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Home , Berimbau, Codona, Don Cherry (trumpeter), Egberto Gismonti, Milton Nascimento, Nana Vasconcelos

with trio manari Evening Concert Naná Vasconcelos Friday, 9:00 p.m. The Voice of the By Greg Beyer

aná Vasconcelos is one of ’s Robinson published “The Nature of Naná” at Carnaval time. The deep sounds of most famous percussionists, and is in Modern Drummer, roughly coinciding those drums, like thunder, have stayed Nprobably the world’s most famous with Naná’s departure from New York with me and have influenced a lot of my virtuoso of the berimbau. His musical career and relocation to . In that insightful instrument choices. I have a lot of low spans over five decades, and the list of mu- interview, Naná points to the berimbau as sounds—the , the talking drum, the sicians with whom he has collaborated and the instrument that has guided his musi- berimbau…this thing about the drone, recorded is enormous. His most famous cal development and career: “Everything the OM. [Naná begins intoning, “OM.”] and noteworthy projects include work with I do stems from the berimbau. Sometimes For me, this runs deep. , his trio (Colin I ask myself, ‘Why me? Why was I given I started playing music professionally Walcott, , and Naná), the Pat the berimbau and why do I play it the way with my father, Pierre, at local dance Metheny Group, , Jan I do?’ The berimbau is the main thing that cabarets when I was 12 years old. I was Garbarek, and his own solo recordings. influences all of my percussion playing.” banging pots and pans around the house, For the past eight years, Vasconcelos has Over a period of three days, from August so my mother allowed my father to take been living and working in his hometown 19–21, 2007, Naná invited me into his home me to work with him. We needed to of Recife, capital of the northeastern state of simply to spend time getting to know one obtain a special police permit for me to Pernambuco, Brazil. His current undertak- another. His gracious and generous man- enter these establishments, and I wasn’t ings include the formation of a new band ner led to a three-hour interview session in allowed to leave the stage! With my of talented young musicians with whom which he revealed once again his mercu- father we played a lot of Cuban dance he has recorded the album Chegadas (2005) rial character, his fascination with nature, music, and my first instruments were and who is currently developing a second sound and music, and his energy and rever- maracas and bongo. record; yearly Carnaval activities as the ence for the creative spirit. Soon after I began to listen to a lot of master of opening ceremonies, working American through the radio station with the 1,600+ drummers involved in the GB: To begin, can you briefly talk about your Voice of America. My heroes were people local maracatu groups; and a project with early musical experiences growing up? like , Thelonious Monk, children’s choir and symphony orchestra, NV: My earliest musical memory comes and Dave Brubeck. I bought myself a ABC Musical. from the maracatus that are an important drumset and taught myself how to play His last published interview in an Ameri- part of African culture in Recife. These it. can journal dates from July 2000. N. Scott drumming groups come out to perform It is funny because I won a competition here in Recife. I won best drummer just because I could play in different time sig- natures. I used to listen to a lot of Dave Brubeck’s quartet—“Take Five,” “Blue Rondo a la Turk,” all those things in five, seven, nine, etc. And so I put all these dif- ferent time signatures into the .

GB: So the music of Dave Brubeck influenced you to start playing Brazilian musical styles in odd time signatures? NV: Yes, Dave Brubeck influenced me to start thinking that way. It was Brubeck, Paul Desmond, Joe Morello—that band. This was one side of the development

P of my style. The other side was . I hoto had the whole culture of the candomblés.

by I knew all the rhythms of the African E

rin orixás and I put those on my drums. L e ss r GB: But eventually you stopped playing the drums in favor of percussion. Let’s talk about Naná Vasconcelos with Greg Beyer your work with the berimbau. You began percussive notes 48 OCTOBER 2007 Naná playing with Trio Nordeste. Recife, 1968.

playing the instrument because of a theatre going to Rio for one week to play in a show in Recife called A Memoria dos Can- festival, O Brazil canta no Rio, and I never tadores (Memory of the Singers). What year came back. It has always been like that, was that show? you know. I just leave. When I went to NV: It was in 1964–65, during the great the States it was also like that. , too. period of musical theatre here in Brazil. I convinced a composer I was working The show was meant as a way to show with that the drummers in Rio didn’t all the different folk musics and cultures know how to play maracatu, so he from around the Northeast of Brazil. So invited me to go to this festival with him. there was music from Ceará in the north, In the middle of the festival there was a Amazonas also in the north, and then the party at Milton Nascimento’s house, and Northeast, Paraíba, Alagoas, and then Geraldo Azevedo, whom I had worked finally Bahia. was the music with in A Memoria dos Cantadores, intro- chosen to represent Bahia. So for this I duced me to Milton. started to learn berimbau. GB: Did you know Milton’s music already? GB: So you were in your early twenties when NV: No. I knew about his reputation. There you started playing the berimbau. Did you was a big buzz around him already. travel to Bahia to find your instrument? Everyone was talking about the new NV: No, I found it here in the market in thing, Milton Nascimento. He had a new Recife. Capoeira is common here, too, way to harmonize, to think about music. although Salvador is the recognized capi- Everyone at that time was playing bossa tal of capoeira. For the show, I learned nova, and Milton was something else, the music of capoeira, but there are very something different. I liked that, because few rhythms involved in traditional play. I felt that I, too, had something different But after Memoria dos Cantadores, the to say, in the sense that my drumming berimbau stayed with me, and I started was different than what everybody was to think that it didn’t have to only play playing in Rio. I wasn’t going to play the those rhythms. bossa nova that way because I couldn’t play it that way, but I knew different GB: You moved from Recife to Rio, where you things coming from the Northeast. met Milton Nascimento and that changed the So Geraldo introduced me to Milton, course of your career. and I told him, “Listen, I came here to NV: I never “left” Recife! [laughs] I was just play with you.” [laughs]

percussive notes 49 OCTOBER 2007 GB: The story is that you jammed with him on goes outward. So the sound of the berim- was very difficult in Brazil to find pots and pans from the kitchen on his tune bau takes you to a calm place where you wire. I had to find somebody who was a “Sentinela.” can be quiet inside yourself. You can piano tuner and beg them for wire! NV: Yes, and his response was, “Hey, what listen to your inner silence. It is like a So the berimbau was incredibly impor- are you doing on Monday?” So I started meditation almost; the sound makes you tant for me, because it made me realize to compose rhythms for his songs. so peaceful and at the same time it strikes that I have something that others don’t very deep. The sound of the berimbau is have. It gave me the voice to contribute GB: The berimbau was one of many instru- very deep. You have to really get in, get something original to a given context. ments you used when you recorded with in very deep to feel it. I could suddenly play with jazz musi- Nascimento. What was it about the berimbau It is a very simple instrument, but it is cians in an original way. Shortly after I that drew you to it, that made you start to very deep, very rich. Something of nature recorded with Milton, I played with Gato adapt your drumset ideas to this instrument? is in that sound. Barbieri, and he gave me a little solo dur- NV: Well, when I moved to Rio I lived in an ing the concert, and there I realized that I apartment, so it was impossible for me GB: I understand that you made your own had something totally different. to play drums! So I started to play the instrument—that the instrument you picked Then I started to think about how I berimbau. And it drew me in. up in the market in Recife is not the same could develop my ideas on the berimbau. The berimbau is very spiritual. The instrument you play today. And the berimbau started to give me sound of the berimbau comes from inside. NV: I started to think about the soul of ideas that I could translate to the other And the whole connection—the energy the berimbau, and something told me instruments that I play—, cuica, is in the chakra here [Naná indicates his I needed to make my own instrument. , other instruments I made chest and lung cavity]. Before, I didn’t So when I was living in Rio, I went to myself, thinking about sounds. know about these things, but even then I the forest, cut my own beriba wood, felt something, some energy here [again prepared the wood just so… I did every- GB: And thinking also about imagery? You he indicates his chest and this time ex- thing. I even discovered at that time that mention Villa-Lobos as an important influ- hales deeply and slowly]. My chest, my the wire should be . I already ence… heart, everything leaves from here and thought about that at that time. And it NV: Yes, Villa-Lobos’ compositions are very powerful visually. In the “tocatta” of “Ba- chianas Brasileiras no. 2,” he imagined a trenzinho caipira. He wrote everything on the page, and yet it sounds like he’s constructed a train, and he puts you inside, and from the train you can see the entire Brazilian landscape. It is amazing. Villa-Lobos’ music has this power, and I do try to put that imagery into my music. I’ve known his music for a long time. My father listened to him in the house, so I knew this music from my childhood.

GB: Did you talk to your father about this imagery? NV: No, my father died when I was very young. He never saw me play the drums; he never saw me play all these things.

GB: The earliest examples of your work with the berimbau in the music of Milton Nasci- mento are two bonus tracks on a re-released version of Milton (1970). On both of these tracks, “Tema de Tostão” and “O Homem da Sucursal,” the tuning of the instrument is identical and seems to bear to no relationship to the prevailing harmony of the music you are playing. Were you thinking about tuning at that time? NV: No, not yet. It was just an instrument. It was only later when I started to think about writing pieces for the instrument that I thought about tuning the berim- bau. percussive notes 50 OCTOBER 2007 GB: Pieces that resulted in your first solo in between those two projects. A lot of the wire and the verga. I used these sounds album, Africadeus (1972)? rhythmic language is very similar on both when I recorded Africadeus. NV: Yes. With the berimbau I started to feel records, but it is the quality of sound that Later, in the mid-’70s, I was on tour like I was on a mission. First I started to has so drastically changed. with Don Cherry and we had a perfor- experiment with different rhythms—dif- NV: Yes, all those aspects became clearer. mance in Klagenfurt, Austria. During ferent from capoeira. That was scary at After Africadeus, I started to play with down time, I went to the middle of a first, because the berimbau in Brazil is a lot of excellent musicians: Egberto nearby forest and again worked all these capoeira. And capoeira is a tradition, and Gismonti, Don Cherry, Colin Walcott. sounds. Then suddenly the cabaça began nobody can fool around with tradition— Working with other instrumentalists led to speak to me. There were two voices. a tradition you must respect, because me to the idea that I wanted to make a One was agitated and aggressive: “Ah- it has to do with religion, with Africa. I concerto for the berimbau with strings. ba-di-ga, ah-ba-di-ga, ah-ba-di-ga” [Naná was scared to play berimbau differently That led to Saudades. rapidly sings this phrase in high voice because people would say, “Oh, you are Let me tell you a crazy story about the while playing a fast tremolo with the messing with tradition.” So I started to berimbau from those years. In my early baqueta on the side of the cabaça]. The play these solos more outside of Brazil, explorations with the berimbau, I spent other was murmuring and mumbling rather than inside. a lot of time working on the wire, on the [Naná rubs the baqueta on the side of the verga (bow), on rhythmic patterns and cabaça in slow, soft circles, while softly GB: Shortly after these early Milton recordings more virtuosic playing. I used to spend mumbling unintelligible short phrases you did, in fact, leave Brazil. hours and hours doing this, and one day in Portuguese]. So these two guys were NV: Because of the work I did with Milton, the berimbau began to speak to me. I was carrying on, and then suddenly an Indian I started to get a lot of phone calls. Gato working, working, working, and then came to me from the depth of the forest Barbieri, the Argentinean jazz saxophone when I finally came out from playing so and said, “And now, I am here…” [Naná player, asked me to do a tour of Argen- hard, I needed to come up for air, I physi- begins to slowly spin circles around the tina with him. Less than a week into the cally needed to breathe. So I hit the open gourd with the baqueta] “and I sound tour, he asked if I wanted to go to New wire and simultaneously breathed out, like this” [Naná begins to whistle a high York City to record an album. Suddenly “wah-wah…” pitch that slowly descends]. I was in New York City, and I ended up “Ooh!” [with surprise] Suddenly the staying there for ten months. voice of the berimbau had opened up to GB: Those are instantly recognizable as your Then I went on a tour with Gato me; its voice came through me. It said, sounds. In other words, the spirit of the through , and at the end of the “Wah-wah” [Naná plays open tone on the berimbau spoke to you. tour I had this feeling. We played in wire], “psiu,” [he plays a hammer-on and NV: Yes, the berimbau spoke to me. These Rome, and then flew back to Paris to -off with the coin], and then “ch-ch-ch- two guys were having a conversation catch the flight back to New York. And ch-ah-ah-ah-ah” [he plays a rapid series [Naná points to the gourd] and then the at the airport I said, “Gato, thank you for of notes first on the verga, then pressed Indian spoke, “I am here” [again Naná everything. I’m not going back to New against the inside of the wire]. That is whistles and spins circles around the York; I’m going to stay here.” Because I how I discovered these sounds from the outside of the gourd]. felt like, “I have something; I have to do something by myself.” And I thought to myself, “If nothing happens, I’ll go back to Brazil and play with Milton Nascimen- to.” But after three days in Paris, a lot of things started to happen. This guy came looking for me, Pierre Barouh, who did the film (1966). The rhythmic work I was doing with the berimbau, using odd time signatures, etc., eventually led to experimenta- tions with sounds, then the use of my voice with the berimbau. Then I started to think about composition. In Paris I wanted to put a solo show together, to show what I could do with the berimbau. And then I did Africadeus.

GB: What strikes me about Africadeus is that it seems like between 1972 and 1979, when you recorded Saudades, there is a radical difference of timbre, of sound quality, of tuning. All of these aspects of your work with berimbau seem to have clarified themselves

percussive notes 51 OCTOBER 2007 “But the sound isn’t here” [he points and Cantando Historias.] And the second yet, just the berimbau, just the to his mouth], “you have to get it from part for the strings, very angular and wire. To really show how to listen to the here” [Naná points to the gourd, and “modern”—well, that was Egberto. instrument, I needed to come up with a begins to laugh]. Getting this sound de- [laughs] I gave my ideas to him. He has theme—a way to organize my thoughts, pends upon your absolute equilibrium. conservatory training. I came from the to give time for the music to open up and You mustn’t drink, smoke, nothing. You streets; I never went to school. develop, not to show everything right must be clean. You train like this [Naná away. assumes a yoga-like pose, standing on GB: Escola de samba? Then I developed a formula: first start his right leg only, lifting his left leg up NV: [laughs] Exactly. But I know the things with the wire, then add the caxixi, then off the ground and planting the foot into that I want. I knew that I wanted to hear open up the wire to play the length of the side of the right knee], and you try cello and viola. I love these instruments it, then add the sounds of the staff and to achieve a perfect circle, and the spirit and their sounds. I love the cello. It is the gourd, then add the voice. It was a comes to you like this. fantastic. The timbre is so close to the formula to develop the whole sound of Really crazy, that story, no? human voice. The timbre of both the cello the instrument, to show how rich this and the viola match very beautifully with instrument is. [See Example 1] GB: Beautiful story. And so then you recorded congas, hand drums, berimbau. Saudades, and the concerto, “O Berimbau,” GB: When you play these extra beats or odd uses all those sounds. GB: Many of the rhythmic patterns you played time signatures, as for example in the 15/8 NV: Yes, I had Villa-Lobos and all these in “O Berimbau,” were ideas already present bar, you added a fifth beat to the phrase. Did other influences going on inside my in Africadeus. The opening triplets, for you do those things deliberately? head, and I decided I had to make a example. NV: Yes. Because I have this idea that you concerto for the berimbau. NV: Yes, true. That opening idea for me is don’t need to end one idea to start some- like an introduction, to show the instru- thing else. GB: And when you wrote “O Berimbau,” that ment. You see, at that time I had to do a was done in collaboration with Egberto Gis- solo percussion show in a theatre. And GB: You blur the lines at points of transition? monti, right? the stereotypical thought of a solo per- NV: Yes. I didn’t do this so much at that NV: Yes. I knew what themes I wanted to cussion show is lots of fast drumming [air point, but nowadays, I frequently take use in the orchestra. In the first section of drums a big mess]. phrases of seven, for example, and sud- the part, I used themes based on I wanted to make music with percus- denly change them to six, then again to traditional cattle calls from here in the sion. I don’t try to play loud or fast. four. For example [see Example 2]: interior of the Nordeste, aboios. [Naná I tried to make sounds. So with that You see, I don’t stop an idea when I begins singing themes that resemble introduction, it was just a way to make want to start another one; I just go. When melodic fragments from “O Berimbau” an opening statement. I didn’t use the I finish one it is because I’ve already

Example 1. Excerpt from “O Berimbau.” Opening figure.Saudades (1979)

poco rit. 12 . . V 8 . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ ˙wah-wah.~~~ ˙.~~~ ˙.~~~ ˙. ~~~ . f 15 12 V œœœ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ ‘ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ 8 œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ 8

12 14 V 8 œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ 8 œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ

Example 2. 7/8 to 3/4 pattern transformation.

? 7 . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . 3 . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . 8 . ¿ ¿ . 4 . ¿ . percussive notes 52 OCTOBER 2007 percussive notes 53 OCTOBER 2007 started the next. Here is another kind of GB: You have stated that everything you do opening of the second berimbau solo in thing that is a good exercise to do. It is comes from the berimbau, but perhaps it is “O Berimbau.” See Example 5.] always on beat one that you change. [See more accurate to say that your berimbau Example 3.] playing comes from the drumset. GB: Your tuning in “O Berimbau” is F. NV: Well, yes. I realized I could transpose NV: Yes, because for that instrument, the GB: The last part of “O Berimbau” is in seven. those drumset things to the berimbau. soul of the instrument, the thickness of [See Example 4.] And now it is even easier for me because the wire—where they really sound best NV: Yes, all in seven. I got a lot of that from it is just on the berimbau; I’ve got the is in F. Everything is there: the , my drumset playing, inspired by Joe whole drumset on the berimbau! [laughs] everything. Morello, the maracatu, all that. Even the —I can get that sound on the berimbau! [Naná mimics GB: The last track on Saudades is “Dado,”

Example 3. 7/8 to 3/4 to 2/4 pattern transformation.

? 7 . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . 3 . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . 2 . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . 8 ¿ ¿ 4 4

Example 4. Excerpt from “O Berimbau.” Opening passage from third berimbau solo. Saudades (1979)

4X 2X 4X 7 j ...... V 8 œ¿ . œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ . . œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ ¿ œ¿œœ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿œœ¿ œ¿ . . œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ . œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ ¿ f j j V œ¿ œ œ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ¿ œ¿ œ¿ œ¿ . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ. œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ ¿ 3X 2X 2X . . . j . . ≈ . V œ¿ œ œ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ¿ . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . . œ. œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . 2X 3X . . . . V . œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ . œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ ¿ ¿ œ¿œ œ¿ œ¿ ¿ œ¿œ œ¿ œ¿ œ¿ œ¿ œ¿ œ œœ œ œ œœ . œœœ œœœ œœœ œœœ. 2X 4X 3X . . j . . . . V . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . œ œ œ œ œ. œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ . . œ œ œ œ ≈ œ œ œ œ œ œ œ .

Example 5. Excerpt from “O Berimbau.” Opening passage from second berimbau solo. Saudades (1979)

= 124 Transcribed by Greg Beyer . q 4X with Caxixi 6 j j j 2 V 8 . œ œ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿. œ œ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿. œ œ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿. . 4 = f q . q 2 3 V 4 œ œ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ œ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ œ œ ¿ ¿ ¿ 4 ¿ ¿ ¿ œ œ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ ¿ œ > > > > > percussive notes 54 OCTOBER 2007 percussive notes 55 OCTOBER 2007 something you recorded with a special Metheny Group. Your composition, “Que there. Complete. No distractions. When berimbau. Faser,” from Codona 2 (1980) is another I play, no distractions. Nothing can take NV: When I was going to record Saudades, I very beautiful berimbau passage in 7. This my attention away. It is there. Music is left New York and I met Egberto Gismon- time, however, your tuning is in E. [See music. It is the only thing I know how ti in Copenhagen, to change flights to Example 6.] to do; it is the only thing I do in my life. go to Stuttgart to record for ECM. When NV: There I had to tune for the donso ngoni My best moment is now, and nobody I met Egberto in the airport, he said, “I and the . When I play and sing that can distract me in that. It is buried [Naná brought this berimbau Dado made for theme now in my solos, I keep the tuning points to his arms and hands as if to say, you.” Dado lived in São Paulo. He had in F or G. “buried in the muscle memory”] so it is already spoken to me on the phone and there. said, “I’m going to make a berimbau for GB: You also used the berimbau when you This is the sense of the improvising you with two strings,” and sure enough, recorded with : “Ozark” from musician. I love ECM Records, because he did. As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls. at least 80 percent of the ECM albums So I took this berimbau with me to the The tune is in C, and you have tuned to G, were done in three days—two days for hotel, and when we got there I tried to the dominant. recording and one day to mix. Saudades, tune it and tried to work with it, and it NV: [Listens to the recording and laughs.] Codona’s albums, my recordings with was just that. Yes, I had become a country and western Egberto, all of them in three days. musician! GB: It was an improvisation, then? GB: On your solo recording from 1995, NV: Yes, an improvisation, but with a GB: On that recording the sound of your caxixi Cantando Historias (Storytelling), you formula. There I played all the same and the cabaça are very clear, but the sound recorded two very beautiful tracks that rhythms and things I do with the other of the wire itself is very faint, as if you were feature the berimbau: “Clementina” and “Tu berimbau, but I tried to develop a dialog, EQ’d out of the mix. Nem Quer Saber.” “Clementina” is a sort of a conversation between the two strings. NV: That was because of the combination of samba de roda, and you wrote it in homage [Naná sings a figure high, then repeats instruments. Everybody played too much to the great samba singer Clementina de it low.] all the time! [laughs] There is berim- Jesus. bau because they wanted to have the NV: Yes, I recorded with Clementina in GB: But the tuning system didn’t work to well, berimbau, but there wasn’t much space 1973. I was living in Paris and I came so you ended up leaving the instrument to listen to the berimbau. back to Brazil to try to launch my solo behind after a while? record, Africadeus, on the Brazilian mar- NV: Yes, I got the perfect fifth. I tried GB: When you went into the recording studio ket. I ended up recording with Milton for other tunings but the instrument with these musicians, did you make most of Nascimento again, on Milagre dos Peixes. wouldn’t hold them. Eventually I these recordings in one take? stopped playing the instrument. NV: Yes, and I work like that even today GB: The first cut on that record, “Os Escravos when I record with various artists. I love de Jó,” is an angrier version of “O Homem da GB: That is a shame. The fifth—it was tuned in to record in just one take. But I listen Sucursal,” but without words. D and A—is a beautiful sound. before the session a lot. I ask for a demo, NV: The government censored his lyrics, NV: Yes… Now you’ve made me think and when I get to the studio I already and he was forced to record albums sing- about this, and you’ve made me think have my ideas. I like to walk in, record, ing melodies without words. that it is time to try to make a new piece and go home. In, out, done. for a two-stringed berimbau. I need to Pat Metheny’s Secret Story, for exam- GB: The new title: “The Slaves of Jó”? find somebody to figure out a system ple. “Doctor,” Pat likes to call me, “Doc- NV: The social climate in Brazil in the ’60s where the two strings can be attached to tor, come on, man! I have this thing for and ’70s needed words—poetry from two independent staves, or to try to split you, it is a collection of nine songs.” He their music. Composers like Gilberto the stave into two independent ends. gave them to me, and I listened to them Gil, , , all The top of the instrument would fork for a couple of days. Then I went to the of these people weren’t happy with the into two ends so that the tuning could be studio and in one session recorded nine situation. So instead of talking about love more flexible… songs, just like that. But okay, I work a and flowers and nature, like the bossa lot before at home. Don’t sleep, just work nova, the Tropicalismo movement spoke GB: Around the time of Saudades you were to get really involved. Because when I out against the social problems that were working with both Codona and the Pat get in, it is totally buried so everything is at hand. And for that a lot of people got

Example 6. Opening bars from “Que Faser.” Codona 2 (1980)

4X # # # # 7 . . . . V 4 œ¿ œ¿ œ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ¿ œ¿ œ œ¿ ¿ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ¿ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ ¿ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ œ¿ œ œ¿ percussive notes 56 OCTOBER 2007 in trouble—either put in jail or thrown Before, you would never see that. A lot orchestra of female drummers in Senegal. out of Brazil. As artists, we felt like we of people from the middle and upper And this opened a lot here in Brazil. To- were the slaves of that political environ- classes are now playing, too, and before day, for example, you have Escola Dida ment. maracatu was in Salvador playing samba reggae. Clementi- “The berimbau is a very simple exclusively Today we are in 2007; we have to finish na’s producer music from this sort of discrimination. I know it is was a friend instrument, but it is very deep, the favelas, the tradition. In India, for example, it was of Milton, morros and impossible for women to play tabla or to and he was very rich. Something of nature ghettos—from play sitar, but now they are starting to saying, “Oh, the slums. Now open this, too. you have to is in that sound.” it is all over record with the place. And GB: Here in Recife, you have a new band, with Clementina it is very good whom you’ve recorded Chegada. In your de Jesus.” So I did that recording the to see young people playing alongside live show with this group, you perform your same week as Milagre dos Peixes. electronica and the like, to make these two solos, “O Berimbau” and “Vamos pra That was her first album, and she mixtures happen. Selva,” back to back and in that order. When recorded it when she was 50 years old! you finish “O Berimbau” you pause to say to So I composed this piece for her. I was in GB: Breaking down barriers of class and of the audience, “É ele, é ele. É um Brazil que Gorée, an island off the coast of Sen- gender is something you’ve always been Brazil não conhece.” (“It is him. It is a Brazil egal. Gorée was one of the last African striving towards. When you started directing that Brazil doesn’t know.”) Were you talking ports that slaves passed through before PercPan, you invited female drummers to the about the berimbau, or were you already crossing the ocean to go to the Americas. festival, just so people would see that. prepping them for the Amazon that you evoke There is a film about my trip there by NV: Yes, to show that women can play in “Vamos pra Selva”? UNESCO called On the Other Side of the drums. To end that preconceived stereo- NV: No, I am talking about myself, and more Water. The idea of the film was mine. You type. I invited Terri Lynn Carrington, importantly, my work. I’m speaking about see, the slaves didn’t know what they Layne Redmond, and Alessandra Belloni. the hard time I had in the ’70s, trying to were going to find on the other side of N’Doudou Rose is big. He has an entire launch my own music here. It was im- the water.

GB: You left New York around 2000; what have been your main projects since then? NV: I’ve been here for seven or eight years, now. I’m hiding here! There is a very strong energy for me here. And I can be quiet here. I like to be calm, to have my ideas, and my ideas are more challenging for me. Directing the opening ceremonies for Carnaval here in Recife—I like this challenge. It is important work, because maracatu, the icon of African religion and culture here in Recife, was starting to disappear. The individual maracatus would compete with each other. I man- aged to get them to work together, and now they are coming back very strong. There are a lot of young people getting involved.

GB: How many drummers come out for the maracatus at Carnaval? NV: Sixteen hundred plus. And I’ve been doing this every year for eight years now. Every year I have a different idea about how to put things together. Sometimes I use a symphonic orchestra, for example, to put alongside these drummers. All this is very strong and good. I can help break down walls and open up doors for people. Today a lot of women come out to play drums in the maracatu.

percussive notes 57 OCTOBER 2007 possible, and it remains a struggle today. master of the hungu, the closest predecessor laughter] I’d really like to come to play I still get no radio play in Brazil, despite to the berimbau? in America again. America represents a my new album, Trilhas (2006), being NV: It was fantastic, because he represents lot for me; it is where I really developed nominated for a Grammy this year. my roots. The hungu—the way he is my career, much more so than in Brazil. I am singing about the same thing in playing, the broken bottle end over the I have had great experiences there, won- the song “Tu Nem Quer Saber.” “You thumb in place of a coin, no caxixi—was derful collaborations with great musi- don’t want to know about me, I feel this very interesting for me to experience so cians, so I’m looking forward to going pain, because you don’t want to know closely. It was fantastic, the way he is there again to meet old friends and make about yourself, and I speak with so much playing, his compositions; I would say new ones, too. love.” I’m basically saying that Brazil for both of us it was a discovery. When doesn’t want to know about Brazil. he heard my berimbau solo, he was so SOURCES Because I am Brazil. I represent Brazil all happily surprised. “What is this?” Codona, Codona 2, (ECM 1177 833 332-2, 1981). over the world. And no one here pays And it is because of these experiences Daniel, Artênius. “5ª Bienal - Entrevista Exclu- attention to this Brazil that I propagate that I continue to ask myself, “Why me?” siva: Naná Vasconcelos fala sobre música, all over the world. It is Brazil when I I am so happy to do this work with the África e Brasil,” www.une.org.br/home3/cul- play; what I play is Brazilian. They don’t berimbau. I wish other Brazilians would tura/cultura_2007/m_6916.html (accessed know about my work here, they never take pride in our culture and do this September 3, 2007). play it on the radio, there are never any work—with the berimbau, with all the Lucey, Roger. Guardians of the Bow. South Africa: commercials—but this is Brazilian. But percussion instruments. Very few are. Interalios Pictures, 2006. the system is like that. Marcos Suzano and his pandeiro playing Metheny, Pat: As falls Wichita, so falls Wichita is a great example of someone who is Falls. (ECM 1190, 1980). GB: But the audience seemed to really be enjoy- pushing an instrument in new directions Napolitano, Giuliana. “Naná Vasconcelos: músi- ing your live show. and playing it in varied contexts, and this ca à flor da pele.”Batera 3, no. 24 (August NV: Yes, they love the show, but I’m not is wonderful. 1999): 72–75. talking about the people, I’m talking Neves, Daniel A. “Berimbau bateu camará! about the system. You never hear my GB: You have mentioned that you felt like you Salve, Naná!” Modern Drummer Brasil, no. 12 music on the radio, or that of Egberto, or were on a mission with the berimbau. Do you (1997): 18–24, 26–27. , or even Milton—espe- still feel that way? Nascimento, Milton. Milton (EMI 830433-2, cially instrumental music. NV: Yes. There is still so much to discover 1970). there. I have been thinking about com- ______. Milagre dos Peixes (EMI 790790 GB: You mention that Brazil is a very special posing another piece like “O Berimbau,” 2, 1973). country because it contains multiple streams but it is difficult for me to get away Robinson, N. Scott. “Naná Vasconcelos: The of African culture that mixed together in from the things I’ve already done with Nature of Naná.” Modern Drummer, 24, no. 7 ways that never would have happened in the instrument. Not just in terms of (July 2000): 98–108. Africa, and that there things that exist here in rhythms—that would be no problem, Star, Edy. “..eu com Naná Vasconcelos, e o Trio Brazil that no longer survive in Africa. I could do another piece in seven or Nordeste...” NV: Brazil was a force of change. Because whatever—but sounds and how to make http://staredy.blogspot.com/2007/07/blog- a lot of these roots, when they arrived the sound become different, maybe by post_6514.html (accessed September 1, 2007). here, they found each other and mixed. mixing the sound with my voice. And Vasconcelos, Naná. Africadeus. (Saravah SH The samba is a result of that. So when not with electronics either, but doing 10039, 1972). Africans come here, they say, “Oh, that everything live. ______. Saudades (ECM 1147 78118- instrument comes from Africa, but I’ve I like this kind of challenge. So, yes, 21147-2, 1979). never seen it played that way or in that I’ve been thinking to do a new berimbau ______. Cantando Historias (EMI 7243 8 context.” Brazil is unique that way. piece, maybe for my next album! 33444 2 0, 1995). When I travel to Africa to play, people say, “Wow. We gave something GB: I look forward to seeing you with Trio to Brazil, and you’ve come back with it Manari at PASIC 2007. transformed, organized, modern, very NV: I’m excited about Trio Manari. They Greg Beyer was second-prize winner of the arranged.” This is the reaction I get from are young. They come from the north of 2002 Geneva International Solo Percussion African audiences. Because in Africa the Brazil, from Belém. They represent an en- Competition and he has given solo per- traditions they had have largely stayed tirely new thing, a new proposition. They formances and master classes throughout the same or have gone extinct. are propagating the percussion music the United States, Europe, from the Amazon, from the jungle. The and China. Of primary importance to him GB: Roger Lucey’s Guardians of the Bow carimbó, the marimbó—these are fascinat- is his project, Arcomusical, dedicated to the superbly documents your 2004 tour with ing rhythms that the rest of the world advancement of the berimbau in contempo- Kituxi, Inoscencio Gonçalves, and Victor doesn’t know yet. rary music. Beyer is a founding member Gama, performing your musical bows in of the flute/percussion duo, Due East, and Angola, Mozambique, and in Durban, South GB: Is there anything else you’d like to share he teaches at Northern Illinois University, Africa. What was that experience like, to be with us before we wrap up? where he is an Assistant Professor of Per- playing side by side with Kituxi, the famous NV: Watch out! I’m coming! [hysterical cussion in the School of Music. PN percussive notes 58 OCTOBER 2007 percussive notes 59 OCTOBER 2007