REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS• OF TYNWALD COURT.

Douglas, Tuesday, March 1'7, 1953.

Present: The Governor (Sir Ambrose propose, as our agenda is very long, and Flux Dundas, K.C.I.E., C.S.I.). In the we do not want to rush it, that the Court Council: The Lord Bishop (the Right should•sit..a little later, up to 7 o'clock Rev. J. R. S. Taylor, D.D.), Deemster Sir thE evening, with half-an-hour interval Percy. Cowley, C.B.E., Deernster John- for tea, and the same to-morrow, which son, 0.B.E., the Attorney-General (Mr S. I hop d will be long enough for our busi- J. Kneale, 0.B.E.), Messrs J. F. Crellin, ness. If not, then we will sit again on M.C., R. Kneen, G. Higgins, and J. Cal- ' Thursday. (Hear,. hear.) • lister, with Mr J. N. Panes, M.A:, Gov- ernment Secretary and Clerk to the Council. In the Keys: The Acting-., PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT. Speaker (Mr E. B. C. Farrant, M.B.E.), The Governor: I have the honour to Messrs T. F. Corkhill, H. K. Cor- lay before the Court:— lett, L. Gerrard, F. H. Crowe, T. • Q. Cannell, R. C. Cannell, A. C. Bye-law of the Isle of Man Harbour Teare, H. C. Kerruish, Mrs A. Board, dated 18th December, 1952. Bridson, Messrs J. A. C. K. Nivison, J. The Isle of Man Water Order No. 4, H Nicholls, T., E. Brownsdon, A. Moore,' -dated 13th February, 1953, made by the T. A. Coole, C. C. McFee, R. E. Cottier, Isle of Man Local Government Board. A. S. Kelly, T. C. Cowin, W. C. Craine, . The Parrots (Prohibition of Imports) and G. Taggart, with Mr F. B. Johnson, Regulations, 1953, dated 13th February, M.A., Secretary and Clerk to Tynwald. 1953, made by the Isle of Man Local Gov- The Governor: Mr A. J. Teare, the: ernment Board. Speaker, Mr J. B Bolton and Mr Corrin The Local Government Board's ap- are all sick, and I am sure the Court proval to petitions as set out in the will wish them a speedy recovery., agenda. (Hear, hear.) The Newtown, Santon, Drainage DiE- • : Wet Order, 1953. WELCOME TO MR A. CECIL TEARE. (MEMBER FOR. RAMSEY).. The Governor. May I welcome Mr A. BILLS- FOR SIGNATURE. Cecil Tease, the hon. member for Ayre, The Governor: The following five whose brother was a distinguished mem- Bills are for signature:— ber of this Court for many years, and Shop Hours Bill; Children Bill; Bas- Who has already made his' own mark in tardy Bill; Adoption 'Bill;. Isle of Man the courageous editing of one of the College of Domestic Science Bill. Island's leading newspapers. (Hear, hear.) Mr A. Cecil Teare: Thank you, Your ROYAL ASSENT TO ACT. Excellency, for your kind welcome. The Govetnor: I have the honour to announce to Tynwald that in accord- ance with the terms of section 2 of the CONDUCT OF THE COURT'S Acts of Tynwald (Emergency Promulga- BUSINESS. tion) Act, 1916, that the Royal Assent The Governor: NoW, before we pro- Was given to the following Act on the ceed, I would like to say a word about 1111) of February, 1953-L--Action of Arrest the conduct of the business before us. I Act, 1953: •

Welcome to Mr A. Cecil Teare (Member for Ramsey).—Conduct of the Court's Business.—Papers Laid before the Court—Bills for Signature.—Royal Assent to Act. 432 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953.

MILITARY SERVICE—QUESTION BY plication been made with the approval MR MeFEE. of the isle of Man Airports Board? (3) Mi McFee asked the Lieut.-Gov- Is not the action taken in this manner ernor:—(a) Will His Excellency inform in conflict with the assurance given to the Court if it is the intention of Her Tynwald by the chairman of the Isle of Majesty's Government to extend the Man Airports Board in 1949? (4) Will provisions of the Military Service Act the chairman arrange for the application for a further period of five years? (b) to be withdrawn, pending consideration If so, will His Excellency give the Court of the matter by Tynwald? an assurance that ample opportunity Mr Cowin: The answer Lo (1) is will be given for Tynwald fully to de- "yes"; the answer to (2) is "yes"; the bate this question before such legisla- answer to (3) and (4) is "no." tion is extended to the Isle of Man? and (c) Will His Excellency state whether Mr Kerruish: Can the hon. member the extension of the Military Service for North Douglas explain how the Act contemplated by Her Majesty's Gov- Pnswers can be "yes" and '-'no" in this ernment will be extended to the Isle of case? Man by Order in Council with or with- The Governor: Have you anything out the approval of Tynwald? further to say, Mr Cowin? The Governor: (a) The Statement on Defence, 1953, which was approved by Mr Cowin: Yes, Your Exceleucy, I Parliament on 5th March, 1953, states, would draw the Lttention of the mem- "The Government will accordingly, in bers of this Court to the verbatim re • due course, propose to Parliament that port of Tynwald, April 20th, 1946, on the present national service scheme theAirports Committee's estimates, page should be extended for a further five 671, when the Governor sail:— years." (b) It is the intention to pro- I! the Court can be assured that there will vide an opportunity for Tynwald to de- be no further extensions or the provision of a bar without notice being given to Tyn- bate the question in due course, and wald I will put the motion. every effort will be made to ensure that this will be arranged in good time. I Now, Your Excellency, I would like to am in touch with the authorities in Lon- draw the attention of the Court to, and don. (c) It has of recent years been would like to quote from., the Annual the usual practice for Her Majesty's Report of the Isle of Man Airports Board Government to consult the Isle of Man ended 31st March, 1951. The report was Government before extending Imperial dated the 30th of November, and was legislation to the Island; there is no laid before Tynwald, and approved, on reason-to think that any departure from the 18th of March, 1952. tinder the head- this practice will take place on this oc- ing, "Facilities for Passengers," that casion or that Her Majesty's Govern- report said:— ment intend to impose an extension of During the past few years the Board have National Service Registration on the received many complaints and adverse Island if Tynwald expresses a contrary .criticism dtte to the lack of licensing facilities at Ronaldsway airport which are obtainable wish. I will ensure that full weight is at every other airport of any importance in given to the views expressed by Tyn- Great Britain. Many delays in services are wald when the time comes. occasioned during inclement weather, and visitors frequently complain that the facili- ties at Ronaldsway airport are inadequate on ALCOHOL LICENCE FOR RONALDS- such occasions. In view of these facts the Board intend to permit the tenant of the WAY AIRPORT.—QUESTION BY airport restaurant to make application to the MR McFEE. Licensing Bench for the, necessary licence. Mr McFee asked the chairman of the Airnorts Board (Mr T. C. Cowin):—(1) That was approved, Your Excellency, by Is the Isle of Man Airports Board aware Tynwald. No member of the Court took that application has been made to the exception to that cluse, and there- Licensing Court for a general public- fore— house licence in respect of the Airport Deemster Johnson: You say it was ap- Cafe at Ronaldsway? (2) Has the ap- proved. When was it approved?

Military Service—Question by Mr McFee.—Alcohol Licence for Ronaldsway Airport—Question by Mr McFee. - TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. -433

M-r,4 CoWin' - Ozi the - 18th of March, Such sum to be in addition to the"suin of 4-4.700 voted by Tynwald on the 17th October. 1952, Your Excellency. I am quoting now 1950. ' from the report of the Isle of Man Air- ports Board, which was laid before the This additional £580 is due to the in- Court and passed. creased cost of labour and materials. Deemsier Johnson: Before the Court Mr Kelly seconded. and passed! What does the hon. mem- The resolution was carried. ber mean by the word "paSsed"? Mr Cowin: It was approved insofar LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD. as it was not rejected. The attention of INSPECTORS' SALARIES. the Court was drawn to the fact that we - Mr Crellin: I beg to move:— intended to permit our tenant to apply ; That in accordance with the terms of for a licence, and no merliber to* section 20 of the Local Government Con- ception to that: I am. sure that- every solidation Act, 1916, as amended by section 2 .,member of the Court would have read of the Local Government Act, 1948. Tynwald the report, and, therefore, would know approveS the payment of' salaries to the in- spectors of-the Isle of Man Local Govern- what was intended. ment .Board in accordance with the follow- Mr Kerruish: Is the hon. member for ing scale, with effect as from the 1st July, North Douglas trying to "pull a fast 1951-- • Two Inspectors—£620 x £20—£675 x £25- one" over the Court? And furthermore, £735 (assimilation to apply). I would point out it has always been said Two Junior Inspectors-425' x £15—£500 that before any application would be (assimiliation to apply). made the formal approval of this Court would be sought, not in a report, but in New scales of salaries for inspectors an application to the Court itself. have been approved both by His Excel- lency and the WhAley Council, but under Mr Corlett: Is the hon. member try- present legislation • it is necessary for ing to draw the conclusion that because me to move this vote in Tynwald. Under a report has been laid on the table of a section of the 1916 Act,-and also in a the Court, that the Court is pledged to ection of the 1949 Act it is provided approve all that is in that report. The that the Board shall from time to time hon. member has• far too much experi- appo'.nt inspectors at such salary as enCe of public life for that. It is a de- Tynwald shall determine. One of the liberate attempt to fool the Court. advantages of Your Excellency and the Mr Cowin: I must take exception to Whitley Council dealing with these that remark, and ask for it to be with- salaries is that the Matter is not dis- drawn. There is no attempt to fool the cussed in public, and I can asLure Your Court. As far 8s. thil Airports Board is Excellency that at the :first- opportunity concerned, we have no axe to grind. the Board are going toiseek.amendments of those particular Acts, because, as 1 The. Governor: The point is that the understand it, those alle the only officers apoliCation would not be made without affected, and it would- be very much notice being given to the Court: • better if the Whiticl."Council had the dealings with all salaries -and not ,just one lot of salaries. It is a purely. formal GOVERNMENT PROPERTY TRUS- matter and I beg. to move the .resolu- TEES. ERECTION OF POLICE tion. HOUSES AT JANET'S CORNER:— Mr Gerrard seconded. — ..SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE. - •- - The resolution was carried, Mr • Higgins: I beg. tti•inove:— ' That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man .he authorised to apPly front the funds standing BRIDE SPECIAL' DRAINAGE.—VOTE to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated OF £4,500 FOR SEWERAGE WORKS. ,Fund, a sum not exceeding £580 for the pur- "pdSe,:'of. 'enabling the Government Property Mr Crellin: I beg to move;— 'Trast.ceS, to complete the erection of a police That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be office 'and a pair of semi-detached houses at authorised to apply from the funds standing net's Coiner, Castletown. to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated

Government Property Trustees—Erection of Police Houses at Janet's Corner: Supplementary Vote.—Local Government Board Inspectors' Salaries.—Bride Special Drainage—Vote of £4,500 for Sewerage Works. .434 TVriwALI5 COURT, ibia. dound a sum not exceeding £4,500 to defray the cost of construction of sewerage works in The Attorney-General: It is the trans- 'the Bride Special Drainage District. fer of an account, what you would cal a journal entry. This resolution and the next one are in The resolution was carried. identical terms, apart from the amounts, and I can deal with ,the two together as far as the explanation is concerned. NEWTOWN, ,SANTON, SPECIAL In the first place, both these schemes DRAINAGE DISTRICT.—VOTE have been approved by the Court. The OF £5,750 FOR SEWERAGE Board received tenders for the schemes WORKS. and accepted the lowest in each case. Mr Crellin: I beg to move:— We found that, in spite of the tact that That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be allowance was made for the cost of the authorised to apply from the funds standing to the credit of the Isle of Man Accumulated schemes in our estirnates, it is really Fund a sum not exceeding £5,750 to defray necessary for us to aly to the Court the cost of construction of sewerage works in the Newtown, Santon, Special Drainage for, this money, which Xs to come out oi District. the Accumulated Fund. We aik for this .sum to be taken from the Accumulated This is in a somewhat similar position. Fund., and as each of 'these sewerage It is only that there are different figures. works is larger than we require for our I beg to move the resolution. . own particular housing needs, we ask Mr R. C. Connell seconded. for the sum of money that was allocated The resolution was carried. in the housing vote. p) these houses, which covered drainage fur the .houses and the sewer in the village, and which NEWTOWN SPECIAL DRAINAGE was made up as follows:—Work already DISTRICT ORDER APPROVED. carried put under the housing contract, The Governer: With the permission E1,66ii; drainage for the houses and of the Court, we will take item No. 3 on the sewer in the village, £2,675 10s; the supplementary agenda, which is -in contingencies, •it:445 10s; a total of the same position. £4,500. I beg to 'move resolution No. V. Mr Crellin: First, I would hie to ask Mr R. C. Cannell seconded. the leave of the Court to deal with this The Acting-Speaker: -!Perhaps I might matter, which must be got, through be allowed to ask the &airman of the to-day. Local Government Boaid about the first Leave was granted. part, in either case, of thee two scheme:- Mr Crellin: I.beg to move:— it appears to me that it is not, in fact, a : (I) That permission be given for the follow- total vote, because the work has already ing item to be considered.' . been carried out in Bride under the (2) That the. Newtown, Santon, Drainage housing contract, and .the moneys are District Order, 1953, dated 13th March, 1953, already expected . under the housing made by the Isle of Man Local Government Board under the Local Government Board vote. It is the same Ay with •Santon. (Special Drainage Districts) Act, 1952, be and Is this merely a bookftig transaction? the same is hereby approved. But on the face of it is diesn't appear to be'that. It would be better, perhaps, if I first of all read sub-section (2) of section 4 of Mr Crellin: I am sorry. It is obviously the Local Government Act, so that hon. a booking tramactiOn. ..1.That should be members will know what this refers to. taken from the housing vote out of This Act was passed by both branches moneys we voted for the purpose. It is of the Legislature, and relates to the a matter of bookkeeping, but obviously taking over of drainage schemes by the the thing' must be straightened up in this Lbcal Government Board. In this sec- waY. tion it is state-I:— - The. Board may, within the period- of one The Acting-Speaker: Will the money year computed from the commencement of :be -paid back into the Accumulated this Act, by orders made from time to time .::Fund? You will be •getting it twice. by the Board with the approval of Tynwald

: Newtown, Santon, Special Drainage District—Vote of E5,750 for Sewer-age Works.—Newtown Special Drainage District Order. .Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. 435 and With the. consent of the Commissioners of the parishes. cOncerned, add to paragraph can, however, say: this much about the AO of sub-section (1). of this section any general financial Position, that on prec- other.special drainage orders and such orders cnt income money is tight. The estimates, hail take effect on such days as may be as they at present stand, are greater specified in the order. than it will be wise to meet, or at least To comply with that Act, we held a It go on meeting much longer, without public inquiry on 28th November, and finding additional sources of income. the Commiisioners have agreed that we am not particularly alarmed at this, be- take over this particular drainage system on the dates specified. I beg to cause expenditure under most heads is Move the resolution standing in my under control, in the sense that we can name.' stop it or reduce it by a change of policy if we so decide. Spending more than Mr Ft. C. Cannell seconded. one gets in any particular year is one The resolution was carried. thing: committing oneself to a mode of life beyond one's income is another. And, that is what we must ,:bewarc of THE ESTIMATES.—STATEMENT BY doing. Economy is essential, but that HIS EXCELLENCY. does not mean the cutting out of useful The Governor: Before we take up the and productive expenditure, nor even of estimates, I might say something about all desirable but unnecessary expendi- the significance of this debate to the ture. I have looked up "economy" in Governor, which I hope will be of as- the Oxford Dictionary, and nowhere i-istance to members. I am aware that among the definitions is -"cutting down I. shall only be asked to give consider- expenditure" given. Economy is manage- ation to each estimate that is passed, but ment of expenditure; the art of manag- I shall not regard such a request lightly. ing the resources of a . people and its The framing of a Budget is not merely Government; the careful management of the counting-up of assets or income on labour, money, time, etc. It is, in fact, the left-hand page, and the cutting dcr.vn and this is my definition, not the Oxford of estimates on the right-hand page to Dictionary's, "wise- spending". The cut- correspond. It is also, and mark the ting down of expenditure may be, word "also," the totting-up of policy on usually is, and is in our case, necessary the.- right-hand page and the search for for securing these ends, but it is not recourses to correspond, on the loft- necessarily economy in itself; in fact if Wand:: Both these aspects must receive it is applied blindly it may very easily due:consideration. To-day's debate, as I have the opposite,effect. A motorist can shall interpret it, deals With -the second "economise"_ in the loose sense of the of these right-hand pages, namely, the word by not putting new tyres on his policy which the Court wish to follow. car; but by the time his old tyres have_ The . coSt of tliat policy has been trans- skidded him into, a lamp-post, his lated into pounds, shillings and pence, economy has gone. So it may be with and is shown under a number of separ- Government expenditur_e; we could do •a ate beads according to Boards; the totals great deal of cutting down which would will ShOw Me, how much money the only involve us in greater expenditure, Colift "wishes-.me to try and find for or severe loss, in the end. But what Merhberri may perhaps feel we must do, to go back to the Oxford that they canna vote responsibly on any Dictionary again, is to "use our particular Board's proposals without resources sparingly, to practise thrift." knowing the overall picture of the Gov- This means cutting out all wasteful and erfrtnent's income, assets and liabilities. a good deal of unnecessary expenditure. But to feel that is to burke the full re- All unnecessary expenditure must be sponsibilities of the debate. I hope to examined with the greatest care, and be-able to take it that when' a resolution from the financial point of view the test is:pas:ied, either with or without amend- which I consider should be applied to it Merits, the Court -re!rards that expendi- are both (a) its bearing on the employ- ttire:as:irifrinSically desirable on its own ment situation; and (b) the extent to merrits,•and wishes _me to make provision which it will give returns either directly bar:it-it:that can pbssibly be done. I or indirectly. If after considering these

The Estimates—Statement by His Excellency. 426 tVNIArAu5 cOurrf, MARC} 17, 1963. • and other relevant factors, the Court deficiency required for the current year'. supports the general policy and the The estimated receipts from landing . detailed proposals set dut in the esti- fees, rentals, etc., is £30,377, which is mates, it will be my duty to try and show how the left-hand page can be £2,509 in excess of the estimated income made to add up to the necessary total. for the current year. As the Court is I have chosen my words carefully and aware, expenditure, including salaries perha"ps made them sound rather heavy. and wages, materials, petrol, oil, tele- If it were not that I am being reported, phones, etc., continues to rise, and the I would say more lightly but less accu- total expenditure of £50,496 is £1,822 in rately: "There isn't enough money for excess of that estimated for the current all this unless our income's going to go year. On the general revenue account up—so please cut out all that you aren't practically the whole of the increase really, really keen bn, and then we will required in the grant over the past five see if we can find Money for the remain_ years can be accounted for by the con- der." It is customary, though not tinued rise in wages and salaries. I am always truthful, to say that one wel- therefore pleased to state that this year conies criticism so long as it is construc- the rise in expenditure will be more tive; on this occasitm only, I shall wel- than offset by the expected increase in come destructive criticism. our income. As the Court will be aware, with the increasing costs of operations with which the air operating companies AIRPORTS BOARD ESTIMATES are faced, it is impossible to increase £31,485. landing charges to the companies with- out such increase being offset by the The Governor: As the hon. member companies by higher air fares, which for North Douglas (Mr Cowin) will, un- are already too high. The income of the fortunately, not be able to be here Board is, therefore, on the same basis as to-morrow, we will take items 14, 20 last year. During the coming summer and 21 on the agenda. it is expected that Ronaldsway Airport Mr Cowin : I beg to move:— will be open for approxiniately, the Same Whereas the Isle of Man Airports Board number of hours per da' as .last sum- have submitted their, estimates of expendi- mer. The cost of operatitig the Airport ture. made up as follolvs, totalling £31,845. for during the peak period k particularly, the purpose of carryii5g out approved policy in the financial year ending 31st March, 1954. depends entirely on weather conditions, 1952-53 and the longer the Airport is open the £20,807 Revenue Acomint £20,119 higher the cost. The cost of diversions 7,533 Loan -Charges 7,566 to Jurby is included in the estimated 1,500 Non - recurring Expenditure 3,800 account which has been laid before you. It is the Board's responsibility to try £29,840 • £31,485 and encourage as many Deople as pos- sible to come to the Island by air, and Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- to do this the Board have to extend cellency to give consideration to the same in every possible facility to the carrying framing the Estimateslfor the year 1953-54. companies during the summer months. The grant requirlid by the Isle of Man Secondly, the sum of £7.,566 has been Airports Board for the purpose of carry- included in the estimates in connection ing out its approved policy for the year with the Board's loan of £130,000, and ending 31st March*, 1954, is £31,485. is made up as follows: Interest, £4,550; Members of the Cotirt have been circu- sinking fund charges, £2,920; registrar lated with copies of the estimates which and trustees' fees, £96; _total, £7,566. I propose taking in three parts. Firstly, This is similar to the amount allowed the amount required for the operation in the current year's estimates. Thirdly, and maintenance of Ronaldsway Air- an amount of £3,800 has been allowed port, staffing of jtirby areodrome for in the estimates for repairs and altera- diversionary. operatiOns, and the admini- tions to the taxi tracks and herd- strative expenses of the Board, is standings at Ronaldsway Airport. This £20,119. This deficiency on the Revenue amount is mainly required for the *ur- Account is £688 less than the estimated chase of tarmac topping and extra taxi

Airports Board Estimates £31,485. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1853. 431' track lighting. For the information of The Governor: I don't think that the Court, the number of services which remarks of that kind have been made will be operated to the Island during the in this Court. coming summer will be greatly in excess of those operated in any previous sum- Mr McFee: Not in this Court. If I mer. Dakota aircraft will be operated have hurt the feelings of the chairman on all main routes for the first time. of the Board I withdraw the remarks. First reports of enquiries and bookings Mr Cowin: Keep to the facts. made by various air companies for the summer months are indeed most en- Mr McFee: During the last few years couraging, and while at this stage it is the question of a licence has been dis- difficult to forecast what the summer cussed three times and thrown out by returns will be, the Board have every Tynwald. Yet in face of that we find reason to believe that the air arrivals that occasional licences have been for 1953 will again be a record. Your granted at the Airport Café' in recent Excellency, I beg to move the resolution days. When we consider that the 'Air- standing in my name. port Café is becorning more and more popular as a rendezvous for socials and Mr Nicholls: I beg to second the reso- dancing for young people, I think the lution, and reserve my remarks. dangers of a licence are increased. I do Mr McFee: I wish to move an amend- not base my attitude only on my own ment in these words, "On condition that assumption, but listen to the words of the application for a licence for the Air- the Chief Constable in his recent report. port Café be withdrawn." In moving He says that last year there was a great this amendment, I would like to say, increase in the number of drunk and first of all, that in many respects I am disorderly cases. There were 54 cases proud of the Airport's Board for their in the Isle of Man and, this is very im- work and for their achievements at our portant, 20 per cent. of them were young modern airport. There is no doubt women. There is also an increase in the whatever, that when one surveys the convictions for driving under the influ- Manx Airport we must realise that the ence of drink. There was a great in- Airports Board is a Board of vision, crease,in the number of those convic- that it is progressive in ideas, and I tions. That is the voice and the warn- have no doubt that when we consider ing of the Chief Constable. Now, Your the building they have just erected, and Excellency, might I ask the Court and which is nearly completed, they are especially the chairman of the Airports looking towards the future. But, un- Board, to listen to the warning of one fortunately, where I , differ from the of our highest officials in the Island, a chairman of the Airports Board is this, High Court judge. I refer to a recent that his future and the future of judgment given by His Honour Deem- members which he represents in- ster Sir Percy Cowley. I have heard cludes a hypothetical travelling public him called many things but never an and society whose only exercise will be advocate for Pussyfootism. In this judg- the tilting of their elbows, and because ment he gravely warns the public that of that they are prepared to allow the drinking hours of this kind must be safety of air travel to be affected. Now, restricted, and yet here we find the in recent days, we find that the chair- chairman of the Airports Board to-day man of the Airports Board has been willing to increase the hours instead of very loud in voicing his opinion as to decreasing them, in face of the warning why we should have English conditions given by a High Court judge. existing in the Isle of Man, when he is Mr Kelly : We haven't got any yet. making reference in his capacity as chairman. of the Employers' Federa- Mr McFee: With regard to the need tion— in the South of the Island, in the Castle- town area, I have just been totting up Mr Cowin: 1 take strong exception to the particulars here,. and I find that that remark. At no time have I made there are 25 public houses, three short such remarks, and I.think the hon. mem- term licences,. and seven retail liquor ber should withdraw that statement. licences for the full year. And one must

Airports Board Estimates £31,485. 438 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953.

realise that, after all, the Airport is not the express wishes of this Court in the very far away from these public houses. past. I think a deliberate attempt has Mr Cowin: It is a long walk. been made to sidetrack the wishes of this Court, and it should be quite Mr Mcree: The travelling public are clear that the Airports Board must in the air no longer than 20 minutes or realise, as I believe they do, that the half an hour, and when they reach their wishes of the Court must not be destination there are ample facilities opposed in this way, Having said that, provided for those who wish to partici- I would go on to compliment the Board pate.. I have pleasure, therefore, in on the new erection they have at recommending to the Court this amend- Ronaldsway. I think it will compare ment. favourably with anything in the British Isle§ when completed. But there is one Mr Cottier: I want to second the question I wOuld like to ask, and that amendment and to be very brief over it. is whether or not it is 'desirable to have The point is, sir, that human nature, an array of gardens in front of this new being what it is, no matter how careful building which will mean considerable that splendid Board we have may be, expense with regard to upkeep and so you are going, vMh that human on, and at the sometime will mean that element, to have some of those fine people who wish to park will have to chaps who are pilots that will want a go on the Creggans section, the drink.. - when front of the Airport could reasonably Mr Nicholls: What about Speke? be made into a car park and so cut down There are two bars there. administration expenses. Another Mr Cottier: Remember those notices small point I should like to make is that we have outside plenty of the churches, I should like the Board, if possible, to "One for the road, and two for the take up with B.E.A. the question of a hospital." Here it might be, "Some for little more elasticity in their adminis- the air, and many for the hospital." I tration at Ronaldsway. During the past believe that anybody going in those year Ronaldsway has frequently been aeroplanes should be perfectly sober. I blanketed in fog and the traVelling would point out to the chairman of the public subjected, through no fault of Airports Board how frail human 'nature their own or of B.E.A., to considerable is„and I want to make this statement, delay. I do think that more thought that` I have been a teetotaller for nany should be paid by the B.E.A. to the yearS. When I used to:indulge, I could conditions which exist at Ronaldsway at least keep my head. There are those when, there could be a delay of two, who cannot. What • a tragedy it would four or six hours. The people could be be for some unfortunate fellow to have told that they should not come to the too' much ' and to get into an aeroplane. Airport instead of waiting there, putting It."would be chaos. I beg that the Air- in time, waiting for further reports ports Board should reconsider their when they know very well that flights decision because it is going to be a are, impossible. There is another small danger to the travelling public and a point on the same subject. While temptation to those fine pilots we all B.E.A. are quite willing to inconvenience the travelling public in that way, they admire. • • will never give way, when the public Mr: Corkhill: I Watild like to support are at fault. May I explain? I know this amendment for ' the simple reason of one case where a young lady had to that was one of those people who travel away to take an examination on thought that ' before anything was done a day ' ticket. She reached the airport it should be brought -beforb Tynwald for one Minute after embarkation time. confirmation .that a .licence should be She, waa - not allowed on the plane, and sought. And for that reason I am going she had to- traVel - the following day on to oppoSe- the reSolution; and support fidr Tare. -(SeVeral Members: "No.") the -.aenOrtdrient".• At the same time the aeroplanes Were .114: r Kerruish::I Wish to support the .frequently % running three and four amendment. • My reason for doing so is hours behind- schedule, and the public the `tactics the Airports Board have had to stand that inconvenience, but employed - to reach their.' ends, despite there was no elasticity. at all in the

- - -- • - • -• • - - • • - tPqrts ,Po.ard • gstirnates :£31,,485, TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953: 439 administration and that particular me an assurance that they. will go into person and others I know all have had the matter and see that the north is not to encounter a substantial amount of forgotten. red tape in that respect. would appeal Deemster Cowley: 1. •did not propose to the Airports Board. to get a little to enter into this debate: But as the more elasticity in the :B.E.A. set up. proposer of the amendment had been That is all I have to say with regard to good 'enough to quOte me, perhaps I the Board except to express the hope might be allowed to say 6n this question that the Court will support Mr McFee's that I am not, as he rightly says, a amendment. pussyfoot. I hope I am a reasonable Mr Gerrard: There is an item at the man'.– But I withdraw nothing of what . bottom of the expenditure column of I said with regard to the opening of the estimates for the Board—R.2 000 for clubs after public houses were closed. contingencies. It seems to be rather a (Hear. hear.) I said it because every- large amount and possibly the chairman one in the Court knows, as I know, that of the Board could give us some idea if you go into some of the clubs you find what it is intended to do with the them empty at 9-30 p.m. and up to 10 money. p.m. But they are crowded as soon as the public hiplines are closed, (Hear, Mr R. C. Cannell: There is one ques- hear.) I said it and I repeat it and I tion I would like to ask. It states that am not ashamed to repeat it. It is not it should be noted that the estimated the object of a club to create places deficiency includes the cost of staffing where people could drink when other Jurby Airport for diversionary. opera- public facilities have been rightly put tions. I have raised the questicin year an end to. (Hear, hear.) On this vexed titter year with the chairman of the Air- question particularly, and I say "vexed," ports Board to see whether he would members feel very strong, conscientious keep the north of the Island in view in views. I am not going to enter any an endeavour to get an air service in the controversy as to whether the action of north. At one time I suggested that it the Board was in defiance in any way might be possible to obtain the services to the wishes of this Court. I interpreted of a helicopter shuttle service to the the last debate as being a promise that north. I am also pleased to state that they would not take any steps to permit my new colleague. Mr Teare, on the a licence to be applied for without in- election platform, brought out that he forming this Court. In their report of was in favour of trying to encourage 1951 they perfectlY frankly stated their the opening of Jurby or an airport in intention, and it was open to any mem- the north of the Island, I wonder ber of this Court to have raised the whether the chairman Would consider, matter. then, if he had decided upon it. instead of making this just a In any event it is here before us now. diversionary airport, establishing a It can be decided. The-whole question permanent airport in the north. is raised by the amendment of the hon. The .Attorney-General: Where? member for Rushen, Mr McFee. I only want to say this, your Excellency. As -Mr Carmen: Jurby or Andreas. I have a reasonable man, I hope, I do want the heard tales that Andreas is not suitable Court to look at this thing not from the as an airport because it is too close to point of view of their particular'. the hills. These tales will not, stand inclinations but from the point of view scrutiny because during the war all of the Isle of Man. We already suffer. types of aircraft landed and took off at a great deal of harm—and I. say this Andreas, driven by young and learning advisedly—from the fact that reasonable pilots, and the only serious accident facilities particularly with meals, are that happened there during the war was not available to visitors to the Isle of through a thoroughly experienced pilot Man on Sundays. If we continue to taking up anLaircraft. The runways refuse to. give the travelling public the are still there, and they - have never. facilities which they enjoy in- other been usedexcept for a .few motor-cycle parts • of the British Isles, it is _bound trials. I would be pleased if the chair- to have an adverse effect on the man of the Airports Board would give Isle of .Man. There is no licence. atthe

Board Estimates. £3l ,48. 440 TYNWALD COURT', MARCH 17, 1143.

Airport Cafe. There is, therefore, no passes the amendment, the matter is right to control it from the point of settled for some years to come. If the view of drinking. There is nothing to Court do not pass the amendment, then prevent a man who wishes to do so, to the matter remains open for the appli- order lunch and take with him a bottle of wine or a flask of whisky and drink cation to be made, and it is the decision that with his meal. That's what they of the licensing court to impose condi- are doing now, I am told. When he tions. There is no possible difficulty to gets into the plane there is ample facing up to the problem here and now. opportunity to have a drink there. It If you are determined to make it a con- is supplied on the plane. Let's be dition that until the further decision of reasonable. The question of the condi- this Court there should be no licence for tions to be attached to such licences is the airport cafe, vote for the amendment a matter for the Licensing Court. The and let's be honest. U, on the other Licensing Court may very properly say, • hand, you think it is reasonable, vote "We will only allow the bar to be open for the service of drink at meals." It against the amendment. It is here to be would be a very proper and reasonable settled here and now. It is not a ques- condition. They may say, "We will only tion of deciding what conditions the permit it to persons who are genuinely licensing court will impose. That is travelling by plane or who are having their prerogative. The Court has the meals in the cafe." They are matters opportunity here and now of saying to not for this Court but for the Licensing the Board, "We are not prepared to Court. On both previous occasions of have you apply for a licence." these debates we have had this bogey of pilots getting drunk. To start with, Mr Taggart: The amendment simply that is an insult to a very honourable says that it should come before the profession. (Hear, hear.) Not only that. Court. It is possible to frame regulations and Deemster Cowley: The amendment is rules which would entirely preclude it. on condition. If the amendment is car- You make it impossible for hackney ried, then this vote is a conditional vote. drivers to get drunk while carrying What will happen if the whole vote is passengers. lost, I will leave to the imagination of Mr Cottier: You have not. the Court. Here is the opportunity to Deemster Cowley: You have made it face up to the issue. Let us be honest impossible, if people obey the law. with each other. If we think they ought not to have a licence, vote for the Mr Taggart: On a point of order. You amendment. If, thinking of the in- are going into the merits of the case terests of the Isle of Man and having now. As I understand the amend- 'regard to the whole of the circumstances, ment, it simply gives a member the you take the other view, vote against opportunity of considering the question. the amendment. I am not to be de- Now you have raised the queS- prived, in spite of the point of order, of tion Of the licensing court. • I am a putting my view with regard to what is member of the Licensing Appeal Court. the main, important question. I would If the principle is going to be considered ask the Court to consider seriously the in the same way as His Honour Sit position of the Airports Board, who have Percy Cowley considers it, I am placed for some four years now tried to carry in a very unfortunate position. He is on without a licence. They have ex- developing the debate into a decision on perienced difficulty and complaint. They the issue itself. I do suggest that the are different from other airports, and amendment does not mean that we they feel the time has come when they should decide the issue, but it gives the must face up to the situation. I would Court the opportunity of saying it is appeal, to the Court, whatever your per- right or wrong. sonal view, to consider only the Interests Deemster Cowley: I would think that of the Isle of Man, and visitors to the the member meant to give the Court the Isle 'of Man, as to what is the proper opportunity here and now. If the Court course to adopt. I would urge that we

Airports Board Estimates £31,485. Iti■TwAtb couitt, mAllat ft, 00' 44t should apply care and reasonable any impression. I have not misled the thought, but not necessarily raise all our Court. I have read the verbatim re- own prejudices. . port when .Mr T. G. Moore was acting as chairman. In the report of the Board The Governor: The wording of the we .definitely stated to Tynwald when amendment was on condition that the we the report before them, that application for a liquor licence for the we intended to make- the applicatoin. Board be withdrawn." - What more notice -could I give than • Mr. Corlett: Surely, despite what His that? • Honour Sir Percy Cowley has said, if we Mr Corlett: Does the member realise support that amendment to-day, we are that the airport is a Government pro- not turning down the licence. We are Position? - It is not a little thing owned simply .saying that we are prepared to by the Board. The deficiency each year accept these estimates with that proviso. is met by the Isle of Man Government: Then the hon. chairman of the Airports Surely he realises that when a matter Board could do what he certainly should of policy of this sort is to be raised, have done from the very beginning— common courtesy • should cause him to come to this Court with a positive resolu- ,come to the Court for approval before tion. (Hear, hear.) • he goes ahead. Mr Cowin: That is a personal opinion.• Mr Nicholls: I would like to correct Mr Corlett: L'.ke the hon. member the hon. me,mber for Glenfaba as to his for South, Douglas, Mr Taggart, I am a final remarks. The Isle of Man airport member of the Licensing Appeal Court, is owned . bY the people of the Isle. of and I have no intention of talking Man, not by their representatives, and about. the advantages or the disad- their representatives have no right to vdntates of licences at the airport. I force their ',personal. opinions on the donVtiaink it is the real issue before the people of the Isle of Man. There is not CourOat all. (Hear, hear.) . It is this. the slightest doubt that in this and pre- It is i'what every member of the Court vious debates personal' bias has entered was led to believe first by the late mem- very noticeably. I had not intended to ber fOr'Rushen, Mr T. G. Moore, when he speak on this subject. Too much ha's deputised on • one occasion here for the been said on it in the past. The Court chairman of the Board. He gave a de- itself and the Board have been made to , finite assurance to this. Court that the look ridiculous in the matter. There is Court would have the opportunity of just one further correction I would like discussing it before there would be a to make With regald to the alleged licence at Ronaldsway. At a later date assurances Which the former member for the hon. member for North Douglas gave Rushen, MrT. G. Mdbre, gave. As re- the impression to the Court that he cently as lagt evening .I looked up this would dome to the Court again before he verbatim rei)ort, and 1 wrote it down to went ahead with the licence. Now he save myself the trouble of carrying says he used the words, "giving informa- round one of those bulky volumes. I tion to the Court." All I can say is this, find that the' final paeagraphs of the de- and I think the hon. gentleman can ac- bate were as follow:—; cept tht words of colleagues around The Governbr: If you;can give the assurz him. His colleagues were of the impres- ances which are clearly asked for, I propose sion that he intended to come to this to put the mbtion. Court. I would like to appeal to the Mr T. G. Moore: Unfortunately no notice hon. member to withdraw his resolution. of motion was given my chairman and I Let the amendment be withdrawn and would not like to bind myself. I would like to say that there would be no provision of a let us settle the question whether there bar without the approval of Tynwald. The should be a licence or not, if he makes main thing is;the matter should not be con- a definite proposal. sidered without the knowledge of Tynwald. Mr Cowin: If the application is with- Those are the actual -words which con- drawn, it is too late for this season. eluded this 'debate, but they have been Another season is lost. I did not give distorted from time to time in order to

Airports Board Estimates £31,485. - 442 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953

make the Court believe that a definite any member of the public. above 18 Can undertaking, was given. I cannot find enter and partake of anything the any evidence of any definite under- want. If that is altered,' it would, have taking in any of those debates. There to be altered by a change in the licen- is one further point. There is a further sing laws. This licence is in no way de- matter of confusion in the minds of signed or intended for anyone but the some members as to the danger of travelling public: I would like to quote people taking drink before they enter an an instance in which at leat•t two mem- aeroplane. I cannot for the life of me bers of the Court can support me.' The understand why it is perfectly safe to instance we experienced in England partake of drink at Speke, Ringway, showed the resentment caused" to air London Airport, Dublin, Renfrew, or passengers by the lack of these faeili- any. other airport from which people ties. The two gentlemen—I know they take off to come to the Isle of Man, but won't mind my naming them—were Mr that it is horribly detrimental for any- Crellin and the Attorney-General. When one to take drink at Ron aldsway. That we visited Blackpool on Government does not make sense. The hon. mem- business, we entered that terrible, for• ber for Peel elaborated that, and I have bidden place known as the bar. (A men-1- every respect for his opinion. He knows her: "Shame') The first question the Liverpool better than any of us. I pre- lady 'who was servhig asked us, when sume that he knows Speke Airport, from she knew we came from the Isle of Man, which a high percentage of passengers was (A member: "What'll you have?"4— come to the Isle of Man. There are two "When are you going to have a licence bars in Speke terminal building. Surely, at your airport?" I was naturally inter- if there is :the grave danger he speaks ested, and I asked her the reason for of, that is doubled at Speke. asking that quedion. She replied, "Well, if you could hear the air passengers re- Mr Corkhill: There are two bars at turning from the Isle of Man when they Dublin. come in here, after being delayed- at Mr Nicholls: So I believe. This hor- Ronaldsway through bad weather—they rible danger exists in the Isle of Mao. come ;n here as soon as they- 'come off It may be that the sea air has some the plane—you would not be at all particular effect on people when they flattered by their remarks." That is come here. The danger, apparently, practical evidence, and I know those does exist. It does not exist at either two gentlemen will bear me out. That English or Irish aerodromes, nor even is one little. indication that the English on- the aeroplane itself, as His Honour visitors resent this. has pointed out. They give them drink Mr R C. Cannell: In spite of this, on the London service at least. On the more pa(.sengers are carried year by long-d2tance services you can get any- year.. thing you want to: drink. I have never heard yet of any reason, any danger, Nivison: I think the Board is ill- whatsoever. ,One other point, sir. - advised in their method of trying to moV:alii the ainendment did talk tbou bull-doze this principle throUgh (he English -conditions,. : Why .ghould we Court. It.is the fact that questions were have English conditions in the Isle of asked in :Tynwald and an amendment Man in this respect? I would respect- made to, these estimates. -We have been fully point- out that; to .very large giverr,:the opinion that, regardless of extent, .it.is„English people we are pro- what 'the Board said to Tynwald pre- viding ..for'; • nol the Manx. public. The viously, their ten-apt would have ap- Board. have no desire to provide -drink- plied- for a licence. I believe that, whilst ing facthties Lai-the:Me of Man.. the Board conscientiously think they are doing the right •thing for the people. of -.1yRFee(••• •• • Thatyis what they are the Isle of Man, the - method by which doing.--- • - they did it will perhaps receive a recep- That is only incidental- tion' whiCh will se+. them back.- I be- sorriething 'We cannot prevent. The lieve-. it might set them back, because kenekal:public-holise" licence IS such that thei:e are people- in this Court who will — . . Airports Board Estimatis 01,485. tizNwALb tOuivt, 443 vote against the principle of providing perhaps a few more will not matter; I extra drink, facilities, and there are consider this conduct blackmail. I don 1. others who may vote against the method think it should have been done. . in which this matter has been brought Mr Nivison: What method do you before the Court. The Board have two suggest? enemies to face. I will say—and let me The Acting-Speaker: • I am quite glad not hide. under a bushel—that I am that there should be a debate, but I don't Voting for the amendrhent. I vote for think the estimates should be placed in it :on bbth grounds; I don't censider the danger because. of the private feelings airport should have a licence, and 3 of members of this Court. - I should hate don't consider that the method of bring- to see anything going on in the airport ing the question forward is the right which cannot be controlled, and I con- One. But I believe, in fairness to their s.der that anything which is under own case, that if they brought the ques- licence, and which would:be under the tion "up in -a proper manner, by an ap- surveiliance of ,the police, can be con- propriate resoiution asking for the 'per- trolled. In my travels around, I have been to a good many airports during the mission of the Court or the opinion of last few years,-and- I have made it my the Court, they 'would have received job to see and note what is going on, better. treatment. Perhaps the chair- and how these places are controlled. I man -.of the Board would take advice cannot see that there is any danger to fiorn an enemy — (.Laughter) — well, the pilots, or to the passengers. I see then, take' advice from the learned At- all other things being controlled by the torney-General, and let the matter go law, and I feel that if 'we take this to the decision of the Court. question to the Licensing Court, which is composed of men of ability and The Acting-Speaker: very reluct- judgment, we should get a: safe decision. antly - take part in this discussion. I There could he. Opposition, and the judg- -think it is unfortunate 'that we should ment could go to appeal. I don't think have trouble. over this matter, but as we in -this. Court should set up as a a membeir Of . the Airport Board, I feel Licensing— Codrt; it is not 'our job. that I must support not only my chair- Mr Moore: I agree very strongly with man, but myself as a member. Quite the last speaker. This question should unreasonable and unjustifiable asper- not be discussed upon -the estimates; sions- have been cast on the Board. I it should be discussed entirely by itself. was not a member of Tynwald when I do feel that the Airports Board should this queition was raised,' but I have have come to- the Court directly, and subsequently read the debate, and of -asked for a licence in the first instance. cotirse I am now a member of the Court It May. do them harm, in this vote, that and of the Airport Board. In the report they haven't done so. It is not going to quoted by the hon. member for North influence me in-any shape or form, but Douglas, it is stated most definitely that I think that that would have been the the Board' had decided to permit the better method to adopt. The impres- tenant of the cafe to apply for a licence, sion the -Court had on the. lastoccasion and I cannot for the life of me see What was that they Would be asked for per- more clear • and lucid information the mission before the licence was applied Board could have given. When that re- for. port- was published, it was shown that . the Board intended to allow this ap- A:Member: It is a question of per- plication to go forward. In making this mission from the Licensing Court. • statement, they carried out to the word, , Mr Moore: Give me half a chance! and to the letter, their guarantee to this That was the irhpression I formed, and Court. I think it very unfortunate that I still think it would have been betterif this question should be mixed up with the Airport Board had carried out that the' receiving of the estimates which the intention. On-, the last occasion I voted Board has presented. I hardly like say- against the.- resolution, on account of the ing -this, but we' have had some hard "bogey," -as I have heard it called, that words in the Court this morning, anti the pilots would be tempted to drink. • Airports Board Estimates £31,485., 444 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953,

But I have travelled quite a bit since report, which is laid before the Court. then, and I am 'Convinced to-day that If any member didn't know that we it is not possible for a pilot to be intended to permit our tenant to apply tempted in this way And even if they for a licence, he admits that he didn't had the privilege, no man worthy of the read our report. There has been no name of pilot would allow himself to "fast business" so far as the Airports drink while on duty. I am going to Board is concerned. The hon. member vote for the resoliltion, simply because I for Glenfaba, Mr Corlett, reminded the think circumstances have altered, or Board that they don't own the Airport. perhaps my knoWledge is wider. I go I took that remark rather unkindly: For to the airport at times; I have been Mr Corlett's information, and the infor- there at many functions; and what do mation of the members of the Court, I find? Looking round, you would think would say that if the members of the it was licensed premises. They are not Airports Board did own the airport, they breaking the law, but if you go to a could not try any harder than they are function there—Your Excellency will re- doing to make it a success. I would like member one occasion—you would . not Mr Corlett to make a note of that. Per- know but that there was a licence. Let haps, if Mr Corlett and his Board took us be open and ..above board, and let as much interest in his Board as I and the airport have the licence. I have my colleagues do in mine . The often heard complaints from people who hon. member for Middle, Mr Nivison, go down there—it has been mentioned asked me to "accept advice from an this morning—not knowing, when they enemy." I was sorry to hear that. I leave home, whether they will not be didn't think I had an enemy in this delayed for two or three hours owing to Court. (Laughter). I say that in all weather conditions. And then, they just sincerity. I have never given any mem- cannot have a drink. I am not sur- ber reason for being an enemy. 'prised to heir that when they got off Mr Nivison: That was not the sense by the plane., and in half-an-hour or so in which I used the word. have reached Liverpool, the first thing they do is to ask for one. I have had Mr Cowin: There is only one sense that experience myself. I was delayed in which I know the word "enemy"— while about to travel by air, and I was one whom ,"you must hit before he hits chilled to the bone, and I asked for a you". I can oppose' the 'hon. member double whisky. They only laughed at on a principle, and he can Oppose. me; me; and said I' could not have it. I we are all entitled to our opinion. asked, "Have you no licence?" and . Mr NiVison: Nothing unpleasant was they said, "No." It is just all wrong. meant by the word, I can assure the (Laughter). If we are encouraging hon. ,member. people to come to this Island, we have to give them the same facilities as they Mr - Cowin: Thank you; I accept and would get at another airport. I may be believe it. I look upon Mr Nivison as wrong in My decision, but I have one of my friends—one, I may say in changed my mind, and I don't think the passing, that needs watching. (Laugh- effect of the- airport having a licence ter). will be that much more liquor is. con- Mr Nivison: You know, you have the s'urned than 'at preSent.. Health Services Board's _estimates, to Mr Cowin (replying): The hon. mem- come yet. (Laughter). ber for Garff, Mr Kerruish, seemed to Mt Cowin: I have Often found that feel that the Airports Board was trying half the battle is to keep my friend in to .'put something over" on the Court. good humour. (Laughter). The hOn. That was not the intention of the Board member for Ayre, Mr Cannel, asked if at .all, We honestly understood that. an airfield Could not be provided in-the before we could permit- our tenant to North. In all honesty, I cannot hold Out apply for a licence, Tynwald would have much. hopeto him. We have to Operate to be acquainted with what we-intended under Ai t Ministry regulations, and I to do. . There was no other way in question very much 'whether the which we could do that but through our Andreas airport would ineature up tO

Airports Board Estimates £.31,485.. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. . 445 the standard required to-day. In addi- on the 'plane if they were late in arriv- tion, the runways are in bad condition; ing. Well, there must be a set time; and they have been subjected to consider- you are required to be there twenty able subsidence. The terminal buildings minutes before the 'plane is due to go. consist of a few huts, the control tower Also, that gives B.E.A. the opportunity is in a bad condition, and there would of selling any seats not taken. There is have to be complete re-wiring. In fact, generally a waiting list, and if a person to make that airport suitable for civil has had a day return ticket at a cost of flying would cost between one and two £2 10s., and doesn't turn up, B.E.A. million pounds. have lost a seat, and they simply cannot Mr R. C. Cannell: Would the Board afford to do that. The conditions of bear in mind, if it is at all possible, even travelling are laid down; you have to be a shuttle service by helicopter? there twenty minutes before embarka- tion time, so that you can be checked in. Mr Cowin: Our information is that it I feel that B.E.A. treat the people will be ten years before helicopters reasonably well; they are not to a come into this sort of use. But we have minute, but if the seats are already been in the North of the Island, and taken through people arriving late, that have earmarked a site for such a pos- is the person's own responsibility. I sible development. The hon, member would plead with supporters of the for Garff, Mr Kern:Ash, compliments us amendment to forget their personal bias, on the appearance of the new terminal, and think, of the welfare of the Island but thinks it might be possible to orna- as a visiting resort. We have had ment it with gardens. It IS not the numerous complaints from the travelling Board's intention to put gardens in public, written and oral, arid we have front, but we do intend to have grass in also had comments from B.E.A. They front and a drive in. At first we, in- hope that when we provide our new tended to have a car park, but later we terminal, there will be reasonable faci- considered that it would be a sort of lities for obtaining liquor. There is no sacrilege to put a car park in front of a intention to run what might be called a building of that description. We have public-house. The place chosen is up on made ample provision for parking on the top floor, in the right-hand corner. both sides of the road. When members In fact, unless they require these facili- see the finished article, I think they will ties, the travelling public will not see it. agree that we have done the right thing. The hon. member also thought we Mr McFee: It is a public-house licence ,should press for some elasticity in con- they are applying for. trol by B.E.A., and that they should Mr Cowin: They have to, but it is acquaint the travelling public with the not going to be run as a public-house. atmospheric conditions,. the flying con- My information is that you have to .ditions, at Ronaldsway on any particular apply for a public-house licence; that is day. Well, delays are not always due the type of licence there is. But there to• the flying conditions at Ronaldsway. will be no such thing as a bar, on the Flying conditions have to be suitable ground floor. The travelling public who where the plane is going to before it can book in or book out won't notice that set off. Very often, the sky at Ronalds- this place is there, unless they ask for Way may be quite clear, but it may be liquid refreshment, and then they will bad at other places, and passengers may be directed upstairs. We are trying to h-ave to wait. They • may think that run Ronaldsway Airport for the benefit after half-anLhour it will be clear in the of the Island, for the fostering of the bther. place, but before they get the visiting industry, and I appeal to the Ail'Clear," it may be an hour or two Court to give us some co-operation. hours. --We have discussed this matter and they are very anxious . Mr Gerrard: I haven't had an answer "- avoid irritation- to the travelling to my. question, public, and will do everything possible Mr Cowin: I am sorry. The hon. to avoid • it. The same hon. member member is the only member who really complained of people. having a day asked a question on the estimates, and return ticket not .being allowed to go yet I had forgotten him. (Laughter).

Airports Board Estimates £31,485, 446 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. ••■■••■•■•■• He asked me for details of the item The Governor announced that the allowed for contingencies. We have resolution had been carried in the Coun- made an estimate for increased ex- cil by seven votes to one, Mr Callister penses caused through extensions of voting against. station hours by operating delays and bad weather, and also by diversions to The resolution fell. JUrby. We have put down £750 for The Court adjourned for lunch and that Of course, it is an estimate; we resumed at 2-30 p.m. cannot tell. It may cost more, or if we The Governor: In the estimates of the are lucky we may save on it. Then there is E750 for emergency work on Airports Board, which the Court tried to aerodrome and approach lighting, and pass this morning, provision was made electrical cables and circuits. Some of for the payment of sinking fund charges. these things were put in during war- I assume that the Court would wish that time, and age and decay is showing on provision should be made in the Esti- them. Then there is E.250 for emer- mates for the payment of these charges? gency work on telecommunications ser- Agreed. vices in connection with navigational aids, and £250 for ordinary reserve, for eipenses which we cannot anticipate. CASTLETOWN TOWN COMMIS- - Mr Gerrard: Thank you. But I think SIONERS—BORROWING FOR it. would have been better to put down ERECTION OF HOUF.,ES. these items separately. They have all The Castletown Town Commissioners been lumped as "contingencies." petitioned for authority to borrow a sum The amendment was put and taken to not exceeding £11,200, at a rate of in- a. division, and the voting in the Keys terest not exceeding Eft per centum per was as follows:— annum, repayable within a period of 50 years from the date of borrowing, to de- For: Messrs Corkhill, Corlett, Gerrard, fray the cost of the erection of a terrace Crowe, T. Q. Connell, R. C. Cannell, of eight two-bedroomed bungalows on a Kerruish, Mrs Bridson, Messrs Nivi- - portion of the School Hill Estate, Castle- son, Coole, 1VIcFee, Cattier, and Tag- town.—The Isle of Man Local Govern- gart-13. ment Board presented its report. Against: Messrs Farrant (Acting- Mr Crellin: This application is from Speaker), A. Cecil Teare, Nicholls, the Castletown Town Commissioners Brownsdon, Moore, Kelly, Cowin, for permission to borrow £11,200 at a and Craine-8. rate of interest not exceeding £4 lOs The Governor announced that the per cent, a year, to be repayable within amendment had been defeated in the 50 years. It will enable the Commis- Council by five votes to three. Those sioners to erect eight two-bedroomed voting for it were the Lord Bishop and bungalows which will be let at a rent of Messrs Callister and Kneen. 14s a week, exclusive of rates. Now, your Excellency, tenders were first in- The amendment therefore fell. vited in September, 1951, and subject to The Governor put the resolution. A the approval of Tynwald, the tender of division was called for, and the voting Mr W. E. Thompson, of Onchan, for in the Keys was as follows:— £13,030 was accepted. At that time my Board had under consideration pro- For: Messrs Farrant (Acting-Speaker), posals for economies in the erection of A. Cecil Teare, Nicholls, Brownsdon, houses, both by the Board and local • Kelly. Cowin, Moore, and Craine-8. authorities, which would reduce the ex- Against: Messrs Corkhill, Corlett, Ger- pense and yet result in satisfactory rard,• Crowe, T. Q. Cannell, R. C. houses. The Castletown Commissioners Cannell, Kerruish, Mrs Bridson, took this matter up, with the result that Messrs Nivison, Goole, McFee, Cot- there was considerable delay. In the • ter, and Taggart-13. end the Commissioners declined to ac-

Castletown Town Commissioners—;Borrowing for Erection of Houses. tv-NwAL,t) COURT, MARCH 17, 1963. 441 cept the tender, because of the time that with England' in this respect. It will in- had elapsed, and asked for a re-tender. volve buildings of all types. The lowest was that of Messrs Kelly Brothers, Ltd., for £9,960, against the Deemster Cowley seconded the resolu- majority of other tenders for £13,000, tion. and two for over £14,000, and one for Mr Crellin: I am going to support this £15,400. The Board was rather con- if it does not cut across anything the cerned about this and asked the architect Local Government Board decides to do for the Castletown Commissioners to go in the matter. We have had a whole lot carefully into the figures in Messrs Kelly of information from England with re- Brothers' tender, and while they were gard to borrowing for housing, and we below his estimate, he was satisfied that hope to introduce a new principle of bor- it could be done at that price, and that rowing. the firm had missed nothing out. As a result the Board agreed that that tender The Attorney-General: That is merely should go forward. The annual defici- a matter of a slight amendment to the ency is £423. Receipts are estimated to Local Government Act, 1916. bring in £291, and the Commissioners' Mr Moore: I take it that it will not proportion of the deficiency is £105, interfere with existing schemes? which represents a little over the pro- The Attorney-General: It does not duct of a penny rate, and the Govern- interfere with them, but it enables ap- ment's proportion is £317. At one time we thought that Castletown had com- plication to be made to Tynwald to put pleted its housing scheme. However, as old borrowings on the same basis as the a result of our inquiries, we are per- new. fectly satisfied that there is a need for Deemster Cowley: What about the small types of houses in Castletown at rights of the lender? It would be in- the present time, as there are still 21 equitable, if a man had lent money on people looking for houses in the town, the basis of repayment on a certain date, even after the list has been carefully to alter that date. revised. The clerk to the Commissioners The Attorney-General: It will not alter has informed the Board that this scheme that. should meet the needs of the town and that further schemes would not be neces- The resolution was carried. sary. The Governor: The Bill will be intro- Mr Gerrard: I beg to second the duced into the Council. resolution and reserve my remarks. The resolution was carried. DOUGLAS CORPORATION — PETI- TION TO INTRODUCE DOUGLAS DOUGLAS TOWN COUNCIL— MUNICIPAL CORPORATION (AMEND- PETITION To INTRODUCE LOCAL MENT) BILL. GOVERNMENT (EXTENSION OF RE- The Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses PAYMENTS HOUSING LOANS) BILL. of the Borough of Douglas petitioned for The Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses leave to introduce into the Legislature of the Borough of Douglas petitioned a Bill to be styled the Douglas Munici- for leave to introduce into the Legisla- pal Corporation (Amendment) Bill. ture a Bill to be styled the Local Gov- The Attorney-General: This will en- ernment (Extension of Repayments able them to prepare a scheme to amend Housing Loans) Bill. the boundaries within the borough for The Attorney-General: This enables submission to Tynwald, and if Tynwald housing authorities to borrow money for agrees it will go to the Local Govern- housing and spread the repayment. over ment Board. The Board will make re- a period of 80 years. It is the same as commendations back to Tynwald, which in England, and it is to bring us in line Tynwald may or may not approve. The

Douglas Town Council—Petition to Introduce Local Government (Extension of Repayments Housing Loans) Bill.—Douglas Corporation—Petition to Introduce Douglas Municipal Corporation (Amendment) Bill.

448 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953.

thing is that with the growth of the Interest and Sinking area something must be done about the Fund Charges- 9,150 Noble's (I.O.M.) extension of wards for elections. Hospital - Nurses' Mr Taggart seconded the resolution. Home 9,000 Noble's (1.0.51J Mr Nivison: This appears to provide Hospital - Central for some redistribution within the ' Sterilising Unit 640 borough, but it may be that some Ballamona Hospital 2,525 national redistribution is desirable as £320,947 well. 327,102 Part III of the Act: Services The Attorney-General: That is some- Provided by the Board thing you might do something about. 2,543 Infant Welfare ...... 3,055 Mr Nivison: I have tried. 9,590 Nursing Welfare 11,160 2,550 Milk Scheme 1,500 The Attorney-General: You want On- 875 Vaccination and chan in the borough of Douglas. Diphtheria Immuni- (Laughter.) sation - 875 1,700 Tuberculosis Clinic The resolution was carried. and Health Visiting 1,915 The Governor: The Bill will be intro- 40 Venereal Diseases 50 1,000 Ambulance Services 1,000 duced into the Council. 695 Administration- Medical Officer of Health 775 20,330 ISLE OF MAN HEALTH SERVICES 18,993 BOARD-ESTIMATES TOTALLING Part IV of Act £557,996. 74,418 General Medical Ser- Mr Cowin: I beg to move:- vices 77,758 65,350 Pharmaceutical Ser- Whereas the Isle of Man Health Services vices 63,380 Board have submitted their estimates of ex- 30,542 General Dental Ser- penditure, totalling £557,996, made up as vices 29,056 follows, for the purpose of carrying out Supplementary Oph- approved policy in the financial year ending 7,367 31st March, 1954. thalmic Services ..,. 6,900 177,064 SECTION 1 15,500 Medical Practices Compen- Part I/ of Act: Hospital and sation 5,500 Specialist Services 12,718 General Administration 13,600 1952-53 £140.000 Noble's (Isle of Man) 205,895 Hospital £142,315 12,208 Ramsey Cottage Hos- £851,990 £537,441 pital 11,825 11,835 'Jane Crookall Mater- nity Home 13,160 SECTION 2 76,518 Mental Hospital Part A Maintenance 76,255 1952-53 13,100 Expenditure un der 1. Noble's (Isle of Man) Mental Diseases Act, Hospital- 1942, Parts II and II/ 12,900 £500 New Corridor-Opera- 5,614 White Hoe Isolation ting Theatre Suite Hospital - Mainten- 320 Improvements Electro ance 5,886 Medical Department 13,239 Cronk Ruagh Sana- 3,500 Radiographic Unit torium-Maintenance 12,205 Alterations to Mor- ,400 Medical and Surgical tuary £700 Appliances 150 New Mobile X-Ray 1,800 Travelling expenses- Apparatus 570 Patients attending Light Transit Ambu- Hospital and ancil- lance 650 lary services 1,900 380 Expenses relating to 1200 Deaf Aid Service 1,000 inspection of Main- 42,038 Remuneration of land Hospital 380 Specialists 31,186 .2,300 .

Isle of Man Health Services Board-Estimates totalling £557,996. .

TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. ' 449

2. 'Ramsey. Cottage Hos- amounting tO .. £47,000, • -reduce - pital- . £510,906 the sum .which the Court' 250 Repairs to Cottage being. asked •to request His Excellency' Property 250 , Making up Roads 770 to take into-consideration when framing 1,020 his estimate • for the coming- financial- 3. Jane Crookall Mater- year. The expected reduction in cost --19 - nity Home- clear evidence of the close watch which 100 Anxsthetic Apparatus is being maintained- over all branches 50 Oxygen ipparatus of the service, and has been efTected by: the -exercise of stringent- economies,- Part B—Other Capital Items. and with the co-operation- Of • 4.116:r - 1, Mental Hospital- Management Committee of • the various' 2.622 New Senile Wing hospitals., in spite of costs which are.: 2.500 New Boiler House 2,500 still increasing in many directions.; the 6.635 New Boiler 6,635, recent salary .award for nurses which 9,135 will add about £7,667 to the yearly cost . 2. cronk Ruagh Sana- of nursing services; and some extension torium- of the services provided. Substantial 100 Nurses' Home—Build- items which have 'contributed to the ing 100 lower estimate for the coming financial 3. White Hoe Isolation year are:— (I) the settlement of the Hospital- terms and conditions of service for 550 Mechanical Respira- specialists, in consequence of which the tor 1,000 necessity for including a large sum to . . 4. Nursing. Services- meet retrospective payments has dis-• 1,800 Cars — Replacements 1,200 appeared, and (2) the discharge of the Alterations and Im- greater part of the accumulated liability provem en t s to for interest on compensation for the • Nurses' Home, loss of right to sell the goodwill of 'Castletown and re- decorating Infant medical practices. With regard to the Welfare Clinics 209 services provided under Part III of the.- 1,400 Act, namely, District Nursing, Infant 5. Office Premises- Welfare and Tuberculosis Health Visit- 9,000 Conversion — Harris ing, which were of course avai:able Terrace 4.500 before the • National. Health Service 6. Infant Welfare— commenced, and were financed either — • Alterations P e e 1 wholly or in part' from public funds, the-. Clinic 500 anticipated increase in expenditure. is Tuberculosis Clinic in the main due to the higher salaries"; and Health Visiting now payable 10 nursing staff. ....The new Car 600 amount estimated to be necessary under 1,100 Part IV of the Act for General Medical, 28,307 20,555 Dental, Pharmaceutical and Ophthalmid - services is lower than last year. So far • £580,297 £557,996 as general medical services are .con- cerned, allowance has been made for- (Estimated Receipts from sale of the 'introduction' of a .neW. method,of Insurance Stamps—£47,000) remuneration for doctors Which-is being._ Resolved,--that Tynwald requests His Ex- put into operation in England to replace.- cellency to give consideration to the same in the method hitherto employed which as. framing the Estimates- for the year 1953-54. the Court will recall, was based upon.a.- As in previous years, copies of the capitation fee of-'18s per year for every . Board's estimate of expenditure for the person included in ys per cent. of the : ensuing financial year h-ave been circu- population. •Under the new arrange- lated- to members' of Tynwald who will nients,- an annual capitation fee Of 1.7S-: have-noted the encouraging decrease in is payable for' the first 500 patients on the gross, sum anticipated to be neces- cioetcit's'list; 27s :Par the teXt-I.000-,---or; sary. for the maintenance of the National part of 1,000—and 17S for the refriainder; Heafth Service.- Estimated receipts . The neW method. is-more costly,thanlim:. frOm National Insurance contributions; previous' artailgenientiz.lhe _ . . Isle of man Health Services Board—stimates totalling £557,996. 466 TV1\:IWALID COLInt, MARCH 17, 1§53. funds required, according to the number vision of efficient dental or ophthalmic of names on doctors' lists at present, services. As an instance it May be being rather more than £8,500 in a year. mentioned that dentists are accepting The reason why the net increase is only responsibility for a year in the case of £3,340 is that a retrospective sum for dentures supplied or repaired. With the remuneration of doctors was in- regard to medical practices compensa- cluded in last year's estimate. The tion, the discharge on a provisional amount payable by the Government by basis, of the accumulated liability for way of superannuation contributions in interest has reduced the sum estimated respect of doe-Lois is of course also as required, to the affiount considered correspondingly increased. The position necessary to meet the average annual with regard to Pharmaceutical Services charge under this heading. I think, still gives rise to anxiety. A slight fall your Excellenay, that the foregoing in the cost has been estimated. This is remarks review the Boards estimate due to a reduction in the price of some comprehensively and with, I hope, pharmaceutical supplies, particularly reasonable clearness. The Board are dressings, and to the work carried out ever conscious of the need for the by the Prescribing Committee. Much strictest economy in the operation of remains to be dobe, however, and in the National Health Service, and all conjunction with the charges which are reasonable steps are taken to effect to be introduced for prescription forms economies. In passing I would like to and certain appliances, steps are under draw the attention of the Court to the consideration for further investigation fact that the cost of administration is of the prescribink of doctors, with approximately 2i• per cent. of the total whose co-operatiorf. it is hoped that the cost of the service, notwithstanding the charge for this ,service • will lessen mass of detailed clerical work which appreciably without jeopardising • the has to be carried out, and the recording efficiency of the service. It may interest and tabulating of information necessary the Court to learn that at the present to the efficient conduct of the service. rate at which prescriptions are issued, No doubt members of the Court will a reduction of as little as Id on the have questions on various points and average cost of prescriptions would J shall be glad to answer them and to effect a saving of about £1,275 in a give any further information which may year. In estimating expected require- be desired. I beg to move the motion ments regard has been had to the standing in my name. - exemptions from charges which are to be allowed. It is anticipated that about Mr Brownsdon seconded the resolu- 25 per cent, of tI4 population will be tion. • exempt and that th6 charges payable by the rest will amount to between £7„000- Mr Gerrard: In referring to the esti- £8,000 in a year. So far as general mates I wish to make special mention dental and supplementary . ophthalmic cf the item of £8,500 for increased services are concerned, it is anticipated remuneration for doctors. I wish to that a smaller sum than was estimated make it quite clear that I, personally, last year will be required. There has would like to see that item left out been a reduction in,the number of cases entirely until such time as the Board is completed each month; and the average quite certain that the need has been cost on public fundaper case is smaller, proved for this extra remuneration. We Exemptions from the charges ordinarily have now reached the stage where the payable by patients, under the regula- Health Services, with their ever-inereas- tions in force are qf course .allowed in ing costs, are becoming a national bur- cases of hardship, ad no person in need den, and I am certain that it will be the of treatment is preliented from obtain- desire of the Court—I am absolutely ing the services of -a dentist or an certain in my mind—that this money optician, as the case may be, merely shauld not be paid unless it is proved because of inabiIity:-'1,to pay. Both the to be warranted. I agree that the Health dental and the ophthalmic professions Services Board has committed itself to are co-operating with the Board in give doctors in the Isle of Man the same keeping the cost of.Ahe services as low pay and conditions as their counterparts as possible, consistent with the pro- receive in England, but the point' we ., Isle of Man .Health Services Board—Estimates totalling £557,096. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953, 451 must not forget, is can we afford to do taxation for certain classes of work, or, it? The expenses of the Health Services alternatively, reduce the incOme to what are, to say the least, becoming top- they have reduced it to in England. It heavy. We have asked the public is a considerable time since the Court recently to take a little larger share of asked for a commissio'n to investigate the burden by paying more for prescrip- the question of these high salaries, and tions, and an approach might be ' made there has as yet, so far as I am aware, to the doctors in the same spirit to see been no result. This is a measure which if they will not be prepared to forego must be given the fullest consideration some of the money they can justly before there is any semblance of adop- claim, particularly in view of the pay- tion even in principle. ment which will be made in compen- Deemster Cowley: Might I ask the sation for . private practices, which will chairman of the Board a question with cost another £50,000 if approved by this regard to the £8,500? The figures show Court, I feel certain that if the Board an increase of only £3,340. Does that gets together with the medical profes- mean that there is a saying of £5,000? sion and puts its cards on the table, they themselves may be prepared to meet us Mr Cowin : No. tast• year we had to on this particular matter. After all, make provision for a retrospective sum £8,500 is a great deal of money to be for the remuneration- of doctors. When divided among about 30 doctors. They we got the true figure we found we had are already getting a considerable in- to have a sum in the estimates to allow come, and I do not know of any doctor for the retrospective payment of £5,160, in the Isle of Man who can really claim so we have to deduct, that from the hardship, They would certainly have figure, so that £8,500 is the estimated an up-hill fight to prove that this extra net amount the doctors will receive payment is really necessary. I do feel more than they got last year. that it would be in the interests of this Mr Nicholls : Does this award amount Court if we were to strike out for the to An addition to the £50,000 per time being the reference to £8,500, and annum? • if by any chance the need is established Mr Cowin: There will be a retrospec- then it should come before this Court tive payment of between £40,000 and as a special vote. £50,000, and that will amount to be- Deemster Cowley: Where does the tween £5,000 to £7,000 per annum. £8,500 .come from? There will also be an addition, as this Mr Gerrard: It is the extra payment. method of payment is put into operation Mr Kerruish : 1 beg to second the instead of the 18s. capitation fee in Eng- amendment. I do not feel happy that land .on which it was based, whereas a round table conference would be the annual capitation fee will now be likely to produce much result, but I 17s. for .the first 500 patients, 27s, for think the time has come for the Court the next thousand, and 17s, for the to take a stand on the question of pay- remainder. That , is. what will amount ments to the medical profession. I think to another £8,500 per annum. that this award, which will cost this Deemster Cowley; I notice that the Court £45,000, must be given the cost of General Dental Services is only fullest consideration before there is the down by £1,486. Does that take into semblance of adopting it in principle. account the recent alteration whereby a If the token vote is passed to-day, it may man has to pay for a proportion of his be held that the Cotirt have adopted it dentures, and the contribution for in prir4ple. 11 think it would be better general work? if the fullest consideration be given to Mr Kelly : I think the hon. member the doctors' remuneration, and a further for _Glenfaba's objection is reasonable, vote asked for later, as the hon. mem- and while the award has no connection ber for Glenfaba suggests. If you look with the matter before us this after- at the medical remuneration it must be noon, the principle was adopted when agreed that there is a handsome fee to the matter was considered before Mr compensate them for their work. I think Justice Danckwearts, as adjudicator on we must now adopt a special form of the remuneration of general ,medical

Isle of Man Health Services Board—Estimates totalling £557,996. 452 liTNWALb ColUili*, MA116H- 17, practitioners, when the doctors had the charge for their services while patients assurance that new terms would be ar- were in Noble's Hospital as private ranged. He worked out the betterment patients. It was stated that they were plan on 1939 values compared with those entitled, while drawing their full in l94 o 1951, and arrived at the con- specialists' fees, to charge people in clusion that on the 20,000 doctors in private wards. There was an expres- England and Wales (compared with the sion of opinion in Tynwald that they 28 in the Isle of Man) the assessed values of the arrears up to date did not like this position. I wonder amounted to approximately £40,000,000. whether there could be negotiations be- This £8.500 is following up that award. tween the medical profession and the The basic figure, I believe, is 17s per Health Services Board to get rid of this patient. _ . anomaly. ' It is a very costly thing for Mr Cowin: That has nothing to do some people. I know of people who were with it. in a public ward and were advised to Mr Kelly: It is 17s for the first go into a private ward. They readily 51:10 - and 27s over • the next 1,000 paid the additional fees for the privacy, patients, and when you reach 1,500 it but they were alarmed when they reverts to 17s., which works out at about received the bill for surgical treatment, £300- extra per doctor. It has never for which they were not prepared. I been .discussed by the Board, but if it think that matter should be gone into does arise, that is the figure which has with a view to getting the position to. ,be put in. The arrears will have to altered. I would like to say how grate- be considered at some time. ful we are to the Health Services Board Mr Moore: With regard to the pay- for the tremendous amount of informa- ments operating under the .Health Ser- tion in this memorandum which con- vices, the poorest paid are the medical tains their estimates. But in this host profession. " They get a capitation fee of of literature, 1 wondered if *there was 17s or 18s 6d a Year for looking after the any article similar to that which in patient, which I think is a very small another report we were subsequently sum, and I think they are doing a good told we were bound to accept. I notice job: I think some scrutiny, however, it refers to capital expenditure, to which should be given to the items for I am not necessarily opposed—in fact; I specialists. They are doing a good job am in favour—but if the Board have not in the Isle of Man; but we are spending already given their appro.:val. I hope £31,186 an specialists, half of :what we they will do so. I hope the chairman are paying for all the doctors put will be able to give us some inforMation on what is likely to be done with regard together. .I think that is all wrong. It to the specialists, and I think it is regret- is out of proportion, - and the matter table that in these services which are should be investigated. I suppose the doing such good work there should be chairman can explain it, but it is a these cuts in the direction of the reci- matter which should be gone into. pient of the treatment. If cuts are to be Mr Crellin: I would like to ask a made, they should not always be made question with regard to the item of at the expense of the patient, and per- £3,350 for printing, stationery, etc., at haps there are other directions in which Noble's Hospital. Is that correct? What they could trim their sails a little. was the.figure for last year? I suppose telephone calls make ui a large part of Deemster Cowley: I would like to it: -I hope they are efficiently checked. It thank the hon. member of the Council is 33 per cent, more tharl the administra- for calling attention to the item of tive salaries. . ' £3,350 for printing, stationery, etc., at Mr •Nivison:' On the question raised Noble's Hospital, which, as the member. by Mr Moore, 1, too,--1 was concerned said, is more than the total 4administra- about the expenditure: on specialists, tive salaries. I looked up what had though ,:the £31,186 w6s less than the been allowed for another iristitution of figure—last year, which was £42,038. a sixth of its size, and see that the sum When_lhe matter was "discussed on pre- of £145 was allowed for Ramsey Cottage viouS, occasions,- questions were asked Hospital. • I am 'not asking for thal' whether specialists were entitled to figure to be increased, but Lcannot see

Isle of Man Health Services Board—Estimates totalling £.557,99T.' IINWALtI COURT, MARCH 17, 1§63. 4- why Noble's Hospital can justly spend memory of the Court, before the that amount. With regard to the medi- specialists were appointed and approved cal services, I would like to know what by His Excellency, a grading commis- is the average number of patients at- sion came over from England to survey tended by the general practioner over the land, and the hospitals, including here. In England we are told the aver- Noble's Hospital, Ramsey Cottage Hos- age is 2,300, and it would be interesting pital, the Mental Hospital, Cronk Ruagh, to know the number the doctor gets here and the Jane Crookall Maternity Home, for the money he receives. There is and assessed the need of the Island for also the question of specialists. I have specialists' services. They gave us their raised the question on several occasions evidence; we had a further conference, whether it would not be possible to and reduced certain of their suggestions. negotiate in order to achieve some simi- The report was eventually . approved. lar basis between the net salaries in the The Board agreed to present them for Isle of Man and in England. But I approval, and that was set up as the would be sorry to part with any of our specialist establishment for the _Island. specialists here, particularly the opera- It is not sufficient, your Excellency, to ting surgeons, and I have seen some- have a physician if you want an opera- thing of the strain on the surgeons dur- tion for appendicitis. We agree that the ing their period of duty. I have known Isle of Man is too small to have a resi- cases where a specialist had to go to dent brain specialist, but a specialist for Ramsey on a Saturday night, and was general surgery is essential. We need still operating at 10 p.m. on the Sunday. one specialist physician, and also an They are paid for their ability to do the assistant for when he is sick or absent work. They have put in years of study, for any reason; and we -need a patholo- skill and training; and I do not believe gist. We have been advised on this that the specialist in the Isle of Man, establishment by experts, including some with exception to the operation of the of the top brains in the north-west re- income tax, is overpaid for the wonder- gion, and that is the set-up which is ful work he is doing. necessary here. In addition we have a Mr Moore: I would like to make it working arrangement with Liverpool clear, your Excellency ,that I am not ob- and Manchseter that specialist's work jecting to the salaries of the specialists, can be sent to England. =The Board had but I am wondering whether there are the job given to them to set up an effi- too many of them, and whether we are cient health service in the Isle of Man. paying too much. We could materially reduce the costs in Mr Cowin: First_ I would like to say the Isle of Man, but not without re- ducing the efficiency of the service. that Messrs Gerrard, Kerruish and Kelly The hon. member of the Council, and are all members of the Health Services also His Honour Deernster Cowley, Board, and each of them has intimated queried the Noble's Hospital account for that they intended raising these points. printing, etc. So did the Health Ser- With regard to the extra payment to doc- vices. But we are assured they have tors, obviously it is a viewpoint we will been scrutinised by the hospital manage- have to take into serious consideration. ment. Every specialist has a secretary It was necessary to make provision in and keeps records of clinical examina- the estimates for the £8,500. It does not say that we will of necessity pay it. It tions, and these items are not just a is for the Board to decide. The Board matter of billheads, ink and rubber has not yet discussed it, and we will have stamps. We are assured that is the to have discussions and arguments with amount required. the doctors. But it was considered right Mr Crellin: It is a 250 per cent. in- and proper that provision should be crease on last year made in the estimates. Up to now the Mr Cowin: Then the hon. member for doctors have been paid on the same lines Middle, Mr Nivision, queried the as in England. The hon. member for amount paid to specialists by private Rushen, Mr Moore, feels that we have patients. Mr Nivison, I am certain, too many specialists. To refresh the along with every member of this Court,

Isle of Man Health Services Board—Estimates totalling £557,996. 454 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. realises the present set-up. It is com- a very charming gentleman, and he let mon knowledge that with the specialists me know very nicely, but very con- nine-elevenths of their time is for the vincingly that "there was going to be Board, and two-elevenths of their time none of that." (Laughter.) If we want is their own. It is within his know- specialists we have to pay the rates, and ledge that there are private wards in the I am afraid we shall have to; otherwise hospital and before any person is ac- we will cease to function. If I get a cepted for a private ward they have to direction from the Court, of course, I sign a form for them to pay 10 guineas a shall have to pass it on, but I do not week, and also pay for all medical and think they will accept that direction in specialist treatment. England. I think that about covers The Attorney-General: When they are everything to which I have to reply. very.ill. The Governor: Dies the hon. member Mr Cowin: I do not cajole them into for Glenfaba, Mr Gerrard, wish to pro- signing this form. It is the hospital ceed with the amendment? committee's decision. They must pay Mr Gerrard: Yes, sir. for privacy, and everyone has to pay. Personally, I think it is wrong that any- Mr Cowin: I am certain that the body who pays that money must pay Health Services Board are easy on this matter, but it is understood that we will twice. Even if I was a millionaire I have to pay the money and it means we would not go into a private wird. I will have to come forward for a supple- would rather go into the public ward mentary vote. So long as that is under- and save my money. If I did not get the stood, the amendment is all right. best attention somebody would know about it. His Honour Deemster Cow- The resolution 'as amended was car- ley asked if I could tell him how ried. many patients there were per doctor, in the Island. That figure can readily be ISLE OF MAN HEALTH SERVICES worked out by taking the population, BOARD—CAPITAL EXPENDITURE. which is 54,000, and the number of doc- tors, which is 28, and you can get the Mr Cowin: I beg to move the follow- average, with the addition of 12,000 tem- ing resolution standing in my name:— porary residents. Whereas Tynwald on the 17th April, 1951, authorised the Isle of Man Health Services Deemster Cowley: That is just under Board to expend a sum not exceeding 2,000 per doctor. £800,000 on approved capital works over the Mr Nivison: Those are people who are next three years. And whereas moneys are required to defray held at risk, not people who are expenditure on the following capital items treated. during the year ending 31st March, 1954. Mr Cowin: We know how many tem- Noble's Hospital— porary residents are treated, but the rest Nurses' Home £10,000 Children's Unit and Operating • are "at risk"; that is 95 per cent, of the Theatre 71,250 population of the Island. That is what Ambulance Garage 2,825 the doctors are paid on. Deemster Sir Cronk Ruagh Sanatorium— Percy Cowley also suggested that in- New Cubicle Ward 5,000 come tax should be taken into con- sideration in connection with the salaries £89,075 of specialists. Resolved,—that His Excellency the Lieu- Deemster Cowley: I suggested it was a tenant-Governor be requested to give con- matter which might be the subject of sideration to the provision of a sum not exceeding £89,075 to defray expenditure on discussion in an efTort to get some reduc- the capital items specified. tion in the cost of specialists. No expenditure to be incurred without the Mr Cowin: It was a subject of discus- approval of His Excellency the Lieutenant- sion four years ago, and it has been a Governor and Tynwald. subject of discussion ever since. We The items upon which it is estimated had a visit from the assistant secretary that expenditure will be incurred during of the British Medical Society. He was the ensuing finanacial year are all con-

Isle of Man Health Services Board—Capital Expenditure. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. 455 nected with the hospital services. It Cronk Ruagh Sanatorium, consideration will be recalled that last year I referaed has been given to the disturbing posi- to the building programme which has to tion arising from delay in the admission be faced in order to bring hospital facili- to the sanatorium of patients who, if ties up to a reasonable level. With re- treated earlier than is possible under gard to the sum of £10,000 estimated to present conditions, would stand a much be necessary for the completion of the better chance of full recovery, and in Nurses' Home at Noble's Hospital, it order to make reasonable provision for must be mentioned at once that this .the number of patients for whom modern figure is purely conjectural. It has been treatment in the sanatorium is required, supplied by the architect, who is not yet the Board propose a simply constructed in,a position to furnish the final figures. extension to the sanatorium. The cost The work has now reached the stage at is estimated to be E5,000, and plans and which final accounts are being prepared, details will be submitted to the Public and as there have been increases in wage Works Commission as quickly as pos- rates and in other directions during the sible, and in due course the matter will course of the building of the Home, it is be laid before Tynwald for approval, and anticipated that a further sum, not yet for the provision of funds which will be determined, will be required. As soon required. I beg to move the resolution. as the amount necessary to complete the Mr Gerrard: I second the resolution project is known, application will be and reEerve my remarks. made to Tynwald for provision of the Deemster Cowley: May I ask a ques- funds required. In connection with the tion in connection with this sum of children's unit and twin operating £71,000 odd for the children's unit. It theatre suites, progress has been made is, I understand, part of a much bigger to the point at which bills of quantities scheme which I have heard is to cost are expected to be ready at a very early £200,000 to £250,000, and I would like date, when it will be possible to obtain an assurance, whilst approval of the tenders, following which the project operating theatre is necessary, that the wil be laid before the Public Works whole Fcheme will be submitted to Tyn- Commission, and in due course applica- wald, 'even before this year's expendi- tion will be made to Tynwald to provide ture. It is no use coming to Tynwald the necessary funds. It has been esti- with a scheme for £70,000 when you mated that E71,250 will be required in have a £200,000 scheme in view. I sub- the coming financial year. The new mit very strongly that the whole plan children's unit is to accommodate 50 ought to be available before the Budget children, provision being made in the Tynwald. This is only part of the whole plans for isolation wards, which will scheme, and we want the plan of the permit the segregation of children whole scheme, together with the esti- suffering, or suspected to be suffering, mate of the cost. I do not think we from some infectious disease. The pre- should be a' ked to approve an isolated sent operating theatres at Noble's Hos- part of a scheme. pital, which have ' been seen by the Mr Cowin: I may have put it rather Board, require replacement as soon as badly. The £71,000 for the children's possible, and the new theatres included unit includes the operating theatre, and in the plans for this project will enable we think that money can be spent this this essential improvement to be carried year, although I do not say so. The out. The ambulance garage included in operating theatra is a matter of some the estimate is the subject of discussions urgency, but we will not come forward which are proceeding between the Board with a Ulan for the operating theatre and the Hospital Management Commit- alone. The operating theatre plus the tee following consideration of the pro- children's unit is one plan. posal by the Public Works Commission. Deemster Cowley: Will they dovetail As soon as the matter has been finalised, into the bigger scheme? Are we asked application will be made to Tynwald for to approve something to-day which will the moneys required. In the case of work in with the bigger plan?

Isle of Man Health Services Board—Capital Expenditure.

456 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 11, 1951

Mr Cowin: This bigger plan has been totiilling £199,545, for the purpose of carry- ing out approved policy in the financial year somewhat of a bogey for years, and I ending 3Ist March, 1954. will need a lot of persuading before I 1952-53 will come before the Court and ask it £8.250 Administration ,E8,250 to agree to anyfurther extension. (Hear; 1,500 Education and Publicity 1,500 hear.) I think the extension under re.; 750 Grant in aid of Knockaloe 750 view is all that will be done in our lifc- 25 Collection of Agricultural " time, apart from some interior alter- Returns 40 ations. We will have to spend some • 10 Hooded Crow Scheme 5 money-perhaps £2,000 to £3,000-on. 5.500 Diseases of Animals (Pre- vention) Act 5,500 alterations in the kitchen, because it has 750 Grant in aid of Milk Record- to be remembered that the kitchen ar- ing Scheme 750 rangements are the same as when 60 . 2,000 1V1ilk (special Designation) patients wore catered for, and now we Order 2,000 are thinking of 250 beds; but there will 50 Agricultural Marketing Act 500 be no further structural buildings. 300 Agricultural Wages Regula- tion) Act 350 The Attorney-General: This resolu- 1,500 Improvement of Livestock 1,500 tion will not let us in for any further 1,500 Purchase of Bulls 1,500 extension. mac* Agricultural Drainage and Hedging Scheme 15,000 Mr Cowin: This is a complete scheme 60,000 Tuberculosis Attested Herds in itself. Scheme 60,000 11,000t Mixed Crop Subsidy Scheme The Acting-Speaker: In connection Agricultural Ploughing with this additional £10000 for the Grant 30,000 Nurses' Home, is it intended to borrow 4,000 Hill Sheeep Subsidy Scheme 1,500 this money, or Will it come out of a vote 15,000 Calf It Subsidy by Tynwald? Scheme 22,500 5,000 Cattle Rearing Subsidy Mr Cowin: The whole resolution is Scheme 5,000 concerned with borrowing. 20,000$ Provision of Lime and Other Fertilisers 24,100 The Attorney-General: They are 800 Agricultural and Rural In- matters for His Excellency's considera- dustries Act 800 tion when he is compiling his Budget. 2,600 Fisheries 2,600 Mr McFee: I wish to rise and support, 400 Grant to "William Herdman" 400 as a member of the Health Service 16,000 Marginal Land Development Board, my chairman in this resolution. 15,000 Loss on Wool 15,000 With regard to the DoInt which has £181,935 £199,545 been raised byDeerpster Cowley, I think it will satisfy him if he has the as- Resolved,-that Tynwald requests His Ex- surance that we of the Health Services cellency to give consideration to the same in Board have already written to the Hos- framing the Estimates for the year 1953-54. pital Committee with an instruction that t Supplementary Vote of £2,200 taken in no more buildings must be contemplated addition, at the moment. Supplementary Vote ' of £2,500 taken in Deemster Cowley: Hear, hear. addition, The resolution was carried. In moving this resolution, I do not think it covers anything which is not well known to the members of the Court. -The first item is £8,250 for ad- BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND ministration. This is the same amount FISHERIES.-ESTIMATES OF as was requested from the Court last £190,545. year, and the vote covers salaries, super- Mr R. C. Connell: I beg to move the annuation and insurance for the Agri- following resolution standing in my cultural Organiser, the secretary and name:- ctaff0 of the- Board's offices. It provides Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Agri- for expenditure on printing, advertising, culture and Fisheries have submitted their stationery, etc., and for rents of offices estimates of expenditure, made up as follows, •and other general expenses. Then there

Board of Agriculture and Fisheries-Estimates of £199,545. t'irw/kLb COURT, Matta 11, 1952. 457

is again £1,500 for agricultural educa- cattle and pigs, pedigree sheep flocks tion and publicity. The vote covers and special strains of grain and wages Paid to farm pupils at Knockaloe potatoes. Next we come to the collec- (at present there are two); and the ac- tion of agricultural returns, £40. The tivities of the Young Farmers' Clubs, of amount requested last year was . £25. wh c:1, there are now four. Two schools and the reason for the increase in the also have clubs. It is through these vote this year is due, in the main, to clubs that it is possible to bring out increased costs of printing and circula- modern methods in farming and to give tion. Last year we asked for £10 for education to young people engaged in the hooded crow scheme, but that the industry. Lectures by eminent amount was not needed, so this year we authorities are given to the clubs and are asking for £5. Then we have £5,500 tours are arranged. The Board is for the purposes of the Diseases of anxious to develop agricultural educa- Animals (Prevention) Act. It has been tion in every possible way. The "Manx the same figure all my time. Coming Journal of Agriculture" is is..ued on a now to the Milk Recording scheme, quarterly basis and is met out of £750. This sum is towards the pay- the vote now before the Court.. The ment of the wages of recorders; travel- "Journal" is sent to every farmer in ling and car expenses; insurance; print- the Island, and forms a very useful ing and stationery and other miscel- method of giving up-to-date information laneous expenditure. Against the ex- and giving, modern teaching among penditure we . have the receipts—fees those engaged in the industry. The payable under the recording scheme. funds available are also ufed for the The fees were 2s 6d per cow per annum, development of a market in Manx seed and in view of the loss which has been potatoes, and every effort has been experienced the Board has decided to made to _encourage the export of stock 'increase the fee to lOs per cow with a sped r_ thus providing a lucrative market minimum payment of £4 per annum. for Manx- growers. The demand from The recording fees are payable in half- Great Britain exceeds the supply avail- yearly periods, September and March. able, but the seed has proved popular Next we have the Milk (Special Desig- and there is no reason why the Island nation) Regulations, the operation of could not build up a reputation and a which will cost £2,000. _This is for the very handsome export builiness. The payment of lid per gallon for milk sold seil analytis service which the Board from farms which have reached the high has arranged in conjunction with the standards of hygiene and cleanliness in Ministry of Agriculture is free to farmers. the production of milk . which, are laid The Board has,. in. the past, defrayed down in the Regulations approved by two-thirds of the cost of the education the Court, and the amount is the same tour which is organised annually • for as last year. Inspections and tests have young farmers, but it has been decided, been made, and, to date, 30. licences for the future, that this system shall be have been issued. We also have the revised as follows:—Members between Agricultural Marketing Act, £500. This the ages of 15 and 17 free; members shows an increase on £450 on the between the ages of 17 and 21, the Board amount requested last year, and is for to pay two-thirds as formerly, and expenses in connection with the Agri- thirdly any vacancies to be filled' there- cultural Wages Board. We found that after by members over 21 years, but, In on the old estimate we could not make such cases, these members will pay the the money go far enough. We have to whole of the cost. Then we come to the .print the circulars and then there is the grant in aid of Knockaloe Experimental advertisements for orders made by the Farm, £750. This amount has been on •Board under the price fixing of various the agenda for many years and the commodities, and it cannot be done for policy of the Board in regard to the sum of £50. The expenditure up to Knockaloe is well known to the mem- the 31st December, 1952, was £439 Os 5d. bers_ of the Court. Briefly, it can be Then we have the Agricultural Wages said _that the farm serves as a breeding Act for which we ask £350 which shows centre frcim Which the Island can an increase of £50 on last year and is obtain stock from pedigree herds of to meet the expenses in connection with

Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Estimates of £199,545. 458 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953.

the Agricultural Wages Board. The milk bonus £25,000—we pay 4d per number of meetings held for the year gallon for milk, from attested cows, and up to the present date is eight, at an as the scheme progresses this bonus will expenditure of 7s 6d per meeting, or cost us more. I am proud to report the approximately £30, together with a sum progress we have made although we of £25 to £30 for travelling expenses were held up in the early part of the for the nine members, including the year because of the foot and mouth secretary. The secretary of the Board disease outbreak in England, but how receives £75 per annum and the we have 'the whole of the centre of the Inspector £50 a year. The actual ex- Island from the boundary at Rushen penditure up to the 31st December, 1952, Sheading. and the whole of the north was £289 6s id. Next we come to the of the Island from a line drawn east to improvement of livestock and the pur- west from Laxey river to Orrisdale chase of bulls which comes under the shore in Michael will be scheduled as a heading of the Board's General Account, compulsory area at a very early date. £3,000. One thousand five hundred I hope that in three or four years we pounds of the amount will be earmarked will have a complete clearance in the for the purchase of stock bulls during Island. Next come the Mixed Crop the forthcoming financial year; then Subsidy Scheme and the Ploughing there is the purchase and maintenance Grant at £30,000 and the Calf Rearing of bulls for artificial insemination; the Subsidy Scheme at £22.500. Last year premium for bulls presented at the the figure was £15,000, but it has been annual spring show of the Royal Manx decided that, as from June next, this Agricultural Society; the hire of scheme will be brought into line with stallions; the grants to shows, and the the Imperial Government's provisions. destruction of rabbits and other vermin. The subsidy which has been payable in Then we have the agricultural di ainage the past has been £4 per head for steers and hedging scheme of £15 000. This and £3 per head on heifer calves at the scheme was referred to at some length age of six months, and which are of during the debate on the suggestion of suitable breed for beef. Under the new the provision for a marginal land scheme, the amount of subsidy will be scheme, and, in. requesting a sum £5 each for eligible steer or heifer of £15,000 on this occasion, the calves and an eligible steer or heifer Board has in mind the fact that calf (other than a heifer of the Jersey, the rejection , of the marginal land Guernsey, Friesian or Ayrshire types), scheme will now result in many which have been reasonably well applications coming forward which reared, and are suitable for beef produc- have been held in abeyance. This tion and will be likely to realise a scheme is on very similar lines to one carcase of reasonably good quality beef. which has been in force in Great Britain Calves which are sired by a Hereford for a number of years. Under its prb- bull reach the beef market because it is visions farmers are allowed 50 per cent. uneconomical to keep heifers of a of the cost of approved schemes for the Hereford cross for dairy purposes. The draining of fields, cleaning of ditches, fact that these calves are clearly stubbing gorse, making good farm roads marked by their white head is a and the rebuilding of hedges, including deterrent to farmers selling heifers of protective fencing. The Court will this type for milking purposes because know, of course, that a separate scheme they know the buyers would be has been devised for hedging and reluctant to purchase. Next comes the fencing under which farmers can only Cattle Rearing Subsidy Scheme for have work approved where men from which we ask £5,000. The scheme at the Government pool of labour are present is unworkable end the Board engaged. That pool has been kept by feels that an alteration is necessary if the Forestry. Mines and Lands Board. possible. The amount voted last year, incident- ally, was £10,000. Then we have the Deemster Cowley: What is the differ- Attested Herd Scheme for which we ence between the two schemes? ask -£60 000, the same amount as last Mr R. C. Cannell: The Cattle Raising year. Up-to-date the cost of reactor Scheme Is to pay for cows on hill cattle has been £35,000 and the cost of grazing.

Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Estimates of £199,545. 'TYNWALD COURT, MAI:WA 17,, 1058. 450

Mr Corkhill: Permanently kept on hill marks. It is this: These estimates come grazing? up for His Excellency's consideration in Mr R. C. Cannell: Yes, that is so. The framing his Budget. I agree entirely Board are going into the scheme to see with the wording of the resolution, but if it can be revised. in regard to the milk subsidy and the fertiliser subsidy scheme, we would like Deemster Cowley: What about the a definite assurance that the money will Sheep Subsidy Scheme? be forthcoming, because the farmers are Mr R. C. Cannell: I am coming to that, buying manure and so in in the hope and I am going to ask that it be with- they will get the money. The merchants drawn. The provision of lime and other are in the same boat, and that is the only fertilisers will cost, it •is estimated, comment I have to make, that your Lx-. £24,100, and under the Agricultural and cellency, in considering the estimates, Rural • Industries Act we ask for £800, will leave those I have mentioned as they similar to last year. Now we have the stand, if possible. Fisheries Board, for which we ask £2,600, similar to last year. Hon. mem- Mr Gerrard: I second the resolution bers of the Court know what that sum and reserve my remarks. covers. It covers the work. our men do Mr Kelly: I would like to ask the in the rivers and in the hatchery at Kirk chairman of the Board a question in Michael. There is the rearing of salmon connection with the Attested Herd and trout ,and releasing them in our Scheme. First of all, what per centage rivers. Some time ago there was an out- of the cattle in the Isle of Man have been cry in the Press that we had not done all attested? I am very glad that the hill we have claimed to do, but I have had sheep subsidy has gone, and I would like an opportunity of having inquiries made to repeat" my opposition to the mixed in Ramsey, and the anglers there said crop subsidy. I think, if His Excellency that what was said in the meeting at has to cut the estimates down, he might Douglas:was meant more in the spirit of consider that. sport than anything else. I had a nice Mr Corkhill: There is just one point I talk with them, said I would receive would like to raise with regard to the them at any time, and asked for sugges- payments for the wool. As the chair- tions. They suggested there should be man has mentioned, the Government pay more pools in the rivers to hold the fish. per cent., but I think people have to Then we want £400 for the William wait a very long time for payment, par- Herdman. This, also, is the same ticularly if they are starting up in farm- amount as before. The vessel spends ing and they have to stand out of the ." the major part of her time in Manx capital value for at least 12 months. I waters co-operating with the Marine think there should be some better Biological Station in Port Erin, and pro- vides a very useful service in obtaining system of payment. data which is of value in connection The Attorney-General: Does the hon. with the- Manx fishing industry. This member say that the English Govern- £400 is .a contribution towards the cost ment are now buying the wool? by Liverpool University of the vessel. Mr R. C. Cannel': We buy the wool and Lastly, there is the loss on the wool, it is shipped to England. which We estimate at £15,000. About two months ago I had to speak on the The Attorney-General: Is the English loss on the wool, which is paid for by the Government ID-laying wool? Government and re-sold. The wool is Mr R. C. Cannell: Yes. graded, and the farmers are paid the The Attorney-General: The Marketing same as their colleagues in England. The Board, you mean. Government have quite a bit in store, and I would like, if possible, to see a Mr Corkhill: My point is quite clear. little more speed shown in the handling I know several .small farmers on this of this wool. There is just one word Island, in hill /farms, and this amount of further I would like to add to my re- money means -.something to them. The

Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Estimates of £199,545. 460 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. actual money is better for them than the 1.5 per cent. each year. That is serious 2i per cent, extra for keeping it all the and it will be serious, and the time is year. I don't know of any other busi- coming when, as responsible legislators, ness that is run on these lines. we have to face up to the food situation, Mr R. C. Cannell: In reply to the and I would urge again a new, if learned Attorney-General I might say modified, marginal land scheme should be introduced. I am not a very old man that our Marketing Society tabled a yet but in my lifetime alone 1 can scheme to handle the wool the same as remember land going out of cultivation. in England, but the then Governor, Sir I can take you to the district where I Geoffrey Bromet, did not care for the live where farms have gone out of scheme, and quite rightly so. He had a cultivation in my lifetime. Those farms conference with the Board of Agricul- have reared families and large families ture and representatives of the Market- in the past, and they are not up on the - ing Society, and it was agreed that in- top of the mountain either. They could stead of the Marketing Society handling very easily with assistance be brought the wool the Government would do it back into cultivation but unfortunately and pay the Manx farmers the same when you have landowners bud farmers amount of money as the English farmers with plenty of money in their pockets, are getting, and that is what has gone on. they are not very particular whether they bring if back into cultivation or Mr McFee: May I refer to the Agri- not. What we must be able to say to cultural Drainage and Hedging Scheme? them in these critical days is this, "If Could we have more flexibility in the ad- you are prepared to pledge the economy ministration of that scheme? I know a of your country and food production, farmer who would have benefitted under then we must step in and have power to this scheme if he would have had the say 'It is to be done for you.'" I urge opportunity of employing a man of his upon the chairman of the Board of own choice, a man with experience. He Agriculture to reconsider the question was not prepared to go to the Highway of marginal land and introduce another Board and say "Give me a man," he was scheme, prepared to pick a man who already had Mr Cottier: I would like to ask the had great experience, but he was not chairman of the Board of Agriculture permitted under the scheme to employ a and Fisheries whether he has had any man in his private capacity. I was complaints from the anglers in regard wondering whether the chairman of the to the pollution of the rivers. I am Board could tell us whether it was pos- speaking particularly of the river run- sible to make the scheme more flexible. ning through Peel, which used to be I notice here that in the case of the good for anglers. The position is, that Marginal Land Development Scheme no last year and the year before, b.ne of the provision has been made in the esti- best spots has been polluted, and I mates. wonder whether there has been any re- . port from the inspectors. I don't know Mr Crellin: That is put in just as a whether any of he members for Glen- comparison with last year. faba know about it. Some say that the Mr McFee: I would like the Board to pollution is coming from the, mill or take into consideration, when discussing from the old tins, but we charge the these matters, the signs of the times. We anglers 12s 6d, and they get no fish. find that already a new agreement has That is my point. .If 'there is pollution, been made between the British Govern- I think the chairman and his Beard • ment and the Argentine whereby we will might go into it. Youngsters-bathe there pay £35 a ton more for imported meat. every Sunday. It might be very serious There is also, we find in the statistics, a 'and perhaps the chairman of the'llealth loss of 300,000 acres of arable land, and Services Beard- might- do something the number of workers on the land has about it. I hope the chairman will look • decreased by 173,000 in recent years. At into it. - • _ the same time we are facing an increase Mr .Brownsdon: Further to the :re-:. - in the world's population at the rate of marks. made by the hbn. meriiber;for

• Beard of Agriculture and FishetiesEstimates of 4199,546: — TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. , 461

Rushen, Mr McFee, I would like to ask . figures since the war relating to the the chairman of the Board to elaborate development of. agriculture in the Isle of on the remarks he made about the Man. ,I do not take the year 1945-46 Agricultural Drainage and Hedging because I do not think that we had then Scheme. I understood•him to say that really got settled down to our post-war. it was a scheme in which the extra men policy. in the year ending 31st March, , need not be taken from the Highway 1947, grants and subsidies to the Board Board. of Agriculture totalled £77,571, .Five years later, in 1950-51, the amount was Mr R. C. Cannell: No, it is the same £,179,442. In 1952-3 it was £189,135 and scheme. this year it amounts to over £199.000. Mr Brownsdon: I feel that that point So that I think we can fairly claim that might be looked into. I have some this Court has acted generously in experience in a certain part of the supporting the agricultural industry, Sheading I have the honour to represent, and if I may say so, It is up to the and I know that people would undertake agricultural industry now to 'justify the Drainage and Hedging Scheme if that support. they were able to pick their own men, Mr Corkhill: Do you claim that all people from the locality, who would be these subsidies go direct to the agri- prepared to do it, who would do a better culturists? job and a more economical job. I would like to support another remark made by The Attorney-General: In this in- the hon. member for Rushen, Mr McFee. stance, yes. I feel that when there was a very Mr Corkhill: I want my point to e substantial measure of support from the members of the House of Keys for the quite. clear. I take it that part of this Marginal Land Scheme, some ,effort subsidy is added to the price of beef by should be made in the future. We have the ,butcher. The Government is partly the land and we have not got the food, paying for the cost of producing that and. I think that one of the best. ways to beef, and it is subsidising the price to produce more food is by developing the the public. I would like that point to marginal land. 11,_ clarified. Deemster Cowley: This debate, in The Attorney-General: That eomes out some respects, appears to be developing of the Emergency Services. That is not into a rehash of other debates on here, but you actually get it. marginal land. 1 think it was under- Mr Brownsdon: His Honour referred stood that the Board should reconsider to the sum of £199,000, and surely l e the matter and bring in sennething more would .not say that the .E.8,250 for the in accordance with the English scheme. administration of the Board is a subsidy have no criticism to offer on this to agriculture. resolution. The hon. member for Rushen, Mr McFee, voiced, I think, what Deenister Cowley: I didn't say •so. we all feel, and recognise at the present said the amount of the grants to the juncture, that it is absolutely imperative Board of Agriculture. My point is that that this country, including the Isle of I venture to suggest that we have Man, should produce all the food it treated agriculture quite generously. possibly can, and these subsidies or grants have that aim in view, and I Mr Kerruish: Agriculture has been think personally that they are justified. treated quite reasonably by this Court, 1 I do want to say this, that I hear from think; but I think we would be better. time to time complaints from members off if the Court could possibly see its of the agricultural community that they way to treat agriculture on the same • are not being treated generously, and I basis as they do in England. His Honour would just like to remind them of some said that if this vote is. passed, he ex- • of the figures. I think you know that I pected agriculture and . the farmer to keep a record in tabular form of the justify it. As the hon. member. for Glen- expenditure of this Island from 1939 to faba mentioned, some of these sub- the present year. and I am going just sidies keep down the price to the for a moment to give you three lots of consumer.

Board of Agriculture and-Fisheries—Estimates of E199,545-. 42 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1963.

Mr Nicholls: They help the farmer have to consider is that there should be too, though. sonic amendment of the scheme in that respect. Mr Kerruish: It may help the farmer, but if the subsidies were removed it Mr Gerrard: There are just a few would be better for the farmer, let there words that I have to say on this matter. I cannot entirely agree with His Honour be no mistake about that. If farmers Sir Percy Cowley, that all that sum of are to be urged to justify these sue- money was given to agriculture. The sidles, perhaps the Court might carry item of £15,000 goes on wool, and it is it even further and take some steps to not fair to charge that to Manx agri- help farmers who have more than justi- culture. fied the subsidy by producing more than the island needs. For instance, to-day Deemster Cowley: That is in order we have big surpluses. I know that the that you get a fair price. Bacon and Creamery Commission is in Mr Gerrard: It is not fair to charge being, but only recently we have had a that against the farming community at letter from Government Office wibhing this stage. If it had been in being some to withdraw all Government respon- years ago, when the large profits were sibility in the marketing of pork. Gov- being made, there would have been ernment Office has already gone half something in the kitty to spend. Un- way in that direction. This, to my mind, fortunately, the Government came in on is the thin edge of the wedge to com- the job a little too late, and consequently plete Government withdrawal of the they have had to face a loss. guarantee of a market for the surpluses which arise. That is not the position in The Attorney-General: You made the England. The farmers there are guar- profit, then they brought the scheme in. anteed a full and complete market for Mr Kerruish: I think the merchants everything they can produce, and if we made a good profit. are to have this undercutting in prices the general level of farm products is go- Mr Gerrard: Since 1947, the sum voted ing to fall, and it will have an effect on to agriculture has increased by £122,000. farm workers. I hone when His Honour I take it that is in keeping with every- refers to this matter in future he will thing else. give us the whole picture, and not part Mr Callister: There is one point I of it. We would be very happy to adopt would like to make in tegard to the the fun .English system with English estimates put forward by the Board of guarantees. There are two points I Agriculture. Perhaps some hon. mem- do wish to make—small ones. I do bers will recollect that at the last sitting not agree with the Board's action we considered the estimates for the in withdrawing the Hill Sheep Subsidy ploughing grant, and I asked that the Scheme, because it has always been same conditions should prevail here as understood that we ran a year be- in England. I am just wondering what hind England on this Island, that it was is going to happen, because we are faced, a year late in being introduced, and that, I understand, in the Isle of Man, with it would conclude one year after.. Eng- the fact that there will be no ploughing land. The other point is that I feel, like grant for any land that has been under other members of the Court, that our four years in grass. That is completely Drainage and Hedging Scheme might contrary to the average tillage of the well be further amended and that we Isle of Man, and personally I doubt should go back to the old basis. It was very much if 25 per cent. of the farmers brought in in response to the need for can hope to get any subsidy whatever economy. It has proved a hopeless under the ploughing grant. I am not at scheme, because farmers generally are all opposed to the grant, but I am op- not prepared to pay workers 3s 3d an• posed to half a grant, which is not likely hour and transport, and have them to procure good results and to give, par- working considerably shorter hours than ticularly the small and medium farmers, their own men; which is a very disturb- a chance to get any at all, because they. ing influence, and I think the point we are not likely to receive anything like a

Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Estimates of £199,545. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. 463

quarter of even the half grant that is Mr R. C. Connell: With regard to the proposed. I would like the Board to last question, in England the Govern- give further consideration to this, and ment, or the Wool Marketing Associa- I hope they will. A lot has been said, tion, bought the wool for many years, and I agree very strongly with the hon. and that wool rose to a colossal figure member for Rushen (Mr McFee), with two years ago, and they made a profit; regard to more cultivation and more but our wool at that time was allocated food production, I am rather sorry to to the merchants of this Island, and think that something very, very much what was over was shipped and sold. more definite has not been done up to Now they are selling on a falling market the present time with regard to that. and we are giving our farmers the same We are on the verge of either increasing price as the English farmers. As re- • or decreasing the food production for gards the learned Attorney-General's 1953, and as far as I can see, no encour- question, no arrangements have been agement- has been given, no offer has made for importing cattle for feeding. been made, to induce a higher produc Several farmers have applied for per- tion than has taken place in the past. mission, to import cattle, and that has One other point 1 would like to make, been agreed to by His Excellency. That and that is this, that I think it is high is one reason why we have not asked time the Board of Agriculture and this for another Order tc be passed, because Court took into consideration the land sufficient voluntary people are asking that is being left uncultivated and to be attested. With regard to the hon. derelict, which could produce much more member for Ramey, Mr Kelly, who food, and no powers are in existence as asked What proportion of cattle on the far as I know to bring that about. I Island was now attested, the proportion .would like to think that that would be is well on to two-fifths of the cattle of reconsidered and brought into effect. We the Island—between one third and two know of good land that has not grown a fifths. crop for many, many years, and there Mr Kelly: Could I supplement that is no power in the hands of this Court, point? I would like to know when the as far as I know, or in the hands of the 4d a gallon subsidy ceases. Board,. to see that it is put into cultiva- tion, „and. I mould like these things to Mr R. C. Connell: After five years. be careftilly • considered. . With regard The 4d a gallon subsidy ceases five years to the £45;000, one of the big items, the from the inception of the scheme. loss on the wool of the Island, where has The Attorney-General: From the time it gone to? I wonder sometimes if the a man qualifies. same conditions prevailed in the Island as prevail in England, would this have Mr R. C. Cannell: No, from the incep- taken place? It has been set aside but tion of the scheme. If a man is 'un- not by the farmers. fortunate enough to come in in the fourth year he only receives the subsidy The Attorney-General: There is one for one year. With regard to Mr McFee'S point I would like the hon. member to question as to more flexibility for the answer. Has any arrangement been Drainage and Hedging Scheme, 50 per made to bring over any store cattle for cent. of the cost was paid to the farmer fattening :purposes? provided it was paid labour and that he Mr Nivison: I think the Court would. didn't do it himself. That was in the old like this matter the loss on the wool days. In order to economise they had to cut out the hedging repairs. I want clarified. The hon. member, Mr Cal- to be quite frank and quite fair. The lister, says, "Where has it gone to?" farmers wouldn't put a single sod on the can understand that in reference to hedge if they didn't get 50 per cent, of 1952-3. We were too late in corning into the cost. Under this new scheme the picture. fal'rhers have to take men from the pool The Attorney-General: It is the, loss and no one is taking 'them except for on the sale of wool in the open market. lifting potatoes and turnips. My friend We are finding the difference where on my left says "We can't take them." there is a specified sale. I am sorry to be in opposition to mem-

Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Estimates of £199,545. 464 TYNWALD COURT,. MARCH 17, 1953. . - . bers of my own Board and the vice- HARBOUR BOARD'S ESTIMATES. chairman of the Board on the question Mr Kelly: I beg to move:— of this Hedging Subsidy Scheme,. I Whereas the Isle of Man Harbour Board would like to know how it is there is have submitted their estimates of expendi- more hedging done in the Island than ture, made up as follows. totalling £84,285, there has been for the last three years. for the purpose of carrying out approved policy in the financial year ending 31st Anyone who travels the country will March, 1954. see that for himself, if lie keeps 1952-53 - his eyes open. I have very good £58,535 Maintenance of Insular Har- reports of the men who are taken from bours £66,390 the pool. If the hon. member for 1,230 Victoria Pier Buildings 1,230 4,965 Queen's Pier ,Ramsey 7,810 Michael would take them, he might be 2,955 Douglas Swing 13rldge, 2,855 converted. 5,000 Repairs to North Breakwater, Ramsey • 5,000 Mr T. Q. Cannell: I have had them. 15,000 Victoria Pier Repairs 1,000 (Laughter.) £85,685 £84,285 Mr R. C. Carinell: I am sorry to hear it said that these subsidies have come Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- to such a big amount. I am aware that cellency to give consideration to the same in this Court is always very sympathetic to framing the Estimates for the year 1953-54. (Estimated receipts from Passenger Tax, the agricultural votes. I come with Harbour Dues and Rents—£.24,830.) them year after year, and I know that if anything is fair, I am going to get it We have completed the Victoria Pier through. I may have some criticism, extension scheme except for a few minor details, for which we have allowed -but members are generally fair. The £1,000. The estimates under that head- hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr Corkhill, ing show a deduction of £14,000. The made a statement which I whole- principal items 'which call for remark heartedly agree with. At the present are at Douglas, where there is an in-. time there are about as many workers crease of £6,810, due to an increase of in the industry as the industry can £860 in the cost of maintenance, £900 afford to carry. I am going to add to for repairs to the North Quay wall, that, that if another war was to start, £1,750 for the renewal of plant, and the Government would have to put men £3,300 for repairs to the Breakwater. on the farms, because there are not This work on the North Quay wall is sufficient men to produce the goods. The essential. The item for plant includes only way we can produce the goods is the renewal of the radio beacon, which to increase the price of the goods to the is required by the statutory lighthouse „farmer, That is the Only way we can authority to conform with the findings and recommendations of the Inter- - da it.. The hon member for Peel passed national Telecommunications Union • P1). a , complaint that he has received conference held in Paris in 1951. The l'frorn the anglers about pollution of the Breakwater - repairs are essential to rivers, and he says _that the kiddies go cover localised failure to the fabric of •; to those rivers • to bathe. A former the structure. Allowance has been made - presentative of Peel- said there were in the Douglas figures for an estimated : .only -five baths in the whole of Peel. revenue from cranage of approximately :-,(Laughter.) Apparently they resort for £4,000. General expenses. show an in- - a sOlution to the river. --(Laughter.) I crease of £2,576, due to increase in f don't think "there is anything more to salaries of administrative and technical reply to, except a:Teinark from-the hon. staff and National Health and Super- -member-of the Council, Mr 'Canister. . I annuation contributions. The estimates `Made it definitely clear, 'when- I -moved for the Queen's Pier, .Ramsey, show an Ihe,-vote,•.that:we,were -keeping 'certain increase of £2,845. The sum of £2,920 7."subsidies'on a- '.'year---; later "than -. -in is required for underwater work in England_ 7.. - • -concreting the north •corner of the extension. This work is essential if the resolution WaS. csittied 'berthage for passenger steamers is to be TYNWALD COURT,, MARCH. 17,. 1953. 465

maintained. This sum is less by certain Pier go, than maintain it at an average small adjustments. 'This work is to be cost each year of between £4,000 and done at the concrete base of the £6,000. I believe this money could be extension, and will involve diving spent to better advantage. operations. It will make the extension perfectly safe for some years to come. Mr R. C. Cannel]: In Douglas, of The rising cost of materials and wages course. makes it very difficult ,,to estimate Mr Cowin: The chairman of the Har- -accurately, but I must say that the utmost consideration has been given to bour Board is very critical about sub- the need for economy. The harbours, sidies to farmers, but I believe that the particularly underwater work, have to work of the farmers in producing food be maintained at all costs, and unless is of much more benefit to the Island constant supervision . is exercised with than squandering, every year,- this regard to every little crack, there is money on the Queen's Pier, If it was danger. Such work; as members will for one or two years only, I could under- all appreciate, is difficult to get at; it is stand it; but I understand that it will not -work which you can put a gang of cog £5,000 or £6,000 every year to keep men to do at any time. It is tidal, and this relic of Queen Victoria's time going. storm and wind and everything else (Laughter.) I think it is time that we have to be taken into account. I must forgot the parigh pump,- and that the impress upon the Court the importance Harbour Board faced up to its respon- of maintaining the harbours. In the last sibilities. few months very serious damage has been done on the east coast of England, Mr Kerruish: I want to raise two and if we take any risks at all in minor points. First of all, why is it maintaining places like the breakwaters necessary, having taken off the toll at at Peel and Douglas, if we allow water the - bridge over Douglas harbour, to to seep into the fabric, it will be a very keep on employing men for having the serious matter indeed. If there is any gates operating, to inconvenience the question which a member likes to ask, I travelling public? Secondly, why. do will do my best to answer it. the Harbour Board insist upon taking Mr Nicholls seconded the resolution, toll at the Queen's Pier, Ramsey? The reserving his remarks, total revenue from the pie/. is £250 a year, and this includes rent's. I should Mr Cowin! I notice, in this total of say, without speaking widely, that three £81,285, that £5,000 is being allowed for Merl are employed to take the tolls by repairs to the North Breakwater at the oPeration of the shift system. I Ramsey and £7,810 for repairs to the think the wiser course would be to Queen's Pier. I am very pleased to see throw the pier open to the public and the chairman of the Board is not neg- remove these men to more remunera- lecting - his own town. (Laughter.) tive employment. There is an increase of ,£2,845 for the Queen's .Pier alone. The chairman has Mr McFee: In a recent public sitting told us this repair is absolutely neces- of the Highway Board, to consider the sary; that it will be underwater work, licensing of public service vehicles, a and divers " will have to go down. If det•titaticin from Castletown appeared we are going to continue to take passen- and asserted that there was a tacit gers at the Queen's Pier, I wonder if as understanding between Isle Of Man Road many. trips down by the divers will be Seriiices and the Harbour Board that the required as- there are passengers landed bridge at Castletown should not be at the pier. I would like some informa- strengthened so as to make it able to tion - as to how many passengers do bear the weight of double-decker buses. come.: My information is that the num- That was said in public sitting, and it ber:is pitifully small. Frankly, I think has not been publicly confirmed or theaarbour Board will be well advised denied by either party. I would like to to'fice. up to the question of whether know what the chairman Of the Har- it_woilld not be better to let the Queen's bour Board has to say on this matter.

. Harbour Board's Estimates, 466 tifriCTWAth cotrilt, iVIAttall 11, ibgi

Mr Crellin. A sum of £1,230 is set prise, and was prepared to finance it, down for the maintenance of the Vic- we would be very happy to deal with toria Pier Buildings. Has the Board it. ever considered removing these build- Mr Crellin: Buses need not go under- ings, and while keeping certain offices neath the building. there, making some soft of bus station? Mr Nicholls: What I had in mind was After all is said and done, this is the this. As members know, we don't al- entrance to Douglas. There are cafes ways have fine days even in the there, and a left-luggage office and so on. summer. I visualised—it was only my I am sure that plans could be drawn up personal idea—a type of structure for a bus station—nothing elaborate, but where buses could drive in at one side somewhere where the people arriving and out of the other. by any of the piers could know where Mr Corkhill: I believe I can fairly say to find their- buses. that I have never opposed any vote for Mr Nicholls: I don't want to usurp the Ramsey. (Laughter.) But in this par- privileges of the chairman in the way ticular- case, it rather strikes me that it of reply, but the hon member of the is unfortunate that we have to spend Council, Mr Crellin, has just mentioned E7,000 or 2.8,000 in maintaining this a subject whph at one time was a pet pier. I wonder if it could be proved subject of nline. I also was in favour that the pier is of use? Perhaps the of removing that• very inadequate chairman of the Board will tell us about that before he has finished. I don't "relic of Queen Victoria--tn use the ex- pression employed by the hon. member attempt to criticise, but £8,000 is a lot for North Douglas—which is known as of money, and from what I have heard, the Arcade, and building in its place a the pier doesn't seem to serve any use- modern structure which would provide ful purpose. If we have to spend this covered accommodation for bus passen- sum every year, it just becomes too gers, and any other amenities which are much. required therefor — and incidentally, The Attorney-General: 'Would it be would provide proper headquarters for possible, at Ramsey, to provide some the Harbour;t Board itself. The hon. sort of small dock where yachtsmen member's board has been pressing could moor their boats, and keep them us very hard for years to get out of afloat? We have a good number of Murray House, and we have not yet yachtsmen coming to the Island, and as been able to find suitable alternative members know, they are good spenders. accomodation. And I have always con- They cannot find a place where their tended that the headquarters of the yachts can float and go in and out on the Harbour Board should be somewhere in tide. There is a suitable area in Ram- the vicinity of the harbour. So, I do sey and it would not be a great expense agree that there should be some such or very difficult, and it would be the structure as 'Mr Crellin has suggested. means of bringing a very desirable The Board Went so far as to ask the class of visitor. Harbour Engineer to prepare plans and Mr Kneen: It has been said that the an estimate pf the Costs. But I am Queen's Pier is no longer necessary, but afraid that ,it frightened the members should be left to become derelict. I be- of the Boarl out of a year's growth lieve it was a mistake, in the first in- when they found the cost, and in view stance to make that pier. If the people of present fihancial circumstances, we at that time had made a solid concrete just had to drop the matter for the time- pier, extending from the present solid being. It tquld be •a very desirable pier, that would have been a proper thing, but unfortunately it would be an harbour for Ramsey, where ships could extremely •cdstly one. I am sure that enter and leave at any tide. But they the chairman and my fellow members haven't got that. But I think that be- are agreed that if we had an intimation fore we refuse a vote for this purpose, that the Coint desired such an enter- we will have to decide whether or not

Harbour Board's Estimates. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953 467 the Queen's Pier is going to be scrapped. draws a lot of visitors from. Belfast on So long as Tynwald hasn't decided that, the direct route. I do not think they the Board are obliged to make the pier ought to be obliged to go round by Dou- sound in every way-, safe for people to glas. One member asked what the walk on and safe for ships to moor by. revenue from the pier amounted to, in If you neglect this work, it will only tolls. Considering that the charge is add to the cost in other years. Most of only a penny to go down the pier, the the damage is under the sea; and be- amount produced by the toll is very con- cause of that, the upkeep of the pier siderable. You hear, on all sides, visi- is very expensive. ' But it would be tors to Ramsey saying how much they very unfair to refuse a grant for up- like, every night, to take a walk down keep, unless we have decided that the to the end of the pier. pier is no longer necessary. A Member: How old are they? Mr Craine: I have been very much (Laughter.) interested in this discussion on the The Acting-Speaker: Whatever their Queen's Pier, because I, in my lifetime age, they have fresh ideas — (more in Douglas, remember that we had two laughter)—and they get the fresh air. iron piers—one at Derby Castle and I think that the Queen's Pier is worth another at the foot of Broadway. The keeping in existence, and we ought to authorities had the pier at Derby Castle be given an assurance that we are not removed, and later they removed • the to be deprived of the ship calling at pier at Broadway. It spoiled the ap- Ramsey from Belfast and Ardrossan. pearance of the bay, and was of no great use—although people use to give Deemster Cowley: I have a good deal swimming and diving demonstrations of sympathy with the point of view ex- from it, and concerts were given at the pressed by the hon. member of the end of it. I think the time has come Council, Mr Kneen. If we are not going when the Ramsey people will believe to vote this money for the coming year, that their pier had better be done away then we must face the question of aban- with. A question was asked about the doning the Queen's Pier. That is too employment of gatekeepers at the big a question to be decided in a few Swing Bridge at Douglas. I think the minutes; there are various factors to be hon. member who asked the question considered. For many years, Ramsey forgot that this is a tidal harbour, and enjoyed a direct steamer, which was a it is necessary to open the bridge and very great advantage to the town. To- let ships go up and go down. day Ramsey has a very important clientele from Belfast particularly, but Mr Brownsdon: What about the gate- also from Ardrossan. I think it would men? be a fatal mistake if passengers from Mr Craine: We are bound to have the north of Ireland had to go to Dou- someone to prevent people from trying glas and then go to Ramsey by train to walk on the bridge when it is being or bus. It is bad enough to get into opened. Ramsey at nine o'clock at night, but The Acting-Speaker: I was beginning very often you don't get into Douglas to wonder whether the supporters of the until after ten. I have made that jour- project that the Queen's Pier should be ney too often not to know. For people done away with realised that if they do coming with a family, and especially that, Tynwald will be faced with a very with a young family—and that is the large expenditure in, some alternative class of visitor we get from Northern method whereby steamers can put in at Ireland—it is a very great hardship to Ramsey. have to go to Douglas and then to Ramsey. It is perfectly true that the A 'Member: Why? pier is costing a lot of money. But we The Acting-Speaker: Why? Because should not turn down this vote unless we cannot cut off the visitors 'who come 'hose who oppose it are Prepared here from Belfast. In the summer, Ramsey and now to bring up the question, for

Narbour Board's Estimates. 46A 'itI4WAI.,13 COURT, mArtoit 17, 1§a definite decision, as to whether or not very famous firm of engineers to give the pier should be scrapped. I suggest it a thorough examination. Speaking that the proper thing to do would be to from memory I think they gave it a life add to this resolution—as we did this of seven years from that time; subject, morning with reference to the capital of course, to reconsideration at the end expenditure on Noble's Hospital—words of seven years. I would suggest that as saying that the expenditure is not to be it is two or three years since that incurred unless it has been approved by examination His Excellency and Tynwald. Then the Mr Moore: Four, Harbour Board would proceed immedi- Mr Nicholls: As it is four years since ately, after due notice, to put the ques- that examination I would suggest that tion to Tynwald—'Queen's Pier, or no the best time to go into the whole ques- no Queen's Pier?" I don't know what tion of the pier is when it requires attitude I myself would take if that were another thorough examination and then done; I should be very sorry to see the we can go into the whole matter armed Queen's Pier go, because I think it would with the latest information. I think it be a very great hardship to Ramsey. would be better then than now. But members mustmake up their minds Mr Corlett: There is just one point to pass the Vote, or have the question upon which I would like the assistance of the future-of the pier decided here. of the chairman of the Board. We have It would be mpst unfair, on a snap vote been given in the estimate a total of like this, to deal with a very important £84,284 as against £85685 for last year. subject. I think we should accept this In the actual printed .estimates for last amendment which 1 suggest, and then year the net amount for the general either the Harbour Board of their own maintenance of harbours was £47;365. motion, or any other member, can have From that I would -assume that the the general subject properly discussed. revenue,for last year must have been in the neighbourhood of £38,000. I assume Mr Cowin: It is not a new opinion for that- the amount shOwn is the total me to express when I say that in my amount of expendituXe less revenue view any money spent on the Queen's therefore the revenue;.'must have been Pier is money- wasted. It is the view I in the neighbourhood of £38,000. I take took from the firstday I was a member it that the figure was arrived at by of the Harboul Commissioners, and I am substracting the revenue from the quite prepared to move the amendment expenditure of £85,685, which would as suggested- by Deemster Sir Percy leave the figure of £47-000. If that is so COwley. the estimated revenue last year must have been £38,320, and this year the Mr Brownsdon seconded. estimated revenue is £24,630. I wonder Mr Moore: I stand by the side of the if the hon. chairman of the Board will chairman in this matter, and support his guide us on this question and explain resolution because the pier means a lot how those questions were arrived at? to Ramsey. It means ,a lot of trade from The Governor: The amendment before Belfast and Ardrossan,:and if it is done the Court is that the resolution be away with- the'n it is just going to put passed with the addition of the provision Ramsey off • the map. I hope that no that there should be no capital expendi- one will seriously suggest that this pier ture in respect of the Queen's Pier. with- should be done:away with. It is .to cost out the approval of Tynwald. £7,000 this year it is true. but some years the costl,ds only £2,000. I think Mr Kelly: May I reply first? I have it would be a .great mistake to do away been a member of this.ourt since 1946, with this pier. and I hope the Court will and the hon. member for North Douglas never consideeit., has also been a member for the same • period and his frequent complaints Mr Nicholls:. Perhaps I might be about the Queen's Pier reminds me of allowed to add as a matter of informa- the time I was a small boy attending tion that some two or three years ago the Bucks Road Sunday School "a-lid we the Board became concerned about the used to sing a hymn entitled "tell us condition of the pier and employed a the Old, Old Story." • It is now an

Harbour Beard's Estimates. TYNWAL15 COURT, MARCH 'It 195. 3.- '469

• annual affair for the hon. member to Mr Kelly: You can say your "No, tell us the old, old story of the Queen's no's." It is an absolute fact. We have Pier both in March and in June. The the figures, and £250 from a penny hon. member was a . member of the toll represents a lot of people. Harbour Board and: if he wants me to Now, regarding the point raised by tell him what is useless in Douglas and the hon. member for Garff, about what is a complete waste of money. I the penny toll. I hope Tynwald can soon oblige. will not ask for that to be taken off, Mr Cowin: On a point of order. as if there is any damage we have got Mr Kelly: Nothing of the sort. the hon. things under control. As it is, we have Member has had his opportunity to give watchmen on the pier all the time, both it and now he must take it. Your Excel- day and night, and they try and prevent lency, if Tynwald Court intends to any damage being done, although dam- abandon the Queen's Pier then it will age is 'done. There has been some partially abandon Ramsey also. It is the damage, at the end of the pier. I do only way we can get people into Ram- appeal. to the Court to look upon the sey and when the tide is out we have pier as a useful thing so far as Ramsey two feet more water at the end of the is concerned. It is a terrifying thought Queen's Pier than at the Battery Pier to think that the pier might be taken in Douglas. Before the first war we away. The hon. member for North Dou- had 45,000 people landing at Ramsey glas is chairman of the Airports Board, although during the last war we did not and is doing his best to get people here, have the same number of people coming but the other end of the Island has no to Ramsey. The. Isle of Man Steam airport, and now he is doing his best to Packet Company's modern steamers are do away with the pier -as well, so as to not as suitable for discharging pas- make Ramsey a backwater. sengers at the pier as the old ones were Mr Brownsdon: Shame. as they might bump against the pier. Mr Kelly: He ought to be ashamed of Mr Brownsdon: Then the whole ship himself. He must be dreaming about will fall apart. (Laughter.) the pier, the times he mentions it. If Mr Kelly: There might be some you want to do away with Ramsey, then damage. . do away With the pier. It was not so Mr Crellin: I hope the Steam Packet long ago that Douglas had a wooden' Company is not being blamed for pier, but it had not been up a year damage. We pay every penny for any before it was swept away in the night. damage we do. Mr Cowin: How long was that? Mr Kelly: We are going to strengthen Mr Kelly: Before your time. There the pier. The base is to be concreted was a similar structure at Peel, and that and it will involve work by divers. The was swept away; but the Isle of Man hon. member for Middle has referred to Government has since built up the piers the report on the pier by Messrs Dorman and now Peel has one of the finest break- Long which stated that the life of the waters in the British Isles. The north pier was seven years, but it- will last for breakwater at Ramsey was built about 27 years the way it is used now. the same time, and since 1939 this Court Mr Cowin: It did not say that in the has voted sums for its reconstruction and report. maintenance. It will cost another Mr Kelly: It did, Inasmuch as the pier £35,000 to £40,000 before the work is would have:to be packed by. thousands completed, but if it is not done Ramsey of people every day to wear it out; but will be washed away. so long as that is not so, the pier will Mr Brownsdon: Where to? (Laughter.) serve Ramsey for many years to come. Mr Kelly: I am quite sincere about I am not saying the- pier is not well this matter. ,,I happen to be the member patronised_ in the season, as more people for Ramsey and also chairman of the use it than Use' the-. Promenade portion Harbour Board, so I can be spokesman of the Victoria Pier in Douglas. for both sides, and I hope the amend- Cries of "No,.no." ment will not be carried. I do not think

Harbour Board's Estimates.

470 TYNWALD COURT,, MARCH 17, 1953.

I will sleep to-night if it is passed. The Queen's Pier. I might also add that hon. member for Garff raised the ques- during the war the pier served a useful tion of the swing bridge. In theory he purpose in aiding the security of the was quite right, but there are certain country. It was used extensively by practical difficulties about that bridge. the Admiralty and the Air Ministry as In 1938, the Harbour Commissioners 'a look-out post, and is manned by brought over an expert to examine it, the coast guards now. and he recommended that a two tons Mr Cowin: Did you say 4,500 people limit should be maintained at all costs disembarked at Ramsey? on that bridge. He pointed out that the bridge itself could be a danger if some- Mr Kelly: There were approximately thing happened to it and it fell into the 2,250 each way. harbour, shutting off the way to ship- Mr Cowin: It would be cheaper to ping. During the whole of last year, send them individually by taxi from the bridge was turned over 1,500 times, Douglas to Ramsey. and there were as many as 17 operations Mr McFee: Might I have an answer in one day. Sometimes ships have to to my question about Castletown bridge? be sheltered in the upper harbour at Mr Kelly: There has been no collusion times of emergency, and once an Isle of between the Board and Isle of Man Road Man Steam Packet Company ship Services so far as the bridge is con- sheltered there. We have got to have cerned. men on duty to operate the bridge and maintain it and supervise the heavy The Governor:- I will put the resolu- Wagons and the number of cars that go tion with the amendment, "with the ap- over it. Even a herd of cattle is a danger proval of Tynwald." as there is a lot of weight in 20 cattle. The amendment was lost and the The Board has under consideration the resolution was carried. electrification of the movement of the bridge, and so do away with some of ISLE OF MAN SOCIAL SERVICES.— the staff, but a good deal of capital ex- ESTIMATE OF £392,705. penditure is involved. It may be better Mr Nivison: I beg to move the fol- to carry on as we are doing now, with lowing resolution:— two men on duty during the course of Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Social the day. In the summer, the bridge is Services have submitted their estimates of working from 6-30 a.m, until midnight, expenditure, totalling £392,705, made up as and in the winter from 7 a.m. until 11 follows, in respect of National Insurance, p.m. That is 16 hours, and as they work Old Age, etc.. Pensions, Family Allowances, etc., in the financial year ending 31st March, an eight-hour day, there has to be two 1954. men. That is all I can say about the Revised swing bridge. Estimate 1952-53 The Attorney-General: There are two • 1. The Old Age Pen- men employed all the time? sions Act, 1939- Mr Kelly: Yes. £54,000 (a) Old Age Pen- sions £52,000 Deemster Cowley: May I reply to the 8,500 (b) Incapacity and hon. member for Glenfaba? The, 185,000 Blind Persons 8,000 to which the hon. member refers is 1,200 (c) Administration 1,500 covered on page 642 of the Debates for £61.500 June, 1952. The total amount of the 2. The Personal In- juries (Civilians) vote from revenue was £47,365. There Scheme— was £21,000 additional revenue expected '425 (a) Allowances and from harbour dues, and a £2,000 grant, Pensions 500 that makes 123,000, and there was 5 (b) Administration 5 115,000 in connection with the Victoria 505 Pier, from the Accumulated Fund, which 3. National Assistance Act— makes a total of £85,000 odd. 83,250'. (a) Assistance 98.600 Mr Kelly: I might say that during the 3,000 (b) Administration 3,900 year 4,500 people actually landed at the 102,500

14le of Mao Social Services—Estimate of 2.392,705,

TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. 471

4. Family Allowances were 213 of these last year. The total Act, 1946- estimate for the coming year from 86,000 (a) Family Allow- National Insurance is £546,500, and all ances 102.000 this money is paid out of the fund. 2,000 (b) Administration 2,500 104,500 Industrial injuries, out of the Industrial Injuries Fund is estimated to cost 5. National Insurance . Act, 1948- £9,000 in the coming year, and we had 68,750 (a) Section 2 (3) 55 awards in payment at the end of the 72,500 year. Old age pensions, as compared (a) 95,000 (b) Section 2 (3) with retirement pensions—these are (b) 95,000 paid by means test and are not contri- 117.500 butory—are estimated to cost £52,000, 6,000 6. National Insurance (In- and there were 874 of these pensions dustrial Injuries) Act 6,200 last year. All that money for old age 4,000 7. Repair and Improvement pensions is provided by Tynwald. Blind of Widows' Houses persons are estimated to cost £1,500 for 20 people, and incapacity pensions are £362.130 £392,705 estimated to cost £6,500 for 113 people. There is an increase in family allow- Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- ances for the coming year which will cellency to give consideration to the same in framing the Estimates for the year 1953-54. be a full year at the new award of 8s. for the second and succeeding children. In moving the vote for the Social Ser- The cost for the coming year will be vices Board for the coming year, I £102,000, and Tynwald provides all that think bon. members will expect me to money. Personal injuries will account explain certain things, especially the for the small amount of £500—this is matters which have altered since last for persons injured during the war. year. In the first place, hon. members National Assistance, it is estimated, is would like an explanation as to the going to cost over £100,000. This has total amount of money spent by the caused the Board some concern, and I Board. The amount set down on the hope to give some explanation in detail, agenda of £392,705 refers only- to the but it can be seen that the total ex- monies which Tynwald will be asked to penditure is estimated to exceed supply. The Board of Social Services £844,000 for the coming year. Part of estimates-"to spend in the year 1953-54, the income comes from National Insur- the sum of £844,100, and that money ance, and the income from this source will be spent in many ways. Under the totals £435,000. Industrial injuries total heading of National Insurance, contri- £30,000, and the National Health Ser- butory retirement pensions will cost vice £47,000; a total of £512,000. There £365,000 in respect of 4,460 pensioners. is a mistaken idea that the people who Widows benefit will cost £34,500 for the pay for the stamps pay for the service, 513 widows in receipt of benefit. Sick- but it should be known that the propor- ness benefit will cost £75,000 in the full tion from stamps going towards the ser- year, and there were up to the 31st vice is only £47,000 out of £512,000. December last, 982 persons registered as As regards old age pensions, you will sick. This payment is taken out of the see that the amount is slowly decreas- National Insurance Fund, and we will ing and will continue to decrease as consider the uneinployment question that class of person is gradually fading later. I might say with regard to the away, and their place will be taken by unemployed that it is estimated to cost retirement pensions. As from 1948, it £60,000 for unemployment benefit in was compulsory for everyone to become the coming year, and there were 803 a contributor, and these non-contribu- persons in receipt of benefit up to the tory pensions are all subject to a means 31st December last. There were 770 test. Now as regards National Assist- persons, eligible for maternity benefit ance, I think the Court would like some during the year, and the estimate for explanation here. The amount which the coming year is £8,000. Death grants the Board is asking for under this head are estimated to cost £4,000, as there is £102,500. There is a mistaken idea

Isle of Man Social Services—Estimate of £392,705.

• 472 T''2NWALD Coukt, MARCH 17, 1953.

that the bulk of this money is given to persons having five years residential people who are non-contributors, but the qualification, otherwise they get a ticket bulk of the money goes to people who to the town from which they came. are entitled to other awards, but who National Assistance is causing the Social find that these other awards are not Services Board some concern, as there sufficient, and they are allowed to has been a sharp rise in the number of supplement them with supplementary successful claims due to the increased pensions. In this respect the supple- cost of living, and unemployment in the ment to old age pensions is estimated to building trade. As time goes on the amount to £47,000, which is 47 per cent. number of people who claim assistance of the total for National Assistance. On may increase. The tendency is that the 31st December, 1952, there were 925 demands on public money will increase. such persons, almost 1,000 people. It The old age pensioners award was not will be borne in mind that all National an increase' to 32s. 6d. from 26s., as the Assistance is subject to a means test, Chancellor of the Exchequer in England and anyone with over £400 is not said where hardship was proved they entitled to National Assistance. Regard- could claim from the National Assist- ing sick persons, excluding pulmonary ance. So it is safe to say that as the tuberculosis, the estimate is £6,500 for number of old age pensioners and retire- the coming year in payments to 114 ment pensions increased, the number of people or 6i per cent. of the total for people who applied for National Assist- National Assistance. With regard to ance would increase, tco. If the number tuberculosis, there are 30 people in of people who were unemployed or sick payment at the end of the year, amount- increased, it might also increase the ing to a total of £3,000, or 3 per cent. number who applied for National Assist- of the total figure. There are 66 blind ance. As to the method by which the persons, costing £6.600; and 62 handi- people are checked, every man or capped persons, costing £7,000. These woman who is able to work and claims are people not classed as sick persons, assistance has to make their claim at or unemployed, but handicapped. Then the Employment Exchange, and periodi- there are women, who because of their cal checks are made of workers and old physical condition or age or because age pensioners and retired persons, and they have small children, are not com- the number of checks that have to be pelled to register for work, of which made is rather great, as the total num- there are 143, costing £14,000; and child- ber of awards in payment at the end of ren in foster homes, costing £500. The the year 1952 was 1,538. With regard 171 persons required to register for to the next item under the National In- work cost £12,000, or 12 per cent. of the surance Act, 1948, those amounts are total. These are able bodied persons statutory. Section 2 (3) (a) is Tynwald's who have perhaps exhausted their un- contribution; the employer contributes, employment insurance, or require it and also the employee, and Tynwald, supplementing. They can get their rent and that amount is £72,500 in a full or certain awards, though not a great year. The amount of £45,000 is also amount, as some people think, and who laid down in Section 2 (3) (b) as the imagine that they are considerably payment to the fund in its early stages. better off than some of those who are It was done in England and also here, working. Our assistance, in the case and it is up to the first five years of the of a married couple, amounts to 59s., scheme. In England they abolished that whereas under the scale for sickness or amount during the time when there was unemployment it is only 54s., but,- in a heavy burden of expenditure, but we addition, they can claim their rent up to have kept it in, and the matter has to El a week, though invariably it does not be reviewed after the scheme has been amount to that much. Of this class of in operation for five years. It will be people there are only 12 per cent. under the year 1955 when it will be reviewed, National Assistance. Then there are and it will be the subject of a report certain emergency cases who can be from an actuary, and Tynwald- will sent back to England. National Assist- determine whether it will be continued. ance in The Isle of Man is only paid to The item under the National Insurance

Isle of Man Social Services—Estimate of £392,705. Y'NWALID COTJ13.14, MARCH •17, /953. 47

(Industrial Injuries) Act, £6,200, is scheme is based on the English actuaries' about the same as last year, though it report, and in 1954 to 1955 in England it is slightly more, due to the statutory is anticipated they will be "going into alteration. There is no expenditure on the red" to the extent of £20,000,000 a the repair and improvement to widows' year. Our figures have closely followed houses anticipated this year. Last year the English figures. In 1966 to 1967 it is only £2,500 of the £4,000 was taken up. anticipated in England at the present 'The Attorney - General: There will rates and contributions the deficit will • have to be a carry forward. be £260,000,000 a year, largely due to .Mr Nivison: There was a vote for the the fact that retirement pensions take widows' home, and that can be replaced. 70 per cent. of the total. More and more In moving these estimates I have taken people will become entitled to retirement some time of the Covrt, but I feel it. was pensions, and if we continue on these lines, surely the reserves will be eaten necessary in the case of the National Assistance scheme to give rather a full into. What they have will not last very explanation. The increase in family long, and in England they will be faced, allowances is due to the fact that the if they are not to end by completely family allowance has increased from 5s draining the barrel, by three alterna- to 8s, but all the other parts are statu- tives. That means either increasing the tory with the exception of the national contribution, increasing the amount pro- assistance, which was passed by Tyn- vided by the Exchequer (in our case that wald, but it is being very carefully is the amount provided by Tynwald), or watched by the Board. We cannot delaying the time of payment, and guarantee that it will be reduced, but making the retirement pension payable it will be closely watched. later than the age of 65. No Govern- ment will want to reduce the benefits Mr Taggart seconded the resolution. paid, because if they reduce the amount Mr Brownsdon: There is one point, from the National Insurance Fund, they your Excellency, which I would be glad will have to increase from the National if the chairman would elucidate. The Assistance Fund. We will therefore be total expenditure, according to the receiving in the coming year more figures, is £844,100, and though they money than we require for the year's were going to receive £512,000 from working, but the balance goes into the stamps, the balance of £332,900 which Industrial Injuries Fund, and will be remains is less than the £392,705 they subsequently used in an emergency. It are asking for—£.59,805 less in fact. will be necessary, however, for the That is unless I have the figures down Ministry in England, and the Board in wrongly. the Isle of Man ,to come and ask for more money, or increase the contribu- Mr Nivison: It is true to say that the tions, or delay the date they are to be income in the National Insurance Fund paid. this 'year, last year, and since the incep- tion of the scheme, is greater than the Deemster Cowley: I would like to expenditure. It will continue to be thank the hon. member for Middle for greater, though not to the extent Mr the full report he has given the Court Brownsdon has spoken of. Members of the work of the Board. With regard have said to the Board, "Can we not use to the last point mentioned, anyone who some of the surplus which is piling up casts his mind back to the days of the for the relief of unemployment?" One Friendly Society and other insurance of the greatest worries of the Social Ser- schemes, remembers that in the old days vices Board is that whilst we are able a man on entering paid a premium ac- to put by certain reserves at the moment, cording to his age, whereas now every- as we have done in the past, we have to one comes in at one level. It is obvious face a time, probably in 1954, when it that you must create a large surplus for will not be possible to put anything by, people who become eligible for pensions but we shall be "going into the red" to as they get older. So though the fund an alarming extent year by year. The is piling up a considerable surplus, it

Isle of Man Social Services—Estimate of £392,705. 474 TYNWA14) COURT, MARCH 17, 1953.

will all be wanted, and the money will constructive work which would be better probably prove insufficient to meet the for the community and better for the increasing burden. I particularly wel- men than having them kicking their comed what he said about National As- heels in idleness? I know it will evolve sistance, because I felt that there was a financial considerations, but I think the growing figure under this head, in 1952 idea is right if we could find the machin- £54,000, in 1953 £86,000, and now ery required. It is unfortunate that we £104,500, an increase over last year's have to make this estimate, and that a estimate of over £18,000, but it was in- sum like this has to be given away for teresting to see from the figures he gives men to keep body and soul together, how the amount required was made up. when by better use of the money it could It was also interesting to find that the be spent wisely in methods and employ- main item, roughly speaking the por- ment schemes by which the community tion of National Assistance which might could benefit There is a lot which could be subject to criticism, is £12,000. One be Clone, for instance, in the improve- hears rumours of people who have re- ment and beautifying of our country fused or not undertaken work from the withOut dipping too deep into Govern- Employment Exchange, in some cases ment funds. I do not think people would getting fromNationalAssistance as much object the they saw the men could be as their neighbour who works on the sensibly and remuneratively employed highroads is getting for a full week's in the winter months, rather than merely work, which makes one wonder whether being employed as a stopgap. I think the working of the Act, or even the Act some means could be found whereby this itself, does not require some review. £00,000 could be married to a Govern- Otherwise this thing is likely to increase, ment grant to provide a scheme to cover and become an intolerable burden, but the unemployment with which we are I am glad to hear that the matter is re- likely to be faced again next winter. ceiving the close attention of the Board, Could the chairman give us some idea who are watching this matter, which of the reserves at the disposal of the might be subject to abuse if it were not Social Services Board at the moment? closely watched. So we feel that while Mr Nicholls: I would like to ask the we are carrying out our duty, we are not • question whether, if a worker or em- encouraging idleness, or a situation in ployee has voluntarily given up- his em- which men are getting as much for not ployment, is it possible for him to obtain working as for an honest day's work. I National Assistance? I am informed that would like to thank the hon. member for it is. I cannot help thinking, if so, that 'the details he has given us ,and am glad it is all wrong. If a person is in good to find that the problem is reduced to steady employment and gives it up, with smaller limits than was expected. very little prospect of getting fresh Mr Gerrard: I would also like to con- work, and by doing so can apply for un- gratulate the hon. member for Middle employment benefit, it is reducing it an on the able way he has explained the de- an anomalous position. I would like to tails of the working of the Social Ser- be informed on the matter. vices Board. He mentioned during his Mr Moore: I have only one criticism to remarks that there had been a sugges- make of the Social Services vote. I tion that certain of the funds of the think the Board are doing a great ser- Social Services Board should be applied vice, but I must say I was greatly per- to the relief of unemployment. I brought turbed to find that next year's estimates the matter up in Tynwald some time ago. for family allowances had gone up to It was from no desire to eat into the re- £104,000, £16,500 more than last year's serve fund, but to deal with the unem- estimates. I think it is wrong that there ployment problem. He estimates that should be no means test for family allow- the sum of £60,000 will be required for ances. I do not think the scheme was the corning year for unemployment bene- created to give people earning perhaps fit. Could not some method be evolved as much as £1,000 a year something to deal with the situation, and find some extra in allowances— for their children.

Isle of Man Social Services—Estimate of £392,705. htWA Lb COURT, MARCH 17, 19t3. 475 •

It is going a bit too far. It is not neces- work or play. If that happens it will sary, and they do not want it. The send up the price of coal. These things time has arrived when there should be a should be carefully watched. Now, these means test so far as family allowances are the sort of things which are happen- are concerned. I mentioned this matter ing, and perhaps the chairman of the in the lower chamber, and I would like Board would indicate whether the Board to ask the chairman of the Social Ser- are prepared to investigate. They are vices Board now whether he has con- only little things in themselves, but they sidered it, and is prepared to make that amount, in the long run, .to a big finan- recommendation. cial whole and I think we have arrived at the stage when we should investigate Mr Kelly; I would like to ask the them. He has also mentioned the chairman of the Board a question with National Assistance Acts. Now, some of regard to the reserve fund of the us opposed this Act. We were told—I National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) think I am correct—that it was going to Act. We are asking for £6,200 out of cost us £47,000, and for that sum of It is our revenue to cover that risk. money were were going to do away with difficult to apportion what risk the Isle the Poor Law Guardians, and so on. of Man runs industrially, compared with Now the sum is £100,000, and the chair- England, and the Isle of Man, which is a seaside resort, should pay propor- man has warned us it will go still higher. tionately less, as there is no shipbuilding, Now is the time to find out where we are heavy engineering or coal mining. The going. It is only by the co-operation of whole thing is farcical. I have listened all the concernS involved that we can carefully to what the chairman has said, possibly investigate all these various as- bid, I think the time has arrived when pects and suggestions which have come some co-ordinating committee of Tyn- up since 1948; it is only experience that wald, with the Board of Social Services, can prove whether there is something having regard to their experience, radically wrong. I know people who should find out what is going wrong. seem to come out all right. They are Everyone has heard of incidents with re- employed a day or so on a farm; then a gard to payments. Some are true, and day or so with the Isle of Man Steam some are untrue. And the officials and Packet Company, for which they get a people handling the cash should be able nice day's pay; they may also do jobs in to put their fingers on the anomaly. In the evening, but night work is dis- Ramsey one hears of a person who regarded, and then they draw three works on a Monday or Tuesday who is days unemployment pay. No one knows getting £3 or £4 for himself, wife and what they are really earning. When children, for whom he gets a family that is allowed to happen, I say there is allOwance, yet he can still get unemploy- something wrong. A single man, after ment insurance for the period from 180 days, goes out of unemployment Wednesday to Saturday. You have a benefit, but then he can make applica- 10s.9d stamp for a man, and I have heard tion to the Board of Social Services, and of a man who was offered half a day's he is allowed to do that by law. He work, and by the time he had paid his asks the Board to give him something to share of the stamp, he only gets 6s, yet live on, and the Board does so; some- he was anxious to work, and did not times he actually gets more money under want to go on unemployment pay. You the National Assistance Act than he got get people who want to work, and are under the Unemployment Act because, prevented by the system we have here. sometimes, he is allowed something to- We should adapt ourselves to our cir- wards his rent or lodgings. I do not cumstances, and not blindly adopt the know what the maximum pay is, but per- system from across the water. We have haps the chairman can explain that part under the Harbour Board a dock labour of it. I think the time has arrived when scheme where they are demanding a we should examine what has been hap- guaranteed wage of £6 75 6d a week, pening since 1948 with regard to the

Isle of Man Social Services—Estimate of £392,705. 476 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953.

National Insurance, the Industrial In- Fund. Mr Kelly has raised this before. juries, and the National Assistance Act. A person can receive injury benefit for We ought to make inquiries. a period of time—for 26 weeks—at 45s Mr Nivison: I am most grateful to a week. If at the end of that time lie hon, members for the questions they is still suffering from the result of his have asked, and I hope I shall be able injury, he is assessed by a Medical to answer them to their satisfaction. I Board, and that Board can give him an am also grateful for the compliments award, _if necessary, which will be pay- which have been passed on my presenta- able for the remainder of the injured tion of the estimates. With regard to man's life, and so, whilst 1 admit that the questions asked by the hon. member the risks are not as great as in a highly for Ramsey, Mr Kelly, I would say that industrialised area, we are bound to the increases in National Assistance are assume that the claims will increase largely, almost solely, due to the increase as the years go by, and then, too the in cost of living. The Chancellor of the amount of the contribution, and the Exchequer stated when he was taking amount granted by Tynwald, are to be off certain food subsidies that, in order reviewed at the end of this five-year to counterbalance the inevitable rise in period, and it may be found that the the cost of living, he would increase the amount can be reduced in view of the family allowances. This is not a claims made. With regard to the children's allowance, but an allowance possibility of setting up a committee, or to augment the family income, and also a commission, to investigate the whole the rate of National Assistance benefits. working of the scheme, I can assure Mr but the hon. members will have noted Kelly we are constantly watching every that. The rates have gone up, and more section of the scheme. 1.would say that and more people are becoming entitled the General Purposes Committee; the to them because the rates have gone up. Assistance Commission and the Old With regard to the man who works one People's Committee are continually or two days and plays for the rest of watching how this scheme is being the 'week, as far as the Ramsey Dock implemented. We are exposing certain Scheme is concerned—I may be quite people who have not paid their contribu- wrong—I believe that the method at tions, and people who have drawn present in being is cheaper than a benefits to which they are not entitled, guaranteed week for the Ramsey dock and we require every able bodied man scheme. to register for work before he can draw National Assistance. The Court will The Attorney-General: There are 20 quite appreciate that where you have of them. 1,100 people—no, 1,500 people, drawing Mr Kelly: No, 17. National Assistance, there may be one Mr Nivison: If the hon. member for or two who may abuse the scheme, and Ramsey will come forward with a dock these one or two will receive a great scheme for a guaranteed week we would more attention than the remaining 1,500 be relieved, but we were informed it whose claims are just. I hope the hon. would be cheaper to have it this way members of the Court will realise that than to have a guaranteed week for the w.e are watching very carefully, but, at dockers. the same time, I admit there may be an odd scrounger who will get away with Mr. Kelly: I was not referring to the something. I would like to deal with Mr dock scheme at all; I was referring to Nicholls' question about the person who working for the Steam Packet Company. having exhausted his unemployment Mr Nivison: Unemployment benefit is pay, or getting the sack, or even giving paid out of the • National Insurance up his job, being entitled to unemploy- Fund, and it is in respect of something ment insurance. " As the Court knOws, to which the men have made contribu- if a person leaves, voluntarily he does tions. It would be nice, I think we will not get any unemployment -insurance all agree. if there were no calls upon .the money. for six weeks. Now some people. Insurance Fund; then the premiums imagine that a person'can say "I will go paid would be almost negligible. Now along to the National -Assistance Board with regard to the Industrial Injuries and get some moneys" Our 'practice is _ - Isle of Man Sitcial Services—Estimate of. £392,705.- -- • TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 17, 1953. 477 • this: no man who has been in full after all possible schemes have been employment—I do not know whether we started, it will be seen that the position have statutory power for this practice, would be difficult. Government and but we are doing it—is given any assist- other bodies would say, "Let us have our ance until a month has elapsed. There schemes, and claim part of the cost from are exceptions to that rule, of -course, the National Insurance Reserve Fund," for instance where a wife and children and they would go on to say, "We were are destitute, and we do make excep- first with our schemes, and therefore we tions, but, generally speaking we do not are entitled to part of the money." There give assistance for a month. We have are, indeed, scores of difficulties in the claims, naturally. We even have claims way of using this money for such pur- on a Monday morning from men who poses. The balance, incidentally.,, at the have 'finished work on Saturday with end of 1952-53, in the National Insurance the week's pay packet, but we consider Reserve Fund, was £1,607,000. This is he ought to live on that pay packet for a formidable amouht and the interest it a week. He would have to if he were yields is very useful, and goes a long still at work, but where a woman is way towards certain of our expenditure. destitute— Reference is made to it, and the income The Attorney-General; Then you pay it brings in— it to the wife. The Attorney-General: It is all in the Mr Nivison: Yes, that is the practice, booklet. but they do not get it on the following Mr Nivison: Yes. I hope hon. mem- Monday, either; but, if exceptional cir- bers will realise that if we had a full- cumstances are proved, then we do pay scale debate, I would be able to give full money to the wife. The point which details as to how impossible it would has been raised by my colleague, Mr be to apply money from the National Nicholls, is a point which we are speci- Insurance Fund to supplement the Un- ally watching. The hon. member for employment Fund for the winter months. Rushen, Mr Moore, raised the matter of I hone I have given satisfaction in my family allowances. I read the report on answers. the debate in England on this question very closely, and it was advocated there The resolution was carried. . should be a means test for family al- 16Wances; but Mr Peake, the Under- Secretary, strongly condemned the TELEVISION BOOSTER.—GOVERNOR means test in this respect. Family al- •HAS NOTHING TO REPORT. lowances were increased, it will be re- The Acting-SpeaKer: Before we close membered, when food subsidies were re- down, Your Excellency, I was questioned duced, and the increases Were made to offset the increased cost of living for in another place, and it was suggested 1 large families. A means test is certainly should ask you, very :zindly, to inform not a thing, Mr Moore, which the Board the Court whether you have any in- of Social Services would recommend, so formation with regard to the provision I would say that no useful purpo:e can of a television booster for the Isle of be served by going into the matter Man. I would point out it is a matter further. If, on the other hand, Tynwald of extreme urgency that something decided that it should be done, then we should be done before the Coronation. would tunic to administer it: With re- in view of the debate .which took place gard to the oliestion put by the hon. in this Court. member for Glenfaba, Mr Gerrard, on The .Governor: I have no further whether the National Insurance Fund answer to give, but the matter is not should be used for the Unemployment allowed to sleep. Fund, this would present a tremendous The Acting-Speaker: Thank you, sir. anao-unt of -difficulty as far as adminis- tration IS concerned. During the winter The Governor: The Court will now months every board would claim a pro- stand adjourned. until 11 a.m. to-mor- portion of their expenditure, and when row, Wednesday, morning. we consider we have 800 unemployed The Court adjotnned.

.--Television_Boosterr--Governor has nothing to Report.