Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Justice
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Third Session – Forty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Justice Chairperson Mr. Alan Lagimodiere Constituency of Selkirk Vol. LXXV No. 2 - 6 p.m., Monday, March 22, 2021 ISSN 1708-6671 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-Second Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ADAMS, Danielle Thompson NDP ALTOMARE, Nello Transcona NDP ASAGWARA, Uzoma Union Station NDP BRAR, Diljeet Burrows NDP BUSHIE, Ian Keewatinook NDP CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. Kildonan-River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Roblin PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GORDON, Audrey, Hon. Southdale PC GUENTER, Josh Borderland PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah, Hon. Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg, Hon. Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek, Hon. Interlake-Gimli PC JOHNSTON, Scott Assiniboia PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Tyndall Park Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas-Kameesak NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Malaya Notre Dame NDP MARTIN, Shannon McPhillips PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC MOSES, Jamie St. Vital NDP NAYLOR, Lisa Wolseley NDP NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Turtle Mountain PC REYES, Jon Waverley PC SALA, Adrien St. James NDP SANDHU, Mintu The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron, Hon. Springfield-Ritchot PC SMITH, Andrew Lagimodière PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Vérendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WASYLIW, Mark Fort Garry NDP WHARTON, Jeff, Hon. Red River North PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE Monday, March 22, 2021 TIME – 6 p.m. Clerk Assistant (Ms. Katerina Tefft): Good evening. Will the Standing Committee on Justice LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba please come to to order. CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Alan Lagimodiere (Selkirk) Our first item of business is the election of a VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Mr. Len Isleifson Chairperson. (Brandon East) Are there any nominations? ATTENDANCE – 6 QUORUM – 4 Mr. Len Isleifson (Brandon East): I nominate Members of the Committee present: Al Lagimodiere. Hon. Mr. Friesen, Hon. Ms. Gordon Clerk Assistant: Mr. Lagimodiere has been nominated. Ms. Fontaine, Messrs. Isleifson, Lagimodiere, Ms. Naylor Are there any other nominations? APPEARING: Hearing no other nominations, Mr. Lagimodiere, will you please take the Chair. Hon. Jon Gerrard, MLA for River Heights Mr. Chairperson: Good evening, everyone. I would PUBLIC PRESENTERS: like to welcome you to the Standing Committee on Justice, and will the committee please come to order. Bill 24– The Legal Profession Amendment Act Our next item of business is the election of a Mr. Jurgen Feldschmid, private citizen Vice-Chair. Are there any nominations? Mr. James Beddome, Green Party of Manitoba Ms. Darcia Senft, Law Society of Manitoba Hon. Audrey Gordon (Minister of Mental Health, Ms. Leah Kosokowsky, Law Society of Manitoba Wellness and Recovery): I nominate member (by leave) Isleifson for Brandon East. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Isleifson has been nominated. Bill 50– The Legal Aid Manitoba Amendment Act Are there any other nominations? Mr. James Beddome, Green Party of Manitoba Mr. Patrick Falconer, private citizen Hearing no other nominations, Mr. Isleifson is Ms. Gerri Wiebe, Criminal Defence Lawyers elected as Vice-Chair. Association of Manitoba Ms. Shawn Kettner, private citizen This meeting has been called to consider Ms. Michelle Dallmann, private citizen the following bills: Bill 24, The Legal Profession Mr. Carlos Sosa, private citizen Amendment Act; Bill 31, The Horse Racing Regulatory Modernization Act, liquor, gaming MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION: and cannabis control act and pari-mutuel levy act amendment; and Bill 50, The Legal Aid Manitoba Bill 24 – The Legal Profession Amendment Act Amendment Act. Bill 31 – The Horse Racing Regulatory I would like to inform all in attendance of the Modernization Act (Liquor, Gaming and provisions of our rules regarding the hour of Cannabis Control Act and Pari-Mutuel Levy Act adjournment. A standing committee meeting to consi- Amended) der a bill must not sit past midnight to hear public Bill 50 – The Legal Aid Manitoba Amendment Act presentations or to consider clause-by-clause of a bill, except by unanimous consent of the committee. * * * 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 22, 2021 Public presentation guidelines: prior to pro- practice has been almost exclusively in the area of ceeding with public presentations, I would like to family law for the past 15 years. advise members of the public regarding the process for speaking in committee. In accordance with our With respect to Bill 24, The Legal Profession rules, a time limit of 10 minutes has been allotted for Amendment Act, we, the members of the Manitoba presentations, with another five minutes allowed for Bar who practise family law, recognize that these questions from committee members. amendments are intended to merely empower the Law Society to undertake the establishment and regulation If a presenter is not in attendance when their name of limited legal practitioners. They are permissive is called, they will be dropped to the bottom of the list. provisions in this legislation, not mandatory, as they If the presenter is not in attendance when their name should be in our view, perhaps with one exception that is called a second time, they will be removed from the I will address near the end of my presentation. presenters' list. We also recognize that while the authority which The proceedings of our meetings are recorded in is sought to be provided to the Law Society is order to provide a verbatim transcript. Each time to enable them to regulate and license limited someone wishes to speak, whether it be an MLA or a practitioners generally, the intent expressed by the presenter, I first have to say the person's name. This is Law Society, in line with the recent policy direction the signal for the Hansard recorder to turn the mics on of the Manitoba government, focuses on the area of or off. family law. Thank you for your patience. * (18:10) Bill 24–The Legal Profession Let me say and start that as a general premise, the Amendment Act area of family law does not lend itself readily to the Mr. Chairperson: We will now proceed with public involvement of paralegals and limited practitioners in presentations. that it is an area of the law first and foremost focused on dispute and conflict resolution, whether through I will now call on Jurgen Feldschmid and ask the negotiation, mediation, arbitration or trials before a moderator to invite them into the meeting. Please court, and this is similar to such areas of the law as unmute yourself and turn your video on. civil litigation or the criminal law. These areas of the law can be distinguished from more transactional Welcome, Mr. Feldschmid. If you have any areas of the law, such as real estate conveyancing, written materials for distribution to the committee, corporate transactions and probate and administration you can now send the file through the chat function or of estates. email the moderator, who will distribute it to all committee members. The critical distinction is connected to the role of Mr. Jurgen Feldschmid (Private Citizen): Yes, I the exercise of professional judgment which, in the emailed two documents to the clerk of the committee area of legal services, can only properly be–and earlier today to be distributed to the members of the properly and effectively provided without undue risk committee, or in the alternative, it'll–they'll be to the recipient of such services by an individual with available to members after my presentation. sufficient legal education, training, mentorship and experience. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Feldschmid. No paralegal or limited practitioner should be Please proceed with your presentation. placed into a position that requires the exercise of professional judgment based on legal education and Mr. Feldschmid: First, let me thank the Chair and the training. The practice of law for centuries has been members of the committee, as well as the clerk and all viewed as a profession. The essence of a profession is staff, for giving me an opportunity to speak to you the exercise of professional judgment based on a deep today. and thorough understanding of the accumulated My name is Jurgen Feldschmid. I am the current knowledge relevant to the field in question. This chair of the executive committee of the family law precludes many areas of legal practice from being section of the Manitoba Bar Association. I've undertaken by limited practitioners, particularly if practised family law in Winnipeg at the firm of they were to operate independent from the supervision Duboff Edwards for more than 25 years, and my of lawyers. March 22, 2021 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5 In areas of the law, such as real estate trans- But the cost and therefore the potential access to actions, wills and estates, there are numerous justice advantages of limited practitioners that they functions which one could see being cost-effectively represent must be balanced with the necessity of and safely carried out by paralegals or limited ensuring the availability of the application of proper practitioners, not involving the exercise of pro- professional legal judgment where required in every fessional legal judgment, such as the completion of case and for every client.