Fourth Session, 40th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Monday, October 26, 2015 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 30, Number 2

THE HONOURABLE LINDA REID, SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

Fourth Session, 40th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. John Rustad Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development and Minister Responsible for TransLink ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Minister of Education ...... Hon. Mike Bernier Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Minister of Small Business and Red Tape Reduction and Minister Responsible for the Liquor Distribution Branch ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Michelle Stilwell Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon. Todd Stone Minister of State for Emergency Preparedness ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... John Horgan Deputy Speaker ...... Richard T. Lee Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Pat Pimm Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... -Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton Abbotsford South ...... Dr. Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East –Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Hon. Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Westside-Kelowna Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Comox Valley...... Don McRae Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Vacant Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta North ...... Wm. Scott Hamilton Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hamilton, Wm. Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Island ...... Claire Trevena Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Parksville-Qualicum ...... Hon. Michelle Stilwell Letnick, Hon. Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River North ...... Pat Pimm Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Peace River South ...... Hon. Mike Bernier McRae, Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Penticton...... Dan Ashton Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Port Coquitlam ...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mike Morris Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Plecas, Dr. Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Saanich South ...... Lana Popham Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Skeena ...... Robin Austin Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Stilwell, Hon. Michelle (BC Liberal)...... Parksville-Qualicum Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver-Fairview ...... George Heyman Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver–False Creek ...... Sam Sullivan Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Moira Stilwell Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Vacant Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver–Point Grey ...... David Eby Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Vacant ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Jordan Sturdy Vacant ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Westside-Kelowna ...... Hon. Christy Clark

Party Standings: BC Liberal 48; New Democratic 33; Independent 2; Vacant 2

CONTENTS

Monday, October 26, 2015 Aft ernoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Ministerial Statements ...... 9735 Community response to boat accident in Tofi no Hon. N. Yamamoto S. Fraser

Introductions by Members ...... 9735

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 9737 Vineglass winery cancer fundraisers L. Larson Tri-City chapter of Valley Women’s Network S. Robinson Cybersecurity and protection of data J. Martin 100th anniversary of University of British Columbia D. Eby Palliative care fundraising walk by Ian Bos G. Kyllo Drop Everything and Read event R. Fleming

Oral Questions ...... 9739 Government record-keeping and freedom of information J. Horgan Hon. A. Virk D. Routley G. Heyman Hon. T. Stone Highway 16 bus service implementation and government consultation records C. Trevena Hon. T. Stone Environmental impact statement on Deltaport expansion V. Huntington Hon. M. Polak Deaths of mother and son in Prince Rupert and inquest recommendations on transit services J. Rice Hon. S. Cadieux

Tabling Documents ...... 9743 B.C. Ferries Commissioner, annual report, fi scal year ending March 31, 2015

Petitions ...... 9743 K. Conroy Orders of the Day

Government Motions on Notice ...... 9743 Motion 26 — Electoral Boundaries Commission report proposals (continued) L. Krog D. Ashton R. Fleming D. McRae S. Chandra Herbert D. Bing C. Trevena Hon. S. Anton B. Routley R. Sultan R. Austin D. Barnett

Personal Statement ...... 9777 Clarifi cation of comments made in the House Hon. T. Stone 9735

MONDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2015 I also want to acknowledge the Coast Guard, search and rescue, Tofi no emergency services personnel and Th e House met at 1:34 p.m. the staff of the Tofi no Hospital for being there and do- ing so much. [Madame Speaker in the chair.] As well, I’d like to thank those from Ahousat and Opitsat, right across from Tofi no, Nuu-chah-nulth com- Routine Business munities, who were there to help — who are always there to help. Ministerial Statements Th e town is reeling, including all of those in the whale- watching fraternity. It’s a close-knit group. Th eir hurt re- COMMUNITY RESPONSE fl ects the pain of the loss of the families and the friends TO BOAT ACCIDENT IN TOFINO of those who lost their lives or are fi ghting to recover. I spoke with Mayor Josie Osborne again this morning, Hon. N. Yamamoto: I stand today feeling heavy- and she informed me that there will be a community hearted for both the families of the lost and those that meeting to help people come to grips with this tragedy. survived the terrible tragedy off the coast of Tofi no. Th e It’ll be held at the community centre, the community hall waters of our rugged coast were cruel in their taking of in Tofi no, at fi ve o’clock. fi ve British nationals who were exploring our province’s raw beauty and rare glimpses of nature before the sink- Introductions by Members ing of the whale-watching vessel. [1335] R. Austin: It’s my pleasure to welcome to British I share with all members of the House today our sad- Columbia and to our House a visiting delegation from ness for the people involved, for the lost and the sur- the Parliament of Kenya — Sen. Wilfred Machage, MP, viving, for both passengers and crew. We recognize the the Chair of the Joint Committee on Parliamentary heartbreak for the families and friends whose loved ones Broadcast and Library of the Parliament of Kenya. He’s won’t return, and we recognize the trauma of those who visiting us here because he’s interested in learning about witnessed yet survived the ordeal. the broadcasting of parliamentary proceedings and the I extend our gratitude for the quick and selfl ess actions structures and systems in place to improve performance of the Ahousat First Nation as well as all rescue and re- as well as public participation in parliament. sponse personnel who responded with help in order to Joining him in the gallery are two people: fi rstly, a dip- prevent greater tragedy. Th eir incredible eff orts saved lomat, Mr. Edwin Afande, who is a counsellor with the lives, and for that we are all grateful. high commission of Kenya — stationed, of course, in I want to also acknowledge the people of Tofi no, a Ottawa — as well as Mr. Donald Schneider, a facilitator. small community but with a big heart, that came together Th e delegation met with Madame Speaker and mem- to show compassion and care. Th ey opened their homes bers as well as staff of Hansard broadcasting services. and opened their hearts to victims. Th ey brought food, Th ey’ll continue their meetings this aft ernoon and to- and they brought blankets. Th ey said prayers and off ered morrow with staff from the information and technology unconditional support. branch and the parliamentary education offi ce. I ask the House today to join me in expressing I would ask that all members of the House join me our deeply felt condolences, on behalf of all British in giving them a very warm British Columbia welcome. Columbians, for those in their grief today. Hon. A. Virk: Joining us in the members’ gallery this S. Fraser: As we all know now, yesterday aft ernoon a aft ernoon are special guests from the Solomon Islands. 20-foot whale-watching vessel sank off of Vargas Island, Th e Hon. Rollen Seleso, Deputy Premier of Guadalcanal near Tofi no. Th ere were 27 people on board. Five have Province, is accompanied by Mr. Anthony Veke, mem- been confi rmed dead. One is still missing. ber of the Legislative Assembly of Guadalcanal Province; I know I speak for all of us in this Legislative Assembly Mr. Ashwant Dwivedi, honorary consul general for the in offering our sincere condolences to the families, Solomon Islands; and Mr. Leni Delavera, news director friends and loved ones of those victims. Our collective for the Solomon Islands Broadcasting Corporation. hearts go out to them. Th e Deputy Premier and his entourage are here to It is yet to be determined the cause of the accident, strengthen trade ties and educational ties with British what went wrong. Th at will unfold in the days and the Columbia. I will meet with the Deputy Premier and the weeks to come. But I want to acknowledge the people of members of the Legislative Assembly later today. the district of Tofi no. Th ey rallied. Everyone who was I would ask this House to please extend a warm wel- on the water or could be on the water was on the water come to the Deputy Premier and his team. to help. [1340] 9736 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

H. Bains: In the gallery — I think they’re all there. I gentleman who I went to university with here in Victoria met with them. I think they are slowly making their way a few years ago. He actually remained here in Victoria — up to the gallery. Two of the, I would say, world-renowned a very successful practice in a wide range of public en- Punjabi writers are here to claim…. Th ey are the win- gagement, public consulting. I’d ask the House to please ners of the Dhahan Punjabi literary award. Th e fi rst one make Ross Porter welcome here today as well. is Darshan Singh, along with his wife, Tarlochan Kaur. Another one, from Pakistan, is Nain Sukh. He’s also a J. Rice: I have fi ve guests in the gallery this aft ernoon. renowned writer, and he also won the Dhahan Punjabi Michael Smith is originally from the east coast and has literary award. Along with them are my good friend, recently moved to Prince Rupert from Terrace, B.C., to Raghbir Singh, who is also a Punjabi professor and writ- expand his business as an insurance adjuster. With the er himself, and Sadhu Binning, who taught Punjabi lan- frequent adverse weather we experience in Prince Rupert, guage at UBC. He’s retired now. He brought them here. I am sure that we have enough fl ying shingles and leaky Please help me give them a warm welcome. roofs to see his business prosper, and I wish him well. I’d like to introduce Faith Bodnar and Danielle Kelliher Hon. M. Bernier: One of the industries that’s really from Inclusion B.C. Inclusion B.C. held a conference to- important in my riding is wind energy. I have three active day in Victoria, announcing a plan for regional advocate wind farms right now in my riding, with another one be- positions to help families supporting those with develop- ing constructed as we speak. mental disabilities and special needs. In the House today, I have the privilege of intro- [1345] ducing some friends of mine. First, from ENERCON I’d also like to introduce Kim Heddon from Nelson, a Canada, we have Catherine Sauriol, Karine Asselin, mother of an adult child with developmental disabilities. Nicolas Bourbonniere and Michael Weidemann. From Kim spoke passionately today and reminded us that with- Boralex, we have Alistair Howard and Hugues Giradin. out respite and supports in place for families such as hers, Also, we have the proponent from Blue Fuel, which is a things, the basics that we take for granted in this House, project that’s looking at being constructed just between such as a night out, a date with our spouse or even caring Chetwynd and Dawson Creek. With us from Blue Fuel for our own health, are not an option when you provide we have Juergen Puetter. Will the House please make all 24-7 care for another person. of them very welcome. Cyndie Richdale is here from the Victoria area, who also shared her experience and challenges with access- S. Chandra Herbert: I’m pleased to introduce to this ing services. House three people who are probably not strangers to Lastly, I’d like to introduce Michelle Watson. Michelle mayors, councillors, labour leaders, business leaders. Th ey is the sister of Angie Robinson and the aunt of Robbie really seem to have become veteran activists. I speak of Robinson, who were lost to a tragic murder-suicide on Rupert and Franny Yakelashek, who are eleven years old World Autism Day, in Prince Rupert. Michelle is very and eight years old, respectively, advocating for the right grateful that a coroner’s inquest was recently conducted, to clean, healthy air, water and land and doing so with pas- but she eagerly awaits measurable, tangible results from sion, with smarts and wisdom much beyond their years — the recommendations coming from the inquest. Michelle and of course, with their able assistant, the very wonderful is a smart woman of great strength, and I commend her Skye Ladell. Please make them very welcome, meet with for taking a public stand on such a deeply personal aff air them, encourage them and, hopefully, learn from them. in order to better the lives of other families facing similar diffi culties. I thank her for that. Hon. T. Stone: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to Would the House make my guests feel welcome. welcome two individuals to the House today — fi rst off , a good friend and constituent from Kamloops–South A. Weaver: I’m absolutely delighted today to introduce Th ompson, Ken McClelland. He is here as the president to the House some very special students and staff from of the B.C. Off -Road Motorcycle Association. South Island Distance Education School. Th e students He has been a strong and ardent supporter of the Off - are young adults with special needs who are very excited Road Vehicle Coalition across British Columbia and has to be here today. I’d also like to thank the teachers and been involved in working with this government and other staff at SIDES for the incredible contribution they make organizations that, really, led to today’s event on the front to the greater Victoria community and, indeed, across steps of the Legislature, where off -road-vehicle regula- the province. tions were discussed, all in an eff ort to promote aware- Th e students are Becky Hanson; Ben Valurop; Emily ness of the fact that the Off -Road Vehicle Act will come Medwid; Joel Wright, son of my press secretary, Mat into force on November 1. I’d ask that the House please Wright. Th e teachers here today are Elaine Ethier and make Ken McClelland welcome here today. Dana Crow. I would ask the House to please make them The second individual is a good friend of mine, a feel very welcome. Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9737

Statements What impressed me most was how this gathering is a (Standing Order 25B) place to connect like-minded business women to inspire, grow, connect and network toward success, not just pro- VINEGLASS WINERY CANCER FUNDRAISERS fessionally but personally as well. I wish I had known about this group when I was build- L. Larson: Roger and Jill Hol, after farming for 27 ing my counselling practice a number of years ago. I years, decided to take what they had learned as farm- would have loved having a group of collaborative, inspir- ers and develop a refuge of rest and tranquility off ering ing women to hold my hand when taking a risk, cheer- simple food, wonderful wines, recreation and friendship. lead for me when struggling with a business decision, Seven years ago they put their dream on the ground and mentor me when I was fi rst starting out. began Vineglass winery and B and B in Cawston, along the [1350] Similkameen River. Th eir goal: to demonstrate environ- Th ese are the activities that I witnessed in just a few mental and social sustainability, practising good land stew- short hours in this luncheon. The Valley Women’s ardship and good relationships with local First Nations. Network, Tri-City chapter, has a monthly newsletter, of- Jill, unfortunately, was diagnosed with cancer and aft er fers seminars and provides marketing opportunities. Th ey getting through the fi rst rounds of treatment, made a de- have monthly keynote speakers, informative table discus- cision with Roger to hold a cancer fundraising event at sion and provide lots and lots of opportunity to network. Vineglass. Four years ago they held their fi rst dinner and Th e Valley Women’s Network, Tri-City chapter, under- silent auction, raising $10,000 for cancer research. Th e stands that coming together, sharing information and event was so successful they repeated it the following year. helping each other are elements that can bring success As fate would have it, Jill’s battle with cancer was not to everyone. Witnessing these women of all ages from all over, and in June 2014, she lost her heroic fi ght. Roger walks of life come together on a monthly basis to support went ahead with the September fundraiser in 2014 in each other, learn from each other and inspire each other Jill’s memory and again this year. In the years since the is what community is all about. event began, it has raised more than $50,000 for the B.C. I am proud to have such a wonderful group of women Cancer Agency, dedicating all the funds to prevention meet each month in my constituency. I look forward to and awareness. I have had the privilege of attending this joining them again next month. event for the last three years. According to the Central Okanagan Development CYBERSECURITY AND Commission, almost all studies on agritourism indicate PROTECTION OF DATA the most important factors that determine an entrepre- neur’s success are personality, attitude, business experi- J. Martin: In today’s connected world, cybersecurity ence and physical ability. Roger Hol exemplifi es the traits. is more important than ever. We all have devices we use He is generous with his 30 years of farming experience every day. From our cell phones and tablets to our com- and has not lost his enthusiasm for creating a farm-to- puters at work and at home, we are constantly connected. table experience his visitors will remember always. We want all British Columbians to be cyber-aware and People like Roger show all of us every day the dedica- take steps to protect themselves and their data. tion to quality and experience that makes the agriculture October is Cyber Security Awareness Month, and I business in B.C. one to be proud of. I know that Roger want to take this time to remind everyone of some simple and Jill’s dream will continue, and the moneys raised for steps we can all take to make it harder for anyone to ac- cancer research will make a diff erence to the future of cess your information or fi les without permission. Good others who are still struggling with this disease. cybersecurity protects you from things such as identity Th ank you, Roger. theft , phone scams, hackers or ransomware. Ransomware encrypts your computer data unless you pay up. TRI-CITY CHAPTER OF Any password shorter than seven characters may be VALLEY WOMEN’S NETWORK cracked within a day by the fastest password crackers. We can take all these steps, such as having complex pass- S. Robinson: I had the privilege of attending a local words, avoiding strange e-mail attachments and being business networking lunch two weeks ago. It was a gath- careful with how you share your information. Th ese are ering of amazing business owners and entrepreneurs. Th e all important ways you can protect yourself and your data. Valley Women’s Network, Tri-City chapter, had well over To learn more, people can visit the Cyber Security 50 members in attendance. Th e energy in the room was Awareness Month page on the chief information offi cer’s so impressive. Th e stories of commitment, hard work and website. You can take a quiz on a range of cybersecurity collaboration described how these women were dedicat- topics and see how well you do. You can learn more infor- ing themselves to establish and build their businesses and mation about how you can protect yourself from cyber- to follow their dreams. attacks and how to talk to your children and help protect 9738 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

them on line. With security awareness, you will be able to when Ian set off from the Atlantic Ocean on foot with identify potential risks or threats and avoid becoming a the goal of walking across our country. victim. We can all take these steps to minimize those risks. [1355] Ian is from New Glasgow, Nova Scotia, where his fath- 100th ANNIVERSARY OF er, Ted Bos, passed away last January. Ted died aft er a UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA valiant fi ght against cancer, but he died on his own terms, with his family by his side, where he wanted to be. Th e D. Eby: In 1908, the province of British Columbia fact that he was able to die at home was a result of the passed the B.C. University Act. Th e act provided for the compassion and care provided by the Aberdeen Palliative establishment of a new university that would provide Care Society in New Glasgow. “such instruction in all branches of liberal education as Ian Bos wanted to do something to honour his father may enable students to become profi cient in science, com- and, at the same time, to raise awareness of hospice and merce, arts, literature, law, medicine and all other branch- palliative care. So Ian set off across Canada, hoping to es of knowledge.” It was an ambitious goal, to be sure, but raise $25,000 for the Aberdeen Palliative Care Society one that has been ably met by the university’s teachers, re- and raise money and awareness for palliative care soci- searchers, administrators and students for more than 100 eties in cities across Canada. years, as UBC celebrates its centenary this year. As much as Ted Bos was an inspiration to his son Ian, In 1913, the university’s first president, Dr. Frank Ian is also an inspiration to Canadians. On October 12, Ian Wesbrook, was appointed. Dr. Wesbrook set the tone reached Salmon Arm and was welcomed by Sue McCrae for UBC as a school interested not just in research and and the great people of the Shuswap Hospice Society. learning but how that research and learning aff ects daily I want to thank Sue and the society for all the great life. As an expert in public health, Dr. Wesbrook was a work that they do and for bringing Ian’s walk to my champion of the idea of chlorinating water to sterilize it, attention. I also want to bring to everyone’s attention the refl ecting his engagement in public life linked directly amazing work and care provided by the Shuswap Hospice to his research, which I am certainly thankful for today. Society and all hospice societies across B.C. In 1918, the fi rst issue of the now famous Ubyssey was On a personal note, my family was fortunate to have published. Th eir fi rst headline was “Freshman Reception” experienced the invaluable services of hospice many and that frosh had the opportunity to shake hands with years ago when my father was battling brain cancer, ser- important personages. It is my hope that the local MLA vices for which my family will be forever grateful. Th e was among those important personages, both as a dem- reality of hospice is that most people aren’t aware of the onstration of commitment to the community but also to amazing care and services they provide until a loved one how it’s unchanging that frosh see the local MLA as an is in end-of-life care. important personage. I want to thank and recognize Ian for bringing hos- From a school of all white men studying in shacks pice and palliative care to the attention of people across in Fairview in 1915 to today’s beautiful Point Grey and Canada and congratulate Ian on his life-changing jour- Okanagan campuses in 2015 with cutting-edge research ney from Atlantic to Pacifi c. facilities and diverse faculty and students from all over Finally, Ian will be here on the front steps of the the world, UBC has come a long way in 100 years. Legislature today at four o’clock. I hope that colleagues I’m honoured and proud to have been a very small from both sides of the House will join me in meeting with part of this tradition as an adjunct professor in the Ian and wishing him well. Allard School of Law. I can say based on experience that the UBC students are up to the challenge of the motto DROP EVERYTHING AND READ EVENT — Tuum Est in Latin — It’s Up to You. Th ey’re ready to change the world. R. Fleming: Since 2007, the British Columbia Teacher- Congratulations to UBC on 100 years of success, Librarian Association has challenged British Columbians teaching, researching and building tomorrow’s economy to drop everything and read for 20 minutes, a challenge for our province today. that occurs every fourth Monday of October at 11 a.m. Today marks that special day when students and adults are PALLIATIVE CARE asked to put down the pens and pencils, turn off their com- FUNDRAISING WALK BY IAN BOS puters and phones, and pick up a book and enjoy reading. Either silently or together, reading strengthens con- G. Kyllo: An inspirational story of courage, love and nections, exposes us to diff erent ideas and beliefs, and determination nears its conclusion in Victoria today just improves our ability to absorb information. Today’s a few steps from here. Th is aft ernoon Ian Bos will reach celebration of reading promotes the importance of lit- Mile Zero in Beacon Hill Park, overlooking the Pacifi c eracy and reminds families to make reading a priority Ocean. It was fi ve months ago, on May 21, to be exact, in their lives. Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9739

Today also marks B.C. school library day and is the Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on perfect time, across our province, to encourage students a supplemental. to explore their school library, search through the books available to them and choose their favourites. J. Horgan: It’s always a treat to ask the minister ques- I want to thank all of our public and school librarians tions because you get, really early on, the message for the and library assistants for the important role they play in day. I think it’s going to be “core government” rather than helping young learners explore their love of learning and the political servants that are hired by the Premier’s of- reading. I would challenge everyone — because there is fi ce to oversee activities in ministers’ offi ces. Ms. Denham, still time remaining in this day — including members of the Privacy Commissioner, laid out quite clearly for the this House, to fi nd the time to drop everything and read public what goes on in ministers’ offi ces, what goes on books, articles for their knowledge and for their pleasure. in the Minister of Transportation’s offi ce, what goes on underneath the nose of the minister responsible for the Oral Questions act and, of course, what goes on in the Premier’s offi ce. Let’s go back to the minister of liquefi ed natural gas GOVERNMENT RECORD-KEEPING for a moment. It was curious to us that there would only AND FREEDOM OF INFORMATION be three e-mails in existence coming from the minister’s offi ce over a three-week period, when fl agship legislation J. Horgan: You’ll recall that last spring we asked was being tabled. So we asked for the message-tracking a series of questions about abuse of the Freedom of documents from the Minister of Citizens’ Services. Information Act of the Minister of Citizens’ Services. At We determined through that route — the fi ne print, if that time, the minister insisted that only professional you will, of the government’s access-to-information law public servants were managing, in a detailed and com- — that Ms. Myers sent 800 e-mails over that three-week prehensive way, requests for information from the public period. So 797 triple deletes is a whole lot of triple deletes. to his government. He even went as far as to say…. In those 800 e-mails, there were e-mails sent to Mr. I can’t resist but to read the quote back to him, for the Spencer Sproule, who may be familiar to members on record. Th e minister at the time said: “Well, it’s even more this side. He used to work in the Premier’s offi ce as her abundantly clear that I’ve got to provide a copy of the act issue management director. He now, of course, is the to the member opposite, and perhaps I’ve got to provide chief spokesperson for Petronas, the lead agency looking the member opposite with training under the act as well.” at natural gas here in British Columbia. Several e-mails Of course, that’s only slightly humorous if it wouldn’t to Mr. Sproule. be so absolutely tragic that the minister responsible for Jared Kuehl, the head deputy of government relations the act was holding up his commitment to protecting the at Shell; Neil Mackie, from AltaGas; and right to the min- rights of individuals in British Columbia and their abil- ister’s offi ce in Ottawa — 800 e-mails, and we got three. ity to access information with such a faulty, faulty line. My question is to the minister of openness and trans- What we did last November is we asked for informa- parency in B.C. Liberal–land. Can he explain how it is tion pertaining to any e-mails from the chief of staff to the that when we asked for 800, we only got three? Minister of Natural Gas, Tobie Myers. Ms. Myers, of course, at the time we asked, was in discussions with people within Hon. A. Virk: Th e fundamental notion that the man- the sector about legislation that was going to be before this ner and mechanism by which key decisions are noted is in House. What we got back from that request for informa- the ministry’s offi ces, all across diff erent ministries, and tion over a three-week period were three e-mails, just three. the fundamental notion that perhaps e-mails are the place I’m wondering if the minister can confi rm that those where those key decisions are noted, are fundamentally are the only three e-mails that were available during that incorrect. But it’s a moot point. Th e Premier has sent a three-week period. directive, and the members opposite certainly know that. [1400] Interjections. Hon. A. Virk: Th e Leader of the Opposition certainly wants to canvass the manner in which government re- Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, the Chair will hear sponds to freedom-of-information requests. the answer. Th e expectation all across core government is that when there are key documents — key documents that record Hon. A. Virk: Th e members opposite certainly know key government decisions, key policy decisions — min- that the Premier sent a directive this last Friday to all min- istries keep those appropriate records. Th at expectation is isters and all political staff instructing them, irrespective across core government. Th e expectation across core gov- of whether an e-mail is transitory or not, that all sent e- ernment is also that all employees, all across core govern- mails are retained until such time as Mr. Loukidelis has an ment, follow the letter and intent of the legislation as well. opportunity to look at all 11 recommendations, provide 9740 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

guidance on how to take action on all those recommen- Interjections. dations and, further, how to increase the training in FOI. Madame Speaker: Order. J. Horgan: What the good news here is, is the minister actually understood what the Premier said last Friday in Hon. A. Virk: Key decisions of government, key policy Merritt, because I don’t think there’s another person on decisions of government, are recorded in the appropriate the planet that could make any sense out of what she said. places. Th e suggestion that e-mails are the place where key I recall that the Premier said that the status quo was in government decisions are retained is absolutely incorrect. play, but things were in fl ux. Only in Liberal land can you And there’s an expectation. Th e Document Disposal Act of stay fi rm to the status quo while you’re in fl ux. 1936 makes it very clear. Key government documents are to [1405] be retained. However, there is no requirement to keep tran- Technology’s changing. I heard that as well. As the sient documents, to keep documents that are copies or con- minister made reference to transitory documents — I venience copies. Th ose are not key government documents. think that will be the fi g leaf, aft er “core government,” for the day — I want to draw his attention to the document Madame Speaker: Th e member for Nanaimo–North provided by his ministry, the 797 e-mails that were sent Cowichan on a supplemental. from Ms. Myers’s e-mail. Some of these transitory docu- ments are severed on this document under section 17 of D. Routley: Th e minister assures us that he has a plan, the act, which means potentially harmful to the interests a comprehensive plan. He’s going to get to the bottom of of the Crown. this, the man who was forced by a whistle-blower to come If that’s the case, if 17 of these e-mails can be severed clean about his shady dealings at Kwantlen Polytechnic on a transition document, a message-tracking document, University. I think we’ve seen this movie before. It’s because they are harmful to the Crown, then surely to Groundhog Day. Rather than just wring his hands and goodness, they weren’t transitory documents. promise to do better…. I have a modest suggestion for Can the minister explain to me how it is that section 17 the minister, one that will prove how sincere his prom- would apply to e-mails that were transitory documents? I ises are to do better. know he understands the act fully and has been briefed, so [1410] perhaps he can elucidate that information to the rest of us. Th e commissioner’s report says that the government keeps a backlog of e-mails for 13 months. Will the min- Hon. A. Virk: Th e directive by the Premier was quite ister commit to search these backups and to release all clear. Th e member opposite certainly doesn’t want to try the missing records we’ve referred to, including those of to understand or even try to think about it. Th e directive the Premier and of Ms. Myers? is quite clear. Regardless of whether a sent e-mail is transi- tory or not — whether or not it is transitory — a directive Hon. A. Virk: I refer the member back to the recom- has been sent to all ministers, all ministers’ staff , and in fact, mendations. Th ere are, indeed, recommendations made that has been extended to parliamentary secretaries as well. by Commissioner Denham. They are thorough. They Th at is until Mr. Loukidelis has an opportunity to examine talk…. As I mentioned last week, they touch on operation- the 11 recommendations, to provide guidance on how to al, on administrative, on technical, on policy and on legis- take action. We are committed to work with Mr. Loukidelis lation. We are committed to take action on each of them. and take action on all of those recommendations. As I’ve said before, Mr. Loukidelis, a respected for- mer Privacy Commissioner of this province — a Privacy D. Routley: Th is government’s evasions don’t end there. Commissioner who consults across the country — has On Friday, the Premier came out of hiding and said been retained. I have spoken to Mr. Loukidelis. I’ll be that she had never heard of triple-deleting. She said that meeting with him forthwith to discuss the time period she was shocked — shocked — to fi nd out that her own and the scope of him providing advice on how to take chief of staff was breaking the law. Th e Premier was going action on each of those recommendations, including the to stop this. Of course, we requested e-mails and track- one mentioned by the member opposite. ing logs for the Premier for two weeks last December as well. Imagine our surprise when we discovered that the G. Heyman: Last Th ursday, the Minister of Transpor- Premier’s own e-mails had been deleted. tation expressed disappointment in the actions of his chief My question is to the Minister of Citizens’ Services. We of staff . He also said that his staff followed the law 100 per- know that his chief of staff , Nick Facey, has been destroying cent of the time — except when they don’t, and they have his e-mails. But why has the Premier been destroying hers? to be fi red. Sorry, hon. Speaker, that’s not strictly accurate. Th is government doesn’t have the courage to fi re staff Hon. A. Virk: Well, the member opposite is certainly who break the law. Th ey just let them resign and stick tax- demonstrating his lack of knowledge in this area. payers with the legal bills. Yet the most interesting point Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9741

is the minister’s admission that he regularly triple-deletes denied this claim. She said that she had never heard about e-mails, casting himself as role model for the law-break- the practice until she came to work for this minister in ing activities in his offi ce. British Columbia. She said that she was told she needed My question for the Minister of Transportation is: who to learn how to permanently delete e-mails so that infor- taught him to triple delete e-mails to hide important gov- mation didn’t “get out there.” ernment documents? My question to the minister is this. Did he teach George Gretes how to triple delete e-mails, or did he just Interjections. give the orders that led to repeatedly breaking B.C.’s in- formation laws? Madame Speaker: I would caution all members on the use of parliamentary language. Hon. T. Stone: Let me be really direct and very blunt with the member opposite. Th e short answer is no. But I Hon. T. Stone: First, as my colleague, the minister re- will also add this. I have said consistently, including last sponsible, has stated…. Th ursday — I’ll say it again here today — that I expect that all staff in my offi ce, as all of my colleagues also ex- Interjections. pect of staff in their offi ces, to adhere to the legislation. And if an individual does not, there are consequences. Madame Speaker: Just wait. Now, I think that it would appear that the members opposite have actually read the report, and they would Hon. T. Stone: Th ank you, hon. Speaker. know that in the case of the individual in the Ministry of As my colleague has stated, the offi cial record of gov- Transportation offi ce…. According to the commissioner, ernment decisions and the actual refl ection of those de- it would appear that he was not in complete compliance cisions are all retained within our ministry offi ces, right with the act, and, therefore, there are likely to be further across government. consequences. I will add this, though, with respect to the member’s question. Prior to being elected, I was a technology CEO HIGHWAY 16 BUS SERVICE for 15 years. It was a matter of policy in my company, IMPLEMENTATION AND GOVERNMENT from a records management perspective, that in an eff ort CONSULTATION RECORDS to minimize storage space required and minimize costs related to service space, staff , myself included, were en- C. Trevena: Th e Minister of Transportation faces a bit couraged to manage our e-mails appropriately. of a dilemma. Last week, he insisted that triple-deleting I have carried that practice forward to my current role. his e-mail was perfectly acceptable practice. Deleting re- From time to time, as I acknowledged completely on cords about his offi ce’s failure to assist aboriginal women Th ursday of last week, I would empty my deleted folder. in northern B.C. was just fi ne. He said that’s how every- I have never deleted…. I do not delete information that body managed their e-mail. is transitory in nature. I believe that I have acted in com- Now he says he’s going to do things diff erently. Does pliance, to this point, with the appropriate legislation. As he still think it was okay to delete e-mails about the the Premier directed all ministers and political staff and Highway of Tears? parliamentary secretaries last Friday — which I have em- braced and I welcome — I will, as my colleagues will, no Hon. T. Stone: All records pertaining to decisions longer delete any sent e-mails. in the Ministry of Transportation are kept within the Bottom line is I will continue to operate fully within Ministry of Transportation. Th at is true for all subjects. the confi nes of the appropriate legislation. Th at is true for the Highway 16 fi le. I also want to take this opportunity to again acknow- Madame Speaker: Vancouver-Fairview on a supple- ledge the history, to acknowledge the pain, to acknow- mental. ledge the suff ering that families up and down Highway 16 have endured. I cannot overstate the sincerity of G. Heyman: Apparently the Minister of Transportation this government or the commitment of the Ministry of listened to Colin Hansen’s pathetic defence of govern- Transportation to continue to work with First Nations ment policy on CBC this morning and now thinks that communities and others on Highway 16 to identify safer British Columbians who want access to information transportation options. should engage in a treasure hunt. I have mentioned a number of those initiatives that [1415] have been pursued to date. Th ere are many more that George Gretes said that the Minister of Transportation’s we’re working on. We are looking forward, in particular, administrative coordinator taught him how to triple-de- to a transportation symposium, which we are co-spon- lete e-mails. Th e minister’s administrative coordinator soring with the First Nations Health Authority, that will 9742 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

be held in Smithers this coming November, during which Madame Speaker: If you made the utterance, you time we will continue to discuss and identify additional need to withdraw. initiatives which will make this corridor even safer. K. Corrigan: I withdraw. Madame Speaker: Th e member for North Island on a supplemental. Madame Speaker: Th ank you very much.

C. Trevena: What the minister seems to forget is that ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT this sordid aff air started as a result of an FOI request ON DELTAPORT EXPANSION about the Highway of Tears. Th at’s how we came to know about the triple-deletion of e-mails, because the minis- V. Huntington: This spring Port Metro Vancouver ter clearly did not want the public to know about the real released its environmental impact statement on the concerns of aboriginal women in northern B.C. Th ey are Deltaport expansion. The Minister of Environment afraid for their safety, and they want access to very basic agreed that B.C. would do its own assessment but that levels of transportation. it would rely principally on the federal assessment. It’s [1420] called independence. B.C.’s environmental offi ce, we were Th e minister has claimed that they haven’t got such told, would request further information when necessary. concerns, and he appeared proud that he had triple-de- Th ere are 7,663 pages in the environmental impact leted e-mails. Th ese are records — e-mails from families statement. Four federal agencies, numerous individ- looking for answers, from women who are seeking safe- uals and organizations, my own offi ce, and even the U.S. ty, from relatives and friends and the communities of Environmental Protection Agency identifi ed information missing and murdered women. How can he justify that? gaps. But B.C.’s EAO had no comment. It declared the impact statement “complete.” Could the minister explain Hon. T. Stone: All records pertaining to Highway 16 why her environmental assessment offi ce utterly failed to are intact. Th ese records are all intact. Th ey are all stored speak up for B.C.’s interests? appropriately. Hon. M. Polak: Whenever we are coordinating pro- Interjections. cesses with the federal government, it’s important to understand fi rstly that by working together and by rely- Madame Speaker: Members will come to order. ing on information acquired through the federal process, that doesn’t necessarily mean that decisions are the same. Interjection. With respect to relying on information, our offi ces assess information that has been gathered. Madame Speaker: Order. In the case of responding to information requests or Please continue. input, I would be happy to provide the member with an opportunity to discuss with the EAO staff in terms of Hon. T. Stone: Th ese records are all retained by the their approach specifi cally to this application. Th ere are Ministry of Transportation, as per the freedom-of-infor- many avenues through which our two offi ces communi- mation legislation. Th ey are all available. cate, especially when we are coordinating environmental I want to also reiterate the ministry’s commitment to assessments. continuing to be as transparent as possible. Just since 2012, the Ministry of Transportation has actually re- Madame Speaker: Th e member for Delta South on a sponded to six diff erent FOI requests related to Highway supplemental. 16. Th e ministry has released almost 600 pages of infor- mation in those FOI requests. Th ree of those informa- V. Huntington: Let me assure the minister that I’ve tion responses were put onto open gov and are available been thoroughly briefed by her offi ce. Th ese were com- to members opposite. Th ree others were responded to, ments made pursuant to the public input or the input to directly to the applicant. Th is material can…. the environmental impact statement that was required under the law. Interjections. [1425] Terminal 2 will be in the middle of a wildlife manage- Madame Speaker: Members. Members. ment area. It will impact Canada’s greatest salmon and If Burnaby–Deer Lake made that utterance, she needs wildlife migrations. It will require the sale or transfer of to withdraw. provincially owned water lots, and it will impact the agri- cultural land reserve. Yet the EAO advised my offi ce that K. Corrigan: Sorry, I didn’t hear you, Madame Speaker. B.C.’s jurisdiction was limited to areas like noise, traffi c, Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9743

light and air quality. Even within those limitations, the We are always looking at ways that we can improve the EAO had no comment. way we deliver services, the way we deliver supports to But the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency families. Th ere is no argument that families who are cop- had comments. In July, it confi rmed that multiple prov- ing with disabilities that their children have, families that incial responsibilities had been omitted by the port. are coping with the stresses — fi nancial, emotional and I ask the minister: why did it take a federal agency like physical — of dealing with these tremendously complex Health Canada to discover that B.C.’s air quality object- issues, are struggling. Th ey all struggle. What we do as ives, set by her own ministry just last year, had been omit- a government is attempt, as best we can, to provide sup- ted from the port’s impact statement? ports and services to assist those families in managing and creating a good life for themselves and their children. Hon. M. Polak: In fact, most aspects of this project do fall within federal jurisdiction. When we approach [End of question period.] an environmental assessment of this nature, if there are, in fact, at the end of the process, matters with which we Tabling Documents think the federal process has not dealt adequately, then we can certainly pursue those on our own, and we will. Hon. S. Anton: I have today the report of the B.C. But this matter is still in process, and as such, we rely on ferries commissioner, Annual Report for the Fiscal Year the federal government to act within their jurisdiction. Ending March 31, 2015. We backstop that with respect to validating that those [1430] interests of British Columbia’s have been investigated and assessed properly. And if not, then we pursue them. K. Conroy: I seek leave to present a petition.

DEATHS OF MOTHER AND SON IN PRINCE Madame Speaker: Please proceed. RUPERT AND INQUEST RECOMMENDATIONS ON TRANSIT SERVICES Petitions

J. Rice: Today Michelle Watson spoke publicly K. Conroy: Th is petition, originated by Gloria Lisgo, about the tragedy that took the lives of her sister Angie a retired registered nurse from New Denver, has over Robinson and her nephew Robert. Her sister was a single 4,200 signatures, of which 86 percent are residents of the mom whose son had severe autism. Th e coroner’s inquest Kootenays and 14 percent are tourists. It requests that the found that Angie did not get the support and respite care B.C. government enforce regulations 7.03 and 22 of the she needed from this government. Angie’s sister said to- Motor Vehicle Act to bring an end to illegal levels of noise day: “Robert would have been here had our child welfare pollution and excessive speed by motorcycles. system been operating eff ectively. When Angie’s services were cut, there was no longer anything for her.” Orders of the Day Faith Bodnar of Inclusion B.C. said today: “We are a province in crisis when it comes to children with spe- Hon. T. Stone: I call continued debate on Motion 26. cial needs.” Th is was a preventable tragedy. When is this govern- [R. Chouhan in the chair.] ment going to stop making excuses and start providing the resources needed to repair the real damage they’ve Government Motions on Notice done to families in this province? When are they going to address two key coroner’s inquest recommendations MOTION 26 — ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES and fi nally act to provide safe, adequate public transpor- COMMISSION REPORT PROPOSALS tation for the communities along Highway 16, otherwise (continued) known as the Highway of Tears? L. Krog: I’m delighted to rise to continue debate on Hon. S. Cadieux: Firstly, our hearts go out to the the motion before the House respecting the Electoral family who’s grieving and to the community and all of the Boundaries Commission report. When I was closing individuals who loved and cared for Angie and Robert. on Thursday evening, I was talking a bit about the The reality is that their situation raises important urban-rural divide in British Columbia. Of course, with issues. Inclusion B.C. does very important work advocat- boundary changes, obviously, that becomes of increasing ing on behalf of British Columbians with developmental importance over time, and certainly for the constituency disabilities and their families. I’ve enjoyed working with I represent, which is Nanaimo. them in the past. Today they’ve also raised some very Historically, in 1871 of course, Nanaimo was both an important issues. urban and a rural constituency. Nanaimo was a small 9744 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

community at that time. It didn’t have city status. It had mation…. In fact, it was the third-poorest constituency the Bastion, of course, that great historical entity, the in the province of British Columbia. Vancouver–Mount symbol of the Hudson’s Bay Company — and colonial- Pleasant was the poorest. I believe Vancouver-Hastings ism and imperialism, arguably. was the next up the line and then Nanaimo. So I am used A stirring symbol that refl ects the way that the First to representing a population who is oft en without much Nations…. hope and who look to this government for support on a whole series of bases. Interjection. Th e most important thing about the Nanaimo con- stituency with respect to the matter of this debate, I L. Krog: The member is calling me to go back to would argue, is that the proposal for its boundaries is, the Magna Carta. He obviously didn’t pay attention on in fact, a fair and reasonable one based on population. Th ursday. I suggest that he read the Blues. I know many of Now, I must say I’m not, from a strictly crass electoral the members are anxious to go back to the Magna Carta. perspective, of course…. Not that electoral politics ever, Perhaps it would provide some salutary direction to the ever enters into the minds of the members of this cham- government in its ethical behaviour today. ber. There is a slight variation which will benefit my However, I come back to my point. Nanaimo was a neighbour, the member for Nanaimo–North Cowichan, recognized constituency in 1871, when we became the and give me a little bit of what was formally his turf province of British Columbia. As the member pointed and amend slightly the boundaries for the member for out the other day, of course, it extends back well before Parksville-Qualicum, the hon. minister. But in essence, that, into colonial times. Nanaimo, the city and the old city, remains whole with Nanaimo today is a very diff erent constituency. When I these recommendations and the boundaries proposed. was fi rst elected, in 2005, it included a great deal of Cedar I come back to my point about the rural-urban divide. and Gabriola Island — a number of rural elements to it. Th ere was a time, of course, when the constituency of I actually had, honest to God, genuine farmers — people Nanaimo contained a number of active mills, when forest- who produce things that we consume. Over time, with ry was king. Prior to forestry, it was coal. Indeed, as many boundary changes, there has…. of the members know, the establishment of the historic Bastion in the constituency of Nanaimo, which has been Interjection. changed so much over time, represented the interest of the governor of at that time, Sir James L. Krog: Th e member is pointing out that we have legal Douglas, recognizing that “Coal Tyee,” as he was known, services. Yes, we certainly do have legal services. And we an aboriginal who pointed out this black rock, was of have one of the most beautiful courthouses, I will point enormous and signifi cance importance to the Hudson’s out to that member, in the province of British Columbia. Bay Company and, indeed, to the British Empire. It is another Frances Mawson Rattenbury. Until then, to fuel that incredible fl eet, to fuel com- I commend the member if he’d love to come to merce around the world, you were running things on coal Nanaimo and spend some time in the courthouse. Indeed, or sail. Of course, steam was coming in, so the import- given what’s happened last week and the comments made, ance of having a ready supply of coal to fuel ships dock- who knows who will end up in the courthouse in the ing at Victoria, particularly with the great gold rush of province of British Columbia from time to time? One 1858, was incredibly important. It provided a great basis can never be too sure about these things. for interest by the powers that be that existed in London It was a recognized centre, and it was an historic part of — a great deal of interest in the outport, this far-fl ung lit- the province — the community I represent. But over time, tle outpost of the British Empire which was Fort Victoria Nanaimo’s boundaries have changed somewhat. It is now and, of course, Nanaimo. what I would describe as a strictly urban-suburban con- Th e Nanaimo constituency is an historic community stituency. Extending from Needham and 5th, out to the in this province. It’s the third-oldest city in the province Parkway, everything inside the Parkway up to Mostar, of British Columbia, actually, aft er New Westminster which turns into Rutherford Road, down to Hammond and Victoria. And of course, I do want to point out to Bay. You hang a left on Hammond Bay, so to speak, and the members opposite who are chirping in from time to then you head down Brickyard. It’s strictly urban-sub- time during the course of this debate that Nanaimo was urban, so it’s a very diff erent constituency. a city long before Vancouver. [1435] It’s not something that I like to emphasize too oft en I might say that with respect to the boundaries, when in the House, but I suppose one could make a joke I had the honour of being elected in 2005, coming back about, you know, it’s quantity over substance or quan- to this place, it wasn’t long aft er that — when statistics tity over quality, but I’d be hesitant to make that remark. were available, before the Conservative government of Th e member for Vancouver–West End is thinking that Mr. Harper decided to kill the long-form statistical infor- maybe one of his colleagues has turned against him, and Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9745

of course, that would never be my suggestion. Chief Electoral Offi cer…. Th at appointee is appointed I’m delighted to represent this community and hon- or nominated by the Speaker of this assembly aft er con- oured to do so and very honoured, also, that it is a con- sultation with the Premier and the Leader of the Offi cial stituency that throughout its history, has had excellent Opposition. representation. Certainly, in my lifetime, in the con- Now, members may laugh and see this as bureaucrat- stituency referred to as Nanaimo, I was ably represented ic. Some people at home may not think this is a terribly — wait for it, Members — by Mike Hunter, the Liberal important thing. But, in terms of ensuring trust in the member, from 2001 to 2005. I’m glad some of the mem- democratic process and the work of electoral boundaries bers over there recognize that there’s such a thing as a commissions, this is extremely important. good Liberal. As I suggested in my remarks on Th ursday, one of the Prior to that, it was represented by from reasons I believe that the total number of submissions in 1986 on. Mr. Lovick’s period of time as the representa- person, arguably, was down from the previous commis- tive for Nanaimo itself also takes us back to one of the sion some years ago, of Judge Eckardt, was because there issues which Judge Eckhart and Justice Fisher recog- is public trust in the process. It is because people don’t nized, which was a problem with British Columbia elec- feel they have to attend and make submissions, other toral politics, which was the issue of dual ridings. In the than what are oft en, I will call, narrow submissions, based 1986 election, when Mr. Lovick was fi rst elected to the on geography and interest, not on the quality of the work Legislature, he and Dave Stupich won that election, but to be done by the commission itself, not complaints about it was a dual riding, a dual constituency. the electoral process, but…. [1440] By the 1991 election, when the Vander Zalm/Rita Interjection. Johnston government fi nally was confi ned to the ash heap of history, the concept of dual ridings was gone. L. Krog: We are indeed well governed by the process. I suspect, on the basis of electoral reform and people’s Th e hon. member says we’re well governed. Well, we just attitudes now, it’s likely gone in perpetuity in British went through question period, and I think some would Columbia. clearly dispute that. Even the press gallery, actually, saw One of the reasons is because over time, as this report some of its members come out in person — people we refl ects, the concept around what electoral boundaries haven’t seen for a while — and show some interest in the commissions do and the work they undertake has be- debate today. It would suggest to me, notwithstanding the come respectable. In other words, there is a signifi cant member’s protestations — and I’m sure he’ll have an op- element of public trust in what electoral boundaries com- portunity to rise and speak later — that perhaps things missions do, and so it should be. are not all well in wonderland, in British Columbia. As I’ve pointed out…. Th e member for Vancouver- But I come back to my point. We are well served by Kingsway provided me with the wonderful article I ref- the legislation that appointed this commission and that erenced on Th ursday: “Th e Cat and Mouse Politics of allowed it to function appropriately. Redistribution: Fair and Effective Representation in And what is its mandate? Well, its mandate is fairly British Columbia,” by Dr. Norman Ruff , my old poli-sci straightforward. It is to make proposals to the Legislative teacher from UVic back when the earth was still cooling. Assembly as to the area boundaries and names of prov- It was published in B.C. Studies — No. 87, autumn 1990. incial electoral districts. As the document itself says: “If We have moved away from that kind of gerryman- our deliberations dictate that the number of electoral dering approach to electoral politics. What this report, districts should be increased, the Electoral Boundaries the fi nal report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission, Commission…allows us to make proposals for up two represents is the essential quality of what good work can additional electoral districts, to a maximum of 87.” be done when you have a completely non-partisan com- Th at is what’s happened. We’ve picked up a couple of mission. seats in British Columbia. Th at’s probably a good thing. I We have three members of the commission: Mr. Justice don’t think I have to mention to the members in this as- Th omas Melnick, justice of the Supreme Court of British sembly who represent constituencies of some geographic Columbia, who chaired; Beverley Busson, OBC, former size that feeling that you can represent appropriately all commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; of your constituents is a great goal but not always avail- and Keith Archer, PhD, the Chief Electoral Offi cer for able to one, in practice. the province of British Columbia. All were required by [1445] statute; all were appointed pursuant to statute. By the time that one spends their time travelling back Most interestingly, I think it’s really important to and forth between Victoria and then trying to attend in note that the commission itself…. The third individ- various communities, that becomes a real issue. ual — who’s not a member of the Legislative Assembly, I come back to my point about the rural-urban div- who’s not a retired Supreme Court judge, who’s not the ide. It is important that the commission recognize that 9746 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

geography, on occasion, does trump population. And ment that took a great deal of time to reach. Th at we that is what the commission has recognized: that the vast would be in a position that we would try and guarantee geography of this province means, quite simply, that you the fairness of our system and the representative democ- cannot have constituencies that have an absolutely equal racy that it stands for, to ensure that British Columbians, — or as close to equal as possible — population. It is not voters across this province, citizens, feel represented ap- only impractical; it is, I would argue, from a representa- propriately…. Not an easy thing. tive perspective, undesirable. When I look at my own constituency, as I say, Nanaimo We are living in a representative democracy. We’re itself has the honour to be represented, in part, at least…. not living in a democracy where every person elected to [1450] this assembly is elected by a constituency of equal size in terms of population. It would be practically impossible. Interjection. Th e commission has recognized, very clearly in this case, as have previous commissions, that it is import- L. Krog: Well, the member says by me. I’m very fl at- ant to do the best that it can. But it recognizes — as the tered, and I thank him for that recognition. But it also has law recognizes and the commission has decided in this the opportunity to be represented by two other very able case — the principles under section 9(1) of the Electoral MLAs — from Parksville-Qualicum, who’s waving over Boundaries Commission Act, which, as the report says, here as if I’d forget her, and the member for Nanaimo– instructs us to be governed by the following: North Cowichan, who likewise is delighted to represent “(a) that the principle of representation by population be portions of the city. achieved, recognizing the imperatives imposed by geographical and demographic realities, the legacy of our history and the Interjection. need to balance the community interests of the people of British Columbia; (b) to achieve that principle, the commission be per- mitted to deviate from a…Provincial electoral quota by no more L. Krog: Now, I’ve been so kind, and the member has than 25%, plus or minus.” to breach the rule about commenting on absences. I think And we may propose electoral districts with population the rule-breaking has become so common on that side deviations exceeding plus-or-minus 25 percent where we of the House, they feel they can get away with anything. consider that very special circumstances exist. It is, as I have said many times in this chamber, a great Th e reality is that in a constituency like Surrey–Green honour to represent the good people of Nanaimo. I men- Timbers, I believe a healthy person in a few hours could tioned the names of Mike Hunter and Dale Lovick; but probably walk all around the boundaries. I’m sure the also , one of the fi rst of that many of the member for Vancouver–West End could probably do the hundred women elected to the B.C. Legislature that we same thing. I suppose, in a day, if I were feeling tremen- have most recently honoured; and at the same time, pri- dously athletic and were in better shape, I might even be or to that, Dave Stupich; and Frank Ney, for a short term, able to do it in my own constituency. But I would defy the 1969-1972. member for Peace River North or Skeena to achieve that, Now, if there was a character who drew attention to the even with the benefi t of a fl ying machine, so to speak. It’s great city of Nanaimo, that was Frank Ney — of course, not realistic, so the Boundaries Commission has the op- a name associated with the bathtub race but who did say, portunity to recognize that geographic reality in coming rather unkindly, of my community, many years ago, that to its report and making its recommendations. if it came to culture versus corn, Nanaimo would take It’s not just the act that guides the work of the com- corn over culture any day. mission. It is also the Canadian Charter of Rights and I know I’ve mentioned that in the House before but Freedoms. We have had case law help us to determine only because I wanted to emphasize that we’ve have come what is the fair and appropriate process to undertake. a long way since then. Th e Boundaries Commission, in It may well be that even with the commission’s good creating this nice, tight little constituency of Nanaimo, work, there will be a constitutional challenge. Th ere is recognizes that. nothing in the law that forecloses that opportunity or Indeed, one of the things that has helped make possibility to the citizens of this province, or any group Nanaimo a dynamic community for the extension of of them, who wish to make that choice. If the commission this boundary is the creation and existence of Malaspina has done its work well and the Legislature has done its College, as it then was, now Vancouver Island University, work well — and there is no guarantee on that — then this previously, the old Nanaimo Vocational School. We have report, the subsequent passage of legislation, will survive just passed…. I think it’s roughly the 75th year since the that potential legal challenge. But we can never know that. founding of the Vocational School. Th e fact that we live in a democratic society where it is It is the incredible international aspect of Vancouver possible to do that — to go back to the Magna Carta, be- Island University that helps make Nanaimo the won- cause I know the members love to hear me use the term derful place it is. I believe the fi gure is 17 percent of — in and of itself, is a remarkable and dramatic achieve- the students at Vancouver Island University are inter- Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9747

national students — 83 countries. If I recall the words Interjection. of the president, Dr. Ralph Nilson, from an address the other morning, 83 diff erent countries have students at L. Krog: Th e member for Chilliwack-Hope is perk- Vancouver Island University. Th e city of Nanaimo itself ing up. I’m delighted to see him paying attention to the has a population of about 88,000, just slightly larger than debate. the city of Victoria. Yale isn’t quite the centre of commerce that it used to When the Boundaries Commission was met with pres- be. I hate to disappoint the member. Perhaps he should entations around this area, one of the things they con- drive up there more oft en and determine that. Chilliwack sidered was the existence of Vancouver Island University might be a somewhat larger centre now and provide and the fact that a number of the people who worked more economic activity. there or students who attended there lived within close I have to recognize that my community doesn’t depend geographical proximity. on king coal any more. I don’t think there’s any likelihood In essence, they extended the boundaries across the there will be a signifi cant enough strike for the provin- inland Island Highway — another wonderful achieve- cial government to send the troops in to put it down ment of the previous NDP government, who finally either, which many regard as the basis which has led to built the inland Island Highway aft er decades of Social the great divisions in British Columbia’s politics histor- Credit promises that went unfulfi lled. Th e extension of ically — the vicious assault, if you will, on the workers the boundaries across the highway takes into account a who were struggling to better their lives. I could wander number of subdivisions and the homes of people who off and talk about the Dunsmuirs and coal for a very long actually work and/or attend Vancouver Island University. time, and I don’t wish to do that. Th at was a signifi cant shift for the constituency, but a very positive one. Interjection. In addition, to try and keep the population within bal- ance and, again, to do the right thing in accordance with L. Krog: Th e member says: “Tell us about the CCF.” Yes, the principle of the act and the Boundaries Commission’s I say with great pride that the predecessor to my party, work, they extended the northern boundary of the con- the CCF, actually enjoyed a strong and long history in stituency immediately to the south over by one street, from the Nanaimo area. Indeed, this will not shock any of the Fourth to Fift h. But all in all, the Boundaries Commission members opposite. Th e fi rst Socialist Party of British has done good work in Nanaimo, and Nanaimo is, I think, Columbia member elected was elected in Nanaimo, I reasonably happy with the proposal as it stands and as is believe, in 1903. Th ere’s a long history of radical politics set out in the fi nal report of the commission. and concern for the welfare and well-being of people in I think it is important to recognize also, however, that this province refl ected in my community. the proposals contained in the report are just that: they When the Boundaries Commission considered its re- are proposals and recommendations. Th ey’re not the port, I’m delighted and pleased that they chose not to fi nal decision. Th e fi nal decision lies with the members change the name. Th ey actually left it simply as Nanaimo. of this assembly. Sometimes people have asked me: “So what do you repre- [1455] sent? Is it Nanaimo-Cowichan? Is it Parksville-Qualicum? Now, the wonderful thing about the whole process is What is it exactly?” I can always say with great pride that that the deliberations of the commission itself were ob- it’s just good old, plain Nanaimo. No adornment. No need viously conducted in private, but the hearings themselves to add a Lantzville to it. No need to add a Ladysmith to were all public, just as the deliberations by the members it or a Gabriola. Nanaimo — the great city of Nanaimo. of this assembly, which will determine whether the rec- One of the sad parts is…. I must say with some re- ommendations as proposed by the Electoral Boundaries gret that when…. I mentioned that I had lost the rural Commission are accepted, will likewise be conducted in areas of Cedar and Gabriola Island. I also lost all of the public, open to public scrutiny, an opportunity for the Snuneymuxw First Nation reserves, both No. 1 and No. 2. citizens of British Columbia to determine whether or not Although obviously many of its members live within the the members they have already elected to this assembly boundaries of my constituency, I don’t actually have any are actually doing the right job on behalf of the people of that land as part of my constituency anymore. I must they represent. say that Chief John Wesley and his newly elected coun- Now, the commission’s work is not entirely perfect. I cil are doing the best they can with the limited resources won’t mention the name of a previous MLA I know who they have to try and improve the lot of their people, and was somewhat unhappy that the old term “Yale” wasn’t I wish them well in that endeavour. left in the description of that historic constituency. Th ese As the members may know, we had a fairly radical turn- things happen from time to time. We have to recognize around in the election of our council in the last municipal that things change. Yale is not quite as signifi cant a popu- election, as did many of the members here in the com- lation as it once was. munities that they represent. Certainly, we have achieved 9748 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

a certain notoriety — not that welcome — for having a I’m proud to represent the constituency of Nanaimo, somewhat divided council. I’m sure, in time, that com- a constituency that has, as part of its history, coal and mon sense and objectivity will prevail, and people will logging, a little bit of mining on the side — precious act in the best interests of the people that they represent. little apart from the coal. But it now, within the bound- Th e commission had a big job, and it was a diffi cult aries of the new constituency as recommended by the job. Legislative constraints were placed on it, as well, in Boundaries Commission, includes Vancouver Island terms of preserving 17 rural seats. Th at may well open University. It includes a fairly signifi cant high-tech sec- up whatever we do here to the constitutional challenge tor that many people simply aren’t aware of. that I talked about, and that is a risk. It includes a magnifi cent although aging hospital, the As someone who was raised in Coombs, B.C., before Nanaimo Regional General Hospital. But I’m sure the it became — I won’t call it a tourist trap; that would be government, as we get closer to another election, may derogatory — certainly, a well-known tourist destination, wish, in its opportune way, to propose, perhaps, some as it is now, I have a great affi nity and sympathy for those funding to build a new and better hospital. I know that who come from rural British Columbia and the people other communities in the province have received them who live there and work. from time to time, although I must say that I would hope [1500] it would be done on the basis of merit and not on the Th ey are the people who, throughout this province’s basis of politics. history, contributed greatly to, as I oft en reference them, I would remind the members opposite that back in the four great initial industries, if you will, of this prov- the ’90s, aft er the vicious campaign of 1991 when we saw ince that are refl ected so beautifully outside this cham- great electoral change in British Columbia, the proposal ber in the dome: agriculture, mining, forestry and fi shing. was that there should be a cancer clinic built at Kelowna Th at’s what a lot of those people did to make their living or Kamloops. Kelowna, of course, elected Liberals, and I and to contribute to the great wealth of this province. think…. Well, and Mr. Serwa, a Socred. I should remind I didn’t make reference to it the other day, but when that we did have what were referred to unkindly as the you talk about the boundaries of constituencies and the seven dwarfs, who survived the ’91 election. Kamloops history of this province, you can’t help but refl ect on that elected two New Democrats. wonderfully amusing work, George Bowering’s history of Th e Harcourt government of the day did what it oft en British Columbia, B.C.: A Swashbuckling History. did, at a signifi cant political price. It chose to put the can- It talks about the many…. I hesitate to call them rob- cer clinic in Kelowna because it was the right thing to do ber barons, but let’s just say they were people who came and therefore paid an electoral price in Kamloops, which to this province with a very much “cut it down, mine it saw that community elect a Liberal and a New Democrat out, fi sh it to death” kind of attitude and made great for- in 1996, not two New Democrats as it had previously. tunes, some of which built some of the most magnifi cent But I digress. I come back to my point about Nanaimo homes in the great city of Vancouver, which the members and the great constituency of Nanaimo and what this there across the way and some members on this side of commission has recommended. Th e commission has the House represent. done the right thing. It has kept Nanaimo whole. It has, at the same time, recognized that it’s important to take Hon. A. Wilkinson: What about Oak Bay? into account those mild variations that occur over time when one has a chance to look at boundary commission A. Weaver: Lovely homes in Oak Bay. recommendations, previous ones, and the practical im- pact of those decisions. L. Krog: And Oak Bay. I see a little city rivalry going on Th e one area which the boundaries commission, a here. I knew the member for Oak Bay might be off ended, couple of times down the road from here, might consid- and so as the member across has rightly reminded me, er is the consideration to bring Gabriola Island, if pos- yes, there are some pretty nice homes in Oak Bay too — sible, back into the Nanaimo constituency. From a strictly again, built by the fortunes of predecessors. geographic accessibility approach, as it exists now and Now, of course, that would remind me that the magnifi - as it’s proposed to continue, the good people of Gabriola cent Craigdarroch Castle was built with the money made Island will have to come into my constituency, to down- from coal in the great city of Nanaimo. It was one of the town Nanaimo, and then fi nd transport, either by way of ultimate symbols of the great wealth that was extracted public transport or car or foot or bicycle or whatever, to from this province. And of course, up the road now, Royal get to a constituency offi ce of their MLA, the member for Roads University, Hatley Castle, the home of the…. I be- Nanaimo–North Cowichan. lieve he was both Premier and Lieutenant-Governor in [1505] his time, if my recollection is correct. Dunsmuir Jr., we’ll Th at is a bit of a problem. I think that’s a fairly rare cir- call him. Th at, again, represented the kind of wealth that cumstance, where in order to get from one constituency came from our initial industries. to another, you’ve got to pass through. Now, I know the Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9749

member from Alberni certainly faced the same problem, terized by large urban centres in the south and relatively where you would have to come through the Parksville- lesser-populated regions in the north. Rep by pop there- Qualicum constituency to get out to Alberni, where he fore ensures that the electoral districts with lower popu- had his offi ce in Alberni. And I think the concept of try- lations are meaningfully represented in this Legislature. ing to maintain two offi ces is not always easy. It ensures that rural districts are not dominated by small- Apart from that refi nement, I would think that the er, densely populated urban districts and have an equal commission has done its work and has done its work voice in parliament. well. So I just want to say, in closing, that I will vote in In a country such as Canada, exceptions are made to favour of the motion and approve the fi nal report of the recognize unique circumstances. One federal riding in Electoral Boundaries Commission. Canada, Nunavut, covers more than two million square I wish to express my thanks to the commissioners for kilometres, but Nunavut has a third fewer voters than the their work. I certainly wish to express my thanks to the average urban riding. Making it larger to include more members opposite, who have been so gracious and kind people is not feasible. I, for one, would not attempt to to me during my remarks, always fi lled with applause go door-knocking in a constituency as large as Nunavut. and goodwill and love and aff ection that’s so oft en absent In a democracy like Canada, we need to make arrange- from this chamber. I can’t…. ments to accommodate remote communities, and this is the case right here in British Columbia. Interjection. Electoral boundaries are established in our province by an independent commission that is out of the hands L. Krog: “My cup runneth over,” the member says. I of the politicians. We want to ensure that electoral rep- always like a little biblical quotation. But I’m reminded resentation is fair and not infl uenced by government. In also…. Isn’t it a line in the Bible that the mills of the gods British Columbia, the Electoral Boundaries Commission grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fi ne? Act requires that a review is conducted aft er every second Th at’s what the commission has done here in arriving at election, and this brings us to our current debate. the recommendations respecting the boundaries of con- [1510] stituencies across this province, but most particularly my In 2014, the government introduced the Electoral constituency. For their work, again, I express my thanks. Boundaries Commission Amendment Act. Th is legislation I express my thanks also to those citizens who took gives the independent commission the ability to adjust the the time to come out and express their interest in and boundaries of all electoral districts while preserving the their comments upon the preliminary report of the existing number in the north and in rural regions. Boundaries Commission and, indeed, made their initial It became clear during the last Boundaries Commission submissions. It is an exercise in democracy that, I think, process that three regions in British Columbia were at refl ects well on the people of British Columbia and, most risk of losing representation in the Legislative Assembly. importantly, refl ects well on the process. We didn’t have a People in the north, Cariboo-Thompson and the lot of people out protesting or complaining, and there has Columbia-Kootenay regions would have lost represen- never been a suggestion that the commission somehow tation if the current act had not been amended. packed a bias or was ill-informed or came to its conclu- Th e intention was to help the commission balance the sions for obscure or unknown political reasons. population between the districts and ensure eff ective rep- Th e fact is this is what a functioning, democratic pro- resentation. Th e bottom line is that we need a fair and cess should look like, where the people are satisfi ed that eff ective representation for all British Columbians, and it has been conducted openly and fairly. Th e results are the act recommends an increase of two electoral districts reasonable, and the people of British Columbia will have from 85 to 87 to better refl ect the increase in populations their opportunity, based on these new boundaries, to in the areas of Surrey-Richmond and New Westminster. choose, hopefully, a new government in 2017. Adopting the commission’s final report will result in changes to 48 of the current electoral districts. I D. Ashton: I rise today to speak to Motion 26, the elec- should interject here that my riding, Penticton, will not toral boundary issue, following the wonderful oration of change as a result of the commission’s recommendations. the member for Nanaimo. I will get to the answer sub- However, substantial changes will be taking place in the stantially quicker than he has. Fraser Valley, Hope, Princeton, the Comox Valley and I will say that at this point in time, the world is always mid–Vancouver Island. changing, and one of the foundations of our democracy An example. In the Comox Valley, Cumberland and is representation by population. Rep by pop, as it’s some- Royston and the southern Comox Valley are included times called, recognizes the geographic realities in prov- as part of the proposed Mid Island–Pacifi c Rim elec- inces like British Columbia. toral district. In terms of seat increases, the commission B.C. is like other jurisdictions in Canada, such as the recommends the addition of two additional districts in western provinces, Quebec and Ontario, that are charac- Richmond and in Surrey. 9750 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

To arrive at the recommendations, the electoral com- All three of those individuals, I think, deserve a huge mission consulted widely with British Columbians and measure of thanks from the 85 members of this House, held 44 public hearings and considered dozens and doz- but from all British Columbians, because the manner in ens of written submissions. I would therefore like to which they discharged their duties and carried on a tre- thank, at this point in time, the commissioners for their mendous volume of work to get us to the stage where we work in helping preserve our democracy here in British are this aft ernoon is not inconsiderable. It’s important Columbia. Th e changes we adopt will be in place for the work, and we have an end product here, an outcome, that next two elections, and the work of the commission will just commends the work that was done. be greatly appreciated for the years to come. Now, I know there were some twists and turns along the Th ank you very much for the opportunity to speak way. Th e last time I spoke to the issue of the Boundaries to this. Commission and electoral boundaries in diff erent parts of the province was, of course, around the debate over R. Fleming: I appreciate the opportunity to make Bill 2. I think that there were a lot of concerns that were some remarks on the motion that is before the House shared by the opposition members primarily — actually, that endorses the work of the Electoral Boundaries exclusively. Concerns that the tradition of having an in- Commission. It’s extensive work that was conducted in dependent commission, which is not that old…. In fact, every region across the province and involved the par- an unfettered, independent commission is only a few ticipation of a number of members of this House. Most decades old in the province of British Columbia. importantly and critically, it’s members of the public There was a general concern that we were moving who followed the work of the commission and attended from an independent commission model that was free meetings and shared their opinions with those three dis- from political intrusion and the unsightly and unfair at- tinguished commissioners who have produced the fi nal tempt…. We see it in other political jurisdictions, where report that was made available to us in September and politicians essentially sit down with other politicians and that will, I understand, be before this House in the very draw up their own boundaries — based not on the con- near future in the form of legislation. cerns of their constituents, but based on their own self- Today, we discuss simply an overview of that work interests. Th e concern was that we were moving from an and what it means for, certainly, the province in the next independent model to one that was semi-independent. general election in 2017, but I think most importantly, Th at was because there were a number of constituen- the process itself. Th ose are the kinds of remarks I want cies that were, if you like, red-circled or grandfathered, to make this aft ernoon. It’s about how the commission’s that had some history in the province of British Columbia, work evolved and just some general observations on what but many of them were absolutely inexplicable. You could we expect to be in the legislation. not delineate between rural…. Although government On that basis, because of the wording of this motion, said it was about protecting rural B.C., there were a num- which affi rms the conclusion and suggests no amend- ber of regional urban hubs included in that. ments to that report, my remarks will be all the more Th e concern was that the real denominator between positive in anticipation that legislation that does reach what these 17 ridings had in common is that well over this chamber in this fall sitting will not alter at all the half — in fact, 11 of the 17 — were held by Liberal in- conclusions of the commission. cumbents. Th ere was no rhyme or reason to which con- I think the most appropriate place to start for me, as stituencies were included. It was not well articulated by other members have done on Hansard in this debate — government, so that became the talking point. What on the record — is to thank all three commissioners who they had in common was that most of them were held were appointed back in May 2014 and put a lot of work by members of the government side. into arriving at a fi nal report that will guide us into the Th ere were also concerns about communities that were next general election. not included in this list, that there was partisanship by Those three individuals are, of course, Mr. Justice omission in terms of communities that were clearly rural, Th omas Melnick, who is on the Supreme Court of British where there were historic concerns about constituents Columbia, who chaired this commission and did an having a reasonable access to their MLA — you know, extraordinary amount of work…. He interacted, from constituencies that are constrained by either island ferry my observation at the meetings that I attended, very well service or the lack of roads between them becoming with members of the public who brought forward their overly large. A number of those were not included in the views, as did Beverley Busson, who is a former commis- instructions that Bill 2 gave to the commission. sioner of the RCMP, who was a member of this commis- I’ll return to some of those concerns around Bill 2 later. sion; and Keith Archer, who not only has a doctorate but I do want to say that we are very fortunate in British serves, of course, as an independent offi cer of this House Columbia that over time and, let’s face it, due to certain as our province’s Chief Electoral Offi cer. outrageous, scandalous events in history, we have arrived [1515] at a more mature, fair process for deciding what electoral Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9751

boundaries look like in British Columbia. members sitting down in a back room and carving out My colleague and, I think, others have already referred their own ridings that seem to have everything to do with to the infamous Gracie’s fi nger, an example of how actual race and socioeconomic status and nothing to do with gerrymandering took place once upon a time in British the natural lay of the land and the constituency to which Columbia. Actually, not in the too-distant past. We’re people geographically adhere to — that’s coming to an talking about 1979 and the scandal that that brought end in states like California. But it exists, massively, even down upon a government that was actually re-elected in the United States still. on a gerrymandered boundary. Th e 2012 congressional elections were yet another re- Th at ensured that going forward…. To my knowledge, minder of how, in this case, the Republican Party was able it’s still the case that, for example, failed candidates of to manipulate many of the key congressional districts to a political party were no longer allowed to chair that their advantage beginning by using, actually, state legis- commission. In fact, the Eckardt commission had been latures, where gerrymandering is perhaps less scrutinized chaired by an ex-politician. Not a successful politician, than at the national level. but it was chaired by somebody who belonged to the In the United States — I think this will come as a governing party. shock to many members of the House and to the public [1520] in Canada because this is a problem that we have large- You don’t see that in British Columbia anymore. To ly solved through our reforms over time — you actually my knowledge, you do not see the ability for elected of- have a multi-billion dollar industry, a political industry fi cials to directly intervene before a fi nal report hits the that does data profi ling and analysis of voting tendencies Queen’s Printer and is introduced to MLAs, as we did in and demographic shift s and supplies information, some- 1978-1979 when the minister who introduced the bill, times in a clandestine manner, to get into the hands of Grace McCarthy…. legislators who actually have the task, the responsibil- I don’t mean to run her down, because she is associat- ity, of creating their own state legislative districts which ed with many distinguished things and reforms in British then set a pattern, of course, for national congressional Columbia, but this was her worst hour. Th ere’s no ques- districts. tion about it, and it spoke to a government culture that Just to give people a sense of how this can be distort- took advantage. It had motive and opportunity. It took ed, we have states where the governing party can lose by advantage of a situation that could be manipulated and up to eight or ten percentage points and have 20 percent abused for partisan purposes. more elected representatives. Th ere are a couple of ex- It was the Gracie’s fi nger episode that changed things, amples where these electoral college changes exist. that stopped the ability for a minister to intervene — in [1525] this case, go to dinner and go to lunch and apply pressure Th e size of the industry, as I mentioned earlier…. I’m on commission employees — to change the boundaries just trying to consult my reference here, which is the New of her own riding. Th is is the genesis of what became York Times, and I trust that people will grant me that that known as Gracie’s fi nger: a neighbourhood in Vancouver is a valuable source around this issue. that had no connection with adjoining established neigh- In the case of an organization called REDMAP, which bourhoods, that took a relatively safe seat and added polls is a Republican state leadership contracted organization, that typically returned the government in 70 to 80 per- we’re talking about big money — tens of millions of dol- cent numbers and included it in that riding. lars. For example, there was a strategy that was unearthed Sometimes the greatest motivator for reform is not, in by a journalist that looked at $30 million in slush fund fact, the positive movement of people who take charge of money that was provided through partisan-affi liated — their democratic institutions. It’s the failure of them to well, they say they’re non-partisan, but they’re partisan- serve the people’s interests that gives a glaring example affi liated — PAC organizations to help a party win fi ve that then sparks the uproar of opinion that leads to re- state legislatures, which would then have an infl uence on forms and changes. those 2012 congressional elections. Thank goodness we are in that place in British Now, as I say, that’s not too far from where we live. Th at’s Columbia where those kinds of egregious interventions a democracy that oft en calls itself the beacon and the mod- that were called out by the leaders of the then opposition el for the rest of the world to emulate. It’s a feature of a New Democrats and the Conservatives that sat in the democracy that neighbours us that we have to be on guard Legislative Assembly — that that example did not go by against infi ltrating jurisdictions like British Columbia. lightly. It ended the culture and the possibility of inter- We have some of the problems that U.S. states have vening. In eff ect, I don’t think gerrymandering is too around big money. We have had no interest from this strong a word for it. Th at’s exactly what it is. government in bringing in campaign finance reform Th at still exists in many parts of the world. Some of legislation, even though a number of other jurisdic- it is changing ever so slowly. In the state of California, tions…. Federal rules under Elections Canada now not too far from here, the spectacle of governing caucus govern contributions and, in fact, ban and outlaw big 9752 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

business and union contributions. It’s about individuals. where politicians don’t sit down in back rooms and en- That’s something that British Columbia’s democracy gage in gerrymandering practices — or at least in far less would absolutely benefi t from. overt and disgraceful conduct than in other democratic We do have to look back at Bill 2 and understand that jurisdictions. you can never be complacent around a boundary com- However, it doesn’t mean that I don’t have any interest- mission process. Th ere will always be an attempt — and ing comments or observations to make. Well, they might I think there was — to introduce political advantage. not be interesting, but I certainly have observations to Even in our independent system, government names make about my own constituency, where I live and where the commissioner and the commission, and under Bill 2, I am very privileged to try and represent, to the best of instructions were given about what seats will be protect- my ability, the people I was elected to represent. ed from population and demographic shift s and which On the south Island, I think one of the key concerns ones will not be. was, obviously, what the map would look like. Th e capital I said earlier that I salute the commission’s work. I regional district does not have the demographic growth think they were given quite a diffi cult job, made more that many regions of British Columbia have. However, it diffi cult by the fact that 17 ridings, more than 20 percent does have, within the region, some areas that are grow- of the constituencies in B.C., were excluded from what is ing quite quickly. called the 25 percent rule. Th at is to say that their popu- I’m thinking in particular of the Western Communities. lation must not deviate plus or minus 25 percent from You look at communities like Langford and Colwood, the average size of a constituency. We look at British which my colleague, the member for Juan de Fuca rep- Columbia — 55,000 constituents on average, 85 con- resents — very fast-growing areas. Other communities, stituencies, adding up to 4.4 million British Columbians represented by colleagues like in Oak Bay–Gordon Head, — and 17 of those ridings were allowed to exceed that 25 are much less so. My own constituency of Victoria–Swan percent deviation rule. Lake is somewhere in between. Now, it’s an important rule. Why? Is 25 percent an arbi- What has happened, though, between the last time the trary number? No, it’s one that has jurisprudence behind Boundaries Commission did its work in 2008 and this it- it. Th is is one that comes out of a number of Supreme eration, is that we have gone from a population that really Court decisions. In order to protect a key demographic couldn’t quite support seven MLAs in the south Island principle, which is that all votes are equal — one citizen, but was what you might call a 6.5-member region, with one vote — you get to a point where if you unduly weight one of the boundaries stretching over the Malahat into the value of somebody’s vote in a very small constitu- the Cowichan Valley area and becoming the other half ency, it essentially cancels out the ability to infl uence or of a riding — very diffi cult to represent for that member the equality rights of a vote cast by somebody in a larger up and down the Malahat with communities that don’t urban riding. have a lot to do with each other on a day-to-day basis. A very diffi cult set of marching orders for the com- That is now a problem, thanks to the modest but mission to try and accommodate all this. I think, given steady population growth, particularly in the Western that there were additionally tasked with having to add Communities, as I mentioned. Th e south Island is now two seats in fast-growing areas of the province, they did almost perfectly, if I may say, a seven-member riding — a remarkably good job of being able to come to the map with about 350- to 360-odd-thousand people living in the that was produced that we are considering and the other south Island dividing quite neatly into a map of roughly set of recommendations here. 53,000 to 55,000 constituents per MLA. You know, the provincial overview that I provided…. In the 2008 draft , there were some concerns that the I’m not going to go into any detail about every single draft that came before this House recommended some- constituency. I think the member for Nanaimo has done thing that was quite a lot diff erent and something that a very thorough job of talking about some of the granu- was not natural to the lay of the land, the geography and lar details of each diff erent constituency and boundaries the way communities have been built up over time. that, admittedly, even by his own account, are ones that In eff ect, what was recommended was that Saanich he has perhaps not even visited. North and the Islands remain substantially the same [1530] but that the Saanich Peninsula be fl ipped sideways in As the respondent for the opposition caucus, I thank its orientation and no longer have a north-south set of him for giving that kind of scrutiny and oversight to the boundaries that were important to communities but be map that was produced by this commission. Because fl ipped over into an east-west orientation — one that of his painstaking detail, I will not need to go into that really doesn’t match the way people’s schools, commun- level. But I do wish to talk about my own region for some ities and neighbourhoods have evolved, let alone the minutes, and my own constituency in particular. I im- municipal boundaries. It was a confusing map, yet for a agine that that pattern will continue. I have said that we time, it looked like it could be the way this region would are very fortunate to live in a parliamentary democracy be divided and its boundaries would be formed. Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9753

In the fi nal analysis, it was rejected. Now, that con- I did hear some of my constituents arguing for bring- cern existed, perhaps, for this commission, because they ing back the name Victoria-Hillside. I think I heard that a would have reviewed the work of the previous commis- lot more in previous years. Sometimes people, including sion. But they never, in fact, looked at that seriously, al- members here in the Legislative Assembly, say privately though I am aware of at least one individual associated to me: “Where the heck is Swan Lake?” I think that is less with the Conservative Party who urged that the east- of a problem today than in the past. west draft that had been put into the dustbin in 2008 be I know there’s not just one Swan Lake in British dredged up again and considered. Columbia. I was recently advised of a Swan Lake near [1535] Vernon, and there may be others. Th ere may be others Because nobody else spoke for it, I think it’s good that in the north part of British Columbia. However, I the commission listened to the public and had a good think people know that this is the Swan Lake of British understanding of how the capital regional district pol- Columbia. Th at is well known and appreciated. itical boundaries work — its school district boundaries, Of course, the commission — to go back and call it for example — and came up with a map that in reality Victoria-Hillside might unnecessarily alienate and ex- doesn’t change very much. clude those of my constituents with a particular Saanich I had the opportunity, upon the invitation, to present identity. Swan Lake is an iconic nature sanctuary in to the Boundaries Commission, and I did so. I actually Saanich now, and with 60 percent of my constituents had very few comments about Victoria–Swan Lake. Th ere residing in Victoria and 40-plus percent in Saanich, it’s are almost no changes in my constituency. But I did think important, I think, to be inclusive. Swan Lake has a sig- it was interesting that on the principle of trying to keep nifi cance in this part of the province and in the name of things simple and trying to have MLAs not cross muni- this constituency, so I think that issue disappeared. cipal boundaries unnecessarily and divide up too many [1540] municipalities between too many representatives…. Somebody is looking it up on their computer now. I In the case of Oak Bay–Gordon Head, which has al- would be happy to…. I’ll just put it out there. Any mem- ways been the entire municipality of Oak Bay and the ber of either party who would like to see Swan Lake, Gordon Head portion of Saanich, now that would in- weather and time permitting, in this legislative session clude a small sliver of east Fairfi eld on the border of Oak — we’ll see if we can get out there and do a little fi eld trip. Bay — the city of Victoria, in other words. Th is introdu- Now, I noted that the Chief Electoral Offi cer — one ces another municipality and, therefore, divides Victoria’s of the commissioners in this process — representing representation in terms of MLAs not between two MLAs, Elections B.C. and representing all of us as an independ- which it has always been historically, but now three. ent offi cer who reports to all elected members, bid for My concern was just simply that the commission didn’t executive support for the Boundaries Commission’s work, need to make those shift s. If they wished to include more put in a proposal and was treated like any other vendor. Saanich constituents in Oak Bay–Gordon Head, they Now, that’s interesting. Having successfully got the work could easily have done so. Victoria has always had two of supporting the commission, he did a great job. MLAs. In fact, at one time, this was a two-member, oddly I think in the annual report, there is a reference to a elected system in some of those Socred years, in the ’70s word that the former Minister of Education liked to use and ’80s. It then became single-member proper ridings a lot: a shared-services model, where effi ciencies were in the 1980s. found that did the work with cost savings and with ex- My constituency was known as Victoria-Hillside in pediency, without any rush to move too quickly. Th e care- the 1986, 1991, 1996, 2001 and 2005 general elections. fulness was intact. Victoria–Beacon Hill, the same. Listen, it’s not a huge Th e Chief Electoral Offi cer is saying to all of us that there distinction, but knowing Victoria quite well, both as a should be a permanence, in fact, to Elections B.C. having former elected councillor and now as an MLA privileged that as part of their mandate. I kind of happen to agree. to represent at least the north half of the city, I did think Electoral organizations. We’ve just been through the commission, interestingly, divided a community like Elections Canada playing a role in managing a federal Fairfi eld-Gonzales in two and between two MLAs, and election, where there was a very happy outcome in terms that wasn’t necessary. of the voter participation. It was able to respond to mil- However, these are not substantive changes. I think lions of more Canadians going to the polls than in the that people residing in greater Victoria will adjust quite previous general election. easily to it. Again, the commission, it must be said, is I think that should clearly be the goal of our election dealing with a jurisdiction that…. Although it has seven organization in British Columbia. I think that recom- MLAs, there are 13 municipalities here. It’s going to be mendation should be taken seriously. I also think we less than neat and tidy with that many mayors and coun- should follow up on his recommendation to automatic- cils and with some municipalities that are incorporated ally register all 18-year-olds in British Columbia so they with as few as 1,000 people. can get to the polls and vote for their interests. 9754 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

D. McRae: I almost lost my place. I was so enraptured same school district boundaries and the electoral district. thinking about the various Swan Lakes around British It makes it really easy for the residents of our community. Columbia. But I quickly pulled myself out of my geo- Proposed changes, though, will see parts of our com- graphic vision here. munity going to a different riding. Right now to my I rise today to speak about the work of the Electoral north there is the riding of North Island, whose member Boundaries Commission. I must say as I stand, I do so is obviously very proud of her constituency, as I know with a confl icted heart. Of course, I respect the independ- she would be. I think their population is about 53,000 ence of the commission and the hard work they had in or 54,000. front of them, but it does have impacts on some ridings more than others. I would argue that Comox Valley, my Interjection. home for my entire life, is being impacted — and in a way that is challenging. D. McRae: It’s 55,000. She knows them all, she says, Th e Comox Valley, for those of you who have been intimately. there…. Like many of us have been to Swan Lake, I think To the south is the riding of Alberni–Pacifi c Rim, with many of us have also been to the Comox Valley over vari- about 42,000 residents as well. ous times. As an electoral district, it has been in exist- Comox Valley has seen signifi cant population change ence since 1991, actually. In 1991, it was represented in the last 15 years. According to census 2001, there were by a woman named Margaret Lord, followed by Evelyn about 55,000 Comox Valley residents, stretching from Gillespie. Members of this chamber will remember work- Fanny Bay in the south to Oyster River in the north. ing with Stan Hagen for almost two terms and then myself. Today we are pushing 65,000, and we are projected to Prior to that it was called the electoral district of grow. We are defi nitely on the higher scale. If we’re using Comox, and it stretched from parts of the Qualicum area the 50,000 to 55,000 population as a sweet spot, we have to, I think, just south of Campbell River. It was before my exceeded that a long time ago. time. It was a larger geographic area, but obviously the I think, since I am speaking about the Comox Valley, population was changed. I’d like to put some of our communities just on record as I think back about population — how it impacts the I do speak, if it’s okay with yourself, hon. Speaker. To the changes in our electoral district and also impacts this far west, we have the islands of Hornby and Denman, two building as well. If I look in this building and look in this unique places by any stretch. Both, geographically, are chamber, there are 85 seats. Unlike many constructed more isolated, because for Hornby it’s a two-ferry ride chambers that follow the British parliamentary model, from Comox Valley. From Denman…. we’ve had to make some allowances for it. People oft en coming to tour the buildings will look down or look Interjection. through the golden gate here, and they will notice that for some reason it wows out as you get down to this end D. McRae: East. My apologies. I’m just so broken up of the chamber. at this stage here. I believe when the building was built, in about 1898, Denman Island as well — again, very artistic com- there were about 30 MLAs representing the province of munities. Hornby has some amazing beaches and some British Columbia. Today with 85, it is getting more and ecosystem, Denman as well. To the south, we have Fanny more diffi cult to actually get us all sitting into desks in the Bay and Ships Point; the historic town of Union Bay, chamber. Anybody who’s got up quickly and not protect- which was known as a coal export port for a long period ed their fi ngers with their neighbour beside them knows of time; Royston, just to the north of that, where they the price one pays. did log exports. Th e reality is the population has continued to grow. Th e village of Cumberland — about 3,000 people living In 1871, the population in British Columbia was about there, a long history in our community with coal min- 36,000 through Census Canada. I think it was a bit racial- ing and now today not just celebrating their past history, ly driven at the time because they didn’t do a great job but they’re going forward as a mountain-biking hub and counting First Nations. a really unique place to raise a family. I say unique in a [1545] totally amazing, good way. It has more sense of commun- Even then, if we add 200,000 to such, today our popu- ity. Th e schools are growing. Th ey’re full of families. It’s lation, where we count all residents of Canada…. We’re just an amazing, vibrant community. now pushing about 4.6 million. It does continue to Th e town of Courtenay is sort of the central hub of the change and, like the province, so does our riding. Comox Valley with 24,000 residents, providing lots of the Comox Valley, though, does have some unique features, services; the town of Comox, which borders the air force which I think will be missed as they potentially make chan- base; to the north, the farming communities of Merville ges. We are one of the few districts that share one regional and Black Creek. As well, I should also make sure we in- district. We have it for the whole Comox Valley, with the clude the community, near Comox, of Lazo. Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9755

Our biggest employer is CFB Comox, which has provid- have access to this chamber. At the same time, we re- ed employment since World War II, with the air force base, spect that the northern parts, the rural parts, of British and has been an absolutely key part of our community. Columbia defi nitely have some unique perspective. We It’s just been a phenomenal place to live, raise a family want to make sure their representation is there and that and, also, to get to represent in this chamber. One of the it is strong. unique opportunities in this chamber is, while the popu- It is, again, with a confl icted heart that I stand. I am lation is large, you can actually travel into most places in proud of the Comox Valley. It has been a great place to the Comox Valley. I’ll use my constituency offi ce as more represent. If it were to go to, as they suggest in the re- of a central place. You can probably reach 90 percent of port…. Th ey were talking about putting Cumberland and the citizens within a 20-minute car ride. If you’re going Royston and Union Bay and Ships Point and Denman to Hornby Island, obviously with ferries and such, it’s a and Hornby into the Port Alberni–Pacifi c Rim riding, bit farther. It is a very distinct geographic area. which again, makes a substantial geographic area for one If I compare it to one of my colleagues’, the member for individual to represent. Th at riding, then, would stretch Peace River North…. For those of you who’ve been there, from Tofi no-Ucluelet on the west coast all the way to it is a very, very large riding. I think he once said it could Hornby Island on the east coast. Th e roads just do not take him up to ten hours to drive from one end of his rid- travel straight. It’s hard to travel in the wintertime in in- ing to the far end — 160,000 square kilometres in that clement weather. It will be a challenge. area. If we’re comparable… I always like good compar- But I know, the electoral representative representing ables as a geography teacher. If we were living in Europe, Comox Valley — or Courtenay-Comox, as the new the same square footage would squeeze into…. You one may be called — would still represent what is truly could squeeze in the countries of Switzerland, Belgium, Comox Valley. I think it is much easier for those resi- Denmark and the Netherlands. dents just to the south to make sure they are listened to Now, there’s a bit more concentration of population in and served. In some ways, they will get two MLAs to those communities and countries, but the reality is, it is work with as they go forward, which would probably be just a massive, massive geographic area. It is also ranging to their benefi t. from fl at prairie in the east to more of a tundra, almost, Comox Valley is a strong place to live. It’s a great place in the north, I guess — a nice way of saying it — just a to live. It will persevere every electoral district change beautiful part of British Columbia. that we have, going forward. I look forward to hearing Again, it all comes back to fi nding that balance. How comments from the members opposite coming up, as do we make sure…? You have an elected representative they speak about their constituencies. who you want to know his or her community, be strong for their community and have an understanding of their S. Chandra Herbert: Well, I rise to speak about the community, but you also want to make sure they’re ac- Electoral Boundaries Commission report and the mo- tually able to visit their community. tion to support it. I don’t think I’ll dip into Swan Lake, [1550] the Magna Carta, the great communities around Comox Again, with something like Peace River North, it’s Valley. I appreciate…. just a massive geographic area to cover for one individ- ual. For some of my colleagues who maybe live down Interjection. in the Lower Mainland in the denser community areas, you could argue that you could ride a bike across certain S. Chandra Herbert: Come visit, indeed. I’ll have to constituencies in maybe ten or 15 minutes. I don’t want visit again. to speak to their ability to ride bikes. But some of them No, I am here today to talk about some things that I are obviously, because of highrises, much smaller than really like about the report, some challenges that I see the ones to the north. that will still be with us long past this debate, and some We constantly look at ways to revise electoral districts. hope that people get better representation and that our When I say “we,” we task individuals who are not part of government functions better. this chamber to go out and talk to citizens across British What is this process? As speakers have noted, this is Columbia. It is a challenge. We want to make sure we al- a process about deciding who gets to sit in this place. low these individuals to do their best. Who gets to sit in this Legislature to defend the interests My understanding is that, potentially, we’ll see another of their constituents, to advocate for change, to come two more members in this chamber, if this Electoral up with solutions to some of the biggest challenges we Boundaries Commission Act is to pass. If you look in have? Th is is a process, an independent process, which this chamber again, we will squeeze two more desks into is designed to try and keep the politics out of it, try and an already tight room. keep the partisan politics out of it, and make it about Again, the population of this province grows. We want representing people fi rst, not representing parties fi rst to make sure we have electoral representative ability to or what have you. 9756 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

It’s a process designed, in a sense, to listen to people although, there are some because of the outrageous chal- about where they think the boundaries for their riding lenges of homelessness that we still see in this province. should be, where they think communities of interest co- Th at’s something to think about. Can you get access incide and where they do not. to your member of the Legislature quickly and in a way It also, we should recognize, attracts the real attention that’s eff ective if you live in a riding that’s 14,000 times of many partisans in terms of where boundaries should the size of my riding? It’s hard, and I give credit to the be and how that might aff ect one party’s vote totals or current member of Stikine for doing it very well. might hurt another party’s vote totals. Th at certainly plays Now let’s think about the population numbers between a part of it and is why it’s so important that Judge Melnick, the two ridings. Vancouver–West End, Coal Harbour, as Beverley Busson and Keith Archer — the three in charge it’s supposed to be, as described in this report, will take of this process — had to work so hard to try and stop the in about 57,000 people. How many people would be political infl uence from taking over, where you might see taken in by Stikine — again, a riding that’s 14,000 times a giant jag of a line disappearing somewhere else to in- the size? Well, that would be about 20,000 people. So in clude a community that voted one way in order to try to a sense, you’re getting 20,000 people to 57,000 people, make it more likely that that seat might go one way. But each having an equal vote in this House. instead, they listened to the neighbours, to the people Th at is a challenge, because, of course, you’ve got to who live in those neighbourhoods — hearing from them balance out representation by population with the abil- on what is the community interest and what makes sense. ity to have access to that person who is supposed to be a [1555] representative. In a riding with 14,000 times the size, that In a process like this, as you try to balance population is really challenging. numbers and you balance growing communities and It is an issue that I think we’re going to have to struggle shrinking communities, that can be really diffi cult. So I with some more in this House. Th at’s one of the most ex- do give them credit, and I thank them for listening to so treme diff erences in this report but not the most. Th ere many people in trying to come up with a strategy to have are ridings that are bigger in terms of population size. I proper representation by the population. But this is the don’t think there’s a riding bigger in terms of land size. challenge, this is the big issue that will remain long past Th ere you have it. this motion, long past this legislation. It’s the question of We’re trying to address that in this report, I see, through what is proper representation by population? the direction of the government — to add more seats. Th e Of course, you know that in B.C. we work on an idea possibility that, rather than a rural area which has few that 25 percent of the population can be above or below people, lots of trees and lots of land mass, lots of roads, the average in the province, which is set around 50,000 lots of mountains, lots of places and challenges to get people. Th at’s the goal. Th at’s the hope — that you come around…. How do you deal with population diff erences into some sort of average so that every vote is equal. Well, without losing that rural representation so that issues are that’s easier said than done, because you also have to con- not just decided in the most populous regions? sider how voices are heard. Th e government suggested up to three seats. I know In a riding like Vancouver–West End, which I call the commission has recommended the addition of two Vancouver–West End, Coal Harbour currently, as I also extra seats to this House. I’m sure if we all asked our currently represent Coal Harbour, I’m connected closely people at home, “What do you think? Do you want an- to a lot of people. Th e challenge in my riding is that a lot other politician?” they’d probably say no. But at the same of people move. We have people coming in and coming time, they probably would say that yes, they want better out. So their connection to the riding, their ability to get representation. to know their MLA and to get to speak up for the com- Th ey want the ability for members to be in commun- munity life of the riding, can be more challenging, as they ities, at events, listening to them directly, because a tweet, may have newly arrived or they may have moved within an e-mail, a letter, a fax or even a phone call oft en doesn’t the riding a few times. So fi nding them, necessarily, or have the same value in terms of understanding an issue having them have the time to fi nd their representative, as a person-to-person discussion, as I learn in my rid- sometimes can be challenging. ing every day. Imagine if you were the riding of Stikine. Stikine is a riding in B.C. that is currently about 14,000 times the size [R. Lee in the chair.] of Vancouver–West End, Coal Harbour — 14,000 times the size of my riding, a riding which I can ride my bike It’s oft en much simpler to learn things from people across in fi ve minutes. It doesn’t take me 15, as the pre- when talking to them where they are, even visiting their vious speaker said it might, but, no, about fi ve minutes. homes, because while this report doesn’t deal with this It’s a fairly small riding. I guess if you go around the sea- issue, it is something, certainly, we as politicians should wall — sure, that can add on some real time. But there think more about. aren’t many people who live in Stanley Park, thankfully; [1600] Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9757

How do we get representation? How do we learn something that is very tough but also could include how things from citizens who do not feel that the traditional we ensure that all members have better support to ensure political structure is working for them, who might be that they are accessible to the public, particularly in big too busy to come to a consultation we host in an evening ridings. It’s not just regional size. Also, language ability because they work at night or because they have kids, or can sometimes be a challenge, and the other issues that who might not have the time to go to a council meeting I mentioned earlier. on a Tuesday aft ernoon because they work nine to fi ve? What does this report do to Vancouver–West End? Th ere are real challenges with accessibility for the pub- Well, let’s think about this. Many, many years ago lic, not just in terms of access but also responsiveness of Vancouver–West End was housed in one riding known their government — to see that changes can be made, as Vancouver. It was a Vancouver riding to represent the that they are governing for them, working with them, people of Vancouver. It did many remarkable things, the listening to them. riding of Vancouver. It elected the fi rst woman to this Th ere are real challenges with having 85 or 87 mem- Legislature back in, I believe, the ’20s, maybe earlier. bers elected to represent everyone in the province when, Th at was certainly a huge change and one that…. We’re as we know, the popular vote isn’t oft en refl ected in the still working hard to try and get us to actual population total number of seats in this House — who gets elected, numbers in this House so that women are actually here who wins the majority. in the numbers that they are in the population. Th ere we Even the very structure of this government doesn’t al- go. It’s slow, oft en far too slow, because there are those ways work so well for getting the best solutions. I know who drag their heels, but things are changing. it’s an old structure that goes back hundreds, hundreds The Vancouver riding then, eventually, became and hundreds of years: Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition Vancouver Centre. It was a riding that elected Emery and the government. But you know what, hon. Speaker? Barnes, Gary Lauk and others to this place, a riding I think people would ask the question: why in a city, in a which was a dual-member riding at the time. As the province, in a country do we operate in such a way that Chair will know, , of course, was the fi rst if you get 43 percent of the vote, maybe 44 percent of the African-Canadian man to be elected to a legislature and vote, and the other folks get 40 percent of the vote, you, to be the fi rst Speaker of our House. Another incredible because of those extra 4 percent, get to rule as if you have activist, he made many changes, as did many of the other 100 percent of the support? members who have served the area over time. Th at is a challenge that’s not addressed in the report, Th en we shift ed and moved from a two-member rid- and it certainly wasn’t the direction the commission had ing into what became known as Vancouver-Burrard. Now, to consider. But it is something I think we need to ask this is where it gets confusing. Vancouver-Burrard also ourselves. existed as a two-member riding prior to that but in a dif- Personally, in my own constituency, in the last elec- ferent area. So people think Vancouver-Burrard, which tion in Vancouver–West End, the folks that voted…. I’ve was ably served by and Emery Barnes, got to mention that not everybody votes. When we talk was the same riding that Rosemary Brown represented. about vote percentages, we oft en forget about the people Alas, it was not so. who don’t vote. Fift y-seven percent of the public felt that [1605] I should be their representative — of those who voted. Ridings change. Names change. It gets confusing. But I work hard to try to represent everybody, includ- Anyway, we moved forward from Vancouver-Burrard, ing those that didn’t vote, didn’t feel there needed to be which served the area, with slight changes over time, up a reason for them to vote but still like to complain about to 2008. I was elected under those riding boundaries, the government. which included the whole downtown peninsula. So that It’s challenging, but I think something we all need was Vancouver-Burrard — all of downtown Vancouver. to do more of is trying to listen and work with a wider In 2009, we shifted. We changed. We became range of the public, whether they be Liberals, Green, New Vancouver–West End. Now, the commission didn’t call Democrats, Conservatives, independents, no comments. it Vancouver–West End, Coal Harbour — maybe because Th at’s where we get true value, truly good ideas. It’s not half of Coal Harbour was chopped off at Jervis Street. just the yes party and the no party. Sometimes there’s an Jervis was chopped down the middle of Coal Harbour: idea in between. Sometimes there’s a tough topic nobody one side, Vancouver–West End, the other to Vancouver– wants to talk about. We as legislators have a duty to try False Creek. and bring those debates here and actually discuss them Th e decision had been made by the time I was the even if they’re challenging. member for Vancouver-Burrard running in Vancouver– Let me get back to the report. Th e commissioners rec- West End, 2009 and 2013. Now, this riding is changing ommended that MLAs assess the increasing discrepan- again. Th ey want it to become Vancouver–West End — cies in representation by population. I think we need to same name, so it won’t be changing from Vancouver to do that. I’m not sure that the House is willing to. It is Vancouver-Center to Vancouver-Burrard to Vancouver– 9758 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

West End. It will stay the same. Th e only real diff erence, planes. But they’re also about socializing — fi nding a way though, is they are going to reunite the community of to connect the community. Coal Harbour. On this one, I’m very happy that they’re Th at’s how I end up working with them a lot — wheth- doing that. er through their events, getting to know neighbours or I’ve represented Coal Harbour, as I mentioned earli- otherwise — and that’s why they, I believe, felt the need to er, when it was known as Vancouver-Burrard. Currently speak out and connected to the commission to say their I represent half of Coal Harbour, but in eff ect, I end up neighbourhood should be united under one MLA. While working to represent the entire neighbourhood of Coal I might argue they can get two for one, twice the power — Harbour because they come to me. They say: “Well, if they’re split between two MLAs, they can get two fi ght- you’re that guy who represents downtown, West End, ing for them — apparently they said no. Th ey wanted one Coal Harbour, right?” I say yes. MLA, and they would like to be reunited as a commun- Well, if they’re on a certain postal code, they might be ity in Vancouver–West End. I think that’s a good thing. in Coal Harbour for Vancouver–False Creek and have to I want to thank Neil Chahal, Anthonia Ogundele — go fi nd the member for Vancouver–False Creek. If they’re who are their co-chairs — Chris Adolph, Rochelle Bruce, across the street, I’m their representative. So it doesn’t Michael Dobbin, Loretta Sieben, Angel Uzunov and make much sense for me to tell somebody who has come Barbara Welsh, who are all on their board of directors to me — says they live in Coal Harbour and surely I’m at the Coal Harbour Residents Association. Certainly, their MLA and they’re my constituent — for me to say: for those who don’t know of them, I’d encourage you to “Well, what postal code? Oh, no, you’re across the street. check them out. Th ey represent the rentals, the co-ops, Sorry, you’re in the wrong offi ce. Leave.” the 40 condos in that neighbourhood and, of course, the It makes much more sense to say: “You want to en- Performing Arts Lodge, and I think they do it very ably. gage in your democracy? You’re interested in how to fi x I want to thank them for the advice to me, thank them things? You’ve got an idea, you’ve got a complaint, or for the advice to the commission for recommending that you’ve got a concern? Well, sure. I’m a representative. Coal Harbour be reunited in one riding, to be known as While I may not currently represent you — your MLA is Vancouver–West End. across the way — let us know how we can help.” And we [1610] do. My staff work very hard to do that. I say Vancouver–West End, Coal Harbour because, of So it will provide a good, seamless, one-stop shop for course, Coal Harbour is just as much a part of the neigh- a constituent in Coal Harbour. Th ey’ll know who their bourhood as the West End. Of course, it’s much younger, MLA is. It will be easy to fi nd them and, hopefully, get but that certainly doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a lot to of- them a better response — because in the end, I’ve been fer and that its members, its residents, don’t have a lot to told: “You’re the Coal Harbour guy so we come to you, off er us and to tell us. regardless.” Th e West End. We’d been told in the last round that Well, this is also a good thing because this is a change the West End should be, in a sense, cut in half too. Th ey Coal Harbour residents actually requested themselves. were recommending last round that we cut Davie Street It’s not just me saying it’s a good idea that Coal Harbour in half so that part goes to False Creek, part stays in the be united in one boundary, one riding. It’s actually the West End. People spoke out and said: “No way. Th e issues Coal Harbour Residents Association. that unite us are much more than divide us. Th e West Just if I may, for a moment, I do want to acknowledge End should stay strong together.” Th ey lament that they them. Th e Coal Harbour Residents Association is an ex- lost sections of Granville Street and other areas which citing organization. Th ey’re working to unite neighbours — in the cultural record, at least — would be known as in our community in a way that, from outside, many West End, but not according to city planning documents. people don’t think exists. But there is a real community We are the West End right at Burrard, and under this in Coal Harbour. proposed change, should it go through, the riding will While it has been maligned as Cold Harbour, folks be everything on one side of Burrard — everything. You there will show you and demonstrate every day that could say that north of Burrard is Vancouver–West End it’s got a warm heart with great residents organizations under this change, including all of Coal Harbour, includ- working to help crack down on whether it be crime in ing Stanley Park and the West End. the neighbourhood, whether it be making sure that our Of course, democracy is not just the riding boundaries. streets are safer so that you can walk, you can ride your It is not just who you elect. Th e vote isn’t the be-all and bike, you can be safe and not have to worry about traffi c end-all, as we know. I think sometimes in this House we streaming through. forget that yes, our work is very important, but just as Th ey’re also, of course, very concerned with things: important is the work that goes on in our communities neighbourhood livability and pollution issues — pol- to get us to understand the changes that need to be made. lution into the ocean, air pollution, noise pollution. Of Changes that I hear about from Gordon Neighbourhood course, many will know about their fi ght around the fl oat House, which works hard to address issues of food secur- Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9759

ity, of wellness, of community. Th ey raise these issues We should look at that. We really should. Again, if we with me, and thankfully, we’re close by. We’re able to act want to talk about a crisis in democracy, how is it that our on issues like that. current provincial government rules with 100 percent of Th e West End Seniors Network, of course, raises issues the majority with 44 percent of the vote? But if you in- for residents, the seniors in the community, about hous- cluded those that didn’t, it’d be a much smaller percent- ing insecurity; about challenges with health care; about age. Maybe 24 or 25 percent of the total number of people ensuring that people have the ability to age in place, that who could vote might have voted for the current govern- they’re safe, that they feel welcomed into the community. ment. I don’t think that is something that we should be Organizations like the community policing centre, proud of. It’s something that really does need a fi x. which of course work very hard to make sure people [1615] feel safe, are safe and that our neighbourhood is looked Other areas, of course, which I think would help im- aft er as well. West End cleanup groups that look aft er the prove the democratic process and which I would have tidiness and the cleanliness of our neighbourhood. Th e thought would be important, just as much as we value Ecology Society. the boundaries of who gets to vote for what and which I could go on and on and on about those civil soci- party and which MLA, would be to ensure that those ety actors, those who work each and every day in the who pay for the campaigns to convince you to vote for neighbourhood to better things. Groups that may have the people that represent a certain riding should also be a name one day, like the West End Residents Association. democratized. It no longer exists, but it was just a group of neighbours No, I don’t think it’s democracy when you have one ac- who pulled together and said: “We want to make some tor who can pay unlimited amounts of money — say, a change.” West End Neighbours, another group. Again, corporation — to a governing party, to say: “Here, we’re residents coming together to call for change here, there giving this to you, because we think you vote this way.” and the other way. Well, you have, let’s say, a grandmother who is on a fi xed Th at’s why designing boundaries for elections is im- income and would like to support her party, her ideas. portant. They are about communities of importance, She can donate $10. Th at corporation can donate $10 but again, it’s why they’re not the only thing. Without million. Th at, to me, is not equal voice. Th at’s not equal those community organizations, without the West End vote. Th at’s not equal power. Th at’s corporate power, and Community Centre, without the parent advisory com- that to me is not democracy. Th at’s not what I think we mittees in our schools and elsewhere, we wouldn’t get should be continuing to support in B.C. and why I con- good advice for the citizens as MLAs, as representatives, tinue to call for a ban on corporate and union donations. as ministers. We wouldn’t be able to do our job very well. I think the big money should not be buying politics. It Th ere are a few things that I wish were in the report but should be ideas winning the day. It should be hard work. that I know have been in previous reports from Elections It should be people putting their ideas, their time and, yes, B.C. Certainly, I can understand why commissioners did some money, but not so much that you can swamp every- not touch these subjects, as they weren’t instructed to. body else. Small donations to make change, to create Issues around the franchise, about how we ensure democracy. Otherwise, you get a system that people real- people do get the right to vote, have their right to vote ly wonder how much is being bought and paid for and and are able to use it. I know that in Australia, they’ve how much is just because people want to do something. said: “We need mandatory voting.” If you pay taxes, if Th at creates cynicism. Th at’s not valuable. Th at’s not you’re involved in your community, if you do anything helpful. Th at’s not useful. Cynicism drives people away in your communities, chances are you’re going to come and stops them from being involved in their commun- across your government. So their thinking was — since ities. the ’20s, I believe — that you need to vote. While I support this report and while I think the Now, you can write “none of the above,” if you don’t boundaries are good with what they were given, what like any of the candidates. You can spoil your ballot. But they were able to do, I do think that we’ve got some real you’ve got to vote. You’ve got to participate in the life of democratic problems and real democratic defi cits that your community in that way. exist in B.C. that make all the hard work and all the fi nd- I think that’s something that needs to be investigated ings and all the representations to the committee that in B.C. and that really does need to be looked at. Again, much more diffi cult to carry out. voting rates have not been where they used to be. Fewer I think most people that probably participated in this people vote than they did 40 years ago, 50 years ago. process did so because of the good of democracy. Th ey Th ere’s a variety of reasons for that. But I think we’ve got wanted to make sure their democracy better refl ected to look at it and say: “We pay taxes; you have to pay taxes.” their communities, that it gave them a better ability to At least, with the new government in Ottawa…. Maybe make change. you have to fi ll out the long-form census again, and I Well, they did that in terms of boundaries. But we’ve think that’s a good thing, because we need that data too. not got there yet in terms of what else is important when 9760 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015 you talk about voice and representation, which is eco- worked with many people to try and help them get in nomic barriers and economic boundaries. there to vote. But if you don’t know where your next meal If you can make a $1 million donation, I think you is, or you don’t know if you’re safe overnight, it’s going to might get listened to by a cabinet minister on that side be pretty diffi cult to say that voting is your most import- more so than the grandmother who can donate $10. ant priority right now. You know what I’m told when I Maybe not. It may be cynical. I hope it would not be the ask people: “Well, are electoral boundaries, voting and case, but I’m not that naive. I may be young, but I’m not these kinds of things important?” Th ey’ll say: “Th ey are, that naive. but getting a meal is more important to me right now, Th at would be the next step. Let’s make campaign fi - and fi nding a place to get out of the rain.” nance reform. Tick the box. We can get there. Let’s look Th is report does many things. It creates new electoral at mandatory voting. Let’s look at making it so that young boundaries or suggests where they should be. It suggests people, people 16 and above, can vote. I know it’s contro- names. It suggests where communities can or cannot be versial amongst some, saying: “Oh boy, how would they included in diff erent ridings. But some of the fundamen- ever know who they were going to vote for?” tal challenges of our democracy are not addressed, nor I met people in this last federal election campaign who were they expected to be addressed in this report. I just would stopped me on the street, and they’d say: “Don’t don’t see them being addressed by this government. So I worry. You’re going to get elected. I’m voting for you.” I felt this was an appropriate time to raise them. said: “Well, I’m not running for a Member of Parliament.” I thank the commission for their work. I thank the “Oh. Oh well, jeez. I don’t know then.” And then I met an- Coal Harbour Residents Association for advocating to in- other person. “I’m voting for the previous Prime Minister, clude Coal Harbour in Vancouver–West End. Of course, Stephen Harper.” I said: “Well, why?” “Well, because he I’ll continue to work hard to represent the whole riding likes cats.” Th at was the answer they gave me. “He likes cats.” of Vancouver–West End and Coal Harbour, regardless of I probed a little bit further. if I should run in the next election or not. But we’ve got to do better for our democracy. People An Hon. Member: What’s wrong with cats? are passionate about it. Th ey care very deeply about how we’re governed. We need to rise to the occasion, to give S. Chandra Herbert: Well, I said that I like cats too. them a reason to vote, to show why it’s important to be Maybe we should get every Prime Minister, every can- involved and to show them that they can be proud of didate to be seen holding a cat, and then you can get their government and of the society that we create — that their vote. unites all of us rather than divides us and ignores the half If that’s the kind of analysis which sometimes leads to that doesn’t happen to win on that particular set of days. decision-making, and it is, I don’t think giving 16-year- It’s been an honour to speak to this bill, and I will fi n- olds the right to vote is going to be a big problem. I’ve ish at this time. met many passionate 16-year-olds who have incred- ible knowledge, who have incredible values, who think D. Bing: I’m happy to rise today to speak on Motion about things, debate things, challenge me, challenge each 26. On behalf of my constituents of Maple Ridge–Pitt other and put a lot more thought into who they’re going Meadows, I’m proud to say that our government has to vote for, if they could vote, than if the person might introduced legislation to adopt all of the Electoral like a cat. So another thing to consider as we go through Boundaries Commission’s recommendations. this process. Th is government continues to ensure that all British Well, what else? How else do we ensure people can Columbians are eff ectively represented in both urban vote? If we’re not doing mandatory voting, how do we and rural areas of this province. Although I represent ensure people get out to vote? For some of us, that’s fairly an urban riding, it is important that the more remote easy. We do it all the time. We do it anyways. We go and northern and rural areas are represented appropriately. we vote. It’s become a cultural thing. Our parents did it; Although urban ridings tend to have a larger population our grandparents did it. You just do it. For others, maybe to represent than rural ridings, it’s generally a lot easier to they’ve come from a place where you weren’t allowed to represent and serve constituents because of the concen- vote, where people knew how you voted and made deci- trated population and smaller geographic area. For my sions. Again, that can be a challenge. colleagues in the House that represent rural areas, it takes [1620] a greater eff ort to reach all their constituents. If English isn’t your fi rst language, it’s even more of a Th at is why, during the last Boundaries Commission challenge to try and work your way through the system, process, the three regions in B.C. that have the greatest to get your voting card, to know where you vote, to do all number of large, sparsely populated electoral districts those kinds of things. It can be really diffi cult. were also the most at risk of losing representation in If you’re homeless, if you’re on the street in B.C. to- the Legislative Assembly. We want to make sure that the day, it can be very challenging to vote. I understand. I’ve current districts in the north, the Cariboo-Th ompson Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9761

and the Columbia-Kootenay regions are preserved, so C. Trevena: It gives me great pleasure to stand here that they can continue to be eff ectively represented by and take my place in the debate on the motion that was their MLAs. moved last week that “the proposals contained in the To do this, we introduced the Electoral Boundaries Final Report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission Commission Amendment Act in 2014, to give the in- tabled in the Legislative Assembly on September 28, 2015 dependent commission the ability to adjust the bound- be approved.” aries of all electoral districts, while preserving the As I say, I am happy to stand here and take my place, number of electoral districts in the northern and rural and we do have people in the gallery today. I rarely refer regions. Th e intention was to help the commission bal- to people in the gallery, but what people are seeing…. ance population between districts and ensure eff ective Really, this is part of democracy in action. Not only do representation. Th at is why the act has always permitted we actually debate legislation, but this is a very import- commissions to go beyond the 25 percent population ant discussion about the future makeup of our electoral deviation rule in special circumstances. map in British Columbia. Some departures from equal representation by popu- I think many people may be aware, all those listen- lation may be necessary to achieve eff ective representa- ing to my colleague from Vancouver–West End…. A lot tion for all British Columbians. Every province grapples of people are not aware of what happened in this House with how best to manage the urban-rural divide, given earlier this spring, when legislation was tabled about population density and disparity. Most provinces, espe- changing the map of B.C. We on this side of the House cially the larger ones, have rules for exceptional circum- had great concerns, and I spoke at that time. I used my stances, including how best to accommodate rural areas. allotted time to talk about my concerns about that. I’m In B.C., we have the 25 percent population devi- going to refer to some of those concerns again today. ation rule. Following the last Electoral Boundaries Th at being said, we do have the fi nal report in front of Commission eight years ago, there were ten districts that us. I think everybody is cognizant of the hard work that went into it, going out and hearing from people around were outside that threshold. So this is not a new situation the province, taking in submissions around the province for B.C. In most cases, the population changes in these by the electoral commissioners. districts are not very large. Th is review of our electoral map happens aft er every On the other side, for the districts that represent a lar- other election. You look at the distribution of seats, look ger population, there are no proposed districts that come at the population and whether it truly refl ects the way close to the plus-25-percent threshold. Under the com- that B.C. is evolving. Some of my colleagues have talked mission’s proposals, no new district would be more than about the rural and urban divide. I wouldn’t say it’s a div- 18 percent above the average. Compare this to the previ- ide, but I’d say it’s the reality of our province. ous commission, where there were several districts more We have large rural constituencies, very few people liv- than 20 percent above the average. ing in them, and then the very compact, very dense, urban [1625] areas. Just have a look at the Lower Mainland, whether As we’ve heard, we are proposing to increase the num- it’s Vancouver itself, whether it’s greater Vancouver over ber of electoral districts by two, up to 87 from the 85 seats down to Surrey. Th ey’re very dense, urban areas. Trying that we currently have. Th ese new ridings will refl ect to get that balance, to juggle the pieces to make sure that the growing population in Surrey, Richmond and New it truly refl ects, really, the nature of the province is a very, Westminster. Overall, there will be boundary changes to very hard job to do. I join my colleagues on both sides of 48 districts throughout the province. Substantial changes the House who have talked about and thanked the com- will be in the Fraser Valley, Hope-Princeton, Comox and missioners for their hard work. the mid–Vancouver Island regions. Th e changes will be I’d just like to refer a little bit to their mandate, which in place for the scheduled 2017 and 2021 elections. My they refer to, themselves, in their report, the fi nal report own riding of Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows will remain that came out in September. Th eir mandate was look- the same. ing at: “Th e principle of representation by population be Th e commission undertook a public consultation in achieved, recognizing the imperatives imposed by geo- March through May of this year and considered the many graphical and demographic realities, the legacy of our comments gathered. It is not an easy task to balance history and the need to balance the community interests democratic representation with geography in our prov- of the people in British Columbia.” ince. Our government respects the commission’s propos- To achieve that principle, the commission be permit- als and the independent, non-partisan work they carry ted to deviate from the provincial electoral quotient by no out. We accept all their recommendations. more than plus or minus 25 percent, and that they may I want to thank the commission members for their propose electoral districts with population deviations ex- hard work to ensure that all British Columbians are ef- ceeding that where there are very special circumstances. fectively represented in this House. We do have representation by population. We talk very 9762 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

oft en about changing the electoral system, looking at pro- work on. It eff ectively ring-fenced a number of ridings portional representation where you tend to have more in the interior. Th ere were 17 rural ridings which could balance, that you have numbers of voters to numbers not be changed. elected. But we do have representation by population at Th ey were defi ned as three diff erent regions, and in the moment, which means that people can identify with those regions there were a number of ridings. We have their local representative. Even in a large rural area, you the Cariboo-Th ompson region. Th e electoral districts are the representative for that area. within those had to be kept pretty much as a district, al- [1630] though there was some latitude to shift around, as did When you start looking at proportional representation, happen with one or two communities. We had a refer- it does shift . You are oft entimes looking at a list of candi- ence earlier on to Hope moving from Chilliwack-Hope. dates from a specifi c political party and choosing by the Th e suggestion here is that it move back to the Fraser- party or choosing names on a party list, rather than look- Nicola area. ing at who is going to be the best person to represent you. We have the Cariboo-Thompson region, which in- I’d just like to refl ect a moment. We’ve just come out of cludes Cariboo North, Cariboo-Chilcotin, Fraser-Nicola, a federal election, and there is a real concern that people Kamloops–North Thompson and Kamloops–South still don’t quite understand the way our system works, Th ompson. Th ose were inviolate. You can change within how parliamentary democracy works, rather than a those boundaries, but you couldn’t compress those. You presidential process like we see south of the border. Many couldn’t make Kamloops one riding, for instance. You times I’d hear people, when I was out campaigning in the had to keep those. federal election on weekends, saying that they wanted a Again, in the Columbia-Kootenay region, it kept certain leader — this person for Prime Minister. Columbia River–Revelstoke — my colleague has very It’s always necessary, I think, to remind people they’re ably represented that for a number of years; Kootenay not talking about who is going to be the Prime Minister, East, which at the moment is held by the Minister for nor are you going to talk about who is going to be the Energy and Mines; Kootenay West, very ably held by my Premier. You’re talking, in our system, about who is go- colleague from Kootenay West, obviously; and Nelson- ing to be representing you in your constituency or your Creston. Th ese, again, although there could be changes riding. Th at is very much representation by population. within those boundaries, were held fi rm. It gives a person the ability not just to look at the party or Th e fi nal area where the commission was bound was that approach but to actually look at that person who is the north. Here, again, very large constituencies, oft en- going to best represent them, best take their concerns on. times with very few people. Going in reverse order, Th is is something that the commissioners were look- we have Stikine; Skeena; the two Prince George rid- ing at when they were looking at how to have eff ective ings, Prince George–Valemount and Prince George– representation. As I say, it is extremely, extremely chal- Mackenzie; the two Peace River ridings, Peace River lenging when you’re looking at British Columbia. I, for South and Peace River North; North Coast; and Nechako instance, represent a riding — I’ll talk a little bit more Lakes. All, again, inviolate. Th ey had to be kept as they about my riding in a moment — which is the fi ft h-largest were for the commissioners’ consideration. in the province. It’s got 45,000 square kilometres, a very [1635] large rural riding, and at times, it’s very diffi cult to ensure I think that, while we do have representation by popu- that I can go to all the diff erent communities. lation, this was an artifi cial construct. I think if the com- My colleague just north of me, who represents the missioners had had a freer hand, it would have given North Coast, has an extraordinarily large riding — again, them more opportunity to look at how best to shape very diffi cult to access, one of the biggest ridings. We look these constituencies without having to say: “Th is swath at the ridings of Stikine, of Peace River North — large in the centre to the north of B.C. couldn’t be changed.” I land-base ridings again, that much easier to access. But do think that really did make it that much more diffi cult all of these ridings on the north coast and in the interior for the commission to work. have small populations. Th e other thing that the commission had to weigh How can those people be well represented? If you up was the deviation, the plus or minus 25 percent. As I looked at changing the boundaries to make the popula- mentioned, we have these vast areas with very few people tion around the 52,000 mark in all these ridings, you’d and some very densely populated areas — how to get be talking about, really, the whole of the interior of B.C. that balance. and out to Haida Gwaii. It would be quite an extraordin- I’d just like to refer, for a moment, again…. For in- ary geographical problem, and these are the things that stance, my riding. Th e member for Comox Valley spoke the commission had to address. a few moments ago, and his riding abuts my riding. His Th at being said, I believe they did have their hands riding, at the moment, despite having rural compon- tied because there was legislation which was tabled in ents to it, has quite a dense population. It has got 74,000 this House and approved, and that was what they had to people, whereas my riding is a much vaster area. Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9763

Actually, my riding is just above the norm. It’s 2 percent River and part of Courtenay — just a small part of above the norm. It has 54,000 people in it. My riding, as a Courtenay. Th e rest of Courtenay and Cumberland and rural riding, is actually within the norm. But how to get the islands are actually part of a greater riding that does that balance — I think that this is one of the areas that go over as far as Ucluelet and Tofi no. It goes out to the the commissioners were able to approach, really, with fi - west coast as well as to the east coast. nesse. It was very diffi cult. We already have that general shape federally. In that Th e member for Comox Valley talked about the fact sense, you can understand the commissioners’ thinking, that it seems an unnatural split. He has represented it as perhaps. Still, I do understand and feel for the people, being the Comox Valley in some form or other for many particularly in Cumberland, who see themselves as years. A while ago, it did actually go up to Campbell River. Cumberland, Comox and Courtenay. At the moment and for the past, I should say, more than To be honest, when I did present to the commission ten years, possibly 15 years, the Oyster River has been and mentioned that I was very pleased that my own con- the boundary for the North Island and Comox Valley stituency didn’t change…. It did change the last time. Th e constituencies. last time it grew considerably by taking in a swath of land Th e member for the Comox Valley is concerned that on the mainland. Now my constituency even…. My con- the new shape that the Comox Valley will have would be stituency — we all own our constituencies. unnatural, that it’s much more natural to have the whole Th e constituency I have the true honour to represent valley. But that is a hugely dense population, even though, and the privilege to represent goes actually, if you look on as I say, you’ve got a rural nature to it. a map, up as far as Tweedsmuir Park. So as well as having So the commissioners came up with, “Let’s keep some of Strathcona Park, on the Island, I actually have, in Comox and Courtenay as an entity and move the rest” the North Island constituency, some of Tweedsmuir Park. into what is at the moment Alberni–Pacifi c Rim, I believe It’s vast, mountainous and almost empty. is the name of the riding. So shift things around, increase Th ere are people, obviously, who live in the inlets, First the population in Alberni–Pacifi c Rim, which is simi- Nations. Th e constituency of North Island goes up to lar to my riding — it’s sparsely populated and scattered Kingcome Inlet to, basically, Cape Caution on the central across a number of communities, with a couple of anchor coast. Th at was an expansion that happened at the last communities; Port Alberni is one of the anchor commun- round, so back for the 2009 election. It grew consider- ities — and then have Comox and Courtenay as an entity. ably, and as I say, I’m very pleased to be representing that. This is, obviously, a difficult decision. I’ve got to But it’s a diffi cult one to represent because it is very large, say that I did speak at the hearing with the Electoral and that was recognized when I presented to the com- Boundaries Commission to talk about this because I mission to talk about the feelings that I’ve heard from knew from talking to people in the Comox Valley that people in the Comox Valley and the feelings of people in there was a lot of concern. Cumberland who talked to me about how they wanted People, particularly in Cumberland, feel that they are to stay as they were. going to be cut off from what are their natural partners. One of the commissioners mentioned to me that they They see themselves as Cumberland, Courtenay and saw my riding and were impressed by its size and decided Comox. Th ey see it as a whole. Th ey see that they are the that it really was best left as it is, because of the ability to main centre for the smaller communities of Union Bay, of represent people well. Th at’s one of the things that has to Royston and of the island communities of Denman and be taken into consideration when you are looking at how Hornby. Th at being said, having 74,000 people in that rid- ridings are developed or how constituencies are developed. ing…. It’s a very, very large riding and, when you also have My constituency goes…. It’s 45,000 square kilometres. the rural sense of it, it is, I would say, an unbalanced one. As I say, a large part of that is on the mainland, in to the Th e other thing, though, to look at politically for these central coast, and it’s mountains and not inhabited — but, communities in particular is that — again referring to the within the constituency itself, accessible. federal election — these communities had their riding On the Island, I go from south of Campbell River boundaries changed in the federal election, too, which to Port Hardy. Th ere are communities along the way. makes it, I think, a little bit more diffi cult. People feel: Obviously, there are the rural communities south of “Th is is my area. Th is is what I know. Th is is what I relate Campbell River. Th ere’s the city of Campbell River, which to.” Th ey’ve already been challenged once. Th ey saw their is the anchor community. To the west, I go to Gold River, constituencies change federally, and they would prefer to out to Tahsis — including Tsaxana, the First Nations be able to keep the same constituents provincially. community out near Gold River. Beyond that there is [1640] Esperanza out on the west coast. Th ere’s Nootka Island Th at being said, what has been recommended by the on the west coast. commission is somewhat similar to the federal design. I mean, it’s absolutely beautiful. Th is is a place where Th e federal design that we are now operating under has people come for vacations. People come to fi nd their Comox going to the North Island, along with Powell souls. It is the most extraordinary place to represent. 9764 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

It’s also the most extraordinary place to represent be- here on the opposition side at the moment and bringing cause of the mix of people, of industry. It’s like a micro- forward concerns of our constituents, or working with cosm of British Columbia, I have to say, for some of the government members, whether it’s in committee or just challenges we face, some of the good stories that come in general discussion. I mean, we also have the legisla- out of it and some of the hard stories that come out of tive job of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, of standing up it. Forestry and mining are anchors. We have fi shing and and both holding the government to account and hold- aquaculture on the coast. It’s a fascinating constituency, up ing options and diff erent ideas and trying to ensure that to the north end of the Island, to Port Hardy and beyond. those ideas are well heard. I have the islands, really, all the way up through the Although the member did talk about, in fact, “Oh, we’ll north part of Georgia Strait, up through Johnstone Strait have two representatives,” I think that there’s a sense that and north to, again, where many people go on their va- we could have one government representative there and cations, up to the Broughton Archipelago and then up to not to worry. It does refl ect badly, particularly for a per- the coast. Getting to the far west of the constituency is a son who was a history teacher. It does refl ect a little badly drive along a paved road for a couple of hours. Th en it’s a on what the role of all private members is and what the couple of hours’ drive along an active logging road where role of all of us as MLAs is. there are, as I’ve mentioned many times in this House, Th e change to the Comox Valley was actually described four communities. Th e active logging road needs to be in the report by the commissioners as they described a kept in much better condition than it is being kept in. number of substantial changes. Th is one is described as [1645] a substantial change. It is signifi cant. Th en get onto a boat — usually whoever is running Th e commissioners write in their report that at the mo- what is the water taxi of the day — out for about another ment the disparity between the neighbouring districts of hour down an inlet. Th at is one of the most remote com- Comox Valley, which is 22 percent above the provincial munities, out to Kyuquot, on the west coast. average — I mean, 22 percent is huge, really; it’s almost a On the east side, as I mentioned, I have some ferry-re- quarter of the size again — and the Alberni–Pacifi c Rim, liant communities, which are comparatively easy to get to. which is the southern one, which is 18 percent under the A number of other people living on islands and commun- average…. What they tried to do is literally average it out. ities on islands don’t have ferry access so, again, need to get Th ey state in their report they did hear many submis- out then up to as far as Kingcome Inlet, which is several sions requesting no change. But their concern is that as hours’ trip by boat up to the inlet to the community there. population grows…. Th is is one of the very diffi cult tasks As I mentioned, it’s the fi ft h-largest in the province. that the commissioners have, looking to the future and It is quite extraordinary to be able to represent that and trying to judge what’s going to be happening to com- to represent, say, the 55,000 people. My colleague from munities. As population grows, the disparity is going to Vancouver–West End, Coal Harbour mentioned the per- be too great to ignore. centage of people who vote for you and the fact that you Th e commissioner is right. You see the growth in popu- represent everybody. I think that we all in this House try lation in the Comox-Courtenay corridor. Courtenay has to do that — try to be the best representative for anyone become very, very popular. A lot of young people and a who comes into the door of our offi ce, anyone who sends lot of young families are moving there. us an e-mail, anyone who picks up the phone. [1650] I was a little amused when the member for the Comox I’m extraordinarily pleased to see that this is happen- Valley mentioned that come the changes — assuming ing, to see young families moving back to the Island. A this goes forward with the exact changes — there would number of them, I’ve got to say, are people who grew up still be a representative for people even if they didn’t live in my community. Th ey went off , went to school, have in the new constituency of Comox and Courtenay. Th ey come back, are starting to settle down, have children. It’s would still be represented. aff ordable. It’s a nice community. It’s a young commun- It’s amusing in a slightly sad way because you so oft en ity. It’s a vibrant community. It would be much nicer if hear people…. It’s a bit like people saying they want to they came back up over the Oyster River and came back vote for the leader rather than the representative. You to Campbell River and onto the islands, but they’ve de- hear people talk about the fact that: “Well, we don’t have cided to stay in Courtenay. a government member, and therefore, we’re not going I think that the commissioners clearly picked up on the to be represented. We’re not going to get what we need.” fact that the demographic is changing, that it’s a growing Th at really does undermine the system that we work in area and that that change is too great to ignore. It will bal- when it truly works, which is that everybody has a role ance out the population, and while possibly psychologic- to play and everybody can take an active part and make ally diffi cult for people, it will be realistic. It’s not going change for people. to mean the end of the world. It does refl ect how things I think that’s why we all come here. We want to make are going federally. things better for people. It doesn’t matter whether we are The other major areas where they quoted substan- Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9765

tial change, and again, it’s very interesting…. Surrey, Mainland. I mentioned Richmond and Surrey. It’s going Richmond and New Westminster, and Hope and to be very interesting to see how these play out, really. Princeton are the other areas where the commission- [1655] ers are recommending some substantial changes. I think One of the things that is, again, I think an interesting in two of those areas it’s actually creating complete new piece to note in their report is the considerations at the constituencies. Hope and Princeton — it’s moving com- end of their report. It’s not going through, literally, the munities into diff erent areas. Again, for the member for line-by-line, street-by-street and community-by-com- Chilliwack-Hope, the community of Hope would move munity discussion they are presenting us with, but it’s back into its previous area. looking to the future and for consideration for the future I would like to, again, go back to the fact that the of how this works. I think it’s something that we really commissioners, when they were looking at this…. Th ey should look at, that we really should consider. made many, many other changes. As my colleague from Th ey have a couple of areas saying: “A number of mat- Nanaimo mentioned, some of the changes are roads or ters have arisen during the course of our work that have small parts of neighbourhoods. caused us to refl ect on various aspects of the administra- For those of us in this place, these are signifi cant — tion…of future commissions.” Th ey’re looking at creat- particularly, I’m sure, if you represent an urban com- ing…. “Prior to this commission, the practice…was to munity and you’re sharing this, whether it is in Burnaby create a special separate administrative entity to provide in Vancouver or Richmond or wherever. You actually all administrative support” — offi ce space and so on. know: “Well, on this side of the street, it’s my colleague’s Th en they’re suggesting going to Elections B.C…. constituency, and on that side of the street, it’s my con- stituency.” Or the boundaries have moved over three or Deputy Speaker: Th ank you, Member. four streets, and you lose what we call our good polls or you gain some places where you know you’re going to C. Trevena: I appreciate that, and I think that this is gain some votes. People really pass parse these things something that we all, as legislators, should look at as well very, very closely. — these last recommendations. For me, I look at more the bigger scale of community and how far and close to the rivers they are. Hon. S. Anton: It’s my pleasure to rise today and Th e electoral commission, when they were looking speak to the fi nal report of the Electoral Boundaries at this — going, literally, line by line, street by street, Commission. Like many others, I do want to thank the neighbourhood by neighbourhood, poll by poll — were commission for their tremendous work: Justice Th omas still, as I mentioned earlier on, confined by the con- Melnick, the chair; Beverley Busson, a former RCMP straints brought by the initial legislation. Th ey say in this: commissioner; and our province’s Chief Electoral Offi cer, “Amendments to the Electoral Boundaries Commission Dr. Keith Archer. Act in May 2014 defi ned three regions” — which I spoke As required by the Electoral Boundaries Commission about earlier — “in which the number of electoral dis- Act, the commission travelled widely this spring and tricts cannot be reduced from their current number. Th is received a large number of submissions from British has, of course, infl uenced in large measure our ability to Columbians. Twenty-nine public hearings were held propose electoral districts that are equal in population.” leading up to the release of the preliminary report, and a I think there is a bit of almost a warning to the gov- further 15 hearings were heard between the preliminary ernment on this, “in a large measure,” when we have an and fi nal report — also, more than 600 written submis- independent electoral commission feeling that they have sions from across the province. had their decisions and their thinking prescribed. Th at is a lot of very engaged citizens, and I want to They say: “This has, of course, influenced in large thank them all. I think that probably most of us knew measure our ability to propose electoral districts that are people who appeared before the commission. Th ey were equal in population. It has also infl uenced our decision thoughtful, they were engaged, and they all universally to propose 87 electoral districts.” In the legislation, again, wanted things to be good for British Columbia and good there was a limit on the number of new seats that could for representation in British Columbia. be created. Yes, we have a very crowded chamber at the The mandate of the commission is set out in the moment. We have the luxury of comfortable chairs and Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, and it’s also guid- big desks, but we are going to be squeezing in. If this is ed by the Supreme Court of Canada in the Saskatchewan approved, there will be another two desks and two more reference case from 1991. Th at case allows us to be diff er- chairs coming into this chamber. ent from some of the American jurisdictions where the Th is is thanks to the Electoral Boundaries Commission population has to be identical. We in Canada can have Act, which said that there could be no more than two, so variation from the equality of the population, and cer- we’re going to have the 87 districts rather than the 85. tainly that’s refl ected in this fi nal report and in the mo- Th ose two new ones are both going to be in the Lower tion before the House today. 9766 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

Th e commission can consider other factors such as or, but some substantial changes were recommended for geography, community history, community interests, the Fraser Valley, Hope-Princeton and mid–Vancouver minority representation or factors relevant to the locality. Island. In all cases, the commission was careful to note In other words, they can consider a number of diff erent that in its view, adjustments were necessary in order to and interesting things to local areas, to people and to the balance the population or to respect community interests. province as a whole. We’ve heard a number of people in this chamber talk In terms of the Electoral Boundaries Commission Act, about the changes to their own ridings. I think it’s ob- the act itself is guided by the principle of representation viously the case that we get committed to our ridings. by population but also takes into account geographical So when there is a change proposed, that we’re going to and demographic realities and the need to balance the lose a piece…. Speaking for myself, I did not lose any- community interests of the people of British Columbia. It thing in Vancouver-Fraserview, as MLA for Vancouver- is permitted to deviate from population equality by plus Fraserview, but there was some discussion about it, and I or minus 25 percent and to exceed that only in special felt, at the time, a little bit territorial about my own riding. circumstances. Well, it turned out to remain the same, but I know that Instructions to the commission, under amendments to others did lose pieces of their ridings and have got chan- the act in 2014, were to retain the number of districts in ges, and it is a bit wrenching to lose those pieces of your northern and rural regions of the province and proposed riding. You know those people. You know those com- between 85 and 87 electoral districts. Given the fast- munities. You know the schools. You know the commun- growing regions in the Lower Mainland, it’s not much ity associations. You’ve been representing them diligently surprise that they chose the 87 option over the keeping for the last two years, and perhaps much longer than that. it at 85 option. As all members know, these amendments So it can be a wrench to have those changes made, but I were thoroughly debated last year in the House. Th eir think that most people in this House are taking it sadly purpose was to ensure that no region of the province but philosophically, which is part of the process of bal- would have its representation in the Legislature reduced ancing the diff erent districts around British Columbia. through the elimination of districts. Th e commission did issue a caution that the work of Of course, it’s not just a hypothetical concern. Th e last drawing boundaries in this province continues to be a commission process in 2008 showed that northern and diffi cult one. Th e concern is not a new one, as past com- rural regions were at risk of losing districts. In our view, missions have also commented along the same lines. And that would have resulted in a loss of eff ective representa- in drawing the boundaries, they did look at things that tion in the Legislature for those areas. they have traditionally looked at, namely existing bound- [1700] aries, natural boundaries such as rivers or major high- It’s important to remember that we’re talking about ways, municipalities and regional districts — it’s easier if electoral districts that, in most cases, are greater than you can stay within the boundaries of a municipality or a 20,000 square kilometres, and some are over 100,000 regional district than dividing them — and even individ- square kilometres. Stikine is nearly 200,000 square kilo- ually looking at individual neighbourhoods, as the mem- metres — very massive districts with populations typical- ber for Vancouver–West End pointed out. So they did use ly located in smaller communities a great distance apart. those traditional things and their new mandate to come Th e 2014 amendments also permitted the commission to up with the 87 districts, which they did come up with. add up to two new districts, which I already mentioned a I would just like to speak briefly regarding the ad- moment ago, to pick up the extra population growth. Of ministration of the commission. Th ey did something course, those were done in Surrey and Richmond. new this time. Rather than setting up their own admin- Th e commission has done an admirable job in carry- istrative offi ce, which can be quite costly and takes time ing out its mandate. Its proposal to bring all urban areas to get set up, they actually used the offi ce of the impar- well within the plus-25-percent threshold worked be- tial Elections British Columbia, and they made, in the cause, in fact, no district is more than 18 percent above course of doing that, a recommendation that this prac- the average. Th is is an improvement on the last commis- tice continue. sion process, where several districts were more than 20 Certainly, we will all know in this House that the percent above the average. province is very committed to balancing the budget and Th e number of districts more than 25 percent below staying within our fi scal means, and I would like to com- the average has not changed. It remains at ten. In most pliment the commission, who spent about $1.5 million cases, the populations of these districts have not changed of their proposed $4.5 million budget. In fact, they spent much from the last commission process, although some about a third of their budget. Would we all be so frugal? of them have become even more negative than they were But they did it by working, as I said, cooperatively with before in terms of population. Elections British Columbia. It seems to have been a very In all, the commission recommended changes to 45 satisfactory arrangement, and one that they propose con- of the province’s electoral districts. Most are fairly min- tinuing, so I do thank them for doing that. Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9767

I’d like to compliment the commission on one other parents. Th ey do these beautiful festivals in the summer, thing as well, which is their fi nal report. Th e preparation which are a lot of fun to attend. Champlain’s community that they did in terms of the mapping and the discus- centre has a wonderful summer fair and, of course, sup- sions in the report makes it very clear for anyone reading ports the Everett Crowley Park. it, any member of the public, any member of this assem- Th en there’s the River District, which, as I said a mo- bly, exactly how they came about their thought processes. ment ago, is the biggest development in Metro Vancouver. Whoever did their mapping work and their geographic I will point out one interesting fact about the River work — it really is a beautiful work to look at. District. It is the home of the only riverfront restaurant [1705] in the city of Vancouver. Th at’s hard to believe, because I, for myself, will be keeping this in my offi ce because we’ve got a lot of waterfront in Vancouver, but there is it provides a very nice map of every single district in the only one restaurant on the waterfront, and that is in the province. So again, I would like to compliment the com- River District. mission on their very excellent presentation of the work So Vancouver-Fraserview is an engaged community. It that they did. has wonderful schools, and it has a positive view for the I’ll just talk for a moment about Vancouver-Fraserview. future, and it is a pleasure for myself to be able to be the Vancouver-Fraserview will be the largest riding in British MLA for Vancouver-Fraserview. It’s the biggest, but it’s Columbia, the largest district in British Columbia, at beautiful, it’s engaged, it’s hard-working, and it’s a popu- 62,000 people — not by size, of course, but by popula- lation which is very interesting, very engaged. tion. It is three times the size of Stikine. Th ey love to talk to me, and I love to talk to them. I Th ere are a couple that are up there with Vancouver- think, as many of us have mentioned, all of us walking Fraserview. Not quite as big, but the two closest are around our communities…. To be able to talk to people Vernon-Monashee and Vancouver-Kingsway. So it is and fi nd out what’s on their minds really is one of life’s really a comparison in these — the large population of great pleasures for all of us, I think, as MLAs. Fraserview and small area compared with smaller com- I would just end by saying that ours is a province with munities and a massive area. dense and growing urban areas and very remote north- I should point out, as well, that Vancouver-Fraserview ern and rural regions. Th ey have interests which are dif- is growing very quickly. It’s the home of the new River ferent, and they have interests which are the same. District, which actually is the largest new development Of course, what binds us in British Columbia is our in- in Metro Vancouver. terest in the welfare of our families and the welfare and So I am guessing that by eight years from now, when prosperity of our province — the cultural prosperity of the commission meets again, Vancouver-Fraserview may our province, the economic prosperity of our province. fi nd its boundaries revised, because it will be by far the We need to ensure that all British Columbians are largest riding in British Columbia. It’s the largest now, represented appropriately in this chamber, and I believe and it will, I am predicting, stay the largest — in fact, that the work that Electoral Boundaries Commission has grow incrementally larger. done does just that. And so, of course, I’m very pleased It is only 13 square kilometres in size, so of course, to support the motion and propose shortly that the new as the representative, I can cross it quickly, unlike, as bill be introduced and hope that the House will be in sup- has been observed, some of the other ridings in British port of that as well. Columbia that take hours or fairly long fl ights on an air- [1710] plane to cover. So they are certainly a far diff erent experi- ence in a large rural riding compared to an urban riding B. Routley: I’m sure it won’t come as any surprise that such as mine. I will be voting for the report of the Electoral Boundaries Just to speak, again, briefl y on Fraserview, there is Commission and their act — this legislation. I did fi nd a very strong community of interest there — circling kind of a fascinating bit of information. In fact, I would around, for example, Killarney Community Centre — go so far as to say that the Cowichan region had a little bit full of very active children, youth and seniors. of its own jiggery-pokery, but I hasten to add that I’ll save In particular, I would like to point out the Chinese that for the history lesson that I’m going to go through. seniors in Killarney Centre, who are there every single I want to start, fi rst, by talking about the Electoral day at 7:30 in the morning doing their exercises and, in- Boundaries Commission Act. The new Electoral deed, all day long and are very engaged in the discussion Boundaries Commission must be established, according around the new seniors centre, as are all of the seniors in to the act, every second general election for the purpose the Killarney neighbourhood. I’d like to point out South of looking at changes to, basically, three parts. Th at’s the Vancouver Family Place, which advocated for and is now area, the boundaries and the names of electoral districts getting a new playground. throughout British Columbia. Th e elementary schools in Fraserview have a real com- The commission must be governed by the follow- monality of interest, and they’re, again, very engaged ing principles: “that the principle of representation by 9768 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

population be achieved” — as much as possible — “rec- vote-getter was Henry Fry, with only ten votes. It’s inter- ognizing the imperatives imposed by geographical and esting to me that back in 1871, it only took 58 votes to demographic realities, the legacy of our history….” Again, top the polls in the new Cowichan riding at that time. So I’m quoting from the requirements that are in the act. I’m again, very interesting reading. going to be coming back and camping on this “legacy of Th en, I was surprised to learn that in 1886, two mem- our history and the need to balance the community in- bers won by acclamation. Th en, we come to that…. Well, terests of the people of British Columbia” in a moment. no. I should talk about William Smithe. In 1871 — again, I do think it’s useful for the good people of the he was from Cowichan, and he actually became the Cowichan Valley to have some local historical context Premier of British Columbia. He was Premier — I guess to these electoral and geographical boundary changes that was in the election of…. Actually, let me just con- to the boundaries over the history of our riding. It’s very tinue in my chronological order. interesting, actually, to me. I took some time over the In 1886, there were two members who won by acclam- weekend to get into the computer and do some research ation. Again, that was William Smithe and John Paton on just how far back the Cowichan elected representa- Booth. In 1871, he had been fi rst elected MLA, and he tion goes. In fact, it goes right back to the very beginning. had a growing reputation, apparently, in the Cowichan But fi rst, a little background. By 1866, the colonies Valley as a community leader in a rapidly increasing of Vancouver Island and British Columbia had merged. farming district around Somenos, near Duncan, in the I want to start there, for a reason. Th en, although the Cowichan Valley. united colony did not join the Canadian Confederation I would add that Somenos and Somenos Lake and when it was eff ected in 1867, the worrisome and eco- Somenos Creek region is right near where I live today. nomic strategic situation here in the province soon made When I did my research today, I thought about the fact an arrangement attractive, so British Columbia joined — when I was walking my two golden retrievers down Confederation on July 20, 1871. near the Somenos farmland and the Somenos Lake and Now, that same year, 1871, Cowichan was one of the Somenos Creek — that sometime back in the 1800s, a the fi rst 12 electoral districts in the province of British fella named Bill, William Smithe, was walking those same Columbia. Th ere wasn’t any electoral commission estab- areas and was a farmer and then a politician. It defi nitely lished. Th ere was a process whereby it was simply decided gave me pause to think about all of the changes since the that there were going to be 12 electoral districts, and they very fi rst election in this Legislative Assembly. Obviously, created one of them named Cowichan. Th e Cowichan it’s a lot more crowded today than it was when there were electoral area was simply identifi ed back then as located only 12 electoral areas. on southern Vancouver Island. It was a two-member rid- I had no idea that he was actually the fi rst MLA in the ing back in 1871. Cowichan Valley region, right then at the start of elec- At that time, the very fi rst election, there were two tions in British Columbia. During the term, he main- MLAs elected. William Smithe — who added an “e,” I tained an independent stance, refusing to support the might add — decided he wanted to be a little bit diff erent fi rst Premier. I might add they didn’t have parties back than the rest of the Smiths. He added an “e,” so I’m not then. And so he didn’t support the fi rst Premier or his sure if his name is William “Smithee” or William “Smythe,” successors. but he nonetheless was elected in the fi rst election. In the election of 1875, Smithe and his friend Edwin I happen to have to have right here the actual results Pimbury won the two Cowichan seats for an anti-gov- for that year. It made, for me, some very fascinating read- ernment force that was campaigning. Th ey were capital- ing to see the 12 electoral areas. Th e fi rst electoral area izing on the failure of the Walkem government to begin was the Cariboo. Th ey had three representatives elected construction on a road — get this, hon. Speaker — from from the Cariboo. Comox was a one-member riding. Victoria to Cowichan. We call that the Malahat. We still Cowichan had two. Esquimalt, two. Th e Kootenays, two. talk about issues in between Victoria and Cowichan. Lillooet, two. Nanaimo was a one-member riding, inter- Every time I drive over there from now on, I’ll be think- estingly enough. I’m surprised at that. New Westminster ing about the fact that it was an issue in the very fi rst had two. Victoria had two. Victoria City had four. And group that were elected in this House and that they were, Yale had three. at the time, anti-government. Th ey were talking about [1715] the need for a highway. It’s fascinating to look at these 12 electoral ridings that [1720] elected more than 12 people because of the diff erences in I’m told by the history books that the reason this all of the numbers. But fascinating to me was — and I just was in conflict…. This was a road from Victoria to want to camp there for a moment — that very fi rst election. Cowichan, which had had an appropriation made, here William Smithe topped the polls. He had 58 votes in in this Legislative Assembly, for that road to be built and the Cowichan electoral area, and John Paton Booth was it wasn’t being built. So interesting. Amazing that the second, with 47. Th en the numbers go down. Th e lowest Malahat — it’s still an issue today. Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9769

Anyway, this Cowichan Valley MLA went on to be- I think it is appropriate, given the historical record and come the seventh Premier of British Columbia. He was what it says in the newspaper about election irregularities representing, as I say, Cowichan — full stop. It wasn’t involving the returning offi cer. called Cowichan Valley back then — just Cowichan, Before 1903, British Columbia did not have a party full stop. system. Instead, the Premiers of British Columbia had He became the Premier — again, not running for any no offi cial party affi liation and were chosen by elected particular party because there weren’t parties back then members of the Legislative Assembly from among them- — and he was Premier from January 29, 1883, until March selves. Th at’s the way it fi rst started. Candidates ran as 28, 1887. Unfortunately, he passed away on that day, government — this is interesting — or opposition, as an March 28, 1887, according to the Times Colonist, in the independent or in formulations such as opposition in- research that I did. We actually found the article in the li- dependent, indicating their respective positions to the brary here. He died, it was reported in the Times Colonist, incumbent government. of poor health. Well, I know something about that, too, While this William Smithe with an “e” was an MLA…. unfortunately. But anyway, it is…. Well, I’m not planning He was an MLA from 1842 to 1887 — wow. Cowichan, on dying anytime soon. I’m glad that I was saved by our a stand-alone name — its last appearance ended up on health system. But it is fascinating that this happened. the political area hustings in 1920. So by 1920, things had Now, here’s where we get pretty close to the jiggery- changed. I, again, think it’s fascinating. pokery. Th e early legislative members were fi rst elected I want to thank publicly the librarian, Peter Gourlay. to the Legislature during general elections with no party Th ey do wonderful work in our provincial library, and I affi liation. Th at system was in place from the inception of really appreciate his work. I went in with some questions, this place, so when it started in 1871, all the way till 1903. what I thought were dumb questions from the old mill- Aft er 1903, there were the fi rst parties recognized in this worker from Youbou. He didn’t think they were dumb place. Sadly, it was a Conservative government that was questions. He thought it was an interesting ride. I was ab- the fi rst one, but we won’t dwell on that. solutely fl abbergasted. He just went out of the room, was Th at’s not the jiggery-pokery. Th e jiggery-pokery that, back in less than fi ve minutes, had the book in his hand I dare say, was a bit strange was actually on May 7, 1895. and made me a copy of the electoral redistribution in Get this. We actually had two elections in what was then British Columbia from the very fi rst, from 1871 to 1986. called…. It went from Cowichan, just straight Cowichan, Now, we’ve got the more recent data here, which I’m and all of a sudden, we’re Cowichan-Alberni. Now, that’s going to get into in a minute, but I just want to take you a bit of jiggery-pokery in itself. It was a long way to get down memory lane. Again, there wasn’t an electoral com- to Alberni in those days. mission, but this is what it says in the legislation, that we But what’s really shocking is what it says here in the need to look at the historical record. Keep that in mind. history books. On May 7, 1895, George Albert Huff and Th e distribution was 12 districts, as I’ve said, back Th omas Anthony Wood turned up with exactly the same in 1871, and the total members elected were 25. So number of votes, with 172 for both of them. Now, what’s not a very big, full House. We had 25 people rattling interesting…. You have to get out your magnifying glass around in here in total. Th at was the total number. Th ere to read this. Apparently, it said that the returning offi cer would have been lots of room for extra tables and chairs. allowed two questionable ballots, giving Wood 174. Th e Certainly, the two sword lengths apart would have been offi cial report of the deputy returning offi cer, confi rmed no problem whatsoever. later by a Supreme Court of British Columbia, however, Now, it stayed at 12 districts through a variety of elec- gave Huff 173 to Wood’s 172. So actually Huff pulled tions. Th en fi nally, in 1882, the number bumped up from ahead of Wood. 12 districts to 13. But the numbers stayed the same. Th ey As well, there were no returns from the Clayoquot re- kept 25 elected members in the House. Th e number 25 gion in Alberni, and there were other irregularities re- stood all the way until 1886, when there were still 13 ported in the paper. Huff formally claimed the seat and areas but we went to 27. So they’re starting to build the petitioned the Supreme Court. Th at was in the Nanaimo numbers. Free Press, April 27, 1895. In 1890, they bounced all the way from 13 districts to Here’s the interesting thing. Remember, there was an 18 — so wow, substantial. Five new areas, and we went election held for the Cowichan-Alberni seat on May 7, from 27 to 33. The number of electoral districts and 1895. Th en in October, we had a new election, and this members increased. Th e new districts were Alberni, Th e time Huff won handily. His votes went from 172, for both Islands, Nanaimo City, Vancouver City — two members of them, to…. He ended up with 253, and his opponent there. Kootenay was divided into East Kootenay and had 175. So it was cleared up once and for all — that mat- West Kootenay, one member each. New Westminster dis- ter. And they had an increased turnout as a result of all trict became Westminster. Th at’s back then in 1890. Th at of the — well, may I say — jiggery-pokery. stayed at 18 for a bit. Th en in 1894, we went from the 25…. [1725] [1730] 9770 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

Actually, we went up in the number of districts. We In August 1965, there were no electoral boundaries…. went from 18 districts to 25 districts, but we kept the So the three-member commission of Henry Angus, number of elected representatives. Th ey divided some of Frederick Hurley and Kenneth Morton were appointed the two-member ridings and then increased the number by an order-in-council from government. Again, it was of districts, but they didn’t increase the number of mem- an order-in-council, not legislation, that put them there bers that were working in this House as MLAs. under the Public Inquiries Act. Th e order-in-council Th e next bump didn’t occur till 1898 and right up till directed the commission to secure…. 1900, when they went from 25 and 33 to 29 districts, so I’m going to turn now to the Norris commission in we went from 25 to 29 — four more districts and 38 1975. Th is three-member commission had an increase MLAs. Th ere were an additional fi ve MLAs. Th en in 1903, in the number of MLAs from 55 to 62. Th en the Eckardt we went from 29 to 34, with 42 members elected to the commission was 1978. Legislature, and that stayed from 1903 for quite a period Th e Warren commission. Th at’s a familiar name. Th ere of time until 1916. So from 1903 to 1916, which was the was a Warren commission down in the United States, and next one, where we went to 39 districts and 47 members. we know that that was into the tragic events of a President of the United States. However, the Warren commission [R. Chouhan in the chair.] was established for Derril T. Warren in 1982. His order- in-council, once again, instructed him to make recom- Th e next bump was in 1924. It went from 39 districts mendations on the basis of the Legislative Assembly and to 40 districts and had 48 members in the Legislative that it should comprise no fewer than 57 members, nor Assembly. Th e next change didn’t occur until all the way more than 71. from 1924 to 1941. In 1941, we went from 40 districts to Th e next recommendation was in 1984 — the McAdam 41, with still keeping the 48 members. Th e 48 members commission. Th ere have been a lot of commissions over stayed in place until 1956. In 1956, they increased the the history of British Columbia, and I’m emphasiz- number of members in this Legislative Assembly. Th e ing that. Also, talking about the historical record, the number of districts was 42. McAdam commission in 1984…. Th e provincial gov- You can see that they’re starting to do away with the ernment appointed a three-person electoral commis- two members in a riding and started having individual sion. Again, this was appointed, not a legislative action geographical ridings. But we still had in 1956, 42 districts requirement. and 52 members in the Legislative Assembly. Somewhere, Th ey were applying the 1984 legislative amendments, at least ten areas, there had to be more than one person and the commission recommended the 11 one-member elected for that individual riding. electoral districts to be increased to two members each. Th en we bump up to 1966, and at that time, we went from 42 to 48 districts, and we went from 52 members to There was actually a recommendation from the com- 55. Again, you can see the gradual bump-up over a long missioner to increase a number of areas. In 1985, the period of time. Th is was a ten-year period. It took ten Legislative Assembly increased the number of MLAs years to go from 55…. Th e next bump-up was from 52 from 57 MLAs to 69. Th ere was a substantial increase, a to 55 in 1966. Th ey added two additional members from 12-person increase by that time. 1966 to 1979. Th at’s 13 years later. Th irteen years later The Fisher commission. In 1988, the hon. Judge they decided to go from 55 members in the Legislative Thomas Fisher was appointed under the Inquiry Act Assembly to 57. Th en from 1979, the next change was again. He went away, and he ultimately recommended 1986, where they went from 52 members to a total of 69 that the number of MLAs be increased from 69 to 75. members in the Legislative Assembly. He also decided that in drawing boundaries, he would We know that aft er 1966…. I’ve got the history of the not deviate more than plus or minus 25 percent. Th is is electoral boundaries. I think this document is from 1999, where that started, the whole notion of this plus or minus. but I’m not sure. Th is starts up where I just left off , in 1966, Th en the commission was permitted to exceed this where the province had 42 electoral districts electing 52 deviation only where it considers that there were very MLAs, and there were 34 one-member ridings, six two- special circumstances that existed. member ridings and two three-member ridings. Th at an- We go on, then, to 1999, the Wood commission. Th ere swers the question. As it says here, in 1955, the Legislative had been a 29 percent increase in B.C.’s population over Assembly increased the number of MLAs from 48 to 52. the preceding ten years. They found that fascinating. Now, let’s talk about the interesting ride where there Didn’t I hear some folks in this House suggest that there wasn’t always a commission. In some cases, they were were people running away from B.C.? Well, apparently, appointed by government. Th e next historical date, in in 1999, there was a report that there was a 29 percent terms of a commission, was the Angus commission. In increase in B.C.’s population over the preceding ten years. 1966, they did a report. [1735] Interjection. Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9771

B. Routley: Isn’t that fascinating? Yeah, I know. I found delight and an education in the many byways of this prov- it fascinating. ince — an enjoyable and educational virtual aerial tour of Anyway, in 1999, the Legislative Assembly adopted the this tremendously big and diverse land that we represent. Wood commission’s proposed 79 electoral districts, with- Looking at these maps, I was reminded again of the out change. We know we went from 79 in 1999. In 2008, vastness of this province. Many, I’m sure, have not ac- we went from 79 to 85, the current number of MLAs here tually travelled much in the north. My fi rst experience in the Legislature. We’re now looking at a report to rec- in travelling to the Yukon, just beyond our northern bor- ommend that we go from 85 to 87. Again, I think it was a der, took place, in my case, in midcareer. I was shocked thoughtful report, and I congratulate them for their work. to learn, or to realize — I mean, I had known it all along, [1740] but I actually hadn’t experienced it — that the fi rst leg of my long airplane trip to Vancouver from Toronto was to R. Sultan: I would like to thank the member for be followed by an equally long, hour-aft er-hour, sharp Cowichan Valley for that history lesson and the remind- right turn over the wild and lonely terrain, as we crawled er that, a mere 30 years ago, we somehow got by, manag- our way north to Whitehorse. ing this entire province, with only 57 MLAs. Obviously, It was sobering to realize Prince George really wasn’t in they were smarter and worked harder and perhaps longer the north. It was only halfway. Folks in the urban south hours in those days, but time goes on. And I always ap- really have to understand this a little bit better, and we preciate his jiggery-pokery stories, and he never seems don’t. Th e distances are sobering, and probably would to run out of material. discourage MLAs who can call on their constituents from I support this motion to adopt the proposals con- one end to the other, as the member for Vancouver–West tained in the fi nal report of the Electoral Boundaries End reminded us this aft ernoon, on their bicycles. Commission, tabled in this place on September 28. In so Well, for all of these reasons, and since the recom- doing, I wish to congratulate the Electoral Boundaries mendations try so hard to please everybody — and do, Commission — supported in many ways, I’m sure by it seems — the motion merits all of our support. But I Elections B.C. — in submitting proposals for redis- would also suggest future boundary commissions should tricting, which are in accordance with the government’s take into account two more sobering and possibly diffi - broadly expressed wishes, which are fair and doable cult-to-manage realities. and which balance the appetite for representation in [1745] this place as between the more thinly populated rural Distance is no longer such a compelling factor when areas and the more densely populated urban areas of we consider today the vast distances and thin popula- the province. tions which characterize, for example, northern ridings. I give an A grade to the commission for dutifully fol- Th anks to modern communication, our world is shrink- lowing the wishes of the government to bend the plus- or ing rapidly. minus-25-percent rules, the origin of which the member Th is point was brought home to me only last week for Cowichan Valley just traced out for us, as regards the when my cousin from Sweden visited for a couple of ratio of the number of voters per MLA, pushing the vari- weeks, actually. One evening he took out his iPhone and ation from the mean to as high as 47 percent in the case said good night to his children face to face. I saw him of Peace River South. talking in the corner, and I thought: “Who does he know Whether others regard that as an unreasonably large in Vancouver, really?” Well, he was talking to his kids face variation could conceivably generate legal activity down to face. I received a quick education in FaceTime. Th ey the road. But as for myself, recognizing that if we as- were in Gothenburg, as we say in Swedish, and he was signed seats according to economic contribution to the in Vancouver. province, as opposed to population, we would see the To show how easy it was, he said: “Well, your iPhone Peace country by some economic measures, as being has FaceTime.” I said: “Yeah, it does, as a matter of fact. grossly under-represented. So I, for one, can live with the I’ve never actually used it.” So he dialed in for me, and in proposed discrepancies. less time than it takes to tell, his smiling face was trans- I also gave an A grade to the commission for its budget- mitted to Gothenburg in southern Sweden and back ary accomplishments, having a budget of about $4 mil- to the screen of my device. I could look at him in per- lion and spending only about $1 million. If only all of the son, holding the device up simultaneously on the view- members, offi cers, agencies and commissions which are ing screen of my iPhone, having made the round trip to created in this place adhered to a similar degree of fi scal Sweden and back without any noticeable delay. prudence, we would all enjoy louder taxpayer applause. Well, this technology, which I am sure is old hat to I also gave an A grade to the commission for its car- many of you, is universally available and quite inexpen- tography, since for those, such as myself, who love maps, sive. Th e argument that it’s harder to get around northern particularly in multiple colours, leafi ng through the multi- regions and talk with people loses much of its punch. It’s coloured ridings maps of the report is a geographical simply no longer true. 9772 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

The other reality which I believe future boundary and Keith Archer for their incredible work. But also, I commissions must consider is the issue of what I’d call would like to recognize all of the staff . packaging. Th is place is full. We can’t easily squeeze I think people don’t really understand and appreciate more MLAs into it, unless we double-bunk at our desks, that when a commission is going out there to do this kind maybe, or create a balcony around the perimeter to of complicated work, it is supported by a huge amount house new MLAs. of staff from here in the Legislature or, in this case, from Th e last redistribution had a creative replacement of the independent B.C. Electoral Boundaries Commission. the straight-as-an-arrow desk layout — which, I sup- Th ey’re the ones who have to take all of the thinking and pose, some of you can’t recall — with the present sinu- listening that happens by the commissioners and put that ous wiggle of the layout of our desks. Th at has already, into reality, to create the incredible maps and book that to my eye, violated the two-swords-length-distance rule we see before us. between the government and the opposition, at least at I’d also like to take a moment to thank everybody who this end of the House. Dangerous. What sexy new wiggles comes and speaks to commissions like this. I think that may be dreamed up by the packaging experts tomorrow? sometimes in politics we take it for granted. People just It’s undignifi ed. assume that other people do the work, and there isn’t a lot Th e idea of pushing the south wall — I’m referring to of interest in something as important as electoral bound- the wall to my left ; I think it’s more or less in the south- aries. In reality, it is fundamental to the fairness in a dem- erly end of the spectrum here — further south, which, in- ocracy to have this kind of important work take place. deed, ran across my mind last redistributing, is not only Let me just speak for a moment here and speak to architecturally ambitious, it would push the Speaker’s what happens in jurisdictions that don’t have what it chair even further from the centre of action, when ris- is that we take for granted here, which is an independ- ing tempers suggest that a move in the opposite direction ent Boundaries Commission — independent of polit- would be prudent. icians, independent of political parties — that goes out Furthermore, they threaten the perch of such eminent and, every two election cycles, looks at the demograph- chroniclers of this space as Messrs. Palmer and Baldrey, ic change in British Columbia and determines changes who probably would lose that balcony. Th erefore, let’s to our boundaries that ensure that at the end of the day, concede, ladies and gentlemen, Members and offi cials, we can have faith in our electoral system to ensure that that the inn is full. it is fair. In future redistributions, therefore, we shall no longer We only have to look just south of us, to our cousins have the luxury of keeping everybody happy by simply in the United States, to see what happens when you have creating more MLAs. Th e geographic distance, I sug- a system that is not bound in fairness with an independ- gest, is waning in importance — as important as it still is ent Boundaries Commission as we have here in British though. I don’t want to minimize that, but the trend line Columbia and, indeed, in Canada. is in the opposite way. Th ere you see politicians nefariously getting involved Th e physical space limitations of this place are becom- in redistribution of boundaries to the extent that in the ing more compelling, I suggest. And our speaking notes United States — I think I’m right in saying — about 80 have let the cat out of the bag, as quoted by one of our percent of all congressional districts are decided long eminent cabinet members, by estimating that each MLA before the citizens go to the polls. Why? Because they’ve costs the taxpayer between $300,000 and $500,000 each manipulated all of these boundaries in such a way as to and every year. Th e taxpayers should not, therefore, tol- make sure that they move geographically in a really frac- erate further simple numerical expansion of this place. tious state. As I support this bill, I also suggest that it’s the end of It looks almost like a puzzle. Why? Because they want an era. Much more tough-minded redistributions will be to make sure that either Democrats or Republicans are necessary in our assembly’s future. in that riding, thus making it safe for the sitting member [1750] of the Congress. I think we should celebrate the fact that we have set up a commission and recognized that those R. Austin: It’s a privilege to rise in the Legislature here kinds of manipulating tactics cannot take place here in to speak to the motion. “Be it resolved that in accordance British Columbia. with section 14 of the Electoral Boundaries Commission I’d like to thank those citizens who go out and speak Act…the proposals contained in the Final Report of the to the Boundaries Commission. Everybody’s life is busy. Electoral Boundaries Commission…” — tabled here on One of the things I think a lot of us…. We’ve just gone September 28 — “be approved.” I — like, I think, every- through a federal election. One of the things that some body here in the Legislature, of course — am rising to of us who work in politics full-time don’t appreciate speak in favour of this report. sometimes…. I’d like to add to other MLAs and thank the commis- We get a little bit frustrated when we think that per- sion — not just Justice Th omas Melnick and Bev Busson haps citizens aren’t paying attention to the issues of the Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9773

day like those of us in here who make a living from doing to what is a riding with a very low population. But in so this. But the reality is that most citizens are busy paying doing, they were taking away the ability of the MLA to their bills, going to work, raising their families, taking do their job properly, and more importantly, they were care of their elders and loved ones, and that dominates taking away the right of citizens in the Nass Valley to their lives. regularly have contact with their MLA — because of this So when people come forward and take time out geographic distance. of their own time to go and sit before the Boundaries If you have a valley like the Nass Valley, where there’s Commission to talk to the commission about things that one road in and out and the only road comes into the are of interest to them that show that if there are changes community of Terrace, it simply makes sense for the in their district, that somehow they will lose out…. Th e Nass Valley to have been connected to the Skeena rid- most common reason for that is speaking to the issue of ing, as it was historically, prior to that one ten-year per- community interest. iod when it was removed. Th ere’s a good example of a As we’ve heard here in the Legislature, the commission boundary change that was necessary. Even though it has some boundaries itself as to what it can do. It has to was taking population from a riding that already had a look at the population growth. It has to try and balance very low population, it still made sense when that change the diff erence between representation by population ver- happened to bring the Nass Valley back into the Skeena sus geographic representation, and it has to take into con- riding. sideration historical and community interest. Th e same goes for Stewart. Th e MLA for Stikine that [1755] has now Stewart in that riding…. I think that when people, citizens, go and make their Most people who work in Stewart are dependent on facts known to the commission,it enlightens them to the mining industry. Th at’s the big industry that had understand that this is an incredibly diverse province. Stewart booming at one time. Th ere’s been a slowdown as You can’t expect three people who are going to various a result of mines that have closed. But when you consider places in the province to understand the various com- all the mines that are in the northwest of B.C. and the fact munity interests that are prevalent in our province. that Stewart is a port and the fact that the largest single With that in mind, I’m just going to speak for a second private investment that’s been made recently is about about my riding of Skeena and speak for a moment to the ability of the Port of Stewart to be able to take prod- the whole notion of community interest. When I fi rst got uct from any potential mines that get going, it only just elected here in 2005, my colleague from the North Coast, makes sense for the member for Stikine, who has those who has one of the ridings with the greatest amount of mines in his jurisdiction, to also be taking care of Stewart. travel already in it…. It is centred in Prince Rupert and Th ese are just a couple of factors, when you’re talk- then involves lots of travel to Haida Gwaii and to all the ing about a community of interest. I’m sure that every coastal communities up and down the central coast of member of the Legislature can speak to various parts of B.C. At that time, the constituency and boundaries of their constituency where they don’t want to see changes that riding also included the Nass Valley and — get this, made, as a result of trying to keep a community of inter- hon. Speaker — Stewart. est in place. Let’s look at this for a second. You had a member for One of the interesting things about listening to this the North Coast. When he wasn’t busy on a fl oatplane or debate over the last couple of days is, fi rst and foremost, on a ferry trying to get to the communities that he was the fact that we can get up and speak about a topic that supposed to represent, when he was actually on land is non-partisan. You learn a lot about the diversity of this in Prince Rupert, if he wanted to go and meet his con- province by listening to MLAs speak about their ridings. stituents in the Nass Valley, he would drive 1½ hours I’d like to take this opportunity to thank my colleague to Terrace — I’d give him a passport for the day to ride from Cowichan for his history lesson on the history of through my constituency — and then would drive for this place and how it is that we have gone, over the years, another 2½ hours up the Nass Valley road to get to the from joining Confederation to the point we are today, Nass Valley as far as Kincolith. where we have an independent Boundaries Commission. If he wanted to go and speak to citizens, at that time, [1800] in Stewart, I’d also, again, grant him a passport through As he alluded to, there were some shenanigans that the riding, and he would come to Terrace, 1½ hours, and happened before we had set up an independent bound- then drive for 3½ hours each way through the Skeena aries commission, where politicians were trying to tweak riding and through the Stikine riding to get to Stewart. boundaries in such a way that it benefi ted them. Obviously, people recognize that that Boundaries One of the things that I have certainly heard in this Commission, when it made that determination…. Legislature for the last couple of days is the fact that there Obviously, what they were looking at was how they could are three very distinct kinds of constituencies here in move people into the constituency. That Boundaries British Columbia. You have the very tight, highly dense Commission was really focused on trying to add citizens urban constituencies; you have the less densely popu- 9774 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015

lated but slightly bigger suburban constituencies; and, of I was interested to listen to the comment coming from course, you have ridings, like mine in northern British the member who preceded me in talking about mod- Columbia, with a huge geography and a small population. ern technology and how, as he said, distance is no long- I think those distinct diff erences speak to some of the er a factor. I would agree to a certain extent with what challenges that this commission and any commission has he’s saying. But here’s the challenge. MLAs oft en get to to deal with. If you look at a map of Canada, what you see meet their constituents about things that are private — is that about 80 percent of the Canadian population lives very private, actually. Sometimes you need to meet with within about 150 kilometres of the U.S. border. people face to face — not just face to face using one of What we have in this country — it’s not just something these, but face to face — because the issue is private. It’s that is a problem here in British Columbia; it’s a problem emotional. that’s right across the country — is the challenge of trying to create a fair level of representation in a country where [Madame Speaker in the chair.] you have a massive amount of population in a small area [1805] — thinly, right across the U.S.-Canadian border — and Frankly, as we know, as human beings, psychologists, then you have a ton of geography, a huge amount of geog- I think, would tell you that about 80 percent of our com- raphy, with a very sparsely populated country. munication is non-verbal. It is actually in the body lan- Trying to balance — not just the notion — the right guage that we as human beings communicate, as opposed of population by representation versus the ability for to many other species. people to feel that they are being represented in a fair Th ere are times when technology can replace the fact way is the challenge that takes place every time we have that we have to be in a room. I grant him that. But there this discussion. are also times when people come to speak to us about Speaking for myself, let me just give you some idea of extremely personal challenging matters. I’ll give an ex- the diff erences. I sit next to a member here, the mem- ample: parents whose children may have been taken into ber for the west end of Vancouver. In his riding, as he care by the ministry. Th ose are emotional times and are alluded to earlier today, he is able to bicycle around his very emotional meetings. riding probably in less than an hour — bicycle around it. Families struggling with health conditions, families He could probably walk around it in a couple of hours. struggling with elderly parents who have health condi- Certainly, he could walk across it diagonally in a couple of tions — those are just a couple of examples where, gen- hours. He has a large population in that very small riding. erally speaking, and I’m sure a lot of MLAs will concur Compare that with myself. I’m relatively lucky. Th ere here, this isn’t a conversation you have on a phone. Th is are eight ridings in northern B.C. I can stand here and say isn’t a conversation you have via e-mail. Th is isn’t a con- that I’m the luckiest of the MLAs who live in northern B.C. versation you have on FaceTime or on Skype. Th ese are In my riding, while there’s quite a lot of geography, the conversations that people want to have face to face with actual distance of population base from the furthest in their MLA. the northwest to the furthest in the southeast — I can I think it’s fair to say that in those extreme circum- drive that in about 4½ to fi ve hours. I can actually go stances — we have a lot of them, unfortunately, where I from one end of the riding to the other in terms of meet- live — it’s important that people have the ability and the ing people in four to fi ve hours, which is extraordinary. right to be able to actually go to an offi ce and sit down There are people who represent northern B.C. rid- with their MLA or have their MLA come to their house ings…. I’ll take, for example, my colleague from Stikine. or to their community to speak privately about these When he wants to go and visit constituents in Atlin, he kinds of issues. has to either take a plane to Whitehorse — not even in We also have to recognize that while many of us who British Columbia — rent a car and then drive down to live here…. I mean, we are given all these things courtesy Atlin. If he wants to drive to Dease Lake or to Telegraph of the taxpayers of British Columbia. Th ere are plenty of Creek or to Stewart to visit his constituents, he’s looking people in British Columbia who don’t have access to the at a round trip of probably 20 to 25 hours to go and visit kind of technology that we take for granted or who live his constituents. in parts of the province where there isn’t even broadband. When you hear this incredible diversity that we have In my constituency, when I’m driving from town to in British Columbia, you recognize that this Boundaries town, I don’t even have cell phone service, let alone Commission has a diffi cult job. If people want to come broadband. Th ere are huge swaths of the province that and visit the MLA in the west end of Vancouver, chances don’t benefi t from the fact that in urban areas, we are are they don’t need a car. Th ey don’t need a bicycle. Th ey really hard-wired; we have broadband. don’t need to get on public transit. Th ey can walk to his I’ll give you another example. We could use technol- offi ce because any place in his riding is within walking ogy and do use technology now to bring education — not distance of his offi ce. Th at’s not the case for those of us just higher education, post-secondary education — in the who live in rural ridings. school system via the Internet. But there are huge areas, Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9775

particularly on First Nations reserves and in small com- spend way more time travelling but don’t have as many munities, where they can’t even take benefi t of that. constituents to come in to bring their issues. We have to be mindful of the fact that we still have Th ese are complicated issues. I have to say this. I’m very a long way to go in order to bring this technology to glad that, at the end of the day, we can talk about all these everyone. We also have a long way to go to reach a point issues, and it’s other people who have to go and solve the where everybody has equal access to this kind of tech- problems. I’m delighted that the commissioners get to be nology, because they simply lack the resources or don’t the ones to go and do this. have the kind of incomes necessary to buy all of this Ultimately — and this has also been alluded to here — high-tech stuff . at the end of the day, the courts also have a great deal to I’d also like to just talk for a minute here about the fact say in this. Th is debate — about representation by popu- that…. I don’t think the member was being facetious in lation versus geographic requirements to have access to any way, because it is tight in here, and we have seen an MLA and for an MLA to be able to go and serve their changes happen here. But to try and suggest that we can’t constituents — at the end of the day, is going to end up, have more members in this House is very much pining or once again, in the Supreme Court. whining about a fi rst-world problem. If you look at this We see, no matter what, a demographic shift right chamber, you can see that there are bookshelves that can across Canada, away from rural Canada to the urban be removed and more seats put in. centres. Th is shift has been going on, certainly, for as If you look at the Mother of Parliaments and go to long as I’ve been living in this country. You see this hap- the United Kingdom, which…. At times, we all love to pening not just here. You see this happening in Australia. stand here and say: “Look at what they do in the United Th ere is a shift to urbanization that is ongoing. We can- Kingdom, the Mother of Parliaments.” We try to follow in not change that. their footsteps in large part. Your position, hon. Speaker, Even with technology, there is a shift for young people is something that is very historic and comes from the to want to go and live in urban centres. Th ey have access Mother of Parliaments. Our esteemed Clerk, sitting there to greater job opportunities. Th ey have access to greater in his chair, comes from the Mother of all Parliaments. educational opportunities. Th ey have access to cultural You’ll notice, if you ever watch parliament in Britain, events that take place in bigger cities that don’t happen in they long ago gave up the notion of having their own pri- smaller communities. Th at’s where they’re going. At the vate desks. Oh my goodness, what a luxury it is to have end of the day, this debate is going to continue and will our own private desk. Th ey gave that up a long time ago go back to the courts. and sit on benches. Th e Prime Minister of Britain sits on I want to take a moment to speak to the legislation that a bench, as do all of the ministers and everybody else was brought in to protect rural British Columbia. I heard who’s elected to the Mother of all Parliaments. I’m not a comment, from one member here, suggesting that be- suggesting that I’d rather give up this lovely desk for a cause I and others voted against that piece of legislation, bench, but I’m just suggesting that we’ve got a long way somehow we were giving up on rural B.C. and we didn’t to go before we can say that we can’t have more mem- really care about the fact that we represented a rural part bers in here. of British Columbia. Th at’s not the case at all. So I think that I certainly don’t want to see future What we were concerned about was that if a large boundary commissions being allowed willy-nilly to cre- swath of British Columbia was protected, it would invite ate more politicians because, as the member also alluded a court challenge, and it would then be something where to, it is costly to have more politicians, and the taxpayers the courts, the B.C. Civil Liberties Association or some would say that that’s not something they want. other body would immediately step forward and say: [1810] “Wait a second here. How can you have an independent But the taxpayers also want to have proper representa- commission, and then two-thirds of the province is pro- tion. If you end up with a densely populated urban cen- tected from having any changes?” Th at’s the motivation tre where an MLA is trying to service — I don’t know that got me to vote against that. I thought it would sim- — 75,000 constituents, and you have a rural MLA that is ply bring in a legal challenge. representing a large geographic area and only has 20,000 Of course, as someone who represents a rural constitu- citizens, at some point, the folks from the city centres ency, I want to see the ability of my constituents and all are going to say: “Wait a second here. I have the same re- northern and rural constituencies to be able to retain as sources as you do. I have 1.5 FTEs to manage my offi ce, many MLAs as possible. At the end of the day, having seen and I’m inundated with the kind of workload that I have.” what it’s like to do this work and to do it eff ectively, I rec- At some point, they’re going to say, “You know what? I ognize that we have to try and keep as many rural MLAs think we do need a couple more MLAs, especially in the as possible. Otherwise, it becomes untenable, frankly. urban areas, to take that population pressure off ” so that I think it’s true to say that the commission has done an their offi ces aren’t just going hair straight back all day incredible job. I think that bringing two more seats into long seeing constituents, when in a rural area we might the Legislature in the places that they have judged are 9776 British Columbia Debates Monday, October 26, 2015 worthy of them — one in Surrey and one in Richmond — Boundaries Commission. It wasn’t as though they had makes, absolutely, common sense. I don’t think anybody to travel to every community in the province. What they here could disagree with that. Prior to moving to Skeena did, very smartly, was have access points where people 20 years ago…. In fact, I’m coming up to my 20th anni- could use e-mail, could use Skype, could come in to versary of moving up north. I lived in Surrey for fi ve years meetings and make presentations even if they didn’t prior to moving to the beautiful town of Terrace and fi nd- live in that community or didn’t live in the community ing a diff erent way of life in northern B.C. where the Boundaries Commission was actually having [1815] public hearings. When I lived in Surrey, it was already one of the fastest- Obviously, they’ve saved a great deal of money in that growing communities in all of Canada. Since I’ve been process, and it bodes well for the fact that we can use this gone, 20 years later, Surrey has just absolutely exploded kind of new technology to save the taxpayers a whole in population to the extent where I think, at one time, in whack of money and still come up with a report that is a month there were more people moving to Surrey than not just fair but is seen to be fair by everybody here in any other city in all of Canada. I know that they’ve had to this House. build schools, and they haven’t been able to build schools I haven’t heard a single person here speak against this quickly enough for the kind of population growth that’s motion. I’ve heard a few members, obviously, a bit sad happened in an urban centre like Surrey. that there have been changes made where they have lost While they haven’t been able to build schools quick- parts of their constituencies. Th at has not really hap- ly enough for this population growth, in my commun- pened to me. I’m an MLA who had a part added in, and ity we were having to close schools because people were I’m very thankful it was, but I can understand that that leaving. Th is, again, speaks to the complexity of dealing would cause some concern. But by and large, people have with the challenges here around boundaries and the work stood in this House and spoken in favour of this commis- they have to do. sion and the report they’re bringing by. I think that, by and large, the commission has done an I’m hoping that when the legislation comes into the incredible job, and I think that they have been allowed to House in the next little while, we can debate that mov- and have recommended that they increase the number of ing forward and pass that with the unanimous support seats that go beyond the 25 percent standard deviation of this House. With that, I take my rest and give the fl oor that has been allowed previously. I’m hoping that there to somebody else. won’t be a challenge to that, at least not this time around, [1820] because at the end of the day, the ability for rural MLAs to do their job requires them to have no larger constitu- D. Barnett: On behalf of the constituents of Cariboo- encies than they already have. Chilcotin, I am proud to support this important bill. It If the commission decided to err on the other side is important because it is essential that every British and limit the number of ridings that have this deviation Columbian is represented fairly and eff ectively. Bill 42 that’s going to almost 50 percent, we would then have a does that. situation where some of the ridings in British Columbia B.C. has experienced signifi cant population growth would become so large and so remote that some people in its urban areas as people from other parts of Canada would never, ever get to see their MLA, and I just don’t and other parts of the world move here because they see think that is fair in any way. a bright future in our province. If passed, Bill 42 will re- I hope that even though we have a very large deviation, sult in two more ridings being created for the 2017 elec- we’re going to be able to pass this into legislation, that it tion, both in Metro Vancouver suburbs. will not be challenged in the courts and that, at least for Our rural regions, generally speaking, are not grow- this time around, we can then look forward to the next ing as quickly, but I am pleased that this bill ensures ten years with the map that has been brought forward. rural British Columbians will not lose representation. I wanted to comment around…. This has been al- Population inequality in the urban-rural divide is a fact luded to by others here. Th e commission had a diffi cult of life in the western world. It is a fact that urban and sub- job to do. Th ey had a budget just in excess of $4 million urban constituencies, on average, have more people than to do this. Th ey came in, I think, at around…. I think I rural ridings do. However, urban MLAs generally have an heard the Justice Minister say about $1.2 million. When easier time serving their constituents because the popu- you consider the amount of work that’s required to bring lation is concentrated in a much smaller area. in a new boundary map, and when you consider all the My riding of Cariboo-Chilcotin is one of those large people that need to be able to come and speak to the com- rural ridings with a smaller population. We have far- mission, it is quite extraordinary that they’ve come in so flung communities and several First Nations, plus a under budget, and I want to thank them for that. wealth of natural resources that are the backbone of the I think their ability to do this also speaks to the fact B.C. economy. It is about an eight-hour drive to get from that we have used technology so well in this particular Anahim Lake in the western side of my riding to Bridge Monday, October 26, 2015 British Columbia Debates 9777

Lake in the east. Th at is eight hours if the weather is good. like to thank the commission members for their diligent And you don’t stop. Th ese new boundaries have increased and hard work and all British Columbians who partici- my riding both in geography and population. pated in this very important process. We must remember that our riding boundaries must I am proud to speak for the interests of rural British serve the people that live there. I’m constantly told by Columbia. I ask all members, especially my colleagues on my constituents that rural interests are not understood the other side of the House who represent rural ridings, in places like Vancouver and Victoria. Th is needs to be to support this bill. taken into consideration when electoral boundaries are being discussed. D. Barnett moved adjournment of debate. Th is act preserves current ridings in the north, the Cariboo-Th ompson and the Columbia-Kootenay regions Motion approved. to ensure that citizens in less densely populated yet geo- graphically large districts can be eff ectively represented Personal Statement by their MLAs. Th e bottom line is that we need fair and eff ective representation for all British Columbians. In a CLARIFICATION OF COMMENTS province with B.C.’s geography, equal representation by MADE IN THE HOUSE population simply isn’t possible. There were no political motives or considerations Hon. T. Stone: Before I move adjournment here, I by our government in preparing this legislation. Th e would just like to correct the record with respect to re- Electoral Boundaries Commission Act requires that marks I made during an exchange earlier today during there be three members: a judge or a retired judge of question period. the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeal, the Chief During that exchange, I stated: “I do not delete infor- Electoral Offi cer appointed under the Election Act and mation that is transitory in nature.” Th is was the oppos- a third member recommended by the Speaker of the ite of what I intended to convey. It was my intention to House in consultation with the Premier and the Leader state: “I do not delete information unless it is transitory of the Opposition. in nature.” Th e Electoral Boundaries Commission undertook a Hon. Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to take this public consultation in March through May of this year and opportunity to correct the record. considered the many comments gathered. Th e commis- sion’s task was to balance demographic representation with Hon. T. Stone moved adjournment of the House. geography, which is not an easy task in some areas. Our government respects the commission’s proposal and the Motion approved. independent, non-partisan work they carry out and has proposed legislation that adopts their recommendations. Madame Speaker: Th e House, at its rising, stands ad- Th e commission held many consultations across the journed until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning. province on the proposals — 44 public hearings across the province and dozens of written submissions. I would Th e House adjourned at 6:25 p.m.

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