Third Session -Thirty-F ifthLeg islature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD)

39-40 Elizabeth II

Publishedunder the authorityof The HonourableDenis C. Rocan Speaker

VOL. XLI No. 79 • 1 :30 p.m., THURSDAY, JUNE 4, 1992

ISSN 0542-5492 Printedthe by Office of the Q.,_,s Printer. Province of Manitoba MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY Thirty-F ifth Legislature

Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ALCOCK, Reg Osborne Liberal ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARRETT,Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHEEMA, Guizar The Maples Liberal CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CONNERY, Edward Portage Ia Prairie PC CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Clif Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NDP HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold Rossmere PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob TurtleMountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. FortGarry PC WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP 4198

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, June4, 1992

The House met at 1 :30 p.m. Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, in a manner similar to that ofthe Office ofthe Ombudsman; and PRAYERS WHEREAS pursuant to the Child and Family ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS ServicesAct Standards, the agency worker is to be the advocate for a child in care; and PRESENTING PETITIONS WHEREAS there is a major concern that child Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I welfare workers, due to their vested interest as beg to present the petition of Wayne Arthur, Marika employees within the service system, cannot Sokulski, Catherine Collins and others requesting perform an independentadvocacy role; and the government reconsider its decisions and return the Manitoba Heritage Federation's granting WHEREAS pure advocacy will only be obtained authority. through an independent and external agency; and Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Mr. WHEREAS the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Raymond Gilleshammer) has unsatisfactorily dealt with T. Pepper, Rosa L. Dutka, Susan Dutka and others complaints lodged against child welfare agencies; requesting the government consider reviewing the and now funding of the Brandon General Hospital to avoid THEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that layoffsand cutbacks to vital services. the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba strongly urge Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg the provincial government to consider establishing to present the petition of Derek Sanderson, Wayne an Office of the Children's Advocate which will be McKay, Fabian Houle and others requesting the independent of cabinet and report directly to the government show its commitment to aboriginal Legislative Assembly ofManitoba. self-government by considering reversing its position on the AJJ by supporting the *** recommendations within its jurisdiction and implementing a separate and parallel justice I have reviewed the petition of the honourable system. member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), and it complies READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS with the privileges and practices of theHouse and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the have the petition read? honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs). It complies with the privileges and The petition of the undersigned citizens of the practicesof the House and complies with the rules. province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? WHEREAS the Dutch elm disease control The petition of the undersigned residents of the program is of primary importance to the protection Province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: of the city's many elm trees; and WHEREAS the Provinceof Manitoba announced WHEREAS the Minister of Natural Resources that it would establish an Office of the Children's himself stated that, "It is vital that we continue our Advocate in its most recent throne speech and active fight against Dutch elm disease in Manitoba, " allocated funds for this Office in its March '92 and budget; and WHEREAS, despite that verbal commitment, the WHEREAS the Kimelman Report (1983), the government of Manitoba has cut its funding to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry (1991 ) and the Suche city's OED control program by half of the 1990 level, Report (1992) recommended that the province a move that will jeopardize the survival of establish such an office reporting directly to the Winnipeg's elm trees. 4199 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that The AJI delivered its reportin August of 1991 and the government of Manitoba may be pleased to concluded that the justice system has been a request the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. massive failure for aboriginal people; and Enns) to consider restoring the full funding of the The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of Dutch elm disease control program to the previous aboriginal self-government and the right of level of 1990. aboriginal communities to establish an aboriginal As in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray. justice system; and *** The Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commission of Canada, among many others, also I have reviewed the petition of the honourable recommend both aboriginal self-government and a member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett),and it complies separate and parallel justice system; and with the privileges and practices of the House and On January 28, 1992, five months afterreleasing complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to the report, the provincial government announced it have the petition read? was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the The petition of the undersigned citizens of the recommendations; and province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: Despite the All-Party Task Force Report which THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good endorsed aboriginal self-government, the provincial citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in government now rejects a separate and parallel today'sworld; and justice system, an Aboriginal Justice Commission and many other key recommendations which are It is the responsibility of the government to solely within provincial jurisdiction. recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Provinceof Manitoba may be Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse pleased to request that the government of Manitoba campaign raise public awareness and necessary show a strong commitment to aboriginal funds to deal with crime; and self-government by considering reversing its The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against position on the AJI by supporting the Child Abuse campaign will hamper the effortsof all recommendations within its jurisdiction and good citizens to help abused children. implementing a separate and parallel justice system. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be TABLING OF REPORTS pleasedto request thatthe government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to Child Abuse campaign. table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the 1992-1993 Departmental * (1335) Expenditure Estimates for the Department of *** Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister responsible for I have reviewed the petition of the honourable and charged with the administration of The Civil member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), and it complies Service Act) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to table with the privileges and practices of the House and today the Supplementary Information for Legislative complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to Review for 1992-1993 Departmental Expenditure have the petition read? Estimates of the Manitoba Civil Service The petition of the undersigned citizens of the Commission Em ployee Benefits. province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): THAT the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary in April of 1988 to conduct an examination of the Information for Legislative Review for 1992-1993 relationship between the justice system and Departmental Expenditures for the Department of aboriginal people; and Environment. June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4200

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. paper on Building the Future of Mental Health Speaker, I would like to table the 1990-91 Annual Services; and contained again in his most recent Report ofthe Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation Action Plan of May 1992. and the 1991 Twenty-Seventh Annual Report of I would like to ask the Minister of Health, given the Manitoba Pork est. seriousness of the situation we are dealing with, if he is now prepared to follow the advice of Judge INTRODUCTION OF BILLS John Guy, who calls now for action rather than for BIII97-TheWinnipeg Bible College and words and for the authorities to take concrete steps Theological Seminary Incorporation to increase the more humane treatment of Amendment Act schizophrenia and hopefully to prevent future loss of life. Mr.Jack Penner(Emerson): I move, seconded by Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Speaker, as my honourable friend well knows, that Sveinson), that Bill 97, The Winnipeg Bible College tragic death has been subject to an inquiry report and Theological Seminary Incorporation which I believe was delivered yesterday. Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituanten corporation le "Winnipeg Bible College and Mr. Speaker, that is exactly why this government, Theological Seminary", be introduced and that the in 1988, embarked upon a very significant change same be now received and read a first time. in the approach to mental health servicedelivery in the province of Manitoba, reinforced by the action Motion agreed to. plan and documenttabled in January of this year, for which many plans to accomplishwhat Judge Guy Introduction of Guests has indicated are in the process offormulation and Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions,may I direct implementation. the attention of honourable members to the gallery • (1340) where we have with us this afternoon, from the Riverton School, forty-three Grades 4 and 5 But, Mr. Speaker, I want to provide some students under the direction of Mr. Doug Anderson information, lest my honourable friend's preamble and Mr. Brian Thordarson. This school is located in would leave doubt around Judge Guy's conclusion. the constituency of the honourable member for Page 5 of his statement says: "Rnally, at first Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). glance one might question the lack ofsecurity at the Selkirk Mental Health Complex. One would think On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this that a mental hospital, would be as free from areas afternoon. of danger as any institution. The manner in which Mr. Russick apparently achieved his tragic end was ORAL QUESTION PERIOD a combination of planning, foresight and a window Mental Health Care System Reform of opportunity. Once again I am not convinced that Government Strategy it was completely avoidable in light of his obvious determination and the manner in which it was Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): The report carried out." released yesterday by provincial Judge John Guy into the inquest of Robert Russick clearly indicates Mr. Speaker, I think that indicates that this is an that his death was preventable. Judge Guy in this unfortunateand tragic instance, but that the staff at report makes a number of recommendations for Selkirk Mental Health Centre did all which was regional resources, crisis prevention, better possible to avoid such a tragic end, Sir. co-ordination of services,something that is not new. Ms.Wasylycla- Lels: The issue for all ofus today, Those recommendations, or the spirit of those is to work to ensure that deaths like Robert recommendations, are contained in the minister's Russick's are avoided. Although I do not want to paper of 1988 entitled A New Partnership for Mental argue about semantics, Judge Guy clearly says that Health; they are contained in his December 1990 here are six recommendations that will hopefully aid paper on a vision for the future; they are contained in the prevention of similar tragic deaths. in his press release of October 16 setting up a So ali i want to ask the Ministerof Health today is: committee; contained in his January 19, 1992, What specific steps has he taken, after all of these 4201 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

reports, to address the kind of recommendations Mr. Speaker, we have the action plan January that are in this report,so that we can at least assure 1992, which has those sorts of very planning ourselves that we have taken every measure vehicles being developed now for implementation possible to avoid any kind of death like this within the next several years, and there will be happeningin the future? priority action in each region of the province of Manitoba based on recommendations made to a Mr.Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to indicate government as early as 1972. the steps taken. The process now, Sir, will go through and will be The steps taken to attempt to provide the support completed, because this government has taken the in the community that have been recommended as issue seriously, and we have provided the a result of this inquest were initiated by opportunityfor input, not only of professionals, but recommendations from this political party when in of families and consumers of mental health services opposition to the then government, and followed throughout the length and breadth of this province through in 1988 when we became government with to make it happen. undertaking the first very direct and very productive reform of the way we plan and deliver services to * (1345) those requiring mental health services in the Port of Churchill province of Manitoba. Grain Export Commitment We started a discussion process in 1988, reinforced that discussion process with the Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, the establishment of regional mental health councils economic situation at Churchill is approaching involving consumers, family members, critical. The bins at the portare near empty, and the professionals and citizens at large in all regions of majority of the employees who are normally the province of Manitoba who are now, as a result employed at this port are still on laid-off status. of the January 1992 document on mental health Reports from this province indicate yesterday that reform and the change that we will implement over the Port of Churchill's future has been secured for the next four to fiveyears, developing actions plans, at least another five years. region by region, to be submitted to government to I want to ask the Minister of Highways and accomplishthe change of resourcefrom institution Transportation: Will this Minister of Highways and to community-based services, just exactly to Transportation confirm that the involved federal provide the kind of supports that have been government agencies have agreed to export grain recommended in this inquest. through Churchill, or is this another ploy and will the Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: All of us must share in the hopes of northern Manitobans be once again blame and the guilt around this death. No dashed? government is free from guilt on this issue. Hon. Albert Driedger(Minis ter of Highways and The question today, and we owe it to Sandra Transportation): Mr. Speaker, no, I cannot Russick and other mothers and fathers out there confirm that. dealing with difficult situations is: Afterfour years of making specific recommendations and statements, Government Communications where are the designated hospital beds in the different regions? Where are the psychiatrically Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I want to ask the same minister, Mr. Speaker, because the reportsdo trained assessment personnel? Where is the come from within the province. 24-hour- Has this minister or this government Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable communicated with Mr. Tom Henley, Chairman of member has put her question. the Northern Manitoba Economic Development Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am very glad that my Commission, to provide or confirm information honourable friend wants to approach this and relating to the 1 million metric tonnes per year grain accept blame by all parties in the House, because export target for Churchill? Has this government those recommendations, Sir, were made to a communicated that or been in discussions with this government in 1972. That is 20 years ago. individual? June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4202

Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and reason for the pause was to force those of us who Transportation): Mr. Speaker, yes, we have. All believe in a Triple-E Senate modelto back off of our kinds of communication has taken place over the position. last three or four months. I fully appreciate, Mr. Speaker, that no final I want to indicate that possibly, to my recollection agreements have been made, as the minister has at least, the involvement of our Premier (Mr. Film on) informed us, but certainlythere are patterns that are has never been as extensive by any Premier in the emerging and that must be considered before this past as it has been by our Premier in terms of trying package is carvedin stone and becomes, as Meech to get grain movement through the Portof Churchill did, some part of a seamless web. from the point that he raised it with the Western Mr. Speaker, there appears to be two different Premiers' Conference. thoughts with regard to Senate reform. One is that He has also been personally in touch with the this new upper Chamber should be a watchdog at Wheat Board. He has been in touch with the the service of provincial governments. The other is Minister responsible for the Wheat Board, and he that the Senate must act as a second Chamber to has communicated directly with the Russian people ensure the presence and activity of a strong central in terms of hoping that they would demand and government in Canada, which certainly would be in request that grain be moved via Churchill to Russia. keeping with the position that we took here in the Mr. Speaker, all kinds of activities have taken province of Manitoba. place. Unfortunately, to date, I and this government My question is: Since the minister is committed do not have any commitment about grain movement to the maintenance of a strong central government, through Churchill for this year, and I think it is very what arguments is this government puttingforward crucial. so that the Senate does not emerge as simply a provincial watchdog, but is in fact a Senate with real Agreement Tabling Request powers to ensure the preservation of a strong Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Since there is no central government? commitment of grain exports through the Port of * (1350) Churchill, and since this Minister of Highways and Transportation hasreported an agreement between Hon. James McCrae (Minister responsible for Russia and the Canadian Wheat Board to export Constitutional Affairs): I believe what I heard grain through Churchill, will this minister provide from the honourable Leader of the Liberal Party is copies or table any correspondence that he or his all on my agenda and part of the arguments that government has to indicate that there was an Manitoba is making at these discussions. agreement between Russia and the Canadian We are very interested in seeing an appropriate Wheat Board? balance between the power represented in the Hon. AlbertDriedger (Minister of Highways and House of Commons, that power held in the hands as Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I will go through my of the electors of Canada individuals, most of file here, and I will try and make available all the whom happen to live in the centre of the country. correspondence that basically is pertinent to the We also think that a Senate ought to be there to issue and that the member will be interested in. balance those interests and those powers with provincial representation, so that the concerns of provinces and regions can be part of that balance, Constitutional Proposal so that central Canada cannot just run roughshod Senate Reform over the wishes of those other parts of Canada. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second That is basically the kind of arguments we are Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the puttingforward . Minister of Justice. The honourable member also referred to actions We have been told that the reason for the present taken this week and words spoken this week that pause in the ministerial negotiations on the are perhaps designed to break up the so-called Constitution is to allow some time for reflection and coalition, a group of people who believe in equality consultation, although, if one is to listen to Mr. in the Senate. I can tell the honourable member that Clark's statements of yesterday, one would thinkthe we will not allow that to happen. 4203 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

Delegation of Powers government, because without the presence of that strong central government and the funds from that Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs {Leader of the Second strong central government, then there is not equality Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we know that the of opportunity andprogr amming in this nation. ministers have been discussing the withdrawal of federal participation in a variety of fields, fields such Can the government tell the House today if they as housing, tourism, forestry, mining, recreation, have given any further consideration to the urban and municipal affairs, job training, culture and referendum option which, in our opinion, would give on and on. Manitobans the opportunity to say-as they are not going to be given the oppor tunity to say Can the ministertell this House if thegove rnment nationally-that this province fully supports a strong of the province of Manitoba is supporting or resisting central government? such transfers, and what guarantees are they being given, if those transfers are to take place, that Hon. James McCrae {Minister responsible for money will come with those transfers in order to Constitutional Affairs): I can only repeat some of ensure that we are not constitutionalizing offloading the things that I said in my previous answer about by the federal government? maintaining a balance that will ensure that Hon. James McCrae {Minister responsible for Canadians living in every part of thiscountry can feel Constitutional Affairs): Manitoba approaches that they are equal Canadians to Canadians in every these talks with the concerns of so-called smaller other part of the country. provinces very much on our agenda. We have The honourable member and I, I do not believe, made it clear that Manitoba does not come to these have any disagreement on these points respecting talks jurisdiction shopping. We are not there to see strong central government, the so-called six for purposes of power only, powers devolved to the siblings, the powers referred to by the honourable province of Manitoba. We are there to see that any member, and jobs and culture. All of those things, changes in the power structure are offset with changes that happen, have to be accompanied by appropriate safeguards so that provinces like safeguards and have to be accompanied by a Manitoba and others are not negatively impacted. strengthening of the equalization provisions of the All of these discussions hinge on a discussion about Constitution, so that Manitoba can go forwardinto levelling the playing field . The principle of the future with potentials and opportunities, so that equalizationand cost-shared programs is very, very we can take a greater part in our national much partof these discussions. arrangements, constitutionalarrangements. Every time we deal with issues related to changes I answered the questions and the honourable in powers, we go back and look at whether we are Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) answered questions getting the kinds of movement we need on the about referendums earlier this week. equalization front to ensure that the safeguards are there, and that any devolution of powers does not • (1355) weaken the strength of the central government to Municipal Assessments deliver programs that are important to people in Delays every part ofthis country. Ms. Rosann Wowchuk {Swan River: Mr. Provincial Referendum Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Rural Development. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs {Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is very clear that in all Since the introductionof Bill 20, we on this side of the media accounts, we keep hearing about the the House have raised many concerns, particularly offloadingof programs, but we never hear anything with the delay in reassessment and the right for about any monies which would flow from the federal farmers to appeal. We have also raised the government to the provinces to operate those problem of business values decreasing because of programs to maintain a sense of equality of closures. The minister has finally realized thatthere programming across the nation. It is equally clear is a problem and has indicated that his government that that is exactly what Manitobans want. They is going to look at the current assessment rules and have always felt the need for that strong central make changes to ease the businesses that had June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4204

closures, something that has been suggested by appeal based on market value. That is simply not people on this side of the House. allowable because it would simply mean the I want to ask the minister: What changes is he reassessment based on reference years would proposing to make to ease the burden on have no value whatsoever. That is something that businesses that have been forced to close? the opposition should become familiar with and get an understanding of. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Well, Mr. Speaker, in her question, Delays the member for Swan River again erroneously Ms. points to the fact that farmers will lose their right to Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): In light of appeal. That is false. We have indicated on the fact that the decision today to delay several occasions, when questioned by the member reassessment to 1994 is causing severe hardship for Dauphin, the member for Swan River that indeed in some cases, will the minister reconsider this issue farmers will continue to have the right to appeal as and proceed with the reassessment in 1993 as was they did in the past. promised by this governmentin Bill 79? Mr. Speaker, there has been a situation, a very Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural unique situation developed in terms of assessment Development): Mr. Speaker, as we have said and that has to do with businesses that have closed before, the delay of reassessment by one year does and the assessment on those businesses. We not affect the right of farmers to appeal their taxes have come a long way through reforming as was previously the norm. If there is something assessment in this province, and indeed we are not that affects the value of a certain property, an where we would like to be in the future, but there are extenuating situation, that farmer may appeal his steps that have to be taken. Because ofthis unique assessment as he was able to under the former circumstance, I have indicated very publicly that I legislation. Bill 20 does not in any way affect that am prepared to examine it and look at whether or right whatsoever. not we can address it through our assessment process. Domtar Site Soli TesUng Costs Right to Appeal Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): The this government claims to subscribe to the minister says that farmers have not lost their right to polluter-pay principle, and they have an opportunity appeal, yet he is quoted as saying that it would to apply and live by that principle with the cleanup cause chaos ifthe right to appeal was extended to of the former Domtarsite in Transcona. business and farmers. I am not sure where he is My question is for the Minister of Environment. coming-which way is it? I want to ask the minister: Has there, or will there be an application to the Is he prepared to extend the same consideration to taxpayer-supported Green Plan orphan site farmers that he is prepared to extend to program to pay for the testing ofthe soil from the old businesses? Is he now looking at allowing farmers Domtar site? the right to appeal when he says in the paper that it would cause chaos? He says here- Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment) : Mr. Speaker, certainly not for the testing of the soil. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable The member is wondering whether any Manitoba member has put her question. taxpayers' dollars would flow to support Domtar in Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural any way. The answer is no. Development): Mr. Speaker, let it be made very Ms. Cerllll: Will Domtar then be paying for the clear that under the present legislation, farmers do entire research and testing andthe remediation for have the right to appeal their assessment if there are the site at the end of Devonshire Drive? extenuating circumstances which affectthe value of their property. Farmers cannot appeal their * (1400) assessment based on the market values that Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, there has been a broadly affect the property in the whole province. proposal put forward from departmental officials to That is what I was speaking about when I was asked access research development dollars to examine by the reporter whether or not we would allowfor the the possibility of expanding the technology thatmay 4205 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

be used in the Domtar site. There are a number of access to. Frankly, one of the things that they are reasons why that is useful. Technologymay well be concerned about is the ability of any technology to possible to be used to remove PCBs and similarly work successfully in close proximity to dwellings. contaminated soil. We do not presently have that That will be one of the first tests that this will be put capability. The alternative that we have, in many to and will lead to further decisions. If this cases, is simply storage. technology doesnot work, Domtar wishes to be able Thistechnology is being tested in shale. It has to bring other technologies in to deal with it. been tested in some sandy soils. It has never been knownto work in heavy clay such as we are wishing Human Rights Case to gain that knowledge on. If the member is critical Government Involvement of Manitoba-obtaining at no cost to Manitoba additional technology, an opportunity that will flow Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, from that benefit-then I would suggest that they are my question is for the Deputy Premier. sincerely out of touch. We are privileged to live in a free and democratic Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, I think it was the society where the rights for human beings and due Conservatives that coined the phrase "there is only process are accepted as given. On April 3 of this one taxpayer." year, the chairperson of the Punjab Human Rights Mr. Speaker: And your question is. Commission, Justice Bains, was arrested by the Indian government for an alleged speech. He has, Ms. Cerllll: There is also concern, Mr. Speaker, since then, been held without being charged. about the effectiveness of this method of decontaminating soil. Does the minister have Human rights organizations around the world information about the anticipated success of this have taken up his cause and have called for his procedure? If it is not successfulwith the test being release. Mr. Justice Bains is a man who has earned done in Calgary, then how much longer do these the respect of cross sections of global society people have to live next to this contaminated site? around this world. How long will the delay of the cleanup be? Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, when I stand here Premier. Will he contact the federal government and think of the hypocrisy coming from that side and and ask them to step up their pressure on the Indian there is potentially $14 million worth of Manitoba government to release Justice Bains who is being taxpayers' dollars that could be expended to clean held without due process of the law? up the Manfor site, and they are opposed to Hon. James Downey {Deputy Premier): Mr. developing technology here so that we can clean up Speaker, I will take that question under the contaminations that are presently existing or consideration. potentially in this province, they have the blinkers on. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, I will be willing to provide the information on Mr. Justice Bains. Mr. Speaker, specifically, regarding the site where these tests are to take place, the technology I have always tried to keep myself away from any will be tested- issue which is not within the boundary of this country, but I am forced to speak on this issue, Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. because it is an issue which crosses all the Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable boundarylines, the human rights issue. ministerto finish his response. I will ask the Deputy Premier: Given the medical Mr. Cummings: Domtar will be taking a number of condition of Justice Bains who has been very well truckloads from the Winnipeg site to the equipment respected among you and the members here, can where it is presently located. If there appears to be he also convey to the Prime Minister of this country some success, then the equipment will be located to convey to the Indian prime minister to make sure here to deal with the contamination and the that proper treatment is being given to this individual contaminated soil. who has worked for the last 51 years on behalf of There are a number of issues that are referenced many organizations which cross all factions of the in the paper which I imagine the members now have community? June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4206

It is not a racial issue, Mr. Speaker. It is a justice Mr. Chomlak: Therefore, will the minister confirm issue, and we mustspeak when thereare violations that lab tests, computer checks and other aspects of justice in any part of the world. relating to homicide and other investigations carried Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, I look forward to the out by national and federal testing labs will not be forwarding of the information that was committedto partof a fee-for-servicebasis for policeservices and by the member and, as well, I will take under police departments across the province? consideration his request. Mr. McCrae: The best way forme to dealwith the specifics of the honourable member's question is Policing Services to-nowI cannot remember. Did we get throughthat Fee-F or-Service Costs part in the Estimates? Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my So we are already finished that in the Estimates questionis for the Minister of Justice. review-but for me to consultwith the director ofLaw During the Estimates process,we discussed the Enforcement Services and deal with the question policing contract entered into between the province directly asked by the honourable member and get and the federal government,and it is clear that many him a response to the question of lab tests and aspects of that contract are up in the air. We have computer checks. heard reports in our office and have been contacted * (1410) and advised that many police servicesthat are now offered for free will be charged on a fee-for-service Mr. Chomlak: My final supplementary. Will the basis to police forces in the province of Manitoba. minister contact police departments and agencies across the province, because they are concerned Given the effect this could have on delivery of thatthese fee-for-services costswill be included and can police services, themini ster confirm in factif that they will be forced to pay for them? Will he is the case? undertake to contact these agenciesto advisethem Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and that if in fact it is not the case,it is not the case? Attorney General): Overa long period oftime the Mr. McCrae: Well, if what thehonourable member contracting provinces negotiated with the federal is asking is not the case, I do not see any reason to government the successful conclusion of a new advise anybody. On the other hand, if the 20-year contract guaranteeing RCMP services in honourable member is being asked about thisand those contracting provinces. he is putting this forward as a question thatrequires That contract maintains the ratios that were in clarification, I too would like to know the answerto effect previous to the expiration of the previous that question as a result of the negotiations, these contract, a matter of major importance to all lab tests and computer checks, whether that was contracting jurisdictions, including municipalities. I partof ournegotiated settlement and how that works understand the city of Thompson is also a major under the new arrangement. So I will be sure to benefactorof the latest censusand also the fact that respond to the honourablememb er at a subsequent we negotiated this agreement in this way. time on the specificsof his question. This agreement also allows an unprecedented level of program and financial accountability to the TheDiviners contracting jurisdictions, another major step GovernmentSupport forward, so that we can monitor these contracts much more closelythan we were able to previously. Mrs. Shirley Render (St. VItal): My question is The third partof this contract which was of major directed to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and importance was a clarification of the items that form Citizenship. part of the cost base. It must be in the area of the Yesterday, here in the Legislature, there was a cost-base arrangements that the honourable fair bit of action going on. The bells were ringing member is referring to, and if he could be more here in the House, and in the Legislative Reading specific about the concerns that he thinks that there Room, the cameras were rolling. A film called "The are out there with respect to items being up in the Diviners" was being shot. I wonder if the minister air, I would be very happy to know about that and could tell us whether the government supportedthat very happy to deal directly with those. particularpro ject. 4207 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the fact is that after Heritage and CHizenshlp): I am pleased to say three and a half years this government has done a that we have very vibrant cultural industries in the rap on the WRAP Act. The fact is there is nothing province of Manitoba that do contribute to the quality that has happened in Brandon. There is nothing of life and to the well-being economically and that has happened- culturally of our province. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to say that there was member for St. James, kindlyput your question now, $400,000 provided through CIDO, through our please. cultural industries, for the film "The Diviners" and that in fact we were able to increase, through this Mr. Edwards: My question for the minister. He year's budget process, our commitment to cultural talks about discussions. Those discussions have industries by $400,000. been going for years. When is this minister going to turn discussions into action and do what the City of RecyclingPrograms Brandon is asking him to do, and that is to sit down and discuss with distributors their responsibility to Distributor's Costs deal with recycling costs and responsibility in this Mr. Paul Edwards (St.James): Mr. Speaker, my province? question is for the Minister of Environment. I Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I am more than received today a copy of a letterdated June 1 from pleased to say that I agree with the member that the the City of Brandon City Council, which says in part time is opportune to proceed in this direction. As a that the solid management waste subcommittee of matter of fact, I am meeting with my staff this Brandon City Council feels that the distributors of afternoon in the ongoing process of preparing for newspapers and advertising flyers should be implementation of WRAP regulations regarding contributing more financiallyand in other ways, such wastepaper in this province. as promotion, to the recycling effortsnow underway. They say that this would be consistent with the WRAP Act and they go on to say, we urge the Abitibi-Price - Pine Falls provincial government to accelerate the pace of the De-Inking Plant WRAP process to increase the contribution of distributors. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, finally, for the same minister. My question is for the Minister of Environment. Mr. Speaker, we have been saying this for some Can the minister indicate why, in his recent time. It is now being said by the City of Brandon. granting of the licence to Abitibi-Price, he included Why will the Minister of Environment not make good no statement about the contribution of this on his commitment to make distributors share in the government towards a recycling de-inking plant out cost and responsibility of recycling? at Abitibi-Price, also an issue raised by the City of Brandon in their letterto him ofthis week? Why did Hon. Glen Cummings (Ministerof Environment): the minister not deal with the recycling at the same Mr. Speaker, that is precisely what is occurring time that he granted the new licences in- under the WRAP Act. Discussions have taken place with four targeted waste streams, one of them Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable is the newspaper stream, and one of the things that member has put his question. is coming along very well is that we are now starting Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment) : to have in rural Manitoba, a very well-developed Mr. Speaker, it is an interesting point, but I do not recycling network. We set aside $100,000 to assist think the member would suggest that the director of rural Manitoba and another $1 00,000 to assist the the department should be directing the financial City of Winnipeg in setting up newsprint recycling approach that Abitibi takes for redevelopment of the capability. Following that, the capacity is now plant. developing to collect and the capacity for markets is growing rapidly. We now have recyclers beginning I can say very clearly that Abitibi, in putting to look to the market for newsprint, and I will be forward its business plan, is contemplating and meeting with the publishers shortly to discuss the intends to pursue recycling capability, and we will WRAP Act. continue to work with them to develop that. June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4208

Mr. Speaker, it is on the basis of recycling that Also, I am calling the Standing Committee on Abitibi has been doing up to this point that we have Privileges and Elections for Tuesday, June 16, at 10 a local market of much magnitude in this province. a.m., to consider-Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw that That is one of the issues that we have been dealing announcement and ask for the leave of the House, with, is the freight, dealing with the volumes of if I might, Mr. Speaker, to move a motion. Itis to do newsprint, and that is now very much in sight in with the Judicial Compensation Committee. I would terms of how Abitibi will redevelop. like leave of the House to introducethis motion. It is a referral motion referring the Report of the ManitobaBlue Cross Judicial Compensation Committee, tabled in the Tax Increase House July 4, be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections for Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, consideration and reportback to the House. That is when the honourable Minister of Finance admitted the motion, but I have to have leave to move it. in this House that he is slapping a 2 percent tax on Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government Blue Cross, I was tempted to sing a new song, · House leader have leave? "Manitoba, Deep in the Heart of Taxes�. Some Honourable Members: Leave. My question to the honourable Minister of Finance Mr.Speaker: He does. is: On what profit of Blue Cross is he imposing this 2 percenttax, which would yield almost $750,000 to Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move $1.5 million annual additional revenue? On what that motion, secondedby the Minister ofJustice (Mr. profit of Blue Cross is he imposingthis? McCrae). Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Motion agreed to. The member is really striking into some old melodies Mr. Manness: Again, before I move the motion, I in his preambles to his questions. would ask leave of the House to make one change I will certainlybe prepared to give full responseto in the Estimates list. I apologize to the House that question in consideration of the bill on statute leaders for not having given them prior notice to this. law and taxation. I am wondering whether or not, seeing that the Minister of Labour's (Mr. Praznik) Estimates are to But, Mr. Speaker, when the member talks about be considered shortly, one small item on the list, being in the "heart of taxes�, I would just have to namely Employee Benefits and Other Payments, remind him, [inte�ection] and obviously with the could be brought in right under the Civil Service agreement of all of his colleagues, I would just Commission so that they could be dealt with at the remind him that in the years 1982-1987, there was same time. an imposition of $800 million of taxes imposed by Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government the NDP government of Manitoba and an annual House leader have leave to alter the sequence in increase of $250 million. the manner that he has so indicated? Since we have been in government, Mr. Speaker, * (1420) our rates of taxation have amounted to a $150-million reduction on an annual basis, not an Some Honourable Members: Leave. $BOO-million increase in the "heart oftaxes� during Mr.Speake r: Yes, he has leave. Leave has been the period 1982-87. agreed to. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Mr. Manness: Then with that change, I would move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. House Business McCrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave- Well, Mr. Speaker, I will ask, again, whether there Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House is a willingness to waive private members' hour. Leader): Mr. Speaker, before I move the motion to go into Supply, I would like to announce that the Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable government Standing Committeeon Privileges and Elections will House leader have leave to waive private members' meet on Thursday, June 11, at 10 a.m., to consider hour? Leave? the operations of The Freedom of Information Act. Some Honourable Members: No. 4209 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

Mr. Speaker: No. Leave is denied. and regulations within the Department of Labour * (1430) that relate to the protection ofthe health, safety and economic well-being of Manitobans. This division ORDERS OF TH E DAY also serves a very broad range of our public. The division is composed of six branches-Field Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Inspection and Education Services, Mines Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Inspection, Occupational Health, Employment Minister of Justice(Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker Standards, Labour Adjustment and theoffice of the now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself Worker Advisor. into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. The third division of the Department of Labour is Management Services. This division provides the Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself financial and human resource management support into a committee to consider of the Supply to be to the entire department, as well as information granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member system support. The division is also responsible for for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair forthe research legislation and policy co-ordinationfor the Department of Justice;and the honourable member department and provides essential support to the for St. Norbert(Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the many advisory comm ittees on whom the Department of Labour. department relies and consults. It is the goal ofall members of the threedivisions of the Departmentof COMM ITTEE OF SUPPLY Labourto provide the highest quality of servicethat (ConcurrentSections) we can to the Manitobans that we serve. LAB OUR Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to takethis opportunityto offer my own thanks and appreciation Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): to the members of the Labour department for their Order, please. Will theComm itteeof Supply please hard work over the past year. The mandate of the come to order. This afternoon, this section of the Labour department is an important one, and while Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be thetimes we are experiencing are extremely difficult considering the Estimates of the Department of for all jurisdictions, I am pleasedto indicatethat the Labour. spending Estimates for the Department of Labour, Does the honourable Minister of Labour have an on an adjusted vote, represent an increase of 5.6 opening statement? percent over the 1991-92 budget, I would suspect Hon. Darren Praznlk(Minister of Labour): Yes, I one of the highest increases for any Departmentof do, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Labour in Canada. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am pleased to present Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in introducing the the 1992-1993 Estimates for the Department of spending Estimates of the Department of Labour, I Labour. The Departmentof Labour is composedof will just touch briefly on a few of the major issues. It three divisions. The first division is the Labour is criticalto the economicwell-being of the province Services Division, whose mandate is to provide that we operate in a way which reflects respect for services to a broad range of individuals and all of our citizens. The Labour department is not organizations focusing on public safety through the large, but is nevertheless charged with a number of Officeof the Rre Commissioner and the Mechanical important matters. We are responsible for the and Engineering branch, assuranceof the technical administration of our 20 statutes and numerous competence of tradespersons through the regulations aimed at ensuring fair play in critical Apprenticeship & Training branch and through areas of workplace safety, labour relations, public Mechanical & Engineering, and thirdly, promotion of safety, to name a few. fair employment practices through the Pension It is also critical that in order to ensure fair play, Commission, Conciliation and Mediation Services that our legal framework reflect the balanced and through the Pay Equity Bureau. interests of a wide variety of parties. It is not The second division of the department is the possible, I realize, to satisfy every concernor every Workplace Safety, Health and Support Services interest which comes before me as Minister of Division, whosemandate is to administer those acts Labour. This would not be possible, I am sure June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 421 0

members would agree. I am satisfied, however, opportunity to participate in these discussions in that through the consultations in which we engage, Estimates, I think we have seen, probably more both formaland informal, the mandate of the Labour clearly in this department than any other, the kinds department is well served and that the balance of policies and programs of thisgove rnment. which is so essential to the interestsof fair play and I want to indicate that I continue to have great competitivenessas a province is maintained. difficulty with the direction that this government is The Departmentof Labour is into itssecond year taking in a whole series of Labour issues, whether of a long-term initiative to improve the quality of it be in terms of labour relations, whether it be in servicedeliverance to our clients. In this fiscalyear, terms of the whole question of apprenticeship managers have been delegated various training, whether it bein terms of the questionof pay administrative responsibilities and will be more equity, whether it be in terms of the questionof the accountable for the results and service given by Worker Advisor Office and Workers Compensation their branches. All staff have participated in which we will be dealing with separately but which workshops designed to familiarize them with service is certainly related, all that is dealt with by this quality concepts and theprogress we are making as particulardepartment, amongst others. a department. Staff-driven quality improvement teams will soon be reality, and more trainingof our Mr. Deputy Chairperson, while I creditthe many employees will occur overthe next few years. Our finestaff people in thedepartment and the different department is very excited about the leadership it sections,and the workthey do onan ongoingbas is, has demonstrated in the initiative, and we hope it I must again indicate at the beginning of these will not be long before our clients actually comments my concern about the directions which experienceimprovemen t in the way our multitude of this government has been taking in the last five servicesare delivered. years now. This is the fifth year this government Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am prepared to defer has been in office. some of my remarks regarding the other I do so by looking at the statement of purpose of accomplishments of thedepartment over thepast this department, because I really believe that this year to the detailed review process. Those are government is embarking on a course, and has many andvaried, and while I lookforward to sharing been the last five years, thatis not in keeping with the information with members of the committee, I its own statement of purpose, the statement of believe that this can be donemore efficientlyas we purpose for the Departmentof labour,of which one proceed. statement of purpose is the promotion of safety, On thatnote , I look forwardto thequestions which health and fair and equitable treatment in the members opposite may wish to put to me. Thank workplace. you. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this government has Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the brought in changes to labour legislationevery single honourableMin ister of Labour for thosecommen ts. year thatit has been in office, brought in changes to Does the criticfrom the official opposition party, the labour legislationfive sessions in a row, andnot only honourable member for Thompson have an opening has in each session brought in one bill, but has statement? brought in some cases more than one bill that has Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Deputy impacted negatively, in our view, on the equitable Chairperson, I welcomethe opportunity once again, treatment of workers in the workplace. as Labour critic for the New Democratic Party, to We had the bill to delete finaloffer selection. We open this discussion of the Estimates for the current had the bill to freeze wages in thepublic sector last fiscal year. I want to indicate that our view is that year. We had Bill 59, the Workers Compensation while this is a relatively small department in terms bill, and we currently have a number of acts, of budget in comparison to other departments of including bills related to pensions that we feel are government, it is a critical department. not moving in the direction that is in the best It is indicative in many ways of the policies and interests of working people, and perhaps most programs ofgov ernments,and I think in the context significant in this session, changes to The Labour of the last number of years that I have had the Relations Act. 421 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

We do not believe this government understands management groups right now in a whole series of what equitable is in theworkplace . We believe that projects. This government has notseen fitbecause implementing the Chamber of Commerce agenda, of ideological reasons to support the work of the which the governmenthas done every session it has Labour Education Centre. The government not been in government, which it is doing now in Bill 85 only has gone that far, it has eliminated a which is taken right out of the Chamber of scholarship to the Labour College that is offered Commerce brief to government, implementing the every year, a scholarship that has existed since Chamber of Commerce agenda for this province is 1963. not serving the interests of providing equitable I say to you that I believe here, once again, the treatment in the workplace. government does not see or does not admit perhaps Similarly, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would notein to the true agenda here. Why is it afraid of providing terms of the fostering of a stable labour relations support and funding to organizations such as the climate, another statement of purpose of this Labour Education Centre? Why is it afraid of government, this government has done anything but providing this scholarship? Is it afraid of workers promote stable labour relations. We saw that last who are aware of their rights, workers who are able year in terms of the public sector wage freeze. We to educate themselves about current issues, have seen, in terms of this government, that it is whether it be in terms of workplace safety and health following the pattern of previous Conservative or labour relations? I say that because these cuts governments. have been particularlynegative . Almost without fail, there have been increased I point again to the concernsthat were expressed incidences of days lost to strikes when we have had about the Unemployed Help Centre. The minister Conservative governments largely because, I of this gove rnment had the opportunityto reinstate continue to believe, many people in this government funding for the Unemployed Help Centre which do not understand labour relations and do not provides assistance to the unemployed. We have understand theconsequences of their actions when seen proof the last period of time that the average they bring in thekinds of changes tolabour relations person on unemployment insurancein this province and do not understand the consequences of their is not receiving the full benefits to which they are actions when they bring in the kind of changes to due. Even though those benefits,by the way, have labour relations legislation thatwe have seen. been significantly cut, even though it has become more difficult to obtain unemployment insurance, .. (1440) these people are still receiving less than they are I say that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson-andI know we entitled to. The minister said, and previous will be continuing this debate in terms of Bill ministers have said,that this is a matter of federal 85-because I am concernedat a time when wear e jurisdiction. in a deep recession that we are seeing a worsenin g Mr. Dep uty Chairperson, unemployed of the labour relationsclima te. Similarly, one of the Manitobans are Manitobans. Unemployed other stated purposes of the Departmentof Labour, Manitobans who are not receiving the benefits to which I certainlysubscribe to andour caucus does, which they are entitled to are citizens of this is support workplace training. province. This government should be supporting Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is the government them in receiving the kind of assistance to which that has cut back overall in terms of community they are entitled. It could have done that. The college training. It has cut back in terms of government was doing that through support to the apprenticeship and training, particularly in northern Unemployed Help Centre, but they have chosen Manitoba. While there has been some instead to turn a blind eye to the plight of the reinstatementof thoseprograms in this current fiscal unemployed. year, it still has not brought it up to par with the The result has been more people on welfare. We previous level of training that was provided. have seen proofof that justtoday. I knowin my own We have seen this government turn a cold constituency of Thompson the welfare rolls have shoulder to the Labour Education Centre whic h increased from 5,200 applications to an estimated provides badly needed education and training, 6,800 this year, in one year alone. The most which is pioneering, by the way, in conjunction with significant cause has been in terms of people who June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4212

have run out of UIC. It is people who have gone what I am asking from this government, ifanything, from UIC to welfare. It is the same situation in the is a cease fire. We know this war on the labour city ofWinnipeg. It is thesame situationacross this movement will continue in the future. I have no province. We have more andmore people who are doubt aboutthat. We indeed will be continuing the falling through the cracks. fight for more fairness for working people. More and more people who never would have I said thaton finaloffer selection, and we willsay ever contemplated ending up on welfare , who now that again in debate on Bill 85, that whatever this because of the changes in the unemployment government thinks it can do in the short term, it insurance system-and no thanks to this should be reminded of the words, in fact, of Sterling government which has cut funding to the Lyon who just recently spoketo many Manitobans Unemployed Help Centre which was able to help at a tribute to the six Premiers, who said there were individuals significantlyand still works without the only temporarygove rnments. support of this government to help unemployed Any government is only a temporary government. Manitobans-we are seeing more and more people This government is indeed a temporary fall into that trap, the welfare trap. government. In the future, many of thenegative I say, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this department, policies theyhave introduced can and will be turned thefunding that is allocated in this department,and around. In themeantime, now, afterthe fifth year in in particular thekind of cutswe have seen in the past a row that they have brought in this antilabour four, fiV e years are indicative of a government-and agenda,would it not be better tocall a cease fire,to I have said this before and I remember my first work together, to have co-operation between Estimates expressing my concern about the business, labour and governmenton the economy? direction the government would go in terms of I put that forward as the alternative idea, the dealing with matters related to labour issues, in alternative vision. I put it forward in debate on the terms of working people. I really believe this Labour Estimates, because this department and its government has shown shortsighted agenda in many fine staff people in this department, if given this departmentmore than anyot her. the mandate, could do a great deal to implement Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in the brief time that we that. They have the ability. They have the will have available to discuss Estimates, I will be dedicated, the trained staff. All it takes is policy asking questionsabout these and other issues, but direction fromthe government. I believe now is the more importantly, I will be putting forward another time for a co-operative approach in terms of labour way in which this governmentcan go, becausethere relations. Now is the time to put aside these petty is anotheralternative . There is an alternativeto the political attacks the government has made on the kind of petty cuts we have seen because I really labour movement and working people. believe they have been motivated by pettypolitics. It is time to worktogeth er to get out ofthis terrible There is analternative to theblind implementation recession we are in and deal with the horrendous of of the Chamber of Commerce agenda in this situation in terms unemployment in this province. province. There is an alternative to this continual Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. effort on behalf of the government to end up in Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the confrontation with the labour movement and the honourable member for Thompson for those working people it represents. comments. Does the critic from the second There is another alternative, Mr. Deputy oppositionparty, the honourable member for Inkster Chairperson, and particularly now, I believe that have any opening comments? alternative should be put on the record. We are in Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wanted to add the worst economic circumstances in 30 years, 40 a few words as we go into the Labour Estimates. years, 50 years. We are in the longest recession in This is my first experience in going through the living memory. Only those who went through the Labour Estimates, as I was appointedjust last year depression, really, can think of similar as the critic for Labour. circumstances. I must say right from the onset that to some We need co-operation in this province right now degree I am disappointed. I am disappointed in the to deal with the economic circumstances. I guess senseof the budget priorities,as I pointed out, when 4213 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

we came back in the spring. I am somewhat final offer selection were brought in because of the disappointed with the minister not recognizing the NDP administration. importance of the Civil Service. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that they are both For both those particular lines, I would like to wrong, that the worker is the one whom we should comment on, one, in terms of the question where we be thinking of, not catering to a small but powerful saw a virtual freeze put on the Labour Adjustment group of individuals on each side, if you like. line,and we only go to the reporton Adjusting to Win In terms of the Civil Service, I will not be giving with respect to free trade. open remarks for the Civil Service, but I want to * (1450) comment on the Civil Service and also Workers

There is a demand for programs of this nature. Compensation because they are two The government's priorities in that particular area responsibilitiesof the minister that we will be dealing are just not where we believe they should be, while with. at the same time, we see the increases in the We see that the Civil Service has a much larger support staff of the governments. We look at the role to play. There is a lotof public cynicism toward Civil Service. On a few occasions, I have brought politicians in general, in part because of the amount up to the minister's attention some hirings that we of patronage that takes place. Mr. Deputy have called into question, and unfortunately the Chairperson, we believe that the Civil Service has a minister felt that it was not an appropriate thing to major role and in fact should be broadened to once do. again, or at least attempt to try to restore some public faith in politicians. Now, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we wanted to talk in terms of the Labour Management Review In respect to their wages and the freeze on wages Committee. For far too long,we have had decisions that we saw last year, we look at the ministerial being made based solely on the party that is in support staff of all the different ministers, and you government. There seems to be some obligation, will see that there are substantial increases, while whether it is a Conservative government now or an at the same time, the Civil Service, I was told, was NDP governmentin thepast, that there needs to be for zero percent, and in fact brought in legislation. amendments brought forward to The Labour Workers Compensation-there are a number of Relations Act and others, whether it is in the best issues that we are wanting to address, some interest of the worker or not. specific policy questions, and we are hoping to be In fact, we have created a Labour Management able to get into Workers Compensation this time Review Committee, and that particularcomm ittee is through. I know in the past we have not had very responsible to bring forward recommendations to much debate or questions regarding Workers the minister. Far too often, we see division on Compensation. recommendations coming to the minister from that So with those few words, Mr. Deputy committee. Chairperson, I would like to proceed. if I am inclined to believe that a committee is Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the struck which has labour and management on the honourable member for those comments. committee, if they cannot come up with a Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's consensus, then it is not something that the government should be taking asa recommendation Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the from the Review Committee. Estimates of a department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed I think that we need to depoliticize The Labour with consideration of the next line. Relations Act a lot more than it currently is because, At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us as I say, we see, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that the at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce minister, both present and in the past, far too often the staff present. brings in changes to The Labour Relations Act because, in this particular case, as the member for Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was just Thompson (Mr. Ashton) points out, of the Chamber going to suggest that in terms of proceeding, we of Commerce. Equally, the Conservatives will say proceed the way we have, certainly last year, and that changes to The Labour Relations Act such as not deal strictly line by line, and deal with the June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4214

department perhaps generally at the first point. It I know the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) will make it a lot easier, I think, in terms of dealing will be asking other questions on that, and I have a with them, particularly given the length of time that number of other questions following down the lines. we have available. Dependingon thetime, l have someother questions further up, but we are shortof time here. Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I understandthatthere is a limited amount of time that In terms of Apprenticeship and Training, I wanted is our critics have allotted for this Estimates, and I to ask the minister if it possible in the future to get gather that there is some desire to deal with them in detailed responses because I realize some a rather short time frame. information may not be available. I would like to ask the minister if it would be Mr.Asht on: Yes, just in terms of that, I know it is possible to obtain an indication of the number of difficultto estimate the length of time that we spend apprentices enrolled since 1985, if that historic on any department, especially once we get into information could be available? Once again, we will some of the questions and answers back and forth, be sitting in other departments which the minister but I do believe we should be finished Labourtoday, and possibly may start Civil Service. reports back on, and if I could ask for the current year information if that is available. Mr. Praznlk: I have no problem with that means of * (1500) proceeding. Ali i would ask is if the critics could,just for the benefit of my staffin terms of moving people Mr. Praznlk: I will undertake to provide the here for particularareas, follow generally the layout member and the twocritics with a historical listing of in the guide for pursuing our questions and work the number of apprentices by trade going back to through them. That would probably save us some 1985. Just give me a moment-we will have the time and accommodate staff. current number in training. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would reference HImay, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, introduce my members to the annual report which should have a staff, I have the Deputy Minister, Roberta detailed outline of apprentices being dealt with. Ellis-Grunfeld, who is here with me, Jim Nykoluk, Yes, if I could provide a copy of the annual report, who is the Executive Director of Management and I would reference page 66. I think that will give Services, and Mr. Jim Wood, who is Director of the honourable member a rundown of Financial Services, and as we move through apprenticeships, registrations, completions, active departments, we will move other staffin, and I will at year end, breakdowns in terms of women, level introducethem . testing, all of that information going back to the Mr. DeputyChairperson: I would like to inform the '88-89 year. members of the committee that the correct Mr. Ashton: I would appreciate the information procedurefor consideringitems in the Committee of back to 1985 as well. Supply is line by line. In order to skip ahead or revert back to lines already passed, unanimous One of the key questions I have, one of the consent by the committee is required. Is there reasons for asking the question, is related to the unanimous consentof the committee at this time to Conawapa Hydro project. One of the most deal with the issues on a whole? [Agreed) significant developments in the mid-'BOs was in terms of apprenticeship training,particularly through Mr. Praznlk: Yes, I Introduced the three, and as we the Limestone training authority. Many apprentices move through departments and other staff come, I were enrolled. Many apprentices are currently at want to have everyone here so we can the second, third level in the system. accommodate your questions today and move Conawapa will likely be under construction as through with some speed, appreciating the time early as next year, depending on theenvironmental frames we are all working under. review and other policy and political decisions by Mr. Ashton: I have a number of questions on government and Hydro, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Apprenticeshipand Training to begin with, and I can But '93 seems to be a very likely start-up date indicate we will have some questions on the Pay according to the latest information-! have the Equity Bureau a bit later, so we may go back on sort minister sitting across from me so-depending on all of what appears as the order here. those other factors. 4215 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

The question I have is: What role has the Mr. Ashton: When I referred to the 1993 start-up Apprenticeshipbranch had in terms of development date for Conawapa, I was basing it on the of training policies and programs, andwhen can we information the government itself has provided. see the kind of programs put in place for Conawapa You can call it optimistic. You can call it pessimistic. that were put in place for Limestone with whatever To my mind, it is realistic. changes may be made by government? I mean, if that is the government's stated intention, In particular, I am wondering if the department has I take them at their word. 011ce again that is met at all with other departments,minis ters met with dependent upon, obviously, the environmental other ministers, in regardsto the significant cut that hearings which are taking place. I do not think took place the previous year in the community anybody is prejudging that. I assume the college system, particularly in Thompson, in terms government has made the commitment in of apprenticeable trades training, because those conjunction with Hydro for a '93 start-up date on the were the courses that were eliminated, most assumption that all the environmental hearings take particularlyin Thompson, former Limestone training place. courses. So, I guess, the key question is: Where One of the main concerns I wanted to put on the do we sit with training for Conawapa? record was the fact that I really believe it was a major Mr. Praznlk: I notice the Minister of Energy and mistake to cut some of the trades courses last year. Mines (Mr. Downey) is at the table, and he had a I really believe that now is the time to be dealing in very broad smile with the member's optimism on the terms of training needs. It is time to deal with the Conawapa project. It is certainly appreciated. That continuing need to train northern and northern kind of support to it, to a very important project for aboriginal people in terms of apprenticeships. Manitobans, is certainly important, and I am sure One of the key things, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that those thoughts will be shared with all members that the Limestone training authority did do is get a of the opposition. lot of northerners, and in particular northern To answer the member's question specifically, aboriginal people, into the apprenticeship system, certainly the most important question for northern some of whom were able to complete the program prior to the conclusion of Limestone, many of whom Manitobans and indeed all Manitobans: I see he are still in the system. recognizes that there is some difference between now and the Limestone period. One being, we have By theway, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my focus is had a lot people who were in training, partially strictly on Hydro. It is for the communities; it is for completed training, during the Limestone project, the North in general. Many of those people were and we are starting at a very different base, able to finish. The carpenters, for example, who obviously,than when Limestone was constructed. I graduated through the Limestone Training Program can tell him that our department is working very received their ticket. They are now in the situation closely with other departments that are involved in of working in the communities. So it has made a this project, particularly the Minister of Energy and very significant impact on theirown lives and on the Mines (Mr. Downey). We are working along with lives of the communities. them to ensure that we maximize the benefits to So I want to identify that as a concern and ask the Manitoba and the North. ministerto take a lead role because I do not believe I can tell you now that our branch has a person from the information we have received thus far, and assigned to this work. One of the parts of the job we have asked this question of the MEA, we asked that he is undertaking currently is to do an it of Manitoba Hydro, and it does not appear that assessment or an inventory of the people that we there is anything now really going on other than have from the Limestonetrai ning initiative to find out co-ordination between various departments and the who may need extra time in order to complete their Crown corporation. So the concern I would have is, if it is going to be built, thetrai ningneeds to start as work, who is available, who have completed soon as possible. apprenticeships, et cetera. We will certainly, I can assure him, be working to maximize those benefits If there was one problem, Mr. Deputy through the branch, and it is certainly a priority with Chairperson, in terms of Limestone training, it was the branch now. that if it could have started perhaps a year before, June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4216

perhaps on a more reducedsca le. I think given the action for the government because I thinkthat that uncertaintiesthat you can get into in terms of Hydro inventory will be very useful, in fact will be vital in development, possibilities of delays that are terms of the planning. Whatever is goingon nowin reasonable, but if the training had been able to start terms of planning really becomes an academic a year earlier, we would have seen a significant exercise unless you have a goodinventory. increase in the number of people who actually I do have a couple of other questions on completed their trades qualifications, becausethere apprenticeship in a more general sense. It relates are many now at thesecond and third level who are from a couple of cases that have been brought to looking to Conawapa. my attention. One in particular really concerned So I would like to ask the minister if he would me, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. When the individual undertaketo ensure thatthe governmentputs those phoned me on the Saturday of the week, he was training programs into place now, Mr. Deputy scheduledto go to Winnipeg, Red River Community Chairperson, rather than wait unti1 1993-1994, when College, for continuation of second level autobody it will probably be too late for many northerners, in training. He was scheduled to beginMonday, it was particular, to take advantage of work opportunities cancelled. in terms of Conawapa, since they will not complete .. {1510) their traininguntil a number of years down the line. This individual had torent an apartment,paid the Mr. Praznlk: The member'sconcern is certainly a money in advance, has now been faced with the very valid one. Althoughthis departmenthas a very difficulty, potentially, of having a delay in terms of small, animp ortantrole, but a small role, the training the training. What had happened in that particular piece of the package as I am sure you appreciate is case was, the enrollment was a couple fewer than carried to a large extent by the Department of what was considered to be a proper enrollment. It Education, but we will certainly undertake today, puts people in a very difficult situation. I know the with you, in co-operation I am sure with my Apprenticeship branch was quite active in lobbying colleagues, to review thissitua tion. on behalf of this particularindividual. We appreciate the concernyou are puttingon the I am wondering if the minister can indicate table and we will try to work to fairly good time whether he or his department will be dealing with frames that will allow northerners and Manitobans these kinds of situations by asking the community to take full advantages of the opportunities related colleges to be more reasonable. I thinkit is totally to Conawapa. His concern is certainly one that I unreasonable to cancel a course on two or three recognize andas I have indicated before, we are in days notice, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, particularly the process of doing the inventory out of the when the next course may not be available for a Limestone program to give us a sense of people periodof time. who are thereand someof the immediate needs that we can fulfill that were not completed under This individual, by the way, had quit a part-time Limestone. I will note his comments and give an job as a result ofgoing to this,was unable to get the undertaking to pursuethat in that particulararea. part-time job back and ended up in the situation where his own employer was considering laying him Mr. Ashton: Doing that inventory, I would hope offbecause he had budgeted for the periodof time that the government would give consideration to when the employee was supposed to betaking the involving aboriginal organizations in that. There is trades training. It was a periodwhere he was fairly really no inventory currently. I believe the slow in terms of business, so he was going to Departmentof Education andTrai ning has virtually eliminate that position for a few months. So he no inventory in terms of northernManitoba. ended up losing his part-time job, potentially losing Aboriginal organizations, whether it be the MKO his full-time job, losing six weeksworth of salaryand or the various tribal councils or the MMF, do have having to wait another eight to 1 0 months to their own data bases. They have contacts in the continue the program. communities. It is the same with the NACC; they As I said, the Apprenticeship branch was very have the ability to do it. helpful in terms of this and was very supportive of So I would perhaps suggest on the record, Mr. the individual. I am wondering if the minister can Deputy Chairperson, that may be a priority area of undertaketo ensure that this kind of situationdoes 4217 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

not arise again, that there is at least some sort of borderline, some were allowed to rewrite, some reasonable notice put in place so that peopledo not were not, the ways in which that discretion is put end up in this difficultsituation in thefutu re. forward; other concerns where virtually entire Mr.Pr aznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the situation classes fail tests because some of the testing which the member raises is indeed a very material did not relate to the course work that they unfortunate one. My staff have just advised me that had taken, and it is very key to people. the difficultywas that only eight people had applied The bottom line is, the appren�iceship system is for thecourse. But his point is extremely valid. a difficult system for people to have to go through. In fact, I can tell him today that our staff in You go through a period of being in school, often Apprenticeship and Training have been in touch away from home. You go through a period of not with the Department of Education because of this making all that much money compared to what you specific incident and have advised them that it is could be making otherwise. When it comes to certainlyunacceptable to have that kind of lead time problems in terms of testing, it can really destroy in cancelling courses. We hope within the people on a personal basis. I have seen that not-too-distant future that this policy will be changed happento people. in the education area and that we will be able to I would like to ask the minister whetherhe would better accommodate those kinds of course review some of the testing procedures that are put changes. in place to ensure a greater degree of fairness. I So the matterhe raises is very, very valid. I am mentioned the case of people who-some people pleasedto saythat our staff inthe department have are allowed to rewrite, some others are not-1 have already been pursuing that, and I will undertake to a specific case of that, where it has been review it to see that some conclusion is brought to identified-andalso in terms ofthe kinds of teststhat it, and that this does not happen again. are being used, as to whether they are appropriate because, as I said, I can provide information to the As Mr. Ashton: I said, I appreciate the work the minister of virtually entire groups of people who branch has been doing. I have indicated to the have been failed for tests that are not really that individual who contacted me that I would be raising relevant to the material they have taken or even this. I would really appreciate this matter being necessarilyto the trade itseH. pursued, because it is a classic case of the little person, I guess, getting itin more ways than one in Mr.Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member this case, losing two jobs, losing six weeks salary for Thompson has hit upon one of the great and losinga year in terms of training. challenges and difficultiesin the particularbranch at this time. Just to put his concern into contextand to While it may be easy for Red River Community give him one example, one of which I do not think College, some of the officials, to sit back and say, any of us in the area are particularly proud, a new well, what could we do, there were only eight people, intraprovincial construction electrician's I do not think it is acceptablewhatsoever for it to be examination developed in Nova Scotia and cancelled twodays before it starts. If he had a week validated by most provinces, including ours, was or two more notice, he would have probably saved approvedfor use in April 1 992. What it found across the two jobs. the country was, of the 520 who wrote the exam, By the way, he may be fairly soon another one of only 148 had passed. I think the message that it the welfare statistics because that is what he was sending to us right across the country in this indicated, that if he got laid off from his permanent area was that our curriculum development is not job, that is where he would have to go, a very keeping up, by and large, with the standards and unfortunate situation. changes due to technology in particular trades. I have another general issue to raise in terms of I should just tell again, by way of background, to Apprenticeship and Training. I have had a the honourable member that when we came into significant number of concerns expressed to me in power some years ago, we had a situation in the terms of testing. I have had individual cases. I branch where many of our trades advisory knowa number of members of our caucus have had committees, which developed the curriculum, had further cases in terms of testing, relating to tests not met for long, long periods of time. The former which, where some individuals were on the director of the branch, with much effort,managed to June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4218

get those committees up and operating again. Mr. Ashton: I was wondering if the minister There were approximately 40-somecommittees--43 perhaps at the next committee meetingcould table committees, I am advised. We stillhave some way some of the information for members of the to go, and one of our initiatives in this upcomingyear committeein terms ofcomparison , ifthat information will be to increase thework of those committees in could be compiled. orderto ensure that our curriculum is being updated Mr. Praznlk: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if we on a regular timely basis, though it is relevant to the could arrange to have a clerk make copies ofthis, I tradesthat are being taught. can table it right now. So he certainly identified a major area, and I can Mr.Asht on: I hate to say I told you so, but I can assure him todaythat it has come toour attention, recall being at previous committees in contextof this at the management level, very stronglyin the last six department or in context of various Labour bills months, and our efforts to ensure our trades advisory committees are working fully and on a predictingthat this would happen. As I said,this has timely basisare being redoubledin order to ensure been the historical trend in the province in the last 25 years. If one looks at it, I would hope that the curriculum is meeting the standards that are required in particular trades. So I thank him for government would recognize that its policies in raising that particularmatter, and over the next year, terms of labour relations do lead to more confrontation in the workplace, higher days lost to I hope we are going to have some major improvements. strikes. Certainly the actions they have taken the last number of years in eliminating final offer Mr.Asht on: I appreciate that. I do not have any selection, in terms of theiractions of dealingwith the further questions on apprenticeship. Would the public sector, have led to increased losse� liberal critic want to ask questions now, or I can significant number of losses in terms of days lostto proceed to otherareas. strikes. Mr. Lamoureux: I will go back to that. I have a furtherque stion to the ministerrelated to Mr.Ashton: He may becoming back, I believe, on some of the impacts of the proposed Bill 85. I do that. Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am justmoving not intend, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in any way, ahead in my book here. I have some general shape orform , to startthat debate here. Thatwould questions now in terms of labour relations, partly not be appropriate in terms of ourrules and would relating to the Labour Board and partly relating to certainly not, I think, be useful in terms of Conciliation and Mediation Services. discussions. I would just like to ask the minister if he could I thank the minister for providing me the provide the latest information to the committee on information. It does provide a rather staggering days lost due to strikes in Manitoba? numberof person-days lost. We have traditionally been second lowest in the country,and the minister H Mr. Praznlk: I could just have my staff come has indicated last year we had 147,402 person-days forward-Tom Bleasdale, who is our assistant lostto strikes in this province, we had 9,702 workers deputy minister, joined us a few minutes ago. We involved. The next closest year was 1987 in terms also have Mr. John Korpesho, who is chair of the of 7,790 days lost. So we have literally gone up Manitoba Labour Board, and if Mr. Davage would seven, eight, nine times in terms of that. Thatis a come forwardfrom Conciliation and Mediation. staggering number in terms of increases. While In 1991 , and I am not sure exactly what certainlythere are various factors that go into that, information the member for Thompson is looking for, I do believe there is clearly something that should there were 1 0 work stoppages in Manitoba involving be of concernto the government. I would pointout, 10,878 workers and 175,252 person days lost. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that indeed one of the strikes itself was a strike which was a public sector (1 520) • strike where the government was directly involved. Mr. Ashton: How does that compare, Mr. Deputy But I had a furtherquestion on conciliation. H the Chairperson,to previous years? minister wishes to comment on this, I am sure he Mr. Praznlk: It is somewhat higher, considerably will. If I could just placethe questionon conciliation, higher, than in previous years. just to move things along a bit. Bill 85 introducesa 4219 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

new role for conciliators, provisions that deal with significantly higher than the two previous conciliators' report prior to a contract going to first settlements negotiated with the Manitoba Nurses' contract. I would like to ask the minister whether he Union while the party he is a member of was in has had any discussionswith his department on his government. In fact, I would even like to suggest to Conciliation section, because I know there is a fairly him that part of the frustration and why we had a significant concern that puts conciliators in a new strike at this particular time and what many nurses position. said during that strike, was they had been asked to take less on two previous occasions and at that Conciliators traditionally are in a very neutral particular time had very high expectations. situation. This now puts quite a bit of pressure on conciliators. They have to make a recommendation However, I would point out to him, we did manage as to whether the matter proceeds to first contract, to get an agreement through the collective whether there has been good efforts to bargain. bargaining process. I am sure he would agree, a There is also no time restriction on that, Mr. Deputy strike lockout situation is a part of free collective Chairperson. So presumably a concHiatorcould be bargaining. So we did manage to get an agreement in a position for quite a period of time of having to in that case. It is one which everyone lives with. deal with a very important decision, rather than the But I do not think in any way the policies of the traditional role of trying to bring the two parties government in terms of labour relations or the together. removal of final offer selection in any way I would like to ask the minister whether he has contributed to those numbers. In fact, I think 1991 discussed this and whether he is in any way was, over the last decade, sort of a concerned about the change in the role of the middle-of-the-road year in terms of the number of Conciliation division of his department. disputes and the number of days lost when you exclude the Manitoba Nurses' Union. Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to respond to the comments of the member for The member refers to that, but I do not know what Thompson, because his "I told you so" I do not think his alternative would have been other than just to is really warranted. When you look at the numbers open up the Brink's truck, as his Leader once for 1991 , they are certainly large, but he has to chastised the Liberal Party for. So I think one has appreciate, as I am sure he does, that over 80 to put those numbers into context, and I donot think percent of those numbers were represented by the the 1-told-you-so was certainly warranted, strike with the Manitoba Nurses' Union. In fact, of particularly if one references that comment in the the 10 work stoppages experience in Manitoba for member's speeches on the repeal of final offer 1991 , it was below the 1 0-year average of 13 and selection. substantially below the 21 disputes in 1985 and 17 Ultimately, we will have this debate every year, I disputes in 1986. am sure, and the member for Thompson (Mr. and Why I particularlywould like to make a comment Ashton) I will continueto dispute the end result. about the Manitoba Nurses' Union strike, that strike But in one year, I do not think one way or another, the evidence is certainly going to prove very much. took place in a time when final offer selection was I still available. I remember the member for look forward to our debate on that particular issue Thompson (Mr. Ashton) making a very long speech over the next number of years that we both hold these particular responsibilities in our respective about final offer selection and how it would destroy parties. the labour climate and cause strikes. Well, this most significant number of days lost in 1991 was in With respect to the specific question of the a labour dispute while final offer selection was member for Thompson (Mr.Ashton),on Bill 85, I am available to that union but was not used by that looking forward to the debate that we will, no doubt, union. So, quite frankly, the loss of final offer have. The member and I have had an opportunity selection has not affected, I would argue, the to discuss outside of committee and outside of the number of days lost to strikes in the province. House some of the concernsand why this particular provision was brought in. I would like to pointout to the honourable member as well that in the MNU dispute, the initial offer made I am sure he would agree that it is importantthat by the governmenta t that time in the settlement was when a conciliation officer is appointed that he has June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4220

the opportunity to try to conciliate between his Indeed, we will see what happens in termsof final parties. Our conciliation staff have a very high offer selection, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in the successrate in the disputes in which they are asked future. We will see what happens In terms of the to provide their services. I thinkthey are stillrunning impact of other actionsthe government istaking in at over an 85 percent, or this year about 95 percent, terms of labour relationsand particularlywith Bill 85. success rate in resolving disputes. But the bottom line is, 1991 was a terrible yearfor The concern that he raises about putting our the province of Manitoba in terms of person days not conciliationoffi cersinto a bit of a difficultposition in lost. In fact, I do know how far you would have these disputes I think has some validity. I certainly to go back to find an equivalent numberof days lost want to recognizethat here todayat committee as in strikes. we have discussed privately. You would have to go back a long way, Mr. Deputy * (1530) Chairperson, perhaps not to the 1919 General Strike, but you would not be far offha ving to go back Our main task is to provide some role for that far because perhaps not since probably the conciliation in the process offirst contractdisput es. mid-70s when, at that time, an anti-inflation board To date, what has normally happened is a was a major issue. In fact, I remember walking a conciliation officer has been appointed as the act picket line myself in Thompson as part of the fight required. However, the conciliation officer really at that particularpoint in time. never had an opportunityto conciliate because once that step was completed, parties moved right away Mr. Deputy Chairperson, ifwe could continue this into the process or negotiated their own settlement discussion, ifthemi nister considers 147,402 person with the use of firstcontract as a toolin negotiating days lost, 9,702 workers on strike , a that settlement. middle-of-the-road year, I wonderwhat a bad year is going to look like in the future because this is a So our intentionin thebill is to give theconciliation bad, bad situation in this province. We have officeran opportunityto tryto bring the partiesto an traditionally had, if not the lowest, thesecond lowest agreement and not use first contract as a number of days lost to strikes in the province. negotiation tool. I think the member is suggesting Usually, we are second onlyto PrinceEdward Island some time limit, and I certainly would be prepared in terms ofthe lowest number ofdays lost to strikes. to have that discussion with the member on some other occasion. I think he recognizes what we are So I want to indicate that I am identifying this trying to achieve. If there is a way to achieve that concern. We believe that the kind of labour goal, which I am sure he appreciates, we are relations climate that is being fostered by the certainly not adverse to discussing that. government-andit is not strictly final offerselection or some of the things they have done or are doing Mr.Ashton: lwillcontinuethatdiscussion. lwould in Bill 85, it is the whole attitude of thisgov ernment like to indicate that if therewas an awardfor the most and the way it deals with working people and the creative answer in Estimates, I think the minister has labour movement. won it for his last answeron the stati stics. To call a year in which there are 20 times more person days I mentioned in my opening comments the cuts lost to strikes than the highest other year in the first that have taken place affecting the labour years of the last decade, going back to 1984, to call movement and working people,the kind of distrust that a middle-of-the-road year, I think is being very that has developed as to the intentions of this creative on behalf of the minister. government and culminating again in another bill I mean, the fact is, we had a horrendous year in this session, Bill 85, which targets labour, targets 1991 , and the exceptionhe talks about was a public organizing, says that when people say yes to a sectorstr ike. He can try and blame it on previous union, well, maybe theydo not really mean yes. governments, but the bottom line is, it was this The bottom line is, it is time the government government that was involved in the negotiations. recognized that unions are democratically selected The previous contracts were settled. This one was by the members. The leadership is democratically not. There was a lengthy strike. It is reflected in elected. It is time for themto sitdown and recognize statistics. that. As I have said before, perhaps it is time for a 4221 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

ceasefire in terms of the kindsof things that we have believe it will impact negatively on the ability of the seen back and forth. Conciliation department to perform its services in When I lookat this, if ever there was evidence of other areas in terms of providing a neutral process the need for that, the need for this government to that conciliation is all about. Conciliation is totally reach out to the labour movement, to put aside the different from arbitration, and conciliators have a kind of legislativeand funding attackswe have seen totally different role, and I know the minister in the last periodof time, surely it is now. recognizes this. This, by the way, 1991, was also the year of one I realize it is a dilemma that he has put himself in of the worst economic performances ever in this with Bill 85, but I am extremely concernedabout this. province, 10th out of 10, dead last in terms of GOP. I would say in terms of the impact of that bill, this is We shrunk. Our province went back. We still one of the major concerns that we have over and actually have not even recovered to the level which above the principle of the shift to 65 percent instead this government took over in 1988. We did worse of 55 percent, which are importantprinciples. I think than any other province. this is going to have one of the most negative impacts unless there is some way of changing the So this, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, came at a time bill quite significantly. I would appreciate any when the economy was doing badly, as well, and attentionthe minister could provide, and I realize the that is why I say the No. 1 priority of this minister minister may have a few further comments on should not be to be bringing in another Chamber of conciliation or in terms of work stoppages in which Commerce inspired bill on The Labour Relations case I would be prepared to obviously let him Act, picking yet another fight with the labour respond before we go on to the next part. movement. The No. 1 priority of this minister should be to say, years like 1991 are bad years. There is Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I had an a problem out there. Let us see if we can resolve opportunity,while the member was stopping. I think those problems by working with labour and he put the challenge to me to identify some years in management, labour and the business community, which we had such a large number of days lost, and, and working together. of course, he would not want me to compareapples to oranges. I think he would agree an So as I said, I appreciate the creativity of the apple-to-apple comparison is more fair, so in terms minister's answer. I am sure his colleagues-well, I of person days lost per 1 ,000 of paid workers, in think he went even beyond the Minister of Finance 1991 with 80 percent of that being accounted by the (Mr. Manness) so I know has had to stretch things MNU dispute, we have 412. I can take him back to just a littlebit to make dead last good, thatsomehow two years, 1974 and 1975, when we had 422 and when you are dead last, and we have the lowest 456 days lost. We also hadperiods in the '80s from of growth labour income in the country, that is good time to time when we were above that particular for the economy in the longrun. I thinkthe last time number, both in absolute terms and in days per that kind of economic policy was tried was in the 1 ,000 of workers. 1930s with Herbert Hoover and R.B. Bennett, and we saw how effective it was in those days. I should just tell him, going back through the 1980s in terms of numbers of disputes, the years in Well, I think the same sort of creativity is being which we had more than 10 disputes that had a shown by the minister here, but I would say to the strike or lockout situation were 1988, 1987, 1986, minister,please just recognize the fact it was a bad 1985 and 1982. Only in 1983 and 1984did we have year, there is a problem out there and work with the less labour disputes having eight in each year, so I labour movement and the business community to say to the member, and his experience with the resolve it. steelworkers in Thompson knows that one dispute In terms of the conciliation, again, Mr. Deputy with thousands of workers throws those days up Chairperson, before we leave that section, I will compared with one dispute with a small number of indeed be raising committee concerns about the workers like we have had from time to time. I impact on conciliation of Bill 85. I think it recognize fully that the MNU dispute threw our compromises the neutrality of conciliators. I numbers way out into the large frame, but in those recognize the intent ofthat section of the bill, but it other years, even going back into the '70s, some of changes the role of the conciliator substantially. I those were the result of a single dispute in one June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4222

particular large industry, whether it be Thompson Manitoba Federation of labour and by others in the lnco at Thompson, or some of the larger players, so labour caucus at the Manitoba Labour Management it is really hard to get an argument. Review Committee, is the argument that the purpose is to determine the will of the majority, and * (1 540) there are a variety of ways to do it. Where you sign One thinghe did say thatI will agree with and that up significant numbers of members by card, that is is the need to bring the business community and the representative of thewill of the majority. labour community together. I think, although we approached that particular issue from two different I acceptedthat argument. There are otherareas political parties, each of whom are noted to have where obviously there is a great need in this different constituencies to somedegree, and I would province to bring parties together. I think the challenge that statement because I am not entirely member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) would agree convinced of it. I say this to him: He would with me that strained labour-managementrelations appreciate sometimes the difficulty it is to do that in Manitoba go back over a long periodof time, and when political agendas get in the way, and I just it is going to be through various administrations. His make the comment of some of the difficulties we party,when it is in power, tends to be the victim of had. its rhetoric as other parties do when they are in positions of government from time to time. We had the Manitoba Federationof Labourmake H a brief to my colleagues in cabinet this winter. One there is one lesson for all of us, whether the appreciates that we will not always agree on Federation of labour, Chambers of Commerce, everything, and that is fair ball, but I would just have CFIB, New Democratsor Conservativesor liberals, him note, you know, a difficultyfrom our perspective it is that the timeto get into therhetoric in which we in trying to bridge that gap. In that brief to cabinet, all engage from timeto timeis quickly slipping away the MFL wanted to make a statement about the on us as we face momentous economic difficulties legislation we brought in last Christmas dealing with in a quickly shrinking world. the City of Winnipeg and their business tax, a piece The need for all of us to come to the table and of legislation, I believe, by and large, theAsse mbly appreciate each other's position-and I do not just supported. say that for labour appreciating government or The MFL, who agreed with our position in their management's position, but for management brief to cabinet, was not able even to say that they recognizing the right of people to organize and agreed with that position. The way they worded it bargain collectively is fundamental to building that was that they noted the government's position. relationship. They noted it. Well, what does that mean? It was So I think in many ways the member for so obvious, the difficultyit is for the MFL to even say Thompson (Mr. Ashton) and I would agree onsome one good word about a governmentwhich is not of of those fundamentals. I would say to him today, 1 their political stripe when they agree with them. recognize we all have a long way to go to building Now, on the other side of the coin, I know that we those relationships. There is a long history in always have not agreed on everything, but I think Manitoba of all of us getting caught up in ourown that underlines the fact that it needs a lot of bridge rhetoric to some degree, including my party, and it building on everyone's part, and we will take our fair is time that we start putting some of that aside in share of therespo nsibilityin that particular area. building those relationships. He talked in his opening remarks, the member for I point no fingers at anyone in this process, Thompson (Mr. Ashton), about the Chamber of because I think blame for that goes on everyone's Commerce agenda. I think if he looks at proposals shoulders, but it is time, as the member has rightly for legislative change that the Chambermade and pointed out, that we start building better he looks at the package we brought in, yes, there relationships. are very significant differences, certainly in the area I am ready for more questions, Mr. Deputy of automaticvote , where the Chamber position was Chairperson. for an automatic vote in every certification situation. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would I say to him, I accept it. In putting together the suggest dropping Bill 85 would go a long way package, the argument that was made by the towards building better relations with the MFL. 1 4223 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

hope the minister would also acknowledge as well, If themember couldjust clarify for me, is he talking because he talked in terms of the Manitoba about the newspaper reports on Dr. Anna Lee Federationof Labour, thework that was done on the Yassi's report? Crocus Fund, you know, the one example of where Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, for the there has been some co-operation. member's information, the particularreport to which I am sure we will continue thisdebate on Bill 85. he refers was done by that particular unit. I think I do not want to extend it now, but I really think the that the ongoing work of that u11itwas not done in minister should understand the frustration of the consultation with the departmentor in accessing our labour movement having had five sessions in a row information. I think it was a general, generic report of antilabour legislation, of having the Labour that was done. We are in the process of analyzing Education Centre funding cut, seeing the that. Unemployed Help Centre, with which it works very I can tell him, there is a fair bit of information closely, having its funding cut, having seen the cut floating around right now about accidents. of a $4,000Lab our College scholarship, Mr. Deputy StatisticsCanada hasdone a major survey,I believe Chairperson. it was Statistics Canada, on accidents in the I think, if the minister reflects on what has workplace and the cause of them. I do not know if happened the last four, going on five years of I have that information with us. Conservative government, he will recognize why it is a little bit difficult for the Manitoba Federation of Interestingly enough, that information was done with interviews of employees, workers, in the Labour to sit down with cabinet and find very much good to say about the government,let alone in terms workplace. From that, information suggested that of the economic record of the government. SoI will approximately 2 percent of accidents, all types of leave it at that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. We can accidents, occur because of problems in the continue this debate if the minister wants, but workplace,as opposedto a host of other factors. I believe you me, we will do it in Bill 85. am not tryingto downplay that in any way, but I am just trying to demonstrate to him that we have a I have some other questionsin terms of workplace whole bunch of conflicting information in terms of safety and health next. There is a recent extent of difficulties and where they are coming report-which I know I still have not had the from, and we are in the process of analyzing that opportunity to go through in terms of detail-which particularmaterial. pointed to the continuing factof problems in terms of safety and problems in terms of health in the * (1550) workplace. There has not been, I would say to this member, and I would like to ask the minister if the minister has a great deal of work, hard fast work, and data had the opportunity to review the report that came that has been available to us. I say this to him as out just recently, some of the continuing problems well, one of the innovations that we have made in we face in the workplace and what response his the branch in the last year that I am particularly department will be puttinginto place to deal with the proud of is we now have a computer link with the continuing fact of deaths and injuries in the Workers Compensation Board, where for the first workplace in Manitoba. time in the history of the branch, going back to the early '80s, we are beginning to get specific (Mr. Bob Rose,Acti ng Deputy Chairperson in the information on where our accident claims are Chair) coming from . Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am Obviously, one good sourceof informationwhere looking for a bit of a clarification from the member there are accidents or diseases related to the for Thompson. workplace is when affected employees file claims First of all, I would like to introduce, no stranger with the Workers Compensation Board. Until this to the member for Thompson, Mr. Tom Farrell, who year, there was no flow of that information in a is the Director of our Workplace Safety and Health specific way to the Workplace Safety and Health Division. Mr. Farrell wished me to advise the branch. So to a large degree, they were both member for Thompson that it is snowing in his operating in isolation of one another. We are now constituency at the present time. in the process of building that kind of database that June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4224

will allow us to target the efforts of the branch, and difficulty targeting our inspections and doing very I thinkthe member would agree that is a significant thorough work when we did our inspections. There improvement, and I believe we are one of the few were accident investigations and just a general places in Canada where that is actually takingplace. blanket inspection. So we were not really getting into the places where we are having the difficulty. Mr. Ashton: I was wondering if the minister could provide informationon thecurrent situation in terms We started to analyze where we were having the of injuries, both fatal and otherwise, and also greatest risks; the branch did a fair bit of work in indicate in terms of Workplace Safety and Health deciding to target on areas where we were having that one SY was eliminated from the professional reported accidents. That type of industry is getting and technical division. What position was that? into targeting it, and we will be refining that even more since we now have accessto specific firm data Mr.Praz nlk: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, from the Workers Compensation Board. So, with respect to inspections and accidents and stop although the number of inspections is reduced,we work orders, I would refer him to page 69 of the Annual Reportof the departmentwhere that is listed are targeting our inspections. We are also spending more time and effort when we do the in some detail. If I could ask the member to please repeat his specific question with respect to the staff inspections to ensure that we are not just walking year. out, but that there is appropriate follow-up, that we are working with Workplace Safety and Health Mr. Ashton: Yes, the professional/technical committees in specificplaces to solve the problems position in Workplace Safety and Health that was and reduce injury and illness in the areas where eliminated-one support position. there is greatest risk of injury and illness. Mr.Praznlk: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, Mr. Ashton: I would indicate my conceri'H note, the specifics regarding this staff position had to do for example, from the information that the minister with an individual being moved into Workplace referred to me earlier that essentially, for example, Safety and Health last year for some personnel the number ofinvestigations offatalities has actually reasons that I am sure the member would increased. I point in this case to the fact that appreciate it would notbe appropriate to discuss at obviously the degree of investigation be fairly this time. The individual did training in the significant. There is a shift, obviously as indicated Workplace Safety and Health area and has since by the statistics, in terms of more investigations of been reassigned. So it was moving a position from accidents. one branch into Workplace Safety and Health for personnel reasons, and then that individual has Concern has been expressed to me, I know by moved out to another branch with that staff year. people who work, in terms of workplace safety and health, in the workplace about the need for, if Mr. Ashton: In terms of inspections, I was anything,additional inspection. That is why I raised wondering if the minister could indicate some the concern in the SYs. I realize that it was only one analysis as to why there has been a decrease in SY, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am not trying terms of the number of inspections in recent years. to make any big deal about that. It has fluctuated somewhat, but I am wondering if there is some underlying reason for the decrease. I accept the minister's explanation in terms of the Is that the workof healthand safety committees? Is personnel aspects, but the bottom line is that it a different type of inspection? But there certainly, concern has been expressed by many people I have since '87-88, has been a significant drop in terms of talked to, that if there was need for additional the number of inspections on an average basis, inspection, I would say particularly in the city of including last year. Winnipeg. I think part of the problem in terms of safety and health tends to be in the city. Mr.Praz nlk: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, in this particular area the general reason why there I know Mr. Farrell, for example, I am sure will has been that decline is because we have now reflect on his experience with lnco in Thompson. started, even prior to this year, targeting our When someone dies in Thompson or gets seriously inspections. There had not beenin the operations injured, it is your neighbour, somebodyyou know, it of the branch up to a few years ago a general policy hurts everybody. It does not matter what job you to find out the areas where we were having the most have, where you live, you know who it is. 4225 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

I know in the case of Thompson over the years issues on a joint basis, which is really partly there has been a significantdecrease in the number legislative, but has predated that. of fatal accidents, particularly serious accidents as lnco and Local 61 66 in Thompson have for many well, particularly underground, because of some of years sat down and discussed safety matters. So I the progr ams that have been put in place there, would hope that there would some sort of learning some initiated by the company, some by the union, from that experience. I think Mr. Farrell obviously some joint programs. I have seen that difference can contribute quite a great deal o.n thatsince I know and 1 do have a very serious concern about the city. he was a forerunner of that, and pioneered many I am not saying that it is deliberate, but I am saying cases in Thompson from lnco's standpoint in it is a different mentality in some operations in the improving health and safety. city, in the sense that there can be-l do not know I do not have any further comments unless the how to phrase this, I do not want to seem to be unfair ministerhas perhaps some further comments. to everyone, I am not trying tocast aspersions on a whole group of people, but it is all too easy to say, Mr. Praznlk: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, oh, well, that is the risk of the job. I supposethat is I could not agree more with the member for what they saidat Westray in Nova Scotiafor many Thompson, the importance of attitudes and the years, that is the risk of being a coal miner. importance of people to buy into safety being important. I know we can have a whole debate But there are many industrial plants in Winnipeg about experience rating,et cetera, and that is really where it is a risk of thejob, and if someone is hurt, for another day. But I am sure the member for or ifsomeone does die, it is not your neighbour, it is Thompson, just for his information, I found it a not someone you know, and it does not impact the fascinating number when we started to get same way in terms of the company or people in the information from Workers Compensation Boards workplace generally. So I raise that concern. I about firms and their experience with accidents. realize inspectionsa re only a small part of this, and I think that changing attitudes is the even bigger We asked for a list of the best and the worst. We question. used, just for the information of the member for Thompson, the basic number. Those who were I do not believe that changes in Workers having benefits paid out two and a half timeswhat Compensation rates, experienced rating and what they paid us in assessment being on the bad list, not is in any way, shape or form going to do anything and those who were paying us two and a half times of that nature. In fact I would really put this on the in assessmentwhat we were paying out in benefits record more of a c oncern. I am not, once again on the good list. We had 50or so firms on each list, even criticizing themini ster, but I really believe that and what I am sure the member for Thompson particularly in the city there needs to be-perhaps would be totally fascinated by was the fact that they using the example, and I do use Thompson as were people in exactly the same industry, doing example, of what I have seen there. exactly the same thing on the good list andthe bad I actually first worked at lnco 20 years ago, my list. first summer job when I was 16. I remember the It only proves, and I think reinforces the member attitudes towards safety and health in those days. I for Thompson's point, that if you have safety as a remember the big fight over whether to wear safety priority in the workplace, you have the glasses or not. A lot of people viewed that as a representatives of the employees, their union and major infringement on their personal freedom and their management working together. It is usually liberty. getting management wanting to buy into it. I admit • (1 600) that very, veryfreely here . Believe you me, it caused as much commotion You have to get the people buying in. They are within the union when a lot of people found that the able to do something about it. Just one quick union was supportingthat because it was safe. So example, Fisons-Western, in my constituency and it has come a long way from there to today where in La Verendrye constituency, in 1985, had 85 safety proceduresare much greater. You have joint time-lossclaims on 100 employees, or 80 time-loss safety and health committees and you have an claims on 1 00 employees. Their management ongoing process of dealing with health and safety finally decided they had to do something about it. June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4226

Their union always wanted to, that was UFCW. et cetera. thinkI what he will seeis that weare fairly They got together,and they have now gone overtwo consistent with 1990-91 , although we are now years with no time loss. handling a very significantly greater number of I think UFCW, in their recent magazine , cases where we are just providing informationto the highlighted thistr emendous joint efforton safety. I employees or to the workers who call. think it reinforcesthe point made by themember for I am assured by staff over there, that some Thompson (Mr. Ashton) in bringing peopletogeth er, changes they have made in procedure and withthe partly legislative, partly attitudinal. We see some two additional staff, that we should be able to success, solet us hopeeach year, as we go through eliminate the waiting list for a worker advisor within these Estimates, we will see improvements in health the next number of months. So he has identified a and safety in our workplaces across Manitoba. I problem, certainly we have, we are workingwith the share that concern with him. additional staffto resolve that. We have spent a fair Mr. Ashton: I would like to move on to the Worker bit of time, in terms of training and working with our Advisor Office here and ask a numberof questions. people over there, to ensure that officeis running by One concernthat has been expressed, ! know, by and large like a small law office in order to handle many people thatI have spoken too, injuredworkers the needs of workers dealing with the Workers in particular, in terms of the number of cases the Compensation Board. Worker Advisor Office is currently handling, waiting If the member will give me some indulgence, if lists, fairly lengthy delays in dealing with cases, staff couldjust photocopy this list, we will provide it which is not strictlythe result of the Worker Advisor to our two critics. Office obviously, but obviously it has to be tied into Workers Compensation. I have brought some of Mr.Asht on: Mr. ActingDeputy Chairperson, I want the historical datafrom the annual reportin terms of to indicate, certainly I know in the past we have the number of cases. talked about the need for additional resources in terms of the Worker Advisor Office to identify I am wonderingif the minister could indicate what problems with waiting lists. It is my view, the current number of cases is in terms of the incidentally too, that we are likely to see anincrease number of active files currently under in the number of appeals given some of the consideration? legislative changes that have taken place. So I Mr. Praznlk: Yes. I should tell the member for would certainly welcome additionalresources in this Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I think he will be very particular area, and I think it is important to pleased to hear this comment. I think the Worker recognize that we have to be cognizant of the real Advisor Office is one of the best branches that has needs in this area in thefutu re. ever been opened to assist people going through the Workers Compensation Board. They do some I want to also ask a question in regard to the tremendous work there. Worker AdvisorOffice as to whether the ministeris making changes currently in terms of allocation of I give credit to his party when they were in power, staff. I know concern has been expressed in it was an excellentinnovation. am I very supportive Brandon in terms of allocation of thestaff there. I of it as is this government. I am pleased to say, in would like to ask if there are any changes that are this particular fiscal year, we have added being contemplated in terms of staffing of regional significantly to the budget of that particular office. I think over the four years in which we have been in offices either in Brandon or elsewhere in the power, they have received a 53 percent increase province. from the '87-88 Estimates until now, so we have Mr. Praznlk: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, been putting dollars in there. With the increased I can assure the member todaywith respect to the funding for this year, we will be able to put two office in Brandon, that although the current additional worker advisors into place. occupant will be leaving us, I believe, we will be I should just tell him, in terms of the numbers that trying to fill that on a speedy basis in order to ensure he is seeking, we hav!Hn fact, perhaps it would be that service continues. In fact, even as we talk, I best for me to share directly the information I have understand some work is being doneto ensure that in terms of files open, carried over, cases handled, happens. 4227 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

Mr. Ashton: I would certainly appreciate it, brought forward amendments to The Employment because I know it is a significant concern in Standards Act and those amendmentsby and farge Brandon, particularly given the number of people came out of the Labour Management Review served in that area, In the Westman area. I think it Committee and came with the unanimous consent is importantto maintain that particular position. of that committee and were welcomed by both I have other comments which probably will be parties. So it was built by that kind of process. more appropriate in terms of Workers I would hope if we were to se.e any changes on Compensation and our critic will probably be raising employment standards that it would comeout of that areas in there. So I would like to move on to same particular process, and as I indicated earlier, Employment Standards if I might. my initial sense of the twoc aucuses were there were I just have a couple of very briefquestions and I some areas that they wanted to explore in the fall, have asked this of every Labour minister that I have and I have no problem with them doing that. had the opportunity to ask questions to in this Mr. Ashton: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I committee. It is a very simple one. I understand would hope that the minister would be looking at there is a current review underway of Employment changes. I will perhaps repeat on the record some Standards. I think this review has been kicking of the areas I would suggest be lookedat, and I have around for quite some years. mentioned this to previous ministers. I have I would like to ask the minister: Is the minister mentioned in the House in terms of a situation looking at any changes in terms of Employment affecting the disabled, removing some of the Standards in the province of Manitoba? discriminatory provisions in the act. A recent report done by the MLPH pointed to the fact thatthey had, Mr. Praznlk: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think, very few incidences where employers had I would like to just clarify. I know we have had this paid less than the minimum wage anyway. In terms exchange in the House in Question Period. When of private employers, most pay at or higher than we did the review of labour legislationand we invited minimum wage. Private employers are generally all of the members of Labour Management Review quite happy with disabled employees, consider to putforward proposals,a number ofthe proposals them a positive contribution to the workplace, so I that were put forward by the participants in that would ask the minister to look at that. I know it is a process involved changes that were outside ofThe major concern with the MLPH and other disabled Labour Relations Act and in the realm of The individuals. Employment Standards Act. At that particular time, what we thoughtbest was to put thosediscussions I would also ask if the minister would consider over until the fall of next year, and if there are some looking at the whole question of family leave, areas where we can reach some mutual bereavement leave, et cetera. There was a recent recommendation, then it would be up to me as report out that showed that there has been a minister to bring them forward to cabinet and my significant increase in the number of days lost, colleagues for consideration. supposedly to illness, but in many cases because of the pressureof two-incomefamilies, bothparents So that review, in essence, comes out of the working, where a child becomes sick, or there is a general labour law discussions of the Labour death or illness in the family. Right now people Management Review Committee. In fact, my have to lie, basically. They have no rightto that kind preliminary sense of the two caucuses when I had of leave outside of Quebec, I believe, which does met with them was there were some specific areas have some provisions in terms of family where they could find some mutual agreement for bereavement leave. change. I want to say, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I * (1 610) think that is important. I am currently, in fact in about I would just point out to the member for five minutes, going to be going back to snowy Thompson, I know he has referenced before the Thompson because I have my own responsibilities various Labour bills that we have brought in the last to look after my children. My wife had to go to five years to this House. I just point out to him, in Ottawa for a meeting, and I can do that. I have the addition to the Crocus Fund legislation which was flexibility to do that. I know if there is an illness, it is labour legislation, labour-related legislation, we also difficult because of the commuting distance, but I June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4228

can go to Thompson becauseit Is understood in this hard to figureout. Itsounds like commonsense. It forum that is allowable. In many workplaces, certainly is. We put together an easy-to-read people have to face the risk of losing their jobs to pamphlet on employment standards law this year, perform their family responsibilities. and we found it very successful. I just wanted to provide that to my critics. I think surely this isone area where we can get some sort of nonpartisan agreement. I know We have also done some work in themulticul tural Conservativeslike to talk aboutfamilyvalues. What community, and I believe we have publishedour first could be more in keeping with family values than employment standards pamphlet in the Rliplno allowing for parental leave, sick leave and language and will be doing more of that in order to bereavement leave? get that information,particularly into new immigrant communities where information on what people's So I would throw those suggestionsout because rights andentit lementsare not always available, so I know often we are criticized in the opposition for we are trying to provide that. not making positive suggestions. I thinkthose are just a few areas in terms of employment standards His comments on employment standards law I we could start. I have many other suggestions I have certainly noted,and I think thereis some room could make in terms of employment standards, In for agreement and we hope to use the-1 know I am terms of vacations for example. I know if you look here to set governmentpolicy on the matter. Today at the situation in Saskatchewan, they have three I know Labour Management Review wanted to weeks of vacation leave allowed under legislation. consider that further and look at some potential I believe that is something we should have moved recommendations to government, so I hope that to a long time ago in thispro vince. There are many process will go on in the fall time. areas that we could be looking at. With respect to specific grants, the Labour I have a couple more questionsjust generally,and Education Centre that the member referred to, I I would just like to ask a coupleof questionson some believe their funding that they received from the of the funding cuts that I had mentioned earlier. I province was reduced or eliminated prior to me was wondering if the minister considered for this becoming minister. I understandfrom staffthat we Estimates reinstating some of the funding cuts, did do a project with them some timeago, when Mrs. whether it be in terms of the Labour Education Hammond wasthe minister, for some $60,000. So Centre, which, by the way, is continuing and has we continue to work with them, although we have been able to achieve some funding-! am not not had theluxury ofmaking ongoingannual grants. blaming the minister for these cuts; these were You know, regrettably, we were not able to fund made by previous budget years-the Unemployed a student to the Labour College of Canada. We Help Centre where fundingonce again was phased have all been asked to make some sacrifices, but out, whether the minister considered at all we havein fact helpedout in some otherareas. The reinstating some of the funding that is necessary to Workplace Innovation committee, we provided keep those organizations operating on behalf of some printing for them and some other areas. So working people in the province. wherever we can help out in various areas withthe Mr. Praznlk: Yes, first of all, I have asked my staff resources that we do have, we tryto. I do not know to obtain another copy for the Liberal critic, but I if that answers the member's question specifically would like to provide this to-1 haveone copyfor Mr. but that is the informationthat I have. Ashton and another one will be coming for Mr. Mr. Ashton: Yes, I was not in any way, shape or Lamoureux. I just want to point out it is one of the form suggesting the minister had cut the funding. It projects we did in the department this year in the was his government though. I guess what I was Employment Standards Branch, and Mr. Jim hoping was that the minister would be able to take McFarlane who is thedirector of that branch has a lead role in having it reinstated. joined us. It is our employment standards law in, I I mean, I just had the opportunity to visit the am very proud to say, simple easy-to-read English. Labour Education Centre just a couple of weeks Up until this particular point, going back over a ago. To give you an idea of the kind of work they number of decades, most of our material for are doing, they are working on some very significant information was simply references to statutes, very projects now in conjunction with management 4229 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

people. I really think that, once again, the Labour I really cannot believe the mentality ofsome of the Education Centre was the victim of some knee-jerk cabinet ministers who must have made that decision budgetary decisions a number of years ago, in the sitting around the Treasury Board table, because same way the Unemployed Help Centre has been they are ignorant of the work that those the victim of some knee-jerk government organizations have done. I would really throw that decisions-that, because it is labour, this is an area out as a suggestion, as a challenge to the minister. the governmentcan cut because, well, they do not I am not criticizing the minister personally for these support us anyway. That sortof mentality. cuts. They were made before he became a I really wish that the minister would take some of minister, and now he has a chance to reinstate his colleagues, particularly the ones that sit on them, and if not in this fiscal year, in the upcoming Treasury Board, down to the Union Centre to talk to year. the people operating the Unemployed Help Centre Mr. Praznlk: I would like to just point out to the and the Labour Education Centre and talk to them member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) that in total about the work they are continuing to do, because grant dollars that theDepartment of Labour provides the bottom line is, I cannotsee the justification at all from about $270,000 in 1989-90, we now provide for not reinstating some form of support. somewhere about $576,000 in this particularvo te. It was not major funding in the context of a The lion's share of thatmoney has been going into government that spends billions of dollars, but it labour adjustment grants to workforce adjustment provided really significant improvement in the case committees. So we have had a tremendous draw of the Labour Education Centre in terms of on our resources in those particular areas, and we education on workplace issues and in the case of have had a fair bit of success withthose committees. the Unemployed Help Centre, assistance to the I think anyone who has been involved with them, unemployed. I would really make a plea to the they have been a mostworth while exercise. minister to lookat reinstatingthis kind of funding. I At the current time, that tends to be a priority of am talking about core funding to both these this department. I certainly will not rule out at any organizations, along with the $4,000 Labour timethe opportunityto look at some worthwhile work scholarship. I really cannot seriously believe and thatother groups are doing,and I know, I have been acceptthat the $4,000item that has been in place a volunteer at the Unemployed Help Centre in my since 1963 had to be cut because of the financial law school days. Although their work is primarily in situation of the province. a federal jurisdiction, we did manage to, as a It just happened to be the Labour College. I volunteer there, help people secure benefits to mean, let us be clear. Itwas cut because it was the which they were entitled. As an MLA, from time to Labour College. Let us not fool ourselves. The time I have referred people there. So I certainly am bottom line is, I am asking the minister, as Minister aware of some good work that is going on in those of Labour (Mr. Praznik), to go to bat for the areas. His comments about looking at them some Unemployed Help Centre, the labour college other day, we are certainly prepared to do that. scholarship and the Labour Education Centre, and But at this current time, I can appreciate the perhaps convince some of his colleagues that this demand on the resources on the grant side for the kind of-and I call it petty budget cutting, politically departments has been in the area of the labour motivated petty budget cutting-that it really was adjustment committee. So it is a matter of juggling short-sighted, and the proper thing to do would be and finding resources to do this work in some to reinstate at least some of the funding. difficult times, when there are great demands on * (1620) those resources. So I appreciate his comments. I do not mean program funding. I am talking Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, about core funding that allowsthem to continue with we can get into a question of priorities of this the activities. You know, they have done a government I am sure in somegreat detail. I know tremendous job despite the cuts, and they are we could point to many other expenditures that the determined to stick around. I find it really sad, government has no difficulty in finding funds for because I have seen the work they do. which we would consider of lesser importance. June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4230

I look at the Premier's (Mr. Film on) current trip to I say to the minister, surely nowis such a time, Rio, I wonder how much that is going to cost the with the economyand the situation it is in, withthe taxpayer, probably considerably more than the need for co-operation, economically, to put a stopto Labour College scholarship of $4,000. It would the kind of continuing fights over labour relations certainlyhave gone a longway, I know in the Labour issues as we see with Bill 85,as we seewith some Education Centre, would certainly have gone a long of the funding cuts that have taken place. way at theUnem ployed Help Centre. So we canget I really say that, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, into the question of priorities, indeed, we probably because I really believe in this province, thatwe are will on concurrence, because we do question the if priorities of the government. living in a bit of a fool's paradise. Because we believe that it is just going to go away, that we are But I just wanted to, on a more general note, going to recover from the recession, that recovery complete my comments, because Ido have to leave is just around the corner, well, we may recover to get up to Thompson. I just wanted to indicate relatively, we may get back to where we were in once again that we continue to have concerns in 1988in terms of growth afterfive years of lost growth terms of the role of the government, in terms of a and lostopportu nities, but I am not so sure it is going number of areas that I mentioned earlier, in terms of to be as clear as that. the labour relations climate, in terms of workplace safety and health, the need to continue to push I think it is going to require the co-operation of ahead in that area. everyonein thisprov ince, on the economic side, to get us to the point of growth, of sustainable I have referenced also a number of other development, with the kind of goals that I think we concerns in terms of employment standards today all share. that I will continue to raise throughoutthis period of time. I say to the minister, because he is in the I really believe that the agenda of this government position now of becoming a veteran minister, I on labour relations for the fifth session In a row, suppose, as Ministers of Labour have been in the focusing in on changes to TheLab our Relations Act, last few years. We have had a quite a turnover changes that affect working people, I thinkthat is going back the last number of years that I look wrong. I think it is wrong at any time, but it is forward to him putting a stamp on this department particularly wrong at this time. So I hope that with that is different fromthe previous years. some of the discussionswe have had in Estimates today there will be opportunity for that kind of I will say onceagain-and the minister, I know,can message to hopefully influence the minister and, take this comment as a political comment, but I do not mean it as a political comment in the partisan perhaps more importantly, the ministers' sense. I believe there are going to be periods of colleagues. time when governments change things in terms of I hope the minister is saying these things labour relations. I know when we form government internallynow . I hope he is, and I hope therewill be next, there are going to be changes, Mr. Acting a change in attitude because we just cannot afford Deputy Chairperson. the luxury of year in and year out having this kind of We are going to deal with some of the rollbacks thing happen. We need right now to co-operate. that have taken place. I mean, believe you me, it is We will have our debates over labour issues in the going to be very high on the agenda for the next New future, but the bottom line is let us put those aside Democratic Party government. But I say to the for awhile and try and rebuild this province. Thank minister that for every period of change, as I said, you, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. there is a cease-fire in the kind of back-and-forth Mr. Lamoureux: I have a number of specific nature we have in terms of labour relations, because questions that I would like to ask the minister, at the tends to be adversarial in Canada. it very least with the hopes of passing everything,so We have the highest or second highest strikerate that we can have a bit of a philosophicaldiscussion in the world periodically. I say there has to be a quite possiblyon the ministerial salary. But I will at breather, a gap, a time for the equilibrium to least attemptto pass everything up tG the ministerial re-establish itself. Despite our ongoing political salary, if I can get in all the specific questionsthat I differences, there has to be a time. have before me. 4231 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

I want to address four pieces of correspondence government would make acomm itment to eliminate that I have received. The member for Thompson those situations, we would, and I am sure the (Mr. Ashton) had made reference to the Manitoba member can appreciate this, want to have a handle League of Physically Handicapped Inc. that have on justwhat is out there and what the effects of that sent letters, I believe, to all three parties. would be. I do notthink any of us would want to see It makes referenceto the ministerial permission in the situation where we would act with good allowing an employer to give less than the minimum intentions and end up at the end of the day removing wage, and is advocating that this be abolished some of those placements where people are finding because in reality it is just not necessarily needed. an opportunityto do some meaningful work. My question to the minister is, does the minister Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would have any groups or individuals who are suggesting concur with the minister in the sense that we all want to him at this time that in fact that power should to be sensitive to this particular issue, but I would remain with the minister? ask the minister: How many permits have been issued specifically last year and the year • (1 630) previously? Mr. Praznlk: This, as I am sure the member can Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am going appreciate, is not a simple, clear-cut issue. I am to share with the member an experience that I advised by our staffin Employment Standards that became aware of in dealing with this particular there are approximately 130 sub-minimum wage issue. Some time ago I was on Peter Warren's or situations in the province which we and the one of those programs, and someone from the Departmentof Family Servicesare in the processof organization to which he was referred called in and assessing. mentionedabout these permits. I had been minister (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) of the Crown for about eight or nine months at that I think the member can appreciate currently, or stage of the game and had never issued one. He the member is fully aware, that it requires a permit pointed out to me, well, my departmentdid not issue to pay someone under the minimum wage. Under them. I said, well, I think we do. So we went back my direction, our staff with the Departmentof Family and we found out that going back many years ago Services are trying to assess those 130-plus the Department of Family Services was issuing situations and determine where and if,in fact, there permits, and I think things had just been delegated. are situations where a minimum wage payment So we had to get a handle on where things were, would end the job opportunities. I am sure the and that is what we are in the process of doing at member would not want to see a situation happen the current time. where by imposing a rule fully across the province We have now delegated that authority to the that we ended up eliminating positions where Departmentof Family Services because I am sure, people were employed in some way that they as the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) will otherwise would not be. That is obviously the appreciate, staff in my departmentreally are not in balance one has to maintain. a position, the Employment Standards Branch, to We are trying to get a handle at the current time assess the workplaces where these permits are on the reality out there. What are the true facts with being requested. Often they have a very special respect to those situations? I can assure him that I relationship with the Departmentof Family Services. would not want to issue any permits. I have not Sometimes they are funded in part by the issued any permits since I have been minister, Department of Family Services. So the real although we are in theprocess of doing a delegation expertise, and that is why I think you had that to the appropriate staff in the Department of Family department issuing those permits some time ago, Services, but we would not want to issue those was in the Department of Family Services. So we permits as a government unless they were truly in a have formally delegated that authority to them, and situation where the positions would not otherwise we are working very closely to assess those exist. situations. We have to assess that, and I certainly note the I understand currently that we are in the process report and appreciate the report that the member with the Department of Family Services of drafting refers to. But, before one way or another that the a set of guidelines for subminimum wages for June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 4232

disabled workers when those applications come Mr. Lamoureux: Moving on to the next piece of forward. They would have to be-and that is what correspondence I had, again, it was from Stony we are tryingto ensure that there are very, very strict Mountain, in which there is reference, once again, guidelines. If there is no basic reason to have a being made to welding. I guess thebiggest concern subminimum wage other than the fact that the job there is that there is a lot of first-hand experience would not exist without it, we would not issue that doing welding, yet, there seems to be a problem in kind of permit. So we are trying to get a handle on the sense that there is the shop theory or the the situation, as I have indicated, and deal with it, I classroom is really what is lacking. think, in a responsible way. I am sure all members I am wondering if the minister might be able to of this Legislature appreciate the situation and comment as to if the government is considering any certainly do not want to see that abusedin any way. movement to provide some sort of class opportunities, so that in fact they would be able to Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all I write the teststhat are necessary upon leaving the would ask then of the minister is, if he can report institution. back in some way through correspondence some time in the next few months in terms of how many Mr. Praznlk: I am advised that our branch would permits, if in fact Family Serviceshas issued some, like to determine exactly thetraining that goeson at have gone out in the last couple of years, and Stony Mountain Penitentiary, if it is the same as possibly maybe some sort of commenton the 130 Keewatin Community College, and this is permitsthat are currently out there. demonstrated, there is no reason why a similar recognition cannot be given. However, I would Having said that, I wanted to go on to another point out that with respect to pressure welders issue, and what I did is that I, about a half hour ago, licence, the test can only be given afterthree years 45 minutes ago, had given his supportstaff a copy of experience. As I am sure you can appreciate, of two lettersthat I just wanted to getthe minister's that poses a little bit of a difficulty for someone in a commentson the recordfor. One of them is from a penitentiary. welder, or both of them actually deal with welding, So we will have a look at that. I thankthe member and this one particular individual is calling into for bringing that to the branch's attention. I am sure question why it is that there is one particular they will move quickly to determine whether or not awkwardwelding procedurethat is neededin order thetrai ning at Stony Mountain is similar to that which to pass this test, yet the welding community at large we do, and we will do theappropriate audit. does not necessarily use that particularweld at all or virtually at all, with very few exceptions, and Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know makes-it is known as the F-4 weld, from what I a number of months ago the minister, with the federal minister, made the announcement of the understand. Thesuggestion that he is making here Program for Older Worker Adjustment,which was a is that because that type ofa weld is not used year considerable sum of money that dealt with Burns round when it comes todoing the test, it jeopardizes, Meats. I have received one piece of as the individual says in the letter, many livelihoods. correspondence that the individual met part of the I would ask for the minister just to comment on criteria in the sense that, from what I understand, that particular letter. 180 consecutive months is required. In fact, this Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I particular individual had 300 months of service. understand that the differenceof opinion originated Now the problem was that this particular individual was not quite 55. I believe he was a year or two off in that our department was very strictly complying from that. with the testing procedures that have been agreed upon nationally, where some other provinces were I am wondering if the minister can comment in allowing some latitude for various ways in testing for terms of thecriteria. Is thereany room for flexibility, that particularweld. or does he feel that thereis a need for some sortof flexibility? I am pleased to provide the member with a copy of my response to Mr. Hiebert, and I think that some * (1640) accommodation has now been made with respect Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would be to this particularma tter. less than remiss if I did not say to the honourable 4233 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

member that both myself and my predecessors Mrs. there are a variety of players involved in this Hammond and Mr. Connery have shared concerns particular process. Obviously, the Canadian Gas about the Program for Older Worker Adjustment. Association is the organization that has developed As the member may not be aware, this particular the standards for furnaces and like equipment. program is funded 70 percent by the federal They are an amalgam of a host of organizations government. We only provide 30 cents of every and various provincial governments participate in dollar. The criteria was set in agreement with them, that process of developing tl:le standards for and as you can appreciate, to capture those70-cent furnaces. As I am sure he can appreciate, the dollars we had to agree, by and large, to their jurisdiction in this area lies within the provinces, but criteria. we work together on a national basis in order to have So it is a very strict criteria. It troubles me, a set of standards that are applicable across the somewhat, because you could have two factories, country. Obviously, it would be very difficult if we had various standards for furnaces across the two employers, one in the RM of Rockwood on one country, although the standardfor the product fit into side of the road and one in the city of Winnipeg on certain amounts of federal jurisdiction. So we all the other, both doing exactly the same thing with the work together in developing the standards through same number of employees and both close down. the Canadian Gas Association who is the agent for The one in the RM of Rockwood may be eligible, doing the testing. and it is very unlikely the one in the city of Winnipeg will be. It just has to do with the make-up of the They tested this particular product,gave it a seal criteria of the program. of approval. Our department has responsibilities under certain legislation for the installations of this We have requested, and I think we will be doing equipment where there was not a particular with our federal counterpartsa very thorough review difficulty. Obviously, the manufacturer may have of the criteria. But at this present time, because it is some liability if the product was faulty and they were a joint program of which the federal government is negligent. the major funder and the criteria are there, there is not the ability to make the exceptions. I can assure At the current time, a colleague of ours the him that his concern is well noted. It is something member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) had a meeting we have shared since we took advantage of this with myself and several of the people involved in program, and we are in the process now where we which we laid out various responsibilities. will be getting shortly a review of POWA. As he can Currently, we are in the process-! understand that appreciate, though, it is a joint effort and there are there is work being done on trying to determine two players. exactly what went wrong. Until we really know that-end there have been a variety of theories out Mr. Lamoureux: I thank the minister for that there. We had a very thorough discussion with response. He is quite right in the sense that there some of the people who were affected by this are two players, and it is good to see that the player furnace, but until we know exactly what went wrong, on this side in this particularcase is suggesting or we will not knowwhere responsibilitylies, if there is at least giving the opinion or expressing the opinion some way for those people to recoup their losses. that in fact there needs to be some flexibility, that it From my perspective, as Minister ofLabour, until we should not be as clear cut as it is. know truly what the problem was, then we can I wanted then to move a bit more into the assess risk and ways of preventing it in the future Estimates book itself and comment on another issue and whether or not that is within our mandate . That that came up a number of months ago regarding the is what we are in the process of doing. faulty gas furnaces. There were some problems Just hot off the press, I am pleased to tell the there. I would ask the minister what the Department member for Inkster that I am advised today that the of Labour has done to rectify the problems? bankruptcy of Flame-Master would not relieve the Mr. Praznlk: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would product's liability insurers of their responsibility. If like to introduceMr. William Mault who is the director the policy was written on an occurrence basis, the of the Mechanical and Engineering branch. As the underwriters that were on the policy at the time of member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) raises the the manufacture of the defective units would be issue of the Flame-Master furnaces, I should tell him expected to provide coverage. It is also possible June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4234

that the current insurers of Engel Manufacturing We, within government, have a variety of have agreed to provide coverage for the mechanisms that we use to assessthese codesand Aame-Masterproducts on a claims-made basis. make recommendations ultimately to cabinet and cabinet committees. So it is in that process I think this is important news. The member raises currently and working its way through. I should the question at a very important time, and we hope mention as well that in this particular year, we to ensure that information goes out to the people combined our old building codecommitt ee, Building involved. If the member would like a copy of the Standardscommittee and our Are Code committee minutes from our meeting with the member for into a Building Standards committee with Transcona (Mr. Reid) and the people involved, I appropriate subcommittees. Mr. Gus Thorimbert is would be pleased to provide it to him. the new chairperson of that committee and they, Mr.Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I hope I appropriately so, neededan opportunityto review at did not destroy a back-benchquestion in the future. least so the chairperson will be able to make Again, because of the time, I am just going to recommendations to us and that has just recently express a concern thatwe are not going to advocate been done. that every furnace in the city or the province should, Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I in fact, be inspected at the expense of the understand that Ottawa is already asking for input department, but we would suggest thatthere might on the last codes that in fact have been passed be something thatthe departmentcan do for those down to the government, and the government has especially on fixed incomes and so forth,to alleviate had a while to implement them. As a result of them s that they might have some of the concern not being implemented, I would ask theminister how regarding their furnaces. I know, to some extent, is it that they would be able to comment on the that the gas company itself does some work. changes from the last go around for this particular I wanted to move on to Fire Prevention, Mr. go around, because there seems to be a delay. I Deputy Chairperson, and ask the minister in terms am not convinced thatthe delay is an appropriate of how we are making out with the code. There is a one, that in fact we could be moving faster on this bit of a problem from w hat I understand. This is particularissue. something that should have been done possibly a Mr. Praznlk: Yes, I say this to the member for number of months ago, some might even have Inkster that often when codes are developed, there suggested a year ago or so. I am curious as to what are implicationsto them thatare not always thought is the holdup, why we have not seen thegov ernment out withrespect to all of the parties involved. They ratify or sign the necessary papers. are technical concerns that are raised, how they Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is affect the province. It is not unusual from time to another situation where the jurisdiction for the time for certain national code recommendationsto respectivecodes-buUdingcode,fire code,pl umbing be altered, not accepted by various provinces code, et cete ra-by and large, lie within the depending on theirspecific conditions. provinces. There is some federal jurisdiction, but I can tell him now withoutgo ing into great detail, we work together through a national codes there were some technical concerns that were development committee that does on a five-year raised with respect to some recommendations. We basis an update of the codes. are in the process of working out those now in a I can tell the member that the current satisfactory way. They affect various other recommendations are presently working their way elements. We want to make sure thatwe are doing through a system. I knowthere are some out there the appropriate thing for the province of Manitoba, who await these changes very rapidly, but I am sure and it doestake some time. the member for Inkster can appreciate that it is I would just say to the member, the fact that we important for us internally to have a thorough are in June trying to wind up the session and my understanding of the implications of these colleagues in cabinet and myself are busy, as the recommendations with respect to Manitoba and member for Inksteris, with so many House duties at ensure that they are appropriate for the Manitoba this time. It makes it very difficult even just to condition. schedule meetings. 4235 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

Mr.Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again, I Mr. Lamoureux: A question that I had, and I had am going to move on, but with a final note of saying asked the minister during Question Period, was in that there are other provinces that do implement regard to the Labour Adjustment Program. I would themvirtu ally status quo without any amendments. preface it by saying that we have a situation where Ifwe are going to see these types of problems in the the government itself in Manitoba, our national future, that one of the things that we might want to government-andwe have had reports such as the considerdoing is implementing them and then if we Adjusting to Win report, which talked about the free are going to have some changes, make those as trade and talked about the importance of having recommendations for the original go around, if you labour adjustment programs that are going to be will. able to facilitate this rapidly changing economy. I wanted to move on, and I had a number of Again, I would ask, if I can quote my colleague questions on the apprenticeship program. I am from Osborne (Mr. Alcock),a fairly simple question, going to try and keepthis, too, brief. There are 44 and that is, why have we seen a virtual freeze on trades, and there are always new trade that particular program? designations. I know that in '90-91 there were three. Mr. Praznlk: In the interest of time, I would say to Are there any new tradedesignations for the '91 -92 the member for Inkster I think the particularunit we fiscal years? have here is a very unique unit that does some great • (1 650) hands-on work that is one of the unknown secrets If additional staff is needed for that, I will just within government, and I take very little credit for continue on. Another question that I had is in regard that. The credit should all go to the staff who work to the demand for the trades that are currently there. there. Is the government looking at any changes with the What I would like to say to the member for Inkster current trades, and what type of demand is out there is, I am prepared to invite him todayto meet Mr. Bob for those that are there now? Moggey, who has joined us, who is the director of A natural follow-upquestion to that would be what the branch. Mr. Hardial Suhkan, who is the acting the minister has in terms of a future demand for director of apprenticeship training, has joined us as these trades, the areas in particular that the well. government often talks about, and I too have talked I would extend him the invitationtoday to go down about, that there are certain sectors in the economy to the unit. We will provide him a list with all of the thatwe need to concentrate a lot of effort. projects we have worked on, on what we have I think the apprenticeship training program should managed to accomplish, and I would, to both my reflect that. I use, for example, our aerospace critics, give them the opportunity to meet with staff industry, our garment industry. There are certain there and go through the unit. It is really a very areas in which I thinkthat we should be expanding interesting unit, and I think that would give him some some of our expenditures and programs to ensure great insight into what is going on there. It is sort of that we have those sectorsthat we feel are an area an unsung secret, or unknown secret within that we have to have more resources allocated out government, to the credit of those staff. to them. Mr. Lamoureux: I likely will take the minister up on Now, the minister, because of time, might not be that. It will likely be in September, so maybe we can able to and does not have to answer all of the plan on booking something in Septemberfor it. questions today. He can maybe possibly send me Another question was in regard to the Worker some sort of correspondence, as I say, in the next Advisor. I was pleased with the additional two staff couple of months, but he can comment now if he years that were put there, and would only ask the likes. minister-hetabled for me part of the question that I Mr. Praznlk: Yes, the member's thrust is most was going to ask but not quite as much as I was appreciated, and I will undertake today to have my hoping to receive-in regard to the case loads and the staffreview Hansard and provide him with a detailed backlog and so forth that is out there. answer to all of those questions if that is acceptable I would ask if the minister could provide some sort to him. I think we have 15 requests currently for new of a history of the caseloads, let us say from '87 or trades. '88, more so because there was a time when we first June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4236

came in back in '88 when there were tremendous Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 1.(b) Executive backlogs at Workers Compensation. I want to get Support: (1 ) Salaries $341 ,900-pass; (2) Other a better appreciation in terms of ifthe backlog itself Expenditures $79,500-pass. has gone down. We have been led to believe it has. 2. Labour Programs, (a) Management Services: Then I would be interested in knowing ifthe Worker (1 ) Salaries $1 ,352,600-pass; (2) Other Advisor has also gone down significantly, or has it Expenditures $164,000-pass. been increasing? I would just ask the minister if he 2.(b) Labour Division Administration: (1) Salaries could, in fact, bring us that type of information. $1 53,500-pass; (2) Other Expenditures Mr.Prazn lk: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would $28,700-pass. be very pleased to provide him with that detailed 2.(c) Mechanical and Engineering: (1) Salaries information. The only caveat I put on to it is it will be $1 ,493,600-pass; (2) Other Expenditures an apple-to-apple comparison over the last number $281 ,400-pass. of years. A previous director at the branch had a 2.(d) Fire Prevention: (1 ) Salaries policy of opening files even if they were just inquiries $1 ,509,300-pass; (2) Other Expenditures where there was no work to do, whereas our current $1 ,251 ,200-pass. policy is to deal with inquiries, not necessarily to open a file. 2.( e) Conciliation and Mediation Services: (1) Salaries $398,1 00-pass; (2) Other Expenditures I would want that to be an apple-to-apple $53,300-pass. comparison where we are actuallydealing witha file that our efforts are involved as opposed to just a 2.(f) Pension Commission: (1 ) Salaries phone inquiry. My staff is here and will undertake $262 ,300-pass; (2) Other Expenditures to provide that information. You may want to be $55,700-pass. more specific with the director of the branch as to 2.(g) Pay Equity Bureau: (1 ) Salaries what you want. $157 ,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $79,500-pass. Mr. Lamoureux: Just before we leave that particular area, I know there were a number of calls; 2.(h) Apprenticeship and Training: (1) Salaries I think it was well into the thousands in terms of $1 ,041 ,200-pass; (2) Other Expenditures telephone calls that are received. I would $124,400-pass. appreciate some sort of breakdown in terms of what 2.(j) Manitoba Labour Board: (1) Salaries type of calls they actuallyare . So if that is possible, $514,1 00-pass; (2) Other Expenditures I would request that. That is all I will need the $215,300-pass. ministerial staff really for. 2.(k) Workplace Safety and Health: (1) Salaries But I want to make one quick reference to the $2,934,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures employment standards. The member for $690, 700-pass. Thompson (Mr. Ashton) made reference to a 2.(m) Worker Advisor Office: (1) Salaries number of initiatives. I know some of those $502,900-pass; (2) Other Expenditures initiatives that he made reference to, in terms of $50,500-pass. legislative three-week holidays, is something that 2.(n) Employment Standards: (1) Salaries we, too, in fact, had brought forward a private $1 ,501 ,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures member's bill. $149,200-pass. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, next time when the 2.(p) Labour Adjustment: (1) Salaries Estimates are up, we will, no doubt, be able to get $302,700-pass; (2) Other Expenditures another opportunityto add a lot more time, because $402,000-pass. unfortunatelythis just was not quite enough time for Resolution 102: RESOLVED that there be my satisfaction. The next time we will likely have a granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding number of hours, a couple of hours, allocated out to $15,669,400 for Labour, Labour Programs, for the it anyway. fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. 1993-pass. 4237 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

3. labour Special Programs: (a) Payment of the Estimates for theDepartment of Justice. Would Wages Fund $570,000-pass. the minister's staff please enter the Chamber. Resolution 103: RESOLVED that there be We are on Item 3. Justice, page 114, (a) granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Administration and Special Programs: (1) Salaries $570,000 for labour,labour Special Progr ams, for $1 1 3,000. the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Pardon me, 1993-pass. Madam Chairperson, can you refresh me as to The last item to be considered for the Estimates where we are? I heard the page number, but I of the Department of labour is item 1. Minister's believe we have a different book. What is the Salary. At this point, we request the minister'sstaff appropriation number? to leave the table for this consideration of thisitem An HonourableMember: Page 48. 1.(a) Minister's Salary. At thispoint we requestthe minister's staff to leave the table for the Mr. Edwards: Okay. considerationof thisit em. Madam Chairperson: Item 3.(a) Administration Item 1.(a). and Special Programs: (1) Salaries * (1700) $1 13,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $17,000-pass. Mr. Lamoureux: Very quickly, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I did not enter into the great 3.(b) Civil legal Services: (1 ) Salaries philosophical debate that the minister and the $1 ,693,000. member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) had, and I can Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Madam assure both members that in fact on Bill 85 I will be Chairperson, I just have a quick question. making referenceto thestate ment of purposesand From my reading of the Estimates, the so forthat that time. departmentis now charging back all legal services Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? to government departments. Would the minister The item is accordingly passed. have any idea of what appropriation each Resolution 101: RESOLVED that there is to be department would have for their justice services? granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding Would they have a special line saying justice $442,000 for labour, labour Executive, for the services, or would it be under some kind of an fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, administrative appropriation? 1993-pass. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, have we AttorneyGeneral): That expense would be shown completed the Estimates? by all the otherdepartments in that "other" category as part oftheir operating expenses. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: This completes the Department of labour. We will move on to the Civil Madam Chairperson: Item 3.(b)(1) Salaries Service Commission at our next sitting. $1 ,693,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures $131 ,000-pass; (3) less: Recoverablefrom Other Mr. Praznlk: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just before Appropriations$1 ,824,000-pass. you look at the clock, I would like to offer to my two critics,on loanbasis, to try out with their children and 3.(c) legislative Counsel: (1) Salaries in their constituency two of our recent products at $1,270,1 00-pass; (2) Other Expenditures the Fire Commissioner's office. This has becomea $342,1 00-pass. bit of a tradition in these Estimates, and I would like 3.(d) Manitoba law Reform Commission: (1) to provide them to them. Salaries $276,500. Mr.Deputy Chairperson: The time being 5 p.m., Mr. Edwards: Can the minister perhapseither give timefor private members' hour. Committee rise. us now or undertake to give us a list of the current projects the Manitoba Law Reform Commission is JUSTI CE looking at and a progress report on the projects it MadamChairperson (Louise Dacquay): Will the has been looking at for some time? In particular, I Committee of Supply please come to order. This thinkof theone aboutthe professions. Many years section of the Committee of Supply is dealing with ago, there was a referral to the law Reform June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4238

Commission on the issue of what to do about work based on their own feelings aboutwhat kinds paraprofessionals and professionals asking for of issues need to be researched and reported. legislation. That is a particular instance, but They also take referral$ from myself, and theissue generally, a list of the projects the Law Reform of professions was one of the ones that we Commission is looking at and is going to look at in requested the Law Reform Commission to workon. the near future would be useful. We also made a specific request a few years ago, for example, with respect to the Provincial Court, Mr. McCrae: A lot of the information the and they have done some very good work for us honourable member is seeking, I suggest, is there, too. available in the annual report of the independent commission. We will make inquiries of the If they see the wisdom of our priorities, then it is independent commission, and they will, I expect, up to them to make a decision, and we are fortunate make available to us the information the honourable that they have seen their way clear to embark on member is seeking. We will pass it on to the this importantwork. honourable member. Madam Chairperson: Item 3.(d) Manitoba Law Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, Reform Commission: (1 ) Salaries $276,500-pass; acknowledge that there is a listing of the projects. (2) Other Expenditures$1 18,800-pass. One of the things that is not there and that I would 3.(e) Family Law: (1) Salaries $462,400. like to know in particular is the expected date that we might get the reporton the issue of professions Mr. Edwards: Back some time ago, speaking to and what should be done generally in respect of the Law Reform Commission, they issued a report right-to-title legislation, which so many of them are on The Dower Act. Back two years ago in this asking for currently. House, we made substantial amendmentsto many of the marital pieces of legislation. At thetime, there * (1440) was a commitment from the minister to bring in a Mr. McCrae: I understand that in the near future, new Dower Act or a renewed piece of legislation in the Law Reform Commission will put out its that area. That has not been forthcoming. I wonder discussion paper and enter into that kind of dialogue where the research anddevelopment of that piece with respect to professions in the province of of legislation is at this point. Manitoba and that some time afterthat point, they Mr. McCrae: If the honourable member looks at It will go to work and prepare their report. is very today's Order Paper, on page 8, he will see Bill 88 hard for me to tell the honourable memberhow long for second reading, The Homesteads, Marital that will take. It is a big project they are working on Property Amendment and Consequential and may be some time, but I do not know exactly AmendmentsAct. pnte�ection] when we can expect a report. That information would probably more accurately come from the The honourable member asks if this represents commission itself, but I know that we are very close our entire response to the Law Reform Commission to the point where their discussion paper will be out. of 1984, that report. The legislation put through three sessions ago, there were about five bills Mr. Edwards: Just one further question, just in dealing with intestacy and various aspects. terms of the relationship between this minister and the commission, I understand that the commission That is, I suggest, very much associated with the board does determine, on its own,things that should present Bill 88, which doesrepresent our response be looked into that should be reported upon by the to the Law Reform Commission and other Law Reform Commission, but does the minister as consultation that the government has undertaken. well have the ability to prioritize to indicate to them Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, back about a what he considers a priority, have them put month ago, I received a copy of correspondence particular issues at the forefront of their activity? which was sent to the minister about the Does he do that on occasion? Maintenance Enforcement program, and itwas a Mr. McCrae: I cannot unilaterally prioritize the work complaint which was lodged byan individual whose ofthe Law Reform Commission, but if I make a good name was Mr. JeffreyVincent. case, I suggest, the Law Reform Commission He indicated that he had gotten into a situation listens. They set their own agenda, but they do their where he was requested to pay maintenance 4239 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

throughthe program, and he was accused of being On this issue, as well, and we can deal with it in arrears of $2,400, which he disputed. He was under Courts, some time ago the Maintenance threatenedwith summons and garnishment, seizure Enforcement branch was criticized by many of property. He felt unhappy that he had been individuals because they were not answering the threatened wrongfully. He goes on to say that he phone. They had a tape recording on in the considered the response of the Maintenance afternoons. As you know, there are many, many Enforcement program to amountto harassment in desperate peoplewho call up regularly. When they thiscase. do not get money, they want to complain. There was a lot of frustration. Has that been rectified? Is Now, I acknowledge that we, of course,want the there in fact someone at the end of the phone every program to work andto get maintenance thatis duly working day during working hours? paid, including arrears. I wonder if the minister has if had now a chanceto review this particularcomplaint Mr.McCrae: Our usual practice is to make sure and the approachthat was taken by the branch to a member of the Legislature is copied with a letter of complaint or otherwise, our responses are determine whether or not in fact it was the generally forwarded also to those members of the harassment that was suggested in terms of the Legislature. We can undertake, if the honourable immediate moving of the branch to a summons, a member wants, to review this situation andreport to garnishment, a seizure, and fine and imprisonment the honourable member about that. If we sent you in fact was threatened, as well. a copy of correspondence and it has gone missing, I wonder if the minister has a response to that we can always make another copy available ifthat correspondence at this time. is necessary, too. Mr. McCrae: The matter referred to by the With respect to the telephone answering again, I honourablemember is one the like of which we hear recall the issue. I recall our addressing the issue, about from time to time in the manner of but there again, it was done through the Courts maintenance and enforcement. Sometimes Division. If the honourable member would like, I difficulties arise in these areas where sometimes would be better advised to answer that question former spouses or separated spouses do not always when we get to Courts. agree on arrangements for the making of • (1450) maintenance payments. Madam Chairperson: Item 3.(e) Family Law: (1) That is why we have a maintenanceenfor cement Salaries $462,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures branch which does assist in every way legally and $50,700-pass. possibly that we can to ensure the other recipient Item 3.(f) Constitutional Law: (1) Salaries spouse receives what is properly coming to him or $592,600. her, mostly her. Mr. Edwards: I just have one question. It struck This actually does come under the Courts me as I was looking at these figuresthat under the appropriations, and if the honourable member wants Salaries section, there are less peoplebut it has cost me to get into the details of this matter, we can $140,000 more. Why is that? review our files and then we can get into a Mr. McCrae: Judging by the line in the Estimates, if discussion about it in Courts, that is what he wants. it is clear there has been someone added, and we If he wants to talk about generalities, I can do that, do not have our constitutional staffsitting with us. I but we could have assistance from staff from the can undertake to clear that for the honourable Courts Division too, if the questions so indicate. So member and let him know the staff complement and it is up to the honourable member what he wants. the increase in the staff complement that these Mr. Edwards: I do not think there is any need at numbers reflect. this point. Perhaps the minister could send me a Mr. Edwards: Justto be clear-and I do not mind copy of his responseto Mr. Vincent and that might the minister taking it under advisement, but what I assist. I assume he may have done that in any am looking at is the Adjusted Vote '91 -92 , salary event seeing as I got a copy of the initial letter, but years 11 , quantified at $457,500, year ending March I would ask him to send me a copy of the letter to 31 , 1993, salary years 9.18, almosttwo salary years Mr. Vincent. less, cost $595,700. That is a fairly dramatic June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4240

increase for the loss of almost two positions. That those principles as the cornerstone of the position is the question. If the minister wants to address it paper they put forward and proposed that the later, that is fine. conference seriously consider community-based alternatives. Mr. McCrae: It is clear, Madam Chairperson, that these numbers do not paint a picture that is readily There was then a program description and explainable. The honourable member does have a structure segment of the conference, and I am told point in wanting to have that cleared up, and I do that there were some concrete discussions and too, so we will getthat information, and perhaps later some concrete proposalsthat came forward. I have this afternoon I could come back to this specific not had the benefit of seeing those as yet. I wonder question. if the minister can indicate what research and Madam Chairperson: Item 3.(f) Constitutional discussion is going on in the Co rrections Law: (1) Salaries $592,600-pass; (2) Other department to expand the sentencing alternatives Expenditures $86,700-pass. for our judges. Resolution 97: RESOLVED that there be granted Mr. McCrae: The very last few words? to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,329,900 for Mr.Edwards : Thequestion was : What is going on Justice, Justice, for the fiscal year ending the 31st in the Corrections branch in terms of research and day of March, 1993-pass. drafting of legislation which might expand the Item 4. Corrections (a) Administration. sentencing options available to courts? I am looking specifically at measures in the area of Mr. Chomlak: Madam Chairperson, I just have a restorative justice and the things John Howard few questions in this area in the hopesthat we can Society has proposed. Is there in fact an ongoing move onto other matters. research initiative to expand and build uponthings Can the minister perhaps table for us in this like the fine option program and other programs, House statistics on the average daily inmate mediation, which have been successful in dealing population in the province of Manitoba? I believe with offenders other than in an adversarial court those had been provided at some time in the past, system? and I thinkit might be useful if we could have copies Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, in spite of of those. difficult times economically and financially for a Mr.McCrae: Yes, Madam Chairperson. provincial government, I believe we continue to Madam Chairperson: Item 4.(a) Administration: enjoy a good working relationship with the John (1) Salaries$561 ,900-pass; (2) OtherExpenditures Howard Society. Indeed, the honourable member $165,900-pass. was present with me on arecent ocCasionwhen the new human justice facility was opened over on Ellice 4.(b) Adult Corrections: (1) Salaries Avenue I think it was. We had a look around that $26,007,700. place and visited with some of the people there. Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, the John Indeed, the honourable member's question is Howard Society sent me some materials in April timely. I met this morning with Graham Reddoch, about restorative resolutions. They had a conference, and I know the minister and Mr. Demers who is the executive director ofthe John Howard are aware of it. They put out a position paper, the Society, and he made, during the course of our purpose of which was to educate people on meeting this morning, a reference to restorative restorative resolutions to provide innovative resolutions in the seminar orhowever you would call the dialogue that has been had. He made reference community-based responses to offences. They to that, and he will be in further touch with the talked about a number of aspects: financial government about that, perhaps to offer advice, responsibility, accountability, compensation, cultural sensitivity and sentencing options. They perhaps toput forwarda proposalof some kind. We came to a conclusion in their paper that the always have the door open for Mr. Reddochand his principles of accountability and responsibility hold people. implications for offenders, not just victims and the The honourable member will also remember at community at large. The steering committee of the opening of that facility that I made the point that restorative resolutions indicate that they supported the John Howard Society, since its beginnings with 4241 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

John Howard, has been able to remain true to the province has played a role and an important one in principlesthat started it all up, but it is also been able developing things and maintaining them, such as to make changes as society has changed. So the the Fine Option Program, mediation and in the John Howard Society remains a perfectly relevant young offenders area, such things as alternative organization in today's world as it did back in the measures and open-custody arrangements. In my days of John Howard. They are talking about view, all of them have been successful and have accountability and responsibility on the part of added to the range of options open to the courts and offenders. That is exactly what the rest of society is thereforehave been positive additions. Sometimes talking about, too. So thinkI we will continue to work there are problems but generally over time, they togetherand go forward in various areas. become very, very useful programs. I often hear When we were talking about crime prevention from judges, frustrations that they would like as yesterday and the day before, the John Howard many options open to them as possibleand certainly Society name came up in thosediscussions and will support that. continue to, because John Howard Society If the minister is saying that the department is believes, as the honourable member does and asI actively pursuing that on a regular basis and do, in crime prevention. That is one way to keep a listeningto some of the ideas that are coming out of person outof correctional institutions: to have him organizations like John Howard, thenthat is good. or her not committing crimes in the first place. So I encourage the department to do that, given the the John Howard Society is committed to the very obvious limitations of incarceration in dealing principlesbehind crime prevention. with offenders. With regard to the specific question about The increase under the Provincial Remand different or intermediate sanctions, of course, the Centre line of some $356,000 is explained in the honourable member would know thatsan ctionsare notes as reflectingthe higher operating costswithin dealt within the CriminalCode for the most part, not the institution, start-up costs and higher volume to say that provincial authorities do not have input associatedwith the new Provincial RemandCentre . and say, because we do. We havethese cont inuing What is meant by higher volume at the Provincial committees of assistant deputies or continuing Remand Centre? How did that increase the cost by committees of officials responsible for corrections some $356,000? and probation and so on. I am told by Mr. Demers, our assistant deputy minister responsible for Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, as the Corrections, that he is going to be involved very honourable member knows, with the present soon in further discussion about the federal plans insufficientcapacity at the present Remand Centre for the future. That is goingto happen on June 12, we have inmates staying at Heading ley on a remand when he will be meetingwith federal officials. basis. He knows that, so he knows that some if not all of those people will be coming to the new centre . • (1500) We cannot ignore, either, the so-called So, the work is going forward. At this point I zero-tolerance policy with respect to domestic cannot give the honourable member a detailed violence which is having its effect on our remand account of where they are at in those discussions, facilities. but these things have to be of necessity and for the So thatwould be the volume we are referring to. most part when it comes to legislation-a matter of For the most part, l think we are talking about moving federal legislation. But that is not to say that we do remand people from Headingley over to the new not have ourinput. We do not always get what we want, but in some of the legislative initiatives centre. That is what we are talkingabout when we brought in by thefederal government in the last few are talking about increased volume. years there are areas where we can see that our Mr. Edwards: Well, that leads me to two quick input has been a key partor an importantpart of the questions about the Remand Centre: One, what is result. the new holding capacity of the Remand Centre; and secondly,when will it be anticipated that it will open? Mr. Edwards: I appreciate that criminal law is a federal matter, and I appreciate that they have Mr. McCrae: We expect the building to be primary jurisdictionin the area, but it is clear that the completed mid-July. We expect to be able to move June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4242

in mid-September. Maximum capacity is290. That goes back a long time. It is nice to see a building is when you take into account double-bunking. there now. It hasbeen on the booksalmost as long as the Brandoncourthouse andother things that we The Remand Centre project is very important to have been talking about for many, many years. this government, to everyone who is interested in justice issues. Ithas been a long time coming-the In any event-{interjection] No, later on we can honourable member agrees. have an update on that, but it is very goodto see a building. It has gone through its contortions, but The point that I was about to make, though, was there isob viously success at the end of the road and that plan was on the books long before we ever got that is good. here. There is no criticism coming from me here. This is an extremely big project and an important There was one question I wanted to ask. There one. So in the four years we have been here a lot was a real concern about the air quality in that of time has been spent not only in making it happen building because of the discovery that there had in more recent years but in the planning before that. been a gas leak in the soil for 20-odd years. My It would be wrong for me to make any apologiesfor question to the minister is: He came up with a plan that, because the department immediately sensed to deal with that and vent it-and as I understand it the urgency that the government felt was attached in layman's terms essentially to vent it in a space to this project, and a lot of work had to be done. between the ground and the start of the building. Fans were going to blow out the fumes. I know that when you are sort of following the progress in a peripheral kindof way that, you know, Has that system been put in place? If it has, he "what is the hold up?� sometimes come to mind. says construction will be completed in July. Have That is quite understandable, but a lot of planning air quality tests been taken in the building to ensure goes into this kind of aproject. When it is complete that system is working so that this is not a sick and ready to go later this year there will be a sighof building, as it were, in which some of thefumes from relief. that enormous amount of gas which leaked into the soil gets up into the building. That is our concern, I We will still have to be looking ahead, though, know of the MGEA whose workers will be in the because demands never seem to let up. We are building and should be for anyone having to be in trying very hard, through alternate measures, as the the building. Are air quality tests going to betaken? honourable member has suggested, to find other Have they been taken to ensure that thesystem the ways to deal with offenders. We, like the federal minister chose hasbeen successful? government, do view offenders who offend against the person in a different way than other kinds of * (1510) offenders, and I think that is for very good reason. I Mr. McCrae: There will be a good deal of time am talking about violent crime. There is a different spent between mid-July when the building is psychology on my parton that, andwe need to keep completed till mid-September when we actually our eyes and our mindsopen for how best to achieve move inmates in there. That time will be spent results. Simply warehousing people, I realize, is not ensuring that all systems are working as they are ever, probably, the right way to deal with offenders. supposed to be working. My recollection of it was So it is a constant challenge to try and be on top that these fumes were found to be there. The of the state of the art in the sense of kinds of design of the building had to be altered somewhat-! programs that are available and the kinds of cannot remember the expense involved, but it was programs that we can afford as a province to put into over $1 00,000 to build a crawl space and a place, so that we recognize that dollars spent on ventilationmechanism to get those fumes out. I am rehabilitative mechanisms are dollars well spent not an expert in gasoline fumes, but I guess over the because of the obvious cost of running a justice years that there will come a time whenthose fumes system. will eventually dissipate but they will not dissipate Mr. Edwards: The minister is quite correct that it immediately. has been on the books for a long time. By my So we have to make sure that mitigationstuff that estimation, 1982 was the first recording in this has been put in there will do the job and that, as I House. The minister at the time I think was Mr. say, those two months are there to ensure that all Evans, the member for Brandon East. He is right, it systemsare working. Ofcourse, we will be making 4243 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

sure thatwe meet all environmental requirements to · Mr.McCrae: The honourablemember agreed with ensure that there is safety in that building for the me that it was necessary to build a new Remand many, many yearsthat we hope it will serve us. Centre. He would probably agree with me and the Madam Chairperson: Item 4. Corrections (b) Ombudsman that we need to upgrade facilities at Adult Corrections: (1) Salaries $26,007,700-pass; the Agassiz centre for youth. [inte�ection] He said (2) Other Expenditures $5,758,200-pass; (3) yes in both cases, Madam Chairperson. The External Agencies and Halfway Houses honourable member, I assume, would agree with $498,700-pass; (4) Less: Recoverable from Other me that conditions at Headingley are in need of Appropriations$1 70,700-pass. attention. The honourable memberis only nodding his head this time. 4.(c) Correctional Youth Centres: (1) Salaries $8,558,700-pass; (2) Other Expenditures Mr.Edw ards: Yes. $1 ,234,500-pass. Mr. McCrae: Yes, he is saying yes. The 4.(d) Community Corrections: (1) Salaries honourable member agrees with me and the City $6,406,200-pass; (2) Other Expenditures Council in Thompson and all the people in $839,700-pass; (3) Program Development Thompson that they are ripe and ready for new $1 ,502,700-pass. remand facilities there. I am assuming the honourable memberwould agree with me on that Resolution98: RESOLVED thatthere be granted point. to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $51 ,363,500 for Justice, Corrections $51 ,363,500 for the fiscal Mr.Edwards : I will give you a cumulative answer year endingthe 31st day of March, 1993;>ass. at the end. Item 5. Courts, (a) Court Services: (1) Salaries. Mr. McCrae: Now he is telling me, he is going to Mr.Edw ards: Well, here we are at CourtServices, give us a cumulative answer at the end. Madam Chairperson, and I wonder if the minister The honourable member will agree with me that might give us an update on a project close to his thereare probably a number of otherareas of capital heart. I know the Brandon courthouse was a works, including the Brandon courthouse, that campaign issue for him, and I agree withhim on the require attention and have not been given the stancehe tookin the 1988 election on the Brandon attentionthey have neededover many, many years courthouse and the need to improve services. It in this province. Thehonourable memb er will agree has become an important judicial centre in the with me, I am sure, that only in the last few years province. Itshould be. Theproblem with the courts have justiceissues been given the kindof prior ity-or is legendaryin the community. better priority. I will not ask him to agree that the I knowthat there was a consultant's reportdone. kind of priority he would give it, but an increased I know thatthe consultant's report wasreceived and priority in the overall spending of government gave some options. I wonder if the minister is in a budgets, and the honourable member has position to tell us whichoption he will be choosing, confirmedthat. if any, and when somethingmigh t be done. I might So now I ask the honourable member to help me. just add that the improvements in the courts are-it He has been helping me- is my understanding,certainly some are directed to Hon. HarryEnns (Minister of Natural Resources: better accommodating the judges and the lawyers That couldbe your first mistake, Mr. Minister. in a fashion which the city of Winnipeg has had for some time, but the real advantage of new courts in Mr. McCrae: I do not know, Harry. Winnipeg has been, in my experience, the ability to The honourable memberhas been very helpful in have interview rooms and other such saying the same things I have about the Brandon accommodationsof the citizens who come to court. courthouse. There is a recognition thatthe Brandon Those are very important aspects of a modem courthouse is in need of attention. But I have also courthouse which Brandon is, unfortunately, listed a number of other capital needs of the lacking. Departmentof Justice, and I assume my colleagues Is the minister in a position to give us a status on this side ofthe House can name capital needs in report on what is happening with respect to that their various departments aswell that we wish could project? be met more quickly. June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4244

We know that the chief justice of the Court of office in 1988. Because of, yes, neglect, because Queen's Bench for Manitoba, for three years of need to direct resources into other areas like running in his annual reports, has been talking about health care and education in the past, justice deficiencies at the Brandon courthouse. I know services in the past under previous governments, that. I am very aware of it. I live in Brandon. I plural, those services havenot been given the kind worked in the Brandon courthouse. So nobody,and of priority that I as a Minister of Justice would like to certainly not the honourable member for St. James see them given. (Mr. Edwards), is more aware of the deficiencies at However, when you look at the recordof the past the Brandon courthouse than I am. four years in Justice, any objective observer-and So then we come down to a question of how we the honourable member for St. James is objective, are going to prioritize our expenditures. Was it not occasionally, and he would agree, too, that there necessaryto spend those $23 million to build a new has been a new emphasis, a different emphasis on Remand Centre to remove inmates from those justice issues in Manitoba. I take a fair amount of inhumane conditions that exist at the Public Safety pride in that. I also know there is much left to be Building? The answer seemed to be a resounding done and part of that job to be done is to improve yes. That was the right thing to do-an expensive facilitiesfor the delivery of justice servicesout of the project, but theright thingto do. If there was money Brandon courthouse. available, the answer about all the other facilities I * (1520) have spoken about would be, yes, too. So I think the honourable member was asking I comefrom a community where we run a hospital, something a little more specific than the answer I we run educational facilities and other social have given him response to; but in specific terms, services. Brandon is a vibrant, growing-not fast there have been reviews made of the facilitiesand enough, mind you-but a growing community in the how we might approach the problem. There is a province of Manitoba. Brandon has been doing need to make decisions for future upgrading or rather well in many areas of concern with the renovation or facilities in Brandon. No final present government in office. decisions have been made. The Department of I can go into some of the supportsthat have been Government Services has been working on this provided to the community of Brandon and matter in conjunctionwith the Departmentof Justice. southwestern Manitoba by this government, The honourable member knows we have one including things like decentralizationand things like feasibility study that has been completed and a major overhaul and renovation of our Keystone another one has now been completedas well. Centre, the unification of the Family Division of the From the firstgo around, it was clear as was the Court of Queen's Bench and the conciliation side in case with the Winnipeg Remand Centre, the plans terms of family court, downtown redevelopment that were put together needed to be refinedand the dollars, millions of dollars for the upgrade of our secondstudy refined the plans thatwere laid out in sewage disposal system, and a brand new building the first study. What remains now is some in Brandon for the Alcoholism Foundation of decisions to be made and the availability of the Manitoba so that they can combine their dollars necessary to spend multimillions of dollars administrative and service delivery functions under to upgradethe courtfaci lity. one roof. All of those things have happened, and yet there remains this issue relating to the As a person coming from Brandon and as one courthouse. who has worked in both the Winnipeg andBrandon courthouses, I look with some envy, believe me, at The people in Steinbach needed improved the facilities here in the city of Winnipeg and I say, facilities for the delivery of court services, and we well, how come that is? How come the previous have been able to meet that demand. The people government, for example, poured all those millions of northernManitoba need betterfac ilities to operate of dollars into thecourthouse here in Winnipeg and court services, too. forgot altogether about Portage Ia Prairie and The point that I am trying to make is that the Brandon? They let the roof of the Minnedosa problems in terms of justice facilities did not just courthouse practically cave in. So it is that kind of happen a week or two after this government took an issue, too. 4245 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

Yet, the honourable member for St. James The projects themi nistertalks aboutin the Justice continues to raise the issue of the Brandon area and health care are important. I simply draw courthouse. In fact, the honourable member to the minister's attention that in 28 out of 30 appeared late, I am told by the media in Brandon, administrative support lines in his department, the for a newsconference on the steps of theBrandon amount of money spentthis year went up. The total courthouse. Well. You know, the people of of thatis $965,000. I wonder where his priorities are Brandon know the issues, too. They do not know with respect to that, and how much it might have them as well, the honourable for St. James would taken to have done something or gone some way thinkas he, but actually theyknow theissues better. towards what he committedto do in 1988which was The people in Brandon-{interjection) I will wind totry to improve the courthouse? down. The people in Brandon are very, very I am just holding him. Whether or not I think it is concerned about health care, and they are very, priority really is not that relevant in the sense that I very concerned thathealth care reform in the future am not the government, but that is why I was so will not impact negativelyon the ultimate delivery of interested to see the minister. Of all the issues in healthcare services in Brandon. Brandon, healthcare-health care was in desperate So when it comesto avery bad number of years shape in Brandon in 1988. There were all kinds of problems with social services. The NDP had been in a row of government revenues and it comes to in government for years. There were numerous difficultdecisions that need to be made about how problems in Brandon. What did the minister put in government revenues are going to be spent, my his pamphlet in 1988? What did he think was a advice in the city of Brandon is for sure, for sure, priority for Brandon? The Brandoncourthouse. So maintain and, if possible, enhance health care I do not have to lookfar to find evidencethat he saw services. Protect what we have and make sure that it as a priority. when we look to new modelsof health care delivery, make sure thepatient is theone thatyou thinkabout. Since then he has not seen it as such a priority, Make sure the patient is your bottom line. If the rather he sees a $965,000 increase in courthouse has to wait a little longer, then I guess administrative support across his departmentin 28 out of branches; that is his priority. He says he that is going to have to be necessary. That isabout 30 does not have money for crime prevention, that is as honest an answerand straightforwardan answer only $1 00,000. That leaves $865,000. What might as I can give the honourable member. he have done in Brandon witheven a portionof that, The bottom line is this government will make the even a portion? I have never seen the feasibility right decisions, and this government also has been study. I would like to see it. I have asked. I have listening to the Minister of Justicewho identified as not been able to receive it about the Brandon a ratherurgent problem the Remand facilities in the courthouse. I would be interested to know what city of Winnipeg. There is $23 million in capital costs were associated with enhancing that expenditure, and I will do my best to make the courthouse. In any event, those are commentsthat changes that are necessary for Brandon, but at the themi nister has, I am sure, heard before, could have appropriate time and when that decision can be predicted here today. justified on the basis of available revenues to The point is that all of the attemptsto throwoff an address the problems that exist. excuse as to why the people of Brandon have not Mr. Edwards: I only comment that I completely been given some answer does not sit too well with understand that the minister is under many me when he is increasing his own executive support demands for money. Everybody wants money, by 11.5 percent,when the departmentalincrease is Thompson, Winnipeg, Brandon. We can always 4.3 percentand administrative support, across the use money to give more programs and build more board, is $965,000. That is a question of priorities facilities. That is true. It is a constant, I am sure, that he has chosen. challengeto decide. What a government has to be So do not talk about priorities that he threw aside accountable for more than any other time when in 1988 when he put out his ads in the Brandon Sun. money is tight is its priorities. Then the government Do not talk about priorities when he is beefing up really has to be sure that it is spending the money administrative support across his department and in the right places. across this province and say, somehow, that he is June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 4246

only tunnelling money into all of these worthy Elkhorn, where did this person who comes from projects, more worthythan the Brandon courthouse. Cromer stand on those issues, she and her He is furthering the administrative size of his own colleagues in the liberal Party? They said, oh, no, department. do not build those facilities in Minnedosa and Madam Chairperson, so his arguments ring Elkhorn;put something else higher up on your list of hollow, I am afraid afterfour years, and they did with priorities. Well, I am here to tell you, Madam crime prevention when he used the same excuse Chairperson, the people of Minnedosa and the two daysago and, to a lesser extent, admittedly, but people of Elkhorn did not appreciate that point of to a lesserextent they do here. view expressed by Avis Gray and by the honourable member for St. James. In fact, ifthe member for St. I wonder if the minister can tell us when he is going James and Avis Gray had their way, the sick people to make a decision on this. He has two reports, he in the Minnedosa area and the sick people in the tells me. That is the first I have heard there are two Elkhorn area would not have a place to go. reports. In other words, there is the feasibility study and there was a second look at it, as I understand So the honourable member for St. James ought his answer. When might a decision be anticipated? not to lecture me or anybody else for that matter, even the members of the New Democratic Party. Mr. McCrae: I do not know if the honourable He ought not to lecture anybody about priorities, member speaks for the Liberal Party of Manitoba or because I sense from time to time that the for one particular honourable member from St. honourable member's priorities have more to do James or just who he speaks for, but he tells me not with making a point or two in front of the television to talk about priorities. I bet you, Madam cameras than they have to do with improvingsociety Chairperson, when that by-election in in general for Manitobans. Crescentwood comes along, that this honourable member for St. James will be out knocking on the This is a littledebate that comes up from time to doors for one Avis Gray, and saying what a fine time with the honourable memberand myseH, and I member Avis Gray would be- think it happens every Estimates process or every An Honourable Member: She is from Cromer. time he gets a chance. Thisis thesame honourable member who on otherEstimates exercises spentan * (1 530) inordinate amount of time on matters that had less Mr.McCrae: The honourable membertells me she todo with delivering justice servicesto people than is from Cromer. I know a little bit about this other far less important matters. The honourable honourable member that we are talking about. I member knows about my criticism of him in those know she is seeking a seat in this legislature cases, too. representing the people of Crescentwood. I do not propose to raise that criticism of him this The honourable member for St. James was time around except to say that the honourable talking about priorities and that I should not talk member for St. James knows very well the kindsof about priorities. I donot think he wants to talk about pressures that are on the justice system. He knows priorities either, because a little whiiiH'Iow here he very well the kinds of pressures that are on is defendingthe constructionof new courtfa cilities governments these days all across Canada. All he in a centre outside the city of Winnipeg, but where has to do is go and look in Newfoundland or New was this honourable member, who is going to be Brunswick or maybe even some NO provinces knocking on doors for Avis Gray, when Avis Gray where they are hacking and slashing all over the was sittingacross from me in this Chamber saying, place. Is it because they are mean-minded NOs or oh, do not fix that roof on that courthouse in Liberals? I do notreally think so. I think they have Minnedosa; that is not important;do not fix holes in financial pressures just like we have here, except I the roads for people who live outside the central think maybe we have handled them sooner here and area, the city of Winnipeg here in Manitoba; do not better here so that it is not as bad here as in those do that; spend it on something else that is important provinces. to me, a Liberal, and the honourable memberfor St. James? An Honourable Member: With no help from the opposition. Howis it today-oh,and I forgot. When it came to construction of health facilities in Minnedosa and Mr. McCrae: With no help from the opposition. 4247 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

Madam Chairperson: Item 5.(a) Court Services: Flin Flon. I believe it is fair to say that my (1 ) Salaries $3,203,700-pass; (2) Other departmentis looking,with interest, at proposals to Expenditures $969,400-pass. improve Justice services in the small and more 5.(b) Winnipeg Courts: (1) Salaries remote communities outside Thompson, The Pas $6,484,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures and Rin Ron, so we can take the pressure off $1 ,277,200-pass. Thompson, The Pas and Flin Ron and deal with people and the justice issues closer to the home. 5.(c) Regional Courts: (1) Salaries $3,585,900. That is a goalthat I have. · Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I want to raise MadamChairperson: Item 5.(c) Regional Courts: very briefly the issue of court services inthe North (1 ) Salaries $3,585,900-pass; (2) Other and court reporter services, court clerking. There Expenditures $1 ,518, 1 00-pass. have been numerous complaints that have come into my office, I am sure the minister's, from those 5.(d) Judicial Services: (1) Salaries in northern Manitoba, particularlywith respect to the $6,610,800-pass; (2) Other Expenditures court clerking. I wonder if the minister can indicate $391 ,900-pass. with respect to Transcript Services and also with Resolution 99: RESOLVED that there be granted respect to the availability of clerks in the North, to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $24,041 ,000 whetheror not all of the hiringhas been done, who for Justice,Courts, for the fiscal year ending the31 st has been hired, and whether or not the full staffing day of March, 1993-pass. complement that he envisages for northern Manitoba has nowbeen reached. Item 6. Protection of Individual and Property Rights (a) Manitoba Human Rights Commission: Mr. McCrae: I commend the honourable member (1) Salaries $1 ,045,500-pass; (2) Other for raising issues of justice in the North. The Expenditures $276,600-pass. honourablemember for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin)does that occasionally and so do other honourable 6.(b) Canada-Manitoba Legal Aid: (1 ) Salaries members. Justice services are harder to deliver in $4,454,000-pass; (2) Other Expenditures northern and remote areas than elsewhere. They $7 ,966,800-pass. do require the attention of government-! hear the 6.(c) Public Trustee. honourablemember for The Pas speakingfrom his seat and I cannot quite make outwhat he is saying. Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I received in our office some concerns about the public Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): I said, you never accounting of funds in the Public Trustee's Office. listen. This is specific to a letterthat wasreceived by our Mr.McCrae: He says, exceptI neverlist en, which office by a Ms. Marlene Johnson. the facts of the matter would show that he is very, very wrong about that. Each time the honourable Her attorney, Mr. Bjornson,who is with Tupper & member raises Issues with me, whetherthey are in Adams, was involved. I wonder if the minister can writing or otherwise, I do turn my attentionto those indicate what improvements have taken place. I issues andtry to do my best. Within the resources know that there has been some effort to increase that are available to us, I try very hard to solve the the accountability of the funds that the Public problems. Trustee handles. I know there were somecriticisms in years gone by, whether they were well-founded Indeed, the staffing situation in the past year at or not. I wonderif the minister can indicate whether Thompson, The Pas and Flin Flon has been or not there have been improvements in the improved in terms of the actual arrangements and accountingsystem in the Public Trustee's Office. staff-year allocations. I can get further information for thehonourable member for those three centres * (1 540) and make it available to him. Mr.McCrae: All of the information requested of the The pressures in the Northare there just like they Public Trustee by the legal counsel for the person are everywhere else in the province. I find that if we to whom the honourable member refers has been were to put more attention on the remote areas, I made available. Beyond that, if there is something believe there would be found a way to take more specific that the honourable member wants, I pressures off centres like Thompson, The Pas, and will see what I can do. June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4248

Mr.Edw ards: Just on that point, have there been complement to deal with the increasing number of changes in the way, in the manner in which the concerns that are being expressed about seniors' Public Trustee is handling the public funds and is abuse and the problems that are experienced inthat accounting for them? Have there been changes in area? This has been raised repeatedly in past the procedures recently, in particular in the last years. Is there a move to have the Public Trustee's year? Office dealwith those increasing concerns, or is that going to be dealt with more in the area of social Mr. McCrae: As a result of recommendations servicesand in the Departmentof Family Services? made by the Provincial Auditor, the Public Trustee's Office has set up an investment committee in order Mr. McCrae: Any government activity related to to better invest the funds in the common fund. That improving services for vulnerable persons-and I was, as I say, recommended by the Provincial should say senior citizens. I am talkingabout senior Auditor and followed up on and carried out by the citizens, but vulnerable persons are already served Public Trustee's Office. That amounts to a by the Public Trustee, but when you get into a significant improvement. specific reference to services for seniors, those kinds of initiatives are co-ordinated through the I wonder if, while I am on my feet, itis probably SeniorsDirect orate and the Public Trustee is always not in order, but if the honourable members agree I available to work with the Seniors Directorate and is could give a brief answer toa question askedearlier. consulted from time to time by the Seniors One of them had to do with some correspondence­ Directorate. oh, now Mr. Bruce has gone already. I will give it to the honourable member. It was in reference to Madam Chairperson: Item 6.(c)(2) Other somebody that the honourable member referred to, Expenditures $632,300-pass. a Mr. Vincent. The most recent correspondence 6.(d) Land Titles Offices: (1) Salaries me to him I will sh from are with the honourable $5,401 ,200-pass; (2) Other Expenditures members, it was here a few minutes ago. $1 ,054,600-pass. The other point has to do with the Maintenance 6.(e) Personal Property Registry: (1) Salaries Enforcement telephone answering business. That $605,700-pass; (b) Other Expenditures was a problem sometime ago. There was a $485,300-pass. complaint, I believe, maybe coming from the honourable member but maybe others as well, that Resolution 100: RESOLVED that there be there was an answering machine installed. That granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding issue was addressed and was not found to be $24,407,200 for Justice,Protection of Individualand appropriate that there just be an answering Property Rights, $24,407,200 for . the fiscal year machine, but nonetheless there are a lot of ending the 31st day of March, 1993-pass. telephone inquiries coming into the office of the At this time I would request that themi nister's staff Maintenance Enforcement staff. please leave the Chamber, so that consideration So what we have is not unlike other agencies you may be giving to 1.(a) the Minister'sSalary. might call, you phone, if all the lines are tied up there Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, I thinkwe had is then a message that puts you on hold, I guess, agreed to revert back to the Aboriginal Justice until someone is available to come to the phone. Inquiry at this point. My suggestion would be-l We have replacedthe answering machine with that have not canvassed this-that we deal with that kind of a service which is better, and we think serves before we deal with the Minister's Salary, that we go the public better. back to the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, which we Madam Chairperson: Item 6.(c) Public Trustee: agreed to discuss. I am open to other suggestions. (1 ) Salaries $2 ,485,200-pass; (2) Other Madam Chairperson: At this pDint, we will Expenditures $632,300. determine, indeed, what the will of the committee is. It Mr. Edwards: I just have one other questionin this is treated as a separate printout on page 153 of area. What will bethe effecton the Public Trustee's our Estimates manual, so I will need consensus of Office, if any, of the move to vulnerable person's the committee. regime? Is there an impact in the Public Trustee's Mr. Chomlak: Yes, I believe that was the Office? Is there a move to enhance the staff agreement we had tacitly agreed to earlier, thatwe 4249 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

would deal with the AboriginalJustice Inquiry at this Justice Inquiry Report could be dealt with point, prior to theMin ister's Salary. separately. Now, whatever arrangements can be made, we Mr.McCrae: Madam Chairperson, I did not hear are prepared to accommodate it,as long as we deal everything my colleague said, and this is a with the AJImatters. Well, we will give leave to deal colleague that you should listen to. He has been with whatever aspect that theminis ter-if we want to around for a long time and knows this place very deal with the Minister's Salary now and then- well, but between the opposition critics I think we might have worked somethingot.it that will meet the An Honourable Member: We will do the AJI and technical problemsthat arise. thenMinist er's Salary. If we deal under Minister's Salary with issues Mr.Chomlak: In theMinist er's Salary, we will allow related to Aboriginal Justice Inquiry-this may well staffin here. Is that the- be what my honourable colleague has just * (1550) suggested-wecould deal withall thosethings, pass or whatever we are going to do with my salary, and Mr. McCrae: Well, the only thing aboutit, Madam then in a very shortened kind of way just pass that Chairperson,I am just worried about my salary here. other appropriation. I think that might resolve this So, with the honourable member for St. James (Mr. difficulty. Edwards) saying,well, you know, we will talk about Madam Chairperson: Is it the will of the your salary afterwards, andI do not say all the right committee?[Agreed] things, I am a littleworried about how I am going to pay the bills. I guess I can agree thistime, because Mr. McCrae: The other thing we have to agree to if, I believe that we will get throughthis one way or the is by leave, we can agree to allow my staff to be other. here for that discussion then that is forthcoming I understand. I guess, if all it requires is the leave of this part of Madam Chairperson: Is there leave granted for the committee to do it that way, I would yield to the staff to remain during thisdebate ? [Agreed] advice you get from the Clerk's Office about that. I am willingto agree if it can be done by only haH of Mr. Lathlln: Madam Chairperson, it is five minutes the House. to four and I know we have to wrap up by five o'clock. Nevertheless, I welcome the opportunityto be able MadamChairperson: Order, please. I have been to ask questionsand give commentswith respect to advised by the Clerk that, Indeed, technically we the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report that was should be dealingcompletely with the Department released last August. of Justiceand then movingto theAboriginal Justice I am also disappointed in a way, Madam Initiatives. However, it can bedealt with by leave of Chairperson,that thetime that hasbeen allotted for thecomm ittee. Estimates purposes-the AboriginalJustice Inquiry. Mr.Enns: Well, MadamChairpers on, if it is of any I just want to say thatI feel I am in my rightful place further help to the committee and the members here. I have been relegateddown to approximately opposite, the issue dealing with the Aboriginal 60 minutes for Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Justice Inquiry encompasses several other questioning on the Estimates process. ministers as well, notablythe minister responsible An Honourable Member: It is what we agreed on. for Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey). It Mr.Lat hlln: certainly involves the ministry of Family Services, I know. I am not just lookingat you. I the ministry of Natural Resources-in fact, those am speaking as an individual, as a memberfor The Pas. ministers who comprise the subcommittee of cabinet that are charged with the responsibility of (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Chairperson, in the dealing with the inquiry report. I tend to agree with Chair) the advice that you have been given, that we ought However, I am used to thatplace. I will take the to conclude the formal deliberations of the back of the bus again, and carry on with the Departmentof Justiceat this time. questioning here, Mr. Acting Chairperson. I think our House leader andthe minister would I want to start out by saying that it was the agree to set aside such time that the Aboriginal aboriginal people and their leadership who, as a June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4250

result of the Helen Betty Osborne case in The Pas The reason that I was disappointedwas because, and subsequently the J.J. Harper case, initiated the in the words of the minister, and those wordssort of call for the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. The gave me an indication at that time how his aboriginal people played a very significant role in government was going to treat that report, because convincing governmentsand the institutions of the the minister in his own words said that the AJI needfor such an inquiry. I myself was a chief at the Report is only the opinion of two men. That has time of the trial of those people who committed the been indicative of government's attitudetowards the crime against Helen Betty Osbornewas held in The reportever sincethen. Pas, and it was at that time that I became very Nevertheless, I am going to keep my opening involved with the aboriginal leadership to call for an comments very brief because I know time is running inquiry into the case that was held in The Pas. out and I want to ask the ministerseveral questions As a result ofthe lobbying and the pressures that regarding the AJI Report. I just wanted to express were put on governments by the aboriginal those opinions and observations first. leadership the commissioners were finally The first questionthat I wanted to ask the minister, appointed. We called on the NDP government in I guess, is this budget that has been set aside-1 the spring of 1988 and they agreed to call for an believe it is a million dollars. Perhaps I could ask independentjudicial inquiry into the administration the minister to give us a breakdownas to howthose of justice as it affected aboriginal people. funds are going to be expended, how they are going Commissioners worked for almost three years to to be flowed, the criteria, whether aboriginal produce, what I call, a very comprehensive report, organizations are going to befunded asthey have Mr. Acting Chairperson. been asking? Maybe we will start off with that, Mr. Indeed, from my perspective, I think the Acting Chairperson. commissioners did a tremendousjob because they * (1600) went beyond what I initially expected and I am sure Mr. McCrae: I thank the honourable member for what the government initially expected. Besides his comments, Mr. Acting Chairperson. I do say to reviewing the manner in which the legal system him, I can grant him his disappointment in the fact deals with aboriginal people, they also reviewed and that, as he says, the time allotted for discussion of produced wide-ranging recommendations in the the Justice Inquiry Reportis relatively brief, but I do area of treaty land entitlement, aboriginal have to say that is not my fault. I am here to answer self-government, aboriginal women, and also they the questions; the Estimates processis really driven recommended a separate aboriginal justicesystem for the most part by members of the opposition in and so on. the honourable member's caucus and in the Liberal So, in August of 1991 , the commissioners caucus, and it just plain is not my fault. I am released the AJI Report. The Minister of Justice prepared to answer as many questions as there are (Mr. McCrae) remembers at that time, at the time of asked and to take as long as it needs to take, but the release of the report we tried very hard, along that is not my call either. with the aboriginal leadership of this province and These matters are extremely important. The indeed throughout the country, to ask the honourable member knows as well as, or better than government whether or not it endorsedthe reportas I do, that a disproportionate number of aboriginal it was produced. people find themselves involved with the justice Of course, as we all know, the government system. That is something, I believe, we all accept, refused to take a position on the report until six and we all agree needs desperately to be months later and that position again was very addressed. disappointing. I remember the Minister of Justice, I know the honourable member sometimes is in response to my questioning in the Chamber, prone not to give present governmentthe credit it telling me that the member for The Pas will be sometimes deserves in various areas. That is part pleasantly surprised with all the announcements of the game that we play here, part of the back and coming forward. Of course, I was surprised, but I forththat happens in this Chamber. I regret that the was not surprised pleasantly, Mr. Acting honourable member will not try a little harder to be Chairperson. more constructive in his commentssom etimes, too. 4251 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

I know he is criticalof me andthat is fair. When I do The honourable member profoundly disagrees not do the job properly, then I deserve to be with the approachtaken by thego vernment. Is that criticized , and I accept that, but when the fatal? Does that have to end the process? I say no. honourable member, whether directly or indirectly, The Grand Chief of the Manitoba Assembly of doubts aloud my intentions, my goodfaith in these Chiefs has outlined profound differences in his matters, I get offendedand the honourable member approach as opposed to the government's gets offended, as he points out and I understand approach. He is joined in some respects by the that. I really do. three other major aboriginal groups with whom we have been talking. In various areas there might be I know the honourable member quite well now profound disagreement all the way over to afterhaving taken part with him in the constitutional agreement, maybe, in someareas. discussions. I know a little bit about how he thinks and I know the reasons he thinks that way, and So do we let thedisagreemen ts stand in theway those reasons are well documented also in the of progress? In other words, do we make all the history ofthis country. Itis not a pleasant partof our wheels stop because this government, part of its history, andit is notsomething that any of us can be approach differs from the approach that would be proud of, no matter which side of the House or no favoured by Grand Chief Fontaine, for example? Well, so far that appears to be what has happened. matter which culture you happen to belong to. That is profoundly unfortunatefor ordinary, average Those things are clear in the Aboriginal Justice aboriginal Manitobans. Those people are not being Inquiry Reportand they are assertionsof fact of our served by this approach. history that I accept and want desperately to do somethingabout. We have extended, as a government, a hand of welcome to the four aboriginal groups, those being So where do we go from here? The honourable the Assembly of Chiefs, the Metis Federation, the see member wants to see change. He wants to Indigenous Women's Collectiveand the Winnipeg-! improvement. I want to see change, and I want to never remember the name-the Aboriginal Council, see improvement. So what limitsus? What are the I believe it is called,here in Winnipeg. things that hold us back from achieving very, very quickly the kinds ofthings we both want to achieve? We have extended a hand thatsaid, joinus. Give We are goingto disagree alongthe way abouthow us your advice, your criticisms are welcome. We we get there,and that Is fair, there is nothingwrong know you disagree about the issue of separate systems. But do we really disagree? I do notknow, with that. An improved social condition for human because we have never takenthe time to sit down beings to live in in thiscountry is what he is talking and talk about just what is the nature of our about and it is what I am talking about. We are disagreement. You accept what we want or weare going to argue till the cows come home about how not going to sit at the table of the working groups we should get there. Meanwhile we should be with you. That is what I have heard so far, and the doing somethingwhile we are arguing, and I accept government's response is, here is the direction we that. are prepared to go in, join us at the table. So we are limited by some philosophical So you can see the different approaches, but differences, party to party, culture to culture. We there is so much to be done. Why do not we get are limited but not necessarily stopped, and where started? We are never going to agree about we are limited we should learn to cut the everything, but we will, indeed, get started. partisanship, cut through barriers between our Hopefully it will be with the advice,the participation cultures andsometimes just plain cut the crap when of spokespersonsfor aboriginal communities. That it comesto our relationshipsone with the other. So, is what we want. Moneyis here in the budget. That on January 28, this government cameforward and is the other limitation. It would be nice if it was more, announced its response to the Aboriginal Justice but we do not know howmu ch we are going to need Inquiry, to the condemnation of the honourable thisfiscal year, because nobodyhas joined us at the member opposite and the condemnation of other table to tell us what the priorities in those areas of aboriginal leaders in this province, but not all people recommendations the government is prepared to in this province and not all aboriginal people in this move on, which ones we ought to move on first, province. which makes the best sense, which community is June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4252

the right one to start in since we cannot do it all ought to think again. Because in spite of the overnight, and everybody recognizesthat. suggestions made by the honourable member for So where is the best place to start? We want that Sl James (Mr. Edwards), about some day therewill kind of advice. We have asked for that kind of be another kind of government, we will see advice. It is being withheld from us. Because something different; do not hold your breath, I say various individuals, including the honourable to the honourable member for St.James. Certainly member for the Pas (Mr. Lathlin), disagree do not hold your breath forthe electionof a Liberal fundamentally with our approach. government. But do not hold your breath for even a We accept separate systems, a sort of Liberal government to make the kind of changes sovereignty of justice systems or we go nowhere. being suggested by thehonourable member for The Sorry, Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is not acceptable Pas. to this government. Nobodyis going to beserved if Do not wait for an NDP government. How long we never talk. was the NDP government in office in this We have been not talking for 125 years, since province?-since 1969 or so when the first New · Confederation and perhaps before that. What good Democrats were elected here in the province of has that done the aboriginal people of this country? Manitoba. What kind of progress have we seen for I ask the honourable memberfor The Pas to think aboriginal people in their neighbourhoods, in their about that because I desperately want to join hands communities under that government or other with him-desperately-and many of his colleagues governments? in the aboriginal community. So let us make a start and let us work along I am not promising, I cannot promise, the kind of together, even though we have differences. We change that we all would like to see tomorrow. I always have had differences and we will never stop cannot promise that it will happen tomorrow havingdifferences. One person withthe other, one because I am limited, as any government in this government with other, one culture with the other; funds. country is limited, by the availability of Let us there will always be differences. get that rightout front, and be honest and clear about it. Yet I desperately want to see change in our So is it a bottom line for the beginning of justice system. discussions that all our differences be resolved by our accepting what the honourable member for The There are a lot of problems for aboriginal people Pas says, and then and only then, we can get on and they go far beyond thejustice system. If we did with progress? Surely that does notstand the test not have those problems we might not have so many of reason, Mr. Acting Chairperson •. problems in the justice system. Those problems are in the social system and the economic system So I appeal to the honourable member, as I have and the political system, but the fruit, if you want to done in the past, use the powers that you have as call it that, of all of those problems is found in the a member of this Assembly, as a former Chief, justice system, in disproportionate numbers in our leader; use the powersthat you have in an effort to system. bring the parties together. I have asked the I say the present stalemate, standoff, whatever honourable member before to do that, but he keeps you call it, waiting for the other side to blink, all of reading petitions each day or every few days in the that, what good does that do anybody in this House to bring forward separatea or parallel justice province? What good? Does the honourable system, a separate or a parallel justice system as member for The Pas think that if he waits long he sees it, as he defines it. enough, perhaps for a Liberal government in The world does not revolve around the Manitoba, perhaps for a NDP government in honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), it Manitoba, that all his dreams will come true and all revolves around all the people in the world. In his people's dreams will come true? Manitoba, it revolves around all the people in • (1610) Manitoba, many of whom are aboriginal persons Think again, Mr. Acting Chairperson. I do not and many of whom deserve a betterdeal than they know what you were thinking, Mr. Acting are getting from me and a betterdeal thanthey are Chairperson, but anybody who was thinking that gettingfrom the member for The Pas. 4253 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

I want to give them that better deal, and I want his heels in, he would not take any action. Thatis them to start working on a better deal. If the why the aboriginal leadership are having a lot of honourable member does not believe that, then we difficulty in working with the minister. are not going to go anywhere with the honourable If they saw the minister for one instance member, but we are going to go somewhere. co-operating, then the aboriginal leadership would Mr.Lathlln: I did ask a questionthere somewhere, come to work with the minister, but so far the and I do not believe the minister answered the minister wantsto call all the shots. We saw that on question that I asked, but I will come backto that. Day One when the AJI Report first came out. He said, this is the work of onlytwo men; we should not I just want to say to the minister that he is wondering why the aboriginal leadership has been get too excited. That is the way the minister has having difficulty working with the minister and his been operating ever since the end of August last summer. department. The answer is very simple. Maybe if I give the ministersome sortof an illustrationto point He is wondering why the aboriginal leadership is out why thefrustration is out there in the aboriginal having difficulty working with him? Perhaps the community. ministershould look at himself for onceand see how he operates and see how he affects people, I used thisexample when I was chief in trying to because it was not-{interjection}-yes, the minister describe what it is that aboriginal people want, and says, I offend him sometimes, what I say. I used the example of a vehicle. The minister is in thedriver's seat, and I am a passenger in a vehicle. I can tell the minister too,Mr. Acting Chairperson, Itis up to the ministerwhere this vehicle is going to that he really tried mypa tiencehere one afternoon go. It is up to the minister how fast this vehicle is when he started accusing me of whatever activity going to go or howslow it is going to go, where it is that I might have been involved in, in regards to going to go, whetherit is going to go around in circles aboriginal women, child abuse and so on, when I or is going to make a left turn or go forward or was a chief. He really tried my patience that whatever, or stay still. afternoon. Yes, he offended me. Do you knowwhy? Because theminis ter is atthe I did not react in a way thatthe minister carried on controls, andI am just a passenger. Okay? If I ask thatafte rnoon here. I decidedto be betterthan him, theminister, if we want to make a lefttum five miles Mr. Acting Chairperson. That is why, when he down the road, and If hedecides to go right through, works withthe aboriginal leadership, that is theway well, I do not have any choice, I have to go along he carries on, and no wonder the aboriginal with him, and I have to accept whereverhe is going leadership does not wantto work with him. to take me, whether it is goodfor me or not. I have I want, again, to ask him: Could he provide us to acceptwhat theend result is goingto bring. with a breakdown of how his budget thathas been-1 I believe that is why theaboriginal leadership are believe it is a million dollars now, that was set aside having a lot of difficulty in working with the minister for the AJI. What is it going to be used for? The because so far the minister has been telling criteria, who is going to be funded, and so on? aboriginal people, you do it my way or no way at all. Mr. McCrae: Well, ifthe honourable member, Mr. I canguar antee you that is what he tried to do in the Acting Chairperson, is prepared to put on the public Manitoba Constitutional Task Force. Everybody record of this Chamber that his view is that during talks highly about the harmony that went on in the our work on the task force, ifthere were difficulties, taskforce . they came from the minister himself, you would think Well, we had a lot of differences, and I must say that the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. that mostof the difficulties that we had came from Lathlin) would have the courage to be a little more the minister himself. He used to speak highly of specificthan that. tryingto work with aboriginal people, about how he He did not show that courage, so maybe he will recognized the problems that they were having. He show a little courage in his next question and be a even went so far as to say, we have no problem here little more precise about what it is that bothered him recognizing the rights of the aboriginal people to about my performance on the task force. My view Inherent right to self-government,and yet, when the of the task force wasthat we came to that task force Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report came out, he dug with our own perspectives. I see my signature on June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4254

the task force documents. I see the honourable the budget process when he will noteven suggest member's signature on that document. Then he to his own former colleagues, the Assembly of talks about these difficulties. Manitoba Chiefs, that they get together with the Is the document not an honourable document? government and talk about priorities for the The honourable member's signature is there. So is implementation of Aboriginal Justice Initiatives? mine. Maybe he should shed a little bit of light He will not even talk abouthow money should be instead of making vague and mischievous spent. Instead, he wants to talk about things that comments,without backingit up with any hard facts. bother him all the time. Well, the only way things Then he talks about my making accusations are going to stop bothering the honourablememb er against him in this Chamber respecting child abuse is if he talks about thosethings. We can have an and women, to usehis words. I would like him to be honest dialogue, one with the other, andsort these specific about that, because I think this is a very things out. I am here. I was there on the taskfor ce. serious matter that the honourable member is I worked with the honourable member. I thought raising and borders on a question of privilege. I do both of us were working very hard,and I also thought not propose to raise a question of privilege at this both of us were trying very hard to resolve moment, becausethis, as I understand the rules, is differences that we might have approached that not the timeto do it. process with. I see a document with both of our * (1620) signatures on it and I wonder, is he repudiating that document? If he is, it would be interesting to know H the honourable member has something to say, if rather than horsing around and pussy-footing that, too, because he is repudiating the document, around, let him come right out and say it, if he has he was signing that document on behalf of his a problem. The honourable member should be colleagues in the N.D. Party across the way. clear. If he has a problem with difficulties on the He says that I offend him. I really have to say task force, then why did he sign the task force today when I hear the kind of smeary sort of report? innuendo that the honourable member is raising in If he has difficulties about accusations, true or this House this aftemoon, I feel offended. I feel otherwise-otherwise I suggest-if he has difficulty entitled to defend myself from the kinds of with accusations made by myself, then let him stand accusations I hear from this honourablegentleman in his place and raise a question of privilege. He is opposite, but he will not particularize anything a member of this House. He is an equal to every exceptto say that I accused him of something todo other member in this House. with child abuse and women. Well, it sounds pretty You see, I have trouble with innuendo, the kind serious to me. Tell me, what did I accuse the indulged in by the honourable member for The Pas honourable member of? Surely, he owes this (Mr. Lathlin). If there is a poisoned atmosphere House an explanation for his accusationagainst me. here, the honourable member need only read his So I await with interest the honourable member's own words spoken today. He sitsfirmly in his seat response to the referencesto the taskforce and to and talks about who created them. Well, if there is the referencesto comments in this House. a problem, tell me what it is and we can deal with it. I have answered his question about breakdown We are never going to solve the problems the on the budget. I would like to break down the honourable memberwants to solve if you sit around budget. It would be nice to have aboriginal help making half-baked innuendo at other members of doing so. this House. That is not the way to conduct oneself in this place. The honourable member knows better Mr. Lathlln: Mr. ActingChairpers on, that isthe way and ought not to act in the way he is today, but ifhe the ministeroperates, and I am afraid I guess that would like to correctthe record or put something on is how we have to let the process carry through. the record to which I can respond, I welcome him to Perhaps I can ask the minister then: When was do that. the last time the minister met with the Assembly of Now he wants a breakdown of the budget. How Manitoba Chiefs to try to get these working groups does the honourable member propose for me to that he has been talking about get going on thework break down a budget in the Estimates process or in that he says he is trying to do? Also, how many 4255 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

groups are there? Who is going to be sitting in the for people or are we going to spend money working groups from the governmentside? studying? Mr. McCrae: We have made repeated requests, We have spent $3 million and three years both verbally and in writing. I can make available studying. We have the basisof a lot ofwork that we the catalogue of written requestsof the chiefs and can do on behalf of aboriginal people to improve theothers to join us at thetable . I do not have my conditionsin the justicesystem for aboriginal people dates. I can certainlyfill them infor the honourable so that they can take partnership and in some cases member. ownership of the justice system. But why do we At the most recent formal meeting we had with need to stall for another year after three years? Phil Fontaine and the Premier (Mr. Rlmon) and Why do we needto spend another$250,000, just so some of the members of our Native Affairs we can talk for another year andstudy and research Committeeof Cabinet, it was all agreed, yes, we are some more? going to allow aboriginal people-or aboriginal The people of this province thinkthat this matter people are going totake theirplace on theworking has been studied to death already. So what does it groups as co-chairs. So therewould not bejust one take to get thechiefs to join us at the table and talk chair on the government side, but there would be about the substance, not about whether we are twochairs of each committeeor subcommittee,and going to have a separate system-or is what the one of those would be aboriginal people. honourable member is proposing a separate Then there was an issue discussed that money system, or is it really what I am proposing that is a would be required to secure the participation of separate system? How long are we goingto debate aboriginal leadership on thesecomm ittees, and we this,and how many more hundreds of thousands, if are in the process of responding to that request or not millions of dollars of taxpayers' money are we demand or whatever it was. going to spend playing politics,indulging in rhetoric? (Madam Chairperson in theChair) When are we going to get downto business? I ask this ofthe honourable member for The Pas. When Then also, after the meeting was over, and are we going to get down to business and do unbeknownst to myseH, it was announced that something for the people we all represent and anothercondition for the participation of aboriginal improve conditions that are bad and need to be representatives was that the issue of separate much better? systems was back on the table. That was not so, but thatwas said nonetheless. So I would ask, repeatedly, the honourable member, to use his good office and to use his see So you what I am talking about, Madam influence to try to persuade the aboriginal Chairperson. When we do not really talk to each leadership to get on to this project and join with us. So other, we really do have a problem do we not? Yes, we cannot devise quickly or fund quickly, a what I am sayingis, why can we not justsay what it separate aboriginal justice system, but we can fund is that we want to say. I have said, on behaH of the and devise the beginnings of systems of justice that government, and so have my colleagues, that we will serve aboriginal people far better in a way that want aboriginal participation, and the response is, respectstheir culture. Thesethings can all happen we want $250,000to talk to you. Well, I am sorry, in steps, same as seH-government, generally, can that is not on. That is notthe way it is going to work. happen. We want it to happen in steps. If I had $250,000, would I not rather put that * (1630) money into a program for people? What do we need $250,000-we have the Aboriginal Justice I sometimes do not think the honourable member Inquiry Report, which was a $3-million project,and knows what he is talking about. He does not like thatdoes not count theremu neration of the judges. me. He has made that clear today. That is all right. We have a three-yearproject that tookinto account llike him, but he does not like me. Fair enough. We massive levels of consultationwith people. So what worked for a long time together on the task force. is the $250,000 to study the report for another year He never told me that before, but he has made it for? That was the request I got from the grandchief, pretty cleartoday the way he feels. It is unfortunate, anotheryear of study and $250,000, or maybeit was because there is a lot of work to do. Thehonourable a little more. Sorry. Are we going to do something member wants to play games, let him play, but let June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4256

him play with somebody else, because I am does not need a whole lot of extraresources to carry interested in doing something while I have thisjob. out the work that needs to be done with the aboriginal leadership. I believe what the aboriginal I am interested in proving the justice system. I leadership were asking for was some assistance in have proved and my departmentin working with me has proved that we knowhow to doit. We knowhow offsetting some of their expenses. Twenty-five to make changes that are better and an Indian bands are in remote areas. It costs a lot of improvement in the system. Why will you notgive money for people to travel from northern Manitoba us a chance to make changes that will make a real to Winnipeg for meetings and so on. Thatis why the difference for the people of that the honourable aboriginal leadership were asking for money. member for The Pas and the chiefs of this province I am still interested in findingout from themi nister. represent? Why do you not give us a chance When he set the money aside, what was he going instead of all of the kinds of questions and to use it for primarily? Did he not thinkthat he would comments I am getting today from the honourable have to fund some of the work, the expense that member? comes with the work in working with government? I am telling you, Madam Chairperson, I am really Because I know myself, as a chief for six years of very disappointed in the approach the honourable my band, it costs money to come to Winnipeg to member takes, because his approach just means meet with government, because ministers do not the status quo. If I were to play along with this for often go to where you want them to go. Itwould be much longer, it would mean the status quo until fine if the ministers that I used to deal with would somebody else comes along who is ready to come to The Pas, and then there would be no embrace everything the honourable member expense to me, but it costs money to come to suggests, but nobody is ready to do that. His Winnipeg. colleagues in his own party are not ready to embrace the stuff that he is puttingforw ard. What Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson, Chief does he think is suppose to happen next? Fontaine's office is just down the street, so he is not that far away. Yvon Dumont has met with me on The honourable member thinks that we are numerous occasions and never asked for money. if suppose to succumb, you like, and say, yes, we He and his federation, I believe, are funded in a core will accept everything that the honourable member kind of a sense by the government of Manitoba, as for The Pas says and that is what we will devise. is the Assembly of Chiefs. The urban native Money is, obviously, no object,and we can make it association, sorry, but I will never get that name in all happen next week and everybody will be happy. theright order, is locallybased and the Indigenous Well, welcome to the real world. This is Manitoba. Women's Collective is, I believe, locally based. It does not workthat way here. It doesnot work that way anywhere else that I know of. There is a start in giving the answer to the honourablemember. What is it that the honourable is trying to achieve? So, ifit comesto travel expenses, my mind is wide Is he trying to achieve positive change for the if aboriginal people ofManitoba? I do not knowwhich open there is someone who needs to be at a constituency he is speaking for sometimes, Madam meeting and absolutely cannot get there without Chairperson. assistance from the government. That is an open question, that is not a closed question. Thatis not Mr. Lathlln: Madam Chairperson, perhaps I can what the $250,000 was all about. Let us get talking ask the minister again-1 believe it was $1 about the same thing. million-whenit was set aside, what was that money going to be used for? I know the aboriginal You want to know what the $1 million is for, the leadership have asked the minister for financial money set aside in the budget. The honourable assistance for the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, member wants some particularities. Well, that is their justice committee, to operate andso on. I think fair, except he has not done his part yet in why they were asking for that money for the persuading his aboriginal colleagues to assist us in committee, for the chiefs, was, because as the arriving at some solutions. But I will tell you, we minister knows-he has got his department, I mean have learned from Phil Fontaine, and we have the infrastructureis there, the budget is there, so he learned from others. 4257 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

St. Theresa Point Indian government project is The honourable member, does he really want to acceptable to the chiefs; Phil Fontaine told me that stand in the wayof that kind of stuff? Well, I am not himself. That program will be funded out of that going to let him anyway. Sothere you have it. I am appropriation. That is thekind ofthing that will work. very upset. I am very upset with what is happening That program, I know the honourable member at the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council probation knowsabout it, is a highly successful program to services, funded 50-50 by this government and the provide culturally appropriate local services to federal government up till now. young aboriginal offenders in the aboriginal The federal government has decided it wants to community of St. Theresa Point. That is the kind of withdraw its participation. I mean, that is a heck of projectwe want to fund,and we want to see happen. a timeto be doing it. Here we are going to Ottawa We want to see it expand, and I would like to see, nextweek to talkabout self-government somemore in thefuture, other aboriginal communitiestaking up and the federal government's pulling away from a similar model. funding for the DOTC probation program. It makes For argument's sake, I will say it is a separate you wonder, well, what did they really mean? What system. It is run by aboriginal people in the is the federal government really about? community for the people in the community. So • (1640) what are we really arguing about here? The St. Theresa Point Indian Youth Court is a separate The honourable member may not know it, but I justicesystem for those young offenders who come met with representatives of the DOTC about the before it. future of their probation service, another tremendously successful probation service. The Their success rate is quite phenomenal really. Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for They have been operating for a number of years. Correctionsis here andcan correctme if I am wrong, The Law Foundationof Manitoba has been funding but they have a better success rate than the The them. Law Foundationis broke, as honourable Manitoba government probation services,ar guably. members well know, or nearly broke, and theywere Fair enough? unable to fund them anymore. The governmentof Manitoba has stepped into the breach, if you like, I have looked at some numbers and the rate of and said, hang in there for a little longer while we repeat that I saw, repeat offence or repeatexposure get all the arrangements put together, but there is to the service,is higher in theManitoba system than going to be supportfrom the Manitoba government in the DOTC system. What I am saying right now, I for the continuedoperation of that program andeven am just looking at Mr. Demers and I am going to the expansion ofthat program. have to say it is subjectto correction,but at least he and his branch agree that the DOTC probation We want desperately to get the federal service is a good one-worth preserving. So why government involved. We are working with them are the feds pulling away? Well, we are trying to find and we are hopeful that they are going to get that out. We have written to the federal Solicitor involved. We are first in, of course, in terms of General. We have worked with the DOTC announcing our support, but that is nothing new. probation people. We are closerto St. Theresa Point than Ottawa is and that is maybe understandable. As a matter of fact, on Tuesday morning of this week I telephoned Joe Clark, a gentleman with St. Theresa Pointis a very finemodel. A number whom I have been doing some work lately, asking of aboriginal communities might very well look at him to talk to his colleague Doug Lewis about this that modelfor themselvesand for their communities and telling him, this is not theright thing to be doing. and for theirpeople. I do not have the numbers with This is a good program. It has been funded for a me, again. I am not very good with statistics, numberof years by both governments, 50-50. Our unfortunately, but hardly any young offenders from funding, unfortunately, is contingent on the federal that region have been referred to the mainstream funding, because ifthe federal funding is not there, provincial court system. Hardly any, a handful, I there is really not much of a program leftto fund. So think, over the last number of years. A perfect I wantto see that program keep going. It is serving example of aboriginal justice, self-government many people, serving many reserve communities. working for people. That is good. It is better service, according to the June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4258

people being served, because they are being but just in case, if something comes up, I will set served by their own agency. That is aside a million dollars. Surely he must know what self-government. he was going to use that money for, and again I ask him, what were his plans? Well, the honourable member is going to go to The Pas, he is going to go wherever he can and say, Also, he speaks a lot about the St. Theresa Point McCrae, he is not in favour of self-government project, about how, he says, I do not knowanything because he does not support separate systems. about it and so forth. You know, it is too bad that Well, what do you call that system up at St. Theresa the St. Theresa Point had to come into Winnipeg, Point? If the honourable member knows anything cap in hand, and beg this government to fund that about it at all, and I suspect he does,he knows that project. h took a press conference. It took a lotof it is a separate system of delivering justice services lobbying on the part of the people from St. Theresa to aboriginal people in their own culture and in their Point. The minister when he speaks makes it sound own community. Does the honourable member as if he was solely responsible for making this want to speak against the St. Theresa Point happen, Madam Chairperson. No, it did not happen system? It has been going for years. It has been that way. I met with the people from St. Theresa going well. For the amount of funding it has Point, and I was there when they had their press received it has been going very well. conference. If it had not been for that, I wonder if Why does the honourable member not get on the minister or this government would have done board? This Is more than just being a New anything afterwards. Democrat. It is your job to be opposedto things that If that is the way the minister wants to operate in you should be opposed to, but why do you want to terms of the justice system or the legal system , I be opposed to progress in the area of aboriginal guess now we are going to have to have every justice? That is what you are doing. Thatis the way individual band come into Winnipeg, cap in hand, it is being interpreted. Well, I mean the honourable beg this government, lobby and so on, because it member can sit there and grin and make faces seems to me that that is the only way this sometimes from his seat in Question Period and government responds to requests that come in from make the odd offensive comment from his seat in those people. I know Swampy Cree Tribal Council reference to his interpretation of something I might has proposals in here, the Minister of Justice's have said. The honourable member is going to department, and we do not know where that is right learn that it doesnot cut that much ice, that kind of now, but I do know it is not moving. So, again, I ask way of doing business. the minister what was he going to use the money We have important people in this province to for, the $1 million he had set aside? serve, and we have very, very serious problems. Mr. McCrae: You will have to pardon me, Madam Here we are, some people anyway, prepared to say Chairperson, but I do not recall taking the credit for we will take nothing for our people ifwe cannot have the St. Theresa Point aboriginal Indian courtproject. it the way I say it. The fundamental problem with An Honourable Member: You should. that approach is it does not respect very much the democratic process in the rest of this country. We Mr. McCrae: My honourable colleague the Minister would like to see the honourable member show a of Housing (Mr. Ernst) says that I should. Well, more co-operative attitude, and, for goodnesssake , maybe I can take credit for helping the thing carry do not come out of a long process of intense on, but I do not recall taking creditforthe St. Theresa discussions and negotiations on a task force, sign Point Indian court system, because that would be the document and then say, oh well, this fellow he the wrong thing to do. You know who deservesthe gave us a lot of difficulty. I mean, really, as I said credit for that? The people of St. Theresa Point earlier, give me a break. deservethe credit for it. Mr. Lathlln: Madam Chairperson, I still cannot It makes you wonder why The Pas band never got understand why the minister refuses t�l have been into such a good idea. Now why? Maybe the to other Estimates where ministers are asked honourable member can tell us that. Those people questions and they give answers andso forth. I just in St. Theresa Point without a nickel of government cannot imagine the minister sitting there saying, we funding started this thing up on their own. Time will set aside a million dollars, for what I do not know, came, they approached the foundation, but they 4259 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

were going, theywere doing. Now they just want to honourable member, what good does it do for a carry on, and that is okay because they are doing young aboriginal family facing trouble with the law? theright thing for the people in their communities. The positionthe honourable member is taking, what

• (1650) good does it do for a young aboriginal single mom and her children? What good does the honourable What did the honourable member do for The Pas? member's position do them? What progressare we Did he look then, in those days, at the St. Theresa making with the position being taken by the Point system? He was chief at thattime, I believe. · honourable member? What system did he put in place in The Pas without any help from anybodyelse? Time came, Theresa I keep trying, Madam Chairperson, but I am afraid Point andthe Law Foundationgot together. I do not I am not gettingthro ugh. know how. I do not know who approached whom. Mr. Edwards: We have had a very illustrative The Law Foundation was then there, and now the example in the last close to an hour of exactly why government is there. It is not my project. The im pie mentationof this reportshould not be leftto the project belongs to the people of St. Theresa Point. members of this Chamber alone. Is that not what the honourable memberis arguing for? Make up your mind. Ultimately, the decisions haveto come here for ratification, the expenditure funds and the The honourable memberwants toknow what we enactmentof legislation, but we have had a pretty are going to spend the money on. Look in this good example of why the strategy for action document. How many times have you read it? I embodied in the reportmade eminent sense, and I have read it twice. Look in this document. It is welcomed andcongratulated the commissionerson called An Aboriginal Justice Inquiry Report, making that a partof their report. prepared by Associate Chief Justice A. C. Hamilton and Associate Chief Judge C.M. Sinclair. This thing They did notjust tell us what to do, they advised is chock-full of ideas, beginningsof ideas and other on how to do it, and they entitled it, A Strategy for kinds of ideas thatwill help us throughmany, many Action, and on page 755 of their reportthey started initiatives. Some will be exactly like the judges that with the recommendation for an aboriginal suggested; some are not going to be accepted; justicecomm ission. some will borrow from ideas of the judges. That is The recommendation was that it be established reasonable, and ifyou say it is not I am goingto take by legislation and by appropriate processes with a my marbles and go home, then we will just have to board of directors made up of equal numbers of do it without you. But I hope we do not have to do aboriginal and government representatives and an it like that. independent chairperson, and that it should be Even if we do it without you, the honourable given thenecessary staff and resources. member has already told us, that through his colleague the member for Point Douglas (Mr. They also said the position of aboriginal justice Hickes), every single recommendation is okay with commissioner shouldbe established as the CEO of and him. So, therefore, if the chiefs will not join us, we the commission, the tasks, and this is the will have to go it alone. Too bad if we have to do it important part, would include monitoring and that way. assisting government implementation of the recommendations of thisinquiry. This sort of noncommunication that swirls around all of these words that are being spoken is quite It was an action plan, and this was the lead disturbing in a political sense, but it is a tragedy if recommendation under the Strategy for Action. you happen to be an aboriginal person living in a The commissioners recognized that it would be reserve community or elsewhere, and your life is controversial. They recognized that there would be deeply and tragically affected by a social, political difficulties and that there was a communication and economical system which leaves you out or problem. Theyalso recognized that political parties behind. The justice system that comes along just and political biases would further impede putting makes the whole thing worse for you. into place their recommendations, and so they What good does the honourable member's handed us an opportunity to do something about position do? The position being taken by the that. June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4260

The minister chose not to accept that and The main pointtoday, I think, is to find a way to get embarked on another path of implementation. I together with the aboriginalcommunity and work out want to ask him in the brief time we have left, what a process of implementation. was wrong, in his view, with the strategy for action It is wrong to think that we should be able to and, in particular, that recommendation of the implement it without cost. That is wrong to think commissioners? that. We spent $3 million, thatis true. It is a lotof Mr. McCrae: Madam Chairperson,it is notso much money. It would be asquandering of thatmoney if a question of right or wrong, and I know the we were not to be preparedto spend what it costs honourable member probably did not mean to frame to implement it. That would truly be a waste. the question in that kind of a way, although it is his Now the minister says, workable and practical. question. I do not see anything so wrong with that The minister says he wants a workable and practical proposal as I see right or better or more workable implementation process and he says he has found and more practical than the approach that we are a betterway through the working groups, whatever taking. he has set up. Well, workable is easy, because itis I can see in that recommendationthe likelihood of not working. It is not working. His plan is not an extremely expensive bureaucracy that would working. That is clear. pnte�ection] have to go along with such a commission. Well, the people at St. Theresa Point had their Remember we got to that point, and then we spent program, as he pointed out, long before this maybe another million dollars and still not one iota commission, long before this commission. What I of change has happened for the aboriginal person am talking about, and I want him to address, is the out there. action plan for implementation of the It has been a while since I read that, all of the recommendations in this reportwhich are extensive. accompanyingmaterial that goes with that particular His response has beenpath etic. After amonth of recommendation, but there is a sensealso, and the having the report, he had a press conference to say, honourable member in raising the questionis not far I have nothing to say. That is what he said a month off from some other proposals put forward by after he had had the report. members ofhis party, to take away from government or remove from government, should I say, the Today, he says his implementation process is responsibility and the right to make decisions. practical and workable. Well, it certainly is not practical because it is not working. It just is not We honestly felt and stillckH continue to hold out working. What is wrong with what they hope here-that we can work together. We found recommended? that in other areas of common interest, aboriginal people in this government have been able to work What is really wrong is he thinks it might costa together. So we felt and continue to feel that few dollars. That is really what is wrong; that is what approach can work again in the future. he said. He said it would be too expensive to put into place a commission to implement. The approach that we are proposing, the working group proposal, does, I believe, lend itself to a Well, let me suggest to him that he spent $3 practical working solution to many of the problems million comingup with recommendations, and now there are and the practical implementation of many he is not willing to spend a dime to put it into place. of the recommendations that we are accepting. That is a wasting of the $3 million, if he doesnot act Perhaps it is because the aboriginal leadership on it. That is really where he is going. think we should have accepted this He is using the fact that his system is not working recommendation that we stilldo not see them at the to do nothing. There is an opportunity here to go to table. If that is the case, I suggest that is not our them and to say to the member for The Pas (Mr. fault. They have been invited to the table. We want Lathlin)and the aboriginal community, you say you them at the table. acceptall the recommendations; I am followingone; Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperson, there is no I am putting into place the aboriginal commission. particular need for us to go through each of the Put them to the test. Ask them for their recommendations, because we could do that. I nominations to that commission. What is wrong think we could agree and disagree on much of them. with that recommendation? He has nottold us yet, 4261 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

exceptthat hedoes not want to spend a dime to put Blll18- The Franchise s Act it intoplace, Madam Chairperson. Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Madam Chairperson,that is the poorestfinancial honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), decision he could make, because it not only Bill 18 (The Franchises Act; Loi sur les squanders the social and the human potential of concessions), standing in the name of the puttingthese recom mendations into place, but heis honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. going to squander the three years and $3 million McAlpine). worthof work thatit took to come up with them. That is what he is going to do if he does not act quickly An Honourable Member: Stand. to put . into place a truly workable implementation Mr.Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed) procedure. Thank you. Bill25- The Univers ity of Manitoba Am endm ent Act Madam Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 5 p.m. and timefor private members' hour, Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the committee rise. honourable member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), Bill ,_ Call in theSpeake r. 25 (The University of Manitoba Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur I'Universite du Manitoba), * (1700) standing in thename of thehonourable memberfor Niakwa (Mr. Reimer). IN SE SSION An HonourableMember: Stand. Mr. Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., time for Mr.Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed) Private Members' Business. B111 27-The Bus iness Practices Committee Report Am endment Act

Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Committees) : The Committee of Supply has honourable member for TheMaples (Mr. Cheema), adoptedcertain resolutions, directsme to reportthe Bill27 (The Business PracticesAmendment Act; Loi same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, modifiant Ia Loi sur les pratiques commerciales), seconded by the honourable member for La standing in the name of the honourable memberfor Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the St. Norbert(Mr. Laurendeau). committee be received. An HonourableMember: Stand. Motionpresented. Mr.Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed)

PRIVATE MEMBE RS' BU SINESS Bill 31-The Municipal Am endm ent Act

DE BATE ON SE COND Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the REA DING8-PUBU C BILLS honourable member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry), Bill 31 (The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les municipalites), standing in the name of Blll16- The Health Care DirectivesAct the honourable memberfor Niakwa (Mr. Reimer). An Honourable Member: Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Stand. honourablemember for TheMaples (Mr. Cheema), Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed) Bill 16 (The Health Care Directives Act; Loi sur les directives en matiere de soins de sante),st anding Bill 32-The Imm igration Consultants in the name of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Registry Act Orchard). Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the An Honourable Member: Stand. honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), Mr.Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed) Bill 32 (The Immigration Consultants Registry Act; June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 4262

Loi sur !'inscription des conseillers en immigration), the country in these past weeks and are going to standing in the nameof the honourable memberfor continue to occur on our constitutional future have St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau). a lot to do with universal health care in this country. An Honourable Member: Stand. I think it is a mistake to restrictthe debate to the more notable issues which tend to get thegreater amount Mr.Speake r: Is there leave? [Agreed) of press coverage.

Bill36- The Health Care Records Act The distinct society in Quebec, the Charter issues, those are vital issues, but recall, ifyou will, Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Mr. Speaker, the debate which circled around the honourabl.e member for St. Johns (Ms. issue of standards in the social servicesthroughout Wasylycia-Leis), Bill 36 (The Health Care Records this country. That was-and I had the privilege of Act; Loi sur les dossiers medicaux), standing in the being on the task force on a number of their name of the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr. hearings-an extremely important issue to Reimer). Manitobans. They came forward time and time An Honourable Member: Stand. again to talk about the need for a strong central Mr.Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed) government, the needfor strong nationalstandards in health care and the need for, above all else, our Bill 50-The Beverage Container Act ability to maintain a universal, accessible health care system as fundamental to their notion of what Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the it was to be Canadian. honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. It was not just a sense of fairness that led themto Carstairs), Bill 50 (The Beverage Container Act; Loi that conclusion. It reflected, I think, a deeper sense sur les contenants de boisson), standing in the of pride in theprinciples of universal health care as name of the honourable member for Gimli (Mr. notably Canadian and something that they wanted Helwer). to leave as a legacy to their grandchildren and say An Honourable Member: Stand. that we protected this, this was our firstpriority. This Mr.Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed) is not the United States where in excessof 30 million people live in the fear of getting ill, or in the fear of Bill 51-The Health Services Insurance having an accidentthat they will not be able to afford Amendment Act health care costs. It is an interesting statisticto note that the United Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the States per capita has higher spending on health honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema), care than any nation in the world, and still in excess Bill 51 (The Health ServicesInsurance Amendment of 30 million people do nothave access toit. Larger Act; Lol modifiant Ia Loi sur l'assurance-maladie), than the entire population of this country in the standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst). United States does not have access to health care without the fear of having to pay and not being able An Honourable Member: Stand. to pay for adequate health care. All of the Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed) technology, all of the high-tech things, and, of Mr. Paul Edwards {St. James): It is a pleasure to course , we appreciate the research and rise to speak on this bill put forward by the member development which isdone in the United Statesand for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). I do not intend to we benefrt from it, I am the first to acknowledge that, give lengthy comments, but I did want to stand in but the fact is, all of that is for naught for something support of this proposal to put into law the five in excess 1 0 percent of the population of that essential principles of our universal health care country. system. I think it is a particularly important time for Frankly, I believe that wherever we go in health this House to address this issue and to pass this care in Canada we go together or we do not go. legislation with all due haste. That is the principle I startfrom, that is enshrined in Mr. Speaker, the reason for that is that I believe this bill, Mr. Speaker. It is not only a tradition in this that the discussions which are occurring throughout country, but it should be a road map for the future. 4263 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

These principles are set out in the Canada Health principles, comprehensiveness, universality, Act. They should be enshrined in legislation here. portability, accessibility and public administration, in We need to send a message today before they provincial legislation. meet again in these rounds of constitutional lquote from the B.C. Royal Commission: To date debates. We need to send a messagetoday, and I no Canadian province has confirmed the five ask all members to consider the importance of principles of medicare by enacting them in addressing this issue today in this Chamber and legislation. Every province ha.s taken steps to sending a message to the leaders of this country, discourage or prevent extra billing and has removed that we believe fervently in the enshrinement of the hospital user fees, but none has gone further. We five essential principles of universal health care in believe that it is importantthat the B.C. government this country, andthat is not to be forgotte n in any of take the first step and make these principles an these debates. All ofthe other issues are important, integral partof B.C. law. but this, too, ranks as an issue, first and foremost, for our leaders to have on their minds as they talk It would certainly, Madam Deputy Speaker, be about EPF funding, they talk about the role of the acceptable, be fitting for all of us here in this federal government and the relationship between Chamber who have worked so long and hard to federal and provincial governments. This is a key preservethe fundamental principles of medicare to issue and we should pass this legislation today. move quickly and to ensure that happened promptly in this province of Manitoba and served as a (Mrs. Louise Daoquay, Deputy Speaker, in the reference point for other provincialju risdictionsright Chair) across this country. Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Madam Madam Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to see that, Deputy Speaker, I toowould like to join in this debate in fact, the Liberal caucus has brought forward this on Bill 51 and to indicate quite clearly for the record legislation, because there have been doubts about that the New Democratic Party has no difficulty Liberal position on medicare and the principles supporting this bill. I have stated that publicly, I underlying that fine nationally treasuredprogr am. I have stated that in Estimates, and I am pleased to hope that the introductionof this billis an indication reiterate that position for the debate in this to all of us that the Liberal Party here in Manitoba It Assembly. would come asno surprise, I am sure, has done some rethinking on this matter and has to members in this House to know that the New re-evaluated its previous positions and determined Democratic Party and our caucus clearly supports that it is in the best interest of all Manitobans to be any attempt, legislatively, programmatically, governed by thefive principles ofmedicare. politically, to preserve medicare and the principles, the underlying fundamental principles behind Madam Deputy Speaker, our concerns with medicare. respect to the Liberal Party in Manitoba, of course, come out of previous election commitment to • (1710) suggest that perhaps some form of a charge in There is no questionthat any entrenchment ofthe hospitals might notbe all that bad. Thesuggestions five founding original fundamental principles of were made in the 1988 election. We raised our medicare in any aspect of provincial or federal law questions and concerns at that time. Manitobans would serve us well. There is no question that in spoke their mind at that time, and I believe that, this period in our history, attempts to entrench perhaps, as a result of that exposition of the issue principles and to demonstrate political and in the media and in the public, the Liberals, perhaps, government obligationto upholding those principles in Manitoba, have had a change of heart and is more important than ever. decided that it would be best to come down firmly on the side of the fundamental principles of Madam Deputy Speaker, thisidea ofentre nching medicare. the fundamental principles of medicare in provincial law interestingly enough was outlined in the British Madam Deputy Speaker, that is one concernwith Columbia Royal Commission on health care and respect to the Liberal Party. Even more cost released not too long ago. That report clearly fundamentally-[interjection]The memberfor Inkster stated that it would dono harm and it would certainly (Mr. Lamoureux) doth protest a little too much, I serve considerable purpose to entrench the think. I have only mentioned the announcement of June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4264

this party in the 1988 election to charge for meals surgery, and now we hear hip surgery and knee and slippers and soap and other amenities. surgery. I think it is important for everyone in this House to realize that the entrenchment of these I did not mention, butI will, thefact that the present principles in provincial law will require some Liberal critic for Health, along with a former member reconsideration, some new thinking on the partof of the Liberal caucus, held after 1988, a press everyone in this House, particularly the government conference clearly coming down on the side of a means test for our home care program. of the day. The bigger issue is, of course, the question of We expressed absolute outrage and concern at whether or not there will even be a medicare system that suggestion, and we had hoped that, in fact, this to worry about and whether or not it will make any bill before us today indicated a change of heart. I difference to have these principles entrenched in am getting a little worried by virtue of the calls and Manitoba, in provincial law, if there is no national cries and heckling from the Liberal member for health care system that is universal and portable Inkster. and accessibleand comprehensive and run on the Madam Deputy Speaker, I am more concerned basis of public nonprofit administration. though, aboutthe role of Liberal governments on the Madam Deputy Speaker, I have tried on national scene today. I am more concerned about numerous occasions in this House to find ways to the apparent movement towards the introductionof work with members of the government, to try to form user fees, towards methods of deterrency, towards some sort of united coalition around the issue of means test, towards privatization. Those concerns preservation of medicare. have been fueled in particular by Liberal Premier Frank McKenna, who clearly stated quite recently It is regrettable that that kind of effort has not that the concept of user fees should not be ruled out, succeeded and that in fact the present that it may have to be implemented, thatit might be administration has shown little commitment to the fundamental to addressing the economic plight of preservation of a national health care system provincial governments and provinces. founded on these very principles as outlined in Bill 51 . So we have every reason to be concerned and are hopeful that this bill today, presented by the Let us for the record, once again, state the reality Liberals of Manitoba, reflects a change of heart, or that even now members of the Conservative at least that it will have some impact on Liberal government of Manitoba have recognized and members in opposition or in government right documented. Let us not forget that beginning-!can across this country. go as far back the Liberals prior to 1984,but let me deal specifically with Mulroney policy beginning in Because, in fact, we have a much bigger battle to 1984-this, after an election promise, an election fight. We have a much more worrisome issue at promise to preserve medicare and thefundamental hand than the specific entrenchment of the principles as documented in this legistion. principles of medicare into provincial law. This is a fine move. It will do something. It will give us all the Let us remember Bill C-69, Bill C-20 and other means to keep our governments, in particular the legislative and regulatory moves to change the government of the day, in check when it comes to formula for funding of health care and the delivery of health care. post-secondary education under EPF, the Established Program Financing Act. We have expressed many concernsin this House about a movement away from the medicare * (1720) principles by the Conservatives of Manitoba. We Let us all remind ourselves that if nothing else have expressed concern about the erosion of changes, if no other legislative amendments are universal quality health care here in Manitoba. We made, funding for health care, funding for provincial have expressed opposition to attempts to deinsure health care systems will dry up, will end, will come services,to de list drugs, to cause longer and longer to a complete halt. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is waiting lists which have resulted in a great climate coming faster than we think. for private entrepreneurs in the health care field. By everyone's documentation and statistical We are veryworried about the rapid rise in private analysis now, even the Conservatives', money will surgical procedures here in Manitoba for cataract run out for Manitoba shortly after the turn of the 4265 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

century. Madam Deputy Speaker, without the which was-CCF government which originally dollars, without the financialcontr ibution, the federal introducedthe form of medicare in Saskatchewan, government loses its leverage to uphold the who first brought it in. It has been New Democrat principles, these very principles before us, governments since that have fought for universal entrenched and enshrined in the Canada Health medical care for Canadians. It is one of the things Act. they talk about their country as has been voted as Already we know what is happening: that the finest country in the world to live in. In spite of provinces like-headed up by Frank McKenna are the efforts of the federal Conserv'atives. looking at user fees. Other provinces are looking One of the principle reasons why they stated that at-{interjection]Madam Deputy Speaker, I thinkthe this country is one of the best countries to live in is member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) should just our medicare system, which is again, like I said, in settle down and put correct information on the spite of Conservative governments. One can only record. imagine how high we would rank if New Democrats Many provinces have looked, and I think of were to be elected federally here in this country. So Alberta and British Columbia before the present that would be very interesting to see, and we will NDP government, have promoted the idea of have to wait and see, of course, as the federal disentanglement. That will only lead to a patchwork election approaches and we may have the of health care systems right across this country, opportunityto form government. I will be anxious to where user fees and premiums and deterrency see how the members opposite vote, if they will be measures are considered appropriate. It is the voting for their federal Tory counterparts. Americanization of the system. It is the opposite So often I have attended functions where there direction to go in. It is wrong. It is contrary to the were federal ministers there or a federal member basis behind medicare and the fundamental from Selkirk, and he is at complete odds with the principles, andthat is the recognitionthat access to provincial Conservative Party, completely different. quality health care is an inalienable right and I have gone to a thing where Felix Holtmann was something which all of us should defend, no matter there, and he was yelling out, do not blame me, what it takes. blame Gary Almon, blame Harry Enns, do not Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. blame me. We are in the same Chamber where we have the members opposite, do not blame me, Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Deputy blame Brian Mulroney. Speaker, I look forwardto the debate this afternoon and the opportunityto put a few words on the record So it would be kindof interesting to see when they today on this very important bill, Bill 51, a bill again go into the next election, when they go into that little introducedby the Health criticfor the Liberal Party, booth and all the names are on the ballot, whose a bill that we support, and we hope that the names they are going to mark. It will be interesting government will bring to a votehere this afternoon. to see if they are going to support Dorothy Dobbie or Bjornson- The No. 1 concern to me and my constituents, I know that all of us, as we have gone out and An Honourable Member: Alcock. knockedon doors-1have done this several times in Mr. Dewar: Well, maybe they will be supporting my constituency, up and down the various streets of Reg. It will be kind of fun to see. [inte�ection] Who my constituency-it is always a No. 1 issue. We knows, they may be supporting the Reform Party have within Selkirk the Selkirk Mental Health here. I imagine a number of them may supportthe Centre, and we have got the Selkirk General Reform Party, and that again is interesting political Hospital and several nursing homes. So it is very beliefs there. What exactly is the Reform Party important to us in Selkirk and in rural Manitoba. position on medicare-! am sure many of the Again, what the member for St. Johns (Ms. members opposite know those positions quite well Wasylycia-Leis) was mentioning, that this bill asks since they probably-the Leader of the Opposition that the five basic principles of the Canada Health (Mr. Doer) states that many of them probably have Act be entrenched in law, it is very importantfor us, a dual membership in both of those political parties. for New Democrats, obviously enough considering I would not be surprised if they know Preston the fact that it was the New Democrat government Manning's home phone number there. June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4266

I am kind of amused at some of the members in In '89 the federal Conservatives introduced Bill the House, Tory government members introduce C-33, again which was an attempt to reduce bills and they will speak in French, which is fine, but transfers. I do not know if Preston Manning knows that they In 1990 Wilson, the federal Minister of Finance, are doing this here. It is kind of a concern of mine. again reduced EPF funding to the provinces, and The member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) often will Bill C-69 froze funding at 1989 levels. demonstrate his bilingual nature. In this last year, Wilson again, the Minister of An Honourable Member: Do you have something Finance, announced the extension of the freeze of against bilingualism now? EPF funding for a further three years. Mr. Dewar: No, I have nothing against it, but So it is interesting-{inte�ection) Where were our obviously one of your political heroes, Preston federal Tory members of Parliament then? Where Manning, does. So you had better be careful that were our provincial Tories? Where was David he does not hear you using our second language. Bjornson and Felix Holtmann and Dorothy Dobbie? He may rip up your card in the Reform Party. You I know you guys are going to have a hard time never know. pnterjection] That is true. supporting them in the next federal election, and I do not have that difficulty. I certainly will not be So what exactly is the Reform Party'sposition on worried about that. such things as medicare? It is interesting. Well, the five-1 do have a quote here somewhere, but I do not * (1 730) know if anybody is interested in hearing it. In fact, the federal Tories praised medicare, It is ironic, of course, to us on this side of the Mulroney called it a sacred trust. He called it a House, even though we do support the member on sacred trust, I believe, and when he was running for this particular bill, that it was brought in by a Liberal office and he was trying to outdo Wilson at the time member, considering some of the policies of the of who was more compassionate, who actually federal Liberals. I believe it was in 1976 cared more about social programs in this country, who cared more about the continuation of amendments to the Medical Care Act, passed by the medicare-oh,it is a sacred trust; we will not touch Liberal government, imposed limitations on the this. As soon as they got into power, the firstthing amount of federal contributions to medical care they did was deindex seniors pensions which is costs. something, of course, that this government-they In 1977 they established EPF programs, know a lot about deindexing, because they legislation passed with the support of the deindexed the 55 Plus in the past budget, an issue Conservatives, and this legislation introducedblock that the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) has funding. It ended the practice of 50-50 financing by raised several times, an issue that affected seniors the federal government for medical care. in this province. So they know a lot about-obviously,they learnedtheir lesson well. In 1982 the Liberal government eliminated the revenue guarantee component of the EPF They praise-the PCs will praise medicare, a financing, thus cutting $5 billion from money which sacred trust, best country in the world because we would have gone for health care over the next five have these medical services here. Yet when they years. had a chance to go down on Bill C-20, who went? Did the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard)go down to In 1984 Parliament passed the Canada Health Ottawa to protest Bill C-20? Did any of the Act, which I am going to read some quotes from members opposite? The Minister responsible for immediately here, containing provisions to deal with Seniors (Mr. Ducharme), did he go down to Ottawa the problems of user fees and extra billing for to protest Bill C-20 which will effectively eliminate medical services. federal funding to the provinces? It has been In 1986 the federal Conservativegover nment this estimated to last 10 to 15 years, which will basically time passed Bill 96 reducing the rate of increase in mean the end of medicare in this country. EPF fundings. It is estimated that this will cost Did anyone go? Who went? The Minister of health and post-secondary education $2 billion Health? No. Did anyone from the Liberal Party go annually by 1992. down to Ottawa? No. The only memberfrom this 4267 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

Chamber who went was the member for St. Johns expensive bills for those who already often have (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis), our Healthcritic, the only one unemployment rates in the north of this province up who cares in this whole province,cared enough to to 25 percent. go down there. She was the only one who cared enough to go down there to bring forwarda position So we can see again that if this government were opposing Bill C-20. The Minister of Health did not to stand up a bit more against their federal even go down there. counterparts,maybe some of these issues would be resolved instead of having to pass this legislation Why did he not go? It is a terrible indictment of here. We recognize-! see my light is flashing, so this government's philosophy towards medicare with those few comments I would like to conclude when they do not even bother going down there. my remarks this afternoon. They do not even make the effortto go down there to stand up for medicare by opposing or at least Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Madam Deputy making an effort to oppose Bill C-20. Maybe they Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise and speak in support had a chance to talk to some of their federal cabinet of Bill 51 , The Health Services Insurance ministers, give them the advice. Apparently, there Amendment Act. What is this bill and what is the is again-who knows?-rumours that Jake Epp is in purport of it? What is its intention? Its intention is favour of user fees. This is again a quote I had, I to put into The Health Services Act the five principles believe from the Ottawa Citizen, where he was that are now in the federal legislation, namely quoted as saying that he is not exactly opposed to comprehensiveness, universality, portability, user fees. pnte�ection] Oh, definitely it would play accessibilityand public administration. well in Steinbach. I will not go into them and define them or expand There is a myth when the PCs ran in Central Nova on them with one exception, and that is public in 1983, well, that was of course when our current administration. These days we frequently hear Prime Minister was running foroffi ce, I believe. The comparisons, especially by our Conservative quotegoes: As the Progressive Conservative Party colleagues across the way, about the differences believes thatwe can reverse the ominous trends of between the American economic system and the past decades and secure once again the future Canadian economic system and free trade. Quite Canada deserves, our party is committed to oftenwe hear the jargon offree trade about the level preservingand protectingthe principles of medicare playing field. One of the items that comes up most and to maintain important social programs that are frequently is that taxes are too high in Canada. In critical to the well-being ofCanadians. fact, we hear this every day from the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), and we know that all of his This is a quote from Conservative campaign colleagues agree with him. literature in 1983-maintain important social programs, protecting the principles of medicare. If you look at differences between Canada and the What are we seeing? Members opposite have United States, it is fairly obvious that our taxes mentioned it, have said it many, many times to us, include payment for medicare and the Americans' that the federal government is abandoning their do not. However, there is a shift going on in the policies, abandoning medicare by their policies. United States. There is a major change in They have admitted that in very unequal terms by philosophy going on in the United States, and it is the referencesthat they have made here, they have not coming just from people, and it is not coming often criticized, you know, we are bringing in this; from health care professionals, it is not coming we are bringing in that. We have to in response to elected representatives; but it is coming from the cutbacks from the federal government, cutbacks corporations. It is coming from a surprising area of that will continue. the American people, and the reason is that corporations are paying health care benefits or We see this in the budget brought in by our paying for health insurance plans on behalf of their provincial Health minister here, where he charged employees as part of employee benefit packages. $50 user fees for northern patients for transportation It is very, very expensive for them. south of the Northfor elective surgery. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has raised the issue There was an excellent program on The Journal where someof his constituents have had to use this that I hope some other people saw about the move service three or four times, racking up quite to a publicly administered medicare system in the June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4268

United States, and it pointed out that employers like In fact, it is very interesting to live in rural General Motors and the other Big Three auto Saskatchewan and to hear some of these stories makers are paying $6 an hour per employee to first-hand, as I did when I worked for four summers purchase private medical insurance. in Saskatchewan, and lived in Saskatchewan for So, of course, the corporationsnow want to move four years. Of course, these stories are told over to publicly funded medicare because it would take and over again during election campaigns, because the burden off the corporations. Now, hopefully, in Saskatchewan it tends to be black and white as corporations would be paying taxes to support a a result of the great battle over medicare in 1961 . It publicly supported medicare program. We do not tends to be the good guys and the bad guys. Of know that, but we could assume or hope that would course, the bad guys are lumped together, both the be true. It would also mean the taxpayers would Liberals and Conservatives, because both of those have to pick up part of the cost of a parties opposed the introduction of medicare in public-administered plan. Saskatchewan in 1961 . To get back to my original point, it is that it is not The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) feigns fair, I would say, to comparetaxation of individuals disbelief, but I can assure him that it is true. and corporations in the United States and taxation [interjection]As my colleague from Transcona says, in Canada, because in Canada we pay through our the public is notfooled. They have history that they tax system for an excellent medicare system, and have to either defend or deny or acknowledge and the costs are actually lower, a lower percentage of admit that it was true. our gross national product to support medicare in Now the Liberal Party in Manitoba seems to have Canada. changed their mind and have introduced this bill • (1740) which we support. We are pleased that they support the principles of medicare. In fact, the There are numerous reasons for that. One member pointsout that they introducedit nationally, reason is that in the United States there are which is true. I will acknowledge that. hundreds of private insurance companies providing medical coverage to individuals, whereas in Canada One of the stories that I was going to tell about we have government running a system. It is much Saskatchewan has to do with the kind of charity that cheaper to have one administration than to have people had to beg for in order to get medical care. hundreds of administrations paying health care If people could not affordto pay for visitsto a hospital benefits to individuals. or a doctor, then they had to depend on the charity of the doctor or the charity of the hospital or the So those are my comments on the public charity of the rural municipality in order to get administration part of the five principles. medical care. In fact, I know of a doctor who, when We in the NDP have long been supporters of a he retired, he burned $30,000 worthof unpaid bills. publicly administered health care system, He shovelledthem into his coal furnace. He wrote commonly knownas medicare. In fact, it goes back them all off as bad debts. In fact, I would suggest before 1961 when Tommy Douglas and his that he forgave and forgot, which was probably the government in Saskatchewan brought in medicare. best thingthat he could possibly do because he was In fact, in rural municipalities in rural Saskatchewan realistic, he knew that he was not going to get paid. as early as the 1 930s there were health care districts An Honourable Member: He was a humanitarian. or hospital districts whereby a rural municipality or a number of rural municipalities went together and Mr. Martindale: As my colleague said, he was a provided hospital care to their residents. That was humanitarian, and a humanitarian is generally really the forerunner of medicare as it was brought considered to be a good type of person to be. But in in Saskatchewan in 1961 . the problem is that no one should have to depend There were good reasons for that. We know that on the charity of a doctor or the charity of a hospital the Great Depression, commonly known as the Dirty or the charity of a municipality in order to receive Thirties in Saskatchewan, hit their residents much medical care, as many, many people were forced to do. harder than many other places in Canada. People were destitute. People were unable to provide for Of course, during election campaigns in themselves and to pay for doctors. Saskatchewan-and I must say, they are great fun. 4269 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

I was in Saskatchewan during the provincialelection Conservative government. This began with the last fall, and it was very enjoyable to be helping them Liberal governments, beginning in 1976 when out with their great cause. I was not just a visitor, I amendments to the Medical Care Act were passed was there to work, and it was great fun working for by the Liberal government, imposing limitations on a winning candidate in the riding of Indian the amount of federal contributionsto medical care Head-Wolseley. In fact, it was a wonderful party. costs. They could notremember the last time they had won So this slippery slope that we �re on of declining in Indian Head-Wolseley, so theywere ecstatic, to of federal transfer payments to provinces did not say the least. begin recently, did not begin with the Conservatives. During election campaigns, at political rallies, It began way back here with the Liberals, this slowly especially NDP political rallies, people tell stories declining and now quickly declining transfer of about the introduction of medicare and what it was payments from the federal government to provincial like living in Saskatchewan before medicare and governments for medicare costs. after medicare. People remember and people tell In 1977 established programs financing true stories about things that happened· to their legislation passed with the support of the parents or their grandparents about going to the Conservatives. This legislation introduced block hospital and being refusedtreatment because they funding and ended the practice of 50-50 financing could not pay-or going to see a doctor and being by the federal government for medical care. Who refused treatment because they could not afford to was the government in Ottawa in 1977? It was a pay. Liberal government in Ottawa in 1977. As we know, that does not happen anymore. In In 1982 the Liberal government eliminates the fact, one of the ironies of the Saskatchewan revenue guarantee component of the established situation is that even though the vast majority of programs financing, thus cutting $5 billion from doctorsfought very hard against the implementation money which would have gone for health and of medicare, now doctors are better off than ever post-secondary education over the nextfive years. before as a result of medicare because now they Who was in government in 1982 in Ottawa? It was always get paid; whereas in the pastwhen thebilled a liberal government in Ottawa in 1982. patients, frequently they did not get paid if patients In 1984 Parliament passes the Canada Health could not afford to pay the fees. Now doctors Act, containing provisions to deal with the problems always get paid. of user fees and extra billing for medical services. It is something like Autopac in Manitoba. One of In fact, the Liberalgove rnment did something good the things I do almostevery day is I have coffee at in 1984 by passing this legislation. I was part of a the North Y, and I have coffee with a bunch of campaign in the community to save medicare, and businessmen, in fact, I would say, right-wing it was the result of coalitions in Manitoba and all businessmen. It is always very interesting to talk to across Canada that the Canada Health Act them. Two of them are Autopac agents and they amendments were passed. sometimes talk about the great fight in Manitoba In 1986 theConservative gove rnmentpasses Bill against Autopac, but privately they will admit that C-96, reducing the rate of increase in established theyhave never been betteroff since Autopac came programs financing. It is estimated this will cost in because they always get paid, the same as health and post-secondary education $2 billion doctors. They fought against medicare; medicare annually by 1992. came in; their income went up because they always got paid. pnte�ection] In 1989 the Conservatives introduced Bill C-33 which attempted to further reduce the transfers to What about Ross Thatcher? Well, I think he was the GNP, minus 3 percent with the caveat that it in for one term and then he got kicked out. could not fall below the consumer price index. We have some serious concerns about the Unfortunately, costs in the affected areas tend to rise more quickly than the GNP. This bill did not erosion of medicare. We are concerned because It was replaced in 1990 by Bill C-69. there has been a decline in funding from the federal pass. government, and this is not a recent decline. This My colleague from Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) asked did not begin in 1984 with the election of a me, what would the NDP do? I can assure the June 4, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4270

member that if we were the federal government, we We on this side are opposed to user fees because would protect medicare at all costs because what it means is that poor people do not access medicare has always been important to this party medicare. and we would not do anything to erode medicare. Point of Order In 1990 Finance Minister Wilson went for further EPF cuts. The Tories, through Bill C-69, have Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): On a point frozen funding at 1989 levels until the end of 1992. of order, I would like to have the lettertabled that the In 1991 , Wilson announces the extension of EPF honourable member was reading from . freeze for a further three years. Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable A survey of provincial and territorial government member for St. Norbert does not have a point of budgets reveals that most provinces, the most order. notable exception being Ontario, have responded *** by reducing insured services, increasing premiums, drastically reducing staff and closing beds. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Deputy Provincial governments lay the blame directly at the Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise to add my feet of the federal Tory government. comments to this important bill, Bill 51 , The Health Madam Deputy Speaker, there are a number of Services Insurance Amendment Act. As the myths about medicare. For example, Michael previous speakers for our party have indicated, we Wilson, in his budget papers of 1991, said: I are supportive of this particular piece of legislation recognize that limiting the growth of transfers under and its intent on what it tries to do for the people of established programs financing raises concerns Manitoba. We think that this is a piece of legislation about the ability of the federal government to that we can support, and that is why the previous continue enforcing national medicare principles speakers from my party have indicated our strong under the Canada Health Act. Legislation will be support for this particularpiece of legislation sothat introduced to ensure that the federal government we can entrench in our legislationin the province the continues to have the means to enforce these intent, the administrative principles of this national medicare principles. The principles of the legislation. Canada Health Act will not be compromised. It indicates that there are five administrative That is the myth. In reality, the Canadian Medical principles that are shown in this particular piece of Association president, Dr. Lionel Lavoie, accused legislation and itshows-and I will indicate the five the government of financially strangling medicare basic principles that we think are very important to because of the way Ottawa had systematically medicare in this province and in this country. They reduced the plan level of federal support five times are the public administration, the comprehen­ since 1982. siveness of the plan, the universality of medicare, the portabilityand the accessibility- I have one more quote that I want to use, because I think it is a good one. It has to do with the Manitoba Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Conservative Party and their federal minister the Point of Order Honourable Jake Epp, the Minister of Energy. He wants his cabinet colleagues to consider introducing Mr. Laurendeau: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would user fees to the health care system, quote: On the ask that the honourable member table the letter and basis that it reduces costs, what we are saying is it he passes it on to the member for Selkirk (Mr. is valid and should be considered. It would mean Dewar) and he has it rushed out of the House. That less of a drain on the system. is uncalled for and unreasonable when the member for Selkirk can hustle a piece of paper out that that • (1 750) member does not want me to read. I am horrified, Epp's position was supported by the provincial horrified, thatthat member, a reverend, would sneak wing of the federal Conservative Partywhich wants a piece of paper out of this House. a fee to discourage abuse of the system. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. 1 [interjection] previously ruled on the point of order and, in my You will have to take my word for it. opinion, I did not witness the member reading from 4271 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 4, 1992

that specific piece of paper, and I ruled that there of my family are, for their medicare premium was no point of order. coverage in that state. They wrote back andthey *** indicated that my cousin and her husband, the husband pays $1 90 a month to cover the family unit Mr. Reid: I am somewhat shocked at the display of for basic coverage. Then, on top of that, the the honourable member opposite. I hoped that we husband's employer pays $21 0 a month to cover the could have seen some level of decorum in this husband. On top of that, my cousin's employer Chamber, and it is obvious that that member pays $200 a month to cover my cousin. The total oppositewas not intent on allowing that to take place altogether, there is a $600 a month premium for in the Chamberduring debate here today. medicare insurance that is paid by my family (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) members down in California. To continue my remarks, the previous speaker, So if the average family had to pay that, I think it the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), has would be beyond their ability to pay that type of indicated the fundamental differences between monthly premium, similar to what my fam ily has Canada and the U.S., the constantcomparisons we seen in the States in what they have explained to do about the levels of taxation in Canada versus the me. So that is why we believe very strongly in the levels of taxation in the United States. It is very concept of universality and accessibility, along with apparent from the differentdebates and the different the other administrative principles thatthis bill brings pieces of literature that we have seen that there are forward. significant differences in Canada how we support There are many things, Mr. Speaker, that we our medicare system to provide for the could talk aboutin debating this bill here today, but administrative principles that are outlined in this Bill I believe other members of the Chamber would also 51, including universality and accessibility. like to have the opportunity to add their comments Last year, Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to to the record as well. I know, Mr. Speaker, I will discuss the differences between Canada's level of hopefully have another opportunityat a later date to taxation, because I had members of my own family add further comments to this particular piece of that were here visiting from the United States, and legislation. they were somewhat taken aback by the levels of taxation on certain items that they purchased here Thank you, Mr. Speaker. in this country. Mr.Speaker: As previously agreed, thismatter will When I indicated to them the differencebetween remain standing in the name of the honourable Canada and the United States was that we support Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst). our medicare system to provide equal opportunities Six o'clock? Is it the will of the House to call it six for all Canadians, universal access to medicare in o'clock? It is agreed? Agreed. this country andthis province, and I asked members of my family to indicate to me. They wrote back to The hour being 6 p.m., this House now adjourns me and gave me an indication on what it costs an and stands adjourned till 1 0 a.m. tomorrow morning average family of four in California where members (Friday). Legislative Assemb ly of Manitob a

Thursday, June 4, 1992

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Oral Questions Mental Health Care System Reform Presenting Petitions Wasylycia-Leis; Orchard 4200 Heritage Federation Granting Authority Portof Churchill Lamoureux 41 98 Reid; Driedger 4201 Brandon General Hospital Funding Constitutional Proposal L. Evans 41 98 Carstairs; McCrae 4202 Aboriginal Justice Inquiry: Support Municipal Assessments for Recommendations Wowchuk; Derkach 4203 Lath lin 41 98 Domtar Site Cerilli; Cummings 4204 Reading and Rec eiving Petitions Human Rights Case Independent Children's AdvocateOffice Cheema; Downey 4205 Carstairs 41 98 Policing Services Dutch Elm Disease Funding Chomiak; McCrae 4206 Friesen 41 98 The Diviners Fight Back Against Child Abuse Campaign Render; Mitchelson 4206 Barrett 41 99 ReErccling Programs Aboriginal Justice Inquiry: Support dwards; Cummings 4207 for Recommendations Abitibi-Price - Pine Falls Lath lin 41 99 Edwards; Cummings 4207 Manitoba Blue Cross Tab ling of Report s Santos; Manness 4208 Estimates, Consumer and Corporate Affairs Mcintosh 41 99 Estimates, Civil Service Commission ORDERS OF TH E DAY Em�loyee Benefits raznik 4199 Committee of Supply Estimates, Environment Labour 4209 Cummings 4199 Justice 4237 Annual Re&orts: Manitoba rop Insurance Corporation; Private Members' Business Manitoba Pork est. Findlay 4200 Deb ate on Second Readings - Pub lic Bills Bill 51 , Health Services Insurance Amendment Act Introduc tion of Bills Edwards 4262 Bill 97, Winnipeg Bible College and Wasylycia-Leis 4263 Theological Seminary Incorporation Dewar 4265 Amendment Act Martindale 4267 Penner 4200 Reid 4270