Seven Veteran Rabbis Tell It Like It Was

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Fifty Years in the Pulpit: Seven Veteran Rabbis Tell It Like It Was

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n January 2008, Jewish Action invited seven prominent veteran rabbis, with a combined 350 years of leadership in the Orthodox community, to reflect on the unpredictable growth and remarkable evolution Iof American Jewry. The participants were Rabbis Rafael Grossman, Joseph Grunblatt, David Hollander, Dr. Gilbert Klaperman, Ralph Pelcovitz, Fabian Schonfeld and Max Schreier. The discussion, which was moderated by Orthodox Union President Stephen J. Savitsky and took place at the Orthodox Union (OU) headquarters in Manhattan, spanned a variety of topics including the frightening pace of intermarriage, outreach to the already frum and the non-frum, the role of the North American rabbi and the decline of the cathedral-style synagogue. Subsequently, at its 110th National Dinner in April, the OU honored each of these distinguished leaders with the Lifetime Rabbinic Achievement Award for his contribution to Jewish life. The following are excerpts from the wide-ranging discussion. We hope you will be inspired by the timeless wisdom in the pages ahead. To order a DVD of the entire discussion, e-mail [email protected]. Comments and responses to this discussion are welcome on Jewish Action’s web site, www.ou.org/jewish_action.

Photos: Menachem Adelman

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Steve Savitsky: What have been Rabbi Rafael Grossman: I spent most Rabbi Max Schreier: [The rabbis of the most significant changes in of my years in rabbanus away from fifty years ago] were respected be- American Orthodox life you’ve New York. There was a time when cause they were gedolei Torah, but witnessed since you entered the every community in the United States they didn’t have a community to work rabbinate? What have been the with at least two- to three-thousand with. I remember when I arrived in most significant changes in the Jews had an Orthodox shul. Those Rochester, New York, the story was rabbi’s functions? Reform A, Conservative B, and Ortho- doxy a poor third. But the commitment Rabbi Dr. Gilbert Klaperman: In of Orthodox rabbis in general was very 1950, I came to Lawrence [New York] great, and these rabbis functioned as and found a very interesting congrega- they did within limitations of commu- tion—patrician, aristocratic people. nal influence. The congregants were They were very fine Jews, but they not very well educated, by and large, knew very little about the religious re- with the exception of those who came quirements of Judaism. They helped from religious communities. build the synagogue. Together, we built the first yeshivah in Nassau County. Rabbi Fabian Schonfeld: Basically, We [helped] build the first eruv in the changes came about with siyata the county. We had a great commu- d’Shamaya [help from Above]. It’s the nity.But we did not have talmidei natural way of Torah to inspire people, chachamim. We have them today in to cause them to rethink what life is all our congregation—I think that’s a about. It was the drive towards Jewish significant change. education—the yeshivah movement, Rabbi Rafael Grossman was the day school movement—that senior rabbi of the famed Baron Rabbi Ralph Pelcovitz: When we brought about a very significant Hirsch Synagogue in Memphis, change. People call it “the shift to the came into our positions, a half-century Tennessee, for thirty years. Hon- Right.” I don’t know of a Right, or Left ago, we found—those of us who were ored with the OU’s National or Center. This is a question of label- in truly Torah-observant shuls—that Rabbinic Centennial Medallion ing, which is wrong. I’ve always been the older generation was more frum Award, he is a past president of opposed to the use of [the term] “Cen- than the younger generation. Today, both the Rabbinical Council of trist Orthodoxy.” . . . It’s Torah Judaism. the younger generation is more frum America (RCA) and the Beth A rabbi’s job has also changed than the older generation. Din of America, as well as a for- tremendously; [he is no longer] some- mer chairman of the board of body who [just] answers occasional Rabbi David Hollander: Among the Religious Zionists of Amer- questions about Ya’aleh Veyavo, Ret- other significant changes is the up- ica. Additionally, Rabbi Gross- zeih and Al Hanissim. Today, the rabbi surge of Torah learning for men and man is a practicing has to be a qualified psychiatrist, psy- women of all ages. Overall, there’s a psychotherapist and a noted chologist and, above all, social wonderful change in favor of yahadus professor, author and columnist. worker—which is really what Moshe haTorah. There’s just no comparison Rabbeinu was. Yisro’s criticism of [to what was]. And for that change, the Moshe Rabbeinu was “You’re too much OU is entitled to tremendous recogni- shuls have tragically and painfully dis- of everything.” Our role has changed tion and credit. appeared. This is the negative aspect of tremendously. We are involved in peo- the last fifty years. . . . [In] town after ple’s lives, in their parnassah [liveli- Rabbi Joseph Grunblatt: There have town, city after city, where there were hood]. I don’t think that rabbanim ever been various changes in American pulpits for Orthodox rabbanim, Ortho- had this kind of a challenge. The idea Jewish life, for better or for worse. In doxy no longer exists. But, on the other of the rav [spending all of his time] sit- some communities, the stability of the hand, a number of shuls that were affil- ting and learning has changed. Rabbi family has been seriously challenged. iated with the OU fifty years ago, out- Eliezer Silver said that once, when he We find many more dysfunctional fam- side of New York, were either without was rabbi in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, ilies in the Orthodox community, and mechitzahs or had other deviations that the [shul] president walked in, and more divorces than in the past. On the were seriously problematic. [Today, found him learning. “Rav Silver, what’s other hand, we frequently encounter a this is no longer the case.] What doing?” he asked. “I’m learning,” he an- gap between the older and the younger brought about this tremendously posi- swered. “You’re learning?! You’re a generations. Many people who are tive change, and the dawning of a po- rabbi already—you don’t have to learn members of this Orthodox organiza- tentially great future for communities anymore. If you don’t know how to tion [the OU] have children who will in the remote parts of America, or at learn, why did you become a rabbi?” probably not daven in an OU shul, but least remote from New York? Firstly, of asked the president. [While the rabbi’s rather in a shtiebel. [Many of them course, chinuch [education]. Secondly, need to learn] hasn’t stopped, the rabbi will] sit and learn. So certainly, there NCSY. The achievements of NCSY are is [now required] to get involved in have been some very radical changes. nothing less than remarkable. every aspect of Jewish life.

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Mr. Savitsky: One of the greatest problems facing Jewry is intermar- Rabbi Joseph Grunblatt served for riage. What do you think can nearly four decades as rabbi of the be done to stem the tide of Queens Jewish Center in Queens, assimilation? New York. He is a recipient of the OU’s National Rabbinic Centennial Rabbi Grunblatt: Frankly, I don’t Medallion Award as well as the 1996 think there’s too much that we can do. recipient of the esteemed Ben Zakkai [Years ago,] there were many Jews Honor Society Harold H. Boxer Me- who were not observant, but you had morial Award. Rabbi Grunblatt is also a sense they were Yidden. But this a former vice president of the RCA [ethnic identification] is practically and the Vaad Harabonim of Queens, gone, and without true Torah commit- as well as an author and contributing ment there’s very little sensitivity editor to Jewish Action. about [maintaining a Jewish identity]. The liberal branches have attempted, of course [to deal with assimilation]. there was never legitimacy granted to that far a distance from legitimacy to They’re constantly writing in the this phenomenon—which is what has acceptance. And there’s also a connec- media about accepting intermarried happened in our country, slowly but tion, an opening from acceptance to couples, and working with them. But surely, over the years. When we began approval. And therefore, what we have essentially, I think it is a losing battle in the rabbinate, we, not only the Or- to do—this is something that the OU and [there is] very little that we can thodox, but also the Reform, the Con- and all Jewish organizations have to do for people who have reached the servative and the secular agreed that work on—is to reinstitute total disap- point where being Jewish doesn’t intermarriage was beyond the pale. proval, and the refusal to accept or to matter anymore. Over the last half century, there has legitimize any kind of intermarriage. been an encroachment upon the invisi- Once you give intermarriage legiti- Rabbi Pelcovitz: [The Jewish people] ble barrier between us and the non- macy, there is no argument left for us always [suffered from] intermarriage. Jewish world. Intermarriage has slowly to be able to convince our young peo- But within the Jewish community, been granted legitimacy, and it isn’t ple to reject it.

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Rabbi Klaperman: There’s another can get everyone to put on tefillin, do University of Florida—but there is no aspect of this issue that we’re not mitzvos and keep and learn Torah that Jewish community within 100 miles. I touching on. And that is, How do we would be wonderful! But that is not would urge the OU to redouble its ef- talk to our children about the problem doable. “Ve’al tomar davar she’i efshar forts in this area. of intermarriage? In other words, to lishmoa.” What is doable is to empha- simply say that we will not grant legiti- size the most important aspect of our Rabbi Klaperman: Taking Rabbi macy is not sufficient. We have to in- being, and that is Peoplehood. We are Schreier’s comments a little further, still in our children a love for Judaism. disappearing. The vast majority of there is no place on the Jewish scene We have to create a sense of emotional American Jews have yet to set eyes on where Jewish boys can meet Jewish relationship [to Judaism], of pride and Israel. The vast majority have no Jew- girls. I met my late wife in Shomer Ha- joy. We have to talk to them not only ish connection whatsoever. And that’s dati. We used to get together every Fri- about Jewish tradition, but about great not just outside of New York, but in day night. The fact is that I met my Jews who brought credit to us. We New York as well. What transcends all wife in an organization that sponsored have to talk to them about an Albert of our concerns—transcends every- the opportunity for Jewish boys to Einstein, a Jew who brought great thing—is the fact that we need to iden- meet Jewish girls. And we don’t have glory to our people. We have to say tify as a people. And part of that anymore.

Mr. Savitsky: We’re very proud of Rabbi David Hollander has been the fact that through NCSY, where rabbi of the Hebrew Alliance of we have close to 1,000 advisors, Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, New young men and women of college York, for twenty-eight years. He began age and beyond, we make hundreds his career as rabbi of K’hal Adath of shidduchim. We think NCSY Yeshurun and the Mt. Eden Jewish provides a wonderful place for Center in the Bronx, New York. A for- young men and young women to mer president of the RCA, the Rab- meet, in an acceptable social set- binical Alliance of America and Poalei ting, while they’re doing great Agudath Israel of America, Rabbi Hol- work for Klal Yisrael. lander is also a columnist for various English and Yiddish publications. Rabbi Pelcovitz: There is a certain kind of a romance, a love affair, that we have today with kiruv rechokim [outreach to the non-religious]. There’s nothing that gives greater sipuk that there were great Jewish justices in [peoplehood] is the one avenue that ruchani [spiritual thrill] than to be the Supreme Court; there are great the Ribbono Shel Olam gave us: It is mekarev [to engage in outreach]. But Jews in Congress. called Israel. let us not overlook kiruv kerovim [outreach to the already religious]. Where Mr. Savitsky: We have to have a Rabbi Schreier: I met a young man, we may be failing is in making sure shift from “guilt to pride.” Guilt who happens to be a former congre- that when our own children go off to doesn’t sell, guilt doesn’t work. You gant of mine, who’s engaged in out- college, they get the strengthening have to have pride. reach in a particular community. And they need. he said to me that with tens of thou- Rabbi Schonfeld: The only thing we sands of youngsters going to Israel Mr. Savitsky: The program we have can do is what the OU’s doing, the [after high school] each year, the key is on college campuses was never RCA’s doing, the yeshivahs are to have a presence on college cam- meant for unaffiliated kids. Our col- doing—and that is, get people to not puses to make sure that when they lege campus program was meant only study Torah, but to also practice come back [to the States] and pursue for our kids. We don’t use the term Torah. You’re not going to stop inter- their advanced degrees, they have the “kiruv kerovim” but “mechazek marriage simply by saying to people, ability to do so in a constructive at- kerovim.” In other words, the peo- “Don’t do this. It’s wrong. It’s bad for mosphere. One of the greatest of the ple who are karov also need chizuk. us.” Those arguments have no value. OU’s activities is its campus program Look at NCSY, which is the largest We need to infuse [Jews] with a spirit [the Heshe & Harriet Seif Jewish Jewish teenage kiruv organization of loyalty to Torah, not just within the Learning Initiative on Campus or synagogue alone—in every part of JLIC].* Because more than 90 percent *The OU, in partnership with Hillel Jewish communal life. of American Jewish youngsters attend and with assistance from Torah colleges and universities, the presence Mitzion, administers JLIC, a program Rabbi Grossman: The vast majority of these [frum] couples on campus has that helps Orthodox students navigate [of American Jews] have no Jewish made a huge difference. Only last night the college environment and balance identity. And how do we deal with it? I heard about a campus that has a their Jewish commitment with their First deal with the issue! Sure, if we tremendous Jewish presence—the desire to engage the secular world.

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in the United States. We reach [who was] a minister. He used to speak 30,000 out of the 338,000 Jewish about his colleagues and say, “He was teens in North America. So we’re defrocked. He was unsuited.” There reaching only 11 percent. are young men who went into the rabbinate out of commitment, out of de- Rabbi Grossman: You can talk about sire, but they’re not meant to be rabbis. internal Orthodox concerns and issues, They get burnt out very quickly, be- but they are totally irrelevant to cause the rabbinate is a challenging Jewish survival. There’s a fire burning profession. It’s hard work. It’s demand- out there. ing work. It’s intellectually challenging. Eighty percent of American Jews The rabbis I see here [around this do not live within the vicinity of New table] don’t look burnt out to me. York. West of the Hudson is where the Why? Because they were suited to Jews have moved. . . . New York is an be rabbis. entity unto itself. Orthodoxy is pro- foundly iconoclastic. And, beyond Rabbi Pelcovitz: We all get burnt out. [New York], you have a whole differ- Rabbi Dr. Gilbert Klaperman . . . Otherwise, we would [all] still be in ent world out there. You hardly have was the founding rabbi of Congre- the active rabbinate. Orthodoxy. So what are we going to gation Beth Sholom in Lawrence, If a rabbi is really fulfilling his job, do? In my lifetime, six million Jews New York, in 1950. A distinguished in a community and in a shul, he can perished. And, in my lifetime, the most professor and lawyer, he has taught be a mechadesh [innovator]. [Being] remarkable gift of Hashem occurred in at several institutions, including mechadesh does not always [pertain the emergence of the State of Israel. Yeshiva College and Hofstra Law to] chiddushei Torah. You can be a And [Israel] does evoke a sense of School. Since his retirement from mechadesh in the sense that you chan- pride among many Jews who would Congregation Beth Sholom in 1988, nel your energies in areas that are never set foot into an Orthodox shul. Rabbi Dr. Klaperman has contin- needed at that particular time. When I Our problem today is getting Jews ued to serve in various roles, in- first entered the rabbinate I channeled to remain Jews by any definition! Be- cluding assistant district attorney my energies in an altogether different cause without a people, there is no in Kings County, New York. channel than I would if I were starting kiruv. Without a people, there is no over again today. To a great extent, the chinuch and there is no Torah. ba’alei batim today are more learned, ties [when] the laity in their congrega- and there perhaps is a greater desire Mr. Savitsky: As someone who visits tion is not always receptive to the ac- for Torah than there was when we first small Jewish communities in North tivity that a rabbi wishes to introduce. started. By the same token, there are America almost every other Shab- In this regard, the OU has a great con- [new and different] challenges today— bos, I know that you’re absolutely tribution to make. . . . in sensitizing the necessity of kiruv, the question of correct. Judaism is not just New laity to the opportunities that there are intermarriage. . . . We cannot apply the York; it’s throughout North America for service. old, stale formulas that we used and throughout the world. decades ago [to] today. There has to be As I travel around and visit many Rabbi Schonfeld: I think a rabbi who chiddush. And if there is chiddush, you shuls, I meet rabbis who are young feels burnt out shouldn’t have been a cannot become burnt out. and have been in the rabbinate for rabbi in the first place. You have to go ten years or so, and they tell me into this profession, if you can call it a Rabbi Grunblatt: I once offered a they’re burnt out. Baruch Hashem, profession, with a spirit of dedication new peshat [interpretation] on an im- all of you served your congregations to Torah, to chinuch, to Klal Yisrael. If portant pasuk in the Torah: the first for many, many decades. What you do, you don’t get burnt out. I’ve theophany of Moshe Rabbeinu and the would you tell these rabbis to seen rabbis who are burnt out. They burning bush. The verse states, “He help them maintain their energy get tired of meetings and with fighting [Moshe] saw.” But what did he see? and enthusiasm? with the congregation, with the shul “Vehinai hasneh boeir ba’aish, vehasneh president. But you have to feel the aish einenu ukal.” The Seforno says the Rabbi Schreier: The area of a rabbi’s da’as, the fire of Torah, within you— [verse] refers to the Egyptians, and activity has broadened. For example, independent of age, independent of most learn [that] it refers to the Jewish whether it is on college campuses, or circumstances. If you don’t have that, people. I said that it refers to Moshe on the subject of challenged youth, you shouldn’t be a rabbi. Rabbeinu, who was told he will be there’s so much [a rabbi has to do]. I leading the Jews. Although he had would tell these young rabbis to chan- Rabbi Klaperman: We have to exam- gehakte tsores,“vehasneh einenu ukal,” nel their great abilities. Certainly the ine why a rabbi’s burnt out. Is it be- don’t ever get burnt out. That was the later generations of [American] rabbis cause he’s working too hard? Or message for Moshe Rabbeinu. were recipients of a better education because the challenge is too much for I don’t want to judge other rabbis. than earlier generations. The flipside is him? Or because he was never meant “Keshem shepartzufayhem shonos zu that many rabbis experience difficul- to be a rabbi? I had a non-Jewish friend mezu, kach deiosayhem shonos zu

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mezu”—everybody’s different, and cept that. Of course the roshei yeshivah dushin?” Today, ask any young man, takes things differently. The important can learn better; they sit and learn, day “Who’s going to be the mesader kid- thing is care. If you care, you don’t get and night. But, baruch Hashem, I know dushin, the rav of the shul or the rosh burnt out. I’ve been in the rabbinate a enough that I can deal with [the roshei yeshivah?” he’ll also say, “Aza narishe long time, and every day, there [is] yeshivah], and if they know better, kashe, what are you asking? Of course something that occurs, an experience I concede. the rosh yeshivah! Not the rav.” Until [that comes up] that I haven’t had be- we clarify the role of the rav and the fore. People have certain ambitions in Rabbi Pelcovitz: We have to define role of the rosh yeshivah, we’re not the rabbinate, and [when] the ambi- very clearly—and this definition, by going to solve this problem. tions are unfulfilled, it’s more likely the way, has to come from the laity Rav Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz was that one will get burnt out. more than from the rabbinical pow- ruach hachaim of Yeshiva Torah Vo- daas. Do you know what he once did in Mr. Savitsky: Some of the rabbis the month of Nissan? He called all the who tell me they get burnt out say senior students together and said, it’s because they do care. They tell “Who’s going to be in town Shabbos me, “Well, other rabbis may not HaGadol?” A few of us raised our care as much, and so therefore they hands. He said, “You and you, go to can keep going. I take every situa- this shul to listen to the rav’s Shabbos tion so personally. I care so much HaGadol derashah. You go to the other that I’m just burnt out.” shul. You must attend the Shabbos Ha- Gadol derashah of the rav, and you Rabbi Hollander: You have to fight have to be there in the congregation.” fire with fire! “Torah nemshelah Which rosh yeshivah today would ever le’aish.” If a rabbi is burnt out, that say that? We have to re-institute the means that his conscience is bothering mutual derech eretz [respect] between him. It’s not [a] physical [sensation]. the rav and the rosh yeshivah. It’s something that he feels that he’s One last story: I was at a wedding not doing right. For example . . . [a Rabbi Ralph Pelcovitz, hon- with the Ponevezher Rav [Rabbi Yosef rabbi] might want to say something, ored with the OU’s prestigious Kahaneman], and one of my colleagues and he hesitates to say it because of National Rabbinic Leadership was supposed to be the mesader kid- the possible material consequences, or Award, Distinguished Rabbinic dushin and I was supposed to read the because [he’s afraid of] making some- Leadership Award and the Ben kesubah. I said to my colleague, “Let’s body in his congregation angry. These Zakkai Society Enid and Harold be mechabed [honor] the Ponevezher are the things that bother the rabbi’s H. Boxer Memorial Award, is Rav, let’s ask him to be the mesader conscience. That’s what creates the rabbi emeritus of Congregation kiddushin.” So, we go over to him, and burnout. Kneseth Israel in Far Rockaway, the Ponevezher Rav said, “Me? What Burnout is not possible if you New York. A noted author and do I have to do with siddur kiddushin? know that you are working for your speaker, he has lectured exten- I’m a rosh yeshivah. I’m not a rav.” So I Father. Who is your Father? Avinu sively across the United States said, “Give him the reading of the ke- shebaShamayim! and Israel. Rabbi Pelcovitz is subah.” “Read the kesubah? I don’t also a former president of the know how to read the kesubah!” the Mr. Savitsky: Many people today Rabbinical Alliance of America Ponevezher Rav said. “I can give a are claiming that the community and a member of the OU’s shiur in Masechta Kesubos, but I don’t rabbi is being replaced by the rosh Board of Directors. know how to read a kesubah! You yeshivah, since more and more know how to read a kesubah better she’eilos, questions, are being than I do!” asked to the rosh yeshivah, and not the rabbi. What do you see as the ers—what is the role of a rav and what Rabbi Hollander: It is also a fact that role of the community rabbi in the is the role of a rosh yeshivah. And we many rabbis—Orthodox rabbis—are years ahead? should point out that historically, we not learning enough. And [to be a did have an answer to that question. I rabbi] you have to be a talmid Rabbi Grunblatt: I’ve never been once asked an elderly Jew who had chacham. That’s an absolute, minimum concerned with this kind of kavod [re- grown up in Mir [which boasted the requirement so that there will be no spect]. I feel my strength is in teaching, Mir Yeshivah]: “When there is a chas- great gap between the rabbi and the and I’ve taught in Touro College for sunah [wedding], who’s going to be the rosh yeshivah. It shouldn’t be that the many years. I once compared a rabbi to mesader kiddushin [officiator of the rosh yeshivah is the talmid chacham, a decathlon athlete. The rabbi is likely ceremony], the rosh yeshivah of Mir or and the rabbi’s [just] a good preacher. to have to have ten [different] skills, the rav of Mir?” And he said to me, The rabbi himself must be mekayem and no decathlon world champion has “Aza narishe frage, I never heard such a “Vehagisa bo yomam valaylah” [Joshua ever been championed in one of the foolish question. What does a rosh 1:8] and become a talmid chacham, and different sports. And you have to ac- yeshivah have to do with siddur kid- recognized as such.

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Mr. Savitsky: Friends of mine who Torah. Number three: You have to be ment to frumkeit and in yiras are rabbis tell me that their best prepared to serve the congregation in Shamayim. We’ve seen a whole new years for learning were in the beit every way that’s required. Number breed, and much credit goes to the midrash. Once they became rabbis, four: You have to be an ambassador to Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological they got too busy with communal the rest of the world. If you live in a Seminary [RIETS], which has pro- obligations. small community, you have to be in- duced rabbis who will go out of town, volved in the community chest; you and function superbly as rabbanim. Rabbi Hollander: All the great rab- have to be involved in Jewish and Their kavod is very important. banim, like Rav Yitzchok Elchanan, the Christian relations. You have to stand My father was a rav in Lakewood. Kovno Rav, and so on, had time to out as a leader. If someone asks a ques- And the rosh yeshivah [there], Rav [both] learn and to be rabbanim. tion that you can’t solve, you’ll channel Aharon Kotler, was considered, cor- it to the rosh yeshivah. I’ve had she’eilos rectly so, as the gadol hador. And there Rabbi Klaperman: By being success- that I wouldn’t dare respond to. were chassunahs, especially when the ful, we’re creating a problem. We have Kletzke bochrim, who were saved [from the Holocaust], came [to the United States]. Many of them lived in our Rabbi Fabian Schonfeld, recipient of house, so they felt a close attachment the OU’s National Rabbinic Centennial to my father. They would want my fa- Medallion Award, serves as rabbi of the ther to come to their chassunahs. But Young Israel of Kew Gardens Hills, New they would want the rosh yeshivah to York, a position he has held with dis- be mesader kiddushin. “Velama lo? tinction for fifty-four years. Currently Why not?” Rav Aharon refused. He in- the president of Poalei Agudath Israel of sisted that if my father was there, he America, as well as past president of the should be mesader kiddushin. And this RCA and past chairman of the Council was true [as well] for the other rav in of Young Israel Rabbis, Rabbi Schonfeld Lakewood [at the time], who was is also the founder of the Vaad much younger. That’s why Rav Harabonim of Queens. Aharon was the gadol hador, among other reasons.

Rabbi Schonfeld: Rav Joseph Ber kids studying for a year in Israel and Soloveitchik told us thirty years ago when they come home, they won’t eat Rabbi Schreier: Questions of ha- that the tekufah of the rav is [over and in their parents’ home. They will go to lachah should be addressed to the that a new] tekufah of the rosh yeshivah the rosh yeshivah. It’s a kind of defeat community rabbi. They have nothing was beginning. We didn’t quite under- that comes with success. I have mem- to do with the rosh yeshivah, as great stand what he was trying to say [at the bers of my congregation whose chil- as he may be. We are the community time], but we can see it today. dren will not daven in my shul because rabbis—and the community ba’alei The function of a rosh yeshivah is it isn’t religious enough. They will go batim should turn to us for everything. to teach Torah, to be a model to the to the rosh yeshivah; they will not So while [relying on the roshei community, more than the rabbi is. Of- come to me. I’m not offended by it. I yeshivah] may be a growing [phenom- tentimes, a rosh yeshivah is brought in have a sense of who I am. I have re- enon], it’s not going to change what ul- from Israel to be a mesader kiddushin, spect for the roshei yeshivah. I hope timately occurs in a community. at an expense to the [parents]. By the they have respect for me. I’m not a following year, the rosh yeshivah for- talmid chacham. The rosh yeshivah’s a Rabbi Grossman: I sent many, many gets the talmid’s name! There are great talmid chacham. When I was young, young people away to yeshivahs, roshei yeshivah who remain part of the I davened in a shtiebel. We had a mag- baruch Hashem. Then they would talmid’s life, and those are outstanding nificent rav. “Er iz gezesn un hot gel- come back, and get engaged. “Would people. But the rabbi who lives day ernt a gantsn tog.” All day long, he used you mind, rebbe,” they would ask me, and night with the family should not to sit and learn. He never knew the “if my rosh yeshivah is mesader kid- be excluded when it comes to times of outside world. He never knew me. dushin?” And, I tell you, truthfully, I joy. It’s not a question of kavod. It’s a He never knew anybody else. He was never mind. Except ba’alei batim mind. question of the function of the rabbi as a successful rav. But he was not a suc- Because the rosh yeshivah comes, the a servant of the community—an eved cessful rabbi. rosh yeshivah goes. But the statured Hashem and an eved of Klal Yisrael. If you would ask me, What would image of their rav is very important. Very often, [they are] pushed aside. I tell a young rabbi he has to do? I But today you have a different The function of a rosh yeshivah is would say, “You have to sit and learn, kind of rabbi. These are people who . . . not to get involved in paskening [ren- because you have to at least recognize the majority of them . . . are not pasuk dering a rabbinic decision] the the language. You have to know what puma b’girsa, they don’t stop learning. she’eilah, unless you ask him. That’s we’re talking about. That’s number They far surpass, in most instances, the function of the rabbanim, who one. Number two: You have to preach the rabbis I had known in America know Yoreh Deah. Not that the roshei fifty years ago, in learning, in commit-

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yeshivah don’t know [it], but their not innocent. They did not provide the customers no longer need your prod- function is to set the mode of life to [people with] proper spiritual nourish- uct, they’re going to go elsewhere. the talmid. The rabbi’s function is to be ment. Certain people decided that That’s why, when [new synagogues are involved in the life of the congregation. [that synagogue was] not for them, and built], physically, they … [are] smaller. The daily life; the day-to-day prob- they davened elsewhere, or in the same Then, of course, there is always lems. We have to find a modus vivendi building in a different room. The beis the ego involved. There are people of not overlapping each other. haknesses and the beis hamidrash each who need to be the rosh [head] and not has its own place in the Shulchan the zanav [tail]. You can’t have that Mr. Savitsky: We see the major Aruch. . . .There are, in fact, halachic many heads, you can’t have that many cathedral synagogue of yesteryear differences between the two. In some zanavim. But, in the final analysis, peo- vanishing and being replaced by the ways, the beis haknesses has superior- ple who need to feel important get lost shtiebel. We see that even in larger ity—it doesn’t need a mezuzah, while in the bigger shuls. congregations, there are spinoffs the beis midrash does. The synagogue [Since] the trend is going to be where people daven in homes for itself, by not adhering sufficiently to smaller rather than bigger shuls, the Minchah and Maariv. What are your the requirements of the Shulchan question is, Will there . . . be a rav in thoughts about the “shtiebeliza- Aruch [with regard to the laws pertain- the community or not? Many of these tion” of America? Is it good? Is it ing to] kedushas beis haknesses, has smaller shuls have rabbanim, but . . . in terrible? Is it pareve? brought about the situation where order to make parnassah, [they] end today, American Orthodox Jews want up teaching part time in an educational Rabbi Schonfeld: We have to make a what they think is the “real thing,” and institution. As a result, they are not distinction between a Chassidishe not [a substitute]. able to fully serve as the rav of a shul shtiebel and a shtiebel that is a break- At the same time, I want you to or of a community. I suggest that these away from a shul. Chassidishe know that the Chasam Sofer objected smaller shuls, which serve a purpose shtieblach serve a very important purpose. Gerrer Chassidim, as my family Rabbi Max N. Schreier has been the is, or Vishnitz or Satmar or Lubavitch, rabbi of the Avenue N Jewish Center in want to daven with their own people, Brooklyn for the past forty-five years. He and take directions from a central au- is a past president of the RCA and of thority, the rebbe. It’s really a kehillah. RIETS. He has received a Doctor of Divin- What the rebbe says is spread to all [of ity degree from Yeshiva University for dis- this Chassidic group’s] shtiebels tinguished service to the Yeshiva and to throughout the world. This kind of the American Jewish community. He is shtiebel is important to Jewish life. also a past president of the Vaad [The other kind of shtiebel is created] Harabonim of Flatbush. Rabbi Schreier is when people don’t like the chazzan or a member of the OU Board of Governors. the rabbi. Those shtiebels are harmful. They are destructive of the sense of the Jewish kehillah.

Mr. Savitsky: Are you saying that to the creation of a new congregation there’s never justification for a in Pressberg even though it was 100 and fulfill the needs of the congre- breakaway shul? Don’t breakaway percent Orthodox. He said it was gants, should not necessarily all have a shuls help a community grow? not needed—there was an existing rav. There should be a re-institution of congregation. the rav of a kehillah. Rabbi Schonfeld: There are good reasons for starting a new shul, such as Rabbi Pelcovitz: We should ask, Is Rabbi Grossman: Someone has [if] the shul in which one davens is not there a role for the cathedral syna- buried the Shulchan Aruch, buried the halachically acceptable. But to just gogue in the present Jewish society, as Rambam. What is the halachah about a come into the community and say, there might have been thirty or forty shul? Do you have to have a shul? Do “You and I think alike . . . let’s make years ago? The answer is, We always you have to have what people refer to, our own minyan” [is not a legitimate serve the needs of the populace. as a misnomer, the cathedral? That’s a reason]. Before you know it, that min- Synagogue Jews always associated Christian term. And why does the ha- yan will have breakaways from itself. the synagogue with the big shul in lachah require a big shul? And why do The strength of Klal Yisrael is not the town. And they were the only ones we ignore it? “Berov am hadras minyan, it’s the kehillah, which is con- who could afford to have a rav . . . and melech!” It is part of the whole cerned about everything that goes on in to offer different kinds of activities. hadrachah. “Shtiebelization” began a the community. [These synagogues] were the address long time ago. Its purpose and mission for every Jewish need, be it here or in was not really for greater frumkeit. Rabbi Hollander: Shtiebels have, un- Eretz Yisrael. How we wish it were, but in most fortunately, replaced the biggest con- This generation no longer really cases [the shtiebel was created for] the gregations. But the synagogues were needs the cathedral synagogue. If your social aspect. My group, my chevrah,

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my friends go to this shtiebel, et cetera. president of Agudath Israel. He has to sity. He was behind the first fundrais- And then a whole new dialogue was be able to give up some of his personal ing opportunity we undertook in the created: “What time did you get out?” life. He has to travel when he may not Five Towns [in New York] for the Al- “What time was davening over with?” want to. He has to leave the family bert Einstein College of Medicine [of This is not the vernacular of bnei [at] home, just like the rabbi [does]. Yeshiva University]. He was a great Torah, of people who have a sense of And a good president is one who doer, and ended up in Washington, DC, significance. But, the question is, What works hand in hand with the rabbi, as a as a congressman. do we Orthodox Jews look like in the good rabbi works hand in hand with One year, Congress was in session eyes of the vast majority [of Jews] who the president. “Vayeilchu sheneihem during Rosh Hashanah, and Herbert are not Orthodox? If we look like the yachdav” [Genesis 22:8]. The most im- called me and asked, “What do I do shtiebel, then “I [the non-Orthodox Jew] don’t belong, because this is a close-knit social entity.” Do [the non- Orthodox] see this magnificent shul as being Orthodoxy? Then Orthodoxy must be important and authentic. Does it have the positive elements of the shtiebel? A sense of warmth. A sense of davening that is real; song and joy. And what about the sermon? Is it pompous? The shul can be a magnificent asset, and do you know what? “Mesoras avo- seinu beyadeinu.” My father davened in a shul—don’t call it a cathedral, it of- fends me. My zeide did. My great-great grandfather did, too. Doros [generations] did. And I don’t want to change. I want to do what the Jews of the past have done.

Rabbi Schreier: There is a place for the [large, cathedral-style] shul because of all the communal needs. One has to fight strongly, creatively, in order to make the [cathedral] shul more acceptable. Rabbi Grossman’s differentiation between New York and the rest of the country is valid; this particular problem does [not exist as portant thing is to avoid any kind of now?” I said, “Look you have to be much] in the rest of the country as it conflict between the rabbi and the there. That’s your job.” He said, “Yes, does in my particular community. We synagogue administration. but my job is to daven on Rosh have a duty to find a way to preserve Hashanah.” So he arranged for the use the “big shul,” to make it more relevant Rabbi Klaperman: Herbert Tenzer of a room in the Capitol to be used for to the current climate. was my mentor and my very dear Rosh Hashanah services. We sent him friend. He taught me something very machzorim, a ba’al tefillah and a ba’al Mr. Savitsky: What are the qualities interesting: How does one become a tekiah. That was a remarkable accom- of a good lay leader? As a rav of a leader? Everybody wants to do the plishment. He was a man who gave his shul, what do you look for in lay right thing, but 90 percent of those life for Yiddishkeit, for charity, for leadership? Have there been any who want to do the right thing wait for service and for true kiruv. And he did ba’alei batim who’ve crossed your somebody else to do it. He was a man it without the desire for either credit path, who made a mark on you and who never waited for somebody else or respect. on your shul? to do anything. One of his dearest friends was Sister Rose Thering, a re- Rabbi Pelcovitz: I had the pleasure of Rabbi Schonfeld: [A good lay leader markable nun who, together with him, having many, many outstanding ba’alei must have] the desire to serve Klal founded the American-Israel Friend- batim in my shul. I remember when I Yisrael, not to serve himself. Not to ship League. She, through her connec- became a rav, my father, who had been see his name as president of a shul. He tions, and he through his, were able to a rav for many years, gave me two be- must understand that he has a position create a situation where Jews and Gen- rachos. One was that I should never of great responsibility. It doesn’t make tiles worked together for the State of have a president who thinks he’s a a difference whether he’s president of Israel. He became chairman of the talmid chacham. The second was that I the OU, or president of the RCA or Board of Directors of Yeshiva Univer- should never have a president with a

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good memory. Over the years, I was very fortunate to have people in our shul who were leaders of the American Jewish community, on different levels. That was not thanks to my inspira- tion. I tried to keep them in line, so that eventually they would rise to the level that they were entitled to in the first place, as water always finds its level. And they become part of the total Jewish community—that’s really what a shul is all about.

Mr. Savitsky: It’s the nurturing ground.

Rabbi Pelcovitz: Teach and nurture. And this is something, that with all of our understanding of why people are attracted to smaller shuls, will never be duplicated by [them]. We still have a need for synagogues that are from the old form and the old style. And we have to try to convince our yeshivaleit that this is what gives strength, health and hope to a community.

Rabbi Grossman: The question people always asked is, “How is it that Memphis, of all places, has the largest Ortho- dox congregation in the United States?” There are various answers you can give. In the South, less than 1 percent of Jews affiliate with Orthodoxy. And in Memphis, baruch Hashem, it’s substantially over 30 percent. Two people are really responsible for it—a lot of us like to take credit, including myself, but it’s not so. But Sam Margolin, alav hashalom, was in shul every day. There was never a shiur I gave that he did not attend. And he was a titan in business. He founded what was the largest independent mortgage company in America—closed Shabbos, closed on yom tov. He was an extremely intelligent, wonderful, highly cultured and very articulate person—and a great spokesman for Torah and Jewish education. The other individual was Philip Belz, alav hashalom. Philip Belz was considered by many to be the wealthiest Jew, if not the wealthiest person, in Mid America. He was a Jew who loved to do mitzvos. He inspired his son, Jack, to do the same. And he put his money where his mouth was. He built our previous shul [Baron Hirsch Congregation]—which was “zeh Keili v’anveihu.” It was the largest shul on Earth— and Orthodox. And he wouldn’t have it any other way. While all of the other Orthodox shuls in the South, the large ones, went to the non-Orthodox or disappeared, Baron Hirsch continued to grow. We had these extraordi- nary . . . prototypes [who showed] that you can be respected in business, venerated in the community and a Jew in the fullest sense of the word. Many turned to Yiddishkeit [because of these role models].

Mr. Savitsky: Thank you all for participating in this his- toric discussion. We, the Jewish community, are in- debted to all of you for all you’ve done to help preserve, defend and grow Jewish life.

Special thanks to Menacham Ejdelman, program associ- ate at YIVO, for his assistance in preparing this article.

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