An Oral History Of Columbia College

Sheldon Patinkin

OK, it is June seventh, 1998. This is Bernie Sahlins, who was at the time doing New York stuff and doing an interview with , the head of Second City, suggested some film and TV stuff and then in chair of the Theater Department, that I might want to take the job Toronto doing Second City again Columbia College Chicago. because it would be a power base. I and SCTV. And I guess what was didn’t know what that meant but it most interesting about it, because I And if you can start by telling us sounded like a good idea, so I took didn’t understand what “power when you came to Columbia and the job. And I took it with the base” meant, was that I would have what the circumstances were understanding that if I didn’t like the opportunity to build a Theater that brought you here. it I’d keep it for a year and if I did Department basically from scratch. I began at Columbia as chair of the like it I’d keep it for five years. I went to the University of Theater/Music Department, which And I ended up loving it, so I’m Chicago, which has no theater it was then and has been up until still here after eighteen years. Is department. All that we did was last month, when the that what you needed to know? outside of school hours, although Theater/Music Department sepa- frequently inside of school hours as rated into two departments. In How did you know Bill Russo? well, and we eventually, in 1953, September of 1980 I was called by Why did he call you? broke away from the University Bill Russo to see if I’d be interested When I was the Artistic Director of Theater and formed our own in the job. I said, “No,” because my Second City in the ‘60s, Bill, who theater, which eventually became teacher, , was also up for was also friendly with Paul Sills at an improv theater called the the job and he needed it and I was the time, asked me if I would stage Compass and then it became actually making more money at a jazz opera he’d written based on Second City. And when I came that point than I was when I took Othello which Columbia was doing back in ‘78, I started directing the job. And when Paul was turned for high schools around the city. again and built up enough of a down for the job, Bill called me And I said I would, we got to know reputation so that I was enough of again and I was curious enough, each other that way. And he had a name in town for them to want especially since Bill told me that earlier called to ask if I’d be inter- me as an attraction; that part of it the department was falling apart. ested in a job and I said, “No.” didn’t interest me. But that’s part He was in charge of the Music of what Bernie was talking about Program and he is now the Music So you had a professional rela- when he said, “power base.” I don’t Department chair. And that there tionship with him acknowledged was some talk about his closing as a peer in Chicago. down if it didn’t turn around Right. because it was not in good shape, there were only about seventy-five What, do you remember, what or eighty students in the depart- were some of the things were ment, between theater and music. that the individuals that were And that was interesting. So I went trying to convince you to come and interviewed; essentially I inter- here, what they said about viewed them rather than them Columbia? And did you have any interviewing me for the most part, impressions about Columbia and said, “No.” And then I was before you came here, how did taken out to lunch by a couple of they try to sell you on Columbia, people and said “No” again. I was, and what did you find? at the time, writing for Second City Their trying to sell me on it was for development deals that they had largely based on how much they with Universal Pictures for comedy, needed me, frankly. films, and with NBC for comedy Ego-stroking. sitcoms, for sitcom pilot ideas. And Yeah, more or less. I was, I had been out of Chicago from ‘68 to ‘78

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understand the concepts of power Carter-Harrison, who is still here show was with , and very well, except satirically. And and ought to be interviewed, I was the third show was this big splash having no experience with a theater given to understand was hired basi- produced by three women who had department, except for three cally four years earlier to calm the many ties to money and society. It tumultuous and extremely unhappy department down, that had turned was an enormous production of months at the American Academy into nude men dancing up and Clare Booth Luce’s The Women, of Dramatic Arts in New York down the aisles of Rockefeller with a great revolving set by when I was living there. I quit, Chapel and things like that, it was Michael Meritt, furs and jewelry actually, after four weeks but I had a—and then started disintegrating and vintage clothing borrowed to fulfill my contract for three totally. In fact, the only thing I was from friends and relatives all over months because it was a nest of told by Mike Alexandroff, when I the city and a big benefit for politics, essentially. I mean, I had had my interview with him after I Second City to raise the rest of the friends and enemies on the faculty I accepted the job, that I could not money we needed for the produc- hadn’t met yet. It was strange. And do was to hire the chair before Paul tion. It got huge press coverage and I knew that theater departments in Carter-Harrison, in any capacity the next year we had doubled the general, that are not really attached whatsoever. And so since she was an size of the department. And I to a college, are separate, noncred- old friend of mine it created some continued the guest artist thing for ited factories. I knew the theater problems in our relationship. She a while, until the students started departments were subject to grave was, in fact, Bernie Sahlins’ ex-wife. complaining that they weren’t political things and that colleges It was complicated, anyway... getting leading roles. And the crit- and universities were subject to ics were starting to compare the grave political things. But I also Was she hoping that you might professionals in the show to the knew that it was not usual for a bring her back in some capacity? students unfavorably, at which theater department to be staffed Yeah, oh yeah. She actually was point—well, not so much unfavor- with professionals. And that, to me, rather assuming that she would be ably as constantly saying, “You can seemed like a very interesting made a teacher in the department, always see the difference.” And by difference. but I was not allowed to nor did I that point we were big enough, really want to. And then one of the well, eighteen years ago we had As it turns out, it’s a great part of things that turned the department about eighty-five majors between why the school and the department around rapidly was the guys who theater and music, now we have are so successful. It’s one of the best wrote , Warren Casey and close to four hundred in theater rules about Columbia College, as a , were becoming friends alone. They’re not all majors but matter of fact. There are a lot of of mine because we were both on we’ve got about four hundred good rules; it’s a good school. And the Jeff committee together. And students taking courses in the when I took the job, I also said, they had a new musical which no department; it’s way too big. “Do not expect me to participate in one would do called Island of the college-wide activities much or Lost Co-eds. And Warren asked if We’ll get to that later. campus politics.” And they all we’d be interested in doing it at Much later. And so I stopped the laughed. And then when I started the school. And I had already heard guest artist thing. Although I’m not participating they got angry; from many people that it was really beginning it again, we’re beginning there wasn’t that much at that bad and I said yes before reading it, it again next season a little bit with time. It’s much more, as we’ve because I knew we’d get publicity faculty members because the grown bigger, of course, the jockey- from it. And it wasn’t that bad, it students have started asking for it ing for positions of power and poli- was cute and we got an enormous again. tics have become much more amount of publicity from it because harder, daily life around here. it was the second musical by the I want to back up just a bit Although I’m glad to say not in my guys that wrote Grease, and press because you talked about that. department, our department. And coverage and reviews and stuff. And You didn’t come out of a theater we very quickly built up a head of that started building things. And department, a traditional... steam in the department. I restruc- then I decided the next year to have I’ve never had a theater class in my tured it. Actually, the person who guest artists in our shows. The first life that was for credit. was the chair before me, Paul show was with members of the Remains Company, the second

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How, what were your models, or I mean was it a novelty, was it year of that we opened our own did you have models and what... serious, novelty or Little Rascals theater on the North Side called When I was six years old, five years kind of... Playwright’s Theater Club, which old, we lived across the street from Well, we took it seriously. No, no, ran for two years with people like a Chicago park that had a field no, we did them straight. , and and house in it with a library on one and , end and a big auditorium on the You did them straight. , and Paul was the other end and a gymnasium in the Absolutely. As a matter of fact, we Artistic Director; David Shepard middle. And I was on my way to did them here. was the Producer—and that lasted the library one day and I stopped for a little under two years— Really? where the auditorium was and Josephine Forsburg, major improv looked in and there was a kid’s When I walked into this building the first day as chair of the depart- teacher in town. And then out of show rehearsing. And I watched it that they formed the first improv until there was a break then I ment, I walked into the building where I had sung in operas when I theater which was the Compass in walked down to the front and said Hyde Park, and then on the North to the women, it was the director, was a kid and where I had gone to Hebrew high school; because this Side, and then in St. Louis, and that I wanted to do that. And then in ‘59, Second City opened. somebody had just quit the show was the College of Jewish Studies before they moved to the campus... Now we’re having our fortieth and that’s how I started theater. anniversary a year from December. Had you been here many, I mean, That, plus doing a lot of directing What park was it? of plays and operas and reviews and Ogden Park in Englewood. I was was it a flashback or... Oh, it was weird for a couple of musicals and writing for television already playing the piano, and then and writing some movies and stuff when I was seven I started—I was days, yeah. This was the office of the head of the College of Jewish like that. I’ve had a long career, and taken into a group called the All I always earn my living in my field. Children’s Grand Opera Company, Studies. which did full length opera every And you weren’t in here for disci- So was it a good fit that you year in the original language, with pline reasons? wanted to use working actors in children in all the roles. No, never. At any rate, and then your department and that was the message being given to you from Are you kidding me? when I was eight I went to Jack and Jill Playhouse for a year and Columbia or was it something... I’m dead serious. Very few people Working with theater people, it’s have had this experience in their learned how to do things like say, “Prunes, beans, prunes, beans, and not just actors; all of our faculty, lives. And I was [Pappagano] in design, directing, the technical, Magic Flute at the age of eight and a big black bug bit a big black bear.” And “Rubber baby buggy they’re all professionals. That’s the [Dozuozetti] in Carmen at the age whole school. of nine and I continued to about a bumpers.” That’s a hard one, stuff year after my voice changed, at like that. And I was in a couple of plays with that. I learned how to And that fit well with Columbia or which point I realized I didn’t have is that something that you a very good voice anymore, I put on make-up wrong. And that only lasted a year, I didn’t like it. brought? stopped. I still direct operas. I No, no, no, that’s Columbia’s rule. teach at the Lyric Opera Center. And I was in plays in school, in high school. And then in college I And so that was a good fit for What was it like seeing a chil- was accepted as a member of the you then. dren’s production? University Theater, which was an Oh yeah. It also allowed, and part I don’t know. I was in them, I extracurricular, after school thing. of it, a power position, is that it didn’t see them. We did, I think, the first play was allowed me to hire needy and really William Shakespeare’s Measure for talented people. Like the first four Did your parents go? Measure. And part of that group or five years here a lot of our acting My parents not only went; my was Paul Sills. He started, on faculty were Steppenwolf people mother made all our relatives go. Saturday afternoons, a class teach- until they got rich and famous, They hated me for years. ing the improv games that his mother had developed. And after a

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stuff like that. And our faculty are here. And they said, “If you don’t We know what, everyone knows all really hard working and well- like it you can stay...” How many what has to be accomplished in any known professionals in the Chicago years? given semester of a class, but how theater community. One. it’s accomplished is up to what the teacher wants. And the teachers are Could you expand on that, your One. “If you do like it, please constantly coming in with sugges- philosophy, as it has developed stay five.” So you came and you tions for changes; we’re always here, of what you’re trying to do liked it immediately. What was it changing things: the content of as a department and for the that you liked or that you felt course, adding courses, taking away students? that this is where you belonged? courses, etc. We drive the adminis- Unlike most theater departments, The faculty. tration crazy with our constant we’re not academically oriented. changes in the schedule. And We are product oriented, in The faculty, College-wise? No, no. I didn’t even know another thing about the College as essence. We do an enormous a whole that I find a very valuable number of shows every year. We do anybody in the faculty outside of this department for a while because part of our, although it also creates six fully produced main season its own problems, is the open shows and anywhere from twelve to I never went to any of the meet- ings. admissions policy—in that it does twenty—that’s in a year—and two things that I think are very anywhere from twelve to twenty So you knew how many of the important. It teaches a lot of people workshop productions a semester. people that were already in very quickly that although they We have a lot of directing students place? want to do this, it is not what they and each of them has to direct a For the most—to a certain extent, want to do to try an earn a living play a semester during their last we grew fast. We grew large very for the rest of their lives. I think two years. So we have—and then fast; we grew big very quickly. I that’s important, rather than allow- our faculty also likes to do work- was a college English teacher for ing people to dream about what shops here because they get a four and a half years. That’s what might have been. And another chance to work on shows and the my degrees are in, in English lit. It thing is that basically every other styles that they don’t necessarily astonishes my students when I can theater department and theater get a chance to work on in the correct the grammar and punctua- program in the country requires an professional world. So we usually tion on their papers and do. audition; we can’t because of the have anywhere from twelve to open admissions policy. As a result eighteen directing projects a semes- They’ll thank you in the long run. of which a lot of people who don’t ter and anywhere from two to four Another thing about me, as know how to audition, but are faculty workshops a semester, plus opposed to most if not all of the really talented, get the training we now have a Freshman other chairs, is that I teach three to they need. The problem is that it Performance Workshop. We do four courses a semester. So, I’m a leads to very uneven first year three shows a year that are only teacher and I now have co-teachers classes, very uneven. And we some- open to freshmen. And they create for all the classes, so that when I times lose a couple of the good the shows themselves with a faculty have to miss there’s still somebody ones, along with the ones that member as a director; we’re very there. But part of why I liked the shouldn’t be doing it, because they busy. And that doesn’t count the job is because I love teaching the get fed up with their classmates. music stuff, which now, fortu- students here. Another part of why But the professional faculty and the nately, is mostly moving into its I like the job is because the faculty open admissions policy, I think, are own building. in my department, in our depart- wonderful aspects of this College; ment, are as committed as I am to certainly for this department. So that took over the Sherwood? the teaching process. We, I, because Yeah. they’re all working professionals; That kind of takes us into—what do you see as the mission of the And is that something, you said again, unlike most theater depart- College and how does the Theater that, you know, you really, you ments, we don’t have a [one] Department maybe synch or does said, “No,” many times to coming system for teaching—we do for voice training, otherwise it would it differ at all, in your words. be really confusing to the actors.

404 Sheldon Patinkin An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago

And, you know, has that changed my department. Also, the govern- No, you’re doing great but how over the years since you came to ment has required a lot more have you found, you said primarily Columbia? things in the last few years than you’re a teacher and with this That’s a very complicated question, was the case before, which involves growth have you been able to find oh my, you’re making me nervous a lot more paperwork and a lot a balance? Or is that a continu- (laughs), if this is meant to be a more thinking about results in a ous struggle between being the permanent record, especially. way that aren’t necessarily helpful chair and being a teacher and but are, I guess, important. And, with its growth? Only say what you’re comfortable well, the first meeting I attended at The growth has not affected my with but... the school was, it’s not called the ability to do both. The increasing Well, I’m, for a long time—when- College Council. It was called, I demands from the central adminis- ever I would start getting particu- don’t know, the IPC or the APC or, tration, to be part of the central larly teased about not coming to it changed names about six times administration, that has made meetings—I would come to a an after a while I gave up trying to things very difficult to a point meeting and open my mouth, as a follow the course of it because it where—in August of 2000 I will result of which they were quite was all initials and I’m not good at have been here for twenty years and happy when I didn’t come to the that. I listened for about twenty, I will reach the age of sixty-five, next few meetings. I consider my twenty-five minutes to what was and I’m thinking about retiring. job, at most meetings, either to be going on at the meeting, which is a Not because I want to retire but the voice of reason or the person long time for me to be quiet, and because I really am not happy with who makes jokes; sometimes both. then raised my hand and said, the college administrative part of But sometimes I just might get “This sounds to me like a problem my job. angry because a lot of the meetings of state’s rights versus government, I attend are about process and not versus federal rights. Is that an The paperwork, the... about result and I’m a very result- accurate description?” And I got The meetings, the arguing, the oriented person. So I get bored and yelled at by most of the people in backbiting, the ugliness, the irritated. Also, over the last few the room, although what it really yelling and being yelled at, it’s... I years there’s been a major increase turned out to be was the depart- don’t know whether I will or not. in jockeying for power and position ments were really thinking of One of the things that I have done etc., etc., as we’ve grown bigger themselves as separate fiefdoms. that was very foolish is I have never than we can handle. I think the And that doesn’t work so well taken a sabbatical... seriously biggest single problem with the when we’re this big. And there is consider resigning, retiring. If I do College, that the College has at the a—and will continue to be for a retire I want to retire as chair but moment and it is doing something while—a major struggle both not as a teacher. However, there are about it, is that it grew from a between the departments and plenty of places I can teach if it small mom and pop organization between the departments and the would make the new chair uncom- into an eight thousand, over eight administration for where power lies fortable, my being here, and I thousand, student body without in what. And the President now is certainly would understand that. growing in administration and a very different person from the Nobody asked me about that when support system in proportion to the President then. And there’s a lot of I took over and I had three chairs size of the College as it was grow- friction that comes and goes, that I in my department, former chairs, in ing. A system of Band-Aids has hate. And I sometimes think that my department. It worked out OK, been the general progress of the one of the saddest things I can eventually. Eventually being now school. But it is being worked on, think is that I’m the most rational with one of those, because Bill and I’m certainly not saying of the chairs, but every once in a Russo is finally his own chair anything that everybody isn’t aware while I am forced to think that. (laughs); that’s not public. I’m of. But the process involves a lot of That’s a sad statement. But what gonna take a sabbatical. As a backbiting and a lot of ugliness and was the original question? matter of fact, I’ve written down, the necessity for me to go to a lot through an application, right now, more meetings in order to protect The mission... right after North Central, a year I am avoiding, I am avoiding it.

405 An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago Sheldon Patinkin

from Fall, and see if that’ll do it. Do you see, in the future, on the and staffing for what there is right Also, Dr. Duff is retiring in 2001 horizon, is it, can Columbia main- now, and not even enough of that, and I’m sort of curious to see what tain its uniqueness, its differ- and not growing in terms of what happens at that point. So we’ll see ence, you know, being seen as they hope it will be in ten years. but I am thinking about it. I’m this large alternative or... sick of a lot of the administrative That depends on who takes over So there’s still some of that... stuff—not within the department, I after John. John has done a lot It’s all Band-Aids. Sherwood’s a love the department. toward making it more traditional. Band-Aid; it’s small. We need a I don’t think that was his intention; huge new building and that’s a lot Would it, can you see it going it’s just that’s what he knows. And of money. And the board doesn’t any other, I mean, do you think he was given an enormous task seem particularly interested in this is part of just being larger? when he took over the job, both of doing that any more than they’re I think it’s a part of large, being building the endowment and of interested in spending the interest larger and part of the new govern- restructuring the College. I think on endowment. There are a lot of ment requirements. And also part he tried to do too much too fast. problems; they will eventually get of it is simply that the chairs, who And that’s why some of the unhap- solved. What the College will be have been here for a long time, are piness exists that exists. He also, like after they are solved, it’s hard not adjusting easily to a tighter with some justification, came into to tell. I’m basically a relatively central administration. Not adjust- the school thinking of the chairs as optimistic person but it does get ing easily is a kind way of saying it the enemy. He’d been warned about me down. in some cases. And there’s a big us and he took the warning to confusion right now because there heart. And it has not been an easy It sounds like that the College, are three different kinds of chair adjustment between chairs and since you’ve been here, is a very contracts: the old guys who have him; it’s still not in some cases. different place but, and we really their former contracts, the new And—God, I’m just tired of all the haven’t gotten this and maybe guys who have a much different anger, I really am, because I’m not that’s what we could save for— and less binding contract, and the an angry person. but it sounds like your depart- lib art, the gen ed contracts which ment, I don’t want to say it’s an are different again from the others. How do you account for the island, but it sounds like you’ve There’s also a lot of problems about growth? Like why is Columbia— maintained.. what’s happening with the general I don’t know, I don’t think anybody No, it’s an island. education program, which is being knows, really. I mean, there are as developed much more carefully many theories as there are people. ...the traditions of the depart- than it ever was before. I mean, you We’re good. We’re less expensive ment, even with its own growth, cannot any longer take what I like than any other private school in the have maintained to call Advanced Basketweaving as state, we’re centered on the arts and We drive ourselves crazy with the a general studies course, which was management and all the concomi- overload. And we work many, many true in the ‘60s and the ‘70s, etc, tant virtues that go with it, and our hours a day and many, many hours when it was a hippie school. It’s a reputation has just grown exponen- a week. But yeah, we are basically big adjustment; it’s a big change. tially over the last fifteen, twenty known as an island by most of the And some people are trying to drag years because we’re good. We are rest of the College. And walking us, kicking and screaming, back against all of the patterns of growth into this building is very different into the nineteenth century and in colleges and universities across than walking into any of the other some people are trying to drag us, the country. I don’t think we can buildings; not now, there’s nobody kicking and screaming, into the continue counting on it, but we’ve here. But although we don’t have twenty-first century. And it’s been saying that for ten years and it any particular system, we do have a complicated and difficult and I still keeps on growing. The prob- belief in theater being an ensemble understand all the problems, it’s lem right now is if it continues art and that stretches to how we just that I don’t like them. growing, where are we going to put deal with ourselves, and with our them? What the College seems to students. Everyone is made to be doing at the moment is growing understand or made to believe that in terms of space, and equipment,

406 Sheldon Patinkin An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago

they are part of something larger school, and it’s a rule I knew more self-motivated. And if one than themselves and it’s what existed in most other schools that I works for you you stay there, if the everyone contributes that makes it never understood and still don’t other works for you you’re gonna work. Because that’s the only way understand: Our students are come here. We, for instance, get you can do things; it’s a collabora- allowed to audition on the outside almost all of the students who are tive art. while they are still students here. kicked out of DePaul after their Most schools will kick you out if first and second years and most of Collaborative as opposed to you do that, even during the them do really well here. perhaps maybe even competitive? summer. But we want them to start I mean, is that... getting those rejections now while And are there students that Oh, it’s competitive too. they’re cushioned maybe need more structure and things... It’s competitive too? So they can come back home Yes, and they go away, yeah... Oh yeah, there’s a lot of crying and... when the cast lists go up, things Yeah. ...they go there. like that. But we also try as much ...and they should. It’s not that as possible to run the department What happens when they get the we’re not structured, we are struc- as a school that is modeled on how r ole, on the occasion when they tured, but, well, one of the things the real world of the profession do? is we do not, in any way, encourage works. We have rules here that are Oh, they do. We let them. guruism. like the rules in the real world, like if you don’t show up for an audi- And then you let them... What does that mean? tion and don’t cancel, you can’t Yes, unless it’s a long-standing Most theater departments, a teacher audition for another show for a interference with class work. Then has followers. We want them to year, which is an Equity rule. And they either take an incomplete or take as many of the teachers as they if you, we have rules like: If you they don’t take the job. But if it’s a possibly can while they’re here to turn down a role that you do not commercial or industrial or stuff get everybody’s experience and feel is commensurate with your like that, or a show, office rehearsal, make their own system out of it, talent, you can’t be in another show it’s an hour in the evening where it because no one system works for here. Things like that. And the doesn’t matter to class work, yeah, anybody but the person who uses kids pick it up; they pick it up the teacher will say, “Fine, I’m jeal- it. pretty fast. And the ones that don’t, ous but go ahead.” Oh no, we defi- don’t make it. nitely allow, we encourage it. As a And that must work well with result of which we’ve got literally that idea of the working profes- So regardless, you’re an open dozens of our students, recent sional where maybe egos, I mean admission, but standards—you students, working around town. they’re out there, they’re doing instill the professional standards And all of our tech and design it. from the get-go for everybody? students are working. But, you know, there are a lot of Oh yeah, we have to accept them, egos here but nobody is looking to but we don’t have to keep them. Do you get a lot of transfers from be a guru. I don’t know. That’s not part of open admissions. other departments? What’s the And all of our shows are cast by feedback you have? OK, it is June the seventeenth, auditions. Nobody’s appointed a Yes, departments no, we get... 1998 and we are continuing the role, which is also different from interview with Sheldon Patinkin. most schools. Other schools I meant, not First of all, if you could talk to departments, other departments about what have been your major Oh really, how is that different? of theater in other, what’s the achievements at Columbia or In most schools a lot of casting is feedback you get from those highlights of your time here. done by, “This person has to have students? Oh, I think the whole eighteen this role, this person have this role, Well, most theater departments are years is a highlight. Well, when I this person needs to work on this.” very rigid about the process and took over the department eighteen And also, unlike almost every other how you proceed in it. Ours is years ago it basically wasn’t struc- much more, not totally, but much

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tured above the second year. And as the mini classes at the Second semester for the last four semesters. there really weren’t very many City Training Center. So we do an enormous amount of students who were sticking around shows here. for more than two years. And over The only transferable credits that the first three or four years we got a Second City accepts? What about you? Do you have four year program structured for Basically, yeah. Well, that’s because time to do outside production, acting concentration, directing our improv teachers are all on the directing? concentration, for all the various faculty there and I’ve been with Well, let’s see: I’m the Artistic concentrations that we have in since its beginning. Consultant to the Second City, department, which are acting, And a lot of my, a lot of the tech- which means that I’m consulted directing, set design, costume niques I use for teaching acting about various things that are going design, lighting design, tech, play- were developed in Second City, as a on, and I watch previews of all writing; I think that’s it. And we matter of fact. We’ve grown from, I their shows. I am on the faculty of have since added a general design don’t know, eighty majors in the Lyric Opera Center for major rather than concentrating on Theater and Music together to five American Artists, where I teach one of the specific areas of design. hundred, six hundred, whatever it Acting and direct occasional stage We have now added a—what we is. And one of the things that I concerts, operas for that. I usually call Theater Lite, which is a BA in really liked that we used to do that direct one show a year out of the Theater without a concentration, we’re gonna start to do again next department and a show every other where they take courses of various season is have guest artists in our year in the department. areas of it. shows from among the professional people in town. The second year Now do you have to stay, I mean L-I-T-E? here we had the Remains Company, does it have to be pretty much in Yeah. people from Steppenwolf and the Chicago area? Because you Under the Wedding and a lot of said you haven’t taken a sabbati- OK. No fat? people and a lot of glitz for a cal or... We only call it that among production of The Women that we I don’t accept work out of town ourselves, but it’s not published. did. And that, plus doing a new anymore. Well, that’s, I can’t say And we’ve now developed three musical by the guys who wrote that’s absolutely true, because with minors, one in directing and vari- Grease that nobody else would do, the Lyric Opera Center I directed ous ones in design and in playwrit- certainly put us on the map, we got our concert stage and some ing. The first year here, my first a lot of publicity out of that, that [Carmen image] in a thing which year here, I realized that for the was my purpose. But now the we did in Rockford, but that was a most part the students were students are asking for the guest car trip. No, I prefer not to... hermetically sealed in their classes artists again, not for reasons of and that there was nothing else, no publicity, we don’t need to grow, I A boring car trip. other way to see their work. So I don’t know where we’d put very Well, yeah, it didn’t take that long. instituted what we call much else anyway, but because they We only had to go out there four Performance Week, where they want the experience of working times altogether including the final perform the final scenes from their with professionals. So we are concert. We’re doing it again at acting classes and directing classes pulling people out of our faculty Grant Park this summer. And I’m in front of the other students. We and putting them into shows. Our writing a textbook for my New have developed an enormous Stage faculty have always basically been School Theater History class. And Combat program where students the directors of our main season right now I’m preparing a text for can get certified and are therefore shows. Another thing that has, that which I’m co-direct- able to teach it and professionally I’m really proud of is our directing ing here next Spring. I can stay stage combats of various kinds. We program, which has grown from very busy. I also frequently watch have formed Amini Second City three students taking one semester final rehearsals and more previews unit for developing improvisational of directing from anywhere from of shows being directed by friends techniques and our classes in the fifteen to twenty students a semes- who are in town who ask me to Second City technique are accepted ter. And in order to graduate with a come in and talk to them after- directing concentration they have to had directed four shows, one a

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ward. I just got a call from why he wants them now, since I’m considered to be reasonable. I Steppenwolf about the new show they’re much more than they were am on the Academic Affairs that’s opening in the studio. And I eighteen years ago in terms of what Committee because I want to be. don’t have much free time. has to be done for the government, That’s the one committee I’m on and what has to be done for the that actually gets work done Do you find that that is neces- office, and how many committees instead of just talking about sary to keep—I guess what I’m he’s gonna be on. I think I’m on process all the time. asking is, you know, would you six. Unlike most other chairs, I ever allow this job here to teach a lot. I teach three to four What does that, why did you want become so you couldn’t do the classes a semester and everyone to be on that one and... opposite work? It has to... knows that. And I also do a lot of I didn’t know I wanted to be on it The faculty feels that way. If this is work on the outside, etc., etc., etc. until I got on it. We really get a lot all we do we get too hermetically So everyone is understanding of the of work done. It’s excellent, I’m sealed in. And I couldn’t do it that fact that I can’t make every meet- pleased. I don’t think I’ve missed way anyway. I’m capable of saying ing I’m supposed to be at. And it’s more than two meetings in two no nearly often enough. I just think never because I just don’t want to years of that. it’s a really good department and go; it’s always because I’ve got I’m really proud of it. I’m proud of something that I must do that’s And can you point to some exam- our faculty. Our students are work- part of my job, either here or else- ples of what you’ve gotten done ing. Our graduates are working, a where. on that committee? lot of them. We don’t have any We deal with all questions that stars but we have people who are And will that understanding, I come from the Curriculum working regularly. All of our tech mean, do you see that as the Committee about Academic Affairs. and design students get work all school grows, making, tailoring And we spent a long time last year the time. They do so many shows things to specific individuals, developing a job description for a they get an enormous amount of become harder? new dean that got turned down by experience, you know, really ready If not, I leave. It’s as simple as that. the Council, as we knew it would. to go out there. And just in general If, well, as I’ve said to Bert Gall, We deal with anything that they I’m really pleased with what goes Caroline Latta last year when it was want to throw at us, basically. If on here. And I’m also, by the way, really getting intense around here, there’s a question about it that is in very pleased that Theater and “I’m starting to feel like I should any way affecting how the academ- Music are split into two separate be teaching less so that I can be ics of the school work it comes to departments. It took eighteen available for more committee meet- our council. And we don’t talk years. ings. And if that is the case, I don’t about process; we talk about the want to be here anymore.” problem. I’ve got a three-page list Why did you feel that was impor- of what we accomplished last year, tant? Do you, do you think that feeling which you can get off of the Because I didn’t have, although we comes from other people’s expec- Internet. What else am I on? I’m were the Theater/Music tations well... on the Sabbatical Committee which Department and I was the chair of No, it just came from how many is, of course, ironic, and that only the Theater/Music Department, I committees I was on and how meets twice a year, so I said OK to had never had anything to do with much paperwork was being asked that. And for reasons I’m not quite the music program and I’ve always of everybody. sure of I was asked to become part felt that it was a sham and occa- of the Executive Committee of the sional inconvenience. And I think And are you asked to be on those Council this next year and I am it’s just more honest this way. The committees or are you told to be now the Vice President of the reason it hasn’t happened up until on those committees? Do you Council. I was told by Richard now is up until now Bill Russo have control over this? Woodbury, who is the President, hasn’t been willing to be called a Well, yes and no. I could say no. that that means meeting for an chair because he didn’t want the All chairs have to be on a certain hour or so before the Council meet- added responsibilities. I don’t know number of committees, it’s part of ings or after the Council meetings the job description at this point. I am on the College Council because

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and being responsible for making And it sounds like you’re comfort- sure that the coffee is there. If that’s able, for the most part, with the all it is, that’s OK. If it becomes fluidity or the ability to make more than that I will resign. What differing demands as they come else am I on? I was on Search up. Committee for the new chair of the Comfortable? Well, we know how Film Department, which took us to do it. We do it but it’s, really, two years to hire: Ira Abrams, who we are a crisis center. It gets worse got fired in three months. That right before Christmas when every- scandal is still going on. So I refuse body goes into predepression and to be on any other Search it’s very difficult among the seniors Committees ever, although I think during the last two months of the I will volunteer to be on the Search Spring semester of their undergrad- Committee for the new President. I uate years. There’s a lot of crying won’t say why because this is and hair tearing and concern and public. All I will say is that I was changes in personality. There are not on the Search Committee for not very many faculty crises. Those the last new President. What else? we work out pretty easily, pretty well. You know, there’s certain Well, maybe you could talk about, people who are always in crisis, you as well, any crisis that your know about them. We’re prepared department made it through, or as much as you can be. But I have things been fairly smooth wouldn’t still be here if this were a with you at the helm for eighteen place that was constantly in years or the College, or you? torment. As I’m sure I said last We’re dealing with theater people. time, when I took the job I said if I liked it I’d keep it for five years. There’s always a crisis? But I really do like it. I just don’t Exactly. We exist on a, “We’ll fix love what I have to do outside of this one next because this is the one the department most of the time. that came up next.” It is, for instance, very hard to have a five- And is that becoming a bigger year plan for this department. We issue? change things about the curriculum Yes. pretty much every semester; certainly every year. We drive them How, to change the subject not crazy periodically because we’re so subtly, but you said that changing things that are already in curriculum can change semester print. But we’re very, very aware of to semester depending on... the specific needs of the students What gets accomplished in a and they change. There’s no pun particular class? Frequently we’re intended here but the complexion redoing the whole thing; the whole of the student body changes, has College has to rewrite their course changed enormously over these last descriptions over the Summer and eighteen years, and has required Fall. And we’re going to take constant adjustment. What does advantage of that and make sure not change here very much at all is there’s a... our faculty. We keep them; they like being here.

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