COURT, APRIL 9, 1952 413 for a year. We are doing all we can to member that, as far as the Board of help the. fishermen, but I am perfectly Agriculture is concerned, thcy will do willing to meet them, and Mr Coaole can their best to see that it is paid up to come along too if he wishes, and we date as soon as possible. I have great can have a friendly chat and see if any- pleasure in moving this vote. thing else can be done. Mr Kelly has spoken about the Milk Recording' The Governor: We will take Mr Scheme, and so did Mr Bolton. This Kelly's amendment to reduce the began with half-a-crown grant, but we amount by £750 (the grant for Knock- have raised it to lOs with a minimuni aloe) first. of £4. for any farmer. On a devision, the amendment was Mr Kelly: I raised the matter at the carried in the Council (Messrs Canister, Board; it is unfair to raise it in public._ Kneen, Crellin and Teare voting for), . Mr Cannell: Well, the matter is on but lost by 14 to 7 in the Keys. The the agenda for next week's meeting of voting in the Keys was:— the Board. I have also had a note For: Messrs Crowe, T. Q. Cannel], passed to me in connection with the Coole, Kelly, Bolton, Cowin, and Milk Special Designation Scheme. As the Speaker. I pointed out, this scheme was run by the Local Government Board, and Against: Messrs Corkhill, Corlett, through a misunderstanding between Gerrard, R. C. Cannel!, Farrant, the two boards this scheme elapsed Kerruish, Mrs 13ridson, Messrs from July, 1951, to January, 1952, but Nivison, Brownsdon, Moore, McFee, the payment, I t.Inderstand, by the Cottier, Quine and Taggart. Local Government Board has now been The resolution was carried. . made up to the end of 1951. Mr Crellin: That was explained at The Governor: 'The Court will now the last :Court, Your Excellency. stand adjourned until to-morrow, Thurs- day, at 11 am. Mi Cannell: But I have had a note Sent to me, and I can•promiSe the hon. The Court adjourned.

7■=0-0.111...ed1.■ REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT.

Douglas, Thursday, April 10, 1952.

Present : The Governor (Air Vice- Speaker (Mr S. D Qualtrough, C.B.E.), Marshal Sir Geoffrey R. Bromet, K.B.E., Messrs T. F. Corkhill, H. K. Corlett, C.B., D.S.0.). In the Council : Deem- L. Gerrard, F. H. Crowe, R. C. Cannel-1i ster Cowley, C.B.E., Deemster Johnson, E. B. C. Fprrant, H. C Kerruish, Mrs A. 0.B.E., the Attorney-General (Mr S. J. Bridson, Messrs J. A. C. K. Nivison, Kneale, 0.B.E.), Messrs J. F. Crellin, T. E. Brown sdon, A. Moore, T A. Coole, MC., R. Kneen, G. Higgins, A. J Teare, C. C. McFee, A. S. Kelly, G. P. Quine, M.B.E., and J. Canister, with Mr J. N. J. B. Bolton,- W. C. Craine, and G. Tag- Panes, M.A., Government Secretary and gart, with -- Mr F. B. Johnson, M,A., Clerk to the Council. In the Keys: The Secretary and Clerk to Tynwald.

Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Estimates for Administration Received. 414 TYNWALD . COURT, APRIL 10, 1952

LETTER OF SYMPATHY WITH handled through Government Office. H.M. THE QUEEN.—REPLY. Some members of the Board have ex- The Governor: I have received the pressed the view that we ought to following .:etter handle all our money, but I am perfectly happy to let the system remain as it is; Home Office, it works very well. We have to certify Whttehall, on many of these applications when they •,• 8th April, 1952. come to us, and naturally there is a time lag, and the farmer or person concerned I have had the honour to lay before sometimes wonders how his money has The Qu,-,:en the Loyal and Dutiful not been handed over. Sometimes the Address of the Lieutenant Governor, delay is in our office, and sometimes it Council, Deemsters and Keys of the is in Government Office; but I would say on the occasion of the that it chiefly arises in our own office, lamented death of His late Majesty because we have to make inspections King George the Sixth and have and to certify that the payments are received The Queen's Commands to suitable. That is the reason why there convey to ycitr, and to the Council, is sometimes a delay in these payments. • D:,-einsters and Keys Her Majesty's I hope Mr MeFee will accept my grateful Thanks for the assurances apology. I had such a shower of ques- of sympathy and devotion to which tions to answer; I had questions sent to it gives expression. me, I had various members to reply to I have the honour to be, in the debate, and I really forgot about his question. Sir, , Your Excellency's obedient Servant, Mr McFee: Thank you. DAVID MAXWELL FYFE. Mr R. C. Cannell: As all these items His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor are concerned with food production, I would like to read a paragraph which of the Isle of Man. appeared in the "Isle of Man Daily Times" on Tuesday, headed "Britain BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND Must Produce More Food." It is the FISHERIES.—IMPROVEMENT OF report of a speech by Mr R. A. Hamilton, LIVESTOCK ESTIMATES RE- formerly an officer of the Northern CEIVED. Ireland Ministry of Agriculture, who is Mr R. C. Cannell: I beg to move :— now responsible for farm enterprises in Whereas the Board of Agriculture and Durham, Cheshire, Somerset, and Kirk- Fisheries have submitted their estimate of cudbrightshire. He said at the 'Monthly. £3,000 for the proposed improvement of live- discussion meeting of the Farmers' Club, stock (£1,500) and the purchase of bulls in London, that "in the new world con- (11,500) in the ,financial year ended 31st March, 1953. ditions we shall have to produce in Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- future at least two-thirds of our food cellency to consider the same in framing his and- import not more than one-third, Estimates for the year ending 31st March, unless millions are to go hungry. The 1953. major need was for more meat, which (The amount of the estimate for the year could be produced if the British.farmer 1951-52 was X3,000.) _ could feel assured of a continuing Before proceeding With these resolu- demand for his output at a price giving tions, I have to apologise to the hon. him a reasonable return." That is what member for Rushen, Mr McFee, for the Manx farmer asks for—a guaran-._ omitting to answer a question he asked teed outlet for his produce, at a price me yesterday. I am sincerely sorry that which will give him a reasonable Are- I omitted to reply to him, and I assure turn. The amount of this vote is the him it was not 'done intentionally. The same as that which was requested from, last resolution, item .16 on the _agenda, and voted by, the Court last. year. It covers all .the Board's administrative is used to finance the Board's schemes expenses... Items 17, 18, 19, 20, 21; 23, for the improvement of livestock, in- 24 and 25 relate to moneys which the cluding (a) the importation of high Board does not handle; they 'are quality stock bulls; (b) the purchase

Letter of Sympathy with H.M. the Queejt—Reply.—Board of Agriculture and - - ---Fisheries-Improvement of eLivestock Estimates Received. !TYNWALl? COURT, , APRIL- 10, 1 1952 -415 and maintenance of bulls for artificial ally in the late summer and autumn, insemination; (c) premiums for bulls that haven't yet been faced squarely by 'presented at the annual spring show of the farmers, by the meat trade, or by the the Royal Manx Agricultural Society; Government." I think that if we in- (d) hire of stallions; (e) grants to crease out stocks in the Island, the same shows; and (f) the destruction of problems will arise. Fattening on sum- rabbits and other vermin. It has been mer grass is the easiest and most econo- the policy of the Board for many mical method, and this will, I think, give years to purchase bulls at sales in Eng- ' weight to inquiries which are being made land in the spring of the year, and then about cold storage. I have great plea- resell these bulls to farmers. By this sure in supporting the resolution. means the Island's livestock has been maintained and improved by the use of Mr Nivison: Each year now,-we have high-quality sires. The policy of im- a vote of some £3,000, chiefly for the porting bulls for resale was discon- importation of bulls, and I Wonder if continued in the spring of last year. the Board of Agriculture can give the The Board has concentrated on the im- Court some information on whether this portation of outstanding bulls for arti- policy has been a success, and if they ficial insemination purposes, and this intend to continue to import bulls each service is progressing to such an ex- year. If I read correctly, the judge at tent that almost half of the cow and the recent spring show of the Agri- heifer population in Manx herds are Cultural Society seemed to state that all being dealt with in this way. One was not well with the livestock of the thousand five hundred pounds of the Island. I Wonder if the Board them- amount requested will be earmarked for selves are satisfied, if they themselves •the purchase of stock bulls during the have confidence in the present policy of forthcoming financial year. producing and improving livestock; or will the time ever arke when there will Mr Brownsdon: I would like to com- not be a necessity to import stock, or pliment the chairman of the Board of will they still want more? Agriculture on the extract he has read from a newspaper, which emphasised Mr Coole: I quite agree with what the necessity for looking after home pro- was said in the speech read by the chairman of the Board of Agriculture. duction of food. The "Times' (London), But I have been concerned over the commenting on the same point recently, Board's policy. As the gentleman who .pointed out that in Australia and New made the speech said, we want more Zealand, which are countries • largely beef., I am -just wondering if the Board concerned with the production of meat, of Agriculture favour the Ayrshire cow, the farmers have pacts for 15 years, for producing more milk, or the dual- promising them an adequate market for purpose beast for milk and for beef. everything they can produce. It is where It appears to me that at present we are farmers know for a long period of years going in for more milk, and not so ahead that there is going to be a market much beef. I am wondering what the for their produce, that they 'can plan to Board thinks about the dual-purpose produce. The "Times" goes on to say, animal. after reviewing the question of home Mr Callister: I can say without any production, and pointing out the shadow of doubt, that the importation diminishing resources of meat available of good bulls has made a very marked for the country: "These circumstances all impression in the Isle of Man, in the im- point to the need for pursuing a con- portation of cattle, and I sincerely hope sistent meat .production policy in that it will be the aim of the Board Britain. We have large areas of upland of Agriculture to continue doing this. and hill, where more beef cattle could be But; I would like to say a word with economically bred for fattening on bet- regard to the improvement of stock in ter ground. These additional supplies of general. I think we are making a very home-killed meat will come in mainly off great mistake in not taking more care summer grass, and they constitute prob- to watch the stock that is coming as re- lems of slaughter and marketing, especi- placements of: stock which is being got

poard:of. Agriculture and Fisheries-'—Improvement of Livestock Estiinates ReceivecE 416 TYNWALD COURT, APREL 10, 1952 rid of by Government assistance. I Board of Agriculture, at the rate of E0 think the Island has now a unique op- many premiums for each district, unless portunity for the improvement of stock, the judge is convinced that the bulls an opportunity which probably we have placed before him are worthy to be never had—not in my time at least. The used as sires, he should turn them door is now open, and if we adopt even down. I hope that some policy of this the recommendations of the "Crellin" sort will be adopted in the future. Commission to a much greater extent than we do now, the Island will be Mr Gerrard: I agree that the judge much better off. If we,had the importa- was somewhat critical in his comments tion at the moment, of practically all upon the stock paraded before him that dual-purpose cattle, I think we should day, but there are one or two points hare a- very marked improvement. that must not be lost sight of. The Cattle are being got rid of by the gentleman in question is in a very happy hundred, inferior cattle, and care should position. He has an unlimited purse at be taken at this stage to bring in good his disposal, and he has the finest equip- types— and not only that, but cattle ment in the British Isles to work' with. in calf rather than cattle which have He looked upon the Manx stock with calved, or else good class calves. I the critical eye of a "super-expert." He think the Board of Agriculture to- condemned certain of the bulls, not be- day will realise that we are getting cause they were of insufficient merit for rid of so many cattle, and I am breeding, but because they were par- glad that this improvement of the herds aded in front of him in a somewhat is being done to the extent which it 's, slipshod manner, and did not come ,up but if we have the opportunity to to the show standard he was ac- replace beasts, it is surely wise to re- customed to One of his comments was 'place them with beasts of a better with regard to the bulls' feet, and in its standard. I think, too, that if we are life the hull depended on its feet to to keen our actual numbers of cattle perform its duties and do its service. up, we shall have to import at least a The point, Your Excellency, is that calf for every cow, and if, as I say, we many of the farmers have not the imported either in-calf cows or well- equipment, such as the stocks, to do bred calves, which could be got direct do the necessary trimming of the feet. from good breeders, we should be doing That was one of his severest criticisms. the Island a good service. I sincerely Another criticism by the judge was that hope that the Board will very quickly we were using the Scotch beef Short- take steps to see that this is done. horn bull, which he described as sense- less, and thought it was doing the Island Mr Qulne: The remarks of the judge a disservice. Unfortunately he spoke at the recent spring show have been late in the evening, and no one had an commented upon, and I think that they opportunity to reply. The hon. mem- have thrown some light upon the system ber for Rusher), Mr Coale, said. we were of awarding premiums for bulls. As a over producing with regard to milk, member of the Board, I am not very and we have not sufficient beef; but I happy about that system myself. The want the Court to realise that the only Board is requested to provide so-many stock we can breed from is the cow, premiums; or, they allow so-many pre- if we want meat. If we eliminate the miums for each district. The judge ad- cow we automatically eliminate her off- mitted that he had allowed premiums spring. From the date of service it to be awarded to bulls which were not takes three years nine months to pro-, worthy of them—not of sufficient merit, duce a good bullock. The figures have not up to standard. I don't know who shown a surplus of milk in the past were his advisers, but it seems to me year, but not .enough time has been that he was told that the Board had so- given for adjustment. It needs patience. much money, so-many premiums to You cannot hurry Nature. A lot of give, and therefore he spread them out people who think that farmers are only over so-many people. I think that the concerned with milk will be surprised standard should be tightened up when they find that a great deal more Although the "ceiling" is fixed by the meat is forthcoming in the near future. -4 Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Improvement of Livestock Estimates Received. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 16, 19'62 41/

The .criticisms of the judge, I think, are keen on Ayrshires and others on were in some cases fair, and in other dairy shorthorns. The Board of Agri- cases - unjustified. The point is that culture have done their best to en- there is a difference between the con- coUrage production, and I do not think ditions here and the State-run in:Alain:— that there has ever been a better set of ation centres he is used to. He can sires than those standing at Knockaloe pick and choose his bulls from rthe at the moment. I have listened to the finest stud farms in the British Isles, remarks -of the judge, but I prefer io and money is no object. Here we-have take my cue, 'not from a paid servant, the. Board of Agriculture tsking for but from one of our own farmers. lf £3,000 to cover the purchase of bulls the judge took over one of our farms and several other items, and yet ques- he might find as much difficulty hi tions are asked. Some gentlemen wou:d making his waY as some of the farmers think nothing of paying £5,000 for the here who have had the experience and hiring of a -bull.- I think the Board are know what the Island requires. If the doing a useful. job -in :providing- the best • Board can get a solution to the problem breeding stock to the Island that their of replacements, and dairy cows were purse will allow. . improved 5 I think they would be doing a Mr Kerruish: I Would not like the service, but it is difficult to interfere idea to get about, Your Excellency, that with the individual farmers. I think the prerrriurn system is not practicable. I more emphasis must be placed on the About 10 per cent, of the anirnalg were • most useful beast, the shorthorn. turned - down by the judge as hot af Mr Bolton: I was surprised, Your Ex- sufficient 'merit, but his comments with . cellency, to hear the remarks made by regard to the other animals were in the- two of the members of the Board. From way they were paraded. The Board the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr were informed of this, and premiums, Corkhill's remarks, one might wonder will not be paid unless the attention is why the judge was asked to judge stock given to their feet, which he thought in the Isle of Man, if he thought some necessary. I do nOt think that his re- local farmer would be a better judge. marks Were detrimental- to the farmer' •But surely he was asked here because breeding the best bulls he can. The he *as the best person qualified to estirriate here is only the purchase price judge. The hon. member for Garff, Mr of one good animal. The Board have Kerruish, says the money to be voted been fortunate in buying the best ; is only enough to buy one good bull, animals that may be available to but to my knowledge they have bought farmers. The question has been raised I about three bulls for £900. with regard to the dairy herds of the Island. The Board of Agriculture have Mr Kerruish: The next replacement already taken steps with regard to the will be a dual-purpose shorthorn. That breeding of out and out dairy stock. kind of animal' will cost £1,500, but the They say that the farmers must have , beef animal would be much less. the 1.)O1icy that the dairy herd must be ' Mr R. C. Cannell: I am grateful to' maintained as such, and there must not : merhliers of the Court who have taken be cross breeding. In the insemination part in the debate. With regard to the centre the Board has placed emphasis estimate, £1,500 is earmarked for in- on beef. They have several bulls, and semination purposes, and if it is not re, only one dairy bull, so the emphasis is quired,- that would not be used, and for on beef. I hope the Court will support . other items; such as premiums for the this vote, because I think it will be • hire of stallions, grants to various instrumental in the improvement of the shows, demonstrations and exhibitions, breeding stocks of the Island. and other, items. •-As to the Board's Mr Corkhill: The hon. ffiebber Of the policy with regard to Ayrshires and Council, Mr Callister, was-referring to dual-purpose animals, the Board are the replacement of stock, which. Is unanimouS that it should be dual-pur- rather a big problem for the Board. pose breeding, but things are happening There is a difference of opinion anlong in the Island which cut the feet from the individual farmers. Some farmers Under the dual-purpose = man. ' The , - • Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Improvement of Livestock Estimates Received. 418 TYNWALD= COURT, , APRIL' '10, 1952. farmer who has to buY replacements. . ewes at full rate; and 374 ewes at half and buys a good dual-purpose cow 's, rate, totalling £3,974 5s. The • rate" penalised, because he is. only allowed approved for England and Scotland in to sell the proportion of milk for his the year. ahead is 2s. 6d. per eligible ewe cows, not on the basis of the amount of at full rate of subsidy, and last -year it gallons of milk a cow yields, but was 6s. per head. This scheme. has to' on the number of cows he -has. be approved by His Excellency and sub- A man with 10 cows yielding 400 mitted to Tynwald.- As I have Stated, gallons is not assisted to sell the rate in England and See:Oat-id is more milk than. a man with 10 cows 2s. 6d. per ewe at full rate and is. 3d. yielding 1,000 gallons, so it is not alto- at half rate. We. were a year behind gether fair. It does not seem to be England coming into this scheme. Two understood in this Court that the years ago England reduced the price per • premiums were different . in England ewe from 10s. to 5s. The Board from the Isle of Man. I agree with the approached His Excellency and ex- hon. member for Garff, Mr Kerruish, . plained that they were a year behind;: when he said. that a suitable dual-pur- and rather than come down such a -big pose animal could not be bought under drop, it was agreed to- come down for. £1,500. That has been proved many two years to 7s. 6d. per ewe.. That times, and we have seen dual-purpose •period has lapsed this year, so .there will: bulls sold for £3,009. I hope the Court have to be a new scheme approved by, will pass this vote. •His Excellency. The Board desire to. The resolution was carried: follow the English scheme as far as.pos-. sible. The inspectors are doing good: work. For example, a year last Octo--: HILL SHEEP SUBSIDY—ESTIMATE ber• an inspector pointed out to a flock . RECEIVED • owner that half of. his flock were of .ani tin,suitable class of stock. This year the Mr- R. C. Cannell: I. beg- to move the man applied for exactly 14.1t, the nurh-..„- resolution .standing in my .name:— her of sheep, and when he'h;V4s. asked' Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Agricul-- about the others, he said he hitef=buried ture and Fisheries have submitted .their estimate of £4,000 for the purpose of defray-. every one. So' it proves that the inspec- ing the expenses. -cost of the scheme tors, know their job, and if the flock? approved by Hislency xcel -fcir ,the payment owner Aries to .raise too many -sheep, or of a subsidy on hill sheep for the year ending the wrong kind on the hills, the. inspec-• 31st March. 1953. • tor can tell. him and advise the Board:, Resolved,--that . Tynwald . requests His Ex- cellency to give consideration to the same in I have pleasure in moving the resolu- framing the Estimates for the year 1952/53. tion. (The amount of. the Estimate for- the year. Mr Farrant-:- I beg to second-the resoH , 1951-52 was 1.5,000.1 lution. The amount requested 'last Year- *as, Mr Brownsdon: I would like to a-sk £5,000. The scheme follows that which. what rate the Board - have in mind for has been in opetation .in Great _Britain the ensuing year. It' is of 'valuable' for a number of years, and is an effort assistance to the farmer, as it eticourageS to assist hill farmers who mainly rely the 'people whcr prochice a very large' on sheep for their livelihood., Thein- , supply of Island meat, and it-Would not spectors under the scheme 'lave reported. do to 'discourage 'them: . • ' to the Board that there is a, marked. im- Mr R. •C.' Cannell: The English :rate, provement in the management of flOcks,' is 2S.' 6d. full rate, and is. 3d. half, rate. and have made certain recommendations _ . . _ as to the operation of the scheme in the Mr Kelly: Could the chairrnan of )the'. future. The inspectors looked over 46 Board' of Agriculture say -What-price the 'flocks in connection with the last scheme- hill sheep--were selling • at by Ramsey which was for ewes on Manx hill§ as at Mart last Monday?-. - • 1st October, 1951. The rate payable was. , Mr:R. C. Cannell: have-nOt been in 7s. 6d. per eligible ewe at full. rate; and.: Ramsey .as.-fecently as the.horff nietriber; 35. 9d. Per eligible ..ewe athalf.rate. The, but 1 was- told that they'were not hill: numbers, of sheep certified. were 10,411 sheep, and that WhoeVer 'bought them- , „ Hill Sheep Subsidy—Estimate Received. - T'5iNWALD COURT, • • APRIL 10* 1952 419

would' have to put them on to pasture. stru.etive talk. "No names, .no pack I- believe- the price was 15 guineas, made drill,?? but I think I may say that the .. up of -ewes and lambs. Board of Agriculture is grateful to mem- Mr Quine : We are aware that the cost bers_ of. Tynwald for. the continued in- of feeding, and labour, etc., 'has gone terest they take in all these matters, and that they realise the absolute_ necessity uP;, but I do not know if the cost_.of raising mountain .-lambs has gone . up. for getting-agriculture in the Isle of Man on a firm basis, giving the farmer the There is•not. much .difficulty in feeding. In that Yet the prices which they get for the chance to produce the food. lambs and sheep have gone up con- monumental work, Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations," it is laid down. as a siderably. fundamtental. truth that agriculture Mr Brownsdon: What about the losses is the backbone of every country, incurred in a single snowstorm? and .I do not think that in all the Mr Quine: The .hili farmer is the man years since it has been written that any- who is getting the increased price with one has been able to disprove that fact. the lowest expense, and I cannot under- In the hungry 40's when agriculture was stand it._ . . negleeted, the whole country went down and desperate efforts had to be made to .Mr Crowe': If the hon. member had bring' it up again. I . feel, personally, •the ,-experience of sheep rearing on the hills for a number of years he would grateful to members of Tynwald for the know that the risk is entirely different, sympathetic way they have received and with one snowstorm: a big propor- these „votes._ tion of the flock might be lost. I have Mr .R. Canne111, I?. have nothing fur:- known'. over 100 sheep driven on to a ther to .say in reply, but I am very grate- barbed wire fence and frozen a few ful .to:-...thy colleague as he has hit the years ago. nail on the head. - _ Mr Bolton: If a /Ian lost his. sheep The resolution was- carried. in a snowstorm he would not have to get a subsidy, . so .what difference does it make? ISLE OF' MAN BOARD OF AGRICUL- TURE' AND - FISHERIES—ATTESTED Mr-Brownsdon : Then the whole HERDS SCHEME. ESTIMATES capital has gone. FOR £60,000 RECEIVED. Mr Farrant: I think this scheme has Mr R. C. Cannel!: I beg to move:— done very ..good work in getting the Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Agricul- sheep bock on the hill. I am glad that ture and Fisheries have . submitted their the chairman prefaced his remarks by estimate of' £60.000, made up as follows to sr, defray the expenses and cost of the Tuber- saying- that the ambunt Was reduced, culosis (Attested Herds) Scheme for the this was not 'another of the increases for eradication of bovine tuberculosis in the Isle food production, and I think we should Of Man in the financial year ending 31st realise that this, is not a question of March. 1953. feather-bedding the farmer. I was read- Compensation for re-actors ' £35,000 ing in -the Parliamentary Journal of the Cost of Milk Schemes 25.000 debate,between the Parliament of Ceylon over food prOdurctidn. and the world wide 'aso,000 shortage of foOd, ahd- I noted that the Resolved—that TYriwald -requests His Ex- ginliter of -Food dOcIared -that one of cellency to give, consideration to the same in the princiPal. CauseS" of the shortage of framing the -Estimates for the--year 1952-53. food was that people had ceased to pro- (The amount of the Estimate for -the year duce -it, and had become more interested 195.1-52 was £54,000._)_ , _ in talking—AC:int - if. That may be so in The amount requested: on this occasion the Parliament Of Ceylon, and in other is £60,000, and this is made up from Parliaments, but I do not, think that it :i.'35,000 for the cost --of reactor cattle applieS. to Tynwald.- It is tiVe:that we and. £25000 .c•dst of milk bonus. The haNi-e-plentY",of-falk, but ,I1 think it is d Court -has - already- reCaived -a compre- healthy sign :and: With- one or two ex- heri-Sive- - report - bf s: -the-- Government cePtions (Lattghter),"-Ithink it is eon- veterinary officer Igir -the Year -ending _ Isle-bf-Min:Boaixt briAtriculttire:iind Fitheries -Aftested- Herds Eitimatei tor .k60,000. RebeiVed.-- 426 TYNWAIM COURT, API= 10, 052

31st December, 1951, showing the pro- Mr Brownsdon: Human beings cannot gress which has been made, and the get bovine T.B. They get human T.B. Court has approved the extension of the Mr Nivison: I think the question compulsory areas. The Sheading of should be given some serious thought. Rushen, with the exception of a very We know that as small children we small area in the extreme south of the were inoculated against smallpox, and Island, is still a voluntary area, and the I understand it is done by injecting a whole of the north of the Island from serum containing smallpox germs, and a line drawn east to west from Laxey some hold the theory that if you drink river to Orrisdale shore in Michael is in milk containing a small percentage, of the same position. The progress under germs similar to the T.B. germ, one the scheme is being well maintained, becomes immunised, or, in other words, and the amounts which have been ex- inoculated against T.B. I was wonder- pended to the 31st March, 1952, are ing if scientists held strong views on made up of £62,291 3s for compensation that theory. I know that Mr Drunuriond on reactor cattle and £18.025 5s 2d for held the view very strongly that the bonus payments on milk, a total of only way to become immune to any £80,316 8s 2d. On the revenue side disease was to build up resistance to it £26,720 13s 3d has been received. in the way I have mentioned. I hope The Speaker: What revenue was that? this very expensive scheme will produce. Mr R. C. Cannel]; From carcases and the right result in the long run. I have hides. We are very sorry that we could spoken to farmers on this subject, and not see our way to ask for more money they, hold the view that whereas in for this vote, because if we could get theory it would be nice to have an the Island cleared quickly, we might be entire herd free, in practice they doubt able to reduce the Health Services vote if it would have the desired effect. and the Publicity Board vote, and let Mr Bolton: On that very point the our friends know that they can come to hon. member rased, I remember I the Isle of Man and get pure supplies raised the point when the scheme was of milk T.B.-free. first considered. If you fence people The Speaker: More meat is what we round, or put them in a glass case, it want. might 'have a detrimental effect. I Mr R. C. Connell: We can have more remember. in a recent case of infantile meat if we pay for it. (Laughter.) The paralysis it was stated that people in side the compulsory areas, but we countries where there is filth every- "vets" have been kept very busy, and where are seldom subject to the disease, we have also had applications from out- whereas people living in sanitary cannot take them yet, but on the whole conditions are frequently victims of the scheme is working very well. infantile paralysis. The point I want Mr Kerruish: I beg to second the to stress for the benefit of the Court is resolution. that as the scheme goes on, the amount for the milk is bound to grow, while the Mr Nivison: I wonder if the Board of amount for the replacement of cattle is Agriculture has gone deeply into the bound to become less, and unless the problem of T.B., insomuch as I under- amount is greater year by year, the stand that at the present moment we scheme will be slowed up. If it goes on are drinking milk which may or may for five years, more will have to be not be slightly affected by T.B. germs, spent in the later part of the five years which are thus given us in small doses, than in the earlier part because of the and the constitution is then able to cost of the milk bonus, which is now build up resistance to active T.B.. but £25-,000 out of £60,000, whereas it was once the position arises when we will infinitesimal in the first years of the be drf inking milk completely free of scheme. T.B., will we be more liable to contract the disease when visiting Great Britain, Mr Moore: I am going to support this where this scheme is not in operation resolution, although I am wondering if and milk might be infected with small the scheme is worth all the money the doses of bovine T..13,7 Government is paying for it. I have

Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Attested Herds Scheme- Estiinates for £60,000 Received. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL .10, 1952 421

4-2A the feeling, after speaking to many culture's fault in not getting the money farmers, that they are not in agreement paid over quickly, that they take steps 3 with the scheme. I was talking to one to see that the administration is im- particular agriculturist, and he was all proved so that farmers can get their against it, and I am wondering if we money within, say, a month of the time are doing the right thing in spending all the beast has been slaughtered. Another this money. I have also been told that point I want to bring forward is about this scheme is one of the reasons why calves. Some calves from non-attested there is a shortage of beef in the Isle herds are sold in the marts, and farmers of Man, and I would like to know if with attested herds can buy. these calves that is a fact. I know there is a - and house them on their property. shortage of calves, and I_hear that only Mr Brownsdon: That is illegal. s last week calves were fetching £8 a head. I do not know whether this is a Mr Coole: I am told they can buy the fact, but it is what a farmer told me. calves and isolate them for one month, but I want to know what happens to Mr Corlett : I have no intention for those calves when the month is up. An one moment of being drawn into a inspector goes round occasionally and controversy on the merits or otherwise inspects the herds, and I take it that he of this scheme, but what I would like inspects these calves at the same time, to point out to the Court is that it is but a period of two or three months rather 'unfortunate that these argu- may elapse before the inspector gets ments against the scheme were not dealt back to the farm where the calf is. I with three years ago. It was three years would like to know fram the chairman ago that we dealt with the principle of what is the position about a calf bought the scheme and, rightly or wrongly, from a non-attested herd. decided in its favour. The only thing The Speaker: There is one question I before the Court this morning is a vote want to ask, although I agree with Ms to enable it to be carried on. I would Corlett that we have agreed to this make an appeal- to the Court. We have scheme, and we must go on with it, but only reached item 19, and there are 38 as there is obviously a great increase items. We are only half-way through in the supply of T.T. milk, can the the agenda, and we have been sitting Board -devise some scheme whereby the for two-and-a-half days. If we are members of the public who want T.T. going to argue hie this about a scheme milk are able to get it, or is it a fact we have already adopted, we will finish that T.T. milk and non-attested milk by rushing through in a few minutes all goes into the same churn, so that important items at the end of the the public does not know what it is agenda. I intend to support the vote. getting? , Mr Coole: In view of the remarks of Mr Teare: The hon. member for the hon. member for Glenfaba, I might Rushen, Mr Coole, dealt with one point draw attention to the fact that he took I was going to raise, but there is five hours to move the estimates for the another question I would like to ask. Board of Education, and I can see no Having eliminated the infected animal3 objection to seeking information when from a herd, have there been cases , it is information the public requires, recurrence of T.B. in the herd? Unless and which is for the good of the Island. attested calves -are bought, the herd 35 I am supporting this vote of the Board likely to be reinfected. of- Agriculture's, but with regard to the £35,000 for compensation for reactors, Mr Gerrard: I sincerely hope that the I am informed that it takes farmers remarks about the presence of T.B. three to four -months to get payment of germs in milk will not be taken too compensation for animals that have seriously. Most people will feel very been slaughtered on their premises. squeamish if they are told that every Farmers have got to replace these cows, glass of milk they take has a certain and some of them have not got the amount of T.B. germs in it. My belief ready cash with which to do it. I would is that at all times prevention is better suggest that if it is the Board of Agri- than cure, but, as it is, a lot of money

Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Attested Herds Scheme— Estimates for £60,000 Received. 422 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952

is being spent by the Government to average will be maintained. I hope that protect people against infected milk, will dispel the idea that cattle are not and the Corporation also takes samples being produced. The supply of fat sheep of milk from time to time to be sure and lambs is down because of the very that it is free from infection. To my severe storms of 1940 and 1950, but pigs mind it is much better to remove the are up quite a bit. I would like the Court fear altogether by means of this scheme to be clear on this. We are producing than to have the idea always in mind goods in the Isle of Man perhaps better that T.B. milk is being sold to the than any other proportionate part of public at large. There was also the the British Isles. When listening to Mr question raised about the production of Speaker, yesterday, on his Publicity meat, and the hon. member for Ram- vote, I was thinking that the best ad- sey said that calves were now fetching vertisement the Island had was its fresh ZEI at the marts. meat supply. That has been confirmed Mr Kelly : I never said any such over and over again by the boarding- thing house keepers. Mr Gerrard: The price has increased The Attorney-General: When we considerably because more farmers are get it. keeping the calves for rearing, and Mr Callister: There is more Manx there are not enough surplus calves to beef to-day than pre-war. meet the demand. Another point is that a lot of young beef cattle when Mr Coole: Then why is there such a killed in the abbatoirs of the Island are shortage? condemned because they are infected Mr Callister: There is a shortage of with T.B. When T.B. is eliminated lamb for the reasons I have stated, but there will be an increase of meat all there should be a good supply next round. I feel certain, Your Excellency, year that this Court is really fully in favour Mr Coole: Yes, in October when it is of the scheme and that members are too late. only shooting a line to see what happens. Mr R. C. Cannell: I would like to Mrs Bridson: Sixty thousand pounds assure the hon. member for that is being asked far to make the beasts that produce milk free from diseat.e, England is following our policy and is but I would like to ask what examina- likely to be clear within a few years of tion takes place of the • people deliver- us, and I should also like to state for his ing milk, to make sure that the utensils information that in the past year we have are clean? gone outside the compulsory area to test milk. The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Mr Crowe: I would like to ask what Moore, talked about the high cost of the percentage of the cattle have been taken scheme and wondered if it was worth it to slaughter, and what percentage when and whether it was causing the short- killed were found to be unfit for human consumption? Mr Speaker raised the age of beef. The shortage of beef is not question of T.T. milk being mixed with due to the scheme, but because of the ordinary milk A man stopped me on exceptional circumstances which arose a yrospect Hill a fortnight ago and asked year last winter, when many young me how to get payment for his milk. cattle died because of a fodder shortage. He said he only started, farming last The other hon. member for Rushen, Mr November, and was owed over £100 for Coole—and I would like to say now that attested milk he had handed in at the I am very grateful to Mr Coole for more dairy. I do not want to mention his reasons than one—ever since he came name, but I can give it to the chairman into the Court, if he gets a problem set- of the Board. him by farmers, he comes and asks me, Mr Callister: Remarks have been and never hits below the belt. He does made about the quantity of meat avail- not go to farmers and accept the able since the scheme came into force, answers they give him without investiga- but I can say that the number of fat tion. He has asked me questions on ' cattle sold shows an increase of 567 over many an occasion, and if I have not been the figures for 1939, and I think that able to give him the answer at the time,

Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Attested Herds Scheme— Estimates for £60,000 Received. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 423

I have found the answer and given it to were 40 reactors, or .90 per cent. On him. He talked about the purchase of the sixth test there were 3,767 cattle and calves. That is allowed. A T.T. herd 22 reactors, or .58 per cent. The number farmer is allowed to purchase a calf of cattle tested during the seventh, from the marts, but he must isolate the eighth and ninth tests was 3,423, and calf and notify the Board immediately. there were 14 reactors, which amounts to A month later the inspector goes out and .40 per cent., or one-third of a beast in tests it, and if it passes the test it is 100. The hon. member for Garff asked allowed to mix with the herd. If it what is being done about the examina- does not pass the test it is destroyed, but tion of the people who handle the milk. it is not allowed to mix with the herd I would like to point out to the lady that unless it passes the test. We issue them she is a member of the Local Govern- with what we call a restricted licence. ment Board, and that that matter is in Now, it is in an attested area we have a the hands of the inspectors of the Local restricted licence. The same will hap- Government Board. They look after the pen to you if you have too many Irish people who handle the milk. The hon. beef cattle and you have to provide member for Michael has asked me a either to isolate or pasture them. If question which I am unable to answer. there is no pasture we will have to That is about the percentage of re- double fence the place so that they will actors unfit for human consumption. not come into contact with other cattle I cannot answer that offhand, but I can outside. The Speaker asked about the get the information and furnish the supplies of T.T. milk. All I can say Court with it later. The hon. member there is that according to one Isle of Man for Michael also raised a similar ques- Dairies' advertisement in the Press they tion to Mr Speaker, but it has nothing to were receiving 1,000 gallons daily of T.T. do with the Board of Agriculture.' milk, and they could supply any cus- The resolution was carried. tomer who requested it. I am satisfied that if the Dairies have 1,000 gallons of T.T. milk now, by next month they will AGRICULTURAL DRAINAGE.— have three times that amount coming in, ESTIMATE OF £10,000 RECEIVED. The Speaker: Does that apply any- Mr R. C. Cannell: I beg to move:— Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Agricul- where in the Island? ture and Fisheries have .submitted their Mr R. C. Cannell: • The Dairies will estimate of £10.000 for the purpose of defray- ing the cost of one-half of approved expendi- supply anywhere in the Isle of Man, I ture by individuals or by owners- and/or understand. There is a difference, I occupiers of adjoining lands who combine would like to point out, between T.T. to tarry out schemes of agricultural drain- age in pursuance of a scheme prepared by and accredited milk. Accredited milk, the Board and 'approved by His Excellency for which there is a payment of lid per the Lieutenant-Governor in the financial gallon, has got to be sold in sealed con- year ending 31st March. 1953. tainers. The hon. member of the Coun- ReSolVed.—that Tynwald requests His Ex- cil, Mr Teare, has asked whether there cellency to give consideration to the same in framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. was a recurrence of T.B. coming up in (The amount of the Estimate for the year the later tests. I am very sorry, but the 1951/52 Was £5,000. but a supplementary vote hon. member, the same as other mem- of £4100 was passed.) bers, was sent a copy of the vet.'s report As I moved for a similar vote a month dated 14th January, in which he pointed ago, I Would at this time yesterday have out that in the first test, out of 8,905 the said that there is no occasion for me to number of reactors was 2,807 or 31.5 cover the ground again, but last night, per cent. On the second test, of 6,529 after I had given.way to another hon. there were 233 reactors, or 3.5 per cent. member, he had the audacity to say that On the third test of 6,157 cattle, the the Court was entitled to some explana- reactors numbered 126, or 2.04 per cent. tion. It is 20 miles from here to my On the fourth test of 5,921 cattle there home, and it costs me the same for 10 were 63 reactors, which is 1.01 per cent., minutes here as a day, so I will take my and on the fifth test of 4,405 cattle there time.

Agricultural Drainage—Estimate of £10,000 Received. .:424 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952

• Mr Nivison: •What about ' the rest I may say that last year we reduced this of Us? scheme for the first time, and at the Mr R. C. Cannell: This agricultural time we realised that there would • drainage scheme is the same as one be trouble one way or the other,-but-we . which has been in force in Great Britain decided to come forward with a scheme for a number of years. Under its pro- and amend it according to how we found visions farmers are allowed 50 per cent. things were working out for us. The •of the cost of approved schemes for vote we • asked for last year was the draining of fields, cleaning ditches, stub- same as this year, £5,000. It is for bing gorse, making good farm roads, and paying a subsidy for cattle which are the rebuilding of hedges, including pro- raised on the hill and upland farms. It tective fencing. There is not much oc- follows very closely the scheme in Eng- casion for me to say that without ade- land. We took the English and Scottish quate drainage it is futile to attempt to schemes, blended them together, and improve the land and obtain produc- took what we thought most suitable to tivity. The scheme affords an oppor- Manx conditions. The rates of subsidy tunity to farmers to reclaim good land are these: No. (1) is for breeding cows, .which has gone out of cultivation in the both home-bred and imported from the period of depression in the industry just United Kingdom or Eire (other than prior to the war, when conditions were cows producing milk for sale and includ- suCh that the employment of labour on ing, in relation to milk production for drainage, etc., was not justified by the sale, cows seasonably dry) kept con- state of farming being experienced. A tinuously on hill grazings or upland great deal of improvement has been car- farms for a full period of 12 months ried. out under the scheme with the prior to 1st April, 1953. For these we limited labour and material available, ask £6 per head. No. (2) is for breed- and the demand for assistance has in- ing cows and heifers, both home-bred creased. It is gratifying to the Board to and imported from the United Kingdom know that the scheme is being taken up or Eire, kept continuously on hill graz- more readily by farmers than in the ings or upland farms for the qualifying past, as it will be recalled that small period, and suckling calves for not less amounts of expenditure have been re- than 12 months of the qualifying period. ported when this vote has been debated We ask £4 per head for these; and then on previous occasions. Last year We No. (3) is for steers and heifers, both estimated for £5,000, and a month ago home-bred and imported from the United we had to come forward and ask for a Kingdom or Eire, kept continuously on further £4,100. hill grazings or upland farms for not Mr Corkhill seconded. less than 16 weeks of the- qualifying period. For these we ask a sum of The resolution was carried. £2 17s. 6d. per head. As I said, dia.' culty was experienced in the first year of the operation of the scheme. A num- ber of farmers who were entitled, or CATTLE-REARING SUBSIDY SCHEME would have been entitled to the subsidy, —ESTIMATE OF £5,000 RECEIVED. were precluded because the number of Mr R. C. Cannell: I beg to move:— breeding cows on the bills was insuffi- cient to meet the wording of the scheme. Whereas thIs1e of Man Board of Agricul- ture and Figeries have" submitted their It was six cows, and now we have re- estimate of £5,500 for the purpose of defray- duced that to three cows. The payments ing the expenses and cost of the Cattle made to 31st March, 1952, were (for Rearing Subsidy Scheme approved by Tyn- breeding cows) 241, at £6 per head; wald on the 22nd June, 1951. in the financial £1,446; for breeding cows and heifers, year ending 31st March, 1953. four at £4 per head, £16; and for steers Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- cellency to give consideration to the same In and heifers, 433 at £2 17s. 6d. per head, framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. £1,224 17s..6d.; a total of £2,706 17s. fid. (The amount of the Estimate for the year 1951-52 was R5.000.) Mr Kerruish seconded.

Cattle Rearing Subsidy Scheme—Estimate of £5,000 Received. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 425

Mr Crowe: I would like to ask the in accordance • with the agreement' ' mover- of the resolution, on behalf of announced yesterday. several farmers, whether itis a fact that no person receiving a subsidy on hill Tynwald agreed that the resolution - cattle can have a subsidy on beef? should be held over. Mr R. C. Cannell: No, sir, that is not so. A farmer may feed his beasts- and have a lowland farm, and he can put LIME AND OTHER•FERTILISERS'.. . these cattle on the hille then bring them SCHEME ESTIMATE OF £20,900 down. RECEIVED.: Mr Crowe: I know a farmer who was . Mr R. C. Cannell : I beg to move:— afraid to apply for the subsidy on beef Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Agricia- . because he had a hill cattle subsidy. ture and Fisheries have submitted their estimate of £20,000 for the purpose of defray- Mr R. C. Cannell: There has been a ing the cost of a scheme to be prePared by misunderstanding. It is due to a mis- the Board and approved by His Excellency, for the provision of .lime and basic slag and interpretation of the old order. We took ground mineral phosphates - to- occupiers of it to Her Majesty's Attorney-General, agricultural land in the Isle of Man for the and his interpretation was different from purpose of improving the fertility Of the soil. what the Board intended. Several far- In the financial year ending 31st March. 1953. mers were precluded from the subsidy, Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- although in our opinion they were en- cellency to give consideration to the same in •framing the Estimates for the year /952-53. titled to it, but we had to comply with (The amount of the Estimate for the year the wording of the order. - It precluded 1951-52 was 2.10,000, but a supplementary vote a rn,an on the lowlands who had high • of £4,300 was passed.) running land and put cattle there for I may say that the Board has considered season grazing, but where a man had a the question of a subsidy for spreading hill sheep flock he was entitled to the lime in accordance with the facility subsidy. .operating in England, but this facility The Speaker: Isn't this intended for has since been withdrawn, and the cattle which are on the high lands all Board is not going to press for that. the time? The Board has decided to amend the Mr R. C. Cannell: Yes, the full rate .Manx scheme, however, by granting the of £2 17s. Gd. is paid for the full period same subsidies as apply under the Agri- of 16 weeks grazing. culture Fertilisers Act, 1952, which has just been placed on the Statute Book The Speaker: Why should they have' by the Imperial Parliament, and to ex- a subsidy for that? tend the existing scheme, which was The resolution was carried. originally a peacetime benefit to keep the land of the .Isle of Man in good heart. I might point out. that this scheme was the result of a Commission MARGINAL LAND DEVELOPMENT— which sat under the chairmanship of RESOLUTION DEFERRED. Deemster Cowley in 1939, when the The following resolution was on the Commission proposed this fertiliser sub- agenda in the name of Mr R. C. Cannell: . sidy scheme. The scheme which-. the Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Agricul- Board has decided to put forward is 50 ture and Fisheries have requested that a sum. per cent, of the cost of lump of £16,000 be provided to defray the cost of ground lime and ground limestone (un- the development and cultivation of marginal burnt) delivered on the farm, and- also land in accordance with a scheme to be ap- proved by His Excellency the Lieutenant- these payments per ton an certain ferti- Governor and Tynwald. in the financial year lisers: Basic slag, 43s.; ground mineral ending 31st •March. 1953. phosphate, 80s.; nitro chalk, 55s.; muriate Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- of: potash, 55s.; superphosphate, 97s.; im_ cellency to give consideration to the same in ported compound manures, 70s.; Litts' framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53: manure, 70s. I would also like to point Mr R.-.C. ..Cannell:- I beg to ask leave but that the subsidy is practically the for this -resolution • to- be 'held over same as in England, and the Board are -• Marginal Land Development—Resolution Deferred.—Lime and Other Fertilisers . _,Scheine—Estimate of £20,000 Received. 426 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 satisfied that if they do not have a sub- Mr R. C. Cannell: I have no exact sidy on nitro chalk and muriate of potash knowledge of the acreage, but I believe farmers will use other manures where it is being taken up quite considerably, there is a" subsidy and which are not and we will be getting the returns dur- so suitable for the purpose. I would like ing June. to point out that in the case of basic .slag The resolution was carried. the price in 1952 is £8 5s., and in 1951 II was E6 2s. 6d. Ground mineral phos- phate in 1-952 is £15 is. 6d. a ton and last year it was £9 8s, 6d, Nitro chalk CALF REARING SUBSIDY— is £17 16s. 9d. and last year it was ESTIMATE OF £15,000 RECEIVED. £14 Bs. Muriate of potash is £24 7s. 3d. Mr R. C. Cannell: I beg to move :— this year compared with £19 18s. last Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Agricul- year. This year's price for superphos- ture and Fisheries have submitted their phate is £17 7s. 6d. and last year the estimate of £15,000 for the purpose of defray- price was £10 Is. 8d. ing the expenses and cost of the Calf Rear- Imported com- ing Subsidy Scheme approved by Tynwald on pound manure, which is patent manure, the 18th February, 1948, in the financial is £23 14s. this year and last year it was year ending 31st March, 1953: £16 Bs. 9d. So that you see that a terri- Resolved.—that Tynwald requests His Ex- fic rise has taken place in the price of cellency to give consideration to the same in framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. manures, and we cannot but agree that (The amount of the Estimate for the year it is upon the fertility of the land and 1951-52 was £20,000.) the use of • a • balanced system of manuring that ultimate food production The amount is for £4 a head on steers depends, and it can be stated, in common and £3 per head on Keifer calves at the with all subsidies, that this particular age of six months, and which are of vote benefits the consumer and the whole suitable breed and 'conformation to public. grow into cattle .for beefing, and thus ensure an adequate peat supply. The Mr Farrant seconded. scheme is in Common with Imperial policy, except that in England it has The resolution was carried. been decided'to abandon the subsidy in respect of heifer calves. The Board takes the view that: this is not ideal policy for the Isle of Man, and considers MIXED CROP SUBSIDY—ESTIMATE that the .heifer shouild be subsidised. OF E11,000 RECEIVED. Emphasis is now being placed in the Mr R. C. Cannell: I beg to move:— Lie of Man on a return to the dual- purpose beast, which will eventually Whereas the Isle of Man Board of Agricul- give a reasonably good supply of milk ture and Fisheries have submitted their estimate of £11,000 for the purpose of paying and produce a reasonable carcase of a subsidy of £9 per acre in respect of the beef, both from the steer calf and the growing of mixed crops and a subsidy of £1 cow after its milk has been finished per acre in respect of the -growing of barley with. The Board has always taken it to be harvested in 1952 to augment supplies of feeding stuffs for livestock in pursuance that the calf rearing. subLidy scheme .s of a scheme to be prepared by the Board of a progressive poiicy.,taken over a num- Agriculture and Fisheries and approved by ber of years, and that any heifers which His Excellency in the financial year ending are retained -. after receiving subsidy 31st March, 1953. will pass on., to the herds concerned Resolved.—that. Tynwald 'requests His Ex- cellency to give consideration to the Same in higher milk' Yields 'with less beats in framing the Estimates for the year. 1952-53. the herd, thus conserving feeding stuffs (The amount of the Estimate for the year and more beef -cattle.: Calves which are /951.52 was £2,500.) sired by the Hereford bull, whether This scheme as fully debated here at heifers or steers, reach the beef market the last Tynwald, and was agreed. because it is uneconomical to keep heifers of a Hereford. cross for milking The Attorney General: I think we purposes. The fact, that these calves would like some information as to what from the Hereford bull are clearly extent it is being taken up. marked by their white head is a deter-

Mixed Crop Subsidy—Estimate of £11,000 Received.—Calf Rearing Subsidy— Estimate of £15,000 Received. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 427 rent to farmers selling heifers of this the cheese ration will be reduced one type for milking purposes, because they ounce, and at the same time the learned know full well that buyers would be re- Attorney-General has flatly told the luctant to accept cows and heifers of a Court that they refuse to reconsider Hereford cross. The amount expended the question of surplus milk supplies for for the year ended 31st March, 1952, manufacture into cheese and butter. was £17,639 4s, made up as follows: 2,479 steers at £4, £9,916; 2,406 heifers The Attorney-General: You can deal at £3, £7,218; inspectors' fees, 2.504 4s. with your own surpluses. Here I might say that the Board took up Mr Kerruish: That is right. We can this question of the inspectors' fees. We deal with our own surpluses. The Gov- have a scheme in mind which we think ernment are not concerned in getting will save a large amount of the inspec- supplies for the public. That is the true tors' fees. answer to Mr Teare's question. So if Mr Kerruish: I beg to second that, the Manx farmer was able to produce more beef, he would be in the same and point out to the Court that this is position. another incentive to beef production. I would like to take this opportunity to Mr R. C. Cannel!: There is nothing to help to eradicate from the minds of hon. reply to. What the vice-chairman of the members of the Court the remarks of Board has said about surplus eggs, milk the hon. member of the Council (Mr and potatoes is correct, and I would Teare), yesterday, on the inability of like to point out that amongst the the Manx farmers to provide more good emergency services there was a sum set meat for the Island's requirements. I down of 25,000 for the year ending would point out to the hon. member of 31st March, 1952. I am afraid that for the Council that, since the cessation of next year at least double that sum will hostilities the farmers produced a sur- be required for potatoes in the Isle of plus of potatoes, a surplus of eggs, and Man. a surplus of milk, and I think the hon. The resolution was carried. member of the Council himself will know the reason why they failed to Tynwald adjourned and resumed at continue to produce these. When the 2-30 p.m. first surplus of potatoes was produced, the hon. member of the Council, Mr Teare, was one of the first to say, "Cut their prices," although they were rigidly controlled at a reasonable level. When we had a surplus of eggs the Douglas, Thursday, April 10, 1952. Board realised that the position could not be maintained unless the price was The Keys met for a few moments increased, but when we asked the Ex- when the Court adjourned for lunch. ecutive for an increase they flatly re- The Speaker: I have rather an im- 'fused; yet, a year later, hon. members portant meeting this afternoon, and I of the Executive get up in this Court am afraid I shall not be present when and ask why are the Board of Agricul- the Court resumes at 2-30 p.m. I shall ture not doing something to maintain get in later in the afternoon, if that is production. The very men who turned possible. In the meantime I shall be down the Board's proposal. We pro- glad. if members will appoint a Deputy duced a surplus of milk, but they are Speaker to act in my absence. not content with a surplus because in the next week or two they will come Mr H. K. Corlett (member for Glen- to the Court and probably tell us that faba) was appointed Deputy Speaker.

Calf Rearing Subsidy—Estimate of £.15,000 Received. REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT.

Douglas, Thursday, April 10, 1952.

ESTIMATES OF HIGHWAY AND If members have any desire for me to TRANSPORT BOARD RECEIVED. go into figures, I have them here and will give details. I beg to move the Mr Crowe: I beg to move the follow- resolution. ing resolution standing in my name:— Mr Corkhill seconded. Whereas the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board has submitted its estimates Mr Kerruish: I beg to support the of expenditure, and with respect thereto vote, and I am pleased to note that it has made application for grants totalling has not been reduced, because last year £84,540. made up as follows, for the purpose 1 think it was reduced beyond the point of carrying out approved policy in the of a safety margin for providing some financial year ending 31st March, 1953. winter work. For many years we have Maintenance of Class 1 Scheduled Roads 453,423 depended upon the Highway Board to Maintenance of Class 2 Scheduled provide a certain amount of work for Roads 9,612 our unemployed, and last year the Maintenance of Class 3 Scheduled Board did not reckon to provide this Roads 5,305 work, which, as it turned out, was a Contribution of cost of reconstruc- tion of roads and installation of sur- mistake. At the same time, I was face water drainage—Garden City rather disappointed that the Highway and Districts 1,200 Board did not employ more men from Provisional allowance for possible the Laxey area last year. There were, Private Street Works 3,000 of course, no major schemes in that Land Drainage Act 12,000 area, but I do hope this year, now that £84,540 there is a petition from the residents .6f Baldrine to widen the road from the Resolved.—that Tynwald receives the esti- Baldrine School up to the adjoining mate of such expenditure and requests His farms, that there will be a scheme for Excellency to give consideration to the same that particular area, even if it means in framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. coming to this Court for an extra vote (The amount of the Estimate for the year 1951-52 was £73,025, but a supplementary vote to pay for it, and that it will be uSed of £1.500 for Land Drainage was passed.) as a means of employment for a number of men from the Laxey area who are, I have a lot of figures here, but I do of necessity, unemployed in the winter not know whether the Court wants me months. to deal with them. (Several members: Mr Crellin: I look upon this vote some- "No.") I think the work of the High- what differently from the hon. member way Board is pretty well known, for Garff, Mr Kerruish. Apparently, although it is not always very obvious, from the details of expenditure sub- and I would like to suggest to members mitted by the Highway Board, we seem if they will leave the main roads occa- to be getting back. to the old principle sionally and travel along the second of providing unemployment schemes. and third-class roads, I think they will •When the Court passed the National find a lot of work has been done in the Insurance scheme, I think we under- last two or three years, and I would stood that if we passed the scheme, the also like, Your Excellency, to state that necessity for providing work in the roughly 57 per cent, of our money is winter would more or less disappear.. I spent in wages. We have employed 297 see here before me 10 schemes—all men, and, as I have just said, 57 per widening schemes—and I, do not con- cent. of the money is paid them in wages. gratulate the Highway Board on widen-

Estimates of Highway and Transport Board Received. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 429

ing corners in all parts of the Island.• Mr Crellin: But is it to the best ad- There is the Avondale Road widening vantage, your Excellency? at Onchan, for which I see 16 tons of Mr Crowe: Regarding several of the steel are needed. PerSonally, I think, places mentioned by the hon. member of with the scarcity of steel to-day, better the Council, Mr Crellin,.our idea was to use could have been found for such look for what we considered the most metal than widening a corner. Then there is the Ballarneanagh Corner at , necessary work when we were asked to Michael. I am afraid I do not know take on further men, and our main roads where that is. did not deed a lot of attention. Now, as regards the widening at Mount Murray, Mr Crowe: It is popularly known as it would have been completed—the Handley's Corner, and the Board have learned Attorney-general will know been endeavouring to negotiate with the this—but we have made attempt after owners of the land, and the owner of attempt to agree with the owners of the an old house there, for some time, but land there, and it has been impossible up to now it has been quite impossible to make any headway, and the widening to come to any agreeement. However, at the other corners have been decided we are still trying. upon after due consideration. Mr Creilin: Then the negotiations are Taggart: I would like to crave the not complete? I take it, therefore, this Work will not take place this year. indulgence of the Court if I may, your Then there is the Cronkbreck Corner at Excellency, because I wish to ask a ques- the Lhen. I cannot see there is any tion, and as this vote contains certain necessity for the widening of that provision for the unemployed, I was corner, It is not a dangerous corner, wondering if an opportunity could be and it has been used for many years afforded to the Court to learn what pro- Without mishap. Then there is West vision will be made in respect of possible Kimrneragh and Gorse Lea-1 do not unemployment. know anything about either of them. Mr McFee: I am going to support this Next we come to' the corner at Mount resolution. We in the Isle of Man, in Murray. I would like to know what the winter months, have carried the negotiations are going on there. I intolerable burden of between 600 and think the widening of Church Road,. Onchan, is unnecessary, and the widen- 800 workless men. When appeals were ing at the road in Rushen. The Groudle made to employ these unfortunate back road widening it apparently taking people, did private enterprise do any- place, and the widening at Willaston is thing to solve the problem? No. It was complete, and from now on I think we up to a Government board, and that ought to be very careful what we under- Government board was the Highway take in the way of widening corners: I Board They have tackled the problem take it that the hon. member, Mr Crowe, of unemployment with more zeal and will be able to tell us when these various determination than any other Board in widening schemes are to take place, and the Isle of Man. With regard to unem- the cost, but the approximate cost is ap- ployment, I would remind the hon. mem- parently—excluding the Avondale Road 'ber for Garff, Mr Kerruish, that there is and Willaston, and the Groudle Back such a thing as equal distribution of em- Road—£15,700. ployment, and we have made an attempt on the Highway Board, after long and Mr Corkhill: It is only reasonable to thoughtful consideration, to meet the say that in November or December pres- needs of districts in the Isle of Man, and sure was brought to bear on the High- not one district in particular. The hon. way Board to find work for some of the member of the Council, Mr Crellin, has unemployed at that date, and it Was then criticised the resolution as being nothing that a lot of work was brought on. It is less than a resolution for providing work no use having men without schemes for the unemployed. I would remind which will utilise their work to the best the hon. member that at one time, not advantage. (Hear, hear.) very far distant, the permanent estab-

Estimates of Highway and Transport Board Received. , 430 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952

lishment of the Highway Board was 260 to be done to these roads, and as we men, and to-day the permanent estab- cater for large numbers of visitors, and lishment is only 170. With regard to the encourage those visitors to take motor widening projects, I would remind the and charabanc tours round various parts Court that we are to-day faced with the of the Island, we have a duty to see to it problem of providing adequate road and that the roads are kept in good condi- transport facilities for 8ft.-wide buses. tion and improved here and there. And How are they going to get round the it must not be forgotten that although, narrow corners of our roads, unless we in my estimation, rail traffic is finished, are prepared to widen certain of them? the traffic on the roads will go on in- One, I think, is complementary to the creasing, and therefore the policy of the other, and I have much pleasure in sup- Highway Board must always be to im- porting the resolution which has been prove the roads, and many of the roads moved by the hon. member for Michael, are still too narrow I did wonder, as a Mr Crowe. member of the Highway Board, as I listened to some of the remarks, whether Mr Nivison: Reference has been made it was to be the wish of the Court that by the hon. member of the Council, Mr the Board should curtail its policy, which Crellin, to the use of steel for widening has been designed at road improvement the corner at Avondale Road, and I generally throughout the Isle of Man. would like to assure him that that was not the wish of the Highway Board. It Mr Teare: I am going to support this was insisted upon by the owners of the vote as far as it concerns scheduled land, who were making a gift of the land roads, class 1, 2, and 3. They have to be in order to carry out the widening, and improved, and it can only be done in the they insisted on a low stone wall with winter months. -As regards the corner steel fence being fitted. widening, I think the Court should have more information as to the amount to The Attorney-General: At the cost of be spent on each corner. I do want to the . enlighten the hon. member of the Coun- cil, Mr Crellin, however, who said that Mr Nivison: The learned Attorney- now we have Unemployment Insurance, General will know better than I that this he was under the impression that we was a gift. It was most necessary that could stop winter work. I can assure we should do the widening, and when it the hon. member, on the many Commis- was being done, the Highway Board sions upon which I sat with His Honour thought that they might as well do it Deernster Cowley, it was never men- properly. Whilst many of us would tioned that the coming in of Unemploy- have preferred that some other material, ment Insurance would mean there would rather than steel, should have been used, be no necessity for winter work; in fact, it has to be remembered that the owners it was plainly stated that it must not be of the land used that land for grazing thought that the adoption of such Insur- horses, and it was essential for them to ance would obviate the necessity for have a wall of a fair height and a rail, winter work, but I do agree that such and it was the owners, as I have said, work should have real merit, and not who insisted on steel being used. As re- be a sort of poor relief scheme. (Hear, gards the general policy of the Highway hear). I think, perhaps, it would be Board, I hope the Court will not give the better to improve our third class roads impression to that Board that all they rather than widen corners, but I intend are required to do is to maintain the to support the vote so far as class 1, 2, existing roads and keep them .clean and 3 roads are concerned, and I think Most of the roads in this Island were the question of corner widening might never designed at all. They came into be given further consideration. being because they were used as tracks, Deemster Cowley: As chairman of the and subseqquently these tracks, with the Unemployment Insurance Commission, I aid of rubble and metal, eventually be- think I ought to make it quite clear what came roads. According to modern the position really is. It is perfectly traffic requirements much still remains true that we were reluctantly forced to

Estimates of Highway and Transport Board Received.

TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 431

adopt Unemployment Insurance, but we towards the end of the year, for some made it perfectly clear it was not in- money for the work that is scheduled. tended to obviate the desirability of Mr Bolton: .Surely it is a matter for tarrying out public works of national estimating by any Board, what they ex- importance during the winter months. pect to have spent, and what they expect We were certainly against; shall I say, to receive. If they are wrong, they are "digging holes and filling them up wrong, and they come with a supple- again" (Hear, hear), and we were mentary estimate. against some of the widening we have seen in the last few years. Many of The Attorney-General: I think you these were, to my mind, entirely un- might tell us • about Grove Mount, Ram- necessary, but we were perfectly pre- sey. From time to time you sell certain pared for the fact, and said so, that the property, and you have assets from the obligation to adopt Unemployment In- Douglas Head Marine Drive. Where is surance did not prejudice the attitude of that in your receipts? But there are the Government in providing, as far as matters which we had better not discuss possible, public work of national import- yet in this Court, because we are still in ance, and that it should be done at a the process of negotiating. time when we have unemployment in the Mr Crowe: I • have any amount of Island, and it is with a combination of figures here, which I am prepared to these two things that I hope we will face read. But the idea is to have something up to in the unemployment situation for the unexpected. This past year, to-day. work outside the estimates was done in Mr Bolton: I see that the Board is Ballacrenner widening; widening at estimating for a balance in the bank at Spittairs, Injebreck road; Ballaghennie the end of 1952 of £4,290. Is this in- •road, Bride; Beinn-y-Phot road (storm cluded in the estimate for contingencies? water damage) Crossack widening; Be- It is certainly a very unusual procedure goade road widening; widening at Avon- to include such an item unless it is speci- dale Road, Onehan; widening at Station fically stated why it has, been done, but Road, Crosby; and Aust widening. I the way it appears on the agenda is very hope some members have gone to see different from the way it is presented in these roads since they were widened, the circulated sheets. In the sheets you and I am quite sure that they will see will find that the estimated expenditure that the Boa-1-d was justified. Some of is going to be £72,540, and that they it was done, not because we wanted to expect to have £4,290 in the bank at the widen; it 'was done at the request of the end of the year. It seems to me rather Races Committee. But it is a big im- a peculiar way of preparing an estimate, provement, and I would like members and it looks to me as if Tynwald could to see it. We met His Excellency, to be asked for the grant less this £4,290, • find out what jobs we might be allowed but perhaps the hon. member in charge to do with the extra men we had taken of the resolution can explain the pecu- on. We have at present eighty tempo- liarity? Perhaps it is a hidden reserve. rary employees. It is not easy, having I do not know. hundreds of men, unless they are going The Attorney-General: Or a working to be directed to labour. You might balance? just as well give them money and send then.' home. Mr Bolton: Still, I do not think it is one we should estimate for. Mr Crellin: Grove Mount and some I other places are far more important than Mr Nivison: On the other hand, if you some of these widenings. look at our estimates, you will find pro- visional allowance for possible street Mr Crowe: The Surveyor-General and works, and we have'to put into our esti- the northern district surveyor met the mates what we expect to get from Ramsey Commissioners some weeks ago apportionments from the street works on the ground. In answer to the hon. which have gone on. We have to make member for Garff, Mr Kerruish, I would allowance for some of that money com- like to say that we had a petition from ing in, otherwise we should be coming, Baldrine residents, and I can assure him

Estimates of Highway and Transport Board Received. 432 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 that if there is any possibility of doing defence services, which is a new tem- the work, we shall do it. We have been porary Post, but less the salary of an on the road and know that it is very, assistant clerk on the establishment, very narrow, and quite a few houses have which has not been filled since the last been built there, others are being built, holder of the post was transferred to and some are still to come. another department. In regard to the The Attorney-General: What about the extermination of rats, last year the assets of the Douglas Head Marine estimate was E500, and we are now ask- Drive? Where does that money go? Is ing for £200. The estimate for bacterio- it in ordinary receipts or capital re- logical examinations, £350, shows an ceipts? increase of £100. It is anticipated that more samples of milk will be obtained Mr Crowe: Quite a lot of money came for analyses next year than have been from different sources to the Highway obtained during the present year, .be- Board; I may be chairman of the Board, cause, with the easing of building con- but I don't know all the particulars. But trols, the inspectors will have more as for the money from the cottages, it is time to devote to their normal duties. very safe, and will be well used. I have mentioned the estimate for the (Laughter.) extermination of rats. The number of rats' tails and female carcases delivered The resolution was carried. to receivers by local authorities' under the 1938 Act has progressively de- creased since the Board- appointed a LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD rodent destruction officer. The expendi- ESTIMATES RECEIVED, ture under the heading of "Water Sup- ply Acts—Annual Deficiency Payments,' Mr Crellin: I beg to move:— refers to the Government contributions Whereas the Isle of Man Local Govern- made to the Douglas Corporation in ment Board has submitted its estimates of respect of water extensions to Garwick, expenditure, made up as follows, totalling Upper Onchan and Port Soderick. Last £26,995, for the purpose of carrying out ap- proved policy in the financial year ending year the estimate was for £8,000, cover- 31st March, 1953: ing two years; now it is £3,800. These Administration (Salaries, etc.) £14,645 contributions are, arrived at by calcu- Bacteriological Examinations 350 lating 10 per cent, of the capital cost of Extermination. of Rats 200 the scheme and deducting therefrom all Water Supply Acts 3,800 the rates and water charges. The de- Local Government (Fire Services Act) 3,000 ficiency is met by the Government over Fire Escapes Act, 1950 (Loans) 5,000 a period of 30 years in the case of Gar wick, and 20 years in the case of the £26,995 remaining two extension schemes. Due Resolved.—that Tynwald requests His Ex- to the late arrival of the claim for the cellency to consider the sane when framing year ended the 31st March, 1950, this the Estimates for the year 1952-53. claim was not paid until the present (The amount of the .Estimate covering the year,t herefore there were two annual above items for the year 1951-52 was £25,410, payments in the one financial year. in but included . provision for two years' pay- ments in respect of the Water Supply Acts.) the case of Garwick, it has been found that, since the revaluation, the water The Local Government Board's esti- rates in this area have been less than mates as they left the Board are in a in previous years, even although a large rather different form from that in number of new houses have been which they appear on the agenda. First erected. The water rates collected in of all, salaries are down at £10,745, 1951-52 were approximately -E50 less compared with £10,650 last year, This than in 1950-51, which means that the slight increase is due firstly to normal Government contribution has been in scale increases of certain members of creased by this sum. Under the West the staff, and secondly to the addition BaldwinWater Act, 1899, it is provided of the wages of a maintenance officer that the rate in areas outside the and storekeeper for fire and civil borough of Douglas shall be one third

Local Government Board Estimates Received. TYNWALD COUET, APRIL 10, 1952 493

greater than the rate in the Borough. nothing to add; I could give all the Under the old valuation the water rate details,, of what the rat catcher has in Douglas was 2s in the £, and in the done and what the inspectors have done, outside areas 2s 8d in the Z. Under the but no other chairman has done .it in new valuation the water rate in Dou- this sitting, and I think the time could glas has been reduced to is in the £, be better spent. and in the outside areas is 4d in the Z, and this has caused the reduction Mr Bolton: I want to have the ground the amount of rates collected. It • ap- cleared up on this question of Civil De- pears unreasonable that ratepayers fence. I think it should be stated that should benefit at the expense of the the Legislature passed an Act under Government from the new valuation, which the appointment was made of but this position must remain unless the Chief Fire Staff Officer, who is in the West Baldwin Act is amended. In the employ of the Local Government. regard to the Fire Services Act, 1950, Board. Premises were obtained which we estimate for £3,090, the same as last would be used jointly by this officer and year. This is a statutory-fixed contribu. the Civil Defence officers of the Island. tion by the Government, which is paid When we came to appoint staff, we knew each year into the fire fund created that we should want a" storekeeper and under th e Act and is applied, together a typist, and it was agreed that the with the product of a 2d rate in certain Civil Defence Committee should pro- areas, towards the expenditure of the vide a typist for both offices, and the fire authorities. Under the Fire Escape Local Government Board should provide Act, we estimated last year for loans a storekeeper for both offices. So, the totalling Ramo, and now we estimate charge is one against the fire service, £5,000. Owners of buildings defined in and has nothing to do with Civil De- the Act, namely buildings over a cer- fence. I want it to be quite clear that tain height from the ground and used we are not hiding anything in- the for certain specified purposes, such as estimate for Civil Defence, which will boarding-houses, hotels, etc., can re- be coming later. (Laughter.) . ceive Government assistance by way of Mr Farrant: I should like to ask the loan at 3 per cent, to meet the cost of hon. member in charge of this resolu- the provision of outside fire escapes. A tion whether he can inform Tynwald on token sum of £1,000 was estimated last the progress which the Ramsey Com- year, but not used, as regulations under missioners have made, if any, regard- the Act had not been prepared. These ing the provision of a new mortuary regulations have now been prepared and in that town. I have on more than one have been sent to local authorities for occasion drawn the attention of the Court their observations before final approval to tht appalling conditions which pre- by the Board and Tynwald, and it is vail at present. Only a few weeks ago hoped they will be put into operation a woman died in very distressing later in the year. The Chief Fire Staff circumstances, and her body was taken Officer is going round on the local auth- to the mortuary through a gentlemen's orities pointing out to each the major convenience. There it lay until burial. fequirements regarding fire, escapes The position is a downright disgrace, ana the likely cost. We had an inquiry, and, nothing seems to get done, and I and the position was becoming chaotic, consider it to be a great reflection upon and we thought it best that the Fire the Ramsey Commissioners. Staff Officer should make personal visits and give explanations. In regard tn Deemster Cowley: The Ramsey Com- motor car expenses, £.1,500 as compared misiioners approached His Excellency with £390, the additional sum has lieen for a grant to build a mortuary. The estimated to meet the cost of replace- application was referred to the Public ments and increased costs of repairs Works Commission, and we turned it and maintenance. One very old car doW,n. I hope we shall continue to turn which. the Board took over from the it down. This is a. matter for the Ram- now defunct Development Board has sey Commissioners, and the commis- now become a liability and must be _ sioners of the surrounding parishes. To replaced as early as possible. I have expect the Government to provide a

Local Government Board Estimates Received. 434 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952

mortuary for the town of Ramsey is Mr Crellin (rep:ying). It is perfectly going a little further than their usually true that a person who supplies petrol ample demands. to a fire brigade cannot be a member Mr Kelly: We must remember that of the brigade. An arrangement has the country districts will not co-operate been made, though it is not strictly with Ramsey. We must remember that legal, that in a case of emergency—say, 50 per cent. of the bodies placed in an outbreak in the middle of the night the Mortuary during the past 10 years —petrol may be purchased from a mem- came from the sea and the coun- ber. But the Act covers a wide ground, try, they didn't all come from Ram- and deals with a big question of prie,-. ciple. Normally, they must get their sey. (Laughter.) We therefore asked petrol elsewhere. We have threshed the Government to make a contri- out this subject many times, and that bution, and asked the Government is the position. In answer to the hon. to contact the other local authorities; member for Middle, Mr Nivison, I would but no headway has been made. We say that the districts referred to are already have plans to erect a building, districts which come in under the Act and a site, which is behind the Town of 1924—Port Soclerick, Garwick, an ex- Hall in Ramsey. tension to embrace Ballamean'agh farm. Mr Nivison: I observe that £3,000 is Otherwise, districts in the West Bald- asked for under the Water Supply Act. win Reservoir area are receiving water The chairman of the Board may have from Douglas, and the places of which given the impression that all the people the hon. member speaks are within the who are in the area of West Baldwin normal Douglas area. On the question Reservoir, living outside the Douglas of the mortuary at Ramsey, there is no area, are receiving free water supply. reason at all why the Ramsey Commis- People in the outside area have in the sioners cannot get on with the work, past- paid a rate of 2s 8d in the 2,, as and wait for any subsequent assistance compared with 2s in the in Douglas, they may get. The total cost is only and are now paying is 4d as compared £1,100—under the old valuation, the with is Does what the chairman said product of a halfpenny rate, and of apply only to new installations in out- something like a farthing rate under of-the-way places? the new. We suggested a resolution to the effect that the six Northern parishes Mr Kerruish: There is one point which should be asked to contribute each I would like to raise on the item for per year. That should be very reason- fire services. I believe that under some able, and should suit everybody. I think new procedure small brigades such as the commissioners have been notified of that in Laxey—of which all the trades- this. Anyhow, the cost is so small that men in the village are members—are the Ramsey Commissioners could im- now unable to purchase equipment, mediately get on. petrol, in the village. The suppliers in Laxey cannot trade with the brigade, Deemster Cowley: What about a because they are members of it. Conse- contribution from Father Neptune? quently, they have to go to Douglas for (Laughter.) a few gallons of petrol in order to main- The resolution was carried. tain the fire engine. This seems a rather crazy position, and I would like an as- surance from the chairman of the Board LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD.— that if that is in the Act, the Act will ESTIMATES FOR HOUSING AND be amended; if it is not in the Act, the DRAINAGE RECEIVED. matter will be put right. 11ar Crellin: I beg to move:— The Attorney-General: You were a Whereas the Isle of Man Local Govern- member of the House of Keys which ment Board has submitted its estimates • of passed the Act. expenditure, made up as follows, totalling £366,980, for the maintenance and erection of Mr Kerruish: Well, we all make housing accommodation and the cost of mistakes, and nobody makes more than drainage schemes in th financial year ending you. 31st March. 1953:

Local Government Board—Estimates for Housing and Drainage Received. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 435

(a) Maintenance— and I will give them to the Court later. (i) Temporary Housing Maintenance usually covers repairs, in- Schemes £8,900 (ii) Permanent Housing surance, and rent collection, but in the Schemes 3,480 actual expenditure quoted aboye, reqt £12,380 collection has not been included: Cer- (h) Erection of Permanent Houses by tain items of maintenance expenditure Local Government Board 205.000 which apply to both permanent and (c) Scheme for the Encouragement of temporary housing schemes at Balla- Building by Private Enterprise (Grants and Loans) 57,600 salla and Castletown, which it has not (d) Erection of Houses by Local been possible to apportion, have been Authorities— of temporary houses. To adjust this, (1)- Capitalised deficiency it has been decided to debit the full grants 45,000 amount of such items against the per- (ii) Annual deficiency grants 5,000 manent housing maintenance as from 50,000 1st April, 1952. The sale of surplus Rural Housing Act (Grants and (e) materiala frem demolished Nissen huts Loans) • 15,000 at Ballasalla and Castletown is bringing (1) Drainage Schemes 27,000 in certain revenue. For capital ex- £366.980 penditure on housing schemes in the areas of non-functioning local auth- Resolved.—that Tynwald requests His Ex- orities, last year we estimated £240,000 cellency to consider the same in framing the and spent £178,998. This year we esti- Estimates for the year 1952-53. mate £205,000. This substantial reduc- I am going to start with figures, because tion is estimated because the two large I want to get in as many facts as pos- housing schemes at Bellasalla and sible. The estimated expenditure last Castletown are nearing completion. year was £.506.440, and the amount Schemes in the rural areas, including actually spent was £432,693, a saving of the proposed scheme for tied cottages £73,747. Now we ask for £366,980. For for farm workers, will however pro- the maintenance of temporary houses ceed, and as the peak appears to have we estimate £8,900, as compared with been reached with respect to private last year's estimate of £7,200 and actual building, it is anticipated that progress expenditure of £7,419. The estimated on these smaller schemes will acceler- increase is due firstly to increased ate. A borrowing of £235,000 on the wages of the maintenance staff, and Manx National Insurance reserve fund . secondly to the fact that the mainten- was raised last year to meet the cost ance of the Nissen huts at Ballasalla of houses erected by the Board, and the and Castletown is proving very costly. balance of this borrowing will be carried For the maintenance of permanent forward to next year. It must be houses, the figure has been arrived at emphasised that the figures now under by calculating the number of houses discussion are estimates only, and that estimated to be completed and multiply- the unexpired balances in the votes for ing this number by £12, which is the last year will be taken into account figure accepted by Tynwald as the when further votes come before Tyn- annual maintenance charge per house Wald at the time of the Budget. Rentals per year. It is a rather complicated from all houses in the Board's schemes, calculation and I don't quite under- both temporary and permanent, bring stand it myself; but we have agreed in over £15,000 per year. For capital- to it. (Laughter.) The Board in their ised grants and annual deficiency pay- last year's estimates were rather ,op- ments in respect of housing schemes timistic regarding the number of houses carried out by the local authorities, last which would be completed, but the year we estimated £115,000 and spent figure has been adjusted in these £107,740; this year we estimate £50,000. estimates. Obviously, budgetting in The reduction is due to the fact that the in February, we hadn't got all the schemes financed by way of capitalised figures which .we now possess; but when grant are either completed or nearing His Excellency frames his. Budget, I completion. All schemes approved since will be supplied with the actual figures June, 1950, are financed under the new charged in full against the maintenance arrangements ef annual deficiency pay-

LOW Government Board—Estimates for Housing and Drainage Received. 436 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 rnents over a period of 60 years; interest-free loans repayable to the Gov- therefore the Government's annual pay- ernment over twenty-five years. There ments will be much 'less than formerly. is also the estimate of £15,000 for grants As rents of G-ovemment-subsidised and loans under the rural housing houses are only approximately one- scheme. It is the same estimate as last third of the economic rent, the Board year; but last year we actually spent considers that rents will have to be in- £22,912. Over 50 per cent, of this ex- creased, so as to ease the burden on taxpayers and ratepayers. Consider- penditure represents loans bearing in- ation is- now being given to this sub- terest at 3 per cent. which are repay- ject, but it is highly technical. We had able within varying periods up to a Mr Costain, the Borough Treasurer of maximum period of forty years. Then Douglas, before our housing committee for drainage schemes, last year we esti- of the Board last Wednesday, for about mated £.52,000 and spent £54,684; this, an hour. But it is a highly technical year we estimate £27,000. Most of the job to get a basis upon which to arrange drainage schemes in the rural areas are the rents. The Board have approved under way, and expenditure under this rent proposals from Douglas, Ramsey, head will in the future be very small. and Onc..-han, but it is all subject to any- There are two small schemes which it thing we may have to say later. In the is hoped to start later in the year. One tied-house scheme for farm viorkers, the is at Bride, and the other is at Seaton. rent proposed is El per week, exclusive In both these areas the Board have had of rates, for a three-bedroomed house. to provide facilities for houses erected Final approval of the scheme is expected by them, and as there are fourteen or to be given at our next meeting, but fifteen other houses in the immediate roughly, the scheme is this: We expect, neighbourhood, we have made our drain- on. land where there is no house for the age system sufficiently large. Since the farm worker, that the land for the money required for the work covered house will be given to us., We will by this resolution is £366,980, if we take erect the house and will maintain the off the £73,747 saved this year, which outside, and the farmer or the tenant we are proposing shall be re-voted, the will do the internal decoration, and at- actual money required from this year's tend to the hedges. It may seem to revenue will be £293,233, which is less •sOme hon. members that in erecting the than last year's estimate by £213,207. house and asking for £1, whereas the There is not much doubt that every farmer may only get 16s, we 'are asking member of the Court will see that the too much. But the Court must remem- demand and the supply of houses are ber that it is a terrific benefit to a approaching one another. In proof of farmer to have houses erected - on the this, the Board invited tenders for a land, and thus be enabled to obtain two-bedroomed house at Ballasalla to workers. The farmer will get pre- house the district nurse, and nine firms sumably 15s or 16s, and he may have tendered for it, including some of the to provide 5s. Yet the owner of the• biggest firms on the Island. I got the next farm may have provided a house cost of the house this afternoon, and himself, and 'may be bearing 'the whole including a garage and consulting room; cost. Some of these houses, being , it is £2,645. It is a very good job erected in awkward plzces, involving indeed. We have our new design for long haulage of materials and so forth, houses, at Arbory, and we have cut out will be more expensive than houses all 'the "frills." We reckon to be able built in more favourable conditions. In to build a three-bedroomed house for grants and loans under the private- £1,982, and a two-bedroomed house for enterprise housing scheme, £72,000 was £1,676. So, in spite of all the increases estimated last year, and £60,616. was in cost, we are doing our best in every spent; this year we estimate £57,600. way to keep the cost of housing down. Whilst the number of applications We are really approximating to costs in under this scheme shows signs of England. decreasing, there are still about a hun- dred houses in course of erection. Two- The Attorney-General : I beg to second thirds of this expenditure represents the resolution, and reserve my remarks.

Local Government Board—Estimates for Housing and Drainage Received. TYNWALD COURT, At_3111t 10, 1952. 437

Mr Bolton: Could we have the pro- or fiats in respect of which building gress figures? • licences were issued during the period Mr Crellin: Perhaps, Your Excellency,' from 1st May, 1945, to 31st December, as hon. members may like some infor- 1951, was 1,307. The number of houses mation on housing progress, I could give and flats completed during the year was 269. The total number of houses and some details prepared up . to the 31st fiats completed between May, 1945, and of December, 1951, and deal with the December, 1951, was 1,143; there are 146 matter more fully in the June Tynwald. houses in course of erection, and 18 for Under the housing schemes of function- which building licences have been ing local authorities there was a total applied for but have not yet been of 821. houses, 262 were completed dur- granted. With regard to the Govern- ing the last Year, and the total number ment assisted private enterprise scheme, completed up to the 31st of December, the number of apiilications during the 1951, Was 602, while the number esti- year ended 31st December, 1951, was mated to be completed between. the 1st 100, making a total of 687 applications of 'January and the 30th of June, 1952, lodged, of which 535 were approved, 84 is 129. Other houses in further schemes refused, and 68 withdrawn or cancelled. in course of preparation or contemplated The number of houses not yet started by functioning local authorities total was 62, the number in course of erec- 256. There are 371 houses in the scheme tion 95, and the number completed up for houses erected by the Isle of Man to December last was 378. With regard Local Government Board in the areas to rural housing, the number of appli- of non-functioning housing local autho- cations lodged during the year was 62, rities, of which 62 were completed making a total of 199 since the com- during the year ended 31st Decem- mencement of the scheme, of which 168 ber, 1951, a total of 246 completed have been approved, 18 refused, and 13 up to the end of the year, and . withdrawn or abandoned. •There have 51 more estimated to be completed been grants approved of £38,089, loans by Jane • 30th, 1952. There are 98 approved of 463,365, making a total more houses in further schemes in the approved expenditure of E101,454. The course of preparation or contemplated approved applications relate to 121 farm by the Board. The houses erected or in houses and 62 rural cottages; 15 of the course of erection or proposed by other applications each relate to more than Government departments and Boards of one dwelling, hence the difference in the Tynwald total 32, of which two were number of approved applications, which completed during the year ended 31st was 168, and the, number of dwellings December, 1951, and 24 completed by for which Government assistance has the end of the year, and eight are esti- been granted for the repair and improve.. mated to be completed by the end of ment, which was 183. The summary June. We have 334 temporary houses of the permanent houses completed dur- in schemes operated by the Board, of ing the five years' period ended 31st which 101 Nissen huts were demolished. December, 1951, shows that 83 houses and 233 are still occupied. Of the 2,343 were completed in 1947, 342 in 1948, 490 people on functioning local authorities' in 1949, 505 in 1950, 595 in 1951, making waiting lists on Aine 30th, 1951, the a total of 2,015 for the Island. number was reduced to 2,068 at the end of the year, but after the local autho- Mr Teare: I would like to say that rities have gone through their lists they we appreciate the Local Government find the number can be reduced, and of Board's efforts in building houses, especi- Rarnsey's 380, which were reduced to ally , in rural areas, because by that 300 at-the end of the year, only 120 were means I hope that we shall be able to considered genuine. Peel had .170 cases provide all the houses that are required, and found that only 80 were justified. and give the tenants the amenities of With regard to private enterprise hous- town life, and make them more Comfort- ing the number of new houses or flats. able. But I am becoming a little doubt- in respect of which building licences ful about the development at Janet's have been issued during the year was' Corner and Ballasalla, and I am becom- 308, And the total number of new houses ing more than ever convinced that too

Local Government Board—Estimates for Housing and Drainage Received.

438 TyNWALp- COLTR 1.:APB11, 10,_ 1952 .

much development is taking_ place. on factor is the availability of money. Meal estates. In the laSt -of. the Cor- ; There are plenty of materials and poration houses' we have been able to labobur but money is short. It has take quite a number' of people from been said that if every local autho- Janet's Corner and Ballasalla, 'but we rity would- increase its interest rates are being persistently- -approached by they would have no difficulty in obtain- tenants at both places for houses in ing the money they 'require. I suggest Douglas, The reason they come is that that the Government should assist in the avenues of employment in these' fixing the rate at which money should areas are becoming less 'and less avail- be borrowed for local authorities' hous- able; and the people are forced to come ing, and, if necessary, assist in the bor- to Douglas to find employment, and a rowing. I understand that this policy further difficulty arises as they have to has been adopted in England with satis- pay a substantial bus fare in addition to factory results, and there is a pool from their rent. I am informed that last week which • 1661 authorities may draw for tenders were invited for the demolition public -Works. There seems to be d'ifeel- of the pavilion at Janet's Corner. ingand many people subscribe to the •The. Attorney-General: That is not idea that the greater interest that so. money should yield, the better for them. Mr, Teare: I am glad to hear that, The Speaker: On a point of order, We but' I. want- to' emphasise that there will are' discussing the Local Government be a difficulty' in the near future, be- Board's' housing scheme, and not the cause the work will riot be available . in local -authorities' schemes. "the •district. - •. Mr Nivison: That is not -a point of ." Mr Nivisoh:i The hon. member of the order. May I draw attention to' the fact .Council, Mr Teare; has made reference that we are discussing item 29, and I to the fact' that the -gap between the am referring to sub-section (d) (i) and ;demand and • the. supply Of houses is (ii), the capitalised deficiency grants, %greatly:..narrowing. - That is true, .especi- and annual deficiency grants? with regard to ithoge people who • were able to build the houses for them- The, Speaker: That is not in accord- .sehres. But the gap between, the demand ance with the resolution before the and the supply of houses to 'let is still Court. rvery wide. My own opinion is that the Mr Nivison: It is a subject of national - Government should assist in narrowing importance. Local authorities have to the gap. We have changes in the finan- berrow the whole of the money. It cial system which have added- to local might interest the Court to know that 'authorities difficulties in the' last two there . are some local authorities who, -years: Previously the :Government capi- ha0,ing. -a lot of short term loans, and talised the deficiency and paid in a lump ith.- the increasing cost of money; are sum, which 'meant rthat4the local autho- • Perhaps tempted to advertise at an id- 1Vities only had toliorrow about half the :di-eased rate of interest, but are afraid loapital they .required: for their housing ,ck'd.q *5, lest their short term borrowing schemes. Now, .underthe revised system,', -shrould - be foreclosed, and affect:-their :they have to-.borrow 100. per cent. of :. ate' of _interest. I happen to belong :to ` the. 're4Iiired;:)arld.'"Ot den- ,,!the' Municipal Association, and . am tien or back which -roiakiS that aware of -the difi*tilties- Of all the local l'eVery local - anthority:'hasc-tbd borrow / ; authorities with respect to borrowing twice As 'much -Money,. -believe' that-the futuie' of -fities: find tr:increasmly'd.Lfficult to get -trousing hy,the Isle. of Mari.is dependent -the lieeessarY money, -they, 'rec&ire for' - not.- the- availability .of housing-Scheiries. Sry. 411;.co1O.Urs' hibou riaIsbut the' availability of Gove-rnment on gip othet side, -it:. has' 7:di and 4' hope.- that -the Local -1-been the - .ob'iect-.10- .•:-PriaVi:de," as 'Ma's* dihrizienfli-d arid the :G:Overnment lousës as—there---jkds .tkie will"o'-into-- the-?tiestion of finding ;1iteria1s fo r but- NO .02,suCh -*a means to 'assist- local in. their -IA the' Igle- 0f 'Mitiiliyeriiiiig! - • - '1,15e7d'Goverhirren oarcl=tstirriates forliousing and Drainage Received. TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10,. 1952 439

-.Mr Bolton: It is not only local consideration in future :projects, -and..bY authorities who are finding it difficult to spending £75 more per house they could borrow money to-day. It is difficult for improve the houses considerably, and anybody. If the hon. member for Middle suggests -that the local authorities are instead if creating eornyobnds in the to carry out their housing schemes in villages and rural areas which will keeping with ' the annual deficiency surely become slum's, they will be doing system at a lower rate of interest, the a service in the Isle of Man'. - . local authorities are not going to have any easier job to find the money they Mr Kerruish: I would like to con- want. The Government cannot fix the gratulate the Local Government Board rate, because it is ' the lender who on their rural housing, but I Am sur- decides what he would lend it at. If is prised to see that the rents are 25 per no use beating a big drum on the ques- cent. higher than under the Board's own tion of borrowing money. Under the scheme. Could not- the Local Govern- accumulated fund it was decided that it ment Board consider putting ...Laxey, was good policy to use it in capitalising which is only a derelict mining 'village, these grants. The remedy is not there, on the same basis as a parish, as the and it is no good the hon, member sug- rateable. valve is a low one? Laxey has gesting it. footed the bill so far, but they can go no further. I would also like to ask Deemster Cowley: The local authori- whether the Board have still under con- ties have been borrowing cheaper than sideration a proposal for a second small the Isle of Man Government. It floated housing scheme at Maughold. .a 3,i per cent, loan, and I see that it is down to 92. Mr Crellin: In reply to the hon. The Speaker: The difficulty with local member for Garff, the Board are not authorities is that they borrow on short considering any further housing scheme term loans. at Maughold, as there is no need. They are considering two houses in Lezayre. Deemster Cowley: They must expect There are only 13 names on the list, and to borrow at 4 per cent, and if by that there is a possibility of producing, more. system you capitalise the equivalent of houses than are required. At Bride and the three-quarters annual deficiency Andreas there were 40 names on the grant, the actual result will be exactly list, but that was reduced to 14 genuine the same. The local authorities will cases, one over the number available, have to realise they cannot get money cheaper, but pay the current rate of in- terest; • Mr Kerruish: I hope • the chairman' is not condemning .the second 'small Mr. McFee: The chairman of the Local housing scheme at Maughold on the Government Board, Mr Crellin referred evidence at Bride and other places with- to the removing of frills. from Local. out considering it on its merits. Grivernment Board houses. Does he refer-to the fungus and fur on the bed- Mr Crellin: There .are no sites room', and living-room walls? If so, I able except very expensiVe sites, and agree it would be a good thing. I have there 'is a tremendous amount of dead had some. :experience' in.. the •building walling. At LaXey they are payifig the tfacle, and we found by experience in lowest rate of • any district, 4d lower .0i-6:Isle -Of Man that it was too exposed than any comparable area. With regard for. fateti tricking. Yet they have used to farm braise rents, we put up these. it recently, and the result is that in at houses, making a gift to the land owner lgast one building. project I find that a of the house on his property, and we -do '13&" of'-hotises .are E'etiVered fwith not --w.ant. to change these schemes, ':if dipndflèors•haNie: to be 'ripped up possible.. "With regard to the fung-ti grid thltejears. -siaggest•tO7the fin-, I would like the hon.' member for dial:A.14m f14he.Lctca1 Goverinnent Rushen, Mr McFe-e, to name the houses. Ilestit:::that shoulrEbe. taken.. into. There has been. .a certain 'amount of

—..ht:LON/3".GbireriainUnt:Board--7-Est1rnatesifor Housing and Drainage Rqc9ivecl.. 440 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 disappointment in the timber, which NAVAL, MILITARY AND WAR PEN- was brought over from England, and it SIONS COMMITTEE.—ESTIMATES is causing a kind of scum where oilcloth OF £1,800 RECEIVED. is put on top. We have had to take up these floors and' cover them with plastic Mr Higgins: I beg to move:— tiles. We have done it at Crosby, and even air spaces make no difference. Whereas the Naval. Military and War Pen- With regard to faced bricks, the Board sions Committee has submitted its estimates of expenditure totalling 21,800 for the pur- have got houses in many exposed places, pose of carrying out approved policy in the but it is only this afternoon that we financial year ending 31st March, 1953. have heard that there is any damp on the walls. Resolved.—that Tynwald requests His Ex- cellency to give consideration to the same in - Mr Coole:.Have you not repaired any framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. houses at Ballasalla? (The amount of the Estimate for the year 1951-52 was 21,900, but a supplementary vote Mr Crellin:• Not new houses. of 2200 was passed.) Mr Coole: There have been leakages Your Excellency, I beg to move this through doors and windows. resolution standing in my name. The estimate this year is £100 less than last Mr Creilin: That is not caused by year, and I would like to take the oppor- fact:1 bricks. The hon. member for tunity to say that during the year the Middle, Mr. Nivison, has referred to Government Property Trustees built municipal authorities in England bor- rowing from a pool, but some of them new premises for the War Pensions are finding things very awkward. Committee, and as a result we have Onchan has done extraordinarily well given up the offices in Athol Street at in the way of housing, and has no slum the saving of the small sum of £130 a property. They have done a good job year. of work, compared with other local The resolution was carried. authorities. But I would point out that the pool must be provided from some- where. There is not all that money about for people to dip into nowadays. ASSESSMENT BOARD.—ESTIMATES The hon. member for South Douglas, Mr Taggart, has referred to Janet's Corner. OF E2,000 RECEIVED. The Board is going to concentrate on Mr Moore: I beg to move:— Janet's Corner, and the reason is that the Nissen huts are in a bad condition. Whereas the Assessment Board has sub- They are leaking and cannot be repaired mitted its estimates of expenditure totalling yet there is a family of 13 there and 22,000, made up as follows for the purpose many families of lour and five. Some of carrying out approved policy in the are Douglas people, but many are financial year ending 31st March, 1953., ' masons Who are working all over the Salaries and Administration 2.1,358 Island and might as well live at Janet's Valuers' Fees 650 Corner as any'where else. The Pavilion is also in a bad state, although it has a 22,000 splendid oak 'floor. Our architect has estimated that it will cost £10,000 to Resolved.—that Tynwald requests His Ex- cellency to give consideration to the Same in erect a brick bbilding, but there may be framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. some alternative scheme, as it is an (The amount of the Estimate for the year essential centre for amusement. Dances 1951-52 was 24,000.) are held there, and I believe there are cinema shows two or three times a I beg to move the resolution standing week. We have had an offer of the in my name, the estimates for the same rent as the other people are paying. Assessment Board. I do not think this resolution will evoke much criticism, The resolution was carried. and in fact I think we should receive a

Naval, Military and War Pensions Committee—Estimates of £1,800 Received..— Assessment Board—Estimates a £2,000 Received. T'YNWALD, COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 441

vote of confidence from this Court, I have the honour to move the resolu. because we have reduced our estimates tion standing in my name in respect to from £4,000 to £2,000. the Manx Museum. The trustees have framed the estimates with great care; Mr Nivison: You have reduced the taking into consideration the rises in work, too. salary 'Which have come up in the nor- mal way in the way of annual incre- Deemster Cowley: They have finished ments, they have still been able to the work. frame the estimates so as to show a reduction on last year. Salaries at Mr Moore; If the other boards of £4,086 show an increase of £400. There Tynwald were in the happy position we is a small increase of £110 in the item are in, Your Excellency would have for administration and maintenance, much less diffiCulty in framing your and is caused by the increase in the cost Budget. The total amount of expendi- of fuel and lighting and postage, but ture was £3,350, but we received certain • there is a reduction of £125 in the item revenue from the rating authorities and for the Museum and Art Gallery. There .other sources. Although we do not is a small increase of £35 under the require so much money, we are doing library item. The item for £1150 for our Work as well as ever, and we are the Manx National Trust is a new a very happy board and a credit to the item and was fully explained at the last Court. Tynwald by His Honour Deem ster Mr Crellin: I beg to second the resolu- Cowley. There is the very substantial tion. saving of £549 under the heading of ancient monuments, and the item of The resolution was carried. £80 for the Cregneish Village Museum is the same as last year. The item for the "Peggy" Nautical Museum was £800 yast year, but is only £50 MUSEUM AND NATIONAL TRUST.— this year, and we anticipate a sznall in- ESTIMATE OF £7,594 RECEIVED. come from admission fees to both museums. Last year we received £54 Mr Brownsdon: I beg to hove:— from Cregneish in admission fees, and Whereas the Museum Trustees have sub- £30 from the "Peggy" Museum. There mitted their estimates of expenditure total- is E45 for the Folk Life Survey, and ling £7,594, made up as follows, for the pur- pose of carrying out approved policy in the there is a slight increase in the item financial year ending 31st March, 1953, for furniture. I might explain that Salaries (incluing Superannua- "furniture" does not mean chairs and tion and National Insurance tables, but the particular type of furni-ir -Administration and Main- ture needed for museums, such as dis- tenance 1,055 play 'cases. There is an item for £300 Contributions) £4,086 for publications, but the revenue from Museum and Art Gallery 265 their sale is credited to the Govern- Library, 233 Manx National Trust 750 ment. If any member would like -de- Ancient Monuments 180 tailed information, I will be pleased to Cregneish Village Museum 80 give it "Peggy" Nautical Museum 50 Mr Taggart: I beg to secOlid -and to Folk Life Survey 45 reserve my remarks. £6,744 Furniture MO The resolution was carried. Publications—Balance Of Vote 1951-52 300 £7594 FORESTRY, MINES' AND LAND BOARD.—ESTIMATE OF £24,000 Resolved.—that- Tynwald requedts His Ex- ,. cellency to give consideration to the same in RECEIVED. framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. Mr Corkhill: I beg to move that:— (The amount of the Estimate for the year Whereas the Isle of Man Forestry, Mines and , 1951-52 was £7,777, but a supplementary vote Lands Board have submitted their estimates for £956 is required.) . of expenditure, made up as follows, totalling Museum and NaUonal Trust—Estimate of £1,594 Received.—Forestry, Mines and Land' i3oard—Estirnate of £24,000 Received. •442 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10,- 1952

£24,000, for the purpose of carrying out ap- A considerable, proportion of this ex- proved policy in the financial year ending 31st March, 1953. penditure is in the form of root stocks A—Forestry : _- and tree seeds, and the amount here is Salaries sand Wages (Net) £22,708 • £1,500. Owing to the ever existing fire Purchase of Trees, etc. 8,467 danger risk, it is essential that this'for- midable insurance covering of £630 be 31,175 maintained in the interests of the-Board. Less receipts from sale of Most of the cost of forest protection is Trees, etc. 9,515 expendeed on fencing materials, where 221,660 B—Mines and Lands : thousands of yards of rabbit netting are Exspenditure 5,782 required annually for the erection of Less receipts from Rents . new fences, and an item of £500 is al- and Royalties 3.142 lowed for this. The heaviest item of 2,340 •expense is in the ,maintenance of run- nint:cbsts of transport and machinery. £24,000 At present we have on charge five lorries three tractors, one light van, two Land Resolved.—that Tynwald requests His Ex- cellency to give consideration to the same in Rovers, one stationery sawmill, and two framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. portable saw benches. Motor lorries are (The amount of the Estimate for the year used in connection with transport of 1951-52 was £26.800.) workmen, extraction of timber from the I have the honour to move this resolu- forests, and the delivery of orders of tion in the place of Mr Brew, and I forest produce. The item here is £2,500. would like to give just, a brief outline Extraction of timber within the forests of the work of the Forestry, Mines and is largely carried out by horse. The Lands Board. The Forestry Depart- most economical practice in this direc- ment employs a- staff of 78 workmen, of tion has been to hire horses from whom 49 are regular, 17 temporary for farmers living at short distances from . the winter season and 12 are incorpor- the plantation where extraction oper- ated in the Farm Labour Scheme. The ations are being carried out, and the expenses total £21,174 18s 10d. Their cost is £700. We had to have a new chief duties as forestry workers are to lorry to replace a 1935 Bedford truck prepare and plant an area of 180 acres which is now uneconomical to run. This lorry is on order and was included of new plantation as prescribed in the . in last year's estimates at £1,150. five years' "Planting Programme" and to "beat up" or replant any failures Cries of "Agreed." which may-occur over the areas planted on the preceding year. They do general Mr Corkhill: The planting and fencing maintenance of some 2,000 acres of of 8.5 acres of shelter belt at Slieu forest area, which comprises a 'dozen Monagh, on land tenanted by .Mr Bert widely scattered plantations throughout Gill, Ballacarry Farm, Andreas, cost the Island; and produce 300,000 forest £352. Owing to heavy cropping in re- trees, in addition to the •propagation of cent years, it is proposed to -rest'- some fruit trees and ornamental shrubs. The two-thirds of our nursery ground and manufacture of ever increasing quanti- put it under greencrop at- a cost of £100. ties of fehang posts, poles, sawn timber The general -maintenance -of buildings and firewood- is also an important part and upkeep of forest roads .accounts of their wbrk. Receipts, largely from for £250, and the construction of a new the Farm 'Labour Scheme, the Local! loading bay, £500. This: is 'at •Greeba, Government 'Board, .the Housing Com- and was necessary as it' was coriSidered missioners and fruit tree service too dangerous to drop timber onto the schemes, etc., total £1,000, and that re- road. The item for the replacement 3f duces the'expenses to £20,174 18s 10d. _ worn-out -tools, - circular saws, files, etc., Owing to the limited nursery space amounts to -£20. It costs £70 for a available,' and the steady public demand goad circular Saw these days. for -ornamental trees and -shrubs, it Is still need-glary to import considerable Mr Craine: Where do you buy your Wicks of the'i rarer Varieties -for re-sale.: nails? (Laughter).

Forestry, Mines 'and Land Board—Estimate of £24,000 Received.- - • • • TYINIWALI) COURT, APRIL 10, 1952 443 - Mr Corkhill: From the same place Mr R. C. Carmen: I would like to you get your wit, sir. (Laughter). I second this resolution,.,and,.as chairman might say that I aril determined to go of the Board of Agriculture, I would on with this. I have listened patiently like to compliment the Forestry, Mines to everyone else, and now it is my tarn. and Lands Board, as we have had our (Laughter, and Hear, hear). Under experience of forestry work. administration we have the salaries of the Forester and forest clerk at St. John's Mr Kerrulsh: I also support the vote, office. Proportion of salaries of Douglas and I see the Board is setting out to office staff and office expenses, includ- plant 180 acres of neW Plantation. This ing rentals, amounts to £2,532 15s, ld., is of the gileatest importance to the Isle a total of £31,175 3s. lid. On the of Man, and I would like to see it receipts side we have sale of trees, stepped up to 300 acres. The title under shrubs, fruit trees and bushes, £1,480. which the Ward works is the Forestry, Sale of timber in all forms such as posts, •Mines . and Lands Board, but during the poles, sawn timber, and firewood, £7,450, hearing of the estimates we heard all and miscellaneous Sales. of £585, making about the forestry and lands but nothing a total of £9,515, and leaving the vote about the mines. When I raised this required of £21,660 3s. 11d. On the ,matter.efore, we were told that the land side, there is a total area of moun- Board had some very competent men to tain or hill land. vested in the Board of deal with the question. Mining develop- approximately 21,000 acres,- while" ex- ment is a matter for the Board, and it terior boundaries cover a distance of 150 is necessary to provide employment. . miles.. It has been found that extensive renewals and repairs to fences are • Mr Gerrard There • was an item of urgently required due to deferred main- £352 for the Planting and fencing of :a tenance during the war years. Careful shelter belt , for Mr Gill, of BiLlavarry. consideration has 'been given to this I would like More infOrrnation on that question, and provision has been made point. . in the estimates for the renewal of ' approximately one and a half miles of ' MYBiotvnsdön:I Would like to sup- post and wire fences on ther,northern port th0.poiht made by the hon. member hills and three miles on the -southern for Garff, ,Mr 1-Cerruish, that the Board mountains, in addition to general main- should make-every effort to increase -the tenance and work on party fences. The planting acreage. Money: spent on such details are as follows- work is nionek well spent. , ' Mr Crowe: I move that they be taken ; • Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, in reply as read. to Me,Iterrnish, I WOUld point out that we „have increased the acreage to be Mr Corkhill:' Wages and National planted from 100 acres to 180, and .there Health Insurance, £1,690 14s. 8d. Trans- is no reason,Why we should not get up port of men and materials, £500. Fenc- . .to the figure set by the hon. member -in ing material,. £2,000. _ Alterations to: , time. All I can say about mining is that fences, Snaefell Mountain road and the Board have granted a lease and-we general maintenance,- £639, 9s. Contin- are awaiting. developments. With regard gencies, £86.19s. -4d. Adthinistrationiek- to the question raised by Mr Gerrard, penses £868 5s. ld., a total of £5,782' the _shelter belt is on the- Board's 7pro- 8s. ld. This is less theestimated receipts' perty so we are actually planting timber from royalties of £1,730 12s. 6d., ex- on our own land. There is nothing else Crown property £772 14s. fid. Common! to reply to, I think. • . , Lands Board, £939 5s.' a total of £3,442 12s., making' a vote required of The Speaker: The .ne‘ Forester. £2,339 l6S. ld. The toibi'Vote-kequired is therefore £2.1,669-3s. lld..for forestry,' Mr Corklill: The' Board has a new and £2,339 16s. id. -for lands, making a Forester, and we are satisfied that we total of £24,000: haVe -got a very 'good man. We had., a

ForestrY; Mines and Land Board-Eatithate- ô 2.24,0-06 -Received, - 444 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952

good man in Mr Duguid, but I do think Mr R. C. Cannell: Why not give the we have an excellent man again in Mr gentleman his full title? He was the Lambie. Mayor of Ramsey. The resolution was carried. Mr Bolton : The Chairman of the Ramsey Commissioners left the dinner to attend a class. • Deemster Cowley: Perhaps it was a CIVIL DEFENCE—ESTIMATE OF welcome release from the speeches. £5,976 RECEIVED. • Mr Bolton: 1 think we should be Mr Bolton: I beg to move that:— grateful to these people who give of Whereas the Civil Defence Commission their time for this wOrk, although I am have submitted their estimates of expendi- afraid there is not much enthusiasm ture, totalling £5,976, for the purpose of from the general public. carrying out approved policy in the financial year ending 31st March, 1953. Mr Corlett: I beg to second the reso- Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- lution. cellency to give consideration to the same in framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. Mr Nivison: The hon. member men- (The amount of the Estimate for the year tioned uniforms. I would like to know 1951-52 was £5,000.) how much was spent under that head? ' As the mover of We last resolution Mr Bolton : The sum of £597, but it stated, I only intend to make a very must be remembered that this includes brief statement. (Laughter). I want to cloth beltings, hatchets, and so on. Dur- say, first of all, that the vote last year ing the coming year we will have to pro- was £5,000, and the total spent during vide £1,000 for civil defence uniforms. •last year was £4,693 is. 6d. and £2,658 In addition to that there is the provi- of that sum was spent on the provision sion of uniform for the Auxiliary Fire of fire service equipment and uniforms, Service, £500. It is the policy now to etc. There was a sum of £700 spent on provide the A.F.S. personnel with uni- civil defence training, and the balance form, and also the Civil Defence. We was ordinary general expenditure. This have provided for uniforms for some of year we have estimated that we shall the personnel but certainly not for all. need the sum of £5,976. I have a state- ment setting out exactly all the details, The resolution was carried. but unless the Court wishes me to go into them I do not propose to do so, and will content myself with moving the vote, although I am quite prepared to MOTOR RACES COMMITTEE— answer any questions in full. There is ESTIMATES FOR 1952 EVENTS only one thing I would like to say, and RECEIVED. that is that we had well over 200 recruit- Mr Teare: I beg to move: ments, and we have some very loyal — Whereas the Races Committee of Tynwald instructors, and the members and the has submitted its estimates of expenditure committee are very enthusiastic and totalling £15,449, made up as follows, for the very anxious to carry out their duties. purpose of carrying out approved policy in the financial year ending 31s1 March. 1953. The Speaker: You are out for blood, (1) Towards the cost of the 1952 Motor Car Races a2ss then? (2) Towards the cost of the 1952 International Auto-cycle Tourist Mr Bolton: No, but the members are Trophy Races 8,500 very keen, and I think that His Honour (3) Towards the cost of the 1952 Deemster Cowley will bear me out when International Tourist Trophy I say that at a recent dinner at Ramsey Races 900 one of the members of the Ramsey Com- (4) Towards the cost of the 1951 Manx Grand Prix Races 964 missioners left early in order to attend a (5) Towards the cost of the 1952 class. Manx Grand Prix Races 2,250

Civil Defence—Estimate of £5,976 Received.—Motor Races Committee—_Estimates for 1952 Events Received, TYNWALD COURT, AMU, 10,. 1952 445

(6) Towards the cost of providing publicity value we .get in the early part "Bound the Course" broadcast- of the year in the Press concerning this ing facilities 460 race. Tynwald voted £2,500 for the run- (7) Towards the cost of official enter- taining in respect of the 1952 ning of these races last year and of this races 125 sum, according to the accounts sub- mitted by the Club, £2,371 14s 8d was £15;449 required, which is a slight decrease. The Committee recommends Tynwald to Resolved,—that Tynwald requests His Ex- finance the British Racing Drivers' cellency to give consideration to the same in framing the Estimates for the year 1952-53. Club for 1952 and the Club has agreed "(The amount of the Estimate for the year to organise a race for production cars 1951-52 was £13,700.) ,on 29th May, this year. The only other date available for a race was in July, , The Tynwald Race Committee have dis- and the committee felt that it would be cussed and very carefully scrutinised better to hold the race at the end of the accounts of all the organisations May, rather than in a month when it concerned, and we have effected a con- was not so vital to provide attractions siderable economy in .expenditure with- for visitors. One race only, the British out unduly affecting the value of the Empire Trophy Race for production cars, races either from the standpoint of will be held and will cover 200 miles of sporting events, or from the value the existing course. Arrangements are which the Island derives from the run- on foot this year to have the race ning of these races. We have received sponsored not by the "Daily Express," the utmost co-operation from the but by the "Daily Dispatch." The orga- various bodies concerned. This is an in- nisers have asked for a total grant of crease from last year, when the amount £1,750 on the understanding that the was £13,700 compared with the £15,449 Manx Government will again pay the in this resolution, an increase of about police and Highway Board charges, and £700. Regarding the Car Race, the the Race Committee are prepared to re- races organised by the British Racing commend Tynwald to vote a total sum Drivers' Club in June, 1951, comprised of £2,250 towards the expenses of this two events, held in the same afternoon, race. We have given some thought to the British Empire Trophy Race for the future of the Car Race in the Isle production cars and the Manx Cup of Man. The Island, as I say, has re- Race for racing cars. We were advised ceived valuable publicity in the national last year that the great expense of Press and some visitors have been owning and maintaining a racing car is brought over. It is clear, however, that making it increasingly difficult torun a the race is not a notable attraction for race for this type of car without offer- visitors. At a meeting organised by the ing large prizes and big starting money Publicity Board and representing many for competitors. On the other hand the sections of the visiting industry, the production car race is increasing in opinion was expressed that the Car popularity and does not entail the same Races should be continued, but that they expense. In 1951 the British Empire should be held in the third week in Trophy Race was sponsored by the August, at a time when the amusement "Daily Express" and extensive and places are open, but when there is a valuable publicity was given to the big falling off in visitors. The T.T. event in the northern edition of the Races are, of course, the first big event paper. An excusion was run under the We have. The 1951 races probably auspices of the same paper and whilst created a record both for the brilliant we did not get the numbers we would weather which .accompanied them and have liked, a good number did support the great crowds of visitors and it. It is only fair to say that the car Motorists who came to the Island to races did not otherwise bring many witness them. As 'a result of the visitors to the Island, but there is the Weather, large entries and record gates

Motor Races Committee—Estimates for 1952 Events Received.

446 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1952

at the outdoor prize distribution there ting back of the mountain fences at cer- was. a surplus of receipts over expendi- tain corners and the provision of per- .ture amounting to £663. The ISrfze dis- manent or semi-permanent first-aid posts tributions were glade in the grounds of at selected points on the mountain sec- the Villa Marina in brilliant weather. tion. We have had plans prepared for Of course the receipts from this source these but we •came to the conclusion entirely depend on, the weather. The that. the proposed buildings were too 'Auto-Cycle Union, however, drew ciur elaborate and costly, and we are obtain- attention to the fact that expenditure ing designs for moveable shleters. We are arranging for the Highway Board to had: increased during the -year by more .make trailers available for 1952 and we than £500, notably in grants to foreign hope to have improved. types of first- riders, medical fees, and, to a lesser aid posts ready for the following year. degree, in a number of items in which Now in connection with the T.T. Races wage increases were reflected. They it was pointed out to us that they had also informed us that their committee •incurred considerable cost in the print- had decided, owing to the number of ing of the programmes and that they accidents, that they would require com- have considerable competition in the petitors to take out a compulsory acci- .sale of these programmes from privately •dent policy.. Claims against insurers printed copies, and they are, we under- under existing policies in 1951 had stand, taking up the question with a amounted to £3,183 against premiums view to dealing with these private prin- of £1,389. The insurers had therefore ters' programme, which do no doubt announced that they could not continue considerably affect the revenue derived to cover the events without a 50 per from the sale of the official programme. 'cent increase in premiums. The extra Regarding the International T.T. Bicycle cost of these two items to the promoters Races organised by the June Effort Com- amounted to about £500. In addition mittee, they are growing in popularity to this extra item it was pointed out every year and we feel that they are that there would be increases in the deserving of the support of Tynwald. 1952 accounts owing to rises in cost, The 1951 races received a grant from police expenses, etc. The Auto-Cycle Tynwald amounting to £750 and the Union explained that the receipts in June Effort contributed a sum of E678. 1951 had been a record owing mainly The June Effort Committee desire's to in- to the exceptional weather. They felt crease the international entry in the that in preparing their estimate for 1952 Bicycle Races, which adds .totheir pres- they must anticipate more normal tige, publicity value, and attractiveness weather and a consequent reduction in to visitors. They have voted the sum receipts. The committee went thrOugh of £900 towards the 1952 races and every item of expenditure with the re- have • asked Tynwald to provide a presentatives of the Auto-Cycle Union similar sum. The Race Committee are and we noted that they had achieved of the opinion that,,the Bicycle Races economies in a number of directions, have a big future and might eventually and we are satisfied that they are co- become one of the leading features of operating whole-heartedly in our desire the Manx season. We accordingly re- to effect every reasonable economy in commend Tynwald to.' vote the sum of the running of the races. We eventually £900 for the .1952 races. Now, regarding agreed that we would recommend Tyn- the other' 'race, the Manx Grand Prix, wald to increase the grant to the Auto- 'I think we owe a debt of gratitude to Cycle Union by £500, and the Auto- that enthusiastic band of young men Cycle Union has informed us that they who giye their services gratuitously for carefully analysed the circumstances' of th'e running of these races. Last year every accident in an endeavour' to the Manx Grand Prix Committee re- eliminate any factors that might have ceived a grand total of £1,850, of which contributed to it.. A number of sugges- the sum of £337 was to enable a deficit tions were considered including the set- on the previous year's races to be

Motor Races Committee—Estimates for 1952 Events Received. TYNWALD COURT,T..A13RIL 19, 1962 417

cleared. It was appreciated by this' the broadcast . and £125 for entertain- committee when the 1951 grant was re- . -ing. in .1952, a total of £575. . All these commended, • that it would be unlikely things I have riiientioned total £15,439. to. cover all requirements, and the Grand When the Publicity vote was being dis- • Prix Committee was ..given to under- cussed in thiS Court, everyone, I think, stand that they should try to-.work- with- agreed that everything possible should in the grant, but that if it should prove be done to fill in the gaps in the insufficient, the Tynwald- Race Corranit-; season and by - these races we are tee would recommend Tynwald to make 'a'tteMpting to extend the season at the up the deficit • in the following " year. beginning as well as at the .end. I think • Partly oWing..to i'ises in costs and partly the Island willderive the utrriost bene- to- thefact that :One race had: to be fit In. 1952 from- the running of these - •Onstponed becauge 'of bad weather,- ,the ..races. • . -total-deficit amounted to £964 18s- 9d. Thus, if no Government .grants had been : • Mr- Kerruish: 1 beg to second, and I paiffin. :1951, expenditure would have would like the hon. member of the exceededecelptS by £2,272: -The Grand Council to get .their programme printed Prix- Coriunittee- have :asked. our com- in time to eover the 'practice periods. mittee to recommend- TyriWald..,to vote The hon. member says there is a diffi- £964 to pay off the. deffcit, and £1,750 cultY- in selling programmes. Quite a as a grant towards the 1952 races, and number of visitors go out and watch the = to- pay.. direct the pollee • and Highway practices, but they cannot follow the Board charges, which in 1951 amounted practices because there-is .no programme to £712. The Tynwald Race Commit- available. - hope the committee will urge the ..C.O to get their programme • tee are not in favour of paying any pro-. out at the proper time, particularly if portion of the race expenses direct, and they are going to stamp out the pirate we are of the opinion that sonle econo- printer. mies can be effected in ',the races, for -exanple in the printing of programmes, Mr Corlett: Personally, I regard this in which the Auto-Cycle Union has as very 'similar to the work of the effected a considerable saving: We 'Publicity Board. Experience has proved4 accordingly recommend Tynwald to. particularly last year, what a tremen- vote_ to.:.enable.cthe. deficit in 1951. dous drawing power there is in the T.T. to be paid, and the sum of £2,250. to- faces, and -also ,the Manx Grand Prix. wards the 1952 Manx Grand Prix, and The committee were of the opinion, and we have informed the committee that the I.:think Mr Teare has already men- figures recommended should cover ex- tioned it, that the car races in the past penses and -that it must not in future be have not been the same draw, and we assumed that deficits will automatically did consider . for quite a while what be refunded'. Regarding .broadcasting, should be the future policy. The -hon. , in 1951. a sum ef £600 was voted for the member of the Council has said that the purpose of providing- a broadcast of intention this year is largely an experi- inforMation to six points on the Course ment in trying a production race, and I tl:link that future races will be deter- at a c4ost!of £475 and ta provide_ hospi- Mined largely by what happens this tality at _an. estimated eost Of Z125 In year.---I-Would like to join with the hon. fact 621 was Silent-on the formerrAnd mimber of the :Council who moved the £105 15s lid on the latter. For the 1952 resolution,- and I am sure he was ex- - races we have hecepfed far providing pressing • the feeling of the Court, in the broadcast a "- tender of150, the , th.anking. -those local gentlemen who Same`fikUre,aSi last year, which is sub- gwe so much • time to the organisation . ject to. Confirmation !ay. TYnWaid, and •rof the Manx Grand Prix and the bicycle •A'estimate --that the provision of Post ',aces, Which are becoming a very • Office circuits . should not .exceed £100: popular re‘ient and very much appre- . We therefore recommencl. Tynwald to =•ciated. -..Regarding the question raised • vote a sum of £459'.in connection with • by the hon. 'member for Garff (Mr

gator Races Cbrnmitte—e=:Eitates for 1952. EVentS-Re-theived. -- •• 448 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL .10, '1952

Kerruish), the matter of the pro- I think it would be better if we took grammes, that is being taken up with this resolution to-day. We have left the two organising bodies concerned, item No. 22 over in order that His and the point he has mentioned is Honour might be quite clear. But I receiving attention, so that there will think this resolution should go forward be no future trouble of that kind. to-day. This resolution does not bind Mr Craine: I would like to point out, us to anything, but just gives power for too, in regard to the bicycle races, that the forming of a scheme. we have-- Deemster Cowley: May I suggest to Several Members: Agreed. the hon. member that this amendment Mr Craine: You can call "Agreed," of the warding might meet the different but I know what it means to the Island views: "That in the opinion of Tynwald to have all these races in the Isle of steps should be taken to give considera- Man. Some of you were hardly alive tion to bringing marginal land in the at the time, but I can go back as far as Isle of Man into a state of cultivation." 1904, when I was going round the That would give the Board ample time course with the Lord Lieutenant of to prepare a scheme, but it does not tie Shropshire and various other people to us to any big scheme yet. show them the course, and I have been interested in all the other races, the T.T. Mr Farrant: That is only a pious and the rest, since then. I am going to resolution. We would get nowhere with say this. You can talk about agriculture that. and -anything else, but we have only one industry. Mr Callister: Quite a number of men have started to do quite a little bit of Several Members: No, no. marginal land improvement this season, Mr Craine: And these races are the one and I think this should be made retro- thing which keeps this Island going. spective to cover land that is dealt with Anything we can do on behalf of these this season. races in the early part of the season, and the Manx Grand Prix at the end Mr R. C. Cannel!: I am not very much of the season, should be done. We in favour of His Honour's proposal, but should do our utmost, because we live I am quite prepared to take out the on them. word "immediate." Mr Teare: I would just like to men- Deemster Cowley: My amendment tion the fact that the arrivals in June states that Tynwald is of opinion that last year represented 22.8 per cent, of steps should be taken to bring marginal the total arrivals for the season, which land into a state of cultivation. We are shows how this particular traffic has not prepared to undertake it at present, developed. but we are prepared to say that steps The resolution was carried. should be taken to, give consideration to it. The Attorney-General: Why can't, you submit a scheme and let us consider the IMPROVEMENT OF MARGINAL scheme? LAND. " Mr Kerruish: The Board of Agri- Mr R. C. Cannell: I beg to move:— culture and Fisheries have tried for two That in the opinion of Tynwald immediate years to help meat rationing and get the steps should be taken to bring marginal land in the Isle of Man into a state of cultivation. development of marginal land going and 'request the Board of Agriculture and with that object in view. This simply Fisheries, the Highway and Transport Board. asks that the Boards should be allowed and the Forestry, ', Mines and Lands Board to prepare a scheme with this object, for the to get together to see if they can agree approval of His Excellency the Lieutenant- on the carrying out of certain works, Governor and of Tynwald. and then the scheme could come before

Improvement of Marginal Land. TyNWALb COURT, AE1I. io, il52 440

this Court. We cannot get any co- Board also fell through because Mr operation. We have tried for months Brew had to go in hospital. I have also to get a conference; there has been no in addition had a personal letter from conference, and we cannot get any- your Excellency on this subject, and where. That is why this resolution is you have also invited me to come to your on the agenda. office for various discussions, but I must say I would be delighted to have the co- The 'Speaker: I feel sure that practic- operation of the Highway Board and the ally every member of the Court is pre- Forestry, Mines and Lands Board, be- pared to adopt this resolution to-day. cause think it is too big a scheme for This is my fourth full day in the pre-. I cincts of the Court this week. I think the Board of Agriculture to tackle alone. the majority of hon. members have I do not want to say anything which shown a good deal of patience, and that would prejudice the scheme before it is members are entitled to a good deal of brought into operation, but, personally, credit for having sat through all these I think it would be better to concentrate debates, without entering into dis- on the good land, some of which is going cussion on this question at this hour of out of cultivation—(Cries of "No")---. the day. I certainly am not going to do instead of bothering with this marginal it. Surely the better way is for the hon. land, and for that reason I would like member for Ayre to move the resolu- the assiqtance of the two Boards I have tion, and after he has made his case, if mentioned. A scheme of this kind any hon. member wishes to move an could run us into as much money as the East African ground nut scheme—and amendment, he can do so. We can't cut perhaps produce as little result—if we down the discussion before the hon. are not careful. I move the resolution, member .even • moves his resolution. I the terms of which I have already read. think the hon. member for Ayre should move the resolution. Deerrister Cowley: I beg to move an amendment, not with the idea of ob- Mr R. C. Cannell: I would like to pro- structing any scheme, because I think it ceed with this resolution, but it has been is well worthy of consideration, but there pointed out to me that it was agreed Is one aspect of it I would emphasise, that it should be deferred for a and which is worth considering, and that month, and probably some of those is that we should try and improve our members who are not present to-day own marginal lands—I mean the Crown may object if it is not deferred, but, as I lands. The important point in the have said, I would like to proceed. Now, resolution as it stands is that we are sir, I do not want anyone to think that committing ourselves. We say "that im- this proposal is mine, and I do not want mediate steps be taken to bring the to force anyone's hand, but I would like marginal land of the Isle of Man into a to point out that the Board prepared a state of cultivation." The proposer of scheme and submitted it to your Excel- that resolution does not know what it will cost, and I suggest that the following ency, and you approved of the majority amendment, if accepted by the Court, of the recommendations. In addition to would be equally as efficacious:— that, you wrote to the Board requesting us to meet the Highway Board and the That steps be taken to consider putting Forestry, Mines and Lands Board. That marginal land into a state of cultivation., and Tynwald requests the Board of Agricul- we arranged to do with the chairman of ture, the Highway Board and the Forestry. the Boards, but we were unfortunate. As Mines and Lands•Board to prepare a scheme. you know, the late Mr Charles Gill (then chairman of the Highway Board) passed I do not think you can have anything 'fairer than that. away whilst in London, and I was to have seen him when he came back, and ' Mi R. C. Carmen: I am very grateful the other appointment with the chair- to His Honour, and I am quite prepared man of the Forestry, Mines and Lands to accept the amendment

Improvement of Marginal Land. 450 TYNWALD"COHRT; - -APRIL 1952'

Mr Crowe: As .one member of the about "zit; and I know there are long Highway Board, tim rather at a loss to acres of land along the main road to understand just where the Highway Ramsey; but unless help is the Board will come into it, and I am at a owners Of-that land may :not do any- loss to understand the chairman of the thing about it. I am not one of those Board of Agriculture when he compares people who would plough the mountain the project with the ground nut scheme. top, nor the Ballaugh Curraghs, but I I am convinced there are many hundreds think there is room for a modified of acres in the Isle of Man worthy of scheme, and, furthermore, I believe there cultivation, and bringing back to what are men in the Island who, if they got they were a few years ago. I am quite the necessary assistance in the way of satisfied as to that. I met a man in 'my manure and seeds, would take part in, own sheading after the mixed crops the scheme, and this would benefit agri- ' subsidy had been debated by this Court, culture. and he has ploughed land against the mountain side in Michael in a field, and • Mr Kerruish: Surely this is not in it is as good as any land in the lowlands. keeping with the policy on the main- He- thought he might get a subsidy for land, where they realise they have to this breaking up, and then found he was produce more food or starve; but here,' to get nothing. of course,-we seem to realise nothing Of the sort. We have to develop every- Mr R. C. Cannell: It was ploughed be- possible acre if we are going to survive,. fore Christmas, before the scheme came and here you have a possible reservoir out'in England. for those beef supplies you want, and;- as I said before, the Board of Agricul- Mr Crowe: I admit that it was ture have been trying to get a scheme ploughed this year, and before the or two years, and the resolution is' an scheme came out in England, but the attempt to get the operation of • the scheme that came out in England and Other' boards and to get the scheme the mixed crop subsidy approved by this going for this year. Let us get on Court, are rather different. In my with it. humble opinion it will not bring -one acre into "cultivation. That is my candid -Mr Brownsdon: I would •like to sup...- opinion—that the mixed crop subsidy port this resolution very strongly in- will not bring one acre back into culti- Med. . I have been advocating the re- - vation. clamation of the- marginal land for - The Speaker: Is this not a different Years, and I am sorry that the mover thing altogether? of the resolution does not seem too •-. enthusiastic about it. Your Excellency, Mr Crowe: It was passed to produce from figures with which you supplied , more food, and one reason why it will me, in answer to a question_ at the last. , not do much is because it' is a hard' crop- sitting of Tkowald but one, it appears:: to harvest. Coming _back to 'the -Mag-.. 'that £153,000 went out of the . Island ginal land; I •am eager 'and willing to during fast year to buy ,beef beasts. 1 work with the other. Beards, but I fail believe--and It is not a wild belief; it • to' Understand_ how the Highway Board is supported by figures on the main- comes into it until we have a•plan. land—that with the reclainaticin of " . . land' in. the.. Island, all the beef we Mr Corkhill: I _think it is a great pity require -can tie- •pi•oduced here. nierv.:, that cold water should be thrown on 'aft 20,1700-.-aerre:Of land which 'Used" this Seheine. I think there is room for a be cUltivated,- but' whiCh- has hoWrgdtie- certain modified scheme, such as where but of. cultivation.; -anci7 there-."are ap- owners haVellet-land_:getlint of eultiva- mxinrately - ;000 -acres Of- iand'under-;;. tionr-and2 I-AbinWLtheS6-3 .With Afe-ncon. ti-OI nfilh&`'-'0.6Veriirnenti' 'the- reasonable helps,=:.-Viiitild:-.-do-.6Ontething-- property- of the-Government, -and- it ______ . -- • • Improvement. of -Marginal. TYN. WALD COURT, APRIL .10 1952 _451 . possible to improve all this land, and The Governor: I am afraid-71 must that does not mean ploughing up the rule the hon. member out order. sides of moUntains. I have figures here He has asked his question. of land in Cornwall. over . 600 feet in altitude, exposed to -much the same , Members: Vote. weather as we have here. It cost a litt16 below E20 per acre to reclaim, and the Mr R. C. Cannell: If the hon. member total cost was £12,000. It earned over wants me to mention specific land, I am £1,000 for 600 acres after 12 months, not going to do it in this Court, but I and it lias earned more than £1,000 a have many a time felt and I still feel, year every year since 1948, and is carry- when I travel all over the Island, if ing £10,000 worth of stock at the we had our farms classified A, El and moment. If anyone has the temerity C. (Hear, hear.) We have here at the to liken that kind of reclamation to the present time an influx of farmers from East African groundnut scheme, I do the other side. Some of them are good, not think they are looking the facts in and others are bad. Some of them have the face. been a disgrace to the other side, but they have come over here and bought Mr R. C. Cannell: I would like to farms. I would like to see the system reply to Mr Crowe. He asks where the of classification brought into operation Highway Board comes into it; but he in the Isle of Man, and then we would must remember that the people would be able to handle them. have to be got to these outlandish places. I well remember these places. The Governor: I will now put the When I was a lad my father used to amended resolution. travel all over the Island, and he used to take us with him. We knew who Mr Brownsdon: Is the word "immedi- lived in the villagei, and under what ate" struck out? conditions they lived, and the reasons why they left them. I am sorry that The .GOvernor Yes. Mr Brownsdon does not think I am enthusiastic over the scheme, and my Mr Brownsdon: I think it is a pity. answer there is that I know a great deal It will be-up to two--years now.- - - about marginal land in the Island— probably more than any other member The amended resolution was carried. of the Court—because I was reared among it. and my advice is to concen- trate on the good land which is going out of cultivation, and I am satisfied that that policy would be of the greatest FINANCIAL RELATIONS WITH THE IMPERIAL GOVERNMENT AND benefit to the farmers. CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM. Mr Crowe: May I ask a question, Your Excellency? Would the hon. The Attorney-General; We were 'o member specify what good land is going have reconstituted the committee ap- out of cultivation? And, furthermore, pointed by the Court with reference to he spoke of his knowledge of the land, the financial relations between the Isle and I say, very respectfully, I am of Man and the Imperial Government, speaking of land which was cultivatda but we cannot proceed with that busi- and producing crops before the chair- ness until there has been a conference, man of the Board of Agriculture was and I therefore ask that this matter be born and that is going back a long way. deferred until the next Court. I hope (Laughter.) The good land is no trouble, that in a month's time the conference but the marginal land is. If we can do will have taken place. anything at all, it is with that land. You can travel from here to — The resolution wa's deferred.

Financtial-F:dlitions - -Imperial Government and Constitutional Ref drm. 452 TYNWALD COURT, APRIL 10, 1Q2.

SURCHARGE BY PUBLIC AUDITORS Mr Brownsdon seconded. . ALLOWED.—LONAN PARISH CO1VIMISSIONERS. The resolution was carried. The Governor: We will now take No. The Governor: That concludes the 38 on the agenda. It is rather an anti- business before the Court. The mem- climax to our protracted sitting. bers of the Legislative Council will now Mr Nivison: I beg to move the fol- retire, and the Keys will remain to lowing resolution standing in my transact such business as may be. May name:— I take this opportunity of wishing you all a very happy Easter. That the sum of Is 11d, amount surcharged by the Public Auditors in the accounts of The Speaker: May we wish you the the Lonan Parish Commissions for the period . from 1st April to 12th May, 1951, representing same, sir. bank interest on overdrawn account, be allowed. The Court adjourned.

HOUSE OF KEYS.

Douglas, Thursday, April 10, 1952.

The House of Keys met after Tyn- wald adjourned. The Speaker: The Keys will now ad- journ until a week next Tuesday, that is April 22nd, at 11 a.m.

Surcharge by- Puhlic Auditirs Allowed—Lonan Parish Commissioners.