Third Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Thursday, May 5, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 21, Number 2

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Third Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Don McRae Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development...... Hon. Minister of Education...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Housing...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Dr. Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Thomson Minister of Health...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation...... Hon. Minister of Labour, Citizens' Services and Open Government...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Dawn Black Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Douglas Horne Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James (on leave) Clerk Assistant and Acting Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Bennett, Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Harry Bloy Black, Iain (L)...... Port Moody– Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Hon. Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner, QC Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... –West End ...... Hon. Don McRae Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Coell, Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta North...... Guy Gentner Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Juan de Fuca...... Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway –North Thompson...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kamloops–South Thompson...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington –Lake Country...... Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay East...... Bill Bennett Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hawes, Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nechako Lakes...... Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead Nelson-Creston...... Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview New Westminster...... Dawn Black Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Coast...... Gary Coons Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Island...... Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain –Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Parksville-Qualicum...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River North...... Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo ...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krueger, Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond East...... Linda Reid MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Richmond-Steveston...... Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich North and the Islands...... McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Saanich South...... Lana Popham McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McRae, Hon. Don (L)...... Comox Valley Skeena...... Robin Austin Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Stikine...... Penner, Hon. Barry, QC (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver-Fairview...... Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Fraserview...... Simpson, Bob (Ind.)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kensington...... Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Stewart, Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver-Langara...... Dr. Stilwell, Dr. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver–Point Grey...... Vacant Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver-Quilchena...... Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vancouver–West End...... Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Beacon Hill...... van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South Victoria–Swan Lake...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yap, John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Vacant...... Vancouver–Point Grey Westside-Kelowna......

Party Standings: Liberal 48; New Democratic 34; Independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS

Thursday, May 5, 2011 Afternoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 6681

Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 6681 Bill 7 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2011 Hon. B. Penner Bill M204 — Fall Fixed Election Amendment Act, 2011 B. Simpson Bill M205 — Residential Tenancy Amendment Act, 2011 S. Chandra Herbert

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 6683 Motorcycle awareness H. Bains E. Foster First Nations treaty celebrations in Kyuquot C. Trevena Asian-Canadian heritage R. Lee Mount Pleasant Community Centre J. Kwan Mental health and work of Nancy Hall M. MacDiarmid

Oral Questions...... 6685 Cost of government information on A. Dix Hon. K. Falcon Impact of harmonized sales tax on families S. Chandra Herbert Hon. K. Falcon Job creation projections for harmonized sales tax J. Kwan Hon. K. Falcon Shellfish aquaculture and environmental review C. Trevena Hon. D. McRae Impact of proposed coal mine on shellfish industry C. Trevena Hon. D. McRae S. Fraser Premier's announcements during by-election campaign D. Routley Hon. S. Cadieux Government position on supervised injection site M. Farnworth Hon. M. de Jong

Tabling Documents...... 6689 WorkSafe B.C., annual report, 2010 Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply...... 6690 Estimates: Ministry of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation (continued) D. Routley Hon. P. Bell S. Fraser G. Gentner B. Simpson J. Kwan J. Brar

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 6718 Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture (continued) M. Sather Hon. D. McRae G. Coons L. Popham 6681

THURSDAY, MAY 5, 2011 Saltspring Island, where 100 percent of the babies are born into the caring hands of midwives; and Michele The House met at 1:35 p.m. Buchmann, who is a longstanding midwife in greater Victoria, where approximately 30 percent of the births [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] are assisted by a midwife. Would the House please join me in giving a warm Routine Business welcome to their visit to the Legislature.

Introductions by Members Hon. N. Yamamoto: I am pleased to introduce to the House today the recently married staff person in L. Popham: For my curious friends across the way, the Premier's correspondence branch. Her name is Julie I'm going to say the names of my guests first. I have D'Argis. Will the members please congratulate her and Sebastian and Damien here visiting from Germany, make her welcome. along with my husband Jon. They've joined our family for the next little while be- C. Hansen: It gives me great pleasure to introduce two cause of an amazing program called WWOOF, which special guests who I had the pleasure of having lunch stands for Willing Workers on Organic Farms. It's a with today in the dining room. One is a very charm- program that is offered to travellers around the world if ing young lady by the name of Ellie Girard. She is nine they want to come and incorporate themselves into your months old, and she showed me during lunch today how family life and share in a little bit of farming, eat meals she learned to clap very nicely. And of course, all polit- with your family and sort of learn about our culture. It's icians appreciate British Columbians learning that at a a fantastic program. By the end of the stay they usually very young age. She is accompanied today by her mother are part of our family. Devon Girard, who was such a great help to me as exec- Welcome to the House. utive assistant in the years that I served in Economic Development and Finance. D. Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 54 I hope that all members, with our clapping, will show students from grade 5, our future leaders who are vis- Ellie and Devon how much we appreciate them joining iting here from the Pacific Academy, one of the best us here today. schools in , from my riding of Surrey-Tynehead. Joining them are their teachers Mrs. Nancy Bakken, Mrs. E. Foster: Joining us in the House today is a longtime Sue U-Ming and Mrs. Sharon Van Dijk as well as 21 par- friend of mine and the mayor of Vernon. Would the ents and volunteers who have taken time away from House please make His Worship Mayor Wayne Lippert their busy schedule to accompany these kids. Would the welcome. House please make them very welcome. Introduction and Hon. K. Falcon: It gives me great pleasure to inform First Reading of Bills the House that today marks the International Day of the Midwife, an occasion that is celebrated in over 50 coun- Bill 7 — MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES tries around the world, including here in Canada. In AMENDMENT ACT, 2011 recognition of this, I am pleased to inform the House that here in British Columbia has proclaimed Hon. B. Penner presented a message from His Hon- today, May 5, as British Columbia Midwives Day. our the Administrator: a bill intituled Miscellaneous In our province midwives are highly trained, univer- Statutes Amendment Act, 2011. sity educated and publicly funded and regulated. They [1340] are an important contributor to our health care sys- tem and deliver over 10 percent of the 40,000 babies Hon. B. Penner: I move that the bill be introduced delivered every year in British Columbia. Midwifery and read a first time now. care improves health outcomes and is evidence-based. Midwives are deeply committed to the health and well- Motion approved. being of mother, baby and family. To help celebrate British Columbia Midwives Day, Hon. B. Penner: I'm pleased to introduce Bill 7, the greater Victoria midwives, their supporters and little Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2011. This bill ones are walking from Clover Point to the front steps of amends the following statutes: the Adult Guardianship the Legislature today beginning at four. and Planning Statutes Amendment Act, 2007; the Family Joining us here in the gallery today we have two Maintenance Enforcement Act; the Clean Energy Act; midwives: Kelly Hayes, who practises midwifery on and the Ministry of Environment Act. The bill also 6682 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

makes a number of consequential housekeeping and orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of clarifying amendments to other statutes. the House after today. Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be placed on the or- ders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of bill m205 — Residential Tenancy the House after today. Amendment Act, 2011

Bill 7, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2011, S. Chandra Herbert presented a bill intituled Residen- introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on tial Tenancy Amendment Act, 2011. orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. S. Chandra Herbert: I move the bill be introduced and read a first time now. BILL M204 — FALL FIXED ELECTION AMENDMENT ACT, 2011 Motion approved.

B. Simpson presented a bill intituled Fall Fixed Elec- S. Chandra Herbert: I rise today to ask each and tion Amendment Act, 2011. every member of this House for their support for the Residential Tenancy Amendment Act, 2011. B. Simpson: I move that the bill be introduced and This is a bill for renters who've withstood incredible read a first time now. odds and an imbalance of power to fight to stay in their homes. It's a bill for residents of the Seafield, who with- Motion approved. stood attempts to jack up rents 73 percent through the geographic area increase clause and the same landlord's B. Simpson: This act amends the Constitution Act attempt to drive them out through phony renovations. in order to bring greater transparency and account- This is a bill for the residents of Emerald Terrace, where ability to the budgeting process surrounding British they had to fight fake renovation attempts again and Columbia's fixed general election date. Moving the gen- again just to stay in their homes. eral election from May to October will ensure that the It's a bill for thousands of British Columbians who provincial budget cannot be used for political purposes are unknown, who've been forced out of their homes every four years. because of a few landlords who abuse loopholes in Having elections in the fall will require the governing the legislation. Also, they can get around the law and party to introduce a budget that accurately reflects the state drive up rents. It says no to massively jacking up rents of the government's finances and program priorities in for renters. It puts into law what is there in spirit. It the spring. Moving the election date from May to October says no to big landlord companies who try to evict would also ensure election year budgets are scrutinized long-term tenants under the pretext that it's for use by the opposition and the public and are passed into law, of a landlord, when there are actually other suites providing certainty to the public service and organizations available. that are dependent on government program spending. Fall This bill says yes to the vast majority of landlords elections would also allow the public to access the comp- and renters who do follow the rules and maintain troller general's assessment of the government's finances long-term relationships based on trust, a home based presented to Public Accounts in late June. on peace and quiet enjoyment, and a steady income This bill proposes that the first fall election be held on for the property owner. It follows some of what the October 11, 2012. The current fixed election date is May Liberal government has had in place for years 14, 2013, and it would be reasonable to hold the first fall to protect renters. election in October 2013. As members will know, there are a number of other However, there have been some indications from both steps needed to balance the rights and responsibilities of the Premier and the opposition that an earlier election landlords and tenants, but this bill is a good first step. It date is desirable. My hope is that October 11, 2012, will could be passed into law this week or next week to im- be soon enough for both parties to seek new mandates mediately protect long-term tenants who are currently while still respecting the principle of having fixed elec- living under the threat of mass eviction or massive rent tion dates. hikes because of an unbalanced and unfair Residential Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be placed on the or- Tenancy Act. I hope members of this House will think of ders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of their constituents and unite to pass this bill. the House after today. I move this bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of this House after Bill M204, Fall Fixed Election Amendment Act, 2011, today. introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on [1345] Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6683

Bill M205, Residential Tenancy Amendment Act, ICBC, there are over 90,000 motorcycles registered in 2011, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be British Columbia, a number that continues to rise. This placed on orders of the day for second reading at the is why raising awareness of motorcycle safety is vitally next sitting of the House after today. important. Motorcyclists are seven times more likely to be killed in a crash than other road users. Statements Today many of my fellow members from both sides (Standing Order 25B) enjoyed a brief tour around downtown Victoria and James Bay. The British Columbia Coalition of Motorcyclists MOTORCYCLE AWARENESS was good enough to come out each year and take every- one for a ride and let everybody experience what it's like H. Bains: May is Motorcycle Awareness Month. To to be on a motorcycle. This annual event gives LAM s and kick off Motorcycle Awareness Month today, the B.C. their staff a glimpse of the passions they have for their Coalition of Motorcyclists organized their 21st annual amazing pieces of machinery. MLA Ride. This public awareness campaign started May The BCCOM does great work advocating for motor- 1 to convey the importance of being aware of motorcycle cyclists' rights in our province. This is a membership- drivers who share our roads. driven organization, and they have become instrumental As the weather warms up, we are asking drivers to in promotion of motorcycle safety, education and awareness take extra caution and watch for motorcyclists. In in British Columbia. BCCOM has worked hard to raise urban areas crashes involving motorcycles often occur the profile of the motorcycle community from simply at intersections involving an oncoming vehicle. In rural driving in and between the cities all the way to racing areas there are more single-vehicle accidents where and off-road riding. motorcyclists lose control and run off the road due to Most important, however, is their excellent and on- higher speeds. going work to promote safety. I hope all members of this When driving we must be extra cautious of our sur- assembly will join me in thanking the BCCOM for the roundings, especially when turning at intersections. great work they do for motorcycle enthusiasts and their Always be alert to see if there are motorcycles in traffic. families in British Columbia. Keep in mind that motorcycles are smaller than cars and trucks and more difficult to see. We must be extremely FIRST NATIONS TREATY CELEBRATIONS vigilant at this time of the year when motorcyclists are IN KYUQUOT starting to join us on roads and highways. We need to put ourselves in the same mindset as, when C. Trevena: On a wet spring night several hundred our students go back to school in September, we retrain people sat in a school gym at Kyuquot watching the ourselves to slow down in school zones. Motorcyclists clock until midnight. The day had been spent with dan- and their associations are reminding themselves to re- cing, the sharing of family songs, speeches, gift-giving member to abide by the posted speed limits, as they and feasts. know that unsafe speed puts you at a greater risk. At midnight on March 31 going into April 1, silence Slow down and watch other traffic in intersections. descended. Babies were hushed, and children and their Be sure that traffic sees you. Do not drive in their blind parents, aunties and elders watched as hereditary chiefs spots. Wear bright clothing and reflective material and and elected councillors of the Ka:'yu:'k't'h'-Che:k:tles7et'h' keep your headlights on at all times. First Nation signed their first piece of legislation, which Please join with me to thank the B.C. Coalition of took them from subjects under the Indian Act to people Motorcyclists for organizing the MLA Ride to kick off with the ability for self-determination. Motorcycle Awareness Month. It certainly will bring [1350] awareness to drivers to be extra careful of their sur- It was the effective date for their treaty. When asked roundings. It will save lives and reduce injuries to our by the elected chief councillor whether anyone wanted motorcyclists in British Columbia. to speak, one councillor simply said, "I'm free; I'm free." It was a refrain which echoed around the room and then, E. Foster: I rise today to discuss a very important through the coming days, through the community. matter, which has just been brought up. May is motor- The celebration moved outside, fireworks were set off, cycle safety month in British Columbia. As a longtime and as people left the hall, they were given a page from motorcycle owner and operator, I certainly applaud the the Indian Act to add to the flames on the bonfire. A initiatives of the B.C. Coalition of Motorcyclists. They few hours later the waters of Kyuquot Sound and 70- do a tremendous job in bringing awareness to the gen- plus kilometres of the logging road to Highway 19 were eral public regarding motorcycle safety. busy as the community moved almost en masse to Port Motorcycles are growing in popularity around the Alberni, where there was a celebration for all five Maa- world but perhaps especially so in B.C. According to nulth Nations to mark their treaty's effective date. 6684 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

It had been a long time coming. Years of negotiations The centre is an innovative and shining civic cen- resulting in 2007 with Bill 45 before this House, where tre that brings together our community's residents for we agreed to their treaty. Most here will remember the a range of valued activities and services. This unique historic occasion when the chiefs of the Maa-nulth mixed-use project, completed by the city of Vancouver, Nations addressed this Legislature. There were cele- combines several community facilities with market brations in the community too — which, as the now rental housing in a tower above. The centre opened to Minister of Health will attest to, were joyous and mov- the public in December of 2009 and replaced the old ing. But none of us who were at the school gym in centre on West 16th Avenue. Kyuquot will forget the power and emotion of a people I was pleased to attend the official opening ceremony who are now free. about a year ago and since then have been bringing my The Ka:'yu:'k't'h'-Che:k:tles7et'h' know they still have children there to enjoy the centre. a long way to go, but the dynamic is now different. Several important community services and activities They're working for their own future, their own way. It are together under one roof at the landmark site of 1 is a journey, they're all in the canoe, and they are pad- Kingsway, including a multipurpose community centre, dling together. a branch of Vancouver's public library, a fitness centre and a state-of-the-art daycare centre. The commun- ASIAN-CANADIAN HERITAGE ity centre features a gym, climbing wall, dance studio, multipurpose rooms and rooftop outdoor community R. Lee: Back in 2001, a Senate motion officially desig- space. The second-floor daycare has access to secure nated May as Asian Heritage Month across the country. outdoor play space with wonderful views. Asian Heritage Month is a time to celebrate the long and [1355] rich history of Asian-Canadian communities and the During its first full year of operation, there were over contributions that members of these communities have one million visits to the centre. The community centre made to British Columbia and to Canada. opened and reportedly had 525,000 users, double the Our province is home to hundreds of thousands of number of the users at the previous centre. Asian Canadians who trace their origins back to coun- The fitness centre is active and well-used throughout tries from the Black Sea all the way to the shores of the the day, drawing attendance of over 126,000 people in Pacific Ocean. The cultural backgrounds of these cit- one year. The daycare has been at capacity since it opened izens are diverse and rich. The traditions and festivals on its first day of operation. The library has seen an aver- that they have brought with them have enriched cities age of 1,500 patrons per day, which is nearly double the and towns throughout B.C. As Parliamentary Secretary number of patrons at the library's previous location. for Multiculturalism and as someone who immigrated I invite all members of the House to join me in con- to this great country, I feel it's important for us to cele- gratulating the Mount Pleasant Community Centre on brate this. its first anniversary and wishing the board and staff con- It's also important to reflect on the tremendous eco- tinuing success in the future. nomic advantages we derive from multiculturalism. The connections and cultural understanding that so many MENTAL HEALTH AND of our citizens possess are extraordinary advantages for WORK OF NANCY HALL B.C. as we compete in the global marketplace. This is an- other reason to celebrate. M. MacDiarmid: Hon. Speaker, May 1 to 7 is Mental Mr. Speaker, every year in Metro Vancouver the ex- Health Week in Canada. This year is the 60th anniver- plorAsian Festival celebrates Asian Heritage Month sary of Mental Health Week. This week is a time for all with events for everyone. Presented by the Vancouver of us to learn, talk, reflect and engage with each other on Asian Heritage Month Society, the theme is "Many cul- the many issues relating to mental health. tures, many languages, one celebration." This is not only We've made some great strides in the past decades, yet a great description of the diversity of Asian commun- there is still a lack of understanding of mental health, ities in British Columbia. This is also a great description and for some, there is a stigma attached to having a of British Columbia itself — a place that truly celebrates mental health problem. We need greater understand- diversity. ing and acceptance, and we can all play a role in that. Any one of us or a family member could be affected by a MOUNT PLEASANT COMMUNITY CENTRE problem with mental health. One in five Canadians will have such a problem in their lifetime, and the impact J. Kwan: I would like to take this opportunity to can be profound. celebrate the first anniversary of the official opening Today I want to honour a dear friend and one of my of the new Mount Pleasant Community Centre in my constituents who was an untiring and devoted advocate constituency. for people with mental illness. Dr. Nancy Hall died in Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6685

March of this year. She has left a great legacy and is a were going to have a $2.3 million campaign to promote stellar example of how one person can make a difference. the Nisga'a agreement and actually spent $7.8 million. She's greatly missed. That's what he did when he was the architect of one of Nancy had a wonderful spirit, sense of optimism and the worst governments in the history of the province of incredible drive. She connected people in a marvel- British Columbia. lous way and worked tirelessly for what she believed in. [1400] Always generous with her time and her knowledge, one of her great gifts to me was to help me better under- Interjections. stand mental health problems and what they can mean to people and families who are affected. Mr. Speaker: Members. She was filled with humanity and compassion. She The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. had two beautiful children who lit up her life. She was a loving mother, daughter, sister, aunt and friend, and the A. Dix: Well, it's surprising to me that the Minister of celebration of her life was truly a joyous occasion. Finance would intentionally bring up one of the most In 2010 Nancy was honoured by the Canadian shameful moments in the history of the Liberal Party — Mental Health Association when she received their their lawsuit against the Nisga'a people, where the B.C. highest award, the C.M. Hincks Award. Nancy was a Liberal government decided that the B.C. Liberal Party spectacular person who made this world a better place. wouldn't have to pay their costs. It's shameful. Her hope and love for family and friends, her optimism Now, my question to them is this. The wizard of the and her life that demonstrates how one person can accounts over there can surely tell us, since the report make a tremendous difference — these are some of the has rendered his assumptions about the HST inaccur- gifts she's left us as a legacy. It was a joy and a privilege ate…. That's what the report did yesterday. They said to have known her. that all the things that he's been using public funds to I ask the House to join me in celebrating and acknow- tell the public about the HST are essentially wrong — a ledging the life and contributions of Dr. Nancy Hall. $1.3 billion tax increase on families. Surely he can tell us how much it's going to cost. Surely he doesn't spend Oral Questions money first and budget later.

COST OF GOVERNMENT INFORMATION Hon. K. Falcon: I've told the member opposite, on ON HARMONIZED SALES TAX numerous occasions now, that that's exactly what I'm going to do, and the moment I know that, I'm going to A. Dix: My question is to the Minister of Finance, and let the member know. that question is about the initiative, the HST, the tax But I'll also say this. Last night one of the things we formally known by the B.C. Liberals as the single most were doing was engaging in a listening exercise with important thing we can do for the B.C. economy, now British Columbians to see how we might improve the exposed as a $1.3 billion tax increase on B.C. families. HST, to see how we might reduce or even eliminate Now, the minister has had a week. Perhaps he can tell some of that impact on families. In fact, last night, my- us how much public funds…. It's bad enough that fam- self and the Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation ilies have to pay this thing. Can the minister tell us how and the Minister of Transportation collectively held much they have to pay for him to provide misleading telephone town hall meetings with over 78,000 British information about the HST? Columbians who participated. What that tells me is that actually British Columbians Hon. K. Falcon: I told the Leader of the Opposition are very much engaged in wanting information and that as soon as I get that number, I'm going to present it wanting to talk and listen to their ministers and to pro- publicly and make sure that everyone in this House and vide input on how we can improve the HST. That's exactly outside knows exactly what that number will be. But I'll what we are going to do on this side of the House. tell you what we won't do. I will tell you what we will not do. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a fur- ther supplemental. Interjections. A. Dix: The minister is phoning up the public on their Mr. Speaker: Members. dime. He's not paying for it. The B.C. Liberal Party isn't paying for it. He's phoning up on their dime to give them Hon. K. Falcon: We will not do what the Leader of misleading information about the HST. That's what's go- the Opposition did when he was chief of staff under the ing on here — a $1.3 billion tax increase on families, his government. He went out and said that they previous assumption… 6686 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Interjections. the B.C. Liberals in 2011, that same senior is earning $30,000: $2,417. For a family of four earning $30,000, all Mr. Speaker: Members. taxes in, under the NDP and under the B.C. Liberals, a 44 percent reduction in overall taxes. And that was the A. Dix: …a burning pyre on the ground. That's what's architect of the worst government in the history of the happened here. The people of B.C. know. To put it in province of British Columbia. hockey terms, he's on the side of the owners, and we're on the side of the fans with respect to the HST. IMPACT OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX Surely there was a budget. There was a budget when ON FAMILIES the government…. I mean, B.C. families…. S. Chandra Herbert: The HST report released yes- Interjections. terday claims the average family will pay $350 more under the HST, and that number was spread far and Mr. Speaker: Members. wide in the media. But as with everything with the B.C. Member, just…. Liberals, you have to read the fine print. It turns out, down at the bottom of the report, that it says a family Interjections. could be defined as one person — a family of one per- son paying, on average, $350. Mr. Speaker: Members. My question is to the Finance Minister. Isn't the report Continue, Member. really saying that the average cost is $350 per person? So an average family of four could be paying $1,400. A. Dix: Hon. Speaker, a 50 percent increase in hydro rates, three consecutive increases in MSP premiums on Hon. K. Falcon: I'll try and make this simple for families, massive increases on ferry fares, vulnerable the member. That is an average. That means it will be seniors paying more in long-term-care fees and now a less for those that have lower incomes; it will be more $1.3 billion tax increase on B.C. families. Families first? for those that have higher incomes. News flash for the They call this families first? Why don't you tell B.C. fam- NDP: if you earn more money, you're probably pay- ilies how much they're paying for your propaganda ing more HST. I thought that's what the NDP always campaign on the HST? cared about — that the rich people should pay more. They do under a consumption tax.I t was pointed out in Hon. K. Falcon: Well, isn't this rich. The architect of that same report that 40 percent of the HST is paid by the worst government in B.C. history, that had the highest people earning over $100,000 a year. tax rates in North America, trying to pretend he's on the But I'll tell you that what I'm really interested in is side of families. Well, that is really rich. So let me just…. the other part of the independent panel report that they haven't been talking about — that is, if we go back to Interjections. the Leader of the Opposition's choice, which is going back to the PST, that blows a hole of almost $3 billion Mr. Speaker: Just sit down for a second. over the next couple of years in the provincial budget. It's your time, Members. I'd like to know how they are going to square that with their promises to increase spending in every single Interjections. ministry of government, still balance the budget and do it with almost $3 billion less revenue. That's what I'd Mr. Speaker: Members. like to know from the NDP. Continue, Minister. [1405] Interjections.

Hon. K. Falcon: Boy, it is rich to listen to the Leader of Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat for a second, Member. the Opposition pretend he's on the side of families when There are other people that want to ask questions. it comes to tax burden. All the member has to do…. I Member, continue. know they never read budgets, but just go into the 2011 budget in appendix A3. It actually compares the total tax S. Chandra Herbert: Well, I can understand why burden. That includesH ST. It includes personal income the Finance Minister doesn't want to answer the ques- tax, child benefits, property taxes, consumption taxes — tion. Statistics Canada refuses to acknowledge a family all included. of one. Only the B.C. Liberals would say family first Here's what it was for a senior couple earning $30,000 was really me first. That's the B.C. Liberals' version of under the NDP in the 1990s: $3,391, all taxes in. Under family first. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6687

Again to the minister. It says at the bottom of the re- it's 24,000 or whether it's 113,000, but I do know one port, in fine print, a family can be defined as one person. thing. So basing that on that statement, is the real cost per per- I do know that under the NDP plan to go back to son $350, on average, as the report asserts? the PST, the only new jobs created will be the 300 tax [1410] auditors that the province has to hire to go after British Columbians, investigating PST audits. That's all that's Hon. K. Falcon: Another uncomfortable fact for the going to be happening under the NDP. NDP. Even with the introduction of the HST, as I men- We are about creating private sector jobs. They want 300 tioned, if you look at total tax burden, and I think it's civil servants hired, at a cost of over $30 million a year, to appropriate to do that — MSP premiums, property taxes, do the paperwork on PST so that we could reimpose $150 income taxes, HST, total tax burden on average families million in compliance costs on small business to do the in British Columbia — what you will find…. Don't take paperwork for the PST and the paperwork for the GST. my word for it. It's in the budget. They can go read it. That's the NDP approach. That's not our approach. They never do, but they should read the budget. You will find the second-lowest overall tax burden in the country Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. right here in British Columbia. Now let's be clear what the choice of the Leader of the J. Kwan: Maybe the minister would like to do this Opposition and the NDP is. They have what I call the math: 24,000 jobs over ten years, at the cost of $1.33 bil- tax trifecta. lion to the consumers per year. That's over $54,000 per (1) They want to go back to a PST, and they're going to job for the consumers per year. have to explain how they're going to do all their spend- [1415] ing with $2.7 billion less income. That will be fascinating Now, I like to see new jobs created in the economy. to watch. The problem is the minister doesn't know what he's (2) They want to raise small business taxes by 80 per- talking about. I don't trust him, and neither will British cent and general corporate taxes by 20 percent. Columbians, with these incorrect facts. (3) They want to reinstate the corporate capital tax, Will the minister at least do this? Will the minister cor- one of the worst job killers in the history of taxation. rect the misinformation on his own government website That's the NDP plan. That's a job killer. and tell British Columbians the truth for a change? We're about growing the economy, growing jobs, growing revenues and supporting social services. That's Hon. K. Falcon: It's a little tough to take job creation what we're doing on this side of the House. advice from a member who was part of a government that was an economic wrecking crew in the 1990s. I JOB CREATION PROJECTIONS mean, let's be clear. The Leader of the Opposition was FOR HARMONIZED SALES TAX the chief of staff who led a government that took B.C., for the first time in our history, to have-not-province J. Kwan: I'll tell the minister an uncomfortable fact. status — meaning we had to take money, transfer pay- That would be the Jack Mintz report. It turns out the ments, from other provinces because our economy was government's own HST guru, Jack Mintz, is wrong. He's doing so badly. I am not going to take any economic ad- not just a little bit off of his job projections; he is off by vice from those folks across the aisle. 88,000 jobs. And the Liberal cabinet ministers and back- What I will do is celebrate a tax change that will gen- bench MLAs have been misleading British Columbians erate tens of thousands of new jobs in British Columbia, with their misinformation from the Jack Mintz report. that brings hope to families, that grows our economies, That would be another uncomfortable fact. that grows revenues to support important social services Even today, though, it doesn't stop there. It doesn't like health care, like education, like all the things those stop there, because even today in the government's own members opposite purport to care about. supposedly impartial and factual websites, those web- sites still provide for those misleading figures. Why is the Interjections. minister still continuing to mislead British Columbians about those figures? Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. K. Falcon: So you've got one highly respected SHELLFISH AQUACULTURE AND independent economist, Jack Mintz, that's talking ENVIRONMENTAL REVIEW about the potential for 113,000 jobs to be created. We have a second independent panel report that comes C. Trevena: My question is to the Minister of out and suggests that there could be over 24,000 new Agriculture. His primary role in shellfish aquaculture jobs created. But I will say this. I don't know whether is assistance in marketing B.C. shellfish products. I'd 6688 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

like to know whether the minister agrees that a healthy panel, and we're going to make sure that we don't play shellfish aquaculture industry requires a rigorous en- politics. vironmental review. If it goes forward for the coal mine, it is something that the applicant can do as they go through the process. Hon. D. McRae: I'd like to thank the member opposite But no, not for one second do I want to see the shell- for giving me the first opportunity to stand and respond fish industry in this province prejudiced by actions like to a question in these very distinguished chambers. you're implying. I'm incredibly proud of this province's environmental standards that we've put forward in the last ten years. S. Fraser: And I'm the MLA bounding the southern It is so refreshing to have a province that respects the edge of your riding, hon. Minister. environment, does the best to make sure we encourage The livelihood of hundreds of families in the shell- economic growth at the same time. It is the complete fish industry in Baynes Sound is at risk. I would think opposite of what the members opposite did during their that the minister would want the most rigorous stan- ten years in office. dards of environmental protection put in place because of that. Interjections. All local governments within his riding are demand- ing an independent expert review panel with public Mr. Speaker: Take your seat. hearings. Any heavy metals released from the proposed Members. coal mine would kill all shellfish export from Baynes The member has a supplemental. Sound, would kill the industry in Baynes Sound. Why has he ignored his mandate as minister responsible to IMPACT OF PROPOSED VANCOUVER ISLAND market shellfish? COAL MINE ON SHELLFISH INDUSTRY Hon. D. McRae: It's funny. As an MLA, the B.C. C. Trevena: Having given the minister an opportun- Shellfish Association, which actually is based in my rid- ity to have his first question,I 'd hoped that he'd give the ing, didn't come to see me. However, when I became the House his first answer too. Minister of Agriculture, I was proactive, and I decided I was asking the Minister of Agriculture about en- that — you know what? — since they're not coming to vironmental standards on shellfish aquaculture because me, I'm going to them to hear their concerns. I made an there's a proposed coal mine in the minister's own rid- appointment, I saw their executive director, I've heard ing five kilometres from the richest and most prolific their concerns, and I am listening. shellfish beds in B.C., in Baynes Sound. There are legit- imate concerns about the impact of heavy metals from Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. the mine leaching into those beds. As MLA, he has ignored the issue, and it's now his min- S. Fraser: I'm sure they were very happy with the isterial responsibility. So will he continue to dismiss the outcome of that meeting. I have attended five standing- demands of the residents of the Comox Valley, who want room-only public meetings in this minister's riding, and a full, independent and rigorous environmental review? he was absent at every one of them, even with…. He's [1420] been ducking this issue as MLA; now he's ducking it as a minister. Hon. D. McRae: It is nice to know that the member We're talking about the richest shellfish beds inB ritish opposite, who is my constituency neighbour, is basic- Columbia, and we're apparently talking about a B.C. ally acknowledging the good repartee we have going Liberal government that has no interest in protecting here today. them, to say nothing of the hundreds of jobs that sup- First of all, you're right. Baynes Sound is one of the most port the families in his constituency. important aquaculture places, not just in British Columbia Now, will the minister commit today to ensure that a but in this nation — hands down. With $24 million go- significant industrial project that could have grave im- ing out of the Baynes Sound into the economy of British pacts will not go ahead without a full public hearing and Columbia, it is something that we are desperate to protect a rigorous, independent, expert review panel? in this province, and I'm committed to doing that. I'm not about to play politics with the environment. Hon. D. McRae: I'm sure the member opposite well Right now, that project is at the pre–environmental knows that we're in the pre-consultation period for assessment phase. It isn't even, I'm sure the member the environmental assessment. You know, I feel like knows, within my ministry at this stage. At this stage I'm sitting up here answering a question which the I'm not going to prejudge what's going to come out of members opposite obviously know is not to do with that. It is before the environmental assessment review my ministry. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6689

However, don't think for one second that I don't have Interjections. the belief that the agriculture industry in my region, as in all parts of British Columbia, is hugely import- Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. ant. This is an industry which is sustainable, provides Continue, Minister. jobs — tens of millions of dollars for families across this province. Hon. S. Cadieux: Our professional public servants in We will protect this resource with the highest government communications and public engagement environmental standards possible. It is absolutely es- are responsible for ensuring that British Columbians re- sential. These are sustainable jobs that will last for ceive accurate information about these announcements, generations, and I am committed to protecting those and they're going to continue to do so. jobs and that industry for as long as I'm around — and my children. GOVERNMENT POSITION ON [1425] SUPERVISED INJECTION SITE

PREMIER'S ANNOUNCEMENTS M. Farnworth: The previous Minister of Health was DURING BY-ELECTION CAMPAIGN very supportive of Insite in Vancouver. After the recent federal election, statements by the…. D. Routley: Candidate Clark in a by-election in Vancouver–Point Grey has made a number of announce- Interjections. ments in that constituency. Yesterday in estimates for the Ministry of Citizens' Services, it became clear that M. Farnworth: There have been a lot of you. But for public servants were used in the planning and imple- once, despite there being a lot, they did have a common mentation of those events. This candidate also happens position: that Insite is an important part of health care to be the B.C. Liberal leader. delivery in the province of British Columbia. My question is for the Minister of Labour, Citizens' The day after the election in which the Conservatives Services and Open Government. Did she or any other achieved a majority, the statements from senior B.C. minister seek advice from Elections B.C. as to whether MPs were that the federal government is going to take those government resources should be costed as part of a long, hard look at Insite to see whether it's in the best her election campaign? interests of the community. My question to the Minister of Health is this: (1) is Hon. S. Cadieux: Well, the Premier, as she should, Insite still part of the government's health strategy, and is fulfilling her obligations as the Premier and making (2) what specific steps is the government taking to in- announcements that benefit all of British Columbia, form the federal government that Insite is a key part of including things like raising the minimum wage, elim- health delivery and strategy in dealing with addictions inating parking fees in parks and support for Ronald in the province of British Columbia? McDonald House. These are fabulous things for the people of British Columbia. Government is making Hon. M. de Jong: Thank you to the hon. member great announcements, and of course the Premier of the for the question. I can assure him and members of the province is making those announcements. House and British Columbians that the position of the government of British Columbia has not changed inso- Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. far as discussions that may occur and will occur with the federal government. D. Routley: These announcements are occurring I suspect that I will at least await the appointment of in a riding, in a constituency, where she is a can- a federal Minister of Health, and those discussions will didate in a by-election. Given the serious ongoing commence. But he can be assured that the position of concerns regarding a previous B.C. Liberal campaign in this government has not changed. Vancouver-Fraserview, I would think an abundance of [1430] caution would be in order for this government. To the Minister of Citizens' Services: if advice was [End of question period.] not sought from Elections B.C. on whether government resources should be used in the Premier's by-election Tabling Documents campaign in Vancouver–Point Grey, why not? Hon. S. Cadieux: Hon. Members, I have the honour Hon. S. Cadieux: The Premier is making announce- to table the annual report… ments on behalf of government, as she should. She is the leader of this province. Interjections. 6690 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Mr. Speaker: Members. It has been early days in my entry into this position. I have been following along the issue of the E&N Railway, Hon. S. Cadieux: …of WorkSafe B.C. and I have met with Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure, who is lead on this particular file.I think Orders of the Day a properly run railway corridor can add to tourism val- ues, whether it's here on Vancouver Island or in other Hon. R. Coleman: In this House, in the Legislative parts of British Columbia as well. Assembly, we will continue with the estimates of the Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation, and in Com- D. Routley: The railway is a spectacular piece of B.C. mittee A we will continue the estimates of the Minister history. It is the railway that was never new. Dunsmuir of Agriculture. built it to service the coal mines. The bridge overN iagara Canyon here in Goldstream was recycled from Cisco in Committee of Supply the Fraser Canyon where the two railways crossed, when traffic became too heavy there. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF It was the first place on the CPR where diesel loco- JOBS, TOURISM AND INNOVATION motives were used and also the last place where steam (continued) locomotives were used. It has a long and proud history, and it is essential to our tourism industry. The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); L. When I ride it, I meet people from all over the world Reid in the chair. on that railway, so I think it's essential that it be restored. Now that it is owned by the Island Corridor Foundation The committee met at 2:34 p.m. — which is a coalition of Island communities, First Nations — it is really important to those of us on the On Vote 33: ministry operations, $236,513,000 (con- Island that it be restored. tinued). I would ask the minister one more time if he would actively join as a petitioner and add his weight to the D. Routley: Before we ended this debate for our effort to lobby all levels of government to bring the ne- lunch break and for question period, I asked the minis- cessary funding to restore the passenger rail service. It ter a question about the E&N Railway and the fact that is not an extraordinary amount of money. It's estimated the roadbed and track has come to such poor condition to be between $15 million and $20 million to restore the that passenger services have been suspended. I asked trackage. If that is accomplished, we will have the op- him if he thought it was a wise use of the Islands Trust portunity for commuter rail as well as servicing more money to upgrade stations and other accessories and options, such as along the lines of what the minister has adornments along the rail line without addressing the described. It would service tourism more. core fundamental health of its capacity to move passen- gers — its safety. Hon. P. Bell: Just before I try to respond to the question, [1435] I should reintroduce my staff.T o my immediate left is my I realize that the minister needs to be acquainted deputy minister, Dana Hayden. To my immediate right with the history of the railway and the current hist- is acting Assistant Deputy Minister Gordon Borgstrom, ory of the management of the railway to really give a and to his right is Exec Director Greg Goodwin. wholesome answer. But I would ask him that passen- Again, to answer the question, first of all, I do believe ger service on Vancouver Island provided by the E&N that rail tourism is an opportunity and something we need Railway — whether he perceives that as a high value in to build on. I've seen success stories. I've also seen failures, terms of marketing tourism and whether he would be frankly, on rail tourism that have been unsuccessful for a prepared to join the advocacy that is seeking funding lack of capital and a lack of quality of product. from all levels of government to repair the railway and It's pretty clear to me that kind of a commuter low- restore passenger rail service. end rail service is not something that will be successful and attract tourists to it, but a properly developed busi- Hon. P. Bell: Thanks to the member opposite for ness plan around a rail system that is attractive certainly the question. There are some tremendous success has lots of potential. stories around railway tourism here, particularly in The member describes some historical references with British Columbia. The Rocky Mountaineer has been regards to the E&N Railway. I think those are some of an incredible success. But that is based on a specific the good reasons why one should contemplate a detailed product, a specific quality of product, and the need to economic strategy around how a high-end tourism- make sure that it can be provided consistently to the related product can be built. I don't actually think that's consumer. what is currently envisaged by the proponents. I am only Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6691

basing that on media reports, not on any information The Trans Canada Trail is an integral part of our out- that I have beyond that. door tourism option that we offer to people. So I would Perhaps in the coming weeks the member opposite ask the minister what programs are being offered to de- and I can find some time for coffee, and he can fill me in velop and support the trail infrastructure on the Island. a bit more. Obviously, he has a very good understand- ing of the E&N rail lands, and if there's something I can Hon. P. Bell: The specific operational issues as it -re do to help support a business strategy that would lead to lates to trails and trail management lay with the Minister a high-end, good-quality tourism product, I'd certainly of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations. But entertain that. I will tell the member opposite, as I've stated previously [1440] in the House, that we're currently looking at the tour- ism product that we offer here in British Columbia to D. Routley: I certainly welcome that invitation. try and better understand what makes us unique, what Some of the plans that are underway regarding the makes us different and what the major international E&N were things like to offer steam excursion and din- selling features would be. ner trips that are along the lines of what the minister has Pretty clearly, beautiful B.C. and the wilderness that described in conjunction with the B.C. Forest Discovery we have is one of the key elements of that, but we want to Centre perhaps, which operates steam trains on its make sure that we build a better package, working with property. They have been asked informally by theI sland industry and creating specific interests. Corridor Foundation whether they would be willing to I think trails, back-country tourism and some of the participate in that sort of engagement. I look forward to associated features will probably be one of the areas that being able to speak to the minister about that. is very important from a B.C. tourism perspective, but it Another concern regarding tourism that has a trans- is still in the early days of my responsibility for this port- portation component to it in our island communities folio. So we are doing that analysis right now. is the issue of the small ferry runs. I realize that is not For this summer it'll be status quo. The level of ac- directly related to this minister's portfolio, but my tivity on our trail systems, the systems that we operate constituency has the most ferry terminals of any ferry them under in terms of Ministry of Forests, Lands and constituency. Most of them service our small islands, Natural Resource Operations, will continue. But we cer- and those islands are heavily dependent on the ability or tainly are contemplating this as one of the opportunity the attractiveness of that transportation option in order areas. As we move forward over the coming months, I'll to develop their tourism businesses. be happy to keep the member opposite informed. Many of my constituents who operate small busi- [1445] nesses on the small Gulf Islands are suffering because of the increased ferry fares. Has the minister considered any S. Fraser: Hello to the minister and your staff. I'll try options that his ministry could assist in addressing some to be very brief here. I've got two issues, both dealing of those obstacles to developing tourism businesses? with trusts — sort of different issues, though. The first one. The SkeetchestnI ndian band has a signifi- Hon. P. Bell: This question was canvassed by an ear- cant problem. Their location, their traditional territory, lier member, but I'll just try and repeat my answer. I is within the boundaries of the Northern Development understand there is great concern amongst island busi- Initiative Trust. However, they could arguably be within nesses as well as residents on some of the smaller islands, the Southern Interior Development Initiative Trust. But as well as some of the major routes, about ferry fares. they seem to be in neither. I can, I believe, confirm for the member opposite The issue has been brought up apparently previously that the Minister of Transportation has been engaged by the band. They seem to be caught in the middle of with the ferries commissioner in talking to the ferries an interjurisdictional problem. It could be very awk- commissioner about the costs associated and if there ward if their traditional territory that's in the Northern are ways to mitigate increasing costs over time. More Trust boundaries is not recognized as such. That severely detailed responses would be better pursued with the hinders their chances for economic development, and Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure. But cer- indeed it appears to already. tainly I've met with the minister, and we've discussed They did put in an application a couple of years ago the situation, and he knows my concerns. now on a value-added incubator. As the minister notes from his previous portfolio, small scale for basic lumber D. Routley: Thank you, Minister. It's funny that on production is very important in the region for the band. Vancouver Island, most of our tourism alternatives in- They were turned down, it looks like at least in part, be- volve some form of transportation. There's the railway, cause of this interjurisdictional boundary problem. and there's the Island Highway. There are the ferry op- I'm just wondering if the minister has any solutions or if tions, but there's also an extensive network of trails. he'd be willing to look into this on behalf of the band. 6692 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Hon. P. Bell: I don't have any information on that what appear to be some pretty significant inconsisten- specific issue, but I'd be happy to look into it and report cies in how the trusts are adjudicated, how the money back to the member opposite. is doled out. [1450] S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. The second and final issue is…. It's dealing with, I Hon. P. Bell: Thanks to the member for his question. guess, it could be all the trusts, but specifically theI sland The purpose of the commitment made by the Premier Coastal Economic Trust. I'm just curious. The new really is to try and have another look at issues like that Premier has stated that she's looking to review these and find out if the current model of the trusts is meeting trusts — how they they're run, how they're organized, the test of helping support community economic de- what their criteria are. I'm curious as to what that will velopment and whether good decisions are being made cover. or not. I'll get to a specific issue thatI found of great concern. As the member opposite knows, there are a num- There was an initiative in that was being ber of different trusts around the province. Each is proposed, and they applied to the trust. I'm on the ad- operated completely at arm's length from government visory committee. As the minister knows, the MLAs are under a governance model that is prescribed. It's more all on the advisory committee. This was for the Pacific similar to an authority model where the positions on Coast University for Workplace Health Sciences in Port the body continue to be renewed depending on the na- Alberni that was being proposed at the time. ture of positions held and that sort of thing — mayors, Port Alberni, as you know, has had significant eco- MLAs, but also other individuals that are appointed to nomic downturn — 5,000 people once not that long ago the board. in the forest industry down to less than 1,000 now. So Government, the minister, does not have any author- this economic diversification, a potential university — ity to overrule decisions by trusts, by the nature of the very exciting. It was one that was agreed to by all sides legislation under which they were founded. We will, as of the House, I am pleased to see, in a bipartisan, non- part of the work that we do, look at the nature of the partisan way a couple of years ago. trusts, the way they're established, the legislation, and So they went to the Island Trust for money. They put whether they are achieving the goals that they were set in a proposal. Significant work and resources were used out to achieve in the first place. We'll consult broadly on to do that. It was a unanimous decision by the advisory that — obviously, with members of the boards, which board to endorse this very enthusiastically. I've never would include opposition members, as well as the public seen that level of support before. The entire advisory and other key stakeholders in it. committee said yes and move it forward post-haste. Earlier on I stated that I've not yet taken terms of ref- It didn't get post-haste. It got mired for over a year. erence to cabinet. I need to do that prior to being able The proponent actually ended up spending a quarter of to disclose any information on the exact nature of the a million dollars trying to meet a never-ending moving reviews. But my hope is to have the review completed set of goalposts, and eventually it failed. We can argue by the end of the calendar year. ThenI , of course, would about that, whether that was good or not, but the pro- make that review public at that time or at the time that ponent lost a significant amount of resources as opposed it was completed. to gaining it. I think the point that the member makes is a good It was contrary to the net economic contribution that one. I appreciate it. I think that's exactly the type of the trust has mandated to do. But it gets worse. The decision that we'll be looking at and trying to better building was…. Part of the funding was coming from understand. If the decision was not made in a way that federal money. The most stringent criteria for applica- perhaps reflected the spirit of the original intent, if there tion acceptance under the KIP proposal federally…. are changes necessary, we'd certainly be willing to pur- They accepted this one. The university is now at the sue those changes. point where it's just about up and running. The building is in place. It's a wonderful thing. S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that.I appreciate The economic development that will flow from that — that, and I appreciate the fact that he's answering these not as much as if they had got the support of the Island questions so forthrightly and quickly with the time Trust, as we thought would happen — would fit into that we have — it's very limited — and considering he's every criteria that the Island Trust had. It was supported brand-new in this position. Thank you for that. by the mayor and the regional district and everything To finish this off, then, I just wanted to make a com- else, but it failed. ment. I hope that we will have the ability to be able to Is there any ability to scrutinize and review this review some of these things. I mean, the actual work that from the minister's level when something goes wrong? was done by the staff of the trust to analyze and review this There doesn't seem to be a methodology to address project showed a very, very strong economic benefit. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6693

As we know, universities like UNBC, University of elected officials of the province or with members of the Vancouver Island — these institutions actually provide public and the media." huge economic benefit and the potential for diversifi- It's clear to me that the province is also very much cation of economies in communities like Port Alberni, involved with the organization of gateway, and there which is so important. is a close association with the province and of course I would hope that we have an ability to have some the gateway committee, including the consortium that oversight, that indeed the terms of reference that a net is pushing hard for the foreign trade zone made up of economic benefit will accrue, as opposed to…. In this these members. case it was an economic loss not just to the university Again, is the minister suggesting that there is a de- but to the community of Port Alberni and, I would sub- fined independence from this company with that of the mit, to the province and to the world. Sixteen nations in operation of putting forward a foreign trade zone? the world have actually adopted the platform and the programs of this university. So it's a shame that our own Hon. P. Bell: I'll repeat my previous answer. To the best trust was the only one that didn't seem to deem it neces- of my knowledge, InterVISTAS has no ownership relation- sary to support it. ship with anyone within the foreign trade zone committee or the provincial government. It is an independent entity G. Gentner: Yesterday during estimates I learned that provides services on a contract basis, and while it has from the minister that InterVISTAS was a successful worked for government and for others from time to time, bidder of an RFP for conducting a study of proposed I don't think that in any way it creates a connection be- foreign trade zones for British Columbia. Now, the RFP tween the province and InterVISTAS. clearly states that the feasibility study would be con- ducted by "an independent consultant." So I asked the B. Simpson: I want to make a quick opening com- minister if it was affiliated with the group lobbying hard ment. We're going to be talking about FII later on, but for the foreign trade zone — the this is my first opportunity to make a public statement Gateway Council. The minister responded that they to the fact — because the minister has raised it a num- were "independent of that group." ber of times…. But the company has worked for the Greater Van- I wanted to give kudos to the minister for his leadership couver Gateway Council, amongst other entities related on the China file. I have mills operating in my constitu- to the port development — B.C. Ferries, B.C. Rail and, ency that are operating because of that shift to China. not surprisingly, another independent corporation, Now having said that, we will talk about what needs to Omnitrax. be done in that China strategy, but I did feel compelled to [1455] make that statement. I have a lot of people in my riding The company has stated that it was "retained to de- who are currently working because political leadership velop a new vision for the greater Vancouver gateway." was shown, and we have a bigger presence in China than So why would the minister say that InterVISTAS was we ever had. My respects to the minister for that. an independent consultant when it has already been en- I want to just canvass very quickly — because we gaged with studies for the Greater Vancouver Gateway are time-sensitive, as we always are in estimates — the Council and other entities of the province? softwood lumber agreement and some questions for clarification, based on some folks that I've been deal- Hon. P. Bell: My understanding is that the owner- ing with. ship of InterVISTAS is independent and distinct from First off, we're at a phase where the options — option the foreign trade zone steering committee members. A, option B — I believe, are available to be adjusted or That's the advice I've been provided, and I believe that changed at the request of British Columbia, and I be- to be the case. While they may have provided services to lieve that some folks down in the southeast at one point individual members, I don't think in any way that con- were asking for a change of options. If the minister could nects InterVISTAS to the company. It is only logical that clarify whether that discussion is happening. a company with that sort of information would provide [1500] services to a variety of groups and individuals. Hon. P. Bell: Thanks to the member opposite for his G. Gentner: Well, in the RFP it clearly states that very kind words. the successful bidder will not be a company that would The deadline for the decision point of changing from be involved in any association or previously of that of option A to option B or staying with option A has ex- lobbying. It's quite clear. It says here: "The proponents pired. We did consult extensively with the industry. must not attempt to communicate directly or indirectly There are always different views, but the overwhelming with any employee, contractor or representative of the sense amongst licensees was that option A was serving province, including the evaluation committee and any us well and to continue with that option. 6694 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

B. Simpson: The next question has to do with the actually at the table. But the technical discussion takes status of negotiations. As we all know, it takes a while to place, as I'm sure the member is aware, between the two figure out where we're going to go. The softwood lumber federal governments. agreement does have an expiry in the out-years, but are We have encouraged the federal government, and the there negotiations just now underway with the United federal government has made attempts to raise these States around renewing the softwood lumber agreement issues with the American government. The American or doing something different? government has been unwilling to pursue discussions around some of the things that the member has men- Hon. P. Bell: There are no active negotiations at this tioned to this point in time. However, in a renewal point with the U.S. government or with industry in the period of the nature that the member is contemplating, U.S. on the renewal process. However, we have started certainly that creates some levers. If the U.S. is interested consultations with industry as well as with the federal in pursuing an extension, there may be an opportunity government. As we complete that work over the next to talk about some of those additional items that are im- number of months, we'll then be taking that advice portant to his constituents, to my constituents and to all and contemplating what we should do going forward. British Columbians. Whether we should request the extension of two years with no changes, whether we should look to have some B. Simpson: Thanks for the minister's answer and the changes in the agreement or whether we should let the clarification. As the minister knows, if secondary manu- agreement expire would be the three options. facturers are associated in getting wood from tenured manufacturers, and so on, they did get lumped in. Some B. Simpson: The reason I raise the issue of where of them got lumped in, in a way that they didn't before, we're at with negotiations is that the minister will but the minister is apprised of that and knows that that's remember that many people characterized this as a pol- an issue that needs to be addressed. itical deal at the time. There was some fast-tracking that [1505] occurred. There were sectors of the forest industry that In particular, though, the private log issue on the coast believed they were shortchanged because of the nature is one that I think really did get lost last time and really of the fast-tracking and, in particular, some unfinished needs to be addressed. If we're going to be able to get lum- business that was supposed to have an ongoing dialogue ber manufacturing from those private logs on the coast, around the secondary manufacturers, non-tenured pro- we need to have a fair playing field with the Americans, ducers who got pulled into this deal and had to be part and I would hope that that would be one of them. of the tax regime. I had to chuckle as I recalled the debate around the Then of particular note in terms of log export debate, softwood lumber agreement as to whether B.C. was in terms of manufacturing on the coast, is the issue of driving the bus or was the big dog at the table or all of lumber or tariffable products produced from private logs. those things that the previous minister was using as lan- My question to the minister is: is there a sense that those guage as we did debates in the House. I understand it's particular issues…? People felt this deal unfairly treated a Canadian deal. certain sectors of the forest community. Are they going There is one thing that British Columbia has that to be part of the dialogue leading into the new deal? could avoid a future softwood lumber agreement, and that's the issue of tenure reform. I'm wondering. I know Hon. P. Bell: I just want to take a few seconds here. it's not within the minister's direct control, but because One of the items that the member opposite mentioned the minister has a softwood lumber agreement…. There was that non–tenure holders got dragged into the agree- was, when he was Minister of Forests, a paper circu- ment. In fact, non–tenure holders are exempt from lated within the ministry about tenure reform. I believe, border tax. They are entitled to ship into the U.S. with- and the minister knows this from previous debate, that out any form of border tax. There's a criteria around that tenure reform may be the way that we actually avoid a that must be met, of course, but that's the case. softwood lumber agreement or B.C. participating in a It's a bit of an awkward relationship in terms of how softwood lumber agreement in the future. this all unfolds. The federal government clearly has re- Could the minister state whether or not a serious look sponsibility and authority over international trade deals, at tenure reform is occurring, either as a result of trying so the U.S. federal government is technically only al- to avoid an SLA or within the ministry's and the minis- lowed to talk to the Canadian federal government. ter's area of responsibility? However, British Columbia represents about 60 percent of the industry, so we're the largest stakeholder, and the Hon. P. Bell: I may think about tenure reform in a federal government has been very good in working with slightly different way than the member opposite does. the provincial government, allowing us to participate A tenure reform is something that kind of rolls off the in that level of discussion and making sure that we're tongue very easily. But there are 85 members in this Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6695

House, and if we asked everyone to write down on a might as a result of China's presence, so I take that point. single piece of paper what they thought tenure reform But as the minister does know, tenure and putting a pub- meant, I suspect we'd get 75 different responses and ten lic resource in the hand of private companies and all of pieces of blank paper. It is a very complex issue. the associated benefits that that comes with — in terms We've gone through extensive tenure reform in terms of how we price timber, in terms of credits for silvicul- of the 20 percent takeback originally, which is now sold ture and roads and various other things — of course is competitively or provided to First Nations commun- the root of a big part of the U.S. challenge against our ity forests. We went from one community forest to 41 interference in the marketplace. community forests in the time since 2001, increased That's whatI mean by tenure reform. Often it's around the number of woodlots, and so on. Receiving licences I 50 percent or the 51 percent mark that has to be in a consider to be a form of tenure reform, commercial for- truly free log market, etc., and that's where the debate estry, so there was lots of work going on. comes. But I'll canvass the tenure part with the appro- I think what the member is probably more referring priate minister. to is perhaps another large-scale takeback, something of Having mentioned timber pricing, the minister is that nature, that creates a more competitive playing field. aware that there is an arbitration underway just now. But I'll leave that to him to describe. I found the arbitration claim from the Americans but I actually believe that the answer to the softwood lum- couldn't find Canada's response so that I understand ber deal with the U.S. is China. I think that as we grow the argument. I'm wondering if the minister is aware of the Chinese market…. when Canada will be making its response public. The growth rate has been tremendous — last year 2.9 billion board feet. I haven't seen March's numbers yet, but Hon. P. Bell: The response from the Canadian as of the end of February, we were at double the pace again government that, of course, we were involved in was for the first two months of the calendar year against the provided to the tribunal around mid-April. We don't previous year. That might lead one to believe that we'll see have the exact date with us here. But if it was not posted, something perhaps around five billion feet. That may be for some reason, on the Internet, we're happy to provide optimistic; I'm not sure. A couple of years ago when I set a the member opposite with a copy, because it is public goal of four billion board feet within two years, everyone documentation. So I'll endeavour through the miracles thought I was crazy. In fact, I'm sure we'll exceed the four of the legislative television network to have someone billion board foot mark — no question about that. somewhere magically produce a copy of that and pro- Given that we produce about 15, 16 billion board feet vide it to the member opposite. in a big year in British Columbia and have traditionally tried to sell ten, 11, perhaps 12 billion board feet into the B. Simpson: So my final question is on this.I may have U.S., as we displace that volume into the Chinese market just missed it on the Canadian website. I just couldn't — or perhaps Korea and India and others as well…. It find it. My final question on this. It's my understanding could be a variety of markets. As that volume is dis- the time frame will be the appointment of the panel. The placed, B.C. will be less reliant on the U.S. marketplace. panel is appointed out of the United Kingdom, but the While tenure reform could be part of the equation, hearings or whatever will be held here. That independ- I think there are other reasons to do tenure reform. ent panel is supposed to rule within 180 days, it's my Certainly when I was minister, I was pursuing a goal of understanding. incremental tenure reform as opposed to broad, sweep- My question, however, is because…. There's time ing reform. The current minister I can't speak for. I'm sensitivity associated with this. I have had individuals sure the member opposite will have an opportunity to approach me about concerns that — and this is a hypo- ask the Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource thetical — in the event that there is a ruling against us in Operations what his intent is. this case…. They're concerned that the incremental tax [1510] that Canada used in the Ontario and situation My belief is that the SLA will go away the day that we — across-the-board increment tax — to deal with the so- are no longer heavily reliant on the American market- called damages…. In British Columbia there are some place. My goal always was, and will continue to be, to companies that have actually not benefited from the prac- make that happen through the Asian marketplace. tice in question, and they're concerned about the process that will be used by British Columbia and Canada for de- B. Simpson: The minister's characterization of the termining what the actual punitive damages will be and tenure reform debate, I don't disagree with. I think he's what the government will do to address those. being kind with only ten blank sheets of paper if the So my question to the minister is: will there be an House was canvassed, but be that as it may. opportunity post–the arbitration ruling for a discus- We're already seeing China influencing price in the sion in British Columbia about the best way to address U.S. market. It's not bottoming out where it otherwise whatever that ruling is so that people who didn't bene- 6696 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

fit or participate in the practice are not punished by a us, so hopefully I'll be able to answer all the members' flat, across-the-board increase in the tax, as Quebec and questions. Ontario did? The actual cost of the construction of the facility was $3½ million. We still occupy that facility today. But Hon. P. Bell: In the current softwood lumber agree- we've had an extensive number of employees in China. ment and in the arbitration process there's no mechanism We continue to invest heavily in things like the Sichuan for a differential penalty to be applied. So if there was earthquake zone rehabilitation project and the like. I just to be any sort of a differential penalty applied, it would need a little clarity from the member opposite in terms have to be a negotiated agreement that all parties, in- of what she includes in the dream home project. cluding the Americans, would agree to. The actual physical construction of the dream home [1515] project was $3½ million, but I wouldn't want to sug- Just to be clear, in the actual construct of the agree- gest that…. We still occupy the building. It's our office ment as it stands today, there is no opportunity for a in Shanghai. We have about 40 or so staff, between the differential penalty. Canada Wood Group and FII China, in that particular facility. We use that as our primary facility to house the B. Simpson: I understand that. My question, though, office and market wood in China. to the minister was…. B.C. is particularly under the Just need a little more clarity in terms of the number gun on this particular claim. The concern is that British that the member opposite is looking for. Columbia needs to actually address the issue that the [1520] minister is speaking to, to determine whether or not there is a position to put forward to ask for some kind J. Kwan: Actually, I'm looking for pretty well all the of special circumstances. So the question actually is: will numbers — right? My next question was going to be the there be a process engaged in post…? breakdown of the project's budget. It includes, obviously, Hopefully, Canada wins, but failing Canada winning, the operating part of it in terms of the operating cost, in will British Columbia be able to actually take a very terms of the ongoing cost to finance this initiative. So reasoned look at some options and then make the deter- what was the startup, then? Is the startup that the min- mination whether they want to go and try and fight for ister is saying $3½ million — for the construction of some kind of differential penalty as opposed to across the dream home itself as a demonstration site, and then the board? afterwards the ongoing cost, and is that each year? It's not just the one-time cost; it's an ongoing cost as well. So Hon. P. Bell: We are convinced that we will win this it's a cumulative cost to the treasury. arbitration. So we certainly start from that premise and believe that to be the case. The legal advice that we have Hon. P. Bell: I think probably the best thing is that we are comfortable with and confident that, with our re- I'll arrange for a copy of the spreadsheet to be provided sponse to the initial filings, we should win the case. So to the member opposite, because there's a fair bit of de- I haven't presupposed what might happen in the event tail in terms of expenditures. This spreadsheet starts in that that's not the case at this point. 2008-09 and goes forward and assumes the '11-12 fiscal year. There are four years included, but of course, Dream J. Kwan: Seeing as we are sort of on the theme of Home was built a number of years prior to that. We'd wood, I'm going to carry on and ask the minister some have to go back and pull that data together. questions about the dream home initiative. This is the In a nutshell, provincial commitments in China, and Canada Dream Home initiative. this includes all of the associated costs from the prov- The last update that we got that was on the public rec- incial government, have ranged from $6.26 million in ord about the dream home initiative actually came from 2008-09. The low was actually in 2009-10 at $4.97 mil- the former Minister of Forests, who is now the Minister lion and then back up to $7.9 million, and $6.5 million of Health. At that time it was reported that the dream is assumed this year. On top of that there are industry home initiative…. The total cost of the exhibit was $12 contributions as well as the . million. The dream home initiative, I believe, is ongoing. What we've tried to do is offset the government of Although I'll have some further questions about it later, Canada contributions against provincial contributions. I'd like to see if I could get an update from the minister Although our funding dropped in '09-10, the federal gov- on the total cost of the dream home initiative to date that ernment contributed a greater amount to the Sichuan British Columbians had carried for this initiative. earthquake reconstruction projects, which are included in these budgets lines. Hon. P. Bell: Joining me to my immediate right is The average '08-09 was $8.8 million, and then we the CEO of the Forestry Innovative Investment, Ken bounced up to about $14 million this year. Because Baker. Ken has a plethora of spreadsheets available to we've completed the Sichuan earthquake reconstruction Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6697

projects, we're down to $10.7 million. That's total federal The initial project was our first foray into China. It government industry dollars, trade association dollars probably wasn't the best style of construction, but it al- as well as the provincial government. I'm happy to pro- lowed us to learn from the project. The real development vide a copy of this to the member opposite. in terms of the Chinese marketplace has come from those learnings. J. Kwan: I would be very interested in getting that, be- As we've pursued other opportunities — and I'll use cause I know that's getting into all the various details, wood roof trusses as an example around that — we en- and presumably the spreadsheet will provide for federal tered into some agreements where we would build two, breakout and then provincial breakout and then indus- three or four wood roof trusses for a developer on the try costs, etc. If I need to go back further, I'm sure that conditions that we were able to demonstrate afford- I can get that from the ministry's staff. He has many ability and also sustainability of the roofing system and spreadsheets. Weirdly enough, I like to look at them too. that the developer would then go ahead and build some Okay, that would be great if I could get that information other wood roofs on their own. from the minister, and thank you for that. Typically, that's been kind of in the neighbourhood I would like to get the minister's view on the Dream of three to six roofs that we would build. The developer Home initiative. With the completion of the earth- would build 100 to 150 roofs. That would be kind of nor- quake natural disaster that China had faced…. The mal. We have done other demonstration projects. In fact, cost, presumably, that the minister has just outlined we just completed a project where we built a three-storey is included in that. Beyond that, what was the project apartment building that had three apartments per floor able to generate for British Columbians? That is to say: in front of the Beijing conference center. That was the what other initiatives did China take up that they pay purpose of my most recent trip into China. for themselves, that utilize the Dream Home initiative For that particular project we provided the lumber, to do construction they required that was not paid for which was a little under $100,000 for the project, as by the taxpayers? well as some technical expertise, but the developer ac- tually paid for everything else in that building. The cost Hon. P. Bell: The DreamH ome China project was our of the building to the provincial government or to FII first foray into the Chinese marketplace. It was interest- was about $100,000 plus another $100,000 to have it ing, and it was probably the right idea at the time. But it transported and set up in front of the Beijing confer- really didn't end up, I think, reflecting the vast majority ence center. of the Chinese construction market and the opportunity We're seeing a shift taking place where we no longer that exists for wood-frame construction. have to contribute $1 million or $2 million to do a There were a number of villas built in and around demonstration project. In most of the demonstration China on a commercial basis as a result of people com- projects now, if we provide the lumber and some skilled ing and seeing Dream Home China and seeing what it expertise, typically a developer will put in the rest of the looked like. They liked the style of construction, so they associated costs. went on. I can't provide a number to the member oppos- We have a project that's going on right now in the ite. It certainly is not in the tens of thousands. It may be Tianjin Economic Development Area that's a four-storey in the thousands; I'm not sure. But it wasn't a huge com- building. We went out as a result of a memorandum of ponent of the growth that we've seen. understanding signed with the Ministry of Housing and [1525] Urban-Rural Development a little over a year ago, ac- It has been a good project from the perspective of tually, to build a multi-storey apartment building. demonstrations of what you can do with wood in China. This facility is just under construction. The founda- The fact that it's been there for,I guess, about eight years tions were in when I was there in March. I believe it's now also shows that wood-frame construction is a good started to be framed at this point. It will be the first style of construction that can last for a long period of multi-storey wood apartment building of this nature. time. There's no degrading of the building. It's still in In that particular case, again it's the case that we pro- very, very good shape today. vided lumber for one building. They are actually building, I typically visit it once a year while I'm over there. It I think, five all together, ifI 'm not mistaken, out of wood. largely at this point in time houses our office staff — all They liked what they saw, so they're expanding. of our staff, in fact, in our FII operations as well as the We've really shifted gears, and it's not just around Canada Wood Group operations. That could be some- wood frame. That certainly is one of the elements, but where else, actually. There were two buildings, and I furniture is another element. Concrete forming we think one of them has been re-leased and is now a pub, know about. Everyone is aware of that — the wood roof if I'm not mistaken. Some of the area where it was built systems, doors, windows. I think we are at a place now has been attractive, and it is used by the developer now where we will continue to see that very, very significant as another type of facility. growth in China. 6698 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Was it perfect from the beginning? I say absolutely thing else. I'd be very interested in knowing what those not. I think lots to learn from it. One of my jobs in this things might be. new portfolio is to take the learnings from FII and the One of those things, I know, would be those roof processes we've gone through since 2002 or '03 and try trusses. Again, I know that British Columbia also pro- and apply them to other industrial sectors in the prov- vided for and built roof trusses, etc. The cost of that, in ince. The member may have some other questions, but terms of the roof trusses to our treasury by way of dem- I hope that kind of gives her an outline of the process onstration and, again, the return of how many trusses so far. we managed to sell to China, I guess…. I would be inter- ested in getting that figure. If the minister can provide J. Kwan: Thank you to the minister for that, because that to me, I would really appreciate it. the website actually lists the number of different demon- stration projects as well. So I appreciate that. Hon. P. Bell: Just before I respond to that question, I [1530] want to correct the record. To the member for Cariboo Many of these questions that I have are fairly detailed. North: I had indicated that the option to change from I wonder, with this spreadsheet, if the minister could also option A to option B had expired last year. In fact, it was ensure that he provides me with each of the demonstra- in June of 2009 that the option expired. However, there tion projects — the list of them; where they are and what is a second option, and the second option is January of the province contributed in terms of those demonstra- 2013 for a decision. I just wanted to correct the record tion projects; the cost of those demonstration projects and make sure that's clear. for the province of British Columbia; and if it's in kind, To the member's question, we would be happy…. I'm such as wood; and the techniques that are being utilized thinking three years. Most of the demonstration projects for the development. If the minister can list those things have taken place in the last three years or so. We'll pro- out and cost it out for me, I would appreciate it. vide the spreadsheet data that the member is requesting Also, provide what the matching dollars are — com- for the last three years around demonstration projects. ing from the developer, from the Chinese government I do want to say to the member opposite, though, or whoever else is involved with those demonstration that tracking the specific sales related to those projects projects. I would be much obliged. is very difficult because developers typically purchase Segueing from that, if I could also get a spreadsheet from their mainstream suppliers. They don't necessarily — I'm sure the minister's staff has loads of them — that tell us after the fact whether or not they have done other will then tell us…. Presumably, the ministry is tracking, projects that we're not aware of. out of those demonstration projects, what it is yield- We are aware of…. For example, in Shijiazhuang, I ing by way of a return investment for us in terms of the believe, in Hebei province, we signed an agreement for Chinese government or developers in China that are half a dozen roofs or so — and we'll provide the exact now utilizing these techniques that they've learned and data — with a commitment to build an additional 100- the demonstration initiatives that they have picked up some roofs. We certainly can track that and provide that on, in building their own projects at their own cost. Then, data. In Shijiazhuang, the last time I was there, there if we can get an estimate of the value of that in terms of were many, many more roofs going up — far too many revenue generated for British Columbia, I would really that we could count — and would have directly related appreciate it as well. to the demonstration projects, because they were never I know that the roof trusses were part of the thing that done there. came out of the Dream Home initiative. In fact — back in [1535] 2005, I think it was — I and the critic for Health travelled I think the easiest, best number to count is really the to China. Actually, we went to visit the Dream Home in- total volume of lumber that's moved into the market- itiative to see what it looked like and what it was doing place. If the member opposite would like a graph or and how it was generating potential revenue and eco- would like the total volume since we've started our ef- nomic activity opportunities for British Columbia. forts in China in 2002, I'd be happy to provide that. In looking at the site, I must say, I was dumbfounded, because in China there is a huge population base, as J. Kwan: Well, I appreciate the information that the we all know, and there is a scarcity of land. Therefore, minister is going to give me, so I'll be looking forward density is the order of the day, and single-family dwell- to receiving the graphs and spreadsheet, particularly on ings such as the dream home are not the order of the the breakout of the demonstration projects, the actual day. And I thought: "How are we going to really generate costs and so on, and then also on the Dream Home in- these opportunities in return?" itiative itself. I'll be interested out of that…. As the minister says, it I'm just trying to get a sense of how much this in- didn't generate that many houses or villas or projects as vestment was from British Columbia and what the yield such, but rather it might have paved the way for some- was in return. Now, by way of measurement in return, Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6699

I would argue, though, that's kind of measuring a little portunity that's associated with that, as well as the fire bit like apples and oranges. If we look at raw logs, how code. The province of British Columbia, as well as the much we were able to export to China as a measure- government of Canada, entered into a tripartite memo- ment, I don't think that's a fair measurement of this randum of understanding, signed an MOU with the initiative at all. Ministry of Housing and Urban-Rural Development Why I say that is this. Unless the minister can provide of China in March of 2010 — originally from an initial to me out of that figure the breakout of how much of that meeting in November of 2009 that we had with Vice- actually went into these specific areas of development…. Minister Qiu Bao Xing. Or did the raw logs go into China, then, to be utilized to The memorandum of understanding was to develop build furniture and so on? The reason whyI ask is this. I a joint working group on wood-frame construction think there's an opportunity here for British Columbia for China. The Ministry of Housing and Urban-Rural to see how we can extend our economic opportunities by Development is responsible for all housing in China. adding value to these logs, therefore giving value to job In China over the next five years we're anticipating opportunities right here in British Columbia in terms of about 86 million units of housing. That would include furniture production, door frames and so on. about 36 million units of affordable housing and then I'm just wondering how we can maximize the job de- 50-or-so million units — about ten million per year velopment opportunities in British Columbia — have that occur on an annual basis. That's how you get the we done that? — in trying to get a sense of this initia- 86 million units. tive and its value to B.C. in terms of the taxpayers' point Vice-Minister Qiu and I in our meeting discussed of view. how we might move forward on the project and how I want to ask another question of the minister. We we might advance the agenda around wood-frame con- know there is some interest from the Chinese govern- struction. He grew up in a wood-frame house, is quite ment in looking at building the lower, six-storey-type comfortable with wood-frame construction and has been buildings in China — residential buildings, although provided with the objective from central government to some commercial, I guess. That's something the minis- see them reduce their carbon footprint on the landscape, ter is embarking on. If the minister could tell us how that particularly as it relates to construction. The Chinese is going and whether or not there are going to be issues government has mandated that in their 12th five-year around fire code related to that, which the Chinese plan to reduce their carbon intensity by 17 percent. might be looking at with these six-storey wood-frame Vice-Minister Qiu and I and the federal government constructions. signed this joint memorandum of understanding to es- tablish a committee, which is working on an ongoing Hon. P. Bell: I'm going to provide some approximate basis — it's a technical committee — as well as pursuing data here, but more detailed data certainly is available if a demonstration project. the member opposite would like it. The demonstration project I referred to earlier in In terms of the value of shipments into China of logs the Tianjin Economic Development Area is the project versus lumber, typically logs are representing something that was chosen by MOHURD and ourselves to move less than 10 percent of the total value going into the forward on, and that would be the first four-storey Chinese market. Lumber is something over 90 percent. wood-frame building in China that is built under the It does fluctuate a bit, but it's kind of in that range. new code that's available. That's quite different than other countries. Our ex- The member's question, though, is: will there be perience in Washington State is on the order of 50 or challenges around fire codes, building codes, as we 60 percent log and about 40 or 50 percent lumber. If move up from four to five to six storeys? Undoubtedly. you look at New Zealand, it's much higher to log again. Vice-Minister Qiu in my meeting with him about two Russia — virtually exclusively log now. weeks…. In fact, two weeks ago today I was with him [1540] here in British Columbia. Vice-Minister Qiu came on I think British Columbia can be pretty proud that our invitation and spent a day with us in Vancouver. the majority of our shipments into China is lumber, He's keenly interested in hybrid construction. He and it is because we've stayed very, very focused on thinks a combination of concrete and wood is a good op- lumber. I know the sensitivities around the exporta- tion so perhaps a couple of floors of concrete and four tion of round logs. Certainly, my goal — publicly floors of wood, or three and three, or five and one.I 'm not stated many times as Forests Minister; I continue to sure where we'll end up on it, but the technical committee state that position — is to see us shipping lumber, not continues to work away at this initiative. The first building logs into the market. So I think we have a good cred- is physically under construction in Tianjin and is sched- ible story to tell around that. uled for completion as we move into the fall months. The member opposite asked about the six-floor So I think to the question the member asks: yes, lots housing, multi-floor housing units in China and the op- of work to do on fire code, lots of work to do on build- 6700 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

ing code, but a very promising marketplace if we're able ies in China tend to be cities of under seven million, eight to create the appropriate codes that give the Chinese the million, nine million in population. Those are often con- confidence necessary. sidered small suburbs in China versus the first-tier cities that are larger populations — ten-million-plus people. J. Kwan: Is there any indication from the Chinese In a place like Shanghai it is unlikely that you will see government on the 86,000 residential units that they're significant six-storey structures. trying to build, that these are going to be in the frame- The target market for wood would more likely be in work of, I guess, low- to midrise-type buildings, or is it the strapping market there, where they build the units going to be highrises? out of concrete, and then when they drywall them, they The reason why I ask this is that when the current need to strap them with wood in order to apply the critic for Health and I went back to China, shortly after drywall or panelling or whatever product is used. So that, the Chinese government — I believe it's the cen- there's a lot of strapping material. There's also a lot of tral government — actually put out an edict for all the concrete forming material as those buildings get built. provinces in China that talked about construction and So there's lots of opportunity for wood, but it's a differ- particularly residential construction. Because of the ent opportunity. density issue, people were not allowed to build low- In the second-tier cities is where the six-storey walk-up density-type buildings. tends to develop. Those, I'm advised by Vice-Minister [1545] Qiu, probably represent in the order of 70, perhaps as I'm just wondering: in terms of that 86,000, the op- much as 75 percent of the total number of units to be portunity there in terms of wood construction — is that built. It is different depending on where you're located really real? Or is it really going to be more like the high- in China. rises? Even when we talk about the mixed-hybrid-type We're focusing our efforts — and this is important as building, mixed concrete and wood structure buildings, well, I think — on northern China — really, Shanghai I'm not even sure if that is meeting the density require- and north. In southern China, because of the moisture ment of the central government. Maybe the minister can in the air, wood is probably not the best product to use. shed some light on that. So we're really not focusing on the southern half of the country. We're focusing our efforts on the northern half Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite dropped three of the country. Clearly we're not going to build 86 mil- zeroes on the number of housing units being built in lion units of wood, but if we can continue to expand and China. However, I've been known to jump from bil- grow that market, we think it would be a good thing. lions to millions as well. So just to correct the record, it's 86 million, not 86,000. It's actually such a large num- J. Kwan: The minister is right.I did drop three zeroes. ber that it's hard to fathom that that many housing units I meant million, and I think I said thousand and 36 mil- would be built, especially given that the United States in lion, so you're correct. a big year builds two million. Biggest market and hard I'm now going to pass the floor over to the independ- to believe. ent member, who is just hopping in his chair. I should also say, just for the record…. The member didn't ask this question, but I often do get asked this B. Simpson: Thank you to the opposition critic. question: how big are these units? Typically about 800 Speaking of dropping zeroes, one of my estimates de- square feet would be a normal housing unit that is built, bates as Forests critic was in a roundabout way to point so probably half the size of what is built in the United out that the B.C. Timber Sales had booked their spread- States but very similar to what we're seeing constructed sheet in the millions when it was supposed to be in the in downtown Vancouver or downtown Victoria here. In thousands. It took a little while for the minister to figure fact, my daughter and her husband just moved into a out that he was not playing with that much money. So place that I would say is very similar in size, and it is a other people drop those zeroes easily as well. very high-end condominium unit in downtown Victoria. [1550] So size-wise, about 800 square feet. I want to stay on FII — a couple of questions, in The member asked about the density levels and the particular the B.C. Wood First component of FII. FII direction provided by the central government on that. has responsibilities for looking at implementation The member asked: is it going to be highrise or mid-rise and driving that, and yet there is no stated objective or low-rise? The answer is: all of the above. or performance measure or target. My question to the In speaking with Vice-Minister Qiu just two weeks ago minister is…. today, actually, he advised that he expects somewhere This is an explicit initiative of government to drive around 70 percent of the units that will be built out of uptake of wood to be used in construction and various the 36 million affordable housing units will be six-storey. other building, and yet I don't see a measure here. I'm Those are typically in second-tier cities. Second-tier cit- wondering if the government did a baseline and is track- Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6701

ing against that baseline how successful the uptake is on year, so that's why the member will see it. We think that the government's B.C. wood initiative. although we perhaps had the initial lead in this area, we're going to have to work hard to continue, and 100 Hon. P. Bell: Thanks very much to the member for percent is hard to build on. Perhaps we've given our- his question. B.C. Wood Specialties Group is an organ- selves a little more room than we should, but we think ization that represents the broader value-added sector 90 percent is a reasonable goal. and typically kind of the high-value producers in the The member opposite, though, talked about his con- wood manufacturing industry. FII has a number of con- cern of us focusing too much on the Chinese market tracts with FII. and not on other opportunities associated with the for- According to my very quick calculation here, there est products industry. I think that I would just have him are six individual contracts, and the total value of turn his mind to the work that's been done on the Wood those contracts for fiscal '10-11 is a little over $1.5 mil- First Act, because I happen to agree with the member lion. They include the Global Buyers Mission, which is opposite that we need to have multiple avenues for the maybe not quite the biggest single endeavour, but it's use of B.C.'s forest products. almost $500,000 into Japan, $400,000 into the United I have always believed that the two biggest single States and then some smaller programs that are associ- opportunities — at least in terms of volume and to a ated with it. lesser degree value as well — are China, certainly on I'd refer the member opposite to page 19 of the service the volume side, and in terms of volume and value, the plan, where we do measure incremental sales generated non-residential sector. To that end, when I was Minister in B.C. in the B.C. non-residential market in terms of of Forests I created the Wood Enterprise Coalition and millions of board feet, which is typically the place where provided $1.75 million in funding, and they're doing a these companies would sell their products into. tremendous amount of work in terms of advancing the agenda around wood-first construction. B. Simpson: I guess what I'm getting at is the cau- I attended a conference held by Wood WORKS! per- tion of so much energy being spent in China on trying haps three or four weeks ago in Vancouver. They've held to expand wood growth in China when we may have a them now for about five or six years, I think. They have huge incremental market here in British Columbia. It's produced an architect's kit for the use of additional a matter of focus. So I'll take from the minister that that wood in large commercial and institutional buildings. It is being tracked. turned out that at that conference I believe there were I do think it's important as a benchmark for making about 1,100 or 1,200 architects and engineers. It was in- sure we maximize our domestic market, because as the credible the turnout at that particular event given that minister knows, that also maximizes our community if you go back four, five or six years, it was like pulling economic development opportunities, keeps things in teeth to get eight people out. So certainly the industrial- British Columbia. It addresses climate change if we're commercial community has turned their mind to not shipping wood all over the place. building buildings. Speaking of performance measures, I would refer to page 21 of the FII service plan and just ask for clarifica- [D. Black in the chair.] tion on what appears to be a bit of a strangeness in this performance measure. We also commissioned a study on how high you could [1555] actually go with wood, especially with the new products "Percentage of customers who feel that choosing prod- that are coming out — cross-laminated timber as well as ucts from B.C. is a good choice for the environment" is, other products. Although I've yet to receive the report on in '09-10, n/a; '10-11, 100 percent; 2011-12, n/a; 2012-13, my desk — I think it may be coming through staff at this 90 percent; 2013-14, n/a. I'm not sure if that's a typo or point — I saw a speech by Michael Green in Australia if there's something strange with tracking whether or where he was suggesting potentially upwards of 30 stor- not people think that we're producing environment- eys could be built out of wood. Now, I am an optimistic ally sensitive lumber products. I wonder if the minister guy and think that might be a bit on the optimistic side, could just clarify that. but I do know there's a building in London, England, that is nine storeys, manufactured out of cross-laminated Hon. P. Bell: I'm going to answer the second question timber. I would dearly love to see British Columbia ex- first and then come back to whatI think may or may not ceed that record and look for taller opportunities. have been a question. It might just have been a state- I think there are tremendous opportunities in the ment, but I do want to touch on it. commercial-industrial sector. I think those were dem- So this measure in terms of the international recogni- onstrated through the Olympics with the Richmond ice tion for B.C. as the leading supplier of environmentally oval, with the Vancouver Convention Centre, with the superior forest products. The survey is done every second Trout Lake arena, with the Whistler events centre, with 6702 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

all of those wonderful venues that showed the world industry? The minister knows whereI 'm going with this what B.C. can do with its wood products. — major priorities on the bioeconomy. I share the member's passion and interest around A brand-new report today from Pricewaterhouse- expanding the use of forest products and much higher- Coopers, and this is the language that I'm reading value uses than what we've traditionally used them for. everywhere. This is from CPW : "Business as usual" — i.e., the normative traditional industry, panels, pulp, B. Simpson: Because of time constraints, I'm going lumber — "cannot get us to sustainability or secure eco- to truncate, with the minister's forbearance, my final nomic and social prosperity. These can be achieved only couple of questions here. The way thatFII is structured, through radical change, starting now." as I understand it — and it's explicit in the docu- It strikes me that FII and the tax dollars used there mentation — China is the focus. It says it right in the would be better positioned to do the exact same documentation. thing that the minister and the government did in [1600] China, and that's create the beachhead here in British The way that it's structured, it's about 80 percent Columbia. The report goes on to state that what's mis- taxpayer funded. The leveraging from the federal gov- sing is that leadership. Because of a time sensitivity, ernment of 42 percent; B.C. contributes 38 percent with that's a lot to say. their funds to FII; 42 percent from Natural Resources My point is: haven't we spent enough taxpayer money Canada; the federal government about 20 percent from developing the Chinese market? Industry should now the forest industry. Yet as the minister has already indi- be taking it over as part of their responsibility to grow cated, and there are indications in here, some of the FII it, to secure it, to make sure we have a presence there. money actually comes back into industry associations Taxpayer money gets spent on a whole new industry, — Council of Forest Industries, Coast Forest Products which is a $200 billion industry that the world has yet to Association, etc. really discover and that B.C. could be first on. Can't we When I look at this, coming out of the industry and shift those dollars over from FII to do that? the company that I worked for — we were in China very early; we were in Japan early; we were in India early — Hon. P. Bell: I think the answer to his question is for the most part, we just saw it as good business that we not quite yet, in my view. I think the member oppos- needed to grow there. At that time there weren't govern- ite makes a good point in that there should be a point ment programs like this to do that. in time where the work is largely done and where the I look at what FII states, where its market outreach bulked-up level of funding that we currently have in the communication is to explain B.C.'s forest practices. I get Chinese market — and we've had there for the last three that. I think that's a legitimate government job, to go years, as long as I was responsible for the file — could and say that we log environmentally, etc. be pulled back and reallocated into other areas. I think But market research to unearth potential opportun- it would be risky to back out of the market at this point. ities and create new market demand, I would argue, is I think there's still a need for us to probably be there for the job of the industry. Marketing resources for general another two, maybe three years or so. use by the industry, such as publications on wood, etc. — To that end I should point to the member oppos- that's the industry's responsibility. ite that we've created a new funding allocation system Market development programming in China where, within FII. Prior to this year we typically offered fund- as the minister has already indicated, looking at alter- ing at a consistent percentage of industry participation nate ways to grow the business…. I guess that if it's a across the spectrum of FII programs. risky venture, which is the argument, where you are try- [1605] ing to get the inroads, you're trying to get that beachhead, This year we created two levels of funding — one for there's an opportunity for government to be involved in building new markets and one for sustaining existing that. But now FII is going to structure a China board, markets. The company contribution increases signifi- a FII China subsidiary that has, for the most part, the cantly as you go to sustaining existing markets. Building CEO, who's sitting with the minister, and five, six other new markets we provide 90 percent of the funding; in- board members from the industry, which is going to be dustry, 10 percent. Maintaining existing markets is underwritten for the most part by taxpayer dollars in 50-50 funding. that function. I think the notion that the member opposite is I guess where I'm going to with the minister is: do we bringing forward is one that we agree with and, in fact, still need to be so heavily vested as taxpayers? Have we have moved on already in terms of creating a variety of not formed a beachhead, and isn't it the responsibility of partnering levels, and perhaps more work needs to be industry now to take advantage of that beachhead, do done. I won't suggest that…. This was the first year we that work and, with the limited amount of taxpayer dol- did it. Obviously, industry had some concerns because lars that we've got, shift priorities to another emerging it was a change to them. It is one way of directing fund- Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6703

ing, perhaps, into newer markets versus maintaining a date and hold hands; you don't have to pay the tab. existing markets. I think industry has an obligation now that the beach- To answer the member's question, I think it would be head has been formed. risky to back out. We've really only had the level of fund- The reason I want to get it on the record is because ing there for the last three years that we are living on I do believe that early adopters are going to win in this today, and I think there's more work to do. I think that biotechnology. It feels to me that it is a field that is just if we did back out at this point, we could easily be dis- about to flame up. The FPInnovations report points out placed by one of our competitors. that Europe is heavily vested. They are the largest invest- China is a different market than virtually any other ors. They will subsidize it. They will make it happen. My market in the world. The Chinese government typically fear is that by continuing to put our limited resources operates under a model where they expect to see indus- into China instead of asking the industry now to pick up try and government holding hands in endeavours, and the slack there, diverting that now, we will no longer be that's the model of business that they do in China. Many early adopters. We'll be in a position where we'll be be- of the companies are state-owned companies in China. hind what I think is going to happen very rapidly. So when we go to China, the ability to go there with a [1610] minister of the Crown as well as the CEOs from industry I take the minister's point, and we've had ongoing I believe is the appropriate model. conversations. One of the things that I've asked, as the I think we're a couple of years, maybe three, away. But minister is well aware, and I've asked the opposition I've already had that discussion with the CEOs. I think leader as well…. I think an easy way for us — and the most of them agree with me that that's about the time- FII funds are there as well as other opportunities — is to line we should be on. hold a leader's summit or a Premier's summit of some I do want to jump over to what the member opposite kind in this province on this particular new emerging refers to, which is the bioeconomy. I'll call it green tech economy and simply ask the experts to give us advice as for now, but you could use a variety of titles. I share the to whether our priorities are right or not and maybe use member's view that green tech, or the bioeconomy, has the FII sooner than the minister envisages. big upside potential. I think it is early days still in that I won't make the minister go on the record about particular industry, and I think we need a thoughtful, that, but I did want to say I don't agree with the minister well-reasoned plan to how we could support that indus- about the time frame. I do think we need to put some try, where we could invest dollars in a way that will allow resources in sooner rather than later to this. If the min- that industry to grow. ister cares to comment…. If not, I'll sit down and let the We've done some of that through the ICE fund al- opposition critic take over. ready as a government. We've had, I think, two or three levels into the ICE fund of $25 million per time. The Hon. P. Bell: Just to be clear, I didn't want the mem- phase 2 call for bioenergy and things like that have ber opposite to think that I don't believe we need to started to increase the amount of bioenergy that's being start investing in the green tech, clean tech industry produced. I know that's a relatively simply form of the now or shortly. It's simply that I think we need to con- bioeconomy, not the more complex one that the mem- tinue to invest in China for another two or three years ber opposite envisages. perhaps in order to solidify that market before we can I do think that there's an interest in that. As we are reduce our impact. pursuing our various options for economic development As the member pointed out in some very early com- in this ministry and as we're considering what our op- ments, there are thousands and thousands of people in tions will be, the bioeconomy, or green tech or clean tech, this province working as a result of the China market, is one of the ones that we're considering. I think it would many of them in the member opposite's riding. So while be opportune for the member and me to find some time I appreciate his ideology in not wanting to provide fund- over the next few weeks or month to have more discus- ing to industry, the forest industry was in a very, very sions on this. It is one of the areas that this government, tough state. Premier Christy Clark, believes has a big upside potential, I know the member is on the record on many occa- and we're considering some action in terms of helping sions suggesting that the province should be doing more support or develop that industry. to help support the forest industry, not less. I'd refer him back to some of his earlier comments. But with that, we B. Simpson: I have to close off my part of the debate, are in a raging agreement on the need to move forward but I do want to put this on the record. I guess I struggle on a green tech economy. with the fact that risk is being absorbed by government. The very definition of entrepreneurship is to take that J. Kwan: Great. Then I wonder if the minister can risk, and then you get the benefits from that. The min- provide this House, just following on that thread of dis- ister's comments about holding hands…. You can go on cussion, or provide me with their workplan. The minister 6704 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

talked about the new emerging opportunities in China, termine what might be the right areas for us to focus our most notably the green tech area, and that there is now efforts on. That work is ongoing, and we'll certainly be going to be a second stream of funding coming from FII able to provide more information in months to come. targeted towards that. So there's the existing budget for the existing initia- J. Kwan: In the latest service plan that the minister tives that have been started, and then there's the new has provided, it does actually talk about key sectors of emerging area. What is the workplan then, I guess, for growth, trying to identify what those key sectors might both of them? I'd be interested in knowing, projecting be and to support the creation of high-value jobs in three years out, consistent with the service plan that's a British Columbia. Of course, these goals are goals that three-year service plan. What are the goals and targets? we all support. Where are the areas of concentration that the govern- The question, of course, is: what sectors has the minis- ment wants to go in, in both of these areas, and what is ter identified to be the sectors to invest in, and what sort the government hoping to achieve? of support would be provided by the government? I know this is far too much detail for today's purposes. Presumably, whether it is this minister who is taking Of course, we're also pressed for time as well, but I'd the lead on that in collaboration with other ministries or be very interested in getting that information from the not, the minister would be able to pull together, though, minister's staff. from the various ministries across government and to provide for that blueprint, I would argue, so that British Hon. P. Bell: I just want to correct the member op- Columbians can have an understanding on what this vi- posite a little bit. I think the member opposite intimated sion is that the government is looking at and how are that I had said we would take money out of FII to fund they going to support it. How are they going to generate green tech initiatives. I may have misunderstood, but the results that they say they want? Then, also to have that may or may not be the case. I don't know that. the breakout on the budget as these initiatives are going What I do know is we are looking at the opportun- to be implemented. ities around green technology right now to determine I'm wondering if there is a workplan of sorts that will whether or not there is the opportunity that the member lay this out so we can have a sense of what it is that the for Cariboo North believes exists and, if there is, how we government is looking at. might fund those. But there is money in other ministries, as well, that can help support that. So it wouldn't neces- Hon. P. Bell: This is new work that is going on right sarily be FII that would be the driver of that, although it now and has just started to take place since I have taken may be. FII could be one of the drivers. responsibility for the portfolio. Again, the portfolio is In terms of the requested information, it is all avail- quite new. It involves elements from many different able in the service plan for FII. So the current plan as we ministries. Now that I've had responsibility for the file have it today is in the service plan. for about seven weeks, we are really trying to consoli- What I said to the member for Cariboo North and date our thought. what I will say again is that I believe, as we have entered The point of putting in the service plan — that the into this new ministry, it is a consolidation of a number member is referring to — the lines about identifying of ministries. It has different elements that have come to key sectors and trying to develop strategies around it, and one of the things that I am interested in is look- growing those sectors is because I do believe that's the ing at economic development through a different lens right approach to economic development. We're look- and identifying key sectors that we can take some of the ing at the things that we think we do well in British lessons we learn from FII, in terms of how we were able Columbia, that we can out-compete the international to move the forest industry forward, and apply those les- community on and that we can use as levers to help sons to other industries. grow our economy at a much faster rate than what That may or may not include places likeC hina. It may we're used to growing it. be a domestic product that we're looking at building or The intent of the work that is going on right now is to creating opportunities around. So it isn't necessarily fol- identify those sectors. That work,I expect, will conclude lowing the exact same model, but the principles that we as we move into the summer this year and will be pub- developed through the Forestry Innovation Investment licly announced. program…. How can we apply those to perhaps an in- The process that we're going through is that staff -in dustry like green tech? ternally, within the ministry, are doing the analysis, and [1615] then we will be reviewing at a cabinet level, at various Green tech could become a stand-alone feature, some- committee levels, the outcomes of that work. It's not been thing that we look at. Again, I'm not presupposing that provided to me yet. I haven't seen any staff recommen- that will be the outcome, but currently we are looking dations to date. I do anticipate over the coming weeks to at all of the industrial sectors in British Columbia to de- start seeing that information, but it is very early on. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6705

What I wanted to do in the service plan and why I ultimately go on a mission with — and then, of course, asked those lines to be included in the service plan was to promote whatever company with these trade mis- to make it clear that we are thinking differently about sions in other jurisdictions. economic development in the province right now, that I think the minister is right. TheC hinese government we're looking at ways of creating good, solid family- does look at government relationships and so on. It is supporting jobs. I didn't want to enter a new year and a different model of functioning. But at the same time, a new service plan and a new budget without letting how do we do it in such a way that will ensure there are people know that we are considering a different ap- no biases and that for the folks who have opportunities, proach to the way that we can grow the economy. it's equal and open to everyone? I'm sorry that I can't provide any more information to the member, just because I haven't received anything Hon. P. Bell: Just very briefly, in terms of attendees to date. But certainly, I'm more than prepared to work on the missions, all are welcome. We extend that offer with the member and provide information subject to to anyone in the forest industry. But occasionally we'll the timing that will be necessary for me to take this to have civic officials who will want to come along as well. cabinet and so on. Anyone attending the trade missions picks up their cost I know the member opposite understands the lev- of their travel and meals and hotels and everything else els of confidentiality that have to be applied at various associated with it. points, but I'm happy to provide the member opposite I suppose one could argue that there is some cost with information as I am able to. borne by FII in the sense that we do the organizing [1620] and make sure we have translators and that sort of thing, but by and large, the cost is borne. We've had J. Kwan: I think, in other words, a short way of the very small operators come with us on some of these minister saying that would be: "Stay tuned. There will be trips. It's different for them in terms of what they get announcements." Of course, I will stay tuned and will be out of the trip versus a larger operator, but I think, looking at this and looking forward to working with the really, the success behind these large trade missions minister in getting the detailed information, because I has been a very focused effort, and they've been suc- think that this is important. I think there are opportun- cessful on that basis. ities there, opportunities to be had. I just want to touch on one thing that the member The question becomes, in terms of taxpayer account- opposite said and make sure this is on the record. One ability: are we utilizing the taxpayers' resources in a way of the keys, I believe, to a successful trading initiative that will best benefit an economic return for British with the Chinese is understanding how we both win in Columbians; that adds value from our natural resources that relationship. to British Columbians in terms of job creation, and then I think it would be improper for the Chinese to argue also bridging into new arenas? I think China is looking to us for…. Aside from the that they should only receive round logs from our prov- raw material — which, I know, everybody hungers for…. ince, because that's really ultimately probably all they Beyond that, the question for us becomes: how can we want. They would like to add as much value on their create the jobs here in British Columbia, in its optimal side of the ocean as they possibly could. I think it would state, in terms of those opportunities? What China, I be wrong for us to try and sell a fully finished chair into know, is also looking for is new technologies. We have China. It would be very difficult for us to compete in the technological know-how. We have the opportunities that marketplace. I'm sure the member opposite knows here to develop that so that we can market what we've the wage rates that people are prepared to work for in got and to yield that economic return. So there are lots China. We wouldn't be able to compete. We simply of opportunities there. wouldn't have any success. I think we are in agreement. The question is: how do The key, I believe, in developing a partnership with we do it? And how do we best do it? Do we do it in a way the Chinese is what they call héxié, and héxié is a har- that is transparent, open and accountable in terms of a monious relationship, or it's the word for "harmonious" return for British Columbia? in Chinese. I think that's the real key: finding the bal- I know I'm going to wrap this area up because there's ance point between what China needs and what British just a load of other stuff I have to get on to, and time is Columbia needs and having the level of relationship, or running out. But I'll be interested in getting at a later héxié, that works for both parties. time from the minister's staff…. When the minister I'm also joined now by Shom Sen, who is also an as- goes on these missions, he talked about actually bring- sistant deputy minister in the ministry responsible for ing CEOs over and so on and so forth. I'll be interested trade and all kinds of good things, like investment and in knowing what the process is that the government en- innovation. gages in to select the CEOs that the minister will then [1625] 6706 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

J. Kwan: Either the minister needs to polish up on his sibility for the Chinese market than even going back to Chinese, or I need to polish up on my Chinese, because in 1972 because, of course, the most sig- I have no idea what he just said. In any event, that's nei- nificant individual historically in China is Dr. Norman ther here nor there. Bethune, who went to China in about 1934, if memory I'm going to follow up with the minister's staff some serves me correctly. more on this, but for now I'm going to table this issue Although I always hesitate to give the NDP credit for because I've just realized that I only have 21 minutes to anything, I will note that Dr. Norman Bethune was a do the rest of the areas that I want to cover. Then I have member of the Canadian Communist Party, and I know the critic for small business, who's here, who wanted to that is the predecessor of the . So deal with small business issues. I will continue to give the NDP credit for its predecessor, I can go on for days on this, because it is an area the Canadian Communist Party. of high interest and importance, I think, for British Columbians. But for now I'm going to table this, and I Interjection. will follow up with the minister to set up further meet- ings with his staff, and I'll look forward to receiving the Hon. P. Bell: All in jest. We use Norman Bethune's materials that they are going to pass on to me. name as a positive thing, and I will note that the current I want to bridge this now into the area, broadly, the mayor of Vancouver is related to Dr. Norman Bethune. minister calls the Asia-Pacific initiative, and I'd like So there are many things — well, not many, but a few to discuss with the minister about that. Now, with the things — that we have to be thankful to the NDP, whose Asia-Pacific initiative, there is the…. Maybe the minister predecessor was the Canadian Communist Party. can just give me a quick three-minute response about However, I've used up at least two minutes of the what the government is doing at the moment and where three minutes that the member allotted me, and I'll try the government thinks that they will go in the future in and be coherent for the final minute. Actually, I think terms of the general trade opportunities that the govern- it's going to sound a bit like my previous response, so I ment sees that's available to British Columbia. apologize for that. We have a number of different trading partners.C hina, [1630] of course, is the emerging market, and I am proud to say One of the things that we did in the new construction that it was the New Democrat government that really of this ministry as well as our government is to bring initiated the bond with China and began to build that. all of the foreign trade initiatives underneath a single It dates actually way back to Dave Barrett when he first umbrella, which is contained within Jobs, Tourism and brought the firstC anadian delegation ever in Canada to Innovation. China at a time when China was not open to the west- One of the things that we are looking at right now…. ern communities. He actually saw the opportunities in Again, I apologize. As the member opposite said…. I bridging that and began that back in 1975. think the comment she used earlier was: "Stay tuned." Subsequently, of course, subsequent Premiers picked But I am looking at all of the international trade of- it up as well, and it really actually caught on fire,I would fices that we have right now. To my count, as I went argue, when the former Premier, , took it through all of them, there are about 20 offices around on and then took the opportunity to twin the province the world either through Tourism B.C., through the of British Columbia with the Guangdong province and initiatives that we have in terms of our foreign trade of- then also as well for the cities, the city of Vancouver with fices or through FII. Guangzhou city. In China there are, according to my calculations, six That's yielded a lot of return, and subsequent Premiers, offices — three with FII and three through the previ- as I said, have sort of taken up on that, and now we see ous ministry of tourism, technology and innovation; this administration picking up on what had been started. a couple in India; two in Japan; one in Korea; one in So those are all good efforts. Germany; one in England; and one in California. So that said, with respect to the vision for the future, So we're looking at all of those. The key is going to with China being the emerging market — we have other be — again, to step back to what I said in my previous markets as well in Europe, in India, in Korea, in Taiwan response — to look at what the core industries are that and so on and so forth — can the minister just give us a we're going to focus our efforts on if that is a strategy that three-minute understanding on what is the vision, what we want to pursue. That work, of course, is ongoing. is the direction, and where will the areas of investments Once we understand that here are the core industries and targets be for the government in terms of those that we think we have an opportunity to promote and trade opportunities? grow, then the next question becomes: where do we need to be in order to accomplish that? Hon. P. Bell: I would actually argue that in a very I'm unable to direct the member opposite and say: "I subtle way, the NDP actually have a greater respon- expect we're going to have a presence in Bangalore, in Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6707

Tokyo, in Beijing." I can't do that today. But I will commit ment that's been signed, which deliver opportunities for to advising the member as we move through that process British Columbia? and the thinking. I know that's not a great answer for her, [1635] but it is the only answer I can provide because it's the truth. That's the work that we are doing at this point. Hon. P. Bell: The actual setup of the facility, the ori- So I appreciate the member's question. I know I went ginal cost of the facility was about $1.4 million. We have over my three minutes in my rambling response, and I'll staff at this existing facility but also at the World Trade try and keep the next one tighter. Centre, as well, that provide services associated with the Asia-Pacific initiative. J. Kwan: I am tempted to enter into a debate with the A good example, actually, of a project…. A specific minister about communism and then, of course, around example of a project that came to fruition recently as the CCF-NDP and what they did in terms of that. There's a result of the efforts of this particular division of the a long history aside from the trade issue that the CCF- ministry was the DaimlerChrysler deal on the fuel cell NDP had a record of, which I'm very proud of. At a time engine construction process that was announced — $50 when it wasn't popular for any politician of any political million for Burnaby, British Columbia — maybe about a stripe to advocate and fight for the very basic rights that month ago, a month and a bit ago. we all enjoy today for the ethnic minority community, it In the spirit of knowing that we're time-constrained was the CCF-NDP who did that — a big reason why I and that I was too rambling in a previous statement, am a proud New Democrat today. I will guess and respond to what I think the mem- But I am going to save that for another day, for an- ber's next question might be by saying I'd be happy to other discussion, because now I only have 14 minutes provide her with a list of the accomplishments of the to get the rest of this work done. So maybe I'll engage centre in terms of what investments have been made in in further discussion with the staff around this, with the British Columbia. minister around the Asia-Pacific initiative and the trade offices and the representatives and the work that they're J. Kwan: Yes, that's exactly where I would like to go doing and how the government measures success in and then to perhaps engage again with the minister's terms of return and so on. staff around it, as well. For me the first point of contact I do recall, actually, a former minister in a different is important, of course, but then beyond that, in terms iteration, under a different title. He used to tell me that of what the actual delivery at the end of the day is, which how the trade representatives did their work was actually says: "Here are these opportunities that came out of this sometimes in a car, sometimes on a plane, sometimes first point of contact." Presumably that's the kind of out of their home, and made these connections some- work that the ministry does in terms of tracking and do- how to yield the benefit to British Columbia. I found ing it as a performance measure piece. that to be, frankly, strange. I don't know how people can I'm going to move on from this and sort of go into a find these connections in somebody's car and in their little bit, very quickly, the venture capital tax credit pro- home and on the plane and so on. grams that the government had put in place. Maybe I'll So things, it seems like, have shifted out a little bit, just put this forward. It's not so much to ask questions have changed a little bit, and perhaps the government today, because we simply don't have time, but to simply has been more strategic in terms of that investment. I'll put on a marker here. be interested in engaging in further discussion with the I'd like to explore a variety of areas in terms of the tax minister's staff at a later time around that to further ex- credit programs that the government has in place, the plore this area. venture capital tax programs. So I'd like to put a marker I want to ask the minister this question around the in here. If the minister could be agreeable to having his Asia-Pacific Business Centre, which was set up on staff available so I can explore this area with his staff, I Robson Street. I have the basic information around this would appreciate it. centre, but I'd like to know the breakout again in terms Then I'd like to move on to another critical area that's of the budget for this centre, if the minister can provide been brought to my attention, and that is the Canada-EU that to me. trade agreement — CETA, in other words. Provinces were Part of the job, of course, is to build these relation- asked to table offers to the federal government by March ships, to provide information around investment 28 for negotiations with the EU that will start in May. This opportunities for companies bilaterally and so on. So was the opportunity for the provincial governments to re- I'm wondering again: aside from first contact of people quest any exemptions from this trade agreement. coming to this centre to get the information, how else is The EU is requesting full access to procurement by the minister measuring the value of this centre? Is there subnational governments, and this would eliminate any follow-up in terms of these contacts that will yield the right to specify local priorities when public money an actual return by way of an actual investment or agree- is being invested in goods, services or capital projects. 6708 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

The UBCM, as the minister knows, along with the B.C. way of concerns. That would be the areas of transparency School Trustees Association have passed resolutions re- and openness around this. People actually want to know questing that their members be excluded from CETA. the negotiation process that is in place right now: what I'm wondering whether or not that has been done and is being negotiated; what exemptions are being talked if the minister can give me a quick, brief update on the about; and what areas of concerns have been articulated status of CETA. I know there was a federal election that on behalf of us, British Columbia, to our federal govern- sort of stalled things, but this actually occurred before ment around this agreement. the election was called, so there should be some oppor- I know that a number of sectors have raised these tunity by way of an update. issues. They're worried about it, and rightfully so that [1640] they're worried about it. They're wanting to make sure that there is openness and transparency. Hon. P. Bell: The CETA negotiations are ongoing. They want to know that…. For example, the Council Round 7 took place in April. British Columbia does of Canadians raised the issue of water rights. They have have a presence. We've been consulting with the Union raised the issues of transit, energy, health care services of B.C. Municipalities. But frankly, B.C.'s interests lie — as examples. There are issues around pharmaceutical more to the west than they do to the east. Certainly, our drug patent extensions that would have implications re- encouragement with our federal partner is to look at lated to this. I can go on with a big, long list of this, but creating trading relationships with China, Korea, Japan, people are concerned about it. I know that CUPE, for other Asian countries — India. example, also has an interest in this issue. We are at the table. We are involved. We've been listen- I know that we're out of time, but this is something ing to the comments. In fact, I had a conference call with that I think the minister can quickly commit to, and the minister from Quebec on this issue about three weeks that is to commit to openness and accountability in this ago or so. We are consulting. Our interests, however, are process. more focused to the west than they are to the east. Will the minister commit today that this informa- tion that should be on the public record will be made J. Kwan: But I'm wondering. Has the provincial govern- available to the public and that any exemptions being ment made any submissions on behalf of British Columbia asked for before the agreement is signed off and be- to the federal government around exemptions? fore the matter is submitted to the federal government be made known to the public so that we're aware of Hon. P. Bell: I can tell the member opposite that we what the British Columbia government is doing on our have tabled the concerns specifically of the municipal behalf? governments with our federal government, who is the [1645] lead negotiator. Hon. P. Bell: What I can commit to the member op- J. Kwan: Just from UBCM? Or is it the B.C. School posite — she listed a variety of different groups — is Trustees Association as well? that any advice that we receive from those groups will be taken into account. But any international nego- Hon. P. Bell: At this point, only UBCM. I will take the tiation, by the nature of what it is, is between federal B.C. School Trustees' issues under advisement. governments, not provincial governments. The advice that we provide to the Canadian government may or J. Kwan: Why didn't the government table those con- may not be accepted, and that is the role that we all have cerns at the time? in this world, sitting in this Legislature instead of the Canadian Parliament. Hon. P. Bell: I'm not aware that there's been a for- The member opposite, I know, is the new-found mal presentation to government at this point by the B.C. owner of a large number of seats in the province of School Trustees Association. I could be corrected on Quebec. I'm certain that she'll be able to talk to her fed- that, given that I've been in the portfolio for seven weeks, eral leader to encourage him to deal with some of these but I'm not aware that there's been a presentation. issues as well. What I offered to the member opposite previously was that I would take that under advisement, pursue trying to J. Kwan: No doubt. I have faith in our federal counter- better understand the B.C. School Trustees Association's part, who will for sure pursue these issues. In fact, during comments and needs, and then decide whether or not we the election some questions were asked of them, and need to move forward with a specific request as well. they put it very much on the public record, in terms of what their intentions are, for everyone to see. J. Kwan: I think that I'll be very specific around some I'm not worried about our federal NDP counter- of the issues that have been brought to my attention by parts, but I'm a little bit worried about the federal Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6709

Liberal counterparts, for this member's direction, and J. Kwan: Well, we're making progress. I like it. then also very much worried about the Conservative Now I've completely run out of time and, in fact, over- government's direction on this, because so far they ac- spent the time that I was allotted. There are many areas tually didn't answer the survey that was put out during which I have not yet even been able to canvass. the election on the public record about the issue. They [1650] just ignored it. Just by way of an example, I was wanting to get into I'm very much worried about it. But I know that the the B.C. Innovation Council, some of the major agencies, Premier had pledged that she would work cooperatively boards and commissions that the minister is responsible with the federal government. In the spirit of this cooper- for. There are other areas of whichI provided a list to the ation, I would also expect, though, that she would live minister, and I don't think I've touched on even half of up to the objective of transparency, openness and ac- the items that I wanted to sort of go into. countability that she's repeatedly stated that she would In light of the fact that we've now run out of time, I aspire towards. would like to follow up on the minister's offer to meet On that front, while I appreciate that the minister with his staff to canvass these areas in detail, just as we says that he cannot control what the federal govern- would, I guess, in the estimates process, although in a ment does on these matters, will he commit, though, meeting setting with his staff. that the information, the request which the provincial If the minister would agree to that, I will then hand the government will put forward to the federal government, floor over to my colleague, who has some quick questions will be made available on the public record so that to ask, and then we'll go into the main piece as we wrap the community in British Columbia, people in British up this set of estimates in the area of small business. Columbia, will know exactly what it is that the prov- incial government is asking of the federal government S. Fraser: Madam Chair, it's good to see you in the with respect to this agreement? chair. Hello again to the minister and your staff, a different Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite was in govern- staff this time. ment for a period of time and was a cabinet minister I wanted to touch bases very, very quickly. I have and, I would think, would understand that by the na- made a request to government to set up a meeting. I was ture of negotiations, oftentimes there is information actually steered to Jobs, Tourism and Innovation as the that you don't want to disclose, especially to those that appropriate ministry at this point in time, and I've got to you're negotiating with. So I'm unable to make, I think, say that it is, because this is an issue that's going to seem the level of commitment that the member opposite is like déjà vu to the minister, but jobs and innovation is asking for. what it's all about. What I can assure the member is that if there are It's the proposal from Voith, the company out of groups that are interested in talking to British Columbia Germany, fibre technology. I know the minister, in his about our positions, we will make sure that we do that, previous role as Minister of Forests, commissioned and that in the event of information that we do present FPInnovations, and they confirmed that, indeed, there's a to the federal government, where it can appropriately technology potentially available that could return B.C. to be disclosed to the parties that would have a concern, being the world leader in the pulp and paper industry. we'll also do that. But I do need to make sure that the The opportunity still may exist. I have a request in to member understands that when you're in a negotiation the minister. I put it in a couple of weeks ago. I know he of the nature that we're in, there are times when not all and his staff have been busy preparing for estimates, soI information would be appropriately disclosed in that understand that this can take a while. negotiation. While I have the minister here and while I have the floor, I was just wondering if I could get a confirmation J. Kwan: Maybe I can get this commitment from the that we could have such a meeting, and I could update minister, then. For the folks who have contacted me, the minister on the potential opportunity that does exist, and there are a great number of them — some of them again with Voith, that could turn our pulp and paper in- are particularly those with an organization — would the dustry around for the good for jobs in the province. minister agree to having a meeting with them? I could set up a meeting with all these folks here so Hon. P. Bell: In the spirit of expediting the estimates they can have a discussion with the minister and at the process, I will agree to that meeting. minimum, if nothing else, raise the issues directly to the minister's attention in the hopes that the minister will D. Routley: I just would like to correct a few facts in represent their point of view at these negotiations. a question that I asked earlier to the minister, and they were related to the Island Coastal Economic Trust and Hon. P. Bell: I'd be happy to do that. the E&N Railway. 6710 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

In fact, the trust has received applications for improve- services like language and music lessons; contractors; ments to the railway but those have not been funded. landscapers and many more. But I do, however, appreciate the minister's invitation to I'm going to come to the question. Small business lost discuss the issue over coffee, and I do appreciate his in- the PST commission, and that provided $2,400 monthly terest in and appreciation of the railway's importance to to each retailer in return for them acting as the govern- the island. If the minister is still willing, we'll have a cof- ment tax collectors. The amount had been doubled by fee and discuss the E&N Railway. Premier Campbell as part of his ten-point plan to re- spond to the global financial crisis just nine months Hon. P. Bell: My dance calendar continues to fill up. before the HST was announced. I'd be happy to. So my question to the minister is this. Can the min- ister tell us how much annual commission was given to J. Brar: Madam Chair, first of all, my sincere and of- the small business community to collect PST? ficial congratulations to you on your new role, and I'm very certain that you will do very well in that role. Hon. P. Bell: I remember, actually, that one of the My role is to ask questions in this estimates de- early meetings I did over the HST after it was - an bate regarding a small business piece. I just want to nounced, but before it was implemented, was with the put on the record that small business used to be a Prince George Chamber of Commerce. They had ex- stand-alone ministry but not any more. Small busi- pressed some concerns initially about it and wanted ness did not even make the title of the ministry this more information. time somehow. So I sat down with them, and one of the individuals On page 18 of the service plan, there is a reference at that meeting actually owned a small computer store. to small business which basically states under objective She was very concerned about the HST and said that 2.3: "Create a business climate that supports small busi- she wasn't supportive of it. I didn't actually know what ness and encourages economic development." I would business she had at the time. So I asked her, and she ex- like to ask a question related to that area. plained that it was this small computer store. I asked her [1655] who her primary customers were. She said, well, she I would like to start with the impact of HST on the dealt mainly with car dealerships. That was her usual small business community. The impact of HST on the customer base. small business community is huge. This government So I said: "Well, actually, I think HST is probably a has failed to address that issue and completely failed to great news story for you because your computers just consult with the small business community before im- got 7 percent cheaper. Because although you'll have to plementing the HST onto them. charge HST in place of PST, which would be the same The HST, as we know, has created winners and losers, price as previously paid under the old system, the car and the winners are very clear. Those people are friends dealership will be able to use that HST as an input tax of the B.C. Liberal Party and big business and the cor- credit. The car dealership will likely refresh their com- porations, because it's a tax shift of $2 billion from the puters more frequently, be in a position to purchase big businesses to the consumers of B.C. and the small higher grade models and ensure that they are able to business community. maintain the level of technology." Just to put on the record, the big businesses save a lot Once she discovered that, she immediately changed of money out of HST. Tax savings are estimated at $880 her mind and was very supportive. That's just one per- million for the construction industry, $140 million for sonal example I can provide of a local small business in the manufacturing, $210 million for the transportation Prince George. I think they employ three or four people, industry, $140 million for the forestry sector, and $80 a very good example of a company. That is an absolute million for mining and oil and gas. real-life story because I recall the discussion like it was Then there's a list of losers, which is the long one. yesterday. The first people are the consumers, the people of B.C., [1700] because now they have to pay 7 percent additional tax The member opposite asked the question about the on a range of new goods and services that were previ- commission paid to small businesses under the pre- ously PST-exempt. vious PST system, and I actually have some personal I would like to come back to the small business com- experience with this. The member opposite will know munity. It is very important to note that small businesses that I still continue to have an interest in a few restau- that provide domestic services are big losers as well. rants. When I was actually physically involved in the These are the businesses that will now have to charge restaurants, one of the things that used to drive my wife 7 percent additional tax. Examples include restaurants; absolutely nuts was the paperwork involved in filling accommodation and tourism operators; beauty, health out the PST submission form each month. Although and fitness services like salons and gyms; education she got a commission — I forget what it was; it was like Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6711

15 bucks or something that she got — I think it meant Hon. P. Bell: So I did hear it correctly, $40 million to she was making $3 an hour for the amount of work that $50 million. I do know that the analysis indicates that it actually took to fill out the form and make sure it was the savings to small business as a result of not having to accurately submitted. administer the PST is about $150 million. That would I will admit that my wife is studious. She makes sure confirm what my wife told me, which is that she was that everything is done impeccably and has proven that getting paid about $3 an hour for the work that the PST consistently over the blissful 33 years of marriage that system was costing her. In fact, I think there's a pretty we've shared together. good return on investment for small business in that The point is that the commission rate that was pro- area, so I think it is more than defendable. vided to small businesses was not a source of income. It The member opposite should know — he's been a was payment for a cost that we were imposing. Typically member of the House now for, I think, about seven they weren't being paid very well for the cost that was or eight years perhaps — that tax policy is something associated with it. that always has to be held in confidence prior to im- Now that we've moved to the harmonized sales tax plementation. If the member opposite wants to discuss system, my wife does exactly the same work as she did the consultation for tax policy, that would be more ap- previously for the GST. So there was no incremental propriately done under the estimates of the Minister of work that was imposed on her. In fact, she was relieved Finance. of the issue of having to fill out the PST documents on a regular basis and submitting them for a very small J. Brar: I think one of the roles this minister has, and amount of money. this is part of the service plan, is to consult with the busi- While we do not have the information with us here, ness community, the small business community. That's his specific role, part of this service plan. I'm sure that the Minister of Finance, during his esti- I'm asking this specific question. Did you do your job mates, would be able to provide the amount of money asking the small business community about this huge that was provided to small business as a PST commis- tax policy change, which is to the HST from the PST? If sion, as the member opposite refers to it. I don't think there was no consultation, the minister can say so. But that is the correct title. I think it was your job, Minister, to talk to the business There are many stories about HST, and if the member community under your role because that is part of your would like to spend the next hour talking about them, role under this ministry. I'd be happy to do that. [1705] I would like to give one more opportunity to the min- J. Brar: Thanks for sharing the story of your wife. ister as to whether there were any specific consultations My question was very simple: the amount of money with the small business community before implementing which was paid to the small business people for col- the HST or not. lecting PST. I would appreciate the minister keeping on time — we have a very limited time window because we Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite, I guess, is per- have a very short session; we don't have the regular time haps a slow learner and hasn't figured out who does what to get into those kinds of discussions — to be precise job in government. The Finance Minister clearly has re- and to be specific to the question. sponsibility for tax policy. I stated that in my previous So the minister doesn't know how much money ac- comments. The member opposite tries to somehow sug- tually was paid to the small business community. My gest that that's my responsibility. That's not the case. understanding is, and the minister can confirm or later What I can tell the member is the Small Business check, that the amount paid to the small business com- Roundtable continuously brought up the issue of mov- munity was between $40 million and $50 million. That ing to a harmonized sales tax system. But tax policy was the amount paid to the small business community is the responsibility of the Ministry of Finance. The to collect the PST. Ministry of Finance would be the agency that would My question to the minister will be: was there any be best equipped and most appropriately designated to consultation that took place with the small business com- consult on that policy. munity before bringing in HST about this impact? J. Brar: Now at least we have a little confession there Hon. P. Bell: I think I heard $50 million was identi- that the Small Business Roundtable continuously talked fied by the member opposite in terms of the amount of about this, and that's part of the ministry under the money that was provided to small businesses. I'm not minister — right? sure if I heard that number correctly. So there is $40 million to $50 million that was paid to the small business community under the PST sys- J. Brar: From $40 million to $50 million. tem. As soon as the HST was introduced, that money 6712 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011 was withdrawn. I would like to ask the minister: how cash flow as a result of the HST. I don't know whether was this tax a revenue-neutral tax from a small business the minister will be interested in responding to this point of view? You were paying them $40 million, $50 question or not. million under the PST system, but that money is not be- [1710] ing paid any more under the HST system. The introduction of the HST has created huge cash flow problems for many small business communities. Hon. P. Bell: I have offered the greatest of latitude to Under the PST system most business inputs were ex- all members of the opposition through this estimates empt at the point of sale. In other words, they were not process. That question directly relates to the Minister of required to pay the PST when they used to buy their in- Finance and would be most appropriately asked of that ventory. For example, a bar or restaurant would go to a minister. liquor distribution branch with their liquor licence and purchase their liquor PST-free. J. Brar: Once again, okay, I would like to basically read Now they have to pay 12 percent HST up front, at the from today's newspaper. The minister has been talking beginning, and will not receive that money back until about the benefits of theH ST to the small business com- perhaps a year later when they file their taxes and claim munity. This is today's newspaper, Madam Speaker. This their input tax credits. That has created a huge problem is in the , and it states: "Nearly nine out for many small businesses, because they don't have ex- of ten restaurants in B.C. have seen sales drop since the tra money. introduction of the HST and new drinking and driving I would like to ask if the minister has done a study or penalties, according to a survey done by the Canadian has, again, consulted the small business community on Restaurant and Foodservices Association." the impact of HST on the cash flow problem of the small Nine out of ten restaurants — 90 percent of restau- business community. rants — have experienced a drop in sales as a result of the HST. That was the survey done by one of the Hon. P. Bell: You know, I find the member's analysis largest small business communities in the province. I almost unbelievable, having been in business person- would like to ask the minister what his response is to ally for 22 years myself and many more years working this survey. Does the minister agree or disagree with corporately. these findings? HST for the vast majority of businesses will have the exact opposite impact because they will be collecting Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite refers to some HST on sales. That HST on sales goes into their bank comments by Mark von Schellwitz, I believe, of the B.C. account. Most businesses…. The restaurant business, Restaurant and Foodservices Association. His com- the one that I've been involved in, typically operates ments specifically were that since the application of on terms of anywhere from two to four weeks prior to two new policies — one is the HST; the other is the .05 having to pay their core suppliers, and their employees drinking regulations — in his view, 90 percent of restau- typically two to three weeks, depending on their pay- rants have seen some sort of revenue decline. roll cycles, as funds accumulate in their account and are I can also suggest to the member opposite that he only paid out monthly. review the independent panel report that was released The member opposite perhaps needs to go to some yesterday. There's a graph in that report — I forget what of his economist friends in the NDP and figure that out page, but I think it was around page 11 or 12 or 13 — because, if anything, the vast majority of businesses that shows that in fact restaurant sales year over year as will be further ahead with the HST from a cash flow a result of HST relative to 2010 are level. perspective.

J. Brar: I would like to verbally add one more stat J. Brar: Thanks for the lesson from the minister. This that I have when it comes to the independent panel. is what the small business community is saying, and the The independent panel stated very clearly again…. minister is saying there's no impact. This is today's newspaper. It says that particularly the I think it's very clear that under the PST system — and number of jobs which were projected by this govern- the minister should say if I'm wrong — when they used to ment was 113,000 jobs, but now they are saying the go and buy stuff, it was PST-exempt at the point of sale. But number of jobs out of this could be only 24,000 jobs. now they have to pay HST at the beginning, at the point This is a huge variation between these two, the- pre of sale, which they will get back after a year, almost. Many diction of the government and the prediction of the small businesses cannot afford to pay that at the beginning, independent panel. particularly the restaurant industry, because they buy a lot Anyway, moving from that, Madam Speaker, I would of stuff, and the HST amount is huge for them. like to move on to a new line of questioning under The minister certainly does not see it that way. small business again, and that will be the problem of The minister sees the impact of HST in his own way. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6713

There's a huge list of small businesses in the commun- not agree with their own statements next day. Let me ity which are opposed to the HST. They're saying that read Madam Christy Clark when she was a radio host. this is hard for them, since the HST has been imposed I would like to read, and this is what she said about the on them. HST: "It is an insult to British Columbians for the gov- My question to the minister is simple. Has he consulted ernment to, first of all, have brought in this tax in what — because that's part of his role — or had any consulta- most of us regard as a very, very sneaky way." This is tion with the small business community on the impact of what Madam Clark said when she was on CKNW on cash flow, if any, on them during the last year? July 28, 2010. Another quote. Madam Clark said: "It seems im- Hon. P. Bell: As the member opposite knows, I believe, possible the tax wasn't contemplated before the spring we started the Small Business Roundtable in 2005. That ballot. I just don't think it is possible that that could be continues on today and is a very good contributor and the case." CBC news, August 13, 2009. a sounding board for this ministry and government in Another quote: "If it goes to a referendum, it will the small business community. I'd be happy to provide almost certainly fail." Declared by Christy Clark on the member opposite with a list of the members of the August 8 to kick off her leadership campaign, as written Small Business Roundtable. It also goes out and consults by Vaughn Palmer just today. broadly in the public to get the perspectives of individual Those were the views of Madam Christy Clark when businesses in small communities around the province. she was a radio host. As soon as she became the Premier It's an initiative that we're proud of and that we think has and the leader of the Liberal Party, she started talking provided us with good, sound advice. like . She was in favour of HST. Consistently, prior to the implementation of the It's no wonder that they don't want to agree with me. HST, one of the themes that we heard from the Small They don't agree with their own statements when they Business Roundtable was that one of the biggest things change the next day. This is a flip-flop by PremierC lark we could do to help support small business was the shift on the HST, not one time but many times. That's what to a harmonized sales tax. While there can be differ- I have seen. ences of opinion — I understand that, being someone I will go on to basically ask questions about the Small who continues to have an interest in restaurants — on Business Roundtable, which is part of the ministry as whether or not that works for all businesses, the Small Business Roundtable members continue to support well. I would specifically like to ask the minister: how the model. many Small Business Roundtable consultations were [1715] conducted during the last fiscal year? The contacts I have in the small business community continue to suggest that although there are warts — and Hon. P. Bell: Nine. we look to fix those warts; we look to see what we can do to improve the tax and make sure that it works for J. Brar: So this is very clear in front of you. This min- people — by and large, it is doing what it is intended to ister just said a few minutes ago that there were ongoing do and helping support B.C.'s growth. consultations with the small business community about It's something that we support, something that we be- the HST. The HST was introduced last year, announced lieve makes a tremendous amount of sense. I do know last year, and now the minister is telling me that the and understand what the opposition member's position Small Business Roundtable — the purpose of which is is on the harmonized sales tax. While I respectfully dis- basically to consult the small business community — agree with his view on the tax, I do think he certainly is did not take place at all. That's what…. not reflecting the feelings of many of the individuals in the small business community. Hon. P. Bell: Nine.

J. Brar: The minister has the right to disagree with J. Brar: You said nine or none? my position, but I want to tell you that this has been the position of the Liberal Party. This is the Liberal Party Hon. P. Bell: Nine. who said to the people of British Columbia that they had no plans to impose HST before the election. But as J. Brar: Okay. My mistake, then. Nine. I appreciate soon as the elections were over, they in fact announced that. If that happened, then I would like to ask…. Sorry the HST. It was later revealed that the government was for my comments. I would like to ask the minister, then: considering the HST in the months leading to the 2009 was there any discussion in those consultations about elections. That was clear from those documents. the impact of HST? If that was the case, what were those But more interestingly, it's not news that the minister discussions, if the minister can tell us? does not agree with me. The members of this party do [1720] 6714 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Hon. P. Bell: I'm sorry the member opposite heard the Small Business Roundtable report, but he will note "none" and not "nine." So just to make sure the Hansard re- on page 15 that there are specific mentions of HST. It cord is clear, it was nine, which is between eight and ten. could be just that he didn't perhaps get to the end of Anyway, to answer the member opposite's question, the report, but it is there. The minutes for the Small HST did come up from time to time. It didn't dominate Business Roundtable through that period of time in the conversations at the round table. I, of course, have which the HST was being brought forward have already recently gained responsibility for the portfolio, so I'm been tabled. basing this on information provided to me by staff. I'm advised that some of the top items that did come J. Brar: Page 15 of the report: 2010 or 2011? Are you up at round tables were things like training initiatives, talking about the report of October 2010 or 2011? the regulatory environment involving three levels of government — so not necessarily specifically focused at Hon. P. Bell: The report I'm referring to is the one the province but overlap. The need to have a competitive dated October 2010. tax regime was one of the key elements — making sure that we had competitive taxes available. J. Brar: I will come back to that. Probably I need to Then, from my understanding, from there it fell down look at that. to more local issues. So if it was in Quesnel, probably Just to continue on that. On page 15 of the Small pine beetle would have come up. If it was in Coquitlam, Business Roundtable annual report there is also an issue it might have been another issue. of credit card practice. There was a recommendation The top three issues, I think, were training, the regu- made under that annual report to the minister by the latory environment that's associated with having three Small Business Roundtable "to advocate on behalf of levels of government that small businesses have to work small business and encourage the federal government with and the importance of having a competitive tax re- to ensure credit card practices are fair to small busi- gime at all levels of government. nesses." So I would like to ask the minister if there was any follow-up done or if there are any plans to do any J. Brar: I appreciate the answer, and I understand that follow-up on that one. the minister took this file only probably a month ago, but the ministry was there before. Hon. P. Bell: Sorry, we were just looking for the actual I would like to ask if there were any specific directions, reference in the document. We didn't see it on page 15 because this is a huge tax-shift policy, given by the minis- so it could be our pages are numbered differently than ter — which is the previous minister, of course — to the the member opposite's document. Small Business Roundtable to have consultation with the But the answer to the question is: yes, we have been small business community about the impact of HST. Were dealing with the federal government on the issue. there any directions provided by the minister or not? J. Brar: I heard the minister saying that yes, some Hon. P. Bell: As I previously stated, consultations steps have been taken. Can the minister elaborate a bit with regards to the HST, regardless of what sector — on that? whether it was any or all of the small business sector, forest sector, mining sector, all of the different sectors — Hon. P. Bell: I am advised that in fact my previous were the responsibility of the Ministry of Finance, and answer was incorrect, that there was no approach to the questions of that nature would best be answered in that federal government. The reason for that was because estimates period. we were aware that the federal government was already dealing with the issue to do with credit card fairness. J. Brar: I have this Small Business Roundtable annual The issue was not dealt with, but we were aware that report, which is in front of me, and there's no reference at it was in the process of being dealt with at the federal all to HST in this one. This is quite a long report. There's government level so it wasn't necessary for us to move absolutely no reference at all. So I would ask the minister forward on it. — I am sure that there will be some sort of minutes taken at the Small Business Roundtable — if the minister can J. Brar: Again keeping on time. I appreciate the short agree today to table those minutes of those meetings. If answers by the minister, finally. The other is also part of there is any reference, that must be part of the minutes the annual report. It's a relatively simple question. and the record of the Small Business Roundtable. [1730] [1725] There's a reference made in the fifth annual report of the Small Business Roundtable, which we are talking Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite is again wrong. It about. It states on page 15 — the page number may be could be that he just didn't have time to actually read wrong: "By April 2012 the tax will be eliminated." This Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6715

means, basically, the small business tax will be com- haps you can have negative tax and go to minus 1 or pletely eliminated. minus 2 percent. Keeping in mind the uncertainty around the HST, for I do know that his leader is specifically advocating for which there will be a pending referendum…. The people a 4½ percent tax rate. The member opposite may not of B.C. may decide to scrap the HST. This would mean have heard that. It could be that he missed that caucus that this government might have to give back about meeting, but my understanding is the opposition leader $1.6 billion to the federal government, which they re- is pretty clearly on the record of increasing small busi- ceived to sign the agreement. So keeping in mind those ness tax back to 4½ percent. realities or possibilities, I just want to ask: how certain This government is going to zero percent, and that is the minister that the small business tax will be elim- is our commitment. The member opposite seems to be inated by 2012? struggling with that concept, but I think that if he pre- tends to suggest to the small business world or the rest of Hon. P. Bell: Unlike the member opposite, we do be- the business world that the NDP are their friends, they lieve that we need to have the lowest small business taxes. will not be fooled by those statements. I know the member opposite's leader has a different pos- [1735] ition on that and, as I understand it, has prescribed a model that would lead to increasing small business J. Brar: Go and ask the restaurant industry. Go and taxes in the order of 80 percent or so. But the Finance ask the construction industry what they think about Minister has been clear on this issue in all of his public this government — you know? This is a $2 billion tax commentary — that we will be moving to no small busi- shift, and this is the report today. Nine out of ten busi- ness tax by 2012. nesses lost their sales because of the HST. This is today's newspaper. J. Brar: I didn't ask a question about the corporate tax, but the minister certainly wanted to reference that. Interjections. I want to put on the record, as well, that the corpora- tions have been given a huge, huge tax cut as compared The Chair:Members, through the Chair, please. to small business communities. There's no match when it comes to that. J. Brar: So go and ask them. The small business tax Then, talk about the HST. It's a tax shift from the under the NDP was the lowest in the country. You still wealthy big corporations to the consumers and a lot of have to go — lowest in the country. the small business community. If the minister doesn't want to agree with that, that's his choice. The restaurant Interjections. industry is an example. The questionI asked about the tax cut. The minister is J. Brar: If the Finance Minister is questioning that, he saying the Minister of Finance is very clear about that. I can stand up and say I'm wrong. It was the lowest in the was reading the service plan of the Ministry of Finance country at that time, but what is happening here is this. as well. The Minister of Finance, I want to put on the The tax is going down, but on the other side there is an record, chooses his words very carefully. What I read in indirect tax put on the people, including the small busi- the service plan — I want to quote that. The Minister ness community. The HST is a prime example. It's $2 of Finance states in the service plan of the Ministry of billion given to big corporations, and it is being shifted Finance: "We also plan to reduce the small business tax to the small business community and the consumers of rate to zero by April 2012." B.C. I think the minister understands that. I will probably continue my line of questioning to…. [L. Reid in the chair.] This one program called Junior Achievement of B.C. is part of this ministry. I would like to ask the minis- The word used is "plan," so that does not make it cer- ter: how much funding is allocated this fiscal year to tain. That's whyI asked the minister responsible for this deliver the Junior Achievement B.C. program to the ministry if that is certain and if there's any rethinking school districts? If the minister can provide some de- going on about this tax, if that's the case under the new tails on that. realities. Hon. P. Bell: We did recently receive a funding request Hon. P. Bell: It sounds pretty clear to me that the from Junior Achievement, and we are now considering minister intends to move forward and reduce the tax to that request. zero. I do know that the member opposite says that we haven't done as much for small business, on tax, as we J. Brar: I would take it that there's no funding alloca- have on corporations. Actually, in an NDP world per- tion for this fiscal year at this point in time, and it may be 6716 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

in the application process. My understanding is that this We received from the Canadian Federation of In- funding is provided to school districts as per the annual dependent Business…. This is a kind of survey conducted report of the round table, so I'm not aware if there's any by them. A large number of their membership has re- application process for that or if this funding is given to sponded to the survey. school boards by the minister's office. One of the questions on this survey is the question So if there's an application process, can the minister that small businesses pay, on average, three times what tell us how much time the process will take, and is there a resident pays. It will soon be five times more without any consideration to increase the funding or reduce the a cap. That's one of the things on this survey. I think funding to this program this fiscal year? the Canadian Federation of Independent Business probably must have provided a copy to the minister's Hon. P. Bell: I can advise the member that there was office as well. no funding provided to this organization in either '09-10 They are asking for some actions from the government or in '10-11. But we have recently received an application, on this issue, and I will repeat that their main concern is and we are considering that application at this time. that small businesses pay, on average, three times what a resident pays. We're talking about property tax. It will J. Brar: How much time will it take to basically pro- soon be five times more without a cap. cess the application? I understand it's a civic responsibility, but they are [1740] certainly looking for some help from the provincial gov- ernment, if there's any. So I would like to ask the minister Hon. P. Bell: There is not a formalized process. The if the minister has received this copy of the survey and if application is in the form of a letter of request. It's not a the minister planned to do anything on this question. regular funded program or program that has specific time- [1745] lines around it. Staff are speaking with JuniorA chievement, looking to see if it does meet some of the goals or object- Hon. P. Bell: I think I just heard another policy pos- ives of the ministry and, if it does, what funding envelope ition from the NDP, which is that in fact the provincial that would be funded out of. So I'm unable at this point in government should mandate caps to municipal taxation time to provide the member with an idea of when it may for businesses. I don't know whether the member oppos- be either considered or, alternatively, denied. ite wants to expand that same commitment to industry, but I'll make sure we add that to the very small list of J. Brar: Thanks for the answer.I will follow up, maybe policy commitments that we've found from the NDP. It's later on, on that one. interesting, and I'm sure communities will want to know There's another program, part of the ministry. It's the that the critic is advocating for a cap to be imposed upon workplace training-for-innovation pilot program, which municipalities, on their small business tax rates. is also part of the ministry. This program is designated I will, for the member opposite, read into the record to provide eligible employers with funding for employee our Premier Christy Clark's commitment on munici- training and has been well received by the small busi- pal taxation. ness community, as per the report. "Municipal governments play a vital role in creating a sense of community and ensuring families have the services and amen- I would like to ask the minister: how much funding, ities they need to flourish. We need to look at the competition again, is allocated for this fiscal year for the workplace between commercial, industrial and residential taxation — the training-for-innovation pilot program, if there is any? role local government is playing — and find ways to make sure the taxpayer is being well-served. "Our government will: create an Office of the Municipal Aud- Hon. P. Bell: I'd just ask that the member repeat the itor General; fund the office as part of the Auditor General's name of the program he's referring to. office — the office will provide advice on financial decisions and provide a measure of accountability; review the municipal taxa- J. Brar: It's called workplace training-for-innovation tion formula; and work with the Union of B.C. Municipalities to ensure that municipalities are properly funded and communities pilot program. can provide the services that British Columbians want from local government." Hon. P. Bell: The assistant deputy minister who has responsibility for that particular initiative isn't here at J. Brar: I would like to conclude by saying thanks to this time, so I would suggest to the member that we'd the minister for the interesting answers. This is a long be prepared to provide him an answer to that question survey done by the Canadian Federation of Independent in writing. Business. They gave us the copies to ask you questions, and I hope you got the copy as well. I would certainly ex- J. Brar: Thanks for the answer again. I will expect pect the answers to some of the questions where the staff that the answer will be given later on, on this particular was not available or the information was not available to question. the minister at this point in time. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6717

With that, I would like to say thanks to the minis- to both of those areas. That is not similar to the data that ter and thanks to the staff members for the answers. I we have seen from other avenues, which indicate, actually, would now hand it back to my colleagues for the next the sales are about level to what the Canadian industry line of questions. would be compared to last year at this time.

J. Kwan: I'm going to ask the minister, actually, some J. Kwan: I see the Speaker is in the House, so I am go- questions around the small business sector. I wonder ing to wrap up with this last comment and question to if the minister could tell us if he's seen the latest re- the minister. I fully understand that we don't have time port or survey done by the Canadian Restaurant and to fully canvass this area, and I also understand this was Foodservices Association around the impacts of the not the minister at the time when the .05 policy was HST, the impacts of the liquor licensing changes that brought in play. took place for the restaurant businesses. That said, though, there is the Small Business Roundtable. One would have assumed that with a gov- Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite forgets that I've ernment that likes to tout their consultative approaches, been in the industry for a long time. I don't mean the that work would have been done with the small business political industry; I mean the restaurant industry. So I sector, particularly in the restaurant business industries. am aware of the study. I have not physically seen a copy So I wonder if the minister could provide that informa- of it. I know that staff have a copy of it.I look forward to tion to us in full — around what consultation work was spending my weekend looking through it, but I've seen done, who was consulted and what the response was Mark von Schellwitz's comments as they relate to it. with respect to the .05 policy change. As someone who has a financial interest in the indus- I'd love to enter into debate about the impacts of the try, I'm aware of all of the circumstances, and there are HST for the restaurant and foodservices sector, but some very positive stories out there as well. we don't have time for that. I think the survey speaks for itself, and yes, it is a combined implication of both J. Kwan: I haven't seen the report in its full detail. I just the HST and the .05 alcohol policy change. That said, received it a little while ago. Looking through it, some though, it is hitting the restaurant and food services in- 87 percent of the businesses actually said that sales had dropped since the HST was implemented back in July. dustry hard. There's no doubt about it, but we'll save that Now, of course, they also say that the dropped rate of debate for another day. decline in terms of businesses for them is at about 15 per- cent. Then where there are liquor licence establishments, Hon. P. Bell: Noting the time and the urgency on it's at about a 21 percent decline because of the govern- some people's part to make ferries and so on, I will take ment's policy change around liquor licensing. the opportunity to advise the Solicitor General of the I think there are tremendous impacts here. I know member opposite's keen interest in this issue. Between that the minister and the government like to talk about the Solicitor General and myself, we will ensure that the positive stories. But of course, for a lot of these small busi- member gets the answer to her question. nesses — and many of them are in the restaurant sector, as the minister knows — the impacts are tremendous. Vote 33: ministry operations, $236,513,000 — ap- I won't plug the franchise which the minister, I think, proved. owns, but we'll talk about that another time. [1750] Hon. P. Bell: With that, I would like to move that we Now, I'm interested in this. We've canvassed the HST rise, report completion of the estimates of the Ministry issue at length, but I want to ask the minister this ques- of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation, and seek leave to sit tion. What work was done around the Small Business again. Roundtable with respect to the policy change that was brought in place relating to the liquor issue? Motion approved.

Hon. P. Bell: That was before my time in this portfolio, The committee rose at 5:53 p.m. so I don't think that in the time remaining I'll be able to answer the question. But I think the member could feel The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. free to bring that issue up under the Solicitor General. I know there would be time set aside for that. Committee of Supply (Section B), having reported I will say just very quickly, with regards to the B.C. resolution, was granted leave to sit again. Restaurant Association report, that it's important to note that they were referring to two policy decisions — both Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported .05 and HST. The sales reduction reference is pertaining resolutions, was granted leave to sit again. 6718 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Hon. R. Coleman moved adjournment of the House. a risk to the environment. That's, again, an area that's not within the Ministry of Agriculture. I'm not the best Motion approved. to answer that. At this stage I'm very pleased that the community of Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 Comox Valley and beyond has been able to actually put a.m. Monday morning. forward their concerns and questions, and they're in the process of receiving answers. One thing I'm very proud The House adjourned at 5:54 p.m. about the Comox Valley is that the citizens are very, very much engaged. We value Baynes Sound — incredibly so. It is absolutely PROCEEDINGS IN THE a jewel in this province. At the same time, you know what? DOUGLAS FIR ROOM We don't actually have, in government, the ability to say no to specific projects before they're even before us. Committee of Supply For that reason, I'm just going to let the process go for- ward, and I trust that the proposer of the coal mine is ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE going to do everything in their power to listen to the con- (continued) cerns of the community, address them accordingly. [1440] The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. If it goes to the environmental assessment phase, well, Horne in the chair. that's something that perhaps you should talk about with the Minister of Environment. The committee met at 2:37 p.m. M. Sather: That's excellent — 700 community ques- On Vote 14: ministry operations, $52,297,000 (con- tions. Obviously, the minister does live in a community tinued). that is very engaged in issues that are important to them, like this obviously is. Does the minister have — and M. Sather: It's my pleasure to join the estimates I realize that it's not his portfolio but just to finish off debates for the Ministry of Agriculture. I'm the oppos- — any idea of a ballpark figure, if it goes to the environ- ition critic for fisheries, soI wanted to ask the minister, mental assessment, of when that might be? obviously, some questions about aquaculture and re- lated issues. Hon. D. McRae: The short answer is, of course, no. I just wanted to start with…. I heard the minister It's at the stage of when the proponent feels, I guess, that speak recently in the House today about the shellfish they've met a certain test, that they can make the deci- issue. He's a strong proponent of our shellfish indus- sion to go to that next stage — but again, an area that's try, and that's excellent. I did want to ask him for a not in my ministry. little clarification around that issue with regard to a I like the fact that whether it is aquaculture or other proposed coal mine — Raven coal mine as it's called. investment in our province, obviously it's really import- Does the minister think that there is any possibility for ant that we do have jobs. damage to the shellfish industry if that proposal were This is a prime example. In the Comox Valley just to go ahead? recently…. I don't want to talk about the benefits of big-box retailers, but Costco is coming to our commun- Hon. D. McRae: Sorry about this, but I was remiss. I ity. When they're coming, obviously they need to hire. forgot to introduce again my staff who are here with me So they had a job fair. Well, my understanding is that today. We have Wes Shoemaker. We have Grant Parnell, the jobs pay between $11 and $17 an hour. Over 1,000 Lindsay Kislock and, again, Denise Bragg. Thank you all people lined up on a Saturday, because there's an inter- very much for joining us today. est for employment. You know, right now we're in the pre-environmental At the same time, I'm not saying employment comes assessment stage in regards to Compliance Coal, Raven at any cost. But the reality is that I'm heartened in coal. It's incredibly thorough. They've already taken in British Columbia and around the province that people over 700 community questions from local government have the ability to put forward ideas that they think and taxpayers that they are responding to. are going to basically create employment for families At this stage I don't want to prejudge the outcome in this province. and whether they're going to choose to go into the en- As for whether this process is going to be approved or vironmental assessment phase. But I think the whole not, you know what? Your ability to look into the future idea of the environmental assessment stage, which I is just as good as mine. I don't want to, again, prejudge think is very comprehensive, is to determine if there is the process. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6719

M. Sather: So not about this project but in general…. M. Sather: Well, I appreciate the minister's commit- The minister talked about having to balance the -inter ment and desire that people in his constituency, as it turns ests of…. Well, in effect, we're talking that it can be two out, have the best possibility to get the best information. industries. This is not a conservation issue per se alone. Now, it was brought up before about an independent It's obviously…. All of them are. I mean, any kind — not expert review panel with public hearings as one way to just this one, but any one. do that. You know, it's a less contentious environment So how does the minister deal with that? He talked here than it is in the House when we're doing question about balancing, okay, a proposal for a development period. I just wondered, on that specific issue, then, if versus, in the case of what we're talking about here, the the minister had an opinion on that. shellfish industry.H ow does he then balance those kinds of competing interests? Hon. D. McRae: That issue has been raised to me Obviously, he has a strong interest in job creation — by some constituents. I've made requests for informa- that's good — but he also has a responsibility to protect tion from the Ministry of Environment, but I'm not too the shellfish industry. Just curious to know how he goes familiar with the independent panel review. It's not my about balancing that out and fulfilling his duties at the ministry, obviously. I haven't received back a formal an- same time? swer to that, but I'm looking into it. Again, I look into it as an MLA, but it's the Minister of Environment, ob- Hon. D. McRae: Obviously, the member opposite viously, who makes that decision. knows that I am both the MLA for Comox Valley but also a member of the executive council and Minister of M. Sather: Moving to another area, the minister will Agriculture. The reality is…. Let's look at the import- be aware that there's been lots of controversy in British ance of aquaculture to the Comox Valley. The dollar Columbia around fish farms. There've been issues value — whether it's $24 million or $28 million, put it brought up over the years with regard to sea lice on fish in that range. That is sustainable jobs and a sustainable and what effect that might have on our fish; sea lice as it resource. If it's managed effectively, those jobs and that relates to their propagation, I guess you could say, in fish resource will be there for perpetuity. That is obviously farms; and also around issues of some pretty significant a hugely important thing. viruses that may be in fish farms as well. The Comox Valley, in the past, was known for coal. I just wondered. In his role in his ministry to market You might have heard of the village of Cumberland. — in this case, salmon — how do issues like this affect There was a strong tradition of coal mining in the com- the ability of the minister and the government to market munity. But you know what? I would say equally in the salmon both within and beyond our borders? last 15 years that when you think of Comox Valley, you think of the aquaculture industry. Hon. D. McRae: I'm sure the member opposite ob- I don't want to do anything as Minister of Agriculture viously knows that fish health is under the purview of the that would imperil that industry. It is absolutely essential. DFO, so when it comes to this ministry, we don't have It is fundamental in terms of creating employment. For direct say on that one. It's a federal issue. I'm sure you're those reasons, if there's a concern raised by a constitu- aware of that and are doing your investigations there. ent, I don't play favourites. I do my best. When people I guess the key underlying message we want to leave are concerned about the coal mine or they like the coal with you for reassurance is that we're so devoted to mine, and there's basically an answer they need, I do my having a healthy, sustainable industry. That's abso- very best to answer it. lutely key. And like you also mentioned, basically the If there are people they wish to talk to, I do my best role of our ministry under the rules that we have now to try to organize those meetings. Some are out of my is market and innovation. control. The reality is, I'm not playing favourites here. [1450] I want people to have the best information possible to You know, it's important that we promote the industry, make those decisions and make sure that their concerns by all means. It's our biggest agriculture export in this are heard. province. It is absolutely essential, and it's something that [1445] we are world-famous for. We have a world-renowned Again, I'll fall back on that the community has been in- product. I'm proud of it, and it's something that I want credibly engaging in this issue. It's important to them, by to make sure is sustainable. all means. I'm looking forward to seeing the answers to those 700-plus questions that have been forwarded. M. Sather: These questions must come up when, I don't want anybody to have any illusions. The aqua- obviously, the industry is marketing throughout the culture industry in Baynes Sound is absolutely essential world or that part of the world that is interested in our to the Comox Valley in this province. It is just a jewel product. So when they would get, I expect, some blow of an industry. back, if you want, or some opposition from some quar- 6720 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

ters about sustainable practices, let's say at fish farms, around the world, for the benefit of families and jobs is the ministry able to assist them in any way? Or how in this province. do you handle that? The other thing we're proud of is that we work with industry in regards to eco-certification. You're probably Hon. D. McRae: Again, fish health falls under the fed- familiar with the Marine Stewardship Council, MSC, eral government. But I can assure the member opposite which is world-recognized and, again, helps us brand that, in either my capacity as MLA or minister — and, British Columbia and British Columbia product in an I'm sure, the staffers in the Ministry of Agriculture or incredibly powerful way. any government ministry — if there's an issue raised, we Furthermore, we also have our ever-popular — and I wouldn't leave it in our silo. We would share that infor- think the member opposite just recently received one — mation with the federal government. British Columbia Seafood Industry Year in Review, a very, You know, we can't tell them how to act and what to very popular document with the industry. We have it on act on, but we're not going to have a scenario where our good authority that when they are out marketing B.C. knowledge is going to be held in a secret lockbox in a product, this is something they take with them every- corner and not shared. where they go, and it's a very valuable resource. I was recently up in the member for North Island's rid- Again, we're committed to working with the aquacul- ing looking at a fish farm, andI was very, very impressed ture industry and making sure that those jobs and best just how committed the farm I was at was to basically practices are there. protecting fish health when I was there. I don't want to call it security, but I thought the health safeguards were The Chair: While I'm sure it's a fine document, phenomenal. They took it very seriously. When I took Minister, I'd remind that the use of props in the House one step without getting my feet wet in the dip basket is not allowed. there, they didn't let me put my foot down. They were very, very cognizant that fish health is hugely important Hon. D. McRae: My apologies. I was just pretty to them, just like it is to all members of this ministry. excited.

The Chair: Well, I'm sure that the minister and mem- M. Sather: I am glad the minister brought up marine ber are both very concerned about this area. I'd hope eco-certification.I was going to ask him about that later. that we could pull back to the question before this com- Then you mentioned Mary Ann Walling from the fish mittee, and I know that the member will do that. farmers association. Is the ministry able to help with that or give some M. Sather: What fish farm did the minister have the information about how they go about getting that cer- good luck to visit? tification or making linkages for them? What can the ministry do? What do they do? Hon. D. McRae: Can I get back to you on the name [1500] of it? It was Conville Bay off the east coast of Quadra Island. I know that the member to the right was born on Hon. D. McRae: Obviously, you probably know that Quadra Island and probably knows her bays better than ministry staff are involved with the stewardship council I do. My apologies — it was about a month ago. But if in promoting B.C. product. A staffer, Barron Carswell, is you really wish to know the company and the farm that currently, as we speak, working incredibly long hours in I visited, I'm more than willing to provide that. I think Brussels promoting B.C. seafood and our brand not just to it would be rude of me to sit here with my BlackBerry the North American market but to the world market. The and go looking to make sure that I…. But I could, if you idea is, of course, to grow the industry and allow, basically, would like, and if the Chair would like. more individuals to work and to promote British Columbia product on the world stage. I'm very proud of it. M. Sather: Back to marketing, specifically, though. Does the aquaculture industry ask the ministry for sup- M. Sather: That sounds interesting. I think that's the port in marketing? gentleman that I read about that tried out the sardines [1455] but didn't think that much of them. But that's okay. It's an acquired taste, I'm sure. Maybe I'll get to ask the min- Hon. D. McRae: A couple of issues. Just the other ister about that later. day I was in a meeting and I didn't have the opportunity, Specifically, though, on the marine certification, eco- but Mary Ellen Walling was visiting my office and talk- certification, is there anything that the ministry is doing, ing to some of my staff about what we can do in terms or perhaps the gentleman that the minister mentioned of having a relationship and being effective partners in is doing when he's over there, to assist in that regard for promoting B.C. product, not just in this province but the industry? Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6721

Hon. D. McRae: Barron Carswell's role as he is in Charlottes when I was young and didn't get seasick, al- Brussels right now is basically to promote B.C. seafood. though I felt a little nauseous a time or two. Of course, the MSC eco-certification is just a huge as- pect of promoting our quality product and giving our Hon. D. McRae: It's common. customers and our future customers the certainty that what they're buying is not only good-tasting but also M. Sather: Yeah. good for the environment. So how much money, then, does the provincial gov- ernment spend on marketing salmon? M. Sather: The minister has mentioned the sus- tainability issue, also, in his visit to the fish farm and [D. Hayer in the chair.] found that it was, in his view, very sustainable. I hope that's correct. Hon. D. McRae: At this stage the ministry hasn't One of the things that…. I know that there's been asked us to play a significant role in the marketing world. a transmission of power in terms of some of the roles At this time, very fiscally prudent, we have no actual around management of fish farms more to the federal physical marketing budget per se to actually sell the in- government, but there are a lot of health records out- dustry. That's more within their purview. standing for fish farms. I wonder if the minister would But we do actually provide supports like staff and commit to making those public. their expertise. An example is we have, again, ministry employee Barron Carswell, who is travelling, as well, to Hon. D. McRae: Obviously, the member opposite help promote. We have some minor supports, like our knows that fish health is now with the FOD . But, you favourite 2009 B.C. Seafood Industry Year in Review know, before my time…. I'm also proud that the min- document, which we can use. At this stage the industry istry, when we were responsible, produced reports on has not asked for dollars, but you know, they seem very fish health up to 2009, and those reports are even still comfortable with the relationship we have. available on the website. [1505] M. Sather: Sorry, I missed what the minister said But as for accessing information on fish health with about who is doing the marketing then. Which arm of the federal government, I'm still busy learning this government? ministry, and I have yet to learn their challenging DFO world. Hon. D. McRae: I'm proud to say that they're do- ing the marketing. We just provide supports, like I said, M. Sather: Well, my colleague wondered if the farm in terms of staff, sometimes sending staff to travel. We you visited was Cyrus Rocks or Cypress Rocks, owned provide, again, support, but no, there's no funding by Marine Harvest? from an arm of government for specifically marketing the product. Hon. D. McRae: As I think about it and get reminded by staff to my right, it was a farm owned by Grieg M. Sather: How much does the government spend, Seafood, but it was a farm that they actually leased from then, for that kind of staff support? Marine Harvest on the west coast. Again, if you are des- [1510] perate to know the name, it's not a hidden thing. I had a great time. And do you know what? Considering Hon. D. McRae: After extensive consultation with the horrible spring we had, we had one of the nicest days my colleagues behind me…. Because we proportion anyone could ask for to go out on the boat for that day. parts of jobs here and there, it is basically approxi- My adopted grandfather used to run a crew boat. As a mately $300,000 a year in terms of staff, travel and, kid I've seen bad weather, like I'm sure the members op- again, the documents. However, if the member oppos- posite have, on the coast there, and I appreciate every ite would like a more exact number, we're more than good day. Throwing up is not fun when you're a minister, willing to oblige. It would just take a bit of time to just and so far I am 1-for-1 for not. make sure that we're very exact. We don't want to hide Is "throwing up" something I'm allowed to say as a the number by any means. So if that's something you minister, into the Hansard? wish to have, it can be provided. Just give us a couple of days. The Chair:I t's in your hands, Minister. M. Sather: So of that roughly $300,000 of staff support, M. Sather: Well, I probably haven't experienced as how much of that would be committed to supporting much of that rough weather, hailing from Alberta as the fish farm industry versus how much would be sup- a youth, but I did do some fishing out on the Queen porting the wild salmon? 6722 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Hon. D. McRae: I guess the best answer we can Hon. D. McRae: No. She was in my office yesterday. give is that it changes from year to year. I also want to make sure that the member opposite knows that the M. Sather: Okay. So we didn't get a specific answer on seafood industry is obviously much more than just the how much is spent marketing fish farms, but I'd like to fish farm industry — for example, hake and sockeye. know for the record anyway. I'll ask the question again: You mentioned sardines earlier. Albacore tuna is an- how much is spent marketing foreign-owned fish farms other popular one, and, I would argue, one of the ugly in British Columbia? — "ugly" is such an ugly word, so I'll say not pretty — sablefish. Again, they're examples of wild product out Hon. D. McRae: Just for clarity, I think yesterday…. there that we're promoting. Again, it wasn't a conversation that I had; it was second- We mentioned earlier Barron Carswell — whose hand. We had a conversation that we did have a staff name I make sure I never want to say wrong for the re- rep in Brussels. I guess that conversation also was cord — who is in Brussels right now. He is working on shared with Ms. Walling, who didn't know that per- the wild salmon file. We learned — not me but my staff son was there at the time. But I guess she shared with — talking to Mary Ellen Walling yesterday that the fish staff that there were at least…. I think it was four fish farm industry is at the same conference. farm companies from this province over in Brussels You know, I would hope that if they had a question, his as well, but they were sort of in their own different lit- expertise could provide some assistance, that he would tle worlds. I'm sure at the trade show B.C. people will step up as just a person promoting seafood from this gravitate towards each other and find out they're there. province and share that information there. But again, it's Ms. Walling didn't know there was a connection, and not allocated specifically all the time to this one particu- we didn't know either. lar area. It's promoting B.C. seafood. Just for clarity to this specific question, we don't spend any money marketing fish farms, whether they're for- M. Sather: What specifically, then, is Mr. Carswell eign or domestically owned. We just provide supports to doing on the wild salmon file there in Brussels? promote B.C. seafood in a general manner. Like we said [1515] earlier, basically it requires the needs of the industry as they move forward, and it changes from year to year. Hon. D. McRae: Mr. Carswell, as he is in Brussels right now, is promoting the B.C. seafood industry and M. Sather: Well, it seems to me that that's a moot representing British Columbia at a trade show called the point. If the ministry is providing support to assist the European seafood exhibition. I'm sure the member op- industry, then that's assisting them in marketing, as far posite knows that it's not just a big seafood exhibition; as I can see. it is the largest seafood exhibition in the world, dealing Just to ask it one more time though: can the minister with customers not just from Europe, I'm sure, but from not give a breakdown of how much of this support is all continents. Probably Antarctica doesn't send many provided to the fish farm industry in dollars? people; we'll assume that they're not a big buyer. [1520] When he's there, he's meeting with buyers, obviously, consumers and his industry colleagues. But he's basic- Hon. D. McRae: Just to reiterate, we gave an ap- ally there to promote B.C. seafood, not just to Europe proximation at the start of this line of questioning. We but to the world. spend approximately $300,000 on staff, travel, related expenses and the fancy brochure to my left, amongst M. Sather: Would Mr. Carswell's expenses over there other things. be part of the $300,000 that the minister mentioned Again, we don't provide any dollars to the fish farm before? industry. Our staff promotesB .C. seafood as an industry, whether it be wild fish or aquaculture. Hon. D. McRae: I'd like to take a long time to answer One thing the ministry doesn't do today, nor has it that question: yes. done in the past, is break down dollars by specific fish species. But we do help market, basically, over 100 M. Sather: Did Mr. Carswell by any chance travel fish, shellfish, marine plants and the like around not there with Ms. Walling? just this province but beyond, and just, to this stage, with the $300,000. It's just not broken down by fish Hon. D. McRae: Mr. Carswell is there right now. Ms. at this stage. Walling was in my office yesterday. I would assume not. M. Sather: I want to go on to another area. There's an M. Sather: I thought the minister had said that Ms. issue that has gotten a lot of people in British Columbia, Walling was there also. those that are out there fishing, concerned. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6723

The recreational fishermen and the lodge owners are a substantial number of sport fishermen and women. I very concerned about the federal government's 12 per- don't know where you're from and what you call them, cent allotment that they've given them for halibut. It's but we sort of, in a positive manner, call them the tin causing it to be very difficult to plan.A lso, with the catch boaters who like to go out and get their halibut. Even limit, they don't know…. You know, you book a holi- though we call them tin boaters, they often drive about day for the summer, and you don't know if it's…. At a in 26-foot fibreglass boats. certain point, and I don't know when that point is, the Obviously, the commercial side. I've watched with season will be ended. It can spoil your whole holiday interest and had meetings with interest with both — and your prepaid holiday at that. They have a lot of sides of the debate in my office because, obviously, concerns about that. it's important. The commercial individuals…. I'm not The quota is also being held by people, in some cases, going to talk about how they acquired their quota, that don't even fish. They had a huge meeting in Pitt but they've made substantial investments over their Meadows in my constituency about this and in other period of time, by all means, and I think that's well areas of the province, and they feel like this public re- recognized — in their boats and such. It's a very, very source, which they feel is theirs, is being privatized, in dangerous job and provides employment opportun- effect, in this respect. ities up and down the coast. One of the questions that came up in the meeting I At the same time, the tourist benefit that the sport attended was: what is the value of the recreational fish- fishery provides this province is absolutely unbeliev- ery in British Columbia? If the minister could provide able. I don't know if you've ever fished for halibut. My that answer. father is actually one of the well-known worst fishermen on the coast, and that's why halibut is so nice, because Hon. D. McRae: Is this for a specific product?I think, if you actually know where to fish for halibut and you as you were going on that line of questioning, it was don't overfish at that particular time, you know how to very halibut-specific. You didn't say halibut and if you're go out there and get them quite easily. wanting halibut only or if you wish all species. So when I've had individuals in my office, very clearly what I say to them is: when it comes to allocation, this is M. Sather: All species. a federal responsibility. It is not a provincial responsibil- [1525] ity. From an MLA perspective, I want to see a situation where the commercial side of it is very viable. But at the Hon. D. McRae: As much as I like to fish recreation- same time the sport fishing, which provides tons of jobs, ally, unfortunately we tried to get the answer for you even and the recreation side, which provides tons of enjoy- though it's not within our ministry. You know, obviously, ment and food fish and just pleasure fish, is there. we're involved with, again, marketing and innovation. I encouraged my colleague, the MP — I guess I can say I suggest two things. One, I hate to put work on my his name because he's not in our House — John Duncan, colleagues, but the Minister of Jobs — who will be who is also a member of cabinet, to look into this issue, coming up, I'm sure, if not already, in the big House — and I know that he has. I know it's not an easy file, but I may be someone who would have that specific answer. think that, again, it's having that balance, and that bal- Obviously, the DFO would be able to provide that infor- ance is not for this provincial government to determine. mation, I'm sure, very easily. It is a federal issue. However, if you would like this ministry and our staff to provide it, I'm sure we can provide it. We just don't M. Sather: I wanted to ask the minister about trans- have it in our documentation because recreational fish- genic salmon. Those are the genetically modified eries is not under the Ministry of Agriculture. salmon that the firm AquaBounty is promoting. As I understand it, the creatures are injected with some M. Sather: Just one more question, though, on that DNA of west coast chinook and of bottom-dwelling issue. I mean, it is an important issue. I'm sure…. Well, ocean pout, whatever that is. It doesn't sound like any- I would expect, perhaps, that the minister has been ap- thing I'd want to eat. proached and maybe even attended some meetings about that in his constituency or thereabouts. So I just Interjection. wanted to know what his view of that debate around the halibut fishing is. M. Sather: Is that what it is? Okay. [1530] Hon. D. McRae: Fortunately, living on the coast, yes, You know, people call them, perhaps in the deroga- halibut is obviously something that is not just tasty but tory sense, Frankenfish and the like. I just wanted to is hugely important. My understanding is that there are know if the minister could tell me: are they permitted approximately 300 commercial halibut fishers. There are for consumption in British Columbia? 6724 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Hon. D. McRae: One of my political dreams was percent drop in the commercial fishery GDP and a 25 to actually stand in an official capacity and get to say percent drop in fish processing. the word "Frankenfish." Thank you. Now I've pretty I just wondered what has happened since that time much met my political criteria, and I can go home and with regard to those. retire. However, when it comes to GMO fish, orF rankenfish Hon. D. McRae: The data that the member opposite as I like to call them — and yourself, as well — again, it refers to is data that we've gleaned from other sources, falls under the purview of either DFO or Health Canada. either the DFO or perhaps, at this stage, other B.C. gov- Our understanding is that industry in B.C. and this gov- ernment ministries. If the member opposite would like ernment do not support GMO fish. us to dig up some web links for the ministry or the fed- eral government that actually produce that data, we can M. Sather: That's what I understood, too. I'm glad to provide. Also, I would think a very quick Google search have that confirmed. would provide the exact same information, if you want The ministry's service plan does say that the ministry it faster than we can provide. is responsible for "some management of commercial fisheries." What is this ministry's responsibility for man- M. Sather: Well, this is good information that was agement of the commercial fishery? provided on the provincial website which is now the purview of this ministry. I think it would be valuable if Hon. D. McRae: I'm sure the member opposite knows the ministry would continue to provide that kind of in- that the province has no authority on the boats. What we formation. It's pretty pertinent to ministry debate. are responsible for is commercial fish inspection.O nce the One of the other things that I read was that fish and fish have landed, the B.C. government inspects the pro- seafood product exports were over a billion dollars in cessing facilities for food safety and quality to ensure that 2005. So we're looking at over a billion dollars for fish B.C. product remains at the highest standard possible. and seafood product exports from our province. I'd [1535] just like to get some indication anyway, if the ministry doesn't have figures — or maybe they do in this case — M. Sather: Well, just going back for a minute, refer- of what we are looking at now, some six years later. ring to the brochure, which we cannot display, can the [1540] minister tell us how many of those were produced and at what cost? Hon. D. McRae: To the member opposite: I don't know if you received it yesterday, but we sent out a press Hon. D. McRae: As proud as we are of the brochure, release yesterday afternoon, I think it was, saying that we don't have those specific numbers and the cost in in 2009, to over 70 countries, we exported $900 million front of us today. However, if the member would like, worth of product. Obviously, that makes aquaculture we will get that information to you very quickly. the biggest agricultural export in this province.

M. Sather: Is it fair to say, though, that it's included M. Sather: That was 2009? So $900 million in 2009 in the $300,000? and $1 billion in 2005. So we've had a bit of a drop there. Can the minister give some explanation as to why the Hon. D. McRae: I've been assured by staff, since the exports have dropped in value? information is on the web and we expect most people to access it via the web, that the run of the unnamed Hon. D. McRae: You know, we haven't done the an- brochures is rather small and not a significant portion alysis as to particularly why there was a drop. I'm sure of budget. the member opposite remembers that in 2009 we were However, like I said earlier, if the member opposite in the midst of the greatest economic recession in the wishes to have the exact dollars, we'll do our best to pro- last 70 years, and seafood being, obviously, a premium vide that as soon as possible. product might have had an impact on that. The other thing is, andI 'm sure the member knows as M. Sather: Back to the commercial fishery. When I well, that the Canadian dollar, over the last several years, was looking on the website, some of the best informa- has been steadily inching upwards. Today I think I saw tion I found was a little bit dated, a couple years old. It it as $1.04 — right? — or maybe gone to $1.03, which was when the Ministry of Environment had respon- might have some play on to it. But the analysis hasn't sibility. So some of this information came from there. been done yet. In talking about the value in terms of the proportion of GDP, it said that there was — and this is for 2005, the M. Sather: Looking at the value of the international last figures I could see; it was a report in 2009 — a 28 export of fishery products in the commercial fishery and Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6725

in the aquaculture industry — again I'm using the 2005 the minister might — about the 2005 fishery, the wild figures — it was $678 million in the commercial and fishery. We know it was really a huge fishery in sockeye $210 million in the aquaculture industry. What is it to- last year. day? If you don't have the figures, can the minister tell I'm just trying to get a sense of proportions here, then. me whether the ratio is roughly the same? We're looking So assuming that since we had such a huge sockeye fish- at 678 versus 210 back then. ery last year, the proportion would be that much more and the value of exports would be that much more heav- Hon. D. McRae: Like I said, the press release went out ily weighted in favour of the wild salmon…. Would the yesterday. The analysis hasn't been done — the break- minister think that's correct? down. But this is not something that we, you know, are trying to not show the member. We'd like to provide Hon. D. McRae: As I stated earlier, the press release that information, hopefully sooner than later, but again, we sent out yesterday with the latest data we had was for $900 million is still incredibly significant, and we're very 2009. But just to read into the record — again, it's some- proud of that number. thing we're proud of, but it's not under our purview: However, if the member opposite has any suggestions "The 2010 Fraser River sockeye salmon return was the how we can grow that industry, either the aquaculture largest since 1913, with an estimated 34 million run size. side or the commercial side, I'm always more than will- Conservation goals were met and exceeded during the ing to listen. It's obviously important to the coastal 2010 season, resulting in the opening of the fishery for fishery, which is part of my riding and many, many rid- the first time in four years to commercial, recreational ings in British Columbia. So if you have any positive and First Nations sectors." solutions on how we can continue to grow it and make The organization that I think you would really like to it more, I'm more than willing to listen, and my door is talk to, to get the most up-to-date information and the always open. organization responsible for really gathering a lot of the data that you're looking for directly — fish counts and M. Sather: Just looking at that figure, and again such — is DFO. We'll do our best to provide you with the ratio is what I'm interested in, it looks to me like that information. I don't want to, basically, guess and be wild fish account for a much greater proportion of wrong, because I've found that in politics when you guess our balance of trade than farmed fish. Would that be and are wrong, it actually doesn't help you. accurate? For that reason, either you'll have to wait until we can do the analysis and get the data to you, or perhaps visit Hon. D. McRae: I hate to say this. I'm a social studies the DFO website or talk to a DFO employee. We're will- teacher by trade, not a biology teacher, but my grade 4 ing to assist in that manner to connect you with the right education that I had in Tsolum School in 1983 reminds individual to get you the data you seem to want. me that fish go in cycles. [1545] M. Sather: The huge sockeye fishery that we had I'm sure the member opposite knows that just like in last year. The province must be keeping track, I would his riding, salmon are a significant portion of our com- think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the province not mercial fishery, and in some years, just by nature, there interested in the value of the export of those fish?I s that are far more salmon spawning in the streams and the being figured out? It sounds like…. You said it was a runs are much larger than other years. DFO issue, but surely the ministry is trying to account While, again, we haven't done the analysis, we haven't for the value of that fishery, at least in terms of the ex- yet figured a way to make sure that the salmon return port portion of it. on a consistent basis every year. We always want to have as many salmon return as possible, because it's good for Hon. D. McRae: I committed to the member to get the commercial side, it's good for the recreational side, the information to the member, whether it's our informa- and it's good for the river health as well. tion or not. Obviously, it is important to have the data to Unfortunately, salmon spawning is not under my work from. You know what? Having data never hurts any ministry as well. It's a DFO issue. But it has a cyclical decision-making process by any level of government. nature, and some years…. It wasn't too long ago that However, like I said earlier, we're dealing with the 2009 we had a record return on the Fraser, and there was an- stats. We haven't had the broken-down analysis yet. I'm other year where we had a devastating return. This goes sure it's available and out there. Again, we are committed through cycles, so that would obviously reflect the value to getting that information to you as quickly as possible. of the commercial catch as well, I'm sure. M. Sather: Well, 2009 is two years ago, so it takes a M. Sather: I hear what the minister is saying. I'm lot of time, I guess. It brings me back to that meeting I not sure, though…. I don't remember, for one thing — attended about the halibut issue, where the fishermen 6726 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011 were astounded when the DFO could not provide a dealt with some financial hardship in the past, and they value for the sport fishery of halibut. need employment. I'm glad that you're taking as keen an [1550] interest in the growing sardine industry as I. I said, "Well, look, I'm sure the province can give us that information," because the DFO was then asking: M. Sather: I noticed in…. I think it was a release from "Well, does the province know what the value of the fish- the government or an article I saw. It talked about third- ery is?" So here I am today, less confident thanI was that party observers for the sardine catch, and I wonder if the night about that — that the province can actually provide minister can just tell me where they do these observa- the value of the fishery. That's kind of disconcerting. tions. What are their duties? I see the minister is getting some information there, so maybe he has a further comment. Hon. D. McRae: Third-party observers, again, are a DFO matter. They're not our employees, but they are on Hon. D. McRae: Dare I say it, but your questioning both the boat and the dock to ensure that it is sardines line is slippery like a fish. We started off with commer- that are being caught. Again, I think it would be best to cial fishing in general, and then we quickly jumped over pursue this line of questioning with the DFO and the to halibut, which I'm a big fan of. They taste incredibly federal government in terms of these employees. good, and they sort of follow that theme of the sablefish, the pout, as incredibly ugly. M. Sather: I'm curious. I know that a lot of the sar- For the record, if I could read in some halibut stats dines are exported to countries like Malaysia and so on. to you which we do have for 2010. The total allowable Previously, as I understand it, a large proportion of that catch for B.C. is 7.65 million pounds, a 2 percent in- fishery was used for baitfish. crease from the 2010 catch limit due to improvements Can the minister tell me a little bit about…. I think in stock conditions. This would allow a commercial when it goes to Malaysia, those folks are eating them. harvest of 6.73 million pounds and a recreational har- Good for them. But is there still a whole lot of that fish- vest of 918,000 pounds, from which the recreational ery that's used for baitfish, or is it now pretty much all a catch overage in 2010 of 112,000 pounds must be food fishery? subtracted. Obviously, the halibut fishery — for the commercial Hon. D. McRae: I have to fall back on my youth and level, the recreation level and the tourism element with my younger days of fishing. WhenI was a kid…. Maybe guides — is a multifaceted, important industry to this you fished in this manner as well. You would actually province, and it would be in everybody's best interests have the little plastic fishing lure. You'd take the cut fish, to have all elements doing as best they can for the resi- you would put it into the lure, attach it, and you'd put it dents and the visitors of British Columbia. into the boat. Fish were hungry, they ate your lure, and you got fish. M. Sather: Thanks to the minister for his response. When I fish now, there's lots of….L et me promote, by I just want to move on now to a sunrise fishery,I guess the way. It will be over the top here, but in the Comox it is. That's the sardine fishery, which has really come to Valley we have a very, very popular and successful busi- the fore in the last few years, with the first fishery - al ness. They create Buzz Bombs and Zzingers. They are lowed in 2009, I believe. incredibly useful lures that are very good, and they ac- I'm not quite clear, though, what's happening in tually catch fish. regard to the processing. Where are the fish being pro- I think oftentimes that using dead fish maybe is a cessed? Well, let's start with that. Can the minister tell practice still being used by some purists. However, when me where those fish are being processed? I fished recently, we haven't bothered to go to that extra effort and use the sardines. We just go to the sporting Hon. D. McRae: We have the ever-popular 2009 stats goods store, and we buy the lure. When the fish are as our most recent data in front of us. I know you're ex- there, we're pretty successful. cited about 2009. You'll be heartened to know that in Again, I'm pretty proud that the Comox Valley has 2009, 14,000 of the 15,000 tonnes — at any measure, a one of the most successful lure production facilities in tonne of sardines is a whole bunch of sardines — har- North America. They're incredibly well known both vested in British Columbia were processed through here and in other places in the world. plants either in Port Hardy, Ucluelet or Zeballos. I'm sure the member opposite knows that 83 per- [1555] cent of sardine exports are to countries that are smaller I have been to all those communities and know how markets for B.C. seafood. But four that are of note are important it is to have, basically, a vibrant fishing indus- Malaysia, which I think you mentioned; the Ukraine, try in this province, in terms of the harvest and the catch which surprised me, but power to them; South Korea; and the processing, because those areas have obviously and Thailand. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6727

Again, if the member opposite can help us expand region. I would hope that, as we move forward, we can that market…. You seem to have an incredibly keen in- sit down and discuss that and look at initiatives, or we terest in the sardine world. If you have any expertise can work together on that. you wish to share with us, by all means please stop by My second question…. It's just a follow-up to the Bella the office. Coola Valley flooding and agriculture, Minister. I'm not [1600] too sure if you've the right staff here.I know we communi- cated about getting a briefing. But I'm just wondering if G. Coons: Thank you, Minister. Congratulations you had any other knowledge or input about the package again. We've e-mailed a couple of times on a few issues. for flood relief for the devastating agriculture damage Continuing the fish issue here, I'm just wondering if that was done in the Bella Coola Valley? there are any initiatives from the government or your [1610] ministry going towards closed containment throughout the province with finfish aquaculture. Hon. D. McRae: In response to the first question, you [1605] were talking about closed containment in a First Nations community in your riding. Again, whether it's in the [J. McIntyre in the chair.] ocean or on land, it's still a DFO responsibility. In response to your second question, thank you very Hon. D. McRae: Why, hello. Every time I stand up much for the letter. I was very pleased that we were able there seems to be someone new there. But good to see to respond so quickly. My understanding is that we re- you. quested the information to the office. It got there today. I'm sure that the member opposite knows that the If you happen to be in town tomorrow — I will not be in DFO, the federal government, has responsibility for this town — and if you wanted to stop by my office or call the issue. We do not have dollars for research of closed con- office and talk to staff there, if they're available and the tainment within this ministry. information is there, I'm sure they'd talk to you. The member opposite may be familiar with the federal If not, I'd very much be pleased to talk with you when program, Tides Canada, which we have an understand- we get back next week and to get a resolution to this ing that there's approximately $5 million available for issue as quickly as possible. I know that the farmers in research in this area. But again, this is a federal pro- your region were definitely struck with some real hard- gram and not one that we have intimate dealings with. ship there with the flooding. I think it would be very So I'm sure you could find information about, again, nice if they can work within the existing programs to Tides Canada. find some assistance. What we do is provide encouragement for best prac- tice and the sharing of information and innovation L. Popham: I guess I'm going to get back to your ser- within the industry. But like I said at the start, we don't vice plan, the minister's service plan, and talk about the have dollars for research of closed containment, and it is general direction of the ministry right now and how it a DFO responsibility. pertains to maybe a bit of a difference in our philoso- phies on agriculture. It also pertains to the amount of G. Coons: Again, we look at what is going on with the money that is being spent in certain directions in the open-net fish farming and aquaculture. Although it's a ministry. federal issue, we have B.C. technology on closed con- As I read through the service plan, I see that there's tainment. There's a headline here from two years ago: quite a bit of discussion around innovation and creating "China Scoops B.C. Fish Farm Technology." new markets. The direction seems to be going towards I think a stance by the minister and the government a more international market for our products in B.C. to say: "Hey, we're going to lead the technology for fin- The concern that I have is that I feel as though the do- fish aquaculture…." Aquaculture is a vital component mestic market has been abandoned. I don't think we've of the province. It has to coexist with our wild fish- done enough to take advantage of the four million hun- eries. How do we want to do that? One way is to use gry people here in British Columbia. I think that when B.C. technology with Agrimarine, which had their on- you look at four million people that possibly eat three or land system set up in Cedar, outside Nanaimo, and I more times a day, this is a market that's in place. visited that. Then they went up to Middle Bay, doing One of my concerns is that when we abandon the do- their closed containment up there. mestic market, I think we abandon local farmers, we I was hoping that we'd be seeing some innovation abandon local small-scale and medium-scale farmers, and governance money that might be supporting it, be- and we start to centralize our food production and de- cause in my constituency, Lax Kw'alaams — which is pend on our larger industrial models for agriculture. Port Simpson, a First Nations village that has a fish plant So that being said, there's another reason why I don't — is looking at trying to get closed containment in the support the move towards a more international market. 6728 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

I think it's very volatile, and it puts our growers into an definitely want us to expand the local market. I think unstable situation. As we've seen with the economic we're doing some work around that, and I'm very proud collapse over the last few years, this is something that of that. You might have seen on the news not too long could happen again, and if we're set up to do trade and ago…. As one of the first acts as minister — in recogniz- to market internationally, that's the market that's going ing that I myself, and I know yourself as well, support to collapse. So if we're not developing a strong domestic farmers markets — I was able to grant them $75,000 market, I think that we're setting ourselves up for a big to expand their capacity as a general organization and problem in the future. grow farmers markets. That being said, there is messaging around sup- We have almost a hundred of them in the province. porting domestic agriculture and local growers, but I When you think back to 15 years ago, a farmers market think the weight of the service plan is focused on a dif- was almost like an endangered species. Now they're a ferent market. prize in every community. Communities are desperate The other concernI have with going to an international to promote them and grow them, and that is something market, to have a focus there, is that it really flies in the that I was proud, as Agriculture Minister, to do. face of the climate change requirements we have to re- The other thing is that we're seeing a scenario where, duce emissions in this province. Those are legislative basically, major retailers are showing pride in B.C. pro- changes that we have to make. Forty percent of emissions duct. I like to see it on Vancouver Island. You might are caused by transporting food around our globe, so for be familiar with Rage's greenhouse facility, producing me that becomes a problem. If we have the ability to pro- 200,000 cucumbers from Port Alberni, selling to over duce food and sell our food here in the province, then I 50 stores. think that we should be doing that for economic reasons They are producing pretty much at maximum cap- but also for environmental reasons. acity, and that is in response to some of their concerns. The concern around climate change is being addressed This high Canadian dollar, which is basically making as far as moving our growers to be able to adapt better in foreign product a bit more competitive — what to be this service plan, but I don't think it's addressing climate brought in — is a stress to them. Even still, they react change at the level of reducing our emissions altogether accordingly. or in a way that we need to do to be able to adapt as a [1620] society to climate change. I was very pleased to visit their farm, see their oper- [1615] ation and hear some of their challenges but also to I guess I'd like an explanation, then, on what the min- basically enjoy their successes in actually bringing ister thinks the direction of the ministry is and if my locally grown product to Vancouver Island. My remem- assumptions are correct. brance was that everything they grow they actually sell on the Island. They're very proud of their marketing and Hon. D. McRae: A whole bunch of questions there, how they sell. It's nice to see that. I know my daughter is so I'll try to touch on some of them, if I may. If it's not a huge fan of their product as well. good enough, I'm sure we can visit this again in a few The other thing is that, just talking about foreign mar- minutes. kets, sometimes our desire to go to foreign markets is You obviously, like myself, are very concerned about at the request of industry. Through the Ranching Task the environment. I'm just not sure if I'm hearing you Force, the cattlemen asked us to help them expand their correctly. You didn't say it specifically, but are you say- industry. Obviously, like yourself, we find the ranching ing that you're a big supporter of the carbon tax, but you industry is absolutely important to this province. want us to take it further than it is right now in terms They felt that their industry would be better served of making sure that people do as much as they can to not just selling their product within the province but, reduce their carbon footprint? I wasn't sure. Maybe you also, being able to sell their product in foreign markets. can clarify that at a later stage. So just last year the then Minister of Agriculture was The other thing is…. I think for any market or any in- able to take a trade mission trip to Asia, visiting Japan dustry it's important to diversify. We saw an example of and China, at the request of the industry, to promote the that with the forest industry not too long ago. We enjoyed product. He was happy to do so, and the industry was for many, many decades just how vibrant the U.S. market happy to have him there. was. When the U.S. market went away, it takes time for At the same time, you probably are very well aware the forest industry to react accordingly. that we have some product in oversupply. Two prime The other key thing is that if you diversify, you have examples were blueberries. We had more than the do- the ability to basically avoid some of the economic cycles mestic market could actually consume. As much as we that happen in life. like blueberries, there was just a surplus of them, and For those reasons, I think we're seeing a scenario so we're looking for ways to expand that product be- where the producers are wanting two things. One, they cause it is something that is wanted especially by some Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6729

Asian markets. If we could encourage it, it's good for us The Chair: Welcome back to Vote 14, the estimates domestically, but it's also good for their nutrition out- for the Ministry of Agriculture. side of the province. At the same time we were there we also encouraged cherries, and that's another market that L. Popham: We left off with the minister answering we're looking to expand. my last question. Within that answer came some ques- Since I'm off on a tangent now, as well, I'm going tions towards me, so I'm going to answer those questions to keep on going. One of the things I learned — as an but will be using them to ask the minister some ques- MLA, not as a minister — is about the world of artisan tions as well. distilling, which I think is a pretty amazing value-added The minister mentioned the carbon tax and ifI thought agriculture product. I had the opportunity last year to that it should be higher. I think that was in response to go up to Pemberton and see the Schramm Vodka dis- my claims about emissions and food production. I am in tillery. Well, what a surprise. We have the Chair; it's in support of the carbon tax, absolutely. her riding. It brings up a very interesting scenario, because the I was so pleased to see when I was up there. They were agriculture industry in B.C. is actually having trouble taking what were traditionally organic potatoes out of because of the carbon tax. That's because it has created the Pemberton Valley, a locally grown product, and an unfair playing field. We have greenhouse grow- because they were — excuse my grade ignorance — a ers who are growing our domestic products. The same B-grade organic potato, there was no market for them. products are being imported by other countries which They didn't look pretty enough, or they were too big or do not get a carbon tax on them. small, and they were putting them basically into landfill I am in support of a carbon tax, but as far as agriculture and going to waste. goes, we have to look at the bigger picture. Should we be Well, the Schramm Vodka distillery takes those having some sort of carbon tax on the products that are 200,000 pounds of organic potatoes, and instead of imported, that are coming from miles? Or should we say wasting them, they convert them into a high-value, value- to ourselves: "You know what? We want to encourage our added agricultural product. When I was in Whistler and domestic market, so maybe, as far as greenhouse growers in Pemberton, and I've seen in other places, it is a very, or agriculture goes, there might be a different look at the very well-received product. way the carbon tax should look." They sell beyond British Columbia, as well, and they I am in support of it, but I do think that there are ways would love to expand their capacity to increase their to handle it with agriculture that would support our do- B.C. market share, of course, but they're not going to mestic market, which is not happening right now. just sit there and say: "We're just going to sell in British Another interesting point was made about the minis- Columbia." To be a vibrant industry and with the invest- ter's support for local agriculture. Within the last hour ment that they need to make in that industry, just like lots the minister also commented about how glad he was of farming industries have to do, they want to make sure that a big-box store had come to Comox by the name that their market is not confined just to one area. of Costco. Costco is very known to supply cheap im- So I'm committed to having a multifaceted approach ported food, cheap imported produce. So as far as and, basically, definitely grow the domestic market. being a friend of agriculture, Costco is not. In fact, it You're bang on. The Canadian dollar is where it is today, threatens smaller suppliers and producers and privately and where it's going to be tomorrow, well, we're not sure. owned smaller stores in the minister's community, as But we know that the product that we grow in this prov- well as in mine. ince is phenomenal, and it has good quality nutrition. Also, it's been on the record that the official oppos- We want to encourage that, and we also want to share ition is opposed to open-net fish farming. They also that good quality product with the world. For those rea- sell farmed salmon, so I'm not sure why the Minister of sons, we're going to continue to go down both strands Agriculture would be so supportive of a big-box store, there and especially if the industry asks. which I don't think, actually, is supportive of agriculture While I'm standing, I was thinking that if the mem- at all in B.C., at least sustainable agriculture. bers around the table would be so interested, perhaps a Getting back to questions for the minister, the farmers five-minute break might be in order. market support that he announced is excellent. I'm glad to see that. I might be corrected. I think it was $75,000 The Chair: Yes. I was actually just going to say there's to farmers markets. I'd like to know how that money is been a request, so I'm very happy to recess the meeting allocated around the province within the farmers mar- for five minutes. kets associations. [1635] The committee recessed from 4:24 p.m. to 4:32 p.m. Hon. D. McRae: A very interesting back-and-forth [J. Rustad in the chair.] here. First of all, the member opposite talks about per- 6730 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

haps we can put some form of carbon tax — I guess it You know, when you go to, again, the Comox Valley would be like a duty — on imported agricultural goods, Farmers Market, which I try to attend a lot…. In fact, and that does worry me a lot. I would hate to have a I was there just two weeks ago. You know, it is all B.C. province of 4.5 million people that's twice the size of product. There are no crafts. It is about agriculture. It is France get into a trade-war scenario. I don't think that's about promoting product that is grown and raised, but something I would like to do. also value-added agriculture there, which I think is just I have talked about the carbon tax with many, many absolutely phenomenal. On top of that, you can also producers. I've talked about the carbon tax with BCAC. enjoy some local talent. Since I'm sure there are, if not They were one of the first industry groups that came thousands, at least dozens of people watching us right to see me in my capacity as Minister of Agriculture, now and perhaps later on tonight on TV, if I could en- and I thought they are an incredibly interesting group courage them to come to the Comox Valley and visit the with a lot of good ideas, and they're out to, basically, Comox Valley Farmers Market…. really grow agriculture in this province. So I was very [1640] pleased with…. They raised concerns, but they also As Minister of Agriculture, I would be remiss to have recognized some of the areas that are really positive in them say: "Well, if you can't come to the Comox Valley, the province. I think we're lucky to have an advocacy please support your local farmers market." They pro- group like that. duce and provide an amazing service in communities The other thing is we talked about the Rage's green- across this province. house in Port Alberni the other day and my visit there. Yes, the carbon tax was a concern to the owner, and I lis- L. Popham: Well, it's an interesting comment from tened, but even with the high Canadian dollar, at $1.05, the minister regarding wanting to start a trade war due and even with the carbon tax, he is still doing such a to carbon tax, but what I was implying was that it's an good job producing 200,000 cucumbers a year, selling unfair playing field to have a carbon tax on our grow- them on Vancouver Island to over 50 retailers. Yes, it is a ers when imported food doesn't, if you're looking at it challenge for him, and it is a cost that he doesn't have the through a lens of climate change, which I don't think ability to recover, per se, but at the same time, his busi- the current government is right now. I think that's been ness is good and it's thriving. I'm proud to see that there abandoned, and I think that we can see that with the are agricultural producers like Rage's greenhouses. outreach to the international market. For a bit of clarity on big boxes, I think I tried to say As far as promoting beef, I'll get back to the com- that I didn't want to come across as being a…. I didn't ment about the cattle association. The cattle association have a position on big box, but I did have with the Costco has been failing for years, mostly because it's been analogy. The story I was using was…. It was just talking abandoned by the government as far as creating a do- about 1,000 people lining up on a Saturday to actually mestic market. If you look at the government's own go to a job fair. That was purely in response to…. You self-sufficiency report, you can see that we consume know, obviously there is a need or a desire for increased more beef than we produce, and so as a businessperson, employment in the Comox Valley. The member opposite I would look at that scenario and I would recreate a plan may not know, but my wife had for 15 years…. She did that instils our domestic market. not own a big box. She owned, in fact, a very small store But you can look at other things like that, too, as far on 5th Street and was an independent producer. as blueberries and cherries. I would like to know from In the Comox Valley, and I know you've been there the minister: how many pounds or pints of blueberries to visit, 5th Street is an absolute jewel in the Comox are imported into our province right now from other Valley, and is the envy of many, many small towns in countries? British Columbia, where you see such a diverse range of independent retailers. It is something that is not only Hon. D. McRae: Fresh or frozen? If it's fresh…. something that we cherish, but people actually make the Obviously, there are no fresh blueberries this time of effort to come to the Comox Valley to visit those stores. year. Frozen — I don't know if we actually keep that. It's a As for the Costco purchasing elements, that's some- tough time to be growing. It's been a wicked spring. thing I do not wish to go into today. Just a couple of things. One of the things…. We The $75,000 that I was able to give to the farmers mentioned earlier when we were talking about fishing market association…. The best part about that grant was how, just in 2010, the sockeye run was the biggest in that it was an unconditional grant to the farmers market 87, 97, 98 years. This is obviously the nature of agricul- association for them to basically grow their organiza- ture. Just like fishing, it can be cyclical, and there are tion, expand their capacity. It's amazing what they've certain years where there is an absolutely amazing glut been able to do to this stage, and I'm looking forward in the market. to seeing what they will do with the dollars I was able You know, my understanding is that with the blue- to help provide. berry industry several years ago the price per pound was Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6731 very, very advantageous for the grower. Many, many in- that the ministry…. That's data the ministry doesn't col- dividuals in a free-market economy decided, "You know lect. It can come in, in such a variety of ways. If it were what? I want to grow blueberries," and so they did. They to come in through another province and then get trans- had some amazing years and produced a huge amount ferred interprovincially to British Columbia, that would of blueberries, and we had a dearth of blueberries. be one way, I suppose. Instead of letting them go to waste…. You know, in But at this stage the ministry uses its resources in such British Columbia, when you actually do harvest blue- a manner not to go after what the import rate would be. berries — I guess we'll use the August time — you know But it also does allow me to go off and…. Right now, ob- what? People are buying en masse. But the reality is that viously, you can't buy strawberries, either, from British we don't want product to go to waste. It's just the same Columbia, but you can buy fresh strawberries, and in cherries. I told the story about the artisan distiller they're from California. who uses the potatoes. Well, there are opportunities It comes down to: if people are, if the market is de- down the road, I've been told, where we actually had to manding product that is out of B.C. season, as much as end up throwing into compost and waste cherries that we would like to encourage people to buy locally, buying are perfectly good. We just have too many for what the fruit…. Apples are available, by all means. They've been market will bear. in cold storage for a long period of time. But sometimes Sometimes we just have a scenario where we have not consumers wish to have a wider variety. So right now enough product, but sometimes we have too much, and we have strawberries on our shelves in grocery stores British Columbia's 4.5 million people sometimes don't around the province, and no, they're not from British have the capacity to consume certain products to the de- Columbia by any means, if they're fresh. gree that the farmers would like us to buy. So by growing But it also heartens me to remind people, as the those markets, not only do they have the ability to sell Minister of Agriculture, that if you ever have the oppor- domestically, but they also have the ability to sell on the tunity to taste a pretty California strawberry compared international market. to a British Columbia strawberry, you'll find the B.C. While I'm a high school teacher by trade, I do recog- strawberry tastes and is far more nutritious than those nize that in farming, some years are far more profitable import products. than others. I think we need to do everything we can in At the end of the day — which is a very popular pol- agriculture to make sure that when the growing is good, itical statement we use, our old cliché — if the market they're making dollars, and if there happens to be a is demanding that people want a certain product in an rough year, that will be something that will sustain them out-of-season time of year, we don't have the capacity to through those rough years. both measure what they bring in nor to prevent them Having a local farmer actually having too much pro- from bringing it in. duct and then being able to sell it — that's a problem I would love to be hearing from the BCAC. But that's…. I L. Popham: Thanks to the minister. It seems awfully guess we'll leave it there. curious to me that the Ministry of Agriculture wouldn't track what's coming in as imports into our province L. Popham: Wow, that just opens up so many more when we're trying to develop an international market questions for me actually — and stories I can tell as to supply others. You would think that we would know well. what we're trying to supply ourselves and what's being You were bringing up the artisan distillers. Being consumed here. someone who sleeps 20 feet from a large still in my But that does bring me back to an issue of a glut in backyard — a legal one — I am very well aware of the the market for something such as blueberries, for ex- artisan distillers association and the potential that's ample. We used to have a very healthy extension service there, but unfortunately, the way that the tax system program within the ministry that would advise people works right now, it is almost impossible for artisan dis- on crops to plant, trends, perhaps overplanting of crops. tillers to make a living, so maybe the minister could That funding has dwindled away over the years, and I help us out there. know, as a certified organic grower myself, that organic [1645] growing is one of the fastest developing markets in B.C. Moving back to blueberries, my question was: how — the types of agriculture that are being done. many blueberries are imported into our province? I don't Just last fall the only organic extension officer was cut care if it's fresh or frozen, and I'm not talking about fresh from the budget. So I guess my question is: is that com- at this time of year. But we may be getting some blueber- ing back? Because the service plan implies that we are ries from somewhere like Chile at this time of year. all about sustainable growing practices, and it would be a shame to cut that very vital service for any more time Hon. D. McRae: As much as we would like to be able than it already has been cut for. to provide you with the exact amount, that's something [1650] 6732 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

Hon. D. McRae: In regards to the organic extension growing, that's something that…. The organic industry officer, this was a position funded for a three-year per- or sector — it's not small. It requires someone who's a iod in partnership with the organic industry with the full-time person that's dedicated to that sector. understanding by all parties, both the organic sector So I guess my question is: how many sectors is this in- and the Ministry of Agriculture, that it would become dustry sector specialist responsible for? How much does sort of self-sustaining and industry-supported by that it cost to have that person in place? And how many of time. That obviously did not come to fruition, but that those people do we have working in the province? was the understanding by the industry — that they would basically grow that interim position into becom- Hon. D. McRae: In regards to the organic industry, my ing a permanent one and that it wouldn't be relying on sense is that you're right. It's not small, and it is actually ministry support to that degree. growing. I think it has the potential to grow more. I'm However, I do want to remind the member oppos- hoping that the COABC will take the time and effort to ite that we have sector specialists, and we still do have come and talk about what the sector specialist is that we an industry organic sector specialist who is the lead for have right now and how that role is perceived and how those types of questions through the ministry. that's helping their sector flourish and grow farther. But in response to your question, we have 9.5 sec- L. Popham: The organic extension officer that was tor specialists. In particular, the specialists I think that working in partnership with the ministry funding and you're referring to at this stage are not only responsible COABC was a critical service for organic farmers. This was for organics but are also responsible for field vegetables. somebody who knew the farmers face to face. She knew the farms. She visited the farms. It was a service that was [D. Horne in the chair.] critical to them. For new farmers coming onto the scene, she was basically, you know, a tutor for organic farming. L. Popham: How much does that position cost? I believe $76,000 was the cost. I believe that the value that the ministry probably got from that service as far as Hon. D. McRae: Hello again, Chair. encouraging farming was incredible. So is there a plan [1700] to bring that extension officer back? If it's okay, I'll give an approximate amount, because it also includes benefits and such. We're working from Hon. D. McRae: I just want to remind the member the number of approximately $100,000 for that particu- opposite that we have an industry sector specialist who lar position. However, if the member would like absolute is more than willing to work with the organic indus- numbers, I'm sure we could provide those. But I'm sure try. I've had many, many meetings so far as Minister of we'll be very close to that approximate $100,000 range. Agriculture, and one I would very much relish to have is a meeting with COABC. L. Popham: Thank you for that information.I t would I can't remember whether they've requested me at seem to me that the organic extension officer position this stage, but my door is open not just to that indus- that was cut…. It seems obvious that it was because of a try but to as many agriculture industry organizations as financial decision.I don't think the decision was made possible that can be willing to, at this stage when we're in for the betterment of agriculture in British Columbia. session, come to Victoria. I'm very curious to meet with In fact, I think it's a detriment, and I think we've had them and hear about their industry and what they're do- a huge loss. ing to grow their industry and perhaps to hear what they If this industry sector specialist is responsible for think we could do to assist. the organic industry plus all field vegetables in British Columbia, I think that's too much. I think that's too L. Popham: Is the industry sector specialist a position much, and I think that it would be better to have a sec- that was in place as well as the organic extension officer? tor specialist that was specifically dedicated to organics [1655] and then maybe one that was specifically dedicated to field vegetables.I t seems like it was a really bad decision Hon. D. McRae: We created the sector specialist pos- by this ministry. ition after the organic extension officer position concluded, I think that if you went and had a meeting with the but just in case it's going to require further follow-up, director or the chair of COABC, you would find that their area of expertise is not just organic. They have other they are giving you the same argument. The person that sectors that they are responsible for, but they did not exist the minister should be speaking with is Rochelle, who during the term of the organic extension officer. was the organic extension officer. She can tell you herself how busy she was and how meaningful that position was L. Popham: Well, I think that's a problem, because in that industry. They really are shocked, and you know, I think that when someone has a specialty in organic there's no way for them to recover at this point. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6733

I would like to know how busy the industry sector larly, one of the inspectors who does visit farms when specialist is and if there's any data being kept as far as necessary, but their primary focus is to work with the how many calls for organics and how many calls for con- industry organizations. ventional farming. L. Popham: So these officers are not dedicated to -in Hon. D. McRae: I just want to remind the member dividual farmers? opposite that the organic extension officer was a -pos ition going into an agreement with the ministry and the Hon. D. McRae: We encourage farmers to work with industry to fund the position for three years with the their industry associations whenever possible, but as understanding by both parties, both the ministry and well, they are entitled and able to contact the sector spe- the organics industry, that it would be self-sustaining cialists if they feel so necessary. within three years. By all means, I do not doubt for a second that the L. Popham: That's interesting. It seems as though the person within that position didn't work incredibly dili- industry sector specialists are not quite as accessible as gently and was very passionate about her job, but in the idea of an organic extension officer or an extension British Columbia we have 250 agriculture sectors and, officer of any sort that the ministry used to have. That's you know, they would all like to have their own sector concerning. specialists. We did treat the organic industry as special If I'm doing the math right, we are spending about a for a period of time, but the reality is that we just do not million dollars on these positions, and they are accessible have the resources to have a person targeted for every to the organizations with agriculture but not necessarily specific sector in this province. the farmers. That's hard for me to understand as a farmer — that we wouldn't have those extension services offered L. Popham: The 9.5 industry sector specialists — are to individual farmers, conventional or organic. they specifically dedicated to certain sectors as well, or is [1710] anybody singularly put into a sector of agriculture? That's one of the things, as I've toured around the [1705] province for two years, that farmers miss. Given the case of climate change and adaptability to climate change in Hon. D. McRae: For the member opposite, just to agriculture, which is huge…. We already see that. The give you a list of not the actual employees' names but seasons — we can't predict what they're going to be as the areas that they're responsible for. Of the 9½, we easily. That's something that I think would be an ex- have a sector specialist in beef, bison and specialty live- cellent position to have, a climate change adaptability stock; a sector specialist in seafood and aquaculture; a specialist for agriculture. I don't know if we have that, sector specialist in pork and dairy; a sector specialist in but these are positions that farmers should be able to poultry; a sector specialist in floriculture and nursery; a call in and request to come to their farm. sector specialist in tree fruit; a sector specialist in organ- As far as budget cuts go and being more efficient, this ics and field vegetables; a sector specialist in berries; a is the wrong direction. We now are running into the case sector specialist in apiculture; and a half-time position where the ministry is so bare bones that it's becoming an in greens and oilseeds. There you go. administration. There's a huge roadblock between farm- ers and the ministry that's supposed to represent farming L. Popham: The officer that's responsible for the- or in British Columbia. I have a big problem with that. ganic sector — do any of the other positions overlap In the minister's service plan, it starts out talking with that? So if you have organic poultry, do you have about some of the difficulties as far as making commit- to call the organic specialist or do you call the poultry ments because of tough economic times, but "we focus person first? on delivering our ministry's critical services." Extension services are critical to agriculture. I don't Hon. D. McRae: I'm proud to say that the specialists think you're going to have to travel very far as Minister do not work in a silo where they refuse to talk to each of Agriculture to hear that message coming from every- other. They do work together, and when there is over- body in agriculture that I've been involved with and that lap, they're more than willing to work with each other to I've met along my road as the critic for the last two years. promote and enhance agriculture in the province. I hope that the minister will listen to those farmers when they tell you that they need that service back in place. L. Popham: Do these specialists do farm visits? Getting back to farmers markets…. I think that this question probably falls under a different ministry, but Hon. D. McRae: The sector specialists — their pri- I think it's something that the minister would be well mary role is to work with the industry organizations. aware of as the minister and as somebody who has such However, they do have the ability…. I know, particu- an interest in farmers markets. There was a farmers 6734 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

market coupon program for low-income families that know. You can write to me or have a meeting with me was offered. It really was an excellent program that sup- at any point. ported local farming and low-income families at the I would like to know how much money in this same time. I'm wondering if the minister knows if that's budget is dedicated to First Nations agricultural coming back. development.

Hon. D. McRae: In regards to the farmers market Hon. D. McRae: We seem to also go back and forth coupon program, that wasn't an initiative that was with the organic side. I am very much looking forward under this ministry. It was a Ministry of Health initia- to having a meeting with the COABC and hearing their tive. I encourage the member, if she wishes to follow up perspective, because again, when we go back to the or- on that, to perhaps have the opportunity to talk to the ganic extension officer, which was obviously before minister there. my time…. Ministry staff must have found it did have One of the things, too, we were thinking here is…. some importance, because they agreed that it was to be I had the opportunity, not too long ago, to watch one a three-year period with both sides, ministry and the of our sector specialists deal directly with farmers. I organic association or organic industry, understanding was in a room with 12 or 14 farmers, and they had dir- that after that three-year period lapsed, it would be a ect access to the specialists and were able to basically self-sustaining position. not only express their concerns but to say what they I'm hoping that when I do have a meeting with the were also looking for and looking from the ministry COABC, perhaps they can explain from their perspec- in terms of helping to promote their industry and en- tive, at least, why the position was not able to actually hance their industry. grow into a self-sustaining position and if it was some- [1715] thing that maybe they needed more support with or I know firsthand from being in the room that the sec- maybe there were just circumstances beyond every- tor specialists are actually being accessible to farmers. body's control. But it's curious because, again, there was Of course, in a perfect world we would have immedi- an agreement that everybody knew the end date and the ate access all the time. I think it's also very heartening end result for it, so there should be no surprises there. in British Columbia to know that we have the industry Of course, I would have loved to have seen it become associations — which provide valuable support and are self-sustaining, and I'm curious to hear their perspec- a great sort of communal advocacy group that allow the tive as to why it didn't. concerns of farmers, which are often not one-offs but The second aspect was about First Nations. There are are often actually wider in scope and nature — to bring three First Nations agrologists, one FTE provincially forward those interests. So they're not just hearing from supported and two FTEs supported by the Growing one specific farmer. If there's an issue, it's wide-ranging, Forward agreement. From the Ministry of Agriculture, and so we know that government resources and staff are the total budget program, including travel, is $60,000. being used in the best means possible. Obviously, there are dollars coming from the federal government to those positions as well. L. Popham: The minister raises a good point. It's [1720] good to know that they were accessible in that room, but having farmers go through their advocacy group such as L. Popham: My next set of questions is around gen- COABC…. It would seem to me that COABC thought etically modified seed.I 'm just wondering if the ministry it was best to have an extension officer available to them is tracking the amount of genetically modified seed that's for their farmers to use. coming into the province and keeping track of what's Getting together in a room for a meeting is great, and being planted in the province and where. I think that all farming groups do that from time to time over the year, whether it's in an AGM…. But call- Hon. D. McRae: In acknowledgement of how much ing someone up on the phone, having a chat, getting an time…. If we were to sit there and pull the answer out, appointment booked to come to the farm…. In a way, perhaps you wouldn't have the opportunity to ask the that probably works better for smaller to medium-scale other questions that you still wish to ask, so if it's okay farms, which are one of the types of farming that is really with the member opposite, we will get the answer to increasing in B.C. and that I believe that we want to see you. Instead of wasting valuable time and our limited increase in B.C. resources, could we take a pass on this one and get back We're going to run out of time, which is too bad. But to you in near future? one thing I wanted to…. I'm going to go through just some really quick questions. If you need to get back to L. Popham: Absolutely. me at a certain point so that I could just get these ques- tions on record with you, that's fine. You can just let me Hon. D. McRae: Thank you. Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6735

L. Popham: I'm going to switch topics again and talk We also contributed, like I mentioned earlier, about the B.C. sled dog inquiry. I don't know if you need $100,000 this year to assist with animal investigations. different staff. You're okay? I'm sure the member opposite was very happy to see The sled dog tragedy, I think, shocked everybody in the Premier commit to providing ongoing funding to B.C. It's not the type of story you want to wake up to, the BCSPCA in a press announcement that I had the and there was a lot of frustration and anger and sadness opportunity, with the Minister of Environment at the around that. same time, to attend. The task force and inquiry that came from thatI think [1730] was done in very good time. I think that the dedication I believe it was in early April and probably the lar- to bringing forward some of the strongest animal cruelty gest press conference that the Minister of Agriculture legislation is a step in the right direction. will ever get to attend. All I got to do was emcee, but That being said, I've got some questions around the that was okay. funding for the BCSPCA. This is really to get my own I understand, as well, that the BCSPCA has made the understanding of it as well. Is the BCSPCA required by choice to not be as reliant on gaming grants. They've legislation to carry out prevention and investigation ser- chosen instead to increase their class A lottery option vices by the province of B.C.? which, if the member opposite isn't familiar with it, is very similar to the hospital home lottery system. I think Hon. D. McRae: Like the member opposite, I was ab- the BCSPCA obviously has a very good reputation and solutely horrified and dismayed when I learned of this a very good support base, so I look forward to them be- horrible incident involving those animals. If we had more coming even more self-reliant on their good name and time, I actually have a good personal story about how sled basically allow individuals to make the decision to pur- dogs are responsible for my family to be here. But in the chase and perhaps win a nice home as well. interest of time, I'll tell you that story in the hallway. Under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act, they L. Popham: Well, it could be $2.3 million. We can just are the agency authorized and responsible for these say that's what it is. I'll give you that one. kinds of investigations, so you are correct. So the $100,000 was a one-time commitment to carry out the task force on investigation. I don't think that's L. Popham: How much funding is given to the an annual amount, as far as I understand. That's for this BCSPCA to fulfil this legislated responsibility? year only. I do know about the lottery, and I know that [1725] disqualifies them from getting gaming grants. There still seems to be quite a big gap in what it costs Hon. D. McRae: Up to this year the BCSPCA received them to investigate and do their cruelty investigations. $250,000 a year in gaming grants for the spay and neuter It seems curious to me that the rest of the requirement program. I guess over the period of this program we were would be made up by donations by the public, as far as able to give $3.7 million to the BCSPCA for the good I can see. I guess I'm wondering: are there any other work that they do in this province. I was also pleased, as jurisdictions that structure the funding for legislative Minister of Agriculture this year, to delegate $100,000 to responsibilities by donation? the BCSPCA for their efforts in this investigation. [1735] One piece I also wanted to bring up…. I'm sure the member opposite is also very aware that we also offer Hon. D. McRae: After extensive consultation with my the BCSPCA nominal rents of a dollar a year on Crown colleagues, we feel that the funding model is variable land. For example, the SPCA has facilities on Crown depending on the jurisdiction. There's no set way that land in Quesnel, Cranbrook and Parksville. other provinces are doing it. Some have various funding models that they apply, and it works for them. For the L. Popham: Specifically, the animal cruelty investi- past X number of years the funding model, I think, has gations that the BCSPCA is legislated to do — it's my worked decently for British Columbia in its relationship understanding that costs $2.5 million a year to fulfil. with the BCSPCA. How much of that specific line item does the province I'm sure the member opposite knows that this min- contribute? istry has a good relationship with the BCSPCA. We're in contact, especially with the head of the BCSPCA, Hon. D. McRae: Just for clarity, I'm sure it's not a Craig Daniell, who actually at this time I would like to big deal, but I think the member opposite used the say thank you to, very much — for an individual who number of $2.5 million for investigation. We work has obviously a very busy schedule and a big organiza- from the figure of $2.3 million for animal cruelty in- tion to run. His efforts on the Sled Dog Task Force with vestigations. If we can work together, maybe we'll get Barbara Steele and the minister, now of Environment, some clarity. were efforts that were so appreciated not just by this 6736 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 5, 2011

ministry or by this government but by the citizens of service plan there are 69 action items. I'm proud to say British Columbia. that 29 are in progress, 32 are completed — which gives Sometimes we don't get along in the political world a percentage of 89 percent of the action items that are at here, but I think it's fair to say that the work coming out that stage — seven are ones that we haven't started and of that task force was top-notch, and it's going to be of one we're no longer pursuing. I'm very proud to say that benefit to animals and our citizens in this province for the Ministry of Agriculture has, like I said, completed or years to come. is in the process of completing 89 percent of the action But from that, we have that good relationship with items that we have laid out within our service plan. the BCSPCA and with Craig Daniell. We basically want I believe that the member opposite is talking about to continue having those dialogues and look for ways the plan that was to contribute a million dollars a year that we can support the organization and the good to promote local agriculture products and develop work they do. a B.C. brand. While the dollars are not available this year — obviously due, like the member opposite said, L. Popham: I'm going to switch now to promotion of to the tough economic times — we're hoping that the our products. I probably have how many minutes left Minister of Finance will find dollars available. We will — ten, 20? continue to bring forward that request, and if the dol- Promotion of our products. So what I'd like to know lars become available, we would hope to go forward on is: how much are we spending to promote our products that program. globally, and how much are we spending domestically? L. Popham: This will be my final question.I also want Hon. D. McRae: There are approximately four FTEs to say at this point that it's been a pleasure doing esti- that promote B.C. agriculture both domestically and mates with the new Minister of Agriculture. Thank you internationally. Some examples we could use are farm- very much. It's been great to have a conversation. ers markets and the Asia-Pacific trade mission. But as At this point I guess my question is to the minister well, the employees of the Ministry of Agriculture, like as a new minister. Now you've had time to review the many, many ministries within this government…. It's so budget for agriculture. You've had time to go out and hard to quantify either a percentage of time or a dollar meet some of the stakeholders. Does the Minister of amount, because depending on the resources needed by Agriculture feel that the current budget is sufficient to individuals or dependent on the resources needed by an properly support agriculture in B.C.? industry organization and the expertise or the questions [1745] or supports they may need, it's just not something that we track on a specific basis. Hon. D. McRae: Like I'm sure every minister would One thing I'm really proud of is that the ministry staff say, you could always use more resources, so I will con- are more than willing…. They're very passionate about tinue to advocate for more. But it's also the balance that their job, and they will step up and use their skills and government has to achieve. services to support industry organizations and farmers in I'd like to take this time, as well, to say how impressed their ability to try to basically grow B.C. agriculture, both I am with the work done by this ministry and its staff. domestically…. But to put a dollar amount would be, I'm I was told I would be impressed by the calibre of the sure, almost impossible. You'd have to basically look at individuals and their talents that they bring to the gov- the calls that a staffer might make every day or take every ernment and agriculture in this province. I can say that day. They could range in a huge range of questions. to a person they are true to their word. They're abso- So my apologies, but I just think that we'd probably lutely phenomenal, and I think we're very lucky in the have to devote more staffers just to track it than it would ministry to have a staff as phenomenal as we do. be to actually grow the industry. We're committed to partnering with industry and [1740] other governments to leverage dollars as best we can. I'm sure the member opposite is familiar with Growing L. Popham: When I was going through the agri- Forward, which allowed the government of British culture plan, I did get an update on what has been Columbia and Ministry of Agriculture, working with completed. One of the things that I noticed had been the federal government, to basically bring $558 million left out due to tough economic times was a marketing between 2008 and 2013 into this province to support program for our local products within our province. agriculture. I'm wondering if there's a plan to bring that back within Right now the negotiations are ongoing for Growing the next year or two. Forward 2, which will basically evolve beyond Growing Forward. So we're hoping that we'll see the half a bil- Hon. D. McRae: Thank you to the member opposite lion dollars that we can use to invest in agriculture for allowing me to summarize the action items. In the — encourage innovation, encourage marketing, basically Thursday, May 5, 2011 British Columbia Debates 6737

encouraging agriculture to see over the last…. So by the this long, and without actually having someone tell me time Growing Forward 2 is lapsed, that will be a ten-year to shut up. program with over a billion dollars to support agricul- ture, which would be, obviously, the most dollars ever The Chair: I'm about to. [Laughter.] put into agriculture by any government in the history of British Columbia. Hon. D. McRae: So taking the cue from the Chair, I'm proud to be the minister of this great ministry. I who is looking so fine in his robes…. Do I have to do look forward to serving the people of British Columbia something with the vote at the end? today and far into the future and leaving a legacy of strong farming for this province. The Chair: No. Hearing no further questions, I'll now As we wrap it up with the last question here, I'd like to call Vote 14. thank the member opposite. I can honestly say that this is the most enjoyable estimates I have ever done as well. Vote 14: ministry operations, $52,297,000 — approved. I think it's a pleasure to work with someone who is so keen on agriculture and so passionate about it. The Chair: While I'm frightened to, I'll recognize the I'm sure that you know, as I've mentioned before, the Minister of Agriculture. door…. I would say it's always open, but sometimes people are inside already. But the door is open, and Hon. D. McRae: You used to be my friend. please, if you feel there are issues that you would like I move Vote 15. to talk to me about, I am always more than willing to talk to you or your colleagues about what we can do as Vote 15: Agricultural Land Commission, $1,974,000 a province to support agriculture, because at the end — approved. it's what we want to see. We want to see agriculture flourish. And you know what? Sometimes things are Hon. D. McRae: Chair, I move that the committee more important than politics, and agriculture is one rise, report resolutions and completion of the Ministry of them. of Agriculture, and ask leave to sit again. I'd like to also take this time to say to my support staff around me: thank you so very much, both behind here Motion approved. and in the back there. You've done a phenomenal job. I don't think in my life I have ever talked this much and The committee rose at 5:50 p.m.

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