1
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
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ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON FORMER PRISONERS OF WAR
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MEETING
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WEDNESDAY NOVEMBER 29, 2017
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The Committee met in Training Rooms A- C, Atlanta Regional Benefits Office, 1700 Clairmont Road, Decatur, Georgia, at 9:00 a.m., Robert Certain, Chairman, presiding.
PRESENT
ROBERT CERTAIN, Chairman
HARRY CORRE, Member
TOM HANTON, Member
JOSEPH MILLIGAN, Member
JEFF MOORE, Member
SHIRLEY QUARLES, Member
ELLIOTT SORTILLO, Member
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ALSO PRESENT
LESLIE WILLIAMS, Designated Federal Officer (DFO) E. MAQUEL MARSHALL, Alternate DFO ANNETTE P. WALKER, Director, Atlanta VA Medical Center (VAMC) RHONDA STURDIVANT, FPOW Program Advocate, Atlanta VAMC NAYANA AMBARDEKAR, Physician Medical Specialty Care, Atlanta VAMC STACEY POLLACK, Director, Mental Health, VA Central Office JELESSA BURNEY, Program Specialist, Advisory Committee Management Office AL BOCCHICCHIO, Director, Atlanta Regional Benefits Office ANNA CRENSHAW, Assistant Director, National Outreach & Web MARILYN CORRE THOMAS PRICE
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S
Open Session and Member Recognition Rev. Robert Certain, Chairman...... 4
Welcome and Overview of the Atlanta VA Healthcare System Annette Walker ...... 25
Roles and Responsibilities of the FPOW Program Advocate Rhonda Sturdivant...... 63
Networking Break ...... 102
Compensation and Pension Exams Dr. Nayana Ambardekar...... 103
Vet Center Services Stacey Pollack ...... 143
Networking Break ...... 177
Overview of the Robert E. Mitchell Center for Prisoner of War Studies Dr. Jeffrey Moore...... 178
Updates from SecVA & New Committee Members Jelessa Burney ...... 207
Adjourn...... 241
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
2 (9:05 a.m.)
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, rules of the
4game, one person talks at a time because it is
5being recorded and when you speak wait until I
6call on you and when you speak state your name
7first so he can make sure the minutes are all
8correct. Got it? All right, good.
9 Well, welcome to this session. For
10 those who may not know us let's go around and
11 just give a very brief introduction. I am Robert
12 Certain, Retired Air Force, Former Prisoner of
13 War, Chairman of the Committee.
14 MEMBER QUARLES: I am Shirley Quarles,
15 former Army, Retired Colonel, 28 years, and I
16 have been on this Committee for two years.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Good morning, everyone.
18 I am Leslie Williams, an Air Force veteran, and
19 your Designated Federal Officer.
20 MEMBER HANTON: Tom Hanton, Former POW
21 from Vietnam. This is my last year on the
22 Committee. I can't remember then I started, but
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1this is my second term. Retired Air Force, and
2that's it.
3 MEMBER CORRE: Harry Corre from West
4L.A., Ex-POW from Philippines and Japan.
5 MEMBER MOORE: Jeff Moore from
6Pensacola, Florida, Retired Navy and Retired
7Director, former Director of the Robert E.
8Mitchell Center for POW Studies in Pensacola,
9Florida.
10 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I am Joe Milligan,
11 Retired Air Force Colonel, former Vietnam POW.
12 MEMBER SORTILLO: Elliott Sortillo,
13 Retired Army Sergeant Major, POW in Korea.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And how about the
15 folks down, out there, introduce yourselves.
16 MR. BOCCHICCHIO: Good morning,
17 everyone. Al Bocchicchio, I am the Director of
18 the Atlanta Regional Office of Disability. I
19 have been here since 2008 and I started my career
20 with the VA in 1990, so welcome to Atlanta.
21 Anything you need, we have a gracious
22 host, I know you have a pretty full agenda on VHA
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1today and I think the non-medical benefits side
2tomorrow. If there is anything you need just
3give us a shout.
4 MS. CRENSHAW: I am Anna Crenshaw. I
5am the Assistant Director of the Benefits and
6Service for DVA and the FPOW is my program.
7 Leslie is one of my top program
8analysts. I am a retired Army pilot and I have
9been with DVA since 2000. I started my career at
10 the Atlanta Regional Office and Al was one of the
11 Directors.
12 (Laughter)
13 MS. STURDIVANT: Good morning. My
14 name is Rhonda Sturdivant. I am a licensed
15 clinical social worker and FPOW advocate from the
16 VHA.
17 I have been the VHA POW advocate since
18 2009. I am an Army, well a military brat. I
19 have every branch of the military from
20 grandfather, great-grandfather, on down to
21 brother and dad.
22 So this is why I am here. I have been
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1with VA since 2007. I started as an intern and
2came back full-time and no plans of leaving any
3time soon.
4 MS. CORRE: I am Marilyn Corre. I am
5married to Harry. I am a volunteer at the VA. I
6have been doing it for over 16 years. I spent
7seven years with Benefits and the rest with the
8hospital. Service Officer, I represent POWs, but
9I really like the work.
10 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: We're going to
11 bow to you, Marilyn.
12 MS. CORRE: Yes.
13 (Applause)
14 DR. POLLACK: I am Stacey Pollack. I
15 am with VHA and the Office of Mental Health and
16 Suicide Prevention and I have been with the VA
17 for about 20 years.
18 Prior to coming to the VA Central
19 Office and the VHA I worked at the Washington
20 D.C. VA as the Director of the Common Services
21 Program for over ten years and I am honored to be
22 here as well.
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1 MS. BURNEY: Good morning. I am
2Jelessa Burney. I am with the Office of the
3Secretary Advisory Committee Management Office
4and I have been with the VA 16 years starting my
5VA career at the VBA Regional Office in New
6Orleans. I am here to support.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, good, thanks.
8And we are going to defer general business until
9a little bit later, but I would like to discuss
10 some ideas I have had and if you remember ACMO
11 had recommended, Mr. Moragne had recommended that
12 we start liaising with other committees, advisory
13 committees that have similar kinds of interest.
14 And one way to do that is for us to
15 establish working groups of maybe two people to
16 go to those meetings, and so I would like to
17 develop a few working groups while we are here
18 and so I want you to be thinking about where you
19 would like to be, and those of you who thought
20 you were rotating off the first of October that's
21 been delayed.
22 Another piece of business we have is
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1to make sure we have our recommendations up to
2the Secretary for appointment to this Committee
3to replace you so that we don't have a debacle
4like we did a few years ago where people were
5rotated off and it took us 18 months or so to get
6new committee members approved.
7 So you are sort of indefinitely on
8hold until probably through the spring meeting so
9we can get those appointments for your
10 replacements. That is Shoshana and Tom I think
11 are the two, and then we'll also want to get --
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Hal Kushner.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And Hal Kushner.
14 Hal Kushner will be here tomorrow evening. So he
15 will be here I hope in time for dinner and will
16 be here for the Friday morning part of the
17 meeting.
18 And then so we can get those done and
19 then I would also like to see us get the next
20 group also in the approval process so those then
21 can be established by the 01 October transition
22 time, and Shirley is one.
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1 Who else comes off with me? I think
22018 I think I time out and maybe one or two
3others. And Lane Carson couldn't be here because
4he was out of the country, right?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: No. He is interviewing
6for another committee. I forget the name of the
7committee, but I know he is doing interviews.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
9 MEMBER SORTILLO: For Service
10 Academies.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: For Service Academies,
12 okay.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. So here
14 are my thoughts for working committees, one is to
15 meet with various stakeholders in the POW
16 advocacy business to recruit potential new
17 members with the term limits and the rotation
18 schedule and the fact that we can serve two terms
19 then is sort of a ragged time.
20 Some people who expire after three
21 years will pick up again but some others in that
22 same year will be rotating off. So we need to
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1have a sort of constant one or two people in the
2pipeline to get in there.
3 So the stakeholders I have in mind are
4people like the Nam-POWs, the American ex-POWs.
5The Korean War group is dissolved, right?
6 MEMBER SORTILLO: Yes, they have
7dissolved, but I have contact with them.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So Elliott has
9contact with most of them and some of them surely
10 are members of the American ex-POWs, so to go and
11 to talk to the leadership of these organizations
12 to get good nominations and good information in,
13 so that's one idea.
14 The other is to meet with and recruit
15 some high visibility people to testify to the
16 Committee. There are some folks who have their
17 finger on the pulse of what's going on with this
18 population, this small population, and ever
19 smaller population, subgroup of veterans known as
20 former prisoners of war and to come and talk to
21 us about issues they are discovering.
22 My third one would be to meet with
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1caregivers of POWs, so spouses, children, whoever
2the primary, you know, that former POW's main
3caregivers are that have concerns so that we can
4find out better and make it and advise the VA on
5how to work with those caregivers to give them
6the tools they need and the access they need
7because some of them will not be informed about
8what the VA provides.
9 And part of that, of course, is to --
10 our concerns are always to make sure that insofar
11 as we can help the VA and guide the VA to be in
12 touch with every known former prisoner of war in
13 their regions to invite them into the system and
14 to make sure they are properly rated and that
15 they and their caregivers and their spouses,
16 surviving spouses are properly cared for in
17 accordance with VA policies, rules, and the legal
18 stuff.
19 The other would be to set up groups of
20 caregivers, groups of liaisons from this
21 Committee who would go and meet with such groups
22 as the Family Caregiver and Survivor Advisory
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1Group, the Readjustment of Veterans Advisory
2Committee, Disability Compensation Committee, and
3the Geriatric and Gerontology, since, I hate to
4tell you this, but most of us are quickly getting
5into that.
6 In fact, we were told we were all in
7the Geriatrics Committee I think in New Orleans,
8wasn't it, when we heard that nasty comment.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
10 (Laughter)
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So if -- There are
12 some things that affect us that affect all other
13 veterans. There are some things that affect us
14 that the Mitchell Center particularly has
15 discovered that are sort of unique to our
16 experience and so we need to make sure that as
17 best we can that we give good advice and counsel
18 to the VA.
19 So if you will be thinking about those
20 and any others in a little bit then later today
21 and tomorrow we'll try to form those groups so
22 that we can -- And Leslie, I've asked Leslie to
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1find out when those other subcommittees are
2meeting in the next year so that we can make some
3plans to go and work with them.
4 It would be like at one day of their
5meeting, to go to their meetings and find out,
6you know, tell them what our concerns are from
7our reports, what we are discovering, and see if
8they have similar.
9 One of the suggestions that Mr.
10 Moragne gave to us a year or so ago was that when
11 we write a report if we know of another one of
12 those committees that is making a similar making
13 recommendation and we referred to it and that we
14 work with that committee to make our
15 recommendations the same, word for word the same,
16 so that it has a better chance of -- gives the VA
17 an easier way to approve, sort of like the
18 Conference Committee in the Congress, that's
19 supposed to help get laws approved, isn't it.
20 How is that working for us? Yes,
21 Joseph?
22 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Joe Milligan. Could
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1we get a list of the other committees as a
2reminder?
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes. And it's also
4on the web. If you go to the VA website you can
5look at the federal advisory committees and you
6will see the list.
7 I forget how -- There are 30-
8something, aren't there?
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Advisory Committees?
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
11 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: They've got 29.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Twenty-nine. I
13 thought it was around 30, so 29, some of which
14 have, you know, they are esoteric. I think they
15 are very specified and sort of narrow ways that
16 wouldn't affect us, but the ones I list are, when
17 I look down at the list those seem to be
18 committees that would have some kind of
19 relationship with what we are doing.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: And so just keep in
21 mind that at the New Orleans meeting Kirk Martin,
22 who is the Chairman for the Advisory Committee on
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1Disability Compensation, so the Committee did
2hear from him and that Committee is interested in
3working with FPOW.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you, Leslie.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: You're welcome.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And, you know, one
7of our ongoing concerns has been how the VA can
8urge former prisoners of war to get into the
9system.
10 That's one, because some of washed our
11 hands of the VA back in the '70s and some of us
12 have had bad experiences and won't forgive the VA
13 for something that happened 20 or 30 years ago.
14 And so trying to encourage them to try
15 it one more time is sometimes difficult. One of
16 the concerns that Fletcher used to voice was that
17 people are afraid to go in for a new protocol
18 physical because they are afraid that what they
19 had will be taken away from them and then one --
20 Yes?
21 MS. CORRE: Some years ago they sent
22 out -- in Las Cruces, New Mexico. They sent out
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1a letter to all the POWs saying that they wanted
2them to come back into the VA to be reevaluated
3and they were not to worry about their other
4benefits, they would not be touched.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Now that was Mrs.
6Corre speaking there for the record.
7 MS. CORRE: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, I know that,
9and the question is whether or not some of us
10 incorrigibles actually believed the letter.
11 MS. CORRE: Exactly.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And you can't make
13 somebody believe it.
14 MS. CORRE: Yes.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And the VA cannot
16 require anybody to come in for a protocol
17 physical. The other concern that I have had was,
18 and I heard at a Nam-POW reunion a couple of
19 weeks ago, was that the raters are inconsistent
20 across the whole VA and --
21 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: That's true.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- and some of them
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1don't, you know, say, well, that's not a problem,
2they don't look at all the presumptives, but if
3any former POW has any condition that is in the
4presumptive list they should automatically, they
5should at that point be rated at some percentage,
6and so that's not necessarily happening
7everywhere.
8 MS. CORRE: I agree.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And when it gets
10 into Agent Orange presumptives then that's a
11 whole other ball of wax because when the Agent
12 Orange presumptive area got extended into places
13 like Thailand aviators in Thailand said, well, I
14 was in Thailand I wasn't in South Vietnam.
15 I said, well, yes, and I worked with
16 a guy in Waco that had been turned down for one
17 of the Agent Orange presumptives and he had to,
18 fortunately he had photographs of Agent Orange
19 barrels right outside of his hooch and they
20 sprayed the perimeter of the taxiways and the
21 runways to keep the weeds down and, of course,
22 pilots tend to taxi with their canopies open.
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1 So he was breathing the stuff taxiing
2out. He was not walking to it like an Army
3soldier would do, but he was still potentially
4affected.
5 And finally after a long couple of
6years and an attorney who was working pro bono
7for him managed to get the Waco office to repent
8and properly rate him for that disability.
9 And as those you who have ever been
10 around Nam-POWs know we encourage people to keep
11 up with that because it's not so much for the
12 veteran but it also makes a big difference for
13 surviving spouses when it comes to DIC.
14 So we need to -- If we can help the VA
15 to figure out a better way or a more efficient
16 way to both get all the former POWs from all the
17 wars into the system first and then get them
18 properly rated for whatever is going on with them
19 across the system then we would be doing the VA
20 and our veteran population a big service. Any
21 other thoughts on that?
22 (No audible response)
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: In a little bit, in
2a few minutes, Annette Walker is expected to come
3in at 9:30. She is the hospital administrator
4here and was in Detroit for a lot of years and
5those of you who remember Fletcher on this
6Committee she knew him and was quite fond of him,
7so I look forward to hearing from her later this
8morning.
9 Let's see. That's looks like the next
10 thing on the agenda. Do we have other concerns
11 while we await that?
12 MS. WILLIAMS: We do not. So the
13 water is here.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So those of you who
15 want some water.
16 (Off microphone comments)
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you. I also
18 have -- I thought this had been sent to
19 everybody?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Well, no, so
21 they'll get it in their binder.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So the binders are
3being -- There was a problem with the binders.
4They will be coming in later, but the good news
5is our 2007 recommendations have been signed off
6by the Secretary.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Signed off, yes, by the
8Secretary.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The bad news is our
10 2016 is still in limbo.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Concurrent. Leslie
12 Williams for the record. So essentially the 2016
13 recommendations, now the good news about those is
14 the majority of the actions are complete.
15 However, they have not been signed off
16 by the Secretary and essentially that is because
17 he had to go through the concurrence process,
18 meaning several different business eyes in the VA
19 had to review it on multiple occasions.
20 So hopefully by the D.C. meeting we
21 will have them signed off.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Hopefully.
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1 MS. CRENSHAW: And remember that the
2Committee, the program changed the Program
3Office, so with that change the recommendations
4kind of got, just got stuck somewhere.
5 Once we unstuck them they started
6moving through the system. We had a change in
7VBA, a lot of changes in all of our program
8office management at that time went through a
9change, just as we went through the
10 administrative change, VBA went through a
11 transition with a lot of change.
12 So with the change of the program from
13 one business line to another the recommendations
14 were there but when new leadership came in, as
15 would normally happen, they get caught up.
16 So now we have moved them on through
17 the system. So as Leslie said we hope to have
18 them all finalized by the December meeting.
19 That's not an excuse, but it is an apology with
20 that transition.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Now if any of you
22 are historians and like to read a lot, Tom McNish
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1left us with all of the reports for the last 20
2years and the actions.
3 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Wow.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It would be nice if
5somebody has, if any of us have some time on our
6hands who would like to go through all those and
7summarize them, both the recommendations and the
8VA response, just to bring, because we bring new
9people up to speed. There she is.
10 MS. WALKER: Good morning.
11 (Multiple good mornings)
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So that we can
13 better inform people of our history and the
14 various trajectories that we have followed
15 through the years and how the VA has responded
16 and it will also give us a chance to look back
17 and see what has been approved so we can maybe
18 get a status report on how that's going over
19 time. So, again, if -- I've got all that stuff
20 in a dropbox.
21 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Joe Milligan. I was
22 going to ask, do you have it electronically?
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, it's all
2electronic. He didn't -- I told him I wouldn't
3accept paper.
4 (Laughter)
5 MEMBER QUARLES: Bob, I would love to
6read those reports.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. What I will
8do is put them into a dropbox and then send you
9access to it.
10 MEMBER QUARLES: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Annette Walker.
12 MS. WALKER: Good morning.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Welcome.
14 MS. WALKER: How is everyone doing?
15 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Good morning.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: This is Annette.
17 Annette, as I have mentioned earlier, is the
18 Director of the hospital here. It's good to see
19 you again. Retired Air Force, is that right?
20 MS. WALKER: Yes, Air Force.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
22 MS. WALKER: Air Force flight nurse.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you.
2 (Off the record comments)
3 MS. WALKER: Is it time for me?
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It's time for you.
5 MS. WALKER: Good morning, everyone.
6How are you all doing?
7 (Multiple responses)
8 MS. WALKER: Good. I am Annette
9Walker. I am the Medical Center Director of the
10 Atlanta VA Healthcare System. Can you all hear
11 me okay?
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Can he hear you is
13 the question since he is recording.
14 MS. WALKER: Okay, good, good.
15 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Do you want the
16 microphone?
17 MS. WALKER: I don't know. Do I need
18 the microphone? Is everyone hearing okay with me
19 talking like this?
20 (No audible response)
21 MS. WALKER: I can use the microphone
22 if we need to.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well that way we
2can make sure it's recorded for the --
3 MS. WALKER: Make sure it's recorded,
4okay. Okay, now I am not technology inclined so
5you make sure it's on.
6 (Off the record comments)
7 MS. WALKER: Okay, all right, good.
8How is that, is that any better?
9 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: That's good.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right.
11 MS. WALKER: I'm sorry about that.
12 Let me just tell you a little bit about myself.
13 I have been here at the Atlanta VA going on 12
14 months, no, 14 months.
15 I started in September of last year
16 but I am no stranger to the VA or to the POW
17 Advisory Group. I have been in the VA system
18 going on 24 years now.
19 I started out as a nurse manager at
20 the Detroit VA and worked my way up from being
21 nurse manager to the associate director there and
22 I was at the Detroit VA for 22-1/2 years.
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1 I spent the better part of that time
2from 2004 until the day I left in 2016 as the POW
3Coordinator. They switched it from POW
4Coordinator to Case Manager, but I will tell you
5that having that role was probably the most
6rewarding role that I have ever had as a nurse or
7working in the VA.
8 I met some very courageous men from
9all branches of the service and from all eras. I
10 had POWs that were part of the Korean War,
11 Vietnam War, and World War II.
12 I didn't have any Desert Storm POWs,
13 but certainly those three wars, and if any of you
14 know Robert Fletcher you all know he kept me in
15 line.
16 (Laughter)
17 MS. WALKER: And I still talk with Bob
18 today.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Amen, amen, amen.
20 MS. WALKER: Yes, I still talk with
21 Bob today on a regular basis. In fact I talked
22 with him when you all were due to come down in
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1September and he was going to come down as well
2because they have the event over at I think it
3was Marietta.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right, right.
5 MS. WALKER: And with the weather and
6everything it got delayed, but he sends his
7regards. I told him I was going to be meeting
8with you all again today, he sends his regards
9and he is doing pretty good, so he just wanted to
10 say hello to you all.
11 So let me tell you a little bit about
12 the Atlanta VA and how the work that we are doing
13 benefits all of our veterans, including our POWs,
14 but it also aligns closely with the Secretary's
15 top five priorities.
16 So the first page in your handout --
17 Does everyone have a copy of the handout?
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
19 MS. WALKER: The first page of your
20 handout kind of identifies our catchment area,
21 and let me just put this microphone up here for a
22 minute.
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1 Okay. It identifies our catchment
2area in all parts of the Georgia counties that we
3kind of intercept. We have a total of 14, 15
4sites of care right now.
5 Our veteran population, we are close
6to 110,000 users, folks who actually use our VA
7healthcare system.
8 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Wow.
9 MS. WALKER: And as you can see we are
10 encompassing several different counties. And the
11 second page has a copy, it shows you where our
12 clinics are located currently.
13 We are currently in Rome, Fulton
14 County Clinic, we have a clinic in Oakwood, we
15 have the Atlanta Clinic which is about maybe 2-
16 1/2 miles from the main hospital.
17 We have a clinic in Gwinnett County
18 where the Trinka Davis Veterans Village, which is
19 one of our community living centers, we have two
20 community centers total. We have the main
21 hospital which is in Decatur.
22 We have the clinic and a domiciliary
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1at Fort McPherson. We have a clinic in
2Stockbridge, Austell, Blairsville, Newnan,
3Lawrenceville, and also a Henderson Mill clinic.
4 And you will see later in our
5subsequent slides where we are planning to expand
6to in the future trying to accommodate the
7continued growth that we have here in Atlanta.
8 When I first moved down here the
9realtor that was trying to help me find someplace
10 to live told me that Atlanta is getting a million
11 new residents per year.
12 I don't know how many of that relates
13 as veterans, but I can tell you on average we're
14 probably getting about 100 new veterans enrolled
15 every week, if not more, at the Atlanta VA
16 Healthcare System.
17 So we are a 1A tertiary level
18 hospital. 1A means we are high in our intensity
19 of programs that we offer, including medical,
20 mental health, and surgical programs.
21 Atlanta VA has surgery that includes
22 cardiothoracic, we have neurosurgery, so we have
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1a wider gamut of service locations that we are
2currently taking care of.
3 We have over a million square feet of
4space at the main campus and if you've ever been
5to that big building that building is over 50
6plus years old and is need of a lot of
7improvements, but it's about 12 floors.
8 We had over a $700 million budget last
9year. We have over 4300 employees. And, as I
10 said, we have two community living centers, one
11 is at Trinka Davis which is at Carrollton, which
12 is about an hour and 45 minutes away from us, and
13 the other one is on our main campus at our CLC,
14 which is two floors.
15 Now the Trinka Davis Veterans Village
16 is interesting because that was donated to us by
17 a local entrepreneur, Ms. Trinka Davis, for us
18 to, for the specific use of veterans, and it's
19 not the normal nursing home type setting.
20 The veterans who live there are pretty
21 much self-sufficient. They have very nice
22 apartments that we call them to live in. They
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1have a community center there for veterans to be
2able to engage in a lot of different activities.
3 They work very closely with the VSOs
4in the area that takes them out on different
5outings. They have a chef that prepares their
6meals for them every single day.
7 They get to order what they want, so
8it's not the routine hospital-type food, it's the
9prepared meals right there for them. It's a very
10 nice environment for them.
11 We offer multiple services, your
12 typical services of mental health, primary care,
13 and surgical services, but I wanted to highlight
14 a few of our services.
15 We have just become a whole health
16 flagship. We are in the process now of staffing
17 that program up. We are working with the
18 national office.
19 We are one of 13 VAs, or 18 VAs,
20 rather, that is working to become a whole health
21 flagship. And what whole health means is that we
22 are not just looking at a disease or a diagnosis,
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1we're looking at the total patient and what
2impacts his or her healthcare.
3 And I forgot to mention I am a
4veteran, too, so I will be taking part in this as
5well. I am a flight nurse, former Air Force
6flight nurse as a matter of fact.
7 But the whole health process is it
8allows us to look at a veteran from a point of
9view of what impacts his or her care. What types
10 of things in your culture, in your daily life
11 that affects your care, and how can we
12 incorporate those things into your health
13 provision that we provide you.
14 So it doesn't help if you are a
15 hypertensive patient and you like to eat pork
16 every day and we don't take that into account.
17 How do we get across to you the best way to help
18 you all out with that, you know, not eating so
19 much pork, not eating so much salt, that improves
20 your hypertension.
21 If you are someone who has difficulty
22 seeing are you going to be able to read the
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1medication labels. How can we work on that to
2make sure that those kinds of things are
3improving.
4 And starting tomorrow we are having a
52-day training for all of our staff, to include
6all of our physicians in primary care, the
7leadership team, and we bring in also people in
8from other areas of the hospital, so all of it is
9going to be onboard with the whole healthcare
10 program.
11 In addition to looking at your disease
12 and to then how it impacts your healthcare or how
13 things in your life impact that disease we are
14 also alternative types of care.
15 We are going to be starting with
16 massage therapy, aromatherapy, acupuncture is
17 going to be one of those offerings that we make
18 as well, and we are going to provide this care
19 not just at the main hospital but throughout
20 several of our clinics as well.
21 Women's health is another one I know
22 is near and dear to a lot of our hearts. Our
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1women's health program is booming. We have over
212,000 women who use our services right now.
3 We have a total of about 14,500 that
4are enrolled and our women's health population is
5growing every single day, so we are making
6strides to improve that care to our women
7veterans.
8 One of the biggest things that we are
9trying to start now and pilot now is the
10 mammography program, and the mammography program
11 is not just going to benefit female veterans it
12 will also benefit our male veterans.
13 Currently in order to get a
14 mammography we have to send you out into the
15 community to receive that care and you know if
16 you go out into the community sometimes things
17 get a little fragmented, it may take a little
18 more time to get the care that you need.
19 So we want to create one-stop shopping
20 at the Atlanta VA Medical Center so that all of
21 our veterans can see the mammography care within
22 our program.
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1 We currently have on average about
24000 people that we send out every year for
3mammography care and trying to coordinate that
4care is quite difficult.
5 So we put forth a plan to the Central
6Office and we're waiting for approval on that.
7Teleprimary care is another big area that we were
8focusing on.
9 We know that sometimes it is difficult
10 for veterans to get to the main hospital and
11 those of you who experienced the Atlanta traffic,
12 yes, that's not something that's easy to do, and
13 a lot of our veterans don't like coming to the
14 main hospital because of that traffic.
15 So by the time you get down to the
16 main hospital and find a place to park, if you're
17 lucky, and then get into the clinic, it becomes a
18 long day.
19 So we have expanded our services for
20 telehealth. We are one of the teleprimary care
21 health hubs. We are working to expand care more
22 into the rural areas where there is access to
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1care.
2 This is a bit more difficult than what
3we are able to do in the main hospital and we are
4working and partnering with several other
5facilities as well.
6 We are working with Dublin VA through
7such things as eye care over the telehealth
8system, dermatology care. So if you have a skin
9lesion or a skin problem the doctor doesn't have
10 to see you in person and face-to-face.
11 You could be at another site and they
12 can take a camera to help identify what that skin
13 source or skin irritation may be over the phone,
14 over that telehealth program.
15 Mental health is another service that
16 we currently offer under telehealth. So we
17 expanded our services and are offering quite a
18 bit more.
19 Other services that we offer that
20 sometimes we don't quite often talk about, VA has
21 45 residency training programs and as you all
22 know the VA is very big on training physicians
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1for future employment.
2 From what I understand some statistics
3show that about 70 percent of the doctors that
4currently exist in America now have had some type
5of rotation at the VA.
6 So we are partnering with the
7Morehouse School of Medicine and Emory School of
8Medicine to provide that care. We have resident
9trainees that come in on a regular basis that are
10 working with us.
11 And it's not just the medical
12 programs, we also have physician assistants, we
13 have respiratory physical therapists, we have
14 nurses from Emory that come and work with us as
15 well to help us improve our care and also to help
16 train the future doctors and nurses of the world.
17 We are currently a Magnet Designation
18 for nursing excellence. Our nurses work very hard
19 to obtain that designation to improve patient
20 outcomes and last year we completed 1.4 million
21 outpatient visits in our medical centers.
22 So for our top priorities at the
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1Atlanta VA we are closely aligned with the
2Secretary's top five priorities of greater choice
3for veterans, modernizing our systems, focusing
4on researches more efficiently, improving our
5timeliness, and suicide prevention.
6 Along with the top priorities, that
7improving our access, what I shared with you is
8that we have currently 15 sites of care but it's
9not just increasing the number of sites of care,
10 it's also expanding our hours so that we
11 accommodate veterans to come in different times
12 of the day.
13 We have Saturday clinics currently, we
14 are expanding our hours to have clinics later in
15 the day as well. We are improving our wait
16 times. Our current wait times are, for mental
17 health you can get seen the same day if you have
18 a mental health crisis.
19 We have what you'd call an open door,
20 or just a 24/7 open door process where social
21 workers are covering that area and anyone that
22 comes in with a mental health need or a social
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1crisis, they say they're homeless or they don't
2have money or they may be out of medications, we
3have folks that can help them out on a regular
4basis.
5 Our wait times to be seen for an
6appointment is about 1.4 days in mental health
7but we also have a same-day walk-in service.
8Primary care we also have same-day walk-in
9availability for primary care, but you can also
10 contact your primary care provider by phone, and
11 how many of you know about secure messaging where
12 you can email your provider if you have a
13 question or a concern, so we do make that
14 available to everyone as well.
15 Specialty care, we're still working on
16 that. That's about a nine to 10-day wait time
17 for specialty care. So if you need to see a
18 cardiologist or a surgeon that does take a little
19 bit longer, but sometimes our appointments for
20 specific types of specialty care we end up going
21 past the 30-day limit and that's where we end up
22 sending patients out into the community for care
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1through the Choice Program.
2 I know everyone knows about the Choice
3Program. We are fortunate to be a pilot for the
4new program that is coming down the pipe for
5Choice.
6 We have -- Currently we are working
7with the VA Chief Business Office to set the tone
8for how Choice is going to look in the future.
9There is going to be a lot more care coordination
10 on our part so we won't rely so heavily on that
11 third-party person to make the appointments and
12 to make sure we get the results back.
13 We are staffing it now to make sure
14 that we have the opportunity to make that
15 seamless to the veteran, because that's probably
16 our biggest complaint that we have at the Atlanta
17 VA is that you sent me out on Choice, it took me
18 forever to get an appointment, and now you don't
19 have my results.
20 So we're working on trying to improve
21 that and when we are doing so it's becoming a
22 pilot for the way forward for how Choice is going
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1to look in the future.
2 Working on informing our veterans is
3a big, big priority for all of us. There are so
4many things that the veterans don't know about
5the VA and what's available to them and as we
6work towards improving our care we are also
7working towards improving our communication to
8our veterans.
9 One of the top priorities that the
10 Secretary had for us is to partner with local
11 community programs, and we work closely with the
12 community service boards.
13 We have VETLANTA, which is a new
14 community service board and it started up
15 probably about a year or so ago, and we just
16 partnered with them to work on three different
17 things for veterans in the Atlanta area.
18 One is focusing on improving the
19 communication about services available to the VA,
20 another one is focusing more on women's health,
21 and a third one is making sure that we are timely
22 with our access, timely with our education, and
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1making sure we get out and partner more often
2with our veterans in the community.
3 It's amazing to me when I find out
4what people don't know about the VA. It took me
5awhile to learn it once I got in, but there is so
6many things available that people just aren't
7familiar with so getting out there in the
8community and talking more, partnering with our
9community services, working with people on
10 homelessness, working with the city and the state
11 agencies on homelessness.
12 Dr. Lynch (phonetic) and I, she's with
13 me today, she is my congressional liaison, I can
14 tell you we stalk the halls of our Congress
15 leaders on a regular basis to hear their
16 concerns, to bring concerns back to them about
17 what their constituents are saying and helping us
18 to work on resolving some of our problems.
19 So those community resources helps us
20 to better improve the services to veterans all
21 along.
22 Another one of the Secretary's top
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1priorities is modernization of the VA. He talked
2specifically about IT modernization and making
3sure that we do a lot more with our electronic
4medical record.
5 So you all know that we're going to
6move to a new electronic record which will make
7it easier for us to communicate with outside
8facilities about the care that is being received
9for veterans on the outside.
10 But what we are doing specifically at
11 the Atlanta VA, one of the biggest concerns that
12 I hear about all the time is that you can't get
13 through to you all on the phone, and that's a
14 big, big problem.
15 We are working to improve our
16 infrastructure for the phone system. What's
17 happening is that Atlanta is growing so big and
18 we are including so many sites of care we ran out
19 of phone numbers.
20 And so the numbers that we currently
21 have are overloading the circuit, so we're
22 working with IT to move from a four digit
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1extension to a six digit extension, and I'll tell
2you I'm confused already trying to call in.
3 So I know it's going to be a big point
4of confusion for our veterans but we're working
5more to communicate to veterans about this
6change, letting them know that this change is
7coming about in January.
8 That will give us more lines of access
9and help to kind of decrease or minimize the wait
10 times or the drop calls that we are currently
11 experiencing.
12 We are also doing some education and
13 training for our staff about how to answer the
14 phones and to make sure they answer the phones
15 with a smile as opposed to hello, VA, may I help
16 you, if they say hello, so we are working to
17 improve that as well.
18 Modernization also includes some of
19 our construction projects. One of the biggest
20 things that we are working on that is going to be
21 coming up in the next couple of months is
22 parking.
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1 We are going to add two additional
2spaces to our existing parking, not spaces, lord
3help us if we only add two spaces, we're adding
4two additional decks that will hopefully get us
5to about 300 plus parking spaces in the coming
6months.
7 That's a big dis-satisfier for a lot
8of our veterans coming in, that they circle
9around and they have to find a place to park, but
10 we also have valet parking which has been a big
11 improvement for our veterans.
12 They come in, someone else parks their
13 car for them. I think we've park close to 80,000
14 cars since the inception of it last year in March
15 and we are looking to enhance that service,
16 particularly with the construction about to
17 start.
18 I expect it to be a bit more
19 complicated to find a parking space, so one of
20 the things that we are going to really work on
21 doing is making sure that we increase our number
22 of valet staff onboard to make sure that we have
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1valets available to park patients' cars while
2they build this construction project.
3 We are expecting that probably to last
4about a year, so I am getting ready for all the
5concerns that are going to come up as a result of
6that.
7 Some of our construction projects are
8included in your packet. In addition to the
9current sites up here that we have we are adding
10 on eight additional clinics.
11 So for the Austell area we're going to
12 include and add a mental health clinic. In
13 Gwinnett County we are replacing the current
14 clinic that is there and expanding the clinic
15 with adding some additional spaces for some more
16 teams to be there.
17 Northeast Cobb is going to be a new
18 clinic. The South Fulton mental health clinic is
19 going to be redesigned. Austell is going to have
20 a replacement clinic, that Austell clinic was
21 kind of old when we moved in there so it's time
22 to get that one replaced.
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1 Newton County is a new market, that's
2going to be a new clinic for us. Northeast
3Georgia for ICARE is going to be opening up.
4And, also, we have a Fulton County clinic and
5also a Pike that's going to open up.
6 In the end all total we're going to
7have 23 different sites of care for veterans to
8be able to go to and I do think that if we build
9it they come and that probably will not be
10 enough.
11 Focusing on resources more efficiently
12 is also one of our areas of concern that we are
13 working on to make sure that we have the right
14 resources in the right place to take care of
15 those foundational services such as primary care,
16 spinal cord injury, and ensuring that we take
17 care, have monies available to take care of those
18 areas of responsibility.
19 We are working closely to manage the
20 money that we receive. We have what we need to
21 set the priorities that we need to set to take
22 care of our veterans and it's just a matter of
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1making sure we stay focused on those priorities
2and focus on those foundational needs that we
3have identified.
4 And, finally, I'll talk to you a
5little bit about suicide prevention. That is one
6of the Secretary's top priorities and we have
7been really focusing on doing all we can to get
8the word out to families and veterans and also
9our fellow veterans about watching out for the
10 signs of suicide, watching out for signs that
11 people are depressed or their demeanor has
12 changed, making sure that people are connected
13 with the veteran's crisis line and knowing that
14 they understand what those phone numbers are.
15 We do outreach on a regular basis. I
16 think we're probably out in the community four or
17 five times a month, if not more, talking about
18 the things that are available for veterans at the
19 VA to make certain that people understand that
20 this is a top priority and we are real concerned
21 about the 20 suicides per day with only seven of
22 them actually seeking VA care, particularly when
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1we have all these sites of care why aren't they
2coming in and what can we do to change that and
3prevent that.
4 Other than the fact that I have a
5robust staff of 4300 people who work diligently
6to take care of all of our veterans on a daily
7basis I think that the one thing I get out of
8being a part of the Atlanta VA is that it is
9massive, it is big, and it keeps me busy.
10 I'm running from one thing to another,
11 but all in a good faith of taking care of our
12 veterans. And I really want to emphasize again
13 the heartfelt joy I get out of working with the
14 POWs.
15 When Ms. Sturdivant, when I first came
16 actually she was one of the first people I
17 contacted, okay, where is our POW program and
18 what are we doing with our POW program, because I
19 hated that I left the guys in Detroit and I still
20 converse with them on a regular basis because I
21 get concerned about them and make sure that their
22 needs are being met.
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1 And the one thing I focus on with them
2is that everything they are offering our veterans
3in the VA is available to them as well. I think
4we have a very good advocate in our POW
5Coordinator, Ms. Sturdivant.
6 She works very diligently. And I
7don't know if she has had a chance to speak yet,
8but when she does get up she will tell you that
9one of the things we just did recently was
10 establishing the Missing Man Table.
11 The Atlanta VA did not have that
12 there, and it was interesting, when we
13 established the Missing Man Table you can't
14 believe the reaction that we got from people when
15 they found out what that table really meant.
16 We actually saw veterans standing
17 there with tears in their eyes, streaming down
18 their faces, thinking about what they may have
19 gone through or what some of their colleagues
20 have gone through as being a prisoner of war.
21 So I think that that helped us to kind
22 of re-focus the Atlanta VA on a mission to make
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1sure that we don't forget the POWs and our MIAs.
2 And we have been very fortunate to
3have Angela, I'm sorry, Rhonda, rather, being a
4part of our team and working with us closely.
5And I think I will leave the last few minutes for
6some questions if you have any questions for me.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Annette, this is
8Robert Certain --
9 MS. WALKER: Yes, sir?
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- do you have a
11 trained and qualified specific doctor on the
12 staff whose job is the POW physician?
13 MS. WALKER: We have a primary care
14 provider and I think Rhonda can tell you a little
15 bit more about that when she comes up and talks
16 and she'll know exactly who that is.
17 I know that's one of the requirements
18 of the 2011 Directive, not only that, to also
19 have trained folks that are working on the team
20 as a whole who have taken that certification
21 training, which I took several times, and I think
22 I am due to renew as well, so I need to kind of
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1get mine renewed as well.
2 And I don't know if they've had any
3conferences lately. You know, before they used
4to have the face-to-face conferences and I don't
5think we've had those --
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It's gone to
7online.
8 (Simultaneous speaking)
9 MS. WALKER: -- because Dr. Merryman
10 (phonetic) I think since he kind of retired I
11 don't know if we have had that continuing to
12 occur, so I would hate to have that fall off the
13 radar, so hopefully we can get that back again,
14 because that was one opportunity for VBA and VHA
15 to be a part of the team and work together
16 closely.
17 I know in Detroit I had a very good
18 working relationship with the folks at the
19 Detroit VBA to make sure that we connected with
20 our POWs and got them what they needed,
21 particularly filling out the DIC claims after
22 someone passed away.
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1 That was a really big effort that we
2put together to make sure that we didn't drop the
3ball on that. Any other questions? Yes, sir?
4 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes, this is Joe
5Milligan. Did you say you were an Air Force
6flight nurse?
7 MS. WALKER: Yes, sir.
8 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Oh, good. I wanted
9to ask a question that is not POW-specific, but
10 in trying to work with other committees that have
11 similar issues that POWs might have. My wife was
12 an Air Force flight nurse.
13 MS. WALKER: She's a good person.
14 MEMBER MILLIGAN: And my POW physician
15 in San Antonio said that your wife is eligible
16 for benefits since you are a POW but you need to
17 get her in here because she is eligible in her
18 own right as a Vietnam veteran.
19 MS. WALKER: Yes.
20 MEMBER MILLIGAN: The issue is, yes,
21 she was a flight nurse in Vietnam for two years
22 yet her DD-214, there is two blocks on it, Korea
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1and Vietnam, it's checked Korea, no, Vietnam, no.
2 MS. WALKER: Oh.
3 MEMBER MILLIGAN: The issue is she has
4no documentary proof that she was a flight nurse
5in Vietnam for two years because she wasn't
6assigned to Vietnam, she was stationed in Yokota,
7Japan, but commission was to fly in and out of
8Vietnam care for and pick up, or prepare and pick
9up patients, transport them back to the States.
10 MS. WALKER: So she was --
11 (Simultaneous speaking)
12 MEMBER MILLIGAN: And there were times
13 where she would actually be on the ground for a
14 2-week period in Vietnam on a voluntary basis
15 actually caring for patients, not just picking
16 them up --
17 MS. WALKER: Yes, sir.
18 MEMBER MILLIGAN: -- in places like
19 Cam Ranh Bay and Da Nang and Tan Son Nhut. There
20 were never any orders. This was typical of the
21 time. There were never any orders to Vietnam,
22 the orders were to Yokota, Japan.
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1 And so she can, of course, prove she
2was a veteran, but there is no documentary proof
3that she was ever in Vietnam and this is nearly
450 years ago and all the flight nurses that she
5served with have since, that she has kept in
6touch with, have since passed away, so she's got
7--
8 (Simultaneous speaking)
9 MEMBER MILLIGAN: -- nobody to verify
10 that she was ever in Vietnam.
11 MS. WALKER: To verify, hmm.
12 MEMBER MILLIGAN: As a flight nurse
13 what would you suggest?
14 MS. WALKER: Well I would think that
15 someone somewhere should have kept some type of
16 record, you know, flying hours, you know, just
17 the flying logs should have been referencing --
18 (Simultaneous speaking)
19 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Well, I mean I was
20 a pilot flying in Vietnam, none of -- Yes, I had
21 a flying log, none of them said I flew in
22 Vietnam.
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1 MS. WALKER: Yes.
2 MEMBER MILLIGAN: But flying in
3Vietnam doesn't mean you stepped foot in Vietnam.
4 MS. WALKER: Right, but it would be
5different for her because she was on the ground
6taking care of patients.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes, yes, that's
8right.
9 MS. WALKER: I don't know, is Al
10 coming to talk, maybe he might have insights on
11 to how we can get that taken care of. Do you
12 know where she served? Because I know --
13 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Oh, yes, yes, the
14 three places I mentioned --
15 MS. WALKER: Because I know a couple
16 of --
17 MEMBER MILLIGAN: -- were where she
18 served.
19 MS. WALKER: I'm going to give her a
20 name. I've got to get the address, the phone
21 number of the person I am thinking about --
22 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
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1 MS. WALKER: -- but Jane Markham was
2a Vietnam flight nurse and she was stationed
3there forever and she may have, be someone that
4your wife can reach out to because she was
5actually stationed there, coming and going, back
6and forth.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
8 MS. WALKER: And I'll try to find her
9phone number, but I don't know if I have it, but
10 give me your information. I will see if I can
11 get a hold of her, and that would be the one
12 person that I know of -- Actually there is two,
13 her and Esther Noah. There is two people that I
14 know of that were over in Vietnam.
15 Actually I think it was three, flight
16 nurses that I know of that were over in Vietnam,
17 so let me get you information. I will try and
18 connect with them and have them reach out to your
19 wife and maybe help her out.
20 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Okay.
21 (Simultaneous speaking)
22 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Okay. I mean the
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1same issue exists with pilots.
2 MS. WALKER: Yes.
3 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I got a phone call
4from VA in the State of Washington earlier this
5year concerning a pilot who happened to be my
6roommate in Ubon, Thailand, at the time I was
7shot down and he had the same type of issue.
8 (Simultaneous speaking)
9 MEMBER MILLIGAN: The VA said come on
10 in we need to evaluate you for herbicide orange
11 exposure and he had no proof that he was ever in
12 Vietnam because his orders were to Thailand, so
13 they called me, I could verify.
14 Believe it or not I still remembered
15 the months staying at locations that he went to.
16 (Simultaneous speaking)
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Robert Certain.
18 This was all part of the how many people do we
19 have in Vietnam scam that the Whiz Kids at the
20 Defense Department were pulling.
21 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: We were temporary,
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1I was temporary duty orders in Thailand and I was
2never in Vietnam. I was Short Tour PCS Ribbon,
3which is my funny ribbon, for the 3-month, 3-1/2
4month tour I had in Hanoi. Other than that I was
5never in Vietnam.
6 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes. I --
7 (Simultaneous speaking)
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So that's the
9issue. There is a study that I have
10 electronically that shows where Agent Orange was
11 used in the whole theater, and so I can get that
12 to you if you ask for it and then if you can
13 demonstrate you were there that's the first
14 thing.
15 The second thing is demonstrate you
16 were within 50 meters of usage, or some random
17 number like that, and that was the issue I had
18 with this aviator in Waco was that because, so he
19 lived, because he wasn't in the grass where it
20 was sprayed they were turning him down until we
21 added some additional information to it.
22 So, you know, that goes back to -- and
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1I am sure the same thing is going on, how many
2people do we have in the theaters today do not
3include air crews and other people who come in
4TDY or fly into the area for drops and supplies
5and fly out again.
6 You know, and remember the first
7cruise missile launched in Dessert Storm was
8launched by a B-52 that took off and landed at
9Barksdale, so the local flight, because it didn't
10 land 50 miles from where he took off, and it took
11 36 hours, or some number like that.
12 So while they were part of the war
13 effort they don't show up in the manning
14 documents and that's just the way that DoD has
15 done it at least since Vietnam.
16 MS. WALKER: Well, you know and I
17 learned the lesson from my uncle who was in
18 Vietnam, when I went to Desert Storm I kept a
19 journal, everything I did, every pill I had to
20 take, every shot they gave me, anything that they
21 did to me while I was there I kept --
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right, okay,
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1that's -- We're getting a little far afield, so
2to keep on schedule Rhonda Sturdivant is next.
3 MS. WALKER: Okay, Rhonda.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You have already
5referred to her.
6 MS. WALKER: Yes, I have. Come on up,
7Rhonda. And thank you, gentleman, for your
8service, thank you for continuing through the day
9to work towards making sure that our POWs are
10 taken care of.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you, Annette.
12 MS. WALKER: It amazes me still how
13 many guys don't have the 100 percent service
14 connected disability yet and we're still working
15 toward that effort to make sure.
16 I know in Detroit we would get 90
17 people in one year rated 100 percent service
18 connected disability. That just came from the
19 joint effort with the good folks at VBA and the
20 outreach outlets that we had to get those folks
21 in.
22 So with that I am going to turn it
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1over to Rhonda Sturdivant, our local POW
2Coordinator here at Atlanta. Thank you, ma'am.
3 MS. STURDIVANT: Thank you. Good
4morning. Can everyone hear me fine?
5 (Off the record comments)
6 MS. STURDIVANT: All right. Well good
7morning again. My name is Rhonda Sturdivant.
8Well before we go any further, since we now all
9have our binders if you turn my slides should be
10 included in this packet as well. Right? Yes.
11 Okay.
12 A general breakdown, of course, a
13 description of the definition of a POW from our
14 Congress and public law as far as entitlement and
15 benefit pack.
16 I won't bore you with reading all the
17 information because you all are aware of it
18 already.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, but is Tab 3,
20 we're on the bottom of Page 2, Tab 3, bottom of
21 Page 2, for this particular slide.
22 MS. STURDIVANT: Okay, we're all here,
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1all right, yes. As Director Walker was saying,
2compliance with the VHA Directive 2011 and the
3most recent update that was provided in 2016 that
4all medical centers are required to have an
5appropriate team composition, which is a minimum
6of four persons, two physicians, one treatment,
7one compensation and pension, one nurse, and a
8POW advocate.
9 Since Ms. Walker has joined us here in
10 Atlanta she has aided me in developing our
11 current team. Dr. Ambardekar is our CMP
12 evaluator, she has been actually in this role for
13 maybe four years or more, and Dr. Thomas Price is
14 our treatment physician.
15 He is actually over at our geriatric
16 department here at the Atlanta VA, so he has a,
17 as Dr. Certain here was advising, experience
18 working with veterans who are 70 and older,
19 because that's where our bronze team, our
20 geriatric team, focuses on here in Atlanta.
21 So he actually volunteered to join us
22 and become our treatment physician and has gone
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1through the training as well.
2 Vickie Spann-Reaves is the RN on our
3team, and myself as the FPOW Advocate. I am a
4licensed clinical social worker by trade and I am
5a social work supervisor, so I have served in
6this capacity for, as I stated, for about 6-1/2,
7almost seven years.
8 So in my role I have worked to
9identify POWs and manage referrals for services.
10 I assist with benefits as well as education
11 directly to the veteran and also their family,
12 widows, and caregivers.
13 Additional duties have included
14 management of the POW Remembrance Wall and for
15 this wall we share on the very first main hallway
16 of the medical center and we have created a, I
17 can't say a mural, but it's a dedication wall to
18 former prisoners of war who have been willing to
19 share their story, including usually an excerpt
20 from their direct report of their experience
21 while held in captivity as well as a photo.
22 A lot of the veterans have shared a
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1picture when they were first captured or prior to
2capture and a picture when they were safety
3returned.
4 Secondly, I host and plan for the POW
5Recognition Day reception. We had a period of
6time where we had a short break in services
7because we had a change in assignment of the POW
8coordinator duty, and that's before it
9transitioned to the title of advocate.
10 So since 2010 to present we have
11 maintained the POW Recognition Day each year.
12 Previously we had a speaker and we would bring
13 someone in to speak and then have the dedication
14 table, the dedication of the Missing Man Table,
15 and a reception to follow.
16 Based upon feedback that I received
17 form the veterans who participated we
18 transitioned into just having a reception. We
19 have a -- The primary veterans that have been
20 participating in the receptions for Atlanta are
21 from the World War II population.
22 I have about five active Vietnam era
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1veterans and most are still working so a lot of
2the times they are unable to attend because they
3are working. They go to the bigger celebration
4which is Andersonville.
5 But we are slowly trying to bring more
6around to become more actively involved, as Dr.
7Certain was saying, in receiving care from the VA
8and also participating in FPOW activities.
9 In addition to handling and hosting
10 the POW Day Reception I also manage MCM 00-31 as
11 far as any updates for presumptive conditions or
12 any changes that are set forth from a national
13 standpoint, I update them locally and make sure
14 that our Directive is aligned.
15 Our goals for our care are pretty much
16 the standard and aligned with the national
17 Directive as well. We are working diligently
18 towards getting our veterans ranked at a 100
19 percent service connected rating.
20 Some of the difficulty we are having
21 is that concern of when I come in and I go for a
22 C&P examination will my rating decrease, and
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1those that I have been able to work with I have
2always advised them what you have will not be
3bothered and some are willing to, or become
4receptive to, come in and having this evaluation
5done and working with me to help get them at a
6100 percent service connected rating.
7 Also, including explaining education
8and outreach amongst VA programs as far as
9educating staff on what the POW advocate role is,
10 what we offer, and what my duties are in
11 assisting veterans and families.
12 Also, with the local community. We
13 had in Atlanta an ex-POW chapter and that was
14 primarily ran by World War II veterans as well.
15 So when I initially took this position they had
16 about 30 participants on that team, on that
17 chapter for Atlanta.
18 So from 2010 until now that Atlanta
19 ex-POW chapter is about five and those that are
20 actively participating they are either now in
21 long-term care facilities, they are in nursing
22 homes, which includes nursing homes or assisted
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1living, or they are considering relocating to be
2closer to family.
3 So the barriers that I face now is
4that because the majority of the veterans that
5were more actively involved for the Atlanta ex-
6POW chapter are aging I have tried to help them
7with transitioning to other VA locations closer
8to their family so they have more support.
9 As far as -- I continue to advocate
10 for the advocates in the system of care
11 coordination. When I am contacted or when I have
12 a veteran that has been identified as a former
13 prisoner of war I try to meet with them directly
14 either face-to-face, telephone, clinic, I have
15 actually made home visits, and just trying to
16 see, okay, what's your current status, are you
17 connected to services as far as a primary care
18 team, have we made sure that your eligibility
19 status and your co-payments are properly coded so
20 you are not paying out of pocket unnecessarily,
21 and also what services are you in need of that I
22 can assist and coordinate on your behalf.
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1 The biggest one I have received is
2usually eye or dental. Those are two pretty big
3ones that I get called about probably about four
4or five times a month where they received dental
5services in the community for a certain amount of
6years and having to come back and have a
7reevaluation to make sure that the authorization
8is there for them to continue to receiving care
9in the community, and that is an adjustment
10 because for several years they were able to
11 receive the dental care at their local dentist
12 for many years and the VA would cover the
13 payment.
14 But when they made changes to the NVCC
15 and fee basis payment schedule it required
16 veterans to come back in to be seen by a VA
17 dental provider and then re-certified to continue
18 receiving those services again.
19 Many veterans did not come back and
20 wouldn't continue to receive their dental
21 services, so it seems that when they do learn
22 that the change is made that and that they really
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1do need to come back in for at least one visit, I
2get those phone calls and I assist in
3coordinating by scheduling the dental
4appointment, by making sure they have the
5transportation to get to and fro, seeing their
6options as far as dental because we do have
7dental available at more than one site at this
8point, and determining how they can get the re-
9certification sent back out to their dental
10 provider of choice in the community
11 The eye one is a little bit easier for
12 me, thankfully, because our eye clinics are not
13 as heavily bombarded as dental is sometimes and
14 they are able to work the veterans in very
15 quickly and get their needs addressed and have
16 them back out, get home.
17 Okay. My efforts and plans along with
18 our POW Committee is to increase our outreach
19 efforts. Because the Atlanta ex-POW chapter has
20 grown to, or decreased to such a smaller size,
21 trying to determine how we can reach out to that
22 Vietnam population.
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1 So we have recently identified a
2former prisoner of war who had been, well working
3towards getting his POW designation for 50 years.
4Similar to the case that Mr. Milligan said, this
5veteran served in Vietnam and was captured for
6literally 24 hours.
7 And during that 24-hour period he was
8not, he was recovered by someone in his squad and
9brought back home, but for the past 50 years he
10 has been working with VBA to identify himself as
11 a former prisoner of war.
12 He had letters and statements written
13 on his behalf, he has had, of course, the same
14 issues where his comrades were passing away, and
15 some continued throughout the years to continue
16 to advocate on his behalf where he was, his DD-
17 214 was updated in late August of this year and
18 he did participate in our FPOW ceremony this year
19 and it was his first time having that honor.
20 So what I have been working with him
21 specifically on is getting, since he now has his
22 DD-214 updated, having the VBA update him in the
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1record as a POW, having the VHA do the same thing
2as well, and also get those awards and medals
3that he never received.
4 So this is just one instance of how I
5am looking at what experiences have you had as
6far as decreasing in your ratings and how we can
7work with you to, one, get that rating back up to
8100 percent, make sure you are receiving all of
9the benefits and services that you are entitled
10 to with designation as a POW.
11 So I think I actually went through all
12 of these now, but the last one is the
13 coordination of are amongst the VA and community
14 resources as needed or as identified by veterans.
15 I have like a running panel, I have
16 created my POW list within our computerized
17 electronic system for medical health tracking,
18 and for that I have about 18 former prisoners of
19 war that are actively followed in our system, and
20 that means maintaining care within primary care,
21 coming for specialty care services, and/or just
22 maintaining their primary care and receiving
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1ongoing care in the community.
2 So they are two or three things that
3I maintain with them regularly. If they are
4followed by a non-VA provided and they receive an
5update or a change to their medical diagnosis I
6become a point of contact where they are able to
7have their doctor send me their medical records
8so that way when they do come back to the VA
9system for their annual visit it will already be
10 in the record.
11 And that is helpful because, one, they
12 have been diagnosed with a new condition and the
13 VA is not aware of it, we are at least trying to
14 make sure that their PCP is notified so that when
15 their medical diagnosis list in the VA side can
16 be properly updated, that if there are any
17 changes in medication and they are in need of the
18 medication to be transferred over to the VA
19 system in order to be dispersed by the VA I am
20 assisting with coordinating with the medical
21 office as well to make sure that all that, the
22 orders are sent over and that way the PCP that
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1works closely with them is able to transfer or at
2least transfer the scripts to VA.
3 And, finally, the future direction of
4our team is finalizing our POW Committee, because
5like I said Director Walker's presence has
6actually helped a great deal with me because it
7was myself and Dr. Ambardekar for quite some time
8and now we have another physician and a nurse
9that is working closely with us on a team and we
10 are establishing trying to have quarterly
11 meetings in order to determine what has been
12 going on with the veterans we have identified
13 over the past three months, what are we currently
14 working on, and what needs to be done moving
15 forward.
16 Myself, as far as the advocate, is,
17 again, increase my participation in community
18 events. In the past the Atlanta ex-POW chapter
19 had Christmas dinner, they had monthly meetings
20 in the community, and since that is a decrease I
21 am trying to see how that Vietnam population will
22 be able to continue those services so we can
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1still have some level of community and fellowship
2amongst this population.
3 And, lastly, establish a stronger
4connection with the, well the Vietnam era POWs.
5I have gotten in touch with our Vietnam group
6here locally and the president that works, he
7actually is very close to one of the POWs I am
8working with actively, gave me guidance on how to
9get in tuned with their group when they meet and
10 that they have a newsletter, so that way I can
11 actually share who I am, how to contact me, and
12 even if they are unwilling to come into the VA
13 for all care at least you know to get into the
14 system and get registered so we can work towards
15 addressing your benefits. Okay, any questions?
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: What group is that
17 that you're talking about that has the
18 newsletter?
19 MS. STURDIVANT: The Vietnam era
20 group. The Atlanta Vietnam Group.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The Atlanta Vietnam
22 Veterans Business --
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1 MS. STURDIVANT: They're not business,
2it's actually just a local group that --
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, Vietnam
4Veterans of America?
5 MS. STURDIVANT: -- was developed by
6Vietnam veterans. They're not under Vietnam
7Veterans of America, they've identified themself
8as Atlanta Vietnam, Atlanta VA Vietnam, actually,
9I have my email.
10 I can't think of the exact title. I
11 can look at my email and give you their exact
12 title, but they're not connected to a national
13 group, they've developed their own local. They
14 have a newsletter and they sent it out.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, I see. It
16 started out as a VBA group and they broke away
17 from the national and they have a local.
18 MS. STURDIVANT: Okay.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: But there are a
20 number of Vietnam Veterans who live in the city
21 that you could have reached out to, including me.
22 I was here for ten years and I have never heard,
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1I've called every year. I got one voicemail back
2from you and that was the only connection outside
3of --
4 MS. STURDIVANT: Okay.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And, in ten years
6of coming here for annual physicals, I've never
7saw a POW doctor. And the two doctors that I did
8see, when I asked them if they were trained, they
9mumbled something like, well yes. But they
10 weren't.
11 They were not trained to deal with
12 Former Prisoners of War. So I no longer live
13 here, since May, but this hospital is, until
14 Annette Walker came here, was letting this whole
15 area slide. And I thank Dr. Walker.
16 But I never heard of Ambardekar.
17 MS. WALKER: So we're going to, we're
18 working on --
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, good.
20 MS. WALKER: -- brought up, okay?
21 Because I know the first time I met you --
22 (Laughter)
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, we talked
2about that. And that's --
3 MS. WALKER: -- as you talked about.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- what I said,
5once you came here, it seems to be improving.
6 MS. WALKER: I have been here, I don't
7know, two months I think, three months --
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I didn't give you
9very much time.
10 MS. WALKER: -- and he shows up at my
11 door.
12 PARTICIPANT: No, it's one month.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: One month.
14 MS. WALKER: And he shows up at my
15 door. But, no, those times were very bad --
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And the only reason
17 Annette agreed to see me was because she thought
18 we were here to talk about women's issues --
19 (Laughter)
20 MS. WALKER: She surely came but she
21 didn't say she had a plus one.
22 (Laughter)
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1 MS. WALKER: Honestly had a plus one.
2But no, because of the fact I had taken care of
3POWs before I got this --
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I know.
5 MS. WALKER: -- because I knew exactly
6what was going on and what we had been talking
7about.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so this is --
9 MS. WALKER: But Rhonda's working very
10 hard. She's been a personal, a one person, a
11 one-woman team in recent years, trying to work on
12 making sure we have everything for our POWs.
13 And because it's so near and dear to
14 my heart, I decided to make it a priority for me,
15 as well as Rhonda, to kind of beef up the team.
16 Get out the bible, be more educated about the
17 different things that POWs experience. Different
18 from anybody else that went through war and been
19 active in your lives today.
20 I think about Bob Fletcher and the
21 stories he told and I see what's happening to him
22 today. I know it's directly related to what he
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1experienced as a POW.
2 And I think about my fellow co-worker
3who was a POW in Vietnam who, still to this day,
4it takes him a week to eat a sandwich because of
5what he was exposed to. So I get it.
6 Just through empathy and by virtue of
7listening to people and people that have said, I
8know how important it is. We did it as a VISN
9when I was in VISN11, with Ann Arbor, Battle
10 Creek and Saginaw.
11 We had a group dynamic going on with
12 all of our POW coordinators. Leslie Wiggins, who
13 is our VISN director, was a strong supporter of
14 POWs and she was she part of a national advisory
15 committee years ago.
16 So I'm sure we're going to be able to
17 resurrect that in the VISN light for our eight
18 hospitals in the VISN 7 region. That's covering
19 South Carolina, Georgia and Alabama, to kind of
20 resurrect POW coordinators.
21 We're going to support their need,
22 make sure our providers are trained. We're going
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1to work on that.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Two things then.
3Wayne Waddell and Marietta has probably got the
4names of every Vietnam POW in the region. That's
5who, that's what I recommend you actually work,
6the person you should work with.
7 MS. WALKER: Do you have his contact
8information?
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Sure I do.
10 MS. WALKER: That's and honest thing.
11 I think, I know --
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I'll send it to
13 you.
14 MS. WALKER: -- we used to have a
15 database of all of our POWs in the region. I
16 can't remember, I think it came from a DVA, but
17 whatever reason, that information ceased to come
18 into us, so it was very hard to connect with
19 people to reach out to them.
20 So we didn't have a database or a
21 listing of someone who has all that information,
22 we could certainly work on reaching out to them
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1to make sure there is a world, a stronger help to
2get that done. Yes, sir?
3 MEMBER MILLIGAN: This is Joe
4Milligan, I'm president of Nam-POWs and you can
5always contact me as far as --
6 MS. WALKER: Okay.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: -- Nam-POWs who are
8in the region.
9 MS. WALKER: Okay.
10 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I can do a quick
11 search. I have a database.
12 MS. WALKER: Okay, good. Are you --
13 MS. STURDIVANT: Thanks.
14 MS. WALKER: -- local, sir?
15 MEMBER MILLIGAN: No, I'm in San
16 Antonio.
17 MS. WALKER: All of you are from way
18 out of town. Well, how I'm going to reach out,
19 he's out of town, he left me, so you all out of
20 town as well.
21 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I'm in town as far
22 as the electronic capability.
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1 MS. WALKER: Okay, good.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: We're all local.
3 MS. WALKER: Mr. Moore, yes?
4 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, Jeff Moore. In
5looking at the map, it looks like there are maybe
6three catchment areas within in the State of
7Virginia? I mean, the State of Georgia, is that
8correct?
9 MS. WALKER: I forget how many
10 counties, something like total, how many counties
11 do we have?
12 MS. STURDIVANT: In Georgia there's
13 129 counties, in Georgia --
14 MEMBER MOORE: But this region does,
15 this region wouldn't be responsible for all
16 Vietnam era --
17 MS. WALKER: No, no, no. No, some of
18 our posts are covered by Dublin --
19 MEMBER MOORE: Dublin.
20 MS. WALKER: -- some are covered by
21 Augusta or --
22 MS. STURDIVANT: Or Cavis (phonetic).
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1Cavis covers a certain part of --
2 MS. WALKER: Cavis covers some.
3 MS. STURDIVANT: -- the southeast as
4well.
5 MS. WALKER: Well, that's why I'm
6saying that that whole regional approach to it,
7with us having partnerships with North Carolina
8and South Carolina, Alabama and Georgia, from a
9VISN level.
10 And I'll raise this up to Ms. Wiggins
11 when I get the chance to meet with her again
12 about resurrecting our POW group from the VISN
13 level to see what we can do, what she is offering
14 and do an outreach to all of our catchment areas.
15 MEMBER MOORE: Sure. I thought that
16 that was the case, so that everybody who lives in
17 Georgia, the patriots, the Vietnam era patriots,
18 34 of them let's say, somewhere in there, plus or
19 minus Bob Certain --
20 (Laughter)
21 MEMBER MOORE: -- not all of them
22 would be --
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1 MS. WALKER: In our catchment, right.
2 MEMBER MOORE: -- in this catchment.
3 MS. WALKER: That's why with us having
4the one network director that's responsible for
5all three states, we can make that more global
6and kind of work out and reach out to all of our
7POW coordinators in each of the eight facilities,
8to make sure we are capturing and talking to all
9of our POWs and trying to get them to come in and
10 get their exams done.
11 MEMBER MOORE: And I assume you have
12 the official DoD Vietnam POW list?
13 MS. STURDIVANT: No. I've actually
14 been requesting lists for quite a few years.
15 MEMBER MOORE: Okay.
16 (Simultaneously speaking)
17 MEMBER QUARLES: Ms. Sturdivant, but
18 I'm sorry --
19 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, we've got two --
20 MEMBER POLLOCK: -- perhaps I missed
21 this, but how many POWs you have in your
22 catchment area, how many?
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1 MS. STURDIVANT: I'm not sure, that's
2what I've been trying to figure out for the past
3six years.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The DoD list is
5open website so --
6 MS. STURDIVANT: Okay, perfect.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- we can get you
8that.
9 MS. STURDIVANT: Yes, you can.
10 MS. WALKER: We identified that some
11 months ago that certain information may not be
12 acceptable to everyone. We can certainly work on
13 getting a team together.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: One of the issues
15 we have with privacy laws is getting addresses.
16 And some people change their email address as
17 often as they change their underwear, so keeping
18 up with people is difficult, and we understand
19 that.
20 Getting a living address, a postal
21 address for people is difficult and sometimes
22 banned by law.
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1 MS. WALKER: Yes. One of the things
2we've done in past though, these lists used to
3come regularly to the Detroit VA, used to come to
4me directly, we would cross reference that list
5and run it against our enrollees to make sure
6that, okay, have I reached out to this person,
7have we talked to this person about coming in.
8 It's a daunting task when you don't
9get a name, you don't have a social number and
10 that sort of thing to work with, but it can be
11 done.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes. And so one of
13 the recommendations --
14 MEMBER MOORE: I've got a list.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- to help the VA
16 with this would be something along the lines of
17 easing the law so that names and addresses and
18 social security numbers can be accessed from the
19 DoD into the VA, for those people who have a need
20 to know, like Sturdivant here, who has a need to
21 know if she's going to do her job very, very
22 well.
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1 And every other coordinator and
2advocate in the VA system should have, should be
3able to get that information.
4 MS. WALKER: And the one thing that we
5felt from those face to face meetings was getting
6that information.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
8 MS. WALKER: Because we have the VBA,
9POW coordinators in the room with the VA POW
10 employees who would talk about their concerns and
11 how we could work on getting that information.
12 VBA probably has a better list of
13 people coming in for 100 percent disability, or
14 for disabilities period. We should be able to
15 share that information and make sure that they
16 reach out, and that we can reach out to them as
17 well.
18 But not having that face-to-face and
19 --
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I know. And we've
21 made that --
22 MS. WALKER: -- and not having any
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1conference calls --
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- recommendation
3to reestablish the face-to-face.
4 MS. WALKER: Right. And the
5conference calls. We had quarterly conference
6calls, I think with Dr. Lang, before he retired.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, yes.
8 MS. WALKER: So haven't had, I mean,
9as far as I know, there were like hundreds of
10 people on that line having a conversation about
11 the challenges that they were facing with either
12 coordinating care giving, getting information or
13 getting folks to come in. So having those types
14 of forms set up would be a big help.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, it's a --
16 MS. WALKER: That's just my opinion.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- it's a big
18 challenge for you because you have, every region
19 has antiquated computer systems and programs,
20 that don't necessarily talk across the whole
21 United States. And that's an expensive fix that
22 the VA has on their agenda. But getting it done
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1and getting it workable has been a bit of a
2challenge.
3 MS. WALKER: Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Because that's the
5way electronics are.
6 MS. WALKER: Right. And I want you
7all to keep in mind too that the POW advocate, a
8coordinator, that's the collateral duty.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
10 MS. WALKER: It's not a dedicated
11 position. So, I know Atlanta had, I was the
12 associate director, so I had everything else on
13 the chief operating officers side, but because
14 this was my passion, I wouldn't give it up. So I
15 took it on and kept it with me the whole time.
16 But for Rhonda and for all the other
17 POW coordinators, they have other assignments as
18 well. So we have to kind of carve out the time
19 for them to be able to do the things that we need
20 to do to make sure they have the outreach
21 capability, the information they need and the
22 time they need to reach out to our POWs as well.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The other thing we
2recommend, and in fact the last time I did a
3protocol physical, the rater would not see me
4unless I brought my wife with me. And I think
5that's an important thing for everybody in the
6system to understand that spouses need to come
7with the former POW because we lie.
8 MS. WALKER: Well, you don't always
9share everything.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, we have a
11 different reference. When I say I'm doing fine
12 it's based on my reference point --
13 MS. WALKER: Right.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- not yours as the
15 medical professional.
16 MS. WALKER: And not your wife's.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And not my wife's.
18 MS. WALKER: Right. Exactly.
19 Exactly. Because they see things that sometimes
20 you guys either won't admit to or don't know
21 about it.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes. It's just
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1normal for us.
2 MS. WALKER: Right.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And then the other
4one is, other people had it much worse. And
5while that's true, it's also irrelevant when it
6comes to a rating system.
7 MS. WALKER: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So, I encourage,
9always, to include the spouses, if there is one,
10 in interviews with the population. But you
11 already knew that.
12 MS. WALKER: Yes. I think I'm going
13 to go. I'm sorry, you had a question, sir?
14 MEMBER SORTILLO: Yes. Elliott
15 Sortillo. I assume, and that's bad, don't we all
16 have POW on our VA ID card? Is there any way --
17 MS. WALKER: You're supposed to. Yes,
18 it's supposed to --
19 MEMBER SORTILLO: It might be a
20 starting point if you can pull up just your
21 catchment areas.
22 MS. WALKER: Right. I think it's
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1supposed to be on your card. I know on my card
2it's just my, I'm not a POW so don't get me
3wrong, but it says just my branch of service on
4my VA ID card. Does anyone have a VA ID card?
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, here's --
6 MS. WALKER: I know Purple Heart is on
7there, I don't know if POW is on there.
8 PARTICIPANT: POW.
9 MS. WALKER: Okay.
10 PARTICIPANT: It's supposed to be.
11 MS. WALKER: So we can pull that from
12 the HIC too. If the HIC will give it to us, we
13 can find out.
14 Okay, I'm not the surest face, but
15 come on now, give back the old card, get the
16 right card.
17 (Laughter)
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, you know,
19 they said they were going to send us the new ones
20 and they never did, so I haven't bothered with
21 this.
22 MS. STURDIVANT: Yes, they can't count
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1--
2 MS. WALKER: They never sent you one?
3Did you apply for one? We got to work on, how
4long are you going to be here?
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I leave Friday.
6I'll be here today and tomorrow.
7 MS. WALKER: All right, let's see what
8we can do.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Or I'll just go to
10 the VA in San Antonio when I get home.
11 MS. WALKER: Okay.
12 MEMBER SORTILLO: It doesn't mean
13 anything, but we have it on the card.
14 MS. WALKER: Okay. All right. Yes,
15 sir.
16 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I just wanted to
17 address one statement you made about working with
18 somebody that has been working for 50 years to
19 get identified as the POW, and that person had
20 been captive, captive for 24 hours and rescued
21 and returned or whatever.
22 So the DoD rule or regulation or
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1whatever the definition of a POW, the last time I
2checked, was somebody who had been held captive
3for more than three days. And so if, right or
4wrong, if they had been held captive for less
5than three days, they are not identified, by
6regulation, as a POW.
7 MS. STURDIVANT: Interesting.
8 MEMBER MILLIGAN: And I don't know
9what you're told in your FPOW training, but I
10 would think that that definition would be briefed
11 to everybody.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Leslie Williams
13 speaking. So VA goes off of DoD's definition and
14 POW status. For POW status.
15 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes. And you knew
16 that three day rule.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
18 MEMBER MILLIGAN: So, if you've gotten
19 that person identified as a POW, for less than
20 three days of captivity, then that's --
21 (Simultaneously speaking)
22 MS. WALKER: We'll double check on
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1that.
2 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I mean, to me three
3days is arbitrary. I don't know why they picked
4three days. What's the difference between one
5day, three days, three weeks, three months, I
6don't know.
7 MEMBER SORTILLO: It used to be a lot
8longer --
9 MS. WALKER: A lot longer.
10 MEMBER SORTILLO: -- before World War
11 II and Korea.
12 MS. STURDIVANT: Well, thank you for
13 that information. We just received it from him
14 so I can follow it with him and also DoD who
15 update --
16 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I mean, it's not
17 just you that's dealing with this, I mean, I sit
18 on a POW panel at Audie Murphy and this issue
19 comes up during --
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, I was on a POW
21 committee in San Bernardino and every year they
22 had a recommendation they attend. I was always
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1there so was recognized by theater and war.
2 And one year it was Vietnam and I
3stood up and one other guy stood up, and I didn't
4recognize him, he was kind in the back of the
5room, went up and talked to him, got his name and
6he was a fraud.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: A total fraud. And
9we put him into, what's that, our junk yard dog?
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Mike McGrath.
11 PARTICIPANT: Mike McGrath.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Mike McGrath who
13 exposed him. But this guy was a child abuser.
14 He was on the sex abuse list. He was awful. So
15 the hospital got him off the roles as a former
16 POW in San Bernardino.
17 But we've had that problem over the
18 years and the VA has had to work on it. And
19 we've had to help offer some counseling advice
20 and make sure that the list, the DoD list was
21 available.
22 And then Mike McGrath, who is our
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1historian for the Vietnam Era POWs, keeps a
2complete list of those who are still alive and
3those who have died. All of our mailing
4addresses that he has access to because not
5everybody keeps that database up either.
6 And so it's a challenge. It's a
7horrible challenge for you because it's, it's
8because of the way people have moved around in
9this county and changed. Particularly email
10 addresses.
11 And then you can't locate somebody
12 easily if they don't want to be found. And you
13 can try it through the IRS, but they won't tell
14 you if they found them.
15 You can send a letter to somebody if
16 it's filing income tax reports, and the IRS may
17 or may not forward that letter, but they won't
18 tell you if they did. And so unless that person
19 gets back in touch with you, you won't know if
20 you've been successful.
21 I did that once back in '92 and
22 couldn't find one guy. Who has been found since
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1then.
2 MS. WALKER: So we'll work on our
3database.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Good luck.
5 MS. WALKER: I will provide that to
6you as a takeaway from here. And my thought is
7that if we get, even if we just get one person to
8come in and get his data and then we'll be a
9little more successful than we were before. So
10 we'll work on that.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Exactly.
12 MS. WALKER: And we got some work to
13 do but I'm committed and I will continue to work
14 on that so she gets what she needs.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I can send Mike
16 McGrath a request, if he can send you his
17 database to knockout.
18 MS. WALKER: Okay. That would be
19 fine.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And that way, if he
21 says that's not going to be permissible then --
22 MS. WALKER: And if he can send it in,
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1if he has encryption, I get encryption.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
3 MS. WALKER: Not on my text though.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right, we can
5do that.
6 MS. WALKER: So I have another
7assignment for Bob Certain, just want you all to
8know that.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You're good, thank
10 you. Thank you for you work. All right, we're
11 going to take a short break.
12 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
13 went off the record at 10:34 a.m. and resumed at
14 11:05 a.m.)
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Just by way of
16 information, our plan right now is when we break
17 for lunch, we'll go in then, and we've got a
18 stool now, right?
19 For those of us with eating needs or
20 other issues, go to Houston's restaurant. Big
21 menu, lots of seating, and so we won't be all at
22 one table, but it's only about five miles away.
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1 And we've got two hours between break
2time and return time, so it's enough time to get
3there, have a nice meal and get back, get through
4security and all that sort of stuff.
5 MS. CRENSHAW: We can call Houston's
6and let them know we're going to be coming and
7have them reserve space for us.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right, we're going
9to do that and try to get the menus printed out
10 so they can get an idea at the restaurant what to
11 anticipate in the way of orders.
12 And we can kind of speed it along that
13 way.
14 All right, it is now 11:00 a.m. Dr.
15 Ambardekar, who I was just visiting with, is next
16 up. And she is the rater, right?
17 DR. AMBARDEKAR: No, I'm the
18 Compensation --
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You're
20 compensation, yes, that's what I meant.
21 DR. AMBARDEKAR: -- Examiner. So, I
22 want to thank the Committee for giving me the
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1opportunity to come here and present.
2 It's truly an honor to be in this role
3and to help veterans, a unique group of veterans,
4who have sacrificed so much.
5 I've been with C&P for several years
6and my role is examining. I'm a DEMO-certified
7FPOW Examiner.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That records what
9you say for our records.
10 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Okay, and then how do
11 I change this?
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You nod to
13 somebody.
14 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Okay, all right. So,
15 in 1981, Congress passed the Former Prisoners of
16 War Benefit Act.
17 It established an advisory Committee,
18 mandated medical and dental care.
19 Certain diagnoses were established as
20 presumptives, and then subsequent laws and
21 studies and policies have added additional
22 diagnoses to the list of presumptive conditions.
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1Next.
2 So, disability compensation for FPOW
3veterans, these veterans are eligible for VA
4service-connected disability compensation. They
5have the same criteria as other veterans.
6 In addition, though, they're also
7eligible for FPOW presumptive conditions and I'll
8talk about those in a few minutes.
9 And then also special monthly
10 compensation, which is paid in addition to the
11 basic disability compensation to a veteran who
12 incurred loss of use of a specific organ or
13 extremity as a result of service.
14 And then higher levels of SMC is,
15 therefore, housebound veterans are the ones who
16 need aid and attendance.
17 Next slide. So, what's the basis for
18 the presumptive conditions that are established?
19 Studies have shown that physical
20 hardships and psychological stress that's endured
21 by POWs have lifelong effects on their health,
22 their social adjustment and vocational
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1adjustment.
2 Often times, the military or the
3service records do not document these conditions.
4They don't cover the periods of captivity and so
5certain conditions are presumed to be related to
6time in captivity.
7 Presumptive conditions are based on
8studies of long-term effects of captivity,
9deprivation, trauma, and cold injury on former
10 POWs.
11 Next. So, these are the presumptive
12 conditions that are regardless of the length of
13 captivity; osteoporosis, if the POW has PTSD.
14 So, studies have shown that veterans
15 who have PTSD have had low bone density and so if
16 the captivity was regardless of the length, some
17 of the criteria that are established for
18 captivity 30 days or more.
19 In this case, osteoporosis is
20 associated with PTSD, then that can get service-
21 connected even if the veteran was in captivity
22 less than 30 days.
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1 Then, the mental health disorders and
2neuropsychiatric disorders including psychosis,
3dysthymic disorder, any of the anxiety states,
4PTSD, all of these, and this is regardless of the
5length of captivity.
6 Cold injury, post-traumatic
7osteoarthritis, stroke and its complications, and
8heart disease.
9 And this is atherosclerotic heart
10 disease and hypertensive vascular disease, and
11 the associated complications.
12 Next slide. These are the
13 presumptives for captivity periods of 30 days or
14 longer, and again, you see osteoporosis.
15 And if there were 30 days or longer in
16 captivity, then osteoporosis is a presumptive
17 regardless of whether the veteran has PTSD.
18 Nutritional deficiencies are covered,
19 beriberi, which is thiamine deficiency, pellagra,
20 which is niacin deficiency.
21 Any vitamin deficiencies are included,
22 and there's a nutritional DBQ that's completed
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1for that. Malnutrition, including optic atrophy,
2is also covered.
3 There have been studies -- basically,
4with optic atrophy, vitamin deficiencies can be
5one of the causes of optic atrophy.
6 Helminthiasis, peripheral neuropathy,
7except when directly related to an infectious
8disease. And this would exclude diabetes or
9other conditions that can also contribute.
10 Digestive disorders including peptic
11 ulcer disease, we know that peptic ulcer disease,
12 whether it's gastric or duodenal, a majority are
13 associated with H. pylori.
14 And so peptic ulcer disease is
15 covered, chronic dysentery irritable bowel
16 syndrome, and cirrhosis of the liver.
17 These are the exam requests that
18 Atlanta received.
19 This covers a span of ten years,
20 starting in 2007 to this year, and basically,
21 just shows the limited number of examinations
22 received.
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1 Next slide. So, the process, when a
2veteran files a claim, if VBA decides to go ahead
3and rate, and they have sufficient evidence to
4rate, then we don't give the request.
5 But if an examination is requested, an
6exam request, it's the 2507, we receive that from
7the regional office, and Dr. Cullins, who's our
8Chief of the Compensation Clinic triages all
9exams that come in.
10 When the examinations are scheduled
11 based on this triage, the sub-specialty
12 examinations, which are the opto, audiology, and
13 mental health, are scheduled and have to be
14 completed by those specialists.
15 The general protocol examination and
16 any other associated DBQs are completed;
17 generally, I complete those. And then exams are
18 released and completed for VBA ratings.
19 So, the role of the C&P Examiner, this
20 is the DEMO-certified C&P Examiner, completion of
21 required educational training, I had the
22 opportunity to participate in the training last
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1year that was online, and then attend one of the
2trainings a few years ago.
3 Collaboration with VBA Coordinators
4and the FPOW Advocate throughout the exam process
5as well as collaboration with the veteran's
6family.
7 Comprehensive medical records review;
8completing the FPOW protocol exam addressing all
9claimed conditions as well as evaluating for the
10 presumptives, and prioritizing and expeditiously
11 processing these exams.
12 The FPOW protocol exam, ideally, this
13 should be completed as an in-person exam, but
14 just recently, I had a case where the veteran was
15 92, multiple medical problems, lived two hours
16 away from the facility, had recently sustained a
17 fall, sustained fractures, unable to travel.
18 So, there were sufficient records
19 available where I was able to complete the exam
20 as an ACE, and I'll present that case in a little
21 bit.
22 The exam should document comprehensive
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1medical history during veteran's time in the
2service, including history during the time he or
3she was a POW and any history since discharge.
4 A general medical exam is completed.
5Additional DBQs are completed, which provide a
6detailed history and exam findings related to the
7conditions claimed, and addressing any additional
8presumptives that are applicable.
9 Comprehensive review of medical
10 records is important and this is done in addition
11 to the medical history and the exam, and any
12 appropriate diagnostic testing is completed as
13 required.
14 Next slide. So, the challenges that
15 we've had, and this is certainly for the FPOW,
16 but also for some of other veterans who are
17 older, there are challenges that present for us
18 in C&P.
19 Reach of the veterans, certainly for
20 the FPOW, distance from C&P facility, multiple
21 exams and test coordination, medical conditions
22 that impact travel, limitations that are there in
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1obtaining a medical history from the veteran
2because of cognitive impairments.
3 And then transportation issues, when
4they don't have anyone to drive them or they're
5unable to drive.
6 So, solutions.
7 The ACE exam, ACE stands for
8Acceptable Clinical Evidence, and this can be
9completed with a review of medical records or
10 review of medical records in conjunction with a
11 telephone interview, and that's usually the best
12 method to do it when an in-person exam cannot be
13 done.
14 An in-person exam is obviously ideal,
15 but when there are limitations and the records
16 have the findings that are needed for rating, ACE
17 exams should be strongly considered.
18 Exam video tele-health, mental health
19 is currently doing tele-health exams, and I
20 understand now with telemedicine, tele-health,
21 that multiple CBOCs are equipped with the FedOp.
22 And so if some of these exams can be done as
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1tele-health exams, then that would be helpful.
2 In addition, if a patient is unable to
3go to a CBOC where the tele-health equipment is
4available, I understand that VA-issued iPads are
5given to patients for treatment to be able to
6evaluate them.
7 And this is not for C&P, but whether
8that's something that could be considered for
9compensation exam.
10 When you look at tele-medicine in
11 primary care, I know with appropriate setup, you
12 can examine the heart, the lungs, a neurological
13 exam can be done.
14 If the tele-health presenter who is at
15 the site is a trained person, whether it's an
16 LPN, RN, then, certainly, some of the basic exam
17 components can be done, especially when you look
18 at the presumptives for POWs, the heart disease,
19 the neurological exam, checking reflexes or
20 checking for sensation, or checking cranial
21 nerves.
22 And these can all be done by the
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1provider.
2 And then home visits is an option, or
3alternately, a C&P Examiner can examine the
4patient at a CBOC if that's convenient for the
5veteran.
6 MEMBER SORTILLO: Elliott Sortillo.
7What is a CBOC?
8 DR. AMBARDEKAR: It's a Community-
9Based Outpatient Clinic, so there are multiple
10 clinics that are available throughout, and
11 generally, these are for primary care and mental-
12 health care.
13 The sub-specialty visits, the veterans
14 do have to travel to the main VA facility that
15 would be available.
16 But from my understanding, I think
17 with tele-health or tele-medicine, I think
18 there's room for C&P to have this setup, from
19 what I understand.
20 So, next slide. Considering ACE exams
21 for veterans for travel is an issue.
22 Most DBQs on the list of presumptives
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1can be completed with medical records review and
2a telephone interview, excluding the orthopedic
3exams.
4 Diagnoses such as CVA, heart disease,
5when you look at the list of presumptives or the
6protocol exam for FPOWs, most of those really can
7be addressed through review of records.
8 For heart exam, you need METs, you
9need recent echo, LV function, when you look at
10 CVA, a basic neurological exam.
11 And what I've found, and this is not
12 just for FPOWs, but in general, when these
13 diagnoses exist, such as CVA, there's enough
14 work-up in the records.
15 The patient's already being seen,
16 they've had the CT scans, they've had a
17 documented exam. Same thing with heart disease.
18 Often times, we can use an echo report
19 that's been done, and METs can be estimated
20 without having to put a veteran through
21 additional testing, especially when they have
22 multiple other medical problems.
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1 So, I think even the GI exams or GI
2presumptives, all of those, if we have the
3records, these can be done, which would expedite
4the process and avoid the need for a veteran to
5have to come in or delay their exam process any
6longer.
7 And then consider having the veterans
8complete the required diagnostic testing with
9their medical providers, or at a local CBOC if
10 they're unable to complete testing with the same
11 ACE facility.
12 Some studies are needed for ratings,
13 such as an echo would be required for LV
14 function.
15 And sometimes, if we have an echo from
16 a year or two ago, a year or two past timeframe,
17 then we can still use it if there hasn't been a
18 new cardiac event or something that would have
19 changed the LV function or the criteria that are
20 needed for rating.
21 So, most of the times, I've found that
22 we are able to obtain these records and the exams
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1can be done as ACE.
2 Next slide. So, factors for future
3consideration.
4 Due to high prevalence of mental
5health disorders in the FPOW veterans, consider
6having VBA routinely request mental-health
7screening at the time of the protocol exam
8request.
9 This would allow for in-depth
10 assessment of the mental-health conditions and
11 avoid the need for a second visit.
12 As a general provider, doing a basic
13 screen may not necessarily be sufficient and I
14 feel, this is just my suggestion, that an
15 in-depth assessment, given the high prevalence of
16 mental-health disorders, one-time visits should
17 be considered with a mental-health examiner.
18 And then what happens is if I see the
19 patient and then determine that they need to have
20 a mental-health assessment, then it's an
21 additional it could be a week, two, additional
22 time, second visit, and just further delays in
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1getting the claim processed.
2 Expanding tele-medicine, as I
3mentioned earlier.
4 Next one. Also consider separate ICD
5codes for FPOW-related compensation exams for
6tracking purposes.
7 And I also consider flags for the
8veteran, FPOW veteran, charts, which would allow
9linkage to pertinent clinical reminders, such as
10 mental-health screenings, DEXA for osteoporosis,
11 or any additional studies that might be needed.
12 And I also provide contact for local
13 FPOW advocate.
14 I know that when I was in primary care
15 in the past, if you put a problem such as
16 diabetes on the problem list, because there's an
17 ICD code for that, the clinical reminders that
18 pop up on the CPR screen tell us the provider,
19 that this patient hasn't had their diabetic foot
20 exams, or they haven't had all the required
21 reminders that are needed.
22 So, I don't know if that's something
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1that's feasible, if a separate ICD code could be
2created for the FPOW status.
3 And if that's put on the problem list,
4whether a link, a clinical reminders link, could
5pop up that would say FPOW status to consider all
6the screens that are routinely done, so that
7these veterans need, which would be the specific
8tests, looking at any testing that might be
9needed for presumptives.
10 And then also having the contact
11 easily available for the FPOW Advocate.
12 That way, some veterans are not
13 necessarily aware of the benefits that they have
14 and getting that in place, even as a primary-care
15 provider, if you haven't had the experience or
16 the training, you don't necessarily know
17 everything that the veteran needs.
18 And maybe having a link in the contact
19 for the FPOW Advocate, where the patient can get
20 in touch to see what other benefits are
21 available.
22 So, I think that a flag with linkage
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1might be a useful thing to consider in
2establishing a separate ICD code.
3 Next slide. So, this is a case
4presentation. Recently, this was from this year,
5that we received an exam request for a
692-year-old veteran.
7 He had multiple medical problems,
8lived a couple of hours away, had recently had a
9fall and had multiple fractures, and also
10 advanced dementia, so wasn't able to come in for
11 an appointment.
12 And this is just his brief history.
13 And we were able to take care of this request
14 through ACE.
15 And so Mr. H is a 92-year-old veteran
16 who served in the army from 1944 to 1946 and was
17 a prisoner of war in the European theater. This
18 was in Germany.
19 He sustained right lower-leg gunshot
20 wound by enemy of rifle fire and was captured.
21 He was capture by the enemy, treated on the field
22 with a dressing and a splint, and from what I
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1understand, based on the records, they
2transported him to a nearby building.
3 The records document that he was three
4hours in captivity. Within a few hours, the
5enemy retreated and American troops had come in
6and transported this patient to an evacuation
7hospital.
8 And from there, he was subsequently
9sent to another hospital and had surgery.
10 The reported physical examination from
11 1945, which is in his records, noted under
12 medical history, the veteran being a prisoner of
13 war for three hours in April in 1945, and
14 documents a severe perforated wound involving the
15 right leg.
16 Next slide. The X-ray reports from
17 May 1945 noted fracture of the lower third of the
18 right tibia, and severe MFBs in the soft tissue.
19 Subsequently, after he got out of the
20 service, Post-Service Orthopedic Compensation
21 examined from 1947, so this was about a year
22 after he got out.
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1 The noted diagnoses of the gunshot
2wound with the right lower leg fracture of the
3tibia, traumatic arthritis of the right ankle,
4and superficial shrapnel wound in the right
5cervical region, for which the veteran did
6receive service connection, and this was direct
7service connection.
8 Next slide. Social histories,
9Honorable discharge from the Army, he also
10 received Purple Heart. The veteran was employed
11 as an electrician and retired many years ago.
12 He's currently 92.
13 He was born and raised in Georgia,
14 married his first wife and had one daughter, both
15 are deceased.
16 He remarried; with the current spouse,
17 he's been married for over 20 years. And the
18 couple currently resides in an assisted-living
19 facility.
20 A claim was filed with VBA just a few
21 months ago, and the claim conditions were
22 dementia, A. fib, CHF, glaucoma, hypothyroidism,
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1stroke, and hearing loss.
2 And as I mentioned earlier, he was
3unable to travel due to multiple medical
4conditions and was two hours away.
5 The exam reports were completed as ACE
6with medical records review in conjunction with
7the telephone interview. I spoke to his stepson
8and his wife.
9 The veteran was unable to provide any
10 history because of advanced dementia, so all the
11 history was obtained from the family members.
12 And then we relied on medical records to complete
13 the exam.
14 His medical care was through a local
15 family physician and I think he lived in Royston,
16 Georgia.
17 He had a local physician who took care
18 of his general medical needs, and he had to
19 travel to Athens, which was approximately 30
20 miles from where he lived, for any sub-specialty
21 care.
22 Past medical history, history of the
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1gunshot wound, advanced dementia, the records
2documented Alzheimer's, A. fib, CHF,
3hypothyroidism, glaucoma and cataracts.
4 The pelvic and sacral fractures, those
5were after a fall. B12 and vitamin D deficiency,
6history of TIAs and CVA, BPH, and recurring
7urinary tract infections.
8 Next slide. He was on multiple
9medications, as can be seen here.
10 Next slide. Pertinent findings in the
11 records, advanced dementia was noted throughout,
12 gait instability, A. fib, findings consistent
13 with A. fib, CHF, CVA, history of TIA, CVA with
14 some of the residuals.
15 Vitamin B12 and D deficiency were
16 noted. Results of head CT scans, report of the
17 echo labs, were also available.
18 In fact, he hid the records, from his
19 primary-care provider, that were available.
20 There was an aid and attendance form
21 that was completed by the veteran's medical
22 provider from 2016, and that was available.
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1 Also, his recent hospitalization
2record, after having the fractures and an
3admission for possible heart failure, those
4records were additionally available.
5 So, there were findings from a
6physical exam, some of the studies that were
7there that were all available.
8 And in conjunction with the telephone
9interview, that was enough to complete these
10 exams in ACE.
11 These are the DBQs that were
12 completed, the protocol DBQ, and this is again
13 through the records review.
14 So, there was no physical exam of the
15 veteran that was completed by me, but the
16 physical exam for pertinent DBQ findings were
17 noted by his medical providers and documented on
18 the DBQs.
19 CVA with residual, so heart disease
20 DBQ, the protocol DBQ, CNS DBQ, nutritional
21 deficiency DBQs, were completed because he had
22 claimed hypothyroidism and an endocrine DBQ is
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1completed.
2 Dementia was addressed by mental
3health, and a mental-health examination, which
4was also tele-health, was completed.
5 The eye and audio exams could not be
6completed as the veteran was unable to come in
7for these examinations.
8 And I don't know in the future if
9there are enough records for ophthalmology
10 whether that can also be completed in ACE.
11 I did not see any ophthalmology or
12 audio records that could have been used.
13 Anyway, next slide. So, this was a
14 subsequent rating by VBA. He had already been
15 service-connected I believe at 30 percent for his
16 direct service connection for the leg injuries.
17 Subsequently, 100 percent service
18 connection was granted, and this was recent after
19 these exams.
20 The service connection was granted for
21 CHF, CVA; these are presumptives, and all the
22 associated residual conditions with CVA, special
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1monthly compensation was also there.
2 He required aid and attendance and was
3housebound. Some references that were used.
4 Thank you so much, and I hope that the
5case highlights the need for looking at alternate
6methods of evaluating these patients, especially
7as we're dealing with patients who are older who
8have multiple medical conditions.
9 And it's important to be able to
10 expedite these things and get these taken care of
11 in a timely manner. Thank you very much.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Questions? Thank
13 you, Dr. Ambardekar.
14 MEMBER CORRE: Harry Corre. What do
15 you mean by special compensation in those cases?
16 DR. AMBARDEKAR: So, what they get
17 their additional benefits, from what I
18 understand, and I'm not with VBA, but from what I
19 understand, they're eligible for additional
20 benefits on top of their regular direct service-
21 connected disabilities.
22 Things such as aid and attendance,
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1there's additional payment that's made on top of
2that, if aid and attendance is required or if
3there's loss of use of an organ.
4 And I don't know the specific details;
5that probably is something to be better addressed
6by VBA. But that's my understanding of that.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Another question?
8Yes, Dr. Moore?
9 MEMBER MOORE: Jeff Moore. You
10 mentioned a couple of times that the flagging
11 would be helpful to you.
12 Whether it would be an ICD suffix or
13 something, I don't know, but I assume that would
14 have to be made at Central Office?
15 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Yes.
16 MEMBER MOORE: And it also sounds like
17 the mirror -- the mirror, I shouldn't say that.
18 The existence of a POW status on the
19 card when they come in, that doesn't generate
20 automatically any of these flags that you're
21 talking about?
22 DR. AMBARDEKAR: I don't think so.
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1From what I understand, at least when I was in
2primary care some years ago, and Dr. Price is
3here from geriatrics, but when you've put a
4problem on a problem list, then it opens up
5clinical reminders.
6 So, my thought was if we could put
7FPOW status, if a flag could come up that way,
8the providers who are taking care of him know.
9 And if we could create a separate --
10 I believe you have to have an ICD code.
11 If you can create the code and put
12 this on a problem list when the status comes up,
13 then it could open up all the clinical reminders.
14 And I think those clinical reminders,
15 for example, for diabetes, you have all those
16 foot exams and all of that.
17 So, for FPOW, we could say mental-
18 health screen, DEXA, cardiac. Anything that's
19 presumptive could be properly addressed.
20 So, I think that would be helpful, and
21 also, to have the point of contact for the
22 Advocate.
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1 Because often times in primary care,
2you may not necessarily think about all these
3things or be knowledgeable about this.
4 Because I don't think the general
5primary-care group necessarily knows about these
6conditions.
7 And even for me being a C&P Examiner,
8until I actually attended this training, just
9watching a few -- completing a TMS course really
10 is not sufficient to get in that knowledge of
11 what, you know --
12 MEMBER MOORE: Well, I think the
13 osteopenia and osteoporosis is a good example
14 because there might not be listed a problem.
15 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Absolutely.
16 MEMBER MOORE: And the flag would be
17 generated by repatriation itself, with the POW
18 status, not based on pathological fracture or
19 anything else like that that might be listed as a
20 problem.
21 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Right, in this case,
22 actually, this patient, when I looked at some of
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1his X-rays that were done, he had severe
2osteopenia. And so osteoporosis wasn't on the
3list of his diagnoses.
4 In this case, it wouldn't have been
5applicable because the criteria for 30 days or
6more for just osteoporosis by itself were under
7than that, and he did not have PTSD.
8 But in terms of just even from a
9treatment standpoint, I think it's important if
10 this is something that could be done, and the
11 Committee can suggest or have any input in this,
12 I think it would be very helpful.
13 And I do think that the tele-medicine
14 would be another thing to strongly consider.
15 Because from what I understand, if you have the
16 equipment, you can listen to a patient's heart,
17 you can listen to their lungs.
18 Neurologically, even range of motion,
19 I know I mentioned the orthopedic exams would be
20 excluded, but if you can see the patient and
21 you're looking for shoulder abduction, these are
22 easy things to do, the flexion extension.
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1 MEMBER MOORE: Get up out of a chair?
2 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Yes, so I think that
3even basic gait, all of these things can be
4assessed, even if there's a skin lesion, they can
5zoom in on that, or any other conditions that are
6-- I think that there's definitely a role, not
7just for FPOW veterans but for any of the
8veterans that we see, especially the veterans who
9have multiple comorbidities.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I know this
11 Committee has addressed the flag issue before and
12 part of that, as I recall, was that there were
13 some medical centers who had done it.
14 But not every medical center had the
15 IT availability to do it. So, perhaps we can
16 circle back around and see if that can become a
17 systemwide process.
18 DR. AMBARDEKAR: I think that would be
19 very helpful.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And then the
21 others, as you say, if we go in and see somebody
22 who's not been trained who gets a flag, doesn't
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1recognize it for what it is, that's another issue
2internal to the medical center.
3 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Right, and then at
4least to have the FPOW contact there to say the
5flag comes up, maybe the Advocate can try to get
6the patient situated.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Joseph Milligan?
8 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes, Joe Milligan.
9I sit on a panel, a POW panel, at Audie Murphy
10 and this code for POWs came up there.
11 And they worked it it seemed like
12 forever, probably over a year, and the answer
13 that they received and I don't know if that was
14 an Audie-Murphy-specific issue or if this was
15 centrally from VA, but the answer was, no, you
16 cannot establish an ICD code specific for POW.
17 Then the question was why?
18 And all I'm going to say on that, it
19 was a bureaucratic and illogical answer for why
20 it could not be done.
21 But what they were able to do since
22 the FPOW clinic at Audie Murphy is part of the
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1geriatric clinic, they were able to put a flag, a
2POW flag, under the geriatric clinic.
3 And so that was the work-around, and
4I don't know if that would work everywhere.
5 DR. AMBARDEKAR: The people who
6established the clinical reminders, and I wonder
7if there's a way to link it if you can't do an
8ICD-9 code, I'm sure that with technology, I'm
9sure that these are things that could be done,
10 that there would be some way to address it.
11 If a formalized ICD code can't be
12 done, I'm sure that there's got to be other ways
13 to have the reminders pop up, and again, that
14 would be something to have checked with Dr.
15 Price.
16 DR. PRICE: All we would need to do is
17 get a patient data object set up and it could be
18 done all through one intake.
19 Once that's happening, we have a fall
20 screen, for example, we don't have to have an ICD
21 code.
22 All it is is the assessment has
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1flagged it and it will show up as a reminder. It
2just has to be linked. So, it just is an
3internal patient intake.
4 ICD is international, it's huge.
5 I've actually listened to the
6Electronic Committee trying to propose new ICD
7codes and it took them four years for the ones
8that were -- because it has to go through many
9different organizations.
10 So, this is more expedient. I'm sure
11 that if we found out what other VAs did, we could
12 probably figure it out.
13 DR. AMBARDEKAR: That would be great,
14 and Dr. Price has worked with or had several POWs
15 on the panel, and so from the treatment
16 standpoint, he would be able to address those
17 issues.
18 MEMBER CORRE: In conjunction with
19 what you're saying, I have 560 percent
20 disability. I'm serious.
21 And I'm just wondering if that means
22 that I would be receiving extra compensation?
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1Because at the present time, I just receive 170.
2 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Well, you know, I
3would defer that question to VBA because I'm not
4sure how we simply as Compensation Examiners do
5the exam and address all the components needed
6for rating.
7 But, ultimately, the decisions are made by
8VBA. So, I think there are going to be
9representatives tomorrow so I would defer that.
10 But, yes, I know veterans who are over
11 100 percent and I know with SMC there are
12 additional benefits, but I don't know all of the
13 details of that.
14 So, I'd defer that to the VBA.
15 MEMBER SORTILLO: Elliott Sortillo.
16 Until we get the codes involved and walking in
17 the records, how about just asking what you would
18 be without them?
19 DR. AMBARDEKAR: In the primary-care
20 setting?
21 MEMBER SORTILLO: Well, no, the
22 patient said he wasn't a POW.
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1 DR. AMBARDEKAR: You know, I guess
2when they come in through intake clinics, or
3whether it's nursing or the PC provider, that
4could be easily asked as one of the questions.
5 In fact, during triage, I know that
6certain questions have to be asked, so this is
7something that's built in. I'm sure that that
8could be asked.
9 When I see the patient, they've
10 already been established, their status has
11 already been established.
12 So, I don't question the status
13 because when I get the exam, it's for
14 compensation and everything has already been
15 established.
16 And I was talking to Dr. Moore about
17 even the length of captivity in the handbook that
18 I received from the course; the law that's the
19 definition of POW doesn't have the term -- any
20 specified length of captivity in the definition.
21 And so everyone that comes through our
22 clinic, it's never questioned because the
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1statuses have already been determined, and we've
2had very few numbers.
3 But I think that's simple enough to
4just ask are you --
5 MEMBER SORTILLO: It's certainly a
6question. Before they get viewed?
7 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Yes, because once it
8gets to us, we're really -- VBA is determining
9all of that and when we get the exam revised then
10 it's -- but you're right, I was hearing from a
11 few people that I spoke to about the fraudulent
12 cases, and luckily, I haven't encountered those.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Joe?
14 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Actually, this was
15 discussed earlier this morning.
16 Annette Walker stated that, I heard
17 quickly that, you go by the DoD definition of
18 what is a POW and as far as I know, by
19 regulation, the definition of a POW is more than
20 three days in captivity.
21 Therefore, in that case, the
22 presentation you gave, three hours does not fit
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1that definition. And therefore, the definition
2should not be designated as a POW.
3 This isn't a case of fraud, I mean,
4it's an ongoing issue that we see. But the
5problem is in that person's mind and in the minds
6of the family, he was a POW.
7 DR. AMBARDEKAR: And the medical
8records.
9 MEMBER MILLIGAN: He was captured and
10 they don't know the DoD definition. But if
11 you're going by the DoD definition, this case
12 does not fit that.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So, if we can help find
14 the citation, the DoD citation, for the DoD
15 definition, that would help.
16 DR. AMBARDEKAR: I think that would
17 help because the handbook that I received from
18 the course that shows you the definition, it
19 actually didn't specify that.
20 And so as someone who's getting the
21 training, if that's not specified, then I think
22 if that's the definition, then it should be also
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1included in the training so that the providers
2are aware.
3 MS. STURDIVANT: We're going off of
4what DoD told us.
5 The DD-214 is not done by the VA, so
6when it comes to us, we're only following what
7we're advised to do per our project as the
8advocate or as the DoD examiner.
9 So, if the DoD has identified them as
10 a POW, we are not exactly in the force taught to
11 object that, we're advised to go with it.
12 So, it's a DoD issue and they're the
13 one to determine whether it's POW.
14 DR. AMBARDEKAR: And then the training
15 handouts that are passed on, it really should be
16 very well defined because that wouldn't be
17 something -- I have the handout and it's not
18 specified in there. So, it would be helpful for
19 the providers to have that.
20 MEMBER QUARLES: I'm curious --
21 Shirley Quarles. I can really appreciate you
22 saying the value of your training that you
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1received.
2 Do you know how many other positions
3in VA Peter went through that training?
4 DR. AMBARDEKAR: As far as I know, I'm
5not aware of another physician. At least the two
6times that I went through it last year, it was
7just an online training.
8 So, if there were additional people,
9I don't know, but from a compensation standpoint,
10 I'm not aware.
11 Dr. Cullins may know if anybody else
12 had done. What's that?
13 MS. STURDIVANT: -- training then you
14 were on the team. You're a C&P Examiner, you're
15 an advocate. If you're a physician or nurse on
16 the team. Other than that, you are not required
17 or allowed to attend face to face training or
18 even a form of the online training. So, no time
19 is carved out for you to attend it or participate
20 in it.
21 DR. POLLACK: I just want to correct
22 that. You're allowed to, but you're not required
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1to.
2 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Okay, so what
3training would be available for the treating
4providers? Dr. Price is interested and he has
5experience.
6 So, to be designated as a treating
7provider, what kind of training --
8 DR. POLLACK: Same training.
9 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Same training? Are
10 there any forces now that are available this year
11 or next year?
12 DR. POLLACK: The training is online
13 on TMS.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thanks, Stacey.
15 Any other questions? Yes, Dr. Moore?
16 MEMBER MOORE: Jeff Moore. The
17 document that you were mentioning is the document
18 that I believe Charlie Stenger used to put out
19 periodically. And I think the one that we were
20 looking at was 2008.
21 The DoD number listed on there for
22 Vietnam is one off but the DoD number for Desert
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1Storm and Iraqi Freedom, those are correct.
2 But that document, although those
3numbers are correct, for those errors, it doesn't
4specifically say on that document that he
5produced one way or the other what the DoD
6definition was.
7 It was just not mentioned. It just
8says here are the DoD numbers. And I don't think
9that that document is being updated any longer.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's Dr. Stenger?
11 MEMBER MOORE: Right, no one picked
12 that up after his passing.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Anything else?
14 We're about ready to break for lunch. We've got
15 a band, we're all going together. You're
16 responsible for your own bill.
17 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you.
19 (Applause.)
20 Anything else before we break for
21 lunch that you need to bring up? Okay, so you've
22 got your menus that you've been perusing.
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1 You can make up your mind what you're
2going to order once we get there, and we'll
3gather downstairs as soon as we can get there.
4 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
5 went off the record at 11:52 a.m. and
6 resumed at 2:29 p.m.)
7 Okay, Stacey, you're on.
8 DR. POLLACK: Hi, everyone, I am going
9to be presenting on the FPOW care and benefits
10 training and where we are at with that. If you
11 could go to the first slide?
12 So, in FY15, so about two years ago,
13 we had received guidance to reduce the number of
14 face-to-face and mandatory trainings within VA.
15 And so about two years ago, we created
16 the first series of online FPOW training. This
17 past year, we updated the training based on
18 feedback that we had received from the previous
19 FY15 and FY16 training.
20 And the feedback that we have received
21 is people really wanted the training to be more
22 interactive, so we tried to -- and each year we
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1have done the training, we have tried to make it
2as interactive as possible.
3 And the other feedback that we had
4received is people were questioning why this was
5important, why was it important that we were
6doing this training.
7 So, we tried to give the training more
8context, and the way that we attempted to do this
9was by talking to people who had attended the
10 face to face training that used to happen.
11 And people said one of the things that
12 they really liked about that training was that
13 the training started off with some former
14 prisoners of war telling their stories and
15 telling why the training was important and why it
16 was important that people be in the training.
17 So, obviously, we're not able to
18 capture that in the same way one would be able to
19 capture it in a face to face training with a
20 large panel with individuals.
21 But we did create an introductory
22 training video that Dr. McNish, who everybody in
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1this room knows, was willing to tape for us the
2last time when he was in D.C.
3 And we're going to play it now just so
4you all can see it. Is that something you're all
5interested in seeing? It's about five minutes.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Sure.
7 DR. POLLACK: Okay.
8 (Video plays.)
9 DR. McNISH: Hello, my name is Tom
10 McNish. I am the Chairman of the Veterans
11 Advisory Committee on Former Prisoners of War.
12 I have been in my job for quite a
13 while, and let me give you a little background of
14 how I got here.
15 In 1964, I graduated from the Air
16 Force academy, went straight from there to pilot
17 training, and from pilot training directly to
18 Southeast Asia.
19 On September 4th of 1966, I was flying
20 a combat mission over North Vietnam, near Hanoi,
21 and I was shot down and captured almost
22 immediately.
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1 From that time, I spent six and a half
2years in a Vietnamese prison, and was released
3back to the United States in March of 1973.
4 The purpose of my talking to you today
5is to give you a better understanding of what the
6Advisory Committee is, how it came to be, what
7issues we deal with and have dealt with in the
8past, hopefully, to give you a better
9understanding of why you are sitting in this
10 seminar today, and give you some motivation to
11 be able to learn what you used today to improve
12 the care and benefits for POWs, ex-POWs, and
13 their families.
14 To continue with the discussion about
15 the VA Advisory Committee on Former Prisoners of
16 War, it was created at the same time as the
17 presumptives for former prisoners of war were
18 created, or at least the initial group of them.
19 Many of you already know from having worked with
20 former prisoners of war.
21 That was in 1981 when Public Law 97-37
22 came into being, and as the Committee was formed
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1within the next couple of years, they said we
2realized that there was an apathy amongst the VA
3personnel as to how to deal with POWs.
4 They had a lot of other things on
5their plate and here's this group of POWs that
6now had a Committee that speaking for them.
7 In trying to address that in 1990,
8there was a film, a documentary film, created, a
9training film, which was called Priority POW.
10 It's still in the VA Library.
11 It outlines why this group of former
12 military people deserve to be considered in a
13 slightly different way than other veterans in
14 that, for one thing, there were no medical
15 records kept during the prison time.
16 So, a lot of things have to be
17 considered as presumptives.
18 I know this is redundant for you but
19 let me just emphasize it, presumptive means that
20 the diagnosis exists and the prison experience
21 exists.
22 And thereby, it is considered
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1combat-related or presumed combat-related on that
2basis.
3 In 1995, that was about the time that
4I became involved with the Committee. We looked
5at it and found that it wasn't really so many an
6apathy amongst the VA personnel.
7 There was a lack of knowledge about
8the POW experience and a lack of how to elicit
9information from POWs about their experiences so
10 that it can be used best to develop ways to give
11 them the consideration, the care, and the
12 benefits to which they were entitled.
13 Now, as I mentioned earlier, this
14 population is very rapidly decreasing. There
15 were over 140,000 POWs at one time eligible for
16 VA care. Now, it's down to well less than ten
17 percent.
18 So, it is critical that you, the VA
19 staff, supporting them solidly understand certain
20 key requirements, and that is why we've put
21 together this seminar on the web, hopefully, to
22 share that importance with you and give you an
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1opportunity to provide us feedback.
2 First of all, you must know and
3understand the health problems that may result
4from the POW experience.
5 And when I say the POW experience,
6that in itself is not a really good phrase,
7because there is no single POW experience.
8That's one of the things that I hope you carry
9away from here.
10 You must understand that different
11 wars, different years, even different camps
12 within the same theater, may produce different
13 health risks to the population that you are
14 encountering.
15 You must realize that each POW is
16 different, and through that realization, you must
17 incorporate the understanding that most POWs have
18 one similar trait, that is that they don't
19 believe that they deserve special care, that they
20 will minimize any complaints that they might
21 have, and they won't even share the ones that
22 they minimize with you until you have fully
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1gained their confidence.
2 And I remember, all of us were in
3situations where we were interacting with people
4that we did not want to share information.
5 And some of us have carried that, most
6of us have carried that, over into our future
7lives.
8 So, realize that one of the big things
9you have to do first when you're dealing with a
10 former prisoner of war is to share with them,
11 share experiences with them, share your
12 understanding of their experiences and the level
13 you have, and express interest, once you gain
14 their confidence that you're a friend and not an
15 enemy, you will be able to get a tremendous
16 amount more of information from them.
17 You must know why the presumptives
18 exist, and we already talked about that a little
19 bit.
20 There were no medical records in
21 prison and so you can't back in the medical
22 records to make sure that what this guy is
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1telling you really happened.
2 You need to know what the presumptives
3are, and how, as I've alluded to some before, to
4elicit the supporting information from the
5prisoner, former prisoner of war, and from each
6of them in a way that will help you to better
7develop their case in a way that will best help
8them.
9 We need you to learn from this seminar
10 how to work together as a team, the medical staff
11 with the rating staff, to ensure that all POWs
12 receive the support and benefits that they are
13 entitled to.
14 Once again, it can never be said too
15 many times, but it is a fact that POW veteran
16 population is rapidly decreasing and rapidly
17 aging. Most of us are in the geriatric clinic
18 these days.
19 So, please, accept this sense of
20 urgency to make sure that all the POWs, ex-POWs,
21 are found and that they are cared for and receive
22 the benefits to which they're entitled.
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1 And don't forget, on the front of the
2VA building, it says to care for him who shall
3have war in the battle and his widow.
4 The more rapidly you accomplish
5getting the maximum possible benefits to the
6former POW, the greater the probability that his
7widow will be cared for or will receive DIC, and
8will get that to which she also is entitled.
9 As the bottom line, let me emphasize
10 that in my mind, the fact that you are here and
11 participating in this training program should
12 mean that you are committed to improving the care
13 and benefits for ex-POW veterans.
14 And trusting that you all will
15 accomplish those objectives of being educators
16 and cheerleaders, and working yourselves to
17 improve the healthcare and benefits for former
18 prisoners of war, I on behalf of all former
19 prisoner of war veterans and our families would
20 like to thank you for the work that you do, for
21 the healthcare that you provide and for all that
22 you do to make sure that former prisoners of wars
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1and their families are cared for by the Veterans
2Administration.
3 Thank you.
4 DR. POLLACK: So, I'm not sure what
5you all thought of that, but I think it really,
6from the feedback that we received from the
7field, really added a lot to the training in
8terms of having Dr. McNish's live voice to really
9talk about what this training means and why it's
10 important.
11 Other things that we have done besides
12 adding this video is this year we really did a
13 lot more -- I'm not sure how familiar everybody
14 is with Adobe Connect, but really using the chat
15 box to try and make sure that people working are
16 active in a chat box in the online training, and
17 really doing some interactive polls, where we did
18 some case studies during the training and people
19 were asked questions.
20 And we had these interactive polls
21 where people could participate and sort of give
22 their opinions of what they would do in a certain
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1situation.
2 Next slide. So, we had three
3different online trainings. There were live, and
4these trainings are on our talent management
5system, TMS, so people can take them when they're
6online.
7 But when they were live, we had 118
8participants approximately for each of the
9trainings, about half and half VBA and VHA.
10 So, we had a good mix of people from
11 the benefit side of the house, as well as the VHA
12 side of the house.
13 The first training was about VBA
14 benefits for FPOWs. The second training was the
15 role of the FPOW coordinator and mental-health
16 and former prisoners of war.
17 And the third training was VBA-VHA
18 collaboration, and I know I talked last time I
19 was here, as some of you all knew, a training
20 video of Mr. Champaign, who was a Korean War
21 FPOW, and his experiences.
22 Next slide.
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1 So, one of the things that we, as a
2faculty, really are committed to doing is making
3sure that we look at the feedback that we receive
4from individuals who take the training to try and
5incorporate the feedback that we get.
6 And make sure that we're meeting
7people's training needs and to enhance the
8training based on that feedback.
9 And to figure out if there's things
10 that are missing how do we add those things and
11 how do we make the training as good as it can
12 get?
13 So, basically, the numbers here are
14 about 80 percent in terms of overall, I was
15 satisfied with this learning activity, the
16 learning, knowledge, and skills was appropriate
17 to my professional needs, I'll be able to apply
18 the knowledge to improve my job performance, and
19 the training was effective for learning.
20 And when I talked to the folks from
21 our Education Department, they said these numbers
22 are very comparable to what they get with most
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1online trainings in terms of this is very similar
2to the numbers, and also very similar to numbers
3they get at live face-to-face trainings as well,
4in terms of there's always people who benefit.
5 But the fact that they said these
6numbers were sort of comparable was interesting
7in terms of -- and it's not statistically
8significant, just given the small N, but training
9one, which is more didactic about benefits.
10 Training two is more didactic about
11 the role of the FPOW Advocate and about mental
12 health.
13 Training three, where it says the
14 training environment was effective for learning,
15 that number goes down a little bit to 76 percent.
16 And that's the training where it's
17 really interactive between VBA and VHA, and I'm
18 going to talk a little bit about what we're
19 hoping to do in the future potentially to try and
20 address that.
21 So, training three, again, this is the
22 interactive training between VBA and VHA, and
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1people were asked these questions in terms of
2describe challenges faced by FPOWs individually
3and organizationally, how well are you able to do
4that, how well are you able to summarize ideas
5for collaboration between VHA and the VA Regional
6Office, and identify successes that have been
7achieved in working with POWs.
8 So, these numbers are pretty good
9actually. We've been talking to the education
10 people in terms of what you would want in terms
11 of outcome data.
12 Next slide. So, comments from the
13 training, and I'm not going to read through all
14 of these because everybody has the slides and is
15 able to read them, but I just want to highlight
16 some of these.
17 So, one of the questions that
18 everybody got asked is if you feel you'll be
19 successful in applying this learning, please
20 provide a few specific examples of how you will
21 apply it.
22 So, things like better able to be
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1attentive to POWs, very well done presentation
2means the production video was the most
3meaningful, better C&P exams, I'm a new FPOW
4Advocate at my VA and I need all this info.
5 I will be able to make sure that when
6evaluating that POW I consider all basis for
7service connection, how to learn this.
8 I work on the VHA side of the house so
9the training for the VBA side I will likely not
10 use, however, it's good to know because I can
11 give my FPOWs information they may not have had.
12 What this sort of says to me is people
13 are getting something out of the training.
14 They're actually learning something and they're
15 learning what we need them to be learning.
16 Next slide. Again, the same thing.
17 If you'll be successful in applying
18 this learning, please provide a few specific
19 examples of how you'll apply it when talking with
20 surviving spouses about DIC benefits,
21 understanding that records may not exist.
22 I've been the FPOW coordinator for a
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1while so there wasn't much info in the course
2that was new to me; I'm going to come back to
3that also.
4 My frame of mind, I'm sympathetic and
5open-minded with all the claims I rate, but I see
6these claims as a little different given the
7experience these vets underwent.
8 Next slide. This is something I think
9someone else is going to talk about. We could
10 really use a formal outreach project for the
11 FPOWs.
12 I've heard you all talk about that.
13 I would like to know how to reach out
14 to FPOWs that are still living to make sure they
15 are receiving all the benefits they deserve.
16 This is, again, that same comment of
17 how do we reach people who are not currently in
18 the VA system?
19 And I would like to have more face-to-
20 face interaction with other FPOWs team members at
21 my site.
22 Again, that's a real simple one for
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1people to try and set up local meetings with the
2Members of the care and benefits teams.
3 For training two, and again, this was
4the training about the role of the FPOW Advocate
5and the mental-health training, again, people
6were asked the same question in terms of how they
7will apply what they learned in the training.
8 And again, people were saying things,
9in interfacing empathically with the FPOWs, FPOWs
10 are not self-revealing, and learning about
11 mental-health effects we know helps to know what
12 may be going on in the background of their minds
13 when we meet.
14 We'll ensure that the FPOW Advocate is
15 on the facility website.
16 Working with the FPOW population will
17 be new for me but I feel like the information was
18 presented in a manner that will help ease the
19 transition.
20 This information will make me more
21 effective when attending group support sessions
22 with FPOW in my clinic. Next slide.
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1 Better understanding how VBA and BHA
2can work together, empathy.
3 And what I didn't put on here is how
4many of the comments, because I didn't put every
5comment, we have hundreds of comments for each
6sort of question, the one thing that stood out to
7me when I reviewed all the comments was the word
8empathy kept coming up over and over again in
9terms of what people learned from the training
10 and what they would take away was really how to
11 be more empathic. And really, how to have that
12 empathy.
13 The other thing that really came up is
14 what was most useful for you seeing both sides of
15 the house, FPOWs interviews to put things in
16 perspective, clinical material was all familiar
17 but review was appropriate, reminding me of the
18 physical sequelae of being an FPOW and how this
19 affects the person's overall health.
20 Next slide.
21 This first comment I put up here just
22 because it was sort of, again, that same thing
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1about outreach, but as we do not have many active
2POW claimants at this time, admittedly, I do
3wonder if I will have the opportunity to be in a
4position to apply these skills.
5 A good portion of our living FPOWs are
6already receiving a total disability award and
7may not feel inclined to pursue additional
8compensation benefits.
9 I will encourage our primary
10 coordinator, who is a member of our public
11 contact team to consider some outreach efforts to
12 see if there's any additional benefits they would
13 be interested in learning about more.
14 And there were also a lot of comments
15 that were made like that that the population was
16 dwindling, that people used to have very active
17 POW support groups, but that those support groups
18 sort of have dwindled in number as,
19 unfortunately, many individuals are getting older
20 and may be dying.
21 We want more learning sessions like
22 this in the future; using Skype impacted my other
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1duties very little as I did not need to travel.
2 The interaction of the portion of the
3session was preserved through the informal type
4of lecture and the interactive chat line, and
5made me feel connected to FPOW Staff across the
6country.
7 So, I put that there and it's
8interesting because we got an equal number of
9comments from people who say I prefer this being
10 online to people who would say I prefer this to
11 be face to face.
12 And I think it's just people today
13 have different learning styles. There's people
14 who learn better online, there's people who learn
15 better face to face; people have different
16 commitments.
17 But I just wanted to put that up there
18 because I think it's worth mentioning.
19 Next slide. Again, this was from
20 training three, the interactive training, how I'm
21 going to apply it, enhance attentiveness to POW
22 concerns, provide the greatest benefit under the
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1law, identification of a dedicated team.
2 The discussion after the video, I'm so
3glad to hear from others the different level of
4advocating for FPOWs. I learned quite a bit
5about additional benefits that FPOWs may be
6eligible.
7 The training was thought-provoking and
8motivated me to try to reach out more to both
9FPOWs and to fellow Staff to educate them on the
10 FPOW experience and my role as an FPOW Advocate.
11 Next slide. So, where do we go from
12 here? The goal is to, one, make sure that the
13 trainings are on the TMS system, which they are,
14 so that employees can participate in them at any
15 time.
16 So, if you get a new member of the
17 care and benefits team at your site, someone
18 doesn't have to wait for a specific time to go
19 online and take the trainings.
20 Now, the advantage of that is people
21 get to hear trainings about the presumptives,
22 they get to see Dr. McNish in the video, they get
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1to see the slides and hear everything about
2mental health and the role of the FPOW Advocate.
3Obviously, though, if you're taking a training
4online, it's not interactive.
5 So, that piece of it is there, so we
6still want to encourage people to attend the
7trainings when we do them sort of live online.
8 But we want to make sure that people
9have access to the training, because given the
10 rapidly-declining FPOW population, we don't want
11 people to have to wait another year to get
12 trained if we have training that people can take
13 right now.
14 To continue to figure out how to make
15 those trainings more interactive, we've received
16 feedback that this training is really good but
17 maybe we should figure out a way to separate it
18 out as original training for people who have not
19 yet been trained, versus an updated training for
20 people who have already taken the training and
21 maybe just sort of needs a refresher course.
22 So, to look into whether that's an
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1option for exploring; whether to have quarterly
2meetings between VHA and VBA in terms of Staff
3who work with the FPOW population.
4 One of the pieces of the feedback that
5we used to hear when there was the face-to-face
6conference is that people would have preferred
7the interactive sessions between VBA and VHA to
8be with people they are actually working with.
9 So, let's use Atlanta as an example,
10 to have somebody from the Atlanta Medical Center
11 being able to work with somebody from the Atlanta
12 Regional Office.
13 So, we've talked about whether or not
14 we would want to do certain regional sort of
15 trainings, in terms of let's say the Southeast
16 VBA Regional Offices and the Southeast Medical
17 Centers.
18 Some of this is sort of complicated,
19 though, by the fact that VBA now has this
20 national work queue and claims are being
21 processed sort of at a variety of different
22 places, not all in the local, regional office.
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1 So, we're still trying to figure out
2what the best way to do this is.
3 One of the things is VHA requested
4that each VHA have contact information for each
5VBA representative at the Regional Office, so we
6are in the process of getting that to get that
7out to them.
8 Next slide. One of the suggestions
9that was made was utilizing additional FPOW
10 videos, maybe having a training video.
11 Like I said, we use the video right
12 now for Mr. Champaign, but maybe adding a couple
13 additional videos, one from each era.
14 And then really, the suggestion was
15 made to talk to the FPOWs to talk to you all and
16 say what are we missing?
17 If this is our opportunity to provide
18 the training online, are there things that are
19 important to put into the training that people
20 are not getting?
21 We talked about this during the break,
22 from someone who's recently taken the training.
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1Are there things that we can do to enhance the
2training, whether it's adding more training
3videos?
4 I personally thought that our
5videographer did a really great job filming that
6video of Dr. McNish. And we can certainly add
7more videos like that, more context, et cetera.
8 So, I would really leave that up to
9you all to ask you all the question. Are there
10 things that we are missing that we really should
11 add?
12 And I think that's the last slide.
13 So, questions or comments? Silence from
14 everyone. I don't know how to take silence.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It's just after
16 lunch, what can I tell you?
17 DR. POLLACK: Huh?
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You got us after we
19 ate.
20 DR. POLLACK: Yeah, that's true. I'm
21 not as much a hall professional, though, I can
22 sit with silence. Leslie?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Leslie Williams.
2 So for the certification, do they have
3to attend the live training sessions in order to
4be certified? Or do they receive it if they go
5from TMS?
6 DR. POLLACK: That's a good question
7and no one has asked that.
8 I think what we would probably say is
9you can take the two that are more didactic in
10 TMS, that the one that's interactive, you really
11 need to be able to do.
12 And it may be that we then continue to
13 offer that training more often live so that
14 people can do that interactive component.
15 There's no reason we can't do that
16 quarterly, and those other two trainings, which
17 are more didactic, we still want to do them live
18 because there's a lot of comments that go through
19 the chat box even during those trainings.
20 I was actually surprised at how much
21 better people have gotten, and I think it has
22 nothing to do with this particular training.
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1 I think it's just the more and more
2familiar people become with using the technology
3of online training and the chat boxes, how much
4more people are interacting in those training
5forms than they did two years ago, three years
6ago, as they become more familiar with it.
7 And I think we, as people who are
8putting on the trainings, become more familiar
9with it too.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
11 MEMBER MOORE: Is there a big turnover
12 among the trained personnel?
13 Does everybody in all facilities in
14 general have four trained people but there's a
15 lot of turnover? Or how does the turnover work?
16 DR. POLLACK: There's not a lot of
17 turnover as much as, I would say, in the FPOW
18 Advocate role. How long, Rhonda, not to put you
19 on the spot, have you been the FPOW Advocate?
20 MS. STURDIVANT: All seven years.
21 DR. POLLACK: Seven years.
22 I think most people who are serving as
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1the FPOW Advocate really like that role and feel
2really honored to be able to be in that role and
3to have that role at their facility, and don't
4want to give that up.
5 In terms of the other roles, I don't
6know the answer, but I can say when people change
7members of the team, we get us to update the
8spreadsheet of who's on the team.
9 And it's not that much turnover. I
10 mean, there is turnover, I'm not going to say
11 there's not, but it's not as much.
12 MEMBER QUARLES: Shirley Quarles.
13 Stacey, I'm just curious, in terms of
14 gathering your information from all the
15 coordinators and speaking of various prisoners of
16 war, have you found anything distinguishing
17 differently between female prisoners of war and
18 male prisoners of war in terms of treatment?
19 DR. POLLACK: We have very few female
20 prisoners of war who are getting treatment in the
21 VA.
22 So, I don't have an answer to that but
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1there are not as many. So, I guess my answer
2would be a reluctance to be coming in.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Leslie, did you
4have something?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: I didn't have a
6question, I had a comment to answer your
7question.
8 So, on the VBA side of the house, I
9believe it was at our New Orleans meeting that
10 the recommendation was put forth that our
11 coordinators serve a minimum of three years.
12 And so that was one of the
13 recommendations that was signed off on.
14 I was trying to look in the book to
15 see if I could find an exact number to give it to
16 you, but once it's implemented across VBA, then
17 all those appointed will serve in that position
18 for a minimum of three years, unless they're
19 promoted or leave VA.
20 DR. POLLACK: And I do remember one of
21 the recommendations that your Committee had put
22 forth, that we are in the process of sending a
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1memo out to the field was making sure that we
2have an update list of all of the members of the
3team, of the care and benefits team, and whether
4or not they had participated in training. And we
5are in the process of getting that.
6 I think we have a pretty good list,
7but it will be something that the Medical Center
8Directors have to sort of certify that, yes,
9these are the members of the team at their local
10 site and that they have been trained.
11 DR. AMBARDEKAR: Nayana Ambardekar.
12 Are there any thoughts about having agenda-free
13 general education training for primary-care
14 providers or for geriatric primary care?
15 Because the veterans are spread
16 throughout having one designated treatment
17 provider at a certain location, the patient's not
18 really seeing that provider because they're
19 scattered and --
20 DR. POLLACK: So, at some sites, they
21 do see one provider.
22 I think one of the things that we can
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1certainly do is add to this particular training
2some context for the primary care providers or
3treating providers, other than primary care
4geriatric clinic, wherever they are, sort of
5saying it's still important to understand what
6the presumptives are, whether you're in primary
7care, whether you're in geriatrics, whether
8you're doing C&Ps, and these are the things that
9you need to look for.
10 But that's really good feedback to put
11 some context into this in terms of why it would
12 be important for that treating provider to
13 understand this information as well.
14 So, I'll take that feedback back and
15 as we update things, I think that's really good
16 feedback.
17 Thoughts on the introductory video?
18 Positive, negative? I won't be hurt. I thought
19 they did a really good job and I really did think
20 it was important.
21 And like I said, we really are trying
22 to base things on the feedback that we get. It's
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1sort of a data-driven approach.
2 Let's look at what people are saying
3and how do we meet the needs? So, maybe we will
4think of adding additional training videos.
5 We have Mr. Champaign, maybe someone
6from the Vietnam or World War II era.
7 I wish Shoshana was here, talk to her
8maybe about a training video, in terms of a
9female prisoner of war experience.
10 Well, if anybody has any suggestions,
11 please let me know.
12 Again, we're open to feedback and
13 really trying to -- but like I said, I was really
14 struck by the one word that kept coming up over
15 and over again was empathy.
16 And that, to me, people were getting
17 what they needed to get, that I will have more
18 empathy, that this is important to me.
19 Thank you all for having me.
20 MEMBER MOORE: Joe Milligan. I had
21 one question for you in terms of your training.
22 Do you train your people in terms of
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1consideration of an aging POW population? And
2therefore, the things that are bothering them
3start to bother them more often?
4 And I don't have to look any further
5than myself to see that.
6 You talked about POWs as a group
7minimize what they think is wrong with them, and
8that's the truth to some extent, but some of it
9is just human nature.
10 If something's not bothering you, you
11 don't complain about it.
12 And personally, I've got things that
13 bother me as a result of being a POW that have
14 always bothered me.
15 I've got some pains that I've had ever
16 since the experience and they're not going to go
17 away, but I have other issues.
18 For instance, back pain, as a result
19 of ejecting from a high-speed aircraft, and my
20 back issues flare up about once every ten years
21 whether I need them to or not.
22 DR. POLLACK: I don't think you need
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1them to.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so if you
3question me when my back hurts, I'll be honest
4with you, but in the ten years in between,
5there's nothing bothering me.
6 But now that I'm getting older, it's
7more and more of an issue.
8 So, if you don't keep asking me some
9of these questions every time you see me, you
10 might not see the trends that are going on in my
11 life, and the same with everybody else.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And you're an
13 example of why the spouse needs to go with the
14 former prisoner, because she can answer honestly.
15 All right, thank you, Stacey.
16 (Applause.)
17 We'll take about a five or ten-minute
18 break and we'll be in here at quarter after for
19 Dr. Moore.
20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
21 went off the record at 3:06 p.m. and
22 resumed at 3:18 p.m.)
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1 MEMBER MOORE: Harry's ready and Bob
2says I may start. My name is Jeff Moore.
3 By training and background, I'm a
4clinical neuropsychologist, specialized in
5aviation neuropsychology in I guess include say
6geriatric neuropsychology.
7 I retired from the Navy a little over
820 years ago, and I retired from the Mitchell
9Center at the end of August of this year.
10 For approximately 28 years, I had the
11 honor of taking care of the Yankee Air Pirates,
12 as the North Vietnamese called our folks.
13 The 566 POWs, men, who were
14 repatriated following Operation Desert Storm --
15 I'm sorry, Operation Homecoming. See, that's why
16 he's sitting at the head of the table here.
17 Then there were a few others, bringing
18 the total repatriated from Vietnam to about 662,
19 and those others represented people who actually
20 escaped from the South or they accepted early
21 release or otherwise came home early.
22 It does not include the one person who
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1was court-martialed in Vietnam and who was not
2eligible for care.
3 But for 28 years, again, it was my
4honor to be associated with that program.
5 Leslie asked me to say a few words
6today about what the Mitchell Center is, because
7this Committee has heard a lot about the Mitchell
8Center.
9 And I think it's high time that we
10 told a little bit about what the Mitchell Center
11 is and how it came to be, what it's been over the
12 years.
13 Before I get off into that, I want to
14 address something that's been alluded to earlier
15 day and just a little bit ago.
16 We heard that the local physician is
17 a geriatrician, we heard from the geriatrician in
18 New Orleans as well, and the average age of the
19 Vietnam repatriate is right about 79 now, which
20 all of a sudden, doesn't seem that old to me.
21 But that's the average age.
22 There are many repatriates from
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1Vietnam who wrote personal books about their
2experiences.
3 There's a couple of very, very good
4books summarizing the experience in Vietnam,
5Honor Bound is one of them, and let's see, the
6very very first one, it will come to me.
7 But again, a lot of the repatriates
8wrote books themselves.
9 The Mitchell Center logo indirectly
10 pays homage to some of those books because our
11 logo has an unchained eagle for freedom, and some
12 of the books have titles about being chained,
13 Chained Eagle, a bunch of things like that,
14 Unchained Eagle.
15 What's another name?
16 But anyway, with respect to being a
17 geriatric neuropsychologist, within the past five
18 years, everybody of our age group, I'll put
19 myself in that age group, is concerned about
20 dementia and Alzheimer's Disease.
21 The repatriate poignantly says I've
22 been chained before, I don't want to be chained
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1again.
2 And that's I think something that the
3teams all should be aware of, that there's this
4entity called dementia, called Alzheimer's, that
5kind of blooming out there and none of us look
6forward to that possibility.
7 But the repatriate, I think, has a
8very personal view of that.
9 That said, let me say a little bit
10 about the Mitchell Center. I think that there
11 are three or four real key points about the
12 Mitchell Center.
13 One should be fairly obvious. The
14 most important person in the history of the
15 Mitchell Center is Dr. Mitchell, for whom this
16 Center is named.
17 And it's interesting how he became
18 involved.
19 In 1972, when Operation Homecoming,
20 which occurred in the spring of 1973, when the
21 planning for that was taking place, experts,
22 medical experts, from all three services, the Air
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1Force, the Army, and the Navy were brought
2together to start planning the repatriation
3process.
4 And Dr. Mitchell represented the Navy
5from the very beginning.
6 Reading between the lines, and even
7though I've been with the program for 28 years, I
8was not there in 1973, but reading between the
9lines, there was a plan.
10 In fact, there was a DoD instruction
11 that said looking at lessons learned from World
12 War II, looking at lessons learned from Korea,
13 kind of extrapolating based on those experiences,
14 to the fact that the Vietnam repatriate was held
15 on average about five years, five and a half
16 years, on average, kept in solitary a little over
17 a year.
18 Again, these are averages so we've got
19 a wide range within that. On average, loss of
20 about 27 percent body weight.
21 The guy that was shot down a month
22 before repatriation in the spring of 1973 didn't
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1lose anywhere near that, so it's a wide range.
2 The Army repatriated the longest-held
3POW in Vietnam was not an aviator, not Ed
4Alvarez, who was the longest-held aviator in the
5Hanoi Hilton, but rather Coronel Thompson, an
6Army Special Forces Officer, who was shot down on
7a scouting mission, let's call it, and held for
8nine days short of nine years.
9 So, there's a huge range of
10 experiences there.
11 So, as the planning was taking place
12 and extrapolating from World War II, Korea,
13 looking at, oh, these guys have been in there
14 longer than any other POWs in American history.
15 The predictions were, and you guys can
16 verify this, that the Vietnam POWs would come
17 home physical wrecks and psychiatric basket
18 cases.
19 That's not really much of a euphemism,
20 it's almost a direct quote from one of the
21 documents, that virtually none of them would be
22 fit to remain on active duty, much less continue
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1duty involved in flight, which has a higher
2medical standard than general duties, just
3because of the nature of aviation.
4 For example, you have to really be
5able to see fairly well if you're in the cockpit.
6and the repatriates were, at least until the
7death of Ho Chi Minh were pretty much tortured on
8a daily basis.
9 And there was some inkling about that
10 because, again, there were a few folks that had
11 accepted early release.
12 So, in addition to those predictions
13 and against extrapolating from World War II and
14 Korea, DoD said, you know, there's a good chance
15 that we're going to have a pretty high mortality
16 rate by five years post-repatriation.
17 And therefore, let's follow them for
18 at least five years.
19 At the end of that five-year period,
20 the two programs in San Antonio, the Air Force
21 and in the Army, obeyed DoD service-specific
22 orders and shut their programs down.
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1 And Dr. Mitchell said, no, we're not
2finished following these people, we maybe need to
3keep their program going.
4 One of the ways that he was be able to
5convince DoD to keep the Navy program going, you
6may have guessed this by now, was that the
7medical experts couldn't have been more wrong.
8 Yes, there were a few early deaths
9following repatriation, but the vast majority of
10 these men, and they were all men in Vietnam,
11 there were no US women POWs.
12 There were a couple of German nurses
13 but no US women POWs in NAM. There were two in
14 Operation Desert Storm in two in Iraqi Freedom, a
15 couple of whom have been a part of this
16 Committee.
17 But the men who came back from Vietnam
18 were pretty darn healthy, healthy enough to
19 remain on active duty, healthy enough to return
20 to duty involving flight.
21 One of the very unique aspects, in
22 addition to the duration of captivity that I
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1already mentioned, with the Vietnam cohort, the
2Vietnam group of repatriates, was that 80 percent
3of that group were officers, 80 percent of that
4group were career-designated.
5 There were a couple of Army POWs in
6NAM who were draftees; the draft was still in
7operation.
8 At least one of them years ago said he
9tried to tell his captors that his draft was over
10 and that he was really no longer in the Army, but
11 the enemy did not honor that.
12 They sort of say you're in the Army
13 now. They didn't allow him to go home. So, the
14 medical experts were very, very wrong.
15 And so now the medical experts, being
16 experts that they are, they said we must be
17 missing something.
18 There must be subtle things there,
19 maybe because there are aviators that they don't
20 want to tell us, but again, they're going back to
21 flying, they're doing their job.
22 But maybe there's some subtle things
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1that we're missing.
2 So, Dr. Mitchell convinced DoD to
3allow the Navy to stand up a comparison group,
4and this comparison group was comprised of 138
5naval aviators matched on 11 different variables
6with the Navy repatriates, officer aviator
7repatriates, in order to see what sort of subtle
8problems existed.
9 From the beginning, it was designed
10 not as a research project but as a medical
11 follow-up program, because we anticipated that
12 people would be in such dire straits.
13 Then, this comparison group was added,
14 again, not so much really to turn it into a
15 research program, because it's really not totally
16 a research program, but again, to help tease out
17 those very, very subtle difficulties that perhaps
18 were missed in this group and shouldn't be missed
19 the next time we have repatriates.
20 Even in '72, '73, there was enough
21 foresight to say we're probably, unfortunately,
22 going to have repatriates in future conflict.
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1 Let's learn as much as we can from
2these Vietnam repatriates so that those medical
3lessons learned could be applied when people, the
421 folks from Desert Storm came home, and the 8
5folks from Iraqi Freedom came home.
6 So, that medical lessons learned was
7built in.
8 The next important person in the
9history of the Robert E. Mitchell Center is Tom
10 McNish. He's a TV star now and everything.
11 So, in '91, Secretary of Defense
12 reportedly said, hey, we've got these 21 POWs
13 coming back from Desert Storm.
14 What are we going to do? I know the
15 Mitchell Center has been following their people.
16 Why don't we ask the Mitchell Center
17 to from Day One of repatriation, well, after the
18 intel debrief was completed, to see the
19 repatriates? Yes, we got that.
20 Have you seen that commercial where
21 the person just drops the mic? That was my
22 attempt.
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1 And that went well, that went well by
2all accounts. There were 21 of them and we have
3a small Staff at the Mitchell Center, so we
4couldn't see all 21 of them at the same time.
5 So, we saw a small group ahead of
6time, another group after that, and they had a
7reunion there in Pensacola over that weekend.
8 And that sounded great, but they
9really didn't want to be -- they wanted to do it
10 that way so they didn't have to be around the
11 real POWs, because in their mind, they said,
12 well, we weren't held long enough.
13 We got that three-day, three-hour,
14 whatever it is, that the Desert Storm folks said
15 we don't want to be around the real POWs. And of
16 course, the real POWs don't want to be around --
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Those new guys
18 never want to be around --
19 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, so there's the new
20 guys and the old guys.
21 POWs like to compare themselves to
22 each other, and so they came there and had this
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1reunion and everyone agreed it was the right
2thing to do to get them to come to the Mitchell
3Center.
4 Well, what does that have to do with
5Tom McNish, you may be asking? In '93, before
6Dr. McNish had to retire, he was assigned to the
7Air Force Surgeon General's Office, and he said -
8- I guess he went to the Airforce Surgeon
9General, three stars -- and said, you know, it's
10 not all right that the Air Force POWs from
11 Vietnam can't be seen at the Mitchell Center.
12 The Air Force stopped their program
13 like the Army did in '78 and we've just kind of
14 been out there.
15 But the Navy and Marine Corps have
16 been followed, and the Air Force Surgeon General
17 said, you know, you're right, let's see if the
18 Mitchell Center can expand, add a few Staff
19 Members if necessary, but incorporate the Air
20 Force repatriates back into the program.
21 That's exactly what was done, thanks
22 again to Tom McNish.
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1 A few years after that, then the Army
2Surgeon General said, well, that's not right, how
3come the Army POWs from Vietnam can't be
4followed?
5 And there were 77 of them, 326 Air
6Force, 138 Navy, 26 Marines, who were repatriated
7in Operation Homecoming.
8 And so at that point, the Army started
9coming and were eligible to come into Pensacola.
10 Each year, each repatriate, Vietnam,
11 Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom, one guy from Black
12 Hawk Down, a couple other here and there, are
13 eligible to come to Pensacola for about a one and
14 a half to two-day evaluation, sort of an
15 executive medicine evaluation, a little bit more
16 extensive than a typical evaluation.
17 But the evaluation includes physical
18 exams, specialty consults, psychological
19 evaluation, memory testing, other cognitive
20 testing, eye exams, a whole host of examinations.
21 And then at the end of that, they're
22 given a debrief on our findings, hey, you better
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1cut back smoking, you better lose some weight.
2Everybody drinks moderately.
3 You would think that --
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I told you already
5we lie.
6 MEMBER MOORE: Oh, okay, that's right.
7 (Laughter.)
8 Soon as the rule about the definition
9of moderate alcohol consumption came out, all of
10 a sudden, everybody was a moderate consumer.
11 83 percent of the repatriates smoked
12 when they came home, partially because the enemy,
13 for some reason, thought it was a good idea to
14 give them cigarettes. I think that they just
15 didn't know any better.
16 They were lousy cigarettes,
17 apparently, but some people started smoking in
18 captivity. But 83 percent smoked and 83 percent
19 drank.
20 Now only about five percent smoke;
21 they stopped a lot sooner than the average man
22 their age in the general population. Somehow, 83
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1percent moderately consumed a moderate amount of
2alcohol.
3 Now, over the years, the size of the
4staff in the Mitchell Center has waxed and waned,
5started off and was kept going by the love of one
6man, Dr. Bob Mitchell.
7 It expanded to a couple of physicians,
8a psychologist, other staff, core men,
9researchers, and now it has dwindled down a
10 little bit.
11 Before I retired, the commitment was
12 from the Navy and some levels of DoD was that the
13 Mitchell Center is not going to close, that even
14 though each year, fewer and fewer folks are
15 eligible to come for the evaluation, that we'll
16 always be open to see any of those repatriates as
17 long as there's someone who wants to come.
18 Now, it may get to a point where
19 there's only one day a week and the rest of the
20 time, people are seeing active duty because it's
21 an active duty facility.
22 But it'll continue, and the research
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1that we've done will continue as well.
2 Let me say a little bit about the
3research because we have published papers,
4lessons learned, actual papers and professional
5journals, publications, and DoD tech report
6websites.
7 Our research is unique for one
8particular reason I feel. Most research,
9epidemiological research, has large numbers of
10 people.
11 They're not known very well by the
12 people who are writing the papers, but because
13 they're so large, they can fine-tune and look at
14 the unique risk factors associated with a
15 particular illness.
16 What sort of conditions led to the
17 problem? Our unique position, since we know
18 these people so many times and, again, some
19 people come more than others.
20 A couple of the people I saw every
21 year consecutively for 28 years. But there's
22 some variability there.
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1 But nevertheless, because it's a small
2group, because we have been seeing people since
31973, our strength is, yes, we know a lot about
4the type of experiences a person had, but we
5probably know more about the type of person that
6had the experience.
7 And that's a unique position, it's
8kind of the flip-flop of the same coin, but it's
9a unique position to be in.
10 Some of our findings were very
11 important, some of them statistically important
12 but sort of irrelevant.
13 One of the best ways to, and this was
14 especially the enlisted, the young enlisted, POWs
15 really loved this finding.
16 Because one of the best ways to reduce
17 long term morbidity and mortality, to reduce
18 mortality, is to send only old officers. And so
19 the young enlisted said, oh, that's great, I'm
20 very glad.
21 So, that's one of the examples of the
22 statistically significant but, militarily, you
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1can't go very far in preserving the fighting
2strength if you only send old officers. And
3you're probably not going to win either.
4 But the Vietnam repatriate brought a
5lot of personal characteristics that helped them
6get through.
7 It's a very resilient group, I
8mentioned that the vast majority stayed on active
9duty. A lot of them were career-designated
10 before they were shot down.
11 We had a sidebar in this in one of the
12 breaks earlier. In Vietnam, there were two Air
13 Force repatriates who had also been POWs in World
14 War II, both held by the Germans.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And one of them was
16 held by us, who was an American citizen.
17 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, yes, so they
18 really have a lot of experience. One of them
19 made a joke that said he left off in Korea and
20 was a POW in Korea as well.
21 But it's a unique group and they've
22 had a unique, unique set of personal background
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1characteristics that they brought to the
2captivity, but they also have unique leadership,
3not to say that it was all perfect leadership,
4but the leadership instill things like return
5with honor.
6 Just coming back wasn't enough, you
7had to come back with honor, and that's the motto
8of that group. If you go to their website, the
9FPOW website, you'll see the logo there, return
10 to finder.
11 Bounce back, there's no better
12 engineering definition of resilience than
13 bouncing back. That was instilled by the
14 leadership.
15 And finally, I think, at least the one
16 I'll mention finally, was you at the above self,
17 and that was a very important leadership doctrine
18 that helped more than others.
19 But these people, the leaders in
20 general, did fairly well. I have permission to
21 say the thing that I'm about to say.
22 One of the big heroes, in my opinion,
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1of the Vietnam group is an Air Force Coronel and
2his name is Smitty Harrison.
3 We were, the United States, they, the
4POWs, were fortunate that Smitty was one of the
5early Air Force.
6 He wasn't all that fortunate, but
7Smitty is the one that brought the tap code.
8 And the tap code allowed for command
9and control and communication, and that
10 communication in some way, shape or another,
11 helped everybody, helped them understand unity of
12 themselves, bounce back, return with honor.
13 And it also gave people the marching
14 orders, and it said, hey, don't talk to these
15 people, do this, do that, and so it was extremely
16 important because it allowed group support
17 despite solitary.
18 You could still tap on the wall and
19 say god bless you. Or you could say, hey, how
20 did it go? What are they looking for these days?
21 That sort of thing. Let me stop
22 there, and I think I've gone over my time.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Somebody cancelled
2so I was not going to call you down.
3 MEMBER MOORE: Okay, let me stop there
4and see if there's questions that I might try to
5answer. Before I take the one
6question, before I officially retired, we
7completed two very important research projects,
8one summarizing the 43-year mortality rate
9following repatriation.
10 So, in other words, '73 to 2016, and
11 one summarizing the morbidity findings during
12 that time, including the findings that were
13 present at the time of repatriation that were
14 part of that admission for the medical
15 evaluation.
16 Yes, ma'am.?
17 MEMBER QUARLES: I have a great
18 appreciation for the Mitchell Center, but my
19 question is, how would you fund it? Federally?
20 MEMBER MOORE: That becomes in part
21 which era you talk about. Before '78, each of the
22 services got money from their Surgeon General.
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1In '78, the funding stopped and the NAMI Command
2took it out.
3 When Dr. McNish weighed in with the Air
4Force, their contribution was the travel funds
5for Air Force repatriates.
6 Then the Army kicked in in '97 and
7since that time, the Army has sent the Mitchell
8Center travel funds.
9 All their operating costs are taken
10 out of the Commander in Pensacola. The Staff
11 salaries, everything else.
12 MEMBER QUARLES: So, you have to get
13 your research funded and all that?
14 MEMBER MOORE: No, but a few years
15 ago, there was actually -- it created some
16 problems because the Mitchell Center actually got
17 a line item in the Federal budget.
18 And everybody said, how the heck did
19 that happen? Well, it happened because of a few
20 high-placed Senators.
21 But as a result of those two years of
22 research findings, Center for Naval Analysis, and
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1Joe is a part of that group, reviewed requests
2for funding and all of that money, none of it
3could stay in house.
4 All of that money had to be given out
5to VA researchers. We funded several research
6projects with the VA, university research.
7 We've collaborated over the years with
8VA, NIH, various universities, have provided some
9input on presumptives.
10 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Joe Milligan, to
11 follow up with that research, I know at the time
12 some of what was being looked at was trying to
13 find predictives of who might do well as a POW,
14 the things that you can apply to the recruitment
15 process and identify early on.
16 Did anything positive come out of
17 that? Since I've left the Department, I have no
18 idea what the results are.
19 MEMBER MOORE: The study that I
20 mentioned that said send old officers, that was
21 the irrelevant part of that study.
22 I was sort of hoping somebody would
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1ask, but what we found was that regardless, and
2in that setting, we looked at a variety of
3different risk factors, length of captivity,
4length of solitary confinement, subjective
5torture severity, estimated weight loss, number
6of captivity-related medical problems.
7 And then we looked at a whole host of
8other things, some psychological, some physical.
9And the best predictor of -- and we did two
10 studies.
11 The first study was whether or not a
12 person had psychiatric illness in the first five
13 years, prior to repatriation.
14 And that was a retrospective study,
15 that was a pretty powerful study, because what we
16 found was that even better than all those other
17 factors, as the enemy said, you must show proper
18 attitude.
19 Because the answer was those POWs
20 enlisted whoever, who had the highest
21 dispositional optimism, did better than anybody
22 else.
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1 Which is kind of interesting because
2Admiral Stockdale in the Stockdale docs was fond
3of saying, well, no, naive Pollyannaish optimists
4didn't do well because we're going to go home by
5Christmas.
6 It wasn't Christmas. They're going to
7go home by St. Patrick's day. Now, I'm not sure
8what he was referring to and I never did get a
9chance to ask him about that.
10 But definitely dispositional optimism
11 helps, and that is something that could be
12 augmented.
13 And in fact, when General Casey, Chief
14 of Staff of the Army, a few years ago hired
15 former Committee Member, Rhonda Cornum, Brigadier
16 General Cornum, to be on his Staff on the
17 Comprehensive Soldier Fitness Program.
18 Basically, General Casey said you can
19 only get so far in producing soldier health by
20 seeing how fast they can run a mile and a half or
21 how many pushups you can do.
22 Let's look at some other factors, and
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1as a result of his guidance, and General Cornum's
2leadership, the Army looked at a whole host of
3different things, including that dispositional
4optimism under the guidance of the civilian
5researcher, Martin Seligman.
6 He's sort of famous for learned
7optimism and flourishing, so he's worked on
8flourishing, et cetera. And so we were very
9pleased when we found that.
10 We then said that's kind of an
11 inelegant study.
12 We looked at retrospective things and
13 so we said let's start fresh, and let's create a
14 list of variables that we can collect for the
15 first time ever, ten physical variables, ten
16 psychological variables.
17 And let's define physical health,
18 which is really hard to do. More often than not,
19 the absence of illness, and that's even less
20 elegant than our first study.
21 So, we came up with ten different
22 factors, to include neurophysiological factors,
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1height, weight, BMI, et cetera, et cetera, blood
2pressure, hemoglobin, A1C, and a whole host of
3things and psychological factors.
4 And we looked at data from 1973 to
5predict 40-year physical, psychological and then
6total health.
7 This is one of the studies, these are
8the two studies, two of the most recent studies
9published in those periphery journals that I
10 mentioned and found that the best predictor of
11 40-year physical and psychological, and therefore
12 total, health was dispositional optimism for
13 1973.
14 Thank you.
15 (Applause.)
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thanks, Jeff. We
17 have one thing, I need to get to one little
18 housekeeping thing before we --
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Don't we have another
20 presenter?
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Do we have another
22 presenter coming in?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Jelessa Burney.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Before you come up,
3though, is anybody able to travel to Washington
4next week? You are? I mean, on the Committee.
5 We have an ACDC meeting, that's not
6the rock group, it's an Advisory Committee
7Meeting that's next week.
8 So, if we could go there, if somebody
9could go there, and please see Leslie about
10 getting on board with that?
11 I'm unable, I've got 16 things on my
12 calendar next week that can't be moved.
13 MEMBER QUARLES: Is it all week,
14 Leslie?
15 MS. WILLIAMS: It's two days, the 5th
16 and 6th.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The 5th and 6th.
18 My wife's 69th birthday is the 6th, I'm not going
19 anywhere. Okay, while you're looking at your
20 calendars --
21 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Don't look at me, I
22 live in San Antonio. I've been invited to a
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1birthday party there.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, Jelessa
3Burney? Boomer said he wasn't coming to this
4Committee today.
5 MS. BURNEY: Well, hello and good
6afternoon. Thank you all for having me again. I
7am Jelessa Burney from the Advisory Committee
8Management Office, Office of the Secretary, and
9I'm just here to give you a few updates and/or
10 reminders or quick tips.
11 And so with regards to the Secretary's
12 Office, we're preparing for the Secretary SecVA
13 Chair DFO Strategic Summit. So just a little
14 background about it. In 2015 May we held the
15 first one. We coordinated with Secretary
16 McDonald and it was basically a face-to-face
17 event where the Secretary shared his visions for
18 VA and how the Committee would support that. And
19 he did that with the chairs. So it was such a
20 success. We had planned for him to speak to the
21 chairs for about an hour, but he actually chatted
22 with them for about two hours and a half.
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1 So we had planned to do one earlier
2this year, but because Shulkin, Dr. Shulkin was
3appointed and still trying to get on board with
4his visions and priorities, we had to push it
5back. His schedule kind of filled up. So we're
6on track now.
7 So the event is going to be held
8January the 11th of 2018. We've already sent out
9save the dates to the Committee chair. And so
10 this time around we've invited the DFOs simply
11 because we share so much information, or they get
12 so much information from the Secretary. We
13 understand that the chairs sometimes are busy and
14 they have their hands full with other outside
15 activities that they forget to share all of what
16 is discussed during the meeting. And so we want
17 to make sure the DFO is up with what's going on
18 and able to share that stuff back with their
19 program office as well that's supporting them.
20 And so basically we're trying to
21 continue to enhance or transform that
22 relationship between the Secretary and the
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1Committee chair. He's also going to advocate for
2the cross-committee collaboration. And so the
3cross-committee collaboration, I believe your
4committee is already doing that. You did
5something in May with the Advisory Committee on
6Disability Compensation. So you've already had
7your chair to come here. And we actually
8introduced that theory or initiative at our
9annual training to the DFOs. And so now we have
10 the Secretary, who too is going to also promote
11 that. And it basically helps you all with
12 getting your recommendations together.
13 So if everything is synchronized and
14 it's a better chance for VA to move out with that
15 recommendation if we're all pretty much saying
16 the same thing, if your recommendation is similar
17 to perhaps the Rural Health folks or Minority
18 Veterans, you have something similar.
19 And then another topic he'll discuss
20 during that event is going to be the SMART
21 recommendations template. And I actually have
22 copies to present to you all. And so for those
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1who don't know what the SMART acronym is, it's
2basically specific or measurable actionable
3realistic or time-framed recommendations, and it
4basically helps you clarify what is expected in
5doing your recommendations or writing it out and
6a better chance again for us to have it passed.
7 Let's see. And the last time I saw
8you all I mentioned that the Secretary was
9standing up an additional five advisory
10 committees. And so since the last time we met
11 the first one that he did was the Veterans Family
12 Caregiver Survivor Advisory Committee. They've
13 already held their first inaugural meeting on
14 October 23rd and 24th in D.C., and he addressed
15 that committee. And basically all of their
16 issues are related to veterans families and
17 caregivers.
18 The second one was the Combat on
19 Fraud, Waste and Abuse, or VA Prevention of
20 Fraud, Waste and Abuse. They actually had their
21 meeting on November 7th. And the DEPSEC was
22 supposed to address that committee, but he had
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1some other things going on.
2 And then a third one was the Suicide
3Prevention, because that's one of the Secretary's
4top priorities to find a better way to get a
5handle on the 22 veterans that are actually --
6you know, committed suicide. But as of right now
7that committee establishment is on hold. So
8we're still trying to figure out what route or
9direction he's trying to go. So we're waiting.
10 We know we need to do that.
11 And then two others were the
12 Presidential Commission which was creating
13 options for veterans' expedited recovery or the
14 Cover Commission. And that one is basically
15 doing a study on the opioid crisis. And
16 currently we're still waiting on some of the
17 members to be appointed by the President for that
18 one. And the chair I believe.
19 And then the last one was the Veteran
20 and Community Oversight and Engagement Board,
21 which is the one that I just call the West L.A.
22 So Jeff is going to attend their inaugural
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1meeting next week, and it's going to be in L.A.
2and the Secretary is going to address that
3Committee via VTC, virtual teleconference.
4 A few updates. In your binder we have
5revised the "VA Committee Member Handbook." And
6so we've added in a few sections. One is dealing
7with dual memberships. So no Committee member
8will serve on more than one VA committee at a
9time. At a time we did have some members -- we
10 had maybe two or three or four that were serving
11 on three different committees at a time. We need
12 you to focus on one at a time. And besides, we
13 have other folks in the public who can also bring
14 in their expertise to help promote and advocate
15 for other recommendations or bring their advice
16 for the committees.
17 Term of appointment. I believe Jeff
18 has spoken to you all in the past about serving
19 your actual one term. And one term you placed at
20 two years. However, if your committee charter or
21 statute indicate -- for instance the Disability
22 Compensation Committee, their committee members
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1can still -- one term equates to three years. So
2they're actually serving just a tad bit longer.
3So if your statute does not indicate specifically
4what it is, then it defaults to one term being
5two years. And I think for FPOW there is no
6specification, so it would default to just the
7two years unless the Secretary reappoints you.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. I thought it
9was three. That's what I thought.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Is a copy of the
11 charter --
12 MS. BURNEY: Yes, I didn't see it.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: -- in the binder as
14 well?
15 MS. BURNEY: I looked --
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Can you look at the
17 charter?
18 MS. BURNEY: -- but I didn't see it in
19 there. And I looked in the statute too before
20 I --
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, when did this
2get updated?
3 MS. BURNEY: We revised it and sent it
4out to everyone August 2017, so this is now in
5your binder.
6 And then lastly we're always of course
7looking for new members, obtaining candidates and
8doing the recruitment strategy. So when you all
9are, just ask that -- at some point in time
10 you'll either roll off, or you have other things
11 going on and perhaps you may have to vacate the
12 position a little early serving as a member, and
13 so we just ask that you start thinking about your
14 replacement.
15 And just note that even if you submit
16 someone's name, they're -- it's not like an
17 automatic selection. We get résumés from
18 Congress folks. And people automatically assume
19 that they are members once their information is
20 submitted, and then it doesn't go that way. But
21 we just ask that you submit names to us or to
22 Leslie if you know of someone.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So when Mr. Moragne
2talked to us a couple of years ago it was a
3three-year appointment, six years total. And we
4set up a rotation based on that that was approved
5by his office earlier -- well, a year ago.
6 MS. BURNEY: So maybe it's in --
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so --
8 MS. BURNEY: I didn't see it in the
9statute, but maybe it is in --
10 (Simultaneous speaking.)
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It's not -- may not
12 be in the statute, but it was approved by your
13 office.
14 MS. BURNEY: Okay. I'll follow that.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so if that's
16 been changed, the chairman should have been
17 notified --
18 MS. BURNEY: Right.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- of the change,
20 because that creates another round of havoc.
21 MS. BURNEY: Right.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: This is a committee
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1where people don't have that much expertise out
2in the general public, or interest.
3 MS. BURNEY: Right.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So we --
5 MS. BURNEY: And so for continuity we
6would do that, yes.
7 MS. BURNEY: For continuity and
8stability of the committee we need an answer on
9that posthaste, please.
10 MS. BURNEY: Okay. I'll follow up and
11 I'll let you know tomorrow.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Good. Thank you.
13 MS. BURNEY: Any other questions?
14 (No audible response.)
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: One of my concerns
16 has been that things change in the headquarters
17 without consulting the chairs.
18 MS. BURNEY: Right.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That was one of the
20 things I wanted to the Secretary about when we
21 meet in January. So we get DFO changes without
22 any warning, any consultation with the chairs.
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1It's after-the-fact notification.
2 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's unsat. And
4if our terms of office have changed from six
5years to two years, or four years maximum, then
6that's another -- it creates another piece of
7havoc that we have to work through to get both
8membership's willingness --
9 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- and stability.
11 MS. BURNEY: And so I can address the
12 situation with the DFO and the DFOs changing out.
13 And so the Secretary looks to our office working
14 with the program office that supports the
15 Committee --
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
17 MS. BURNEY: -- to ensure that there
18 is a trained DFO and alternate DFO. So he
19 doesn't necessarily know that each is on, who
20 they are. So when a change happens, the Program
21 Office should notify us in writing. And then in
22 turn we can notify the chair or the Program
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1Offices responsible to do that.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It would be really
3nice not only to notify the chair, but give the
4chair some kind of opportunity to interview the
5new person so we know we're actually on the same
6sheet of music.
7 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Because that caused
9friction this last time that Leslie and I had to
10 work through over a month or two. And it
11 happened, I mean, because she's easy to work
12 with --
13 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- and I'm not.
15 But so --
16 (Laughter.)
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So that worked
18 through and we have an excellent relationship
19 now. We have a regular conversation to keep up
20 with what's going on. But then to say, okay, now
21 you've got a new DFO --
22 MS. BURNEY: Right.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- and have to go
2through that whole relationship development --
3 MS. BURNEY: Right.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- process is
5difficult.
6 MS. BURNEY: Because since you've
7taken on this position as the chair, you've
8actually worked with Eric as well, right, as --
9 (Simultaneous speaking.)
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I did. I was
11 working with Eric to start with. and that --
12 MS. BURNEY: I mean, as a DFO.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: He was our DFO when
14 I first came on board --
15 MS. BURNEY: Right.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- and before --
17 just as we got settled in the job he was gone.
18 MS. BURNEY: Yes. I think because
19 they --
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: They moved him to
21 a different office.
22 MS. BURNEY: Yes, a different office
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1that supported it. Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And that was -- and
3so I didn't know anything about -- I was
4blindsided by that process.
5 MS. BURNEY: Right.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And I'm not the
7only chairman out there. So I'm sure that I'm
8not the only one that's been blindsided by an
9unforeseen, unwanted and unwarranted shift
10 without prior consultation.
11 MS. BURNEY: Yes. Yes, I'll let Jeff
12 know about that as well tomorrow. And so when
13 you're scheduling -- you're planning to attend
14 the event.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
16 MS. BURNEY: So in the case that
17 you're not able to attend the Secretary's event
18 in January, then we would ask for you to submit
19 -- send your --
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, it's on my
21 calendar.
22 MS. BURNEY: Oh, it is?
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Leslie made sure of
2that.
3 (Laughter.)
4 MS. BURNEY: -- early meeting to sit
5down and chat with Jeff about some of your
6concerns. If anything, you have him I'm sure on
7speed dial.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I do.
9 MS. BURNEY: Yes. So --
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: He recognizes my
11 voice.
12 MS. BURNEY: I know.
13 (Laughter.)
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And I also know --
15 now I know why he's called Boomer, so I have
16 something over him.
17 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
18 (Laughter.)
19 MS. BURNEY: And I still don't know
20 that.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I know. And I'm
22 not going to tell you because I swore I wouldn't.
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1 MS. BURNEY: So I'm going to pass out
2this -- these templates to you all.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And that's -- by
4the way, this is the template we used in
5developing our 2017 set of recommendations. And
6when you look at that report, towards the end
7you'll see all these qualifications on the back
8and how they're to be implemented.
9 Yes, McDonald is using it to start
10 with.
11 Okay. Anymore questions?
12 (No audible response.)
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. Again,
14 if you have travel availability, if you could get
15 to Washington next week, please see Leslie and
16 let's get that arranged.
17 The other piece that goes along with
18 that from our earlier request if you will think
19 about any of those committees that I mentioned
20 and interest groups that I mentioned. If you're
21 willing to serve on this Committee as a subgroup,
22 a working group to go into those other
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1constituents, we need to know that.
2 Now the deal is for us to go legally
3and be a legal entity our DFO has to be -- or our
4alternate has to be present with us. So you just
5can't go because you want to. In order to get
6paid you also have to be on orders like always.
7So that's just -- it's just like we can't have a
8legal meeting unless Leslie is sitting here
9because she's the one who makes it legal, or
10 Maquel. He can be her backup. And he's really
11 excited about knowing us for some reason.
12 (Laughter.)
13 MEMBER MOORE: That's why we like her.
14 (Laughter.)
15 MEMBER MOORE: Just one of the
16 reasons.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So do we have
18 anything else for today?
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, so we do have a
20 few things to close out.
21 So the first thing is I will be
22 sending out the list of the 29 committees. I
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1actually am working on it right now, so I'll be
2sending it out today.
3 In regards to some of the concerns
4that the Committee brought up -- so the concern
5about their disability compensation being
6reduced, the inconsistency in ratings across VA
7and also getting FPOWs into the system, tomorrow
8you will hear from one of the directors from
9Compensation Service as well as Ms. Anna
10 Crenshaw. So that will be the perfect time to
11 ask those questions because they can definitely
12 give you a response from the national
13 perspective.
14 Let's see. So one thing I have for
15 Mr. Milligan; and we can talk a little bit more
16 off line, but in regards to the flight records
17 for your wife I think I have a solution for that.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, okay.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: So I was looking into
20 something, but we can talk a little bit more off
21 line --
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: -- for it.
2 As far as the list of FPOWs, one of
3the things that I am currently working on is
4doing a data sharing agreement with DoD. My
5office currently has one, so we're trying to
6decide if we want to include the request for
7FPOWs underneath that request or do it
8independently. At this point in time we have not
9decided, but I'm assuming we'll probably go the
10 route that's the most quickest and effective.
11 And last but not least, we didn't get
12 a chance to do the open remarks, so I want to
13 take this opportunity to give Mr. Marshall a
14 chance to introduce himself to the Committee.
15 I hope I'm not putting you on the
16 spot.
17 MR. MARSHALL: So good afternoon,
18 everyone. As Leslie mentioned, I am E. Maquel
19 Marshall. I've met a lot of you in passing or an
20 event or talking about a few personal things. I
21 am excited to assist and be a part of the team.
22 I've heard a lot of good things about you, about
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1the Committee, and I know you're doing great
2works and wish to continue that. I myself would
3love to assist with anything that you need.
4 I am originally from Louisville,
5Kentucky, graduated from a little small school
6called the University of Kentucky. You all might
7have heard of us, a few national championships.
8 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Go Big Blue.
9 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, sir.
10 MEMBER MILLIGAN: We understand. We
11 got it, yes.
12 (Laughter.)
13 MR. MARSHALL: But coming from the
14 University of Kentucky I was recruited by USDA to
15 work as a farm loan officer. Chairman Certain
16 and I were talking about that and I was
17 explaining to him --
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I wouldn't tell
19 that story if I were you.
20 (Laughter.)
21 MR. MARSHALL: Want me to hold off?
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I think you better
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1hold off until --
2 MR. MARSHALL: I'll tell you off line.
3 (Laughter.)
4 MR. MARSHALL: Went to the Muhammad
5Ali Center and then came over to the VA.
6 And if you notice in there, I did not
7mention being a veteran. I myself am not a
8veteran, but the love and the compassion that I
9have for veterans and everything that you all
10 have done or continue to do for me to live
11 freely, it is amazing and it burns a fire in my
12 heart. That's why I am still here with the VA
13 and don't want to go anywhere.
14 Had a lady ask me why are you so happy
15 every day and I told her because I'm here and I
16 get to assist and I get to serve. This is my way
17 to serve. And she said, well, give it 30 days
18 and you won't be happy.
19 (Laughter.)
20 MR. MARSHALL: And that was in 2011.
21 And I call her once a month to tell her that I'm
22 still happy. And then I just hang up the phone
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1on her.
2 (Laughter.)
3 MR. MARSHALL: But, and I say that
4because I'm happy with what I do. And my father
5told me a long time ago if you love what you're
6doing, you'll never work a day in your life. So
7me working with veterans and working here at the
8VA, it's really not work for me. I love doing
9it.
10 So I thank you for having me and look
11 forward to meeting everyone a little more
12 personally later on. Thanks.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: And I have one last
14 thing. So I did do some research on the
15 definition for FPOW, and for some reason online I
16 cannot find anything that's cited by DoD.
17 Obviously they had something from DoD, but it was
18 on Wikipedia, so I did not trust it.
19 (Laughter.)
20 MS. WILLIAMS: I did go to 38 U.S.C.,
21 and when I looked at that definition, it does not
22 give a time constraint. As well as I reached out
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1to one of my peers and I had he as well as myself
2looking at all the VA's guidance. I cannot find
3anything that give a time constraint. The only
4thing that I can think of in regards to the case
5that we heard, I did find some verbiage that says
6that Do -- I'm sorry, DoD -- VA, we can make a
7determination of our own.
8 So according to that guidance, VA has
9the authority to question anything that DoD
10 provides them or any other agency. In my time as
11 the program manager I have never seen that
12 happen, so I don't know if that would have
13 transpired in that case. I'm assuming not
14 because it would have come through my office.
15 But regardless, I will send out that definition
16 that I found, but I just can't find anything that
17 has a time constraint. But I do know we do go
18 off DoD for our definition. That I'm 100 percent
19 positive of.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. So that's --
21 that -- we may have been living off of word of
22 mouth that doesn't apply, or may be buried some
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1place that we haven't uncovered yet. So if
2anybody knows where it is for sure and can find
3the documentation, then we need to get it to the
4VA with a correct citation so we all are
5comfortable with the definition.
6 We're all uncomfortable with stolen
7valor.
8 MEMBER MOORE: Correct.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so, that's one
10 of our sensitivities about -- is stolen valor,
11 the posers. One of Dr. Moore's predecessors told
12 me one time they even had a poser for the control
13 group.
14 MEMBER MOORE: That's correct. Yes,
15 there was no valor there. He was just cheap and
16 wanted a free physical.
17 (Laughter.)
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So I'd say what
19 kind of a bar line is that? So let's do our --
20 we're on our own for dinner tonight. We'll have
21 our group dinner tomorrow night. And so there
22 are lots of restaurants in -- there are several
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1right in the hotel and across at the Regency, so
2you don't have to walk far to get there. Shirley
3will be happy to drive you --
4 (Laughter.)
5 MS. WILLIAMS: So I have one last
6thing, and I promise this is it.
7 So she was out of the room, but she's
8back now, so I do want to give Ms. Anna Crenshaw,
9who is the director for the Outreach Program, the
10 opportunity to speak. She will be speaking more
11 in depth tomorrow, but --
12 MS. CRENSHAW: Thank you, Leslie.
13 You're going to hear from me tomorrow, but I'll
14 take a few minutes, and I won't take long because
15 I know it's time to go.
16 So what am I speaking on? Just
17 telling you a little bit about myself, as Leslie
18 said and most of you guys can see, I am a
19 veteran. I am an Army veteran. I am -- I had an
20 array of jobs in the military when I started out.
21 Kind of interesting story: I was dating a
22 recruiter and I got suckered into the military.
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1 (Laughter.)
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Did you marry that
3guy or did you walk away?
4 MS. CRENSHAW: I did not. I walked
5away from that guy.
6 (Laughter.)
7 MS. CRENSHAW: Real soon. But it was
8life changing for me. I did meet my husband. I
9thank him because I did meet my husband in the
10 military. My husband, we got married and just --
11 well, we were two enlisted individuals and just
12 -- but very aggressive and very motivated.
13 And I worked on the air field. The
14 only female that worked on that air field. And
15 he wanted to fly helicopters. He always talked
16 about it. So I mentioned to one of the majors
17 one day because I -- I worked at the post office,
18 so all the guys hung out at the post office for
19 some reason. Only female there. And the major
20 mentioned that he wanted -- I mentioned to the
21 major that my husband wanted to fly. And he
22 says, well, hey, have him come see me.
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1 That led to a recommendation to flight
2school. My husband got accepted. We transferred
3to Fort Rucker. And at that time I had about
4nine candidates that used to hang out at my house
5to study, because flight school is very
6demanding, as you know. Any of you who've ever
7flown know that it can be very demanding. So
8they studied at my house a lot. And I complained
9and I cooked and I kind of took care of them.
10 And then being the guys and jocks that
11 they are, they were like you would never get into
12 flight school. So I said, okay, well, we'll see.
13 And I on a bet -- all of them bet me $200 that I
14 would not get accepted. I took them up on that
15 bet and --
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You chumped them
17 out of $200?
18 MS. CRENSHAW: Two hundred bucks
19 apiece.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Each person?
21 MS. CRENSHAW: Each person. And I
22 took the exam and I was -- I got into flight
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1school. I was a -- me and one other female, and
2out of 200 people. And I started my training,
3did my flight training right there at Fort
4Rucker. Graduated. My husband was an Apache
5pilot. I tracked Black Hawks. And guess what
6happened? Desert Storm.
7 (Laughter.)
8 MS. CRENSHAW: So we were both
9deployed to Desert Storm and I -- he wanted to
10 get out. The military said, hey, we invested too
11 much in you. You're going to fly this
12 helicopter.
13 But we were a family of six at the
14 time. We had four kids, very young. A set of
15 twins. And it was just -- I'm great at a lot of
16 things. I was great at being a military officer,
17 great at being a pilot, excellent wife. You
18 couldn't have got any better. And I like to
19 think of myself as an excellent mother, but I had
20 to make a choice where I wanted to be excellent
21 in, because just spread myself thin. So I chose
22 to be a wife and mother. And I got out of the
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1military and I have never regretted that.
2 And then my life took another turn.
3I've always -- I became a military -- I was
4always a military wife, but I really became a
5military wife and began to serve. And that's
6when I knew what service was in supporting him
7and all the -- his career moves.
8 And my last move that has -- that led
9me here was we left Germany and I applied for a
10 position with the Department of Veteran Affairs.
11 I accepted a position as a veteran service
12 representative here in the Atlanta Regional
13 Office. And it was humbling and it changed my
14 life. I -- being a veteran I didn't even know
15 what I was entitled to, but it opened my eyes.
16 And I said -- I promised myself that I would do
17 everything I could to educate, inform and empower
18 other veterans so they would not be as naïve; I
19 don't like to say ignorant, as I was about those
20 benefits.
21 So I was just telling Howard, my
22 ambition and my dream, all I ever wanted to do
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1was rate claims because it gave me the autonomy
2to grant something that changed people's lives.
3And I would come in on Saturdays and I would work
4and I would -- I -- when I couldn't get people
5during the week, I would come in early on
6Saturday mornings and call them. And everybody
7was home Saturday morning. And then I was able
8to actually get the evidence and things that I
9needed to make a decision and change people's
10 lives.
11 I got the rating job. And somebody
12 saw something in me here, Mr. Bocchicchio. He
13 promoted to be a decision review officer, and
14 that was even better because then I had a little
15 bit more power. I could overturn what had been
16 denied, and that empowered me. But it was -- it
17 just felt so good to be able to do that. I had
18 my dream job.
19 And my husband, being the military
20 person he was, was sent to D.C. And I fought,
21 kicked and screamed, but being the good wife that
22 I am; and that's the love of my life and my best
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1friend, I decided I didn't want another woman to
2get him, so I went with him to D.C.
3 (Laughter.)
4 MS. CRENSHAW: And I'm still there.
5I went to be a training specialist, developed the
6curriculum for the Challenge training for the
7RVSRs so that I could continue to shape the
8outcome of that process. I loved it.
9 I again got promoted. I traveled for
10 two years and I was so tired. Got promoted to be
11 the chief of Veteran -- Military and Veteran
12 Client Services Division. Boomer actually --
13 Jeff -- Mr. Moragne hired me into that position.
14 And it was phenomenal. And that's the programs
15 -- that gave me all the programs that we have.
16 We run in BAS probably about 19 to 21 programs if
17 -- either we're directly responsible for, a
18 liaison for. And as you know, in -- I was doing
19 that job.
20 And this is how God just -- I mean,
21 and I don't want to offend anybody, but I do
22 believe in the Lord and I believe that I was just
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1truly blessed and meant to be doing exactly what
2I'm doing. Didn't apply for anything and wasn't
3intending to do anything but what I was doing.
4And my assistant director left BAS, took another
5position. We was already short one chief. I was
6doing a chief job, my chief job and then they
7asked me, well, will you act as the assistant
8director? I said, well, what else can I do? And
9I just began acting. And I got promoted into
10 that position. So I believe that that was a
11 divine blessing for me.
12 And it has been very good.
13 Challenging at times. but the program has grown
14 over the years. And so that's how I became the
15 assistant director. And my goal before I leave
16 into my legacy would be to ensure that every
17 program underneath my oversight is strong, is
18 powerful. And I was just telling Dr. -- is that
19 we get out and we do outreach, that we actually
20 have a return on investment by knowing what we're
21 doing. So when we're out there outreaching,
22 what's our return? How many veterans are we
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1actually getting to file claims or submit -- or
2getting something?
3 So my goal is to reach out to every
4veteran that I can and say to them, hey, the VA
5-- we care. We're -- I'm a veteran, you're a
6veteran. And we're family and family take care
7of each other. And so being that the veteran
8population is my family, I -- there's nothing
9that I will ask my enlisted to do that I will not
10 do myself. There are times that we're there to
11 8:00, 9:00. When I say I got a phenomenal staff,
12 I have a phenomenal staff, but they're in the
13 trenches with me. And we do want to make a
14 difference.
15 So we want you to know that we care.
16 I care. And whatever I can do to make this
17 committee better, I will be there behind you. I
18 will root for you. If you need anything, all you
19 got to do is let me know, reach out to Leslie,
20 and we'll try our best to make it happen within
21 the law. I don't believe in breaking the law.
22 Not yet.
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1 (Laughter.)
2 MS. CRENSHAW: So I thank you. I'm
3honored to stand before you. I will do a
4briefing tomorrow. I'm honored to work for the
5Department of Veteran Affairs. And through all
6of the transitions that we have gone through, I
7stand here still in this position and still
8serving veterans because I am that veteran that I
9represent.
10 So I just thank you for your service.
11 And you are the -- I don't even know how to
12 explain it, but it just -- it makes me almost
13 come to tears to think of what you endured for
14 this country. And for me to stand here, what you
15 went through allows me the opportunity to be in
16 the position that I am, and I am forever grateful
17 for that and I will serve you well. Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you.
19 (Applause.)
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. Can we
21 stand adjourned for the day?
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Until tomorrow.
2Can we leave everything on the tables?
3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. Good.
5 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
6went off the record at 4:28 p.m.)
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A 73:19 76:8 advising 64:17 181:22 184:20 190:7 A- 1:9 activities 32:2 67:8 advisory 1:3 2:7 8:3,12 190:10,12,16,19 a.m 1:10 4:2 101:13,14 208:15 12:22 13:1 15:5,9,22 191:5 196:12 198:1,5 102:14 143:5 activity 155:15 26:17 81:14 103:17 200:3,5 232:13,14 A1C 205:2 actual 194:4 212:19 145:11 146:6,15 aircraft 176:19 abduction 130:21 acupuncture 34:16 206:6 207:7 209:5 Airforce 190:8 able 32:2 33:22 37:3 add 46:1,3 47:12 210:9,12 Al 2:8 5:17 6:10 57:9 48:8 68:1 70:10 71:14 155:10 168:6,11 advocacy 10:16 Alabama 81:19 85:8 74:6 75:1,22 81:16 174:1 190:18 advocate 2:4 3:6 6:15 alcohol 192:9 193:2 89:3,14 91:19 109:19 added 60:21 103:21 6:17 51:4 64:8 65:3 Ali 227:5 112:5 115:22 119:10 153:7 187:13 212:6 66:9 68:9 69:9 72:16 aligned 39:1 67:14,16 119:13 126:9 132:21 adding 46:3 47:9,15 75:16 89:2 91:7 109:4 aligns 28:14 133:1 134:16 144:17 153:12 167:12 168:2 117:13 118:11,19 alive 99:2 144:18 146:11 150:15 175:4 128:22 132:5 139:8 allow 116:9 117:8 155:17 157:3,4,15,22 addition 34:11 47:8 140:15 156:11 158:4 186:13 187:3 158:5 166:11 169:11 67:9 104:6,10 110:10 160:4,14 164:10 allowed 140:17,22 171:2 184:5 185:4 112:2 184:12 185:22 165:2 170:18,19 198:8,16 206:3 208:18 220:17 additional 46:1,4 47:10 171:1 209:1 212:14 allows 33:8 240:15 236:7,17 47:15 60:21 65:13 advocates 69:10 alluded 151:3 179:14 above-entitled 101:12 103:21 110:5,7 advocating 164:4 alternate 2:3 126:5 143:4 177:20 241:5 114:21 116:21,21 Affairs 1:1 235:10 217:18 223:4 absence 204:19 117:11 126:17,19 240:5 alternately 113:3 Absolutely 129:15 127:1 135:12 140:8 affect 13:12,12,13 alternative 34:14 abuse 98:14 210:19,20 162:7,12 164:5 167:9 15:16 Alvarez 183:4 abuser 98:13 167:13 175:4 210:9 afield 62:1 Alzheimer's 123:2 Academies 10:10,11 additionally 124:4 afraid 16:17,18 180:20 181:4 academy 145:16 address 57:20 87:16,20 after-the-fact 217:1 amazes 62:12 accept 24:3 151:19 87:21 95:17 133:10 afternoon 207:6 225:17 amazing 43:3 227:11 acceptable 87:12 111:8 134:16 135:5 147:7 age 179:18,21 180:18 Ambardekar 2:5 3:9 accepted 178:20 156:20 179:14 210:22 180:19 192:22 64:11 75:7 78:16 184:11 233:2,14 212:2 217:11 agencies 43:11 102:15,17,21 103:10 235:11 addressed 71:15 114:7 agency 229:10 103:14 113:8 126:13 access 12:6 24:9 36:22 125:2 127:5 128:19 agenda 5:22 20:10 126:16 127:15,22 39:7 42:22 45:8 99:4 131:11 210:14 90:22 129:15,21 131:2,18 165:9 addresses 87:15 88:17 agenda-free 173:12 132:3 133:5 134:13 accessed 88:18 99:4,10 Agent 18:10,11,17,18 135:2,19 136:1 137:7 accommodate 30:6 addressing 76:15 109:8 60:10 138:7,16 139:14 39:11 110:7 aggressive 232:12 140:4 141:2,9 142:17 accomplish 152:4,15 Adjourn 3:16 aging 69:6 151:17 173:11,11 account 33:16 adjourned 240:21 176:1 ambition 235:22 accounts 189:2 adjustment 70:9 104:22 ago 9:4 14:10 16:13,21 amen 27:19,19,19 ACDC 206:5 105:1 17:19 42:15 56:4 America 38:4 77:4,7 ACE 109:20 111:7,7,16 Administration 153:2 81:15 87:11 109:2 American 11:4,10 113:20 115:11 116:1 administrative 22:10 115:16 121:11,21 120:5 183:14 196:16 119:14 122:5 124:10 administrator 20:3 128:2 143:12,15 amount 70:5 150:16 125:10 Admiral 203:2 170:5,6 178:8 179:15 193:1 achieved 157:7 admission 124:3 186:8 200:15 203:14 Analysis 200:22 ACMO 8:10 199:14 215:2,5 228:5 analysts 6:8 acronym 210:1 admit 92:20 agree 18:8 and/or 73:21 207:9 act 103:16 238:7 admittedly 162:2 agreed 79:17 190:1 Andersonville 67:4 acting 238:9 Adobe 153:14 agreement 225:4 Angela 52:3 actionable 210:2 advanced 119:10 ahead 108:2 189:5 ankle 121:3 actions 21:14 23:2 122:10 123:1,11 aid 104:16 123:20 126:2 Ann 81:9 active 66:22 80:19 advantage 164:20 126:22 127:2 Anna 2:9 6:4 224:9 153:16 162:1,16 advice 13:17 98:19 aided 64:10 231:8 183:22 185:19 193:20 212:15 air 4:12,18 5:1,11 24:19 Annette 2:3 3:5 20:2 193:21 196:8 advise 12:4 24:20,22 33:5 54:5,12 24:11,16,17 25:8 52:7 actively 67:6 68:20 69:5 advised 68:2 139:7,11 61:3 145:15 178:11 62:11 78:14 79:17
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pleased 204:9 63:13 64:8 65:14 66:4 137:22 158:1 150:21 plus 31:6 46:5 79:21 66:7,11 67:10 68:9 presented 160:18 prisoner 3:13 4:12 80:1 85:18 69:6 71:18 72:3 73:1 presenter 112:14 12:12 51:20 69:13 pocket 69:20 73:10,16 75:4 78:7 205:20,22 72:2,11 119:17 poignantly 180:21 81:1,3,12,20 82:4 presenting 143:9 120:12 150:10 151:5 point 18:5 33:8 45:3 85:12 86:7,12 89:9,9 preserved 163:3 151:5 152:19 175:9 71:8 74:6 92:12 93:20 91:7,17 92:7 93:16 preserving 196:1 177:14 128:21 191:8 193:18 94:2,7,8 95:19 96:1,6 president 76:6 83:4 prisoners 1:3 11:20 214:9 225:8 96:14,14,19 97:18,20 211:17 16:8 65:18 73:18 points 181:11 98:16 105:13 110:3 Presidential 211:12 78:12 103:15 144:14 policies 12:17 103:21 127:18 129:17 132:9 presiding 1:11 145:11 146:15,17,20 Pollack 2:6 3:11 7:14 132:16 133:2 135:22 pressure 205:2 152:18,22 154:16 7:14 140:21 141:8,12 136:19 137:18,19 presumed 105:5 148:1 171:15,17,18,20 143:8 145:7 153:4 138:2,6 139:10,13 presumptive 18:4,12 privacy 87:15 168:17,20 169:6 147:9 148:8 149:4,5,7 67:11 103:22 104:7 pro 19:6 170:16,21 171:19 149:15 151:15 152:6 104:18 105:7,11 probability 152:6 172:20 173:20 176:22 158:6 162:2,17 106:16 128:19 147:19 probably 9:8 27:5 30:14 POLLOCK 86:20 163:21 176:1,13 presumptives 18:2,10 41:15 42:15 47:3 48:9 polls 153:17,20 183:3 196:20 201:13 18:17 103:20 106:13 49:16 70:3 82:3 89:12 Pollyannaish 203:3 POW's 12:2 109:10 110:8 112:18 127:5 132:12 134:12 pop 117:18 118:5 POW-specific 54:9 113:22 114:5 115:2 169:8 187:21 195:5 133:13 power 236:15 118:9 125:21 146:17 196:3 225:9 237:16 population 11:18,18,19 powerful 202:15 238:18 147:17 150:17 151:2 problem 18:1 21:3 37:9 19:20 29:5 35:4 66:21 POWs 7:8 12:1 17:1 164:21 174:6 201:9 44:14 98:17 117:15 71:22 75:21 76:2 19:16 27:10,12 28:13 pretty 5:22 28:9 31:20 117:16 118:3 128:4,4 93:10 148:14 149:13 50:14 52:1 53:20 67:15 70:2 157:8 128:12 129:14,20 151:16 160:16 162:15 54:11 62:9 65:9 76:4 173:6 184:7,15 138:5 194:17 165:10 166:3 176:1 76:7 80:3,12,17 81:14 185:18 202:15 209:15 problems 43:18 109:15 192:22 239:8 82:15 86:9,21 91:22 prevalence 116:4,15 114:22 119:7 149:3 pork 33:15,19 99:1 104:21 105:10 prevent 50:3 187:8 200:16 202:6 portion 162:5 163:2 112:18 132:10 134:14 prevention 7:16 39:5 process 9:20 21:17 poser 230:12 146:12 147:3,5 148:9 49:5 210:19 211:3 32:16 33:7 39:20 posers 230:11 148:15 149:17 151:11 previous 143:18 108:1 109:4 115:4,5 position 68:15 91:11 151:20 157:7 158:1 Previously 66:12 131:17 167:6 172:22 162:4 172:17 194:17 176:6 178:13 183:14 Price 2:11 64:13 128:2 173:5 182:3 201:15 195:7,9 214:12 219:7 183:16 185:11,13 133:15,16 134:14 219:4 220:4 237:8 235:10,11 237:13 186:5 188:12 189:11 141:4 processed 117:1 238:5,10 240:7,16 189:15,16,21 190:10 primarily 68:14 166:21 positions 140:2 191:3 195:14 196:13 primary 12:2 32:12 34:6 processing 109:11 positive 174:18 201:16 198:4 202:19 40:8,9,10 48:15 52:13 produce 149:12 229:19 predecessors 230:11 66:19 69:17 73:20,22 produced 142:5 possibility 181:6 predict 205:5 112:11 113:11 117:14 producing 203:19 possible 124:3 144:2 predictions 183:15 128:2 129:1 162:9 production 158:2 152:5 184:12 173:14 174:2,3,6 professional 92:15 post 232:17,18 predictives 201:13 primary-care 118:14 155:17 168:21 194:4 post-repatriation predictor 202:9 205:10 123:19 129:5 135:19 program 2:4,7 3:6 6:6,7 184:16 prefer 163:9,10 173:13 7:21 22:2,2,7,12 Post-Service 120:20 preferred 166:6 printed 102:9 32:17 34:10 35:1,10 post-traumatic 106:6 prepare 55:8 prior 7:18 66:1 202:13 35:10,22 37:14 41:1,3 postal 87:20 prepared 32:9 220:10 41:4 50:17,18 152:11 posthaste 216:9 prepares 32:5 priorities 28:15 38:22 179:4 182:7 185:3,5 posts 84:18 preparing 207:12 39:2,6 42:9 44:1 187:11,15,16 190:12 potential 10:16 presence 75:5 48:21 49:1,6 208:4 190:20 203:17 208:19 potentially 19:3 156:19 present 1:12 2:1 66:10 211:4 217:14,20,22 229:11 POW 4:20 5:8,11,13 103:1 109:20 110:17 prioritizing 109:10 231:9 238:13,17 6:17 10:15 18:3 26:16 135:1 199:13 209:22 priority 42:3 49:20 programs 30:19,20 27:2,3 50:17,18 51:4 223:4 80:14 147:9 37:21 38:12 42:11 52:12 54:14,16 63:1 presentation 119:4 prison 146:2 147:15,20 68:8 90:19 184:20,22
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reevaluated 17:2 renewed 53:1 residency 37:21 rewarding 27:6 reevaluation 70:7 repatriate 179:19 resident 38:8 Rhonda 2:4 3:7 6:14 reference 88:4 92:11,12 180:21 181:7 182:14 residents 30:11 52:3,14 62:2,3,7 63:1 references 126:3 191:10 196:4 resides 121:18 63:7 80:15 91:16 referencing 56:17 repatriated 178:14,18 residual 124:19 125:22 170:18 203:15 referrals 65:9 183:2 191:6 residuals 123:14 Rhonda's 80:9 referred 14:13 62:5 repatriates 179:22 resilience 197:12 ribbon 60:2,3 referring 203:8 180:7 184:6 186:2 resilient 196:7 rifle 119:20 reflexes 112:19 187:6,7,19,22 188:2 resolving 43:18 risk 194:14 202:3 refresher 165:21 188:19 190:20 192:11 resources 43:19 48:11 risks 149:13 regardless 105:12,16 193:16 196:13 200:5 48:14 73:14 RN 65:2 112:16 106:4,17 202:1 repatriation 129:17 respect 180:16 Road 1:10 229:15 182:2,22 185:9 respiratory 38:13 Robert 1:11,13 3:3,13 regards 28:7,8 207:11 188:17 199:9,13 responded 23:15 4:11 5:7 27:14 52:8 224:3,16 229:4 202:13 response 19:22 23:8 59:17 188:9 Regency 231:1 repent 19:7 25:20 216:14 222:12 robust 50:5 region 81:18 82:4,15 replace 9:3 224:12 rock 206:6 83:8 84:14,15 90:18 replaced 47:22 responses 25:7 role 27:5,6 64:12 65:8 121:5 replacement 47:20 Responsibilities 3:6 68:9 103:2,6 108:19 regional 1:10 2:8 5:18 214:14 responsibility 48:18 131:6 154:15 156:11 6:10 8:5 85:6 108:7 replacements 9:10 responsible 84:15 86:4 160:4 164:10 165:2 157:5 166:12,14,16 replacing 47:13 142:16 218:1 237:17 170:18 171:1,2,3 166:22 167:5 235:12 report 14:11 23:18 rest 7:7 193:19 roles 3:6 98:15 171:5 regions 12:13 65:20 114:18 123:16 restaurant 101:20 roll 214:10 registered 76:14 194:5 222:6 102:10 Rome 29:13 regretted 235:1 reported 120:10 restaurants 230:22 room 89:9 98:5 113:18 regular 27:21 38:9 40:3 reportedly 188:12 result 47:5 104:13 145:1 231:7 43:15 49:15 50:20 reports 14:7 23:1 24:6 149:3 176:13,18 roommate 59:6 126:20 218:19 99:16 120:16 122:5 200:21 204:1 Rooms 1:9 regularly 74:3 88:3 represent 7:8 240:9 results 41:12,19 123:16 root 239:18 regulation 95:22 96:6 representative 167:5 201:18 rotated 9:5 137:19 235:12 resumed 101:13 143:6 rotating 8:20 10:22 related 80:22 105:5 representatives 135:9 177:22 rotation 10:17 38:5 107:7 110:6 210:16 represented 178:19 résumés 214:17 215:4 relates 30:12 182:4 resurrect 81:17,20 round 215:20 relationship 15:19 request 100:16 108:4,6 resurrecting 85:12 route 211:8 225:10 53:18 208:22 218:18 116:6,8 119:5,13 retire 190:6 routine 32:8 219:2 222:18 225:6,7 retired 4:12,15 5:1,6,6 routinely 116:6 118:6 release 178:21 184:11 requested 108:5 167:3 5:11,13 6:8 24:19 Royston 122:15 released 108:18 146:2 requesting 86:14 53:10 90:6 121:11 Rucker 233:3 234:4 relied 122:12 requests 107:17 201:1 178:7,8 193:11 199:6 rule 95:22 96:16 192:8 relocating 69:1 require 17:16 retreated 120:5 rules 4:3 12:17 reluctance 172:2 required 64:4 70:15 retrospective 202:14 run 88:5 203:20 237:16 rely 41:10 108:21 110:13 115:8 204:12 running 50:10 73:15 remain 183:22 185:19 115:13 117:20 126:2 return 102:2 185:19 runways 18:21 remarks 225:12 127:2 140:16,22 197:4,9 198:12 rural 36:22 209:17 remarried 121:16 requirements 52:17 238:20,22 RVSRs 237:7 remember 4:22 8:10 148:20 returned 66:3 95:21 20:5 22:1 61:6 82:16 rescued 95:20 reunion 17:18 189:7 S 150:2 172:20 research 187:10,15,16 190:1 sacral 123:4 remembered 59:14 193:22 194:3,7,8,9 Rev 3:3 sacrificed 103:4 Remembrance 65:14 199:7 200:13,22 review 21:19 109:7 safety 66:2 reminder 15:2 134:1 201:5,6,11 228:14 110:9 111:9,10 114:1 Saginaw 81:10 reminders 117:9,17,21 researcher 204:5 114:7 122:6 124:13 salaries 200:11 118:4 128:5,13,14 researchers 193:9 161:17 236:13 salt 33:19 133:6,13 207:10 201:5 reviewed 161:7 201:1 same-day 40:7,8 reminding 161:17 researches 39:4 revised 137:9 212:5 San 54:15 83:15 95:10 renew 52:22 reserve 102:7 214:3 97:21 98:16 184:20
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4 4 3:3 4:28 241:6 40-year 205:5,11 4000 36:2 43-year 199:8 4300 31:9 50:5 45 31:12 37:21 4th 145:19
5 50 31:5 56:4 60:16 61:10 72:3,9 95:18 560 134:19 566 178:13 5th 206:15,17
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C E R T I F I C A T E
This is to certify that the foregoing transcript
In the matter of: Former Prisoners of War Advisory Committee
Before: US DVA
Date: 11-29-17
Place: Atlanta, GA was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.
------Court Reporter
Robert G. Certain Chairman VA Advisory Committee on Former POWs
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
+ + + + +
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON FORMER PRISONERS OF WAR
+ + + + +
MEETING
+ + + + +
THURSDAY NOVEMBER 30, 2017
+ + + + +
The Committee met in Training Rooms A- C, Atlanta Regional Benefits Office, 1700 Clairmont Road, Decatur, Georgia, at 9:00 a.m., Robert Certain, Chairman, presiding.
PRESENT
ROBERT CERTAIN, Chairman
HARRY CORRE, Member
TOM HANTON, Member
HAL KUSHNER, Member
JOSEPH MILLIGAN, Member
JEFF MOORE, Member
SHIRLEY QUARLES, Member
ELLIOTT SORTILLO, Member
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ALSO PRESENT
LESLIE WILLIAMS, Designated Federal Officer (DFO) E. MAQUEL MARSHALL, Alternate DFO PATRICK ZONDERVAN, Asst. Director, Atlanta Regional Benefits Office ANTHONY CROTSER, FPOW Program Coordinator, Atlanta RO FRANCISCO GONZALEZ, Assistant Director, Georgia & Marietta National Cemetery LAURINE CARSON, Acting Director, Policy and Procedures, VA Central Office STEPHEN M. BRANHAM, Lead Analyst, National Work Queue (by telephone) ANNA CRENSHAW, Assistant Director, National Outreach & Web LT. COL. JAMES WILLIAMS, USAF Retired JELESSA BURNEY, Program Specialist, Advisory Committee Management Office STACEY POLLACK, Director, Mental Health, VA Central Office RHONDA STURDIVANT, FPOW Program Advocate, Atlanta VAMC MARILYN CORRE
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CONTENTS
Open Session Rev. Robert Certain, Chairman...... 4
Overview of the Atlanta Regional Benefits Office Patrick Zondervan...... 4
Roles & Responsibility of the FPOW Program Coordinator Anthony Crotser...... 34
Networking Break ...... 63
Compensation Service Laurine Carson ...... 64
FPOW Case Management and Assignment Stephen M. Branham ...... 122
National Outreach and Program Management Anna Crenshaw...... 137
FPOW Forum-Speaker Introduction
Leslie Williams...... 165
FPOW Discussion Forum
Lt. Col. James Williams...... 177
Tour Atlanta Regional Benefits Office...... 189
Adjourn...... 214
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
2 9:03 a.m.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It is time to
4begin. Let's stand and say the Pledge of
5Allegiance to our flag or our nation.
6 (Pledge of Allegiance.)
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you.
8 And, we have adapted the agenda for
9the day, Leslie?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. Al
12 Bocchicchio was here yesterday and phoned me this
13 morning. He regrets he will not be able to be
14 here today, so he was on the agenda. He sent
15 Patrick Zondervan, the Assistant Deputy for the
16 Regional Office in his lieu -- not L-O-O, but L-
17 I-E-U.
18 (Laughter)
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: In lieu of him.
20 But, this -- but, please, welcome.
21 MR. ZONDERVAN: Thank you, thank you.
22 Good morning everyone.
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1 As stated before, my name is Patrick
2Zondervan. I'm the Assistant Director here at
3the Atlanta Regional Office.
4 I've been with the VA for about 17
5years. My last duty station was in San Diego
6where I had the pleasure to also work with the
7former POW groups there.
8 I'm sure you guys have heard of Frank
9Burger, he's one of my favorite guys. I spent a
10 lot of time with him and, you know, did some
11 really cool stuff, dedication of the POW statue
12 and Miramar Cemetery.
13 So, a little familiar with the group.
14 It's nice to finally meet you all here.
15 I will be speaking a little bit about
16 the Atlanta Regional Office this morning. I'm
17 not sure how much you were told by Al yesterday,
18 so if I repeat anything he said, I apologize in
19 advance.
20 But, we have a huge facility here. We
21 are one of the largest regional offices in the
22 nation. We have close to -- a little bit over
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1800 employees that work here.
2 And, there are close to 697,000
3Veterans in the State of Georgia that we serve.
4So, that is close to three and a half percent of
5the Veteran population in the United States of
6which 12.7 percent of Georgia Veterans are women
7Veterans.
8 So, here at the Atlanta Regional
9Office, we have multiple business lines. We have
10 the compensation business line. We have the home
11 loan guarantee business line. We also have the
12 vocational rehabilitation and employment business
13 line.
14 Prior -- a year ago, we had the
15 educational ARP, but that is no longer here. So,
16 now we have these three main business lines that
17 we focus on.
18 Of our 800 plus employees, 68 percent
19 of those employees are Veterans. So, we truly
20 are Veterans serving Veterans.
21 And, 52 percent of those employees are
22 disabled Veterans. So, I think they truly can
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1relate to the claims that we receive and the
2service that we provide.
3 If you can imagine, we have $2.5
4billion that we put out from the Georgia Office
5into the economy every year in benefits that are
6paid, $2.5 billion. So, just imagine the
7economic impact of that to the community. That's
8a huge impact.
9 In addition to the Regional Office
10 here in Decatur, we also have 12 out based
11 facilities. So, because we have a loan guarantee
12 division, they are a regional division and,
13 therefore, they cover the State of South
14 Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee and North
15 Carolina. So, we have four offices in those
16 states.
17 And then, we also have satellite
18 offices where we provide services throughout the
19 State of Georgia. We have eight different
20 offices in Augusta, Columbus, Georgina, Fort
21 Benning, Fort Gordon, Fort Stewart, Robins Air
22 Force Base, Savannah, Georgia and Tifton.
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1 So, as you can tell, most of those are
2with military installations where we work
3directly with servicemembers that are
4transitioning off of active duty and filing
5claims for disability benefits.
6 So, let me talk a little bit about the
7individual service lines. I mentioned previously
8that we have a Veterans Service Center to process
9those compensation claims.
10 So, the compensation claims are
11 processed as well as the dependents of their --
12 of the Veterans who file claims.
13 The compensation division is
14 responsible for processing disability claims for
15 disabilities incurred during active duty. So,
16 most of you probably already know that.
17 In addition to that, there is a
18 National Work Queue. Does anyone not know what
19 the National Work Queue is? I'm sure you've
20 heard of this before.
21 I'll briefly describe it. We
22 transformed, last year, I believe it was April 6,
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12016 where instead of only working the claims
2from Georgia Veterans that come here, we
3transformed to working claims nationally.
4 So, what that means is all claims that
5come into a big bucket and then they get
6distributed to all the regional offices in the
7United States based on the capacity that they
8have.
9 There is a rule that allows the
10 majority of our local claims to be processed
11 here, but we also get claims from buckets in
12 different offices.
13 And so, that basically how the
14 National Work Queue works. Now that we're
15 electronic and no longer in paper, we're able to
16 move work around where we have the resources to
17 process that work.
18 Vocational rehabilitation employment,
19 so that is the division that deals with
20 rehabilitation of servicemembers that are
21 entitled based on their disability benefits as
22 well as assisting Veterans in finding employment.
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1 So, they work with them through the
2barriers of employment, prepare them for suitable
3employment by sending them to school or providing
4other means for them to become employed and
5ultimately leading to them finding jobs and being
6productive members of society.
7 For Veterans that are service
8connected so severe that they cannot immediately
9consider employment, we also have an independent
10 living service which is offered to improve their
11 ability to live as independent as possible. So,
12 that service is also offered through the VR&E
13 division.
14 And, lastly, we have our loan
15 guarantee division. The VA home loan program
16 helps our Veterans obtain mortgage loans from
17 private lenders by guaranteeing a portion of the
18 loss against the loan.
19 So, we also provide services to the
20 home loan program to help our Veterans avoid
21 losing their homes in the event of a temporary
22 financial difficulty.
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1 And, lately, with the economy, we've
2seen quite a few of those.
3 The Atlanta Regional Office also
4serves as the regional loan center responsible
5for processing loans, construction, evaluations,
6special adaptive housing and other functions for
7the Veterans in the states that I previously
8mentioned, Tennessee, North Carolina, South
9Carolina and Georgia.
10 In addition, we also have a national
11 call center that is staffed by all of the
12 regional loan centers. So, we have a small
13 number of employees that dial in every day into
14 that call center to answer phone calls from
15 Veterans regarding home loan benefits.
16 I want to give you an update on some
17 of the new projects that are on the table and are
18 rolling out.
19 I don't know if you all have heard of
20 Decision Ready Claims or are familiar with that.
21 Prior to Decision Ready Claims, there was a
22 process called Fully Developed Claims where the
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1Veteran could provide everything for their claim
2except for the federal records and the exam.
3 So, the VA was still responsible for
4getting the exams scheduled and the federal
5records requested.
6 Well, under the Decision Ready Claims
7program, it's a little different. In addition to
8the Veteran providing everything that is needed
9to make a decision on their claim, the VSOs now
10 also have the ability to provide us with the exam
11 results and/or federal records so that the only
12 thing we really need to do is make a decision
13 based on all the evidence that is presented
14 rather than to have to go out and request
15 information.
16 It is a limited program. It started
17 rolling out in May of 2017. And, it is now, as
18 of September, it was put out nationwide. And,
19 the VSOs are big partners in this.
20 The claims are submitted through the
21 VSOs. It is limited, however, to increased
22 claims for disability evaluations.
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1 So, what that is, if you're already
2service connected for a disability and you are
3just simply asking for an increase or a
4reassessment, you're eligible to submit a
5Decision Ready Claim.
6 Obviously, claims that are brand new
7claims are not eligible at this time because
8there are other development actions that the VSOs
9current cannot perform.
10 Therefore, they have limited it to
11 reopened claims for an increase, but they are
12 still looking at expanding that program and
13 making it available to the other claims.
14 We started training the Atlanta
15 Regional Office employees for this Decision Ready
16 process in August and we went live on August
17 14th.
18 So, it's gone nationwide as of
19 September as I mentioned previously.
20 And, the objective is to have a claim
21 under the VRC process finished in 30 days or
22 less. So, as opposed to our goal of 125 days for
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1standard claims.
2 I want to talk a little bit about
3centralized intake. So, the centralized intake,
4as we went from paper files to electronic files,
5we put in place a process where everything is
6scanned digitally at centralized locations.
7 So, what that did is, it allowed us to
8reduce the amount of time that it takes to
9actually log a claim in the system and it gone.
10 So, if you can imagine back in the
11 days when you sent paper mail for a claim, it
12 would then arrive at the regional office and then
13 it would sit in a stack waiting for someone to
14 process it and put it into the system.
15 And, because of the inefficiency, I
16 think our average days was about 55 days at the
17 worst time from the time that the Veteran submits
18 it to the time that we're actually able to put it
19 in the system.
20 Well, now that we're electronic, we're
21 down to three and a half days. So, the claim is
22 submitted. It's sent to scanning and it
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1immediately shows up in our system and it's
2processed.
3 And we have avoided losing documents,
4as I'm sure a lot of you have heard about in the
5past where a Veteran would say, I submitted this
6and it's not in the system.
7 Well, cutting that time down to three
8and a half days is phenomenal and going to
9electronic is one of the best things that we ever
10 did. So, that was very beneficial.
11 There is also another new initiative
12 out there called Auto Establishment. So, as you
13 may or may not know, there are standardized VA
14 forms to submit claims.
15 In the past, you were able to write a
16 claim on anything really and just submit and
17 somebody had to decipher what it is you were
18 filing for and put it in the system.
19 Well, now we have a standardized form
20 that requires you to file specific form for a
21 reopened claim, for a new claim, for an appeal.
22 And, what this does is, it allows us
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1to use the -- or it allows us to scan the data.
2 So, since it's a standardized form,
3it'll read what the fields have populated with
4and it'll automatically actually establish the
5claim in the system without any human
6interaction.
7 So, that is another advance that we've
8done that is helping us, you know, of course, not
9all claims are established this way, but a good
10 majority of them are eligible for these if
11 they're on the standardized forms.
12 And, again, what that does is,
13 whenever you eliminate human interaction, it
14 reduces our errors and it reduces our timeliness
15 in getting these established.
16 So, this was fully launched in May of
17 2017. And, it does have the potential to
18 decrease our claims processing time by yet
19 another five days through the automation process.
20 So, paper extraction, we recently --
21 there's an initiative out there to eliminate all
22 of the paper files that remain at the regional
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1offices.
2 We had a file bank here with, I can't
3remember the exact number, but it was well over a
4100,000 claims files that were on paper. And,
5imagine, these are not all active claims.
6 You know, a Veteran normally comes in
7and files a claim. We make a decision and then
8we keep the paper file in the office for several
9years before it's eligible to be relocated to St.
10 Louis where they store the records permanently.
11 So, what they've done, because we are
12 electronic and paperless, if the Veteran came
13 back in and filed a claim, each time that
14 happened, if they had a paper file, we would then
15 have to send that file to the scanning facility,
16 wait for it to be uploaded before we could
17 proceed with the claim.
18 So, they came in and they had a
19 schedule and they're going office by office and
20 they're extracting all the paper files and
21 sending them to the scanning facility to be
22 uploaded.
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1 So, we had our paper extraction
2completed in June of 2017. So, we don't have
3paper files on station here any longer with the
4exception of maybe one or two that are
5transferred but then we send them off to
6scanning, so we're not housing them, at least for
7the compensation files.
8 We also had a large number of the VR&E
9files that were extracted and sent in for
10 scanning.
11 So, what we're doing with that is
12 looking at the additional savings that are
13 realized by not having to pay for storage, for
14 space and for paper across the nation and saving
15 the Agency additional dollars.
16 So, as of to date, they've extracted
17 2.6 million inactive files from 40 regional
18 offices across the nation. That was as of
19 September, which will lead to about $200 million
20 in office space and paper storage costs.
21 So, you can imagine some regional
22 offices have internal storage space and some have
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1external storage space where they're renting
2facilities to keep these files.
3 So, eliminating that cost for renting
4facilities and repurposing the space inside the
5regional offices for additional claims processes
6is just a benefit to us and to the taxpayers.
7 VASRD, so what is VASRD stand for?
8It's the VA Ratings Schedule, or Schedule for
9Rating Disabilities. I'm sure you all are
10 familiar with that, 38 CFR talks about what
11 percentage of disability is assigned for specific
12 disabilities.
13 So, they are looking -- the VA is
14 looking at updating 50 different body systems on
15 the ratings schedule of disabilities. Some of
16 those include gynecological and breast
17 disabilities, eye, mental, musculoskeletal,
18 infectious diseases, ENT or respiratory diseases,
19 neurological -- I have trouble with this word --
20 MEMBER KUSHNER: Genitourinary.
21 MR. ZONDERVAN: Thank you.
22 Cardio --
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1 MEMBER KUSHNER: Everybody should know
2that.
3 MR. ZONDERVAN: I know what it is, I
4just can't pronounce it.
5 MEMBER KUSHNER: Anybody who has to
6deal with it anyway.
7 MR. ZONDERVAN: Cardio, digestive
8systems, dental, oral, hematology, endocrine and
9skin conditions. So, all those are being looked
10 at and the ratings schedule is being considered
11 for updates.
12 Now, we don't have any additional
13 information as to whether they're going to
14 increase or decrease the percentages of
15 disability. So, they're just evaluating that to
16 better reflect the current technology and the
17 modern medicine that's available to remedy those
18 conditions.
19 And, what it'll do is when once the
20 schedule is updated, it'll allow for our
21 processors to make more consistent decisions and
22 evaluate the claims easier.
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1 And, the appeals modernization, so I'm
2sure you all have heard a lot about that. There
3has been a lot of talk in the news about the
4appeals modernization.
5 Historically, the Veterans Appeals
6Improvement Modernization Act of 2017 was signed
7into law on August 23rd of this year. And, it is
8a very significant statutory change that affects
9the VA. It's one of the most significant in the
10 last decade.
11 It resulted from collaboration amongst
12 the VA, VSOs, other stakeholders who, together,
13 designed a new comprehensive process that is more
14 timely, it is simple, transparent and more fair.
15 So, what it does is, it streamlines
16 the appeals process and establishes three
17 processing lanes.
18 As part of the bill, the VA is
19 required to submit a report to Congress detailing
20 the implementation plan for the new appeals
21 framework within 90 days of the enactment which
22 was November, or this month of this year.
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1 So, the implementation framework is
2within 18 months of the enactment. And, the
3enactment, what that does is it puts it out to
4February of 2019 for the final implementation.
5 However, in preparation of that, we
6have launched a rapid appeals modernization
7program. So, what that does is, it gives
8Veterans the option to opt into this new process
9earlier than versus having to wait for 2019.
10 So, what the VA is doing is they are
11 sending invitations monthly to a certain number
12 of Veterans based on the date of claim. They're
13 targeting those with the oldest appeals and they
14 will be continuing to do that between November
15 17th and February 2019, ultimately, leading to
16 everybody having -- or all Veterans that had
17 appeals pending having had an opportunity to make
18 an election by the due date of 2019.
19 It is voluntary. Veterans are highly
20 encouraged to participate but it is not required.
21 So, briefly, what that does is,
22 traditionally, when you disagree with a rating
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1decision, you would fine a notice of disagreement
2and then a decision here would be reviewed
3locally and they would either grant it or deny it
4or issue a statement of the case if they couldn't
5fully grant it or partially grant it.
6 Then, you would have to perfect your
7appeal by filing another form, a Form 9. And
8then, again, it would be here and we would either
9issue another statement of the case, if we can't
10 grant it. Or, opt for the Veteran to continue or
11 advance his appeal to the Board of Veterans
12 Appeals.
13 That is a very long, drawn out process
14 and it's been averaging, I think, three to five
15 years which is not good.
16 And so, that's part of the reason why
17 the new appeals process was put in place.
18 So, what the Veterans will get is a
19 process that will take no more than a year versus
20 the three to give years or longer.
21 And, they have an option when they
22 file -- when they disagree, they can either file
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1a higher level review or they can ask for -- they
2can file a supplemental claim with additional
3evidence or they can follow the traditional
4appeals process but it would then go to the Board
5rather than go through the multiple steps of the
6previous program.
7 So, those are some of the updates on
8the new programs that are out there and the new
9initiatives.
10 Specific to former POW claims data, I
11 want to share with you all nationwide in 2017, or
12 fiscal year 2017, we have completed 1,255 former
13 POW claims nationwide. Thirty of those were
14 completed here in the State of Georgia.
15 And, seven claims were completed by
16 the Atlanta RO. The difference being, those 30
17 were Georgia Veterans but only 7 of those were
18 processed in this office as we had the National
19 Work Queue. So, Georgia Veterans claims could be
20 processed in a different office.
21 PARTICIPANT: I'm sorry, I couldn't
22 hear the last two sentences you said. You backed
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1away. Would you --
2 MR. ZONDERVAN: Sure.
3 PARTICIPANT: -- say the last two
4sentences again?
5 MR. ZONDERVAN: Absolutely.
6 There are 30 claims that were
7processed for Georgia Veterans, but only 7 of
8those were processed in the State of Georgia
9because of the National Work Queue, some Georgia
10 Veterans claims were processed elsewhere.
11 In addition to the number of claims
12 pending, we have as of the end of October, there
13 were 162 former POW claims pending and 5 of those
14 are for Georgia Veterans and 2 of those are
15 pending at the Atlanta Regional Office right now.
16 So, that is the information I wanted
17 to share with you today. We also have Anthony
18 Crotser who is going to be talking to you a
19 little bit more specific about some of the
20 outreach and the events that do here as he is the
21 former POW Coordinator.
22 But, before I step down, I would ask
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1if you have any questions, to please share your
2questions and I'll do my best to answer at this
3time.
4 Yes, sir?
5 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Joe Milligan.
6 Did I understand you correctly, you
7said that the standard claims are handled within
8120 days now?
9 MR. ZONDERVAN: Yes, so --
10 MEMBER MILLIGAN: What is the standard
11 claim?
12 MR. ZONDERVAN: So, the goal is to
13 process all claims for rating disabilities within
14 125 days or less.
15 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Okay.
16 MR. ZONDERVAN: So, that's any claim
17 that a Veteran files to get service connection
18 for a disability.
19 MEMBER MILLIGAN: What does process
20 mean? Does that mean they've got a decision by
21 then?
22 MR. ZONDERVAN: Yes, that's from
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1beginning to the end. So, as soon as we
2acknowledge receipt of your claim, that goes from
3the day it's received by the VA to the date that
4you get a final decision, that's 125 days or
5less. And, right now, we're averaging about, I
6want to 96 days on average to complete a claim
7nationwide.
8 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Well, I ask that
9question because I have an acquaintance in San
10 Antonio that far, far exceeds that kind of time
11 line.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: From the initial
13 claim or an appeal?
14 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Both.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Because the appeals
16 takes -- it can take years.
17 MR. ZONDERVAN: Much, much longer,
18 yes. Appeals can take three to five years at the
19 local level and then add on additional time at
20 VBA.
21 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
22 MR. ZONDERVAN: I just want to clarify
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1--
2 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes, I didn't come
3here to intercede on anybody's part and I'm not
4going to. It's just that this person filed a
5claim, it took a year and a half to get a
6decision. And, that decision was, it was denied
7entirely.
8 He appealed it, at that point in time,
9the VA called him for a physical. His question
10 was, why didn't they call me in for a physical in
11 the beginning if I needed one?
12 Bottom line, he was eventually awarded
13 60 percent disability. That took two years from
14 the start. And, he got a letter that said there
15 was one more medical issue that was being
16 examined and that was for radiation exposure.
17 And, he was told it'll take a year for
18 you to get a decision on that.
19 MR. ZONDERVAN: So, I don't know if
20 the radiation claim is on appeal, but radiation
21 claims can take a lot longer because we have to
22 develop for specific evidence to show that they
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1were exposed to radiation and sometimes that does
2push it out.
3 The number that I gave you, that's our
4target and that's an average. So, when I say 96
5days, that's an average. There are some
6outliers.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Okay.
8 MR. ZONDERVAN: And, traditionally, a
9lot of times, we hear from Veterans, well, it's
10 taking a lot longer than that.
11 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
12 MR. ZONDERVAN: But then, when we look
13 at the details, it turns out that they filed it,
14 we made a decision, it was a denial. And so,
15 they pursued it continually, either reopened it a
16 couple times or appealed it and they count from
17 the day they first file it until they get the,
18 you know, the result that they're looking for.
19 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
20 MR. ZONDERVAN: Which is not the 125
21 days that I'm referring to.
22 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
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1 MR. ZONDERVAN: You know, and
2traditionally, what I see a lot is when Veterans
3file claims and they appeal it, in the appeals
4process, they add additional evidence that wasn't
5provided when the claim was initially filed.
6 So, when the claim is filed, our
7decision is based on the merits of what's in the
8file at that time.
9 Often times, if we are not able to get
10 evidence, we have to deny the claim because we
11 can't get it. If the evidence becomes available
12 at a later date, we may be able to grant it,
13 which is what it sounds like in the case that
14 you're referring to.
15 So, that kind of explains the time
16 difference between those.
17 MEMBER MILLIGAN: By the way, I do
18 know that he's filed everything online.
19 MR. ZONDERVAN: Okay, well, good.
20 MEMBER MILLIGAN: And, that part of
21 the process is going very well.
22 MR. ZONDERVAN: Fantastic.
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1 MEMBER MILLIGAN: That's been a big
2improvement for sure.
3 MR. ZONDERVAN: Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: One of my concerns
5is that when people file their own claims rather
6than using a VSO, they frequently make mistakes.
7 And so, it's important, even though
8you can file online, I would always recommend
9that you use a VSO to work through the claim and
10 to check your work before it's file to make sure
11 that you haven't omitted a line or made some
12 other mistake that will throw a monkey wrench
13 into it.
14 So, while it's cognitively a good
15 thing for everybody to be able to do their own
16 work, it's really not good advice, in my opinion.
17 MR. ZONDERVAN: I absolutely agree,
18 Robert. As a Veteran, I've gone through that
19 process myself and what I'll tell you is we can't
20 force anyone to use their POA or VSO. We can
21 certainly advocate that they do use them.
22 The difference being, if you file it
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1on your own, when the VA receives it, they're
2just going to correspond back with you to tell
3you we've received your claim here's what we
4still need.
5 The difference is, if you go to a VSO
6first and say, here's what I have can you help me
7look at it, let me know if there's anything else
8I need. They can walk you through, you know, in
9a face to face meeting, everything that you need,
10 get everything together and then help you submit
11 the claim.
12 You don't get that same interaction
13 with our claims processors because they just
14 receive it electronically, review it and then
15 correspond with you electronically.
16 So, there's definitely a benefit to
17 using the VSOs and they are of no cost to you.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And, they can also
19 file an intent to file which starts the clock for
20 when the benefits begin once it's approved.
21 MR. ZONDERVAN: Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Whereas, if we file
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1it on our on with missing data, then that doesn't
2have the same effect.
3 So, it's better to wait on the front
4end while somebody helps you put it together in a
5complete package than it is to try to do it
6yourself.
7 MR. ZONDERVAN: Absolutely.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: In my opinion.
9 MR. ZONDERVAN: Yes, sir. I mean you
10 wouldn't go out and, you know, do something
11 unless you are educated on the process. So, I
12 would, you know --
13 (Simultaneous speaking)
14 MR. ZONDERVAN: We've got lots of
15 people doing that out there, you know.
16 Let's say you want to be in real
17 estate, you're not going to go out there and go
18 without getting, you know, certified as a real
19 estate agent.
20 And, it's kind of, you know, what I'm
21 saying is, it's a cumbersome process to file
22 claims. It's very detailed and so there's
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1absolute benefit to talking to one of the VSOs or
2working with them to help you through that
3process.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right.
5 MS. CARSON: My name is Laurine Carson
6from CO, and I'll be talking a little bit more
7about the DRC program, some of the enhancements.
8 Right now, we average in between six
9and eight days to get sit down on those claims
10 after the VSOs submit that into our systems.
11 So, yes, some benefits do -- it's a
12 little slow going, but you never fully develop
13 things when we started and also very slow growing
14 early. But, once we got everything in place, it
15 winds up being a very great system and we have to
16 receive almost 65 percent of it.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
18 Let's move to Mr. Crotser, please?
19 MR. ZONDERVAN: Thank y'all very much.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you.
21 (Applause)
22 MR. CROTSER: Good morning everyone.
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1Can you hear me okay?
2 As it was mentioned, my name is
3Anthony Crotser. I'm the former Prisoner of War
4Coordinator here for the Atlanta Regional Office.
5 I'd like to start by thanking everyone
6for their service to our country and the
7sacrifices you made in doing so.
8 Like I said, I am the former Prisoner
9of War Coordinator here. My primary role is a
10 Rating Quality Review Specialist. I'm part of
11 the review team, but I do wear multiple hats,
12 including the POW Coordinator.
13 Just a little about me and my
14 background so everyone's aware of where I came
15 from and how I started here.
16 I was hired as a Rating Specialist, as
17 they say, off the street, in June 2010.
18 In July 2012, we moved to segmented
19 lanes here in Atlanta and I was assigned to the
20 Special Operations Team.
21 As part of the Special Operations
22 Team, at that point in time, I did all the FPOW
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1claims on there. So, I accepted the role of FPOW
2Coordinator in December 2013.
3 And, I attended FPOW training in
4December 2013 in Oklahoma City in the same month.
5 And then, I continued on the Special
6Operations Team until that went away this past
7July and we transitioned back into having a
8rating board separate from the segmented lanes
9where we had VSRs and raters on the same team.
10 And, I was -- then I received a
11 promotion to Rating Quality Review Specialist on
12 the Quality Review Team in August 2017.
13 However, I'm continuing to wear the
14 FPOW Coordinator hat in this role as well.
15 So, my primary role as FPOW
16 Coordinator, I serve as the primary contact at
17 the Regional Office for the FPOW and/or his
18 family.
19 I do find that probably 60 to 708
20 percent of the time, I'm actually speaking to the
21 FPOW's spouse instead of the FPOW himself, it
22 tends to work out that way.
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1 And, in this case, I can -- a lot of
2times I'll receive phone calls that were
3transferred to me from either downstairs with our
4VSOs, some other employee across the station
5received my contact -- or they passed on my
6contact information, something along those lines
7or it could be a Veteran I worked with previously
8who has questions about a pending claim or some
9disability compensation question.
10 I also will try to have the
11 flexibility for scheduled appointments as well as
12 walk in meetings with FPOWs. This is kind of
13 rare, you don't see a lot of these, but I am
14 available if a FPOW walks in downstairs has
15 questions, they know I'm available to be -- to
16 meet with them in a meeting room somewhere and
17 discuss specifics to that.
18 My primary role is to guide the FPOW
19 claim through the claims process and ensure
20 timely processing.
21 So, once I note that the FPOW claim
22 has come into the system, I'll -- I keep that in
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1a separate tracker and then I'm constantly
2checking on it to make sure that it's being moved
3like it's supposed to.
4 This also includes making initial
5phone calls to the FPOW if I haven't talked with
6them before, introducing myself, explaining to
7them what's going to happen over the case over
8the next few days for it to be processed, explain
9to them if I feel there's a need for an
10 examination, I'll tell them that they should be
11 expecting to hear from the hospital in regards to
12 an exam.
13 I, obviously, ask them if they have
14 any questions. I find out about any dependency
15 benefits, if there's anything missing from the
16 claim or potential medical records we could
17 receive, all of that I try to handle in that
18 first initial phone call to make sure that we
19 ease any anxiety or fears that might come from
20 filing a claim.
21 And then, another, I guess my second,
22 I would say, primary role is to review all the
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1FPOW ratings for correctness.
2 So, I don't -- when I was on the
3rating board, I didn't actually do the ratings.
4We assigned them to another rater for them to do
5the ratings. Then, I would review it as the FPOW
6Coordinator to ensure that everything was done
7correctly.
8 And then, it would go to the
9management, Veterans Service Center management
10 for them to do a final third review. All at
11 once, all the rating has received all three of
12 signatures, then it would be finalized.
13 So, I spend a lot of time, once we get
14 to that point where it's ready for the rating,
15 then guiding the rater that's rating it and then
16 reviewing it for correctness.
17 And then, finally, I assist
18 development VSRs in verifying FPOW status for
19 unconfirmed FPOW Veterans.
20 We don't have as many of those now.
21 I know back in 2013 when I first started, we did
22 see quite a few of those where a Veteran would
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1check the FPOW box on the 526 claims form and, if
2they weren't already flashed in our system as an
3FPOW, then we would work through the process of
4gathering the personnel records, ensuring that we
5had everything we need to make a decision on
6whether or not we can verify the Veteran's FPOW
7status.
8 And, if not, then it goes to central
9office for a member of their staff to determine.
10 Next slide?
11 All right, just a little with the
12 claims cycle. I know y'all are familiar with the
13 process, but just so -- as a refresher, first,
14 we'll receive the claim from a variety of
15 sources.
16 FPOW claims are logged in a little
17 unique from the standpoint that they can
18 traditionally, like you said, file them
19 electronically. They can submit them in paper
20 through the old snail mail system. We do get
21 them from VSOs downstairs.
22 However, a majority of our claims that
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1we receive now, I actually receive directly from
2the hospital, usually via email from the FPOW
3advocate that they created a relationship with
4and she recognizes there's a disability that
5could be compensated, her and I will work
6directly.
7 So, it never goes through your
8traditional claims process, it would come
9directly to me. I send it to our development
10 VSR. We upload it to their electronic claims
11 folder.
12 We assessed an EP and we start the
13 process that way.
14 Occasionally, in the past, I've also
15 spoken directly with an FPOW or their family
16 member. I've received a claim directly from them
17 to my email or potentially fax.
18 They usually will feel more
19 comfortable by doing it that way versus sending
20 it in themselves and it going to somewhere they
21 have no clue where. So, they'll send it directly
22 to me and I'll handle it on my end.
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1 After we receive the claim and it's
2been assessed, we do an initial development sent
3to our VSR, our Veteran Service Representative.
4 We have one development VSR that is
5set up currently to do all of the FPOW claims in
6addition to others since there aren't a ton
7pending. But, she focuses specifically. I know
8she's very detailed. She's worked here for 15,
920 plus years. So, she knows the system inside
10 and out.
11 She's a -- I consider her kind of the
12 Sherlock Holmes type VSR. If there's something
13 in the file, she's going to find it that we need,
14 especially when it comes to FPOW verification of
15 status.
16 She'll continue follow up development.
17 If we do all the initial development, we send out
18 for an exam, she'll verify that the exam when it
19 comes back, that it's uploaded and we have
20 everything we need for it to be sent to a rating
21 specialist for ratings.
22 And, along the same lines, I have a
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1rater that I worked with that does the -- all the
2ratings. So, again, she can focus specifically
3on the FPOWs. She's familiar with presumptive.
4 And then, once she completes her draft
5rating, it's sent to me for review. Again, like
6I said earlier, it will be followed by a review
7from the service center manager or the assistant
8service center manager, depending on who is
9available for review.
10 It goes back to the rater to finalize
11 the rating. Once we have all three of those
12 signatures, and then the award is promulgated and
13 authorized by a post-development VSR and a
14 notification letter will be sent to the Veteran.
15 And, usually, once we get the rating
16 finalized, I'll contact the Veteran again and let
17 them know that we've got a rating finalized,
18 you'll receive the notification letter in the
19 coming days, let me know if you have any
20 questions once you receive it and then we go from
21 there.
22 All right, some of our -- some of my
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1partners that I work with have proven to be truly
2beneficial.
3 I know I -- I believe you met with Ms.
4Sturdivant yesterday who is that FPOW advocate at
5VAMC Atlanta. Her counterpart at VAMC Dublin,
6Georgia, which, for those of you not familiar
7with Georgia, that's right in the heart central
8of Georgia, is Helen Donner.
9 I've worked with both of them. A
10 majority of our FPOW, as do most Veterans, I
11 should say, but live around Atlanta, metro
12 Atlanta, so they work with Ms. Sturdivant.
13 But, both of them have been
14 tremendously vital in helping me gather evidence
15 and various things that we need.
16 I've -- they've been a vital resource
17 for me when an FPOW or a member of the family
18 have questions that are outside of the scope of
19 compensation or pension benefits. They'll call
20 me and they'll ask about nursing home benefits
21 and I'm not super familiar with that since I
22 primarily work in the Regional Office side so I
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1can then either get the question answered by one
2of these two ladies and they then forward it on
3to the FPOW themselves.
4 But, I know that normally, one
5question leads to another so I'll usually contact
6them to have them contact the FPOW or the family
7member to work directly with them.
8 Also, the FPOW advocates have been
9very helpful in helping me get clarification
10 regarding medical records or medical
11 examinations.
12 Where I'm reviewing VAMC records where
13 a Veteran's been receiving treatment and I'm --
14 it's unclear as to the interpretation of what it
15 is -- the diagnosis may be or symptoms of the
16 disability, a lot of times they have a little bit
17 more of an in to talk with the doctors and nurses
18 over there than I do.
19 So, they've been helpful with
20 gathering that information as well. I'll send
21 them an email, ask what I need to ask and then
22 they can find out the answer and get it back to
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1me.
2 And, also, there's been times where
3I'll receive a claim, I've not spoken with the
4FPOW before. I'll contact them and I can tell
5that they're being very hesitant to share
6information with me.
7 So, if I've noted in their file that
8they have a relationship with one of the FPOW
9advocates, a lot of time, I will then email the
10 FPOW advocate the information I need and then
11 have them ask those questions.
12 Just because I realize there's a level
13 of trust that they have with those people and
14 it's often times easier for them to speak with
15 the FPOW to speak directly to the advocate that
16 they've been working with versus me calling them
17 cold and not knowing who I am.
18 So, they've been very, very helpful in
19 developing these claims and working the claims.
20 And then, the -- I think you've met --
21 I do know you met with Dr. Ambardekar yesterday
22 who is our C&P clinician across the street at
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1VAMC Atlanta who does all the examinations for
2us.
3 Again, she's been very helpful. Her
4and I have developed a good working relationship.
5Once we send an examination request over to the
6hospital, I make sure that I email them -- email
7her -- email Dr. Ambardekar directly so she knows
8it's coming so she can go ahead and schedule it
9and block of the allotted time she needs in her
10 schedule before the request actually even lands
11 in their inbox over there. She already knows
12 it's coming.
13 And then, also, I'll try to provide
14 all the information I can up front as far as what
15 medical records are available and what needs to
16 be reviewed, anything along those lines.
17 Another thing that's been helpful
18 which she may have talked with you about, so
19 pardon me if this is duplicate information, but
20 she also has the ability to do ACE examinations.
21 So, as our FPOW population ages, a lot
22 of them are not likely or are not able to attend
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1an examination due to being two hours away or
2just difficulty of leaving of leaving the home.
3 So, I'll try to gather as much medical
4records we can via -- it could be private, it
5could be the hospital -- VA hospital records, any
6records we have for her to then do an ACE
7examination and complete the disability benefits
8questionnaire solely off of the medical records.
9 And then, perhaps maybe a phone call
10 to the Veteran or a spouse, how ever she can
11 gather that information.
12 So, we've tried to ease the burden
13 there where we can still get the questions
14 answered that we need to adequately rate the
15 case. But, also ease the burden on the Veteran.
16 And then, working with FPOW
17 coordinators from other Regional Offices. Mr.
18 Zondervan said before me, now that we're in this
19 National Work Queue environment, I'll talk a
20 little bit more about that in a second, but we're
21 working hard to make these --
22 Since these cases -- these claims are
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1going -- working down and they can drop in
2anybody's bucket. A Veteran that lives in
3Georgia may not actually have a case worked here
4in Georgia.
5 So, I may receive a phone call from an
6FPOW Coordinator from the Waco Regional Office in
7Texas and they may say, well, we just received a
8case that was for Veteran Joe Smith and he lives
9in Atlanta, Georgia and he, you know, could you
10 reach out to him since you live locally to
11 discuss his claim. So that way, they can then
12 handle it there since I'm the local person.
13 And then, a lot of times when I
14 contact, I think I talked to someone in the
15 Michigan Regional Office in Detroit recently for
16 a claim that we worked that the Veteran lived in
17 Michigan.
18 And, I contacted her and said that the
19 Veteran's name is so and so and she goes, oh yes,
20 Mr. Smith, I know him. I talk to him all the
21 time.
22 So, it was easier for her to get the
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1information we needed versus me then, again, cold
2calling.
3 So, working with the coordinators from
4other Regional Offices has been really vital.
5 And then, finally, back to our local
6FPOW team, as I mentioned, Hope Caldwell Foster
7is our Development VSR and then Nicole Grimes is
8our rating specialist, she'll rate all the cases
9FPOWs.
10 And then, finally, our Service Center
11 manager and our assistant service center managers
12 are useful in the fact that they have to do the
13 final approval of the ratings.
14 All right, so local data that I ran,
15 this data is going to be skewed because of the
16 fact that we are in a national working
17 environment. This only goes off of what was
18 actually cleared here in Atlanta, meaning we got
19 the last step and did the notification letter.
20 So, we probably worked more. We did
21 more ratings or we may have done more or less,
22 depending it just -- once it got to that final
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1step where it's cleared or which is what actually
2counts for our station, that's what was showing
3is five claims completed in 2016, six in 2017.
4 And, at the time of the creation of
5this PowerPoint, there was one pending which we
6received a couple weeks ago and, as Mr. Zondervan
7said, we have received a second one just within
8the last week.
9 And, finally, I'm going to end my
10 little presentation here on a couple of
11 challenges that I have as the coordinator.
12 And, as I mentioned, the National Work
13 Queue. The National Work Queue has been a great
14 implementation from the general Veteran
15 population standpoint in the fact that we can
16 work a lot of claims faster and quicker.
17 We can move things around the country
18 where there's availability between Regional
19 Offices.
20 However, as the FPOW Coordinator, it's
21 provided a slight challenge the standpoint that
22 it is a little bit harder when I'm working and
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1I've developed a relationship with a specific
2FPOW Veteran and then the next day, that claim
3gets sent to be worked in California.
4 And so, it's a little bit frustrating
5that we don't have control of the few cases we
6have if they're -- if it's a Georgia case that
7stays in Georgia, that would obviously be my
8preference, but it's not the environment we're
9working in.
10 Also, the FPOW claims are not easily
11 identified by employees in the system. I don't
12 know if any of y'all have actually worked in or
13 seen VBMS, the electronic claims folder that we
14 have.
15 There is a section where they talk
16 about flashes. There's a section where they have
17 -- and when a rater or a VSR pulls up their work
18 and they have their cases that are assigned to
19 them for the day, there is an indicator in the
20 far side that says the priority level.
21 If you aren't really paying attention
22 to that and you cover over it, it'll tell you
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1it's an FPOW case. But, we've had some cases
2slip through the cracks and get rated without the
3-- without any indication from the VSR or the
4rater that the case was actually an FPOW case.
5 So, it gets processed and then on the
6back end, it may get noticed later. But, so I
7wish in my perfect world, when FPOW cases open,
8there would be some type of warning, fireworks or
9something. So that way, the person working the
10 case would know it's an FPOW case, it just needs
11 to be routed to their correct person to work or I
12 need to be paying special attention to this or
13 any presumptives that the Veteran would be
14 eligible for.
15 I'll give you an example of this. We
16 had a claim a couple months ago that was denied
17 for an FPOW that was denied the aid and
18 attendance benefit.
19 And, apparently, it kind of worked its
20 way through the VSR, the rater and then it
21 actually got reviewed by the quality review staff
22 because it was a special compensation claim.
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1 And, it never was noticed that it was
2an FPOW claim. It was -- the claim was denied
3and then I actually, thankfully, thankful for the
4relationship, within two days got an email from
5the FPOW advocate across the street, Ms.
6Sturdivant and she said why was this claim denied
7it was an FPOW claim for aid and attendance.
8 And, I said, I had no clue it was on
9the books. So, we -- I went back and looked at
10 the claim which turned out we could create the
11 benefits so we were able to go back. I spoke
12 with the people that made the decision. They
13 completely missed that it was an FPOW claim,
14 again, because you have to basically read the
15 fine print to determine it is.
16 And then, we were able to go back,
17 grant the benefit. I called the Veteran and we
18 worked.
19 Yes, thankfully, with that one, we
20 were able to handle it within a couple weeks of
21 the decision thanks to the advocate's email.
22 And then, finally, my last challenge,
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1and I've mentioned this before on the -- one of
2your, I forget what they're called, but the
3special monthly compensation criteria that's
4outlined by law for the aid and attendance
5benefit, my completely personally opinion is that
6I wish when an FPOW files for aid and attendance
7that we could -- there was some type of leniency
8to that as there are with presumptive
9disabilities that we could just grant the
10 benefit.
11 If rates are hard to determine, if we
12 have to deny it because the Veteran doesn't meet
13 the criteria outlined by law which is they have
14 to have a single 100 percent disability or they
15 have to have a combined 100 percent disability
16 when all the disabilities stem from the same
17 medical etiology, so diabetes and all the
18 secondary disability can combine to 100 percent.
19 If they don't meet that criteria, then
20 unfortunately, they're not eligible. So, that's,
21 again, my little personal pet peeve, but that's -
22 -
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1 MEMBER KUSHNER: Well, should the
2criteria be revised then?
3 MR. CROTSER: I would love for it to
4be from an FPOW perspective.
5 If they aren't eligible to be
6considered for extra schedule or consideration,
7which we have done before, but the strict special
8monthly compensation, especially since it is an
9aging population and some of them do require
10 care.
11 So, we do everything we can in our
12 powers to stretch the medical evidence in a
13 positive way, go back to an examiner and say, are
14 you sure this isn't, you know, that we -- this
15 isn't due to service net disability or that the
16 heart disability isn't -- is just the extreme
17 severity of the case.
18 MS. CARSON: So, if I may, so the
19 criteria for aid and attendance is in need of the
20 care of another person because you're a service
21 disabilities are so severe that they require the
22 need of another person for the disability.
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1 Now, the housebound benefits, because
2people are confined to their homes because of
3their disabilities.
4 But, there are quite a few criteria
5that go along with the determination for aid and
6attendance. And, it includes not just diseases
7from the same etiology, it also includes loss of
8use of certain limbs, blindness, all of those
9criteria are listed there.
10 They are codified in the statute that
11 is codified by Congress. It does not -- it's not
12 based on your period of service, it is based on
13 your disabling effects of your disability.
14 And so, and that's the criteria that
15 is used for those special monthly compensation
16 programs.
17 If a person's disabilities are so
18 severe that they need the constant care of a
19 person and they are confined to their homes, then
20 they would get a higher level of aid and
21 attendance or special monthly compensation and
22 their past compensation benefit based on those
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1issues to include whether or not they need
2skilled nursing care.
3 So, there is spectrum that goes with
4that disability benefit and it is based on
5disabling effects of the disability.
6 So, you cannot ambulate, if you walk
7with -- if you have to walk with prosthetics or
8you have to walk with a cane or have some
9difficulty like that.
10 If you've lost use of certain limbs,
11 either a single limb or double limbs, whether
12 you're upper or lower limbs, you can qualify for
13 a certain levels of aid and attendance.
14 If you have a total 100 percent from
15 the disease etiology like you talked about
16 diabetes and you have a loss of use that's at a
17 certain level or more, you could also qualify aid
18 and attendance.
19 And, it's written out in the law
20 exactly how we apply those disability benefits,
21 but it's not unique to FPOWs or Vietnam Veterans
22 or Gulf War Veterans. It's across the board
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1based on disabling effects of the disability.
2 Sorry, my name is Laurine Carson, for
3the record and I am the Acting Deputy Director
4from Central Office and I am the Acting Deputy
5for Policy and Procedures. So, I have the staff
6that has the legislation.
7 MR. CROTSER: That is all correct. I
8was just merely saying that I would advocate for
9it again, including personal that if FPOWs had
10 some form of their own statute with regards to
11 aid and attendance benefits versus separate from
12 the general population of Veterans.
13 Like I said, we try everything we can
14 to make sure that we squeeze them. The problem
15 we have is, unfortunately, you'll have a Veteran
16 that received a rating 30 years ago at 20
17 percent. By the time they get to us, they
18 already have advanced dementia, they're to the
19 point where they can't attend an examination or
20 we don't -- when we're trying to rate off of the
21 medical records and if there was some type of
22 easing in special monthly compensation rules,
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1then it would help them get benefits quicker,
2faster and make sure that their benefits are
3available.
4 That ends my presentation. I am
5willing and ready to take any questions.
6 Yes, sir?
7 MEMBER MOORE: Jeff Moore.
8 I have a two part question. Is there
9a well-organized interaction between you and
10 other coordinators across the country?
11 You get the word somehow that the work
12 queue has sent this and you get this coordinator
13 way out someplace else taking over. And, you
14 know, are you able to reach out very quickly and
15 understand?
16 And, the second part of the question
17 is, before the work queue, we're going back X
18 number of years, how many claims at that time
19 would have been processed by your office?
20 And, if the work queue went away for
21 FPOWs, would you be able to handle that workflow
22 now?
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1 MR. CROTSER: Right.
2 We definitely would be able to handle
3that workflow now because, as you saw, there are
4so few claims coming through.
5 Prior to going into the National Work
6Queue and electronic claims processing, we would
7-- we had a system called BOR which we still use
8a little bit on the side.
9 But, I could run a report every week
10 and it would tell me exactly how many were
11 pending. And, I never had more than three or
12 four cases pending at a time.
13 So, I have just kept a separate track
14 as they came in and ran a report at least once a
15 week, sometimes twice. Once one pops up and
16 since we're on the Special Operations Team, the
17 desk next to mine was the rater that rated FPOW
18 cases and then three down was the VSR that did
19 the development.
20 So, we all were there together and so
21 we could constantly communicate on those teams.
22 In regards to your first part of the
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1question, once I recognize that a claim is
2pending and it's a Georgia Veteran, I make sure I
3keep that file separate on my -- file number, I
4should say, in a spreadsheet.
5 And then, I can constantly look at it.
6So, when I -- if I, you know, I look at it
7tomorrow and I see that it was sent to the Waco
8Regional Office, then we can -- I can contact the
9Waco Coordinator and say, hey, this was dropped
10 in your bucket. This is what's going on with
11 this case.
12 We have on the C&P website or on the
13 internet, there's a listing of all the
14 coordinators that they try to keep as up to date
15 as possible. So, I can contact them.
16 But, I don't get any type of automatic
17 notification or anything like that when it's been
18 dropped somewhere. I have to track it myself.
19 So, if I don't know it exists, then I don't. I
20 wouldn't know it exists after that point.
21 Any other questions?
22 MEMBER MOORE: Thank you.
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1 MR. CROTSER: You're welcome.
2 Again, thank you all for your service
3and hope you enjoy Atlanta and your stay here.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you.
5 (Applause)
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: We have Gonzalez.
7 What?
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Take a break?
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Take a break?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: He's not here.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: He's not here?
12 Okay.
13 We'll take a 10 or 15 minute break.
14 Fifteen minute break. Be back in your seats at a
15 quarter after.
16 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
17 went off the record at 9:58 a.m. and resumed at
18 10:19 a.m.)
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, if we could
20 take our seats and get back in order.
21 Laurine Carson, the Acting Deputy
22 Director of Policy and Procedures that we've
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1heard from briefly already.
2 Do you have anything to add?
3 MS. CARSON: Oh yes.
4 (Laughter)
5 MS. CARSON: Absolutely.
6 (Laughter)
7 MS. CARSON: Good morning.
8 As stated, my name is Laurine Carson
9and I just want to tell you a little bit about
10 me. I started with the Department of Veteran
11 Affairs in 1987 as a GS-3 clerk typist back when
12 they still took the Civil Service Exam and I
13 could take good tests.
14 I won't say I could type, but I could
15 take good tests at the time.
16 And, I actually worked in four
17 different offices, four states. I started in
18 Newark, New Jersey Regional Office and I moved
19 then to the Atlanta Regional Office. I was here
20 for about two and a half years as the Assistant
21 Veteran Service Center manager.
22 And then, I also was the Service
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1Center manager at the Detroit Regional Office for
2about five years.
3 And then, I've been in Central Office
4and I've been there since 2011. I have been a
5Chief of the Policy, Procedures, Quality, Site
6Visits and training staff in my Central Office
7tenure.
8 And, Pension and Fiduciary Service, I
9was there when you had the infamous hearings on
10 pension poachers and how people were taking
11 advantage of our vulnerable population of
12 Veterans because they were older and they were in
13 need of pension benefits, aid and attendance, as
14 you heard of as well.
15 And, I helped to work through some of
16 those policies that were going on at that time.
17 And compensation service in 2015, I
18 was the Assistant Director for Policy, so all of
19 the legislation and regulations that come out to
20 include 38 CFR Part 3 which deals with the
21 administrative regulations.
22 And then, you have Part 4 which is the
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1VA ratings schedule for disabilities.
2 A year ago, I took on two teams
3because someone retired and I actually started
4supervising the procedure staff as well in
5addition to the policy staff. So, I had nine
6Central Office staff that were reporting to me
7dealing with all of the benefits, procedural
8guidance and regulatory guidance that pertains to
9disability compensation.
10 So, there are lots of initiatives
11 going on in Central Office. And, right now,
12 we're in the process of trying to create
13 efficiency within Comp Service, Compensation
14 Service by one of the things that I worked with
15 my Director to do was to merge policy and
16 procedure together so there's more realigned at
17 the hand off of work activity more seamless
18 internally. And, we've been doing a lot of
19 that.
20 I know you heard about the National
21 Work Queue, and I just wanted to take a minute
22 just to say that, part of that was about trying
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1to create the right efficiency to get claims done
2in the 21st century.
3 We have moved our paper-based claims
4folders, the C file, we moved away from those and
5we've made it all electronic. So, there's
6electronic Veterans records.
7 It allows us to house our records in
8once centralized location. And, as we do -- we
9still receive some paper and, of course, the
10 appeals process is still in the paper format.
11 We try to scan that stuff in and
12 upload it to those records so that we keep those
13 records together.
14 I will say that they talked about
15 Decision Ready Claims earlier today and they
16 talked about claims will increase only. And,
17 many of the claims that were done were not
18 specific to the specialized, prioritized workload
19 such as POW workload.
20 But, I want to tell you that, this
21 December, we will be adding that workload in.
22 The benefits of adding that workload
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1in to Decision Ready and should a person go
2through their Veterans Service organization and
3want to have their claim filed through this
4program, is, number one, a person can file --
5make an intent to file and today and still
6preserve their date to gather all of the
7information, their records, to include any
8federal records that would help them with their
9claim.
10 And then, number two, when the VSO
11 looks at that -- those records and they determine
12 that those records are sufficient for an
13 examination to be ordered, the VSO can directly
14 request their VA order and exam.
15 And, we don't have to go through a
16 second full review of all of that evidence and
17 returning that something is missing, we general
18 will order that exam.
19 Number three, those claims, once they
20 come into VA with a completed exam, and it takes
21 about 21 days to do the exam, they're getting
22 done in 8.3 days average.
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1 Now, I will tell you this program, as
2they stated, was launched in May as a concept.
3But, it wasn't rolled out fully to the nation
4until September. So, as of today, we have 369
5claims that have been done in 8.3 days.
6 So, if we do this like we did the
7fully developed claims process from pilot to
8national rollout, then we anticipate that
9workload will certainly be handled more quickly.
10 The other thing that we're not trying
11 to sacrifice is quality. So, we are working in
12 VBA to ensure that we are building systems to
13 look at quality differently and to ensure that we
14 are accurately processing claims.
15 We have a new quality management
16 system that is a nationwide system that allows us
17 to have employees who are looking at claims while
18 they're in process. And, in process reviews
19 means that, those claims get established and
20 controlled.
21 Then they go through initial
22 development and then they go through some times a
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1second follow up would become a supplemental
2development period. That's when we have to go
3out different at multiple times to get records.
4 And then, they go through the Ready
5for Decision and decision making stage.
6 At any time in those processes, we can
7do what's called an in process review. Why
8that's important is because sometimes we are
9finding that the quality is not necessarily in a
10 decision, how it's made, but is there somebody at
11 the beginning of the stages or in the middle
12 somewhere in developing it didn't get everything
13 that was needed to make a favorable decision or
14 to make the proper decision.
15 So, we're trying to do something
16 called in process reviews as well as continue
17 with our national star program which looks at the
18 overall quality of the claim once it's completed.
19 So, we are looking at quality on both
20 fronts.
21 I think Patrick mentioned the VA
22 Schedule for Rating Disability, and that's 38 CFR
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1Part 4.
2 We've been working on modernizing the
3rating schedule. It is in 1945 rating schedule
4and, as a holistic enterprise wide approach to
5trying to modernize the disability claims
6process.
7 VA has not done that since 1945 in any
8meaningful way. We have updated certain portions
9of the rating schedule based on changes in TBI
10 and changes in peripheral neuropathy or PTSD,
11 we've done issue based changes.
12 But, we've not done a -- the whole
13 full swath of the rating schedule to look at
14 making those changes.
15 On average, when we make a regulatory
16 change, it takes between 18 and 24 months to get
17 it through a process of regulation. Regulation
18 takes a long time.
19 However, we have a time line and we
20 are tentatively scheduled to finish all of the 14
21 body systems. And, I will say, yes, there are 15
22 if you're a medical personnel, 15 body systems.
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1But, respiratory and ENT are combined in the
2rating schedule.
3 So, but we are in the process of
4getting those done and our date right now is
5March 2019.
6 Inherent with an electronic system and
7trying to process things more electronically is
8the fact that we also will need to look at some
9of the other ways that we do work.
10 Such as we have our Veterans Benefits
11 Management System, VBMS, where we actually
12 process claims now.
13 We also have the Disability Benefits
14 Questionnaires that we use to try to provide the
15 forensic examination that mimics the C&P clinical
16 examination that you can take to your private
17 physicians and have them fill out as well.
18 So, with that, when we start looking
19 at how to change the rating schedule, the
20 regulation, we also have to look at the
21 enterprise wide change so that when we put it
22 before the rater today that they can use the
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1current systems that have been modernized in
2order to process it to include getting the
3Disability Benefit Questionnaire information in
4an electronic format that it kind of pre-
5populates the rating decision.
6 And, that's going to help with the
7efficiency and the accuracy of exams.
8 So, there's still a lot of places in
9the law where it requires us to use judgment and
10 the rating special has to use their judgment to
11 weigh the evidence.
12 But, there are quite a few things in
13 the regulations that are truly putting in what
14 the medical specialist has told us about the
15 disability, the degree of range of motion, et
16 cetera, that could probably be plugged into a
17 formula and spit out a suggested evaluation
18 amount.
19 And, that's the kind of stuff that
20 we're working on now. It's going to take a
21 couple of iterations and a couple of years to
22 move from our former system which is pretty
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1antiquated. We're still -- we call those like
2legacy systems to move towards the systems that
3we currently use today.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: MS-DOS, right?
5 MS. CARSON: Yes.
6 Okay, so, if you were here, MS-DOS,
7that's funny because I used to be also, in my VA
8career, one time, one of those stepping stone to
9get to where I am today, I actually was a
10 computer specialist. So, I learned how to build
11 computers at one time.
12 I didn't stay in that field a lot --
13 a long time, but it was interesting.
14 So, back when VA had the system, they
15 had a system called Target, that was really a DOS
16 based system. They went to a few other systems
17 in there.
18 But, believe it or not, like the
19 Benefits Delivery Network, I don't know if you
20 ever heard of BDN before, but BDN, believe it or
21 not, there's some things that we still do today,
22 and that system is from the '90s, we still do
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1today that still uses that system.
2 So, while we built out BDN and we are
3using more efficient technology today, we still
4have a lot of things in our BDN system that have
5not retired from that system and a lot of our
6education benefits still use that platform to do
7work.
8 But, they are also supposed to be
9migrating to the newer systems.
10 And, I'll say that, you know, right
11 now, we're not in Windows 10 in our offices yet.
12 So, we have a long way to go. It takes a couple
13 years for us to get built updates across the
14 Agency.
15 So, another thing that we are doing,
16 and I thought it was important to let you know
17 about is, we have a lot of our separating
18 servicemembers now who are going through what we
19 call our pre-discharge program.
20 And, we also have those that are
21 seriously injured who also go through a
22 disability examination at separation program.
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1 We are working on trying to improve
2upon how we transition Veterans. So, we're
3trying to do a continuity of operations from the
4time that a person is ready for discharge between
5their 180 or 90 days before discharge until the
6time that they exit the military to ensure that
7VA is meeting them at that place, educating them
8better, telling them about benefits, hopefully
9getting them examinations.
10 We are starting this thing called
11 separation health examinations which is supposed
12 to be an examination that can be used both by DoD
13 and by VBA to process claims.
14 We try to do these assessments up
15 front, learn about disabilities and potentially
16 do what's called a day after discharge decision.
17 So, if you come through and you're 180
18 days out and you have disabilities, you
19 potentially could get a decision and have a
20 rating when you walk out the door.
21 And then, you would come back for your
22 routine scheduled examinations and also should
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1you have new disabilities or things get worse.
2 So, we're sort of like working in
3quadrants right now with how we process claims.
4So, yes, we have the National Work Queue, but we
5are finding that when we were at 600,000 claims
6with 300,000 backlog, when we went to the
7National Work Queue, there were swabs of claims
8that we could just put a swing -- swing a bat at
9and we could actually process those because it
10 was called low hanging fruit in our system.
11 Meaning that there were things that we
12 couldn't see in the paper world and now we can
13 see in the National Work Queue world that we are
14 able to get done faster and work them out of the
15 system.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So --
17 MS. CARSON: Yes?
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So the scanned
19 documents are all word searchable, right?
20 MS. CARSON: They are working on
21 what's called optical -- it's an optical reader
22 that is supposed to be able to be searchable and
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1word searchable.
2 So, all of your -- all of the pre-
3medical records are word searchable. Anything
4that we put in electronically in our system is
5now word searchable.
6 The challenge that we have right now
7is that, if you take and write in your
8handwriting on this and you put it in, it's not
9necessarily word searchable because not
10 everybody's handwriting is going to be in a block
11 format that's necessary.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You're kidding?
13 MS. CARSON: You're funny.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I'm sorry.
15 MS. CARSON: But, I will say that
16 they're working on that. They're working on
17 better ways to interact. Right now, benefits in
18 the set portal, everything is word searchable
19 that comes through there, of course, because it's
20 going to be entered directly into the system.
21 But, we're working on other ways to do
22 that. Right now, we have scanning vendors who,
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1anything that's not word searchable, they're
2still uploading it and getting it into a folder
3and getting it tagged so that it gets into the
4right filing process.
5 So, that if it is not word searchable,
6then it's -- but it becomes desktop viewable.
7And, until we get to the place where we have
8everything that's able to be converted into word
9searchable documents, we, you know, we'll still
10 be doing some of that.
11 The appeals world is still a paper
12 driven world. Part of the primary reason is
13 because, when those cases go before the courts,
14 it has -- the records right now have to be in the
15 format in which it was filed, makes sense for
16 that process, but that's under the current
17 appeals process.
18 Under the new appeals process, they
19 told you about the ramp which is our -- we're
20 trying to sort of pilot and do a proof of concept
21 of how these three lanes for appeals will work.
22 And, I don't know how many of you know
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1about the three lanes. Did you get a briefing
2from appeals prior to today?
3 Okay, so let me just tell you,
4basically, our current appeals process, you get a
5decision from us within one year of that
6decision, you file what's called a Notice of
7Disagreement.
8 Then, we send you back a statement of
9the case. The statement of the case basically
10 repeats everything that we said in the original
11 decision, unless there was an error and it gives
12 you all the laws, rules and regulations that we
13 used to make that decision. That's what a
14 statement of the case does.
15 Then you might have additional
16 evidence that you send and say, hey, but I didn't
17 get to give you this.
18 And then, from there, we look at that
19 evidence again. And then, we might give you
20 what's called a supplement to statement of the
21 case. That process can go on infinitum and never
22 really get you to a perfected appeal.
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1 But, once we get everything from you
2and we give you 60 days and you add nothing or
3you don't have a hearing, then we go into
4perfecting your appeal and you would have to fill
5out a form and say, hey, yes, I want to go
6forward with my appeal.
7 Then, that's processed, goes and you
8get a person certifies the appeals record and
9then that appeal goes to a docket number with the
10 Board of Veterans Appeals if we have not changed
11 our decision and you still want to pursue it.
12 And, that's that long holding pattern
13 that you generally will stay in until such time
14 that you either had a travel board hearing or
15 some other type of board hearing, if you
16 requested it so that then they could actually
17 process your appeal.
18 So, right now, yes, there is a long
19 wait time in processing appeals.
20 Last year, as Patrick said, Congress
21 enacted -- we introduced legislation, worked on
22 it really hard but then Congress enacted
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1legislation to include an appeals management
2office that is looking at trying to streamline
3the appeals process and the benefits into what we
4are saying are three lanes.
5 So, the first lane for appeals is a
6re-review of the decision that was made. So, if
7you get a decision from VBA about your
8disabilities, in that first lane, we call that a
9higher level review lane.
10 It's something like the DRO de novo
11 review, but it takes the place of de novo review
12 sort of. But, in the higher level review lane,
13 somebody with a higher level with that expertise
14 will re-review that appeals -- that decision that
15 was made and determine -- make a determination as
16 to whether or not a new decision is warranted.
17 In that process, you don't submit new
18 evidence, it's just based on what's in the record
19 at the time the decision was made.
20 If you have additional evidence, you
21 can go to what's called the supplemental lane.
22 That means, you submitted some supplemental
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1evidence that you want considered in addition to
2what was of record.
3 And, you may also -- I can't remember
4when the informal hearings happen, but I think
5you can have an informal hearing to present
6evidence.
7 And, in that lane, we might determine
8that you need a new exam. We might determine
9some other things, but then we render a decision
10 and you get a different -- a new decision based
11 on any supplemental evidence that you submit.
12 The third lane is really a legal lane
13 that basically says, I've got a decision from VA.
14 I don't agree with that decision. I want it to
15 go to the Board of Veterans Appeals directly.
16 It goes to the Board. The Board still
17 will have a hearing process. Okay? But, in that
18 lane, I don't think the Board is going to receive
19 any additional evidence. They're going to do the
20 hearing and then it goes -- if you disagree, it
21 goes to the Court of Veterans Appeals.
22 MEMBER KUSHNER: It goes where?
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1 MS. CARSON: Court of Veterans
2Appeals. Court of Appeals for Veterans, because
3I know their name changed along the way, too.
4 So, what I would say is that it might
5be a good topic to get on your next meeting so
6that you can get those folks who are doing that
7work to come and share that information with you.
8I think it's very interesting.
9 And so, when you talk about how fast
10 we're doing claims today, which Patrick told you
11 we're approximately 96 days to work the
12 compensation claims, and you talk about appeals,
13 you're really talking about the distinction in
14 those two workloads.
15 And, we're trying our best to continue
16 to improve on the regular claims that in a
17 traditional workload while also trying to
18 modernize the appeals process which is even older
19 than the rating schedule.
20 Yes?
21 MEMBER KUSHNER: During these appeals
22 process and does the Veteran have an advocate
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1from within the VA who helps him or her negotiate
2these bureaucratic interstices?
3 MS. CARSON: So, I would say that
4there's a lot of outreach going on right now with
5the new process. But, in regular appeals
6process, VA -- there are VA employees who also
7can -- always have been able to help in our
8public contact team with these claims.
9 A lot of Veterans who have a VSO, they
10 usually use their VSO advocates. And, in
11 appeals, attorneys are able to give the in the
12 process as well.
13 MEMBER KUSHNER: Right, civilian
14 attorneys who are not associated with the VA?
15 MS. CARSON: Huh?
16 MEMBER KUSHNER: Civilian attorneys
17 who are not associated with the VA who can --
18 MS. CARSON: Yes.
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: Can the Veteran have
20 an advocate that -- so, the attorney can present
21 his case to the proper authority?
22 MS. CARSON: Yes.
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1 And, what we have at every single
2Regional Office is an attorney coordinator that
3works with them to ensure that these are within
4the prescribe law requirements.
5 We do have our, as I said, our public
6contact teams, decision review officers are sort
7of quasi advocates as they process the claims
8because they are the ones who get to hear the
9claims as de novo or as new claims for Veterans.
10 And, they generally have hearings with them.
11 We do have people who, if you made a
12 decision on a claim and person wants a hearing on
13 that particular appeal issue, you have the
14 hearing with the person who made that decision.
15 So, you get to hear from the Veteran,
16 you get to have face to face. But, most -- in
17 our processes even now, we still -- our VSOs are
18 really strong advocates and we partner with them
19 frequently.
20 We actually -- we provide them with
21 training on all our claims and benefits that's
22 similar -- it's called TRIP training, and it's
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1training that's similar to the training that we
2give other employees and challenge in other
3things too.
4 So, yes, so I think that that might be
5a good topic to -- for you guys to learn more
6about and to see how that's working.
7 And then, I heard somebody say
8earlier, the young man who was speaking, he said
9he if he had his druthers, he would want to have
10 legislation that addressed aid and attendance.
11 And, I used to be a former POW
12 Coordinator as well. I would tell you, that was
13 one of my best jobs. It was one where I received
14 thank you cards from a Veteran's surviving spouse
15 who I still have those cards in my desk, they
16 kind of keep me remembering that I'm doing
17 worthwhile work today.
18 I understand his passion. I
19 understand his desire. So, what I told him to do
20 is to write me up what he's thinking about
21 because that's my staff, too, legislation is my
22 staff as well.
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1 What I would say is that, if there's
2anything -- we are in the season, and I want you
3to start thinking about it now so that when I get
4to the end, you can tell me anything that you
5have hot.
6 We are in the season of what we call
7legislative proposal season. We are -- my staff
8is making proposals to Congress about changes to
9legislation.
10 If you guys can think of anything that
11 you think we need to start considering to propose
12 to Congress, my folks will research it. They
13 will get the words around it and they will make a
14 legislative proposal on behalf of any POW
15 legislation that you think we need to get enacted
16 by -- to help you guys and to get Congress
17 support for our benefits and stuff.
18 So, I asked him to send his up. Give
19 me some -- just some words, it doesn't have to
20 give me all the words, I have folks who do that
21 and they will look up the legal -- the laws that
22 are pertinent to it and they will look up ways
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1that it might be feasible for Congress to do it.
2 Right now, whenever there's -- so our
3legislative season runs from now, generally
4around March, April, we submit a full package
5from VBA up to Congress as to -- up to our
6headquarters as to what we want to propose and
7then, from there, it goes to the Office of
8Management and Budget and they look at how much
9it's going to cost and all that great stuff.
10 MEMBER KUSHNER: Whatever we're voting
11 in Congress.
12 MS. CARSON: It's just that, you know,
13 for me, I think that seeing an NCO and in this
14 position is really a combination of all of the
15 jobs I've held as a claims clerk in the claims
16 process, a VSR in the claims process and rater, a
17 supervisor of the triage development and rating
18 teams, they have been working on the appeals team
19 as well and then running the Regional Office,
20 this is really a combination of all of that in my
21 career.
22 And, I'm just really delighted to be
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1able to present some of things to Congress and to
2sort of help with the legislation. But, we need
3help, too, because we don't have all the ideas.
4 There's something you might be burning
5and you might could think of something burning
6that you might be thinking of that you think
7should be a law for POWs. Please let me know,
8please let me know.
9 Yes?
10 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Joe Milligan.
11 Repeat when your legislative window
12 is.
13 MS. CARSON: So, my legislative window
14 starts now because we start -- we actually start
15 the six month saying, hey, anybody have ideas
16 which we want ideas.
17 So, it starts now and they're going to
18 have a call up of legislation at the of January
19 and then we go through that whole process of
20 vetting those things out.
21 If you have something that you're
22 thinking about that you want me to consider, you
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1just want to write me a paragraph or two or if
2you know where the law is, just tell me where it
3is.
4 Send it to Leslie as the DFO and
5Leslie can get it to me.
6 If you could send me something between
7now and January, mid-January, that would be great
8because I can get some people to look at it and
9see if we can draft it.
10 If we can't do it this year, it still
11 is something -- we get two chances at it each
12 year. So, we start legislation at the initial
13 onset and then around the summer, you'll hear --
14 they'll ask one more legislation.
15 If there's anything that is an off
16 cycle legislation, so that's the cycle, we can do
17 off cycle legislation as well.
18 So, we'll try to flesh it out, maybe
19 call you and try to talk a little bit through it
20 and see how it goes.
21 But, I have folks who can do that.
22 Okay? It's just a thought because I know it was
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1raised earlier.
2 And then, they already gave you the
3numbers of the 1,255 that POW claims that were
4done in 2017 and that we have 162 currently
5pending.
6 One of the things that Patrick said is
7that he talked about the 125 day goal. And, we
8still have some cases that we're trying to get
9under 125 days.
10 Our average days to complete claims
11 last year was 96 days. Right now, our claims
12 inventory -- our claims, I don't want to call it
13 our backlog, our claims that are over that are
14 about 77,000 and we're trying to drive that down
15 to get under 60,000 of those and we're going to
16 keep working down those claims as we continue to
17 work new claims.
18 I will tell you that your claims --
19 FPOW claims are in the highest priority category
20 of claims and no matter where they are done,
21 they're being done in a timely manner. None of
22 them are pending for more than 30 days.
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1 And, even if you have one that might
2be pending, it might be pending because it needs
3additional federal records from some source.
4But, we've been working really hard and
5diligently on those priority categories.
6 And, those get pushed out on a daily
7basis through the National Work Queue. They all
8do not go to the state in which the Veteran may
9reside, but they do get processed. And every
10 state still retains a POW Coordinator who can be
11 called by any of the other persons within the VBA
12 to help them with the nuances -- the local
13 nuances of that particular state.
14 So, that's what I wanted to share with
15 you today. I really want to take some time to
16 answer any questions that you may have or
17 anything you want to know about the -- I call
18 them the legs, the legs and the procedural
19 guidance. So, there's the legislation,
20 regulations and the procedural guidance.
21 Yes?
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All the so-called
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1backlog, the ones over your maximum goal, what's
2the hang up? What's the biggest headache
3included in those?
4 MS. CARSON: It's the biggest
5challenging area of the work -- so, I talked
6about the cycle times.
7 You have the control time, the average
8time to develop and you have this thing called
9the supplemental time. That means, if we made an
10 initial attempt to develop the claim and we
11 didn't get a response, or we got a response that
12 requires us to go out again.
13 That section, that's called
14 supplemental development, that section of going
15 back out two or three times for federal records
16 and federal records, in particular, is the hang
17 up.
18 That includes the service treatment
19 records, the personnel files, the verifying the
20 information that is needed to support the event,
21 time and place of a disability.
22 And, it just is a longer process. We
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1are working with DoD on trying to speed those
2records without -- let's just have a routine
3feeding of those records in to our system so that
4when I get a claim before me, the Veteran -- it
5being me having to request that information, that
6that information -- I'm able to go into a DoD
7type system that allows me to pull that
8information down on that claim.
9 I don't know, but I've been to the
10 Pentagon a couple times in the past two years.
11 And, I will tell you that, there a whole lot of
12 people to talk to whenever you're trying to do
13 something with federal records.
14 Because you've got to call all the
15 branches saying -- you can't forget the Coast
16 Guard that's not always when you have a Pentagon
17 meeting, it's not always at the table.
18 And, you've got to think about the
19 National Guard and the Reserves because we have
20 active members of those as well.
21 So, as we're trying to coordinate this
22 effort, I think that DoD is improving upon its
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1coordination of effort as well. But, we still
2have a long way to go.
3 So, we stay at the table. A lot of it
4is saying, here's what we need in order for us to
5deal with the Veterans and make that seamless
6transition.
7 And then, I don't -- I learned about
8this thing called the DoDi which is very
9interesting. It's normally at the Department of
10 Defense instrument that use to determine what
11 guidance, policy and procedure goes in and if you
12 don't have your stuff in 24 months before you
13 want one of those things issued, you really could
14 be waiting a long time to get a tweak to it.
15 So, but that's no different than our
16 process as well. The rule making process is a
17 24-month long process. And, I'm on -- I'm not a
18 -- so I get a lot of people saying, hey, let's
19 build an app -- an application on an iPhone to
20 take care of this. And, I'm like, but the law
21 says this.
22 And so, we're trying to like pull this
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1stuff together. It takes a long time. We're
2still in a regulatory process that mandates that
3we go through certain types of concurrences that
4we have budget appropriations agreed and we
5recert and then stakeholders and member of
6Congress in order to get it done.
7 It's a long process, but me having
8been through the entire claims process, it's
9actually a very enlightening process in trying to
10 create efficiency within that process is my
11 challenge to constantly try to do.
12 I am also going to have a new team
13 this year which is going to be -- once I do a
14 regulation -- one legislation is enacted, then we
15 go through the regulatory process. Then we write
16 the procedural guidance, the training guidance
17 and all of the things that's going to be
18 applicable to the field.
19 I'm setting up a team that's going to
20 be a rules implementation team which is going to
21 take a -- and we're trying to take an enterprise
22 wide approach to change in policy and procedures.
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1 And, I think it's a team that's very
2necessary because we've got to continue to
3innovate and continue to think of ways to not
4just do it faster, but to do it with the right
5quality according to the law and to do it with
6the right compassion.
7 And, to also do it efficiently enough
8to take -- to be cognizant of taxpayer dollars
9and how we deliver services.
10 So, it's a lot, it's a huge job, but
11 we're really trying to make a better effort at
12 trying to meet the needs of Veterans.
13 Yes?
14 MEMBER MOORE: Jeff Moore.
15 We just heard that the FPOW claims
16 have highest priority. But, we also heard
17 earlier that there's really no efficient routine
18 flagging of the claim when it comes through.
19 Is there a way to flag them so that
20 they can get highest priority?
21 MS. CARSON: Yes, you know, I want to
22 take that one back. I heard that said --
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1 MEMBER MOORE: Yes.
2 MS. CARSON: -- I want to take that
3because I want to talk to the National Work Queue
4folks. I do know it has a flash. Is that -- so,
5my question is, I know it has a flash, I know the
6flash is on there and I know the flash works.
7But are people using the flash?
8 MEMBER MOORE: Yes.
9 MS. CARSON: So, I have to -- I have
10 more to follow. I did talk to him about that. I
11 think that the issue of whether the flash is
12 efficient versus whether people are complying
13 with the policy to do that one first, that's two
14 different issues.
15 MEMBER MOORE: Sure.
16 MS. CARSON: So, I can handle all the
17 policy and make the policy beautiful, but if
18 people do not follow the policy, then we have a
19 lack of efficiency.
20 So, I want to take that back. I want
21 to research and I want to get some information
22 back to Leslie.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, thank you.
2 Leslie?
3 MS. WILLIAMS: So, Leslie Williams.
4 We do have NWQ who's going to briefing
5today.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
7 MS. CARSON: That's a question for
8NWQ.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, as well as it is
10 a committee recommendation.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Is that this NWQ?
12 MS. WILLIAMS: No, Stephen Branham,
13 but also it's one of our committee
14 recommendations that's waiting to be signed off
15 on.
16 So, just to job everyone's memory, the
17 question that was asked was, one, having the FPOW
18 claims anchored to the station and then also,
19 two, mandating the flash.
20 So, if that recommendation is signed
21 off on, then it will be implemented review on it.
22 MS. CARSON: Yes, I think that those
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1questions are really time to reask.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, anything
3else, yes?
4 MEMBER SORTILLO: Just a comment.
5Today is my 67th anniversary being a POW.
6 MS. CARSON: Thank you for your
7service.
8 MEMBER SORTILLO: And it's still not
9on my records.
10 MS. CARSON: It's not on your records?
11 MEMBER SORTILLO: It's not on my
12 records.
13 MS. CARSON: Okay, I want to give you
14 my card. I want to be able to get you some
15 information.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's
17 significantly a problem, I think, with Korean War
18 veterans, POWs. Yeah, they were treated in a
19 shameful manner, I mean, in a manner different
20 from certainly Vietnam era and later, but the
21 Korean War was a difficult time and we didn't do
22 our best job with them.
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1 MS. CARSON: It was. I want to just
2tell you before I leave my last story. So I
3worked for the VA as I told you, and I come from
4-- I have 11. There's 11 of us in my family.
5All of our names begin with an L. We're all one
6year apart. I don't know why my parents did
7that. But I will tell you working
8for the VA, I worked for the VA at least 10 years
9before something told me to sit down and talk to
10 my father about his service. I knew he had
11 served. My father came back from the service.
12 My father went and got some correspondence
13 courses, became an electronic engineer and worked
14 for GE.
15 And I knew we could never stand at the
16 foot of the bed by his feet if he was sleeping
17 because you would get in trouble, like you
18 couldn't just walk in his room and stand at the
19 bed. We had to keep the lights dimmed.
20 You had all of these things you had to
21 do, but I never associated it with VA benefits
22 and I'm in the system educated about the benefits
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1giving outreach to everybody else about the
2benefits. Something told me to talk to him.
3 He kept talking about these headaches
4and he said, "You know, I'm missing a piece,"
5because he had a dent in his skull. He said,
6"I'm missing a piece of my skull," and I was
7like, "You are?" He's like, "Yeah, when I was in
8Africa," and he started telling me about the
9Korean War, and he started telling about he was
10 shot and grazed, and they had to do emergency
11 surgery and they pulled a piece, removed a piece
12 of skull.
13 He did not get out for disability, but
14 he stayed in the hospital for a while, and then
15 he went back and he continued on, and they took a
16 piece of his skull out. Well, he had headaches
17 my whole life, debilitating headaches where you
18 couldn't turn a light on. You couldn't whisper
19 in a room with him.
20 And almost 10 years into a job that I
21 know very, very well, and I did not make the
22 association or the connection. I think that we
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1still have a lot of work to do in the area of
2outreach, in the area of making people
3comfortable enough to speak about what happened
4in the service so that we can give them the
5benefits that they deserve.
6 I said from a personal level, I'm very
7passionate about it, but I also said from a level
8acknowledging that I hope I can help with your
9situation and be able to help you today with
10 getting that recognition because it's important.
11 You earned it, and we need to validate
12 it, okay? So I tell you that because I think
13 that even us employees, we are so close to home
14 when it comes to serving veterans and what we
15 have to do. Right now, our workforce is almost
16 half, more than half veterans.
17 So we have a lot of work to do and we
18 know that, and we're still thinking of ways to
19 try to improve that, but certainly it hits home
20 when you say that something isn't recognized
21 because even I didn't recognize my own dad's
22 situation in my home and stuff.
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1 And he told me the whole story and
2then I felt so proud that that was my father. I
3was already proud of him, but it was like wow.
4I'm serving all of these people and I'm always
5talking about I'm so passionate for veterans, and
6then it's in my own backyard, so I think that we
7have a lot to learn from that.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you so much
9for your time and -
10 MEMBER QUARLES: I have a question,
11 Bob.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: What? Okay, make
13 it quick.
14 MEMBER QUARLES: I have a question,
15 Shirley Quarles. Yesterday, there was a question
16 raised about what qualifies a service member to
17 be an FPOW related to captivity duration, so
18 someone said three years. Someone said three
19 hours. Someone said three days, and so can you
20 share some insight on that?
21 MS. CARSON: Yes, let me look up the
22 criteria, and at some break time, I will get that
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1information for you. I don't want to misspeak on
2it, but it is not three years.
3 MEMBER QUARLES: Three hours or three
4days.
5 MS. CARSON: But I want to make sure
6that I get you the right information and stuff,
7and I used to know it, but I do not today. I
8know it's changed. Like I know that when I was
9doing claims before, you had to have -- even the
10 DIC portion of that has changed where you don't
11 have to wait the whole time period of being
12 united to a veteran for X number of years before
13 you get the DIC status, so let me take a look at
14 it.
15 I've got my computer right back there
16 and I can touch every last one of my employees
17 through that computer because we have that new
18 technology that says I can send them a message
19 saying, "Hey, go get this for me right now.
20 You've got 15 minutes," and they'll have it for
21 me, so I'll get it for you, okay?
22 MEMBER QUARLES: Thank you.
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1 MS. CARSON: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you, and
3appreciate your time today. Francisco Gonzalez
4with the Georgia & Marietta National Cemetery has
5finally made it through traffic, so you're up.
6We're ready. Okay, quiet down.
7 MR. GONZALEZ: Good morning,
8gentlemen. My name is Francisco, and I'm a
9Marine veteran, and I just said this. Joey Meals
10 is an Airmen retiree. He's retired not too long
11 ago, so first, I want to say thank you for your
12 service and your sacrifice for our country.
13 I'm the assistant director at Georgia
14 National Cemetery and I want to speak on behalf
15 of Georgia National Cemetery. I'm going to
16 update on some of the things that's been
17 happening within the NCA as well. I'm not an
18 expert, you know, but if any questions come up,
19 I'll try to find out and answer everybody as best
20 I can, okay?
21 What I'm going to do is I'm going to
22 show a quick video. We call it, "A Sacred
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1Trust." We usually at any presentation, we
2usually show it. It kind of highlights what we
3do, okay.
4 MEMBER KUSHNER: Sir, is that
5available on YouTube?
6 MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, it is. It is
7right directly from YouTube right now.
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: Okay.
9 MR. GONZALEZ: Anything that I'm going
10 to go over today, go to that website. You can
11 find all that information in there today as well,
12 okay? I'm going to go a little bit over.
13 Currently, we have 136 national
14 cemeteries in the United States, all right. Once
15 you're eligible, you're eligible for any cemetery
16 in the United States. When you're eligible, if
17 you're married, your spouse is eligible, okay.
18 If you have any dependent children
19 that are under 24, or 26 if they went to college,
20 they will be eligible too. If you have any
21 physically or mentally handicapped child, adult
22 dependent, as something will probably happen in
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1the future, they will be eligible to be interred
2in a national cemetery too, okay.
3 Currently, the NCA is working on rural
4and urban initiatives, so they're creating more
5cemeteries, you know, for the veterans, and to
6assist veterans, and get those benefits out
7there.
8 So they have a few cemeteries opening
9up which are dedicated in cities that are just
10 going to be cremation only, and that's what we
11 call our urban, and they're building more
12 cemeteries as we speak as well.
13 I think they have probably two more
14 cemeteries they are trying to open before 2020.
15 One of them is Colorado, Pikes Peak National
16 Cemetery, and I think they're also working on
17 opening Buffalo National Cemetery in New York.
18 We grant -- most of our grants, we
19 have grants that go to states and tribal
20 cemeteries. The NCA gives them money to build
21 the cemetery and maintain it to national cemetery
22 standards and specs.
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1 All of the benefits that you will get
2a national cemetery, you will get at those
3cemeteries as well with the only exception
4depending on the state and how much money the
5state gives to that state, they might charge for
6any dependents. Veterans are free, but depending
7on the state and the amount of money they
8receive, they might charge for dependents of the
9veteran.
10 They're also working on weekend
11 burials. Currently, it's already been in test at
12 our largest cemeteries which will be Riverside,
13 Fort Snelling, Jefferson Barracks, Calverton, New
14 York, and Florida National. They've been testing
15 Saturday burials because currently we only do
16 burials Monday to Friday. And eventually since
17 they are expanding it slowly, but right now it's
18 only certain Saturdays of the month for that in
19 those cemeteries.
20 Like the video said, we don't require
21 a lot. We make the process as simple as we can.
22 You need that discharge paperwork, and from
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1there, we'll take it, and if everything is good
2with the discharge paperwork, it can be a matter
3of hours before when we find you eligible.
4 And we have a scheduling office that
5takes care of that. You submit your paperwork
6and give them a call. The family or the funeral
7home could do that, and we'll give them their
8information.
9 Once they create that case, they'll
10 send that case over to the national cemetery of
11 your choosing, and once the cemetery has that
12 case, we can proceed with burial. As long as the
13 cemetery has a time available on the date that
14 you want, we can make it happen.
15 The requirements right now, what it's
16 saying for eligibility at this time is 24 months
17 of active duty, okay, honorable or other than
18 honorable, and that's it, and it can't be for
19 training only.
20 So when a reservist comes in or
21 something like that, and they don't have the
22 time, we usually -- the scheduling has to tell
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1them no, but there's always an appeal process
2that can be put in, but we also recommend to try
3a state or a tribal cemetery as well.
4 If a veteran wants to be interred, it
5doesn't have to be in a national cemetery. If
6they choose to be in a private cemetery, the
7National Administration will still provide some
8benefits to them, that being the headstone,
9Presidential Memorial Certificate, and the flag
10 they deserve. They just need to put the request
11 in with us. It's on the website as well. They
12 can call any national cemeteries. They'll help
13 you out as well.
14 But you get a headstone if you want
15 our upright headstone. They have all the other
16 ones. They have the flat ones as well. They
17 have the fronts. It's up to the family to
18 choose, okay.
19 If you choose your own private marker,
20 we can still put an emblem there that we have for
21 free. We'll send it through the mail as long as
22 you request it with the branch of service, and
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1you can put that on the headstone that you have,
2okay.
3 Like I said, the scheduling office up
4in St. Louis is the department that handles all
5of the cases that come in. They also have an
6eligibility team. So if for some reason that
7veteran's family can't find those records, they
8have a team that specializes just to do that.
9 So if for some reason you're worried
10 that you don't have your records, you can still
11 give them a call and they will look up with their
12 contacts, DoD.
13 They'll try anything, FBI, anybody
14 that has records, DMV, even DMV. If they can
15 find the proof in the VA itself, or the VBA, or
16 VHA, they'll use that as well and make an
17 eligibility determination, and most likely, they
18 will approve it, okay.
19 We also have a team in St. Louis which
20 is responsible for, which they call first notice
21 of events type of thing, and what they do is when
22 the veteran passes, they contact the VA or VHA
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1and let them know that this veteran has passed
2and, you know, those benefits either need to stop
3or anything like that, that way the family later
4on doesn't have to get a bill from the VA, you
5know, trying to recover that money as well.
6 Here at Georgia National Cemetery what
7we do is we inter folks from -- we're open at
88:00 to 4:30 where our services are from 9:00 to
93:00, and that's every half an hour. Most
10 cemeteries are half an hour or 15 minute
11 services.
12 The idea is for a quick service, what
13 we call a committal shelter. Most likely the
14 family has already had a service at a church or
15 another place, and what they do here usually is
16 final farewells and military honors if the family
17 wants to have military honors at the national
18 cemetery.
19 Now I'm going to go over that
20 paperwork that you have right here, and I'm just
21 going to go over all the pages real quick. The
22 first page basically just explains what we do,
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1and that says everything that we provide, the
2burial flag, the memorial, the open and the
3close, the headstone. Everything is at no cost
4to the family.
5 The only thing the family will have to
6pay for is whatever they do with the funeral
7home. So if you determine you want it to be a
8full body casket, you will probably most likely
9pay for the casket, the embalming, and the
10 transportation. If you are cremated, you will
11 just pay for the cremation and the urn. For
12 transportation, the family can bring the urn if
13 they want to.
14 The next page, we have a map of
15 Georgia National Cemetery. We currently have 110
16 acres open right now. We actually have 775 acres
17 for future remodeling and building, okay. So
18 we'll be open for a while, and most likely we'll
19 have one of the largest cemeteries in the United
20 States as well.
21 The next page right behind that we
22 have a pre-need form. This came out last year at
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1the end of last year. It's pretty new. And what
2it is is that eligibility portion you can get
3ahead of time. So all you got to do is fill this
4out.
5 Send a copy of your DD-214 and your
6discharge paperwork with it, and send it to the
7mail address right here on the top right, email
8or fax it, and they'll send you a response back
9in 90 days stating whether you're eligible or
10 not, and why not, and you can appeal it as well.
11 And this will just cut down that question, and
12 especially for those folks that did reserve time
13 and stuff like that, if they were eligible or
14 not.
15 The next page, we go on the scheduling
16 office, what you need to and how to schedule a
17 service at a national cemetery. It's basically
18 what I said earlier. Fax it. Give them a call
19 and let them know the person has passed and what
20 cemetery you want.
21 The next page is military honors.
22 Here, these are the numbers for Georgia National
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1Cemetery for military honors. Military honors
2are performed by DoD. It is also requested by
3the family or the funeral home. Once they have a
4date and time with us, the family will contact or
5the funeral will contact, and they'll be at the
6place and time that the family requested them to
7be and provide honors.
8 Committal shelter just explains what
9we do, the shelter, and exactly what I said. You
10 know, it's 30 minutes or 15 minutes depending on
11 the cemetery that you chose, and it's a quick
12 service.
13 The options, like I said, we have
14 options of -- in Georgia, we have options of the
15 casket in ground. Most cemeteries and newer
16 cemeteries have pre-placed crypts in ground
17 already, so concrete crypts with a lid and
18 everything. So the first person goes first, the
19 second person goes on top, and then it gets
20 covered and closed up with a headstone ready for
21 viewing and all of that.
22 But we also have the option if the
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1family requests it to be interred in a
2traditional section with no crypts, or if the
3family purchased their own vault, we'll put them
4there too, okay.
5 With cremations, you usually have more
6options. You have in ground. The urn will go
7directly in ground, or above ground. What we
8have here on this page right here on the back is
9a columbarium, and it's kind of niches where you
10 put the urn, and there's enough space there for
11 about four regular-sized urns, okay.
12 You can also have your body scattered,
13 your remains scattered. We have a garden, a
14 scatter garden, and what we do in that situation
15 is we'll put a "memory of" in for the veteran, a
16 headstone "in memory of" okay.
17 The next one, we'll go over what I
18 went over about dependent child and spouses, and
19 that just goes a little bit into it. The things
20 that we usually require is a doctor's letter
21 saying that, "Yes, this child was in care of this
22 veteran," or spouse, and a letter from the
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1veteran themselves or the next of kin stating the
2same, that he's always been under your care.
3 The next page is how to obtain a
4discharge document if for some reason you don't
5have it at this point. This is right here just
6at the National Personnel Records in St. Louis as
7well. This process takes a little longer. It
8can take three months or even more depending.
9 The next one will be all of the state
10 national cemeteries, Department of Interior
11 national cemeteries here. One of the things that
12 we require though that the national cemetery has
13 been talking about is trying to integrate some of
14 those other cemeteries that are handled by other
15 departments and trying to take over some of them
16 as long as they agree, so eventually in the
17 future, that will probably become a possibility.
18 Right now, a lot of folks, you know,
19 they want to be interred at Arlington National
20 Cemetery. You know, that I will not be able to
21 talk about. That's Department of Defense. What
22 I can say about that is that usually there is a
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1waiting period for veterans to be interred there.
2I believe it's about 90 days as well, three
3months depending, four months.
4 At a national cemetery with the VA, if
5everything is good to go and everything is ready,
6and you want that service to happen the next day,
7we can do that.
8 The next pages we'll go over is we
9have the religious emblems. This is some of the
10 markings that can go on the headstone. Currently
11 those are the only ones authorized. And I'll
12 leave it there. And if you guys have any
13 questions for me, I'll try to answer them.
14 MEMBER MOORE: Jeff Moore. Does the
15 website list availabilities at the different VA
16 cemeteries or does it say, "This one is closed"?
17 MR. GONZALEZ: Yes, they will.
18 Usually because if a cemetery says "closed," it's
19 closed for first interments, for the first person
20 going in, like we handle Marietta National
21 Cemetery.
22 Marietta is a closed cemetery. It
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1doesn't mean we still don't do burials there.
2The second person, the spouse or the second
3person that passes away, we'll still go there and
4perform that burial for that family there.
5 MEMBER MOORE: Thank you.
6 MR. GONZALEZ: Well, thank you for
7having me. It's a pleasure, and thank you for
8what you guys did.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Thank you.
10 MR. GONZALEZ: I'm honored. Thank
11 you.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Stephen Branham, is
13 he here? Yeah, you can't get pre-approved at
14 Arlington, by the way, but --
15 MEMBER SORTILLO: Well, I think as
16 long as you're in the system when they check you
17 out, you're in the system.
18 MEMBER HANTON: I think if you already
19 have someone buried, like my spouse is buried
20 there, you're kind of pre-approved in a sense.
21 MEMBER MOORE: This form applies only
22 to the VA though, not to DoD, yeah.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Good morning, Stephen.
2Are you on the line?
3 MR. BRANHAM: Hey, Leslie, this is
4Stephen. Can you hear me all right?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
6 MR. BRANHAM: I'm ready to get started
7whenever you guys are ready.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay, we're ready.
9 MR. BRANHAM: Okay, great, and I don't
10 know, do you guys have my slides up over there or
11 do you need me to show my screen?
12 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we do, so if you
13 can just say, "next," we'll advance them forward.
14 MR. BRANHAM: Okay, and I'm actually
15 going to start just a little bit before the
16 slides. I won't talk on the first slide just
17 yet, but I just want to get started with an
18 introduction of myself.
19 My name is Stephen Branham. I've been
20 with the National Work Queue as a lead analyst.
21 I've been with NWQ for three years now. Okay,
22 thanks, I see that you've got the slides up.
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1 Prior to that, I spent some time as a
2veteran's service representative and a rating
3veteran's service representative at the Waco VA
4Regional Office and the Lincoln VA Regional
5Office. Additionally, I was a service center
6management analyst prior to coming to D.C.
7 Just personally a little bit about
8myself, I was born and raised in Texas. I spent
9some time in the Army, both enlisted and
10 commissioned, and then I also traveled quite a
11 bit doing that, and then wound up here in D.C.
12 So I'm really honored that you guys
13 asked NWQ to speak on the FPOW, to you guys and
14 to this committee regarding the claims process.
15 So I just thought prior to going into how POW
16 claims, FPOW claims are out in the National Work
17 Queue environment, just to give you a little bit
18 of a higher level NWQ mechanics of what things
19 look like operationally on a daily basis within
20 the National Work Queue.
21 So for those of you that aren't aware,
22 prior to NWQ, before the electronic claims
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1process when we had paper claim folders, all
2claims were housed at specific regional offices
3and they were worked within those ROs, and there
4were instances where claims were brokered from
5one RO to another.
6 So if a RO had too much inventory than
7they had capacity to work that inventory, then
8there was a laborious process where they could
9move those claims to another regional office in
10 order to efficiently process those claims, but
11 what National Work Queue has done is it's matched
12 inventory with capacity nationwide so that way we
13 can move claims as efficiently as possible.
14 So what this looks like on a daily
15 basis in the National Work Queue environment is
16 every claim that's established is recalled in the
17 National Work Queue the next day, and then
18 distributed nationwide to match inventory with
19 resources.
20 So for example, this morning -- I'm
21 just going to pull up my daily report just to get
22 some numbers and give you an example of what this
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1morning's distribution looked like. So
2yesterday, they established over 5,000 claims,
3and that's what we traditionally see on a daily
4basis. Between 4,500 to 5,500 claims are
5established nationwide.
6 So we recalled those claims and then
7we distribute them out nationwide to regional
8offices that have the ability to work those
9claims. And we want to do those on the next day
10 as soon as possible so that way we can get that
11 first touch on that claim as soon as possible, so
12 that way veterans can have contact by VA right
13 out of the gate, so as soon as they establish
14 those claims.
15 Additionally, so for those of you that
16 are aware of the life cycles of the claims, so we
17 have claims that are in initial development.
18 They are pending the first touch, and then claims
19 that are in supplemental development, so they're
20 waiting on additional evidence to come in of some
21 sort, and then claims will move into --
22 Once all of that evidence has come
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1back, they will be ready for a decision, and once
2a decision is done, they'll move into the award
3cycle and then the authorization cycle.
4 In our current environment, claims
5that are ready for a decision forward, so either
6they're waiting for an RVSR to rate that claim or
7for a promulgator to promulgate that rating
8decision, our current inventory, we're on demand
9rating and promulgation. What this means is
10 we've got our inventory down to a point where we
11 have sufficient resources to work that inventory
12 on a day-to-day basis.
13 So our first slide here, this is just
14 a higher level view of the mechanics, but there
15 are specifics as far as the way that National
16 Work Queue ranks claims within that distribution,
17 and at the very top of that ranking are VA
18 priority claims.
19 So in National Work Queue, we have a
20 rule set that ranks claims based off a series of
21 attributes. For example, if you have a
22 backlogged claim, most often than not, more often
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1than not rather, it would go out ahead of a non-
2backlogged claim, so we place more weight on
3those older claims. This is true in most cases
4except for your VA priority claims.
5 So if you had a claim that's an FPOW
6that's been pending for one day and its action
7will go out, and you have a non-VA priority claim
8that's backlogged or older than that claim, the
9FPOW claim would distribute ahead of that because
10 we want to ensure that those priority claims go
11 out as soon as they can and get in the hands of
12 claims processors as quickly as possible, so
13 that's why our VA priority claims are listed at
14 the top of our ranking rules.
15 Let's go ahead and hit the next slide.
16 And before we get onto this dashboard, I just
17 want to talk about the routing too. So we talked
18 about how claims are routing based off of
19 capacity.
20 So for example, if you have the
21 capacity to take on some claims and you take on
22 some claims that have a regional office of
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1another station, so maybe a Nebraska veteran
2might be worked in Waco if Nebraska doesn't have
3the capacity to work that claim.
4 That holds true for most instances for
5commissions or claims such as homeless and then
6former prisoners of war claims. So FPOW routing,
7those claims are routed specifically to the
8veteran's station where the veteran's residence
9is, so those claims will stay within those
10 closest to the veteran's geographic location.
11 Additionally from there, once NWQ
12 distributes those actionable claims, those former
13 prisoner of war claims to those ROs, the RO can
14 have local routing rules established that can
15 route those to a particular employee.
16 So if they want those FPOW claims to
17 go to one of their faster claims processors, or
18 to their FPOW coordinator, they can identify that
19 FPOW as special issue and then route that claim
20 specifically to that employee to ensure that only
21 that one employee works that claim.
22 And with that too, so stations have
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1optics on these claims as well as NWQ has optics.
2For example, this is a look at some of the things
3that we look at here at the national level. This
4is our FPOW inventory. This was as of September
54 when I was previously going to present.
6 But we look at things such as if you
7look at the upper left table, we'll look at
8average cases pending of the claims that are out
9of the regional offices versus the ones that are
10 with us at National Work Queue.
11 And then one of the big driving
12 factors that we look at too is time in queue.
13 How long has the claim been sitting at the
14 regional office on average? You see there it's
15 been sitting there. That cohort of FPOW claims
16 have been sitting on average for 3.3 days, and in
17 the National Work Queue, it will sit for 10.2
18 days.
19 So one of the reasons you'll see
20 claims sit longer in National Work Queue is
21 because we want it -- when it's pending
22 something, so if it's waiting on evidence to come
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1back, we want those claims to sit with us rather
2than count against the regional office's time in
3queue, that way we can measure how fast the
4regional office is moving those claims.
5 And then you can look. We'll have
6some outliers of claims that are sitting for
7longer than 15 days, and then we also look at the
8inventory, and then in the scatter plot, we'll
9look at the time on station, so the time in queue
10 versus the age of the claim, days pending.
11 So we also monitor claims in 499.
12 That's our regional office. We take a look at
13 those claims and ensure that they're moving from
14 our queue as efficiently as possible, and we look
15 at our daily distribution and recall of this
16 cohort as well too.
17 We'll go to the next slide and we'll
18 see some of the views that the regional office
19 has to look at. So it's important to note that
20 employees can see their former POW claims whether
21 they're with their station or if they're in
22 National Work Queue as well too.
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1 So there's a report, a tableau server
2report called an MHAR report, and within that
3report, they can drill down into their FPOW
4claims either at their station or at multiple
5stations, but they can look at things for time in
6queue by cycle for example.
7 So you can see on the 5th, we had 141
8FPOW claims pending nationwide, and then on
9average for initial development, they've been for
10 3.9 days time in queue by that cycle, so they've
11 been at that RO for just under four days.
12 And then the bottom left, they can
13 actually take a look at where those claims are by
14 team and drill into those claims, and so they can
15 see if a claim has been sitting with this
16 particular team for too long. They can drill
17 into that claim and then contact that team and
18 see if there's an issue, or what's kind of
19 prolonging that claim if you will.
20 So at the RO, they can also take a
21 look at time in queue by user and by RO, so they
22 can actually look at how long the claim has been
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1sitting with an individual user and then drill
2into that claim and see where it's at, who
3currently has that claim, and how long they've
4had it as well too.
5 So that's really kind of the nuts and
6bolts of National Work Queue and the distribution
7process, and then how it works with FPOWs, and I
8just want to open it up and see what kind of
9questions you have, and we can take the
10 discussion in the route regarding the questions
11 that you guys have regarding this process.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Questions, folks?
13 Dr. Moore?
14 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, Jeff Moore.
15 Earlier we heard about the identification of FPOW
16 claims, and their priority, and the flash that
17 you have just shown us as well. Do you have a
18 sense of how often a FPOW claim is not identified
19 initially because the flash was not turned on,
20 and all of a sudden you realize, "Oh, we have an
21 FPOW claim that wasn't properly identified
22 initially"?
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1 MR. BRANHAM: So I know we struggle
2with that at times with our homeless inventory,
3and there's an actual homeless flash report that
4Comp Service looks at and I think BAS looks at,
5but as far as the FPOW flash and whether or not
6it's delayed as far as being put on the claim, I
7don't have visibility on that.
8 I could reach out to Comp Service or
9BAS and see if they have visibility on that, but
10 at this time, I'm not aware of a report that
11 shows that.
12 MEMBER MOORE: Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Any other
14 questions? It looks like you covered the
15 territory for us, so thank you for your time
16 today. I'm sorry that Irma got in our way in
17 September.
18 MR. BRANHAM: No, and I'm sorry that
19 I couldn't go out there and see you guys. And if
20 you guys have any questions kind of late flowing,
21 just feel free to reach out to me. I'm available
22 via IM, or email, or phone, so I'm open to
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1dialogue and anything you guys would like to
2discuss.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, thank you,
4Mr. Branham.
5 MR. BRANHAM: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right, our next
7item is lunch.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: It's Panera Bread.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Panera Bread?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Don't look so sad
12 about that.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: I am not a big fan of
14 Panera Bread.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I picked that up
16 right off.
17 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Do they have pea
18 soup?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Pea soup?
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I don't know what
21 kind of soup they'll have today. We'll find out
22 when we get there, but you can get an apple.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: They have broccoli and
2cheese.
3 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Apple or chips,
4yeah.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I love Panera
6Bread. All right, is that walking or is that -
7 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we're going to
8drive. We're going to take the 15 passenger.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, very good,
10 and in case you're wondering, in the back of the
11 room is Jim Williams, so a prisoner of war a
12 little bit longer than me, a lot less longer than
13 these two guys over here, three guys, and was
14 released a day before I was, but he's a local guy
15 and he brought some things with us.
16 He'll be on the docket later this
17 afternoon for our information, all right? So
18 let's make it down to lunch and we'll be back
19 when we get back. I don't think it will take us
20 two hours to eat at Panera Bread.
21 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
22 went off the record at 11:43 a.m. and resumed at
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12:00 p.m.)
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Good afternoon.
3It's 2:00 here wherever we are, Atlanta, and Anna
4Crenshaw, you're up.
5 MS. CRENSHAW: I'm being paged.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You're being paged,
7front and center. While we're waiting for the
8battery, we have two things to bring up. One is
9that we checked with Jeff Moragne this morning
10 and we are on a three-year cycle, okay, not two.
11 The other is you have menus from The
12 Capital Grille. That will be dinner tonight.
13 There's a nice appetizer on here that's only
14 $109. You might not want to consider that one,
15 but everything else seems to be about Atlanta
16 average.
17 PARTICIPANT: Excuse me?
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, sir?
19 PARTICIPANT: My batteries went out.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: They did? Yeah,
21 you're right. We'll get you a AAA and stick it
22 in your ear, how's that?
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1 PARTICIPANT: Could you repeat that,
2please?
3 MS. CRENSHAW: All right, are you guys
4ready?
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: We are.
6 MS. CRENSHAW: All right, so yesterday
7I introduced myself and I gave you a little bit
8about myself, so today I'm just going to talk
9about the Benefits Assistance Service and what we
10 do. As you know, I'm the assistant director over
11 at the VBA National Outreach and Web Office, and
12 the FPOW Committee is one of the committees that
13 I have oversight for.
14 So the Benefits Assistance Service, so
15 one of our key messages at BAS, and we say
16 Benefits Assistance Service, BAS, we drive the
17 touch points of how a service member, a veteran,
18 family members, or other stakeholders interface
19 with VBA. We do that through our division which
20 is made up --
21 We have a contracts division. That's
22 a whole team where we have the Tap contracts, and
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1as you know, other contracts, but Tap is one of
2the biggest contracts we have. We have a
3marketing outreach contract where the DRC
4campaign is part of that contract.
5 We have -- our division is made up of
6the military to civilian transition. They have a
7chief of interagency coordination and a chief of
8Tap operations. So the military to civilian
9transition has an AD over it, and then we also
10 have two chiefs underneath.
11 And let me back up. Our director,
12 Margarita Devlin, is over all of BAS, and so
13 everything that you see here will fall underneath
14 her. I'm actually here on her behalf to give
15 this presentation.
16 And so the contracts division is made
17 up of a GS-15 as well, and then several cores
18 underneath there. Then the enterprise contact
19 operation, we have a GS-15 over that, Ms. Pamela
20 Liverman, the contact center chief, and we have a
21 chief of access.
22 The contact center is our public
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1contact teams and our call centers. They have
2oversight for public contact operations in the
3regional office and call centers. And then the
4access team is our business access team, which
5they have e-benefits and our outreach reporting
6to grant access for tools such as that.
7 The quality and compliance team is
8exactly what it says. It's made up of our site
9visit team and our quality team. Our site visit
10 team often goes out to conduct site visits at all
11 of the regional offices, and the compliance team
12 does compliance, quality and compliance on the
13 national call center.
14 Then last, but definitely not least,
15 and one of the most important teams within the
16 Benefits Assistance Service would be the VBA
17 National Outreach and Web Office, which I am the
18 assistant director of that team, which makes it
19 so fabulous, and underneath that team is the
20 outreach team and the web communication.
21 So just a little history about the
22 Benefits Assistance Service, in May of 2010, BAS
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1was established as VBA's outreach office. Prior
2to BAS being stood up, we were all part of
3Compensation Service and BAS fell underneath the
4Compensation Service.
5 But the parts that needed to be done
6such as outreach and things of that nature were
7kind of sorely neglected because as you know,
8Compensation Service is a dinosaur of VBA. If
9you take a look back there at Ms. Laurine Carson,
10 you will see that that's a dinosaur.
11 (Laughter)
12 MS. CRENSHAW: And so that was all
13 underneath one umbrella, but some things that
14 needed to get done, some outreach and the public
15 contact things were being absorbed and not really
16 being taken care of, so BAS was stood up to take
17 care of that, and VBA Letter 20-16-12 established
18 BAS as the lead office for outreach program
19 oversight and coordination for all of the
20 outreach activities reported in material.
21 And you will say, "Why if you were
22 stood up to be the VBA outreach office, why would
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1you need a VBA letter to give you the opportunity
2to be the lead?" Well, we were stood up in 2010
3to be that outreach office, but we didn't have
4the real policies and the procedures or the
5backing to say, "Hey, we need this."
6 It was a feel good, "We want to do
7this. Please do this for us," and guess what the
8regional office would say back to us? "We can't
9afford to do that. We don't have the resources
10 to do that," or, "How are you going to help us to
11 do that?" So we've grown, and this letter did
12 set clear guidelines to say that BAS was that
13 office to lead that coordination effort.
14 Now, we have a long way to go. We
15 still have a lot of bite, but not a whole lot of
16 -- a lot of bark, but still not a whole lot of
17 bite, so as we grow, we will continue to develop
18 procedures that will allow us to be able to
19 mandate a little bit more, and we're not at that
20 particular stage right now, but we do have some
21 mandated reporting that's helping us get there.
22 And in December 2016, BAS assumed the
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1FPOW program from Compensation Service, which we
2like to think that we've shown some improvement
3in how this committee operates now because of it
4being properly aligned. It wasn't so much that
5Comp was doing a bad job. It just wasn't
6properly aligned.
7 As the outreach office, we believe
8that we have the outreach effort. We have the
9oversight for it, and if we actually have more
10 oversight for the committee, then we could
11 actually better, you know, the things that are
12 going on.
13 I have my Leslie as my DFO, and Mr.
14 Marshall, and Mr. Philip Christian as our
15 alternate, and so we have a little bit more
16 control, and that helps us be able to interact
17 with you and meet your demands, and I think
18 Leslie does a very good job of taking care of
19 this committee, and issues and concerns that
20 arise, so that move, I think, was a good move.
21 So our FPOW coordinators, as you heard
22 from the regional office coordinator today, each
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1regional office has in place a designated primary
2and alternate FPOW coordinator. Those
3coordinators provide benefit information and
4claims assistance to FPOWs and their family
5members.
6 The coordinators conduct outreach to
7FPOWs, their spouses, and family members of
8missing in action service members. They record
9all of the outreach activities in the outreach
10 reporting tool, and they have to do that within
11 five business days.
12 The tool locks down after five
13 business days, so if they haven't reported it
14 after five business days, they then have to
15 contact us at CO and ask us to actually record
16 the items for them.
17 They're pretty good at recording their
18 items because they don't want to contact us and
19 say that they have not done what they needed to
20 do and can we please do it for them.
21 They have access to a resource
22 directory or local organizations that provide
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1specific services to FPOWs, and we really
2encourage them to go out in the community and
3connect with their community leaders. I have Mr.
4Marshall here who is also my faith-based program
5manager for faith-based neighborhood
6partnerships.
7 And so working with the FPOW committee
8and being the program manager for the faith-based
9in the local organization is a real nice mix
10 because he not only can engage from a local and
11 community perspective, he's at the national
12 level, and then he can identify those unknown
13 entities within the local community that can
14 align themselves with the FPOWs, so that's been a
15 good partnership, he and Leslie working together
16 there.
17 Okay, coordinators also act as the
18 point of contact for VA and other service
19 providers for FPOWs and their families. They
20 establish a network among community service
21 providers, and they share information on claims
22 processing for FPOW advocates at the VA medical
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1centers, the vet centers, and other local
2community organizations, so there should always
3be a warm hand out.
4 No FPOW claim should just be lingering
5out there. If you have a VBA POC, the FPOW
6coordinator, and you have the VAMC, they should
7be communicating with each other. They should be
8picking up the phone, talking, and making sure
9that the needs of that FPOW is taken care of and
10 they're doing it in a very professional, succinct
11 manner. They meet regularly with FPOW groups at
12 their local regional office, so different
13 regional offices should be meeting with their
14 local FPOW groups within their community.
15 And I know you heard a little bit
16 about the National Work Queue this morning, and
17 that's working with the claims, but the community
18 organization should be meeting with their local
19 regional office, so that face to face point of
20 resolution should never go away.
21 They advertise VA benefits information
22 on the regional office local website. Every
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1regional office has a local website where they
2can advertise their information at, and so we do
3do a compliance check.
4 Web communication does fall underneath
5me now, so the web office does a compliance check
6to make sure that events that are being held in
7the local community, if the FPOW is aware of
8them, they should be posted on the regional
9office website.
10 So if you're working within your
11 community and you know your organizations,
12 encourage them to submit that information to us.
13 We have a national outreach mailbox. I'll make
14 sure you get that information because if you can
15 have them send that to the national mailbox, our
16 outreach mailbox, we in turn will ensure that it
17 gets to the regional office.
18 And then they also advertise in
19 various locations where FPOWs, their spouses, and
20 family members live or frequently visit. That
21 would be at your churches, at your community
22 centers, the VFWs and places like that.
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1 So FPOW claims, the VSRs and RVSRs are
2considered part of the FPOW care and benefits
3team with VHA, and they receive mandatory
4education and certification, and Stacey spoke to
5that yesterday, so I don't even really have to
6address that, so you guys know that they are
7getting the training that they need.
8 FPOW claims are prioritized in VBMS,
9in our Veterans Benefits Management System. You
10 heard a little bit from the National Work Queue
11 and you also heard it from the FPOW coordinators.
12 Those claims are still prioritized regardless of
13 the work queue.
14 The coordinators ensure that the
15 claims are flagged and hand carried, and when we
16 identify that that's not happening, then we deal
17 with that on a case by case basis, but each case
18 should be flagged and they should be hand carried
19 to someone to actually make sure that the work is
20 getting done.
21 And I know that not all regional
22 offices, you know, adhere to that sometimes, but
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1they definitely try, and when we find out that
2they're not, then we reinforce that that should
3be happening.
4 Our message for outreach is in using
5proactive outreach, we ensure that all service
6members, veterans, and families of every
7demographic receive current and accurate
8information about benefits and services.
9 Our objective is to ensure that the
10 important benefit information is provided to the
11 right person at the right time and in the right
12 way, and that is for the purpose of improving
13 ease of access and to put the veterans in control
14 of how, when, and where they wish to be served.
15 That's saying a lot, right? But
16 basically I really genuinely feel like that. I
17 feel like not everyone -- we're not cookie
18 cutters. All of us are unique and all are
19 different.
20 We're veterans that have a similarity,
21 but unique needs, and so my needs may be very,
22 very different from your needs, and so my goal in
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1outreach is to reach out in a manner where I am
2reaching every demographic.
3 I'm reaching those veterans and they
4are resoundingly saying to me, "Anna, this is
5what I need. I know you're doing this over here,
6but here is what I need, and how are you going to
7help me be able to better access the VA?"
8 For example, our rural veterans,
9access to the VA may be very different for a
10 rural veteran than for a veteran living in
11 downtown Manhattan, New York. And so my goal is
12 to continue to work on ways where we make it very
13 easy for them to meet their needs, and will
14 provide it to them when they need it at all
15 stages of life, from cradle to grave we like to
16 say.
17 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay. So our outreach.
18 We manage DVA's outreach by ensuring
19 a strong presence with a unified message across
20 the nation. That's my job, to ensure that the
21 outreach is consistent as much as possible and
22 that there is a strong message.
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1 And when I say across the nation, I
2really mean across the nation, not just here in
3America. We have overseas military service
4coordinators in Japan, we have them in Europe.
5And in Europe we have overseas military service
6coordinators that are in Frankfurt, Deinstadt.
7We have them in Italy. We have them in England.
8And, on, and -- oh, I did say Germany, Italy, and
9England.
10 And in Japan we have them in three
11 places, Okinawa, Iwakuni, and I'm trying to think
12 of the other one, Yokosuka. Yokosuka.
13 We coordinator the DVA's outreach
14 activities where they will provide the greatest
15 return on investment, mostly closely aligned with
16 merging outreach demographics, and most
17 importantly, increased access to support of NATO,
18 an update on that whole message there. The goal
19 is to make sure that we meet the veterans' needs
20 at the time that they need them and the way that
21 they would like to receive them.
22 We, my team developed policies and
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1procedures for the special emphasis outreach
2programs. We facilitate and conduct target
3outreach campaigns. And my team participates in
4local and national boots on the ground outreach.
5And we have several special emphasis outreach
6programs per year.
7 Before I go over this slide I'll just
8briefly cover on some of the outreach programs in
9addition to the FPOW staff that the service has
10 oversight for, as you know, one of our huge
11 programs is the transition assistance program.
12 That's a whole separate division I talked to you
13 about at the beginning of this briefing that
14 falls upon Meredith Thomas. That, that's one of
15 the biggest ones. And we work closely with that
16 team to meet their needs as well.
17 In addition to that we have the
18 homeless; we have the minority; we have the
19 women; we have rules; we have casualty; we have
20 foreign; we have -- am I missing -- Yellow
21 Ribbon; we have the TAA transition assistance; we
22 have the Wounded Warriors, Army Air Force, Navy,
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1and Marines. What am I missing? Whose program
2am I missing? Did I get them all? Pretty much.
3 We also have oversight for our -- the
4burials and the flags. We do a lot of
5interaction with them. And one of our main teams
6that we work with is our outreach reporting team
7where all the regional offices are mandated to
8report in activities. So we write the business
9requirements for that team. We maintain the
10 performance of it. And we capture the data in
11 the outreach reporting too. We analyze that
12 data. We report that data to Congress on a
13 biannu -- on an annual basis. We do the biannual
14 outreach report, and we do the annual, the
15 biannual outreach plan.
16 The benefits book that you have, that
17 everyone has, that little benefits book that we
18 pass out, my staff coordinates that benefits book
19 to make sure that everything we write actually we
20 write it up pretty much.
21 Mr. Marshall had the honor this year
22 of being responsible for the benefits book. It
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1was his first year. And he got it, he did a good
2job on it. But it is a lot of coordination when
3you're coordinating with every entity that has an
4input into that book.
5 So we gather all of that input. We
6edit it. We make the content publishable and
7then we publish.
8 We also have BAS POC that's
9responsible for all the publications and the
10 forms within the Benefits Assistance Office. So
11 I think my team has a tremendous amount of work.
12 And I think they do a really good job.
13 And these are some of the highlights
14 from FPOW that we did. Rolling Thunder Run, we
15 do it every year. There's always over one
16 million in attendance at that run on Memorial Day
17 weekend. The attendance continues to increase
18 annually. It is the world's largest single-day
19 motorcycle event.
20 And let me just speak a little bit
21 about what we do when we have Rolling Thunder, my
22 team specifically. We get up and start planning
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1for it. We coordinate ahead of time. We have a
2space that's reserved. But that morning of, and
3I've done Rolling Thunder every year except for
4this past year. I did not do Rolling Thunder.
5It's the first year I have not done Rolling
6Thunder. We load up everything about the night
7before, Leslie and I, and Mr. Marshall and I, and
8another teammate. We load up all the water, all
9the snacks, all the stuff. We'll do that the
10 night before.
11 The morning of we'll get a lot of ice.
12 And we usually get up about 4:30 in the morning
13 and we have to get to the parking lot at --
14 definitely have to be there before 6:00 because
15 after that they lock the parking lot out because
16 all the bikes are going to be coming in.
17 And once you are in the parking lot
18 you cannot leave the parking lot until all the
19 bikes have left. The bikes start rolling out
20 about 12:00 o'clock. And we are there usually
21 from 4:30 that morning to 5:00 o'clock that
22 afternoon. And we always have a really, really
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1good time. It's probably one of the best events
2that we have.
3 We had a couple years ago people would
4just come. And some people are angry with the VA
5and they throw water at us. And we were, like,
6how do we get these people to just stop and
7listen to us? We need, we need them to just
8listen to us and know that we're friendly people,
9that we're nice.
10 And so what we did, we took paper,
11 little lunch bags. We stuffed them with goodies.
12 And we have water because it's hot, so everybody
13 wants to get cold water because it's really hot
14 that day. We knew we had cold water. And we had
15 signs that say "cold water free." We put the
16 benefit information on the bag, we stapled it.
17 And when people came to grab it, because they
18 grab the stuff off the table we were like, oh,
19 we're going to give that out but you've got to
20 listen to this presentation.
21 So we gave a 5- or 10-minute little
22 presentation. And people were just piled up
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1because one or two people standing there it drew
2a crowd. And then the crowd was eager to hear
3what we had to say. And so once they listened to
4us we then passed out the bag and the cold water.
5And so it was very successful.
6 We do the Mega Flyover honoring all
7the World War II veterans, FPOWs Missing in
8Action. We hold the FPOW annual training
9conference. And we do the national outreach
10 quarterly training calls. We continue those
11 calls.
12 And just to give you an idea, this is
13 Rolling Thunder. We took a picture. And the
14 parking lot had not quite filled up. This was
15 probably about 6:00 o'clock in the morning during
16 Rolling Thunder, my team and I a couple years
17 ago. Rob Reynolds was the director at that time.
18 He is now the deputy undersecretary for
19 disability. And he is still attending Rolling
20 Thunder because he rides every year.
21 But in FY 2017 we conducted over 136K
22 hours of outreach. We coordinated across all of
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1DVA's business line. And we reached over 3.1
2million service members. And for FPOW we did
3more than 1900 hours of outreach targeting FPOW
4survivors and family members.
5 To give you an idea of what that
6looked like when I started at the Benefits
7Assistance Service, and 2011 the outreach hours
8were at 36K hours. And so we've increased from
92011 to now from a hundred -- 36K to over 136K.
10 And we were seeing not even 500,000. So now
11 we're at 3.1 reaching people. And that's through
12 innovation, creativity, and doing what we said
13 we're doing, reaching out in ways that they want
14 to be reached.
15 There are multiple ways in outreach
16 that you can reach an individual. You don't
17 always have to do that through technology. It's
18 through conference. It's through the boots on
19 the ground. It's through sharing information.
20 I tell my team all the time, outreach
21 is always within you. You don't necessarily have
22 to be in front of an audience to conduct
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1outreach. If you're sitting on the Metro and you
2strike up a conversation with someone and they
3say "I'm a veteran," you can talk to them a
4little bit and say, "Hey, are you getting your
5benefits? Thank you for your service. Are you
6receiving the benefits?"
7 If they tell you no, "Well, how about
8that, I can help you. Here's a business card.
9Please contact me."
10 And I demand that they follow up with
11 individuals. And it's simply a one-on-one touch
12 point. Outreach begins with you, it begins with
13 me, and it's just, like I said, one-to-one. And
14 when we get the big audience it's great, but the
15 best type of outreach is when I'm dealing with
16 you on a personal level and you're telling me
17 your story. And I'm listening to your story. I
18 appreciate that. And then I turn around and say,
19 "How can I help you?"
20 That's what I have for you today. Are
21 there any questions?
22 MEMBER HANTON: Tom Hanton here. We
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1have an excellent opportunity for some outreach
2next year, our 45th Nam-POW meeting in Dallas,
3Texas, in April if you want to reach several
4hundred of us.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I'll send you a note
6with the dates.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay, yeah. And this
8was our first time doing Nam-POW this year.
9Leslie had asked to attend. We got that kind of
10 at a last minute, so I wanted to know what it
11 was. We were doing research.
12 So she actually went to Nam-POW and
13 helped with membership solicitations. I think it
14 was very -- like I said, it was our very first
15 time. And after weeks of take -- we took over
16 the program. It's been a year now. And we are
17 anxious to grow the program, to learn more about
18 how we, having ownership of this program, can
19 reach the people that we need to reach.
20 And we're still struggling with that.
21 I'll be the first to admit that it is not
22 something that's easy to do. I was talking with
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1Dr. Certain on this just a little bit: how do we
2reach the ones that are not in our system?
3 We can -- I can do a data call and do
4a data pool and find the FPOWs that out there.
5We know the ones that are in VHA that are
6receiving services. And we know the ones that
7are on the VBA roll. What we don't know is the
8ones that DoD has at, you know, they know the
9FPOWs.
10 And that's something that Leslie and
11 I are still working so that once we identify them
12 one of the recommendations was out of the
13 committee last year was to outreach to these
14 individuals.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Robert Certain.
16 There are a couple of sources that you
17 can pull from in addition to DoD. One is the
18 Nam-POW membership list, and the other is the
19 American Ex-POWs membership list. And there's
20 overlap there. But that's, that's -- if those
21 two organizations will give you their membership
22 lists then you can run against those who are in
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1the system and those who are rated so that you
2can do better outreach, pointed, direct.
3 Another possibility would be to submit
4periodic articles to both those organizations.
5Tom Hanton over there runs the email newsletter
6for Nam-POWs. And the one for American Ex-POWs,
7and it's a --
8 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- quarterly
10 newsletter. And so the editor for that is always
11 looking for good information to pass on to the
12 members.
13 So, so those are two ways rather than
14 just using government sources, to use the
15 organizational sources that are out there in the
16 field.
17 And in so far as possible, to solicit
18 those organizations or recruit their members into
19 the --
20 MS. CRENSHAW: That would be excellent.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Because we can do it
22 eyeball to eyeball a lot easier than you can.
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1And can be fairly successful because, first of
2all they know us and trust us, and if we trust
3the VA then they're more likely to trust the VA
4than otherwise. As we know, we have a PR problem
5that's existed since the '70s with the Vietnam
6generation anyway, and it's hard to overcome
7that.
8 So, yeah, I recommend just informally
9here that you think about ways in which you can
10 get the POW organizations to help bring in their
11 members in order to, first of all, so you help
12 them understand what their benefits are and to
13 help them secure whatever those benefits are and
14 treatment facilities are for them and their
15 potential surviving spouse.
16 MS. CRENSHAW: That would be excellent.
17 And I would love to work with you on that, and
18 particularly with Nam-POWs. Leslie said that it
19 went very well. And so based on just that one
20 outreach event that she attended.
21 And then if I -- and you've already
22 given me one result. We could definitely connect
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1after this conference and talk about ways that we
2can reach the POW, Nam-POW membership and the
3POWs that are not in the system using the local
4organizations, using the people that you know.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Next year's will be
6larger than this year's. This year's was a
7small, a small reunion that was combined with the
8Son Tay Raiders. Next year because it's a 45th
9anniversary of our repatriation and then it's
10 more likely to have at least double the number
11 present. And a lot of spouses and grandkids and
12 kids come with us to these things.
13 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, awesome.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So then you can
15 reach out to them as well.
16 MS. CRENSHAW: We'll start working on
17 that as soon as we get back. And you can count
18 the VA in that.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Joe is the head of
20 the organization. And Tom runs the
21 communications for it.
22 MS. CRENSHAW: So we have an invite;
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1right?
2 MEMBER HANTON: Yes, ma'am.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You can give him
4your business card.
5 MEMBER HANTON: Not just be there but
6we have a whole business meeting. And that's
7when the membership will --
8 MS. CRENSHAW: We will definitely be --
9you give the invitation, we'll be there.
10 MEMBER HANTON: Do you want me to send
11 the invitation to you or to Leslie?
12 MS. CRENSHAW: You can send it to me.
13 MEMBER MOORE: Jeff Moore. I have one
14 question and then a comment as well.
15 Earlier we heard that there was on a
16 VA website, it wasn't specified, a nationwide
17 coordinator list. Is that specifically under
18 your office or is that just if a person just goes
19 to the VA website can they see a list of the
20 update --
21 MS. CRENSHAW: No. It's actually
22 internal.
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1 MEMBER MOORE: Oh, it's an internal.
2 MS. CRENSHAW: Right. It's an internal
3list , it's not an external list. And Leslie
4actually maintains that list. Right?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And but it may be
6externally.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: Yeah. That was one of
8the recommendations that came out I think last
9year from one, was it the 2017 recommendation or?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. It was the
11 recommendation for a list of VBA coordinators and
12 VHA advocates to be placed externally. So Dr.
13 Powell provided me a list of all the VHA
14 advocates. So now the only thing we have to do
15 is do a data call for VBA and then we can publish
16 it externally.
17 MEMBER MOORE: And the other question
18 I have, is there a brochure that says, hey, if
19 you haven't, if you haven't applied for benefits,
20 here's where you should call and that sort of
21 thing?
22 The reason why I ask that is even
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1though I'm not with the Mitchell Center anymore,
2if we had some of those brochures we could easily
3put those in the waiting room. And as the Nam-
4POW comes through the Mitchell Center they could
5say, "Oh yeah, here's -- oh, I need to do that."
6 We could also make it available at the
7VFW, the American Legion, Military Order of the
8Purple Heart.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Exactly. All of
10 those.
11 MEMBER MOORE: And all the other
12 veteran organizations to put out to their
13 members.
14 MS. CRENSHAW: So we do have outreach
15 material. We have multiple brochures. We have
16 our benefits handbook.
17 We are working right now on another
18 outreach magazine. But all of our outreach
19 materials telling you how to apply for benefits,
20 if you -- Leslie and I can take that back as a
21 you guys want outreach materials that you could
22 be able to distribute to your membership. We
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1think that's an easy ask.
2 And the little benefit book that we
3had. And I don't know if anyone, you all have
4seen the latest benefit book? Have you seen the
5latest one out that's about 60 pages?
6 Let me get that for you. I have one.
7I brought one with me.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: For initial outreach
9I think this is about as big as you want to be.
10 MEMBER MOORE: Exactly, yeah. Yeah.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Because with initial
12 outreach if you hand then that they're not going
13 to look at it.
14 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, okay.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: But something about
16 this big.
17 MS. CRENSHAW: We have trifolds. We do
18 have trifolds.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Trifolds would be
20 good.
21 MS. CRENSHAW: And we have some
22 materials that we've been working with for our
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1Decision Ready Plan. We have our e-benefits
2material.
3 This is actually the benefits book.
4Now, most of you remember it when it was this big
5and it had everything in it. This is our new
6benefits book. And it doesn't have -- it just
7tells you, gives you a little blurb and then
8tells you where to go and how to apply for
9benefits for any benefit that's in this book.
10 We do a lot of business with different
11 private organizations. We just entered into a
12 partnership with the Library Association and with
13 the USO Transition Group. So we sent them all of
14 our outreach materials so that they can put it in
15 their libraries because we know a lot of veterans
16 visit libraries in their local communities, and
17 particularly in rural areas where they have like
18 little town libraries. And not everyone in the
19 town is rich and has a computer for access to
20 them, but they can actually go to their library.
21 So we've been putting materials in our local
22 libraries.
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1 We also did a partnership this year
2with the Railroad Association which we found out
3wasn't really an association the way we thought
4it was because the railroad is broken up into
5three different entities. So we actually reached
6out to them and we put it in their, at the H.R.
7Department, put these in their veterans'
8packages.
9 And we've been working with a lot of
10 private organizations giving briefings to their
11 veteran employees so that we can outreach to them
12 and say if you know someone, if you're a veteran
13 yourself or if you know a veteran then here's
14 information that we want to share with you. And
15 we want to invite you into the VA.
16 We would like for you to get to know
17 your VA today. We're not the VA of yesterday.
18 We are trying to reach forward of that image. We
19 are here to assist you, to help you, and here's
20 how we can do that.
21 And we really want people to know we
22 care, that we're there for them. And we know
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1that that's a trust-building, you know, we need
2you to trust us. Like Doctor Certain said, it's
3a trust issue. But if you can see that we're
4going out of our way to be there for you, we'll
5meet you where you need us to meet you at. You
6don't always have to come to us, we'll come to
7you. And that is meeting them where they're at,
8giving them the services that they need in the
9community environment that they trust, that they
10 feel safe at.
11 And so that's what we're doing. And
12 we'd love to expand our already great partnership
13 that we have with the community and we'd, say our
14 family, we'd like our family to grow. So, yes,
15 we're very, very interested in doing that. And
16 we will get your material.
17 And if there are things that you want
18 us to maybe create another type of fact sheet or
19 something that just tells just for this
20 community, then we can definitely do that.
21 That's it.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Joe.
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1 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes. Joe Milligan.
2If you can provide me with names of the Nam-POWs
3who are receiving benefits, I can tell you who
4are not.
5 MS. CRENSHAW: How would I --
6 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Take about an hour to
7do that search.
8 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, so you want me to
9give you -- I don't know that I can give you
10 their names.
11 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Probably have to go
12 the other way around.
13 MS. CRENSHAW: Because that's PII.
14 I can tell you how many. I can't
15 simply give you the names.
16 So that, that was one of the
17 recommendations that we talked about. We can't
18 give out personal identifying information unless
19 that person gives us the ability to.
20 MS. CARSON: I was going to ask have
21 they checked the PANI to determine if they can do
22 any type of FOIA request --
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1 MS. CRENSHAW: Any --
2 MS. CARSON: -- for the information.
3Individual and others with disability, but you
4would have to have people sign something to let
5you have the information. But is there anything
6related with a formal data request or something.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: So we have a formal data
8request so we know how many veterans are in
9receipt of -- how many POWs are in receipt of
10 benefits. What we don't, what he's asking is we
11 have the FPOWs that are on our rolls, but he
12 wants to know if the ones that he has in his
13 membership if they match up.
14 So even if he gives me his membership
15 list I would have to do the matching and go back
16 to him and tell him these, here's who's on your
17 list that's not in receipt of benefits. Right.
18 I can't give him any information but I can do a
19 data match.
20 MEMBER MOORE: And Leslie has the --
21 you have the list; right?
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
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1 MEMBER MOORE: The Vietnam list.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
3 MEMBER MOORE: She has the Vietnam
4list, so.
5 MEMBER MILLIGAN: List of what?
6 MEMBER MOORE: Of Nam-POWs.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Oh. Oh, all right.
8 And you know who's -- and so you have
9the list, the list of Nam-POWs. And you also
10 have the list of who's receiving benefits.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
12 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: And then at the
14 conference I made a copy of the list that you had
15 posted as well.
16 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Oh, you did get a
17 copy?
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. Okay, good.
20 So you've got that.
21 MEMBER MOORE: So you made a copy, you
22 mean a hard copy?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: No. Took a picture and
2then typed it out.
3 MEMBER MOORE: Okay. You have
4electronic --
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
6 MEMBER MOORE: -- searchable copy?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
8 MEMBER MOORE: Okay.
9 MS. CRENSHAW: I'm sure Leslie's going
10 to share that with me as soon as we get back.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So that's --
12 MS. WILLIAMS: It's on the Q drive.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's, that's done.
14 So the other one, if that's productive
15 -- run that one first -- if that's productive
16 then we can approach the American Ex-POWs to see
17 if they will release their list. Because they
18 will include Korea and World War II and as well
19 as Vietnam is potentially, the post-9/11 group, -
20 -
21 MEMBER MOORE: Right.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- and that's the
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1separate group. They --
2 MEMBER MOORE: Twenty-nine.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- there's not very
4many of them.
5 MS. CRENSHAW: It would really be
6awesome, and we will work on this, we'll
7definitely take the opportunity to try to get as
8many veterans, FPOWs that we know of that we can
9outreach to. My job is to outreach. And I want
10 to connect with as many.
11 So this year, say, we had 1900 hours
12 of outreach. My goal is not so much the hours of
13 outreach. That's insignificant to me in terms of
14 how many people we touch when we outreach. I'd
15 much rather have a high number of this is how
16 many individuals I reached as opposed to how many
17 man-hours I put into doing this.
18 And if we can, with all the technology
19 that we have and the lists that you have, there's
20 no -- there seems to be really an easy way that
21 we can merge that list. And then we can avail
22 ourselves, like when we say it's PII information,
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1but they have a way of getting information. And
2I'll definitely -- I know for a fact I can't do
3the names but we'll see how far we can push that
4needle to get what we need.
5 Anything else?
6 Well, once again, it's always great to
7stand before us for a chance to meet, and Dr.
8Quarles, you know I'm not leaving you out, but
9it's always nice to stand before a group of fine,
10 distinguished, young gentlemen at your table.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh brother. Don't
12 let your pants catch fire.
13 (Laughter and applause.)
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. We'll
15 have to take a break after that. Let's take 15.
16 We'll get the room rearranged for Jim Williams.
17 Before we take the break, oh, we've
18 got the photographer here. Okay, let's take our
19 tags off and we're going to get shot.
20 (Whereupon, at 2:41 p.m., the meeting
21 recessed, and reconvened at 3:11 p.m.)
22 MR. MARSHALL: Good afternoon,
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1everyone, as we start back.
2 The oldest of five children, Lt. Col.
3James Williams was born in Memphis, Tennessee; is
4United States Air Force (retired). Served April
530th, 1967, to June 30th, 1995. And was a former
6prisoner -- is a former prisoner of war of the
7Vietnam War from May 20th, 1972, to March 28th,
81973. With 48 years of service, 28 being Air
9Force, and 20 in the Education Department, I
10 present to you Mr. Williams to present his
11 service.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Marshall.
13 I know everybody had that great lunch.
14 And I noticed during the last presentation a lot
15 of gentlemen over here and I were falling asleep.
16 So hopefully we'll make this as quick but
17 productive as possible.
18 First I want to thank the committee
19 for allowing me to come and see exactly what
20 everybody's doing. I learned a lot from the VA.
21 In fact, I've been coming here since 1995 right
22 after I retired. But the knowledge that I
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1received today I'm looking forward to taking
2advantage of some of it.
3 As Mr. Marshall said, I went to
4Vietnam 29 June, 1971, after being checked out by
5the Air Corps. And as pointed out, I was on my
6229th combat mission when I got shot down. In
7fact, the day that I got shot down we really
8shouldn't have been flying. I was flying with
9John Marko, who was a fairly new front-seater.
10 And as the process worked you put over here with
11 a new guy, front and back.
12 And May '72 was not a good month for
13 the Triple Nipple. Our squadron commander, as
14 everybody knows Joe Kittinger -- I take that
15 back. Bob Large and Robbie Locke got shot down
16 on 10th of May. Joe Kittinger and Tiny -- we
17 called him Tiny. He was about 6'7", Kevin
18 McGrath. Wondered how he would fit in the
19 backseat. He got shot down on the 11th.
20 At that time Steve Richard had moved
21 up from number three after Bob Large got shot
22 down to lead. We got back on the 20th -- I'll
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1talk about that in a little bit more. Kind of
2give you an overview.
3 And then on the 28th of May, Greg
4Hansen and his back-seater got shot down.
5 So out of Triple Nipple we lost four,
6four crew members.
7 On 20 May of '72 -- in fact I was
8sharing, had 40 days left on my tour, and one of
9the guys got sick and they said, Hey, Jim, will
10 you fly? And I know you're sick and all. And
11 everybody knows what that means. And I was
12 headed to Germany. And I said, Oh sure, no
13 problem; I've got my bags packed.
14 In fact, this ring here that I'm
15 wearing -- and I'll pass it around starting over
16 here -- I got it made up in Laos in the latter
17 part of '71. And I decided for some reason -- I
18 flew with it all the time, but that particular
19 day I took it off. And not knowing, you know,
20 that would be my last mission.
21 What happened, we'd gone out to the
22 aircraft. We were boarding two aircraft. We was
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1carrying four AIM-7's and four AIM-9's. And the
2first one we went to we had a dry failure. So we
3called up Steve and told him to go ahead and
4launch the spare. As we'll get airborne we'll
5join on the tanker.
6 And when we went to the second
7aircraft two of the AIM-7 missiles weren't tuned.
8So we went to the third aircraft which we should
9have just said, hey, this was not our day. We
10 took one and, again, we had two of the AIM-9's
11 that wasn't tuned. But we still said, hey, we're
12 going.
13 And that particular mission that day
14 we was a mid-cap for during Linebacker I. And
15 they had about I guess 100-plus aircraft hitting
16 targets in North Vietnam. So our job was to
17 circle around the guerilla head.
18 If you look up here, our job was to
19 sit up here and then the MIG aircrafts were
20 coming in.
21 Who all saw the movie "Top Gun" with
22 Tom Cruise, and "Red Tails," the Tuskegee Airmen?
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1That was our job, to keep the Soviet aircraft off
2the bombers.
3 So we picked up four that was coming
4toward them. Steve made the decision that we
5would engage. We jettisoned all the tanks to
6have a clean aircraft. If you've ever flown a
7big airplane you know that with those tanks it's
8kind of hard to handle. So we jettisoned the
9tank.
10 And we popped up and we got in the air
11 to air engagement. MIG-21 had rolled in. Steve
12 had rolled in on MIG-21 getting ready to shoot
13 him down. One rolled in on Steve. John and I
14 rolled in on him. And one rolled in on us.
15 Hauled off a air-to-air missile and got us.
16 So as we was coming down, I'd always
17 agreed with John, I said, you know, if anything
18 ever happened to us, you know, we would separate,
19 separate ourselves. You know, we didn't want to
20 -- if you've ever done any hunting like I used to
21 do back in Tennessee -- it's easier to track two
22 rabbits as compared to them separating, so.
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1 So we separated. And we was on the
2ground about five-and-a-half hours before they
3made an attempt. Because we was only like 25
4miles from downtown Hanoi.
5 Let me just -- I talk loud enough.
6 We was only like 25 miles from
7downtown Hanoi. And after we got hit we were
8trying to get feet wet so to get out so the Red
9Crown could pick us up, but we never made it.
10 And so we had to step out of it.
11 And that's when my ordeal started.
12 John and I stayed in contact with each other on
13 the radio but we stayed separated. And then when
14 they finally decided to try to come pick us up
15 they asked us to pop a smoke. And when I popped
16 my smoke there was about 12 Vietnamese, three of
17 them was female with AK-47s. And so I'm standing
18 there with a third egg in my hand, my survivor
19 radio, saying, Hey, if you have anything, drop
20 it. Primarily asking them to drop some gas so
21 they could come down and pick us up.
22 But, unfortunately, I got captured and
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1John got rescued. And so my ordeal started off,
2the first thing they did they stripped me
3completely nude because they know Americans are
4not used to walking around the jungle. So they
5stripped us completely nude. I had leeches all
6over my body. And we were giving the
7international signal for water.
8 And so I went to the first camp and
9I'm sure they had never seen a black man before -
10 - I take that back, back then it was colored --
11 they had never seen a colored pilot before. And
12 so the little kids would run up and I had a
13 little hair then, had a little Afro. So they'll
14 be feeling my hair. And I was moving around,
15 they would start screaming. They would come in
16 and start feeling all over me.
17 And that went on for about two days
18 before they finally turned me over to the Army.
19 So they gave me some pants, some flip-flops, and
20 then off to the Hanoi Hilton.
21 And the Hanoi Hilton when we got
22 released they allowed us to bring a uniform also.
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1This is the uniform I actually wore in captivity
2for 313 days. They had this color, then they had
3a red one, red striper ones. So I decided to
4take this color.
5 This is a cup that we had to eat out
6of. And following them all we, we started off
7about -- I spent about 40 days in solitary
8confinement before they finally put me in the
9room with other guys. So we had a bunch of cups
10 in there, so we had to distinguish cups. So I
11 finally got mine. Ordered that when I got home.
12 But I guess some of you guys see what I had up on
13 the bottom of mine.
14 In fact, I'll pass it around, let you
15 see that, too. No, I'm all right, I'll pass it.
16 But anyway, this is what we used to
17 eat out of. For breakfast we got maybe one
18 morning we'll get some milk and maybe sugar. And
19 then the next day we may get sugar and bread.
20 So, my smart self, I said, well, I
21 like corn flakes. So I would keep my bread and
22 put my sugar on there and, hopefully, I got milk
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1eventually. And so when we did get milk then I
2would break my bread up, sugar bread, so I had
3corn flakes.
4 And then for lunch we got what we
5called weed soup. That was something looked like
6green. And I'll tell you how we had to prepare
7our food, I mean prepare our provided food.
8 And then at dinner we would get what
9we called pumpkin soup. It was a yellowish melon
10 that they used to boil and so on.
11 Now, while we was in the Hanoi Hilton
12 they kept us, what we called the fairly new guys
13 -- and I won't say it because we have young
14 ladies in the room -- but we would call each
15 other. And then they kept the other guys who
16 were shot down. Everett Alvarez at that time was
17 on record being the first guy shot down. He was
18 shot down 1964. And so they kept us separated
19 from those guys.
20 Then, okay, back to preparing our
21 meal. We finally got orders, you know, through
22 communications that the only job that we could
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1do, we had to make coal balls. And I'm sure Tom
2would remember that. That's when we would get
3out and go to a stack of coal. Then we had to
4wet them up. And that's what they used to
5prepare our food, the cooks.
6 And so that was the only type of job
7that we had to do, do during that time.
8 Now this was during Linebacker I. I
9think you got shot down Linebacker II; right?
10 Okay.
11 Now, I got word of 690 -- 661 of us
12 only 15 of us was black. There was six Air Force
13 officers and one Navy officer, and nine enlisted
14 from the different branches of the service. And,
15 unfortunately, Fred Cherry, who was shot down the
16 year that I placed captain in '65, he had been
17 there for eight-and-a-half years. He just passed
18 away last year.
19 And then I read in the news really
20 last year when Tom Madison passed away. And then
21 we had Norm McDaniel, Hermoso Alexander, Norris
22 Charles, Louis Mays, Tony Marshall, and myself.
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1Those were the seven officers.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: There was also a
3Fernando Alexander.
4 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes, Hermoso
5Alexander.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Fernando Alexander,
8yeah. And he was a --
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: B-52 bombardier.
10 MEMBER MILLIGAN: -- B-52 bombardier.
11 So that was the seven of us. And
12 right now we're down to, counting Hermoso, Norris
13 Charles, Tony Marshall, and myself, I think
14 that's the only, there's only four of us left Air
15 Force guys that's still alive.
16 PARTICIPANT: Norm McDaniel.
17 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Norm McDaniel, he --
18 I'm talking about just for Air Force.
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Now, Norm, I will say he
20 was a little different. I think all the POWs
21 know what I'm talking about. Okay. So I will
22 just say that the thing that he did it wasn't
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1acceptable. That's my opinion.
2 MEMBER QUARLES: Acceptable?
3 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Right. It was
4unacceptable.
5 MEMBER QUARLES: Oh, okay.
6 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Because --
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Just don't go there.
8 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yeah.
9 But anyway, and hopefully I get a
10 chance to see him. He's scheduled to -- his
11 flight instructor, you know, college rank, Fred
12 Espy who taught Navy ROTC at Southwest DeKalb.
13 He was his instructor pilot.
14 So we're trying to get -- for some
15 reason he still won't come out and socialize with
16 us.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You're talking about
18 the wrong person.
19 PARTICIPANT: That's a different
20 person.
21 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Norm was at our
22 reunion. Norm's out all the time.
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1 Norm is Air Force and he was at our
2reunion.
3 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, the last few I've
4been to, you know, prior to this year he wouldn't
5show up.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You said Norm
7McDaniels.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, not Norm McDaniels.
9Norris Charles.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yeah.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: I apologize. I
12 apologize, Norm. I apologize. I apologize.
13 But anyway, people around this table
14 know what I'm talking about. And I won't share
15 that with the young ladies.
16 But it was a different experience for
17 me. Growing up my dad used to take me out to the
18 Memphis airport. And we would -- that was a big
19 thing on the weekend, and watch the planes take
20 off. And I said one day that's what I want to
21 do.
22 And I was very fortunate there, I
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1forgot that. Got checked out. Front seat. Flew
2for three years at Holloman Air Force Base,
37/16/78. And then when they got ready to
4transition to the F-14 I got assigned to Seymour
5Johnson. They said they needed to have some
6experience there. So I was at Seymour Johnson
7'78 through '81.
8 I did my helo tour down at Fort Polk.
9And then from Fort Polk I got in an F-14 up at
10 Langley Air Force Base. So I flew there from '83
11 through '89.
12 I did a tour at Alabama State as a PAS
13 and also and I taught, started the Junior ROTC
14 Unit at the high school there.
15 But this is kind of old to you, I mean
16 most. So we have former POWs here and they know
17 what we all went through. But for the people who
18 would like to ask questions, please feel free to
19 ask me. Okay?
20 And things that I can't answer I'm
21 sure somebody around here. Because, you know,
22 and I was really surprised, but maybe I shouldn't
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1have been surprised, but it's like I was talking
2to a gentleman yesterday when I was at Verizon
3Wireless checking on my phone. And I had my POW
4hat on. And he didn't know we had a any black
5POWs from the Vietnam War. Yeah.
6 And I'm sure, a lot of people in this
7room other than the POWs and so on, and Dr. Moore
8because I always go down to Pensacola and I'm
9active in the POW study group down there. In
10 fact, when I saw him I thought he was still
11 working. He told me he had retired.
12 MEMBER MOORE: He was hitting me up for
13 money. That's what he was doing.
14 (Laughter.)
15 MR. WILLIAMS: So I said I don't know
16 who I'm going to have fun with now.
17 But, ladies, and gentleman over here
18 with the headset, if anybody wanted to ask me
19 some questions, please. And also my former POWs.
20 MEMBER KUSHNER: Well, I want to just
21 make a comment. Hal Kushner.
22 I was captured in South Vietnam.
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1Today it's 30 November, it's been 50 years since
2I went down and was captured three days later.
3And we had five black POWs in the camp. There
4were 27 Americans in the camp; five of them were
5black. And one has subsequently died.
6 But I saw three of them three weeks
7ago.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: And they were probably
9enlisted me; right?
10 MEMBER KUSHNER: Yeah, they were all.
11 MR. WILLIAMS: There was only seven
12 black officers.
13 MEMBER KUSHNER: Yeah.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: There was nine -- seven
15 officers and nine enlisted blacks from different
16 branches of the service.
17 Yes, sir.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Go ahead.
19 MEMBER MOORE: Jeff Moore.
20 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
21 MEMBER MOORE: Sometimes the enemy
22 tried to use ranks to separate American POWs.
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1Did the enemy ever try to use that on you?
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh yeah. When I was in
3solitary confinement I thought that was a great
4ordeal for myself those 40 days. But later when
5I got in the room with the other POWs, found out
6they spent two and three years in that same room,
7or longer. And the little torture I went through
8was nothing like what they went through.
9 For example, they used to pull the
10 hair or the leg where they were literally kissing
11 your hands. You know, Johnson was coming, coming
12 on, and so on. But Max, and everybody know Max,
13 Max got word I guess Fred had found out that I
14 was there, and he had got word from his room to
15 my room, you know, what to expect when I go to an
16 interrogation session.
17 In fact, the first interrogation
18 session there was was with a white Russian. And
19 he could speak English fairly well. He asked me,
20 he said, How could you as a colored man want to
21 fight the white man's war when back in the states
22 you can't live or stay where you want to?
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1 And, you know, he was right on point.
2But the way I was brought up the only thing I had
3to do was give name, rank, date of birth, and
4serial number. And we had some people died that
5just give them that information.
6 And like I said, I grew up in Memphis,
7Tennessee. And I think I shared with somebody
8today that when I went to grammar school and high
9school I could not go to a white school. I
10 couldn't go to Memphis State. I had to go to
11 either LeMoyne or go to Nashville, Tennessee
12 State.
13 And back then in the '60s we had to
14 take two years of ROTC. And if you, if you
15 didn't take it your name went into the Draft
16 Board and they sent you a notice. You got a
17 notice from Uncle Sam: Greetings, you've just
18 been drafted.
19 So it wasn't nothing like, you know,
20 20 years teaching at Tucker High School, skipping
21 classes, doing drugs and so on. We stayed in
22 school because we knew that if you miss so many
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1days they would turn your name into the Draft
2Board.
3 So, yes, I went through that. Again,
4like I said, the only thing I'd give was name,
5rank, date of birth, serial number.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: But they, they were
7using this race thing when I was shot down. The
8day after I was shot down that's when Alex
9Alexander was put in the cell with me. And I
10 think they were trying to see if a 6'2" black guy
11 and a 5'9" redheaded white guy would get at it.
12 But we still keep in touch after all
13 these years. It was when the door fell off of
14 our cell due to concussion from the bomb that
15 went off outside the wall they came in
16 threatening us with their rifles because we were
17 saying we're not trying to escape. Because
18 neither one of us would pass.
19 MR. WILLIAMS: People remind me of the
20 Hanoi Hilton, was right downtown Hanoi, North
21 Vietnam. And just kind of picture the prison
22 camp downtown in the middle of Atlanta. And you
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1can imagine us trying to escape, you know. And
2especially, you know, with all of the little
3people milling around.
4 I'll leave it at that and keep going.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, sir.
6 MR. MARSHALL: E. Maquel Marshall with
7VA.
8 If you could, what memories, if you
9care to share, what memories kept you going, the
10 top memories from home that kept you going? And,
11 you know, the first thing that you wanted to do
12 once you got your feet back on U.S. soil?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: What kept me going while
14 I was locked up, I'm an old Methodist guy that
15 was brought up on prayers, you know, that kept me
16 going.
17 And then another one of my best
18 friends was a little old rat that used to come in
19 the room. And I saw him one day, an old habit I
20 had when I was locked up in solitary confinement,
21 I brought that to the room with everybody else.
22 And it started off maybe about six and ended up
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1about 36 of us. Those new guys. But at night
2when we got out the little musty mat, the little
3bamboo mat that we put on the concrete floor, I
4used it to hide my bread. And one night a big
5rectangle about the size of a cat tried to get my
6bread. And it was just a rat and he was tangled
7up in the bedding.
8 Ever since then I started messing with
9it, keeping my bread.
10 But you can imagine, you know, again,
11 a big barn like with no windows. And that's,
12 that's where we stayed. And burned up during the
13 summertime and freezing in the wintertime.
14 And everybody kind of thought we
15 received rice every day. But we only got rice on
16 special days, you know: 4th of July, Valentin's
17 Day, Christmas.
18 In fact, that's where I learned to
19 play poker. We used to take the inside of the
20 bread that had some of the yeast in that piece
21 about the size of my fist. And you would wet it
22 and let it sit and it would blow up about the
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1size of a basketball. So we made our poker chips
2out of that. They allowed us to have checkers
3and cards. And so that's where I learned how to
4play poker.
5 Till I got good I reckon I was about
6$300 in the hole. By the time I got out I think
7I had, I was up about 125-plus. But that's all
8we had to do.
9 And then, and then on Sundays we all
10 used to sing church songs and so on. But then
11 they stopped that. They said there could only be
12 four peoples in the choir. So by the time they
13 left everybody started -- So we'd come in and
14 we'd go, We're going to beat you. We're going to
15 beat you. We're going to beat you. You can't
16 beat us.
17 And they hated for us to sing God
18 Bless America. And so we did that all the time.
19 I know we had one night they tried to
20 take us through a museum and they wanted to take
21 pictures saying that we were war criminals and
22 all that stuff. So we got a rule to say, you
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1know, you can't do that, so.
2 MEMBER KUSHNER: So they let you
3celebrate July the 4th?
4 MR. WILLIAMS: Say again?
5 MEMBER KUSHNER: They let you celebrate
6July the 4th?
7 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh yeah. They would go
8out and kill a pig.
9 MEMBER KUSHNER: On July the 4th?
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, July the 4th,
11 Thanksgiving.
12 MEMBER SORTILLO: Ho Chi Minh's
13 birthday.
14 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah. You see them
15 little pot-bellied pigs running around the camp.
16 The next day, you know, you saw it and said all
17 right.
18 That was about, basically the only
19 time.
20 Now, when the B-52, first B-52 got
21 shot down that was 18 December, 1972. I'll never
22 forget that.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I won't either.
2 (Laughter.)
3 MR. WILLIAMS: We were celebrating Ken
4Johnson, one of the guys out of our squadron,
5that was his one year. And all of a sudden all
6hell went on, bombing and so on and so on. And
7so the next day they came around the guard said
8we shoot down a B-52. And we said, sheesh. And
9those were not the same words we used.
10 At that time B-52's weren't allowed to
11 go up north. But they had President Nixon kick
12 off Linebacker II and there were bombs dropping.
13 That's what brought them back to the negotiation
14 table.
15 October of '72 when Henry Kissinger
16 came over and said peace is at hand. And that's
17 when they allowed us to meet with the older guys.
18 Because prior to that, you know, they kept us
19 separated. When they was outside the campsite
20 outside, you know, we was locked up. Then they
21 would come back in and we would get out.
22 Somebody asked me earlier what did you
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1use as far as personal articles. They gave us
2one small toothbrush which had to last about four
3months; a small tube of toothpaste like you see
4the ones you buy at Walmart, the little
5combinations.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Except it had a lead
7tube.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: With a lead liner.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: And then they gave us
11 like a -- this was while we were in solitary
12 confinement -- like a three gallon bucket and a
13 sheet of brown paper about 12 square. And that
14 had to last you two days. So if you had to go to
15 the restroom, that was it, buddy.
16 We were allowed out about twice a
17 week, you know, where we would go out. And they
18 had community showers. It was this big concrete
19 filled with water. And that's where you would
20 bathe yourself, try to wash your clothes and so
21 on.
22 I was the PT guy because the Army grad
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1degree was physical education played more sports
2back in the day. So I was the exercise guy for
3the whole room.
4 And movie night was a Friday night.
5And what movie night was, somebody would get up
6and tell about a movie they had seen. And had
7one guy tell about "The Godfather." And I had
8never seen "The Godfather." The way he said, I
9said, man, I got to go see that when I got out.
10 And I, after I went, he was right on
11 point.
12 (Laughter.)
13 MR. WILLIAMS: And then Sunday, like I
14 said, on Sunday that was church day. When we
15 went to an interrogation session, you know, we
16 would steal their pens, paper. And, again,
17 that's where we made our notes, like I say,
18 inside the bread and made our poker chips. So
19 Christmas we made our little Christmas gifts
20 outside inside the original bread. You know, we
21 would let it set.
22 And the only thing we basically did
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1the rest of the time, got up in the morning, had
2to go out and make coal balls for them to cook
3our food. And the rest of the time we were just
4playing cards.
5 And was organizing like a fighter
6squad. Col. Kittinger was our SRO. And it was
7broken up into different squadrons. And we all
8had different duties we were supposed to take
9care of.
10 Okay, I know it's getting, getting
11 late, but a couple more questions. I know one
12 young lady that has a question.
13 MS. CARSON: I'm Laurine Carson. I
14 just want to say thank you so much for sharing
15 your story.
16 Some of us for the times that we've
17 grown up in and have not really had that
18 exposure, we weren't even aware of the fact that
19 I would say when you first began I did not know
20 that during that period of time that there was
21 some integration of the races in the services and
22 the prisoners of war. Because you don't, you
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1know, you don't hear that in the history.
2 It's really a very serious story. But
3also to get a better feel for how much legacy
4between all of you guys that's just waiting to be
5shared. So I was sitting here and I was trying
6to think if I take this back is that, you know,
7it's an opportunity here, or missed opportunity,
8if we could have gotten some of the folks who are
9maybe some of your employees, some of the
10 employees who work on the point to come down and
11 hear your stories, you know.
12 I think it adds a lot of value to see
13 a, you know, to be able to speak with you
14 directly and to remember why we do this job.
15 So thank you very much. Thank you all
16 for your service.
17 MR. WILLIAMS: That's right. I was
18 trying to think of the, the lady who was the
19 director of the hospital our first year. Anybody
20 remember? Black female, she was older.
21 MS. CARSON: Ms. Wiggins?
22 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, Ms. Wiggins.
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1 And in fact our first year here I
2brought my credentials from Tucker High School.
3And I was the guest speaker for the people in the
4hospital there. So, I've been here several times.
5 And Rhonda always gave me an
6invitation to come out for POW-MIA Day. And
7sometimes like I've given this presentation a
8couple times there.
9 But I enjoy it. I spent 20 years at
10 Tucker High School. I went around to the -- in
11 fact, I was a member of the Tucker Optimists
12 Club. And I joined that back when I was in
13 Montgomery. And I go to the Kiwanis Club, Elks.
14 And around a lot of the high schools, charities
15 in the area, so in order to share my experience
16 because, like I said, we was -- I didn't know
17 till, like, I started adding up people.
18 And some of you may have seen my
19 picture over there on the wall over in the
20 hospital. They have a wall over there that we
21 call the Georgia POWs. Who all, who all has seen
22 that?
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1 MS. CARSON: I have.
2 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. But I'm the only
3one up there. In fact I'm the only black Air
4Force Nam fighter pilot POW in the state of
5Georgia and Tennessee, where I'm from. Like I
6say, there's only four other Air Force guys left.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: James, I want to --
8you mentioned Fred Cherry.
9 MR. WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.
10 MEMBER MILLIGAN: And I want you to say
11 a few words about Fred.
12 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah, because you know,
13 you see his picture right here.
14 MEMBER MOORE: Yes. He was in, what,
15 seven-and-a-half years.
16 MR. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
17 MEMBER MOORE: A long time.
18 MR. WILLIAMS: 22 November, 1965 until
19 --
20 MEMBER MOORE: Yeah.
21 MR. WILLIAMS: What we had to do,
22 before you get into this, what we had to do, we
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1had to learn, we was told we had to learn at
2least five guys' names and when they was shot
3down and when they was there. And I got to ask
4among all the flight officers.
5 They said I could remember things.
6 Go ahead.
7 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Okay. I had been a
8POW I guess about two years by the time I ran
9into Fred. You know, not face to face. I never
10 actually lived in a cell with him but I was in
11 the cell right next to him for a long time. He
12 was in solitary confinement. So, and had been,
13 been that way for a long time.
14 And Fred, Fred really, really went
15 through some bad treatment phases, part of it
16 because he was colored. And, you know, they, they
17 tried to use race against him, as you were
18 saying. You know, asked questions, Why do you
19 want to fight for America? You know, that's a
20 white man's world, not a black man's world.
21 And Fred's answer to them was always,
22 I'm not black, I'm an American.
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1 And it's one thing for a white man to
2hear another white man say, Well, we're all one
3country. But, but to be in the middle of Hanoi
4in a middle of a war, hearing a man that had been
5a POW for as long as he was say to the enemy that
6he's not a black man, he's an American, that's a
7whole different, you know, different thing.
8 And every time he said it they kicked
9the living crap out of him.
10 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh yeah.
11 MEMBER MILLIGAN: And the next time he
12 went before them he'd say the same thing.
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Same thing.
14 MEMBER MILLIGAN: He would not differ,
15 would not.
16 And I have always considered Fred
17 Cherry my own personal hero. He made that big an
18 impression on me.
19 MEMBER MOORE: To follow on, if anybody
20 wants to learn more about what they've been
21 talking about, I would recommend to you the book
22 "Two Souls Indivisible." And it's about the
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1enemy's attempt to use race to separate Fred
2Cherry and Porter Halyburton.
3 And they basically threw them in the
4cell because they knew that this northern black
5senior Air Force officer and this junior white
6Naval officer would just explode. And they would
7use, be able to use that to divide the POWs.
8It's "Two Souls Indivisible."
9 MEMBER KUSHNER: I'd like to make a
10 comment about that.
11 I told you there were five black
12 enlisted men at the POW camp, which was very
13 small. There were 27 people went through there,
14 and 12 survived out of 27. And early on the five
15 black POWs, the Vietnamese segregated us and put
16 us in different hooches, which we built, and used
17 different indoctrination techniques.
18 And we would have none of it, the
19 black guys or the white guys. And it just didn't
20 work for them. They did that for about three
21 months and then they gave up and moved us all in
22 together.
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1 MR. WILLIAMS: Fred went through the
2same thing as John McCain went through. And I
3had the opportunity to meet him while he was
4locked up, and a couple other times after we got
5out. And but, you know, Fred got injured when he
6ejected from the 105. Same thing with John
7McCain. And they just did surgery on them
8without anesthetics. And Fred, that's why he
9couldn't go back to flying because one of his arm
10 was a little shorter than the other.
11 And he was a hell of a 105 pilot. But
12 you had to have both arms to operate it. Same
13 way with John McCain. And they both made it.
14 Both went through the same type operation.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, thank you.
16 (Applause.)
17 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, in closing, again
18 I want to thank everyone for giving me this
19 opportunity to share my story as a former POW. I
20 usually get into more detail about different
21 things. Of course, I have a different audience
22 type.
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1 And I wanted to keep it kind of clean
2for the ladies.
3 (Laughter.)
4 MR. WILLIAMS: And I, and Tom, Tom and
5I we was in the same cell together in Hanoi.
6I've always took care of him when I went down to
7Pensacola, Florida. And I look forward to seeing
8all you guys real soon.
9 God bless you and God bless America.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, thank you. Thank
11 you so much.
12 (Applause.)
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Does anybody else have
14 any particular questions about anything here?
15 Hopefully everybody got an opportunity to ask.
16 I'll make it real quick. This is a
17 picture of me being released from North Vietnam.
18 You see I had a little hair there.
19 And we was at H. Ross Perot house when
20 I took the picture with President Nixon. And then
21 we was at a POW convention in Washington, D.C.,
22 you know, took a picture with the Reagans, Nancy.
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1 And this here is my little collage.
2Me when I first came into the military. You can
3see how I kind of looked buff back in the day.
4 (Laughter.)
5 MR. WILLIAMS: This here, this picture
6here, if you all get up to Dobbins Air Force Base
7they have a living memorial up there. They go
8from World War I all the way up to the Vietnam
9War. And I was a guest speaker for the World War
10 II guys when they was unveiling their plaque.
11 And not knowing that they was unveiling the
12 plaque for me representing the POWs.
13 So if you ever get a chance to go to
14 Dobbins Air Force Base you'll see that living
15 memorial up there.
16 And this here is a letter, a picture
17 of North Vietnam with President Obama. That's
18 signed. I got that framed.
19 And this here is a certificate I got
20 from the governor and the commissioner who is the
21 chairman of the state level partner.
22 I guess that's about it.
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1 And, oh yeah, and I know everybody who
2got released they'd remember this. But this, this
3is my uniform that we all wore when we got
4released. Part of the Paris Peace Agreement was
5that we were all being -- the sick and the
6wounded would go home first and then all the
7guys. So here's 15, 15 days a 141 would come in
8and pick up the guys.
9 So Tom and I then at that time were
10 part of the last group. And we all got released
11 28th of March of '73.
12 And after I got I got checked out back
13 in a fighter. And just my health. And I flew
14 flying for Air Force in F-15 up at Langley.
15 Everybody probably remembers the heavy ones. You
16 know, you put that on that's like putting a brick
17 on your head.
18 And these were the Cadillac shoes.
19 Stacy Adams that went with the, went with the
20 uniform. And there was a little bag that we had
21 they gave us. And this is my name in Vietnamese.
22 And this is my helmet bag for
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1different squadrons after I got back that I flew.
2I had 18 different assignments, you know, flight
3assignments, you know, once I got back.
4 So my enjoyable flight was going from
5the airport to fly the F-15. That's like going
6from a Volkswagen to a Mercedes.
7 Again, thank you very much.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.
9 (Applause.)
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: We're not going to
11 do a tour of the building because there's not
12 much to see. We'll leave early and meet about a
13 quarter to 7:00 for the trip to the Capital
14 Grille.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: Dinner reservations are
16 at 7:15.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, okay. The
18 schedule says 6:30.
19 So meet at 6:30. We'll head out to
20 make you safe.
21 (Whereupon, at 3:58 p.m., the meeting
22 was adjourned.)
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A additional 18:12,15 AIM-7 180:7 163:9 A- 1:9 19:5 20:12 24:2 27:19 AIM-7's 180:1 annual 152:13,14 156:8 a.m 1:10 4:2 63:17,18 30:4 80:15 82:20 AIM-9's 180:1,10 annually 153:18 135:22 83:19 93:3 125:20 air 7:21 151:22 177:4,8 answer 11:14 26:2 AAA 136:21 Additionally 123:5 178:5 181:10,11 45:22 93:16 107:19 ability 10:11 12:10 125:15 128:11 186:12 187:14,18 120:13 190:20 207:21 47:20 125:8 171:19 address 116:7 147:6 189:1 190:2,10 206:3 answered 45:1 48:14 able 4:13 9:15 14:18 addressed 87:10 206:6 209:5 212:6,14 Anthony 2:4 3:6 25:17 15:15 30:9,12 31:15 adds 204:12 213:14 35:3 47:22 54:11,16,20 adequately 48:14 air-to-air 181:15 anticipate 69:8 60:14,21 61:2 77:14 adhere 147:22 airborne 180:4 antiquated 74:1 77:22 79:8 85:7,11 Adjourn 3:22 aircraft 179:22,22 180:7 Antonio 27:10 90:1 95:6 101:14 adjourned 214:22 180:8,15 181:1,6 anxiety 38:19 104:9 119:20 141:18 Administration 112:7 aircrafts 180:19 anxious 159:17 142:16 149:7 166:22 administrative 65:21 Airmen 107:10 180:22 anybody 20:5 90:15 204:13 209:7 admit 159:21 airplane 181:7 113:13 191:18 204:19 above-entitled 63:16 adult 108:21 airport 189:18 214:5 208:19 211:13 135:21 advance 5:19 16:7 AK-47s 182:17 anybody's 28:3 49:2 absolute 34:1 23:11 122:13 Al 4:11 5:17 anymore 166:1 absolutely 25:5 31:17 advanced 59:18 Alabama 190:12 anyway 20:6 162:6 33:7 64:5 advantage 65:11 178:2 Alex 195:8 184:16 188:9 189:13 absorbed 140:15 advertise 145:21 146:2 Alexander 186:21 apart 102:6 acceptable 188:1,2 146:18 187:3,5,7 195:9 apologize 5:18 189:11 accepted 36:1 advice 31:16 align 144:14 189:12,12,12 access 138:21 139:4,4 Advisory 1:3 2:10 aligned 142:4,6 150:15 app 96:19 139:6 143:21 148:13 advocate 2:12 31:21 alive 187:15 apparently 53:19 149:7,9 150:17 41:3 44:4 46:10,15 Allegiance 4:5,6 appeal 15:21 23:7,11 168:19 54:5 59:8 84:22 85:20 allotted 47:9 27:13 28:20 30:3 accuracy 73:7 advocate's 54:21 allow 20:20 141:18 80:22 81:4,6,9,17 accurate 148:7 advocates 45:8 46:9 allowed 14:7 183:22 86:13 112:1 116:10 accurately 69:14 85:10 86:7,18 144:22 198:2 200:10,17 appealed 28:8 29:16 ACE 47:20 48:6 165:12,14 201:16 appeals 21:1,4,5,16,20 acknowledge 27:2 Affairs 1:1 64:11 allowing 177:19 22:6,13,17 23:12,17 acknowledging 104:8 afford 141:9 allows 9:9 15:22 16:1 24:4 27:15,18 30:3 acquaintance 27:9 Africa 103:8 67:7 69:16 95:7 67:10 79:11,17,18,21 acres 115:16,16 Afro 183:13 alternate 2:3 142:15 80:2,4 81:8,10,19 act 21:6 144:17 afternoon 135:17 136:2 143:2 82:1,3,5,14 83:15,21 Acting 2:6 59:3,4 63:21 154:22 176:22 Alvarez 185:16 84:2,2,12,18,21 85:5 action 127:6 143:8 age 130:10 Ambardekar 46:21 47:7 85:11 89:18 156:8 Agency 18:15 75:14 ambulate 58:6 appetizer 136:13 actionable 128:12 agenda 4:8,14 America 150:3 198:18 applause 34:21 63:5 actions 13:8 agent 33:19 207:19 211:9 176:13 210:16 211:12 active 8:4,15 17:5 95:20 ages 47:21 American 160:19 161:6 214:9 111:17 191:9 aging 56:9 166:7 174:16 192:22 apple 134:22 135:3 activities 140:20 143:9 ago 6:14 51:6 53:16 207:22 208:6 applicable 97:18 150:14 152:8 59:16 66:2 107:11 Americans 183:3 192:4 application 96:19 activity 66:17 155:3 156:17 192:7 amount 14:8 73:18 applied 165:19 actual 133:3 agree 31:17 83:14 110:7 153:11 applies 121:21 AD 138:9 119:16 analyst 2:7 122:20 apply 58:20 166:19 Adams 213:19 agreed 97:4 181:17 123:6 168:8 adapted 4:8 Agreement 213:4 analyze 152:11 appointments 37:11 adaptive 11:6 ahead 47:8 116:3 127:1 anchored 100:18 appreciate 107:3 add 27:19 30:4 64:2 127:9,15 154:1 180:3 and/or 12:11 36:17 158:18 81:2 192:18 207:6 anesthetics 210:8 approach 71:4 97:22 adding 67:21,22 205:17 aid 53:17 54:7 55:4,6 angry 155:4 174:16 addition 7:9 8:17 11:10 56:19 57:5,20 58:13 Anna 2:8 3:12 136:3 appropriations 97:4 12:7 25:11 42:6 66:5 58:17 59:11 65:13 149:4 approval 50:13 83:1 151:9,17 160:17 87:10 anniversary 101:5 approve 113:18
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approved 32:20 58:13,18 59:11 65:13 163:17 166:20 172:15 began 203:19 approximately 84:11 87:10 153:16,17 174:10 177:1 178:11 beginning 27:1 28:11 April 8:22 89:4 159:3 attended 36:3 162:20 178:15,22 181:21 70:11 151:13 177:4 attending 156:19 183:10,10 185:20 begins 158:12,12 area 94:5 104:1,2 attention 52:21 53:12 193:21 194:13 196:12 behalf 88:14 107:14 205:15 attorney 85:20 86:2 200:13,21 202:2 138:14 areas 168:17 attorneys 85:11,14,16 204:6 205:12 210:9 believe 8:22 44:3 74:18 Arlington 119:19 attributes 126:21 212:3 213:12 214:1,3 74:20 120:2 142:7 121:14 audience 157:22 back-seater 179:4 beneficial 15:10 44:2 arm 210:9 158:14 210:21 backed 24:22 benefit 19:6 32:16 34:1 arms 210:12 August 13:16,16 21:7 background 35:14 53:18 54:17 55:5,10 Army 123:9 151:22 36:12 backing 141:5 57:22 58:4 73:3 143:3 183:18 201:22 Augusta 7:20 backlog 77:6 92:13 148:10 155:16 167:2 ARP 6:15 authority 85:21 94:1 167:4 168:9 arrive 14:12 authorization 126:3 backlogged 126:22 benefits 1:10 2:4 3:4,20 articles 161:4 201:1 authorized 43:13 127:2,8 7:5 8:5 9:21 11:15 asked 88:18 100:17 120:11 backseat 178:19 32:20 34:11 38:15 123:13 159:9 182:15 Auto 15:12 backyard 105:6 44:19,20 48:7 54:11 193:19 200:22 207:18 automatic 62:16 bad 142:5 207:15 57:1 58:20 59:11 60:1 asking 13:3 172:10 automatically 16:4 bag 155:16 156:4 60:2 65:13 66:7 67:22 182:20 automation 16:19 213:20,22 72:10,13 74:19 75:6 asleep 177:15 avail 175:21 bags 155:11 179:13 76:8 78:17 82:3 86:21 assessed 41:12 42:2 availabilities 120:15 balls 186:1 203:2 88:17 102:21,22 assessments 76:14 availability 51:18 bamboo 197:3 103:2 104:5 109:6 assigned 19:11 35:19 available 13:13 20:17 bank 17:2 110:1 112:8 114:2 39:4 52:18 190:4 30:11 37:14,15 43:9 bark 141:16 137:9,14,16 139:16 Assignment 3:10 47:15 60:3 108:5 barn 197:11 139:22 145:21 147:2 assignments 214:2,3 111:13 133:21 166:6 Barracks 110:13 147:9 148:8 152:16 assist 39:17 109:6 average 14:16 27:6 barriers 10:2 152:17,18,22 153:10 169:19 29:4,5 34:8 68:22 BAS 133:4,9 137:15,16 157:6 158:5,6 162:12 assistance 137:9,14,16 71:15 92:10 94:7 138:12 139:22 140:2 162:13 165:19 166:16 139:16,22 143:4 129:8,14,16 131:9 140:3,16,18 141:12 166:19 168:3,6,9 151:11,21 153:10 136:16 141:22 153:8 171:3 172:10,17 157:7 averaging 23:14 27:5 Base 7:22 190:2,10 173:10 assistant 2:5,8 4:15 5:2 avoid 10:20 212:6,14 Benning 7:21 43:7 50:11 64:20 avoided 15:3 based 7:10 9:7,21 best 15:9 26:2 84:15 65:18 107:13 137:10 award 43:12 126:2 12:13 22:12 30:7 87:13 101:22 107:19 139:18 awarded 28:12 57:12,12,22 58:4 59:1 155:1 158:15 196:17 assisting 9:22 aware 35:14 123:21 71:9,11 74:16 82:18 better 20:16 33:3 76:8 associated 85:14,17 125:16 133:10 146:7 83:10 126:20 127:18 78:17 98:11 142:11 102:21 203:18 162:19 149:7 161:2 204:3 association 103:22 awesome 163:13 175:6 basically 9:13 54:14 biannu 152:13 168:12 169:2,3 80:4,9 83:13 114:22 biannual 152:13,15 Asst 2:3 B 116:17 148:16 199:18 big 9:5 12:19 31:1 assumed 141:22 B-52 187:9,10 199:20 202:22 209:3 129:11 134:13 158:14 Atlanta 1:10 2:3,5,12 199:20 200:8 basis 93:7 123:19 167:9,16 168:4 181:7 3:3,20 5:3,16 6:8 11:3 B-52's 200:10 124:15 125:4 126:12 189:18 197:4,11 13:14 24:16 25:15 back 14:10 17:13 32:2 147:17 152:13 201:18 208:17 35:4,19 44:5,11,12 36:7 39:21 42:19 basketball 198:1 biggest 94:2,4 138:2 47:1 49:9 50:18 63:3 43:10 45:22 50:5 53:6 bat 77:8 151:15 64:19 136:3,15 54:9,11,16 56:13 bathe 201:20 bikes 154:16,19,19 195:22 60:17 63:14,20 64:11 batteries 136:19 bill 21:18 114:4 attempt 94:10 182:3 74:14 76:21 80:8 battery 136:8 billion 7:4,6 209:1 94:15 98:22 99:20,22 BDN 74:20,20 75:2,4 birth 194:3 195:5 attend 47:22 59:19 102:11 103:15 106:15 beat 198:14,15,15,16 birthday 199:13 159:9 116:8 118:8 126:1 beautiful 99:17 bit 5:15,22 8:6 14:2 attendance 53:18 54:7 130:1 135:10,18,19 bed 102:16,19 25:19 34:6 45:16 55:4,6 56:19 57:6,21 138:11 140:9 141:8 bedding 197:7 48:20 51:22 52:4 61:8
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decided 179:17 182:14 deserve 104:5 112:10 dimmed 102:19 137:21 138:5,16 184:3 designated 2:2 143:1 dinner 136:12 185:8 151:12 decipher 15:17 designed 21:13 214:15 DMV 113:14,14 decision 11:20,21 12:6 desire 87:19 dinosaur 140:8,10 Dobbins 212:6,14 12:9,12 13:5,15 17:7 desk 61:17 87:15 direct 161:2 docket 81:9 135:16 23:1,2 26:20 27:4 desktop 79:6 directly 8:3 41:1,6,9,15 Doctor 170:2 28:6,6,18 29:14 30:7 detail 210:20 41:16,21 45:7 46:15 doctor's 118:20 40:5 54:12,21 67:15 detailed 33:22 42:8 47:7 68:13 78:20 doctors 45:17 68:1 70:5,5,10,13,14 detailing 21:19 83:15 108:7 118:7 document 119:4 73:5 76:16,19 80:5,6 details 29:13 204:14 documents 15:3 77:19 80:11,13 81:11 82:6,7 determination 57:5 director 2:3,5,6,8,11 79:9 82:14,16,19 83:9,10 82:15 113:17 5:2 59:3 63:22 65:18 DoD 76:12 95:1,6,22 83:13,14 86:6,12,14 determine 40:9 54:15 66:15 107:13 137:10 113:12 117:2 121:22 126:1,2,5,8 168:1 55:11 68:11 82:15 138:11 139:18 156:17 160:8,17 181:4 83:7,8 96:10 115:7 204:19 DoDi 96:8 decisions 20:21 171:21 directory 143:22 doing 18:11 22:10 decrease 16:18 20:14 Detroit 49:15 65:1 disabilities 8:15 19:9 33:15 35:7 41:19 dedicated 109:9 develop 28:22 34:12 19:12,15,17 26:13 66:18 75:15 79:10 dedication 5:11 94:8,10 141:17 55:9,16 56:21 57:3,17 84:6,10 87:16 106:9 Defense 96:10 119:21 developed 11:22 47:4 66:1 76:15,18 77:1 123:11 142:5 145:10 definitely 32:16 61:2 52:1 69:7 150:22 82:8 149:5 157:12,13 139:14 148:1 154:14 developing 46:19 70:12 disability 8:5,14 9:21 159:8,11 170:11,15 162:22 164:8 170:20 development 13:8 12:22 13:2 19:11 175:17 177:20 191:13 175:7 176:2 39:18 41:9 42:2,4,16 20:15 26:18 28:13 194:21 degree 73:15 202:1 42:17 50:7 61:19 37:9 41:4 45:16 48:7 dollars 18:15 98:8 Deinstadt 150:6 69:22 70:2 89:17 55:14,15,18 56:15,16 Donner 44:8 DeKalb 188:12 94:14 125:17,19 56:22 57:13 58:4,5,20 door 76:20 195:13 delayed 133:6 131:9 59:1 66:9 70:22 71:5 DOS 74:15 delighted 89:22 Devlin 138:12 72:13 73:3,15 75:22 double 58:11 163:10 deliver 98:9 DFO 2:2,3 91:4 142:13 94:21 103:13 156:19 downstairs 37:3,14 Delivery 74:19 diabetes 55:17 58:16 172:3 40:21 demand 126:8 158:10 diagnosis 45:15 disabled 6:22 downtown 149:11 demands 142:17 dial 11:13 disabling 57:13 58:5 182:4,7 195:20,22 dementia 59:18 dialogue 134:1 59:1 Dr 46:21 47:7 132:13 demographic 148:7 DIC 106:10,13 disagree 22:22 23:22 160:1 165:12 176:7 149:2 died 192:5 194:4 83:20 191:7 demographics 150:16 Diego 5:5 disagreement 23:1 draft 43:4 91:9 194:15 denial 29:14 differ 208:14 80:7 195:1 denied 28:6 53:16,17 difference 24:16 30:16 discharge 76:4,5,16 drafted 194:18 54:2,6 31:22 32:5 110:22 111:2 116:6 drawn 23:13 dent 103:5 different 7:19 9:12 12:7 119:4 DRC 34:7 138:3 dental 20:8 19:14 24:20 64:17 discuss 37:17 49:11 drew 156:1 deny 23:3 30:10 55:12 70:3 83:10 96:15 134:2 drill 131:3,14,16 132:1 department 1:1 64:10 99:14 101:19 120:15 discussion 3:17 132:10 drive 92:14 135:8 96:9 113:4 119:10,21 145:12 148:19,22 disease 58:15 137:16 174:12 169:7 177:9 149:9 168:10 169:5 diseases 19:18,18 57:6 driven 79:12 departments 119:15 186:14 187:20 188:19 distinction 84:13 driving 129:11 dependency 38:14 189:16 192:15 203:7 distinguish 184:10 DRO 82:10 dependent 108:18,22 203:8 208:7,7 209:16 distinguished 176:10 drop 49:1 182:19,20 118:18 209:17 210:20,21 distribute 125:7 127:9 dropped 62:9,18 dependents 8:11 110:6 214:1,2 166:22 dropping 200:12 110:8 differently 69:13 distributed 9:6 124:18 drugs 194:21 depending 43:8 50:22 difficult 101:21 distributes 128:12 druthers 87:9 110:4,6 117:10 119:8 difficulty 10:22 48:2 distribution 125:1 dry 180:2 120:3 58:9 126:16 130:15 132:6 Dublin 44:5 deputy 4:15 59:3,4 digestive 20:7 divide 209:7 due 22:18 48:1 56:15 63:21 156:18 digitally 14:6 division 7:12,12 8:13 195:14 describe 8:21 diligently 93:5 9:19 10:13,15 137:19 duplicate 47:19
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duration 105:17 72:6 73:4 102:13 146:16 147:14 148:5 44:14 56:12 68:16 duties 203:8 123:22 174:4 148:9 149:20 73:11 80:16,19 82:18 duty 5:5 8:4,15 111:17 electronically 32:14,15 ensuring 40:4 149:18 82:20 83:1,6,11,19 DVA's 149:18 150:13 40:19 72:7 78:4 ENT 19:18 72:1 125:20,22 129:22 157:1 eligibility 111:16 113:6 entered 78:20 168:11 Ex-POWs 160:19 161:6 113:17 116:2 enterprise 71:4 72:21 174:16 E eligible 13:4,7 16:10 97:21 138:18 exact 17:3 E 2:3 196:6 17:9 53:14 55:20 56:5 entire 97:8 exactly 58:20 61:10 e-benefits 139:5 168:1 108:15,15,16,17,20 entirely 28:7 117:9 139:8 166:9 eager 156:2 109:1 111:3 116:9,13 entities 144:13 169:5 167:10 177:19 ear 136:22 eliminate 16:13,21 entitled 9:21 exam 12:2,10 38:12 earlier 22:9 43:6 67:15 eliminating 19:3 entity 153:3 42:18,18 64:12 68:14 87:8 92:1 98:17 Elks 205:13 environment 48:19 68:18,20,21 83:8 116:18 132:15 164:15 ELLIOTT 1:20 50:17 52:8 123:17 examination 38:10 47:5 200:22 email 41:2,17 45:21 124:15 126:4 170:9 48:1,7 59:19 68:13 early 34:14 209:14 46:9 47:6,6,7 54:4,21 EP 41:12 72:15,16 75:22 76:12 214:12 116:7 133:22 161:5 era 101:20 examinations 45:11 earned 104:11 embalming 115:9 error 80:11 47:1,20 76:9,11,22 ease 38:19 48:12,15 emblem 112:20 errors 16:14 examined 28:16 148:13 emblems 120:9 escape 195:17 196:1 examiner 56:13 easier 20:22 46:14 emergency 103:10 especially 42:14 56:8 example 53:15 124:20 49:22 161:22 181:21 emphasis 151:1,5 116:12 196:2 124:22 126:21 127:20 easily 52:10 166:2 employed 10:4 Espy 188:12 129:2 131:6 149:8 easing 59:22 employee 37:4 128:15 establish 16:4 125:13 193:9 easy 149:13 159:22 128:20,21 144:20 exams 12:4 73:7 167:1 175:20 employees 6:1,18,19 established 16:9,15 exceeds 27:10 eat 135:20 184:5,17 6:21 11:13 13:15 69:19 124:16 125:2,5 excellent 159:1 161:20 economic 7:7 52:11 69:17 85:6 87:2 128:14 140:1,17 162:16 economy 7:5 11:1 104:13 106:16 130:20 establishes 21:16 exception 18:4 110:3 edit 153:6 169:11 204:9,10 Establishment 15:12 Excuse 136:17 editor 161:10 employment 6:12 9:18 estate 33:17,19 exercise 202:2 educated 33:11 102:22 9:22 10:2,3,9 et 73:15 existed 162:5 educating 76:7 enacted 81:21,22 88:15 etiology 55:17 57:7 exists 62:19,20 education 75:6 147:4 97:14 58:15 exit 76:6 177:9 202:1 enactment 21:21 22:2,3 Europe 150:4,5 expand 170:12 educational 6:15 encourage 144:2 evaluate 20:22 expanding 13:12 effect 33:2 146:12 evaluating 20:15 110:17 effects 57:13 58:5 59:1 encouraged 22:20 evaluation 73:17 expect 193:15 efficiency 66:13 67:1 ended 196:22 evaluations 11:5 12:22 expecting 38:11 73:7 97:10 99:19 endocrine 20:8 event 10:21 94:20 experience 189:16 efficient 75:3 98:17 ends 60:4 153:19 162:20 190:6 205:15 99:12 enemy 192:21 193:1 events 25:20 113:21 expert 107:18 efficiently 98:7 124:10 208:5 146:6 155:1 expertise 82:13 124:13 130:14 enemy's 209:1 eventually 28:12 explain 38:8 effort 95:22 96:1 98:11 engage 144:10 181:5 110:16 119:16 185:1 explaining 38:6 141:13 142:8 engagement 181:11 Everett 185:16 explains 30:15 114:22 egg 182:18 engineer 102:13 everybody 20:1 22:16 117:8 eight 7:19 34:9 England 150:7,9 31:15 103:1 107:19 explode 209:6 eight-and-a-half 186:17 English 193:19 155:12 177:13 178:14 exposed 29:1 either 23:3,8,22 29:15 enhancements 34:7 179:11 193:12 196:21 exposure 28:16 203:18 37:3 45:1 58:11 81:14 enjoy 63:3 205:9 197:14 198:13 211:15 external 19:1 165:3 114:2 126:5 131:4 enjoyable 214:4 213:1,15 externally 165:6,12,16 194:11 200:1 enlightening 97:9 everybody's 78:10 extra 56:6 ejected 210:6 enlisted 123:9 186:13 177:20 extracted 18:9,16 election 22:18 192:9,15 209:12 everyone's 35:14 extracting 17:20 electronic 9:15 14:4,20 ensure 37:19 39:6 100:16 extraction 16:20 18:1 15:9 17:12 41:10 69:12,13 76:6 86:3 evidence 12:13 24:3 extreme 56:16 52:13 61:6 67:5,6 127:10 128:20 130:13 28:22 30:4,10,11 eye 19:17
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eyeball 161:22,22 68:8 93:3 94:15,16 first 29:17 32:6 38:18 99:10,18 158:10 95:13 39:21 40:13 61:22 208:19 F feeding 95:3 82:5,8 99:13 107:11 followed 43:6 F-14 190:4,9 feel 38:9 41:18 133:21 113:20 114:22 117:18 following 184:6 F-15 213:14 214:5 141:6 148:16,17 117:18 120:19,19 food 185:7,7 186:5 fabulous 139:19 170:10 190:18 204:3 122:16 125:11,18 203:3 face 32:9,9 86:16,16 feeling 183:14,16 126:13 153:1 154:5 foot 102:16 145:19,19 207:9,9 feet 102:16 182:8 159:8,14,21 162:1,11 force 7:22 31:20 151:22 facilitate 151:2 196:12 174:15 177:18 180:2 177:4,9 186:12 facilities 7:11 19:2,4 fell 140:3 195:13 183:2,8 185:17 187:15,18 189:1 162:14 felt 105:2 193:17 196:11 199:20 190:2,10 206:4,6 facility 5:20 17:15,21 female 182:17 204:20 203:19 204:19 205:1 209:5 212:6,14 fact 50:12,16 51:15 Fernando 187:3,7 212:2 213:6 213:14 72:8 170:18 176:2 Fiduciary 65:8 fiscal 24:12 foreign 151:20 177:21 178:7 179:7 field 74:12 97:18 fist 197:21 forensic 72:15 179:14 184:14 191:10 161:16 fit 178:18 forget 55:2 95:15 193:17 197:18 203:18 fields 16:3 five 16:19 23:14 27:18 199:22 205:1,11 206:3 Fifteen 63:14 51:3 65:2 143:11,12 forgot 190:1 factors 129:12 fight 193:21 207:19 143:14 177:2 192:3,4 form 15:19,20 16:2 23:7 failure 180:2 fighter 203:5 206:4 207:2 209:11,14 23:7 40:1 59:10 81:5 fair 21:14 213:13 five-and-a-half 182:2 115:22 121:21 fairly 162:1 178:9 file 8:12 15:20 17:2,8,14 flag 4:5 98:19 112:9 formal 172:6,7 185:12 193:19 17:15 23:22,22 24:2 115:2 format 67:10 73:4 78:11 faith-based 144:4,5,8 29:17 30:3,8 31:5,8 flagged 147:15,18 79:15 fall 138:13 146:4 31:10,22 32:19,19,22 flagging 98:18 former 1:3 5:7 24:10,12 falling 177:15 33:21 40:18 42:13 flags 152:4 25:13,21 35:3,8 73:22 falls 151:14 46:7 62:3,3 67:4 68:4 flakes 184:21 185:3 87:11 128:6,12 familiar 5:13 11:20 68:5 80:6 flash 99:4,5,6,6,7,11 130:20 177:5,6 19:10 40:12 43:3 44:6 filed 17:13 28:4 29:13 100:19 132:16,19 190:16 191:19 210:19 44:21 30:5,6,18 68:3 79:15 133:3,5 forms 15:14 16:11 families 144:19 148:6 files 14:4,4 16:22 17:4,7 flashed 40:2 153:10 family 36:18 41:15 17:20 18:3,7,9,17 flashes 52:16 formula 73:17 44:17 45:6 102:4 19:2 26:17 55:6 94:19 flat 112:16 Fort 7:20,21,21 110:13 111:6 112:17 113:7 filing 8:4 15:18 23:7 flesh 91:18 190:8,9 114:3,14,16 115:4,5 38:20 79:4 flew 179:18 190:1,10 fortunate 189:22 115:12 117:3,4,6 fill 72:17 81:4 116:3 213:13 214:1 Forum 3:17 118:1,3 121:4 137:18 filled 156:14 201:19 flexibility 37:11 Forum-Speaker 3:14 143:4,7 146:20 157:4 final 22:4 27:4 39:10 flight 188:11 207:4 forward 45:2 81:6 170:14,14 50:13,22 114:16 214:2,4 122:13 126:5 169:18 fan 134:13 finalize 43:10 flip-flops 183:19 178:1 211:7 Fantastic 30:22 finalized 39:12 43:16 floor 197:3 Foster 50:6 far 27:10,10 47:14 43:17 Florida 110:14 211:7 found 169:2 193:5,13 52:20 126:15 133:5,6 finally 5:14 39:17 50:5 flowing 133:20 four 7:15 61:12 64:16 161:17 176:3 201:1 50:10 51:9 54:22 flown 181:6 64:17 118:11 120:3 farewells 114:16 107:5 182:14 183:18 fly 179:10 214:5 131:11 179:5,6 180:1 fast 84:9 130:3 184:8,11 185:21 flying 178:8,8 210:9 180:1 181:3 187:14 faster 51:16 60:2 77:14 financial 10:22 213:14 198:12 201:2 206:6 98:4 128:17 find 36:19 38:14 42:13 Flyover 156:6 FPOW 2:4,12 3:5,10,14 father 102:10,11,12 45:22 107:19 108:11 focus 6:17 43:2 3:17 35:22 36:1,3,14 105:2 111:3 113:7,15 focuses 42:7 36:15,17,21 37:14,18 favorable 70:13 134:21 148:1 160:4 FOIA 171:22 37:21 38:5 39:1,5,18 favorite 5:9 finding 9:22 10:5 70:9 folder 41:11 52:13 79:2 39:19 40:1,3,6,16 fax 41:17 116:8,18 77:5 folders 67:4 124:1 41:2,15 42:5,14 44:4 FBI 113:13 fine 23:1 54:15 176:9 folks 84:6 88:12,20 44:10,17 45:3,6,8 fears 38:19 finish 71:20 91:21 99:4 114:7 46:4,8,10,15 47:21 feasible 89:1 finished 13:21 116:12 119:18 132:12 48:16 49:6 50:6 51:20 February 22:4,15 fire 176:12 204:8 52:2,10 53:1,4,7,10 federal 2:2 12:2,4,11 fireworks 53:8 follow 24:3 42:16 70:1 53:17 54:2,5,7,13
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. (202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 234
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. (202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 235
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. (202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com 236
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winds 34:15 128:21 132:7 York 109:17 110:14 177 3:18 wintertime 197:13 world 53:7 77:12,13 149:11 17th 22:15 Wireless 191:3 79:11,12 156:7 young 87:8 176:10 18 22:2 71:16 199:21 wish 53:7 55:6 148:14 174:18 207:20,20 185:13 189:15 203:12 214:2 women 6:6 151:19 212:8,9 YouTube 108:5,7 180 76:5,17 Wondered 178:18 world's 153:18 189 3:20 wondering 135:10 worried 113:9 Z 1900 157:3 175:11 word 19:19 60:11 77:19 worse 77:1 Zondervan 2:3 3:4 4:15 1945 71:3,7 78:1,3,5,9,18 79:1,5,8 worst 14:17 4:21 5:2 19:21 20:3,7 1964 185:18 186:11 193:13,14 worthwhile 87:17 25:2,5 26:9,12,16,22 1965 206:18 words 88:13,19,20 wouldn't 33:10 62:20 27:17,22 28:19 29:8 1967 177:5 200:9 206:11 189:4 29:12,20 30:1,19,22 1971 178:4 wore 184:1 213:3 wound 123:11 31:3,17 32:21 33:7,9 1972 177:7 199:21 work 2:7 5:6 6:1 8:2,18 wounded 151:22 213:6 33:14 34:19 48:18 1973 177:8 8:19 9:14,16,17 10:1 wow 105:3 51:6 1987 64:11 24:19 25:9 31:9,10,16 wrench 31:12 1995 177:5,21 36:22 40:3 41:5 44:1 write 15:15 78:7 87:20 0 44:12,22 45:7 48:19 91:1 97:15 152:8,19 2 51:12,13,16 52:17 152:20 1 2 25:14 53:11 60:11,17,20 written 58:19 1,255 24:12 92:3 2.5 7:3,6 61:5 65:15 66:17,21 wrong 188:18 10 63:13 75:11 102:8 2.6 18:17 72:9 75:7 77:4,7,13 103:20 2:00 136:1,3 77:14 79:21 84:7,11 X 10-minute 155:21 2:41 176:20 87:17 92:17 93:7 94:5 X 60:17 106:12 10.2 129:17 20 42:9 59:16 177:9 99:3 104:1,17 122:20 10:19 63:18 179:7 194:20 205:9 123:16,20 124:7,11 Y 100 55:14,15,18 58:14 20-16-12 140:17 124:15,17 125:8 year 6:14 7:5 8:22 21:7 100-plus 180:15 200 18:19 126:11,16,19 128:3 21:22 23:19 24:12 100,000 17:4 2010 35:17 139:22 129:10,17,20 130:22 28:5,17 66:2 80:5 105 210:6,11 141:2 132:6 145:16 147:10 81:20 91:10,12 92:11 109 136:14 2011 65:4 157:7,9 147:13,19 149:12 97:13 102:6 115:22 10th 178:16 2012 35:18 151:15 152:6 153:11 116:1 151:6 152:21 11 102:4,4 2013 36:2,4 39:21 162:17 175:6 204:10 153:1,15 154:3,4,5 11:43 135:22 2015 65:17 209:20 156:20 159:2,8,16 110 115:15 2016 9:1 51:3 141:22 worked 37:7 42:8 43:1 160:13 163:8 165:9 11th 178:19 2017 1:7 12:17 16:17 44:9 49:3,16 50:20 169:1 175:11 186:16 12 7:10 182:16 201:13 18:2 21:6 24:11,12 52:3,12 53:19 54:18 186:18,20 189:4 209:14 36:12 51:3 92:4 64:16 66:14 81:21 200:5 204:19 205:1 12.7 6:6 156:21 165:9 102:3,8,13 124:3 year's 163:5,6,6 12:00 154:20 2019 22:4,9,15,18 72:5 128:2 178:10 years 5:5 17:9 23:15,20 120 26:8 2020 109:14 workflow 60:21 61:3 27:16,18 28:13 42:9 122 3:10 20th 177:7 178:22 workforce 104:15 59:16 60:18 64:20 125 13:22 26:14 27:4 21 68:21 working 9:1,3 34:2 65:2 73:21 75:13 29:20 92:7,9 214 3:22 46:16,19 47:4 48:16 95:10 102:8 103:20 125-plus 198:7 21st 67:2 48:21 49:1 50:3,16 105:18 106:2,12 136 108:13 22 206:18 51:22 52:9 53:9 69:11 122:21 155:3 156:16 136K 156:21 157:9 229th 178:6 71:2 73:20 76:1 77:2 177:8 186:17 190:2 137 3:12 23rd 21:7 77:20 78:16,16,21 192:1 193:6 194:14 14 71:20 24 71:16 96:12 108:19 87:6 89:18 92:16 93:4 194:20 195:13 205:9 141 131:7 213:7 111:16 95:1 102:7 109:3,16 206:15 207:8 14th 13:17 24-month 96:17 110:10 144:7,15 yeast 197:20 15 42:8 63:13 71:21,22 25 182:3,6 145:17 146:10 160:11 Yellow 151:20 106:20 114:10 117:10 26 108:19 163:16 166:17 167:22 yellowish 185:9 130:7 135:8 176:15 27 192:4 209:13,14 169:9 191:11 yesterday 4:12 5:17 186:12 213:7,7 28 177:8 workload 67:18,19,21 44:4 46:21 105:15 162 25:13 92:4 28th 177:7 179:3 67:22 69:9 84:17 125:2 137:6 147:5 165 3:15 213:11 workloads 84:14 169:17 191:2 17 5:4 29 178:4 works 9:14 86:3 99:6 Yokosuka 150:12,12 1700 1:10
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3 63 3:7 3 65:20 64 3:9 3.1 157:1,11 65 34:16 186:16 3.3 129:16 661 186:11 3.9 131:10 67th 101:5 3:00 114:9 68 6:18 3:11 176:21 690 186:11 3:58 214:21 697,000 6:2 30 1:7 13:21 24:16 25:6 7 59:16 92:22 117:10 192:1 7 24:17 25:7 300 198:6 7/16/78 190:3 300,000 77:6 7:00 214:13 30th 177:5,5 7:15 214:16 313 184:2 708 36:19 34 3:6 70s 162:5 36 197:1 71 179:17 369 69:4 72 178:12 179:7 200:15 36K 157:8,9 73 213:11 38 19:10 65:20 70:22 77,000 92:14 775 115:16 4 78 190:7 4 3:2,4 65:22 71:1 129:5 8 4,500 125:4 4:30 114:8 154:12,21 8.3 68:22 69:5 40 18:17 179:8 184:7 8:00 114:8 193:4 800 6:1,18 45th 159:2 163:8 81 190:7 48 177:8 83 190:10 499 130:11 89 190:11 4th 197:16 199:3,6,9,10 9 5 9 23:7 5 25:13 9:00 1:10 114:8 5'9 195:11 9:03 4:2 5- 155:21 9:58 63:17 5,000 125:2 90 21:21 76:5 116:9 5,500 125:4 120:2 5:00 154:21 90s 74:22 50 19:14 192:1 96 27:6 29:4 84:11 500,000 157:10 92:11 52 6:21 526 40:1 55 14:16 5th 131:7
6 6 8:22 6'2 195:10 6'7 178:17 6:00 154:14 156:15 6:30 214:18,19 60 28:13 36:19 81:2 167:5 60,000 92:15 600,000 77:5 60s 194:13
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C E R T I F I C A T E
This is to certify that the foregoing transcript
In the matter of: Former Prisoners of War Advisory Committee
Before: US DVA
Date: 11-30-17
Place: Atlanta, GA was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.
------Court Reporter
Robert G. Certain Chairman VA Advisory Committee on Former POWs
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DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
+ + + + +
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON FORMER PRISONERS OF WAR
+ + + + +
MEETING
+ + + + +
FRIDAY DECEMBER 1, 2017
+ + + + +
The Committee met in Room L405, Atlanta Marriott Marquis Hotel, 265 Peachtree Center Avenue, Atlanta, Georgia, at 9:00 a.m., Robert Certain, Chairman, presiding.
PRESENT ROBERT CERTAIN, Chairman HARRY CORRE, Member TOM HANTON, Member HAL KUSHNER, Member JOSEPH MILLIGAN, Member JEFF MOORE, Member SHIRLEY QUARLES, Member ELLIOTT SORTILLO, Member
ALSO PRESENT LESLIE WILLIAMS, Designated Federal Officer (DFO) E. MAQUEL MARSHALL, Alternate DFO JELESSA BURNEY, Program Specialist, Advisory Committee Management Office LAURINE CARSON, Acting Director, Policy and Procedures, VA Central Office ANNA CRENSHAW, Assistant Director, National Outreach & Web MARILYN CORRE
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S
Discussion of the New Membership Packages . . . . 3
Discussion of First Draft Final Committee
Report and Recommendations ...... 74
Discussion and Vote: Spring FY2018
Meeting Date and Location...... 111
Adjourn...... 136
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
2 8:59 a.m.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: So before we jump into
4today's meeting -- actually, I'm going to wait
5for Mr. Marshall to come back, but we do have a
6surprise for the Committee. So when he comes in,
7we can jump to it.
8 But as far as the membership packages,
9Jelessa is actually going to give us a layout of
10 what it needs to be composed of. So for those of
11 you who are going to be making nominations, that
12 way, you will know exactly what you need to put
13 in your nomination.
14 So Ms. Burney, you have the floor.
15 MS. BURNEY: Okay. Good morning,
16 everyone.
17 PARTICIPANTS: Good morning.
18 MS. BURNEY: And so generally, when we
19 get inquiries from potential candidates, we ask
20 them to send us either their resume and/or
21 curriculum vitae. And we also ask them to do a
22 nomination letter from whomever the person is
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1that's recommending them for the Committee.
2 And at the back of the revised
3membership handbook that Leslie provided in your
4binders, there is a list of the VA 29 advisory
5committees with a small objective or a blurb as
6to what their purpose is. And so generally, we
7also provide that to anyone that is seeking
8membership so that they can let us know which
9three they're actually interested in. So if you
10 want, I can send that to Leslie, just the list
11 itself. And you can email it around for not just
12 this Committee, for people that you maybe
13 recommended but if they're interested in others
14 as well.
15 But once we get the package, we're
16 going to include the resume, your nomination or
17 recommendation letter from that person along with
18 the appointment letters and those things. That
19 goes up to the Secretary.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: And so right now, we
21 will be soliciting for six new members because
22 two of them initially were scheduled to roll off
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1in October of 2017. However, they have been
2extended until we can backfill behind them.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It was three,
4wasn't it?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: No, so William
6Richardson, he wasn't scheduled to roll off. He
7was just recommended because of inactivity
8because he hasn't attended any of the meetings
9since he was appointed to the Committee.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: But we had three in
11 a normal rotation to go off.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: No, so for this one, in
13 October, it was Dr. Kushner and Shoshana Johnson.
14 And then for fiscal year '18, it is yourself, Dr.
15 Quarles, and I want to say William Richardson.
16 But like I said, he wasn't scheduled to roll off.
17 He's just being recommended because of
18 inactivity.
19 MEMBER QUARLES: What about Tom
20 Hanton?
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Tom Hanton.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: You're leaving too?
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Where is -- here it
2is. Here it is. This is the document I sent
3around -- all right -- of last year. October '17
4was Kushner, Johnson, and Hanton. Richardson
5wasn't due till '18, but he needs to be replaced
6sooner. And then in '18 -- you're three years,
7so you're not till '19.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: No, she's not three
9years. Dr. Quarles is not three years.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Everybody was
11 appointed for three years to start with.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: But --
13 MS. BURNEY: She's not because she
14 served on another committee. And so there's a
15 total time frame for that for members, even if
16 they serve on another committee.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. Well,
18 I'd sent this around to Boomer a year ago, and he
19 approved it, and it shows in '19. So somebody
20 needs to get their act together and pay attention
21 to what they're approving because this just
22 creates a habit when I have to go through and
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1redo this again and again and again. So I'll
2redo it again, but that's the last time.
3 Right now, then in '19, it's Sortillo,
4Carson, and Moore, and Milligan. So we have all
5these -- because it was such a disaster when term
6limits were imposed on this Committee in a very
7heavy-handed manner where people were just told
8to get out, there was nobody in line to fill the
9gaps. We had no committee for 18 months. It
10 took that long to get this process done. I
11 thought we had people in the pipeline already,
12 and we'd solicited for nominations from the
13 Congress and advertised these positions.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: So I want to -- let me
15 just say this. So when Mr. Robinson did do the
16 solicitations, from the solicitations that he
17 did, selections were made. However, now, because
18 we have to backfill again, we have to go through
19 the solicitation process all over again.
20 Because, one, we have to ensure that the people
21 who are recommended, that they're still
22 interested. But also, two, afford any other new
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1person an opportunity for membership.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. Well, let's
3get that done, and let's try to do this offline
4without a meeting. Can we get this stuff
5circulated immediately so we can get this maybe
6accomplished this year instead of 2020 or 2022?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so the Federal
8Register is complete. It just has to be posted.
9And as far as anyone on the Committee who's
10 wishing to recommend anyone, as soon as I get
11 that information, then we can start working on
12 those packages.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. And so in
14 order to get this Committee so that it has a
15 regular, predictable rotation, that that's why we
16 spent months getting this put together and agreed
17 to. And that means that after, when we get
18 Kushner's replacement, that person should go for
19 until 2021 just to get it into a cycle. But I'll
20 send this around again since it's been apparently
21 not paid attention to or lost or whatever.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: So let me just say
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1this. So because the term limits are three
2years, there will be no way to have that person
3to go to 2021 without them having served their
4three years and then requesting an extension.
5 So the other option that we have is --
6so in 2016, a charter was updated, so that would
7have been the time to request for new term
8limits. However, it was not done. So upon a
9charter renewal, then we can request to have the
10 term limits negotiated or changed. But as of
11 now, we have to abide by the three years that's
12 in place.
13 MS. CRENSHAW: Is there a way to --
14 and I'm just asking because I'm always trying to
15 get to a yes-person. Even though it's a charter,
16 charters can be updated. Is there a time limit
17 that you can update charters, or is there an
18 imposition on updating the charter prior to the
19 time limit?
20 So let's just say right now we see
21 that we have kind of a crisis, we have an issue,
22 and we're going to have a bigger crisis if it
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1doesn't get resolved, if the membership --
2without enough members, we won't have a
3Committee. So the goal is to ensure that we have
4a Committee and we have a synchronized rotation.
5 Is there a way to update the charter
6outside of the deadlines of when the charter was
7-- say, we're going to update the charter every
8three years. Can we update it within those
9three-year periods? Because this is an issue
10 that needs to be resolved, and maybe the charter
11 needs to be changed to extend the time lines. Is
12 that possible?
13 MS. BURNEY: So the charter is a
14 governing document that is stemmed from the
15 statutory law. And so it's done every two years.
16 And when it comes to membership, it's based on
17 what the actual statutory says.
18 MS. CRENSHAW: Says.
19 MS. BURNEY: So that information
20 drives from there. So it's not like we can go in
21 and make a change to that.
22 MS. CRENSHAW: To the charter? Okay.
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1 MS. BURNEY: Because that comes from
2the law.
3 MEMBER KUSHNER: You can't change
4that. Is there a minimum number of the Committee
5required? Is the number of the Committee
6absolute and set in stone, or is it --
7 MS. BURNEY: It's set, right?
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- a range?
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so ten is the
10 minimum for this Committee. But in order to host
11 a meeting, you have to have half plus one
12 present. So because we have -- right now,
13 because we have 12 members on the row, in order
14 for us to meet, then we would have to have seven
15 members present and the DFO which is why the
16 Committee was unable to meet those 18 months
17 because there were not enough members to hold a
18 quorum.
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: Right, right. I
20 understand.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
22 MEMBER QUARLES: So Leslie, for those
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1members that are rolling off, if, in fact, the
2Chair doesn't have enough for those members who
3can be retained for another additional two years
4or what have you, can they do that?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so I will have to
6do an extension. So, like, for Dr. Kushner and
7Shoshana Johnson, I have to reach out to ACMO to
8request an extension to have them to remain on
9the Committee. But it also worked out in our
10 favor because we had to reschedule this meeting.
11 And so because of us having to reschedule this
12 meeting, it kind of pushed the clock back for us
13 on certain things. Now, beyond that, truthfully,
14 I don't know.
15 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay. Jelessa, can you
16 help?
17 MS. BURNEY: Well, for the other two
18 members, yes, they can probably put something in
19 writing to justify and not just to say, hey, we
20 want to have them on for this purpose. But it
21 would have to be a solid justification for it.
22 With regards to Dr. Quarles, the VA policy says -
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1-
2 MS. CRENSHAW: Right.
3 MS. BURNEY: -- members can't serve no
4more than eight years.
5 MS. CRENSHAW: Have any of this
6Committee served eight years? No one on this
7Committee now has served eight years --
8 MS. WILLIAMS: No.
9 MS. CRENSHAW: -- with the exception
10 of Dr. Quarles?
11 MS. WILLIAMS: And see, and that's
12 initially what caused the crisis. Because when
13 Secretary McDonald came down and said, we will
14 abide by the law, practically almost every member
15 on the Committee had been on ten-plus years which
16 caused a mass exit. And it just caused us to
17 always be having gaps to fill for the membership.
18 MS. CRENSHAW: And this is just for me
19 to clear. So for this Committee to continue,
20 which is important for us, we don't have anyone
21 that has maxed out at eight years. So we could
22 put a plan in place, like Dr. Certain was saying,
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1so that there will be a rotation process where
2there's never a gap.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, and I would --
4 MS. CRENSHAW: I think that's the
5goal.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- suggest we not
7try to -- that everybody that's on the Committee
8right now, that we establish our first rotation
9schedule in '17 and not in '16. We only have --
10 if we're going to what I had -- that Boomer and I
11 agreed to and that is to set all rotations on 1
12 October and not scatter it all over the year like
13 it was before, which he had agreed to, then --
14 and if nobody is maxed out, then we'd just extend
15 those who served six years until October of 2017
16 and then institute a rotation that makes sense at
17 that point.
18 MEMBER HANTON: Do you mean '18, next
19 year?
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: '18 instead of '17,
21 the ones who are scheduled to rotate off in '17.
22 Right now, we only have one meeting scheduled in
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1between now and next October anyway. And
2everybody has been extended through that meeting,
3and then begin the rotations in '18.
4 And since the default is a two-year,
5and we can have people appointed for two years
6and others appointed for three years which is our
7standard for this Committee. And then that
8should work in a way that we can then have four
9per year coming up on either reappointment or
10 replacement and get it smoothed out that way.
11 It'll give us a little more leeway on
12 getting nominations in and hearing from those who
13 are being nominated or who are either
14 volunteering because they know about the
15 Committee and want to serve or have been
16 nominated through the Congress or whatever other
17 sources as well as nominating from this Committee
18 or in other constituent organizations.
19 But I would like to see -- to make
20 this work so it's not quite the headache that it
21 has been for the last four years to have at least
22 three people in the pipeline at all times so that
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1they get approved for an October nomination no
2later than the 1st of June. So they know they're
3coming on. Everybody knows who their replacement
4is.
5 We can line them up, get the
6preliminary information too so they don't come in
7as neophytes. One of the deals is, since we only
8meet twice a year, it takes three meetings before
9people feel comfortable with what we're doing.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: So let me just ask
11 this. I think to achieve the goal that you want,
12 what we will ultimately need to do is change the
13 time line in which we solicit for membership.
14 Because as I said, there's no way to just keep a
15 stack of pre-approved nominations. But if we
16 were to curtail --
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: No, I didn't say,
18 "pre-approved". Pre-approved --
19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- or have them in the
20 pipeline.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Have the nomination
22 packages in hand.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Understandably. So
2every time we have to place a new person on
3Committee, we have to go through the solicitation
4process. So if we were to change the time line
5in which we solicit for membership, then that way
6we could always have someone ready to roll on.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: If we solicit in
8January with a 1 April deadline for submission,
9surely we could get them approved for an October
10 appointment by June.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm going to defer that
12 one to you because the nomination packages, I
13 mean, they do have to concur through VA. And
14 that's a process in itself. So if you want to --
15 MS. BURNEY: So generally, when you do
16 --
17 MS. WILLIAMS: -- speak a little bit
18 about that one.
19 MS. BURNEY: -- a solicitation through
20 a Federal Register, the Committee, if they're
21 planning to appoint new members by a certain
22 meeting time frame -- so let's say if your
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1meeting is going to be May or June, then you
2could start soliciting in January and you could
3have that solicitation open from two weeks up to
430 days or 45 days.
5 And then once that time frame closes,
6then the Program Office, they do whatever their
7candidate selection process is to determine who
8is qualified to be on the Committee. They put
9the nomination package together and they send it
10 up to the Secretary's office. And that should
11 all take place before a May or a June meeting.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: And so just keep in
13 mind when we did the last solicitation, a part of
14 the timing is really a pain because those
15 packages, they couldn't concur. There were
16 several issues with the packages, and so some of
17 them were rejected and he had to go back and
18 solicit for new memberships. So there's a lot of
19 values that goes into the solicitation process
20 that are somewhat out of our control.
21 MEMBER HANTON: So there's no set
22 solicitation process? That's when you decide it
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1is?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Not necessarily.
3 MEMBER HANTON: Do you remember?
4There's no set date where you can only solicit
5between a certain time frame, or is it anytime?
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Anytime. It's anytime.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: How many offices
8have to concur? How many human beings in this
9draconian organization have to concur?
10 MS. BURNEY: So for a membership
11 process, it's only VBA's Program Office, ACMO,
12 and the Secretary's office.
13 MEMBER KUSHNER: Three offices?
14 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
15 MEMBER HANTON: So it goes from VBA --
16 MS. BURNEY: Now.
17 MEMBER HANTON: -- to ACMO to the
18 Secretary?
19 MS. BURNEY: Yes. Before, we had OGC
20 involved. And so OGC is not in the concurrence
21 process anymore.
22 MEMBER QUARLES: And the packages can
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1be delayed at any one of those offices?
2 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
3 MEMBER QUARLES: They shouldn't be,
4though. Yes, they shouldn't be, but --
5 MS. WILLIAMS: So, like, an example,
6last year, I know when Eric was doing the
7solicitations. The packages were delayed because
8the comment that came back, there was not enough
9diversity. So I mean, there are several
10 different issues that goes into the decision-
11 making process because --
12 MS. CRENSHAW: How much diversity --
13 MS. WILLIAMS: -- once we --
14 MS. CRENSHAW: -- are you going to get
15 on an FPOW Committee? You can only get --
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's our
17 argument. That's what we argued last time.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: So when she said, no --
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It did not help.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: -- diversity, so --
21 MEMBER KUSHNER: We only have one
22 left-hander.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: -- part of the charter
2--
3 MEMBER KUSHNER: We only have one
4left-handed person.
5 (Laughter.)
6 MS. WILLIAMS: No.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: Well, like, in terms of
8diversity, when we submit this up and that comes
9back, it's a little different than if we were
10 doing this for the Women Committee or the
11 minority committee. If the committees are
12 established by a special emphasis as a targeted
13 population. So this is a special, targeted
14 population. It's the FPOW. So the biggest
15 criteria would be they would have to be former
16 prisoners of --
17 MS. WILLIAMS: No, that's --
18 MS. CRENSHAW: -- war, right?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- incorrect.
20 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, okay.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: And there's a lot of
22 packages. And that's what she meant by
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1diversity. She wanted to have non-FPOWs on the
2Committee as well.
3 MEMBER KUSHNER: She wanted to have
4what?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: So that was --
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Non.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: -- one of the -- non-
8FPOWs.
9 MEMBER KUSHNER: Oh, yes, non.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: So she wanted to --
11 MEMBER KUSHNER: I thought she said,
12 nun.
13 MS. CRENSHAW: When you say, "she",
14 who is "she"?
15 MS. WILLIAMS: So Lois at the time.
16 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, okay.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: She was the one who
18 sent them back. But essentially, she just wanted
19 to have --
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And we have --
21 MS. WILLIAMS: -- the Committee to
22 diversify more and open up beyond FPOWs.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And we have about
2four right now. We have the non-POWs on the
3Committee are Lane Carson, Jeff Moore, Shirley
4Quarles, and Bob Hain. Now, Shirley and Lane are
5two people who had no prior direct relationship
6with POWs.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: I think we can do it.
8I think we can solicit -- and this is just me
9being from an outreach standpoint. It'll be
10 published in the Federal Register. And then part
11 of our job as the Program Office oversight would
12 be is to also go out and get the word out to
13 reach out to people and publish it on our website
14 that these applications, at this time, this is
15 going on.
16 I know we have to publish, and
17 Jelessa, correct me if I'm wrong because I'm
18 asking. So we're going to publish in the
19 Register. But there's nothing to prevent us from
20 doing a solicitation campaign in which we solicit
21 where we're at.
22 We're all over the place in outreach
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1in VBA. We are everywhere. We have our website
2which we can post on. We have VA.gov that we can
3post on. And so I would suggest that we do what
4we do with everything is maybe do a solicitation
5campaign and see how that works. And I mean, it
6can't hurt.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: No, and the other
8kinds of categories of people that I think would
9-- the Committee would have gained benefit from
10 are people like the spouses, the children, the
11 caregivers, VSOs who specialize in working POW
12 claims. Those kinds of folks that -- if we can
13 get a source for them and find out how to
14 approach them, then we can continue with the
15 care.
16 A lot of our World War II veterans are
17 not able to travel, and we've lost most of those
18 from this Committee historically because they
19 could no longer bear the travel. But some of
20 their children and grandchildren have a direct
21 concern about it, and there's no reason why they
22 couldn't be asked to volunteer for this
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1Committee. Some of them have spouses who are
2much younger than they are and are able to
3participate or widows. So there's a group of
4people who know POWs and have worked with POWs
5who would be a benefit on this Committee.
6 And then the states have their own --
7like, Georgia has a veteran service on their
8state staff, and there are lot of former POWs in
9this state. So some of the state folks who have
10 worked with the state POWs have some knowledge
11 about it and could be a benefit to this
12 Committee.
13 So there are lot of categories of
14 people out there, but we have to find better ways
15 of soliciting those names and publishing in the
16 Federal Register because nobody reads that and
17 better than just on the website. It has to be --
18 we have to ask organizations to think through the
19 people that they have in their organization or
20 they're connected with that would be willing to
21 serve.
22 MEMBER KUSHNER: And we have to ask
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1individually. I mean, we each have to ask and
2reach out to people that we know who may have
3knowledge, training, or interest in --
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
5 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- this particular
6subject.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And the most --
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: Right.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- effective way is
10 to look them in the eye. Emails are not all that
11 effective. Websites are not all that effective,
12 especially for this group of people because it
13 won't catch their attention. You have to kind of
14 slap them upside the head with a two-by-four to
15 get their attention to say, oh, this is something
16 I can do to serve.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: I can definitely tell
18 you there is some cross-collaboration that
19 happens internally that also leads to getting new
20 memberships. And Dr. Quarles is a testimony to
21 that because of how well she maintained the
22 Women's Committee. She was recommended
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1specifically for this Committee to bring that
2type of order.
3 So I mean, as the DFOs, we do cross-
4collaborate amongst ourselves and speak on our
5members to see who we have on our committee that
6may fit well on another committee. So that's
7something that we do as well as ACMO solicits on
8our behalf as well.
9 MS. BURNEY: We solicit to some of the
10 diversity organizations and a lot of the
11 voluntary organizations as well too.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: So I guess the question
13 I pose to the group is when I post in the Federal
14 Register, we can leave it open for two weeks, up
15 to 45 days. What time constraint does the group
16 feel comfortable with? I, personally, think the
17 45 days would be the best because it'll allow us
18 to get the --
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: Right. No argument
20 against 45 days.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: -- optimum time to get
22 the most candidates in.
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1 MEMBER QUARLES: Yes, I agree with
2that too. Leslie and Jelessa, is it possible
3that the Chair can solicit potential members and
4just keep them in the pipeline for a future date
5and just reach out to those individuals as they
6are needed closer to what the date that they are
7needed? Can he do that?
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
9 MS. BURNEY: So if you do have, like,
10 a repository of resumes or CVs, just double check
11 to see if that person is still available and
12 wants to participate.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: And you can do that.
14 So based off of the solicitation that Eric
15 Robinson completed, so I reached out to some of
16 the candidates. And some were still interested
17 and some of them are not. It's not that they're
18 not interested, but they're just unable to
19 travel. So some of them, due to medical illness,
20 unfortunately are unable to apply for membership.
21 MEMBER CORRE: Question: How about
22 husbands and wives? The reason I say that is I
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1would nominate my wife if it was acceptable
2because she has a fantastic background in with
3POWs. She's also a service officer, so she's got
4additional, and also works in the patient
5advocate office. So she has a very rounded
6background. But I don't know if you take
7husbands and wives.
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: There's no objection
9to that, is it?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no. So you would
11 be able to nominate Mrs. Corre.
12 MEMBER CORRE: Okay.
13 MEMBER KUSHNER: Yes, and they can
14 serve simultaneously, right?
15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
16 MEMBER KUSHNER: They'd count for two?
17 MEMBER CORRE: Yes, that's my point.
18 MEMBER KUSHNER: Why use two when one
19 will do, right?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: You guys remember the
21 Bussels?
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: They both served --
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, no.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: -- on the Committee.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: He did, but she was
5always contributing.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: I know.
7 MEMBER KUSHNER: Who are you talking
8about?
9 MS. WILLIAMS: That's why I just made
10 that comment.
11 MEMBER KUSHNER: Who are you talking
12 about?
13 MS. WILLIAMS: The Bussels.
14 MEMBER CORRE: Norm Bussel.
15 MEMBER KUSHNER: Oh, yes, he was the
16 official member.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: I know, but Melanie was
18 the --
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: She was the canary --
20 MEMBER CORRE: Melanie was --
21 MEMBER KUSHNER: She was the canary in
22 the gold mine.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.
2 (Laughter.)
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: A lot of spouses
4always have commented and have sat in on the
5meetings and participated in the public session
6of the meetings. So they've been -- so that's
7sort of increased the knowledge base and the
8discussion base of what we've been doing. And
9there's no reason why the spouses can't come. Of
10 course, we don't pay their way unless they're an
11 aid and attendance, unless they're --
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Or the caregiver.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- the caregiver.
14 If they're a caregiver, they'd be able to pay
15 their transportation.
16 MEMBER CORRE: Yes, okay. But you're
17 looking for members on the Committee?
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, remember,
19 there's only 12 of us. And so --
20 MEMBER KUSHNER: And we have to have
21 ten.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- we have to have
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1a minimum of ten, and 12 is a better number. And
2so what we don't want to do is close people out
3that want to be on because we have couples
4serving. And if we're --
5 MEMBER CORRE: I understand that. But
6right now, you're having trouble getting
7nominations.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, right now, we
9had a number of people from the Nam-POW reunion
10 said they were interested and they were going to
11 send in their resumes and their cover letter to
12 Leslie. And that would fill out this year for
13 sure. And that's just from that source, and that
14 didn't include the Federal Register or other
15 nominating sources.
16 So I think it's not a matter of
17 getting it done. It's a matter of a couple of
18 things: First of all, making sure that we know
19 who's responsible for solicitation, who's
20 responsible for collecting the nominations and
21 how they're supposed to be done so that we can,
22 as a Committee, maybe look at them and prioritize
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1them for going forward.
2 We cannot make the appointments.
3That's the Secretary's business. And the VBA
4Director, Mr. Murphy, I guess, or somebody in his
5office, has to concur for starters. And then
6ACMO office has to make sure that there are no
7people on there, for instance, who served in
8other committees for past the statutory limit.
9 So this is a relatively new issue for
10 this Committee, and I'm not sure when the
11 statutory limitations were written into the law.
12 But the DoD picked up on them in 2007 and the VA
13 two years ago. So it's not like it's always been
14 this way. And it's, like, if a policy folder is
15 this thick, most of the policies are not being
16 followed because people don't know what they are
17 until somebody finds one and then says, oh, we've
18 got to do this.
19 One of the things that we probably
20 need to be doing in our weekly conversations is
21 to find out who is making a -- what nominations
22 or volunteer statements have been received so
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1that we can, together, look at them and see if
2they're perfected in accordance with the rules of
3what has to be submitted.
4 And then if we can hold them
5electronically in the Chairman's files as well as
6in the DFO's files so that when we need somebody,
7either to replace somebody who's died or resigned
8or to rotate in, then we can go circle back and
9contact those folks to see if they're still
10 willing and then put them forward.
11 That's what I mean by keeping some in
12 the pipeline. I don't care -- if it's informally
13 kept, that's fine with me. So we don't want to
14 get them in there into the formal system if
15 there's not a need because then they'll get lost.
16 Because when things that are not needed right now
17 are going to go to the bottom of somebody's pile
18 and they'll never be found again, and that's true
19 in everything I do for me. And so I'm sure it's
20 true for the organization.
21 So again, I think that the thing to do
22 right now is to get the nominations and volunteer
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1statements, whatever we're required, together,
2get them perfected by our meeting at the Central
3Office this spring. It would be nice if we could
4do this in a conference call or a video
5conference with the Committee rather than a
6meeting.
7 Because that doesn't cost anything,
8right? But it can still be legal. So that the
9Committee can prioritize prior to that and be
10 able to get them into the concurrence process
11 before the spring meeting so that we don't have
12 gaps when it comes to October the 1st and be able
13 to then institute.
14 And I think we need to look carefully
15 together at the issues, as I see it, of getting
16 the same number of people coming up for
17 reappointment or replacement every year and not
18 five one year and two one year and none one year
19 to make it reasonable and sensible. And if that
20 means that we recommend that some people be
21 appointed for two years with the ability to serve
22 an additional three-year term, then we can do
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1that and have a mixture for a little while.
2 I'd also like to see us have an
3agreement that in the case of somebody dying or
4resigning, that we have one person that we can
5push through quickly to replace them. And then
6if they are serving less than a half a term, that
7they're eligible for reappointment for up to two
8additional terms which would max out at eight.
9If it's more than a half of term or, say, 18
10 months, then they would only be eligible to be
11 reappointed for one additional term.
12 So our standard is a six-year period
13 of time that would be normative. And that way, I
14 think we can get a good, functioning Committee
15 with predictable rotations and predictable
16 replacements. But we all have to get on that
17 same sheet of music and look at the same
18 gridline, and it has to be approved in writing by
19 somebody with the authority to do that. If
20 that's Jeff Moragne, then fine. If it's the
21 Secretary, then fine. But let's get her done.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Now, we could always
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1invite Mr. Moragne to the conference call. And
2then that way, he directly can answer any
3questions and also be able to say if they can be
4approved.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right. And if we
6get nominations of some, we have no way of
7knowing unless that's part of one of the
8questions they have to answer, have you served on
9another VA federal advisory committee? And if
10 so, for how long?
11 That should be part of the package.
12 That way, we will know. I'd hate to be surprised
13 and say, we talked somebody into serving. We put
14 their name forward only to discover that they had
15 served on a suicide prevention committee for six
16 years.
17 MS. BURNEY: We have a way to check.
18 So when they have those names ready, we can run a
19 check through GSA's --
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, but --
21 MS. BURNEY: -- database.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- can we put that
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1as a required question to be answered on a
2nomination packet?
3 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That way, before we
5nominate somebody, we'll have an indication this
6person is not going to be appointed because they
7don't qualify.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: So then with that being
9said, does everyone concur with the 45 days? So
10 once I post in the Federal Register to have it
11 posted for 45 days, then once that's complete,
12 then we will be able to work on packages.
13 Because I won't be able to submit any packages
14 while the Federal Register is open.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right, but we can
16 work on packages --
17 MS. WILLIAMS: I understand.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- for other
19 nominations.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: But if you want to have
21 the conference call to go over all the packages,
22 you don't want to wait till everything gets
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1received and do it in one swoop, or --
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, no, no.
3That's not what I'm saying. We can go back and
4make our nomination. We can solicit members of
5our organization that we know that would serve
6well in this Committee and we can develop
7nomination packages. And then when the 45 days
8is over, we can add those at that point.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So we'll have a
11 collection of people that are willing to serve
12 and are qualified to serve --
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- that are not
15 responding to the Federal Register.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. But I'm
17 saying, at that time, is that when you would like
18 to host either a virtual meeting or --
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: -- to review all of the
21 packages?
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right, all at once.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And they would need
3to be -- how do we do the packages in some kind
4of way that everybody can look at them like a
5Dropbox? If there's a federal secure Dropbox
6that people can log on and start reviewing them
7as soon as they're collected up so that when we
8do have a virtual meeting --
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- everybody can be
11 familiar. Because printing them out or emailing
12 them around, that's probably somehow not a good
13 idea.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Because we don't
16 know how -- forwarding them around beyond this
17 Committee is not something I would want to see
18 done because people can get their noses out of
19 joint.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And that's
21 something I can look into see what are options
22 available to us as far as making sure they're
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1secure but everyone can view them.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, it seems to
3me, at one time, there was some sort of a way
4that you could send stuff out that if anybody
5tried to forward it, it wouldn't. It
6disappeared. But I'm just thinking about the
7personal information security issue because all
8of these packets will have that sort of stuff in
9it. And I don't think -- again, I think this
10 Committee can prioritize and as we see it,
11 recognizing that the Deputy Secretary and the
12 ACMO office and the Secretary all have the
13 ability to do it some other way.
14 MEMBER HANTON: How do other
15 committees do this?
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, how is this
17 rotation being handled by other committees?
18 MS. CARSON: So I can tell you about
19 the ACDC committee that my employees actually
20 work with. So they actually have an Excel
21 spreadsheet that has everybody's dates that they
22 started on the committee and whether they served
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1on another committee. So they have, like, the --
2so what we have is an Excel spreadsheet that
3says, this is your date, and then it also has a
4form and it says the date by so that you can see
5when a person should be coming off.
6 We solicit for packages through -- we
7do the Federal -- we announce that we're looking
8for new committee members. We use the Federal
9Register to do that, and we get a whole bunch of
10 resumes and other things. She makes an entire
11 book full of those things for the committee and
12 also for review by leadership. And we go through
13 the process of looking at that.
14 But the rotation schedule is a
15 schedule of this many, cut them off. We have a
16 maximum number of people that can be on a
17 committee. However, only this many people may be
18 on a committee. So you do have some flexibility
19 at that time when you're doing the rotations to
20 determine if you're going to make another
21 addition if you have a committee such as yours.
22 Now, our committee, people are pretty
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1present. If a person has not joined, that I
2think that the committee has agreed that if a
3person has not been visible and active, then --
4and then for inactivity, they can determine if
5maybe that person is not a person that stays on a
6committee, unless there's a compelling reason.
7There's, sometimes, compelling reasons.
8 But they've written all that out.
9They have that agreement, and the DFO ensures
10 that she's keeping the chairman informed of the
11 rotation --
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So the --
13 MS. CARSON: -- at all times.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- committee
15 developed its own policy; is that what you're
16 saying?
17 MS. CARSON: The committee works with
18 ACMO, with the DFO, and they work very, very
19 strongly together. But they have a system is
20 what --
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, they developed
22 --
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1 MS. CARSON: -- I'm saying.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- that system,
3though?
4 MS. CARSON: Huh?
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The Committee
6developed that system of rotation?
7 MS. CARSON: Yes, yes, the chairman
8works --
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
10 MS. CARSON: -- the chairman, they sat
11 down. They agreed on it. They mapped it out,
12 how it's going to work and how they were going to
13 keep it so that they had, like, three or four
14 people who were rotating off at a time. So they
15 never had an issue where they had six or seven.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, I have that
17 spreadsheet we built over a year ago. But the
18 inactivity policy, which is an internal decision,
19 if I could get a copy of that procedure guide --
20 MS. CARSON: Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- that they
22 developed so --
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1 MS. BURNEY: And it's not a --
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And Leslie?
3 MS. BURNEY: Yes, it's really not a
4policy. So if a member is unable to attend in
5person or via phone for one or two meetings, then
6that's a conversation that the DFO and the Chair
7needs to have --
8 MS. CARSON: Yes, the Chair and the
9DFO does it.
10 MS. BURNEY: -- and loop in the
11 Program Office that this person is not serving at
12 the discretion of what they --
13 MS. CARSON: Absolutely.
14 MS. BURNEY: -- agreed to with the
15 Secretary. And they can ask them to step down.
16 MS. CARSON: So that's you and the DFO
17 --
18 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
19 MS. CARSON: -- Leslie, getting
20 together, discussing those kinds of things,
21 bringing them to the ACMO office and making that
22 determination about whether we need to solicit
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1for more members.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
3 MS. CARSON: And they have that
4conversation with the person.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, that's what
6we've been trying to set up on this Committee
7since I was asked to be the chairman, and I'm --
8 MS. WILLIAMS: So let me --
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- getting a little
10 frustrated.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: -- just say this. From
12 my standpoint of view for this Committee, the
13 issue is not the fact that we don't have a
14 schedule determined. The issue came in, for 20-
15 plus years, no solicitation was done for this
16 Committee. So when the rules were implemented
17 and the Secretary said, you will follow these
18 rules, because we had so many members who had to
19 leave and we had to backfill.
20 So if you think of it, we've only done
21 one solicitation in the last 20 years. This is
22 the second time we have schedule. Now, we just
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1have to get the momentum going and keeping that
2schedule.
3 MEMBER QUARLES: So you don't have a
4repository is what you're saying too really?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes and no. Because I
6still have the packages that were done for the
7last solicitation. And even when I reached out
8to those individuals, some of them were still
9interested and some of them, they cannot serve
10 due to medical illness.
11 So while we have some names, it still
12 wasn't enough for me to submit everything for it
13 because we need to make sure that we do have
14 diversity when we submit them for it but also we
15 have enough. So once leadership signs out, we
16 can do it one time --
17 MS. CRENSHAW: So with the --
18 MS. WILLIAMS: -- versus stagnating
19 it.
20 MS. CRENSHAW: -- names you got from
21 Nam-POW, do you think it's feasible now to do
22 another solicitation in January based upon what
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1you already have, the people that are interested
2and the individuals you've got at Nam-POW? Would
3that be a viable option?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, and we can --
6once they send their information to you, as I
7requested them to do, if they need to get
8whatever form or format that that has to be in
9back to them with a deadline that's the same as
10 the Federal Register deadline. And so that we
11 can get those perfected in accordance with the
12 rules by the time the Federal Register deadline
13 has appeared, and then we can move forward from
14 that.
15 And in the meantime, you and I will
16 work with this spreadsheet to see how we're going
17 to move forward from here so that we can
18 accomplish the goal of having a predictable,
19 regular rotation schedule and know who is
20 rotating off each year, make sure that the
21 numbers are correct, who's eligible for
22 reappointment, who is not eligible for
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1reappointment so we can target how many we're
2going to need in any particular year based upon
3who has to rotate off and who can be reappointed.
4 And then those who are on their first
5term would have to -- since those are
6reappointments, do they have to put in a packet
7too?
8 MS. WILLIAMS: For reappointment.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. So anybody,
10 but we do need to know if they're willing to
11 continue to serve?
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so we'll just
14 have to ask you that and then check it off to
15 say, I'm done with this, or, I've got other
16 things have occurred in my life. I can't get
17 here anymore. And that way, we can -- the most
18 that I think we should ever have is four in any
19 one year. But if we can get a good rotation
20 schedule, there would be probably two, two being
21 reappointed and two being new --
22 MEMBER KUSHNER: We need three now,
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1though, right?
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- in any given
3year. What?
4 MEMBER KUSHNER: We need three now,
5right: Hanton, myself, and Shoshana Johnson?
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, also
7Richardson.
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: Shoshana has not been
9very good about attending the meetings really.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: No.
11 MEMBER KUSHNER: She's missed a lot of
12 meetings. So is there a criteria for attendance?
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I think -- well, if
14 I understand it, we can set that criteria. And I
15 think that with only two meetings a year that if
16 you miss one in a year, either in person or on
17 the phone, then your participation is
18 questionable. We've only got the total of six
19 meetings.
20 MEMBER KUSHNER: Right.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: But we also have to
22 look at the reason as to why the person did not
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1attend. So for this particular meeting, Shoshana
2did not attend because of medical reasons. And
3then keep in mind there was another meeting that
4she did not attend in which she was going to have
5to pay for her expenses out of her own pocket.
6I'm not sure of the circumstances because I was
7not the DFO at that time. But I do know it was a
8financial reason that she was unable to attend.
9 So I understand activity, being
10 involved in the Committee is very important which
11 is one reason why I, personally, am recommending
12 that Mr. Richardson be removed because he has not
13 attended.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And he doesn't
15 respond.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: But we also have to be
17 mindful of why that person is not attending. And
18 I definitely know, for her case as well as Mr.
19 Richardson, when he was communicating with me,
20 his boss was sick. And that was one of the
21 reasons why it's taken me this long --
22 MEMBER KUSHNER: Well, I mean that's
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1another point --
2 MS. WILLIAMS: -- for me to submit his
3name.
4 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- the reason. But
5if the reason is such that the person can't
6attend the meetings --
7 MS. CRENSHAW: Then they just need to
8be removed.
9 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- then he needs to
10 be removed for medical reasons.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, and if we can
12 have a telephone set up so they can participate
13 by phone, that's another way.
14 MS. CARSON: I will tell you that the
15 other thing that ACDC does is they do have a
16 conference line for a particular member who is a
17 little confined and that person participates by
18 phone. And actually, he gives input and
19 everything, but he does not attend for medical
20 reasons. But he is very, very active on the
21 committee.
22 MS. CRENSHAW: And I will tell you
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1that since Leslie has taken over, she has always
2ensured that if a committee member needs to be
3dialed in, she will establish and set that up.
4So the option is there for the committee member.
5But what she's saying is the committee member has
6to want to participate on the phone.
7 MS. CARSON: Right.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Because, I mean, even
9Mr. Milligan, he's attended a meeting virtually.
10 So the option is definitely there, and the
11 individuals who want to take advantage of it,
12 they do. And those who don't, they don't.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, and if they
14 don't, then they're not interested and we need to
15 find somebody else. Okay. Have we beaten this
16 dead horse enough?
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So you and I need
19 to be in clear communication for the next little
20 while to get this nailed down.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. Yes?
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1 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Is there a written
2definition of what constitutes diversity on this
3Committee?
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, that's
5crossed my mind too, and it's former POWs and
6non-former POWs. And if we can include in the
7non-POW -- since we only have, what, three female
8former POWs available to us, and one of them is
9not available because Rhonda Cornum served for,
10 like, 20 years. So --
11 MEMBER MILLIGAN: And this leaves two.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So it leaves two,
13 and Shoshana is rotating off. And so that leaves
14 one.
15 MEMBER MOORE: No, there's still two
16 more.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: There's still two
18 more? Yes.
19 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, Lynch and Coleman.
20 MS. CRENSHAW: Jessica Lynch --
21 MEMBER MOORE: And Melissa Coleman.
22 MS. CRENSHAW: Coleman.
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1 MEMBER MOORE: But I'm not sure if
2either -- I don't know.
3 MS. CRENSHAW: Has anybody ever
4reached out to Jessica or Melissa?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: So Jessica was
6recommended. So we have her package.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, Shoshana
9recommended her to come on.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Coleman, we do not.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And the other
12 thing, we can get female participation through
13 spouses and VSOs. And the whole issue of racial
14 diversity may or may not be possible for us, but
15 I don't know.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: So legally, we can't
17 ask the question.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: First of all, you
19 can't ask the question to ask somebody. You
20 can't ask that question.
21 MEMBER KUSHNER: A foreclosed thought
22 when you ask them.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So just finding
2people that are willing to serve is the big deal
3and getting recognized. One of the diversity
4issues that we've had that we have dealt with is
5medical professionals, making sure we had
6somebody with a medical background on here
7because that was helpful. And we had McNish
8obviously which gave him a couple of hats. And
9it seems like we've always had from the Mitchell
10 Center on the Committee.
11 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, and there have
12 obviously been several problems with that, not
13 just the funding issue but the rather thorny
14 issue of one Secretary tasking an employee of
15 another Secretary.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, that's why we
17 -- yes, some of those, like Mac Ambrose, have
18 been retired from the Mitchell Center so long --
19 MEMBER MOORE: Right.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- that we didn't
21 have that.
22 MEMBER MOORE: Yes.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Now that you're
2retired, we don't have that. And Bob Hain is
3retired --
4 MEMBER MOORE: Yes.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- we don't have
6that.
7 MEMBER MOORE: So we've got that
8covered for a while.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Getting somebody
10 currently.
11 MEMBER MOORE: Your current one was my
12 replacement.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The other thing
14 that we have that can broaden our perspective, as
15 I understand it, is our working groups or
16 subcommittees are not subject to the ACMO rules.
17 They don't have to be appointed in the same way.
18 And so our working groups, if we're having
19 somebody go to ACDC -- not the concert of the
20 rock group -- but --
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- it could be one
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1of us, somebody that's served on this Committee
2before because there are no term limits applied
3to that plus the DFO.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: And Jelessa just
5confirmed that, for the working group, we can
6pull from previous members. And so I definitely
7know a few of them are interested in mainly
8contact and serving with this Committee. So
9that's one option that we have available.
10 Because even Dr. McNish, he was going to try to
11 attend this meeting virtually, but he was unable
12 to, so --
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So since we've been
14 thrown out of the box already and been struggling
15 to put it back together for a couple of years,
16 let's think about how we can gain that expertise.
17 So Harry, for instance, your question
18 about your wife's service, she can serve on a
19 working group. The two of you could go to
20 someplace in the West Coast -- L.A., San Diego
21 area, maybe up to San Francisco -- if we had a
22 reason for that. Or if one of the committees you
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1were wanting to coordinate with is meeting out
2there, then that could be an official working
3group.
4 And DFO or the assistant DFO would
5have to be there to make it legal. But that's a
6way we can include people, the spouses more
7thoroughly and former members who are willing to
8continue to serve and to be productive.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: So are there any more
10 questions in regards to the member solicitation?
11 MEMBER KUSHNER: No, so let's
12 summarize what action we're going to take
13 regarding this problem. I'd like to know.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the first
15 thing is I will post the Federal Register. So
16 we'll agree that we'll leave it open for 45 days.
17 The next step after the Federal
18 Register closes, we'll have a virtual meeting to
19 review and prioritize the packages and ensure
20 that they are complete, and then from there,
21 submit them. And then it'll just have to concur
22 through the VA process. But when we submit them,
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1it will be with the goal to have the new members
2appointed before the D.C. meeting. And we'll
3have that date by the end of this week.
4 MEMBER KUSHNER: And as individuals,
5we should try to reach out to potential --
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
7 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- members?
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, yes, because --
9 MEMBER KUSHNER: And do our own
10 private solicitations --
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Exactly.
12 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- to solicit
13 interest at least so that the Committee can reach
14 out to those people.
15 MS. CRENSHAW: And so --
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
17 MS. CRENSHAW: -- in order to be kind
18 of timely, what, Leslie, do you think would be
19 the most ideal date to actually start
20 solicitation to leave it open for the 45 days to
21 give this Committee some time to reach out to
22 your connections and your people?
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1 And then we, in turn, be advertising,
2hey, go into the Federal Register or whatever and
3get it through VBA, knowing that it goes all the
4way up through a tedious chain of approval and
5keeping in mind it has to get out of BAS, gets
6out BAS, goes to 20P, goes from 20P to 20, and
7then back to ACMO and then to the Secretary. So
8you've got five layers there that it's going
9through.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. It would be
11 unkind to put it out before the December holidays
12 because people aren't going to pay attention.
13 MS. CRENSHAW: Attention.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So I would say 1
15 January or 2 January. And so by mid-February,
16 the nomination process closes, right?
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct, because we'll
18 leave it open for 45 days.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so sometime
20 mid-February to mid-March, we would be able to
21 look at the packages in a virtual meeting, review
22 them ahead of time so that when we get together,
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1we can economize our time on prioritization. And
2that should be finished within, say, two or three
3weeks of the closing of the Federal Register and
4then be able to send the priority up in through
5the chain to get it up there.
6 And then I will work with Leslie to
7redo the spreadsheet to propose a rotation
8schedule that would get us where we need to be
9within six years or maybe within three years.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: And so one of the
11 things I would advise is when we do the meeting
12 to review the packages is that we do extend an
13 invitation to ACMO so we can get their insight on
14 the packages but also ensure that what we're
15 submitting is accurate. Because when we do that,
16 then that eliminates some of the timeliness when
17 it concurs.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, so if you or
19 Jeff, one, could be present when we talk and have
20 reviewed the packages ahead of time with us so
21 that when we do get together, everybody has had
22 the opportunity to be fully familiar.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: But also in the
2Chairman-DFO Summit on January 11th.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: So then that will be a
5good opportunity for you to bring up some of
6these concerns --
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, I --
8 MS. WILLIAMS: -- with the Secretary.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- certainly intend
10 to do that. Okay. So then if we can get -- my
11 neck is getting stiff again. What is a
12 reasonable time from packet submission to
13 appointment? What would be a norm?
14 MS. BURNEY: Normally, it takes
15 anywhere between 45 to 60 days.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Forty-five to 60
17 days? So if we can get them in their hands by
18 1st of April, then that'll be mid-May to mid-
19 June. Okay. That works for me, because that
20 way, people can be notified on 1 October and we
21 don't have another meeting currently. We don't
22 have any dates scheduled for anything after. We
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1don't even have a date yet for Washington, do we?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And because of our
4experience with the Congress, this budget
5building process, we want to avoid October and
6through the middle of November for any proposed
7date for a meeting because we may or may not be
8able to do that. And we've had so many -- I've
9had, personally, so much frustration with setting
10 aside the calendar time and then in late
11 September being told it's not going to happen.
12 MEMBER KUSHNER: That's for sure.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And I know that Dr.
14 Kushner has had that same frustration --
15 MEMBER KUSHNER: That's for sure.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- because we have
17 shared it.
18 (Laughter.)
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So it's just -- and
20 that's not a problem -- that's not because of VA.
21 That's because of the Congress. Okay.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: So now, is it possible
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1-- if we do post a Federal Register on 1 January,
2it'll close on February 14th -- and we try and
3have our meeting the following weeks or the week
4of the 18th through the 23rd in hopes of getting
5the packages submitted by 1 March? Because I
6think if we wait till 1 April, that's 30 days
7that we're going to lose. But ultimately, it's
8going to affect when we can schedule the next
9meeting.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. So --
11 MS. WILLIAMS: And we do have a few
12 things happening at that meeting.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And you understand
14 the Federal Register. The end of the 45 days is
15 the last day for people to put in packages for
16 nominations; is that correct?
17 MS. WILLIAMS: So through the Federal
18 Register, yes.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: And then we can also
21 close it after that.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So as soon as they
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1hit, then it's closed?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. So any
4other nominations from other sources need to be
5in before that.
6 MEMBER HANTON: Why don't you just
7make it a 30-day Federal Register instead of 45
8and give us two extra weeks? You're not going to
9gain a whole lot in two weeks, so you can figure
10 it out by -- or we can figure it out.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So if it is closed
12 on February -- well, let's see. January 1st is a
13 --
14 MS. WILLIAMS: It's a holiday.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- is a holiday.
16 So from the 2nd of January to the 16th of
17 February, that Friday. And then when could
18 packages then be put in the hands of the members
19 of this Committee for review?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: So realistically --
21 because what I have so far and what some of the
22 members from Nam-POW have already started to
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1submit it to me, those will be complete. So it'd
2just be the timing is the compiling of what we
3receive from the Federal Register which,
4truthfully, I don't think will be a whole lot.
5So we can have our meeting in the following week.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So the week of the
718th of February?
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. And so I can
9work on having the packages to the members prior
10 to for preview, and then we can have our meeting
11 that week. So you just have to tell me the date
12 that you guys --
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: -- are available to
15 meet.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The 19th is
17 President's Day, so that's a federal holiday. So
18 that would be out. But is there a day of the
19 week that doesn't work for any of you? If we can
20 review them ahead of time, then it shouldn't take
21 more than an hour, do you think?
22 MEMBER KUSHNER: Wednesday doesn't
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1work for me.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So not on
3Wednesday. So can we shoot for February 22nd?
4 MEMBER KUSHNER: That's Washington's
5birthday.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: But President's Day
7is the 19th.
8 MEMBER HANTON: So a telephone
9conference on the 22nd of February.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So let's pencil
11 that in.
12 MS. CRENSHAW: Let me take a look. I
13 don't have anything on the calendar this far out
14 I'm sure, so I'll make it work. You know how VBA
15 does.
16 MEMBER MOORE: Just a quick question.
17 Does the definition of diversity compel us to
18 take someone from the Federal Register?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: No, you know what I
20 think what they mean by --
21 MEMBER MOORE: Because we could maybe
22 have three or four people right now.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.
2 MEMBER MOORE: Okay.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: But I think they want
4to have it from, like, eras represented, sexes,
5ethnicity, areas of expertise. So I think that's
6what she meant when she wanted to have us expand
7who we solicit and we request on the Committee.
8 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Okay. This goes
9back to my question. Is this just, what,
10 somebody who will let these things happen, or is
11 it a requirement?
12 MS. BURNEY: It became a requirement
13 from the Secretary.
14 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I'm sorry?
15 MS. BURNEY: It became a requirement
16 from the Secretary to see diversity that
17 represents the armed forces. So when you look at
18 the armed forces, we don't have just all purple
19 people or all orange people. We have a mix of
20 that, and so he wanted to see that and not go to
21 a Committee meeting and just see all blue people.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
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1 MS. CARSON: Or blue people with blue
2shoes?
3 MS. BURNEY: Yes.
4 (Laughter.)
5 MEMBER MOORE: Light blue or dark
6blue?
7 (Laughter.)
8 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Well, I guess I
9still don't have my question answered. Is it a
10 requirement?
11 MS. WILLIAMS: So I can send --
12 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Is --
13 MS. WILLIAMS: -- you something.
14 MEMBER MILLIGAN: -- what constitutes
15 diversity defined?
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, we can't say
17 we're going to have one from this group and one
18 from --
19 MEMBER MILLIGAN: Yes, right.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- that group and
21 one -- that's what I understand. But we have to
22 have more than all non-POWs. We have to have
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1more than all POWs generally. We need to have --
2if we're able to get Korea and World War II
3represented personally, then I think we should
4include that. If not, then I would like to see
5somebody that's representative of that group as
6long as there's anyone of them still alive.
7Somebody that works with those --
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: Just being alive is
9not enough, right? I mean, you have to be able
10 to travel.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: No, if they're
12 still alive, then they've got children and
13 grandchildren.
14 MEMBER KUSHNER: I see.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Or they have
16 caregivers or somebody that understands some of
17 the issues surrounding former POWs.
18 MEMBER MILLIGAN: I'm getting worried
19 about it, we agreed upon this process. We start
20 going through it, and all of a sudden, somebody
21 rejects the package because we didn't have enough
22 of --
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It's a crapshoot.
2Well, we just have -- I think if we explain, this
3is what we have and this is who was nominated or
4applied. And given our concerns about a broad
5representation, this is our priority.
6 MS. BURNEY: And so with the advisory
7committees, it is a part of the membership
8balance plan that you have a fairly balanced
9membership. And so what it says is that that
10 plan includes a selection of members that the
11 agency will consider a cross-section of those
12 that are effective, interested, and qualified,
13 and appropriate. And it also says to ensure that
14 they reflect the diversity of the American
15 society and veteran population. So that's a VA
16 policy.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so our veteran
18 population is actually former prisoners of war.
19 And so we don't represent the whole veteran
20 population. But it would be nice -- we've
21 historically had enlisted members on here, even
22 though most of the non-POWs were officers. And
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1so the rank structure balance, whatever, but just
2think about those. All right.
3 Can we move on? Thank you for being
4here.
5 MS. CARSON: You're welcome. Bye-bye.
6 MS. CRENSHAW: Buy, Laurine. See you
7next week.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I would suggest
9that we shoot for, right now, 3 o'clock Eastern
10 Time. That way, it's not too late in the day for
11 those of us who live on the East Coast and not
12 too early in the day for those who live on the
13 West Coast. And it'd be about noon on the West
14 Coast and somewhere in that neighborhood, but we
15 can coordinate that a little closer to time.
16 Right now, if you'll pencil in an hour or so on
17 the 22nd at 3 o'clock Eastern.
18 MEMBER CORRE: What day is that?
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's a Thursday.
20 MEMBER CORRE: So the 22nd, when is
21 that?
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's a Thursday.
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1 MEMBER CORRE: Thursday? Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. What's
3next?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So Mr. Marshall
5and I have a surprise for the Committee.
6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
7went off the record at 10:07 a.m. and resumed at
810:13 a.m.)
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: What else? What's
10 next?
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Recommendations --
12 coming up with any recommendations.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well --
14 MS. WILLIAMS: And so I was taking
15 notes throughout the meeting. So I know one of
16 the concerns that came up was in regards to
17 caregivers. So does anyone have any --
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Was that aid and
19 attendance issue, or was that a different one?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I think it was in
21 regards to --
22 MS. CRENSHAW: Aid and assistance?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Not aid and attendance
2but ensuring that the spouses are informed but
3also taken care of at the time -- don't make me
4say it.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: At the time when we
6croak.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't want to say it.
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: Say what?
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You mean the
10 surviving spouse issue? Is that the --
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- issue we're
13 talking about?
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so that response.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: See, I'm not sure
16 what -- see, I don't know what the law says about
17 that when -- what the VA can do beyond DIC.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: So that was -- we did
19 address that in a recommendation to have that
20 process automated. Well, I do know that, right
21 now, the VSOs, DAV particularly, they are trying
22 to have some type of legislation enacted to have
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1it so VA will compensate the spouses for
2essentially being a caregiver.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, so while the --
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- POW spouse is
6still alive and to compensate the caregiver,
7whoever that is, spouse or other person. Is that
8--
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- what we're
11 saying?
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Is that in process
14 somewhere?
15 MS. WILLIAMS: It's something that DAV
16 is working on. I'm not sure what their status is
17 because the last -- I attended their meeting in
18 August of -- no, which one, I'm sorry -- New
19 Orleans -- August of 2017 in New Orleans. And
20 that was one of the big things on their agenda
21 that they were pushing. As far as where they're
22 at, at this time, I do not know. But I do know
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1it's one of the legislation that they're writing
2up to have enacted. It has not been submitted
3thus far.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. So that's
5the Disabled American Veterans?
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so they would
8probably work through the Military Coalition to
9try to gain consensus among all those
10 organizations before they submit.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: I guess the result will
12 be is if it's enacted, once they submit it
13 through legislature -- which will probably take
14 some time. But if it's enacted, then it could
15 open a door for something specifically for this
16 Committee because there are a few spouses who
17 serve as the caregiver.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So is that a
19 recommendation we're ready to do? Is that
20 something we need to hear about from a DAV
21 representative?
22 MS. WILLIAMS: We could always table
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1it and invite someone to the D.C. meeting to give
2a thorough --
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Because they have
4an --
5 MS. WILLIAMS: -- statement.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- office in
7Arlington, I'm sure.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, yes, there, there.
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And if it's gotten
10 as far as the Military Coalition, then we need to
11 find out what that letter says for a recommend so
12 we can --
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Because that's
15 going to go straight into the Congress, and we're
16 advising -- our goal is to advise the Secretary,
17 right?
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct, on the needs
19 and services for this community -- for FPOW.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So I'm not sure
21 that we're -- or does anybody have an idea of
22 whether or not that would be a recommendation to
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1the Secretary for this Committee? And I packed
2away all my notes. So what else did you write
3down?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: So the other concerns
5wouldn't necessarily translate into a
6recommendation. But the other one was the
7inconsistencies in VA ratings. And I definitely
8know, right now, VA is undergoing rewriting the
9VASRD which sets the criteria for how we rate.
10 And as Ms. Carson briefed, that's projected to be
11 completed by 2019. So with that being said, I
12 don't know if that will necessarily translate
13 into a recommendation because it's something that
14 VA is currently working on.
15 But I guess if I had to think of
16 something, at one meeting, the issue that we were
17 looking at was frozen lung and those injuries
18 that were caused by the cold that are not on the
19 presumptive list. So that may be something that
20 we can revisit now, especially with VA rewriting
21 the VASRD.
22 But any thoughts or comments on that?
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: One thing that was
2in the 2017 that was non-concurred that I think
3we should revisit that was our recommendation
4that they -- as part of outreach, they encourage
5rated -- those POWs who were rated below 100
6percent to come in with it. And the way we put
7it was with the intention of trying to raise them
8to 100 percent.
9 And if we reword that to encourage
10 reevaluation in order to see if they're -- in
11 order to evaluate any increases in disability
12 that should be any increase in rating so we can -
13 - rather than being directed to get everybody to
14 100 percent, which a lot of folks want to do, of
15 the raters to have it. And all known
16 presumptives should be considered in every
17 evaluation of a former POW.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So for that one,
19 I actually had Ms. Crenshaw to come back in the
20 room because currently BAS is working on an
21 outreach letter. It's for FPOWs. And so I'll
22 defer to her for that.
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1 MS. CRENSHAW: Tell me. What was the
2question?
3 MS. WILLIAMS: So having FPOWs who are
4not rated at 100 percent, encourage them to come
5back in and to file a claim.
6 MS. CRENSHAW: So we did -- that was
7a recommendation, I think, of the Committee. And
8we looked at the recommendation, and we did
9discuss it and we sent it up. I don't think that
10 what we did -- what we cannot do from a rating
11 standpoint is we don't invite to deny. So we
12 don't know -- if they're already rated at 30, 40,
13 or 50 percent, we won't invite them and say,
14 come, you might be -- you may be able to get 100
15 percent.
16 What we will do -- the letter we
17 proposed was a letter that says -- a general
18 outreach letter to say, hey, have you visited
19 your VA lately? Get to know your VA. Or, we
20 would encourage you to just stay in touch with
21 VA. I don't want to tell them to come back in
22 and be rated again because they may get denied
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1something, and I don't want that to happen.
2 That was the discussion on encouraging
3them to come in, specifically, to be rated. But
4what we can do is encourage them to stay focused
5on their benefits, to maybe look at the -- and we
6can be creative with it.
7 We can send the presumptive list with
8the outreach letter or something to that nature
9but without saying, even though you're not 100
10 percent, so come back in. So we can word it,
11 wordsmith it, anything. You can say what you
12 want to say without actually saying it. Our goal
13 is to get them to come back in.
14 There may very well be some
15 individuals that are entitled to more. And Dr.
16 Certain, you and I talked about it. But they're
17 afraid to come, and they're not just FPOWs. I
18 hear from --
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I know.
20 MS. CRENSHAW: -- people all the time
21 that tell me, I'm not going to the VA because I'm
22 afraid that I'm going to be reduce. They're
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1going to take something away from me, so I'm
2going to leave what I have.
3 So yes, we are working on the outreach
4letter. We will outreach, and I will take the --
5I can list -- now, one of the things I can do, I
6can run a database of all those individuals based
7upon what they are ranked, zero to 100 percent.
8It will give me every FPOW that's in our system
9and every rating that they have. And I can
10 actually tailor an outreach letter to that
11 particular group.
12 But those that are 100 percent, if we
13 didn't want to outreach to them, I would not. I
14 would still want to, though, because that way, we
15 wouldn't be specifically just reaching out to the
16 ones that are zero to 30.
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, those who --
18 for instance, it seems to me there's a couple of
19 things we can do. One is to say, as former POWs,
20 remember that you can receive care at the VA.
21 MS. CRENSHAW: Right.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Dental care, eye
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1care, medical care, and anything that's service
2connected. The other is, here's some presumptive
3conditions based upon your service. And if you
4have any of these medical conditions that are not
5in your service-connected list, you may want to
6come in to have them added.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: And one of the things
8I would have to do with that, even -- and I'm
9just putting my rating hat back on now and my
10 policies and procedures hat. We had the
11 discussion yesterday about the time frame. We
12 know that there's no time frame for the FPOW, but
13 there is a time frame for those presumptive
14 disabilities to have -- for the presumption of
15 the disability.
16 So 30 days is the minimum time frame
17 for them to be able to -- for the presumptive
18 disability. They may very well have other
19 disabilities as well that they can be service
20 connected for that are not a presumptive. They
21 may be called by one of the presumptive
22 disabilities. They may be secondary --
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
2 MS. CRENSHAW: -- to a disability. So
3we would definitely -- we can word it. I could
4definitely word it in terms of care and benefits
5and services. Like, these may be some of the
6things that you are entitled to as an FPOW,
7without saying that, you may -- these are some of
8the -- I could say, these are some of the
9disabilities that you may be entitled to. If you
10 meet certain criteria, please contact, without
11 going into all the specifics because --
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right, okay.
13 MS. CRENSHAW: -- of the time frame.
14 Yes, we could definitely --
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So that's in
16 process --
17 MS. CRENSHAW: -- do something like
18 that.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- and I appreciate
20 knowing --
21 (Simultaneous speaking.)
22 MS. CRENSHAW: Yes, I have the draft
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1FPOW letter done. I just really need to get it
2through concurrence. And we'll make that a
3priority next week. The letter has already been
4ready. I just got to get it. We went through a
5period of transition, and I don't want to -- I'm
6very selective when I submit something for
7concurrence because I know the timing of it.
8 So the timing now would be perfect to
9submit it up for concurrence because we can get
10 it done before Christmas and have it out by
11 December the 29th. It will be done in this
12 quarter, I believe, anyway.
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. Thank you
14 for that.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: And so the other thing
16 is, at the last D.C. meeting, we provided to them
17 the list of FPOWs, what percentage they were
18 service connected at and also we had them to rank
19 it on disabilities. So if we were to get that
20 data, we'll just have to get it for the past year
21 and a half because we have the ten prior years.
22 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay. So Maquel, can
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1you take that -- noting that as an action item so
2that we can submit that to PA&I next week? So I
3should have a data request to PA&I by the close
4of business Wednesday I just tasked, right?
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: What? Oh --
6 MS. CRENSHAW: I'm hearing a "yes"?
7I'll have a --
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am.
9 MS. CRENSHAW: -- data request by close
10 of business Wednesday --
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
12 MS. CRENSHAW: -- to PA&I? Okay.
13 Those are easy asks. Those are easy -- that's
14 low-hanging fruit, easy breezy stuff that we can
15 do.
16 MEMBER KUSHNER: The goal is to have
17 every former POW rated 100 percent; is that the
18 goal?
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's an informal
20 goal of some raters and --
21 MEMBER KUSHNER: If that's the goal,
22 why not just say, if you're a former POW, you
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1are rated at 100 percent.
2 MS. CRENSHAW: You're not -- that's
3not going to happen.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: You can't do that.
5 MS. CRENSHAW: You can't. That's not
6going to happen. And I can tell you that that's
7not even logical because not everyone are going
8to -- and I've rated, and I've been a DRO. Not
9everybody is going to qualify for 100 percent.
10 Every individual, although they may have been a
11 POW, may not have the disabilities that would be
12 rated at 100 percent.
13 MEMBER KUSHNER: So then it's going to
14 be an honest evaluation then?
15 MS. CRENSHAW: Right.
16 MEMBER KUSHNER: Okay. Well, then --
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
18 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- I thought it was
19 just, we find something wrong with you. And if
20 we can't, you have PTSD and boost you up to 100
21 percent.
22 MS. CRENSHAW: Well, if you have PTSD,
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1PTSD is rated from zero to 100 percent. So based
2upon the level of disability, within the law --
3because we can't break the law. I look good in
4orange, but I don't look that good in orange.
5 (Laughter.)
6 MS. CRENSHAW: And so we will -- now,
7I encourage people and all raters are encouraged
8to give the highest evaluation that they can. If
9there's a benefit of the doubt, the doubt goes
10 for the veteran and it goes to the higher
11 evaluation. Let's just say you can rate at 60 as
12 opposed to 30. You're going to rate at the 60 if
13 the evidence is there to support it.
14 MEMBER KUSHNER: Okay. Well --
15 MS. CRENSHAW: What we -- right.
16 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- that's all you
17 need to say.
18 MS. CRENSHAW: Yes.
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: If the evidence is
20 there.
21 MS. CRENSHAW: We're going to give it
22 to you.
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1 MEMBER KUSHNER: I was approached in
22006 by my VA service officer and who said, you
3haven't even applied for any disability, and I
4can rate you 100 percent because of PTSD. And I
5said, I don't have PTSD. Jim told me I don't I
6didn't --
7 MS. CRENSHAW: Right.
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- have PTSD. Oh,
9yes, you do. You have PTSD. I don't want to
10 have PTSD.
11 (Laughter.)
12 MS. CRENSHAW: Well, unfortunately, we
13 do have some service officers --
14 MEMBER KUSHNER: You must.
15 MS. CRENSHAW: -- out there -- we do
16 have some service officers out there that do
17 that. They don't just do it with POWs. They do
18 it with a lot of veterans which causes the big
19 backlog that you sometimes see and the
20 disagreement between the veteran and the VA
21 because someone has said, I deserve this. Or
22 they go to a coffee shop and they sit down with
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1their buddy who is 100 percent and they say, I'm
2100 percent. You should be 100 percent.
3 Well, when we get the claim, the
4doctor having given the diagnosis -- now, what we
5do do is we do work with them. And if there's a
6disability that has not been identified, we let
7them know, these are some disabilities that you
8do have, particularly FPOWs.
9 So it's a little easier because the
10 work has already been done for you. You have
11 these disabilities that we know because of your
12 prisoner of war status that you're more likely
13 than not to have. And if any of those exist,
14 we're able to grant those disabilities without
15 any -- just because you have them.
16 MEMBER KUSHNER: But it is an honest
17 evaluation?
18 MS. CRENSHAW: It is an honest --
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: It's based on the
20 evidence?
21 MS. CRENSHAW: -- evaluation process
22 --
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The --
2 MS. CRENSHAW: -- based on the
3evidence.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- VSO doesn't rate
5anybody. The VSO files the claim, and then the
6physician at the medical center and the rating
7officer at the regional office --
8 MEMBER KUSHNER: Right, but there is
9some subjectivity to it.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
11 MEMBER KUSHNER: I mean, that's why
12 some people go to Mississippi or Seattle to be
13 rated.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, because
15 there's some inconsistency in the way raters
16 work.
17 MEMBER KUSHNER: Right.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so --
19 MS. CRENSHAW: But the rating scale --
20 and Ms. Carson was here. I wish she had heard
21 this discussion. So her office -- and they're
22 completely in charge of the 38 CFR rating scale.
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1They're redoing all the schedule of disabilities
2because, as you know, we were using a 1954 rating
3scale.
4 For years, we used an outdated,
5ancient rating scale. So the rating scale is in
6a process of every disability being looked at,
7and they have a team of doctors and professionals
8that's looking at that rating scale. And they're
9updating the rating scale.
10 Now, there are some disabilities that
11 have been rated really high that probably won't
12 be as high when they finish this rating scale and
13 there are some that may be bumped up. They're
14 trying to take out as much subjectivity in the
15 rating scale as possible which will allow for
16 more consistency in the rating process. But they
17 rate based on the rating scale, and there are
18 some disabilities on the 38 CFR Part 4 that does
19 allow for a lot more subjectivity than others.
20 Like, musculoskeletal is based upon
21 movement. It's based upon -- and solid hearing
22 loss is solid. But there are some such as
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1headache and pain and stuff that --
2 MEMBER MOORE: And PTSD.
3 MS. CRENSHAW: -- maybe a little bit
4more -- and PTSD based upon the symptomatology
5that the --
6 MEMBER MOORE: Right.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: -- veteran reports --
8 MEMBER MOORE: Right, right.
9 MS. CRENSHAW: -- to their physician.
10 And some of them wax and wane.
11 MEMBER MOORE: Right, right, yes.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. Questions?
13 Any other -- yes, go ahead.
14 MEMBER SORTILLO: No, no. I was
15 raising my hand for you.
16 MEMBER CORRE: Oh, for me? No, I'm
17 not that old.
18 (Laughter.)
19 MEMBER CORRE: Ask him. I would like
20 to say something on background and commendation
21 and a question. Unofficially -- or at that time,
22 unofficially, I attended these meetings
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1approximately 18 years ago when Dr. McNish was
2doing it, and in different cities, my wife and
3myself attended. And since then, in visiting the
4hospitals that we have, a lot of the questions
5that were processed at that time in those
6particular meetings that I went to -- or that we
7went to, I see them in use at the hospitals.
8 And I think that shows that how
9effective this organization is and what it's
10 done. And it should be commended for that
11 because a lot of those problems that we deal with
12 as VSOs have been taken care of and especially
13 for the POWs.
14 My question is -- and one that still
15 comes up all the time, and I don't know if I'm
16 beating a dead horse or not -- what is being done
17 by VBA for the POWs and the general servicemen,
18 in general, about the records that were burned in
19 St. Louis or destroyed? Because just recently,
20 out of the woodwork, I met a POW and he said,
21 well, he's never gotten a thing because they told
22 him his records were ruined.
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1 MS. CRENSHAW: So there is a process
2for records that were destroyed in St. Louis.
3The VA will work with those individuals that they
4know that if their digit -- the records are
5stored by sequential numbers or Social Security.
6And I'm not sure exactly how they were stored,
7but they are stored in a sequential number.
8 So there were certain records that we
9know were destroyed in that fire in St. Louis.
10 So based upon that person's Social Security
11 Number or file number, if they've been
12 identified, there's a process that VA has. And
13 I'd have to look it up because I can't really say
14 it offhand.
15 But there is a process that they can
16 go through to say, my records were destroyed and
17 here's what I have. And if they don't have
18 anything -- and they go through kind of a
19 rebuilding type process of trying to restore and
20 rebuild that or reconstruct the individual's
21 record based upon anything that they have,
22 anything that DoD may have, or things of that
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1nature and giving more credence to the fact that
2we know your records were destroyed.
3 So then more likely than not that
4we'll try and grant something than to deny
5something. And if you have the disability that
6you're claiming and in particular in a POW
7status, again, your status alone, knowing that
8you were FPOW, even if your records were
9destroyed, DoD will always have you in their
10 files as a former prisoner of war. So that, in
11 and of itself, is a big plus.
12 Then from there, what's the disability
13 that you actually are suffering from now that
14 you've been diagnosed with and that the doctors
15 will say, yes, he has it? Medical opinions
16 establish a lot more too. A medical opinion will
17 help this person, even once they've established
18 that they're FPOW, their records were destroyed.
19 Yes, this disability is such that they didn't
20 just get it yesterday. It's been a period of
21 time. We work with them to do that.
22 So even though their records were
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1destroyed, if you know someone that records are
2destroyed -- they've never filed a claim because
3they said their records were destroyed -- please
4send them to us so that we can help them recover
5from that lost time because we'd like to try to
6at least have them file a claim and let us do
7what we can do.
8 MEMBER CORRE: Okay. When you say,
9please send them to you --
10 MS. CRENSHAW: So get our contact --
11 MEMBER CORRE: -- now, and you're
12 talking about POWs now?
13 MS. CRENSHAW: I'm talking about
14 anyone that you know, if their records were
15 destroyed and they state that they're a veteran.
16 While we love POWs, we love all veterans. And
17 our job is to advocate on behalf and to take care
18 of any veteran.
19 So if there's a veteran you know out
20 there that's saying that, there's something wrong
21 with me and I've not filed a claim because my
22 records were lost in St. Louis, we encourage you
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1to get in touch with Leslie, Maquel, anyone, and
2we will route it to the right person.
3 Now, we don't rate anymore. None of
4us are going to work the claim. But we'll try
5and get them started and get them connected with
6the right people and then kind of help them on
7their way.
8 MEMBER CORRE: Okay. You'll hear from
9me, Leslie.
10 MS. CRENSHAW: Yes, Leslie was a VSR.
11 We've all been in the field.
12 MEMBER CORRE: As a service officer,
13 it's very frustrating because I do everything,
14 whether they're POWs, anything in any war, and so
15 does Marilyn. She's also VSO.
16 And one of the most frustrating is
17 when you call up VBA and say, well, this guy, his
18 records are gone. Nothing we can do about it.
19 And I say, wait a minute. He's a veteran. He's
20 fought. He's done this and that and the other,
21 and he's had different things, and you can't do
22 anything about it? We have no background. We
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1can't do anything without records.
2 MS. CRENSHAW: Well, we'll help them
3try to restore their records. So if I go in the
4system right now into VBMS and I look to see
5whether they are in the system, sometimes they're
6in the system, sometimes they're not. We do this
7a lot with Native Americans because a lot of
8them, some of them are not in our systems and we
9have to --
10 But if they are, in fact, a veteran,
11 there is somewhere in the compilation of DoD, VA,
12 somewhere that will establish that. It may be a
13 little complex to do it, but we will work with
14 that individual to help us to help them
15 establish, first, their veteran status because
16 that's the very first thing.
17 They can't do anything if the veteran
18 status has not been established because you've
19 got to remember it's paperless. So if they look
20 into the system and there's nothing there,
21 they're right. There's nothing they can do as a
22 rater or a VSR. But there is something we can do
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1to try to help them get their stuff.
2 MEMBER CORRE: Well, I'm talking about
3people that come to me with a DD-214.
4 MS. CRENSHAW: Then we can --
5 MEMBER CORRE: So you know he's a
6veteran.
7 (Simultaneous speaking.)
8 MS. CRENSHAW: And then we can work
9with them.
10 MEMBER CORRE: Thank you. Thanks a
11 lot.
12 MS. CRENSHAW: Yes, we can work -- the
13 DD-214 establishes, and we can work with them.
14 MS. CORRE: I think what you're saying
15 is probably correct except when you come into the
16 --
17 MEMBER CORRE: The medical records or
18 anything else.
19 MS. CORRE: -- medical side and the
20 benefit side. And if it's not available right
21 there, it's not there. And it's a classic thing.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. We're
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1getting a little far afield from our focus. So
2let's carry this --
3 MS. CRENSHAW: So Harry, if you have
4something --
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- outside the
6room.
7 MS. CRENSHAW: -- please refer to --
8just commit with us, and we'll try to help you
9the best we can.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: There will be gaps
11 in some of those records.
12 MS. CRENSHAW: There will definitely
13 be gaps.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And so anecdotal
15 evidence, is that acceptable to fill the gaps --
16 MS. CRENSHAW: We look at all --
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- as the testimony
18 from other veterans who served with the person,
19 that sort of thing?
20 MS. CRENSHAW: We do look at all
21 evidence.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, good.
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1 MS. CRENSHAW: Lay evidence as well.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. What
3other potential recommendations? We don't really
4have any yet, and it's not necessary to have any.
5And if it occurs to us later that when we get
6back and review our personal notes, if we need to
7do some -- we're not going to write the letter
8today like we used to do. And we can roll them
9into our next meeting.
10 Anything else from your notes that we
11 need to consider?
12 MS. WILLIAMS: That was it for my
13 notes, but I just remembered something. So not
14 to keep beating the membership thing in the
15 ground. So essentially, we have 12 members on
16 this Committee. However, the charter only states
17 that we need to have a minimum of ten.
18 So if I remember correctly, the
19 thought behind having 12 members on the Committee
20 was to be able to backfill behind the two who
21 were rolling off. So essentially, if we stick to
22 that plan, then we would not have a gap. So if
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1you look at the dates in which individuals who
2are scheduled to roll off. So even with Dr.
3Kushner and Shoshana rolling off, we still
4would've met that requirement.
5 MEMBER MOORE: Still have ten
6remaining you mean?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: We'll look at --
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Which is what the
10 charter states that we need to have.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, anyway, you
12 and I can talk about that after I get back to my
13 computer and redo the spreadsheet, and we can
14 work on this.
15 MS. CRENSHAW: I actually have the
16 draft outreach letter if you want me to kind of
17 read a little bit of what it says.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
19 MS. CRENSHAW: It says -- it started
20 out with, notice of former prisoner of war
21 disability benefits. Please apply. So I ask
22 them to apply. I'm sorry. And you may qualify
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1for disability benefits. That's our heading.
2 We're writing to you because you were
3formerly a prisoner of war. If you're currently
4suffering from disabilities or disease which you
5think may have resulted from your military
6service, we invite you to apply for benefits from
7the Department of Veteran Affairs.
8 Former POWs are entitled to
9presumptive service-connected compensation
10 payments and health care for the following eight
11 disease regardless of the length of captivity.
12 And it talks about the psychosis, dysthymic
13 disorders or depressive neurosis, post-traumatic
14 osteoarthritis, any of the anxiety states, cold
15 injuries, stroke and complications, heart disease
16 and complications, osteoporosis on or after
17 October the 10th, 2008 when post-traumatic stress
18 disorder is diagnosed.
19 And then if you were a captive for 30
20 days or more, you are entitled to compensation
21 for the following additional disabilities. And
22 it goes on to list the whole list of
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1disabilities.
2 If you have not applied for VA
3benefits and have been diagnosed with one of the
4above disabilities, please file a claim with VA.
5If you have other disabilities not listed here
6which you think may have resulted from your
7military service, please file a claim for those
8conditions as well. Benefits may include tax
9free, blah, blah, blah.
10 And we can't add in here, if you have
11 any of these disabilities and believe that they
12 have worsened, then we encourage you to reapply
13 for disabilities. So that's the only thing
14 that's not missing because this was an outreach
15 letter where we were trying to reach out to those
16 individuals that had not applied. But we can
17 definitely add the caveat, if you're already
18 service connected and believe any of your
19 service-connected disabilities have worsened, we
20 invite you to submit a claim as well. And that's
21 it, and then we just need to get it out.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. And the
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1submission of a claim will result in the protocol
2physical?
3 MS. CRENSHAW: For an FPOW. For their
4initial claim, yes. They're have their --
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Or for subsequent
6claims?
7 MS. CRENSHAW: Claims? I'd have to
8look at the reg. Let me look that up --
9 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
10 MS. CRENSHAW: -- before I answer
11 that.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The reason I ask is
13 that, to me, the process has always included the
14 claim file and a physical to verify the claim.
15 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, yes, they'll always
16 get -- if they file a claim --
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
18 MS. CRENSHAW: -- and they have --
19 they will get an exam. And with the things with
20 DBQs now, they can actually submit a lot of those
21 from their own private doctor.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So can we include
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1there that once the claim is received, then you
2can expect to hear from the VHA about -- or
3whoever it is that does the physicals?
4 MS. CRENSHAW: I can't include that.
5Yes, I have to verify. Let me verify before I
6tell you, yes.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
8 MS. CRENSHAW: I don't want to say,
9yes, and I misspoke. I need to do some research
10 --
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
12 MS. CRENSHAW: -- on that.
13 MS. CORRE: Can I just say one thing
14 about that?
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Sure.
16 MS. CORRE: The fact that the C&P
17 exams are put together by VBA and not the
18 hospital.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, okay.
20 MS. CRENSHAW: We scheduled it.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, good.
22 Anything else that we need to consider? All
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1right. I'll compose a letter to the Secretary
2reviewing what we did, thanking him for the time
3and all that sort of stuff.
4 Do we yet have a proposed date for our
5meeting at the Central Office?
6 MS. WILLIAMS: We do not, but I will
7defer to Ms. Crenshaw.
8 Do you have some input on what you
9feel would be the best date to have a meeting in
10 D.C.?
11 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, we'd have to look
12 when we got back. I think you guys need to come
13 up with something sooner, like, a date so that we
14 can start planning.
15 What would be an ideal date for you,
16 Dr. Certain?
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I'm retired. For
18 me, what would be ideal, as you know, would be
19 for the Secretary to be able to be present and
20 for the meeting to occur in the Central Office.
21 MS. CRENSHAW: And we can work on
22 that. We can work with ACMO on that. We can --
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So --
2 MS. CRENSHAW: -- work with the
3Secretary's office to find out exactly his
4schedule. So the sooner we schedule something
5and invite the Secretary to it, that would be
6better because that's what the other committees
7do. They actually --
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
9 MS. CRENSHAW: -- schedule and invite
10 the Secretary. So the sooner we set a date and
11 invite the Secretary, then he'll put it on his
12 calendar. So the further out we determine a
13 date, the better our opportunities are for
14 getting the Secretary on our agenda.
15 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So I would say --
16 I would guess sometime the second or third week
17 in May so we're there before Memorial Day and we
18 have enough time to get other things done and,
19 potentially, in April. But I would --
20 MS. CRENSHAW: Before Rolling Thunder.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: When is Rolling
22 Thunder?
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1 MEMBER MOORE: Memorial Day is the
228th of May.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, so we don't
4want to be there Memorial Day because the hotel
5room prices go up, right?
6 MS. CRENSHAW: So maybe two weeks --
7the second week in May?
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, something like
9somewhere the week of May 7th or something.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: For the rest you, how
11 does your schedule look in May?
12 MEMBER HANTON: I have a wedding on
13 the 12th of May, so I will not be able to be --
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: But earlier in that
15 week?
16 MEMBER HANTON: I have a wedding to go
17 to on the 12th of May, so that's in Georgia. So
18 as long as I can get to that. Actually, it
19 starts --
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's a --
21 MEMBER HANTON: -- on the 11th.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- Saturday, but if
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1we met the first of that week?
2 MEMBER HANTON: Oh, yes, the first of
3the week wouldn't be a problem.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
5 MEMBER HANTON: The end of the week
6would be a challenge.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The following week,
8the week of the 15th is probably --
9 MS. CRENSHAW: That's pushing up
10 against -- well, that's the middle of the --
11 that's the week before -- you still got a whole
12 week before Memorial Day if you -- and that's the
13 16th through the --
14 MEMBER HANTON: 18th?
15 MS. CRENSHAW: -- 18th. For me, I
16 know --
17 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Memorial Day is on
18 the 28th this year.
19 MEMBER HANTON: And Mothers' Day is
20 the 13th.
21 MS. CRENSHAW: The third week is
22 better because I actually have a wedding that
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1Cole and Kenzie are in the first week of May. So
2the week of the 14th through the 18th seems like
3it's a better week for everybody, if you all can
4--
5 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, early in the
6week of the 7th would be -- he would be able to
7get to his wedding --
8 MS. CRENSHAW: Yes, that would be
9good.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- and you'd be
11 able to get to your wedding. So I would say
12 early in the week of the 7th or maybe your
13 wedding is on what day?
14 MS. CRENSHAW: My wedding is on the
15 5th, and it's in --
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, but the --
17 MS. CRENSHAW: -- Mobile, Alabama.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- week of the
19 14th?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: So would it be the week
21 of the 7th as the first choice and the week of
22 the 14th --
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The 14th is the
2second --
3 MS. WILLIAMS: -- is the second?
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- choice.
5 MS. CRENSHAW: Second choice.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Do we want to have a
7third choice just in case?
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Let's don't do
9that. It gives people too many choices.
10 MS. CRENSHAW: Yes, that's what I
11 think too. And keep in mind that it would be the
12 early part of the week of anywhere from the 7th
13 through the 10th to allow enough time to get to
14 his wedding. And then the next week is open,
15 period, completely.
16 MEMBER KUSHNER: Okay. I want to just
17 say I'm still working.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: So when I take off,
20 it costs me a lot of money.
21 MS. CRENSHAW: We will definitely make
22 sure.
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1 MEMBER KUSHNER: So --
2 MS. CRENSHAW: And Wednesday is your
3working day?
4 MEMBER KUSHNER: I work more than
5Wednesday. I work Wednesday and Thursday and
6then when many of my partners are off, I work
7then.
8 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay. You definitely
9need to know.
10 MEMBER KUSHNER: I need to know. What
11 I don't want to happen is I schedule that I'm
12 going to be here and then the meeting is
13 cancelled at the last minute.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
15 MS. CRENSHAW: Right.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's happened too
17 many times.
18 MS. CRENSHAW: I agree.
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: That really upsets
20 me.
21 MS. CRENSHAW: It would upset me too
22 if I lost money.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So it'd be best
2money to travel Sunday, meet Monday-Tuesday,
3finish up on Wednesday. That way you could leave
4on Tuesday night and get back --
5 MEMBER KUSHNER: Super.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- to work, if
7necessary.
8 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay.
9 MEMBER KUSHNER: So what was the day
10 we were looking at?
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The first of the
12 week of the 7th, the first couple of days or --
13 MEMBER KUSHNER: Perfect.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- the following
15 week.
16 MS. CRENSHAW: But the first part of
17 the week to allow --
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So it'd be --
19 MS. CRENSHAW: -- you time.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- the week of the
21 May 7th or the following --
22 MEMBER KUSHNER: I have no objection
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1--
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- week.
3 MEMBER KUSHNER: -- to meeting on
4Saturday or Sunday.
5 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, I have objection to
6meeting on Saturday or Sunday.
7 MEMBER KUSHNER: Well, we just have to
8override your objections.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MS. CRENSHAW: Saturday or Sunday does
11 not allow me and my staff to have good quality of
12 life.
13 MEMBER KUSHNER: But one Saturday or
14 Sunday out of 52.
15 MS. CRENSHAW: So I don't think
16 anybody is going to go for that in VBA.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: For a Saturday meeting?
18 MS. CRENSHAW: A Saturday --
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: No, they won't.
20 MS. CRENSHAW: -- and Sunday meeting,
21 that's not happening.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: No, they won't.
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1All right. Anything else?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: That's all.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, so is there any
5speaker topic specifically that you guys want to
6hear for the D.C. meeting? So I know we're going
7to invite the SECVA, but --
8 MEMBER CORRE: With everything going,
9could you speak a little louder?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Are there any
11 particular speakers or topics that you will like
12 to have at the D.C. meeting?
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Well, one, I think
14 we would do well to hear about is the specifics
15 on aid and attendance -- the rules about aid and
16 attendance. So if we have some recommendations
17 to make on that issue based upon what we heard
18 here, then we will have better knowledge about
19 it. And at that point, we need to coordinate
20 with others who might be concerned like ACDC and
21 any other committee, if anybody else is working
22 on it.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Now, there is one
2that's -- the Committee on Special Disabilities.
3So that's one of the committees that we were
4cross-collaborating with. So we could always
5extend an invitation to them as well as the
6survivors -- the new committee they just
7established for survivors.
8 MS. CRENSHAW: And caregivers.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, survivors and
10 caregivers.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: So we can extend an
13 invitation to them as well.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right. And in the
15 meantime, if we can get their meeting dates so we
16 can send a working group to meet with them.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: So ACDC is scheduled to
18 meet next week.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Next week in
20 Washington.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, and they'll be
22 meeting in my building where I sit, so I'll
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1definitely be popping into that meeting, and if
2you get confirmation on Mr. Corre.
3 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Can you travel to
4Washington next week?
5 MEMBER CORRE: No, I couldn't make it.
6 MS. CRENSHAW: Is it next week?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: For ACDC.
8 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, the ACDC meeting.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: So I'll be in
10 attendance. So that's a good thing. I'll be
11 able to take some notes.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay, good.
13 MS. CRENSHAW: Then the disability --
14 advisory committee on disability, the one that
15 Laurine is meeting.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, if they have
17 teleconference capability --
18 MS. WILLIAMS: To dial in?
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- then perhaps
20 some of us could dial in and listen to --
21 MS. CRENSHAW: Laurine said she did.
22 It's her committee. I'm pretty sure there's a
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1dial-in number because she said there's always a
2committee member that dials in. So it's Ms.
3Carson's committee, and I'm pretty sure they'll
4have a dial-in number. We always participate on
5it, and we don't always walk over to the
6building.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I can't travel next
8week, but I probably -- if there's a discussion
9that our committee needs to be in on, at least I
10 will do my best to make sure I have the time to
11 dial in while they're having that discussion.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So what I'll do
13 is I'll reach out to their DFO to get a copy of
14 their agenda and then also the dial-in
15 information. And I can just send it out to
16 everyone, and you can dial in on a particular
17 question of interest for you.
18 MEMBER MOORE: Would it be possible to
19 get similar information on the Gerontology Group?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: That's a good one.
22 Yes, all of those groups that we listed off the
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1other day and that you've got that email on.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Are there any other
3topics, speakers -- particular speakers? So I
4know Dr. Certain and I talked about having a
5Chair.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Oh, inviting the
7chairs of both the House and Senate Veterans
8Affairs Committees because we report to them
9through the Secretary to send their staff or
10 somebody to come and participate with us and
11 brief us on what's going on in Congress.
12 MEMBER HANTON: How can we help them?
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes, and how can we
14 help them get --
15 MS. WILLIAMS: Now, would you guys
16 like to extend another invitation to Compensation
17 Service to come back and provide an update on the
18 DRC process, the Decision Ready Claims? Because
19 as of now, it doesn't pertain to FPOW. But per
20 her briefing, they are expanding the program.
21 And so FPOW claims will be included underneath
22 that.
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1 So would you want to have her, our
2representative from that office, come back to
3speak to, I guess, the procedures and also
4provide statistics?
5 MEMBER KUSHNER: If you suggest it.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: I think it --
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I would --
8 MS. WILLIAMS: -- would be good to
9have her.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- always like to
11 have an update on any outreach efforts and
12 results across the country. And by way of
13 statistics, any new POWs that have come in for
14 the first time as a result of outreach, any that
15 are receiving additional benefits because of it,
16 that sort of thing. In other words, how
17 effective are we being in finding those POWs who
18 have no yet come into the system?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: So another thing I
20 thought of that may be good, if everyone can look
21 at -- because I provided a copy of the 2017
22 recommendations. So if everyone can look at the
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1recommendations to see which VISN sites we want
2to invite back to provide follow up or the status
3on their action plan and how they're implementing
4those recommendations. So I think that would be
5something good for us to have.
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And we certainly
7need to get -- hopefully, by the next meeting, we
8will have the 16 recommendations finalized,
9right?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So the good thing
11 for those is they just have to be signed off on.
12 Implementation is actually further along on the
13 2016 than the 2017. So it would just be getting
14 a signed copy by the SECVA to solidify it into
15 law.
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. So it's all
17 ready for his signature; is that what you're
18 saying? All 16?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. So we didn't
21 have to run it back through ACMO again?
22 MS. WILLIAMS: No.
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: They were bound?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: In fact, on each VISN
3site or each office that we went to, they just
4have to attach a sheet showing that they reviewed
5it and they provided a response. And then we can
6roll it up to the Secretary.
7 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. Then beyond
8Washington, where are the sites we want to go?
9What's the next site, the out of D.C. site for
10 our meeting beyond that? And we'll have to
11 coordinate with that site to see when they're
12 available. The reason we didn't go to San
13 Francisco is they're renovating the hospital, and
14 so that was not a good time for them. But San
15 Francisco is still on our list.
16 MEMBER MOORE: And the list last time
17 was San Francisco, sort of Orlando -- well, here,
18 yes, sort of Orlando.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: The Mitchell Center was
20 one of the ones that was --
21 MEMBER MOORE: No, that's not it.
22 That's --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: That's gone now?
2 MEMBER MOORE: That should always be
3-- that should be taken off probably forever.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. You said
5forever?
6 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, I don't think that
7that's --
8 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I mean, there's a
9VA hospital down there, but that's --
10 MEMBER MOORE: Yes, yes.
11 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: The Mitchell Center
12 itself is about as big as this room anymore.
13 MEMBER MOORE: Right.
14 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: It's a small
15 operation.
16 MEMBER MOORE: Yes.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
18 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I thought Honolulu
19 would be a good one.
20 (Laughter.)
21 MS. CRENSHAW: I did too when I was
22 drinking that wine. But now --
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1 (Simultaneous speaking.)
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: But now that you're
3sober, now, you don't think it's a good idea?
4 MEMBER MOORE: Do we have to go by
5plane?
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: No, train, train.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: How about Loma Linda?
8 MEMBER MOORE: Was Philly -- it seemed
9like Philly was on there.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Philly?
11 MEMBER MOORE: Was Philly on the list
12 or not?
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I can't really
14 remember.
15 MEMBER MOORE: Maybe it is.
16 MS. CRENSHAW: So when you're looking
17 at where you want to go, are you looking at the
18 compilation for FPOWs and maybe the issues
19 regarding the FPOW population in that area --
20 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
21 MS. CRENSHAW: -- as well?
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So if we can get an
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1idea of where the population of POWs are located
2around which VAMCs or --
3 MS. CRENSHAW: Okay.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: -- regional
5offices. And I would guess that those are
6probably pretty well run but not necessarily.
7And any that are having -- where problems are
8known to exist in the working with POWs, if you
9have anything on your pulse for that, so we can
10 go in, hear their concerns so we can make
11 recommendations. We're not there to judge.
12 We're there to help and to help the Secretary
13 identify areas that need improvement.
14 MEMBER CORRE: Is there a regional
15 office in San Diego?
16 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
17 MEMBER CORRE: They have a pretty high
18 --
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: There's a lot of
20 them. There used to be a lot of us down there.
21 And Loma Linda is also a part of that system.
22 MEMBER CORRE: Well, yes, okay. Loma
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1Linda, I know. Well, their population has
2dropped down considerably. I know Loma Linda,
3they used to send us the --
4 MEMBER MOORE: Dallas-Fort Worth is
5the -- that's a pretty big area.
6 MS. CRENSHAW: And that's the --
7 MEMBER KUSHNER: Nice and accessible.
8 MS. CRENSHAW: It is, and feasible in
9terms of cost too.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: We were Waco a few
11 years ago.
12 MS. CRENSHAW: Oh, Texas, so --
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: But not --
14 MS. CRENSHAW: So part of what -- and
15 this is just a little different with the faith-
16 based. When they have their faith-based regional
17 outreach, they try not to repeat the same area
18 within, like, a two-year period. Is it five now?
19 Good because it was really getting tight on where
20 we could go, so --
21 MEMBER HANTON: Part of it is too is
22 to find places that are doing well so you can
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1crossfeed the good ideas.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Right.
3 MEMBER HANTON: So it's not just --
4 MS. CRENSHAW: Is Loma Linda doing
5well?
6 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: San Antonio is a
7good one. Seattle is good.
8 MEMBER MOORE: I think the last time,
9if I recall correctly, Atlanta and Orlando were
10 sort of comparable in terms of how they were
11 doing.
12 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I think you're
13 right.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: They didn't really have
15 established programs.
16 MEMBER MOORE: Oh, Orlando didn't have
17 established programs? Well, that might be a good
18 one to go to for that reason.
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: They just built a
20 brand-new one.
21 MEMBER MOORE: Two or three years ago?
22 MEMBER KUSHNER: Yes.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So they're kind of like
2New Orleans in that they have a new facility but
3they don't have an established program. But
4also, they don't have a template. And if you can
5remember from the New Orleans meeting, we
6provided them a template.
7 And I can tell you when I was there
8for Nam-POW, I did visit the hospital. And they
9are implementing that template. In fact, they
10 just contacted me to get the training
11 certifications for their advocate. So I
12 definitely know they are applying that template.
13 So in the case of Orlando, it would be a good
14 idea to give them that template to help --
15 MEMBER MOORE: Jumpstart them.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: -- them establish a
17 program.
18 MEMBER MOORE: Right.
19 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Yes.
20 MEMBER MOORE: Jumpstart them.
21 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: So you could do
22 that directly, right?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: And then maybe a
3year after they get it, we could go down there
4and check in on them.
5 MEMBER MOORE: Sure.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Because New Orleans,
7they offered to host the Committee again while I
8was there.
9 (Laughter.)
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I'm sure they did.
11 MEMBER MOORE: Second, second.
12 (Laughter.)
13 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I don't mind going
14 there again.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: So I have one last
16 thing. Can everyone provide me their contact
17 information, cell phone number, home phone
18 number, address, and email? And then if you can
19 please cc: Mr. Marshall on the email just so we
20 can update our contact list. Because I know for
21 Dr. Moore, I kept emailing the Mitchell Center.
22 He was --
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1 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: After he retired.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: -- somewhere else.
3 MEMBER KUSHNER: Can I send you that
4via email?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.
6 MEMBER KUSHNER: Okay.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, please do.
8 MEMBER MOORE: The information on the
9card you gave us?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
11 MEMBER MOORE: I have to send it to --
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, and I gave
13 everyone mine as well as Mr. Marshall's card.
14 You said don't --
15 MEMBER KUSHNER: Don't call my home
16 phone.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: -- don't call your home
18 phone?
19 MEMBER KUSHNER: Nobody calls me but
20 Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: I don't have one of
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1those anymore just for that reason.
2 MS. CRENSHAW: Mr. Trump calls me all
3the time.
4 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: All right. Thank
5you for your work these last two and a half days.
6And again, as we go away, remember the working
7groups we discussed. If you're interested in
8working with a specific one, let us know. And
9let Leslie and me both know so that we can get
10 that on the schedule if you have --
11 And since working groups do not have
12 to have -- there's somebody else with an interest
13 that's not on the Committee that would be
14 interested in working with us with that working
15 group, we can make them members of the working
16 group without going through a lot of hoops. So
17 let's see what we can do about getting that
18 underway.
19 Once you get home, if you review the
20 notes in your folders and you find something that
21 you thought at the time was a good idea for a
22 recommendation, shoot that to us so we can put it
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1together. We'll probably not do recommendations
2from this meeting, but we'll start adding them
3for the D.C. meeting, unless something really
4critical shows up in our conversations.
5 And then review the last -- read
6carefully through the signed 2017 recommendations
7and anything that was non-concurred. If you have
8an idea of whether or not that needs to be
9revisited or in a different format that would
10 make it acceptable, then let me know that too so
11 we can consider rewording it and sending it too.
12 I'm not going to beat dead horses like
13 filing DIC by the POW advocate or coordinator and
14 the RO. Because with the Work Queue, that ship
15 sailed and that's not going to get changed. So
16 as long as that's -- what I would like, by the
17 way, is some idea of how fast DIC is awarded for
18 the widows of POWs so we'll have some confidence
19 that it's a good system.
20 MS. CRENSHAW: She could get that
21 data.
22 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Okay. That way,
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1we'll have confidence and won't have to fret over
2it. And when is exhibit Tom McNish, I can tell
3him it's going well. Pull out that last sheet of
4when we're talking for solicitation and remember
5the handbook and the sheet that describes what
6this Committee's focus is. And so when we
7recruit people, get that to them. All right.
8Bless you all. Get out of here.
9 MEMBER KUSHNER: Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN CERTAIN: Catch your airplane
11 or do whatever. If you have time before you
12 leave town, the Atlanta History Center has a
13 Vietnam exhibit up right now and it'd be up
14 through mid-March.
15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter
16 went off the record at 11:07 a.m.)
17
18
19
20
21
22
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A afraid 82:17,22 approach 24:14 56:6 94:20 99:22 a.m 1:10 3:2 74:7,8 agency 72:11 approached 90:1 backlog 90:19 136:16 agenda 76:20 110:14 appropriate 72:13 balance 72:8 73:1 abide 9:11 13:14 121:14 approval 61:4 balanced 72:8 ability 35:21 41:13 ago 6:18 33:13 44:17 approved 6:19 16:1 BAS 61:5,6 80:20 able 24:17 25:2 29:11 95:1 129:11 130:21 17:9 36:18 37:4 base 31:7,8 31:14 35:10,12 37:3 agree 28:1 59:16 approving 6:21 based 10:16 28:14 38:12,13 61:20 62:4 115:18 approximately 95:1 47:22 49:2 83:6 84:3 64:8 71:2,9 81:14 agreed 8:16 14:11,13 April 17:8 63:18 65:6 89:1 91:19 92:2 93:17 84:17 91:14 103:20 43:2 44:11 45:14 110:19 93:20,21 94:4 96:10 109:19 111:13 113:6 71:19 area 58:21 127:19 96:21 118:17 129:16 113:11 120:11 agreement 36:3 43:9 129:5,17 bear 24:19 above-entitled 74:6 ahead 61:22 62:20 areas 69:5 128:13 beat 135:12 136:15 67:20 94:13 argued 20:17 beaten 53:15 absolute 11:6 aid 31:11 74:18,22 75:1 argument 20:17 27:19 beating 95:16 103:14 Absolutely 45:13 118:15,15 Arlington 78:7 behalf 27:8 98:17 acceptable 29:1 102:15 airplane 136:10 armed 69:17,18 beings 19:8 135:10 Alabama 113:17 aside 64:10 believe 86:12 106:11,18 accessible 129:7 alive 71:6,8,12 76:6 asked 24:22 46:7 benefit 24:9 25:5,11 accomplish 48:18 allow 27:17 93:15,19 asking 9:14 23:18 89:9 101:20 accomplished 8:6 114:13 116:17 117:11 asks 87:13 benefits 82:5 85:4 accurate 62:15 Alternate 1:18 assistance 74:22 104:21 105:1,6 106:3 ACDC 41:19 52:15 Ambrose 56:17 assistant 1:21 59:4 106:8 123:15 57:19 118:20 119:17 American 72:14 77:5 Atlanta 1:10,10 130:9 best 27:17 102:9 109:9 120:7,8 Americans 100:7 136:12 116:1 121:10 achieve 16:11 ancient 93:5 attach 125:4 better 25:14,17 32:1 ACMO 12:7 19:11,17 and/or 3:20 attend 45:4 51:1,2,4,8 110:6,13 112:22 27:7 33:6 41:12 43:18 anecdotal 102:14 52:6,19 58:11 113:3 118:18 45:21 57:16 61:7 ANNA 1:21 attendance 31:11 50:12 beyond 12:13 22:22 62:13 109:22 124:21 announce 42:7 74:19 75:1 118:15,16 40:16 75:17 125:7,10 act 6:20 answer 37:2,8 107:10 120:10 big 56:2 76:20 90:18 Acting 1:20 answered 38:1 70:9 attended 5:8 51:13 53:9 97:11 126:12 129:5 action 59:12 87:1 124:3 Antonio 130:6 76:17 94:22 95:3 bigger 9:22 active 43:3 52:20 anxiety 105:14 attending 50:9 51:17 biggest 21:14 activity 51:9 anybody 41:4 49:9 55:3 attention 6:20 8:21 binders 4:4 actual 10:17 78:21 92:5 117:16 26:13,15 61:12,13 birthday 68:5 add 39:8 106:10,17 118:21 August 76:18,19 bit 17:17 94:3 104:17 added 84:6 anymore 19:21 49:17 authority 36:19 blah 106:9,9,9 adding 135:2 99:3 126:12 134:1 automated 75:20 Bless 136:8 addition 42:21 anytime 19:5,6,6 available 28:11 40:22 blue 69:21 70:1,1,5,6 additional 12:3 29:4 anyway 15:1 86:12 54:8,9 58:9 67:14 blurb 4:5 35:22 36:8,11 105:21 104:11 101:20 125:12 Bob 23:4 57:2 123:15 apparently 8:20 Avenue 1:10 book 42:11 address 75:19 132:18 appeared 48:13 avoid 64:5 Boomer 6:18 14:10 Adjourn 2:19 applications 23:14 awarded 135:17 boost 88:20 advantage 53:11 applied 58:2 72:4 90:3 boss 51:20 B advertised 7:13 106:2,16 bottom 34:17 advertising 61:1 apply 28:20 104:21,22 back 3:5 4:2 12:12 bound 125:1 advise 62:11 78:16 105:6 18:17 20:8 21:9 22:18 box 58:14 advising 78:16 applying 131:12 34:8 39:3 48:9 58:15 brand-new 130:20 advisory 1:3,19 4:4 appoint 17:21 61:7 69:9 80:19 81:5 break 89:3 37:9 72:6 120:14 appointed 5:9 6:11 15:5 81:21 82:10,13 84:9 breezy 87:14 advocate 29:5 98:17 15:6 35:21 38:6 57:17 103:6 104:12 109:12 brief 122:11 131:11 135:13 60:2 116:4 122:17 123:2 briefed 79:10 Affairs 1:1 105:7 122:8 appointment 4:18 124:2,21 briefing 122:20 affect 65:8 17:10 63:13 backfill 5:2 7:18 46:19 bring 27:1 63:5 afford 7:22 appointments 33:2 103:20 bringing 45:21 afield 102:1 appreciate 85:19 background 29:2,6 broad 72:4
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C E R T I F I C A T E
This is to certify that the foregoing transcript
In the matter of: Former Prisoners of War Advisory Committee
Before: US DVA
Date: 12-01-17
Place: Atlanta, GA was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.
------Court Reporter
Robert G. Certain Chairman VA Advisory Committee on Former POWs
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