The 1944 Uprising: The Story of a Resistance Member Fighting for the Freedom of

Interviewer: J.C. Butz Interviewee: Dr. Julian Kulski Instructor: Alex Haight February 11, 2016

Table of Contents Interviewee Release Form ...... 2

Interviewer Release Form ...... 3

Statement of Purpose ...... 4

Biography ...... 5

Historical Contextualization—“Fighting For Freedom: Background on Poland and Its past struggles with Tyranny” ...... 6

Interview Transcription ...... 16

Interview Analysis ...... 34

Appendix ...... 38

Works Consulted ...... 40

Statement of Purpose

During World War II many men were killed and wounded fighting for their country and their homes. wanted to control all of and Poland was first on the way to doing so. In all the events that happened in World War II many smaller stories but extraordinary stories have been forgotten in the history books. This project intends to bring light to a lesser know resistance that occurred in Warsaw Poland by bringing to light the great actions of the resisters in the and also the Ghetto Uprising. The amazing story of Dr. Julian Kulski allows us to hear a first hand account of an event that many have forgotten. However, documenting stories like Dr. Kulski’s are more imperative as time marches on. The significance of obtaining Oral Histories of what happened in World War II is important while they are still here to share their stories with us.

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Biography

Dr. Julian Kulski was born in Warsaw Poland in 1929. He was born to an affluent family with his father being the vice-mayor of Warsaw. He was ten when World War II broke out in Europe.

The Germans quickly invaded and occupied Poland. Julian joined the resistance at the age of twelve with the permission of his father. He fought in a commando unit until the capitulation of the Resistance to the Germans. He then was sent to a POW camp near . Dr. Kulski was in the camp for eights months suffering from tuberculosis and terrible living conditions. He escaped the POW camp when an American convoy of trucks came to pick up the American POW’s. He was taken out of the camp by the Americans and then when to London. His father knew Lady

Copeland, a rich china dealer. She nursed him back to health and schooled him till he went off to

Yale for college. He received his undergraduate and Ph.D. from Yale in Urban Planning. Dr.

Kulski then went on to become a very successful architect and urban planner. He has two children and lives with his wife in Washington D.C.

Fighting For Freedom: Background on Poland and Its Past Struggles with Tyranny

“As long as these are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable,” said

Albert Einstein. Millions of people died and millions more hurt because of the war. The resilience and perseverance of the oppressed people throughout history and the willingness to fight for what is right is an overlooked action by many people today. Only a young boy who was taught from a young age that his country had been oppressed and had its freedom taken away would be willing to pick up arms against a new wave of oppressors. Julian Kulski as a fifteen- year-old boy was a member of the Polish resistance in the historical Warsaw Uprising of 1944.

The Warsaw uprising was an attack, formed by the underground resistance, which intended to take possession of Warsaw back before the Soviets liberated them. As historian Andrzej

Chmielarz talks about the Polish spirit he states, “Indeed, it was the uprisings that were primarily responsible for forging the Polish national character and the ’ love of freedom and independence” (415). In order to understand the perspective of someone who participated in the

Warsaw Uprising, it is important to first examine the Polish people’s continuous struggle for freedom, their history as an oppressed people, and their resilient spirit.

Ever since the founding of Poland, the Polish people have had troubles with their bigger, more powerful neighbors. Poland for a long time has been under attack as Julian Kulski says

“Over many centuries, our nation in the heart of Europe was envied and brutally attacked by the

Mongol hordes of Ganghis Khan, by the armies of Islam, by the German Order of the Knights of the Black Cross, and by the Russian and Swedish empires” (Kulski 18). In 1916 the November

5th Act was a declaration of the European powers that established a puppet state in Poland that the powers controlled. Germany’s interest in drafting the act was based on their desperate need

of the Poles’ help. The Germans wanted to draft the Poles to help fight the Russians in World

War I. The declaration assigned power to the newly created Provisional Council of state that operated Poland, the Council commenced work in December 1916, with Waclaw Niemojowski as its president. The council lacked power and ability to act due to the over lording of powerful nations such as Germany and Austria which watched closely over Poland’s actions.

As the Polish people wanted to assert their power and freedom as a state, they rebelled against the in July 1917. The Oath crisis was a mass denial of allegiance to the

Central Powers by the Polish Legions. Persuaded by Commander Józef Pilsudski the majority of the troops declined to make the oath. Consequently, the Germans forced many of the Polish into an internment camp in response to this mass act of rebellion. The signing of the Treaty of Brest-

Litovsk on March 3rd, 1918 was an agreement between the Central Powers and Russia, which ended Russia’s participation in . The consequences of this treaty were that “The

Germans demanded the Russians give independence to all of the border states of the : Finland, Poland, the Baltic provinces, Moldavia, Galicia, and Armenia” (Stokesbury

133). These demands by Germany allowed these countries to gain political and economic influence in the region. The Polish people suffered immensely in the crosshairs of World War I but they constantly preserved. The ended Germany's actions in World War

I. The Treaty of Versailles was an important peace treaty at the end of the World War I because it ended the war between the Germans and the Allied powers. It held Germany responsible for the negative consequences of the war. The treaty brought great shame to the nation and forced

$56.5 million of debt onto the nation of Germany.

While World War I may have ended, it was not long after that the Polish people found themselves in conflict with the . The Polish-Soviet War began in February 1919 as

a clash over the control of land in modern day and Ukraine. Poland wanted to extend its borders, but quickly received a forceful attack by the Soviets as the Soviet were simultaneously attempting to occupy Poland. The Soviets pushed the Polish army all the way back to the capital in Warsaw. The Soviets moved in on Warsaw but Józef Pilsudski, the same commander that led the oath crisis, counterattacked from the south, disrupting the Russian attack. The Poles had taken 66,000 Soviet troops prisoner, killed 10,000 Soviet men and captured key artillery and weapons in this counterattack. “The Soviet Union now had no choice but to surrender in exchange for peace, offering the Poles vast amounts of territory along its Soviet-Polish borders in exchange for the armistice, which was signed on October 12th of 1921. The Polish and Soviets agreed on the final terms at the Treaty of Riga in March 1921” (“Battle of Warsaw”).

Throughout the conflicts the Poles kept a determined focus on being free and denying tyranny.

With the Polish-Soviet war over, the Polish people went through a time of prosperity. In speaking of his own experience, John Kulski stated, “That period of independence between the two World Wars was a time of hope and energy for the Polish people...the new white flag with its white eagle flew over the city and our teachers loved telling us about a patriotic history”

(Kulski 18). During this time of Polish prosperity, The French saw an opportunity to become allies with Poland in 1921. The French saw great value to have an ally in Eastern Europe. The

French soon became Poland's most supportive ally, showing great support during the Polish-

Soviet war. The French were proactive in sending troops to aid the Polish army. In July, both countries signed the Soviet-Polish Non Aggression Pact. In January 1934, Germany also signed a

Non-Aggression Act with Poland, very similar to the one signed by the Soviets. The agreements were broken by the Soviets on September 17,1939 when they invaded Poland. Likewise, the

German agreement was broken with the German on September 1,1939. These

invasions marked the beginning of World War II in Europe and brought Poland and its people into the center of the beginning of World War II.

Once Poland found themselves in the thrust of World War II, the suffering of the Polish people quickly commenced. Bloody Sunday was a massacre in the city of two days into the German invasion. The Germans killed 650 Polish hostages in a mass execution after the fall of the city (“Bloody Sunday”). The Polish were left to their own devices during the invasions “Despite their declarations of war neither Britain nor France though it was fit to activate assistance and Poland was left to face the enemies alone” (Davis 29). Warsaw, the capital of Poland, was attacked by the (The German Army) with intense fury similar to the attacks on Bloody Sunday. The Germans utilized their Stuka dive-bombers constantly from the start of the attacks (Davis 30). The strong and mighty capital of Poland, Warsaw, was surrounded just after two weeks. The Polish were forced to face tyranny once again and tried their best to survive.

The citizens of Warsaw refused to surrender to the German troops surrounding their city.

Instead they began to fortify Warsaw and prepare for the attack. They worked day and night to dig trenches and build up blockades of furniture, cars, and trolley cars, in an attempt to block

German . Strategic locations in citizens’ house had been set up as pillboxes for snipers to take out German troops. Polish citizens were also active in the attack effort by tossing “burning rags under German vehicles causing them to explode” (Davis 33). These multitudes of small attacks lead the German leadership to decide to pound the Polish people into submission. Food quickly started to run low throughout the city; however, the Polish people valued freedom and loved their country. Eventually, the Germans defeated the Polish people. In remembering this defeat , John Kulski stated, “Warsaw, the capital of Poland, fell to the Germans on September

28th.. our country was the first to fall to the German army. When I got to the city I saw dead bodies lay everywhere, buildings were half gone and the all windows were blown out” (28). In the end the strong, united Polish people were divided into two parts. On September 28th, the

Germans and Soviets signed the German-Soviet Treaty of Friendship that declared the two powers would cooperate and divided Poland into two parts: one for Germany and the other for the Soviets.

Peace between Germany and the Soviets would only last briefly, however. Operation

Barbarossa was Hitler’s military attack on the Soviet Union even though the two nations had agreed to be allies in 1934. The Germans started their invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22,

1941. The Germans mobilized four million soldiers, thousands of tanks and planes in what has been called “the most extensive and the most savage of modern military campaigns” (Davis 39).

Operation Barbarossa helped the Polish in many ways. It forced the Soviets into a position where they needed Poland. With the Soviets in need of help “On July 30th the Soviet-Poland treaty was signed, which formed an army out of the millions of Polish people who were being held as

Soviet prisoners from the previous invasion (Davis 41). On December 7th 1941 the Japanese allies with Germany attack the Navy base in Pearl Harbor Hawaii. Germany was allied with

Japan. This attack brought the United States of America into World War II in both the Pacific and European theaters. The US entering into WW II would alter the course of the war on both theaters.

While the world was occupied by war the Polish were fighting their own internal battle for freedom. The Polish began to develop plans to take back their freedom from the Germans.

Even though the Polish people had been defeated, the army went underground and the people prepared for their resistance and how they were going to make Poland free again. The Polish

spirit would not die there as “The majority of the 1.5 million personnel whom the Polish had mobilized, the war had ended then but a large amount of them escaped and took to the woods or lived to fight again” (Davis 31) In November of 1939, the Germans started their work on building the Warsaw Jewish Ghetto. The conditions were harsh during the existence of the

Warsaw Ghetto: “All People who were not in possession of Aryan papers were ordered to congregate in the Ghetto” (Davis 93). All Jews that were caught outside of the ghetto were to be shot. The Jews who were considered the “Subhuman Racial group” were given only 184 calories for a daily ration compared to the 669 calories given to the Aryans that were suitable for

Germanization (Davis 90). Life for the Jewish people was dominated by fear as “Jews were killed at random for unspecified crimes as life became a daily game of chance” (Davis 94). The

SS appointed a Jewish console lead by Adam Czerniakow, a Warsaw lawyer. Czerniakow was a friend of Julian Kulski, the mayor of Warsaw and the father of subject of this interview, ultimately killed himself because of the agonizing responsibility and feeling of guilt for the atrocities being committed in Poland.

The Uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto started on April 19, 1943 and lasted until the 16th of

May. The resistance came as a response to the orders by the Germans that all the remaining population of the ghetto would be moved to Treblinka, extermination camp. On this day, the

Jewish population in the ghetto took up arms against the Germans. In remembering this monumental day of resistance, Kulski stated, “The morning after the uprising, Polish and Jewish flags hung above rooftops some apartments on Muranow Street. The sight stirred everyone in

Warsaw” (53) just like the collective people of Warsaw, the Jews refused to accept the surrender.

The Germans followed with tanks and merciless killing. Many people died from burning to death and smoke inhalation from in the buildings that the Germans set ablaze. As Vladka Meed shared

in her Oral History with the Holocaust museum in Washington DC, she states, “The Germans couldn't take over the streets, they start putting block after block on fire. They start burning the ghettos...the buildings” (Meed). 13,000 Jews died as a result of the uprising. It was the largest

Jewish uprising in all of Europe during World War II. Many of the Jewish resisters that made it out alive from the ghetto joined the bigger resistance that the larger Polish population was leading outside the walls of the ghetto.

Many resistance members had been waiting a long time to fight and take action against their oppressors the Germans. A resistance member said, “Time dragged while we waited for the moment the great white eagle of Poland would rise” (Kulski 78). The Soviet Air Force bombed

Warsaw in attempts to weaken the Germans so that their rapid approach into Warsaw would be easier. The resistance timed their uprising to coincide with the Soviet advance into Warsaw. As a member of the resistance describes, “Word came down our chain of command setting W-Hour for 17:00 August 1, 1944, Our time had finally come” (Kulski 78). The Polish people wanted to free Warsaw before the Soviets reached their capital to further demonstrate not only their ability to fight, but their freedom as a sovereign nation. In remembering the beginning of the Uprising,

Kulski stated, “At exactly five o’clock, as originally planned, a wave of explosions and bursts of automatic rifle fire set the stage for the uprising in the whole city” (79). The resistance was successful in capturing the city center, Old Town and the district. They also successfully regained control of the Prudential building, the biggest building in Warsaw and also home of powerful offices. After capturing the Prudential building the uprising started to stumble. The

Germans started receiving reinforcements from Germany, the backup reached Warsaw and attacked the resisters mercilessly. The Germans acted against the resistance with brutal attacks.

But they soon realized that when they killed resisters on the spot, they were experiencing

retaliations from the Resistance force. The Resistance moved to free the remnants of the ghetto and freed 350 Jews. The Germans forcefully used civilians as protection for their tanks and vehicles. Food started to run low and without much help from the Soviets that were just outside city lines the resistance started to starve. On September 8th just fearing more casualties the resisters and the Germans realized they would be unable to break the stalemate. The Germans were willing to give the resistors military combatant status so they qualified under the Geneva

Convention. Fighting ceased on October 2nd ending the Warsaw Uprising. The Germans took the remaining troops to physical work and concentration camps. The Soviets liberated Warsaw from the Germans on January 17th 1945.

When studying the history of the past it is important to not only look at the views of historians, but also the ideas of journalist writing during the time. The newspapers of the time picked up on the slightest hints of foul play that went on when the Soviet army stopped their advance before helping the resistance movement in Warsaw. An American newspaper reported that, “The Soviet Government indicated resentment over reports that the had abandoned Warsaw’s underground army (“Soviet Denies Letting Down Warsaw Army”). Many still believed that lingering resentment from the long-standing history of violence between

Poland and the Soviets lead to the Soviet’s delay in aiding the resisters. In a 1944 a New York

Times article reported “as far as the Soviets were concerned it was not the propitious moment for a Warsaw Uprising” (Demidoff). This newspaper article seemed to suggest that delays from the

Russian side were due to the fact that the Russians did not want the Polish to liberate themselves.

Since the Ghetto Uprising played an important role in setting the bases for the Warsaw

Uprising, it was necessary to more closely examine this topic. In Joanna Green’s oral history project Mrs. Sally Kriegar a Polish Jew in the Warsaw ghetto stated, “There was an older

woman, and she must have been a widow, she tried to open her mouth and then the German right away pulled out the gun and killed her on the spot, and he said, "Take this trash away". And there was a janitor to do so”(25). This quote depicts the terrible atrocities that the German soldiers afflicted upon the Jews daily. The Germans forced the Jewish community to view these atrocities. They wanted to quell any uprising or chance of resistance through fear. For the Jews,

“the fear of being dragooned aggravated the numerous other hardships and uncertainties of daily life" (Dawidowicz 231). These acts became normal in Poland under the German occupation. Due to the horrible conditions living under German rule, the Polish people believed that a resistance movement like Warsaw Uprising was necessary.

In history it is important to look at multiple views from different perspectives written by credible historians that have written on the topic. Looking at a diverse group of ideas and perspectives is important because it allows us create new ideas and connect other events. For example, Richard Lukas had a strong opinion that the Warsaw Uprising was the “event which marked the beginning of the Cold War” (Lukas 13). He has a strong view that the Russians not intending to help the Polish was purely political. The Soviets not reaching Warsaw timely,

“stemmed primarily from political, not military motivation and insured Moscow a dominant role in determining the political future of Poland”(Lukas 13). Other historians look at these events from the perspective of the Polish and their motivations to fight. As historian Andrzej Chmielarz states, “the uprising was an impulse for independence whose aim was not merely the overthrow of German occupation” (Chmielarz 415). Chmielarz believed that attacking the Germans because of their oppression was a major factor in the Uprising, but also that the Polish also wanted to make a statement to the Soviets that they wanted to control their own political future. These

historiographers offer different and interesting opinions about Poland’s motivation for the uprising and its influence on future wars.

In many different parts of the world with many different types of people there has been a universal struggle to obtain freedom. Poland has experienced multiple cases of losing its sovereignty and having to fight and rebel for its own freedom. Poland's constant oppression and freedom struggle is important to learn about because in history main other nations have dealt with similar problems. We should want to learn about the past to be able to proceed into the future. The Warsaw Uprising marked a historical moment in Polish history and the Wolds. Many men and women died for their country and its freedom from oppression of the Third Reich.

Interview Transcription Interviewee: Julian Kulski Interviewer: JC Butz Location Dr. Kulski’s home Washington DC Date: December 17, 2015 This interview was reviewed and edited by JC Butz

JC Butz: This is JC and I am Interviewing Dr. Julian Kulski as part of the American Century

Oral History Project. The interview took place on December 17, 2015 in Washington DC. Tell me about you childhood?

Julian Kulski: Well I was very fortunate I was born in 1929. And as you know after the first

World War Poland got its independence after 120 years of being under the occupation of true powers. And my father fought in the Polish legions in the First World War and then in the

Polish-Soviet war that followed. So he was the vice-mayor of Warsaw and before when I was born, I was born in a very fortunate circumstance as my parents were very well off. They had a new house and I was brought up in the spirit of fighting for freedom and independence. I was also a Boy Scout and the Polish Boy Scouts were the closest to the original Boy Scouts which were set up in the end of the in South Africa they were a Para-military organization.

JB: Can you tell what a typical day was like in Poland before the War?

JK: Well as I said I was a Boy Scout who went to school. During the summer we went for the holidays to the mountains to ski and the Baltics in the summer for swimming. Ever day was,

Well I was ten years old when the war broke out. So it was just a regular life of a kid who growing up but growing up in the spirit of fighting for independence. I wanted to become an

army officer. I was hoping there would be war so I could fight like my father did as he was on of my models. I also had some uncles who fought for independence.

JB: In your book you said “teachers took ever opportunity to tell us about our nations past” can you elaborate on that?

JK: Well it was a question of bringing us up to be proud of our history. Poland at one time was a great empire. It was also the first country that had democracy. Immediately after the American constitution the polish constitution came out. And with the constitution caused Catherine the

Great the empress of Russia to attack Poland and take over because of the democracy. So we were taught history as a way of being grateful to the people who fought and died in order so that we could be free. In the 19th century there were two uprising at the end of the 18th century there was an uprising too. So we were brought up in the sprit of uprisings and of fighting in order to maintain freedom.

JB: The Germans invaded Poland on September 1, 1939 how did you feel after learning the news.

JK: How did I feel? Well it happened to be summer vacation and we were out in a beautiful little town on the called cashemius. The way I found out the war had started I had my little girl friend and the two of us picking mushrooms as we heard this terrible roar of the Germans bombers flying along the Vistula towards.

(Phone Rings)

JK: Will that disturb you?

JB: No it is ok

|5:10|

JK: Ok my wife will pick it up. They flew very low in order to not be found by the anti-air craft guns. It terrified me so we hit the ground and the trees started bending. So we ran home and I found out that the war had started on 1st of September.

JB: Did you know that the war was going to happen?

JK: No it was not a question of when my father being vice mayor of the city was sent 2-3 years before to Germany to buy streetcars and busses. He saw the German army and he felt that there would be war. He was the head of the anti-aircraft defense of Warsaw for a couple of years before so he brought us in to the county place. A day later his boss the mayor sent a car to pick him up. He left us there during the actual bombing of the city. He was in Warsaw, but we were out in the country.

JB: When you arrived back in Warsaw how did you feel seeing your city after being attacked?

JK: Well it was a terrible shock because the same car with my father came to pick us up. And we drove into the city. It had been damaged. We saw the damage of the of the first city the Second

World War that was badly destroyed. About 10% of the buildings were down. (Car Honks) And there were still a lot of dead people and dead horses on the street. So it was a big shock. Our house was not hit by a bomb but it did not have any windows, it immediately not the same place.

JB: How did your social life change with the occupiers?

JK: It changed tremendously because two months after the invaders, the Germans came in to

Warsaw. They arrested my father’s superior the mayor and my father became the mayor. The

Germans immediately closed all schools because they felt that they were preparing us to be the slaves and eventually to exterminate all Poles. So that they would have the land for they’re eastern expansion so there was no need for school. So my life immediately changed. I would do a lot of reading and I went to the library. But also I and my buddy would go around town going around picking up unexploded bombs bringing them home to his garage. We would open them up and take out the powder and make our own bombs. Finally one of theses bombs exploded and blew one of his arms and a leg. Fortunately I was not there. My father decided that he was to busy taking care of me and taking care of the whole city. So he let me live with my pre war scoutmaster by the name of Ludwick Burger. Who was a great hero to all the youth, he was an actor he knew polish history. He was just loved by all. After the war he started the first company of underground army mainly composed of scouts and girl guides. I was very fortunate to live with him. I was about 11/12 when I moved into his house. I asked him when I was 12 if I could join the army. He said I would have to go and ask your parents. Even though I was young I was

tall the way you are. My father gave me permission because he had given his own youth fighting the Russians before and during the First World War. So that was a big change in my life.

JB: During my research I found that the Germans only allowed Aryan that were non-German to eat 669 calories a day. What can you tell me about you food quality?

|10:10|

JK: Well the food but not only the whole living standard the Germans cut the salaries of the city hall workers including my father in half. The prices had gone up. His salary would only last for one week. The ration cards would get you one egg a month just completely inadequate. My mother got herself a little farm outside the city. She would grow vegetables and some meat and she would then smuggle it to us. She had to sell her jewelry to keep us going.

JB: Four Hundred Thousand Jews were put in the Warsaw Ghetto how did thus make you feel?

JK: Well first of all there were no Jews in Poland. They were Polish citizens of we called them

Messianic faith. They were Polish Jews. Warsaw had a great deal of Jewish Polish citizens 1/3 of the population out of 2 million. When the Germans developed the ghetto they had to move Polish

Christians out of the ghetto quickly to move the Jewish citizens in to the ghetto. They were terribly crowded. One of the people of the families I knew was my little girl friend. Now here father was Polish officer who was a and they were Christians but the Germans

considered anybody who was third generation Jews a Jew now. So there were a lot of Christians in the ghetto to.

JB: About Thirteen Thousand Jews were killed in the Ghetto Uprising how did you react to the uprising?

JK: Well by that time most of the old people were gassed in the death camps. The young people that had contacts supplied them with arms and maps of the bunkers so they were prepare for the uprising for a long time. I was in the fire department by the time I was 14. I needed a job that the

Germans accepted. That was reasonable that I could go and move were ever there was a fire. We would take the fire truck to the fires and smuggle things to the young Jews underground fighters needed. I do not know about 13,000 fighters but definitely civilians. My girlfriend was killed the last day of the Uprising. But a lot of the freedom fighter were able to get out through the sewers and later on they fought with me in the 44 uprising.

JB: What do you recall of your emotion when you saw the ghetto burning?

JK: Well it was absolutely horrible. Whenever I went in the ghetto before that I saw this hellish condition. When the Germans started burning the ghetto they were also burning people inside so that was a terrible smell for almost 3 weeks all over the city. Also the city was covered with burning papers. When we went in the streetcar outside the wall, we would see on one side the

German artillery firing into the ghetto. And on the other side we would see the Jewish freedom

fighters fighting the Germans. We considered anybody inside the ghetto Polish citizens the way we were. We did everything we could to help. But it was not enough.

JB: Mrs. Sally Krieger a Polish Jew that survived the occupation said “There was once an older woman, she must have been a widow that was brought in from Germany and she tried to open her mouth and speak in German and right away pulled out the gun and killed her on the spot,

And he said, "Take this trash away". And there was a janitor to do so. Did you witness any acts like this?

JK: Oh yes when I was inside the ghetto I saw the Germans kicking pregnant women in the stomach till they died in front of my eyes. I also saw the Hitler youth who use the ghetto as a firing range. They would just shoot anybody that was moving on the street for firing practice.

JB: How did life outside the ghetto change after the Ghetto Uprising?

|15:45|

JK: Well the German terror was getting worse and worse and our own terror at the Germans was getting worse to. Our underground courts would sentence a lot of these top Germans as War

Criminals. By that time I was just out of the Gestapo prison and I joined the commandos. And one of our main jobs was blowing up trains and killing traitors plus war criminals. We did this and the truth passed.

JB: You talked about underground trials can you talk about that more?

JK: We had an underground courts system. They would pass sentences mostly death sentences and they would send a commando unit that had the unpleasant job of executing them either on the streets or in their homes.

JB: Did you worry about your father and the high position he held in Warsaw?

JK: Well my father had the most difficult job in Poland and Europe during the Second World

War. Because after the Mayor was shot in 1939 the Germans wanted him to become the mayor.

He checked with the Polish underground government and they told him to do it. A lot of the population did not know that he was a high-ranking member of the .

They thought that he was a collaborator. And of course, nobody could tell. Even I did not know what he was doing. It was very difficult for him. The Gestapo arrested him constantly because they suspected.

JB: As historian Andrzej Chmielarz talks about the Polish spirit he states, “Indeed, it was the uprisings that was primarily responsible for forging the Polish national spirit and the Poles’ love for freedom and independence” (415) how does this statement make you feel.

[20:00]

JK: As I said the first uprising was started against Catherine the Great by the Polish American general Tadeisz Kosciusko, Kosciuszko fought with Washington he was an engineer and built

West Point. He also fought in the southern campaign. He was the American General. And after the war of independence in America he went back to Poland to start an uprising. He was very badly wounded; he was taken prisoner He was in Moscow. He was a very good friend of

Jefferson. They maintained connections by letters writing. Eventually he was allowed to go back to the United States, but that was the first uprising was in 1797 the next uprising was in 83 and it lasted for about a year. The Russians had so many more troops and armament that the gain must have been won. Most of the people that had fought in the uprising had been sent to Siberia. In

1863 was the last uprising before the ghetto and my uprising. That one was also eventually ended in a disaster but it was a constant attempt to regain freedom and independence.

JB: W hour came on August 1, 1944 what was it like waiting for the orders.

|20:23|

JK: Well I was in the commando unit and we were the best armed because of our constant fighting. We were put on emergency stand by. My whole platoon was stationed in my house. So we were preparing cleaning our weapons. The uprising was delayed for a couple of days but eventually on the 1st of august we were told that out platoon selected with four other men had been selected to transport grenades and weapons from our head place to a center place we could distribute them to the other units. While we were transporting the weapons the Germans saw us.

We started the uprising in my part of the city at 2 o’clock rather then 5 o’clock so that

forewarning the Germans. This was responsible for a large part of why eventually the uprising did not succeed.

JB: Can you recall how you felt when you received the order?

JK: Well we had been waiting for 5 years we had been training for 3 years. We were all very happy that finally we would be able to get even with the Germans for what they had done to my family and my friends. We were very happy to start. I was to young to know about the strategic reasons. We were expecting help from a Polish army from the Great Britain and also the

Russians. Also the Russians encouraged us to start the uprising because they were one the other side of the river we were assured that they would come help us just like the American did in

Paris.

JB: In your book I read about your columns exchange with the Hungarians can you elaborate on that?

JK: Oh that was after the first day of the uprising after the first day it failed and we had to leave the city to go to a large forest near by. We were coming back and we ran in to this German unit and I thought we would start shooting but it was the Hungarians who were fighting on the

Germans side. They hated the Germans too, so they wished us luck and they let us pass. We tried to have them come to our side to fight the Germans but it was too much.

JB: How did you feel walking away from that conversation?

JK: Well it was by that time a 30-hour march. We were hungry, it was raining. I was cold.

Actually I was asleep most of the time during the march. I kept falling forward into the guy in front of me. Although I did not pay much attention.

JB: Can you describe to me how you felt seeing the Polish flag flying over Warsaw again?

|25:20|

JK: Well it was hard to describe the joy. Wonderful.

JB Can you elaborate a little more on that?

JK: Well I mean after 5 years of being a slave and after seeing the symbol of Poland flying on all the buildings. The people welcomed us in with open arms when we came back from the woods on the 3rd day. It was great.

JB: I read in my research that as we touched on early that members of the resistance used sewers to get around. Here is a picture of one Example. Do you have a personal story about this?

("Churchill … Polish – German Border to Be Redrawn")

JK: No I myself did not go through the sewers but my father did. He was caught in the city hall, which was in the center of Warsaw, where the worst fighting for the first month was where my father was his whole area was destroyed. He decided to go with a number of his friends through the sewer. The sewer workers before the war knew how to go through the sewer. They were very low and they were full of junk. Many people died in the sewer slipping. My father slipped. His body was carted towards the Vistula. He ran into a barricade that the Germans set up for that reason. To prevent moving. He was badly wounded in his leg. Fortunately his body miraculously

only damaged his leg. It was a side sewer that linked back to where his friend were, they pulled him out. But as soon as he got back to where I was fighting. Fortunately there was medicine so he did not get gangrene.

JB: In my research I found this quote from Richard Lukas “Soviet delays in aiding the resistance stemmed primarily from political, not military motivation and insured Moscow a dominant role in determining the political future of Poland”(Lukas 13). How do you feel about this quote?

JK: Well definitely, in the 1921 war Stalin was out side of Warsaw. The red army got that far.

They were beaten by the Polish army. He got hell from Lenin. He hated the Poles. He wanted to take Poland in his plan for the rest of Europe. So on the 17th of September there was a rare moment that passed. The Red Army hit the Polish army in the back. They took many prisoners.

Among them were 15,000 Polish officers that 6 months later they murdered one by one, they shot in the back. They buried them in the big grave that was discovered by the Germans in 1943, when they were withdrawing. So when Stalin was planning to occupied Poland. He knew since we were fighting the Germans we would also fight them. So he let the Germans eliminate the

Polish underground army and the resistance.

JB: How did you feel after learning the Russians were not going to help?

JK: Well I saw them on the other side of the river. I was one of the observers I was on a tower.

They just let us starve. The last two weeks of the fighting of the two mouths. They would send

First World War planes. They would drop some arms and food with out parachutes and they killed some of us with them. But they wanted to prolong this as long as possible. They did not take over Warsaw as soon as we were captured because they wanted the Germans to level the city. The Germans continued for two mounts to blow up every building that was still standing.

JB: How did you react to the surrendering of the resistance?

|30:15|

JK: It was a tragedy Well for 5 years I had been ready to die we knew we were going to be killed. It was a question of sooner or latter. The German were not taking us prisoners. They considered us bandits and terrorists. So if we surrendered they would shoot us right there on the spot. We knew that the whole idea was that we were told the General in charge of the Polish army decided to capitulate. We did not believe them we though we would all be killed.

Furthermore we were ready to die but not be captures. During the negotiation for capitulation. the general was able to surrender to the Wehrmacht not to the SS who were fighting but we were given the Geneva convention as prisoners of war. Most of us were sent to POW camps.

JB: Can you describe your experience in the cattle car being transported to the POW camp?

JK: Well by that time I had the beginning of Tuberculosis. I had a huge high fever. I was very week for two months of fighting. I had very little food, we lived on tomatoes when we were in the trenches. I was terribly sick. It was over crowded. Just hard to remember it but when we arrived in the prisoner of war camp which was right in the middle of Germany between

Vandenberg and Berlin. They did not have enough building for us. So for the first 3 nights I had to sleep in the open. It was November cold and raining. Somebody finally got me to a so-called hospital for the TB. I was lucky because 6 weeks later the girls who were nurses and members of the underground army who were also taken prisoner arrived at the camp. Two of them were identical twns and fool the Germans standing in line for soup and get a third cup of soup for me.

The Germans could not count, and that was what kept me going. And kept me alive, they basically saved my life.

JB: Can you describe to me how you felt after getting out of the cattle car after so many days?

JK: Well I could barely walk. I was basically carried by my buddies. They said we had to dig little trenches around were we slept so the water would run off. I thought I was dying. the the whole 8 months in the prisoner of war camp

JB: You spent 8 mounts in the camp?

JK: Yes

JB: Can you tell me about your decision to sneak onto the American refugee truck?

|34:15|

JK: Well it was 5 days before the end of the war. The war was still going on. The American army was on the move. But the Germans were still putting up a very strong resistance on both fronts. The American army had over one hundred thousand prisoners in that camp. It was the largest international camps in Germany. They decided that they did not want to have GI”s to fall into the hand of the Red Army. It was East Germany that was going to be liberated by the

Russians. So the American army flew 5 paratroopers to the camp. They were caught and went to go talk to the German commander of the camp. Explained that the American army was willing to send 1,000s of trucks into the middle of German to liberate them before the Russians got to them. They were all standing in fount of the gate waiting. I had a buddy from Chicago a polish

American. As the last truck was leaving he beckoned me on. He and another Polish-American picked me up and threw me on to the truck. I left my own buddies and things in the camp. I could not wait to leave. The American divers were not suppose to be armed but they all had machine guns in there trucks. Whenever we went through little Germans towns that were still way behind the lines, It took us 4 hours to get to the American line they would stop and disarm the German officers. I was terrified because I though we would be sent back. That night we got back into *______. My father on my last day in Warsaw told me if I survived TB and the camp not to come back to Poland until it was free and independent. He knew the Russians were going to occupy. He told me to go to his brother the ambassador in London. The Americans who got me out of the camp were going to take me to straight to America. But I tried to explain that I did not know English so I explained with my hand that I wanted to go to London, not New York. I met couple of British GI”s. Tony’s, told them and they smuggled me into England.

JB: Is there anything that you think I missed that would better help me understand the Warsaw

Uprising?

JK: Well there are still Historians and people who are questioning the destruction of a beautiful city one of the powers of Easter Europe and the loss of 250 thousand of the population was worth it. My answer is this. Unless you have lived as a slave for 5 years you have no right to pass judgment. I think it was absolute necessary if we had not been given an order. We kids would have started fighting and it would have been even worse. Furthermore the solidarity movement gives credit to us for maintaining the national identity and the history. So I feel it was a tragic thing but my people were not political scientist or historians. We just wanted to be free.

JB: So you believe that the youth would have fought if there had been no order.

JK: I am afraid so. I believe that some of us would have been slaughtered. Furthermore the

Germans knew there was going to be an uprising but they did not know when. While we were still in emergency waiting they ordered all of the young men, all the men from 14-60 to dig trenches on this side of the river because the Russians were coming. My father told me you do not go and do not let anyone else go. We were sure they were going to murder all the men right there. Because they knew there was going to be an uprising.

JB: Did the Germans take another measures to prevent an uprising?

|40:30|

JK: They tried to get traitors and spies in the underground. But what was very stupid of them was after they did all this terrible acts for 5 years. We fought for 63 days and destroyed all of

Warsaw. Then they wanted us to fight against the Russians. Crazy, And I think that is why they were willing to capitulate and take us as prisoner of war because we were hoping like all the other Eastern Europeans that cooperated with the Germans after five years of fighting.

JB If I need anymore information am I free to call you?

JK: Certainly, Can you use the film I made?

JB Yes Mrs. Donner gave it to me.

JK: Ok great I recommend you want that two.

JB Thank you

Interview Analysis

"I wasn't afraid because, frankly, one had little to lose,” a survivor of the 1944 Warsaw

Uprising, stated in a interview years after the war (Wanda Gutowska). She and many others joined the fight because they had lived under oppression for 5 years and had lost everything.

After witnessing the burning of the Warsaw ghetto and the many atrocities that the Germans committed, many felt compelled to fight. Stories like Mrs. Gutowska and Dr. Kulski are important stories to learn about because when these everyday workers and civilians die, their stories die with them. Getting a first person account of the stories that do not make it into the big textbooks are just important as the big picture stories that can take up an entire chapter.

Capturing the actual lives of the people witnessing history and living through the hard times are important, as they offer insights into current political problems . Also, comparing what people who lived through the event and what historians say about the event gives us an opportunity to analyze the two ideas side to side. Dr. Kulski’s story of his actions in the Warsaw Uprising and his ideas of what was going on at the time in all of Europe reinforces what the historians state.

Julian Kulski a grew up in the high end side of Warsaw. His father “fought in the Polish legions in the First World War” (1). He was a known hero and became a politician after the war.

When the Second World War broke out in Europe Mr. Kulski’s father was soon the Mayor of

Warsaw. He states “A lot of people did not know that he was a high ranking member of the underground army”(9). He kept his image as a Nazi-Sympathizer for his protection. Julian soon joined the resistance because of his father's background in previous wars. Dr. Kulski, in the interview, stressed the importance of the national spirit of rebelling against tyranny. He had been

“waiting for 5 years” for the order to rebell from the higher command. It was in the national

character of the Polish to want to fight for their freedom, as Dr. Kulski expressed anticipation of the moment when he could join the fight . He was very insistent that if the higher command had not given the order that the younger generation would have rebelled anyways. He says “I believe that some of us would have been slaughtered” (19). He felt very intimate about the fact that after living under oppression for “5 years” that you are ready to die for you and your country's freedom. He joined the resistance at the age of 12 to be like his father and to help his country. He experienced many violent battles many that ended up stalemates in the streets of Warsaw. The stalemates were not leading to much and the Germans needed to start focusing on the Russians advance and not the Polish resistance. The Germans promised to protect those who capitulated under the Geneva conventions. They all soon were “sent to POW camps in Germany” (15). Dr.

Kulski describes the feeling of being cramped in a small cattle car with to many other people in the same car with him. He stated “I was dying. the the whole 8 months in the prisoner of war camp” (16). He suffered from Tuberculosis that practically killed him. Dr. Kulski shows that the suffering of the Poles did not end with the capitulation of the resistance. His description of his escape from the POW camp is truly incredible. He was smuggled out by some Americans that were being liberated by the American Army. Dr. Kulski proclaimed,” I could not wait to leave”

(17) when he leaved the camp.

The issue of the Russians not helping the resistance when they reached the outskirts of

Warsaw has been discussed by many historians. The Underground Polish Army had planned to have the uprising just before the Red Army arrived in Warsaw. They figured that they could recapture their capital then fight along side the Soviets and continue to push out the Germans.

When the Russians neared Warsaw they stopped, citing that they told the uprising leaders to wait. Many historians believe that the Soviets lasting hate for the Pols and their desire to have

political control of Poles future lead to the delay. As historian Richard Lukas states “Soviet delays in aiding the resistance stemmed primarily from political, not military motivation and insured Moscow a dominant role in determining the political future of Poland”(13). He believes that the Soviets let the Germans crush the resistance in an attempt to have more control over

Poland's future. Lenin had given a lot of grief to Stalin because of his loss to the Poles earlier in the war. As Dr Kulski stated, “[Stalin] knew since we were fighting the Germans we would also fight them. So he let the Germans eliminate the Polish underground army and the resistance”(14). Kulski and many other soldiers knew that the Russians wanted the Germans to eliminate them so that the Russians could easily move into Poland. Comparing the historian's opinions and the accounts of people who witnessed the events is in important as it keeps historians balanced. Dr. Kulski reinforces what Mr. Lukas says about the political motivations for the Soviet’s delay in aiding the Polish.

The Polish national spirit throughout history has always been represented in the Poles’ tendency to fight against oppression and rebel for freedom. Throughout Polish history, there have been many uprising against their oppressive invaders. The Polish people value their freedom because they have seen it taken from them many times. When Andrzej Chmielarz talks about the Polish spirit he states, “Indeed, it was the uprisings that was primarily responsible for forging the Polish national character and the Poles’ love of freedom and independence” (415).

The Warsaw Uprising was a movement that many Poles revere as a great moment in their country's history; a moment where everyone in Warsaw worked together to attempt to regain freedom. Dr Kulski stated, “Well, there are still Historians and people who are questioning the destruction of a beautiful city one of the powers of Easter Europe and the loss of 250 thousand of the population was worth it. My answer is this. Unless you have lived as a slave for 5 years you

have no right to pass judgment. I think it was absolutely necessary if we had not been given an order” (18). Fighting for freedom may have come at a cost but for the people of Poland who had lived as “slaves” for five years, they knew the value of freedom was worth the sacrifice. While not only causing the loss of life of Polish people, the uprising also destroyed a historical city and with it important cultural artifacts on Poland. Dr. Kulski is reinforcing the statement by historian

Chmielarz that part of the Polish national character is to rebel under tyranny and to always fight for freedom.

Through doing this project, I have learned a significant amount of information about a fascinating aspect of World War II that not many people have heard of. I also got the opportunity to meet a truly incredible man. His actions as a young man and his work to defend his nation and his people were truly amazing. I believe that without this project, I would have never found out about this incredible story that played out in a beautiful city. Without meeting and interviewing

Dr. Kulski I do not think I would have the respect for freedom I have now. The terrible things that he witness in order to attain his freedom is tremendous. I have learned a lot through this project, not only the academic reasons but also planning and getting a big project done. I believe that the Oral History Project is an important learning experience that empowers students to learn and challenge themselves in a constructive way.

Appendix 1

This is a map of areas that were controlled by the Resistance during the uprising. August 1 – October 2 1944 ("Interview with Harrie Teunissen, Map Collector")

Appendix 2

This is a map of the Warsaw Ghetto that was established in 1939. It held all the Jew’s in Warsaw during the occupation till their deportation. Also were the Ghetto Uprising occurred. (Teunissen)

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