20150120_STL-11-01_T_T109_OFF_PUB_EN 1/86 PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 1

1 Special Tribunal for

2 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Ayyash, Badreddine, Merhi,

3 Oneissi, and Sabra

4 STL-11-01

5 Presiding Judge David Re, Judge Janet Nosworthy,

6 Judge Micheline Braidy, Judge Walid Akoum, and

7 Judge Nicola Lettieri - [Trial Chamber]

8 Tuesday, 20 January 2015 - [Trial Hearing]

9 [Open Session]

10 --- Upon commencing at 10.06 a.m.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The Special Tribunal for Lebanon is sitting in an

12 open session in the case of the Prosecutor versus Ayyash, Badreddine,

13 Merhi, Oneissi, and Sabra, case number STL-11-01.

14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning. We're sitting today to

15 continue with the evidence of Dr. Khoury. Before we start, can I please

16 ask for appearances from the parties, starting with the Prosecutor. Good

17 morning, Mr. Cameron.

18 MR. CAMERON: Good morning, Your Honour. It's Graeme Cameron for

19 the Prosecution, assisted by Skye Winner.

20 MR. HAYNES: Good morning, Your Honour. Peter Haynes for the

21 participating victims, together with Tamara Kosic.

22 MR. AOUN: Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning. Good

23 morning, everyone. For today myself, Emile Aoun, and I represent the

24 interests of Mr. Salim Ayyash. Thank you.

25 MR. EDWARDS: Good morning, Your Honours. Iain Edwards

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1 representing the interests of Mustafa Badreddine, assisted by Uzay Aysev

2 and for the first time joining us Mr. Gyo Suzuki.

3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'd like to welcome you to the proceedings,

4 Mr. Suzuki, and we welcome you back too, Mr. Edwards.

5 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you.

6 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

7 Philippe Larochelle for the Oneissi Defence.

8 MR. ROBERTS: Good morning, Your Honours. Geoff Roberts on

9 behalf of Mr. Assad Sabra.

10 MR. AOUINI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour,

11 honourable Judges. I am Mohamed Aouini. I represent the interests of

12 Mr. Hassan Habib Merhi. I am assisted today by Mr. Jad Khalil and

13 Mr. Hedi Aouini. Thank you.

14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And good morning to you too, Mr. Aouini.

15 And I note there are two representatives of the Defence Office seated in

16 the court as well.

17 Mr. Cameron, where are we up to with Dr. Khoury's evidence? Can

18 you just give us a road map, if you can, as to how much further you have

19 to go with him.

20 MR. CAMERON: We've reached the end of January in terms of

21 chronology and I expect to ask Dr. Khoury a number of questions about the

22 remaining days in February leading up to the assassination of the

23 Prime Minister, including what he was doing that day. And I expect that

24 I will have comfortably completed my questions of Dr. Khoury prior to the

25 lunch break, if not before.

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1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you for that, Mr. Cameron.

2 Dr. Khoury, thank you for making yourself available at such short

3 notice to continue with your evidence today after we didn't complete you

4 on Friday. As I think you anticipate, from what you've just heard from

5 Mr. Cameron, we'll be properly finished with you, with your evidence I

6 mean, today.

7 So please continue with your questioning, Mr. Cameron.

8 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.

9 WITNESS: GHATTAS EL-KHOURY [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examination by Mr. Cameron: [Continued]

12 Q. Good morning, Dr. Khoury. Dr. Khoury, when we finished on Friday

13 we had been dealing with the events of the 29th of January, when you had

14 taken that trip to the Prime Minister's new villa in Naameh with

15 Bassel Fuleihan. And at some point you had advised the Prime Minister,

16 as I understand your testimony, that the discussions that you had had

17 with various members of the Bristol Group had led you to the position

18 that the -- it would be a stumbling block, if I can put it that way, to

19 the formation of a united opposition if the Prime Minister had what

20 you've referred to as deposits or pro-Syrian candidates not of his choice

21 on his electoral list. Have I summarized that fairly?

22 A. Yes, that is correct, and that is why we discussed the content of

23 our talks and discussions with the opposition.

24 Q. And if I understand it, as we left off, in answer to your

25 concerns about the position of the senior members of the Bristol Group

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1 and the fact that they wanted confirmation and some degree of certainty

2 that there would be no pro-Syrian or deposit candidates on the

3 Prime Minister's list, he indicated to you that he would inform the

4 candidates that were presently on his list that they would no longer be

5 on his list. And you were surprised with the speed at which he made the

6 decision, but you also discovered or learned that he was a few steps

7 ahead of you and had already considered such -- that position favourably.

8 Is that a fair assessment of what you told us on Friday?

9 A. That is correct, and I think that he had taken this decision at a

10 personal level.

11 Q. What do you mean "at a personal level"?

12 A. I did not say "at the personal level." I said that Premier

13 Hariri had thought about this and had taken a decision prior to our

14 discussion. Maybe the translation was not accurate.

15 Q. He had already reached this decision in any event; is that what

16 you're saying?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did there come a point when the gist of that decision began

19 to leak out into the public realm?

20 A. This was published on the following day, I mean on the day

21 following his decision. The headlines of An-Nahar newspaper and other

22 newspapers had mentioned this. I don't know what was the source of their

23 information, but one of the headlines was that Premier Hariri had handed

24 over the deposit.

25 MR. CAMERON: If I could ask that a document be shown to the

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1 witness which appears at positions 17 in the version and 18 of the

2 English version.

3 This was a document which is similar to the last document that

4 was entered in evidence, P366. P366 and this document were not on the

5 Rule 91 list of the Prosecution but were recently provided to the

6 Prosecution by Dr. Khoury on the 6th of January, 2015, and they were

7 disclosed to my friends six days later on the 12th of January, 2015. And

8 the document is indeed a newspaper article from An-Nahar newspaper

9 provided to us by Dr. Khoury with the following heading: "How will the

10 new balances in the Parliament bring out the bill?" And second:

11 "Hariri's ambition is to close Beirut in the face of the Authority and

12 ."

13 So I would request that it be permitted to be shown to the

14 witness and that you consider receiving it in evidence after he's ...

15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do Defence counsel take the same position

16 they took in relation to the last exhibit, P366?

17 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, indeed.

18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you for your co-operation, except,

19 Mr. Edwards, in not waiting until the translation and the transcript has

20 finished. First intervention for the year. So yes, that will be

21 received into evidence as Exhibit P367 --

22 MR. CAMERON: Sorry --

23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The ERN of that was 60302905 --

24 MR. CAMERON: I'm sorry, this is entirely my fault. It should be

25 P368. 366 was the last of this kind of exhibit and then we had 367 which

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1 was something else again.

2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Oh, no, that was my error, Mr. Cameron. I

3 read numerically on an exhibit list I have in front of me. It will be

4 P368 -- let me just go back to the ERN: 60302905 through to 60302906.

5 That's the English translation. And the date of the article is the

6 29th of January, 2005.

7 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.

8 Q. Do you see the article before you now, Dr. Khoury? You heard

9 me --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You heard me read out the two headlines, one relating to the

12 bill. Would that be the election law bill that was being discussed in

13 Parliament?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was this one of the articles that you were referring to when

16 you talked about the number of newspapers mentioning this particular

17 issue around this period of time, the issue of the Prime Minister's

18 reluctance to have pro-Syrian candidates on his list?

19 A. Yes, this is one of the articles; however, I wanted to use this

20 article because it clearly mentioned that Premier Hariri wanted to hand

21 over the deposit and to prevent any pro-Syrian candidates or any allies

22 of the regime in power to join any of his lists.

23 Q. I'm going to go to the text of the article in a moment, but when

24 the headline says: "Hariri's ambition is to close Beirut in the face of

25 the Authority and Damascus," I'm going to ask a couple of questions about

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1 what that headline means. One is: What does it mean to close Beirut?

2 Second: Who is referred to in the terms "Authority" and the similar

3 question for "Damascus"?

4 A. From what I heard from Premier Hariri is that during his

5 meetings, namely his meeting with General Rustom Ghazaleh, he was told

6 that it would have been possible to amend the division of Beirut

7 electoral districts if he accepted to add seven or eight candidates

8 represented or proposed by the Syrian-Lebanese security apparatus or by

9 General Rustom Ghazaleh. So if he accepts to add these names to his

10 electoral lists, they maybe would have accepted or facilitated the

11 amendment of the divisions of the various electoral districts.

12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can we just clarify.

13 Mr. -- Dr. Khoury, are you saying Mr. Hariri told you that

14 Mr. Ghazaleh had told him that in a meeting?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what I said,

16 Your Honour. During that meeting, Premier Hariri was told that if he

17 wanted to have easier electoral -- elections, especially in Beirut, he

18 should add six to seven candidates on his electoral lists on the upcoming

19 elections, contrary to the previous elections where he was asked only to

20 add three pro-Syrian candidates.

21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: When was the meeting?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a meeting held between

23 Premier Hariri and Rustom Ghazaleh in the presence of the journalist

24 Charles Ayoub. I had mentioned this meeting earlier. I do not remember

25 the exact date of that meeting, but I think that Mr. Cameron had

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1 mentioned this meeting earlier.

2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We were just trying to clarify which meeting

3 it was, Mr. Cameron. We've heard the evidence about the meeting. We're

4 just trying to work out whether it was in that meeting and can you remind

5 us whether there was specificity as to when the meeting was? I just --

6 you will just need to remind us of that, and just one moment.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And Judge Nosworthy would ask -- would like

9 you to clarify with the witness what was meant by the "Authority" with

10 the capital A. We're sure you will but she's just giving you a little

11 prompt.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MR. CAMERON: As to the date of the meeting, there is an entry in

14 the visitors log-book that I think you can take it as fixes the date,

15 where both General Ghazaleh and Charles Ayoub appear at the same time and

16 leave at the same time on January the 9th. And that was the last time

17 that General Ghazaleh attended Quraitem Palace, according to the visitors

18 log.

19 Q. Forgive me, Dr. Khoury, I'm going to return to the headline

20 again. And when the headline refers to the "Authority" in capital

21 letters, do you know what comprises the "Authority" that the headline

22 refers to?

23 A. [In English] The Authority was the -- [Interpretation] Authority

24 in this context means the president of the republic and his security

25 apparatus, the prime minister, and the cabinet that was in power.

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1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The right correction would

2 be "Regime" rather than "Authority."

3 MR. CAMERON:

4 Q. This is the regime or authority within Lebanon?

5 A. Your Honour, the regime in Lebanon back then was part of the

6 Syrian regime. The appointment of the heads of the various security

7 agencies was subject to the approval to the Syrian regime prior to the

8 approval by the Lebanese regime. There was -- there were intertwined

9 relations between the Lebanese regime and the Syrian regime. That's why

10 we in the opposition wanted to describe that system by the following

11 terms: The Syrian-Lebanese security apparatus. This is the term that we

12 were using during that time. It was a clear indication that the Lebanese

13 regime is part and parcel of the Syrian regime.

14 Q. And how is the -- the newspaper article headline refers to the

15 authority, which you've given an explanation about, and Damascus. And

16 there was a Syrian component, I think you said, to the authority. What

17 distinguishes the authority from Damascus, then, in this headline?

18 A. I think that the journalist who wrote this article wanted to seek

19 a certain level of diplomacy in the terms that he chose. He did not want

20 to say that the decisions were taken in Damascus and that the regime in

21 Lebanon was implementing the Syrian decisions. I think that preparing

22 for the elections, preparing the electoral lists, seeking a majority that

23 is pro-Syrian, I think all these were part of the obligations of the

24 Syrian-Lebanese security apparatus, but the ultimate decision was taken

25 in Damascus. And this is also what is stated by the journalist in this

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1 article.

2 Q. The article itself -- and I'm not going to refer to it in its

3 entirety but perhaps the first four paragraphs and I'll read them and ask

4 you a couple of questions if I may. The article begins:

5 "Waiting for the Parliament to pass the new electoral law in the

6 next two weeks, the final version of the bill will face confrontations

7 mainly based on the outcome of the second mixed constituency in Beirut,

8 after Prime Minister Rafik Hariri rejected it with the solidarity of

9 'Qornet-Chehwan Gathering' and the Progressive Socialist Party leader MP

10 . And it seems that this confrontation is not only between

11 Hariri and the Authority, but as well between him and Damascus, after a

12 series of mediated contacts between the two in recent weeks failed to

13 bring them to an understanding, having many divergent offers presented by

14 the two.

15 "This points out to an unknown matter in the 2005 election

16 administration, being the fate of the relationship between Damascus and

17 the former head of the government, who still linger to announce joining

18 the opposition forces. He is also reluctant to determine the Syrian

19 promised quota, similar to what his election lists were like in 1996 and

20 2000. In the last election, it included five MPs: Mohammed Qabbani,

21 Adnan Arakji, Bassem Yamout, Nasser Kandil, and Bchara Merhej. They were

22 shared among the Syrian authorities that wanted them to join the list in

23 the 2000 elections, from Syrian Vice-President Abdel-Halim Khaddam,

24 former Defence Minister General Moustafa Tlass, and former president of

25 the security apparatus and reconnaissance in the Syrian forces operating

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1 in Lebanon, Major-General Ghazi Kanaan.

2 "Approaching the 2005 elections, and in the midst of a deepening

3 misunderstanding between Damascus and Hariri, the latter acts as running

4 without adhering to a promised quota and to appoint anyone, based on few

5 points ..."

6 I'll stop there. Now, can you describe in general terms your

7 understanding of what those four paragraphs essentially mean.

8 A. What this means is that Prime Minister Hariri decided and -- to

9 contest the elections without co-ordination, either with the authorities

10 in Lebanon or with the authorities in Damascus, and that he wasn't going

11 to make compromises and he wasn't going to have candidates imposed on him

12 or required by the Syrian authorities to be included on his lists. And I

13 think this was in the context that we've mentioned already, that is, on

14 the last day, which was that President Hariri decided to join the

15 opposition and to contest parliamentary elections where he and the

16 opposition with Walid Jumblatt could obtain a good majority.

17 Q. And it was shortly after that that the third Bristol Group

18 meeting occurred, was it not?

19 A. Yes, the third Bristol meeting took place on the 2nd of February,

20 2005.

21 Q. And the day before that third Bristol Group meeting, were you

22 aware of a meeting between the Deputy Foreign Minister of

23 Walid Moallem and Prime Minister Hariri at Quraitem Palace?

24 A. Yes, deputy foreign minister at the time Walid Moallem came to

25 Lebanon and visited a number of political personalities, such as

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1 President -- former president of the republic Elias Hrawi and Hussein

2 El-Husseini and he visited the prime minister and the minister of foreign

3 affairs and the president of the republic as well as Mr. Hariri in

4 Quraitem. And I think that he -- this visit lasted quite a while and I

5 think, as I was told by Prime Minister Hariri, I think that he was

6 cautioned against going against Syria's will with regard to the elections

7 and with regard to his dealings with President Emile Lahoud.

8 I would like to draw your attention to the fact that this was the

9 first time that Syria was resorting to a foreign minister or a deputy

10 foreign minister in its Syrian-Lebanese relations after the

11 . And I think this step was undertaken in the context of

12 the international resolution, 1559, which had been passed and which was

13 an attempt by the to say from now on they are going to resort to

14 diplomatic channels to deal with their issues with Lebanon. This is how

15 to use a silk glove on an iron fist, it was their way of doing it.

16 Q. Did you yourself attend the meeting with the Prime Minister and

17 Deputy Foreign Minister Moallem?

18 A. The -- no, I didn't, because this was a meeting just between the

19 Prime Minister and deputy foreign minister.

20 Q. And did you have occasion to speak with the Prime Minister about

21 his understanding of what had occurred during the meeting?

22 A. Just after the meeting I saw the Prime Minister, what he told me

23 in addition to the fact that he had known the deputy foreign minister of

24 Syria since he was an ambassador in Washington, he told me that the

25 deputy foreign minister with his own diplomatic way spoke to him but he

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1 addressed -- he cautioned him against going against Syrian's will. And

2 he also told me while we were chatting that the deputy foreign minister

3 was complaining about the then-foreign minister of Syria Farouq

4 El-Charaa.

5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What was the complaint he made?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I understood, the return of

7 Ambassador Moallem to Syria and his appointment of deputy foreign

8 minister was considered threatening to the position of Minister Farouq

9 El-Charaa. It was a power struggle, nothing more/nothing less.

10 MR. CAMERON:

11 Q. Did the Prime Minister confide in you why he thought that

12 particular meeting, which you described as unusual, had occurred then?

13 A. I think that Deputy Foreign Minister Moallem was visiting a

14 number of influential politicians. He could not have ignored former

15 Prime Minister Hariri, especially that this visit -- and as I said, this

16 embellishment of their dealings with Lebanon came after the -- after

17 Resolution 1559. So in a way they were trying to send an international

18 message saying that they wanted to change the way they were dealing with

19 Lebanon. This was the reason, I think, for his visit to Lebanon. But at

20 the same time he wanted to address a message to Hariri that nothing had

21 changed and that he would not be able to step out of the Syrians' will

22 and he wouldn't be able to go against the re-election of Lahoud.

23 Q. And what you've just said, was this the understanding that you

24 gained from your discussions with the Prime Minister?

25 A. Yes, sir. That is what I heard in the conversation with Hariri,

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1 that there was an attempt to improve and to embellish the situation by

2 sending Moallem, who was an ambassador and not a security officer. As

3 you know, in the past during the Bristol Gatherings, Walid Jumblatt was

4 speaking very clearly that he wouldn't deal with a security officer when

5 he's dealing with Damascus, when he's negotiating with Damascus, and

6 Hariri said this was a new attempt by the Syrian regime to improve their

7 image. But the content was the same, it hadn't changed. It had been --

8 it hadn't changed with regard to the Syrian position, with regard to the

9 elections or the extension of the mandate of Lahoud or any other issue at

10 the time.

11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just before you go on, how well publicized

12 was the visit of Mr. Moallem in early February 2005?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the visit was

14 well-publicized. As I said, he didn't just visit Prime Minister Hariri

15 but other political personalities. And he tried to have a meeting with

16 the opposition at the residence of Issam Fares, who was at the time the

17 vice prime minister, and he did hold meetings with some opposition

18 members.

19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I just heard you say he tried to have a

20 meeting. Does that mean he wasn't successful?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I said, "There was a

22 meeting." After I said, "There was an attempt," I then corrected myself

23 and said there was a meeting that took place at the residence of -- or on

24 the yacht of Mr. Issam Fares. It was attended by Nasib Lahoud, MP;

25 Boutros Harb, MP, both were prominent opposition members.

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1 MR. CAMERON:

2 Q. In your answer about the visit between Deputy Foreign Minister

3 Moallem and Prime Minister Hariri, you used the words "image" and

4 "content" and that the content appeared to be roughly the same position

5 as before. Do I misunderstand you or is that an accurate reflection of

6 what you said?

7 A. That's exactly what I said, sir, and I am conveying the

8 atmosphere of that meeting. Prime Minister Hariri told me that they're

9 trying to use Ambassador Moallem to improve the form of our dealings, but

10 in fact the content hasn't changed, their position hasn't changed with

11 regard to the elections or the re-election of the president of the

12 republic or any other issues, especially that at the time there was also

13 the issue of the withdrawal of the Syrian army from Lebanon. And in a

14 statement by deputy foreign minister, he was a bit frivolous about the

15 issue, saying that this issue was to be decided by a military joint

16 Syrian-Lebanese committee which would itself decide what is best with

17 regard to the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Lebanon and the

18 politicians don't have any role to play in this.

19 Q. After the meeting, did you know whether the Prime Minister was

20 hopeful that things would change or not?

21 A. Not at all. He was not optimistic.

22 Q. And the day after this meeting there was the Bristol Group

23 meeting, the third of its kind, which I understand you attended; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes, that is correct, me and Minister Bassel Fuleihan as well.

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1 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you had described two shifts in

2 position between the second Bristol Group meeting and this third one. As

3 I understand it, the first shift in position from Prime Minister Hariri

4 was the change from -- regarding the Syrian presence in Lebanon from a

5 staged withdrawal first to the Beqaa valley and then beyond, as opposed

6 to a complete withdrawal. The second change was in respect of the

7 absence of any Syrian or deposits on the Prime Minister's electoral

8 lists. And as I understood your testimony, both of those shifts in

9 position were to cement the unification of the opposition in order to

10 become successful in the next elections in May. Do I understand that

11 correctly?

12 A. Yes, that is true. The third Bristol Gathering called for a

13 total withdrawal of Syrian forces from Lebanon, and this is the document

14 that we drafted and we committed to this draft by being there. And

15 before the Bristol there was -- before the third meeting, there was a

16 declaration, talking about on the 2nd of January [as interpreted] to --

17 not to accept the Syrian candidates on the list and we were present as

18 well representing the President Hariri movement, which was the -- during

19 the first meeting we said we will not attend in our personal capacity but

20 as representatives of the movement of President Hariri. All these issues

21 confirm that when the 2nd of February meeting took place at the Bristol

22 meant that we were at the heart of the opposition which was going to

23 contest the elections in unity with the others.

24 Q. So around this period or at least by February the 2nd, is it

25 clear that the Prime Minister has associated himself closely with the

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1 opposition movement at the Bristol Gathering?

2 A. Yes, I think that by the 2nd of February meeting this matter had

3 been decided.

4 Q. And that association between the Prime Minister and the members

5 of the Bristol Group operation was in the public realm, that was publicly

6 known by then?

7 A. Our presence at the third meeting of the Bristol - that is, me,

8 Minister Fuleihan, and Dr. Ahmad Fatfat - I think our very presence was

9 the event and the coverage was huge and it showed that there was a real

10 ally, a physical sort of ally of this opposition who was Prime Minister

11 Rafik Hariri.

12 Q. Now, you mentioned the third Bristol Group meeting in that

13 sentence, but Minister Fuleihan did not attend that one. Did you mean to

14 say the second Bristol event in the 13th of December on the issue of when

15 did people understand that the Prime Minister was associated with the

16 Bristol Group opposition?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And around the period of time of the third Bristol Group meeting,

19 is it also fair to say that it was in the public realm and understood

20 that the Prime Minister had shifted his position on the issue of Syrian

21 withdrawal?

22 A. Resolution 1559 had been passed. It called for the withdrawal of

23 Syrian forces from Lebanon. There was a campaign launched by the regime

24 and its allies against Resolution 1559. The -- Farouq El-Charaa, the

25 foreign minister of Syria, said that this was a silly resolution and

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1 other such epithets. Prime Minister Hariri didn't say anything but he

2 said that he is -- he doesn't go against international resolutions, which

3 meant that -- what we understood that he was not against it, that he was

4 for this international resolution. By the third Bristol meeting, it was

5 quite obvious that this international resolution called for the

6 withdrawal of Syrian forces, but so did the opposition who was calling

7 for the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Lebanon.

8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, can you just go back to your

9 question.

10 MR. CAMERON: I will. I'm just waiting for the transcript to

11 finish.

12 Q. As I understood your testimony earlier, aside from

13 Resolution 1559, which called for the full removal of Syrian troops, at

14 the second Bristol Group meeting on December the 13th, if we -- you

15 described that the Prime Minister's position, as advocated through you

16 and Minister Fuleihan, was a more moderate one on that issue, that it was

17 for a staged withdrawal as opposed to the members of the Qornet-Chehwan,

18 say, who advocated for an immediate withdrawal. And I think that you

19 testified that somewhere between that time, the second Bristol Group

20 meeting, and the third Bristol Group meeting, in order to achieve unity

21 among the opposition, the Prime Minister had shifted his position from a

22 staged withdrawal of Syrian troops to a full withdrawal of Syrian troops.

23 Have -- just on the narrow issue have I got that right; is that your

24 evidence?

25 A. That is correct, and I confirm once more that between the second

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1 Bristol meeting and during that meeting we were calling for staged

2 withdrawal. At the third meeting we insisted on total withdrawal,

3 complete withdrawal, of Syrian forces. This is correct.

4 Q. So my second general question is: Was the fact that the Prime

5 Minister had shifted his position through your presence, from staged

6 withdrawal to complete withdrawal, did that become known or in the public

7 realm around the time of the third Bristol Group meeting?

8 A. Yes, because the communique of the third Bristol meeting was very

9 clear on this and there was no opposition in the communique or in the

10 media from us to this -- to what happened in this communique or what was

11 stated in the communique.

12 Q. And in respect of the confirmation by the Prime Minister that

13 there would be no pro-Syrian candidates or deposits on his list, I

14 understand that he had reached that decision certainly by the time of the

15 third Bristol Group meeting?

16 A. I think that he had told Rustom Ghazaleh of his decision during

17 their meeting on the 9th of January, 2005, and he confirmed it when on

18 the 29th of that month he rejected those candidates. And I think three

19 days after the Bristol meeting everyone knew that there were not going to

20 be any Syrian deposits on Rafik Hariri's lists.

21 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Let's go back to the meeting with

22 Deputy Foreign Minister Moallem, did this happen before the third Bristol

23 meeting?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That meeting took place -- yes,

25 that meeting took place on the 1st of February, I think, on the 1st of

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1 February, yes, definitely before the Bristol meeting.

2 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Which means that the third Bristol

3 meeting was a clear message sent to Moallem. If Moallem had cautioned

4 against going against Syrian will, then the third Bristol meeting was a

5 clear message sent to Moallem on the day after he had met with Hariri; is

6 that correct?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the message was that

8 President Hariri had adopted his position and that the visit of Moallem

9 was not going to change anything to this decision.

10 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] With regard to the third Bristol

11 meeting, was -- why was the representation so timid, where the movement

12 was only represented by you and Ahmad Fatfat; do you have an explanation?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Braidy, this was not a timid

14 representation. We were very prominent, we were the hawks, and there was

15 no way that President Hariri was going to attend because he wanted to

16 keep a margin of manoeuvre, as I said before. He wanted to be with the

17 opposition deep down without having to declare it directly. And this was

18 his own way to deal with political matters. That's all I can say.

19 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] You mean that President Hariri

20 always kept the door open?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the matters that we are talking

22 about, the opposition at the time was such that we had decided a total

23 breakdown with the regime in Lebanon and in Syria, a sort of boycott of

24 the relationship. But the way he dealt with the opposition and with the

25 allies of the regime, I don't want to go into the details, but even with

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1 the opposition they -- there were -- a lot had happened which needed time

2 to be repaired between Hariri and symbols of the opposition. We needed

3 time to bridge -- to bridge things. We had an opportunity to bridge

4 things but there was the personal relationships which needed to be

5 repaired which President Hariri wanted to do in stages.

6 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Dr. Ghattas, in your deposition you

7 said -- in your statement you said that one of the means to weaken

8 President Hariri was to divide Beirut and to create this third district.

9 Was President Hariri afraid of this and did he think that the second

10 district could possibly lead to a defeat of President Hariri in the

11 elections?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that Premier Hariri was not

13 afraid of losing in the elections, namely, when it came to the second

14 district. The proof is that he clearly said to the media that he was

15 going to run for elections in the second district, which was the most

16 difficult. However, he hated to see the electoral process taking place

17 on sectarian grounds. Such a division aimed at sending a message that

18 the elections in Beirut were taking place based on sectarian grounds.

19 This is why he did not like it. He was not afraid at all.

20 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] I also asked whether there was a

21 plan or an idea to re-divide the second district according to different

22 grounds.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean from our side?

24 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] From the side -- by those who were

25 drafting the electoral bill.

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was a plan to re-divide

2 the second district in a different manner, by adding other parts and

3 eliminating some of them. The ultimate objective, as I said earlier,

4 Your Honour, is that they wanted to include the Armenian bloc and also

5 another Shiite bloc, both of them in that electoral district. They

6 wanted to create a difficult situation that would make it difficult for

7 Premier Hariri to win the elections in that district. He was not afraid;

8 however, he did not like the way the district was divided or set up.

9 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] For further clarification, wasn't

11 this electoral gerrymandering or division aiming at correcting the level

12 of representation of the Christian forces in Beirut, wasn't it one of the

13 requests that were expressed by Patriarch Sfeir?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first district was left

15 intact - and I mean by that the area of Achrafieh and the neighbouring

16 cities - it was left intact and it wasn't possible to reach a different

17 result for the Christian forces in these elections.

18 MR. CAMERON:

19 Q. So the third Bristol Group meeting on the 2nd of February occurs

20 12 days before the Prime Minister's assassination, and in the intervening

21 days did you continue to work with members of the Bristol Group

22 opposition in preparation for the anticipated May elections?

23 A. Yes, we used to hold daily meetings and we were engaged in daily

24 co-ordination efforts for the preparation of the upcoming elections, a

25 co-ordination with the members of the Bristol meeting and other

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1 opposition forces.

2 Q. And after the third Bristol Group meeting, did you, based upon

3 your own assessment of the political events in Lebanon, did you have an

4 expectation as to how the Prime Minister's bloc or group, together with

5 the opposition members of the Bristol Group, would fare in the May

6 elections?

7 A. Prime Minister Hariri told me repeatedly that our coalition with

8 the opposition and even if we were to endorse the electoral bill

9 submitted by the government, he was sure we were going to have -- gain 70

10 to 72 seats in the Parliament, meaning himself, his bloc, the opposition,

11 and the Qornet-Chehwan Gathering. He had told me this repeatedly, and

12 this is what happened in the elections after his assassination in 2005.

13 His estimations were correct, were true, but unfortunately they happened

14 after his assassination.

15 Q. What was -- as a politician active during that period of time,

16 what was your assessment of the likely outcome of the May elections, as

17 you were situated between the days following the third Bristol Group

18 meeting up until the 14th of February, what was your understanding or --

19 as to what would happen in May?

20 A. I did not have any doubt that we were going to have the majority

21 in the parliamentary elections; however, I had this hidden fear that I

22 could not justify. I was afraid that we would see more repression, more

23 unacceptable repression, or maybe that we would witness some security

24 problems that would prevent us from winning the elections.

25 Q. And in terms of advancing the goals of the now-united opposition,

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1 would the 70 to 72 seats that you spoke of permit a new government to

2 advance those goals or not?

3 A. The appointment of the prime minister in Lebanon requires a

4 majority of the Parliament, so the Parliament or the Members of

5 Parliament engage in consultations with the president of the republic and

6 they name the prime minister. So in order to have a vote of confidence,

7 we need 65 MPs. I think that winning 70 seats in the Parliament did not

8 mean that the other opposing party was outside the regime or the power;

9 however, it meant that the cabinet or the government would secure a

10 parliamentary majority that would enable us to reach a kind of a balance

11 in the face of the extended Syrian influence in Lebanon.

12 Q. Now, I'd like to advance from the early part of February up until

13 February the 12th. And did you have occasion to visit an area called

14 Tanmiya on February the 12th, or Verdun?

15 A. Yes, the NGO or Beirut Development Association also called

16 Tanmiya in Arabic, it is a non-profitable organization, NGO, which aims

17 at providing assistance and help to the Beirutis. It's a social NGO. It

18 comprised other smaller NGOs and they were providing assistance and aid

19 in the name of the Hariri movement.

20 On that day, I received a phone call from my colleagues who told

21 me that the headquarters of this NGO will be raided today because they

22 were distributing aids and assistance to the Beiruti families. So I went

23 to the headquarters of this NGO with other of my colleagues in order to

24 prevent the security forces from raiding the headquarters of the Tanmiya

25 association.

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1 MR. CAMERON: Now, at this point I'd ask that the photograph that

2 appears at position 19 of the presentation queue be prepared for the

3 witness. This is a photograph that is part of a package that is found at

4 presentation queue 8, but because of a redaction we've excised a single

5 photograph and placed it at presentation queue 19. This photograph was

6 previously admitted as Prosecution Exhibit 089 on the 29th of January,

7 2014. And if I may show it to the witness. And the DERN number is

8 D0004531.

9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And it has the caption: "Hariri at Tanmiya

10 12.02.2005."

11 MR. CAMERON:

12 Q. Do you see that photograph, Dr. Khoury?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And is that you on the hat that appears the second from the right

15 looking at the photograph?

16 A. Yes, to the left.

17 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, the second position from the left in. And in the

18 centre of the photograph in the brown jacket there is the Prime Minister

19 himself. And in general terms, who are the other people --

20 A. Yes --

21 Q. -- around, depicted in the picture?

22 A. From the left to the right, MP Serge Torsarkissian, then myself.

23 Then next to me, MP Nabil De Freij, Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, MP

24 Mohammed Qabbani, and MP Atef Majdalani.

25 Q. And in a nutshell, can you give us a precis of what was going on

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1 at the time that you appeared in this photograph?

2 A. Prime Minister Hariri decided to visit the headquarters of

3 Tanmiya or Beirut Development Association, because there were some

4 rumours, or rather, confirmed news from Hariri allies in the security

5 apparatus. He was told that the military police, the judiciary police,

6 was going to raid the headquarters of the Tanmiya association because

7 this association was distributing aids, namely olive oil supplies to the

8 Beirutis. Prime Minister Hariri used to buy stocks of olive oil from

9 Lebanese farmers and distribute them to the Beiruti families as part of

10 his religious duty of zakat or alms. Back then, the regime considered

11 that distributing olive oil to the Beiruti families was a kind of a bribe

12 or corruption prior to the elections; however, this had been happening on

13 a yearly basis for the previous seven years prior to this event. That is

14 why we decided to go to the Tanmiya headquarters with Prime Minister

15 Hariri, not to prevent the security forces but rather to stand in the

16 face of these forces. The presence of such a group of MPs and

17 politicians would give this NGO a kind of immunity and would not leave

18 this NGO alone in the face of the security apparatus that was very

19 repressive back then.

20 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Dr. Ghattas, back to this picture,

21 and we can see MP Mohammed Qabbani in the picture; however, in the

22 article that we read a few minutes earlier, the article dated the

23 29th of January, 2005, in that article the name of MP Mohammed Qabbani

24 was amongst the list of the five MPs that were considered to be part of

25 the Syrian deposit. How do you explain this?

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the article written by

2 the MP -- by the journalist is the responsibility of the journalist

3 himself. When Prime Minister Hariri said, "We are returning the

4 deposit," we knew who were the names on the deposit, and the name of

5 MP Qabbani was not part of the three pro-Syrian deposit candidates.

6 MP Qabbani is still up to this day part of the parliamentary bloc headed

7 by Mr. Saad Hariri.

8 [In English] In the translation, in the translation when the

9 Prime Minister Hariri said, "We were returning the deposit," we knew who

10 were the deposit, I said [Arabic spoken]. We did not know who were the

11 deposits; he knew.

12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you for the clarification. We could

13 probably put you to good use afterwards in correcting the transcript for

14 us.

15 Can I just clarify the answer you gave to Judge Akoum just then.

16 You're saying that the journalist who wrote that article got it wrong and

17 Mr. Qabbani wasn't what you have been describing as a Syrian deposit?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not say that he

19 got it wrong. I said this is his opinion. However, Prime Minister

20 Hariri knew exactly well who were his allies and who were not, who was

21 loyal to him and who was not loyal to him. That's why he wanted to

22 return the names that I have mentioned earlier.

23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And do you have an opinion you'd be prepared

24 to share with us today as to where Mr. Qabbani stood in -- not just in

25 the photo but in terms of being a Syrian deposit or not?

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that MP Qabbani was standing

2 loyal to Prime Minister Hariri at all stages of his political life. And

3 even after his assassination he was standing by our request, our calls,

4 namely, when we called for the establishment of this international

5 Tribunal. I do not have any doubt when it comes to the loyalty of

6 MP Qabbani.

7 MR. CAMERON:

8 Q. Without taking you back to the article, there are five names

9 mentioned and there are -- there is the name of Mohammed Qabbani, whom we

10 just referred to; Adnan Arakji; Bassem Yamout; Nasser Kandil; and Bchara

11 Merhej. Now, you've given your understanding of Mohammed Qabbani's

12 position. And did he, in fact, run in the May 2005 elections?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So he lay outside the agreement that there would be no deposits

15 in the Hariri camp if he were permitted to run in the May elections

16 without objection by the Bristol Group members; is that fair?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Just going one by one through them. Did you understand from the

19 Prime Minister that he considered Adnan Arakji as someone whom the

20 Bristol Group would object to?

21 A. Your Honour, can I correct something? The Bristol meeting did

22 not get into the details when it came to the names of the candidates. We

23 were opposed to the general atmosphere. Regarding the names, the

24 candidates, I can tell you that Prime Minister knew very well who was

25 loyal to him and to Lebanon and who was loyal to the Syrian authorities.

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1 That is why I wanted to clarify this point. We did not get at any stage

2 into names - and here I mean the Bristol meeting - we in the Bristol

3 meeting did not get into details regarding the names. We wanted

4 electoral lists that were headed by Prime Minister Hariri and that were

5 totally loyal to him with all their members.

6 Q. All right. Let me ask the question in a different way. Of the

7 two groups, those who would be with the Prime Minister and those who

8 would be -- he would prefer not to have with him, can we assume that

9 Mohammed Qabbani was one that he preferred to have on his side and in his

10 electoral list?

11 A. I think that Prime Minister Hariri took the decision when he did

12 not name him and this is -- and this meant that he wanted him to be on

13 his electoral list. And this is what happened also later after the

14 assassination of Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, as we can see the name of

15 MP Qabbani was still on the list headed by the son of Mr. Hariri,

16 Mr. Saad Hariri.

17 Q. All right. Now, I'll ask the same question in respect of

18 Adnan Arakji.

19 A. The Prime Minister said that he did not want him on his electoral

20 list, and for the 2005 elections he was not on the electoral lists of

21 Mr. Saad Hariri.

22 Q. And I know you think that I'm asking -- my questions are too

23 specific in this area, but why was it that you understood the

24 Prime Minister did not want Adnan Arakji on his electoral list?

25 A. In general terms, I think that the Prime Minister used to know

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1 whether there was an opposition between his position and that of the

2 Syrian regime. He wanted his allies on his electoral list to join his

3 position, and he knew that the so-called deposit candidates would not

4 stand by him should there be any confrontation later on with the Syrians.

5 Q. Did the Prime Minister -- using the terms that we've been used,

6 the deposits, did the Prime Minister consider that -- Adnan Arakji to be

7 a deposit candidate?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did the Prime Minister consider Bassem Yamout as a deposit

10 candidate in the terms that we've been referring to?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And did the Prime Minister consider Nasser Kandil as a deposit

13 candidate in the same terms?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And I'll come to the last name just because we've mentioned it,

16 Bchara Merhej, did the -- what was the Prime Minister's position in

17 respect of that gentleman?

18 A. I think that Bchara Merhej decided not to run for the elections;

19 however, the Prime Minister considered Bchara Merhej as a political

20 figure that was very close to the Syrians, and if Bchara Merhej intended

21 to run for the elections, I think that he wouldn't have been on the

22 electoral list of Mr. Rafik Hariri.

23 Q. Now, returning to the photograph that appears at presentation

24 queue 19, you've described an event that has occurred for the past seven

25 years preceding 2005 of the distribution of olive oil as part of the

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1 Prime Minister's obligation to distribute alms; is that right?

2 A. According to the Islamic beliefs, there is something called zakat

3 or alms. People who have the means distribute part of their wealth to

4 people in need, and I think that the Prime Minister was a true believer

5 and he was distributing alms.

6 Q. And had there ever been an issue in respect to that distribution

7 in the past?

8 A. There was no problem at all; however, let us clearly describe the

9 acts of Prime Minister Hariri. Prime Minister Hariri funded the

10 education of up to 35.000 to 40.000 Lebanese students in Lebanese

11 universities and abroad. His generosity was not limited to this event.

12 Beneficiaries were from the various Lebanese confessions, regions, they

13 were not limited to one religion or one region. Regarding the Beirut

14 Development Association, Tanmiya, of course it is a Beiruti association

15 and it was limited to Beiruti families, but this does not mean that he

16 was not providing aid and assistance to other regions of Lebanon. But

17 there was no problem prior to that when it comes to this NGO in

18 particular, that is, Tanmiya.

19 Q. And how did the problem this year, in 2005, on February the 12th,

20 manifest itself, what happened?

21 A. Your Honour, you are now discussing the few days prior to the

22 assassination. In that period of time there was a lot of tensions in the

23 socio-political atmosphere in Lebanon and the government was staging an

24 open battle against Premier Hariri. And as the Judge has mentioned

25 earlier, the terms used by the representatives of the government back

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1 then, such as the epithet "the snake of Quraitem" and other terms, and

2 the term that Prime Minister Hariri had a suspicious project, all this

3 created an unprecedented atmosphere of tension and the regime in power

4 felt that despite all this Prime Minister Hariri was still going to win

5 the upcoming elections. So there was a kind of a wave of hysterical

6 actions by the regime and they raided this association that was providing

7 supplies that came in the form of olive oil to the Beiruti families.

8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Dr. Khoury, we're going to take a short

9 break now so -- yes, Dr. Khoury, you want to say something?

10 THE WITNESS: In the translation, the Prime Minister Hariri had

11 "a suspicious project." I think the word would be a "conspiracy

12 project," a conspiracy against Lebanon, a conspiracy project.

13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Again, very useful and thank you very much

14 for the clarification. We're taking a short break. The court is

15 adjourned.

16 --- Recess taken at 11.32 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

18 MR. CAMERON:

19 Q. Dr. Khoury, before the break we were dealing with the events of

20 the 12th of February, 2005, and you were looking at the photograph in

21 which you appeared together with the Prime Minister and others in Verdun.

22 Right? And I'd asked you in a nutshell what had happened that day in

23 respect of this incident, and you had indicated that the Prime Minister

24 as one of his obligations, his religious obligation to distribute alms

25 had for the past seven years distributed olive oil to various Beiruti

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1 families. And I think what I wanted to ask you next was: As a result of

2 that, what actually happened to bring you to -- with the Prime Minister

3 to this particular area of town?

4 A. We wanted to run for elections so we had to face the repressive

5 campaign launched by the authorities, in particular the government and

6 its services, with the support of the Syrian authorities. And in order

7 to put an end or as we were trying to put an end to this -- these

8 practices, we took this initiative. And it was important to make sure

9 that fear was not going to spread and affect the people who were going to

10 elect us. So we had to put paid to these attempts. And of course these

11 campaigns were in fact giving us more support and condemnation from the

12 people.

13 Q. I know that you know what happened but you haven't told the

14 Tribunal yet and us. What happened in respect of the distribution of

15 olive oil that caused so much consternation?

16 A. While the oil was being distributed, four people were arrested.

17 They're social activists belonging to various social services and they

18 all are allies of the political movement of Rafik Hariri. The

19 authorities raided their stores and detained four people. They were

20 jailed, accused of distributing electoral bribes. And then rumours

21 spread that I mentioned, that the authorities wanted to raid the

22 headquarters of the Beirut Social Development centre, and there was an

23 escalation by the authorities which was targeting the social branch of

24 the political movement of Rafik Hariri. Therefore, we had to show

25 solidarity with the Beirut Social Development Association in order to

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1 face the -- and challenge the security aggression by the security

2 services.

3 Q. Okay. I have a couple of questions arising from that and the

4 first is: When you refer to "the authorities," to whom are you referring

5 specifically?

6 A. At the time the judiciary, the judiciary police, and the

7 Internal Security Forces were resorted to. The public prosecutor decided

8 to arrest these people and issue a detention order and these people were

9 detained on Friday, and everybody knows that our judicial holiday is on

10 Friday and Saturday, so they can't be released unless the public

11 prosecutor decides to release them which led us to go to the palace of --

12 to the justice palace on Saturday evening. On Saturday evening, the

13 12th of February, in order to obtain their release. And we met the

14 deputy public prosecutor who got in touch with Rabea Kaddoura, the public

15 prosecutor who at the time refused to release them.

16 Q. Why did you associate the arrest of these four people with an act

17 that was part of a political campaign against the Prime Minister?

18 A. The oil was being distributed in the name of President

19 Rafik Hariri. This association was receiving funds from him and

20 assistance so that it could carry out its social work. So the detention

21 of these people, they're not just social activists but they're also

22 political activists and they belong to Rafik Hariri's movement. And one

23 of them was a member of the Order of Engineers, he was the engineer

24 Bashir Itani. So there was a direct targeting of Rafik Hariri and his

25 political movement in so doing. And if we hadn't put paid to this

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1 attempt, anybody who wanted to work with us during the elections whether

2 social aid was being -- if they were distributing social aid and they

3 were being arrested, what about them being political activists or taking

4 part in electoral activities. This spread fear amongst the -- or rather,

5 spreading fear amongst people was part of this campaign which was

6 launched by the security services so that we would be defeated in the

7 elections.

8 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Dr. Ghattas, you said that Friday

9 and Saturday -- oh, you said Saturday, Saturday. Do we have judicial

10 holiday on a Saturday in Lebanon?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were told that these people

12 could not be released on a Saturday or a Sunday, on a weekend, that is,

13 because there is no public prosecutor; therefore, we have to get in touch

14 with the deputy public prosecutor. At the time the deputy public

15 prosecutor said he is not the one who ordered their detention. This is

16 why we got in touch with the person I mentioned earlier.

17 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] I want to say that there is no

18 judicial holiday on a Saturday. It is possible to get in touch with the

19 public prosecutor at any time, even during the night.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you for this clarification.

21 I thank you, but I am telling you what happened to us. Perhaps they used

22 this as an excuse. This was probably part of the harassment that we were

23 being subjected to.

24 MR. CAMERON:

25 Q. In your conversations with the Prime Minister, did he consider

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1 the arrest of these four individuals to be motivated by political malice

2 against him?

3 A. There's no doubt about that and he considered this was a threat

4 against his electoral campaign. This is why he went personally to the

5 association headquarters. At the same time there was a condemnation

6 campaign against what the authorities were doing. The mufti of the

7 republic at the time got in touch with the minister of justice, who was

8 pro-regime and one of its symbols, and asked him to release these people.

9 And he also tried to get in touch with the prime minister of the time and

10 I think after several attempts he succeeded, and he considered that

11 distributing alms is one of the tenets of Islam and it wasn't possible to

12 stop such practice, whatever the pretext. And the mufti of the republic

13 was with other people of civil society standing by us in this

14 confrontation with the authorities.

15 Q. And at what stage were the people who had been arrested released?

16 A. I think following a number of contacts made by the Prime Minister

17 and personalities, especially the mufti, as I said, with the minister of

18 justice and the then-prime minister, the late Omar Karami, it had become

19 impossible to keep these people in jail accused of having distributed

20 food aid. So they were released on the night of Saturday, the 12th of

21 February, rather late. And those people and other Mustaqbal members came

22 to Quraitem, therefore, to the residence of President Rafik Hariri during

23 the night.

24 Q. I'd like now to turn to the events of the day before the

25 Prime Minister's assassination, the events of the 13th of February, 2005,

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1 which was a Sunday. Did you visit the Prime Minister that day?

2 A. Yes, I visited the Prime Minister in the morning. I don't

3 remember exactly at what time, but there was an amendment suggested by

4 President Hariri regarding the second district in order to exclude an

5 area and include another area, and therefore accept the electoral law

6 with an amendment regarding the second district only. And he wanted us

7 to put this amendment on the table during the parliamentary session on

8 the following Monday and to obtain this approval of this amendment. Of

9 course we co-ordinated our action with the opposition and with the

10 members of the Qornet-Chehwan Gathering. We also co-ordinated with the

11 Walid Jumblatt bloc, and we were preparing to go there in order to put

12 this amendment forward. And I think that the president at the time gave

13 me a printed document of this amendment so that we know how to put this

14 on the table. I did see him that morning; this happened in the morning.

15 Q. Just for clarification, when you said "the president," I take it

16 you meant Prime Minister Hariri gave you a document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you expect the Prime Minister to attend Parliament on the

19 following day?

20 A. It was customary that -- for him to do so. He wanted to attend

21 this session, but I wasn't the only one to know this, the media knew

22 that, anybody who was in touch with Hariri knew that he was -- wanted to

23 go to the parliamentary session and that he wanted to suggest this

24 amendment.

25 Q. And you indicated that the proposed amendment to the second

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1 district had been the subject of discussion with members of the

2 Bristol Group, the opposition; do I understand that correctly?

3 A. That is true. At the third Bristol meeting, in the final

4 communique, the Bristol Gathering asked for the amendment of the

5 constituencies in Beirut. So they had a public stance supporting the

6 request of Rafik Hariri.

7 Q. And had the Prime Minister and the members of the Bristol Group

8 aligned themselves in the past, on any past day, in the presentation of

9 an argument or a submission on an issue before Parliament?

10 A. I think there were common positions between us, such as being

11 opposed to the tapping done by the security services, not just us but

12 other members of another group, parliamentary group, at the Bristol and

13 other forces in order to adopt a law to limit the tapping that was done

14 by the services freely which had nothing to dissuade it. It was -- they

15 were tapping people's contacts and their contacts with other public

16 political personalities. And this was considered to be totally

17 unacceptable, even by the Speaker of the House. And also this issue of

18 public freedom such as the closing of the MTV station channel. We had a

19 common position on it and also the by-elections which took place in the

20 Metn region. We had converging positions more than real co-ordination

21 between our position.

22 With regard to a specific law, the co-ordination started with the

23 electoral law.

24 Q. And was this the first time that that co-ordination amongst the

25 opposition parties, which you've described as the Bristol Gathering

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1 particularly after the third meeting, is this the first time that that

2 co-ordination had been present in Parliament in respect of any issue?

3 A. I remember -- if I remember well, this might be the first time we

4 saw such an effective and efficient co-ordination when it came to

5 adopting a new draft law.

6 Q. And did you stay for the entirety of the day at the Prime

7 Minister's residence on Sunday, the 13th of February?

8 A. No, I went to have lunch with my family and I came back in the

9 evening. And if you want me to give you more details about my second

10 visit in the evening, I'm ready to do so.

11 Q. Yes, please. When you came back -- first, why did you come back?

12 A. On that particular day, MP Bassel Fuleihan came back from abroad,

13 from a trip abroad. He called me and he told me that he was going to

14 pass by my house and to go or to gather to the residence of the

15 Prime Minister in Quraitem. When he arrived to my place, he was nervous,

16 upset, and he told me he wanted to share a piece of information with the

17 Prime Minister and it was about a security matter. Of course he told me

18 what it was about and we drove together to meet Premier Hariri. We went

19 together to his office, and Bassel told him that there are serious

20 threats to kill him that were mentioned in one particular article

21 published by Al-Hayat newspaper and that such threats --

22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It's just slightly ambiguous in English.

23 You said: "Bassel told him there are serious threats to kill him." Do

24 you mean to kill Mr. Hariri or to kill Mr. Fuleihan?

25 THE WITNESS: I said there are serious threats of killing, not

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1 specifically to the Prime Minister, at that -- at this point.

2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Who were you referring to, in the sense of

3 there being serious threats of killing?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I say is that Bassel told him

5 that there are serious threats of killing targeting political figures in

6 Lebanon, namely, either Prime Minister Rafik Hariri or MP Walid Jumblatt.

7 And that such threats were mentioned in an article written by journalist

8 Randa Takieddine, Al-Hayat reporter in Paris -- or correspondent in

9 Paris. She is known to have good contacts with the presidential palace

10 in France and also political figures close to President Chirac. In this

11 article journalist Takieddine also mentions that the international Envoy

12 Terje Roed-Larsen visited President Chirac for a meeting that lasted

13 longer than expected in an attempt to convince the international

14 community to give Terje Roed-Larsen more time to implement Resolution

15 1559. However, this article ends with the following note or

16 conclusion -- this article ends with the following conclusion: There is

17 an international warning addressed to Syria not to be implicated or

18 involved (in any bloodshedding in Lebanon). And that such a warning

19 means that Syria should not be involved in any assassination targeting

20 Rafik Hariri or Walid Jumblatt because this will be a point of no return

21 when it comes to the bilateral relations between Europe and Syria.

22 MR. CAMERON:

23 Q. Now, as I understand the sum of this evidence, you return to

24 Quraitem Palace in the evening in the company of Bassel Fuleihan.

25 Bassel Fuleihan had a message to convey to the Prime Minister of a

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1 generalized concern about the killing of unnamed senior politicians in

2 Lebanon. Just stopping there; is that right so far?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Leaving aside the article that you referred to a moment

5 ago, I'm going to ask you a more specific question about what the

6 Prime Minister said. Now, did Mr. Fuleihan tell the Prime Minister of

7 this generalized threat which was causing him concern, that is,

8 Mr. Fuleihan concern? Did he tell that to the Prime Minister?

9 A. Yes. The Prime Minister asked him, "What is the source of such

10 information, that there is a possibility of further bloodshed in

11 Lebanon?" Bassel replied that he tried to seek additional information

12 when it came to the source of such reports, but he was told that it might

13 be the British intelligence based on tapping results in various centres

14 in Cyprus, where they were listening to phone calls made in Syria.

15 However, Bassel was not able to give more details or to clarify the

16 sources of such information. And for the first time it appeared to me

17 that the Prime Minister was taking such threats very seriously.

18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, just on that article, is it --

19 I can't recall, is that in evidence?

20 MR. CAMERON: No, it's not in evidence and I -- no. It's not in

21 evidence and I didn't consider that -- I can provide the Court with the

22 article if you wish, but I did not consider that it had any independent

23 evidentiary value beyond what Dr. Khoury described. But of course I will

24 provide it to you if you ask of me.

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We'll get back to you on that.

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1 MR. CAMERON:

2 Q. What I'm interested in, Dr. Khoury, is the following:

3 Minister Fuleihan came and advised the Prime Minister of his concerns

4 based upon some information that he had received in part from a newspaper

5 article. What I'm interested in is when he said that to the

6 Prime Minister, I take it in your presence, what was the Prime Minister's

7 reaction and what did the Prime Minister say to you and to

8 Minister Fuleihan?

9 A. The Prime Minister used always to say that any attempt on his

10 life is a -- is something that they will never dare to do and that they

11 will have to pay a very high price on any attempt on his life. He used

12 to consider it a red line. I'm repeating what he used to say whenever we

13 used to mention such threats.

14 In this particular instance he did not give us the usual answer.

15 He gave us the impression or he explained to us that he intends to make a

16 few contacts or phone calls. Knowing him well, he seemed to me upset,

17 disturbed, and as if he took it very seriously.

18 Q. Did the Prime Minister on this occasion refer to the sort of

19 concept: They would never do it, there's a red line? Or was that in

20 previous instances where notions of threat had been brought to his

21 attention?

22 A. Such threats were conveyed to him on a daily basis from various

23 sources, and we used to discuss with him such possibilities, I mean

24 threats against him or targeting him or MP Walid Jumblatt. And his

25 answer was always the same. However, in that particular instance he did

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1 not give us this same answer he used to give in the past. That's why I

2 felt that the situation was very serious, and when he said that he was

3 going to make some phone calls and contacts, I understood that this time

4 he took the threats very, very seriously, much more than in the previous

5 instances.

6 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Dr. Khoury, you said that

7 Prime Minister Hariri wanted to make some phone calls. Does it mean, for

8 instance, phone calls with President Chirac to have some more information

9 or something else?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This might be true, but I did not

11 ask him and he did not give more details on that day.

12 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Were these concerns also caused by

13 the attempt on MP and Minister Marwan Hamade or much more than that?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The attempt on Mr. Hamade's life

15 was the first step. They were resorting to violence in order to change

16 the political balance in Lebanon. It was a clear message to Rafik Hariri

17 and Walid Jumblatt in Lebanon. I think that the Prime Minister made

18 contacts at the national, regional, and international levels. He knew

19 that such security events would be recurrent.

20 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] You said that the Syrian

21 authorities received warnings against any involvement in such

22 assassinations. Was this part of the article or was it part of what

23 Prime Minister Hariri told you that he received such information from

24 some European countries?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said is what was written in

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1 the article; however, Prime Minister Hariri on many previous instances

2 and occasions told us that European countries and friendly Arab countries

3 had told Damascus and after the assassination attempt on Marwan Hamade

4 not to return to the cycle of violence.

5 JUDGE LETTIERI: Did you ever hear by chance news about threats

6 from extremist Salafist groups?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely not, never.

8 MR. CAMERON:

9 Q. Earlier in your answer you said that they were resorting to

10 violence in order to change the political balance in Lebanon. When you

11 said "they," who did you mean? Who were you referring to?

12 A. When there was an assassination attempt on the life of

13 Marwan Hamade, we held the Lebanese-Syrian security apparatus liable for

14 this assassination attempt. It wasn't because we had evidence or proof

15 about the modus operandi of this crime or how was it perpetrated. On the

16 contrary, based on the political and security grip by the Lebanese-Syrian

17 security apparatus in Lebanon, it wouldn't have been possible to

18 perpetrate such an attempt without any knowledge from the security

19 agencies. This is according to our own opinion.

20 Q. When you said "they," do I understand that you're referring to

21 the Lebanese-Syrian security apparatus that you described before?

22 A. Yes.

23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: [Interpretation] And what do you mean by

24 "without the knowledge of the security agencies"? Can you just explain

25 what you mean by "without the knowledge ..."?

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the security agencies

2 that were in power in Lebanon - and as I explained earlier to your

3 honourable Court about the atmosphere in Lebanon - they were wire-tapping

4 all the contacts made by the opposition members, they were repressing the

5 opposition, the students, members of the Lebanese Forces and the Free

6 Patriotic Movement. In the year 2002 when the patriarch visited the area

7 of the mountain El-Jabal, after that meeting they repressed hundreds of

8 young people and students and they ended in the jails and in detention in

9 the justice palace. They were paralyzing all the judiciary and other

10 agencies in Lebanon. We said it wasn't possible because we knew very

11 well that it wouldn't have been possible to do anything in Lebanon and to

12 perpetrate such a security operation under such an apparatus that was

13 having a very heavy hand on all the political and security agencies in

14 Lebanon.

15 I have a clarification. We had a series of Lebanese security

16 agencies and Syrian security agencies, and they were acting all together

17 within an atmosphere of co-ordination.

18 MR. CAMERON:

19 Q. Are you able to describe the agencies by name?

20 A. Yes, but I do not know the exact roles of such agencies. We have

21 the army intelligence, the Lebanese Army Intelligence, the Lebanese

22 Security General -- or General Security, the Internal Security Forces,

23 ISF, and also the state security. In addition to all these agencies we

24 had also the Syrian intelligence. And just to explain it to your Court

25 because I hadn't mentioned it earlier, the Syrian intelligence officers

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1 were present all over the Lebanese territory, they had offices and

2 branches in all Lebanese regions. The so-called security and

3 surveillance branch in Lebanon had its headquarters in Anjar and the

4 head -- regional offices in Beirut and Tripoli and all the other Lebanese

5 regions.

6 Q. At some point during that day, that is, the 13th of February, did

7 you have occasion to speak to a gentleman -- the head of the Prime

8 Minister's security office who is referred to as Abou-Tareq?

9 A. Yes. I met Abou-Tareq in Quraitem Palace when I was with Bassel,

10 if I remember well. He had just returned from a visit he paid to

11 General Rustom Ghazaleh. He was very nervous. He told me that the

12 situation is bad, which means that the relation between us and between

13 the security and surveillance branch in Lebanon is very bad. So I asked

14 him, "What happened?" He said that he went to pay a visit to

15 General Rustom Ghazaleh and that he heard a string of injuries against --

16 of insults against the Prime Minister and that he told him, "If you were

17 not my friend, you wouldn't have returned to your house today or I

18 wouldn't have allowed you to return to your home today."

19 Abou-Tareq, as he told me, he was extremely upset from what he

20 heard and he did not come back immediately to Prime Minister Hariri. I

21 think he went back to his daughter's house or maybe his house - I don't

22 remember exactly. He had a short nap, he rested for a short while, he

23 wanted to have some time to himself before coming again to the

24 Prime Minister and to convey to him what he had just heard.

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can you clarify, Dr. Khoury. Rustom -- I'm

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1 sorry, Abou-Tareq told you and Mr. Hariri that Rustom Ghazaleh had said

2 to him, being Abou-Tareq, "If you were not my friend, you wouldn't have

3 returned to your house today." Is that correct?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

5 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Dr. Khoury, would you please be

6 able to convey to the Court some particular incidents or occurrences that

7 highlight the existence of such problems between late Prime Minister

8 Rafik Hariri and the heads of the security agencies that you have just

9 enumerated? Has there been any such occurrences while he was

10 Prime Minister or after he left his office?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I mentioned the two

12 incidents I knew of, the meeting with Rustom Ghazaleh and this particular

13 incident and also when he went to Syria and met with President Assad. I

14 did not have any particular information regarding his relationship with

15 the various Syrian security agencies.

16 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] I'm asking you about the heads of

17 the Lebanese security agencies, were they implementing his orders when he

18 was prime minister, were they abiding by his instructions and orders or

19 not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Lebanese security agencies

21 mentioned above were implementing the direct orders of the president of

22 the republic and the Syrians. The Prime Minister has constantly been

23 complaining from the fact that these security agencies were not abiding

24 by his will or orders. They were outside the state. And I have just

25 mentioned one incident earlier when I said that in the Parliament we

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1 heard MPs complaining of the fact that they were wire-tapping the phone

2 calls; namely, when the Speaker said that there was an instance of a

3 wire-tapping between -- for a phone call made between the Prime Minister

4 and the Speaker. Everyone knows, Your Honour, and remembers that we had

5 voted for endorsing a draft bill calling for the privacy of phone calls.

6 Of course, such a bill or such a law was never implemented.

7 JUDGE LETTIERI: There were an independent agency among the

8 agencies that you mentioned, that means there was among them an agency

9 loyal to the state?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you want -- if you meant by

11 "loyal to the state," meaning loyal to the Prime Minister, I think that

12 none of these agencies was implementing the orders of the Prime Minister.

13 However, the president of the republic, these agencies and the Syrian

14 presence constituted what we have described as the Syrian-Lebanese

15 security apparatus.

16 MR. CAMERON:

17 Q. Going back to the conversation that you had with Abou-Tareq, who

18 perished in the assassination on the following day, you said that he had

19 described a string of insults delivered by Rustom Ghazaleh against the

20 Prime Minister. Now, earlier when you were describing the kinds of words

21 used by Rustom Ghazaleh, you were decorous about telling the Court what

22 words he used. Did Abou-Tareq tell you the nature of the insults that

23 had been delivered by Rustom Ghazaleh?

24 A. He did not describe to me in details what he said, but he said

25 that the -- that one of the terms that was used was "treachery."

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1 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: The least insulting of the terms

2 used was "treachery."

3 MR. CAMERON:

4 Q. Was that your hierarchy, that the least-insulting was "treachery"

5 or --

6 A. [In English] Yes.

7 Q. Were you aware of the other insults, some of the others?

8 A. [Interpretation] This is what Abou-Tareq said; however, I did not

9 explore the details of what was said with him. He was upset, disturbed,

10 afraid, concerned, and he said to me that the least insulting of the

11 terms used was "treachery."

12 Q. And in your conversation with Abou-Tareq, what did you understand

13 that to mean?

14 A. I think that Abou-Tareq, given that he came from the security

15 background, he was in charge of the security detail of Hariri, he knew

16 that such a threat might take -- might deteriorate further and escalate.

17 That's why he was afraid that there might be an attempt on the

18 Prime Minister's life.

19 Q. And did Abou-Tareq tell you why he had been to visit

20 Rustom Ghazaleh that day?

21 A. From what I understood is that he was asked to go and visit

22 Rustom Ghazaleh. I think that it was Rustom Ghazaleh who asked him to

23 come and visit him.

24 Q. Did you get that understanding from either the Prime Minister or

25 Abou-Tareq?

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1 A. From Abou-Tareq.

2 Q. Were you familiar with Abou-Tareq's general demeanour as a result

3 of your association with the Prime Minister and his security detail?

4 A. Abou-Tareq was present everywhere where we were meeting with the

5 Prime Minister; however, I had no information about the security

6 arrangements or any details of such arrangements.

7 Q. What I'm interested in is: Did you have an understanding of what

8 kind of man he was? Was he generally calm? Was he generally excitable?

9 Did you have an understanding of the sort of person he was in the normal

10 course?

11 A. On the contrary, he was a very calm person in general. He

12 accepted everyone around him and he also tried to look after us in terms

13 of security matters, such as me, Bassel Fuleihan. And he had asked my

14 security detail -- he asked my body-guards after the attempt on

15 Marwan Hamade's life to be more careful and to train more often, and he

16 gave them guidance directly. I think he was interested in all those who

17 were around the Prime Minister and he was interested in the

18 Prime Minister's security and he was very good at it. And on the whole,

19 he was very calm and exercised a lot of self-control.

20 Q. And had you ever in the past seen him in the state that he was

21 that day?

22 A. Not at all.

23 Q. And how did the day end for you, the 13th of February?

24 A. At the end of our meeting with the Prime Minister, I went to the

25 drawing room with Bassel Fuleihan. We found some other people there,

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1 amongst whom were the press officer of President Hariri, Hani Hammoud.

2 We also found MP Atef Majdalani there and we walked out with him. We

3 left the Quraitem residence together. And as we were on our way out,

4 Atef Majdalani told me that there was a real security threat and there

5 was an impending danger of a security operation and he asked us to be

6 very careful. So he was asked what sort of -- how careful should we be?

7 He said, "Try to use different cars, try to camouflage your car." And

8 Bassel said that he was going to go with the Prime Minister in a security

9 convoy because they had armoured cars and they had good security measures

10 that surrounded the Prime Minister. Unfortunately, these measures which

11 had been taken did not yield the expected results which -- and this led

12 to the assassination of the Prime Minister and 32 others and you know the

13 rest.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, 22 others.

15 THE WITNESS: There's a correction, "22" I said, not "32."

16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes, the interpreter self-corrected. Thank

17 you.

18 MR. CAMERON: Now I'm about to go to the events of the 14th, and

19 before doing that we're now in a position, if you so wish, to display the

20 article referred to but we only unfortunately have an Arabic version. We

21 will have to rely upon the assistance of Dr. Khoury. And second, since

22 I'm going to a new area and in light of the time, I didn't know whether

23 this was a convenient time for you to consider the lunch break.

24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, have Defence counsel received a

25 copy of the article?

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1 MR. CAMERON: Yes, they have, Your Honour. It was attached to a

2 recent statement that was provided by Dr. Khoury and disclosed to counsel

3 for the Defence. In fairness, when I disclosed that statement I told

4 them that it was unlikely that I would rely upon any of the articles that

5 had been attached to it, so they may not have taken the same approach as

6 a result of my representation to them as they ordinarily might.

7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do Defence counsel have a position at the

8 moment or do you need to ruminate over this during the lunch break?

9 MR. EDWARDS: I'm the only one standing. I'm speaking on behalf

10 of the Badreddine team. I'm content for the article to be used now. I'm

11 prepared to deal with this in cross-examination.

12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. There appears to be no other

13 opposition and thank you for that, Mr. Edwards. So, yes, you can use it

14 now and we will receive it into evidence. And of course you'll get an

15 English translation for us in due course. But I do note the time, so if

16 we could possibly come to that when we resume after our lunch break.

17 But just before we do -- thank you, Dr. Khoury, it's time for

18 your lunch. So we'll see you back after the lunch break.

19 There's just one very small reclassification order I just need to

20 give which is the following ruling.

21 As a result of the Trial Chamber's decision of the 13th of

22 December, 2014, its decision on the Prosecution's motion for admission

23 into evidence of 485 documents, photographs, and witness statements

24 relevant to Rafik Hariri's movements and political events, we ordered

25 Defence counsel for Mr. Merhi to file a redacted version of their

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1 motion -- sorry, their response to the Prosecution's motion.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: They have informed our Legal Officer that

4 the -- their filing simply needs reclassification as public, so the

5 Chamber makes the order to the Court Management Services Section to

6 reclassify filing 1746, which has the name: [Interpretation]

7 Consolidated response of Merhi Defence, 21st, 24th of October, 2014,

8 modification of the list of exhibits and witnesses and limiting

9 evidentiary material going to the movements of Mr. Hariri.

10 [In English] That completes that oral ruling. The decision of

11 the Chamber was on the 30th, that's between 29 and 31 rather than 13,

12 we'll take a break now and the court is adjourned.

13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.13 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.

15 [The witness takes the stand]

16 MR. CAMERON:

17 Q. We now have the article that Dr. Khoury was referring to earlier.

18 It's found at positions 31 and 32 of the Prosecution's current evidence

19 queue. And the English translation at position 32 was very kindly

20 provided to us by counsel for Mr. Badreddine, who had had it prepared in

21 advance. So we're grateful to Mr. Edwards for supplying it to us and to

22 the Court. The article --

23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Edwards, for that.

24 And can I also just raise the translation of the previous

25 exhibit, the article, I think it was Exhibit P368. There was a -- it's a

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1 draft translation and there was a difference between the word "authority"

2 and "regime." We'd ask that you submit that for a final -- not a

3 revised, but a final translation.

4 MR. CAMERON: Yes, of course. Thank you.

5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You're seeking an exhibit number for this

6 article from Al-Hayat on the 13th of February, 2005?

7 MR. CAMERON: I guess documents requested by the Court would fall

8 into one of the parties' -- how would you like to deal with that, if at

9 all?

10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Some of these philosophical questions become

11 a little bit complicated. We'll treat it as a Prosecution exhibit, P369.

12 MR. CAMERON: Okay.

13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I just need a -- the ERN we have there is

14 60303039 to 040 and the heading of the article is: "New warning against

15 attacks targeting any of the symbols of the Lebanese opposition, Larsen

16 asks for Syria to be given more time in order to implement Resolution

17 1559."

18 MR. CAMERON: And for the sake of completeness, this was supplied

19 to the Prosecution on the same basis as Exhibits P366 and P368; that is,

20 in a statement arising from an interview on the 6th of January, 2015, of

21 Dr. Khoury.

22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Are you going to take Dr. Khoury to this or

23 are you just tendering it?

24 MR. CAMERON: Well, since Dr. --

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You're raising your hand, Dr. Khoury.

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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.

2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I think you want to say something.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

4 correct something. I don't know if it was my own mistake or not. My --

5 Mr. Cameron asked me whether Mr. Fuleihan attended the second Bristol

6 meeting and did not attend the third Bristol meeting. I would like to

7 clarify. He asked me whether he attended or not. I would like to

8 correct. The third Bristol meeting that was held on the 2nd of February,

9 2005, was attended by Mr. Bassel Fuleihan, Dr. Ahmad Fatfat, and myself.

10 Bassel Fuleihan did not attend the second Bristol meeting, he was not in

11 Lebanon, and that meeting was held on the 22nd of -- 23rd of January,

12 2004 -- sorry, 2005.

13 THE INTERPRETER: We kindly ask the witness to repeat the last

14 sentence.

15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can you just have a look at the transcript,

16 Dr. Khoury. The interpreters missed what you said in your last sentence.

17 Can you just please look and see what the transcript says, and if that's

18 not right can you please repeat it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The third Bristol meeting was held

20 on the 2nd of February, 2005. It was attended by Mr. Bassel Fuleihan,

21 Dr. Ahmad Fatfat, and myself. The second Bristol meeting was held on the

22 13th of December, 2004, and was not attended by Mr. Bassel Fuleihan

23 because he was abroad. The first Bristol meeting was held on the 22nd of

24 September, 2004. Is it clear, Your Honour?

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: For me it's more than clear.

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1 Please continue, Mr. Cameron.

2 MR. CAMERON: Unfortunately, it is more opaque for me because

3 we --

4 Q. Dr. Khoury, we went through the video, which is Prosecution

5 Exhibit 365, under the assumption that that was the second Bristol Group

6 meeting. Do you remember the parade of various participants who came

7 through the halls? And we saw in that video Minister Fuleihan and you,

8 and then sitting around the table together we saw Minister Fuleihan and

9 you in jocular conversation with some of the other members. Do we take

10 it that your recollection is now that that particular video was in

11 respect of the third Bristol Group meeting, not the second Bristol Group

12 meeting? Would it be of any benefit for you to see the video again or

13 any excerpts from it to refresh your memory?

14 A. Do you have any date or time-stamp on that video?

15 Q. Well, Dr. Khoury, you have a specific recollection of

16 Mr. Fuleihan being present at the third Bristol Group meeting but not the

17 second Bristol Group meeting? Because on your present recollection it

18 appears that Mr. Fuleihan appeared only once in those three Bristol Group

19 meetings, that is, the third one in February of 2005. Is that your

20 present recollection?

21 A. The third Bristol Group meeting was attended by Mr. Bassel

22 Fuleihan. During that meeting we had confirmed, undoubtedly confirmed,

23 that we are part of the opposition or joined the opposition. If I

24 remember well, he did not attend the second Bristol Group meeting;

25 however, if you have pictures, if they are dated, then in this case maybe

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1 it's my memory that's not so accurate and I cannot remember exactly what

2 happened.

3 Q. It may ultimately not be of much concern in respect of the video,

4 but what I would like to get straight is this: If it's your present

5 recollection that Mr. Fuleihan attended only one of the three Bristol

6 Group meetings and upon viewing the video that we identified as or

7 entered as P365 and we see you and Dr. -- Mr. Fuleihan together, then

8 that would appear to confirm that the video is actually of the third

9 Bristol Group meeting as opposed to the second Bristol Group meeting.

10 Would I be right about that?

11 A. I think that you are totally right. There is also a statement by

12 Mr. Bassel Fuleihan that was published by Al Mustaqbal newspaper

13 published on the 3rd of February and it relates what happened during that

14 third Bristol meeting. So I am sure and confident that Mr. Bassel

15 Fuleihan attended the third Bristol Group meeting and that Mr. Fuleihan

16 and myself made it very clear that we were attending that meeting on

17 behalf of Mr. Hariri.

18 Q. All right. So the video that we looked at, P365, the portion

19 that we looked at, should -- we should reconsider as having occurred or

20 represent the participants at the third Bristol Group meeting not the

21 second. My follow-up question is this: You attended both Bristol Group

22 meetings, the second and the third. Were the list of participants --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were the participants essentially the same at both meetings for

25 the most part, with the exception of Mr. Fuleihan?

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1 A. Some new members or personalities attended the third Bristol

2 meeting and they were more representative of the Lebanese society. And

3 some people close to Mr. Hariri attended the third Bristol Group meeting

4 and hadn't attended the previous meetings. For instance, Mr. Farid

5 Makari, Deputy Speaker, who attended the third Bristol Group meeting and

6 not the second one. So I think that the third Bristol Group meeting

7 comprised the biggest number of representatives from the opposition and

8 there was a clear representation of the political movement headed by

9 Mr. Rafik Hariri.

10 Q. Can you think of any --

11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: These were reported in the press, weren't

12 they, the Bristol Group meetings?

13 MR. CAMERON: Yes.

14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: So it should be relatively easy to verify

15 which one Dr. Khoury is referring to in relation to the presence of

16 Mr. Fuleihan. As Dr. Khoury says, he was deliberately sent there to

17 represent Mr. Hariri's interests.

18 MR. CAMERON:

19 Q. Can you think of any other people of note that attended the third

20 Bristol Group meeting that did not attend the second Bristol Group

21 meeting?

22 A. As I said earlier, the Deputy Speaker, Mr. Farid Makari, who was

23 close to Premier Hariri. I would like to bring also to Your Honours'

24 attention that I went through some media coverage and it appears to me

25 that during the second Bristol Group meeting we were not sitting around a

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1 round table. The seating arrangements were different between the second

2 Bristol Group meeting and the third Bristol Group meeting. So now I

3 can -- or I think right now that what we were talking about was the third

4 Bristol Group meeting.

5 I would like also to bring to Mr. Cameron's attention the fact

6 that I gave him these documents during our last meeting and he has now a

7 copy of all these documents.

8 Q. Dr. Khoury, all I want to establish is this: It may not matter

9 all that much as between whether the video was for the second or the

10 third Bristol Group meeting, except with the qualifications that you have

11 so far offered. What I'm interested in is: A, were there significant

12 participants, individual participants, beyond those that you've already

13 mentioned that did not attend the second Bristol Group meeting that did

14 attend the third? And my second question is: Were there groups that

15 were represent --

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Were there groups that were represented at the third Bristol

18 Group meeting that were not represented at the second Bristol Group

19 meeting?

20 A. Political groups, no. I think that most of the political groups

21 were represented and that the novelty regarding the third Bristol Group

22 meeting is that the Hariri movement was represented as a movement and not

23 merely through individuals.

24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, could we possibly resolve this

25 simply by at some point you can or your lawyers or your team can check

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1 for the surrounding publicity of the two meetings and see if there's any

2 metadata on the video, as Dr. Khoury suggests. And if necessary, if

3 there's something else that Dr. Khoury can add at a later stage, we might

4 have to return to you by videolink from Beirut if we need to obtain a

5 brief correctional update or maybe we could do it in the statement. So

6 if we could maybe move on from this one because as Mr. Cameron says, it

7 ultimately may not be of great importance.

8 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. We'll certainly do that. My intention,

9 though, was to retrieve some value from the testimony that he had already

10 given and I think I've gone as far as I can in that light.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Dr. Khoury, for that clarification.

12 MR. CAMERON: Now, if the witness can be shown the document

13 that's now been entered as P369 and if we could go to the second page of

14 that document, ERN 60303040.

15 Q. I think the thing that you referred to in your testimony was the

16 final paragraph of this reasonably lengthy article which reads as

17 follows, at least in the English version:

18 "Sources said that the international community sent a clear

19 message to Syria 'not to shed the blood' of any of the opposition figures

20 in Lebanon. The message asserted that should Walid Jumblatt or

21 Rafik Hariri be victims of any assassination attempt, 'this will mark the

22 final severance in the relationship between Syria and the international

23 community.'"

24 Was that the essential point that you wanted to draw to the

25 Tribunal's attention arising from this article?

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1 A. Yes, and I think that the importance of this matter lies in the

2 fact that one day prior to the assassination of Prime Minister Hariri

3 there was an atmosphere at the local and regional and international level

4 that the cycle of violence might return to Lebanon and warnings had been

5 sent to Syria in this regard.

6 Q. Had you yourself or did you yourself have an understanding of how

7 those warnings that were referred to in this article had been

8 transmitted? Did you see any of the letters or did you hear about any of

9 the oral communications that might have taken place?

10 A. I'm not aware of any oral communications. The written

11 translation from Arabic, in Arabic the term used was [Arabic spoken] and

12 it means "message" rather than "letter." A message can be sent orally,

13 it can be a written message, or it can be sent through diplomatic

14 channels.

15 Q. When it says "message," and, you know, I quite understand it can

16 be oral or written, were you yourself privy to the manner in which that

17 message had been delivered?

18 A. Absolutely not, no.

19 Q. Is -- just scanning through the article and before we leave it,

20 is there anything else within the article that you wanted to draw to the

21 Tribunal's attention now that we've made it an exhibit?

22 A. One thing related to the movements of Mr. Roed-Larsen who was in

23 charge of implementing this international resolution, he visited

24 Quraitem Palace on the 8th of February. If I remember well, he visited

25 Quraitem twice: Prior to his visit to President Assad and after visiting

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1 President Assad. And I think that the journalist who wrote this article

2 had a good knowledge of what's happening behind the scenes in the French

3 Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the French diplomacy.

4 Q. Was there anything else that you wanted to bring to the

5 Tribunal's attention in respect of this particular article?

6 A. Thank you, that is enough.

7 Q. Now, I'd like to leave the day of 13th of February and come to

8 the 14th of February. How did you start your day, sir?

9 A. As usual, I started my day by having a tour at the hospital and

10 visiting my patients at the hospital. And then following what I heard

11 from Bassel Fuleihan earlier, I decided to go to the Parliament in a car

12 that I do not normally use, a small car used by my wife. So I went with

13 my body-guard in that small car to the Parliament.

14 I went inside the Parliament a few minutes before 11.00, because

15 as you know the hearing was scheduled to start at 11.00. I chose a seat

16 close to my colleagues Bassel Fuleihan and Dr. Ahmad Fatfat. The

17 parliamentary session started with the so-called incoming documents or

18 papers. These are documents that are sent to the Parliament's

19 Presidency. They can address any kind of topic, not necessarily linked

20 to the electoral law. There were many such documents submitted to the

21 Parliament's Presidency. Premier Hariri came inside the Parliament hall,

22 had some discussions or talks with the MPs. He sat close to MP Bassem

23 Sabaa. And when he found out there were too many of these incoming

24 papers or documents, he left the Parliament and went out. Dr. Bassel

25 Fuleihan asked me, "Why don't we also leave the Parliament? Because it

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1 seems that they do not intend to discuss the electoral bill today." So

2 we left all together, Dr. Bassel Fuleihan, Dr. Atef Majdalani, and

3 myself.

4 At the door of the Parliament I called Mr. Abou-Tareq to ask him,

5 "Where is the Prime Minister? Where is he sitting?" So he told me,

6 "They are sitting at the Cafe de L'Etoile facing the Parliament

7 entrance." So we went to the Cafe de L'Etoile, we saw the Prime Minister

8 chatting with a group of journalists. They were addressing many issues.

9 We spent a few minutes with Abou-Tareq and then Bassel went to join the

10 Prime Minister, and I had a private or one-on-one chat with the

11 Prime Minister.

12 Q. Just before we get to that one-on-one chat, so as not to

13 interrupt the flow of your testimony, had you expected to enter into a

14 debate or some kind of resolution of the election law issue on the

15 14th of February when you arrived?

16 A. Prime Minister Hariri was expecting a debate that would deal with

17 the subdivision of the electoral constituencies, and this is why he

18 wanted to attend before the session and to attend the session. But the

19 way things were being dealt with did not allow for a debate to take place

20 with regard to the electoral bill.

21 Q. In the normal course, when would Parliament -- is Parliament like

22 our court, for instance? Does it have a lunch break where you sit for

23 specified hours? How would it work in the normal course? If you started

24 at 11.00, when would you next anticipate in the normal course rising for

25 some sort of break?

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1 A. Normally there is no pause, there is no interruption. MPs can go

2 out and come back to the session. The Speaker adjourns the session if

3 there's no quorum. If there's no quorum, then the session is adjourned.

4 But if an MP tells the Speaker -- that's if an MP tells the Speaker that

5 there is no longer a quorum, but if there is a quorum, the Speaker can

6 carry on with the debate until about 3.00 in the afternoon. And of

7 course the issue of the motions at our table, there could be very simple

8 issues and there could be a large number of motions that are tabled. And

9 therefore, to start the debate of a law that is being put on the table

10 could not necessarily happen exactly then.

11 Q. In the normal course, if they start at 11.00 and you carry on to

12 3.00, not this day but in the normal course, is there a particular time

13 in between those hours where there would be a lunch break or would people

14 just come and go as they saw fit and when there was a lack of quorum they

15 would have to stop?

16 A. If there is a debate, if there is a serious debate that is

17 continuous, then the Speaker can adjourn at around 3.00 p.m. and resume

18 that debate at 6.00 p.m., but there is no interruption for lunch

19 necessarily. If MPs want to have a bite or if they want to have a

20 coffee, they can leave the session and come back.

21 Q. I seem to remember that -- you indicating that the Prime Minister

22 had wanted to present a particular proposal about the election law on the

23 14th. Do I understand you correctly?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Did you understand that he wanted to present that proposal

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1 himself or through one of his colleagues?

2 A. I don't remember whether he entrusted any of the MPs member of

3 the bloc to suggest this amendment or he was going to do it personally,

4 but he was insisting on attending the session which would debate the

5 electoral law, and in particular the administrative subdivisions of

6 Beirut. He was very insistent that he should attend that session. The

7 reason he left the session was that he saw what was being put on the

8 table and he saw that the debate was going on, and he knew that during

9 that morning session the electoral law would not be debated. Or at least

10 this is what he thought and this is what he made us think.

11 Q. And who sets the agenda for what's -- for what order things are

12 dealt with in Parliament?

13 A. The Speaker of the House.

14 Q. So at some point it looked like it wasn't going to happen that

15 day, and he left and you followed him over to the Cafe de L'Etoile. You

16 went inside and you had a short conversation with the Prime Minister?

17 A. Yes, indeed. When I went into the Cafe de L'Etoile, one of

18 the -- one of my patients was there -- or I had a patient who had a

19 sudden -- suffered a sudden emergency. She wasn't at the Cafe de

20 L'Etoile, but she was being operated on, it was a laparoscopy, and during

21 the operation there was a perforation of her stomach because of the

22 procedure itself. So she needed emergency treatment and that patient was

23 insistent that I should operate on her personally. And so I told the

24 Prime Minister that because of the issue of the distribution of olive

25 oil, the opposition wants to hold a meeting in solidarity with the

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1 Prime Minister movement to declare that they are totally rejecting these

2 practices and that meeting had better be held at the headquarters of the

3 association. The President Hariri told me, "I agree for a meeting to be

4 held but not necessarily at the headquarters of the association." I

5 said, "It's time." He said, "Let me think, let me think about it."

6 So I left that issue and I talked to Bassel and I said, "Up to

7 you now to convince the president that this meeting in solidarity with

8 regard to the distribution of oil should be held at a place that is

9 ours." And I said that, "I have to go to attend to my patient at the

10 hospital because of the emergency situation with regard to that patient."

11 And the Prime Minister joked with me and I left immediately to go to the

12 hospital.

13 JUDGE AKOUM: Mr. Cameron, just on this point.

14 [Interpretation] The question was about the agenda, who sets the

15 agenda. You said the Speaker of the House. But in fact you mean it is

16 the bureau of the House of Parliament? It's just a clarification I

17 wanted to add.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is the bureau that agrees

19 the agenda.

20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And what's the process for putting things on

21 the agenda for a parliamentary session?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The government tables motions with

23 regard to laws and there was this issue of the electoral law. The bills

24 come from the government and there was a bill, a draft bill, with regard

25 to the electoral law. And suggestions for this can be put forward by a

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1 Member of Parliament or more than one, but these proposals have to go

2 through the joint committees and then they end up before the House of

3 Parliament and the Speaker can refer a draft bill to the joint

4 committees. But the main thing during that meeting was the proposal made

5 by the government with regard to the electoral law. As for the other

6 motions, there are motions that can be tabled on the day.

7 THE INTERPRETER: By the various MPs.

8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What I'm specifically interested in is the

9 process for putting something on an agenda for an individual

10 parliamentary session, that is, on any one day, for example, is there an

11 agenda published in advance which is given to MPs and the public so they

12 know what's on the agenda because it's set out -- the order in which

13 things will be presented and a likely estimate of time or anything like

14 that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour, there is an

16 agenda which is distributed to the MPs regarding the proposals that are

17 made and the bills of law that will be discussed. But the Speaker of the

18 House can change the order of the items; it is one of his prerogatives

19 that he can do this if he sees fit.

20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: When is the agenda published in relation to

21 the holding of the parliamentary session?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is sent usually, or rather, the

23 draft of laws with the agenda are sent to the mail of the MPs 48 hours

24 before the beginning of the session, to the postal box of the MPs.

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And does that include what you called a few

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1 moments ago the small papers, the small papers list, are those things

2 included on the list which is sent to the MPs 48 hours in advance?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are not declared in advance.

4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: So in that respect does the Speaker have the

5 ultimate discretion in how long a session goes in relation to dealing

6 with the small papers which come before the Parliament; that is, it could

7 go for five minutes or it could go for five hours depending on the number

8 of small papers and how the Speaker deals with them, whether the Speaker

9 chooses to deal with them on that day or on another. Is that the

10 situation?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Usually these -- with regard to the

12 incoming papers, the Speaker will decide that it will need so much time

13 and this is stipulated in the rules of the House, whether the MP is going

14 to talk about them verbally or present a document. This is all

15 stipulated in the internal regulations of the House of Parliament, in the

16 rules of procedure of the House of Parliament.

17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: So how do Member of Parliament know how long

18 the small papers list is going to take? How do they get to organize

19 their business for the day or their own time for the day? Or is it

20 something that is presented to them when they arrive there?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During every legislative session it

22 is expected that there will be incoming papers and the main job of MPs

23 are to legislate, so no one can forecast how the session is going to go

24 precisely. Some sessions are very long and others are very short.

25 Nobody can say this beforehand, nobody can say beforehand how things are

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1 going to go because this depends on how the debate is going to go.

2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Is it in the Speaker's control as to when

3 agenda items are reached?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Speaker of the House can

5 control the situation to a certain extent, but the rules of procedure

6 stipulate that MPs have rights and one of them is the right to speak and

7 the Speaker has to respect their wish.

8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: On the 14th of February, 2005, you were an

9 MP and you said at the time when you went to the Cafe de L'Etoile the

10 Parliament hadn't yet reached the main business of the day which was the

11 amendment -- the proposed amendment to the electoral laws. Why was that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because, as I said, Your Honour,

13 there were incoming papers and MPs who wanted to talk about these

14 incoming papers were taking their time. So it became quite obvious that

15 because of the number of incoming papers there wouldn't be any

16 possibility to start discussing this draft law. And this happened not

17 only at that session but in other sessions this would happen as well. On

18 the 14th of February on the session -- during the session of the 14th of

19 February there was nothing that was not normal. It was quite well-known

20 that incoming papers are tabled during any and every session. So that

21 day the debate went on for quite a long time because there was a heated

22 debate about these incoming papers.

23 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] I just wanted to clarify that MPs

24 receive the agenda 48 hours in advance -- 24 hours, not 48 hours?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The documents would normally be

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1 distributed 48 hours, but maybe the rules of procedure stipulate

2 24 hours. I can't be sure of that.

3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You mean at least 24 hours in advance?

4 JUDGE AKOUM: Yes.

5 MR. CAMERON:

6 Q. Your conversation with the Prime Minister in the Cafe de L'Etoile

7 was the last one you had with him. And how did his spirit seem when you

8 parted?

9 A. Yes, this was the last time we were talking to each other. It

10 happened minutes before the explosion and there was nothing particular

11 about that conversation apart from what I said. I didn't have an

12 impression at all that this was the last time we are talking to each

13 other or seeing each other.

14 Q. Did he seem in a reasonably jocular mood or was he unhappy or can

15 you tell us a little bit about your understanding of how his last moments

16 were?

17 A. Quite the opposite. He was joking, he was in a humorous mood and

18 he was joking about my decision to go to the hospital. He didn't look at

19 all that he was upset by anything.

20 Q. You went to the hospital and you began your practice there with

21 the patient that had requested you. And how far away was it from the

22 Cafe de L'Etoile to the hospital, roughly?

23 A. If there's no traffic - I practice at the American University

24 Hospital and my patient was in the emergency - it doesn't usually take

25 more than 10 minutes, maximum 15 minutes. When I reached the hospital I

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1 went immediately to the emergency department where my patient was, and I

2 was examining my patient when we heard this deafening explosion, where

3 the ceiling fell over our heads. And this was the first day that we were

4 using that emergency unit and it lost its ceiling that day. It was a

5 kind of false ceiling that fell over our heads, my head and the head of

6 the patient. I headed outside and looked in the direction of the

7 down-town area and I noticed a huge column of smoke that was rising up in

8 the sky.

9 Q. How far away is the American University Hospital from the

10 St. Georges Hotel?

11 A. It's about a kilometre as the bird flies.

12 Q. And when was the first time you realized something catastrophic

13 had happened?

14 A. When we heard the explosion, the first thing that came to

15 mind - and I said it to my fellow medical colleagues - that that

16 explosion had targeted Prime Minister Hariri.

17 Q. And did you see Bassel Fuleihan after the attack?

18 A. When I heard the explosion I was standing -- I stood at the door

19 of the emergency and I saw all the people who had been injured arriving.

20 Some of them introduced themselves to me and others I recognized in spite

21 of the dust covering them and the black smoke they were covered in. And

22 one of them was one of the close protection officers of the Prime

23 Minister and he was part of the convoy of the Presidency of the cabinet,

24 and I knew that what we were fearing had happened. And then we started

25 receiving the bodies and the injured. And in fact we were trying to find

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1 out and we were discussing ...

2 I apologize. And finally we recognized the body of Rafik Hariri.

3 And then my colleague Atef Majdalani, he told me that Bassel was also

4 amongst the injured. I had seen him but in fact I hadn't recognized him.

5 So I went back to him and he was given an oxygen mask, and I asked him if

6 he was all right and if I should tell his old mother what had happened.

7 And he said yes. So I called his mother and I sent my wife to bring her

8 over from her house. And then I told his wife that he had been injured

9 but he was still alive.

10 Q. And ultimately, as we know, Mr. Fuleihan passed away.

11 I have two other questions for you. Did you carry on in politics

12 after that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did you run in the elections of 2005 in May?

15 A. No, I didn't, and I withdrew as a result of a request by

16 President Saad Hariri and because of the situation of the alliance at the

17 time and the fact that the alliance should include all the components

18 which had been present at the Bristol meeting.

19 Q. The last question I have relates to the telephone number that you

20 used during that period of time, and I understand that you do not have

21 any concerns with the fact that it becomes public because you've used it

22 for so long and there are an infinite number of ways for people to learn

23 of it. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. So I'm going to read out the number and ask if this was the

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1 number that you used on your mobile telephone during the period of time

2 of 2004/2005, and the number is this: 3393993. Was that your number in

3 2004 and 2005?

4 A. Yes, 03393993.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Dr. Khoury.

6 A. [In English] Thank you.

7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Dr. Khoury, just a clarification about

8 Mr. Hariri leaving the Parliament. The evidence we've heard is that he

9 had a luncheon to go to at Quraitem Palace, but this was on the same day

10 when this important parliamentary session in relation to the proposed

11 electoral amendment was to be held. Do you know what Mr. Hariri's

12 intention was in relation to the rest of the day and the luncheon and the

13 parliamentary business which hadn't been reached yet? What was he

14 intending to do, do you know?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any precise

16 information about what he intended to do, but of course if there had been

17 a debate around the electoral law in the afternoon of course the

18 Prime Minister would have gone back to the Parliament in the afternoon.

19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you for that.

20 Mr. Haynes, we understood Mr. Mattar might have had some

21 questions when he was here last week. Has the Prosecutor covered all the

22 areas that he was interested in asking of Dr. Khoury?

23 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, he has indeed.

24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I've just received a note, Mr. Aoun, that

25 you have two questions and would like to go first. It says "two

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1 questions." A dangerous thing if you say "two questions."

2 Dr. Khoury, the Defence counsels are going to ask you questions

3 starting with Mr. Aoun from the Beirut bar who will question you in

4 Arabic. Please remember to just pause between the question and the

5 answer.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Aoun:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Khoury, I am a lawyer or counsel Emile Aoun.

8 I represent the interests of Mr. Salim Ayyash. I would like to put two

9 or three questions to you. Last week and during the examination-in-chief

10 you said that you met Mr. Rustom Ghazaleh more than once. I would like

11 to seek a clarification regarding the second meeting when you said that

12 when he was appointed to replace Mr. Ghazi Kanaan you met him. Could you

13 please give us more details about that meeting? What were the reasons

14 justifying such a meeting?

15 A. It was a meeting to congratulate -- or a courtesy meeting because

16 all the political figures in Lebanon wanted to -- who wanted to

17 facilitate the daily lives of their -- of the people might have needed to

18 meet such security officials.

19 Q. So it was a courtesy call, because Rustom Ghazaleh replaced

20 Ghazi Kanaan, to congratulate him?

21 A. It wasn't a visit to congratulate him; it was rather a courtesy

22 call.

23 Q. Last week from what we understood from your answers I have a kind

24 of a hypothetical question pertaining to the presidential elections and

25 the extension of President Lahoud's term. My question is the following:

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1 If the Syrians accepted to nominate another candidate, other than

2 President Lahoud, in this case would Prime Minister Hariri accepted the

3 new candidate nominated by the Syrians?

4 A. I answered this question and I said that the Syrians could have

5 elected another pro-Syrian president even if Rafik Hariri did not agree

6 on that because they had a majority of a minimum of 72 seats in the

7 Parliament and I said that this could have been a better choice because

8 we used to think that this Lebanese-Syrian security apparatus -- or we

9 used to think that if we had a more moderate Lebanese president, maybe he

10 would have been able to release the grip of the Lebanese-Syrian security

11 apparatus.

12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can I just clarify, Dr. Khoury, if you look

13 at the transcript you said, "I said that the Syrians could have elected

14 another pro-Syrian president ..."

15 Can I just clarify what you mean by "the Syrians could have

16 elected"?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Parliament back

18 then included a parliamentary majority that was pro-Syrian, that

19 supported the Lebanese-Syrian security apparatus, and they had the

20 majority. This is what I said. I also said that it would have been

21 possible to elect a new president of the republic, a president who is

22 supportive of this political line.

23 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Dr. Khoury, do you think that for

24 more precise interpretation: [In English] The Syrians could have

25 nominated -- [no interpretation].

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How was it interpreted?

2 JUDGE AKOUM: Sorry, I will say it in English. Would you have

3 preferred in the translation to use the term that the Syrians could have

4 nominated another pro-Syrian president, rather than saying the Syrians

5 could have elected, because the Syrians do not elect in Lebanon. This is

6 my proposal.

7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That was likewise my point.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree. I agree.

9 MR. AOUN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Dr. Khoury, same question. My question is about the position of

11 Premier Hariri. I would like to have an answer with yes or no. Do you

12 think that Premier Hariri would have accepted another candidate nominated

13 by the Syrians, other than President Lahoud?

14 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 THE INTERPRETER: We kindly ask the witness to repeat his answer.

16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You're going to have to repeat what you

17 said, sorry.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I cannot

19 give an answer to a hypothetical question with an answer of yes or no. I

20 cannot give a reply also on behalf of late Premier Hariri. So I cannot

21 answer this question.

22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Well, put it another way: Did Mr. Hariri

23 ever discuss with you or did it ever come to your knowledge that

24 Mr. Hariri had a particular view on whether he would accept another

25 candidate who was not Mr. Lahoud, who we've heard evidence that

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1 Mr. Lahoud and Mr. Hariri were not close, to put it diplomatically, even

2 a candidate who the Syrians have nominated? Would -- have you ever heard

3 or did he say anything that he would have accepted another

4 Syrian-sponsored candidate in those circumstances?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we discussed the Lebanization

6 of the presidential elections, I said very clearly that that would put an

7 end to one of the symbols of the Syrian-Lebanese security apparatus, that

8 is, President Lahoud. So it was very clear that if another president

9 would have been elected, this would have meant that one of the symbols of

10 the regime that was in place would have been sort of weakened or

11 eliminated.

12 MR. AOUN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Last question. You mentioned the meeting between Prime Minister

14 Hariri and Walid Moallem. You also said that according to Premier Hariri

15 he had received warnings or cautions. Could you please provide us with

16 more details about the form of such warnings and the content of these

17 warnings?

18 A. When I testified about this, I said everything I knew and

19 Mr. Cameron was trying to get more information, extract more information,

20 but I said everything I knew. It was a warning that the Prime Minister

21 should not disobey the will of the Syrians and I do not have any

22 additional information.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. AOUN: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You were next, Mr. Edwards.

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1 Cross-examination by Mr. Edwards:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Khoury. My name is Iain Edwards. I

3 represent the interests of Mustafa Badreddine. I want to ask you about

4 three matters only, and I don't think my questions will take too long.

5 The first relates to your evidence before the Trial Chamber last Friday

6 about Mr. Hariri's position on dissolving . And for the record

7 your evidence is found at page 38 of last Friday's transcript, 16th of

8 January, 2015, lines 13 to 25.

9 But I don't need to take you to the transcript. You told

10 us - and you may recall - that Mr. Hariri wanted the issue of Hezbollah's

11 disarmament to be dealt with within Lebanon itself, that there should be

12 no interference in this process by the international community --

13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Edwards, I just want to clarify, I think

14 I heard you say "position on disarming Hezbollah." The transcript says

15 "dissolving." There's an important distinction there. That's at

16 page 77, line 15.

17 MR. EDWARDS: Yes. The term -- of course it's right that it's an

18 important distinction. The term "dissolving" is used in the evidence of

19 the witness last Friday, dissolving the militia. But the questions I

20 propose to ask relate of course to the disarming of Hezbollah.

21 Q. Have I, first of all, accurately summarized the evidence that you

22 gave us last Friday?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. And the issue of Hezbollah's weapons, it was hoped, would be

25 solved by way of dialogue; that's right, isn't it?

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1 A. I think that the question is about the position of Premier

2 Hariri?

3 Q. Correct.

4 A. Premier Hariri's position was the following: We can address this

5 issue at the internal level.

6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Edwards, I don't want to bang on and

7 sound too pedantic, if I just go back and Judge Akoum pointed this out to

8 me, where you said the term "dissolving" has been used in the evidence of

9 the witness last Friday, dissolving the militia, are you referring there

10 to all militia, as is specified in the Taif Agreement, or specifically

11 here the militia of Hezbollah?

12 MR. EDWARDS: Well, that was exactly what I was hoping to clarify

13 because I'm -- it's not entirely clear from the witness's evidence from

14 last Friday. So that's what I'm trying to pin down.

15 Q. Let's deal with that right away, then, Dr. Khoury. You've heard

16 what the Presiding Judge has said. In your evidence from last Friday you

17 talk about the dissolving of the militias. Can you just explain what you

18 meant by that?

19 A. Disbanding the militias was mentioned in Resolution 1559;

20 however, if we were tackling the issue of the Hezbollah, which is an

21 armed force in Lebanon, the position of Prime Minister Hariri was, as I

22 said earlier, that he did not want the international community to impose

23 a certain timing or dead-line on the Lebanese and that we as Lebanese can

24 address this issue internally.

25 Q. I want to focus now specifically on proposals to disarm

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1 Hezbollah. All right? Because in your evidence yesterday you said that

2 Mr. Hariri used to say, "I don't want to do what happened in Algeria."

3 That's taken directly from the transcript, but essentially

4 Mr. Hariri said: I don't want what happened in Algeria to be repeated in

5 Lebanon.

6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: [Overlapping speakers] --

7 MR. EDWARDS:

8 Q. Can you explain to us what you understood Mr. Hariri to mean when

9 he made reference to Algeria?

10 A. In fact, Premier Hariri wanted to convey the following message:

11 If he was in power as a Prime Minister he would never accept to resort to

12 military power to disband the militias, which means, for instance, he

13 would not accept any struggle between the Lebanese army and the Hezbollah

14 to disarm the Hezbollah. That's why he said that he did not want to see

15 a repetition of what we saw in Algeria in terms of bloodshed. He was

16 giving Algeria as an example. That's why he used to consider that any

17 solution should be by ways of a political process based on dialogue

18 involving Hezbollah with this political process and this -- this is what

19 he had been seeking in the last weeks of his life by paving the way for

20 dialogue with the Hezbollah in order to reach an agreement, first of all,

21 for the upcoming elections.

22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Edwards, can you just help us with a --

23 assist us by giving us the transcript reference to Algeria. And if

24 you're going to refer to the evidence, it would help -- I can see you've

25 got the transcript there - just to indicate the page numbers as you go.

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1 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, Your Honour, it's page 38 from last Friday's

2 evidence, that's 16th of January, and I'm looking specifically at line 23

3 and then lines 24 and 25.

4 Q. And have I got this right, that Mr. Hariri's position that he

5 would resign before his government before the Lebanese army was ever used

6 to attack Hezbollah?

7 A. For the sake of more precision he said, "I would resign before

8 the government would adopt a position calling for resorting to military

9 strength or power.

10 Q. And was this a position that Mr. Hariri held privately, held

11 secretly? Or was this a position that was publicly known?

12 A. Premier Hariri did not issue any comment regarding

13 Resolution 1559, be it positively or negatively. However, many

14 journalists, many Lebanese politicians who met Premier Hariri used to

15 hear from him this position. And I also think that during his

16 discussions with the Hezbollah leadership, I think that he -- they heard

17 also this position from him.

18 Q. Thank you. You've anticipated my next question. You say: I

19 think that they, meaning the Hezbollah leadership, would have heard this

20 position from him. Is this because Mr. Hariri had told you that he had

21 made his position clear to the Hezbollah leadership?

22 A. He never told me this. I am drawing conclusions from what we

23 used to hear from him and from discussions in public meetings or talks

24 with the journalists.

25 Q. Well, let me put it this way: Have you any reason to believe

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1 that he would have kept his position a secret from Hezbollah leadership?

2 A. I do not know.

3 Q. Well, when I ask: Have you any reason to believe, either you may

4 have reason to believe that he would keep it a secret or you would not

5 have any reason to believe he would keep it a secret from the Hezbollah

6 leadership.

7 A. I told you earlier that Premier Hariri was saying this to me, to

8 my colleagues, the MPs, and to the journalists, and I think that

9 Hezbollah heard of this. Was it directly from Prime Minister Hariri or

10 not? I do not know, I cannot confirm it, but for sure they heard about

11 it. The leadership of Hezbollah heard about it. It wasn't said in

12 secret, in closed meetings, in one-on-one meetings. It was discussed in

13 public meetings and during his discussions with the journalists.

14 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Dr. Khoury, you said that there

15 was a meeting between Premier Hariri and Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah

16 regarding -- to address issues pertaining to the elections and the

17 coalition for the upcoming elections in 2005. Don't you think that he

18 tackled this matter clearly with Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, and I mean by

19 this his position vis-à-vis the 1559 resolution?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will tell you what I

21 know of. I know that Premier Hariri started a discussion or a dialogue

22 with the Hezbollah in order to secure a coalition for the elections of

23 2005. I also know that he gave assurances to the Hezbollah to tell them

24 that should the opposition win in the elections, they will not be

25 aggressive to the Hezbollah. There was no animosity to Hezbollah. And I

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1 also know that what he shared with us he had also tackled with the

2 leadership of the Hezbollah. However, I never attended such meetings

3 between him and the Hezbollah, and Prime Minister Hariri never briefed me

4 or briefed my colleague Bassel Fuleihan about these meetings, about the

5 details of such meetings. We would only ask him about the general

6 topics, but we never got into the details about such meetings with the

7 Hezbollah.

8 MR. EDWARDS:

9 Q. It would have made good political sense in the context of the

10 dialogue that he was having with the Hezbollah leadership for Mr. Hariri

11 to reassure Hezbollah that his coalition would not have posed any threat

12 to them; would you agree?

13 A. I have just said that.

14 Q. Yes. And in terms of the dialogue, in terms of the agreement

15 that the Hezbollah leadership and Rafik Hariri were reaching for, there

16 were, as it were, common understandings, weren't there, between the two?

17 A. [In English] Electoral common understanding, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd now like to move on very briefly to the

19 article in Al-Hayat that you were asked about a little while ago.

20 MR. EDWARDS: This is Prosecution Exhibit 369, Your Honour, and I

21 think the Arabic original and the translation can be found at 6 and 7 in

22 our presentation queue.

23 Q. Do you have a copy of that article in front of you, Dr. Khoury?

24 Yes, I see you do.

25 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

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1 Q. Can we agree that the article deals for the most part with the

2 implementation of Resolution 1559, and specifically the efforts of

3 Terje Roed-Larsen to work with the Syrian leadership and indeed the

4 consequences for Syria if the implementation of Resolution 1559 was

5 unsuccessful?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And would this be a fair summary, that the article mentions that

8 it had been made clear to Syria that it was very much in Syria's interest

9 to implement Resolution 1559?

10 A. I think that this is what we read in the article.

11 Q. We can also agree, can't we, that the only paragraph that makes

12 any reference to threats to Mr. Hariri or Mr. Jumblatt is the final

13 paragraph of that article; is that right?

14 A. I cannot read the whole article right now, but the main topic was

15 the attempt to implement Resolution 1559 and also the security threat

16 mentioned at the end of the article.

17 Q. All right. Well, just looking at the last paragraph, you'd agree

18 with me that it makes no reference to there being any intelligence

19 suggesting there was a specific threat to the safety of Mr. Hariri or

20 indeed to anyone else?

21 A. No, I do not agree. I think that the journalist conveyed

22 information and she mentioned the term that the international community

23 sent a clear message. Whether this information was based on journalistic

24 sources or intelligence, et cetera, or political sources, I cannot

25 confirm it. And as you know, my dear friend, journalists have the right

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1 to hide their sources of information.

2 Q. Of course --

3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Edwards and Dr. Khoury, I'm just looking

4 at the time. It's -- I'm not sure, Dr. Khoury, we can comfortably finish

5 your evidence today, given that we have another counsel who wish to ask

6 you questions. I haven't been able to get any inside information, so to

7 speak, as to your movements tomorrow. Can I just ask you -- I don't

8 normally do this in court, but I just have to at this particular point.

9 What's your availability to come back tomorrow morning to complete your

10 testimony?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you wish so, Your Honour, then

12 my answer is yes.

13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I reluctantly have to say that I think

14 that's what we're going to have to do. Let me explain the reason:

15 Because Mr. Edwards needs to finish his questioning and then another

16 Defence counsel also has to -- wants to ask you questions. As you know,

17 the Judges might wish to ask you a few more questions and then

18 Mr. Cameron has the right to -- what we call -- as it's been explained to

19 you, re-examine, which basically means -- to clarify anything that the

20 Defence counsel have asked of you in their questions. So I don't want to

21 risk rushing through it at high speed or sitting beyond what would be

22 humane for the interpreters, you, and everyone else in the court. So on

23 that basis we will thank you very much for your forebearance and patience

24 in coming back for a third day today and I do -- I know I said to you

25 this morning we will finish with you today. Unfortunately, just like in

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1 the parliamentary session you were telling us about, we didn't get to the

2 main item, which was finishing your testimony. But we will definitely do

3 it tomorrow.

4 Is there anything else we need to raise before we rise for the

5 day? Mr. Edwards.

6 MR. EDWARDS: Only it may be of some reassurance to Dr. Khoury

7 that I've got about six or seven more minutes, that's all. I don't say

8 that to put pressure on the Bench to allow me to finish today; I'm simply

9 mentioning that I don't have very much more.

10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Edwards, I've explained the process,

11 even when people say they're only going to be six or seven minutes,

12 Mr. Aoun said he would be two questions and I think we had to triple his

13 estimate, so it's probably safer for us to adjourn now.

14 And again, Dr. Khoury, I just remind you as we did before, please

15 don't discuss your evidence with anyone over night. We know you won't.

16 We'll see you back here at 10.00 tomorrow morning. Court is adjourned.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.02 p.m. 18

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Tuesday, 20 January 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic.