Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii t the end of the intense week-long meeting at Los Alamos in November 1992 among scientists from Arzamas-16, Los A Alamos, and Sandia, we met with the head of the Russian delegation, Alexander I. Pavlovskii, to talk about his expe- riences as a nuclear-weapons scientist in the former Soviet Union. Pavlovskii had been a protegé of Nobel Peace Prize winner Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov. At the time of our conversation, he was Deputy Chief Scientist and Head of the Fundamental and Ap- plied Physics Department of the All-Russia Scientific Research In- stitute of Experimental Physics at Arzamas-16, Russia. Two translators were present: Elena Panevkina, who was by Pavlovskii’s side at all meetings with non-Russian speaking scientists, and Eugene Kutyreff from the Laboratory’s International Technology Division. We thank both of them for their patience and endurance. Just as we were preparing to send this interview to Pavlovskii for his review, we learned of his sudden death on February 12, 1993. We were honored to have met him and moved by the candor and depth of feeling he expressed during our interview. Many scientists at Los Alamos knew Pavlovskii well, and we hope they will find this interview a fitting memorial to an exceptional man. 82 Los Alamos Science Number 21 1993 Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii Los Alamos Science: Tell us how different. Sinelnikov didn’t really environment in the world, this type you got into science and how you want me to leave the Physicotechni- of weapon was absolutely necessary. came to work in a nuclear-weapons cal Institute. He wanted me to stay As Andrei Sakharov himself said, it laboratory. and work on the equivalent of a was “to prevent temptations.” master’s degree, but after I met in Pavlovskii: It’s hard to say how I Moscow with Flerov, who was work- Our scientists thought about defense became a scientist because when I ing at Arzamas-16 at that time, I in just the same way as the Ameri- was young, you could not decide on was determined to go there. cans. We thought the development a career by yourself—it was some- of the hydrogen bomb was a very thing that was decided for you. My dissertation work had been in important undertaking. We worked classical physics. I had been doing very, very hard, sometimes around In the late 1940s I attended Kharkov experimental work on the process of the clock. And through this labor University, which is in Kharkov in fluorescence. So when I arrived in we were able to resolve some very the Ukraine. It houses the well- Arzamas I realized that I needed to interesting scientific questions. Re- known Physicotechnical Institute. change my specialty a little bit, and member, our country had just under- Lev D. Landau and Evgenii M. Lif- I began studying nuclear physics. gone tremendous destruction during shitz, known so well in the West for My professors at the Kharkov Insti- World War II, and the resources their physics textbooks, worked to- tute had taught us well, so I was available to us were not nearly as gether at that institute during the quite prepared to learn new things. good as those available to the Amer- 1930s before Landau moved to ican scientists. Therefore, for us to Moscow. During the third year of Almost immediately I became in- solve the same problems you were my university studies, I began to volved in studying physical process- solving required a maximum effort work at the Physicotechnical Insti- es for the development of the first on our part with a minimum of ex- tute. At the time, the Director was Soviet hydrogen bomb, the father penditures on materials. It was a Kirill Dmitrievich Sinelnikov, one of which is, of course, Andrei time of great tensions but also one of those physicists who had gone Dmitrievich Sakharov. I was in- of great accomplishment. through Cambridge University in volved primarily in studying ele- England. I was very fortunate to mentary nuclear cross sections and Paradoxically, during this period of have been associated with him and effective cross sections in special strenuous demands, the level of in- with Lifshitz, Alexander Il’ich assemblies of materials. These tellectual life was also very high. Akhiezer, Giorgii Nikolaevich experiments were absolutely We not only read a great deal of Flerov, and many other very inter- necessary in order to understand artistic literature, we also looked at esting people. the physics of nuclear fission and all the new inventions and new sci- neutron transport. entific discoveries. When we had Los Alamos Science: How did you free time, we were involved in become involved in nuclear-weapons I was in the department headed by sports. Many of us were interested work? Flerov, and I also worked with in theater, and at every opportunity Sakharov and many other great men during our trips to Moscow we went Pavlovskii: In my time, the Soviet who are too numerous to mention. to plays. In those first few years at Union had a specialized program for From the point of view of a scien- Arzamas, I saw more shows than I bringing people into a variety of tist, it was a very unusual time, and have seen over the course of the rest types of work. After you finished at a very interesting and productive of my life. the institute or the university, you time. All the questions facing us would be given your choice of sev- were brand new. In hindsight, other Los Alamos Science: How far is eral places where you might want to people may look at the development Arzamas from Moscow? work. When I picked Arzamas, I of thermonuclear weapons somewhat didn’t really know what was going differently, but back then all of us Pavlovskii: It’s about 200 miles or on at that institute. I had a romantic were quite sure that in order to pre- an hour’s plane ride. The Institute notion of something new, something serve peace and maintain a stable was necessarily isolated because of 1993 Number 21 Los Alamos Science 83 Interview with Alexander Ivanovich Pavlovskii the work that was going on there, Los Alamos Science: Would you re- ously, you had to come to the same but the work sent us to Moscow, mind us of the dates of the major conclusions. Leningrad, which is now St. Peters- Soviet weapons developments? burg, and other cities, so we traveled Los Alamos Science: Perhaps you quite often. Pavlovskii: Our first test of an would like to say more about the atomic bomb was in 1949, the first conditions under which you were Los Alamos Science: Is it true that hydrogen bomb was in August 1953, working compared with those of the scientists were able to fly to and in November 1955 we tested our American scientists. Moscow with their families just to first thermonuclear bomb. attend the theater or enjoy some Pavlovskii: There was a very big leisure time? Los Alamos Science: There was a difference during the 1950s because time when the Ameri- we had very little laboratory equip- cans believed the ment. We had to develop amplifiers, Russians were six discriminators, and other electronics months ahead in de- needed for our experiments from veloping a thermonu- spare parts left over from the equip- clear device, and the ment of some Canadian radio sta- government poured tions that had been lend-leased dur- money into Los ing World War II. Despite the poor Alamos to accelerate conditions, our specialists were still our research. able to come up with electronic equipment that performed no worse Pavlovskii: I don’t than that of our American counter- know whether we parts. The lack of equipment meant Vladimir Chernyshev (l), Max Fowler (c), and Alexander Pavlovskii were months ahead of we had to apply more intellectual (r) at Los Alamos. you, but the bench- skill. It is a much more difficult mark steps that I list- task to develop the needed apparatus Pavlovskii: Yakov Zeldovich and ed were not experimental tests, they than to order it from some company. Yuli Khariton were absolutely enam- were full-scale nuclear-weapons ored of the theater, and they would tests. If you’ve read Sakharov’s The amplifiers we worked on, for ex- sometimes take time off to visit memoirs, you would remember that ample, were done using Elmore’s Moscow and attend the theaters. he referred to the first hydrogen book, a standard electronics text bombs as Idea 1 and Idea 2. from those years. We needed to mea- Los Alamos Science: Arzamas, it Sakharov mentioned these early sure very fast processes in gas dy- seems, had a collection of great ideas because he was a very proper, namics, and special amplifiers had to physicists just as Los Alamos did very good person, and he wanted to be built to record the signals. You during the Manhattan Project. demonstrate the creative contribu- eventually developed the PHERMEX tions of Vitaly Ginzburg. The third radiographic facility in the United Pavlovskii: Yes, we had many idea, which led to modern thermonu- States. But in those days we just renowned physicists, but also some clear weapons, really belongs to didn’t have the capability of making young, inexperienced specialists; I Sakharov. But as Sakharov himself that kind of equipment. Nonetheless, was among the latter group. When I has written, he and Zeldovich both we achieved some very-good-quality arrived at Arzamas in 1951, Andrei developed Idea 3 together.