COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 32 T2003/4 Volume 121, No. 6 ISSN 1742-2256

T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N

(HANSARD)

Douglas, Tuesday, 9th December 2003

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Bucks Road, Douglas, . © Court of Tynwald, 2003 Printed by The Copy Shop Limited, 48 Bucks Road, Douglas, Isle of Man Price Band J 440 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003

Present:

The (The Hon. N Q Cringle)

In the Council: The Attorney General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), Hon. C M Christian, Hon. P M Crowe, Mr D F K Delaney, Mr D J Gelling CBE, MrJRKniveton, Mr E G Lowey, Mr L I Singer and Mr G H Waft, with Mrs M Cullen, Clerk of the Council.

In the Keys: The Speaker (The Hon. J A Brown)(Castletown); Mr D M Anderson (Glenfaba); Hon. A R Bell and Mrs A V Craine (Ramsey); MrREQuine OBE (Ayre); Mr J D Q Cannan (Michael); Mrs H Hannan (Peel); Hon. S C Rodan (Garff); Mr P Karran, Hon. R K Corkill and Mr A J Earnshaw (); Mr G M Quayle (); MrJRHoughton and Mr R W Henderson (Douglas North); Hon. D C Cretney and Mr A C Duggan (Douglas South); Hon.RPBraidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Hon. A F Downie and Hon. J P Shimmin (Douglas West); Capt. A C Douglas (Malew and Santon); Hon. J Rimington, Mr Q B Gill and Mr P A Gawne (Rushen); with Mr M Cornwell-Kelly, Clerk of Tynwald. TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 441 T121

Business transacted Page

Tribute to John Allen Cowell Kennedy Nivison, CBE, JP ...... 443 Bill for signature ...... 443 Papers Laid before the Court ...... 443 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 444 1. Lost motions to receive reports — consequences...... 444 2. Tynwald Questions to Ministers —Requests for limit ...... 445 3. Deputy Chief Minister —Appropriateness of appointment ...... 445 4. Government introduced legislation —Regulatory impact assessment ...... 447 5. Island s public and private sector staff pool —Current standards by comparison with off-Island pool ...... 448 6. Repairs and maintenance of private dwellings —Continuance of 5% VAT rate ...... 449 7. Fly-tipping —Prosecutions and procedures ...... 450 8. British Nuclear Fuels Limited —T echnetium 99 removal trial results ...... 453 9. Food handling legislation —Application to persons working in food industry ...... 454 10. Waste disposal charges report —T ynwald s failure to receive ...... 454 11. Wildlife and Conservation Office —Improvement of profile ...... 456 12. Hill lands and heather moors —Recognition of importance...... 457 13. Manx and other minority languages —British-Irish Council inter-governmental support ...... 458 14. Isle of Man Constabulary —Ensuring public confidence ...... 459 15. Emergency joint services control room —Costs and completion ...... 462 16. Senior police officers suspension —Chief Constable s decision ...... 463 17. Police communication with Members of Tynwald —Authority and terms of Chief Constable s edict ...... 464 18. Chief Probation Officer —Professional management qualifications ...... 465 19. Bus shelters in Peel —Departmental provision of ...... 466 20. Random breathalyser testing of motorists —Reasons for legislative change and lack of publicity ...... 467 21. Road traffic accident deaths —Comparison of Island, UK and Ireland figures ...... 470

Procedural ...... 471

Questions for Written Answer 22. Refurbishment of Old Government Buildings —Review of facilities ...... 472 23. Gas conversion programme —Complaints and steps taken...... 472 24. New water treatment works —Cost implications of planning application failure ...... 473 25. Tynwald EU Scrutiny Committee —Possibility of establishment ...... 473 26. Career progression and training in public sector —Government policy ...... 473 27. Acting Ministers, Board Chairmen and others —Legal indemnity for Members with responsibilities ...... 474 28. Water supplies for new developments —Steps to solve DoLGE/Water Authority dispute ...... 474 29. Mount Murray Report Part Two —Expected date of publication ...... 474 30. European Constitution —Seminars on implications for Island ...... 474 31. Legislative changes affecting people s rights —Absolute right to prior advice by Government ...... 475 32. Control of Employment Act 1975, Schedule 2, Part 1 ...... 475 33. Discrimination in favour of Manx residents —Government commitment to equal opportunities ...... 475 34. Complaints against DHSS —Number received by Noble s Hospital Complaints Manager ...... 475 35. Island Branding Initiative —Constitution, resources and leadership ...... 475 36. Advertising senior public service vacancies internationally —Conflict with Work Permit Committee outlook ...... 476 37. The Government Plan 2003 to 2006 —Administration s aims and objectives ...... 476 38. Breathalyser testing and alcohol limits for drivers —Public notices and information ...... 477 39. The Nunnery Limited —Purchase of the Nunnery Estate ...... 477 40. Waste operations tipping receipts —Apparent discrepancy ...... 477 41. Proposed new Onchan secondary school — Demographic justification, alternatives and impact on existing schools...... 478 42. Board of Education members —Attendance at meetings and payments ...... 480 43. International Business School Limited —Money and staff secondments from Department ...... 480 442 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003

44. Social workers professional qualifications —Organisations responsible ...... 481 45. International Business School —Departmental secondments ...... 481

Announcement of Royal Assent ...... 481

Procedural ...... 481

Orders of the Day Personal Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment...... 482 Personal Statement by the Attorney General ...... 483 Matter of Urgent Public Importance —Leave to move motion lost ...... 484 Local Authority Boundary Extensions —Statement by the Chief Minister ...... 484 Drug and Alcohol Strategies —Report received ...... 485 Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 —Debate commenced ...... 496 Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 —Debate continued —Motion carried ...... 499

Procedural ...... 507

Onchan District Act 1986 —Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 —Debate resumed and adjourned ...... 507 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 —T raffic Signs (Application) Regulations 2003 approved ...... 513 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 —School Crossing Patrol Sign Regulations 2003 approved...... 514 Betting Act 1970 —Betting Duty (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2003 approved ...... 514 Customs and Excise Act 1993 —Customs and Excise (Community Instruments) (Application) Order 2003 approved .. 515 Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 — Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code 2003 — Motion deferred... 515 Animal Health Act 1996 —Animal Health (Slaughter and Compensation) (Amendment) Order 2003 approved ...... 515 Animal Health Act 1996 —Animal Health (Revocations) Order 2003 approved ...... 515 Animal Health Act 1996 —Animal Health (Notification and Slaughter) Order 2003 approved ...... 516 Animal Health Act 1996 —W elfare of Farmed Animals (Amendment) Order 2003 approved ...... 517 Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 —Sea-Fisheries (Experimental Area) (Amendment) Bye-laws 2003 approved ...... 517 Social Security Act 2000 —Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Order 2003 approved...... 518 Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 25) Order 2003 approved ...... 518 Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2003 approved ...... 518 National Health Service Act 2001 —Medical Act 1985 (Amendment) Order 2003 approved ...... 521 Licensing Act 1995 —Drinking in Public Places (Designated Places) (Malew) (No. 2) Order 2003 approved ...... 522

Procedural ...... 523

Building Regulations 2003 approved ...... 523 Communications Act 2003 (an Act of Parliament) —Extension to Isle of Man —Motion carried ...... 524

Procedural ...... 525

War Pensions Committee —T wo members appointed ...... 526 Tynwald Hill —W orld Heritage Site —Motion carried ...... 527 Select Committee on the Petition for Redress of Grievance of Leslie Cook and Winifred Cook —Powers granted to take written and oral evidence ...... 531 Manx Electricity Authority —Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried ...... 531 Design Study of East Quay, Peel —Motion carried ...... 540

Supplementary Orders 1 Business to be considered under Standing Order 2.2 (6) —Motion carried ...... 543 Registration of Electors Act 1984 —Registration of Electors Regulations 2003 —Motion lost ...... 543 Jury Act 1980 —Lists of Jurors Regulations 2003 —Motion withdrawn ...... 545

Supplementary Orders 2 Business to be considered under Standing Order 2.2 (6) —Motion carried ...... 545 Papers laid before the Court ...... 545 Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 — Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) (No. 2) Regulatory Code 2003 approved...... 545 Statement by the Minister for the Treasury ...... 546

Procedural ...... 547

House of Keys ...... 547 Tribute TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 443 T121

Hon. Members, I ask you to stand for a few moments in Tynwald recognition of Jack Nivison.

The Court met at 10.30 a.m. Members stood in silence.

PRAYERS The President: Thank you, Hon. Members. The Chaplain of the

[MR PRESIDENT in the Chair] Bill for Signature The President: Hon. Members, we have one Bill for signature, the Companies, etc. (Amendment) Bill 2003. It TRIBUTE TO was not returned from the Lord Chancellor’s Office in time JOHN ALLEN COWELL KENNEDY NIVISON, to be included on the Order Paper, but Standing Order 2.2(4)(b) allows me, provided that you are content, to bring CBE, JP it before you. I take it, Hon. Members, that you are content that we The President: Hon. Members, it was with sadness last deal with that matter and, if you are agreeable, we will week that we learned of the death of our former colleague, continue with our business whilst it is being signed. Jack Nivison, CBE, JP. Jack Nivison will be remembered in Tynwald for his Several Members: Agreed. long, dedicated service. He was first elected as an MHK for Middle in 1948 and became a Member of the Legislative The President: Thank you, Hon. Members. Council in 1962. He continued as a Member of the Council until his retirement in 1988, having completed 40 years of service. It is of particular note that he was elected to be the first Papers laid before the Court ever Chairman of the Legislative Council between 1980 and 1988. He will, no doubt, be held in the highest regard The President: I call upon the Clerk to lay papers. for his time as Chairman of the Board of Social Security, a post which he held between 1951 and 1976. In that role, he The Clerk: Mr President, I lay before the Court the was instrumental in carrying forward the National Insurance regulations, byelaws and Orders at item 1 of the Order Paper, Reciprocal Agreement, that has served this Island’s needs except for the Financial Supervision Commission so well, and in achieving an increase for those on (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code 2003, which is not laid, supplementary benefit, over and above the level which was and the two regulations at item 2 of the First Supplementary then paid throughout the UK. Order Paper, the Registration of Electors Regulations 2003 He also served on many other Boards, often, Hon. and Lists of Jurors Regulations 2003, and, on the Second Members, for extended periods, such as the Airports Board, Supplementary Order Paper, the Financial Supervision for which he was a Member between 1976 and 1988 and Commission (Stockbrokers) (No. 2) Regulatory Code 2003: the Tourist Board, where he served between 1962 and 1984, where his enthusiasm and his flamboyancy was a huge asset. Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 - He played a full role as a Member of Tynwald, being Traffic Signs (Application) Regulations 2003 involved in numerous Tynwald committees during his time [SD˚No˚827/03] as a Member, and I can recall him holding his own in School Crossing Patrol Sign Regulations 2003 [SD No Tynwald debates on very many occasions. He was an 828/03] enthusiastic member and was, for some time, Chairman of the Isle of Man Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Betting Act 1970 - Association and was always very proud to fly the flag on Betting Duty (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) behalf of the Island, something he did at Commonwealth Regulations 2003 [SD˚No˚782/03] Parliamentary Association conferences in various parts of the world, including Canada and Mauritius. Customs and Excise Act 1993 - Jack Nivison was a man well recognised in the Customs and Excise (Community Instruments) community, as well as in Tynwald, and he was greatly (Application) Order˚2003 [SD No 783/03] involved in many aspects of our Island life. I can recall Jack as chairman of many a country eisteddfod, and his Animal Health Act 1996 - quick wit and repartee led to many an enjoyable evening. Animal Health (Slaughter and Compensation) He served as the for Onchan and his (Amendment) Order˚2003 [SD No 820/03] activities regarding the Onchan stadium were largely Animal Health (Revocations) Order 2003 [SD No 821/ instrumental in the successful summer events that were held 03] there. Animal Health (Notification and Slaughter) Order 2003 He was one of a small band of nationally recognised [SD˚No˚822/03] politicians and our deepest sympathy goes to his family at Welfare of Farmed Animals (Amendment) Order 2003 this particular time. [SD˚No˚823/03]

Tribute to John Allen Cowell Kennedy Nivison Bill for signature Papers laid before the Court 444 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers

Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 - Personal Statement by the Hon. P M Crowe MLC Sea-Fisheries (Experimental Area) (Amendment) Bye- Minister for Local Government and the Environment laws 2003 [SD˚No 838/03] The President: Standing Order 3.19, I call the Hon. Social Security Act 2000 - Member of Council, Mrs Crowe. Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Order 2003 [SD˚No˚834/03] Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 25) Order As the mover of a motion below that has been circulated 2003 [SD˚No˚835/03] to you, mentioned at the November 2003 sitting of the Court, Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 I give notice, under Standing Order 3.19, that, at the January (Application) (Amendment) Order 2003 [SD No 836/ 2004 sitting, I will again move that the Report of the 03] Department of Local Government and the Environment dated October 2003 on the implementation process National Health Service Act 2001 - regarding the charges for waste disposal be received. Medical Act 1985 (Amendment) Order 2003 [SD No Thank you, Mr President. 768/03]

Licensing Act 1995 - Drinking in Public Places (Designated Places) (Malew) (No. 2) Order˚2003 [SD No 818/03] Questions for Oral Answer Building Regulations 2003 - PRESIDENT Building Regulations 2003 [SD No 829/03]

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 Lost motions to receive reports Consequences Reports Government s fourth progress report on the Isle of Man 5 1. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr˚Gill) to ask Year Drug and Alcohol Strategies Mr˚President: Tynwald Standards and Members Interests Committee First Report 2003/2004 When a motion for a report to the Court to be received is lost, is the report then rejected? Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper. The President: Hon. Members, we now turn to our Question Paper and I call on the Hon. Member for Rushen, Building Control Act 1991 - Mr Gill. Building Control (Approved Documents) Order 2003 [SD No 830/03] Mr Gill: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. Road Traffic Act 1985 - Breath Tests (Specified Offences) Order 2003 The President: The short answer, Hon. Member, is [SD˚No˚832/03] ‘yes’, as it has certainly not been accepted. However, by way of fuller answer, I have been unable Highways Act 1986 - to find an example, other than the recent Waste Report last Highway Expenses (Rate of Interest) Order 2003 month, where any motion, down to be received, was lost. [SD˚No˚839/03] There are many examples, where motions for approval have been received by amendment and, in other cases, motions Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1981 - for receiving have been amended. Endangered Species (Import and Export) Order 2003 A motion may be formulated in such a way simply ‘to [SD No 826/03] test the water’, ‘for information’, or, maybe, because the report it refers to contains financial implications that the Appointed Day Orders Treasury had to give concurrence to. Wildlife Act 1990 (Appointed Day) Order 2003 [SD No In this regard, they would be similar to declaratory 824/03] resolutions. In other words, statements to which the House Wildlife Etc. (Amendment) Act 1994 (Appointed Day) Order concurs, or not, and, as such, the executive should have 2003 [SD˚No 825/03] regard to their significance for present or future policy that Litter (Amendment) Act 2003 (Appointed Day) Order 2003 they may place before the Court. [SD˚No˚852/03] The success or failure of the motion does not change the policy already adopted by the Court. That would have Reports to be taken at a subsequent sitting, perhaps even initiated General Report of the Standing Committee on Expenditure by the Department, whose responsibility it was, and, of and Public Accounts, Session 2002-2003 course, that proposal would be open to amendment. Report of the Chief Secretary on Complaints made against It would still be for Tynwald to reject or approve future Departments of Government and Statutory Boards for the resolutions relating to that policy if it so wished. year ended 31˚December˚2002. Hon. Member for Middle.

Papers laid before the Court Personal Statement by the Hon. P M Crowe MLC, Minister for Local Government and the Environment Lost motions to receive reports —Consequences Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 445 T121

Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. Do you think it would be appropriate that you should I just wondered if I may ask if you consider that Tynwald appoint a deputy to take over your responsibilities as is the highest Court in the land, and the fact that it chose Chief Minister when you are indisposed? not to receive the Department of Local Government and the Environment’s Report at the November sitting did not The President: Question 3. I call on the Hon. Member constitute a ‘failure’ by Tynwald to receive it, rather that for Glenfaba, Mr Anderson. Tynwald exercised its democratic right to reject it. Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to ask The President: You could very well say that, sir. the Question standing in my name.

The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply.

Tynwald Questions to Ministers The Chief Minister (Mr Corkill): Thank you, Requests for limit Mr President. I do not think it would be appropriate to appoint a deputy 2. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr˚Karran) to ask to take over all of my responsibilities when I am indisposed. Mr˚President: I do, as necessary, ask ministers to deputise for me, as appropriate, depending upon the individual occasions which (1) Have you received any approach from or on behalf I am unable to attend and I think this is sufficient to cover of the Chief Minister and/or the Council of Ministers to any minor indisposition. limit the number of Tynwald questions to any Minister; The Chief Minister is appointed from among the and, if so Members of Tynwald by the Governor, on the nomination (2) what was your response? of Tynwald under the provisions of paragraph 2 of the Council of Ministers Act 1990. The Act makes no mention The President: Question 2. Hon. Member for Onchan, of and no provision for a deputy. I consider it would be Mr Karran. presumptuous of me to appoint a deputy when the Act remains silent on that issue. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Question If this Hon. Court considers that a deputy is necessary, standing in my name. then I believe it will be necessary to reflect that opinion by amending the relevant statute. The President: The Hon. Member is aware, as I am, and, indeed, every Member of Tynwald, that the Chief The President: Hon. Member, Mr Anderson. Minister and the Council of Ministers have discussed the position regarding the number of Questions addressed to Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President and I thank the any Minister, and I have spoken with the Chief Minister in Chief Minister for his answer, but could he enlighten us this regard. and let us know who has the responsibilities and who he As I indicated in response to the Hon. Member for delegates his responsibilities to when he is off-Island? Onchan previously, I have limited the number of Questions to the Chief Minister at the start of our sitting, in order that The President: Chief Minister. all Ministers and Departments are subject to Members’ scrutiny on a regular basis. The Chief Minister: Certainly, Mr President, whilst I Hon. Member, Douglas East. am off-Island there are certain responsibilities which continue. A great number of the Chief Minister’s Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. responsibilities continue, whether I am off the Island or on May I ask you, sir, whether or not there have been any the Island. fresh discussions in respect of this issue, in extending the In relation to the meetings of Council of Ministers, which limitation to Ministers other than the Chief Minister? Have are normally on a Thursday morning, if I am absent for one fresh discussions taken place with you, sir? of those meetings, or for part of that meeting, then I will select someone to chair the rest of that meeting and that The President: No fresh discussions have taken place will depend upon the circumstances of what is being and I did indicate to the Hon. Court previously, in reply to discussed, so that I can be comfortable that, in fact, the the Hon. Member for Onchan, that I was concerned at the person who takes the chair for the rest of that meeting will number of Questions repetitively being answered by any be able to do so in an impartial manner. particular Minister. That I am aware of. The President: Hon. Member for Middle.

Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. CHIEF MINISTER It was just in relation to the meetings of the Council of Ministers, in the absence of the Chief Minister, and I wonder, Deputy Chief Minister perhaps, if the Chief Minister could further clarify, because, Appropriateness of appointment in appointing a deputy or in appointing somebody who would preside in his absence, it is empowering somebody 3. The Hon. Member for Glenfaba (Mr˚Anderson) to ask the with a casting vote and I would have thought he may have Chief Minister: looked to appointing somebody to preside in his absence of

Tynwald Questions to Ministers —Requests for limit Deputy Chief Minister —Appropriateness of appointment 446 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers some seniority, rather than a junior minister, if he could Tynwald would have to decide whether it regarded a outline that. deputy simply as a deputy, or, as is so often the case, that it is seen as a progressive step to becoming Chief Minister at The President: Chief Minister. some point. Tynwald would have to determine whether it was comfortable with setting up such a structure. The Chief Minister: Mr President, in terms of me being Can I say that the current legislation, I think, works as able to appoint, I think, in my opening answer, I made it well as one might expect it to. As I have already said, if I clear that the legislation does not commit me to do that, am absent from the Council of Ministers meetings for some and so I would not be presumptuous and let that happen. reason, then I do not have a problem appointing one of the In relation to seniority, Tynwald appoints me, I appoint ministers around the table to carry on chairing that meeting the ministers and, as far as I am concerned, in my thinking, and, to date, in the two years that I have been Chief Minister, we are all equals, effectively, and I relate to Members of each one of those ministers, when asked, has been pleased Tynwald in that discussion as well. to do that chairing.

Mr Quine: Some are more equal than others. The President: Hon. Member for Michael.

The Chief Minister: We have a situation where, subject Mr Cannan: Will the Chief Minister agree that, in by subject, and policy by policy, we discuss many things in respect of the answers given, it has occurred to most of us the Council of Ministers and if, for some reason, which is that he is now totally indispensable as Chief Minister, and not that often, I may be absent on a Thursday, if Government with nobody anywhere in this Hon. Court capable of business takes me away, I will choose a minister whom I carrying out his duties? think is independent of the debate that is on the agenda. That is my responsibility, I believe, to make sure that The President: Chief Minister. (Laughter) the meetings progress in a proper fashion. The Chief Minister: Well, it is a great shame that the The President: Hon. Member for Peel. Member for Michael was not listening to what I said earlier. (Laughter and interjections) Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Could I ask the Chief Minister who he considers is the Mr Cannan: I was, I was. Government lead in Tynwald when the Chief Minister is not in Tynwald Court, as happened at the last sitting? The Chief Minister: I would argue that no-one in this Hon. Court is indispensable, no less myself, and if I was to The President: Chief Minister. become permanently indisposed – which some Hon. Members may be wishing for this morning – (Laughter and Mr Cannan: You and I, Edgar. interjections) then Tynwald would have a job to actually make sure that they replace me with someone amongst our The Chief Minister: Mr President, when I am not in ranks, and that is the democratic process. Tynwald Court, then I would expect, under the rules of collective responsibility, for all ministers to, in fact, be Mr Cannan: Edgar is available. responsible to those rules, in relation to the issue being discussed. The Chief Minister: One does not need to have a deputy There are, obviously, exemptions with regard to in place for that process to happen. collective responsibility; individual ministers have the If I could become more permanently indisposed than ability to speak on constituency matters, or matters of some might consider, Tynwald would have to be recalled conscience, or issues of policy that were predetermined or sit, in order to choose a new Chief Minister. And that is before they became a minister. the system we have and that is the system that seems to With those exemptions in place, I expect the whole of work. (Interjections) the Council of Ministers to take a lead. The President: A final supplementary, Hon. Member, The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Delaney. Mr Anderson.

Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. Chief Minister, this question must have been debated Well, I am glad that the Chief Minister is in good health by your Government sometime through its term. Would you, at the moment. (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) (Interjections sir, welcome such an amendment to the legislation, to and laughter) However, does the Chief Minister not agree empower you to appoint a deputy? with me that we maintain that we are a mature jurisdiction The President: Chief Minister. in our own right and other such jurisdictions have such a person known and named, and should he not be looking to The Chief Minister: I think it is difficult, without this Hon. Court for some direction in this matter? looking at the whole legislation, for me to make a comment off the top of my head – The President: Chief Minister: Mr Delaney: You are the boss! The Chief Minister: Well, Mr President, if we look to the east, where, in fact, the Westminster situation produces The Chief Minister: – in relation to that. a cabinet government, it is only in relatively recent times

Deputy Chief Minister —Appropriateness of appointment Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 447 T121 that there has been a Deputy Prime Minister of the United towards my idea, but does he agree with me that, not only Kingdom, and, for many years, the cabinet system similar am I seeking a cost impact for legislation, but, in fact, in to our own, but obviously more complex, has worked very recent times, when we have seen complicated legislation well and there, too, the parliament has a duty to produce a implemented, such as the Corporate Service Providers Bill Prime Minister, if one becomes permanently indisposed. and the recent Tribunals Bill, that not only do we need to So, I understand what the hon. questioner is saying. His examine cost impacts, we need to examine the impacts onto interest is in the continuity of good government and I the staff and the organisations themselves in other ways, in appreciate his interest in that, but, as I have said, I appoint systems ways, and that this is a good way forward to bring deputies from time to time, and ‘deputies’ in inverted more positive legislation and make sure it is more workable commas to do particular functions. than the current system.

The President: Chief Minister. Government introduced legislation Regulatory impact assessment The Chief Minister: Yes, I thank the Hon. Member for this Question, because I think it is quite important. 4. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr˚Henderson) to We all know, as an Hon. Court, that, in fact, we have ask the Chief˚Minister: introduced a number of regulations over recent years and they do have an impact, either plus cost, or minus cost, Will your Government provide a regulatory impact depending on what they do. The Hon. Member is quite right assessment with each Government promoted item of to raise the issue that it has an impact on people, who have primary and secondary legislation introduced in the to carry out their job in the light of those regulations, and Legislature? there is a cost to that as well, because they may well need extra training and new skills in order to carry out that duty, The President: Question 4, Hon. Member for Douglas but I would not want Hon. Members to think that North, Mr Henderson. Government has not, in the past, been interested in costs, because, certainly, throughout the administrations I have Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee been involved in, increasingly, I think, when new legislation shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. comes forward, before it gets to green Bill form, there is a lot more examination these days as to what the costs of it The President: Chief Minister. are going to be on the Government side. Importantly, we need to look at what regulatory impact, The Chief Minister (Mr Corkill): Mr President, the as a Member describes it, is actually doing to our private suggestion by the Hon. Member is one which I would sector, because they, too, have the same problems of having support, but I do believe we have to look at it as part of a to retrain and reskill people in the workplace to take account much bigger picture, as, indeed, was suggested in the draft of that regulation, and it may be that we ought to do a bit economic strategy received by this Hon. Court in October more of the training in advance of the regulations coming of this year. in. That is an assessment that is worth doing and, hopefully, Arising out of the economic strategy debate, a number work will start in the new year. of working groups are being formed and will commence work early in the new year to drive forward the various The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, strategic proposals. This work will look at the introduction remember it is a supplementary question. We are not going of formal cost-benefit appraisals of planned legislation, into a debate. having regard to practice in other jurisdictions. In fact, Mr President, it has always been the practice Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. that the costs which new legislation would put on I would simply, in my final supplementary, ask the Ard- Government be qualified. This proposal requires the same shirveishagh if he would give an undertaking to report back assessment to be made of private sector costs. Once this to this Hon. Court as and when they have done their work has been completed, we shall be much better informed preliminary assessments, in what he has just agreed to do, as to how to take the Hon. Member’s suggestion forward in and let this Hon. Court know the progress of the impact the most effective way possible. assessment? However, we should have realistic expectations of the value of such appraisals. It is rarely a straightforward task The President: Chief Minister. to precisely cost a benefit or an action, particularly in advance of its impact. The further examination of the The Chief Minister: Well, certainly, these working proposal, which I do support, will provide an assessment groups are under the auspices of the Treasury, Mr President, of the particulars and value of such exercises becoming a and I am sure the Hon. Treasury Minister has listened to formal part of our procedures. the hon. questioner’s comments. The timescale, in terms of these working groups The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member Douglas reporting back to Treasury, will be variable, but, certainly, North. I will discuss with the Treasury Minister how we can bring that information back to Hon. Members in the best way, Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. updating them on the working group’s aspects on this I thank the Chief Minister for his supportive comments assessment.

Deputy Chief Minister —Appropriateness of appointment Government introduced legislation —Regulatory impact assessment 448 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers

Island’s public and private sector ‘staff pool’ The Chief Minister: As I have said in my opening Current standards by comparison with off-Island pool answer, Mr President, I am confident that, within our pool on the Island, we have a great deal of expertise right across 5. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr˚Henderson) to the board. ask the Chief˚Minister: Having said that, I think it is important, when promotions are in train, that we benchmark against what is a much larger Do you consider the current “staff pool” in both the pool of off-Island resources, because I think we owe it to public and private sector to be of a lower standard to the people of the Isle of Man to make sure that our public draw from than off-Island applications, especially for services are of the highest standard that we can engender. promotions? So, I have a great deal of admiration for those who work themselves up through the public service and work hard The President: Question 5, Hon. Member for Douglas and get promoted as a result of that and I am heartened in North, Mr Henderson. finding the information for this answer that, in fact, the majority of these promotions come from within the Island, Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee rather than coming in from outside. shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Delaney. The President: Chief Minister. Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. The Chief Minister (Mr Corkill): Mr President, with The Chief Minister, given the last five lines of what his all due respect to the hon. questioner, I am at a loss, really, answer was – that he is heartened that we have a majority to see how I can actually answer the Question in an informed of people coming from the local pool of employment – that manner. if the policy that he is pursuing through his Department To do so I would need to have much greater detailed continues, that will not be the case in the future. knowledge of the staff pool, both on and off the Island. That is my first supplementary, and the second one is: What I would say, however, is that, clearly, the off-Island where there is only one employer in the Isle of Man, the staff pool is much larger than the on-Island staff pool and, private sector, surely the actual excellent staff that we have therefore, I think it right and proper that we should use that in the Isle of Man will be disheartened when their promotion pool to benchmark against internal applicants. This can at prospects are dampened by an ever-increasing number of least give an indication of how we are faring as an Island, people being placed above them in the promotion pool in terms of the expertise that is available to us as a available, particularly in that part of this Question dealing community. with the public sector. I do, however, hold the firm view that the Island does Thirdly, can you clearly state, Chief Minister, that it is benefit from a pool of well-qualified and appropriately the policy of your administration that Manx people will be skilled staff across all sectors and, I know, Government, as given more than an equal chance when applying for jobs, the largest employer of around 8,500 staff, has a highly where they have the same qualifications for that job as committed and dedicated workforce. However, that people from off the Island. workforce is very diverse in its makeup and the reality is that, for some jobs, Government is the only employer. The President: Chief Minister. I think, as a Government, we should seek to benefit from the knowledge and expertise offered to us, wherever it may The Chief Minister: Well, I would like the hon. arise, so long as we comply with the relevant legislation. questioner to, first of all, define what he means by ‘Manx Government’s recruitment policy is to attract the best candidates for the job. Sometimes this means advertising people’. I know what he means emotionally, but, obviously, jobs more widely to ensure an element of choice. This if we are talking about the employment legislation, it talks approach does not preclude consideration of any internal about Isle of Man workers and there is a definition – applicants who might be seeking a promotion. Those applicants will be treated in the same way as others, so that Mr Delaney: I will get to that later in the question, Chief Government can demonstrate equality of opportunity and Minister. it is a fact that, within the Civil Service, the percentage of internal appointments remains greater than those from The Chief Minister: – of what an Isle of Man worker outside of the organisation. is and that is not necessarily the same thing as what I would feel is Manx. There are two definitions being put – The President: Hon. Member, Douglas North. Mr Delaney: Not for me, there isn’t. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Does the Chief Minister agree with me, or will he lend The Chief Minister: – into the questioning here, his support, and confirm that his cabinet are of the view Mr President, and I think it is important that we understand that the staff pool in the Isle of Man is hard working and the difference. capable of high achievements and capable of in-service I, as Chief Minister, want to make sure that, within this training, to actually get to be those achievers and can Island, everybody who seeks promotion, who is properly perform as well, if not better, than off-Island applicants and qualified, who applies for a job, who interviews well for a any other countries, Eaghtyrane. job, who has the experience and the background, gets the right jobs. The President: Chief Minister. I am sure all of us in this Hon. Court want that to happen,

Island s public and private sector staff pool —Current standards by comparison with off-Island pool Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 449 T121 but I think it would be foolish if we thought that, in every Mr Delaney: I feel, Mr President, that the Chief Minister situation the has to deal with, that is getting the benefit of the Chair – we 100 per cent have that resource from within the Island. There are times when we need people from outside of The President: Hon. Member, we are getting into the this Island to help us provide the public services that we danger of debating the Control of Employment legislation – are all due and that happens from time to time. But, as I have said in my opening answer, within Mr Delaney: He raised it, not me, sir. Government employment, the vast majority of people who are promoted come from within the existing system. The President: – which is not there. Mr Delaney: A point of explanation, Mr President.

The President: Mr Delaney. TREASURY Mr Delaney: A supplementary on a point of explanation. ‘Manx’ to me – and the question I have, the supplementary Repairs and maintenance of private dwellings – is anyone who resides in this Island (Mr Corkill: Right.) Continuance of 5% VAT rate and I hope it is to everybody else. Mr President, can I further ask the Member and the Chief 6. The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the Minister of this Court and remind him he has not answered Minister for the Treasury: the questions I specifically asked – could I ask for an answer to those three questions I asked? Can you advise upon the current situation as to whether or not the 5% VAT rate will continue to apply from 1st The President: The Hon. Member has answered the January 2004, in respect of repairs and maintenance of question and he is perfectly entitled to answer the question private dwellings? as he sees fit. The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle. Mr Delaney: That is what the Standing Order says. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to The President: Do you wish to add, Chief Minister? ask the Question standing in my name.

The Chief Minister: Well, I just wish to point out, Mr The President: Minister for the Treasury. President, that the Hon. Member has come back and given his definition of what ‘Manx’ means, and I am comfortable The Minister for Treasury (Mr Bell): Mr President, with that. Manx people, i.e. someone who wishes to live perhaps, first of all, I might refer the Hon. Member to the and reside on the Isle of Man as a permanent way of life – answers that I gave to the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton, on 7th May 2002 in the House of Keys and Mr Houghton: After a few years. on 15th October 2002 in this Hon. Chamber, and also to the recent Treasury press release and accompanying statement The Chief Minister: – and that is wonderful. Can I point on this matter, which were both published on 2nd December out to the Hon. Member, that the Employment Act talks this year. about – To reiterate, though, it has always been Treasury policy to seek to extend the 5 per cent VAT rate on household Mr Delaney: We are not talking about the Employment buildings and improvements. Act, Mr President. Members will, no doubt, remember that, by adopting the rate, the Island was taking part in an experiment which The President: Can the Chief Minister . . . was to determine the effect that a reduced rate of VAT might The Chief Minister: – talks about the Isle of Man . . . have on the shadow economy and levels of unemployment. the employment legislation defines what an Isle of Man The concession itself was achieved by way of special worker is, as defined by the Act and certainly one needs a derogation, obtained by the United Kingdom under a permit until one has resided within the Island for five years. European Council decision of 28th February 2000, and was Therefore, the Hon. Member’s question, ‘all people living due to expire in December 2002. on the Island’, would actually dilute the work permit The scheme was then further extended by a year while legislation that we already have in place, (Mr Houghton: the European Commission deliberated on the findings of Hear, hear.) because there are a number of people living on the report submitted by those taking part. It is because of this Island who have permits, who have not resided here the structure of our agreements with the United Kingdom for the five years yet. and the relationship between the United Kingdom and Europe that we have been able to take part in the reduced The President: Question 6. Hon. Member for Middle. rate exercise. It is not possible for the Island to make a unilateral decision to extend this concession, therefore. Mr Delaney: Sorry, Mr President, may I ask a The European Council of Ministers – that is, Economic supplementary? and Financial Affairs (ECOFIN) – and the European Commission have entered into discussions regarding The President: No, sir, we are in danger of getting into reduced rates generally, and, specifically, whether or not a debate – those relating to residential property should be continued

Island s public and private sector staff pool — Current standards by comparison with off-Island pool Repairs and maintenance of private dwellings —Continuance of 5% VAT rate 450 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers and/or form part of permanent legislation. No firm Question because we are ourselves very concerned about conclusions were reached at ECOFIN’s meeting on 24th to the impact this uncertainty is having both on the building 25th November this year, with the matter being held over. industry and, indeed, on private individuals who wish to The effect of there being no firm decision as to whether or carry out works in the near future. not the reduced rate should or should not continue has been We believe this reduced rate, Mr President, has been to generate a substantial degree of uncertainty for both very beneficial to all concerned on the Island. The building builders and householders alike. industry has, I think, experienced a substantial boost from Mr President, as I have already said, the Treasury this concession, and, obviously, the general public has continued to support the reduced rate and wish to see it received far more competitive prices for the work that they continue. Whilst the ultimate decision on this matter has to wish to carry out and, therefore, it is very much in my mind be determined in Europe, everything that can be done to as Treasury Minister, but also in Treasury’s overall policy bring clarity to the situation is being done. that this scheme continue for as long as we can possibly In the meantime, my Customs and Excise Division have make it. agreed with their UK counterparts that it is likely that the I do accept, Mr President, the point that the Hon. reduced rate can continue until the situation is clarified in Member makes that this uncertainty is unsatisfactory. We Europe. (Two Members: Hear, hear.) However, the believe it is extremely unfortunate that the European Union European timetable for resolving this issue is unclear and it has not been able to get its act together in time to give the is likely that it may be closer to the end of December before public, not just here, but elsewhere where this concession any confirmation can be given. works, longer notice of what the ultimate outcome might I accept that this situation is undesirable, but we believe be. that the procedures being adopted are more likely to yield But, as ever with the European Union, Mr President, the desired positive outcome. this is not a straightforward issue. There are a number of When a final decision is taken by the European Union other VAT issues under negotiation with the European on this matter, whether that is to maintain the existing Commission at the moment and VAT on buildings or reduced rate of 5 per cent, or revert to the full standard rate building repairs is just but one of a number of areas which of 17.5 per cent, then it will be widely publicised by Customs are being ‘bartered’ – I think is probably the best way to and Excise Division as soon as that information is available. describe it – within the European Union and we really find Guidance on how to proceed, should the rate revert to the ourselves, Mr President, in this unfortunate situation. full standard rate, will be issued in the form of transitional Nevertheless, a situation which is beyond our control at arrangements and these will be published in both electronic the moment and we have to wait for the outcome of the and paper formats. European Union negotiations. In the meantime, however, when customers wish to ensure that qualifying work continues to attract the 5 per cent, traders may offer to issue an invoice and take a deposit on such work, which should cover at least their VAT liability. LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THE Provided that the VAT is properly brought to account on ENVIRONMENT the full value of the job before 31st December then customers can still benefit from the scheme. Fly-tipping It is imperative that the issuing of the invoice in the Prosecutions and procedures sum of the whole job and/or the receipt of the cash must be concluded by 31st December, though, for this condition to 7. The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the remain properly within the existing tax point rules. Any Minister for Local Government and the Environment: invoices raised after the cessation of the scheme will attract full standard rate of tax. In relation to the unacceptable increase in ‘fly tipping’, will you provide details of the number of prosecutions The President: Hon. Member for Middle. over the last five years, and indicate if your Department considers the current measures and procedures to be Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. satisfactory, or should they be reviewed to make them I wonder if I may just ask the Treasury Minister: is he more effective and punitive? actually aware that I received his very helpful paper giving an update on the situation, after I had tabled my Question The President: Hon. Member for Middle. on today’s Question Paper, but may I ask him also if he accepts that this uncertainty that prevails makes it a great Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to worry for consumers and poses great difficulties to traders ask the Question standing in my name. when attempting to cope with this very unsatisfactory situation? The President: This time I call the Minister for Local Government and the Environment. The President: Treasury Minister, Hon. Member Mr Bell. The Minister for Local Government and the Environment (Mrs Crowe): Thank you, Mr President. The Minister: Mr President, I am not aware when the Before I answer the Hon. Member’s specific Question, Hon. Member received his statement that was put out by I would take issue with him over his assertion that there has Treasury. been an unacceptable increase in fly-tipping. All fly-tipping The Treasury statement was put out independent of his is unacceptable, as I have said in this Hon. Court many times.

Repairs and maintenance of private dwellings — Continuance of 5%VA T rate Fly-tipping —Prosecutions and procedures Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 451 T121

However, if he has any evidence to support his assertion, I Fly-tipping has always taken place on the Isle of Man. hope he will provide it to the Department for examination. We have always had problems with fly-tipping and we are What I can say is that it is hardly surprising that more doing our best to make sure we can prosecute an offender, incidents are being reported when the issue is being given because I, like, I am sure, the rest of the Hon. Members in such a higher profile in the media. In fact, one local authority this Court, feel that that would be the way forward to ensure is advertising several times a day on the radio, at ratepayers’ that this irresponsible habit is stopped. expense, for incidents to be reported to them. (A Member: Braddan.) A Member: Hear, hear. In relation to the Hon. Member’s request for details of prosecutions for fly-tipping over the past five years, as I The President: Now, Hon. Members, let us not get into have stated before, there have been none, although it is a waste debate. Hon. Member, Mr Singer. possible that a local authority may have prosecuted for the offence of littering under the Litter Act. The current Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. measures and procedures are contained within the provisions Could I ask the Hon. Minister what current measures of the Public Health Act 1990. This provides, in section 57, she is taking so as to minimise fly-tipping in the north by for an offence of depositing or knowingly depositing ensuring that, when the Ballacallow site at Bride closes controlled waste on land, unless the land on which the waste shortly, there will be an alternative civic amenity site for is deposited is occupied by the holder of a waste disposal use by the people of the north, and is the minister progressing licence. the suitable option offered by Mr Nicholson of Bride, which It has been difficult to obtain robust evidence to institute I believe is the most favoured site by most northern proceedings against either the perpetrator of fly-tipping or authorities and the people living in the area? the owner of the land. However, I do feel that Hon. Members will support me The President: Hon. Minister. in saying that, where clear evidence can be found to identify the culprit, the Department will not hesitate to prosecute The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I hope to be and seek the support of the courts in dealing effectively able to make the announcement regarding the new civic with such irresponsible behaviour. The Department has amenity site in the north of the Island within the next two taken steps to remove waste and deal with the consequences weeks. of deposition. The existing provisions in the current legislation are The President: Mr Duggan, Hon. Member for Douglas probably sufficiently robust, provided the evidence can be South. collected. An offence triable in a summary court has a maximum penalty of six months in prison or a £5,000 fine Mr Duggan: Thank you, Mr President. or both, and on information two years in prison or a fine or Where the Minister says there is no fly-tipping, would both. The Department does believe that this is sufficiently she not agree that, in a newspaper article recently, Mr Keith punitive. Shimmin has reported, on two occasions, old fridges and Thank you, Mr President. rubbish dumped over the Marine Drive – that is evidence in itself . . . The President: Hon. Member for Middle. Mr Lowey: They have been dumped on the Marine Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. Drive for years. The Minister, in her reply, alluded to the fact that there The President: Minister. did not appear to be an unacceptable increase. I wonder, is she not aware of information reaching her The Minister: Mr President, I can remember incidents own Department from the local authority that, as she alluded of fly-tipping on Marine Drive going back into history. to, in fact, is Braddan Parish Commissioners and I have this morning on my own computer found that there have Mr Duggan: More now, though. been eight new instances of fly-tipping reported to her Department only this morning. Could I ask her if she is Mr Gelling: There is more now. aware, perhaps, over the last couple of months as to how many e-mails she is receiving of these reported cases of The Minister: I do not deny that there is fly-tipping. fly-tipping and could she not redouble her efforts to (A All the articles that were tipped - we examined all the reports Member: Hear, hear.) make herself aware of what is that the Hon. Member mentioned – Mr Shimmin’s report; happening, because everybody else around the Island (A we went out, with environmental officers - all of that rubbish Member: Hear, hear.) really truly believes that there is a could have been deposited in the local civic amenity site terrific increase in fly-tipping going on? with no charge. It was household material: there was a cot, a baby’s high chair, some sports bags. That has no effect on The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Crowe. charging. No charges would have been made for the deposition of any of that waste in a civic amenity site. The Minister: As the Hon. Member has said, we have So, whilst I agree that there are irresponsible people, Island-wide media coverage of a reporting system put in there have always been irresponsible people. The Marine place by Braddan Commissioners and we have our own Drive is a classic example of where people think they can reporting system on our own website in the Department, throw something off the edge of a cliff, and I am afraid that where there have been eight cases notified. has happened in history.

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The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. will go out, I hope, from this Court today, that we will not tolerate indiscriminate burning of rubbish. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Minister indicate – in reply to a question put to The President: Mrs Craine. her earlier, she spoke about licensed sites for the tipping of rubbish – how is her Department going to monitor and Mrs Craine: Thank you, Mr President. control the licensed sites, bearing in mind that there are The Minister has confirmed that the civic amenity sites personnel difficulties within Environmental Health in her are free to the general public. Will the Minister accept that Department? In fact, the Department has just lost one very the police are taking action against perpetrators of fly- good environmental health inspector. How is the Department tipping, in addition to the Department taking action, and, in going to monitor those that are licensed? order to combat the ignorance of those people who continue And further, where, Minister, is the environmental to fly-tip, that the Department are about to run a media protection strategy that was promised this Hon. Court over campaign to relieve that ignorance? a year ago? We were told that it would be forthcoming, and would cover all of these issues and what the Department The President: Minister. proposed to do in terms of its strategy. Further, Minister, over a year ago, you said, when The Minister: That is, indeed, correct. Now we have introducing the idea of charging for the disposal of refuse the two recycling officers in place, we are hoping to run a onto domestic ratepayers and businesses, the commercial media campaign, not only through schools, through personal sector, that there was no such thing as fly-tipping, that people visits, but through the media in general – making sure that were responsible and they did not fly-tip. Why is it, Minister, everyone knows the correct route for the disposal of any of that you change your policy day to day, on the hoof? their waste, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Crowe. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.

The Minister: I have never, ever stated that there is no Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. fly-tipping. I have always stated that fly-tipping has always Could the Minister confirm that, until recently, when been going on on the Island and it is totally irresponsible this subject has received the high profile it has received, for people to fly-tip. I can point out newspaper articles on that, prior to any charging, fly-tipping has always been a fly-tipping, perhaps 15 or 20 years ago, so it is nothing new sad factor and that it is the high profile that has actually on the Isle of Man. illustrated the actual problem that has been happening all What I am saying is that a lot of the rubbish that is tipped along? does not attract charges, so it is irresponsibility and nothing to do with the imposition of charges for waste. A Member: Absolutely. The Hon. Member asked how we were going to manage the control of our licensed sites. Although we have lost a The President: It is the same question we had before. very valuable member of our environmental protection Minister. group, we have numerous other environmental health officers. They all specialise in different areas, but there is The Minister: Well, yes, I am delighted to confirm that, nothing to stop them enforcing the law in all areas to do because it is the case. We have always dealt with cases of with environmental health and protection. fly-tipping and found it quite difficult on occasion to get the robust evidence we need for a prosecution, but we are The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cretney. making every effort that we can to bring forward a prosecution, and I do believe, if we can do such a thing, the Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. lesson will go out. So we are, in the Department, making Could I ask the Minister if she shares the concerns of a every effort we can do deal with this. recent letter writer to Hon. Members in relation to indiscriminate burning of materials? This is something Mr Corkill: Hear, hear. Well done. which used to go on 15 or 20 years ago in big order and I do hope that the environmental health officers have heard about The President: Mr Anderson. them and will be able to quash those activities. Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Lowey: Hear, hear. Would the Minister finally acknowledge that there is an increase in fly-tipping and, if not, would she accompany The President: Minister. me on a walk around my constituency in the near future? (Interjections) The Minister: Yes, indeed, Mr President. We have had recently three reports on the burning of The President: Minister. rubbish, namely plastic. As we all know, waste is charged for by weight, so, in my opinion, it is totally inexcusable The Minister: I am always amazed at the number of for people to burn waste plastic material. Members that offer to take me for a walk – (Laughter and We are at the present time investigating two of those interjections) if it is not Mr Lowey, it is Mr Anderson, and, cases, and environmental health officers are dealing with whilst not agreeing to the walk, not actually knowing the that matter at this time and it is something . . . The word area of the constituency, I would most gladly drive around

Fly-tipping — Prosecutions and procedures Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 453 T121 with him to check any incidents of fly-tipping in his area. but I emphasise that the trial has not been completed and I do hope he is reporting them. Certainly, I do not think we will not know the outcome until spring, 2004. The we have had a report in the Department, but I do not know. Technetium discharge from Sellafield is unacceptable to the If that has been the case, fine, but the place to report them people of the Isle of Man and, naturally, we hope the trial is to Environmental Health. We have the website available. will be successful and the new technology employed. Anything can be reported on the website, or reported to me The Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne, will recall that, in person, or by letter to Environmental Health, who, with during our visit to Sellafield in August this year, we held the help of the police, are dealing with this issue. discussions with Dr Rex Strong, BNFL’s Head of Environmental Management, who gave us his personal assurance that he would keep the Isle of Man Government fully informed of the progress of the trial. I can confirm British Nuclear Fuels Limited that BNFL have kept our officials fully informed of the Technetium 99 removal trial results progress of the trial, and we have been told that it is progressing well. In addition, I can inform members that a 8. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gawne) to ask the further report was presented to our representative at the Minister for Local Government and the Environment: Sellafield Liaison Committee on Thursday last week. My understanding of the regulatory position for During a recent visit arranged by your Department for assessing the outcome of the trial is that there will be several Members of Tynwald to Sellafield in August, BNFL documents published or issued by BNFL and the nuclear explained that a trial was to take place in October of a regulators, principally the UK Environment Agency and process which BNFL has developed to remove NIREX, who are responsible for nuclear waste disposal on Technetium 99 from water prior to its discharge into the land. These documents will not compromise either Irish Sea: can you confirm Ð commercial confidentiality or national security matters and (1) whether such a trial has now taken place; they will be publicly available. We have also been told by (2) whether you or your Department have requested that BNFL that they will make available to the Isle of Man BNFL inform you of the results as soon as they are Government all their documentation concerning the trial. available; and The final decision to adopt the new process rests with (3) whether you will undertake to obtain a copy of the the nuclear regulators and not BNFL. The UK Environment trial results and circulate these results to Tynwald Agency must sanction the environmental consequences of Members as soon as they are available? the new treatment method and, likewise, NIREX must agree to the suitability of the Technetium 99 in cement blocks for The President: I call on the Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. on-land disposal. At this stage we are not certain exactly how much Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta me shirrey documentation there will be, but I can assure you it will be kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. substantial. However, I will ensure that all the documentation that is made available in the Department will, The President: I call on the Minister for Local as soon as we receive it, be provided to Members by way of Government and the Environment. a briefing note, outlining all the consequences of the nuclear regulators’ final decision. The Minister for Local Government and the Thank you, Mr President. Environment (Mrs Crowe): Thank you, Mr President. The UK Government has agreed to address the The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne. continuing problem of the levels of Technetium 99 discharges to the Irish Sea. BNFL is presently carrying out Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Can the Minister a trial into a new method for the removal of Technetium 99 shed some light as to why the test results, or the length of from stored liquid radioactive wastes, which are presently the test, seems to be delayed to March 2004? I think initially being discharged to the Irish Sea, and the intention is to it was supposed to have been January 2004 that the results remove Technetium 99 from this liquid waste by converting were due. it into a safer solid form suitable for storage on land. And can she also confirm that it remains the commitment If the trial proves successful on a plant scale level, the of both Tynwald Court and the Isle of Man Government to new treatment process will be used to clean up the liquid seek the closure of Sellafield? radioactive waste presently held in old storage tanks on the Sellafield site. The UK nuclear regulators have insisted that Mr Cretney: Hear, hear. these old tanks must be emptied, for safety reasons, by the end of 2006. The President: Minister. Of course, we all hope the new treatment process will allow these tanks to be emptied with the minimal pollution The Minister: Yes, indeed. of the Irish Sea. The plant scale trial is expected to run until In answer to the first part of the question, I do believe March, 2004. Only then, when BNFL and the nuclear when we were both visiting BNFL and seeing all that we regulators have reviewed the results of the trial, will a wished to see on that site. We were told, at that time, that decision be taken to use the new technology to significantly the trials were due to start in October and it was my reduce the quantity of Technetium 99 discharged to the Irish understanding that it would be a six month trial, at least, Sea. and so I would have thought that early spring would have Early indications are that the trial is progressing well, been more likely for the results to be shown. So, as I say, as

Fly-tipping — Prosecutions and procedures British Nuclear Fuels Limited —T echnetium 99 removal trial results 454 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers soon as we have them, yes, indeed. the intermediate and the advanced course in food hygiene. And I have pleasure in confirming the fact that the Isle So far this year we have successfully trained over 100 of Man Government will seek the earliest closure of persons at foundation level. We are, of course, keeping Sellafield. ongoing training and our Environmental Health Officers pay particular regard to food establishments, as we know by recent prosecutions.

Food handling legislation The President: Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Application to persons working in food industry Shimmin.

9. The Hon. Member for Peel (Mrs Hannan) to ask the Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. Minister for Local Government and the Environment: Could the Minister outline whether there is a register of all serving establishments to help with inspections and (1) Does your Department have legislation to insist that ensure compliance? If there is a register, or intention to be persons working in food preparation and serving one, is this available to the public, and most importantly, establishments receive food handling education prior to does it cover temporary establishments, where many of the commencing work; and, if not difficulties of enforcement actually exist? (2) when do you plan to introduce such legislation? The President: Minister. The President: Hon. Member for Peel. The Minister: I am afraid that I do not have that Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg leave to ask the particular answer in my hand at the present time, Mr Question standing in my name. President. I do not believe that there is a register as such. What I would say is that we hold our own computerised The President: Again the reply is in the hands of the details of all food-serving establishments and, of course, Minister for Local Government and the Environment. that is based on risk assessment of each particular establishment. The Minister for Local Government and the Moving on to risk assessment of mobile or temporary Environment (Mrs Crowe): Thank you, Mr President. establishments, we do take a great deal of care, the moment With regard to part (1) of the Hon. Member’s Question, that these establishments appear on the horizon, to ensure the Department does not have legislation to insist that that they are complying with all our regulations. persons working in food preparation and serving establishments have to receive food handling education prior The President: Mrs Hannan, Hon. Member for Peel. to commencing work. With regard to part (2), the Department is currently Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. drafting new food hygiene regulations, to include a provision In the meantime, prior to getting this legislation, would that all food handlers shall be supervised and instructed and/ the Minister look at introducing a voluntary scheme, or trained in food hygiene matters commensurate with their whereby people operating establishments with food actually work activities, and the legislation is scheduled in the record that they have instructed people handling food on Department’s business plan for the coming year. the premises in food hygiene, before it actually becomes statutory responsibility to do so? The President: Hon. Member for Peel. The President: Minister. Mrs Hannan: Could I ask the Minister why it has taken so long to introduce legislation, when her Department The Minister: Yes, indeed, and I thought I had actually already inspects, licenses and also prosecutes food-handling made that clear. We do offer to each establishment food establishments, because people, I would say, are the biggest hygiene training for all their staff, and that is either prior to problem in these establishments. It is how food is handled the opening, or as they have just opened, whatever, and it is and how care is taken within these establishments that ongoing. actually causes most of the problems? Could I ask the New staff: it is recommended, as you say, on a voluntary Minister why it has taken so long to introduce legislation code that new staff members dealing in food hygiene do go such as this? through our training course.

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Mr President, I always find it frustrating Waste disposal charges report the length of time that legislation takes to progress, and I Tynwald’s ‘failure’ to receive fully understand the Hon. Member’s concerns; in fact, I do believe she asked a similar Question in the House some 10. The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the time ago. I do share the concerns of the Hon. Member for Minister for Local Government and Environment: Peel. What I would say is that my Department does organise With reference to the recent Report of your Department and train food handlers in food hygiene at three levels of on the Implementation of Charges for Waste Disposal, nationally recognised qualifications: the foundation course, which was the subject of a motion calling upon Tynwald

British Nuclear Fuels Limited —T echnetium 99 removal trial results Food handling legislation —Application to persons working in food industry Waste disposal charges report —T ynwald s failure to receive Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 455 T121

to receive it at its November sitting Ð She is implying that Tynwald failed and I ask her again: (1) do you accept that Tynwald is the highest Court in can she enlighten us as to how and why she believes that the land and the fact that it chose not to receive your Tynwald failed? It was her Department that actually failed, Department’s Report did not constitute a ‘failure’ by surely, not Tynwald. Tynwald to receive it, rather that Tynwald exercised its democratic right to reject it; and The President: Minister. (2) in your news release issued on 21st November 2003 concerning waste charges, you referred therein to the The Minister: The use of words, the semantics . . . I do Report and made reference to ‘Tynwald’s failure to agree with the Hon. Member, maybe, that there might have receive it did not affect the policy’, will you enlighten us been a better way of putting it – ‘the Department failed to as to how and why you believe that Tynwald ‘failed’? have the approval of Tynwald.’ It was not intended as a criticism of this Court – The Minister: Question 10, Hon. Member Mr Quayle. Mrs Hannan: But it was received as a criticism, Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Minister. ask the Question standing in my name. The Minister: – it was just a wording in a press release, The President: Minister for Local Government and the and I do apologise if anyone thought it was a criticism of Environment, Mrs Crowe. the Court. It was not intended to be so. But the fact was that there was a failure to support the The Minister for Local Government and the report that came forward – Environment (Mrs Crowe): Thank you, Mr President. With regard to part (1) of the Hon. Member’s Question, Mr Delaney: That is what it should have said. I have no hesitation in confirming that I have always regarded this Hon. Court as being the highest in the land, The Minister: – and, yes, I do believe that my Hon. and I readily acknowledge, as does my Department, that Colleague is correct. this Hon. Court is entitled to accept or reject any motion put down for debate. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. However, I think the criticism is of the November 2003 report that we brought forward. The report was purely a Mr Gill: Thank you, Mr President. progress report to this Hon. Court on how the Department Would the Minister agree with me that, when her had managed the actual procedures required for a properly colleague in Council, Mr Lowey, in his role as Chairman audited charging invoicing process to local authorities and designate of the Waste Management Board, in the recent to commercial producers. The report contained no interview on Manx Radio, when responding to the apparent recommendations. The Department, in fact, could have laid ‘failure’ of Tynwald to receive this report, the Chairman the report before the Court, but, in an effort to be as open designate showed an array of flick-flacks, weaving and and transparent as possible, we placed the progress report bobbing, and escape and evasion tactics that Olga Corbett, on the agenda. Mike Tyson (Interjection by Mr Delaney) and the SAS With regard to part (2) of the Question, the news released would be proud of? (Laughter) by my Department on 23rd November was intended simply to explain to the commercial sector that the report contained The President: Hon Members, we are in danger of no recommendations for approval by Tynwald and that the widening it out totally again. Minister to reply. non-acceptance of the progress report on how our charging and invoicing systems have been implemented had no The Minister: I would like to remind the Hon. Member impact on the charging policy that had been approved by for Rushen, Mr Gill, that the Hon. Member of my this Hon. Court in June. Department, Mr Lowey, who has charge of the waste We issued the press release because there had been a management strategy, is most probably the most skilled Manx Radio report following the debate that had given an politician in this House (Interjections) – impression that needed to be corrected. I am surprised that anyone could have regarded that news Mr Delaney: At ducking and weaving? release as a criticism of this Hon. Court and it was certainly not meant to be so. The Minister: And he stated quite clearly (Mr Lowey: Absolutely.) exactly what the report on the Order Paper was The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. about. (A Member: Hear, hear.) There seemed to have been some misunderstanding of Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. what it was. It was purely a progress report on a charging I am disappointed, however, with the Minister’s reply, system that had been in place and had been implemented because (Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear.), quite clearly, in this and, indeed, it was the Hon. Member’s concerns and his press release – and, in fact, it is dated November 21st, not amendment at a previous sitting of the Hon. Court that asked November 23rd, as the Minister has indicated, unless she for us to report back on the way in which we had worked has issued another one that I am not aware of – but could I with local authorities and the commercial sector to ask her, perhaps, if she could make herself familiar with it implement our charging process. where she states there: So, whilst you may not have liked the way in which my Hon. Colleague answered the questions put to him, what he so Tynwald s failure to receive it did not affect the policy. said was perfectly correct.

Waste disposal charges report —T ynwald s failure to receive 456 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FORESTRY

Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Wildlife and Conservation Office Would the Minister agree that a number of Members Improvement of profile failed to support her Department because there were significant flaws in the report? And, bearing in mind that 11. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) she has now stated that the report will be coming back to to ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: Tynwald in January, can she confirm that she will endeavour to address some of the flaws highlighted in the debate? When is your Department going to give a higher profile/ priority to the Wildlife and Conservation Office and The President: Minister. separate it out from the Agriculture Section, making it an entity in its own right? The Minister: I would have pleasure in doing so, and I do intend offering to all Members of this Hon. Court the The President: Question 11, Hon. Member for Douglas opportunity to either visit the Department, to speak to Mr North, Mr Henderson. Lowey and myself in person or to hold another presentation, if there are areas of the report (Interjection by Mr Delaney) Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta me shirrey that are causing concern. kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Singer. The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Rimington, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry. Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister, in her first answer, said that the The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry Department had placed the report to be received before this (Mr Rimington): Mr President, the Agriculture and Wildlife Hon. Court because the Department wished to be open and Division of the Department is currently subject to a transparent, and she actually said: ‘We could have just laid management review to determine, amongst other things, the it before . . .’ Is the Minister here implying every other most appropriate management structure for the agriculture Department in future, who just lays a report before this Hon. and wildlife activities of the Department. Court, is not being open and transparent? With particular reference to wildlife, the remit is to review the management, structure and effectiveness of the The President: Minister to reply. wildlife and conservation section. The review is scheduled to be completed and the report submitted to the Department The Minister: Words are changing; I mean one has to by the middle of January 2004. The Department will then be careful – consider the report and publish the outcome.

Mr Singer: Your words. The President: Mr Henderson.

The Minister: – whether it starts at the beginning of a Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. sentence or the end! What I would say is, most certainly, it I am pleased to hear that the Department is conducting is open to every Department – when it is not required to a review into two such matters appertaining to the Wildlife have Tynwald approval for a particular item – to choose to and Conservation Office, but will the Shirveishagh confirm lay the item before the Court for someone to pick up at a for this Court that his Department will be supplying further sitting, or, indeed, to present it to the Court in information to that review and canvassing views of other whatever way they wish. That is open to every Department, folk into the Wildlife and Conservation Office? It is so I will leave it to whichever Department to chose important, and the fact that it should, in fact, be separated whichever way they want to forward any report back to the out and be its own individual section, either under the DAFF Court. remit, or under a section under its own remit.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian. The President: Minister.

Mrs Christian: Mr President, for the purposes of clarity, The Minister: Yes. Thank you, Mr President. would the Minister confirm that the proposal to bring the To the Hon. Member, I can confirm that we have report back for a vote at the next sitting of this Hon. Court discussed and the people that are undertaking the review is simply for the Court to vote as one on the report, without have discussed with the Manx Wildlife Trust and the Manx any change or amendment, as was implied by the question Bird Atlas and conservation organisations, in relation to the from the Hon. Member for Rushen? Wildlife and Conservation section, and, indeed, with the agricultural industry; there has been a focus group with The President: Minister. representatives there in relation to the wildlife conservation section and the activities of the advisory service. The Minister: Yes, indeed. So, we are, in fact, having quite a comprehensive review That is, indeed, what will happen, but I felt that the Hon. of the whole area, including the operation and future of Member for Rushen was seeking more clarification and not Knockaloe as a farm, with a view, in the long term, to an alteration in the report, which is, of course, a factual considering what the new advisory service should be, how report on an implementation process that has taken place. the wildlife office should be organised in the future, and

Waste disposal charges report —T ynwald s failure to receive Wildlife and Conservation Office —Improvement of profile Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 457 T121 how this would fit in with our plans to move the majority Hill lands and heather moors of our office-based staff under one roof in St John’s, when, Recognition of importance hopefully, one day we build our new headquarters. 12. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) The President: Hon. Member, Mr Anderson. to ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry:

Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. Does your Department recognise the importance of the Would the Minister confirm that wildlife and Manx hill lands, and especially the European significance conservation is the only section of his Department that has attached to our heather moors, and when will your seen an increase in the establishment for several years; could Department officially designate our heather moors under he confirm the number of posts now in this area of DAFF; the Isle of Man Wildlife Act 1990? and, furthermore, is there any further increase within the Department’s three-year business plan envisaged within this The President: Question 12, Mr Henderson. area? Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Vainstyr Eaghtyrane. Ta The President: Minister. mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym.

The Minister: I have to disappoint the Hon. Member. The President: Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and I have not got the precise information as to the staffing Forestry. numbers there with me. I believe it is in the order of half a dozen and I know there has been some temporary contract The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry staff in an attempt to tackle the planning issues, as they (Mr Rimington): Mr President, we do recognise the have a regulatory responsibility to manage in order that the European significance of much Manx heather moorlands. designation of areas of special scientific interest (ASSIs) They are valuable for the heather moorland itself, the upland should be progressed. I will have to come back to the Hon. peatlands, hen harriers, alpines on Snaefell and native birch Member with that more precise information. regeneration. I can say that there are no plans in our business plan for However, it is the Department’s view that the uplands any increases in staff in any area of our Department and, are not under threat at the present time. This is because indeed, the financial figures allied to the wildlife and sheep levels are largely controlled through stocking limits conservation section actually show a decrease in the next attached to the Department’s subsidy schemes and three years, but this is in relation to primarily the funding afforestation on heath moorland has ceased. of the agri-environment scheme. As regards designation of these upland areas, it could be several years before upper areas are designated as areas The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. of special scientific interest because of other conservation priorities. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Would the Shirveishagh agree with me that a wildlife The President: Mr Henderson. and conservation section under the line management of the agricultural section, and given that the wildlife and Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Will the conservation section will be advancing policies which may Shirveishagh not agree with me that his Department is in well be in potential conflict with the agricultural sector of receipt of sufficient expert information, such as the the Isle of Man, then this is not the best place for it, and it Donaldson Edwards Review of Ballaskella site in Sulby, should be allowed to function in its own right to give it and the Manx hill-land seminar documents from 1995, more transparency and freedom to recognise the importance written by eminent and well-respected experts on of our natural heritage? conservation subjects? Will he agree that he has got sufficient information to actually progress a designation The President: Minister to reply. sooner, rather than later? Would he agree also that it is simpler to do on The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. government-owned land; and, certainly, would he not agree I think that the Hon. Member makes a valid point and with me that, under the present economic climate, our there are, in fact, valid points that can be made on the natural heritage is, in fact, under increasing threat and the opposite side, as well. This is why we need that review. areas of special importance are actually being nibbled away The Wildlife Office has really, as has been pointed out, at? only come up to strength in recent years and has had that increase in staff and been operating under a particular The President: Minister. management regime. It is now time to review that and see what is the best regime for the future and we have to The Minister: The last point the Hon. Member makes remember that the Wildlife Office has very wide is possibly valid but I think the upland areas are, in fact, responsibilities – in fact, perhaps, possibly too wide. They relatively secure and are relatively well managed through have quite a regulatory role in terms of the Wildlife Act and the activities of my Department and the farming industry in terms of planning and designation, and it is, maybe, to itself in the management of those uplands. try and provide some focus for their activities that this I accept that the Hon. Member has pointed to areas on review is taking place. which there is quite good documentation. It is not my place

Wildlife and Conservation Office — Improvement of profile Hill lands and heather moors —Recognition of importance 458 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers at this point in time to say that the priorities of the Wildlife that European significance, therefore giving it greater Office – in what it should or should not determine as areas importance still? of special scientific interest – should be determined. And, further to that, would he agree that the designation It is true that actually going through that process is quite of areas, far from it interfering with land users and farmers, long-winded and the Hon. Member will know quite a bit will assist those people and actively encourages land use, about that through his previous role in the Department, but but, in fact, protects our natural heritage for future I think what the Hon. Member says is recognised and the generations, and that is what conservation is all about? points that he makes will be taken on board. The President: Minister. Would you care to reply, sir? The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mrs Craine. The Minister: Not really but. . . (Laughter) Mrs Craine: Thank you, Mr President. Will the Minister agree that the hill land of the Isle of The President: In that case, Hon. Members, we will Man forms an important part of the farming community continue. and is not just there for the pleasure of townsfolk to tramp through and, in some instances, leave gates open, or remove sleeping lambs from their mothers, mistakenly believing them to be abandoned, and that the pleasing appearance is EDUCATION a result of farmers going about their business unhindered by interference of misguided regulations, and should stay Manx and other minority languages that way? British-Irish Council inter-governmental support Would he also agree that the term ‘moors’ is a reference more readily acceptable in Yorkshire than here, and that 13. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gawne) to ask the such an introduction of that term has an English reflection, Minister for Education: and that our hills should continue to be referred to as ‘hills’? Following the recent British Irish Council meeting which A Members: Hear, hear. discussed minority languages will you explain Ð (1) whether the level of support currently offered by the The President: Minister to reply. (Interjections) Government to the Manx language is equal to that offered by other Governments of the Council to their indigenous The Minister: Thank you, Mr President – languages; and (2) what progress was made in advancing inter- Mr Cretney: Just agree. governmental action in support of the minority languages of Council member countries? The Minister: Yes, I think is the answer to that quite long question! The President: Question 13; Hon. Member for Rushen, It is, in all these cases, finding a balance. We do accept Mr Gawne. that the hill lands would not be as they are without the activity of the agricultural industry in protecting them and Mr Gawne: Guru mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey managing them through their grazing of sheep, which is kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. done within the terms laid down by the Department – I hope not too onerous in its regulations, but there has to be a degree The President: Minister for Education. of regulation – and finding that balance between all the different parties. One little factor we have not heard in The Minister for Education (Mr Rodan): Mr today’s debate is obviously the interests of certain people President, the level of governmental support to indigenous with two wheels that like flying over the hill lands – just to languages is not equal between any of the participating stir up the pot a little and get another factor into the balance members of the British Irish Council (BIC), since, as the of the equation! Hon. Member will appreciate, the relative health and legal But it is important that the hill lands are managed status of the languages does vary considerably, as does the sensitively for the benefit of all, which does include type of support accorded to them by each of the BIC environmental benefit. members. However, in general terms, whilst being relatively behind The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson. the provision in Scotland, Ireland and Wales, the Manx language does receive considerably more support than the Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. languages of Jersey and Guernsey, and also that given to Would the Minister agree with me that being whimsical Cornish by the UK Government. about something so important is hardly doing the subject In respect of progress made in intergovernmental action, justice this morning? (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) there is a clear commitment on the part of all BIC members Would he further agree with me that, in recognising here, to support and promote their respective indigenous on public record, that our hill lands and heather moors – as languages. The group creates a formal mechanism for the correct terminology is – are of European significance, distributing and exchanging information at both officer and then his Department, in conservation terms, should be giving governmental political level. The involvement of all BIC these areas maximum priority and that these are the only administrations in this forum may, in turn, contribute to the areas within his wildlife and conservation remit that have development of a more strategic and holistic approach to

Hill lands and heather moors — Recognition of importance Manx and other minority languages —British-Irish Council inter-governmental support Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 459 T121 language policy, with benefits for all concerned. support is not seen as being at the expense of other areas in This, in itself, should be seen as an achievement and a education which clearly merit support, and I am happy to major step forward in terms of support for indigenous, confirm that the Department is being careful to keep a minority and lesser used languages. There are a wide variety correct sense of proportion. of policies, projects and initiatives supporting these I would pay tribute to the voluntary sector, which has languages within the various BIC administrations. been particularly active in keeping the interest alive, Whilst much of the work in terms of supporting and particularly in pre-school education. The support of parents’ promoting languages is clearly specific to the circumstances groups as well is acknowledged in this process, and the Isle of each member, there are areas where a greater degree of of Man, unlike other jurisdictions, is one country where the co-operation and exchange of information at governmental indigenous language is on the up, as opposed to being in a level would be beneficial to all parties. process of decline, albeit, managed decline, which is At the recent meeting, I can confirm that initiatives in certainly the case in other members of the British-Irish particular relating to education, cultural tourism and joint Council. research were all discussed. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. HOME AFFAIRS

Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Isle of Man Constabulary Can the Education Minister enlighten us as to any Ensuring public confidence specific elements that were discussed, any specific projects which have been agreed, or which are likely to be 14. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Earnshaw) to ask the proceeding, following the British-Irish Council meeting? Minister for Home Affairs:

The President: Minister. In the light of various recent events, would you make a statement to ensure public confidence in the Isle of Man The Minister: Yes, Mr President. Constabulary is maintained? Yes, I am happy to give, as an example in the education field, particularly for early years, and adult education, there The President: Question 14, Hon. Member for Onchan, are a number of initiatives that have been discussed at officer Mr Earnshaw. level and political agreement was reached that these should be pursued relating, in particular, to IT development – the Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to ask availability of software packages and possible machine the Question standing in my name. translation aids in respect of Scots Gaelic, Irish and Manx Gaelic. The President: I call on the Minister for Home Affairs, As one particular example, further research jointly Mr Braidwood. undertaken on the barriers that prevent language transmission between generations, and across family settings The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Braidwood): Mr in particular, has been undertaken in Wales in particular President, I am pleased to have the opportunity to make a and there is intent to share and pursue such research. Cultural statement to this Hon. Court, having regard to recent events tourism strategies have also a part to play and the British- that I accept could have a detrimental impact on confidence, Irish Council Tourism Group, which is led by Guernsey, insofar as the Isle of Man Constabulary is concerned. has been tasked with looking at this particular aspect of In particular, I refer to the statement I made to Tynwald development also. in October, relating to the allegation that a bugging device had been used in an interview room within the CID complex The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. at Police Headquarters. Mr President, I make the following observations, most Mr Gawne: Guru mie eu, Eaghtyrane. of which were made during my previous statement. Would the Minister agree that, while the steps taken by First of all, the allegations are historic in nature, with the Manx Government are relatively small, they are having the last reported usage of this equipment being nearly five a huge effect, and would he further agree that the measured years ago. The Chief Constable ordered a full search of all ‘softly, softly’ approach taken by the Isle of Man other interview rooms in police premises across the Island Government on this issue of language development is on 20th October this year, and no further devices were found. ensuring that people who may feel threatened by the various This gives a solid reassurance that nothing of such a nature developments are not being so? is in place now. Current professional standards, structures, systems and The President: Minister. management are strong and should prevent any reoccurrence. Honesty and integrity are at the heart of The Minister: Yes, Mr President. current Isle of Man policing philosophy. I would agree that the level of support in recent years Notwithstanding the historic nature of the allegation, has been appropriate and has clearly met the aspirations of that the Chief Constable, with my full support, had those families who are particularly interested in Manx absolutely no other consideration of doing anything other language. than launching a full and most thorough investigation, I think it is important, as well, to ensure that the level of demonstrates real evidence that honesty and integrity are at

Manx and other minority languages — British-Irish Council inter-governmental support Isle of Man Constabulary —Ensuring public confidence 460 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers the forefront of Isle of Man Constabulary policing Mr Singer: Thank you. Mr President. philosophy. Could I ask the Minister: senior officers have been It is interesting to note that this allegation did not suspended by the Chief Constable during investigation of materialise as a result of a complaint from an advocate or, complaints against them, yet when complaints have been indeed, a member of the public, who may have been a made against the Chief Constable he is not suspended; why prisoner and may have been interviewed at police is there a different set of rules? headquarters. Rather, it was uncovered by the Chief Constable personally, again demonstrating that there is a Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. high level of internal scrutiny within the Constabulary, and that professional strength and courage exist to positively The President: Minister to reply. respond in a way befitting a modern police force. I am sure that the majority of Members in the Hon. Court The Minister: Mr President, there is not a different set will also share my view that the Chief Constable did the of rules in that – right thing in outsourcing the investigation to a police force from England, not only to ensure total impartiality and Mr Houghton: Well, why has he not been suspended? independence, but also to publicly show that this is the case. The Chief Constable is not taking part in this investigation, The Minister: – the Department has received the officials reporting directly to my Department. complaints regarding the Chief Constable, and, as this is a Turning to another aspect of confidence in the police, I very unusual occurrence, we have taken advice from the have to say that public perceptions of the force are naturally Association of Chief Police Officers, who has recommended shaken when reports of staff suspensions appear in the that we contact Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Police, Sir media. When internal personal matters become the subject Ronnie Flanagan, and we are seeking advice from him. of media speculation, newspaper headlines, and, might I The suspension of the two officers was because say, political discussion, the organisation affected is bound investigations had shown that disciplinary procedures had to suffer in terms of public confidence and staff morale. been . . . you could say, the line had been crossed, and that Suspensions concern individuals and are rightly is why they have been suspended by the Chief Constable. confidential. Partial information leaked into the public domain does not provide a clear, complete picture of what The President: Hon. Members, I think we need to be a is going on. little wary where we are going with the question. It would not be proper for me to comment on specifics, but I would like to make three very general observations: Mrs Christian: Yes. (1) suspensions happen according to an objective and comprehensive set of procedures; (2) suspension does not Several Members: Hear, hear. imply guilt; (3) if a number of suspensions occur, they are not necessarily all connected. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. Mr President, this is a particularly difficult time for the Isle of Man Constabulary’s police force, which has a tough Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. job to do even at the best of times. I want to pay a personal Can the Minister confirm that Superintendent Ball of tribute to the force, which is continuing to work around the the Cheshire Constabulary has written to each individual clock, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to protect our member of the Law Society? community. I would like to state my support for every And, if this is true, what is the purpose of this member of the force and acknowledge the professionalism communication, and does he not consider that such actions and integrity that continues to be at the forefront of have, at the very least, tainted the investigation by the everything that the Constabulary does. Cheshire Constabulary, sir? I hope my Hon. Colleagues agree with me in this statement. The President: Minister.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw. The Minister: Mr President, the investigation by Superintendent Ball is how he wants to proceed with the Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. I would firstly case, and I am not going to comment on that, sir. like to thank the Minister for his reply, which I think is helpful, because public confidence has been shaken. Mr Houghton: Nobble the judiciary! But I would like to say, regarding the recent suspensions, in the absence of any information which is in the public The President: Hon. Member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. domain, will the Hon. Minister advise if the suspensions of the Deputy Chief Constable, Neil Kinrade, and the Detective Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Inspector, Rob Kinrade, are in respect of non-criminal Could I ask the Minister for Home Affairs: as the matters, or are we to see them follow Detective Inspector confidence in the police will take, certainly, months, if not Graley and Detective Constable Forbes and end up before years, to be reinstated within the community, why is the the Courts? Chief Constable not here to hear our concerns, or the concerns of Members? After all, it was the Chief Constable The President: Hon. Member, I am not sure that that that made this information available to us and to the public. question can be strictly answered. Hon. Member of Council, Mr Singer. The President: Minister.

Isle of Man Constabulary — Ensuring public confidence Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 461 T121

The Minister: Mr President, the Chief Constable at the On the other parts, I would rather not comment at this present time . . . as every Hon. Member of this Court realises, stage. with people being off with stress, people off with suspensions, the senior management team is rather depleted, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. and I would rather have the Chief Constable at Police Headquarters, running the Isle of Man Constabulary, than Mr Houghton: I thank you, Mr President. sitting in the gallery here. Will the Minister take immediate action to arrange for a I am sure he will be able to listen to Question Time, sir, judicial review on the grounds for suspension of these senior whilst it is being broadcast. officers, so, at the very least, to satisfy him that this action taken was a right and proper course? And, if otherwise, The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle. would he then arrange for the immediate reinstatement of these high quality officers, sir? Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. In view of the very serious situation that we have, where The President: Minister. I understand there are complaints from at least three officers made against the Chief Constable, could I ask the Minister The Minister: Mr President, I have no authority for Home Affairs how this matter is proceeding, so that, whatsoever to ask for a judicial review. A judicial review hopefully, it may be concluded at the earliest opportunity could be asked for by the individual or a party who was which would provide reassurance to (Mr Houghton: Hear, aggrieved by a petition of doleance. I have no authority hear.) officers, the public and, in fact, the Chief Constable whatsoever, sir. himself? And, further, could I ask if he is aware that officers of The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Delaney. the Cheshire Constabulary have alluded to the fact that the investigation which is currently proceeding is likely to run Mr Delaney: Just a clarification question, Mr President. for anything up to 12 months, which, if so, could cost the Would the Minister confirm that, at the meeting that took Government perhaps up to £400,000? place with the Chief Constable recently, none of the matters of the concerns that are under discussion at the moment, or Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. not under discussion, were allowed to be discussed at that meeting? Would the Minister confirm that? The President: The first part of that question has already been answered. The second part, sir, if you wish, you can The President: Minister. reply to. The Minister: Mr President, from what I can gather – The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. and unfortunately I did miss that meeting – it was only I said, in my statement in October, that this investigation concerning the policing plan. could run for a very long time. Mr Delaney: That is it; thank you. The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. The President: Mr Earnshaw. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn Sthie, the Minister for Homes Affairs, not agree, Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. that part of the problem that we have here with the police This is obviously a tricky subject and I acknowledge force goes back to the structure of the system of government that. I would like to ask the Minister: would he indicate that we have? We should have a proper police authority what impact the recent revelations are having on the morale where issues can be addressed and it has a cross section of and the effectiveness (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) of junior the community. officers trying to carry out their duties in enforcing the law? And would he also not agree that the opportunity for every Member of this Hon. Court was given – and I was The President: Minister. there with a couple of Members – at a meeting with Hon. Members with the Chief Constable about a week or 10 days The Minister: Mr President, the only comment I would ago? like to make is that, yes, morale will be low. When And also can the Minister confirm that there were issues, accusations are put at anybody it affects a person’s morale, as far as bugging going on without any knowledge , when I and the only thing I can think of is that one thing we have was a Member of the Home Affairs Department? to do is to boost that morale, and the way that we can do it is by all Members of this Hon. Court supporting the Isle of The President: Minister. We are not going into a debate Man Constabulary. on the principle of a police authority. Mr Cannan: Hear, hear. Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. The President: Hon. Member for Ayre. The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I know that the Hon. Member for Onchan has always Mr Quine: Yes, would the Minister concur with me that been an advocate for police authority, and I do not think there is proper legislation in place relating to the that it is for me to comment on that sir. investigation of alleged criminal offences and alleged

Isle of Man Constabulary — Ensuring public confidence 462 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers disciplinary offences, and that legislation provides for due The Minister: Yes, I would, Mr President, and I would recourse to law to ensure a fair outturn of such also like to say that, after the completion of the Ballastowell investigations, and that politicians would be well advised inquiry, the Acting Deemster Rowell praised the Isle of Man to stand back from this matter? Constabulary for their actions and their very thorough investigation. Mr Cannan and Another Member: Hear, hear.

The President: Minister. Emergency joint services control room The Minister: Mr President, I totally concur with the Costs and completion sentiments which have been expressed by the Hon. Member for Ayre. 15. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs: The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Gelling. (1) How long has the building containing the emergency Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President. joint services control room been completed; Keeping to the administration and the policy, has the (2) how much was the cost of its construction; and Department of Home Affairs any knowledge that the policy (3) why has this new facility not yet been brought into of the police has changed in respect of suspension? In other service? words, is the situation now different to what it was years ago, and is it purely the Chief Constable that has the final The President: Question 15. Hon. Member for Douglas say as to whether or not an officer is suspended, sir? North, Mr Houghton.

The President: Minister. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name, sir. The Minister: Mr President, under the Discipline Regulations 1995, it is entirely up to the Chief Constable The President: Minister for Home Affairs, Mr as to which of his officers he suspends. Braidwood.

The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne. The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Braidwood): Thank you, Mr President. In answer to part (1) of the Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Is the Minister Question, the building was completed in August 2002. aware that, at that meeting 10 days ago, or just over a week In answer to part (2), the final overall construction cost ago, with the Chief Constable, I raised these very issues is expected to be £1,458,548 and is within the overall capital and was told that the report would be presented to his vote of £1,475,000 approved by this Hon. Court in July Department by the Chief Constable at its meeting last 2001. Wednesday? In answer to part (3), the introduction of the emergency And would he also agree that the Chief Constable seems services joint control room, together with the new digital to believe that this issue is likely to drag on for at least two, trunk radio system (TETRA), form the key elements of the if not five, years? Government’s strategic policy in respect of communications. The President: Minister. The new control room can only be brought into service when all elements of the two projects are in place and Mr Houghton: And cost millions. (Interjection) integrated. The key elements of the projects are: (a) the new building; (b) the new TETRA system, including migration The Minister: Mr President, can I just repeat again I of the emergency services; (c) the new command and control was not at that meeting, so I am not privy to what happened systems for the control room; and (d) the completion of the between the Chief Constable and the Hon. Member for recruitment and training programme for the new staff. Rushen. Hon. Members will recall that the company originally Sir, I am not a clairvoyant: I do not know how long this contracted by my Department for the new TETRA system investigation will take to complete. was placed in administration in February 2002, and the contract subsequently terminated. Following a new The President: Final supplementary, Hon. Member, Mr tendering process, an alternative systems provider was Earnshaw, the original questioner. identified. At the January 2003 sitting of this Hon. Court, approval Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. Whilst I was given for the additional capital expenditure required to acknowledge the comments for the Hon. Member for Ayre, allow a contract to be placed with Motorola. The contract and I do respect those, would the Minister accept that this was subsequently signed on 6th February 2003, and I am question was raised for genuine reasons, (Mr Houghton: now pleased to be able to advise this Hon. Court that the Hear, hear.) in an effort to try and allay public concerns? new system completed the formal systems acceptance testing on 21st November. Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. There now follows a period of integration, with the new command and control systems currently being installed and The President: Minister. commissioned in the control room, and then migration of

Isle of Man Constabulary — Ensuring public confidence Emergency joint services control room —Costs and completion Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 463 T121 the emergency services onto the new systems. The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Braidwood): In parallel with the above activities, the recruitment Thank you, Mr President. programme for the new civilian staff for the control room Mr President, the decision and authority to suspend is close to completion, and an extensive training programme police officers from duty is vested in the Chief Constable, is underway. or other officer with his delegated authority, pursuant to Mr President, subject to the satisfactory completion of regulation 21 of the Police Discipline Regulations 1995; all elements of the parallel projects, it is intended that the thus it is purely a matter for the Chief Constable and not TETRA system and the emergency services joint control the Department of Home Affairs. room will go live in April 2004. In deciding whether a police officer should be suspended from duty, and in the particular recent cases, which may be The President: Mr Houghton. the subject of this Question, I can confirm that the Chief Constable carefully considered each case on its merits. A Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Can I ask the full risk assessment and analysis was completed, which took Minister: who will actually take charge of this building? into account a number of issues within the following criteria: Will it be a police building, and, if it will not, why will it the nature and seriousness of the alleged discipline offence; not? the cogency of the evidence in respect of the alleged offence; And also, what are the arrangements for public access the impact the allegations would have on the reputation of into that building – simple things like deliveries and so on? the force; the likelihood of imprisonment, dismissal, or a And also, the obvious point, what are the fire access requirement to resign from the force in the event of the arrangements for that building? officers being found guilty of either criminal or disciplinary offences; the likelihood that the officer would interfere with The President: Minister. the witnesses or evidence; that the suspension was in the public interest; that the supervisory, management and The Minister: Mr President, it is not a police building; command duties of the individuals would be compromised it is a joint control room, and, in actual fact, the if they remained at work; and any other factor that is relevant Communications Division, the technical side of the in the circumstances. Department of Home Affairs, is based there. It will be noted that this approach, which I fully support, The emergency services or the fire service: the access is most comprehensive and capable of withstanding the at the present time is through the police compound. closest examination and most rigorous scrutiny. Also, how the Chief Constable used this far reaching methodology is Mr Houghton: Through a locked door. Just one final carefully detailed and, if ever challenged, is capable of supplementary, sir, if I may. withstanding the closest possible examination, and, indeed, the most rigorous scrutiny. The President: Mr Houghton. Interestingly, the policy for suspending officers within the Isle of Man Constabulary has hitherto not been as Mr Houghton: Thanking you. Can I ask the Minister if extensive as this, but, now the Chief Constable has he could arrange a visitation for Members of Tynwald round personally applied it in recent cases, it will form a new and this building, when it is up and running in April? much more comprehensive policy within the Constabulary. Also, the Chief Constable is personally taking on the The President: Minister. responsibility to monitor the necessity to continue suspensions and to formally review the necessity on a monthly basis. The results of the monthly formal review The Minister: I have no problem with that, sir. are actually notified to the officers in writing. Again, this was not in the previous force’s policy, but the Chief Constable thought it sensible and proper in the circumstances and this also will be applied across the board, Senior police officers’ suspension with amendments to force policy. Chief Constable’s decision Mr President, I am not minded to give express detail of the reasons emanating in the suspension of the officers in 16. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to recent weeks. First of all, the investigations have not been ask the Minister for Home Affairs: finalised and thus remain sub judice. Secondly, I do not believe that it is in the very best interests of the officers Are you content with the decision taken by your Chief concerned to talk about their alleged misconduct in such a Constable to suspend from duty two senior police officers public forum. who are being investigated for minor procedural matters? It is probable that both officers are well known across the Island, and, if I were to give any detail, then I am afraid it could prove to be very damaging to them on an individual The President: Question 16. Hon. Member for Douglas basis. In the circumstances, it may be better to allow the North, Mr Houghton. investigation to continue to completion before any public comment is contemplated. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to This is most certainly the view of the Chief Constable, ask the Question standing in my name, sir. who refuses to release information or offer any comment that would damage the officers within the community. The President: Now, Hon. Members, we have been Notwithstanding, this Hon. Court in general, and the largely down this one. Minister. Member for Douglas North in particular, can come to the

Emergency joint services control room — Costs and completion Senior police officers suspension —Chief Constable s decision 464 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers conclusion that neither officer was suspended for minor The President: Hon. Member, I am ruling you out of procedural matters, as the Question asks. order, because you are trying to go down a route which the I do, however, thank my Hon. Colleague for asking this Minister has already referred to as being sub judice – Question today, as it has given me the opportunity to explain to this Hon. Court the extent and thorough professional Mr Houghton: Issues of sub judice, sir – approach followed, taking major decisions relating to the suspension from duty of two officers from the Isle of Man The President: This is an ongoing case, sir, of Constabulary. suspension which is being reviewed by an outside body – Mr President, as previously stated, to make any further comment in relation to the specifics of the case could be Mr Houghton: Mr President – sub judice. The President: We will leave it at that. Resume your The President: Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. seat, sir!

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Houghton: Mr President – Is the Minister aware that the original disciplinary and suspension papers of the Deputy Chief Constable were The President: Resume your seat, sir! indeed defective, and have recently been reissued to that officer? Mr Houghton: – the issue of sub judice is to do with Is he also aware, or does he not acknowledge, that the criminal matters – Deputy Chief Constable has been, therefore, unlawfully suspended from duty for almost two months, sir? The President: Hon Member!

The President: Hon. Member, I think we will cease at Mr Houghton: – not that of policy, sir! that. You are stretching the rules as far as is practical. Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. The President: Hon. Member! Hon. Member, you will resume your seat, or I will shout louder. Thank you. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. In thanking the Minister for the reply – and I know it is Mr Houghton: I can shout even louder. a delicate situation – could I ask him, however, if he would be in a position – having already said, before, that he cannot undertake a judicial review of the suspensions – if he would be prepared to utilise his good offices to facilitate an Police communication with Members of Tynwald independent review of the suspensions by, perhaps, a retired Authority and terms of Chief Constable’s ‘edict’ member of the judiciary, (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.), if agreeable to all parties concerned? 17. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mr Singer) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs: Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. Is the edict from the Chief Constable which prevents The President: Minister. members of the Police Force speaking to Members of Tynwald still in force, if so Ð The Minister: Mr President, there are no procedures in (1) under whose authority is it issued; and place. Even if both parties agree, the only way you can have (2) on what terms is this communication forbidden? a judicial review is, as I have already mentioned, one of the parties, or the aggrieved parties taking out a petition of doleance. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Singer, to ask Question 17. The President: Question 17, Hon. Member – Mr Singer: Mr President, I beg to ask the Question Mr Houghton: Sir, I have got one further standing in my name. supplementary, if I may? The President: And we will, again, ask the Minister The President: Right, sir, okay. As long as it is for Home Affairs to reply. permissible sir, you may ask it. The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Braidwood): Mr Mr Houghton: If I can test it, sir, and then I will be President, members of the Isle of Man Constabulary are judged by you. (Laughter) not prevented from speaking to Members of Tynwald by Mr President, is the Minister aware that the reason for the Chief Constable or, indeed, anyone else. the issue of these defective disciplinary papers, was that The only restriction that applies to police officers, who the Chief Constable failed to obtain departmental approval – serve with the Constabulary, is that they must not improperly disclose information they obtain as a result of their The President: And again, sir, I am – employment to any person, and that, Mr President, includes Members of this Hon. Court. Mr Houghton: Sir, this is on policy. This matter is on This restriction is not an edict of the Chief Constable, policy. as the Hon. Member of Council suggests; it is set out quite

Senior police officers suspension — Chief Constables decision Police communication with Members of Tynwald —Authority and terms of Chief Constable s edict Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 465 T121 unambiguously in the Isle of Man Police Discipline orders – as policy in force orders – does the Minister not Regulations 1995, schedule 1, discipline code, which states, agree that such actions are merely oppressive and are a threat under paragraph 6(a) and (c), and I quote: against serving officers, sir?

an offence is committed where a member of the police force without The President: Minister. proper authority communicates to any person, any information which he/she has in his/her possession as a member of the police force, and/ The Minister: No, I do not, sir. or without proper authority makes representation to the Department or any Member of Tynwald with regard to any matter concerning the force. Mr Houghton: You will regret that one day.

Mr President, it is my hope that Members of this Hon. Court will not jeopardise police officers who serve with the Isle of Man Constabulary by seeking to elicit information Chief Probation Officer from them. It is plain to anyone that, by doing so, it would Professional management qualifications render the officer guilty under their police discipline code, thus making them liable to punishment. 18. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to If any Member wishes to have information on policing ask the Minister for Home Affairs: matters that will not cross the boundary of the law, for example, personal data as defined by data protection What professional management qualifications are held legislation, or is not confidential, or otherwise restricted in by the Chief Probation Officer? any way, then the invitation to contact the Chief Constable is forever open. The President: Question 18, Hon. Member for Douglas, Mr Houghton. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Singer. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Mr Singer: Could the Hon. Minister, therefore confirm ask the Question standing in my name. that it is quite open for a police officer to discuss general policy of the police with Members of Tynwald? The President: Again, the answer is in the hands of the Minister for Home Affairs. The President: Minister. The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Braidwood): Mr The Minister: The only point I raised in the answer to President, the Chief Probation Officer holds the required the Question is that of improperly disclosed information professional qualifications to practice social work, namely appertaining in the police force. the certificate and diploma. He has completed Home Office The policing plan is open for everyone and I presume approved management training for senior probation officers, that, if they want to discuss that with their Members, they and, during his 30 years’ experience in the Probation Service, can do so. has maintained a continuing professional development through attendance at relevant conferences, courses, workshops and seminars, as befit his role as head of the The President: Hon. Member, Mr Delaney. Island’s probation service.

Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. The President: Mr Houghton. I thank the Minister for clarifying the point that members of the Constabulary, or anyone else in this Island, is able to Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. contact in confidence (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) Members So, therefore, why is there a high level of attrition in of this Court. this particular department? Is he aware that the staff morale Could he also clarify, at the same time, that members of is low and staff are looking to leave the service as soon as the police force, if they wish to speak to their Members in they can possibly get out? May I ask, tongue-in-cheek, sir: confidence on any matter, it will be held, I hope, by the perhaps he is rubbing shoulders currently with the Chief Members in confidence, and, therefore, will not make them Constable! guilty of any offence? A Member: Oh. The President: Minister. Mr Cannan: Oh, come on! The Minister: Mr President, my view is that they must not, as I have already said, disclose information they obtain The President: Minister. as a result of being in the police force. (Mr Delaney: Accepted.) Any other points they can raise with their The Minister: Mr President, that is not worthy of an Members. answer!

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. Mr Cannan: Hear, hear.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Back on The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. policy, sir. Bearing in mind that this matter was published in force Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh son Cooishyn

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Sthie circulate to Hon. Members the attrition rate over the to get a resolution to this? It is over 18 months now. years, as far as the probation service is concerned, for Hon. Does he not consider that the people of Peel deserve Members to see whether there is any issue, as far as that is better treatment from the bus department, in relation to concerned? I am led to believe that that was a problem many shelter when trying to use their transport? years ago and then it cooled down. So, it is nothing new and I think that if the Hon. Member could give us the attrition The President: Minister. rate, as far as probation officers are concerned over the last 10 years, it should be interesting. The Minister: Yes, I think I tried to indicate in my initial response, Mr President, that the people of Peel certainly do The President: Minister. deserve appropriate bus-shelter provision, as do residents all around the Island. The Minister: Mr President, I have no problem in That is something we have been trying to do, I hope, supplying that information, sir. with some vigour over the past few years, and I think it can be demonstrated if anybody looks anywhere around the The President: Thank you. Island: bus shelters have sprouted up a bit like mushrooms – green mushrooms. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) I cannot comment on the point about the previous planning application. I am not sure of the detail, but if the TOURISM AND LEISURE Hon. Member would like to give me more detail, obviously I will respond. Bus shelters in Peel What has happened in this particular instance is there Departmental provision of has been a frustrating sequence of events which has taken far too long, and I apologise to the people of Peel that it has 19. The Hon. Member for Peel (Mrs Hannan) to ask the taken so long to get to this stage, but I hope that they will Minister for Tourism and Leisure: be satisfied when they do see the new bus shelter in place.

What provision does your Department propose to provide The President: Hon. Member for Peel. shelter for people waiting for buses in Peel? Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. The President: We turn then to Question 19, Hon. Could I ask the Minister: does he not understand – albeit Member Mrs Hannan. that he says that Peel is going to get one of these green bus shelters – the inhospitable nature of these bus shelters? They Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg leave to ask the are drafty, because the sides do not go down to the bottom. Question standing in my name. There are no seats in them, and they are very difficult for people actually using bus shelters. We do not have bus The President: This time the answer is in the hands of shelters in Peel, but with these types of bus shelters, does the Minister for Tourism and Leisure, Hon. Member for he not understand they are totally unacceptable in regard to South Douglas, Mr Cretney. the people using the bus services? And does he not also understand that this area that he is The Minister for Tourism and Leisure (Mr Cretney): talking about is a conservation area and therefore a decent Thank you, Mr President. Following protracted negotiations bus shelter should have been erected, where people can between officers in my Department, Peel Town actually sit down while they are waiting for buses? Commissioners and the Department of Transport, and, subsequent to a public meeting held by Peel Commissioners, The President: The Minister to reply. it has now been agreed that the most suitable site for the principle bus stop in Peel is on Derby Road. The Minister: The shelters do have seats in them. (A At present, the footpath width at this location is, Member: Hear, hear.) There is no question of that. I unfortunately, too narrow to allow a shelter to be erected understand the point the Hon. Member makes about the gap there. However, we have now received support from Peel underneath at the front, and I can explain in some detail as Commissioners to widen the footpath at the expense of one to the reason why the shelters are designed in the manner in car-parking space. which they are. They are appropriate in lots of places. My Department has just received permission from the Ideally, you would like to have more salubrious places Department of Transport to progress this work, which will in which people could wait for the buses; however, we have be financed and undertaken by my Department. to be practical here. These are a standard type of bus shelter In line with our current policy, a standard Macemaine which are acceptable everywhere else. I am sorry if the Hon. bus shelter will be erected at the bus stop on Derby Road as Member does not think they are in Peel. soon as practicable. The President: Hon. Member for Middle. The President: Hon. Member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. Mrs Hannan: Could I ask the Minister: what happened I was just going to ask my Minister, actually, of the to the previous planning application that was submitted Department of Tourism and Leisure, would he be aware some time ago – not in the position where he has mentioned that I facilitated a meeting between the Hon. Member for this morning? But could I also ask why it has taken so long Peel, Mrs Hannan, the Hon. Member for Transport, Capt.

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Douglas, and would he also recall that I have consistently In relation to ‘The Breath Tests (Specified Offences) raised this matter within the Department to try and progress Order 2003’ made by you on 10th November 2003 and it (A Member: Hear, hear.) and it would appear as though laid before Tynwald at this sitting, which from his earlier answer just mentioned that it is the Department 1st February 2004 would permit the Police to undertake of Transport that has agreed, and then it must not, in fact, the random breathalyser testing of motorists, can you be the fault of the Department of Tourism and Leisure to – advise Ð (1) where in the Government Plan 2003 to 2006 and, The President: I think he will agree to all of that. Hon. specifically within your Department’s Plan, does it Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. indicate that it was Government’s intention to either consider and/or introduce the random breathalyser Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Shirveishagh . . . testing of motorists; Admittedly this question is quite revealing, that we need (2) who initiated the proposal to introduce this change planning permission for them – I did not realise that – but and when; is this the new policy, that the likes of the problems that I (3) prior to agreeing to introduce this new measure what have had with bus shelters in my constituency, we do not consultation, if any, did you and your Department now write to you, we just ask Questions in Tynwald, instead undertake and who with; of getting on with the real issues? (4) why do you believe that such a draconian change in the law is necessary and what detailed consideration did The President: Minister. you and your Department give prior to you making this Order; The Minister: Mr President, it has always been the case (5) why have you and your Department decided not to in some locations that planning permission is required for give any publicity whatsoever prior to you making the bus shelters. They are seen as engineering works and, as Order, advising the public that such a fundamental such, require planning permission. change in the law was under active consideration by you Generally, this is not a problem at all, and I do not want and your Department and further, why has no public to indicate any criticism of any parties in that regard. What comment been made by you or your Department I want to do is get on with providing more bus shelters, (A regarding the introduction of the random breathalyser Member: Hear, hear.) so people do not get wet before they testing of motorists; get on the buses. (6) do you believe it is acceptable that prior to the legislative change appearing on the December Tynwald The President: Hon. Member for Peel. Order Paper, that no information was made public regarding this fundamental change in Manx law; and Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. (7) do you not believe that the public who we represent Would the Minister agree with me that I have written to have an absolute right to be advised in advance when him and his officers on a number of occasions regarding Government is considering introducing such legislative this matter and we are now in the middle of winter, the changes that fundamentally affect their rights and second winter, and people have not had the courtesy of any freedoms? shelter within Peel? And could I also confirm with the Minister that no opportunity was given to me recently to The President: Question 20, Mr Speaker. meet with the Minister, as suggested by his Member. The Speaker: I beg to ask the Question standing in my The President: Minister. name, Mr President.

The Minister: Mr President, I do not want to comment The President: The Minister for Transport to reply, Hon. on what the Hon. Member for Middle has said. What I would Member Mr Shimmin. want to say to the Hon. Member for Peel is: I am sorry that she is getting upset about this, but I have tried to indicate The Minister for Transport (Mr Shimmin): Thank that the fault, if there is a fault, in terms of the timescale you, Mr President. here, is not one which should be targeted at my Department. In answer to part (1) of the Question, I can advise that the Breath Tests (Specified Offences) Order 2003 was not Mrs Hannan: It should be, you have just gone all round mentioned in the Government Plan 2003 to 2006, and, in the buses. that connection, I am not aware of other Departments that, as a rule, include secondary legislation in their plans. As The Minister: It certainly is not. far as I am aware, it is only the primary legislative programme that is mentioned. I would suggest that it is not practicable to list all secondary legislation, or, indeed, to always plan for its TRANSPORT implementation in the previous year, when the plan is drafted. Random breathalyser testing of motorists To answer part (2), the Department of Home Affairs Reasons for legislative change and lack of publicity initiated the proposal in an approach to my Department via the Council of Ministers. 20. The Hon. Member for Castletown (Mr Speaker) to ask Part (3): although it is my Department’s responsibility the Minister for Transport: under the Road Traffic Act to amend the list of specified

Bus shelters in Peel — Departmental provision of Random breathalyser testing of motorists —Reasons for legislative change and lack of publicity 468 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers offences, it is clearly a matter for the Department of Home Subsequent publicity included a prominent front-page Affairs to ascertain if there are operational or other reasons article in the Isle of Man Examiner on May 20th 2003, and why a change in the law is required. the Minister for Home Affairs was also interviewed by Manx In this connection, I understand the Department of Home Radio on the subject. Affairs’ view was that this was a minor change to the law The change in the law was also mentioned in the Chief and that it does not, as the Hon. Member for Castletown Constable’s Report, a copy of which was provided to all suggests, provide any legal power to carry out random breath Members of Tynwald. I also understand that the Department tests. of Home Affairs does intend to write to Members of Tynwald However, in order to make the matter absolutely clear, I prior to the January Tynwald to provide more details on the should explain that the police already have the power to benefits of the Order. require a driver to stop, without cause, under the Road In answer to part (6), the level of publicity depends very Traffic Act, section 40, and, having done so, can require much on the issue involved, and, in this case, I am of the the driver to take a breath test, provided they have reasonable view that the level of publicity given was sufficient, and I cause to suspect that the driver has committed a specified understand that, provided Tynwald agrees to approve the offence whilst the vehicle was in motion. order in January, then the Department of Home Affairs will In answer to part (4), I believe it would help to explain be issuing a press release prior to 1st February in that regard. the current legal situation and what is proposed. It will then Finally, I am of the view that, where legislative changes become clear that, far from being a draconian measure, the fundamentally affect the rights and freedoms of the public, order is designed to assist the public and the effective indeed, publicity should be arranged. I believe that the Order utilisation of police time. does not adversely affect the rights and freedoms of the Currently, if a motorist is stopped for an offence that is public. If anything, it improves the treatment of innocent not presently specified, these would be involved in such a motorists. I am also of the view that the public were advised thing as an accident or where suspected of committing an of the change, as previously mentioned. offence of dangerous, careless or inconsiderate driving. So, if the motorist is stopped for an offence not specified and is The President: Mr Speaker. then subsequently suspected of driving whilst unfit through drink or drugs, in order to be breath-tested they have to be The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. arrested and taken to police headquarters. This means that, In the Examiner on Tuesday, May 20th 2003, when it at present, for example, a member of the public who is reported the public statement made by the Minister for Home stopped by the police in Andreas and is then suspected of Affairs, can the Minister agree that what the Minister for being over the drink-drive limit cannot receive the Home Affairs, the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr breathalyser at the side of the road, unless they are suspected Braidwood, said is, and I quote: of committing a specified offence (A Member: Hear, hear.) Although the change will extend the use of the road breath test, Mr but, instead, they have to be arrested and taken to Douglas Braidwood said it will not allow police to randomly stop drivers. and, if under the limit, then taken back to their vehicle in Andreas. It goes on further to state in that article, and I quote: The proposed Order will prevent this occurring, as innocent motorists will be able to be breath-tested at the but he added, the changes do not go as far as allowing police to carry side of the road, if they are suspected of driving over the out random tests. limit. The reason, therefore, for this measure is three-fold: Could I ask the Minister: has he received legal advice, firstly, to reduce the incidence of innocent motorists having advising him that the changes proposed in this Order to go through the trauma of being arrested; secondly, unequivocally do not introduce random breath-testing by suffering the inconvenience of being taken to Douglas; and the police? finally, to reduce the time spent by the police on such matters, so that their time can be more usefully utilised. The President: Mr Shimmin, Minister for Transport. In answer to part (5), I hope the Hon. Member will now agree that this is not a fundamental change in the law and The Minister: Yes, Mr President. I can confirm that the that, therefore, the degree of publicity given was not as comments by Mr Speaker are what was reported in the crucial as he has indicated. newspaper of May 20th 2003, although, in fairness, the However, as I previously stated, although my points that he has quoted were not in speech marks, therefore Department is responsible for seeking Tynwald approval to may have been the journalistic interpretation of what was the change in the law, it is the Department of Home Affairs said. that has proposed and, therefore, requires this change, of The Minister for Home Affairs has made those which my Department approves. statements. I assume it is reported correctly. As far as the publicity of the Order, it is quite often a The issue tends to be on the subjectivity of what random fact that, where minor changes such as this are proposed, breath testing is. As I have attempted to stipulate, section the publicity is limited to that which emanates from placing 40 already gives the powers to the police to stop a vehicle the item on the Tynwald agenda. for any reason. Effectively, that gives them random facility However, in this case, this measure was announced by to stop motorists. the Minister for Home Affairs at the weekly ministerial press From there the decision to actually test randomly on briefing on May 16th of this year, attended by the Chief breath-testing already has empowered themselves to stop Minister, the Minister for Home Affairs, Government’s Press the vehicle. This extends now to whether they can Officer and representatives from the Isle of Man Newspapers breathalyse that person at the side of the road or back at and Manx Radio. police headquarters.

Random breathalyser testing of motorists — Reasons for legislative change and lack of publicity Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 469 T121

I do believe that the Hon. Court and the Island feels stop a vehicle, if they believe they have cause to suspect. strongly that drink-driving – and, indeed, Mr Speaker This is measuring a commonsense approach to the probably agrees – is a curse that we should be trying to utilisation of police time and a member of the public’s time fight out. The police have said that they do not wish for to have that breath test taken on the highway. random breath-testing. Mr Speaker is, basically, alluding to the fact that the Mr Speaker asks if I have received legal advice and, police will abuse these powers by stopping innocent yes, I have information from the Attorney General’s motorists as they are seen leaving public houses. That is an Chambers which says that I have been factually correct in operational issue for the police. I have assurances the police the information given to Members; however, the utilisation force orders will indicate that this does not give a green of the powers afforded to the police is a matter for the light for random testing. I have it on confirmation that the operational side of the police. police would be subjected to criticism and disciplinary measures, were they to do random breath-testing. The Order The President: Mr Speaker. is only being ‘laid before’, today, and further opportunity – probably better than Question Time – will be afforded to The Speaker: Yes, thank you, Mr President. Whilst I Members of the House in order to fully understand the understand the slight dilemma that the Minister for Transport reasons for this measure and the publicity of it. is in, in that it is Home Affairs policy, which he is asked to I would draw to the Speaker’s attention that this is being consider before making an Order under the Act that he his ‘laid before’ today, unusually, as the actual Order is coming responsible for – however, that clearly gives him forward in January. Therefore, again, I would argue that responsibility – could I ask the Minister, does he not agree there is adequate time for the public debate to arise on this that when we make law, we should not anticipate what issue. someone’s intention might be, but we should be sure that But it is not introducing anything that the Speaker feels the law only allows him to do what we want it to do, as inappropriate, and I am concerned that the message is going legislators? out that this gives carte blanche for the police to use greater And secondly, can the Minister confirm that, under the powers; it merely affects those who have been stopped and Road Traffic Act 1985, section 5B, in relation to breath tests, suspected of drinking to be able to be breath-tested at the if an accident occurs, a person can be then arrested if the side of the road, rather than the inconvenience and the officer suspects that the person may have been drinking wasting of police time to go back to the station for the same and may be over the limit? What the change in the proposed mechanism to take place. Order does is, in fact . . . does not even require an accident, and an example I would give – which I believe The President: Mr Singer, Hon. Member of Council. fundamentally affects the rights of the people – is that a person can just be coming out of on-licence premises and Mr Singer: Thank you. Minister. an officer, if they get into a car, can suspect they may have After considering the number of deaths on Manx roads been drinking and that is adequate to require them to take a that are alcohol/drug related, the increasing numbers of breath test under the proposed new legislation. detected drunken driving and the level of permitted alcohol And can I also ask the Minister, does he honestly believe in blood remaining at 80 mm which affects reaction times that this small article of May 2003, which was the only real and the fact that the anti-drink and drive campaign are not public article referring to this change of law, is actually obviously working, do you not believe that random testing, adequate to advise the public of the Isle of Man of a change with safeguards, appears to be the only way to deter people in the law that will affect their individual rights? Does he from drinking and driving, and saving innocent people’s really believe that is adequate in a democracy? lives and saving them from unnecessary injury?

The President: Minister to reply. The President: Hon. Members, I do not want a debate on the actual random testing. Minister to reply, sir. The Minister: Yes, Mr President, I do, and we could spend a long time on an emotive debate like this. The Minister: My personal views on this are probably I would point out to the Hon. Court that, as an example, well known that, yes, I am supportive of any road safety in the United Kingdom the Road Safety Minister has pointed measures. I can agree with some of the comments made by out that, currently, the police have one hand tied behind the Member of Council. If we were to be going down that, their back because they cannot randomly breath test high- then I would expect full public consultation, as, indeed, we risk drivers late at night near night clubs. The United propose to do on a number of road safety initiatives in the Kingdom is looking at that type of legislation. Were we to future. introduce it, then certainly that would require further I do not believe that this does give a random breath- publicity. testing power to the police, although I believe the Speaker’s In a recent article in The Auto Express, a vehicle interpretation disagrees with mine. magazine, two thirds of the population would support an introduction of random breath-testing. I do not believe that The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. this Order does introduce the very things that the Speaker is alluding to. Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh, with his Council It allows an opportunity for individual members of the of Ministers, get off the fence, as far as this issue is public to actually come forward to benefit their own safety concerned, and bring back an Order to Tynwald for random by allowing a confidence that drink-drivers will be chased breath-testing? Does he not agree that it is far better for us by the police. The powers are already there for the police to to have a clear, transparent policy, so that people know, from

Random breathalyser testing of motorists — Reasons for legislative change and lack of publicity 470 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Oral Answers whatever section of the community they come from, that to be able to detect the smell of alcohol they have two they risk being breathalysed? choices. Currently, they are: (1) to arrest and take the And would he also not agree that it would be far better processes I have just outlined, or (2), to allow the driver, on for us in this Hon. Court to bring in random breath-testing their judgement, to go about their way. to catch people before they maim, disable, kill individuals That leaves the responsibility on the police officer to – off the fence – than throwing people into gaol, demeaning determine whether that driver, who may sound reasonably the sanction of prison for what it should be, and catching coherent has actually had more alcohol in their system, goes people before the event, instead of this situation of always down the road and is involved in an accident, causing wanting to be reactive instead of proactive? themselves or others harm. In those circumstances, I would suggest that the police are taking a cautionary stance, that, The President: Minister. if they do detect alcohol, they currently have limited powers, other than to arrest and take them to police headquarters. The Minister: Yes, Mr President, I have a lot of What is genuinely intended here is to try and, indeed, sympathy with the comments made by the member for allow that officer the security of knowing they are not Onchan. I think this is an issue that my colleague, the allowing a member of the public to drive continuously on Minister for Home Affairs, will have heard and the Council the road whilst they have some alcohol within their system. of Ministers will have taken on board. However, my role in Rather they can do that at the roadside and, if the breath this process is to bring forward an efficiency measure for indicator shows that they are below the limit, they can then both members of the public and, indeed, the police service go along and give the police officer comfort. of the Island. I believe that, at the moment, the police officer is in an invidious position that they either have to allow somebody The President: Mrs Hannan, Hon. Member for Peel. who they know has drunk alcohol to go about their way or to arrest. I believe this will improve it, sir. Mrs Hannan: Is it not a fact, Eaghtyrane, could I ask the Minister, that once this Order has been approved, it is The President: Mr Speaker. actually outside his jurisdiction, and then it is up to the police how they operate within the law, as it is being changed? The Speaker: Yes, thank you, Mr President. Can I say I think the Minister misunderstood what I said The President: Minister. in relation to the question asked by Mr Quine. Could I just ask the Minister, whilst he has stated that The Minister: That is true, Mr President, and I would this Order provides a change in the law, and that he has give full due regard and acknowledgement for the working been given assurances by, presumably, the Chief Constable relationship my Department has with the police. I do believe as to what will be the Chief Constable’s policy, does the that this is benefiting the people of the Island. Indeed, it Minister not acknowledge that what the law says is what does not go as far as some Members would like. If it were matters and the policy is irrelevant, if we have a new Chief to be proposing anything further, I have said that I believe Constable, or if police officers apply the law, as it is written? that would be worthy of further discussion. The President: The Minister to reply. The President: Hon. Member for Ayre. The Minister: I would agree, Mr President. We are birds Mr Quine: Yes, would the Minister agree that the of passage. I will move from my position, as other Members proposed change in the legislation and the workability of of this Court will, and, indeed, chief officers, and the that legislation would revolve on this phrase ‘reasonable communication I had was with the Chief Inspector in charge cause to suspect’? That is the cornerstone of all of this. of uniform policing, rather than Chief Constable, although And can he help us by saying what guidance has been made available to police officers as to that definition, and I am confident that the Chief Constable supports the view. the interpretation of that definition, and, in that context, I choose to have a working relationship with the police does the Minister concur with the view of a police and trust in them. They know, after previous conversations spokesman on Manx Radio this morning (A Member: Hear, or debate this morning, that the police are trying to improve hear.) that it is acceptable for a person driving a vehicle, if public relations and this will be utilised to the benefit of the stopped and there is a smell of alcohol, to be taken public. Indeed, we complain about the amount of officers straightaway to a police station for a breath test? Is that the on the beat and available to do the policing of the Island; interpretation to be placed on this phrase ‘reasonable cause this will benefit all sorts. to suspect’? It would appear that the police force believe Yes, anything that is put in legislation is open to so. interpretation; however, my view is this merely facilitates, building on existing powers rather than introducing new The Speaker: Hear, hear. ones.

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Indeed, Mr President. Road traffic accident deaths I have just heard Mr Speaker say they already can do Comparison of Island, UK and Ireland figures so, and, indeed, that is why this is not a major change to the legislation. They have the difficult position at present that, 21. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the were they to stop a motorist, for whatever reason, and were Minister for Transport:

Random breathalyser testing of motorists — Reasons for legislative change and lack of publicity Road traffic accident deaths —Comparison of Island, UK and Ireland figures Oral Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 471 T121

How does the incidence of road traffic accident deaths The President: Minister. per capita in the Isle of Man compare with the incidence in the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland? The Minister: Mr President, if I did not wish to involve any drink-drive debate, I do not think I can go down the The President: Question 21, Hon. Member for Onchan, speed debate at this stage. Mr Karran. We are working closely with the police and, indeed, speed is a contributory cause in a number of these accidents, Mr Karran: I beg to ask the Question standing in my particularly the more serious and fatal ones. name. Indeed, the number of injuries shown on the Island is relatively light, in comparison to the other jurisdictions, The President: The Minister for Transport to reply. when measured on similar benchmarks; therefore, the number of fatalities and serious injuries we have would The Minister for Transport (Mr Shimmin): Mr indicate that speed is a contributory cause in a number of President, the latest available published road traffic accident those accidents. information from Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland I can provide more information to the Hon. Member; is for the year 2001. however, it is still an evolving situation to get the accident In 2001, in Great Britain, there were 3,443 accident statistics to a meaningful operation for both my Department deaths. That is one death for every 17,100 of population. and the police. In the Republic of Ireland, for 2001, there were 411 accident deaths. That is one fatal death for every 9,500 of population. In 2001, the year there were no TT Races taking place Procedural in the Isle of Man, there were eight accident deaths, that is one death for every 9,200 of the population. The President: Now, Hon. Members, I think it is an However, the Isle of Man is a small population from appropriate time in which to break for lunch and can I which to statistically compare with countries such as Great remind Hon. Members that there is a CPA presentation Britain and the Republic of Ireland. For example, in 2001 during the lunch break. there were eight accident deaths, in 2002 there were only three accident deaths, but, tragically, so far this year, in 2003, Mr Delaney: Can I ask a question? there have already been 12 accident deaths. Therefore, the approach from my Department, rather The President: Hon. Member. than compare statistics, is to investigate all serious road traffic accidents individually, examining, in conjunction Mr Delaney: Can I ask that the Questions will be held with the police, the likely causes of the accident and over to the January sitting – all the other Questions? identifying the shortcomings associated with either the highway, the vehicle or the driver, Mr President. The President: It is entirely up the questioners who asked the Questions, I think, Hon. Member. The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. Mr Delaney: As appropriate. Thank you very much, Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Shirveishagh just Mr President. inform this Hon. Court how many of those deaths are related to speed? The Court adjourned at 1.05 p.m.

Road traffic accident deaths — Comparison of Island, UK and Ireland figures Procedural 472 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Written Answers

Answer: In respect of Part (1) of the Question, I can inform Questions For Written Answer the Hon. Member for South Douglas that the Office has received over 900 complaints since the start of the natural TYNWALD MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE gas conversion programme. Around 300 complaints remain outstanding at present, but Refurbishment of Old Government Buildings this figure includes a number of complaints that relate to Review of facilities defects in the property, particularly flues and ventilation, which have been identified by the conversion programme, 22. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Rimington) to ask but are not the fault of the programme or the contractors. the Chairman of the Tynwald Management Committee (Mr The natural gas conversion programme has been an Speaker): immense undertaking for Manx Gas, involving more than 13,000 premises and 25,000 individual appliances and, so, Following the debate for the approval of the any customer complaints must be taken in context. refurbishment of the Old Government Buildings at the The Office is currently receiving less that 10 complaints February 2003 Tynwald, has the Tynwald Management per day, compared to the 134 complaints received at the Committee reviewed Ð height of the problems. (1) the generous layout of the office accommodation for In answer to Part (2) of the Question, Manx Gas has Members of Tynwald; and provided a dedicated contact point for Office of Fair Trading (2) the cost effective provision of canteen facilities for complaints and claim that they have increased staffing and usage by Members and Officers of Tynwald and the re-organised the call-centres of Manx Gas and Primeshade, general public? to enable a more cohesive complaint handling service to be provided. Answer: The answer to part (1) of the Hon. Member s The company has told us that they have also engaged a Question is no, and, further, I do not believe that the statement total of 17 engineers to carry out post conversion work. in the Question from the Hon. Member, Mr Rimington, that The documentation issued to consumers, both before there is a generous layout of office accommodation for and after conversion, has been improved and a final Members of Tynwald is a reasonable statement. customer satisfaction questionnaire has been developed and In fact, the shared office accommodation that will be sent out to all customers up to Sector 43, which will, available to each Member of the House of Keys will hopefully, pick up outstanding issues or concerns. Whether approximate to a space of 9ft x 8.5ft and the shared office they take note of any feedback and respond in a satisfactory accommodation that will be available for Members of the manner is a matter one can only ponder. Legislative Council will approximate to 7ft x 6.5ft. Within Manx Gas have also informed the Office that they have the offices there will be a need to provide each Hon. Member invested in updating the existing software to provide real with a desk, a chair and filing cabinet facilities. I do not, time information on any outstanding work and the clearance therefore, believe that any reasonable person can describe of this work. It is also claimed there is a comprehensive list such accommodation as ‘generous’. compiled after the completion of each conversion sector, In answer to part (2) of the Question, the answer is again identifying any work that could not be carried out and how no. However, the area presently identified as an area within this may be remedied, where possible. the refurbished precinct, which can accommodate a canteen Primeshade are now required to leave an ‘appliance facility for Hon. Members is to be fully considered at a status form’ with any customers who have any appliance later date. Personally, I am satisfied that Hon. Members conversion difficulties, detailing why they have been unable should be provided with adequate canteen facilities at their to convert the appliances. main place of work, that is, within the new Tynwald precinct, We are informed that a special technical unit is although, ultimately, it is a matter for the determination of addressing complex conversion requirements for the more the Tynwald Management Committee. unusual appliances and they say that they have been able to It is hoped to include in the scheme catering facilities convert many more cookers than previously thought which are flexible, so that we can adapt to changing needs possible, where customers have requested conversion of over the years. their original appliance. The company are currently engaged in converting hobs for customers who wish their hob to be returned, rather than accepting a replacement. We have, however, received OFFICE OF FAIR TRADING numerous complaints in this particular area alone. It is further claimed that if a customer has an appliance Gas conversion programme breakdown issue they will receive an immediate Complaints and steps taken appointment to rectify the problem. According to Manx Gas, only 1.79% of the total number of appliances detailed for 23. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Duggan) to sectors 40-49 presented any difficulty during the conversion ask the Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading (Mr process. Houghton): However, the Office is still receiving complaints resulting from conversion work carried out in September (1) How many complaints has your Office received to and October and, so, will, no doubt, continue to receive date regarding the gas conversion programme; and complaints for many weeks to come, as customers fail to (2) what steps are being taken by the contractors to receive satisfactory resolution of their complaint. resolve the situation? There have undoubtedly been improvements in customer

Refurbishment of Old Government Buildings —Review of facilities Gas conversion programme —Complaints and steps taken Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 473 T121 service in recent weeks, but I maintain that many of these CHIEF MINISTER improvements should have been in place from the very beginning and were, in fact, requested by the Office of Fair Tynwald EU Scrutiny Committee Trading even before the conversion programme began. Possibility of establishment As Hon. Members will be aware, the Office has attempted to use its statutory powers to obtain assurances 25. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) from the company, but these were refused by Manx Gas, to ask the Chief˚Minister: and the Office was unable to enforce such assurances through its own legislation. The company, instead, offered Will you give political support to the establishment of a to abide by a code of conduct, which they have now Tynwald EU Scrutiny Committee to consider and report implemented voluntarily, but have refused to allow the on EU developments generally, and on draft EU Office to make any public comment on its existence or legislation which may have a direct or indirect effect on otherwise, even though it is in the public domain. the Isle of Man? I am sure Hon. Members will appreciate the difficult situation my Office finds itself in, and understand the need Answer: The establishment of a Tynwald EU Scrutiny to strengthen the legislation surrounding the activities of Committee is entirely a matter for Tynwald and I would need companies acting in this manner. I see no other satisfactory to hear the arguments advanced in favour of such a move remedy for future control of this important utility than to before I could make my mind up as to the merits of such a pursue the lawful takeover by Government of Manx Gas. I Committee. shall be seeking leave to introduce a Bill into the Keys which I would like to add, however, that the External Relations will seek to take over the supply of gas to consumers, as a Division of the Chief Secretary’s Office monitor and report Government owned company, at the earliest possible on EU developments on behalf of Executive Government. opportunity. I could not countenance that division being asked also to support the work of a Committee being proposed. In these circumstances, and in the light of the fact that such a Committee would certainly require some support, I WATER AUTHORITY would have to look very carefully at the costs and benefits of such a Committee, which, on the face of it, would appear New water treatment works purely to parallel work which is already being done. Cost implications of planning application failure

24. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Chairman of the Water Authority (Mrs Cannell): Career progression and training in public sector Government policy (1) Has the Water Authority submitted a revised planning application for the new water treatment works for 26. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) Douglas and, if so, on what date was it lodged; and to ask the Chief˚Minister: (2) what are the likely cost implications to the Water Authority of the failure to gain planning permission for Does your Government, as a corporate approach, the original proposal? embrace a policy of public sector employee successor training and job secondment to assist those staff in their career progression and give them an ability to apply on Answer: With regard to the first part of the Question, I am an equal footing for Government posts if they are pleased to be able to inform the Hon. Member that the Water competing against any off-Island applicants? Authority submitted a new application for a Water Treatment Works at Homefield Road on 21st˚November and this was Answer: This Government embraces a policy of employee advertised on 26th˚November. development, non-discrimination and equal opportunities. With regard to the second part of the Question, the cost The current Employee Development policy was introduced of the proposed new works has increased for several reasons, following a major review of the policy in 2000. That review including the need to minimise the apparent size of the new involved a large number of staff from across the public works. The proposed buildings have been lowered into the service and at all levels. A key recommendation which came ground by increasing the depth of the excavations, such that from staff was that employee development is a shared approximately one third of the actual height of the buildings responsibility between the employer and the individual is now below the existing ground level. The previous employee. application showed a single building and, once again, the That ethos is reflected in present day policy, where there apparent size has been reduced by creating three separate is a commitment to staff that employee development training buildings. and activity will be made available to help staff to develop The increase in cost of the new works since the refusal in current jobs and jobs they may aspire to. The policy is of the last planning application is estimated to be in the supported centrally through the Personnel Office, whose region of £4 million. This estimate includes the cost of the prospectus for training and development is wide ranging, Appeal, all subsequent re-design costs, the additional covering skills management and competence development. building costs, the effects of building cost inflation and an The nature of development activity depends on the needs increased allowance for project risk. of the individuals. Secondments to other areas of

Gas conversion programme — Complaints and steps taken : New water treatment works — Cost implications of planning application failure Tynwald EU Scrutiny Committee — Possibility of establishment Career progression and training in public sector — Government policy 474 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Written Answers

Government or other organisations have been arranged, Department of Local Government and the Environment where they will fulfil a personal development need. and the Water Authority, will you explain to Tynwald Ð The aim of Government’s policy in this area is to assure (1) what steps you have taken to facilitate an amicable that there is no disadvantage to internal candidates when solution to this dispute; jobs are filled by open recruitment. (2) whether you believe that public exchanges between Indeed, it could be argued that the advantage lies with these two parties is unhelpful for the good government good quality, highly trained and motivated internal of the Isle of Man; and candidates, who benefit from their organisational knowledge (3) what action will you take to ensure that public and experience. bickering between these two agencies of Government The main point I would like to emphasise, however, is does not continue through to the completion of the that opportunities can be and are provided by the employer, proposed water treatment works? but it must be for the individuals to demonstrate their commitment by taking advantage of the opportunities which Answer: I find it most unfortunate when two arms of can, and will be made available to them. Government have differing viewpoints, but it is, of itself, not unusual. Normally, any differences are settled within Council of Ministers, but, of course, in this instance, where the difference of viewpoint includes a Statutory Board, that Acting Ministers, Board Chairmen and others is not so easy. Legal indemnity for Members with responsibilities However, the Council of Ministers has invited the Board members of the Water Authority into Council to discuss 27. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to these differing points of view on a number of occasions. I ask the Chief Minister: have had discussions with both the Chairman of the Water Authority and the Minister of the Department of Local What action have you taken to indemnify the Members Government and the Environment. of Tynwald who undertake responsibilities as Ð As recently as last Thursday, Council of Ministers had (1) acting Ministers; another meeting with the members of the Board of the Water (2) Board Chairmen; and Authority and I feel hopeful that we can now move forward (3) Department members in a more constructive and helpful manner. Each party from exposure to legal action as a consequence of their appreciates the difficulties of the other and all of them are remit of office? now working hard in order to overcome these difficulties

Answer: Council of Ministers considered this and other matters relating to requests and opinions from the Tynwald Management Committee at its meeting on 2nd October 2003. Mount Murray Report Part Two Council agreed that the Chief Minister should meet with Expected date of publication the Tynwald Management Committee, in order, amongst other things, to seek to understand precisely why the existing 29. The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to provisions are considered to be inadequate and what ask the Chief Minister: precisely is required. That meeting is due to take place on 15th December 2003. When do you expect the Commission of Inquiry into Mount Murray to report on Part 2? I would add that, if the Tynwald Management Committee wish Government to introduce legislation, it is the Answer: First I must make it clear that my role in responding responsibility of the Tynwald Management Committee to to this question is simply to act as a conduit on behalf of the draft a detailed paper for Council’s consideration, setting Commission, via His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor. out precisely what is required and the costs and benefits The Chairman of the Commission of Inquiry has thereof, in order that Council can make properly informed informed His Excellency that the Commission is not decisions. This is what is required of any Department presently in a position to indicate a date when it expects to advancing suggestions for legislation and there is no reason be able to report on Part 2 of the Inquiry. for the Tynwald Management Committee to be treated any The Chairman has stated that the Commission is still in differently. the process of taking evidence, but will present its Report To date no such details have been presented and that is to His Excellency as soon as possible following the one issue which will be discussed at the meeting on 15th conclusion of evidence taking. December.

European Constitution Water supplies for new developments Seminars on implications for Island Steps to solve DoLGE/Water Authority dispute 30. The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to 28. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gawne) to ask the ask the Chief Minister: Chief Minister: Will you arrange seminars to brief Hon. Members on Bearing in mind the ongoing acrimonious dispute over the European Constitution and any implications which water supplies for new developments between the may affect the Isle of Man situation?

Career progression and training in public sector — Government policy Acting: Ministers, Board Chairmen and others — Legal indemnity for Members with responsibilities Water supplies for new developments — Steps to solve DoLGE/Water Authority dispute : Mount Murray Report Part Two — Expected date of publication European Constitution — Seminars on implications for Island Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 475 T121

Answer: I gave an undertaking in this Hon. Court in October residents on a statutory basis in a number of areas - public to arrange quarterly briefings for Members of Tynwald, not sector housing waiting lists, for example, where there is a just on the Convention on the Future of Europe and any requirement for 10 years residency before admission on to implications which may affect the Isle of Man, but on the list. European issues in a broader context. I hope that it will be However, I do believe that the Hon. Member is speaking possible to progress these briefings in the New Year. in terms of recruitment, rather than anything else and, therefore, I shall answer on that basis. The Isle of Man Government is committed to recruitment on a non-discriminatory, equal opportunities basis, within Legislative changes affecting people’s rights the confines of the law, including the Control of Absolute right to prior advice by Government Employment Act and associated regulations.

31. The Hon. Member for Castletown (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister: Complaints against DHSS Do you agree that people of the Island have an absolute Number received by Noble’s Hospital Complaints Manager right to be advised by Government regarding any changes being considered, proposed or being made by 34. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Government, its Departments or Statutory Boards, Chief Minister: regarding the introduction of legislation, whether by primary or secondary legislative means, prior to such (1) Will you explain why the figure for the Department changes being made, or appearing on Order Papers, of Health and Social Security complaints as recorded in where such legislative changes fundamentally affect the ‘Complaints made against Departments of people’s individual rights and freedoms? Government and Statutory Boards during the year ended 31st December 2002’, do not include the number of Answer: It is the responsibility of elected Members to complaints about Noble’s Hospital dealt with by the full- consider legislation that is being made or considered by time Complaints Manager; and Government, its Departments and Statutory Boards. (2) will you say how many complaints have been received As a matter of good practice, this Government consults by the Complaints Manager at Noble’s Hospital during with those who are considered to be interested parties and, the period up to the year ended 31st December 2002? where fundamental change is being considered, there are positive attempts to engage as wide an audience as possible Answer: When the uniform complaints procedure was in these consultative processes. constituted in 1991, it was recognised as fundamental to This does not, however, detract from the responsibility define what constituted a complaint. I have circulated, for of elected Members to make decisions, sometimes the benefit of Hon. Members, the definitions which were unpopular decisions, for the wider public benefit. agreed and which form part of the information provided in the Report on Complaints made against Departments of Government and Statutory Boards during the year ended 31 December 2002. Using this definition, those complaints to Control of Employment Act 1975, Schedule 2, Part 1 the DHSS which fall within categories C1 to C7 are included in the 20 complaints included in the document. 32. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mr Delaney) to ask A further 92 complaints have been received by the the Chief Minister: Complaints Manager at Nobles Hospital and these all fall outside categories C1 to C7. They dealt purely with Hospital Do you agree with Schedule 2, Part 1, of the Control of and Community Health Care services matters. Employment Act 1975, matters to which regard shall be had?

Answer: Schedule 2, Part 1 of the Control of Employment ‘Island Branding Initiative’ Act 1975 was repealed by the Control of Employment Constitution, resources and leadership (Amendment) Act 1983; therefore, I cannot understand the Hon. Member s question. 35. The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the Chief Minister:

In welcoming the recent announcement of an ‘Island Discrimination in favour of Manx residents Branding Initiative’ – Government commitment to equal opportunities (1) will you explain how this has been constituted; and (2) noting that the Treasury Minister at Budget time 33. The Hon. Member of the Council (Mr Delaney) to ask alluded to making progress with this, have sufficient the Chief Minister: resources been identified to fund the research required and other expenses; and Do you believe that your Government should (3) is any one Department of Government to be tasked discriminate in favour of Manx residents? with leadership of this project?

Answer: This Government discriminates in favour of Manx Answer: (1) For some years there has been much discussion

European Constitution — Seminars on implications for Island : Legislative changes affecting people s rights —Absolute right to prior advice by Government Control of Employment Act 1975, Schedule 2, Part 1 : Discrimination in favour of Manx residents — Government commitment to equal opportunities Complaints against DHSS — Number received by Noble s Hospital Complaints Manager : Island Branding Initiative — Constitution, esourcesr and leadership 476 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Written Answers in business and political circles about the need to better Appeals Tribunal comprise lay persons, ensure that such communicate the Island s real advantages and to correct the objective evidence is submitted in such a way that those outdated misconceptions of the Isle of Man. To this end a bodies can gain the fullest understanding of the recruitment new Steering Committee has been formed and is being driven process and the decisions reached, including fully by the private sector. understanding any professional advice from which the Members of the Committee were invited to join by the interview panel benefited. Chairman, Professor Hugh Davidson, and the Committee consists of leading individuals from within the Manx community - from both the private and public sectors. The objective of the Steering Committee is ‘to help ‘The Government Plan 2003 to 2006’ strengthen the Isle of Man’s economic performance and Administration’s aims and objectives sense of national identity by positioning its distinctive advantages more clearly across all stakeholders, both inside 37. The Hon. Member for Castletown (Mr Speaker) to ask and outside the Island’. the Chief Minister: (2) The Steering Committee held its first meeting on 8th December 2003 and will meet monthly until April 2004, What is the purpose of ‘The Government Plan 2003 to when it will report on the way ahead. No resources/budgets 2006’, as produced by your administration? have yet been assessed. (3) This initiative is not Government led. The Steering Answer: The Isle of Man Government Plan articulates the Committee hopes to report in May 2004 and how this project aims and objectives of Government and summarises many will best move forward will then be determined by of the more significant planned activities intended to achieve Government, as it is intended that the Steering Committee those aims and objectives. will make its findings available to Government at that time. The plan identifies the core purpose of this Government which is ‘to maintain and build on the high quality of life enjoyed by the people of the Isle of Man.’ It further identifies six aims and objectives which are Advertising senior public service vacancies internationally seen as pivotal to the delivery of a high quality of life for Conflict with Work Permit Committee outlook the people of the Isle of Man. These are:- ● Economic progress 36. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the ● Social well-being Chief Minister: ● Good government ● Positive national identity Is there any purpose in Departments of Government ● Quality environment advertising vacancies for senior appointments within the ● Sound infrastructure public service in the United Kingdom and international The Plan outlines how these six overall aims would be press, if a successful candidate from outside the Isle of achieved by identifying over 200 actions which would be Man is denied a work permit by the Work Permit undertaken during the life of the Plan, together with some Committee whose members have no understanding of 30 Key Performance Indicators, which would show whether the ability of candidates at interview nor comprehend or not we have been successful. the fact that the Interviewing Panel, in making their The Council of Ministers has initiated a quarterly decision, have the benefit of professional advice? reporting procedure, by which Government Departments and Offices must report back to Council on the progress of Answer: I do believe I answered this exact question as a these actions. This will culminate in a final report being supplementary in another place on Tuesday, 25th November. presented to Tynwald in July 2004 – in the form of I repeat here what I said then. Government’s Annual Report for 2003/04. Yes, there is purpose in Departments of Government The process of business planning in Government is advertising vacancies for senior appointments within the continually evolving and improving. The Isle of Man public service in the United Kingdom and international Government Plan 2003-06 was presented to Tynwald as a press, because it is very important that we keep our standards stand alone document in January. The next Plan will form high and this Island should not have standards any less good part of a package, comprising the Government Plan, the than parts of the United Kingdom. individual Department, Board and Office Plans and the The people of the Isle of Man expect, particularly in Budget. The Plan, again, will summarise Government’s respect of the important services which Government overall aims and objectives for the period 2004-07, with provides, that these services should be of at least an equal the individual departmental plans containing greater detail. standard in terms of the way they are provided and the In conclusion, therefore, and to return to the Hon. personnel employed within them. Member’s Question as to purpose – I would say that the On the relatively small number of occasions where the ‘purpose’ of the Government Plan is to clearly state what successful candidate requires a work permit, it is the job of the Government is going to deliver for the good of the people the Department concerned to demonstrate to the Work of the Island, to ensure the delivery of Government’s core Permit Committee by way of objective evidence, the level purpose of maintaining and building on the high quality of of skills and competence (or otherwise) of all of the life enjoyed by its people. In fact, it goes further, in that it individuals considered for the post. provides the opportunity for the people of the Island, and The Department must also, in the knowledge that the their elected representatives, to hold the Government Work Permit Committee and the Control of Employment accountable for the delivery of services.

Island Branding Initiative — Constitution, esourcesr and leadership Advertising senior public service vacancies internationally —Conflict with Work Permit Committee outlook The Government Plan 2003 to 2006 —Administration s aims and objectives Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 477 T121

Breathalyser testing and alcohol limits for drivers private and confidential to the members of the board. Public notices and information (2) The financing of the purchase of the Nunnery Estate by The Nunnery Limited is a matter which is private and 38. The Hon. Member for Castletown (Mr Speaker) to ask confidential to the members of the board; the Chief Minister: (3) Isle of Man International Business School Limited was incorporated on the 25th May 1999; at that time, as As your Government has approved the introduction of Attorney General, I was not aware of the identities of the random breathalyser testing of motorists with effect from individuals or companies (if any) who may have loaned 1st February 2004; will you take urgent and immediate any money to The Nunnery Limited to enable that Company action Ð to purchase the Nunnery Estate. (1) to issue appropriate advance advertising to ensure (4) I confirm that I personally did not advise the that the public are made fully aware of this proposed Department of Education regarding the leasing or fundamental change in the law; subsequent purchase of the Nunnery Mansion and Estate (2) to issue appropriate public notices and advertising, (‘the transactions’) in the ordinary sense of advising and on a regular and ongoing basis, to ensure that the public acting for the Department up to completion of the are fully informed that if they wish to drink alcohol, what transactions. I refer to my answer to Part (7) of Question 28 is permissible for them to drink so as to ensure that they on the Question Paper for Tynwald held on 18th November do not exceed the legal limit for driving and, also to 2003 for further details of the role of Chambers in relation advise the public of how long it normally takes for to the transactions. I did, however, give advice to the alcohol to diminish from the body if a person has been Minister of the Department, at his request, regarding the drinking where such consumption is likely to have transactions, in the sense of reviewing and advising upon exceeded the legal driving limit; (inter alia) the legal consequences of the transactions, in (3) to issue public information poster notices and arrange December 1991 and January 2002, that is after their for them to be displayed, at least in all “on licensed” completion - such advice could have had no influence on premises, within public area(s), advising the public that the transactions or have operated either to the detriment of if they drink alcohol, (providing by way of examples) the Department or to the advantage of any third party, even what is permissible within the law for them to drink whilst if (which is specifically denied) I then had an interest in the ensuring that they do not exceed the legal driving limit? transactions.

Answer: This Government has not approved the introduction of random breathalyser testing of motorists with effect from 1 February 2004 or any other date. LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND THE ENVIRONMENT

Waste operations tipping receipts ATTORNEY GENERAL Apparent discrepancy

The Nunnery Limited 40. The Hon. Member for Castletown (Mr Speaker) to ask Purchase of the Nunnery Estate the Minister for Local Government and the Environment:

39. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask HM Whereas in the year 2001-02 the actual total sum received Attorney General: by your Department from tipping receipts from your waste operations was £306,672 and, whereas your (1) When you were a director of The Nunnery Limited Department estimated that the income for the financial was the purchase of the Nunnery Estate being considered year 2002-03 would be £400,000, can you advise why by the board of directors; the actual total from tipping receipts in the year 2002- (2) did you have any knowledge of how the money was 03 was in fact only £12,655? to be raised to purchase the Nunnery Estate by the Nunnery Limited; Answer: The figures quoted by the Hon. Member for (3) at the time of the creation of the International Business Castletown are the figures shown in the Detailed Government School Limited by the Department of Education, were Accounts for the year ended 31st March 2003. you aware of the identities of the individuals or A note to these accounts states ‘that the form of the companies who had loaned money to the Nunnery Limited Department’s Accounts changed with effect from 1 April to enable that company to purchase the Nunnery Estate; 2002, and the preceding year’s entries are not directly and comparable in all cases.’ (4) will you confirm that you, personally, did not advise The recording of tipping receipts was one of the areas the Department of Education regarding the leasing or where the format changed. The Department’s year end subsequent purchase of the Nunnery Mansion and figures show Ballacallow tipping receipts (gross) of Estate? £370,917.50, abandoned vehicle receipts of £655.00 and miscellaneous receipts of £12,000.00. The tipping receipts Answer: (1) The transaction of any business by the board have been offset against the running costs of the Ballacallow of directors of The Nunnery Limited ( the board ), in relation operating costs, with only the abandoned vehicles and to the purchase of the Nunnery Estate, is a matter which is miscellaneous costs shown as tipping receipts of £12,655.

Breathalyser testing and alcohol limits for drivers —Public notices and information The Nunnery Limited —Purchase of the Nunnery Estate Waste operations tipping receipts —Apparent discrepancy 478 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Written Answers

EDUCATION Form extensions in four schools give additional accommodation for about 200 pupils, and this was fully Proposed new Onchan secondary school used up by 2000, when secondary pupil numbers on the Demographic justification, alternatives Island exceeded 5000 for the first time. and impact on existing schools Since the year 2000, the Department has been undertaking measures on an annual basis from Revenue to 41. The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Gawne) to ask the accommodate the continuing rise in pupil numbers, which Minister for Education: reached 5572 in September 2003. These measures have included the provision of 10 mobile classrooms and the Will you endeavour to answer the concerns of some conversion of corridors, changing rooms and music practice Members with regard to the proposed secondary school rooms into classrooms, wherever such conversions could in Onchan by explaining Ð be effected in the various schools. The result has been that (1) what is the demographic justification for the proposed the schools have coped. This has been, however, at some new secondary school in Onchan, and providing considerable financial cost and, equally importantly, at cost information on Ð to the good running, educational facilities and social (a) the working capacity of the existing secondary overcrowding of the schools. schools in the Douglas area; During the 1996 to 2003 period, not only have secondary (b) the pupil numbers by year group in the Douglas pupil numbers risen from 4,666 to 5572 (an increase of 906), secondary schools; but primary pupil numbers have risen, too, from 5976 to (c) the pupil numbers by year group in the primary 6744 (an increase of 768). Clearly, the primary numbers schools in the catchment area of the new school; have been feeding through to secondary schools and will (d) the anticipated pupil numbers for primary schools continue to do so. Secondary school numbers have been in the catchment area, based on current birth further swollen by an increased ‘stay-on’ rate in the Sixth statistics; Form, as standards continue to rise and the demand for (e) the anticipated changes to pupil numbers on higher levels of qualifications increase. 50% of 16 year predictions for immigration, emigration and proposed olds now stay on at school into the Sixth Form, in addition new development; to the 20% who go to the Isle of Man College. (2) what, if any, alternatives are available for using Following the last round of permanent extensions to existing schools to meet the educational needs of the secondary schools, with the Sixth Form accommodation in Island’s secondary population; the year 2000, the schools’ assessed capacities (SAC) and (3) whether any cheaper alternatives to building a new the numbers on roll (NOR) in September 2003 were: secondary school have been considered by your Department; and (4) what impact the opening of the proposed new Numbers on Roll, 2003 SAC NOR secondary school would have on the intake of pupils to Ballakermeen High School 1300 1442 existing schools? Castle Rushen High School 1140 1028 Queen Elizabeth II High School 870 853 Ramsey Grammar School 950 977 Answer: (1) (a) The need for a sixth Secondary school was St Ninian’s High School 1225 1272 first identified in 1980, shortly after the opening of Queen Total 5485 5572 Elizabeth II High School in 1979. The site chosen was the same one as is now proposed at Bemahague, Onchan. Design of the school was approved and proceeded to Stage One, at As can be seen, the Island’s secondary schools are now which point the Island s economic circumstances changed over their permanent assessed capacities and the surplus for the worse and this led to the plans being shelved. numbers are being coped with through mobile classrooms In 1996, when the total number of secondary pupils in and loss of other facilities to provide general purpose the five schools reached 4,666, proposals for a sixth classrooms. secondary school were again introduced and accepted into The Department’s analysis and projections for the need the Department’s five year Capital Programme, together for pupil places, based on birth rates, Child Benefit statistics, with extensions to the existing five schools to provide for actual numbers on roll in primary schools, central planning purpose-designed accommodation for Sixth Forms. These assumptions and Census data, project that secondary pupil have subsequently been built at four of the schools and that numbers will continue to rise over the next two years, before for Ramsey Grammar School is due to start in 2004. beginning to level off and decrease slightly, but remaining The Sixth Form extensions completed so far deliberately above the level of the schools’ assessed capacities. These included two additional general-purpose classrooms, in conclusions have been corroborated by Economic Affairs, addition to the specific facilities for Sixth Formers. This but, clearly, the key factor for the future will be the shape was a strategic addition to buy time for the expanding of the Island’s economy and how it affects net migration schools until such time as the proposed new Secondary and stay-on rates to post-compulsory education. school could be accommodated in Government’s Papers containing the historical data cited above, as well programme, following the new hospital and incinerator. as the projected pupil numbers requested, are shown as The eight extra classrooms provided as part of the Sixth Tables A and B on page 480.

Onchan secondary school —Demographic justification, alternatives and impact on existing schools Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 479 T121

(1) (b) Pupil numbers by year group in the Douglas address sports facilities, dining areas, circulation space or secondary schools are as follows: playgrounds. About £0.5 million has been spent on installing the seven classrooms since 2000 and a further ten will be needed Y7 Y8 Y9 Y10 Y11 Y12 Y13 Total before 2006, at an approximate cost of £0.7 million. In the Ballakermeen 249 277 250 231 238 108 89 1442 Douglas Schools, if many more mobile classrooms are H.S. installed, it will mean the complete loss of play areas and St Ninian’s 214 181 247 220 220 106 84 1272 outside sports areas. H.S. 3. An Appraisal of Options for Secondary Education accommodation was considered by the Department in 1999. Two cheaper options were proposed: (1) (c) Pupil numbers by year group in the primary 1. Operating a shift system for education at the Douglas schools in the catchment area of the proposed new school secondary schools, whereby younger pupils attended school are: from 8am to 1pm and older pupils attended from 2pm to 6pm. This measure has been implemented for temporary periods in Spain, Greece and Canada, in towns where the R 1 2 3 4 5 6 Total population has grown suddenly and an additional school is Ashley Hill 56 37 48 37 33 47 46 304 being built. Onchan 58 53 46 55 50 52 72 386 2. Additional extensions to existing schools are possible Cronk y Berry 57 50 48 55 45 47 36 338 at four of the five schools. The Department was advised Willaston 21 18 17 24 27 30 22 159 that planners were very unlikely to accept any further new Totals 192 158 159 171 155 176 176 1187 build on the Ballakermeen site, since they consider it over- intensive. Only small additions to St Ninian’s High School are possible because of site and configuration constraints (1) (d) Anticipated pupil numbers for these primary and the pressure which they would place on sports facilities, schools, based on current birth statistics over the last four dining areas, circulation and playgrounds. years, indicate that each year cohort will be within the Large scale extensions are possible at Castle Rushen, present range of 155 to 190, although proposed new housing QEII and Ramsey Grammar School, each costing between development in the Ashley Hill catchment area of 130 £6 million and £11 million, giving a total of £23 million. houses will generate approximately a further 6 to 10 children However, the geographical distribution of primary school per year. catchment areas associated with the secondary schools (1) (e) Anticipated changes to pupil numbers, based on would mean that pupils from Douglas and Onchan would predictions for immigration, emigration and proposed new have to travel to one of these schools to be educated and development, have been partly dealt with in part (a) and in the capital cost would be little different from building a the attached pupil numbers projections shown. It is worth new school in the Douglas/Onchan area. noting, however, the following factors which will impact 4. The impact of opening the proposed new secondary on school numbers, particularly in the Douglas area: school on existing secondary schools can be summarized ● continued housing development in Braddan and as: Onchan; (a) Reducing numbers attending the Douglas ● the effects of the Economic Strategy on the secondary schools to between 1000 and 1200 by composition of the workforce and in particular its age 2009, depending upon future levels of immigration. profile; These numbers will then be at the 1996 level and ● any future Department of Education policy decisions will allow those schools to have appropriate Special about catchment areas to ensure that schools are neither Educational Needs Units, Music and Drama overcrowded nor under-subscribed. facilities, as well as, of course, no overcrowding In summary, projections for both primary and secondary leading to poor behaviour. pupil numbers, through to 2008, indicate continued growth (b) Containing future Capital Schemes at the existing to 2005, followed by a very small decline and levelling off schools to a more modest size than described in to a level similar to that of 2003. Answer 3.2. These are already contained in the 2. Further mobile classrooms could be added to each Department’s Capital Programme. The proposed new school as a temporary measure and this will, in fact, be school will not eliminate the need for the further needed by the Douglas secondaries and at Ramsey over the development of Castle Rushen High School, Queen next few years. In 2000, there were three such classrooms Elizabeth II High School or Ramsey Grammar at the five schools; now there are ten. These do not solve School, but will help to relieve pressure on them the overcrowding permanently, however, since they do not caused by overcrowding in Douglas.

Onchan secondary school — Demographic justification, alternatives and impact on existing schools 480 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Written Answers

Table A payments made to each member to cover meetings/ sessions and travelling allowances; and School Totals from 1989 to 2003 (2) in view of the experience over the last year, does your Department consider the current arrangements in terms School of payments to members to be satisfactory, or in need of Year Total Primary Secondary ‘capping’ (as is the case with local authority members), or in need of reappraisal? 89-1990 9785 5458 4327 90-1991 10006 5552 4454 Answer: (1) Since December 2002, the number of meetings/ 91-1992 10116 5582 4534 sessions attended by each member of the Board of Education 92-1993 10304 5696 4608 and the attendance and travelling allowance payments made 93-1994 10385 5815 4570 94-1995 10584 5976 4608 to each member have been as follows: 95-1996 10732 6059 4673 96-1997 10961 6229 4732 Board Member No Meetings Attendance Travelling Payments 97-1998 11157 6364 4793 /Sessions Allowance Allowance up to 98-1999 11563 6558 5005 attended payments payments and incl. 99-2000 11596 6591 5005 ££ 00-2001 11986 6612 5374 Mr R E Bankes-Jones 41 2480.00 221.48 July 03 01-2002 12045 6679 5366 Mrs E H Bradley 51 3100.00 597.72 June 03 02-2003 12174 6727 5447 Mrs B A Brereton 49 2940.00 405.68 October 03 03-2004 12316 6744 5572 Mr G T Cannell 44 2600.00 99.98 July 03 Mrs R Chatel 53 3340.00 75.60 October 03 Mr A C Collister 52 3100.00 381.48 August 03 Mrs A V Craine* 27 1620.00 274.38 May 03 Table B Mrs E M Deans 45 2660.00 3.80 May 03 Mrs E Godby** 9 520.00 74.97 October 03 Pupil Number Projections 2004-08 Mrs M Howard 64 3840.00 621.18 July 03 Mr E D R Killey 104 6560.00 342.72 October 03 Year 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2003 * Year 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Primary Primary Mrs G Kirk 53 3140.00 274.38 Nov.03 Pre School 120 122 217 182 299 Pre School Mr C S Lewin 28 1680.00 115.26 July 03 R 899 869 841 897 941 900 R 899 900 900 900 900 1 911 901 898 859 905 897 1 941 899 900 900 900 Mrs G I Moore 58 3680.00 474.94 July 03 2 926 915 908 910 860 859 2 905 941 899 900 900 Mr B C Potter 40 2440.00 - Nov. 03 3 930 936 929 912 915 910 3 860 905 941 899 900 4 933 958 942 941 921 912 4 915 860 905 941 899 Mrs B Wooldridge 26 1620.00 - Sept. 03 5 952 939 958 960 950 941 5 921 915 860 905 941 6 887 969 959 970 953 960 6 950 921 915 860 905 * Ceased to be a Board member on her election to the House of Keys. 6438 6487 6435 6449 6445 6379 6391 6341 6320 6305 6345 ** Elected to the Board in July 2003. Av Year Av. Year Group Group (R-Y6) 920 927 919 921 921 911 (R-Y6) 913 906 903 901 906 Inc on Year 128 49 -52 14 -4 -70 Inc. on Year -54 -50 -21 -15 40 % increase 2.0% 0.8% 0.0% -0.6% 0.2% -1.09% % increase -0.8% -0.8% -0.3% -0.2% 0.6% The above figures are based on expenses claims Av. % incr. 2.3% 2.1% 1.7% 1.5% 1.3% -0.46% Av % incr. -0.4% -0.6% -0.5% -0.4% -0.3% submitted and processed up to and including 4th December Expected No 6318 6420 6359 6359 6420 6379 Nil Migration 6391 6341 6320 6305 6345 Net Migration 120 67 76 76 25 85 Av. Migration 85 84 84 84 84 2003. The final figures for the full twelve month period % Migration 1.9% 1.0% 1.2% 1.2% 0.4% 6464 Adj. Estimate 6476 6426 6404 6389 6430 Av % Migration 1.7% 1.6% 1.5% 1.5% 1.4% Proj. Incr. 31 -51 -21 -15 41 since the Board of Education General Election in December % increase 0.49% -0.78%-0.33% -0.24% 0.63% 2002 will, of course, be greater. Secondary Secondary (2) The Department operates the attendance and travel 7 925 903 984 954 961 970 7 953 950 921 915 860 8 884 929 919 981 961 954 8 961 953 950 921 915 allowances for Board of Education and school governors 9 859 910 954 921 986 981 9 961 961 953 950 921 10 852 868 924 966 925 921 10 986 961 961 953 950 according to the Treasury Order, which was approved by 11 809 856 872 919 941 966 11 925 986 961 961 953 12 367 378 430 426 456 460 12 471 463 493 481 481 Tynwald, to cater for a wide range of bodies across 13 309 329 288 348 336 349 13 368 376 370 394 384 Government. The Department of Education is in the process Special Units 41% of reviewing all of its operational costs, including the level 5005 5173 5371 5515 5566 5600 Nil Migration 5624 5650 5609 5575 5464 Av. Av of allowances paid to Board members and school governors Year Group Year Group (Y7-11) 866 893 931 948 955 958 (Y7-11) 957 962 949 940 920 and is currently considering the mechanism of ‘capping’, Inc. on Year 212 168 198 144 51 85 Inc. on year 58 26 -41 -34 -111 % increase 4.4% 3.4% 3.8% 2.7% 0.9% 1.54% % increase 1.0% 0.5% -0.7% -0.6% -2.0% the redefinition of roles of committees and the number of Av. % incr. 1.9% 2.2% 2.5% 2.6% 2.4% 1.54% Av % increase 2.1% 1.8% 1.5% 1.3% 0.9% meetings which are consistent with the duties of governors, NC 7-11 4329 4466 4653 4741 4774 5601 Nil Migration 5624 5650 5609 5575 5464 Expected 7-11 4252 4407 4579 4740 4792 84 Migration 84 85 84 84 82 committee members and Board members. Net Migration 77 59 74 1 -18 5685 Adj. Estimate 5708 5735 5693 5659 5546 % Migration 1.8% 1.3% 1.6% 0.0% -0.4% Proj. increase 24 26 -42 -35 -113 The present arrangements are not satisfactory from the 0.9% 1.0% 1.1% 1.0% 0.8% % increase 0.4% 0.5% -0.7% -0.6% -2.0% Department’s point of view and are in need of amendment. * Estimated figures In due course, I intend to propose the amendments which are necessary.

Board of Education members Attendance at meetings and payments International Business School Limited Money and staff secondments from Department 42. The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the Minister for Education: 43. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Education: (1) Will you indicate the number of meetings/sessions attended by each member of the Board of Education since Will you please advise - they were elected in December 2002, and the relevant (1) how much money has been paid to the International

Onchan secondary school — Demographic justification, alternatives and impact on existing schools Board of Education members —Attendance at meetings and payments International Business School Limited — Money and staff secondments from Department Written Answers TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 481 T121

Business School Limited from your Department since that upgraded to a three-year degree level qualification. company was incorporated by the Department of The Department also employs a range of other staff, who Education, and provide this information on a year by are classed as Social Care Workers; for example, home year basis; carers, residential social care workers and day care officers. (2) how much money was spent by your Department on For these social care workers, we recognise, promote and the costs of incorporating the company, the International provide National Vocational Qualifications in Social Care Business School Limited; and from Level II to Level IV. (3) if there have been, or are, any persons presently on The National Vocational Qualifications that we provide secondment to the International Business School Limited are externally validated by City and Guilds, who are, in from your Department; and turn, validated by TOPSS England. (a) provide dates; and (b) if any charge has been made to the International Business School for the staff seconded from your Department? TRADE AND INDUSTRY

Answer: (1) Funding provided by the Department of International Business School Education to the International Business School Departmental secondments

45. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the 1999-00 Set-up costs £200,131 Minister for Trade and Industry: 2000-01 Subvention 529,888 Refurbishment 509,943 (1) Who in your Department has been, or presently is, 2001-02 Subvention 480,000 on secondment to the International Business School 2002-03 Subvention 490,000 Limited; and 2003-04 Subvention 700,000 (2) is the International Business School Limited being charged for any secondment from your Department? Total Funding provided 1999 to Date 2,909,962 Answer: (1) The Department of Trade and Industry does not have, and has not had, any personnel on secondment to the International Business School. (2) Payment in the sum of £3,400.40 plus VAT was made (2) As a result, no charge has been made or paid. in 1999-00 for legal services provided to IBS. The cost was part of the total sum expended in the year to 31.3.00, £200,131. (3) No officer from the Department of Education is or The Court resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m. has been on secondment to the International Business School Limited.

Announcement of Royal Assent

HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY The President: Please be seated Hon. Members. I have to announce that the Construction, et cetera Social workers’ professional qualifications (Amendments) Bill 2003 received its Royal Assent this Organisations responsible morning. The Companies Act, which was circulated this morning, did receive the Royal Assent. 44. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:

(1) Are social workers’ qualifications accredited to UK Procedural governing bodies; and, if so (2) which organisations are responsible for each The President: Hon. Members, there appears to have particular professional qualification? been some confusion over lunchtime in regard to the Questions. Answer: Social work qualifications are approved by the The Questions on the Question Paper this morning will National Training Organisation for Social Care in England, be answered in writing in regard to the 48-hour rule of known as TOPSS (Training Organisation for the Personal Standing Orders. Members wishing to take up any Social Services). The current qualification is the Diploma subsequent action as a result of that at the January sitting, it in Social Work, which, from September 2003, has been is open to them to do so.

International Business School Limited — Money and staff secondments from Department Social workers professional qualifications —Organisations responsible International Business School —Departmental secondments : Announcement of Royal Assent : Procedural 482 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

Office then organised the Inquiry in line with the Orders of the Day requirements of the 1999 Act and the Inspector. The notice of Inquiry advised that proofs of evidence Personal Statement by the Minister for Local would be submitted by 17th April 2003. A pre-Inquiry Government and the Environment meeting was held in April 2003; the Inquiry itself would be held on 16th-18th June. In the period before the Inquiry, The President: We turn, then, to our Order Paper and submissions were made to the Department regarding the we have a personal statement from the Hon. Mrs Crowe, relationship between the Draft Plan and the Mount Murray Minister for Local Government and Environment. Commission of Inquiry on 16th June 2003. The Department, in its opening submission, advised the inspector of the matter The Minister for Local Government and the and invited comments, through the inspector, from those Environment (Mrs Crowe): Thank you, Mr President. parties attending the Inquiry and those parties that had made At the meeting of this Hon. Court in November I said I representations in respect of Mount Murray, as to whether would respond in full to the Question 19 of that meeting, to: (a) proceed with the Inquiry in line with the current asked by the Hon. Member for Douglas East. Since hearing timetable; (b) defer consideration of all representation the supplementary comments and the clarification then relating to Mount Murray until after the publication of the provided, I have had the opportunity to review Hansard for Report of the Commission of Inquiry; or (c) if persons so 21st October and the correspondence regarding the situation wish, to consider their representations, as currently time- referred to and I wish to make the following statement. tabled, but defer consideration of other representations until It would appear that the Hon. Member for East Douglas after the Report is published. is referring specifically to the answer I gave to her After discussion with those present, the inspector supplementary question at the October 2003 sitting of this decided that he would continue with the Inquiry, as Court relating to the reopening of the Public Inquiry into programmed, but would consider the appropriate course of the Draft Braddan Parish Plan. action in respect of Mount Murray and the Commission of Before I go any further, I feel it is important that this Inquiry’s Report at the end of the Inquiry. This he did and Hon. Court understands the context for that public inquiry indicated that he would close the Inquiry, save in respect of and the current position in respect of the draft plan and any further submissions made in respect of any comments inquiry. relating to references to comments of the Commission of The Braddan Parish Plan is the second of the new area Inquiry. plans being prepared under the provisions of Part 1 of the A programme was then set for any further Town and Country Planning Act. The procedures for the representations to be made and forwarded to the inspector preparation of an area plan are set out in schedule 1 to that for his consideration. Following the receipt of part 1 of the Act. In summary, this requires the Department to undertake Report of the Commission of Inquiry and further the preparation of a plan in a particular way, which includes representations in respect of that Report and its relationship ensuring that adequate preliminary publicity is given to to the Draft Braddan Plan, the Department decided that, in matters which it intends the plans should deal with, the the circumstances, the Inquiry should be reopened. This preparation of the draft plan, allowing a period for persons decision was relayed to the inspector and arrangements were to make objections or representation in respect of the draft made for this to take place on 8th December 2003. A pre- plan, the holding of an inquiry by a person appointed by Inquiry meeting was held on 6th November 2003. the Governor for that purpose, the publication of the report When you read the Hansard record of the October debate from that person. After considering that report, the you will see that I said: ‘I have a little difficulty in Department may adopt the plan with or without understanding the Question.’ I understood the Question to modifications. be about the independence of the inspector and, as I In the case where the Department proposes to adopt the explained, the inspector is not appointed by the Department, plan with modifications, there is an additional step requiring but appointed by the Governor. I now appreciate that the the Department to give publicity to those proposed supplementary question was about who decided whether or modifications and consider any further representations before adopting the plan. The plan is adopted by the not the Public Inquiry should re-open. This is a decision Department by Order and that Order is subject to the that was made by the Department; however, in trying to be approval of Tynwald. helpful, and answering the question on the day, what I said I would like to make the point that the above is a was incorrect. summary of the proceedings and is not intended to be This is a dilemma that a Minister always faces when exhaustive. If Members want to understand the full detail answering supplementary questions of which no advance of the procedures I would refer them to schedule 1 of the notice has been given. Naturally, I regret that I gave that 1999 Act. The Braddan Parish Plan has been prepared in answer to this Hon. Court. The answer was incorrect, but I accordance with the provisions of the 1999 Act. In summary, did not knowingly mislead this Hon. Court. I hope the the key stages have been: Issues and Options Report was explanation that I have now given, and my confirmation published in May 2001; the Draft Plan was published in that it is the responsibility of the Department to decide April 2002; a proposed modification document was whether or not the Inquiry should be opened, has put the published in February 2003; the Department considered the matter straight. responses to the Draft Plan in February 2003 and resolved I would, however, just like to add that, during the last that an inquiry should be held in accordance with the sitting of this Hon. Court, the Member for East Douglas, provisions of the Act. The Chief Secretary was asked to Chairman of the Water Authority, stated that public sector arrange for the appointment by the Governor of a person to water rates were subsidised. Now, I am sure the Chairman hold the Inquiry, the Crown Division of the Chief Secretary’s of the Water Authority knew that statement was not correct

Personal Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 483 T121 and I feel certain that she, too, was not knowingly misleading to the leasing of the Nunnery Mansion House to the Isle of this Court. I will not be seeking an apology. Man International Business School and the subsequent Thank you, Mr President. purchase of the Nunnery Estate by the Business School. Since I became Attorney General in 1998 I have had no The President: Item 5, Personal Statement by Mr professional dealings with any individual or corporate client Attorney. of my former firm. Part 7 of the Hon. Member’s Question includes a Mrs Cannell: Mr President. statement as to the accuracy of which the Hon. Member is personally responsible, in accordance with order 3.4 (3) of The President: On what, madam? the Standing Orders of Tynwald Court. The statement is that I felt able to advise the Department of Education Mrs Cannell: I wish to make some comments following concerning the taking of a lease and subsequent purchase the Statement. from the Nunnery Limited. The Hon. Member seeks to link that advice with my previous connection with the Nunnery The President: No, no comments on Statements. Item Limited and implies that the interests of the Department of 5, Personal Statement – Education were prejudiced as a result. I wish to make it clear that, when Isle of Man Mrs Cannell: Mr President. Point of order, sir. International Business School Limited took the lease of the Nunnery Mansion House, I personally took no part in Mr President: Yes. advising the Department of Education, no part in the negotiations and no part in the drafting of the lease. Mrs Cannell: Erskine May, sir, states, under ‘Personal Moreover, I would emphasise that I was not concerned with Statements’, that, if another Member is involved in the the subsequent purchase of the Nunnery Estate by Isle of Personal Statement, he is generally allowed to give his own Man International Business School Limited. A firm of view of the matter, and to say whether he accepts it or not. advocates acted for the purchaser in that transaction. The statement made by the Hon. Member as to my involvement Mr Delaney: Quite right. in these transactions is wholly inaccurate. Statements made in Tynwald by Hon. Members are not The President: I was reading from our Standing Orders amenable to the law. So important is the freedom of speech and that applies today – and debate that proceedings in Tynwald may not be impeached or questioned in any court. That is a principle of Mrs Cannell: But, Mr President, a Personal Statement fundamental importance which I wholly support and, of has involved another Member, sir, and the Minister has used course, any Hon. Member is entitled to ask a Question for the privilege of Personal Statement to answer a question. written answer to any Member of Tynwald on a public matter for which that Member has responsibility. The President: You will get your opportunity. Without in any way seeking to undermine the rights of Hon. Members, may I take this opportunity to emphasise that I am always willing to discuss with any Hon. Member any concerns he or she may have in relation to legal issues Personal Statement by the Attorney General and to give advice to the best of my ability. It would seem to me that, at least in the first instance, there is much to be The President: We will move on with the Order Paper. said for making informal contact by way of correspondence, Personal Statement, Item 5, Mr Attorney. e-mail, or a telephone call, rather than launching an inquiry by written questions and, particularly so, where imprecise The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. language is used in the questions, which can lead to At the sitting of Tynwald on 18th November 2003, the misunderstanding. Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, asked me a Question As it is, we have the claim and the denial. No doubt, at item 28 of the Question Paper, such Question to be answered in writing. many would counsel that that should be the end of it and I have circulated, for the benefit of Hon. Members, the that the Attorney General, like any other Member of Question raised by the Hon. Member for Onchan, together Tynwald, must expect to be subjected to scrutiny and with my answer. I would specifically refer to part 7 of the criticism. I accept that the Attorney has no immunity from Question, which asks me to say why I felt able to advise the such scrutiny and criticism, but it is, in my respectful Department of Education concerning the taking of a lease opinion, wholly unsatisfactory that, given the very special and subsequent purchase from the Nunnery Limited, if I nature of the office of Attorney General and the public duties was previously connected with the Nunnery Limited, or, if which attend that office, there should be any element of I did declare my connections, would I say to whom I had doubt in relation to the integrity of the Attorney General. made the declaration and on what date. The office of Attorney General is tarnished by the I am most grateful that you have allowed me the implications contained in part 7 of the Question from the opportunity to make this statement and thereby to give an Hon. Member for Onchan, and, again, by the Questions unqualified assurance to Hon. Members that I have not which appear at item 39 of the Question Paper for today’s advised the Department of Education, or, indeed, to the best sitting. I say that those implications are wholly untrue. The of my knowledge, any other person as Attorney General in office of Attorney General carries with it a tradition of circumstances where I have had a conflict of interest and fairness, impartiality and justice. The Attorney must never duty. I give that assurance more particularly with reference become politically partisan, nor be drawn into political

Personal Statement by the Minister for Local Government and the Environment Personal Statement by the Attorney General 484 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day controversy in a way that undermines the office. Members,’ which I have indicated he has been, ‘rising, (no Mr President, I am proud to hold the office of Attorney amendment or debate being allowed) such Motion shall, General for the Isle of Man and I intend to continue that with leave of Tynwald, take precedence over any other tradition for the public good of the Island. business.’ Hon. Members, that means that, from the Chair, I have to put to the Court, whether or not you wish to this Members: Hear, hear. matter to be debated at this present time. Hon. Members, it is in your hands, those in favour please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.

Matter of Urgent Public Importance A division was called and voting resulted as follows: Leave to move motion lost In the Keys – Ayes 9, Noes 14 The President: We turn, now, Hon. Members to Mr FOR AGAINST Singer, Hon. Member of Council. Mr Anderson Mr Cannan Mr Quine Mr Rodan Mr Singer: Mr President, I wish to move, under Mr Quayle Mr Rimington Standing Order 2.8, that the motion that is being circulated Mr Gill Mr Houghton in my name is debated as a matter of urgent public Mr Duggan Mr Henderson importance. Mrs Cannell Mr Cretney Mrs Hannan Mr Braidwood The motion reads: Mr Karran Mr Downie The Speaker Mr Shimmin ‘That Tynwald affirms the principle of democratic Mr Bell parliamentary control of the executive and therefore calls Mrs Craine upon the Government to comply with the decisions of Mr Corkill this Hon. Court and, in consequence, expects the Minister Mr Earnshaw for Local Government and the Environment to suspend Capt. Douglas the programme for Waste Disposal Charges rejected by The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails in the the Court in November 2003’ House of Keys, with 9 votes for, 14 votes against. and I would ask that all Members stand in support, Mr In the Council Ð Ayes 4, Noes 4 President. FOR AGAINST The President: Hon. Members, I will name four Mr Waft Mr Lowey Members as having stood, Mr Anderson, Mr Quayle, Mr Mr Singer Mrs Christian Quine and Mrs Cannell. In that case, Hon. Members, the Mr Kniveton Mr Gelling motion on a matter of urgent public importance will take Mr Delaney Mrs Crowe precedence and we will turn straight to it and I call on – The President: With 4 for and 4 against in the Council, Mr Corkill: On a point of order, Mr President – Hon. Members, the vote goes with the Keys. The motion, therefore, fails, so leave has not been given to the matter of The President: We need the leave of the House in which urgent public importance. to debate it. Chief Minister.

Mr Corkill: Just for clarification, Mr President, if I may have your advice on the matter. Local Authority Boundary Extensions The hon. mover of this motion has referred to the words: Statement by the Chief Minister ‘decision of this Court’. I am not aware that the Court has finally decided on the particular issue that the Hon. Member The President: That means, Hon. Members, that we refers to, because the Minister for Local Government, Mrs revert to our Order Paper and we have reached item 6 and I Crowe, has, in fact, asked for a combined vote on the subject call on the Chief Minister to move. to hand at next month’s sitting, so that would seem to me that the procedure has not been decisive at this stage, Mr The Chief Minister (Mr Corkill): I did have a President, and I wonder how we can have a debate before statement at item 3, Mr President, which we have not Tynwald has actually determined the subject. covered.

The President: I take the point which the Chief Minister The President: Yes, we have, we have missed it, sir, is making, but I also continue to read the same paragraph apologies. Statement at item 3, Chief Minister. and it does say: ‘to comply with the decision and, in consequence, expects the Minister to suspend the The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I sat programme’, the indication being that the programme is quietly because of the personal statements that went before. already under way. So I think I have to take it as the whole This statement is on behalf of Government. In paragraph having . . . Hon. Members have you all got the March 2003 this Hon. Court approved the Peel Boundary paragraph in front of you? (A Member: Just!) You have. Extension Order 2003 and further resolved and I quote: Hon. Members, Standing Order 2.8(2) says: ‘If a That the Council of Ministers be requested to consider the present Member, who has given notice, is supported by four other legislation, giving particular consideration to Section 6 of the Local

Upgrading Infrastructure at Jurby — Expenditure Approved Matter of Urgent Public Importance —Leave to move motion lost Local Authority Boundary Extensions —Statement by the Chief Minister Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 485 T121

Government Act 1985, and to the need, if any, along with any other and sharing experiences have also been seen to be the way proposals, to implement legislative changes to provide clear statutory forward since the strategy’s inception – a policy that has guidelines and procedures for the Department of Local Government served us well as we approach the review stage in our Drug and the Environment and for local authorities in relation to consideration of an application by a local authority for an alteration of its boundary, and Alcohol Strategies. This fully-integrated cross- especially at an inquiry, and to report to Tynwald by no later than departmental approach continues to work in trying to December˚2003. minimise drug and alcohol misuse through a co-ordinated combination of education, harm reduction, treatment and The Council of Ministers subsequently referred this issue support, together with measures to reduce the availability to the Department of Local Government and the of illegal drugs, and, simply put, it is a community response Environment for them to progress. That Department has to a community issue. Progress this past year has been made significant progress in addressing the issues required marked by several key factors: agencies achieving a higher by the resolution. profile, increased treatment, educational and community However, on further consideration of the matter, and initiatives, a number of successful criminal justice after receiving legal advice, it has determined that a number operations and the forging of close ties with the British- of matters require re-evaluating. Irish Council, the latter having helped us to place the Island’s Whilst I, naturally, regret not being in a position to report work on drug misuse in a wider global context. to this Hon. Court today, I hope that Hon. Members will The two-day international conference, held in the Island appreciate the need to allow additional time in this particular October 2002, was very successful on several counts. It instance, and, in apologising for not being able to report in provided an invaluable opportunity to bring together some terms of the March 2003 resolution, I do undertake to deliver of the Island’s and Europe’s top experts in their fields to the report to this Hon. Court as soon as possible, but, in any share experiences and provide insights into the work being event, no later than March 2004. carried out on the misuse of drug and alcohol. In addition, That is my statement, Mr President. the conference placed the Isle of Man’s achievements into a global context and I was delighted that the two-day event resulted in the Island being invited to join the European Schools Survey Project on Alcohol and Drugs, known as Drug and Alcohol Strategies ESSPAD. Report received The past 12 months have been extremely eventful; the emphasis has been on collaborative working. I just wish to 6. The Chief Minister to move: offer Hon. Members a brief summary of some of the key events. That the Government’s fourth progress report on the Isle Although in its infancy, our database collection system of Man 5 Year Drug and Alcohol Strategies be received. is proving a valuable resource. Eighteen agencies now contribute to the database, which aims to provide accurate, The President: We turn, then, Hon. Members, to item but can I emphasise, anonymous information on the 6 and I call on the Chief Minister to move. prevalence and incidence of drug and alcohol misuse in the Island. And, as the database develops, it will serve to provide Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. vital information with which to formulate future action plans Hon. Members, I am pleased today to present to you on the Island. this latest progress report on our five-year Drug and Alcohol In the area of education and prevention, the past year Strategy Programme. This is the fourth progress report in has seen continued curriculum support to primary, secondary respect of the Island’s Drug Strategy, and the third in respect and higher education establishments in the Island, with the of alcohol, and, as Chairman of the Drug and Alcohol Drug and Alcohol Education Liaison Officer working Strategy Committee, I am pleased to confirm that the word closely with the Drug and Alcohol Co-ordinator’s office, ‘progress’ is very much the theme of my speech to you today, Isle of Man Constabulary and Live Education Centre, the Hon. Members. latter having recently updated its teaching resources, The completion of an external validation report of our supporting diverse young peoples and parents’ groups while strategies, just after this reporting year, marked a positive also working with primary and secondary schoolchildren. commendation of the work which has taken place since their Health promotion continues to launch a series of information inception. As a result, we are pushing forward with a major and awareness campaigns, promoted principally through the review next year in updating our existing strategies, which local press and radio. The Department has also delivered will include widespread consultation throughout the drug-awareness training to over 220 individuals and plays community. an active role in Drug and Alcohol Misuse in the Workplace While recognising that many challenges remain, Training Programmes. progress has been significant and continues to be made to The Drug and Alcohol team had a change of manager reduce the harm that can be caused through the misuse of during the year and also relocated to new premises. Three drugs and alcohol. Progress is due in no small part to the key appointments were made, a staff-grade doctor, a tireless work of so many individuals and organisations, both probation officer and a nurse. They continue to provide a statutory and non-statutory, who have wholeheartedly full range of treatment and support services, both to the embraced one of the strategy’s core principles, namely inter- community and the Isle of Man Prison, including guidance agency co-operation. and assistance for prisoners returning to the community. On behalf of the Drug and Alcohol Strategy Committee In the middle of 2002, there was a change of director at I should also like to express gratitude to the local media for the Alcohol Advisory Service, which relocated earlier this their continued support in this area. Exchanging information year. The service has continued to provide counselling and

Local Authority Boundary Extensions — Statement by the Chief Minister Drug and Alcohol Strategies —Report received 486 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day support, in addition to actively participating in local Last year, when we had the third Drug and Alcohol awareness campaigns, and also work with the Isle of Man Strategy Report, I raised some reservations about it, on the Prison. basis that I maintain today, and those basically are that this DASH, the Drug Advice Service and Helpline, went full is a politically-driven document. You might say, ‘well, every time in July 2002. It now provides a 24-hour-a-day, seven- document is,’ and that is fine. But at least most other day-a-week telephone service, plus the availability of a documents that come before this Court are overt in that is confidential consultation service at its Douglas premises. what they are about. They are not about glossing it up on The Isle of Man Constabulary Drugs Squad, which had the pretext or premise that it is for some other purpose. a change of leadership during the past year, has been Now I do not say that as a criticism, but as an instrumental in seizures of significant quantities of observation. Last year we had a very glossy report, with controlled drugs and has collaborated on a number of some very becoming photographs of the Chief Minister and intelligence operations, both locally, and in partnership with Mrs Hannan and other Members and it was very good, and police forces in the UK. the format was very slick and it told us all the things and it In addition, two officers are now part of our community ticked off all the things that had been set out to be achieved safety unit. and subsequently have been achieved. The Isle of Man Constabulary Central Alcohol Unit has The Report that we have today before us is altogether been working closely with a broad range of agencies, more bland and sober and, basically, half of it is just lifting particularly the Island’s licensing trade. The unit carried other people’s work and claiming it as its own. out a licensing environment survey and is providing input to an accredited education package for licensees. Mr Houghton: Yes, that’s right. If I can refer to the Isle of Man Customs and Excise, they continue to work closely with the Isle of Man Mr Gill: So that gives it a certain value, and a certain Constabulary and they have made significant contributions value only. to anti-money laundering, education and training initiatives. I think, in the Chief Minister’s introduction, he made a The Isle of Man Probation Service continues to provide few telling observations, when he welcomed the media support for those on probation or under supervision orders support that the drugs strategy had received – and that is on suspended sentences relating to drug and alcohol entirely understandable – but I also think it is very telling. offences. In addition, a probation officer was appointed to That is really one of the purposes: it is to be seen to be the drug and alcohol team in August 2002. doing something, and almost to be seen to do anything is In the Isle of Man Prison, there has been the introduction better than nothing, and, if it is glossy, well, so much the of a Prison Drug Strategy Group and the random and target better. drug-testing programmes continue apace in efforts to Again, that was reinforced with the mention of the address drug problems at the prison. British-Irish Council and all the recognition that the Isle of These, Hon. Members, are really a snapshot of the Man has received in that forum. initiatives and events that have contributed to making the Again, I am sure we would all welcome anything which past 12 months. Progress has been made – as I said earlier – reflects well on the Isle of Man, but let us have it on face but I would emphasise that we cannot and will not in any value, not on the back of something that is pretending to be way be complacent. different. To that end, 2004 will be a pivotal year, as we initiate a So, I am afraid, on the basis that this is really another in comprehensive review and consultation exercise to take the the series of annual self justifications, my reservations do strategies forward for the next five years. In this, the Island continue. I do not think we actually need the Drug and is fortunate that the external validation we initiated has Alcohol Strategy, when one bears in mind that all the money produced some extremely positive feedback, indicating that, in the main, our strategies are robust, focused and relevant – it is a substantial amount and we have not got any reference to the Manx community. to the amount that Government is spending on its strategies We obviously face many challenges, but I am confident and its staff – but all those amounts that are spent on that that, with the support of Hon. Members, and all those could, arguably, be spent on service provision. (Mr working in the field of drug misuse, we can achieve some Henderson: Hear, hear.) I happen to know that many of positive results to safeguard our Island and especially its my colleagues in social care agencies, that the Minister has young people. It is the young people who are most quite rightly given credit to their work over not just the last vulnerable from the potential harm of drug and alcohol year, would actually share that view. misuse. That is a matter of judgement and I will have to bow to I hope Members will join with me in receiving this the Chief Minister’s judgement that he feels that this is Annual Report, as we anticipate another year of substantial appropriate – and the previous Chief Minister did. So I do progress towards minimising the harm caused by drug and accept that boils down to opinion; I accept the principle of alcohol misuse in the Isle of Man. it, but the practice of it, I am afraid, is doing as much to get Mr President, I beg to move the motion in my name. in the way as it is to support the good work that the Chief Minister – and I am sure everybody in this Court would The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Rodan. agree – does need to be done. But I do have those reservations. I did not vote against Mr Rodan: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. the Report last year, but I think, since we are just getting more of the same, with the promise of more yet to come, it The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. is time to put a marker on it. I, for one, feel that this is not in itself the way that the Chief Minister could best be allocating Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. resources, and I am afraid, unless I hear something very

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 487 T121 compelling, I will have to vote against it. suffering from a heart attack, a patient suffering from a broken leg, a patient suffering from breathing difficulties, The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr a young mum in labour, and other various physical ailments, Henderson all being taken care of in the same area. Any specialist will tell you that it is impossible. You need to have your areas Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Vainstyr Eaghtyrane. specialised and, unfortunately, that is not what we have got We have had many such debates so far, as indicated by here at the minute. the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gill, and I have I am sure the Health Minister is going to come back and contributed to them time and time again. I keep highlighting tell us that there are plans afoot, but the point is it is not the point, especially with alcohol, as an ex-healthcare recognised in this Report and it should be, because the basis professional myself for nearly 20 years, and having nursed of this strategy working, not only is it education promotion, folk with alcohol and drug-related problems, that I have it is also the treatment and facilities being available to folk got a little bit of knowledge on the subject. who are wanting to try and help themselves, and that I have stood here and said, and I will say it again, that currently is not happening as well as it could be. alcohol is probably one of the most addictive drugs that I am not directing any criticisms on the healthcare you can possibly ever come across. (Mrs Craine: Hear, professionals involved in the field because I know they work hear.) And it also happens to be totally legal, totally very hard (A Member: Hear, hear.) – super hard, in fact – accessible and easily accessible, and totally affordable, and and often put their life at risk in the process of the operations it is part of our culture, our way of life. The temptation for they are carrying out, so I have got no problem with that. those to stray into an alcohol or drug-related life is strong, What we need to do is hear the Ard-shirveishagh come and the peer pressure is also strong, especially in the younger back and recognise that we need things to change and we elements of our community. need to hear that resources are going to be turned round Far be it for me to be a killjoy; everyone should be able and focused on service delivery. As I say, it is fine for to enjoy a sociable drink and so on, but I am afraid the education and all the rest of it, but at the end of the day, if access, availability and the current culture gives great and we have got somebody suffering from a substance-abuse considerable cause for concern, especially to the younger problem, who wants to be helped, what have we got on elements of our community who are drawn into this and offer for that person? suddenly find themselves in the downward spiral of The Report is almost totally silent; it talks about the requiring to have drinks on a regular basis, or, indeed, voluntary groups at night time who can take phone calls becoming addicted, because, unfortunately, sufferers of and things, but, at the end of the day, if somebody wants alcohol addiction do not know that they are becoming treatment, they want help, they want specialist counselling addicted and will deny it to the nth degree, which makes it and all the things that should be in place, then they are sadly very, very difficult to treat or help somebody in that lacking. condition. Many years ago we used to operate an alcohol unit within Now, having illustrated that point, we have heard the the Mental Health Service, run by specialists dedicated to Chief Minister outline the main points of this Report, much that unit, and that worked exceptionally well. In fact, it had of which I support. There has been a lot of hard work gone one of the best success rates in the Isle of Man at the time in, and there has been a lot of inter-agency working, which when that was functioning, and that was excellent. I think is good because I, for one, have been crying out for inter- that is what we need to be returning to here; we need to be agency working to address various issues, such as drug and looking at the actual service point to folk who need help. alcohol problems. It is not just a case of educating children, it is a point of what help is available and making sure – through GP But we have heard about the enforcement side of things services and outreach teams and all the rest of the teams and the successes there and we have heard about the public that are working in the community, and all the organisations health promotion, the media coverage and the work that and groups mentioned in this document – they know what has gone on in schools in promoting an awareness of the is available and can refer people to the correct agencies and dangers of substance misuse. get the proper specialised help that they require to overcome Now that is all very well and good and that is part of the these problems. process, but, unfortunately, the Report is virtually silent on As indicated, they are some of the most difficult an element that should be in there, and it is one of the problems to overcome. I cannot think of anything more foundation elements, really, that would supply a key to the difficult to overcome than if you have an alcohol-related success of this strategy and that is the fact that we have got problem, and we need those services in line to be running no separate drug or alcohol rehabilitation treatment unit in parallel with what has been trotted out in this Report. the Isle of Man. (A Member: Hear, hear.) There is not a The comments from the Hon. Member, Mr Gill, are specialised unit to take care of folk suffering from drug absolutely correct, in what he is saying; we are seeing the addiction, drug problems, alcohol addiction, alcohol policy being evolved, but there is nothing – well, there are problems. things on the ground, but we need to see more things on the Currently we have one adult mental health admission ground from the service delivery point of view to address unit to cover the entire Island, which takes every admission the very problems that this document is highlighting. of all categories of mental health, or folk suffering from I hope the Ard-shirveishagh can come back and give us mental health problems, from depression, anxiety, psychoses those assurances. and then also they have to admit folk who are suffering from drink-related problems and drug-related problems. The President: Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Quine. I suppose it is a bit like an emergency ward at the new hospital, should one exist, where they treat, say, a patient Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I have no doubt

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received 488 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day that there is a great deal of hard work and good work being I rise to support the Drug and Alcohol Strategy and carried out in relation to this important area. recognise the huge amount of work that has taken place But, having read this Report, I am still concerned that it over the last number of years, in fact. is somewhat academic and superficial. We have got a great In relation to the Strategy, which I welcome, and the deal of information, but you have to question yourself as to opportunity to comment upon it, I would, firstly, like to what value that is in real life terms. make reference to the absence of sniffer dogs at the airport Saying that, I fully accept that you have to build up and seaports. Certainly, in the time that I have been databases and you have got to have some sort of a line of travelling, over the years, I do not think I have ever seen a comparison, but I do not see what we have got here – perhaps sniffer dog at either the airport or the seaports. I feel that more particularly how it is presented here – as allowing for much could be done to stem the flow of drugs into the Island that quantitative or qualitative measurement. by increased usage of such sniffer dogs and I hope that that Now, last year – I am fairly sure it was last year – I might be something that could be looked at to resolve that raised, at the time of this Report, the question of at least situation. providing us with one area of comparative statistics, which I also believe there is an inconsistency in dealing with should be readily available and would be but one indicator the scrutiny and scanning of baggage belonging to of whether or not we are making progress. That related to passengers when travelling to and from the Island. Relating, enforcement. I asked for year-on-year figures dealing with in fact, to the airport, I am aware that baggage seems to be raids, seizures, units making those raids and seizures, the checked at the local airport for passengers departing from make-up of those seizures, the arrests and, again, who was the Island and, at the UK or Irish airport, baggage is also making these arrests, rising out of those arrests the number scanned for passengers travelling to the Island. So the of persons charged, the number of persons convicted, and airports seem to be well served in the way that they are the level of sentencing, which is equally important. looking at the matters, but, in terms of the seaports, my And I still find nothing in this Report which helps me understanding is that passengers leaving the Island have or points me to that data at all. The nearest we have got is at their baggage checked, but what happens to the baggage the top of page 22, which is criminal justice sub-sample when passengers at a UK or Irish port are departing there community safety – that is about the nearest we come to for the Isle of Man? anything of that nature, and the only line of comparison dates to a drug arrest referrals scheme, and that is simple Mr Braidwood: Ten per cent is checked. giving a figure out of the total figures since September 2000. So I remain concerned about whether we are really going Mr Quine: Ten per cent is checked; well what about to the heart of this matter or whether, as I said, the other 90 per cent, I hear the Minister for Home Affairs notwithstanding some good work – a lot of good work has mention? Can a reappraisal be done to look at the security been done – a lot of this is simply motion, activity perhaps, arrangements for incoming people to the Isle of Man. Surely, but whether it is getting us anywhere, in hard terms, I have we have a greater obligation to look at the people coming severe reservations, and I think I would appeal to the Chief to the Island and their baggage, rather than checking the Minister to – through his committee – go back and see if people going out from the Island. I hardly think it seems a we cannot at least recast the information, and at least give realistic chance that people will be exporting drugs from us some year-on-year comparison, so that we have one the Isle of Man; rather than they are more likely to be means of achieving a measurement. bringing them in. It will not be the whole picture, I accept that, but I know So I would hope that a reappraisal could be done an from my own experience that you can get a very good early opportunity to look at the security arrangements for indicator of the situation on the ground, if you do have the incoming passengers to the Island. information of the nature that I mentioned. Drugs, as we all know, are an insidious threat to the The other matter which I am not quite clear on is, of quality of life on the Isle of Man that we are privileged to course, whether or not it is practice here for control purchase enjoy, and we obviously have to do all in our power to halt of drugs to see what movement there is in the price of drugs the prevalence or increase in drugs. from time to time. That is probably the best indicator of the As I understand it, anybody caught with drugs on real situation, whether or not there is significant movement, licensed premises can be prohibited from such premises for and over what period of time, in relation to the control a period of 12 months. Might I suggest that this policy could purchase of some of these drugs. be usefully reconsidered, as it is imperative to remove from But, one way or another, I think we need to move on on-licensed premises the possibility of drug dealing and beyond what we have got here, into a way of presenting usage. and measuring the work that is being done in a more I feel, quite strongly, that, if we can stem the dealing or productive form than what we have before us here. I do not usage of drugs in on-licensed premises, then we have a wish to sound destructive; I am simply asking that we add realistic and a great chance to eradicate and control the on, that we build on what we have got here. incidence of drug usage on the Island. If everybody that It is not the first time I have raised it – it was raised last has been involved in drugs, supply or usage, were banned year – but, quite clearly, they chose to ignore me and I am indefinitely from on-licensed premises then this would be not one to be ignored. a huge step forward in stopping the problem in its tracks. Thank you very much, Mr President. Finally, and turning to sentencing by the courts, might I suggest that it would be an opportune time, hopefully, for The President: Hon. Member for Middle. those responsible to review the punishments available to the courts, as I feel the public would welcome draconian Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. heavy punishments that would send out a strong message

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 489 T121 to suppliers and users on the Isle of Man that we will do all Mr Henderson: That was ten years ago. in our power to bring people to justice and punish them appropriately. (Interjections) Mrs Hannan: But it cannot happen without moving Thank you, Mr President. other people out, and that is what we are looking for, that is the strategy within the Department, to move people about, The President: Hon. Member for Peel. to change people round, so that Ard Aalin can become an in-patient detoxification rehabilitation unit, but we cannot Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. do that without moving other people on, and we are working The main reason I would like to speak to this particular on that at the moment, and I am sure the Minister will go Report is that, under the ‘Targets Met’, which is on page more into that. 10, perhaps three-quarters of the way down: But one of the other things that I think people tend to overlook is at the top of that page. It relates to what is focus on issues raised by the introduction of Children and Young happening in the world and it relates to opium cultivation Persons Strategy, which should refer to the needs of young substance- in Afghanistan since the fall of the Taleban, and this is not misusers. just in Afghanistan, but it is in loads of other countries. They cannot get . . . because of the price of coffee and I have no idea what that actually means, I would like to other staple crops in their country, they receive so little for ask the Chief Minister to what part of the Children and that crop, they then turn to other crops which bring in more Young Persons Strategy does this refer? When was the money, and this is why Afghanistan has turned back to Children and Young Persons Strategy reported to Tynwald, opium cultivation. This has happened in Colombia and in and what action is being taken on the Children and Young other countries, so this is still going to relate to the problems Persons Strategy? Because I believe that . . . I think some I that we have in the future, because it is going to be more have mentioned, already, people who are using and abusing readily available, and we all know that it tends to be charged drugs and alcohol already, and it is very difficult to treat more for in the Isle of Man than in other places. people with drug and alcohol abuse. If they are addicted to But it is the globalisation of trade which has caused some these substances; you can only treat them or help them if of these problems in these areas, and what we have got to they want to be helped. do is to try pay a proper amount for these other crops that So that is one of the issues that I feel should be addressed are grown in these other countries and the countries that with some urgency: finding out from young people why are growing opium, and put pressure on them to grow crops they turn to these substances. Presumably, it helps them to that the world needs, as opposed to growing lots of opium. get over some of the great difficulties that they do have. I do not see that the strategy is going to solve that But, saying that, I do believe that these are issues which particular problem, but some of the other problems that have we should be addressing. It is all very well to have a number been raised I think could be looked at. But I think we will of agencies helping and assisting – which is good to see – still find that people turn to substances such as this for other but unless we can actually get some more understanding of reasons, because of the difficulties that they have in life, why people turn to drugs and alcohol, why they become and without us trying to address some of those issues, then addicted to these substances, any more than other people I believe we are going to continue having people who are become addicted to substances, it is something which I addicted and the earlier they become addicted, the more believe that we should try to focus on within an organisation difficult it is for them to get off it again. such as this – which seems to be quite high-powered – looking at these very difficult issues. The President: Hon. Member of Council, On page 40 is a report from the strategy talk, where it Mrs Christian. says that: Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I think it has Last year the unit saw 500 referrals, 60 per cent of whom were misusing alcohol . been interesting, in terms of the contribution to the debate, that we started off with the Hon. Member for Rushen, who It says that progress is being made, but I believe we said this is political. Indeed, Mr President, it is very political. need to do an awful lot more to try to understand why people It was motivated by the view of this Hon. Court some years do turn to alcohol, and try to block that, so that people are ago that drug and alcohol issues were a serious problem, a not turning to alcohol and drugs. I really feel that is political problem, if you like, that needed to be tackled in a something that we should be addressing at this particular way which was given some priority. stage in a strategy such as this. Now, whether or not that priority is still prevalent, today Now, if I turn to page 43, where it says: we have an opportunity to debate that and the Hon. Member has himself indicated that, perhaps, it should not have the Our key objectives are . . . priority that it has been given, but I do think that we need to recognise, particularly in my Department, that we have — and this is just from a comment made by the Member for many competing areas of concern, not least of which is this Douglas North — it says, again, three-quarters of the way drug and alcohol and addictions area. down the page: The issues of the knock-on effects of inappropriate use of drugs and alcohol, through families, through Social Additional staff on Ard Aalin Unit in the development of an in-patient Services requirements and so on, are not inconsiderable and, detoxification and rehabilitation unit to that extent, I think one can see very good reasons for pursuing this joined-up approach to drugs and alcohol. is one of the objectives, presumably, for the next year or so — Another thing that the strategy highlights is that much of

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received 490 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day this work was going on as ‘service delivery’, in the words him, too, on that, Mr President, as I do with the struggles of the Hon. Member, but, perhaps, not in the most effective that our Department has to deliver all the care that is way because there was not sufficient cross-departmental required, but I do take objection to the way in which he has reference to make sure that we were all pushing forward on phrased his views, indicating that this Department does not a united front and so I think that the bringing together of care. I would object to that most strongly. We have the Departments in relation to this strategy has been useful. considerable problems in relation to where the resources That is not to say that all of us agree entirely with would go, but, in terms of this annual Report, Mr President, everything that happens within it and I do support the view I think it is critical that we develop the database and develop that we need to be delivering services to those people who ways of analysing the effectiveness or otherwise of this have a problem, as much as we need to be dealing with the strategy and that is ongoing. If, indeed, it is felt that it is not promotional and educational aspects of it. I would not like delivering results, then this Hon. Court has it in its power people to think though that having read this report that to decide that resources go elsewhere, but I do think that it nothing is happening in that area. I think that would be to embraces those areas of our community life which have minimise and perhaps belittle all the work that is going on tremendous knock-on effects for a fairly wide cross-section in that area with teams that have been working at less than of our community and, to that extent, we should be doing full strength, but doing their darnedest to deliver services what we can on a united front across the Departments to to those people who have problems and who need the ensure that we deal with the care of those people who have support in this area. a problem and do our utmost to prevent other people falling This report does indicate that as far as the drug and into the same difficulties. alcohol team is concerned, there has been a strengthening of that multi-disciplinary team this year, which will, one The President: Hon. Member for Douglas West, presumes, have a knock-on effect to the effectiveness of Mr Shimmin. the delivery of the services and so I do think we should not minimise that and give recognition to those who are working Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. in this area to help – Some Hon. Members will recall that, when I first entered this Chamber, it was on the background of education and Mr Karran: We do. young people. I would like to congratulate the former Chief Minister, the Member of Council, Mr Gelling, for, during Mrs Christian: – people who have these addiction his time as Chief Minister, he did put this higher up the problems. political spectrum and actually put a very large working With regard to even this strategy and the way it is moving party or team of people together under his stewardship, forward, there is no doubt that all of us struggle with whether which I believe is why it has achieved the recognition that or not this is the right area in which to place resource, but, it has so far. given that we have accepted that there should be a continuing What we have today is a Report. If we did not have a strategy, there are plans to put more resources into it. This drug and alcohol strategy there would be pressure on this includes the requirement to have a dedicated rehabilitation Court to bring it in. It is there with a large number of and detoxification unit, which has been referred to, and, professionals now working more closely than they were though it may not have specific mention in here, except previously, and that is to be commended. It is a Report. We that the Hon. Member, Mrs Hannan, for Peel, has referred can read reports. We know what most of them will say. It is to page 43 and the proposal to make the Ard Aalin unit a delivery which is important. We are now in the phase of detoxification and rehabilitation unit, it has been mentioned more delivery of service, rather than talking about it and in the Government’s capital programme. So it has been put getting people to talk to each other. So I commend the former before Hon. Members before today and should be within Chief Minister and the current Chief Minister for their sort of general awareness, especially as there have maintaining a profile of this and if it was not there, we would also been questions on the matter and those questions have have to invent it. What we have invented is something which been answered in this forum, to say that ‘Yes, this is our will never be taken away. I do not believe, politically, we hope and intention, but like every other area of Government would ever remove from our list of priorities in Government service delivery, it has to be programmed in and it is in the some strategy to deal with drug and alcohol for the people programme and will come along.’ of the Island. Indeed, if anything, it will continue to expand, At the same time it has been pointed out by my with the tobacco and other areas. Therefore, we have an departmental colleague that, in order to deliver this, we have expectation from Members that there will be officers of had to make certain other moves which are not popular in Government working in this field. certain areas, with certain Members, who are looking for Predominantly, Mr President, I am brought to my feet this detoxification unit, but in our attempts to get it and by the comments of the member for Middle, Mr Quayle, moving other people around, we have had criticism for that when he referred to the searching of baggage and the police as well, Mr President. sniffer dogs. I would urge him and other Hon. Members, who continue to use these arguments about drug Mr Karran: Because you would not talk to the relatives! enforcement being an issue of sniffer dogs at the airport and at the boats, to actually go and talk to the people dealing Mrs Christian: Indeed, the Hon. Member who started in the field of drug enforcement and drug arrivals into the off the debate, in fairness to him, is now saying that this is Island. Yes, certainly sniffer dogs do have a purpose and not a priority, in his view, and one can see from his they continue to have a purpose at the ports as they arrive comments in recent press coverage, that he has a particular on the Island. They are, indeed, involved in servicing certain priority in his view in his area. I would sympathise with other areas, where information and packages are brought to

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 491 T121 the Island. However, let us not kid ourselves, the days of place at the moment, so we hope for greater things in the the long-haired hippie coming off the boat carrying a bit of future. cannabis are long gone. Thank you, Mr President. The reality is that we now live in a very sophisticated drug world and the drug dealers who are importing the drugs The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. that are a scourge on our society are not bringing them in, in hand baggage on the boat; there is a relatively small Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I am quite interested in some quantity of fairly inexperienced people do it in that way. of the points. The main danger is the sophisticated ways that drugs are I think Mr Gill, the Member for Rushen, had a very good imported to the United Kingdom. Those same mechanisms point about the issue of gloss as far as this Report is are now used to bring it to the Isle of Man. We are talking concerned. I think, like this whole item, drugs are the about large containers. We are talking about drugs embedded modern disease of society. Gloss is the disease of the Council inside areas that will not be detectable by a sniffer dog. of Ministers, as far as their problem is concerned, and I just Certainly, as a member of the Tourism Department, I would hope that he does not end up going down the road of the urge a little bit of caution from going down the road of other modern diseases, of what has to happen to new having every vehicle, bag and person searched on arrival Members, as far as having to go along with the spin, as far on the Isle of Man, because we already have to comply as so much that happens in this Hon. Court. with fairly stringent security measures since 11th September. So, whilst I would have a lot of empathy, as far as the There is an awareness that information given to the Hon. Member for Rushen is concerned, as far as the gloss police through their sources and through spot checks at the side of the Report, I think that it needs to be said that the ports, does collect some drug dealing. However, what we Ard-shirveishagh should be praised in the fact that we are are really talking about is the sophistication and, unless we doing this now. It is just a great shame, Eaghtyrane, that become a bit more sophisticated in our arguments, then I when the likes of I raised the issue back in the mid 1980s, believe we will be missing the point. So, yes, they have a to the usual amount of abuse that I generally get to raising role, but let us not kid ourselves that they are the solution. the topical issues today, that it was a shame that, because of They are one small part of it and to talk to the police and the way our system of Government, that we were not able those dealing with enforcement we, maybe, understand a to get in there, when we should have got in there, to nip the bit more about the sophistication, sir. problem in the bud then. I would say, as far as the Council of Ministers’ Report The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Waft. is concerned, I think that we have to do whatever can be done to help society. I think that, just like when one raised Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. the issue of the drugs problem back in the mid 1980s to the The whole point of the Chief Minister taking on board usual amount of abuse, I would like to raise the issue that these drug and alcohol strategies of the Isle of Man was we must not allow arms, which are a new cancer that are because it does cross borders and it does include such people going to affect our society if we do not start being proactive as Education, and Health and Social Services, Home Affairs, instead of reactive, and so if we end up with a situation bringing them closer together in a unified aim. There are with drugs and arms together, then society is going to be problems with that, however. even a further loser. With regard to the drug and alcohol detoxification units, So, I think that whilst some Members might marginalise we have had them in the past and then they become the Member for Middle, as far as his things about drug dogs unpopular, and then they move their place to somewhere and the other issues, they are an issue. They should be a else, and we have had an alcohol unit, which was changed, priority as far as the Island is concerned. In my opinion, as and we had a security unit, which was changed over a person who has had not so much dealings with people somewhere else. We had these various units springing up with drugs in recent years, but when it first was raised in from time to time and they seem to be a be-all and end-all this Court, did quite a lot with the police over the subject, for two or three years and then people’s views change, and the first priority, I believe, that Tynwald should be after is everything is changed around once more, and it is a very stopping it coming into the place. The second priority has costly exercise. With regard to the Member for Middle, to be education in society for our children so that we do not wondering what happened to the dogs. Page 34 it says, allow a situation where it becomes ‘hip’ for drugs and all this and to be smart and, third, I have to say that the issues The use of passive drug dogs at the Island s airport . . . of what the Member for Doolish twoaie, Mr Henderson, brought up about the facilities. so they must be all asleep, Martin, (Laughter) at the top of The facilities are sadly lacking in our community, but page 34! the danger we have in our society in being so small, is I see, in one paragraph in the whole Report, it refers to sometimes we try to produce facilities that we do not have smoking and I hope the Chief Minister will be including the population size to justify and so what we end up with, is that in future Reports – and hope springs eternal. political compromises, like we did with Cummal Shee, and I would specifically point out that this Report is mainly we have seen what a sad and total mess that the people statistical and, to be fair, the team has only been in being have had to suffer and the taxpayer has had to suffer for two and a half years, so these statistics are important as financially, because of political compromises, of trying to a database from which we can launch this strategy and I do something. think, from the specialist advice that you have brought in So, I would rather see the Chief Minister not putting now – and I see that they are all in different places, and that into some sort of half-measure facility and not getting it is a problem as well – I think you have some key people in right, but use facilities maybe off-Island in order to address

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received 492 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day the issues, as far as this is concerned. If we cannot justify through, in my opinion, as far as alcohol is concerned, funding and staffing it properly, we do not want a political because we make the law to protect the weak and I believe, compromise. in recent years, over alcohol that we have not been making I would just like to ask the Ard-shirveishagh – and we laws to protect the weak and vulnerable within our society. have heard the Hon. Member for North Douglas about the problems that we have with the alcohol in our society – A Member: Hear, hear. will he review the issue of the flexible licensing hours? I think that, if we want to help alcohol abuse on this Island The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mrs Craine. and the people who have an alcohol problem, let us change the law. It is absolutely wicked that, if you have got an Mrs Craine: Thank you, Mr President. alcohol problem and you go down any of the supermarkets, I would just like to make a few comments on the strategy you have got to walk down a row of alcohol or whatever, and, in particular, on the alcohol side of the problem that wanting to jump out and want you to drink it. It is all right we are facing in the Island today, because, undoubtedly to for us, we have not got the problem, but if you have the me, whilst the drug problem exists, alcohol remains the problem . . . and so I do feel that this Court needs to stop acceptable drug and is the more readily accessible drug and playing both sides against the middle over the alcohol it is time we realised that that is where the basis of our problem. We create the alcohol problem by the way we have problem lies. our legislation. I agree that it is a multi-departmental issue and, only As I tried to move several years ago, I believe that all last night, I was at a meeting where we were discussing off-licences should be purely off-licences. There should be development plans for an area and within those development a moratorium, as far as off-licences are concerned, to allow plans was a community area to include a pub. Now, where for any ingoing or whatever that is being bought and we we were talking, in question, already has several pubs and should phase off-licences out that are not purely an off- I do not think that the Island is in a situation that we need to licence and any supermarket that has an off-licence, they be issuing any more licences. should have to have a separate entrance within the store for Going on from that, I would endorse the comments of alcohol. I think, if he did that, he would do something the member for Onchan, Mr Karran, because I have yet to constructive, as far as trying to help the weaker members be convinced about the flexible licensing hours (A Member: of our society is concerned, and also trying to get things Hear, hear.) that exist. I do not see the evidence for extended that this Hon. Court supported with my implementation of licensing hours and I do think that that is a matter that should giving the police the power to take alcohol off children in be considered for review. With everybody there is, public places. Maybe, getting things like that to be undoubtedly, in this Court, I should not think one person addressed, as well, if he wants to try and sort out the alcohol who has not attempted to under-age drink, but in those days, problem. I think the problem we have today, with the Report Mr President, it was generally half a shandy that you would is, we are reacting, instead of being proactive over this issue. start off on. I am only sorry that the then Minister or Chairman of the Now, our children are being misled and misguided into Health Services Board was so negative when I was raising thinking that these attractive bottles with raspberries and the issue of registered drug addicts in this Island 15 odd peaches on the front have very low alcohol content. In fact, years ago. alcopops do not have a low content of alcohol, (Mrs Crowe: So I would just, finally, say on the Report, I do feel that Absolutely.) and I would prefer to see them banned off the the Report has one thing that concerns me greatly and that Isle of Man altogether, (A Member: Hear, hear.) because it is they are all experts, they have all got a meal ticket, and is totally deceitful to disguise alcohol in such a manner. the problem is you have got to have lay input. That is no attack on the individuals, or the professionals in that thing. Mrs Crowe: It is true. It is like Social Services, it is like the hospital, the worst thing that ever happened was to get rid of the Hospital Mrs Craine: I have, from my experience dealing with Administration Committee and the worst thing that we never young people, come across occasions where I have found managed to get implemented, in my opinion, was the likes that the supply of alcohol is all too easy. I am sure, in each of Social Services. What we need, as far as the drug area, we have found that there are unscrupulous members situation, is to make sure we have got a cross-section of in our society who will sell alcohol to members of our people who are interested in the issue of drugs, that have community who are under age and I believe that they need no worries about losing their jobs, their promotion chances to be dealt with more severely when those matters come to or whatever, that can actually be there to oversee what is court. I also do think that there is an issue and I have heard happening. and I have repeated before about agencies, such as taxi As far as the Report is concerned, I am happy to support drivers, receiving phone calls to go and purchase alcohol the Report being received. I have to say that I agree with from off-licences and then they make the purchase, deliver the fact – whether it needs to be so flash has to be it to the house and the child will come to the door, because questionable, as far as that is concerned. That does not deter the parents are out, and say, the value or the importance of the subject, as far as that is ‘Oh, father is just in the shower. He has just given me concerned, but what does concern me is that we could do this money to pay you for the alcohol. Here it is. It is all with more lay input, putting some sort of audit on the likes right, he has told me to take it from you.’ of what is actually happening and what we are actually Now, those are issues that are happening and really have reading about in this Report. I do hope that the Ard- got to be addressed. I do think, too – again in conjunction shirveishagh will come up with a legislative package to start with Mr Karran – that we need to take away this sexiness curtailing some of the issues that we have allowed to go about alcohol. It is not cool to go out and vomit down

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 493 T121 yourself, or in a cab, or in the street after having too much got to try and wean people off it and show them a different alcohol on a Friday or Saturday night, and we have got to way.’ take away this image of it being acceptable to get plastered The whole subject, though, is, as different Members have out of your mind through drink. It is not and the problem is, said in different ways, riddled with hypocrisy, in that, as as my Friend here says, ‘education,’ but the education does we said, the child of 15 or 16, whatever, who sees that he not begin with the children, it begins with the parents and could potentially be a criminal for acquiring cannabis and the children are following the example of the parents, and have that on his record and that could affect his employment, we have got to get a campaign across to parents, a hard- for getting stoned, whereas he can quite easily see vast hitting campaign and the most hard hitting health campaigns amounts of other people getting absolutely plastered on that I see are led by Scotland: they make no bones about alcohol, and that is great – ‘You know, we were absolutely the damages to health through alcohol or smoking and I smashed last night,’ that is the common theme – and people really think that we have to address the problems of the do not say, ‘Well, that is disgusting. What do you think you older generation in leading the younger generation down are doing there?’ this path of alcohol abuse. So we have got mixed attitudes in the way that we deal I find it very interesting that, amongst young people that with drugs as such. Yes, there are very particular, unique I know, it is not those young people who will drink and areas where drugs are a problem, which is in the class A drive. They value their driving licences far too much, but it drugs, the cocaines, the heroins, crack cocaine, where really is the older generation who will have one for the road and serious measures and serious education has to be undertaken, jump in the car. but, in other areas, you have to put it in the balance with alcohol and understand. Mrs Crowe: Yes, she is right. This Report and previous Reports have quite clearly laid out, many times over, the huge quantities of educational Mrs Craine: I just feel, Mr President, that, yes, material, promotional material, that has been going into the education needs to be continued. It needs to be made uncool schools through life skills, into community programmes, to be excessively drinking, but education begins with the into the prisons, and so, if all this information is going into older generation and I do think that, at the moment, the these areas and people are being made aware of these Education Department is working very hard and doing a problems of drugs and alcohol, surely that problem would very good job, along with the Health Services, who address have been resolved by now? They would have seen the light. this problem where the youth are concerned. Why haven’t they seen the light? Why are we spending these vast amounts of money, encouraging people to see the light The President: Mr Rimington, Hon. Member for shining in their faces, and they are just turning away from Rushen. it and saying, ‘No, I am going to carry on and live my life, as I see in a different way.’ That is the problem. Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. In summary, Mr President, essentially the problem is I initially decided to stand in relation to the comments you have a society which is based on economic greed and by the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle, who asked on self gratification and, while you have that society, then for more draconian sentences for drug users and drug you destroy social values, you give insecurity to people in pushers and it is always easy and it is very good public their life, people do not know where their future is and you news to bang on the table and say we want stiffer sentences, will always have social problems and it does not matter and slam them in prison and think, in any sense, any shape, how many wonderful agencies we have catering for all these that, by doing so, you are solving any problem except your needs, whether it is in drugs and alcohol, or all round. We own good conscience and, possibly, your own popularity have a huge myriad of agencies trying to mop up various in the polls, because (Expressions of disapproval) it makes social problems, but it is the fundamental nature of society absolutely no sense whatsoever. Indeed, when you actually itself that is the problem. get those said people into prison, what do they meet there? The President: The Chief Minister to reply. A Member: More drugs. Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Rimington: More drugs. They are prevalent in our In moving this Report today and when it went onto the prison. They are prevalent in every prison throughout the Agenda item, I did not know, in my own mind, at that time United Kingdom and throughout the western world and that how much debate it would engender and I thought, bearing is a fact and that is the reality. All you are doing is in mind that this is the fourth Report, it would be interesting introducing people to an environment where they might get to know from Hon. Members currently what their comments hardened on the drug. and feelings were. Yes, where people are dealers and are deliberately I guess if we had had this debate four years ago, then, breaking the law, to that extent for their personal gain, they obviously, many of these issues would have been raised should be dealt with and they should be given the appropriate and were raised and I, too, would like to congratulate my punishment, which will include being put away. But, in predecessor, as the Member for Douglas West, Mr Shimmin terms of the users, I do not think you gain anything by said, that Mr Gelling did, at the time he was Chief Minister, slamming them up in prison and that is really a retrogressive set up this sort of over-arching committee which is a mixture policy and, obviously, that has been even recognised within of politics and people at the coal face dealing with the issues, the movement in the Isle of Man, through the drug referral to ensure that we do have a co-ordinated approach. There team, to try and actually say, ‘Well, no, a different direction was a feeling at that time that there were lots and lots of has to be taken. You have got to try and educate, you have people doing good things, but, perhaps, in an unco-ordinated

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received 494 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day fashion and we have come a long way over the last few detoxification and rehabilitation facility that we do years and the people who do the hard work continue to do desperately need and I think, from his professional that hard work. They have always done it, but I think the background also, obviously as he said, he has had to deal synergy that you get by working together is what we are with people with particular alcohol problems. trying to achieve by joined-up policy. I made a note at that point, Mr President. I think It is well known in life that the sums of all the component everyone in this Court, everyone in society, any family on parts, taken separately, are not as powerful as if they are all this Island, will have come across an alcohol addiction co-ordinated. So, in my comments in relation to the debate, problem somewhere in their environment, either in the I would like to thank all Members for their contributions family, or with friends, or relatives around them, and it is a and most Members for their support. (Mr Karran: No.) very sorry thing to see people go down and down to the Mr Gill, Member for Rushen was first on his feet and point where they are actually incapable of asking for help, he talked about last year’s glossy Report. We did take note let alone needing to ask for help. So he wants more resources of that this year round, Mr President, and we tried to produce on the ground and I think the Minister did outline the something which is readable, it is noticeable and, at the end situation from her Department’s point of view, in relation of the day, it needs to be reasonably presentable and I to Ard Aalin and the restructuring that has been required thought that that was what we have achieved and it is a there to get that facility on stream and the staffing that is different style from last year’s Report and I hoped that we referred to in the Report. So I thank the Hon. Member for had responded positively to last year’s comments. He used Douglas North for those. I disagree with him to some extent, the words ‘bland’ and ‘sober’; if I can make a pun, though, inasmuch as other Members have said we need to Mr President, I think, in this context, the word ‘sober’ is be proactive, rather than reactive, and treatment in general probably a good one to use, so I compliment the Hon. terms can be a reactive situation rather than proactive – Member for that. ‘Claiming on other people’s work’ and I am sorry he sees it that way, because I thought the Report Mr Henderson: We are there to help them now. and my opening comments acknowledged that it is other people’s work that we are talking about. Mr Corkill: – and we really need to put that alongside I am not sure that, this afternoon, the debate has actually the priority of the educational side – delivered anything at the coal face, but we are talking about political sensitivities and political motivations here and I Mr Henderson: That is what I said. am very heartened that Members still see the desire and the need to push these strategies to improve our social Mr Corkill: – where we get into people and the Hon. wellbeing. Member did raise the issue of education, he talked about Mr Rimington, who resumed his seat not long ago, talked education, but his balance of contribution was more on about social issues, and if alcohol and drugs is not the delivery of service – number one social issue, then I do not know what is, because it is certainly something that society fails to manage in a Mr Henderson: Because you have not got any. particular way constructively. So, Mr Gill has still got his reservations, they continue, and he is wondering whether Mr Corkill: Yes, I understand. the strategic committee is required or not. I would ask the I would thank the member for Ayre, Mr Quine, for his Hon. Member to support the motion, but I would also ask contribution and, certainly, I have no intention of ignoring the Hon. Member that, in the coming year, he takes the the Hon. Member and I apologise if his comments from opportunity, bearing in mind the review that I outlined in last year have gone unheeded. We have struggled all along the opening comments, that it is time to take stock as to and one of the reasons that this committee had to be set up where we are at with these strategies, that he come along to to start with, we have always struggled in getting reliable the committee and put his views across on whether what data. Data from a treatment point of view, from the problem we are doing is worthwhile. I would invite him now formally point of view, and a lot of work has been done this last year to do that and I will follow that up with a more formal letter in terms of the voluntary agencies, in making sure that the from myself to have input into the strategic work of the data we have is reliable. There are so many people involved committee and I think the timing is good for that, because, in this process, there is the danger of double counting always as I have said, we are reviewing a number of things next when doing statistics and we have gone to a lot of trouble – year. when I say ‘we’, the team – to make sure that voluntary So, I hope he will reconsider about voting against, organisations can give us information on an anonymous because I value his input. Obviously his professional basis, because we do not want details of individuals, but background is an important aspect, in the way he thinks we need to have a measurement of the size of the problem. about this, and, maybe, that is why the comments he has Mr Quine’s argument is that we need the information raised are from the coal face, because he has been there on the enforcement side and I think that is a valid comment himself. So I understand what he is saying about ‘Are these to make in terms of the Report, that we have got more resources worthwhile? Would we not be better just to take information on the harm reduction aspect, the health aspect, the money from what is being spent in operating this the education aspect. We have not done so much data work committee and put it into service delivery?’ I would like on the enforcement side, but I am sure the data is there. him to come and talk to me a bit more about that, because it The point about sniffer dogs that the Hon. Member for is a valid comment to make. Middle raised has been answered and when Members were I thank the Hon. Member for Douglas North, invited to meet the Chief Constable recently, in relation to Mr Henderson, for his comments and I think also he majored comments towards the policing plan, that was actually very much on wanting stuff on the ground and the confidentially raised around the table. The points that the

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 495 T121

Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Shimmin, made about they will start to surface and it is a fear and a concern that sophisticated drugs, criminals concealing drugs in a way the Hon. Member is quite right to raise and there is a balance that sniffer dogs cannot find, is something that we ought to to be struck. bear in mind, but sniffer dogs are used and maybe we could If we look at the prohibition of things,that probably leads deploy them to a greater extent. to more arms, as much as the promotion of illegal drugs I thought the Hon. Member for Peel’s comments were does. There is a balance in the middle somewhere and it is interesting, because it just shows that we are not in this something we should not lose sight of. problem alone. The world opium trade, which is vulnerable I do hope, in relation to the scale of resources within the or happens as a result of high-level global politics, is perhaps Island – we always have this problem – do we have enough something that this strategy cannot have an impact on, but people to put through the system on an Island basis, when it is a very valid point to make, because the opium growers we can outsource our problem to people off the Island? Send out in that part of the world of Afghanistan are seriously our drug addicts, send our alcoholics to other places to allow back in business and, whether we like the Taleban or not, them to look after them and us to pay for that service, but I they had actually driven that out of the country to a large would hope, as a society, that we can actually look after our extent. So, for every action there is a reaction, and perhaps own people and produce our own detoxification unit, which world politicians should bear that in mind. is part of the harm reduction strategy. So, I do not believe There is that reference to the children and young persons that this is a flash Report, as the Hon. Member has said. and I have made one apology in this Court already today He did make quite a lot of comment about licensing and I feel very frustrated that we have not made as much laws and I would agree with him that, from time to time, progress with the children and young persons’ strategy as I we need to review where we are at with licensing laws and would have liked and there have been some reasons for that, it is certainly one of the questions I raised with the Chief that I will not put in front of the Court now, but they have Constable in my visit last week on the policing plan, as to frustrated us and I hope that that in the New Year will be whether he thought that the variable hours of licences had back on track, but, certainly, drugs and alcohol, the use of actually helped in relation to policing, in relation to harm substances generally in relation to that input being put into reduction. We need to know more about what the impact of the children and young persons’ strategy is important and I that has been, bearing in mind the rules have only changed think that is what the reference refers to in the Report. relatively recently, and he had views on off-licences. So he I think some of the other points about the detoxification is looking for a legislative package, and if we look at the unit have been already mentioned and I will not reiterate United States of America, which has had a peculiar history the comments that have answered themselves during the with regard to alcohol, if you go to Florida, you will not debate. Mr Waft raised the issue of tobacco and I think there find spirits on sale in any supermarket. You will find lower is a discussion going on in the group at the moment as to alcohol content beers and wines on sale as part of general whether that should be still the responsibility of health groceries, but liquor stores are strictly licensed, strictly promotion and the health services as an issue, or whether it controlled and they are separate from ordinary shopping needs to be added to this drug and alcohol situation. My (Interjection) and, therefore, they are, perhaps, an example worry would be that we take our focus off some of the work of what the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, was that we are already doing, bearing in mind that alcohol and trying to show, which is that you do not want people who tobacco are legal – and that point has been made – and drugs have got a problem having to walk past the product on the are illegal. shelves. The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Rimington, said there I thank the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mrs Craine, for is no logic in all of this, that there are too many . . . he her comments about alcohol being seen as an acceptable referred to ‘mixed attitudes’ in relation to the situation. Well, and available drug, but that is what it is. We all know it is society is always a mixture of attitudes and we cannot get that. We are trying to get a multi-departmental approach to away from the fact that certain substances are legal – and the problem – her words, ‘multi-departmental’. She wants that is in our hands – and certain substances are illegal, and to see a restriction on licences, but that can have a negative we have to deal with it as a society in that way and, yes, it aspect to it as well, in terms of making licences few and far does create dilemmas for young people when they see those between. Of course, you then get a trade in licences starting mixed attitudes, but society sets rules and society expects up, but the Hon. Member is quite right, I think alcopops – people to comply with the rules. So, as young people wish which are marketed and advertised to young people – are to rebel, there has to be tolerance in all of that and it is that an abhorrent distortion of the truth, as it were, and they are, level of tolerance, I guess, that the Hon. Member was really without doubt, harmful. pointing his finger to. The point she made about taxis delivering drinks to In relation to tobacco, I hope that there is a strategy on young people, I think is an interesting comment, because, that going to surface very shortly (A Member: Good.) and some years ago, off licences were being criticised very much I have certainly got very strong views on that and am very for supplying under-age drinkers and I think that they have opposed to people tobacco smoking in public. My hon. tightened up their act quite a lot, but, unfortunately, the colleague from Onchan, Mr Karran, talked about gloss, community has not, because there are many stories of adults talked about Council of Ministers’ spin. The Hon. Member procuring drink from off-licences quite legally and then would, wouldn’t he? I thought that we had actually produced selling it on to young people and that, really, I think, is as a a document that was not too glossy, but I think he raised a result of the fact that the off-licences have tightened up their very serious point in relation to armaments, to illegal arms. act and so you are squeezing the problem further down the Thankfully, this Island is free from arms, by and large from line. So that may actually be a reflection of a certain amount illegal arms, but if we do not deal with the drugs of success with relation to the alcohol squad of the police, environment in a particular way, sensibly, as a society, then who do a lot of work with off-licences now, and make sure

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received 496 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day that they comply with the law as it stands. Members’ Interests and the exceptions applicable. So I apologise to anyone if I have missed them out in Rule 6.1 covers any interests a Member has, whether as the summing up. The comments that have been made by outright owner, or as a beneficiary behind a nominee or Hon. Members are taken on board. They will be reviewed trustee, in any of the following: Rule 6.1(a) deals with land at the next meeting of the Drug and Alcohol Strategy and buildings and, therefore, covers all such property, Committee Meeting and any single Member who wishes to whether it is commercial or private, though the Member’s contribute further is more than welcome to come along and home is excluded. put their point of view over to that meeting and I would Rule 6.1(b) relates to publicly-quoted stocks and shares encourage them to do so. in the UK or Ireland. The reason other quoted shares are With those comments, Mr President, I beg to move. not included here is that it is generally more difficult from the non-specialist user to locate their price, whereas those The President: Hon. Members, the motion which I put within (b) may readily be found listed in the daily press. to the Court is that printed at 6 on your Order Paper, ‘That Rule 6.1(c) covers shareholdings not covered within the Government’s fourth progress report on the Isle of Man 6.1(b), where the economic significance of the holding will Five Year Drug and Alcohol Strategy be received.’ Those be more difficult to evaluate and may sometimes be in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The impossible to ascertain accurately at a given moment. This ayes have it. factor differentiates unquoted shares, or shares quoted on a foreign stock exchange, from those in (b). Rule 6.1(d) deals with the shareholdings in unquoted companies, whose assets include relevant interests, which Register of Members’ Interests Rules 2003 themselves would be registrable if the member held them Debate commenced directly. Within this, details of the asset in question must be provided. 7. The Chairman of the Committee (Mr˚Speaker) to move: Rule 6.1(e) covers bank deposits, loans, cheques, royalty entitlements and the like. This category is widely drawn to That the Register of Members’ Interests Rules 2003 made take in cases in which effective economic ownership of an asset exists, but is not visible because of an intermediate by the Standing Committee on Standards and Members’ arrangement; an example would be (1) where a Interests in November 2003 be approved. straightforward mortgage or loan has been made, which gives the Member an interest in the property; (2) where a The President: Chairman of the Committee bank has lent all the money needed to buy a property and (Mr Speaker) to move the Register of Members’ Interests the loan is backed by an equivalent deposit with the bank Rules 2003. by the Member, so that the Member effectively owns the property and (3) where the Member has sold and conveyed The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. a property and, therefore, the ownership is not registrable, The Standing Committee of Tynwald on Standards and but has left the sale money outstanding as a debt from the Members’ Interests, Register of Members’ Interests Rules purchaser, so that, in this case, also the Member continues 2003, are an item on the Order Paper. These proposed new to have effective economic ownership of the property. provisions provide a significant step forward in providing These transparency provisions would, however, lead to easily accessible information to the public regarding their purely personal and family arrangements being disclosable, publicly elected representatives and include all Members so there is an exclusion for family and personal matters of a of Tynwald. non-commercial character. Rule 1 contains a list of those Rule 1 contains the definitions of terms used elsewhere regarded as having a family relationship to the member. in the Rules, most of which speak for themselves. However, Rule 6.2 covers significant business roles in the private a relevant interest is defined to include any of the types of sector, whether paid or not. There is an exemption for property or interest listed in Rule 6, wherever they are publicly funded bodies, where Members are typically located, whether in the Isle of Man or elsewhere, and a involved in their capacity as Members of Tynwald and material debate is one in advance of which a relevant interest answerable politically in that forum, so that there is no need must be registered, even if it has only just been created. for registration in respect of them. That, of course, is in addition to the existing obligation of a Rule 6.3 relates to paid sponsorships from any of a wide Member of Tynwald to declare any personal interest in the range of interest groups and, separately, to unpaid subject matter before speaking in a debate, or in certain consultancies with such groups. Again, there is an exclusion, cases not to vote. where the sponsor is one of the Member’s immediate family. Rules 2 and 3 establish that the register itself is to be This is covered in Rule 1. computerised, but that hard copy printouts are available. Rule 6.4 covers gifts and benefits in kind, for example, Also, Rule 13 covers the availability of updated hard copies holidays or entertainments worth more than £1,000 in each to be available for taking away. The computer system on calendar year, inheritance and gifts et cetera, when the which the register is kept is self contained within the Member’s immediate family are covered in Rule 1 and are, Tynwald Office and there is no further publication of the therefore, excluded. The name and address of the donor and material. the capacity in which the gift is given must be stated, so In Rules 4 and 5 each Member of Tynwald has a separate that any commercial or political significance of the gift will entry reflecting his or her relevant interests. be apparent. Rule 6 provides for the central feature of the new rules Rule 6.5 deals with anonymous publications, whether and defines what it is that must be in the Register of paid or not. Again, the thinking behind the rule is that there

Drug and Alcohol Strategies — Report received Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate commenced Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 497 T121 should be transparency in relation to what a Member does to have a significant impact on the working of this Hon. in the public arena. The fact, or amount of the payment, is Court and perhaps more so in the other place. That is one not relevant in such a case. observation I make. Rule 6.6 covers membership of bodies outside Tynwald. The second thing I make is: I do not see a reference Although in many cases they may have little or no relevance here to ‘trustee’ – property held in trust – and I suppose it to a Member’s parliamentary functions, that is seen as a could arise two ways, in the sense that there could be matter for the public to judge. property which an Hon. Member has and that somebody Rule 7 provides that, where a relevant interest is else is holding it for him in a trust, or controlling it for him registrable, that it is, in principle, liable to be registered in trust – that is one scenario. when it is acquired, comes into existence, or the threshold The other scenario, of course, is that he himself could in rule 6.4 is passed. It must actually be registered within be a trustee of property for another person. He does not one month, or before a material debate takes place, if one have a legal interest, a direct interest, a personal interest in occurs within that month. the property or – using this term, the legal or equitable Rule 1 covers the definition of a material debate. A good interest, but he does – in managing for somebody else – reason for not registering within those time limits might have an interest in the outturn, or the outcome of that legal exist where, say, the Member did not know and could not or equitable interest. Not in the sense it is going to directly reasonably have known that he or she had acquired a relevant benefit himself, but in the sense that he could be seen to interest and time would run from when the Member did want to influence it in a particular way, because he has an acquire the knowledge in question. obligation and a duty to another person as a trustee. Rules 8 to 11 relate to the mechanics of registration and And I am just wondering if the hon. mover would care refer to the forms annexed to the Rules, which must be used. to comment on those two points; this issue of trust from the Rules 12 and 13 require that a hard copy of the Register two perspectives and also the consideration that has been is printed out at the start of each month and can be inspected given to the impact that this definition of ‘immediate family’ free of any charge by the public in the Tynwald Library is going to make. during normal office hours. Also, it provides that, on 24 hours’ notice, a fully-updated copy can be produced free of The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian. any charge to the public. If the searcher, or member of the public, wishes to take an updated copy away with them, Mrs Christian: Mr President, I think that the new then there is a copying charge made, as is with all public committee are proposing to extend the Register and the documents, and such charge in this case is decided upon by requirement under these new Rules and perhaps have not the Tynwald Management Committee. given reasons for so doing in one or two areas. Finally, Mr President, Rule 14 provides that these rules, We have before us some explanatory notes which are to if the Report is approved today, come into force on assist us in the interpretation of the Rules. I find myself in 1st February 2004 and apply to any registrable interest held some difficulty, for example, in terms of what the on or after that date. explanatory notes say on page 3, 6.1 (e), covering bank Mr President, this is a significant advancement in deposits, loans, entitlements and so on, which states the providing ease of access to the public, in relation to category is widely drawn to take in cases in which ‘effective information regarding members of Tynwald and their economic ownership’ of assets exists but is not visible and individual interests. The public should welcome this and I so on, and, at item 3, says that, if a Member has sold and am sure they will and I hope Hon. Members will also conveyed a property, but has left the sale money outstanding welcome this change. as a debt from the purchaser, the Member continues to have I am, therefore, pleased to move the motion standing in effective economic ownership of the property. I could accept my name. some legal advice, as to whether or not you can have ownership if you have conveyed. You may have a debt The President: Hon. Member for Glenfaba. owing to you, but I am not sure you still have any lien on the property, as it were, and does that principle extend to Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second other types of business? and reserve my remarks. There are a number of Members who are involved in business. They may well allow credit on various issues. The President: Hon. Member for Michael. Hon. Where does that come into this sort of area? That is not Member for Ayre. required to be declared in any way. We are dealing here with property only, it would seem. Mr Quine: Thank you, sir. Also, in respect of the Rules themselves, we now have Just two points. Having read these Rules, I wonder a requirement to set out shares or stocks held in any company whether it has dawned on Hon. Members that this is going quoted on the stock exchange in the United Kingdom or to make quite a significant impact upon debate in this Hon. Ireland. Hitherto, I do not believe that that was a Court? If you look at this and see ‘immediate family’ and requirement. In fact, many Members, perhaps like myself, what it embraces (Interjections), it will probably just be who were in mutual insurance companies that then became myself left here on some occasions, (Laughter) and it is so incorporated, have a few shares in this, that or the other, embracing I am just wondering: is there a full appreciation which would have no significant relevance in the overall of what this definition of ‘immediate family’ embraces? I total shareholdings of those companies and I wonder what am perfectly happy with it. Being a poor, old pensioner, I the thinking is in terms of the committee in requiring us do not have to worry about these things, but the fact remains now to list those things and whether or not there should be that this is an all-embracing definition and I feel it is going a measure in there of how significant that holding is? I have

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate commenced 498 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day no problem with declaring it, I just wonder why the thinking have had in coming up with this selection of issues is that, has changed. on the one hand, you try to be prescriptive and, on the other, We go on then, under 6 again, in the rules which sets you try to leave it open and general and, so, on the first out the main parts of these changes: directorships, page, we have a very definite prescriptive list of what consultancies, proprietorial or managerial roles, whether ‘family’ means and that is fine. That is an easy one to be paid or not in relation to any business or professional prescriptive about, but it does get more difficult when you undertaking, other than one wholly supported by public try to be prescriptive elsewhere, because in (6) it says, ‘or funds. Does that cover all the activities of Members of this any body outside Tynwald’. Hon. Court outside of the Court? It does not seem to me to So, if you are going to be that general, then be that do so and, if it does not, why does it not? If it is worded to general and Members will have to declare membership of fit certain Members of the Court who have involvement whatever body they happen to be a member of and I do not outside, why does it not cover everybody, in whatever have a problem with that, if that is what the committee is respect they may be (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) offering their looking for. So, I did wonder why Freemasons were services, either by way of employment, or as consultants. particularly referred to. Oh, consultants it does cover – but employment, either direct I am a member of Douglas Rotary club so, yes, I do not employment or self-employment in providing services to have a problem putting that down on a prescriptive list if others? I would like the mover’s view on whether or not that is what the committee has been trying to achieve, but, those are covered. on the one hand, they seem to be prescriptive and, on the On page 4 we deal with gifts and benefits in kind of other hand, they leave it open to ‘any body outside Tynwald’. more than a total of £1,000 in value in a calendar year. So I wanted to make that point. Frankly, I would be surprised if any Hon. Member of this I also wanted to make the point, in paragraph 6, Court receives gifts to a value to £1,000 a year. I should be fascinated to hear who did and what they were, but the A legal or equitable interest in any of the following: land or buildings wording is somewhat ambiguous. and then it says, Mr Corkill: Hell of a lot of paperweights! except the member s principle private residence . Mrs Christian: It talks about gifts and benefits in kind in the plural, totalling more than £1,000 in a year, which Now, I can understand some of the reasoning why the implies that we had better look out and start tallying these Member’s principle private residence could be left out, but, at the beginning of the year to make sure that, by the end of there again, if you are going to be prescriptive, why not the year, it does not exceed £1,000. (Interjections) However, leave it in? I do not have a problem declaring where I live – it goes on then to say ‘with the name and address of the donor and the capacity in which the gift or benefit has been Mr Downie: It might be a block of flats. given’, which leads me to think that, maybe, it means gifts in total of £1,000 from any one donor. It is ambiguous and Mr Corkill: – and what I own, or whatever, so I just I would appreciate clarification but, again, we need to be wonder why the reasoning is applied to Members’ principle sure what we are talking about here. residences when, in fact, the same logic does not work in Members are sometimes invited as a guest, for example, other areas. That ‘principle private residence’ could be a to a dinner. Do we record the value of the dinner, or is it very substantial situation, where Members might well need actually physically a gift that we take away, which might to declare an interest in relation to planning matters or be a bunch of flowers at the end of giving a talk? This does whatever. So, I just wonder why that needs to be excluded. seem to me to need clarification and I would appreciate the I think, if we are going to go down this road, we need to mover’s opinion on it. be quite open about things and then in (b) it talks about I do think we are getting down to a lot of detail. I do not publicly quoted shares or stock in the UK or Ireland. Again, think any Member has anything really to hide and would it is being prescriptive to jurisdictions of the UK or Ireland, be perfectly willing to give this information, if it is deemed but, in the global economy in the world that we live in these appropriate, but I also wonder . . . I have no argument in days, international business goes across all sorts of favour of Freemasons or otherwise, but I wonder why they boundaries. So why not – the Hon. Member behind me is get a special mention, outside of any other body than saying, ‘Why not declare the Hong Kong stock exchange Tynwald, which covers all the organisations all of us may interests?’ – be associated with as vice presidents, or presidents, or patrons, or whatever. Again, some further clarification Mr Downie: Or timeshare. would be appreciated. Mr Corkill: – or America, because, obviously, in a place The President: Chief Minister. like the Isle of Man, which is international finance, you will have American influences. So, I just wonder why Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. publicly quoted on a stock exchange but then we try to be The previous speaker has just covered the point that I prescriptive when there is no need to be. Why not include was conscious of, which is on page 4 (6), and I quote, all stock exchanges, if people are going to have an open book on these things. (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) Those were Membership of any trade union, professional society, political grouping the feelings that I had on reading this the first time round or party, or of the Freemasons, or any body outside Tynwald. and, with regard to gifts and benefits, total of £1,000, that is a great deal of paperweights. Certainly, wherever I seem I think one of the problems the committee may well to go these days, I get paperweights. It used to be letter

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate commenced Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 499 T121 openers, but they do not travel well with security at the and more of these requirements on candidates, when they airports these days, (Laughter) so it tends to be come in, that it may well start to act as a deterrent at some paperweights. stage and people will not be prepared to have their personal So, I congratulate the committee for giving it a good life exposed, as it appears that they may well be, if all these bash, coming up with a set of words, but I think they have rules are being implemented. tried to be prescriptive and in other ways tried to be too And the only other point that crossed my mind, Mr general and I do not think that mixture works. President, when I was reading this is: where we are talking about the immediate family – and there is quite a list here The President: Hon. Members, I think it is an which is considered as immediate family – I just wonder appropriate time in which to take a break. The Court will how the Human Rights legislation comes in on this, whether, resume its deliberations at 10 minutes past 5. First to speak in fact, they have any – the family members, we are talking will be the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Bell. about nephews and nieces here, who could be many times distance from the actual Member themselves – whether, in The Court adjourned at 4.45 p.m. fact, the requirement for any of their business interests to and resumed its sitting at 5.10p.m. be exposed in this way could be considered an infringement of their human rights as well? They obviously have their own right to privacy, in the same way as everyone else. Is this actual proposal doing anything which could infringe Register of Members’ Interests Rules 2003 that? Debate Continued So only three issues that have crossed my mind, Mr Motion carried President. Is there a model somewhere else where this has been requested? Has the Committee thought about the The President: As I indicated before we broke for tea, impact of this on future membership of the Keys? And does Hon. Members, the first Member to speak is Mr Bell, Hon. it any way affect the human rights of these extended families Member for Ramsey. that we are talking about?

Mr Bell: Thanks, Mr President. The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Mr President, I only have a few very short comments to Cannell. make on this. I just have a concern, I suppose, first of all, which reflects some of the comments which have already Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I will be brief been made about the extent of the requirements to apply to with my comments. this Register and the impact it is going to have on future I suppose the Committee, in bringing these standards – debate. So I just wonder if the chairman of this Committee Register of Members’ Interests Rules – forward, we have could answer three points I would like some clarity on. to make a start somewhere and, indeed, what is contained First of all, is this list of requirements which we are within here for the most part is good and I feel a step in the asked to vote on today something which has been developed right direction, in terms of openness and transparency for just for the Isle of Man, or has it been lifted from Members. requirements in the United Kingdom, or any other But we can all of us add or make suggestions now and jurisdiction? Where is there a similar set of requirements, in the future whereby the so-called Rules, or the codes, can such as our own? be actually more helpful than, perhaps, we have in front of What worries me slightly, Mr President, is that there is us today. There will always be areas that Members will be a almost an atmosphere of conspiracy that is being generated little bit concerned about, but I think, in absence, looking within the Island at the moment in a number of areas and at what we have today, which is very limited and of very we have started to get a bit paranoid about the whole aspect little value to the public, when they actually have a look to of Members’ activities, either in here, or outside. I really wonder whether this is based on anything that is working see where our interests lie . . . anywhere else, and I would like to know what the impact There is one question I would like to put, though, to the that has had elsewhere. mover of this – in fact, there are two questions, and it is One of the concerns I have, reading this, and once again merely . . . I am not getting down to the meat of it, as other listening to some of the other Members’ comments, is: has Members have done, but rather the definitions at number 1, this Committee given any consideration to what appears to where it says: ‘Immediate family means’, and then it gives me a rather onerous requirement, that, by extending this a description. My query is this: does the list of immediate out so far, would have on any future candidate standing for family actually include partners, common-law relationships? Government? In a small community like the Isle of Man it The way it is written – ‘husband or wife’ – infers that there is inevitable that candidates’ families are going to get caught ought to have been, or there has probably been a marriage up in business affairs and will have a lot of involvement of some sort, with the description ‘husband or wife.’ So, within the Island and I wonder, really, whether, in fact, such does it extend to common-law ‘husband and wife’, and, an onerous requirement as appears to be being put forward also, where does it leave partners? When I say ‘partners’, I will at some time deter candidates from coming forward, mean partners of the same sex, because what we are looking because of these increasing requirements which are being at, of course, is bringing these Rules in which will apply, put on them. with adjustment and modification over time for many years People come forward to stand for the House of Keys in to come, so we do not know what sort of representation we the main, I still believe, out of a spirit of public service, will have in the House at some point in the future. wanting to put something back into the community, and I So, if it does not include those two aspects that I am just fear that, if we are not careful, if we are layering more querying about them, then, perhaps, we could be looking at

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate commenced Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried 500 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day that in future and I would welcome the comments by the outside Tynwald.’ hon. mover. Thank you. So there was no ambiguity about whether or not people were Freemasons and that was done in the public interest. The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr I believe that, if you want to belong to the British Legion, Rimington. and I do, I am quite happy to stand up and say I am a member of the British Legion. I cannot see why a person should not Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I would just be equally proud if they are a Freemason to stand up and like to agree with the Member who has just resumed her say, ‘I am a Freemason’, too (Interjections) – to kill the seat, that (Several Members: Oh!) this is the right way to public perception. go. People have pointed out possible areas of deficiencies But, as I say, of the little comments about the value of in there, but, as a starting point, we should accept that and £1,000 and a bunch of flowers, Members must use their then, in time and through practice, refine the rules, so that own intelligence. We are all intelligent. We are here as they do become more focused and clearer, where possibly members of the Government of the Isle of Man, and you they are not at the moment. But we should, in principle, use your discretion what you put down. You are not going accept these and it is right that Members who stand – to count a bunch of flowers – nobody is interested in that. possibly it is something that should go out to possible They may be interested if you are given a holiday to Cyprus. candidates when they register their interest right at the These are the ground rules for the new Standards and beginning – are actually shown this, so that they will know Members’ Interests, and like everything, this Committee what they have to declare. will carry on its work. I think it is absolutely right that people’s interests are It is like the Standing Orders Committee. Standing declared. Some mention has been made about ‘why pick Orders are amended from time to time. They are not written on Freemasons?’ and I think it is valid. down in stone and for ever and a day, and, when there are seen to be little adjustments and amendments, they will be Mr Henderson: Yes. Hear, hear. made. But I say to Hon. Members, you have nothing to fear, and I do not believe that any candidate wishing to stand Mr Rimington: I am not saying ‘pick on Freemasons’; for this House should have anything to fear if his main some Freemasons are very open about their membership purpose in standing is in the public interest and public and that is to be applauded. It would in no way suggest that service. being a Freemason is necessarily a bad thing, but there is a So I would ask Hon. Members to support this, in the public perception that there is a code of loyalty amongst sense that it is in your own interest, not in the interests of Freemasons which might override other interests, and, the Committee. It is your standards which you will be voting therefore, it is right and proper that that membership should for. You will not be voting to support the Committee, or to be disclosed, as, indeed, with any other political party or be against the Committee. It will be you voting as to whether body which might have influence. this is an acceptable document by which you can be judged I just generally welcome these proposals and I think they by the public in disclosing your interests, and you will be are the right way to go and they can be refined in due course. judged on that.

The President: Hon. Member for Michael. The President: Mr Attorney.

Mr Cannan: Mr President, as a member of the The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. Committee, I would just like to say that the basis of forming Mr President, if I may just make one or two comments. these rules is transparency, to ensure, as much as possible, First of all, in relation to the points raised by the Hon. that there is no rumour and innuendo about who has what, Member for Ayre in connection to trustees and so on – a does what, who is or is not involved in this, that and the very important point if I may say so – and, Mr President, I other. hope that with a view to assisting: in rule 6(i), we have the And I believe it is very, very important, in the closed definition of a ‘relevant interest’ and (i) starts with the words community of the Isle of Man, that there should be as much ‘a legal or equitable interest in any of the following –’. transparency as possible. The point I would like to make, Mr President, if I may, I have nothing to fear. I am surprised at some of the is that a ‘legal interest’ would cover an interest as a trustee. nitpicking that goes on, particularly the Hon. Member for In other words, you have legal ownership, but you do not Ramsey – his speech saying that this would put people off have any beneficial ownership in the asset in question, politics and so on and so forth. It is important that the people whereas equitable interest is the reverse. In other words, outside know what your interests are (Two Members: Hear, you have a beneficial interest in something, but you do not hear.) It is important. actually own it, because a trustee owns it for you. The thing that I have noticed is that people have referred So, the very good points that the Hon. Member has made, to Freemasons, but if you look at it, it says ‘member of any I think, are covered satisfactorily by the definition of trade union’ – what is wrong with that? (Mr Karran: Hear, ‘relevant interest’ – legal or equitable interest. hear.) – ‘any professional society – But, Mr President, if I may, could I also just raise a query in relation to 6(i)(e) and take up the example that appears Mr Corkill: No problem. in relation to the explanatory notes at page 3. An example is given in the explanatory notes of a situation where a Mr Cannan: – ‘any political grouping or party, (A Member has sold and conveyed a property, but has left the Member: Hear, hear.) or the Freemasons, or any body sale money outstanding and so on. What concerns me

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 501 T121 slightly, Mr President, if I may: shall we say that a Member expressed concerns and often different concerns to other has sold a business and that the sale proceeds are £55,000, Members and the needs that we should be looking at. so they exceed the minimum limit, but the Member in I have listened to the learned Attorney’s comments and question does not leave the money in the business for the there have been questions, ‘Does this comply with human new owner, but rather puts the money into a unit trust, or rights?’ Should it be less or more prescriptive? How wide puts it into some sort of account which does not earn interest, is the definition of ‘family’? I do not believe that this vote but is designed to create profit over the years. should be lost because of these concerns of Members and, Now, Mr President, as I understand the wording of 6(i)(e) therefore, I am moving an amendment which says: that sort of situation , albeit that it is an asset which is of a personal nature because you have just sold your business, Delete ‘approved’ and insert Ð nonetheless you have to declare that because 6(i)(e) is ‘referred back to the Committee for further consideration sufficiently broad to catch it. And I just wonder, Mr in the light of the comments of Hon Members during this President, whether that really is the intention, that if you debate.’ sell out a business, shall we say, and you put the money into a unit trust, not necessarily with a view to earning Now, I think that if it goes back to the Committee and interest, but some capital growth, is that the sort of relevant they then come back to us, having considered those interest that needs to be disclosed? comments, then perhaps we will get a Report which we I leave it to Hon. Members, but it seems to me that it is feel that is correct and we can all sign up to. not the sort of interest which falls within the guidance notes. So I would, therefore, like to move that amendment.

The President: Mr Delaney, Hon. Member of Council. The President: Mr Lowey.

Mr Delaney: Yes. Just in brief, I congratulate the Mr Lowey: I would like to second, sir. Committee, on our behalf, which had a very, very difficult job to do and, obviously as the Member for Ramsey has The President: Hon. Member, Mr Downie. indicated and other Members – outside, now, it is not the case of being white, you have got to be painted white every Mr Downie: Yes, thank you, Mr President. two hours to make sure that you are looking white – and I Could I say that, in reading the document, and having congratulate the Committee on getting a difficult job done done some research, I think that this is probably the widest on our behalf, and it is on our behalf. . . ranging set of conditions covering a membership of a But there are a couple of things that I am querying here parliamentary body that actually exists. with my learned colleague on my right, and I call him I have checked up what the situation is with the Scottish, learned colleague – you have covered everybody except Welsh, Northern Ireland and the UK and in other my darling mother-in-law! She did not get a mention; jurisdictions in Europe, but if that is what Hon. Members nobody wants to mention their mothers-in-law and they do want, well, let us have it, let us bare all. (Mr Cretney: Hear, not get a mention in here. You have got your step hear.) (Laughter) grandmother – well, your step grandmother is mentioned – Now, section 6, relevant interests in property, for but not your mother-in-law and she is closer – some people instance, land or buildings, except the Member’s principle wish she was not – but she is closer to most, and I wonder private residence: there are Members, I would suggest, there why! The chairman will tell me why she was eluded. And, are definitely Members in other jurisdictions who not only obviously, your father-in-law, because they are close family have their own home, but they have a family home or a members, they have come in from your partner, or your summer residence – whether that is classed as the principle spouse, and the situation is that they must have some residence, it is a debating point, time-shares and so on. Time interests as well – as well as witchcraft and other things can actually be spent equally in two places. So that needs they get involved with! (Laughter) to be clarified. In (b) Mr Downie: You will have to declare that now. shares or stock held in a company, whose shares or stock are publicly Mr Delaney: I do congratulate the Committee and, just quoted on the stock exchange in the United Kingdom or Ireland, for the record, so that I do not get caught out when . . . I have booked my time, by the way, with our Clerk, to give I would prefer shares or stock to be held anywhere, not just me the time to declare my interests because all the Members the United Kingdom or Ireland. If we are going to do it, let are going to have to do this and it is going to take a long us do it for the right reasons and do it properly, as someone time to do it. I take a size 8.5 shoe and I wear St Michael on — I think it was theT reasury Minister — said, We are in my underpants! (Laughter) international markets and if there was money about, we should know where it is. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Singer. Now I am going to give Hon. Members a situation that I was faced with 18 months ago. As some Members of this Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to move Hon. Court will know, one of my hobbies is collecting an amendment, hopefully, to help the Court. Could that be antique firearms, and for me to be able to collect antique distributed, please, and could I have a copy? firearms, I need to register as a registered firearms dealer. Mr President, I believe that we should have a Register If you read this section 2, of Members’ Interests. I think that everybody here believes that we should have a Register of Members’ Interests. But a directorship, consultancy, proprietarily or managerial role, whether we have had a wide debate and several Members have paid or not, or in relation to any business or professional undertaking,

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried 502 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day as soon as you become a registered firearms dealer, you Committee would be able to explain to me quite clearly would fall into that category, and you would have to register about this relevant interest of immediate family, because I as a business. find that might be quite difficult for some people. Both of Now, 18 months ago, Hon. Members, there was an issue my children, I am sure that you all know, are chartered raised in this Court which gave rise to Members declaring accountants and I would not have a clue what their relevant interest and the Register, and I was very disappointed that interests were. They do not disclose that to me. I would not someone in the local press decided to publish in the expect to know. They would not disclose it to anyone. I newspaper, along with Members’ photographs, and I was would not know what their relevant interest was in any quoted as being an ‘arms dealer’: (Laughter) ‘Member of property they own. One would not expect to know, I would Tynwald – an arms dealer’. (Interjections) have thought. But I would ask Hon. Members, if we are going to have Now I am sure that the Hon. Speaker will be able to a situation where we are all going to bare all and have all allay my fears, but I do think that there are some things our information ready for whoever wants it, it has to work that, perhaps, we need a little more clarity about in the both ways. There should be guidelines issued to the press Report, picking up from a number of Hon. Members that and, if they step outside those guidelines and they start to have spoken – and, certainly, I would not like to see the publish information about Members in a derogatory manner, Hon. Member for West Douglas described as an ‘arms I think there should be some redress. dealer’. (Laughter) I have no problem letting the public or anybody else know what my interests are, or what shares or capital I have, Mr Delaney: Gun running! or what interest I have, as long as it is not dealt with in a derogatory manner. There are Members here who will have Mrs Crowe: Oh, sorry! membership of clubs, associations, trade unions . . . I never hide the fact that I am a Freemason. If you want to see which A Member: Terrible man! lodge I belong to, you have only got to look in the Members’ Interests Book. I have no problems declaring that and I think The President: Hon. Member for Peel. other Members – Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. A Member: The black dog site. I am rather confused because my reading of this, and my understanding of it, was, maybe – and if everybody else’s Mr Downie: Or the black dog site, as the Hon. Member understanding of it is different to mine, well, maybe it is said, and there is another example of derogatory just time that we all went home and left somebody else to publications, some of it picked up from the Members’ get on with it – that we have got the definition of immediate Interests Book. family, but we do not have to declare (Mr Shimmin: Hear, At the end of the day, Hon. Members, international hear.) (The Speaker: Absolutely!) our immediate family – convention dictates that we have a right to some sort of privacy. Now, whether we forego that completely is another Mr Cannan: That is right! issue, but what I do not want to have to do in this Hon. Court is, some months down the line, to have the learned Mrs Hannan: – and so I do not know what everybody Clerk coming and saying that, because of the policy of is getting all hung up about! Members’ Interests, we need another member of staff Surely, if we cannot actually understand this document because half of us are resigning or joining other fishing and if we are reading it in a different way, then, maybe, we clubs, or shooting clubs, or all sorts of other affiliations. should all drift off, go home and leave somebody else to do There is going to be a lot of work for someone and, if these, it, because we are all getting hung up about. . . It is something as I understand it, are going to be published on a monthly that affects us, Eaghtyrane, and I really feel that we should basis, there is a lot of work here. be as open as we possibly can, (Several Members: Hear, I have no problem supporting the document as it exists. hear.) and any organisation and anybody else who is affected (A Member: Hear, hear.) I would be inclined to support by money around about us, I think we should be prepared the amendment, because I think that there are some issues to declare. that other Members have raised that do need clarification I would propose that we just get on with this. Bring it and, perhaps, given what has been said in the debate thus in; it is not going to mean extra staff. It is going to mean us far, that would be the best route to take so that we could air Members actually declaring ourselves and I believe that we some of these issues and get them out of the way. should just get on and do it (Several Members: Hear, hear.) (Interjection by Mr Cannan) and I will certainly be supporting the motion as it stands.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Crowe. The President: Mr Karran, Hon. Member for Onchan.

Three Members: Vote! Mr Karran: I just wanted to raise a couple of points. One was what we have got to realise in our society is Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. that the Government is more than likely between – Following on from the Hon. Member’s comments, I depending on who you listen to – either 40 per cent or 60 think I, too, would be rather in favour of supporting the per cent of the economic activity of the economy of the Isle amendment brought forward by the Hon. Member of of Man, anyway, so we are in a position of needing to sort Council. out what our interests are. I am sure that Mr Speaker and the other members of the I will not be supporting the amendment by Mr Singer,

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 503 T121 because I think it is wrong. I think this is not perfect, there they are intrusive. I would have to say I do not think it is are points that I feel should be looked at – the way society anyone else’s business if anybody is a Freemason or not. is changing with partnerships and things like that, they are That is my view, and I think a lot of the matters that are issues that need to be looked at. Not everybody in a being required to be disclosed should be unnecessary. heterosexual relationship is getting married. You have got On the other hand, modern life is complex and intrusive, partnerships and things like that. and many of the rules and laws that we make and impose I feel that the Committee should be praised for what on society are similarly intrusive and complex and, they have done. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I think it is the unfortunately, on balance, my judgement comes down that right way forward. I think it is not 100 per cent. I am it is probably better to be open and to avoid suspicion and perfectly happy to declare that I have been a member of the misunderstanding by signing up to this, regrettable and Transport and General Workers’ Union. (A Member: Hear, intrusive as it all is, but, at the end of the day, unfortunately, hear.) I have been since I was an apprentice joiner. I have it is a price to be paid and it is one of the many prices to pay always supported it, because it was always to try and keep when you enter public life, and we may as well . . . It is our a full-time union officer on the Island. I have made no secret choice, if we want to enter public life, well, yes, there is a of that. If they wanted that information down before this, I down side and this is one of them. would have put this down. Some of us have put down what few things that we have The President: Mr Speaker. had and, in fact, we have been trying to get them, when we have got poorer, trying to get rid of it off the Register Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. anyway; it is not up to date. But what I am concerned about is when I hear the Two Members: Vote! purposeful misinformation that we seem to have. We have the Chief Minister here talking about his paperweight: well, The Speaker: Yes, thank you, Mr President. maybe somebody has hit him over the back of the head The debate has been interesting and I think, really, a with £1,000 worth of paperweight – little bit disappointing, in that I am, I suppose, a little bit disappointed that some Members seem to be so protective Mr Corkill: They are saving it up for you – 1,000 about issues that actually are quite straightforward. We can tonnes! (Laughter) all understand - our natural nature is to protect ourselves - but I have to say, when we are in public life, as the last hon. Mr Karran: The only difference is the people that speaker said, you are in public life, and, whether you like it defend me. . . The situation is that we do know that this is or not, decisions we make, whether it is as individuals, or nonsense. Nobody is talking about a bunch of flowers and whether it is as Ministers, affect the people outside and this misinformation. (Mr Cannan: Absolutely.) greatly can affect where business is given. Therefore, there I think the Committee has done a good job and I think it has to be this availability that the members of the public, or should be supported and this idea of having to refer back . . anyone who is concerned, can actually find out whether or . there will be things that are not quite right in this thing, not a Member has a pecuniary interest, or has a direct there is the issue, I say, that has not recognised modern times involvement with a company that might or might not benefit in our society, as far as partners are concerned, but I feel from a decision that is made. that we need to do this. Whether we like that or not, that can only be provided The most important issue is that, when people talk about by a Register of Members’ Interests. other jurisdictions, the fact is the Government is one of the Now, Members know that we have a Register of biggest economic generators within the economy. At the Members Interests already. We have a Committee that was end of the day, when you look at the number of people just formed by resolution of Tynwald on 22nd October 1975. alone that have to work for Government, we are a special That is already an extensive list of requirements that case and I think, regarding the problems that the Hon. Members have to register, but the difference is it is not Member for Ramsey says about Members not being compulsory. The difference is that Members do not have to concerned about putting all their information into the public register, because they are not in contempt of Tynwald if domain, I believe at the moment the reason why we have they do not, and we know, the way that it has been presented not had more people standing for election to the Hon. House sometimes, because of the way that these are available to is because everybody is making an awful lot of money the public, people themselves are in a position where they outside this Hon. Court at the present time. judge what matters and what does not, and, in fact, some But at the next General Election, with the way we have Members enter things into the Register because they think, handled things, it may be a different kettle of fish, but there for example, they should enter everything they have got an would be more reason for having a transparent system, involvement in, and other Members make a judgement that where people’s interests are, and I think this Hon. Court ‘well, that does not really matter because it is irrelevant’. It would do a disservice to itself not to support the Committee’s might be the local football club or it might be the local golf recommendations and support the motion. club, whereas somebody else puts everything in. So, our Report that came to Tynwald originally said to Mr Cannan: Hear, hear. Members that we felt that this should be made compulsory, so that it was absolutely clear what Members were expected The President: Hon. Member, Mr Rodan. to register in the Register of Members Interests. A half-way house these days, I am afraid, is no good, Mr Rodan: Mr President, like some others I do think and if you look back at the basis for why the 1975 motion that these rules are complex, they are detailed and, indeed, was made, I think that will tell you a story as to why that

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried 504 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day came in at that specific time, because there was public because the opportunity was there for Members to comment concern - and I am sure in most cases unfounded, if not in back to the Committee before we finalised the Rules. all cases - that Members were actually ensuring that their Now we have an amendment, which says to refer it back businesses, or their whatever, benefited. to the Committee, and I would say, ‘what for?’ With the Now, we know there are other rules and statutory greatest of respect, yes, we have heard what has been said provisions that, in fact, make that impossible, but there is a in here today and I am sure that myself and my colleagues public perception that Members in public office, certainly on the Committee will consider those views, to see if there Members of Tynwald, in fact, are in a privileged position to is anything we can pick up there that may warrant us benefit themselves through their actions. In fact, nothing recommending an amendment to the Rules in the future, could be further from the truth, because, once you are a whether it be in the immediate future or the long-term future. Minister, or if you are a member of a Department, in fact The point that Mrs Cannell, the Hon. Member for Douglas you are in a worse position. East, made about what happens in relation to common-law I can say, for example, through my own business, my partners: no, they are not recognised. What happens if two business has lost income over the years because of positions men live together, or two women live together? No, they I have held, because, then, I cannot sell to that Department, are not recognised in the Rules. and, quite clearly, that does not apply just to me, it applies Maybe, at some stage that might happen, but at this time to other Members. So we are not in a privileged position in it is not there and it is a matter that may happen in the future. that way. These Rules can be amended by Tynwald at any time to Now ,as far as this issue today is concerned - and, take into account change in circumstances; that is what unfortunately, it went off on a tangent, I hasten to add, at Parliament does, it reflects what people require and there the start, because, of course, the Rules and the ‘immediate may be, in the future, expectations from the public that, in family’ mean that is the list as best defined and as fairly fact, more is required to be known about the affairs of defined as we could, without listing everything back to your Members - who knows? What we have endeavoured to do great, great, great, great grand uncle, or great, great is come up with a fair balance on what is required. grandmother-in-law, whatever she is. This is what we really, Now, there are a number of specific questions and I think as a Committee, sat down and judged to be a reasonable list I have actually clarified the issue in terms of the first part of people who are classed as ‘immediate family’ - so that of the Rules. Rule 1, the ‘immediate family’, what it means: there are exemptions for Members, so that their children those people listed there, who are immediate family, are do not have to register, because they happen to be the son not covered by these Rules in the circumstances covered in or the daughter of a Member of Tynwald - because, to be the Rules. honest, it is irrelevant. That is why we defined those I would also make the point that, if Members look at the exemptions, so that their individual own business interests, explanatory note that was sent out by the Committee, on or whatever, as members of the family of a Member, are page 3, halfway down, and I quote, it says: not part of the whole issue before us. I think that is absolutely right and the Committee actual These transparency positions would, however, lead to purely personal took a lot of time and chewed over this quite a lot before and family arrangements being disclosable, so there is an exclusion we got here. Whilst the information and the Rules are only for family and personal matters of a non-commercial character. a small number of pages, in fact the amount of work that So, we have taken into account that individual private family went into it and considering what was required by the matters are not covered in the Rules that are before us. committee was actually quite considerable. We had a lot of The other issue that was raised was in relation to trusts meetings thrashing this out, because the members of the and property and, again, I think that is covered. If it is a Committee are also, like everybody else in this Hon. Court, family trust, it is covered, it is exempt. If it is a business Members of Tynwald, and what we endeavoured to do was then it is not exempt, because you are in it for a commercial come up with a fair balance and try to go forward with this reason, so that one is covered there. new format on what we felt would be required by the public And if it is an individual trust that you are on, that is not - not by us - what we think the public expect to know about a family matter, you must declare it. It declares that you are us, if they want to take an interest in the affairs that we a member of the trust, it does not necessarily mean every undertake. detail about its income and what goes on, it just means that Now, a number of Members have expressed concern, it is in the public arena that you are a trustee for that and I can only say with the greatest respect to Hon. whatever. Members, the Committee, before it finalised its rules, The Hon. Member for Council, Mrs Christian, raised a actually put out a consultative document to all Members. number of issues - and again, I mean, Mrs Christian, I think, They were given a month to reply and we had two replies – was opposed originally to our views that this should be made a compulsory requirement – Mrs Hannan: I was happy with that. Mrs Christian: I did not say that. The Speaker: Exactly, as the Hon. Member for Peel said, we then took the view those who had not replied were The Speaker: No, you did not this time, but when the content with the proposals before us, because we know that Report came last time I think the Hon. Member opposed or is how we all react. initially expressed concern about the point of making it So, whilst I can understand some Members seeking compulsory. I do not know whether the Hon. Member voted clarification from me as chairman, and I will try and do against, but she certainly expressed that view - I do not that, I find the view that there is, to some degree, some have a problem with that, that is a point of view. opposition to it, to be maybe a little bit tongue in cheek, But what I would say is that, when we are talking about

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 505 T121 the issue of somebody who has what we call effectively And where we talk about a £1,000 limit, if I got eight of economic ownership - that is that it is in somebody else’s those, then I would have had £1,000 worth in one year - I name, you put property into somebody else’s name - we are do not know what I would do with them, but I would have making sure that you cannot use that as a way round the them! Anyway, I got one and that is what happened to that system. In other words Tony Brown cannot own a block of one, so it really is as an explanation as to how the system is flats and put it in Joe Bloggs’ name, who is a mate of his, there to work. and say ‘I do not own it.’ If I still own it, I still own it. The The Hon. Member also raised, as did others, about point that I have put it in someone’s name, if we do not mentioning the Freemasons. We mentioned this purely in have this, they get round it, and then you could argue that terms of mentioning an organisation. Why? Because the you have no direct interest, and, of course, you would have. one that always comes up and has come up over the years So it is really a lot of these things that try and cover any has been people’s – I do not know whether it is fear or potential loop-holes. whatever you want to call it – about the Freemasons. We The Hon. Member, Mrs Christian, also raised the issue, say ‘the Freemasons and other organisations’; we make it quite rightly, about ‘employed’ against ‘employees’. In other absolutely clear it is not just the Freemasons, and, again, I words, if you are an employee you have to declare, if you can go back into my record in here and it quotes that I am are employed you do not. Well, the difference is if you are President and Chairman of the Castletown Over-60s Club – an employer, you control your business, you determine where it goes; if you are an employee of the business, then, Mrs Crowe: He doesn’t look over 60, does he? of course, somebody else controls you and you happen to (Interjections and laughter) have an income from another source. For example, we do not declare which Members get The Speaker: - that I am related to the Southern 100 private incomes from other areas, or pensions, or whatever Motorcycle Club, that I have been a member of whatever it it may be from previous working lives, so this is a similar is and, if you want to be – I am a young pensioner – basis. If you are not the employer, if you do not control the (Laughter) and if you are a member of Round Table, Rotary, company, you do not have to declare. So, again, I would Freemasons, anything like that, you put it in there. Why? just make the point that a lot of these things are there already. Because Members may be lobbied by an organisation at In terms of the £1,000 gift, the Hon. Member, Mrs one stage, which might not want us to do something, and I Christian, raised the gifts and benefits of £1,000; well, think, if a Member says: ‘I wonder if he is connected to it’, already that is in the Members’ Interests requirements now, you have got the right to look it up. Or if a member of the and the £1,000 is, in fairness, trying to get a reasonable rate public wants to know, they have got the right to look it up. and, basically, if you get given a gift, you declare it. The If the press want to know, they can look it up. And I think difference will be that you have to declare it; previously it that is right, why hide it? There is no logic in hiding it, has been voluntary, and I look at my Register of Members’ because they will find out, anyway. Interests and I will give an example. So that is the basis of that, and I hope I have clarified it A lot of these questions we ask for today are in there, is not just the Freemasons; it is any group or organisation and I got the book sent over which refers to my interests, so involved in that. I will not read anybody else’s out. It is a big book – this is The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, asked whether not just me, this is lots of Members – and it says in there or not this list of requirements was just our own idea for the about details: Isle of Man, or if it was from the UK. Well, the answer is it is largely based on the UK requirements and we have Please detail any gift or any material advantage of a value greater modified it to fit what the Isle of Man’s needs, we believe, than 0.5 per cent of the prescribed annual sum payable to a Member of are at the moment, and, as I say, it may well be changed Tynwald under The Payment of Members Expenses Act 1989, Section some time in the future. 1(1) received by yourself or your spouse which in any way relates to your membership of Tynwald. The Hon. Member also said about the personal information: might it affect people who, in the future, might Now, one gift I got, which I put in there, was, in fact, want to stand for the House of Keys? My answer to that is, when I undertook a ceremony and I got a personal gift given if it does, then, maybe, they are not the right person to be in to me, which was one Waterford Crystal ship’s decanter, the House of Keys. At the end of the day, if you want to be presented on 19th June 1995, and its value was £160 to a Member representing the public, then there are things that £180. I donated that to the Castletown Lifeboat Committee, affect your life and they affect your family. If you do not who then auctioned it and raised money for that organisation. want that effect, do not be a Member of the House of Keys I did not retain it, but I declared that I had been given it, or a Member of the Legislative Council. Go home and do because somebody might have said: ‘Oh, by the way, I something else – remember Tony Brown, back in 1995 - or 1994 or whenever it was - and he got this gift, so he is bound to be doing them Mr Cretney: Get on with your life! (Laughter and favours!’ The point is, that is what happened. I put it in the interjections) book, anybody comes back six or eight years later, there it is, in black and white. I have hidden nothing. The Speaker: – that is the choice. That is the choice As far as I can see, in my public life I believe that is the that any candidate has to make. right thing to do. I believe my constituents and the people In relation to family – and I think I have explained the of the Isle of Man expect me and others to do that sort of exemptions there, so there is no problem on human rights, thing, and I see nothing wrong with that at all. And if I had as far as I am aware – families are exempt from the criteria, retained it - because I could have done - it was properly as I have, hopefully, best explained. declared. Mrs Cannell - I have covered hers.

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried 506 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

I thank the Attorney General for his explanation. In that were in there! For goodness’ sake, let us modernise! relation to 6(i)(e), my understanding is that investment of ‘Here it is, it is on computer, here is a print-off, that is how funds in a unit trust is the same as shares, but, if it is personal, much you pay for it,’ - same as any other document provided it is excluded, for example, if they sell the family business, by Tynwald and Keys. that is a personal issue, then it is excluded. It is about openness, it is about transparency, a word I take the point the Attorney raised about the levels, and that seems to be very popular today, but the real thing is it that is an issue that, certainly, the Committee, or, at least, is actually about openness, so that the public who we we will ask the Clerk to look at and advise the Committee represent, in fact, are clear as to what our interests are. on, and if there is a need for any change on that then, quite I have to say, whether we like it or not, there are still clearly, we will consider whether or not that needs to be quite a number of people out there who actually think that made. I thank the Attorney for that clarification, because we, as Members, line our pockets when we are in here, we he also clarified some points that were there. all do everything for our own benefit, we do not care about Again, answering the Hon. Member, Mr Delaney, it was them. Nothing is further from the truth, but that is what a judgement, the list of who is in the direct family was a they think, and the more information about ourselves that judgement and it may well be altered in the future, who we can make available then the better it is, and what this knows? will do is bring in a proper consistency of information, so There was also a concern raised by the Chief Minister that every Member is treated the same and every Member and by Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Downie, about knows exactly what is expected of them. It will not be that concerns of investments outside the UK and Ireland. I can difficult, as we know, because we will have the situation answer that by saying that they will be covered in rule where the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office will provide the forms 6(i)(c). Rule 6(i)(c) covers anything else, so you have the for Members and advice and it all can be put in. detail in the UK and Ireland, because they are easy to get, I hope Members will reject the amendment for the but if you have still got shares and interest in the USA, or reasons I have said, and I hope Members will look at this as Canada, or Australia, they will be covered, as I understand a positive way forward to provide the public with it, in 6(i)(c), that you will just declare that you have that information that really they should be aware of. I beg to interest. It does not mean that you will have all the detail move. there, but you will actually say, yes, I have shares in whatever it may be in that country, and then at least people The President: The motion which I put to the Court is will know that you have. that printed at 7 and to that you have the amendment The point the Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr circulated to you in the name of the Hon. Member, Mr Downie, said about firearms: yes, I can understand his Singer. concern and I think that he has made the point of how Hon. Members, I will put first the amendment moved important it is for the press to ensure that they use the right by the Hon. Member of Council. Those in favour of Mr terminology when they are actually putting into something Singer’s amendment, please say aye; against, no. The noes what a Member has an interest in, and hopefully, by having have it. The noes have it. these things updated on a more regular basis, then that will The amendment having failed, Hon. Members, I put to provide more information. you the motion as printed on the Order Paper. Those in One of the recommendations is that this will be updated favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. every month. The reason for that is – it is not a problem, because it is on the computer system; if there are no changes, A division was called and voting resulted as follows: there are no changes. At least, if a Member does update their Register then it will be found within a month, because the next month’s printout will show that, in fact, there has In the Keys – Ayes 23, Noes 0 been a change of their interest, whether that is taking something out, or putting something in. FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson None And I have to say, I think one of the big advantages Mr Cannan there will be for the public – and that includes the press – is Mr Quine that they will now, under these new rules, and under these Mr Rodan new arrangements, if approved by the Court today, be able Mr Quayle to go into the library, not have to make an appointment with Mr Rimington Mr Gill the Clerk and for the Clerk’s office then to put somebody Mr Gawne sat with them and go through the Register while they are Mr Houghton sat there - and this is to ensure that they do not alter them - Mr Henderson and they then can go into the library, look at it, look through Mr Cretney a copy that is up to date, and if they want a copy they can Mr Duggan Mr Braidwood purchase it. Mr Downie At the moment - a Member has talked about staff time - Mr Shimmin if somebody wants to have a look at the Members’ Register Mrs Hannan of Interests, and the example I will give is one of the Mr Bell newspaper reporters, the last time they covered all this, rang Mrs Craine up, made an appointment with the office and a member of Mr Karran Mr Corkill staff had to sit with them for a full day – a senior member Mr Earnshaw of staff had to sit in an office for a full day, while the member Capt. Douglas from the press sat there and wrote down by hand all the bits The Speaker

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 507 T121

The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the preference in this recommenced debate because he moved House of Keys with 23 votes in favour, no votes against. the adjournment, he could speak first if he wished –

In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0 Mr Karran: Would that stop me from speaking further at a later date? FOR AGAINST Mr Lowey None The President: What I would propose to do is to allow Mr Waft Mr Singer Mr Gawne to speak, get the amendment forward and then it Mr Kniveton becomes a straightforward debate. Any Member could then Mrs Christian speak, there would be no difficulty in any regard. Mr Delaney Mr Gelling Mr Braidwood: Mr President, what about the other Mrs Crowe Members who have already spoken under Rule 3.25?

The President: Unanimity in the Council as well, Hon. The President: They would continue to speak, sir. Members, the motion, therefore, carries. The Speaker: To the amendment.

Mr Braidwood: To the amendment, but not to the Procedural motion, sir. The President: Now, Hon. Members, bearing in mind The President: As far as I am concerned, they would the clock, we need to decide where we are going and what continue to speak. As far as I am aware, the only Members time we should complete this evening. Can I suggest, Hon. Members, that we look to finish possibly this evening who did not speak to the adjournment debate, took part in somewhere around half past seven, eight o’clock, and the adjournment debate, the other Members who spoke to certainly take the next Item. (Several Members: Agreed.) the original motion were Mr Henderson, Mr Houghton and Hon. Member for Onchan. Mr Anderson. Then Mr Karran moved the adjournment. So I think the logical thing, Hon. Members, is that we Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I was going to move that this have the amendment on the floor of the Court and continue next item be deferred to allow the Captain of the Parish to with the debate. call a requisition meeting in the Parish – Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, sorry about this, but if I move The President: Well, Hon. Member, we have not the adjournment again for the Captain of the Parish with reached that stage yet. his request for a public meeting in the parish . . . So, Hon. Members, it seems to be there is an agreement that we crack on and see where we get. The President: Right, okay, Hon. Members, let us just clarify it. The person who has preference under Standing Several Members: Agreed. Orders is the Hon. Member for Onchan. I call the Hon. Member for Onchan.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I was happy with the Onchan District Act 1986 adjournment last month. Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 I was very disappointed, as far as the issue of the Debate resumed and adjourned meeting. I was disappointed with my Commissioners. I had no intention not to support the proposal here today, until I 8. Debate to be resumed on the following motion which was received a letter from the former Clerk of the Onchan Parish moved by Mr˚Houghton at the November Sitting and Commissioners and that has put me into a bit of an awkward adjourned: position because, as far as I was aware, I believed that the situation was that the game plan was always for the two That the Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order areas to end up paying the same rate, as far as that is 2003 be approved. [SD No 747/03] concerned. I believe, as the Member that was there, and represented the Middle Sheading, I can tell you that that The President: In that case, Hon. Members, we have was always the case, that I believed was the case. reached Item 8 on the Order Paper. I spoke to the Captain of the Parish on this subject and Now, you will be well aware that this is an item which he agreed with me that he believed that was to be the case. was adjourned at the last month’s sitting. Very few Members Since then I have received this letter. But the one thing spoke to the motion moved by Mr Houghton at the time, that the Captain of the Parish asked me, if I would do, as but a lot of Members spoke for the adjournment debate. the Member for Onchan, is to give the parishioners of the Hon Members, it appears to me that I am now aware parish the right to have a requisition meeting. (Interjections) that I also have in my hands an amendment which is coming Quite frankly, I take no joy in wanting to have a public forward in the name of the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr meeting on this subject, but the problem is I do believe that Gawne, if he so wishes to move it. Hon. Members, what I the Captain of the Parish has asked me, as the senior Member would propose to do - bearing in mind that Standing Orders for the constituency, to ask for this proposal for a requisition does give the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, meeting.

Register of Members Interests Rules 2003 — Debate Continued — Motion carried Procedural Onchan District Act 1986 —Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 —Debate resumed and adjourned 508 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

I personally believe that they should have that right and Tynwald, I would certainly support. I assume that this is a I would move that it be adjourned to the next sitting of this practical possibility, otherwise the Hon. Member, Hon. Court in order to let them have their requisition presumably, would not have moved it. meeting and I hope they do not lynch us three Members of But I would be very pleased to support that, because I the constituency in the process! think the precedent of pressing ahead with this change in Accordingly, I move, principle – which, on the face of it, goes completely against an undertaking enshrined in law that was given at the time ‘that under Standing Order 2.9 consideration of this of amalgamation, and which I can vouch from experience matter be adjourned to the January 2004 sitting of is a process that is held up as an example and as a model for Tynwald.’ other parish authorities to follow when contemplating voluntary amalgamation, as against forced amalgamation But I hope that Hon. Members would honour that, by the Department – is very dangerous, if we did not allow especially as I have had the request from the Captain of the the democratic process (Two Members: Hear, hear.) to be Parish, so I have taken the opportunity that I can discuss seen through in the way proposed. the issue of the Hon. Member’s amendment when it comes forward. The President: Now, Hon. Members, we enter an I will then just formally move that it is adjourned, give adjournment debate. Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. them the opportunity and then there are no problems. One of the complaints was that they have had no chance to Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. We are making consult. They can have their public meeting. The Captain fools of ourselves, once again. of the Parish has asked for this and I am only here as a vehicle to allow for free speech and allow them to use what Mr Rimington: Sit down, sit down. is an ancient right. I beg to move that it is referred and let them have a Mrs Hannan: No, we are not. requisition meeting in the parish and in the new year we can then . . . There has been the consultation. I beg to move. Mr Houghton: Absolute fools of ourselves. (Interjections) The President: Hon. Member, just for clarification. You We must look a bigger bunch of hillbillies – we really, did say – I understood you to say – that, in fact, you are really, do – than anybody, than any other parish proposing the adjournment to the next sitting, to the January commissioners, or anything. sitting 2004? Onchan Parish should have maintained its ordinary Commissioners and we should have moved Tynwald Court Mr Karran: Yes. up to Onchan Parish somewhere, because I am sure you get more sense out of sheep than you would from this Court, The President: The January sitting 2004. Now, then, (Interjections) the way we are going on. (Interjections) The Hon. Members. amount of prevarications that are going on here: ‘First I’ll support’, the Hon. Member there says, ‘and then I won’t’, Several Members: Agreed. and then he is going on: ‘The Captain of the Parish has jumped in now, and he wants to know what is going on.’ The President: Hon. Member, Mr Rodan. No, Hon. Members, we need a seconder for the adjournment. Mr Downie: Who is he? He has got no authority here.

Mr Earnshaw: I will second, sir. Mr Houghton: Well, the Captain of the Parish has no authority. He sits on the Hill, I know that; but the thing is, it The President: Mr Rodan. is not the Captain of the Parish. This is just another trumped up delay that has been laid on here by 12 signatories to a Mr Rodan: Yes, I am happy to second that, Mr letter, asking the Captain of the Parish for a requisition President, but one of my concerns, in following this fairly meeting. complex story, is that I have looked . . . in the sequence of events, the point at which the public were actually consulted Mr Quayle: People require consultation. by the Onchan District Commissioners – the public of the rural ward – to gauge their opinion and to have explained Mr Houghton: Consultation has gone on here since this to them this monumental change of principle and of time last year – through the Commissioners – significance that was proposed, and which apparently had been agreed, and I found that nowhere in this process were Mrs Hannan: Who with? the public actually consulted at a public meeting. Now, if this was Lonan parish, I can tell you for sure, Mr Houghton: Yes, it has. Now, then. Mr President, that the Commission was the first thing they would have done if there was a proposal to change post- Mr Quayle: People have been ignored. amalgamation – see the rating situation – there would have been a meeting called to explain, and I found it most Mr Houghton: Nothing to do with us, Hon. Member. surprising that no such steps had been taken. This is an Onchan Commissioners matter. This is a matter On the assumption that there will actually be time for a for the local authority (Interjection by Mrs Hannan), then public meeting to have taken place by the next sitting of for our approval in law. (Mrs Crowe: Absolutely.) End of

Onchan District Act 1986 — Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 — Debate esumedr and adjourned Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 509 T121 story. (Mrs Crowe: Yes.) It has gone through stage one of be considering this matter. the political process at Onchan District Commissioners’ I think we have all had plenty of time now to talk to Offices. It is as simple as that. people in Onchan to find out what they think. (Mr As for the Hon. Member, Mr Rodan, and what he has Houghton: Hear, hear.) Yes, it would have been helpful if just said, I am quite, really, aghast at that, really, from what the requisition meeting had been held and we could have he has said. The decision has been made at local level, where had the views of the people in Onchan on this as well, but I it should be made. It is only coming here for approval and think, as Members, we have had the opportunity to find out we cannot make any decisions, and the prevarication that what is going on. I detect a degree of resistance to this Order, has been allowed to go on here is quite unbelievable. anyway, in Tynwald. I suspect that we can resolve this very And please do not forget, ‘Don’t shoot the messenger’; readily and clearly today. John Houghton is the messenger in this particular case. (Interjections) I agreed, for the wonderful word of The President: Chief Minister. transparency, to bring this to the Court to try and keep it – Mr Corkill: The Hon. Member for Rushen, who has Mrs Hannan: As long as you live in Onchan, I would just resumed his seat: I think I would echo some of the have thought . . . comments he has just made. It is, obviously, a core issue to have a requisition meeting Mr Houghton: – as far out of DoLGE as we possibly with regard to people being able to express themselves could. It is not a DoLGE issue. We were just the conduit democratically in public, transparently, through Department, in order to bring this forward. That is all. representatives, so that Tynwald Court knows exactly what Then we thought, ‘Let’s ask an Onchan MHK to see if people are actually saying. I am not saying there should not they would bring it forward on behalf of their be a requisition meeting and if that process happens, it Commissioners. You have heard the Hon. Member for happens. That is the will of people and that is the rules that Onchan, Mr Karran, going on about ‘his Commissioners’. I we have, but I would just like to inform Hon. Members can tell you, they absolutely hate the way he claims his that, due to the hard work and good offices of the Rural Commissioners are his – Commissioner, Mr Keith Watterson, my phone has not stopped ringing for the last . . . it is probably still ringing Mr Karran: They are not mine. now and I have had numerous letters from constituents from the rural (A Member: Hear, hear.) area of Onchan. I cannot Mr Houghton: – but why does he not bring this motion believe that, at this point, there are actually many people in here and bring it on behalf of his Commissioners. the rural area of Onchan who have not actually expressed their opinion in some way to their representatives, or in Mr Karran: I would be very happy – some public way, or in some private way, in the way that they choose to do so. The President: Hon. Member, may I remind you you Now, I am not saying that that is an argument against a are speaking to the adjournment. You have half a minute to requisition meeting, because that can complement things, go, sir. but I do think that, because of the adjournment from last month, which my hon. colleague moved, and I think, quite Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. rightly so, the issues that were fermenting are there for all Once again, I am in Members’ hands. (Interjection by of us to see now. Mr Karran) Vote against this nonsense, get this matter voted I know Members are in receipt of a lot of through and be done with it. correspondence. I do believe that the arguments will have to be put one way and the other way and dealt with by Tynwald Court in the way that we have to deal with things The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne, speaking to and I really do believe that that time is now. (Mr Houghton: the amendment, sir, yes? Hear, hear.) I do feel that the actual thrust of all the arguments are probably – they are certainly in my mind – Mr Gawne: The adjournment? at a high level, and, with another month’s delay, I do believe we could be accused of procrastination. The President: Speaking to the adjournment. It is an If it was to obtain more fact and more opinion to aid our adjournment debate. The Five-Minute Rule applies. debate, then, yes, I would support the adjournment, but I do not believe, in the interim of a period of a month, bearing Mr Gawne: That is fine. in mind there is the Christmas period et cetera, that we really are going to gain that much ready for the next debate. The President: Support or reject the adjournment. So, whatever side of the argument you are on, whether it is Mr Houghton’s or other people’s, I do believe that we Mr Gawne: Thanks. I am not happy with yet another are in a position to make a decision tonight, (Mr Houghton: call for an adjournment. Hear, hear.) and I would recommend that we do deal with the Order and, please, that would then stop my phone ringing Mr Houghton: Well done! a little bit, perhaps.

Mr Gawne: I think it was right to have the adjournment Mr Houghton: Vote for or against, be done with it. last month because there was considerable confusion as to what was going on. We only really found out there was a Mr Corkill: But I jest, Mr President. It is a serious issue problem a day or so before we actually were supposed to for many people.

Onchan District Act 1986 — Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 — Debate esumedr and adjourned 510 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. Mr Braidwood: So, therefore, Mr President, I think we should get on with the motion, listen to the amendment and The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Crowe. decide this evening, sir. (Interjection by Mr Corkill)

Mr Houghton: Storm in a teacup. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw.

Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. I am brought to Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. my feet by the comment from another Hon. Member, Yes, speaking against the adjournment, I would like to mentioning the fact that it was DoLGE’s way of echo the comments of the previous speaker. Like him, I amalgamating, whatever. This is purely and simply an Order consider this has been a live issue for 12 months now. It has progressed through this Hon. Court, with my Department been in the public domain. A requisition meeting could and acting as the facilitators. should have been held months ago if it was considered necessary. I think the outcome would be fairly predictable, Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. but I cannot really see that a requisition meeting will help the situation now. Mrs Cannell: We already know that. The President: Capt. Douglas. Mrs Crowe: We are acting on behalf of the Commissioners of Onchan, who have completed all the due process that they needed to go through to bring forward Capt. Douglas: Thank you, Mr President. this Order. Unfortunately, I was absent when the debate went on the We cannot do other than act for local authorities in this last time. I am speaking against the adjournment. way. Local authorities do not have the facility to stand here Could I just say, sir, that two expressions spring to mind themselves, to bring forward these motions. So that is what in this debate – we are here to do. As we have said, I do not believe delaying it for another Mr Quine: Both nautical. (Laughter) month would be as helpful as some people might think. I do fully understand the resistance to Hon. Members and Capt. Douglas: – and one of them is ‘ad infinitum’ the members of the rural area not wishing for increases in (Interjections) and ‘in perpetuity’. Now, ‘ad infinitum’ is rates. And, of course, that has got to be understandable. defined, sir, as ‘without limit’. It is forever and it is obviously Who would vote to increase what they have to pay for from the Latin, ‘to infinity’. anything – petrol, cigarettes or rates? No-one is going to ‘In perpetuity’ is defined as being ‘the state or quality vote for an increase, which is what would happen. of being perpetual’. ‘Perpetual’ is clearly defined in the So what I am saying to you is: DoLGE are here acting dictionary as ‘eternal, lasting for ever or indefinitely, as the facilitator for a process that has been gone through continuous, uninterrupted, permanent during life’. and adequately gone through with the local Commissioners (Interjections) of Onchan. (Mrs Cannell: Repetition.) Now, the two definitions, sir, I have just given are not The reason that the Commissioners are not here at this plucked from the air. They are taken from the submission present time – as you know, they were here earlier – is made by Onchan Commissioners to the Tynwald Select because it is their torchlight procession this evening Committee on Local Government Reform on 17th July (Interjections and laughter) and they are facilitating that. I 2000. So it is quite clear that this was the understanding by know we have one hon. member of the Commissioners here the amalgamated Commissioners some four years or so after who (Mr Corkill: Two.) Oh, I am sorry, two, to represent the Onchan District Act 1986 came into force. them. I did not want people to think they had been discourteous Mr Braidwood: Fourteen years. to the Court by leaving, but, as you know, it is an event which is very well planned and very well attended, and that Capt. Douglas: However, when one takes a closer look they need to be there for marshalling and the like. at the Act, section 1(2) brings together the village district of Onchan and the parish district of Onchan, and then, under The President: Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. the rating section 4(2), one can see that

Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. the Commissioners may by Order in respect of any year after the year I am speaking against the adjournment, because my view commencing on 12th May 1990 amend subsection (1) so as to alter the is that, when we look at the paper on the explanatory note factor by which the general rate is so to be reduced. to Members which was circulated, it was first mooted on 15th January 2003. So, therefore, the chairman of the rural Therefore, on one hand, Mr President, we have a body committee could have called a requisition meeting at any of people signed up to such glorious principles as indicated time during the year (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) to get the by the use of the expression ‘ad infinitum’ and ‘in opinion of the people of the parish and of the village. perpetuity,’ and, on the other hand, sir, almost as if by accident, discovering section 4(2) of the Onchan District Mr Houghton: First sensible thing you have said all Act 1986. day, Phil! (Laughter) Clearly, as indicated by the submission to the Tynwald Select Committee in July 2000 which is post the Act, there A Member: You’d better sit down! (Interjections) was no sign of breaking the agreement freely entered into

Onchan District Act 1986 — Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 — Debate esumedr and adjourned Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 511 T121 in 1986 between the rural and urban parts of Onchan. Mr Delaney: We should not have to make this decision It is easy to imagine the shock, therefore, by the rural for such a very well-run community. I was around and a lot residents of Onchan when they discover that, almost of Members were around when this came through, but I overnight, an Order was to be placed before this Hon. Court, would say this: as much as I have said in the past about the seemingly without any discussion between the unfairness of rates in all the Island, if this was done to that Commissioners and, if you permit, sir, the junior branch of little group of people in that constituency, it does not bode the ratepayers. well for the groups of people who are served exactly the In the explanatory note given to Members, such fine same in the country areas, because what is good for one words as ‘fair, reasonable, equal access and sufficient group is good for them all. consideration’ are used liberally. What is not at all clear, If you can put this through on the nod now, for those sir, is whether or not the rural ratepayers were ever consulted 300 souls, you are doing exactly the same for the rest of the properly. country community, because that is exactly what we are It is all well and good indicating that ratepayers have ruling. equal access to the amenities and services provided by the Do not do it just to get rid of it. It has been put to us: authority. It certainly seems that the majority of Onchan ‘Let us get rid of it. Let us just make a decision.’ That is not people have up to nine votes per person, whilst the people the important matter; the important matter is to be seen to of the rural ward only have one vote per person for the main be just and I do not believe we are seen to be just at all. We board of the Commissioners. just want to get rid of it because it is seven o’ clock at night. If I had seen more indications of equality in the Order, I If it needs to be deferred, I cannot see any objection to could have, perhaps, been happier. The same comment deferring it to let that community sort it out. If it takes applies to the explanatory note given to us as Members. It another public meeting, do it. may be the belief of Onchan Commissioners that they I am reaching my five minutes, I am sure you are going consider their new policy is fair and reasonable, but, judging to tell me, but I hope it is five minutes well spent. Democracy by the phone calls and letters I have had from the rural ward is more important than £40,000 extra income to Onchan of Onchan, the Commissioners have hardly been fair and Commissioners. reasonable – A Member: Hear, hear. The President: Hon. Member, you are rapidly running out of time. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quayle.

Capt. Douglas: – in their communication, or should I Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. Speaking to the say their lack of communication, to the rural constituents adjournment – has been sadly lacking. Thank you, sir. Mrs Cannell: Five minutes! The President: Hon. Member, Mr Delaney. Mr Quayle: – I think this has been a very sad and sorry Mr Delaney: Yes, to keep well inside the five minutes: saga and crass insensitivity to the various people in Onchan I was not going to speak, which is the common expression there. I believe it has been very badly handled and I would in here, but I have to, to say to Capt. Douglas, our hon. pay tribute to the rural commissioner, Mr Keith Watterson, colleague from the Keys, for Malew and Santon, the fact of for being such a lone but effective voice to try to bring some it is that is what it is all about. It is about representation of reasoning to the debate before us. people. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I know that, at the last sitting in November, we actually I would have hoped that the group of people I admire in agreed in this Hon. Court we should have a month’s Onchan will have had the wherewithal to have got this adjournment. That has not happened, because, as we all together before it got here. know, this sitting in December is a week earlier than what it would otherwise be (Laughter) because of the Christmas Mr Karran: I know. holiday. (Interjections) So, in fairness, we have not had a month’s adjournment. We might have had a calendar month, Mr Delaney: But we have got 300 people, who I cannot but we have not had a four-week period between November see have equal rights, and we are always shouting about and December (Interjection) to allow for a requisition equal rights, (Interjections) but if you are prepared to sell meeting to have been held. So, I think it would have been them down the river, and say ‘at some time’ – and I am helpful perhaps to have had the benefit of a requisition given to understand – for up to two years before we get meeting. round to it, to giving them what is their rights in all sorts of I think, as far as the local government of the Island is terms. concerned, it is a very important subject and if this is going I am sure a lot of them can afford the increased rate, but to be trying to be rail-roaded through, what message does it that is not the point we are arguing. We are arguing a much send out to other local authorities in the Island, who may, more important and democratic right than that, and I think with the good efforts of the Minister for Local Government that it is up to us to protect their interest. Although people and the Environment – she has been trying to encourage do not want to talk about deferring it, I would love to see local authorities to work together – this will send out the them go back and sort it out themselves. strongest possible message –

Mrs Crowe: Yes. Mr Delaney: Don’t put the charges up.

Mr Houghton: We have done. Mr Quayle: – ‘Do not bother, do not trust anybody about

Onchan District Act 1986 — Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 — Debate esumedr and adjourned 512 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day what may be agreed, because it will come back to another A Member: Hear, hear. meeting of Tynwald in the years ahead and they will renege on an agreement that was given in good faith.’ The President: Hon. Member for Ayre. There is nothing that has happened since 1986 to have altered it to any large extent, and, for that reason, I think we Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to should think long and hard. Another month would not do speak in support of an adjournment, and I think I would any harm to get it sorted out by the Captain of the Parish very quickly explain why. having a requisition meeting to give the people their chance The arrangement that is now in place, and the solution to have an input. which we have come up with, were founded – and this is beyond dispute – on a fudge to strike an agreement on the The President: Hon. Member, Mr Waft. basis of perpetuity. Now, I do not think there is such a thing Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. It makes you as ‘perpetuity’, frankly, because everything else moves. but wonder, when – that was a fudge and is quite clear that that was the beginning and the end of this situation. It was on that basis that that Mr Downie: I hope you have all declared an interest in was granted; that was the concession given in order to get the rates! (Laughter and interjections) this agreement. What is now proposed is that, notwithstanding that Mr Waft: – you have got (Interjections and laughter) agreement, notwithstanding the commitments that were two authorities like the rural and the village commissioners made on which this agreement was struck, there is a proposal suddenly get together one night and said, ‘Well, look. This now to revisit one element of the earlier discussion – can’t be right. Why are we paying this amount and why is differential rating – and I do not think that that really stands the rural paying that amount?’ Why did they suddenly do scrutiny because, if one element, or one factor, of those that? I would put to the Members here today that it suddenly that were in the initial discussion is to be revisited, then I dawned on them, ‘Hang on, who is going to pay for this would suggest that there is a strong case to revisit the other incinerator? It is going to go on the rates. It is going to be elements that were in that original equation, when the debate £45, £50, £60 million on rates. Now, yes, yes.’ (A Member: took place, and all we have been dealing with here – all we Hear, hear.) ‘Let’s have a little think about this now. The have been touching on here – is differential rating. village rate is so much. The urban rate is so much. There So, I believe there is a strong case for a public meeting must be some adjustment here that we should be thinking to get us back to what the basis of the original agreement about now.’ was – that is, several factors which were in the equation at I think that is where it all started. Somebody said, ‘Hang that time, sir. on!’ Well, quite honestly, I can understand the thinking (A It is not just a question of whether or not it is fair now Member: Hear, hear.) and somebody said it, somebody has for one part of the Onchan area to pay more than the other; proposed it and everybody agreed, apart from the rural it is now a question of: ‘Right, what about this whole members, quite understandably. (Mr Karran: Yes.) ‘Hang question of amalgamation?’ on, boys, we have got rural members here. They have not Amalgamation, which is what took place in 1986, is not been consulted and in fact, the rural committee has not been the only solution to this problem. There is a range of consulted’. (Interjection by Mr Corkill) solutions. So what is happening here? Where are we going with What about the representation issue? (Mr Delaney: Yes.) this? ‘Oh, well, if we get the Bill out, we can have a look at That was key to earlier discussion – the Bill’ and true enough the Bill says what it says: that, after 1991, it can be looked at again. Mr Delaney: It was. But, at the same time, the rural member would turn around and say, ‘Oh, no, hang on. That is not what it said in Mr Quine: – and now it is going to be brushed aside Hansard. Mr Maddrell said in Hansard ‘perpetuity’. Mr and one part of it changed. (Mrs Crowe and Another Callin said in Hansard ‘perpetuity’. ‘How can we change Member: No.) the spirit of what was said in the Houses?’ and somebody I believe that the least people of Onchan are entitled to then turned around and said, ‘Ah, but that is not what is is a public meeting to discuss the several elements, the written in the Act, boys! We have got to go ahead with this. number of factors that were in those original discussions. We have a right to do it!’ They have not had that opportunity; it has been solely on And they have got a right to do it and that is probably this matter of rating differential, and I believe that there is a the fault of the people who put it through at the time. Nobody strong case for an adjournment, so that they can go back thought that that would ever happen, but it has happened – and revisit this in its totality and they should be offered no and I would put it to you, because of the situation all less. ratepayers now find themselves in. I have no problem with the adjournment, but I think the The President: Mr Speaker. facts are there for all to see. I do not care how many meetings you are going to have. Nobody in the rural district would The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. vote for it. I certainly would not if I was in the rural district, I have been listening carefully and I suppose this time and in the village district they will probably say that it is has not helped me a little bit, because we have mixed views probably quite right, they should be included in it, because from the Members for Onchan within Tynwald. we have got a lot closer with modern transport et cetera. At the end of the day the difficulty I see is the one I saw I am happy either way, but I think we should get a last time; it comes down to people’s rights and perspective how this all occurred in the first place. Thank representation, (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) and I have a real you, sir. difficulty . . . I do not believe that, on one hand, you can say

Onchan District Act 1986 — Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 — Debate esumedr and adjourned Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 513 T121 that we will implement charges and, on the other hand, we The Speaker: Mr President, the motion for adjournment will eventually make legislative changes to introduce fair carries in the House of Keys, with 13 votes for; 11 votes against. representation in the area of Onchan. In fact, you should amend the law first, and bring in the In the Council – Ayes 6, Noes 2 changes in the charges second, and, whatever the reasons behind this, or whatever the views of Onchan are, the one FOR AGAINST Mr Waft Mr Lowey thing is that this is not an urgent matter. Mr Singer Mr Gelling The Hon. Member for Douglas North said: ‘It is not a Mr Kniveton matter for us.’ I am sorry, Hon. Member, it is because we Mrs Christian have to approve it, and if it was not a matter for us it could Mr Delaney be done by Onchan Commissioners. Why do we, as Tynwald Mrs Crowe Court, require to approve it? For a very straightforward reason: we are there – The President: Hon. Members, in the Council 6 voted for, 2 against. The adjournment therefore carries, Hon. Mr Delaney: So it is just. Members. The Speaker: – to actually take another view and ensure that people are treated fairly (Mr Anderson: Hear, hear.) and I believe that this is in danger of not treating people fairly. Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 I do not accept the view that was mentioned publicly by Traffic Signs (Application) Regulations 2003 approved a Commissioner recently that the shenanigans in Tynwald did not do any credit. I have to say, whatever a 9. The Minister for Transport to move: Commissioner thinks, we have no interest except to protect the public – That the Traffic Signs (Application) Regulations 2003 be approved. [SD No 827/03] Mr Anderson: Hear, hear. Mrs Hannan: That is right. Hear, hear. The President: We turn, then, Hon. Members, to Item 9 on our Order Paper and I call on the Minister for Transport The Speaker: – and, therefore, if nothing else, we have to move. a duty, if we think there is a potential for injustice, to ensure that that injustice does not get approved. Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. This is the I have to say that the first thing Onchan Commissioners Traffic Signs (Application) Regulations 2003, which is an should have done was consider changing the law to ensure updating of traffic regulation signage. Hon. Members have that there was fair representation and, as part of that, then had the explanatory memorandum. I think at this point I changing the rateable value difference that needs to be done; would just beg to move, sir. I have to say that this is back to front. My view is that I will support the adjournment. If that The President: Mr Douglas. fails, I have to say – I do not know what the amendment is that is coming forward, but my view, certainly, would be Capt. Douglas: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. that, if it does not, that nothing should happen until there is a change in the law. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw. Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. Several Members: Hear, hear. Just a fairly minor item in one respect, but I would just The President: Hon. Members, I feel you are ready to like to ask the Minister for the Department, to seek some vote on the adjournment (Several Members: Hear, hear.) sort of assurance from him. A concern that I have got is that Hon. Members, those in favour of the motion being a lot of these street signs – the proliferation of them over adjourned to January 2004, please say aye; against, no. The the years, there are more and more – eventually become ayes have it. like street litter, and I would ask him to comment, please, on the impact that these additional ones may have, and also A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: on the principle of what I am saying for the future. In the Keys – Ayes 13, Noes 11 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Cannan Mr Gill: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Quine Mr Rimington These Regulations bring the Isle of Man more into line Mr Rodan Mr Gill with Great British Signage and I would ask the Minister Mr Quayle Mr Gawne Mr Cretney Mr Houghton what reassurance he can provide: if the signs in Great Britain Mr Duggan Mr Henderson are to be changed into line with the European Commission Mr Downie Mr Braidwood directions and requirements, firstly, can the Department Mr Shimmin Mrs Cannell confirm that, if there is such a move, then we will, or we Mrs Hannan Mr Corkill will not follow suit; and, secondly, sir, if we do follow suit, Mr Bell Mr Earnshaw what cost implications would he anticipate? Mrs Craine Capt. Douglas Mr Karran The Speaker The President: Minister for Transport to reply.

Onchan District Act 1986 — Onchan District (Differential Rating) Order 2003 — Debate esumedr and adjourned Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 —T raffic Signs (Application) Regulations 2003 approved 514 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Gill: Yes, thank you, Mr President. Could the Taking the Hon. Member for Rushen’s questions first: Minister advise, do we currently have any of the variations we do already have certain aspects, which are irrelevant for of patrol signs that he has described; what are the the Isle of Man, which are withdrawn from their implementation or replacement programme costs that he Regulations. Therefore, we have those powers already to has described; and why are not such costs mentioned in the actually maintain it to our own suitabilities. explanatory notes? The real issue is that these are legalising the traffic signs that are already in use. We do have the autonomy not to The President: Minister. follow suit. However, there would have to be a reason why our people would not wish to understand similar signage, The Minister: Mr President, the replacement of these such as the disabled badge that we now operate as being signs will be done by natural wear and tear. They will be equalised with the European Union, in order to actually replaced with the new signs when the old ones need ensure that our people travelling to other jurisdictions are replacing. Therefore, there is no extra cost. not disadvantaged. We have an existing arrangement of the signs. All we I do not believe that anything to do with this has any are doing is putting it into a different Regulation, which impact on policy regarding our use of signage. We have now has to be done because it has been withdrawn from the those powers. This is purely the Regulation on signs and previous Regulations. All it does, as is on the explanatory the size of what we can legally use on the Isle of Man. memorandum, is that it gives an option of colour around The principle involved with Mr Earnshaw’s comment the roundel on the perimeter strip of the signage. is one over which I can confirm I share his concerns. It is, We are talking about a minor issue which is one for however, nothing to do with these Regulations; these merely regulatory purposes. There is no cost implication and it just authorise what type of signs we can use. The amount of allows us to do a smooth transition, which I would have them is dependent on personal policies of the Department thought most Hon. Members would have thought was a and, indeed, many of the signs are requested by Hon. common-sense approach, Mr President. Members and local authorities. The proliferation of disc zones in areas has, indeed, increased the amount of signage The President: The motion I put to the Court, Hon. required in order to advertise to members of the public where Members, is that the School Crossing Patrol Sign they can or cannot park, with restrictions. All these Regulations 2003 be approved. Those in favour please say Regulations do is authorise what size can be used on the aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. streets around the Island. We do sanitise it for the Isle of Man and I would hope that would continue, sir.

The President: The motion I put to the Court, Hon. Betting Act 1970 Members, is that printed at 9 on the Order Paper. Those in Betting Duty (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Regulations 2003 approved ayes have it. 11. The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Betting Duty (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 Regulations 2003 be approved. [SD No 782/03] School Crossing Patrol Sign Regulations 2003 approved The President: I call on the Minister for Treasury to 10. The Minister for Transport to move: move.

That the School Crossing Patrol Sign Regulations 2003 Mr Bell: Mr President, this Regulation amends the be approved. [SD No 828/03] Betting Duty General Regulations 2001 with effect from 1st November 2003. The effect of this measure is to redefine The President: Minister for Transport to move. what is an ‘on-course bookmaker’, so that this term only applies to those who are carrying on business at a horse or Mr Shimmin: Again, Mr President, Hon. Members have dog track. The Island does not have any on-course had an explanatory memorandum. This is merely tidying bookmakers, except in the case of special events, so the up, because they have been removed from the Regulations effect of the provision will be minimal. I have just referred to. This is a transitional period so that I beg to move. we do not have to discard the existing signage. We will use those, but we will now be authorised to use those and the The President: Hon. Member for Onchan. replacements when they are brought on. I beg to move, sir. Mr Earnshaw: I beg to second, Mr President, and The President: Hon. Member for Malew and Santon. reserve my remarks.

Capt. Douglas: I beg to move and reserve my remarks. The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is 11 on the Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; and against, The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 —T raffic Signs (Application) Regulations 2003 approved Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 —School Crossing Patrol Sign Regulations 2003 approved Betting Act 1970 —Betting Duty (General) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2003 approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 515 T121

Customs and Excise Act 1993 The President: Item 14. Minister for Agriculture, Customs and Excise (Community Instruments) Fisheries and Forestry. (Application) Order 2003 approved Mr Rimington: Mr President, this is the first of three 12. The Minister for the Treasury to move: Orders before this Hon. Court today, which are made under the Animal Health Act 1996. That the Customs and Excise (Community Instruments) Hon. Members will have had an opportunity to read the (Application) Order 2003 be approved. [SD No 783/03] background information about these Orders which have been circulated. The President: Treasury Minister, please. This Order is in respect of pigs affected with, suspected or possibly having come into contact with, swine vesicular Mr Bell: Mr President, this Order applies the provisions disease and Aujeszky’s disease. It was noted that the of Council Regulation EC 1798/2003 as part of the law of procedures for slaughter and compensation in respect of the Island. This Regulation replaces Council Regulation these two serious diseases affecting pigs were different from EEC No 21892 in respect of the revised computerised VAT procedures in respect of other animals affected with serious information exchange system (VIES) with effect from 1st diseases relevant to their species. January 2004. VIES was set up to allow for the exchange The slaughter and compensation arrangements for other species of animals are dealt with under the Animal Health of information in the community, following the (Slaughter and Compensation) Order. The Order before Hon. establishment of the single market on 1st January 1993 and Members today brings the procedures for slaughter and the regulations are concerned with the system for collection compensation with regard to pigs affected by Aujeszky’s statistics on the physical trade of goods between member disease or swine vesicular disease within the scope of that states – the intrastat system – and associated administrative Order, so that there is a uniform system for all species of co-operation provisions. animals in this sort of situation. I beg to move. There are also relevant revocations of the present Swine Vesicular and Aujeszky’s Disease Orders. I therefore beg The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Gelling. to move. Mr Gelling: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is that Mr Gawne: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. printed at 12 on the Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Could the Minister advise why there is consistency in Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 schedule 2, parts 1 and 2, in relation to animals affected by Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) swine vesicular disease, but a 50 per cent variance in the Regulatory Code 2003 same schedule parts in relation to Aujeszky’s disease? Motion deferred The President: Minister. 13. The Minister for the Treasury to move: Mr Rimington: A brief answer would be no, and I shall have to revert to the Hon. Member. Without looking through That the Financial Supervision Commission the original Order and making the right comparison, I would (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code 2003 be approved. [SD not be able to give him that detailed information, but I will No 813/03] endeavour to make sure that is done.

The President: Now, Hon. Members, we will bypass The President: In that case, Hon. Members, if you are Item 13. It is not being moved. There was an error in the reverting to the Member, please circulate all Members of commencement date shown on Item 13. It is important that Tynwald with your reply, sir. this code comes into effect on 1st January 2004, not 1st Hon. Members, I put to you Item 14 ,that the Animal November. Be aware, Hon. Members, that it is a subject on Health (Slaughter and Compensation) (Amendment) Order a Supplementary Order Paper. 2003 be approved. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Animal Health Act 1996 Animal Health (Slaughter and Compensation) Animal Health Act 1996 (Amendment) Order 2003 approved Animal Health (Revocations) Order 2003 approved

14. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to 15. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to move: move:

That the Animal Health (Slaughter and Compensation) That the Animal Health (Revocations) Order 2003 be (Amendment) Order 2003 be approved. [SD No 820/03] approved. [SD No 821/03]

Customs and Excise Act 1993 — Customs and Excise (Community Instruments) (Application) Order 2003 approved Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 — Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code 2003 — Motion deferred Animal Health Act 1996 —Animal Health (Slaughter and Compensation) (Amendment) Order 2003 approved : Animal Health Act 1996 —Animal Health (Revocations) Order 2003 approved 516 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

The President: Minister for Agriculture, Mr Rimington. Mr Gawne: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Mr Rimington: Mr President, this Order is the result of The President: Hon. Member for Glenfaba. an exercise carried out by my Department’s veterinary officers to review measures dealing with the notification of Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. As these new disease in animals, the slaughter of infected, suspect and diseases are being added to the notification list, can the Hon. contact animals and how compensation is applied. Minister inform the industry what the symptoms are of these During the review it became apparent that some nine (Laughter and interjection) notifiable diseases, so that, if pieces of legislation had become redundant. They had been they do occur, we know what they are. (Interjection) Maybe made under earlier Acts and their provisions had been he could give some insight into the occurrence of things superseded by later Orders. They are revoked by the Animal like lumpy skin disease. Health (Revocations) Order, which is in effect for the purpose of good housekeeping. Mr Quine: A short impersonation would be fine. I beg to move. (Laughter)

The President: Mr Gawne, Hon. Member for Rushen. Mr Anderson: I realise that the extra notifiable diseases being added today have never been seen on the Island, and Mr Gawne: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. the point I am trying to make is that the industry (Interjection by Mr Delaney) would like to recognise them when they do The President: The motion I put, Hon. Members, is arrive. (Interjection by Mr Downie) that printed at 15 on the Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gill.

Mr Gill: It is all right, thank you, sir.

Animal Health Act 1996 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. Animal Health (Notification and Slaughter) Order 2003 approved Mr Lowey: Yes, it is just a point really to follow on from the Hon. Member for Glenfaba. It may be flippant to 16. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to say that you do not recognise them. I do not recognise the move: words that are in the Order, to be absolutely honest to the Minister, but it does surprise me to then learn from the That the Animal Health (Notification and Slaughter) Minister that we allow the importation of cattle, but we only Order 2003 be approved. [SD No 822/03] check one in three, if I remember rightly, from a previous –

The President: Minister for Agriculture, Mr Rimington. Mr Quine: That’s right.

Mr Rimington: Mr President, the animal diseases listed Mr Lowey: If we are recognising our international in schedule 1 to this Order are notifiable because of their obligations by saying that these are notifiable, they have serious nature. Five more diseases are added to the existing never been here and do not do an educational bit, then I do list of 24. think it is important that the Department, in the light of In the case of 14 diseases listed in schedule 2, if they what has happened in recent history, should be doing a lot reach the Island, urgent slaughter will be required to prevent more to prevent the disease from coming in, rather than spread. The Order provides for the slaughter of affected, saying that ‘These have got to be notified; by the way there suspected or possible contact animals in relation to those is a posh name’ et cetera. diseases. The point I am making, I am quite sure is apparent to The Order consolidates the Island’s legislation with the Minister: I would like from his Department a clearer regard to the prevention and control of animal diseases, some indication that, for the importation of cattle, there will be a of which have arisen recently in Britain and elsewhere, and stricter regime, as opposed to just listing another five names some of which seem to be flaring up again after being in of notifiable diseases. abeyance for some years. The opportunity has been taken to ensure that the list of The President: Minister to reply. diseases reflect the Island’s international obligations in respect of animal health status. Mr Rimington: Yes, Mr President. If I could take the Some of the diseases have never been recorded here. It last point first: I would – and did in a previous debate – is, perhaps, unlikely that they ever will be recorded here. dispute this concept that the Department is being lax in this However, the Order means that our legislation is recognised way and that the interpretation of the events as expressed as part of an international system of animal health and by Members at the time did not give a true picture of how disease prevention and control. Future trade opportunities controls are put in place. in animals and animal products depend on international But what I will do, in time for the next sitting, is list all recognition of the Island’s animal health status. those controls and I will make sure that my veterinarian I therefore beg to move. officers do provide you with a detailed case of what controls are in place and the reasons why things are done or not The President: Mr Gawne, Hon. Member for Rushen. done in that case, and then, obviously, Hon. Members can

Animal Health Act 1996 —Animal Health (Revocations) Order 2003 approved Animal Health Act 1996 —Animal Health (Notification and Slaughter) Order 2003 approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 517 T121 make their judgement based on that, rather than my probably minimum amount of work. poor explanation of events. Perhaps this is where the Island should be ahead of other Yes, the Hon. Member is quite right, that he would not parts of Great Britain and Europe, in that we should not recognise many of the words here and, quite rightly. Neither condone these poor facilities for animals for that length of do I, which is why it would, obviously, be within the role of time, and we should be reducing that length of time to two, my veterinarian officers to make sure that the industry three, four or five years, because, for new facilities, they should be aware of something, if they are possibly likely to already have to comply with these new conditions. Perhaps come into contact with them. the Minister would like to comment on that. Now, of the diseases that have been listed, I do not know which animals they may relate to and whether they are The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. purely so exotic that there is no chance whatsoever of them arriving on the Island, but they are there just for regulatory Mr Gill: Thank you, sir. That was covered in the purposes; or whether there is, indeed, a real chance and previous question. Thank you. that, therefore, people should know; or whether they are symptoms which may be only determined by a specialist. I The President: Minister to reply. will endeavour, in response to the Hon. Member, Mr Anderson, to make sure that that is done. Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I think the important thing there is that we cannot make The President: Hon. Members, the motion which I put the judgement that the conditions that they are in now are to the Court is that the Animal Health (Notification and desperately poor, but increasing standards have to be met Slaughter) Order 2003 be approved. Those in favour, please in terms of our international obligations. Yes, the majority say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. of the provisions – four of the five provisions – do not come into effect for 10 years for those existing businesses. Now, a business like a pig production business is quite a capital intensive outfit – far more than normal agricultural Animal Health Act 1996 activity – and to probably expect – and this is not just a Welfare of Farmed Animals (Amendment) Order 2003 matter for the Isle of Man but also for elsewhere – that approved complete change in economics – and pig production is not high in value-added – I dare say, would probably be 17. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to unrealistic. move: I can point out – which hopefully will give some comfort to the Hon. Member – that the Department’s quality That the Welfare of Farmed Animals (Amendment) Order assurance scheme, which will be coming in on 1st April 2003 be approved. [SD No 823/03] 2006, will, within that, have improved welfare and minimum standards for all sectors of agriculture, including pigs, so The President: Again, I call on the Minister for there will be an uplift through that process itself, although Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, Mr Rimington, to move. some may not welcome it, but it will be taking place.

Mr Rimington: Under this Order, Mr President, The President: The motion, Hon. Members, that I place provisions relating to the keeping of pigs for farming before the Court is 17 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, purposes are made more stringent. Existing facilities are please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have given some time to adapt to the new provisions. it. However, any new facilities must be constructed to give full effect to the Order from the outset. This is, again, an area where the Island has international obligations to meet minimum standards. Unless these are Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 met, animals and animal products cannot be part of the Sea-Fisheries (Experimental Area) (Amendment) Island’s export trade. Bye-laws 2003 approved The Order reflects tightening international obligations on conditions in which pigs are kept. I therefore beg to move. 18. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to move: The President: Mr Gawne. That the Sea-Fisheries (Experimental Area) Mr Gawne: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. (Amendment) Bye-laws 2003 be approved. [SD No 838/ 03] The President: Hon. Member, Mr Singer. The President: The Sea-Fisheries Act: Minister for Mr Singer: Thank you. Agriculture to move. Could I ask the Hon. Minister: it seems here that, for building new facilities to house pigs, you have got to meet Mr Rimington: Mr President, as recently as July, this all the new conditions immediately – I think everybody Hon. Court approved a set of sea-fisheries experimental area would support that; but, for other ones, the conditions have byelaws, which slightly extended the area for a period of not got to be met for 10 years. This seems to me an awful three years. long time, and it appears that we are encouraging the However, since then, my Department has been advised

Animal Health Act 1996 —Animal Health (Notification and Slaughter) Order 2003 approved Animal Health Act 1996 —W elfare of Farmed Animals (Amendment) Order 2003 approved Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 —Sea-Fisheries (Experimental Area) (Amendment) Bye-laws 2003 approved 518 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day of an official amendment to how the co-ordinates are This course of action will require the Hon. Court to give recorded by the Hydrographic Department of the Admiralty approval to each of the Orders at 19, 20 and 21 on the Order in the United Kingdom. I understand that the Hydrographic Paper. We have circulated to Hon. Members a memorandum, Department will be producing a new chart, marking the and I commend the proposals to the Court. experimental area early in the new year. The first of the Orders to which I refer appears as item These byelaws, Mr President, incorporate the minor number 19. This Order revokes the Regulations under which amendments necessary to be consistent with the charts the child maintenance bonus was payable, whilst providing which are produced by the Admiralty, and they are, indeed, for transitional provisions to have effect following the just a matter of feet, but on the ground, or on the sea, and I, discontinuation of the bonus. therefore, beg to move. The Order appearing as Item 20 revokes the regulations under which the back-to-work bonus was payable, whilst The President: Mr Gawne. providing for transitional provisions to have effect, following the discontinuation of that bonus. Mr Gawne: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. Item 21 inserts section 29 into the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000, as it was applied to The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is that the Isle of Man, giving the Department authority to make printed at 18 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please Regulations covering transitional provisions, savings et say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. cetera in connection with, in particular, the discontinuation of the child maintenance bonus. This Order also specifies that section 23 of that Act, which provides that the primary legislation under which Social Security Act 2000 the child maintenance bonus is to be repealed, shall come Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) into force just over a year later than in the United Kingdom, Order 2003 approved on 12th April 2004. I beg to move Items numbered 19 to 21 on the Order Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 25) Paper, Mr President. Order 2003 approved The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gawne. Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2003 approved Mr Gawne: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

19, 20 and 21. The Minister for Health and Social Security The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Delaney. to move: Mr Delaney: Yes, not one, but all of the proceedings That the Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. are moving so quickly – the Minister will agree that is an 24) Order 2003 be approved. [SD No 834/03] important matter – I was pleased to read the papers circulated, but I just wanted clarification on this. That the Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. Talking about the year which has gone by to make this 25) Order 2003 be approved. [SD No 835/03] come in harmony with the British Act, can the Minister tell me how much money the savings will be – a calculation; That the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security will they give an undertaking to guarantee that this amount Act 2000 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2003 be of money will be transferred to this group of ‘clients’, as I approved. [SD No 836/03] call them, of the Social Security; and can I have an assurance that when she says it proved unpopular with the clients, as The President: Now, Hon. Members, the Social Security Act 2000: the next three items are covered, and the Minister I understand they are, that they did a sort of a census on has asked if we can take the three at the one time. I propose those clients to find out whether or not they were satisfied, that they be moved at the one time, Hon. Members; I will because I am indicated by at least two that they will not be put them to you separately. Minister. happy with the changes, and I understand the Minister is working, I hope, for the people in relation to this, but we Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. need to have an assurance that this is in their best interests The Department proposes to discontinue the child and we are not just doing it to save the staff the maintenance bonus and the back-to-work bonus from 12th inconvenience, as seems to be the indication. April 2004 and use the funds relating thereto in another Thank you, Mr President. way in support of children. These bonuses have not been popular with customers and have placed a disproportionate The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, burden on the administration. Mr Henderson. Hon. Members will recall that the introduction of an alternative work incentive, in the form of a benefit run-on, Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. was approved by the Hon. Court at last month’s sitting. It is In looking at these Orders placed before us tonight, I proposed that the moneys which will become available from have got several queries, too, and some of which echo the the discontinuation of bonuses should contribute to the cost Hon. Member of Council’s questions just before, of increasing allowances for children aged five to ten, Mr Delaney. provided within the income support and income-based job We talk about ‘unpopular with customers’ – does that seekers’ allowance. mean people did not know, members of our community did

Sea-Fisheries Act 1971 — Sea-Fisheries (ExperimentalArea) (Amendment) Bye-laws 2003 approved Social Security Act 2000 — Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Order 2003 approved : Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 25) Order 2003 approved Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2003 approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 519 T121 not know how to make the claim? Or that the Department the past five years in this Hon. Court now be taken seriously do not make it widely known, as with some other benefits and, instead of the Department taking it as a confrontational in other areas, not necessarily the DHSS, but it has been criticism, to take it on board as an honest endeavour to well documented that people do not know about certain understand what is going on here. benefits in the past. We need that clarified first. I note that, in the past, when I have asked questions, the The next thing is that a benefit that could provide, or a Shirveishagh has seemed irritated by the fact that I should bonus that could provide, up to £1,000 is now being asked ask questions. I take exception to that, especially when, not to be rescinded – so very long ago, when we have been discussing the Members’ Interest Register, the Shirveishagh had absolutely Mrs Christian: No, no, no. no problem to stand up and question the Hon. Vainstyr Loayreyder, and in detail and ask for clarification. Now I Mr Henderson: That is exactly what you said, Minister. was happy for that to happen, because that is how the debates The issue, where a bonus could be paid up to a maximum should progress, that is exactly what I am asking here for, of £1,000, we are now being asked to change into something Eaghtyrane. I would like some assurances from the else. I understand exactly what is going on here and what Shirveishagh, when she comes back, that, indeed, we can we need to know is, in the new arrangement, folk who were have a little better and a little more simplicity on the previously eligible for this scheme will now be eligible for explanatory memoranda. considerably less, is my understanding of it. It is sort of a When the time limit has expired, I am going to come sharing out better of that benefit budget to more people, back to this hon. place and attempt to move another motion, but, in fact, the folk who will be eligible and anybody else if we cannot get to where we are at, to get some decent, who is caught in the net, it will actually be a figure of a lot explanatory, plain, ordinary. man-in-the-street-speak less amount, or possible lot less amount. memoranda, which I have noticed other Departments can There may well be savings to the Department, and do. They supply the more detailed back-up notes and a certainly in administration. I can see the logic in trying to simplistic note could actually have a rider on the bottom of redistribute the wealth of the particular budget for this it, that says that this does not represent all the detail, but benefit – that makes sense – but I am just wondering who is some of the major changes and the Hon. Members are getting disadvantaged here? Claimants, obviously, who were directed to go to more detailed notes, and that gets round eligible to claim up to £1,000 will be disadvantaged. I also the bit where Hon. Members may lose some of the detail. need to know that claimants at the minute or possible Thank you, Eaghtyrane. claimants who are eligible for this bonus under both parts of the Order, when this comes in and they have had half of The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Singer. the benefits under the old scheme paid, are they still going to be eligible for half the bonus? Who is going to inform Mr Singer: Thank you. Mr President, I am little them and what sort of PR has been done on this? Because confused about what the Minster said; perhaps she could there is obviously going to be folk caught in the middle explain to me more simply. here, when this comes into force and we need to know what I understand some of these payments are being is happening with backdating or transitional arrangements. withdrawn and that money is being redistributed as other The other thing that annoys me intensely and I have benefits. Can you tell me, are they going to the same people, raised this before and it has been subject of a motion here or are some people going to lose out while others gain? brought by me, is the complexity of the explanatory And, if so, how many are going to lose benefit, because of memoranda and explanation notes that have been put before the withdrawal, or is it going to the same people? And, whilst us, with regard to these. Now, it takes some scrutiny to pick the Minister says this system of payments is not popular, I through this lot to get an idea of what is happening and I do would ask with whom? Is it with the recipients? It certainly not think I still have an idea of what is happening and, even will not be popular with those, if any, who are going to lose when I ring up the Department from time to time to try and benefit. Perhaps the Minister could explain that further. build on that, I do not think that any Member in this Court Finally, could the Minister tell me, are we abolishing can honestly – apart from, maybe, the learned Attorney these benefits only for the reason that they are going to General – put their hand on heart and say they know exactly abolish it in the United Kingdom? Are we, in fact . . . is it and precisely to the last dot and ‘t’ what this means. like a late reciprocal agreement, because they are going to And it is a shame, because I have asked for better do it, we are going to do it? When, in fact, it might be explanatory notes in the past, I have put my resolution to advantageous to some people in our community if we kept Tynwald for better explanatory notes and knocked back, these benefits? knocked back, and the main reason for not having a better explanatory note, or an easier one to understand, with the The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gill. pros and cons simply laid out, is the fact that Hon. Members may lose some of the detail and vote on something they are Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. not understanding, or fully appreciate. And, to be honest, I First of all if I can begin by welcoming the briefings think that is the biggest load of old rubbish I have ever heard that we have been given the opportunity to attend, in relation in my life. to these Orders, and I thought they were extremely valuable I think what we should have here, we can have the and well presented. I do not have a great difficulty with detailed explanatory memoranda if we want, but we need this; I just look for some clarification on a couple of points, an overview as well, to get a decent layman’s understanding if I may sir? of these Orders. I do not think that is an unreasonable request What we are talking about is payments of £1,000 to child and I make that to the Minister now, that my requests over carers on income support or income-based jobseeker’s

Social Security Act 2000 — Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Order 2003 approved : Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 25) Order 2003 approved Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2003 approved 520 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day allowance, who move on to satisfy the DHSS work disregard some part-time earnings and that they can earn a conditions and, as I say, I welcome that. But I would like bonus in respect of their job seeking efforts, but, again, the the Minister please to reassure that she can demonstrate allowances there that have been claimed have been very whether this is not some form of pay off to parents and small and, in terms of both of these benefits, the value in carers from those allowances, nor will it have an adverse the last year was £5,813, which, in terms of the social affect on the welfare of the child or children concerned. security budget, is a very small sum indeed. It takes an awful And can the Minister please confirm that, after the initial lot of administration to record, week after week, how much disposable amount available to a family – i.e. paid to the child benefit is being received in respect of an individual carer without any control – that it must be spent on the needs claimant, or how much a person, who is on benefit, is coming of the child or children concerned? After that, if there is a in to declare in respect of part-time work, and, all in all, it subsequent reassessment, could the original arrangements does not really represent best use of our resources. reapply in subsequent episodes? In the light of that, we have looked at the personal Finally, and I do not offer any criticism or observation allowances which are paid in respect of those children of other than to seek clarification, could the Minister confirm people who are in receipt of income support. For those that these regulations are all based on the principle of the children in the Isle of Man there are varying scales and the welfare of the child or children as being paramount? lowest sum is payable to those children between the ages of five and ten years; a sum of £8.75 a week – the others are The President: Minister to reply. £13.90, £19.90, £26.40 and £38.70, depending on age. The Department has looked at this and considered that a better Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. There are a way of utilising this limited amount of resource, by number of queries about this and I will do my best to explain following the reciprocal agreement and getting rid of those the situation. It is set out in the memorandum; perhaps I bonus schemes that I talked about, is to redistribute the need to reiterate what the bonuses that we are talking about money which is in there for the bonuses in our budget, to are for. those recipients of income support who have children aged In respect of the child maintenance bonus, this is five to ten years and who are currently getting a lower something that can be earned by people who are unemployed amount of support for those children. and on income support. If they approach their spouse or the Current research indicates that, irrespective of age, it is father of the child for whom they are getting benefits from broadly the same cost for a parent to bring up any child. the state for maintenance, there is a corresponding bonus Now, Members have asked what is this going to do to present that they can earn when they move back into work, because qualifiers? It will do nothing. Present qualifiers will get their they are not relying on the taxpayer to fund all of their bonuses, which are one-off payments to people who have existence. In other words it is to encourage them to pursue been on income support for at least 26 weeks. What we the responsible parent for some support. What we are saying have also said is that, unlike the United Kingdom, we will is, we will not knock your benefit back for taking that action; allow people to continue to acquire rights to a bonus for a we will support you in it. year longer than is currently the case in the United Kingdom. That is the first benefit, now what are we doing about So that someone who is already in the system and earning a that benefit? The fact of the matter is that it is a reciprocal bonus, we are saying okay, if you do not get into work for benefit and it has been removed in the United Kingdom. another year, we will still pay you your bonus. But if We have looked at it in the Isle of Man to consider what we someone comes into the system tomorrow, or at least from should do here and noted, in the words of the Hon. Member April next year we are saying the scheme is being for North Douglas, ‘this is complex’. The rules for it are set withdrawn, so nobody currently is being detrimentally out here and the Hon. Member has found it complex; not affected. We are saying there will be no scheme in the future surprising, then, that claimants to our offices also find it and the money we have had in our budget to pay out on this complex. The fact of the matter is that the rules are so scheme up to now, we would rather use in supporting complex, that, in the last year, there have been only seven children in the five to ten age group, whose parents are claims for this bonus. We have said you can claim up to claiming income support in respect of them. £1,000 for this bonus; for that you have to be on income Will this have an adverse affect on children? I do not support for at least – believe so; it is specifically now going to be paid to income support recipients in respect of their children, whereas the A Member: Four years. bonus before was not in respect of anything in particular. However, I take the point made by the Hon. Member for Mrs Christian: Several years, two years, anyway – four Rushen, Mr Gill: ‘Do we expect people, or, in fact, require years, I will take the Hon. Member’s calculation on it. What people to spend the money we give them for benefit on we are trying to do is encourage people into part-time work, their children?’ We expect it, but we have no means of or into full-time work, and this is not being all that effective policing it, or enforcing it, and that is true of most of the in that way, and, clearly, it is not benefiting very many benefits (A Member: Hear, hear.) which are paid out by people – our Government. I hope, Mr President, that that has been helpful to people. A Member: Do they know? Mr Delaney: It is. Mrs Christian: – because they would prefer, actually, to get into work and get FIS. Mrs Christian: If I can recap, there are small amounts With regard to the other benefit, which is the jobseeker’s of money being saved, nobody in the present scheme will allowance provision, what we say there is that we will be detrimentally affected, the provisions in the Orders cover

Social Security Act 2000 — Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Order 2003 approved : Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 25) Order 2003 approved Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2003 approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 521 T121 transitional issues to ensure that those in the scheme 22 and, again, I call on the Minister for Health and Social currently will receive their bonuses and that, indeed, if they Security. continue to be out of work for another year, their bonuses will accrue points for that year. Is the scheme unpopular Mrs Christian: Mr President, we have before us a draft because it is unknown? No, it is unpopular, because it is Order. complicated and you have got to be out of work for quite a This draft Order is made under section 40 of the National long time, really, to get anything out of it, in any case. Health Service Act 2001 and amends the Medical Act 1985. There will not be any savings for the Department, This Act links the practice of medicine on the Island to the because we intend to use the moneys in a different way; the regulatory system for the profession, maintained by the bonus payments are single one-off payments, so people are General Medical Council under the equivalent UK Medical not going to miss – well, they will miss out in the future if Act 1983. they have had a payment now, because the scheme is going, The Order reflects amendments made to the equivalent however, if on income support, they will receive more UK legislation, recognising the changes to the structure and income support in the future. organisation of the General Medical Council and introducing The Hon. Member for North Douglas has again the concept of medical practitioners holding a licence to expressed his concern about complex memoranda. I can only practise. From 1st January 2005 this Order will require all apologise to the Court if they find that to be the case. We medical practitioners who wish to practise medicine on the have endeavoured in the Department – and I have Island, to hold a licence to practise issued by the General specifically asked my new colleague, in relation to social Medical Council. The retention of the licence will be security matters, who has come into this Court as an outsider dependent on the practitioner demonstrating an acceptable and with new eyes, if you like, in relation to social security standard of professional knowledge and compliance with matters, to look at our memoranda and see whether or not standards of practice every five years. The evidence for this he believes, with those fresh eyes, that they explain the will be submitted by the medical practitioner to the GMC situation adequately for Members. Now, clearly, we are not for review, using a system of appraisal and review, known meeting the needs of the Hon. Member for North Douglas as revalidation. Where a medical practitioner does not in spite of that, but I have to say that, in terms of the detailed participate in revalidation, or the documentation submitted memoranda, it is difficult to simplify complex issues. I do for review shows a poor standard of practice, then the GMC also take issue with the Hon. Member for his comment about may decide to suspend or remove a licence to practise. the Members’ Interests debate; I wonder why he particularly In this situation a medical practitioner will remain selected that one? registered, but will be unable to practise medicine. This I have no problem with the Hon. Member asking Order recognises the decision of the General Medical questions. I do expect, though, that he does endeavour to Council, should they decide to suspend or remove the recognise that some of these issues cannot be simplified to licence to practise of a medical practitioner resident on the a degree which reduces them to meaninglessness. However, Island. It therefore maintains the link between the practice I hope that this provision, Mr President, will meet with Hon. of medicine in the Island and the registration of regulation Members’ approval, because we do believe that it will of medical practitioners carried out by the GMC in the produce, in line with the provisions that we made last month United Kingdom. – where we have agreed that income support will run on for I beg to move, Mr President. four weeks, when a person starts a new job and that is a part of this whole equation of where we are putting the The President: Hon. Member for Glenfaba. resources – I hope that they will agree that this is a better way of using the resource for the benefit of a wider number Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second of claimants. and reserve my remarks.

The President: Now, Hon. Members, having listened The President: Hon. Member, Mr Singer. to the debate and the explanation given by the Minister, I think it is fairly obvious, Hon. Members, that 19, 20 and 21 Mr Singer: Could I refer the Minister to page 2, item 4 stand together as a package. In that case, Hon. Members, I in the insertion of 4(a) ‘Penalty for pretending to hold a am content to put the three items to you as a package, as licence to practise.’ one. So, what I will do is invite you to cast your votes I find it of great concern that the last line reads – ‘shall please, that 19, 20 and 21 be approved. Those in favour, be guilty of an offence’ for pretending to hold a licence to please say aye; and against no. The ayes have it. The ayes practise – ‘and liable on summary conviction to a fine not have it. exceeding £5,000.’ To me, whoever does practise without a licence is not insured and this fine does not reflect the seriousness of the offence. We are in here to protect the people of the Island National Health Service Act 2001 from such people and £5,000, if you are in private practice, Medical Act 1985 (Amendment) Order 2003 approved would not take very long to recover. I believe that, for such a serious offence, the conviction should include 22. The Minister for Health and Social Security to move: imprisonment and/or a fine, and I feel that I cannot vote for this, because I do not think that the answer here takes the That the Medical Act 1985 (Amendment) Order 2003 be matter seriously enough, and I would ask the Minister to approved. [SD No 768/03] take this and come back with a conviction that seriously reflects the offence, as I repeat, is not done in my opinion The President: Thank you, Hon. Members. We turn to here.

Social Security Act 2000 — Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 24) Order 2003 approved : Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 25) Order 2003 approved Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2003 approved National Health Service Act 2001 — MedicalAct 1985 (Amendment) Order 2003 approved 522 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

The President: Minister to reply. Licensing Act 1995 Drinking in Public Places (Designated Places) (Malew) Mrs Christian: Mr President, I recognise the Hon. (No. 2) Order 2003 approved Member’s concern. I think the issue here is that we are seeking to apply in 23. The Minister for Home Affairs to move: the Island the same terms and conditions for our medical practitioners as apply in the United Kingdom and the rules That the Drinking in Public Places (Designated Places) and regulations, if I may put it that way, which apply there (Malew) (No. 2) Order 2003 be approved. [SD No 818/ also. I am not in a position to go further, but I would suspect 03] that this penalty is not the only penalty which might be applied in respect of practising without a licence. I imagine The President: We turn then to the Licensing Act, Item there are other offences which would be involved in that, 23. I call on the Minister for Home Affairs to move. but, again, I am speaking off the cuff on that one, I am not sure. Mr Braidwood: Mr President, this Order is made under I note the Hon. Member’s concern; I would ask that he powers provided under section 76 of the Licensing Act 1995. might consider whether or not it is appropriate that we keep It designates areas in the parish of Malew as being places in line with the GMC provisions that apply in the United where drinking liquor in public will be an offence, once the Kingdom, for the purposes of ensuring that we are able to individual concerned has been requested by a police officer attract people to the Island to work. not to do so. The request for this area to be designated has come from Malew Parish Commissioners, working with the The President: Hon. Members, the motion I put to the police to address a problem that is causing increasing Court is that printed at 22, that the Medical Act 1985 concern within the parish. (Amendment) Order 2003 be approved. Those in favour, I would stress that it is only the areas designated within please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. the Order that are open to the public and excludes any place within the curtilage of any on-licence premises or club A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: premises. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my In the Keys – Ayes 19, Noes 0 name.

For Against The President: Hon. Member for Malew and Santon. Mr Anderson None Mr Cannan Capt. Douglas: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my Mr Quayle remarks. Mr Rimington Mr Gill Mr Gawne The President: Mr Speaker. Mr Houghton Mr Henderson The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Cretney I just really have a couple of questions to clarify, really, Mr Duggan Mr Braidwood from the Minister. I note that the issue of the football club Mrs Cannell is covered and the clubhouse - Mr Downie Mr Shimmin Mr Braidwood: And the school. Mrs Hannan Mrs Craine The Speaker: But my question relates, really, to the Mr Corkill Captain Douglas information note that is there, and I know I have raised this The Speaker issue with the Minister before, but I think it is important, maybe, to get it on the record. The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the It says in the information note to Hon. Members, under House of Keys, with 19 votes for, no votes against. paragraph 2.1, the last sentence,

In the Council – Ayes 4, Noes 1 it excludes any place within the curtilage of any on-licence premises or club premises. This power is in accordance with section 76 of the Licensing Act 1995. FOR AGAINST Mr Lowey Mr Singer Mr Waft The reason I wish to raise is just, really, that the Order, Mrs Christian because of the way the boundary is drawn, actually covers Mrs Crowe what is a licensed premises, which is the Malew Football Club. Can I just ask the Minister, does this therefore mean The President: With 4 for, 1 against, in the Council, that this Order does not apply to the premises which are the Hon. Members, the motion, therefore, carries. Malew Football Club? And is the curtilage literally the

National Health Service Act 2001 — MedicalAct 1985 (Amendment) Order 2003 approved Licensing Act 1995 —Drinking in Public Places (Designated Places) (Malew) (No. 2) Order 2003 approved Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 523 T121 building, or does it, in fact, extend to the football field? I On the curtilage of the property, of course, the Malew do not know if the Minister can answer that. Association Football Club was included and it will include And the second, really, which is just a general comment just on the periphery of the club house and will not extend and that is I do have a concern: I think it is a bit insensitive into the football field. that the only area covered (Mrs Crowe: Yes.) is a public In reply to Mrs Hannan, I think she answered her own sector housing estate. question in a way, in that it would be the police who would have to monitor the designated areas in Peel. I think it is all Mrs Crowe: Yes, quite right. of Peel, when I brought the Order, and it is only when a police officer spots somebody who is drinking in that area. The Speaker: Are we saying that there are no drinking I will take it up with the inspector, which will be C Division. problems anywhere else in Ballasalla? I do ask the Minister, whilst I know that he is a facilitator to some degree, but he Mr Houghton: He has been suspended. does make the Order, to take into account, with any local authorities who ask for Orders like this to cover areas, to be Mr Braidwood: I beg to move, Mr President. very careful how we deal with this, because it does give an impression that the only place in Ballasalla or in Malew, in The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to fact, that may have a drinking problem, happens to be a the Court is that printed at 23 on the order paper. Those in public sector housing estate. favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Now, it may well have a problem, but I do not believe it ayes have it. is the only area that has a problem and we come to another issue where, therefore, if I was somebody who was going to cause a nuisance in the Clagh Vane area or the Barrule Drive area, what I would do is just hop over the hedge and Procedural go into the area which is the new estate that has been built there and it has the potential of making a farce of the law, The President: Now, Hon. Members, I would like to quite honestly. I know I have raised this before with the Minister and I clear the next two items (A Member: Hear, hear.) if we just really want to make the point, because I do think we, could, and then call it a day. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) again, have to be careful. I know the Minister is endeavouring to be helpful to the local authorities, but, sometimes, local authorities can be a little bit close to the ground and they do not necessarily have a broader view. Building Regulations 2003 approved So, those are the two issues I wish to raise. I am not going to oppose the Order, but I would seek clarification 24. The Minister for Local Government and the Environment and I do want to express the concern I have about it being to move: focused purely on a public sector housing estate. That the Building Regulations 2003 be approved. [SD The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Hannan. No 829/03] Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. The President: I call on the Minister for Local I just rise, following on from the comments of Government and the Environment. Mr Speaker with regard to this. I hope that Members are not going to see this as a be-all and end-all of controlling Mrs Crowe: Mr President, the Department,under alcohol in public places, because my experience of a section 1 of the Building Control Act 1991, has been designated area in Peel is that it does not curb anything. empowered to make regulations to secure the health, safety, The drinking still goes on in the area. The bottles and all welfare and convenience of persons in or about buildings, are still lying around, especially on a Sunday morning. conserve fuel and power, and prevent waste, undue So, in actual fact, it is going to make absolutely no consumption, misuse or contamination of water. difference whatsoever. The only difference it is going to It has been over 10 years since the first building make is the police officer can go along and take drink out regulations were made, in May 1993, with some minor of people’s hands if they are too intoxicated – not just amendments in July 2000. The proposed changes are intoxicated, but too intoxicated – and, therefore, it is up to necessary to protect the health and safety of our citizens, the police to be proactive in relation to this. They are reduce the amount of the annual cost of energy to the nation certainly not in my area and maybe it is something that the and show our commitment that the Isle of Man is ready and Minister might like to raise with the police. willing to play its part in protecting our environment for future generations. The President: Minister to reply. The proposed changes are to enhance our regulations in respect of energy conservation and fire safety and to prevent Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. waste, misuse and contamination of our water resources. I will take on board the views of Mr Speaker. Yes, I Other changes proposed help reduce energy consumption think when you look at this Order, it probably does in existing dwellings. To encourage house owners it will be discriminate in areas of Malew, because I know that other necessary for an application to Building Control for approval Orders which I have brought forward to this Hon. Court to be made if energy-saving glazing is proposed to be used have designated a whole area, such as, I think it is Port in the construction of conservatories, porches, replacement Erin, and it incorporates all of Port Erin and does not windows and external doors. discriminate in areas. Hon. Members, I beg to move.

Licensing Act 1995 — Drinking in Public Places (Designated Places) (Malew) (No. 2) Order 2003 approved Procedural Building Regulations 2003 approved 524 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

The President: Hon. Member, Douglas North. the 1996 Act and it will immediately modify the effect of that Order. Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to The overall result of the two Orders will be that advances second and reserve my remarks. in the technology and changes to the regulatory bodies are taken into account, but otherwise the operational status quo The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is that will be maintained. Our Communications Commission will printed at 24. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. continue to carry out its functions, as it does at present. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Mr President, I would just wish to briefly describe the main provisions of the UK Communications Act 2003. Firstly, it provides for the transfer of functions to the Office of Communications, generally known as OFCOM, Communications Act 2003 (an Act of Parliament) from the bodies which currently manage the radio spectrum Extension to Isle of Man and regulate the UK communications sector, which, broadly Motion carried speaking, encompasses telecommunications and broadcasting. 25. The Chief Minister to move: Secondly, the Act replaces the current UK system of licensing for telecom systems, with a new framework for That Her Majesty be requested to direct by Order in the regulation of electronic communications, networks and Council that the provisions of the Communications Act services. Thirdly, it contains a scheme of recognised 2003 (an Act of Parliament) shall extend to the Isle of spectrum access and the power to develop new mechanisms Man with appropriate exceptions, adaptations and to enable broadcasting spectrum to be traded, in accordance modifications. with regulations made by OFCOM. Fourthly, the Act has procedures for appealing decisions The President: Item 25, Chief Minister. (Laughter) relating to networks and services and rights of use for Chief Minister, Item 25. spectrum and, lastly, the Act allows for the development of the current system for regulating broadcasting to reflect Mr Corkill: Item 25, thank you. (Laughter and technological change to accommodate the switchover from interjections) Sorry, I have been waiting so long for this analogue to digital broadcasting and to rationalise the item to come. Sorry, Mr President. (A Member: Agreed.) regulation of public service broadcasters in the United It would be very nice if every piece of primary and Kingdom. subordinate legislation having effect on the Isle of Man It is mainly in the area of broadcasting and radio could be enacted by the branches or moved in this place. spectrum management and licensing that the Act is relevant However, for a number of reasons, including the Island’s to the Isle of Man. international responsibilities and obligations and our Mr President, I should say now to Hon. Members that constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom, this there is some real urgency in this matter. The United is not always possible. Kingdom Government made a commitment to bring There are occasions when, because matters have OFCOM into operation before the end of this year and the implications outside the Island and because of our small transfer of powers to it is scheduled to take place on size, that the practical difficulties and costs involved make 29th December. If the Communications Act is not extended Manx legislation problematic at best. Radio spectrum and to the Island before that date there will be a gap in some broadcasting is one such area, where it is very difficult for elements of regulation. Any gap in the area of broadcasting the Island to operate its own system, particularly in this age would be manageable, as no UK licence broadcasters are of increasingly crowded airwaves. Some Members will based on the Island. Similarly, telecommunications is recall my hon. colleague, the Chairman of the handled on-Island, so there would be no problem, but for Communications Commission, in answering a Question the radio spectrum, however, any gap could well cause about digital broadcasting in another place, explaining at some length that we cannot break the laws of physics, difficulties for the Isle of Man. although we do try, Mr President. (The President: Yes.) The Secretary of State, who would, in theory, remain As Members will be aware, certain existing UK the regulator for the Island, will not be able to function in legislation concerning the radio spectrum and broadcasting this capacity without licensing staff and OFCOM will be is already extended to the Island. However, the UK’s unable to issue new licences during any gap period, as its Communications Act 2003 will replace or extensively powers will not extend here. New spectrum users, and those amend that legislation and, to maintain the present existing spectrum users with annual licences that expire, operational position, it will be necessary to have the 2003 could not be licensed. This would cause inconvenience, Act extended to the Island by an Order in Council. The delay and potentially economic damage to the Isle of Man. extension will, of course, be subject to such exceptions, Licensees affected would include taxi firms, ships, aircraft, amendments and modifications as our Communications amateur radio users and communications operators, such Commission and the Attorney General’s Chambers’ advise as Manx Telecom and, say, Domicilium. are desirable or necessary. An example would be, for instance, that yacht and ship It should be noted that the Communications Act refers radio operators who pass exams this winter and who wish to, and largely amends, the UK’s Broadcasting Act of 1996 to obtain operating licences, or those who need to renew and it is desirable for there to be an Order in Council their licences, would be unable to do so and this would extending certain provisions of the 1996 Act prior to the potentially result in serious economic loss for businesses, extension of the 2003 Act. In practice, the extension of the reduced benefits for consumers and loss of amenity for 2003 Act will come into force straight after the Order for hobby and social users of radio. Unauthorised use of radio

Building Regulations 2003 approved Communications Act 2003 (an Act of Parliament) — Extension to Isle of Man —Motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 525 T121 in that period could expose the person responsible to I would ask the Chief Minister to give an undertaking, criminal sanctions. The Attorney General’s Chambers, in in the future, that he will ensure that that does happen so at consultation with the Communications Commission, has least we are aware of what it actually is that we are doing? worked extremely hard on drafting the Orders so that we can meet the UK’s timescale and avoid the consequences I The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. have just outlined and, indeed, that would maintain the operational status quo. Mr Gill: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Mr President, subject to this Hon. Court’s approval for The comments I was going to make have been covered the principle of the extension, the Orders are ready to be by the Speaker, other than to add: would the Chief Minister made by the Privy Council. As is the usual procedure with agree that he has had ample opportunity to arrange a these matters, once the Orders have been made, they will, presentation about these matters, (A Member: Hear, hear.) of course, be laid before this Hon. Court for information of if nothing else, as described by the Speaker and would he Members. give that reassurance that this will be an exception to the In closing, I should say three things, Mr President. The rule and we will not find that this Court is being first is that the Islands of Jersey and Guernsey are in exactly marginalised? the same position as us and they have equivalent Orders similar to ours, ready to go. The second is that this matter is The President: Chief Minister. completely unrelated to the recent questions on broadcasting matters in another place. As I have said, the timing is purely Mr Corkill: Mr President, it gives me no pleasure to dependent on the United Kingdom’s implementation of their bring business to Tynwald Court in this order and Communications Act 2003 and, finally, I would wish to say disappointed I am to have to ask Hon. Members to approve that the proposed extension is policy neutral. It is merely to something this way round. take account of technological advances and changes to the It is unfortunate with the timing and with the notice that regulatory structure. has been given to Isle of Man Government, through the Therefore, Mr President, I would ask Hon. Members to Attorney General’s Chambers, that we find ourselves up please support this motion and I beg to move, sir. against the clock and it is an endeavour by us to beat that clock, to make sure that licences do have that status quo The President: Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. reality and that we do not expose legitimate users of radio to criminal prosecution because they drop into this gap, Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to which could potentially open up. second, sir, and reserve my remarks. It certainly, Mr Speaker, I would say, is very much the exception. My opening comments were that, in every The President: Mr Speaker. opportunity, I believe it is in the Isle of Man’s interest to have its own legislation and, in relation to broadcasting, in The Speaker: Yes, thank you, Mr President. particular, there is some really, I believe, unfinished business I do not have a problem with supporting what the Chief for the Isle of Man to deal with in due course, but the Minister has said for the reasons he has said, but I would technological and technical advance is so rapid. The wish to raise a matter that does concern me and, unless I timetable that the United Kingdom Government has allowed have missed something, no documentation. us is an impossible one and yet we have to, for the benefit We are being told we will see the Orders after they have of those people, maintain the status quo. been made. I just wonder if the Chief Minister could explain So, I am asking the Court’s indulgence on this occasion. why he did not feel it was appropriate to provide a brief I do not want to repeat it. I know, also, that it has created report to Members, with the draft Orders in – maybe the great difficulties within the Attorney General’s Chambers Orders are 20 or 30 pages deep or whatever, but, even if to get up to speed with this particular issue, because it is they had been available to look at for those who might have very complex. The UK Communications Act 2003 runs to had an interest in it. some 600 pages, I believe, and so I would invite Hon. I have to say I was not clear, really, what this was about Members that, when the Orders do come and are laid before, and I accept what the Chief Minister says and I accept the we do give them that full scrutiny and it is the wrong way timescale issue, but I would have thought it would have round, and I apologise, but, nonetheless, I would ask Hon. been appropriate for Members of Tynwald to have actually Members to please support the Order, bearing in mind those had before them a report, not for approval, but for constraints that we are working under. information, which at least we could have read and we could I do beg to move, sir. have then been in a position to understand, maybe a bit better and, if necessary, challenge it. The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to The reason I make the point, Mr President, is, whilst it the Court is that printed at 25 on the Order Paper. Those in might be straightforward on this occasion, sometimes these favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The Orders can have a significant effect on the Isle of Man and ayes have it. it is right that the Chief Minister and the Government has to come to Tynwald, because that is a protocol we have, seeking Tynwald’s approval; but I do think it would have been helpful to have had some documentation which was Procedural actually laid before us, or we had, and unless I have missed it and I do not remember seeing it, I am a little bit confused The President: Now, Hon. Members, at six o’clock I why that has not happened. indicated that we should continue to half seven, eight

Communications Act 2003 (an Act of Parliament) — Extension to Isle of Man — Motion carried Procedural 526 1T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day o’clock, and got your agreement to continue through that In the Council Ð Ayes 4, Noes 3 period. I indicated a few moments ago that we would finish FOR AGAINST two further items, 24 and 25. It seems to me an appropriate Mrs Christian Mr Delaney Mrs Crowe Mr Lowey time in which to adjourn, but I understand the Hon. Member Mr Kniveton Mr Waft for Michael wishes to comment. Mr Singer Mr Cannan: Mr President, I would like to move that The President: The combined vote, Hon. Members, 18 we continue for a further hour (Several Members: Hear, for, 10 against, the majority in favour, Hon. Members and hear.) and the reason for that is that it appears to me, without the required over 17, anyway, so we will continue, and I being presumptuous, that items 26, 27 and 28 may not be call on the Chief Minister to move item 26. contentious to the House and that the following two items could probably be finished within an hour, and I believe it would be in the interests of Members, then, that, tomorrow, they would be able to attend to their other constituency War Pensions Committee correspondence matters et cetera, instead of having to come Two members appointed to this Court, sir. I beg to move, sir. 26. The Chief Minister to move:

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, sir. That the following persons be appointed to the Isle of Man War Pensions Committee for the period expiring A Member: Agreed. on 15th July, 2007 - The Rev. Alec Smith Mr Earnshaw: I was going to second as well, sir. Mr Q B Gill MHK

A Member: We are all in agreement, I think. Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I am very pleased to request that this Hon. Court approve Mrs Crowe: We are all in agreement. the appointment of Mr Quintin Gill, MHK and the Rev. Alec Smith as members of the Isle of Man War Pensions The President: Those in favour – Hon. Member for Committee. Peel. Mr President, I beg to move, sir.

Mrs Hannan: Some of us have places to go tonight. The President: Hon. Member, for Onchan, (Laughter and interjections) Mr Earnshaw. Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. As the retiring The President: Hon. Members, I am in your hands and House of Keys Member for the War Pensions Committee, the longer we deliberate, the less time we have. (A Member: it gives me great pleasure to second the motion. Hear, hear.) Can I simply put it to you, Hon. Members, the Members already have information before them relating difficulty that I feel is that, if we continue, we may be to the Rev. Smith’s nomination and I would like to just continuing – although we say nine o’clock – we might be provide for a moment a little background information continuing until 10 or 11 o’clock. regarding the suitability of the Hon. Member for Rushen, Hon. Members, those in favour of continuing for a Mr Gill, to serve on this committee. Mr Gill, as many of further hour? Those in favour please say aye, against, no. you will probably know, was a serving member of Her The noes have it. Majesty’s forces and served in the Royal Navy from 1977 to 1981 on anti-submarine frigates. Subsequently, he was A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: with the Territorial Army as an infantryman from 1983 to 1989 with the Staffordshire Regiment, and, in recent years, In the Keys – Ayes 14, Noes 7 he has been the Chairman of the Port St Mary Branch of the British Legion, a position he still holds and enjoys. FOR AGAINST I think the background underlines his suitability for Mr Cannan Mr Anderson appointment to the War Pensions Committee, (A Member: Mr Rimington Mr Quayle Mr Gill Mr Gawne Hear, hear.) a committee which does a great deal of valuable Mr Houghton Mr Henderson work for former members of the armed forces and their Mr Cretney Mrs Hannan families and I, therefore, have no hesitation in Mr Duggan Mr Karran recommending the two nominees to Hon. Members. Mr Braidwood Capt Douglas Thank you, Mr President. Mrs Cannell Mr Downie Mr Shimmin Several Members: Hear, hear. Mrs Craine Mr Corkill A Member: Agreed. Mr Earnshaw The Speaker Two Members: Vote.

Procedural War Pensions Committee —T wo members appointed Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 527 T121

The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is that Obviously, we are all aware that the earliest Viking activity printed at 26 on the order paper. Those in favour, please say stretches back to 800 to 900AD, with permanent settlement aye; against, no. The ayes have it. the ayes have it. dated to 900AD and development of customs of assembly giving rise to Tynwald, a democratic form of social organisation, government and justice. Tynwald is first mentioned in The Chronicles of the Tynwald Hill – World Heritage Site Kings of Mann and the Isles in 1228 and in 1422. Official Motion carried references, following the takeover of the Island by English overlords, provide evidence for the organisation of the 27. The Hon Member for Middle (Mr˚Quayle) to move: ceremony, the modern day Tynwald being consistent with its earlier format, pointing to its historical integrity and That Tynwald, recognising that Tynwald Hill is the oldest continuity. For the last several hundred years, numerous continuous parliamentary site in the world, seeks that it descriptions show little change through time, with clear should accordingly be declared a World Heritage Site, official documentary evidence from the 1200s providing notes that it has been the policy of the Isle of Man justification for the claims that Tynwald is the oldest Government to obtain such a designation, and now continuous parliamentary tradition in the world. requests the Chief Minister to initiate any appropriate Turning to the efforts since 1984 by the Isle of Man action to ensure that this objective is secured as soon as Government to have the site designated as a World Heritage possible. Site, I imply no criticism of the Manx Government since that time, rather that we have been continuously let down The President: Item 27, Hon. Member for Middle. by various successive British Governments. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) However, 1990 saw the World Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President, and, firstly, may Heritage experts in committee agree that Tynwald Hill be I say this is a more appropriate hour, I believe Members included on the tentative list, which then saw Tynwald Hill will agree, than last month, when it was reaching 11 o’clock. on the official United Kingdom list and was proposed for In relation to the motion standing in my name at item inclusion on the UNESCO list. 27, this has arisen, originally, as a result of when I had the Sadly, the United Kingdom’s involvement in UNESCO pleasure to meet Lord Shutt of Greetland during a Manx lapsed, but, by 1997 to 1998, the United Kingdom advised parliamentary visit to the Palace of Westminster last year. that the previous list was defunct and the Isle of Man again He was very supportive of the Island seeking World Heritage put forward its choice of Tynwald Hill. Site status for the Island’s unique system of transport and, In 1999 the UK confirmed a final tentative list, minus later, sent me some relevant correspondence. Tynwald Hill, but Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland On my return to the Island, I made enquiries and found made their own nominations direct, with the Isle of Man that this matter had been considered, along with Laxey excluded from deliberations. From the most recent Wheel and Tynwald Hill. Accordingly, it had been correspondence in June 2003 from the Department of determined, as far back as 1984, that Tynwald Hill was the Culture, Media and Sport, it is suggested that a trans- preferred site to support full designation as a World Heritage boundary serial nomination of Tynwald and other similar Site. Mr President will recall my discussions with him, as, sites in Iceland and Norway could provide the basis for study indeed, will the Chief Minister, and I am grateful to the and eventual nomination as a group of sites. Chief Minister for pursuing the matter with the two Lord I believe that my motion, as drafted, is sufficiently Chancellors that have visited the Island this year and, more flexible to allow the Chief Minister to consider various recently, it was obviously drawn to the attention of David options: either to continue to press for World Heritage status Lammy MP, from the UK Department of Constitutional for Tynwald Hill alone, perhaps negotiating with UNESCO Affairs, when I had an opportunity to discuss the situation and the UK to have direct input, as, if left to the United with him, along with the Chief Minister. Kingdom, they have over 20 sites on their 1999 list to work To give a few brief details about the activities at Tynwald through, with only one nomination made each year by the Hill for its justified claim to be a World Heritage Site, which, UK to cover the whole of that region, the Crown if successful, would do so much to promote the Island dependencies and overseas territories; alternatively, it may around the world, encouraging tourism and other possible be possible to consider other options, such as the trans- trade benefits. Tynwald Hill is the embodiment of the oldest boundary serial nomination, perhaps in conjunction with continuous parliamentary tradition in the world, which, Norway and Iceland, with whom we have such close ties, despite the historical colonial power of the Island’s and we may make more progress with them than with the neighbours and sometimes rulers and the vagaries of United Kingdom. I understand that this approach would have political change, has survived unbroken for a thousand the benefit of not having to have the UK’s revision of the years. While the origin of the site lies in the Scandinavian tentative list to accommodate such an option. and pre-Scandinavian settlement of the Isle of Man, the site’s I should also like to mention that Andrew Rosindell MP, importance, in historic parliamentary terms, is of as we know, visited Tynwald this year as our guest. As many international significance and it occupies a pre-eminent of us also know, he is the current secretary of the All position in the continuing history of cultural and political Parliamentary Manx Group and, following Tynwald Day, development in Western Europe. he wrote to say how much he had enjoyed Tynwald, presided From 2000BC to 2000AD the area surrounding Tynwald over by Her Majesty, the Queen. He pledged, in his role, to Hill has been a focus for various ritual activities, including do all he could to support the Isle of Man and the Manx prehistoric, pagan and medieval burial, and, latterly, for people and looked forward to working with us in this Hon. public and parliamentary assembly for nearly 4000 years. Court to achieve this.

War Pensions Committee —T wo members appointed Tynwald Hill —W orld Heritage Site — Motion carried 528 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

Members may be interested to learn that he tabled an the motion (Interjections) and . . . Hon. Members have voted Early Day Motion on 10th July 2003 in the House of to continue into the evening so – Commons as follows: Mr Bell: Not that long! That this House salutes the people of the Isle of Man as they celebrate their National Day this week, upholding centuries of proud tradition, Mr Anderson: – we have the time (Interjection by Mr notes that the Manx annual Tynwald Ceremony dates back over 1,000 Houghton) on our hands. years and that this year s ceremony on Tynwald Hill was presided over by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, , recognises that the In doing so, Mr President, I congratulate the Hon. Tynwald is the oldest continuous parliament in the world, dating back Member for Middle (Several Members: Hear, hear.) for to 800 AD; and looks forward to the people of this unique British Crown his recognition of Tynwald Hill as the most important place dependency enjoying a further 1,000 years of self-government and on the Island, and, in doing so, I think that we can actually home rule, whilst retaining the special link with the UK. say that the Island will benefit from having one site going forward and this, maybe, has been a problem in the past In September, whilst in London, I was able to arrange and why it has not been progressed. to meet up with Andrew Rosindell and to discuss with him I am concerned, though, that we are relying heavily on our aspirations for Tynwald Hill to be awarded World the UK Government in putting this nomination forward on Heritage Site status, having first of all discussed this with our behalf, and I think the idea of having a trans-boundary the Chief Minister to ensure that it would not cut across our application, with other nominations, for a joint site is the existing efforts. best option. I would like to encourage the Chief Minister to I indicated to him that I intended tabling a motion to pursue that issue and to get into negotiations with other give this Hon. Court a chance to express its views and he countries that have a similar situation to Tynwald Hill; I very kindly indicated that he would be more than happy, if think that would make a better argument. it was felt appropriate, to table an Early Day Motion in the House of Commons in support of our efforts. I can see that, if the UK have 20 nominations on their The above information represents the basic justification list . . . I cannot see Tynwald Hill being at the top of their for seeking the inscription of Tynwald as a World Heritage priority, so, Mr President, rather than going through the same Site and forms a significant part of an application document information that the Hon. Member for Middle has given for such status. you, I would simply like to second this motion and commend Amongst other things, there would need to be a defining it to the Court. of the extent to the site, measures for the protection of the monument by the Manx National Heritage agency, and the Several Members: Hear, Hear. Vote! safeguarding of the site itself through appropriate planning policies relating to the surroundings of Tynwald Hill, and a The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne. continuing programme of scholarly investigations and research, identifying and rectifying shortcomings in what Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I would have is known about the site. happily seconded Mr Quayle’s motion as well. May I close, Mr President, by thanking Manx National I attended, back in February, a very interesting lecture Heritage (Interjections) and its director, Stephen Harrison, given by Dr George Broderick on this very subject of for providing me with much of the detailed information, Tynwald Hill, in which he very clearly identified the Celtic and I am very grateful to the Chief Minister for having nature of Tynwald Hill. It is a very important site. It is a circulated to Members last month the extensive paper on very ancient site and it certainly deserves our support. the background history and current status of our quest for What I am less happy to support, however, is pushing World Heritage Site status. forward with Tynwald Hill on its own. I cannot help but Finally, on my travels, I have often referred to the United notice in the notes that were circulated by the Chief Minister Kingdom as having the ‘mother of parliaments’, an that, in April 1999, the Isle of Man Government was advised expression well known to people, perhaps, around the world. by the UK’s Tentative List Review Committee that, although I am then able to say that, whilst the United Kingdom has it recognised the significance of sites such as Cregneash or the mother of parliaments, in fact, the Isle of Man has the Manx sculptured crosses, they decided that none of the sites grandmother of parliaments. was suitable. This motion in my name, Hon. Members – I urge There are other sites in the Isle of Man that are deserving Members to give their wholehearted and unanimous support of World Heritage Status and I think it is very important to the motion (Several Members: Agreed.), which can only that we do not ignore sites such as Cregneash, Laxey Wheel, do much to assist the efforts already in train and will be an Rushen Abbey and the others. But Cregneash has had a very authoritative record of the aspirations of this whole Hon. important part to play in the general history of this part of Court. the world. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my So, certainly, I would be very happy to support Mr name. Quayle. Tynwald Hill is an important site, but we should not lose sight of the other important areas in the Island that Mr Houghton: Well done! should be recognised as World Heritage Sites.

Several Members: Hear, hear. The President: Hon. Member for Peel, Mrs Hannan.

The President: Hon. Member for Glenfaba. Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I think we have got to really think on what World Mr Anderson: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to second Heritage Site designation will do for the Hill and its

Tynwald Hill —W orld Heritage Site — Motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 529 T121 environs. What it means is that you cannot change anything being crude when I say that, but Jack would know exactly – this is my understanding – that is very much controlled as what I am saying, and I am sure the Court understands to when it is designated. So I think that we have to exactly what I am saying. understand that that is, in fact, the case. So that is one of the Yes, my former constituency of Rushen and Cregneash areas. is a marvellous place, and it is one of the first places that I I am concerned, as the Member for Rushen has pointed bring my guests to, when they come to the Isle of Man, to out, that it does have a longer history than a Viking history explain our history, but my heart belongs in St John’s and I and I think we do ourselves no service if we say that the am sure that, every July, when you go there and go out, I Vikings came here and started a parliament. Why did they am sure you understand the meaning of the place. It is come here and start a parliament? They came because there historic. It is an ancient place and, yes, I agree with Mrs was something already in being (Mr Gawne: Hear, hear.), Hannan, there was a lot going on there before the Vikings and they developed on from that and took it to other places, came, too, but the reality is that it has got international because they saw that it was a way of being able to involve recognition because this is now the home of the parliament the people and tell them what the laws were. – the open-air field where people came because reading So I do not think we ought to get hung up on having a was not practised by the populace and they came for the Viking background. But I do not know – people like to think breast laws and Roy MacDonald gave me that. He is another of these men running around with horns on, jumping out of of the heroes of mine in the immediate past who taught me ships and raping and pillaging everywhere, as being about, if you like, my own particular history. something attractive that we should cling to, and I would So, Hon. Members, I think that there is general consent suggest that it is not something that we should cling to. I in this Court, but do not let us deviate from the main suggest that it is something that we should actually move resolution by saying, this, or the Laxey Wheel, or the away from. Ramsey Pier, or whatever. Remember, this is a World The other area is that, while we cannot count on the UK Heritage Site. I do believe that it is our best hope of getting to look after our interests, they are designated to look after recognition in its own right, and I support the Hon. Member. us in this particular area, because the United Nations do I commend him for his enthusiasm (Mr Singer: Hear, hear.) not recognise us and this is what we are asking. We are and I would urge the Court to give it unanimous support. asking the United Nations to designate a World Heritage Site. They only recognise the UK and if we are going to, Several Members: Hear, hear. then, cling onto Norway, or whatever, to try to get designation there, surely we are changing one controlling The President: Mr Speaker. country for another? And I think, if we are going to try to get designation, The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. then it should be on our own behalf. Obviously, we cannot Mr President, I applaud the Hon. Member for moving approach the United Nations, so we have to look for this as well, and I support him, but I would like to make a someone else to do it, but, in a way, does it make that much point that is important to me and I think important to the difference? We have got the oldest parliament in the world. people of the Isle of Man. And I know the mover wants to do it for tourist reasons, to Whilst this will be nice, really what matters is what we encourage tourists to come here to see these sites, but I just think of our Tynwald Hill and, as far as I am concerned, it question that we have to throw our lot in with somebody to is the most important site in the world, whether or not it is be able to do that, and I have great concern about this motion. recognised by other parties. I would also make the point that Tynwald Hill is safe, The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. because, as long as Tynwald survives, and as long as we look after it – and, therefore, yes, it will be nice to recognised Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I would rise as by the world heritage people – I do not think that we should an unashamed supporter of the resolution (A Member: Hear, do that on the background that it would be good for tourism. hear.) and an unashamed supporter when it was first (A Member: Hear, hear.) If it is important to us, and, if we introduced by Sir Charles Kerruish a few years ago, and for think people should come and visit it, we do not need the reasons that were then expressed. anybody to sanction it. We go out and sell it – and, to be Now I suppose – I do not know whether I am the only quite honest, we see the importance of it to the people of person in this Court now that has actually been to the original the Isle of Man every year: some years it fluctuates, where Icelandic Tynwald, which was where we are based on. The we have a lot of people, and other years there are less people, difference between us and Iceland, of course, is that they but we know what it means to us and, as long as we know finished their open air parliament, their Althing, in 1932, and do not forget, that is what is important. so it is now not a regular annual open-air gathering. I will be supporting the motion because I do not disagree I think the site at St John’s is historic and it is of world with it, but I do think those riders are important, really, to significance, because it is still continuing. just put on, because I think that we should say, first and I rise to my feet to support the resolution and to say to foremost, the Isle of Man, as a nation, recognises, without the Court, ‘if you want to be single-minded and achieve any doubt, the importance of Tynwald Hill to its whole things – and I am reminded, sir, of our good friend, who we being, and there is no doubt, without Tynwald and Tynwald paid tribute to this morning, Jack Nivison, a famous saying, Hill, what we have today would not be here. We would not and he said it on more than one occasion – ‘Before you can have the infrastructure we have. We would not have the have rabbit pie, you have first got to catch the rabbit, and if laws we have. It is all part of us. you put too many rabbits in the field, the dog does not know One thing I would like to just seek clarification from which rabbit to chase.’ (A Member: Hear, hear.) So I am the Hon. Member, and I do not know if I picked him up

Tynwald Hill —W orld Heritage Site — Motion carried 530 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day correctly, but I did think I heard him say that, as part of can be recognised with the site that they have – an overseas this, it would be a proposal that the site be controlled and territory – which has obviously had to lobby through the secured by Manx National Heritage. Now, as Members Foreign and Commonwealth Office to get some recognition, know, I am the Vice-Chairman of Manx National Heritage, then there is no reason why somewhere like the Isle of Man, but I have to say that, if that is the view, I do not agree. through its relationship with the Department of (Several Members: No.) My view is it is controlled, it is Constitutional Affairs, cannot be recognised, as well, to be owned and secured by us on behalf of the people of the Isle equally as valid in wanting to achieve this. of Man. (Mrs Crowe: Absolutely!) and it should always So I thank the Hon. Member, and I do ask Hon. Members stay under that control and be secured by Tynwald Court to support and, if the motion is successful, I will certainly and nobody else (Several Members: Hear, hear.) and I want do my best to do what the motion says – which actually to make that absolutely clear – says ‘initiate.’ I believe action is already happening, but we do need further action and further activity and I thank the Mrs Crowe: Well done! Member for his interest.

The Speaker: – without any doubt at all. I do not believe Several Members: Hear, hear. it is the role of Manx National Heritage to control this site. This site belongs to the people through Tynwald Court and Mr Cannan: Vote! no-one else. The President: Hon. Member for Middle to reply. The President: Chief Minister. Two Members: Well done, Martin. Mr Corkill: Just briefly, Mr President, on the basis that this Hon. Court is about to give me a job to do, I thought I The Speaker: Hear, hear. ought to just make a few comments. I would like to congratulate the Hon. Member for Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President, and may I, firstly, lobbying hard in this particular area (The Speaker: Hear, thank my seconder, Mr Anderson, Hon. Member for hear.) and I think we are all going to get different levels and Glenfaba, and indeed all Members who have contributed. I different angles of satisfaction, if we are to make progress do not think we have had too many dissenting voices and I in this particular nomination, but I think, if you look at the am very pleased indeed with the support that has been shown paper that I did circulate a month ago – which I thought by those who contributed to the debate. might be helpful for the debate and for the mover of the I think, really, the theme running through the motion, and I thank him for acknowledging that – to show contributions is that, perhaps, it is favoured a trans-boundary some of the history and how complicated the whole scenario serial nomination, but I think, no doubt, the Chief Minister is, and to show the reality of how small we are in the great will take anything into account, should this motion be sway of the world, and being selected on things that are successful, and consider the contributions that have been important to us. . . made. So, I would heartily echo what Mr Speaker says: if we I think, really, rather than deal with individual do not succeed in this, we are all going to love Tynwald to contributions – death still. It will not be hinging on whether UNESCO think it is a great place or not, but I think the first job we have to Several Members: Hear, hear. do is to convince the UK of the worthiness of this, and I think we are going to be dependent upon our relationship Mr Cannan: When you are winning, sit down, Martin! through the Department of Constitutional Affairs, which, I have to say, currently needs improving in relation to them Mr Quayle: – there is just one, though, I would reply acting on our behalf, which they have a duty constitutionally to, because I think others have been answered by what the to do so and so we have to keep lobbying. Chief Minister has already said, and that was Mr Speaker. When Mr Lammy was here on his visit this was raised He was seeking clarification about the Hill and its environs, as part of the Council of Ministers’ agenda (Mrs Crowe: and whether or not it would be controlled by Manx National Yes.) and I have to say he was a bit luke-warm on it, whereas Heritage. In fact, that was not the case; what I said is that, the previous Lord Chancellor, Lord Irving, was very upfront as part and parcel of trying to secure World Heritage Site about it and engaged in the process and in the dialogue status, there would be extra work required to be done in straight away, and we had the most encouraging letter from investigating at Tynwald Hill. Certainly, I believe I that Lord Chancellor. mentioned earlier that it would be up to Tynwald itself to I have not really had a chance with the current Lord make the decision as to protecting it for the future. Chancellor to promote this, but he is aware that this is what So I hope that that reassures Mr Speaker. Government and what Tynwald want, and I believe what the people of the Isle of Man would wish: to see some world The Speaker: Thank you. recognition of what is unique in the world. So I certainly would ask Hon. Members to lobby hard Mr Quayle: Mr President, I am pleased to urge all wherever they come across people of influence, because, Members to vote for this. as is said, the tentative list that the UK is preparing is likely I think I would also mention the fact that, no, we are not to surface in 2006 and, as we all know, the years go by very doing it for tourism or any other reason; we are doing it for quickly. There will already be people lobbying hard for their what has been described, we are very proud to attend particular sites, and I think, if small countries like Bermuda Tynwald Hill. (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) That is the

Tynwald Hill —W orld Heritage Site — Motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 531 T121 proudest day of anybody’s life: to go out there on Tynwald Redress of Grievance of Leslie Cook and Winifred Cook Hill and certainly we are all very proud of that, and anything appointed by the Court at the December 2002 sitting that we can do to share that pride that we have in our Island shall have powers to take written and oral evidence nation, anything that we can do to hope that others can come pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of the Tynwald Proceedings along and join us for that special day and throughout the Act 1876. year, then I believe that is something very worthwhile for this Court to be supportive. The President: We turn then to Item 28, and I call on Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton. name. Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. Several Members: Hear, hear. Well done. Mr President, this is purely a technicality, sir. When the Hon. Member for Onchan moved this Petition for Redress The President: Now Hon. Members, I put to you, then, to a Select Committee in December 2002, the powers the motion printed at 27 on your Order Paper. Those in appropriate to such a potential investigation were not favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. included in that motion. This motion is brought before the Court merely to gain A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: the appropriate powers in order that the Select Committee might function properly, sir, and I beg to move. In the Keys – Ayes 21, Noes 0 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson None Mr Cannan Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my Mr Rodan remarks. Mr Quayle Mr Rimington A Member: Vote. Mr Gill Mr Gawne Mr Houghton Three Members: Agreed. Mr Henderson Mr Cretney The President: The motion, Hon. Members, is printed Mr Duggan at 28. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes Mr Braidwood have it. The ayes have it. Mr Downie Mr Shimmin Mrs Hannan Mr Bell Mrs Craine Manx Electricity Authority Mr Corkill Chief Executive’s Emoluments Mr Earnshaw Capt. Douglas Amended motion carried The Speaker 29. The Hon Member for Peel (Mrs Hannan) to move; The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the House of Keys, with 21 votes for, no votes against. That pursuant to section 3 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876 the President of Tynwald do order the Manx In the Council – Ayes 7, Noes 0 Electricity Authority to produce the Authority’s records of the current salary and any other emoluments of their FOR AGAINST Chief Executive and communicate them to Hon Members Mr Lowey None no later than the sitting of the Court in January 2004. Mr Waft Mr Singer Mr Kniveton The President: Item 29. Hon. Member for Peel. Mrs Christian Mr Gelling Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I move this motion in the Mrs Crowe light of questions asked in the past month and replies received to questions relating to emoluments for Chief The President: With 7 votes for, none against in the Executives throughout Government and Statutory Boards Council, the motion, therefore, carries. of Tynwald. All emoluments were disclosed, with the exception of the Chief Executive of the Manx Electricity Authority. We were told later that there was a confidentiality clause Select Committee on the Petition for Redress of Grievance of Leslie Cook and Winifred Cook to cover the emoluments of that Chief Executive. Powers granted to take written and oral evidence Now, the Manx Electricity Authority is a Statutory Board of Tynwald and, therefore, when requested, the disclosure, 28. The Hon Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) I feel, should have been made. However, this was not the to move: case. The Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876 gives Tynwald the That the Select Committee to consider the Petition for authority to request this information and, therefore, I move

Tynwald Hill —W orld Heritage Site — Motion carried Select Committee on the Petition for Redress of Grievance of Leslie Cook and Winifred Cook — Powers granted to take written and oral evidence Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried 532 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day that the President do order that the Manx Electricity to it surfaced from advice that came from the Clerk of Authority produce the Authority’s records of current salary Tynwald’s Office, and my other advice – which is obviously and other emoluments to the Chief Executive and the normal route for me as Chief Minister – is from the communicate them to Hon. Members no later than the sitting Attorney General. of this Court in January 2004. So I wish to say to Hon. Members that we have, at some Eaghtyrane, I beg to move the motion standing in my length, considered this issue and we fully appreciate the name. feelings that Hon. Members have got in relation to this disclosure of the Chief Executive’s salary. In future, the The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne. situation cannot be allowed to go forward and that the best way to deal with this from a corporate governance point of Mr Gawne: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. view, is to develop some principles which can be applied to all, but we have a current situation to deal with in relation The President: Chief Minister. to the Chief Executive, who, in all good faith and the board also, in all good faith, have developed this confidentiality Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I do wish to situation. move an amendment to Mrs Hannan, the Member for Peel’s, My time in this Hon. Court, Mr President, has generally motion, and, before formally doing so, the hon. mover did seen that things are not dealt with in retrospective fashion refer to the fact that reference had been made to and that, in fact, dealing with something after the event is confidentiality clauses at Question Time. not always very fair to people, but we learn by what has From memory, when answering questions, I may well happened in the past and we set new benchmarks for the have used that expression at one time, but, certainly, when future, I hope, by moving my amendment, which says, answering a Question on 18th November in this Hon. Court I did – and I referred to Hansard – say in response to a Delete the words after ‘that’ and substitute - particular Question from the Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr ‘Tynwald respects the actions of the Manx Electricity Gill: Authority which was acting within the law when entering into a confidential contract of employment with the Chief Mr President, although is there is no confidentiality clause as such, I Executive, but supports the Council of Ministers ensuring am advised that both parties consider that the contract is strictly that in future public sector Contracts of Employment confidential. would not be confidential.’ So, there was this debate about a confidentiality clause, I do hope Hon. Members will support the amendment and I did try to correct that at the time, but I understand as the way forward, so that we do not get in this situation Hon. Members’ feelings in relation to how she has moved again. this motion. Hon. Members will be aware of the difficulty that we The President: Hon. Member, Mr Downie. had in obtaining the details of the salary. A Written Question was submitted at October Tynwald, as the hon. mover has Mr Downie: Yes, thank you, Mr President. mentioned, and this was followed by an Oral Question in I rise to second the amendment that has been moved by November that I have just referred to. the Chief Minister and, while there is no perfect solution to This matter, Mr President, has been discussed at great this matter, the amendment being moved by the Chief length by Ministers in the Council of Ministers, and it is Minister represents, perhaps, the most practical and recognised that the Manx Electricity Authority has acted pragmatic way forward, given the circumstances. quite properly under the Electricity Act, when it entered While parliamentary scrutiny is an important principle, into a contractual agreement with its Chief Executive, and which is fundamental to our democracy, it must be that may include a provision to protect the confidentiality recognised that the MEA operates in an intensely of the agreement. The Council also concluded that, having commercial environment, where the making of agreements said that there is a need for transparency and statutory which are subject to confidentiality provisions, such as the boards, they should ensure that the contractual agreements one we are discussing today, is the norm. The Chief they enter into do not contain confidentiality elements which Executive is employed on a fixed-term contract. He is not a prevent financial information being provided to civil servant. The board of the MEA has, in my view, acted Government. entirely properly in this manner. There are also broader issues here, Mr President, relating The board has done nothing wrong in agreeing with to the methodology of applying the principles of corporate Mr Proffitt that the terms of his contract of employment governance to all statutory boards and I wish to undertake, are confidential. Indeed, the board has done no more than too, Hon. Members, that these corporate governance carry out its responsibilities under paragraph 3(1) of principles need to be developed and that the Council of schedule 1 of the Electricity Act 1996 which states, Ministers is prepared to do this in future. I would urge Hon. Members to consider whether the The authority may appoint such officers as it thinks fit at such use of section 3 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876 is remuneration and upon such conditions of service as the authority may the most appropriate means of achieving the correct result. determine. In saying that, Mr President, I am fully aware that I did make reference to that piece of legislation in responding to Clearly, under the Electricity Act, the MEA has the a Question. I did offer it to Hon. Members to consider authority to enter into agreements with members of staff whether that may be the way forward. In terms of the issue which are subject to confidentiality provisions and it would, of the Tynwald Act that we are talking about, my reference therefore, be wrong for us today to seek to overturn any

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 533 T121 such agreement which has been entered into by both parties but, through Mr Proffitt and the board’s hard work and those in good faith. Having said that, Hon. Members, I agree that of all the staff of the MEA – because it is a team effort – the principle of parliamentary scrutiny is important and, they have put us on the world heritage map for industry. because of this, I very much support the Chief Minister’s Now we have got an inter-connector link and we can actually amendment, which, while protecting the confidentiality of sell electricity back to the UK. We have grasped the nettle. the existing agreement between Mr Proffitt and the board, We have gone with his business ideas and all the rest of it. makes it quite clear that such future agreements must not What I am frightened of, Eaghtyrane, is that we may be confidential. lose all that expertise and hard work that has gone into it, Thank you. through no fault of parliamentary scrutiny, but the fact of an unwittingly-placed Question that was seeking to do A Member: Hear, hear. something quite the opposite. So, I think we need to be careful where we are at here tonight, Eaghtyrane, and look The President: Mr Henderson, Hon. Member for at the real facts of the matter, which I have detailed. Douglas North. Following on from that, the Chief Minister has moved an amendment to the motion. I have two differently worded Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. amendments. I think the latter would be the current one I must admit I feel partly responsible we are at this that the Chief Minister wishes to run with and I have no juncture tonight – basically because it was my initial problem with that. That seeks to address the balance and, question in the House of Keys a few weeks ago which was in future, I think the Minister for the DTI has said that there directed to CEOs of all Government Departments and should be transparency, which is fine. requesting certain items of job description and job purpose However the motion is amended, I wish to move an in the process for a project I am working on, which will amendment myself to add on to the tail of that, which, become apparent as we go through the legislative calendar. basically, says, What I was not wishing to do, Eaghtyrane, was to highlight specifically one person and, indeed, highlight them to such ‘Add at the end – a degree where they have been under public scrutiny now “and that the Court fully supports the work of the Chief for several weeks, pulled through the press and the media Executive and the current board of the Manx Electricity to their embarrassment and stress, and, no doubt, family Authority.”’ embarrassment, and for that I can only offer my apologies for my part in playing that particular role. so that they know they do have our full support and do not Although, as I say, Eaghtyrane, the ideas behind what I feel singled out. was trying to do will become apparent later on, I was not It has been circulated, I think, in my name and I beg to specifically trying to highlight any particular chief executive move the amendment and I hope somebody feels that they singly. can support it, Eaghtyrane. I did, however, afterwards have a private conference with the Minister for the DTI, who explained the situation behind Mr Downie: I am pleased to second, sir. the Chief Executive of the MEA’s contract, which I fully accepted and the confidentiality clauses explained, and I The President: Hon. Member, Mr Singer. was happy at that and I was happy not to pursue the matter any further in that direction, as I had all the information, Mr Singer: Mr President, I was going to stand up to really, that I was after in relation to Government second the amendment by the Hon. Member for Douglas Departments which I was seeking. North. To that end, Eaghtyrane, I think the matter should rest. I I think, whether the Hon. Member for Peel likes it or am happy with the explanation that was given to me. I do not, the fact is, as the Chief Minister has pointed out, there not need to seek it any further. It is the knock-on effect of is a confidential contract of employment, and I do not see that where Members have picked up that there was a blank how anybody can expect that confidence to be broken. It in the chart offered and they have sought further was made in good faith and, therefore, it should be regarded transparency from that, but I can assure every Hon. Member in good faith. here that I was happy with the explanation supplied to me I do support the Chief Minister’s amendment, because I and that is fine. think it does look to the future, but the various questions What has happened, though, is one particular man has and motions that have gone round over the last few weeks, been singled out through the press and he is not able to I think, have been misconstrued outside as some kind of answer for himself in any particular way or offer any form criticism of the Chief Executive of the MEA, whether the of defence. Having said that, there have been remarks made Members say yes or no. which have undoubtedly upset Mr Proffitt, and I do not see I think that is the way it has been seen, criticism of the why they should have been made in the first place, or why work of the Chief Executive and the board, and I believe – they need to be spun to appertain to him, when, in fact, and I was going to say, without this amendment by the Hon. what we are talking about is a hard-working executive Member for North Douglas – that I would personally express (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) who has brought to this Island full support to Mr Proffitt. I think that his leadership has some of the best projects we have ever seen. In fact, the brought wonderful success to the MEA, on a level which power station that is due to come on line at the minute is has not been seen before on the Island and I think that this one of the top 10 in the world and recognised in the world should be acknowledged. And by incorporating those trade magazines as such. feelings into words, and as a further amendment, I believe I know we have just debated the Tynwald heritage site, that this Chief Minister’s amendment is strengthened and,

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried 534 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day therefore, I am very happy to second the further amendment that through negotiation quite satisfactorily, and by the Hon. Member for Douglas North. appropriately. Sir, the amendments that are before us both from the The President: Hon. Member, Mr Gill. Chief Minister and from Mr Henderson are satisfactory, but I would hope that the Chief Minister will give us a categoric Mr Gill: Eaghtyrane, I am just reflecting on some of assurance that we will not have to find ourselves in this the comments that Mr Henderson, Member for Douglas position again, and I hope, when we do have a new Chief North made, that he asked a Question which has unwittingly Executive of the MEA, that somebody . . . Perhaps if I have led to a sequence of events, which has led us to the issue the foresight to remember, I will ask the same question and before us today. will have a full answer at that juncture. I think if, confidentiality clauses aside, everybody who had been asked the question had told us, that would have The President: I want to make it plain, Hon. Members, been the end of it, (Interjections) we would have thought, that the Chief Minister does not have a right of reply to the ‘that is done, that is the end of it’. amendment. (Interjections) My understanding is there If there is a confidentiality clause and, if that is legal, would be a requirement for the alteration to the law. Hon. then we have to live with that, but, sir, I have a concern that Member, Mr Karran. we should not have confidentiality clauses and I actually applaud the Hon. Member for asking the Question, because Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, let us get back to the principle it has flagged up an issue which I do not think anybody in what the Hon. Member for Peel is here for. this Court has felt is a suitable arrangement – that we have It is not about personalities. It is not about the MEA, or confidentiality clauses, when, commercial issues aside, at the Water Board, or the chairman of the Home Affairs report. the end of the day, people are being paid out of the public It is about public knowledge and the public having a right purse. The public have a right to know how much they are to know what these officials are getting. entitled to. That is an opinion. Others may disagree with I am outraged by some of the Members in this House, that. how they are trying to turn it into something personal. It is I do not have a problem with the reassurance the Chief not personal, Member for North Douglas. It is about the Minister has given me. In fact, sir, I was going to move rights of the public to know what is happening. This is not exactly the same motion that Mrs Hannan has seen fit to revolutionary stuff or Karl Marx, it is common sense. The move. And I was reassured that, on the basis of fact is that, if it was a plc or a company, they would have to. reasonableness, this Chief Executive – who I have no quarrel It would never be allowed and what I am concerned about, with, because he is doing a great job in everything I have Eaghtyrane, I believe this has all been brought in to cloud seen – and I am less concerned with how much he is paid the issue. than the principle of public money not being accountable – The truth is the Council of Ministers and the Department of Trade and Industry do not want it to be known, because Mr Karran: That is the point. they would be personally embarrassed if they find out how much is involved and if they . . . But, Eaghtyrane, the issue Mr Gill: And so I do not have a problem. We will deal around this House is, ‘Do you support transparency? Do with that in the future. I want a cast-iron reassurance that it you believe that, if he was working for a plc, they would will happen, not that the MEA will say, ‘Well, we can do it, know, as shareholders. The people of the Isle of Man are anyway, and that is what we think of Tynwald resolutions,’ the shareholders. They have a right to know and that is the because that still is hanging in the air. So, I want some way it should be, but do not try and put some idea that it is reassurance to an absolute water-tight on that . . . something personal. It is not. It is nothing to do with And the other thing, sir, I would say is – I do not know personalities. It is nothing to do with the MEA. It is to do if I am the only person who has been warned about this – with a fundamental principle that the Hon. Member for Peel that, if we pursue this, there will be resignations. Well, if is totally right in saying that it is public money that is push comes to shove, sir, and the right of Tynwald to be involved. able to ask questions and gain information that they are It is a public authority. If it was a public company, then, entitled to, is to be challenged by people saying, ‘Well, we Eaghtyrane, it would have to be made available. I hope that will go.’ Well, no centre forward can be bigger than the this Hon. House will not allow . . . and the idea that somehow team, sir, however good they are. (Interjections) about this issue is a thing of confidence. It is nothing of the sort. It is an issue of public knowledge and public Mr Corkill: Unless they play for Everton. information and there should be no apologies. As the Hon. Member for Rushen said, if his salary was to have come Mr Gill: Everton are facing exactly that difficulty and I up, it would never have been even noted but, Eaghtyrane, use that analogy and that is not a criticism of Mr Proffitt. I what I am concerned about today is, once again, the Council respect him and I admire the leadership he has offered, but, of Ministers, as I say, are we hearing the things around to sir, I do put down a marker and I hope that the Chief Minister try just to cloud the real issue, because their concern about will respond specifically that it is an issue that we want what the actual wage structures are? some cast-iron reassurance, that we will not be in this I believe that this Hon. House should support the Hon. position again, but I will come back just to conclude where Member for Peel and the issue of transparency on the issue I started, saying, ‘If we had been told the amount, it would that this is not revolutionary stuff. As I have said, this would have been, “Oh, well, that is very nice for him” and that be a normal procedure in any publicly quoted company, in was the end of it,’ because it is a matter for the MEA to my opinion. I hope the Hon. Member is successful and let determine that, and I am confident that they have determined us get away from all this personalisation. We do not need

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 535 T121 it. We just need the right for the general public to know A Member: Who? who is getting what, as far as the public money is concerned. Mr Corkill: Tynwald Court is. The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Lowey. Mr Lowey: I am not going to be put off with the threat Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. that, somehow, if something I say in here may upset the I am amazed at the Chief Minister’s amendment. I really Chief Executive or a director, or the group of directors on am amazed. I sometimes wonder: do we ever learn in this the Electricity Authority. Court? Do we ever learn in this Court? We got ourselves I am sorry. The Minister for Trade and Industry has said, into problems with self-regulation and this is what we are ‘Confidentiality and parliament is important’. It is not being told now, the board have agreed with their Chief ‘important’, it is paramount, and I think it is quite amazing Executive, who is a member of the board – the chief executives – let us refresh ourselves – chief executives of the Financial Supervision Commission earn Mr Karran: Was a member. in excess of £150,000 – this was quite open, we know what they were getting. Chief executives of Departments are Mr Lowey: Well, was a member, then they made him getting £70,000 or £80,000, or whatever the figure was, it Chief Executive and then they agreed a confidentiality was announced. There is a variance there, huge, and the clause. Let me just be quite clear. It is self-regulation – normal man in the street says, ‘Cor, what are we paying that for?’ Is it because this gentleman is getting more than Mr Karran: It is not acceptable. that? (Several Members: Yes.) Well, that says it does not matter. Well, it may not matter, Mr Lowey – and that is totally unacceptable. If the Isle but at least the public should know that is what he is getting. of Man has learnt something in its recent history, then self- What is so wrong with knowing? We have just this afternoon regulation is not the route to go down. been debating, Members, and it is a public utility . . . Now, I can recall moving the 1996 Electricity Act and, in it, the reality of this is this is a public utility. It is owned by the the pressure that I was placed under, as Minister, was people of the Isle of Man – all right, in custody of Tynwald because I removed the Chief Executive from the board . . . But the ownership is the people of the Isle of Man (Two because it was Chief Executive and member of the board Members: Hear, hear.) and I think they have a right to know. and I divorced the two. I was not interested in what he was getting – get on with The Bill was written that it could. That was the it! Because I am now told I am not going to be told, I want compromise, that, in the future, they may, but it was quite to know why. Now that is a Manx trait. (Several Members: clear that the Chief Executive carries out the instructions Confidentiality.) You might say I am being cussed. All right, of the directors. That was the reason why they should have I am being cussed. I want to know what the gentleman is been divorced. That was why the legislation was introduced earning, and I do not want private and confidential briefings. in 1996. The floor of Tynwald is where it should be announced. I have to say this idea that, somehow, the Isle of Man cannot manage the Electricity Authority without Mr Proffitt Mr Corkill: Take legal advice. – and, by the way, I have never got a scintilla of criticism about Mr Proffitt in any way, shape or form – but, if you Mr Lowey: And I do believe self-regulation is wrong tell me that the Isle of Man cannot exist without the presence in principle. It is certainly wrong in this place, in this of Mr Proffitt, then I say to you, ‘The Isle of Man will exist. particular instance. It existed before he was made Chief Executive, and it will I believe the Member for Peel is absolutely right (A exist after he has gone.’ That is number 1. Member: Hear, hear.) and I do not believe the Chief Number 2, I have to say, is a part-time job. And it is a Minister is correct in saying, ‘Ah, but tomorrow. We will part-time job. Mr Proffitt was a director – I presume he still do it tomorrow, when we have got a new Chief Executive.’ is, a matter of public comment, and it must be right, because That is not good enough, Chief Minister. I believe in it was in the pink pages of the local press as a director, now, transparency and I believe it ought to be now. of Barclays Bank. So he has got time to do that, as well as run this. The President: Hon. Members, before we get too Now, remember, we have just now – with the greatest excited in relation to the whole matter, can I just make it of respect to the Chief Minister – we have now just given plain that, in relation to Mr Lowey’s comments, there is an new powers to the Electricity Authority for the selling of implication earlier that, in fact, there might have been some gas and all the rest of it. I know, because I introduced . . . I, impropriety in relation to Mr Proffitt, the Chief Executive in this place, moved the legislation. They are not, now, only and/or the MEA board. That implication was, equally, made producing electricity and selling electricity, but they are in previously and I say, Hon. Members, that I have found no the gas business, wholesale – impropriety in the professional manner in which Mr Proffitt has adopted his affairs previously in any regard whatsoever. Mr Houghton: And retail shortly, hopefully. Mr Houghton and Mr Henderson: Hear, hear. Mr Lowey: – and, well, and they are also in the job. Now, do I take it that there will be some confidentiality The President: Mr Cannan. about that? ‘You must not know about that, because it is in confidence and we have already given an agreement that it Mr Cannan: Thank you, Mr President. will be in confidence.’ You are on a dangerous slope . . . First of all, I am saddened that what was a simple

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried 536 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day resolution has now degenerated into personal attacks (A in an amendment to the legislation – Member: Hear, hear.) on the Chief Executive. Member after member has stood up and said, ‘Well, of course, I respect A Member: That is the answer. Mr Proffitt’ and then instantly gone on to hammer him. I believe in transparency, Hon. Members, as much as Mr Cannan: – but do not, please, Hon. Members, go anybody in here, but I also believe in the rule of law (Two on pillorying somebody who, from what Members have said, Members: Hear, hear.) and Tynwald Court signed the is doing an outstandingly good job, together with the board Electricity Act 1996 and it gave the board of directors, the of directors, for the MEA, for the Isle of Man, and the people board of the MEA certain powers and the board, quite of the Isle of Man, I believe, are benefiting by it. I believe legally, quite lawfully, exercised those powers in good faith. the people of the Isle of Man are benefiting by it, but that is Now, certain Members are saying, ‘We made a mistake with not the issue. the law. We are not changing it, but we want the whole The issue is, do we stand by the law or do we, on the thing to be retrospective.’ hoof, want to suddenly overturn a legal agreement, because it does not suit us. If we can do it once, we can do it again Mr Corkill: When it suits. and again, and I believe no self respecting national parliament should ever get into the situation that, because Mr Cannan: Change it, when it suits us. Hon. Members, it does not like some action that was carried out lawfully, it we are a Government – suddenly overturns it, because it does not suit the Members of the day. Mrs Hannan: No, we are not. We have the guarantee of the Chief Minister it will not occur again. I am quite sure that the board of directors will Mr Karran: We are parliament. ensure it does not happen again, because they will have had a directive. So what is the problem? Stand by the rule of Mrs Hannan: We are parliament. law and the people of the Isle of Man will respect you. If you change it, then you undermine the whole system. Mr Cannan: The Government and parliament passed – The President: Hon. Member, Douglas South, Mr Mrs Hannan: It is not Government. Duggan.

Mr Cannan: Very well, we are a parliament. Mr Duggan: Thank you, Mr President. We talk about ourselves being a national parliament. Let Unlike the Member for Michael, I fully support the Chief us act as a national parliament. We have passed the law. We Minister’s amendment, sir, and I think there is a contract have signed the law. We gave the board of the MEA the there which you have got to abide by. authority to carry out certain duties. It is okay Mrs Hannan going off on this tack, but the Now you are saying, ‘We do not like what you did,’ but whole thing is becoming a fiasco. We are the Government, we gave them the power to do it. Do not attack Mr Proffitt. as I say and we should be responsible. The agreement is He asked for terms and conditions, I assume, that included there and I would like to ask the Attorney General’s view confidentiality. The board acted lawfully in the terms of on that contract, sir, but the MEA, in my opinion, have done the legislation. an excellent job in Pulrose environmentally, all round they If you are, Hon. Members, going to suddenly change work very hard and that new power station is a showpiece, legislation because you do not like it, but without changing and I would like the Attorney’s view on this contract. legislation, then you can also say that a lawful agreement made for income tax . . . and suddenly a year later, ‘We The President: Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne. don’t like that, he should have paid more. He is a wealthy man’, when, lawfully, the agreement was done – and the Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I am not in the principle of a national Government is that it abides by what business of trying to knock the tremendous work that the is there. Chief Executive of the MEA has been doing. On this occasion I am supporting the Chief Minister’s I do not think that the motion talks about the work of amendment. The Chief Minister has clearly said what was the Chief Executive. What it talks about is the salary of the lawful and legal has been done. It may have been Chief Executive. unfortunate, but it was lawful and legal. We cannot undo it, Mr Cannan has just been telling us about standing by but what we can do is to make sure that the board of the the law – we cannot go changing the law – and yet this MEA – who are accountable to the Government through motion seeks to use Section 3 of the Tynwald Proceedings the Department of Trade and Industry – that the Department Act 1876, so we have got another law. So there are two of Trade and Industry say to the directors that, in future, laws, and it is down to us to make our minds up whether there must be no more confidentiality and that is right and this is important, or whether it is not important. proper. I think it is important that we are not being told this I am absolutely certain that the board of directors and particular issue. Again, like Mr Lowey, being a cranky Manx the chairman will abide by that directive, but what is done so-and-so, I was not particularly bothered about this until it is done. You cannot suddenly turn on a person who signed was raised, but, now that we are being told that we are not a deal in good faith, legally and in confidence, suddenly in going to be told what the amount of money is, I have here say, ‘Oh, we don’t like that. We made a mistake in the suddenly taken a great interest in it (Laughter) and I think legislation.’ it is important. Well, if we made a mistake in the legislation, we bring Either we are interested in transparency in this Court,

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 537 T121 or we are not. We are asked in the motion to follow Section is an acceptable way forward of providing the information, 3 of the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876, find out what this which I think all of us in the Council of Ministers believe salary is and then we can call an end to this particular debate. should be in the public domain. The fact that we are here, where we are now, is the best way forward that the Council The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. of Ministers, under our legal advice, can come forward in order to satisfy our aspirations for the future, but without Mr Quayle: Thank you, Mr President. actually going down the road which was eloquently outlined I rise to support the amendment in the name of the Chief by Mr Cannan, Mr Quayle, Mr Duggan and others. Minister and I would simply ask the question: what sort of Therefore, this has not been done lightly, this is not a parliament are we if we are to allow a Statutory Board to Council of Ministers trying to disguise or hide anything, enter into an agreement and then seek to renege on that this is merely a case of identifying something which is deal (A Member: Hear, hear.) that has been done in good wrong, it is fundamentally wrong, it needs to be changed faith by the Manx Electricity Authority? for the future. I have got no question of the work that the Chief However, the Council has decided it is fairer to stand Executive and the Board have done. I have nothing to by an agreement entered into by honourable people, so that understand, other than the fact that I think they have done a there can be no doubt in the future, it will not happen there. tremendous job. I think the board of the MEA probably exercised a level of I would like to think that the Isle of Man Government’s private commercial enterprise, as opposed to political good word should be its bond and that should apply to the Manx judgement. I think they are not there for their political good Electricity Authority, as much as any other Department or judgement, they are there to run a very important industry Statutory Board. for the Island. If they were to have considered the political I would like to think my word is my bond. In over 25 implications, I am sure they may have re-thought their years of business, selling hundreds of thousands of pounds position. worth, often over the phone or in person, not a handshake However, we have got private, commercially-minded, was necessary or a written agreement. I trusted my experienced skills from the Chief Executive and he would customers and they trusted me. This is a question of trust have entered into this, as he would in his normal private for the parliament and integrity of the parliament, I believe. capacity. Therefore, we are not talking about the Civil I think, yes, it is an unsatisfactory situation, as we have Service, we are talking about people who are used to dealing heard that we are not able to have the amount disclosed, in a commercial world, where confidentiality is the name but if arrangements can be remedied so that we know in of the game as a natural instinct. I think, in future, the MEA future public sector contracts of employment would not be board will understand the high profile this has been given. confidential, then that is satisfactory to me and it should be I believe the Chief Minister’s amendment will draw a line satisfactory to the parliament of the Isle of Man. under it and ensure that nothing happens in the future like That would obviously apply to the successor of Mr this, sir. Proffitt. Let us not, as a parliament, renege on an agreement; that is a very slippery slope to go down. I would hope Hon. The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Members should consider themselves honourable and not Cannell. seek to renege on deals that have been done in good faith on a legal basis. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I think it is unfortunate that, following the Question that The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmin. was put in terms of chief officers’ salaries right down through Government Departments, Statutory Boards et Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. cetera, when it was forthcoming, it was fairly comprehensive I do not wish to repeat many of the things said. I would in some respects, but, of course, when we got down to the just like to draw to the attention of the Court two of the Manx Electricity Authority we just had a box that said most telling contributions I feel, this afternoon or this ‘refused’ in it. evening, have been from two fairly fierce critics of In hindsight, perhaps, it would have been better if, when Government on normal occasions – that is the Member for the Manx Electricity Authority were responding to that Michael and the Member for South Douglas, Mr Duggan. Question, they had explained that they were not obliged to They have not got an axe to grind, they are not members of submit the information, because there was a contract in the Council of Ministers, they are not members of the place, or because of legislation, or whatever. Then, perhaps, Department of Trade and Industry, but they can see the we may not have found ourselves in this debate today at rightness of standing by a Board that we have appointed to this late hour in the month of December 2003. carry out what it was legally they were empowered to do. So I think there is a lesson to be learned there, that to This issue – and I would urge Hon. Members to take just merely refuse is the one that has upset Hon. Members this as genuine – has caused a great deal of distress and and this is why it is being pursued, so I fully understand the consternation within the Council of Ministers. We have situation that we find ourselves in. taken legal advice, we have compounded further legal advice In respect of that, I would like the learned Attorney and contradictory legal advice and it is not something that General, then, to advise us on what additional powers, or any of us are happy or content with. new powers, or differing powers, that the board of the MEA Even the mover of the original question, Mr Henderson, have when compared with other boards of statutory has pointed out that he is satisfied with this and even goes authorities. Are they greater and to what degree? Because I further by his own amendment. The Council of Ministers am not fully satisfied yet that, in fact, they are provided have looked at this from every direction to see whether there with such power as to be able to determine what the salary

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried 538 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day and anything else that might occur with the current Authority does have the statutory power to appoint a Chief postholder, that is then not forwarding for disclosure. So I Executive and can include within the contract of service a would like some kind of guidance there from the learned confidentiality clause. Attorney, before Mr President asks the Hon. Member to Turning then to the other points which have been raised, sum up and to go to a vote. in particular the question from the Hon. Member, Mr In addition to that, of course, I understand contract law Duggan, for South Douglas. and I understand that there is a contract struck that provides The Tynwald Proceedings Act 1876 is fairly bald in its that certain amounts of remuneration are not disclosed and terms, insofar as its section 3, which is the section referred that is it, but that is not to say that the highest court in the to by the Hon. Member for Peel in her motion, provides as land cannot have a look at that, even if there is a contract in follows: place. So, if we could have some explanation, please, I would appreciate that. Witnesses may be summoned to appear before the Court, or either To the hon. mover of the original motion, I would ask, House, or a committee specially empowered by the Court or either when summing up, why is it that the Authority’s records of House, to take evidence and the production to the Court, or either House, or a committee, of papers, documents or records, receivable or the current salary and ‘other emoluments’ of their Chief producible in evidence, and pertinent to the matter of inquiry, may be Executive are being requested, because I seem to remember required as follows . . . . and recall that, when the original Question was first put, it was the current salary that was sought information on. That is to say, and, in relation to Tynwald, Mr President, by an Order of your good self. Mr Henderson: That is correct. It goes on to say,

Mrs Cannell: It did not cover any other emoluments, the attendance of witnesses and the production of papers et cetera because I know, for a fact, that some of the figures that may be enforced in like manner as in the case of witnesses or persons were revealed in that Question and answer, really did not summoned to appear personally or to produce documents before a court give Hon. Members a very clear picture. It only recorded of justice. the current salary level at that time and I do know that certain chief officers were quaking in their boots that the Question So, in other words, Mr President, leaving it at that, was not going to go any deeper, because they do receive Tynwald could, if they passed this motion, trigger off those much more than we had seen in terms of the answer given, provisions of section 3 and, Mr President, you could make but that was not recalled, that was not asked for at the time. an Order, directing that the papers be produced. Other emoluments were not asked for, so why should But that rather bald provision was, I think, very we be asking now to consider all the extras, in addition to significantly modified by the Tynwald Proceedings Act the current salary, all the extras that this particular postholder 1984, which goes on to say, in section 2, that, is receiving and that was not asked of everybody else in a similar position. where any person who is summoned to appear or give evidence or to produce any papers, documents or records before the Court, refuses to Clearly, it is quite contentious. It ought to have been answer any question that may be put to him, or to produce any such handled much more sensitively and I think perhaps the MEA papers, documents or records, on the ground that the same is of a private have had a steep learning curve in terms of this, that, nature and does not affect the subject of inquiry, the President of perhaps, in future, when questions such as this arise, they Tynwald, or the Speaker, as the case may be, may excuse the answering may be a little bit more sensitive when they reply to us, of such question, or the production of such papers et cetera. bearing in mind the heat of political debate in this late hour. Now, that section, again, is not without difficulty, because it says that the papers may be refused if they are The President: Mr Attorney. ‘of a private nature and do not affect the subject of inquiry’. But, of course, as we know, the papers here do affect the The Attorney General: Mr President, thank you. subject of the inquiry, they are the very reason why the If I may, Hon. Members, refer, first of all, to the point motion is before the Court. However, it does, I think, show raised by the Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell, when she asks that Tynwald, in 1984, realised that there had to be some for specific legal authority for the proposition that the brake, some safety valve, as it were, to prevent papers being Authority can employ the Chief Executive on such terms produced as a result of, perhaps, an oppressive motion, as the Authority thinks fit. which offended the notion of confidentiality, and, as ever, That authority is contained within paragraph 3 of in questions of this kind, it is not a simple matter. schedule 1 to the Electricity Act 1996, which provides as There are two conflicting public interests, are there not? follows under the heading ‘Officers’: On the one hand, there is a public interest which Hon. The Authority may appoint such officers as it thinks fit at such Members are quite clearly very anxious about, namely that remuneration and upon such conditions of service as the Authority matters which should properly be in the public arena should may determine. be disclosed – that is one thing. The other thing is, though, that has been so forcibly put by other Members, is there is a It is, to my certain knowledge, the fact that the Authority duty of confidentiality and that courts, certainly the High has entered into a contract in writing with the Chief Court, and, no doubt, this Hon. Court of Tynwald, should Executive and that the Authority took legal advice from a also preserve confidentiality and confidential contracts, leading firm of advocates, well versed in commercial law, unless there is a very good reason why that should be who would know full well the provisions of the Electricity otherwise. Act 1996, and who would have advised the Authority Therefore, it seems to me that, on the one hand, the accordingly. I do not think there can be any doubt that the Electricity Act does provide specific statutory power for

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 539 T121 the board to appoint the Chief Executive on such terms as it discussing our pay is the remuneration that we receive and thinks fit, including confidentiality. We then have the I think it would be remiss of us if we did not try to seek out preceding legislation, which is so important – the earlier the remuneration, especially when the refusal had been made legislation, which says that there are various powers for the to this Hon. Court to make that sum available. Hon. Court of Tynwald to produce documents and papers, Because this Question was asked, there is word on the and so on. street about the remuneration that is received by the Chief If the Electricity Act had intended to preserve the powers Executive and that was not through any move of mine, it of Tynwald, I think that the Electricity Act would have said was a move that was carried out before I asked this particular ‘subject to the provisions of the Tynwald Proceedings Act Question. 1876 and the Tynwald Proceedings Act 1984, the board may I realise, as the Attorney has said, that there is one law appoint the Chief Executive on such terms as it thinks fit.’ saying one thing and one law saying something else, but I It did not say that, Mr President, and, in my respectful believe that Tynwald is paramount and I believe that this view, and it is a difficult point, the later Act of Tynwald information should be available and, therefore, I would hope must prevail, and it may not be satisfactory, but, as it seems that Members will support my motion. to me, the provisions of the Electricity Act are absolutely clear. The President: Hon. Members, the motion which I have to put to the Court is that printed at 29 on the Order Paper. The President: Mrs Hannan to reply. To that we have two amendments, Hon. Members. The amendment in the name of the Hon. Member for Douglas Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. North and the amendment in the name of the Chief Minister. There are obviously many points that have been made Hon. Members, I propose to put to the Court first the by Members and I am not going to go through them all. (A amendment in the name of the Chief Minister. If that Member: Hear, hear.) amendment is successful, the amendment in the name of The Attorney General has spelt out the Acts which are Mr Henderson could build to it and then you could build in debate this evening and he said that the Manx Electricity however you wish to play it, but, Hon. Members, my Act 1996 allows such confidentiality. I do not think that intention is to put to the Court first the amendment in the confidentiality was ever made clear to anyone, certainly name of the Chief Minister. not within this Court, or to the Council of Ministers, or to Those in favour of the amendment, as moved by the the Department of Trade and Industry, so it seems that it Chief Minister, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have was carried out, certainly, spending a lot of money; if, as it. the Attorney says, they went to a leading firm of advocates, there must have been some reason to go to a leading firm of A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: advocates to be able to have this confidentiality written into this contract of employment. In the Keys – Ayes 19, Noes 3 It seems strange that we are now in this situation, where no-one knows the remuneration that is to be paid when many FOR AGAINST companies’ businesses these days, one of the biggest Mr Anderson Mr Gawne questions is what people are paid, their remunerations, their Mr Cannan Mrs Hannan emoluments, because civil servants actually do not have – I Mr Rodan Mr Karran Mr Quayle would quite like to hear from Mrs Cannell at some stage Mr Rimington about what these extras are that civil servants get – but Mr Gill emoluments relate to payment of bonuses, share options, et Mr Houghton cetera, which, obviously, civil servants would not get. Mr Henderson So it is those sorts of issues that I was trying to get to Mr Duggan the bottom of, that it was not just pay, because that is what Mr Braidwood Mrs Cannell civil servants are getting, but, maybe, the Member for Mr Downie Douglas East will sort that out in the future. This was a Mr Shimmin very simple – at least I started off by thinking it was – a Mr Bell very simple motion to lay before Tynwald Court, to ask Mrs Craine that this be made available to Tynwald Court. Mr Corkill Mr Earnshaw I still, after hearing all the arguments, believe that Capt. Douglas Tynwald Court should have this information made available The Speaker to them, to us. I believe that Tynwald is higher than Government. I believe that the legislation does not say that The Speaker: Mr President, the amendment carries in confidentiality can be written into a contract; it does say the House of Keys, with 19 votes for, 3 votes against. under the conditions that they wished to apply and, obviously, they have applied these conditions, but one has In the Council – Ayes 6, Noes 1 to ask why? This is not a criticism of the Manx Electricity Authority, FOR AGAINST or the Chief Executive, and I am surprised that Members Mr Waft Mr Lowey have entered into this debate this evening, because it was Mr Singer Mrs Christian not intended to be, just in the same way as I am not criticising Mr Delaney any of the people that we already know the amounts of. Mr Gelling One of the criticisms that we have when we are Mrs Crowe

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried 540 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day

The President: With 6 for, and 1 against in the Council, Town and Country Planning Act 1981, carry out such a Hon. Members, the amendment in the name of the Chief study in consultation with landowners, neighbours, local Minister, therefore, carries. authority and the Centre for Manx Studies, and report Hon. Members, I now put to you the amendment in the by July 2004. name of the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. Those in favour, please say aye; against, The President: We turn now, Hon. Members, to Item no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Hon. Members, that 30 and I call on the Hon. Member for Peel. amendment also carries. I then put to you effectively the motion. It now becomes, Mrs Hannan: I thank you, Eaghtyrane. in effect, a new motion, Hon. Members. Those in favour of In 1989 the Peel Plan was approved by Tynwald and, the amendments in the name of the Chief Minister and the following that, the conservation area was approved. Hon. Member for Douglas North, please say aye; against, This conservation area is quite extensive, covering an no. The ayes have it. area which could be described as ‘Old Peel’. Peel developed around the harbour area, due to the importance of fishing, A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: shipbuilding and maritime activity in general. The quayside is an industrial area that has, over the years, changed from In the Keys – Ayes 20, Noes 2 servicing sailing ships to receiving goods for storage and, in recent times, coal, with the coal boats coming in almost FOR AGAINST up to the coalyards themselves, situated on East Quay. Mr Anderson Mrs Hannan Times have changed and one of the yards has now Mr Cannan Mr Karran received planning approval on appeal for a development Mr Rodan containing flats. Concern has been expressed by local people Mr Quayle that this has now set a precedent for the size and style of Mr Rimington Mr Gill development along the quay. And it was this that led to the Mr Gawne appeal of the planning application. When recommending Mr Houghton approval at the appeal hearing the inspector said, and I quote: Mr Henderson Mr Duggan To my mind, this is what is needed on East Quay, a building that can Mr Braidwood be joined by others to become part of a re-built quayside. This does Mrs Cannell not mean that all future buildings on the quayside should be of a similar Mr Downie height or proportion. A degree of variation is found in many of our Mr Shimmin historic cities and towns. I do not consider that permission for this Mr Bell building would set a precedent, which would mean that Planning Mrs Craine Committee would find its hands tied to buildings of five storeys. Each Mr Corkill individual site, as it comes to be developed — and I agree that the water- Mr Earnshaw retention scheme for the harbour will make it a very attractive location Capt. Douglas for more quayside development — will need to be judged on its merits The Speaker and much will depend on the skill with which the Planning Committee s professional advisers engage in discussion with prospective developers. The Speaker: Mr President, the motion as amended It would, of course, be an easier matter for control if a design guide were prepared for this stretch of East Quay, but that is a matter for the carries in the House of Keys, with 20 votes for, 2 votes Planning Committee and its resources. against. I know that at least one study has already been done, In the Council – Ayes 6, Noes 1 but that was some time ago, so it may be possible that a new study is now needed, especially when no mention was FOR AGAINST made during the planning process of these studies. These Mr Waft Mr Lowey studies have been done and have used resources made Mr Singer Mrs Christian available, with monies provided by Tynwald. I wondered Mr Delaney why a study was not mentioned at planning. Mind you, I Mr Gelling did not mention them either, as they had gone nowhere; Mrs Crowe they had not come to Tynwald, or been made public, or consulted on, other than myself and the local authority. The President: With 6 for and 1 against in the Council, So, with the comments of the inspector and local Hon. Members, the motion, therefore, carries. concerns, I am now suggesting that the Department of Local Government and the Environment consult landowners, neighbours, the local authority and the Centre for Manx Studies. I suggest the Centre for Manx Studies, because a Design Study of East Quay, Peel study was carried out in 1992 by the University of Liverpool Motion carried in conjunction with the Isle of Man Government, and I believe that this should be required reading for anyone 30. The Hon Member for Peel (Mrs˚Hannan) to move - attempting to develop around the conservation area in Peel and especially the harbour area. This document relates to That Tynwald, in recognising the importance of the built Peel town and archaeological and architectural assessment. environment of the conservation area in Peel, also It is really very plain and simple. This area is a riverbed recognises the need for a design study of East Quay, Peel and beach area, made up of sands, silts, gravels and, of and requests that the Department of Local Government course, on a higher level, much domestic waste, including and the Environment, under Section 12(4) and (5) of the ash and some pottery.

Manx Electricity Authority Chief Executive s Emoluments —Amended motion carried Design Study of East Quay, Peel —Motion carried Orders of the Day TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 541 T121

This study will be invaluable for anyone wanting to somewhere else, perhaps to land that was owned by the understand the soils and ground condition of this area, and, Department of Trade and Industry. because of this, and in the interests of good planning, I would At the present time there is a special tax concession urge Members to support the motion on the Order Paper available for development in Peel, so, to set this study in today, mainly in support of the local plan approved by this motion, I think would be very appropriate. Having had a Court, also the conservation area, but, more importantly, number of visitors to the Isle of Man go along to the quayside good planning for a very sensitive area. in Peel, they cannot believe that this area has not been But also, in supporting this motion I would suggest that developed for a small hotel, a restaurant and other tasteful it may lead to better planning design all round, and maybe, types of development which we have seen in areas like if we had better designed developments, just maybe, the Maryport, Whithorn and that part of the world, using public might be more supportive of planning and traditional materials, which have really brought the quayside development in general. to life. Eaghtyrane, I beg to move the motion standing in my I have no problem supporting the principle of the Hon. name. Member for Peel’s motion, but I think, before diving headlong into this, I would just like to hear from somebody The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Cannell. within DoLGE how long it is going to take to put a study like this together and what are the staffing and cost Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I am very happy to second implications, should any study take place? But, in principle, and reserve my remarks, sir. I can support this. I think it is a good move, it has come at the right time and we should be doing what we possibly The President: Hon. Member, Mr Earnshaw. can do to encourage economic development in Peel, but with the guard on it that it is done in a proper and tasteful Mr Earnshaw: Well I was going to second as well, way. Mr President, but I would just like to take the opportunity to say a few words in support of the Hon. Member for Peel, The President: Minister for Local Government, Mrs Hannan, because I worked in Peel for a number of years. Mrs Crowe, Hon. Member of Council. I regard the quayside in Peel, really, as something of a national treasure, because of its natural charm, and I think Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. the evolutionary aspect of this is something we should work I, too, have great sympathy with the mover of this motion hard to retain. I think the quayside at Peel is a refreshing and recognise of course the beauty of Peel, but, whilst my change from the twee sort of look that we get in many Department recognises the desirability of preparing a design quayside settings. study for the East Quay area in Peel – and such a study So I do believe that Peel is a special place in the Isle of would be beneficial to the continued improvement of the Man, and deserves sensitive development to retain its unique built environment in the town – however, Peel’s East Quay character. is only one of 17 studies my Department would have to carry out in respect of various conservation areas over the The President: Hon. Member, Douglas West, next few years, and these have to be carefully planned and Mr Downie. prioritised, bearing in mind the resources needed for the completion of such work. Mr Downie: Thank you. My Department already has a heavy work programme I wish to support the sentiments that have been expressed scheduled and has given a commitment to the appraisal next by the Hon. Member for Peel, but I think, really, I would year of five further areas for designation as conservation reserve my final judgement on this one until, perhaps, we areas – St John’s, Kirk Michael, Port Erin, Port St Mary have heard a little more about what is involved in the study, and Sulby – to the addition of 50 buildings to the registered either by the Minister, or from the Chairman of the Planning buildings list, and to the completion of the three Committee. enhancement schemes currently in place, one of which is Just to bring some light to the original scheme, this was Michael Street in Peel. carried out in Peel some nine years ago by the Ellis Brown In subsequent years, the Department intends to add more Partnership on behalf of the Department of Local properties to the list of registered buildings and to designate Government and the Environment, who, at that particular further new conservation areas identified from the new time, saw the potential for development in Peel and there is programme of area plans, and, no doubt, there will be no doubt about it – there is huge potential on this quayside, pressure from other Members to prioritise these by the best but I feel, like the Hon. Member for Peel, whatever happens way of making progress. However, I do believe that, if we it must reflect the local character and be done with the utmost adhered to the programme already scheduled, we will make sensitivity. far better progress in the prioritising of all the areas that I About two years ago I held a meeting with Peel have already mentioned. The Department is fully committed Commissioners just after I went into my post as Minister to work for the forthcoming year and I would say that to for Trade and Industry and we discussed economic prioritise Peel, over all the other studies that are already development in Peel and the way in which it might be under way, would not be useful at this time. possible for Government to work together with the However, on a more positive note, I can say that, in the Commissioners, so that a lot of the Government-owned land case of East Quay in Peel, the Department would not be on that quayside could be amalgamated and put into a starting from scratch, as the hon. mover has already number of schemes and the Government bodies, who were mentioned there have been some studies undertaken. There occupying land on the quayside, could then be relocated was the 1992 study and the 1989 study that have already

Design Study of East Quay, Peel — Motion carried 542 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Orders of the Day been referred to, and those, of course, were when alternative properties – I am saying huge, over a dozen properties are sites were being looked for for the House of Manannan, damaged – because the ground conditions were not and we had a further study carried out in 1995. So, as far as investigated properly. Therefore, I do think, taking this into I have been able to ascertain, as you say, a presentation was account, what along the quay can actually support, can given in Peel on behalf of the Department by the late Ian actually be developed there, is something that should be Brown of Ellis Brown Partnership and, while a considerable done – or else, is the Minister saying that she is quite happy amount of review and updating would be required, I am and she will support and she will accept appeals which sure that the base information and the results of these actually go to her that are five-storeys high in future? consultations with the interested parties at that time, will I quoted the inspector, saying what he did, because he provide a very useful start point and my Department will had not got a design study. Now I do not know what other be looking to slot this study into its programme of work. areas are as sensitive as the Peel Quay. I do not know what, As Hon. Members are, no doubt, aware, conservation and the Minister did not make that clear, either. The inspector area designation has the effect of ensuring that the special said and I repeat it again: architectural quality or local character of an area may be preserved and enhanced for our present enjoyment and that I agree that the water retention scheme for the harbour will make it a of future generations to come. This is important work and very attractive location for more quayside development. It will need to the recent designation of St Mark’s Village and several areas be judged on its merits, but much will depend on the skill which the Planning Committee s professional advisers engage in discussion with in Douglas represent significant progress for which the prospective developers. It would, of course, be an easier matter for support of this Hon. Court has been greatly appreciated. control if a design guide were prepared for this stretch of East Quay. So, while I do have a great deal of sympathy with the mover of this motion, I am sorry to say that, at the present This document, the actual comments made by the time, the Department could not fit this study into all the Inspector, would have gone nowhere. The Planning schedule of work that is ongoing. It would have to take Committee, or the Department of Local Government, would precedence over the studies for St John’s, for Port Erin, and quite clearly have forgotten about this comment, as they for the other areas that I have mentioned, and, indeed, we did the design studies, as they did this document produced could not report to this Hon. Court in July, but I do make a by the Isle of Man Government at great cost with the commitment to see if we can fit this particular study into University of Liverpool. The person who was in charge of our work schedule at the earliest possible time. that is now working for the Centre for Manx Studies. Thank you, Mr President. So, there is an awful lot of work that needs to be done and what I said in my opening remarks is that this could not The President: Mrs Hannan to reply. necessarily be seen as something just for Peel, but it should be what we enter into to protect any sensitive area – that Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. there is a design study worked up by the Department of I would like to thank Mrs Cannell for seconding and I Local Government. I understand what the Minister said would like to thank other Members for their support, as about supporting conservation and declaring conservation well. I suppose I could only expect very limited support areas, but I just wonder where we are going to get the money from the Department of Local Government and the from in future. What I am saying is that there are two guides Environment, because, you see, this is one of the difficulties already drawn up, but I believe they should be looked at – that two studies have been carried out in this area and and it would not take very much more to work those up, they have gone nowhere. We have got all these conservation along with this study that was done of Peel town and its areas coming on, where is the money going to come from very sensitive areas along the quay. to support these conservation areas? When I spoke before I have also the support of Peel Town Commissioners, about these conservation areas, there is not money available and they have asked me (Interjections and laughter) – and to support them. they have invited me to attend a meeting with them . . . The area in Peel is quite a huge area, and to get any (Interjections and laughter) money to support these is extremely difficult. I know that the Department of Local Government only has a certain Mr Delaney: Bring your own drinks! amount of money to go round, I realise that, but if studies are done and they do not go anywhere, that, to my mind, is Mrs Hannan: . . . though I would hope that, once they a waste. What we should be looking at, is what has been prevail on the Minister for Local Government and the done, what can now be used, and, if what has been used in Environment, with my support, obviously, that this would the past is something that can be developed further, then go somewhat . . . I would hope that this Hon. Court, at this that is what we should be doing with it. late hour when I should have been at two Christmas parties, What could happen if these studies are not brought to (Interjections) (A Member: Cinderella.) will support me. the attention of the people who are developing – or if these documents are not brought to the attention of people who The President: Hon. Member, the motion I put to the are developing – we end up with a situation like we have at Court is that as printed at 30 on your Order Paper. Those in the moment at Station Road, where a huge number of favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.

Design Study of East Quay, Peel — Motion carried Supplementary Orders 1 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 543 T121

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: The President: They were laid earlier.

In the Keys – Ayes 14, Noes 9

FOR AGAINST Registration of Electors Act 1984 Mr Anderson Mr Cannan Registration of Electors Regulations 2003 Mr Quayle Mr Rodan Motion lost Mr Gill Mr Rimington Mr Gawne Mr Houghton Mr Cretney Mr Henderson 3. The Minister for the Treasury to move: Mr Duggan Mr Shimmin Mr Braidwood Mr Bell That the Registration of Electors Regulations 2003 be Mrs Cannell Mrs Craine approved. [SD No 700/03] Mr Downie Mr Corkill Mrs Hannan Mr Karran The President: In that case, we will move straight to Mr Earnshaw Item 3 and I call on the Minister for Treasury to move. Capt. Douglas The Speaker Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. These regulations are made by the Council of Ministers, The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the in accordance with Schedule 9 (2) to the Data Protection House of Keys, with 14 votes for, 9 votes against. Act 2002. They will make our electoral legislation, in respect of the use of Electoral Registers, compliant with the In the Council – Ayes 4, Noes 2 provisions of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. FOR AGAINST Currently, Sections 14 (1) and 14 (2) of the Registration Mr Waft Mrs Christian Mr Singer Mrs Crowe of Electors Act 1984 require the Chief Registrar and the Mr Delaney Clerk of each local authority to sell copies of the Island’s Mr Gelling Electoral Registers to any person on payment of the prescribed fee. Draft versions of these registers, known as The President: With 4 for, and 2 against in the Council, lists of electors, are also produced each year. Hon. Members, the motion, therefore, carries. Section 5 and Section 6 of the Act oblige the Registration Officer to make these lists public and to sell copies of them to any person on payment of the prescribed fee. The use to which personal data obtained in this way may be put is not restricted. Consequently, persons who wish to be registered to vote cannot prevent their details being sold on to third Supplementary Orders 1 parties and subsequently being used for non-electoral purposes. This is in breach of Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights and of Article 3 of the first protocol thereto. These regulations provide that two versions Business to be considered under Standing Order 2.2 (6) of the Electoral Register be produced each year. Motion carried A full Register, containing the name, address and electoral number of each eligible voter, will continue to be 1. The Minister for the Treasury to move: produced. Availability and use of this Register will be restricted mainly to electoral purposes, but authorised uses That Standing Orders 2.4(1) and 10.9 be suspended and will include the prevention and detection of crime, anti- that, under Standing Order 2.2 (6), the following business money-laundering procedures and the provision of credit be considered. reference services. A copy will also be held at the Manx Museum for historical purposes. The President: Hon. Members, we now turn to our In addition, an edited version of the Register will be Supplementary Order Paper and I call on the Minister for produced. Availability and use of this version will be Treasury. completely unrestricted, but the details of all those electors who object to having their details sold on to a third party Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. Can I move that will be omitted. The regulations also restrict availability of Standing Orders 2.4(1) and 10.9 be suspended and, under the list of electors and make it unlawful to make copies of Standing Order 2.2 (6), that the following business be them or to use them in any unauthorised way. considered, Mr Speaker. Mr President, I beg to move.

Mr Corkill: I beg to second. The President: Chief Minister.

The President: Hon. Members, I put to you Item 1 on Mr Corkill: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, the Supplementary Order Paper. Those in favour, please say Mr President. aye, against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I call upon the Clerk to lay papers. The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mrs Craine.

The Clerk: Mr President, they were laid. Mrs Craine: Thank you, Mr President.

Design Study of East Quay, Peel — Motion carried Business to be considered under Standing Order 2.2 (6) — Motion carried Registration of Electors Act 1984 —Registration of Electors Regulations 2003 —Motion lost 544 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Supplementary Orders 1

I would like to refer to page 3 and item 5, ‘Restrictions I expect this not to be supported today. on the inspection of the full register’, and I note that the If you really think we have a democracy here, I know mover makes the note here that this is all in compliance we look at being redundant sometimes, but we do have a with the European Court of Human Rights. purpose to serve. My colleagues on the Treasury, I have got But it does seem to be a nonsensical piece of legislation, two Ministers alongside me, but they cannot find out who where copies may not be taken of the Register, other than is making the phone call to them, to get some background by means of hand-written notes, in this day and age. I fail on who these people are, when they want it. I think this is a to understand why it is possible to make hand-written notes. nonsense and it takes it far too far, and I will not be What is it about hand-written notes that make them exempt supporting this and I expect my colleagues in the Keys – from the Data Protection Act? Whereas you can make your who I work for, and I consider we all work for, to help them hand-written note go across the room, type it into your laptop to do their job – not to support it, either. computer, or, alternatively, just turn up with a digital camera I do not see why we should be denied the information to and take the photograph and I really see that this is do our jobs. something of a nonsense, sir. The President: The Minister to reply. The President: Mr Speaker. Mr Bell: Mr President, if I can take the second question The Speaker: Just a question for the Minister. To some first, from the Hon. Member, Mr Speaker. I do not know degree following on from what has just been said, but whether the Council has not been included in this, but, slightly different, I notice that the Chief Registrar ‘shall clearly, the Legislative Council does not have a constituency, provide’ copies to those listed under paragraph 7. it is quite separate from the work of the House of Keys and I wonder, in relation to copying it, what is the situation that is why that the legislation has been drafted in the way in relation to Members of the Legislative Council. that it has, but I will double check on that and find if it has Presumably, under these regulations, it would be illegal for been an omission, or whether there is a particular reason the Tynwald Central Reference Library to provide for it. photocopies, or a full copy of a constituency, to a Member As far as the Hon. Member, my colleague, Mrs Craine, of the Legislative Council, because they are not mentioned is concerned, I will have to double check this, but this is in these regulations and I just wonder if the Minister does tied up, I think, with the Data Protection Act itself, and the not know whether or not – handling of written documentation, as opposed to electronic, and if the Hon. Member will bear with me, really, on both Mr Delaney: Good point, Mr Speaker. these matters, I will circulate the answers to these points as soon as I get the answers tomorrow. The Speaker: – the Minister will, maybe, raise that issue I have no officers with me tonight, unfortunately, who with the Registrar. can give me the assistance. So if Members would accept I completely understand he may not be able to answer those assurances, I will circulate the answers as soon as I today, but, just glancing through, sitting here, I notice that can. there is no reference at all to them. I understand clearly they have no constituency, but we The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to do know they have an interest and it may well be for the Court is that printed at 3 on your Order Paper. Those in legitimate work, as a Member of Tynwald, that they actually favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. want a copy of the register of voters for a certain area, or for a highway, or whatever, and I believe, under this, it would A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: actually be illegal for them to have a copy. Could I ask the Minister, if he cannot answer it, at to In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 5 least take it back, not the Order, but take that comment back and maybe amend the Order later. FOR AGAINST Mr Anderson Mr Cannan Mr Rodan Mrs Craine The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Delaney. Mr Quayle Mr Karran Mr Rimington Mr Earnshaw Mr Delaney: The point that the Speaker makes is a good Mr Gill Capt. Douglas one, except that I believe we are here, as I have said before, Mr Gawne to assist the Keys to do their job, as a secondary chamber, Mr Houghton to scrutinise, to ensure that they have done the job well, Mr Henderson Mr Cretney hopefully. Mr Duggan We are also here to help their constituents, I believe, in Mr Braidwood getting what they require, where they have problems with Mrs Cannell the organisation of administration of this Island, and I think Mr Shimmin it is a shot in the arm that we are denied what Members Mrs Hannan Mr Bell need to look up who is the person who has phoned them up Mr Corkill with a problem – which all of us have to do on regular The Speaker occasions. And for some administrator to exclude me and my colleagues from being able to get the information we The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the have a right to, I find it a bit disgusting, to say the least, and House, with 17 votes for, 5 votes against.

Registration of Electors Act 1984 — Registration of Electors Regulations 2003 — Motion lost Supplementary Orders 2 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 545 T121

In the Council Ð Ayes 2, Noes 5 Paper No. 2 be approved. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. FOR AGAINST Mrs Christian Mr Lowey Mrs Crowe Mr Waft Mr Singer Mr Delaney Papers laid before the Court Mr Gelling The President: Papers, I understand, have been laid, The President: With 5 against, 2 for in the Council, Hon. Members, under the Investment Business Acts 1991 Hon. Members, it fails to carry, Branches in disagreement. to 1993.

Jury Act 1980 Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 Lists of Jurors Regulations 2003 Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) Motion withdrawn (No. 2) Regulatory Code 2003 approved

4. The Minister for the Treasury to move: 3. The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Lists of Jurors Regulations 2003 be approved. That the Financial Supervision Commission [SD No 785/03] (Stockbrokers) (No. 2) Regulatory Code 2003 be approved. [SD No 868/03] The President: Item 4 on the Supplementary Order Paper, I call on the Minister for Treasury to move. The President: We turn then to Item 3, our final item, on the Supplementary Order Paper No. 2. Minister for Mr Bell: Mr President, this – Treasury to move.

The President: Are you taking the two together? Mr Bell: Mr President, the Investment Business Act 1991 empowers the Financial Supervision Commission to Mr Bell: – item 4 is related to item 3 and, looking at it make regulatory codes for investment business. This code now, I think I will have to withdraw it, Mr President, as I relates to stockbrokers, that is, holders of a category 5 do not think this can stand alone. It needs the first part with investment business licence. it. The Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code 2003, which was made by the FSC on 30th October 2003, and recently circulated to Members, contained a typographical error. In paragraph 1 (1), the commencement date was shown as 1st November 2003, and not the intended date of implementation, 1st January 2004, Supplementary Orders 2 as shown in the preamble. On the advice of the Clerk of Tynwald, the Financial Business to be considered under Standing Order 2.2 (6) Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) (No. 2) Regulatory Motion carried Code 2003 was made by the FSC on 3rd December 2003 and this is the Order being laid for approval this evening. 1. The Minister for the Treasury to move: The No. 2 code has the effect of revoking the Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) Regulatory Code That Standing Orders 2.4(1) and 10.9 be suspended and of 2003. The revised commencement date in paragraph 1 that, under Standing Order 2.2 (6), the following business subclause (1) is now 1st January 2004. All other details be considered. remain unchanged. Copies of the No. 2 Code have now been circulated, The President: Hon. Members, in that case we turn to along with a supplement to the explanatory memos the Supplementary Order Paper No. 2 and, again, I call on previously circulated for this sitting. For the avoidance of the Minister for Treasury to move Item 1. doubt, all references to the 2003 Code in the existing explanatory memos should be read as references to the No. Mr Bell: Mr President, I beg to move that Standing 2, 2003 Code. Order 2.4(1) and 10.9 be suspended and that, under Standing The No. 2, 2003 Code, in effect, replaces the provisions Order 2.2(6), the following business be considered. of a Stockbrokers Regulatory Code which came into operation in 1996. When the 1996 Code was made, it was The President: Chief Minister? Mr Earnshaw. largely based on the UK Securities and Futures Authority Rule Book. At that time, most local licence holders were Mr Earnshaw: I beg to second, Mr President, and already subject to that regime. It was, therefore, entirely reserve my remarks. appropriate for the Financial Supervision Commission to put in place a familiar and consistent Code. The President: Hon. Members, I put to you that the Since 1996, the industry profile has changed. Not only Item printed at number 1 on your Supplementary Order have local market trends developed, but UK and

The Registration of Electors Act 1984 — Registration of Electors Regulations 2003 — Motion lost Jury Act 1980 — Motion withdrawn : Business to be considered under Standing Order 2.2 (6) — Motion carrie : Papers laid before the Court Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 — Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) (No. 2) Regulatory Code 2003 approved 546 T121 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 Supplementary Orders 2

International standards have also evolved. The Financial Mrs Craine: Thank you, Mr President. Supervision Commission, in partnership with the industry, I would just like to have some clarification from the reviewed the Code in the light of these changes and the Treasury Minister. The document here is in true Financial following observations were made: much of the terminology Supervision Commission style: ‘a firm must notify a licence had become outdated; certain provisions were no longer holder, should inform a licence holder, shall notify . . .’, but considered to be applicable to the type of business typically nowhere – having set this tone of Code that has to be conducted by stockbrokers on the Island; as other codes complied with – there is nowhere within the document that applicable to other types of investment business have says how these things are going to be enforced, or what evolved, it became apparent that, in some areas, the code of enforcement is to be followed, and I would like Stockbrokers Code was inconsistent. some clarification about that, please. This new Code is now considered to be more concise, more user-friendly, more up to date and more applicable to The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Gelling. local business. The proposed Code is much shorter than the previous Code and, although no additional regulatory Mr Gelling: Yes, thank you, Mr President. burdens have been imposed, the FSC was keen to ensure I am brought to my feet, really, by the Hon. Member for that the regulatory framework was modernised in tune with Onchan, who said that he had only had two days to look at local firms’ needs, conducive to new business – and this, but, actually, it was all out there in the blue folder. The important safeguards to investor protection and IOM PLC only thing that was wrong, it was withdrawn from item 13, were carefully retained in the process. because of the date being wrong, and I just did not want Finally, since the Code has primarily been reviewed and Members to accept that, in fact, Treasury had put this out updated in line with local market practices, it will have very with only two days for people, because it is a complicated little practical impact on the business of local firms and, and very long and detailed Order, but I just did not want therefore, Mr President, I beg to move. that to go without being recorded.

The President: Mr Earnshaw, Hon. Member for The President: Treasury Minister to reply. Onchan. Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Earnshaw: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to It is hardly my fault that this Item is here last thing at second and reserve my remarks. night. Treasury does not dictate the timing of the moving of resolutions; that is entirely dependent upon the business The President: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. in this Hon. Chamber and that is the position we are in at the moment. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I just want to ask the mover – To vote against an item on a matter of principle, because I am bit concerned about this, it is a very complicated Order it happened to be here at half past ten at night, is hardly a and we have only had it a couple of days. I have asked a reason to vote against Government legislation. Nevertheless, friend to look at this, who has got an interest and has some that is for the Hon. Member and his advisers to decide upon. knowledge in this field. My concern is that here we have a (Laughter and interjections) complex piece of legislation and it is put on as a The Hon. Member, my colleague, is concerned about Supplementary Agenda. enforcement. She did give me notice of this question and I As far as I am concerned, we should not be here just can tell the Hon. Member the enforcement elements are nodding things through at half ten at night. We have been included in the Investment Business Act 1991, section 6, criticised just before about the Electricity Act and how we where she will be able to find the relevant information. have allowed for this and it is our fault, and I am just voting Finally, Mr President, can I thank the Hon. Member, against this on principle, of the fact that it is here last thing Mr Gelling, for explaining the situation about the at night – distribution of this document. It is unfortunate that this glitch has happened. It is not the desire or plan of Treasury – I am A Member: Break the habit of a lifetime. as unhappy about it as anyone else – but this is the unfortunate set of circumstances we find ourselves in and I Mr Karran: – and I am always concerned about the beg to move. fact that we are supposed to properly scrutinise these things. I would be interested to hear what other Members have done, The President: Hon. Members, the motion that I put to as far as they are concerned. the Court is that printed at 3 on your Supplementary Order I have talked to somebody – admittedly they have not Paper No. 2, that the Financial Supervision Commission come back and complained about this Order, but it is here, (Stockbrokers) (No. 2) Regulatory Code 2003 be approved. it is an important thing and I am just not happy with the Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes way it is being done. I do feel that we are being, once again, have it. The ayes have it. treated as a convenience as a parliament. There is a separation, we are supposed to scrutinise. We have been criticised in a previous thing about the issue of the Electricity Act and I just feel it is wrong that something Statement by the Minister for the Treasury as complex as this is put on a Supplementary Agenda and I get it a couple of days ago. The President: Minister for Treasury.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mrs Craine. Mr Bell: Yes, sorry, Mr President. Could I just give

Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 — Financial Supervision Commission (Stockbrokers) (No. 2) Regulatory Code 2003 approved Statement by the Minister for the Treasury Supplementary Orders 2 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th DECEMBER 2003 547 T121 notice to the Hon. Chamber, as far as the previous item is Several Members: Hear, hear. concerned the Registration of Electors Regulations 2003 that I would intend to come back in January for a joint vote. The President: The Council will now withdraw and leave the House of Keys to transact such business as Several Members: Hear, hear. Mr Speaker may lay before the Keys.

The President: Hon. Members. It is acknowledged. The Council withdrew.

Procedural

The President: Now, Hon. Members, if I may, in relation to item 25 on your Order Paper today, I just wish to House of Keys express an element of concern, largely on your behalf, or on the Court’s behalf, Hon. Members. The Speaker: Hon. Members, can I just echo the I find nothing wrong in the way it has been handled in sentiments of Mr President and wish you all a happy any regard, other than I find it uncomfortable that, in fact, Christmas and a good New Year, also to our Secretary of we are reaching a position, or we reached a position, of the House and the Messengers and to the Guards. having suddenly to make a decision, when, in fact, in my belief, the Council of Ministers should have been better Several Members: Hear, hear. briefed, probably by the Communications Commission, who should have known that, by 31st December, these licences The Speaker: To those of you going overseas, enjoy were up for renewal and, therefore, the Court could have your trips. been proactive, rather than being reactive. The House will now stand adjourned until 10.30 a.m. I just express that as a concern, in relation to having to on Tuesday, 20th January 2004 in Tynwald Court. Thank implement UK legislation, Hon. Members. you, Hon. Members. Having said that, as this is the last sitting of the Hon. Court before Christmas, I would now like to take the opportunity to wish you and your families a happy and peaceful Christmas. The House adjourned at 10.25 p.m.

Statement by the Minister for the Treasury Procedural