Legislative Assembly 12229 8 June 1995

THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 1995 Copies of references to the Local Government Commissioner dated 26 May 1995 to examine, report and make recommendations on certain reviewable local government matters in relation to the Mr SPEAKER (Hon. J. Fouras, Ashgrove) areas of— read prayers and took the chair at 10 a.m. (i) Shire of Kilkivan and the area of the Shire of Cooloola; PETITIONS (ii) Shire of Calliope and the area of the Shire of Monto; The Clerk announced the receipt of the following petitions— (iii) Shire of Kilkivan and the area of the Shire of the Nanango; (iv) City of Charters Towers and the area Liquor Licensing; Police Staffing, of the Shire of Dalrymple; and Mackay (v) Shire of Murweh and the area of the From Mr Casey (81 signatories) praying Shire of Tambo that (a) discussion and debate be reopened (b) Minister for Transport and Minister concerning liquor licensing and closing times; Assisting the Premier on Economic and (b) serious consideration be given to night Trade Development (Mr Hayward)— clubs/hotels closing at or prior to 3 a.m.; and Government Response to the (c) additional funding be provided for an Parliamentary Committee of Public Works increase in police staffing in the Mackay Report No. 29 into the Mackay Small Craft Harbour. district.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT Police Staffing, Gold Coast; Palm Beach Police Station Financial Management Strategy From Mrs Gamin (639 signatories) Hon. K. E. De LACY (Cairns— praying that action be taken to boost police Treasurer) (10.04 a.m.), by leave: The numbers in southern areas of the Gold Coast Queensland Government is committed to the and that a police station be built at Palm development of strong and sustainable Beach. economic growth that ensures rising living standards for all Queenslanders. In April this year, the Premier released From Strength to Housing Commission Accommodation, Strength, a comprehensive strategy to build Innisfail on Queensland's strong economic foundations and meet the challenges of the new From Mr Rowell (25 signatories) millennium. requesting that carports be attached to Housing Commission accommodation in From Strength to Strength encompassed Innisfail. a range of initiatives aimed at further enhancing the domestic and international competitiveness of Queensland business, and Abortion Law providing the building blocks to accommodate From Ms Warner (139 signatories) and sustain future economic growth and praying that sections of the Queensland development. Fundamental to this approach is Criminal Code which make abortion unlawful the Government's continuing commitment to be repealed and that abortion services be sound financial management and low taxes, established in the public hospital system and which are central to the creation of an community based women's health centres with internationally attractive environment for no charge attached to this service. business. The focus of my statement today is on the area of fiscal and financial Petitions received. management. It is indisputable that Queensland's PAPERS financial strength is unrivalled. We have achieved the lowest tax regime of any State in The following papers were laid on the Australia at the same time as reducing net table— State debt. This has allowed the Government (a) Minister for Housing, Local Government to initiate a major expansion in expenditure on and Planning and Minister for Rural social services and infrastructure, without the Communities (Mr Mackenroth)— need to increase the tax burden on 8 June 1995 12230 Legislative Assembly businesses and households. Roughly 12 to undertake the reforms associated with the months ago, I tabled in Parliament the Financial Management Strategy. Financial Management Strategy—Improving I have pleasure in laying before the Financial Management in the Leading State. House a report on progress achieved to date Today I intend to table a progress report on in implementing the Financial Management this strategy. Strategy. The report includes detail in relation The Financial Management Strategy laid to each of the 17 initiatives being the foundation for Queensland to remain the implemented. It also includes copies of two leading State well into the foreseeable future. recently completed policy initiatives: a new The strategy has three specific goals: ensuring Public Finance Standard for improved that the Government services are provided on management of the State's considerable the basis of best value for money; maintaining physical asset base; and a policy framework the State's infrastructure in a condition that is and guidelines for the introduction of client appropriate for present and future service standards by Queensland Government generations; and preserving the long-term agencies. financial stability of the State. The Mrs SHELDON proceeding to give notice Government has pushed ahead with the of a motion— reforms implied in this document and has Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will completed the first phase of the reform resume her seat. I have asked members in process of financial management in the the past to give notice of a motion in the Queensland public sector. proper form. The member is making a To date, 17 new initiatives have been statement. That is not a motion at all; it is like identified to ensure sound financial a speech. Notices of motion should be management and the adoption of a culture of motions put before the House rather than continuous improvement. Through the members outlining what they think or feel. The Financial Management Strategy, this member will table that notice of motion. It will Government is requiring agencies to, among be edited by the Table Office and it will appear other things, establish a clear client focus, in edited form in the notice paper. strong fiscal discipline, high standards of Mrs SHELDON: Mr Speaker, I have expertise for staff, clearly stated objectives and followed the form of a notice of motion. Could strategic approaches to service delivery, more you point out to me where I am wrong? I had appropriate levels of management authority almost finished my notice of motion, apart and autonomy, improved performance from the part starting with the word measurement and evaluation and "condemns". Mr Speaker, I move— strengthened accountability. Considerable progress has been made in the first 12 "That the member for Caloundra be months of this reform package. The first phase further heard." has seen: all agencies surveyed on their Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am merely status relative to the initiatives of the Financial saying that notices of motion should be in the Management Strategy; agencies developing form of a motion and should not be an formalised plans for implementation of the occasion for debate. I will allow the member to process; and firm timetables established for finish giving her notice of motion. If the the completion of reforms identified. member went to a P & C meeting or a It is pleasing to report that agencies have meeting of any similar group and moved that already made good progress in a number of notice of motion, it would be ruled out of order. areas and that benefits are already starting to The member is indulging in a debate. She accrue well ahead of schedule. Some of the may conclude reading her notice of motion, non-financial benefits which have occurred to but the table staff will edit it. date include: improved awareness of financial Mr Gibbs: This is the first representation management processes amongst senior you have made for your electorate in three management; a greater understanding of the years. role of financial management by program Mr Veivers interjected. managers, that is, those actually responsible for service delivery; improved Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for interdepartmental communication leading to Southport! gains in operational efficiency; and Mrs SHELDON: And that is the one implementation of improved practices millionth lie that Minister Gibbs has told in this identified in other agencies. Agencies have House. I will finish my notice of motion. clearly indicated a willingness and commitment Mr Veivers interjected. Legislative Assembly 12231 8 June 1995

Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the and again this morning, the Minister for Family member for Southport under Standing Order Services, Ms Anne Warner, has attempted to 123A. misinterpret and misconstrue comments that I have been making in respect of the proposed anti-racism rally set down for this coming COMMONWEALTH PARLIAMENTARY Saturday in Townsville and my comment that ASSOCIATION to erect a monument to the late Eddie Mabo Report would not be wise at this time. I made those Mr McELLIGOTT (Thuringowa) comments as a matter of what I believe to be (10.12 a.m.): I table a report on my public responsibility based on two factors: one, participation in the Commonwealth that any further focus on the tragic events Parliamentary Association parliamentary visit centred around—— from 26 April to 12 May. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Firstly, the member will seek leave to make that personal explanation. PERSONAL EXPLANATION Abolition of CJC Mr STONEMAN: I did. Mr Speaker, you said that I had leave. Mr BEANLAND (Indooroopilly) (10.13 a.m.), by leave: Yesterday in this Mr SPEAKER: Order! Secondly, the Parliament, the Attorney-General claimed that member is not allowed to debate the issue. I had publicly advocated the abolition of the Mr STONEMAN: I am not. Criminal Justice Commission. In fact, the Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member said Attorney-General quoted from his own answer that he was making the personal explanation to a question on 7 October 1993, not from on the basis—— something I have said. I have been misquoted before, but I must say that this is the first time Mr STONEMAN: This is the basis that I have been so blatantly misquoted in this of—— fashion. It is an outright disgrace, a blatant Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member is abuse of the privileges of this House and starting to debate the issue; he can only state further, utterly untrue. how he was misrepresented. An Opposition member interjected. Mr STONEMAN: That is what I am Mr BEANLAND: The member is right. saying. This is the basis of how I was Where is the Attorney-General today? I misrepresented. Any further focus on the suggest that he has a few problems. The tragic events centred around the desecration record of my support for the CJC and the of the tombstone of the late Eddie Mabo Opposition's support for the CJC is both well would only bring more infamy to the people of documented in this Parliament and in the Townsville, a community which I believe is no media. In fact, it was only in October last more or less racist than any other community year—— in Australia. Secondly, to carry out the two Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will proposed actions—— resume his seat. In a personal explanation, Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member is the member is allowed to say only how he has debating the issue. He will resume his seat. been personally misrepresented; he is not allowed to debate the issue. The member has already said that he has been misquoted. I QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE think that is all that he is allowed to do. He can Royal Brisbane Hospital say only how he has been personally Mr BORBIDGE (10.17 a.m.): I refer the misrepresented. Premier to statements by the RBH Medical Mr BEANLAND: I will conclude by Staff Association that the hospital's budget is saying that I call on the Attorney-General to inadequate, that cuts in bed numbers have unequivocally apologise to this House for that resulted in difficulties for staff and patients, blatant untruth. that the Health Minister has failed to address the underlying problem of poor policy direction and that plans to further cut the size of the PERSONAL EXPLANATION hospital mean that there will not be enough Anti-racism Rally beds and services to serve the State, and I Mr STONEMAN (Burdekin) ask: how has the Premier managed to spend (10.14 a.m.), by leave: Yesterday afternoon a billion dollars more on public health while 8 June 1995 12232 Legislative Assembly delivering a service that front-line health increase those bed numbers and relocate workers have again rejected as inadequate? those beds to places where the people are, Mr W. K. GOSS: I have not seen the where the need is and where young families statement from that association, so I will are. respond only in general terms. We are As to health services—Labor will lift the spending substantial amounts at the Royal social wage, the standard of living and the Brisbane Hospital, as we have during the life standard of health care. Where has the of this Government, and more money will be money gone? The $5.5m has gone into the spent there because this Government is accident and emergency centre at the PA committed to rebuilding the public hospital Hospital; a new building which is under system of this State from the state of disrepair construction this very day at the Royal and neglect to which the National Party Brisbane Hospital; a new hospital at Logan Government allowed it to descend. City, with a new stage being added and new In the last month, I have been to the beds for a working-class community that the Royal Brisbane Hospital and have seen the National Party treated like dirt; increased beds construction work which is currently under way at the Redlands Hospital; and at Caboolture, at that hospital. Millions of dollars worth of along the coast and across this State. There is construction work is taking place as this an increase in medical services, an increase in Government sets about the task of rebuilding nurses, their wages and conditions, and an the public hospital system. The member for increase in primary health care. What is the Toowoomba South referred to the PA bottom line result of that dramatic and justified Hospital's accident and emergency centre. increase? The result is that, in 1995, under This Government is discharging its Labor, the Queensland public hospital system responsibility there as well with a $5.5m will treat 3,000 more patients a week than it redevelopment of the accident and did when the National Party mismanaged the emergency centre at the Princess Alexandra health system in this State. Hospital. Mr Borbidge: Where's the money Environment gone? Mr BORBIDGE: Not even the health Mr W. K. GOSS: The Leader of the workers like the Premier any more. I refer the Opposition asks where the money has gone. I Premier to the Minister for Environment's will tell him where the money has gone. Right answer to a question yesterday which included now, millions of dollars are going to the PA an attack on Federal Greens convenor Bob accident and emergency centre and into the Brown over his criticism of the Government's Royal Brisbane Hospital. The member should performance on environmental issues. I table go and have a look at it. Construction, at a the Queensland Conservation Council's cost of millions of dollars, is occurring at Royal assessment that only 16 per cent of the Brisbane Hospital. Government's 1989 environmental election Furthermore, yes, the number of beds at promises have been fulfilled. Despite this, the those two major hospitals has been reduced, Government has claimed in its self- and this Government makes no apology for assessment, which I also table, that 59 per that. The number of beds is being increased, cent of its 1989 commitments have been fully and those beds are being relocated to met, while 26 per cent have been partially hospitals in places the National Party met. In tabling the documents, I ask: how neglected, places it did not care about and does the Premier explain the Conservation places where it treated people like dirt. Council's poor assessment of the Government's environmental record and Mr Horan interjected. rejection of the Government's clearly Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the fraudulent self-assessment? member for Toowoomba South under Mr W. K. GOSS: This Government has Standing Order 123A. a proud record on the environment. It is a Mr W. K. GOSS: The National Party record that we will take, with some glee and Government treated those people like dirt pride, to the forthcoming election. We will be because they were working-class people. For happy to stand toe-to-toe with the 20 years, it took the view that they were environmental vandals opposite in every working-class people and that they could be electorate in this State. We will point to the ignored, that they could be treated like dirt and record, we will point to the Bellevue Hotel, and with contempt. Let me tell you, Mr Speaker, we will point to the appalling level of national and let me tell members opposite that we will park estate in Queensland when Mr Borbidge Legislative Assembly 12233 8 June 1995 was in Government with Sir Joh Bjelke- Mr FITZGERALD: That is completely Petersen. We will point to this Government's inaccurate, and for the record, Mr Lingard is doubling of the national park estate. We will not here, but he did not attend that function. point the Leader of the Opposition to Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the properties like Starcke and Silver Plains. He member for Lockyer under Standing Order was a part of the Government which sold off 124. high conservation value coastal Cape York land to property developers. The Opposition Mr BORBIDGE: I rise to a point of does not like that! order. The comment made by the Premier is totally untrue. Mr HOBBS: I rise on a point of order. Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no point The Government sold $1m worth of freehold of order. The Leader of the Opposition will land in the mahogany glider area. resume his seat. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the Mr W. K. GOSS: If Mr Lingard is on an member for Warrego under Standing Order RDO, that is not my fault. 124. Members are taking points of order that are spurious, as that one was. Mr Borbidge: He has gone to a funeral. Mr W. K. GOSS: I accept he is at a Mr W. K. GOSS: The Opposition funeral, but the Opposition has to accept that members do not like it, but the Leader of the that is what the people of Beaudesert tell me. Opposition asked the question so they can The member for Beaudesert would be the squirm a little longer. The Leader of the most anti-environment member of this Opposition was part of the Bjelke-Petersen Parliament. Government that sent National Party Ministers—— Mr BORBIDGE: I rise on a point of order. The honourable member is at a funeral, Mr SLACK: That was years ago. and he is being subjected to personal abuse. Mr W. K. GOSS: It is his environmental Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no point record. of order. Mr Hobbs interjected. Mr W. K. GOSS: I withdraw; the member for Beaudesert is not the most anti- Mr W. K. GOSS: Yak, yak, yak! The environment member of this Parliament, the Opposition cannot take it. The Opposition Leader of the Opposition is. does not want to hear that Mr Borbidge was part of a Government that sent National Party This Government will make sure that the Ministers to every Hilton Hotel in the world to people of the Mount Coot-tha electorate try to stop the Labor Party from saving the understand that Mr Hutton is not a northern rainforests. It took the election of this representative of the conservation movement; Government to stop the misuse of taxpayers' he is a politician seeking to get elected and is money, to stop the destruction of that using—indeed misusing—certain elements of rainforest and to stop the court challenges. It the conservation movement to achieve his took this Government to stop logging on own ends. Mr Hutton has stood for many Fraser Island and to World Heritage list Fraser parties and many causes, and if he does not Island. It took this Government to save the get elected on the back of the conservation Noosa north shore. It took this Government, in movement he will be back at the next election the last month, to save Marcus Shores, the with some other cause and some other front. last fragile link between Lake Weyba and the Peregian high dunes, where a Liberal Party Corporatised Government Entities member advocated development. The Liberal and National Parties supported development Mr LIVINGSTONE: I refer the of that area and it took a positive, pro- Treasurer to reports that the Opposition environment Labor Party candidate and this Leader has promised that, under a coalition Government to save Marcus Shores. Our Government, corporatisation will not be a environmental record will go on. The haven for sneaky taxes. Can the Treasurer Opposition might do a private deal with Mr inform the House whether the Government is Hutton, but the public of Queensland—— using corporatised entities as a cash cow? Mr De LACY: I know who is intending to An Opposition member interjected. use corporatised entities as a cash cow, and I Mr W. K. GOSS: What else can be will come to that in a minute. I never cease to going on when Mr Hutton attends a function to be amazed at the poor understanding that support Mr Lingard in Beaudesert? members of the Opposition have of the 8 June 1995 12234 Legislative Assembly process of corporatisation and what it really would help fund the shortfall in land tax means. It means that we are putting our revenue." Government enterprises on a fully commercial So we know who is going to use basis. They will have a commercial capital corporatisation as a cash cow! I appreciate structure and they will be required to generate that in May Mrs Sheldon changed the policy to commercial rates of return. Flowing from that privatisation. When I said that the other day in will be commercial dividends and taxation this Parliament, somebody said afterwards policies. that they know why the policy changed; it was As for those opposite who are members because Mrs Sheldon changed her policy of a party that used to pride itself on being the adviser. She has got a new economic adviser. party of private enterprise and free Mrs SHELDON: I rise to a point of enterprise—one would think that honourable order. I would like also the date on which I members opposite would understand and changed that to privatisation— accept a few basic commercial principles, but they say that they are going to use Mr SPEAKER: Order! I ask the corporatisation as a cash cow. My point is that honourable member not to take spurious that rational, sensible approach to the points of order. That is not a point of order at management of Government enterprises is all. something that ought to be supported by Mrs SHELDON: It is a matter of having everybody. It contrasts starkly with the the truth on the record. confused and contradictory approaches by Mr De LACY: The important thing is to members of the Opposition, or the so-called have consistent policy advisers so that Mrs coalition parties. Sheldon can have consistent advice. We Mr Borbidge is running around would have some policies if she changed the Queensland talking about corporatisation policy adviser every month. The Government being a sneaky tax haven and saying that it is looks forward to what Mrs Sheldon is going to a flawed concept. He sits in this Chamber do leading up to the election. I know that she beside Mrs Sheldon, the Leader of the Liberal has a policy for corporatisation. Mr Borbidge is Party. We would expect them to talk to one opposed to it. Then Mrs Sheldon has a policy another and to get their policies consistent. Mr for privatisation. Is Mr Borbidge supporting that Borbidge is saying that corporatisation is a one? What a policy package! sneaky tax haven and that the coalition parties would have nothing to do with it. Mrs Sheldon Redcliffe Hospital Urology Clinic is down at the Gold Coast pledging to axe land tax. How is she going to do it? I will quote Mrs SHELDON: I direct a question to from an article in the Weekend Bulletin— the Premier. I table a letter from the Redcliffe Hospital which informs a patient that his "Mrs Sheldon said the State appointment at the Urology Clinic at the Opposition intended to raise— Redcliffe Hospital has been confirmed. The Mr Borbidge: What year was that? letter states— Mr De LACY: I know that their policies "As you will notice the next available change, so the members opposite need to appointment is in 1997." know the date. It is 22 April 1995. I ask: would the Premier be prepared to wait Mrs SHELDON: I rise to a point of until 1997 for an appointment at a public order. What about a little truth? We did not hospital? If not, why should the people of say that we would axe land tax. I suggest that Queensland be forced to wait two years for the Treasurer reads the whole report. basic medical help from our public hospital system? Mr De LACY: This was in April. I know that there is another one in May. Mrs Sheldon Mr W.K. GOSS: It is a management may not have said that, but the Gold Coast matter for the hospital. I will refer it to the Weekend Bulletin said that she said it. She appropriate Minister. I do not actually manage can take it up with the publishers. The article the patient list at the Redcliffe Hospital. stated— "Mrs Sheldon said the State Operation Noah Opposition intended to raise between Mr BUDD: I ask the Minister for Police: $500 million and $700 million by could he outline the success of the annual corporatisation of a number of Operation Noah conducted yesterday by the government instrumentalities and this Queensland police to target illicit drug activity? Legislative Assembly 12235 8 June 1995

Mr BRADDY: This year's Operation Ms ROBSON: I thank the honourable Noah has been extremely successful, member for the question. I have not had a particularly as there has once again been a recent briefing on the status of Woodwark rise in the reported calls relating to organised Bay, but my recollection is that there was a drug activity as distinct from personal use. The contractual date to be met by the proponent. I police coordinator informs me that this year 78 would have to check on the actual date, but I per cent of the calls received across the State understand that 30 June 1996 was a date for during Operation Noah concerned suppliers, completion of part of the agreement in terms cultivators, manufacturers and distributors of of obtaining finance. I am quite happy to get drugs. That is a rise of 10 per cent from last back to the member and provide that year. It certainly means that Operation Noah is information. worth the effort and that the public understand the importance of giving information that Brisbane River Dredging relates to manufacture, cultivation and supply. By 9 p.m. on the day, 1,319 calls had come in Mr BEATTIE: I refer the Minister for around the State, and 78 per cent of them—I Environment and Heritage to the concern in emphasise this—related to supplying, my electorate of Brisbane Central about the cultivating, manufacturing and distributing. As dredging of the Brisbane River near New to the particular drug to which the information Farm, and I ask: could the Minister please related—some 842 calls related to cannabis, explain to the House the work of the Brisbane 131 to heroin, 32 to cocaine, 199 to River Management Committee and the amphetamines and 51 to LSD or Ecstasy. removal of dredging from the urban reaches of the Brisbane River, particularly near New Farm Across the State, the numbers of calls and Teneriffe? have been very significant. There were 157 calls from the south-eastern region based on Ms ROBSON: This is an issue of which the Gold Coast, 177 calls from the the Brisbane River Management Group, which metropolitan south region, 124 calls from the has been set up under this Government to southern region based on Toowoomba and explore issues related to the Brisbane River 203 calls from the north coast region based on and its management and use for the future, Maroochydore. The highest number of calls has been very conscious. We set up a working party to undertake that work. Obviously the received across the State was actually received from the north coast region based on member for Brisbane Central is very Maroochydore. There is no doubt that with the concerned about this issue as residents of increasing use by the public of Operation both New Farm and other near-city suburbs Noah and with the increasing number of have endured for many years the noise and visual impacts of river dredging. people calling in with information about cultivation, manufacturing and distribution, Mr Foley: And Yeronga. Operation Noah is a very good service. It Ms ROBSON: And Yeronga, of course, complements the increased numbers in the as the Minister correctly points out. The Drug Squad and the attempts by the police to Brisbane River Management Group now has a target the real criminals in relation to drug role in overseeing Brisbane River dredging. I activity—the organisers and the distributors of can advise the honourable member that the the drugs. operating conditions that apply to that section of the river are set out clearly in the permits that the dredge companies must obtain from Woodwark Bay Project the Department of Environment and Heritage. Mr SLACK: I refer the Minister for For the area from the Victoria Bridge in Environment and Heritage to reports that the the city to Norris Point at New Farm, those Japanese-owned Laguna Quays resort at conditions include: no dredging to take place Proserpine has gone into receivership. As this within 50 metres of either bank; the dredging development is not far from the Woodwark depth at any point 50 metres from the river Bay site where this Government excised 60 banks shall not exceed 12 metres; the river hectares of environmentally sensitive ocean- bed should never exceed a one in four slope front land from the Dryander National Park to as a result of the dredging; in any one day, enhance a similar proposed development by the minimum distance between any two Kumagi Gumi for the provision of a third golf dredges will be 250 metres; dredging is course, I ask: what is the current status of the allowed in a dredging zone for a maximum of Woodwark Bay project and when is it likely to five hours in any one day; the equivalent noise proceed? level from a dredge's operation has to be less 8 June 1995 12236 Legislative Assembly than 60 decibels with noise peaks remaining audited. If the honourable member cannot below 65 decibels; following dredging in any understand what has been clearly explained, zone of the river no further dredging is allowed and if he has not been able to access the in this zone the following day nor within 250 documents which have all been tabled, I metres of the previous day's dredging position; cannot explain the matter any further to him. the hours of operation are 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., Monday to Friday, and 7 a.m. to 2 p.m. Saturday, with no dredging to occur on Youth Employment Initiatives Sundays or public holidays. Any breach of Mr BARTON: Although youth those conditions may result in the cancellation unemployment continues to decline in line with or suspension of the respective dredging the general level of unemployment, this permit. remains a major social and economic issue for Following the formation of the Brisbane Queensland. I ask the Minister for River Management Group by this Government Employment, Training and Industrial Relations: and in recognition of public concerns that have what has this Government done to help our been expressed by the member for Brisbane next generation build skills and find jobs for a Central and other members about river better future? dredging, a separate working group was Mr FOLEY: I thank the honourable established. It is addressing the specific issue member for the question and note his of management of extractive industries longstanding interest in the rights and welfare operating on the river. As a result of the work of working people. No issue is more important that has been done, I was pleased to be able than the issue of unemployment. It is the to announce on Monday of this week, World great social issue confronting our generation. Environment Day, the phasing out of all In particular, the problems faced by young dredging in urban and city reaches of the people with respect to employment are very Brisbane River over the next two years. I think considerable. Indeed, the current ABS labour this is a very significant announcement for the market figures show youth unemployment at future uses of the Brisbane river, which have 29.6 per cent, that is unadjusted, in April this changed over the past few years. year, which is down from a peak of 34.8 per cent in March 1994. Koala Coast Protection Plan In response to this problem, the Goss Government has adopted a number of Mr SANTORO: In directing a question strategies included in the Goss Government's to the Minister for Environment and Heritage I $150m Jobs Plan. In particular, the Youth refer to her submission to the Koala Coast Jobs Plan component targeted a number of pork-barrelling fund in which she listed schools areas. Additional apprenticeships and according to her own order of priority which traineeships in the public sector saw 335 related to the distance of each school from the young people put into jobs as apprentices and tollway route. I ask: how did the order of her trainees. The housing industry trade training list differ from the priority list finalised by the initiative, undertaken through the Department Koala Coast Secretariat, which the Deputy of Housing, Local Government and Planning, Leader of the Coalition tabled in this House? has seen 320 apprentices and 480 young To demonstrate the point, will the Minister people with group training companies building make her list available for public scrutiny? Government housing. The policy with respect Ms ROBSON: Firstly, I object to the to Government building and construction terminology used by the honourable member contracts and employment of apprentices to refer to that community facilities fund. As I requires a minimum level of apprentices in the have explained to this House, it is a companies gaining Government contracts and community facilities fund which was specifically $450,000 has been allocated over a period of determined, as the honourable member very three years to facilitate that policy. That well knows, to fund people who are affected program exceeded its target of 300 by placing by the proposed motorway. I have explained 454 apprentices and trainees into employment that; I am not going to do it all again. and training. Mr Elliott interjected. Perhaps one of the most important Mr SPEAKER: Order! I warn the initiatives was that conducted by the member for Cunningham under Standing Department of Environment and Heritage, Order 123A. namely, the Youth Conservation Corp, in which young people had the chance to work in Ms ROBSON: The process to which I national parks on revegetation projects, track submitted a proposal was independently restoration and also undertake studies at a Legislative Assembly 12237 8 June 1995

TAFE college. That initiative was funded in the Mr Connor: Who were they? order of $1.2m and helped to place 140 Mr ELDER: Kyburz and Scassola. If the young people into employment and training. honourable member wants to know the others, On an ongoing basis, as a Government he should just keep asking the questions. we have a special duty to assist young, Mr Connor: Who was the other one? unemployed people and that is why $3.2m has been made available to employ an extra Mr ELDER: They are both probably now 20 youth employment consultants for three patients of our hospital system. That is why it was built. It was not built in Logan, where it years, bringing the total up to 60 youth should have been built in the first place. When employment consultants. They have already it was built, it was left with floors empty and exceeded their target by placing 3,390 with a lack of services. He talks about unemployed people into jobs, placing 2,432 commitment from the National Party. What unemployed people into training and assisting a total of 7,670 people. These are positive commitment? When it was built, where was results in assisting disadvantaged groups. Of their commitment? Their commitment was in the young people who were assisted by those their boots. They supplied no services. They youth employment consultants, a number of had no consideration for the people on the them were in areas that face special problems south side; they had no consideration for the in the labour market: 11 per cent were people at Mount Gravatt or Mansfield in the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, 6 per immediate area. The National Party cent were persons with a disability and 42 per Government built it, but it did not prop it up cent were long-term unemployed. with any services. As for the nonsense about the volume of It is true that Queensland is seeing 2,000 work that went through QE II—this extra jobs generated every week, but we still Government has had to resolve the difficulties have much to do to respond to the needs of between the two campuses, that is, the QE II the unemployed and, in particular, the youth and the PA, in relation to the services that we unemployed. will provide at the QE II. It has done that through negotiations with both campuses, the QE II Hospital medical staff associations and others. The Mr HORAN: In directing a question to Government will now provide excellent services the Minister for Health, I refer to the callous at QE II. Already, the hospital has an mismanagement of QE II Hospital, in particular emergency care centre that treats 95 per cent the stripping away of maternity, paediatrics, of the people in that area who walk through the medical ward, intensive care and accident the doors needing accident and emergency and emergency by his Government. I also treatment. People who do not receive that remind the Minister that, before being treatment at that hospital are usually suffering savaged by his Government, QE II was the from significant trauma, and they are treated at the RBH or the PA. The lie is that the third biggest maternity hospital in Queensland member knows that. That is the word for it. He and had the third largest accident and is misleading the people in that community, emergency unit in the State and that the and that is the worst element of his ploys in National Injuries Surveillance Project of 1988 relation to the QE II. showed the QE II treating 3,000 more injuries per year than the PA Hospital. I ask: will the Just so that members are aware, I tell the Minister now admit that the Goss House that today I signed documents to give Government's decimation of the QE II Hospital the QE II teaching hospital status. That is the has been a disaster and that the State commitment from this Government to the coalition's plan to reinstate accident and QE II Hospital. It will be a centre of excellence emergency, a medical ward and an eight-bed in eye surgery and ophthalmology. intensive care and cardiac care ward is the Mr Horan: You can't go there with a only way to restore the services of this once heart attack. great hospital to the surrounding Mr ELDER: People can go in there for communities? any service they need, and the member Mr ELDER: The easy answer is "No", knows it. The member's hollow rhetoric about but I will not let him get away with the easy what he would do in relation to the QE II is just answer—not today. As we all know, QE II was that because, since day one, the National built to prop up two Liberal Party members Party has never been committed to it. This years ago. It was built for no other reason, in Government has taken up the challenge of no other place, but for political need—political integrating the two campuses and supplying grandstanding. services across the two campuses. 8 June 1995 12238 Legislative Assembly

I will finish on this note: it always amazes constructive initiative was to keep doctors in me how critical the Opposition is about positive the system. It negotiated with the doctors to moves within Health. The Deputy Leader of provide the vehicles and the mobile phones, the Coalition asked a question about urology yet that initiative was criticised by members of services in Redcliffe. The reason for a lack of the National Party. That is how petty they are services in many parts of Queensland and, in when it comes to retaining and looking after particular, rural areas, is that we do not have doctors in our system. the specialists who are needed to meet the growing demand in Queensland. Part of my response to that on behalf of the Government Telemarketing Companies was to put in place competitive packages so Mr NUNN: I ask the Deputy Premier and that we could attract and retain specialists for Minister for Consumer Affairs: is he aware of rural areas. What do we hear from the concerns in the community that telemarketing Opposition about those positive steps, which arrangements between charities and are supported by doctors, and which I have marketing companies put more money into negotiated with the specialists, the med. the hands of the marketing company than the supers. and others in Queensland, to keep charity? Can he intervene to ensure that the specialists in the system? I will refer to an charity and people making donations are article written by one member of the National protected? Party about the initiatives to give doctors Mr BURNS: I thank the honourable telecommunications equipment and member for the question. I am aware of these vehicles—something that they never received concerns, because they are raised fairly under the National Party Government, which regularly. Recently, there has been a lot of created an anomaly in this State and made national publicity about fundraising and Queensland less competitive than other whether the money that is raised by charities is States. The article stated— really spent on charitable works or whether it is "The Qld Opposition revealed last spent on other things. week the Queensland Health Department Recently, under section 33 of the is spending $20 million on . . . luxury cars Collections Act, which provides for a written fitted with mobile phones. agreement to be entered into when a Apparently the money is to buy commercial enterprise on behalf of a charity luxury model . . . top-of-the-range—" conducts fundraising activities for profit, I referring to cars— refused to approve two telemarketing arrangements between a charity and a ". . . from the Government's recently company called Century No. 32 Pty Ltd. Both announced $181 million health package." agreements provided for the payment to the Yes, I announced that doctors and specialists company of 70 per cent of the funds raised. would be getting vehicles and mobile phones, So 30 per cent—30c in the dollar—was going because I appreciate the work that they do. to go to the charity and 70c in the dollar was Obviously, the Opposition does not. The article going to go to the telemarketing company. states further— The initial agreement provided for the "None of these vehicles will go to company representatives to contact the public rural doctors." and collect donations on behalf of the charity. Wrong. What does the member call a medical For this, the company would be paid 70 per superintendent? What does he call a senior cent of the donations. medical officer? The article states further— The second agreement provided for the ". . . the so-called incentives should be sale of personalised labels for $42, of which directed to get doctors to the country." the charity would receive $12.60, or 30 per cent of the sale. A price of $5 was obtained by How does the member think he is going to the Office of Consumer Affairs from a retain those doctors? The member who made commercial printer as a reasonable cost of the those comments is none other than Mr labels. So the company was going to pay $5 Mitchell, who represents Charters Towers, for the labels, it was going to receive $42 which just happens to have a medical when it sold a label, and it was going give the superintendent. charity $12.60. A Government member: Who? I am sure honourable members would Mr ELDER: That is a question. Who? agree that when considering those The member is sitting somewhere up the back arrangements the interests of the charity and of the Chamber. This year, the Government's the public are paramount. It was my view that Legislative Assembly 12239 8 June 1995 the public would react in a negative fashion if it What impact will this have on vocational became aware that only 30 per cent of the education and training services on the Gold donations, or the price of the label, would Coast? reach the charity. Mr FOLEY: I can inform the House that I have put on notice that we will continue work is under way on a multimillion dollar to take that stand. The charity was a good refurbishment of the former Stewarts building charity. There was nothing wrong with it. in Southport. The first stage is due to be Representatives of the charity said to me, "We completed in July for an intake of the first 800 really need to raise the money." However, 30c students. This facility is close to local in the dollar is too little to receive from such businesses and represents value for the public activities. If members of the public find out dollar. It is more cost effective than trying to about this, they will not give money. The buy land in the prime area and build a new dollars will just dry up. The message has been facility. getting to the public through national publicity Recently, I approved a contract for around about national telemarketing arrangements, $1m worth of the latest information technology and that has made it very hard for charities to to assist students at the Gold Coast Institute raise money. Most of them do not have the of TAFE in this facility. That will provide almost necessary fundraising expertise, and it is a 200 personal computers and software for the good idea for them to hire experts to do the use of those students. I am pleased to say job. However, it is also a bad idea if the that the Queensland company Rosh-Tech has experts are going to get 70c in the dollar and won the major contract for the supply of that the charity is going to get only 30c in the technology. dollar. This initiative will provide training opportunities for 800 students on the Gold Sunshine Coast Blood Bank Coast. That number will expand to almost Mr TURNER: I refer the Minister for 2,000 full-time places by 1999. It will relieve Health to his answer to my question in this pressure on the three northern Gold Coast House on 31 May, in which he indicated he campuses of the Gold Coast Institute of TAFE was unaware of the position of the Sunshine at Ashmore, Broadwater and Southport. The Coast Blood Bank, advised me to write to him Stewarts centre will specialise in flexible and said that he would look into it. This was delivery. For example, high-tech materials and despite the fact that the member for computer-aided learning will enable students Maroochydore and I had made numerous to progress at their own pace and undertake representations to the former Health Minister study on a flexible basis. Training opportunities on the issue. In particular, I refer the Minister have to be tailored to the lifestyle demands of to a letter written to him by my colleague the the local clientele. member for Maroochydore on 18 May 1995 The funds for this project are part of the on the subject, to which his office replied on $19.3m budget of the Gold Coast Institute of 23 May stating that the Minister was having TAFE in 1995-96. The funds from the State the matter examined. That was eight days Budget this year will buy some 2.7 million before I asked my question. I ask the Minister: student contact hours worth of training. This first, did he deliberately mislead the House in represents an effort by the Goss Government reply to my question of 31 May; or, secondly, to give vocational education and training on is it simply a case that the Minister is the Gold Coast the support that it deserves— completely out of touch with correspondence support which was so sadly neglected by years emanating from his office? Was the Minister of National and Liberal Party rule. attempting to show how coy and clever he could be in response to a genuine question from me concerning an issue of tremendous Community Facilities Grants importance in the provision of health care in Mr FITZGERALD: In directing a my electorate? question to the Minister for Environment and Mr ELDER: No, no, and no. Heritage, I refer to claims by the Minister that grants from the community facilities pork-barrelling program had been advertised Gold Coast Institute of TAFE to the public at the time when she visited Mrs ROSE: I ask the Minister for schools in her electorate to draw up funding Employment, Training and Industrial Relations: applications on their behalf. I table the public what progress is being made on the latest notice that was not inserted in local extension to the Gold Coast institute of TAFE? newspapers until just before the school 8 June 1995 12240 Legislative Assembly holidays on 7 and 14 December last year. price as a local call. This initiative is just part of Given that the Minister's approach to schools the Government's process of providing equal in Springwood occurred between August and access to services throughout the State. By November, when neighbouring schools were using the Statewide number, business people still blissfully unaware, I refer the Minister to will be put in contact with the nearest DBIRD the proposed second round of funding, and I office. The provision of that telephone number ask: when and where will this second $5m enhances the regionalisation process that round be advertised? When will it be open to DBIRD has undertaken. Other initiatives applications and when will the successful introduced by the Government that are applicants receive their money? producing much-needed services for regional Ms ROBSON: The fund to which the business people in Queensland are GOBIS honourable member referred at the beginning and QBLIC. Those programs have been well of his question does not exist. received. I am sure that people now realise that the Government is serious about providing services to regional Queensland. Regional Services, DBIRD The success of regionalisation in this Mr J. H. SULLIVAN: I ask the Minister State, in particular in relation to my for Business, Industry and Regional department, can be measured to a large Development: in view of the importance degree by the way in which the NIES program placed on regional access to Government has been taken up. Some 50 per cent of the services, can the Minister explain what his funds that have been disbursed through the department has done to promote that National Industry Extension Scheme go to concept? regional clients, that is, people outside the Mr PITT: I am pleased to answer the south-east corner of Queensland. We are question of the honourable member. I am delivering services to those people. On a proud to be able to say that the record of this global basis, a further indication of not only the Government and my department is in stark department's but also the Government's contrast to the record which existed prior to attitude to regional Queensland is that in this 1989. As to regional service delivery—prior to year's Budget some 50 per cent or more of this Government coming to power, there were capital works went outside the south-east only six regional offices in my department. corner of Queensland. Fewer than 20 personnel were operating from those offices and the activities emanating from Koala Coast Communities Facilities them were limited, to say the least. They were Fund really front offices for referring information back to head office in Brisbane. The offices had Mr SPRINGBORG: I refer the Minister very little capacity to deliver services. Handing for Environment and Heritage to her claim that out brochures was one of the major activities the Koala Coast Community Facilities Fund undertaken at the offices at that time. was very well advertised, albeit not until the Lip-service was paid to the whole concept of eve of the Christmas school vacation. Given regionalisation. that the school most affected by the tollway, Carbrook State Primary School, which is to Since 1989, the department has lose 30 metres of its frontage to a tollway exit extended its activities. We now have 12 ramp, was unaware that such grants were regional offices spread throughout the State. available, I ask: was the Department of Up to 80 personnel are in those offices and Education officially advised of the program so they are moving into the community and doing that all schools in the area and not just those what should be done through the in the Minister's electorate could apply? regionalisation process, that is, making services accessible to our regional client base. Ms ROBSON: I do not know the answer Those officers are far more pro-active than to that question. As I have said repeatedly in ever before. They have some real decision- this House, I distanced myself from all of that making powers, which was not previously the process. A committee was in place that was in case. charge of doing that. Only this week, my department announced the use of the 13 prefix for DBIRD Education telephone numbers throughout Queensland. Mr SZCZERBANIK: I ask the Minister By dialling the number 13 26 50, no matter for Education: is he aware of recent where people live in Queensland they will be statements in this House by the Leader of the able to contact a DBIRD office for the same Opposition that "the coalition will deliver a Legislative Assembly 12241 8 June 1995 dividend to the people of Queensland in the providing schools with access to information form of better opportunities for Queensland technology? kids"? Can the Minister inform the House Mr FitzGerald: The National Party. about the opportunities that this Government has made available to Queensland students Mr HAMILL: Again, that is an important and how its record compares with that of Labor initiative. By the tenor of the interjection previous Queensland Governments? of the member for Lockyer, we can only construe that he should go to the bottom of Mr HAMILL: I am aware of those the class. When we are looking at the record, comments by the Leader of the Opposition. I the Government's achievements with respect am also aware of some material published in to education funding speak for themselves. the Sunday Mail newspaper last weekend which indicated that the people of Queensland It is also important to contrast the position who had been approached in a survey of of the Opposition; that is, if the Opposition has public opinion had indicated that education a position. In that regard, I was very interested was a vital issue for them in their consideration to learn that the Government is not the only of the position of political parties in this State. I body having trouble finding an Opposition can understand that. We have repeatedly policy on education. The people who have a made the point that education spending in this great interest in education on a day-to-day State is one of the most significant basis seem to feel the way that we do. I refer investments that we as a community can to the parents of the hundreds of thousands make for our future because it is an of kids in Queensland schools. They are investment in the welfare of our young people searching for some indication from the and in their ability to avail themselves of Opposition that it has some education policies. opportunities in the future. For the information of the House, I will read an important extract from a letter sent by the That is why it is important to reflect upon Queensland Council of Parents and Citizens the achievements of this Government with Associations to Mr Borbidge as Leader of the respect to education. A number of questions Opposition. In that letter, the QCPCA seeks spring to mind. We could well ask: who has assurances not only that the Opposition has a brought down six successive record budgets policy but also that it is interested in—as this for education funding in this State? Government is committed to—the importance Government members: Labor! of children's education. The president of the QCPCA has written to Mr Borbidge in these Mr HAMILL: Labor. We did that. Who terms— has brought down record financial support for the non-Government schools sector in this "Mr Borbidge, the QCPCA has seen State? Labor has. We have been responsible little in your education policy"— for that. We have introduced needs-based perhaps it has not seen much at all, because I funding to make sure that those moneys go to do not believe that it has the Opposition's the communities that need that investment. policy— Who has been responsible for a $300m "to suggest that your government would package to reform the school curriculum? We be committed to furthering the have done that. That is another major opportunities available to all Queensland commitment to the welfare of our kids and school students and to Queensland's their future. move towards the development of a Who has been responsible for a $52m quality public education system." program to help P & Cs with the basics? We I table that letter. Talk about a want of have done that. Again, that is another confidence! When the QCPCA is saying to the important initiative of this Labor Government. Opposition, "Where is your policy? What are Who has been arguing the case with the you committed to?" it is a pretty sad Commonwealth Government to get more indictment of the state of preparation and the higher education places in this State? Again, state of commitment of the Liberal and the Goss Labor Government has been at the National Parties to the most significant area of forefront. Who has been funding regional social spending that any Government can campuses to ensure that young people in undertake. regional Queensland can access higher education? Again, that is an important initiative of this Labor Government. Who has Carbrook Primary School brought computer technology into the primary Mr DAVIDSON: I refer the Minister for schools? Who has been responsible for Environment and Heritage to the Carbrook 8 June 1995 12242 Legislative Assembly

Primary School, which is losing 30 metres of its flow over into distribution networks covered by frontage to the south east tollway but which gas franchises. This open access means that has the misfortune to be located in Redlands any person may, for a fee, have access to a instead of Springwood. When the Minister gas pipeline or network for the purposes of took the Administrative Services Minister and transmitting gas to consumers. The concept of the manager of Q-Build doorknocking to hand open access is already being introduced in out $915,000 from the Koala Coast some Australian States. Changes affecting Secretariat to schools, she did not visit natural gas distribution will naturally and surely Carbrook. I ask the Minister: will she now take have some flow-on effects to LPG distribution Mr Milliner to Carbrook, or is that a job for John networks. Budd? Mr SPEAKER: Order! The time for Ms ROBSON: Great question! I think questions has now expired. that I might leave the management of the Redlands area to Mr Budd. RACING AND BETTING AMENDMENT BILL Liquefied Petroleum Gas Industry Hon. R. J. GIBBS (Bundamba— Mr DAVIES: I ask the Minister for Minister for Tourism, Sport and Racing) Minerals and Energy: can he explain to the (11.17 a.m.), by leave, without notice: I House the current status of the liquefied move— petroleum gas industry in Queensland? "That leave be granted to bring in a Mr McGRADY: I thank the member for Bill for an Act to amend the Racing and the question. Let me say from the outset that Betting Act 1980." all the evidence we have indicates the Motion agreed to. existence of a strong and robust LPG industry in our State. Latest statistics show that there are now over 200,000 users of LPG in First Reading Queensland with consumption at about 10 Bill and Explanatory Notes presented and petajoules per year. This equates to 22 per Bill, on motion of Mr Gibbs, read a first time. cent of total Australian LPG use. In recent years, the industry has invested $1 billion in Queensland and employs about 2,000 people Second Reading right around this State. As well, improved and Hon. R. J. GIBBS (Bundamba— expanded terminal facilities—notably at Lytton Minister for Tourism, Sport and Racing) in Brisbane and in Cairns—have led to greater (11.18 a.m.): I move— involvement of competitive suppliers over the "That the Bill be now read a second past few years. This healthy competition has time." displayed itself particularly in the pricing of LPG for consumers. One LPG terminal This Bill will allow bets placed overseas to extension for Brisbane is already in the final be included in Totalisator Administration Board stages and others are, shall we say, in the of Queensland—TAB—pools and also allow pipeline. the TAB to amalgamate net pools with overseas totalisator operators. Overseas There has been a heartening increase in activities will represent a rather marginal reticulated LPG use in many areas of the contribution when compared with the TAB's State, including Cairns, Townsville, Port core business activities in Australia. However, it Douglas and parts of Brisbane. This has led to represents an opportunity which cannot be a steady growth of LPG being used for realised or developed without the introduction domestic, commercial and industrial of this Bill. Under current legislation, the only purposes—now over 60 per cent of overseas opportunities afforded to the TAB Queensland's LPG consumption—and in have been in the area of technical advice and automotive applications. Increasing sale of totalisator systems to other countries. competition within the industry is now exerting This amendment will allow the TAB to pursue a tremendous impact on the industry. significant export opportunities available in the Micro-economic reforms which are fast-growing Asia-Pacific markets. currently focused on electricity and reticulated With international telecasting of Australian natural gas would no doubt have an impact on racing and the globalisation of betting, TABs the LPG industry. For example, requirements Australiawide will be looking towards under free and fair trade agreements for open expanding overseas operations. The future will access to gas transmission pipelines could hold challenges, with other TABs providing an Legislative Assembly 12243 8 June 1995 expanded array of services in a highly BUILDING UNITS AND GROUP TITLES competitive economic environment. AMENDMENT BILL Queensland needs to be prepared to meet Hon. G. N. SMITH (Townsville— these challenges. This Bill will enable Minister for Lands) (11.22 a.m.), by leave, Queensland TAB to compete directly with without notice: I move— Australia's other major TABs—Victoria's TABCorp and the NSW TAB—for the overseas "That leave be granted to bring in a gambling dollar. The Queensland TAB must Bill for an Act to amend the Building Units keep pace with other States to ensure that its and Group Titles Act 1994." service standards remain high. Motion agreed to. Proximity of time zones, the Sky Channel international racing service and major First Reading advances in communications are factors which Bill and Explanatory Notes presented and suggest that there is potential for significant Bill, on motion of Mr Smith, read a first time. market expansion outside Australia. Increased overseas interest in betting on Australian racing provides opportunities for the TAB to Second Reading export its technical services and retailing Hon. G. N. SMITH (Townsville— expertise. Amalgamation of net pools would Minister for Lands) (11.23 a.m.): I move— lead to large and more stable betting pools. This would provide greater revenue for the "That the Bill be now read a second TAB and, through totalisator taxes, for the time." Queensland Government. The racing industry This Bill seeks to amend the Building will also be a winner. Increased profitability of Units and Group Titles Act 1994. It protects the TAB results in higher prize money for lenders who have provided finance for body meetings and greater returns to the three corporate management/service contracts by codes of racing through profit distribution, allowing the lender to take over the contract if incentive schemes and the Racing there is a breach. By-laws which give body Development Fund. Any arrangement or corporate managers or service contractors the agreement entered into by the TAB with an exclusive right to carry on their business will overseas operator will be subject to close automatically be repealed on the termination scrutiny. Betting sourced outside Queensland or expiry of the contract. Most by-laws of this will be transacted in Australian dollars, thereby type relate to letting agent businesses. The eliminating any risk in fluctuations in the amendment will ensure that, at the end of any foreign exchange rate. Betting will also be in contract with the body corporate, the accordance with the rules of the Queensland contractor will not be entitled to restrict the TAB. body corporate from entering into a similar Also included in this Bill are amendments contract with another person. As a result, of a minor and administrative nature pertaining owners will have greater control over their to changing the name of the body controlling community titles scheme. greyhound racing in Queensland and The Bill will, however, repeal section 224 amending some obsolete references (10) of the Act, ensuring that no property rights contained in the Act. The new Greyhound of owners are removed. The Bill also details Racing Control Board of Queensland will now the basis on which information must be be known as the Greyhound Racing Authority. disclosed by a vendor to a purchaser of a lot This is in line with a recommendation in the or a proposed lot in a community titles greyhound racing industry strategic plan, which scheme. It also provides for the rights of a aims to improve the image of greyhound purchaser if that information is inaccurate or racing and broaden its appeal to the greater the provisions of the legislation have not been public. The name change will be part of the complied with. In addition, the Bill clarifies the marketing plan and will signify to the industry transitional provisions that apply to body that this organisation will be spearheading the corporate management or service contracts. process of change that is so vital to the future Contracts that have been signed before success of the greyhound racing industry. 24 October 1994, or that have been disclosed I commend this Bill to the House. in a contract of sale signed prior to that date, will be subject to the 1980 Act. That Act will Debate, on motion of Mr Veivers, continue to apply when those contracts are adjourned. transferred or varied or have an option in 8 June 1995 12244 Legislative Assembly relation to them exercised. However, the with the approval of the Governor in Council or variation cannot be an extension of their term. Minister. This approval process gave the State The Bill ensures that, if a body corporate Government some oversight over the management or service contract is entered operation of these schemes. Under the into between 24 October 1994 and the date of Commonwealth Government's commencement of the 1994 Act for a longer Superannuation Industry (Supervision) Act period than is allowed under the Act, it will be 1993—SIS—all superannuation funds will taken to be for the period allowed under the come under a new Commonwealth 1994 Act. This Bill does not include all the supervisory regime. The trustees of public proposed amendments. Some additional sector schemes, other than the central public amendments will be introduced after they are sector funds, need to elect to be regulated finalised. under SIS to retain concessional taxation treatment. As the SIS legislation holds the I would like to take this opportunity to trustees fully responsible for all aspects of the thank those people who, as representatives of fund, it is now unnecessary for the organisations, gave freely of their time, Queensland Government to continue its knowledge and expertise to officers of my supervisory role, and may even be in breach department to ensure the increased of the Commonwealth legislation. effectiveness of this legislation. Secondly, the Bill amends the Electricity Debate, on motion of Mr Hobbs, Act 1994 to provide that the approved industry adjourned. superannuation scheme which is currently being established is a continuation of the STATUTORY AUTHORITIES existing scheme. The approved industry SUPERANNUATION LEGISLATION scheme is a scheme which is essentially the AMENDMENT BILL same as the existing scheme but structured in such a way as to meet the new Hon. K. E. De LACY (Cairns— Commonwealth Government superannuation Treasurer) (11.25 a.m.), by leave, without standards under SIS. The amendments are notice: I move— necessary to protect the existing benefit "That leave be granted to bring in a conditions and taxation treatment of the fund. Bill for an Act to amend provisions about This amendment is to be operative from the the superannuation provided by statutory date the Electricity Act 1994 received assent. authorities." I commend the Bill to the House. Motion agreed to. Debate, on motion of Mrs Sheldon, adjourned. First Reading Bill and Explanatory Notes presented and MOTOR ACCIDENT INSURANCE Bill, on motion of Mr De Lacy, read a first time. LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL Hon. K. E. De LACY (Cairns— Second Reading Treasurer) (11.28 a.m.), by leave, without Hon. K. E. De LACY (Cairns— notice: I move— Treasurer) (11.26 a.m.): I move— "That leave be granted to bring in a "That the Bill be now read a second Bill for an Act to amend the Motor time." Accident Insurance Act 1994 and the The purpose of this Bill is to introduce Transport Operations (Road Use amendments to legislation governing the Management) Act 1995." superannuation schemes of statutory Motion agreed to. authorities in recognition of new Commonwealth Government superannuation legislation. The amendments will, firstly, First Reading remove the requirement for ministerial or Bill and Explanatory Notes presented and Governor in Council approval for Bill, on motion of Mr De Lacy, read a first time. superannuation arrangements entered into by statutory authorities. Second Reading Since the early 1980s, many Acts establishing statutory authorities provided for Hon. K. E. De LACY (Cairns— them to establish superannuation schemes Treasurer) (11.29 a.m.): I move— Legislative Assembly 12245 8 June 1995

"That the Bill be now read a second The definition of a "public place" is aligned to time." the Motor Vehicles Control Act 1975. In February of last year, the Government By adopting this definition, it means that if introduced new legislation in the form of the an uninsured motor vehicle is involved in an Motor Accident Insurance Act which accident at a place where the vehicle, at the commenced on 1 September 1994. This date material time, would have required registration heralded the start of a new and fairer and therefore compulsory third party compulsory third party scheme in Queensland, insurance, the Nominal Defendant Fund will especially in the delivery of benefits to injured stand in place of a compulsory third party parties. The need for reform in the compulsory insurer. third party scheme was highlighted by the However, the proposed amendment does delay in settlement of claims; four and a half not broaden the cover to the degree that an years was the average time from date of injury uninsured motor vehicle involved in an to settlement. accident on private property can come within Rehabilitation provision, regrettably, was the scope of the Nominal Defendant scheme. not a feature of the previous scheme. Section 5 of the legislation is subject to However, under the Motor Accident Insurance further amendment by inclusion in sub-section Act it becomes the focus of personal injury (1) (b) the words "in respect of the motor management. This must be of particular vehicle". The purpose of this amendment is in benefit to those severely injured and of course no way to alter the application of the Act but to there is the long-term reduction in financial make the intent clearer and reinforce the and social cost to the community. Although we policy of insurance wording that cover is limited are only nine months into the new scheme, I to the motor vehicle. am informed that very favourable comment I would like to refer to the various has been received from injured parties, the amendments relevant to the change in name legal profession representing both injured of the hospital and ambulance levy to the persons and insurers, the medical profession hospital and emergency services levy. The and allied health providers as well as from concept proposed in this Bill is to alter the underwriting licensed insurers. component in respect of the ambulance levy The Goss Government is totally to generally cover emergency services. By committed to the continual review of this broadly referring to emergency services it important social justice legislation to ensure allows the Treasurer greater flexibility in the that it meets the community's needs. The allocation of the levy funds to the various Government believes that it is appropriate now public emergency services, reflecting their to introduce the Motor Accident Insurance involvement with motor vehicle accidents. Legislation Amendment Bill. The primary aim Another area for comment is the of the Bill is to ensure appropriate coverage by extension of the offence of driving an the Nominal Defendant. Also, the opportunity uninsured motor vehicle on a road. The Bill is taken to introduce amendments that will takes into account the public place situation address any ambiguity or omissions in the now covered by the Nominal Defendant and original legislation. also brings in the added offence of permitting the driving of an uninsured motor vehicle. The I would like to elaborate firstly on the owners and drivers of unregistered/uninsured Nominal Defendant situation. The legislation, motor vehicles need to take heed that the as it currently stands, involves the Nominal Government is committed to detecting these Defendant in cases where the accident, vehicles on our roads. In recent months the involving an uninsured motor vehicle, occurs Department of Transport has upgraded its on a road. By definition, the term "road" is detection activity, resulting in an increase in given broader application but there is some prosecutions, both for being unregistered and conjecture that the definition may exclude uninsured. With better technology now from Nominal Defendant cover places like available to officers of the Department, this beaches where people frequently use motor activity will be continuing and no doubt will vehicles. The Motor Accident Insurance become more effective. Legislation Amendment Bill addresses this As an added warning to owners and issue by including a "public place" in the scope drivers of unregistered/uninsured motor of cover and as such affords persons injured, vehicles, they are playing Russian roulette with as the result of the negligence of an uninsured their finances, because if a person is injured motor vehicle driver, much wider protection. It and a claim is paid by the Nominal Defendant, certainly extends the cover to our beaches. the negligent driver and/or owner will be 8 June 1995 12246 Legislative Assembly required to repay the amount paid under the Debate, on motion of Mrs Sheldon, claim. Many of these claims amount to several adjourned. hundred thousand dollars. The final aspect of the amendment Bill to SUPERANNUATION LEGISLATION mention is the proposed amendment to the AMENDMENT BILL Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995. As I have already Second Reading stated, there is a very clear obligation for Debate resumed from 22 March (see motor vehicles to have compulsory third party p. 11228). insurance. Officers of the Department of Mrs SHELDON (Caloundra—Leader of Transport are entitled to carry out necessary the Liberal Party) (11.37 a.m.): The purpose of inquiries and to bring prosecutions in respect this Bill is to bring legislation on of compulsory third party insurance but again superannuation schemes for Queensland by the adoption of the proposed amendment Government employees and members of it makes the intent and authority quite explicit. Parliament into line with new Federal There was extensive consultation prior to legislation. The Bill is necessary and covers a the introduction of the Motor Accident transfer of Queensland Government Insurance Act and there has been ongoing superannuation schemes to the Queensland dialogue with the various stakeholders Investment Corporation, QIC, for subsequent to the commencement of the management. Legislation affected by this Bill scheme. At this point, I must particularly includes the Public Service Superannuation acknowledge the efforts of the Royal Act 1958, the State Service Superannuation Automobile Club of Queensland, the Act 1972, the Police Superannuation Act, the Insurance Council of Australia, the Bar Superannuation (Government and other Association of Queensland, the Queensland Employees) Act and the Acts relating to the Law Society's Accident Compensation Governor and judges. The Bill also removes Committee and other legal groups such as the references in legislation establishing the State Australian Plaintiff Lawyers' Association who service, police and parliamentary schemes for have assisted the Motor Accident Insurance compliance with the soon to be superseded Commission in identifying any possible Commonwealth legislation. problems in the operation of the legislation The takeover of the management of the and the scheme generally. superannuation funds covered by this Bill by the QIC is a welcome move and should Finally, Queensland is now one of the few benefit members. The Bill also introduced a jurisdictions that affords motor vehicle accident retrospective top-up provision for the judges' victims unfettered access to common law and and Governor's pension legislation to ensure at a reasonable cost to the motor vehicle that employer-provided benefits are sufficient owner. I believe we have the best compulsory to meet the level of employer support required third party common law system in Australia. by the Commonwealth Government's The Goss Labor Government is superannuation guarantee charge legislation. committed to keeping our compulsory third The administrative amendments include the party scheme fully funded, with benefits at a treatment of unclaimed superannuation level that meet community expectations. In moneys currently under the Federal legislation. this regard, the Motor Accident Insurance The Coalition does not oppose this Bill, Commission will continue to examine avenues which also accommodates administrative for improvement. amendments. I received a letter by fax from We as a Government are cognisant of the the Treasurer yesterday regarding unfortunate incidents that occur in which amendments to this Bill. I have not had time for any briefing on it, and I note we have had injured people do not have recourse to amendments circulated. I ask the Treasurer to common law, but at the same time we are guarantee that the amendments so circulated equally conscious of the cost of providing are covered by the matters raised in his letter compensation schemes. In the future we could very well be looking at some form of to me. compensation opportunity to seriously injured Mr BARTON (Waterford) (11.40 a.m.): I drivers or other parties who due to the rise to support this Bill. Superannuation has circumstances of the motor vehicle accident been one of the great reforms of the last are unable to bring a common law action. decade in terms of looking after the interests of working women and men. Until I commend the Bill to the House. approximately 10 years ago, superannuation Legislative Assembly 12247 8 June 1995 was the preserve of the few, and most people superannuation schemes for its public in the work force relied totally on the old age servants. pension for sustenance in their retirement and The old State Service Superannuation to ensure that they could pay their bills. Fund was one of the better schemes in this Superannuation was something for well-paid country. It was certainly fully funded. It was not workers and people in the mainstream public being paid for on the never-never scheme, service. and I acknowledge the fact that that is what I am very proud to say that reforms in this Government inherited when it came to superannuation were led by the trade union power in 1989. But what that fund was not movement in this country. Gary Weaven is still capable of providing was superannuation to very active in the superannuation industry. Crown employees, to railway employees and After he left the ACTU as the assistant to the lower paid people who were employed secretary, he was involved in organising joint by the State Government of Queensland. investments for superannuation funds to Historically, the people who now reside on the ensure that working women and men get the Opposition benches had ensured that best out of their investments. When the mainstream public servants were well provided superannuation campaign started it was put for but again only in the context that they together by Gary Weaven, an industrial officer stayed in the public service for their entire of the ACTU and a person who had the vision working lives. There were very poor vesting to know what needed to be done for workers. arrangements. Prior to the running of a The building industry unions—and I am sorry campaign by all of the State public sector that the member for Bulimba is not unions in the mid to late 1980s, the provisions here—were the first to really kick that of the scheme were such that the campaign off for what became the first round opportunities for public servants to leave of 3 per cent superannuation movements, and before they reached retirement age, or an that is now building to 5 per cent and 6 per early retirement age, were very restricted. cent. Statements presented by the Federal Government this year reveal a level of I make this comment because those compulsion that will be brought in over a funds very much reflected the nature of period to make people contribute to their own superannuation in this country. superannuation benefits for the future. But Superannuation was there for the very well that 3 per cent reform—and I know, Mr Deputy paid people in the private sector, and it was Speaker, that you will indulge me, because there for the mainstream public servants—and this is a Bill about bringing the State I am not being critical of public servants, I think Government's funds into line with the national they deserved every cent of superannuation standards—has been evolving over that entire that they got. When I was a union official the 10-year period to make sure that people are people that I looked after in the blue collar not ripped off by those who manage their area, the Crown employment area and in the superannuation. railways had very, very poor—if any— superannuation. In fact, they did not have It is very important that the funds in this superannuation. The railway people had a State are consistent with the national retirement allowance that built up over a standards. Certainly the Treasurer, in his period. Even that did not provide them with a second-reading speech, acknowledged that very good package on their retirement—— there are to be yet further changes to the national standards, but this Bill will Mr Bennett: When I joined the accommodate them. It will allow the great electricity industry you used to have to stay 12 superannuation funds in Queensland to meet months to get approval before they even let that evolving and changing national standard. you enter the scheme. Those standards have come about Mr BARTON: That is correct. I certainly because of the campaign that I mentioned. accept that interjection from the member for Over a period there have been continuing Gladstone. There were restrictions on people negotiations in the Accord process between joining the funds. When those people reached the ACTU at a national level and the Federal that qualifying period, as I recall, they had a Government for continuing improvements to one-off option to join. If they did not exercise superannuation—continuing standards to that option, they were locked out of the fund make sure that people's needs are forever; they could not get back in. That raises accommodated. It is a pity that there is no-one another aspect that I would like to comment sitting on the other side to bait me today, but I on. Many people in their younger years with acknowledge the fact that historically young families, mortgages, and high financial Queensland has always had very good commitments simply could not afford to 8 June 1995 12248 Legislative Assembly contribute to the funds. In many cases they I know that in recent years Gosuper has had to say "no" to that one-off option. They been a declining fund because the funds of did not join the fund and were effectively those people were rolled into Q Super when it locked out of superannuation for the rest of came into place, but Gosuper was literally the their working lives. largest superannuation fund in Australia at There was very poor vesting. That also one point. It had in the order of 230,000 reflected the national position. I forget the raw members and it was a reform that gave figures—and I am sorry I did not bring them superannuation for the first time to Crown with me today—but in the order of 78 or 80 employees and railway employees in this per cent of the highly paid people in this State. Up until then only public servants had country had superannuation. But less than 10 that benefit. per cent of low paid wage earners did not I will return to the point about the have access to any form of superannuation at superannuation funds being fully funded. They all—not only did they not have access to were fully funded under the National Party superannuation that was not good, that could Government before this Government came to give them a decent retirement, they had office, but what this Government has been access to no superannuation at all. Something able to do in the last five and a half to six in the order of only 10 per cent of those years is continue to improve the people had any superannuation. superannuation benefits for all of its When I got to my feet I deliberately employees—for mainstream public servants, mentioned women before I mentioned working for Crown employees, for railway employees, men, because women were even more and for people who work for statutory disadvantaged. In the order of only about two authorities that are under the control ultimately to three per cent of working women had of the Government. That highlights what is access to superannuation. Again, in the public occurring in every other State. sector in Queensland it was basically accepted I know that sometimes the Opposition that working women would work for a period say, "All you have done is inherited a great and then leave the work force. If they came scheme off us." That is really not true. We back they were very seriously disadvantaged inherited schemes in very good shape but because the superannuation standards in the have continued to improve those schemes at early funds reflected the era in which they a time when in other States Liberal were set up, when it was understood in our Governments are slashing superannuation society that when women married they left the benefits to their employees. work force and did not return. As a result of Mrs Sheldon interjected. the campaigns of the union movement and then the further reforms that were enacted by Mr BARTON: I hear the shadow this Government when Q Super was Treasurer heckling, but she knows that Mr negotiated and put into place, the Kennett in Victoria and Mr Brown in South superannuation reforms in this State Australia have slashed superannuation addressed all of those issues. They are the benefits. That has occurred at a time when the sorts of issues that are encompassed by the Government of this State is continuing to national standards. This Bill will ensure that the improve the superannuation benefits for State superannuation funds are able to employees of the State Government, the comply with future national standards. State railway system and statutory bodies. I will take honourable members on a This Government is certainly bringing home nostalgia trip. Back in the mid-1980s, as a the bacon to its employees through result of Accord Mark IV, I think it was, the 3 superannuation and it is doing that in a way per cent superannuation came in. There was a that is to their benefit. I know that they pretty heavy set of negotiations with the understand and accept that we are doing a previous Government and the then Under great job on their behalf, compared with what Treasurer Leo Hielscher to ensure that State is happening interstate where, if a person is Government employees were able to pick up lucky enough to have a job because public that 3 per cent. It was partially submerged into servants are being sacked in great numbers, the State Service Superannuation Fund for that person knows that, at the end of the day, those who had State super, but for the first his or her superannuation benefits are going time it gave a great many Crown employees to be less than what they were when those and railway employees some States were under Labor administrations. In superannuation—the 3 per cent this State, we have improved the benefits. superannuation, which went into the Gosuper There is very good vesting in those fund when it came into place. schemes. Back in the era when people had to Legislative Assembly 12249 8 June 1995 stay to the end of the day, to retirement age, not be coming to Queensland and they would to receive their benefit, the schemes did not not be seeing our great potential and the acknowledge the changes that are occurring in opportunities that exist here. When the our society. People are much more mobile; National Party was in Government in this they do not necessarily enter the public service State—I know the fund was not over $10 or Government employment with a view to billion at that point; I think it reached being there until retirement. The approximately $3.5 billion—all the money was superannuation funds now give people in fixed-interest investments. They were very flexibility. People can come back into the poor investments and all the eggs were in one funds and pick up where they left off. They basket. I know that it started the move to a have a number of flexible options. balanced fund by forming the Queensland I spoke earlier about low-paid employees Treasury Corporation Investments Advisory who used be given a once-only option to join Board, but it was achieved during the period of up or not join up. At that time, many made an Labor Government. economic decision, saying, "I simply cannot Mrs Sheldon interjected. afford to pay out of my pay packet that Mr BARTON: I hear some prattling from increased amount of money, because all of someone who simply would not know what the dollars that I get every week are occurred, and I think that she should do some accounted for." The Q Super fund gives research. When the Queensland Treasury people the option of three different levels at Corporation Investments Advisory Board was which they can buy into the scheme. It allows corporatised to be the first Government owned low-paid people to enter the fund and pay at a corporation, that is, the Queensland lower level. Once their mortgage is off their Investment Corporation, it turned what was a hands, or their children grow up and their large, fixed-interest investment into a balanced expenses are lower, they can increase their fund with investments in property, equities and payment into the fund to a much higher level with offshore investments in the proper and gain the same benefit that they would proportion, to ensure that all the eggs were have received had they been contributing at not in one basket. I believe that it deserves the moderate level all along. So those options great congratulations on the job that it has make the scheme user friendly to the done since it was formed. It has been employees of the State Government. That consistently right up in the top quartile, which reform was brought in through negotiations is the economic term. In other words, it has between this Government, the trade union been in the top quarter of funds managers in movement and the public sector unions in this this country. It has consistently held that State. position through prudent investments and I note that the Bill confirms the through the professionalism of the team led by Queensland Investment Corporation as the Jim Kennedy as the chairman and now with funds manager for the Government Henry Smerdon as the chief executive officer. investment. I will talk a little about the The great work was done initially during the Queensland Investment Corporation because, period that Ian Macoun was the chief although many people hear that term, I do not executive leading that team. think that many people understand it. With Suncorp, the Queensland Mr D'Arcy interjected. Investment Corporation is the core of a great Mr BARTON: Some people have had financial base in Queensland. They are two of very distinguished careers there. the largest funds managers in this country. Mr Beattie: Who went on to bigger and The move in this year's Budget to bring to better things. Queensland a lot of the services and staff of the Australian Stock Exchange will strengthen Mr BARTON: Who went on to bigger the move to ensure that Queensland and better things. The Queensland becomes a much more important financial Investment Corporation has a balanced fund powerhouse in this country. I am very of over $10 billion. It is the fourth largest funds confident that Queensland will rapidly overtake manager in this country. It is one of the top Melbourne's position. People think that 100 in the world. It resides in Brisbane, which Melbourne is the major financial centre in brings a range of people, from the European Australia. banks to the funds managers of the United States, to Brisbane to talk about their Mr Beattie: Shrinking. investments, joint activity or to consider a joint Mr BARTON: It certainly is a shrinking activity. If the Queensland Investment financial centre. I will speak briefly about the Corporation did not exist, those people would importance of this Bill to the trustees of the 8 June 1995 12250 Legislative Assembly

State Government schemes, Q Super, superannuation. I think that that is a healthy Gosuper and the others that are mentioned, move. which share common trustees. This Bill assists Clause 10 of the legislation omits section the trustees with their very onerous 2 in recognition of a new Commonwealth responsibilities, because the trustees are the superannuation supervisory regime. The people who are ultimately responsible for the requirement in the Act to comply with the money that is owned by the members of the superseded Commonwealth legislation will be fund. The trustees have responsibilities under replaced with the State agreeing under an law to those members. If there were to be intergovernmental agreement to meet inconsistencies among our State law as it Commonwealth retirement income policies. applied to the trustees, the national standards and national trust law, those trustees would be Clause 12 replaces the existing section 12 put in an extremely invidious position. When a and provides for the appointment of the person is a trustee of a superannuation fund Queensland Investment Corporation as the of billions of dollars, that person needs to investment manager. I mentioned that before. understand precisely what his or her The QIC is to invest the funds in accordance responsibilities are to the members who own with the investment policies and objectives of the money. This Bill, by ensuring that the the trustees and to report to the trustees on State law complies totally with the national the QIC's performance. superannuation standards and the national Clause 13, which amends section 19, superannuation standards as they are corrects a drafting error to ensure that a amended over the period, will certainly put the minimum pension of 50 per cent of a trustees' minds at rest a little. They need to backbencher's salary is payable where a know that, if they are prepared to take on the member retires on the grounds of ill health. I job of acting as the trustees and ensuring that might say that that is something we all members' superannuation funds are looked assumed to be the case. I will refer to that a after, they will be protected. little later. However, let me make it clear that I This Bill is very good legislation. It ensures am not suffering from any ill health. that the big improvements that have been An honourable member interjected. gained for working women and working men Mr BEATTIE: As the interjector said, are protected and advanced over the next some people would like me to suffer from ill decades, because a great deal has been health. However, they will have to be patient. achieved. Clause 15 of the legislation replaces Mr BEATTIE (Brisbane Central) section 34 to introduce consistent procedures (11.59 a.m.): I acknowledge that significant across the major superannuation schemes for contribution from the honourable member for dealing with unclaimed benefits. The trustees Waterford. will manage unclaimed benefits, taking into A Government member interjected. account the rights of beneficiaries to certain minimum amounts such as interest. Mr BEATTIE: Indeed, it was very learned. I rise to support the Superannuation The whole issue of superannuation is one Legislation Amendment Bill 1995. The of considerable debate within the Australian objectives of the Bill are to amend the community, particularly since the recent legislation governing the major public sector Federal Government decision to make superannuation schemes primarily in provision for employee contributions as part of accordance with developments in the guarantee levy. I think that move is very Commonwealth prudential superannuation, to healthy in the long-term interests of this ensure the judges' and Governor's pension country. I will deal with that later. Before doing schemes pay minimum benefits in all so, I want to refer to those provisions that deal circumstances and to appoint the Queensland with members of Parliament. From time to Investment Corporation as the internal funds time, members of Parliament—who are fair game in the media and elsewhere—are manager of the major superannuation criticised for their pay and conditions. Indeed, schemes. recently the Courier-Mail three times ran a In addition, the legislation achieves a story relating to the pay rise that members number of other things, to which I will return received. I wish we were paid that pay rise shortly. I am particularly interested to see that three times. Fair go! The community is entitled the legislation refers to the specialist to be aware of the pay and conditions of complaints body for the conciliation and members. As we all know, our conditions are arbitration of disputes concerning linked to the pay and conditions of Federal Legislative Assembly 12251 8 June 1995 members. However, I thought that it was a bit motion in 1899 seeking to empower the rich for the Courier-Mail to run a story about Government to pay pensions to the old-age members' pay rises on three occasions. poor, but it was confronted with the argument Mr Welford: It would be nice if they ran that it would cause hardship to decide if a their own three times. person was needy or not. So the motion failed to gain the support of the majority of the Mr BEATTIE: Indeed. Let me deal with members. the issue of members of Parliament. Recently, I was undertaking some research into State I am happy to say that we have come a Parliament in the 1890s. I discovered that in long way since the Parliaments of 100 years July 1889, for the first time, elected members ago. It is appropriate that not only members of of the Queensland Legislative Assembly were Parliament but also public servants, police, granted a salary of 300 pounds a year. That judges and those other people who are decision was to be a landmark in covered in this legislation be treated parliamentary representation in Queensland. appropriately so that in their old age they are In addition to the salary, a travelling allowance entitled to the dignity of a reasonable income. was paid. As members would appreciate, the Australia's population is ageing, and that payment of members was an important is why superannuation is so important to all of prerequisite before Labor men could enter us. In fact, recently I read an article titled Parliament in the 1890s because, up until that Attitudes to superannuation in Australia: the time, they could not afford to enter Parliament. need for consumer education by Nigel However, that extra payment of members was Patterson, who works for the Social Policy not fully supported by the already entrenched Division of the Commonwealth Department of parliamentary interests. The pastoralists, who Social Security. By way of background, he ran the Parliaments in the 1890s—— stated— Mr FitzGerald interjected. "As with other OECD countries, Mr BEATTIE: That is right. Within three Australia will experience a significant years, the annual salary was halved to 150 ageing of its population in the early part of pounds, and it remained at that level until the 21st century. The reasons for this 1896. ageing of the population include a lower birthrate and increased life expectancy. A Mr Laming: The Depression. consequence of the ageing of the Mr BEATTIE: Depression my foot! That population will be the retirement of the is not true. The actual debate in Hansard was 'baby boomer' generation born in the about reducing the pay to discourage people years following the second world war. entering Parliament. It was to keep the The proportion of the population workers out. That is exactly what the debate aged 60 and over is expected to increase was about. The member should not from 15 per cent to 26 per cent between misrepresent what the debate was about. I 1991 and 2031." have read the Hansard record. However, the change to the salary and political allegiance of That is extraordinary! Between 1991 and the members was indicative of the mood of 2031, the proportion of the population aged 60 and over is going to increase from 15 per social change that was about to unfold. cent to 26 per cent. That is an increase of 11 Because we are dealing with the issue of per cent—a significant increase. The article superannuation, I researched some of the states further— other Bills that were passed in the 1890s. It "The major increase is likely to occur was interesting to note that in 1899 there was following 2011. Over the same period the an amendment to the Succession Act, which proportion of the population aged 65 gave relief to widows whose husbands died years and over is expected to increase without leaving a will. If the value of the from 12 per cent to 20 per cent. property was less than 500 pounds, the surviving widow had absolute and exclusive Obviously, the ageing of the population has entitlement. If it did not, she did not have that significant implications for the development of entitlement. In 1897, a Bill was introduced to social policy by Commonwealth and State upgrade the amount payable on claims for Parliaments, which is why legislation such as workers' compensation. However, by we are debating today is so important. increasing the payout on accidental death As part of that paper, a table was equal to that of three years' salary, the Bill was annexed titled "Attitudes to and Awareness of regarded as too benevolent and it was not Facets of Retirement Incomes". It reported proceeded with. There was a private members' some surveys that had been carried out about 8 June 1995 12252 Legislative Assembly community attitudes towards superannuation results of that survey. Discussion of the results and pensions. It is interesting to note some of is healthy to community debate about the survey statistics because, again, they superannuation and the move by the Federal show the need for appropriate amendments Government towards compulsory employee such as those contained in this legislation and, contributions. indeed, the Commonwealth Government's Another proposition asked about in the employee contribution to the superannuation survey was— guarantee levy, which is being phased in until 1997 and beyond. Without that, this country "Greater superannuation coverage will face difficult social and economic will lead to abolition of the age pension." problems. The four alternative responses to that The details of the survey are contained on statement were true, partly true, false or not page 31 of the article titled Attitudes to sure. In response to that question, 52 per cent superannuation in Australia: the need for responded that the statement was true. So 52 consumer eduction. A question asked for a per cent, or a majority of the population, comment on the proposition— accept that that is the direction in which we are "It's the Government's responsibility heading. I am not saying that that will happen. to provide for us in our old age." Mr Bredhauer: That is the perception. People were asked to either agree or Mr BEATTIE: That is right; that is the disagree. People who had no opinion were perception. Some 14 per cent responded that registered as well. In answer to that question, the statement was partly true. So 66 per cent 32 per cent said, "That is right; we agree"; 56 said that the statement was true or partly true. per cent said, "We disagree", and 13 per cent Only 15 per cent said that it was false and 19 had no opinion. That is an interesting statistic per cent were not sure. That response because that says that over 50 per cent of indicates a very healthy attitude. People Australians accept that they have a understand that, with the ageing population, responsibility to provide for their own the tax base is becoming narrower. Provision retirement or make a contribution towards their for retirement has to be made during people's retirement and their old age. Since the working lives so that they can have a good honourable member for Caloundra and I will quality of life in retirement. That is why no doubt benefit from these things in years to superannuation contributions and the move by come, it is important that the majority of the Federal Government towards compulsory Australians support us in this view. I know that superannuation are so important. she agrees with me. Let us deal a little further with the issue of The majority of the answers given by the the ageing population and associated respondents to that survey question indicates problems in relation to superannuation. The that we have made a significant degree of economic circumstances of any individual, progress in educating Australians about the irrespective of age, are influenced by income, need for superannuation. The next proposition expenditure and asset levels. We all know that was asked about in the survey was— that. Older people, as with people of all ages, "You pay taxes all your life so you exhibit considerable diversity in their economic should receive the pension without having circumstances. However, older people to pay for superannuation." generally have lower levels of income and Again, the alternatives were, "I agree", "I expenditure and higher asset levels than younger people. Higher asset levels basically disagree", or people had no opinion. In result from a lifetime of work, and lower levels answer to that question, 44 per cent of the of income and expenditure generally reflect people asked said, "I agree with that. I have the retired status of older individuals. paid taxes all my life. Therefore, I should get a pension." Forty-five per cent said, "No, I Men are now retiring from full-time work at disagree", and 11 per cent had no opinion. younger ages than ever before. In 1968, 80 Although it was not the majority of the people per cent of men aged 60 to 64 were still questioned who disagreed with that working. However, by 1987, that figure had statement, 45 per cent—a significant fallen to 45 per cent. Women generally leave percentage of the Australian population—said the work force at younger ages than men. In that just because they have paid taxes all their 1992, 22 per cent of men and 6 per cent of life they were not automatically entitled to women aged 60 and over were still receive a pension. In other words, they should participating in the work force. Of those make some contribution themselves towards working, 74 per cent of men and 6 per cent of superannuation. I am simply repeating the women were still in full-time work. Because Legislative Assembly 12253 8 June 1995 most older people are in retirement, they tend Obviously, the terms of reference cover to have lower income levels than younger women, whose superannuation coverage is people. That is why superannuation is so improving, but more so those women who important. People must make provision for work. their retirement during their working lives. That On 21 March 1995, an article by Michelle is why the union movement has over the years Gilchrist appeared in the Australian titled been such a strong advocate of making "Super problems for unconventional work". In provision for superannuation, and particularly that article, she set out some of the problem portability of superannuation, a subject with areas. The Australian Taxation Office's which the honourable member for Waterford submission to the Senate inquiry said that dealt very articulately earlier. Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed In the 1991 census, 71 per cent of people that superannuation coverage for women had aged 65 years and over stated that their risen from 47 per cent of full-time employees income was less than $12,001 per annum. in 1988 to 87 per cent in 1993, while coverage This compares with 50 per cent of people for women working part time increased from aged 55 to 64 years, 32 per cent of people 19 per cent to 65 per cent over the same aged 45 to 54 years, 28 per cent of people period. But no figures were provided for aged 35 to 44 years, and 29 per cent of women not in employment. people aged 25 to 34 years. Only 3.5 per cent While the inquiry's terms of reference of people over 65 years of age stated that specify women, the committee is finding that their income exceeded $30,000. That is a very many men now fall easily into the category of small percentage. an unconventional working life. Just one Mr Bredhauer: Modest. hearing in Melbourne by the Senate committee was enough to show that problems Mr BEATTIE: That is very modest. have emerged common to anyone Older people are a diverse group who unemployed or working on a casual, part-time derive their income from a variety of sources. or contract basis. The working patterns that That is stating the obvious. At retirement, 44 have hampered women's ability to save for per cent of retirees of all ages stated that their retirement are becoming more common main source of income was a pension or among men, including long-term breaks from benefit of some kind. Some 16 per cent relied paid work to care for children or other family primarily on someone else's income. Some 12 members. per cent relied primarily on retirement schemes The inquiry heard that superannuation such as superannuation—only 12 per cent. held little attraction for these groups. Only Some 11 per cent relied on returns from workers in paid employment are granted tax investments, interest, stocks and debentures, concessions for superannuation, although and 7.2 per cent relied on savings and on the some concessions are available to those not sale of assets. working but who have an ability to save. Whether superannuation will provide an Anyone leaving the work force can contribute adequate retirement income depends on the to superannuation for up to two years length of time over which the contributions are regardless of whether he or she returns to made, the level of contributions and whether work. From 1 July last year, a further the contributor is a part of a compulsory concession was introduced for those leaving scheme, which is the Commonwealth work to raise children, but apparently not for Government's suggested position for the long other family reasons such as caring for sick or term. Anybody who thinks seriously about the elderly relatives. sorts of statistics that I have cited today will People raising children can contribute to realise that superannuation is the way for superannuation for up to seven years, with people to provide adequately for their one significant proviso, that being that they retirement. retain the right to return to their original job. There are a lot of difficulties in this area. The Senate inquiry was told that, although the Honourable members would all be aware that new rule was helpful, its application was last September a Senate committee was limited. Encouraging saving for retirement is established to examine superannuation. The the main focus of the inquiry, but it is also terms of reference set for the inquiry investigating the situation of those women for addressed whether current superannuation whom superannuation has come too late. The policies meet the needs of anyone whose Federal Government is gradually raising the working-life pattern falls outside the traditional pension eligibility age for women from 60 to 30 to 40 years of full-time employment. 65. 8 June 1995 12254 Legislative Assembly

I fully support this Bill. I hope that the Mr Bredhauer: A socialist plot. debate on superannuation over the next two Mr D'ARCY: The National Party believed years will be more constructive than some that superannuation was a socialist plot. In contributions I have heard recently. Only two reality, superannuation is about good financial days ago, I heard a person purporting to management. If superannuation schemes are represent an employer talking about doom properly controlled, life will be better for future and gloom with respect to the Federal generations of Australians. Reference has Government's initiatives. These initiatives are been made to the diminishing financial base. the only way in which to protect the quality of Through superannuation, we are attempting to life of seniors. widen the available financial base and prevent I hope that we do not go down the path some members of our ageing population from which America took recently. The Republican- becoming beggars. The Labor Party can take dominated Congress recently wiped out as pride in the fact that it has started this country many as 45 social programs begun in the down that path by enacting appropriate days of Franklin D. Roosevelt. We can do legislation. without those sorts of fundamental, hardline, Right Wing policies in this country. In Australia, This Labor Government is noted for its we are about quality of life, fairness and positive achievements in economic reform. I making certain that at the end of the day referred previously to the Bjelke-Petersen people are not on skid row. In the 1980s, regime. I want to remind the House of some of when I visited Washington, I remember seeing the horrendous actions of that regime when beggars in the streets. The capital of the superannuation schemes were first wealthiest country in the world has beggars on established and started to become the way of its streets! Being naive at that time, I was life that they are today. The QIC has been appalled by what I saw. We can do without spoken about at some length. It is an those sorts of things in Australia and one of excellent manager of State Government the ways to make certain of that is to have superannuation schemes, and it is gratifying to adequate superannuation provision. I note the size of the portfolio that it currently congratulate the Treasurer on this legislation. manages. In the early days, superannuation schemes were often managed by small Mr D'ARCY (Woodridge) (12.19 p.m.): I entities, many of which went broke or did not rise to support the Superannuation Legislation pay interest. Amendment Bill. Provision for superannuation is one of the positive features of having Labor Over time, the Government established its Governments in power, particularly in own superannuation schemes. I want to refer Queensland, because we have always to one of those schemes in particular in supported superannuation. On many relation to which an anomaly still exists. When occasions in this House, I have heard the National Party was in Government, it members opposite slate superannuation and treated women—particularly those in the public claim that it was not necessary. The two service—very unfairly. When women got excellent speakers from the Government side, married, they had to resign from their who canvassed the provisions of this superannuation schemes. Some women legislation very thoroughly, outlined the teachers had to resign when they became reasons for Australia's move to establish pregnant. Because of the superannuation superannuation provisions for all employees. policies of the National Party Government, to Admittedly, the train is driven by the this day some women teachers are severely Commonwealth Government, but there are disadvantaged. That is a black mark against many reasons for legislation such as this to be that administration and can be attributed to enacted by the State Government. The Joh Bjelke-Petersen's lack of belief in and anomalies which exist and which will continue failure to embrace superannuation schemes. to exist must be addressed until we have the The former Premier stuck to his principles, in best possible superannuation model. Mr that he never joined the parliamentary Beattie and Mr Barton outlined some of the superannuation scheme, although I believe trends in that sector. that—— I witnessed the long-serving National Mr Bredhauer interjected. Party Premier rail against superannuation and Mr D'ARCY: He did regret that decision, state that he believed that it was not and I believe that in his latter years as Premier necessary. It was a National Party plank to he made some moves to rectify that position. oppose superannuation, and for many years it thwarted the establishment of superannuation Mr Bredhauer: Senator Flo was a funds. contributor to the Senate scheme. Legislative Assembly 12255 8 June 1995

Mr D'ARCY: I believe that that certainly payout when people retire. That is true in the made a difference to the former Premier's case of some older people who still might lifestyle! have a mortgage on their homes or another Times have changed, and we should be type of mortgage that must be paid out. Given endeavouring to correct some of the our ageing population and increasing anomalies that still exist. As I said, the longevity, in the future superannuation will Commonwealth is largely driving the train. largely take the place of the old-age pension. Changes are regularly occurring to the That measure is necessary to maintain the management and administration of standard of living of all Australians. In this superannuation schemes in this State, and country, wages do vary. Although people in those changes must be reflected in State some other countries may receive higher legislation. In Queensland, the QIC is the wages, the standard of living in this country is mandatory manager of most Government one of the highest in the world. We have superannuation schemes. We have an achieved that position because of the way in excellent manager in the QIC. Its record is which Governments have been able to control second to none. The member for Waterford the financial base of this country. referred to the record of that body. He was a Superannuation funds have played and will director of that organisation at one stage, so continue to play a major role in that. I support he is well aware of its credentials and the the Bill. manner in which it has diversified its interests. Mr BREDHAUER (Cook) (12.28 p.m.): I I want to refer briefly to some of the will speak only briefly on this Bill, because the smaller superannuation schemes. The members who spoke before me have covered Commonwealth is addressing some of the many of the issues. I want to follow up on the problems that exist in those schemes. I was comments by the member for Waterford about one of the supporters of the Australia card. I the push in the eighties by the trade unions, believe that it should have been introduced; it particularly the ACTU, for general would have alleviated the current problems superannuation provisions to cover all involving a large number of transient and Australian workers. I often hear employers casual employees who are members of complain about the fact that they are the ones various superannuation funds—some of them who have to pay superannuation on behalf of successful, some of them unsuccessful. their employees. There is an element of truth Today, many young people contribute only in that. However, it must be remembered that small amounts of money to superannuation the first general superannuation provision for schemes. I refer in particular to young employees was the result of a negotiated university students who have part-time jobs. agreement between the Commonwealth They may contribute to four or five different Government and the Australian Council of schemes. My daughter contributes to the Trade Unions to trade off a wage increase paper war. She receives reports from four or against superannuation benefits. Although the five different funds because she has worked in employers paid 3 per cent into superannuation casual jobs in various industries. The schemes on behalf of their employees, it was contributions made to various funds should be in lieu of a wage increase which they would streamlined. The Commonwealth recently have paid to their employees under a national decided that those smaller amounts will be wage decision in any case. transferred to a fund controlled by the I applaud the moves by the Australian Taxation Office, but those Commonwealth to increase the employee contributions are still largely wasted. The contributions to national superannuation. I Australia card would have enabled such believe that that is a wise move. However, it is contributions to be placed in a central fund. It not true to say that at this point in time is essential that those types of anomalies be employees do not contribute to their own addressed, otherwise when those people superannuation schemes at the national level, come to collect their entitlements they will be because they do. Since 1984 or 1985 when faced with the same predicament as women that national wage case decision came down, teachers and other public servants, whose they have in effect contributed towards that contributions were decimated by the policies of superannuation scheme. the National Party. I want to follow up on some of the One positive step by the Commonwealth comments that have been made by previous is the move away from lump-sum payouts. speakers about State schemes. I believe that The honourable member for Brisbane Central State public sector superannuation schemes referred to the mentality that superannuation have come a long way in recent years. Only is only insurance; that it provides a lump-sum 10 years ago, when I first worked for the 8 June 1995 12256 Legislative Assembly

Queensland Teachers Union, for about six State public sector employees appreciate the months I was the secretary of the Combined sorts of problems that have beset workers in Public Sector Unions Superannuation States such as Victoria, where the Committee, which consisted of representatives Government stuck its hands into of all the public sector unions that had superannuation funds. Due to the fully funded members contributing to the State Service nature of our schemes, we are unlikely to Superannuation Scheme as it was in those experience problems of that type. days. As the member for Woodridge pointed Superannuation is also important at a out, at that time there were many inequities, national level. There has been a lot of talk particularly regarding women, who often had about increasing national savings, and that is broken career patterns, and the an important issue. In my view, one of the superannuation scheme really was an abject best ways to ensure that people save a failure for those people. There are still people proportion of their income is through in the work force who suffer the results of superannuation. I think that, as the those inequities because they were not able to Commonwealth proceeds with its moves to preserve their benefits in the fund for when increase contributions to national they returned to service after child raising or superannuation schemes, the growth in whatever the reason was for their broken national savings over coming years will be career patterns. Women were not the only important in providing a pool of investment people affected by those inequities, but they funds for development of infrastructure and a were the dominant group. The superannuation range of other initiatives domestically. schemes have been substantially improved, but we should never forget that those people There has been criticism of some of the suffered those inequities and we should fund managers, particularly the managers of always strive to eliminate those inequalities trade union funds, and the way in which they wherever they exist in the schemes. invest the funds that are available to them. One needs to be careful before making that The member for Woodridge spoke about sort of criticism. I sympathise with those who people choosing to take lump sum argue that superannuation funds should be superannuation payments. I concur with him invested in productive areas of domestic that the move towards taxing lump sum infrastructure or whatever it happens to be. payments to encourage people to take a However, it should always be remembered pension rather than a lump sum is not only that the managers of those funds are charged desirable but also a necessary step. primarily with the responsibility of increasing Superannuation should not be seen as some the return or getting the best possible rate of type of Gold Lotto for people's latter years; it return for the members who are contributing to should be an attempt to provide income for that fund, and that is why they seek to invest people when they reach the end of their in a range of areas. That is why they may not working career. Many people who have taken do what we think is the logical or desirable lump sum superannuation payments in recent thing to do when investing domestically. Whilst years have actually regretted that because, as I have some sympathy with the argument, we interest rates have declined, the earnings on should be careful in suggesting that that their lump sums—which they put away as a bit should happen. of a nest egg for their retirement—have also declined to the point at which some people The member for Brisbane Central spoke are experiencing great difficulty in maintaining about the number of people who will be on a reasonable standard of living on a weekly pensions in time to come. No doubt with our basis. I think that, if those people were given ageing population and increasing longevity, the choice again, they would actually prefer to there will be increasing numbers of people of take an indexed superannuation pension pensionable age, so it is necessary that we rather than a lump sum, or perhaps part and encourage people who are in employment to part, as a number of people have. save for their retirement. However, in the future, we will need to look at the position of The member for Waterford referred to the independent retirees. An increasing proportion fact that our superannuation fund benefits are of the retired population will not be receiving fully funded. That is an important legacy and pensions, particularly Commonwealth one of the few good things that was left to us pensions. That means that we need to look by previous National Party and coalition carefully at the benefits currently made Governments. It is one of the reasons we were available to people on the basis of their able to claim in 1994 that we were net debt eligibility for pensions, such as health free and that we continue to be so, and that concessions and Seniors Card concessions. situation is likely to improve. It is important that We need to review the eligibility for those Legislative Assembly 12257 8 June 1995 concessions of independent retirees, because which they are supervised. I think it is fair to some independent retirees who are not say that there have been many changes receiving a pension are not wealthy by any emanating at a Commonwealth level means. Some retirees have had reasonably regarding the supervision of superannuation in well-paid jobs during their working lives, often recent years, and most people are a bit shell- in the public sector, which means that they shocked and find it very difficult to understand. receive a reasonable retirement income which To be fair to the Commonwealth, it is an area makes them ineligible for pensions, but they of tremendous importance. The are not particularly wealthy by any stretch of superannuation industry is probably the the imagination. We need to continue to fastest-growing industry in Australia; there are review the criteria for access to a range of many funds tied up in it and it is important that those concessions. everybody's superannuation investments, that In conclusion, the only thing that worries is, the contributions that they make and the me about superannuation is that it is a bit like contributions made on their behalf by tax law in Australia. It has been around for employers, be protected. some time now and we keep adding to it, Queensland is the only State in which amending it and making changes to people's defined benefits schemes are not under entitlements. It is an area that is becoming threat. Public servants in Queensland can be quite complex. I know that the Treasurer has thankful for the fact that this Government has had a longstanding interest in superannuation. managed the superannuation schemes so I remember one morning back in 1988 having well for many years, and we have the only a discussion with him in his Cairns office, when public sector fully funded superannuation he was a "shadow" of his present self, about schemes in Australia. I guarantee that defined changes to the State public sector benefit schemes, in other words Q Super, will superannuation scheme. At that time, I felt be available to all public sector employees in pretty switched on to the issues of Queensland. superannuation in Queensland, but a relatively The shadow Minister asked for an few short years later, I must admit that there assurance that the proposed amendments are are many areas which I find confusing and consistent with the explanation which I sent to complex, and I think that the average person her yesterday by way of letter. I give that who is contributing to a scheme probably assurance, except that there is one point not experiences the same difficulties that I do. The included in the letter, simply because it was a member for Woodridge talked about workers technicality. That point is referred to on page 2 contributing to a number of schemes and of the Explanatory Notes. The amendments fix those sorts of things. I think we must continue a date for the commencement of the to strive to make the superannuation schemes provisions relating to the appointment of the as simple and as understandable as we QIC as the investment management of possibly can. Maybe at some stage in the Q Super, State super, police Gosuper and future there will be a need for some sort of parliamentary superannuation funds. Under consolidation of the changes that have current legislation, the appointment of the QIC occurred into a more simple form. as investment manager of the Q Super Mr D'Arcy interjected. scheme expires on 14 June 1995. In order to Mr BREDHAUER: I understand the avoid this appointment lapsing and to provide acronym to which the member for Woodridge consistency between the schemes, the is referring. With those few comments, I amendment provides for the QIC to manage support the Bill before the House. the funds from that date. That is a technicality Superannuation is a most important area and and so not included in my letter to the shadow the attempts by the Queensland Government Minister. The amendments to change the to continue to update our schemes to make legislation which are before the House are sure that they are consistent with national fairly simple and straightforward, although legislation is an important initiative. largely technical. Hon. K. E. De LACY (Cairns— Mr FitzGerald: Simple and Treasurer) (12.39 p.m.), in reply: I thank straightforward, but technical? honourable members for their contributions to Mr De LACY: Perhaps that is a the debate. Government members spoke at contradiction in terms. They are technical and length about superannuation schemes non-controversial. They are supported by the generally. There are few things more important trustees to the schemes, which includes the to the Australian work force than trade union representatives. Basically they superannuation entitlements and the way in ensure that people's superannuation 8 June 1995 12258 Legislative Assembly entitlements are not affected by award '45A. After section 48— restructuring, and it is important that that be insert— the case. If superannuation entitlements are artificially changed upwards, that has an 'Division 8—Miscellaneous impact on the viability of the scheme and on 'Benefits payable to certain members all other contributors. Obviously, if they are '49.(1) Despite divisions 1 to 7, artificially changed downwards, people who benefits payable from the Fund for a have entitlements are adversely affected. contributor who is a relevant officer are— The amendments I am proposing relate (a) for employment before 12 to a new industrial award for teacher aides, November 1993—the benefits certain Education Department staff, and other calculated as at 12 November Crown employees who work 30 hours per 1993; and week. The new award varied the full-time hours for those employees, essentially making (b) for employment on and after 12 them permanent part-time. Their take-home November 1993—the benefits pay was not affected and, because of the payable under divisions 1 to 7. wording in the legislation, it would have '(2) The Actuary must calculate the impacted on their superannuation. The benefits under subsection (1)(a). amendments that I propose to move clarify that issue. I thank honourable members for '(3) However, the benefits under their support for the legislation. subsection (1)(a) must not be less than the benefits to which the member was Motion agreed to. entitled under the scheme on 11 November 1993. Committee '(4) In this section— Hon. K. E. De Lacy (Cairns—Treasurer) in "relevant officer" means a person who— charge of the Bill. (a) was employed by the State on Clause 1, as read, agreed to. 11 November 1993 under the Clause 2— Miscellaneous Workers Award—State Government at a Mr De LACY (12.42 p.m.): I move the rate of pay for not more than 30 following amendments— hours a week; and "At page 6, line 7, 'and (3)'— (b) continued to be employed by omit, insert— the State after 11 November 'to (6)'. 1993 under the Employees of Queensland Government At page 6, after line 12— Departments (Other than Public insert— Servants) Award.'.'." '(4) Section 45A is taken to have Amendment agreed to. commenced on 11 November 1993. New clause 45A, as read, agreed to. '(5) Section 63A is taken to have Clauses 46 to 63, as read, agreed to. commenced on 30 June 1994. '(6) Sections 9, 11, 12, 21, 24, 25, Insertion of new clause— 37, 42, 50, 52, 53, 60(1) and 62 Mr De LACY (12.44 p.m.): I move the commence, or are taken to have following amendment— commenced, on 14 June 1995.'." "At page 30, after line 31— Amendments agreed to. insert— Clause 2, as amended, agreed to. 'Insertion of new s 3.6 Clauses 3 to 45, as read, agreed to. '63A. After section 3.5— Insertion of new clause— insert— Mr De LACY (12.43 p.m.): I move the 'Benefits payable to certain members following amendment— '3.6.(1) Despite part 7 of the deed, "At page 23, after line 5— benefits payable under the scheme for a insert— member who is a relevant employee 'Insertion of new pt 4, div 8 are— Legislative Assembly 12259 8 June 1995

(a) for employment before 1 July about to experience some kind of major 1994—the benefits calculated boom. One would think that across Brisbane as at 1 July 1994; and dozens of unemployed brickies, builders and (b) for employment on and after 1 subbies would be practising with their mobile July 1994—the benefits payable phones and looking to retrain as screen under the deed. jockeys. '(2) The Actuary must calculate the "State Lures Asian Billions" was the benefits under subsection (1)(a). headline. In an otherwise bland prescription of more big spending and backdoor taxation, this '(3) However, the benefits under was the bauble intended to catch the eye of subsection (1)(a) must not be less than the media. As a result, we had days of the benefits to which the member was speculation about the interstate reaction. We entitled under the scheme on 30 June had plenty of Mexican bashing by the Premier, 1994. coupled with bleating complaints from New '(4) In this section— South Wales and Victoria. It was a fantastic "relevant employee" means a person sideshow that succeeded in diverting public who— attention from the important nuts and bolts of the Budget. While Queenslanders marvelled (a) was employed by the State on at this fantastic gimmick, other budgetary 11 November 1993 under the initiatives, such as the serious decline in the Miscellaneous Workers State surplus or even the loss of 60 national Award—State Government at a park rangers, were pushed to one side. rate of pay for not more than 30 hours a week; and Now, in the cold light of day, I wonder how many who rushed to the phones are (b) continued to be employed by beginning to wonder about the pup they were the State after 11 November sold by Treasurer De Lacy. Among the many 1993 under the Employees of claims made about this proposal was that it Queensland Government would create a flood of interest from the Departments (Other than Public financial community, with the northern Servants) Award.'.'." relocation of part of the Australian Stock Amendment agreed to. Exchange to be shadowed by stockbrokers New clause 63A, as read, agreed to. themselves. According to the Treasurer, something like half a dozen top broking firms Clauses 64 to 67, as read, agreed to. were going to pack their bags and head north Schedules 1 and 2, as read, agreed to. on the strength of his plan to cut rates. We Bill reported, with amendments. were going to have a big slice of the southern financial market and, according to the Treasurer, the impact was going to compare Third Reading with the decision by the Bjelke-Petersen Bill, on motion of Mr De Lacy, by leave, Government to abolish death duties. Try as read a third time. they might to ape the former Premier and the former coalition Government, Mr De Lacy and Mr Goss just do not know how to deliver when REVENUE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL it comes to initiatives of real economic worth. I Second Reading have said it before, but given the strong financial position built by the former National Debate resumed from 25 May (see and National/Liberal Governments, a drover's p. 11904). dog could have produced results with the Mrs SHELDON (Caloundra—Leader of Queensland economy that would have been the Liberal Party) (12.49 p.m.): In his sufficient to please Premier Goss. expansive one-page speech on the Revenue The impact of this change to stamp duty Laws Amendment Bill, the Treasurer finished on shares in Queensland evaporated in a with a glowing reference to his plan to halve matter of days, when every mainland State the rate of stamp duty on transfers of moved to match the new Queensland rate of marketable securities. Everyone in this House 0.3 per cent. The only person in Queensland will recall last month and the way in which who still believes otherwise is Treasurer De various news organisations leapt into print with Lacy. I do not know who had this idea in the headlines and breathless predictions about Mr first place. It may be that Mr De Lacy was De Lacy's proposal. To believe those reports taken in. Perhaps he spent too long smoking would be to think that Queenslanders were big cigars and listening to big talk at the big 8 June 1995 12260 Legislative Assembly end of town. Despite all his big talk, the facts Mrs SHELDON: No, I am indeed very are that at the end of the day the big pro-Queensland. I just do not like beneficiaries are not average Queenslanders Queenslanders being sold a pup—which he but stockbrokers and their clients, most of sold them. He duped them and thought that whom will remain in Sydney and Melbourne. he would get away with it and that An important distinction has been made Queensland on its own would do it. I very by the Treasurer in the preparation of this much doubt that was the case. What really initiative. No doubt influenced by his new happened is that we have not gained the friends at the ASX, Mr De Lacy has confined great benefit that we could have because the his cut rate of transfer duty to listed shares southern States predictably cut their stamp only. So for small-business people, those duty in half, which of course is what the Stock Queenslanders struggling to keep their heads Exchange was after, because they are the big above water—the sort of people honourable markets. We are a minnow in the field; they members in the Labor Party should be looking are the really big markets. I will accept any after or reckon they are and never do—by initiative that is pro-Queensland, but this running a panel shop, a corner store, a initiative was a beat-up by the Treasurer. plumbing supplies warehouse or a nursery, Anyone with any financial sense would know their shares in their own companies will that the southern markets would have to come continue to attract duty at the old rate. Shares into the field, and indeed they did. in these unlisted companies will be placed at a Mr De Lacy: I bet you barrack for the disadvantage. Thousands of Queenslanders, Blues. who deserved to expect that the small relief offered by this initiative would be extended to Mrs SHELDON: Unlike many of the them, have been disappointed. Treasurer's Labor mates, I am a born and bred Queenslander, and I always barrack for Given the historical strength of our the Maroons and the Reds. economy, Queensland should be a haven to small business. Under this change, people Mr De Lacy: You never do it in here. with money to invest are being encouraged Mrs SHELDON: I have never heard the not to support small business. Under the Treasurer doing it, by golly. I do not think he Treasurer's scheme, they will be lured into the likes footy—union or league. Not long after the stock market—to transfer their investment from Treasurer launched his Budget, he must have small business to big business. From the big realised the mistake he had made. As State business perspective, Mr De Lacy must seem after State matched the Queensland offer, incredibly generous with taxpayers' dollars. But and as his mates in the New South Wales from the perspective of the ASX, Mr De Lacy Labor Party retaliated with plans to have is clearly nothing more than a stalking-horse. Queensland's Commonwealth grants cut back, The Treasurer was lured into the scheme with the Treasurer was left with precious little to the selfish notion that he would steal away crow about. Instead of an innovative scheme from the southern States a big slice of their which would launch Queensland into the business. But because of their predictable financial spotlight, he was left with a smoking response, that significant shift will not come to ruin. The only spotlight trained on Queensland pass. However, the ASX will succeed in today is being directed by southern States gaining more investment than might otherwise which have it attached to their rifle sights. go into unlisted shares. The ASX will get its Thanks to Mr De Lacy, southerners are more way, but Queensland will still have to make do united than ever in their determination to strip with the leftovers of Stock Exchange activity Queensland of our small remaining advantage from the south. when it comes to the allocation of It will be interesting to look back next year Commonwealth Grants. to see how many of Mr De Lacy's northbound If Mr De Lacy really expected to see a stockbroking firms have actually materialised. northbound stampede of stockbroking It will be a less than perfect day in Queensland companies, his heart must have sunk into his and a cold day in hell when we see this boots when he read the review of his Budget prediction realised on the strength of Mr De by Morgan Stockbroking. If he expected Lacy's initiative, and also the race to bouquets from the financial sector, he must Queensland by the big financial business have been brought back to earth with a thump enterprises that were said to come as a result when he read the scathing Budget report of this. I do hope that the Treasurer got written prepared on behalf of Morgans by Michael guarantees from these people. Knox. It is fair to say that Morgans panned the Mr De Lacy: Gee you're anti- 1995-96 Budget. It is also fair to say that the Queensland. conclusion reached by Mr Knox was closer to Legislative Assembly 12261 8 June 1995 my own assessment of the Budget than to the interstate business to the detriment of back-slapping assessments of the Treasurer of other states revenue. Indeed, that was himself. Self-praise, as we know, is always the more likely than attracting overseas weakest. business. This is because transactions But those comments concern the Budget overseas already attract a low level of as a whole and, of course, this debate is stamp duty and so the incentive is lower restricted to matters associated with the to move. Premier's economic statement and the The result of Goss's move was change to duty on the transfer of marketable predictable. It perhaps happened faster securities. Sadly for the Treasurer, Morgans is than anyone would imagine. The other no more convinced about the value of these States have followed suit. It now means changes than it is about the erosion of the that in total, instead of collecting about State surplus and the use of dividends from $600 million a year on share transactions, Government owned enterprises to prop up the they will collect only half that. State Budget in a process borrowed from John The States will lose about Cain's Victoria. I quote from the Morgans' $300million. Money that would have gone report and suggest that the Treasurer listens to hospitals, roads, schools, will go to this— instead to people who trade in shares. "The treatment of this element of Well done, Goss." stamp duty within the budget papers is That congratulations from the Canberra Times intriguing. The total income generated was for Premier Goss. He has done well in from brokers returns and transfers in '94- Queensland to wipe out hospitals, roads and '95 was only $16 million. In spite of cutting schools, so I suppose he will be happy with this section of stamp duty in half in '95- applause for achieving the same result '96, the Government actually estimates interstate. The editorial went on— that the income from this duty will rise by 6.3% to $17 million in '95-'96. This means "The notion of competitive federalism that the Government has made the is only beneficial up to a point. It becomes assumption that cutting of the rate of self-defeating when the States erode their stamp duty in half will increase total already shrinking revenue bases and then turnover by 112%." go cap in hand to the Commonwealth. Tactics like Goss's make one wonder if It adds the sarcastic comment— the States deserve the financial "In the sharebroking business, we autonomy they cherish." rather like the thought of an increase of It is a mixed metaphor, but on this total turnover in one year of 112%." occasion the Premier, who likes to talk about The Treasurer must be shattered that the football, has scored an own goal, and the stockbroking community should be so cynical. Treasurer has converted it. The facts are that But if he enjoys the sensation, I suggest he when it comes to tax, this Government is used reads the editorial published by the Canberra to playing offside. This is the Government that Times on 30 May. To kick things off, I will read talks incessantly about low tax policies while it a few highlights into Hansard. delivers an endless parade of tax rises, usually Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.30 p.m. through the back door. This is yet another example of the Labor Government's big lie on Mrs SHELDON: Before lunch, I was taxation. Here we have the Treasurer talking quoting from an editorial published in the about reducing taxes. Big deal! It is a big deal Canberra Times on 30 May, which carried the when the Government's tax take continues to headline "States stamp out Goss". The article go through the roof. I really pity the poor begins— individual who has to concoct different ways of "The Queensland Premier, Wayne talking about tax cuts for the Treasurer while Goss, has shot himself in the foot." every year under Labor average That is a direct quote with which, of course, I Queenslanders pay more and more. agree. The editor relates the plans of the By now, everyone in this place is familiar Premier and Treasurer and then states— with the cold, hard reality of increased taxation "Well, that was either underhand or under Labor. After six years of this naive. He"— Government, every man, woman and child in Queensland pays $1,260 a year in taxes, Mr Goss— fees, fines and charges. That is a 60 per cent "must have known that by lowering the increase over six years, from the $790 each of Queensland rate he would attract them paid under the former National Party 8 June 1995 12262 Legislative Assembly

Government. It represents an overall increase picture of increasing taxation by the State for every man, woman and child of $470. Government. Since the last National Party Across Queensland, people have been Budget in 1989-90, total receipts for taxes, swamped with propaganda from the Labor fees and fines have increased by 76 per cent. Party and selective treatment of tax issues by That is the increase to 1995-96, with the the Treasurer. But with the election campaign impact of this Bill taken into account. With or looming, these are figures that will be without this revenue legislation, the tax slug by repeated again and again. Queenslanders will Labor has still outstripped the combined have a chance to assess the whole picture impact of Queensland's growing population when it comes to taxation by this Labor and its inflation rate over the period. The Government. Under Labor, Queenslanders are Labor tax slug has zoomed far ahead of denied the whole picture, because the measly increases in average weekly earnings, Government presents us with a jigsaw in which which in Queensland continue to fall further the pieces are never unscrambled. Hearing and further behind the national average. Over the taxation claims of this Government is like six years, the population has increased by hearing reports from blind men about the 10.3 per cent while average weekly earnings shape of an elephant. Premier Goss and have increased by only 19.5 per cent. That represents an increase of 19.5 per cent in the Treasurer De Lacy have plenty to say, but they same period as—despite this Bill—State taxes, make sure they never address the full picture. That is the case with the Bill before the House fees and fines rose by 60 per cent. Not today. surprisingly, the biggest increase has been in rat taxes: those secret taxes such as This Bill is intended to convince regulatory fees that have blown out by a Queenslanders that the Government is massive 214 per cent under Labor and this producing reductions in payroll tax, land tax Treasurer. Despite this Bill, regulatory fees will and stamp duty. Of the three, the smallest is have increased from $412.1m in 1989-90 to land tax; but in this year's Budget, we do not $1.3 billion in 1995-96. That is the record of see a decrease in land tax, even when the this Government, but there is much more impact of this Bill is taken into account. What where those figures came from. we see in relation to land tax is not a reduction The evidence of the tax rip-off in this but a $9m increase of 4.6 per cent. The State—with or without this token Bill and its increase occurs simply because the exemption token cuts—is overwhelming. Even when we proposed in this Bill applies only to companies take the performance of the National Party in and trustees, not families. Total revenue from Government out of the picture, the tax record land tax will increase from $190m to $204m. of the ALP does not improve. I have drawn up In this Budget, payroll tax will break the $1 a table in which I have measured up the billion mark for the first time. Even with this Bill impact of Labor taxes since the first Labor and its claimed reductions, the total burden Budget in 1990-91. imposed by payroll tax will rise to over $1 billion from $960m, and that is an increase of Mr De Lacy: Come on, give it to us. I'll 5.1 per cent. Similarly, stamp duty is headed do an analysis on it quick and lively. towards the $1 billion mark, with forecast Mrs SHELDON: I would bet that the revenue for 1995-96 of $914m. Those are the Treasurer would do an analysis on it! We two biggest taxes of the State Government, would hear more of his shonky figures, which and they are clearly increasing. we constantly hear read out in this House, as What is more, the Treasurer intends to with the interpretations of quite independent replace both the Stamp Act and existing reviews from which he selectively picks the payroll tax legislation later in the financial year figures that suit his end. Let us have a little bit when the election is out of the way. of truth from him and a little bit of unbiased Queenslanders were promised a look at the reporting on the true state of the economy in new legislation by the end of the past calendar this State. year, but the Treasurer has kept it hidden. Mr De Lacy: Can I ask one question? There is only one conclusion we can draw, and Will you answer one question? that is that further rises in payroll tax and Mrs SHELDON: No. At the Committee stamp duty are just around the corner. Once stage, the Treasurer can ask all the questions again, the Treasurer is misleading he likes. That is his time to ask questions, if he Queenslanders by producing this Bill while he wishes to have a debate on them. I am keeps his true intentions hidden. currently delivering a speech. Today, I am returning to the whole tax Across-the-board the tax picture in this picture. I will assess this Bill as it fits within the State is as shocking as it is dismal. The Legislative Assembly 12263 8 June 1995

Treasurer may well wonder why small $40m over three years", I can quite properly businesses in Queensland have by far the inform them that, thanks to Labor, they are lowest business confidence in Australia. We paying much, much more. know that that is a fact. An independent study When regulatory fees and other revenue was conducted—unlike the studies undertaken sources are included, the net result after five by the Treasurer. Small business confidence is years of Labor mismanagement under this low simply because the Treasurer has his foot Treasurer is an actual increase in total on their neck. Any amount of repackaging of Government revenue per capita of 17.5 per selective taxes and talking about tax cuts, cent in real terms. Thanks to Labor and no such as the Treasurer has done in this Bill, will thanks to this Bill, every man, woman and not disguise the impact of overtaxation by the child in this State pays $193 more in State Goss Government. Here are the sorry taxes, fees and fines than they paid in 1990- statistics. I suggest that all Labor Party 91. That figure is fully adjusted for inflation. I backbenchers who want to be re-elected say to my friends on the Government side that listen. these calculations are on the Treasurer's own Government members interjected. figures. I know that that lot opposite cannot Mrs SHELDON: That woke that lot up! count but these calculations are on his figures. All I could hear were snoring sounds, which Here are the facts on regulatory fees: in are the usual sounds we hear from that part of 1990-91, Queenslanders paid $806m in the Chamber. regulatory fees. Remember, these are the rat Since the first Labor Budget, total taxes that the State Government uses to taxation, excluding regulatory fees, is up by boost taxation through the back door. In $781.3m, or 41.2 per cent. That is $162, or 1995-96, thanks to Labor and no thanks to this Bill, the total for regulatory fees will be 25.7 per cent, extra in tax for every $1.296 billion. That is an increase of $491m, Queensland man, woman and child. Adjusted or 61 per cent. It is an increase for every man, for inflation, the increase in total taxation since woman and child of $91, or an increase of the first Labor Budget, excluding regulatory 30.8 per cent with inflation taken into account. fees, will be $600m by 1995-96. With this Bill Under Labor, in five years since 1991 a whole taken into account, that is a percentage range of these sneaky taxes have been increase in real terms of 22.4 per cent. The increased significantly even when population negative picture remains, even if we adjust the changes and inflation are taken into account. table to accommodate the Treasurer's oft- On these indices, auctioneers and agents fees referred-to changes in population. In real per capita terms, there has been a 14.7 per cent are up 6.3 per cent, rego is up 7.1 per cent, increase in taxes, excluding regulatory fees, tobacco is up 146.4 per cent—I hope the since Labor brought down its first Budget for Treasurer is listening—traffic fees are up 67.6 the 1990-91 financial year. With inflation taken per cent, construction notification is up 64.8 into account, that represents an increase of per cent and freehold title fees are up 36.2 per $102 for every man, woman and child. cent. These are the fees that affect the average man and women—the average Leaving regulatory fees to one side for a worker whom that lot opposite are supposed moment and speaking in real per capita terms, to represent—and whom they are ripping off. there have been solid increases over the past The fees for business names registrations— five years of Labor mismanagement in most the businesses that the Government is areas of taxation. Casino tax is up 90.1 per supposed to be helping—are up 20.5 per cent, debits tax is up 259.7 per cent, the Gold cent. Supreme and District Court fees are up Lotto tax is up 24.2 per cent, payroll tax is up 24 per cent. 7.5 per cent, stamp duty is up 11.9 per cent Those are the increases with every and the TAB tax is up 7.8 per cent. possible variable taken into account. So in This Government does well with the stating those figures we are being on the kind gambling that goes on in this State. It rips off side to the Treasurer. Add this sorry increase in big hunks of Government revenue money in taxation to the fact that, under Labor, that a lot of Queenslanders can ill afford to average weekly earnings in Queensland have spend and that a lot of families could well do continued to fall further behind the rest of the with in their pockets. I remind members that country and we have a dismal picture. That these are figures for 1995-96 compared with picture is of an overtaxing Government that is 1990-91, and they include the full effects of failing to provide Queenslanders with an this Bill. Although the Treasurer is happy to equitable return on the State's continued waste the time of Queenslanders with a growth and development, which continued Budget that is "delivering savings of around growth and development has absolutely 8 June 1995 12264 Legislative Assembly nothing to do with the Labor Party or the Under this Bill, the payroll tax threshold Labor Government. has been increased from $700,000 to This Bill is an insult to Queenslanders, $750,000—an increase of $25,000 as at 1 who are entitled to expect so much more by July 1995 and a further increase of $25,000 way of better services, infrastructure, as at 1 July 1996. Overall, that represents a opportunities and prosperity. Queensland is a 50 per cent lift in the payroll tax threshold by great State. This Government has not used the Goss Government since it has been in the great potential it had; it has not put that office. The other point that is very important, potential to its greatest use. This Bill is an which people like the Deputy Leader of the insult to Queenslanders who, when it comes to Opposition forget to mention, is the fact that taxes and the delivery of services and that levy has remained at 5 per cent whereas infrastructure, have had five years of hot air in other States it has increased dramatically. from the Labor Government. Despite all the Under this Bill, the land tax threshold has rhetoric, under Labor there remain two also been lifted, particularly for companies and certainties: taxes will increase and so will the trustees, from a threshold of $40,000 to bureaucracy. $60,000—an increase of $20,000. Another area that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition Mr D'ARCY (Woodridge) (2.45 p.m.): It did not refer to was the unfair tax that had gives me great pleasure to rise to support the been levied on hire businesses. That tax has Revenue Laws Amendment Bill 1995. This Bill been changed to a threshold of $100,000, is related directly to the State Budget. After which means that small hire companies will no listening to the member for Caloundra, one longer have to pay that tax. That will certainly could not believe that the member and I heard help consumers of businesses in that growing the same Budget Speech delivered by the industry. Treasurer. The latest Budget is probably one The Deputy Leader of the Opposition of the best Budgets in Queensland's history. It referred in some depth to the Government's is based on sound financial management, and decision to lower taxation on share transfers. it is one of the strongest financial Budgets The point that seems to be lost on most ever delivered. I must congratulate the people in Queensland—and in Australia—is Treasurer on the Budget. that this was a tremendous move. Despite the The Superannuation Legislation reaction of the other States to this move, the Amendment Bill 1995, which was debated fact is that most share transactions were not earlier today, referred to Queensland's fully being conducted in Australia, and this initiative funded State superannuation funds. That is a will bring that business back onshore. That reflection of Queensland's net debt free business was being conducted in Asia. For status, and it is an important element of this example, at present Hong Kong has no tax on Budget. The Revenue Laws Amendment Bill share transactions. However, through this enables us to change the regulations and initiative we are now competing with Asia for legislation to allow payroll tax, land tax and the share transfer business. That business stamp duty to be lowered. which, previously, was being conducted offshore will be returned to Australia. It is a During her speech the Deputy Leader of nonsense that this move will have a negative the Opposition forgot about sound financial effect on Queensland. It is going to have a management when she put forward her tremendous effect on the Australian industry, figures. In recent times, Queensland—and the particularly in relation to equities. There is a rest of Australia—has locked into the very large trade in equities. We were talking user-pays system. In doing so, we have earlier about the QIC and similar bodies supplied a far better and more comprehensive having investment portfolios of $10 billion, a service to Queenslanders, and I think that the lot of which is in equities. The transaction of Deputy Leader of the Opposition has totally share investments overseas creates an neglected to mention that. Government unnecessary delay. I am reminded of the days services are now far more efficient than they when everyone transferred titles in Canberra ever were under the National Party because the tax was lower in the ACT. It is Government. They are far more extensive, wrong that trading can be conducted in that better prepared and better delivered. In most way in Australian States. cases, the fees to which the Deputy Leader of The other furphy that the Deputy Leader the Opposition referred to as "rising taxation" of the Opposition fed to the House was that relate to the improved service delivery that this move would somehow affect our Queenslanders have now come to expect Commonwealth grants. Queensland receives from this Government. no favours in that regard, because it is on a Legislative Assembly 12265 8 June 1995 level playing field. Some other State outlook in their dealings with society. I have Governments had to adjust their budgets and spoken about bankruptcies and the reaction of severely increase taxation in sectors where this banks. The negativity of banks is still having a Government has not. Those States have been tremendous effect on the economy, even in disadvantaged by their budgets. Queensland this State. For example, it is inconceivable that is net debt free; therefore, we have more room interest rates in varying sectors are not able to in which to manoeuvre. It is to the benefit of be adjusted to take account of risk. For the whole of Australia that some of the other example, a bank might nominate a variable States are coming into line in relation to the rate of 10 per cent, yet the risk factor is not stamp duty charged on share transfers. It is comparable with the risk taken. In Australia, something that should have happened a long mortgage rates on housing loans should be time ago. far lower than for commercial and other loans If more Australian companies conduct for the simple reason that the failure rate in share transfers in Australia, the potential for lending for housing is lower than 5 per cent. investment in Australian companies is That figure varies substantially in other increased, and this leads immediately to a countries, such as the United States. It is greater number of jobs in this country. This disgraceful that banks cannot adjust interest measure also gives us the potential for rates for home buyers in this State to a increased exports, particularly secondary and suitable standard for that type of lending. That tertiary treated exports. Our capacity to export is something that will change. We are starting more sophisticated and tertiary treated to see changes; banks are being brought to products from primary industry, including heel by some of the smaller banks that were minerals, is improving. Those trade sectors are once building societies. We are starting to see making a tremendous difference to our mortgage rates for housing loans being economy. adjusted according to the comparable risk. As I said, the risk factor for housing loans is a lot Whilst on the subject of finance and lower in Australia than it is in other countries. It interest rates—it is interesting to note the is time that the banks started to adjust their current conjecture on interest rates. Most interest rates to reflect their true commercial economists accept that at the moment there is value. an upward trend in the Australian economy. For some time, I have predicted that there will This is obviously an excellent Bill, because be a four-year upward trend. We are already it achieves positive outcomes with respect to on the threshold of the first year of that taxation, raises the thresholds on payroll and upward trend. There are many doom and land tax and provides the proper perspective gloom merchants out there. Some areas will for what should be charged for equity be affected directly or indirectly by downturns transfers. The Treasurer has presented a very during that period. However, in relation to the sound Budget, which will be of benefit to overall economic clock, we are at the stage of Queensland's economy. seeing equity increases. That share prices go Mr FITZGERALD (Lockyer) (2.57 p.m.): up or down in one day, or that there is a short- I support the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill term change in interest rates, will not affect the before the House. As members have said, this general trend. The country and the State are Bill will implement some of the provisions on a sound financial basis, and that upward contained in the Budget. Therefore, we are trend has at least three years left in which to dealing with the capacity of this Government run. That trend will not be affected directly or to raise revenue. indirectly by overseas economies; most of their The honourable member who preceded interaction with the Australian economy has me in this debate spoke in particular about the been taken into consideration for that period. decrease in stamp duty charged on the sale Through sound management in many areas and purchase of listed marketable securities. we have been able to look at the longer term. He also mentioned the rights in respect of We have gotten rid of middle management shares being reduced from 30c to 15c for and those areas that were not necessary. In every $100 or part thereof. That is a Australia, we are becoming more efficient and substantial reduction. The honourable leaner and meaner. That is happening with member would remember what the Treasurer Governments and business. Australian said when he spoke about this matter rather business expects Governments to react to that glowingly in the press. The Treasurer's hope need, and it is good that the Queensland was to make Queensland a much bigger Government is doing that. player in the world market. He said that he was As to conjecture on interest rates—for far not after the capital being traded on the too long, the banks have had a negative southern stock exchanges; that happened to 8 June 1995 12266 Legislative Assembly be a consequence. He stated that he was companies—to flood money onto the after the 20 per cent of trade in Australian Australian market and pull it back offshore as shares that is conducted offshore. That soon as the tide starts to ebb. Those appears to be a very admirable goal for which companies come in and out like a monthly to aim. If we could see the return to tide. They will invest in Australia and then go Queensland of the 20 per cent of shares back offshore. They are the major being traded on the Hong Kong and other beneficiaries of this measure. stock exchanges, particularly in Asia, that If people are investing and investing to would be a commendable objective. But what stay, they invest once and then they sell their is the reality? shares and pay another 15c per $100 in The reality is that New South Wales and stamp duty—so 30c all told—but they invest Victoria had to quickly cut the size of their take once and sell their shares once. They are the from the sale of marketable securities on their real stayers. They are the people who are stock exchanges. That has meant that investing in Queensland. I note that BHP Queensland will no longer have a competitive shares have suddenly dropped another 28c edge over New South Wales and Victoria. I today because investors are pulling their understand that the Treasurer believes that he money out, but they will bring their money has a deal with the Australian Stock Exchange back at an opportune time. which will see it move certain trading houses to Mr Ardill: You are ignoring the fact that Queensland to accommodate the expected we are getting the revenue. increase in trade in Queensland. Do honourable members honestly believe that all Mr FITZGERALD: This measure is of that overseas trade will come back to merely allowing those types of investors to Queensland now that we have exactly the trade at a much lower rate. It is not helping same rate as Sydney and Melbourne? BHP or any other company to invest more money in plant, equipment and jobs. Mr Robertson: Yes. Mr Ardill: No. Mr FITZGERALD: Does the honourable member honestly believe that business will be Mr FITZGERALD: The member for attracted to Queensland from Hong Kong, Archerfield must realise that that is the story Kuala Lumpur and Singapore and that none being told by the Treasurer throughout the of it will go to the southern States? If that is country. I want to put the record straight. It is a the member's rationale and reasoning, I can positive move to impose lower stamp duty on understand why electors in his electorate of those who want to trade in shares, but we Sunnybank have said that they bought a dud should not expect that it will bring new in sending him into this House. Quite frankly, investment to the State, it will merely assist that will not happen. We have seen a very those investors who go in and out of the slight decrease in the take to the Queensland marketplace at their financial whims. Treasury. This legislation makes changes to land The trade in marketable commodities tax, payroll tax and stamp duty. As to payroll should not have been taxed to the extent that tax—I note that the take still increases from it was in the past, so I welcome this move. $960m to over $1 billion a year. So although However, the hype that has gone with it will there has been a reduction, the increase has mean that we will not achieve the objective of actually been greater than the level of attracting trade to Queensland. The inflation. The Treasurer's own Budget honourable member for Woodridge is well documents refer to that fact. Those versed in the dealings of the Stock Exchange. documents state that the reduction in other He would know that the money going into the areas is more than offset by the increase in Stock Exchange is not always new money. the payroll tax threshold. So we are getting an The Treasurer has hyped up the issue by increase in payroll tax, although it is a saying, "It will mean more jobs and investment reduction. in Queensland. More companies will be I believe that it is quite dishonest for the floated in Queensland. More Queenslanders Treasurer to claim that the payroll tax will be able to invest in Queensland", and so exemption threshold is now $750,000. That on. Have honourable members ever thought does not apply until 1 July 1996—after the what difference a change of 15c per $100 will next Budget. The Treasurer is forecasting a make to an investment? That will not have an reduction for the next Budget. I know that the enormous impact in people's decisions to law is being amended now—it is l-a-w, law— invest in particular companies; it helps those but it can be amended at any time. It is quite companies—particularly the overseas dishonest to claim that level this year when it Legislative Assembly 12267 8 June 1995 does not actually apply until next year. As I It is all right if one happens to buy virtually said before, it becomes l-a-w, law, and we a standard truck such as a Ford Louisville, a know all about that because it can be Mercedes, a Volvo or an International, all of amended at any time in this House. The which have their own equipment on Treasurer cannot take all the credit for that board—although various motors can be amendment. chosen—so that one pays a standard price. I turn to the Stamp Act. I want to highlight Today's Courier-Mail contains a large ad for a a concern of a constituent of mine relating to 1994 plate stock clearance. It advises of a the stamp duty payable on vehicles. The limited offer on a Louisville LTS 9000— amount of stamp duty payable on vehicles is $10,000 cash back. Obviously, the price is $2 per $100. From advice received from a $10,000 less than one would expect to pay for dealer, I understand that that is paid on the a similar truck with a 1995 plate. The ad lists Brisbane list price of a vehicle. That may be an all the identification numbers of the trucks. advantage to people in the country, because Although nearly all of them have the same they do not have to pay stamp duty on the suspension, two of them have different dealer fees and the freight on a vehicle. On an suspensions and there are three or four ordinary car, that is a substantial amount. A engine options. The question is: what is the constituent of mine purchased a Kenworth price of the vehicle? truck last year. It was a bare truck with no Everyone agrees that stamp duty must be turntable and no bullbar and for which he paid collected. We cannot provide hospitals and $210,000. He paid the stamp duty on it, which schools unless we collect some taxation. everyone has to do. However, he has now However, it appears that stamp duty is being received a letter from the State Government assessed unfairly. A Holden Commodore claiming that the stamp duty on that vehicle usually sells for around $33,000, but certain was underpaid by $842. That fellow paid the models may be run out and sold for $31,000. full duty that he had to pay at the time. The Generous trades may be offered or cash-back dealer deducted the stamp duty and sent it in. offers may be made. Those deals are often However, that fellow now finds that he owes a offered when the new model is to be released rather substantial amount—$842 plus a late- in a couple of weeks' time. The value of those payment penalty of $25, making a total of run-out models has definitely decreased. I $869.20 to be paid. Postage charges and an cannot believe that a model that is being run assessment fee of $2.20 were added to make out is worth the same as it was 12 months the final figure. before. So people go in and say, "I will pay When it is worked out, that means that $31,000 for this Commodore with certain the truck was undervalued by $42,100. Of options on it." Under the current assessment course, that means that the truck was worth laws, people are paying the stamp duty much more than the price that that fellow paid applying to the $33,000 vehicle. I believe that for it—$252,100, according to the assessor. I that is wrong, because people are buying a would like to know how the assessor arrived at $31,000 car. The same applies to the chap that price for a Kenworth. Some models of who purchased this truck. He says that he trucks are custom-made. People buy the cab would not have bought a $252,000 truck; it and chassis, but they can choose the just was not economical for him to do so, so suspension or the engine that they want. They he bought a brand-new truck for $210,000, might choose a Detroit diesel, a Caterpillar but the Treasurer still collects the stamp duty diesel or a Cummins diesel. People can on the higher amount. choose from various gearboxes, including the Kenworth, the Mack or the Western Star. A This may have been the case for some range of differentials can be fitted, and people time, but I do not believe so. I believe that the can choose different ratios for different makes. legislation was amended not that long ago, There are different wheel assemblies and but I stand corrected on that. There must be a even different tyres. As I said, the truck in more equitable way of collecting stamp duty question was bought without a turntable and from people. I know that there are certain without a bullbar. The owner is wondering how ways that people can get around it with regard the price was calculated. He was told that for to accessories. If people fit a bullbar, a radio that deal he would pay $210,000. He paid the and a tow bar to a vehicle before taking stamp duty at the time. Now the assessor has delivery of it, they pay the stamp duty on that claimed—and I believe that the assessors amount of money. If $1,000 worth of have been going back up to five years—that accessories has been fitted, an amount of $2 this truck was worth $252,100 and that this per $100 is payable in stamp duty. Therefore, fellow therefore owes nearly $900 in stamp the stamp duty is paid on the accessories. duty. He is not too happy about that. However, if the vehicle is purchased and those 8 June 1995 12268 Legislative Assembly accessories are fitted the next day, stamp duty Mr STEPHAN: I rise to a point of order. is not paid on them, which means that the Mr Deputy Speaker, I draw your attention to Treasurer misses out on that stamp duty. the numbers in the House. Sales tax may be paid, if necessary, but I am Quorum formed. talking about the stamp duty that goes to State Treasury. When it comes to purchasing Mr BEATTIE: I was saying that there a car, most people are not bothered with that. are four major aspects to this legislation and I They want the vehicle and all the accessories had just quickly gone through them. I had as one package; they do not want to be already mentioned the third objective of this dodging and fiddling around over a couple of legislation and I was about to turn to the dollars of stamp duty. However, when it comes Opposition spokespersons—the honourable to purchasing a truck, because of the large member for Caloundra, and the honourable amounts of money involved, the story is member for Lockyer—who talked about the certainly different. decision to halve the rate of stamp duty applying to trading and transfers of marketable This matter needs to be addressed. It is securities. not fair for truck owners, whose vehicle purchases involve large amounts of money. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition and Opposition Treasury spokesman made big The trucking industry is a very important play of an editorial in the Canberra Times. She industry. People have the right to buy vehicles said that that editorial had said that the at whatever price they can. They should be Premier had shot himself in the foot. Of course paying stamp duty on the price for which they that paper would whinge. What else would the purchase the vehicle. At an end of model sale, Canberra Times say? It is like the New South we all know that a car dealer gets a generous amount of money to allow for trade-ins. We Wales and Victorian Treasurers whingeing. Of often see cases of dealers paying $12,000 for course they were going to whinge; we stole a a trade-in and that vehicle is then listed for march on them. It is like Canberra coming up sale for about $12,000. People think that the here and supporting the Broncos in a home dealer is selling the vehicle at that trade-in game. price. He cannot afford to sell it at that same Mr T. B. Sullivan: They whinged price. He has to get a mark-up on it. He has to almost as much as Mrs Sheldon. pay his way; he has an extra vehicle on his Mr BEATTIE: Not quite that badly. hands. If he is going for a clean skin, he can What a nonsense! Of course the Canberra always get that much shaved off what he has Times will take issue in its editorial, because to allow to resell that vehicle, including the Queensland took the initiative. The Treasurer service of the vehicle and any necessary and the Premier had enough initiative to repairs. That matter needs to be addressed introduce this measure, so of course Canberra because it is quite unfair on those who are would whinge and moan. I have never seen being taxed for something that they are not such squealing from the New South Wales getting. and Victorian Treasurers, and all because they Mr BEATTIE (Brisbane Central) did not have the incentive to do what we did (3.12 p.m.): I rise to support the Revenue and because their financial position is not as Laws Amendment Bill 1995 which does four good as ours. things: firstly, it increases the land tax The honourable member for Caloundra exemption threshold for companies and trusts wanted to know what we have got out of this by 50 per cent to $60,000; secondly, it now that the other States have followed our increases the payroll tax exemption threshold lead. What we have out of it is what the from $700,000 to $750,000 in two stages, the Premier said at a luncheon held recently that first increase of $25,000 becoming effective he and the Treasurer attended. The Premier from 1 July 1995 and the second increase of talked about the psychological advantage of $25,000 becoming effective from 1 July 1996; this initiative—a psychological advantage thirdly, it halves the rate of Queensland stamp which says that Queensland is the place to be, duty applying to trading and transfers of that Queensland is the place with the initiative, marketable securities listed on the Australian that Queensland is well managed financially Stock Exchange; and, finally, it increases the and that Queensland is prepared to take rental duty exemption threshold from $10,000 initiatives to encourage business. That is what to $100,000. the message was, that is what the message So far in this debate, it has been is, and it does not matter that the other States interesting to hear the comments from have followed our example. We provided that members of the Opposition. psychological lead—that psychological edge— which was a message that went around the Legislative Assembly 12269 8 June 1995 whole of Australia and overseas. What do the The member for Caloundra trumpets about investment houses and companies overseas what is happening in other States, but the think? They know that this State took the position is that the tax burden in other States initiative. It was the best PR exercise is one-third higher than it is in Queensland. If imaginable. that is what she wants to support, she should The honourable member for Caloundra tell the people of Queensland, as should the made some disparaging remarks about the honourable Leader of the Opposition, in the countdown to this year's State election that State's economy, and I want to dwell on that that is what she supports. for a little while. We have to remember that the Queensland economy is strong and that it Compared with the revenue policies of outperforms the other States. The forecast other State Governments, the Goss economic growth is 4.3 per cent for 1995-96 Government leaves a massive $1,280m each compared with the national average of 3.75 year in the pockets of Queenslanders, which per cent, so we lead the country. We have minimises business costs and maximises maintained Queensland's AAA rating, we have private sector activity. That is what this continued the financial performance which Government does. We leave that amount of delivered a surplus budget—and I will come money in the pockets of ordinary back to that—and we have further improved Queenslanders. That does not happen in the the Government's negative net debt position. States with conservative Governments in the In addition to that, of course, we have rest of Australia. maintained Queensland's status as a low-tax Let us look at the low-tax position. Despite State. what the honourable member for Caloundra This Bill is about a $40m tax relief says, Queensland remains the low-tax State in package for business. It includes, as I said Australia with per capita collections in 1994-95 earlier in more detail, increasing the payroll tax estimated to be $552 per person less than in exemption threshold, increasing the land tax New South Wales. We take $552 less from exemption threshold for companies and trusts each Queenslander than the Government in and providing concessions on lease stamp New South Wales. Crossing the border means duty and rental duty. They are the sorts of paying an extra $552 a year. That was the initiatives that will continue to provide a strong legacy of the Liberal Government in that State economy. under John Fahey and Nick Greiner—$552 less in Queensland than next door. Opposition Let us debunk the nonsense that we members can say what they like: have heard from the Opposition speakers on Queenslanders pay $552 less a year than this Bill. Let us look at the real position of the they do next door. Those figures speak for Queensland economy. As I said, in 1995-96 themselves. There are further tax concessions the Queensland economy continues to have a and no new taxes in the 1995-96 Budget, high rate of growth—higher than the rest of which is why this legislation is before the Australia. Indeed, the position is such that, as House today. a result of the previous Budgets—last year's in Mr Stephan interjected. particular—business investment in recent years has showed a growth in 1994-95 of Mr BEATTIE: I will return to the around 18.7 per cent. honourable member and his rock-throwing exercises in Gympie in a minute. In 1993-94, The honourable member for Caloundra Queensland could have raised an extra $1.3 can make whatever disparaging remarks she billion in revenue if it had applied the likes about the Treasurer, but let us look at Australian average revenue rates—that is, tax how good the Treasurer's figures are. In last and other revenue. year's Budget papers he predicted that business investment in this financial year Mr Ardill: That is from the Federal tax would be at 19 per cent and it turned out to be authority. 18.7 per cent. That is an impressive prediction Mr BEATTIE: That is right; they are in a reasonably difficult area, and I think that it independent figures. The growth of 5 per cent is indicative of how good a Treasurer Keith De in total receipts largely reflects improved tax Lacy is. If we look at a comparative basis, receipts due to a stronger economy and which is what the honourable member for higher GOE returns. Queensland business Caloundra tried to do, based on the latest investment is expected to increase in 1995-96 Grants Commission data for 1993-94, which is from the very strong position it had in 1994-95. the latest available, the tax burden in other Net interstate migration is high, whereas other States is one-third higher than in Queensland. States are losing population. 8 June 1995 12270 Legislative Assembly

Queensland is in this sound financial Mr BEATTIE: What is the member position because the Treasurer has pursued a doing—throwing rocks at him? The member trilogy of financial commitments. Firstly, the should not get too excited, or he will dribble on Government has maintained Queensland as a his shirt. low-tax State. Secondly, it has fully funded all Queensland's debit tax is about half that liabilities, maintained financial assets sufficient in New South Wales and Victoria. Queensland to meet the Government's future has the lowest workers' compensation superannuation liabilities, and provided full premiums of any State. One does not hear actuarial funding of workers' compensation the Opposition talk about that. People moving and motor vehicle third-party claims. Thirdly, to Queensland have lower set-up costs. For the Government has borrowed for income- example, in Queensland, the stamp duty on a producing assets only; that is, funding social $250,000 house is $2,500, compared with capital assets such as schools and hospitals $7,240 in New South Wales and $11,000 in from the recurrent revenues and borrowing Victoria. only for assets that effectively generate income streams sufficient to meet debt- Mr Stephan interjected. servicing costs. Consequently, we have been Mr Horan interjected. able to introduce legislation such as the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill 1995. Mr Johnson interjected. The Queensland Government now earns Mr BEATTIE: Look at Opposition more interest on its financial assets than it members get excited! They hate the truth. It pays out on borrowings. The other States pay really attacks their soul, because they know on average 13.4 per cent of State that with an election around the corner they Government revenue in net interest payments. have to explain how they are going to fund Queensland's ratio is minus 1.1 per cent. Prior their promises, and they do not have a clue. to this Budget, Queensland had $1.7 billion a We never hear about Opposition policies; they year to put into service delivery, keeping taxes have not even been costed. Why would low and providing infrastructure, while other Opposition members not get excited and States had to service their debts. throw rocks on the roof? Mr Bennett: The National Party never I went to Gympie on Saturday night and bothered about service. Mr Stephan and his mates were throwing Mr BEATTIE: Of course. The stones on the roof. The National Party in Opposition Treasury spokesman tried to Gympie did not want to hear the truth and it misrepresent the position of Queensland as does not want to hear it today, but I am not the low-tax State. The average tax collection finished. All the taxes that I have listed apply per capita in other States is one-third higher in other States, but they do not apply in than it is in Queensland. That is why people Queensland. are flocking here. In 1988-89, the margin was The stereotypical view of Queensland is 32 per cent. So the gap is now widening and that it is a State of farmers and miners. In fact, we are actually doing better than before. In manufacturing comprises a bigger part of this 1988-89, the gap between collections was 32 State's economy than do agriculture and per cent; now it is 40 per cent. In that short mining combined. As is the case throughout period, there has been an 8 per cent variation Australia, the services sector—retail, in the State tax paid by Queenslanders. That construction, tourism and so on—dominates is an impressive record. Despite what our economy. We have a broad economy and members of the National Party say, when they the manufacturing sector is growing. The were in Government, they were nowhere near Queensland economy is bigger than the New that. Zealand economy, and it is nearly as big as We argue about taxes, and from time to both the Western Australia and South time the Leader of the Opposition and his Australian economies combined, and the deputy coalition partner ask questions about economy of Singapore as well. taxes. Queensland has no petrol tax, no From time to time, comments appear in financial institutions' duty and lower payroll the press about how much the economies of taxes. New South Wales and Victoria have a 7 our Asian neighbours have grown in recent per cent payroll tax. In Queensland, the times. This Government has made a threshold for exemption from payroll tax is considerable effort to improve trade relations $750,000; in New South Wales, it is $500,000; with Japan, one of our traditional trading and in Victoria it is $515,000. partners, and Hong Kong, China, Vietnam and Mr Stephan interjected. Thailand. Legislative Assembly 12271 8 June 1995

When people talk about strong, growing running for cover. She is never here when I economies they tend to think automatically of stand up to put the true facts on the record. I the Asian tigers such as Korea, Taiwan, Hong can only assume that it is deliberate. She is Kong, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. In prepared to stand up here and say anything at the 1990s, Queensland has been close to all, unprepared to take an interjection and not matching the Asian tigers in growth. In the prepared to remain around and to hear how past three years, the Queensland economy she has misused the facts. has grown by 16.7 per cent, compared with Mr Fenlon: She's gone back to hide 6.6 per cent growth in the other States of under the bed. Australia. Without the drought, Queensland's growth would have been more like 19 per Mr De LACY: That is what she has cent. Over the same period, the Asian tigers done, gone back to hide under her bed. recorded growth of around 20 per cent. Perhaps if I could just make a few comments Queensland's economic growth is very about what she said about the halving of comparative to the economies in the Asian stamp duty on share transactions. I have area. It is simply untrue and dishonest on the never heard of such a narrow, inward-looking part of the Opposition to try to misrepresent attitude in my life. It is about time members of the state of the economy. the Opposition got a little bit of vision. If they started to look outwards instead of increasingly I give the Opposition a very gratuitous looking inwards—— word of caution: Queenslanders know what a good job the Treasurer and this Government Mr Johnson: You're the one with no have done in job creation, keeping taxes low vision. and ensuring that the growth in Queensland Mr De LACY: Talk about vision! The continues. joke after the Budget is that headlines all Mr Bennett: And improvement in around Australia were talking about the vision services. of the Goss Government, and Mr Borbidge is running around town saying there is no vision. Mr BEATTIE: And an improvement in I assume Mr Johnson was running around services; that is exactly right, because in many western Queensland saying that the ways this is a services budget. If the Government has no vision. But I can assure Opposition continues to whinge and moan honourable members opposite that our and denigrate Queensland as it has done, it initiative in respect of stamp duty on share will suffer the consequences at the election. transactions was a lot more visionary than the Anyone who is serious about the future of response that we heard from these characters Queensland would have been supportive over there. about the decision to halve the rate of Queensland stamp duty applying to the All Mrs Sheldon could talk about was what trading and transfers of marketable securities. New South Wales and Victoria did, the way in That was a very sound initiative. What if the which they trumped us a week after the event rest of Australia followed Queensland? It has by being forced kicking and screaming into been following us for the last six years and will reducing stamp duties to the level of the continue to do so. Queensland rates. We knew in the end that they would have to do that, but we had a Mr FitzGerald interjected. couple of objectives in mind. Talk about Mr BEATTIE: The member nearly got looking outwards! The fact is—and this is excited. It is all right. I knew we had been here something totally missed by the editorial in the for the last six years! For the last six years, the Canberra Times—that we had a tax rate on other States have been following our lead, share transactions in Australia which was no and they will continue to follow our lead. Any longer internationally competitive. Because the suggestion to the contrary by the honourable share market these days trades electronically, members opposite does not do them any traders can do their trading where they like. good and certainly does not help this State. I What they were doing was increasingly trading support the Bill before the House. offshore. Our objective was to bring that Hon. K. E. De LACY (Cairns— business back to Australia. Treasurer) (3.31 p.m.), in reply: I thank Speaking as a parochial Queenslander, it honourable members for their support for this would have been great if we could have piece of legislation. I shall make a comment maintained that competitive advantage for about the shadow Treasurer who, when there another year or so, but speaking as an is a piece of legislation to be debated, makes Australian, every State has done the right a habit of coming into this House and making thing. What benefits do we get? The first outrageous and insupportable claims and then benefit is that as Australians we can now bring 8 June 1995 12272 Legislative Assembly all of that business that was being transacted separated out in a trust fund. We abolished offshore back to Australia. That is number 1. the trust fund and brought the money into the Number 2—— Consolidated Fund. We still dedicate it all to Mr FitzGerald: Are you going to get the road funding but it is in the Consolidated Hong Kong market back? Fund. The reason it grows is the increase in the number of vehicles being registered. We Mr De LACY: We are competitive with have not increased the rate. This is the other Hong Kong. We have exactly the same rate thing—— as Hong Kong now. So those Australians and Australian companies and those big investors Mr Johnson: But up 5.9 per cent. Up that were using the Hong Kong stock market 5.9 per cent. Be honest. Admit that, Treasurer. will now do it in Australia, because we are Just tell the people it's up 5.9. They should competitive. But there were two other benefits know that. to Queensland. One is that the Australian Mr De LACY: I will accept the Stock Exchange has undertaken—and it will interjection. There has been no increase in the honour the undertaking—to shift a sizeable motor vehicle registration rate, but each year part of its activities here to Brisbane and to we get an increase in revenue because we incorporate its activities here in Brisbane. That have a growing population, a growing is a tangible benefit. economy and there are more cars registered. The second thing is that we have got that It seems so difficult for people in the symbol out there again once more that Opposition to get that into their thick heads. Queensland is the low-tax State of Australia. Mrs Sheldon was up there talking about the Honourable members opposite could not have way in which we have increased revenue from bought the kind of publicity that we got. payroll tax. Surprise, surprise. We forecast an Businesses are talking about it everywhere. increase this year. It is nothing to do with any Right around Australia and indeed overseas rates; it is because there will be an increase in businesses are talking again about how weekly earnings and there will be an increase Queensland stole a march on everybody else. in employment over the year. That is not unimportant. I might say that in the Mr T. B. Sullivan: The only thing that end they took a decision in respect of other would make them happy is if we went into a taxes which will inevitably have beneficial flow slump, by the sounds of it. on effects to our Budget. At the end of the Mr De LACY: Yes. Maybe if we went day for Queensland it was win, win, win. Yet into a recession, then the revenue would go Mrs Sheldon gets up there in her normal, down, and I suppose honourable members negative whining way trying to create the opposite would say that we had cut rates to be impression that somehow it did not work. It consistent. worked and it unfolded exactly as I predicted that it would, with great benefit to Queensland, Mr Johnson: No, I wouldn't say that at I might say, and Australia. all. In her speech to the Budget, Mrs Sheldon Mr De LACY: No, because one thing got up and said the same thing. Had she honourable members opposite could never be hung around till the end she would have learnt accused of being is consistent. So when we how improper it was to make the kind of are comparing 1990 with 1995 we need to allegations that she did. But for the record, compare like with like. If we did a fair analysis because it was raised again today, I will point we would either put the motor vehicle out how wrong it was. Mrs Sheldon said that registration in on both or take it out on the per capita tax collections have increased both—either way. The bank accounts debit tax by $470 per capita or 60 per cent. The is another one. It was a Commonwealth tax. It analysis is flawed because it does not was given to the States. We did not actually compare like with like. ask for it but it was given to us. So it is now part of our revenue. But they also deducted The fact is that the tax base or accounting an amount from our financial assistance changes in the composition of the grants. Mrs Sheldon conveniently stands up Consolidated Fund have changed over time. and says, "We have increased our tax In 1990, the base year with which she is revenue. Look at this." But it has an offset comparing revenue, there is a whole of range account. That is why it is so flawed and so of trust funds that were not included in the fraudulent for Mrs Sheldon to get up here and Consolidated Revenue Fund. The best quote the figures that she did. But of course, if example is motor vehicle registration. We she is telling a lie, she should not listen to collect something like $450m a year from anybody. If someone is trying to promulgate a motor vehicle registration, which in 1990 was lie, do not listen to what anybody else says Legislative Assembly 12273 8 June 1995 because that person might understand that Mr FitzGerald: How do they determine you are out there promoting a lie. She comes the list price for a custom-built vehicle? into this Chamber, tells everybody that and Mr De LACY: The only way to then races out in case somebody might determine that is to consider the list price and disprove what she said. It is very easy to all of the additions to it and come to a final disprove. price. But, if it is custom built—— Mr Johnson: I can tell you, I won't race Mr FitzGerald: It has to go to the out. I'll sit here and listen to you. I've never run Supreme Court, doesn't it? If you want to away from anyone in my life. appeal, you've got to go to the Supreme Mr De LACY: Seeing that I feel well Court. disposed, I would have to say that that is why Mr De LACY: Yes. the honourable member has a much deeper Mr FitzGerald: You cannot go to the understanding of these issues than Mrs Supreme Court for a $900 bill. Sheldon. Mr De LACY: So, pay your tax. The member for Lockyer used the Mr FitzGerald: As you assess them. opportunity to introduce the subject of stamp duty being calculated on the list price of motor Mr De LACY: Everybody has to pay vehicles. That is true and I believe that there is their tax. We administer the taxation legislation a good, supportable reason for it. That is one as fairly and equitably as we possibly can. of those policy positions that, firstly, is made There is no question or suggestion that the on the basis of equity and, secondly, tends to Office of State Revenue would unfairly favour people in country Queensland. People interpret the taxation legislation. They interpret pay the same stamp duty for the same it as they believe it is written and as they vehicle. If a person obtains a good deal, that believe it was intended. Of course, from time person does not obtain a benefit in stamp to time, there is controversy. There is never duty; if a person obtains a bad deal, that any question about that; they do not make person does not pay more in stamp duty. changes to rulings, all they do is update their However, most of the good deals are in the rulings in the light of circumstances, and they city areas, where there is a lot more change from time to time. competition. In country areas, people pay I thank all honourable members for their more for their vehicles because freight is support for this legislation. I am pleased that added and, usually, the environment is less everybody has supported it. I expected that, of competitive. However, they pay exactly the course, because it is all about reducing taxes. same stamp duty as people in the cities pay. I Motion agreed to. have considered this issue on a number of occasions and sometimes I think that maybe we should change it but, on the basis of Committee equity, I am convinced that what we are doing Clauses 1 to 14, as read, agreed to. is the best approach. Bill reported, without amendment. As to optional extras—again, that is an issue about which I have had many discussions with motor traders and others. The Third Reading fact is that stamp duty is payable on the Bill, on motion of Mr De Lacy, by leave, vehicle, that is, the whole of the vehicle. The read a third time. definition of a vehicle and optional extras changes over time. Twenty years ago, HEALTH SERVICES AMENDMENT airconditioning was a true optional extra. Now, BILL it is not an optional extra; it is part of the vehicle. That is all that has changed. The Second Reading policy has not changed; the definition of Debate resumed from 23 May (see optional extras has changed. From time to p. 11838). time, we receive representations from the Mr HORAN (Toowoomba South) motor traders about this matter. That policy is (3.48 p.m.): We resume this debate after it not something that is new, because it has was adjourned on Budget day. A few always been there; it is something that I am moments remain in which to conclude the re-examining from time to time but, on the speech that I was delivering. At the time the balance of all the arguments put to me, I think debate was adjourned, I was talking about our policy is supportable. regionalisation and the paralysis that it has 8 June 1995 12274 Legislative Assembly caused to Queensland Health. One of the had bought the land for that hospital so there fundamental reasons we have a health crisis would be a new, additional hospital for the in Queensland is the problems of growing population. regionalisation. In particular, I was saying that Mr Elder: Swamp. this Government has recognised that the National/Liberal coalition is right in its Mr HORAN: It bought the land, which is assessment of one of the fundamental on a beautiful site. Government members reasons Queensland Health is in turmoil. We know that, strategically, it is a magnificent site. have identified the problems of regionalisation The National Party Government allocated that and in our policy we have announced that, if site to provide additional services for the new, we are elected to Government, we will growing populations, not to decimate the dismantle regionalisation because it creates hospital in the inner city—a tertiary hospital an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. Two that provides services for at least 40 per cent extra layers of bureaucracy were introduced of Queensland's patients from all areas of the with regionalisation: the sector level where State. So what we have seen—and this is a administration is carried out and payrolls are good example of what is happening prepared, and the additional layer of the throughout the State—is about 120 new beds, regional health authorities and the entire but 400 beds closed down. But those 400 offices and empires that go with that. beds have been closed at a hospital that, in many cases, has the specialists to provide the As I said at the outset of this speech, the services that are not available elsewhere in the legislation is about litigation, indemnity for State. So what has happened to the people? Queensland Health employees and putting in Where do they go when they turn up at the place a mechanism to assist in recruitment of hospital? Government members should go to people to Queensland Health because it has the hospital any morning they wish and from 7 removed a small area of risk in which people o'clock or 8 o'clock they will see elderly people felt they may not have been fully indemnified waiting for a bed. For three or four weeks, they against negligence. I believe that it is also have been booked into a bed, yet they sit about properly valuing health employees. If there and wait. Come 5 o'clock, or 5.30 p.m., some things have been missing in some of them get a bed, but some do not Queensland Health in the past six years, they because there is a capped elective surgery are valuing employees and respecting rate of 30 beds a day. That is all that is employees. available. So these people sit and wait to get We have seen fundamental issues of their bed. mismanagement in Queensland Health, such However, the other part of the problem as regionalisation, misdirection of budgets, lies with the accident and emergency section. unfunded or partially funded wages rises and People are lying on trolleys in the accident and getting rid of all the good, experienced emergency section because they cannot get administrators. It has been one thing after from that section into a bed in the hospital. another that has led to the health crisis that There is no bed for them to go to, so the staff has caused the reduction in rosters and are forced to use all the cubicles and all the working conditions that have caused people to trolleys, which jam the entire area. If there was no longer want to work in the system. It is not a fire, a most dangerous situation would be simply a matter of saying, "We are going to created. Those patients have nowhere to go, give you indemnity." That is not going to bring so they lie around waiting until the afternoon those people back because that is not the or late at night, hoping that they might get a reason they left. It is not the reason the nurses bed. have left the PA Hospital, the Royal Brisbane Hospital or other hospitals throughout the That is the microcosm of what is State. The reason is the conditions under happening in Queensland Health. Once upon which they work. It is conditions such as those a time, the demand, whatever it was, could be that exist in the accident and emergency area met by the hospital system. It was the proud that has been in the news so much lately. I boast of the Royal Brisbane Hospital and all talk to the staff, and they tell me that there is who worked there that whoever turned up at no room to put anyone. The Royal Brisbane the door could be treated and given a bed. Hospital is one of the most classic examples of However, that is no longer the case. Instead, mismanagement by this Government that one people are turned away. could ever possibly imagine. The 120-bed Just last Monday afternoon at the Caboolture Hospital on the north side of accident and emergency section of the Brisbane was started by the National Party Princess Alexandra Hospital a similar situation Government. The National Party Government occurred. Because all the trolleys and all the Legislative Assembly 12275 8 June 1995 cubicles were full there was nowhere to put good, experienced Queensland nurses have patients. Why? Because through this walked out. Government's brilliant planning, it has closed I turn now to the question of liability and down the accident and emergency section, the situation that exists in the other States. In the intensive care ward and the medical ward most other States of Australia, employers at the QE II Hospital so major operations indemnify their employees. The method by cannot be conducted at the hospital and sick which this is achieved has varied greatly from people cannot be treated. The paediatric State to State. Under the Employees Liability section and the maternity section of that Act 1991, employers in New South Wales are hospital have also been closed, yet the obliged to indemnify their employees. In Government has the hide to say that two or addition, as an incentive to country doctors, three floors of the hospital are empty. Of the New South Wales Government will not course they are, because the Government has ripped everything out of the hospital. The only indemnify doctors for all public patients Labor Party pulled out those services. but also provide a $5,000 extra payment for private medical insurance. Hospitals in South In 1989, the dental service was located at Australia self-insure most medical officers. The one end of the third floor and the rest of that Western Australian and Northern Territory floor was vacant. Until this mob moved in and Governments indemnify their employees. The ripped everything out of the hospital and Victorian Department of Health maintains a shifted it down to Logan, that was the only comprehensive private professional indemnity part of the QE II Hospital that was vacant. A program to indemnify all doctors who provide similar situation exists in Caboolture. When the services to public patients. National Party Government bought the land It is worth mentioning the recent for the Logan Hospital and built Stage 1, it professional indemnity review that was was built to be able to cope later with new and undertaken by the Commonwealth additional services. It was well planned by the Department of Human Services and Health in National Party Government to cater for the 1991. In February 1994, an interim report was booming population in those areas. Instead, produced. The review was established this crowd has opened those hospitals, but it because there were a number of concerns, has closed down the QE II. So we have and those concerns included the fact that few chaos. The 230,000 people who live around people suffering adverse health outcomes the QE II Hospital have nowhere to go were compensated. The common law system because the services that they once had at is costly and involves delays. The operation of their community general hospital have been a fault-based compensation scheme can closed down or decimated. conflict with broader public health policies. The At the Greenslopes hospital, 70 public current indemnity, legal and compensation beds were used every day, yet this arrangements do not prevent adverse patient Government turned its back on the offer of outcomes. The existing indemnity that hospital—worth about $250m, plus full arrangements for health providers may be operational costs for 10 years, plus $6m for a inadequate. Indemnity subscriptions have cardiac surgical unit—for free. Why would the been rising rapidly, and the vicarious liability of Government turn its back on such an offer? employees is inconsistent between States and What did the member for Greenslopes do? may be inadequate. Those people who had chosen to live in that One of the reasons for this amending Bill area so that they could be near a hospital lost has been that the definition of "indemnity" has that magnificent facility. It had one of the best widened. Once upon a time a duty of care was theatre complexes in Australia. Now it is gone one of the main bases of the definition. It all forever. Like the closure of the QE II, the revolved around the doctor/patient closure of the Greenslopes hospital placed relationship. However, recent cases have really extra demands on the PA Hospital. widened the scope of the indemnity ruling. I So we have seen this mismanagement refer in particular to a case in Australia in which creating a domino effect of one closure or one a GP had told a person to see a specialist. downgrade after another until we have That GP made the arrangements for making reached the stage at which the remaining the appointment and so forth. As it turned out, facilities are overcrowded and cramped. the patient did not see the specialist. Some Because of the state to which the Government time later, the patient suffered adverse effects has reduced the system, because of the from the illness and ended up suing the paralysis that has been caused by the regional doctor. The doctor was held responsible and health authority system, a large number of not the patient. So it would appear that under 8 June 1995 12276 Legislative Assembly this definition the doctor not only has a duty of have 28 days in which to reply to a writ. care in the way he treats the person but also, Hopefully, the amendment contained in this according to this court ruling, a duty of care to Bill that will provide for a reliance on policy will ensure that the person goes to see the circumvent that delay. It is wrong for people to specialist that the doctor has recommended. be at the mercy of delays within the Crown law I have referred to a large extent to office. By supporting this Bill, we hope to assist negligence and people being indemnified the litigation process. As part of the Act, against negligence provided that they have section 3.35 took precedence over policy. That been acting in the best interests of the patient. section has to be removed so that policy can My concern is also about the negligence of once again be at the forefront in determining this Government in some of the actions that it whether someone will have adequate has taken. I would like to specify one in indemnity in a particular case. particular: the gynaecology ward of the PA In conclusion, we support this Bill. Hospital. That hospital had one of the best However, we will not let it pass without bringing gynaecology wards in the State. This to the notice of this House the six constant Government is always talking about what it years of failure that we have seen under this does for women's health—putting posters on Goss Government. Health has now received the wall, and all the other things that it does. record increases in funding. The people of However, when it comes to real things, the Queensland have now woken up to the gynaecology ward—which was one of the best Government. There is seething discontent in the State—was closed down and those among the staff. The wheels are falling off the beds dispersed throughout the rest of the Goss machine. Everybody knows that now. hospital into the ear, nose and throat ward, They do not believe in the Government any the renal ward and so forth. As a result, that more. The Government cannot keep throwing hospital lost some of the best nursing staff it money at a problem and think that people will had—good nurses, experienced in the area of believe it when it says that that will fix the gynaecology. Since then, I understand that problem. People believed the Goss the hospital's post-operative infection rate for Government for two or three years, but they gynaecology has doubled. That is the sort of have stopped believing it now. People now result that we have from the mismanagement treat promises of funding increases as a joke. of and poor planning for our public hospital The say, "Here is another couple of hundred system by this Government. It all comes back million—another promise." to regionalisation and senior executive staff The Opposition is pointing out the who have no idea of the health system, no shortcomings in the system. We are saying, idea of the Queensland system, no idea of "Jump", and the Government is asking, "How how the system ran or how it should run and high?" It is Government by remote control. no idea of the decentralised system. The However, once we get into Government, we system is being clogged up with all of these will fix up the system, offer a decent service additional layers of bureaucracy—13 and value for money. We will provide a service centralised bureaucratic empires and a total that is decentralised, community based and paralysis in decision making. one which operates at the direction of the The Opposition's plan provides for people. People no longer believe the decentralisation. It provides for community- Government's promises of more money. They based direction and strategic planning. The have been hearing the same promises for the Opposition's plan will see that Health gets on past six years. Record amounts are now being with the job and that millions of dollars are spent. What do we see? An even bigger saved. Those millions of dollars could be used health crisis! to provide the service. The Opposition is about The front-line health services such as providing the service, not plan after plan after accident and emergency and intensive care plan, or conference after conference, or review have been neglected. For example, people after review. We will spend every dollar we can can no longer obtain a bed in the biggest to put beds back into the system and employ hospital in the State. That is the real crux of staff to get the job done so that people can the problem. That is the basis on which people once again have confidence in the health will pass judgment on the Government. I refer system. to the people on the north side who can no One of the problems is the time taken by longer be admitted to their hospital. There is the Crown law office to make decisions on hardly a person in Queensland who does not litigated matters. I understand that it has taken know someone who has had an operation up to six months to decide whether jurisdiction cancelled. There is hardly a person in applies in these cases, whereas employees Queensland who does not talk to nursing staff Legislative Assembly 12277 8 June 1995 and who does not know about the problems of clerical duties and free those medical experts the health system, including the interference in to spend more time with their patients and and the cost of the regional bureaucracy. their clinical work. I also lobbied for computers There is hardly a person in Queensland who to allow research data collection and improved does not know someone who has not been recordings—something that was made able to be admitted to hospital. We will restore impossible by the hypocrites opposite. A confidence in the system and give senior intensive care specialist told me that in Queenslanders back the great health system 1989, in order to gain access to a basic that they had under the previous coalition computer for his research and patient Government. People know that that is what monitoring, he had to prostitute himself to a they will get under a coalition Government. drug company when his research may end up Mrs EDMOND (Mount Coot-tha) recommending against the use of that drug (4.05 p.m.): I have to admit that I do not company's product. What a position in which understand the real need for this amendment. to place a researcher and senior medical It really does not change anything at all in practitioner! That is the sort of ethical dilemma terms of indemnity cover and offers no change that Opposition members want to go back to. to the existing conditions for indemnity. They want to go back to the bad old days However, I do accept that this amendment is a when senior medics and researchers had to goodwill gesture to the AMA, which voiced beg, steal or borrow the equipment they concerns and reservations about Government needed for their daily office work. legal opinions on this matter. I am a great I am proud of the fact that these needs believer in the line that, if it harms no-one, it have been recognised, in spite of the costs nothing and it makes someone happy, Opposition's constant harping opposition to then why not do it. Certainly the amendment providing researchers and medical staff with will make the medical defence organisations administrative assistance and necessary office happy. They are the ones who stand to gain equipment. I reject the Opposition's constant the most from this amendment. criticism. This recognition was needed and However, I am concerned that the welcome. The community of Queensland has previous speaker in the debate on this Bill grown used to the constant negative harping seemed to be advocating that we should of the Opposition. Not once have we heard remove the onus for health professions not to mention of a positive policy. All we hear is be negligent. That really is going too far in whingeing, harping and negative moaning. I kowtowing to his mates in the AMA and the am disappointed in the member for medical defence organisation. It throws into Toowoomba South, who seemed a decent question the integrity of every public hospital chap when he came into Parliament. However, professional at every level—technicians, at that time he was a new boy in the National nurses, doctors and so on. As a health Party. And, boy, how a few years have professional who maintains private changed him! At that stage, he was just a new professional indemnity insurance, that Johnny in the National Party. statement seriously concerns me—as it should The Opposition has consistently tried to concern all health workers—because of the beat up the number of so-called bureaucrats implications of cost rises in the future. by simplistically adding the number that it had There were other matters that the when it was in Government to any number member for Toowoomba South raised that I that it thinks might be in the regions. What the must comment on. He spoke about the Opposition has never accepted, and what it increased numbers in administration. I have does not like to hear, is that during lobbied persistently for administrative regionalisation we moved hundreds of assistance for medical and technological staff. administrative positions out of central office in While members opposite wallow in ignorance Brisbane and into the regions, that is, into the about health workings, I believed—and I still country towns. We thought that the Opposition do—that it was ridiculous to see senior medical would welcome that move. Now the members officers and researchers and technologists opposite want to send these administrators making appointments and fiddling around and their families back to Brisbane. For the life typing reports with two fingers on aged of me, I cannot understand their logic. I typewriters. Surely that was not their role. I thought that the Opposition would have believed then, and I believe now, that it was a supported the idea of having a greater say, ridiculous waste of resources and expertise. more control and easier access to health I lobbied strongly for an increased number workers in the regions close to the medical of administrative assistants to perform these coalface. But what is the reality? 8 June 1995 12278 Legislative Assembly

There are now 550 administrators in that they can now access those very services central office—just over half the number there through the public system. Services that were in 1989, when there were 994. Back previously were not available under the public then, everything, including stethoscopes and health system are now available. The public toilet paper, had to be ordered through central system now offers CAT scans and cardiac office. There are now 216 administrators in the scans. Those procedures are now performed regions. Even members opposite should be just as well in the public health system as they able to see that there has been a 20 per cent are in the private health system. cut overall. As I said, I cannot for the life of me Members opposite ask why people are understand how the so-called party of the waiting. I inform them that people wait in the bush can turn its back on the bush and want private system, too. My mother had to have a to return to the old days of running everything cataract removed. She would have had to wait from Brisbane. 12 months under the public system. On the Under the former Government, an other hand, she would have had to wait 10 application had to be sent up the ladder months under the private system, and she through 25 layers of bureaucracy to central would have had to pay through the nose for it. office and one had to wait for a week or a All those unquantified add-ons for a procedure month for the answer to come back. Nothing that Fred Hollows could have performed for could be done without going through that $3! My medical friends always advise me that process. There could not be a change to the if people are having their haemorrhoids way in which appointments were made or the repaired or an ingrown toenail removed, they way in which materials were ordered without it should go to a private hospital; that if it is taking two months, three months or a year for anything more serious, people should go to a the decision to come back from central office. public hospital—and that has never been A Government member interjected. truer. But what about the waiting lists? There Mrs EDMOND: Tell me about it. I had to are waiting lists. There always have been live with that system. The Opposition knows waiting lists. If members opposite did not know that it is turning its back on the people in the about them before, that was because bush. It is doing that because of its pig- management was so poor that it did not have headed opposition for the sake of opposition. a clue that they existed. They were there, all It does not know what else to do, so it right! Cancer patients had to wait six months opposes everything that the Government to have a bone scan at the Royal Brisbane does. Hospital, even though they were meant to be The previous speaker raved on about a having three-monthly check-ups. There will health system in crisis. I accept that part of the always be waiting lists for elective surgery, but health system is in crisis, and it largely affects I have not met one person with an urgent or the prime constituency and the major serious medical condition who was not treated supporters of members opposite. The system in the appropriate time frame and who was that is witnessing an exodus that is creating less than delighted with the care that he or problems is the private health sector. This is she received. Every time that Mr Horan makes due to the increased recognition of members a statement in a newspaper, people become of the community that the care, service and very upset and ring me up saying, "How dare quality of health in the public health system in that man! I was in such-and-such hospital, and Queensland is every bit as good as that in the the care they gave me was outstanding." private sector. That is where the crisis is. Those people do not know why the member Obviously, members opposite are not talking for Toowoomba South persists in attacking the to some of the people in the health insurance professional staff in the public health system. business, or they would be aware of that fact. What people do know is that the member for People in the health insurance business are Toowoomba South is a political opportunist. concerned, because the number of privately Many of the people now on waiting lists insured people is dropping to non-viable are waiting for procedures that were not even levels. performed in public hospitals before 1989. When one asks people why they are Now such procedures are commonplace. In dropping out of private health insurance, they 1989, only 20 angioplasties a year were say that it is because specialist fees are totally performed. We now hear screams of unpredictable; they are often many times the complaint when the number performed at one recommended fee. These factors plus all the hospital is reduced to 20 a week! Most lengthy add-ons leave patients with no idea of how waiting times are a result of specialist much out of pocket they will be. People know shortages. Legislative Assembly 12279 8 June 1995

Mr Nunn: Who controls the number of Government, and no-one complained publicly specialists? because to do so meant instant dismissal. Of Mrs EDMOND: That is a good point. course, nurses, technologists and doctors did The numbers of specialists coming through is not march on Parliament House, because that controlled by the colleges. There is a strong was not allowed; the Government of the day vested interest in keeping the number of would set the police on people! We all specialists down and maintaining a shortage in remember how people were bashed in the Queensland and Australia. Of course, the sixties and seventies if they dared to march in existing specialists do not want anyone the streets. We did not see doctors coming in from overseas, because that just participating in rallies outside hospitals, might reduce their incomes to only half a because that would have meant that the million a year! But that is a side issue. The police would be called in and they would all be lengthy waiting times are a result of specialist sacked or bashed. That type of activity was shortages, and we as a Government are totally illegal. introducing new packages to address that. But Mrs McCauley: Rubbish! waiting times occur also in the private system Mrs EDMOND: The member should for that very reason. refer to history and read about this matter. The one thing that sticks in my throat People could not voice their dissent; it was more than anything else is the claim that, illegal. under the National Party Government, When members opposite hear of this Queensland Health was more efficient. It was Government's economic good news, they try not; it was just cheaper. It was cheaper to claim all the credit on the grounds that they because it was 20 years behind the other were in Government for 32 years. But when States in terms of services. It was cheaper members opposite hear about the problems in because it paid its workers peanuts. I know; I the health system that resulted from their 32 was there. When I went back to work in years in power they say, "But the Labor Queensland in 1984, I was paid $100 a week Government has been there for five years. It less than I had been earning in Victoria in should have fixed all of that. It would only take 1979. Nurses, technologists, doctors— a few billion dollars." Why five years? Why not everybody in the system was treated with five months! Members opposite claim that, in contempt and paid contemptuously. The five years, this Government should have equipment was decrepit. How could health magically rebuilt, modernised and re-equipped workers seriously do a cardiac scan on our hospitals to the tune of a couple of billion 20-year-old equipment that could not even dollars—wave a magic wand, why don't you? find the bleeding heart? The equipment was absolutely rotten. Most of the diagnostic It will take us at least a decade to recover equipment in the major teaching hospitals in from the malaise of underfunding of several 1984 was at least 20 years older than decades. However, we are prepared to do it, anything that I had ever seen in Victoria. I kid and we are committed to doing it. We have you not! accepted the challenge. We have provided funding, and we have now started rebuilding When I was a student in the sixties, wards and re-equipping our hospitals. But people do and buildings at the RBH were condemned, not have to take my word for all of this; they but when I came back in 1984 they were still should take the word of another former health there; they were still crammed full with patients professional: the Deputy Leader of the out on verandahs, and they had not even Coalition, the leader of the Liberal cluster, the been painted in those 30 years. The biggest member for Caloundra. She worked at the cockroaches I have ever seen crawled out of coalface, and she should know. As Mrs the cracks in the plaster. Yes, the most Sheldon so aptly put it on Cairns radio last wonderful staff that I have ever met put up year— with that. I still remember the gruesome sight of the neurological wards: old iron beds with "The Labor Government knew in patients crammed out on old verandahs. It 1989 that the health system was in crisis was a case of Florence Nightingale, bring back and that they had to deal with it." your lamp! But still there were those dedicated I repeat that last year Mrs Sheldon said— staff who made the difference. "The Labor Government knew in At repeated intervals, there was talk of 1989 that the health system was in crisis bombing the whole site and rebuilding the and that they had to deal with it." RBH, but the quotes of hundreds of millions of That is true. We knew—just as Mrs Sheldon dollars scared off the National Party knew—that the Queensland health system 8 June 1995 12280 Legislative Assembly was in crisis in 1989. It is now in recovery, but meetings to find out what specialist it needs careful nurturing and monitoring for services we would like. some time yet before being fully cured. Its . . . prognosis is excellent, as long as it is not reinfected by members opposite. On the other hand here am I, and other doctors like me, who are willing, able Mrs McCAULEY (Callide) (4.20 p.m.): and qualified to perform these services for That could well be the last speech made by the patients of our areas and find out that the member for Mount Coot-tha in this House. the Health Authority will not indemnify us All I can say is hallelujah for that. The issue of to do so." indemnity for professional people in Queensland's hospital system was first raised At the end of last year, Dr West refused to by Dr Alan West of Mundubbera, which is in deliver any more babies unless he was my electorate. I am rather surprised that the professionally and fully indemnified by the member for Mount Coot-tha said that she felt Wide Bay Regional Health Authority. He was that this was unnecessary, because in a letter supported by the Rural Doctors Association. In to the Regional Director of the Wide Bay relation to that, Dr Shane Sondergeld said— Health Region, Dr West said— "Queensland Health's approach was "The type of indemnity that is 'absolute false economy' as the currently provided by Queensland Health astronomical cost of transporting patients is as I am sure you are aware totally to hospitals where doctors were fully unacceptable. It appears that indemnified and would treat them far Queensland now is the only state in outweighed what it would cost to meet the Australia that does not fully indemnify cost of indemnifying the state's privately their Medical Personnel when dealing with practising medical superintendents. public patients." It was also discriminatory, as it could Dr West is the only doctor in that town. He mean mothers being denied 'the thrill of is the hospital doctor, but he has the right of having their children in their own private practice. He services a huge area. community.' " Babies are not delivered in Gayndah, I was pleased to see that the Rural Doctors Biggenden or Eidsvold, so mothers go to Dr Association backed Dr West on this matter. West in Mundubbera to have him deliver their babies. If they did not go to Mundubbera, they However, I was very disappointed at the would have to go to Maryborough or response from Paul Kelly, who is the Regional Bundaberg, which would take them a long way Director of the Wide Bay Health Authority. away from their families. At least Mundubbera When talking about the indemnity policy in a is not that far away from those other towns. It letter in the paper, he stated— is only half an hour or so from Gayndah and a "The policy will provide certainty that bit further from Biggenden and Eidsvold. The when a doctor, including Dr West, service that Dr West has provided and still endeavours diligently and conscientiously provides to that area is excellent. to carry out public duties on behalf of the The member for Mount Coot-tha had a lot Regional Health Authority, they will have to say about the services to the bush. We are indemnity cover." pretty basic in the bush; all we want are a few I also believe from reading Dr West's letters doctors and a few nurses. All that we ask for is that Paul Kelly tried very hard to shut Dr West some service. We do not want to be fancy; we up, even to the extent of probably saying, just want some doctors and nurses. All we "Your job is on the line if you do not keep want is some fairly basic facilities, and we are quiet." That did not solve the matter, and I am not getting them. When we get doctors such pleased that Dr West continued to mention as Dr West who are prepared to come to the this matter and continued to keep the country to practise obstetrics, the Government pressure up. I am pleased that this matter is will not professionally indemnify them. That is finally being rectified, despite the fact that the what this Government is like. member for Mount Coot-tha believes that it is I think it is important that Dr West unnecessary. It is necessary. If only one continues to deliver babies in Mundubbera, doctor in country Queensland thinks it is and obviously the people in that area think so necessary—and babies will not be delivered as well. In fact, in one article in the local unless things change—then I am pleased to newspaper, Dr West said— welcome this change. "On the one hand Queensland We have a crisis as regards getting Health is conducting surveys and holding medical practitioners out into the country. In Legislative Assembly 12281 8 June 1995 the last six months, Biloela has lost a doctor in Mr BENNETT: I rise to a point of order. I private practice and we cannot get a take offence at those remarks. The fact is that replacement. That doctor was in private I advised the doctor to go to the Central practice. One partner has been gone for six Regional Health Authority because it would months. Biloela is a nice little town. It has have the resources to find those figures and twice-daily air flights to Brisbane, it is only an information for him. hour and a half from the coast and it is in a Mrs McCAULEY: The member for good position. If it were not for the drought, it Gladstone did indeed advise the doctor to go would be a fairly stable and reasonably to the Central Regional Health Authority, but wealthy community, but we cannot get the he said, "Don't send me any more of those extra doctor that we need. What will we have stupid letters." What a disgrace that is! This is to do to get doctors into country areas? There are three doctors in Biloela, but we want and the man who wants to get elected at the next need a fourth one because those doctors election. He said, "Tell him not to send me any cover a very large area. I asked one of those more stupid letters." The doctor is entitled to doctors why there was little or no response to ask questions, and it is the elected member's the advertisement in the paper for the responsibility to answer those queries. If the additional doctor, and he simply said, "The member is too stupid to answer those queries figures are not there; they are not making the himself, he should pass them on to the money." That issue needs to be addressed. Central Regional Health Authority. He is just This situation will only get worse before it gets being extremely lazy and taking his money for better. doing nothing. He is saying, "It is not my problem; I cannot do anything about it." Biloela is not entirely without the services of doctors, obviously, but the lack of doctors However, that member is very quick to puts more pressure on the doctors who are send letters with his photo and a photo of the there servicing the people who are sick. I have Premier next to him to the people of given up trying to go to my doctor. I do not get Gladstone saying, "Vote for me." He is sick any more. People simply cannot get in to hanging on to his coat-tails fast and tight. If see their doctors in under seven weeks, even Elizabeth Cunningham runs against him, he is if they are desperately ill. That is simply not gone. I will answer the doctor's queries good enough. That is what is happening in because they are simple queries and they Biloela, and it will only get worse. deserve an answer. They are legitimate queries. Any decent elected member would do An honourable member interjected. a bit of legwork and find out the answers and Mrs McCAULEY: People raise these get them back to the doctor. He may even concerns with their elected members. I want to vote for the member if he had done that, but raise a matter that was brought to my not now. attention by a doctor in the Gladstone Mr Bennett: He never would have voted community who was also a member of the for me anyhow. hospital board when it was in existence. That doctor wrote to his local member—the Mrs McCAULEY: The member does member for Gladstone—with a couple of not know that. queries, one of which was about aerial Another constituent of mine has a transfers of patients from Tannum Sands up problem that I would like to raise. This to Rockhampton. This doctor believes that the constituent wrote to the Minister for Health to three transfers involved in that process are raise the plight of a neighbour of his who is unnecessary when a trip to Rockhampton by unable to afford private hospital cover. She ambulance would be almost as fast as was diagnosed in August last year as having transporting patients to the airport, changing gallstones which needed surgery in over, putting them in the aerial ambulance, Rockhampton. Anyone who has suffered from taking them to Rockhampton and having gallstones would know that it is an extremely another ambulance meet them there, etc. painful condition. It causes probably one of That doctor asked a question about those the worst sorts of pain. This woman was told to transfers and he also asked about the number expect her surgery within approximately two of extra public servants in the Health months of diagnosis. Since that time, she has Department. The local member's response been advised of a date for her operation three was to ring the doctor's receptionist and say, times, but each time it has been cancelled at "Tell the doctor not to send any more of those the last minute. The last occasion she was stupid letters." That is a really good response scheduled to have an operation was 23 May. from the elected member to a doctor who has Her condition has been accompanied by genuine queries! illness and severe pain, sometimes 8 June 1995 12282 Legislative Assembly necessitating visits to the local hospital for hospitals and in community facilities near pethidine injections. She is 40 kilometres out where they live. Some of the key initiatives in of town. She has been on a very restricted diet the package released by the Minister a couple and has lost a great deal of weight. of weeks ago include: $64m to attack the Through all this, that woman has been waiting lists in Queensland hospitals; $40m to uncomplaining and stoic, as must be many in accelerate the Metropolitan Hospital this unfortunate condition. Her husband, Rebuilding Program; $35m for re-equipping our hospitals—my colleague the member for waiting 16 months for an arthroscopy for a Mount Coot-tha has explained some of the very painful knee condition, is in a similar pathetically old and dilapidated equipment situation. These are public patients who that she had to put up with when she worked cannot get the attention that they need. I think in Queensland Health—and $10m to improve that is very sad. While I welcome this the pay and conditions of the medical work legislation, the Labor Party members can yell force. until they are blue in the face: they have lost it in health, and they will not convince people The Queensland health system is growing that the system is better now than it was in our quickly to cater for the increasing population day. growth in the State. As a result, $50m in growth funds have been allocated in this Mr T. B. SULLIVAN (Chermside) Budget for new commissionings, service (4.31 p.m.): I rise to support the legislation enhancements and expansions. Over the past before the House. This Bill is about litigation couple of years, this Government has and about removing impediments so as to commissioned several major health care encourage recruitment into hospitals, and in facilities to provide new services to regional particular into rural hospitals. Even the Queensland. The Townsville Hospital cardiac Opposition spokesperson on Health confirms unit, the development of Stage 3A of the this. This Bill is also about valuing the Logan Hospital, the obstetric beds, neonatal employees of Queensland Health. cots, day surgery and radiology oncology Mr Horan has claimed that the problems services at the Townsville Hospital, and block 6 faced by staff in public hospitals are due to and day surgery at the Nambour Hospital are negligence on the part of this Government. I but some of them. The Budget has also paid can demonstrate to Mr Horan that this special attention to nurses, something the Government has brought some wage justice National Party did not do. It provides $6m to back into the health system and has help with the transition to the work force of systematically increased the Health budget to newly graduated registered nurses. It will also $2.7 billion, an increase of 60 per cent on the fund a re-entry program for registered nurses last Liberal/National Party Health Budget. The who want to rejoin the nursing work force. Goss Labor Government has embarked on a Mr FITZGERALD: I rise to a point of large capital works program to rebuild the order. Under Standing Order 120, members hospitals which the Nationals and Liberals cannot talk about the programs in the Budget. allowed to decay. This Government provides Members can talk about financial matters, but funding to treat some 3,000 patients a week to debate Budget items is against Standing more than when last the Liberal and National Orders because we have a Budget before the Parties held power. It was a Labor House. This debate was started before the Government under Ned Hanlon which Budget was introduced. established this health system and the Goss Mr ELDER: I rise to a point of order. I Government has rebuilt it from the ruins in disagree with that particular point of order. The which it was left. fact is that the sums mentioned here were Next year's Health budget will provide a those announced prior to the Budget. record $2.7 billion. The fact that Health is the Mr FITZGERALD: He is talking about biggest spending item in the Budget shows programs. the priority this Government has placed on the health system. Under Labor, Queensland Mr ELDER: No, he was talking about Health has treated 620,000 people in the past the actual funding in the package announced year. That is well up from the 470,000 patients prior to the Budget. treated at the end of the 1980s under the Mr SPEAKER: Order! Members will National Party Government. Clearly, more and refrain from talking about Budget items in the more Queenslanders who need medical form they appear in the Budget, but certainly treatment are getting it. Increased funding is administration and general programs can be leading to people receiving treatment in spoken about. Legislative Assembly 12283 8 June 1995

Mr T. B. SULLIVAN: Certainly. If the Toowoomba Hospital are undergoing member for Lockyer had heard me correctly— redevelopment—we have not ignored the and because there was a bit of noise to his left electorate of the Opposition spokesperson, Mr he might not have—he would realise that the Horan. If the need is there, the Government Skills Acquisition Program is not a Budget will fund it. We have plans to redevelop the program item. It is an Education program, not Townsville Hospital and refurbish the Mount a Budget program item. Isa Hospital, the Cooktown Community Health The Capital Works Program announced Centre, the Thursday Island Community some time ago provides a massive $1.5 billion Health Centre and the Aurukun Primary Health over 10 years. This is the largest project of its Care Centre, which will be similar to centres on type ever seen in Queensland, and possibly in Badu Island, Boigu Island and Horn Island Australia. The $1.5 billion will average about and at Injinoo, Kowanyama, Lockhart River, $150m per year, which will mean employment Mapoon, Napranum, Pormpuraaw and Wujal and growth in the building industry in Wujal. The Gold Coast Hospital will be Queensland, as well as improvements to the redeveloped, as will the southern Gold Coast dilapidated hospital system we inherited from community health centre and general clinic, the National Party. In the last year of the the Bundaberg and Maryborough National Party Government a mere $35m was development and the new Hervey Bay spent on capital works. No wonder so much is Hospital. This is not a comprehensive list of needed to rebuild our hospitals. the work that is under way or planned. I wish to place on record some of the Citizens of Queensland will note that projects that are included in the hospital money is being spent in all electorates and in rebuilding scheme announced some time ago. all parts of Queensland, and we are largely The Royal Brisbane Hospital Psychiatric Unit is targeting the growth areas or the areas where to be completed at the end of this year at an there has to be a major redevelopment all-up cost of about $17.87m. At question time because of a dilapidated site or facilities and today the Premier invited members opposite where there is an area of great need. Some of to drive along Bowen Bridge Road or Gilchrist those areas of greatest need are the result of Avenue and cast their eyes over the grounds the gross neglect of the former National and of the hospital in order to see some of the Liberal Health Ministers. massive structures that are being built there. Unlike the National Party, the current The redevelopment of the whole RBH site is Minister will not build a hospital like QE II just one of the biggest shots in the arm that our to save a couple of his mates. Hospitals will be health system will receive. built in Labor electorates because there is In my own electorate, the Winston Noble growth in those areas; there will be hospitals Unit of the Prince Charles Hospital has been built in National or Liberal Party areas because given upgrading funds. A major there is growth in those areas or because redevelopment program has been there is need in those areas. Those are the implemented for Jacaranda House, which correct criteria that should be followed and are treats the frail aged. Both projects have been being followed by this Health Minister and this long needed and are most welcome Government. improvements in the local area. I would like to touch on the Opposition's At the Princess Alexandra Hospital, a continuing claims of Budget cuts, major refurbishment and upgrade of the administrative blow-outs and hospital neglect. laundry is taking place, and prior to the Budget Opposition members need to be exposed for the Minister announced a $5.5m what they are. Mr Horan and some of his redevelopment of the accident and counterparts are just using scaremongering emergency unit. There will also be major tactics. The Opposition's figures are repeatedly redevelopment of the campus at the Princess based on a fairytale. Again and again they Alexandra Hospital. Stage 3A of the Logan wave around mythical figures, doing nothing Hospital will hopefully be completed in July but scaring people—especially the elderly, who 1995 at a cost of $6.5m. are the group most in need of treatment. In the regional areas, the Hospital Let us consider the Opposition's claims Rebuilding Program will provide funding to the that, because of Budget overruns, over Easter Rockhampton and Mackay Community Health the Mater Mothers Hospital was going to turn Centres and the Rockhampton Psychiatric away expectant mothers and that the Mater Unit. There will be a $70m redevelopment of adult hospital would be closing down all the Cairns and Barcaldine Hospitals. The services, including its accident and emergency Toowoomba Community Health Centre and centre. The Opposition has also claimed that 8 June 1995 12284 Legislative Assembly this Government is closing various country the regions would probably mean a return to hospitals. All those claims promulgated by the hospital boards and the associated costs of Opposition, especially the Opposition's Health administration. We would see a return of the spokesperson, Mr Horan, are false. In recent infamous "rob Peter to pay Paul" principle, weeks during question time, the Minister for which was so well entrenched in previous Health, Mr Elder, has exposed those false National Governments. claims one by one. It is amusing that the only Health policy Government backbenchers have been that honourable members opposite seem to interested to note that Mr Horan has not been have is that of opposing regionalisation. Not on his feet as much in this House in recent even that policy could be agreed upon by all days. I believe there are two main reasons for sections of the Opposition. I believe that some that: that Mr Elder was exposing Mr Horan's National Party candidates for the next election false claims for what they were—just false are actually applying to serve on regional claims—and perhaps Mr Borbidge is also a bit health authorities, which Mr Borbidge and Mr envious that Mr Horan has been getting too Horan claim they would get rid of. much coverage and does not want a Mr Bredhauer interjected. challenge to his leadership to occur too soon. For whatever reason, it is obvious that those Mr T. B. SULLIVAN: I am informed by claims are false, and the Health Minister has the member for Cook that the National Party exposed them as such. candidates for Cook and Mulgrave have applied to those regional health authorities Claims by Opposition members that they because they recognise what a good job they would be more lean or more efficient are just are doing. absurd. Already, the vast bulk of the Queensland Health budget is spent where it Mr Bredhauer: They know what a good should be, that is, on staff who are involved in system it is. service delivery. Only 2.3 per cent, or $55.3m, Mr T. B. SULLIVAN: I would suggest of the total $2.4 billion will be spent this year that the good people of the Cook electorate on corporate services for all 13 regional offices and other parts of regional Queensland would and central office. In 1995-96, that percentage much prefer to have decision makers based in will be even lower; less than 2.3 per cent will Cairns who know the region than to have be spent on corporate services, yet Mr Horan people based in Charlotte Street. and other Opposition members tell the old untruth that extra Health funding is simply Mr Bredhauer: Most certainly; and I think it is instructive that even someone from going into Health bureaucracy. That is not Einasleigh would apply. true, the figures show that it is not true, and the funding proves that it is not true. Only Mr T. B. SULLIVAN: I have been about 1.7 per cent of all Health staff are fortunate to travel with the Public Works located in the corporate services stream. Committee and the Minister's health Perhaps Opposition members would like to committee to visit some of the dilapidated and make doctors do their own typing, as they had run-down facilities in the Cape area. I was to do in the past on old manual typewriters, or extremely impressed by the local knowledge of they might want nurses to make up their own people on the regional health authority and pay cheques instead of having qualified their relationship with people in the local area. people in the office do that, or perhaps they It is very impressive to see that rapport which would want the kitchen staff to double up as is so obvious. Mr Horan would get rid of that; hospital budget accountants. Their claims are he would have much more central planning in patently absurd and have been shown to be Brisbane and then set up the old mishmash of such. hospital boards, which is not cost effective and The Opposition's claims that there is leads to poor planning. excess fat in the regional office also need to Mr Horan has also claimed that there has be exposed for what they are: just empty been an increase of some 400 people in the rhetoric. In 1994, the total funding for regional central office. He is wrong, and his claims are health authority officers was $21.5m, which misleading. The fact is that since 1991, the was equal to about 1.2 per cent of the region's establishment of 389 positions has increased 1993-94 expenditure or less than 1 per cent of by 144 temporary staff of whom 66, or 46 per the total Queensland Health budget. That cent, are Commonwealth-funded positions figure includes the full costs of salaries, leases, allocated to coordinate a range of special travel, regional health authority meetings and purpose payments such as cancer screening other expenses. What is more, the and Medicare initiatives. The remaining 78 Opposition's plan to reduce the bureaucracy in State-funded positions are for the Legislative Assembly 12285 8 June 1995 implementation of new initiatives, including the National Party's figures at face value, the introduction of casemix, cancer prevention number of patients treated per bed was 32.9. data collection, the prevention of violence Under this Government's more accurate against women and an aged-care healthy recording of bed numbers, we find that the living program. The Queensland health system number of patients treated per bed is now is an efficient and lean machine delivering 59.8—almost double. These figures put our health services to more people when and hospitalisation rates among the best in the where they need it. world; so let us end this nonsense about bed The only other point I would like to take numbers being the yardstick of performance. up in relation to what Mr Horan has said in this Let me make something perfectly clear to House over the last few months is what he has the House so that Mr Horan will no longer be said about bed numbers. Mr Horan seems able to continue making deliberately false preoccupied with counting beds as the claims about this Government believing that measure of a good health system rather than bed numbers are unimportant. This the more obvious criterion of the number of Government believes that bed numbers are patients treated and the quality of care that is important. However, it is also important that provided. those beds are used efficiently and located Just last Friday, in my electorate, I was close to the people who need them. To privileged to attend a function at the Prince illustrate this latter point, I refer to my Charles Hospital to celebrate the one- electorate, which has one of the highest hundredth heart transplant at that world- percentages of people aged over 60 and a renowned facility. There were over 70 people large percentage of World War II veterans. It at that function who are now healthy and alive makes no sense that previously they had to because they have received hearts go to Greenslopes or RBH for treatment. They transplanted from other persons. The skills of would much prefer to go to an expanded the hospital staff—administrative, medical and community hospital at Prince Charles, just nursing skills—were recognised by one of the down the road from where they live, and under heart recipients who spoke at that function. this Health Minister they will be getting it. Under this Health Minister efficiency has been I was privileged to hear that that young brought back to the health system, which is man was someone I had taught when he was providing health services to people when and a 13-year-old in the early seventies. He was where they need it. I support the Bill. there with his family, and he was alive and well because of the health-care system in Hon. V. P. LESTER (Keppel) Queensland—the very system that Mr Horan (4.51 p.m.): I compliment the efforts of all of wants to knock, and the very system in which our health workers in the central Queensland he seeks to find every single mistake that he region. They have an extraordinarily difficult can. He will not stand up in this House and job to do. Any job dealing with health matters say, "Isn't it great that we have now had 109 is never easy, and quite often many of those heart transplants at the Prince Charles workers do things that are well beyond the call Hospital? Isn't it great that we have some of of duty and they do not complain about it. the greatest lung and chest transplant Our daughter Mary-Ann gave birth to surgeons in the world based in this very city?" three children in the private section of the No, he does not want to say that. He does not Rockhampton Base Hospital, one during the want to proudly proclaim the strengths within term of the previous Government and two our health-care system; Mr Horan, Mr during the term of this Government. The care Borbidge, Mrs Sheldon and their ilk simply that she was given was absolutely want to point out its faults. This Government is outstanding. I have had many dealings with all investing in the future by making the hard of the hospitals in my area—the private ones decisions today, and it will continue to do so. and, of course, the base hospital—and every It is easy for the Nationals to boast about effort is made to assist people. the number of beds in Queensland in 1989. However, today I highlight the case of They say they had 12,019 beds, but we must young David Perfect. He is a child who has remember that they counted all the beds, spina bifida. Until recently, David and his because the beds were classified as mother were always given plane fares to travel registered, even though they were unfunded. to Brisbane to visit a specialist, because such That simply means that they were unstaffed specialists are not available in Rockhampton. and, therefore, had no patients in On the last occasion that David needed to them—somewhat reminiscent of a Yes, travel to Brisbane, it was decided that he and Minister scenario. Even if we accept the his mother would have to travel by train or bus. 8 June 1995 12286 Legislative Assembly

During the course of that trip, this young child, part of an overall package of reforms that is who is still in nappies, would have had to go to being criticised constantly by those opposite. the toilet no less than 14 times. A classic "knock, knock" joke is doing the Ultimately, I was able to persuade two rounds of the primary schools in my electorate private citizens to pay the airfares for David at the moment. It goes like this: "Knock, and his mother. In Brisbane, Dr Shephard knock. Who's there?" The answer is: "The diagnosed blisters on David's feet, and that Queensland coalition." Even the primary child has now been in a wheelchair for six school children in my electorate know that all weeks. Dr Shepherd is quite angry that David the members of the Opposition want to do is was not automatically sent to Brisbane on the knock. All we hear from them is, "Knock, plane, because it would have been awful for knock." him to travel by train. I do not want to blow this Mr Elder interjected. up into a big issue. I simply ask the Health Minister to reconsider his case and refund the Mr FENLON: It is still the Queensland amount of those fares to the people who paid coalition. The Queensland Opposition is them. When the mother discovered that running a very low-budget election campaign. David's condition was very poor, she had to It is so low that it is a campaign without policies. They have saved a lot of money: they return to Rockhampton and then travel back to have not had to print paper; they have not Brisbane. David's family does not have an had to spend money on policy development. It enormous amount of money; they are a good is a super low-budget election campaign. All family but they are battling to get by. we get from them is knocking. David will have to continue to travel to In contrast, the Government has policies Brisbane. I would like to ensure that, in the and has set in place reforms which are circumstances, in future he and his mother are sweeping through the system. The Princess provided with plane tickets. I do not think it is Alexandra Hospital is very much a part of reasonable to expect a child in nappies who those reforms. It is one of the two flagships of has to go to the toilet frequently and who has Queensland's public health system, which other medical problems to travel by any provides quality care by excellent doctors, means other than plane. Any other means of nurses and allied health professionals. Those transport is an extraordinary imposition upon hospitals are part of a system which this week him and his mother. It could be argued that will treat 3,000 more patients than were the doctor at the Rockhampton Base Hospital treated in an equivalent week during the reign said that David could travel by train. I have a of the National Party Government. sneaking suspicion that that doctor was put under pressure regarding the cost of airfares Although the Opposition continues a and that it had been suggested that perhaps campaign of running down the health system, too many people were receiving plane fares. scaremongering and telling lies, the fact In my opinion, in his desire to do the right remains that in 1988-89, the last year of the thing, the doctor did not make the right National Party Government, the budget for the decision. That was backed up by the specialist Princess Alexandra Hospital was $131m. In in Brisbane. 1994-95, the budget for that hospital is $187m. That is an increase of more than 40 I do not wish to comment further on this per cent. Again and again, and despite the matter. I simply put before the Parliament a real facts, members of the Opposition seem very deserving case. I would be grateful if the intent on telling the public that they will not Minister would give this matter consideration receive adequate care. I am here to tell the and try to ensure such an occurrence does not Parliament that the Queensland health system happen again. This is a fair dinkum family that provides excellent quality care at all of its does not want to bludge on the system in any facilities. shape or form. I will touch on a couple of more recent Mr FENLON (Greenslopes) (4.55 p.m.): I stories in relation to which members of the rise in support of the Health Services Opposition have been telling lies. One of Amendment Bill 1995. In doing so, I wish to those stories relates to intensive care. compliment the Minister on introducing the Members of the Opposition have made claims legislation before the House in conjunction that cutbacks have been made in the number with the many other reforms that are now of intensive care beds on Brisbane's south sweeping through the Queensland health side. As usual, the Opposition has it wrong. system. This Bill sets out to indemnify Back in 1989, Brisbane's south side had only employees, members and agents of the 30 intensive care beds. Now there are 39. regional health authorities. It is very much a Overall in south-east Queensland, the number Legislative Assembly 12287 8 June 1995 of intensive care beds has risen from 140 in Recently, the Health Action Plan was 1989 to 155. announced. It contains incentives to attract This Government has undertaken a more specialists, including intensivists. That project to plan for future intensive care has been welcomed very much by the users of services on a Statewide basis. The word "plan" these health facilities on the south side. They is a word that members of the Opposition do know that this plan is going to bring in reforms. not seem to understand and with which they In addition, the commitment to a $35m do not seem to be familiar. Every time any of Hospital Specialists Equipment Program will our developments or reforms are mentioned, assist in upgrading hospital services, members of the Opposition respond by particularly in our major teaching hospitals, harping but they offer no response to the while the commitment to an additional $40m fundamental, well-thought-out plans that have for capital works will help accelerate the been put in place in this State. rebuilding of our metropolitan hospitals, particularly the Royal Brisbane Hospital and In response to that planning exercise, this the Princess Alexandra Hospital. Through Government recently announced a $3m consultation with the specialists and in making expansion of services to assist the sickest interstate comparisons, the review also patients in the Royal Brisbane and Princess identified the need for the "step-down" or high- Alexandra Hospitals. The Minister announced dependency beds to ease the burden on the that 10 intensive care "set-down" beds or high- intensive care unit. Consequently, two 10-bed dependency units would be established at units will be established at those hospitals as a each of the two hospitals. On the south side, priority so that patients can be stepped down this will be in addition to the existing 39 beds. from intensive care when their condition allows An additional $3m will be provided in 1995-96 that to occur. The final arrangements for the to employ doctors and nursing staff at the two units will be a matter for regional and units, along with an estimated $1m for hospital management in consultation with the sophisticated patient monitoring equipment specialists. and extra funds for the refurbishment of ward space. Again, the Government is thinking Arrangements also need to be put in ahead and planning for the future—unlike the place to ensure an adequate supply of National Party Government, which let the appropriately trained critical care staff, hospital system run down for all those years. particularly nursing staff. A number of strategies are being considered to attract and These high-dependency beds will relieve retain critical care nursing staff at both the pressure on intensive care. They will hospitals, including an expansion of specialist enable doctors to concentrate on looking after nurse training. Again, the Government is the people who need the most attention. For thinking ahead. Work will commence example, high-dependency beds can be used immediately on plans for the establishment of when a patient has had major surgery that has the two high-dependency units, including gone well, but that patient still needs to be recruitment and minor capital works at both monitored. That monitoring can occur hospitals. Long-term planning for intensive effectively in a high-dependency unit with a care services in Queensland is due for quick transfer if the need arises. These are completion in October, and that will include front-line services for urgent surgery—trauma advice on the projected need for intensivists. cases—and major elective surgery. The increase in demand for both services has The Government has undertaken raised concerns about the current capacity of long-term planning in intensive care and it has the intensive care units of both the Royal increased the number of intensive care beds Brisbane and the Princess Alexandra in Brisbane as well as the number of high- Hospitals. I understand that these issues were dependency beds. In contrast, the Opposition discussed with the hospitals and the can do nothing except panic and follow this specialists and, as a result, a review was Government in whatever it is doing. Its sole undertaken of the two services to identify any policies, and all we have ever heard from immediate action that could be undertaken to Opposition members in terms of health, overcome these issues. consist of them saying that they would do what we are doing. They would follow our A significant concern was the shortage of budget. They are just going to follow along specialists working in intensive care. The with our practices. If they are saying that they intensivists and other staff in the two units are have better ideas and better advice than we under tremendous pressure, particularly at are getting from the specialists and other times of high demand. At the same time, the highly qualified people at our hospitals on how hospitals are having difficulty in attracting staff. to spend this enormously increased 8 June 1995 12288 Legislative Assembly budget—which they never provided when they work is about to take place on that site. Yet were in Government—then they have not Opposition members are still running around revealed that to the Queensland public. I saying that the out-patients is overcrowded suppose that indicates why the Opposition is and that facilities are inadequate. The facilities not prepared to go to the Queensland public have been inadequate and deteriorating for with its policies. Opposition members are many years. The whole hospital needs major frightened to go to the Queensland public with restructuring, and that is why we have the $1.5 policies and to be accountable for what they billion Hospital Rebuilding Program, which say they would do if they were in charge of the members opposite do not like. Mr Horan does Treasury benches of this State. not like it. It is the last thing that he wants to Another area that requires attention is talk about. All he can talk about is his that of accident and emergency. I am very revelation that we have bad facilities at that pleased that, recently, as part of a $5.5m hospital. upgrade of the hospital, the Minister also This Government is committed to the total announced the redevelopment of the accident rebuilding of the Princess Alexandra Hospital. and emergency centre of the Princess However, some parts of the hospital need Alexandra Hospital. Again, all we hear is the upgrading right now, and the accident and harping and the knocking—— emergency section has the most pressing Mrs Edmond: And the whingeing. need. There is very little room in that section, Mr FENLON: And the whingeing and and that creates problems for the doctors who the whining of those members opposite, work there and for the patients who need especially about the accident and emergency urgent attention. This work will allow for a doubling of the area of the accident and section of the PA Hospital. In June 1995, emergency section to 1,500 square metres. Opposition members had a revelation. All of a The Government will also be spending over sudden, they found out that the facilities of the $500,000 on new equipment for the accident accident and intensive care units of the PA and emergency section. That expenditure will Hospital are inadequate, overcrowded and mean more room and better conditions for basically dysfunctional. They have reached both the people who work there and the this amazing revelation. They wheel in here people whom they have to treat. every bad case they can find; it is like the procession of the ghouls. Finally, they have The accident and emergency section is realised that there is a problem with the not the only area in need at the hospital. I accident and emergency unit. Opposition understand that discussions with the medical members seem to be much slower to realise staff about the hospital's further priorities are the fact, as the staff at that hospital now planned. That is the way the Government realise, that there is going to be an enormous manages things in this State—with good upgrade of those facilities. consultation with those involved. The master Mr Horan would not take an interjection planning for the rebuilding of the PA Hospital from me before when I asked him, "What is well under way and the hospital should be about the fact that a major capital injection is rebuilt completely within the next few years. occurring there?" Again, members opposite do not like that. Mr Elder: He's not likely to take one They do not like having the rug pulled out from from you now, either. underneath them. All of a sudden, they have come up with the realisation that there is a Mr FENLON: I take that interjection. He problem at the hospital. They could not come is not interested in continuing this debate, yet up with that realisation when they were in he is supposed to be the Opposition Health office for 32 years. They certainly could not spokesman. The Opposition cannot cope with come up with that realisation when they the fact that major change is afoot at that knocked back the Whitlam money in the early hospital. That redevelopment also involves the 1970s, which was for major redevelopment of expansion of the out-patients section of the our hospital system. At that time, it was clear hospital by 250 square metres. The that those hospitals needed redevelopment, Opposition cannot cope with that initiative yet it took until today for members opposite to either. For the next six months, or however have that revelation—June 1995. long it takes them to have another revelation, Opposition members will be saying that the The rebuilding will be undertaken as part out-patients section is overcrowded and that of the Government's commitment of $1.5 the Government should do something about billion over 10 years to rebuild this State's it. We have the plans in place, and peace is hospitals. A Labor Government established a about to be disturbed because construction free public hospital system in this State. It has Legislative Assembly 12289 8 June 1995 fallen to this Labor Government to restore that important role in servicing the health needs of tradition and to rebuild and re-equip the my constituents. Firstly, I wish to speak about hospitals that have served us all so well. There the QE II Hospital, its history, and, importantly, are further areas of need at the hospital, most what is happening to it. For the record and for notably for equipment. One of the CT the benefit of the member for Toowoomba scanners is nearing the end of its life and it will South, it is important to state what is be replaced soon. Another CT scanner will be happening at that hospital. in place before the middle of next year. At the As we all know, the QE II Hospital was moment, we have some further developments built by the former National Party Government to undertake. However, we need to discuss some 14 years ago and was never fully these further with the medical work force utilised. The Opposition continued to spread because it has the most accurate and current rumours and partake in scaremongering in an views on what is needed. effort to score cheap political points. It is able Substantial reforms are sweeping through to do that by virtue of being a policy-free zone. the Queensland hospital system. I have It is very easy for the Opposition to knock, carp outlined changes that will directly benefit and whinge when it does not have any constituents of my electorate and of policies. electorates on the south side. These changes Mrs Edmond: That's right. It's the only are part of the Government's overall planning. thing to do when you don't have any policies. Today, we saw the same old knee-jerk Mr ROBERTSON: That is right. We saw reactions from members opposite. The a snippet of some of the Opposition's policies member for Toowoomba South carped about in relation to the QE II in last week's Southern the Greenslopes hospital. He cannot yet seem Star. The Opposition has said that it is to understand that decisions about the supply planning great things for the hospital. I of beds to relevant geographical areas are became a bit confused in the debate on now based on sound planning and advice and another Bill held earlier today when I heard the nothing else. Gone are the days when Opposition Treasury spokesperson, Mrs decisions about the location of hospitals and Sheldon, talk about how overtaxed we are and facilities were based on who had the most how a coalition Government would reduce tax. influence and who held the green and gold I am no great mathematician, but it seems to card within the National Party. That system me that if income is reduced and expenditure has been replaced with rational planning, is promised to be increased there will be some which will see good services provided to real financial difficulties. constituents on the south side of Brisbane. Mr Bredhauer: No; put it on the Mr ROBERTSON (Sunnybank) bankcard. (5.13 p.m.): It has turned out to be a long afternoon for the Opposition spokesperson on Mr ROBERTSON: Put it on the Health. Speaker after speaker on this side of bankcard. the House gave the honourable member a bit Mr Elder: Put it on Joan's bankcard. of a lesson in facts—something that is Mr ROBERTSON: But would that not obviously extremely foreign to members on increase debt? As I said, I am no great the other side of the House. mathematician. However, I hope that one day Mr Welford: That doesn't mean that he I will receive a lucid answer to those quite learns anything. simple questions. Mr ROBERTSON: That is unfortunate. Importantly, this Goss Labor Government, The Opposition spokesperson spent some for the first time in the QE II Hospital's history, time outside the Chamber earlier. I thought will make full and appropriate use of that that he might have been in a recovery ward at hospital. The rumours that the Opposition the QE II Hospital—which, by the way, is still spreads about people not being treated at the open, in spite of what the honourable member QE II Hospital are not only false but also might tell my constituents through their local disturbing. Constituents have rung my paper. electorate office to inquire about health Although the Bill before the House is a services. A lot of them are elderly and they minor amendment to the Health Services Act, become worried when they read the nonsense it nevertheless gives us an opportunity to that the honourable member puts out about provide some information to the Opposition the QE II Hospital being closed. They ask me, spokesman on Health about hospitals in our "Why did you close the QE II? Why can we no respective electorates. Although the QE II longer go there for medical treatment?" They Hospital is not in my electorate, it performs an are in a fairly distressed state when they 8 June 1995 12290 Legislative Assembly phone me. It takes me some time to reassure not true. That demonstrates the Opposition's them that 24 hours a day, seven days a week, ability to do nothing other than knock, carp they are able to receive treatment. Once they and whinge. It delivers no policies of its own have been reassured, they ask, "Why is Mr but instead knocks the fine hospital system Horan telling lies? Why is he spreading these that we have in Queensland. untruths about the QE II Hospital?" I have no Mr Horan: Why does your own hospital answer to that question, because I really do brochure say, "Don't send any serious patients not understand Mr Horan's agenda of lowering to the centre"? public confidence in the QE II Hospital. I can only suggest that Mr Horan is frightened of Mr ROBERTSON: It does not say that. change, because that is all that is happening The honourable member is wrong. I have at the QE II Hospital and in our health system. circulated that brochure widely in my electorate It is changing because of the population to combat the honourable member's increase that Queensland has been nonsense. It does not refer to that at all, and experiencing for some time and will continue the honourable member knows that. to experience in the future. Mr Horan: It does. At present, the QE II Hospital provides Mr ROBERTSON: Witty repartee! beds in the areas of gynaecology and general Plans are under way to use the QE II in surgery, including endoscopy, orthopaedics, the most efficient way possible for the benefit vascular surgery and urology. The hospital of the whole Brisbane south side community. also provides an Aged Care We have integrated the QE II with the Neurorehabilitation Unit which provides Princess Alexandra Hospital. It will be known neurological rehabilitation for in-patients and is as the PA/QE II Hospital and will specialise in supported by other allied health services, elective surgery, rehabilitation and including physiotherapy and occupational ophthalmology or eye services. All of those therapy. There is no age threshold for services I talked about earlier will continue to admission. The unit has 26 dedicated beds, be available to anyone in the community. As and patients are referred to it by general well, QE II will have more surgical and practitioners or by doctors at other hospitals. rehabilitation wards and, for the first time in its The unit's medical director reviews and history, all six operating theatres as well as the assesses all referrals. day surgery procedure room will be used for The Opposition has also told local elective surgery. residents that they cannot be treated for The Princess Alexandra ophthalmology accident and emergency cases. Again, that is department, Queensland Eye Bank, university false. The 24-hour Acute Primary Care Centre, clinical and research facilities and the Prevent to which I referred before, is fully operational Blindness Foundation will relocate to QE II in and treats sporting, industrial, household and the near future. This new unit will include playground injuries. It is open seven days a outpatients, day surgery, operating theatres week and it accepts self-referrals. That means and in-patient services and will be housed on that people can walk in off the street and the third floor of the QE II, with research receive treatment at the QE II Hospital. facilities possibly on a different level. That third I was interested in the Minister's answer to level is one of the two that was a question this morning with respect to that underutilised—in fact, never opened—by the unit. He stated that 95 per cent of all patients previous Government. The move has already who enter that unit are treated by it. That begun and should be completed by the start means that only some 5 per cent of patients of next year. Emergency surgery will remain at are transferred to other hospitals. To me, that the Princess Alexandra while elective surgery does not sound like a unit that is closed or a will be undertaken at the QE II. The vast unit that does not treat people for injuries or majority of eye surgery is elective surgery, so illness, yet the Opposition Health this move means that people who have eye spokesperson persists with the falsehood that surgery booked can be certain of their that unit does not operate. Government appointment and not have to worry about members can tell the honourable member whether there is emergency surgery that day opposite that that is the case, but it will go in or not. Once again, that is obviously an one ear and out the other. efficient utilisation of resources. The move will also mean further efficiencies as all the It would seem to me that these services facilities will be in the one dedicated location do not equal no services. It would seem to me rather than scattered over several parts of the that the white elephant that the Opposition hospital. There will also be dedicated theatres would have us believe is the QE II Hospital is for eye surgery rather than the general wards. Legislative Assembly 12291 8 June 1995

Research facilities will also be greatly Mr ROBERTSON: The member is a improved. At the moment, the researchers at joke. He has not listened to me. For the past Princess Alexandra Hospital do a magnificent 10 minutes, I have outlined what is occurring job under cramped conditions, but at the QE II at the hospital and what is about to be added they will have three times the space. The to the hospital. move will involve about 100 staff, who will Mr Horan interjected. occupy the vacant third floor of QE II. Ophthalmology is one of the major services at Mr Elder interjected. the Princess Alexandra Hospital, and last year Mr SPEAKER: Order! I would like to 2,300 surgical procedures and 13,700 hear the member for Sunnybank. outpatients went through the ophthalmology department. This move will enable QE II to be Mr ROBERTSON: Thank you, Mr better utilised and, at the same time, take Speaker. Mr Horan has not been listening to some of the pressures off the Princess me. For the past 10 minutes, I have set out Alexandra Hospital. The move will cost about what is happening at the hospital today and $4m, but it will provide a long-term base for what will be happening in the future— eye surgery—not just for the next few years. tomorrow, next week, next year and in a couple of years. To interject the way he did I was pleased to note that the Minister demonstrates clearly, firstly, that he has not today announced that the QE II Hospital is to listened and, secondly, that he does not want be upgraded to a full tertiary hospital. This to listen. move was made possible by the work of this Government to increase the specialties such We are undertaking such measures as as ophthalmology and the integration of the moving the entire ophthalmology department QE II with the Princess Alexandra Hospital. out of the Princess Alexandra Hospital to There had been limited teaching undertaken QE II, where there is a lot more room and at the hospital, but the upgrading of the QE II where the staff can get a clear shot at the campus to a full teaching hospital will make it waiting lists that the Opposition appears so possible for an extended range of teaching keen to remind us about. At the moment, activities to be undertaken. This will give QE II having two flagship hospitals—the Royal a direct link with the University of Queensland Brisbane and the Princess Alexandra— and allow both undergraduates and operating as trauma centres means that they postgraduates to study there. It will mean an have to give top priority to emergency cases. upgrading of expertise at the hospital but, just This is quite correct, but it does mean that as importantly, it will mean a different people on elective surgery lists have to be classification by the Federal Government for fitted in around the emergency cases. Having funding purposes. a hospital such as QE II dedicated to elective surgery means that people have to wait a lot This means that the QE II's role as a less than they otherwise would for operations. specialist hospital will be enhanced. The QE II QE II is tackling waiting lists—not only for eye Hospital is a wonderful hospital, but it has operations but also in the orthopaedic area. I never been fully utilised. At one stage during understand that further moves of specialist the 1980s, when the Nationals were in services are planned through the integration of Government, it had an occupancy rate of only the QE II Hospital with the Princess Alexandra 28 per cent. There are whole floors at the Hospital. QE II Hospital which have never been fully utilised. I have outlined the services that are currently provided at QE II Hospital and the Mr Elder: What was that figure services that are planned to go there in the again—28 per cent? near future. It is a hospital that has a secure Mr ROBERTSON: Twenty-eight per future under this Government. It is a hospital cent of the hospital was being utilised. that will, for the first time in its 14 or 15-year Mr Elder: That was the hospital he was history, finally be fully utilised. Importantly, it is on about this morning—28 per cent a hospital that will make a real difference to occupancy. the attack on waiting lists, particularly those for Mr ROBERTSON: Out of five floors—— elective surgery. I support those reforms to the QE II Hospital, as I do the broad health Mr Horan: Tell them about 1989. reforms that have been introduced by this Mr ROBERTSON: Under the former Government. The Opposition offers no Government, 28 per cent—— alternative. Mr Horan: You've taken everything out Mr SZCZERBANIK (Albert) (5.28 p.m.): of it. I am pleased to participate in this debate. I 8 June 1995 12292 Legislative Assembly want to place on the record some of the basic Mrs Edmond: Three weeks they used facts that should be considered in any debate to be in for. Now they are done in a day. on health issues and some of the Mr SZCZERBANIK: The member for misconceptions that the Opposition has Mount Coot-tha is correct. Patients would have portrayed during this debate. tests carried out over three days, they would Reference has been made to waiting lists. be placed on a waiting list on a Thursday or A waiting list is put together by a clinical Friday, then they would have their operation specialist based on the needs of a particular and be in hospital for another two weeks. patient. The specialist examines a patient in Technology is moving at such a rapid pace the consulting room, orders some tests to be that patients are now admitted to hospital in undertaken and subsequently assigns that the morning, have their procedure carried out patient to a waiting list on a needs basis. The that afternoon and go home that night or, if member for Toowoomba South should they are feeling too unwell, they stay overnight present the true face of waiting lists rather and go home the next day. Those beds are than his perception. The perception of the being used 20 times more than in the past, Opposition is that there are all these sick when one patient occupied a bed for 20 days. people who need to have surgery or some That is what technology has done and that type of treatment done today. The Minister leads to efficiencies in the system. Technology does not compile waiting lists. It is the is moving forward at a rapid rate. In any health specialist who decides in which order people debate, technology and the future have to be are placed on waiting lists. That is not the role addressed. We have to get that technology of Government; it is the role of specialists. and use it efficiently. In the past, the National Opposition members have referred to bed Party did not do that. It did not look at numbers. In fact, they have an obsession with technology and it did not use those bed beds, beds, beds. They regard the number of numbers efficiently. beds as a direct measure of the quality of We have an ageing population, which will service being provided through the public put more pressure on our health-care services. health system. As to beds—we should count The National Party does not tell people that an only those beds actually being utilised and not ageing population will eat up more of the those sitting on verandas or in fire escapes, health dollar. As a community we need to which is something that has occurred in the address that problem. The community should past. This Government is reducing bed also consider that in any health-care numbers at the Princess Alexandra and Royal system—including the western areas of Brisbane Hospitals, but those services are Queensland—many of the beds are occupied being transferred to where they are needed by geriatric patients. We need to address the most. When I was nursing at the Princess problems associated with an ageing Alexandra Hospital in 1982, most of the wards population. had 35 beds. However, each and every one of National Party members are talking about those beds should never have been put into a health-care system with a lot of self-interest those wards. There were three beds in the fire groups pushing their own barrows. We need to escape at the end of each ward which in look at all of those groups and do the best winter were subjected to cold weather and in that we can for the community at large. summer were subjected to heat. The Members of the medical profession are Opposition accuses this Government of basically looking at their pay packets. Doctors getting rid of beds. That is true, but the want more money. They are looking at their remaining beds will actually be used—and salaries, and they want some benefits. We used more efficiently than they were before. need to consider paying members of the I turn now to advances in technology. medical profession the types of salaries that Opposition members have referred to bed will attract them to country areas. numbers and the length of patient stays. In Members of the Opposition have spoken that regard, they should take into account the about the Greenslopes Hospital. I agree with length of time that each patient stays in each them when they say that we should never bed. It can be clearly seen that this have taken over that hospital. Within a 12- Government has achieved higher throughput kilometre radius of that hospital are the QE II, in the public hospital system. I cite the the Mater and the PA. That does not create example of gall bladder operations. The an efficient hospital service, because it is member for Callide referred to this topic earlier. putting all our eggs in one basket—not putting When I started nursing 20 years ago, hospitals into the areas which the member for patients—— Caboolture and I represent. We should be Legislative Assembly 12293 8 June 1995 providing those services in communities where There needs to be a bipartisan approach they are needed, not where the National Party to the health-care system. As I said, I have wants them. worked in the health-care system, and my Mrs Edmond: Not where the doctors honest belief is that no-one could afford the want them, either. most appropriate and ideal health-care system; we need look only at the problems in Mr SZCZERBANIK: Yes, but we will not the American health-care system for proof of kick the doctors any more. We have to put that. We have to do the best that we can with those services in places where they can be the resources that are available. I believe that used by the community. this Government is doing that and doing it very In its policy, the National Party has well. outlined—and I think it is the only policy that it This Government has a proud record of has outlined—that it wants to go back to the dragging our health-care system into the old system of the 137 hospital boards which twentieth century and planning to meet the were in place before we disbanded them and increased demands on health-care services. introduced regionalisation. There were 137 The Government has developed a two- boards, each comprising about eight or nine pronged plan to address the needs of our members, and I would say that most of those health-care system. We have developed members would have been card-carrying long-term planning strategies which provide a members of the National Party. Appointment framework for the future development of to those boards was like a knighthood for health services throughout Queensland. As I them; being members of hospital boards said, the National Party has no strategies to made them feel special. We should not go put in place; it has no vision. It just wants to back to that system, because it does not belt the Government over the head. It is trying translate into efficiencies; it only makes sure to find some arguments. A good health-care that a board's area is covered by the views of system needs vision. The National Party the members of that particular board. Those cannot continue to say, "Fix that, fix that, fix boards did not look at the health-care system that", because there is not enough money in as a whole. I agree that the regional health the system to fix everything; we are not living authorities should stay in place, and I will be in an ideal world. pushing for that. The regional health authority This Government has a 10-year health on the south coast is working well; it is doing services plan for Queensland which will guide good things. the efficient and effective development of Mention has been made of the Queensland's health-care system. That plan politicisation of regional health authorities. The proposes the development of an integrated chairman of the regional health authority on and networked health-care system involving the south coast, who used to be a member of acute hospital care, increased day surgery, the Liberal Party, was pressured by people in improved clinical services and expanded the Liberal Party to provide information to community health services for Aboriginal and them. She resigned from the Liberal Party and Torres Strait Islanders, and mental health. This got away from the party politics. She is doing a is the first time that Queensland has ever had good job, and I am going to re-nominate her, such a plan for the future of its public health because her term on the regional health sector. The key directions outlined in that authority is up. She has the skills and program will revitalise and rebuild the public commitment to do the right thing. She also hospital system, strengthen the primary has the skills to look after the community, and health-care sector and make Queensland a she plays it with a straight bat. I have no better and healthier place in which to live. problem with her; she does a good job for my These directions will be incorporated into area. regional services planning, which will outline I have already stated that Mr Horan has priorities for future service development within no vision for a long-term plan for health-care individual regions. From this will come further services. This shows that he is shroud-waving details on future capital works and other for his own benefit. resource requirements. A metropolitan health plan has also been Mr Nunn: Ambulance chasers. developed to guide the reforms of the public Mr SZCZERBANIK: Members opposite hospital system in Brisbane. That plan involves do chase ambulances, but they see this as a major enhancements and redevelopment of chance to belt the Government. They are the Royal Brisbane Hospital and the Princess hoping that these issues will get them into Alexandra Hospital and expansion of hospital Government. services in the growth corridor to the north and 8 June 1995 12294 Legislative Assembly south, into Albert and the Gold Coast. It will be two weeks. The PA doctor said there was the largest hospital rebuilding program ever nothing wrong with my mother's eyes, and that undertaken in Queensland. Changes to the all she needed was a new pair of glasses. health-care system occur slowly, so it will take People talk about waiting lists and the public several years to realise the full potential of system, yet that is a perfect example of how those long-term strategies. some people are rorting the private system What is this Government doing about the and using it to prey on our aged population. short-term problems which our system will People in the private system have abused and face? In May this year, the Health Minister, are abusing that system. My mother went to Jim Elder, released a four-point plan for get an opinion from a specialist, and if she meeting the immediate needs of the health- had accepted that opinion he would have care system: the 1995 Health Action Plan. treated her at a cost of $2,000. The private That plan is designed to address all the health system is supposed to be so good, yet that is hot spots, about which we read so much in the a perfect example of how it can be abused. media and about which the Opposition makes The $35m Hospital Access Bonus Pool such a fuss. That plan acknowledges the need will be established to provide additional for urgent action which will flow into the incentives to hospitals to treat people on long-term plans. Queensland faces problems waiting lists and to treat the sickest people which are common to health-care systems first. I hope that is done. Specialists do a good throughout Australia and in other parts of the job. They take patients on a needs basis, Western World, and Governments everywhere based on their clinical observation of those are attempting to deal with them. In the six patients. Funding will be paid to hospitals only years of the Goss Government, we have after they have provided the service to the treated 2.7 million public patients in our public patients on the waiting list, not before. hospital system—600,000 more than were treated under the National Party Government. A $20m Home Support Scheme will be established for the development of community In short, the Health Minister has based health services to support the acute committed $181.1m over three years to tackle hospital system. Technology is changing and the shortcomings of the health-care system. patients are getting in and out of hospital a lot The first component of the plan is a three- faster. Hospitals do cost a lot of money and it year, $64m Hospital Waiting List Program. is better to treat people in their own homes. It Admissions to our hospitals are increasing has been proven that patients get better faster rapidly, and we are treating over 400 patients in their own homes following treatment in a a week more than we did last year. This hospital, and they get back to work quicker. I Government is concerned that those people applaud the Minister for this initiative. As the do not have to wait too long; but we need to member for Mount Coot-tha said, it has been remember that when people are on waiting proven that people do get sick in hospital. lists, specialists are needed to undertake the Where possible, patients should be treated in necessary treatment. That is one of the hospitals and then sent home to their own problems that I mentioned before: the medical environment, where they do get better quicker. profession is not coming back into the system We should concentrate on the area of pre- to work for us. That is another problem that admissions and early discharge care, palliative this Government is addressing. care, diabetes, asthma, maternity and kidney The $9m waiting list program will be disease. established to clear the backlog and to target The second point of the four point plan the areas where people have been waiting too addresses the health work force. Our first long. The money will be used to lift priority is to attract and retain more medical Queensland's rate of surgery for procedures specialists in our public hospital system, and a such as hip replacements, prostate $30m package of incentives has been operations, cataract surgery and ear developed to help recruit and retrain full-time operations, which are areas of known backlog. specialists and medical superintendents in My mother went to the local GP metropolitan, provincial and regional areas. complaining that she could not read the This package includes the provision of paper. He sent her to a specialist and the non-award incentives such as motor cars, specialist said, "You have cataracts in both mobile phones, faxes and pagers. The Health eyes. Come back in a week. It will only cost Minister is also talking to medical colleges you $1,000 an eye, and I can do it in the about the additional requirements for specialist private system." I told her to get an training positions in the Queensland public appointment at the PA, which she got within hospital system. Legislative Assembly 12295 8 June 1995

Of interest to me is that nursing staff are operates within my electorate of Brisbane given a priority in this package. A three-year Central. It provides a vast range of secondary $6m Nursing Work Force Management and tertiary services to the constituents of my Program will be introduced to improve the electorate, to the wider Brisbane area, and to range and level of nursing skills available in the State of Queensland as a whole. our hospital system. This package addresses For the first time, Queensland Health has a number of emerging issues within the put in place a series of planning documents nursing work force. It will increase the supply of specialist nurses available in the larger which will guide the future development of hospitals throughout the State, the re-entry of health services across the State, with the nurses into the nursing profession and the Royal Brisbane Hospital playing a key role. transition to work of new graduates. The These planning studies include the south-east majority of nurses are females. Many nurses Queensland Hospitals Planning Project by want to leave the profession to have families, Bernie Mackay and Associates in March 1993, but they also want to return to the system one the 10-year Health Services Plan for day. When I was nursing the ratio of males to Queensland, the Metropolitan Hospital females was about 15 to 85. I believe a lot of Services Plan and the Selected Tertiary men should look at nursing as a profession in Referral Services Plan. These planning studies the future; it has been a good profession to provide direction for the future development of health services in Queensland. me and I enjoyed every moment of it. However, as I said to the Minister, I will not be The principles which have provided the taking up one of these positions after the next basis for these studies are as follows: the State election because we will be coming back Queensland health region should be as here. self-sufficient as possible in the provision of non-tertiary hospital services. Secondly, The third area of commitment of the four hospital services, particularly non-tertiary point plan is to rebuild our hospitals. An services, should be located as close as additional $40m will be provided over the next possible to where people live and where they two years to accelerate the implementation of will live in the future. Thirdly, where a region the Metropolitan Hospitals Rebuilding has sufficient population to sustain a particular Program, with particular emphasis on our tertiary service, taking into account clinical major flagships, the Royal Brisbane and needs and economies of scale, this should be Princess Alexandra Hospitals. This encouraged. Fourthly, super specialty services Government has dramatically increased should be planned rationally across regions to spending on our hospitals, from $38m in 1989 avoid duplication, which is costly and to $154m in 1995, and an estimated $193m dissipates clinical expertise. Fifthly, any will be spent in 1996. The Goss Government planning for hospital services should examine has also committed $650m to rebuild and the needs of the total community, whether upgrade metropolitan hospitals. The additional they are satisfied by public or private hospitals. funding announced in the four point plan will Finally, effective management of the increase allow work to commence immediately on the in demand for hospital services will depend on most ambitious Hospital Rebuilding Program adequate community support services. ever undertaken in Australia. The existence of these plans is in direct The final commitment of the four point contrast to the haphazard approach to health plan is to provide an additional $35m over the service development which was the modus next two years for the Hospital Specialist operandi of the previous National Party Equipment Program to upgrade and Government. When we have this debate modernise hospital equipment. Technology is about health, let us not forget the mess that increasing rapidly with such things as MIRs we inherited from the previous Government. and CAT scans. It will continue to increase, but Whereas that Government spent a meagre we need to keep pace with that equipment amount of money on capital works programs and to replace run-down equipment in our in the 1988-89 Budget, this Government has hospitals. introduced a 10-year, $1.5 billion Hospital Time expired. Rebuilding Program. To further demonstrate this commitment, my colleague the Health Mr BEATTIE (Brisbane Central) Minister, Jim Elder, has managed to increase (5.48 p.m.): I rise to support this Bill. The Royal the amount of capital moneys committed to Brisbane Hospital, which is this State's and the redevelopment of hospitals over the next Australia's largest hospital and the flagship of two financial years. I congratulate him on that the Queensland public hospital system, initiative. 8 June 1995 12296 Legislative Assembly

Honourable members will note that the to introduce a hospital specialist equipment last planning principle relates to the provision program to upgrade and modernise of adequate community support services. This equipment. Government has had the task of developing When I was first elected to this House in Queensland Health community support 1989, I took the opportunity to inspect the services to a level which is equivalent to the Royal Brisbane Hospital. The previous level of services provided in other States. Government's neglect of capital works was Members may ask why this situation has nothing short of a disgrace. I congratulate the occurred. The reason is that in the early 1970s Minister on this initiative to finally address the when the Whitlam Government offered to problem that we inherited. There is already provide funds under the Medibank agreement ample evidence of this Government's for the States to develop community health commitment and, as I have said, the Health services, every other State in Australia, both Minister's commitment to relieve the pressure Labor and Liberal, took up Whitlam's on waiting lists in public hospitals in this State. offer—indeed, they took it gladly—except Joh Bjelke-Petersen's Government, the only On 16 April this year, the Health Minister Government in Australia that did not take up announced that, through the provision of an the funds. He would not take those funds extra $2m, an additional 900 operations would because he believed they were tarnished. As take place in Brisbane hospitals in the next a result, the people of Queensland have had three months. This was a direct way to deal to suffer from a lack of community health with the waiting list problem. Let me deal with services which are necessary to put in place the actual numbers so that we do not have effective community health programs. I hope the Opposition trying to distract people or that the National Party in this campaign trots ignore what in fact is being done. These out Sir Joh to campaign on its behalf. When operations consisted of the following: QE II they do, we will remind them of his lack of Hospital, an extra 100 orthopaedic initiative and the fact that he rejected those operations—this will also take some of the funds. pressure off the Logan Hospital; the Mater Children's Hospital, an extra 170 operations, Mrs Woodgate interjected. mostly for ear, nose and throat complaints; the Mr BEATTIE: The four point plan which Mater Adults Hospital, an extra 400 has been put in place by my colleague the operations, mostly day surgery and Health Minister, Jim Elder, in the Budget for gynaecological, orthopaedics, general surgery 1995-96 outlines a number of strategies which and plastic surgery—— will have a direct impact on the delivery of health services for the Royal Brisbane Mr Comben: Don't you know about Hospital. Importantly, it contains a $20m that? Home Support Scheme as part of the waiting Mr BEATTIE: Yes, I do have three list strategy which will provide important links children. I know exactly what gynaecology is all between the Royal Brisbane and other about. The Royal Children's Hospital will have hospitals and community health services which an extra 68 ear, nose and throat operations; have not been available because of the and the Royal Brisbane Hospital, an extra 200 previous Government's neglect. operations consisting of 50 hip replacements, This plan also outlines other strategies to 50 knee replacements, 20 prostate operations relieve the pressures on the health system and 80 lens procedures. I have not heard the which have been identified by the Health Opposition spokesman make any reference to Minister. These include a three-year, $64m this at any time during this debate. Hospital Waiting List Program to cut the Mr Pearce: Not once. backlog and introduce a systematic method of Mr BEATTIE: That is right, not once guaranteeing access to elective surgery during this debate or at any other time. according to medical need. A three-year, $42.1m package of incentives will be Mr Horan: We are just trying to catch up introduced to attract and retain medical on what we have lost. specialists and nurses, including remote area Mr BEATTIE: I would have thought that nurses. An additional $40m is to be provided as the Opposition Health spokesman the over the next two years to accelerate member would have applauded an initiative implementation of the Metropolitan Hospitals that meant that Queenslanders were getting Rebuilding Program, with particular emphasis through the waiting lists and having speedier on our major flagships the Royal Brisbane and access to operations. Not a word. Princess Alexandra Hospitals. An additional $35m will be provided over the next two years Mr Horan interjected. Legislative Assembly 12297 8 June 1995

Mr BEATTIE: Not once. Here is Mr Mr FitzGerald: Does it take account of Horan's opportunity. Why does he not say inflation? something positive about it? Mr BEATTIE: Listen, take your shoes Mr Horan interjected. off and put them in your mouth and you might Mr BEATTIE: Something new! Two be able to count. You will have an extra million dollars—all those operations are new tongue. I would like to emphasise to and there is not one positive word out of Mr honourable members, including the Horan. All he wants to do is whinge and moan honourable member for Lockyer, that the and groan and carry on. Not one word. He toadies opposite, that is him, have no policy. would be better off in South Africa supporting The only policy the wimps opposite have is to his son. At least Queenslanders would cheer centralise all power and decision making in for him then. Most recently, my colleague the Brisbane. For the Opposition spokesman who Health Minister has further demonstrated his comes from Toowoomba to support that commitment to action to attack these waiting position is extraordinary. I wonder what the lists by announcing on Tuesday of this week, 6 people of Toowoomba or Lockyer think about June, a further $5m to re-open two theatres at his policy to centralise, eliminating any say that the Royal Brisbane Hospital which will the residents of regional Queensland might specifically undertake elective surgery. Did I have regarding the types of services delivered hear anything from the Opposition spokesman to their community. about that? Not a word. It is the Goss Government which has Mr Horan: Did we hear anything from brought decision making closer to the people you when they closed? of regional Queensland, including Mr BEATTIE: Yes, we sure did, and the Toowoomba, through regionalisation. It is the Minister did something about it. Not one policy vacuum of the so-called coalition which positive word has Mr Horan said about the wants to centralise everything with the faceless Minister's initiatives. The Minister has bent bureaucrats in Brisbane. Shame on the over backwards to do what he can. Money is National Party, that once great bastion of the poured into health, things are happening and battlers of the bush. All they are about is all Mr Horan can do is whinge and moan. Mr centralisation. Bringing the honourable Horan is political. He is all about politics. He member's action back to the action that this does not care about people, he is all about Government has taken in relation to politics—votes, not people, and he does not delivery—— care. I hope that Mr Horan will take notes. I Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.30 p.m. repeat that the Minister announced a further $5m to re-open two theatres at the Royal Mr BEATTIE: Before the dinner recess, Brisbane Hospital which will specifically I was saying that this Government is taking the undertake elective surgery. This will mean that necessary action in relation to the delivery of an additional 2,700 surgical procedures will be better services to the people of Queensland. undertaken at the hospital over the next 12 As we all know, recently the Health Minister months. announced his four-point plan of action to which I referred earlier, which meets the These operations will eliminate 20 per immediate needs of the people of cent of the backlog which the policy-free Queensland. whingers of the Opposition claim to exist. Further proof of this Government's The second component, which I commitment to the Royal Brisbane Hospital mentioned earlier, involves a package of and the entire Herston complex is the simple incentives to attract and retain medical staff fact that in 1988-89 the Nationals spent a total and nurses in the Queensland public hospital of $211m on the Royal Brisbane, Royal system. That has been a problem for some Women's and Royal Children's Hospitals. In time. However, it is important to note that, contrast, as at 30 April 1995 this Government whereas the Health Minister has an action had spent $284m on these hospitals. This is a plan to deal with the immediate problems, the 25 per cent increase over the Nationals' spokesman opposite has offered nothing but previous underfunding of the hospital system. empty-headed prophecies of doom—no The figures speak for themselves. policies. We wait to see what policies the Mr FitzGerald: Is that real terms or raw Opposition will have between now and the figures? election. I suspect that we will wait in vain. Mr BEATTIE: Of course it is real terms. Mr T. B. Sullivan: Like all portfolios— What does the honourable member think it is? no policies. 8 June 1995 12298 Legislative Assembly

Mr BEATTIE: Indeed, not just Health, it in Herston and Kelvin Grove have been angry will be all portfolios. As part of the package to for some time about that parking problem. retain medical specialists, the Government will Finally we have a solution, which is two- be providing a $30m package of non-award tiered. Firstly, the Minister and the Health incentives to attract and retain medical Department are providing on-site parking. specialists in the system. Those include motor Secondly, a two-hour parking plan by the vehicles, a communications component and Brisbane City Council will ensure that those car additional secretarial support staff. It is vital parks are used. That will mean a significant that we have those specialists. improvement in the quality of life for the The Opposition spokesman on Health residents who live nearby in Herston and constantly rabbits on about the lack of acute Kelvin Grove. I thank the Minister for the beds available at Royal Brisbane Hospital. provision of that funding. What is his half-baked answer? It is to provide The final component involves the more beds at the hospital. Not once has he implementation of a hospital specialist acknowledged that all the beds in the world equipment program, which will accelerate the can be provided, but without the specialists replacement and upgrading of equipment in and nurses to staff those beds, those beds our hospitals with a particular focus on the might as well be piled at the back of the metropolitan hospitals. It is an indictment on hospital. Where are his strategies to attract the manner in which the previous Government and retain specialists in the Queensland public ran the hospital system that the specialists hospital system? They do not exist! There is a had to operate with equipment that in many vast, black hole opposite from which no vision cases was almost 30 years old. The and no policies emerge. As has been said on replacement of this original equipment that a number of occasions, it is a policy-free zone. was put in place by the outdated coalition has These days, people are too sophisticated and already commenced. On 17 May the Health too well educated to allow a political party to Minister announced that new medical go to an election without policies. They want to equipment costing over $3m would be know what political parties are going to do installed at the Royal Brisbane Hospital and when they offer themselves as an alternative the Royal Women's Hospital. That equipment Government and they have been sadly includes 21 anaesthetic monitoring machines, disappointed to date and no doubt will valued at $1.4m; four monitoring systems for continue to be until the election, and even high dependency care, $176,000; 30 patient- after. controlled analgesic devices, $105,000; 17 The next component of the Minister's plan anaesthetic machines, $1.2m; one fibre optic relates to accelerating the rebuilding of the incubation system, $61,000; and 20 metropolitan hospitals. Heavens above! That anaesthetic trolleys, $39,000. We often hear is so long overdue. Evidence can already be members of the Opposition asking: where is seen at Royal Brisbane Hospital that that the funding for equipment? That is where the process is under way. Heavy machinery is funding is. That is the equipment. It is clear. It already on site and is in the process of is specified. It is detailed. That is where the clearing land to develop car parking so that money is going. Again, not once do we hear doctors can have somewhere to park their the Opposition acknowledging that vehicles. That area will provide additional car contribution. parks for visitors so that those cars are not Is it any wonder that the Queensland clogging the streets around the Royal public hospital system has difficulty in Brisbane Hospital. attracting specialists when they have been Mr Fenlon: Mr Horan can't see that. expected to operate with outdated equipment Mr BEATTIE: He has trouble getting and facilities that were suitable back in the here, let alone there. For some time, my 1960s? That was the system under the constituents in Herston have been concerned Nationals and Liberals. It should not surprise about the overflow of parking from the Royal honourable members, because the pathetic, Brisbane Hospital. One solution is the so-called coalition continues to live in the early provision of an on-site car park, not only for 1960s. They have not realised that we are doctors but also for nursing staff. As only five years from the twenty-first century. honourable members would appreciate, Further evidence of this Government's nursing staff come off duty at all hours. They commitment to the Royal Brisbane Hospital is need to have security on the way to their car the recent announcement by the Health or public transport. That has not been Minister of the provision of 10 intensive care available until now. Residents in my electorate step-down or high-dependency beds at Royal Legislative Assembly 12299 8 June 1995

Brisbane. Those high-dependency beds will service offering therapeutic and community release the pressure on intensive care and programs based in the Pine Shire. Staffed by enable doctors to concentrate on the people women general practitioners, on-call crisis who need most attention. High-dependency counsellors and nursing staff, the acute beds can be used in cases such as when a service provides 24-hour medical and forensic patient has had major surgery which has gone services. That unit is long overdue. It is well but that person still needs to be soundly placed at the Royal Women's monitored. This monitoring can occur Hospital. That is another example of sensible effectively in a high-dependency unit, with a initiatives by this Government and this quick transfer if need be. Those are front-line Minister. services for both urgent surgery and trauma, Mr PEARCE (Fitzroy) (7.40 p.m.): Health and for major elective surgery. Increases in is an area of great interest to all demand have raised concerns about the Queenslanders and the Health Services Act is current capacity of the intensive care units at the main legislation under which our health both the Royal Brisbane and the Princess system is organised. That legislation was Alexandra Hospitals. The Government has introduced into this House in 1991 to legislate acted to relieve this pressure, as it always acts for the future organisation, management and to address issues as they arise. The delivery of our public sector health services. Government has the policies in place to The Act is the legislative base for the effectively provide for the future health needs regionalisation of Queensland's public health of the people of Queensland. The so-called services. When the Bill was introduced, it coalition has no policies, no plans and no represented the most wide-ranging change to hope at this year's State election. public health services in Queensland in over It gives me great pleasure to support this 40 years. It enshrined the principles of social Bill as it will help to attract and retain justice, equity, responsiveness, efficiency and specialists at the Royal Brisbane Hospital by accountability within the health system. The providing them with indemnity while carrying Health Services Act repealed the Hospitals out their essential clinical activities in the Act, abolished the State's 59 hospital boards delivery of health services to the people of and provided for the establishment of 13 Queensland. regional health authorities. I place on public record my appreciation The changeover to a regionalised system of the Minister's announcement today about was necessitated by dramatic changes over the commencement at the Royal Women's the past four decades to hospitals and the Hospital of the Brisbane North Acute Sexual consumer population of Queensland. The Assault Service. The establishment of that Opposition, when it was in Government, failed service demonstrates a major commitment by to respond to those changes. Today, it is Queensland Health and the Brisbane North recognised that health is more than hospitals, Health Region to meeting the needs of and the management of health must women who have been victims of sexual encompass the full spectrum of services violence. The Brisbane North Health Region, including community and institutional care. incorporating the Pine Shire, has the second- The reforms in the Health Services Act largest population of the 13 Queensland 1991 heralded a new era in health care in Health regions. The estimated resident Queensland. The amendment Bill before the population as at 30 June 1986 was 436,853 House will repeal the provision of the Health or 16.6 per cent of the State's population of Services Act that provides indemnity of which 179,114 were women 15 years and employees, members and agents of the over. It is expected that the total population regional health authorities. Section 3.35 of the will reach 471,060 by the year 2001, of which Act confers a limited statute to indemnity. I 196,637 will be women 15 years and over. understand the Act in its current form is Given those statistics it is significant to note sufficient to cover the indemnity of employees that it is estimated that one in four women and other regional health players. However, have undergone some form of sexual assault, there has been some concern from within the which is why that service is so important. public health system, mainly through The service that the Minister announced confusion surrounding the provision of the Act, today comprises two parts: an acute service and the Minister has agreed to repeal that for women who have recently been raped or section of it. People working in the public sexually assaulted which offers women skilled health system are doing an outstanding job in medical attention including forensic delivering health services to the people of examination, supported by information and Queensland. The health system work force crisis counselling, and a community-based should be able to do their work without fear of 8 June 1995 12300 Legislative Assembly being sued and they should not be obliged to The planning for hospitals is now done take out private indemnity cover; however the locally, with priorities for refurbishing and repeal of section 3.35 of the Act will overcome building stemming from local needs. I go back their concerns. to that point: for the first time in Queensland, Since winning Government in 1989, Labor people at the local level are given an has made significant reforms to the opportunity to have input into health services Queensland health system. The system left according to their needs. It is certainly a move behind by the previous Government was away from the old idea of having the provision inefficient, suffered from low staff morale and of hospital services in rural areas being did not deliver services well. The challenge left decided by bureaucrats located in Brisbane. to Labor to revive the State's health system is Hospitals are better equipped as regions are certainly being met, largely through the able to prioritise and purchase the equipment process of regionalisation. Regional health they need appropriate to the services they authorities now operate across the State, and provide. Again, local people are having the they ensure that services appropriate to local opportunity to have an input into that. communities are being delivered based on I say to members opposite that, with the decisions made locally. Under the umbrella of former Health Minister, I have travelled regionalisation, Queenslanders are being throughout Queensland and I have visited provided with a more efficient health service dozens of hospitals. Also, as a member of the more attuned to local needs. Premier's northern rural task force, I have visited a lot of communities—well in excess of Regionalisation has a number of 100 communities just with the task force—and advantages. It has seen the development of a I can say that the responses that I have health care system responsive to the needs of received have been overwhelming. Members the people of Queensland. The regionalised of local authorities, people who served on the system is based on the principles of old hospital boards and community health effectiveness, efficiency, equity and social workers have told members of the health justice, responsiveness, accountability and committee, other members of the task force autonomy. Regionalisation is providing and me that the best thing that has happened improved clinical services and better to health for rural Queenslanders has been coordination and management of the public the regionalisation of the Health Department. I sector health service within geographic areas keep coming back and telling the Health of the State. Opposition members should be Minister that that is the feeling of the people. listening to this because this is what they are People appreciate the fact that the health intending to take away from the people of rural services are out there in the regions. Queensland, and that is where my concerns lie. The Opposition also intends to take away We know that the system is not perfect, the improved community representations and we would be fools to try to claim that it is. through the regional health authorities. It is very difficult to get such a large and Regionalisation also provides single-point important service to a level at which there will accountability for service delivery, with the be no complaints. The Opposition knows that responsible officer being the regional director. full well, but it will continue to keep wheeling out these examples of unfortunate people People using the public sector health who have been caught up within the system. It system are no longer lost in the maze of is unfortunate that that happens, but that will hospital and community services. For the first happen because the system is so large and it time, these services are integrated and all of has to deal with a lot of people. the health services of a region are working together. That means that, when someone Mr Nunn: They are largely matters of leaves hospital and still needs assistance, that administration, not of policy. assistance is being organised, and that Mr PEARCE: I will take that point raised communities have services available to them by the honourable member. They are largely that are appropriate to their region. Priorities problems that have been caused through a for care are decided locally. Staff members are breakdown in the administration, or specialists considered part of a team within a not being available to perform certain multidisciplinary setting, with the focus on the operations. One cannot blame the patient or the client rather than on professional Government for those types of things. imperatives. Staff members are now better The 13 regional health authorities are trained, as they are encouraged to improve responsible for overseeing the delivery of their qualifications and skills. That is leading to health services to the people of Queensland an enhanced quality of care. through 154 hospitals, 55 outpatient clinics, 23 Legislative Assembly 12301 8 June 1995 nursing homes and hostels, and 323 gutful of people in Brisbane making decisions community-based services. Again, one can about what I want in my electorate for my see that Health is a great big organisation. We people. If people such as Murial Backhouse, now provide a broad spectrum of services, who is a strong and very respected which includes home care, oral health, mental representative, are taken away by honourable health, services for alcohol and drug diseases, members opposite, they will take away the pre-hospital admission and post-hospital care opportunity for people to have a say. as well as services for people with special Mr Nunn: Centralise power in Brisbane needs such as women, people in rural areas, and patronise the regions. people with disabilities and Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders. Mr PEARCE: I take that interjection. To do this massive job, the Queensland This Labor Government has given people Government has 33,000 full-time staff that opportunity, something which a coalition operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Government would take away. A coalition So, as much as people on the Opposition side Government would return to the bad old days may try to deny it, this Government has of letting people in Brisbane make the moved to expand the services available to the decisions for people in the regions. If people of this State. That is why the honourable members opposite were fair Opposition policy to abolish regionalisation is dinkum, they would be talking to the clinical so intriguing. I just do not know where the specialists who determine for whom and when Opposition is coming from. It wants to replace a procedure will take place. This Government regional health authorities with 50 mini- is not involved in the day to day running of regional offices. If this was implemented, we hospitals. would lose the economies of scale for areas The Opposition should be trying to such as finance, accounts, information convince its friend the AMA and the other systems, planning and service development. It specialist service providers to loosen their would be impossible to continue to supply greedy grip on the control of the number of these services locally, so those functions and students who go through the medical colleges. many more would revert to the central office. The problem is that we do not have enough We would go back to the old system that specialists to meet the need. If those those guys opposite had in place. Once more, specialists were available, we could meet all the decisions would be made in Brisbane. those demands, which are increasing all the This move would go against the trends of time. However, the Opposition wants to take health management in every other State in the easy way out and blame the Government. Australia. Once again, it would disempower The Opposition's performance is ludicrous. those people who live outside south-east Health is supposed to be a major election Queensland. It means that people in towns issue for the Opposition, but what is it doing such as Blackwater, Mount Morgan and Dysart about it? Tonight, only three Opposition would have no input to improving the health members contributed to a debate on a topic services in their towns. In Blackwater, we have which they say is the most important election a councillor by the name of Murial Backhouse, issue. who is a member of the regional health Mr T. B. Sullivan: Has Mr Horan authority. She is a very strong representative outlined his plan for what he would have for for the people living in the Duaringa Shire. She the representation of country areas? understands what it is like to live in a coal Mr PEARCE: He would bring the community. So she is a good representative administration back to Brisbane. He wants to for my electorate. take away the regional offices and the rights of Mr Horan: You will get far better people in rural Queensland and have the representation under our scheme. decisions made in Brisbane. I will not accept Mr PEARCE: The Opposition, by taking that. I will be back in this House after the away the regional health authority, will take election along with 54 or 55 of my colleagues. away the opportunity for the people who live in We will be confirmed in Government. The that shire and the people who live in those people in regional areas will support us, coal towns to have an input into the health because they know what has been achieved services that they need. They want to have a through regionalisation. They do not want to say in what they need, not to have some go back to the system that the Opposition is bureaucrat in Brisbane decide what they proposing. should have. As a member representing a Mr Nuttall: Is Brisbane Central coming rural community, I can say that I have had a back, too? 8 June 1995 12302 Legislative Assembly

Mr PEARCE: We will take Brisbane States. The commitment from the Central. conservative Government was not really there. I am certainly not convinced that the It knew the system was too popular to tamper Opposition is serious about its health policy. If with but never allocated a proper level of it is serious, why is it not telling National Party funding to match the level of services and candidates what it will do with regional offices expenditure on health enjoyed by other and regionalisation? Two National Party States. This was the system we inherited in candidates who will be running for the seats of 1989. It had been allowed to run down and Mulgrave and Cook at the next State election was desperately in need of capital injection have applied for positions on regional health and revitalisation. I am proud to say that this authorities. What a joke! If I were not such a Government has taken on that challenge. serious person, I would probably start laughing With the regionalisation of health services about that. The other thing that amazes me is in Queensland, proper planning now occurs to that many of the members of regional health meet the demands of our growing population. authorities, who are trying to get the message Regional health authorities supply local input across on behalf of people in rural into the health needs of the region. communities, have a National Party Administrators have moved out of central background. There are also good Labor Party office in Brisbane and into the regions, in people on those authorities. The Opposition is which they now live and work. The advent of proposing to take away the jobs of some of its regionalisation has meant that we have own supporters. I cannot understand where it expanded services in the growth areas north is coming from. I am sure that the electorate and south of Brisbane and in north will not understand or accept that. Queensland. We have worked hard to expand Mr Beattie: I think a regional member specialist services outside the south-east like that wouldn't do that. That is most corner. The establishment of cancer and heart extraordinary. surgery in Townsville is an example of that. Mr PEARCE: What upsets the National This Government has significantly Party regional members is that a member of boosted funding to Health to cater for these the Labor Party is standing in this place expanded services. The next financial year will arguing as often and strongly as possible for see a record increase of $2.7 billion. This keeping services in rural Queensland, yet the funding will go directly into increased health Opposition will take those services away. I am services for all Queenslanders. The firm a Labor Party member and I am trying to stick financial footing of this State means that up for those people out there who do not record funding is now going into rebuilding and support me! modernising this State's free hospital system. Queensland has maintained a free I turn to central Queensland in more hospital system for the past 50 years. The detail. The very large area of central political architect of this system was the Labor Queensland is covered by the Central Premier and Minister for Health Ted Hanlon. Regional Health Authority. It is the fifth largest The member for Chermside touched on that of the 13 Queensland health regions. It covers earlier. an area of over 100,000 square kilometres. It includes 11 local authorities. It extends from Mr T. B. Sullivan: Ned. the Capricorn Coast to Gladstone and to Mr PEARCE: Okay, it is Ned. Mr Hanlon Emerald. It is expected that the population in was a great Queenslander and was successful this region will grow to more than 192,000 by in retaining our free health system against the the year 2001. The current population stands wishes of the Federal Liberal/Country Party at more than 167,000. Some 25 per cent of Government which tried to reintroduce charges the population are under the age of 15. Some for public ward treatment. If the coalition 12 per cent are over 60 years old. Some 6 per happens to get into Government at the cent are Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, Federal level and members opposite do an and 10 per cent are from non-English- amazing thing and shock everybody by getting speaking backgrounds. back into Government in Queensland, that is Under regionalisation, the people of probably one of the things that will be looked central Queensland are getting the services at again. they need. This is recognised by the Following the change of Government in Government's commitment to the region in the 1957, a free public hospital system was Health Action Plan. Central Queensland health maintained, but with severe limitations on services are set to benefit from a $4,180,000 growth in expenditure compared with other State Government boost to the public health Legislative Assembly 12303 8 June 1995 system. The plan targets waiting lists, working undertake that economic evaluation. That conditions, hospital buildings and medical letter was marked "urgent" and stated that the equipment. Although the majority of funding evaluation had to be completed in five or six for the central region will benefit major weeks. That consultancy was completed. I was hospitals such as the Rockhampton Base approached by the consultant in my electorate Hospital, equipment and service will assist office in Noosa. I believe that his fee was patients from across the region who go to $15,000. He interviewed and met with many Rockhampton for treatment. It will also provide other people in my electorate. That was the added incentives for medical staff to work in last step in the planning process for the the region. The incentive packages for rural provision of those 75 beds, the need for which staff will make it easier to attract medical and was identified quite clearly in the 1992 nursing staff and, in particular, specialists. strategic plan. I for one know how difficult it is to employ I believe that that strategic plan had the doctors and nursing staff in the regions. In my approval of the Minister's office before it was electorate, we have had some difficulty in released. One really has to question a employing nurses at Mount Morgan. We had Government that releases a strategic plan to to advertise in England to find a medical people who are about to invest in real estate superintendent for the Blackwater Hospital. He or settle into a lifestyle in a certain region is doing an excellent job and is worth every expecting the delivery of services. What is the dollar being paid to him. point of undertaking planning processes or Time expired. preparing strategic plans if, after they have been through the Minister's office, the Mr DAVIDSON (Noosa) (8 p.m.): I am Government does not deliver on them? pleased to make a contribution to this debate. I want to refer in particular to the proposed Mr Elder: When did it go through the new hospital in the Noosa electorate. For Minister's office? some time now, the delivery of health services Mr DAVIDSON: Many people who have in Noosa has been an issue for many people moved into my electorate in the last three or in my electorate. I was interested to hear the four years have been hoodwinked by the member for Fitzroy sing the praises of regional Minister's office and by Queensland Health. health authorities and the purpose for which Mr Elder: Why don't you table what the they were established. I am delighted that the consultant told you? You say you've got those member reinforced the fact that the purpose statements. Table them. of regional health authorities is to identify the need for health services and facilities in Mr DAVIDSON: The economic regions. At a Public Works Committee inquiry evaluation is in the Minister's office. It has some time ago, the acting director-general been there for a year. stated quite clearly that that was the purpose Mr Elder: Table them. of regional health authorities. I thank the Mr DAVIDSON: Because it is a Cabinet member for Fitzroy for those statements and document—— his endorsement of regional health authorities. Mr Elder: You said you had advice from There is no point in regionalisation and no the consultant. Table it. Put your money where point in establishing regional health authorities your mouth is. if the Government does not heed their advice. The Sunshine Coast Regional Health Authority Mr DAVIDSON: This was the identified clearly in its 1992 strategic plan the Government's consultant. The Minister has need for 75 hospital beds in the Noosa been in the job five minutes, and he does not electorate by 1996. It employed many know anything about the issue. I have asked consultants, advisers, health planners and all him two questions on this issue in the House, sorts of other people to go through the and from his answers it is evident that he does process of identifying the need for those beds. not know anything about it. At the end of the day, the Government, Mr Elder: You're talking through your through the central office of Queensland hat again. Health, advised the regional health authority Mr DAVIDSON: The document is in the that an economic evaluation needed to be Minister's office. It has been in the Cabinet undertaken as a last step in that planning bag for a year. In March, I asked the Minister process. a question about the economic evaluation In September 1993, the regional director prepared by JTCW Forbes, health consultant. for health wrote to JTCW Forbes, health The Minister did not answer that question, consultant of Sydney, requesting that he because he did not know anything about it. 8 June 1995 12304 Legislative Assembly

The economic evaluation is in the Minister's purchase of a suitable site. The Government office or it is in the Cabinet bag. even had consultants identify six sites. It even The Labor Party candidate in Noosa was had those consultants go to a Noosa Heads locked out of that meeting the other day. The real estate agent and start negotiating to hospital board would not let him attend that purchase a suitable site. That is how far meeting. advanced the matter was. I will tell the Minister the facts, because he obviously does not Mr Elder: What meeting? know them. Mr DAVIDSON: The meeting at the Mr Elder: This is going to cost you the Noosa District Hospital on Saturday afternoon. seat of Noosa by the time I'm finished. The Minister met with the board and the chief Mr DAVIDSON: No way in the world! I executive officer of Noosa District Hospital on have news for the Minister. The consultants Saturday afternoon at 2 o'clock or 2.30. The negotiated the purchase of a site for the board members would not let the Labor Party proposed Noosa hospital, and then the candidate attend that meeting because he funding was pulled. has totally politicised their hospital, and they are really annoyed and upset about that. That The outstanding feature of the actions of candidate's behaviour has been totally the Labor Party candidate for Noosa—and the disgraceful and unacceptable to the people Minister endorsed this with his involvement last involved in that hospital and to the people of Saturday—is that candidate's lack of Cooroy. The candidate for Noosa said in the consultation with the people of Noosa. Over press at the end of May— the past five or six years, many people have been involved in the consultation processes ". . . last Thursday . . . (he) was not put in place by the regional health authority, prepared to elaborate saying the including the director of the Sunshine Coast discussions were private and he did not Regional Health Authority and the people who want to promise anything that he could made themselves available for all those public not deliver." meetings because they had a very strong The discussions that that candidate is said to interest in the delivery of health services in my have had with the board or representatives of electorate. This ratbag Labor Party candidate Noosa District Hospital were so private that the has been running around town making board or those representatives do not know statements but he has not consulted with any anything about them! of those people and he has not offered any In another example of disgraceful detail. Those people who have genuinely behaviour and a total lack of protocol from the been involved in the process for all those years have been ignored by the Labor Party Minister's office, that candidate rang members candidate. of the board asking to attend that meeting. The invitation did not even come from the Mr Elder: With that language, you're Minister's office! The members of the board bleeding. were absolutely insulted to think that an Mr DAVIDSON: I have news for the unelected representative would ring them Minister. He can come into my electorate any without bothering to first ring the chairman of time he likes. He might like to come and talk to the board for approval. That candidate rang the members of the Noosa District Hospital members of the board asking to meet with board who are absolutely disgusted at the way them on Saturday afternoon. Although they in which—— agreed to meet with the Minister, they refused to meet with that candidate. He is certainly on Mr Elder: I give you an ironclad the nose with the members of the board of guarantee that I'll be in your electorate during that hospital! the election campaign. Mr DAVIDSON: I cannot wait! The I do not know the outcome of that Minister can feel free to come to my electorate meeting, but the point that must be made is any time. I will meet him and debate this issue that the Government has failed to deliver a with him at any time and in any forum in my new hospital and extra hospital beds to my electorate. If the Minister wants to turn it on, electorate. As I said, the need for those he should let me know and I will be there. facilities was identified in the strategic plan. The strategic plan went through central office Mr Elder: That would be the only time and the Minister's office, but the Government you would be. was so bloody-minded with politics that it did Mr DAVIDSON: I think that Saturday not put up the funding. The first funding was the only time that the Minister has ever commitment should have been for the been into my electorate. He snuck in Legislative Assembly 12305 8 June 1995 unannounced, trying to do a secret deal, trying document in reply to my question—to cater for to address the issue of health services in my 41,000 people by 2001. I would like to know electorate without giving any commitment. The what the catchment area of the Hervey Bay Minister knows that he cannot deliver a region is now. That should be investigated to commitment on that arrangement at Noosa the fullest extent. District Hospital within six months. The matter As the Minister would be aware, the site has been postponed until after the election. on which the Noosa District Private Hospital is The Minister is waiting to see whether the presently situated is just about built-out and Government loses the election until he walks car parking is very inadequate. The hospital away from those negotiations and those might own one more block of land there. In its commitments. That is the Minister's game. He strategic plan, the regional health authority has politicised the issue of health services in has said that there will be a need for 75 beds my electorate. in 1996, 100 beds by 2001 and, with future Mr Elder: Keep rolling, because this is expansion, up to 130 to 150 beds within the your last speech. Keep rolling. next decade. The Government needs to take Mr DAVIDSON: Don't you worry about notice of that if it is to invest money in that! As I said, the Minister can visit my providing public hospital beds on that site. electorate any time. He just has to let me There is absolutely no spare land on that site. know and I will be there. Since the Labor candidate started this debate, I have received calls from residents who are No detail of this proposal has been concerned about the security of their homes. released. Debate has been raging on the TV, They want to know whether the Government in the newspapers and on the radio, led by the will resume any land and if their homes will be Cooroy clique of the Labor Party, which demolished. These are elderly people who realises that it is coming from behind in have lived in the CBD of Cooroy for many Cooroy. It knows how strong my vote is in years. The Government is scaring them. Cooroy and how popular I am up there with I have written to the Minister twice the locals, who appreciate all the hard work bringing this issue to his attention and that I have done for them over the past three requesting a meeting with him: firstly, on 15 years. The Cooroy Labor clique is attempting March, not long after he was appointed as the to shore up the Labor vote in Cooroy. If the Minister for Health; and, secondly, last week, Government is to be honest, particularly with requesting another meeting with him. I have the answers that the Minister has given to not had a reply to either letter. I have not even questions he has been asked in this House in the last two or three days, in response to received the courtesy of an acknowledgment which he has given the shadow Minister a of those letters. caning over the building of the QE II Hospital Mr Elder: The acknowledgment's gone. which was designed to bolster the re-election Mr DAVIDSON: I have not received an chances of two sitting city members—which is acknowledgment to either letter. If in the exactly what this whole issue up there is coming weeks the Minister is going to use this about— then there is no way in the world that issue to try to gain support for the Labor the Minister could support what is happening candidate in Noosa simply because there is an in Cooroy. election looming, he is only playing cheap A month ago, I asked the Minister a politics on an issue that is very important to question about the Hervey Bay Hospital—and many people in my electorate. The Minister good luck to the member for Hervey Bay; he does not understand or appreciate the need has achieved the construction of a hospital in for beds in my electorate for those people at his electorate. In reply, the Minister told me Yaroomba, Coolum, all through Sunshine that he was building a hospital with a 130-bed Beach, Peregian Beach, Noosa Heads, capacity at Hervey Bay to cater for a Tewantin, Noosaville and out to Cooroy. He is catchment area of 41,000 people. The disadvantaging those people at the southern Minister's regional health authority advised the end of my electorate. It would be easier for Minister's office—this is while the Minister was them to travel to the Nambour Hospital than it in charge of the Business, Industry and would be for them to travel to the Minister's Regional Development portfolio—that the proposed hospital at Cooroy. proposed 75-bed Noosa hospital would cater All the consultants and all of the advice for a catchment of 36,000 people by about given to the Minister's department has 1996. I cannot believe that the Minister is suggested that the hospital—or the provision building a 130-bed hospital in Hervey of beds—should be built in the middle of a Bay—and this comes from the Minister's own catchment area, that is, the 8 June 1995 12306 Legislative Assembly

Noosaville/Tewantin area. The Minister has a Mr Elder: Are they the people who work responsibility to take on board all thoughts and in the community health centre that we built? opinions—firstly and especially the advice of Mr DAVIDSON: They are the people his department—of other people who have who have been genuinely involved in this been involved in this issue for many years. issue for many years. Some of them are long- Mr Nunn: How many years have you serving residents of the town. This is not a been involved? political issue. Mr DAVIDSON: I will take that In closing, I think that we have railroaded interjection. When I ran my business in Noosa the Minister; he has been railroaded by the and the Regional Director for Health, Dr John shadow Minister for Health, Mike Horan. Menzies, was first appointed, as the Chairman Time expired. of Progress Noosa I arranged a meeting with Dr Menzies. Along with two other members of Mr ARDILL (Archerfield) (8.20 p.m.): For my electorate, I drove him all over the region, a non-political issue, this certainly has raised a showing him the growth in the area. We took a lot of fire, not the least of which came from the whole day and we drove him all over the honourable member for Toowoomba South. Sunshine Coast. We wanted the new regional He spoke a lot of nonsense today. Basically, director to see first-hand the growth that was he is a decent person. occurring on the coastal strip. My involvement A Government member: Who said? at that time—that was during 1990-91—was Mr ARDILL: He is, but he has allowed as a businessman and as a member of the blind spot of his politics and his naked Progress Noosa. My involvement was a very ambition to overrule his basic decency in the genuine attempt—this was before I was in way he has dealt with this portfolio as the politics—to ensure that Queensland Health shadow Minister. was aware of the need for improved health services and facilities in that area. Mr Robertson: He can get that blind spot removed down at the QE II. I am very concerned that, at a public Mr ARDILL: I am pleased to hear the meeting last week, Mr McLeod made the member for Sunnybank teaching me about suggestion that if Noosa District Community the hospital in my own area. Hospital did not do a deal with the Government, the Government would provide This Bill is about an indemnity for people private and public beds at in the medical area who could be called to Noosaville/Tewantin. I am concerned at his account for their actions. According to the attempt to hold a gun to their heads in an advice from the Crown Solicitor, the Bill does effort to gain political support on an issue that not change the situation one iota but is is, as I said, very sensitive to many people in necessary from the point of view of my electorate. clarification. Therefore, I support the Bill. Even if the Minister does not want to We can talk about other indemnities. One meet with me after the requests that I have that I hope the Health Minister will consider at made to him, I suggest that the next time he some time in the future is the necessity for visits my electorate he talks to some of the doctors to be given an indemnity when they other non-political people in my area who are issuing certificates, particularly in relation to would like to meet him and discuss this issue. driver's licences. Many doctors are called upon Those people have no faith in the Labor to give or withhold certificates in relation to candidate for Noosa because he raised this driver's licences when people are no longer issue without firstly consulting with them. As I able to exercise the necessary care and said, they have been involved in this attention to their driving. This causes a lot of issue—genuinely involved—for many years. problems, particularly in small communities. That imbecile just ran off to the press, making There is a need to look at that issue at some all sorts of loose statements. He has shown no time in the future. respect for the health carers who work in my The Opposition wants an indemnity from electorate. There are 30 or 40 people involved 32 years—from 1957 to 1989—of total neglect in the delivery of health services and health of the hospital system. Nobody pretends that care in my electorate. The Labor candidate did the hospital system, which is the Labor Party's not have the decency to meet with them, free hospital system, is perfect nor that it is consult with them and ask them their opinions operating at maximum efficiency. The Labor and their attitudes. They are the people with Party introduced the free hospital system in whom the Minister should meet; they are the Queensland—a first for Australia—in the people the Minister should talk to. Forgan-Smith era. With the efforts of Ned Legislative Assembly 12307 8 June 1995

Hanlon, who was the Health Minister and to provide funding, staff, decent facilities and eventually the Premier, that hospital system equipment, which was of a Third World functioned very well up until the time when the standard, yet the Opposition did nothing about National Party and the Liberal Party came to that in all the years it was in Government. power. They were philosophically and In the last five years under the Labor trenchantly opposed to that system. It is not Government, spending on hospitals, and on by accident that immediately they came into the health system generally, has increased by power they started the downgrading and 50 per cent. Last year $2.4 billion was spent, neglect of that system, which went on for 32 so that is a 50 per cent increase on an already years. significant amount—not a minor amount as we I am here tonight because of the outrage saw in the meagre funds provided by the I feel at the criticism that the Labor Party is Nationals for some areas such as the getting now that it is back on the Treasury environment. The Health budget was a major benches and is doing something about the item, despite the fact that the Opposition neglect of those 32 years. If one listened to never provided enough. The Opposition will the Opposition spokesperson on Health, one claim that that 50 per cent increase in the would swear those 32 years never happened budget is taken up on bureaucrats, which is and that the present situation is something absolute nonsense. Today, there are 200 that has occurred since the Labor Party came fewer bureaucrats in the whole system, into power. As a person who went through that including at head office and in the regions, system during those 32 years of disgraceful than there were when we took over. That is a neglect, I can tell honourable members clear statement of fact which is accepted by differently. everybody, except the National Party and the Liberal Party. Twice in the 1960s I went to the PA Hospital for surgery. On one occasion I had a We have diversified the provision of cancer removed from alongside my eye. I was administration into the areas where services treated in day surgery. When the operation are needed, and we have also sent was completed, I was invited to stand up. I experts,who were previously at head office, buckled at the knees and they asked me if I throughout the State. The Opposition criticises was able to stand. I replied that I was and they this Government for setting up a structure in said, "There are no beds available for you, so the regions, which amazes almost everybody you will have to move out. Away you go." I in Queensland who knows anything about this called a taxi and went to work. They took one subject. There are now 3,000 more people look at me there and called another taxi to being treated in the hospital system every take me home. There was blood streaming all week than there were five years ago when the over me and I certainly was not in a fit Opposition was in power. Members of the condition to be moving around under my own Opposition ignore that, and so does the steam. That happened because of a shortage majority of the media. Some television of beds in the 1960s. channels are only too pleased to feature certain people, the rubbish they talk and the On another occasion I went to the PA hypocrisy in which they indulge. Hospital during the National/Liberal Party Where was the Opposition for 32 years? I control of the system. I was suspected of know it was not in the hospital system. My having appendicitis and was put in a ward with three sons were born in the Royal Women's about 20 other men with similar symptoms. Hospital in Brisbane. It was an excellent Our conditions were not considered to be hospital, but even then it had poor equipment urgent because apparently there was a virus and poor staffing. However, the people who going around at the time, so we were not worked in that system made it work and it was treated but were put in a ward to see what the only place to go. The Opposition now would happen. One of the men in my ward denies all the problems that existed. Obviously happened to have appendicitis. His appendix they never saw the public hospital system as ruptured because there were no doctors we, the ordinary people who had to suffer it, available to treat him. He ended up with did. I went up to the PA Hospital on numerous peritonitis and was in a terrible state. occasions before Medicare when I could not This was not the general situation, just as afford to go to a private doctor and on the problems that Mr Horan gets up here and numerous occasions I waited there from 8 talks about day after day are not the norm o'clock in the morning until 5 o'clock in the today. Those sort of situations occurred afternoon and then went home. That was the because of downright neglect and the failure norm. 8 June 1995 12308 Legislative Assembly

For Dr Senewiratne to take photos of what outpatient and I have also had to go there in is occurring at PA Hospital right now showing an ambulance. The service was fairly good but crowded conditions in that casualty area is I could not say it was the top type of service absolutely ridiculous, because what has that we are hearing about today. It certainly changed? There are actually more people was never like that. In all my time in this House going through the system and therefore a lot and previously I received numerous of them are at the PA Hospital. But in point of complaints about the service at QE II. So let fact, the scenes that he showed on that video us not hear the nonsense as we heard from are no different at all from what I saw there on that good doctor today that everything was the numerous occasions when I went up there rosy at QE II under the Opposition's tutelage. myself or with members of my family—no It was not. different at all. It was exactly the same, with people on trolleys parked in the passageways. Ms Spence: It was half closed then. That was exactly the situation under the Mr ARDILL: That is right. Half of the Opposition's leadership. floors were closed. They never used the Mr FitzGerald: What did you do about second floor. It was always vacant. I opposed it? as much as anybody the transfer of the maternity section from that hospital. Sooner Mr ARDILL: Under your leadership. rather than later I hope to see maternity back Mr FitzGerald: What are you doing there again. There is no way that all of the now? facilities provided in a large general hospital can be provided at that hospital. I was Mr ARDILL: What is being done about listening to a specialist from the college of it? The whole place is being renewed and surgeons when I was down south recently millions of dollars will be put into it. From this talking about hospitals of excellence. He said Budget you will see a change in that hospital. that in big cities such as Sydney, Brisbane and But do we get any credit for that? Not at all! Melbourne it is foolish to try to provide all of Honourable members opposite look at what is the services at every hospital. He said that there today and say that it should have what we are doing in Brisbane is on the right changed in five years. A major hospital is not track, to provide hospitals of excellence in one rebuilt in five years, but honourable members location, in one particular type of activity and opposite had plenty of time to fix it in the 32 to move people to that hospital of excellence. years of neglect—of wilful neglect—during their He said that that is where the doctors want to time in office. It was a disgrace. It is an be, where they get the experience of handling absolute disgrace that they presided over that all those cases, and that makes sense. wilful neglect of 32 years and that they now come in here and criticise us for not waving But honourable members opposite do not the magic wand, for not changing National give any credit for that. They talk about Party sepia to glorious technicolour in a couple providing all of this excellence in every of years. They want to see something from the hospital, no matter how small, right around the Wizard of Oz but they are not getting it and metropolitan area. They are flying in the face cannot get it. What they will see is gradual of the advice from specialists, and senior change. There is a lot of change already. specialists at that. The good doctor said that the QE II Hospital is not being used. That is Honourable members opposite should nonsense. It is certainly not the busy place it have a look at the Royal Brisbane Hospital was when it had a medical ward which was the and see what has happened in the five years back-up for the front line people at casualty. that we have been in charge. Change is But one of the reasons why so few people are occurring. Look at the new hospitals that have arriving at casualty at that hospital is that Mr been built where they are needed, out in the Horan, people like Mr O'Keefe and certainly suburbs that are developing such as every Liberal Party candidate who has been Caboolture, Logan City and in the regional anywhere near QE II Hospital have areas which again they neglected. Ask the promulgated the idea that the hospital is either member for Hervey Bay. He has achieved. closing or has closed. They have destroyed What did any of the honourable members confidence in the hospital. It is providing the opposite do? same casualty facilities that it has always What did honourable members opposite provided, particularly at weekends. It just does do in Toowoomba in all the time that they not treat people who are going through were in power? Absolutely nothing! Let us talk casualty and will later need in-patient care. about the QE II Hospital. It is in my area. I Those patients are taken to the nearest have had personal experience of it as an hospital. Legislative Assembly 12309 8 June 1995

I heard somebody say something about a important issue in the lead-up to the election, patient from Logan City who was taken to PA only three speakers from the Opposition side Hospital. I would like to know why that have spoken on this piece of legislation. I particular patient was directed to PA when he repeat that only three members of the should have gone to Logan? I think Opposition spoke during the debate on this honourable members opposite really should legislation, and for the majority of the debate address that particular problem. They have no more than three Opposition members were tried to downgrade Logan. They have in the Chamber. On a number of occasions succeeded in downgrading QE II by destroying during the hours that this debate has people's confidence in it. That is still ensued—and it began at approximately a continuing. I want to tell people that that quarter to four—Mr Horan has been sitting on hospital is up and running, and it will be the Opposition side by himself. That shows operating to an even greater degree when the honourable members where the members of ophthalmic unit is put on the fifth floor in the the Opposition really stand on what they see near future. It is certainly treating people in the as the most important issue in the coming 30 neuro-rehabilitation beds. They were stolen election. Only three of the members opposite from a beautiful ward at the PA! It has were interested enough in the subject to make changed a lot since I was there. The geriatric a contribution or to spend time in the House ward was not beautiful! The floor which was during the debate. I will return to some of the the medical floor now has operating theatres points that were raised by those opposite and up and running. They are not closed down at by members of the Government after I have all. QE II has four operating theatres providing spoken about the legislation itself. elective surgery. I want to say that I am totally The purpose of the Bill is to repeal a with the Minister and the department in provision of the Health Services Act 1991, changing at least a section of QE II over to which provides for indemnity for employees, elective surgery. It is a great idea. Instead of members and agents of regional health being sent home, as many of us have authorities. The Bill also provides for routine experienced, day after day they can go to that machinery amendments to improve the quality hospital and know they are going to be of the statute. The repeal of section 3.35 treated, and that is a great innovation which follows concerns by health practitioners that was never there under the Nationals. that particular section may prohibit the State As I said, more than 3,000 people per from providing indemnity where an employee week over and above the number the has been negligent. I do not see that that is Nationals were treating five years ago are the case, but that is the perception. The going through the public hospital system. It is SPSFQ, the Full-time Medical Specialists only natural that crowding is occurring and that Association of Queensland, the AMA, the a lot still remains to be done. I have every Medical Superintendents Association of confidence in this Government to deliver, to Queensland and the medical defence make sure that in the near future we will see a organisations have all been consulted. They great change in the system and that elective know my view on that section. I have surgery lists will be reduced. consulted widely in relation to this Hon. J. P. ELDER (Capalaba—Minister amendment. That is why I was prepared to for Health) (8.40 p.m.), in reply: Before I deal introduce it and have it passed by the House. with the piece of legislation before the House, The statutory protection of section 3.35 I thank all those who contributed to the has operated in conjunction with the debate, particularly the members from this Government's indemnity policy and the side of the House, because it gave us as a Government's indemnity guidelines. The policy Government an opportunity to put right the acknowledges that many Crown employees untruths that have been peddled by the have difficult and delicate responsibilities and Opposition—in particular, the member for that they may be exposed to claims of Toowoomba South—over the last few months. damages. It is the policy rather than section I suppose it illustrates where honourable 3.35 that is utilised where neglect is alleged. members opposite actually stand on Health. However, the repeal of the section will remove Even though this is a small amendment, it is the perception that public sector medical an important one. practitioners are not indemnified in this State. The debate on this legislation gave It is a perception. That is of particular honourable members opposite an opportunity importance for recruitment, especially in to discuss a range of health issues. I think it is provincial and rural communities. important to note that although the Opposition As has been articulated by members of says that it considers health to be the most the Government, the four-point plan that I 8 June 1995 12310 Legislative Assembly outlined prior to the Budget called The I would like to know where the Opposition Immediate Need announced a $30m package stands on this issue. I would like to see some of incentives to recruit and retain full-time consistency. I have seen the message specialists and medical superintendents in bubbling up in weekly columns. Someone in metropolitan, provincial and rural areas. We the press must say to those members, "Quick, did a lot of work on that package, and I am still criticise the Government about cars, but don't listening to and talking with the medical tell them it is for doctors." The line is run and, profession to ensure that we can make better of course, we read it. I will be writing to every gains and that it actually achieves its medical superintendent, and I will make sure objectives. that our candidates write to every medical What I saw the other day from a member superintendent, outlining that criticism. of the National Party really amazed me. In the It will be interesting to see whether Mr package, we propose a range of non-award Horan actually takes a stance on this issue incentives such as motor vehicles, within the next two days. In fact, I challenge communications equipment, administrative him to do so. I challenge him to actually support and other components that we are support or criticise a member of the Opposition currently developing such as extra payments for his criticisms of the package that has been in lieu of private practice. We examined the designed to retain medical specialists or issue of indemnity. I have been talking to medical superintendents. I do not think I will specialists about a whole range of other hear a whimper because the member knows incentives—in particular, specialist training that on this issue I am right, and he knows positions—to improve opportunities for them. that on this issue I have the support of the The package is designed, particularly in the specialists, medical superintendents and rural case of specialists, to overcome the doctors. disincentives of working in the public sector Mr McGrady: You are right on most system. So I was surprised to see a member issues. of the Opposition, particularly the member for Mr ELDER: I have been right on every Charters Towers, criticising the purchase of issue to date and he has been wrong on every vehicles for doctors and the purchase of issue to date, but that has been par for the telecommunications equipment for doctors course since I have been Minister. and saying that it was propping up bureaucrats and that it was not going to help The shadow Minister raised the question those in rural communities—rural communities of what is meant by contractors or consultants. that many on this side of the Chamber I am happy to clarify that point. The confusion represent. That is just nonsense. It is an probably arose because the term "consultant" initiative designed to retain and attract is often used in a health context when specialists and medical superintendents— referring to a specialist medical practitioner. people who the members opposite have been However, the Queensland Health indemnity policy clearly states that, in this context, saying we have problems attracting to rural "consultants" does not refer to specialist areas. medical practitioners. In the context of the The Government put forward a package policy, "consultants" does not refer to of non-award incentives to attract suitable specialist medical staff; it refers to consultants people, and we considered the indemnity that we may have employed to prepare draft issue. As sure as night follows day and day plans or to conduct some other activity. follows night, out come the members of the Consultants are those organisations and those Opposition with criticism. In this case, the individuals who perform tasks from time to criticism is targeted at their own doctors. They time. That seemed to be the only issue that criticise the system continually and, as they do the honourable member raised that related to so, they criticise the integrity of doctors and the legislation. The Bill is fairly simple. It is nurses within the system. This is just another straightforward. It repeals a provision in the Act good example of pig-headedness, because and ensures that indemnity is provided. that member is cutting off his nose to spite his The rest of the honourable member's face. He is prepared to do that to his own contribution was the typical tiresome community of Charters Towers. This package scaremongering. I will go through some of the provides an opportunity to attract medical staff issues that he raised. My colleagues have to rural areas, and all that the honourable quite clearly articulated where the honourable member can do is criticise the move to provide member has been misleading people and support for doctors in the form of vehicles and where he has been wrong. Regionalisation is telecommunication packages. the best example, and the members for Legislative Assembly 12311 8 June 1995

Chermside, Fitzroy and a number of others on "The then Queensland Health this side of the House spoke about Department's centralised bureaucracy regionalisation and what it has achieved in vested all legal responsibility for the terms of ensuring autonomy in the regions conduct of hospitals in the boards but with and ensuring that the decision-making process machiavellian expertise deprived them of is based in the regions. The shadow Minister any real power by holding the purse has said that he will scrap regional authorities, strings." the community representatives and the In other words, a centralised bureaucracy. In structure that underpins regionalisation other words, an acknowledgment by Dr Robert because he does not believe that it results in Hodge of the folly of going back to a community consultation. centralised health system and of the folly of Fortunately, as has been outlined by a the Opposition's policy, which is about the only number of Government members, some policy that it has put forward on this occasion. National Party candidates believe that the As to QE II Hospital, I thank the member Government is right and are prepared to put for Archerfield and the member for Sunnybank their name and their money where their mouth for correcting the wrongs of the absolutely is, that is, they are prepared to serve on outrageous statements about the QE II from regional health authorities. I commend them the Opposition and from Opposition for that, because it takes a pretty strong candidates in that area. The member for person to take on one's party when one Toowoomba South spoke about cutbacks at believes that one is right. They believe that the QE II. If anything, this hospital is a regionalisation is the best delivery mechanism monument to poor planning by the previous and they want to play a role in achieving what National Party Government. We went through is best for their region because they know that the reasons why it was there. The National the regions are autonomous, that decisions Party Government built it, as it built a whole are made in the regions, and that the system range of small 40-bed community hospitals. is working well. I commend the National Party Members would know the ones to which I candidates for Mulgrave and Cook, because it refer—"Forty beds, do it in a National Party is a good, sound vote of confidence in our electorate, but leave it at that." Members system. should ask Joan Sheldon why the Caloundra Hospital was left the way it was. The National Mr Bredhauer interjected. Party Government had no intention of doing Mr ELDER: I will take that interjection. anything with the Caloundra Hospital. The That is the only thing that they have been right Nambour Hospital was always going to be a about today. Although it might be a small tertiary hospital. The previous Government concession on their part, when the Opposition said, "Give them the hospital at Caloundra." It makes such a concession, we should support was a good little 40 bedder. The same it. occurred at Hervey Bay—"Give them the 40 bedder. That will calm them down. That will win A Government member: They're the seat at the election." In fact, I note that learning. the National Party candidate for the seat of Mr ELDER: They are learning. Hervey Bay does not want a new hospital in Regionalisation replaced a system of Hervey Bay. management that was straight out of the Mr Nunn: Mr Horan said we didn't need 1930s. The concept of hospital boards and it. We have a perfectly good one up the road the way they were run by the National Party at Maryborough. Government was straight out of the 1930s. Mr ELDER: So Mr Horan endorsed it, When we were elected, the management and Mr Nioa supported it. systems for Health and the lack of service provision and the lack of equity in service Mr Nunn: He changed his mind. provision made the system a laughing-stock. Mr ELDER: One of them has changed Now, the Opposition says that it will go back to his mind, but then they change their minds on that same system. It says, "We will go back to a regular basis. the way we used to do business." Opposition members interjected. I think it is salutary to note that, at the Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Briskey): recent annual general meeting of the AMA, Order! The Minister will be heard. the outgoing AMA president, Dr Robert Mr ELDER: Thank you, Mr Deputy Hodge, when referring to the National Party Speaker. The truth hurts and the Opposition administration of Health stated— has been known to squeal long and loud 8 June 1995 12312 Legislative Assembly when we start to land the punches that count. out there. His conduits are drying up, and There will be a few more in the next 16 when he comes in here and complains, that is minutes. When the QE II opened, it had an music to my ears. occupancy rate of 28 per cent, and floors were Mr Fenlon, the member for Greenslopes, left vacant. At least under this Government the referred to the Princess Alexandra Hospital. role of QE II as a specialist hospital will be This Government will get on and rebuild it. enhanced. We will be enhancing its role as a Another lie from the Opposition was that teaching hospital and we will be creating an theatres at the PA have been closed. Those opportunity for it to become a centre of PA theatres have been running full bore. Last excellence in elective surgery. We will at least week, I was out at the hospital talking to put appropriate planning in place for the south people about the pressure on PA theatres. side of Brisbane. But that does not stop the Opposition. Why Mr Beattie spent some time referring to should the truth get in the way of a good the Royal Brisbane Hospital. When I became story? The Opposition has been allowing that the Health Minister, it was one of the first to occur over the last few months. The hospitals I visited. It is the largest in Australia Government will get on and supply radiology and, under this Government, it will be rebuilt. equipment, it will rebuild the accident and In fact, I can say that the master planning is emergency section and it will provide support well under way. It will be one of the first major for the ICU. hospitals rebuilt once this Government is re- We know that the Opposition has one elected. We will get on and rebuild the policy, and that is to take away the autonomy metropolitan campuses. They are big of people in regional areas and to centralise projects—a $650m program across health. The Opposition spokesman advocates metropolitan hospitals. I can say that $40m going back to a voluntary community council. has been brought forward in my package—I Who is going to run the $130m budget in the will not mention the Budget—to do just that. peninsula and far north health authorities? A I have been criticised—and this hurts the voluntary community council? We know that Opposition—for putting together a corporate that equals a National Party ticket. That is sector board to help me in that task. Sir Llew what used to happen. At least the National Edwards has been appointed to that board. Party candidates in the north know that. But The Opposition has criticised him long and wait for it, recently, another little sneak of a loud, but he has taken a position on the policy announcement came from Mr Horan board. He knows what is required. He knows when he addressed a nursing meeting the that the Government is heading in the right other day. direction. He wants to participate. However, as Mr FitzGerald: Ha, ha!. soon as he put his name to that board, the criticism from the Opposition was long and Mr ELDER: Well might the member for loud. Trevor Reddacliff and Judith Lockyer laugh, because I think that this is Maestracci—people who I believe have good rather humorous. Mr Horan started to say what private sector skills—will also have a significant the Opposition would be doing in terms of input into helping me deliver that program. I policy initiatives for nurses. I paid special am prepared to work with them and rebuild the attention to that. Let me state where the RBH and the PA. Government stands on some issues which have been announced already. I have already Mr Beattie spoke about the $3m given a personal undertaking to the equipment upgrade. He also spoke about Queensland Nurses Union, the Director of what we will be doing in terms of opening the Nursing and nurses throughout the State that I theatres and tackling the waiting lists. Those will appoint a senior nurse clinical policy theatres will do just that; they will be targeted adviser at an SES level at the Department of to undertake 2,700 elective surgery operations Health. I have announced that already out in the next 12 months. Those procedures are there in the constituency. Previously, under targeted directly at those people who have the old tripartite system of management there been waiting for elective surgery. existed the position of chief nursing officer. It Mr Horan: You were doing it last year was a token position without any real power. It before you closed the theatres. existed so that the previous National Party Mr ELDER: The member does not like Government could say, "There is a chief it, because the Government is meeting the nurse. We are looking after your interests." immediate need. The member can squeal Of course, regionalisation has meant that long and loud. I appreciate it. It is music to my most of those top-level jobs have been ears, because I know that he is losing touch opened up to nurses so they will be able to Legislative Assembly 12313 8 June 1995 play a more pro-active role in the spoke about that policy package today. The management of the system. They are not Opposition's policy states— being seen as a token element of the health "A special package for rural and system as they were under the National Party remote nurses to ensure security, Government. I have already said that we will improved standards of accommodation have that position in place. Surprise, surprise, and remote area service incentive and the Opposition's commitment—— relief." Mr Horan interjected. We have already done that. I thank the Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Briskey): Opposition Health spokesman for his entire Order! The Minister is not taking interjections. endorsement of our nursing policy. At least on The member will cease interjecting. this issue we are as one. I am sure that the honourable member will go into the election Mr ELDER: The member does not like it endorsing me and the plans that have already when I have him on toast. Today the member been put into practice. announced, "As one of the initiatives of the Opposition, our policy will be to reinstate the I am always one to give a sucker an even position of chief nurse." That has been done break and one who takes a bipartisan already. I thank the member for the approach to politics. I am prepared to start endorsement. On page 11 of the Health releasing policies—and we have been doing Action Plan that I released it is stated that this that—even quicker and on a daily basis so Government will include a staff relief program that the Opposition Health spokesman has to cover the replacement of remote area something to announce the next day. After I nurses undertaking annual leave and talk to the Premier tomorrow and say that it is professional leave. The policy announced by probably in our interests to do that, the Mr Horan today was that the Opposition will honourable member can rest assured that I introduce a nurse locum service for rural will send the press statement directly to his nurses to provide relief in remote areas and office so that he can endorse it for release the opportunities for training and attending training next day. courses. That has been done. Again, I thank I turn to the contribution from the member the honourable member for the endorsement for Noosa, who made a few remarks about the of the policy. I appreciate that. Noosa hospital. I refer to page 10 of the Health Action A Government member: He has to be Plan and the three-year, $6m nursing work smarting. force management program that will be Mr ELDER: He is smarting; he has to be introduced to improve the range and level of hurting. The member for Noosa mentioned the nursing skills available in our hospitals. That name Ross McLeod, the candidate for Noosa, program will increase the supply of specialist at least 10 times in his 20-minute speech. nurses available in our large hospitals That candidate must really be making an throughout the State, encourage the re-entry impact; all the honourable member spoke of nurses into the nursing profession and about was Ross McLeod, the candidate for assist the transition to work of new graduate Noosa. The honourable member has to be nurses. That is the Government's policy. The hurting. Opposition's policy was announced today. It The draft services plan for that region is states— still with central Health. We are going through "Higher procedural training so nurses a second period of consultation in relation to can acquire skills necessary for certain that plan. Any of the work that has been done clinical practices in remote areas. on strategies in relation to the provision of a hospital in Noosa will be part of that draft A boost to nurse specialist training in services plan. Because of the demographics in hospitals, such as in intensive care, renal Noosa, the likelihood of a major hospital being care and theatre procedures." built there is some years away. The member That has been done. has stuck out his neck; he is hurting and Mr Nunn: You've impressed him. bleeding all over the place. I am surprised that he does not support a position which would Mr ELDER: There is another see the private and public sector playing a endorsement of a Government policy. joint role in the delivery of health-care systems. I refer to the Health Action Plan and the Ross McLeod and I are at one on this $6.1m incentive package to be introduced to issue. Since I came into the Health Ministry, attract and retain nurses in remote areas. I from day one I said that I would support 8 June 1995 12314 Legislative Assembly private and public sector collocation and lesser extent at Nambour—and cooperation in terms of delivering health-care developing and extending them is a much services. Mr McLeod was pretty forward more sensible and practical alternative thinking when he decided to take on the issue than building a brand new hospital." locally. He certainly hurt the honourable They are the opinion makers. I rest my case. member for Noosa. I will not drag out the pain The honourable member for Noosa has a for the honourable member, but I will add that problem in his electorate. That was his last I wrote to those board members; I did not ring speech in this House, and it was not a classic. them, I wrote to them. Let me outline the facts. They accepted my invitation. When I I refer to the case of a young spina bifida went to the meeting, I did not expect anyone patient who was mentioned by the honourable else to be there other than the board member for Keppel, Mr Lester. I have thought members, the CEO and me. about that case and have compassion for that young person. However, I must correct a few If the honourable member for Noosa of the statements that the member made. No thinks that Ross McLeod and I are wrong and previous air travel has been provided under that the honourable member is right—to the Patient Transfer Scheme—PTS; so the disabuse him of that perception I will quote member was wrong about that. I am not from an editorial in the Sunshine Coast Daily, saying that such travel was not needed; I am because it provides an interesting insight into simply saying that the member's statement the views of people on the north coast. It was incorrect. states— A treating medical officer, that is, a non- "Noosa mayor Noel Playford might hospital practitioner, and the Director of not be reflecting general local opinion Medical Services at the Rockhampton Base when he describes as 'lunacy' a proposal Hospital both independently assessed the for another hospital in Noosa—but he is case at the request of the regional office and absolutely right." the media. They knew that Mr Lester would The mayor had made a comment about joint attempt to promote the case. That young facilities and using and maximising resources. person received a proper and close The editorial continued— assessment from clinical practitioners, both of "The push for a new hospital in whom were satisfied that that mum and her Noosa has been around for years— son would not be adversely affected by the trip invariably gathering pace at election time in a bus or some other form of transport. What when political candidates of all the local newspaper neglected to state was persuasions call for its approval. that the case had been assessed by two doctors. I had offered to reassess the case for But it's just not on. A new hospital in future referrals for specialist treatment in Noosa is neither needed, nor affordable. Brisbane. I intervened to ask for information Mr Playford this week suggested the from those specialists. Noosa District Hospital at Cooroy could Mr Lester went on to talk about this adequately sustain extra public beds, Government's lack of commitment to the particularly given the declining number of Patient Transfer Scheme. That is absolute people seeking private health cover. nonsense. In 1988, the former Government That line of thinking reflects the views spent $6m on the PTS. Last year—and we of Health Minister Jim Elder, who has have got greater call for it this year—we spent been speaking with growing enthusiasm $14m on the PTS. So that exposes the folly of of combining private and public hospitals the member's claim that this Government is within a single facility. neglecting those people. In addition, we have been providing support in the regions. I refer That is the answer to Noosa's to the flying specialists who go to rural and hospital needs—at least in the short to remote Queensland and other places in the medium term. The region does not have west of the State. I refer to our providing the population to support two hospitals in services in north Queensland such as such close proximity. And it would be oncology and cardiac services. In other words, sheer extravagance to construct a new we are providing services so that we do not building when funds are so urgently have to transport people from those areas. In needed in other areas of medical and addition, we are providing far more funds to health. cater for the needs of those patients than was Taking advantage of the facilities the case under the former National Party already available at Cooroy—and to a administration in this State. Legislative Assembly 12315 8 June 1995

I could go on and on dealing with the the service. In terms of the policy—it is with litany of lies that members have heard from Justice now. The interim Queensland health the Opposition in respect of health care over policy has been resolved with the health the past few months. I know it is late, and I will professionals and others in terms of the have an opportunity to address this issue wording, because we took the intent of the again tomorrow during question time when the original wording in 1991 and incorporated that honourable member asks me a question. No into the new policy. matter what the question is about, I look Clause 14, as read, agreed to. forward to it and a few others that might be asked from the other side of the House. I am Clauses 15 to 19, as read, agreed to. looking forward to the day when the Bill reported, without amendment. honourable member spends the whole of question time asking questions of the Health Minister, and I hope tomorrow is it. Third Reading Time expired. Bill, on motion of Mr Elder, by leave, read a third time. Motion agreed to.

NATIVE TITLE (QUEENSLAND) Committee AMENDMENT BILL Hon. J. P. Elder (Capalaba—Minister for Second Reading Health) in charge of the Bill. Debate resumed from 24 May (see Clauses 1 to 13, as read, agreed to. p. 11877). Clause 14— Mr HOBBS (Warrego) (9.15 p.m.): It is Mr HORAN (9.11 p.m.): This clause my pleasure to speak to the Native Title relates to the section to be omitted, and it will (Queensland) Amendment Bill. This Bill place the onus back on departmental policy to continues this Government's extraordinary be used in the case of litigation. I ask the record on this extraordinary legislation. First, Minister: what is the state of that policy? I we had the Goss Government passing understand that it is being redeveloped. Is the legislation ahead of the Commonwealth Native policy on litigation finished? Is the Minister Title Act, which made the need for able to give us some information about it? amendments automatic. We passed mirroring During his reply, the Minister referred to legislation before we had the mirror. That was consultants in response to my asking whether obviously back to front and reflected the the indemnity provision covers everybody. I eagerness of the Government to jump on want to be sure that it covers people such as board the Prime Minister's bandwagon. agency nurses, private dentists working within We then had the extraordinary decision of the public health system who have been the Government not to enact its legislation contracted under the Commonwealth general pending fulfilment by the Commonwealth of a dental program, and the consultants who work series of requirements set down by the at the regional health offices. Another Premier in his second-reading speech to the innovation is the use of obstetric contractors Native Title (Queensland) Bill in December such as those being used at Maryborough, 1993. When the Government did move Hervey Bay and Caboolture. Are those towards enactment with a series of variants to the standard full-time staff, amendments last year, none of the key part-time staff, VMOs and so forth—such as concerns of the Premier had been satisfied, agency nurses, obstetrics contractors, private but we went ahead with those amendments dentists and consultants who work in the and their enactment, anyway. regional authorities—covered by the indemnity So now we have more amendments. We provision? are told that they are procedural and are Mr ELDER: I said earlier—and I think required to bring provisions of the Native Title that the member understood this—that the (Queensland) Act regarding the Queensland consultants were those who would actually Native Title Tribunal in line with requirements undertake that other independent work. In of the Commonwealth Act in order that our terms of the classes of people that the tribunal can be recognised under the Act. It member just mentioned—for their public work, should be noted that one of the reasons the they will be covered. The range of indemnity Premier would not agree to enact his native that is covered is normally negotiated when title legislation was that he was dissatisfied they negotiate a contract with us to provide with the Commonwealth's proposal in relation 8 June 1995 12316 Legislative Assembly to the financial support of the State body. We or otherwise by the tribunal—will, by definition, did not get the financial support that the alert those who may wish to make a claim for Premier wanted, but he went ahead, anyway. title. Claimants obviously are well catered for. Pending a satisfactory response from the However, the boot appears to be on the other Minister on some key points, the Opposition foot for non-claimant applicants or other will not oppose the Bill. If we are to have interested parties in relation to knowledge of native title legislation, then clearly it is in the claimant applications. best interests of Queenslanders for us to The legislation indicates that claims will retain control of this process to the greatest not appear on the Native Title Register until degree possible. Nobody should kid they have been accepted. In other words, themselves, however, about the degree of interested parties may not be made aware of autonomy that this legislation presents the claims until they are accepted, whereas Queensland Native Title Tribunal. These potential title claimants would appear to be in amendments are about bringing the a position of knowing of a non-claimant Queensland process into line with the application as soon as it is lodged. If this is the Commonwealth process so that the case, then there is no level playing field for Queensland Native Title Tribunal, for all those Queenslanders whose properties and practical purposes, will be one and the same livelihoods could be affected by a claimant as the National Native Title Tribunal. application. I seek the Minister's views on that matter. Can he guarantee that applications will The qualification of not so much our be advertised on a fair basis and that a fair go support but lack of opposition to this legislation will be given to all parties? If that issue is relates to the potential double standards that it satisfactorily resolved, the Opposition will not represents. We have no trouble with one of oppose these amendments. If we do not the three key elements of this Bill, that is, the receive satisfactory explanations and an amendment to ensure that the notification assurance of a level playing field, the period given by the Queensland Native Title amendments will be opposed. Tribunal to persons potentially affected by an accepted application for native title will run for I also want to talk about the Goss the same time as the notification period for the Government's record on Aboriginal native title public. There is no problem with that. But we legislation and Aboriginal affairs generally in do see a possible conflict in relation to the Queensland. That record is not good. The potential interplay between the remaining two Government has raised expectations that went features of the Bill. well beyond its charter. It has not been able to deliver. It promised the Aboriginal people land, One seeks to ensure that a non-claimant a better land title, royalties, a better lifestyle, application in the Queensland Native Title better self-government and independence. It Tribunal is not taken to be unopposed where a has not delivered. The Goss Government has claimant application is subsequently made in spoken with a forked tongue. Aboriginal relation to the same area in the National people do not have the promised land, they Native Title Tribunal. I seek from the Minister do not have a better land title, they do not an indication that we are dealing here with the have the royalties, they do not have a better one process; in other words, that the lifestyle, they do not have better self- subsequent claim to which the legislation government and they do not have the refers is in the context of a genuine claimant independence that the Government promised. application. Obviously, we could not support a For the first time, we saw with our very own situation in which a decided non-claimant eyes Aboriginals tearing down the front doors application which determines native title does of Parliament House. That did not happen not exist is then superseded by a claim which under a National Party Government; it purports that native title does exist, whether it happened under a Labor Government. The is lodged with the National Native Title Tribunal Opposition can almost rest its case. The or not. I seek the Minister's guidance on that. Government has raised expectations within a The other major element of this amending community—it does not matter what legislation is to ensure that not only those community—and it has not been able to details of native title claims which have been deliver those expectations. accepted by the Queensland Native Title Let us look at where we are today. Tribunal or the National Native Title Tribunal Thanks to Keating and Goss, this great nation are entered onto the Queensland Native Title is divided. There is animosity, particularly Register. The potential conflict—the potential between black and white, but—and worst of double standard—is this: clearly, any all—there is terrific animosity between black non-claimant application—ultimately accepted and black. Government members who sit back Legislative Assembly 12317 8 June 1995 in their chairs and their nice comfortable Mr Johnson: I don't think they're homes in Brisbane do not understand the real rumours; I think they're fact. issues. A few members of the Government Mr HOBBS: As the member for Gregory may understand the real issues, but it has not says, they could be fact. Federal Police are got through to the rest of them. There is visiting Charleville today, and they will be serious animosity amongst the blacks and the investigating all sorts of things, such as Government has not been able to come to missing funds. I understand that books have grips with that problem. Until the Government been confiscated from some areas and that understands the Aboriginal culture properly, irregularities in voting have been uncovered. not just on an emotional basis, it will not be The Government is creating an expectation able to solve the problems of the Aboriginal within Aboriginal people that they are virtually people. beyond the law of the land. The Government has thrown money at the problem, as it has thrown money at health Let us look at the situation today. and education, and what has happened? It Recently, a couple of Aussies, Tom and made a mess of it. The Government threw Wendy Chapman, were granted approval to money at the Department of Aboriginal and build a bridge to Hindmarsh Island. There was Islander Affairs, and what has happened? It a land claim lodged in that vicinity, for has got worse. Are there better health whatever reason. There could have been a standards now than there were before? Is logical reason; I have no problem with that. there a better lifestyle out there for Aboriginal People can lodge a land claim if they believe people? Are there better educational that there is a need for that. It seemed that opportunities? the bridge was going to get the okay because the claim and the reasons for that claim were Mr T. B. Sullivan: Yes. not sufficient to halt the building of that bridge. Mr HOBBS: There are not, and the However, inspired by the Keatings and Gosses honourable member knows that there are not. of Australia, someone conspired to invent a If Government members think that there are, story of secret women's business. The Federal they are absolutely wrong. The Government Minister, Robert Tickner, announced a 25-year has been on a spending spree. ATSIC is a ban on any bridge in that area. Of course, that good example of what the Government does has virtually sent those two people who were not do. It is an open chequebook, at the going to build a commercial structure within taxpayers' expense, that has been given to a Australia to the financial wall. Any construction few people. This was done with good in that area has been banned completely for intentions, but the end result has been a 25 years. mess. There is no accountability. What other Government funding is there that does not Can honourable members guess what require accountability? What other funding is happened next? Since then, people have there where taxpayers' money is spent in the come out and said that they in fact did millions—virtually billions—every year and conspire to lodge this claim and that the whole there is no accountability? The Government is claim was a fabrication. Today, two separate going about solving this problem the wrong inquiries were announced: one by the Federal way. Government to look at the Hindmarsh affair and a royal commission to investigate the The Government is fast building an matter from the South Australian perspective. apartheid system in Queensland and One must ask: how did the matter get this far Australia. It is doing it here; we can see it. Let in the first place and how could people us look at the health system, for instance. The conspire to defraud a Government, with its Government is building an apartheid health enormous resources and legal expertise, on system in Queensland. I can cite a couple of examples in my own electorate and in a some sort of totally fabricated dream? That bordering electorate. In Charleville and in that can happen in this day and age is nothing Dalby, Aboriginal health centres were set up short of scandalous. virtually in competition to the very capable and The Opposition has serious reservations good services that are provided to the people about the whole context of this legislation. We through the general hospitals. Why on earth are not saying that there should not be better would the Government want to set up another assistance for the Aboriginal people of expensive system that people generally do not Queensland or Australia. Those people are use? An amount of $600,000 alone for each part of Australia, as are all Australians. We all town is a lot of money. Of course, there are all want to be Australians, but we do not want to sorts of rumours going around about the be a divided nation. What is going to happen funding of those health centres. here in Queensland and in Australia—and it 8 June 1995 12318 Legislative Assembly has been perpetrated by the Labor Party—is position and thus enable the Commonwealth that we will end up being totally divided. We Special Minister for State to recognise the will not be able to face the year 2001 or any of Queensland Native Title Tribunal. The Minister the years ahead with any confidence. has also pointed out the Commonwealth-State The Opposition views the legislation funding arrangements that will apply following before the House with concern and we will Commonwealth recognition of the Queensland certainly be very interested to see how it is tribunal. Importantly, recognition by the administered. We have raised our concerns, Commonwealth ensures that the State retains and we ask the Minister to allay those fears. responsibility for land management issues, The Opposition looks forward to hearing the and decisions of the Queensland Native Title Minister's reply. Tribunal will be legally enforceable. I support the Bill. Mr NUNN (Hervey Bay) (9.30 p.m.): I was mesmerised by the previous speaker. Hon. G. N. SMITH (Townsville— Everybody knows that he is loquacious, if not Minister for Lands) (9.34 p.m.), in reply: The eloquent. contribution from the member opposite was unfortunate, and I think that would be a fairly Mr HOBBS: I rise to a point of order. euphemistic way of putting it. This piece of The member is being facetious, and I feel legislation has never sat comfortably with the offended by that. I would like those words Opposition. The Opposition's performance in withdrawn. 1993 gave a true indication of its view of Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Briskey): reconciliation in this country; it was a very There is no point of order. negative view. Of course, the Opposition is Mr NUNN: What a pity! Thank you for caught in the situation now whereby every your protection, Mr Deputy Speaker. State Government in Australia has come on As the Minister indicated when he line to put in place a system which will provide introduced this Bill, the Native Title an orderly regime. Even the Premier of (Queensland) Act was enacted in 1993. Western Australia, Mr Court, has now lined up. Although a number of provisions of the Act Of course, from the beginning, everyone were proclaimed in November and December predicted that ultimately Mr Court would have 1994, for various reasons there are some to do that. He extracted some political mileage provisions yet to be proclaimed. One such out of it, and the Opposition spokesman is provision relates to the establishment of the trying to do the same thing. I find that a bit Queensland Native Title Tribunal, which will, unfortunate. amongst other things, determine native title A number of countries, such as the United claims and claims for compensation made by States, Canada and New Zealand, have had native title holders or potential native title to come to terms with native title or its holders. It will also be responsible for equivalent. That has been done in a civilised considering non-claimant applications for the way in those countries, and it has been done determination of native title. in a civilised way here, although I find some of As I understand it, under the provisions of the rhetoric that went on tonight a little the Commonwealth Native Title Act 1993, the unfortunate. Clearly, no State would want to Commonwealth Minister may make a find itself in a position which is legally contrary determination about an established tribunal or to the position taken by the Federal body. Proclamation of that provision in the Government. Therefore, I say with some Native Title (Queensland) Act 1993, which sincerity that the Queensland Government has establishes the Queensland Native Title demonstrated a commitment to native title Tribunal, will enable this to be done. legislation dating back to 1993; indeed, we Queensland has been negotiating with the were the first cab off the rank. The recognition Commonwealth in an endeavour to gain of the Queensland Native Title Tribunal by the recognition of the Queensland tribunal as this Commonwealth Government would ensure would ensure that the State retains an ability that the legislation is put in place, because the to exercise authority over the use of the Commonwealth has said from the beginning State's resources. However, the that all States must come on line to put in Commonwealth has indicated that before place the 50 per cent funding support regime. recognition can occur, certain minor technical The member for Hervey Bay summed up the matters in the Native Title (Queensland) Act situation fairly well when he reiterated that should be rectified. there was a threefold reason for the Bill. In The Minister has outlined the three view of that, I cannot understand why people provisions in the Bill which will clarify the are trying to make more out of it. Legislative Assembly 12319 8 June 1995

I believe that the Opposition spokesman The main reason for moving this is well aware of the answer to the second point disallowance of the Motor Vehicles Securities he made in relation to the acceptance of a Regulation was the variations between a claimant application in response to a number of Acts regarding the definition of non-claimant application. We are talking about "motor vehicle". It was an opportunity to have a situation in which a non-claimant application this problem recognised and thus avoid is, for instance, lodged with the Queensland confusion that might have occurred in the Native Title Tribunal. Without rectification of future. With the stringent requirements that will the legislation, there was the possibility that a evolve as a result of REVS, it has become claimant application lodged in the national even more important that greater clarity be Native Title Tribunal could have an effect on provided with regard to the definition of "motor the Queensland application if it was lodged vehicle". There has been a great deal of within the appropriate time of two months. The support for the principles of REVS. Concerns legislation that we are putting in place makes it have arisen following its introduction because quite clear that unless a claim is accepted as a of ongoing problems and inconsistencies. claim—whether or not it is successful—it will There are 10 Acts in which the definition of have no bearing on a non-claimant application "motor vehicle" occur. in the Queensland Tribunal. I thought that the honourable member understood that quite Firstly, I would like to quote the definition well, and essentially it addresses the point that of "motor vehicle" from the Motor Vehicles he made. I do not believe that it is appropriate Securities Regulation 1995, which is— for me to respond to the general point made "(1) 'Motor vehicle' means— by the Opposition spokesman. I believe that his comments were unfortunate, and I shall (a) a land vehicle propelled by leave it at that. anything other than humans, This is a very simple Bill and one that animals, gravity or the wind; or must be put in place. The proposed (b) a vehicle (other than farm commencement date of the legislation is 1 machinery), for example a trailer, July. Therefore, it is necessary to put through designed to be attached to a these very minor amendments to ensure that vehicle described in paragraph the Bill is compliant with the national Native (a). Title Tribunal. Unless the Bill conforms exactly with national requirements, it will not be (2) However, a 'motor vehicle' does not possible for the Queensland tribunal to be include— recognised. That, in total, is the reason for the (a) a train or hovercraft; or Bill. (b) a vehicle used, or intended to Motion agreed to. be used, primarily in mining." I would like to go through some of the other Committee 10 pieces of legislation in which there is a Clauses 1 to 3 and Schedule 1, as read, definition of "motor vehicle", because I am agreed to. quite concerned that some confusion could arise as a result of the necessity to comply Bill reported, without amendment. with the strict requirements of the REVS definition given the definition in the Motor Third Reading Vehicles Securities Regulation that we are looking at. Bill, on motion of Mr Smith, by leave, read a third time. Mr Beattie: Is this why you have moved this motion of disallowance? MOTOR VEHICLES SECURITIES Mr ROWELL: This is the principal REGULATION 1995 (SUBORDINATE reason that I am moving the motion of LEGISLATION 1995, No. 91) disallowance. I would just like to list those Acts that contain a definition of "motor vehicle". Disallowance of Statutory Instrument They are the Motor Vehicle Securities Act, the Mr ROWELL (Hinchinbrook) (9.41 p.m.) Motor Vehicles Safety Act, the State Transport I move— Act, the Traffic Act, the Motor Vehicle Control "That the Motor Vehicles Securities Act, the Auctioneers and Agents Act, the Tow Regulation 1995 (Subordinate Legislation Truck Act, the Motor Vehicle Driving Instruction 1995, No. 91) tabled in the Parliament on School Act, the Motor Accident Insurance Act, 23 May 1995 be disallowed." and the Transport Infrastructure Act. 8 June 1995 12320 Legislative Assembly

I would like to record some of the Instruction School Act 1969, which excludes a differences that I have found during the tractor, as does the Traffic Act. They really are course of my investigation of these different the areas of disparity that occur in the Acts and point out my concern about how definition of "motor vehicle" about which I am things could be misconstrued in the future concerned. because of the need to comply with the The implementation of the REVS register stringent requirements of REVS. In the Acts I on 17 April 1995 created confusion among listed, some vehicles are included in the dealers and the public. I was told of delays definition of "motor vehicle" in the Motor occurring of more than one day's duration. I Vehicles Securities Regulation but are want to make the point very clear that the excluded from the definition in the following delays that occurred disadvantaged not only Acts: the Auctioneers and Agents Act, in which dealers who had sales held up but also a fire engine or a fire reel is excluded; the consumers who were wanting to complete a Motor Vehicles Control Act, in which a fire car sale transaction. They were not able to engine, fire reel or any machinery designed conclude the purchase as the dealer had to specially for road-making or road-maintenance produce the certificate to ascertain whether an is excluded; the State Transport Act, in which encumbrance was listed or evidence that there a fire engine, fire reel or any machinery was an attempt made to produce a certificate. especially designed for roadmaking; the Motor In some instances, computer software was not Vehicles Safety Act, in which a straddle truck, user friendly and difficulty was experienced in mobile crane, mobile dump truck or any running that system in. In some instances, machinery designed for cutting grass or foliage dealers could not get hooked up to on-line is excluded; and the Transport Infrastructure facilities. Computer software such as Desklink (Roads) Regulation, from which a fire engine is had some problems. Phones and fax lines excluded. I am not certain about the definition were jammed for 4 to 48 hours because the of "motor vehicle" in the Motor Vehicles system was overloaded in the initial stages. I Securities Regulation, but a number of understand there has been a substantial vehicles are excluded from the other Acts. In improvement lately. Additional costs would the Auctioneers and Agents Act the definition have been incurred by people in country areas of "motor vehicle" does not include a vehicle who have tried to get information by phone designed for use on a railway or tramway. The since the Government's removal of the 008 definition in that Act is very close to and has number in August last year. some relation to the REVS register, and I think it is important that that be noted. Dealers have said that they were not fully informed of the implementation of the The Motor Vehicles Control Act uses the legislation until 3 April. I have been told that words "any machinery designed for cutting they requested a deferral to become better grass or foliage . . . and used for no other organised but that the request was turned purpose . . ." The State Transport Act down. The Consumer Credit Act, for which mentions "tramway locomotive"—certainly we Queensland holds template legislation, was talked about omitting locomotives and so on supposed to be implemented in September from the definition in the Motor Vehicles this year, but due to other States not being Securities Regulation, but I do not know really able to pass the legislation, commencement where "a tram motor, tram car or traction of the Act has been deferred until March. If it engine" stands in relation to the definition in was acceptable for a delay to take place with the State Transport Act. The Motor Vehicles that legislation, why were the Government and Safety Act refers to "a recreational vehicle as the Minister so heavy handed about insisting defined in the Motor Vehicles Control Act . . . that, at relatively short notice, the REVS stream traction engine, diesel traction register had to adhere to the prescribed date? engine . . ." It became evident that the New South Then we turn to the Motor Vehicle Driving Wales system which is being used was not Instruction School Act 1969, from which a able to cope with the increased demand. I traction engine is excluded, as is a vehicle believe that those involved in sales that had used on a tramway. Then the Liquid Fuel been held up by difficulties were told that if Supply Act excludes a tram. The Traffic Act they could demonstrate that they had made excludes a traction engine. every attempt to access the register, There are definitions omitted from the consideration would be given to their definition of "motor vehicle" in the Motor endeavour to comply. It is difficult to prove that Vehicles Securities Act but are included as a an attempt was made if the telephone or fax definition of "motor vehicle" in the following lines were jammed. A high level of frustration Acts. They include the Motor Vehicle Driving prevailed. I have had many phone calls from Legislative Assembly 12321 8 June 1995 irate people who were dubious about the to link into a new consumer rights protection conclusion of a particular transaction. I have system will not be tolerated. In an open letter also received numerous letters from motor to the Deputy Premier, the dealers stated— vehicle dealers stating that the system was in "This is not about motor dealers chaos. They were incensed by remarks linking into a 'consumer rights protection attributed to the Minister, namely— system', nor is it about dealers refusing to "The legislation was a major become involved in the REVS system. breakthrough for Queensland consumers Firstly, this is not a 'consumer rights as encumbrance rip-offs cost $10m every protection system', it is simply a register of year." financial interests where financiers record That remark was reported in the Gold Coast their encumbrances to warn prospective Bulletin on 30 April 1995 and the buyers of vehicles that there is money Maryborough Chronicle on 27 April 1995. The owing. Secondly, there is no need for dealers have said that they are unaware of the motor dealers to link into the REVS source of those statistics. However, their computer system, because the system is knowledge of the industry and claims against claimed to be accessible by telephone the Auctioneers and Agents Fidelity and facsimile which will be the option Guarantee Fund do not support that extent of taken by a majority of dealers. What losses as a result of dealers' failure to ensure cannot be tolerated is the failure of the that clear title is passed at the time of sale. system to deliver within a reasonable time, and the haphazard delivery time of I now refer to hearings of Budget between 4 and 48 hours is not Estimates Committee B, at which I asked the reasonable. Dealers are required to Minister questions regarding the REVS register provide a certificate to the purchaser at and the claims that have been made about the time of both parties signing the the auctioneers and agents fund, which contract. This cannot be achieved unless actually supports that register as far as claims Mr Burns' system can perform on time, from dealers are concerned. Mr Burns said every time. Computer system failures in that total claims paid to motor vehicle dealers the first two weeks by the Office of between 1 January 1990 and 1 March 1995 Consumer Affairs do not engender were $1.952m. In relation to 1991-92, there confidence in the Departments ability to were 202 claims involving $8,200. deliver." Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Time expired. Palaszczuk): Order! Firstly, I remind the honourable member that it is against the Mr CONNOR (Nerang) (9.57 p.m.): Mr Standing Orders to read from the Hansard of Deputy Speaker—— the current session. Secondly, the honourable Mr Beattie: Here's a used car member is referring to the Estimates, which salesman. He'll know all about it. are part of the Budget which is before the Mr CONNOR: I rise to formally second House. The honourable member will desist the disallowance motion. I also acknowledge from continuing in that vein. the fact that I was a licensed motor dealer for Mr ROWELL: I certainly will do that. Of many years. the $10m that was mentioned by the Minister Mr Beattie: We knew that. in a number of press articles, only $1.9m has been spent. I believe that is really quite Mr CONNOR: I did not sell motor cars; I significant. It states "every year", whereas only sold motor homes. That is where the $1.9m has been spent over a five-year period. honourable member was wrong. I will continue with those dealers' I wish to deal with the aspects of the new comments. They stated that if such losses REVS requirement, the Register of were incurred, they would assume that it was a Encumbered Vehicles. I make it clear that just result of backyard or private sales—an issue as the motor dealers of Queensland support which must be addressed by the Office of the concept of REVS, so too does the Consumer Affairs and which is totally ignored Opposition. What the motor traders and the in the current legislation. I believe that that is a Opposition do have a problem with, however, very valid point. is the high-handed and arrogant way that it is being administered by the Minister, Tom In an article in the Gold Coast Bulletin on Burns. Quite simply, it is being put in place by 30 April, the Minister stated that motor vehicle someone who is totally ignorant of the way in dealers should have linked into the system by which the industry operates. Quite simply, 17 April. He said that their protest and refusal under the guise of consumer protection, the 8 June 1995 12322 Legislative Assembly

Minister is putting in place a tangled web of on private sellers? Because the Minister knows red tape that is totally unnecessary and, in that, because of this new system and because many cases, counterproductive for consumers. we are bringing in all the other States, there is In many cases, it is anti-consumer. a whole mass of encumbered vehicles in Mr J. H. Sullivan: How? Tell us how. Queensland from all the other States. The Minister knows that if he starts requiring those Mr CONNOR: I will answer the REVS certificates to be provided by private honourable member. That is what this debate sellers they will be caught. The people selling is about. There is no doubt that a national cars privately to people will start getting computerised database of motor vehicles caught, and the Minister does not want to be dealing with encumbrances, where sales are in amongst it when all that happens. That is checked against that database, is of immense what is behind it, and that is why REVS is not importance to the consuming public. Mr Burns, being incorporated in private sales. however, has forgotten one very important The Minister will argue that he does not aspect, that is, that the majority of motor want to have that additional cost placed on vehicles sold in Queensland are not sold by private sales. It costs $8. It really comes down motor dealers. He refuses to expand the to the fact that parties already have to pay REVS requirement to private sales. $200 or $300 in stamp duty for the transfer. Mr Burns: Where did you get those However, he is saying that people will not be facts from? prepared to pay the extra $8 to ensure that the vehicles that they are buying are Mr CONNOR: Where did I obtain that unencumbered. That is total rubbish. What it information? I received that from the MTAQ, really comes down to is this: the Minister wants the industry organisation. The biggest problem additional costs for small businesses and he for motor vehicle consumers is shonky wants additional red tape for small businesses. backyard dealers, and the Minister knows that It is all about additional revenue for the that is where the problem lies; it is the shonky backyard dealers, not the licensed dealers. Government. As I was saying, these sales by shonky Mr Burns interjected. backyard dealers are the ones that are Mr CONNOR: Can the Minister show me causing the trouble. They are the ones that a long list of licensed dealers who have sold regularly catch consumers. For example, an encumbered vehicles and caught consumers? article carrying the headline "Stolen cars I challenge the Deputy Premier to table a list seized from new owners" appeared in the of all the people who have been taken down, Gold Coast Bulletin of Friday, 2 June—just on who have received encumbered vehicles from a week ago. Guess what? On reading the licensed dealers and have not been bailed article, it states that the buyer bought the car out. The only ones who have not been bailed privately for his lawn-mowing franchise. Over out are those whom his Government has not and over again, people are being caught backed with a guarantee. That guarantee through private sales. exists for motor dealers under the Auctioneers Members might recall a big hoo-ha a few and Agents Act and the provisions of the months back when a red Laser, purchased by fidelity fund, which members opposite raided. a woman on the Gold Coast, attracted The Minister knows that the biggest Statewide news attention. Members might problem is the shonky backyard dealers. By also recall that that car was purchased placing the requirement only on licensed privately. It was repossessed because it was motor dealers he is increasing the cost encumbered. Again, this was a private sale. differential between the licensed motor dealers Guess what? A company on the Gold Coast and the shonky backyard dealers. By by the name of Sunshine Ford bailed out that increasing the cost of the licensed dealers he girl. That company ended up paying for that is making it easier for the shonky backyard car. The company had nothing to do with the dealers to take advantage of the consumer. sale or the purchase of that car, but it bailed He is making their operations cheaper. So he that lady out. I will read a letter that was sent is making it worse for the consumer because to Mr Burns by that dealer. I might add that he is forcing many of them onto those shonky Sunshine Ford is, if not the largest motor backyard dealers. He knows that, the motor dealer on the Gold Coast, one of the largest traders know that and the motor industry dealers and possibly one of the largest dealers knows that—everyone knows that. But he will in Queensland. The letter states— not do it. Why will he not do it? Why will the "I feel insulted by the Minister not place the requirements of REVS inferences . . . not consulting with the Legislative Assembly 12323 8 June 1995

Australian Automobile Dealers Association Division are not at this time able to supply when creating legislative changes"—— to Industry the required certificates to and I might add that this letter was dated 29 meet the legislation introduction May and signed by Steve Kelly, the Dealer deadline." Principal of Sunshine Ford. The letter states The letter states further—and this really sums further— it up— "I have supported the introduction of ". . . will see confusion and difficulties the National Register for encumbered and between sellers and buyers and will be stolen vehicles, since it was first discussed counterproductive to the legislation's in 1977. Unfortunately, the new REVS intent of consumer protection." system recently introduced by your That is what it is all about. It is Department is totally unacceptable and counterproductive. It is not in any way should be urgently redressed as it protecting the consumer. provides no security to Dealers and creates a substantial financial burden to Time expired. our company and others within the Mrs WOODGATE (Kurwongbah) industry." (10.07 p.m.): Once again, the member for It states further— Nerang has disappointed me. Every time he rises to speak in this place I think that he is ". . . costs caused by delays of up to two going to top his maiden speech. He has never weeks by certain finance companies topped it yet for the most stupid speech made lethargy in removing encumbrances. in this House. However, I say that he went Minister, what have you done to pretty close. I will give the member for Nerang ensure finance companies act within an a little bit of advice: he should keep his day appropriate time frame to reduce the job. He should not put in for that job lecturing intolerable inconvenience to our in logic next door at QUT, because he would customers?" never get it. QUT would not even give the Mr Kelly then refers to the real guts of the member a second interview. issue, and that is the requirements of the The member started off telling us that the Auctioneers and Agents Act 1971-1985. In his legislation is totally anti-consumer. We all letter, Mr Kelly quotes from the Act, which interrupted him and said, "Prove it." The states— member did not say anything about that. He "If a used Motor Vehicle is sold by or just gave us a lesson on how he was a used on behalf of a Motor Dealer, whether by car dealer. We used to call him "Honky tonk". auction or any other mode of sale, the From now on, he is going to be known as the Motor Dealer—(a) shall be deemed, at the "Shonky tonk" of Nerang. time of sale, to guarantee clear title to the Mr CONNOR: I rise to a point of order. motor vehicle to the purchaser." First of all, I find that offensive because it is That is the bottom line. That is the Act. untrue. I never sold used cars. Under that Act, they have been guaranteeing Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr the ownership of those vehicles ad infinitum. Palaszczuk): Order! I warn the member for So this REVS business with which the Minister Nerang under Standing Order 123A. has been pounding the beat around the State Mr CONNOR: I am not a used-car is a total farce and a phoney. salesman. I would just like to sum up by referring to Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The what another dealer on the coast, Websters member will resume his seat. I am on my feet. Car Sales, had to say about this matter in a I have warned the honourable member under letter to the Minister. It states— Standing Order 123A. When I am on my feet, "Under the new legislation, each the honourable member resumes his seat. If transaction requires a new certificate daily, he wants to continue in that vein, I will ask him which is great revenue funding for the to leave the Chamber. If the honourable Government." member is rising on a point of order, he should Again, the bottom line is revenue. Further, make his point of order as briefly as he can what has AADA, the motor dealers and not give an explanation. Then I will make themselves, had to say about this matter? In a a ruling. Take your point of order. letter to the Minister, the dealers state— Mr CONNOR: As I was saying, I find "It is obvious that the Office of that offensive. I ask it to be withdrawn. It is Consumer Affairs and the QMVSR untrue. I never sold used cars. 8 June 1995 12324 Legislative Assembly

Mrs WOODGATE: What is so offensive auctioneers. They have just concerns and the about selling used cars? Mr Deputy Speaker, I Minister realises that. He discussed that issue withdraw the fact that I said that the member with members of the committee, of which I am sold used cars, but what an insult to used car a member. The Minister is taking their salesmen—the member saying that he finds concerns on board. The auctioneers are telling that offensive. us why they cannot comply with the Mr CONNOR: I rise to a point of order. I requirement to supply the buyer with a ask that it be withdrawn unequivocally. I do not certificate from the registry in relation to sales want to comment. at auctions. Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The In a nutshell, the auctioneers' argument is honourable member has withdrawn. that they cannot know who the buyer is prior to the sale. After the fall of the hammer, the sale Mrs WOODGATE: I withdraw. As I was is completed, and it is too late to provide the saying, from now on the member shall be buyer with the REVS certificate. Some of them known as "Shonky tonk", not "Honky tonk". are saying, "We may sell 300 cars per day at The member tells us that the legislation is auction. That means that we would have to totally anti-consumer. Then he says that this buy 300 certificates. At $4 each, that will cost legislation will create more backyard dealers $1,200, and we may sell only 200. We would and encourage more private sales. How in the waste $400." The simple solution to the name of heaven is this legislation going to problem is for the certificate to be displayed to make more people buy cars privately? It is bidders prior to the sale of each vehicle. The going to encourage more people to buy cars Act does say that the buyer should be given from the dealers because they will receive the REVS certificate prior to the sale. Using protection. this method, although the buyer would not Mr FitzGerald: The dealers have have a personal copy of the certificate, he or protection now. she would still be given the certificate—in that one was made available—so that the Mrs WOODGATE: They have better prospective buyer could see clearly whether protection now. I am not standing here tonight the vehicle was encumbered. The certificates denying that there are not dealers who are can be supplied to bidders in remote areas by unhappy with aspects of this legislation. computer and fax, so there is no practical However, the Opposition has to realise that in reason why bidders cannot see a certificate. the car game there are a lot of good dealers There is really no practical reason why the and there are a lot of very bad dealers. This auctioneers cannot comply with that. legislation protects people from the very bad dealers and it follows that this will, in turn, be I have a bit of sympathy for the argument to the benefit of the very good dealer. Before that the provision of certificates in that way is the member for Nerang has had enough and expensive, because more than one certificate leaves the Chamber, one of these days I may need to be obtained in relation to one would like to ask him to let me know in passing vehicle if that vehicle is not sold at auction on how much he ever put into the fidelity fund. He the first occasion. I understand that. is a great defender of all of this, but how much Auctioneers want to be able to supply a did he put in? The Minister interjected and certificate to the buyer straight after the fall of asked him—— the hammer. I have discussed this problem with the Minister, and the solution is not an Ms Power interjected. easy one; it is something that the Minister is Mrs WOODGATE: Not a brass farthing, looking at. An amendment to that effect may I am sure. As I said, this legislation will bring be moved in this House some time down the more people buying cars back to dealers. It track, but there is no easy solution. protects them. The question was asked, "Why The Sale of Goods Act 1896 provides that do only motor dealers have to pay this? Why where goods are sold by auction, the sale is not the private market?" The requirement that concluded at the fall of the hammer. The dealers do ensure that clear title is passed and whole point of an auction sale is to ensure that that they provide the certificate is a means of the sale is concluded on the spot and there is ensuring that the public will receive protection a binding contract between the parties. If we by dealing with a motor dealer. If clear title is are going to accommodate the wishes of the not passed, the consumer is entitled to make auctioneers in this matter so that the REVS a claim against the Auctioneers and Agents certificate is supplied only to the successful Fidelity Guarantee Fund. Obviously, this type bidder, auctions of used motor vehicles will of protection does not exist in private-to-private need to be conducted differently from the way sales. We have heard a lot from the in which they are conducted at present. A sale Legislative Assembly 12325 8 June 1995 will not be able to be concluded at the fall of think that I have ever accepted any of the the hammer. Rather, we may have to think statements made by the member for Nerang, about making the sale conditional upon the who from this day on should not be known as production of a REVS certificate shortly after the "Nerang-outang", as he has been so the sale. That is something to be looked at. As unkindly referred to, but as the shonky—— I said, the Minister has discussed this with Mr FitzGerald: You are like Paul members and officers of his department, and Keating in miniature; you're no better than he there is no easy solution. Maybe an is. amendment will come before the House in the future. The Minister is quite amenable to that Mrs WOODGATE: I thank the member suggestion. for Lockyer; to be called a miniature Paul Keating would be the highest acclamation that The aim of the present provision is to I could receive in this House. I rest my case. provide the consumer with a certificate prior to the sale so that the consumer will have the Mr HEALY (Toowoomba North) opportunity either to back out of a contract if (10.16 p.m.): I support the disallowance the certificate shows an encumbrance—and motion moved by the member for that is a very good safety net for a buyer at an Hinchinbrook. In doing so, I welcome the auction sale—or to continue with the contract opportunity to echo the thoughts of many in the full knowledge that there is a registered people involved in the motor vehicle industry. encumbrance. I am sure that quite a few In particular, I wish to make some comments honourable members on both sides of the about the conversion of the Queensland House would know of instances in which Motor Vehicles Security Register to the New relatives and friends have bought encumbered South Wales REVS register. cars at auction. That happens in the best of At the outset, let me say that the families. conversion itself has the support of the The question we must ask is: if the industry, and the Minister knows that to be auction sale is made conditional upon the true. However, the REVS system is not the production of a REVS certificate, how will the be-all and end-all as far as consumer consumer be able to get out of the contract if protection in the motor vehicle industry is the certificate shows an encumbrance? We concerned. What is needed is new legislation have to address that question. If the contract giving both the consumer and motor vehicle is made conditional upon the production of a dealers real protection. I wish to quote from an certificate, the contract would be binding open letter to the Queensland consumer, irrespective of whether the vehicle was which appeared in many newspapers in May. showing an encumbrance. That means that The letter was written by Paul King, the Used the consumer is not protected in any way. Car Chairman of AADA, the Australian Therefore, the amendment would have to be Automobile Dealers Association. I think it is framed in such a way that the consumer would important to quote from that letter because it get the benefit of being handed a REVS gives a real indication of the concerns of the certificate and having the opportunity to back motor vehicle industry in Queensland. That out of the contract if an encumbrance is open letter states— shown. I think that is the way to go. ". . . the licensed motor dealers of As I said, I have talked about this with the Queensland have a vested interest in Minister. An amendment could be introduced ensuring that your rights"— down the track. This may be the way in which that is, the people of Queensland— the Government is heading. That would mean that the auctioneer would need to provide a "are protected and that only individuals certificate showing clear title for the contract to with the integrity, capacity and be binding immediately or else the contract professionalism are allowed to operate in would be made voidable if the certificate were this State. As part of this process, we to show an encumbrance. I think that would joined in a review of the legislation satisfy members on both sides of this House. regulating motor dealers in 1991 and put As I said, if auctioneers want to be able to forward some major recommendations to supply a certificate after the sale, there would the Minister for Consumer Affairs to need to be quite drastic changes to the way protect consumers purchasing motor things operate now. We will have to leave that vehicles whether they bought from for another day. licensed dealers, private sales or beside I do not accept some of the statements the road." made by the member for Nerang. I do not Further, the letter states— 8 June 1995 12326 Legislative Assembly

"This review was heralded by all who The suggestion to the Minister is that, took the time to understand it as a major whereas the REVS system will go part of the initiative to protect consumers and the way towards protecting the consumer, it will proposed changes had the support of the not go all of the way. These thoughts of the motor industry and consumer AADA are a very real plea to the Minister not representatives. Since its release in 1992, to walk away from the problems by using the the government has seen fit to ignore our REVS register as a crutch. REVS goes only repeated requests for its implementation part of the way towards consumer protection. and has deferred and delayed some of its Even the conversion itself has had some major features thereby leaving the problems, which the Minister acknowledges in consumers this government is elected to numerous letters that I have seen written to represent, and talks about at length, at various people. The problems seem to be risk." slowly ironing themselves out. Those problems experienced since the conversion date did It goes on further to say— cause great concern to the industry and "Some of the major initiatives individual dealers. Until the system is fully supported by this industry were: operational, no doubt some dealers may still mandatory warranties on used car sales, have problems. increased penalties for illegal trading, The real problems facing the industry are penalties against all individuals who outlined clearly in a letter to the Minister— windback odometers and protection for again from Paul King of AADA—which said— consumers at auction sales, plus a "The industry does support the standardised format for contracting to buy principle behind the implementation of a motor vehicle, stricter regulation of any scheme which would reduce the unethical practices and the incidence of encumbered or stolen implementation of a legislated code of vehicles being sold to consumers, conduct for motor dealers, and the list however we believe you have only goes on." addressed half the equation, leaving a The letter then states— majority of purchasers buying privately or "We are proud of our industry and at the side of the road at serious risk." the people who work in it, bearing in mind A joint letter to the Minister from Bill Clarke, the it is a major employer within Queensland, Executive Director of the Motor Trades but have found the negativity of the Office Association of Queensland, and John Cant, of Consumer Affairs and their reticence to the Queensland President of the AADA, make decisions or effectively police the stated— current legislation to be frustrating and to "The Motor Dealers of Queensland hinder true consumer protection in this are extremely concerned that the State." legislation does not require private sellers It concludes— of motor vehicles to produce a QMVSR Certificate at point of sale of a used motor "The only true way for any vehicle. Government or industry to effectively operate in today's society is for all parties If as we believe this legislation is to work toward consensus through aimed at consumer protection our appreciation of each others point of view. members believe that as transfer of This industry appreciates the consumer, registration statistics prove 50% of all for without them and their continued secondhand vehicles sold are private to support we would not survive in the highly private sales, the legislation has missed protecting more than 50% of consumer competitive marketplace. Hopefully the buyers." Government will equally learn to appreciate our position and implement The industry generally is extremely the long, long overdue and 'real' concerned that REVS does not require people consumer protection legislation as a selling a used vehicle privately to provide a totality rather than attempting to pass-off certificate. I believe that that is probably the the REVS system as 'consumer protection main concern of the industry. The industry legislation' which it is not." itself is quite happy with the REVS system. But its members seem to believe—and I agree I believe that is an important point of view from with them—that they are being discriminated the industry—both the Australian Automobile against unless there is a level playing field for Dealers Association and the MTAQ. private-to-private sales in relation to REVS Legislative Assembly 12327 8 June 1995 certificates. Registration figures show that 50 amending legislation to include the sale of all per cent of all second-hand vehicle sales were second-hand motor vehicles, including those private. If REVS, or the legislation governing it, sold private to private. The industry has were aimed at consumer protection, then it is suggested that there should be a wrecks missing out on protecting 50 per cent of used- register to prevent stolen compliance plates vehicle buyers. from wrecked vehicles being placed on a I know that the Minister says that private stolen vehicle. That has been suggested to sellers of motor vehicles who use the register the Minister before. Until such time as appreciate the protection that the register amending legislation is enacted, the industry offers. The Minister has also been quoted as will continue to be of the belief that REVS is saying that something like 99.7 per cent of discriminatory and that the charges associated that 50 per cent of used-vehicle buyers to with it are nothing more than an additional tax whom I have just referred actually use the on vehicle sales. register. There is no legislation to make it Mr T. B. SULLIVAN (Chermside) mandatory for a private seller to obtain a (10.26 p.m.): I rise to oppose the disallowance certificate. The Minister has foreshadowed that motion, and there are two aspects on which I legislation is to be introduced which will will speak. The first is a concern that has been remove the rights of the Auctioneers and raised by some dealers who have queried why Agents Fidelity Guarantee Fund to have the the requirement for the compulsory issue of discretion to assist buyers who purchase an certificates is contained in the Auctioneers and encumbered vehicle from a backyard dealer or Agents Act rather than the Motor Vehicles the side of the road. I have said before that Securities Act. The reason for this is that the even though many licensed dealers in the requirement to produce a REVS certificate is past were not bothering to purchase a aimed at dealers in used motor vehicles. Other certificate—and I agree with the Minister—they provisions concerning motor dealers are are doing so now and are quite happy to contained in the Auctioneers and Agents Act, continue to do that. But they are continually so this is the logical place to put this provision. being frustrated by the fact that at least 50 per The benefits flowing to motor dealers as a cent of motor vehicle transactions in this result of the requirement to produces REVS State—those constituted by the private sales certificates to consumers are significant. The market—do not require the purchase of a amendment which the Minister introduced to certificate. the Auctioneers and Agents Act contained The motor vehicle industry, particularly in three important elements: firstly, the dealer is areas such as Toowoomba, where the drought required to supply a REVS certificate to the has had a huge impact on some dealers, is buyer before the sale; secondly, the old doing it pretty tough. Not only must it compete provision requiring the dealer to guarantee with the backyard and the unlicensed dealers clear title was replaced with a requirement that but also with Government auctions, where the dealer had to actively ensure that title was many of the regulations of a normal sale are passed to the buyer; and, thirdly, if the dealer not required to be complied with. I know that a did fail to pass title, the buyer would have a Government auction at which 62 motor clear right to claim compensation from the vehicles will be up for grabs will be held in fund. The main benefit is that the consumer Toowoomba in the not-too-distant future. will know that, by dealing with a motor dealer, Recently, I attended a meeting of the there will be the safety net of being able to Australian Automobile Association held in my claim against the fund if clear title is not electorate. Those dealers virtually said that passed. Reputable dealers should feel they might as well close their doors on that comforted by this, because that will help particular day, because there will certainly be generate more trade for them away from the no business for them. They are cranky that private market. some of the regulations that are required of This significant benefit to dealers comes them are not required of those auctions. at very little cost to them. At the moment, the Protection for the consumer is of only direct contribution that dealers are paramount importance in the case of motor required to make to the fund is part of the vehicle sales to the public. The Australian initial fee paid on the licence application. A Automobile Dealers Association insists that its contribution is also made to the fund through members, who are licensed motor vehicle the interest accrued on client funds held in dealers, are already required under their dealer trust accounts. In numerical terms, the licence provision to guarantee clear title to proportion of motor dealer trust accounts to consumers purchasing used motor vehicles. the total is only 0.4244 per cent—less than There is therefore a very real need for one half of 1 per cent. The remaining trust 8 June 1995 12328 Legislative Assembly accounts are held by real estate agents and concerning the operation of the Register of auctioneers. In anyone's language, this is a Encumbered Vehicles—REVS. I wish to make very cheap insurance policy and a very cheap it very clear to the House and to those way to attract business. members opposite that the legislation is The second matter that I wish to address riddled with inequity and injustice to those who is the current performance of the REVS actually do the right thing in the motor trades service. The Office of Consumer Affairs has industry. Those who do the right thing in the employed and trained 24 additional staff in the sales of used cars are in fact the licensed REVS section, taking the total number of motor dealers throughout the State who have operators to 40. This has ensured that the been strictly controlled under the Auctioneers REVS service is now working very well, with the and Agents Act and through comprehensive average call holding time or queue time being industry self-regulation for many years. below 30 seconds, and the fax delivery service Since 1971, under section 57 of the generated by the phone queue is less than 10 Auctioneers and Agents Act, all licensed motor minutes. Many dealers have actually shifted dealers have been required to guarantee clear back from the fax to the phone service title of the motor vehicle to the purchaser in because of the faster response times. I writing. The Consumer Affairs Minister has believe that the number has dropped from made mention of the need to clean up the 900 per day to 400 per day. In fact, many motor trades industry. In reality, the Consumer dealers have reported that the first certificate is Affairs Minister is offering the purchaser no arriving on their fax machine while they are still more protection than has been available since on the phone to the REVS operator giving 1971. Now the purchaser has the privilege of them a second request. However, for STD paying for the same protection. We now have callers—and our country members of here a proposal to supposedly safeguard the Parliament should note this point because it consumer through protection from being will affect people in their electorates more ripped off by an untrustworthy or unscrupulous specifically—it is still more cost effective to use dealer. I am able to rightly say that such a the fax service. dealer would not last long under the existing controls in Queensland and through the strong The only problem with the phone/fax industry self-regulation which exists in the service at the moment is with dealers who motor trades industry. have phone/fax switches. The REVS system will attempt to contact a fax number three The Consumer Affairs Minister now times then redirect the request to an error presents the motor dealers in Queensland with report, which will not be generated until much a new tax. This REVS system has in fact later in the day. The certificate will then be produced a new tax, and the cost will manually faxed to the dealer. So if at all ultimately be added to the price of used cars. possible, a dealer should have a separate fax Motor dealers are required to obtain a REVS line to gain the fastest and most efficient certificate through the Department of service. Consumer Affairs before a contract of sale can be entered into on a vehicle. Such a certificate About 2,500 REVS certificates are now attracts a fee. To obtain a certificate, the generated per day, with 1,500 generated dealer must pay a fee of $6, a facsimile fee of on-line directly by the dealers. There are $2 and any phone charges, dependent on occasional times when congestion occurs where that dealer may be operating his or her on-line, so the office has ordered an business, since the Consumer Affairs Minister expansion to the on-line REVS service so that was responsible for removing the 008 number any congestion problems will be gone in about for the securities register in 1994. four weeks' time. Many people have no doubt seen the TV and press campaign on REVS With the certificates now being a which is aimed at the private-to-private market. Government requirement, the actual cost of The Office of Consumer Affairs is presently the certificates is being passed on to the processing about 100 private certificates per purchaser. Clearly, the REVS system provides day as a result of the campaign. The Minister the same protection as has always been is considering the compulsory provision of offered to the purchaser but now discriminates REVS certificates for private-to-private sales, against the licensed motor dealer. I wish to but that is something to be looked at in the present some figures on actual motor vehicle future. I oppose the disallowance motion sales which have been produced recently by before the House. the Motor Trades Association. Tonight, I noticed the Minister gesticulating that he Mr GRICE (Broadwater) (10.31 p.m.): I doubted those figures, but they are figures also wish to speak on the legislation that have come from the Motor Trades Legislative Assembly 12329 8 June 1995

Association and they do indicate that 50 per Once the certificate has been issued, it is only cent of car sales are as a result of private valued for 24 hours. sales and sales by backyard operators. The REVS system is definitely on the right This system essentially offers no more track. However, it discriminates against than what was previously offered for no charge licensed motor dealers, and that is not under the provisions of the Auctioneers and acceptable. The real rip-offs are found, and will Agents Act through the licensed motor dealer, continue to be found, in and around backyard yet REVS now openly discriminates against dealers and shonky private sales which the motor dealer. Fifty per cent of motor escape the attention of the entire REVS vehicle sales are conducted other than system. As the Consumer Affairs Minister has through licensed motor dealers, so where is stated his reliance upon the REVS system to the protection for the purchaser in these provide consumer protection, he should instances? There is no requirement for the spread that protection across-the-board to purchaser to access the REVS database overcome in their entirety the problems that under these circumstances. The backyard REVS is meant to avoid. operator who deals in cars will still have a free I would say to the Minister that this hand at sales, but all licensed motor dealers disallowance motion is not as a result of a are required to access the REVS database and obtain a certificate at a cost to the dealer difference in philosophy between the for all sales. Opposition and the Government; it has been moved because we have received The REVS system has not gone far representations from a very large number of enough. The Consumer Affairs Minister has motor dealers. Only three weeks ago, I went to made use of the statement that he would a breakfast on the Gold Coast that was introduce complete consumer protection. This attended by 120 dealers. Certainly there is the is simply not the case. The REVS system just shonk car dealer, as there is the shonk doctor, does not offer complete consumer protection. lawyer or carpenter, and the Cooke inquiry Certainly it is a step in the right direction, certainly told us that there are a lot of shonk because it enables better access to national unionists. However, the vast majority of motor vehicle records than did the dealers are decent businessmen, and they Queensland motor vehicle securities register. have a legitimate beef. That is why we are However, the REVS system does not in any occupying the time of the House at this hour way provide information to the purchaser of the night. It is a genuine attempt to improve regarding whether the vehicle is stolen. A the system. It is a shame that the Minister is person may go ahead and buy an not interested in that comment. unencumbered vehicle that is stolen in the confidence that he has a REVS certificate. Mr BEATTIE (Brisbane Central) Where is the consumer protection for those (10.38 p.m.) I was so amazed by the who choose to access this system for private contribution of the previous speaker that I was sales? There is little or no protection in that almost left speechless, and honourable regard. The REVS system reports only on members can imagine how difficult that would vehicles which may have money owing on have been! I have listened to the contributions them and such information is provided by by the various Opposition members and I think various financial institutions. that they do not understand the legislation. The honourable member for Hinchinbrook The majority of motor dealers have talked about the definition of "motor vehicle". I experienced major problems with the REVS could not quite grasp what he was going on system. The motor dealers themselves were about. not consulted by the Government on the introduction of the REVS system and were Mr Robertson: Horseless carriages. only advised of the finalised system one week Mr BEATTIE: It was not horseless prior to its commencement. Some dealers carriages. There is a definition of "motor have opted for a direct link with the REVS vehicle" in the Motor Vehicles Securities Act system, while others have relied upon the and a definition of "motor vehicle" and "used telephone and the facsimile link. All have motor vehicle" in the Auctioneers and Agents experienced major problems with equipment Act. supplied by Consumer Affairs for a link-up to the REVS database. The equipment supplied Mr Rowell interjected. has not been up to scratch and turnaround Mr BEATTIE: I will come back to that. I times for phone and fax inquiries have taken will deal with that, because this is where what I far too long to ensure maximum client have to say differs from what the honourable satisfaction in the purchasing of a vehicle. member is saying. 8 June 1995 12330 Legislative Assembly

Mr Rowell interjected. means that in 1993-94 total private Mr BEATTIE: I am happy to take the transactions were 30 per cent at 183,442. In member's interjection, if he would just let me 1994-95 they were still 30 per cent at 228,612. finish. The definition of "motor vehicle" in the Therefore, what the member is talking about is Motor Vehicles Securities Act is wide but it absolute bunkum. He does not know what he provides for certain exclusions. They are: is talking about. Compared with 1994-95, the trains, mining vehicles, hovercraft and farm number of private transactions in 1993-94 was machinery which attaches to a motor vehicle. still 30 per cent. It is not true that there was a The definition of "motor vehicle" in the big increase as he has tried to suggest. The Auctioneers and Agents Act also excludes member's suggestion that there has been an trains and trailers other than caravan trailers. It increase in private transactions in some can be seen that the range of exclusions dishonest way—— under the Motor Vehicles Securities Act is Mr Connor interjected. narrow. There should therefore be few Mr BEATTIE: Yes, you did, and it is just instances in which a vehicle comes within the not true. definition in the Auctioneers and Agents Act but not the definition in the Motor Vehicles Mr CONNOR: I rise to a point of order. Securities Act. I do not understand the point Mr Beattie interjected. that the honourable member is making. Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Mr Rowell interjected. Palaszczuk): Order! The member will resume Mr BEATTIE: It is such a minor his seat. When the member rises to take a difference that it is not going to lead to the point of order, he will not accept interjections. difficulties to which the member referred. I Mr CONNOR: I find that offensive and it have dealt with the point that the member is untrue. I did not say what the member said raised. and I ask him to withdraw. I did not say it was I will move on to the contribution by the increasing. honourable member for Nerang, who tried to suggest that there was a significant increase in Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! the number of private dealers. The statistics Resume your seat. The Chair has ruled with are very clear: that is just not true. The the honourable member previously that points Department of Transport has given formal of order should be short and sharp without transfer figures for the number of second-hand explanations. All the honourable member has car sales. For the purposes of these figures, to do is say, "I find the remarks made by the "dealer" includes private to dealer, dealer to honourable member offensive and ask that dealer and dealer to private. The number of they be withdrawn." The Chair will then rule. In dealer transactions in that category in 1993-94 this case, the Chair finds no point of order. is 438,145. Mr BEATTIE: As I was saying, the Mr Connor interjected. honourable member for Nerang tried to suggest that there was a significant increase in Mr BEATTIE: The member should let private to private transactions. The official me finish. statistics from the Department of Transport Mr Connor: That's not a sale, that's a show that that is simply not true. Recent transaction. market research indicates that, of private Mr BEATTIE: Of course it is a sales, over 55 per cent are made between transaction. The member was talking about parties who already know one another, that is, private sales. family to family or friend to friend. Mr Connor interjected. The honourable member for Nerang is trying to suggest that we should not have Mr BEATTIE: If the member wants to private sales. The National and Liberal Parties have a serious debate, I am happy to do that; are trying to say that a father should not sell to if he wants to be an airhead, I will not bother. his son, a mother should not sell to her I will make this very simple: in 1993-94, daughter, an uncle should not sell to his there were 438,145 dealer sales, which nephew, and a brother should not sell to his represented 70 per cent of transactions. In the sister. The Department of Transport did an 1994 financial year to April 1995, the dealer analysis of who was selling cars in a private transactions—and that is again private to capacity and found that most of the people dealer, dealer to dealer and dealer to were related. What the honourable member private—were 538,619, which again said was the greatest heap of bunkum since represented 70 per cent of transactions. That Adam and Eve were in shorts. I table those Legislative Assembly 12331 8 June 1995 official Department of Transport statistics for car. The Opposition wants to go back to the the information of the House. old system where the buyer loses the car and The Opposition had better hope that this any improvements made to it. disallowance motion is unsuccessful tonight The real question here is: how much does because, if not, the whole motor vehicle it cost the fidelity fund to pay out claims made industry would be down on it like a tonne of where consumers have taken the word of a bricks. One of the key matters contained in used car dealer that the vehicle is this new regulation is the fact that New South unencumbered, and how much do dealers Wales, Victoria, the ACT and the Northern pay into the fidelity fund to protect their Territory are recognised States for the customers? My advice is that there is a huge purposes of the Motor Vehicle Securities Act. disparity, and perhaps the Minister could Disallowance of this motion will mean that advise us on that when he makes his persons in Queensland will not be able to be contribution. It would be interesting to see how protected under the Act if they are provided much real estate agents are required to pay to with data coming from those jurisdictions. protect motor vehicle dealers and their clients. The Opposition is attacking the Time expired. consumers and the people who want security Hon. T. J. BURNS (Lytton—Deputy when they purchase a car by saying they Premier, Minister for Emergency Services and cannot have interstate information. That is Consumer Affairs and Minister Assisting the wonderful politics! In addition to that, some of Premier on Rural Affairs) (10.47 p.m.), in reply: the fees contained in the new regulations I thank honourable members for their reduce the fees provided under the repealed contributions. I am surprised at the motion to regulations. The cost of a certificate to a disallow this regulation. Section 14 of the dealer under the old regulation was $8, and it regulation lists the recognised States as the is going to be $4 for on-line dealers. In other Australian Capital Territory, New South Wales, words, the Opposition wants dealers to pay the Northern Territory and Victoria. The old twice what they would under these regulations. scheme allowed a person to find information The Opposition should tell that to the dealers! on an encumbered vehicle only in The new regulations provide for the new Queensland; it made no provision for services which have been introduced with the obtaining any information elsewhere. adoption of the REVS system. For example, The Opposition has said that it does want the regulations allow for the purchase of us to be able to check, and the member for computer software packages to access on-line Broadwater talked about incomplete consumer information. They will also allow for protection. How incomplete would it be if, as a applications to the registry to be made on-line result of a resolution carried by the Opposition, and for searches to be made on-line. The we could not access information about Opposition does not want to allow that. If it encumbered vehicles in New South Wales, was successful, it would be very unpopular Victoria, the Northern Territory, and the ACT? tomorrow. Whilst the Opposition wanted to debate this Let us take a hypothetical case. If a tonight, it did not think about its motion, which consumer bought a car from a licensed dealer is about defeating the regulation and thereby and the vehicle becomes known to be removing protection from the consumer. encumbered despite assurances from the The cost of a certificate to a dealer, as the dealer to the contrary, under the old system honourable member for Brisbane Central has the car would be repossessed. If the said, was $8 under the old regulation. It will consumer had made any improvements on now be $4 for an on-line dealer. Because of that vehicle, he or she would lose those when the way in which the fee structure is now it was repossessed. The consumer would be arranged, the bulk of the transactions by paid out of the fidelity fund, but if he put mag dealers and financiers are, in practical terms, wheels on the car or made any improvements much cheaper than they were before. For on it, he would lose them. If a person buys the example, the register of an instrument under same car under the new system, he will not the old regulation cost $11, plus $2 for each lose it. The consumer is given the REVS vehicle and the subject of security on the certificate at the point of sale, the car's instrument. Under the new regulation the cost encumbrance is paid out and the consumer to register an interest by on-line batch is $5, gets to keep the car and the options that against $11 plus $2 for each. The new would have been put on that car, such as mag regulations provide for the new services which wheels. Therefore, the best thing for the have been introduced with the adoption of consumer is that he or she gets to keep the REVS. For example, there are about 600 8 June 1995 12332 Legislative Assembly dealers who bought on-line equipment and "From April 1995 Queensland car are dealing directly with us, but with this dealers will be compelled to provide a motion the Opposition wants to wipe that out. clear certificate to title number for every An Opposition member interjected. used car sold. It is the first in making this State part of the national vehicle register." Mr BURNS: Yes, that is what the Opposition wants. The Opposition is moving to They were not told! It is in their own magazine. disallow the regulation. Go and read the The member for Broadwater said that they regulation! For example, the regulations allow were not told until a week before. Here we are for the purchase of computer software in their own magazine—and the date is on it. packages to access on-line information. By There it is for everybody to see in November removing the regulation, that service is last year. The honourable member fell for the removed. It also allows for application to the plot. He fell for the three-card trick. He bought registry to be made on-line and for searches to a used car off a bloke who did not know what be made on-line, which was impossible under he was talking about. The article continued— the old scheme. " 'For a long time we've known that it As a consequence, if the motion is is far too easy for crooks to trade successful, dealers will revert to a more interstate registered vehicles which have expensive system and consumers will have financial encumbrance,' said Mr. Burns." less protection than under REVS. For They warned all their members to be in the instance, there have been 78,000 transactions deal. They wrote to our office in December under REVS since its introduction. If we 1993. The letter stated— assume that 70,000 have been dealer "As you are aware, AADA have transactions and that they have saved actively counselled its members to carry between $8 and $4, that is $280,000 less that out security registered checks on all dealers have paid than they would have under vehicles that they trade and to also obtain the old scheme. That is, honourable members a certificate to protect their legal title to opposite want them to pay 280 grand more. In the vehicle. We are well aware of the addition to that, if it had gone down to only $6 dangers of dealers not carrying out these as would be the case if they used the fax, checks and the costs that some dealers then it would be $2 a head for 70,000, which have had to face." is $140,000. AADA wrote to us saying they knew that. Honourable members opposite never AADA put it in their paper four months before thought it through. It is the most stupid motion it occurred—and honourable members that has ever been before this place. They talk opposite say they were taken by surprise. about consumer protection and they are saying, "We want to increase the price, we Mr Rowell went on all about everything want to remove the areas that they cover in that had nothing to do with REVS but, the other States." They want to take the on- unfortunately, he is pretty good at doing that. line equipment away; they never thought it The only thing he talked about in the end was the QMVSR. The notes that were supplied to through. They just wanted to get up and have me in response to his speech show that it a bit of a bag because they have been really did not apply to the material that is hearing about non-consultation. All before the House. The material before the honourable members opposite have quoted House is all about REVS. the Motor Traders Journal tonight. Here is the Motor Traders Journal of 1994 with my photo Mr Rowell: I was dealing with the on the front. The story says— definition of a motor vehicle. "Queensland REVS gives access— Mr BURNS: It was dealing with the definition of a motor vehicle. Read the Mr Connor: That's before they knew. regulations. While we are talking about no Mr BURNS: Hang on, here is the article. consumer protection, let us look at a few of Mr Connor: How about the latest the people who were mentioned in the edition? magazine and who were fined. One dealer after the other was fined in this particular case. Mr BURNS: Does the honourable A Runaway Bay motor dealer whose business member want to listen? Of course he does not address had been at Ashmore was fined want to listen. You fell for it, digger. The $4,000. Brian Thomas Gurney was fined honourable member fell for Mr King and some $6,000 in the Beenleigh Magistrates Court. of his stories. Let us read it here out of their Thomas John Lonergan of Board Street Car magazine. Page 9 states— Sales was fined $4,399. These are the honest Legislative Assembly 12333 8 June 1995 dealers that Opposition members are certificate between private and private sales. I protecting. think the honourable member for Brisbane There are good dealers out there who Central stole my thunder there, because 55 come to me and say, "Keep going. Don't take per cent of the sales of private to private are any notice of the fellows who don't want to pay between relatives—relative to relative. The first the 4 bucks. Keep going." thing is to think out how you would work it out. We register motor vehicle dealers. We provide Mr Connor: They love to pay it. They an insurance scheme for people who deal off are happy to pay it. them. Those who deal off a registered motor Mr BURNS: The honourable member vehicle dealer can be looked after. If a person doesn't even know what he's talking about. buys on the side of the road there will be no They told me to take no notice of him, too. protection from the Auctioneers and Agents They said straight out, "If Connor comes to Act, not one bit of protection whatsoever. you, don't buy a used car off that mug." That Buying off a backyard dealer gives no is what they said to me. Good dealers are protection at all. coming to me one after the other telling me to We have an advertising campaign that keep going with this, because there are has been running for a while saying "buy off a dealers—if the honourable member has been dealer and check the encumbrance register". in the business, he knows it—who sell the cars We make provision for private people to do it if they no longer want any more to backyard they want to. To make it compulsory you dealers. This system gives some protection would have to find a way of doing it. How do from the backyard dealer. you do that when the deals are between aunty An honourable member interjected. and uncle or brother and sister? We would Mr BURNS: The honourable member is have to send inspectors down to the Transport just a loud noise. He never thinks. I will Department every day and say, "Who address my remarks to someone else registered a car today? Did they have it because he will not listen. Under the encumbered?" They would have to send auctioneers and agents scheme—the current someone out to the house to check it out. It scheme—if a person's car is repossessed, would be crazy. when the car is taken away we then come to I am prepared to look at any system that pay you out. is practical, but that is so impractical that it is impossible. It would cost all the funds to do it. Mr Beattie interjected. The other way to do it is to talk about a Mr BURNS: The honourable member for compulsory certificate—everyone must have it. Brisbane Central asked me would I talk about I cannot believe that Opposition members are the money that has been paid out. In 1992-93 proposing that. Everyone dealing between where we had 323—— relative and relative would be forced to hand a Mr Lingard: Why don't you talk to the certificate over, "Here Dad, I am buying your Speaker? car. Give me a certificate to see you are not ripping me off." For God's sake, what sort of a Mr BURNS: I am talking to the Speaker. mob are Opposition members? I will talk this way to the Speaker. I don't have to face Mr Speaker to talk to members Honourable members opposite take the through him. Do I have to look at Mr Speaker? word of Mr King that this is a good proposal. Is that the way it has to be? They take the figures he gives out—they are not right—and then they take those silly ideas In 1992-93, when we paid out $323,300 and come in here and recommended that we for a few dealers we collected back only do away with the system that checks $11,500. Where did the other money go? encumbrances in every State on the eastern When we talk about the money, we are not coast of Australia. They say they want to get recovering it out of the dealers. The people rid of the system that does that. They say they who are paying are real estate agents through want to introduce a system that will put the the Auctioneers and Agents Fidelity fees back up again, not down, and then they Guarantee Fund. In 1993-94, of $199,444 we are going to go out there and trumpet that got $52,000 back. In 1994-95 till March, we they have done so very, very well. I see the had $64,991 back out of $164,580. We are honourable member for Nerang—and empty not recovering the money at all. vessels do make the most sound. He proves it We are not suggesting for one moment very regularly here in this place. When he that this is complete consumer protection. But rattles that head of his, we get all those funny the first argument honourable members noises coming out of it. A couple of members opposite put up is that we ought to have a from my own side who have been on my 8 June 1995 12334 Legislative Assembly committee know that there are a few things Mr FitzGerald: This fellow hasn't got a that we have to look at in this scheme. licence. Mr FitzGerald: Dealers shifting stuff is a Mr BURNS: That is right. What do we problem. do? Do we take him to court? Do we charge him for operating without a licence? Mr BURNS: Let's talk about dealer to dealer. An encumbrance certificate bought Mr FitzGerald: You can't stop shonky today for $4 covers the whole day. If it is second-hand dealers; that's what you are transferred to three dealers that day another telling me. certificate does not have to be purchased. Mr BURNS: Are you ready now, Blue? If That costs $4. Second-hand cars can be worth the honourable member settles back for a $50,000 or they can be worth $5,000. Four minute, I will talk about what we could do. The dollars is not a lot to pay. honourable member's view is that I have to Mr FitzGerald: What about the book grab that dealer by the scruff of the neck, take work on shifting it from one stand to the next? him down and throw him in the slammer. Unfortunately, we have legislation and laws in Mr BURNS: It is not book work; only one this country, and that person has to be certificate is needed. That is not right. A charged and taken before a magistrate. We certificate purchased in the morning covers the need people who are prepared to give whole day. It goes with the car all day. It is evidence. A certificate would help, and we there for the day. If a bloke says, "I've had it in would be able to use the encumbered vehicle five yards today, and I've had to buy five register as evidence. certificates", that is bulldust. He needs to buy Mr FitzGerald: He's already been in one certificate only, and that costs $4. gaol. Mr FitzGerald: We are talking about a Mr BURNS: Listen, a lot of people have dealer who wants to shift a car from already been in gaol, and I do not know Indooroopilly to Ipswich Road. He's got to get whether the REVS register, which the a certificate. honourable member wants to remove, will Mr BURNS: No, because he is not keep people out of gaol or put people into selling it. If it is going between one yard and gaol. The member should be a bit sensible another, we do not ask him for a certificate. about this issue. He knows damn well that his However, if he is selling it, he has to have a suggestion is not very practical. He knows certificate, because we want to follow the trail damn well that our inspectors have been after and check whether odometers have been that person all the time and will continue to be turned back. If I sell a car to the honourable after him. If he reads Hansard, Mr Faint ought member with 200,000 on the clock and he to know that we have him on the list. He is one sells it to Kev Lingard, who sells it to Mr of those whom we need to get. There are a Rowell, who sells it to somebody else, and by whole lot of them out there. The whole that stage the car has 50,000 on the clock, if industry is asking us to do something about we insist on certificates then we can follow those shonks. those transactions and trace them back. We Mr King and others who quote figures of might not pick it up the first time, but we will 50 per cent cannot even get the exact figures eventually know if those couple of dealers in into their own local newspapers. They say that the middle are tampering with the odometer. no-one has consulted with them, and they had We need to follow that trail. Dealers say to us, photographs on the front pages of "For the first time, we've found the suitcase newspapers five months before they said that dealer, the carpetbagger who doesn't have a the consultation started. When they cannot business, who doesn't have a shed on the get their facts straight in their own local main road." newspapers, it is very hard to believe members opposite when they recommend Mr FitzGerald: I have one up in my that the fee should go back up and that we no area named Lloyd Faint, and I have written to longer connect with New South Wales, you a number of times, and you won't do Victoria, the ACT and the Northern Territory. anything. He hasn't got a licence, and you That is what this motion is all about. aren't prepared to deal with him. We should consider a couple of sectors: Mr BURNS: I turn to another subject auctions and private sales. We need to see with which I am pretty happy—the fishing what we can do to tighten up the private sale industry. A fellow in Proserpine has lost his sector. Auctioneers are in a very difficult licence three times. He does not care; he just position. Under the Auctioneers and Agents goes and buys another net. Act, when the hammer drops and a person Legislative Assembly 12335 8 June 1995 has bought a motor vehicle, that car is theirs. cars repossessed, and we would have had to If it happens to be encumbered, it is still theirs. chase the money. Because of REVS, people That sector contains many dangers. If an did not pay over the money, and the cars did auctioneer buys certificates for 400 cars and not go out. Some people are complaining sells only 200, he has wasted his money on about that, but I think that is because they did 200 certificates. One possible method of not sell their cars. We have to protect the dealing with that problem is to change the customer. The customers and their hard cash Auctioneers and Agents Act so that, at the are what we are worried about. The people in beginning of an auction, an auctioneer can the industry to whom I have spoken and with say, "Ladies and Gentlemen, at the fall of the whom I have met have said to me, "Don't hammer a certificate will be obtained from the back away on it. Keep going. Sit down and encumbered vehicles register. If it is not talk about the couple of problems—the encumbered you can have it; if it is auction system and the private-to-private encumbered you have the right to get out of system. Talk about the other little problems, the sale." That is the best way that we can see but don't throw the baby out with the to solve the problem, but we have to work bathwater. It is a good scheme." through that with the auctioneers. The scheme is working well for the I have been talking with individual dealers dealers, and if we can get the advertising for some time. I have not spoken to Mr King campaign about private sales under way, it will and others because they have been writing be a far better scheme because we will pick up articles for their local newspapers which more and more private sales. I ask the House include statements that I do not believe are to reject the Opposition's motion. I cannot true. Officers of my department tell me that believe that members opposite are suggesting those stories are not true, and I see no reason that the fees for dealers should go up and that to have contact with any person who we should remove the protection of checking negotiates on such a shaky basis. However, I encumbered vehicle registers in New South am prepared to sit down with any responsible Wales, Victoria, the ACT and the Northern dealer—as I have on the Gold Coast, in Territory. Townsville, Cairns and Brisbane—and discuss his or her concerns. Question—That the motion be agreed to—put; and the House divided— There is nothing wrong with REVS. It is a good system. It is not complete; it never will AYES, 29—Beanland, Connor, Davidson, Elliott, be. As the honourable member opposite said FitzGerald, Gamin, Gilmore, Grice, Healy, Hobbs, in relation to Mr Faint, there will never be a Horan, Johnson, Lester, Lingard, Littleproud, system that will stamp out every shonky used McCauley, Malone, Perrett, Quinn, Rowell, Santoro, car dealer. There will never be a system that Simpson, Slack, Stephan, Stoneman, Turner, Watson Tellers: Springborg, Laming. will stamp out shonks in every industry. If honourable members believe in such a NOES, 45—Ardill, Barton, Beattie, Bennett, Bird, system, they believe in fairies at the bottom of Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, Burns, Clark, Comben, the garden. Such a system does not exist. All D’Arcy, Dollin, Elder, Fenlon, Foley, Hamill, Hollis, we can do is implement the best system McElligott, McGrady, Mackenroth, Milliner, Nunn, Nuttall, Palaszczuk, Pearce, Pitt, Power, Purcell, possible. Pyke, Robertson, Robson, Rose, Smith, Spence, The REVS system is handling thousands Sullivan J. H., Sullivan T. B., Szczerbanik, Vaughan, of calls a day. In the first 16 days of the Warner, Welford, Wells, Woodgate Tellers: scheme, 6,000 vehicles were found to be Livingstone, Budd. encumbered. Those 6,000 vehicles—from Resolved in the negative. interstate and elsewhere—could have been sold to people who would later have had those The House adjourned at 11.13 p.m.