DB14053 DPACASS055

I: This is Tom Puleo, and I‟m interviewing Ann Ribbink, and her son, Ray is also here, and it‟s July 22, 1997, and why don‟t you start, Ann, by telling us a little bit about what it was like growing up in Grand Haven at the turn of the century pretty much. You were born in 1902, correct?

R: Yes.

I: Okay. Where was the first homes that you can remember growing up in?

R: Well, the first home I remember was in the 1200 block on Slayton Street, and there was a streetlight about a block away from our house, and in the evening all the kids in the neighborhood would gather there to play, and at 9:00 when the curfew blew, we all had to go home.

I: So they actually had a horn that you guys could hear?

R: Yes, yes.

I: Could you hear it all over town?

R: Oh, you could hear it everywhere.

I: Did they ever say the reason why they wanted to use that?

R: No, I don‟t remember the reason. I guess just that they thought the kids should go home and go to bed.

I: Okay, did you ever not go when the curfew bill rang, or was that common?

R: Oh, we did, if we didn‟t our parents called us.

I: So you had no choice either way?

R: That‟s right.

I: You were going home at 9:00 no matter what, even if you had something to do?

R: Mum eh.

I: Were those roads paved back then?

R: Oh, no. It was all dirt roads.

1 I: Dirt roads?

R: No sidewalks or anything. I can remember when they layed the first pavement on Washington Street. I don‟t know just exactly what year it was, but I remember the men working there.

I: Okay, so that was a big deal, and everything?

R: Oh yes.

I: Was that a brick street at one time or not?

R: Downtown, it was brick, but what I remember then was, that was paved.

I: Okay.

R: Farther out on Washington.

I: You also grew up around Seventh Street?

R: On the 600 block of Seventh, no 600 block of Elliott Street.

I: Elliott Street, that‟s correct in what is considered Center Town?

R: Mum eh. I was about 16 when we moved there.

I: And what was that neighborhood like then knowing now that there‟s Meijers and the highway and all that kind of stuff down there?

R: There weren‟t any stores down that way then at all. It was just, really where Meijers is now; it was all swampy in there.

R2: When did the lumber yard go in there? VanZylen?

R: VanZylen lumberyard was there, come to think of it.

R2:It was there?

R: Yeah, it was there.

R2: Was it VanZylen?

R: Yes, it was always VanZylen‟s. Then, of course Rycenga went in there quite a few years later.

2 I: Basically, it was the same spot or where they?

R: No, VanZylen was right on Seventh Street.

I: Okay.

R2: It would have been way out where the Medical Center is there, way out in front.

I: Okay.

R2: Everything behind there was all swampland, basically, celery farm.

I: What were the nicknames you told me about earlier, people that lived in different areas?

R: The kids, they had nicknames of kids from the East end were Eastenders, and then the downtowners and then the swampies. The swampies were down at the end of, well where Meijer‟s is, you know, in that end of town.

I: Is that where your father grew up?

R: No. No, my father grew up on the first block on Seventh Street.

I: Okay and both your parents were born in Grand Haven?

R: Yes.

I: Okay.

R: My mother lived on Fulton Street, about the 1200 block of Fulton Street. That‟s where my mother‟s folks lived.

I: Okay, and your grandparents you said were born, where did they come from?

R: Both grandparents came from the Netherlands.

I: And do you know how your parents met by any chance?

R: No, I don‟t. No, I don‟t think they ever told us. But then they moved to Rockford, Michigan for about 12 years or so, something like that, „cause I lived in Rockford „til I was about 10 years old, and then they came back to Grand Haven.

I: What kind of jobs did your father have?

R: He worked on the railroad a lot.

3 I: It seems to be a job that would be important back then.

R: Mum eh.

I: Back then, how did you travel? How did you get places?

R: Walked. Well, we didn‟t have a car. We walked. The first car our family was when my brother that was two years older than me. We bought an old second hand Chevy together. That was the first car.

I: Did you use horse and buggy stuff? Did you get around by that at all?

R: We never had a horse and buggy, no.

I: Okay, what about the Interurban? Do you remember that?

R: Oh, I remember the Interurbans well. They came down Seventh Street, and went right straight down Seventh Street to Fulton and then down Fulton way downtown.

I: Okay and you could get on the Interurban in Grand Haven. Where were the spots that you could get to from there?

R: Well, they would stop on any corner if you wanted to get on the Interurban, and you just had to stand on the corner, and they would stop and pick you up.

I: Okay.

R: That was going out of town.

I: Where were the destinations you could get to out of town, I guess, is what I‟m asking.

R: Well, they had a junction, where was that junction, near Fruitport, I believe.

I: Yeah.

R: And then you had to change cars there to go to Muskegon or Grand Rapids. The Interurbans went all three places, Grand Haven, Muskegon and Grand Rapids.

I: Okay, so that junction is in Fruitport, so really, if you were going to Muskegon, you went to Fruitport first and then to Muskegon?

R: Yeah, maybe the junction wasn‟t in Fruitport, I don‟t know exactly.

I: I think you were right.

R2: It seems like it was.

4

I: I think it is there. From everyone I‟ve heard and talked to, it seems like it was there.

R: Yeah, that‟s right. Mum eh.

I: Kind of had to take a long way around. What were some of the games, you talked about some of the games you guys played when you were kids under that street light?

R: Oh, we used to play Hide and Go Seek, and Pom Pom Pull Away, and Run Sheep Run.

I: What is Run Sheep Run? I‟ve heard that more than a couple times, but I never played it.

R: I don‟t know if I can remember how that went anymore, but I know that was the name of the game.

I: Okay, and what was the other, Pom, Pom?

R: Pull Away.

I: What was that? Do you remember that one?

R: I just remember the names. I don‟t know how we played „em anymore.

I: On a lot of the tapes I‟ve listened to a lot of people talk about those games, and they don‟t remember them either, but Hide and Go Seek I understand.

R: Yeah.

I: I played that one myself.

R: Yeah.

I: Okay, so you‟re in Grand Haven, how did you and your husband meet? He was a local Grand Haven person, too? He grew up here?

R: I was introduced to him by some friends, and we went to a football game when Grand Haven had to play in Grand Rapids, we went to a football game, that was our first date, and out for dinner.

R2: He lived just around the corner from you didn‟t he.

R: Yeah, but I didn‟t know him.

R2: You lived right over on Seventh Street where Boulevard Used Cars is right now.

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R: Yeah, but I didn‟t know him, but then some of friends of his wanted to go to this football game, and they introduced us, and the three couples went to Grand Rapids.

I: Now was he older than you then, in school?

R: Two years.

I: So that‟s probably why you didn‟t know him at that point?

R: Mum eh.

I: Okay, and getting to a football game in Grand Rapids back then, you guys went by car, right?

R: Oh, he had a friend‟s car, mum eh.

I: How long did that take back then; do you remember kind of, compared to today?

R: I really don‟t know.

I: Okay. Probably a longer time I would think though. What highway did you take or was there even a highway, or did you go Leonard Road?

R: I don‟t remember.

I: Okay. I know that Leonard Road at one time was like the main way to get to Grand Rapids.

R: Mum eh. I don‟t remember which way we went.

I: Okay.

R: I just know we got there.

I: We won‟t ask you if Grand Haven won or not, either.

R: I don‟t even remember that.

I: Well, then he had your attention then, it sounds like.

R: That could be.

I: And what did he do for a living?

R: He was a molder. He worked in Dake‟s Foundry.

6

I: He did that for?

R: Most of the time, but the last few years of his life he worked at Oldberg‟s. What did he do there?

R2: He was shuffling parts around.

R: Oh.

R2: Basically, he worked at Challenge Machine, too.

R: That‟s in the foundry?

R2: Worked the foundry at Challenge Machine for quite a while.

R: Yeah.

R2: He was at Dake‟s all during World War II. He wanted to go into the service, but he couldn‟t get out of the foundry. He was kind of locked in there.

I: Did they at that time, do you know, did Dake‟s start producing anything for the war effort?

R2: That‟s the whole

I: That‟s why they wouldn‟t let him out probably. What were they producing?

R2: Basic parts, I really don‟t know. I can remember going down there with him as a kid, and you know, checked the molds after everybody was gone, make sure everything was okay, and I can‟t place the exact parts other than a few of the things he made for us.

I: Okay, Ann do you have recollection of World War II, do you remember World War I at all?

R: Yes.

I: You would have been about 11 then.

R: I remember when the boys left Grand Haven for World War I.

I: What was that like?

R: Well, it was a sad time.

7 I: Did you have, you brother was only two years older so he probably didn‟t?

R: No, he couldn‟t join either.

I: Right.

R: He wasn‟t old enough.

I: What was the attitude like during that war in Grand Haven?

R: Well, it was kind of scary really.

I: And when it was over, did they have like a homecoming for the guys that went?

R: Yes. I remember when they came home. They took the Interurban from Grand Rapids into Grand Haven, and they parked on Seventh Street there, and then they had a march from there down to the Armory. I remember that distinctly.

I: So they got to parade themselves back into town?

R: Yes, yes.

I: Okay, now so that‟s the way you can remember about World War I, and that was a long time ago?

R: Yes.

I: After that, you were married, and we talked about that for a second, but we also talked about Grand Haven‟s Centennial, being alive for that, and that was celebrated in August, 1934.

R: Mum eh.

I: What can you remember about that Centennial celebration?

R: Well, I think it lasted about a whole week. They had a pageant and big parades. I remember they brought in oxen and Indians.

I: Heard they had marching bands actually in the parade.

R: Oh, yes, yes, mum eh.

I: How does it compare with the Coast Guard parade? Bigger or smaller?

R: Oh, it was a lot bigger.

8 I: Was it really?

R: Oh, it was a big parade.

I: What streets did they go down?

R: Well, all I can remember is them coming down Washington Street way down to Seventh from downtown, „cause we stood there on the corner of Seventh and Washington to watch it.

I: Besides the parade, do you remember any other things they did to celebrate the 100th anniversary?

R: The pageant, of course.

I: Did they have a queen then?

R: No, I don‟t think so.

I: Okay, what was the pageant then?

R: It‟s in this book here.

R2: I thought you said something one time about they had some ballgames or something connected with that, too, at Ferry School?

R: Oh, that was a long time after.

R2: Oh, it was after?

I: Well they had a pageant.

R: Yeah. That was quite a while after we were married when we lived out there on Slayton Street.

I: Do you remember Greenhill Hill Field; I think it was called, where the present football stadium is?

R: Mum eh, at the high school, yeah.

I: Did you ever go to any of the events or things that were there?

R: We went to football games there, mum eh. Isn‟t it still called Green?

R2: Yeah, it was just the football field at first.

9 I: My dad still calls it that. But they call it Buccaneer Stadium.

R: Oh, that‟s right.

I: [Inaudible – two talking]

R2: Well, I think they played their first games there in like 1946, ‟45 or ‟46.

R: I don‟t remember the year they started.

I: Did they play at Ferry School before that?

R2: Yup.

R: Mum eh.

I: And that was almost in your neighborhood where you grew up?

R: Yes.

I: So did you go to the games then?

R: Oh, yes, we went to a lot of games.

I: You went to Ferry School, didn‟t you?

R: Yes, I attended 5th and 6th grade.

I: Do you remember anything about the days at Ferry School, any memory that you might have of it?

R: No, just that it was closer to home.

I: That‟s okay. School memories, I think, are the first ones we forget probably. [Laughter] Okay, so Grand Haven had that Centennial celebration, it actually was in the time where the Depression was occurring. Do you remember any affects of the Depression on you or your family or the town?

R: Oh, yes. I remember the Depression. My husband wasn‟t working, and he went fishing a lot. We ate lots of fish, but we liked them. It was a good thing we did „cause that‟s all we had.

I: Then World War II happens, and we talked about that a little bit that your husband couldn‟t go, but he worked at Dake‟s.

R: Mum eh.

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I: What was that atmosphere like for World War II in town? Do you remember anything specific?

R: No, I don‟t remember much about that. Seems like I can remember World War I better than World War II.

I: Well, you were younger that might have been some of it that it would be an impression on someone 12 or 13, but World War II, do you remember a parade or anything like that fanfare when it was over?

R: Right now I can‟t remember, but I‟m sure there had.

R2: Oh, yeah, we went to the parade.

R: I‟m sure they had parades.

R2: Saw your oldest son driving your car down the road, through the downtown section.

R: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Now I remember, yes, that‟s right. [Laughter]

R2: I remember that.

R: Mum eh.

I: Is there more to that story?

R2: That‟s enough. [Laughter] I remember walking around with Dad when he was, they used to have these blackout tests to make sure, and he was one of the ones that had to walk around, make sure that everybody had all their lights out and all that kind of thing. I remember walking around with him and doing that. Used to do that quite often.

I: Do you know what the purpose of that was for?

R2: In case there was a raid, that the people would acknowledge the sirens going off to warn them of such.

I: Okay, so they knew the sirens were working?

R2: Yeah.

I: And after World War II, we started the Cold War with Russia, and I know a lot of TV shoes and other things will talk about bomb shelters. Do you remember any of that in Grand Haven?

R: No, I don‟t.

11 I: Seeing any of them? Anyone that had „em? I haven‟t been in one either.

R: Uh eh.

I: On TV, they make it sound like everybody had a bomb shelter.

R: I don‟t remember anybody having „em.

R2: Mostly the only ones I remember were people building a lot of shelters for tornado safety more so than bomb.

I: I mentioned TV, and you grew up before there was TV.

R: Oh, yes.

I: What do you remember about TV or when you first got it, what was it like?

R2: That was 1951. I can remember that.

R: Yeah, yeah, when Millers had their first TV.

R2: No, that‟s when we moved out here, in 1951.

R: Yeah. That‟s when they used to have good shows. Bert Park Show, that was a wonderful show, the Arthur Godfrey Show, those were good shows. I wish they‟d have some more of them nowadays.

R2: We used to walk over to Miller‟s house, across from where you lived there, and watch the boxing, I think was on Wednesday nights.

R: Yeah, yeah.

R2: They‟d invite us over every Wednesday night.

R: Mum eh.

R2: That‟s when the oldest brother, Jim, was going with Lois, which, it was like an adopted daughter to them, actually their niece, she lived with them, so we got invited over there.

I: Yeah, the TV‟s definitely changed. You mentioned that, but what do you remember before TV? Was there anything that you did, board games, kind of things, cards, things that you‟d do for leisure?

R: Well, I can remember when I was young; us kids would sit around the table, and do our homework and play games like Old Maid and Rummy and things like that.

12 I: Wow. For someone that wants to be a teacher, the kids did their homework. [Laughter from Respondent] I like that. Maybe we can rid of TV again for a while. [More laughter]

R2: It would help.

I: Yeah.

R2: We probably played more games than homework.

I: The other thing that you have is, is it First Presbyterian?

R & R2: First Reformed Church.

I: Has had several fires that we‟ve noticed. The present building is the sixth building that they‟ve had.

R2: According to this, it‟s the sixth building, yeah.

I: It started out in a little farmhouse, and then they worked their way into some bigger ones, but they had a couple fires, and you remember one of the fires, right?

R: I remember the last one, mum eh.

I: 1913, I think was that one.

R: Mum eh.

I: What can you remember about that?

R: Well, we didn‟t go down to it, but I remember the minister and his family walked out from their walk way out to the East end past our house. We lived in the last block on Columbus Street, and they walked way out there just to get away from the fire.

I: It was pretty big. What happened then for, what did you guys do for services and once that happened?

R: There was a Unitarian Church across the street in that same block there, and they let us have our services there.

I: So that is like where NBD is now, or what‟s on that corner?

R: Where the Post Office is now.

I: Okay, kitty corner then.

R: Mum eh.

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R2: Then the Methodist Church went in there later, didn‟t they?

R: The Methodist Church built on that corner, mum eh.

R2: Where the Post Office is now.

R: Mum eh.

R2: I remember they tore that building down.

R: Oh, yeah.

I: What other things can you think of that have changed in your lifetime? I mean, you were born in 1902, so you‟ve gone through the entire 20th century, and I think that‟s amazing. I hope you make through the entire one into the next one, but just differences in life style to the way it is now, do you think it was a different pace of life when you were first in your youth then today?

R: Oh, there‟s a big difference in the things that children do „cause we didn‟t, all we ever did was play under the street light and roller skate. We had roller skates, and when they put in sidewalk we‟d roller skate down to Central Park and back. We had baseball games.

I: Was that an event that a lot of people went to like I think there were company teams, it was [both talking]…

R: There was factory teams, yes, they had those over at Ferry School, and oh, that was a lot of fun. We went to all of those, yeah.

I: I was told those were big „cause my grandfather always played and coached the Challenge Machinery.

R: Oh did he?

I: Yeah.

R: Mum eh.

I: And they said there were huge crowds there, and if there was no TV, I can understand it would be kind of like a big deal.

R: Oh, yeah. That was a big deal. That was a lot of teams.

R2: City league teams used to get a good turnout of fans years back. I can remember when I was a kid going to a lot of games.

14 I: When you moved out here to Lake Avenue, what was it like out here? How much development was here then that is here now?

R: There weren‟t many houses, were there?

R2: No, there were quite a few cottages.

R: Yeah.

R2: Summer cottages, but it was just starting. The trend was then to take the cottage, and remodel it, winterize it, and people were moving from town out this direction „cause there was one, two, three, three of „em right here and we all did that. That was in the area of ‟49 to ‟51.

R: Yeah. We moved here in ‟51.

R2: We bought it in ‟49.

R: Mum eh.

R2: They couldn‟t keep me home „cause I was out here all the time so it was like, remodel and move out. [Laughter] I think I was 14 when we moved out here.

R: Yeah, this was just a little cottage, and we remodeled it. We really enjoyed it, went fishing all the time. Could catch fish no matter when you went out in those days, we could catch fish, but they don‟t seem to be here any more.

I: Pollution is a problem with some of the fish populations around here.

R2: It doesn‟t help any. The water is very dirty this year. I think it‟s dirtier this year than I‟ve ever seen it. You just can‟t see anything in the water, and a lot of it has to do with the water being so high, too.

I: Yeah, it is. I‟ve seen it downtown where it starts going through the channel where the boats, the charter boats and that are or the slips that‟s almost up to the level of the sidewalk.

R2: Yeah.

I: Which it‟s never that high. Okay, when you were a kid, you guys played all those fun games. Were there ever things you guys did that might have got you into a little mischief you got into that?

R: [Facetiously] No way! [Laughter]

I: Never?

15 R: No, I don‟t remember getting into mischief. We probably did, but I just don‟t remember.

I: Okay. Were there dimestores and stuff like that that you guys could go to, and?

R: Yes, yes. There was Kresge‟s. There was two of „em downtown. I don‟t remember the name of the other one. VanderZalm‟s, I believe it was, VanderZalm‟s and Kresge‟s.

I: And did you like going into those?

R: Oh, yes. It was always fun to go through the dimestores.

I: What made „em fun?

R: Because they had so many trinkets and things and we used to go to Muskegon to the dimestores a lot, too, just loved to go through them.

I: Did they have candy and things like that, too?

R: Oh, yes. Mum eh.

I: „Cause I can remember the one on Washington when I was younger, and I always liked going because they had candy, lots of candy.

R2: One whole side was candy, wasn‟t it?

I: Yeah.

R2: It was a big store.

R: Mum eh.

I: What about like soda fountains? Were there a lot of those in town that you would go to?

R: Well, there was at the dimestore, in Kresge‟s there was one, and I believe, doesn‟t Pfaff‟s Drugstore still have their soda fountain?

I: Yes they do. That‟s what I was wondering, if you grew up in that neighborhood if you.

R: Yes.

I: I used to hang out there.

R2: It wasn‟t Pfaff‟s then. What was the name of it then? Oh, golly.

16 R: Yeah, can‟t think of that name either.

R2: I remember Presley‟s down on the corner; Seventh and Washington were there for years and years and years.

R: Mum eh.

I: Oh, I remember what you told me about that one, we should get, the chicken coop, tell us about the chicken coop. [Laughter]

R2: On the corner of Jackson and Seventh Street.

R: Not quite on the corner. There was a house on the corner. It was right next door to that house, yeah. They kept chickens in there, and you could go there and pick out your live chicken, and then they would clean it for you while you waited.

I: Wow! That‟s a little different than today.

R: Yeah.

I: Picking out your meal. Would they cut it for you also if you wanted it in pieces?

R: Oh, sure, sure, uh eh.

R2: I remember walking over there when Uncle Martin lived in the old rooming house there.

R: Yeah.

R2: Used to walk around down there by the chicken coop. Didn‟t you have some friends that lived right behind there, Sieburghs (?) was it?

R: Yes. Well, they lived down on Jackson Street.

R2: On Jackson Street, and I used to go over there and play with the kids once in a while.

R: I think Bob Sieburgh (?) still lives in that house.

I: I think you‟re right „cause I had a friend who‟s a little older than me, and he was a Sieburgh, and he grew up in that house.

R: Mum eh. Peter?

I: Rob.

R: Oh, Rob. He was the oldest boy.

17 I: What about holidays, the way you celebrated them. Nowadays, I think, it‟s a real tradition. Everybody; when I was a kid, it was the TV „cause we‟d watch the different shows, but when you were growing up what can you remember about Christmas and other holidays that stands out?

R: Well, they were usually family days, of course. Family was always together.

I: And it probably wasn‟t so much commercial as it is now?

R: No, no, I don‟t think so. I can‟t remember very much about that anyway.

I: Okay. Remember any gifts or things that?

R: Oh, I can remember when I was real small; I told my mother that I didn‟t have to have a doll. I was getting too big. I didn‟t need a doll any more. [Laughter] But when the other girls, I had two younger sisters, and of course, they got a new doll, but my mother dressed my doll up in new clothes, any way, even if I didn‟t think I needed it [Laughter], and I was so tickled with it. [Laughter]

I: That‟s the way it is sometimes. When you see someone else is gonna have it, you want to have it, too. In school, you went to Ferry School? I think we talked about that.

R: I only went there a couple years, and then I went to Central School.

I: Okay, Central, at that time, was it the high school building?

R: Yes.

I: Okay. And did you go all the way through high school there?

R: No. My father died real young, and we had to help out at home.

I: So you didn‟t get to make it all the way through?

R: I had a couple brothers that went all the way through, and a sister, two sisters, but I didn‟t.

I: How do you rank in the family out of those?

R: I was the third. I had a sister and a brother older than me.

I: Okay.

R: And then I had, how many under me? Gerturde, Alice, Gerald and Buck, four under me, mum eh.

18 I: So you had the responsibility „cause you were older?

R: Yes.

R2: So what‟d you go, through 8th grade?

R: Yes.

R2: And where did you go to work?

R: I worked at Keller Pneumatic Tools during the war. I was only 16 years old when they started, they had to take girls in there because the men were all gone.

I: Mum eh.

R: And I worked there until, I think I was about 18, then I made gloves after that. That building on the corner of Seventh and Elliott was a glove factory.

I: Okay.

R: And we lived right next door.

I: Where was Keller‟s located when you worked there?

R: On Fulton Street, the 1500 block.

I: Fulton and Griffin, it‟s where, what it became, Gardner Denver?

R: Yes.

I: After a while?

R: Yes.

I: „Cause they made the toasters there before?

R: Yes.

R2: Camfield.

I: Because that is where my grandmother worked.

R: Camfields was down where Meijers is now, down in that neighborhood.

I: Yeah. They moved.

19 R2: Camfields was on the corner of Griffin and Fulton. That‟s where they made toasters.

R: Oh, yes, yes. Mum eh.

I: You‟re right. They were; they had the other building.

R2: They had the other building which eventually Oldbergs took over for their storage area warehouse. The basket factory was right behind where you lived, wasn‟t it?

R: Yes, mum eh.

I: What was that? The basket factory?

R: They made bushel baskets, all kinds of baskets.

I: And that was when you lived in Seventh Street was it?

R: That was before we lived there?

R2: It was right back where Dick Berg is now. We have some pictures somewhere of the basket factory.

R: We have?

R2: I saw one somewhere. We have some pictures of the old Peerless Novelty, well it was a group picture, some other stuff, too. I‟ve got it in storage over there somewhere. [Laughter]

I: Those are the kind of things, did you ever think, the museum would love to have copies of „em.

R2: Mum eh.

I: If they don‟t have something like that, and I‟m gonna check on the Centennial book you have.

R2: We could make a copy of that.

I: Yup.

R: I have a group pictures. There‟s one of „em right in the bottom drawer of the desk there.

R2: Of what?

R: I don‟t know. It‟s all rolled up. I‟ll get it in a minute, see [trails off, can‟t hear].

20

R2: You don‟t have to get it now, and I can get it.

R: It‟ll only take a minute if I can move.

I: So you worked in the glove factory during the war, but after the war, you were?

R: No, I worked at the Keller Pneumatic Tool during the war.

I: And then the glove factory?

R: Mum eh.

I: And then, when did you get married?

R: 1925.

I: Okay. Were you working then or not working?

R: I was working then, yes.

I: When you got married then, what‟d you do?

R: I worked for a couple years, I believe.

I: Then you started raising a family?

R: That‟s right.

I: And how many are in your family?

R: Just Ray and we lost one son when he was 26 years old, Jimmy.

I: You had two boys?

R: He was married. He married Lois Kuschke (?), her name was Lois Kuschke, that was brought up by the Miller family.

I: Okay.

R2: He had Cancer. He died in ‟54.

R: Yeah, ‟54.

I: I‟m sure that wasn‟t easy.

21 R: No, that wasn‟t easy. Lois is living in Florida now. She has a family.

I: They had no kids while he was alive?

R: No. That‟s right.

I: Do you have any grandchildren?

R: Three. [Laughter] Ray‟s the only son I got left, you know, and

I: Right.

R: He had three boys.

I: Right.

R: And I got three great grandchildren.

R2: Yup.

I: Oh, that‟s very good.

R: Mum eh. So we just had a party last week for one of „em that was 3 years old.

I: So you‟re a grandmother and a great grandma?

R: Yup, mum eh.

I: Which one do you like better? That‟s a trick question, I think. [Laughter from R & R2].

R: They‟re both a lot of fun.

I: I know a lot of people that like being grandparents.

R: Mum eh.

I: More than they do parents „cause it‟s easier.

R: Well, it‟s easier, you can spoil „em and then send „em home. [Laughter] Yeah, I enjoy all my kids and my grandchildren. Sometimes I think I don‟t see enough of „em, but they do the best they can.

I: …Grandkids, right?

R: That‟s right.

22 I: „Cause they start to get going, they always forget to check in and see how your grandma‟s doing.

R: They do pretty good though, don‟t they?

R2: Oh yeah. They do quite well for as busy as they all seem to be.

R: It‟s so busy nowadays they don‟t have time. When we were kids, we had more time than anything else.

I: And you played those games?

R: Yeah.

I: That we can‟t remember what they were, but you guys played „em.

R: Oh, I think about it, if I‟d think real hard, I would probably would come back to me how we played „em, but we had a lot of fun.

I: Were marbles anything like that?

R: Oh, yes, marbles, yes, jacks; the girls played jacks a lot. I don‟t know if you know what that is.

I: That‟s with those spinning jacks and a ball. I‟m not exactly sure how that works.

R: Well you threw the jacks and then you threw the ball up, and while the ball was bouncing, you had to quick, see how many jacks you could pick up.

I: And whoever grabbed the most was the winner?

R: Yup.

I: Okay. I know that kids played that when I was younger, but I don‟t know if I played it that much.

R: I asked somebody here a while ago if the kids still played jacks, and they said, “Sure they do.” I never see anybody, but they said they do.

I: The other one that has made a really big comeback is yoyos in the last four or five years.

R: Is that right?

I: Yep.

23 R2: It‟s just because of Tommy Smothers [Laughter].

I: Yeah, actually I think it‟s because there‟s a store downtown that started getting them in, and they started having kids come in with a, they‟d give them a bunch of different tricks on a piece of paper, and everything, and everytime they‟d come in and could do the trick, they‟d get a stamp.

R: Oh.

I: After you got „em all stamped, you got to pick a new yoyo or something.

R: Wow.

I: So I think they had a lot to do with it around here, but nationally, I think, yoyos are becoming popular again.

R2: We had our minister come to church one day with a yoyo, too. [Laughter]

R: He did?

R2: Oh, yeah. Something to do with the kids‟ sermon, I think.

R: Oh, uh eh. I see you have religion on here. I belong to Hope Reformed Church, right over here on the corner, well not on the corner any more. They built a new church in there.

I: That‟s convenient.

R: Mum eh.

I: Were you a member of that church all along or did you go somewhere else first?

R: No, I was always a member of First Reformed Church in town, but when we moved out here I moved my papers out here.

I: It was this church here then when you moved out here?

R: Yes.

R2: In fact, First Reformed Church was one of the founding churches for Hope. In fact, I just saw a picture of the first Hope Reformed Church in this book. It was an extension group that got together and started that little building over here.

R: They started Sunday School out in this area, and eventually, they built a little chapel over on the corner.

24 R2: They started Sunday School in this big log house down the road here, and at that time, it was a tavern. We had Sunday School down in the basement there Sunday mornings.

I: It was a tavern by day, and night?

R2: Yeah, see, all this area out here was resort, and all these people would come here, and all rooms upstairs and downstairs a big dance floor and everything else, and the house just a couple doors over here that was like a resort home. It had a whole bunch of small bedrooms and stuff in it, and down the road, well Dr. Boeve just tore the house down now, but that was another house that was basically for resort people and a whole lot small little bedrooms and you know, come down here and live [trails off, can‟t get]. This is a picture of the first Hope Church, on the corner of 152nd and Groesbeck, right over here.

I: So you really stayed with that same church, eh, you just went to other branches?

R: Mum eh, yeah.

I: One thing that when you said tavern came to mind, it‟s not really a tavern; did you ever go to the Fruitport Pavilion?

R: Oh, yes.

I: What did you do there?

R: Danced.

I: Okay, to what, what kind of music?

R: Well, they had bands that they brought in. When Jimmy was in high school, then the kids from high school used to go there a lot, and then they would have, tell me the name of some of those bands, can‟t you think of „em?

R2: Well, it used to be a lot of big name bands from Chicago.

R: Yeah. They had big name bands that would come in.

R2: If I had to say their name though right now.

I: Right. I knew that they had a lot of big name bands there, and it was big band dances. It was more ballroom type dancing.

R: But they didn‟t have those big bands there when I went. I just don‟t remember what kind of music they did have, but we used to go there.

25 R2: Well up until the time it burned down, they used to have big name bands.

I: And they had the house band which was Bob Waarner‟s band.

R: Oh, yes, uh eh. They play down at the Waterfront now.

I: Yep. His son has taken it over, and they‟re play on Wednesday „cause I can hear „em when I‟m at the museum.

R: We used to go there every Wednesday night, but I don‟t go anymore now. I used to love to go there.

I: We have in the museum right now a exhibit of Bob Waarner, different things from his days there, and the Pavilion was one of the big things, then he took the Waterfront over, but back then, too, it seems like, why did everybody dance compared to today we don‟t, people my age, don‟t know how to dance formally like they did.

R: No they don‟t.

R2: See the trend somewheres got away from that, and now the kids just go and they mingle or they cruise or whatever, the day of the automobile took over.

R: They don‟t have to have a partner to dance anymore it seems.

I: What about the other thing I‟m wondering is, did dance classes have anything to do with it? Did you have dance in school?

R: No, I didn‟t.

I: Some people I‟ve talked to have actually said they had to take it.

R: Oh.

I: So they learned big band dancing.

R: I never knew they had dance in school.

I: That probably was.

R: After my time.

I: Yeah, „cause it was Bob Waarner on his tape that I was listening to, where he talked about that was one of the changes that happened.

R: Oh, uh eh.

26 I: Besides the other kinds of music like bebop that got taken over, but nowadays, there‟s actually a resurgent, a lot of people, younger adults are going back and trying to learn ballroom dancing, and so you were at the Pavilion. What about The Barn in downtown Grand Haven?

R: I never went there.

I: That was after?

R: That was after, yeah. They did a lot of roller skating there. Didn‟t I take you down there?

R2: Yup.

R: Mum eh.

R2: I remember the day that burned.

R: Oh yeah.

R2: I was quite young then.

I: Yeah, that was a big fire. A lot of people remember that, something to do. What about the beach? Was there anything you did around there as they called it The Oval?

R: Well, I used to go out there once a while, but I never cared too much about the sand. I didn‟t care to sit in the sand and the sun, but we would take, there was a streetcar that ran during the summer months from the corner of Washington and Third Street, it was an open car, and that ran out back and forth, out to the lake and back all the time.

I: There was another resort like pavilion out there, too, wasn‟t there?

R: Yes, there was a pavilion. Mum eh.

I: Did you ever go out there?

R: I danced there a few times, mum eh.

I: And that car went down there was no road there yet was there when you took the cable car out there?

R: No, that‟s right. There was no road. They had an oval out there where the street car turned around on the oval and came back.

I: That‟s why it‟s got the name, The Oval probably.

27 R: Mum eh.

R2: A lot of places, there weren‟t any roads then.

R: Yeah, that‟s right.

R2: We lived out on the 1300 block of Colfax Street, and there was no road at all there.

R: No.

R2: There were ruts coming in on an angle off of Griffin Street, to make it to our house.

R: No sewer or water either.

R2: Nothing.

R: When we first moved out there. That was in 1926.

R2: Warbers delivered milk with their horse and buggy?

R: Yeah.

R2: See, things have modernized in a hurry „cause I remember this stuff. [Laughter].

I: And that‟s totally changed „cause there were a lot of dairies in Grand Haven at one point, weren‟t there?

R2: Oh yes.

R: Warbers, and there was another Warbers, over on

R2: Two Warbers, yeah, was it Emil Warbers over on Beach Street.

R: Mum eh.

R2: Of course, Klemple‟s, Schneiders.

R: Mum eh.

R2: Voss.

R: You can remember them better than I can.

R2: Sanitary Dairy down town. That was just in Grand Haven.

28 I: One of the grandkids of one of those milk companies tried a couple years ago to come back with delivering milk, made it for a little while, I think the times have just changed too much for people.

R2: Well, ut got away from it completely for too long.

I: And then back in the days, those early days when you had to go get groceries, you didn‟t run over to Meijers I bet did you?

R: Oh, no!

I: What did you guys do?

R: Well, Strahsburg had a market, and groceries, well Smith‟s Grocery and Strahsburg‟s Market were in the.

R2: 1300 block of Washington.

R: 1300 block of Washington, mum eh.

R2: You used to send me over to Mastenbrook‟s gas station, pick up a loaf of bread.

R: Oh yes.

R2: Well, bread was a nickel?

R: Something like that.

R2: Nickel or six cents.

I: So it was really a lot [More than one talking]

R: John Casemier‟s started, well Cook‟s Hardware was the first building, I think, that, no sweet shop, a little sweet shop was built in that block where Cook‟s Hardware is now.

I: Mum eh.

R: That was the first building that went up there.

R2: Brownie‟s Sweet Shop.

R: Yeah, that‟s right. Eventually all these other buildings went up.

I: But then obviously because people weren‟t as mobile with cars and things, there were a lot more neighborhood grocery type stores.

29 R: Well, we lived out there on Colfax Street in the 1300 block, and we‟d always walk to town, think nothing of it.

I: Yeah. Was there anything to the south of Colfax at that time?

R2: The Griffin Street went out. It was gravel all the way out, and there were very few houses out that way. There were, I‟d say, probably a dozen houses scattered.

I: And then out to Robbins Road, I‟ve heard was a lot of celery farms.

R: Yes.

I: We were talking about he celery fields, and they were all along the south side of Griffin and you mentioned about the Junior High.

R2: Well, the Junior High was nothing but big field. I don‟t know if they used it for pasteurland or whatever, but Warbers owned some of that land, and I used to hang around with Bill Warber quite a bit, and we used to have model airplanes back in those days then, we‟d go out there and fly „em, a little strip up there, we‟d get caught in the running.

I: When did you graduate high school then?

R2: In 1954.

I: Okay, so what did you do? What were your fun things? We heard some of what your mom‟s was [Laughter]. I know your mom‟s here. I don‟t know if you want to share everything. [More laughter]

R: He went in service.

R2: We used to do the same thing that they used to do, you know, meet on the street corner of Woodlawn and Griffin down there, with Fred Bruin (?), Wally Bessinger and Gerry DeWitt, Morris Sterser(?), myself, of course, there was a few others, and she told you a little while ago a little secret, they used to go over somebody‟s grape patch, snitch some grapes, [Laughter] and we used to do the same thing. [Laughter]

R: That man, he knew us kids, and he didn‟t care. He made believe that he was getting angry with us, but he really didn‟t care „cause we didn‟t ruin his patch or anything. We just took a few grapes.

I: Right.

R2: Then there was an empty lot right on the corner right across, right on the same corner; we used to play ball there a lot. In wintertime, of course, there was golf back of Warbers, there was a nice hill out there that you could ski on it, sled on it, the hill over

30 on, called the Jensen Hill, it was back in there where, well I guess where the Clover Bar is, there‟s a hill right back there. We used to go over there a lot.

R: Well, I was telling you about the bobsled that my brother had, then we‟d go sliding, but I wouldn‟t ride on it. I couldn‟t slide down hill. Everybody else would jump on the bobsled and go down the hill, but I‟d stand there and watch „em.

R2: Didn‟t you say something about Uncle Orie?

R: Oh, yes. That‟s, there‟s a bob sled down in the museum, and that was built by my husband‟s two uncles.

I: Was it really? That thing must fit about 15, 20 people, it looked like?

R2: Big. [More than one talking]

R: They used to go up on Second Street Hill, and they‟d slide way down to the river „cause my husband said, he rode on it many a time, and they‟d have somebody down on the corner downtown to stop the traffic.

I: Probably couldn‟t do that today. [Laughter] When I saw that picture, I thought it was Second Street „cause I recognized one of the houses that is still there.

R: Uh eh.

I: Did they get all the way over to the river?

R: Yeah, they‟d go way to the river.

I: Up that hill, wow, you got some momentum going then.

R: Mum eh.

I: How did they get that sled going, do you remember that? Did everybody sit on it or did they?

R: There would be always one that would give it a good push, and they‟d have to hop on. If they got left, they got left, but they‟d usually hop on.

I: Kind of like a bobsled then?

R: Mum eh.

I: They had to chase it down.

R: Mum eh.

31

R2: I remember seeing that bobsled in Uncle John‟s garage.

R: Mum eh.

R2: When I was a little kid.

I: That looks like fun.

R2: My dad got into commercial fishing for a few years, too.

R: I read the note they had on that when I was down in the museum, and there was something on there that wasn‟t just right, but I don‟t remember what it was any more now, but I know they built it.

R2: Back in the late „40s Dad did the commercial fishing with the Elvin Brothers, and well, they both worked at VanZylen Lumber, and then the one brother would take the summer off and go fishing. Of course, Dad was doing it as a fill in in between working his regular job. I must have been, what, 7, 8 years old at that time?

R: You weren‟t very old when they put you on shore „cause it got too rough out there.

R2: Basically speaking, I spent a lot of rough times out there on that big lake with them guys. Boy, they had no sense of fear. They had work to do.

R: If the sky was red in the morning, they never went out.

R2: That‟s true.

R: They learned that the hard way.

I: How was that?

R: Well, they went out and got caught in a storm.

R2: Red sky in the morning, sailor‟s take warning.

I: I knew that.

R: That‟s true.

R2: Believe in it.

I: Yeah. If they got caught, then they made it back in, so they‟re kind of.

32 R: That one time they put Ray on shore across the river. They told you to walk and wait somewhere along the way for them.

R2: I walked all the way back. It was about five miles.

R: They had a rough time coming in I guess.

R2: We got caught out there one day. We were lifting net, all we had was like a 20 foot homemade rowboat, you might say, with the sides real deep, and we were pulling nets in the fall of the year, we got caught out there in a storm, and three of us in the boat plus that whole big wet net, we were only about a foot out of the water in the first place, and we got caught in the storm. Oh boy! We got in. [Laughter]

R: We ate a lot of fish those days, white fish.

I: It sounds like you must have liked fish „cause you had it during the Depression.

R: Oh, we did. I still like fish. Ray fishes down here, and he brings nearly all of „em to me, I believe.

R2: Not all of „em. I don‟t tell those secrets.

R: [Laughter] No, but we like fish. When we first moved out here, when Dad would come home from work, we‟d have our dinner and go fishing every night. We just loved it. You could catch a lot of nice big Bluegills in those days, but I don‟t know where they went. They‟re not there any more.

R2: I know times have changed, and I think the pollution has not helped things a bit.

R: Mum eh.

R2: And there was about a ten year span where some of the people around here got together and had to bayous sprayed for algae and stuff. It took all the food away from the fish. They‟re slowly making a recovery. Of course, the weeds are, too, it‟s the fish food.

I: Yeah.

R2: They feed off of those, so; can‟t have everything. If you want fish, you‟re gonna have to have weeds.

I: You guys moved out here in?

R: ‟51.

I: ‟51. What was it like in the winter to get back into Grand Haven?

33 R: It wasn‟t too much of a problem, was it?

R2: The roads were generally plowed, but they weren‟t plowed right down to the pavement. In the spring when it started breaking up, there might be a foot of snow packed on the roads. It was kind of rough going „til it got all the way.

I: And the bridge was obviously out here by then.

R2: A bridge was there, not this one, but it‟s been rebuilt. They rebuilt that in what, ‟60?

R: I don‟t remember the year. I know we had to drive way around this way.

R2: Probably about in ‟60 or ‟62 „cause I remember that they did it. Both of the bridges; Millhouse too.

I: Do you remember what the old one looked like or what it was?

R2: It was smaller, and just an angle iron frame for side rails, nothing elaborate like this, just wide enough for two cars to pass. That‟s the way all the bridges were out here then, too. Of course, at that time, 152nd, it might be closed for two or three weeks before the county would even bother to open up. There was only a couple houses out there. Now, it snows now, they‟re out there first thing. All those big, new houses out there, it‟s a top priority road now.

R: It‟s really changed since we came out here in ‟51.

I: I can see that just driving down the road.

R: Oh, yes.

I: I can see which houses are older and have been here, and that haven‟t been remodeled.

R: There aren‟t many empty spaces any more. There‟s one lot right back here, and then down there where Virginia and Bill Weaver own that woods on the other side of the road down there. There‟s quite a space there it isn‟t there?

R2: Yeah.

I: Now is it Mangleson‟s that used to be over here, and is over there?

R: Mum eh.

R2: It‟s Wesco now.

34 I: Okay. Do you have anything from when you were younger that you remember about going there? I have some friends that grew up in this area, and they always talked about that.

R: We didn‟t go there too much, did we?

R2: Well, yeah, we bought a lot of meat there before we even moved out here, [inaudible]

R: Oh, yeah, I almost forgot that.

R2: And almost went to work there one time, but I changed my mind, but Bill Schuitema had that store next to him

R: The Varieties.

R2: The Variety Store, and you could go there and buy anything, fireworks or car bombs or anything you wanted, used to have a lot of fun with old Bill. He was a pretty decent guy.

I: When his laws changed, I‟m sure it must sound like some of his business must have went away, legal business.

R2: Well, Bill has been long out of that business. In fact, I think there‟s an antique store there now. Yeah, there is. Fits right in.

I: Well, we got into, Ray, a little bit of your high school days, but what can you remember besides hanging out at the street corner kind of things. Was the beach a big deal then or not?

R2: Yeah, the beach was getting to be a big deal in the „50s. It was getting more popular all the time, of course. It was shortly thereafter that they started expanding and knocking the dunes down around there, and I always liked it better when they had the sand dunes along there, but needing more space, they eventually got „em all knocked down. I didn‟t spend an elaborate amount of time out there, a certain amount, used to like to go fishing off the pier. We used to go out and pitch our big old tent, and stay out there for a couple weeks at a time, and go fishing every day.

R: I can remember when you kids were young; we used to go out Saturday morning for breakfast. There wasn‟t hardly any people on the beach for breakfast so that‟s when we would go and take our breakfast out there, and you kids would go in swimming and play on the swings, had everything to ourselves.

I: I wouldn‟t be able to do that today on a Saturday.

R: No.

35 I: You could do it; you wouldn‟t be the only one there.

R2: Yeah.

I: Then were you in, what high school building were you in?

R2: I was graduated first class out of the, which is now an extinct high school. [Laughter]

I: Right. The old, new high school.

R & R2: Yeah.

R2: The old, new high school. I was trying to figure out how to describe it. I was in the first class to graduate.

I: The one on Cutler. So it was brand new when you were in it?

R2: Brand new, yup. Brand new and overcrowded.

R: Mum eh.

I: I can tell you it didn‟t change a whole lot over the years, I don‟t think.

R2: I don‟t think so.

I: They added a little bit on, but they change it a whole lot.

R: What year did you graduate?

I: 1980. First class of the eighties.

R & R2: Mum eh.

R2: Times have changed a whole lot. The high school isn‟t even in town any more.

I: Yes, in the township, pretty soon, they‟re gonna try to make that a city, I think to get some taxes out of it.

R: It‟s larger than the city now.

I: Yeah.

R2: The Township is really growing, which is fine.

R: It‟s the only way they can go, south.

36 I: Yeah, there‟s not too much room to go west.

R: Nope.

R2: As long as Grand Haven stays over there, and leaves the township alone, that‟s the big thing.

R: Mum eh.

R2: That‟s why we moved out here. I hate to move out any further.

R: We like it out here.

R2: Peaceful, quiet, you haven‟t heard anything.

R: Since this one‟s busy, it isn‟t so quiet any more. The jet skis come in the bayou here now. They‟re pretty noisy, and there‟s a lot of skiing. Saturdays and Sundays is their big day, and the big boats can‟t get under the bridge this year.

R2: That‟s a blessing.

R: Yeah.

I: The water‟s too high?

R2: The water‟s too high. Oh yeah, we‟ve had some big cigar boats coming in here. They‟re noisy, number 1, and

R: Churning up the water.

I: Yeah, I don‟t know why they want to be I the river. That‟s really a lake boat.

R2: Lake Michigan is the place for them.

R: Well, they just have to come and look around.

R2: We put up with them. Yeah, the growth right in this immediate area, I used to walk out from the house with the gun in my hand and go hunting. You can‟t very well do that any more.

I: No.

R2: Of course, my dad used to do that when we lived on Colfax Street.

I: He‟d walk south?

37 R2: He‟d walk south, and he said by the time he got to Robbins Road and back, he had his limit of rabbits. That was the Depression days.

I: When he was fishing and then he was counting the rabbits. So you guys did all right.

R2: Yeah, we got through it. I don‟t remember, but I guess I was around, wasn‟t I?

R: Oh, I think you were alright.

I: What did you hunt out here?

R2: Deer mostly. In fact, this morning I was standing out by the road talking to Ernie.

R: Mum eh.

R2: And a deer come right up through Ron‟s yard.

R: It did?

R2: It was right on the other side of the road from us.

R: Well

R2: Yeah.

R: Looking for Ernie‟s garden. He used to have a big garden back there and the deer would eat half of it up.

R2: Probably.

R: One morning I got up last year, and two of „em were trotting down the road just as nice as you please.

R2: Oh, yeah. I seen deer here, right here quite often.

R: They swim over from the island out here, don‟t they?

R2: Yeah, there‟s quite a few deer on the island

I: That‟s interesting. I‟ve seen them behind Mulligan‟s Hollow, behind like the baseball field.

R: Mum eh.

I: But I couldn‟t figure out where they were coming from the first time I saw them there. They were just strutting up that sand hill.

38

R2: Yeah. They could have swum the channel somewhere along the line. There‟s quite a few deer on the other side, too, the North Shore side. Used to work Construction Aggregates. Everybody‟s in the same boat, deer over there all the time, and fox.

I: Well, unless you guys can think of something else you want to add, I think you guys did a great job. We got quite a bit of information from you. Let me turn the tape off.

R2: Well, she can get going on a lot of stories [She laughs] about all the stores of yesteryear down along Second Street, Third Street, mostly Third Street, I think, some of the old meat markets that were down there, and.

R: Old Klaver‟s Meat Market down there on the corner of Third and Elliott I believe. You probably don‟t even know that store.

R2: I remember it faintly, I remember going to Fett Brothers, and Dad used to go down there and buy some meat.

R: Yeah.

R2: That‟s where Did‟s Deli is now.

R: Oh yes, mum eh.

I: That‟s right by where I live right now.

R: Oh do you?

I: Yeah. I live on Sixth.

R2: Mum eh.

I: In those days, when you say meat market, did they have it all cooled, or did they have refrigeration yet?

R2: They mostly had „em hanging. You could go in and order what you wanted, they‟d cut it for you.

R: They had a cooler, what they called cooler, I remember Strahsburg‟s Market anyway, they‟d always walk in that cooler, and cut a piece of meat for you, but.

R2: Yeah.

I: And basically you were getting it for that day?

39 R: Yeah, oh yeah. You had to buy your stuff every day. Well, in fact, they used to deliver every day. They used to come to the house, well, you‟d order your meat, and they‟d bring it to the house, and take the order for the next day.

R2: You gotta remember that it wasn‟t that many years ago when they were still delivering ice to all the people that had ice boxes.

I: That‟s what I was getting at. I wondered how if you had refrigeration to keep some of that stuff more than a day.

R: No, they delivered the ice.

R2: We were fortunate to have a refrigerator, but I remember, Jim‟s friend, Eddie Fosheim used to deliver ice.

R: Oh, you went with him.

R2: I was what, quite young?

R: Yeah, mum eh.

R2: Probably before I was 10 years old, around 10 years old. He used to stop by, and pick me up, and I‟d ride along with him and deliver ice.

R: Mum eh.

R2: They had quite a few trucks delivering ice. You know, that‟s more than 50 years ago.

I: In the museum, they still have some of those old ice contraptions down there.

R2: Yeah. We had a nice one that was left here when we bought the old cottage, but it‟s gone.

R: Yup.

R2: Plus a whole lot of other things.

I: Back in those days when you got your meat everyday for your meal, you‟d just pop that in the microwave I bet, huh?

R2: Sure thing. You‟d put it in the cooker, you know the old stoves; they had that cooker set right down in the stove. You‟d put it in there, and hope you didn‟t forget it because

R: I forgot it one time.

R2: Or remember to turn it down before you go to church on Sunday morning.

40

R: Yeah, but one time you came home from school, and I had forgotten to turn it down.

R2: Came home from school to a house that was smokin‟. I thought; I knew exactly what it was. I grabbed a couple old rags and jerked it up, and took it outside.

R: He knew where I was so he called me and told me. I was at my sister‟s, and she couldn‟t believe that you would do that. She couldn‟t think about one of her kids knowing enough to take that cooker out of there and throwing it outdoors.

R2: See it had happened before. I watched Dad do it. [Laughter]

R: Just twice. That‟s all.

R2: That was enough. The bottom was getting pretty warped.

R: We didn‟t have a roast for our Sunday dinner that day. One time we were sitting in church, and Dad whispered to me, “Did you turn the cooker down?” And I said, “No, did you turn it down?” He says, “I don‟t remember.” He got up and went home [Laughter], and it wasn‟t turned down. Well, you forget, that‟s not good.

R2: What automobile was that, they made trucks downtown didn‟t they?

R: Make trucks? I don‟t remember that.

R2: What‟s the name of that place?

I: Hamilton?

R2: Hamilton.

R: Oh.

I: The Apex it was called.

R2: Apex truck.

R: I don‟t remember that.

R2: You don‟t remember that?

R: No.

R2: Oh boy. What happened to your memory?

41 I: You‟ll have to go to the parade this year „cause the museum owns one. It‟s in the parade every year.

R: Oh really?

I: Although they‟re not for sure that it‟s authentic, the way it would have been back then. There‟s some things on it they‟re not positive, but they, whoever they bought it from, they think, might have made some modifications that changed it, but that was actually the Panhard before there was another, there was Panhard and then Apex…

R: Oh.

R2: Yeah.

I: Same company though, and it was in the building where the old Gardner Denver building, where you worked, they were in there first. In fact, they may have built that building to produced that truck there.

R: When I worked there, I worked in the tool crib, I had, just like working in a store, you know, I handed out the tools, the men would come with a slip of paper, what tool they needed, and I‟d have to give it to them, and give them a slip to make sure they brought it back. It was an easy job.

I: What was it like during the war, working, you were a teenager, but were there a lot of women in there?

R: Oh, yes. Quite a few girls worked there, and they made us wear those uniforms, the same color as the men‟s you know; only they were bloomer type. The men always laughed at us and made fun of us, called us “Bloomer girls”. [Laughter] I don‟t know why we had to wear those uniforms. Of course, it was during the war.

I: Was it a factory looking uniform or?

R: Well, just a nice light brown uniform, just plain, real plain, and then I worked in the Inspection Department for a while, too. Some of the girls worked on machines, but I never worked on a machine.

I: When you inspected, what did you do with that job?

R: Well, I had to learn to read a mychrometer, and every little piece had to be measured, kind of a tedious job, but it was easy.

I: Did you have to go back out in the shop though if something wasn‟t right and tell „em that or did somebody else do that?

R: No, the boss took care of it.

42

I: I was just wondering if they‟d send you out there that would be a tough job.

R: No.

R2: Not the bloomer girls. [Laughter]

I: Yeah, they wouldn‟t give them that responsibility.

R: There was one man, he was a boss there, he wasn‟t our boss, but he worked right near us, and we could, he talked kind of broken English, and he‟d always say to the girls, “Many hands make like work, light work,” I can still hear him say that, “Many hands make light work.”

I: It‟s funny how we remember little things from where we worked.

R: Mum eh.

I: Because working in retail I remember, “You got time to lean, you got time to clean.” [Laughter]

R2: Oh yeah. [More than one speaking]

I: Go ahead.

R: Well, I was just gonna say, the superintendent of the shop took us girls all out for dinner for Christmas a couple weeks before Christmas. He took us to the Gildner Hotel for dinner, and then he rented the bowling alley that was downtown then. They had three lanes, I believe, and we bowled.

R2: Upstairs?

R: No, I don‟t think it was upstairs. I know it was right down there, right downtown, there were only three lanes.

R2: The Michigan Rag is there now.

R: Oh. And of course, the men, they thought that was funny, you know, that us girls could have those alleys all by ourself. They all stood around there laughing at us and waiting for us to get through so they could have the alleys, but we had fun. That was the only time I ever bowled. I would have bowled more, but we couldn‟t afford it.

I: The other thing I was thinking was since when you were younger to now, how‟s it changed like with clothing, to not necessarily what they look like, but how, where you would go to get them, I mean, did you start out making your own stuff, or?

43 R: I did all my own sewing, made the children‟s clothes, even the boys. I made their overcoats and everything.

R2: There sits, still the same sewing machine.

R: Yeah, I never wanted an electric machine. I never got one. I liked my treble machine. We bought that the second year we were married and it still runs. Needs a new belt right now, I think, though.

R2: Does it? You gonna use this if I put a belt on it?

R: Well, I was mending something a while ago, and it started running real slow, and I took a hold of the belt and snapped it, and it was loose.

I: So you made your own clothes, but then eventually you started going to stores to buy „em?

R: Yes, mum eh.

I: Probably when you were growing up it was more people were making their own clothes more than.

R: Yes.

I: More than buying „em at the store.

R: Yes, a lot of people sewed in those days.

I: Yeah, or cottage industries where they‟d sell it out of their house, maybe.

R: Mum eh.

I: Maybe a couple extra ones. Not as instant as we have everything today.

R2: You surely did love to sew.

R: Oh yes, for International Aid, I opened my house up for sewing meetings, and sometimes we had eight ladies here at a time. We‟d have a table in the other room. We made 50 quilts that one winter for International Aid, not large quilts, they were for cribs and cots; you know that size. They went to the orphanages.

R2: You did that for quite a few years.

R: Yeah, mum eh. It was a lot of fun.

I: Was 50 the highest you guys had or was that just how much you normally made?

44

R: That was the highest.

I: Okay. You‟d make them every year for quite a while?

R: Mum eh.

R2: You only did that for about 15, 18 years.

R: Oh, a long, long time.

R2: Maybe more.

R: It dwindled down. A few of the women passed away. It kind of dwindled down to about three of us. I think we‟re the last three. Minnie Haner and Kay Cook and I. Finally, we gave up all together.

R2: Gave up what, about five years ago?

R: [Laughter] Oh, a little longer than that I guess. Minnie‟s been gone that long, I believe, hasn‟t she?

R2: Yeah, I think so. It kept them girls busy though.

I: Yup.

R2: Kept „em out of my hair. [Laughter]

R: People would give us material. We never had to buy anything. People caught on to what we were doing, and they‟d give us material.

I: That‟s all you need for a quilt.

R: Mum eh.

I: Doesn‟t have to match.

R: Have quilt blocks, and they‟d get sold together, and we‟d sit around the table and stitched „em all by hand around the outside.

R2: Now she‟s making mittens and hats.

R: Yeah, I still do.

R2: Doilies.

45 R: A lot of crocheting, and I knit a little bit yet, but not too much. I‟d rather crochet. It goes faster. Don‟t have the patience I guess anymore. I got about 20 pair of mittens ready for the bazaar. What they don‟t sell at the bazaar will go to the mitten tree. They have a mitten tree at the bookstore.

I: I was wondering if that‟s what you did with some of „em.

R: Yeah. They don‟t sell too many at the bazaar, but I have to make a donation, so I let „em take „em over there.

I: Where‟s the bazaar.

R: At Hope Church. We always have that in October. This year, I guess, the Methodists have a bazaar, and then next year Presbyterian has it again. They take turns.

R2: They take turns, yeah.

R: They have big bazaars. Ours out here isn‟t so big, but they have a lunch at noon. I like to go over with my friends and have lunch there, but I don‟t do much sewing on the machine any more. My back don‟t like me to sit there. [Son laughs]

I: So that‟s a thread and needle, is that what you use?

R: Oh, you mean sewing by hand?

I: Yes.

R: Yeah, well all I do is the mending that way.

I: What about back in the days, we talked about how you did all your own sewing, but what about ironing? Was that a big chore that you?

R: It was for me „cause I didn‟t like to iron. [Laughter]

I: That‟s what I was wondering.

R: Yeah, but I always did my ironing. I would rather wash dishes than iron.

R2: She was lucky to have blue collar workers around so it didn‟t matter.

I: That‟s what I was wondering about, shirts having to be starched and stuff like that.

R: Oh, I did a lot of ironing. My grandma had three old bachelors living with her. My uncles, three of „em weren‟t married, and I did her washing for her for a long time, and then I‟d have 16 shirts in the wash sometimes. I ironed „em all by hand.

46 I: I don‟t envy that.

R: But my mother taught me how to iron shirts „cause she; after my father passed away, she worked in the laundry for a while, and she taught me how to iron shirts in a real easy way, and it wasn‟t too hard after she showed me how to do it that way.

I: What did you wash them in back then? How did you do the wash?

R: We had washing machines. Well, I always had a washing machine. I was thinking about one time when I was scrubbing them on the board, but that is when we had water in our basement. You probably don‟t remember that, but out there on Colfax Street before they put water and sewer in, the water came up in our basement. We couldn‟t even have a fire in our furnace that one year. We had a big cookstove in the basement, and the men moved it up in our kitchen, and on Monday morning, they‟d bring the washtubs up and the bench, you know, and I had to scrub it by hand for a few times. That wasn‟t easy.

I: No. They have that exhibit at the museum, and it doesn‟t look like easy work.

R: But I can remember before my mother, before people had washing machines, and my mother did the whole washing for seven kids on the washboard. That was awful hard, but she wasn‟t the only one, of course, and there were a lot of people that had to do it that way.

R2: Means of survival. We used to do a lot of things.

R: I can remember when, well we lived in Rockford until I was about 10 years old, and my brother, Fred, had a paper route. He was only two years older than me, and we were awful little kids, but I‟d go with him, and there was a woods that we had to go through to cut through to that one street. Two people lived up there, and we had to bring the paper up to them, and we‟d walk through that woods with our arms around each other because there was an owl in the woods that would hoot at us, and it scared us to death! [Laughter]

I: I‟ve been attacked with my paper routes with dogs before, but never an owl. What was Rockford like then? That must not have been very popular.

R: Oh, just a very small town, very small. There wasn‟t a, well, my father worked in the shoe factory, and it was across the river from where we lived, and so in the wintertime, he‟d walk across the ice, and he was coming home from work this one night, and he didn‟t know the ice had melted during the day and he fell in. Well, he scrambled out and got back to the factory, and the night watchman was there, and found something dry to put on him, and he had to walk all around through town to get home, and I was telling your kids about it one time, and one of „em said, “Well, why didn‟t somebody take him home?” I says, “With what?” They said, “Well, with a car.” I said, “There wasn‟t a car in the town.” [Laughter] They couldn‟t believe that.

I: At least he got some dry clothes, [too quiet to pick up.]

47

R: My mother said, she thinks they had burlap bags tied around his legs. She couldn‟t quite remember herself.

I: Do you remember what shoe company, that wasn‟t Wolverine by chance, was it then?

R: Probably was. Isn‟t it still Wolverine?

I: Yep, I think it is, and it‟s in Rockford.

R: Probably was.

R2: Been there forever.

R: Yeah, I was about 10 years old when they came back to Grand Haven. They went there when they were married „cause his brother lived there, and he wanted them to come there so my mother, well, I was the third child, but I was about 10 years old when they came back to Grand Haven, and then at that time on the corner of Washington and Seventh Street, there was a bear cage, right alongside of the railroad track there, and there were real live bears in there, and when we were, my father came to Grand Haven first because he wasn‟t well. He had a growth on his spine. His folks wanted to take him to this specialist in Muskegon, so then when my mother and us kids came why he was standing by the bear cage waiting for us. He couldn‟t even walk to the depot. He couldn‟t wait „til us kids got there to show us those bears.

I: Was that by where VerDuin‟s is now?

R: Yes.

I: „Cause I heard that on some other, one of the other tapes that I was listening to.

R: Mum eh.

I: What was the purpose of it though?

R: I don‟t know. Kammeraads lived there. There was a house there, and Kammeraad‟s Saloon was right back of their house, and they had this cage with the bears, but I don‟t know why.

R2: Attraction.

I: Yeah. People get rowdy.

R2: Yeah.

48 R: There was a saloon there, and there was a saloon on the corner of Fulton and Seventh, and then Pete Kooiman‟s was down on Third Street. Well, once upon a time they said there were 13 saloons in Grand Haven, and 13 churches. That was many long years ago.

R2: Balance.

I: Yeah.

R: Mum eh. That was true.

I: Yeah. I know there was one way out here in the „30s or „40s, further out yet though.

R2: Jack Jungle?

R: Oh yeah. That‟s right. Jack Jungle. Gary VanDongen wife‟s folks run that.

R2: Yep.

R: Did you know any of the VanDongens?

I: Yes. Chuck VanDongen was a year older than me.

R: Yeah.

I: Still is a year older.

R: His father was my brother.

I: Okay. In fact then I met, it was a volunteer, and I think it was, does he have sisters that would be quite a bit older than him like 15, 20 years?

R2: Yeah.

R: Yeah.

I: Okay. Yeah, one of his sisters volunteers at the museum, too.

R2: Delores?

I: Yeah. She went to high school with my dad.

R2: Yup.

R: I didn‟t know she volunteered there.

I: Does she volunteer or, they had a thing for the Salvation Army, so she was in there.

49

R: Oh, she works for the Salvation Army.

I: So that‟s what it was.

R: Yeah.

I: …So many volunteers…

R: Very, very heavy person.

I: Yeah.

R: Mum eh. She had five brothers, didn‟t she?

R2: Five brothers.

I: Big family.

R2: Yeah.

R: Jean and Barb are both retired now, too.

R2: Are they?

R: Mum eh. I just talked with Delores last night. She called me, and she said they both retired.

R2: They were talking about it.

R: That‟s good. He retired, too. Sitting around here doing nothing.

R2: I‟m not sitting around. [Laughter]

I: Probably more busy now that he‟s retired. That is what I usually hear.

R2: Yeah. That‟s right.

I: Where did you retire from?

R2: Consumers Power.

R: Putting in a new driveway.

R2: I work construction, heavy equipment the last 30 years. I was ready to quit.

50 I: Yeah.

R: I can‟t believe how young they are when they retire nowadays „cause there was no retirement years ago, and if my father had lived he would have just worked and worked and worked like all the other men did. He died real young. He was only 47. It‟s funny now. At that time, I thought he was an old man, and now look how young that is. He was sick a long time.

R2: See before all the people started migrating into this town, why prêt near half or three quarters of the town was probably relation to her being that her mother was a Keift, and

R: The VanDongens.

R2: Between the Keifts and the VanDongens, I mean population was spreading fast in Grand Haven.

R: Yeah. Well, even now, they‟ll be talking about somebody, and I‟ll say, “Oh, that‟s my cousin.” “Oh my gosh! We can‟t talk about anybody any more. Everybody‟s her cousin.”

R2: I‟ve been caught a lot of times. People I had no idea they were any relation. Well, you know, we go way back. Yeah sure. “It has something to do with Keift.” “Yeah, it does.”

I: Yeah, „cause your parents would had to have been born, they were born here in Grand Haven, right?

R: Yes.

I: They must have been born in the „80s, 1880s, around there?

R: Must have been, yeah.

I: Grand Haven was only 50 years old then.

R: Mum eh.

I: So, yeah, they were here early. Now did your great grandparents live in Grand Haven when they came over from the Netherlands or did they live somewhere else or do you not know?

R: You said great grandparents?

I: Well, your grandparents.

R: Both of „em, the Keifts and the VanDongens both came over from the Netherlands.

51 I: And did they come here?

R: To Grand Haven, yeah, right to Grand Haven, as far as I know anyway.

I: Then they would have been here real close to when Grand Haven was forming?

R: Oh yes, uh eh. My Grandpa VanDongen was a contractor. I think he built the Challenge Machine Shop.

R2: I heard that before.

R: He built a lot of buildings in Grand Haven. My Grandpa Keift was a celery farmer.

R2: Used to be a lot of celery grown.

I: Yeah.

R: A lot of celery farmers around. They lived out in Robinson for a while. Then they came in and lived on Fulton Street, and there was all celery fields back of their house out on Fulton Street there.

R2: Yeah.

I: I can remember barely that there was one when I was younger still on that corner of Fulton and

R: Yes.

I: Fulton and Ferry it was, yeah.

R: That was my grandfather‟s brother that owned that.

R2: Yeah, that whole section back there was celery farm. The shops started building over on Griffin Street side. Of course, they had celery land.

I: Yeah.

R2: That was the start of it.

I: Yeah.

R2: Well, we covered a lot of ground.

I: Yes we did. For someone who didn‟t think she had much to say, she told us quite a bit [Laughter], and I thank you for that.

52 R: Well, it wasn‟t as bad as I thought it would be.

53