Second Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Thursday, April 15, 2010 Morning Sitting Volume 14, Number 4

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Second Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General and Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Minister of Labour...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Official Opposition...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... –Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley...... Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North ...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca –Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Thursday, April 15, 2010 Morning Sitting

Page

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills...... 4347 Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act (continued) R. Austin D. Hayer R. Fleming Hon. G. Abbott

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 4363 Estimates: Ministry of Housing and Social Development (continued) S. Simpson Hon. R. Coleman K. Corrigan V. Huntington M. Sather C. Trevena H. Bains

4347

THURSDAY, APRIL 15, 2010 tax on automobiles over $50,000. It's not a new tax on luxury holidays to the Caribbean. It's a new tax on basic The House met at 10:02 a.m. items that everybody buys and cannot avoid buying. Whether you are of modest income or whether you have [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] a high income, you still have to go and get your hair cut. Whether you are of modest income or high income, it Prayers. may be nice to reduce your carbon footprint by going and buying a bicycle. Orders of the Day So there you have a regressive tax, because it is the same no matter what one's income level is, so you are Hon. M. de Jong: Good morning, Mr. Speaker. In forced to buy and pay for all kinds of things that weren't Committee A, I call Committee of Supply — for the here before in the PST regime. That's what makes this information of members, the ongoing estimates of the tax an inherently regressive tax. Ministry of Housing — and, in this chamber, continued But I'd like to take a few minutes and discuss specific- second reading debate on Bill 9. ally a very important industry that is being hammered by this tax. It's an industry that I spent close to 20 years Second Reading of Bills working in — namely, the restaurant and food service industry. Before I go into details, I'd like to just make a Bill 9 — CONSUMPTION TAX REBATE few comments about the restaurant and hotel industry AND TRANSITION ACT and the food service industry. (continued) It is a very large employer in this province. It is an industry where in many cases people find their first R. Austin: I'd like to continue where I left off yester- job — working in the restaurant industry. It's sort of day evening on the debate on Bill 9, the Consumption an entry-level-position job, where anybody out of high Tax Rebate and Transition Act. school, never mind those who go and get specific train- ing, can finally get some work experience. It's also an [C. Trevena in the chair.] industry where…. A large number of people who are going through post-secondary education, who are go- Yesterday I was going through some of the measures ing to college or going to university, help to pay their that the new HST will cover that weren't covered under way through school by having jobs in the restaurant the current PST regime that we have in place. Members industry. on the other side have tried to argue that this new HST It is a very useful tool to enable people to better their is going to be the lowest in the country and that it's lives, to go and get further education — the reason being, pretty much the same as the GST and the current PST, of course, that in the restaurant industry it's largely shift but that's factually wrong because there are so many new work. It's seven days a week; it's 365 days a year. It enables items that are covered under the new HST regime. itself to work around other people's schedules who want Let's carry on with the list: haircuts and other personal to work part-time. It's a critical industry to this province. care services; vitamins; dietary supplements; magazines; Yet they were never consulted about this tax. periodicals; bicycles, bike repairs and parts; wedding In fact, during last year's election they actually wrote planners; caterers; and as we saw yesterday in question letters to the government of the day — during the elec- period, funerals; repairs to home appliances; energy-ef- tion and prior to the election — asking specifically ficient home appliances; laundry and dry cleaning; car whether the B.C. Liberals were contemplating changing washes; basic residential telephone service; residential over to the HST regime. They were told in writing — not smoke and fire alarms; energy-saving building materi- just verbally, in writing — that this was not on the radar, als; automobile towing — just to name a few. and why? Well, I'm just going to read out a couple of ex- [1005] cerpts from this letter from the B.C. Liberals. What we have here is a new tax regime that is intrin- "It would extend the PST tax base to a broader range sically regressive. Why is that? Because all of a sudden of goods and services that are presently exempt from many basic items that people buy on an ongoing daily provincial sales tax. This is a major concern." Just a few basis will suddenly have this new tax that they didn't months ago, just a few short months ago, that was the have before. That's what makes this tax so regressive. position of the B.C. Liberals. The position that we are I was listening the other day to the banter back and arguing today was their position just a few months ago forth between the Minister of Tourism, who was saying when they were speaking to the restaurant industry. that this isn't a regressive tax, because those who earn I'll go on. "The B.C. Liberals are also mindful that more presumably spend more and, therefore, will pay a harmonized GST would reduce the provincial gov- more of it. But it is regressive, because this isn't a new ernment's ability to unilaterally adjust sales tax rates." 4348 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

Another important argument that they argued for and opposed to a pizza that's sold in a restaurant. It makes it that we are arguing for today — the inability of this much harder for them to compete. province to use its provincial jurisdiction under our So 59 percent are less likely to support a new meal constitution to ensure that we have some tools, some tax when told that there are 173,000 jobs in B.C. coffee measures in place to write our own tax policy. shops and restaurants at stake — 173,000 jobs in this Most tax policy comes directly from Ottawa and the industry alone. Here we have a new tax that's going to federal government. That's where we pay the bulk of wallop it right onto them and make it very difficult for our income taxes. That's where the GST goes. But the them to maintain staffing levels. PST enables individual provinces to craft a tax regime I'd also like to just mention that the restaurant indus- that helps our citizens and allows us in this chamber try is one that hoped to do better after the Olympics. to vote on things that encourage our citizens in British They saw the Olympics as an opportunity to market Columbia to do some of the things that we see fit and to this province and expected more people to come to this discourage things that we don't see fit. So let's take an province. But here we have a tax that is not only going to example — a good example. hurt the restaurant industry; it's going to hurt the tour- [1010] ism industry. My colleague sitting two seats to the right of me was Here we have this Olympic fiesta that the government very active in a campaign on bicycles and what the HST goes on about as being the great way to give oppor- would do to bicycles. It has been common knowledge tunities to new people to come to this province. The and common policy in this province under the Socreds, Olympics are just over a matter of weeks ago, and what under the B.C. Liberals, under the NDP to always ex- are prospective new visitors who are looking at thinking empt the purchase of bicycles. Why? Because we want of coming to British Columbia going to do? people to be engaged in a healthy activity, and we want Well, first of all, they've got to cope with a dollar that people to get out of their cars and go onto bicycles. We is now at par. It's not something that we control in this are now losing this ability to do things like that, and House, but it's a fact of life. When they look at coming that's just one measure. to British Columbia, they're going to go: "Okay, so the Let's look at another one. The government, just a dollar which only — what? — 18 months ago was at 70 couple of years ago when it brought in their carbon tax cents is now at par with the U.S. dollar." and their carbon initiative, said: "We want to encour- On top of that, come July 1, if this bill passes, we're age people to go and buy new items in their household going to see a new tax that's going to be added onto that use less energy." So they created a tax regime under everything that they buy when they come here, includ- the PST regime that stated: "If you go out and buy new ing restaurant meals. So how does this new tax help us washers and dryers that use less energy, less water, it's to encourage all the visitors to come here to take advan- good for the environment. It's good for all of us. We will tage of what was sold in the Olympics? give you a tax rebate." All in all, this new tax is going to devastate two of the What's going to happen under the HST? All gone. So largest industries in our province, and it's not a good it takes away our ability in this Legislature to make deci- thing. I just want to point out that within Canada the food sions that help our environment. service industry is a $60 billion industry. That's through But let's get back to the restaurant association. They Canada as a whole. But here in British Columbia it is a were, naturally, extremely unhappy when the govern- $10 billion industry in terms of its sales and represents 4 ment a few weeks after the election suddenly foisted the percent of the GDP of this province. That's a huge, huge HST upon the people here — double-crossed. So they amount to be affecting with this new tax. immediately started to do some research amongst their [1015] members. They have hundreds of thousands of individ- Now, we've heard that this is the single best thing. ual restaurant owners and those people who work in the I've listened to the Finance Minister getting up and try- industry, and they wanted to find out what it is that their ing his best, with conviction, to convince all of us that members thought of it. this is the single best thing that the Liberals have ever Well, 75 percent of respondents to their own research thought about to help our economy. That's their main poll said that they opposed it, of which 63 percent strongly argument. opposed it. And 64 percent of respondents want restau- Well, you know what? They've been here for almost rant meals exempted from this tax; 67 percent are less ten years. They're supposed to be the economic geniuses likely to support a new meal tax to be applied to restau- and managers. It took them ten years to come up with rants and coffee shops when told that the HST will raise this policy that is supposedly going to help British more money from consumers to give tax breaks to busi- Columbians — ten years — and they're supposed to nesses. That's the main reason why they don't want this. be the smart ones? I don't think so. In fact, the citizens It also causes a problem for those who are now com- of this province are just in disbelief at these kinds of peting with, say, a pizza bought in a grocery store as arguments. Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4349

It's really funny how the Finance Minister, who has standing up not just for those who voted for us in the been in this House for in excess of three terms and sat election. I can tell you that the meetings that were held.… next to the previous Finance Minister — who, by the And there's been lots of talk in this House about the in- way, condemned this tax and said that it would never be itiative that's taking place, the citizen initiative, led by brought in under her watch…. So here we see the flip- the former Premier of this province. But you know flop happening within the B.C. Liberal Party. what? At those meetings that were held in my commun- That begs the question: if they think this is the best ities, in Terrace and Kitimat, it was interesting to see the and smartest thing they could do for the economy, how people who came out. come they didn't bring it in earlier? That goes to the very First of all, people came out who normally never get heart of why we are having this debate. We're having this involved in any kind of public policy debate or involved debate because there was an election close to a year ago, in politics. It was drawing people who basically stay at and the state of the finances of this province was in free home. Maybe they vote every now and again, but it drew fall. The government decided, made a conscious pol- out a whole bunch of people who don't normally get in- itical decision, to deny the full truth of this province's volved in a political debate. That's the first point. It also finances to the people of British Columbia. brought out people right across the political spectrum. After the election — when they did not have any of [1020] these debates back and forth during the election cam- When I stand up and speak against the HST in this paign on whether it would be a good thing to harmonize House, I'm not speaking up just for those people who the sales tax or not, when they avoided all of that — they voted NDP in the last election. I'm speaking up for all then found themselves, after they got re-elected on this the old Socreds who live in Skeena. I'm speaking out for deception, suddenly with a big, big problem. During many of those who voted B.C. Liberal in the last elec- that election, they had also made commitments, right tion, thinking that their government and the people out of the mouth of the Premier of the province, that the they voted for were being forthright with them. They're deficit for this province would not be one penny more upset, and it's those people who are coming out to these than $495 million: "Not a penny more. You can take that meetings. to the bank." That's what he said time and time again. Hon. Speaker, over 90 people signed up to be vol- But, of course, I think he knew, and I think most unteers in my home community of Terrace. Over 40 British Columbians have come to the conclusion that people signed up 60 kilometres away in the commun- the B.C. government knew full well the state of the prov- ity of Kitimat, which has been devastated and is going ince's finances. They have an excellent public service in through all kinds of economic challenges. These are this province — very smart people who work diligently people who have never been involved in any kind of on all of our behalf every day. political campaign, saying: "Enough is enough." These Part of the job in the Finance department and the are people who aren't just listening to the debate in this treasury is to let the government know what's happen- House. These are people who are thinking for them- ing with the finances of British Columbia, if not on a selves and coming to their own conclusions. daily basis, certainly on a weekly basis. So they would The government says that there's lots of misinforma- have told this government what was going on. They tion out there. They should know. They're the ones who made a conscious decision not to share those facts with didn't tell the people of British Columbia the truth in the the people of British Columbia. first place, so it's kind of rich for them to be suggesting After they got re-elected, they suddenly realized: "Oh that there's lots of misinformation out there. What hap- my goodness, our half-a-billion-dollar deficit is now go- pened during the election? ing to be in excess of $3 billion." What do they do with These are people who are coming out — senior cit- this problem? They decide to go crawling to Ottawa to izens, young people, first time getting active in any kind get a $1.6 billion bulk of money to help them to reduce of political campaign, people from all walks of life — the deficit, which they had not been forthright about who are saying: "I'm going to give up a few hours of my with the people of British Columbia. life to go and sit in a mall or sit at a table in Overwaitea Even with the HST coming in and the $1.6 billion com- in Kitimat or go door to door to try and get my neigh- ing from the federal government, we still had a budget bours to understand what's going on." deficit over five times greater than the one that was prom- They understand that this is a regressive tax. They ised to all British Columbians during the election. understand that those of us who live in Skeena don't The member yesterday who was speaking had the gall have a lot of high-paid industrial jobs anymore. It's to call this the honest sales tax. I tell you, Orwellian- mostly people working in service industries who live in speak if there is nothing else. It's just beyond belief that my region. They understand that this is a huge tax shift they could say that. that is going to hurt them. It's for those reasons that all of us on this side of the I've heard the Minister of Forests saying that this is House are standing up on the side of British Columbians, going to help the forest industry. You know what, hon. 4350 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

Speaker? If it is going to help the forest industry, it's a lit- R. Austin: Like they did during the softwood lumber. tle bit late for the people of Skeena. All of our mills have The member says that they'll invest in British Columbia. been shut down, some of them actually stripped apart Well, that's not what we've seen in recent memory. and sent to other parts of the province or other parts of It's not enough to say that we're going to shift this tax. the world. Do they honestly think that the forestry mills What are the conditions? Are corporations that get this in Skeena are going to get going again because of this $1.9 billion in any way being forced by government to new HST? I don't think so. All these facilities have been make investment decisions that will create jobs here in shut down. British Columbia? No, of course not. They're just being told: "Hey, here's $1.9 billion. You guys get to keep it. Hon. K. Krueger: Under your watch. Don't worry. The consumers of British Columbia will pay it for the next who knows how long." Okay. Thank R. Austin: Under your watch. you very much. All these industries have been shut down. There is They could take that money just as easily and simply not one manufacturing plant left in my riding as a result pass it on to shareholders. In fact…. of what has happened under this government's forest policy. It isn't enough to suggest that suddenly this is Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Member. going to help us. [1025] Let's just look for a second at what happened when the softwood lumber agreement was passed. The gov- D. Hayer: As you have heard from the last member ernment argues that if we give big industry a tax break for Skeena, you can see there are two sides of the issue, and move the tax over to consumers, all of a sudden the opposition side and the government side. At the end these industries are going to reinvest and create jobs. of the day, the voters will decide which is the right deci- Well, let's look at the softwood lumber tax. sion to make for the long term — the one that keeps the During that argument between the province of B.C. economy strong, keeps the jobs here, or one that takes and Canada with the United States, millions of dollars of away the economy down the hill and gets the jobs mov- taxes were collected at the border by the American gov- ing to Ontario or other parts. ernment. Okay? Millions of dollars — taxes that were Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing paid based on the backs of communities, corporations me the opportunity to speak today in support of Bill 9, and workers. the Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act. What happened when the softwood lumber agreement What makes this bill so important to the future of was finally resolved? I'll tell you, hon. Speaker. Did the British Columbia, to its growth and to its economy, is companies take that money and suddenly say: "Hey, let's that it removes the provincial sales tax right across go reopen all the mills in Skeena"? No. They took that the board. That means an improved business economy, money and bought mills in the southern United States. more jobs and, by definition, lower prices passed on to consumers because the cost of doing business in British Interjections. Columbia will be lowered. This bill also means British Columbia will remain Deputy Speaker: One moment. competitive with other provinces. Jobs and investment Minister. Thank you. will not be moving to Ontario or anywhere else. The new tax system will mean that businesses can compete with R. Austin: They took that money and invested it in any business, any jurisdiction across the nation. There mills outside of British Columbia, outside of Quebec. will be a level playing field with other jurisdictions as we Money that was paid for by British Columbians was seek export markets, as we expand our export markets spent to invest outside of the borders. Why? Because and keep our current export market. they could make a better return on investment down Under the current PST system, a piece of wood, for there. example, is taxed at the tree-cutting level, at the haul- So it's not enough for this government to say that if ing level, at the mill level, at the manufacturing level, at we do this tax shift, all of a sudden the corporations are the wholesale, at the retail and, eventually, at the point going to take this wonderful free-fall money, $1.9 billion of purchase for the finished product. Bill 9 eliminates a year, and suddenly create a whole bunch of jobs. They those extra tax steps and imposes a tax only at the point will do what is in the best interests of their sharehold- of sale, which means the final product should cost less. ers. It may well be that they'll simply pocket that money In other words, this bill and the subsequent introduc- and send it down line to their shareholders as dividends. tion of the HST will actually save people money in the That may be the case. long term. Speaking of wood and the forest industry, I think Interjection. everybody knows that British Columbia's forest indus- Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4351

try has been a driver of our economy for decades. But B.C. Trucking Association, B.C. Road Builders, New Car it is suffering right now, Madam Speaker. Currently, the Dealers, B.C. Construction Association, the Conference pine beetle epidemic has enormous consequences — Board of Canada and many, many more of our promin- also the world economy — for the industry. For forestry ent employer groups and associations. to return to the dominant place in its industry, for it to In my own city of Surrey many members of the Surrey return tax dollars to the government, for it to return to Board of Trade are on board with the implementation the way it used to be, because it was bringing positive tax of the HST. flows to government, and to provide secure, long-term, In fact, here are a few of those Surrey business people well-paying jobs to its workers, it needs to be competi- and companies that support what this government is tive to survive. doing and support the HST: Steels Industrial Products As the Minister of Forests so clearly stated during the Limited, Kevin McKelvie of PricewaterhouseCoopers, contribution to this debate: Archie Johnston of KPMG, Fuller Metric Parts, Annette "We should all clearly understand that HST value-added tax Conner, Prospera Credit Union, ABC Metals, Affinity is the right model for economic stimulus and for ensuring that Manufacturing, Cobra Electric, Patton and Cooke, we have the best possible opportunities for our export-based industries…. Sunrise Kitchens, Nor-Van Cable and Marine Supplies, "The forest industry is what built this province, and it's been Eric Wilson of BDO Dunwoody, Teal Cedar Products, very challenging in the past few years in terms of trying to make Teal-Jones Group and so on. sure that we have the most competitive industry around the world. In other words, despite what the opposition would Although the members opposite don't like to face the realities of portray, this bill, this change to our taxation system is the global downturn and particularly the U.S. housing market, if they would just take the time to look at British Columbia, they a good thing, supported by almost every major employ- would know that we are a top…performer. This new element, this ment group. They know that eliminating a tax across change is a real game-changer for our people. the board lowers the cost of manufacturing and the cost "It makes sure that all our operations have the advantage, the of doing business. They also know that it will stimulate opportunity to export their lumber around the world — to make sure they can compete with Norway, make sure they can compete growth, encourage investment and, over time, create with Chile, make sure they can compete with Argentina, with all thousands of new jobs. the forest jurisdictions around the world." Jobs mean security for individuals and for families Madam Speaker, I have mills in my riding. I can tell and opportunities for new immigrants. Jobs mean a you they support the HST system, because they said great future, a chance to grow in a place where anybody that it's going to be good for them for the export market can raise a family and create a lifestyle that is among the and allowing them to hire more people and create more best in the world — a part of those facts, unlike what the high-paying jobs. In fact, the HST will eliminate an esti- opposition is trying to portray. Their fearmongering is mated $2 billion in PST currently hidden or embedded misleading and scaring people. in our products and service costs, and those savings When I talk to people, mostly explain to them, they will be passed on to the consumers as they have done might not be happy with HST, but they like it. They in other places. think it will be good for our economy in the long term, British Columbia will also benefit from the lowest rate and they support it. They don't like any taxes, but on the of 12 percent HST in the country. To be fair, almost no other hand, they said this is probably the right thing to one likes paying taxes, but they are necessary to provide do, especially since Ontario implemented the HST. the social safety net that all of us hold so precious. Taxes Under the HST there will be no additional costs to build hospitals, pay for public safety, educate our chil- heat your home, whether the supply be gas, oil, electri- dren, construct our highways and transit system, care for city or any other means; no additional costs for drug our elderly, and support our children and families who prescriptions; and no additional costs for fuel used in otherwise would be unable to provide for themselves. your car or truck. Home and apartment rents are not [1030] subject to HST. In fact, anyone who is not currently pay- Taxes come from workers, and taxes come from busi- ing GST on something won't be paying HST either. ness, which is reflected in the price of items we purchase. The truth is that the majority of our retail items will If we can eliminate some of the cost of doing business, see no change at all. Everything that we now buy that is as Bill 9 sets out to do, business will flourish, jobs will be levied with the PST and GST will have the same amount secure, more people will be finding work as more jobs of tax cost under the HST system, so there will be no will be created, and it will help British Columbia. It will increase at all for those items. In British Columbia, as I help all of our constituents. stated earlier, there will be specific exemptions for fuel Elimination of the PST and adoption of the HST for cars, trucks, trains, planes, boats and other forms of has found great support with most employers across personal travel. the spectrum of employment, from B.C. Agriculture, Residential electricity and home heating products B.C. Business Council, B.C. Chamber of Commerce, are exempt from HST, as are residential rents — exempt Chartered Accountants of B.C., Retail Council of B.C., from HST. Basic groceries are exempt from HST. Up to 4352 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

a $525,000 price of a new home is exempt. Used homes be spent in our economy or can be used for people and are exempt. Prescription drugs are exempt. Health care, their families to provide extra for themselves or go on a medical and dental services are exempt. Bridge, road vacation or whatever they like. and ferry tolls are exempt. Child care, music lessons and We have also cut costs for such things as Fair Pharma- legal aid services are exempt, and most goods and ser- Care for 300,000 families. A senior couple earning vices provided by charities are exempt from the HST. $35,000 a year in income has seen their MSP premiums For more details on the HST, you can also go to my fall by more than $200 per year. website, davehayermla.ca, or davehayermla.com, which Let's face it. Our province and our economy will has very detailed information and links that provide be better with this Bill 9 because it ensures long-term you with more detailed information on the HST and its economic stability and competitiveness with other juris- effect. dictions, encourages new investment and provides the We won't be paying more for car or home insurance groundwork for business expansion, which everyone either. On top of all that, under the new taxation system, knows means that more new jobs will be created. That's people at the lower-income level, those earning $20,000 good for all British Columbians. or less a year, will each receive a $230 HST credit, which Almost all respected, independent, reputable lead- will more than offset the potential extra costs they may ing economists in B.C. and in Canada, and some of the or may not face with the HST. left-leaning economists, are supporting the HST system [1035] over the PST system. There's a long list of independ- In fact, Madam Speaker, when you look across the ent economists saying the HST system will be good for board at costs that most families in lower-income British Columbia. brackets face — cable, hydro, restaurant visits, haircuts, In fact, one of the leading economists, Dr. Jack Mintz phone and Internet — they will actually see, after the from the University of Calgary, clearly states: HST tax credit they receive, a drop in their annual cost "Harmonization of the British Columbia sales tax with the fed- by approximately $486. Those are real savings that can eral goods and services tax, GST, will result in a giant leap in the province's competitiveness, both domestically and internation- be applied to other necessities, saved or spent on small ally. luxuries. "By 2020 the combined effect of federal and provincial corpor- Will there be some additional costs for those on a ate tax cuts and sales tax harmonization is expected to increase moderate income? Perhaps, but it will be very minor. the province's capital stock by more than $14.4 billion and add According to documentation I have seen, any increase in 141,000 new jobs. Sales tax harmonization alone will account for an increase of $11.5 billion in capital investment and a net cost for that group of earners is in the range of approxi- increase of 113,000 new jobs by the end of the coming decade. mately $13 a month, while those who can most afford it "British Columbia's tax reform, especially its adoption of the — people with higher incomes and higher expenditures , also will reduce the marginal effective — might see their costs rise by less than $70 a month. tax rate" — in other words, called METR — "on capital for all Remember that across the province and across the industrial sectors and all sizes of businesses. Even though selected exemptions were provided to relieve some capital goods from the earning spectrum, this government has lowered per- existing retail sales tax, sales tax harmonization will remove most sonal income taxes by more than 37 percent. We have taxes on capital purchases after July 1, 2010. eliminated the personal income taxes for 325,000 British "Sales tax harmonization will reduce the marginal effective tax Columbians who have low incomes. They now pay zero rate on capital for large- and medium-sized companies from 29.5 percent in 2009 to 21.6 percent in 2010, while additional corpor- provincial income tax because of the changes our gov- ate tax reductions will further reduce the marginal effective tax ernment has made since 2001. rate to 20.5 percent in 2010 and to 17.9 percent by 2018. We have reduced the small business corporate income [1040] tax rate by 44 percent and reduced the general corpor- "For small business the marginal effective tax rate will decline ate income tax rate by 39 percent, effective next year. sharply from 24.7 percent in 2009 to 11.5 percent in 2010, pri- These tax reductions will increase our competitiveness, marily due to the sales tax harmonization. With the reduction of the small business tax rate to zero in 2012, the marginal effective encourage investments, create new jobs and keep our tax rate on small business investment will decline further to 9.9 economy strong. percent. On the personal scale, with the tax reductions we "By 2018 British Columbia's marginal effective tax rate on cap- began to initiate when our government was first elected ital will be internationally competitive, lower than the current rates in Australia, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, in 2001, a person earning $30,000 a year now saves the United Kingdom and the United States; about the same as in almost $1,000 in income-tax costs. A worker earn- New Zealand; and only slightly above that of the Netherlands and ing $60,000 now saves almost $2,500 a year. A worker China. It will also be lower than most of the other provinces." earning $100,000 now saves more than $5,600 a year. A Those statements from Dr. Mintz clearly define the ad- worker earning $150,000 a year now saves more than vantages to eliminating PST, the provincial sales tax, $8,000 a year. and adopting the HST. Dr. Mintz is highly recognized Those dollars have been put back into the pockets of throughout North America and around the world for his our taxpayers. Those are dollars that can be saved, can authoritative paper on the economy. He did not arrive at Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4353

this position of support for HST lightly, nor did he do it businesses will continue to invest here. It will create without a vast amount of understanding and expertise. more and more jobs that will be sustainable for our fam- I would also like to read into the record this from Dr. ilies, and it will create more money for our taxpayers Mintz: and our constituents. It will sustain our economy and "By harmonizing the 7 percent provincial sales tax with the 5 continue to build our province. percent federal GST — except for some differences, as explained Dr. Mintz also said this about enhancing the invest- below — British Columbia will receive $1.9 billion in provincial sales tax from business intermediate and capital goods services. ment climate in British Columbia: "As with the GST, the resulting 12 percent HST will not apply "One way to measure the impact of taxes on investment deci- to certain products and services, such as qualifying foods, med- sions is to look at marginal effective tax rate on capital. In decid- ical supplies and exports. Also, point-of-sale rebates of the HST, ing how much capital investment to undertake, a business will similar to PST exemptions, will be provided for books, motor fuels, choose to invest in project in which after-tax rate of return on children's clothing and some other items. Rebates will also be pro- capital is high enough to attract financing from international vided for new housing and to municipalities, schools, universities, markets. When maximizing the value of their shareholders' colleges, hospitals, charities and non-profit organizations. equity, businesses will invest in capital until the marginal return "British Columbians will receive additional tax relief through on it is equal to its cost. the HST low-income tax credit, an increase to $11,000 in the "The marginal investment decision, therefore, is a project that basic personal amount tax credit under the personal income tax earns an after-tax rate of return on capital that is just equal to the and a rebate of HST paid on residential energy costs. cost of raising capital from financial markets…. Thus, any reduc- "Similar to the Ontario HST scheme, the British Columbia tion in the marginal effective tax rate…on capital will make more HST will have restrictions on certain input tax credits for specific projects attractive for business investments…. inputs during the transition period. For example, for large busi- "For international competitiveness, most of the focus is on nesses, those with sales in excess of $10 million, and financial medium-sized and large companies that raise capital from inter- institutions…the restrictions will apply for five years and then national markets, but the analysis also considers the impact of be phased out over the following three years, although the gov- British Columbia's sales tax harmonization on small, Canadian, ernment has indicated that full input tax credit will be phased in privately owned companies that are eligible for small business more quickly if the fiscal situation permits. treatment — basically, companies with an asset size less than $15 "Most PST on the capital goods will be relieved with the intro- million." duction of the HST on July 1, 2010. The existing PST on machin- What Dr. Mintz also said is that because of Bill 9 ery will decline from the existing current rate of 3.7 percent to 0.4 eliminating the PST and because of subsequent intro- percent and will be removed entirely by 2018, while the current duction of the HST in B.C., the investment climate in 3.3 percent PST on structures will be eliminated. "A significant one-time benefit to the province will be $1.6 bil- British Columbia will be enhanced, and our province's lion in federal transition payments, which help fund public ser- competitiveness will be significantly greater than other vices such as health care and education" — for the government jurisdictions. — "of about $400 for each British Columbian resident. On competitiveness, Dr. Mintz states that: "Initially, the sales tax reform will mean some reduction in rev- "The adoption of theH ST, along with the federal and provincial enues for the provincial government, since increases in sales taxes corporate tax rate reductions, will have a dramatic effect on Brit- paid on services sold directly to consumers will be slightly more ish Columbia's competitiveness…. Indeed, by 2018 British Col- than offset by restrictions in the sales tax on business inputs and umbia's marginal effective tax rate on capital will be lower than the other HST rebates and tax reductions outlined above. that of all provinces except Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova "Since the taxes on business inputs are shifted onto consumers, Scotia and New Brunswick, the three Atlantic provinces that the removal of the embedded PST will mean that some products, have already harmonized their sales taxes with the federal tax such as automobiles and computers, actually will be taxed less and are eliminating their capital taxes applying to non-financial under the HST. At the same time, some previously untaxed ser- investment. vices, such as haircuts, will be taxed more. "Notably, British Columbia's marginal effective tax rate on cap- "The key reform, however, is that sales taxes on capital goods will ital will be lower than Alberta's by 2018, even though Alberta has be shifted to other products and services, which will strengthen no sales tax or capital tax and similar corporate income tax rates the British Columbian investment climate, thereby raising capital to that of British Columbia. investment and creating jobs. In addition to sales tax harmon- "A major reason is that forestry and manufacturing industries ization, which will reduce taxes on capital, the British Columbia receive preferential treatment with respect to capital cost deduc- government plans to introduce further tax reductions which will tions under the corporate income tax than do other industries. make the province more tax-competitive. Forestry and manufacturing is a larger share of capital investment [1045] in British Columbia when compared to Alberta. "As part of a package related to the adoption of its carbon tax, "While one cannot presume that other provinces and countries British Columbia's corporate income tax rate was reduced to 10.5 will not alter their corporate sales tax over the next ten years…at percent, effective January 1, 2010. The rate will be reduced further the current rates British Columbia will be more than competitive to 10 percent, effective January 1, 2011. not only in Canada but…internationally." "In addition, the federal corporate income tax rate, which was Dr. Mintz states: 19 percent in 2009, will decline to 15 percent by 2012, although the federal government will be phasing out certain tax prefer- "Without a doubt, British Columbia's sales tax harmonization ences as it reduces the tax rate during this time. These reductions will be a game changer, promoting capital investment in the prov- in corporate income tax will further enhance British Columbia's ince and providing an opportunity for the private sector to create investment climate." jobs and pay higher wages to their workers. "The reduction in taxes on business capital inputs ultimately will Enhancing British Columbia's investment climate is the benefit employees as businesses invest in capital and new tech- key to our future. It means that businesses will continue nologies. Businesses, in any event, do not pay taxes, but pass the to stay here, businesses will continue to locate here, and tax burden to consumers through higher prices — thus reducing 4354 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

the purchasing power of household income — and to investors keep the jobs we currently have. It is good for the pros- and employees. perity of British Columbia families and everybody else "In a small open economy such as British Columbia's" — says Dr. Mintz — "investors do not pay taxes on capital investment, who has chosen British Columbia to be their home. Bill since owners of the capital can choose to invest in jurisdictions 9 states that if everything is done, it's going to be good with a higher net-of-corporate tax return on capital. for British Columbia. [1050] At this time I also want to say that I used to be on "Costs cannot be passed on to export markets, since prices and the Select Standing Committee on Finance. I'm look- most goods and services are determined by international markets. ing at the report of the select standing committee on the Therefore, any taxes on business costs must ultimately be borne by fixed factors in British Columbia through higher domestic budget of 2009 consultation, which was November 2008. prices or lower real wage paid to workers. It had members from the government side and also "To attract financing from investors, British Columbia's busi- members from the NDP. The Deputy Chair was from nesses must offer an after-tax rate of return on capital that is Surrey-Whalley and the NDP members from Skeena, at least as favourable as can be obtained in other jurisdictions. Malahat–Juan de Fuca and Coquitlam-Maillardville. Moreover, since the owners of capital are not affected by taxes on capital investment, it is employees who largely bear the burden One of the recommendations of the committee of such taxes. Further, taxes on investment impede the adoption at that time, which is on page 63 of the report, under of machinery and structure that improve incomes paid to work- "Tax policy," is recommendation 7: "Conducting a cost- ers, who are able to produce more products with the same hours benefit analysis on the harmonization of the provincial of work. "Recent economic studies" — continues Dr. Mintz — "sug- sales tax and the federal goods and services tax." gest that taxes on investments by larger companies tend to fall This report was entered into the Hansard on on workers, who are either paid less compensation or face higher Wednesday, November 26, 2008, in afternoon sitting.I t domestic prices on consumer goods they purchase. was supported by everybody, including all the members "It has been suggested that British Columbia's adoption of the on the committee and all the members of the NDP. HST will raise product prices for consumers, but this is far from clear. Clearly, the prices that that consumers pay incorporate vari- It seems like if we hadn't implemented the HST, if ous hidden and embedded retail taxes on business inputs that the economy had gone downhill, if the jobs had moved will be removed once the HST is implemented. Although it takes to Ontario, it would be the members from here who time for the elimination of taxes on capital goods to result in a would be stating that actually the government should be decline in the price charged to consumers, past tax reductions by the provincial government…are reducing the prices businesses thrown out because they did not do the right thing. They charges today." would be stating the Finance Committee, including the Dr. Mintz notes that when the Atlantic provinces that NDP in 2008, recommended we should harmonize both eliminated the retail sales tax on business input har- taxes. monized their sales tax with the federal GST, consumer [1055] prices fell. Dr. Mintz concluded his report with the fol- I think this is the right thing to do, and if somebody lowing information — that Bill 9 proposes that what the wants, they can go to the report themselves and read it HST will do for British Columbia is the way of the future in Hansard. for this province. He states: "As a result of British Columbia's harmonization of its retail Interjections. sales tax with the federal GST and the other tax reforms, by 2020 the province's capital stock is expected to increase by $14.4 billion, Deputy Speaker: The member for Victoria–Swan and 141,000 net new jobs will be created." Lake. Sales tax harmonization will reduce the marginal effective tax rate on capital for large and medium com- Interjections. panies by 8 percent this year over the last year. For small business, sales tax harmonization will reduce marginal Deputy Speaker: One moment, Member. effective tax rate on capital investment by more than 13 Members. Members. Order. percent this year over 2009. The member for Victoria–Swan Lake has the floor. "By 2018 British Columbia's marginal effective tax rate on cap- ital will be lower than the current average in 20 major industrial and emerging economies and lower than other provinces, except R. Fleming: I don't want to spend a lot of time re- three Atlantic provinces…. sponding to the member who has just spoken, but I "In summary, the tax reforms about to be implemented in think I should on a couple of points from the outset, be- British Columbia will have a profound effect on capital invest- ment, jobs and incomes in the province, representing a giant leap fore I make my remarks and contribute to the debate on toward its becoming one of the most competitive economies in Bill 9 this morning. the world." The member concluded by reading a recommenda- Based on Dr. Mintz's conclusions and his economic tion from a report from the Standing Committee on expertise, I have no hesitation in supporting this bill. I Finance. He implied that the motion that he read was an believe it is the proper decision for the future. It is a cor- endorsement of the HST. As a member of that commit- rect choice to ensure jobs, and it will create new jobs and tee who voted for it, he should absolutely know better. Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4355

The motion is no such thing — not at all. To continue The previous Minister of Finance said: "Never under in this chamber and in the media to suggest otherwise my watch would that happen." Here we are ten months is completely disingenuous, and the member should be later, and people are looking at July 1, when this tax will ashamed of that. be implemented if the government secures passage of this bill. That's still an if. I want to appeal to members, Deputy Speaker: Member. Member, will you with- perhaps newer members in particular, on the other side draw? who may not have made up their mind yet on how they will vote on this legislation, that we look at the option R. Fleming: I withdraw, Madam Speaker, and suggest of defeating it here, because they will stand up for their that the member should discontinue doing that. constituents, as I am standing up for my constituents, and be applauded for it. Deputy Speaker: Member. They'll be applauded for it because they didn't get elected with a mandate to bring in this tax, and now that R. Fleming: I withdraw the remark to the member on they've pulled it and foisted it on people, they're obli- that point, Madam Speaker. gated to listen to the feedback that they're getting in Another point. I don't have time to respond to all of their constituencies. the inconsistencies in his remarks, but there is one that People are looking at their bottom lines. They're look- comes from his own back yard that really does need to ing at their family budgets. They're looking at the bills be aired. To suggest that the Surrey Board of Trade un- that come in the door for utilities and for other monthly conditionally supports the HST and the means of its charges that they have to sit down as a family and fig- implementation as this government has gone about it is ure out how to pay. They're adding 7 percent to virtually completely false. every bill that comes in the door. They're looking at The real number that is important out of the Surrey their family budgets on a monthly basis and how much Board of Trade is the survey they conducted among their income is coming through the door, and they're won- own members. This member should be aware of that dering how they're going to make things balance. survey. It was delivered to his office, and 59 percent of It is a difficult thing that people are trying to adjust to, members of the Surrey Board of Trade oppose the HST. and it is something that I know many of my constituents That's the real number that matters. So to suggest that the and many British Columbians don't know how they will Surrey Board of Trade unanimously endorses this govern- manage. They're looking at, for those with young chil- ment's single biggest tax betrayal in the history, perhaps, dren, reducing their child's involvement in preschools of the province of British Columbia is ridiculous. and other things where they can. Really, the only way I think one of the most interesting points about this they can…. They're looking at reducing their housing debate on the bill, perhaps, is that outside of these cham- costs by moving into unsuitable accommodations for bers the public really doesn't need to be persuaded about their families. their feelings and their opinions on the bill. Already, I There are only a few certain things where you can think, the latest poll shows that 84 percent of British control the cost of living to meet the onslaught of a new Columbians are against the harmonized sales tax. So tax that is going to make a 7 percent bite on virtually all the debate in these chambers isn't about swaying pub- items that people consume in their daily lives — the 25 lic opinion outside of these walls. People have made up percent of the economy that will now be subject to a 7 their minds. They're frustrated. They're angry. They're percent higher tax in people's daily lives, the 25 percent talking to MLAs on both sides of the House to express that the TD Bank studied and discusses about the situa- their opinions. tion in B.C. In my constituency I'm hearing from an incredible B.C. has the largest number of exemptions in the con- cross-section of people who are salaried employees, who struction of our autonomous, provincially guided sales are small business owners, who own restaurants, who tax with over 30 years of public policy decisions about are retailers, who own manufacturing companies. All of how to shape it, what incentives we wish to provide them are surprised, angered, disappointed, upset at the people, what public goods we recognize and give a dis- control of information from this government, looking at count on. All of that is being abandoned by surrendering their bottom line, knowing that it will be bad for them control to Ottawa, which is something, interestingly and their families. enough, that the former Revenue Minister of this gov- They're unanimous against this government for im- ernment didn't equivocate on. plementing the HST, united against this government I can remember , only a year ago, a year for the way in which they've done it, having only ten and a half ago, saying uncategorically in budget debate months ago.… It was only ten months ago this govern- that B.C. would never surrender our sales tax system in ment categorically rejected the harmonized sales tax. British Columbia. We would never surrender the flex- [1100] ibility that provides to our province, the autonomy from 4356 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

Ottawa's direction that we enjoy, and it would never be thing they could do for the economy. But voters would done. I believe he even said to the member who was ask- get to decide if they thought it was the right decision for ing questions about it at the time: "You can take that to the province, if they thought it was the right decision the bank." for them. I think the B.C. Liberal Party understood well Well, Rick Thorpe is no longer a part of this govern- enough that if they had put that to the voters there isn't ment, but his government that he was formerly a part a chance that they would be in power today. of has taken British Columbians to the cleaners on that That's what it's about. That's what makes this bill even point. That's what happened. That's what his word and more odious — the political trickery and deceit that the word of this government counted for in the end. was pulled on the voters of British Columbia. We're Let's look at where the deception begins, because most not talking about the rocks of time. We're talking about people view this legislation as illegitimate, something ten months ago, in the context of a fixed-date election that the government simply doesn't have a mandate to that was known four years in advance — what the date do because they emphatically campaigned against ever would be. That is really the point that sticks with British doing such a thing. I mentioned the former Finance Columbians in the worst sort of way. Minister. I mentioned the former Revenue Minister. They spoke for this government, particularly on fiscal [L. Reid in the chair.] policy, before the election. They rejected the HST. Even as Ontario was announcing in January of 2009 It really is something that, especially when one looks that they would be pursuing it, B.C. maintained what at the appallingly low voter turnout in the last elec- turns out to have been a facade — that we were not in- tion, erodes the faith in our democratic institutions and terested in the HST, that we would not go down that breeds cynicism about politics in general — when gov- road, and that fiction held up during the election. ernments do that sort of thing to their citizens. It won't [1105] be the first time, but it could be one of the worst ex- The B.C. Liberals were pinned down and made a amples in B.C. history upon which it happened. campaign commitment to business organizations and I'm sure that to hold caucus solidarity together, or to voters that under no circumstances would they im- whatever the meetings are like on the other side, one plement the HST. Again, there was no equivocation in of the major things that the Premier and others keep the context of an election campaign for the B.C. Liberal insisting, especially to backbench members who are campaign to reject it. hearing it every day from their constituents — how out- It's interesting that now that we are debating this bill raged they are…. They're saying: "Don't worry about it. and the HST is being put through despite nearly 85 per- In three years voters won't remember." cent of British Columbians being opposed to it, despite That's what cynical political operators say. That's how having no mandate from the election to do it…. Looking they view the public. I'm sure that those conversations back, why would they do that? Why would they so cal- are happening and are being reinforced as the pressure culatingly, in such black and white, stark terms, make a mounts on members to actually stand up and listen promise and then break it six weeks after the election? to their constituents and vote their conscience on this Well, there are a couple of theories there. legislation, to really look at themselves and see if they The first is that it was completely premeditated, that have a mandate to vote for this bill. They're being held by the Premier and probably the Finance Minister had it in that kind of political message within their party. their minds well before the election that after the elec- I think after the election, when we knew the true in- tion they would follow the course of action that they tentions of the Premier and the Finance Minister to have, in fact, taken to date. impose the HST, it was very interesting because…. The secondary part of that point is that I think the [1110] B.C. Liberal Party and many of the members who TheF inance Minister and the Premier — to hold their were elected on the opposite side understood well story that it just dawned upon them sometime between enough that being truthful with voters about their in- May 13 and June 23, when they did a complete reversal tentions to impose an HST would be something that on the HST, and that is the window in which the idea to they would have to defend in the context of a 30-day impose the tax emerged…. They had to hold that story, campaign out there on the hustings, that they would because they don't want to be ridiculed as liars and have have to defend in the context of their Finance Minister that accusation stick — that they were thinking of it be- — their former Finance Minister — and other leading fore and during the election. members of the government saying that they would never do. Deputy Speaker: Member, I would caution you on It would be something that voters would get to ac- the use of your language. tually look at, and maybe the government would have made the claim back then that it was the single biggest R. Fleming: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4357

They don't want those kinds of accusations to stick, so about job losses. They and the tourism industry are pro- they need to hold the story airtight that they were not jecting between 10,000 and 40,000 jobs to be lost. considering it. Well, it's interesting. Well, in my city that means my neighbours and Once the freedom-of-information request came in, friends who work in those industries are going to lose the Minister of Finance said: "I had no conversations their jobs. That's a significant amount of employment. with my deputies about the finances of the province dur- It's also employment that in many cases, as the member ing the election, or the state of the deficit.I was too busy for Skeena mentioned previously, supports people get- out on the campaign trail. And besides, it's inappropri- ting through university to get skills to pursue other jobs ate" — I'm paraphrasing him — "for me to have such or create businesses upon their graduation. That was not conversations." included in Mr. Mintz's analysis. That's one of the first Well, lo and behold, it came out that such conversa- strikes against him. tions did exist. The Finance Minister knew the budget There's an old saying that if you get 12 economists in was careening off course by hundreds of millions of dol- a room together and have them solve one problem, you lars, and it was only the beginning of the first quarter of can be pretty sure you'll get them to reach at least 15 the fiscal year and would likely get a hell of a lot worse, different conclusions. Dr. Mintz is a great example of which it did. this principle or this old joke, because he was hired by the province of Ontario and organizations in Ontario Deputy Speaker: Member. to render an opinion on what the HST would mean for Ontario. Same topic, same focus of study — the HST R. Fleming: Heck of a lot worse. Sorry, Madam and what it would do for Ontario's economy. Guess Speaker. what, Madam Speaker. [1115] Deputy Speaker: I'll bring you back to consideration One guy — one economist — reached two different of Bill 9. conclusions. His first report said that the HST would be a disaster, would slow the rate of growth in the province R. Fleming: Thank you very much. and cost jobs. His second report, the one commissioned Then the freedom-of-information requests showed by Premier McGuinty after he'd introduced his HST that not only were conversations with deputies held legislation, said it would be a fantastic thing and would about the state of the finances in the context and during lead to all kinds of investment and create jobs in the the election, but there had been a number of meetings province of Ontario. arranged with the federal Finance Minister, Mr. Flaherty. One professor, one economist — two different opin- We're told that in these several diary entries, where we ions in the space of about six months between the know meetings occurred between the federal Finance reports. We're expected to believe that this gentleman, Minister and the provincial Finance Minister, that the this learned individual, is the basis for the message of HST was never discussed. the B.C. Liberal government as to why we should trust But then, when pressed on a radio program on CKNW, them and believe their wildly overexaggerated economic the Finance Minister let this out. "Well, it didn't occur, claims about the benefits of this tax? I don't think so. except once when we were at the coffee machine taking Look, there are some other things that interest me a break during the meetings, when the federal minis- greatly, in the work I do as an MLA on this side, about ter and I…." The story gets more and more ludicrous, this tax. One of them is the impact on our ability, by and this is the one that the credibility of this govern- eliminating the flexibility that provincial sales tax re- ment hangs on. gime gives us, to create incentives that in particular help The legitimacy, which this tax doesn't have, of this the environment. That's something this government bill hangs on this story holding. It doesn't hold, and claimed it was interested in, too, way back in 2008 when this government looks more and more desperate as they they created a number of provincial sales tax exemptions appeal to people to believe them. They look for this mas- for goods and services that were deemed to be environ- sive distraction show. mentally responsible. They have one single economist, who's been hired by This was part of the great green budget that the government, on which they hang the economic message Premier motivated after a conversion on issues around of this bill — Mr. Mintz. Jack Mintz is an interesting climate change. This was supposed to put some meat on character and an accomplished economist. But his re- the bone, if you will, around climate action that gov- port isn't very persuasive that this is a great thing and ernment would take to reduce carbon emissions in the will lead to the kinds of incremental direct new invest- province. ment in jobs that he suggests. It was argued that we needed to influence consumer First of all, he doesn't even address the concerns be- behaviour to buy green goods and services, to retrofit ing expressed by the restaurant and hotel associations their homes and their businesses, to conserve energy, to 4358 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

look at new renewable sources — solar PV and those income, is high. One of the things that economists like kinds of things. All of them were given a combination of Jock Finlayson and the B.C. Business Council stress is tax incentives, the waiver of the provincial sales tax and the prosperity gap that British Columbia suffers from. in some cases rebates. Real income, real household disposable income in That was the framework for the climate action plan. B.C., is well below the Canadian average. It's actually You know, quite a large section of the document outlines grown. The disparity between our standard of living the sales tax exemptions that were brought into place. and other parts of Canada has grown more severe in Would it surprise anyone to know, now that the HST has the decade that this government has been in power. been laid bare, that every single one of those green sales That's not me saying that. That's Jock Finlayson. You tax exemptions that were brought in, in 2008 has been can go on the B.C. Business Council website and down- unceremoniously dumped? load the slides. TheH ST, once it's in place on July 1, will take away any Less income in the household — disposable…. A lot ability of this province to exempt what we consider good of it is to do with factors like retirements and things behaviours, which are in the interest of the environment, like that. Some of it is to do with real wages, which have by waiving sales taxes. It's incredible, but consumers last fallen in a number of sectors, and a loss of good-paying year could take advantage of PST exemptions to insulate jobs under this government, particularly in the resource their homes, buy high-efficiency furnaces, heat pump economy. But the point is less household…. We're at a systems, green windows and doors, Energy Star appli- disadvantage in B.C. on the amount of money that we're ances. All of those things were a modest nod to…. Many free to spend. of these goods cost more than conventional energy-in- We're also the most besieged consumers when it comes efficient goods. That's the whole reason to give the sales to our housing costs. British Columbians pay dispropor- tax exemption. None of that exists anymore. tionately way more of their income to put a roof over None of that exists, and you know what's even worse? their heads. What does the HST do to those two prob- The HST has many components to it that support the lems in our economy in the context of a recession that conventional high-carbon economy. It's interesting, but we're still emerging from, where low consumer confi- they've slapped a new tax on used vehicles. They've elim- dence is one of the critical barriers to a speedy recovery? inated sales tax breaks that hybrid cars used to get. They bring in a new sales tax. Isn't that brilliant? Electric vehicles get no break. That's interesting, be- You know, I haven't seen a single member of the cause some of the leading climate scientists in British European Union or the United States — U.S. jurisdictions Columbia are saying that one of the ways to achieve the — look at raising sales taxes as part of their economic 33 percent greenhouse gas reduction by 2020 is to look stimulus and recovery packages. I haven't seen that. In at electric vehicles very seriously. So they're taxed at the fact, I've seen the opposite in France. They've actually re- full rate now. duced their value-added tax across a number of sectors Bicycles, as has been mentioned over and over again so that they can stimulate employment, basically recog- — something that this province first waived 30 years ago nizing that it is a job killer. — will be taxed for the first time in three decades. Now, the point I was making is this. British Columbians All of those environmentally low-emission, low-im- already are starting at a baseline where they have less pact modes of transport are going to be taxed more disposable income than their Canadian counterparts. under the HST. But guess who gets a break, Madam They have higher housing costs every month in their Speaker. lives to pay, and more of their disposable income goes [1120] to that. The HST specifically targets goods and services Cars valued at more than $55,000 that used to be that people need in their daily lives. touched by luxury vehicle surtax — that comes off.I can It targets exactly the area where British Columbians save money after July 1 of this year buying — I don't need a break in their lives. It targets specifically the hous- know — a large SUV with a huge engine and incredibly ing costs that we have to endure here in British Columbia low fuel standards. I can save thousands of dollars on by raising taxes on them. There's more tax on houses. that, which I would have paid a year prior. You can see it in the market right now. There's a bit of an Everybody else in the economy who is trying to do interesting panicked buy as people anticipate July 1 and the right thing by the environment gets to pay more for literally tens of thousands of dollars being added to the every type of environmentally efficient vehicle. That's closing costs on purchasing a new home. You can see it absurd, but that's what the HST is going to do. People in the decline in housing starts as the market chills in know that now. reception to the implementation of the HST. I want to go back to another point about Mr. Mintz, We already had a problem in the construction sector or just his study — the conclusions that the government in particular, after the 2008 financial meltdown and job calls their own now. Here we are in a province where loss. We saw tremendous job loss amongst skilled occu- the cost of living for all goods and services, relative to pations in construction. Government tried to respond Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4359

in this and that way, not very effectively, and now here most popular, not what was most expedient, but to do they are putting a new tax on units of housing — homes what was right, what was in the long-term interest of the built in British Columbia. It's unbelievable. It's unbeliev- constituents that I represented. able that that's how they would bring to the table for that There are many decisions that are remarkably difficult economic sector…. for politicians, whether they are at a local government Now, the other thing the B.C. Liberals say, in hav- level or at the provincial level. There is a range of in- ing no mandate to implement this tax: "Well, it's forced terests that exist in our society. They don't always align, upon us. We have no choice. Everybody else has one." and sometimes it is necessary, when interests and view- [1125] points don't align, to make a decision notwithstanding They point to various corners of the world where there that. I have, over those 31 years, seen many, many in- is a value-added tax and there has been for decades. We stances where well-intentioned and often well-informed live in the Pacific Northwest. We're surrounded…. Our people can disagree on what an appropriate decision is major trade partners include jurisdictions like Alberta, that needs to be made. Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Oregon, Washington and I've had the pleasure — not always a pleasure — of California, the fifth-largest economy in the world. chairing many rezoning hearings where, again, one can Those are our competitors for investment. They have hear a startling collision of interests and viewpoints on a similar economies to us in terms of resources, in many subject. Often those differences appear when we're debat- cases. We can think of the western states and their for- ing, whether it's locally or provincially, new facilities or est industries. We can think of the energy industries in a new programs. There'll be lots of debate around that. number of those jurisdictions that I've mentioned. Many Of course, there can be lots of debate on what the mu- of us have very strong clusters of a high-tech economy nicipal tax requisition should be, or there can be spirited and knowledge-based economy. debates about what the form of a tax measure should be, which is part of what we are discussing here today. There Deputy Speaker: Thank you, Member. Thank you, are lots of difficult, often heart-wrenching decisions that Member. need to be made in politics. [1130] R. Fleming: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the op- I must confess at the start that this has not been one portunity to make the point, and the real point that I for me. I do not find the decision around harmonizing want to conclude on is that all of those jurisdictions have federal and provincial sales taxes a difficult one. It may a sales tax regime that we currently have today. be a very controversial one. That it is, without question. It has been a very controversial issue, remains a contro- Hon. G. Abbott: I want to begin by thanking the elec- versial issue and is apt to remain a controversial issue for, tors of Shuswap for providing me with an opportunity to I'm sure, many weeks and months ahead. be a part of this very important and historic debate that But to me, this debate is tough only from the politics is occurring in this chamber. I do very much appreciate of the issue. It is not a difficult issue, from my perspec- that, and notwithstanding now 13 years in this chamber, tive, from a public policy perspective. This proposal to it's an honour that I will never take for granted, and I eliminate the provincial sales tax and to merge the prov- don't take it for granted in this case, because the debate incial sales tax with the federal goods and services tax is an important one, and one that I think will be attrib- is good public policy. I strongly support the harmoniz- uted much attention in the years ahead. ation of sales taxes because it is good public policy, and I've had the opportunity to be an elected represent- I will continue to support it for that reason. ative from the Shuswap area for some 31 years. I was, Again, that's not to diminish how difficult it is from a for a time, a regional district director and chair of the political perspective. There is undoubtedly considerable Columbia-Shuswap regional district, a councillor at opposition to this in the province. Nevertheless, there is the district of Sicamous and, as I noted, for the last 13 support for it as well. I think we have a responsibility as years an MLA for Shuswap. I've had an exceptional op- legislators, the 85 of us who have the remarkable honour portunity to represent the people of the Shuswap, and I of sitting in this chamber debating this issue and mak- appreciate that. ing some decisions about this. Over those many years…. I was remarkably young I think it is good public policy, and I want to take some when I started. That's why I retain this modicum of time today to talk about why it is good public policy, why youthfulness in the current years. Over those 31 years it is important to my constituents in the Shuswap and I've seen many, many difficult decisions that had to be why it is important to all British Columbians, because made at the political level. I think that's very important. I want to devote most of One thing or one principle that has always guided me my remarks today to how the HST will impact the busi- in terms of those difficult decisions was, in the final an- nesses and the public in the Shuswap — so looking at alysis, to do what I thought was right — not what was this from a constituency perspective. 4360 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

But it is important to set the context. I know there that we're seeing here, but I do appreciate your manag- has been much disparaging of economists and econom- ing to retain order through the provocative speech that ics, particularly from the opposition side of the chamber, I'm delivering here. and I can appreciate why they would wish to do that. The member, I know, is well-read. I know, actually, Most economists in Canada and most economists in that the member tries to look at all sides of an issue British Columbia are strongly supportive of a value- before forming a conclusion. That's why I'm just recom- added consumption tax versus a retail sales tax. mending some reading for the member. The member Most economists support that and support it strongly. may wish to look at this article, which I'm sure he would They have many and diverse economic models to support find useful, from the Fraser Institute of July 28, 2009, that. But the opposition would want to diminish and dis- entitled: "Harmonizing Sales Taxes is Smart Thinking." parage economists in that work, because that is where That's in the Vancouver Sun. they are residing politically at the current time. If one I won't quote from it, but the member may find it use- hopes to disparage a consumption-based, value-added ful to read that in terms of developing an understanding tax, then one diminishes and disparages those who sup- of consumption-based, value-added taxes versus retail port it, and that certainly includes economists. sales taxes, because I'm sure he is fascinated by the eco- I would observe at this point that one couldn't im- nomics of that debate. agine in British Columbia or Canada two groups who The member may also wish to look — again, to get a are principally economics-based and who are more different perspective, yet a perspective that arrives at the ideologically opposed than the Canadian Centre for same conclusion…. He will want to look, undoubtedly Policy Alternatives and the Fraser Institute. — because he is well-read and, I'm sure, well-rounded in The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives typically his own way — at a publication by the Canadian Centre is a group that one might more readily associate with for Policy Alternatives from December of 2009 entitled, the , both provincially and fed- delightfully, "Not a Tax Grab After All: A Second Look erally. The Fraser Institute resides on the conservative at Ontario's HST." side of the spectrum. I'm not sure who one would as- I'm sure that the member would want to look at sociate politically with that, but they certainly reside on that, because again, what one gets by reviewing materi- the conservative side of the political spectrum. als like this is a sense of how, whether from a socialist It's interesting that groups as diverse as the Canadian perspective or from a conservative perspective, har- Centre for Policy Alternatives and the Fraser Institute monized sales taxes make sense and, therefore, deserve both support the harmonization of sales taxes in this our support. province and in this country. Again, I know that I'm being very provocative in my [1135] statements, and inspiring. But I also wanted to point to So again, I appreciate that the short-term politics may a third document. This is a group which I have enor- be wonderful and opportunistic for the opposition, but mous respect for, and I hope that all members of this there is a great range of support for harmonization of House would have enormous respect for, and that's the sales taxes. Conference Board of Canada. TheC onference Board of Canada has produced what Interjection. I think is a very useful document in terms of politicians and the public understanding these issues. It is entitled Hon. G. Abbott: The member is asking many im- "Harmonize Consumption Taxes to Improve Economic portant questions, and I'll look forward to, I'm sure, Efficiency" — a very sexy title, unquestionably. The title answering many of those questions as we move through. alone, I think, would pull the member into reading this The point I am making at this point in time, which ap- document, because it is very provocatively titled. parently he takes exception to, is that groups as diverse I'll just quote briefly from this one, because I have as the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives and the enormous respect for the Conference Board of Canada, Fraser Institute can support…. So the member may wish and I think they very succinctly lay out some of the to…. benefits of harmonized sales taxes in this. [1140] Interjections. "The benefits of adopting a harmonized value-added tax in lieu of retail sales tax are manifold. Harmonization of all remain- ing taxes into a single value-added tax system would improve Deputy Speaker: Members. Member. economic efficiency across the Canadian economy. It would" — and it goes on to list — "simplify tax administration, minimize Hon. G. Abbott: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for re- the potential for tax evasion, eliminate distortions caused by taining order in such an effective manner in this chamber. the absence of a sales tax rebate on business inputs, promote increased domestic investment by Canadian firms, reduce com- I know I'm given to being a provocative speaker and in- pliance costs for business and increase the competitiveness of citing the kind of excitement on the opposition benches Canadian exports." Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4361

That is, I think, a very succinct summary of what an es- Hon. G. Abbott: Now I've really got everyone going teemed group of economists, the Conference Board of in the House, I know. This has prompted quite a spirited Canada, believes are the benefits of a value-added tax for debate about the price of tractors. British Columbia and Canada. But let's say, just for the sake of argument, that it's I share that view. I believe, notwithstanding the short- $20,000. That is a very cheap tractor in today's- mar term politics around this, that this is good long-term ket. No question about that. That $20,000 tractor today public policy, and I believe it is good long-term public would cost $1,000 in GST over and above the $20,000 policy which will be of enormous benefit to my constitu- and $1,400 in provincial sales tax over and above the ents. I want to explore that a little bit more now. $20,000. One of the things that I was able to do in earlier years in my life, for about 20 years, was be a farmer in the Interjection. Shuswap area on my farm at Sicamous, where I grew lots of strawberries and blueberries and the like. One of the Hon. G. Abbott: The member fromL illooet is amazed things I learned over those years as a real farmer…. that things could add up like that, and that's true. Today, pre–harmonized sales taxes, that GST of $1,000 Interjection. becomes an input tax credit, and it will be claimed and returned to the farmer in three months after the pur- Hon. G. Abbott: I'm only a pretend farmer now. The chase, more or less — sometimes a little bit less than member's right. that. In three months that $1,000 will come back to the But I was a real farmer for years, and one of the things farmer. that I learned through long experience in farming was In the case of the PST today, the $1,400 does not come just how critical the relationship between costs and back to the farmer. It is a bottom-line expense to the pricing is in agriculture. The difference between costs farmer. That's $1,400 that certainly will not be profit to and pricing often…. the farmer. It will not be money that could be utilized for additional employees. That could not be used for other Interjection. purposes on the farm. [1145] Hon. G. Abbott: I know the member across the This is the fundamental difference, using the $20,000 way is speaking up to support me in my analysis, and tractor example, between the GST, which is an input tax I support her supporting me. I think that's good as, credit, which the HST will also be — an input tax credit I think, someone who's involved in the agricultural which will be returned to the farmer — versus a bottom- enterprise. I'm sure she is undoubtedly aware of the line expense for the farmer on his annual budget. critical importance of costs versus pricing as well, be- Tractors are one of the big items that farmers pur- cause often farmers don't have a great deal of control chase, but the members opposite who may have been over pricing. involved in farming enterprises know that there are I believe the member opposite is not involved in many expenses annually which incur PST costs. It will a market-controlled product, just as I was not in- be an opportunity, whether it's irrigation equipment volved in a market board–controlled product, so she or other input costs, for the farmer to get those retail obviously knows that pricing is something that the sales taxes converted to input tax credits. It will be enor- farmer doesn't have a lot of control over. Often it feels mously important to the farmers of the Shuswap, as like you don't have an enormous amount of control it will be enormously important to the farmers across over costs either. British Columbia, to have that conversion from retail I'll use the example of a tractor, because I'm sure sales tax to input tax credit which doesn't go against the member can relate to that one. A tractor can cost a their bottom line. lot of money, Madam Speaker. I know you know that. In many cases it will mean the difference between sur- I don't know when the last time you priced a tractor vivability or non-survivability, profitability, the ability to out was, but it's been awhile since I did. I'm just going employ more people to work in the farming enterprise, to guess hypothetically that we could get a tractor for to expand the farming enterprise. These are enormously $20,000. important for farmers, and I'm very pleased to support harmonized sales taxes for that reason. It will make Interjection. our farmers more competitive, more profitable into the future. Hon. G. Abbott: That's a very cheap tractor — yeah. I want to talk about another example. In Sicamous I I'm sure tractors…. have a farm. Immediately next door to my farm is an industrial property that manufactures, among other Interjections. things, houseboats and worksite accommodation, much 4362 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

of which is sold in Alberta in the oilfields, but it's sold in I think I have a few minutes yet, Mr. Speaker. I know different places in Canada and, I'm sure, in the United you probably were watching this on television, were States and elsewhere in the world. enjoying the provocative nature of the debate and This is a substantial manufacturing enterprise. When wanted to join it briefly before we adjourned. times are good, which they are not now, they may em- I do want to say a little bit about the forest industry, ploy up to 90 people or thereabouts — currently much because the forest industry is huge for the Shuswap con- less than that but still a very substantial employer. stituency. It is huge for many other constituencies.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Interjections.

Every time, Madam Speaker — now becoming Mr. Hon. G. Abbott: The member for Yale-Lillooet re- Speaker, in the conversion that so magically occurs at minds me how important it is to his constituency too. this time of day — the manufacturer buys a new forklift, And the member for Powell River. I know he's a keen buys a new photocopier or anything in between those two supporter of the forest industry as well. So I know we items, what one has, again, is the GST, which becomes an have a receptive audience to this, because it is important, input tax credit and which is returned to the manufac- probably to the great majority of the 85 constituencies turer, versus the retail sales tax, the PST. That becomes an in our province. expense against the bottom line of that manufacturer. The forest industry in the Shuswap without question The same situation exists in the manufacturing en- is struggling. There have been mills closed for, in some terprises that are in operation in Salmon Arm, in cases, quite long periods of time now, with the collapse Spallumcheen and many other places in the Shuswap of the American housing market and demand for lumber. constituency. If we do not have harmonization of the It's had very adverse consequences on the forest indus- sales tax, it will be a penalty against our manufacturers try in the Shuswap. Nevertheless, despite that struggle in relation to Ontario. — and this, to me, is very interesting — Federated Co-op Now, the previous speaker suggested that somehow in Canoe, Interfor at Adams Lake, Tolko at Armstrong our manufacturers don't compete with Ontario manu- and Spallumcheen have made huge investments in their facturers. That is not the case. If we see Ontario move mill and forest infrastructure over the past few years. on July 1 away from a provincial sales tax to a harmon- They've made huge investments in those. ized sales tax and we do not give our manufacturers that Not surprisingly, all of those firms are strong supporters same opportunity, that same benefit, we will be immedi- of harmonized sales tax, even though they have made huge ately rendered 7 percent less competitive than Ontario, investments under the current form of taxation, which is a and we will see huge consequences from that. retail sales tax that goes against their bottom line. I've heard some of the rhetoric around capitalists and The reason why they support it is that those invest- corporations and so on at various points in this debate, ments won't be the last investments they'll make. They'll and it's fascinating to hear the rhetoric of class warfare be investing millions of dollars every year into the fu- appear in a tax measure debate. Nevertheless, it's good ture. Particularly as we see the forest industry recover to hear these things. I'm sure it's very good for the public in Shuswap, in British Columbia, in Canada, we will to hear a range of rhetoric, which they may have thought see a lot of investment in the forest sector, and we will was abandoned back in the 1960s but which still can be see our forest industry become more competitive as a uttered in this House. So that's good. consequence of the shift from retail sales taxes to a har- [1150] monized sales tax. So that's important. We do need to think not only about the people who But again, if the members must deplore the capitalist, own the businesses but, more importantly, about the the corporate barons who lead the forest industry, they many employees of those businesses and what the impact must at least be sympathetic to the other people who will be on them. Further, if a manufacturer in Sicamous work in the business, and there are many. or Salmon Arm either goes out of business because of Forest contractors, the folks who work in the com- lack of competitiveness or, worse, moves to Ontario to munity forest licences. I'm sure the members must have conduct a business there, it has a huge impact not only embraced that as one of sympathy towards them. The on employment, but it has a fundamental impact on our woodlot licensees, the small-scale producers. For them, municipal and provincial tax base. again, an investment in a $100,000 skidder is huge, and it If we lose people from B.C. to any other jurisdiction, represents, from the PST perspective, a $7,000 cost on a we lose that tax base. As a consequence of losing that $100,000 skidder against their bottom line. Again, there tax base, we lose the ability as municipalities, regional are countless ways in which they're affected, whether it's districts and as a province to maintain the critical pro- purchasing something larger like a logging truck or a grams and facilities that all require tax dollars to operate. power saw that can cost a couple thousand bucks, which So that's very important. is typically an annual or more expense. Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4363

These are huge issues for the Shuswap. These are huge On Vote 39: ministry operations, $2,719,996,000 issues for British Columbia. For me, I believe that British (continued). Columbia has a powerful, awesome future. [1155] The Chair:Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the We have an opportunity to see economic expansion Douglas Fir Committee Room, Committee of Supply, and diversification in this province over the next dec- Section A. We're here for the budget estimates for the ade, probably like we've never seen before. We have Ministry of Housing and Social Development. an opportunity to see many more British Columbians employed. We have the opportunity through that S. Simpson: Yesterday when we finished up, the expansion to see more First Nations, more new minister had just responded to the question about the Canadians — immigrants to Canada — having a role housing endowment fund, that it's a $250 million fund. I in our economy. wonder if the minister could tell us the dollars, the inter- We have a bright future. The last thing we need to do est, the investment income that comes off that — what is undermine the productivity of our province, under- the value of that has been in the last couple of years — mine the competitiveness of our province in relation to and where those dollars have been allocated. other jurisdictions. If we don't do this, we'll see invest- Hon. R. Coleman: The housing endowment fund ment bleeding away, employment bleeding away, the was initially $250 million. Its current value today is diminution of municipal and provincial taxes and the $283.2 million. It has $12 million in outstanding com- consequences there. But that's not what's going to hap- mitments and to date has done 50 projects for a total of pen. We are going to see, through harmonized sales tax, $25.4 million. a stronger province with a great future. Given that now it is five minutes before the hour, I S. Simpson: I don't need it right now, but could we think it might be appropriate that I move adjournment get a list of the projects that have been supported by the of debate. fund? Just get that later. We don't need to have that take up our time right now. Hon. G. Abbott moved adjournment of debate. Hon. R. Coleman: Maybe we'll just save the paper. Motion approved. All the projects that have been announced are on the B.C. Housing website. Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported [1010] progress, was granted leave to sit again. K. Corrigan: I have a couple of questions about the Hon. B. Penner moved adjournment of the House. women's transition housing and supports program. My first question is: I just wanted to confirm what the Motion approved. budget is for 2010-2011. It looks to me like it's $31.8 mil- lion, but perhaps I could just get confirmation that it's a Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 $15.9 million lift in 2009-2010 and then a further $15.9 this afternoon. million lift in 2010-2011.

The House adjourned at 11:57 a.m. Hon. R. Coleman: The member is right.B .C. Housing has allocated $31 million in 2010-2011 for the transition house program. PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM K. Corrigan: So $31 million. It looks to me from looking at the B.C. Housing service plan on page 35 that Committee of Supply there was $15.9 million, not that there has been a $31 million lift but simply that this is the completion of the ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HOUSING transfer of the program into B.C. Housing. Half of that AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT was done in 2009-2010 — the $15. 9 million — and then (continued) the B.C. Housing service plan says another $15.9 million added in 2010-2011. The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); J. That, to me, adds up to $31.8 million, but the min- Thornthwaite in the chair. ister just said that it was $31 million, so I'm trying to understand the discrepancy there as opposed to $31.8 The committee met at 10:07 a.m. million. 4364 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

Hon. R. Coleman: I apologize, Member. I was just vice plan is 730 spaces to serve women and children rounding — okay? So it is $31.8 million. What it was fleeing violence.I assume that is the total that you reach is that half the transfer took place last year, and the bal- in the various categories that the minister has men- ance took place in this fiscal year. tioned. I'd like a confirmation of that. Then I notice that in the 2009-2010 service plan for K. Corrigan: I'm wondering, because I don't have the B.C. Housing there were 780 spaces to serve women and numbers in front of me for 2009-2010 for the first half children fleeing violence. I'm wondering if the minister of the year, would the minister confirm how the funding could explain the drop of 50 spaces. for 2010-2011 compares to the overall funding, includ- ing the funding that wasn't transferred in but was in the Hon. R. Coleman: I suspect it's how they compile the previous ministry. What was the total for that program numbers in each year in the service plan, because if you in 2009-2010? add up all the numbers I read, the number of beds — 664, 27, 89 — comes to 780. So I suspect it's how they Hon. R. Coleman: There's been no change to the were actually stated in whatever plans you're referring budgets. to. They haven't changed. I know that we have the same budget, and we're basically dealing with the same num- K. Corrigan: There had been discussion heard in bers, transition houses, that we were before. the community, various documents and releases and so on, suggesting that there would be a $1.2 million cut K. Corrigan: I was just wondering if the minister to transition house funding this year. So the minister is would like to make a general comment on the split be- confirming that there will be no such cut? tween counselling and housing being in two different [1015] ministries and if the minister could confirm whether or not from the minister's perspective that is working. Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know whether we're…. I certainly know from talking to various people in- There's been no change in the funding to the transition volved with the transition houses that it's a concern to housing program. Now, there are programs that stayed some of them to have those two functions split. I'm won- with PSSG, the Solicitor General. We're not aware of dering if the minister could confirm how that's working and don't know whether they've made any changes. You out from the minister's perspective. might want to canvass that with the Solicitor General [1020] at the time of his estimates, because they haven't been done yet. But we're not aware of any other changes. We Hon. R. Coleman: B.C.-Yukon Transition House know that our money hasn't changed. Society and us and other providers are in, basically, a consultation about doing a review of the transition K. Corrigan: Just for clarification on that, it's my house program in B.C. now. B.C. Housing had managed understanding that the $31.8 million is simply to cover a number of these particular projects for years — ac- the cost of housing and does not include the counselling tually decades, in some cases. programs, and so on, that are attached to many of the They've actually had the responsibility for a lot of the transition houses. That's what the minister is probably transition houses — not all, but some — and it seemed referring to in terms of going to the other ministry. to make a lot of sense to have them in one place for a number of reasons. We're not the programmers, and we Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah. That's correct. I'll read into find that we can bring programming into the housing — the record what it does cover. whether it's mental health, addictions, whatever the case "The $31.8 million covers temporary housing that does not may be — with another ministry or Health, whatever exceed 30 days and provides people with housing, food and crisis the case, depending on the file. intervention and referrals. There are 63 transition houses provid- The biggest advantage of having this integrated into ing 664 beds in 57 communities. one place, though, is that we gain additional advantage "It also provides safe homes, which is temporary housing where transition homes do not exist, and does not usually exceed five for the people coming out of the transition houses to be days. That includes private homes, hotel units or rental apart- able to find quicker second-stage housing for them. We ments. There are 25 safe-home programs providing 25,564 - ser don't just have to manage second-stage housing that we vice hours in 26 communities today. have identified. In some communities we can actually "It also provides for second-stage housing, long-term housing following a stay in transition houses for safe homes for up to 18 tie it into portfolios and non-profit scenarios, so the in- months. There are nine second-stage housing services providing tegration piece is pretty good. 89 housing units in six communities across B.C." It's been a pretty seamless transfer. I haven't had any transition house societies that I know — and I meet with K. Corrigan: I notice that the total number of spaces some in my area of the province on a pretty regular basis that are mentioned in the 2010-2011 B.C. Housing ser- — that have said that this has been a problem. The pro- Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4365

gramming side really does belong more with, I think, Only this day he comes back to that mat and the door PSSG and victim service–type relationships. is shut, and he has no mat to roll off and no sense of But the management of housing stock over the dec- peace, and he goes back to a slot in the ground under- ades has oftentimes…. When it sat in a ministry that neath a tree or underneath an overpass or underneath a didn't actually have the capacity to know and under- pile of waste. And it's your door that's shut, Minister. stand how to maintain a building and what have you, it [1025] actually wasn't advantageous for the stock. So I think Now, I've been in estimates this fall and in the last few that it's a pretty good relationship because B.C. Housing days, and I know that this minister cares about his min- is a pretty good integrator, and so they integrate with the istry and cares about the effects his ministry has on the other services pretty well. people of this province. I'm not going to ask the minister why he shut the door, but I would like to ask the minister K. Corrigan: Just one more comment. I won't have why he and his staff cannot find a way within this budget any more questions, because I know that we're pressed to keep this door open for my friend. for time, but just following up on what the minister said. Hon. R. Coleman: Maybe the member could tell me One of the concerns that many people do have, though, where this is, what community, what the name of the fa- unfortunately, is that…. While the minister is talking cility is and that sort…. about a seamless operation and progressing from one type of housing to the other, what we have found — tra- V. Huntington: I don't know the name of the facility. gically, in some cases — is that the social housing that It is in Vancouver, and I think it's one of those facilities is needed there for people who have been in transition that are about to close. houses is not available. We certainly had one case in Burnaby, I understand, Hon. R. Coleman: Well, we did canvass this issue yes- where somebody had been in a transition house, was terday, but if you have a person's name, we can connect waiting to get into social housing and lost their life when them to an outreach worker, and we can deal with it. that happened. In addition to that, as I told the critic yesterday, we're So while I appreciate what the minister says, I think going to make an announcement probably within the that in the long run what we do need is more social next day or so on what we're going to do with what you housing so that there is some place for women to go would refer to as the HEAT shelters in Vancouver. — women and children, sometimes — when they have There are three or four of them that are definitely finished with the transition housing and need more going to close. They were put in neighbourhoods by ar- long-term housing — that they are not being forced to rangement and agreement by neighbourhoods that they go back to abusive spouses. would only be open to April 30. That was a commitment that was made by both the city and us to those neigh- V. Huntington: Unfortunately, I wasn't able to be here bourhoods because of some of the difficulties they bring all day yesterday, so I hope I'm not repeating the issue as the weather changes and the fact that we've already that I'd like to ask the minister. I would just like to tell identified additional shelter space and housing for the the minister a bit of a story. people that are there. I know a man, Minister, who tomorrow morning will They're still open until the end of the month, but we've roll off his mat and, if possible, wash his face and then has actually been working with the people that are in them to leave his place for the day. He will walk to the areas of to make sure that they're open. We're the only jurisdic- town he knows best, and he will try to find something to tion in Canada that actually operates our shelters 24-7. eat. He will search the bins, if they aren't already owned Our permanent shelters — and we have three times as by somebody else, and he will search the garbage pails, many of those just in Vancouver today as we had six and he'll go into the alleys behind the restaurants. years ago — are up 24-7, and they offer meals and that He may approach you with his hand out, and he may sort of thing. thank you for the loonie and the quarter that he's of- We connect people with outreach workers, and so it's fered. He's afraid to lie down and rest because old people a challenge…. If we could find out who and where, you and sick people are being attacked by young hoods look- can rest assured that we'll get an outreach worker in con- ing for money and drugs. So he'll wander throughout tact with the individual. It's a little tough to deal with the day in his underworld. otherwise. He'll urinate in an entryway, and he will defecate be- We know that we have made significant strides, but hind a bush. As the day ends, he'll make his way back to there's still work to be done. But we don't have any shel- that mat. He does this day after day.H e looks forward to ters today that are closing tonight that weren't open going back to that mat because it's the limited security yesterday, and so I don't…. The shelter may have been that he has when he sleeps. for one of the cold weather shelters that was open, but 4366 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

that would have been closed in January because they're I understand the difficulties they pose for some neigh- only activated during severe weather. Then we have that bourhoods. I know my family's company has had one protocol across the entire province for that type of cli- beside it, and it can be difficult, even in an industrial mate activity and stuff like that. area. But you feel that staff and the outreach services are There are four levels of shelters. There are the perma- able to accommodate those individuals, especially if we nent 24-7 shelters. There are the temporary shelters that ensure that the names are provided? we've put in place through different periods of the year. There are the cold weather shelters, which are open dur- Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah, we do. Since 2006, when we ing the wintertime in communities across B.C. formalized the outreach program in B.C., we've housed Then there's the severe cold weather strategy, which 8,700 people that were previously homeless in B.C. into is activated by community organizations that have the housing with mental health and supports for their addic- ability to decide at any time, because of the local weather tions and whatever. We've managed to do that because conditions, to open additional shelter space, which we we work very well with our partners, including the cities pay for. But they actually get to make that call, because and our non-profit sector. they're in those communities. The biggest challenge with any individual is their Other than that, I can only say that I think we've ac- acceptance of accommodation. We do have people tually found a pretty solid solution to some of the issues that, even when we do have accommodation for them, that are in the media today. But we're making our de- choose to not take it, and that's something we can't do cisions based on what we can accomplish, because we — force them to take it. If we get the information on don't have a partner in the city that wishes to put any the individual and find out where they might be, we'll money into operation. When we made the offer to them send an outreach worker to find them and sit down with to share that, they didn't want to share on their shelters, them and see if we can find a solution for their particu- and so that leaves us with the economic challenge of do- lar issues. ing everything. We have great partnerships elsewhere where we do S. Simpson: I understand and appreciate that there have communities that step up. We're working through were rent increases in B.C. Housing developments for those issues. I think you'll find by the next day or so people on shelter allowance. I believe they took effect that that issue will be dealt with, but I can tell you that in January of this year. My understanding of the calcu- we made the commitment, and so did the mayor of lation that's used is to take the shelter portion, reduce Vancouver. That city made the commitment to those the shelter portion amount by a calculation to deal with four HEAT shelters — that they'd only be open to the utility costs, and then that becomes the rental charge. end of April. And that's because of the neighbourhoods Can the minister confirm that, and then could he tell us they were in. what's included in that piece that's hived off for utilities As I said to the critic yesterday, one of the things we — phones, those things — which is set aside? can't do is break that relationship with communities when we say that something will stay open to a certain Hon. R. Coleman: I will try and walk the member period of time and close, because there may be a day through this. The tenant actually doesn't receive more where we actually want to put a permanent building or less out of their social assistance. The tenant gets up for people with mental health and addictions who need to $375, I think it is, a month for housing. Basically, the supports like that in the community that they want to rent increases are to a flat scale for income assistance re- build in. cipients living in social housing. We want them to believe us that we would actually give Basically, it will have no financial impact on the the services and the supports to the community when tenants because the shelter portion of their income as- we do it, so we can't break our word on the temporary sistance gets adjusted to reflect the increase. But what stuff, because it could affect what we do permanently. it allows us to do is that it allows us to harmonize our I'm also not concerned about it from the standpoint expenses relative to the money that we're spending on of the fact that we had the same situation last year. We social assistance in our social housing projects, which did find housing for all the people in those shelters. We then allows us to have rental revenues that we can use to did connect them into shelters that had space in them. provide supports to people that are vulnerable tenants to That work is ongoing and has been going on for a couple help to ensure they have successful tenancies, as well as of weeks, and we're in pretty good shape. support and maintenance and improvement programs [1030] for the province's social housing stock. [1035] V. Huntington: I thank the minister. It is some com- For instance, basically, if you were getting…. A sin- fort that those four shelters that are closing, then…. You gle person's rent is $296. It is increasing to $320, which feel that the individuals in them will be accommodated. is an increase, but it's also still within the allowance of Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4367

the $375 a month and so on. I'll wait for any additional Housing — the building manager, whatever — make the questions the member might have with regards to it. case for why they think the allocation is out of whack It was really us harmonizing our business within the for their circumstances, and then B.C. Housing has the revenues from one portion of the ministry to another. capacity under the regulations to be able to adjust that Because if they pay less rent, we pay them less. Quite rental portion if they concur that there's an anomaly? frankly, they only get whatever they're paying in rent or up to the maximum of their rental supplement, so their Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah, that's true. Obviously, if it lives on their rental income don't change. was a huge anomaly, there would be questions about: what other things are you running that are electrical S. Simpson: I appreciate that in terms of the rent por- that would cause you to be different than the other 50 tion that's paid. The piece here where it's a little bit less tenants in the same project that you're in? Or whatever clear is that, as I understand it…. For example, a family the case may be. We'd probably ask questions, but there of three that would have been, in 2008, paying $390 will is, on a case-by-case basis, the ability to adjust for any- now be paying $595 — about a 3½ percent increase one. We do have within our system the ability to do that overall, percent change. for someone. Now, my understanding here as to what happens, though, is that B.C. Housing takes a portion and says S. Simpson: None of us here are talking about other that this will cover costs of heat, electricity, telephone, a anomalies that are maybe over and above just bad insu- variety of things that are in a package that B.C. Housing lation in the building that causes the heat to go up. says are legitimate costs around the shelter portion. They Moving to a slightly different question, I'm looking exclude that amount of money that normally would be here at a piece that came out from ROMA-BC, the rental in shelter costs, leave that with the tenant to pay those owners and managers folks. bills and charge them the rest. [1040] The questions I have are about that portion. What's I'll just read a little piece here. This is something, a included in that, and how is the determination of the piece that they sent out to their members, I guess. It in- value of those done? volves what they call rent controls. "Rent controls aren't going away. Given that, we've made a sub- Hon. R. Coleman: The member is correct. What mission to the minister advocating an increase in the base of the we do is that we have heat allowances and those sorts rent control formula and the ability to pass through operating costs, the same as the manufactured home park industry in B.C. of things, and what's covered are hydro, heat and tele- The minister has indicated he is prepared to recommend funda- phone. It's the basic telephone. The heat allowance is mental changes to the rent control formula. However, these chan- based, for instance as an example, on location, unit size ges must be approved by the government caucus. He can't achieve and heat source. Tenants who are responsible for paying this by himself." their own heat costs also receive a heat allowance, which Then it encourages their members to go and lobby the is deducted from the flat rent amount in order to offset minister's colleagues in the government caucus. some of the heating costs. Could the minister tell us whether he is considering, as it suggests here…? I certainly wouldn't suggest that S. Simpson: The last question in relation to this is: this necessarily reflects what the minister will say, be- how do those reviews get done to make sure that infor- cause he didn't write it. Is the minister going to be mation on the costs of those things stays pretty current recommending fundamental changes around the cur- so that folks can reasonably expect that the amount of rent rent policy? money that's allocated there is enough to pay those bills in an average or reasonable situation? Hon. R. Coleman: Of course I didn't write that arti- cle, so I won't allude to whether it's totally correct. But Hon. R. Coleman: We track this. We have annual re- I did mention to the member for Vancouver–West End views of all our stock. People actually do annual personal yesterday that one of the issues that's in front of us is reviews in order to maintain the fact that they're in so- the fact that apartment owners would like us to look cial housing and what their rents would be. In addition at whether we could possibly see how we could work to that, we track it all through our social housing stock. a flow-through that would be better for them relative We have heat allowance tables, and we update them on to the similar issues in and around manufactured home an annual basis, and if we have an anomaly, which can parks. happen from time to time, we deal with them on a case- I did also say to him at the same time yesterday that by-case basis. really what it is, is that each year these organizations, both the tenant groups and the landlord groups, bring S. Simpson: In the case of the anomalies, if somebody their issues to us, and we agree to work on them and has that situation, I'm assuming they can contact B.C. look at them and see what the possibility is. There are 4368 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

all kinds of discussions in and around whether there an opinion on that, because it really isn't in the bailiwick should be rent controls, what percentage they should of the residential tenancy branch. Really, what their job be, whether there should be none and to let the market is, is basic landlord-and-tenant relations. We do get sub- actually dictate rents — you know, all of those things. missions from these groups from time to time. I suspect Those have always been swirling around in this particu- they're probably sending me one, and we'll look at it at lar file since I got it in 2001. the time. We've always managed to work through these people's issues, on both sides of the fence, over time. There's no S. Simpson: I appreciate that what the number might particular initiative today, other than that we're looking be — whether it's 1 percent, 2, 3, 4 or 5 or whatever it at all the things that we've been asked to look at by these is — is not at all clear, and there hasn't been definitive various organizations with regards to some of their costs information provided to the minister that tells him what and their ability to do their business — and, also, like that number is. So I don't want to suggest for a minute when I had the discussion yesterday about how we can what it might be. streamline processes for dispute resolution and those But the question of the principle that says that if there sorts of things. That work goes on all the time. are increased costs incurred here because of this tax Certainly this particular organization has been very — the additional tax costs related to the HST on a cer- clear that it would like to have some stuff.I think there's tain number of products or services that a landlord or a some merit in having a look at it, so we're having a look building owner might purchase — they have the ability at it. to pass those costs through as part of their rental charges. Is that a principle that the minister is supportive of? S. Simpson: We've been back and forth through this in the big House and in question period. One of the Hon. R. Coleman: Not necessarily. The reason I areas the minister will know. The apartment owners say that is because it depends how they structure their association has calculated that the HST will cost them, business. If they have a large apartment block with a depending on size of building, in the 3 percent range. maintenance person who's on salary, they could be do- That's the number they're putting on the table in what ing the painting, the landscaping and all of that stuff and they believe will be their increased costs for building there would be no HST paid to some contractor. Each maintenance, upkeep, etc. business model is going to be different. I know that they have certainly indicated their desire My understanding is that they have sent something. to be able to pass that along, in addition to the cost-of- They think it's between 1 percent and 3 percent, but they living increases that they would usually move forward haven't quantified it any further than that. I understand to attempt to pass along. The messages from theF inance they're going to be sending us more information on that, Minister, who has responded to most of these ques- which is fine. tions when they've been raised in question period and You know, it really depends. I know people who do elsewhere, have been not entirely clear about where the all their own maintenance in their apartment buildings government's position is on that. with their own staff, and it has absolutely no impact on Could the minister responsible for this here tell us them whatsoever, because they're still paying PST on all whether he is considering allowing the HST costs, what- their materials — for the price of the paint and any gaso- ever they are, to be passed along to renters? line they're putting into their lawn mowers and changing [1045] and those sorts of things. I don't think it's one that we could quantify here today. Hon. R. Coleman: I understand that we have a bit I do know that each operation is different, and each of work going on, on this. I haven't seen any quantifi- operation has a different form of staffing and how they able numbers from this organization with regards to it, do their contractors. It may mean that as time progresses, so it would be inappropriate for me to comment on it. I as they get used to it, they will look at their business do know that in the early stages I did some calculations, models. I guess that'll be how they have to deal with it, and like I think the minister said, it was a pretty min- because that's what they'll have to deal with. imal impact. I'm incorrect. It was Finance that has the 1.5 per- At this stage I would just agree with that. I haven't cent to 3 percent impact. I haven't got anything from seen anything that would have me disagree with that at BCAOMA, other than that they think it might be higher. this stage. As we work through the other stuff we've been We haven't received any quantifying numbers. asked to look at, we'll look at that at the same time. I have not received any submission at this stage that S. Simpson: I would just say to the minister now that I I would say gives me any definitive number one way or think, in lieu of time constraints, we're done with housing the other. And I haven't seen Finance's numbers with matters, and we'll be on to income assistance matters. regards to it, so it would be inappropriate for me to form [1050] Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4369

M. Sather: I just wanted to ask the minister a ques- Just to give the member sort of a tenor of the numbers, tion about income assistance in Maple Ridge, our office. on social assistance, in December 2008 in B.C. we had What I'm hearing from constituents is that the office has 149,864 people. In December 2009 we had 174,830. That gotten a lot busier in the past year, so I wanted to ask grew by about 3,000 from November 2009, when we had the minister: what was the total caseload in the office in 171,453. The expected-to-work category has actually Maple Ridge a year ago, and what is it today? been about, since November, 40 percent of that growth, because it's gone from 52,000 to 54,000 over that period Hon. R. Coleman: We don't have those numbers here of time. It has grown since 2008, of course. today. We do know that our caseload across the prov- Basically, the rest of it, the other growth…. We've seen ince is up, because that's pretty much been stated. That's fairly consistent growth in disability assistance. It went why we have a $120 million pressure on the budget, be- up from 81,000 in December 2008 to 85,800 in 2009 in cause we're at high numbers. November and then to 86,207. It actually dropped be- But on an office-by-office basis, we don't have that tween November and December in 2009. data here because…. It's also because we have cost data. Our expectation, given the trends and information Because we do a lot of telephone stuff and on-line stuff that we know, is that we will probably flatten out on now, people would not necessarily go to the Maple Ridge our numbers sometime this year, probably by June. office, but they could be from Maple Ridge and are do- Then we will start to see, as the economy changes, a ing their consults on line or on the telephone. steady decline, because we do lag behind the econ- We will get that information for the member and tell omy on our numbers, usually because we trend slower him what they are, but we just don't have it here. We've because, particularly, small business leaves their new pulled it out for other communities when they've asked hires or their additional hires to the last and tries to for it in the last year. We just have to pull it out. We may hold on without having to add more people at the get it before the end of the day. It's not that we're not go- slowest pace. ing to get it for you; it's just that we don't have it here. That trend has always sort of been the same way over the years during different cycles. So we have pretty good M. Sather: Could he provide that information to me data to watch the cycle. in a written form? S. Simpson: The minister is saying, and I believe — S. Simpson: A more general follow-up question to the minister could confirm this — that the folks who those of my colleague. As the minister has said, there are doing the intake, largely, and dealing…. We largely have been significant caseload increases across the have the intake workers — financial aid workers, largely province, primarily from employables who now find — who are doing that work on behalf of the ministry for themselves on income assistance. Could the minister people who are coming in the door. tell us what additional resources have been applied, not Is the minister confirming that over the last couple just to pay income assistance to those folks but addi- years there have been no reductions in the number of tional resources in the offices overall to be able to meet financial aid workers or intake workers in the offices in the increased caseload demands? British Columbia?

Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, we haven't cut any Hon. R. Coleman: That is correct. front-line services to any of our offices inB .C., in spite of the fact that we have a $1.7 billion deficit. We've found S. Simpson: We know that there are mixed reviews any efficiencies we had to find for finance in other areas about the systems, the intake systems. The ministry of the ministry. At the same time, we've changed our moved a number of years ago from caseloads to this operation over the last couple of years to be much more system of kind of one-stop shopping and first-come, efficient on a number of areas. first-served, as you call and you get whatever worker is First of all, we have more phone service so that people the next one in the rotation or however that works. But can just phone in and do their service. They don't have it's a case of workers not having caseloads, dedicated to go to an office. caseloads, per se. [1055] Has the ministry done any assessment of how that We now do group intakes, where you don't have to be system is working, not just in terms of the efficiency for in a line. You can actually come in with a group and do the ministry, but any assessment of how that system is your forms and do your intakes. We have much more working in terms of how it works for the recipients? on-line self-service which has helped it, and our folks [1100] seem to be handling it. Of course, I think they're prob- ably working harder, but they're doing a pretty good job Hon. R. Coleman: We get feedback from our clients, out there. but our service standards are monitored. We're meeting 4370 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

our service standards that we've set and will be mon- If the minister embraces that view for things like hous- itored. We do still have personalized services with one ing for the homeless, and then if he is to embrace that worker for clients who can't manage in any of the mod- view when it comes to how we meet the needs of vulner- els that we have, particularly those who can't do well able people who are on income assistance, it would seem standing in a line and need to have personalized service. that an important piece of this is: how are the services We still provide that. meeting the needs of those people in ways that may be deeper than just a statistical analysis? S. Simpson: I understand that there are standards. I'm not sure whether the minister is saying that there When you change the system, you probably look at the is no such analysis done for how people get their ser- standards. The question I'm asking is a slightly different vices met. If there is, I'm wondering whether that's one. It's: has there been any analysis done that quantifies documented. or gives some determination of what the benefits and [1105] challenges are for that system change that moves from a system of caseloads to this sort of first-come, first-served Hon. R. Coleman: I hope the member is not implying system for the vast majority of people? I know that there that my folks don't give services to people on the basis of are always unique circumstances where you have indi- their needs. I have thousands of people, professional staff viduals who require unique services, and I appreciate in offices around the province, working in social service that — but generally this shift in how the department offices, and service standards do include people's indi- operates here. vidual needs. They meet service standards. I'm just trying to determine whether anybody has Now, if you want to have a caseload analysis of each taken a look and prepared any reports or analysis that individual's outcome with something, I guess that maybe says: "Here's what we gain, and here's what we lose by I don't have that today. But I do know that these guys doing this in terms of efficiencies for us as a ministry do one phenomenal job. I don't know how many social — and what we gain and what we lose in terms of how service offices the member opposite has gone through or services are delivered to the people who come through talked to people or dealt with people with regards to how the door." they deal with the clients, but the service standards are basically built around the services to our clients. They're [H. Bloy in the chair.] not service standards that are anything else but. Our folks meet those service standards on a regular Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know what the member basis. We actually analyze data to make sure that we're is looking for. I mean, I guess he could go study stuff achieving that. We actually talk to the legal advocates to death and go do a whole bunch of reports. We es- and other people who are working with people who are tablish standards for service — how long a client is on most vulnerable to make sure that we are meeting our the phone and how their services are delivered or how clients' concerns. Quite frankly, I have to admit that, they're dealt with in the office. having been the minister for two years, I'm very im- We set those standards of service, and we have people pressed with the people that work in this ministry in on the front line who are meeting that standard of ser- social services and the commitment that they have to vice. Then we have supervisory people who monitor our clients. whether they're accomplishing the services there are, all within the envelope of…. S. Simpson: I know that the minister likes to make For instance, our expected-to-work caseload is usu- those kinds of statements, and this has nothing to do ally with us, on average, no more than five months. They with the people who work in the ministry. They work cycle through pretty quick on average. We have an active very hard. The line workers work very hard. They do the engagement system with legal advocates to ensure that best with what they've got, and they do the best with the we hear our clients' concerns, so that can be basically put system that the minister gives them. back into our standards of service. Then we continue to The question here is not whether they work hard, not monitor the service standards so that we're delivering whether they care, not whether they're doing the best the most efficient and the best service we can. job they can do in the interests of the folks who come to see them and to seek their help. The question is whether S. Simpson: This minister, hon.C hair, I would expect, the structures and the systems afford them the best op- more so than many…. The minister always talks about portunity to do the best job they can. That's what the the need to look at the individual and how individuals discussion is around, and just what level of analysis…. are affected by what the government does and how the The problem with this ministry, like this govern- government delivers its service and how those individ- ment, is that it makes change after change with no uals are treated and what the results are for them. This thought. It's not very thoughtful on these things, and can't be just…. we'll talk about that in a minute when we get to the $25 Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4371

million of cuts that the minister announced earlier in Hon. R. Coleman: I've spoken to them. They weren't this session. That's the problem that we have here. I'm overly enthralled with it, but they weren't actually totally assuming from what the minister said that that analy- negative on it either. They felt that the one a year was a sis has not been done, and if I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll standard that was in a lot of families, and they felt that correct me. with the changes in different toothpastes and stuff and I want to move on. I'm sure that the minister will re- water systems over the years, that it was something that spond to that latest comment of mine, so I won't worry could be managed. about giving him the opportunity. He'll take it. Their bigger concern was that we do what we did with Could the minister tell us: in the cuts, the recent in- the $700 a year and allow it to be $1,400 over two years, come assistance changes that were announced — cuts because they felt that was the big change that was very to dental services, medical equipment and supplies, important for the health of the children and for the fam- nutritional supplements, diet supplements, funeral sup- ilies with regards to dental arrangements. plements and minimum shelter allowances…? Could [1120] the minister tell us what consultations were done and with whom before the decisions were made to put those S. Simpson: I guess that we'll all get mixed messages cuts in place? from what different people tell us. [1110] What other consultation did the minister do — con- sultation particularly with people in the medical Hon. R. Coleman: I'm not going to rise to the bait to community since a significant amount of these cuts, the the closing comments of a few minutes ago. I'm satis- discussion around them…? The public discussion has fied that we have worked to have…. We couldn't have been whether cuts around some of the equipment and supplies and the nutritional supplements and that are handled, first of all, the increases we have if we hadn't cuts that are eroding what might be preventative ser- worked for continuous productivity in the services for vices or preventative programs, and there is concern our folks. about what the impacts are down the road. Our folks do a great job out there. That's why we Could the minister tell us what consultation he did with changed, so they could have computer access, phone the medical community before advancing these cuts? services, group intakes, individual intakes for people with difficulty. That's why we measure our services. Hon. R. Coleman: This was a review of our services, I think that the member and I will just decide to dis- done internally by us as a ministry, looking at all the agree on this one. literature available with regards to what services were Basically, we didn't do a lot of consultation on the available elsewhere, across governments and in the pub- changes we made. We compared interjurisdictionally to lic — a comparison to what services were provided in other provinces, to what was being offered with regards other jurisdictions in Canada and a look at what the to the services in British Columbia. We talked to the Medical Services Plan and PharmaCare provided and Ministry of Health and spent some time with regards to what we thought, at the end of the day, was necessary for medical supplements, and we worked with the dental as- our clients with regards to services we could give, given sociation on the dental side. the fact they do get MSP and PharmaCare. We felt that Mr. Chair, I'd like a five-minute recess, please. these changes could be managed. We did them in the light, quite frankly — as the mem- The Chair: Committee A will recess for five minutes. ber well knows — of a $1.7 billion deficit and in the vein of the fact that we had a significant financial pressure The committee recessed from 11:11 a.m. to 11:19 a.m. on the ministry with regards to a growing income as- sistance caseload at the time and felt that we should…. [H. Bloy in the chair.] In many cases, we found duplication where we felt that services were already available by a prescription from a S. Simpson: The minister, in his response to the ques- doctor or whatever the case is. tion related to cuts, said that there was some but not So it was probably a healthy exercise for the ministry a great amount of consultation. The minister did talk to go through and look at what was service to be deliv- about consulting, I believe, with the dental association. ered by income assistance. In many instances, changes Could the minister tell us whether the dental association are bringing policies into regulation that already existed supported in that consultation the changes to dental ser- that hadn't been brought into place and that sort of thing. vices and, in particular, the changes that related to the So it was a review of the operational side. We made the number of visits that would be allowed for dental ser- changes based on a whole number of factors, and those vices, a change that cut to once per year from every six factors were mainly internal with regards to the review months for young people? of the ministry. 4372 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

S. Simpson: These cuts do have a medical impact. In eliminating what we did in changes for a number of It's unfortunate that the decision was made not to things, including the money that we make — investment have a significant consultation with the medical com- in disabilities, for example — we eliminated duplication munity. I know that in a piece that was prepared in the in the health care system when we have other sources of Times Colonist in mid-March, comments were made by supply. There was no point in us supplying something Dr. Danica Gleave, a physician at a health centre here that was already supplied. in Victoria, who said when asked about who was con- There's new efficiency, including purchases of least- sulted: "Certainly not a doctor I could ever imagine." Dr. cost items and reuse of basic equipment when a client Gleave goes on to predict dire repercussions from the no longer needs it. We had people that were actually not health cuts to people on income assistance. "It just baf- wanting to take a particular model of a scooter because fles me," she said. "These are people who have no backup, they wanted more options like on a car, and we said, "No, no other resources." we will provide the basic item of the scooter rather than In a somewhat similar vein, Dr. Perry Kendall, the the difference," which saves money. chief medical officer here in the province, also com- Just to correct one thing. There were small earning al- mented on this and inquired about whether there had lowances allowed in the 1990s but not at the level they been a cost-benefit analysis done of these cuts.H is quote are today. was: "The impact should be monitored, as this may turn Consistent use of income testing to ensure services out to be counterproductive to health and budgets in the are provided to those who need them the most. We en- longer run." sured programs are consistent with other jurisdictions [1125] and ensured regulations are consistent with policies and Considering that, what analysis was done? Other are ensuring clients with other resources are accessing than the financial savings, what assessments were done those resources prior to ministry resources. within the ministry, if not with external forces, and were For instance, if they had a pension, a small pension there assessments done? Was there an analysis or a re- and were still receiving assistance from us for some- port written to suggest what the impacts might be on thing like, for instance, Veterans Affairs, we would say this? What longer-term analysis is going to be done as no. We would try to work with Veterans Affairs for the to whether the costs of this will be greater long term, as services first. These programs included dental, diet, people like Dr. Kendall have raised concerns about? medical equipment and supplies, monthly nutritional supplements, medical services and life-threatening Hon. R. Coleman: It always amazes me how every- health needs. body else wants to spend everybody else's money with We've worked with this package to make sure it's bal- some comment they make about something they may anced off for what we think the services are available. read in a newspaper and not actually have done the And yes, some of them were services that were over and work themselves. Let's try and deal with this from the above what would be normally provided. We did cut standpoint of where a person on assistance is today ver- some of those in order to find some savings so we can sus where they were ten years ago. sustain the system so we can make sure that we provide Let's remember, first of all, that they get MSP. MSP al- income assistance to people in British Columbia when lows them to get a prescription for almost everything that they need it. we decide to deal with in any of these changes. If they get something from a doctor, they've got PharmaCare, so S. Simpson: I always feel good when the minister they can go get this stuff. We were actually doing things gives one of his longer answers, particularly when that were a duplication to the health system that made he focuses the answer around what happened ten absolutely no sense whatsoever. years ago instead of what's happening to people to- The budget for disability assistance has increased from day who are facing this situation, most of whom, I'm $307 million in the last ten years to $771 million, which sure, aren't terribly concerned about ten years ago. is an increase of 150 percent in funding for persons with They're concerned about their lives today. But it al- disabilities. The rate for a person with PWD single has ways tells me that clearly the work wasn't done. This increased from $771 a month to $906 a month, and the was an accounting measure, and people were not a earnings exemption has increased to $500 a month. consideration. Just for the record, the earning exemption was not As we've seen throughout this budget process, the allowed during the previous ten years, and there had only people who seem to fall through the cracks are vul- not been an increase in any form of social assistance nerable British Columbians. Everybody else seems to be in 15 years. So not only have we increased the amount getting taken care of in some way. of money we give to our clients; we've also given them Because we're on a tight timeline, I'm going to an opportunity to earn more so they can actually help defer to my colleague over here, who has a couple of themselves in their own lives. questions. Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4373

C. Trevena: Because of the tight timeline, I will keep $100 a month for volunteer time that they might put in it to one question. I think it's following on a bit from at an agency. what my colleague was asking. Could the minister tell us what the amount of the I have a constituent, Mark Kiefer, who is on disability. budget for the supplement is, and how many people are He comes to my office very regularly.H e's written to the enrolled or taking advantage of that supplement? minister, and he has written to the minister's predeces- sor, . He's written to the Premier. His Hon. R. Coleman: The community volunteer supple- line always, when he comes to my office and what he's ment budget is $5.3 million, and there are 6,449 people, stated in his letters to government ministers, is: "I can't to date, on the program. live. I can't afford to live. When am I going to get some more money?" S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us what the [1130] waiting list is for people who are hoping to get on the Mark is a person on disability. He's got physical dis- program? I know there are a number of people that are abilities. He's got mental challenges, but he's bright looking to get on the program. enough to know how poor he is and the fact that he just [1135] cannot afford to live. As I mentioned to the minister, Mark has written Hon. R. Coleman: There are about 5,000 people who many letters to him and to the minister's predecessor would like to come onto the program. and to the Premier. Mark has never been graced with a response. I'd like to ask the minister on Mark's behalf, S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us whether there's because I had promised to ask this on Mark's behalf: been any assessment of that program and the value of it? when will Mark get more money? If Mark won't get I would think it would be valuable not only because it more money, will the minister please write to him — he gives people who are on a modest income an extra $100, has had the letters and will have the address on file — to but also it's a very good encouragement to get people explain to him why he won't get some more money? into volunteer activity and that, which might help lead them to getting off of assistance at some point, if that's Hon. R. Coleman: I have a very long summary of dif- a possibility. ferent rates we've raised since 2001, but I won't waste Has the ministry looked at this as a tool of that kind the time reading it all into the record. I can tell you that and given any consideration to looking at ways to get if this person is on disability, they have received a $70 some of those 5,000 people into the program so it may increase or 15 percent in 2007. They also received a help them to achieve that? $50 across-the-board increase to shelter allowances in all client groups, the first increase since 1992. That also Hon. R. Coleman: I'm a fan of this program, and took place in 2007. that's why we didn't cut it. That's why we made other When we review rates, the ministry takes into con- choices within the ministry, so we could maintain this sideration the cost-of-living studies, inflation, welfare program. Over time we'd love to be able to add to it as rates in other provinces, the dietitians report on the cost the economy allows us to or budgets allow us to. of eating and recommendations by the B.C. Progress It really isn't about the fact that people get back into Board and others. We recognize that we are the payer of the workforce on this. Most people that do get the vol- last resort and that we have changed a number of things unteer supplement are actually at a level where their for people with disabilities. They can actually go make employability is very difficult. But it does get them com- more money than they were ever allowed to make, if munity participation, and it does get them socialization. they want to get some extra dollars. We think it's an important cog. Now that you have given the name on the record, I It has grown substantially over the last few years, and know that we track all correspondence coming into the so have the people on the list grown substantially, I think ministry, and if it was written directly to me in the min- probably it's because of the large uptake in the number ister's office, thenI would have a record of it. If not, then of people with disabilities that we are seeing coming it may have been sent to the ministry itself, but we will onto our system. track down the name and the letters and see if we've re- Obviously, in the future as we see changes, as we ceived them, and then we will actually send a response come forward…. We've actually almost doubled this to your constituent. budget in the last few years to the level that it's at to- day and would like to be able to increase it in the future S. Simpson: I want to move a little bit to a discussion when the economic circumstances and the budgetary around the community volunteer supplement. This is a operations allow. program the ministry has that allows people on assist- You have to make choices on all your overall budgets. ance to be able to earn, as a volunteer, honoraria up to We just talked about some cuts the ministry made to 4374 British Columbia Debates Thursday, April 15, 2010

allow it to keep programs like this intact. We do have What had happened now is that not only was his ap- fiscal challenges in every ministry, and we have to meet plication rejected, which means delayed…. He had to our responsibilities to government. Would I like to reapply and pay the default money that he owed, which do more? Absolutely. In the future when I get the op- means additional fees. They're not cheap anymore. I portunity to go back to Finance with my budget, I will think it costs $1,400 or $1,500 or maybe more, and now obviously highlight this as one of the programs I'd like the delay of six or seven months further. to enhance. I think this is something that he felt that he was victim- ized by the ministry as well — not only by his wife and the S. Simpson: I would certainly encourage the minister, system, but now by the minister. The minister said that he if he has the opportunity, to do that. would let him know if she applied. Had they done what The minister may know this; I'm sure his staff do. he was promised, he would have paid or he would have I can recall, back in the late '70s, early '80s, I guess it made the arrangement. He wouldn't have incurred the would have been, the Vancouver opportunities program, extra costs for the second application or the delays. which was a program set up by the predecessor, the min- So my question to the minister is: how is this pos- ister of whatever it was at that time. I do remember that sible? You assure the constituents that "This is what we program and many, many people taking advantage, very will do," and then you don't do it, and it cost the con- similar: $100 for volunteer activity through the non- stituent a delay, and it cost money. profit sector. I know there was some analysis done in those days. Hon. R. Coleman: I can't comment on what a previ- I'm sure the ministry has that. It was a program that ous minister said or did not say or do. I know that there was very successful in a whole array of ways in getting are issues sometimes around the sponsorship program, people who are on assistance and marginalized in some and I'm happy, if the member gives me the details, to ways engaged again. have a look at it. But I don't recall the specific file coming I think my colleague has a question or two. to me. It may have. But given the number of files that do come across my desk, I may not have had it, or I'm just H. Bains: I have a constituent. We have written to not familiar with it off the top of my head.I f you want to the minister on his behalf. His name is Mr. Ramandeep give me the documentation, I'll look into it over lunch. Singh Lali. He came to our office and felt that he was a I note the time, Mr. Chair, but I will answer the mem- victim of a fraud marriage. He sponsored his wife from ber for North Island's question. India. They lived there as husband and wife for four They asked when the person might expect a response weeks, and then he sponsored her. to their correspondence. The individual has written to As she arrived at the airport, she decided to go her the ministry 72 times in the last two years, so is a fre- own way. She didn't even spend a minute with him. He quent writer to the ministry. I responded to Mr. Kiefer, was worried and contacted our office, and we contacted to answer his questions, on November 28, 2008. He has the previous minister's office, advising them of what received a response from me. We don't respond to all 72 had happened and of his application and complaint to letters, obviously, because they are basically asking the Immigration Canada and the RCMP. same questions that were answered to him already. We were assured by the previous minister by letter…. Noting the time, hon. Chair, I move that the commit- As you know, they sign a three-year commitment. If they tee rise, report progress and seek leave to sit again. go for government assistance, the sponsor is responsible. He was worried that that could happen. He is already The Chair: Under agreement, we're going to allow a victim, but now he could be victimized twice by be- one or two more questions, until ten to today. ing held for the income assistance that is being paid to them. H. Bains: For the minister's information, we did write [1140] to your ministry, as well, on January 14, advising you of As a result, we got the assurance from the minister's what had occurred and the dilemma that the person was office in writing, saying that if Mrs. Lali applied for in- put into. come assistance in the future, your constituent, Mr. Lali, I think that in this particular case the damage is already will be notified by the ministry." Then he thought that done. His application was denied. The ministry actually would be good enough. advised Immigration Canada that he is paid up, and there Well, when he applied for his second wife, he was shouldn't be any issue with it. But the question remains, denied the right to sponsor, because now he's told when the minister advised in writing that "we will advise that he is in default as a result of this previous situa- you…." That had been the practice previously when we tion. When we contacted the ministry office, first they were dealing with these issues before. The ministry always said: "Well, we don't know what happened. We feel insists that we advise people who are in that situation be- bad about it." fore they approve income assistance. Thursday, April 15, 2010 British Columbia Debates 4375

Then the response to that letter came: "Oh, well, be- Hon. R. Coleman: This is the wrong one. I got this cause she complained, a threat of violence." I mean, one sent in to me, and I assumed, when they sent it to there's no record of that. No one did any investigation, me, that it was with regards to that file. and he is left simply in this situation, delayed for his We'll get the information. We'll dig it up. I guess second wife to come, and extra costs. they've dug up the wrong thing, so let's get the right I think that someone failed here, Minister, and per- thing dug up and deal with it — okay? haps that's what you need to look at. I'll provide you the information. S. Simpson: Noting the hour, I just would tell the [1145] minister and his staff — and we will step down here in a second — that I have one more area related to income Hon. R. Coleman: There's no need to provide the assistance for us to deal with post-lunch, and then we'll information. This letter was sent to you at your con- get to lottery business after that. But I've got one more stituency office in the last few days. "I'm responding to area to deal with before we get there. your February 23, 2010, letter regarding the sponsorship agreement of your constituent, Mr. Singh Gill. This min- Hon. R. Coleman: I move the committee rise, report istry has established procedures to take all reasonable progress and seek leave to sit again. steps to notify a sponsor that their sponsored relative is applying for income assistance." Motion approved.

Interjection. The committee rose at 11:47 a.m.

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