taught that you never intermarried with your clan. I That was to prevent-you know, you scientifically know that I 41 I I genetics are involved and all that, and that was their way. I And about, when we were young, you know, how they whistled our names, you know, and each child knew their whistle. You know, when they whistled at you, then you I came. We never played after dark. I Godfrey: Why is that?

Shingobe: They would tell us that you don't know who your-who was I out there, who you're playing with. There's evil spirits, and there's also good spirits, but you don't know who you're playing with. They didn't say· spirits. They just said, "You I don't know who you're playing with. You can'tProject see them." So that was their way, you know, that we didn't go around at I night. We didn't have to be told very many times. We just never played and running around like they do at night, I coming in one, two o'clock. Nightfall-youHistory were in. And if you-if there was ceremonial dances, Societyyou were always accompanying your parents. The girls would never go I outside alone without their mother or, you know, female relatives, running aroundSocial like that. I Godfrey: How would you meet boys? Historical I Shingobe: In the daytime or during the dances, you know. They-boys would giveOjibwe you maybe a blanket, and you danced with him. And then later-some of the stories that I've heard about I how they did that, you know, how their marriages were arrangedLacs and stuff or how-they didn't call them marriages. I You know,Minnesota you just lived together, but it was agreed by the parents. You know, they would be good to each other. This Milleone old lady was telling me about that. I Godfrey: Really? I

Shingobe: They would send out-they had, they always had, in the village, they'd have [Chippewa word]. That's what I I remember about here-was the one that would go out and say there was going to be a feast here at so-and-so's place I

42 I I I

I and give them tobacco. And they sent tobacco, then they would come to the feast. [Chippewa word] would be like a I messenger. The difference now-I only see that done in the ceremonial dances, only in the buildings or only handing out the tobacco, that there is going to be a dance. I don't see I that anymore.

I Godfrey: Anymore. One area we didn't talk about is how people make a living.

I Shingobe: In those days? Project I Godfrey: In those days and- Shingobe: What I can remember is that whole families-we would I gather berries. The whole family would go out there and pick berries, and then they'd sellHistory the berriesSociety and then buy I their staples or whatever, shoes or whatever's needed. And ricing.

I Godfrey: Who did they sell theSocial berries to? I Shingobe: [Chippewa word]. WhiteHistorical man. I Godfrey: Passing-Ojibwelike peddlers? Shingobe: Oh, maybe stores. Or somebody would be there at a certain place to buy the berries, or they-you know, maybe they­ I alwaysLacs was a person there. Minnesota I Godfrey: Did they sell for money, or did they sell for goods. Do you Milleknow?

I Shingobe; I think they sold for-what I can remember is money. Then they would buy their own. They might have-before me, I they might have traded off. I don't know. But even then, you know, in the communities, they would-if they were short on I something, they would trade each other. They'd barter and

[ 43 E I trade. I can remember that, and I can even remember that I up till early time of my first marriage doing that. They­ some of them men would cut pulp, and a lot of times then they'd move away from the area. You know, wherever the I pulp was, the whole family would go. And the kids and stuff in the summertime would even be doing that-peeling pulp. There was cutting the pulp. That was in later times. Maybe I the women would do beadwork and sell that or baskets. I can remember in Sandy Lake-I mean, when I stayed in I Mille Lacs Lake, where they had baskets hanging all along the road. We'd make little canoes, too, you know, and then they'd be set out on the side of the roads there. I Project Godfrey: Is this by the trading post? I Shingobe: All over. I History Godfrey: All over? Society I Shingobe: All over, along the road there. We would camp right there. It didn't matter whose land it was, then, you know. It just-I don't whether the old Socialfolks asked or not, but it was all over I there from way from, maybe along all from Onamia to the end of that coast at WigwamHistorical Bay. They had them all along I in there, where they were hanging baskets. And here, I think they Ojibwewould maybe sell them to whoever would buy them, I guess, go around, maybe tourists. I

Godfrey: WasLacs there a general store here or trading post? I Minnesota Shingobe: Yeah, there was. Yes. There was a farmer's store, we Millecalled here. That's-when I had lived here, there was no I road. There was just a railroad track. All this is railroad been- I Godfrey: That's right. I Shingobe: -going there. And we used to walk to East Lake there, and right coming out onto the highway there, that store that's still I

44 I I I

I there used to be an old farmer's store, they called it. Old general store had everything in there. There also was one I where that Tony Spicola they called him. That's the one that let us live on this lands-squatting or so to speak.

I Godfrey: Tony Spi-? I Shingobe: Tony Spicola. I Godfrey: Spicola? Good Italian name. I know, because I'm Italian. Shingobe: Oh, yeah, and he could understand. I Project Godfrey: Ojibwe?

I Shingobe: Uh-huh. He talked mostly. HistorySociety I Godfrey: Had he been there a long time? Shingobe: Mm-hmm. He did. He was the one that would in the fall go I out, you know, with hisSocial car and this little trailer where, with the goods in it. Another one came from Isle. His name was Herb Nyquist. Those were the two that went out to the rice I camps and would bringHistorical food and stuff like that, you know. Then the IndiansOjibwe would buy it there. And then they were the I ones also that bought the wild rice and then in turn, you know, just simply there to buy the-whatever they wanted, snuff or groceries or maybe a few c.lothes, maybe even some I shoes.Lacs Minnesota I Godfrey:Mille What time period are we talking here? I Shingobe: The fall of the year, ricing. I Godfrey: What year? Shingobe: That was- I

I 45 I I Godfrey: About? I Shingobe: When I remember, probably about '35, '36, '37, '38, in those years. Right up into the '40s, I believe they still did that. I 'Cause they were still camping out then by these different lakes, over by Sandy Lake, too. Sometimes the crop would I be poor here, and then we'd go and camp over by Lake Minnewawa, not where Mabel lives now. On the opposite side there was. I Godfrey: On the north side? I Shingobe: Yeah. There was a campground there. AndProject in turn, you know, if it wasn't a good there, you'd come over here. I

Godfrey: And the general store here? When did that close down? Recently? I HistorySociety Shingobe: It's still there. I Godfrey: It's still there? Social I Shingobe: It's had several owners. I still think about that old one, where it was wooden floors.Historical I Godfrey: But that wasOjibwe torn down long ago? I Shingobe: No. It's still the same one, except the floors are not wooden anymore.Lacs They used to, like, maybe charge if they really I neededMinnesota something, maybe salt or sugar or tea. Coffee was not-I never knew of them drinking really coffee. Tea I Millebought, maybe tea-but most of the tea came out of the woods. But like sugar or something like that, you know, once in a while, maybe. Whatever they needed there, they I would, you know, maybe charge. That wasn't much in those days. And they'd pay it off whenever they got money, maybe in the fall in the year, maybe trade back some rice or I whatever. I

46 I I I

I Godfrey: And this was Spicola that was running? I Shingobe: No, that was in the farmer's store, and it was also in Spicola's.

I Godfrey: Farmer's store. I Shingobe: There was two stores there. I Godfrey: Okay. I'm confused. Shingobe: You went to the center. Coming around that curve, that one big building there. It's been remodeled andProject everything. I That was our guy, Tony Spicola.

I Godfrey: Right by the center? History Shingobe: Yeah. Right around the corner-that bigSociety white house there. I There's a trailer house on that side. He was our guy.

I Godfrey: Yeah. And how long Socialwas he here?

Shingobe: He was probably there-I went away a few years after, and I he was probably there-jeeze,Historical he was there ever since I I could remember,Ojibwe up till probably in the'60s, when he died. Godfrey: Then he died?

I Shingobe: AndLacs the person that lives there now bought that place. But it was postMinnesota office and everything there, too. That's how I think I he got to know Indian people, by walking from McGregor and Millecarrying-and starting out then, from there, and then from I there to that store he bought. Godfrey: Interesting. And then the railroad tracks went right by there, I too? I Shingobe: The railroad tracks were-but when I first remember, the

I 47 I I

train did not run. It must have been a few years before that, I when the train stopped running through here. It only came as far as East Lake. There was a ramp there, and there was an old station there. But up to the time when they kicked us I out of here, there was no road. They used to have them old Model Ts and stuff, and just right on the side there, you I know, bumping over those ties. We used to walk to town there and walk on those railroad ties. But the railroad used to go right through here. They used to also from here, when I they started to mix a little bit and Kimberly, they call it. It was a pretty bouncing place, you know. There was a post I office there, there was a tavern there, there was a dance hall. We'd call it [Chippewa words], FrenchProject dance, they called it. [Chippewa word] is French or barn dancing. You I know, they-

Godfrey: Is there a community called Kimberly now? I HistorySociety Shingobe: Yeah, there is, but, I don't know, it's kind of gone, too, now. I There's nothing there-no store, post office. The store was there yet, or store andSocial post office was there yet in 19- maybe about twenty years ago, maybe, yeah, about that, I about eighteen, fifteen years ago. And you can still see the structure there. But I canHistorical remember riding in those-even in I Sandy Lake over there, we had to walk about three-four miles to whenOjibwe we first went-and Mabel was one of them, too, from the village over there-to the road to catch a bus. I And walking there-in the wintertime, if we stayed out there, theyLacs brought us by horse and the sleigh things. I Minnesota Godfrey: You have a very good memory! Mille I Shingobe: Well, those were real good times. Maybe I tend to remember good times more than I do when I became aware that there I was a difference between-I don't know. It wasn't truly just us; it wasn't truly just a way of life. There was another way of life, and we didn't belong there. We weren't accepted I there. That's just the recent years now. They lived in shacks. That's another thing. We didn't live in houses here. I

48 I I I

I When they moved over here, when they were kicked out, they lived in even wigwams and bark houses and tarpaper I shacks. It's just been, maybe in the late '40s, where they started having, you know, these--maybe not even that­ those kind of houses coming up. They were just built by I themselves. I Godfrey: How about the village here on the refuge land? Was that log cabins, or was that shacks?

I Shingobe: There was more thriving there. They had that one that was a big house that I told you, that was into a school.Project That was I the Aubid. And that old man, John Aubid, is my son's great­ grandfather, who originally came there. I guess he was considered well-to-do in his time, from there, you know, I because he had them built this house. He worked on the river, where they-what-do-you-call-it-IogHistorySociety pushing. He I built his house, and it was a two-story building. And the other ones, they did build their houses out of boards I and stuff, but it was coveredSocial with tarpaper. His was clapboard. My grandfather had one there, where his was­ there was two houses-three-four-fourHistorical houses there that I were good houses. They managed to work around and, you know, getOjibwe this stuff. The other ones were built out of boards I and stuff, and they all helped each other, but using the tarpaper, you know, that type of house.

I Godfrey: YouLacs wouldn't have any pictures or anything-photographs? Minnesota I Shingobe:Mille They burned, they burned. I Godfrey: They burned? I Shingobe: They burned. My house burned- Godfrey: What a shame. I

I 49 I I

Shingobe: -and most of the others burned. My mother might, but I I closely guarded stuff, too. I can just picture it. I can picture it back in here somewhere, where those other houses, I where the Skinaways lived and where the big dance hall was, and where the big maple trees were, and going across this lake, and in was spring of the year when they would I spear the dogfish, what the Indians would say, never tell us where they came from. Later as I read and stuff, you know, I how they migrate to come and spawn and what-<>ur way was, they came to feed us. So you only kill what you eat. They'd dry that all. I remember smoked fish, smoked meat I hanging around out here. And they did. TheProject Aubids-he had horses. Their horses would be corralled in big field. My grandfather had a barn there with a couple cows. I don't I remember him having horses, but I guess he did. Then another great big house there, the Davis, where they lived I was a great big place, too. ThatHistory was realSociety nice home, too. They did. They removed us. That's what he said. The I government wanted, and the government took to make it into a refuge. We got nothing,Social except our lake. I shouldn't say I our lake, either, 'cause in Ojibwe, you never talk about ownership. You own nothing.Historical Other ways that in later years, I suppose, they went out and they migrated to cities I and stuff. OjibwePolitically what the government tried to do was­ that's the United States government-is trying to, more of I the assimilation than to relocate them into the major cities of theLacs United States. And some of it worked. You know, a lot of them intermarried. I Minnesota Godfrey:Mille Did families from East Lake move to the cities? I Shingobe: Yes, my sister did. My sister-she would have been my half­ sister-Qrletta Sharlow. They still live in Erie, Ohio, and- I

Godfrey: Ohio? I Shingobe: -and made well, according to white man's standards, but I

50 I I I I lost-their children do not-they're Indian in color only. I Godfrey: Were they the only family, or were there others? Shingobe: She's the only one that I know. She married a man from­ she had been married prior to that, a man from Wisconsin. I He died. This one she married was from the Fond du Lac Reservation. They did. They took their relocation and went I there. Fairly well-to-do, you know-worked in the Ford plant for many years. But to me-maybe it's okay with them-but I to me, a tremendous loss! I Godfrey: Were you ever tempted to relocate? Project Shingobe: No. I did go to the cities. I was in the cities for awhile, but I I always-this was always home here. I always came home. To maybe make a living, I livedHistory in California for a while, too. I I lived there eight years. Society Godfrey: Oh, that's a long time.

I Shingobe: Yes, but about every twoSocial months I was flying home, you know, to Minneapolis. From Minneapolis I'd come here, and I I'd stay around here a coupleHistorical of months or so or maybe longer. Then I'd fly back. Ojibwe I Godfrey: Why did you go to California?

I Shingobe: BecauseLacs my second husband wanted to go there. We went there. MinnesotaI didn't want to. I didn't want to go there. At that I time, I didn't work. I didn't need to work, but I wanted to Millework. So one day, I just-there he was. He was a good provider and bought a house and all these things. And one I day, I just got on a plane, and all I had was my suitcase. I left, and I never went back. I have no regrets about all that material stuff. My husband came later. There was no-it I doesn't look like, you know, we had ??? or anything.

I That's another story, because of the traditional background.

I 51 I I

What happened there was, my husband died, and he was I the brother. So, traditionally, you know, a long time ago­ and there was a reason for that. Survival-that the woman had to be taken care of, you know, and her children ??? I But my father-in-law told me that I belonged to the brothers after. I Godfrey: Mm-hmm. I Shingobe: And me, you know, I just-and to the point we were, you know, we married and all that, but are good friends to this I day. We still are. That's one thing where the past didn't work with the present, you know-past traditionsProject and stuff. suppose it could have been, but it didn't work. I

To get so I can get going you're talking about-in the field I I'm working, you know, I do loveHistory my job because it's a cultural program. It has a cultural approach-verySociety slow process but it's working. You know, there's many changes I been done, and we try to-through us and through- we're fortunate enough to haveSocial support of chief executive, who is, I you know, really holds onto that Ojibwe cultural approach. Leading all back to what I've been saying before, it's needed. And we have ourHistorical hits and misses there, but I love I working theOjibwe field. I have great compassion for my people­ ties in with my heritage, my culture. Frustrating at time, but I you can't move fast. You know, it's very slow. That's what I use in the field, plus my training, )'OU know, my schooling. All Lacsthat balances. You try to balance it constantly together. I Minnesota Godfrey: Your work isn't just for the Mille Lacs band? It's for the Mille I MilleLacs Chippewa tribe?

Shingobe: Mille Lac is the entire, is composed of these different I bands. We are the Rice Lake band. In Lake Lena, they're the Lake Lena band, and Mille Lacs is Mille Lacs band. In I Isle, they're Isle band. It's composed of different bands. I

52 I I I I Godfrey: Okay. I guess what I meant to say- I Shingobe: The cover thing is Mille Lacs Reservation, Mille Lacs band. Godfrey: This isn't just generally for the Minnesota Chippewa Tribe? I Shingobe: No. I work for Mille Lacs Reservation. I work as-I float. Mainly I was hired for this district, which we never had I before. It was just strictly in the main, and that's where problems come in. You know, prior to that- I Godfrey: District One? Project I Shingobe: Yeah, because everything was located over there. Our present executive, chief executive, you know, is really great. I Not only because she's a woman, but she is. History I Godfrey: I get to talk to her on Friday, so I'm realSociety excited about that. Shingobe: Yeah, she is. She's doing these things, you know. More services are coming out, and that is slow process, too. You I can't go just bang, bangSocial down everything. She's doing it, and she is a cultural person, too. She is also my cousin. I Historical Godfrey: Oh? Okay. Well, I'm looking at the clock, and I know you I have to go.Ojibwe Shingobe: No, that's okay. I Lacs Godfrey: I want to thank you on the tape. I Minnesota Shingobe:Mille Okay. I Godfrey: Okay. That it's been just wonderful talking with you, and I really appreciate you letting me sit here with you in front of I this beautiful scenery here and talk about these things. I Shingobe: Okay. I hope it helps.

I 53 I I

Index to Julie Shingobe Oral History I

General Subject Areas Based on Questionnaire Categories I I I. Daily Community Life at East Lake: Fishing: 12, 23-24, 50. I Ricing: 12, 38-39, 43, 45. I Farming and Gardening: 15, 43. Project Maple sugaring: I 20, 22-23. Fall activities: I 21, 45. History Winter activities: Society 21,28,48. I Spring activities: 21-23, 26, 50. Social I Beadwork and Selling Baskets: 44. Historical Churches: I Catholic missionOjibwe school: 2-3,5. I Local store and trading: 43-47. VillageLacs prior to refuge: I 1-4. Minnesota I II.Mille Social Programs: Community center: 28-30. I

III. Educational Programs: I Boarding schools: 25. I

54 I I I

I Public education: 30, 32, 34. I Cultural program: 52.

I IV. Government Relations: Federal Government Seizure of land: I 4,6. Relocation Program: 4, 6, 50-51. I Minnesota Chippewa Tribe (MCT): 1, 25, 28, 35-37, 53. Project I Reservation Business Committee (RBC): 35-36.

I V. Traditional Life: General: HistorySociety I 25-27, 30-31. Midewiwin: 2, 15, 17. I Ceremonial dances, drums:Social 5, 12, 16, 28, 30-31, 39, 42. Tobacco: Historical I 19, 24, 43. Medicinal plants:Ojibwe I 38-40. Storytelling: 17. I OjibweLacs Language: 20, 25,Minnesota 38-39, 50, 52. I Mille

I People. Places. Organizations Mentioned

I Aitken, Larry. 25. I

I 55 I I Albino, Mabel: I 3, 13, 28, 33, 46, 48. Abits: 6, 9-10, 27, 31, 49. I Aubid, David (Commissioner of Education for Mille Lacs): 31. I Benjamins: 9. Brunelle, Marvin: I 37. Civilian Conservation Corps: 4,6,9. I Dundas: Project 40. I Eagle Clan: 8-9. I East Lake National Wildlife Refuge: History 1, 7-8, 10, 27-28, 33, 36, 38-39, 44, 48, 50. Society Gahbow, Art: I 35-36. Gull Lake: Social 14. I Isle, Minnesota: 52. Historical I Kimberly, Minnesota: 48. Ojibwe Lake Lena: I 52. Leech Lake:Lacs I 13. Minnesota Mandy Lake: I Mille1, 23. McGregor, Minnesota: 47. I Mille Lacs: 5, 7-9, 13-14, 16, 22, 30-31, 52-53. Minnewawa Lake: I 13,46. I

56 I I I i Nyquist, Herb: 45. Onamia, Minnesota: I 44. National Park Service: E 38. Rabbit Lake: 14. I Red Lake: 36. Rice Lake: I 11, 28, 40, 52. Sandy Lake: Project I 7-9, 11, 13-14, 22, 33-34, 40, 46, 48. Sharlow, Orletta: I 50. Skinaways: History 9,50. Society I Spicola, Tony: 45,47. St. Benedict's: I 2. Social Vineland, Minnesota: I 32. Historical White Earth: 2, 14,37. Ojibwe I Wigwam Bay: 44. I Wildlife Service:Lacs 38. Minnesota I Yankee, Sam: Mille27. I I I

I 57 I