Enemies of the People? the 2017 Walter

Home , Andre Bauer, Brian Stelter, Jeffrey Lord, Katy Tur

An edited transcript of a panel moderated by Lear Center Director Marty Kaplan.

April 2017 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER THE WALTER CRONKITE AWARD The Norman Lear Center is a nonpartisan research and public policy center that The Walter Cronkite Award For Excellence In Television Political Journalism studies the social, political, economic and cultural impact of entertainment on encourages and showcases substantive and innovative coverage that the world. The Lear Center translates its findings into action through testimony, informs viewers about their electoral choices. Administered by the Norman journalism, strategic research and innovative public outreach campaigns. On Lear Center at the Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism campus, from its base in the USC Annenberg School for Communication & of the University of Southern California, the award recognizes television Journalism, the Lear Center builds bridges between schools and disciplines journalism that helps viewers understand who the candidates are; what the whose faculty study aspects of entertainment, media and culture. Beyond issues and ballot propositions are; how electoral choices will affect their campus, it bridges the gap between the entertainment industry and academia, lives; how to assess campaign information, including advertising; and how and between them and the public. Through scholarship and research; through to register, vote and make their own voices heard. For more information on its conferences, public events and publications; and in its attempts to the award, please visit: www.cronkiteaward.org. illuminate and repair the world, the Lear Center works to be at the forefront of discussion and practice in the field. For more information, please visit: Watch the entire video of this conversation at: www.learcenter.org. https://youtu.be/hLjHmim5ejI

PARTICIPANTS 2017 Winners, Individual Achivement Jorge Ramos, Univision/Fusion Jake Tapper, CNN Katy Tur, NBC/MSNBC

2017 Winner, National Television Program CNN’s Reliable Sources with Brian Stelter

The panel was moderated by Marty Kaplan, director of the Norman Lear Center

The event was held at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., on April 28, 2017.

www.learcenter.org 2 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

to come up and grapple with questions about trust and legitimacy, about fake news and real journalism, about the assault on the free press in an age of alt truth. Then we’ll ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE serve lunch. Yes, we’ll actually feed you, and we’ll invite each of our winners to come up and accept their awards.

Marty Kaplan: Welcome to the 9th biennial Walter Cronkite Joining me to present them will be my colleague at the Awards for Excellence in Television Political Journalism. I’m USC Annenberg School, Judy Muller, and my colleague at Marty Kaplan. I’m on the faculty of the Annenberg School for the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Communication and Journalism at the University of Southern Pennsylvania, Kathleen Hall Jamieson. California, where I’m the director of the Norman Lear Center, which has administered these awards since Walter Cronkite And winners, if you are as succinct in accepting your awards gave out the first ones here in Washington in 2001. as you are on the air, we’ll get you out of here in time to get back to work or to travel home or to pick up your sequins and If you’re with us on C-SPAN or Facebook Live, welcome to you, cummerbunds at the dry cleaners. too, from the National Press Club in Washington. If you’re watching to see the prom dresses and movie stars or absence So to introduce our panel, I want to show you some clips of them, that’s the other media gathering in Washington this from their winning entries in the context of Walter Cronkite’s weekend, but please do stay with us. legacy. Cronkite’s signature sign-off, “That’s the way it is,” avows that there is a way it is. It attests to the existence of Looking around this room, I see plenty of glamour right reality, the reality of truth, the truth of evidence. But why here, in the Middle English root meaning of “glamour” — do these values matter? What difference does excellence in learning, knowledge, insight. And if you believe that’s the television political journalism make? actual etymology of “glamour,” then you’d bear witness to the epistemological loopiness of something called “alternative (Video plays) facts,” which is a wrong that good journalism tries to right. Walter Cronkite: We are not intelligent enough. We’re Today’s award winners and networks work at networks not educated well enough to perform the necessary act of and stations across the country. I see a number of other selecting our leaders for the future. We have got to improve distinguished guests whom I’d like to recognize. You know that situation, and it’s going to be, to a large degree, up to us who you are. in television and radio and broadcasting to get that job done. If we fail at that, our democracy, our republic is, I think, in Here’s how today will go. First, before we present the serious danger. trophies, I’ll ask the winners in our national award categories

www.learcenter.org 3 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

***** this week, ABC News-Washington Post, that showed that 32 percent of the country believes that President Obama Marty Kaplan: So we have the pleasure of the winners in our spied on Donald Trump and his campaign, and 52 percent national categories, winning for individual achievement in of Republicans believe that. It doesn’t matter that Paul Ryan national journalism, Jorge Ramos, Jake Tapper and Katy Tur, says there’s no evidence of that, or James Comey or even and the winner for national network news program is CNN’s Devin Nunes, all three of whom have said that the claim— Reliable Sources, with host Brian Stelter. You just welcomed the tweets that President Trump made have no basis in fact them warmly, but why not do it again? or evidence.

In a little while, they’ll be given their trophies and will have a So undermining us allows him to say or do whatever he wants chance to thank and say what else they want to say, but, right and pick off enough people to make ineffective the checks now, I would love to dig into what we’ve just been talking or balances that we attempt to provide. Not just on wild, about and the life that we are living. And so I’ll just start outlandish claims that, you know, might not actually mean by noting a contrast between what Walter Cronkite said in that much substantively, such as this one against President that opening, in which he described the press as the allies Obama. But what he wants to do with this country, which, of democracy, the protectors of our freedom, the key role in I’m sure I speak for everybody, we want to cover in a fair and making the public able to choose its leaders, and then at the impartial way, but this other stuff keeps getting in the way end, the press as the enemies of the people. of that.

So, what happened? What is going on when the press is called Katy Tur: Journalists aren’t biased, and if they do have the enemies of the people? What is the agenda, what is the biases, our job is to put those aside and report fairly. And consequence, and are you the enemies of the people? This if we have any bias, it’s a bias towards the facts. It’s not is a jump-all, but I’d love each of you to have a chance at it. because we’re rooting for Hillary Clinton or rooting for Donald Trump, whatever. We’re rooting for the democracy that we Jake Tapper: I’ll take it. Obviously, we’re not the enemies of live in, and that democracy, its foundation, is a set of shared the people, and I think it’s fairly obvious at this point that the principles, but also an adherence to truth. goal is to undermine any criticism. He, the President, and his team have waged campaigns differently, but with the same Make no mistake, Donald Trump is not the first President goal against legislative oversight, against the judicial branch. or candidate or politician to not like the press. There are But, obviously, most forcefully against us. And the goal is so longstanding tensions between us and those in power. He is that when we provide a check, that check that is so enshrined the first one to go so unabashedly and forcefully against us, in the First Amendment, it’s ineffective. to campaign against us. He was campaigning against Hillary Clinton, but really he was campaigning against us, which is We see that it is working, to a degree. There was a poll out what he admitted. He didn’t care that that was out there.

www.learcenter.org 4 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

He wanted that to be out there, because, as Jake was saying but largely from the Right. so eloquently, if we report something that is not friendly towards him, if he undercuts our credibility, if he diminishes So the ground was so fertile for someone to come along and us, he inoculates himself from that criticism and he can do take it as a subtext and turn it to text, to say bluntly what whatever he wants. others were saying softly. This idea of campaign against the press— we could see the groundwork for decades in the He didn’t appeal to the better demons of voters in this past, and for a confluence of reasons. It was Trump who took country. He appealed to their most base fears and their it to such a different level. most base frustrations and angers. And that worked for him, partially because they didn’t have a trust in the press any Marty Kaplan: But Jorge Ramos, “enemies of the people” is longer, partially because they were sick of Washington. They not “You’re biased, you’re liberal.” It’s something that cuts felt left behind, and he got up there and he said outrageous deeper. things. He refused to apologize for it, and he allowed people to feel like they can take control of their lives again, they can Jorge Ramos: He was criticizing us because we were do what they want again, they can yell at the top of their lungs criticizing him. I think the first responsibility that we have as if they want and somebody will finally hear them. Where that journalists is to reflect reality as it is, not as we wish it would goes from here, well, that’s a good question for the rest of be. I understand that. But then there’s a second level. I think this panel. the most important social responsibility that we have is to challenge and to question those who are in power. So if we Brian Stelter: Don’t look at me on that one. But I was glad have a President who lies, if we have a President who made to be reminded of that sound bite where he says, “I’m not racist, sexist and xenophobic remarks, if we have a President fighting Clinton. I’m fighting you. I’m embattling you.” I think who criticizes judges and the press, if we have a President we’ve seen that again even this week, in some ways, that the who behaved like a bully during the campaign, then we President wants a war with the press, and some of his aides cannot remain neutral. have described him that way. I think on certain occasions, we have to take a stand, and it Of course, the ground was very fertile for this in June of 2015. is my position that when it comes to racism, discrimination, It’s why the first time I saw you on the campaign trail two corruption, public lies, dictatorships and devaluation of weeks after Trump announced up in New Hampshire, he was human rights, we have to take a stand. Walter Cronkite did already picking on you in the crowd, already calling you out it. I know that many people say that he was completely right by name and complaining about the press. This was when he in the middle. Well, he was not. During the Second World was still having small events, before he was having rallies. War and during the Civil Rights movement, he took a stand. I The ground was fertile for it because of decades of criticism have my quotes. I’ll show them to you later. of the press, mostly from the Right. Sometimes from the Left,

www.learcenter.org 5 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

Look, if we remain neutral with Trump, I think we are Pennsylvania. normalizing his behavior. And he’s not an example, not even for schoolchildren. And I think it is our responsibility to be Katy Tur: Yeah. critical of him. That’s it. That’s why we are journalists. That’s the role of journalism, I think. Brian Stelter: I mean, all of this evidence — we’ve all accumulated the evidence of his love of journalists when it’s Marty Kaplan: Is there a sense in which he’s not just convenient. criticizing your particular criticism of him, that he’s criticizing the enterprise of journalism, attempting to de-legitimize -- Katy Tur: Attention.

Brian Stelter: -- I think that’s a really important point, and, Brian Stelter: Love of attention. That’s a better word. you’re right, “enemies of the people” is so far beyond telling you to watch Fox, not CNN. “Enemies of the people,” which Jorge Ramos: But were we late to this criticism? I wonder if we he’s only said a couple of times, but did say out loud and were late, because this is nothing new. Everyone is criticizing on Twitter — that is so far beyond. It’s about dismissing the President Trump right now, and during the campaign, at the existence of a press that can report fairly on his Presidency. end, probably most journalists did it. But remember, on June Now, maybe because he hasn’t said it in recent weeks, we 16, 2015, he said that Mexican immigrants were criminals and shouldn’t take him at that word. drug traffickers and rapists, and the reaction was mute.

Jake Tapper: We can remind him. Katy Tur: No, that’s the reason why I’m on this campaign. It’s because I did stories about that. The reaction from maybe Brian Stelter: But it was used a couple of times. the general public was a little bit more mute, but — and you tell me from CNN’s perspective — we covered it quite a bit. Katy Tur: But it’s only insofar as it relates to him. This is not a free press that he hates doing journalism across the Jorge Ramos: But I didn’t see journalists criticizing him right board. He will uphold journalism when it benefits him. He at the beginning as forcefully. We were giving him tons of will retweet Washington Post articles, even though he says time. And I don’t think we were critical enough of President that the Washington Post is full of a bunch of liars. And same Trump at the beginning, especially when he was criticizing thing with The New York Times. He doesn’t hate the press. He Mexican immigrants. After that, when we saw that horrible hates fact-based coverage of him, period. video, Access Hollywood, things started to change. But at the beginning, I think we were not as critical as we should have Brian Stelter: He’s doing nine interviews this week that been. I’ve counted, including three together and another one tomorrow, and he’s bringing Don Dickerson on the plane in Brian Stelter: But you’re saying criticize. And I think, sitting

www.learcenter.org 6 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

over here, I would say report is what we’ve been doing. What now we’re on a list and I’m not going to keep going, but this most of the mainstream press has been doing is reporting, not going after CNN doesn’t offend me. It doesn’t hurt me. It’s criticizing. Yes, there has been a critical tone and many, many part of the “I want to de-legitimize my critics.” critical guests. And by the way, I think one of the benefits of 2016/2017 is the existence of hundreds of real news outlets By the way, at CNN we have an interesting role. Because we with different perspectives and different ways of going about are also the network that continually gets hammered from it. But I wouldn’t use the word “criticize” the way you do. the Left because we go out of our way to bring people who believe in President Trump onto our channel, sometimes as Jake Tapper: I think it’s fair to say that we — that all four of paid commentators. us — draw lines at different places and have different takes. Jorge’s show is different from my show, different from Katy, Brian Stelter: Wait, we’ve been criticized for that? different from Brian. We all have different views of these things, and I doubt that there’s any uniform way of looking at Jake Tapper: I don’t know if you’ve noticed, not a lot of President Trump. I probably draw a line at a different place Republican pundits in this town actually supported President that Jorge does, and that’s fine. And I respect his right to do Trump during the campaign. So we actually had to go out and what he does, and I assume he respects mine. find people like the Lieutenant Governor of South Carolina and the guy who managed his campaign in Pennsylvania — My general view of President Trump is that I cover him as I those sorts of voices. So we get it from both sides in that cover him, as I would cover any President. And when I feel respect. that there is behavior that violates norms of decency or truth, I will come out and say it, but I don’t view everything through Marty Kaplan: Do you think that having, but paying, that prism. surrogates whose job is to deliver the talking points of the administration — do you think that putting them in a co- Marty Kaplan: So when he says CNN is fake news, is that a equal position with everyone else on a panel is traditional character attack? What’s happening in that exchange? standards of journalism?

Jake Tapper: First of all, I should say that of all the things that Jake Tapper: Well, I don’t think that that’s — but we have, President Trump has said in the last year and a half, attacking I mean. We have people — Andre Bauer, who is a former CNN is very low on my list of what offended me personally. lieutenant governor of South Carolina, was on my show last I was far more personally offended when he made fun of the night. He’s a Trump supporter, but he doesn’t agree with disabled reporter. I was far more personally offended when everything Donald Trump does. he belittled the five and a half years that Senator John McCain spent in a POW camp. Those two instances, I should say, and Marty Kaplan: But there are others who do who are on not to mention, obviously, the Access Hollywood tape. And panels.

www.learcenter.org 7 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS • maybe sometimes sounds as though he or she is reciting Jake Tapper: Okay. I mean, you’d have to -- talking points and somebody who supports Donald Trump. I really, honestly, don’t see that much of a difference. Marty Kaplan: Jeffrey Lord. Jorge Ramos: And this raises the issue. It’s not only among Jake Tapper: Okay. Do I think he is the same as -- journalists, but in academia — on neutrality. Should we be neutral all the time with Trump? I don’t think we should. Let Marty Kaplan: Do you think paying him and others to be me do my homework. These are the quotes that I got from on these panels is what journalism at its best should be up Walter Cronkite, now that we’re right here with him. This is to? Or should the voices of criticism not be voices which you what he wrote. He said, early in 194. Walter Cronkite: “I can predict them bringing the White House line to the panel, reported a bombing raid over Germany. In my lead, I wrote instead bringing a point of view which is contrary to other that I had just come back from an assignment from hell. No people there? one attacked our stories because they lacked objectivity. If neutrality is the test of integrity in journalism, then we failed Jake Tapper: Without getting into any specific commentator, in our duty to accord the Nazis fair and balanced coverage.” I think that we live in a nation that has President Trump as This is Walter Cronkite. And then, during the Civil Rights President. One of the criticisms of the media, not without movement, he said -- some basis, is that we live in a bubble and that we were all shocked. Was it Meg Greenfield or Pauline Kael who said she Jake Tapper: He used the term “fair and balanced”? couldn’t believe George McGovern lost because she didn’t know anybody who voted for Nixon or something like that? Jorge Ramos: Yes.

Brian Stelter: Pauline, yeah. Jorge Ramos: “To afford the Nazis --”

Jake Tapper: It might have been Reagan. I forget who it was. Jake Tapper: About the Nazis. About the Nazis. But in any case, it’d be a lot easier if Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio had been the nominating head one, because Republican Jorge Ramos: That’s interesting. He said, “To accord the pundits in this town are more comfortable with that sort of Nazis fair and balanced coverage.” person. Jake Tapper: All right. I wondered where that came from. I think it is journalistic to go out and make an effort to hear from people who support President Trump. And, no, I don’t Jorge Ramos: Mr. Cronkite, what were you thinking? see really that much of a difference when it comes to having a Liberal Democratic pundit who shares his or her views and Then the second quote is really interesting. During the Civil

www.learcenter.org 8 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

Rights movement, he wrote, “Basic human decency—” as Jake Tapper: On that issue, but, for instance -- you were mentioning, “Basic human decency was making editorial neutrality futile. Not since World War II had right Jorge Ramos: Racism. and wrong seemed so clear cut, but no amount of editorial neutrality could now rescue the South from itself.” So in other Jake Tapper: But you don’t assume that just because he words, Walter Cronkite, when it comes to Vietnam, when it takes a position on -- comes to the Second World War, when it comes to the Civil Rights movement, he took a stand. He put neutrality aside, Jorge Ramos: Korea. because neutrality was not an option. I know this is debatable and controversial. Jake Tapper: -- Korea or NAFTA, that he’s wrong.

Jake Tapper: Let me ask you, if I may. Jorge Ramos: Absolutely not.

Jorge Ramos: Please. Jake Tapper: Okay. That’s all.

Jake Tapper: I’m sorry. So let me ask you -- Jorge Ramos: But when it comes to racism, his remarks about women, about immigrants; yes, I think we have to take Marty Kaplan: Some of these people have run panels. a stand.

Jake Tapper: I’m sorry. I’m used to being in the middle chair. Katy Tur: But Cronkite, in cutting through and taking a position and not being neutral in those circumstances. I think Marty Kaplan: I was hoping this would happen. the reason he did cut through and the reason somebody like Edward R. Murrow cut through, and the other examples you Jake Tapper: Do you view the position that the media should can pull from history of somebody — a journalist — taking a not be neutral towards President Trump? Do you view every stand and having it resonate, is because the level of rhetoric action and every policy position he takes that way? I don’t from everybody wasn’t up here all the time. You turn on think you do, based on your coverage. anything, and the level of vitriol against Donald Trump is always up here, no matter what he says. It’s very hard to cut Jorge Ramos: No, no, no, absolutely. We counted, for through that, to say, “No, no, no, this, what he’s saying here, instance, in the last 100 days, 44 times in which President actually is appalling or actually is very dangerous or really is Trump or his administration criminalized or demonized important,” because everything is already here, so we can’t immigrants. Of course, that’s an issue that we care a lot hear it. about. So, yes, I think we have to. Jake Tapper: So when he talks about, for instance, breaking

www.learcenter.org 9 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

up the Ninth Circuit Court and people on Twitter are like, just factual, “Here’s what Donald Trump said” or “the sky is “Oh, my God, he’s a dictator,” and then, you know, you read -- blue,” and somebody tweeted back at me, “Who are you to decide the facts? We decide the facts.” I said, “No, you do Katy Tur: Do any research, he can’t -- not decide the facts. The facts are facts. Nobody decides them.” But it was emblematic of exactly what we were facing Jake Tapper: -- on Google, and you’re like, “Oh, this has on the campaign trail every day. been -- When you would interview Trump supporters, they did not Katy Tur: He can’t do that. care what we said. They did not care. They didn’t want to hear it. They didn’t care that Donald Trump was inconsistent. Jake Tapper: -- a Conservative thing that they’ve talked They don’t care if he builds the wall or not, for the most part. about for decades.” They don’t care what he does. They believed that when he got into office —and they still largely believe this — that he will Katy Tur: Yeah. make the decisions that are best for the country. So facts are just these little wisps of things in the wind that blow away. Jake Tapper: And that’s an important point for all. Marty Kaplan: If that’s the case, Brian, why bother correcting Katy Tur: Yeah. facts?

Jake Tapper: I’m sure everybody here agrees, which is Brian Stelter: Do I have to defend the facts? that the people who are labeling us the enemies of the people, we can’t give them the ammunition. We have to be Brian Stelter: Well, I don’t think we’re in a post-fact world reasoned. When things are appalling, they’re appalling. But or a post-factcheck world or a post-truth world. I think we’re not everything is appalling, because if everything is a crisis, only in that world if all of us in this room agree to be and nothing is a crisis. if everybody else in every other room agrees to be. There are alternative realities, though. There are, to put it simply, Marty Kaplan: Let me try something out that is appalling all two alternative realities. And then to be more honest about the time, about which being neutral is dangerous notionally, it, many, many alternative realities. I think what you’re and that’s the idea that facts don’t matter, that you can make describing about a certain kind of Trump supporter who things up. is with him no matter what. That’s an emotional, guttural reaction -- Jake Tapper: Everything blurs together. Katy Tur: Exactly. Katy Tur: Everything blurs together. And I tweeted something

www.learcenter.org 10 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

Brian Stelter: -- that I think we don’t do a good job always President Trump says something about the U.S. Armada being expressing on television. headed to the Korean peninsula and it turns out it’s not, that becomes a major issue in South Korea during their election. Katy Tur: Uh-huh. Because when President Trump suggests that vaccines cause autism despite the fact that the medical community — the Brian Stelter: Actually, having pro-Trump commentators respected medical and scientific community say, “That’s not tries to get at that issue by understanding the emotional true. Please don’t say that, or else people are going to stop reactions to any President, but right now, President Trump. getting their kids immunized” — that could literally have a There were similarities with some supporters of Obama life-or-death consequence. in 2009, with him no matter what. But right now it’s about Trump. And I think I’m finding myself on television trying So facts do matter, and it’s okay that some people don’t to figure out a way to convey it’s not always about the very believe them. Eighteen percent of the public thinks that specific policy debates we’re having. It’s sometimes about they’ve seen a ghost. Good luck. But the idea that we are the emotional reactions to seeing him in the Oval Office, supposed to be beholden to people who don’t have respect wanting him to be there. for empirical data or empirical facts is ludicrous.

So I find myself thinking about that. But there’s a post-truth, Marty Kaplan: But does it strike you that there is a tacit post-fact: it’s only if we all allow it to be. Just because there’s campaign to de-legitimize the enterprise of fact finding, of an alternative reality that we might label as the Alex Jones verification, of evidence? Infowars bubble — just because those folks live with a different set of facts, doesn’t mean that we’re post-fact as a Jake Tapper: Of course. That’s what fake news is all about. society. That’s the whole point.

Jake Tapper: There’s been a lot of attention on Trump Brian Stelter: Do you think folks wake up in the morning, supporters, and I think that’s good because the media does though, and say, “You know, I want to make sure I de- need to get outside the bubble. But they are a minority of the legitimize facts today”? I think they’re waking up, just electorate, not even just a minority of the American people or trying to get through the day, trying to put a few points on a minority of the world. They’re a minority of the electorate. the board, whether that’s the Trump Administration or an And not all of them believe President Trump no matter what opponent. I don’t know if there’s a concerted effort to say he says. facts don’t matter --

Brian Stelter: Yeah. Jake Tapper: Not perhaps --

Jake Tapper: The reason why facts matter is because when Brian Stelter: -- but there are a lot of lies and misstatements

www.learcenter.org 11 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

and falsehoods being presented. Jake Tapper: And it’s a problem for him. In our new CNN poll, for a President. He’s already unpopular to an unprecedented Jorge Ramos: But then, at the end, when you’re checking degree in modern polling for a President within his first Facebook or Twitter or checking CNN or NBC, after a few 100 days. It’s staggering. And then we had a poll number. months, you know who’s telling the truth and who’s not telling I think it was last night or the night before. The percentage the truth. And then we are measuring — from now, we know of Americans who think that President Trump is honest and how to measure Trump. When he lies and he’s lying about not trustworthy is 37 percent. That’s fewer than the percentage only President Obama, but about 5 million immigrants voting, that voted for him. which is ridiculous, of course, or any other -- Jake Tapper: That is a horrible number for a President. And Jake Tapper: They voted in all the wrong states. if I were him or on his team, I would really work on stopping with the falsehoods, stopping with the wild claims, because Jorge Ramos: Exactly. that can be rebuilt. That can be regained. The American people are a forgiving people. That’s a nice term for it. Jake Tapper: It’s a horrible conspiracy. Marty Kaplan: So Gallup polls trust in TV news -- Jorge Ramos: Actually, if you take away all the kids who are under 18, it would be almost half the undocumented Jake Tapper: Also very low. Lower, probably. population went to vote. Marty Kaplan: -- and 21 percent said that they have quite a Jake Tapper: Quite an effort. lot or a great deal of trust in TV news.

Jorge Ramos: But, now, it’s a matter of credibility. So, yeah, Jake Tapper: I think of the media as -- I know that we’re concerned about fake news. The fact is that you do trust some journalists, I hope, and that they’re telling Marty Kaplan: Congress was at 9. you the truth. But then when it comes to the credibility of President Trump, it’s really difficult. Because if he decides to Jake Tapper: Well, here’s the thing about that. get into a war with North Korea, do we trust the President? Just let’s remember what happened with George W. Bush Jake Tapper: Congress is at 9, but the reelection rate of and when there were no weapons of mass destruction. We’re Congress is like 96 percent. And I think that’s the issue -- forgetting that the country completely changed, even though he was not telling the truth. What happens with Donald Marty Kaplan: You don’t have gerrymandering in the Trump now if he decides to bomb Syria? It’s very dangerous. networks.

www.learcenter.org 12 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

Jake Tapper: I think the issue is a lot of people hate the in some cases, has been fantastic for the media. In other media. But they have their channels or their stations that cases, it’s been bad, because if you have a machine that they watch. allows you to convey every emotion every moment you have one, I don’t think it’s good for when President Trump gives Katy Tur: Yeah, the media is a very broad brush. I mean, it into that impulse. And I don’t think it’s good when reporters can go for a whole host of things. give into that impulse.

Brian Stelter: Everyone trusts some media. They just don’t There are a lot of reasons why the media still has a lot of work trust the same media. You mentioned, Jorge, hopefully to do, and we need to make sure that when we do reports everyone here trusts some journalists. Even the most loyal on President Trump and his administration, or anyone, but supporter of President Trump, who thinks CNN is either the especially him because he has so targeted us, every word, Clinton or the Communist News Network, does trust Fox every letter needs to be right. We need to be 100 percent or does trust Breitbart or does trust Infowars. So everyone right. We have made sure that we gave the administration trusts some media, and what I find myself wanting to do more ample time to respond to the story. I think it’s just a very of is figuring out what to do to reach across various aisles perilous time, and we need to rise to the occasion. and figure out how to improve trust between those different bubbles or those different silos. Katy Tur: We also need to moderate ourselves a little bit and make sure that we are not, as I said earlier, being alarmist Jake Tapper: Some of it’s our fault, though, don’t you think? about every little thing. But I think it goes a little bit deeper than just us trying to rebuild our trust. It’s kind of like trying Brian Stelter: Yeah. to teach a 17-year-old to read. You’ve got to teach a 3-year- old to read and -- or 4, whatever. Four? I don’t have kids. Jake Tapper: Some of the distrust of the media is the media’s Four? fault. I think that’s fair to say. Jake Tapper: It’s close enough. Marty Kaplan: What about it? Katy Tur: Thank you. No, but we should be teaching Jake Tapper: There have been, in the last decade alone, journalism in school, really making an effort to teach what a number of scandals where people in the media were not journalism is in history classes and civics classes, try to telling the truth -- Jayson Blair, et cetera, Judith Miller. I convey it. think that election coverage in general — we all were way too reliant on polling that was faulty. There is a reason for the Brian Stelter: Because they’ve hit the media now. public to have skepticism in the media. I think, by the way, that Twitter — and I’m not absolving myself of this — Twitter, Katy Tur: Media literacy— I’m not the first one to say it.

www.learcenter.org 13 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

Cronkite said this, it was at the ‘72 convention, that people Jake Tapper: Something like that. The interview about don’t understand the media. They don’t read enough. They Judge Curiel, it was in June, and it was the last time he let can’t just turn on the television; they’ve got to get out there me interview him. and read not only the front page of The New York Times, but the opinion pages as well to find out all viewpoints on Brian Stelter: I was about to ask. a certain subject. And it should be taught to our children so they understand why it is an important part of our democracy. Jake Tapper: Yeah, it was the last time, and also — That’s how we are going to rebuild our trust. It’s got to go from the bottom up, and we’ve got to be a shining example. Katy Tur: At least you made it to June. I didn’t get that far.

Marty Kaplan: So there were instances in that video and Jake Tapper: He had made a comment to The Wall Street in your coverage of the last 17 months, or longer now, when Journal the night before about how Judge Curiel couldn’t be you’re interviewing the President, for example, and he says fair because he was Mexican, even though Judge Curiel is something which is not true. What do you do? American and from Indiana, obviously of Mexican heritage. I came with a sheet of questions, but I knew that was the most Katy Tur: I tended to stop and try to get him to explain where important question, because it was just such an outrageous he got that information, or to say, “Hey, that’s not true,” as comment and, on its face, racist — or xenophobic. I guess, you saw just there. The thing about Trump — and Jake, you technically, it was xenophobic. I had to get through it, and — interviewed him a number of times as well. He’s slippery. He like Katy said — I wouldn’t call it slippery, though. It’s more just won’t answer a question. He’ll spin and spin and spin like a barge. and start going on these tangents. It’s a word salad that he’ll throw at you. Katy Tur: Yeah, that’s probably a better way to describe it.

Jorge Ramos: But what do you do? Jake Tapper: You know, it’s just more like a battering ram.

Katy Tur: You continue to ask the question. You can spend Katy Tur: Yeah. the entire interview asking one question over and over again. Jake Tapper: Like he’ll interrupt and burst through. All Jake Tapper: Yeah. politicians have their own ways of avoiding questions, but I had to get to that question. It was just very important. By the Marty Kaplan: You followed up 23 times. way, afterwards, he was very lovely in person.

Katy Tur: Yeah. Katy Tur: Well, that’s what he would do. Like the press conference where he told me to be quiet, a few minutes later,

www.learcenter.org 14 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

he walks out, he looks at me, smiles and says, “Thank you.” instance, when we decided — it’s not easy to, as you I’m like, “Well, okay. Thank you.” He is a very personable experienced, talk to Trump. When we decided to talk to person one-on-one. Trump at the press conference, and we knew he was going to interrupt us completely, so we had a plan. We were going to Marty Kaplan: Does that mean it’s theater? be asking the questions standing up, not sitting down, with a microphone so everybody could listen, and then I would keep Katy Tur: I think, to a degree, it is theater. I think he on talking and asking my question until I finished, because understands ratings, and the Washington Post had a little otherwise he would say “Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me,” item about this over the weekend, which is, “Why would or he would interrupt me. That’s the only way. I get rid of Sean Spicer? He gets good ratings.” That is, fundamentally, the core of Donald Trump. Jake Tapper: And you did ultimately get to ask him a question, though, right? Brian Stelter: And the nature of the media. Jorge Ramos: As a matter — exactly. Being personable, I Jake Tapper: He likes the give and take. was ejected from the press conference and outside the room. Then came his press person, and then she told me, “Do you Katy Tur: He wants -- he likes. want to go back?” I said, “I’ll go back with the condition that he allows me to ask a question,” and then we spoke for Jake Tapper: He likes the give and take. almost ten minutes.

Katy Tur: He thinks it’s good. He does think it’s good theater. Jake Tapper: Yeah. That was good. It was a good exchange, He enjoys the sparring. He knows that it’s must-see TV. That’s also, as I recall. part of the reason why he kept doing press conferences all the time. That’s one of the reasons why his aides had to say, Jorge Ramos: And he said, “Welcome back,” and I said, “You need to stop this.” “Thank you very much.” So he was personal at the end.

Jorge Ramos: Maybe he’s personable. Now he’s concerned Marty Kaplan: So is there a sense in which he got the about the leader of North Korea, that he lost his dad when he nomination by gaming the business model of the news was 27. Actually, he’s not 27, but anyway -- industry.

Jake Tapper: He’s 33 now, but he was 27 when he lost his Katy Tur: I think that’s a fair argument. dad. Marty Kaplan: Knowing how dependent it is on selling Jorge Ramos: Well, the important thing, when — for eyeballs to advertisers, and he was reliably entertaining, and,

www.learcenter.org 15 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

therefore, he didn’t have to pay for media, he was relentlessly Brian Stelter: Yeah. able to get it? Jake Tapper: He did interviews. He agreed to do interviews. Katy Tur: I think that is a fair estimate of what his strategy He stopped doing them after he got the nomination as much. was, and he said it. He said as long as you’re interesting, the But he did interviews, and we would beg for Marco Rubio eyes will watch you. and Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz and all the others to come on television, and they wouldn’t do it. They did it in a very old- Marty Kaplan: So what do you do about that? school way, the old model of ‘on our time, on our terms, seven minutes when we have a message we want to get out Katy Tur: That’s a good question and that’s above my pay there.’ And meanwhile Trump was appearing on all five or six grade. Sunday shows at a time.

Brian Stelter: There were 16 Republican candidates that Brian Stelter: And that was the message. didn’t learn from it. And a couple of Democratic candidates that didn’t learn from it, and I will never understand. Jake Tapper: But he was going on almost as many television shows as every other Republican combined was doing Katy Tur: Yeah, but what are they going to do? that Sunday. I don’t even think it’s about necessarily being interesting or gaming the system by being provocative, Marty Kaplan: What would it look like if they had learned it? although that certainly was part of his appeal. Although I think that actually is just also who he is. It’s showing up. Katy Tur: They’re going to come out and start saying more It’s showing up. By the way, those other guys were so busy outrageous things? raising money, and he was not, really. I mean, he subscribed to a new model of running for President, and everyone else Brian StelterI think Jake has a better answer than me. was really stuck doing the old model. Primetime rallies, interesting interviews, unpredictable comments. Marty Kaplan: So Brian, on the clip that we ended with, you were talking about the press regaining its trust. What good Jake Tapper: No, no, no, just to do — just to do interviews. ideas have you heard?

Jake Tapper: Doing a Sunday show, I just have to say this Brian Stelter: Oh, this is the hard part. I think we were idea. It gets me so angry when people from competing discussing earlier some of the attributes —first and foremost, Republican campaigns complain about how much time just getting it right. Jake was referring to various scandals candidate Trump got. that have been receiving a lot of attention in the past 10, 15 years involving plagiarism and exaggerating and other sins of

www.learcenter.org 16 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

journalism. Those are real scandals, real failures, and then show, but really more than that. He wouldn’t have much to they are magnified by partisans and by folks who want to talk about otherwise. exploit that for political reasons. Marty Kaplan: Isn’t the President’s tweet an anti-media When you screw up in a big way, you’re giving those partisans show? ways to exploit it, and certainly we’ve seen President Trump try to do that, even with mistakes that were not significant Brian Stelter: In some ways, it is. And the criticism from the and were not worthy of being condemned for days and weeks President, it is a form of poison. And I say that because we on end. It is those basics about accuracy and about fairness, don’t know what the effects are. and I think the other thing we would all agree up here about is transparency. Even though all five of us probably have tweets Marty Kaplan: Did you say a form of poison? that we’d like to take back, I would like to think that, for the most part, social media has encouraged the industry to be Brian Stelter: A form of poison. When he says “enemies of more accessible and forthcoming and open. the people” up there, that is a form of poison, verbal poison, that trickles through the bloodstream. And I don’t think we It doesn’t just mean using Twitter and Facebook; it also know what the impact is yet. We’re starting to see it in polling means in the delivery and the presentation, Jake, of your — the divide between Republicans and everybody else with program, or Katy, in the afternoon, the way you speak to the regards to trust in media getting more and more severe. viewer. I think we’re seeing changes in the delivery of news. There will be other effects of these words. As we try to regain That’s, in part, influenced by social media and influenced by trust, I think we have to recognize how severe the challenge some of the sins of the past. These are maybe all small steps, is from folks that are, for their own selfish reasons, trying to but hopefully add up. erode it.

But I think we should acknowledge, before we talk about trust Marty Kaplan: Let me ask each of you: is it a form of poison? in media, there are concerted efforts to tear it down, and it’s not that I think people wake up in the morning, partisans on Katy Tur: I think we have to wait and see. either side, with a plot to do this. But there are websites that benefit from the tearing down of the press. Brian Stelter: I’m the media reporter.

Marty Kaplan: But monetizing it. Katy Tur: I think we need to just build our credibility back. I had all these thoughts while Brian was talking, and now I’ve Brian Stelter: Yeah, that’s right. There are business models blanked on all of them. What did you do to me? No, we’ve got to behind this. Think about Sean Hannity’s show. Sean Hannity’s build up and support our local news. Local news is incredibly show is effectively an anti-media show. It’s a media criticism important in this country, and it has been. If we think that

www.learcenter.org 17 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

our budgets have been slashed, oh, God, they’re bare-bones not expect the Democrats to do that job. It is our job. If we at local news departments. They barely have anybody to get don’t question the President, if we don’t question his lies, their shows on the air, and those are the people who are on if we don’t do it, who’s going to do it? It’s an uncomfortable the front lines, really talking to everyday Americans every position. day. Whereas we are in New York and Washington and Los Angeles and in more of these major cities. Brian Stelter: Well, you’re almost saying we’re a stand-in for the Democrats. B by supporting our local news ventures and encouraging people to consume both local news on television but their Jorge Ramos: No, no, no. No, we shouldn’t be partisan. I local papers and their institutions, we will benefit. We just was as tough with President Obama and with Hillary Clinton have to — as much as Donald Trump wants to take us down as I hope I was with Trump. We shouldn’t be partisan, but — we cannot go crazy about it all the time. We just need what I’m saying is that we — it is our role — sometimes I see to be even-keeled, brush it off, and move on, and don’t take the interviews on the BBC. Those British journalists are really the bait. Continue to report on the facts, be as fair as you tough on everyone. I think that’s our role. If we don’t do it, possibly can be, be partial to the truth, and don’t be alarmist nobody else is going to do it, and once we do it, then people when it’s unnecessary. will trust us. But if we don’t do it, people won’t trust us.

Jorge Ramos: May I disagree? Jake Tapper: I think that’s right, and I think we need to stand up for the facts and for the truth aggressively, whether Katy Tur: Sure. Democrats are lying or Republicans — I don’t think you’re disagreeing. Whether Democrats are lying or Republicans Jorge Ramos: I think we have to get it right. I think we have to are lying. I think one of the issues that some viewers might be precise and accurate, because if we make mistakes in that have is that they discern a much more adversarial approach area, then who’s going to trust us? So I think we can all agree —not by you. How do you say, “Broken promise,” in Spanish? with that. But then there’s a second level. And that second He would go after Barack Obama for his broken promise. level is that, again, the most important social responsibility that we have is to challenge the powerful. It is our role, and if Jorge Ramos: On deportations. we don’t do that, nobody else is going to do it. Jake Tapper: On deportations, immigration. They were not Katy Tur: Are you disagreeing with me? Because I don’t fans of yours. I can attest to that, or mine. But I think a lot of disagree with that at all. viewers think the press in general was not as adversarial with Obama or, really, probably even with George W. Bush as we Jorge Ramos: Well, no, no, no. What I’m saying is that our are now. position has to be much more aggressive, and we should

www.learcenter.org 18 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

Jorge Ramos: Yes. Aren’t we all struggling with the idea that there are these alternative universes? These — what were called “filter Jake Tapper: I don’t think that that’s an unfounded criticism. bubbles” five years ago, that are now filter prisons that folks I think that there are reasons for it, including the fact that lock themselves inside — some on the right, some on the there are more mendacities coming from this White House left, some in the purple, some in the orange, pick your color. in 100 days than I can remember coming from other White That folks increasingly are choosing to believe their own sets Houses in four or eight years. But that said, I think we should of facts. When they see a journalist challenging the President keep the attitude that we all have now, no matter who is — aggressively, it actually pushes them further into their own you know, for the Chelsea Clinton administration and for the corner. Oprah Winfrey administration. This is the part I don’t have the answers for, but I think we all Brian Stelter: Ivanka Trump. have that sense deep down inside that there is something really amiss. It’s partly social networks, it’s partly the Jake Tapper: Yeah, Ivanka Trump. polarization of media, it’s partly the Hannitys of the world that have created this environment where folks are locked in Jorge Ramos: I think, adversarial. I think we have to be on those cells. Not everyone though. the other side of power. In Spanish, there’s a beautiful word called contrapoder. It basically means we always have to be Jorge Ramos: You said nine interviews, right? He did nine on the other side of power, and if we have to choose to be interviews, President Trump, for this weekend? Count how friends or enemies of the President, I’d rather be an adversary. many of those interviews. I haven’t seen a single one.

Katy Tur: The news should not make you comfortable is Brian Stelter: Yeah. Yeah. what you’re saying. We are not trying to bolster your personal worldview. We are trying to hold power to account. Jorge Ramos: Let’s see how many of those interviews are really challenging President Trump. Jorge Ramos: Yes. Brian Stelter: Yeah, some are The Examiner, the Washington Katy Tur: Absolutely, aggressively where it needs to be, but Times, others are CBS, so there is a mix. also be fair and not just do it for one side more than the other side. Jorge Ramos: But it’s going to be really interesting to see how many of them are really challenging President Trump. Brian Stelter: I think what I wrestle with up here — listening to the answers and feeling like I don’t have an answer to the Jake Tapper: Yeah, I think we know. following comment — is yes, yes, yes. And is that enough?

www.learcenter.org 19 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

Brian Stelter: There’s a Fox interview tonight. response?

Jake Tapper: Okay. Jorge Ramos: Yeah, sure. I mean, they can say we’re Democrats or that we’re supporting a party. Then we have to Jake Tapper: So the only other point I’d like to make is the show them that we did exactly the same thing with Democrats. President says a lot of things that aren’t true. He has an entire But can I go back to Cronkite? We think we’re in an incredibly support network of people in the White House and also difficult position, that we’re under fire. It’s nothing new. He people in Conservative media that support that. And that’s said, Walter Cronkite, “Network television began to draw bad. And that’s bad for a thriving democracy. I have also Southern fire during the Civil Rights movement. It became seen a lot of evidence-free, unfounded stuff out there against another one of the so-called outside agitators, stirring up Donald Trump — a Congresswoman the other day making discontent and telling Southern secrets. Correspondents some allegation about why Jason Chaffetz was retiring that and their crew sometimes felt like soldiers behind enemy was entirely based in ludicrous conspiracy mongering. lines.” That’s how they felt during the Civil Rights movement — journalists. Brian Stelter: Dreaming, yeah. Jake Tapper: And you know something? There is a reason Jake Tapper: Maxine Waters was the Congresswoman. for the fourth estate to be alarmed in this era. But during the And fake news is thriving on the Right. It’s living on the Left Obama era, he used the Espionage Act to go after leakers too, and it needs to be called out there too. I see a lot of who brought in information to journalists more than every conspiracy mongering. I see a lot of speculation based on other single President before him combined. His White House fevered theories and not presentation of facts. A lot of it is went out of their way to demonize an entire network and say thriving because of Twitter, on the Right and the Left. People it’s not a legitimate news organization. Not saying that this are going to accuse me on Twitter, I can hear them right now, anchor or this show or this report is illegitimate, but that an saying that -- entire network was not a legitimate news source. So, again, I’m not saying it’s equivalent, but I wasn’t a fan of that either. Brian Stelter: False equivalence, Jake. And in terms of your question about is there a danger, I was Jake Tapper: False equivalence. I have no idea who’s doing called a Right-wing hack for eight years, and now people it more. I know one side has a President pushing it forward. with pink hats are celebrating me. So I don’t know that I’m So I’m not saying they’re equivalent, but it’s not healthy on supposed to really pay too much attention to it. either side. Marty Kaplan: Final thought, Katy? Marty Kaplan: A last question: is there a danger in criticism or being an adversary that it’s always framed as a partisan Jake Tapper: You didn’t like the pink hat reference?

www.learcenter.org 20 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS • Brian Stelter: What a night. And I’m sitting on the set — it Brian Stelter: It has a different name. might have been with you, Jake, and Jim Acosta is on the front lawn of the White House, reporting. And I think to Jake Tapper: I just call it pink. myself, I swear Trump is going to walk out of that brand new house he has and tell Jim to get off his lawn. Marty Kaplan: The image it called to mind was one that I tried to push away quickly. And to the President’s credit, that has not happened. Journalists are still in the West Wing. The press briefing room Jake Tapper: Keep your mind out of the gutter, Marty. is still in the West Wing. The briefings are happening almost every day on live television. They may not be as long as we’d Katy Tur: Final thought — I’m honored to be here, especially like. They interrupt Katy’s show all the time, but they are a all alongside you guys. You have been role models actually constant presence. There’s a lot that hasn’t changed in this for much longer than I think any of you know. Jake, especially relationship in the first 100 days of the Trump administration. during the Obama years, when you were challenging Josh Some of the fears that First Amendment scholars may have Earnest and whoever. So for me, this is a truly tremendous had on November 9th have not come to pass yet. It is possible moment, and I hope that we find a way to rebuild that trust. we’ll see uses of the Espionage Act, it is possible you will see And I hope that we find a way to support our local institutions curtailing of press freedoms and attempts to change the libel and back each other up and also cool down the rhetoric on laws, but we’re not there. both sides. I think you’re right about the Left. The Left is getting a little spun up too. So, good luck. It’s notable to think about the power of the press and the extent to which there are, although very adversarial Brian Stelter: Let’s recognize the power of the press. I relations, still relations going on between the White House think it’s come through in this conversation. What has not and the news media. Nine interviews this week. I’d like to happened in 100 days is notable. I don’t know if I should see them with a greater proportion of more skeptical news admit this in this room. outlets. But we are seeing access, we are seeing interviews, we’re seeing a lot of fact-checking going on. And we’re seeing Marty Kaplan: Especially in this room. an enormous number of readers and viewers tuning in and consuming this material. Brian Stelter: On January 21st, I was watching CNN’s primetime coverage. Of course, this was Sean Spicer’s rant Marty Kaplan: Jorge, are you that optimistic? with five inaccurate things in five minutes. Jorge Ramos: I’m optimistic with our job. I think we are Jake Tapper: Oh, wow. That was something. doing what we should be doing. Donald Trump will be gone in four years or in eight years. But I think we will be judged

www.learcenter.org 21 • THE NORMAN LEAR CENTER ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE. THE 2017 WALTER CRONKITE AWARDS •

by how we react to him right now. This is a historic moment Marty Kaplan: Well, I think Walter Cronkite would be happy for journalism, and I just want to make sure that when people to see his profession thriving in that way, if that’s the case. think about what we did today, that we were doing the Two final thoughts. One is there was aVanity Fair/60 Minutes right thing, even though it might be uncomfortable. This is poll that came out the other day asking people what is the a historic moment, and we’ve got to rise to the occasion, I most accurate or honest news source. And the one that think. came in at number one is TV news, and the one that came in last was the President. The other thought is that, Katy, you Marty Kaplan: Jake, is it dangerous, this moment? provided the perfect segue to what we’re about to do, which is to also honor the people in local news who, dealing with Jake Tapper: The founding fathers were unbelievable exactly those constrained budgets and limited resources, prescient. And the fact that we have a system of checks and do phenomenal journalism. And we’re thrilled to be able to balances that includes the First Amendment is something shine a spotlight on them too. that we have seen happen in action — whether it’s the judicial branch sparring with the President or legislative Please join me in thanking this amazing panel. oversight. We saw some of that this week with Congressman Chaffetz and Congressman Cummings coming out and talking about what the former National Security Advisor did. When it comes to the role that we all play, we all are still broadcasting, newspapers are still publishing. My concerns about the media are more commercial than they are about President Trump.

So I’m optimistic. I think that we all need to rise. I think that we all need to make sure that our facts are straight before we publish or broadcast. But I think we’re in a great place, because I’m hearing anecdotally that young people are inspired to become journalists. I’m hearing anecdotally the people expressing an appreciation for what we do in a way that I’ve never encountered before in 20 years of being a journalist. So I feel good about journalism, and I just think we all just need to stay in shape and cut down on our sugars and our liquor and make sure we can wake up in the morning and do our job.