Second Session, 39th Parliament
official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly
(hansard)
Thursday, April 22, 2010 Afternoon Sitting Volume 15, Number 5
the honourable bill barisoff, speaker
ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)
LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC
Second Session, 39th Parliament
SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General and Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Ben Stewart Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Randy Hawes Minister of Environment...... Hon. Barry Penner Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. John Yap Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Labour...... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Iain Black Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Shirley Bond
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
Leader of the Official Opposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Claire Trevena Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING
Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... John van Dongen Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... John Les Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Terry Lake Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... John Rustad Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... Ron Cantelon James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Pat Pimm Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Stephanie Cadieux Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Kash Heed Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart
Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1
CONTENTS
Thursday, April 22, 2010 Afternoon Sitting
Page
Routine Business
Introductions by Members...... 4721
Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 4723 Bill M203 — Cosmetic Pesticide and Carcinogen Control Act, 2010 R. Fleming
Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 4723 Earth Day R. Fleming Environmental initiatives in West Vancouver–Sea to Sky area J. McIntyre Alexandra Morton and walk for wild salmon C. Trevena Alzheimer Society of B.C. L. Reid Community Volunteer Services for Seniors D. Thorne Support for crime victims and violence prevention D. Hayer
Oral Questions...... 4726 Reporting on government and Crown corporation Olympic Games tickets C. James Hon. M. McNeil J. Horgan M. Farnworth S. Simpson Annual facilities grants for school districts and carbon neutrality R. Austin Hon. M. MacDiarmid School district carbon offset costs and energy retrofit funding R. Fleming Hon. M. MacDiarmid Surrey school district portable use and carbon offset costs H. Bains Hon. M. MacDiarmid School district carbon offset costs and energy retrofit funding N. Macdonald Hon. M. MacDiarmid
Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right)...... 4730 D. Horne
Petitions...... 4730 D. McRae M. Sather
Standing Order 81.1...... 4731 Schedule for debate on Bill 9 Hon. M. de Jong Orders of the Day
Second Reading of Bills...... 4731 Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act (continued) On the amendment (continued) J. Brar Hon. B. Penner G. Gentner Hon. I. Black S. Fraser P. Pimm D. Routley R. Sultan
Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room
Committee of Supply...... 4761 Estimates: Ministry of Forests and Range Hon. P. Bell N. Macdonald M. Karagianis G. Coons K. Corrigan M. Sather J. Horgan 4721
THURSDAY, APRIL 22, 2010 from the Peace River Regional District is the rep to UBCM from that area. Finally, Mayor Sharon Gaetz of The House met at 1:35 p.m. Chilliwack is the director at large with UBCM. A great group of people — both sides of the House enjoy work- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] ing with them. Please help me make them feel welcome.
Routine Business R. Austin: I'd like to introduce two guests in the pre- cinct today. The first is no stranger to this place, and that Introductions by Members is Lois Boone, who is a former member and minister here. She is currently the vice-chair of the Prince George Hon. P. Bell: It's not very often in my life that I have school district. been brought to tears, but that happened last Friday. The second guest is ValentineC rawford, also a school However, they were tears of joy, not tears of sadness, and board trustee from Prince George. They are both here the individual responsible for that, at least in large part, to attend the B.C. School Trustees Association meetings is joining us today in the gallery. that are happening over the next couple of days. Will the The event was to celebrate the sale and transaction House please join me in making them welcome. of a pulp mill in Mackenzie that will add $300 million in gross domestic product to the province of British Hon. M. MacDiarmid: I would like to welcome many Columbia, $20 million in direct taxation, huge benefits B.C. school trustees who are with us in the House today, to the local and regional economy. But most importantly, here for their annual general meeting and joining us. it will put 240 people back to work in Mackenzie — dir- I would also like, particularly, to welcome two very ect jobs — families that can stay in the community as a good friends from Trail, where I used to be a family doc- result of this individual's very hard work. tor — two hard-working trustees who are here with us. This was a task of unbelievable size. Many times I was delighted to meet and speak with them earlier to- throughout the process it nearly failed, but never for a day. They've already been introduced, but I would like single second did this individual waver or believe that it to introduce them again: Lorraine Manning and Toni was not to come to fruition. I would ask that the House Driutti. May the House please, again, make them all please not just make very welcome but also pass on a warmly welcome. significant show of our thanks to Tanner Elton, who joins us here today. A. Dix: I'm pleased to welcome, on behalf of the mem- ber for Vancouver-Kensington, grade 11 students from N. Macdonald: My colleague from West Kootenay has Sir Charles Tupper Secondary School today, along with asked me to welcome two school trustees that are here parents and teachers. I'd like to ask everyone to make from school district 20, Kootenay-Columbia. They're them welcome. Toni Driutti and Lorraine Manning. Will the House join me in making them welcome. Hon. N. Yamamoto: Today in the members' gallery we have a very special guest from Indonesia. I'm pleased Hon. B. Bennett: Two introductions today. First of all, to introduce Mr. Bambang Hieandrasto, the new consul my constituency assistant, Jennifer Osmar, who is, after general of the Republic of Indonesia at Vancouver. I had nine months, the best constituency assistant I've had the pleasure of meeting with the consul general during in nine years, which is saying something. Her mother, the Paralympics when he first arrived in Vancouver. Lucille, is here and Erdie Poitress from Kelowna. Please [1340] help me make them feel welcome. They're in the gallery Today he is meeting with quite a number of ministers somewhere. in Victoria for what I'm hoping will be very productive Also, it's my pleasure to welcome several members of discussions to further our good relationships between the UBCM executive who were here. They're here all week our two jurisdictions. Please join me in giving the con- in Victoria doing various meetings. A lot of the members sul general a very warm welcome to British Columbia last night attended a reception that UBCM hosted. and to the House. First of all, there's Coun. Barb Steele from Surrey, who is the second vice-president of UBCM. There's the mayor H. Lali: I have a couple of introductions as well. First of Quesnel, Mary Sjostrom, who is third VP. Coun. Tim of all, I would like to join my colleague from Skeena in Stevenson is there. He's the Vancouver rep to UBCM. Al welcoming a former caucus and cabinet colleague and Richmond, chair of the regional district in the Cariboo, the former Deputy Premier for the province of British is the electoral area rep for UBCM. Columbia in the 1990s. Of course, when she spoke, Director Grace McGregor is the representative from everybody listened. That's obviously Lois Boone, sitting the Kootenay-Boundary area. Chair Karen Goodings up in the galleries. That's my first introduction. 4722 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
Secondly, one of the folks here with the UBCM exec- companied by special guests from Brazil: Marcelo utive is the mayor of one of my eight municipalities Guancino Persicotti, Vivian Iark, Anita Castro Menezes in Fraser-Nicola, and that's the mayor of Clinton, Mr. Xavier, Leonardo Jianoti and Leandro Dalalibera Fonseca. Roland Stanke. He's sitting right up there. Would the Would we please make them all most welcome. House please welcome him to Victoria. Hon. J. Yap: I have two introductions today. In the R. Sultan: In the galleries today is a constituent, gallery today are Monika Marcovici and Sonny Wong of Mauro Chiesa, who has had a distinguished career as the Board of Change. The Board of Change is an inclu- a senior investment officer with the World Bank in sive organizational network that exists to develop and Washington, D.C. foster a new economic model that values the pursuit of Born and educated here in British Columbia, he sustainability equally with the pursuit of profit. I met served as a senior financial adviser to governments in both of them at the recent Globe 2010 trade show and the financing of port power, telecommunications and conference in Vancouver, and I ask all members of the water system projects around the world, including House to give them a warm welcome. Panama, Brazil, Senegal, Botswana, the Philippines and [1345] Morocco senior investment officer with the WorldB ank in Washington, D.C., and now he's come home. Would P. Pimm: I'd like to introduce a lady that's al- you please make him welcome. ready been introduced once, but this lady deserves to be introduced more than once — one of the great J. Horgan: I hope this isn't a career-limiting intro- ladies of our region, the chairman of the Peace River duction following on the Minister of Forests. I'd like to regional district, chairman of the North Central acknowledge my friend Tanner Elton, who I met when Local Government Association and member of the he was trying to revive rail transport on Vancouver UBCM committee. I'd like a warm welcome for Karen Island. Now, after the great job he's done in Mackenzie, Goodings, please. I'm hopeful he's going to be coming back to the Island to get that train running in the right direction. L. Reid: My niece has joined us today, Michelle Ramsell, and her lovely friend Shannon is with her. I'd Mr. Speaker: Minister of Health. ask the House to make them welcome.
Interjection. D. Hayer: I would also like to welcome Barbara Steele, our city councillor and second vice-president of UBCM, Mr. Speaker: Minister of Aboriginal Relations — who is my constituent. She is known in Surrey as one sorry. My mistake. Question period hasn't started. of the hardest-working councillors there. She's with her friend today, Colin Campbell, who is coming here to Hon. G. Abbott: I was having a brief nightmare there see question period for the first time. Please make them for a moment. I thought I may have been restored as very welcome. Minister of Health. That indeed would not be welcome, given the remarkable job that my friend is doing. D. Barnett: I, too, would like to welcome the chair I leap to my feet for this purpose, Mr. Speaker. In the of the Cariboo regional district, Director Al Richmond, gallery today is a constituent from Shuswap, the chair from area G, one of the prettiest areas in the Cariboo and trustee of school district 83, North Okanagan- Chilcotin. I welcome him today as a member of the Shuswap, Bobbi Johnson. She's doing a great job, and I'd UBCM executive and ask the House to join with me. like the House to please make her welcome. D. McRae: I would like the House to welcome S. Chandra Herbert: I rise in this House to welcome Stephen Borley and Danika Village, two teachers from a constituent of mine, a former member of the House, the Comox Valley who are participating in the B.C. former minister of the House, though I don't think he Teachers Institute on Parliamentary Democracy. was a minister of health. I'd like to welcome city coun- cillor Tim Stevenson. Would you please make him very Hon. M. de Jong: The strength of any profession is the welcome. talents of the students that come along. At the Attorney General's ministry we are very fortunate in attracting G. Hogg: On a day when we have many auspicious some of the best and the brightest. guests visiting, I'd like to add to that list. We have from They are here today. They are a group of articling stu- the White Rock Rotary Club three hard-working, dedi- dents who are participating in a conference that involves cated, committed and brilliant people — they tell me: the Law Clerk, Jennifer Furry and Carol Anne Rolf from Don Jones, Peter Short and Russ Clinton. They are ac- the government. Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4723
They areB rian Dybwad, Shannon Davis, Mark Myhre, pesticides. Only provincial legislation can accomplish Justin Mason, Dea Lloyd, Tina Parbhakar, and they are this. also accompanied by, from legislative counsel, Corinne Our society faces a huge potential cancer burden Swystun. I hope all members will make these talented from exposure to hundreds of known and possible hu- young people feel welcome here today. man carcinogens from thousands of new chemicals that Speaking of the best and the brightest, the Pacific have not been tested for their cancer potential. Christian School is here from Abbotsford — 12 grade [1350] 8 students accompanied by 18 adults. They are enjoy- The New York Academy of Sciences found that ing their tour, looking forward to question period, and I women exposed to pesticides as children are twice as hope members will make them feel welcome. likely to have breast cancer later in their lives. Research Finally, joining us in the gallery are three individuals by the Harvard School of Public Health linked some — Wendy Neufeld, Terry Voth, and Ken Funk. They are pesticides to lowered intelligence, behaviour disorders, here not just to participate and watch the proceedings autism, ADHD and asthma in children. Cosmetic pesti- but to visibly articulate their support for hospice and the cides also put at risk our food supply, and new research Abbotsford Hospice Society. I know they're looking for- links pesticide runoff to the decline in B.C.'s wild sal- ward to question period. It may not be the highlight of mon returns. the day. The highlight probably occurred earlier when Much of the pollution of our environment can be pre- they were landing in a small aircraft and the button con- vented. For children and pregnant women, there are no trolling the landing gear came out of the panel. They've safe levels of exposure to chemicals such as endocrine enjoyed their time. I hope members will make them feel disrupters and neurotoxins. welcome as well. In protecting our young children, this legislation offers the promise, over time, of lowered cost of deliv- Introduction and ering health care services by reducing chronic disease. First Reading of Bills The legislation takes important steps to protect human health and our environment. The time for government Bill M203 — Cosmetic Pesticide and to take strong legislative action is now. Carcinogen Control Act, 2010 I would move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day at the next sitting of the House the day after R. Fleming presented a bill intituled Cosmetic Pesti- today. cide and Carcinogen Control Act, 2010. Bill M203, Cosmetic Pesticide and Carcinogen Con- R. Fleming: I move that the Cosmetic Pesticide and trol Act, 2010, introduced, read a first time and ordered Carcinogen Control Act be read first time now. to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Motion approved. Statements R. Fleming: Introduction of this bill enables our (Standing Order 25B) province to join other provinces representing nearly 20 million Canadians that ban the use of toxic cosmetic EARTH DAY pesticides that threaten our environment, our water- ways, children, pets and personal heath. R. Fleming: April 22, Earth Day, is the largest, most cele- The legislation is consistent with provincial legislative brated environmental event worldwide. Today more than reforms urged by the Union of B.C. Municipalities, the six million Canadians will join a billion people in over 170 Canadian Cancer Society, the Canadian Association of countries in staging events and projects to address local Physicians for the Environment, Toxic Free Canada and environmental issues, and today nearly every school child the David Suzuki Foundation. The bill is also consist- in Canada will take part in an earth day activity. ent with recommendations made by the World Health Environmental challenges to the sustainability of Organization's International Agency for Research on our planet are immense. Around the globe national Cancer. economies remain tied to large-scale daily actions that Mr. Speaker, 29 local governments across B.C. gov- pollute and degrade the fragile environment that hu- erning millions of our citizens have enacted bylaws to mans and wildlife depend on to live. Earth Day 2010 ban the sale of cosmetic pesticides, but these bylaws provides the opportunity for all of us to identify solu- are ineffective because they lack the authority to gov- tions, to take positive action and to achieve results that ern the retail sale of easily obtained environmental will shift our societies from the present risk of runaway toxins. The Community Charter does not give com- climate change to a green, low-carbon, sustainable way munities the legislative authority to ban the sale of of living. 4724 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
This year Earth Day turns 40. First launched as an A number of local councils in the riding have adopted environmental awareness event in the United States in leading-edge environmental strategies. For example, 1970, April 22 is celebrated as the birth of the environ- the resort municipality of Whistler has been making mental movement. Earth Day has and continues to be great strides with their Whistler 2020 initiative, which a powerful catalyst for change. The first Earth Day was focuses on a long-term, comprehensive, community-de- spearheaded by Governor Nelson of Wisconsin, and veloped action plan. Whistler was also winner of one of it involved 20 million participants in teach-ins that our government's seven inaugural Green City Awards at addressed decades of environmental pollution. The the UBCM conference in 2007. event inspired the U.S. Congress to pass clean air and It's not just the residents helping to make a change. My water acts and establish the Environmental Protection riding has a disproportionate share of green power pro- Agency. jects up and running and just approved in B.C. Hydro's In 1990 two million Canadians joined 200 million recent clean call that deliver clean electricity to power people in celebrating the first International Earth Day. our province. That global event brought pressure on heads of states to To my constituents, elected officials and numerous later convene the UN Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro organizations, congratulations on a concerted effort to to address climate change and the loss of endangered work together to halt the effects of climate change. species. In Canada, Earth Day is celebrated in every commun- ALEXANDRA MORTON ity, from large public events — including Victoria's Earth AND WALK FOR WILD SALMON Walk this weekend — to the thousands of smaller events that are staged by schools; employee groups, including C. Trevena: On this Earth Day I would like to talk here in our public sector in British Columbia; and com- about one of my constituents who has been an environ- munity organizations. I encourage local residents to join mental activist for many years. Alexandra Morton is me at local events this weekend. marking Earth Day by starting an epic journey. She'll leave her home in Sointula on Malcolm Island and fol- ENVIRONMENTAL INITIATIVES IN low the path of the wild salmon on migration. She plans WEST VANCOUVER–SEA TO SKY AREA to finish the journey in this place on Mother's Day. She'll be walking with Molina Dawson, a 14-year-old J. McIntyre: As noted, today indeed is Earth Day, and from Kingcome Inlet. They'll be joined along the route in over 170 countries people will be taking part in events by others who want to save wild salmon. First Nations and projects to recognize sustainability and to encour- are bestowing a blessing on her at the Nimpkish River. age greener living. There will be community celebrations on Quadra Island I'm fortunate to represent one of the greenest rid- and in Campbell River in my constituency, and more ings in the province. From West Vancouver to north of Pemberton and Mount Currie, the residents of West as she moves south down the Island. She'll be joined by Vancouver–Sea to Sky have proven by their actions that others who will migrate along with her, walking from they take seriously the challenge to change their actions the west coast to meet up with her. to help mitigate the effects of climate change. We just Ms. Morton has almost single-handedly kept the hosted what is being termed "the greenest games ever." issue of wild salmon at the centre of people's atten- Recently VANOC's John Furlong recognized Jim tion, a place that such a cornerstone of our ecosystem Godfrey, who was Whistler's former administrator and deserves. Without wild salmon we know we would not executive director of its 2010 games office, for his work have our abundant forests or our healthy wildlife. There in ensuring that sustainability was in the forefront of the is a reason why salmon have long been central to the life, games' values. This commitment resulted in a number of survival and culture of First Nations. innovative programs, crowning us as the greenest games She has been challenged and vilified by people who ever. Now that legacy and challenge has been passed on question her judgment or her science, but she is this to other Olympic venues. year to be awarded an honorary doctorate of science by During Earth Hour on March 27 three communities Simon Fraser University for her research on sea lice, and in my riding — Bowen Island, Pemberton and Whistler her research has moved the debate forward. — were in the top five in British Columbia, where resi- Her actions at the B.C. Supreme Court have moved dents showed their support for the fight against climate the governance of aquaculture to the federal level. But change by not using electricity for one hour. Earth Hour for Ms. Morton, this is not far enough. The reason for is an annual global event hosted by the World Wildlife this walk is to show that the missing Fraser sockeye and Fund and sponsored provincially by B.C. Hydro to cre- other disappearing salmon stocks will not be forgotten, ate awareness of energy conservation. nor will the central place that wild salmon have in our [1355] ecosystem. Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4725
ALZHEIMER SOCIETY OF B.C. offers outreach for frail, isolated and homebound seniors. L. Reid: Today I would like to dedicate my remarks to [1400] Alice Mann, who is an extraordinary caregiver. This registered charity's programs include the Shop by Dementia is not an illness we can ignore. A progres- Phone program where volunteers take grocery orders, sive disease, it exacts its toll on caregivers, family and do the shopping and then deliver. They have a visiting friends. Dementia affects more and more people as our program which matches volunteers with lonely, home- population ages. Over 70,000 people live with dementia bound seniors. in British Columbia, and approximately 15,000 develop CVS also helps low-income seniors who have a com- dementia each year. Often thought of as an older per- puter by providing a volunteer to help them connect son's disease, many are surprised to learn that well over to the Internet and use their e-mail, keeping isolated 10,000 people are under the age of 65. seniors in touch with the outside world. CVS acts as a The Alzheimer Society of B.C., established in 1981 referral agency with approximately 1,500 calls per year. by a small group of caregivers, is dedicated to helping They also run a recreation program for those with mem- people affected by dementia to live well despite the diag- ory loss. nosis, building confidence and skills. The society also CVS has kept the costs of these many services to a works to improve dementia care and to raise awareness minimum. Small donations from the community have of the disease. It works to erase the stigma and to secure helped, but CVS has primarily been funded by Fraser funds for support and research. Health. Two staff members and more than 195 vol- Today the society has grown and maintains 18 resource unteers provided these services to approximately 220 centres around British Columbia where local residents seniors every year for the past 13 years. obtain information on issues such as understanding the Today I'm sad to announce that this program will disease and how it might progress, skill-building for close on June 11 because the funder, Fraser Health, has positive caregiving and useful information such as deal- decided to no longer fund it. This is the third valuable ing with the sensitive issue of driving cessation. volunteer service to be lost to the Tri-Cities in recent The society offers support groups for both caregivers months because of funding cuts. Today during Volunteer and those who have dementia. I know of one early-stage Week I would like to once again and for the last time sa- group that meets every two weeks over breakfast so that lute these hundreds of volunteers and thank them for all people can share their issues around the life-changing their wonderful work. They have made our community experience. a better place to live, and we sure will miss them. A provincewide dementia help plan is available to en- hance the availability of support and information. First SUPPORT FOR CRIME VICTIMS Link is a new program introduced by the Alzheimer AND VIOLENCE PREVENTION Society. First Link is an early intervention service de- signed to connect individuals and families affected by D. Hayer: I rise today to speak of rights — the right Alzheimer's disease or a related dementia with services to feel safe in our communities, the right to live, work, and support as soon as possible after diagnosis. Formal learn and play without fear. British Columbia has pro- referrals from physicians and health professionals al- claimed this week as the Victims of Crime Awareness low for proactive contact with individuals and their Week and the Prevention of Violence Against Women families. Week. TheA lzheimer Society is committed to expanding this Ever since I was first elected in this House — in fact, program throughout British Columbia so that families for many years before — I have spoken out that the and caregivers have the tools to more effectively man- rights of victims should be paramount over the rights of age their long journey with this disease. I recognize and those of criminals, that rights of the victims should be acknowledge the good work of the Alzheimer Society more important than those of the criminals. All victims of British Columbia and their dedication to improv- of crime and abuse deserve to be heard, respected and ing the lives of people coping with dementias in British protected from future violence, and every victim counts. Columbia. Every child, man and woman counts no matter what the circumstances. COMMUNITY VOLUNTEER SERVICES People matter. People's rights and freedoms are vital FOR SENIORS to the fabric of this nation, Canada, and in the opin- ion of law-abiding individuals, criminals' rights should D. Thorne: Today, during Volunteer Week in B.C., be diminished greatly when they commit acts against I would like to acknowledge the volunteers who have others. made the Community Volunteer Services for Seniors This week across this great province, we recognize a valuable wellness program in the Tri-Cities. CVS the right of Canadians and victims in activities that will 4726 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
focus on raising awareness of services available to victims C. James: It's pretty clear that this minister doesn't of crime and enforce the shared belief that every victim have any kind of handle on what's going on with tax- matters. This government supports more than 160 police payer dollars spent on the Olympics. and community-based victim services programs across I would be happy to share the blacked-out document British Columbia to help raise awareness. from B.C. Hydro that doesn't, in fact, include any in- Prevention of Violence Against Women Week is also formation in the document. Hundreds of thousands of being recognized. More than 250 programs provide taxpayer dollars spent at a time when this government supports to women and children fleeing violence. We is cutting funding for school playgrounds, child care, all must work together to support each other and pre- education. vent violence to make our communities a safer, better Last week when we asked the minister if Crown place to live. I urge everyone in this House to support corporations would be included, the minister refused, the events in your communities this week in recognition saying: "We're just including information on govern- of Victims of Crime Awareness Week and Prevention of ment tickets, not Crown corporations." Well, Crown Crime Against Women Week. corporations are taxpayer dollars. Again, my question is to the minister. Nothing short Oral Questions of full disclosure will satisfy the questions surrounding money spent on Olympic tickets, so will the minister REPORTING ON GOVERNMENT AND commit today to including Crown corporations in the CROWN CORPORATION report coming forward? OLYMPIC GAMES TICKETS Hon. M. McNeil: As I said in estimates just this week C. James: Last year when reports of taxpayer dollars and I have said before in this House, the government has spent on luxury suites at GM Place became a political committed to providing a comprehensive report on the scandal for the B.C. Liberals, the minister promised this tickets purchased by this government within our host- House that there would be a full reporting on taxpayer- ing and ticketing strategy. We committed to doing this paid Olympic tickets. by late spring. We anticipate it will probably be ready in Here's what the minister said on October 21 last year: the next couple of weeks, and we intend to deliver on "I've said in this House…there will be a full accounting that. of each and every ticket used." But there's still no sign of that report. The secrecy continues; the confusion is Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a fur- getting worse. FOI'd documents that have been received back from B.C. Hydro show that taxpayers are still being ther supplemental. denied details on who attended. A request was made — a simple request — for who C. James: It's very clear that this minister just doesn't hosted and who attended events paid for by B.C. Hydro. get what full disclosure means. Taxpayer dollars are tax- The response came back with page after page entirely payer dollars, whether they're spent in a ministry or a blacked out. So much for access to information. Crown corporation, and the public deserves to know [1405] where those dollars were spent. My question is to the minister. Why are taxpayers still We know that B.C. Hydro paid at least $600,000, B.C. being denied information on who used Olympic tickets, Lottery Corporation $400,000 and ICBC $400,000 for and will the minister tell this House what's behind the luxury suites, using taxpayer dollars. black ink on those documents? So I again ask this minister: when will she put an end to the secrecy? When will she agree to a full account- Hon. M. McNeil: You know, the government has com- ing of all taxpayer dollars used, who went to what event mitted to a comprehensive report on the government's and when? Olympic and Paralympic ticketing and hosting strategy. We've committed to that by late spring, but I anticipate Hon. M. McNeil: The member opposite refers to it will probably be ready within the next couple of weeks, the Crown corporations, who were sponsors, by the and we are going to be delivering on that. way. They have their own reporting requirements and But the Crown corporations have their own reporting individual boards they report to. In addition, it's my requirements and their own individual boards they re- understanding that much of the information she's ask- port to, and I understand much of that information is ing for now is already on their individual websites. already on the website. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4727
J. Horgan: "Complete and full accounting of each and payers are looking at 29 percent rate increases on their every ticket. I've said in this House, as my colleague" — hydro bills. B.C. Hydro has done the work. They've the member beside her — "has said, that there will be a blocked it off at someone's request. full accounting…." Will the minister — again, you may only be a minis- ter for a short while — use that authority today to get Interjections. B.C. Hydro to release full and comprehensive informa- tion and do it now? Mr. Speaker: Member, just sit down for a second. Members. Members. Hon. M. McNeil: As I explained before, the Crown Continue, Member. corporations have their own reporting requirements. It's my understanding that most of this information, includ- J. Horgan: I'll finish the quote, in case those over ing who they gave the tickets to, is on their individual on the other side didn't get it when the minister made websites, and I encourage the member opposite to go it. "The distribution of whatever Olympic tickets are on line. touched by government will be fully accounted for." That was back in October. M. Farnworth: This government committed in this So the minister is telling us that Crown corporations House to full accountability on every ticket that touched are not part of government. We received a freedom-of- the hand of government, and that includes Crown cor- information request dated April 15 that has all of the porations. The public doesn't believe that hiding behind information available to the minister and her colleagues gallons of whiteout is transparent or accountable. to release to the public, except it's redacted. It's blacked Will the minister stand up in this House and com- out. mit that Crown corporations will be included in this [1410] report and we will know that Crown corporations were So my question is a simple one. While the minister not used as a ticket slush fund for ministers to attend still has some authority as a cabinet minister, this week, Olympic events? why doesn't she do the right thing and ensure that all tickets touched by pieces of government — whether Hon. M. McNeil: As I've said, again, there will be a full they be ministries, ministers, Liberal MLAs or Crown accountability of the tickets purchased by the Olympic corporations — are fully accounted for? Games Secretariat. There will be one, and I encourage the members opposite to wait until they see it. At that Hon. M. McNeil: As I've said before, we are com- time, if they have questions, then we can continue the mitted to releasing a report on the cost of the hosting discussion. activities and the ticket allocations that were purchased But just as the members opposite were talking about by the government's Olympic Games Secretariat, and the Olympic Games and not being very successful and we will have a full report. As you can appreciate and as panicked before…. Again, we hosted the most success- I'm sure many can appreciate, this was the most major ful Olympic Games yet. I encourage them to continue undertaking this province has ever done — the Winter to wait. Olympic Games. Not only were the Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games the most successful games in history, Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. they were also the most complex event that the province has ever hosted. M. Farnworth: Not good enough, Minister. Not good We are committed to the report. As I said, the report enough. will probably be out within the next couple of weeks, The minister said in estimates…. and I encourage the members opposite to wait and see the report at that time. Interjections.
Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Continue, Member. J. Horgan: B.C. Hydro expends… [1415]
Interjections. M. Farnworth: The minister stated in estimates that ministers could be forced to provide the information. Mr. Speaker: Members. Well, ministers shouldn't have to be forced to provide information. They should be required to provide infor- J. Horgan: …hundreds of thousands of dollars for mation that they committed to in this House. Giving back friends and insiders of the B.C. Liberal Party, while rate- blacked-out FOIs is not accountable or transparent. 4728 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
So once again to the minister: will she commit to en- Will she make that list available, including the Crowns? sure that Crown corporations, every single one of them, If not, she's broken her promise. will be tabled in this House as to how those tickets were used? Hon. M. McNeil: Again, the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games was the largest event ever Interjections. hosted in this province, and it was a tremendous success. In addition to being successful, it was a very complex Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat for a second. series of events — not just sporting events but other Members. Members on both sides of the House, there events. should be an element of respect when the question is be- I encourage the members opposite to wait for the ing asked and an element of respect when the question report, which will be detailed and will be coming out is being answered. within the next couple of weeks, until they pass their judgment. Hon. M. McNeil: What I will commit to, as I have in October and I've continued to commit to, is that we ANNUAL FACILITIES GRANTS FOR SCHOOL will have a full accounting of the detailed report on the DISTRICTS AND CARBON NEUTRALITY government's Olympic and Paralympic hosting and ticketing strategy. It will be complete with who used what R. Austin: Last year this government took away all — MLAs and what ministers went to which events. the money that school districts used to upgrade their buildings, a $110 million cut. This year school districts S. Simpson: The minister made a commitment that are only receiving half as much for facilities grants as all information on who got tickets and who used them they received in 2008. would be made public. The minister has said that she [1420] will be transparent on this. There's no transparency if My question is to the Minister of Education. How she excludes $1.4 million worth of tickets from Crown are schools supposed to become more energy-efficient corporations. Clearly, this is another broken promise by when this government continues gutting their facilities the Liberals to not provide this information — another grants? broken promise. British Columbians have a right to know who went Hon. M. MacDiarmid: As the member opposite is well to the games on their dime, including people who went aware and as he has actually acknowledged, very clearly through Crown corporations. Will the minister keep her we have increased education funding this year. There is promise and release a detailed list, including the Crown a total of $110 million available to school districts in an- corporations? nual facilities grants as well as a number of other grants they can take advantage of as we go forward with carbon Hon. M. McNeil: Again, I will, as I have in the past, neutrality, which is of enormous importance to British commit to a comprehensive report on the government's Columbians everywhere in this province. Olympic and Paralympic hosting and ticketing strategy, as we promised. It should be released within the next Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. couple of weeks. It will have a detailed report on who used these tickets. R. Austin: It's correct the facilities grant has been re- Crown corporations and the ones you're talking about stored, but over two years, not one. So it's still a cut of that were sponsors of the Olympic Games have their 50 percent. own reporting requirements, and I understand much of This government's decision to eliminate facilities that information is already on the website. grants last year left school districts helpless to improve energy efficiency and reduce their carbon footprints. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Now, according to Susan Skinner, chair of the North Vancouver school district, calculating carbon will "def- S. Simpson: The Crown corporations might have initely increase administrative costs." their own reporting authority, but the bottom line is Again to the Minister of Education: why doesn't this that this minister and this B.C. Liberal government are government get serious about protecting the environ- responsible to the people of British Columbia to tell ment by fully restoring facilities grants to schools so they them what money was spent. This minister has that can invest in energy efficiency and carbon reduction? responsibility. Maybe it's because she thinks her job is done now that the Olympics are behind us, but it's Hon. M. MacDiarmid: It is very clear — something not. She has that responsibility, including the Crown on Earth Day but every day of the year — that we owe corporations. it to our children and our grandchildren to make sure Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4729
that we're working toward a cleaner environment and Hon. M. MacDiarmid: It's certainly interesting to be carbon neutrality. preached at by an opposition that didn't have a plan for Every school district in this province signed on to the energy or the environment. the climate action charter. They were aware that in re- School districts around this province are work- turn for this, they would receive their carbon tax rebates ing hard in this area — upgrading. They have multiple in full, which they will. Not only that, they've already sources of revenue. We've been working with them. received $800,000, and by the spring of 2011 they will We've been helping them to access different kinds of receive about $7 million in carbon tax revenues, which funding, including…. can be used for projects in their schools that will help to pay for energy upgrades. Interjections.
SCHOOL DISTRICT CARBON OFFSET COSTS Hon. M. MacDiarmid: Mr. Speaker, the important AND ENERGY RETROFIT FUNDING thing is that we must address the environment, and the members opposite are well aware of that. We have to pay R. Fleming: Carbon offsets for B.C. school districts attention to this. We have a plan, and we'll continue to this year will cost $6.3 million, and they will be paid for work with school districts and take care of the children, out of operating budgets. Incredibly, under the carbon the students in this province. offset regulation, schools can't apply to the fund to retro- fit their own schools and actually lower their carbon SURREY SCHOOL DISTRICT PORTABLE USE emissions. Instead, the money flows from our schools AND CARBON OFFSET COSTS to private companies like Lafarge cement and Whistler's Westin ski and spa resort. H. Bains: This year the Surrey school board is being How can the Education Minister justify forcing dis- forced to add 20 more energy-inefficient portables to tricts that are laying off teachers, that are closing schools, hundreds that actually crowd our Surrey school grounds. that are cancelling their own energy retrofit programs to Not only are they forced to pay $2 million out of the pay for private projects like these? operating money for these portables, they are forced to come up with more than half a million dollars to calcu- Hon. M. MacDiarmid: The province is providing late carbon and to buy carbon offsets mandated by this school districts around this province with $10 million to government. upgrade their heating and cooling systems, which is go- My question to the minister is this. Why doesn't ing to realize an efficiency gain in energy of 46 percent. this government do the right thing, take real action to The health and safety of our students is important, protect the environment by putting Surrey children in and it isn't just in schools. It is the overall environment real classrooms rather than in these energy-inefficient of this program. That is why we have taken leader- portables? ship which has made us renowned around the world — leadership like the carbon tax, leadership like our pos- Hon. M. MacDiarmid: It's interesting. One of the ition on reducing our greenhouse gases. We know the things that we never hear from the opposition, which we members opposite were against that, but we're in favour never hear any acknowledgment of, is our investment of those changes. in schools. And it is certainly true that in Surrey even now we're investing $50 million in new schools. Over Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. the last ten years we've invested more than $1.7 billion, and each of these schools is energy-efficient to the high- R. Fleming: The minister knows that the Pacific est standards. Carbon Trust actually gets its money from cash-starved What's also true is that the NDP have opposed every school districts, all of whom are in deficit this year, but single major environmental initiative that we've put prohibits green investment going back into the thou- in place since 2001. They voted against the carbon tax. sands of school buildings across British Columbia. They voted against cap-and-trade. They voted against There are other jurisdictions that do it differently. The the funding for LiveSmart B.C. We are committed. U.K. — they allow school offsets to be pooled to then be used to lower the actual carbon footprints of their Interjections. school buildings. That makes sense. Again to the minister: why are the B.C. Liberals pro- Mr. Speaker: Members. hibiting school boards from investing their offset dollars The member has a supplemental. in projects that would actually lower the carbon foot- print of our entire school system here in B.C.? H. Bains: Answers we get from this minister today [1425] and for the weeks in the past are a despicable display of 4730 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
arrogance and contempt for our trustees and parents by school districts — something that is in the best interests this minister. The minimum she could do is be upfront of students and the province. with those parents and trustees and say: "Look, we're not giving you money, because we used that money Interjections. to pay for the ministers' and Liberal MLAs' Olympic tickets." Mr. Speaker: Members. The money that the Surrey school district is spending Just wait, Member. on carbon offsets and new portables could pay up to 35 The member has a supplemental. teachers, and not a penny of that money helps the Surrey school district reduce their carbon footprint. N. Macdonald: I'm anxious to go. Let's use an ex- So my question again is to the minister. Does the ample for the minister. Elkford Secondary School could Education Minister really think that it makes sense to not replace their furnace because at the last minute, as send funding from the cash-strapped school system to the minister will remember, facility grants were cut. ski resorts and cement plants? Neither can they access Pacific Carbon Trust money. But the money they put in as carbon offsets were Hon. M. MacDiarmid: The member opposite has available for new heating systems for Westin Whistler made such a large number of incorrect statements that Resort and Spa, Pan Pacific Mountainside in Whistler, I really don't know where to start, but I will begin here. Four Seasons in Vancouver. So lots for private hotels; In Surrey we have increased funding by $14 million this nothing for Elkford Secondary School. My question is year. We're supporting education in Surrey. Surrey is the simple. How does that make sense to use educational fastest-growing district in the province, and we acknow- funds in that way? ledge that. We have invested over $204 million in new schools, in seismic upgrades, and we continue to invest Hon. M. MacDiarmid: As I said, our government is in this. absolutely committed to carbon neutrality and to con- [1430] tinuing our leadership in this area — without question. It is difficult to keep up with a rapidly growing district, As the member opposite is well aware, school districts but to say that we have not been investing in schools, to around this province have access to $110 million for an- mislead the public in this way, is simply wrong. nual facilities grants. There are other grants they can SCHOOL DISTRICT CARBON OFFSET COSTS apply for. We've worked with a number of districts over AND ENERGY RETROFIT FUNDING this past year to allow them to access restricted capital funding, and they've done these sorts of projects. Many N. Macdonald: I think for now and for the next three of the school districts value this just as much as we do. years, it's going to be very awkward for any B.C. Liberal I would ask the members opposite how they would to stand up and talk about misleading, after what they've manage things differently. How would they raise taxes? done to the province. Pretty thin ice. What would they download onto these very students The Central Okanagan school district is facing a $7.4 that they claim they are supporting? million shortfall, as this minister knows, which includes $137,000 in unfunded carbon offset costs. That means [End of question period.] the district has to cut that money, deprive students of that amount of funding, and there is no opportunity for Point of Privilege the district to reduce their carbon footprint. (Reservation of Right) So the question for the minister is this. Why is the government depriving students of needed services D. Horne: I rise to reserve my right to raise a matter and then using that money to fund private companies of privilege. through the Pacific Carbon Trust? Petitions Hon. M. MacDiarmid: I really must correct the rec- ord and remind the members opposite of exactly what D. McRae: I'd like to submit a petition from Comox we have done in this province with respect to our fund- Valley cycling residents in regards to the HST. ing in education. As of next year there will be 60,000 fewer students Interjections. in the system, and we are investing more than 1.3 bil- lion additional dollars in education in this province. It Mr. Speaker: Members. is really ironic that the NDP would take this day, Earth Day, of all days to argue against the carbon neutrality for M. Sather: I seek leave to present a petition. Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4731
Mr. Speaker: Proceed. That was before the election, but as soon as the elec- tions were over, they dropped the bombshell of betrayal M. Sather: I have another approximately 500 signa- on the people of British Columbia by doing completely tures from residents in Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows the opposite to that. Just six weeks after the election, calling on the government to scrap the implementation they announced the implementation of the HST. Just six of the HST. weeks after the election. Now we have found that just [1435] three days after the election there were actually nego- tiations going on between the government of British Standing Order 81.1 Columbia and the federal government. That's why it's very important that we send this mat- SCHEDULE FOR DEBATE ON BILL 9 ter to the committee so that we can find out the truth as to what went on. Clearly, this government was not Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, I rise pursuant to honest with the people of British Columbia before the Standing Order 81.1 simply to advise the House that I election. They failed to tell the truth before the election will be soliciting input from the Opposition House Leader when it comes to HST. That's why it's very important to with respect to developing a schedule for debate on Bill 9 refer this matter to the committee so that we can find that would see the required votes on that bill take place out what the reality was. prior to the expiration of the month of April. Now, 85 percent of the people of British Columbia I'll report back to the House in due course. don't support the HST. That's a huge majority, and they deserve to be heard. That's why it's very important for us Orders of the Day to send this matter to a committee so that the committee can go out and listen to the people of British Columbia Hon. M. de Jong: I call, in Committee A, Committee from all walks of life. That's why it's very important. of Supply — for the information of members, the esti- It is known that this HST tax is unfair. It's unfair, and mates of the Ministry of Forests — and, in this chamber, that's why it's very important that we refer this matter to continued second reading debate on Bill 9. a committee so that the people of British Columbia can come and provide their feedback to this government so Second Reading of Bills that they can find out how it's going to hurt the average person in British Columbia. Bill 9 — CONSUMPTION TAX REBATE The reality is this. TheH ST is going to transfer $1.9 bil- AND TRANSITION ACT lion in taxes from big businesses to the people of British (continued) Columbia. So $1.9 billion is going to be transferred from big businesses to the people of British Columbia. On the amendment (continued). In other words, big business will pay less, and the people of British Columbia will pay more. During the last nine J. Brar: I rise once again, Mr. Speaker…. [Applause.] years, since this government has been in power, tax cut I have support on both sides of the House. That's good after tax cut after tax cut to big businesses has been go- to know. ing on and subsidy after subsidy to corporations. Where will it end? [L. Reid in the chair.] [1440] When we talk about the minimum wage, they have I rise once again in support of the motion to refer Bill 9 constantly refused to raise the minimum wage. That's to a committee called the Select Standing Committee on why it's very important that we refer this matter to Finance. I do so because the people of British Columbia a committee — so that we can find answers for the have a lot of outstanding questions when we talk about people of British Columbia asking at this point in time. the implementation of the HST. It's very clear that HST is going to drive up the cost of During the last election the B.C. Liberals promised many, many things people use almost every day. It's a to the people of British Columbia that they would not real thing. impose the HST. That was the promise made by this I don't understand. Until today the Minister of Finance government to the people of British Columbia. Not failed to tell us even one thing where the cost will go up, only that, as I said earlier, but they gave that com- failed to mention one figure, a figure of any item where mitment in writing to the Canadian Restaurant and he says specifically that the cost of that thing will go up Foodservices Association, and they signed that letter. by so many dollars. He failed to do that. That's why it's They gave that commitment in writing to the Greater very important that we refer this matter to a committee Vancouver Home Builders Association, and they signed so that we can find out exactly what it will mean to the that letter as well. people of British Columbia. 4732 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
It's going to raise the cost of many things, once the ment — the big corporations, and rich people and their HST is implemented, and the list is very long. Restaurant friends. meals will go up. Many groceries — such as snack food [1445] and other prepared food like salad, sandwiches, heated Madam Speaker, my time is up, and I would like to food — will go up. The cost of school supplies will go up. probably conclude my comments by saying that I fully The cost of services, such as taxis, will go up. The cost support that we should send Bill 9 to the committee be- of live theatre, movie tickets, amusement parks, camp- cause there are a lot of outstanding questions that the ground fees, museum admission fees, whale-watching people of British Columbia are asking. tours — those will all go up. I support the motion because the HST is the single The cost for accounting services will go up. The cost most powerful bombshell of betrayal thrown on the for veterinarian care will go up. The cost for many other people of British Columbia during the election and professional services, like architects or real estate agents, after the election.I support this motion because the B.C. will go up with HST. Liberals failed to tell the truth to the people of British The cost for yoga classes will go up. People go out to Columbia about the HST during the election, when they get healthy and probably save costs to the province, and said they will not impose the HST. the cost for yoga classes, dance, cooking classes and I support this motion because the HST is an unfair tax martial arts will go up. The cost for membership fees for hike on the people of British Columbia. It will transfer clubs and gyms and players will go up for many teams $1.9 billion in taxes from big corporations to the people and sports. The cost of haircuts will go up. of British Columbia. I support this motion because the The list goes on, and this government has failed to HST will hurt a lot of small businesses in the province tell us. How much more will it cost the people of British of British Columbia, and it will cost thousands of jobs to Columbia for those things? The list is very long, and the people of British Columbia. that's why it's very important to send this matter, to refer I support this motion because people of Surrey- this matter to a committee — so that we can find out Fleetwood from all walks of life have been calling and exactly where the cost will go up and how much it will sending me e-mails to stop the HST, and that's why it's go up when we implement the HST. very important for us to send this matter to a committee. I have heard from the other side time and again that I support this motion because all the supporting argu- a lot of businesses are supporting the HST, but I have ments I have heard are not very convincing as of today. heard the other side of the story. There are a lot of busi- It's one-sided information, and the people of British nesses out there that do not support the HST. It will Columbia need to be told the truth. actually hurt a lot of small business people. The res- I will conclude my comments by saying that I fully taurant and food service industry is one of them. The support the motion. It's very important for this House construction industry and the real estate industry will to refer this matter to a committee so that the committee be hurt by this. The tourism industry will be hurt. The can go out and find the facts and the truth and the real- taxi industry will be hurt negatively. Veterinarians will ity, and the people of British Columbia can make a very make less. important decision about this. Thousands of people in British Columbia will lose jobs as a result of HST, in the restaurant industry alone. Hon. B. Penner: It's an honour for me to have a The restaurant industry alone forecasts that HST will chance to participate in this debate today. Let me just cost them up to 12,000 jobs — 12,000 jobs to the restau- say right at the outset that I am opposed to this mo- rant industry alone. tion the opposition has brought forward as a stalling The tourism industry predicts that it will cost them up tactic. to 10,000 jobs — 10,000 jobs to them. So there are a lot The amendment before us, as a stalling tactic, will not of businesses which will be impacted negatively. help put British Columbia on a strong economic foot- The list goes on. TheC ouncil of Tourism Associations ing to help us recover from the current global economic of B.C. is opposed to it. The B.C. Care Providers Asso- recession and come out of that recession stronger than ciation is opposed to it. The Federation of Community before. It is our party and our government's stated pos- Social Services of B.C. is opposed to HST. The Rental ition that that is our objective: to come out of the current Owners and Managers Society of B.C. is opposed to it. global economic downturn not just recovering from the The Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs — they're opposed to recession but coming out stronger than we were when it. we went into it. There are many other businesses opposed toH ST. The For reasons I'll go into in a moment, this bill itself reality is there are no winners. There are no winners will allow us to do just that. In short, this bill, Bill 9, is among us, among the people of British Columbia. The about jobs. On the other hand, the amendment from only one group of winners if we implement the HST are the members of the opposition and the member for Port the people who are the friends of the Liberal govern- Coquitlam is about the exact opposite. It's about stall- Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4733
ing the passage of Bill 9, the Consumption Tax Rebate have already moved to adopt a value-added tax, which and Transition Act, and it's about stalling the economic is essentially what the HST is, as opposed to the old recovery, which is now starting to take place in British and antiquated provincial sales tax that we have here Columbia. in British Columbia. When you take a look around the While it's true that our economy is starting to show OECD countries, the leading economies in the world, signs of recovery, our government isn't satisfied with 29 out of 30 of those countries have adopted similar tax that. We think that there's more that we can and should policies. do to help propel ourselves out of this deep economic In 1991 I had the opportunity to spend some time downturn that struck the whole world over the last 18 working in one of the Asian Tiger countries, working at to 24 months. a law firm in Bangkok, Thailand. During the 1990s that Madam Speaker, I would submit to you that this country, too, made a difficult choice. They decided to stalling tactic, this amendment put forward by the move to a value-added tax. member for Port Coquitlam and the NDP, is really typ- I can tell members here that it wasn't a popular thing ical of their approach to job creation and doing what's to do in Thailand either, but it was a decision that the best for the province. Their approach is, "Well, we can government of the day there chose to make, and ever put that off for another day. Let's just stall. Let's do the since then you've seen very significant and strong and politically expedient thing, and let's not worry about it," consistent economic growth in Thailand, so that it has even though there are people in British Columbia to- largely outpaced its neighbours in Southeast Asia in day who would certainly benefit if there were additional terms of growing their economy. jobs created. It used to actually be said…. When I was there in I was here as a member of the Legislature from 1996 1991 it was often referred to as a Third World coun- to 2001, when the NDP government of the day was in try. Thailand is no longer referred to as a Third World office, and I had constituents leaving almost weekly in country. I'm not going to suggest that the value-added search of jobs, to go to Alberta or Ontario, because B.C. tax that they adopted is the only reason that they moved had become the last province in Canada in terms of eco- from that not-so-desirable status to something much nomic growth. more enviable. But I think it is an important part. It was a sad record, a sad history, and it wasn't just I try to stay in touch with some of the former work a matter of statistics. It had a dramatic impact on in- colleagues I had there, as well as the many friends that dividual families, including people who lived in my I've made in Thailand. When going on theI nternet some neighbourhood that were forced to put up for-sale months ago, I came across a feature article in the Bangkok signs and leave the province in order to find an eco- Post — a retrospective talking about when Thailand nomic future for themselves, for their families and their adopted the value-added tax and the controversy that children. was associated with that, but also the economic benefits Since 2001 we've seen a significant reversal of for- that they've seen in terms of increased investment and tunes. British Columbia started to be a net beneficiary job creation and a growth in incomes year after year in of inward-bound interprovincial migration. That means that country. more people were moving to B.C. than were leaving, So even in Thailand, this many years on from making contrary to the late 1990s, when by the tens of thou- that decision, they still acknowledge that it was a con- sands, British Columbians were voting with their feet troversial decision. But the academics, the economists, and leaving the province to go find jobs elsewhere.A fter people in government all recognize that it was an im- we got elected, that trend was reversed. portant part of making that country a desirable place to [1450] invest and to help create jobs for their people and raise Today we see that British Columbia is poised to lead incomes by increasing the demand for labour — not just Canada in the economic recovery. We're already show- any labour, but increasingly skilled labour, whether it's ing some signs of job growth, and when you compare in the high-tech sector, in the manufacturing of com- the number of people working today to when we took puter components, in the automobile sector or their office in 2001, there are about 400,000 more people natural gas sector in processing. There's been significant working today, even after this recession, than there were economic growth. when we took office in 2001. It would be remiss not to acknowledge briefly some But as I said, as encouraging as these early signs of of the very uncertain, unhappy things that are hap- economic recovery are, our government is not satis- pening right as we speak. My thoughts are with my fied with that. We believe there is more that we can and friends and former colleagues in Bangkok in particu- should do, and the HST is one step in doing that. lar during this time of political upheaval and protest, Now, I want to bring this home a little bit, make it and I can only hope that cooler heads will prevail and a little bit closer to home, because it's already been that calm will come back to that country of very in- noted that more than 130 countries around the world spirational people who are more naturally inclined to 4734 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
smile than to get angry and engage themselves in vio- vestment in high-paying manufacturing jobs in British lent protests. Columbia?" So I hope that the leaders of the opposing groups and One of those reasons is because of the extra, addi- parties there will seek a means to resolve their differen- tional cost that's imposed on businesses, like the 7 ces without involving further bloodshed, because that's percent provincial sales tax which they cannot get back simply tragic and completely unnecessary in my view. through an input tax credit. Let me return back here to British Columbia. There's So to make it local, something like this HST will be one particular example that I'm familiar with where a significant benefit to a company like IMW and the a country moved to a value-added tax and has seen 150 or so workers there today, and the many more that I economic benefits, overcoming some of the political hope will be working there in the years ahead. concerns. Closer to home in my riding there's a com- Another community in the riding that I represent of pany I've visited a number of times. In fact, a number of Chilliwack-Hope is Agassiz, legally known as the district people I went to high school with are working there. It's of Kent. Last summer I had the chance to stop in and a company called IMW Industries. visit another business located there. They manufacture They're a world leader today in the manufacture, sale very large steel wheels for trucks in the construction sec- and distribution of natural gas compressors and dispens- tor, and we're talking big, massive trucks that are used in ing equipment. That company, over the last couple of the natural resource sector around the world for mining years since they moved to a new location in Chilliwack and other activities. just off ofL ickman Road, has grown. They've been hiring Their competitors are also based outside of Canada, people. Even through this economic recession, they've and they're trying to compete with one hand tied be- continued to hire additional people and to grow their hind their back in the form of the antiquated provincial business. Frankly, one of the challenges they've been fa- sales tax. cing is how to expand, because some of their customers To the extent that we can repeal that antiquated tax are asking for more products that would require them to — and that's what Bill 9 is all about — and move to a expand their facilities. harmonized sales tax, we can help that company, too, But with the Canadian dollar rising in value and much and the people working in Agassiz can continue to have of their product being exported to the United States or a bright employment future by assisting that company to other countries where the common denominator, in in its international competition, by removing that anti- terms of the currency exchange, is the U.S. dollar for the quated 7 percent add-on for every coat of paint that they contract price, it's getting tougher. require in that facility, their carpet, their computers, the [1455] forklifts that they use, the trucks that they need to move The margin has been shrinking because of the ris- their product to the port in Vancouver and put it on ves- ing Canadian dollar compared to the U.S. dollar. That sels to carry it to their customers around the world. makes it even more important for a company like IMW Those are just two local examples where this initia- and for the 150 or so employees working there that tive that our government has undertaken is really about British Columbia move to a value-added tax system like protecting and enhancing our ability to create jobs right the HST. here at home and jobs that are good-paying. Why? Because under an HST they will be able to get I'll just refer back to my notes for a moment. input credits for the amount of money that they're pay- Chilliwack is well known as an agricultural community. ing when they purchase new equipment and supplies Certainly, over the years that's been a mainstay. It's been and the components that go into this manufacturing a very stable part of our economy. While other sectors process in Chilliwack. have had their ups and downs, one thing that's really Madam Speaker, think about that — 7 percent to- provided a stabilizing influence in our community is the day that they have to pay on every component that relative health and strength of our agricultural sector. they're putting into their equipment that they want I am always interested to hear what farmers in my to sell. They've got international competitors, and community have to say, and I'd like to report to the they're selling on a world market where most of the House that, through the B.C. Agriculture Council, rest of the world does get input tax credits and does they're estimating that the agricultural sector will save not have to pay an antiquated provincial sales tax, about $15 million to $18 million per year through the where those exporting companies don't get the input adoption of the HST and the elimination and repeal of tax credit. So the PST is clearly putting our businesses the old, antiquated provincial sales tax. at a disadvantage. That will directly assist farmers in my community, not Frequently in British Columbia, people over the past just in Chilliwack but also in Agassiz and Harrison. In all few decades have rung their hands in angst and despair, three areas we have a significant number of dairy farms, saying: "Why is it? Why is it that we haven't had more chicken farms, some pork producers and a number of growth in manufacturing? Why don't we see more in- other operations. So that's another reason why I support Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4735
this initiative in Bill 9 and oppose the NDP's effort to government of Nova Scotia mirror almost exactly the derail it and postpone it and delay it and procrastinate kind of low-income relief that our government is pro- by way of this referral motion, amendment motion, that viding to British Columbians for when the HST comes the member for Port Coquitlam put forward. into effect and we repeal the antiquated provincial sales [1500] tax. Within British Columbia there'll be a large range of Now, I know that the NDP is reluctant to acknow- exemptions. For example, books for children, children's ledge many things about the HST. Here's one. You never clothing, shoes, car seats and diapers will be exempt. All hear them talk about the fact that we have designed it British Columbians will receive a credit for residential specifically so that there are tax credits targeted for low- energy costs. income families and seniors. In fact, under the proposal In his news release last July Jayson Myers, the president that our government has put forward with our Minister and CEO of the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, of Finance, more than 1.1 million British Columbians said: "This initiative is the biggest thing that can be done will benefit from that shift. to boost the B.C. economy." Add to that the climate action credit that we put in I've already talked about the local benefits to a num- place when we introduced the carbon tax, something ber of businesses based in my community that create the NDP opposition also was opposed to at that time, high-paying and, I also might add, satisfying jobs. Again, it adds up to a total of $340 per year in provincial cred- I know a number of the people working there from my its. That's a significant benefit and assistance to people days in high school. They really enjoy their work and of lower incomes. are hoping that governments will do the right thing so You have to ask yourself: is the NDP's opposition to- that they can continue to enjoy their work and continue day similar to their opposition to the carbon tax two to raise their families with a decent-paying job in the years ago, when they thought they saw a political oppor- community they grew up in and in which they enjoy liv- tunity and just jumped on that bandwagon and then saw ing in. that bandwagon's wheels fall off during the last provin- A gentlemen, a UBC professor in the department of cial election campaign and veer into the ditch? Or is it economics, a fellow named Kevin Milligan, told the really based on some underlying fundamental NDP so- Tyee on-line newspaper, the frequent source of NDP cialist principle? question period research material: "HST isn't a left-right Well, that's a very good question. We hear a lot from issue, and it isn't ideological as far as economists are the opposition NDP about them being all for socialist concerned. It's just a good policy. It isn't pro-business, principles. Yet when you look across the country, which and it's not anti-consumer. It is the necessary modern- province in Canada is moving to the highest level of ization of tax policy." HST in the entire country? Where is that? It's in a prov- Yet we see the NDP in British Columbia continue to ince that has an NDP government. advocate for a British Columbia that would be left behind Nova Scotia announced just two or three weeks ago in in the dark ages of progressive tax policy with this bla- their latest provincial budget that far from eliminating tant stalling tactic that the member for Port Coquitlam the HST, based on some NDP socialist principle, they're has put forward. Again, that stands in stark contrast to hiking the HST. I believe it'll now go up to 15 percent in what we see from the NDP brethren in Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia. So much for principles on the part of the There's another reasonI 'd like to offer to the members NDP in opposing the HST. The NDP are increasing the opposite not to support the motion to refer this matter HST in Nova Scotia. that was put forward by the member for Port Coquitlam, We know that unlike the B.C. Liberal Party, which and that's because they really haven't put forward any al- doesn't have any constitutional connection in terms of ternative ideas for how to stimulate investment in British its membership to any federal party or other parties in Columbia and get more people working. Canada, the NDP are constitutionally connected at the [1505] hip with their brethren at the federal level and at the Just recently we saw an article in the Vancouver Sun from provincial level. If you're a member of the NDP in British Prof. Jon Kesselman, who holds the Canada Research Chair Columbia, you're also a member of the federal NDP. If in Public Finance with the graduate public policy program you're a member of the NDP in Nova Scotia at the provin- at Simon Fraser University, one of the universities I gradu- cial level, you're also a member of the NDP federally. ated from in the past. He wrote in the Vancouver Sun: It's pretty clear, based on the actions of one of the few "B.C.'s PST is seriously flawed and economically damaging, NDP governments in Canada in hiking the HST to the and whatever its potential shortcomings, the HST will be highest level in the entire country, that far from having superior in almost every respect." some socialist principle opposing the HST, the NDP ac- That kind of learned opinion falls on completely deaf tually support it, and they're increasing it. ears in terms of the members of the opposition. You It's interesting to note that the types of credits for have to ask yourself again: if it isn't about their socialist low-income earners that have been put in place by the philosophy, then what is it? 4736 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
Madam Speaker, I'll tell you what it is. It's all about opposition to something, that they at least get their political expediency. They think they've sensed an op- position consistent with each other. Even if it's not con- portunity — just like they did when they opposed sistent with other NDP governments or parties across the carbon tax only to reverse their position after the Canada, at least maybe within their own caucus they election, just like they did when they opposed the cap- could come up with a position that is more consistent and-trade legislation by voting against it and when they with each other than what we've seen to date. Frankly, voted against low-carbon fuels, when we introduced one's head spins when you listen to the conflicting and that a couple years ago. contorted positions of the NDP on this issue. I predict that within a short while the NDP, even here In fact, you think back to a unanimous recommen- in British Columbia, will reverse their position on their dation that came from a Finance Committee a couple opposition to the HST. Their leader has already hinted of years ago where all members of that committee, in- that's the case by noting that there isn't much you can cluding the NDP, said something like an HST should be do after this comes into effect and that it will be there considered and studied. Yet here we are two years later, for at least five years. Therefore, she's not promising to after a committee already studied and talked about and repeal it. recommended pursuing the HST, with yet another mo- Now, there are good reasons why the HST should tion to go back to that very same committee to have not be repealed, but it's pretty disingenuous to have the more discussion about this topic. Leader of the Opposition trying to keep up with for- For reasons I've already articulated, as we're coming mer Premier Bill Vander Zalm in his anti-HST crusade, out of a recession and looking for more investment and never mind how chock-a-block of misstatements and more jobs, now is not the time to delay and stall and falsehoods his website is. The NDP leader is trying — defer the opportunity to make a tax measure that will and not succeeding, it seems — to keep up with former expedite our recovery from the economic downturn and Premier Bill Vander Zalm in terms of her public profile boost B.C.'s economic fortunes even more than they're on this issue. already projected to increase over the next couple of It's been obvious, too, from comments from not just years. the Leader of the Opposition but a number of other [1510] NDP MLAs that they're having a hard time getting I know that the NDP likes to talk about spending their internal caucus position together. They're not ter- more money at every opportunity. We heard it again to- ribly cohesive on it. We've seen it in a couple of different day during question period: "Why doesn't the Minister ways. of Education, instead of just increasing education spend- Recently we saw it on photo radar, with conflicting ing by tens of millions of dollars, increase it by even statements between their Energy critic, their Public more tens of millions of dollars?" They're completely ob- Safety critic, and others, about whether or not the NDP livious to the fact that we're already struggling with a would reinstate photo radar. Just this week we've seen $1.7 billion deficit and recognizing, too, that those very conflicting, contorted positions on Site C, whether school children that they purport to have concern about they're in favour or not. Frankly, the Energy critic has will be left to shoulder the burden of any increased debt said that it makes him excited to think about Site C, that that would result from a government pursuing NDP it's the cleanest and greenest form of energy in North policies. America. This tax reform, this change to the PST — the elim- Today we see, with this stalling tactic that the NDP ination of that antiquated tax, replacing it with an HST is talking about in terms of this motion, that they, too, — is really about the future and about creating a stronger can't get their act together in terms of what their cau- economy with more options for our young people that cus position is. We have the member for Surrey-Whalley, are currently in school. It's one thing to go to school the Finance critic, saying at one time that they will keep and have an education, but it's another thing to wonder, the HST. In fact, here's what he told CKNW: "Once it's when you reach the end of your grade 12, whether or not out, once it's done, it's done." there are actually going to be employment opportunities On the other hand, we have the member for Juan de to go to and what your options are. Fuca saying to CFAX radio here in Victoria on February We know from experience around the world that 10: "We can reduce portions of the HST, but we have to countries that move to a value-added tax like the HST find revenue to offset that from other taxes." Yet with see an increase in investment because of the elimination this motion we have no hint from the opposition of what of that discouraging effect of the 7 percent provincial other taxes they have in mind in terms of cranking them sales tax on new equipment and machinery. up to offset the reduction in revenue that would be ex- That is, I think, one of the reasons why the NDP in perienced by the elimination of the HST. Nova Scotia, when looking to see how they were going to I think it's incumbent upon the members of the op- eliminate or at least take steps to eliminate their deficit, position, if they're going to try and take a position of chose to increase the HST compared to other taxes. They Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4737
knew that from an economic perspective it had a bet- not just to benchmarking ourselves with the rest of Can- ter impact on the economy than other choices that they ada or even the United States but for B.C.'s future — and were confronted with in terms of revenue increases. our future growth and our diversification of exports in Again, the members opposite here don't have to take our economy — at what other countries are doing in the it from me or the Finance Minister or the Premier. They Pacific Rim and around the world. just need to phone up their NDP brethren in Nova [1515] Scotia and ask them why it is that the NDP in Nova That's why it's important to take note and not dis- Scotia think the HST is a preferable tax to income tax, miss out of hand — as the NDP likes to do here in corporate income tax, small business tax or any other B.C., unlike their cousins in Nova Scotia — the fact form of taxation when they had the choice about how that 130 countries around the world have moved to a they were going to try to close the gap in their provin- value-added tax and abandoned things like antiquated cial deficit. provincial sales tax which result in a cascading effect, I note that the NDP government in Nova Scotia was where taxes get added and added at every level of the elected last year and made a number of commitments production cycle and then get buried and embedded about not reducing or laying off staff in the public ser- in the price instead of only showing up once at the end vice in order to balance their budget, and three weeks product. ago they announced that in fact they'll be reducing their I know economics has never been the NDP's strong civil service by about 1,000 positions over the next four suit — nor mathematics, for that matter — so I can years. somewhat forgive their difficulty in understanding the Let me share with you another observation, as I con- concept behind stripping out those embedded taxes sider whether or not the NDP's motion to delay and that exist as a result of the antiquated provincial sales stall on this tax reform initiative is worthwhile. We've tax. But again, if they're having a hard time getting heard doom and gloom from the members opposite that their head around it and they can't bring themselves to people will stop going to restaurants. understand basic economic principles or even math- I was in Nova Scotia last summer, and it was hard to ematics, all they have to do is pick up the phone and get into restaurants. Their HST at that time was 13 per- call Jack. cent — higher than what our rate will be — and it was Call Jack Layton and ask Jack Layton what he thinks difficult to get into restaurants. There were lineups to get about the NDP in Nova Scotia increasing the HST. into restaurants in Nova Scotia, with an HST in place That's what the NDP has done in Nova Scotia under the that's higher than what we're proposing. That was at 13 leadership of the NDP there and with Jack Layton at the percent, before the NDP government there decided to federal level of their party. So if they can't understand increase it to 15 percent. the economic concepts here on their own — and I can I know that any change can be challenging for people. understand that they're challenged in that regard — all It's something to get accustomed to, but the empirical they have to do is phone their NDP brethren in Nova evidence shows that over time people can adjust and, as Scotia or their leader, Jack, and say: "Hey, Jack, can you demonstrated by the lineups that I experienced in the walk us through this? Why did the NDP in Nova Scotia restaurants in Nova Scotia, they have managed to adjust increase the HST?" to an HST, so much so that the NDP in Nova Scotia saw fit to raise it even higher to 15 percent. Interjections. We've done a lot of things since 2001 to support new investment in the economy. That's one reason why we Hon. B. Penner: Have you been to Nova Scotia? have 400,000 more jobs today than we did when we Obviously, I've hit a sore point with the members of the took office after the NDP's failed decade in office. Bill 9 NDP here in British Columbia, who are obviously un- is a continuation of the work to make British Columbia comfortable by a choice their brethren made in Nova more competitive, and not just in Canada. Scotia. I know we're very used to comparing ourselves to Let's get back to some other effects here in British Canada. I just did it myself a moment ago to one of the Columbia that we can look forward to. examples of NDP policy and practice in Nova Scotia in raising the HST there. But it's important to know that G. Gentner: On this side I'll take Jack Layton any day we're in an international competition. Simply bench- before their Stephen Harper — without question. marking ourselves against other Canadian provinces is I'm somewhat a little handicapped because I'm fol- not enough. lowing the riveting oratorical skills of the member More than virtually any other province, British Col- opposite. It was very awesome how he was able to deliver umbia's economy is trade-dependent. More than any it, but I do have to talk briefly about what the Minister of other province, more of our exports, as a percentage, go Environment didn't tell us and why it should be referred. offshore than anywhere else inC anada. We have to look And we'll talk about the motion. 4738 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
It's the fact the HST is going to affect tourism-re- know what you're talking about," here's an opportunity lated industries, tourism-related industries that are part for this government to go around the province and lis- of his ministry itself. You know, campgrounds will be ten to the people of British Columbia. That's what this impacted. We're going to be looking at American com- motion is all about. petition. I mean, why would Americans cross the border Frankly, I just don't understand the reluctance of and come to our B.C. parks with an HST attached? It this government to deal with an opportunity to do a doesn't make sense. Our dollar's at par. It's at parity. It's heart-to-heart with the people of British Columbia. Boy, going up. By July 1 we're going to have a Canadian dollar would they eliminate the type of fervour, almost hysteria probably $1.04, $1.10, and tack on the HST. right now, relative to what they've created with the HST Why wouldn't the minister want to refer this to a if they would just sit down and have a discussion with committee and get a better understanding of not only the people of British Columbia. That's what this motion what the people are saying but the real economics of is all about, but they don't get it. small towns — small towns that rely on tourism, rely I have to talk briefly about…. Interesting that yes- on camping, RV campgrounds, RV parks, fishing char- terday the Minister of Health Services stood up and ters? Why wouldn't he want to talk to those people who enlightened us a little bit about the HST. He was talking could possibly lose their jobs because of the impact of about the discussion or the anger against his govern- the HST? That's due diligence. ment, and I quote the minister. Yesterday afternoon, in I mean, the minister talks about the stalling tactic, but fact, he said: "Now, you could say, I suppose, that this you know, democracy sometimes is exhaustive. Isn't that was a flip-flop or that they changed their position or what we're supposed to do? It's participatory democracy. they completely reversed direction — all the kinds of Ask people. things that I'm hearing right now about, apparently, our government and our position on the HST." An Hon. Member: Tell them the truth. A flip-flop.H e admitted there's a flip-flop, but he goes on to say: "So let the record be clear for this member. I G. Gentner: Tell them the truth. have been pushing a harmonized sales tax since I first We're talking about increases on, perhaps, propane. got elected in 2001." That's what the Minister of Health How is that going to impact the camper? The minister Services said. He admitted it. He's the father of the HST talked about his constituency, that of Chilliwack, and of in British Columbia. course, we know that perhaps animal feed will be im- The Minister of Health Services stood here right pacted, as well, by the HST. across and said that it was his idea way back in 2001. We You know, it's interesting that this government is un- haven't heard one pip from this side about it till, mir- willing to consult, to confer with the people of British aculously, it occurred two days after the election.A little Columbia, and that is why I support this motion. discussion started to happen there. [1520] He goes on to say: "I remember talking to Minister The motion made by the House Leader of the oppos- Gary Collins at the time and trying to encourage the ition states quite emphatically that "the subject matter be minister at that time to consider a merger of the taxes, forwarded to the Select Standing Committee on Finance because I always felt that this was going to be good for and Government Services and further that the commit- the economy." tee be empowered to invite witnesses to appear before it The minister was already talking to the Minister of to assist in its deliberation." Finance way back in 2001, for heaven's sake. It was his That makes perfect sense. What's wrong with a heart- idea. He's been lobbying for it since 2001, until it was ac- to-heart? What's wrong with a true dialogue? I mean, we tually implemented. Could you imagine that? Yet there's hear on the other side how we have all this misinforma- no record at all in the House that he is the father of the tion. Well, okay, let's clear the air. Let's sit down. Let's B.C. HST, the member from Cloverdale. That's amazing. chew the fat with the people of British Columbia. Let's You know, it's like a visionary. He's taking all the credit sit down. That's what this motion is saying. But no, it's for the HST. What leadership — truly leadership. a stall. I find it remarkable. In fact, if we refer it to a commit- This is kind of what Archie Bunker told Edith: "Stifle tee that goes amongst the province, this could be the B.C. yourself." That's the attitude over there. That's why they Liberal leadership tour. Yes. They'll have an opportunity don't want to support this referral motion. "Stifle your- to go around and explain to everybody — the Minister self, voters. You made a big mistake. We told you one of Finance and the Minister of Health Services, who's thing before the election, but we've all of a sudden got this vision. It's amazing. changed our minds. Zip your lips. Sit down. We don't [1525] want to hear from you. We know best." Here's a minister who in 2000 was running around This is what this motion is allowing the government the recall campaign in Cloverdale and all the rest of it, to do. Instead of telling people, "Sit down. You don't and he had a vision way back then to squeeze the con- Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4739
sumers, way back in 2001. But he didn't come clean. No, are liberals in name only. They're nothing less….I mean, Madam Speaker. they're not liberals. That's one reason why we need to refer this to the I'm a social democrat, and we do adopt many of the Standing Committee on Finance and Government liberal perspectives — small-l liberal. But when you look Services — to clear the air so that we can ask the Minister at what democracy, in the liberal eyes, is supposed to of Health Services and other ministers perhaps. Maybe be, it's consultation. That is called direct democracy, and we can call them, subpoena them and get them on the that is what this motion is all about. record and find out when this whole nonsense started, But the opposite side we heard before…. In fact, they because we have the Minister of Health, who says that referred to the work in this House as busy work. Do you it's his idea. It's been around since 2001. remember that, hon. Speaker? I'm sure you do. It was You know, at first I had a little difficulty, I have to busy work. "Oh, we don't have to come in the fall." I admit, hon. Speaker, in actually supporting this motion, think it was a fall session — a couple of weeks. What an because I wasn't sure what the Opposition House Leader inconvenience that was going to be. "Let's brush it off."I was going to pull off here. We've seen when they've cre- think that the House Leader on the opposite side called ated these types of committees before, the government, it busy work. "No, no, no, we don't want to do that." and it's kind of a dog-and-pony show. I'm surprised that the government even wants to…. Remember the Conversation on Health, this band- I mean, I know they want to get on with it. They want wagon that went all around the province? They actually to get out of here. But I'm surprised they don't want a went over to Europe. They told everybody: "This is the filibuster so that they can stay in this House all week- Conversation on Health, the Premier's tour, and we're end and don't have to face their constituents back home going to consult with people." They didn't consult with this weekend. I mean, it must be devastating there. Why anybody. They consulted with their own little stakehold- wouldn't they want to consult the people? ers, and lo and behold, when they got the answer, they [1530] didn't like the answer. What did they do? They quashed Talk about getting the monkey off your back. What it. an opportunity — to adopt this motion and confer and In fact, if you look in the archives, the archives people talk to the people of British Columbia. You'd look like have been told: "You've got to remove it from the record heroes. But you're going to slink and slither under some now." It's amazing. They want to get rid of it. This is the stone and try and deny that this is going to be harmful, type of government…. the harmful sales tax. I want to talk about liberalism. Oh, here's a concept. Let's talk about what liberalism really means. I want to Deputy Speaker: Member, you need the address the talk about the pragmatism, about the 20th century lib- chamber with parliamentary language. eral John Dewey. He asserted that complete democracy was to be obtained not just by extending voting rights but G. Gentner: Thank you, hon. Speaker. also by ensuring that there exists a fully formed public Let me address the parliamentary committees. opinion. That's true liberalism, accomplished by effective They're "appointed by theL egislative Assembly of British communication amongst citizens, experts and polit- Columbia to undertake business on behalf of the assem- icians, with the latter being accountable for the policies bly." That's their job, and that's the whole notion of this they adopt. That's the 20th century of John Dewey. motion. "Committees are comprised of Members of the If you look at some of the American postal stamps, Legislative Assembly. Committees derive their pow- they've got his photo there. He's seen as one of the fath- ers from the House and must report their findings back ers of modern liberalism. Let me quote what he had to to the House." Hon. Speaker, what's wrong with that? say: That's what this motion is all about. "Democracy is a way of personal life controlled not merely by Maybe it's called busywork by some, but it's to go out faith in human nature in general but by faith in the capacity of there in the province — and it's a little populous; I know human beings for intelligent judgment and action if proper con- — to go to Fort St. John, to go to the Stikine, to go to the ditions are furnished…. I acquired" — the faith in human nature suburbs of the Lower Mainland, to go up-Island, to go to — "from my surroundings, as far as those surroundings were ani- mated by the democratic spirit. the Kootenays and sit down, break bread, talk, find out "For what is the faith of democracy in the role of consultation, what people are thinking and even have a discourse and of conference, of persuasion, of discussion, in the formation of correct some of the so-called misinformation. public opinion, which in the long run is self-corrective, except Committees consider only those matters that are re- faith in the capacity of the intelligence of the common man to respond with common sense to the free play of facts and ideas ferred to them by the Leg., so the motion is directive. It's which are secured by effective guarantees of free inquiry, free telling the committee to go out there specifically with assembly and free communication?" the idea to find and search the information, to hear the Free assembly, free inquiry, free communication. I bring opinions, to collate it, to bring it together and to bring it to the House because obviously the members opposite it back. 4740 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
[C. Trevena in the chair.] committees may travel throughout B.C. In recent years committees have investigated a wide amount…. We've "Within its terms of reference, each committee" — and investigated through the committee system earthquake this committee — "is afforded total independence with preparedness, agriculture and food policy, lumber its deliberations." There you go. What an opportun- manufacturing, the Nisga'a agreement-in-principle. ity to go arm's length and talk to the people of British That was painstakingly long, but it began in a committee Columbia — to talk, to consult, to confer with the people that went out there and did it right. of British Columbia. Madam Speaker, you know about the fish farm com- I thought that's why we were here. That's what I mittee — the standing committee on investigation. thought we were all about — not to lock us up here in That was another one that went out there and got the the chambers and turn our back on what the people of information. It was an all-party decision. It was an all- British Columbia are most upset about. party meeting. They all didn't agree, but they found the "The committee system allows for a detailed examina- information. And the result of it…. The government tion of matters in a manner which would not be possible did not necessarily act, and now we're in a mess today, in the larger House." Okay, that is the purpose of the I believe, relative to the federal government's Hinkson committee. It's to get the detail, to get the meat, to get the decision and the Cohen inquest. But I'm getting off- information, to take the politics out of it, to get out there. topic. I'm just giving an example of what a committee "At times, the committee system also allows members of can do. the public to have direct input into the parliamentary "At the end of its deliberations, a committee must process by making written submissions and attending report its observations and recommendations to the public hearings." Legislative Assembly. The observations contained in Many of us were on city councils for years, and there a report often refer to evidence collected during the were painstaking evenings that we were up till midnight. public hearing process. The committee reports con- I'm sure the member for Delta South will concur on that tain recommendations" — recommendations for action. one. We went many evenings late into the night to hear Who knows? Maybe this parliament of ours can work what people had to say. In many ways, I have to tell you together through the committee system. that municipal government is far more participatory "Committees in B. C. do not have the authority to dir- and directly democratic than what we find in the so- ectly alter legislation or cause the government to take called parliamentary system here today. I think that's a any specific action." That's the good thing about it. I shame, but here's an opportunity with this motion. mean, the government is government, but it can receive You know, it's also information where we can decipher advice from the people vis-à-vis through the Committee what the people are saying. According to the mandate of of Finance and Government Service. this committee, it can travel within British Columbia to The committee it's recommended to is the Finance obtain all the evidence. This committee would be em- and Government Services Committee. The Chair, the powered by the motion which is tabled in the Legislature. convener, is the member for Chilliwack. Now, why The motion calls for a committee to investigate this mat- wouldn't the member for Chilliwack vote…? He stood ter, and it's the Legislative Assembly that votes on the up here just quite recently and said he's going to vote motion. against it, when he's the convener of the committee that The substance of the motion becomes the commit- can go out there and search out there, find out all the tee's terms of reference. The terms of reference outlines information out. the tasks given to the committee and also permits the committee to meet, to call witnesses, to retain person- T. Lake: Already done it. Done it already. nel as required. The terms of reference may also specify that the committee must report back to the Legislature G. Gentner: Or Kelowna–Lake Country — there you within a given time period. Certainly we can do that. go. He's on the committee. He could tell his constitu- We don't have to stall. We can somewhat not neces- ents that instead of hiding this weekend from all the sarily expedite, but I think we can be reasonable in the fervour, he could sit on a committee and say: "I'll meet reporting-back structure. with you, and I'll show you some leadership, and we'll How much more democratic can it be but to sup- invite you in for coffee and find out what you have to port this motion? What a gift, to use the parliamentary say." The member for Kelowna–Lake Country has that committee system that allows for a more detailed exam- ability right now to do it — right now. ination of matters that would not be possible in the He could vote for this motion and get involved with larger, more formal environment of this House. participatory democracy and invite insightfulness from [1535] the people of Kelowna and the people from all over the Committees allow members of the public to have Okanagan, but will he use that advantage? Will he use direct input with public hearings, and parliamentary his position on that committee? No. Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4741
Or the MLA for Comox Valley, another member. Bus fares — what about the bus riders? They hear it's Huge opportunity to strike up the band in his com- going to be incorporated in their fares somehow. But munity and find out what's going on. Same with the you know, here's an opportunity to go out there in the members for Abbotsford South, Nechako Lakes, North ether in the province and describe to everybody what's Vancouver–Seymour. They sit on this committee too. actually going on rather than spending perhaps millions What an opportunity to discuss, to confer with the of dollars on a propaganda machine. That's what we're people of British Columbia. I ask them to reconsider going to see. their position. That is what this motion allows you to do — to go out To consult is a matter…. There's a little tactfulness in into the province of British Columbia and talk to the all of it, but I believe Edward Kennedy said: "The work people, have a cup of coffee and find out what's going on goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the and what they think. dream shall never die." You know, I wish that's what this government would employ, because that is what consul- Interjection. tation is all about. We know the public hearing process. We have the G. Gentner: Coffee's going to go up. Yeah, well, that's public Utilities Commission. It has public hearings. It true, but nevertheless, maybe over a cup of java we can initiates and examines applications. The commission talk about what the implications are. counsellor has staff, has sequences and procedures fol- Golf fees. Let's get on the golf courses and talk to the lowed by hearings. golfers this summer before they decide to go Stateside It's part of our DNA, our culture. It's already in place. and hit a ball somewhere in Washington State because We've seen alternate dispute resolutions. We see the first the fees are cheaper and there's no tax. step, order and notice of public hearings, availability of Taxis are going up. Boy, there's another one we should the applications, interventions, record of proceedings. talk to. But don't worry about that. Let's not talk to taxi It's part of our tradition. Then why is this government associations or taxi drivers because — you know what? — denying this opportunity? There are so many different they're the biggest messenger in the province. You know types of public hearings. We can see what happened what they're going to say to the rest of the people of B.C. with negotiated settlement processes, the proper loca- Why don't we talk to the barbers, the beauticians? tions, orders, notices of public hearings, information Why don't we talk to them? That's what this opportun- requests. ity is. But I know the minister doesn't…. The minister [1540] should be worried because he's going to need a haircut I just don't, frankly, understand why this group across some day. What's your barber going to say, hon. Speaker? the way is unwilling to consult with bike owners and It'll be a bad hair day. July 1 is a bad hair day in the prov- stakeholders of the province of B.C. You know, in my ince of British Columbia. community we have something wonderful. It's called Well, we can get into the Beatles revival again, but we the Tour de Delta. This is a bike race that's been around won't. The fact that people will be putting bowls on their for quite a while now. It came out of the Tour de White head to cut their hair because they can't afford the cost Rock. I think even Victoria had something with a bike of a barber anymore. Unbelievable. Maybe we'll see the race downtown. Young kids are involved in biking. They HAIR musical revival coming, and we'll all be wearing are enthused about it. Nevertheless. beads and sandals. Heaven forbid. Where's the consultation there? Where is the consul- Why aren't you talking to the naturopaths? Why don't tation with the restaurant associations or the realtors? you talk to the dieticians and see how the supplements That's what the opportunity of this motion is, you know. are going to affect them? Here's an opportunity. If you Where is the opportunity to actually sit down? Maybe vote for this motion, you'll be able to talk to stakeholders, you should sit down and talk to the Vancouver Canucks. and that's what we're supposed to do. We know the HST is going to hit them after July 1.I know Home maintenance. Or how about home renova- they did well last night, and we're all hopeful they're go- tions? Here's an opportunity to get out there and talk ing to go all the way. Thank heavens the Stanley Cup to Shell Busey. What an opportunity that would be. final in Vancouver will be finished before the HST is in Get out there and talk to Shell. I know you listen to place, before July 1 this year. the home improvement show every Sunday morning. But what about next year? Why aren't we talking to Nevertheless, I'm sure Shell could tell you what's going hockey teams, the hockey moms and dads, or the Prince on out there and how it's going to impact it. You know, George Cougars, the Kootenay Ice? Here's an opportun- he could give you a few little tips maybe on how to do ity. This government can network with the Vancouver some drywall or something over there. I don't know, but Club, the Arbutus Club, the Terminal City Club. Their what an opportunity. memberships are going to be impacted. Boy, what an Concert tickets. I like concert tickets, and I'm looking opportunity that would be. at what's coming up this summer. I'm just wondering if 4742 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
I'm going to be able and a lot of my friends are going to Deputy Speaker: I'd like to remind members that if be able to afford it anymore. Maybe we should sit down they want to have separate conversations, they should and get an opportunity to go talk to some rock stars, do it at a more muted level. some pop, hip hop guys. Go and consult with them. How is it going to affect their situation? Debate Continued [1545] Firefighters, smoke detectors — why don't we talk to Hon. I. Black: Thank you to the previous member them? I hear we're getting rid of the ICE fund — you for making the introductions. Hon. Speaker, let me say know, the independent clean energy fund. Oh, we're not through you to our guests in the gallery that not only getting rid of it. Yes, we're going to suspend the fund, are they most welcome, but it's nice to have an audience slowly drain it and trickle it away. There's another one. that's actually looking at you. So thank you for being Why don't we talk to them? After all, solar power is go- here. ing to be impacted now. Why don't we talk about the For the benefit of those marvellous school children real alternate energy needs out there? up there, by way of reference, I stand to speak against a Here's an opportunity. By supporting this motion, motion that's currently on the floor, which is effectively we can get out in the province and talk to anybody we designed — a suggestion by the opposition of the gov- want. If you go back to some of the debates, what was ernment — to delay putting into law one of the more said in Hansard years ago, I just want to leave you with important tax measures that our province has seen in this thought…. decades. I rise to speak against the motion that's here because it Interjections. involves delaying. It involves delaying the motion that's the main item of debate at the moment, which is known Deputy Speaker: One moment, Member. as the harmonized sales tax. Members. There's been a great deal of opportunity in the last number of months for political theatre, and we are at G. Gentner: The current Minister of Finance said a point in this debate where we have to rise above that the following: "You know, at the end of the day it's not wherever we can. This is not about refighting the last government's money; it's the taxpayers' money. It's the election. This is about focusing on the most important people that are working eight and nine hours a day, that thing we can do for the economy of British Columbia at are struggling to raise their families, feed their children, this point in our history. attend their local parent advisory committee meetings, To stall the legislation that is being proposed is to be involved in the community, coach soccer. Those stall the benefits associated with this very, very im- are the people that are making the contribution, and portant move. In order to address, I think, the needs the work they do and the taxes they pay are something of our communities at the moment, there's a need to that we have to treat with the utmost respect." March 7, rise above…. Frankly, a lot of fearmongering has been 2005. taking place and a tremendous amount of misinforma- I leave you with this notion, hon. Speaker. Why tion, which is often the case. Fearmongering is often doesn't this philosophy hold up today? Because it's a caused by a fundamental lack of facts. Most people, massive tax grab. Why is it that the government doesn't when they have an issue of some kind or another, can welcome this motion and hit the trail and find out what very often through communication have their con- the people of British Columbia are really saying about cerns addressed. the HST? In fact, I think back to when I was in business. One of the phrases I used to use is that 80 percent of all S. Simpson: I ask leave to make an introduction. problems can be solved with communication. That, I believe, is very, very true. I think that as we stand Leave granted. here today, part of the job we have in this House is to address the miscommunication that has been taking Introductions by Members place and, in doing so, illustrate why there is no time for the delay associated with this very important piece S. Simpson: I'm really pleased that today in the gal- of legislation. lery we have 23 Templeton students and their teachers. [1550] They're over here, as students come from all kinds of I think of the ridiculous e-mail that's been making the places, to see what we do here. I'm sure they're excited rounds with respect to senior citizens and how there has to come and watch this stimulating HST debate that's been a perception that's been allowed to grow — com- going on here. I would ask the House to make the stu- pletely against the facts, completely against the very dents from Templeton welcome. commonly available information on the HST — that Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4743
somehow this would punish seniors. The example used number of myths that have been floating around that is of punishing seniors in the $40,000 income range to simply just are not true. the tune of $2,100 a year of additional out-of-pocket ex- In fact, when you combine the $230 credit that's been penditures that they otherwise would not have. associated with this measure, that every working British That is a preposterous scenario. If one simply does Columbian is going to get at the lower income levels…. the arithmetic, one could see that in order for that to If you combine this $1,700 of extra tax-free money that be true — of the money that that seniors couple is mak- British Columbians are getting because the threshold ing, in this fictitious e-mail that has gone viral within has been increased from $9,300 to $11,000, in terms of British Columbia now — that couple would effectively when you actually start paying tax in B.C. as a person, have to spend $30,000 of that $40,000. After all taxes with the fact that the average British Columbian today are paid, they'd have to spend $30,000 of that $40,000 has $2,000 more in their pocket in cash because of all on items which are not today currently taxable by the the tax cuts that have been made by this government in PST. the last almost a decade now, it really decries and speaks That is just not an arithmetically possible or logical against the notion that somehow this is going to be pun- reality. It just can't happen, especially when you contem- ishing to low-income British Columbians. plate the scenario of young families, who may have lower And, I might add, we've also eliminated the need to income brackets at a time in life when they're starting pay tax entirely for about a hundred thousand British out in their careers, starting out with young families — a Columbians since we took office in 2001. The track re- path that I've had the challenges and joys of experien- cord of the government in these different tax measures cing myself. is very, very clear, and we're not changing our approach The reality is that in conjunction with introducing now. We protect seniors, we protect low-income fam- this HST, we're also introducing a $230 credit for every ilies, and yet we've still managed to create almost working British Columbian. That, along with the $1,700 400,000 more jobs today than there were ten years ago, extra income they're allowed to make on a tax-free in the face of one of the worst recessions we'd seen in basis, announced alongside of this measure, means that generations. low-income British Columbians will not be negatively That point, I think, is one of the most important ele- impacted by the HST. Neither will be low-income sen- ments of this debate. That is when I mentioned the iors. It's mathematically not possible. It's one of the jobs hundreds of thousands of jobs that we are still ahead, incumbent on us to try to correct some of these myths relative to our position in 2001. That, ultimately, is what that have been propagated at the moment. That's just the HST debate is all about. It's about jobs. It's about part of our job. jobs. You know, the list of the myths around the HST…. I've [1555] touched on a couple of them. The seniors e-mail is one When we voted on, and the opposition voted against, of the more prevalent ones. The list of myths around the eliminating the corporate capital tax, that was about HST continues to grow. I still have people coming up jobs. When we voted to take the small business tax rate to me asking me whether somehow there's going to be from 4½ percent down to 2½ percent, that was about a 19 percent sales tax in July. Well, no, that's absolutely jobs. Taking it from 2½ percent to 1½ percent? That was not true. about jobs. And eliminating it altogether for the small The vast majority of things that we buy today have 12 business community? That also was about jobs. percent tax on them — 7 percent PST and 5 percent GST. When we raised the income tax threshold for our That will continue to be the tax rate after July 1 on those small business community — that I so proudly rep- vast majority of things that we buy. In fact, the irony of resent as the minister associated with Small Business, that myth is the fact that what we are actually debating Technology and Economic Development — that, too, stalling is the piece of legislation that will remove the was about jobs. existing 7 percent PST in order to allow the new 12 per- For the benefit of those watching at home and our cent PST to continue at that level. children in the gallery, a tax threshold is all the money One of the other myths, of course, is around this no- you can make before you actually have to start paying tion of the products and services that we buy today. As the government your fair share to make sure that you I've already mentioned, the vast majority of those prod- can pay for things like health care and education and all ucts and services already have 12 percent tax on them, 7 the other public services that we've come to rely on as percent PST and 5 percent GST — soon to be combined, British Columbians and in fact as Canadians. We con- harmonized if you will, to the 12 percent level. tinued to raise that because it allowed the small business The reality is that for families, over 80 percent of what community to invest into their businesses and to create they purchase today for their household needs is going jobs. to have absolutely no change to it whatsoever in terms Also about jobs is the $2 billion that is freed up in cash of the tax rate that is paid. Again, it's this tremendous flow within the business environment, within the oper- 4744 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
ations of small businesses across British Columbia. The to tell you, is the notion that somehow the HST is bad $2 billion that is freed up as a result of implementing the for small business. It's a silly notion. It's a preposter- HST — that is about jobs, because small businesses have ous notion, and it's one that can only be put forward by dreams of wanting to become big businesses, and the those people who do not have the experience with small way they do that is by hiring people. business. Now, I've had the opportunity to run small They know that they have to be competitive. Any no- businesses, but in the context of the job I have right now, tion that somehow the small business community is I'm speaking to small businesses all the time. going to be able to sit on and keep that $2 billion…. I'm afraid we've got a couple of thousand years of econom- Interjections. ics that absolutely point out that that's just not possible. Because the small business people — they know. They Deputy Speaker: Just a moment, Minister. wake up every morning knowing that part of the thrill Members, would you give the minister the courtesy and excitement of owning a small business is also the of allowing him to continue his speech. Other members very real risk that there's another small business down will have the opportunity to speak as the afternoon goes the street that would like to take their customer. It's part on. of business. Continue, Minister. They know that in order to keep that customer, they have to sell their products and services at a really great Hon. I. Black: I appreciate the fact that the members quality with customer service that they can be proud of opposite have their own point of view and wish to call and at a price point that will allow them to be competi- out remarks during the debating process. It's part of tive. That is exactly why the other provinces that have what makes it a rather spirited place to be, on occasion, implemented this environment have seen a drop in con- in this room. sumer pricing when an HST-type system has been put But if not my point of view, then consider that of into place — because small businesses have the desire to the B.C. Chamber of Commerce. The B.C. Chamber of grow, the desire to serve the customers and the desire to Commerce, by its very definition, represents small busi- be competitive. nesses, not in one little corner of British Columbia or That's why the prices get lowered to the consumers, in another but across the entire province. Tens of thousands the research that has been done in this one area. It's also of small British Columbia businesses are represented by why disposing of the hidden tax, the PST, the very meas- the B.C. Chamber of Commerce. ure that the NDP opposition wishes us to not proceed [1600] with…. They don't want us to get rid of the 7 percent In the long, long list of associations, think tanks, or- PST. Well, I have to tell you, we have to do that because ganizations and businesses that have come out and said: that's all about jobs as well. "Yes, this is good for us. It allows us to compete and grow The other element of the HST is the direct result of our business and hire more people." One of the first or- lowering the cost or the risk, if you will, of investing in ganizations out of the gate were the people at the B.C. businesses by 40 percent — immediately, a 40 percent Chamber of Commerce, and the leadership that they reduction in the cost of investing into companies here in showed so soon after the announcement of our intent British Columbia for those small businesses that are in to go down this path was echoed almost immediately the position of hiring. That is a very, very important part by countless chambers of commerce from across the about job creation, and it's very, very critical. province. The $14.4 billion that's expected to be created over the I think of the Vancouver Board of Trade. They have next ten years as a result of moving to the HST — $14.4 also come out and endorsed it. Are they wrong — the billion of new investment money that's expected to be very people who run businesses every day and who ac- attracted to British Columbia because of us moving to tually provide employment to 2.3 million or 2.4 million the HST. That's about jobs. We can't delay that measure. British Columbians? Is the opposition suggesting that We can't delay the creation of those jobs, and I can tell they're wrong? I suggest that I would defer to those who you that on this side of the House we will not delay the are living that every day. implementation of the most important tax measure that You think of the associations. You hear the drivel British Columbia has seen in decades. from the members opposite about large corporations. If you think of the retail association, the retail asso- Interjections. ciation is predominantly representing small businesses — not big ones, small ones. The retail association in Deputy Speaker: Members. British Columbia has strongly come out in favour of the HST. Hon. I. Black: Now, one of the many things I've heard You think of the technology associations. The tech- in this House, and it makes me shake my head, I have nology association is almost exclusively small business, Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4745
and yet it's one of the ones that's come out and said: up on that, as it does back up the notion that the mem- "This is the right thing for our members and the men bers opposite voted against every major initiative that and women that they employ." has created the 400,000-odd jobs that we're ahead at the You think of the forestry industry. We've heard much moment. in this House about what could or should or can or Again, when I think of the various compelling rea- would or might be done for the forest industry as it goes sons that took us down the path of implementing the through a phenomenal transition in its history. You HST, one of the key ones is the province of Ontario. We know, the forestry industry stands to gain $140 million cannot leave the 384,000 British Columbian small busi- — right back into the operations of the mills and the nesses at a disadvantage to the province of Ontario. companies that run them. It's not something that I'm willing to stand and have In a time when the jobs in that industry are desper- happen, and I'm not willing to stand here and vote in ately wanted by the people who have been in a difficult favour of a motion that is designed to delay this imple- position of being laid off and the families associated with mentation of this important measure. I will not vote for those jobs are looking for opportunity, I would think the something that delays the HST and subsequently leaves members opposite would embrace something that could the 384,000 small businesses in British Columbia at a put the mills back in operation if they're operating one state of disadvantage. shift instead of three or if they're actually in a warm idle. [1605] I would think this would be embraced, and I find it un- Now, I think we should review here the areas where fortunate that it is not by the members opposite. the members opposite have "taken a stand," the various The manufacturing sector in British Columbia — policies that they've so proudly stood against over the again, almost predominantly represented by small last little while. I mean, the policies that they've stood businesses. They are in favour of this. I think the of against since 2001 are policies that have directly helped roadbuilders, the truck loggers — many of those are the economy. one-, two-, five-, six-person operations — by their very They stood against things like the 400,000 jobs since definition, small business. They are in favour of this. 2001. The tax cuts that put about 200,000 additional They are in favour of the HST, because it means that dollars in the pockets of the average British Columbian, they can be more competitive, their likelihood of suc- they voted no, and they were wrong. The 25 percent tax cess is greater, and their ability to retain and grow their cut in the first day that this government took office, they employees grows as well. voted against that, and they were wrong. If you go away from the associations themselves and The hundreds of other tax deduction measures that you go to a broader level, you're faced with an organ- we've put in place since 2001 were voted against time ization such as the CGA Association. Now, the CGA after time after time by the NDP. And despite the fact community — the certified general accountant com- that we have 400,000 extra jobs to show for our efforts, munity — has as their clients almost exclusively small despite one of the worst recessions we've seen in 40-odd business, and they too were one of the first to come out years, they still voted against it and still believed that and say: "For the clients that we have, this is a very im- they understand the economy. It makes me shake my portant step. Don't delay." head. So the notion of a delay being proposed by the motion The gateway investment — $14 billion. The twinning on the floor at the moment has the CGAs — who are of the Port Mann bridge is absolutely something that the ones giving advice to the 384,000 small businesses they were voting against, and we were absolutely vot- across British Columbia — shaking their heads and go- ing for it — right? They voted against it, and they were ing: "What is this NDP opposition thinking? They've got wrong. to cut through the emotion." When the small business tax rate was dropped from Well, I'll tell you, one group that's pretty good at cut- 4½ percent down to 2½ percent, 384,000 small busi- ting through emotion is the economists. They're not nesses in the province stood up and cheered, and the known for being particularly emotional. The reports members opposite in the NDP stood up and voted no. that they produce can be pretty dry reading, but they When it was going to be reduced from 2½ percent to are saying one after the other across this great country 1½ percent and then proposed and now committed to — the brightest minds in the economy are saying — that be eliminated in 2012, the 384,000 small businesses in British Columbia once again is showing the appropriate this province stood up and voted that that is a great idea. leadership in moving to this tax measure. They are say- They cheered. And the members opposite in the NDP ing, "You must not delay in this step," as well. stood up and voted no. So they know it's good for the millions of British I guess where I stand is that I will not support a mo- Columbian workers. We believe that we know what's tion that is designed to stall the $140 million being good for them as well, and I think our track record of eliminated in the small business cost infrastructure that job creation over the last almost decade now backs us they're currently spending filling out duplicate forms for 4746 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
GST and PST. For collecting, administrating, remitting Debate Continued and reporting all the things one needs to do as a law- abiding small business is costing them $140 million a S. Fraser: I'm happy today to stand up to debate the year. You can hire a lot of people for $140 million a year, motion that's been put forward, and I'll read the mo- so I am not going to vote in favour of something that tion into the record. "Be it resolved that Bill 9" — just for delays that step. those tuning in, Bill 9 is the Consumption Tax Rebate I'm not going to vote against something that frees up and Transition Act, which is actually the HST act — "not $2 billion of job-creating cash flow that's inserted into be read a second time now but that the subject matter be the lifeblood of the small business community of this forwarded to the Select Standing Committee on Finance province — $2 billion, $880 million in the construction and Government Services and further that the commit- sector. One of the key measurements of job creation is tee be empowered to invite witnesses to appear before it our construction sector, and $880 million of that $2 bil- to assist in its deliberation." lion is going to be injected into the lifeblood of those Now, I saw this as a friendly motion — friendly, cer- small businesses. tainly, to the Liberal members, who are in some trouble And $210 million in transportation. I mean, trans- now over bringing in Bill 9, over bringing in a tax that portation covers so many different industries, because they said they would not bring in before the election. if you manufacturer something, you've got to get it This motion actually allows them some leeway. It's like from point A to point B. If you're in the forestry sec- an olive branch to Liberal members. tor, you've got to move those trees. The bottom line is Believe me, anyone in this province, unless they've that the $80 million in the mining, oil and gas sector…. been sleeping for a very long time, knows that this tax is I'm not going to vote against something that prevents a job killer, and I'm not talking about the thousands of or slows down the injection of that job-creating invest- people that can lose their jobs in the restaurant industry ment into that area. or the thousands of people that can lose their jobs in the So at the end of the day, I think where I stand on tourism sector. this is pretty obvious. I am not going to vote in favour I'm talking about: it's a job killer for B.C. Liberal of this motion. I will vote and I will continue to vote MLAs, who are in big, big trouble right now because for measures and policies and the steps that are taken, they said they would not bring this tax in. They said that the bold steps that are often needed to ensure that the it would be damaging to the economy, and then days British Columbia economy…. It has enjoyed a place of after the election ministry staff were already working on leadership since 2001, to the astonishment of a lot of bringing in this tax. The public is angry over this. economists to see how quickly that came back from one Now, the motion being proposed is a very benevo- of the worst performing economies to one of the best lent one, I think, from the opposition to the government performing in the country. members, allowing them potentially a chance to recoup I am not going to vote for anything that would put that some of their reputation, maybe some of their integrity in jeopardy. I am not going to vote against something that they lost during the election process over a huge, that would prevent us from retaining our standing as the huge flip-flop about what they said before the election top economy in the country, and I am not going to vote and what they said after the election. against something that has proven to attract jobs. As the Before I continue with where I was going to go with MLA for my community and for the Minister of Small this, I have to make comments on the Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development, job Business, Technology and Economic Development, who creation is job one. This motion works against it, and I spoke before me. The minister said, and this is a good will vote against this motion. one…. As everyone knows, the HST will take $1.9 billion out J. Thornthwaite: Madam Speaker, I want to request of the pockets of British Columbians, average British leave to make some introductions. Columbians and families, on everything from haircuts to vet bills to restaurant meals and hockey helmets and Leave granted. ice time. So it's going to cost…. The way the minister put that cost was he said: "This will be almost $2 billion Introductions by Members freed up and injected into the lifeblood of the economy." What a wonderful spin. J. Thornthwaite: I have four school trustees, actually, As the average British Columbian, who's already from Richmond, friends of mine as well as past col- being faced with massive increases to hydro, to MSP leagues on school board: Linda McPhail, Donna Sargent, payments, to ferry rates, to park fees — you name it…. Debbie Tablotney and Grace Tsang. I would like every- All these public things that should be part of what's paid body to welcome them to the House. for through taxes are going up as fees. While British [1610] Columbians are facing those increases, they're going to Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4747
have to pay 7 percent more — what amounts to $1.9 benefit a few corporate sectors is a big, big change — billion more — on a whole bunch of things. And the probably the largest tax change we've ever seen in the minister says that that's $2 billion that's freed up. It's country and in the history of British Columbia. $2 billion that's picked out of the pockets of British It would not be outrageous to consider talking to Columbians. That's the fact. the people of British Columbia about that, especially This is a friendly motion to go and talk to the people, if you're going to do the complete opposite — like this the public. This is something that the government didn't government did — of what you said you would do dur- do. They did do it. They said they wouldn't bring the ing the election. tax in. At this point, the outrage by the public should The real poll is an election, and this government won be quite clear to the members as they head back to their an election saying that they would not bring in this tax. constituencies. The fact that not only did they say they Now, the people of British Columbia voted in good faith, wouldn't bring in the HST and are now bringing it in I would suggest, based on the fact that the government — a misrepresentation, if there ever was one, to win an wasn't going to bring in this tax. It was in writing, so to election…. This is an opportunity for Liberal members do the opposite days after the election — to start the in a committee, a bipartisan committee, to recoup some process of bringing in the tax that they weren't going to faith and some face here. bring in — is fraught with problems. [1615] This is the solution, because the least the Liberal gov- Liberal members, government members, ministers, ernment can do is to talk to the people, to consult with have been talking about myths and misconceptions about the people about what this will mean, what it will mean the HST. Well, what a wonderful opportunity to actually for hockey parents. We know that ice time will now be consider talking to the people of British Columbia. This taxed. In some municipalities, some regions, this will motion would allow for that to happen. mean a $50,000 increase, say, for minor hockey. That's Madam Speaker, it's been noted that you are a mem- on top of a tax that's going to do everything…. It's go- ber of the legislative Special Committee on Sustainable ing to tax not just ice time; it will tax hockey helmets for Aquaculture. I, too, was a member of that committee. kids. How ludicrous is that? We have, certainly, a tried-and-true mechanism for When you create a tax that can take away the ability addressing things of public interest, for getting input of many families to afford hockey for their kids, when from the public, for clearing up myths and misconcep- you're going to bring that in, you might want to consult tions, if that's the case. Then let the chips fall where with the public first before you do that or with the muni- they may. cipalities that have fixed costs around these rinks. They Right now, that is an option that is being offered to may lose the business of minor league hockey, because the Liberal members here. The Liberal members need some of these minor league hockey organizations will that because they are in trouble here. They have a big not be able to weather that increase, especially when the problem. It was Einstein who said that no problem can Liberal government has also cut grants to sports and for be solved from the same level of consciousness that cre- children. ated it. Well, the level of consciousness that created this [1620] problem was saying one thing to win an election and do- So it is a very reasonable and reasoned approach to ing the opposite. talk to British Columbians, which is what this motion is That mindset has to change, I would suggest, for the about. The minister before me called this a stalling mo- Liberal members. This motion allows the opportunity tion. That's an appalling statement from a minister of and the mechanism to create that change, to actually the Crown. To consult with the public on the most fun- consult with the people of British Columbia. Now, I damental and radical right-wing shift in taxation in the don't know which polls to look at, but somewhere be- history of the province — to consult with the public on tween 88 and 98 percent of British Columbians are that as somehow being a stall tactic is ridiculous. against this tax. There's been talk of fearmongering. Well, for me, this The minister before me and other Liberal members is a very simple topic. Talking to the public, consulting quote some corporate leaders, business leaders, that with the public, about whether or not there is the stom- claim to like the tax, who may be a beneficiary of that tax, ach to weather a $1.9 billion tax increase — that's a very but they do not represent British Columbians. They're a worthwhile thing to do. To talk to the public about that very select group. is not a stall tactic, not in any way. This is something the Now, I believe that all governments, no matter what public deserves because this government has no man- their political stripe, even the extreme right wing, as we date to bring in the HST. have here in this province…. Any government should Their mandate is to not bring in theH ST. They won an listen to the people, not to a select group, a group that election on that promise. Considering that the Liberal has the government ear. Because shifting $1.9 billion government doesn't have a mandate to bring in this tax, onto the backs of British Columbians, the families, to it is certainly not outrageous for them to consult with 4748 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
the public, to inform them about all the things that are grew by an average of 2.1 percent per year under the B.C. going to go up in price. There hasn't been that level of Liberals. It was 2.4 percent the decade before. consultation, not from anyone. There's been no consul- The billions of tax breaks this government has levied tation, nothing. have left us, the treasury, in a deficit position. With all I'll quote from a letter here. "TheU nion of B.C. Indian of that, the growth in the job rate in the economy has Chiefs strongly opposes implementation of the harmon- dropped in the last decade. Manufacturing employment ized sales tax, HST, in British Columbia. It is a regressive grew by 1.6 percent per year under the NDP, the previ- tax that will greatly increase the financial burden ofF irst ous decade. It fell by 0.5 percent per year between 2001 Nations families who are living in poverty, including the and 2008. With the loss of 25,000 manufacturing jobs in working poor." 2009, the province has sucked out an average of 1.9 per- It goes on to say: "As directed by the UBCIC reso- cent of its manufacturing jobs each year of this Liberal lution 2009-41, we have repeatedly contacted both the government's reign. federal and provincial Ministers of Finance to address So when the minister talks about, "This will be a $2 bil- impacts and lack of any substantial consultation process lion injection into job creation," it's hogwash. It's based for the proposed HST." This is on First Nations families on nothing. The facts state otherwise. The minister finds and communities. himself, once again, on the wrong side of the facts. I would think that this represents the position of If the public were allowed to have a discussion about most British Columbians. This is from Grand Chief this tax, then we could have this debate openly. The pub- Stewart Phillip, but it's cosigned by Chief William lic could be informed and involved. They could make Charlie and Chief Robert Chamberlin also, on behalf of the decision of whether or not to bring in this tax. the members of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs. Their The people did make the decision, and they said not opposition to this tax and their concerns about the lack to bring in this tax. That's how they voted in the election, of consultation that this motion will address are the because this government said, as an election plank, that concerns of British Columbians — the vast majority of they would not bring in the HST. British Columbians. We've seen way too much when this government Interjection. makes policy decisions based on contributions, on people that have their ear, on insiders. You know S. Fraser: "That's not true," the member for Parksville- what? They have not done their homework. The min- Qualicum states. Well, I don't know if the member for ister before me and Liberal members speaking on this Parksville-Qualicum has been reading any of the letters issue, on this motion, have suggested that this is go- to the editor lately in his newspaper, but they don't buy ing to increase employment. Where are the statistics his position at all. The people of Parksville-Qualicum on that? feel betrayed by this member. For ten years this government has been cutting cor- Now, for this member to suggest that talking to the porate taxes. When they hired Mintz to do the report public about this tax that they promised not to bring in on the HST, the 12 pages for $12,000, they should to win an election…. If he has a problem with talking to have hired him to quantify: has there been any bene- the public, then he's got a problem with his constituents, fit to British Columbians? Has there been any benefit in because they want to talk about this. The last I saw, they creating jobs or investment in the ten years of cutting have received over half of the petitions required under corporate taxes in this province? They should have had the Vander Zalm initiative, so obviously, there is a prob- him do that study, because they're talking in the wind. lem there for the former Minister of Agriculture and They have no statistics. Lands, the current member for Parksville-Qualicum. They know it's actually been a dismal record. The low It really was too bad that they did not hire Mintz to corporate tax regime that they brag about…. They're actually analyze what corporate tax breaks, endless cor- still bragging about it. They're running a multi-bil- porate tax breaks, do for the economy. I would submit lion-dollar deficit, the largest deficit in the history of that the public would be up for the task of a debate and the province of British Columbia, and they're bragging a discussion about how much tax they want to have about how low they've been able to cut the tax rates. increased. They've cut the tax rates to the point where there is not The $1.9 billion a year for averageB ritish Columbians enough money in the treasury to pay for basic services. is a lot of money. If that money were to go, say, into pro- If I were government, I wouldn't be bragging about that. tecting health care and education — which was another That's bad management. broken Liberal election promise — I'm sure British [1625] Columbians might have that discussion. They could The total employment across the B.C. economy grew weigh whether or not they could afford to pay $1.9 bil- by an average of 2.1 percent per year under the B.C. lion a year. They would like to have that discussion, I Liberals. The total employment across theB .C. economy think. Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4749
Or if they could see that it was going to create jobs political future. I learned something today, and that is — for instance, if the government had negotiated with how angry people are and how fed up they are with both those corporate sectors that are going to be the bene- of them. I have heard people call them cowards and liars. ficiaries of this $1.9 billion of largesse. If the Minister of They will not survive this, and they should not." Finance had got some kind of a deal saying: "Look, you have to create jobs with this, or you have to invest in Deputy Speaker: Member, you can't…. Please with- technology and innovation to prepare us for the future." draw that. But they haven't done that. It is a faith-based massive shift of wealth from those that can afford it the least. S. Fraser: I beg your pardon?
Interjections. Deputy Speaker: If you cannot say it, you cannot quote it, so please withdraw it. S. Fraser: Oh, this is good. I love it when I get heckled, because it means that they're listening. S. Fraser: I withdraw it. I apologize, Madam Speaker. [1630] Thank you for your guidance on this. You know what? They have to go back to their constitu- I guess, suffice to say, that there are a lot of angry encies and explain why they will vote against discussing people out there. It is about a $1.9 billion tax shift onto this tax that they promised not to bring in. They're vot- them, but it is more than that. It is about a feeling of be- ing against discussing it with the public, consulting with trayal. It's palpable. the public. They're calling that a stall. I'm the critic for Community and Rural Development. I would suggest that discussing this with the public I've been travelling the province to various municipal by having Liberal members vote for this bill would be association meetings, and it doesn't matter where you to their benefit. It's not that I'm feeling sorry for them, go in the province, there is a certain solidarity. It's not a because I know the beating they're taking in their con- left- or right-wing issue. It's a right or wrong. stituencies. I know it's probably difficult for them to go This is a government that is bringing in a tax that they home. But if they were to open the doors to discussion suggested they would not bring in. They won an election about this tax, it would go at least some way towards re- based on that. The fact that these members and these establishing some credibility as government. ministers of the Crown would consider a motion to dis- You know what? It doesn't help any government or cuss this tax that wasn't supposed to be brought in with opposition or politician when the credibility of a gov- the public…. How could that be seen as anything threat- ernment is questioned to the extent that it is with this ening to this government? It cannot. taxation shift. I would welcome to hear that explanation from I would note that, as the member for Parksville- government members as they stand up. I'll hand it to Qualicum was making comments earlier, in the government members. They are standing up, and they Parksville–Qualicum Beach News we've got a letter from are speaking on this issue, so that's a good thing. What Duane Round. He's the building chair of the Parksville they need to do is expand that to speak to the people of Lions Housing Society. This is his letter to the editor. British Columbia in a committee system, which we are Sorry, it's an article from the Parksville–Qualicum Beach suggesting here, because we can hear this over and over News: again. "Building chair of the Parksville Lions Housing Society spoke [1635] to council during their committee of the whole meeting Wednes- The people of British Columbia on the ground want day about the development cost charges that had recently come to know what this tax is going to mean, what this $1.9 up. 'We really appreciate all the assistance from the city,' Round billion tax shift is going to mean. They want to know told council, but explained that with the unexpected additional $100,000 cost of the HST and the fact that their funding from B.C. why they may not be able to have their child take part Housing is a set amount to construct the affordable housing com- in hockey, in minor hockey leagues, or in soccer on the ponent, they could be looking at a serious stumbling block." soccer field, because this will affect the fees there too. So I would suggest that Mr. Round would like the discus- it could have dire effects on families, and that discussion sion with his member, and that could be facilitated and should happen. should be facilitated and would be facilitated if a suf- This friendly motion is an olive branch to the Liberal ficient number of Liberal members…. I think it would government members, who are in an awful lot of trouble. only take seven to vote in favour of this friendly amend- There's been no representation from the public to bring ment, this motion, that would allow discussion about in the HST. There is no mandate. This is truly taxation the HST. without representation, and that is why I think the out- Bill Rollier is a store owner, small business owner. rage is there. Parksville–Qualicum Beach News again, April 12, says If the public were ready for such a tax shift, if they the Premier and our MLA "should be very afraid of their thought it was going to be good to pay $1.9 billion 4750 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
more…. To get what? Well, to get less than nothing, be- P. Pimm: I will also stand and take my position to cause this actually reduces the treasury. It's between oppose the amendment that's put forth in front of us $100 million and $200 million a year that the treasury of on this bill. It's very interesting to listen to some of the B.C. will be out because of this tax, because of some of discussion that's taken place to this point. Some of the the exemptions for some of the larger organizations that opposition members…. The member before me ex- manage to get an exemption. plained how we're afraid to go and address the public It actually means that for the opportunity to spend on this issue. I think I want to give you my experience, $1.9 billion more a year out of our pockets, we will have what I've just gone through myself, actually. I'll put that to lose between $100 million and $200 million worth forward to you. of services. The public wants to maybe weigh those op- I don't need to go through a committee stage on this. tions before making a decision that they want this tax I want to go to the public myself directly, and that's what or before changing their minds, because the public has I actually did on the weekend. There's been all sorts of already spoken on that. They said they don't want this information out there now, and a lot of misleading in- tax, and they voted based on that. They votedL iberal be- formation — in fact, a lot of it very close to mistruths, to cause the Liberal government said they wouldn't bring be quite honest. in the HST. It's not even on the radar screen. This weekend I had the opportunity to go and meet Here we are, months later, debating this. I mean, the with an entire trade show in my community. There were bill is already coming forward. It looks like it's a done probably about 12,000 people that went by that I had an deal. It is not a done deal. The public can stop this. The opportunity to talk with and discuss the HST with. It public has the right to discuss whether or not this is a was my sole reason for being there, to go and address good tax. If it is a good tax, as some of the members my constituents and see what the major concerns are. from the government side are saying, then they should Certainly, there are concerns. No question about it. As have no problem with the open discussion with the you probably all well know, I've got lots of opposition to public. As a matter of fact, it would be to their bene- this in my area, and part of that is how it all came about fit. If they're so sure this is a great tax, great enough to and where it comes from and whatnot. bring it in as a complete 180 U-turn before and after You know, what I found…. Over the weekend I had the election, and if it's so good, then why won't they an awful lot of people that came up to me and said: "It's allow a discussion with the public? Why won't they do nice to see you out here and defending this position. I'm that? glad that you're out in the front and on the front line and The fact that this government is not speaking in talking to us about it." favour of this friendly motion to bring this to com- In fact, I did a bit of a presentation where I had done mittee for discussion so the public can be involved, up a little PowerPoint, and I had that rolling as we were the fact that they're fighting against that brings more going. People would stop and have a look at it and see suspicion to the government members. They aren't some of the facts that were actually out there. It was willing to go to the public with this issue. They're will- quite interesting. They would watch for a couple or ing to quote some of their friends in business and stuff three minutes, and that was long enough to get a little in corporate land that are going to actually be the interest, and then we'd get a chance to talk about it. It beneficiaries of $1.9 billion, but they're not willing to was amazing, as we talked, how things changed a little discuss it with the other 80 percent or 90 percent of bit. British Columbians. As they started to get a little more information and Those are the people that matter, because they repre- some truth around the matters and how it was going to sent the public, and this is a public interest issue. This affect them, it was actually quite nice to see how they is the largest tax shift in the history of the province of went from being pretty disturbed to being not so bad British Columbia. It is part of a concerted pattern by with it when they started understanding the whys — this government to concentrate the wealth into the why we have done things — and the different changes hands of very few at the expense of everybody else, and that came into effect to allow us to move forward and to everybody else deserves a voice on that. They were de- make some decisions around this sort of thing. nied that voice through the election process. They voted One of the things that I want to just state before you in good faith, believing that there would be no HST go too far…. I'm assuming that back in 1948, when PST brought in. was first brought in, I bet you there were all kinds of That was one of the main reasons many people cast petitions against PST, because nobody likes a new tax. a ballot, and they deserve their chance now to address Nobody likes a tax of any description. They don't like a a parliamentary committee, a legislative committee, tax that changes anything or anything at all like that. that is being suggested through this motion. It is about But it's pretty easy to get a petition going. All you have democracy. to do is have some people with opposition to it, send [1640] some misleading rumours out — that it's going to cost Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4751
people $2,100 per household, that sort of thing — and Well, you're there taking it on the chin because — then get an opposition member that maybe doesn't like guess what — it is the right thing for British Columbia. you. He gets a pretty good campaign started, and the It is the right thing for our constituents, and we're there next thing you know there are a lot of folks that are out to defend it. I had no problem defending it, because it is there spreading misinformation. the right thing to do. When you actually do get your chance to have your I have a presentation to do tomorrow, in fact. I did turn…. And I had my chance. I have to tell you that the some research on this presentation for tomorrow. It's trade show went on for 24 hours this weekend, and I in a care home in my community, and I'm going to be spent 19 hours of them there talking to my constituents. going to the care home tomorrow. I had the operators I must say that by the end of that 19 hours I actually felt of the care home come in last week, and I got some in- like I had gained a lot of ground, and I think that a lot formation. I talked to them a little bit about how many of people went out of that knowing a lot more about the people would meet the $20,000 threshold so that they HST and the information surrounding it. So I did deal could get their full rebates. with those folks one on one. It was interesting enough. The executives that were When they started to hear the facts, their minds def- sitting at the table said: "Oh, well, very few people would initely changed. When they started to hear about the actually meet that threshold." But the manager actually myths that are out there, and when I told them to think said: "Really, that's not quite right. About 95 percent of about what that $2,100 actually means, to get to $2,100 the people in the care home would meet that $20,000 worth of expenses…. threshold." [1645] So I decided, because I'm going to this thing tomor- The people in this room, all the opposition members, row…. I thought, well, why not go out and do a budget know that you can't get to $2,100, because the last time and get their budgets and do a budget calculation so that I talked about this, I gave them an invitation. If any one I know exactly what I'm talking about, so that they know of them could get to $2,100, I'd take them out and wine they're true numbers and they know it's going to be ac- and dine them at their favourite restaurant. I haven't curate. I got some numbers back, and a typical person even had anybody come back and ask me about that. in this care home gets $17,721 a year on their pensions. Obviously, they don't like to go to fine restaurants, or That's what a typical pensioner at a care home actually they know they can't get to $2,100 — one or the other. gets. I'm not sure which one it is. After all is said and done, they end up with $143 a Anyhow, to get to $2,100, first off, you have to spend month left in their pocket. That was all the expenses that $30,000 worth of PST exemptions — items that are pres- they showed me. They gave me a list of expenses. These ently PST-exempt. You have to spend $30,000 additional are their numbers; these are not my numbers. They ac- dollars. Anybody can do the math on that — it's very tually took the budget challenge. No one in here would simple — but when you just say it fast — $2,100. take the challenge, but they took the challenge. You'd be surprised how many people came by my booth Lo and behold, when the numbers were all run and said: "The reason I can't support you and can't sup- through this with the added HST on these things — port this decision is because you're charging me $2,100. $237 was going to be additional HST costs. By the time You're going to cost me $2,100." You start talking to them they got all their rebates back, that single person in the about it, and they realize: "Holy cow, I can get a golf mem- care home is actually going to be $107.78 ahead. That bership. I can go to a restaurant, $1,000 a month. I can go now means that that person has got $107.78 in their to gyms. I can go to curling. I can get all the memberships pocket due to HST. for everything I want, and I couldn't even get up half of Now I'm wondering who's going to tell them that that — anywhere close to half of that." you'll have to take that money out of my pocket now. All of a sudden they start responding in a different Because we're bringing in HST, they've got money in manner, and they start saying: "You know, maybe this their pocket, and I'm going to be able to prove that to isn't so bad, and maybe I will get a little more informa- them tomorrow. tion from you." You give them more information, and Another girl came by during the trade show and she you talk to them for a little while. said: "Boy, oh, boy; $2,100 you guys are going to cost me You start to reason with them, and pretty soon they're for this tax. I'm disgusted with you." I said: "Well, pay starting to think: "Hmm. Maybe some of the arguments attention, and let's go through." you're putting forth aren't so bad, and maybe they're ac- [1650] tually accurate. Maybe there's some truth to all this stuff She took the time, and she listened to this, and guess that you're talking about. If there wasn't some truth to what. She was a single mother, she had three children, all this stuff that you're talking about, why would you be and she's going to get $230 rebate for each one of her at this trade show taking it on the chin in front of 12,000 children and herself — $920. So I said: "Okay, now that people?" we figured out that you're going to get a $920 rebate, why 4752 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
don't you sit down and take this budget challenge with for Ontario, and it only makes sense we do it for as many me, then?" She said, "Okay," and so off we did. others as we can at the same time." We went and did the budget challenge. By the time it When you start thinking about it, they always said: was all settled, she ended up with a rebate of $625. It's "No, it has to be 13 percent." Now they're going to change what she is going to net. So she says: "Well, I have to go that. They're going to allow the flexibility to make it 12 down and get my name off that petition. I just signed percent, or whatever number you want to pick. that petition on the other end of the rink." Previously it's GST. HST is going to be the same. So my question is: who is going to come up with the Whatever is exempt for GST will be exempt for HST. $625 for that gal? Who's going to pay her now if we get But no, now this year around they've changed it a little rid of this HST? I don't think that any of the members bit. We were allowed to take 5 percent of the total pack- here are going to pay her. The bottom line is that you're age and customize it the way we wanted. It allowed us definitely going to do better with theH ST implemented, to exempt the gasoline, diesel fuels, home heating fuels, for the lower-income people. children's car seats and books, women's hygiene prod- But that wasn't good enough. A lot of the folks still ucts and children's clothes. We were allowed to tailor had some discussion. They said: "Yeah, but you guys it for our own needs, and that certainly makes a big didn't present this properly. You didn't tell us the truth. difference. You fudged the whole thing, you know. You just didn't Then, of course, also to sweeten the pot and to finally bring it in right." make it to a point where it's worthwhile bringing it to Okay. I said: "Well, you know the truth is that things do the caucus and to the rest of the members, they throw change." I said: "Take a look at what happened through in an additional $1.6 billion. Well, that's a whole year's the budget process." We ran a budget that said we were deficit. You have to take that into consideration. going to be $495 million in deficit. Guess what. Things [1655] changed. All of a sudden the resource revenues go down I mean, with all these facts — and this is what I was by $2 billion. The price of natural gas goes from $11 to explaining to people in the trade show — that are put $2. Guess what. You're not going to have the money in in front of you, you've got to look at it at least. That's there. So there are a couple of things you can do. what our Finance Minister did. He looked at it. I give You can have a deficit budget. That's something that him credit for looking at it, and I supported him on it this side of the building doesn't agree with. Or you can as well. I'm going to continue to support him, because initiate a few different things. So the Finance Minister I think that it's the right thing to do. It's the right thing gets a chance to go over to the first ministers conference, for us now, and it's going to be the right thing for us in and they start talking about it. Guess what. HST hap- the future. It's definitely going to be good forB .C. in the pens to come up. Well, HST doesn't come up. It's always long term. No question about that. on the agenda with our Finance Committee that goes Then the next discussion I had with the folks in the around the province every year. They talk about HST. trade show…. As the member for Chilliwack explained to everybody in this House earlier, every year HST has been on the Deputy Speaker: Member, if I might remind you to agenda. Every year the B.C. Chamber of Commerce has talk to the amendment. endorsed the HST as part of the budget presentation. Every year they endorse it. They've been endorsing it P. Pimm: This is to the amendment, hon. Speaker, be- since 2001. Every year they've endorsed the same thing. cause the urgency of it is…. When you get out to talk It's been their position, and they're not going to move to your constituents, it allows you to show them the ur- off that position. gency behind this. That's exactly what we were doing. Every year our Finance Minister takes a look at it. So they told me: "Well, there's one more fact that I "Well no, everything is going along pretty good. Really really don't like, and the fact is that it's going to be an there are not too many reasons to make any changes." additional tax. Whether it's $200 more or $500 more, it's All of a sudden you get a drop in your revenue, and now going to be an additional tax." I said: "Well, you know maybe we do have to do something. Maybe we do have what? I do agree with you on that. Any additional tax is to change. something that this government doesn't like." When you're at the conference, the federal govern- I went through that a little bit with them. I said: "You ment's…. We all know that Ontario is coming on. They know, this government has a pretty good record on announced in March that they're coming on stream tax. In the 1990s the corporate tax was 16½ percent on for July. The minister says to all the provinces: "Well, if corporations, all the way through the '90s. On small you all want to come on board at the same time, we'll business that tax was 10 percent all the way through the sweeten the pot a little bit for you. We'll make it interest- 1990s. Meanwhile Alberta was sitting there at 5 percent. ing. We'll make it so that…. You know, it makes it better Well, guess what happens. It doesn't take long to figure for us as feds to sweeten the pot because we're doing it out that if you're paying half the tax in Alberta, you're Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4753
starting to move. That's what happened. The businesses Heating your homes. They couldn't believe that heat- started moving out of our area just by the droves. They ing your homes is going to cost nothing more, because were moving over to Alberta." everybody had been telling them that was going to be They said: "Okay, well that's great. You looked after the one of the things they had to do. There was going to be big corporations, you looked after the business, but what a tax on groceries. did you do for us? What did you do for this little guy?" When I explained the truth to them, it was amazing I showed them. I said: "You know what? We reduced the outcome and the respect I got for standing there and taxes for everybody. In 2001 your taxes were as much explaining the truth to them. I think the truth has to be as 35 percent to 40 percent higher in British Columbia told, and I for one am not afraid to stand up and tell the than they were right next door in Alberta." truth to the people. I said: "Today we are now the lowest. We're the low- This is going to be a good tax. This is going to be good est in Canada." If you think about this now, just keeping for British Columbians. It's going to be good for all of it in perspective, in the 1990s the business tax and the us in the long term. It's going to be good for industry. I corporate tax was the highest in Canada — in British know for sure that as we come through this tough time Columbia. Tenth out of ten. The highest inC anada. Now, that we've got right now and as the economy starts to after this next coming year, we're going to be down to pick up, I can assure you that British Columbia is going zero for small business tax. Corporate tax is going to be to lead all of us through the tough times. We are going to down to 10 percent, and so now we are going to be the lead the parade into the next go-round here, and that's lowest for corporate and for small business. starting to happen already. With that, Madam Speaker, From the worst in Canada to the best in Canada in ten I'm going to call it good enough. years. That's a pretty good tax record to stand behind. It really is a pretty good tax record to stand behind. D. Routley: I rise to speak in favour of this referral But I said it goes further than that. Individual taxes motion. The motion seeks to refer the content of this bill too — same thing. Here we are in 2001 — and I had a to the Finance Committee for further consideration, and nice little presentation showing 2001, 2010 taxes, and in it might then even be able to be debated and discussed every bracket they reduced from at least…. They were 35 by British Columbians. That would be the purpose of percent less, and now in most cases they were as much this referral. The referral is brought forward as a good- as 50 percent lower. I showed them that this government faith amendment in an attempt to give government an absolutely does not like taxes, whether it be on corpora- opportunity to square things with the people of B.C. tions, whether it be on small businesses, whether it be George Orwell said that "in a time of universal de- on the general public. ceit, to tell the truth is a revolutionary act." So we offer You know, they got it. When they saw all the tax re- the opportunity for the B.C. Liberals to become revolu- ductions that we've had over the last ten years, they tionaries by accepting this referral and going to British understood. They understood that we were doing the Columbians and telling the truth. Clearly, in the election right thing for them. They understood that we have campaign, that didn't happen. This amendment to refer gone the right direction, and they understood that: "You to committee seeks to give this Legislature a chance to know what? They're continuing to try and look after consider why the B.C. Liberals thought it was necessary us. They're looking out for us, looking out for the small to break a promise such as the one they made to the guy." homebuilders of B.C. when they promised not to im- They understood that when we reduce the taxes on pose the HST. business and on corporations, you're actually allowing They answered a questionnaire from the restaurant those businesses and corporations to supply you the industry, which was also offered to our party in the jobs so that you can go to work, so that you're going to opposition. We answered by saying that no, we won't have a paycheque. They understood the urgency. harmonize the PST with the GST. The government said [1700] that no, they wouldn't. Imagine that, Madam Speaker. It was very, very interesting. It was probably the best They gave several reasons why. They expanded on weekend I ever had in my life. Was it the easiest? No, their answer to say that it would cost British Columbians it wasn't the easiest. But at least I was there, and I was our tax autonomy and that it would be unfair to the dis- doing exactly what the opposition was saying: get out advantaged, that prices would rise and that it was not a there and talk to the folks and deliver the message. I did good thing for our economy. Suddenly after the election, deliver the message, and they understand the urgency mere days it seems, negotiations began to do exactly behind it. that. As we're going through the process, when I started This referral to committee gives the government a telling them stuff like prescriptions…. Prescriptions chance for sober second thought, a chance for the B.C. aren't going to cost you anything more due to HST. Liberals to consider not continuing a pattern of deceit, Gasoline in your vehicle — absolutely nothing more. which included other election promises quickly broken, 4754 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
like, "We will not sell B.C. Rail," quickly followed up by shareholders will benefit, but what about the people of the sale of B.C. Rail, "We will not tear up the contracts of B.C.? The people of B.C. will be the ones who pay for HEU workers," quickly followed up by the act of tearing that benefit. up those contracts. Again and again and again we see this philosophy from the B.C. Liberals to transfer the wealth of this [L. Reid in the chair.] province upward to those who least need it and off and away from those who most need it through the cutting This referral would give the government an opportun- of programs, through the increasing of fees and taxes to ity to avoid harming the people of B.C. They harmed ordinary people and to the relief to their funders and the people of B.C. when they broke their promise of not their donors and those huge corporations that are the tearing up the HEU contracts, found seven times by the base of the B.C. Liberals. International Labour Organization to be unlawful and We have been told so many things about this. Clearly, found by our Supreme Court of Canada to be unlawful it's a regressive tax. Clearly, it impacts people who are and costing the B.C. purse millions of dollars. on the margins more than others. I think that was rec- That broken promise costB .C. millions of dollars, and ognized by Gord Fuller when he wrote to the Nanaimo it caused the largest mass firing of women in the history Daily News. He said: of Canada. Referring this bill and accepting this motion "The Premier and the B.C. Liberal's push to implement the har- would give the government an opportunity not to repeat monized sales tax is yet another kick to the posterior of the poor that kind of costly mistake. and disadvantaged in British Columbia. After cutting funding to children and families, then removing gaming grants from many [1705] programs that offer services allowing people to move forward in Well, as we heard in the old Lucy show, this government life, the HST shows an utter contempt and disregard not just for has a lot of explaining to do — a lot of explaining to do. the poor but for all citizens of B.C." They say in politics that when you're explaining, you're Now, that's one of our voters speaking, friends. You…. losing, and they're doing a lot of explaining. They're ex- plaining why it's the best thing for the B.C. economy. Deputy Speaker: And the member is speaking to the They're explaining who is supporting them and why they amendment? took this decision. What they aren't explaining to British Columbians is how they could make a promise not do D. Routley: Yes, Madam Speaker. I am giving the something and follow that up with a reversal. government the reasons they need to step back and Back to George Orwell: "In a time of universal deceit, reconsider, because in reconsidering, in referring the to tell the truth is a revolutionary act." So be revolution- motion, these very people would have a chance to ad- aries, I say to the government. Tell the truth. dress our Select Standing Committee on Finance. These We are told that the PST was such a disadvantage. people could have a chance to have their views heard. Well, our neighbours to the south, Washington State, They didn't get that chance during the election cam- have a state sales tax. They haven't harmonized their paign. In fact, they were misled by those promises not to taxes. There are several other provinces that haven't. do this, not to bring in a harmonization of our provin- But that's debating the merit of the tax, when I think cial sales tax with the GST. what is paramount in people's minds is the fact that they So here we have Gord Fuller pointing out how unfair weren't told the truth. They were misled. Every Liberal this is. Gord Fuller would have a chance to come and member, every candidate — even who was defeated — correct the government's perception of what they're do- went to the doorstep and campaigned with a deceptive ing, remind them of who they work for, who they actually set of promises. represent — the people of B.C. Yes, corporate success is They promised the restaurant industry not to do this important, but their first obligation is to the public interest — in writing. They promised the homebuilders that it in this province. This referral would give them a chance to wasn't on their radar screen. The Premier campaigned remind themselves or be reminded of that fact. against harmonizing sales taxes for ten years. Suddenly [1710] this epiphany when they're faced with the massive $3.2 It was recognized by June Ross when she wrote to the billion deficit: they needed cash. They needed cash to Nanaimo News Bulletin. She says: fractionally make up for their other broken promise "Of course, the HST will benefit the large corporations. Can during the election campaign — that the deficit would someone tell me how it will benefit this retired senior citizen? The last time I added up the charges that would now be levied, I only be $495 million. believe my pension will shrink in the realm of $1,000 per year." We've heard that this will free up $2 billion, and yet That should remind the last speaker of the budget test, we're told that it's revenue-neutral. What it will do is free because this person has obviously taken it. She sees up $2 billion from the biggest corporations and hand $1,000 a year in increased expenses. it into the pockets of their shareholders. Maybe for- "This tax will wreak havoc on seniors, the disabled — mentally est industry owners, Third Avenue, all those New York and physically — families, the poor and small businesses. The Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4755
struggle will become how to pay for the rent or mortgage or to There's an anger growing, and we see it everywhere choose eating or purchasing medications and paying bills." throughout the province. There's an anger that our That is the voice of a British Columbian. That is an ac- democracy isn't working for us, that we are not being curate portrayal of the way people are feeling about this represented accurately and honestly. We cannot accept deceptive and cynical move. in a democracy a government that is won through de- Then, also addressing fairness, Ken Johnson writes ception. We cannot accept that. Democracy has its to the Parksville-Qualicum Beach News: "People, please remedies. wake up. The consequences of the Liberal government Thankfully, that cynicism hasn't come to the point bringing in the harmonized sales tax will be catastrophic where people are resigned to accepting a deceitful pres- to the disposable incomes of the middle class, the lower entation by a party seeking government. Thankfully, middle class, the poor and the disadvantaged." that anger reminds us that British Columbians still care These people are not to be dismissed with the shak- enough about democracy that they are prepared to re- ing heads on the other side. Their supporters, the heads spond when they are not told the truth. When they are of the hugest corporations which will benefit…. Of misled, they rise up in anger. We see it in the 82 percent course we would expect them to say that it's a wise move. to 90 percent rejection of the HST. They're the ones benefiting. But the people paying the [1715] price are the ordinary people of British Columbia, and That rejection isn't going to be convinced by all the they're calling out. They're crying out, and this govern- explaining that's being done by the government mem- ment isn't hearing them. bers. That can only be convinced once this government Fees and taxes to ordinary people have been driven honestly stands before the people and has the discussion up. This transfer of the burden of supporting our soci- that they failed to have during the election campaign. ety and our services has been loaded onto the backs of This government, with its philosophy of transferring ordinary people, and those who have been the biggest wealth upward in our society…. That's okay. If that's donors and those who have taken the most benefit from your philosophy, fine, but present it to the people. At our province are running away to the bank. least have the courage to present it to the people, and let MSP premiums — the most regressive form of tax- the people vote knowing what they're voting for. It's a ation — have risen, doubled, and more than doubled system of picking winners and losers. It was recognized now. Ferry fares, which we all depend on, on our coast, by Pirjo Raits, who writes to the Nanaimo Bulletin. I for economic development as well as just an equitable apologize to Pirjo Raits, if I have mispronounced his right to travel in our province, to have healthy commun- name. ities. Health fees. All of these have gone through the roof, "People feel disenfranchised and unheard." The raw and these are the things that affect ordinary people, the material of cynicism — isn't it? "They are becoming in- people of B.C., the people this government should be creasingly frustrated at the lack of accountability on the representing. part of government and the lack of a public consultation This is why we need to refer this bill to committee. exercise. When they see the distance between those in This is why these people deserve a voice. They didn't power and those on the ground, it leads to a feeling of have that voice in May during the election. Now we helplessness, probably not unlike the peasants just be- find out that three days after the election the negotia- fore the French Revolution." tions began to impose this tax on them without their I mean, it's pretty clear. The members in the gov- approval. ernment, with their lofty connections to the heads of All of this points to a lack of fairness and a lack of corporations who are benefiting from this and their principles, a lack of integrity, a government that oper- contentment with their approval, had better get ready ates without integrity, a government that has lost any for the distinct expression of disapproval in this prov- shred of credibility when it comes to trustworthiness ince as resistance to this betrayal grows. It's not going with the people of B.C. This leads to cynicism. away, Members — not before you go away. It's staying, Cynicism is a booming commodity in British but you're not. This government is not staying, because Columbia. It grows in between the words of unfulfilled democracy has its remedy for deceit. and broken promises. That's what's caused the cynicism Then our Finance Minister says that he didn't know in this province and the disenchantment with public about Ontario. He didn't know that they were consid- process. This kind of cynical betrayal of the voters of ering the HST. He didn't know that they were consulting B.C. is what we are trying to prevent. with the entire province of Ontario. Well, that's an ad- We are trying to give people the voice they need to mission of incompetence. So pick your poison. It's either convince their government, if their government is lis- dishonest or it's incompetent — one of the two. Either tening, that they do not want this HST to be imposed way it's a condemnation of this government, and people on them. That is the bottom line, and that bottom line are condemning them. People are condemning them for needs to be met by this government. what they've done. 4756 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
They didn't have the discussion. The deficit, $495 mil- lost touch, but they are fearful of British Columbians, lion — boom! — over $3 billion. Now we find out that because they know that if they displayed the truth of the Premier was warned about plummeting revenue. their agenda they would be swept out of power. These are things that destroy people's faith in our sys- If they had stood at the doorsteps and told British tem, and referring this bill to committee would give the Columbians, "You know what? We're going to do this government a chance to hear from people and consider to you — okay? After the election, we're going to take changing their direction. The homebuilders and the res- $2 billion from the biggest corporations. It will benefit taurant owners were betrayed. This is the action of a mostly shareholders in New York, London, wherever. weak government. We're going to transfer it onto the backs of mostly the A weak government fails to protect the people from middle class and lower middle class and small business," harm. This government is exposing the people to harm. how do you think that would go over? We need to refer this bill, and we need to support this "Are you going to vote for me?" No. Over 80 percent of motion so that the government can consider welling up people have rejected it, in large measure because it was enough courage to do the right thing. It's a weak govern- hidden from them. It's the ultimate hidden tax. It was ment that only satisfies the demands of those powerful hidden from the people — amazing. So if the govern- corporations that have supported it and ignores the ment doesn't have the courage of its convictions, it can pleas of the people it is elected to represent. That's a defeat this motion. If it has the courage of its conviction, weak government. it will stand before the people and have a discussion This as a tax policy is regressive. It affects the most about what this really means and listen to the people of vulnerable. We had the Minister of Tourism, Culture B.C., listen to all these people that I've read here, to their and the Arts say: "Well, I was lobbied by McDonald's, words. They deserve to be heard. and I told them, 'Well, what is 7 percent on a $7 meal? Tourism. Well, we just held the Olympics, and It's no big deal, 49 cents. Who won't go there?'" everybody is proud of what Canadians did. But this gov- He rewards the corporate leaders with a 1 percent ernment…. We had a Premier, who so wanted to own gain, and that's supposed to be the magic panacea for the Olympics, stalking the torch around B.C. It was dis- investment in British Columbia. They pat themselves on graceful, really. It was disgraceful that the Olympics, the the back. They wave flags: "Look what we've done. We've most…. incented investment." Yet when it's ordinary people who are having to spend $7 on a meal at McDonald's, some- Interjections. how 49 cents isn't going to impact their choices. That's ridiculous. That's a ridiculous statement. You D. Routley: Oh, we were the ones who applied for the know what? If you have that philosophy that tax policy Olympics. will incent investment and that tax policy will disincent investment, then apply it to the people too. You've raised Deputy Speaker: Member. Member. so many fees on people. You've raised their taxes so much. But the people don't have a choice, do they? They D. Routley: Madam Speaker, I believe we, the NDP, don't have the voice of the forest industry. They don't were the ones who made…. have the voice of the government's friends. [1720] Deputy Speaker: Member, I will bring you back to Well, Susan Barcham, the director of corporate de- consideration of the amendment. velopment for Oak Bay Marine Group, recognizes it. She says: "Everybody knows it's an incredibly uncer- D. Routley: Absolutely. tain time financially." Noting that the HST was brought Tourism. The Olympics were meant to benefit tour- in without consultation, she explained: "Profit margins ism, and what do they do? They turn around and put a are already very slim, and Oak Bay has been attending burden on the tourism industry. How much sense does meetings talking about what resorts are going to be open this make? next year." It doesn't make any sense unless you come from the She said that the announcement demonstrates a lack perspective that it's a government that didn't tell the of sensitivity to tourism, just as the Tourism Minister truth about this tax or about the deficit and then was displays a lack of sensitivity to tourism and to people faced with the horrible realization, before the election, who eat $7 meals, as though 49 cents doesn't mean that the deficit was going to be much higher. anything to them. That's really sad, and we see this dis- They needed to cushion that blow. So they decided connection from the people, which was referred to by that they could do it by harmonizing the sales tax and Mr. Pirjo Raits, that in fact they've lost touch. by furthering this agenda to transfer costs onto ordinary The government has completely lost touch with the people, the same people who have suffered under their experience of British Columbians. They not only have policies when it comes to resource management. Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4757
That's why we need to give this government a chance Premier is…. The Liberal Party — 64 percent of British to hear those people. We need to let them be heard. They Columbians believe they're arrogant. So we could make weren't heard when the government deregulated the a one-day turnaround. The people of B.C. could, in one forest industry, so they lost the benefit of their resour- moment, turn around…. ces. We need to let them be heard before more costs are transferred onto their backs. Deputy Speaker: Member, I've now cautioned you Yes, a government that would take these actions, that three times. You do know that you're not able to do in- would decide that it's permissible and acceptable…. directly what is not possible directly in this chamber. They even called it the best thing they could do, to make There will be no further warnings. this transfer from those who benefit the most onto those who face the biggest struggle. It marks the face of a weak D. Routley: Absolutely, Madam Speaker. government. We have a weak government in B.C. that Let's look at some more numbers, then, in order to needs to take another look. support the notion that this motion needs to be sup- We on this side stand with the people of B.C., and we ported. Support the notion that the motion should be are trying to give this government a chance to recon- supported. Some 82 percent of British Columbians, as sider. We want to do more than that. We want to give the the smallest measure, are opposed to the HST. B.C. Liberals a chance to save themselves. Imagine. I'm We live in a democracy. This motion of referral would sure that they're surprised. allow the government to meet the test and would allow [1725] the government to listen. We want to give our Premier a chance to save him- We have a circumstance here. When do you have 82 self. What a surprise. What a surprise, because I'm sure percent of people on one side or another of the issue? they've read the polls. The Premier — 72 percent of And that's the smallest number of any poll. I've never British Columbians say that the Premier is arrogant; 56 seen it. Have any of the members on the other side seen percent of British Columbians say that the Premier is it? Maybe in their own ridings 82 percent of people might secretive; 55 percent…. be opposed to them now. This motion, if supported, would give the government the opportunity to answer 82 Deputy Speaker: Member, are you addressing the percent of British Columbians — at least to stand and ex- amendment? plain. It would give them a chance to communicate. One of the Coquitlam–Port Moody members on the D. Routley: Absolutely. The amendment would give a other side said that the purpose of this place is to com- chance for the Premier to reverse these numbers. municate. Well, the ultimate communication should have occurred during the election campaign. It didn't. That's Deputy Speaker: I will draw you back to considera- why people are so upset. Any amount of explaining of tion of the amendment. the merits or demerits of this tax or that tax won't answer the core question. It won't address the real problem. D. Routley: Absolutely. The Premier, if he comes We want to give the government another chance to into this House as soon as I sit down and takes the floor address the real problem, and that is deception, be- and says, "You know what? We're going to support this trayal of an election promise. Once you've done that and amendment because — you know what? — 72 percent once you repeat that and it becomes a pattern, then the of the people think I'm arrogant, and I need to turn that people become cynical, angry and disengaged, and you around…." threaten the value and the health of our democracy by You know, the amendment would give the Premier this taking such a cynical act. chance in one move to come in here and say to the 55 This motion, if supported, would give this govern- percent of British Columbians who think he's dishonest: ment at least one more chance to listen to the people of "No, I'm truthful, and I will truly give you a chance…. B.C. — the tourism industry, the restaurant industry, the seniors of the province, the people who advocate for the Deputy Speaker: Member. disadvantaged in our province, those without housing. These are the people who need to be heard in order for D. Routley: Yes? this government to come to its senses. This government has lost its sense. This government Deputy Speaker: Parliamentary language is what I has lost its sense of democracy. It isn't good enough to expect. just stand in front of people and say: "We know best." [1730] D. Routley: Absolutely, and I think the dishon- If you believe you know best, then your job in a dem- esty…. I'm not making an accusation, but the people of ocracy is to convince enough people that you do. Hiding B.C. have judged, that 55 percent, that they feel that the your plans doesn't suffice. 4758 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
This motion would give them another chance, al- up with their Member of Parliament. But it's not really beit belated, to speak to British Columbians, to allow a subject to debate it here. That law belongs to some- British Columbians to speak to them — for them to body else. hear the 82 per cent minimum number of British Furthermore, I find it faintly offensive that the NDP Columbians who are opposed to this tax. And then, would urge us to take a consultation on a fundamen- perhaps, give them that explaining time — that time tal matter of economic policy of the people such as when they can perhaps convince enough people that reducing the PST to zero when this is the people's pal- this is a good idea. ace. This is the House of the people. This is the forum So far, they have failed miserably. They have displayed with democratically elected people of all points of view, themselves to be a weak and arrogant government — and I find the idea that we're incapable of debating this out of touch. We need to give them the opportunity to matter right here and now but have to take it into the rescue themselves. Supporting this motion would give ballrooms and high school gymnasiums of the province British Columbia the opportunity to rescue its democ- faintly offensive. racy from betrayal. [1735] On the amendment. Here's why I think that defeat- R. Sultan: I'm delighted to speak on the motion of the ing the amendment would be a good thing — what I opposition member for Port Coquitlam amending Bill 9, advocate. Three good reasons. If the amendment suc- the Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act of the ceeds, it might just keep the PST, so we would end up government. Just to remind us all on the motion, which with double taxation. I don't think that's a very good we all try very hard to speak to: "Be it resolved that Bill 9 economic plan. Secondly, if the NDP plan succeeds, it not be read a second time now but that the subject mat- would cast in doubt the extensive simplification of the ter be forwarded to the Select Standing Committee on point-of-sale tax collection. Finance and Government Services and further that the Clearly, for many months now, since it was clear that committee be empowered to invite witnesses to appear Ottawa had put the HST into law, companies and organ- before it to assist in its deliberation." izations, retailers and indeed tax accountants throughout So what are we debating here? We're debating an the province have been at work sorting out the proced- amendment to the law eliminating the provincial sales ures of adopting this new simplified tax to be collected tax. That's what we're debating in thisH ouse. We are not at point of sale. The rationalization of our own internal debating the adoption of the harmonized sales tax. That government organization and the diminishment of the decision was made six months ago in a capital city about wage bill around here, paid by the taxpayers to the tune 2,500 miles that way by the Parliament of Canada, and of $30 million to $50 million would halt. it's now the law of Canada. More importantly, it would bring to a shuddering halt Whether we pass Bill 9 amended or whether we pass the estimated rationalization of the duplicate tax sys- the amendment to Bill 9, will it make any difference to tem — GST and PST — now operational in the world the federal government? I don't see why it should. If B.C. out there, a duplicate two–tax return effort that's been wants to double its sales tax and not pass this bill, they'd estimated to cost small business people, large business probably say: "Well, that's your decision out there on the people and others $150 million a year — a straight, west coast. We always wondered about you folks." deadweight loss in inefficiency. So what we're debating is whether to remove a 7 per- We would revert to a sales tax system with some 150 cent sales tax in B.C. That's the debating point here — or different categories.A s my faithful assistant tried to sort whether, as has been proposed by amendment, it should out what it actually meant — as, rightly, so many people be sent to committee for, shall we say, an indefinite con- asked — and as you start digging into each of those 150 sultation with the public. categories, you can easily find 50 or 60 pages of instruc- Apparently, the NDP doesn't like the idea of elim- tions. It has, through the accumulation of well-meaning inating the 7 percent sales tax. They want to take that tax-twiddling over the years, become an administrative decision to the people. I suppose the question for the nightmare. consultation they propose could be, for example: "Do It's no more nightmarish than for the retail clerk you or do you not favour reducing the provincial sales who by law is to make all these complex decisions as to tax to zero?" That would be a pretty clear-cut question.I whether that piece of clothing of child size is being sold think I can predict what the answer would be. It would to a small adult woman, illegally, or as to whether the be almost unanimous, I think — higher than some of miner's helmet is tax-exempt but not the safety lamp on the polling numbers that have been cited earlier in the the miner's helmet or as to whether a safety coat which House on a different question. is orange is non-taxable but one which is yellow is. Or If the public and the NDP say, "No, no, no; we want maybe I have it the other way around. How is a high to consult the people about a federal law passed six school graduate clerk supposed to remember all that months ago in Ottawa" — well, they can take that idea stuff? Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4759
When we went around the province with the Small and so on — was unfairly imposed on the manufactur- Business Roundtable, we heard over and over again: ing sector, which was gasping for relief. And to rub salt "Please let us escape from this nightmare of administra- in the wounds, exports were taxed but imports weren't. tion complexity that you've created." That is, of course, We were subsidizing import competition. what the harmonization would accomplish. So the GST fight was won, although not without great Finally, if the amendment succeeded in stalling and political damage. It's very hard to tell people that what perhaps even eventually killing this bill, it would be wasn't taxed is now going to be taxed, and of course, we effectively a 40 percent marginal tax increase on busi- see a playing out of that same scenario today. ness machinery. That is the extent to which the tax cut I think it's essential that the manufacturing sector of which is due to kick in on July 1 would be forgone. A B.C. receive assistance, because we see the hollowing out of 40 percent increase in the marginal tax of business ma- the mill towns of Quesnel, Powell River. I think Nanaimo chinery and equipment investment certainly would be Forest Products has seen its share of difficulties. Woodfibre no help for the forestry companies and communities is gone. I used to look up Howe Sound and see the smoke of Quesnel, Terrace, Yale, Lillooet, Port Alberni, Powell plume. It's not there anymore — going, going, gone. River, Sunshine Coast on and on and on. What happened to the high-paying union jobs that It would be no help for the mining companies or these mills represented — the core support group of the the communities of Nelson, Creston, Prince George, members opposite — lifetime jobs, lots of fringe bene- Kamloops, and I could go on forever. It would be no fits, even pensions? These are disappearing, and as they help for the truck loggers, who have come through a point out to us frequently, it's hitting these families in hellish period. Let's not try and gild the lily in terms of the breadbasket, destroying families. They need help. the economic circumstances that they've experienced in A lot of their jobs and what they're trained to do and the last few years. maybe the thing that they do best are, in fact, the jobs The example here that struck me was that a long- in mining, in the pulp and paper industry, in the forest haul Titan logging truck by Mack, base price estimated sector and so on. between $148,000 and $238,000, will now show HST sav- I look at these towns in B.C. struggling, and I've seen ings of up to $16,500, or if you include the federal portion, it happen before. When I first got out of school,I worked $28,500. So you're going to say: "I'm sorry, you're not go- in Buffalo,N ew York — a wonderful town. They had the ing to get that $16,000 tax break after all." Lackawanna steel works on Lake Erie there. It stretched [1740] for about ten miles of great big smokestacks and steel So the cost of rebuilding our primary industries, gen- mills. Costs got out of line, and they didn't reinvest. You erally resource-based, is going to get a great big kick in go down there today, and it's a wasteland. Detroit — the the gut if we do not pass this tax. I think, at the core, that same situation. is the supreme economic benefit of the value-added tax If you want to be a tourist, go around New England for this province. and look at all the mill towns up the Connecticut River, There are other industries, of course, that are very en- which were the bases of the immense surge in prosperity thusiastic about the prospects. We had the film industry of New England in the 19th century. You see row upon come to see us — I believe it was yesterday — a $1.3 bil- row of wonderful red brick buildings powered by water lion industry. They're very enthusiastic. wheels in those days, and they're tourist attractions now, If it fails, it would be no help for Kitimat, the member if they haven't been torn down. from Kitimat-Terrace. I am told that given the further We don't want to see that fate for our heavy indus- economies now in sight with the value-added tax, the try in British Columbia, and one of the most important HST, the $2 billion Kitimat smelter expansion will prob- things we can could to make sure it doesn't happen is to ably go ahead with Rio Tinto. In short, it would be a make sure that we adopt the HST. body blow to business. The opponents on the other side of the aisle have made On the amendment, which of course aims to stall the some interesting arguments. The member for Victoria– HST…. Why was the HST itself a good idea in the first Swan Lake said: "Well, what's the excitement about the place? Well, fairness, and the fairness argument really value-added tax? The Americans don't have one." played itself out a decade or two decades ago in the [1745] Mulroney GST fight. I thought: "Now I've heard everything." The In those days it was even more dramatic. The federal Americans, the NDP Antichrist, are now being held up government was funding itself with a manufacturers' as the economic model we should emulate. I don't think sales tax, and services escaped taxation completely. But we should. I think that on this one, the Americans are meanwhile over the decades, the world had turned in- way behind the rest of the world. That's no argument for creasingly to becoming a service economy, so the tax us to follow them. burden of running the economy — paying for health ser- Another reason is the fact that the experts are almost vices, paying for education, paying for national defence unanimous in recommending the HST value-added 4760 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
tax. With an eye on the clock, I think it would be fool- combined personal income tax rate and credit changes ish for me to try and read all those names. It ranges in the HST…." It concludes that for the most low-in- from Michael Smart to Jock Finlayson to John Allan to a come households, the tax and credit savings offset the whole roster of people, Dr. Jon Kesselman, etc. You don't HST increase. find many economists who say this is a goofy idea. Now, they're talking about Ontario, but I'm sure the Another good reason for not delaying the adoption impact is very similar to British Columbia. It contra- by adopting this amendment is transparency. Few of us dicts directly the point of grinding the hungry faces of realize that when we buy a piece of capital equipment the poor, made so eloquently just now by the member for our own personal use, like an automobile or a pickup for Nanaimo–North Cowichan. The CCPA, the brain truck, we are, in fact, perhaps paying today a sales tax in trust of the NDP party, says: "Hey, it's neutral. There's the range of 9 or 10 percent. no impact." We say: "Wait a minute. That can't be. The sales tax is [1750] 7 percent." No, no, no. There are 2 or 3 percentage points Then, the most interesting thing, if I have time, of hidden sales tax in that car or that refrigerator. You Madam Speaker, is the flip-flop that's occurred. Much just don't see it. It's not reported. It's not shown on the of the anger which has been vented by members oppos- price tag, but it's there. It will be erased with the passage ite says: "You didn't tell the truth" — in fact, they would of this bill, and it's why it should not be delayed by the be so bold in this House as to use the "L" word, but you amendment. won't catch me saying that — "and you knew you were Another good reason is that it's been endorsed by going to do it all along. You didn't tell the truth about the very best NDP thinkers in the land. I'll quote two the budget, etc." of them. Art Charbonneau. I think somebody else read Well, there's now been a big flip-flop in the media and this letter, but it's too good not to read it again. This is in the arguments presented in this Legislature. They didn't Art's letter to the Kamloops Daily News: know about it, it appears, but as soon as the election was "It appals me" — Art says, Art Charbonneau of the NDP — "that over, then there were a lot of briefings. The officials said: the NDP is standing with Vander Zalm to block the HST. Are the "It appears we've got a real problem, but by the way, we NDP and Vander Zalm also recommending higher income taxes have a solution." That's how officials think. They hate to to offset the loss of government revenue? I don't think so." be the bearers of bad news without a solution. He has that a little wrong, but we'll excuse it. The solution is a $1.6 billion pot of cash that they can "I can understand Vander Zalm's position, but darned if I can understand the NDP's, unless they're just jumping on the anti- get from Ottawa if they just go along with the HST thing, tax bandwagon like a bunch of Johnny-come-lately Reaganites which has been kicking around for a long time without because they know it will garner votes. It can't be because they much enthusiasm. The officials said: "By golly, you're want to protect the poor, because with the HST the poor will right. Let's do it." receive an increased quarterly credit, just like they receive a GST credit right now. It did indeed become a decision that I think was made "So I'm puzzled. How do people think we can fund education post-election, not pre-election. All this folderol about and health care at all levels we desire unless taxes are there to conspiracy, mistruths, concealment, "they didn't fess pay for it?" up," fudge-it budget, smudge-it budget…. Well, cut the I'm interpolating a little bit from Art's language. I apolo- ground out from that argument. gize for that. Now it is: "They made the decision too quickly after He says: "Tommy Douglas must be spinning in his the election." You know what? I'd agree with them, be- grave." I like that. Have you thought about it? Tommy cause if ever a pretty basic change in the taxation kind of Douglas, every time he hears what you're saying — and had a — well, I have to choose my words carefully — less I'm sure Tommy is up there and not down here — is than professional rollout, it was this one, folks. That's spinning, saying: "Oh my god, these are my progeny. why we're having this debate today. Because it wasn't ex- These are the people I've tried to indoctrinate in good plained very well at all. social democratic principles. They've jumped into bed with this guy. I can't believe it. It's terrible." [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Now, a more analytical source of commentary is my favourite target, and I've said very unkind things about I tried to explain it the other day to a group of 85- to them, very impolite and rude things, and I should take 90-year-old ladies using my Harvard charts and value- them back. The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. added…. I realized: "I've got to get out of here real quick. You may recall my saying that CCPA reminded me This is a hard thing to explain." I'll forgive the govern- of those Russian tanks clanking across Red Square all ment for not doing a very good job in explaining it. the time. Well, that was a cheap shot. I shouldn't have Nevertheless, everybody who hates taxes immediately said that, particularly when they have funded a paper passed the word in the absence of the facts, so I had by University of Toronto economists Lightman and people in my office saying: "Why are you charging HST Mitchell, saying: "The net distributive impact of the on my food? I cannot afford that." Somebody said: "Why Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4761
are you charging it on my heating bill?" Somebody said: The House adjourned at 5:56 p.m. "Why are you charging 12 percent on a $500,000 house, $60,000 tax on a half-million-dollar house?" A lot of them think it's a 12 percent tax on everything PROCEEDINGS IN THE brand-new. No wonder they're upset. I mean, signing up DOUGLAS FIR ROOM people on a petition saying: "Would you agree that we shouldn't charge a new 12 percent tax on everything…?" Committee of Supply "Okay, where do I sign? I'll go for that." Well, to put it kindly and parliamentarily, there was a ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF FORESTS certain amount of distortion going on, and now we reap AND RANGE the whirlwind. Meanwhile Tommy Douglas spins and spins and spins. The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. So my final plea. I see the Speaker is giving me the Bloy in the chair. eagle eye. We've had a lot of very heartfelt pleas to save ourselves, particularly from the member for Nanaimo– The committee met at 2:42 p.m. North Cowichan. It's a chance for the Premier to save himself by unwinding it. It's a chance for the member for On Vote 34: ministry operations, $380,357,000. West Vancouver–Capilano to save himself. I have a quotation to put back to you. It's from William The Chair: Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome Shakespeare, The Tempest: "Misery acquaints a man to the budget estimates for the Ministry of Forests and with strange bedfellows." The misery of the NDP party Range. If I could remind the people in the gallery that has acquainted the NDP party with a rather strange the small gallery is the same as the big House. You can bedfellow from the past, a man who took a wonder- use electronic devices but no audio or no communicat- ful 40-year track record — competent, careful, prudent, ing by waving hands, etc., with members at the table. thrifty Social Credit Party — and destroyed it in four years, put it out of business. Hon. P. Bell: I just have a few brief opening remarks. I would suggest to you that if you continue to follow I understand that we're going to start out with the inte- the flag of this gentleman….I won't be so unparliament- grated land management bureau and then move on to ary as to list the cash in the brown paper bags at 3 a.m. at the Ministry of Forests and Range. I'd like to thank the the Bayshore hotel. I would never bring up that subject critic for that. That's very helpful from our perspective or the fact that he wanted to restrict access to the right to organize our executive team and make sure that we to life for women. don't have too many people away from their respective offices, so I want to thank the critic for that. Interjections. I'd like to start out by introducing the staff. I have here Steve Carr, the president and CEO of the integrated R. Sultan: I didn't vote for Bill. I wasn't here. Well, land management bureau. Craig Sutherland is our CFO. you shouldn't follow those people. Believe it. We're also joined by Charles Porter, who has respon- [1755] sibility for about half of the integrated land management Now the Opposition House Leader is giving me the bureau, particular on the First Nations consultation signal. I rest my case. There's still time to save yourself. side, and Gary Townsend, who has responsibility for Abandon that cause. It's a losing cause, and it may cost FrontCounter B.C. and other aspects of the integrated you your party. land management bureau. ILMB, as I think the members opposite know, is a ser- R. Sultan moved adjournment of debate. vice delivery arm of government. We provide services to other branches of government, particularly with regards Motion approved. to First Nations consultation and the delivery of permit- ting processes for small and medium-sized businesses Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported across British Columbia. progress, was granted leave to sit again. FrontCounter B.C. was established about five years ago and has had significant success in terms of pro- Hon. B. Penner moved adjournment of the House. viding services to small and medium-sized companies. The thinking behind this when it was established was Motion approved. that while large companies are capable of moving per- mits through the system and visiting different ministries Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 in order to acquire the necessary permits, small and a.m. Monday morning. medium-sized businesses found that very challenging. 4762 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
It was difficult for them to acquire the necessary permits, ter's office — we'll start off with ILMB. There will be so it was useful for them to have a single-window ap- a number of individuals that have questions on ILMB, proach into government. and then I think they'll start to move into some for- We also have GeoBC within the integrated land man- estry issues. That will be, basically, what will take up agement bureau. GeoBC does almost all of the mapping the bulk of the afternoon. Then we will go on and really work within government. There have been many very be concentrating on silviculture issues and then trying exciting initiatives in GeoBC. One of the more recent to understand the reorganization and the changes that ones was the agreement that we signed with Google so are going on in the Forest Service. That's what's going that when an individual goes on Google Earth and looks to take up the bulk of the time that we have available to see the satellite photo of their home or of a specific to us. area that they're interested in looking at, at one point in To begin with ILMB, it's just some straightforward time as you continue to focus in on the particular area of process questions to put a few things in context, and interest, you'll notice that you transition from a satellite then I'm going to turn it over to my colleague from photo to an aerial photo. Victoria here to ask some more specific questions on When you do that, you actually come to GeoBC. an issue that's current and important to her. I just want Google automatically transfers over to GeoBC, which is to understand some of the principles of the application located right here in Victoria — about 70 employees or process on public lands. so — and you see the most current aerial photographs of The first question is this one. Before there's a tenure the area that we have on file. or a licence of occupation, before that's given, is there [1445] always a public notification of the tenure with a pub- We're the first jurisdiction to do that around the world, lic input period? Is that something that will always which we are very proud of. We thought that was a great happen? initiative, led by Mark Zacharias under his management regime of GeoBC. It was a wonderful initiative. Hon. P. Bell: The answer to that question, I think, is We also have great work in terms of overlaying dif- no. There are some circumstances where there isn't a ferent maps that help us project ahead on things like public process or notification. Those typically would land and resource management plans, in dealing with be around temporary use permits. If those tempor- the details of mountain pine beetle and the potential ary use permits are something that we think may be impacts, in trying to create longer shelf lives and under- of public interest, then we would go ahead and consult standing what the opportunities are. GeoBC has done a on those as well, and we would publish those. On any wonderful job. We also deliver some electronic licensing tenure permits or any tenuring, there is always public services and that sort of thing. notification. I talked a little bit about FrontCounter B.C. already. [1450] The First Nations consultation division, under the Then, depending on the nature of it, it may notgo leadership of Charles Porter, works with cross-ministry through a detailed public consultation if it's a very minor initiatives so that instead of multiple individuals going item. An example of that might be a private dock on a into First Nations communities from different arms of lake. There might not even be a notification of that. So government, consulting oftentimes on the same project, generally speaking, temporary permits, no, any sort of we just have a single individual responsible for those tenuring, yes. projects. This isn't exact, but generally speaking, as a division N. Macdonald: Just to be a bit more specific, the ex- of responsibility the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations ample that the minister used for something that's so and Reconciliation deals with issues inside treaty or in small in scale that it likely would hold no interest would the negotiation of treaty and those consultations. The be something like a dock on a lake. Can you just expand integrated land management bureau deals with the bulk on that? What are some of the other things? Just give of the consultations outside of treaty, especially when me a sense of at what point the notification would be they're cross-ministry-type consultations. required. And yeah, I guess that's just a bit more of the That, in a very quick nutshell, is what we do inside scope. the integrated land management bureau. We have a great team of people across the province, and we're Hon. P. Bell: We're trying to find something that's very excited about ensuring that we provide services to right on the borderline of yes, you would or no, you the public. I'll start with that, and I'd be happy to take wouldn't consult on it. I think that's what the member's questions. looking for. Clearly, one that we would, would be a com- munications tower. It would be published in the local N. Macdonald: Basically, over the time that we have media. It would also be gazetted, so that one definitely — I've had the opportunity to speak with the minis- falls in the "yes, you would consult on." Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4763
One that is borderline, that you may or may not, is country — and some of these tenures would likely in- an investigative use permit. So that's where a proponent clude building of roads; maybe there would even be may go in…. Actually, I was just speaking with a First temporary placement of buildings, things like that — is Nations group today on a potential investigative use per- there always a security deposit? Or is there…? mit, and in that particular situation they're looking at What sort of guarantee does the Crown have that providing a sewage system for about 3,000 people. That's the public is not going to be stuck with liability — for a relatively large one, and we would probably publish instance, if they have an oil tank up there and it leaks that type of thing, even though it's only an investigative or something like that, and there's a cleanup that's re- use permit. A minor permit that has a lower level of im- quired? What mechanism does the Crown have to make pact we might not. sure that that doesn't happen? So an investigative use is just kind of in the middle of the pack in terms of something that could fall either way, Hon. P. Bell: The member added an additional ele- depending on the nature of it. If it was a larger one, we ment at the tail end of his question that I just needed to would, and if it was a smaller one, we wouldn't. Things be clear on. When he started the question, I was going to that are less invasive than that likely would not involve automatically jump up and say that typically, if a lodge consultation or publication. Anything that is more inva- was being built on a tenure of this nature, it would be sive than that, likely we would. done under a lease. So they could have a licence of occupation as a heli-ski N. Macdonald: So is this a requirement by legislation company. They could have a licence of occupation over or by regulation, or is it simply a practice? the area that they ski on. But likely the lodge and fuel tanks and that would be in a lease area, and that would Hon. P. Bell: It's by policy. That policy is written. require some sort of a performance bond or some sort Typically, the president of the integrated land manage- of security that ensures that the Crown is held harm- ment bureau or perhaps the minister may sign off on it, less. Now, of course, that hasn't always been the case, but but typically it's done within the public service. that's current practices. But then the member added an element in at the end N. Macdonald: The term "licence of occupation" that got me thinking a bit when he asked about the fuel — is that a specific term, or is it a more general term? tanks, because there are fuel tanks as refuelling stations, Licence of occupation — is that something that could not at the primary lodge but in other areas in those forms be the placement of a dock, or is it something that's big- of tenure. I am advised that those could be on a licence ger than that, like for a particular tenure or something? of occupation, as well, or even some small outbuildings What exactly does the term mean? that are used by a heli-ski company for warming up or [1455] that type of thing — so not necessarily permanent struc- Hon. P. Bell: A licence of occupation is a non-exclu- tures, but more temporary structures away from the sive use. It does provide the right to use a specific area primary lodge. for a specific purpose, but others also have the right to Those could be on licences of occupation, and those use that area for other reasons — the generally. An ex- also include bonding requirements to ensure that if ample of that would be a heli-ski tenure. there are any environmental impacts, there is funding there to ensure that it can be cleaned up. N. Macdonald: I'll just put two questions together, then. Would a heli-ski tenure, then, be something that…. N. Macdonald: Just to be clear — and we can use Would there generally be notification? With something the example of heli-skiing, then — if there is an access like a heli-ski tenure, would there be consultation with road built up, if there's any sort of construction, even First Nations? Here I'm thinking: would that be auto- minor, there will be some sort of bonding mechanism matic? Maybe a degree of whether it's automatic, that that will presumably make sense relative to what is be- it would happen and it has to happen, or it can happen ing done up there? So if they are leaving a fuel tank depending on…. Or it wouldn't, necessarily. Sort of the in a place, that would set a certain amount that the degrees as well. Crown would want for bonding, and if it's something more elaborate, there would be different bondings? Hon. P. Bell: Yes to both questions, and yes, it would Do I understand correctly that that's the system that's be automatic with regards to consultation with First in place? Nations in that circumstance. And the second part of it is: is that required? Is that always going to be there? Is that set in regulation or in N. Macdonald: On the tenures, just the last thing that legislation, or is it simply good practice? I need to understand, then…. If these are in the back [1500] 4764 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
Hon. P. Bell: The current structure of the system that M. Karagianis: I am sure that it will come as no sur- the member is referring to opposite…. I just want to prise that I have a number of questions about a proposed use that word "current" because it's what I know. There marina development in the Inner Harbour here, and I may be some historical ones. I'm sure there are histor- would initially like to just start off with some broader ical ones going back many decades. Perhaps there were process questions. different standards applied, and some of those leases [1505] may not have been renewed yet. But under one issued The proposed project in the Inner Harbour is a 52- today, if there's one issued today, or at least for the last slip marina for mega-yachts that is consisting of two three or four or five years that I've had responsibility one-storey buildings on water lots that are owned by the for the integrated land management bureau, the re- developer, and the project would also include a parcel of quirement for bonding is in policy. I know that can water lot that would be leased from the province. There sometimes be…. are a lot of unique elements to this proposal. It is highly People can think: "Well, what's policy? Is it considered controversial in the community, as I'm sure the minis- to be a significant requirement or not?" Policy is seen as ter is aware. being as important, in terms of a licensed document or What I would like to do in this question opportunity anything of that nature, as a regulation. Perhaps not as with you is perhaps dispel some incorrect information legislation — that's a bit different. But it is something about it, if we can, and clarify some issues for the com- that frames a requirement for all decision-makers when munity. they issue a licence. I would call the minister's attention to an article that ran in the Times Colonist on March 17, which was an [C. Trevena in the chair.] editorial. What it says is: "The marina process is failing everyone." Really, my purpose here is to talk about that So it is there. It is actually in the tenure document. process and see if we can in fact clarify some informa- The bonding requirement is actually listed in the tenure tion the community has and a growing concern that the document and identified as the level that is required for community has. that particular area. I would like to first clarify with the minister, if I may, The final element of the member's question on the term "water lots" and "owned by the developer." roads. Typically, our understanding…. We're reaching Perhaps the minister could talk a little bit more about: a little bit here. We'll follow up and make sure that we how were they acquired? When were they acquired? have this right, but we're reaching a little bit. Typically, And are they freehold tenure, or what is the nature of roads are done under road permits, and this is just that ownership? because a number of these individuals have forest ser- vice experience. That's typically where those are done. Hon. P. Bell: We don't have that title search here, so But the road is usually permitted under the licence or I can't confirm for certain that this is the case, but our tenure. understanding is that the lots have been held since the If we're talking about a heli-ski tenure, just as an ex- 1980s. Unless we knew exact lot numbers…. I'm not sure ample, that then holds the bond for the deactivation or we have that level of information here anyways, but I think remediation of the road. So, the bond is not directly asso- that they are freeheld lots. They're not tenured lots, at least ciated with the road use permit or with the road permit, the two I think the member opposite is referring to. but it is in that the road permit is connected to the li- cence document, which holds the bond for both. M. Karagianis: In the case of this, is this kind of water lot ownership common in a public harbour of the nature N. Macdonald: We'll probably move to some specific that we have here in Victoria? questions on issues. Thank you for that.I mean, that was useful and interesting, and in terms of the specifics, I Hon. P. Bell: I just have to double-check with the know that the member from Esquimalt will be talking member opposite. I may have given her an incorrect about the harbour issue. piece of information. Was the member opposite refer- I do have some questions just from people in ring to the water lots in her previous question, in her Invermere around the Farnham Glacier — the licence first question, or to the privately held lots on land? of occupation. I can give you the number, if that's use- ful to staff. It's 343545, and there again, they just have M. Karagianis: No, I'm actually talking about the fairly specific questions about that. Then there was an- water lots in both cases. other gentleman that was going to ask questions, and I [1510] don't know that he's going to be available, but they'll be on fairly specific topics. So I'll just turn it over to my Hon. P. Bell: It appears as if we're going to go down a compatriot here. path that's highly technical in nature. I think, to get the Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4765
right answers for the member opposite, I'd prefer that water lots, and the largest parcel of land here is expected we have a different individual here who, unfortunately, to be a leased water lot property from the province. is based out of Nanaimo. We could have that individual Perhaps this is again a technical question. How does this here on either Monday or Tuesday. I understand that the leasing of provincial water lot ownership work? How estimates will go through that period as well. common is that in public harbours? I am just going to ask if the member would be willing [1515] to wait until either Monday or Tuesday, whatever is con- venient for her. If she lets us know now, we could have Hon. P. Bell: What initiates the process would be an that individual here, and then we'd be in a better pos- application from any individual or company. They could ition to answer that level of detail. apply for a water lot. This is a very common practice. Any marina in the province would likely have a water lot, M. Karagianis: Yes, I think I would like to avail my- so it's not an unusual type of application that we would self of that opportunity. Is the minister at this point, receive. though, asking that all the questions I might have If it was successful, it would end up in a lease. Going wanted to ask or just those that technically refer to the back to the previous member's questions, that automatic- water lot tenure ownership, etc…? Maybe he can clarify ally triggers notification in the form of advertisements in exactly where the cut-off point is.H ow many questions local newspapers and that sort of thing — public com- can I ask today, or should all of my questions about this ment periods, consultation, all those elements — as well process, as well as about the water lot ownership, be as, of course, First Nations consultation. kept for later? Currently, just anticipating what the member might ask next, in this particular circumstance the public con- Hon. P. Bell: The reason why I asked the question is sultation period has not been concluded yet. That's still because I'd already provided some incorrect information active; it hasn't closed off. The file is still considered in my first answer. I assumed the member was referring active from our perspective at this point. to some land-based lots, not water lots. We now under- stand that. In a quick review of the team we have here, M. Karagianis: I would take, then, from the minis- we understand that two of those water lots are privately ter's comments on the process, that an application has held, but don't have the level of information of how long been submitted, that the process is underway and that they've been privately held. we are currently in the public consultation phase of that We just very quickly reviewed as a team if water lots process. What form and shape exactly does the consul- are a common feature in British Columbia, and none of tation…. The public consultation stage of the process us could come up quickly with significant numbers of — what does that look like? What does it entail? Is there water lots. They do exist, but it wasn't something that a beginning? Is there an end? How, in fact, does the pub- we could come up with immediately. However, the in- lic engage in that process? dividual that we would bring would have that level of [1520] knowledge. If the member wants to go on and pursue other ques- Hon. P. Bell: The kind of kickoff to the consultation tions around this file, we're happy to do that. If we find process is the advertisement that gets run. In this par- that we're unable to get the level of answers, then I'd sug- ticular file, I understand, there was an advertisement gest that we put off the remainder of them.B ut we could taken out in December of 2009, but there was some certainly continue on. I just want to make sure I'm pro- incorrect information in it. So it was re-advertised in viding the right information for the member. January of 2010, and that was considered the starting I know that this is a contentious issue for her riding. I point of the public consultation period. agree with her that it's important that the public have all In this particular circumstance the proponent has the correct information on it, so they know exactly who had open houses. As I think the member is aware, the has what roles and responsibilities within each level of local federal MP had a public kind of a meeting, which government, and they can direct their commentary to we sent staff to, as well, to be part of. the appropriate level of government. Once we moved through that process, it then is in the adjudication phase, which is where we are at today. M. Karagianis: I appreciate the minister's comments. The adjudication phase still accepts public comment. Yes, obviously, some of these more technical discus- Written comment is taken and considered all through sions we'll follow up next week. Certainly, I'm hoping the adjudication phase. While there are lots of elements that there are a number of questions that we can pursue of this…. here. As I think the member opposite is aware, there are Again, around the issue of process. The 52-slip mar- three other key agencies here that are involved. Transport ina project is based on the use of these currently owned Canada and the work that they are doing. Then the fed- 4766 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
eral environmental assessment process, and clearly, we other arm of the federal government. Both of those re- would not make any decisions until that process is com- quire public consultation processes, and they are well plete. Then, of course, municipal zoning authorities. If equipped to make those decisions. the zoning authority was not appropriate for the use, The municipal government has a responsibility for then that would automatically disqualify the tenure as zoning and determining whether or not they deem well. that particular use is acceptable for a piece of property. We see ourselves a bit as largely a technical agency If they want to make changes to that, they have pub- in terms of pulling together all the data from the other lic consultation periods for zoning requirements and agencies. The Canadian environmental assessment they determine whether the uses of that property are authority reviews all of those elements. The local mu- appropriate. nicipality makes a decision on whether or not they want We are kind of stuck in between those two places, from to allow the zoning to be in place for a specific use. Then the provincial government perspective. We wouldn't be we align our decision with those other agencies. consulting on either of those issues. We don't make de- Any of those agencies can automatically disqual- cisions based on either of those elements. If the federal ify the tenure by not allowing the environmental government has done their due diligence and deter- assessment approval — Transport Canada in this cir- mines that this is an appropriate use of the property…. It cumstance or the municipality. Any one of those three hasn't triggered a provincial environmental assessment; elements that is not approved automatically means that it's triggered a federal environmental assessment. They we have no more work to do, and we would not approve would consult on that. They would consult on the navig- the tenure. able waters issue. The municipality consults on the land use and the zoning of it. M. Karagianis: I do want to kind of proceed through Our decision is in the middle of those and is largely the comments that the minister has made and some of technical in nature. We do, of course, have a responsibil- the information that has been made public by the federal ity to consult with First Nations, and that work has been jurisdiction and, certainly, some obviously very publicly ongoing, and we've had feedback there. That would be disclosed information and a stand that the municipality our primary area of responsibility. has taken. But just to be clear. I know this is an emotional issue The minister said we'd go through the application for residents, but our role is largely technical in nature. stage, the public consultation process. We have now Really, the municipality has the authority to make de- moved into an adjudication stage, but public consul- cisions around zoning and whether or not they think tation is still accepted in the form of writing. So the that's an appropriate use. The federal government has province does not anticipate in this process holding the authority to make the environmental decision, and their own public consultation that's not either led by the we're the ones in the centre of the whole thing. proponent or, in the case of the initiative that was taken, by the local MP. M. Karagianis: I understand the three levels of au- Does the province not go out, then, and engage in thority and the various tasks that they undertake, but their own process? Or is the notice of advertising simply I hear the minister say that the municipality and their notification to the public to then submit in writing or authority over zoning is a key element to the approval in person or in some other form? I mean, I see that the or non-approval of leasing. I believe that the munici- province has piggybacked on what the proponent has pality at this point cannot and will not make further done and has participated in what the MP has done. determination on that until the process has been com- Certainly, from the public point of view, I know there's pleted both federally and provincially. Now, that is my a great deal of concern about what kind of consultation understanding. process the province on its own would undertake. Can It would seem to me that…. I've sat at the municipal the minister address that for me? level, so I know that for the municipality to undertake [1525] a zoning process…. It includes, you know, first, second reading, a public process, a public hearing on that and Hon. P. Bell: I think I'll just try and again explain the then a determination whether or not they would ap- division of responsibilities here. The federal government prove the zoning or turn it down. That process, of course, has the responsibility to do two things, two primary is contingent on other information that municipalities issues. One is to determine whether or not the site is don't undertake — being the responsibilities that both suitable from an environmental perspective and would the federal and provincial government do. be appropriate for that use and that there would not be I know that at the federal level Transport Canada has any environmental damage. at this point said…. The federal minister has stated in They also have responsibility for ensuring that naviga- writing that it's unlikely that a panel review process is tion is not impeded — Transport Canada, through the warranted for the marina project. He justifies this claim, Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4767
saying that the majority of the public concern is about the city made that request. So the city, really, technically quality-of-life issues. had been under no obligation to seek his approval for…. But in no way does the federal government here clarify We're talking about the leased water lot between the two any concerns about the environmental process or an en- privately owned, and we haven't explored that for reasons vironmental assessment. So who takes on the evaluation that we have canvassed here. This piece of leased water lot of the environmental assessment of the Inner Harbour here between the two pieces of privately owned water lots and of the implications of this? is, I think, under intense scrutiny from the public. If the federal government is looking at simply, you So I would like to ask about…. Perhaps the minister know, navigation, which I would say is highly question- needs the expertise of someone else here, but perhaps able, but nonetheless, it is their responsibility…. It seems his staff knows.C an we talk about the actual application that nowhere in their comments have they talked about and when it was submitted and why the city was un- public consultation, for one, other than saying that they able to put in their rezoning application to turn this into believe this is a lifestyle issue. parkland, which of course would have then considerably [1530] changed the magnitude of the current development pro- Certainly, the whole environmental assessment aspect posal? Can you comment on that, Minister? of this — who takes responsibility for that, and where is [1535] the reporting out of that? How is that open and trans- parent to the public? Hon. P. Bell: Two things I wanted to touch on, as I understand it. We can, for Monday or Tuesday, get the Hon. P. Bell: Just to be clear for the member opposite, e-mails and so on associated with this over here as well. there are actually two federal processes underway cur- My understanding is that it was a technical discussion rently. Transport Canada is responsible for navigable between someone at the city and someone at the in- waters and is doing that. Environment Canada is re- tegrated land management bureau, and it was only a sponsible for the Canadian Environmental Assessment suggestion: "Well, you should go talk to this person, but Agency. The questions the member asked with regards if you want to apply for a rezoning, if you want to rezone to who reviews the environmental aspects of this de- it, you can rezone it." cision and who has the authority to give it a green or But also — and this has not been well publicized, I a red light…. It is in fact the Canadian Environmental don't think, in the media — there is nothing preventing Assessment Agency, and they do their own public con- the city from applying for rezoning the lot today. They sultation periods. could rezone the water lot today if they wanted to. It's up to them. They have complete authority over that. It's [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.] not something…. They hold complete control over that decision. We would not make a decision on this if either of It's ultimately, again, stepping back, a federal gov- those two agencies were to not approve their work. So ernment responsibility around navigation, around once their work has been done, if either of them gave it environmental assessment, municipal government — if a red light, then it's done. Our work is done. this is an appropriate use. If it's not, then they'd better At a municipal level, if this property were not to be think about the zoning that's been on there for what- zoned appropriately for the use, then we would not con- ever length of time it's been on there, or they could sider the tenure application either. So there are three red make a decision to rezone it. The member actually has lights there that all have to be green in order for us to more experience in this area than I do. I haven't been a really complete our work. member of local government. I'm just going to ask tolerance of the members oppos- M. Karagianis: I'm just trying to, again, piece this ite for a five-minute recess, if we can. Okay, recess five together. I know that the minister has publicly stated minutes? that you were waiting on the results of the screening as- sessment. I would presume that means environmental The Chair: Yes, we'll have a recess for five minutes. assessment. The city of Victoria at one point, several years ago, in- The committee recessed from 3:37 p.m. to 3:40 p.m. quired about rezoning the water as parkland. They were told by integrated land management that they needed to [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.] seek the approval of the proponent, the developer, be- cause he had an interest in the Crown land. M. Karagianis: I appreciate the minister's comments I'm sure some of your staff may be aware of the rather about the city's ability and rights at this point to choose contentious nature of the timeline here. The developer had, what rezoning process they wish, which would indicate in fact, not actually filed an application at that point, when to me that…. 4768 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
The application has been made for lease of this prop- M. Karagianis: It's very interesting. When we talk erty, of this water lot. As it currently sits, there is zoning about all these various processes that have to be under- in place for a marina, but it's certainly anticipated to be taken here, I know that the minister has actually stated somewhat — and I would say extremely — smaller than publicly that the amount of time that all this is taking is, what the current proponent is applying for. I'm sure that in fact, putting the developer at risk. Well, I think the in- the minister is aware of that as well. We'll maybe canvass ference might have been. The amount of time that this is that a little bit. taking is certainly not beneficial to all parties involved. The minister did talk about the various other levels of We'll put it that way. government authority over this and the processes that I do note that an engineering firm that's been hired they go through. A red light for many of them would to do an environmental assessment is claiming on their then trigger a CEAA process for the minister. What is website that this project has passed every environmental the red light at the provincial level, then? review, both federal and provincial, including that of the integrated land management board. That's clearly cited Hon. P. Bell: We may have to go back and forth a few on the website of Chatwin Engineering, which has been times. I'm not sure I'll be able to get the whole answer, hired to do some parts of this. because it's a complex issue. This particular situation is Can the minister comment on that? Clearly from the unique compared to many of the adjudications that we discussion we're having here, that doesn't really fit in would take part in, in that there are multiple other agen- with the process as the minister has outlined it. I'd like to cies involved in the decision. hear from the minister maybe some feedback on that. We'll go back to the critic's original questions around heli-ski tenures. There likely wouldn't be an environ- Hon. P. Bell: I'll start out by saying I am unaware of any mental assessment process, a CEAA process, in the role that the board of the integrated land management assessment of one of those tenures — although there bureau would have in any environmental assessment might be, I suppose. processes. They are a group of deputy ministers from In that case, if that level of consultation and that level half a dozen or so — six; well, that's pretty close to half of work were not being done by a different agency, we a dozen, give or take one — ministries. I'm certainly not would do that work. But in this case, because the fed- aware of any time that that group of six individuals has eral government is leading the Canadian Environmental been involved in environmental assessments. Assessment Agency, Transport Canada is leading nav One of the members of the board is the deputy for waters, and then there's the municipality zoning piece, Environment, but it's a board that just really reviews our work is relatively limited in terms of what we do. performance, sets general direction, high-level deci- One of the key pieces that we have fiduciary respon- sions, helps support the development of the service plan, sibility for is First Nations consultation. That is probably that type of thing. one of the biggest single areas that we need to play a The second is that we have not received anything from role in. The other element pulls together public consul- the federal government or an approved environmental tation — the input that we get from the public in terms assessment from the federal government. It could be of both during the consultation period and now, during that this individual has information that I don't have, the adjudication period, where the public can continue but I have not received a copy of any documentation to comment. We would take any comments that we from the federal government that suggests that they've received. When we get the work, if there was a green approved this file. light…. It could be that this individual has an in that I don't Who knows whether it'll be a green light or a red light? know about. I can tell you that I have not personally re- I don't want to presume that. Let's for a moment say ceived any documentation from the federal government that there's a green light that comes from Environment that says that this deal has been approved. Canada and Transport Canada. We would compare the comments that we received from the public on that M. Karagianis: That information has been on the work to determine whether or not either of those two website for some time. One of my intentions was to agencies had assessed that specific area of work. Then, clarify some misinformation, so I would have to say that if there were areas where we thought there were gaps in the information on this Chatwin Engineering website, the work done, then we would participate in that work then, is not factual as it stands right now. as well. Could the minister perhaps just comment on whether It's a little unique situation, in that we have other levels or not the First Nations consultation process has been of government doing a lot of the work this time around, undertaken and what stage that's at? whereas for many of the files that we adjudicate, it's just us that have to do all of those different pieces of work. Hon. P. Bell: I'm going to just be a little careful how [1545] far I go in answering this question because it is an active Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4769
file. I'm not entirely sure it would be appropriate for Hon. P. Bell: Again, just being careful that I don't fet- me to discuss specifics of an open and active file at this ter a statutory decision-maker on this specific file, what point. I can say is that any statutory decision-maker, by policy, What I will say is that there have been numerous at- would ensure that in the process of making their deci- tempts to connect with First Nations by ourselves in the sion there wouldn't be an infringement on the riparian integrated land management bureau and, as I under- rights to other traditional users and groups in the area. stand it, by the Canadian Environmental Assessment The reason just why it is so complex an issue is because Agency and the developer, and that the consultation of all the varying legal opinions that have occurred on period has not closed off yet. It is still active in terms of this file, and also the nature and the history behind the discussions with the primary two First Nations. region in terms of the different activities that have taken [1550] place on it. [1555] M. Karagianis: Can I ask the minister, then: on the issue of riparian rights, has the integrated land man- M. Karagianis: Thank you very much, Minister, for agement bureau addressed the issue of riparian rights? your responses. I realize that I have one more fairly The city of Victoria and two of the strata councils of the technical question to ask. Whether it's something that properties on the upland have notified, to my under- current staff can address or not, you can let me know. standing, the ILMB about their intent to assert riparian It actually goes back to environmental assessment. rights. Can the minister comment on what bearing that There will be an extensive amount of dredging required will now have on the adjudication process? in the proposal as it stands now. I must tell you that my prejudice, naturally, is that I spent ten years with the Hon. P. Bell: Again, I'm just going to be a little careful Veins of Life Watershed Society cleaning up the Gorge on this because it would be inappropriate for me to fet- waterway and helping to restore and repair as much nat- ter a decision-maker who hasn't been asked to turn their ural shoreline as possible in both the Gorge waterway mind to a decision yet through comments I make here. and the harbour. So of course, the term "dredging" is I will talk specifically about this file in one area, but I'll immediately very disturbing. move to a generality in terms of how files of this nature Now, I know that there are a lot of historic issues with would be dealt with once we get to kind of the touchier the Inner Harbour, but I would just like to ask technic- place, at least in my opinion. ally a question here around the location for disposal of The very, very complex situation here…. There has the dredgeate. This, I believe, is the responsibility of the been, as I understand it, foreshore that's been infilled. ILMB. There are questions about who has what riparian rights If this were to go ahead…. In fact, maybe one of the and where. It's an unusual environment. It's not just questions that I would ask is whether or not this is a kind of a normal environment. I know that there have consideration within the adjudication process: where been varying legal opinions on this as well, so it is a very will that disposal site be for contaminated…? And we complex decision specific to this environment, a diffi- do know that it's contaminated. I mean, in the process cult decision because of the nature of the differing legal of the federal government beginning to divest prop- opinions and the complexity of the activities that have erties to the harbour authority and to communities, taken place in this region. we do know that there is a great deal of contamina- Moving to a more general perspective, any tenure that tion in this area. Certainly, once it's disturbed, as we we would issue currently under the current decision ma- all know, that significantly changes things and sets off trix or model…. One of the boxes that we have to tick new reactions. off in it is that we make sure that we're not infringing on Is that not a requirement? Would that not be a re- riparian rights from other users and/or residents in the quirement if the responsibility for this is with the ILMB? area. That's one of the things that would be considered by Is this not a fairly significant implication in the adjudica- the decision-maker during the process of them adjudi- tion process — thinking about how that could be done, cating the file. They would have to ensure that there was if it should be done, what will be done and where will no infringement of riparian rights, and then that typ- it be deposited? All of those questions, I think, are of ically would carry forward in a tenure document as well. great concern to the environmentalists and, certainly, to That's an element, perhaps, that hasn't been explored Veins of Life and other organizations like that. fully in the past at other levels of discussion that might be new news for the member. [D. Horne in the chair.]
M. Karagianis: Would it be fair to say, then, that this Hon. P. Bell: We actually have an answer to an ear- could be one of the things that is a red light at the prov- lier question, which was: are privately owned water lots incial level — the assertion of riparian rights? commonplace? I am advised that no, that is not the case. 4770 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
There are only a few. They are largely in the traditional or not it's an appropriate use of the property — we've E&N land grants at the bottom of various lakes and, as already had the discussion that they could make the de- I understand it, some of them are owned by forest com- cision today, if they wanted to, to change that zoning; panies. But I understand that, generally speaking, it's that would be up to them — those are the appropriate not a commonplace type of freehold ownership. agencies to do that work. I can answer half the question, and the other half gets Our work in this particular file is largely technical technical, so we'll have to wait and get the other individ- in nature. The input that we receive from the public we ual here. The actual dredging component of this project, would review when we receive — assuming that we get as I understand it, is included in the Canadian environ- — a Canadian environmental assessment review that ap- mental assessment review, so the component of that proves that level of the project. We would compare and dredging process would be there. see what had or had not been responded to of the pub- The second part of the question that the member has lic concerns or comments. If there were gaps, then we — what do you do with that material, where does it go, would pursue those gaps to determine whether or not how is that assessed and how do you determine whether there are legitimate concerns. or not that's being appropriately managed? — I do not I think the question that the member asked really, have an answer to, but we will make sure that we have though, is…. There is this public concern that's out an answer. there that's been expressed, and the member asked if I'd just ask the member…. We can continue on if there there were varying levels of input. Yeah, it's probably not are other questions, but perhaps she could just provide an HST, but maybe close to it — not a lot of variance, a us with a little bit of detail and when it would be con- little bit. venient for the member opposite to continue this line of I mean, certainly I believe that the municipality has questioning, and we'd be happy to have the right person full authority to make zoning decisions here, and they here to make sure that we get all the answers for her. are the locally elected officials that should make those [1600] decisions based on their constituents. If their constitu- ents are sending a strong message to the municipality M. Karagianis: In fact, I'm happy if the minister wants that this is an appropriate use, then I don't know why to provide that to me. The question is fairly straight- they wouldn't rezone it. I mean, they have that author- forward, and that could be sent to me after the fact ity and that ability to do it. We don't have the authority without necessarily impeding the rest of the estimates as or ability to rezone a piece of property, so we're largely a you move into forestry estimates, obviously, after this. technical agency from that perspective. I would like to ask a few questions, then, around the process here and how much bearing public opinion has M. Karagianis: Minister, if I can be frank, you know on your adjudication process. We've talked about the we've seen that decisions made by government in Jordan implications from other levels of government and their River have had consequences that ended up costing tax- processes. payers a lot of money to try and purchase back land for As the minister is aware, this is a highly charged and decisions that were made early on in the process. I think, highly contentious proposal in the community, and there in fact, the government has now determined that they're is a great deal of public opposition to this, including past going to put a little bit of money towards purchasing mayors that have led quite a strong opposition to this. I, back land because of a decision that was made. at one point, delivered a petition of 7,000 names to the [1605] Legislature in opposition to this. You know, the public impression of this — and I think Can the minister tell me: how much bearing does that that it's very valid and legitimate — is that a proponent public opinion have on your adjudication process? is asking for lease of a piece of provincially owned water lot which rightly, I think, in the public's view belongs to Hon. P. Bell: Again, this particular file may be a lit- the people of British Columbia. tle different than some other files. If we were the sole If such a huge opposition to this project has no bear- decision-maker on this particular file — if it was a re- ing on the province's decision-making process, then are mote location, if there wasn't a municipal government, we not following the same path that we did in Jordan if there wasn't the need for a Canadian environmental River? A decision is being made around public interest assessment review — then we would, of course, bring in a public water lot, yet the public opinion is not being more factors into our determination. included in this process. In a file of this nature, where there is a Canadian en- How do you explain that to the public, then? To say, vironmental assessment review, which determines if "Yeah, it is publicly owned at this point. The province there are environmental impacts to this decision, and owns the water lot…." The application is to lease it for a local municipal government, which I certainly believe a project that, I would say, very clearly a majority of the is the one that is best positioned to determine whether public that are concerned in this region about that have Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4771
opposed. How do you explain to them that their opinion nical mechanism in this process that does not take into on the use of this publicly owned piece of water lot is not consideration in their adjudication the very significant a critical red light in this adjudication process? public opposition to this. [1610] Hon. P. Bell: Again, just to take a step back, or two…. The mechanisms that are in place at the provincial In an environment where the provincial government has level that would halt this project, in fact, really are only responsibility for determining whether or not it is an ap- triggered by either the federal government or the mu- propriate use of a specific piece of property, that would nicipal government. Is that what the minister has really be an absolutely appropriate question to ask — where told me — that the province plays no significant deci- the provincial government has responsibility for under- sion-making role in this, other than taking their cue standing the use of it. from the other two levels of government but not from In this case the responsibility for determining what an the public? appropriate use is, is guided by municipal zoning. If the municipality were to choose to zone this lot in a differ- Hon. P. Bell: I need to add a couple of pieces, because ent way, then we would be guided by that decision. I think the member has been a bit narrow in her descrip- The member has been around the political world for tion of the role of government. I may not have been clear long enough to know that there is often overwhelming, in this area. or what appears to be overwhelming, opposition on a First of all, a red light from any one of the three groups file, because those that disapprove typically are the ones we've talked about — the Canadian Environmental that are the noisiest. The ones that like something tend Assessment Agency, Transport Canada or the munici- not to say too much. So we have to be guided by other pality — leads to an automatic red light from us. levels of government on decisions of this nature. We have an obligation to fulfil First Nations con- If the file was not a case…. The member for North sultation. Should we find, through the period of First Coast is here. If it was a piece of property, perhaps on Nations consultation, that there is a legitimate ob- Haida Gwaii, in a remote area where the provincial gov- jection on the part of the First Nation, that there is ernment had full responsibility for zoning, then clearly a potential infringement, then that leads us to one of we would incorporate those views in that decision ma- two potential outcomes — either not approving the trix. But in a major urban area where the municipality application going forward or finding an appropriate has full authority and responsibility for determining accommodation for the infringement. So that's the appropriate uses of the land, that, I think, is the appro- second piece. That's a key element that the member priate agency to follow. We would take our direction opposite should know. from that municipality, if they were to make a decision Then the other pieceI wanted to add is that we would around changing the zoning. take all the public input we've received through both the period of time where we just have open consultation and M. Karagianis: We have two cabinet ministers who also, currently, even in the adjudication process — the reside in this area. May I ask if they have approached public comment that comes in — and compare it to the you on behalf of the public and made application to you reports and work that we would receive from both agen- about this or made their views known about the marina cies of the federal government, Transport Canada and application? Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, and any direction that we get from the municipal government, Hon. P. Bell: I have met with both individuals on to ensure that anything within that public comment has this file and explained to them exactly what the pro- been addressed. cesses would be for a decision and an outcome on the If you found through that process that there was some file similar to the informationI 've provided the member public comment received where neither of the other opposite. agencies involved had addressed that, then we would go back and review that work. M. Karagianis: I guess at this point I will wrap up my Then finally, I would just add, as I mentioned earlier questions. If I can just review my understanding of this, and not specific to the file….I 'm speaking generally now, the federal government has jurisdiction over several as- but in any situation where we were dealing with a leased pects of approval of this project. Should they determine water lot, we always consider the riparian rights issue of to proceed, the provincial government would then look other residents and people in the area. That would be to the municipality for their guidance on this. another element. They would follow the guidance of the zoning deci- So there are some elements there that come into the sions should the municipality determine to leave the equation. I think, really, that the strongest advice I can zoning as it currently is or to put some restrictions on give the member opposite is that I think most of the it. The province, then, sees themselves strictly as a tech- feedback I have seen around this tends to revolve around 4772 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
this being an inappropriate use of this area. That's what amount of activity that was in the office and our ability people largely are saying. to service that office, and there has been very limited Some people are trying to build an environmental harvesting activity in the region for quite some time. In argument or a navigable waters argument, but at the end the end, that was the decision that we had to make — of the day I think really what they're saying is: "I don't not a pleasant one. It wasn't a happy day for me. It was want you to do this here," "I don't want to have to look a very difficult time as we worked through how we were at it," or "I don't want to deal with it." And that's fine. going to make those workforce adjustments, but they People have that right to make that comment. are what they are. But that is an issue of zoning and the use of that prop- erty. If municipal leaders choose to accept that advice G. Coons: Just before I get to my question…. Yes, it's from their constituent base, they have an option to fairly devastating to a community when you lose 11 or deal with that. If they choose to not deal with it, they 12 jobs. If that happened down south, it's equivalent to a shouldn't download that responsibility to another level couple of hundred, as the minister knows. of government. That's a municipal decision. My next question…. I'd like to get to the strategic land use plan on Haida Gwaii. For the last year and a half G. Coons: Before I ask my questions about the land there's been a promise of about 800,000 cubic metres for use agreement with Haida Gwaii, I would be remiss if the AAC. But again, it means very little unless the li- I didn't mention to the minister about the disappoint- censees, whether they're the Haida tenure or community ment of the closure of the forestry office in Prince forest, big companies or little companies that know what Rupert and some of the situations that are happening in land base they're working on. the northwest. It's been going on for years with quite a bit, a great The minister knows with the NDI, that they did the deal, of uncertainty for a lot of people on Haida Gwaii, presentation about the northwest being the hardest hit especially the forest industry. I'm just wondering what and the most oppressed region in the province. With the commitment there is to the existing workers and con- closure of this office we lost 12 to 14 full-time jobs, with tractors to ensure that their jobs are attached to the AAC people having to move. once this tenure reallocation has occurred. When will [1615] this tenure reallocation process be completed? I know that in some of the agreements they have, you [1620] could bump within a 50-kilometre radius or whatever. But with the nearest community being 150 kilometres Hon. P. Bell: I think that there were two or three ques- away, being able to take other jobs available in the pub- tions there, so I'll try and respond to them. lic service just means that every one of those 12 to 14 Harvesting rights were defined under Bill 13 sev- — and there were varying reports on the numbers — eral decades ago. Those rights stay with tenure as it is basically have to leave the community if they want to transferred from licensee to licensee. The log-harvesting continue working with the public service. individuals who hold those Bill 13 rights would con- I'm just wondering if the minister could comment on tinue to hold those Bill 13 rights post–tenure transfer. what he could say to the workers in that office. I think, more importantly, what the member was ask- ing is on local jobs on the islands for local loggers and Hon. P. Bell: First of all, I should probably say that how that would look. I think that is probably going to some of the confusion around numbers was likely my be a pretty good news story. Certainly, my sense is the fault. I think I was probably quoted as saying 12 to 14. Haida are committed to using local loggers wherever I recall an interview that I did, and it's actually 11 pos- they can on the tenure volume that they have. The com- itions that were impacted in the Prince Rupert office. I munities…. I would be shocked if they don't use local should make that clear. loggers on the tenure volumes that we are working on to The one other element that hasn't really been out there get into their hands. that I should advise the member opposite…. As he knows, As I suspect the member knows, there have been on- the initial thinking was that we would manage the Prince going negotiations on the part of both the Haida and, to Rupert operations out of the Queen Charlotte office, and a lesser extent, the communities on purchasing poten- we've had representation from, I guess, probably some of tial tenure from other licensees. the member's constituents. I'm not sure if they were from I think in the end this is going to be a pretty positive Prince Rupert or Terrace. Well, I'm sure they were from outcome for people on the islands. The member knows Prince Rupert, actually, asking that that work be done out I've been up there many, many times and have worked of Terrace, and we are reviewing that. Likely we'll have hard to try and create some value on the islands. I think in that region run out of Terrace, I suspect, in the end. the end this is going to work out very well for islanders. A very, very challenging time. At the end of the day The final question the member asked is kind of: when we looked at the amount of volume that was moving, the is this going to all be complete? I want to answer that, I Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4773
think, in two stages, because it is very, very complex — really quickly on ILMB, and then we're going to just the work that's going on. do the Olympic ticket portion of the exercise. Then I'd When you take an annual allowable cut from…. Well, say most of us will be moving around from member to I guess they were at about three million at one point — member. right? Yeah, I think they were up edging in on three Specifically, it's licence 343545, which is about 1,415 million metres — 1.8 million more recently. The 800,000 hectares. That is near the vicinity of Jumbo Creek and is a minimum number, and it may actually be higher Farnham Creek, and it's an area, again, that in our part than that. We're not convinced that it won't be closer to of the world the public has watched very, very carefully. a million than 800,000 metres, although there are vary- The minister might not be aware of this, but there was ing views on that particular issue. Regardless, obviously an actual quasi roadblock on the approach to this area. I pretty big changes there. think it would have been the summer of 2008. We hope to have the preliminary work and the defin- One of the questions that was raised with me was ition of the tenures and an understanding of that as we around public notification. If there was public notifica- get into the summer months of this year, and then the tion, the public didn't notice. People have gone back and cleanup work in through the fall. There may be some looked at newspapers. So I guess the question would be: legislative requirements as well. if you have on file that information with this tenure or In terms of what I think the member's really looking licence of occupation, was there public notification? If for, the kind of basic outline of how it all works…. We not, what's the rationale for it not being there? are actually in consultation with all of the groups that I've just mentioned already, talking to them about some Hon. P. Bell: We're not entirely sure that we under- preliminary thinking in that area. We hope to have that stand what this tenure is, but I heard the word "Jumbo" in a more formal package as we get into the summer. in the member's comments, so I'm guessing this relates to the Jumbo ski resort. I'll just ask if he could confirm G. Coons: Thank you, Minister. I guess over the that. years…. The minister mentioned "in the end." You know, "in the end" has had a long beginning. I'm sure the min- N. Macdonald: Well, it is the same company that ister has received the letters from Sandspit — "Our town now holds the tenure. At least it has the name Jumbo, is dying" — in 2006. It's renewed every year. Four years or it's Glacier Resorts Ltd., and there's an incorpora- later: "Our town is still dying." tion number and address that would be similar to one There are many, many on Haida Gwaii, whether of the proponents or the same as one of the proponents. it's Sandspit or Queen Charlotte or Port Clements or So it certainly connects in the public's mind, and it cer- Masset, who are looking for details that say a compen- tainly extends, as well, over an area that would be part sation package is also…. When the minister talks about of that resort development. I don't think it has anything this "in the end," the end, hopefully, will be this summer, to do with the development of the resort. I don't think but it may be quite a ways down the road. we're at that stage. But in the public's mind, it is linked I'm just wondering whether or not there are going to to that. be any compensation packages, whether for forest work- Just to give more perspective, there's about a 15-to- ers, for contractors or companies that, since the last 20-year period where it's been very contentious. From close to five years, have had negative impacts, financial my perspective, it's really important that the process be and economic job loss, etc., from the plan. Is there any very clean so that the people can leave feeling that the plan to communicate compensation packages? process has been proper. Of course, the public has con- [1625] cerns about whether it's been a fair process or not. I guess the first question would be: was there pub- Hon. P. Bell: Compensation in terms of reductions lic notification of the tenure or licence of occupation of annual allowable cuts is articulated in the Forest Act application? and is not easy, so I'll ask the member to refer to the [1630] Forest Act. I think it would be far too complex to try and describe it in this forum. But there are no broad com- Hon. P. Bell: I'm just going to ask the member to re- pensation regimes for other individuals planned, nor peat the file number.I t will obviously be in Hansard. But would that be appropriate. we're just going to e-mail the Cranbrook office to see As the member opposite knows, we did provide some if we can get a bit more detail. We think that this is a money to a cross-island development initiative, and we MTCA — Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts hope to see that move forward more aggressively as well. — file. They have responsibility for files around resort expansions and strategies. N. Macdonald: I, too, will just ask specifically on So we're not sure. We'll find out, and we can report an issue with ILMB. There are some general questions back to the member, certainly, before this process is 4774 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
complete. But we think that any of the consultation, ad- the 204 staff reductions in the Ministry of Forests and vertising — all those things — would have been done Range, and included in the associated information that through the Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts, was released at that point in time. not the integrated land management bureau. But if we could just get him to repeat the number one [H. Bloy in the chair.] more time, we'll file that in.U nfortunately, in Cranbrook it's 5:30 now, so the office will be closed. But we'll cer- It didn't perhaps get the public attention that the lar- tainly be able to get that information for Monday. ger number in forests did, but it was clearly identified in all of the media information. N. Macdonald: Maybe I'll just give a series of ques- I just asked staff if I provided the member opposite tions then, and it'll all be in Hansard. The number is with a breakdown for Forests and Range already, the 343545, and it's an agreement between, obviously, the impacts on each office.I asked staff if they were comfort- ministry responsible for the Land Act and Glacier able with me releasing this. I think we would certainly Resorts. It was commenced December 15, 2007. Now, be prepared to share it with the member. the area that's included is in the vicinity of Jumbo Creek Because the offices are much smaller in some cases, it and Farnham Glacier. It's about 1,400 hectares. doesn't take long to figure out exactly where the impact The concern that the community has expressed to me was in the office, so for personal confidentiality reasons, is that for this tenure, they didn't feel there was public we wouldn't kind of want it as a public document at notification. They didn't feel there was an opportunity this point yet. There's one individual that hasn't been for public input. That's the other complaint that's been notified yet, so there are some reasons like that.B ut cer- expressed to me. They didn't feel there wasF irst Nations tainly I would be prepared to sit down with the member notification. And it's in here. There is no security de- and the assistant critic and share this information with posit, which seems odd because part of what is going you. to take place here is some roadbuilding. There has been I'll walk the members through. Victoria — altogether some roadbuilding. There have been questions about there were 17 positions impacted out of the 38. So it's some of the things that were left up on site. not quite half of the positions, but very close to half the Basically, those are the concerns that the community positions. We did close the FrontCounter B.C. satellite has — that somehow this process to get this tenure didn't office here in Victoria.I t was seeing very limited activity. follow what would be the normally expected manner in We have the primary FrontCounter B.C. office located in which you would go forward and get a tenure. Obviously, Nanaimo, where most of the work goes on, and we just there are people in the area who are very familiar with weren't finding there was any level of activity here. There tenures. You have established heli-ski operators, and were individuals in administration and some spatial an- so on, that are watching this carefully and raising that alysis work and some First Nations consultation. question. In Nanaimo there were two. Kamloops was four, I guess what we'll do is, given that information…. If Nelson was five, and all of the rest of the areas were one the minister can check on that file, then we can con- or two individuals. I can walk the member through if he tinue with that on Monday or Tuesday morning. Okay? wants me to, area by area. I don't know whether he wants And then, just before we get to the Olympic ticket ques- that level of information, but it's 17 in Victoria, four in tions…. My colleague here, I think, is going to put you Kamloops, five inN elson, and all other areas were either through the paces, as she has all ministers. one or two individuals. Just going to page 37 of the service plan, it looks like there's about a $6.1 million difference. If the minister N. Macdonald: Just a sense of what work they were could explain that figure. Are there staff reductions? I'll involved in, especially the Victoria office. What was the just give you a whole series of questions that the minis- focus of that work? ter can go through. If there are staff reductions, how many FTEs? Have Hon. P. Bell: The Victoria office was a combination they been announced already? Is this something that the of management and administration. The FrontCounter minister is still dealing with as an issue? If there have been B.C. office I mentioned already, and then, in GeoBC changes to FTEs, where are the changes in terms of phys- some spatial analysis reductions were the bulk of the re- ically in the province, other changes? Also, what work ductions. It worked out to 9 percent of the staff currently were they doing? That's a whole number of questions, but located in Victoria. that might be the most efficient way to lay it out. [1635] N. Macdonald: At this time, I would just like to thank ILMB staff. I guess we'll be back on a couple of topics, Hon. P. Bell: There was a total of 38 staff reductions come Monday. I would just like to turn it over to the that was announced the same day that we announced Olympics critic. Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4775
K. Corrigan: Hon. Chair, it's nice to see you back information and forward it to the Olympic Secretariat of here again. We seem to coincide whenever I'm asking our activities with regards to the Olympics? And if that these questions. was the question, the answer to it is yes. I do have a few questions about the Olympics, and I'm wondering if the minister or any of his staff received K. Corrigan: And that information included the Olympic tickets or Paralympic tickets. When I say names of the people who had tickets, the people that the Olympics, I mean Olympics and Paralympics, if that's minister was hosting at the Olympics? okay. [1640] Hon. P. Bell: That's correct.
Hon. P. Bell: I'm not sure what the word "received" K. Corrigan: Were there other expenses associated means, so I'll just walk the member through, because I with this hosting that the minister did, things like hotels, suspect I have a reasonable idea of the information the meals, travel or other costs? If so, I'm wondering: what member opposite is looking for. were they? As the critic knows, the first week of the Olympics I spent in the Kootenays touring all of the different mills Hon. P. Bell: I'm not sure that we aren't kind of and operations and had an opportunity to meet with the treading into an area that wouldn't meet the test of an critic. The second week I was in Vancouver. I attended estimates discussion or debate. a total of three Olympic events. Two of them were as a I will tell the member opposite that I'm very for- result of hosting requirements or hosting requests. One tunate to have a brother that lives in North Vancouver, was tickets that my wife and I purchased for a women's and there were no hotel expenses incurred during the curling semi-final. Canada won, so that was a great Olympics as a result of that. If memory serves me cor- thing. That was very exciting. rectly, the flights were pretty cheap too. I don't know The two events that I attended were, on the Monday, why, but they were. But it also included that. a women's hockey game at GM Place, and I hosted the I was down for the entire week. If the member wanted probably top eight or ten customers — primarily from to ask that question, she could. It included a number of China, Japan and Korea; in fact, that's where they were other pieces of business that I did during the week that all from, those three areas — with British Columbia were not related to the Olympics but were related to my Forest Products. portfolio. On the Friday evening I attended short-track speed [1645] skating at the Pacific Coliseum and hosted a number of individuals from a provincial government in Korea, K. Corrigan: With that information, that which was at which we were working on their interests around associated with the Olympics…. And I'm thinking, for bioenergy. example, of…. The member said that there were seven or eight — eight, I think — people that were hosted at K. Corrigan: I would assume that, as in other cases, one of the events. So if there were any costs associated it was not this ministry that paid for those tickets, that with meals and so on, would that have been included in those tickets were paid for by the Olympic Secretariat. Is the report that went to the Olympic Secretariat, and if that the minister's understanding? not, is that information available?
Hon. P. Bell: That is my understanding. If that's what Hon. P. Bell: The report, as I understand it, is going everyone else has said, I guess that's right. to be released in two weeks, and I'm sure the member will have access to all the information she could possibly K. Corrigan: We have been promised a report on desire at that point. hosting and on the Olympic tickets within less than two weeks now. My understanding from speaking to the K. Corrigan: Just for clarification. The information Minister of State for the Olympics is that that report has that was forwarded to the Olympic Secretariat: did it in- gathered together the information from all the various clude the information that I just asked about — costs of ministries and ministers about what the hosting pro- hosting, other things? You know, those eight people — gram was in those ministries and the number of tickets, not just tickets but any expenses related to food or drink. and that that information has been forwarded from each I just want clarification that that information will be in ministry to the minister. Is that what has happened in that report. the case with this minister and ministry? Hon. P. Bell: I think we're well beyond the scope of Hon. P. Bell: I'm not sure I entirely understood the the estimates debate at this point. The report will be question. I think the question was: did we prepare some issued in two weeks, and the member will have full ac- 4776 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
cess to that report — or at whatever point. I mean, I K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if I could ask the minis- heard two weeks in question period today, as well, so I'll ter to bring that information back — perhaps next week accept that that's the time frame. I don't know that. But when estimates are on again. when that report is issued, I'm sure that all the informa- tion that was sent in will be available. Hon. P. Bell: If it was multiple staff, it wouldn't be a problem, I think, because then you're not identifying a The Chair: Member, I remind you that we're talking specific salary with a specific individual. Unfortunately, about Vote 34. You may not like some of the answers, it's one individual, so we would be disclosing their sal- but the questions are becoming repetitive, so if you ary. I honestly don't know whether we are allowed to do could move on to a new line of questioning. that or not, but we will check tomorrow. If we are able to provide that level of information K. Corrigan: Well, I think I will…. Perhaps if the legally, then we will. If we're not, though, then I wouldn't Chair would listen to what my next question is and then be in a position. I have no objection to releasing it. I just decide whether it's appropriate or not. I'm wondering don't know whether we're allowed to or not. We'll find how much is planned for hosting guests for Olympic that out for the member opposite. events in 2010-2011 and how much that compares with what was spent in 2009-2010. K. Corrigan: I would certainly not be opposed to receiving the dollar amount. I'm not concerned about Hon. P. Bell: In '09-10 there will be information re- whether or not we know the name of who that indi- leased. I think the member asked if there is going to be vidual is or what the position of that individual was. If a difference in the amount of money in the budget that there was even concern about saying how many hours is planned to be used for hosting purposes for the 2010 that individual worked — that that might then somehow Winter Olympics — if there's a difference in the budget identify that individual — I don't really care about get- between '09-10 and '10-11. Of course, the Olympics oc- ting that information either. curred in '09-10, so one would presume that there would The thing that I'm most concerned about is the dol- no longer be any funds available. lar amount that was associated with that individual, so But that information…. I think we're well beyond (a) if not telling us the number of hours worked makes it the scope of the Ministry of Forests and Range and (b) more anonymous, that would be fine with me as well — the scope of this discussion. I know there will be lots of including benefits. information available to the member within a couple of weeks, and I think I've already answered the questions in Hon. P. Bell: The challenge that I have…. I honestly terms of my activities and hosting that I participated in, don't know if this is a problem, and we'll find whether in the games. I don't remember the score of the hockey it is or not, but I just want to flag that there is only one game or the curling game, but we could go into details individual from the Ministry of Forests and Range that like that if the member wanted to. was on loan. If we disclose a dollar amount, then it doesn't take K. Corrigan: Well, many ministers have responded long to put one and one together to figure out what's go- to those questions. We did have a ruling previously that ing on. But that may not be an issue, and I don't know said that what has happened in the previous year can be that it is. We'll have to check with — whatever he's called relevant if you wanted to look at what the comparison is — the confidentiality guy. between the two years. But given that we do have assur- ances from the Minister of State for the Olympics that all K. Corrigan: There was also a program called the vol- this information is going to be in the report that we re- unteer leave matching program, wherein government ceive, then I will not press that question any further. would contribute an equal number of hours of paid I would like to ask about a different program. I'm leave to the number of hours the employee contributes wondering if the minister would be kind enough to tell of their own leave to volunteer for the 2010 Olympic me how many paid employees this ministry loaned to Games. I'm wondering if there were people involved the employee loan program, to VANOC, and how much in the volunteer leave matching program. If there were, the cost associated with that was, including benefits. what was the amount of time, dollars, associated with [1650] those individuals? [1655] Hon. P. Bell: The answer to the question is one. I apologize; I don't know the salary level that that person Hon. P. Bell: I'm advised that altogether, not just the was at. I'm not sure that that would be something we'd Ministry of Forests and Range but across government, disclose, but there was one individual from the Ministry 369 public servants volunteered at the games. The min- of Forests and Range that was provided on loan. istry breakdown levels are not something that we track, Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4777
but I'm told that altogether across government it was M. Sather: I wanted to engage the minister in a lit- 369. tle discussion about, I think, a very interesting piece of work that's been done by Dr. Jim Pojar. He did a report K. Corrigan: I believe that some ministries had that for a number of environmental organizations in British information. But this is not something that this ministry Columbia. would be aware of? I'm a little surprised, if people took It's an involved paper, and it's fairly complex, so I'm part in that program, that the ministry wouldn't have going to try my best to simplify and make some sense known about it. and get some comments from the minister. The thesis of it is basically about conserving biodiversity as it re- Hon. P. Bell: We don't have that level of information lates to fighting climate change. I'll say a few words to here today, but this is the first day of our estimates per- try to get into the subject and then turn to the minister iod. If the member wants to check back on Monday, we for some questions. could see if we have that available. [1700] Climate change is expected to happen faster and be K. Corrigan: I'm wondering if there were individuals more pronounced in B.C. than the global average, with that work in the ministry that were seconded, essen- mean annual temperatures warming by 3 to 5 degrees tially, to work entirely on the Olympics or substantially Celsius over the next 70 to 100 years. Dr. Pojar says on the Olympics either prior to or during the Olympic we can expect a general shift of the province's biogeo- period. climatic zones. For example, the mountain hemlock I fully understand that there were people in various zone is a biogeoclimatic zone; there are a number of ministries that put some amount of energy and that it them in the province. probably wasn't tracked, but I am interested in whether We can expect a shift from the southern half to the or not there were individuals that were essentially dedi- northern half of B.C., and we can expect further die- cated to working on the Olympics for some amount of backs of tree species such as we have experienced, of time. If so, what was the value of that time spent? course, with the beetle kill. We can expect expansion of dry forests in the south and central Interior and moister, Hon. P. Bell: I think that was the one individual that warmer forests farther north. He says that the ability of I referred to in my earlier comments, when the member species to adjust to these shifts will take decades, if not had asked a question earlier on. There was one individ- centuries. ual from the Ministry of Forests and Range that was These events will increase "summer droughts, spring seconded. frosts, fierce storms and floods," and we're seeing some of that now, of course. Greater genetic diversity — and this K. Corrigan: Sorry to be so picky about this, but when is a subject that he dwells on a fair bit — leads to greater we say "seconded," would that be for the employee loan adaptability to change. Those with insufficient genetic program, that were seconded to VANOC, then, which is variability may not be able to adapt to climate change. what the employee loan program was about? Landscapes that lose natural biodiversity become less productive, less stable, less resistant to environmental Hon. P. Bell: Again, we're kind of treading in dan- disturbances and thus less resilient. gerous territory here, because I'm not entirely sure. I'm Of course I want to focus his discussion around for- hoping I'm giving the member opposite the correct an- ests, because this is the Ministry of Forests and Range swers, but I think that's correct. that we're discussing. Forests are important for main- taining the diversity of all organisms. Natural forests K. Corrigan: Just finally, I'm wondering if there were have more diversity in terms of "genes, species, eco- other Olympic costs associated with this ministry that I systems, structure, function and interactions" than do may not have captured in the categories that I've asked "industrially managed forests," he says. about now. I'm wondering if the minister could just let "Climate change will erode the genetic diversity, con- me know if there were. temporary ranges and current degree of protection of… species and ecosystems." It will draw down the prov- Hon. P. Bell: The member may know that we hosted ince's natural capital and ecosystem services. The term a forestry day during the Olympics and had various dis- "ecosystem services" certainly may not be familiar with plays of aircraft and things like that. My understanding everyone. He defines them as "services provided by eco- is that all that information has been provided to the systems that benefit humans and are necessary for a Olympic Secretariat and will be included in the report. healthy planet, like oxygen production, carbon seques- tration, water purification, pollination, soil formation K. Corrigan: With that, I have no more questions, so and nutrient recycling" — all things, of course, that are I'll turn it back to my colleague. very essential to us. 4778 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
Here, for this discussion, I want to focus most on good to hear that the ministry is considering this body carbon sequestration — which, for those that may be of work as they move forward with the important job of listening in, simply means the fact of the matter that protecting our forests and promoting our forests. forests store carbon. They're made of carbon, and they In terms of the protection of biodiversity, parks come store carbon. That's where it becomes, of course, the into the question. Dr. Pojar says that B.C. parks will not issue around fighting climate change, because it's the re- protect all of B.C.'s biodiversity. The physical and bio- lease of carbon, as we all know, that's the major issue logical diversity of the province is still not represented. with climate change. Protected areas, Dr. Pojar says, are Most of the parks are too small and isolated to withstand "the pillars of biodiversity conservation," but protected human impacts, let alone climate change. The system is areas planning in the province "has not incorporated also skewed toward high elevations and less productive large-scale climate change" to this point. ecosystems. Can the minister comment on any of this, but par- He poses the question: "What is needed to protect ticularly with regard to protected areas planning and biodiversity in a changing world beyond the incom- incorporation of large-scale climate change? pletely representative 14 percent of the land base that is [1705] currently in protected areas? In other words, how much is enough?" Hon. P. Bell: The member went into a fair bit of detail He goes on to talk about meta-analysis. I don't want there, and it's kind of hard for me to respond to all the to get into that. I'm not even that familiar with it. "Meta- individual points, but I think that one of the key themes analyses of land use planning for conservation" — but of the question that the member opposite is asking is: is notwithstanding, it's comprehensive analysis — "have the province contemplating Dr. Pojar's work? And what found that the protected proportion of a region's land is the province doing to consider the possibility that base necessary to meet these conservation objectives we may see a significant change in our climate? I think lies between 25 and 75 percent," the median recommen- those were kind of two of the key themes. The answer to dation being 50 percent. the first question is yes. We're familiar with Dr. Pojar's In essence, what Dr. Pojar is saying is that we have work, and we do contemplate his work as we consider 15 percent or 14 percent conservation now. In or- what we need to do. der to maintain the biodiversity in our ecosystems, it's The real key question, though, that I think the mem- necessary that we have the resilience — the minister ber is asking is: is the province or is the Ministry of mentioned that word as well — to fight climate change, Forests and Range contemplating the issues of resilience and that we would need to move to a figure of about and adaptation in the light of the potential that Dr. Pojar 50 percent conservation. I'm wondering if the minister has indicated? The answer to that is very much yes, that could comment on that perspective that Dr. Pojar has we have had a reasonably aggressive program for a num- put forward. ber of years now, looking at the issue of adaptation. [1710] As we plan our silviculture activities, we are very care- ful planting the appropriate species. Not just for what Hon. P. Bell: Although the member mentioned the we think the weather patterns or the climate will be like number 14 percent a few times in terms of the parks, today, but also we try and plant species that will adapt to that does not even begin to represent the amount of pro- a new climate that we may encounter in 50 or 70 or 100 tection of the landscape that exists in the province. years or further on, depending on the nature of what it Just starting out though, there are roughly 95 mil- is that we're trying to accomplish. lion hectares in the province. Of that — I used to say We do that by using different types of seed that are 25 million — I'm now advised it's 23 million hectares categorized by geoclimatic zone. We have tree trials run- of actively managed timber-harvesting land base. So ning all the way from California to Alaska, covering off roughly 25 percent of the province is used for timber the complete kind of climate zonations that we might harvesting. The remaining 75 percent doesn't have tim- expect sometime in the future. ber harvesting on it. We have excellent research. We have a number of I would also point to the fact that while only 14 per- research facilities, but certainly the research facility at cent of the province is technically in park, there are many Kalamalka is one that I'd recommend that the member other forms of protection like old-growth management opposite do a tour of next time he's in the Okanagan. I areas, wildlife management areas, riparian management think he'd be very surprised at the work that's gone on areas — all those sort of things that preclude any form in the region and how far B.C. has advanced in this par- of development on them. ticular area. When you add all of those together, I am advised that it represents about 30 percent of the province. Those are M. Sather: I may have a chance to respond to what obviously all timbered areas. While I think 75 percent the minister said about planting. That's interesting. It's would be, perhaps, a laudable goal, I do think that we Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4779
are well advanced. In fact, when you compare British does look at representation and the quality of various Columbia to jurisdictions around the world, you're hard ecosystems. If we were to find that there was a lack of pressed to find any that have the level of protection that adequate representation…. we have in British Columbia. A good example for the member opposite would be The other key element I want to add for the member CDF — the coastal Douglas fir ecotype. It's very chal- opposite…. I often turn my mind to the work that was lenging to find a model that allows us to protect that. done in the Great Bear rain forest. I think that was a It's only a very small portion of the CDF that is located great example of a collaborative model that provided on Crown lands. The majority of it is on private lands. significant incremental protection — roughly 2.2 mil- So we're working very hard to have adequate represen- lion hectares, a little over a third of the total landscape tation of the CDF ecosystem available and protected. under protection in one form or another — and eco- We've done lots of work around that recently, as I think system-based management, a very light footprint form the member knows. of harvesting on the remainder of the landscape. The goal is not necessarily to have every single eco- That area continues to receive the endorsation of or- system in every location protected. It is to have adequate ganizations like ForestEthics and Greenpeace and has representation. That's why you have parks and protected recently received Forest Stewardship Council certifi- areas and all those other sorts of things. cation as well. So I don't think it is as simple as to say that you need a Class A park to have a representative M. Sather: Well, I can see I'm going to run short of ecosystem. We have a very, very high standard in this time to ask a lot of the questions I wanted to ask the province. I think that is something that all of us, as well minister. I'll move on, I think, at this point and per- as our children and our grandchildren, can be very haps come back to some of the other questions if I have proud of. time. One of the things that Dr. Pojar endorses is carbon M. Sather: Certainly, Dr. Pojar wasn't saying 50 per- offsets. I know that that's a very contentious issue. A lot cent. It was 50 percent…. He chose that number as sort of people are not convinced — or some people are not of the median between the 25 and the 75. He wasn't say- — that that is a mechanism that is worthy, I guess you ing that they need to all be Class A parks. could say, and that it has a lot of downsides to it. He also says that we don't have accurate informa- He's talking about conservation as a carbon offset. In tion about which ecosystems remain in a degraded state. other words, if we're maintaining carbon in our forests Degraded — I want to clarify — from his point of view, by not harvesting them, for example, then should we he's talking about the loss of biodiversity and the loss have a carbon offset for that? I wonder what the min- of carbon, not the fact that…. I mean, they may be har- ister's thinking, what the government's thinking, is on vested. It's not a pejorative word, but it's a descriptive that — if they're going that way or what kind of delibera- word of an ecologist. tions they've had around that question. He says that we need to address that knowledge gap. So with regard then to the ecosystems that would re- Hon. P. Bell: That work is being done by the Pacific main in a degraded state, as Dr. Pojar puts it — and I Carbon Trust and by the Western Climate Initiative, think staff are fairly familiar, as the minister has indi- both of which…. Well, the PacificC arbon Trust, I guess, cated, with his work — is the ministry doing anything to we have some role in. The WesternC limate Initiative we address that gap then? have significant representation on. [1715] I will probably ask the member opposite to ask those questions under the estimates of the Minister of State for Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite referred to Dr. Climate Action. He is closer to this file than I am. Pojar's work around degraded ecosystems, and I just I will say that I think, generally, the Ministry of Forests have to point out that the objective that we have, and and Range believes that you need to have a scientifically continue to maintain in the province, is representa- quantifiable demonstration that carbon is truly being tion of ecosystems. It doesn't necessarily mean that you incrementally sequestered and stored in order to qualify would have every piece of a specific ecotype in every for carbon offsets. area maintained at that level but that there would be The Pacific Carbon Trust recently released a call for representation of that ecotype available in a healthy carbon offsets. There were three different qualifying off- state. sets. The one that was not called for was conservation. That is the mandate that we have and the objective One of the challenges that is out there in the public be- that we pursue. It may be one that the member opposite ing debated right now is the issue of leakage. I think the disagrees with. I'm not sure. member's nodding, so he probably understands that. The other thing I would refer to is that we do issue For those at home that might be watching us and a report annually, the state of the forest report, that probably bored — and we always apologize for that if 4780 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010 we bore you — leakage is where although a forest is pro- logging of the few remaining stands of older coastal tected in one area and the timber that was planned to be Douglas fir forests remaining on Crown lands as so harvested in that area was not harvested, there has to be many have called for? This is a question that has been clear demonstration that that simply hasn't meant a shift put to me to ask the minister. of harvesting to another location. Otherwise, that would [1725] not be justifiable as a stored offset. Again, the member's nodding, and I'm assuming he Hon. P. Bell: Backing up here to coastal CDF. That agrees with me. actually is being done through the integrated land man- agement bureau side of the ministry. That's because of Interjection. their responsibility for planning and making those sorts of decisions. Unfortunately, I just have Forest Service Hon. P. Bell: The boring part he agrees with me. staff with me right now, so we're relying on my memory. [1720] It's a very dangerous thing when we do that, as opposed That is one of the very challenging aspects of this de- to the corporate memory that I would normally be sur- bate and discussion. I find it a stimulating and interesting rounded with. one because it's not often that we as legislators have the We did announce a commitment to move forward opportunity to engage in this level of discussion. It is on a significant amount of protection around CDF. As I something that's never been done. No one's ever talked mentioned earlier, it's a very small component that's ac- about the idea of how you establish appropriate offsets. tually publicly held. That's a challenge for us, because a How do you measure them? It will change the way that good bulk of CDF is privately held lands. We have been forest-based activities function in decades to come, and working with private land owners to try and get volun- it will change the way we all live in decades to come. tary compliance. We've got some good success in that I think it's a very interesting time to be involved. For area as well. So we do move forward on that. those of you that are really bored at home, I would en- If the member wants some specific details, we can courage you to go and look at the Western Climate provide that to him in this format on Monday, or if the Initiative website and get some information on this topic, member would like a briefing from staff,I 'd be happy to because it is a very, very important topic and a very im- do that. Whatever the member finds the most accept- portant discussion. That's only if we're really boring you able method of communicating that. at home, you can go do that. Otherwise, stay and watch Specific to the Nanoose parcel, I think the member us. opposite knows this is a First Nations licence. I was asked the question about this licence about a week or M. Sather: I have a couple of specific questions about ten days ago by the media. The response I gave them specific areas that I wanted to ask the minister about. at the time was that there'd been no…. Although it The coastal Douglas fir zone, which he referred to ear- was a part of a forest development plan, there has not lier, located primarily on southeastern Vancouver Island been a permit applied for on the particular site for and the Sunshine Coast, is an ecosystem so endangered harvesting. that the province's own Environment Ministry, in this Coincidentally, apparently the day afterI had told the case, suggests it could face extinction. Only one-half of media that, there was actually an application that came 1 percent of low coastal plain is covered by relatively un- for a cutting permit. That is under review at this point.I disturbed old forest — far below what scientists consider don't want to predetermine what the outcome of that re- to be a minimum required for the ecosystem's continued view is. I think we have to understand what the outcome survival. is. The statutory decision-maker in this case, clearly, will The Ministry of Forests and Range is considering pro- have a look at the ecotype and see if it's appropriate to tection for Crown parcels of forest land on Vancouver harvest in that zone. Island in Bowser, Little Qualicum, Nanoose and Linley I will point out, though, one thing I found interesting. Valley and one on the Sunshine Coast. Other coastal I saw an aerial photograph of this site the other day. It's fir forests on Crown land are at imminent risk of being very interesting, because this one particular area is still logged. One such forest is located near Nanoose Bay and forested, but everything around it has been developed. is known in the B.C. Forest Service as DL 33. It's not a large parcel of land, so the aerial photo that I Public support for preserving this parcel is wide- saw of it was quite interesting, in that everything else has spread, with many questioning the logic of logging in been developed in the region. For some reason, this one a known endangered ecosystem, including the regional parcel still exists. district of Nanaimo, which has called for a moratorium What I found very interesting was that it wasn't pri- on all logging in such parcels. vate. It clearly is squared off and in a shape that would My question is: will the Minister of Forests take steps indicate that it was privately held land. Perhaps it was to ensure that DL 33 is not logged, and will he ban the at one point and reverted to the Crown. If the mem- Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4781
ber would like more information, I'm happy to get that causing me concern and that I want to raise here for the either in this format on Monday if he chooses or in a minister to contemplate and reflect upon…. briefing to him — either-or. If he can't get back to me today, I certainly understand that. But this is an opportunity to get these questions M. Sather: I'm going poof here in about two minutes. on the record, so I would like to proceed, with your I have to disappear. I'm going to read another question indulgence. quickly, and I'll read the minister's response in Hansard. The first series of questions would have to do with the The Ministries of Environment and Forests have been violations of the forest practices act that were identified working together to designate as spotted owl habitat by ministry staff in advance of the bridge failure, to the 295,000 hectares of forests on provincial Crown and point of a stop-work order being issued at the site on provincial parklands. These lands have been — and in October 17, 2003. some cases, soon will be — put off-limits to logging in Can the minister advise this House if the ministry order to protect the owls' habitat so the species can re- completed an investigation with respect to the viola- cover in its Canadian range. tions of the Forest Practices Code that were identified Over the past century the owl has declined because and brought to the attention of the company, and did of logging in its habitat, from an estimated 500 pairs they have any bearing on the blowout of the bridge the to only two known pairs today. All in all, only six in- following day? dividuals are known to still survive. The province has undertaken a captive-breeding program, and the stated Hon. P. Bell: First of all, I definitely want to pass on all goal is to bring the population back up to 250 owls. our thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims The biggest problem is that the spotted owl habi- — a terrible accident that took place there a number of tat outside of the designated areas is still being logged years ago. under Ministry of Forests permits, due to the govern- I think the member is probably in receipt of the bulk ment's maximum 1 percent cap on lowering the annual of the information that I have here. There had been, as allowable cut for protecting habitat for species at risk, the member points out, a stop-work order put in place such as the spotted owl. by a Forest Service staff member. There has subse- The question that has been put to me is: will the min- quently been a fine levied on the work that had been ister abolish the cap on forest protection so that all done, which was deemed to be inappropriate. There remaining habitat of the spotted owl can be fully pro- was a thorough investigation, and the investigation tected and that this and other species at risk can be was completed, which did result in the fine of Kiewit brought back from the brink? construction. Also, there was a coroner's report completed, as I'm Hon. P. Bell: I know something about this file, be- sure the member opposite knows. The coroner's report cause I used to be responsible for the species-at-risk — and I am paraphrasing here — I believe found that the coordination office in my previous role as Minister of nature of the blowout of that bridge was a direct result of Agriculture and Lands. That office now resides with the a one-in-100-years — my recollection of the exact word- Ministry of Environment, and that question would be ing of the document — rainfall. While there may have better put to the Minister of Environment during his es- been some contribution as a result of some of the work timates process. that went on, it did not result in the blowout. [1730] The cause of the bridge washout was the inability of the ground to soak up the water that fell. It fell so quickly J. Horgan: It's a pleasure to see the minister and his that it then resulted in an overflow into Rutherford staff here today, andI 'm delighted to take to my feet and Creek, which resulted in the bridge washout. Again, I ask him a few questions in the time we have remaining. am only paraphrasing. I have read a briefing note on the The first series are sensitive and difficult.I don't know matter. I've not read the coroner's report, but that is the if the minister has the appropriate staff here, but I want advice that I've received. to get some questions on the record with respect to the Again, anytime you have a number of individuals lose Rutherford Creek Bridge blowout from 2003. I know their lives in something like this is, of course a very, very we're going back, hon. Chair, and I hope you'll indulge sad time, and our thought and prayers go out to the me. I know the minister will want to get some com- family of those victims. ments on the record. There's been a release of information through the J. Horgan: I do realize that these are old facts and Freedom of Information Act to Western Canada sensitive issues certainly for the families — the five lives Wilderness Committee. That information has been that were lost that tragic night on a rainy highway. I ap- made public. There have been media stories as recently preciate that the fact pattern is the responsibility of the as Sunday touching on this issue. The questions that are coroner in this situation. 4782 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 22, 2010
One of the challenges — to those who are flipping The challenge, though…. Again, I go back to incom- from Oprah to our proceedings here — is that the plete information to the public. Had this not appeared Freedom of Information Act is a refined tool, but quite in the newspaper, I don't believe I'd be standing here often it appears to be a blunt instrument. You know asking these questions. It's not that it's time-sensitive, you've got a 1,000-piece puzzle box, but you don't know but it does pose some questions — I think serious ques- if the 650 pieces that are in the box in the package that tions — about enforcement by ministry staff on power arrives in your mailbox are all pieces that go into that projects and other activities, industrial activities on the 1,000-piece puzzle. land base. It's a convoluted analogy, but the point is that we the I'm wondering if the minister could advise: based on receiving public — whether they be non-governmental the experiences at Rutherford Creek, is there any effort organizations, the media or the opposition — don't to increase enforcement on projects that are not trad- know if we've asked the right questions to get ministry itionally part of the ministry's core mandate, whether staff to provide the right information. that be gravel extraction that may involve licences, forest [1735] licences, or whether it be independent power projects? So I want to be specific about my question, and it The minister gets where I'm going with this. Have we is: if there was an investigation that was completed by increased the eyes and ears on the ground, or are we de- ministry staff that linked in any way the construction creasing the eyes and ears on the ground? practices at the independent power project with the eventual blowout of the bridge. The ministry may well Hon. P. Bell: Actually, we have shifted to a new pro- have downed tools on their preliminary investigation gram of compliance enforcement which we think will that made reference to…. I don't want to cite the in- help support particularly some of these non-traditional dividual's name, but a staff member of the minister on projects where the level of activity is different than October 18 wrote: "The bridge has been blown out. This we would normally have just simply in a harvesting may be related to Kiewit's work. I will be starting a major operation. investigation file." That's really what we're calling the regional manage- That's the end of the information that I have available ment coordination project, where we bring together all to me, but that then poses the question: did the ministry of the compliance enforcement teams from the different complete that investigation, or did they, in light of the ministries — the Ministry of Forests and Range, Ministry loss of life, pass on information that they had available of Agriculture and Lands, Ministry of Energy, Mines to them to the coroner? Did they hold that information? and Petroleum Resources, Ministry of Environment and Did they assume that the investigation that was done by the integrated land management bureau. other parties was sufficient and then focused only on the Each of those individuals are cross-trained to all of violations of the Forest Practices Code? the other individuals' responsibilities. So when an indi- vidual inspector goes out on an IPP site, they are capable Hon. P. Bell: I do understand the question. It is be- of not just verifying the appropriate levels of compliance yond my ability to answer that with the staff I have here, for forest-based activities, but they can look at the road but we've noted it, and we will respond back to the mem- permits. They can look at water permits. They can look ber on Monday or Tuesday through the estimates period at mining permits. So we think it's a far better model. because it's very specific in nature. Rather than having four or five different individuals As I understand it, the member is asking with regards to from government going out to inspect a site, it allows us the Forest Service staff person's comments that he would to go to that site with a single individual and do a much be engaging in a major investigation — in fact, was that more effective level of inspection. done, was that completed or not, and the nature of the [1740] outcome. I am tempted to answer yes to that. It is a ques- Instead of tripping over each other on a given site, tion that I think we just need to do a little research on and we can do more diverse inspections and get to sites make sure we're giving the correct answer to them. more frequently. It's a model that we started in the Terrace area about a year and a half ago. It's proven J. Horgan: I thank the minister for that, and I do ap- very successful, and we continue to grow that across preciate that…. I know how the estimates process works. the province. There are televisions all over the ministry now and staff people furiously going through files and looking for J. Horgan: I appreciate that improved compliance the answers to get into this room in the time we have and enforcement would be the objective of any respon- available, and I don't want to…. My message to them, if sible government. they're watching back at ministry headquarters: Monday I'm wondering if the minister can advise how the is absolutely fine, later in the week even better — even dispersement of FTEs is arranged. I know there have better, to the deputy. been recent layoffs in your ministry, and there have Thursday, April 22, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4783
been recent layoffs in the Ministry of Energy and Who has access to those lands for harvesting? Has that Mines. I've heard from a colleague, who's not here changed at all since 2007? now, about conservation officers and other Ministry of Environment staff that are no longer in place who Hon. P. Bell: I'm going to answer the member's ques- were there before. tion, but I'm not sure that he asked the question he wanted I'm hopeful that the minister will be able to tell me to ask, so we may have to come back on Monday. that the reductions are not a consolidation to find ef- The answer to the question in terms of the manage- ficiencies in terms of oversight but, in fact, that we're ment regime around TFLs is exactly the same as it's finding better people, we're training them more effect- always been. But I suspect the member is thinking about ively and they're doing a better job. the private lands, not the Crown lands.
Hon. P. Bell: RMCP was not designed to reduce staff. J. Horgan: Actually, I'm thinking about the Crown It was just intended to have a more appropriate, better lands. model of compliance and enforcement. Each individual remains in their hosted ministry. Hon. P. Bell: Oh, okay. So even though someone from Energy and Mines may go out and do an inspection — and that would include J. Horgan: Do they still have exclusive access? something to do with forestry, something to do with water, something to do with gravel extraction — that in- Hon. P. Bell: No, there is no…. This is going to be a dividual is still hosted by Energy, Mines and Petroleum long answer, so we should probably try and do it…. Or Resources. The Forest Service compliance and inspec- even, we can just chat about it. I'm happy to do that. tion officers are hosted inside the Ministry of Forests The management regime onTFL s continues to be what and Range. it was. There has been very little change.I t's not exclusive I know they want us to wrap up, but I'm just not sure access. There are requirements around what they can do. I answered the question, so I'll sit down and see if there's But I am happy to talk to the member, and we'll just get a one, quick. better understanding of what he was looking for. With that, I move that the committee rise, report J. Horgan: I'm going to ask another question, and we progress — significant progress, I will add — and seek can wrap up after that. We have just a minute or two left, leave to sit again. and this is my last shot. I'm now taking you to Vancouver Island — the timber Motion approved. licence formerly called tree farm licence 25. What man- agement regime is currently in place on those lands? The committee rose at 5:44 p.m.
Hansard Services
Director Jo-Anne Kern
Manager of Print Production Robert Sutherland
Post-Production Team Leader Christine Fedoruk
Editorial Team Leaders Laurel Bernard, Janet Brazier, Robyn Swanson
Senior Editor — Galleys Heather Bright
Technical Operations Officers Pamela Holmes, Emily Jacques, Dan Kerr
Indexers Shannon Ash, Julie McClung, Robin Rohrmoser
Researchers Jaime Apolonio, Mike Beninger
Editors Anton Baer, Aaron Ellingsen, Deirdre Gotto, Margaret Gracie, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Linda Guy, Barb Horricks, Bill Hrick, Paula Lee, Nicole Lindsay, Donna McCloskey, Bob McIntosh, Anne Maclean, Constance Maskery, Jill Milkert, Lind Miller, Lou Mitchell, Karol Morris, Dorothy Pearson, Erik Pedersen, Peggy Pedersen, Janet Pink, Amy Reiswig, Heather Warren, Arlene Wells, Glenn Wigmore
Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker.
Printing Agent Crown Publications, Queen's Printer for British Columbia 563 Superior St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 9V7 Toll-Free: 1-800-663-6105 telephone: (250) 387-6409 Fax: (250) 387-1120 e-mail: [email protected]
Rates Single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $396. GST extra.
www.leg.bc.ca
Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet. Question Period podcasts are available on the Internet.