Stable Views--Voices and Stories from the Thoroughbred Racetrack Archie Green Fellows Project, 2012-2013 (AFC 2012/034: 00270) Archive of Folk Culture, American Folklife Center, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C.

Cleveland Johnson interview, 2012-06-14 : interview conducted by Ellen E. McHale

INTERVIEW LOG

00:10 Stabled at Aqueduct Racetrack

00:25 Only African American trainer left in New York. Worked as an Assistant Trainer in 1982. Worked for John Lenzini, Jr. [John Joseph Butch Lenzini] Johnson was the only Black Assistant Trainer at the time. At that time, it was all Blacks elsewhere. [Cleveland Johnsons chair comes apart and there is a moment of laughter.]

01:36 Johnson worked in Boston right after High School in 1970, in Boston. He began as a groom and then became the Assistant Trainer.

02:13 Johnson started riding match races on Saturdays and Sundays.

2:38 To earn money he was minding horses from the age of 8. Now he is 61 years old. After High School in 1970, he left home and landed in Boston and met Butch Lenzini. Started as a groom. In 1978, Johnson became an Assistant Trainer. He came to NYC in 1982. There was one Black trainer at the time, Chester Ross, who has since died.

04:00 The change in population is that more money is now available and the career is attractive to other people.

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4:13 People have college educations and can speak well. The old horse people are gone.

04:50 Cleveland was born and raised in the South. It was rough back in the day. He was born in the 1950s. He met his trainer in Boston. And he took him under his wing. Johnson reflects on the fact that Lenzini, (a white man), took him everywhere. In 1972 he trained for an owner named Cheevers, who took him to hockey and basketball games. Lenzini was a father figure. Cleveland worked for him for 19 years. He put a lot of faith in Cleveland.

06:28 They were stabled at Aqueduct. 18 Grooms worked for Lenzini and he was training 36 horses that were stabled at Aqueduct and Meadowland in New Jersey. From 1982-1989 they won frequently – first, second, and third. Cleveland did the hiring and firing for Lenzini. He worked for him for 19 years.

07:58 Talks about why he left working for Lenzini involving problems with his financial records. A lot of owners took their horses away from Butch as a result. 09:20 He went on his own in 1989 and has been training 4-6 horses. Its been up and down since then.

09:37 He says his race is not an issue.

09:43 Owners dont want to look at the stats now. (taps the table for emphasis) Trainers have to win 20% or better. But you have to have horses to do that.

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10:10 Cleveland is stabled at Aqueduct and races all year round. Cleveland races at Aqueduct, Belmont, and Saratoga. Its a hard life but its all he knows.

10:39 Johnson talks about the death of a friend – E. J. Perrodin (aged 56) – who was the son of the man who got Johnson started at age eight. E.J. started working for his father when he was 5 or 6 years old. He was one of the top riders back home.

11:31 Racing isnt being introduced to Blacks.

11:49 Race doesnt come into it. People say, Cleveland, you dont have the numbers. You have to win 18% of the time or better. When he worked for Butch they were winning at 36%. People would seek Lenzini out based on his winning. Johnson talks about people choosing trainers based on winning races. Color is not an issue – winning races is. Right now Cleveland is winning one race in 12. That is bad but he has no horse stock.

13:58 He says Butch used to say, You cant make chicken salad with chicken shit. Its the horses who make a trainer successful. Johnson says that trainers have make trainers feel good. Trainers have to lie to owners and not tell them that their horses are not good. Owners dont want to hear the truth about their horses, not being a good horse. To be a good trainer, you have to have the stock

15:08 Cleveland has 3 horses right now with 2 owners. One year, early 1990s he was winning at 36%. He didnt publicize that. He says you have to sell yourself as a trainer – let people know about your wins. Hed rather get up in the morning and go to work with the horses.

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16:18 Talks about family involvement in training. He has 3 cousins involved with horses back home in Louisiana. When he started out at the age of 8, it was he and his brother, Paul. His brother went into the service and isnt involved with horses at all.

17:10 Johnson talks about life in Louisiana. People ask him why he doesnt go back home to train. He says everything closes down at

11:00 p.m. You can't get a bite to eat late at night. He came here in 1982.

18:00 He's from 13 miles west of Lafayette – from Rayne, LA. Calvin Borel is from Lafayette. Many riders are from the same area.

19:11 Mark Guidry was the first rider to leave Louisiana.

20:13. In 1982, Blacks were grooms, shift foremen,and only one assistant trainer. At that time, he was looking for other African Americans but they were only in specific roles. A lot of the old timers were happy for him as an assistant trainer. They said, youre the only Black here. He went to the track with a suit on and people were happy for him.

21:32 When he first started coming to the track, the old-timers were very helpful – how to handle a horse, what he was doing wrong.

21:58 Butch Lenzini saw something in him when he was a kid. In Boston, Cleveland was taking care of 4 horses and a pony and was making $185.00/week in 1970. When he was a kid, at 8 years old, his

4 cousin and he were making $5.00/week. He was reminiscing with his cousin about that recently.

23:00 Butch Lenzini saw he was a hard worker and he hired him and took care of him. He took him to see the Boston Bruins and to baseball games. Lenzini took him out with him. Cleveland became in charge of everything – who was going to ride and so on. People would come in for a job and theyd say, Go see V.

24:16 Wonders aloud about why there are no African Americans at the racetrack. 1 percent are African American, maybe.

24:29 When the money came in, African Americans were no longer in the jobs. Young people arent being introduced to the game. The only place you see Blacks on horses is in the South, not up North. He mentions that there are Blacks at the Fairground, [the track which is near New Orleans].

25:07 He said hed do it (the job) again. Talks about childhood. He had a barn in his backyard and his father told him that his grandfather had horses. In the past there was cock-fighting, wrestling, and horse-racing and boxing . Horse racing was number one. Thats what the Master wanted.

26:15 Johnsons grandfather only spoke French. Cleveland had four sisters and four brothers. He grew up speaking French. His mother died when he was six. He worked at horses all the time while he was growing up. Now he is 61 years old.

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27:04. His first horse he owned was in the early 1970s. He got his trainers license at 21 years old. Johnson talks about the difficulty of getting a training license. "Boy, what are you going to do with a license?" He had to take a hard test.

28:01 Back in 1989, Johnson went out and got some horses from an owner at Aqueduct. There were no stalls. They sent him to Saratoga. You had to have horses to run. Is hasn't been easy but he hasn't given up. You have to have a horse that can run to be able to get a stall.

29:09 People say, "why dont you go back home Why dont you go to a smaller track?" He says he'll continue as long as he can pay the rent.

29:32 Johnson picks up horses at the airport when they come in from overseas. He takes them off the plane and puts them on a van and rides the van Upstate – to Newburgh. Then he comes back in the morning around 6:00 and goes to Aqueduct to train his horses. He has a groom at Aqueduct for his horses. He sleeps until about 9:00 and then he goes to Aqueduct. It isn't easy.

30:37 Johnsons father only had a 3rd grade education and he told him to "Go to School." Now Johnson knows why he told him that.

31:07 As a kid, Cleveland wanted to be a trainer. At eight, he was too heavy to be a rider. He weighed 70 pounds. Back in those days there were four to five tracks within a 50 mile radius. Johnsons been around horses all his life. It's hard to get away from.

32:05 Johnsons coming to Saratoga this year, but not with his horses. He ran a horse in Saratoga two years ago and his horse won a race. First

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African American to win a race at Saratoga. In 1982, the only Black trainer was Chester Walls. Johnson asked him a lot of questions.

33:29 Now, the vet has all the answers. Six different vets have 6 answers. Training is common sense. The horse isn't going to tell you its problem. Johnson talks about the need to have horses to get the numbers. You have to win. Cleveland only calls a vet when he needs to. He uses a lot of home remedies that hes learned from old-timers. Johnson talks about other trainers and their methods, especially those with many horses at many different tracks. When Cleveland was growing up, Woody Stevenson (who won five Belmont Stakes) said, "You can't train what you can't see." He talks about people giving their horses to big- name trainers. Their horses can be anywhere – all over the country.

39:20 He talks about trainers telling owners that their horses are alright when they're not. Talks about a specific horse and incidents regarding training. You got to have the horses. Cleveland has the knowledge but not the horses. It's a crap shoot. Johnson talks about training a specific horse and how it is training well. The horse is ok one day, the next day the horse falls and has a fractured knee. It's the first time that Johnson cried over a horse. Johnson talks about the injury. Johnson kept the horse in the stall for a month. Hell have him back racing on the first of August. Johnson talks about the money he would have gotten. That's the way it goes.

47:58. End of Interview.

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