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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 1
1 Special Tribunal for Lebanon
2 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Ayyash, Badreddine, Merhi,
3 Oneissi, and Sabra
4 STL-11-01
5 Presiding Judge David Re, Judge Janet Nosworthy,
6 Judge Micheline Braidy, Judge Walid Akoum, and
7 Judge Nicola Lettieri - [Trial Chamber]
8 Thursday, 26 March 2015 - [Trial Hearing]
9 [Open Session]
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
12 THE REGISTRAR: The Special Tribunal for Lebanon is sitting in an
13 open session in the case of the Prosecutor versus Ayyash, Badreddine,
14 Merhi, Oneissi, and Sabra, case number STL-11-01.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning to you, Mr. Siniora. We hope
16 that you are refreshed.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We, of course, note you're kind offer to
19 keep sitting yesterday, which, I think, showed you have the energy of a
20 man one-third of your age, but we couldn't go on yesterday. So we'll go
21 as far as we can with your evidence today.
22 The appearances today are Mr. Cameron for the Prosecution. For
23 the Legal Representatives of the Victims, we have Mr. Mattar and
24 Ms. Abdelsater-Abusamra. Mr. Aoun is for Mr. Ayyash. Mr. Korkmaz, who
25 is continuing with his questioning, is for Mr. Badreddine.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 2 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Mr. Larochelle for Mr. Oneissi. Mr. Roberts for Mr. Sabra. Mr. Khalil -
2 good morning - for Mr. Merhi. And we have one representative of the
3 Defence Office here.
4 Mr. Korkmaz, you've had, like Mr. Siniora, overnight to reflect
5 upon a number of things including where we're up to and how many
6 questions you think you still have left.
7 Can you give us a little progress report?
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
9 morning to all in the courtroom.
10 Good morning, Witness.
11 The team and myself have discussed this situation. We do not
12 think that we can reduce our cross-examination to less than two days. In
13 fact, we need two days at a minimum.
14 Regarding the number of questions, we are going to try to keep
15 them to as small a number as possible, but there are a large number of
16 items which we would like to have clarified and would like to take
17 advantage of the presence of the prime minister to do so.
18 WITNESS: FOUAD SINIORA [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz [Continued]
21 Q. [Interpretation] Very good. Good morning.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You've heard the good news, Mr. Siniora.
23 Just one observation: Of course, the shorter the questions and
24 the shorter the answer, the shorter the time we spend here, may I say.
25 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Very good.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 3 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. Prime Minister, yesterday we were discussing the extension of the
2 president's tenure, President Lahoud. I would like to put a little
3 question to you. Did Mr. Hariri bring you into his confidence as regards
4 his negotiations with the Syrians regarding Mr. Lahoud?
5 A. I don't really understand whether you're talking about
6 negotiations with President Lahoud? Do you mean regarding the extension
7 of the term? I do not think that there were negotiations with
8 President Lahoud, and therefore I do not know. I do not know anything
9 about this. As for the Syrians, it was within the limits that I referred
10 to earlier on.
11 Q. What do you mean by that?
12 A. I've already said everything I know on more than one occasion
13 during my presence here. I am not aware that there were any negotiations
14 with President Lahoud. As for the Syrians, this is what I heard from him
15 and I have told you about it. I have said everything I know. And
16 therefore, if he was trying later on to find a solution to form a cabinet
17 and the -- his efforts were not fruitful and what happened had happened.
18 Q. Do you agree with me that those negotiations were largely based
19 on a battle of force between the parties? In terms of the extension of
20 the tenure, was Rafik Hariri requesting greater influence in the
21 formation of the government in exchange for agreement?
22 A. This is what I mentioned and what I said. After the cabinet
23 meeting during which the extension has been decided, there was a
24 discussion between him and between a Syrian representative, I do not know
25 who it was but I think it was Rustom Ghazaleh, and on that basis it was
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 4 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 decided or it was said that there will be a new Lahoud. And as I already
2 mentioned, it turned out that this was not true.
3 Q. Yes, indeed. As you just said now and as you said yesterday,
4 each time there was a standoff, Mr. Hariri discussed directly with
5 Mr. Ghazaleh to smooth out the confrontation; is that correct?
6 A. That's right. The Syrians were -- the Syrian regime was playing
7 the role of -- on the one hand and in my assessment, they were trying to
8 keep the two parties apart; and at the same time, they were trying to
9 achieve a rapprochement between the two. So it's as if they were
10 contributing to igniting the fire and at the same time they were offering
11 their services to put out the fire.
12 Q. Are you aware of the answer given by Mr. Ghazaleh at that time,
13 his response to the favour or the request for Mr. Hariri? Did
14 Mr. Ghazaleh not ask him to intervene with the media and his politicians
15 to reduce the criticism of Mr. Lahoud?
16 A. I do not have any specific information regarding the details of
17 every meeting, what happened, what was requested. I don't have any
18 information. I have some information, generic ones, but there were
19 continuous attempts on behalf of Mr. Rustom Ghazaleh to try to -- he was
20 playing the role that was played by any foreign regime and foreign forces
21 in the country in order to make sure that he would still have a role.
22 This is why he was always trying to keep the parties apart and at the
23 same time he was playing the role of the mediator.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, I'd just ask for a
25 clarification. Can you just clarify the time-period for the transcript
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 5 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 in which you are asking the questions and the witness is answering? Can
2 you give us a range of dates for the period you're referring to?
3 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] The period to which I'm referring
4 is the period at which the extension of Mr. Lahoud's tenure was at play,
5 so 2004.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Do you mean the entirety of 2004 up
7 till when the Parliament voted on the extension?
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Well, I would say that there was a
9 background, a context, the questions which I am putting are in relation
10 to the relations between Mr. Hariri and the Syrian regime. In general,
11 my question refers to that general context, but I'm also looking
12 particularly at the period of 2004/2005, the period of extension of the
13 mandate and then the extension of President Lahoud's tenure.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just so that we can be clear, Mr. Siniora,
15 were you understanding Mr. Korkmaz's questions to be directed to you in
16 the period in 2004 up until Mr. Lahoud's extension was voted on by
17 Parliament and then perhaps afterwards?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Now, specifically on the matter of information which you had then
21 or may have had, I'd like to know whether you were aware of the position
22 of the Hezbollah leaders on this matter in autumn 2004? For example, did
23 you know - and this is simply to assist you in providing a precise
24 answer - were you aware that Hezbollah, allies of Syria and
25 President Lahoud, was in support of Mr. Hariri's position?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 6 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 A. First, I would like to say that Prime Minister Hariri met more
2 than once with Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah during that period, and all I know
3 is the results at the macro level. I knew that the meeting went well and
4 there was going to be follow-up, et cetera.
5 Regarding the position of Hezbollah vis-à-vis President Hariri,
6 let me say that Hezbollah never supported Prime Minister Hariri and never
7 nominated him during the consultations, the parliamentary consultations
8 throughout all of the governments that Prime Minister Hariri formed.
9 They never also voted or gave him the vote of confidence at any time.
10 But they were always trying to communicate with him, collaborate, and
11 Prime Minister Hariri was also trying to collaborate with them and work
12 with them at Parliament. So that was the state of affairs.
13 Q. Prime Minister, the Presiding Judge kindly reminded us of the
14 period we're speaking of. In my question, I was referring to extension
15 of the period of tenure. Now in autumn 2004, when there were
16 negotiations regarding the period of tenure of the president, was
17 Hezbollah against Mr. Rafik Hariri, or were they actually quite
18 sympathetic to his position and supportive of his approach and his
19 approaches to the Syrians and his position regarding President Lahoud?
20 There was no contradiction in the positions of Hezbollah and Mr. Hariri;
21 is that correct?
22 A. You are talking about the period during which discussions were
23 underway for the extensions specifically. Regarding the extension, no.
24 Prime Minister Hariri was opposed to the extension and Hezbollah
25 supported the extension. On -- regarding other matters, general matters,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 7 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 governmental issues, of course there were issues that were supported by
2 Hezbollah and whereby Hezbollah supported Prime Minister Hariri and his
3 government and on other issues they were opposed to that.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, just a slight observation. If
5 your question is simply: In autumn of 2004, were Hezbollah supporting
6 the extension of Mr. Lahoud, is that the question? Was that the effect
7 of the question you were posing to Mr. Siniora? My question to you is
8 simply: Is my summary correct? That is, Mr. Siniora, in autumn 2004,
9 was Hezbollah supporting the extension of Mr. Lahoud's mandate,
10 quote/unquote? Is that the gist of the question that you were asking?
11 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] As the Prime Minister said, there
12 was a way of dealing whereby the Syrians would look for a compromise.
13 The question is whether Hezbollah got involved when there were
14 discussions of this type. For instance, if Mr. Hariri was against
15 extension of the president's mandate, my question is whether Hezbollah
16 did not intervene in those negotiations to ensure that Hariri was
17 supported on other matters. I didn't want to be that explicit. I want
18 to see if there was a quid pro quo and giving something to get something.
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'm just trying to speed things up a little
20 bit.
21 My observation is simply this, Mr. Korkmaz: Could you please try
22 and make your questions shorter? If you made your question shorter,
23 limit it to that aspect, get the answer, and then move to the other one,
24 we may speed it up and we may get more focused answers from Mr. Siniora
25 because he -- you're opening a large field to him in terms of his
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 8 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 answers. But if you're after a specific piece of information, it may
2 assist Mr. Siniora, and of course the Trial Chamber, if you just make the
3 question a little bit shorter and more focused.
4 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Very good.
5 Q. Mr. Siniora, do you recall the solemn undertaking which
6 Mr. Hariri took on the 24th of October when he left government?
7 A. I remember very well.
8 Q. In his declaration, did Mr. Hariri criticize or refer to
9 opposition from Hezbollah?
10 A. No. He simply bid farewell to Lebanon. And for that occasion,
11 when he was writing that text, I stopped and told him, "Why are you
12 bidding farewell to Lebanon?" But he insisted on mentioning that
13 expression, and that text does not mention at all any party - neither
14 Hezbollah nor anyone else - and therefore, you don't need my opinion to
15 that. The text is very clear.
16 Q. Very well. Have you read Mr. Karim Pakradouni's work on
17 President Lahoud's presidency?
18 A. I do not remember.
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Is that a book?
20 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. It is a book, Your
21 Honour. It's a book which was written by Mr. Pakradouni, who was a
22 former minister and a journalist, and he wrote on that presidency. It
23 has also been entered on our presentation queue. It is item 57. There
24 we have included an excerpt from that book.
25 Q. As you know, the Ghazi Kanaan -- the so-called Ghazi Kanaan
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 9 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 electoral law, which was applied in the parliamentary elections of June
2 2000, gave rise to the victory of the Mr. Rafik Hariri. Now, in the book
3 to which I refer, it is said that General El-Sayyed, who was in charge of
4 the Syrian regime apparatus, was very critical of the prime minister at
5 the time, Salim Hoss, and others.
6 Now, I'm going to read an extract. I'm going to read a short
7 extract from that book, and I'm going to read it in Arabic.
8 [Overlapping speakers]
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the speaker to
10 repeat what he just read.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do the interpreters have a copy of that?
12 They'd just asked you to repeat what you just read. But do the
13 interpreters have a copy? "Très bien" doesn't mean they have a copy. Do
14 they have a copy?
15 THE INTERPRETER: No, Your Honour.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: How long is the extract?
17 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Four or five --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speaker kindly --
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Four or five lines.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speaker kindly indicate the page that
21 he is reading from.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: [Interpretation] Which page, for the
23 interpreters?
24 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] There is only one extract which has
25 been included in our list of evidence and that is page 179.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 10 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Does that help the interpreters?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. We will follow from the text on
3 Legal Workflow.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. If the interpreters open the
5 page in Legal Workflow, I think we can proceed.
6 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall --
7 Q. "Ghazi Kanaan and Jamil El-Sayyed drafted the parliamentary
8 electoral law for the year 2000. It was known as the Ghazi Kanaan law.
9 Prime Minister Salim Hoss and Minister Issam Naaman strongly opposed that
10 law and they expressed their reserves in the minutes of the cabinet
11 meetings. As for President Lahoud, who is not entitled pursuant to the
12 constitution to participate in the vote, he expressed his reserves
13 initially because the law did not adopt the same standards throughout the
14 Lebanese territory. Therefore, some constituencies were adopted at the
15 level of the district or caza and others were at the governorate level,
16 the mohafaza, and some constituencies were in between the district and
17 the governorate. It turned out later on and Lahoud discovered later on
18 that Hariri was able to convince Ghazi Kanaan who in turn convinced
19 Jamil El-Sayyed. Therefore, the electoral results came and were
20 according to the wishes of Hariri."
21 So in those words, can you not see something that contradicts
22 what you said the other day, whereby the security apparatus was always
23 pitted against Mr. Hariri and launched propaganda across the board to
24 make him fail in his election ambitions? But here we've got words that
25 seem to contradict that. What can you tell me about that?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 11 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 A. First of all, I never read this book. Second, allow me and in
2 all honesty and humbly to say that quoting Karim Pakradouni does not add
3 anything to this discussion. He is speaking based on his own point of
4 view and his own perspective. This is his opinion.
5 Second, it's no secret to anyone that the attempts continued and
6 there were ongoing attempts, in order to curtail the popularity of
7 Rafik Hariri and his role. They were trying to gerrymander the electoral
8 constituencies in every possible way to achieve that. However, no matter
9 what they did, no matter how long they tried, it was also mentioned back
10 in 2004, Rafik Hariri used to say, "Let them do whatever they want. Let
11 them gerrymander as much as they want. This will not change anything to
12 the fact that Prime Minister Hariri was very popular."
13 Now, if you are saying this to imply that Rafik Hariri is the one
14 who used his influence and several means in order to convince Ghazi
15 Kanaan, you are completely wrong. You are completely and absolutely
16 wrong.
17 During the days of Ghazi Kanaan, do you know how many attempts
18 were made in order to undermine Hariri and his popularity and in order to
19 arrest a lot of his supporters and who were close to him? You mentioned
20 yesterday -- or I mentioned yesterday two names, two names of
21 director-generals, and I mentioned what happened to them because of the
22 Lebanese and Syrian security regime during the times of Ghazi Kanaan and
23 President Lahoud. What they did to me, they completely fabricated issues
24 against me and the issue of the Bourj Hammoud incinerator. Wasn't that
25 during the times of Ghazi Kanaan? What you are saying?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 12 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 My answer is no. No.
2 Q. Prime Minister, I have heard you with all ears but I didn't
3 understand a word of what you said. I would make two remarks: These
4 aren't my words. These are the words penned by a journalist, a former
5 minister, who interviewed Mr. Lahoud --
6 MR. CAMERON: I have an objection at this stage.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are worthless.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. But don't tell me that these are my words. These aren't my words
10 at all. All I'm doing is quoting. I'm quoting work done by an
11 investigative journalist who interviewed President Lahoud and put in that
12 book Mr. Lahoud's words, which contradicts what you said. All I'm asking
13 you to do, very simply, is to elicit your view on that.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, you're on your feet.
15 MR. CAMERON: My objection is the manner in which this is being
16 approached with the witness. The witness was asked first if he had read
17 the book, and he had said that he had not read the book. And then a
18 short passage was read out to the witness, and he was asked an open-ended
19 question: What do you have to say about that? And in the midst of that
20 answer, the Prime Minister gave a number of specific examples.
21 Then after that Mr. Korkmaz departed from the theoretical benefit
22 from using a text like this in cross-examining a witness and began to
23 argue with the witness, to say that this is not what's written in the
24 book. And in my respectful submission, that crosses the line now.
25 If Mr. Korkmaz wants to ask the Prime Minister whether he agrees
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 13 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 with what's in the book or whether he doesn't agree with what's in the
2 book, he's entitled to say. But it's not as if these words have any
3 independent evidentiary value behind putting a certain proposition. They
4 are merely a vehicle for putting a proposition to the witness, and they
5 don't have any independent evidentiary value which can be used to
6 cross-examine the witness beyond that, in my respectful submission.
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, you've heard Mr. Cameron. Can
8 we actually take it any further? I think Mr. Siniora is wise enough to
9 understand that when he was shown a book and asked if he had read the
10 book, and he said he didn't -- he hadn't read the book, you read from a
11 book, and he told you the words of the author were worthless, I think he
12 probably understood that it was a book and you were quoting something
13 from a book to him.
14 And once he said that he doesn't agree with it, which he has
15 said, it took a while to say, but at the end he said no, and in the
16 middle he said no, and at the beginning he said no as well, we can't
17 really take it any further, can we?
18 So there is some strength in what Mr. Cameron is saying in terms
19 of just putting propositions to a witness and accepting what he says and
20 moving to the next question. So can we do it that way? It would be much
21 quicker for everyone.
22 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Quite obviously. But my response
23 was on the basis that the witness said that they were my words, but they
24 are not my words. And the question was very focused and bore solely upon
25 the electoral law and nothing further.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 14 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, you're a very experienced
2 lawyer, a man of the world, as is Mr. Siniora. You know, both of you
3 know it's a book. Mr. Siniora says something which you might regard as
4 provocative, you're the lawyer representing Mr. Badreddine. It would be
5 easier if we just moved to the next question.
6 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Siniora, do you think that with this electoral law Mr. Hariri
8 could have obtained the victory that he did obtain previously in
9 June 2000?
10 A. This is a theoretical question. I think Mr. Hariri, following
11 that data, he said this in brief. He said, "Whatever they do with the
12 electoral law, whatever they do with the districts and the constitutions
13 and their structure, we will succeed." And he used to say that also in
14 the year 2000. This is to show that on the one hand there was this
15 constant attempt by the Lebanese security services and President Lahoud
16 to reduce the influence of Rafik Hariri and cut him down to size, but
17 this was to no avail and witnessed as the success of President Hariri.
18 Any law that was going to be adopted would have led to the success of
19 Rafik Hariri because you can't manipulate the votes of the electors the
20 way they were trying to do it.
21 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Prime Minister, was the
22 Prime Minister going to be the only one to be affected negatively by the
23 law? Wasn't there going to be a large section of the Lebanese who were
24 going to be affected negatively by the law? And I mean by this the
25 Christians.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 15 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course this manipulation, which
2 doesn't stem from unified standards, would have led to an advantage being
3 to one party over another. When there are unified standards that apply
4 to everybody, the law would be fair to everybody. This is why
5 President Hariri was saying, "Let us adopt single standards, unified
6 standards," and the manipulation was meant to undermine Rafik Hariri and
7 to undermine the opposition to the Syrian presence in Lebanon, those
8 opposed to the Syrians in Lebanon. This was -- they thought that this
9 would help them support the presence of the Syrians in Lebanon, and it is
10 on this basis that they drafted the electoral law.
11 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] I mean by this, why do you
12 consider that this law was targeting President Hariri only and not, for
13 example, another Lebanese faction?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just told you, Your Honour. I
15 just told you that that law was neither in the interests of
16 President Hariri on the one hand and nor in the interest of those who
17 were opposed to the Syrian presence in Lebanon - and I mean by this, the
18 Christian leadership.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Prime Minister, now you stated to the UNIIIC investigators during
21 a meeting on the 11th of October, 2005, that Mr. Hariri had been the
22 architect of the extension of the -- of Elias Hrawi, the former Lebanese
23 president, his presidential extension in 1995, to avoid Mr. Lahoud's
24 coming to power? Now would you stand by that, what you stated to the
25 UNIIIC's investigators?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 16 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 A. I don't have the statement before me for me to read it again. I
2 wish, if you had it, if you could put it at my disposal.
3 Q. Of course. Of course, Prime Minister.
4 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] This is document ERN 310886,
5 presentation queue 11. And I seek to take you to the following extract.
6 I can even read it out to you if you wish.
7 JUDGE AKOUM: Which paragraph?
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: There are no paragraphs. But again --
9 Mr. Korkmaz, again this is the point I raised with counsel earlier. It's
10 a series of bullet points in an investigator's note dated the 13th of
11 October, 2005, which says that on the 11th of October, 2005, a UNIIIC
12 investigator met with Mr. Fouad Siniora. And then it says the following
13 background information was provided to Mr. Siniora to the UNIIIC, and
14 there are three and a half pages of bullet points. It's not a statement.
15 It's a collection of bullet points. One line -- one- or two-liners of
16 not necessarily flowing sequentially of a summary, so to speak, of what
17 an investigator has recorded Mr. Siniora as saying here.
18 It's not a declaration by the witness, it's not a statement, it's
19 not signed. So we proceed on that basis, please.
20 Judge Akoum asking you which bullet points you're referring to.
21 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] This is on page 3 of the
22 memorandum, which is ERN 310886. It's right at the top of the page on
23 page 3. Right at the top of the page, Your Honour.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Commencing with the bullet point:
25 "The Syrians wanted at that time already Emile Lahoud as Lebanese
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 17 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 president."
2 Next one:
3 "Mr. Hariri was - even live on TV - fighting for the extension of
4 Mr. Hrawi."
5 Okay. It's now on the screen in front of you, Mr. Siniora.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, there was
7 an attempt by General Emile Lahoud at the time to become president of the
8 republic, and there were Lebanese positions defended by President Hariri
9 and others who were opposed to General Emile Lahoud becoming president of
10 the republic because they believed that he was not qualified to shoulder
11 such a responsibility.
12 Therefore, there was a -- at the time President Hafez Al-Assad,
13 who had not decided on the matter, and President Hafez Al-Assad was
14 playing an essential role there, and eventually in spite of the fact that
15 the amendment of the constitution was not a popular thing and that the
16 extension of President Hrawi was also not popular, but there were two
17 options there: Either to amend the constitution as well so that
18 President Lahoud to become president of the republic against the
19 constitution; or to extend the mandate of President Hrawi which would
20 also have required an amendment of the constitution. And it was decided
21 that the lesser of the two evils was to extend the mandate of
22 President Hrawi, and this then was the position of President Hrawi in
23 supporting the extension of President Hrawi's mandate [as interpreted].
24 And everyone will know that President Lahoud considered, before
25 he became president of the republic, that there was someone who had
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 18 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 wasted three years of his life when he could have been a president of the
2 republic, and he compensated for this later when he was -- his mandate
3 was extended by another three years, but he kept this within himself.
4 Deep down in.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: On the question you asked, Mr. Korkmaz. The
6 question a few minutes ago was actually:
7 "You stated to the UNIIIC investigators during a meeting of the
8 11th of October, 2005, that Mr. Hariri had been the architect of the
9 extension of," I think it, "the mandate of Elias Hrawi."
10 Now, that's the question you asked. The bullet point actually
11 says:
12 "Mr. Hariri was - even live on TV - fighting for the extension of
13 Mr. Hrawi."
14 It doesn't actually say there that he was the architect. I'm
15 just trying to work out -- were you suggesting to Mr. Siniora that
16 Mr. Hariri was the architect, or were you suggesting to him that what he
17 said was correct, that Mr. Hariri was on TV fighting for the extension?
18 There are two different concepts, being the architect and fighting live.
19 I'm not sure which question Mr. Siniora was answering. Can you just
20 clarify that for us? That's you, Mr. Korkmaz.
21 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
22 I was referring to the word "architect." I was using this word
23 advisably; namely, he was behind this request for extension of the
24 presidential mandate.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: But that's not what was in the bullet
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 19 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 points. That's my point. The point in the bullet points was said that
2 he was on TV fighting live for it. There is a distinction between
3 someone going on television saying something and someone being the
4 architect. There is no problem with you putting to the witness that
5 Mr. Hariri was the architect, but I'd -- I do have a problem with you
6 putting the source for it as these bullet points which just simply don't
7 say that.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Well, this is the reason why I was
9 asking the witness to shed light, to shed light on that very point,
10 because I also wanted to establish whether Mr. Hariri had - yes or no -
11 voted in favour for the constitutional amendment to enable the
12 presidential extension to go forward.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these brief sentences
14 here, I read "fighting." In Arabic, it would mean something different to
15 what it would mean in English. In Arabic, it would mean that he is
16 trying as best he can, but in English "fighting" sounds as if he was
17 resorting to arms, but these are two different things in their essence.
18 This is not a witness statement. These are extracts taken from
19 conversations.
20 To go back to the matter, yes, President Hariri was trying as
21 best he could and democratically to obtain an extension of
22 President Hrawi's mandate in order to avoid having to amend the
23 constitution and having President Lahoud as president. And this is his
24 democratic right. He was convinced that if he was before the two
25 options, his option was to vote for President Hrawi's extension.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 20 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 The second thing, to say that he's the architect of the
2 extension, no. President Hariri represented a force in Parliament which
3 was influential, which was popular, which enjoyed a lot of other things.
4 This is true. But he could not do -- bring somebody to the presidency of
5 the republic if he was not helped in that by others which would have led
6 to the amendment by two-thirds of the Members of Parliament at least so
7 that he could achieve this result.
8 This is in brief and in -- very precisely what happened so that
9 we don't give a significance or a value to words that were not intended.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do you remember what language you spoke when
11 you spoke to the investigator? Was it -- did you speak in English or did
12 you have a -- was it in Arabic with an interpreter? And I appreciate
13 it's almost ten years ago.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know whether
15 we were -- whether there was an interpreter, whether we were speaking
16 English. But in any case, I have -- I wanted to clarify the use of this
17 word "fighting" because in English "fighting" means using weapons, and
18 President Hariri doesn't use weapons. He doesn't even own weapons. So
19 he was exerting all the efforts and using all the democratic means given
20 to him by Parliament, since he is a Member of Parliament, in order to
21 contribute to the re-election of President Hrawi for an extended period
22 of time.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I was just asking you whether you'd used
24 English or Arabic. But it's okay.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I really don't
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 21 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 remember whether this happened in English or in French. I really don't
2 remember -- or in Arabic, sorry.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. We'll move on. But just for your
4 information, "fighting," literally, in English, yes, does mean what you
5 said, fisticuffs or weapons, but it is one of these words in English with
6 other meanings. It can be more nuanced. It can mean advocating strongly
7 or taking someone's corner. It doesn't mean you have to punch them.
8 Mr. Korkmaz.
9 I think you know that.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Definitely.
11 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
12 Q. So, Mr. Witness, can we say that the problem that Mr. Hariri was
13 labouring under with regard to the extension of President Lahoud's
14 presidential mandate wasn't a problem going to the constitution. Rather,
15 it was about political opportunity or any animosity with regard to
16 Mr. Lahoud, a kind of clash of personalities, if you will.
17 A. President Lahoud and President Hariri were not comfortable with
18 each other, for all sorts of reasons and for different approaches,
19 different mentalities, different ways of doing things between those two
20 people, and this is normal. Nobody can control this. Because of these
21 differences between the two personalities. But I can assure you that
22 Prime Minister Hariri tried as best he could and didn't spare any efforts
23 to find a way to cooperate with President Lahoud in the interest of
24 Lebanon. He didn't leave a single stone unturned in order to find a way
25 to calm him down, to be -- by being nice to him, by trying to lure him
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 22 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 over, all sorts of means he used. But every time he would conclude that
2 there was nothing to be had, no good results could be had.
3 Two different minds, two different ways of looking at the -- how
4 to govern Lebanon in the interest of Lebanon, of the Lebanese, of the
5 independence of Lebanon, of freedoms, of the respect for the rights of
6 the Lebanese and their freedoms, and also how to interact with people.
7 The way they interacted with people was completely different between
8 President Lahoud and President Hariri. Therefore, his opinion was, when
9 he was commander of the army, that this way of doing things is not
10 conducive to Lebanon's interest in the future. And when the decision was
11 taken, and it was taken by the Syrian brothers, and they put pressure on
12 everybody, including President Hariri, to elect him in 1998, of course it
13 was natural that the Lebanese witnessed that transformation in the
14 leadership which moved from President Hrawi to President Lahoud. And I
15 think that all the indicators, the quantitative indicators, as they are
16 called, be they related to security, to economics, to the country at
17 large, to finances, all this shows that transformation in the presidency
18 of the republic from a regime that was a civilian regime to a military or
19 to an army man in charge of the presidency of the republic -- I don't
20 want to enter into the details, because anybody can follow the
21 developments in 1999/2000 and what happened then in Lebanon.
22 Q. Prime Minister, was the extension of President Hrawi's mandate,
23 which Mr. Hariri wanted, did that not create a precedent for the
24 extension of President Lahoud's mandate? Why was it not -- that which
25 was possibly constitutionally in the case of President Hrawi was not
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 23 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 possible constitutionally in the case of President Lahoud?
2 A. I think that I've answered clearly, and I said that in the two
3 cases there was a need for a constitutional amendment. Therefore,
4 undoubtedly, this was something that was not very popular among everyone.
5 With regards to the Commander-in-Chief of the army, there was a need to
6 amend one article of the constitution which prevents anyone, any official
7 who has a high-ranking position in Lebanon from running for presidency.
8 And when the constitution was drafted, the legislator was aiming and had
9 in mind three major positions in the Lebanese republic, and this is why
10 it was clearly mentioned in the constitution; and that is the governor of
11 the Central Bank, the head of the Higher Judicial Council, and the
12 Commander-in-Chief of the army. These are very prominent positions, and
13 the constitution -- those who drafted the constitution did not want the
14 constitution to be amended in order for the interest of the people who
15 occupied these three high positions, in order to avoid that from becoming
16 a habit. So everyone who would come to this position would use their
17 position in order -- as a tool to become president of the republic.
18 So in both cases there was a need for a constitutional amendment,
19 and in my personnel opinion, this is not something that is popular and
20 this is wrong. And I believe that the Lebanese people - also in my
21 personal opinion - the Lebanese people want the constitution to be
22 safeguarded and respected and they do not wish to see additional
23 constitutional amendments during the elections of the president.
24 Q. Prime Minister, do you agree with me when I say that the
25 amendment of the constitution to extend President Lahoud's mandate, did
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 24 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 not have at all the same scope as in the case of President Hrawi's
2 mandate? Why was that? Is it not the case that Resolution 1559 was
3 the -- was in exchange for extension of President Lahoud's mandate?
4 Now in constitutional terms, it was said not to be
5 constitutional.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, I think you're going to attract
7 a very long answer with those particular questions. Could I just ask you
8 to reformulate them. And if you have a proposition and you wish
9 Mr. Siniora to agree with it, why don't you just directly put the
10 proposition to Mr. Siniora and see whether he agrees with it or not and
11 take it from there.
12 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you consider that amendment of the constitution as regards
14 extension of President Lahoud was the cause of Resolution 1559?
15 A. By looking at things and how happened, with regards to
16 Resolution 1559, there were attempts to postpone the adoption of that
17 resolution to see whether there would be the extension of term or not.
18 However, my dear counsel, this is something -- Resolution 1559 is an
19 international resolution. Prime Minister Hariri had nothing to do with
20 it. This is not something that we can discuss here. This is an
21 international resolution that we have nothing to do with, and this is due
22 to relations between President Assad and some of the major players at the
23 international level.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: But, Mr. Siniora, the question was: Did you
25 regard the amendment as causing Resolution 1559. If you think not, you
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 25 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 can just say "no."
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe it contributed to it, but it
3 was not the main factor behind it, in my opinion.
4 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I'm going to be more direct on this. If President Lahoud's
6 mandate had not been extended, would Resolution 1559 have been taken?
7 A. I wish I was the representative of one of the superpowers, then I
8 would have been able to give you an answer. I don't know. I don't know
9 whether they would have gone ahead with it or not.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You did ask the question, Mr. Korkmaz. I
11 could have predicted that answer.
12 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You were not behind Resolution 1559 - not you, as Mr. Siniora,
14 but your parliamentary group. Was it not behind the resolution?
15 A. I wish we were at the level of your expectations, that we had the
16 capacity to do something like that. No.
17 Q. Prime Minister, I will move away, for the time being, from
18 Resolution 1559 in connection with the constitutional amendment.
19 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prime Minister, so you do not
20 agree with the witness who testified before us, MP Ghazi Youssef, who
21 linked that resolution with the extension of President Lahoud's term
22 while he was testifying before the Court?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not have before me the text of
24 what Ghazi Youssef said, but I did say that this could have contributed
25 to postponing the resolution. So perhaps the Syrians could have
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 26 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 negotiated. Maybe if they showed some willingness to change their
2 position. Again, I am not in a position to speak on behalf of any of the
3 superpowers. This is a resolution that was adopted by the Security
4 Council and it was adopted with the approval, consent, or with the
5 disapproval of some of the members.
6 So you really think that President Hariri was capable of
7 influencing 15 members of the Security Council to adopt Resolution 1559?
8 Really, I think we are accusing -- we are addressing really big
9 accusations against Rafik Hariri and they are completely unfounded.
10 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] I am just clarifying the issue. I
11 am not accusing anyone. I just wanted to see whether that resolution was
12 linked to the extension or not.
13 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Prime Minister, do you think
14 that the contribution of Prime Minister Hariri and his "fight," as it was
15 described, for the extension of President Hrawi's mandate and in order to
16 prevent Lahoud from becoming president of the republic in 1995, do you
17 think that this left its mark with President Lahoud and made him
18 resentful towards Prime Minister Hariri and perhaps that was the
19 beginning of the bad relationship between them which continued later on?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps. I mentioned earlier on,
21 perhaps he had some kind of resentment. Maybe that's what he was
22 feeling. But I would like here to remind of some poetry that I know, and
23 it says: Those who are angry in their nature cannot reach higher
24 positions. And I would expect from President Lahoud when he became --
25 when he took office, I would have expected from him to take up that role
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 27 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 and really embrace all of the Lebanese in their entirety, whether they
2 were supporting him or opposed to him. This is the role of the president
3 of the republic. He should take on board and accept all the Lebanese.
4 And on the first day, the first day when President Lahoud took
5 office and Prime Minister Hariri travelled outside of Lebanon, raids
6 began and rumours started circulating. We started hearing that X will be
7 arrested and Y will be arrested, including myself - including myself. Of
8 course, they were trying not simply to target me personally but they were
9 trying to target Prime Minister Hariri through me. From the first day he
10 took up his office, and Dr. Salim Hoss at the time was still trying to do
11 the parliamentary consultations, we started hearing rumours that people
12 will be arrested, including myself. There were other rumours saying that
13 I left the country and went to Brazil.
14 And on that day in Parliament, I was asked -- I was asked, and
15 there was a lot of media, and someone asked me, "You're still here? We
16 thought you were already in Brazil, that you ran away because of the
17 Lebanese security agencies that we were just talking about." And I said
18 at the time, and I am reminded of the words of Mahmoud Darwich, who was
19 speaking of his pain, and who said, "My country is not my suitcase and
20 I'm not going anywhere." So this is what we were witnessing at the time.
21 And in spite of seeing President Lahoud come and embrace all the
22 Lebanese, what we saw is the exact opposite and we saw the result of his
23 practices and how that reflected later on at the national level, at the
24 security level, at the political level, at the economic level, and
25 financial levels, and all that we can see that in the quantitative
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 28 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 indicators. You can simply look at that to find out the results.
2 So in my opinion, I am not -- I don't know what goes on in the
3 mind of President Lahoud. I cannot claim that. But I think that it is
4 the responsibility of the president of the republic to embrace everyone.
5 That's my opinion.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: As I understand it, the Council of Ministers
8 met on the 30th of -- sorry, August, 2004, with the draft law, and the
9 Security Council passed Resolution 1559 on the 2nd of September, 2004.
10 And I'm talking about the draft law to amend the constitution. And the
11 constitution was amended, I think, on the 3rd of September. I have got
12 the dates wrong, Mr. Cameron?
13 MR. CAMERON: My recollection is -- of the testimony, that the
14 meeting in Damascus was on the 26th. The Council of Ministers meeting
15 was on the 28th of August. That's what I think the sequence was.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. That's right.
17 That's right.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. I was a couple of days out on
19 the exact one. But the sequence I'm talking about is the Council of
20 Ministers vote - the exact date wasn't important - followed by the
21 Security Council resolution on the 2nd of September, 2004, followed
22 subsequently the day after by the actual vote to amend -- or two days
23 later to amend the constitution. The only relevant part here,
24 Mr. Cameron, is that the Security Council vote was in between those two
25 events; the Council Of Ministers meeting, the recommendation, and the
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1 actual vote in the Parliament.
2 Now, the resolution was, of course, sponsored or introduced by
3 France and the United States and there were nine votes for and six
4 abstentions. A few moments ago you said that -- of course, you're not
5 one of the representatives of the permanent five members of which three
6 voted for the resolution, two abstained, but we've also heard evidence
7 that Mr. Hariri had very good relations with President Chirac of France,
8 and a couple of days ago we saw some video footage of Mr. Hariri in Dubai
9 meeting former President Clinton and also Dr. Albright which suggests
10 that he had close relations, with at least the Democrat side of politics
11 in the United States at that point.
12 I think Mr. Korkmaz was asking you about the connection between
13 the events; that is, in the context of Mr. Hariri being close to the
14 French leader and possibly the Americans and those two permanent members
15 of the Security Council sponsoring a resolution, which was several days
16 after a draft law was recommended by the cabinet to which Mr. Hariri was
17 opposed, Mr. Korkmaz, I think, was asking you whether there was any
18 connection. And I've laid out a bit of introductory background.
19 Can you comment on, as briefly as you can, whether as in your
20 view or knowledge there was any connection between the cabinet decision
21 which was going to lead to the amendment of the constitution, if the
22 Parliament accepted it, and Mr. Hariri's relations with the sponsors of
23 the UN Security Council resolution?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that
25 President Clinton was president at the time, if I'm not mistaken. I
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1 think he was former president. He was a former president.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes. Yes, and I prefaced what I said by
3 saying former President Clinton, former Secretary of State Dr. Albright,
4 and his proximity to at least the Democrat party side of politics. I'm
5 quite aware that President Bush was in power at that time. I'm just
6 saying that was the -- we've had evidence that he was close to
7 President Chirac, there is no dispute about that. But the evidence
8 before you was that he had been seen at a meeting in Dubai greeting
9 ex-President Clinton and there was a meeting with Dr. Albright. That's
10 as high as I was putting it. That was the background context.
11 In light of those two factors and the dates I've read to you, do
12 you know of any connection?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I would like to repeat
14 that international relations, Your Honour, are not that simple and they
15 are not as simple as the Defence counsel is trying to show, that these
16 pictures were taken in Dubai, he met with former President Clinton, and
17 that was a tool that he used in order to change the mind of the entire
18 international community regarding Resolution 1559.
19 I think that he is kind of mocking people's intelligence that
20 way. I think, Your Honour, that, yes, it's true that President --
21 Prime Minister Hariri was very close and was friends with
22 President Chirac, but I don't think that Prime Minister Hariri is quite
23 capable of convincing 15 members of the Security Council - permanent and
24 nonpermanent members. I think that this was a decision that was made by
25 the international community.
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1 Therefore, any insinuation that Prime Minister Hariri was behind
2 Resolution 1559 - directly or indirectly - is falsely accusing
3 Prime Minister Hariri. And --
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, just a correction to the
5 transcript. There was nine votes in favour - Angola, Benin, Chile,
6 France, Germany, Romania, Spain, United Kingdom, and the United States.
7 There were six abstentions: Algeria, Brazil, China, Pakistan,
8 Philippines, and the Russian Federation. And I'm just reading that from
9 the Security Council -- the record, the press release issued by the
10 Security Council afterwards. So we're only talking about nine, of whom
11 two were the cosponsors. So they had to get seven other votes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, even in international
13 resolutions the choice that is given to members to say "no" or to abstain
14 from voting or they can vote in favour. When a member does not object,
15 they are saying that they are somewhat in agreement.
16 So Resolution 1559, although there were nine who voted in favour,
17 the six others did not entirely object, and that means that the
18 international community in general was in favour. And anyway, what is
19 important for me here is those insinuations that Prime Minister Hariri
20 was the one who drafted and made and fabricated Resolution 1559. Again,
21 I would say I wish that we were that strong and powerful. I wish we were
22 that powerful.
23 Therefore, I think this is false accusations laid against
24 Prime Minister Hariri, and I think that it is useless to continue
25 discussing this. This is a resolution that was passed, it's gone, it's
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1 an international resolution.
2 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. A point of clarification, Prime Minister: Did the situation
4 Security Council deal with this matter ex officio or at the request of
5 Lebanon? And when I say "Lebanon," I am referring to your government.
6 A. Are you saying that Lebanon, the Lebanese government, presided by
7 Prime Minister Hariri and whose minister of foreign affairs was
8 Mr. Jean Obeid, that the Lebanese government is the one that asked for
9 that resolution? No.
10 Q. So for you it was the Security Council which took the matter up
11 proprio motu? Who seized the Security Council of this matter?
12 A. I am not a member of the Security Council to answer you, but I
13 think that there were discussions at the time between France and the
14 United States, that they were the ones sponsoring this resolution.
15 Q. I asked for that point of clarification following on from the
16 intervention by the Presiding Judge. Of course, the Lebanese government
17 did not officially seize the Security Council. The Security Council was
18 seized at the request of Mr. Hariri or other persons, members of the
19 government, who made deputations to other governments to bring the matter
20 before the Security Council, and this is what I want to know about. When
21 I say "seized themselves of the matter proprio motu or at the request of
22 others," this is the point I am trying to get at. In other words --
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: According to the press release of the United
24 Nations, it said:
25 "Requesting the Council to withdraw its consideration of that
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 33 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 resolution before the vote, Secretary-General of the Ministry of Foreign
2 Affairs and Emigrants of Lebanon, Mohammed Issa, said that friendly Syria
3 had helped Lebanon to maintain stability and security within its borders.
4 Syrian troops had been deployed and redeployed at Lebanon's request, and
5 had contributed rebuffing the radical reactions emanating from repulsive
6 Israeli actions. Also, the matter was purely internal and related to the
7 upcoming presidential elections in Lebanon."
8 That's -- I'll reading from Security Council document SC/8181,
9 which is the press release issued on the 2nd of September, 2004,
10 immediately after the resolution was passed, which makes it quite clear
11 that Lebanon was asking the Council not to proceed with voting on it.
12 I just want to make that quite clear so the record is clear that
13 that was the situation.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Why did the minister of foreign affairs seek
16 that the resolution be withdrawn and not voted upon? The Lebanese
17 minister, I mean.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This resolution was asking Lebanon
19 to do more than it was capable of. That was the position of the minister
20 of foreign affairs who expressed, on behalf of Lebanon, the position -
21 the official position - of Lebanon.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And what was Mr. Hariri's position in
23 relation to that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that the minister --
25 the Lebanese minister acted upon his own initiative only.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 34 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That's one of the shortest answers you've
2 given. Can you give me just one more line?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there are very
4 important matters such as this one. The Prime Minister, of course, is
5 concerned to a large extent, as well as the president of the republic.
6 I'm not denying that at all. And the minister of foreign affairs,
7 Mr. Jean Obeid consulted with Prime Minister Hariri in this regard, and
8 when he expressed his position, he was speaking on behalf of the Lebanese
9 government at the time.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right.
11 Mr. Siniora, it's that time for a break. We will adjourn for a
12 short period.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.31 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Please continue, Mr. Korkmaz.
16 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
17 So let's pursue with the cross-examination. I don't propose for the time
18 being to put questions about Resolution 1559. We'll have an opportunity
19 to turn to that subsequently.
20 Q. Now, you averred during the oral evidence that you gave
21 yesterday, that with regard to Hafez Al-Assad, the main support for
22 Hariri was Khaddam, Hikmat Chehabi, the general, and General Ghazi
23 Kanaan. Now, according to you, were they in Syria in that particular
24 time among the leadership circles, those pitted against Mr. Hariri --
25 well, if there were any such people and who were they?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 35 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 A. To begin with, I didn't say Abdel-Halim Khaddam and Hikmat
2 Chehabi and Ghazi Kanaan were supporting President Hariri. I did not say
3 that.
4 Q. Well, that's strange.
5 A. I said that Prime Minister Hariri had contacts with General Ghazi
6 Kanaan, Brigadier-General Ghazi Kanaan, because he was in charge of the
7 security and surveillance system in Lebanon and they were in permanent
8 contact. I didn't say at all that he was supporting him. Very often, he
9 was against him. And he was hostile to him. The same applies to
10 Abdel-Halim Khaddam and Hikmat Chehabi. He was in contact with them, and
11 they were also acting as middlemen between him and President Hafez
12 Al-Assad. But these two people represented the Syrian regime, the Syrian
13 Arab Republic, and they were acting as a go-between between
14 President Hariri and President Hafez Al-Assad.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, it would help us if we got the
16 dates. You're referring to the time when, I assume, Mr. Hafez Al-Assad
17 was president and Mr. Hariri was prime minister or another period?
18 Because Mr. Hariri was prime minister between 1992 and 1998 and Mr. Assad
19 died in 2000. So if you could just precise -- which periods were you
20 referring to in your answer Mr. Siniora, and I just ask Mr. Korkmaz to
21 please specify the dates and periods in any questions.
22 So, Mr. Siniora, which period were you referring to? Just give
23 me the dates, please.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let us divide the periods. Between
25 1992 and 1998, President Hafez Al-Assad was at the head of the leadership
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 36 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 in Syria definitely but also his opinion would prevail in Lebanon as
2 well. In the last two years, and for no other reason than the illness of
3 President Hafez Al-Assad, things were beginning to move towards
4 President Bashar Al-Assad who became president in the year 2000. Ghazi
5 Kanaan was there before 1992, and after 1992 until the year 2002, when he
6 left his post and then became head of the -- and then Rustom Ghazaleh
7 took over from him as head of the Syrian intelligence services in
8 Lebanon.
9 President Hariri was in touch with all these people because of
10 the nature of circumstances prevailing in Lebanon and because of his
11 leadership, and he was dealing with this leadership which was represented
12 by the Syrian presence in Lebanon. The role played by Mr. Abdel-Halim
13 Khaddam and Mr. Hikmat Chehabi when President Hafez Al-Assad was in power
14 was a role that they had to play but the ultimate decision was with
15 President Hafez Al-Assad. But after a while, that role played by
16 General Hikmat Chehab and Mr. Abdel-Halim Khaddam was dwindling, but they
17 were still there and President Hariri would get in touch with them and as
18 well with Ghazi Kanaan.
19 In all these totalitarian regimes, there are pulls of power and
20 influence that come into play. Personally I never had any contact with
21 any of these people, and in reality I can't even distinguish their faces
22 if I saw their pictures. For example --
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I think you've answered my question about
24 what the dates were.
25 Mr. Korkmaz.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 37 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Just something you hadn't answered: Who were the people against
3 Mr. Hariri within the Syrian regime?
4 A. I was just about to mention this and so I will answer this
5 question.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That's another question. The first question
7 was the dates and the second one is Mr. Korkmaz's. Just so we can
8 distinguish between the two different concepts.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly. As I said, I was not
10 in contact with the agents of the Syrian regime. And honestly, I don't
11 know any of these except the people I mentioned before you today. I used
12 to hear about the presence of somebody like Abu Wael, Mohammed Nasif, but
13 in reality I never met with that person, ever, and I never met those
14 other people who were influential and who were in positions of power and
15 influence in the Syrian regime. And I thank God that this was the case.
16 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you very much, Prime Minister. I would like now to address
18 the question of the governmental influence. You made comments upon this
19 yesterday. I'm still dealing with this 1992-1998 time-frame. You said
20 in your oral evidence yesterday or the day before yesterday that the
21 Syrians and their allies had curtailed the influence Mr. Hariri, limiting
22 it to three or four ministerial positions. Is that the case? Was that
23 your evidence yesterday or the day before?
24 A. Yes. If we look at the sequence of governments beginning with
25 1992 in Lebanon until the government that resigned in 1998, yes, there
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 38 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 was a change in the way these governments were being formed and a
2 downward trend, and President Hariri used to think that the people he was
3 choosing would play a role in the revival of Lebanon.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Again, in the interest of time management,
5 which is yours as much as ours, the question was: Was that your evidence
6 yesterday or the day before.
7 Now, I'm not sure why you were asked that question because we all
8 know what your evidence was yesterday or the day before. You could say
9 yes, that was your evidence. And I think Mr. Korkmaz wants to ask you
10 something else.
11 So can we accept that you agreed that that was your evidence, and
12 Mr. Korkmaz is now going to move to another question.
13 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. The question is this: In the period 1992-1998, is it true that
15 the Syrians and their allies had confined Mr. Hariri's influence to three
16 or four ministerial positions, retaining all the other ministerials in
17 their gift; yes or no?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. CAMERON: Notwithstanding the answer to the question, that
20 was not the witness's evidence. The witness's evidence yesterday was
21 that in 1998 that was the case. Mr. Korkmaz has asked the question
22 between the years 1992 and 1998, which prompted the very reasonable
23 response from the witness trying to explain that the fact that the number
24 of ministers grew less over a period of time.
25 If the question had been framed in 1998, that might well be
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 39 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 susceptible to a yes-or-no answer, but it's not appropriate for my friend
2 to ask for a yes-or-no answer in describing a period of six years, where
3 the evidence was not susceptible to a yes-or-no answer.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron has just made a -- Mr. Cameron
5 has just made a point ...
6 Mr. Cameron -- it's the cocktail party effect. What about this
7 one? No. Is this microphone working?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Message from the interpreters, the microphones
9 are working properly. I just wonder whether it's a problem with the
10 transcript.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: My microphone has magically turned itself
12 back on again somehow. Thank you for that. Where were we? Yes.
13 Mr. Korkmaz, Mr. Cameron has just made a point there. It's
14 partly my fault because I hadn't gone back to the transcript and my
15 recollection isn't quite as clear as counsel who is -- who has --
16 Mr. Cameron was more prepared to interject there than I was and quite
17 properly so. He's made a point about accurately framing the question.
18 Have we finished with the question and answer to your
19 satisfaction, as properly framed that it was only in 1998 that you were
20 referring to yesterday?
21 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, I was homing in on the
22 1992-1998 framework. This is the framework that corresponded to the
23 presidential tenure of Mr. -- well, where Mr. Hafez Al-Assad was in
24 power, but going to 1998 more specifically, because he talked about 1998,
25 the question did, indeed, drill down to the year 1998.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 40 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The answer being "yes," do you have a
2 question?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, President Hariri did
4 not form a government in 1998. His government resigned in 1998. The
5 last government that he formed, that President Hariri formed, during that
6 period was on the 11th -- I beg your pardon, on the 7th of November,
7 1996, and it resigned in 1998. But in 1998, he did not form a
8 government.
9 You're talking about a government from the 7th of November, 1969
10 [as interpreted], to November 1998. Yes, this government -- in this
11 government, the number of ministers who were allied to President Hariri
12 was less than it was in the previous government.
13 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Prime Minister, thank you very much for that clarification. We
15 were talking about the last government under Mr. Hariri over the
16 1992-1998 time-frame, and then the last period that you're referring to
17 is 1996. We agree with that? Very well. Now in that particular
18 government, you saw three or four ministerial positions. Well, I'm just
19 seeking a clarification in relation to what you said in previous
20 hearings. That's all.
21 A. I didn't understand your question.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: He's not the only one, Mr. Korkmaz. Could
23 you -- if you could rephrase it. We all make the same mistake and
24 realize, all of us, that we should have asked it another way. I do it as
25 much as anyone.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 41 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm grateful,
2 Your Honour.
3 Q. Prime Minister, the Prime Minister has just clarified that the
4 last government is of 1996, and I'm making reference to that 1996
5 government. Therefore, the number of ministerial positions that you had
6 power over, if you like, or you had influence over determining who would
7 fill that position was limited to only three or four; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Very well. But for all that, don't you think in respect of these
10 four ministerial positions that you shouldn't add the ministers allied to
11 Mr. Hariri who had direct control over other ministries? And here I'm
12 talking about Mr. Jumblatt as an ally and Mr. Berri, and this totals 17
13 ministers in favour of Mr. Hariri within that government; is that right?
14 A. I think there are exaggerations. If you want to compare things,
15 you don't compare with one just ministry. You have to compare -- or one
16 cabinet. You have to compare them with all the previous ministries to
17 see how the numbers are diminishing. To say that our ally is Nabih
18 Berri, this --
19 Q. Prime Minister, I do apologize. I'm talking about this
20 government, that was my question. You're saying three or four ministries
21 and I'm saying that with the allies it really totals up to 17. Is that
22 right or not?
23 A. This is not true. It's not true. Because what you consider as
24 an ally is not considered by us an ally to that extent. When I count the
25 ministers who are allied to President Hariri, there are one, two, three,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 42 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 four, five, six.
2 Q. I don't know what you're referring to. Would you mind reading
3 them out to identify them?
4 A. President Hariri, Omar Mesqawi, Bassem El-Sabeh, Hagop Demerjian,
5 Bahij Tabbara, Fouad Siniora.
6 Q. And the other Members of Parliament? Forgive me, the other
7 ministers, the other ministers harking from Mr. Berri's and
8 Mr. Jumblatt's parliamentary groups, weren't they allies as well?
9 A. Very often we wouldn't agree on things.
10 Q. Prime Minister --
11 A. What will it change to anything?
12 Q. But that doesn't change anything.
13 A. I think that that those who were allied to President Hariri were
14 not more than six people.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, you've suggested 17.
16 Mr. Siniora has said 6. I'm not going to suggest splitting the
17 difference but there is a genuine difference between the two of you. So
18 do you have another question based on that.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Would you confirm the fact that thanks to the Syrians and to this
21 regime allied to Lebanon, pretty much the entire monopoly of nomination
22 to the civil and military administration among the Sunnis were in the
23 gift of Mr. Hariri? It was Mr. Hariri who could decide on who was
24 appointed?
25 A. No. Not at all. In that government, Farouq El-Barbir. Yes.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 43 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. Forgive me, Prime Minister. I'm not talking about that
2 government. I'm talking about the period, the time-frame during which
3 Mr. Hariri had control, if you put it that way, to form the government,
4 when he was in office. Wasn't he given the monopoly of assigning senior
5 civil servants to the military and civil administrations?
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You're referring to whenever he was
7 prime minister, the different periods, yes?
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not true. The first government
10 that he formed included Hassan Ezzedine. He was a Sunni but he was a
11 Syrian nationalist.
12 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I'm not asking you to give me names. I just want to know,
14 whether yes or no, this was a domain which was preserved for Mr. Hariri.
15 A. I gave you an example to prove the contrary.
16 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Korkmaz is asking
17 about senior civil servants and not ministers.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the administration? You're
19 talking about governmental offices? Yes, it is not necessarily -- he
20 does not necessarily have the monopoly. He is a prime minister and
21 therefore not all the civil servants at the time were -- he did not have
22 the monopoly in appointing them, no. And I do not have in front of me
23 right now a schedule, a list of all the senior civil servants. But as
24 far as I can remember, and I'm sure, he did not have the monopoly in
25 appointing them.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 44 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, does the prime minister have
2 the theoretical, at least, right to fire senior civil servants, heads of
3 department and so on? Or to put it more sympathetically, to replace them
4 with someone else?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not at all. No, no. Neither
6 the appointment is the complete prerogative of the prime minister, and he
7 does not have complete authority in firing them at all. In order to
8 appoint them, this would require -- for senior civil servants or
9 category 1, as we say, this requires the approval of the cabinet and the
10 decree should be signed by the relevant minister as well as the president
11 of the republic and the prime minister.
12 And for firing any civil servant, this would require a decision
13 by the cabinet and a decree signed by the relevant minister in addition
14 to the president of the republic and the prime minister.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: So that means that the prime minister or any
16 of his or her cabinet ministers could propose the hiring or firing of any
17 of those civil servants and the cabinet would vote on it?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. So the decision does not
19 belong to the minister, but he can make the suggestion.
20 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Prime Minister, my question was not in relation to the
22 appointment or termination of appointments. As you know, Lebanon is a
23 confessional country where each community is represented by a leader, a
24 chief, and has a voice, a voice in the nomination and appointment of high
25 civil authorities. My question is: Was it not the case that Mr. Hariri
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 45 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 had a quasi-monopoly on this? Yes or no?
2 A. No. And the reality is, for your information, a great deal of
3 the senior civil servants would go to get the approval of the Syrian
4 security regime; and therefore, they would become like protégés and they
5 would be sponsored and supported by the Syrian regime and they would be
6 imposed by the Syrian security regime.
7 Q. Prime Minister, I'm going to move now to another question in
8 relation to the Lebanese public debt. Now, you are probably the
9 best-placed person to give us some finer details on this, given that you
10 were minister of finance. Could you tell us what was the sum of the
11 Lebanese public debt in October 1992? Approximately.
12 A. It was equal to $3 billion.
13 Q. And in 1998?
14 A. I do not remember the exact figure, but it was maybe around $24
15 or $25 billion.
16 Q. And November 2000, when Mr. Hariri returned to power, what was
17 the level of the debt, the public debt, then?
18 A. It was more than 32 billion. I mean, again, I don't recall the
19 exact figures. If you want, in the afternoon I can give you the exact
20 numbers. I can make some inquiries and give you the exact numbers, the
21 exact figures of the debt in each one of those years. But again, what
22 you are trying to say? Let me know. Tell me.
23 Q. I am looking for an order of magnitude, no more. In 2004, when
24 he declined to compose a government, what was the level of debt then?
25 A. I do not wish to answer now, but in the afternoon I can give you
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 46 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 the specific figures. I do not remember the exact figures, how much was
2 the debt at that time, but I can give them to you in the afternoon
3 session. I can give you specific figures.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, I assume you have the figures
5 there. If you have the figures, why don't you just suggest them to
6 Mr. Siniora? It might jog his memory. I think they are publicly
7 available.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was intending
9 to do so for 2004.
10 Q. Would you agree with me that the figure was 42 billion,
11 361 million Lebanese pounds?
12 A. Are you talking about 2000 or 2004?
13 Q. 2004.
14 A. Maybe, but I can confirm in the afternoon. This won't change
15 anything. Please ask your question.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I was just making a dollar symbol in the
17 sky. Can you convert it to dollars for us?
18 THE WITNESS: 28 million to $28 billion.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] 28 billion, 200 million.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You were referring to 2004, weren't you,
21 Mr. Korkmaz? A simple "oui" or "non" would suffice.
22 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes. But there is an error in the
23 transcript. It's 28 billion, 200 million.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: But he said it in English, not French. He
25 said 28 billion, 28 million. Mr. Siniora, you said 28 billion, didn't
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 47 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 you, in English? I heard you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. When the counsel was
3 mentioning the figure of 42 thousand billion in Lebanese pounds, that was
4 equal to $28 billion US.
5 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Now in connection with this figure, Prime Minister, do you agree
7 with me that the capital corresponded to 12 per cent of that amount?
8 A. I am happy that you are mentioning this because this issue, this
9 topic, has always been discussed and used as a tool to imply and
10 insinuate to --
11 Q. I will allow you to comment on this, but I simply want to know
12 whether the figure of 12 per cent - yes or no - is correct? I'm going to
13 give a follow-up question which may save you from giving us an elaborate
14 explanation. Is 12 per cent indeed the amount which was the principal?
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, just before you answer, for the
16 non-economists here - I studied at university but it was a long time
17 ago - what do you mean by "capital"? I know you're a professor of
18 economics, Mr. Siniora. What do you mean, Mr. Korkmaz, by "capital"
19 which is what we got translated in English? Are you talking about gross
20 domestic product or something else?
21 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm speaking about the
22 capital which was borrowed by the state.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. So it's 12 per cent of the debt.
24 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] 12 per cent of the borrowed
25 capital.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 48 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Counsel, since you are talking
2 about money, the debt that was that of the Lebanese state in the year
3 1992 was $3 billion. According to the figures that you are mentioning,
4 you mentioned that it reached $28 billion, and I will confirm the figures
5 in the session this afternoon. You said that that figure was in 2004,
6 right?
7 With some small calculations, you want to say and imply that
8 $3 billion was the figure in 1992, and Rafik Hariri increased that debt
9 to $28 billion in 2004. That's what you're saying.
10 Without taking into consideration that this $3 billion, if
11 nothing was done, nothing at all, the amount in itself would have reached
12 $15 billion because of the interest rates. So I want to be clear and
13 honest, if we are talking about finances, we need to be specific and see
14 how the public debt is accumulated.
15 Public debt is accumulated when there was a continuous deficit in
16 the budget. This continuous deficit either is limited to past interests
17 or includes an additional deficit that is accumulated to the interests to
18 the previous debt. So this is quite normal and I just wanted to be clear
19 because you are treading on a careful ground, and we need to be -- we
20 need to agree on how we understand this financial situation.
21 Go ahead, please.
22 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Prime Minister, so you do confirm the 12 per cent? Yes or no?
24 A. The percentage of the debt at the time compared to what it became
25 later on without taking into consideration the accumulated interest, yes,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 49 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 it would be 12 per cent.
2 Q. Perfect. Thank you, Prime Minister. So if the capital borrowed
3 was the equivalent of 12 per cent of the public debt, then the
4 accumulated interest due is 82 per cent of the public debt?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, 88 per cent.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. This is why I explained, I
7 explained to His Honour there are two reasons for the accumulation of
8 debt. You are coming up with wrong conclusions.
9 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Prime Minister, you said that you agree that 12 per cent was the
11 borrowed capital. Then the rest -- I'm not asking why, how. I don't
12 know why you are anticipating upon what I might want to know. What I'm
13 saying is that the accumulated interest on these state borrowings were 88
14 per cent or amounted to 88 per cent of the public debt. Yes or no? We
15 will talk about the whys and wherefores later.
16 A. I answered with a no, capital no, because these are not only the
17 accumulated interests. I already explained that. No.
18 Q. Prime Minister, what was the interest rate at the time and that
19 was invoiced to the Lebanese state? Do you recall?
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, even a professor of economics
21 and -- we're going through a very interest economics tutorial at the
22 moment, and a former minister of finance for many years, I'm sure, cannot
23 tell you the interest rate. It varies by the day. You know that. And
24 he was the finance minister for many years. So you really have to be
25 specific. And it might be more helpful if you just say to Mr. Siniora:
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 50 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 In June 1998, it was 18 per cent or whatever. I doubt he'll remember.
2 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Well, if I were to tell you that it was 20 per cent, would you
4 agree with that? Could you make an utterance for the transcript? 2004.
5 And you confirm?
6 JUDGE AKOUM: And on which currency? The Lebanese lira or on the
7 dollar or -- on which currency?
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And in which month? It varies from day to
9 day.
10 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] The Prime Minister answered that
11 everything depends on the level of the debt undertaken and, of course,
12 depends on the currency.
13 Q. The borrowings were in Lebanese pounds, yes or no,
14 Prime Minister?
15 A. No, not only in Lebanese pounds. No. Let me again explain to
16 you the situation. The interest rates at the beginning of the 1990s and
17 before Hariri became prime minister reached 28 per cent in Lebanese
18 pounds, and Lebanon did not have a debt in foreign currencies unless when
19 it came to bilateral agreements with Arab and international funds.
20 Lebanon did not have a treasury bonds in foreign currencies and in the
21 US dollar.
22 Prime Minister Hariri's main concern and my main concern, as
23 minister of finance at the time, was to work on decreasing these interest
24 rates. And if you want, and if I can, this afternoon, or I can send you
25 later on a plan that shows the development in interest rates and how we
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 51 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 succeeded in reducing these interest rates, be it in the Lebanese pounds
2 or for foreign currencies. Therefore, that was the situation at the
3 time.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, is this going to get relevant
5 in the consolidated indictment at some point, the interest rates on
6 Lebanese borrowings in whatever year?
7 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is part of the
8 testimony because we are discussing the context of the matter. And I've
9 returned to this because the Prime Minister previously referred to it,
10 stating that when Mr. Hariri arrived, he made improvements to the
11 financial situation in Lebanon. I would like to obtain greater
12 transparency on that and have further clarification on that, and then
13 afterwards each party will draw their conclusions from the testimony that
14 the Prime Minister gives.
15 I haven't completed my questioning and perhaps things will become
16 clearer when I have put my final question on this particular point.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. Well, we're waiting for this
18 killer question with great suspense.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. So for the benefit of the transcript, I would like to confirm
21 that the average was 20 per cent, Prime Minister?
22 A. No. You are talking about an average of 20 per cent. Average of
23 what? Over eight years? An average over one year, one month? What you
24 are talking about, specifically? Are you just talking in general and --
25 Q. Excuse me. We have spoken about the debt as at October 2004, the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 52 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 date on which Mr. Hariri left. You gave me the sum of the public debt.
2 We have tried to break it down. 12 per cent was the principal, the
3 borrowings, and 88 per cent was accumulated interest, and together this
4 was the public debt.
5 Now, regarding the interest rates, I put it to you that the
6 interest rates were at 20 per cent. You nodded "yes" at the time, and I
7 then asked you to confirm it for the transcript. That's all.
8 A. I did not nod agreeing and saying "yes." Sir, sir, in the world
9 of finance, things are not dealt with like this. If you want to discuss
10 this topic, I can give you specific information regarding every single
11 item. But if you want in a nutshell for this testimony, yes, if you look
12 at the structure of the Lebanese public debt, how it was structured, more
13 than a third is the old debt in addition to the interests. The other
14 third or a little bit more than that is due to the deficit resulting from
15 the electricity sector, and the rest is due to the deficit -- the overall
16 deficit regarding the entire expenditure of the state. This is the big
17 picture in a nutshell, if you want.
18 Q. Well, then if it's not 20 per cent, what was it?
19 A. There was an interest rate in the Lebanese pound which was
20 determined -- it was practically determined not by the Lebanese
21 government nor the Ministry of Finance. It was determined through the
22 Central Bank in the issuing of treasury bonds, and these treasury bonds
23 were issued by the Central Bank for a period of three months, six months,
24 12 months, and three years, and afterwards they started issuing them for
25 five years. Every period of time had different rates and prices. The
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 53 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 prices started, when Prime Minister Hariri came, at around 28. Then they
2 were reduced to 18, then 12, then 10, and now at 7 or 8 per cent.
3 But this situation, it depends on the time period. You cannot
4 just take it in general and say: What was the average over a period of
5 20 years, what was the interest rate? You cannot ask the question like
6 that and you cannot use interest rates like that.
7 Q. Prime Minister --
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Judge Akoum would like to clarify.
9 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Is there an affixed interest rate
10 or is the interest rate -- does it vary from one currency to the other
11 and varies according to the situation and a number of factors?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It varies from one currency to the
13 other, and it varies depending on the duration, and it varies according
14 to the circumstances. In a country like Lebanon where there are several
15 incidents and -- be it political or security or economic, you would find
16 that the issuing of treasury bonds in Lebanese pounds would fluctuate
17 depending on the monetary, political, and security situation.
18 So the first lesson in the field of statistics is the following.
19 They would say, you put one hand in warm water and the other one in cold
20 water and you would say that the temperature is an average of 30. So
21 this is what the Defence counsel is talking now. He's explaining to us
22 how the interest rate is calculated.
23 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Prime Minister, the question which I put to you was very clear.
25 Very clear. At the date at which Mr. Hariri stepped down, you had
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 54 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 accounts, you had the budget, and I would like to know from you what was
2 the level - the interest rate level - applied by the banks at that date?
3 Was it 20 per cent? If it was not 20 per cent, give me a different
4 figure. If you don't not know, say "I don't know."
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, can we just clarify.
6 Mr. Siniora just said the interest rate -- there are different
7 ones than the ones he was -- I think the benchmark he was using was the
8 treasury bond interest rate at a certain date. Is that what you're
9 referring to?
10 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I was referring to the interest rates applied on the loans by the
12 Lebanese banks.
13 A. Definitely the interest rate in October or November of 2004 was
14 not 20 per cent. Definitely not. Now, how much it was during that
15 period, perhaps at that time it was around 9 or 10 or 11 on the Lebanese
16 pound. I don't remember, but it was around that amount. And that was
17 after a major achievement that we made after the Paris II Conference.
18 As for the interest rates for foreign currencies, they were
19 always linked to two things: How is the interest rate on foreign
20 currencies for the borrowings of Lebanon. We used the LIBOR standard or
21 index which is very well known all over the world. So it depends on the
22 capacity of the strongest nation economically to borrow money. And we
23 also take into account the risk factor in Lebanon, which fluctuated
24 between 4 per cent, 4.5 per cent, 5 per cent, that was depending on the
25 circumstances. So this is regarding the interest rate at the time.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 55 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. What was the usury rate in Lebanon at that particular time?
2 A. What?
3 Q. The usury rate in terms of the bank lending related to the
4 question that I put to you a moment ago.
5 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you mean by "amortization,"
6 because these terms that don't exist in the financial world. When you
7 are talking about amortization, it deals with fixed assets, it relates to
8 fixed assets.
9 Q. Prime Minister, now I'm not talking about depreciation or
10 amortization. I am talking about the interest rate that is deemed
11 legally as a usury rate?
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do you mean the rate of interest charged
13 above current market rates? Is that what you're referring to?
14 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] It could be that. But there is a
15 legal definition of the usury rate and I would like to know really what
16 the usury rate was at that particular time in Lebanon.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Defence counsel, you are
18 talking about an Ottoman law. It's an ancient Ottoman law, that anything
19 above 9 per cent is considered to be usury. This is the Ottoman law.
20 But this has nothing to do with the market. To determine interest rates,
21 dear friend, in the Lebanese pounds, this is done by the bank of -- the
22 Central Bank of Lebanon. It is offered in the market and banks will
23 subscribe and any Lebanese can join.
24 So it is a completely competitive operation. Whatever you offer,
25 and according to the offer you get the cheapest price, and on the basis
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 56 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 of this you determine the interest rate.
2 As for foreign currency, they are determined by international
3 institutions which market these bonds. And offers come from investors,
4 and this is again a competitive operation. It is not to be determined by
5 the Central Bank of Lebanon or the Lebanese republic or any individual.
6 It is akin to any auction.
7 Suppose somebody comes to sell a picture, an antiquity, they will
8 say: This is the offering price. Who will bid up? And this is exactly
9 the same thing with the bonds. They were offered by a number of
10 investors -- there are 70 banks in Lebanon, for example, and there are
11 other investors and financial institutions. According to the offer, at
12 the end of the day the Central Bank of Lebanon will determine the rate of
13 interest on the basis of this. It cannot be decided by the Ministry of
14 Finance and it cannot be decided by the Lebanese government either.
15 Q. Prime Minister --
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Are we done with usury rates?
17 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I just take note that I haven't had
18 any answer to my question, and I'd like to put --
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: But is it important to your case to delve
20 into whether or not there were usury rates in October 2004? Mr. Siniora
21 seems to say that it's based on an ancient Ottoman law which didn't apply
22 at the time. To me that's an answer, no. But if it's worth pursuing, I
23 invite you to repose the question if it's something you need to use in
24 your case and make a submission on it at the end of the day.
25 The relevance is escaping me at the moment, but I trust you as
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 57 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 counsel that it is relevant in some way as a question of whether there
2 were usury rates or not. I think Mr. Siniora said no, but if you're not
3 sure you can ask him again and he might able to say "yes" or "no."
4 Mr. Siniora, were there usury rates in Lebanon in October 2004?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are no usury rates in
6 Lebanon. This is what was stipulated by the old Ottoman law,
7 Your Honour.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you.
9 Mr. Korkmaz.
10 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So just to round off on this issue, I'm not going to revisit it.
12 I'm not talking about Ottoman law. Ottoman law existed a long time ago,
13 and now it's done and dusted. I'll talking about the legal issue here.
14 All countries in the world have a legal usury rate. You didn't want to
15 answer this -- or you did answer it, and I act on that basis, let me move
16 on. Is it right, Prime Minister --
17 A. Your Honour, let me give you an example of what is happening now.
18 Greece and another country such as France are offering their bonds, the
19 French government is offering bonds at a certain price, whereas Greece is
20 offering bonds at another price. Why? Why would Greece borrow at 4 or
21 5 per cent more than the French government is borrowing at? And both are
22 borrowing in the same currency. Why? Is that to be considered usury?
23 No, this is the market. It's the market that decides according to the
24 risk factors.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Is that what you're referring to, the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 58 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 premium risk which Mr. Siniora referred to before of 4 or 5 per cent or
2 whatever for borrowing in Lebanon?
3 Mr. Siniora seems to be talking about the difference is -- the
4 market differences in countries within the same euro zone selling their
5 bonds at different interest rates. You're referring to it as a usury
6 rate. Are you talking about the same thing?
7 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] No, we're not, Your Honour. The
8 usury rate, this is a rate which is established by the law and beyond
9 which any interest rate -- any interest rate that goes beyond that
10 threshold can be subject to a challenge and it being cancelled.
11 So the interpretations that the Prime Minister is providing, the
12 explanations that he is providing, talking about Ottoman law or whatever
13 else he's talked about, in respect of that, for me, the answer should be
14 very straight-forward. It's a very straight-forward question: Was there
15 a legal usury rate prevailing in Lebanon, yes or no? And if it was the
16 case, give me the rate. That was all I was putting to the witness.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Well, I did invite you about ten minutes ago
18 to put your definition of usury rate to Mr. Siniora so we would all know
19 what you are talking about.
20 Mr. Siniora, can you answer the question as most recently posed
21 by Mr. Korkmaz?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What Mr. Korkmaz is saying has
23 nothing to do with the financial world.
24 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Can you tell us what it was in
25 2004, to enlighten the Bench and to see if Prime Minister Siniora agrees
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 59 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 or not, what was this rate in 2004?
2 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I put this question to
3 Mr. Siniora about the very specific time-frame, October 2004, the date at
4 which Hariri's government left, left government. So I've just put to him
5 the question: What is the rate? Either he knows or he doesn't. Either
6 he says it or he doesn't. That's all there is to it.
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do you know what it is, Mr. Korkmaz?
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] It seems to me, Your Honour, that
9 this rate went beyond - how can I put it? That the rates used by the
10 banks and that was mentioned went beyond the usury threshold, which, in
11 my view, was the tune of 12 or 13 per cent.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Why don't you just ask Mr. Siniora if he
13 agrees with you that there was a 12 to 13 per cent risk factor, as he
14 puts it, for borrowing in Lebanon at the time or, to use your word,
15 "usury rate"?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The usury rate you're talking about
17 is only to be found in old texts. It is not resorted to in the financial
18 markets in Lebanon.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. All right. The final question, Prime Minister, going to the
21 matter of the ratio of that debt or the bank contracted debt, did that
22 weigh in to two-thirds of the overall debt, the debt contracted with the
23 banks; in other words, what the state owed at the time to the banks, did
24 that equate to two-thirds of the total debt?
25 A. You mean by this that the bond holders represented the banks,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 60 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 that the holders of these bonds were the banks? Is that your question?
2 Yes, it's natural. It varies from time to time, but in general, the
3 banks hold approximately 60 to 70 per cent of the total bonds issued by
4 the Lebanese government, overall bonds.
5 Q. Thank you. That's all I wish to establish on that particular
6 point.
7 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as you see fit, either
8 we can pursue -- because I'm going to move to another area, but looking
9 at the time ...
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I think "pursue" is the right word,
11 Mr. Korkmaz. I think we'll take a break now.
12 Mr. Korkmaz, we seem to have spent a lot of time on economics
13 tutorial. Can you please reflect over the lunch where we're going. It
14 just seems that some of these questions could have been put very
15 directly. I know there have been some long explanations, but some of
16 them are capable of putting very directly. So can I ask you to reflect
17 over that. And we will adjourn now.
18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Welcome back, Mr. Siniora.
21 Mr. Korkmaz, just one second. I'm sure Mr. Siniora, who is
22 indicating, has some more economic information for us. But before, are
23 we going to continue with the economic lecture or are we moving to
24 another topic?
25 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we've finished on that
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 61 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 area. Now we're moving on to another area of evidence.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We're relieved to hear that. Mr. Siniora,
3 are you? Or do you have something you wish to bring to our attention?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a few facts and
5 figures that I was able to gather from my mobile phone where I can -- I
6 keep some information.
7 Regarding the public debt at the end of 1992 in US dollars was
8 $3 billion; at the end of 1998, 18.5; at the end of 2000, it was
9 $25 billion; at the end of 2004, $36 billion; at the end of 2010, 52.5;
10 at the end of 2014, 66.5.
11 As for the interest rates on treasury bonds in Lebanon pounds, at
12 the end of 1992, and for one year, 21 per cent; at the end of 1998,
13 14.8 per cent; at the end of 2000, 13.5; at the end of 2004, 6.6; at the
14 end of 2010, 4.8; and at the end of 2014, 5.4.
15 The last information is that the share of deficit in the
16 electricity sector in Lebanon from 1992 till 2014 and as it stands in
17 2014, at the end of 2014, is $31 billion out of the public debt. So out
18 of the 66.5, there are 31 billion which is the cost of the deficit in the
19 electricity sector.
20 At the end of 2014, the share of the old public debt, which was
21 already existing at the end of 1992, is $20 billion. These are all
22 documented in books and publications and information that are issued by
23 the Central Bank.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you, Mr. Siniora. We are all more
25 educated as a result.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 62 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 And, Mr. Korkmaz, you've just seen how easy it is. Perhaps if
2 you'd asked Mr. Siniora before he left yesterday evening to come back
3 with this information this morning, we could have dealt with all of that
4 in that precise paragraph as we have.
5 But, Mr. Siniora, Mr. Korkmaz is going to move to another topic.
6 But thank you for doing that research for us over lunchtime. We are sure
7 at some point Mr. Korkmaz is going to make it relevant to the trial.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Sir, I'm now moving on to the matter or the problem about
10 Solidere, that company that was mentioned earlier on. I'd just like to
11 have one or two clarifications, explanations, on your part, Mr. Witness.
12 Of course, the purpose of that is not to dispute or challenge the legal
13 engineering or financial engineering of the company Solidere. However, I
14 want to establish what was the major criticism or challenge made by the
15 equity holders, the shareholders. Why did they produce any challenges?
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Before you answer, Mr. Siniora. That
17 question, I think, is going to invite a very long, detailed explanation.
18 If you have a specific proposition about criticism, could I
19 politely suggest you just put it to Mr. Siniora, otherwise he'll give you
20 all four sides of the story and perhaps come back with some more
21 information next time we meet.
22 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
23 Q. For me, the main point is the appraisal of these entitlements and
24 these goods, these property. Can you talk to me about that?
25 A. I mentioned merely that this is a topic on which we can write
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 63 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 complete books. It's not something that I can discuss within minutes.
2 Anyway, I mentioned during the past four days that the issue of Solidere
3 is an important and significant one for that area and how it was rebuilt
4 and how it helped unify Lebanon, both parts of Lebanon, and achieve a
5 national unity.
6 This area was the subject of several interpretations. But
7 anyway, it was always faced with the fact that all of the solutions
8 suggested needed one party, one side to be in charge and to take charge
9 of the reconstruction and resolve the problems that they were faced with
10 because there were several owners for every estate, due to the
11 inheritance, due to the sales and purchases and different rights.
12 So sometimes for one building, one building composed of two or
13 three floors, they had more than 400 owners for the same building. So
14 there was the idea of regrouping and division in a way to preserve the
15 rights of the rights holders. And in reality and up until this day,
16 there was no other alternative idea, viable solution for that area. Even
17 up until this day.
18 Of course, in life, God gave -- he gives rain to earth. Some
19 people get plenty of rain, others get flood, and others have drought.
20 Even God himself cannot please everyone. So we found, we came up with
21 this best possible solution to preserve the rights of the rights holders
22 and at the same time to be able to encourage foreign investors because
23 the state had no other possibility to do this task on its own.
24 Therefore, we appraised and assessed that area and that was done
25 by various judicial committees, neutral, impartial, independent
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 64 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 committees, and a percentage was given, a percentage of the capital of
2 this company that were in charge of the reconstruction was given to
3 shareholders. They were given two-thirds of the shares. And the share
4 of the investors and the investors who invested in that company, they are
5 not completely removed from the Lebanese people. They are part of the
6 Lebanese. A large majority of them were also rights owners who
7 contributed in this new company, and their share from the capital was
8 limited to one-third of the overall capital of the Solidere company.
9 So on that basis, this company was established. And the method
10 that was adopted, hadn't we adopted it up until this day we wouldn't have
11 been able to unify the two parts, the two sides of Beirut, and we
12 wouldn't have been able to unify Lebanon.
13 So that was the idea. It was a very creative idea. And I would
14 like to say that it was a lesson learned by other states who could have
15 adopted the same style in order to rebuild their countries and develop
16 them.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. We can't go on like this. The
18 question you were asked a moment ago was:
19 "For me, the main point is the appraisal of these entitlements,
20 these goods, these properties. Can you talk to me about that?"
21 Now, the strict answer to that was: Yes. I can talk to you
22 about that. But the question is how much we need to talk about it. What
23 we need Mr. Korkmaz to do is to put any propositions to you, Mr. Siniora.
24 It's not your fault, Mr. Siniora. You were asked a question which
25 invited you to explain and elaborate and to give -- to give an
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 65 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 explanation for that beautifully wide, open-ended question.
2 Mr. Korkmaz, you've got to put propositions to the witness which
3 support your case or challenge the witness. That just invites a history
4 lesson following our economic one before lunch. So please, can we -- can
5 you just please put short propositions to Mr. Siniora so he can deal with
6 your -- deal with the questions you want to pose and get to the point of
7 where you want to be.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question that I
9 put, from following your prompting, to Mr. Siniora, the question was
10 about the valuing, the appraisal, of the equity provided by the owners to
11 this company. Now there were owners -- I need to provide an explanation
12 so that the things are put in their proper context and understandable.
13 If the Prime Minister doesn't want to cooperate, well, then, I have to
14 explain things.
15 So there were owners, who were ex-appropriated or not, but in any
16 case, they provided monies or they put up their property to Solidere, a
17 company, and in exchange they received shares, shares that were given to
18 them by Solidere.
19 Q. And so here's my question: What was the --
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, please pause for a moment.
21 You've just given us a few of the propositions you wish to put to
22 Mr. Siniora. He knows the history of this. If you're suggesting
23 property was expropriated, just put it to him. If you know the answer --
24 what you want Mr. Siniora to do is to agree with you. If he doesn't
25 agree you, he won't. He will tell you something else. But if you're
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 66 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 going to suggest that Solidere expropriated in an unfair manner property,
2 please just do so and it will be much quicker. He'll answer you. If
3 you've got the figures or a report to the contrary, please put the
4 propositions to Mr. Siniora.
5 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologize.
6 Q. Mr. Siniora -- no, no, I mean the problem is very
7 straight-forward. There were monies provided to Solidere, but what was
8 the sum of those monies to receive in exchange the shares? The value of
9 the money, did it equate to the shares? Because this is part and parcel
10 of company law; in exchange for money, you receive shares. Can you give
11 me an answer to that, please?
12 A. Yes, that was done by judicial committees by virtue of the law,
13 pursuant to the law that was adopted by Parliament regarding the Solidere
14 company. These real estates were appropriated and the owners, the rights
15 owners were given shares in the company. And to be fair, they received
16 as rights owners two-thirds of the shares, and the investors received
17 one-third of the shares.
18 Q. And who set that value?
19 A. The judicial committees are the ones that appraised the value of
20 all this real estate, all these plots of land, and they said: These were
21 estimated at this amount of money, and therefore, at the end, we would
22 like to have half of this amount in order to give -- in such a way as to
23 give two-thirds to the rights holders and one-third to the other
24 investors or shareholders and each one will get what they had originally,
25 initially.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 67 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And, Mr. Siniora, in terms of voting rights,
2 were the voting rights equal for the two-thirds and one-third; that is,
3 one share, one vote? Or were there classes of voting rights; that is,
4 you've got shares in different categories and you had a different
5 entitlement to vote? Do you know that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two-thirds of the shares are a
7 class A, and one-third are class B shares. But as shareholders, every
8 shareholder owns one share can vote. In the company, they have equal
9 rights. Everyone has equal rights depending on the number of shares they
10 own.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Was there any weighting to one class,
12 class A or class B? Does class A or class B have more weighting in terms
13 of voting shares?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shares are equal, but one share
15 just indicates -- to indicate that they represent the rights owner were
16 called class A. And in order to indicate that they were shares that they
17 were given by investors, they were called class B. But they are all
18 equal as in any other company.
19 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] But, Your Excellency, share A --
20 the price of share A can be different from share B.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but the price of share A can
22 be maybe 10 cents higher that the class B shares.
23 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] So it depends on the offer and
24 demand.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Normally. But the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 68 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 price of the share is the same.
2 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. All the owners of those buildings in that particular area, did
4 they -- were they compelled to make the money available and make -- well,
5 make their property available to the company Solidere? Were they forced
6 or did they do it of their own free will?
7 A. Of course there was a law that was promulgated to establish this
8 company, a law that was ratified by Parliament. However, I would like to
9 tell you, counsel, tell me, if that project hadn't been established,
10 which constituted a driving force for Lebanon and its economy, what would
11 have been the picture like in Lebanon nowadays? Of course, the regular
12 citizen, some rights holders do complain and I do not deny that.
13 However, in life we need to ask ourselves the hard questions and say what
14 is the alternative. And I'm telling you if it weren't for this tool, for
15 this company to get Lebanon out of its crisis, the area of Solidere would
16 have remained the same as it was in the 1970s; meaning, completely
17 destroyed, dividing the capital, dividing the country, and a place where
18 crime takes place.
19 Q. Now this is a very precise question. The voting rights of the
20 shareholders of the various categories of shares, did they enjoy this
21 same voting rights and the same prerogatives in terms of their vote?
22 A. I have no information. The price of share A, if there is an
23 additional right, so do you mean that the rights owners have more rights
24 than the investors? But I believe that class A and class B have the same
25 voting rights. So everyone who has a share can vote like anyone else at
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 69 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 the general assembly and they can express their opinions in such a way.
2 So the investors who contributed in cash did not have a privilege
3 or priority over the rights holders when they got these class A shares.
4 Q. What was the equity of Hariri in Solidere when Solidere was
5 established?
6 A. I remember that the amount was out of $1.8 billion,
7 Prime Minister Hariri invested $120 million. And let me, Your Honour,
8 tell you this story. It's also in my interest and in the interest of
9 everyone.
10 Prime Minister Hariri asked me, "What do you think, Fouad?
11 Should I invest in this project?" I told him, "It might be better if you
12 do not contribute." He said, "You may be right. But let me tell you
13 honestly, if I do not invest in this project, no one else will contribute
14 and invest in it, and therefore this project will fail and we will not be
15 able to rebuild the city of Beirut. In all cases, I will invest with
16 this amount of money and the revenue of this return on this investment
17 will be used for charity work, the charity work that I do." And this is
18 what happened.
19 Q. So what was the equity share, therefore, of the Hariri family at
20 the outset when Solidere was established? What was their holding?
21 A. 120 out of 1.800, what would it equal? Around 8 per cent? 6.5,
22 6.5 or 7 per cent.
23 Q. What was the value of each individual share for subscribing in
24 cash to the fund?
25 A. The value of the share was $100 US. Later on, it was divided --
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 70 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 every share was divided into ten. It was a stock split. So every share,
2 every stock was -- instead of equalling a nominal value $100, the value
3 became $10 because it was split.
4 Q. And do you know the value of the shares today, their current
5 value?
6 A. The value of the share today is perhaps $12 or $13.
7 Q. And the Hariri family holding went from 6 per cent, that's
8 basically what you've said, in the original share makeup, but where does
9 it stand currently?
10 A. I do not know. I honestly do not know. I don't know. I don't
11 know if they sold a part or not. I don't think they did sell anything,
12 but honestly, I'm not familiar with their share today, nowadays.
13 Q. Very good. One last question now regarding the capital. The
14 subscribers, the rights holders who were involved initially, could you
15 tell us what their current proportion is in the capital of --
16 A. Over the last 20 years, people sold, people bought. These are
17 marketable shares. Some people were shareholders and they had bought
18 their shares in cash, and they kept their shareholding or they increased
19 it, they bought from other shareholders, and others may have sold their
20 shares. It's a listed company. It is listed in the stock exchange. And
21 so the shares can be bought and sold, and they are bought and sold on a
22 daily basis.
23 Q. Now, the companies who contributed to or provide services to
24 rebuild the centre of the city and to rebuild the area that was owned by
25 Solidere, now all of those company who were involved in construction and
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 71 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 fitting, et cetera, were those companies not in their majority holdings
2 of the Hariri family?
3 A. Absolutely not. Certainly not. All these companies that were
4 awarded contracts in Solidere were contractors. There were engineering
5 consultants, international ones such as Dar-El-Handasah. These are
6 engineering contractors. And the contractors were companies belonging to
7 a number of Lebanese. President Hariri did not see to it that his
8 companies were rebuilding. Some people bought a piece of land and they
9 built it, yes. Maybe somebody from the Hariri family bought a plot of
10 land and built on it. It was no longer to do with Solidere. Solidere
11 sells land and the developer builds on it. President Hariri did not do
12 anything in Solidere as a contractor. Not at all.
13 Q. Now, at the previous hearings you indicated that the state regime
14 at the time was blocking modernization of the company and that your
15 government, Mr. Hariri's government, had a large number of projects that
16 you had launched but which were blocked on electricity projects,
17 telecommunication projects. Could you tell me something about the
18 telecommunications project? The construction of the telecommunications
19 network in Lebanon was done by private companies; is that right or wrong?
20 A. There are two types of telecommunications. There are the
21 land-lines, they were built by the Lebanese state, and President Hariri
22 and with his acute vision he started dealing with telecommunications and
23 the power sector, and he generalized the landline network to all of
24 Lebanon. As for the telecommunications and the GSM network and the
25 mobile network, for your information, Lebanon was the first Arab country
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 72 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 that managed to have a mobile communications network before any other in
2 the region. And Lebanon had a mobile telephone, according to this new
3 technology developed by the French, there was the number of subscribers
4 in France and in the world to France Telecom was not -- was not more than
5 115.000 subscribers. This was on the basis of a law ratified by
6 Parliament which allowed for the presence of two competing companies in
7 order to set up these two companies. Yes, it was done by the private
8 sector, and the public sector could not at all -- neither financially,
9 nor in technology, nor in terms of knowledge could it have done that.
10 Q. Prime Minister, regarding mobile telecom and that sector, the GSM
11 sector if you like, two companies received tenders. The first company
12 was majority in -- by a majority, a holding of France Telecom. Was
13 Mr. Hariri not the owner of the second company?
14 A. No. There was Mr. Dalloul, who, before getting engaged to the
15 daughter of Mr. Hariri, was one of the shareholders in that company.
16 Q. So LibanCell, the second operator, was closely linked to
17 Mr. Hariri. Mr. Dalloul was the owner of that company and he married
18 Mr. Hariri's daughter?
19 A. He was not owner. He was a shareholder.
20 Q. So was Mr. Dalloul's holding not a [overlapping speakers] --
21 A. I don't think so. Yes, he had shares. I'm not saying no. But
22 that man wanted to get engaged to President Hariri's daughter. Should he
23 say: I don't want her to marry you?
24 Q. Well, that's not the matter I'm concerned with. I'm talking
25 about control of an important company, LibanCell. That company was under
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 73 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 the control of persons close to the Hariri family. That's all I want to
2 establish.
3 A. Yes, this is not a secret. It's well known. Do you want me to
4 tell you what was his holding in the company? I can tell you. But he
5 was also joined by other investors.
6 Q. Would you agree that he held more than 50 per cent of the
7 capital?
8 A. I don't remember. Honestly, I don't remember.
9 Q. Mr. Dalloul, tell me, was he not the author of the book that you
10 cited yesterday? The person who wrote a book on President Lahoud's
11 presidency?
12 A. Thank you for this question. Minister Dalloul, I would like you
13 to read the insults he's written about me.
14 Q. No, no, no. I don't agree. I was simply asking you to specify
15 whether it was the same person, yes or no. I need no further
16 information.
17 A. Yes. He is the father-in-law of the daughter of
18 President Hariri, but we are adversaries. He is hostile to us and you
19 can read what he writes about us. We do not agree on politics. But a
20 man who wrote a book in 2008 who was a minister of defence, he is showing
21 in the book what the Lebanese security system was doing supported by the
22 Syrian security in Lebanon.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, did you actually have a figure
24 you were going to put to Mr. Siniora about Mr. Dalloul's ownership? You
25 said it was more than 50 per cent. I'm just wondering, just for the
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1 purposes of precision, were you going to suggest to Mr. Siniora what it
2 was, a certain figure?
3 I assume you have that information if you were going to ask the
4 question.
5 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not have specific
6 information regarding a private company.
7 Q. But if I were to say to you more than 80 per cent?
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I could also provide
9 you with a figure, if you wish, afterwards.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The only point I'm making is, in
11 cross-examination, it is better if you just get the figure in advance
12 and -- when you prepare your cross-examination and put it to the witness,
13 suggest it was whatever: 75 per cent, Mr. Siniora, what do you say?
14 Boom, here's the document. That's how we do it. That's what
15 cross-examination is about. You get your answers and your documents,
16 then you put the propositions to the witness, he agrees or disagrees. If
17 he disagrees and you have something to the contrary, you show it to him.
18 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I am sure of is
19 that he held more than half of the capital. If I had the exact figure, I
20 would have said it to him. I do not have the exact figure and this is
21 why I am asking the Prime Minister to provide it to me.
22 Q. In any case, you agree with me that over 50 per cent of the
23 capital was held by that family?
24 A. No, I don't agree with you. Not at all. Irrespective, you are
25 trying to say that he was an owner. Yes, irrespective of whether he had
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 75 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 a large amount of shares or not. According to what I remember, it is
2 less than 50 per cent. According to what I remember. But I don't have
3 anything to prove this. Tomorrow I can send you this information. But
4 it is not confidential. Everybody knows about this in Beirut. But I can
5 send you the information.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just a minor point, Mr. Korkmaz. When you
7 said a moment ago, "what I am sure of is that he held more than half of
8 the capital ..."
9 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour?
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That's not evidence. Your belief that he
11 held more than half of the evidence -- half of the shares isn't going to
12 help us because that's not evidence. If Mr. Siniora agreed with you,
13 that would make it evidence. If you had the documents, that would also
14 make it evidence. But your saying you're sure it's more than 50 per cent
15 is just something you're saying while sitting in the court.
16 But anyway, if you have the figure, please produce it at some
17 point if it's part of your case, or Mr. Siniora will find it for you for
18 next time if you insist that it's part of your case. Otherwise, let's
19 move on.
20 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] No, I was looking to Mr. Siniora to
21 provide the exact figure. Given that it is a private company, I do not
22 have access to the breakdown of the capital in that company back in the
23 1990s and 2000.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: If it's important to your case, through the
25 Defence Office you can send a request for assistance to the government of
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 76 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Lebanon, and the government of Lebanon might be able to get that
2 information for you. The Defence Office exists for it -- to help you
3 with these things, if it's an important part of your case.
4 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, the difficulty lies in the
5 fact that it is a private company. If it was a public company quoted on
6 the stock exchange or what have you, then that information might have
7 been more readily available. But it is a private company. And in any
8 case, we will take the steps necessary to provide the information on the
9 breakdown of the capital holdings to the Chamber.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Only if it's important to your case. The
11 Prosecution has a case, the Defence has a case. We're not interested in
12 it unless it's part of the case or something has arisen which makes us
13 conduct an inquiry. At this point, we are unsure as to the relevance of
14 Mr. Dalloul's holdings in that company. That's all. If you can make it
15 relevant, provide the information. Otherwise, don't.
16 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Of course. I'll move now to
17 another question.
18 Q. I think it was on the 24th of March when you were being
19 cross-examined by my colleague, Mr. Larochelle -- or, rather, excuse me,
20 Mr. Haynes, he put a question to you regarding creation -- the creation
21 of the tribunal. At that point in time, you said that a meeting took
22 place on the 14th of February and a decision was taken to move for the
23 creation of an international tribunal. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes. The meeting took place but not at my residence but at the
25 residence of Prime Minister Hariri. Yes, the meeting was attended by a
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1 number of politicians at the time, and the decision was taken in order to
2 set up the international tribunal.
3 Q. And you stated, and I quote, from the transcript of the 24th of
4 March, page 40, paragraph 10, you say that:
5 "Above all, in the early days, we began to realize that the crime
6 scene had been tampered with."
7 Can you tell me of what tampering you had heard and what evidence
8 of that you have?
9 A. I refer you to what was mentioned in his statement by
10 Mr. Fitzgerald, in his report.
11 Q. But, Prime Minister, on the 14th of February, Mr. Fitzgerald was
12 not yet on the scene. The attack had only just taken place.
13 Mr. Fitzgerald became involved somewhat later. I'm speaking of the day
14 of the bombing.
15 A. That day, all the cars that had been destroyed in the blast were
16 taken away, and other things, we don't know what they are, they were
17 taken away from the crime scene. And orders were given in order to cover
18 the blast scene, the crater. But this was also revealed by other
19 information that came to us and through the investigation, through the
20 report of Fitzgerald and the report by the international investigator and
21 all the other investigations that were carried out, which you have at
22 your disposal.
23 Q. Prime Minister, let's be careful. We're not talking about
24 Fitzgerald because Fitzgerald comes into play March, in March. Now we're
25 on the 14th of February and a meeting that's taking place at the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 78 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 residence of Mr. Hariri and the decision which we referred to a moment
2 ago was taken then.
3 A. As I said before, I didn't manage to reach President Hariri's
4 residence. I had fainted on hearing the news. I arrived at 4.00 in the
5 afternoon. Meanwhile, people had started filing in at President Hariri's
6 residence, and I think that meeting took place somewhere between 4.00 and
7 5.00 in the afternoon.
8 Q. And the communique that you issued after that meeting, at about
9 what time was that issued?
10 A. At 6.00, perhaps. Or 6.30. I don't remember exactly.
11 Q. How can you affirm that the crime scene tampering consisted of
12 the removal of vehicles when the decision to move the vehicles took place
13 in the night of the 14th or the 15th of February at, what, 11.00 at night
14 or later? How can you have known that already at 6.00 p.m.?
15 A. I didn't say that at 6.00 they were tampering with the crime
16 scene. I said that after -- in the first few days people realized that
17 this happened. I didn't say at all that what was said about the
18 tampering with the crime scene happened at 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon.
19 I never said that. I said that the crime scene was tampered with and
20 this happened in the aftermath of the blast, in the first few days. But
21 those people who were meeting were calling for the setting up of an
22 international tribunal to make sure that this issue was going to be
23 investigated in an objective manner.
24 But after one or two days, it became clear, those people who went
25 to the crime scene realized that the crime scene had been tampered
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1 with -- sorry, the blast scene.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, "tampered with" is a subjective
3 word. Why do you say "tampered with"? Are there not other explanations
4 for what occurred apart from tampering?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am -- in so saying, I am relying
6 on what I read, that is, the reports I read, what I heard personally from
7 Mr. Fitzgerald later when he visited us, when he told me personally that
8 the blast scene had been tampered with.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. So is it fair to say your --
10 your opinion, conclusion, is based upon Mr. Fitzgerald's conclusion which
11 he conveyed to you?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
14 Q. But the decision was taken on the 14th of February, and then you
15 were calling for an international tribunal and not for a commission.
16 This is what you said verbatim in response to Mr. Haynes.
17 A. Yes, a number of politicians gathered then decided to have an
18 international tribunal. Some people were for, some were against that,
19 but it all ended up with a decision calling for the creation of an
20 international tribunal.
21 Q. Very well. So on the 14th of February that decision was taken
22 and, at that point in time, the Fitzgerald commission obviously was not
23 in existence. It was first instituted one month later.
24 A. Yes, because this call by the participants at the meeting. They
25 were -- it was done under the impact of the previous assassinations that
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 80 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 had targeted journalists, religious figures, politicians, et cetera, who
2 had been killed without any results, and they wanted to refer to an
3 international authority to guarantee neutrality, objectivity, and
4 transparency in the investigation and the court case. This is why they
5 called for this. Then there was a committee that was appointed after the
6 meeting of the Security Council, and the tribunal -- the decision for the
7 tribunal was taken. All this followed on.
8 Q. Fine. I am now going to put a question to you regarding the
9 arrest and the detention of the four Lebanese generals. My colleague,
10 Philippe Larochelle, put a question to you on this. His question was
11 whether the America ambassador was aware of this.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: At what point? He was clearly aware of it
13 afterwards.
14 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You said that you had never informed Ambassador Feltman about the
16 arrest of the four generals, that you hadn't discussed it with him.
17 A. I repeat once again that on the morning of the 30th, I was
18 visited by Mr. Mehlis and I received a visit as well by the prosecutor of
19 the Court of Cassation who told me that he had issued an order to search
20 the domiciles of the people you mentioned and to bring them to the
21 international investigation -- the headquarters. I didn't talk, I didn't
22 see, I didn't discuss with anyone except with the Lebanese directly these
23 issues.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, can you just tell us the
25 transcript page reference for that, please? With Mr. Larochelle.
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1 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] It was on the 24th of March. I'll
2 see if I can assist you on this. Yes, the 24th of March, 2015, on
3 page 87, and the question was:
4 "Did you discuss the situation of the four generals with the
5 American ambassador?"
6 Lines 21 and 22 is where you'll find the question put by my
7 learned friend.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The question which was posed to Mr. Siniora
9 was:
10 "Did you ever talk about the situation of these four generals
11 with the US ambassador to Beirut?"
12 Answer:
13 "The decision to accept the request of the international
14 investigator was made and there was no contact whatsoever with anyone,
15 any of these diplomats or representatives. We took the decision alone on
16 the basis of the authorities given to the international investigator, and
17 we took the decision by discussing the matter with the cabinet."
18 Then I asked him to clarify, and Mr. Siniora replied:
19 "After the arrest was made, this became a news, a news that could
20 be discussed by anyone. Perhaps I discussed it. Perhaps I didn't. I do
21 not remember because it was no longer important. The arrest had been
22 made on that morning without consulting anyone at all."
23 My reading of what the witness said in that passage was that he
24 may have discussed it with the American ambassador, but it appears from
25 what he was saying he was only referring to afterwards when it was public
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 82 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 knowledge. If your -- if you want to suggest to Mr. Siniora he discussed
2 it with the American ambassador before, maybe you could do that because
3 that's not consistent with his answer when Mr. Larochelle asked him the
4 question, and it's not consistent with what -- with your paraphrasing.
5 Because as far as I can see, he didn't say he didn't discuss it, he said,
6 "I don't know." He said, "Maybe I did." That was in the context of
7 afterwards. So maybe you could put the question again more precisely.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am getting there.
9 What I wanted to do was place the question in its proper context, which
10 leads me to the next question.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes, but you have to accurately quote or
12 paraphrase what Mr. Siniora several days ago. The reason I intervened
13 was because my memory was: I don't think that's what he said, which is
14 why I went back and looked at the transcript. And the way you put it to
15 Mr. Siniora, it wasn't what he said. The context is important. If you
16 want to suggest to him he spoke to the American ambassador before, please
17 do so.
18 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Very well. Your Honour, my
19 question was: Did you talk about the situation of the four generals with
20 the American ambassador, a question which was put to you by my friend.
21 Q. Now, my question is the following: In July, and more precisely
22 the 6th of July, 2007, your government, through the intermediary of the
23 former justice minister, Mr. Charles Rizk, talked about the matter with
24 the US ambassador, Mr. Feltman, and this was done in a public cable which
25 was broadcast by WikiLeaks and taken up after the fact, quite obviously,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 83 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 by various papers, including Lebanese papers.
2 So here's my question: Are you aware of what occurred during
3 that particular meeting?
4 A. No, I was not aware of that meeting and whether it took place and
5 what was discussed during it. I do not know. Second, I did not know at
6 all what was going on in the investigation, regarding this matter or any
7 other matter. I was informed on that morning of the decision made by the
8 prosecutor general at the Court of Cassation and what happened happened.
9 And on that basis, I went publicly and addressed the Lebanese on all
10 television channels and told them what happened. And I did give this
11 document to the court, and you can refer back to it to see what I said,
12 and you can also go on the YouTube channel, my channel on YouTube, and
13 you can hear the text that I made on that day, the address.
14 I never discussed this with anyone except the people who are
15 concerned in this matter, the people that I asked to meet with and
16 discuss with them; meaning, the minister of interior, minister of
17 defence, and others. Therefore, I did not discuss this neither with the
18 American ambassador or any other ambassador or anyone else for that
19 matter. I am really keen on preserving Lebanon's sovereignty, and I take
20 it seriously.
21 What is mentioned in WikiLeaks, I do not know. I have no
22 information about it. And this is the first time I hear about this.
23 Q. Prime Minister, the statement that you are alluding to was a 2005
24 statement. Here, we are talking about two years after, the 6th of July,
25 2007. And in that particular document --
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1 A. 2007?
2 Q. 6th of July, 2007.
3 A. Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought that you were talking about
4 the July -- July of 2005. My apologies. Please, go ahead. Sorry, I
5 misunderstood. 2007, what happened then?
6 Q. All right. Ambassador Feltman, he says --
7 MR. CAMERON: I object. This is an objection that I want to
8 raise before this document is referred to.
9 If --
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Which document?
11 MR. CAMERON: It's a document that --
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It's on the queue somewhere? Which -- is it
13 on our queue? Which one? Is it number 55, so I can follow?
14 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] It's number 54 on our list.
15 Forgive me, it's the -- it's number 55. That's right. 55, Your Honour.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Which passage are you referring to -- just
17 for the purposes of the discussion, just tell me which paragraph or
18 passage you're referring to, please, Mr. Korkmaz.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what's of interest to
20 me is paragraph 1, paragraph 2, paragraph 3, paragraph 4, 5, 6, 7, and 9.
21 Pretty much the entirety of the document, in fact.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And, Mr. Cameron, you take objection to
23 Mr. Korkmaz putting questions to Mr. Siniora based upon this WikiLeaks
24 document which purports to be of some American -- leaked American cables
25 from a month, diplomatic cables.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 85 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 MR. CAMERON: Yes, I do. I do not take exception to
2 Mr. Korkmaz's capacity to put to the witness a proposition that he may
3 glean from this without reference - specific reference - to this document
4 to ask the Prime Minister whether a particular conversation occurred or
5 not.
6 But the particular reference to this document carries with it two
7 difficulties. The first difficulty arises from the reliability of this
8 document. Now, I have a case that comes from the United States District
9 Court for the District of Columbia which might offer you some guidance in
10 respect of --
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Are you referring to the -- I apologize for
12 interrupting. Are you referring to the provenance or source of the
13 documents or the information contained therein? I do appreciate they are
14 two completely different things. On its face, they appear to be leaked
15 US diplomatic cables. There is an issue as to whether the American
16 governments denies that they are that. Or are you referring to the
17 information and the reliability contained therein? Because they are
18 conversations -- they're referring to conversations with the American
19 ambassador by a Lebanese official in which he said that someone else had
20 said something.
21 MR. CAMERON: Based upon the present state of affairs in which my
22 understanding is that the US State Department and the US government has
23 never acknowledged the provenance of any of these documents. At present,
24 they are only ink on a page. There is no basis upon which anybody could
25 take any evidentiary value because there is no actual provenance to the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 86 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 documents. That would be what this case, which I can provide to you,
2 essentially says.
3 The second aspect of this, which, really, the first aspect should
4 be determinative of Mr. Korkmaz's capacity to present the document to you
5 or to read from the document, but in addition, this document was obtained
6 as a result of a criminal act. And there has been a finding of guilt as
7 to the malefactor and a very significant sentence imposed.
8 And it's open to you to consider the effect of receiving
9 documents which are the subject of a criminal act under Rule 162(A),
10 which -- and you might wish to consider whether or not receipt of
11 documents like that might affect the impact -- or might impact upon the
12 integrity of the proceedings.
13 But my first point, which I say is determinative, is that there
14 is absolutely no basis which my friend can offer, other than the fact
15 that he obtained it from WikiLeaks, that this is an actual cable which
16 emanated from the US government or what it contains within it is even
17 remotely accurate. That's my primary submission.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You agree that Mr. Korkmaz can put the
19 propositions. It's a source of information. But whether the witness
20 agrees with them is a different matter, and whether the Chamber were to
21 accept the document into evidence is, of course, a different matter. And
22 with the -- but that -- that's it, isn't it because --
23 MR. CAMERON: Yes, of course. And as I said from the outset --
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. Okay.
25 MR. CAMERON: -- I don't have any trouble with Mr. Korkmaz
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 87 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 putting the proposition, but that has nothing to do with this document.
2 It is not necessary for Mr. Korkmaz to refer to this document in putting
3 those propositions. And the only reason that he would refer to this
4 document would be to give it an artificial evidentiary value which it is
5 incapable --
6 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] The witness should be excused.
7 MR. CAMERON: [Microphone not activated] -- of possessing.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, there is -- no, no,
9 Mr. Siniora, we are not asking you to leave. Mr. Korkmaz is going to put
10 the questions to you. Let's just proceed on the basis of you putting the
11 propositions to Mr. Siniora and see how far we go with that this
12 afternoon.
13 Mr. Cameron has raised a much larger issue, which we are not
14 going to deal with this afternoon, but you're certainly most welcome to
15 put any propositions based upon whatever source material you have to
16 Mr. Siniora. So let's proceed that way.
17 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,
18 Your Honour.
19 Q. So a member of your government, Charles Rizk, minister of
20 justice, so no small beer in the government, allegedly said to the
21 ambassador -- and I'm going to read the excerpt, it's paragraph 1, 7th or
22 8th line --
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: No. No, the ruling I made, maybe it wasn't
24 clear enough, was: We are not going to deal with the issue of the
25 admissibility of the document. But if you have propositions you wish --
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 88 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 where you wish to paraphrase and put to Mr. Siniora such as: Is it true
2 that minister of justice -- I'm sorry, that you and -- sorry, is it true,
3 Mr. Siniora, that you and the justice minister, Charles Rizk, agreed that
4 at the beginning of next week Mr. Siniora will -- you, Mr. Siniora, will
5 do whatever.
6 The source is not relevant for the purpose of the questions. If
7 you just put the questions, you will come to the same point. We can't
8 deal with the issue of admissibility of a WikiLeaks document this
9 afternoon. It's a much bigger issue. Mr. Cameron is arguing law at us.
10 We can't -- you'd have to argue law back at us, and it's quite technical,
11 this one. But propositions aren't.
12 Ask him if he attended a meeting with Mr. Rizk and that's what
13 they discussed. Mr. Siniora can agree or disagree or give his version of
14 what happened. Let's do it that way. And if we need to explore the
15 issue further of the admissibility of the documents, we can do it between
16 now and when Mr. Siniora returns.
17 So just propositions, paraphrase whatever it is you want to put
18 from whatever documents you have.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Prime Minister, if I were to say to you that a member of your
21 government had said to the ambassador that the four generals who had been
22 arrested in August 2005 could be released, decided upon by Judge Eid, the
23 Lebanese investigating magistrate, Elias Eid?
24 A. This topic that you are showing here is completely different from
25 what you mentioned earlier on. I do not wish to comment on what you said
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 89 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 previously. But regarding this topic, that there was a discussion
2 between myself and the relevant minister regarding these matters, yes,
3 maybe, maybe that happened. This could happen on daily basis. And this
4 is quite normal for the minister of justice to come and discuss with me
5 issues related to this matter. Maybe. Maybe. But I do not recall
6 specifically whether this happened.
7 Q. And if I were to say that this member of your government had
8 expressed fears with regard to a decision that Elias Eid may take, and as
9 a consequence of that, measures had to be taken to prevent the release of
10 the four generals?
11 A. This is something that you should ask Minister Rizk, not myself.
12 If it's true.
13 Q. Mr. Siniora, Mr. Rizk was a member of your government. Could he
14 have acted in this way without you being aware?
15 A. Do you think that we live in a totalitarian regime and no one can
16 breathe without taking the approval of the Prime Minister?
17 Q. And if I were to say that Mr. Rizk cites you a number of times in
18 the cable, that your name crops up on his lips a number of times in the
19 cable, what would you tell me about that?
20 MR. CAMERON: [Microphone not activated]
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron is on his feet.
22 Mr. Korkmaz, you just slipped up a little bit there. Please go
23 back and just put the proposition without referring to the cable because
24 we're not going to rule on its admissibility this afternoon. But you can
25 put a proposition to Mr. Siniora: Did you know that, for example, did
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 90 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 you know that your minister was meeting with an ambassador? Did you
2 discuss this with your minister, et cetera, is that true?
3 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you know if a decision to release the generals could go
5 against the 14th of March Movement in the debate, in other words, would
6 work against the 14th of March Movement?
7 A. We never looked at the matter from this perspective. When the
8 decision was made by the judicial authorities to release them, I did not
9 hesitate for one second. I do not work on the basis of rumours that X
10 relayed a rumour or a piece of news to Y. I don't work on that basis. I
11 never hesitated, even for a split second. When the judicial authorities
12 made their decision, I implemented it. First of all, a decision to
13 arrest them, and then a decision to release them. I implemented these
14 decisions immediately. And as you know, Counsel, my history in
15 respecting the law and the judiciary and their independence and everyone
16 working in the judiciary know that very well through a number of examples
17 and practices, and I'm sure you know about them.
18 Q. If I were to say to you that Mr. Rizk had said to the ambassador
19 that it would be better to have a decision taken to this effect by a
20 foreign or international tribunal rather than to have their release done
21 following a governmental decision, the Lebanese government's decision?
22 A. I would like to -- I would like you to address your question to
23 Minister Rizk and not to myself.
24 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Korkmaz, how can the Lebanese
25 government release these four generals? Is it the Lebanese government
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 91 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 that should do so and decide to do so?
2 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's the very nub of
3 the issue. Mr. Rizk, as justice minister, makes reference or asserts,
4 offers, proposes, to the US ambassador --
5 MR. CAMERON: I'm sorry, Mr. Korkmaz cannot say that to the
6 Tribunal in these circumstances if his only source of knowledge is this
7 document. I was under the impression that we were working outside the
8 bounds of this document today prior to a decision as to its
9 admissibility. And it is, in my respectful submission, inappropriate now
10 for Mr. Korkmaz to read or tell the Tribunal excerpts from the document.
11 If he wants to put propositions to the witness, that's perfectly
12 accessible. If he wants to read or rely upon this document, that's where
13 my objection obtains.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, in the few minutes remaining,
15 do you have any propositions you would like to put to Mr. Siniora based
16 upon any source material you might have there?
17 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do you know whether the custody, rather, or the holding in
19 detention of the four generals was done on an arbitrary basis?
20 A. The detention was made pursuant to the law and to the authority
21 given to the prosecutor general and also taken into account what was
22 discussed with the international investigators. And in my opinion, that
23 detention, their arrest, as the prosecutor general told me, was a
24 rightful one.
25 Q. My question: Do you know whether their detention was arbitrary,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 92 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 given the fact that they had already spent four years behind bars?
2 A. There are people who thought that this detention was arbitrary.
3 Yes, I did hear about that. However, I was relying on the opinion of the
4 judiciary. Therefore, they remained behind bars until a decision was
5 made to release them.
6 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Charles Rizk had taken steps with the
7 US ambassador with a view to put pressure, to bring pressure to bear to
8 prevent the release of the four generals?
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Hang on.
10 Mr. Korkmaz, I don't understand the question. Taken steps to put
11 pressure, who? For the -- the --
12 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
13 Q. To put pressure on the Lebanese government and pressure on
14 international bodies in order to expedite the process giving rise to the
15 establishment of an international tribunal.
16 A. Charles Rizk is talking with the US ambassador to put pressure on
17 my government? This did not happen. Why would that happen? To put
18 pressure on international instances? What do you mean? Your question is
19 not very logical. It does not -- it's not logical when it comes to my
20 government or international bodies. Again, you are asking me about
21 something that Charles Rizk did. I don't think so. But in all cases I
22 cannot answer for that. You can ask Charles Rizk whether he did
23 something of the sort. I have no information at all that this happened.
24 I don't even know about the content or the idea or anything related to
25 that matter.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 93 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. Now, you as president of the government and Mr. Rizk being a
2 member of your government, in that capacity, do you think that by
3 being -- by making his grievances known or expressing his view, would
4 there be any breach of the secrets incumbent upon the work conducted by
5 an investigating magistrate?
6 A. You want me to answer this hypothetical question and tell you
7 this is right? In my opinion, this is not right. How do you want me to
8 answer?
9 Q. Are you aware that the United Nations Human Rights Commission,
10 based at the Palace of Nations in Geneva, issued a memorandum -- or,
11 rather, a declaration, which stated that the incarceration of the four
12 generals was arbitrary? Are you aware of that?
13 A. I heard about it and the Lebanese judiciary also heard about it.
14 And if the Lebanese judiciary thought at the time that it was necessary
15 to release these four generals prior to the date of their release, they
16 would have taken the decision and we, as a government, would have
17 implemented it.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Was that a working party on arbitrary
19 detention? Can you just give the date of the report?
20 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It's a
21 UN document. A report. I think it was dated 27th or 28th of November,
22 2007. In this report, the commission says that in the case of
23 General El-Sayyed and another general whose name I do not recall, it
24 characterizes their detention as being arbitrary.
25 Q. Mr. Siniora, my question is: Did you yourself not respond to
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1 that commission which was carrying out its inquiry into human rights and
2 who asked for details regarding this arbitrary detention?
3 A. As far as I remember, there were correspondences in this regard.
4 I don't remember specifically, but there was an exchange of letters or
5 calls. Something of the sort. I can go back and get the details, but
6 now I don't remember regarding this subject.
7 Q. Was your response published in the Al-Mustaqbal --
8 A. If it was published, it must be true. I remember that something
9 happened, but I don't remember now exactly what was the contents of this
10 document. I can check. And as you're saying, it may be true. If you
11 show it to me, I will remember. If you have the document.
12 Q. Yes, we have the document. But if you confirm, there is no need.
13 Once you were informed of this arbitrary detention, what measures did you
14 take as the head of government to release these individuals?
15 A. It depends what we answered. I would like to see the reply, and
16 then I will tell you. I don't have this document so that I can answer
17 your question.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What was the date of the Lebanese
19 government's response, Mr. Korkmaz? It will be an official document with
20 the Human Rights Commission, won't it?
21 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Of course. Yes, Your Honour, of
22 course. It was a letter that was published by the newspaper Al-Mustaqbal
23 in its 15th of April, 2008, edition.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Does it -- does that Al-Mustaqbal
25 publication have a UN document reference for us? The responses -- I know
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 95 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 government responses are often available on UN Human Rights -- is it
2 Committee or Commission at that point? No matter, we can find it at some
3 point.
4 What was the date of the release of the four generals? It's
5 2009, March 2009; is that correct?
6 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Pre-Trial Judge
7 issued a decision dated 29th of April, 2009.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That was after the transfer or their formal
9 transfer of custody to the Special Tribunal. They were released shortly
10 afterwards by an order of the Pre-Trial Judge but not by the Lebanese
11 government; correct?
12 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Absolutely. After four years in
13 prison.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And you want to remind Mr. Siniora of what a
15 newspaper reported that his government had -- how his government had
16 responded to the United Nations Human Rights Commission?
17 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't understand your
18 question. Excuse me.
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, a few moments ago, said that he
20 didn't have the document but it would refresh his memory as to what
21 happened. Well, clearly they weren't released by the Lebanese
22 government. But if you have a forensic purpose in Mr. Siniora telling
23 you what the Lebanese government did or if it's any different to the
24 newspaper article which, as he said, would have accurately reported what
25 the letter said, you could show him the document. Or you could just tell
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 96 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 him what it says.
2 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Of course, I have the document.
3 That is to say, it's a copy of the public newspaper, Al-Mustaqbal. If
4 the Prime Minister would like to review it, I would be delighted to
5 provide it to him.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Why don't you hand it to him and just
7 paraphrase for us what it says the Lebanese government did. Or didn't.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Prime Minister, my question was to establish whether or not you
10 were aware of that arbitrary detention and whether you reacted and took
11 practical measures to bring about their release.
12 A. As I answered already, this is a six-page article. Yes, I was
13 aware of the gist of the report. I don't really remember the contents of
14 the report, and of course the government replied to this. I knew that
15 people were saying that this measure was arbitrary. And I also knew that
16 those involved in the release or not did not take any decision to that
17 effect, except later when the decision came out on the 24th of April,
18 2009.
19 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 Your Honour, five minutes?
21 Q. I would like to move to another subject, but I would just like to
22 put a question to you. Have you read the indictment confirmed by the
23 Pre-Trial Judge at the request of the Prosecutor; that is, the indictment
24 of 2011? Have you been able to view it?
25 A. I wasn't following things in details in 2011.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 97 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. Very good. Do you know that amongst the accused there is the
2 name Mustafa Amine Badreddine? Do you know him personally?
3 A. No, not at all.
4 Q. This is my last question. Do you have practical, verifiable
5 information to offer regarding the alleged preparation or responsibility
6 claim regarding the blast which killed Rafik Hariri on the 14th of
7 February?
8 A. No, absolutely not.
9 Q. So you seem to be in no position whatsoever to elucidate the case
10 before us; is that the case?
11 MR. CAMERON: This is not --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Definitely not.
13 MR. CAMERON: -- an appropriate question to put to this witness.
14 He's given his answers about the fact that he can offer evidence -- no
15 evidence in particular areas. It is a disrespectful thing, in my
16 respectful submission, to say to this particular witness.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, I'm sure no disrespect was
18 meant by Mr. Korkmaz. It's his manner of putting questions.
19 But having said that, that probably means you've probably
20 finished and you don't have any more questions if he can't help us with
21 anything. "N'est-ce pas?"
22 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Not at all, Your Honour. This is
23 but the beginning.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: There is a song about that, Mr. Siniora. We
25 don't need to go to that. You just want to say something, I think.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 98 Procedural Matters
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to say a couple of
2 words if you decide to adjourn now, because I will not be here tomorrow,
3 and if you would allow me I would like to express, Your Honour,
4 honourable members of the Bench, I would like to express my appreciation
5 and my pride in the work -- the major work you're doing in order to
6 defend the truth and in order to find the truth with regard -- to the
7 assassination of Prime Minister Hariri.
8 I would like to thank the Prosecutor and his team for everything
9 he's done, and the Defence counsels and the counsels who are defending
10 the victims. I would also like to thank the Defence counsels for all the
11 efforts that they have exerted and they are still exerting, and it is
12 their right to express their opinions and to defend the people who have
13 been accused.
14 I would also, if you would allow me, I would like to thank you.
15 I am very proud to have attended this distinguished court, because it has
16 given me an opportunity to say the truth as I swore to do before this
17 Court, to say the truth, all the truth, and nothing but the truth, in
18 order to give you the information I have about President Hariri and what
19 he has done in order to defend Lebanon, its independence, its
20 sovereignty, its democracy, and its freedom, and what he did in order to
21 split Lebanon from Syria but also to defend Lebanon against the Israeli
22 aggressions, and what he did for the revival of the Lebanese economy to
23 allow Lebanon to be able to keep up with the 21st century. It is an
24 opportunity that has been given to me, and I hope that you will accept
25 this expression of appreciation for your role during the last four days
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 99 Procedural Matters
1 but also during the preceding period.
2 I am at your disposal in whatever way you see fit and whenever
3 you see fit. I shall be at your disposal to contribute with you to
4 clarify the truth, to find the truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Well, that segues very nicely into the next
6 issue we have, Mr. Korkmaz, which was a video-conference link. I asked
7 you to reflect upon that overnight. You said you were in our hands, and
8 of course it's our order. The Prosecutor, I think, said he had no
9 objection to Mr. Siniora continuing his evidence by video-link if it is
10 necessary.
11 Mr. Siniora, is that still the case, that video-link is the best
12 option for you to continue or can you come back to the Netherlands? As
13 you've just told us, you're completely at our disposal. Be careful what
14 you say.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no doubt, Your Honour.
16 You don't realize how much I respect your distinguished court and I am at
17 your disposal, but my circumstances are such that they are not that easy.
18 At least in the next two weeks, I will not be able to return to
19 The Hague. If this is possible, if you think this will help. Of course
20 at the end of the day what I want is for the results that we seek to be
21 achieved. If it can be achieved through video conferencing, I shall not
22 hesitate. And you will probably appreciate my circumstances.
23 If this is not possible, I will come no matter what, but it will
24 depend on the time available to me to come here.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 100 Procedural Matters
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, we would prefer it if you were
2 back in the courtroom. It's -- as you can see, it's, I'm not going to
3 see a convivial atmosphere, but it is certainly easier to communicate
4 with each other and counsel if you're actually present.
5 Now, we wouldn't be able to -- we can't accommodate you in the
6 first -- I'm sorry. We're basically full up in April, but we might be
7 able to do something towards the end of April because the Court is
8 basically -- the courtroom is basically occupied through almost all of
9 April. But the first two weeks of April, don't worry about it, we have
10 other business which we have already scheduled.
11 So it might be possible in the second half of April or in May.
12 Mr. Cameron will speak to the relevant people to organize a date, because
13 that would mean he would have to reorganize some of his witnesses. But
14 we would prefer you to come back here. So thank you very much for that
15 offer.
16 Mr. Korkmaz, you're relieved you'll be able to eyeball
17 Mr. Siniora in close distance rather than on a large video screen. The
18 question is how long do you still need.
19 Now, I'm just -- we took a lesson in statistics from you earlier,
20 Mr. Siniora, with the left hand in the bucket of hot water and the right
21 hand in the bucket of cold water, and we come up with 30 degrees.
22 Well, there were 59 documents on your queue more, Mr. Korkmaz.
23 I'm holding them up. The statistics are: So far you have referred to
24 three of them, which I am told is 5.1 per cent. So does that mean that
25 the other 94.9 per cent remain to be referred to? And as it's taken
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 101 Procedural Matters
1 you -- I haven't calculated the minutes but more than a day to get
2 through 5 per cent, does that mean it's going to take you another 19 days
3 to get through the other 95 per cent?
4 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had, of course,
5 indicated two days. So in principle I still require one day. I won't
6 ask for an extension because I might be told that I am making
7 unreasonable demands.
8 So, Your Honour, I will try to limit myself to one day. Perhaps
9 an extra half day will be necessary but that will depend very much on the
10 positions adopted by and the answers given by the Prime Minister.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, what do you -- what's the best
12 suggestion? I mean, we don't really need to have a big discussion in
13 open court about dates. I know that there are possibilities in May, but
14 April -- we could discuss -- this could be discussed between the parties
15 and with Mr. Siniora out of court, I think.
16 MR. CAMERON: I would be happy to do that, yes.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: But based on what Mr. Korkmaz has said and
18 your possible re-examination, which I understand you'll have some, it
19 will be safer to schedule Mr. Siniora for two days. And I think to allow
20 you to attend to your work commitments, we would probably try and do it
21 at the -- on a Thursday and a Friday or a Monday and a Tuesday. We don't
22 sit Saturdays or Sundays, so -- which would allow you a travel day on a
23 Wednesday or a Sunday or a Saturday.
24 So I think that should work.
25 Okay. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Siniora. You're now free
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 102 Procedural Matters
1 to leave. We thank you very much for your patience and educating us on
2 some of the finer points of the Lebanese national debt in the 1990s and
3 2000s.
4 Mr. Korkmaz, if you have any -- I suggest this seriously: If you
5 have any -- if you want to go into any technical details with Mr. Siniora
6 when he comes back, can I please ask you to communicate to the -- with
7 the Prosecution and maybe get the gist of the information you require to
8 Mr. Siniora before he returns to allow him to come to court armed with it
9 so he can rattle off his statistics or anything, rather than you asking
10 open-ended questions. I'll just leave it to you. If that's what you
11 want to do; if you don't, it's up to you.
12 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Thank you for your advice. Thank
13 you, Your Honour.
14 Q. And thank you, Mr. Witness, for having taken the time to
15 cooperate in this exercise.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you Mr. Siniora.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will do my utmost,
18 Your Honour, with the cooperation of the Prosecutor so that I can, God
19 willing, be here at a later date. Thank you.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Bon voyage.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Now, Mr. Cameron, there was that issue you
23 raised about the admissibility of that document.
24 I just want to flag with you, Mr. Korkmaz, have we moved on from
25 that document? I'm talking WikiLeaks.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 103
1 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am planning on using
2 it, and I would also like to see it entered on the record.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: This is an issue which we would have to
4 receive proper written submissions from the parties but well in advance
5 of Mr. Siniora's return, but we can work out a timetable for this. If
6 you're making an application to -- for the Chamber to admit the document,
7 you're going to have to do it in writing and you're going to have to do
8 it in time for the Prosecution to respond within, I would suggest, the
9 normal time-period, which is the two weeks, so that they can do their
10 proper research, and you have to give the Chamber time to consider the
11 submissions. And you understand it has wider complications than just
12 this courtroom in terms of what we might have to do. So there has to be
13 a sufficient amount of time in time-tabling for us to reach a decision if
14 you wish to pursue an application for us to admit that document into
15 evidence. It may be your other -- the other Defence counsels have a view
16 on it as well. So we'll proceed on that basis.
17 It's a warning, you must get -- if you're going to do it, you
18 must get your submissions in fairly soon and they have to be properly
19 reasoned.
20 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour. We shall do
21 so. Thank you.
22 MR. LAROCHELLE: We may be interested, Your Honour, in also
23 making submissions on the matter. I don't know if the Prosecutor could
24 forward to us the decision which he brandished in the air earlier on. We
25 would be happy maybe to intervene in that debate.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 104
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We'd be shocked if you weren't interested in
2 intervening. And is it a Canadian case, Mr. -- I won't say "quelle
3 surprise," but Mr. Larochelle may be familiar with it.
4 MR. CAMERON: He may be, but it's an American case from the
5 United States District Court.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron will, of course, communicate the
7 decision to you.
8 Is there anything else we need to deal with this afternoon? If
9 not, we stand adjourned. I think we're next sitting on Thursday, the
10 9th of April.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.25 p.m. 12
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