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uliti7T Yes, it's true, we're kinda evil... Wed Jun 1 1 00:08:02 2003 213.11.54.156
>>l am really shocked by what you both said and I am sorry if the language in my post annoyed you.<< *we* Maybe should apologize to you, Suzi. But I can tell you it's not the first time someone brings this up. It's been a common subject of discussion on the French mailing list Goldochat back when I was posting there three years ago... And I've heard it tons of times in conversations with fans, even when I was a kid. Nothing as raunchy as what I was suggesting of course, but oftentimes we would go "Man, *how* are they gonna do it ?? They're brother and sister after all..." (Of course we had forgotten the possibility of other Fleedians being alive somewhere in the universe, but hey, cut us some slack, we were young and brainless)
Sorry to bring Ota on the subject again, but since *his* version was very much a continuation of the heavily Greek-Mythos-influenced Mazinger Z,lhe incest theme would not have sounded that off-topic with him at the helm : in his manga, Fleed is obviously linked to ancient Greek civilizations, and in Greek Mythology, a lot of Gods and Goddesses would marry although they were siblings.
... Too bad he wasn't in charge of the anime !! (Hold your horses ! I'm just teasing you, Gerdha and Suzi...)
Jéjé
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Suzi Greef apagrè,s Judge Jerone. Fri Jun 13 1'::59:24 2ù03 ?t0-8.23?.2
First, I am glad you are still around your Honour Judge Jerome. (ycur prolonged absence npde me think that you might have tr*ly resìgned, but I am happy nolv and reii€r/ed that the Jury walì nút be abandonèd in TTOIC). Jerome, if you read ffiy reply tù Gerdha and Je "na need for apolagies' you can see that I very well know about rnarriages betu.leen blothers ónd sisters in history, and I have given an example from ancieni Egypt,{by the uray, I know a lot about Euftspeaa histot"y tco, ss I am rì$t a cùr,'!pl€{e idb! 1É,,+ìen ìt corn*s to hisiory, ìn lact ì kn€r*c a ffi about ancient hìstery,European History, lslamic hist*ry and Christian history) . Besideq u:!tìl today cor:saguiaus nÉrriage beilr#een first cousìns stìll happens in middle easiern cùuntries, and in ftìany it is a cuttural ttadition, and of cùurse the genetic abnormalities that result from such marriages are very signÍficant and alarming f{}r healtlr care \ /frkers. Mariy hÉ*'th Èducation prograrr€ havÈ beer'! úrganised to nìake péoplÈ aware of these prúblerfis and soÈ of aim to break the "tnlìealthy'' tradition of first cousin marríages, whích are mostly arranged in the 1f rst place. But it is Yery hard to break baditioh. 14hat I amtrying lc say, Jaorr'e, is hardly ever a* arab Grendizer fan thought ot "incesf'therne to ep 74. ls it because sf cultural dilferences or diff€rences In the dialóguè of èp 74? I don't know But rne can find out. You said &st DF did not invite hÍs friends to v;Èit tiìem in Fleed with Cssmsspacer- As far as I raneber Maria in ep 73 invited Koji ta visít them in Fleed with the Cosmospacer, or didnt she? \Aftat the arabb dialagre said in ep 74 at the enrl as far as I remeber but I will check again, is thal they are going to "rebuild' not "repopulate" Fleed? úoes tne !Ì€rd "rebuild'give you a different impression than "repopulate'? Yóu see if I heard the word "repopulate' in the dialogue, for sure I !'yùuld hàve some incest tho ghts just like you guys, even for as shsrt as a splÉ cf a second. But I diCn't b€ca$se tlris rr$crd nras not used. The lvord used was "rebuì|d". Does that r*ake Èens€ to you? gesides, lsÒking €ó tie lvhùle c3nc€pt ot Fl€ed coming back to lìfe and DF thought wrongly at first thaú he was the oniy survivor are vety good clues that there other Fleedian suruivors. Did you ever wonder how the harmful radiations vanished $, quickly from Fleed and not from other Pbnets? Did not you think that thére might bè some genius Fleedian survivors behind it? tribll, that b rV an$#er b yÈur ansnÈr. I am sarry if my descriptive terxi af "diÉy-minded thoughts' has annoyed you too. Gt"a: apólog'e€ ysur HcnÈùr. iiiiii*l,SrqiRe $tdé,iiiliilili r
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*frs*s* # Frsgraru
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Gerdha reb*#dr!:g F/eaj Fri Jun 13 17:54:15 2ú03 80.r 1s 18.201
I agree totally Wth Suz!. I admit I thought to the "incesf' lhing as a teen, but I discharged it immediately because it had no sense f.úln a *orltè|ling pèrspèctive- \Ale knew about fleedians suwivors, ss even it not espliÈiÈely said by nobody at the end óf èp74, that was the ùnly logícal explanation to ihe reason !v'ìy DÉ&M declde lo go back to Fleed. I was af course surF.ised by the fact thet DF & M leave alone, a d actually stíll remainèd with this big queslionrrark up ta when I staded to interest .!ìyself to productian neles {bì-,l th;s is enother *ory}.
Actarus leaves becaus€ after ep72 he knows &at his planet has come bàck to life and he feels the responsibility to hélp his populatior' to have a future there again. He is the King of Fleed, the news he is alive is spreading around (ep 72 again), desperaté pèople survived as slaves for years need his prèsence - the man wfio ddeated Vega - as a psycnobgical help t* rèbuild their native place. Duke Fleed is a man, but also a symboltoo noq and after the last scene of ep72 Daisuke has nù rflè.e g$tltiftèss fèelings tolvards his population (ooppss. v,lny does TTOTC resuffes every\'{ìere anytime?? LOL-}. Tc -'s rÈbu'ld in fact thè wùrd used by lJman: caì.,{lrm the italian version ;s coneistent wilh atabic. Pay attenticn: we dont knùw holl! ftany ti e has passed by from thè final' baÈle to the goodbye scene. lfs bue flat it seems summer like the beginning of tllè èp. b|Jt from some hints I t€nd ùè think that it takes place nonths if not a year later.
About thé r€ason why DF&M leave alone - which is the REAL problem of ep74 - I have a theory which lays on production notes. lf you look deeply at the énd of ep74, you cùuld notice that the d6ign style is a bit different from the rest of the ep....
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--- if i t ryiil.U .i;tí,:i,f;.ql: ll! ,.,., Agnes, Fti Jutt 13 19:13 ,.j iiiii;ii-ri:;t lr:'tii:iÈnf-_jri). fii;;.fi 1**gii1lfi - Gerdha, Fri Jun 13 21:38 " idiZ;riil...iiji:j-qi.Upi1lJ1ti_!,1"._.,.,. - Stephane nilrfias. .$at Jun 14 03:3(l *qat Jun 14 15:15 " {tLlt,.l:ljii;i1,.,1.t,.:ìfi',:l.l'{g;i.t-li-Erii.:1!,,,..,. --Suzi,
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*-ellirl,aJ-the ?di!: Laas_e_ -!h!$ t-taslj-ssi?nAp*-tsr_$.ì-e-rflcillh jéròrne f liad*? seen yreed it tout other pasl.,, Frì Jr;n f 318:41:56 2N3 21?-198.0.98
Hi Suzi, Sorry for my absencÈ but l'vÈ h.ad a heciic and stresstul month of May. lfs almost over and ifs quièting dèun no\rir.
I never ever considered you "a compiete idiot' as you wrote rt playfully as far as history is concerned. No NO NO. On the cónkary, I must say thet this fot m hss surprised nìe in many \€ys. The crntent of rnany posts is h,ghly iÌ*erestíng snd shours inae'ligence, culture and reesoning qualiti€s ùìat I couidnt have suspected ùo find in a forum dedicated to Grendizer. Eve* if for same \ire might be considÈred a bit loonèy ór c.azy, th;s rèÒrèation {îor it is one. isn't it"J b far frem bèing dull and:t*pid. And we share a hlt here and thays w:ìat a foftiffi is torll
Yo 're right ''tihe* llsu ltrrote that in ep ?3. Maria asked Alcor tú c.ome and sèé hér- But th€ last episode has akalays annoyed me and thats why sonìèhow we didn't understand the same things. Of course the word repopulate is not used nor shculd \À.e assunìÈ that the Fleedian siblíngs were abeut tù BBtei BLrt it ís semehùw straFgE that utiti afid I thùught teh same thiÌg, and I'm sure many rnore understood it that way or at leesl imagined it. The reason I find for myself is as fr:llelirs: 1) \;1b'*ere young and sùÌflÈh€È* a#ecÈed, touched by the perallel love affairs that \d"re developing {MaÍ#Alcor; VenusialDF), but they somehow never reached their climax (not a single kiss, just hints... Maria seèing Alcor hall naked in bed, Venrsia cry-ing on the siCe of lìer ship uftile DF is with Vegalia...i. lf I may use a bcld comparison, in Candy Candy, although she couldn't really realize her love both with the prince and with Terry, the viewer somehow had the explanations for thet. OK lt was e rùrÉntic anifirÈ, but vre had our explanatiùns snd the tears and thÈ rornanc'e #th it. Wrth Grendizer : NOTHING'
2JSi::ce ve vere youag and innocsnì, LCL, br-È neverlheless expecting something more....maturè in the characters' developments, we had to imagine scmething to fil in the gaps with rvhat *as had in front ol us : the television empty after the end úf the anìmel Tfle ending v',:as quid{ in à way- I rernember beìng sad, even cryìng although I unuldnt admit it or shaw iL A Ìì/Erld had ended for me wlìen I saw the last episode of Grend'zer. We mustn't torget that the anime was aired every lrreek, r!",eaùing that \ìre had to 'rràiÈ 7 days bebre urabhing the next one. This givès ample iirr,e tor speculation and ímaginatiofl. a compiete dilferent approach than the one we have today. We have the VHS {even if their quality is not perfecl ftine 'fsate shc,vding signs ùf near destruction-,-) and yle analyze thè anirne, we dissèct iL \Ale coundn't at the time. \4b were ín ;t, l;ting it, not wib:essing it. Th*f s wtty 'ne had somehcùv ts reach lhe plausible conclusion : $nce they both lefr tfieirtrue love on Earth and even if the la[er could come and visitthem on Fleed, it Eìeant that they upheld their positions as Fri*ce gnC prlncess, now Queen and king èf Flèed {botir parents are deadli as the most important and put their duty sn the forefront of their lives. Therelore ii is plausible lhat, not oniy they u'lsuld rebuild the planet, with the help of other Fteedians pùssibfy, but that somehcli/ they might becsfire húsband ànd wifè.
I leve you wth those consideratians...I have to clean my apertmentl!! more prosaic occupation I guess!
i'{il ii.srt.r3 i'feliitgli,_!i,fi}it;t-Ttt;1. lfUÍ - Suei. Fri Jun 13 23:59 {ri íirf. ij-ilf.',fi li{ri', J*rstre, $at Jun 14 S0:21 - '15:5a " lli_t:e-.s-qi ,;it=ìt-ilt l:,i;;i. tlf*-il*fii;ir.ú,,Hi *-Ìj!1.#i ,rr.:1g1jÌf;. Suzi. Sat Jun J 4 * jeréme,- it_r{',+lt r},rrq5È:i.t_. * ij::,*li":i-ii;al fli1."*flli}-t - Sat Jun 14 21:32 " tÎ iiiij* fitìtij1.,tilt3t i;-l ,o-.:+:"#,:1*j.r*il_::il - Gerdha, $at Jun 14 20:31
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lf I rray barge in ... Fri Jun '13 1ftJ3:ú7 2ù03 ,\,|14/l .tn{ ,l,l1
.." .iust very briefly ({,'\rork even on a sunny Saturday).
As Jerome has índícated, the French versión dùes not slate "repopulate" bul '?èconstrucl'. I thínk Phenícia says $omething like "ón va pouvoir t6u! resànsùulrè' {paraphrase, not quotationi, and since we're talking abo*t imprèssions, the "ince€t bsue'*e*rer srossed ìny mind at:he tirne {l vcas vèr1l yau*g, *i[ ;-]] nff laler {lwEs prebably "to'o cld" when I saw the anime tfìe second time round .-)).
The first lime I encountered this interprelation was on a rnailing list like this forum, aiong side'lokes" about Actarus and Alcór tighling atjèut vrtro $És going to f**k Venusia behind some bushes- Needless to sey, I didn^t like this very much at alf . Bolí: Venusia and Phenicia \rere ab.iectilièd, and somelìow I found these 'Uiscussions" rnore than "offensive": I percèived boÈh girls as being framed in a "{ap'ed" position {and perhaps a litlle, myself with them}-
Sounds "prudish", I know, b t it \ffas unpl*asanl, and I discarded the idea without thinking of any possible historical i*ler rets*ons - nea culpa :-)))
To contribute more constructively though. I never do bted that Actarus and PhenicialDF and Maria were going to round up s rvivers fro.n Fleed and perhapa from other planets and "|ebuild" a nand socieb/ on the now regenerated plÉnet Fleed.
I agree with lv&at you say about DF's symbolic value, Gerdha, end I think that even before he nÉnaged to overcome his trremy, DF u,as Ìnarked out as a hope to. eÀrerybody e!se, including recs other than Terrans and Fleedia*s. To forray into TTOTC ùÉ.rítory, the French vèrsiùn suggests that the siÌizens of Ruby slarted rebeliing because they heard rumours that SF \rrss still altve. ls thb true of othèr vèîsi6nÉ also? lf so, the question as to whèthèr DF and M are going back to "repopulate' Fleed may be relegated to where it bélongs: prep$beÈÈent concerns and que$lons that $ie ssmehowlsemetimès all shared in sone wey, and wi:ic* as adults we turn intó'lúkes", laughing at óur former "innocent' selves. :-))
* " lLrti.liiirf .lqipi?{t,tì.i:i..jrt *li;:-i'ì eyÌ_rJij1fi Gerdha. Fri Jun 13 ?1:35 ù ;*:ttf $tepha*e Dunras. Sat Jun l4 03:3(l l','iill:,+l i{i*li,1.i;,1oi:,:..:-:.:, - " ]*.-'*' i"'lU;;iai:ltt-tli ],il?îl!ttii4,,,,.- - $uzi, Sat iun l4 15"i5
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Gerdha findÈrg r+as+*s fo epZ4 erdrogr Fri Jun 13 21:38:25 2003 80.116.'19-178
\ ,bw, wlìat a day, TCT (old & naar membersiJ are all together again at the coffeè machine! Ah, how such interesting percsÌs o e can rneèt afi these Court corridors..- À_n
Yes, Agnes. in the italian edition loo Ruby populalion started the revolution because they get news that Duke Fleed vas still alive {ifs nút said expficltely, but I think ifs c}eàr also "a}ive and f'ghttng'}- I stated the symbolic valuè thinking als} to that partícular.
LJh, this turunì is bette. lhan tlùse railing list, don't ycu think? :-)I Next timè a Supid 'loke" like that surfacÈs in a mailing li*, please inform me, Iwill be glad to participae in it adding my prudish opinion too. You kncnr what I mean, right?:-)
Jeror:e, I understand what you sey. I have no shame to confess I cried lar anger at the end of ep74, I was morè than upset ttm that final. I heard rurlours tor weeks àbout thè ending, and the most recurring one v/as that DF u,ould havÈ died killing Vega- V\tell. at firsÌ I found tfie reai final wo.se ftan lhat hypothesis. Vy'hy leavíng alone Íf Cosmospecial trras bui't exactly to alloìi, ea.thlingrs tÈ lly ift the deep space? I bang r*y head on the vvall for 25 years, bgether with all Grendizer fans I know Ep74 final has no sense giving wtrat is sard in ep73, wtry givíng lhe l;e to ;tsèlt after 30 minutes of airing? ltlihy, why, wny?
This ts thè real big queslbn of ep74 for me, and I found b mysell an ansuer only few ronths ago knowing a bit nÈrè praduction notes. The scriph^ffiter oi both ep73 and ep74 isthe same (the greatTamura), so the mntradic'tion has really no sé se at atl- But I tlsticed that thÈ goùdbye scene seer6 b bè desigfied fróm a diflerent team respect to the rest sf the episode {see the different srtyle}. 5o an idea sprmd to my miÌld.
I think the end cÉ ep74 uas anothet - and la$ - rnatter of disagreement bety!'een Toei and Authors, ss it sufbred for a la$ minute change. And oncè again, Kaji Kabuto could be the reason of the struggle. Toei could n6t allow Koji Kabuto to leavè Earth, in order ts allo\Èt nnre Mazì*ger series to be done in the future- gut irom a storytelling perspèctive, Hikaru lèaving alonÈ Earfi and Koji remaining in Japan rnnuld have been nót g6d- Both or nobody should have left Earth. Duke Flèed SHO LD hsve come ba6* deÍniùely to FlÈed, nol only because this stsryline had been built throughaut the whole anirne up to the 'bg bang" ol ep72, but becaùsè thè Grendizer story should have come back really wlrere it started: Uchu Enban Daisense. Ftom eF1 to ep74: camiag tull cir6lè, fróm UED beginning to UED ending. Of course the remon why DF leaves Earth in UÉD is diffelant trom Grendizer, but the concept anyy\ay there: he hare to fly a/vay with his róot. Maria should have gor:e with her brother becau$e the rÉcurring therne of's her character had always been her nastaigia and desire to visit her iìaì"ive pbce. Af}d Grendizer had room anly for tlvo persons.
This is maybe where the (in)famous rumour about the krss bet*een Daisuke and Hikaru mmes from: unless Gaffeau is rlad, I bÈfeve ifs possible that a different ending could have been óeiginally dsrised {and Nagai maybe refened b it talking about 'tender love sc*nes"). I am talklng about planning, I don'l lhínk a similar scene has nèver seen the light, but it could have beeB a proposal- As a nratter of {act Koji and Hikaru flying ù} Fleed witJì Cosmffipeclal was the ending subtle prepated in ep73, ifs vely clear frsr a stfirytell'ng perspeGtivè. Sa sornething must have happened during the dsrelopíng phase of ep74 in my opinion. Prabably the Autho€ accepted the final thinking to a possible sequel, but as Nagai stopped $Érking wiih Ts€i for good after a few months due to the Gaiking copyright issue, !l\.e are stìll waiting lor Dukè Fleed's comebèck to Earth. {on this last natter, I read an inEresting interviev/to Federico Colpi a couple of weeks ago, I willtry to find the link *gaini.
point proves I out TH'S lS ONLY A {crazy ^_4} THEORY OF MINE, I have no of it. But as you know, I believe Grendizer is a gíant puazle, and I fove playing ts try ta recùnstruct ít. i-lùpe thís rnakes sense tor somebody else than me. ^_^ Gedha j-))))l
. Mte-al_gt:d.V,gttU$iS_...,.. - Stéphane Dumas, Sat Jun 14 03:3ù ,. àt:"d-.V-g$$Éiíè-... * Suzi, Sal Jun 1415:15 trfi-idj;jÈt " http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=102381 ;article=6734;title=Goldorak;date_query=1 ... 13/08/03 Goldorak Pagina 1 di 1
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Suzi lfit.i?èrd féeJrngs, Jqoitle-, but Frì Jun 13 23:59:15 2003 210-6,232.5
'Queen and king of Fleed (both parents are deadl) as the most important and puttheir duty on the forefîont of their lives. Therefare it is pla$sìble that. *st oÉly they $brrld rebuild the plane.t with the helF o! oth€r Fleedians pùssibly, " I cant resist cúmmeffing on ihis. As iar as I understand Mcnarchy, DF wÌll become King because he is the heir fo the thronè, his sisier I'tlarìa will renain a princess, Znd in liné untess hè produces kids ot his or.fi. lsn't that hcn,r English, Japa*ese, JsrdarÌian r:pfiarchy'tvarks? Therefcre Maria wili nct becorne Qdeèn unless her b:other has dìed before having a child cf his own.
"but that somehow ihèy might become husband and wiie." I refrain flì}m cormenting sn that for me marriage is s very sacred relatianship, it entaib love. respect, understanding, Bupport, cùmftilment and fidèlity. 1AE all know that DF loves Hikaru, and Maria loves Koji, so can you piease explain to me hoÀA/ do expect their marriage !o be srccesstu, witiì prsduciftg sc€ndals in their newty grewing envirs*aent? Secandly DF's personality is not ifimoral or lusty, I can't imagine how you guys thought of him dorng that. I cafi uhdergand thaÈ as teÉfts, moS of the bcys were i* love with itlaria, and for many bo she uras their dream girl, and r,€ybe &ey reflected lheir own personal desires in their perception ol ep 74, focusing oniy on who is going to be the one close to her sverloúking tÌe fact thal there mìght be cthers alìve or thàt even Koji himself might go to Fleed one day .....Ok! fiis a crazy thought and I ca î elaborate any further but my question is vrhen you guys thought sf thìs r/ere you subconsciously projecting your ovltt desires? I guess I have g*iìe tso far and ì be.tter súop bef*re I clfend anymore pecple.
I did not lal€ the endi*g *fthe anine eil,\er. l&cught itrlras ab rpt and unexplainably hasb/- And I cried too, butfor reasons other than yours. As a child I heard *ry friends talk about the ending as they saw it on an airing period that I missed Even though I knew the end yèars bèfóre I sa'Jr it, i cried and I hras disappointed in a way, but I understoad ihat DF had to reurn with his sister to fulfil! their duùes cn Fléed just as they did on Earth. And as for why Hikaru and Koji remained an EaÈh, I havè a very good xplanatior': Íar S:at sther tha productio* notes. Míne is based an psy€hoanalysis of the cha''actets and their rols.
I may share it with you one day...... Y{iell, l've tE gà ri bed nc**,. I drdnt exacÈy have great days lalely and I an getti*g tired.
,;.1 ',:.:Rista Re$Fpnser: ,.1,- .;Return to. Artides
* Irìr_. il_th{Ífl}.cjni.., Jerflme. $a.t Jun 14 S*:21 - 'i5:54 rì if|tr (ìtiiiii:r Suzi, Sat iun 1 4 ijijil+.Ltri :;iritilt lgt i.rlLit l=i:t*'-iilri. i .i*iiitigl - " ii.,,+i:r*r.f:Lt#r$iÌÌìC -"Ì tj.:,*,!i;;tji;+ti irrt!*t:i-tl.ti - jerSrrre. Sat Jun 14 21:lì2 " ii lit1,jtf".{i!íi.ii:lid:i_!l=.f;ill t1,{ll"$ iililiiiit# - Serdha, Sat Jun 14 2tl:31
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Jéròne rrAl $?bfète.. Sat Jrn '14 úù:21:25 20t13 212198.0.96
Maria surely remains a prince€sl, sorry. it $és tie morning and I wasnt quite awake!!il i had in mind the fact that she sornehftv 1ùsuld marry her brother!! And in those arranged marriages, love has nothing to dolthafs somehow the porplem, it aiways has. lt'!vas only a question oi lineage and family business.
Please be s*re tl€t I d* *ot endors€, thsse poìnts of vi€r# : I iusl merely tried i* be the devìfs atsrney as ! mentìonned it. Maybe indeed and your point is made, we were subconsciously in love with Maria therefore we cound't allow her to be ìnvcived vr'ith Xojì therefcre beìng wì& her brcther rrras scmehoar a mcre c.onvenient escape to cur :antasies??? Possibly maybe...
r rlost a'Aesp.onsè :, {' ., p6gn o nrtictes ,, ]
* FJfl;+tri{i ;nÌij&ueyi.:-iijli'{íì_ri: tjl:trll, }tl i-!tit..i"itl:,.tiilp,, - Suzi, Sat Jun 1415:54 ,.r i|.:t:,1i4 t:_ urírÌtriÌ.ili +Ì il:iÉj!;j.,ìi,1,iff1.{tl:l{.il,liilf * jerórne, Sat Jun 14 V1:32 ..' ,:., ^ ,.,1 ír ì'F;ier {lerdha, Sat Jun 1a 2Ù:31 f,:'.,..,UJ-l.lfiii;'ili=iti:.tl:l${í -".li,i'Jí{1:J. -
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Suzi PJeèse don? óè l.le l}!yl's aúonqyJ Jtronîe Sat Jun 14 15:54:46 20S3
0k Jerome, I am re.ally getting tird of this discrssiorì biJt there is anúther poiI* that I ì$aht to fnakè_ ln all the Japanese cartoons lte \ Natched there was a Élrong emphasis on the brotherhood of the heros, in its utter npaning ai brcfherly lsve, cate and friehdship- lncest thernès were nsrèr thè.è, the emphasis was always on "brotierlt'' relationshlp in its p*rest fir*rs. Aí-Ze*be.g b anùther gocd example of this brotherly retetionship and its eùdÍng ís very similar to Grendizer. lnced be&leen siblings might have occJlrred in Royal European families. but hes it ever occurred ín Japanese Royal famiiies? Aiter all GrendÈer is o*ginalìy Japanesè, and the authcrs vvere Japanese, and any writer r.ìrould somèh.i.l retlect his/her culiure in lhear $úrk Bosides. I dón't think ihat affaîgèd sibling marriages existed in the monarchy of Fleed- There lvas nota single hint in the anirrle, DF *ras ff*Ì*g tú marry Rubina , remmber {an arranged rmrr}age to a Foreign princess), so how could thére be an alranEed narriage betÉreen him and his sister?
Please JeroFìe don'l bè the Devil's attroney, evil ne\rer wins, if we defend it lre are only going to ruin ourselves. You and tfle sthers might have been intluenced by yóut $story, culture and tanatasies in inErpreling ep74, but you have to remember Grendber is Japanese-
There is nolhing wtong with him tèaving \ruith his sister ta Fleed, thís lhis expected eutGùme after the defeat of Vega and acknowledgement that Fleed was still alive and habitable. Yes, \,\è hoped that they vvould either stay on Earth with their loved ones or take them ùo Fleed with them. But Greîdizer like many cther JaFanese cartoons had an open end with a very realistic theme. The time was not right for DF ts Èake Hikaru and l{oji with them. He had tú gó tó Fieed first, see ì"hst have be€oyne of it- He had te establish his kingdèm lírst, rebuild his country with his peoplÈ, ensuring survival and prstection for them before thinkíng of his own pleasuÍes by beíng with the woman he loves. Whén he's donè that then he will return to bring Koji and Híkaru to stay with Útem. Come on guys, think, \,vhal were you going to do if you were in his shoes? Drag your moet beloved lríends to thÈ unknown, withcut calc:llating Ùìe tÉks? Yes, he knew that Fleed wes still alive, but did he know wlrat uras really there? lAbre lhere Vegans on his pianet? Hcw bad was the radiation there? etc.. He has bsen very cautìous abaut their saiety during thè yèars cf \ear, and certainly he is not that reckbss to dc sórfiething like that. I personatly think that as disappointing as the end might seem it is the most logical thing in the wlìoie anirne, and is greatly cornFliant with DF s cering responsible Ferscna'ity. ll#i$HÉ,iiei$#$i#ili ii4 jri$j{* É$
Ssi Jun 14 21:32 ' li r44lé.t!1€t{i_lg _&_t*gl$l.i€Alglfe!ÍpJ -.iér&ne, ' 4i littl€- ?)t8!ììe_ùt tì!ì..Èp_;--4-**dln$ - Gerdha, Sal Jtn 14 29:31
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Gerdha a ilfie oorrur*eaf a: epî4 èndibg Sat Jun 14 ?0:3j:56 2ùO3 15'1.26.156.233
tgree wlth your vision abo$t ep74 ending completely, Suzi; my hint about prÒduction notes was a sort of "parallel e(plafiation'' to ufiderstand v.iy, an,4iray, rr/e are not told EXPLCITELY what you say.
You have :o admit, Suzi, that after having taken car€ of the story for long {74 episodes: second place still ior the longest rùbÈtic Èní e in history) suddènly the narÉtive approacfr gces'Test and furiÈus'withsut any apparent real need. lt rìauld havè rèquired at least an episode more to lell properly the story of the gcodbyes, and È uould have been amazing- lnstead, in 5 rninutÉs \trìÈ $ee Vega's death and the "au+evoif' scene. lfs strange tr say tJle least, ifs totally unusual for thè Glendizer scripÈrniting a;ìd Tamura is for mere a great stùrytelier- I think really somathing happened in the prod*ction phase that forced the developing team ùo change their plans snd imaginé a different flnal.
I don't say that th€ final we have seen is not consístent, your theory :s m;ne and fiakes sense. But the way it is porùayed is out af Grendizer styfe, and it sharld have beèn instead a clirnax moment for the seriel Thefs vrfiy I suppose (and there are hínts i am ÍghtJ a seríous motivation behind this strenge storytelling choíce. The need to reú-oncile UED with Toei need te have Kóji Kabulo available for rnore stories seems lo me e rational explanatión. Thè open ending vras rnade clearly to allow a seqùel, t*at Nagai's resign from Tflei cantract never rr,ade reality {actuelly, according to Co}pi, a couple of project have been devised also recently, but never sa\À, the light for various problems).
About Venusia & Mizar image atthe end, well-... ah, its so good to find a soulmate across tile globe, Suzi!!! Yeah, the last in:age sf GrèndiEer is a tríbute ts Daisuke & Híka.u's lavs. Please note Duke Fleed ms/ed r€calling Hikàru. W]ìy Mizar is tfiere toÒ? Because the irnage is the same of ep73 (recyci'ng process elready knownj and anyway it is another example ol the m*squerade approach rre have seen throughout the whole anine.
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jéróîìe Jf lvas r??sey a riélc{:baI atfemFf Sat Jun 14 ?1:3?:36 2003 2{2198-0-96
I didn't want te trigger so many issues here. lt was j[st a way of explaining some impressions and feelings that !ì,€ might have felt because of plot holes or flaLÉ or lacks in the anime. lt doesn't mean that somehow wen do endorse that at all as I said it
\Àtat you say ìs comFlelsly cc sisdènt and ccnvincing yet We were all confused by the ending of the anime. Hence the issues raised may sometimes bring conttsirerÈy.
Thafs all I uranted to say. Peace
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Suzì Re: E*d ofslory Sun Jún '15 21:'12:56 20ú3 218.8.232.5
>>>DF and Maria are aliens- Alienq as in : biologically different I tho ght y*u sàid that the mariga ssid tJley u/ère lrom Greek origin, and Greeks belong to Homo sapiens species, i.e. humsns. or donl lhey?
>>>>SJe do*1'kna*F if ccrsangutnity !s an iss.re for Fleedtans_ lf il. was nst rn€ntioned or hintèd for in lhe aníme, tie* È did not èxist
>>>>The idea eaire !o us, we quickly dismissed it before we finally came up with the notion that naybe there are others Fieediaru lsst ín space súrné*,*lere tù mt"ne and jcir: DF and Maria. lf you have really dismissed this idea yor would have not put it in a public forum,^_^!
>>>>ll allùws yóu to be sure ysu'rè nÈt imposing your ounr visíon to others.
As fur as I rer:lember Lltiti77, you HEre the one who ;mpcÈed your vision cf the "incesf' conc.ept when you assumed that aneryone îftought like ycu- And as yo! can see, there are peopie like me and Agnes, who dad not even considèr these froughts lor a split of a seo$nd. S* who is lle one wfro is imposíng his visian?
>>>>lfsjust a cartóon, not a "ho$J to lead your life" guidebook.
Your way of lile rellects how you interpret everything including mcvies and carùoons. l\lo tlard teelings, Utiti77, you are entitled to beliéve ìùiat you Ìnant. I sm nst.iudging or criticising ysu or others, areryone has his/her own way of life. This a îoru!.fl for discussions s6 lÀ*ren trten yótj preseni ssrfiething for disfirssion, please present ìt with stong convincing plool and don't generalise yùur eccentric thoughts es being th€ common belief of all viewers, becaúsé not everyone thinks like yru! iririr iJ
ù l,,Vf tlj.f,ìÌ1l:1;.1'ìll{1r1jl}j, í1tii{;l{i!-,+lt.lt.ti"l -i - utiti77. lVlon Jun 1É 20:32 i-] l"l*i hir:i iirèr:.ti rJLtÌÍ.;';fi -$*zi, Tue Jun 17 rr$:05 ' r':!rij:j{Él}._l{i iiililj,,.iÈtj:i ij}lpt_ijlii i ii"',tlijt itilli. - utiti77. Tue Jun J7 ù2:49
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p_f Get rj_d !h_e ad-s_: !_ease__thi_s_ Dis_eussio_nApp for _$l1 _a manth
utili7T Why can't we just all get along ? Mon Jun 16 20:32:46 2003 213.11.54.156
>>lf it was not mentioned or hinted for in the anime, then it did not exist.<<
That's a way of seeing things. Thank God there are sometimes people who let their minds wander a bit to expand on existing material, or else we'd have only Uchu Enban Dai Sensó to talk about instead of a74- episode series.
>>lf you have really dismissed this idea you would have not put it in a public forum,^_^!<<
Why not ? You can learn a lot from past mistakes. And I don't even consider it a mistake, just a silly joke.
>>As far as I remember Utiti77, you were the one who imposed your vision of the "incest" concept when you assumed that everyone thought like you. And as you can see, there are people like me and Agnes, who did not even consider these thoughts for a split of a second. So who is the one who is imposing his vision?<<
I did not impose anything. I exposed a theory, and it just so happens that I was not the only one here on this forum to have thought of that. Last time I checked, there was me, Gerdha and the other JérÒme. On *might* the other hand, you have overreacted to something that was not originally designed to shock you, even though it did.
>>Your way of life reflects how you interpret everything including movies and cartoons.<<
But the way you interpret movies and caftoons doesn't necessarily reflect your way of life. Thank God ! I've watched countless splatter movies as a teenager, but l've never harmed anyone in my life, thank you very much.
>>This a forum for discussions so when when you present something for discussion, please present it with strong convincing proof, and don't generalise your eccentric thoughts as being the common belief of all viewers, because not everyone thinks like you! <<
This would work fine if we were discussing rocket science or some purely scientific matter. But we're talking about something totally subjective, a work of art, a fantasy story (and fantasy stories are the ones with the largest number of different possible interpretations). Each and every interpretation is eccentric, bizarre, unique. I have the greatest deal of respect for Gerdha's vision of Actarus and his relationship with Rubina and Alize. I have a lot to learn from it. But it is definitely not my vision. So what ? I won't get my panties in a bunch because she disagrees with me. This is not the point. This is about exchanging information and points of view, not trying to come up with some super-explanation that would work for everyone, because it simply isn't possible.
And that's what annoys me the most with this whole "discussion", Suzi : you're getting all worked up about a detail, something which is not even a serious theory, but some stupid joke some French kids (including me, yes) came up with when they saw the last episode of Grendizer decades ago. lt's no big deal, really. That's what I was trying to say in that last post : it's no big deal.
Next time, I'll just post this sentence : "lt's no big deal". That might make things a bit less complicated.
Love,
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