non-payment situation requires enor- mous mass campaigning: petitioning, demonstrations, activities, to heighten the awareness of the Scottish nation on Grasping the question. If all those things are sufficiently well done, then non- payment can be a serious possible option within a big, big campaign. The Thistle The other thing I think is very interesting - and perhaps the reason A Roundtable Discussion for some of the splits and divisions - is the question of devolution, which is The Scottish nation is implacably anti-Thatcherite. now much more sharply focused, pre- But it remains politically bound to Westminster. cisely because of the schism that's taking place over the poll tax cam- Where can its people turn for a change? paign. Isobel I do agree with George. I argued against the SNP's decision to leave the STUC's campaign because it did seem to me there was potential to keep a fair degree of unity while still pursuing an active non-payment cam- paign on our own account. There has been a tendency towards sectarianism on our part, which is not the right atmosphere for at this point. At the same time I think that the whole question of non-payment is central because we have to give the people tools of resistance, build up a kind of oppositional consciousness.

Let me go back to that critical point when The participants in the roundtable are: George Bolton, president of the Scottish the SNP withdrew and a split occurred in National Union of Mineworkers and member of the Communist Party executive; the campaign. Was the focus on opposition Isobel Lindsay, an executive member of the and the to the poll tax the best basis for getting campaign for a Scottish assembly; John McAllion, MP for Dundee East since 1987; unity at that stage? Could more have been Joyce McMillan, Scottish theatre critic for The Guardian and radio columnist for the done to have put a more positive aspect Herald; and Tom Nairn, journalist and author of The Enchanted Glass, a into the campaign? recent study of the British monarchy. The discussion was chaired by Doug Bain, Isobel You are never going to get a co-organiser of the forthcoming What's Left For Scotland event. vigorous campaign for a local income tax, it's just not the kind of thing that Maybe we could start with the poll tax, John What, surprisingly, has become people campaign about! The trouble, which has been the dominant campaign in an issue is the poll tax itself, because George, about all the emphasis on Scotland over the past period. How would when you look back to the housing building up the conventional type of you assess that campaign? benefit and social security changes, campaign is that we didn't have to Tom Well, surely the thing that's there was virtually no campaign at all convert public opinion: this is the going to be in the public attention over until they were actually implemented. tragedy of Scotland's position. We have the coming period is the fact that the There's been a major poll tax campaign won the arguments, we don't have to go only two serious candidates in the long before it's ever likely to have any around convincing and converting peo- Govan by-election, Scottish National effect on anybody. ple - we have to find the forms of action Party (SNP) and Labour, are both I think it was necessary that the that are going to put greater political advocating non-payment of the poll tax: debate inside the Labour Party between pressure on governments. Unfortu- in effect extra-constitutional action. I the payers and the non-payers went on, nately, the traditional forms of ex- think this is the only by-election in because it is a very difficult choice. It's pressing democratic opinion have not modern times where this will have an issue that divides every party, but been effective and this is the dilemma happened, and that's surely a tribute to the importance is to try to establish we are in in Scotland. the extent to which the anti-poll tax some form of unity. I would like to see George My concern is to find the campaign has advanced and become a non-payment becoming one aspect of a widest range of public expression; even central part of Scottish politics. broad-based campaign against the gov- a flag day - money in a box - is giving Isobel The central problem has been ernment and against the poll tax, people a way to express opposition. And the divisions in the campaign. If there because there's a constitutional issue unless we do find that then we'll finish had been a fairly united front by here: I don't think there's any democra- up with a very narrow non-payment Labour, backed up by the SNP, then the tic mandate for the poll tax. campaign and it will not shift this campaign could probably have taken George Well, I thought the . Only the mass weight of off. What I think will happen now is that TUC (STUC) did a first-class job of Scottish opinion finding some express- we will still have very extensive having formed a steering committee ion can shift it. Weeks and weeks of non-payment but it will be higher in the for all the parties, and it's regrettable patient work by the STUC went in to try 'can't pay, won't pay' than in the 'can that some did not join. The SNP for and build a broad alliance with every- pay, won't pay' category. We'll get a example. Just as it's regrettable that one in it. The danger is that the steering very respectable proportion of the some in the Labour Party are breaking committee and the whole broad cam- politicised Scottish middle class parti- away by trying to make non-payment paign could collapse. It's a very serious cipating in non-payment, but the effec- the central question; because that question. tiveness of this is going to be blunted concedes the principle that the tax is John It's a very fair point that the somewhat by quite a strong campaign coming in. My worry is that the STUC were genuinely trying to bring against non-payment coming from the non-payment thing narrows the whole all the opposition political parties official Labour Party. campaign down. To get a meaningful together. But each of the opposition

34 MARXISM TODAY NOVEMBER 1988 political parties saw the main chance representation. for themselves in taking distinct lines on the poll tax. I don't want the From Do you think that the political parties are non-payment issue to interfere with all Devolution able to set aside to a certain extent the the other broad campaigning but it's To Assembly differences between them in order to important that somebody takes a stand concentrate on the common enemy? to say that what's happening in Scot- Following the 'failure' in 1979 of John I agree with George - this is a land is illegal. There's separate Scot- the Scottish referendum on de- personal view - that proportional rep- tish legislation. There was a separate volution, the cross-party cam- paign for a Scottish assembly resentation is a matter of necessity. Scottish manifesto, the poll tax was a was established, to keep alive the Because it's a socialist idea, which goes real issue in the election in Scotland. It demand for self-rule. way back to the early days when Jimmy was rejected clearly by the Scottish In 1985 the CSA called for the Maxton and the early Clydesiders were people. Somebody has to say it's an creation of a Constitutional all in favour of PR. One of the great abuse of power. Most people won't be Convention. This would bring things PR would do would be to stop able to take that stand because of the together elected representatives Thatcher winning in the next general penalties and the fines that are in- in Scotland to prepare proposals for an assembly and to seek wide- election. The best chance of anyone volved: but some people can. It's spread agreement for them. The else winning is the Labour Party and important that people in high positions Convention would also be the therefore that does influence the way it take it. And the link goes in to the body responsible for negotiating looks at other parties. I'm personally Constitutional Convention (see box), with the Westminster govern- quite happy to work with other parties, because it has to be a means of bringing ment for the transition of powers. as long as they are prepared to work on together the overwhelming anti- In July 1988 a CSA-appointed an agreed basis on things which are not Thatcher forces in Scotland. constitutional steering commit- directed against the Labour Party. tee produced Scotland's Claim Doug: Of Right, a full proposal for a Isobel I think there have been major It seems to me we're at a stage where the Constitutional Convention, and 'The things shifts in Scottish politics during the campaign's in danger of disintegrating. Is through it a new set of political that 80s; there has been a lot more co- there an initiative that can be taken to pull arrangements for Scottish identified operation at various points. I think the whole thing together? government. and CND's been very valuable in this role. George The problem is to find a But there is a central difficulty as long vehicle to express the whole cross- separated as parties fight elections and also as section of Scottish public and political the parties long as a section of the Labour Party opinion. We've done that through STUC the political parties really sunk in? seem to be still remains very much oriented to- Conventions in the past, which I've Tom It's not only the Convention, it's disintegra- wards Westminster. There are real thought were very good. Because of the the document on which the Convention tensions there. I know if we in the SNP threats to workers' rights, Scottish is founded that deserves mention, that ting beneath become more successful there is a real education, the legal system, I think the is Scotland's Claim Of Right which our feet' danger that Labour, including some of case is there for something similar many Marxism Today readers may not those elements who have been much again: a kind of embryonic Scottish have heard of. We're coming up to the more open in recent years, might go assembly, meeting every two or three tercentenary of the Glorious And back into the bunker. months to discuss and deal with all the Bloodless Revolution of 1688, in Tom As far as the parties are questions facing the Scottish nation. November, and the title of the docu- concerned I think that the most impor- Isabel The essence of the Constitu- ment reflects Scotland's part in that tant change since the mid-1970s is that tional Convention proposal is that most revolution 300 years ago. It was Scot- the SNP has modernised and moved to of the issues that people are preoccu- land's Claim of Right that was recog- the left in a very striking way. But this pied with, like unemployment or the nised by William of Orange, along with change in the SNP has had the para- poll tax, essentially come from the England's Declaration of Right. This doxical effect of aggravating the kind constitutional question. If there's a document which the campaign for a of schizoid and colonialised nature of possibility of a Constitutional Conven- Scottish assembly has produced does Scottish politics. Because as it's moved tion that has genuine credibility - seem to me, on the political- to the left it has tried more and more which means the participation, above constitutional level, to be the most directly to challenge Labour's power all else, of Scottish MPs - then that will important thing that's appeared in and, as it were, advertises itself as the be unprecedented. If it is successful Scotland since then. It has within it the party which is taking Labour's place. Isobel: This has simply exacerbated the feud- and can create some kind of consensus embryo of a new political course for 'Maybe there on the constitutional issue, then I think Scotland which can at least be launched ing and vendetta-like psychology of there are other roles: the 'interim through the Constitutional Convention. hasn't been Scottish politics. assembly' idea is one that I hope would So I don't think we should be shy of sufficient I can't actually see any ready way out eventually emerge after the constitu- underlining the historical importance debate in of this in terms of the party struggle, tional task had been done. of this. because I don't think the mainstream of But there are enormous problems Scotland John I don't think any of the parties in during the Labour in Scotland is going to change simply because of the nature of poli- general sat down and looked closely at or would actually be changed that much tics. I do not relish the idea that for the what they were getting themselves 80s about by another defeat in 1991 or 1992. All next four years the SNP and Labour are into. It depends what the Convention policy that's going to do is make the dominant going to be at each other's throats. At itself does, what kind of problems it forces in the party cling even more the same time I recognise that we in the develop- addresses and how it suggests a way ments' resolutely to the system and the SNP have to be very strong and forward. There's massive problems as conviction that somehow or other threatening otherwise the pressure well as massive potential. eventually things will work out, they doesn't go on. Hopefully there will be George I remember 1968 when the will return to power and bring about the forces in Scottish politics - and I miners put a motion to the STUC on devolution through Westminster in the think the role of the STUC has been devolution and they had to remit it! old sense. very admirable here - who are mature We've come a long way since then! So But that 1970s' concept of devolution enough to see the points at which we welcome the Convention on this people have got to come together. really depended on the idea of a strong great constitutional question. But it has and yet elastic central structure of the got to go beyond that and be a great British state: strong enough to support I get the impression the Constitutional democratic question as well, to capture this new excrescence, and able to Convention has been very cautiously the nation's imagination. And that's accommodate to it. Ten years later, I agreed, but it's an extremely radical why I hope that this process continues - don't really think many people believe proposal. Have the implications of this for and tackles the issue of proportional that any longer. Hasn't that central

35 MARXISM TODAY NOVEMBER 1988 structure grown too rotten for us to one of the groups that helped defeat the Is there not an issue coming up here about think of devolution in those comfort- referendum on the 40% basis in 1979. the identity of political parties, almost a able old terms? Now, there's been a major move of feeling of insecurity: that the things that John No, I don't agree with that. I opinion: even the Convention of Scot- identified and separated the political think that we've moved on from the tish Local Authorities is prepared to parties seem to be sliding away, disinteg- question of devolution in the mid-70s. I look sympathetically at the Constitu- rating beneath our feet? How substantial speak of a Scottish assembly, the SNP tion Convention idea. Because they are the differences on the main issues? speak of a : a have been stripped so dramatically of Tom The real change is a kind of directly-elected assembly meeting in their power under the existing system, implicit withdrawal from Westminster. Scotland. There would probably be they have come to look much more Because the Westminster system was divisions on the extent of its powers, sympathetically and radically at the always an extraordinary and unusual that kind of thing: the SNP parliament prospects of constitutional reform in one in the sense that it depended wouldn't be all-powerful, because it Scotland. I don't find it at all unusual utterly on party systems and on the would have to share powers with the now to chat informally with members collective personalities of parties, European Community, as would our of the Labour Party who say: 'Well, I where the only thing that ever mat- version of a national assembly. We don't really mind if a Scottish assembly tered was whether you were in or out. would also argue it should share some leads ultimately to independence.' This We're all to some degree victims of this powers with the Westminster system, is something you just wouldn't have kind of political psychosis which has but not in its present form. People in heard 15 years ago. given 'party' quite a distinctive mean- northern England and Scotland are George Yes, I think that arises from ing in British terms. As the legitimacy very poorly served by the Westminster people's experience of what's been of Westminster slackens I think this is system. happening. Not least the poll tax of slackening too, making people more Joyce I think it's a real problem for course. Take for example how in the aware that politics exists outside par- Labour as a 'unionist' party, committed past the Scottish nation defended ties and in terms of broader ideas and to Westminster. Because it's absolutely Ravenscraig: soon to be privatised and Joyce: principles. true that there's a vitality now in under even greater threat of closure. 'People can Isobel But in the Scottish situation I 'regional cultures': Quebecois, Scots, And that has brought a new awareness see there think there is a greater genuine coher- Bretons, which is not present in central of the importance of a Scottish assem- ence among the opposition parties if governments which are still carrying bly to defend even a privatised Ravens- won't be any you look at their general ideological the luggage of an imperial position. craig or the perceived threat to the little stance. They are all fairly collectivist Part of the thing that's corrupting and Scottish coal industry. And of course cultures in a and interventionist in their approach. It rotting the British government is that they're now talking about abandoning may be that there hasn't been sufficient it's structurally a hangover from an age the Scottish legal system. And all of hundred debate in Scotland during the 80s about when it had a kind of power which it no these things have an impact on people's years' time' policy developments, because we have longer has. ideas. So that's why there's been some all been preoccupied with tactics: So unless there was to be a radical strange voices that are now saying they we've been very much on the defen- reform of the whole of British govern- want devolution. It springs from their sive. But collectivism is still very ment, such that the Labour Party could experience. respectable in Scotland in a way that it once again feel confident that it could Joyce It does seem to me that if the would appear not to be at least in operate usefully within the Westmins- Scottish 'people' have a mood or southern England. ter context, then Labour's going to be feeling, it's very much parallelled by John In fact the people in all the hampered by this attachment to a that. From my experience in the different parties at the moment could system of government which is visibly cultural field, most of the theatre quite easily share the same philosophy: - from any socialist perspective - companies, for instance, which seek to many people in the SNP regard them- rotting from within. Labour's unionist find a popular audience in Scotland do selves, very much the same as myself, position is becoming more and more seem to find themselves adopting a as socialists, and probably wouldn't untenable as Britain itself becomes position which is both socialist and disagree with very much else other more and more of an untenable con- nationalist, or at least devolutionist (it than the fact that they want to go for cept. needn't be explicitly nationalist in independence and I don't. John You underestimate the power of terms of support for the SNP). That Joyce Well this of course begs the parliament. We have to find ways of seems to be almost an instinctive question of what exactly is meant by breaking that down. I think the Labour posture of the Scottish people: that they Tom: 'The 'socialist'? Because we're all agreed in Party has to go far more for a federal associate more power for Scotland with most Scotland that we're broadly speaking structure to get more power devolved more power for the people. What important more interventionist, more positive away from Westminster. But I still interests me is whether that is just a change since about collectivist ideas, as Isobel says, think there's room for a UK-type myth. Might it not be possible to go than people in the south of England are. set-up. We've been together now for forward to some sort of Scottish the mid-7Os So it sounds as if what we're saying now hundreds of years, and there's things government which would end up re- is that the is that the present party structure is we do have in common, things we can flecting exactly the same sort of SNP has completely failing. We're in the middle do well together, and we shouldn't just corruptions and difficulties for popular modernised of a social revolution of some sort and be turning our backs on the people in government as Westminster does? Or the party structure is failing to repre- England and Wales. Some of the best would the mere fact of breaking up the and moved sent the actual strands in society. So comrades I've got are in the English 19th century nation states like the UK left' you get all these crossed lines of Labour Party, and I would hate to turn lead to some qualitative shift in poli- sympathy among all the parties. away from them to keep them in that tics, so that it became more left-wing, perpetual madness under Thatcher and democratic, or whatever? Maybe to use the words 'socialist', the Tories: that would be a terrible John I actually don't like people 'nationalist', 'left', isn't actually very thing to do! saying that 'nationalist' means they useful. We've got to understand how Isobel I disagreed with Tom, when he support the SNP. We have 72 nationalist Thatcherism has transformed the rules and said he thought the Labour Party had members of parliament for Scotland. structures of British politics, which I think remained the same: one of the things We all see ourselves as nationalists, as is the main cause of the rethinking that has struck me very sharply over being in favour of Scotland, our identi- currently going on in all the political the past eight years or so is just how ty is Scottish, we just see different parties. Is this not an additional argument substantially opinion in the Labour futures for Scotland. The SNP have a for coming together to discuss the terms of Party has shifted. And in some unlikely vision of Scotland that I don't share. I the alternative to Thatcher? What is the places, such as local government. It have a different vision but I am a Scots place of the mixed economy, what are all was Labour local councillors who were person, a nationalist, in that sense. the moral issues involved, what are the

37 MARXISM TODAY NOVEMBER 1988 cultural issues in politics? current position'. To me that's a very control of its own fate? Not just as a Isabel I think there is a potential in important part of the discussion: the matter of principle that it's a good thing Scotland - which is really my motiva- way ahead for Scotland and what we're for nations to take control of their fate tion for being nationalist - for a for as a campaign. because I don't think that can go different development of socialism, Isobel I think that was an important without saying any more. Nationalism essentially a decentralist, community point you made about the nature of the has not got such a good record in the socialism. And it was always my hope democratic campaigning being prob- history of the world that you can just that because of the very nature of the ably quite central in determining the say: 'This is a basic human right, we drive for self-determination of a pure nature of the state in an independent should have it', end of discussion. nationalist movement, it would, if Scotland. One of the very interesting You've got to actually make a case, successful, go on to produce particular things recently is to look at Estonia and you've got to have an ethics of self- structures of control within Scotland Latvia and the various essentially determination which goes through a itself. This is where I have a disagree- nationalist movements in the Soviet nationalist movement. And that means ment with many over the European Union - able to get millions on the that it's not just a movement for Scots Community, because it seems that it is street. It's been incredibly impressive against the English, it's also a move- moving in an entirely different direc- looking at non-violent demonstrations ment for self-determination against - tion certainly from the way I would like involving enormous numbers of people, what? To my mind, against whatever to see Scottish socialism go. The highly disciplined, highly controlled. forces are now running the global important thing is that if we did get any Now, were we able to turn out these economy. I know that sounds very big, form of Scottish legislature, I think we same relative numbers on the street, but I think it's the reason why people would find the present party system in that is something that would be of such are becoming more and more in- Scotland would be shaken up quite enormous moment that it would be terested in cultural self-determination substantially: it would be a very difficult for the government to ignore. - they can see that if multinational exciting prospect. John: 'One of John What we're looking for, in a capitalism is left to itself there won't be Joyce I think PR is essential to allow the great sense, is a national movement that any little cultures in 100 years' time. that degree of flexibility... things PR doesn't commit people to one particular All that kind of subtext has to be Isobel I think it's highly desirable. political party, but can bring people present in a movement that's going to There are huge problems there. In the would do from different political parties rock for devolution, or they'll be Constitutional Convention steering would be to together to win for Scotland the kind of rocking on a superficial level. committee that produced the Claim Of stop agreed programme that everybody can Tom Well, I disagree profoundly with Right document, it was one of the Thatcher swing behind. If a Constitutional Con- your subtext about small nation trickiest issues. Nearly everyone there vention could actually get to the level nationalism. The history of small nation favoured PR but we also knew that winning the where you could get that agreement... I nationalism is overwhelmingly positive leading on it too heavily would strongly next don't know how you'd get it in detail, it and progressive. People tend to forget antagonise many in the Labour Party, election' is very difficult. Having a Constitution- that Balkanisation was the best thing and some in the trade union movement al Convention on its own won't of itself that ever happened to the Balkans. as well. So unfortunately it's desirable, establish a Scottish assembly, but it Joyce But it can go wrong... but it's going to be one of the very could be a means of finding a way Tom Well, there are a few grim divisive issues if we get the Constitu- forward. pathological examples in history... tional Convention going. Joyce Then we need to look at the Joyce Yes, I think the Convention conditions which predispose to give a Joyce Well, most of the Labour people could be the engine towards it. At the that I know seem to be in favour of PR! good example rather than a bad ex- moment if you said to the Scottish ample. I'm amazed at the number of people people: 'Come out on to the streets in who have come round to it in the last your millions and demonstrate', they Tom I don't see why, even given the four to five years. wouldn't! But maybe they would if difficulties that we've discussed here George I think you might well there was something to demonstrate today, a secular, standard, modern, discover there's pretty strong union around. Which is why the Constitution- democratic form of identity shouldn't opposition to it still. But you're right, al Convention could be important. be produced as the basis for rocking for there is a shifting of ground on this George When you think about it, self-help. It already partly exists, and question. You can now discuss it with despite all Thatcher's successes she's it's something which things like the Labour Party people without getting never really broken that Scottish/ Constitutional Convention, I hope, are involved in fisticuffs! British feeling of caring and compas- going to foster strongly. But going back to the question of a George: sion. That affects attitudes to the poll Isobel Yes, I think the reason why Scottish assembly, I think what comes 'I could tax: it's unfair, it's unjust. That's a very small nation nationalism from most from that depends upon the democratic imagine important theme to tap in all the basic humanitarian standards has character of the campaign around it, campaigns as part of what we're worked out fairly well is because small because that then impinges upon the easily talking about. For example, all these nations have to recognise the fact that democracy of the assembly. It seems to 80,000 kids in Band Aid and Sport Aid, think of they don't have much power and that me that we should be trying to establish kids in that big Mandela concert reaching they're not in a position to impose it on our areas of agreement, as part of the Hampden, young kids: what a tremendous thing to others. I always have a distrust of the campaign for devolution, because de- tap into. I think it's linked to a simple large, centralised power blocs, because volution would be a major blow to rocking for approach about wanting to care about it's such a temptation for them to use Thatcherism, a serious blow, and of devolution' other people, about wanting to share in that power in ways that can often be course a very important indicator to their compassion and love and whatev- damaging. Whereas small nations, by the north east, the north west, Corn- er. You see, I could imagine easily and large, do realise their limitations wall, the Home Counties. We should be 80,000 kids in Hampden, rocking for and have to work fairly closely with giving more thought to what are the devolution - and why not?. That's their electorates, which is a good basis areas of common ground - there should enjoyable politics, and earns us money for a political democracy. be plenty of them - and put in more for more campaigning! George And not just for its own sake, discussion on the political aspects of Joyce I think there's a difficulty but for the purposes we've talked the Convention. there. You have to have some sort of about: preserving and developing Scot- I'd like very much to break out of this clarity in your mind, not just why you tish history, culture, education, litera- 'defend-the-health-service' syndrome, want to break away from Thatcher, and ture, and the economy: the whole lot. • 'defend the Scottish coal industry', not just how you feel Scottish rather 'defend Ravenscraig', 'defend educa- than British, but of exactly why at this On November 4-6, Marxism Today is sponsoring stage of the history of the planet it is a What's Left For Scotland, a national event of politics tion'. I want an offensive, to say: 'This is and culture. Details and tickets from Richard Green what we're for, in opposition to the good thing for a small nation to take on 041 429 S081.

39 MARXISM TODAY NOVEMBER 1988