Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii

t the end of the intense week-long meeting at Los Alamos in November 1992 among scientists from Arzamas-16, Los A Alamos, and Sandia, we met with the head of the Russian delegation, Alexander I. Pavlovskii, to talk about his expe- riences as a nuclear-weapons scientist in the former Soviet Union. Pavlovskii had been a protegé of Nobel Peace Prize winner Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov. At the time of our conversation, he was Deputy Chief Scientist and Head of the Fundamental and Ap- plied Physics Department of the All-Russia Scientific Research In- stitute of Experimental Physics at Arzamas-16, Russia.

Two translators were present: Elena Panevkina, who was by Pavlovskii’s side at all meetings with non-Russian speaking scientists, and Eugene Kutyreff from the Laboratory’s International Technology Division. We thank both of them for their patience and endurance.

Just as we were preparing to send this interview to Pavlovskii for his review, we learned of his sudden death on February 12, 1993. We were honored to have met him and moved by the candor and depth of feeling he expressed during our interview. Many scientists at Los Alamos knew Pavlovskii well, and we hope they will find this interview a fitting memorial to an exceptional man.

82 Los Alamos Science Number 21 1993

Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii

Los Alamos Science: Tell us how different. Sinelnikov didn’t really environment in the world, this type you got into science and how you want me to leave the Physicotechni- of weapon was absolutely necessary. came to work in a nuclear-weapons cal Institute. He wanted me to stay As Andrei Sakharov himself said, it laboratory. and work on the equivalent of a was “to prevent temptations.” master’s degree, but after I met in Pavlovskii: It’s hard to say how I Moscow with Flerov, who was work- Our scientists thought about defense became a scientist because when I ing at Arzamas-16 at that time, I in just the same way as the Ameri- was young, you could not decide on was determined to go there. cans. We thought the development a career by yourself—it was some- of the hydrogen bomb was a very thing that was decided for you. My dissertation work had been in important undertaking. We worked classical physics. I had been doing very, very hard, sometimes around In the late 1940s I attended Kharkov experimental work on the process of the clock. And through this labor University, which is in Kharkov in fluorescence. So when I arrived in we were able to resolve some very the Ukraine. It houses the well- Arzamas I realized that I needed to interesting scientific questions. Re- known Physicotechnical Institute. change my specialty a little bit, and member, our country had just under- Lev D. Landau and Evgenii M. Lif- I began studying nuclear physics. gone tremendous destruction during shitz, known so well in the West for My professors at the Kharkov Insti- World War II, and the resources their physics textbooks, worked to- tute had taught us well, so I was available to us were not nearly as gether at that institute during the quite prepared to learn new things. good as those available to the Amer- 1930s before Landau moved to ican scientists. Therefore, for us to Moscow. During the third year of Almost immediately I became in- solve the same problems you were my university studies, I began to volved in studying physical process- solving required a maximum effort work at the Physicotechnical Insti- es for the development of the first on our part with a minimum of ex- tute. At the time, the Director was Soviet hydrogen bomb, the father penditures on materials. It was a Kirill Dmitrievich Sinelnikov, one of which is, of course, Andrei time of great tensions but also one of those physicists who had gone Dmitrievich Sakharov. I was in- of great accomplishment. through Cambridge University in volved primarily in studying ele- England. I was very fortunate to mentary nuclear cross sections and Paradoxically, during this period of have been associated with him and effective cross sections in special strenuous demands, the level of in- with Lifshitz, Alexander Il’ich assemblies of materials. These tellectual life was also very high. Akhiezer, Giorgii Nikolaevich experiments were absolutely We not only read a great deal of Flerov, and many other very inter- necessary in order to understand artistic literature, we also looked at esting people. the physics of nuclear fission and all the new inventions and new sci- neutron transport. entific discoveries. When we had Los Alamos Science: How did you free time, we were involved in become involved in nuclear-weapons I was in the department headed by sports. Many of us were interested work? Flerov, and I also worked with in theater, and at every opportunity Sakharov and many other great men during our trips to Moscow we went Pavlovskii: In my time, the Soviet who are too numerous to mention. to plays. In those first few years at Union had a specialized program for From the point of view of a scien- Arzamas, I saw more shows than I bringing people into a variety of tist, it was a very unusual time, and have seen over the course of the rest types of work. After you finished at a very interesting and productive of my life. the institute or the university, you time. All the questions facing us would be given your choice of sev- were brand new. In hindsight, other Los Alamos Science: How far is eral places where you might want to people may look at the development Arzamas from Moscow? work. When I picked Arzamas, I of thermonuclear weapons somewhat didn’t really know what was going differently, but back then all of us Pavlovskii: It’s about 200 miles or on at that institute. I had a romantic were quite sure that in order to pre- an hour’s plane ride. The Institute notion of something new, something serve peace and maintain a stable was necessarily isolated because of

1993 Number 21 Los Alamos Science 83 Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii

the work that was going on there, Los Alamos Science: Would you re- ously, you had to come to the same but the work sent us to Moscow, mind us of the dates of the major conclusions. Leningrad, which is now St. Peters- Soviet weapons developments? burg, and other cities, so we traveled Los Alamos Science: Perhaps you quite often. Pavlovskii: Our first test of an would like to say more about the atomic bomb was in 1949, the first conditions under which you were Los Alamos Science: Is it true that hydrogen bomb was in August 1953, working compared with those of the scientists were able to fly to and in November 1955 we tested our American scientists. Moscow with their families just to first thermonuclear bomb. attend the theater or enjoy some Pavlovskii: There was a very big leisure time? Los Alamos Science: There was a difference during the 1950s because time when the Ameri- we had very little laboratory equip- cans believed the ment. We had to develop amplifiers, Russians were six discriminators, and other electronics months ahead in de- needed for our experiments from veloping a thermonu- spare parts left over from the equip- clear device, and the ment of some Canadian radio sta- government poured tions that had been lend-leased dur- money into Los ing World War II. Despite the poor Alamos to accelerate conditions, our specialists were still our research. able to come up with electronic equipment that performed no worse Pavlovskii: I don’t than that of our American counter- know whether we parts. The lack of equipment meant Vladimir Chernyshev (l), Max Fowler (c), and Alexander Pavlovskii were months ahead of we had to apply more intellectual (r) at Los Alamos. you, but the bench- skill. It is a much more difficult mark steps that I list- task to develop the needed apparatus Pavlovskii: Yakov Zeldovich and ed were not experimental tests, they than to order it from some company. Yuli Khariton were absolutely enam- were full-scale nuclear-weapons ored of the theater, and they would tests. If you’ve read Sakharov’s The amplifiers we worked on, for ex- sometimes take time off to visit memoirs, you would remember that ample, were done using Elmore’s Moscow and attend the theaters. he referred to the first hydrogen book, a standard electronics text bombs as Idea 1 and Idea 2. from those years. We needed to mea- Los Alamos Science: Arzamas, it Sakharov mentioned these early sure very fast processes in gas dy- seems, had a collection of great ideas because he was a very proper, namics, and special amplifiers had to physicists just as Los Alamos did very good person, and he wanted to be built to record the signals. You during the Manhattan Project. demonstrate the creative contribu- eventually developed the PHERMEX tions of Vitaly Ginzburg. The third radiographic facility in the United Pavlovskii: Yes, we had many idea, which led to modern thermonu- States. But in those days we just renowned physicists, but also some clear weapons, really belongs to didn’t have the capability of making young, inexperienced specialists; I Sakharov. But as Sakharov himself that kind of equipment. Nonetheless, was among the latter group. When I has written, he and Zeldovich both we achieved some very-good-quality arrived at Arzamas in 1951, Andrei developed Idea 3 together. It was results just by modifying other equip- Sakharov was 30 years old, the Di- essentially the same as the ment and using materials that were rector of the Laboratory was 31 or Ulam/Teller idea. What’s interest- available. There are many similar 32 years old, and most of the rest of ing is that it doesn’t really matter examples that I could mention. us were 23 to 25 years old. Togeth- what country you were from; the er we made the first hydrogen bomb physics is the same, the logical steps Los Alamos Science: During that and the first thermonuclear weapons. of science were identical, and, obvi- same period, you started to work on

84 Los Alamos Science Number 21 1993 Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii

the types of pulsed-power experi- quite a long time, until 1968. Dur- ments that are being discussed at ing the years that he worked at Arza- this week’s meeting with the Ameri- mas, we were extremely productive. can scientists. Is that correct? Sakharov was a man who thought about many ideas at once. Even be- Pavlovskii: While we were devel- fore he came to Arzamas in 1950, he oping the first thermonuclear de- had already begun to study cosmolo- vices, we began working on many gy and a variety of problems in quan- types of problems because the intel- tum electrodynamics, such as the lectual level of scientists at Arzamas Lamb shift. He had also proposed an was very high. As happened in idea for muon-catalyzed fusion in America, all the great scientists in 1948. The idea is to create molecular our country came to work on the ions, each consisting of two project, but there was a slight differ- deuterons held together by a muon ence—in the United States, they col- rather than by an electron. Since the lected all of the best scientists from muon is 209 times heavier than the the rest of the world; we were limit- electron, it draws the two deuterons ed to those in our country. 209 times closer to each other. In fact, the two positively charged Bob Gibson with Pavlovskii at Trident laser in Los Alamos Science: Not all the deuterons are so close together that Los Alamos. great scientists who worked on the they can fuse by quantum tunneling, sion. His original interest was to form a helium use the generator to achieve ther- atom, and release a monuclear fusion. A little-known great deal of ener- fact is that he later proposed using gy in the process. lasers to implode spherical targets He put forth the filled with thermonuclear fuel and idea of using achieve thermonuclear fusion that muons as passive way. That idea came to him imme- catalysts for fusion diately after scientists in the United in 1948. States announced the invention of the ruby laser in 1960. I remember In about 1950 or his great excitement when he re- 1951 he and Igor turned from Moscow after conduct- Tamm proposed ing several seminars on the possibil- another idea for ities of laser fusion. controlled thermonuclear fusion, Los Alamos Science: How did the namely, the mag- idea of using muons to catalyze fu- netic thermonu- sion occur to him so early? clear reactor, the Pavlovskii with John Immele, director of the Nuclear Weapons Program design of which is Pavlovskii: It is difficult to de- at Los Alamos. the progenitor of scribe the logic of Sakharov’s think- Manhattan Project worked on the the present tokamak designs for ing. Many of us had great difficulty hydrogen bomb. Many of them left magnetic-fusion reactors. At about understanding even the simplest Los Alamos after 1945. the same time, he started talking things he said. We had many semi- about the design of magnetocumula- nars at Arzamas, during which Zel- Pavlovskii: Many of our best tive generators, which could concen- dovich used to serve as an inter- physicists left as well, but Sakharov, trate magnetic field lines into small preter between Sakharov and the rest for example, stayed and worked for volumes using explosive compres- of us. Sakharov made quantum

1993 Number 21 Los Alamos Science 85 Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii

leaps in his logic, and his words dealing with someone who lived, in ence. Not long before his death we needed to be translated into much part, on another plane of existence. met and discussed magnetocumula- simpler language in order for every- tive experiments in great detail. But body else to understand what he was Los Alamos Science: How did you he seemed unable to separate his talking about. feel when in the late 1950s Sakharov public life from his scientific life. objected to the continuation of nu- Politics just seemed to have en- Los Alamos Science: Is Sakharov a clear testing and then in 1968 called veloped him fully. hero to you? for disarmament and a rapproche- ment between the United States and Los Alamos Science: In the early Pavlovskii: That is a difficult ques- the Soviet Union? 1970s you must have had a chance tion to answer. When I listed the to read his report to the Central various areas of work that Sakharov Pavlovskii: Well, my previous com- Committee of the Communist Party was involved in over a very short ments have only skimmed the surface on the convergence of two global time, it was to show his unique ge- of Sakharov’s personality. He also systems. That essay was published nius and his ability to think in paral- had a peculiarity of looking at every- abroad in 1968 as “Reflections on lel. For example, when I would talk thing with a degree of innocence. He Progress, Peaceful Coexistence and had this habit of Intellectual Freedom.” In it thinking about so- Sakharov warned of the dangers of ciety and govern- thermonuclear war, he condemned ment in very ideal- dogmatism, terror, and Stalin’s istic—you might crimes, and he urged democratiza- even say naive— tion and the convergence of political terms. That’s why systems as the way to avoid global the first book he destruction. published after he left Arzamas and Pavlovskii: Many people at Arza- started public work mas-16 had copies of his book in the was devoted pre- ’70s, and they read and discussed cisely to what he those issues. Sakharov never made called convergence, a secret of the fact that he had such Steve Younger and Pavlovskii at the Trident laser. or the rapproche- ideas. He always spoke freely about ment between the them, and because they were at a with him, he would stick his chin socialist and capitalist systems. popular level, they could be dis- on his palm and appear to be listen- cussed by everyone. ing intently. Then suddenly I would When Sakharov was at Arzamas, I become acutely aware that he was always looked at him as more of a Los Alamos Science: In the Soviet thinking about something entirely scientist than a political man. Given Union were scientists pressured to different even though he never lost the tense time and all the work we work on nuclear weapons or could the train of thought of our conversa- were doing, most of us didn’t have they make that choice independently? tion. We still have on hand his any time to think about politics. It notes and papers on the magnetocu- is difficult to judge whether it would Pavlovskii: For the most part, al- mulative generators, and on the have been better if he had simply re- though some would tell you differ- back side of these pages are some of mained a scientist rather than get- ently now, most people went to work his calculated estimates of the mass- ting involved in political activities on nuclear weapons voluntarily. es of the quarks. So, in addition to because in both fields he accom- There were some who were motivat- his very high moral character, he plished a great deal. The things he ed by the slightly higher salaries we was a very unusual person. You al- talked about publicly throughout his received, but the difference in pay- most had the feeling that he had lifetime were very unusual, and the ment was not very great. The ma- mystical powers, that you were same can be said for his ideas in sci- jority of the scientists at Arzamas

86 Los Alamos Science Number 21 1993 Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii

wanted to prove their abilities to Pavlovskii: Most of the people in try, you’re always going to find a their peers. In those years the cli- our institute continue to do basic re- small group who could be bought or mate was set for us by the great men search as well as weapons research, sold or coerced or subverted to be- with whom we worked. Although and they take their basic research come involved in other activities. they were working primarily on work very seriously. But recently it The relatively young physicists are weapons, their initiatives in other has become very difficult for us in the most vulnerable position, and areas of science were usually well again, in some respects as difficult there are those who want to leave supported. For those who were truly as it was when we first started. We the country. It is a very difficult interested in science, Arzamas pro- lack a good industrial base, the abil- time. vided a unique opportunity to do re- ity to obtain equipment, and so on, search in many interesting fields. just as in the early days. Los Alamos Science: So who is pro- tecting and safeguarding the nu- Los Alamos Science: So, if you Los Alamos Science: What is the clear-weapons establishment? worked on weapons, then you had economic situation of the scientists at other opportunities? Arzamas? Previously you were treat- Pavlovskii: The first line of de- ed rather well by the State, and now? fense is the people who designed the Pavlovskii: Yes, in those years we weapons in the first place. Those began to study many fields and Pavlovskii: Now that we are becom- people are truly interested in sci- trends of science that are still inter- ing a market economy, we don’t un- ence, and they have a rather high esting today. The work on magne- derstand what money means anymore. moral character. They understand tocumulative generators is a good All the gradations have disappeared. the situation in the world today, and example. Sakharov wanted to use There are now, in magnetic-flux compression, or essence, only two “magnetocumulation,” as we called categories: first, the it, in developing impulse accelera- workers, a group that tors that could create beams of ele- is shrinking rapidly, mentary particles with high energies and second, those and high intensities. It could also engaged in the resale be used to create super-strong mag- of goods, which netic fields and strong currents for a doesn’t involve any period of time long enough to study intellectual or physi- material properties under extreme cal prowess. In the pressure and extreme magnetic second category are fields. people who earn tens to hundreds of times I became involved in that work from more than the real the beginning, and it has continued workers. So the through all these years. Very similar weapons scientists work has been going on at Los have no real privi- Russian-American meeting in University House in Los Alamos. Alamos under the direction of Max leges anymore. In Fowler since 1953, and now we are fact our situation is even worse—it’s they know that they must play an ex- here at Los Alamos, together with turned 180 degrees. tremely important and responsible our American colleagues, discussing role in controlling nuclear weapons. the possibilities for collaborative Los Alamos Science: Will the weapons But it’s hard to accomplish for vari- work in this area. scientists be able to maintain their in- ous reasons. tegrity in the present environment? Los Alamos Science: Has basic re- During this meeting, in the search remained a strong effort at Pavlovskii: Within the overall evenings, I made some toasts, and Arzamas? spectrum of scientists in our coun- we talked about the fact that labora-

1993 Number 21 Los Alamos Science 87 Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii

tories such as ours, weapons labora- ported us in this initiative to develop on nonproliferation, storage of nu- tories, are beginning to have closer collaborations with Los Alamos. clear weapons, destruction of ties to one another. This develop- The contacts, however, were made at weapons, ecological problems, and ment is not happening because of the lab-to-lab level. For example, nuclear-energy safety concerns. I’m the will of individual scientists, but not going to list them all, but there rather because of the collective feel- are a great many scientific areas that ing that we need to help stabilize the we want to talk about. situation. There is also the need to find a colleague with whom you are Los Alamos Science: Are you free of one opinion and can talk to in the to talk about anything, even if it’s same language, the language of sci- about nuclear weapons? ence. That’s a very important aspect of any type of collaborative efforts Pavlovskii: With whom? on the part of scientists. There are no limitations or difficulties in col- Los Alamos Science: The American laborations among scientists. It is weapons scientists. natural. The politicians and those higher up in the power structure, Pavlovskii: No. In fact, neither we however, have reservations. nor our American counterparts will discuss, for example, bomb designs Los Alamos Science: So, in your with each other because we have an country what is the attitude about obligation to safeguard that knowl- both the weapons and the weapons edge. Just as in the United States, scientists? the Russian government has issued Alexander Pavlovskii an entire series of rules and regula- Pavlovskii: It is a rapidly changing tions about safeguarding nuclear situation. At first those people who here at Los Alamos, I was very fa- weapons. are now in power and who call miliar with Max Fowler, Dennis Er- themselves the democrats, despite ickson, and others and with their Los Alamos Science: People here the fact that they are still the old work on pulsed power and high are worried that other countries, Communist Party functionaries, magnetic fields. We’ve met at inter- such as Libya or Iran or Iraq, may were saying, “Away with every- national conferences, we’ve read make overtures to the Russian thing! Do away with these scientists each other’s publications, and as a weapons scientists. Do you know of who are studying weapons, do away result we came up with the idea of any such instances? with nuclear weapons, do away with starting collaborative efforts. Then, nuclear testing!” That is an indica- in February 1992 we had an ex- Pavlovskii: No, I don’t know of tion of the types of things that are change of delegations at the director any actual instances. going on in our country. But then, level of our respective laboratories. let’s ask the question: If we do First, the directors of our two nu- Los Alamos Science: What was the away with weapons scientists, what clear weapons laboratories visited reaction in the former Soviet nuclear are we going to do with the Los Alamos and Livermore, and weapons community to President weapons? There are many examples then the Los Alamos/Livermore del- Reagan’s Strategic Defense Initia- of that kind of question. egation came to Arzamas and tive proposal? Chelyabinsk. A memorandum was So basically the people in Arzamas signed, stating that we had agreed to Pavlovskii: We perceived there are put in the position of trying to engage in collaborative efforts on a were some scientific opportunities find contacts on their own. We feel wide range of scientific topics. In in SDI, but as for its chances of suc- very little involvement from the my opinion, those topics are very cess, you should perhaps ask the government, although they have sup- important. They include questions American authors of SDI. When I

88 Los Alamos Science Number 21 1993 Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii

was a young man, I used to play that was discussed at the meetings tive speculation, black markets—let with electron beams and shoot we had here this week. While me finish, hold on—I don’t think it’s things with them, but that was when American scientists have an obvious just a Russian problem, it’s now be- I was a boy. interest in helping Russian scien- coming a world-wide problem. In tists, the fact remains that in the many respects, the level of intellec- Los Alamos Science: The Russians magnetic-field-generator work, for tuality has dropped significantly all weren’t worried about SDI? example, we have been able to pro- over the world. duce the highest magnetic fields in Pavlovskii: No. I had some con- the world. And this is not the only Los Alamos Science: Once again, versations about SDI with American area in which we’ve been able to science in the United States is be- representatives when I was at the achieve a lot with little. coming dependent on foreigners. In Beams ’92 conference in Washing- many areas of science, the ranks are ton at the end of May. They had Los Alamos Science: Are your best being filled by students and postdoc- asked me to give a talk, and after- students going into physics? toral fellows from other countries. wards I asked them several questions about SDI, and I understood from their answers that SDI is a dead end.

Los Alamos Science: Were the Rus- sians working on similar technology?

Pavlovskii: Sure, there was some work going on in this area, but it was looked at from a different per- spective—more as research-type work. It has many purposes, so it’s not really a total waste of time. It opened up some interesting direc- tions of research.

Los Alamos Science: In the research areas that you shared this week, did you feel that the Russian work was Pavlovskii, Mikhail Dolotenko, and Alexander Petrukhin overlooking Pueblo Canyon. superior to the American work?

Pavlovskii: That’s really not the Pavlovskii: Unfortunately not. The Pavlovskii: One of the first things I proper question. We’ve always had process is different now. Given the noticed when visiting the United very talented mathematicians and circumstances in our country, the States was that about half of the best theoreticians in Russia. For experi- morale of our people more or less mathematicians in American insti- mentalists, however, life is a little dictates where the youth goes. The tutes are Russians. I’m not saying harder. In addition to paper and young people who are subverted by that the directors of your institutes pencil, they need all kinds of equip- cars, by toys as it were, see it would are all going to be foreigners, but ment, and in our country there is a be far too hard to get those things when I ask American scientists about lack of necessary equipment. Nev- through a career in science. They the quality of the Russians who are ertheless, in many areas they were want instant gratification. They go working, teaching, and studying at able to overcome these difficulties into what we call “business.” The- American universities and institutes, and come up with some very good new word for it is business, but I they always express the highest opin- results. So let’s consider the work think the old word for it was primi- ion of their Russian colleagues.

1993 Number 21 Los Alamos Science 89