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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 1
1 Special Tribunal for Lebanon
2 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Ayyash, Badreddine, Merhi,
3 Oneissi, and Sabra
4 STL-11-01
5 Presiding Judge David Re, Judge Janet Nosworthy,
6 Judge Micheline Braidy, Judge Walid Akoum, and
7 Judge Nicola Lettieri - [Trial Chamber]
8 Tuesday, 19 May 2015 - [Trial Hearing]
9 [Open Session]
10 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The Special Tribunal for Lebanon is sitting in an
12 open session in the case of the Prosecutor versus Ayyash, Badreddine,
13 Merhi, Oneissi, and Sabra, case number STL-11-01.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning to everyone.
15 Could we please have appearances starting with the Prosecutor?
16 Good morning, Mr. Cameron.
17 MR. CAMERON: Good morning, Your Honour. It's Graeme Cameron for
18 the Prosecution, assisted by Ms. Skye Winner.
19 MR. HAYNES: Morning, Your Honour. Peter Haynes for the
20 participating victims, together with Mohammad Mattar and our case manager
21 Kiat Wei Ng.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And for the Defence.
23 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm Tom Hannis
24 representing the interests of Salim Ayyash.
25 MR. EDWARDS: Good morning, Your Honours, Iain Edwards
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 2
1 representing the interests of Mustafa Badreddine, together with
2 Pauline Baranes.
3 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour,
4 ladies and gentlemen, the Judges. Philippe Larochelle to represent
5 Mr. Oneissi. Good morning.
6 MR. ROBERTS: Good morning, Your Honours. Geoff Roberts on
7 behalf of Assad Sabra.
8 MS. LE FRAPER: [Interpretation] Good morning. My name is
9 Dorothée Le Fraper and Maître Jad Khalil defending Mr. Merhi. Thank you.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And I note there are two representatives of
11 the Defence Office seated in the court today.
12 Mr. Cameron, before we start with the witness, I think our Legal
13 Officer sent an e-mail yesterday in relation to some redactions. We
14 don't need to deal with it at the moment, but if at some point during the
15 day you could give us a progress report on that matter we would be
16 grateful.
17 MR. CAMERON: I can do it in very short order now if you wish.
18 We're very close as to -- counsel for Mr. Sabra had asked for unredacted
19 versions for six witnesses, but in actual fact only four witnesses gave
20 such statements. And of those four, all of the statements have been
21 disclosed in an unredacted form to Mr. Sabra's counsel except for one,
22 which was the subject of an order by the Trial Chamber of November the
23 8th, 2013, F1212, which was required to remain redacted. Now, we've
24 indicated to the Court through e-mail in the past that we would be
25 content to disclose unredacted, but it would require an adjustment to
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 3
1 that particular order. And if you were content to make that adjustment,
2 we would disclose that remaining small statement immediately.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We can make the adjustment, but I would just
4 need a little bit more information to do it. But if you can get back to
5 me at some later point.
6 MR. CAMERON: I provided the information to your court officer
7 already and perhaps he can supply you with the relevant order.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you for that, Mr. Cameron.
9 The other matter was Mr. Larochelle --
10 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yesterday you notified our Legal Officer --
12 senior Legal Officer about three possible questions for certification for
13 interlocutory appeal from our decision in relation to the Call Data
14 Records. They've been -- your question has been circulated to the other
15 parties and the Prosecutor. I just want to reiterate, because it
16 appeared from the e-mail that you wished to file written submissions in
17 support -- I reiterate we don't want them. We've already said and the
18 Prosecutor's agreed that it's a certifiable issue. The question is:
19 What question goes up, so to speak? So please don't burden yourself, the
20 Prosecution, the other parties, and the Chamber with a written motion, a
21 needless written motion.
22 If I can just turn to Mr. Cameron. Have you had a chance to look
23 at this particular question -- these three particular questions which
24 Mr. Larochelle has had circulated? And do you have any comment on them
25 at the moment? If you don't have any at the moment, we can return to it
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 4
1 later. There's no urgency.
2 MR. CAMERON: I'd be grateful to return to it later. We have
3 looked at it. We would like to consider it further, but we can certainly
4 advise you today.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do counsel for any of the other accused have
6 any comments or is this, so to speak, a joint collaborative effort or has
7 there been consultation and you have nothing to say?
8 MR. EDWARDS: There's been a degree of consultation between the
9 Badreddine Defence and the Oneissi Defence, Your Honour, to the extent
10 that I think the Badreddine Defence team was the only other Defence team
11 to raise the matter of legality in its response to the Prosecution
12 motion, and reference to those submissions are made in paragraph 62 of
13 the Trial Chamber's decision. We ally ourselves to the Sabra team's
14 submissions. That's -- forgive me, the Oneissi team's submissions.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Thank you for that.
16 If we could return to the Prosecutor. Mr. Cameron, we have
17 Mr. Hani Hammoud testifying and I take it he's outside ready to enter the
18 court in a moment. There is one point relating to protective measures of
19 someone he refers to. How are you going to deal with that?
20 MR. CAMERON: This is something that we've considered at length.
21 The protective measures relate to the person's role as a potential
22 witness in the proceedings, not necessarily as a historical actor in the
23 narrative of events. And so that's how we would deal with it.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. I understand. All right. Can the
25 witness please be brought into court.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 5 Procedural Matters
1 Mr. Cameron, can you please let us know what your plans are, what
2 your road map or skeletal outline of Mr. Hammoud's evidence will be.
3 MR. CAMERON: Mr. ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 MR. CAMERON: Mr. Hammoud --
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning to you, Mr. Hammoud.
8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can you please take the solemn declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: HANI HAMMOUD
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We just need to get some personal details
15 from you. I just will ask you if it's correct and if you could just say
16 yes or no. Your name is Hani Hammoud. You were born in Saida, in
17 Lebanon, in 1963. You're the editor-in-chief of Al Mustaqbal and
18 chairman of Future TV and you're a media adviser to the former Lebanese
19 Prime Minister Saad Hariri and you are a Lebanese national. Are those
20 details correct or do you need to correct them?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. And in just a moment I'm going
23 to hand you over to the Prosecutor, but before I do that I'm going to say
24 something to you and he's going to give us a very brief outline of the
25 evidence he wants you to give or expects you to give which will also help
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 6 Procedural Matters
1 you. Just a short reminder, we know that you speak fluent Arabic,
2 French, and English, the three languages of the Tribunal. You're likely
3 to get questions in all three languages. We have interpreters and a
4 court reporter over there and there's also a transcript just to your left
5 on the screen, so if you could just have a look at the transcript to your
6 left on the screen and watch the words being typed. You see? I paused.
7 You have to do the same. It's a discipline, but please just glance to
8 the left to follow that. When the typing stops, that's when you can
9 speak. Thank you.
10 Mr. Cameron.
11 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Your Honour. As you will hear,
12 Mr. Hammoud was a journalist whose merit in his profession allowed him to
13 rise to the position of chief editor of Al Mustaqbal Newspaper and to
14 become one of the principal media advisers to the Prime Minister,
15 although, as I expect you'll hear, behind a veil for some period.
16 Mr. Hammoud met with the Prime Minister almost daily for many years and
17 accompanied him on most of his travels abroad. He was a witness to a
18 number of significant conversations which the Prime Minister had with
19 others, particularly in circumstances where messages were delivered to
20 the Prime Minister. He can also describe what the Prime Minister
21 personally told him about his meetings with people such as President
22 Bashar Al-Assad, Brigadier-General Rustom Ghazaleh, and Deputy Foreign
23 Minister Walid Moallem. As the chief editor of a major newspaper in
24 Lebanon, Mr. Hammoud is also in a position to describe some of the major
25 events occurring after the assassination of the Prime Minister, including
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 7 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 the nature of the demonstrations on the 8th and 14th of March,
2 respectively.
3 Examination by Mr. Cameron:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hammoud.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. I'd like to deal briefly with some of your background, if I may,
7 before going to the more salient aspects of your evidence. I understand
8 that you've been in the media business - if I can put it that way - since
9 1986 when you worked for the Arab business magazine in Paris; is that
10 correct?
11 A. Yes, in 1986.
12 Q. And around 1988 or 1989 you met Prime Minister Hariri, then
13 Rafik Hariri, and eventually he asked you to come and work with him in
14 Lebanon; is that right?
15 A. That is correct. At the beginning he asked me to work with him
16 in Paris and to be in charge of Radio Orient that he used to own, and
17 later on, namely, in 1998, he asked me to return to Lebanon and to work
18 with him in Lebanon.
19 Q. Was it 1992 or 1998 that you returned to Lebanon?
20 A. 1998.
21 Q. And I gather that after the Prime Minister's election in the year
22 2000 he also asked you to become his media adviser; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. And you held that post in a formal sense from around the year
25 2000 up until the year 2003; is that right?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 8 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. Right.
2 Q. And then something happened in 2003 which I'm going to ask you
3 about. Now, there are some occasions when I'm going to ask you to
4 explain things in fairly small detail and other occasions where I'm going
5 to ask you to describe it in fairly broad-brush strokes. This is one of
6 the latter occasions when I'm going to ask you to describe for the
7 Tribunal in very broad terms and succinctly what generally happened in
8 2003 to alter your position as the public media adviser for
9 Prime Minister Hariri?
10 A. At the beginning of 2003 and, if I remember well, on the 4th of
11 January, 2004, our media office issued a statement regarding the
12 re-opening of MTV TV channel which was shut down upon an order from the
13 Lebanese judges due to pressure from the Lebanese-Syrian security
14 apparatus. This -- according to my knowledge, this has led to
15 creation -- to some anger from -- by the Syrian leadership and they
16 exerted pressure on Prime Minister Hariri to dismiss me and to put an end
17 to my work with him.
18 Q. And do you know how that message was communicated to the Prime
19 Minister?
20 A. To my recollection, the message was conveyed to him via
21 Mr. Rustom Ghazaleh, head of the Syrian intelligence in Lebanon back
22 then, and he told him this was a request from the Syrian President Bashar
23 Assad; based also on my recollection, I think that Rustom Ghazaleh called
24 Mr. Hariri by phone and later on a meeting was held between
25 Rustom Ghazaleh and late General Wissam El-Hassan.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 9 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You're going to ask the witness how he knows
2 this? Thank you.
3 MR. CAMERON:
4 Q. And did you have conversations with the Prime Minister personally
5 about this issue and about his conversation with Rustom Ghazaleh?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what did the Prime Minister tell you that Rustom Ghazaleh had
8 told him?
9 A. He told me, "They went crazy and they are holding you responsible
10 for this statement, and Rustom Ghazaleh is saying that you either have to
11 lay off Hani Hammoud or that if you don't do it, then it means that you
12 are approving this statement." He added, "I cannot protect you and I
13 don't want any problems with President Bashar Assad. That is why we will
14 try to apply a certain trick."
15 Q. Before you continue, what -- just to be sure, when is your
16 recollection that this conversation or series of conversations occurred?
17 A. I remember that they were held in the office of Mr. Hariri in the
18 Grand Serail in Beirut on the 7th of January, 2003.
19 Q. And in a nutshell, what was it about the statement or the
20 position that you had taken that caused such consternation?
21 A. In September 2002 MTV - also known as Murr Television - was
22 closed down based on a judicial order by the Lebanese judiciary. They
23 were forbidden from undertaking any broadcasting activities. This was
24 due to a pressure from the Syrian regime and also in particular from the
25 Lebanese President Emile Lahoud. At the end of the same year, at the end
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 10 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 of 2002, New TV, known as Al Jadeed TV, advertised a political talk show.
2 If I remember well the title of the political talk show was "Bila Rakib"
3 or "Without Censorship." According to the advertisement, that episode
4 was about an attack or a campaign against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and
5 its government.
6 In order to provide you with some context, in the meantime let me
7 explain to you that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is very important for
8 Lebanon in terms of bilateral relationships. Hundreds of thousands of
9 Lebanese work in Saudi Arabia. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has granted
10 generous donations to Lebanon in terms of politics, economics, financial
11 assistance, et cetera, namely, in the era called era of reconstruction or
12 post-Israeli invasion.
13 Prime Minister Hariri thought or felt that broadcasting such an
14 episode would cause Lebanon huge problems.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I just need some context there, Mr. Hammoud.
16 Firstly, what was your job in September 2002 apart from being
17 Mr. Hariri's political adviser or media adviser? What was your position
18 with MTV?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My position was the media adviser
20 of the Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. I was also in charge of news and
21 political programmes in Future TV or Al Mustaqbal TV owned by Mr. Hariri.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. What I'm trying to work out is
23 the relationship between the statement I think you said you were issuing
24 as Mr. Hariri's media adviser - is that correct? - and the closure of
25 MTV.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 11 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 THE WITNESS: I am getting there, Your Honour.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes. As a journalist, I think you know
3 context before detail is very important. If you could give us the
4 context and then the small details, that would really help -- help me for
5 one.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right. The incident I'm
7 trying to relate to you is the following: MTV was closed down. New TV
8 had to stop its broadcast via satellite upon a request from the Lebanese
9 prime minister because it would have caused problems. Later on, based on
10 a request from the president of the republic, Emile Lahoud, it resumes
11 its broadcast via satellite. On this occasion we issued a statement
12 commenting on the resumption of broadcast via satellite that was allowed
13 to New TV and we asked for similar measures to re-open MTV. And this
14 statement issued by the office of Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was the
15 source of the problem I'm talking about.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Let's just go back. Also about the
17 closure of MTV, you said it was based on a judicial order by the Lebanese
18 judiciary due to pressure from the Syrian regime and also in particular
19 from Lebanese President Emile Lahoud. What do you know about that? How
20 do you conclude that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From direct information from
22 Prime Minister Rafik Hariri and from colleagues, journalists, and from
23 the people directly concerned, that is to say, the owners of the
24 television channel MTV.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You said it was closed by the Lebanese
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 12 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 judiciary due to pressure from the Syrian regime. Can you please tell us
2 what you mean by that and how you know that? What was the pressure and
3 how do you know the Lebanese judiciary succumbed to it?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time when MTV television was
5 closed down, the Prime Minister Rafik Hariri - and I was working next to
6 him - did the impossible to stop the closure of this TV channel. And
7 when the date of the issuance of the judicial order came, Prime Minister
8 Hariri was certain that the judicial order would be taken against the
9 interest of MTV channel because of direct information in his possession
10 that things were done under direct pressure by the Syrian regime in
11 Lebanon and the representatives of the Syrian regime in Lebanon and by
12 the president of the republic, Emile Lahoud.
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. You're going to have to do a
14 little bit better than that. You've got to the conclusion that the
15 judges closed it based upon pressure from Mr. Lahoud and the Syrians.
16 And you've said that Mr. Rafik Hariri had direct information about that.
17 Did he tell you what the information was?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me, "I have direct
19 information they are exerting pressure, the Syrians and Emile Lahoud are
20 exerting pressure." I heard that from Prime Minister Hariri.
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Is that the entirety of your knowledge about
22 the circumstances in the judicial order closing MTV? That Mr. Hariri
23 told you he had direct information that the Syrians and Mr. Lahoud had
24 exerted pressure on the judges or do you have something more you can tell
25 us?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 13 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other information came
2 constantly from colleagues, journalists, everybody in the country was
3 talking about the question of MTV. And the colleagues, journalists,
4 before the issuance of the order, were speaking constantly of the fact --
5 they were saying the rumours and information disclosed say that the
6 channel will be closed following a political decision by the regimes in
7 place in Syria and Lebanon at the time.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What was the statement that -- about this
9 that you were issuing on behalf of Mr. Hariri in, I think, January 2004?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please allow me. I would like
11 to complete the conditions around the issuance of the order and I will
12 give you the details of the order.
13 At the end of 2002, Prime Minister Hariri asked the minister of
14 communication at the time Jean-Louis Qordahi to stop the satellite
15 broadcasting of New TV channel because of this programme it intended to
16 broadcast. Minister Qordahi stopped the satellite broadcast and on the
17 4th of January, 2003, Minister Qordahi sent an official letter to Prime
18 Minister Rafik Hariri, informing him that because New TV channel went to
19 see the ISF and signed an agreement stipulated -- stipulating that it
20 would not broadcast the given programme on Saudi Arabia, it was
21 authorized once again to broadcast and he is informing the Prime Minister
22 of this decision. This document came before a meeting of the Council of
23 Ministers, during which the question was to be studied. When the letter
24 of the Minister Qordahi arrived, the media office of the Prime Minister
25 published a declaration and before that we distributed the letter to the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 14 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 media, which was unusual. Then we published a declaration saying: Since
2 New TV was authorized to restart broadcasting because it signed a
3 commitment to the ISF and because of the closure of MTV, Murr Television,
4 led to distorting the image of media in Lebanon, we ask Murr Television,
5 MTV, to go to the ISF to sign a similar commitment to be allowed to
6 restart broadcasting. So this is the declaration that has led to the
7 unrest of the Syrian regime and its allies in Lebanon.
8 MR. CAMERON:
9 Q. So --
10 JUDGE LETTIERI: Do you remember which were the legal grounds at
11 the basis of the judicial order for the closure of MTV?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I recall well that it violated
13 the legislation on audio -- the law of audiovisual -- the audiovisual
14 law.
15 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Mr. Hani, were the conditions at
16 the time linked to the election of both Murr brothers and the conflict
17 between the two brothers? Were the conditions those? And one of the
18 brothers was close to the Syrians and the other was close to the
19 Christian opposition?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. MTV was closed after an
21 electoral campaign in the Metn area and this electoral battle, in
22 summary, was between the two brothers you have mentioned. But the
23 decision to close MTV, Murr Television, was mainly due -- it wasn't the
24 legal excuse but the real reason was the clear opposition to President
25 Emile Lahoud and the Syrian presence in Lebanon.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 15 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 JUDGE LETTIERI: There was the possibility to lodge an appeal
2 against the judicial order?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not a legal expert. I cannot
4 give you an accurate answer, but on the political front it was like a
5 life sentence on MTV television. There was no political hope of a
6 decision to allow MTV to broadcast again.
7 JUDGE LETTIERI: Which kind of violation of the legislation on
8 audio was in dispute, what was the basis of the judicial order of
9 closure?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Honestly, I do not recall, but what
11 I can tell you is that MTV waited for seven years before it was able to
12 broadcast again, seven years.
13 JUDGE LETTIERI: So in conclusion, you don't -- you maintain that
14 this was a political option, the closure of the MTV, but anyway you
15 cannot enter into the details of the judicial -- of the legal grounds of
16 the judicial order, isn't it?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is correct.
18 MR. CAMERON:
19 Q. Okay. The point I want to get to is this, that the statement
20 that caused such consternation was a statement relating to a request,
21 public request, for the re-opening of MTV. Is that it in a nutshell?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And as a result of that public request, as I understand your
24 evidence, there was a conversation or a series of conversations between
25 Rustom Ghazaleh on behalf of the Syrians and the Prime Minister and you
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 16 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 knew about those conversations because the Prime Minister told you; is
2 that correct?
3 A. This is true.
4 Q. And the essential request was that -- from the Syrians via
5 Rustom Ghazaleh was that you be removed as the media adviser for the
6 Prime Minister on the basis that if he didn't do it the Prime Minister
7 was, in essence, agreeing with the statement; is that it?
8 A. Yes, this is correct.
9 Q. And then you said that the Prime Minister wanted to resort to a
10 trick in order to maintain your service to him. Now, in general terms,
11 general terms, what was the nature of your relationship with the Prime
12 Minister after that?
13 A. On that day the Prime Minister told me, "We will gather the
14 people from the media of the Serail, the Grand Serail, we will tell them
15 that you have left your position as media adviser and that you will be
16 entrusted as chief editor of Al Mustaqbal Newspaper, but I'm telling you
17 that I will not nominate another media adviser in your position. You
18 will remain my media adviser. Nothing changes except that you come home
19 every morning before you go to work and every evening when you finish
20 your work you come to my home and things continue as usual but your title
21 is no more media adviser."
22 I agreed. We gathered the journalists of the Grand Serail, they
23 were informed, and a declaration was made that I was nominated chief
24 editor of Al Mustaqbal Newspaper.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just on the transcript it says:
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 17 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 "Nothing changes except that you come home every morning ..."
2 Did you say -- is Mr. Hariri saying: You will come to my home
3 every morning before you go off to your day job and then come to his
4 house afterwards? The translation is a little bit out, I think. Is that
5 right?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is correct.
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Was Mr. Hariri asking you to do more work
8 then or was it the same as you had been doing before?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Operationally, the work was the
10 same except for the presence at the Grand Serail, the government Grand
11 Serail, next to him during office hours. The additional work was the
12 responsibility of being chief editor of Al Mustaqbal Newspaper.
13 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] When were you laid off of as media
14 adviser, what is the date?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I recall well, my resignation
16 was declared on the 7th of January, 2003, before the journalists present
17 at the Grand Serail.
18 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] On the day Rustom Ghazaleh met with
19 Prime Minister Hariri, the same day?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rustom Ghazaleh did not meet Prime
21 Minister Hariri. Rustom Ghazaleh contacted by phone Prime Minister
22 Hariri and Wissam El-Hassan met with Rustom Ghazaleh either on the same
23 day or the day before.
24 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] To clarify a question put to you by
25 Judge Lettieri pertaining to the decision to close -- to appeal the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 18 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 decisions on the audiovisual law, there are no appeals in such situation.
2 Cases are sent to cassation and this is what happened. And the chamber
3 studying the question in cassation confirmed the decision in a majority
4 vote.
5 MR. CAMERON:
6 Q. What was your understanding as to why the Syrians cared one way
7 or the other about your statement that MTV should be re-opened? Why did
8 they care?
9 A. As the Syrian regime at the time was the main player that had
10 taken the political decision to close MTV channel with President Emile
11 Lahoud at the time, they considered this declaration by Prime Minister
12 Hariri as a direct challenge to their will. And in one way or another it
13 was a violation of what was called formally the Damascus Protocol which
14 had been agreed upon -- please, I correct myself. I strike this. The
15 Damascus Protocol took place later on. But it was considered as a direct
16 challenge to their political will by the prime minister of Lebanon and
17 this is something they could not bear with.
18 Q. So there's the call from Brigadier-General Ghazaleh to the Prime
19 Minister, a meeting with Wissam El-Hassan and Rustom Ghazaleh, then
20 there's a request that you be sacked, and instead of actually firing you
21 the Prime Minister doubles your workload. You continue to be his media
22 adviser and you become the editor of Al Mustaqbal, but as media adviser
23 you're now in the shadows. Is that it at this stage by maybe the middle
24 of February 2003?
25 A. At the beginning of 2003, yes.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 19 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. So after this change of circumstance, what's a typical day like
2 with you in respect of your contact with the Prime Minister from this
3 period on until the time of his assassination?
4 A. An ordinary work day, between 7.00 and 8.00 in the morning I
5 would go to my house [as interpreted], which was 200 metres away from the
6 house of the Prime Minister, to his house. Usually I would go to his
7 private quarters on the seventh floor. I would spend the early morning
8 hours with him until 10.00 more or less. And at 10.00 we would go down
9 to the fifth floor which was the place where he would welcome people.
10 His office was on the fifth floor as well and he would either meet with
11 people who were waiting for him or would go to the Grand Serail,
12 depending on the days. Very often, but not all the time, I would come
13 back at lunch time, either to have lunch with him and many people. He
14 would welcome a delegation for lunch or had people he had invited for
15 lunch. And after that I would come back to his house in the evening in
16 two phases, around 5.00 until half past 7.00, 7.00, half past 7.00, then
17 I would go back to the newspaper and then come back a second time in the
18 evening between half past 8.00 or 9.00 and stay with him until he would
19 go to bed, around 11.00 in the evening.
20 And my work in his house, in his place of residence was the
21 following. In the morning we would do a press review, look at the
22 political situation, his programme if there was an important political
23 event in his programme. And in the afternoon and in the evening, my job
24 was to be here with colleagues, journalists, who would come and meet him
25 or in some situations to participate to some meetings he would invite me
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 20 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 to join in in his house.
2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Hammoud, would it have been an open secret
3 that you continued as the media adviser of the Prime Minister,
4 Mr. Hariri? Do you think this fact would have been known by, apparent
5 to, Rustom Ghazaleh, Wissam El-Hassan, and the Lebanese-Syrian security?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To clarify, Wissam El-Hassan was
7 not a member of the Syrian-Lebanese services, only to clarify that point.
8 There is an official position clarified in a contract signed by me and
9 the Secretariat of the Council of Ministers, according to which I was the
10 media adviser of the Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. This was a job
11 contract. This contract was ceased when I resigned, it was revoked when
12 I resigned. But I was working in the Al Mustaqbal television, Future
13 TV -- Future TV, so I was a journalist working for him on a private level
14 and people knew that, but I was not his official media adviser as Prime
15 Minister.
16 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Yes, that was my understanding, that he carried
17 out this trick where you essentially continued working as his media
18 adviser, going to him in the mornings before work, returning to him after
19 work, consulting with him on other occasions, whilst you held down your
20 job with the other media house. So what I wanted to know, this trick
21 that you yourself have spoken of which the Prime Minister planned, do you
22 think that it was an open secret or common knowledge that you were still
23 effectively in the job which he pretended to have removed you from when
24 he made the announcement at the Grand Serail? That is what I wanted to
25 discover from you.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 21 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I resigned from my job in the Grand
2 Serail, that is to say, in the official institution belonging to the
3 Lebanese state called the Prime Minister's office or the Presidency of
4 the Council of Ministers. And the Prime Minister wanted to reduce the
5 pressure of the Syrians by saying: He resigned from his position. But
6 Prime Minister Hariri did not withdraw me from his private media
7 entourage.
8 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The question was whether it was openly --
10 whether it was known, whether it was an open secret you were still
11 working for Mr. Hariri.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and it was not a secret.
13 MR. CAMERON:
14 Q. Your job stayed pretty much the same, your working hours were
15 adjusted, but the essence of your job stayed pretty much the same, didn't
16 it, in terms of your advice to the Prime Minister on media issues; is
17 that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And just to follow-up on Judge Nosworthy's question, after your
20 formal resignation, people generally knew that you were still active in
21 that role, albeit not pursuant to a formal contract anymore; is that
22 right?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And sort of the daily schedule, which sounds very impressive,
25 each day, did that carry on from that period of time all the way up until
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 22 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 mid-February of 2005 in general terms while the Prime Minister was in the
2 country?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when the Prime Minister left the country and went abroad, how
5 often would you accompany him, if ever?
6 A. I would accompany him, but less often than when I would travel
7 with him when I was his official media adviser as prime minister. So in
8 official visits I would be 100 per cent with him, and after that, I only
9 participated to 50 per cent of the official visits. Now, on private
10 visits, I was almost always with him before and after.
11 Q. Now, in your conversations with the Prime Minister, how would you
12 characterize your relationship in terms of candour? Was he -- would you
13 consider that you spoke in candid terms to each other or did he tell you
14 certain things but not others? Do you have a sense of the degree to
15 which the Prime Minister -- how the Prime Minister spoke with you about
16 issues that were on his mind?
17 MR. EDWARDS: Your Honour, forgive me, before the witness the
18 answers that question, logically this witness cannot tell the Court what
19 it is that the Prime Minister didn't tell him. He may be able to give
20 the Court evidence that he, the witness, spoke candidly with
21 Rafik Hariri; but he's not in a position to give reliable evidence about
22 the candour of information given from the Prime Minister to him.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Or unless he has his own sources to
24 independently verify whether the Prime Minister was being truthful or
25 otherwise with him. That's the experience of life. We can check up on
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 23 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 what people are telling us, whether it's accurate or not.
2 MR. EDWARDS: Perhaps, but that wasn't the question.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The witness must be able to give the Court
4 his view as to whether he thought Mr. Hariri was candid with him and why.
5 You can't object to it in that -- if it's posed in that way. If he gives
6 his reasons to why he thought Mr. Hariri was being candid with him or
7 not.
8 MR. EDWARDS: We would all be interested in hearing why he
9 thought that, yes.
10 MR. CAMERON:
11 Q. Okay. Let's take it one step at a time. In your conversations
12 with the Prime Minister, were you candid and forthright in what you said
13 to him?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did that occur even in circumstances where you might say
16 something he didn't want to hear?
17 A. Yes, but with all due respect.
18 Q. I'm sure you said things very politely to him. Now, on the other
19 side of the coin, just dealing first with your impression, was it your
20 impression that in turn the Prime Minister spoke candidly with you about
21 the issues that you discussed with him?
22 A. Yes, in other terms I was employed by Rafik Hariri. I used to
23 work for him. I was not his friend, I was not his counterpart or peer.
24 I used to work for Rafik Hariri. Accordingly, Rafik Hariri was very
25 candid and forthright when he wanted to give an answer and also when he
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 24 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 did not want to give an answer. Rafik Hariri was known to be a frank
2 person. However, when I used to put to him a question and if he did not
3 want to give me an answer, he used to tell me very frankly, very openly:
4 "I do not want to give you an answer to this question and please do not
5 interfere in this matter."
6 Q. Did you ever come across a circumstance where the Prime Minister
7 had told you something and that you later learned from other sources that
8 what the Prime Minister had told you was untrue or not as he had framed
9 it? Did that ever occur?
10 A. Not that I can remember.
11 Q. Now, you had a role in Future TV in 2003 I think you mentioned;
12 is that correct?
13 A. Yes, Al Mustaqbal TV, also known as Future TV.
14 Q. And you were the editor-in-chief by then of Al Mustaqbal
15 Newspaper. What was your role in Al Mustaqbal TV?
16 A. I am up to this day responsible for news and political programmes
17 in Future TV; however, I used in practical terms to supervise the content
18 of the news and political programmes.
19 Q. And I understand that there was an incident in June of 2003 in
20 the offices of Future TV. In very brief terms - very brief terms - can
21 you describe what that incident was?
22 A. If I remember well, in the night of the 5th to the 6th of June,
23 2003, two missiles or rockets were launched from a car that was parked
24 facing the news building of Future TV. So the rockets were launched at
25 night, targeting the news building of Future TV. At that time very few
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 25 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 people were in the building. The aim was to cause great damages --
2 damage to the building.
3 Q. And was damage, in fact, caused to the building?
4 A. Yes, a fire took place and led to additional damage.
5 Q. And what was the Prime Minister's reaction, do you know, to the
6 attack upon the building occupied by Future TV?
7 A. Very early on the following day, Prime Minister Rafik Hariri
8 asked me to gather all the journalists from the news section or
9 department in that building. He came in person to the building and he
10 went to the floor of the news department. He came inside my office. He
11 asked me to gather all the journalists in the editorial room and we went
12 together to the editorial room and he addressed them in very short
13 sentences. He told them, "This attack is not targeting you. It is an
14 attack targeting me in person. I got the message. Please go back to
15 work."
16 Later on during that day, in his own residence, Prime Minister
17 Rafik Hariri told me that: "This was an attack on my backyard." The
18 reason was that the building of the news department in Raouche was very
19 close to his residence in Quraitem.
20 Q. And did you have any further conversation with the Prime Minister
21 about his perception that this was an attack launched personally against
22 him as opposed to the employees of Al Mustaqbal TV?
23 A. Yes. On many occasions. Prime Minister Hariri knew very well
24 and very clearly that this attack was perpetrated by the Syrian regime
25 and its actors in Lebanon.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 26 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. Now moving forward, still in 2003, were you aware of a meeting
2 that occurred between Prime Minister Hariri and President Bashar Al-Assad
3 in Damascus in late December?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you know that the Prime Minister was going to Damascus before
6 the meeting occurred?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And in your conversations with the Prime Minister prior to the
9 meeting, what was your understanding of his perception of what the
10 meeting was going to be about?
11 A. I do not remember that I had put to him clear and direct
12 questions, what are you going to say or what will you hear, et cetera.
13 However, I remember that he addressed this meeting as a kind of a routine
14 meeting because they used to hold regular meetings when need be.
15 Q. And when was it that you next saw the Prime Minister following
16 his return from the meeting with President Bashar Al-Assad?
17 A. On the same day in the afternoon, late afternoon, in his own
18 residence, namely, his personal suite on the seventh floor in
19 Quraitem Palace.
20 Q. And when you saw the Prime Minister on that day, can you describe
21 his demeanour? How did he appear to you?
22 A. He looked like a broken man, a man whose heart was broken. He
23 was very sad. And when I arrived I asked him, "It seems or it looks like
24 the meeting was not a positive one." He replied, "It was a catastrophe."
25 Q. And what did he tell you about what had happened during the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 27 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 course of his meeting?
2 A. He told me, "It was not a meeting. It was a trial. I was
3 treated as if I was accused and as if there was an indictment sheet
4 addressing me. The meeting was attended by the Syrian president,
5 Bashar Assad, and three security officers, Rustom Ghazaleh, Ghazi Kanaan,
6 and Mohammed Khallouf. They accused me of very serious accusations and
7 charges," many of which belonged to or were pertaining to Al Mustaqbal
8 Newspaper, An-Nahar Newspaper, and his alleged campaign against President
9 Emile Lahoud. He also told me that: "I felt like leaving the office
10 where the meeting was held more than once; however, I don't -- I still do
11 not know how did I stay during the whole meeting. I considered seriously
12 standing up and telling the Syrian president, 'Mr. President, you are
13 addressing the Prime Minister of Lebanon. You cannot address the Prime
14 Minister of Lebanon in this way' and to leave the room. However, I
15 decided to stay until the end of the meeting, despite all."
16 Q. Did he describe the dynamic to you among the participants of the
17 meeting, and in particular Rustom Ghazaleh, Mohammed Khallouf, and
18 Ghazi Kanaan?
19 A. I do not remember that he discussed the details, namely, the
20 roles of each of them. However, he told me that they were addressing him
21 in unacceptable terms. "They accused me of being a traitor, of
22 conspiring against them. And President Bashar Assad agreed to what they
23 were saying. He did not even try to ask them to stop accusing me."
24 Q. And what, if anything, was the Prime Minister obliged to do as a
25 result of the meeting that he'd had in Damascus?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 28 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. In summary, three things. First of all, he asked me to stop any
2 rhetoric, negative rhetoric, in the TV channel or the newspaper against
3 the Syrian regime and against Emile Lahoud. During that meeting he was
4 accused of being the architect of the campaign launched by An-Nahar
5 Newspaper against the Syrian presence in Lebanon. He was also accused of
6 being the real owner of An-Nahar TV. In order to prove that he had
7 nothing to do with this campaign, he was asked to get rid of all his
8 shares in An-Nahar Newspaper. He used to own some shares in An-Nahar
9 Newspaper and he was told to get rid of all these shares. However,
10 implicitly they told him: If you will continue to keep your shares in
11 An-Nahar Newspaper, it means that you are funding An-Nahar Newspaper and
12 contributing to these campaigns.
13 Second, he was also asked to put an end to any confrontation or
14 any conflict that might arise with President Emile Lahoud.
15 Q. Now, did the Prime Minister give you any instructions as his
16 shadow media adviser and as the editor of Al Mustaqbal Newspaper and
17 having a senior position in Al Mustaqbal TV, did he give you any
18 instructions as a result of what had occurred in the meeting in Damascus?
19 A. Yes, he asked me to be very careful and to prevent any broadcast
20 or publication in the TV or in the newspaper, namely, any broadcast,
21 comments, programmes that are against the Syrian regime or President
22 Emile Lahoud.
23 JUDGE AKOUM: Mr. Cameron.
24 [Interpretation] In your previous answer you said that you will
25 mention three things; however, you mentioned only two. First of all, to
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 29 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 stop any criticism of the Syrian regime or President Lahoud; and second,
2 you said that also putting an end to any confrontation with President
3 Emile Lahoud. You did not mention the third thing.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The third thing was to get rid of
5 his shares in An-Nahar Newspaper.
6 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. CAMERON:
8 Q. Now, did the Prime Minister discuss with you a proscription
9 against or regarding his future conduct in his public statements
10 regarding Syria going forward, a code of conduct, as it were?
11 A. He did not tell me about it in these terms; however, it was
12 obvious that when he was asking his media group to be careful this
13 instruction would also be applied on his own behaviour.
14 Q. And do you know whether the Prime Minister was ever accused of
15 running afoul of that general prohibition against rhetoric related to
16 Syria or his position in respect of President Lahoud?
17 A. The first time this was mentioned in clear terms was when we
18 started to hear talks about an intent to extend the term of President
19 Lahoud. In parallel, accusations were levelled against Prime Minister
20 Rafik Hariri because he was opposed to the extension of President
21 Lahoud's term and this was true.
22 Q. And how was it communicated to him that this was contrary to what
23 had been discussed or mandated in December of 2003?
24 A. If I remember well, through the media. We used to read some
25 analysis, articles in some newspaper describing that as a breach of what
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 30 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 was called later on the Damascus Protocol. I do not remember in precise
2 terms that this was said by any person who had a political or a security
3 role, but it might have happened.
4 Q. Did the Prime Minister as a result of the December meeting
5 provide you with any information as to his understanding of the pecking
6 order of Rustom Ghazaleh, Ghazi Kanaan, and Mohammed Khallouf by that
7 stage?
8 A. About how I understood what they said? No. He said that they
9 levelled accusations against him and that President Assad had asked them
10 to do so.
11 Q. My question relates to: Do you know whether the Prime Minister
12 had an understanding as a result of that meeting as to whether all three
13 were equal or was one of those three gentlemen pre-eminent?
14 A. From what I heard from him regarding this particular meeting, I
15 don't remember that he said anything in this context. However, later on,
16 during that period and the following period, it was clear that the person
17 who was in charge of the situation in Lebanon was Rustom Ghazaleh.
18 Q. And how did you come to understand that? When you say it was
19 clear that that was the case, what made it clear to you?
20 A. It was clear that Ghazi Kanaan was summoned to go back to Syria.
21 Rustom Ghazaleh was appointed as head of the Syrian intelligence in
22 Lebanon, and also Mohammed Khallouf was appointed to replace
23 Rustom Ghazaleh in Beirut. And after that, we stopped hearing anything
24 about Ghazi Kanaan when it came to Syria's role in Lebanon. It was clear
25 that all decisions and all orders of the Syrian tutelage were issued and
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 31 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 implemented by Rustom Ghazaleh.
2 Q. Now, you mentioned that you understood the Prime Minister's
3 position in the middle of 2004 to be opposed to the extension of
4 President Lahoud. And are you aware of any discussion that occurred
5 between any of the Syrian officials and the Prime Minister about that
6 position prior to, say, late August 2004?
7 A. If I remember well, there used to be constant contacts with the
8 Syrian vice-president, Abdel-Halim Khaddam and it was obvious that Prime
9 Minister Hariri was opposed to the extension of the term of President
10 Emile Lahoud. Also, Prime Minister Rafik Hariri conveyed to me a
11 position of Rustom Ghazaleh, whereby he told Mr. Hariri, "Hajj, stop
12 dealing with this. This is a decision issued by President Bashar Assad."
13 It was obvious to everyone who dealt in the field of politics and media
14 that President -- Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was doing his utmost to
15 prevent the extension of the term of President Emile Lahoud. In
16 parallel, there was a kind of unclear Syrian position that was spread in
17 the media in Lebanon.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, can we pause with Mr. Hammoud
19 here.
20 We're going to give you a break now. I just have to deal with
21 some other matter, so your break will start before ours, Mr. Hammoud.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Larochelle, I just wish to return to the
24 issue of the questions you were posing for certification. It appears to
25 me reading them that questions 1 and 2 -- I'll just read them on to the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 32
1 record. It appears to me that questions 1 and 2 are identical except for
2 one word in each, they're duplicative, and I don't think would be
3 certifying two identical questions. The questions you've posed are:
4 "1. Did the Trial Chamber in concluding that the UNIIIC, that's
5 the United Nations International Independent Investigating Commission,
6 could legally request and obtain the communication of all subscribers'
7 Call Data Records over several years from the Lebanese telecommunications
8 companies Alfa and MTC without the prior judicial authorization of an
9 independent judge or independent authority, whether Lebanese or
10 international.
11 "2. Did the Trial Chamber err in concluding that the Prosecutor
12 of the Special Tribunal for Lebanon could legally request and obtain the
13 communication of all subscribers' Call Data Records over several years
14 from the Lebanese telecommunications companies Alfa and MTC without the
15 prior judicial authorization of an independent judge or independent
16 authority, whether Lebanese or international.
17 "3. Did the Trial Chamber err in concluding that the absence of
18 judicial control does not violate any international human rights standard
19 on the right to privacy justifying the exclusion of the Call Data Records
20 under Rule 162."
21 Now, I'm just posing this back to you. It appears to me, just as
22 a matter of drafting, if you frame your question -- if you amalgamated
23 the first two into one along the lines of:
24 "Did the Trial Chamber err in concluding that the United Nations
25 International Independent Investigating Commission commissioner and the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 33
1 Prosecutor of the Special Tribunal for Lebanon could legally request and
2 obtain Call Data Records from the Lebanese telecommunications companies
3 Alfa and MTC without either judicial authorization" -- sorry, "without
4 either Lebanese or international judicial authorization?"
5 That would be combining the two questions into one, leaving the
6 third question as it is and taking out some of the words which may not be
7 necessary. So I'm just putting this on the record before we break as to
8 another way of approaching the two questions. We would, I think, more
9 inclined to look at the first two questions as one, it doesn't change the
10 substance of what you're asking for, and put that back to the Prosecutor
11 to come back to at a later point.
12 Mr. Larochelle, do you have anything to say on that particular
13 point at this moment?
14 MR. LAROCHELLE: I personally do not have anything to say. I
15 will consult with Maître Courcelle-Labrousse during the break. I suspect
16 he will be happy himself with the way the questions are drafted. But if
17 there's any issues, I may revert to it after the break.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I take it you appreciate when I say we would
19 approach it by putting those two questions together, we're not saying at
20 this point those are the two questions we would certify because we have
21 to hear from the Prosecutor and the Chamber has to deliberate on the
22 content. So it isn't really a counter-proposal, it's just -- all I'm
23 saying -- thinking is in terms of the current drafting.
24 Okay. We'll adjourn for a short break.
25 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 34 Procedural Matters
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 --- On resuming at 12.02 p.m.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Larochelle.
4 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, I
5 apologize for interrupting the witness deposition, but I would like to
6 respond briefly on the issue that was mentioned before the break. I
7 would like to add, for your reflections, that it is important for us to
8 relate these questions to the paragraph dated May 6, 2015, paragraphs 87
9 and 108 to 110, and generally speaking the paragraphs between paragraph
10 87 and 108 where the Chamber described its reasoning which brought it to
11 the conclusion whereby our response to that conclusion is no.
12 So let me repeat, paragraph 87 through to 110, emphasizing in
13 particular paragraph 87 and paragraphs 108 to 110.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: There were two questions, Mr. Larochelle,
15 which I reformulated before. Are you saying it's paragraphs 87 through
16 to 110 for both questions? Or can you break it down?
17 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you.
19 Mr. Cameron.
20 JUDGE AKOUM: Just a clarification from Mr. Larochelle.
21 Mr. Larochelle, with respect to the two questions, I found out
22 that you are limiting it to just Alfa and MTC companies. If it's done on
23 purpose, you mean that you want to exclude the land-lines that are
24 provided by Ogero or what?
25 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] Our response to the Prosecutor's
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 35 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 motion was that the information requested came from Alfa and MTC. So if
2 there is a problem with the call records from other telephone lines, we
3 may have to bring up the same arguments. But for this particular issue,
4 what we're interested in is the data from Alfa and MTC. If I remember
5 correctly - and the Prosecutor will correct me if I'm mistaken - the
6 Prosecutor's motion dealt solely with the Call Data Records from Alfa and
7 MTC. So it would have been academic, if you will, to oppose other call
8 records which were not mentioned directly in the Prosecutor's motion.
9 JUDGE AKOUM: Okay.
10 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] If I may add, Iain Edwards has
11 also supported our motion on the basis of what I've just said and I -- of
12 course perhaps he would like to add something himself.
13 MR. EDWARDS: I'm grateful. Nothing further to add.
14 MR. CAMERON:
15 Q. Mr. Hammoud, just before the break we were dealing with the
16 period of time prior to the end of August 2004 in which it was apparent
17 that the Prime Minister's position was not in favour of the extension of
18 President Lahoud's term. And you had indicated that there had been some
19 communication with Syrian officials, with Vice-President Khaddam and as
20 well with Rustom Ghazaleh, where I think you said that Mr. Ghazaleh or
21 Brigadier-General Ghazaleh said, "Hajj, stop dealing with this. This is
22 a decision issued by President Bashar Al-Assad."
23 Now, did you hear of that conversation from the Prime Minister
24 himself, the conversation with Rustom Ghazaleh?
25 A. I heard it, first of all, by the late Wissam El-Hassan and then I
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 36 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 had the information confirmed by Prime Minister Hariri.
2 Q. And did that confirmation come prior to the next meeting that the
3 Prime Minister had in Damascus at the end of August 2004?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you know from your discussions with the Prime Minister
6 what his reaction was to that statement or position of Brigadier-General
7 Ghazaleh, communicating the position of Bashar Al-Assad?
8 A. It didn't change anything in the position of Prime Minister
9 Hariri, who continued all attempts through all possible means to stop the
10 extension of the term of President Lahoud.
11 Q. And I gather you were aware then of the meeting that occurred on
12 the 26th of August, 2004, between Prime Minister Hariri and President
13 Bashar Al-Assad in Damascus?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you have discussions with the Prime Minister before the
16 meeting about what he expected to occur?
17 A. I remember that Prime Minister Hariri was expecting this meeting
18 to be an important one. I believe he got himself ready to explain and
19 convince President Assad and in the best of scenarios to listen to an
20 agreement of President Assad that there was no necessity to extend the
21 term of President Lahoud.
22 Q. And does your belief in that regard arise from your conversations
23 with the Prime Minister or from other sources?
24 A. With the Prime Minister.
25 Q. And when did you next see the Prime Minister after his return
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 37 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 from Damascus?
2 A. On the same day in his house in Faqra.
3 Q. And I take it you were a frequent visitor to the Faraya area
4 because you're a skier; is that correct?
5 A. That is true, but at the time it was summer and I sometimes went
6 to the area of Faraya in summer.
7 Q. And how did it come to pass that you met with the Prime Minister
8 that day?
9 A. Before going to Damascus he told me that he intended to come back
10 to his Faqra house. I waited for him in Faraya. He called me on the
11 phone and told me, "I have arrived to Faqra." So I went to Faqra to meet
12 him in his house.
13 Q. And what happened when you met him?
14 A. He was completely flabbergast. I saw a man that was completely
15 flabbergast. He was sitting in a place where he never sits usually in
16 his house. It was a rather isolated corner. He was wearing a white
17 "jelabiya" or "abayah," and his expression was that of complete surprise
18 and consternation.
19 Q. And was there anyone else present when you encountered the Prime
20 Minister in that state?
21 A. Yes. I remember that on that day I was with the late Bassel
22 Fuleihan. We were having lunch at Faraya and I remember that we went
23 together to the house of Prime Minister Hariri. And I also remember that
24 when we were coming in, his sister, Mrs. Bahia Hariri was leaving. And I
25 believe that one of the aides of the Prime Minister, Mr. Darwich
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 38 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 El-Rabiaa was present as well.
2 Q. And what did you learn from the Prime Minister about what had
3 happened in Damascus?
4 A. To start with, when I asked Prime Minister Hariri, "How was the
5 meeting?" He says, "Very bad. Emile Lahoud's term will be extended."
6 His answer was: "Emile Lahoud's term will be extended." And when I
7 asked him, "Why?" He answered me that Bashar Al-Assad threatened him.
8 He told him, "You have not understood that I am Emile Lahoud and Emile
9 Lahoud is myself. And you and no one has to have an opinion on that
10 point. My decision is the extension of the term of Emile Lahoud. And if
11 your friend is Jacques Chirac and believes that he can break my will in
12 Lebanon, I will break the country on your head."
13 And I also recall that I tried to open up the discussion on other
14 topics. And I told him, "Your Excellency, how can he break this country
15 on your head?" And I remember very well he said, "I'm going to ask you a
16 question. If the Syrians asked Hezbollah to organize a protest from the
17 suburbs Dahyieh to the centre of Beirut, will they do it?" I answered
18 him, "Of course they will do it." So he said, "If the Syrians put
19 snipers over the building of the sports club on the way, will they shoot
20 people? They will shoot people and this will lead to fires, people will
21 burn Beirut, and this is how they will break the country on my head."
22 Q. Do you recall the reaction of the late Bassel Fuleihan to this
23 news?
24 A. I recall that Bassel Fuleihan was totally surprised, as I was,
25 and very disappointed by what he heard from Prime Minister Hariri, that
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 39 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 is to say, we will extend the term of President Lahoud.
2 Q. Did the Prime Minister convey to you any efforts that he made to
3 attempt to reason with President Assad?
4 A. He told me very clearly, "He gave me no possibility to say
5 anything." And he told him his sentence or Prime Minister Hariri
6 understood by the way he behaved towards him that: "You have no other
7 choice but to accept what I'm telling you. The only thing you can say is
8 'yes.'"
9 Q. And did you have discussions with the Prime Minister as his media
10 adviser still as to how you would be able to cope with this change in
11 position?
12 A. On this day, no, I do not remember. I recall two things. First
13 of all, Prime Minister Hariri was not in a mood to speak, to talk; and I
14 recall that he moved to the living room in which there is a television
15 and he turned the television on and we sat for a while - no one was
16 speaking. And after 10 or 15 minutes, if I recall well, he told us, "The
17 Minister Fares Bouiez is coming to see me. Please leave me. I want to
18 see him." And I told him, "We are leaving your house and going to the
19 house of Deputy Fares Souaid in Faqra. What do you want us to tell him?"
20 He told me without details, "Tell him there is no way we will extend the
21 term of Emile Lahoud." And then we left.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction by the interpreter: We have to
23 extend, not we don't have to extend. We have to extend.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just a clarification. Was there any
25 significance in Mr. Hariri wanting to speak to Fares Bouiez?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 40 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, Minister Fares Bouiez
2 was one of the names mentioned as a candidate for the election if the
3 possibility was given to organize presidential elections in a normal
4 fashion.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You mean for him to be a presidential
6 candidate?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, if there was no extension of
8 the terms.
9 MR. CAMERON:
10 Q. So it's common ground that the Council of Ministers meets, the
11 Parliament meets, the extension, the constitutional amendment are
12 approved, and virtually simultaneously Resolution 1559 is passed or
13 adopted by the United Nations Security Council. And you are aware of all
14 of that?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. CAMERON: I'd like the witness to be shown the document that
17 appears in the Arabic at position 14 and in the English at position 15 of
18 the Prosecution's presentation queue. It's a single-page document. It's
19 a press release dated the 15th of September, 2004, with an apparent
20 publication date in Al Mustaqbal Newspaper on the 16th of September,
21 2004. And the ERN number is D0004679. This was originally entered as
22 part of the package of exhibits in Exhibit 303.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do you wish to give it a separate exhibit
24 number?
25 MR. CAMERON: Yes, please, as we have been doing with these ones.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 41 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 As I understand it, the next exhibit number is 449.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It will be Exhibit P449.
3 MR. CAMERON:
4 Q. Now, this press release was issued from Madrid on the 15th of
5 September, and I want to ask you a series of questions generally about
6 this type of document. First, were you in Madrid with the Prime Minister
7 during this period of time, do you recall?
8 A. I recall that I was in Madrid with the Prime Minister, but my
9 memory fails me about this given trip. Honestly, I do not remember
10 whether I was in Madrid in September.
11 Q. Did you attend the awards ceremony in Barcelona on the 13th of
12 September, 2004, with the Prime Minister?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I'd like to explore with you two or three things. One is:
15 You're the press adviser for the Prime Minister in an -- albeit an
16 unofficial capacity and you're also the editor-in-chief of Al Mustaqbal
17 Newspaper, so I'd like to ask you what the relationship is between how
18 press releases are determined appropriate to issue and then in turn what
19 press releases are considered by you wearing your other hat as the
20 editor-in-chief of Al Mustaqbal Newspaper? So the first issue is: Does
21 the -- did the Prime Minister have a hand in formulating, in the normal
22 course, the content of press releases of this nature?
23 A. There are two types of information, news. Some press releases
24 are published in a routine fashion without presenting the content to the
25 Prime Minister, and this is linked to a given activity which has no
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 42 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 political content and which forces the Prime Minister to express a
2 position more notably when it's a sensitive position. And there are
3 other types of press releases that either contain a declaration in the
4 name of the Prime Minister, we would say in the piece of information:
5 This is the declaration of the Prime Minister on a political position,
6 it's a very sensitive question, or political information that is also
7 sensitive information. And in such a case the Prime Minister is either
8 informed of this piece of information and his approval is requested
9 before the publication.
10 Q. And in the normal course, what percentage of press releases would
11 then be published in Al Mustaqbal Newspaper?
12 A. If it's not a hundred per cent, it's 99 per cent.
13 Q. And this particular press release relates in part to a discussion
14 between the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and Prime Minister Hariri
15 who was conducting a European tour. And then there's a reference to
16 Egyptian television and in particular Lebanese issues and Security
17 Council Resolution 1559. Now, do you know whether this was the kind of
18 issue that you would speak directly with the Prime Minister about prior
19 to the publication in the newspaper?
20 A. Yes. This type of information which has a specific content was
21 to be viewed by myself or one of my colleagues and to be presented to the
22 Prime Minister by myself or a colleague before being distributed.
23 Q. And did you have discussions, and particularly in the area of
24 Resolution 1559, about why certain things were included in press releases
25 like this?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 43 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. No. I don't know what is the reason why this information was in
2 the press release. I was not present for this given press release. But
3 I suppose that Prime Minister Hariri informed my colleagues that were
4 travelling with him from the media bureau that he got a phone call from
5 President Mubarak or he called -- no, no, no, I correct myself. He
6 received a phone call from President Hosni Mubarak and following that a
7 press release is automatically drafted indicating that President Mubarak
8 telephoned Prime Minister Hariri. And if the media office is informed
9 that the Egyptian television published information on that phone call and
10 that the phone call concerned the Resolution 1559 of the Security
11 Council, Prime Minister Hariri would be automatically asked whether it is
12 possible to add a sentence on that, saying that the Egyptian television
13 touched on the topic. And because it is mentioned here, it is considered
14 as truth. And I believe that in such a situation Prime Minister Hariri
15 gave his approval for the sentence and maybe he added: Please add that
16 we spoke of the meeting of the Quartet which is to meet in New York.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What was the significance of Mr. Hariri
18 wanting it publicized that Mr. Mubarak had telephoned him?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In our political and journalistic
20 culture, when a Prime Minister or any political figure, prominent
21 political figure, receives a phone call from head of state, normally such
22 a phone call should be related in the media because it is considered as
23 an event.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What were the state of Egyptian and Syrian
25 relations at that point?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 44 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot comment on the bilateral
2 relations between Syria and Egypt. I cannot remember anything, be it
3 positive or negative, in terms of their bilateral relations back then.
4 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Hammoud, you are saying that
5 99 per cent of the press releases regarding the activities of Mr. Hariri
6 are published in Al Mustaqbal Newspaper. Does this mean that there is a
7 small percentage of press releases regarding the activities of Prime
8 Minister Rafik Hariri that are not published in Al Mustaqbal Newspaper?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant to say is if it's not
10 100 per cent, then it's 99 per cent. I wanted to keep a margin of
11 1 per cent to justify some cases of non-publication of press releases in
12 Al Mustaqbal Newspaper. So if you want my opinion, I can clearly say
13 100 per cent, but I do not want anyone to come one day and say: This is
14 a press release that was not published in Al Mustaqbal Newspaper, but
15 this should be a minor and a marginal exception due to the nature of the
16 press release.
17 MR. CAMERON: The next document that I'd --
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just before you finish with that one.
19 MR. CAMERON: Oh, sorry.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: -- I just have one clarification.
21 Mr. Hammoud, just on my question about Mr. Mubarak, is it the
22 case that it was not so much significant that it was President Mubarak
23 who telephoned Mr. Hariri, but the fact that it was a head of state who
24 telephoned Mr. Hariri? That is, there was a telephone call between a
25 head of state and Mr. Hariri and it didn't matter who it was, it was just
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 45 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 reported?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said earlier, in our political
3 and journalistic culture, we used to receive regularly news about phone
4 calls by any head of state calling Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, and
5 immediately we used to draft relevant press releases. I was trying to
6 explain why would we draft a press release relating that a head of state
7 contacted or called Mr. Hariri.
8 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Did Mr. Hariri convey to you the
9 content of the discussion he had with President Mubarak during that phone
10 call?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not to me in person. I do not
12 remember that.
13 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Do you remember that following
14 this phone call between Mr. Mubarak and Prime Minister Hariri a later
15 meeting was held between President Mubarak and President Assad?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember many meetings between
17 President Mubarak and President Assad, but I cannot confirm the
18 chronology of events, whether it happened before or after, I cannot
19 remember.
20 MR. CAMERON:
21 Q. During a phone call such as the one that we just looked at as
22 reported in Exhibit 449, I take it that many things may have been
23 discussed but there was a specific mention of Resolution 1559 as being
24 the subject. And is it your understanding that that particular issue,
25 the inclusion of the discussion about Resolution 1559, would have been
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 46 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 something that was passed by the Prime Minister both prior to the
2 issuance of the press release and prior to its reporting in Al Mustaqbal
3 Newspaper?
4 A. Yes. From what we read in this press release, the source of
5 information is the Egyptian TV that mentioned that they discussed
6 Resolution 1559. Adding this piece of information to a press release
7 issued by the office of Mr. Hariri is an indication that Prime Minister
8 Rafik Hariri had the opportunity to read the text of the press release
9 before its distribution.
10 Q. And I take it that it would go without saying, if he didn't want
11 it in, it wouldn't be in that particular press release; is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 MR. CAMERON: So the next document that I'd like to turn to is
14 found at position 12 in the Arabic and 13 in the English on the
15 Prosecution's presentation queue. It is another press release of the
16 same provenance admitted as part of Exhibit 303. It's dated the 30th of
17 September, 2004. It has an ERN range of D0004692 to D0004694. Indicates
18 at the outset that it's dated the 30th of September, 2004, and published
19 on October 1st, 2004, in Al Mustaqbal Newspaper.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We will make that Exhibit P450.
21 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.
22 Q. Do you recall being in Paris with the Prime Minister during this
23 period of time, the end of September 2004?
24 A. I remember that I was accompanying the president in most of his
25 meetings with President Jacques Chirac. I used to accompany him in most
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 47 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 of his meetings. However, frankly speaking, I cannot remember this date
2 in particular. I do not remember if I was part of that trip.
3 I want to clarify. I did not used to attend the meetings between
4 Hariri and Chirac, but I used to accompany him whenever he was going to
5 hold such a meeting.
6 Q. All right. There are two parts to this press release that I'd
7 like to draw your attention to. The first is in the first paragraph.
8 The general heading is:
9 "Prime Minister: This is a difficult stage and I hope that we
10 will continue with dialogue, Chirac reiterates to Hariri his adherence to
11 the implementation of SC Resolution 1559 and his willingness to
12 co-operate with the government for the interests of Lebanon?"
13 First paragraph reads:
14 "Prime Minister Rafik Hariri exited from a private meeting which
15 lasted an hour and ten minutes with the French President Jacques Chirac.
16 He stated that they discussed 'all the topics, and that President Chirac
17 is a friend of Lebanon and the region,' adding: 'I think and hope that
18 we will continue our discussions and dialogue; I'll say no more.'"
19 So in that passage Prime Minister Hariri doesn't, I think in
20 fairness, really say much of anything, does he, other than the fact that
21 the meeting occurred. But in his -- in the press release authorized by
22 his office, in the third paragraph we have the following:
23 "French presidential spokesman Jerome Bonavon said that
24 'President Jacques Chirac reiterated to PM Hariri France's support for
25 the independence, sovereignty, and territorial integrity of Lebanon and
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 48 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 France's will for the implementation of Security Resolution 1559.' He
2 also assured that 'France is always to the side of Lebanon and ready to
3 co-operate with the Lebanese government for the interest of Lebanon.'"
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, just the preposition, France is
5 always "to the side" or "on the side" of Lebanon. Can one of the
6 interpreters tell us what it says in the Lebanese text, whether it is
7 "to" or "on," because there could be a difference.
8 THE INTERPRETER: It says in the Arabic text: France will always
9 be standing next to Lebanon or by Lebanon's side.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: In other ways, beside Lebanon.
11 Thank you, Mr. Cameron.
12 MR. CAMERON:
13 Q. Now, I'm going to come back to this document in a second, but I
14 want to note that it was published on the 1st of October, 2004, which
15 would happen in the normal course, I take it, the day after the issuance
16 of the publication.
17 MR. CAMERON: But if I could also take the witness to another
18 document which is found at positions 19 in the Arabic and 18 in the
19 English and it's a report entitled: "Report of the Secretary-General
20 pursuant to Security Council Resolution 1559 (2004)." It has an ERN
21 range of 60211763 to 60211771. And this was deemed admissible pursuant
22 to the Trial Chamber's decision of the 30th of December, 2014, F1802.
23 And it appeared originally in the Prosecution's 154 motion of the 21st of
24 October, 2014, F1711, in annex 1.2 and row 2.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. We'll admit the Security Council --
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 49 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 sorry, the report of the Secretary-General pursuant to Security Council
2 Resolution 1559 of 2004 as Exhibit P451.
3 MR. CAMERON:
4 Q. Now, I take it you were aware at the time that the Security
5 Council or that the Secretary-General had issued a report regarding
6 Resolution 1559 as the editor of your major newspaper?
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And just -- and the date of the document is
8 the 1st of October, 2004, and it has the UN document number S/2004/777.
9 Thank you, Mr. Hammoud.
10 MR. CAMERON:
11 Q. I'd like to take you briefly to some passages in this report and
12 then return to the issue in the previous document. So this report
13 emerges on the same day that you publish the previous document, the press
14 release regarding the Prime Minister's meeting with Jacques Chirac. The
15 first --
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, the last question you answered,
17 there was no audible response from Mr. Hammoud but he nodded. I just
18 record that. Thank you.
19 Please continue. I meant the last question you asked, not
20 answered.
21 MR. CAMERON:
22 Q. You're nodding "yes" in accordance with the Trial Judge's --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'll try and remember to get you to ...
25 The first page I'd like to take you to is ERN 60211763, that's
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 50 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 the first page of the actual document. In the introduction paragraph 1,
2 it says:
3 "The present report is submitted pursuant to Resolution 1559
4 (2004) adopted on the 2nd of September, 2004, by the Security Council.
5 In paragraph 7 of that resolution, the Council requested that I report
6 within 30 days on the implementation by the parties of that resolution."
7 Now, I take it that Resolution 1559 was a widely discussed topic
8 in September in Lebanon; is that fair to say?
9 A. Yes. [In English] The most widely discussed topic.
10 Q. And do you recall whether the issuance of this follow-up report
11 which is presaged in the resolution itself was something that was widely
12 anticipated in Lebanon?
13 A. [Interpretation] Yes, it was expected. I don't know whether it
14 was expected, presaged by that date, but -- however, people who were
15 following up the matter, they knew very well that the Secretary-General
16 had a -- had to report back within 30 days on the implementation. The
17 decision was -- the resolution was adopted on the 2nd of September, 2004,
18 which means one month later he had to draft his report.
19 MR. CAMERON: And if I could take the witness to the fourth page
20 of the document which is at ERN 60211766 under the heading: "A. Foreign
21 forces deployed in Lebanon."
22 Q. At paragraph 12 the Secretary-General's report says the
23 following:
24 "Security Council Resolution 1559 (2004) calls for the withdrawal
25 of all remaining foreign forces from Lebanon. Apart from the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 51 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), to the best of our
2 ability to ascertain, the only significant foreign forces deployed in
3 Lebanon, as of 30 September 2004, are Syrian."
4 Was that your understanding as well?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And there is a paragraph 13 which describes some of the history
7 relating to the presence of Syrian forces in Lebanon, and in 14 the
8 Secretary-General says the following:
9 "In addition to the uniformed armed forces, the Syrian Arab
10 Republic has deployed in Lebanon, the Syrian Government has informed the
11 United Nations that there is also a substantial presence of non-uniformed
12 military intelligence officials that, it says, are usual components of
13 military units. These officials, together with the uniformed forces,
14 constitute the full Syrian troop strength."
15 And on to paragraph 15:
16 "The Syrian military and intelligence apparatus in Lebanon has
17 not been withdrawn as of 30th of September, 2004. However, according to
18 announcements by the Lebanese and Syrian governments, the Syrian Arab
19 Republic has in recent weeks redeployed approximately 3.000 of its forces
20 formerly deployed south of Beirut. It has not been made clear to the
21 United Nations whether these redeployments are confined to regular troops
22 or include non-uniformed military intelligence, and whether they have all
23 returned to the Syrian Arab Republic. According to the parties, this is
24 the fifth such redeployment since the signing of the Taif Agreement."
25 Paragraph 16:
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 52 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 "The Syrian Government has indicated to me that a total of about
2 14.000 Syrian troops remain in Lebanon. It says that a majority of these
3 forces are now based near the Syrian border and that they are not
4 deployed deep inside Lebanon. The Lebanese and Syrian Governments have
5 told me that the timing of further withdrawals would be determined by the
6 security situation in Lebanon and the region and through the joint
7 military committee established pursuant to the Taif Agreement."
8 Now, just stopping there, as a result of your discussions with
9 the Prime Minister, do you know what his position was in respect of --
10 during this period of time, did you know what his position was in respect
11 of the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon?
12 A. He was confident that the Syrian forces would withdraw from
13 Lebanon, and in one occasion he bet on that with me. He was joking of
14 course. He said to me, "Do you bet that within one year from now all the
15 Syrian forces would be out of Lebanon?"
16 Q. And when did you have that wager?
17 A. I'm trying to remember. If I remember well, maybe this was
18 towards the end of the summer of 2004 or early fall 2004. We were
19 together in his car going to Syria, and if I remember well we were going
20 to pay a visit to the Syrian vice-president, Mr. Abdel-Halim Khaddam in
21 Bloudan. It was one of the rarest occasions whereby I was the only one
22 with him in the car. He was driving the car and I was sitting next to
23 him and we were part of a larger convoy. We reached the Syrian
24 check-point of the Syrian army -- of the Syrian army in Chtoura on the
25 highway leading to Syria. Back then a Syrian officer dressed in military
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 53 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 uniform had stopped the traffic in order to allow the convoy of
2 Mr. Hariri to continue his route without any obstacle. And the car of
3 Mr. Rafik Hariri had normal glasses, not the tinted glasses, as we say in
4 Lebanon. So when the Syrian officer saw him, he greeted him; and after
5 we passed the check-point, apparently I was either smiling or expressing
6 my astonishment and Prime Minister Hariri asked me, "Why are you
7 smiling?" I said, "I'm smiling at this occurrence. I'm seeing the Prime
8 Minister of Lebanon receiving indications on how to drive and in which
9 direction on Lebanese territories. And he is greeted by the Syrian
10 official." His reply was very prompt and he told me, "In a year from now
11 you will not see them anymore in Lebanon." I said, "How come?" He said,
12 "I am telling you, in a year from now I bet you, you will not see any
13 Syrian officer in Lebanon. Please write it down. Please remind me in a
14 year from now that we had this wager on this topic."
15 Q. Now, the other aspect to Resolution 1559 related to the disarming
16 of Lebanese and non-Lebanese militia. And at paragraph 18 at ERN page
17 60211767, the Secretary-General writes the following:
18 "Security Council Resolution 1559 ... calls for the disbanding
19 and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias. Since the end
20 of the civil war, the Government of Lebanon has made great strides in
21 significantly reducing the number of militias present in Lebanon.
22 Nevertheless, as of the 30th of September, 2004, several armed elements
23 remain in the South. The Government of Lebanon has told me it intends
24 that all irregular armed groups should ultimately be disarmed and
25 disbanded.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 54 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 "The most significant remaining armed group is Hezbollah. The
2 Government of Lebanon objects to the characterization of Hezbollah as a
3 Lebanese militia, and refers to it as a 'national resistance group' that
4 has as its goal the defence of Lebanon from Israel and the removal of
5 Israeli forces from Lebanese soil, namely, the Shebaa farms. Lebanon
6 maintains that the Shebaa farms are Lebanese territory, not Syrian."
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's message: We kindly ask the
8 speaker to slow down when quoting from the report. Thank you very much.
9 MR. CAMERON:
10 Q. Finally, at the conclusion of the report which appears at page
11 60211770 at page -- paragraph 35 under the heading: "Observations," the
12 following appears:
13 "Lebanese public opinion appears to be divided over such issues
14 as the Syrian military presence in Lebanon, the constitutional situation
15 as it relates to presidential elections, and the continued existence of
16 armed groups not under the direct control of the Government. However,
17 many are of the view that full implementation of Resolution 1559 ...
18 would be in the interests not just of Lebanon, but of the Syrian Arab
19 Republic, too, and of the region and wider international community. It
20 is time, 14 years after the end of hostilities and four years after the
21 Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, for all parties concerned to set aside
22 the remaining vestiges of the past. The withdrawal of foreign forces and
23 the disbandment and disarmament of militias would, with finality, end
24 that sad chapter of Lebanese history."
25 Now, having regard to statements such as that within the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 55 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Secretary-General's report on Resolution 1559 and having regard to some
2 of the instances that we've looked at wherein press releases have
3 mentioned Resolution 1559 with the intention that they be published in
4 Al Mustaqbal Newspaper, my question is this: Did the Prime Minister take
5 a public position as to whether or not he was for or against
6 Resolution 1559 in either his press releases or the newspaper that he
7 owned?
8 A. If I recall well, Prime Minister Hariri did not take an official
9 position, neither for nor against Resolution 1559. Usually there were
10 hidden signs of his approval of Resolution 1559. It either came in a
11 sentence that would be repeated on a regular basis, full respect of the
12 international decision of the United Nations, et cetera, and it was meant
13 that he agreed with the Resolution 1559 which was the last and the most
14 important one issued by the United Nations; or by non-negative coverage
15 not opposed to Resolution 1559 in the media that belonged to him, that
16 were close to him, that were allied to him, and also in the policy of
17 Prime Minister Hariri.
18 Q. Were you aware of press coverage during September of 2004 and
19 onwards that the Prime Minister had had a hand in the drafting of
20 Resolution 1559?
21 A. Yes, this is an accusation that was repeated by those who could
22 be called the allies of Syria in Lebanon, and this was repeated in many
23 ways.
24 Q. And did you ever discuss with the Prime Minister why it was that
25 he did not come out in a public way and say that he was opposed to
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 56 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Resolution 1559 or that he fully supported the resolution?
2 A. In my discussions and exchanges on other topics, things were
3 clear to me. Prime Minister Hariri was happy of the issuance of
4 Resolution 1559 and he was not opposing such a resolution. Thus, it was
5 very difficult to try and imagine Prime Minister Hariri adopting open
6 positions and saying he was against Resolution 1559.
7 Now, for the second part, why did it not openly declare his
8 support for the Resolution 1559? What I understood and what I heard from
9 him showed me that Resolution 1559 was in two parts for him. One part
10 was the withdrawal of the Syrian forces from Lebanon and this part, as I
11 told you, was something Prime Minister Hariri was waiting for dearly, he
12 was waiting for the minute of their withdrawal. And another part of the
13 resolution was to dissolve Hezbollah who was an armed militia and had to
14 disband in the interest of the Lebanese state. Well, for the second
15 part, Prime Minister Hariri was expecting to reach this point through
16 dialogue, convincing people that it was common interest, he didn't want
17 to reach this point by opposing people or by threatening the stability of
18 Lebanon. This is why he would not support openly and officially the
19 Resolution 1559.
20 JUDGE AKOUM: Mr. Cameron.
21 [Interpretation] You said, Mr. Hani, that Prime Minister Hariri
22 in autumn of 2004 waged with you that the Syrians would necessarily leave
23 Lebanon within a year. What did Prime Minister Hariri rely on at the
24 time to say such a thing?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Honestly, I did not ask him on the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 57 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 given day, but things were clear. The days that followed, the
2 discussions we had proved that he thought that Resolution 1559 would
3 apply for that part of the withdrawal.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We have different interpretations. A few
5 moments ago we heard "fall" this time we heard "autumn."
6 MR. CAMERON:
7 Q. I asked you a moment ago about whether there had been public
8 accusations about the Prime Minister being an architect or a draftsman of
9 Resolution 1559. And I'm going to ask you a similar question but on a
10 slightly different issue. Were there allegations that even if he were
11 not involved, he had the capacity to prevent it and didn't?
12 A. Yes. This is what I understood and it was my deep belief and
13 that of Prime Minister Hariri in relation -- that he was standing behind
14 Resolution 1559. And the Syrian regime and their allies, those that knew
15 the details of international politics at the time, considered that this
16 resolution could not have been drafted by one man only. It expressed a
17 strategic change in the international politics in the Middle East. And
18 more specifically, the international mandate given to Syria to control
19 Lebanon was withdrawn through this resolution. And the Syrian regime
20 accused Prime Minister Hariri, they said he could have stopped this
21 resolution or stopped its drafting because of his privileged relation
22 with President Chirac. President Chirac and George Bush were 50/50
23 partners in the drafting of this Resolution 1559 according to the
24 Syrians. And they thought he had an exceptional capacity to communicate
25 and to establish a dialogue with the heads of states and figures that
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 58 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 were behind the international politics, amongst whom George Bush, the
2 American president; the Secretary-General of the UN, Kofi Annan. And
3 they thought if Prime Minister Hariri wanted to stop this resolution he
4 would stop the issuance, and since he didn't do it, it meant that he
5 wanted it. This is the accusation that was directed to Prime Minister
6 Hariri.
7 Q. And how were those accusations manifested? Were they in
8 speeches? In newspaper articles? How did you learn of such accusations?
9 A. Yes, there were open and official positions by Syrian allies
10 accusing Prime Minister Hariri directly of his responsibility with
11 Resolution 1559. There were press releases, articles, information in
12 media or there were journalists who were well-known to express the Syrian
13 position and they would make him responsible for Resolution 1559, yes.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Let's give Mr. Hammoud a lunch break.
15 So you can go to lunch. We will metaphorically join you in a few
16 moments but not there physically with you. So thank you, Mr. Hammoud.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, we've got the question for
19 certification. Are you in a position to respond to it now or -- this was
20 the reformulated one which was putting two into one and taking out excess
21 words.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 MR. CAMERON: Yes. I'd be grateful if I could address you after
24 lunch on the issue.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We hope it doesn't spoil your lunch,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 59
1 Mr. Cameron.
2 Court is adjourned.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.11 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, what news do you have for us?
6 MR. CAMERON: I'm grateful for the time permitted me to look at
7 the questions again as reformulated by you. The Prosecution does not
8 object to the questions as framed, that is, the collapsing of the first
9 two questions into one question and the third question becoming the
10 second question. The certification, as I understand it, could only be
11 sought by the Oneissi Defence and joined by the Badreddine Defence and is
12 limited to those two Defence teams.
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Larochelle and Mr. Edwards, do we have
14 an oral motion before the Chamber to certify for interlocutory appeal the
15 questions as I reformulated them earlier today?
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'm not going to deal with it on the spot.
18 I just want to know if we have a formal oral motion before the Chamber.
19 MR. LAROCHELLE: Yes, you do, Your Honour. So you have a formal
20 motion to certify the decision of 6 May 2015 and the questions we are
21 asking you to certify are those that were read by Your Honours earlier
22 on, the two questions as reformulated by the Bench.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Edwards, are you joining
24 Mr. Larochelle's application?
25 MR. EDWARDS: Your Honour, we are.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 60 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron.
2 Welcome back, Mr. Hammoud.
3 MR. CAMERON:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hammoud. Just before the lunch break we had
5 been dealing with the issue of the Prime Minister's position in respect
6 of Resolution 1559, and during this same period of time in September
7 there came what was known later as the Bristol Gathering with which I
8 take it you are familiar. Did you have discussions with the Prime
9 Minister after the extension of President Lahoud's term about his
10 political future and how he would conduct himself in the coming months in
11 the face of what had happened on September 2nd and 3rd?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you know what the Prime Minister's position was in respect
14 of the Bristol Gathering, and in particular the first Bristol Gathering
15 in September, September 22nd?
16 A. Yes. It was clear after the extension of the term, the forced
17 extension of the term of President Emile Lahoud, the decision of Prime
18 Minister Hariri was to join or create an alliance with the opposition,
19 the Christian opposition known as Qornet-Chehwan at the time and with the
20 leader Walid Jumblatt for the coming elections of the year 2005, in order
21 to win those elections and reorganize the regime in Lebanon on the basis
22 of the results of the coming election. The result of those dynamics were
23 the birth of what was known as the Bristol Gathering that brought
24 together the three different parties I just mentioned.
25 Q. And by the time of the first Bristol meeting on the 22nd of
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 61 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 September, the Prime Minister was still in office. He later, as you
2 know, resigns on the 20th of October. Did you have discussions with the
3 Prime Minister as to why it was that he chose the 20th of October to
4 actually resign?
5 A. I could say that by the 20th of October it seemed clear to Prime
6 Minister Hariri that he would not be able to create a government that he
7 wanted to set up. Prime Minister Hariri, in the period we are talking
8 about, was entrusted with constituting a government. He was the Prime
9 Minister of a government entrusted with managing daily work, he was like
10 a caretaker after the extension of the term of President Lahoud. And by
11 the 20th of October, many events had taken place, the most important one
12 was the attempt to kill the minister Marwan Hamade, and other events that
13 made Prime Minister Hariri understand that he would not be able to
14 constitute the government he wants. That is why he decided to forfeit
15 that and not form a government.
16 Q. Now prior to September 2004, was it your understanding that the
17 Prime Minister had at any point been able to form the government that he
18 wanted to form?
19 A. Prime Minister Hariri never formed the government he dreamed of.
20 There were several levels of intervention and pressure to form his
21 government. Between the moment President Bashar Al-Assad asked him to
22 extend the term of President Lahoud and the extension itself and in the
23 days that followed this extension, different direct and indirect messages
24 would arrive him, indicating that after the extension of the term of
25 Emile Lahoud, after also his participation to this extension of the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 62 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 president, he would be free to form the government. But what happened
2 was the opposite.
3 Q. And when you say that the messages were direct and indirect, do
4 you know from the Prime Minister how at least some of those messages were
5 communicated to him?
6 A. I do not recall specific messages, but the climate around people
7 who were close to the Syrians or could pass on messages from the Syrians
8 were going in this direction. And most certainly Prime Minister Hariri
9 had received a direct message from Rustom Ghazaleh going in this
10 direction and the sentence was: You will only be happy -- and at my own
11 level I felt this climate, the colleagues, journalists who would meet
12 with politicians that could be described as close to the Syrian or close
13 to President Emile Lahoud would pass on this sense of things to me.
14 Q. When you said that one of the direct mechanisms was through
15 Rustom Ghazaleh, I'm not sure I understood what you meant. What did
16 Rustom Ghazaleh convey and to whom? Do you remember?
17 A. I recall a specific message which I was informed of by Prime
18 Minister Hariri and Rustom Ghazaleh told Prime Minister Hariri in one of
19 their meetings, it was just either before the extension or just after it:
20 "You will create a government -- you will form a government and you'll be
21 happy of that."
22 Q. And based upon your conversations with the Prime Minister after
23 that period, were you privy to his efforts to actually form a government
24 that he would be content with?
25 A. Yes. I was studying proposals of government to try and take into
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 63 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 account the political balance in the country, but qualitatively speaking,
2 those ministers could not be described as real bearers and implementers
3 of the Syrian will in Lebanon.
4 Q. Well, if the Prime Minister was able to choose his own ministers,
5 that would provide him with the government he would want. Am I correct
6 about that? So did something prevent him from choosing the ministers
7 that he wanted; and if so, what was that?
8 A. Things reached a certain point. Rustom Ghazaleh told him, in the
9 phase that preceded his declaration that it was impossible for him to
10 form the government, he was told by Rustom Ghazaleh, "You can have three
11 ministers in your government, including yours." Which means: You are
12 forming the government, you choose yourself and two other ministers, and
13 the other ministers will be chosen by us.
14 Q. I know it's a simple question, but when Rustom Ghazaleh told the
15 Prime Minister that, whom did you understand the "us" to be? The other
16 ministers would be chosen by "us," by whom?
17 A. "Us" means the Syrians and the Syrian regime and their henchmen
18 in Lebanon, including President Lahoud.
19 Q. And was that conversation related to you directly by the Prime
20 Minister?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And at what period of time did the Prime Minister's hope begin to
23 wane that he would be able to organize a government that he could work
24 with?
25 A. If I recall well, just after the attempt of assassination of
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 64 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Minister Marwan Hamade on the 1st of October, 2004.
2 Q. And did you have discussions with the Prime Minister about when
3 and how he would give effect to his resignation?
4 A. When the attempted assassination against Marwan Hamade happened,
5 we were in Paris. Prime Minister Hariri was in Paris and I was in the
6 delegation accompanying him. And I recall that the day or the second day
7 after the attempt assassination, the Prime Minister started to suggest
8 the idea that he would apologize and not form the government. And I was
9 informed of his final decision the day he presented this refusal to form
10 a government on the 20th of October, and he invited me to the palace in
11 Quraitem and he made me read the draft declaration of apology and he
12 asked me whether I had comments or amendments, things to add, as he
13 usually did.
14 MR. CAMERON: If I could ask the witness to be shown the document
15 that now appears at 65 -- position 65 in the Arabic and 66 in the English
16 of the Prosecution's presentation queue. It's a document entitled:
17 "Press release." It was admitted as part of the general Exhibit 303.
18 The date of the document is the 20th of October, 2004. It has the ERN
19 range D0004761 to D0004762. This is a document which, I think the
20 evidence will be, mistakenly attributes the publication date to the
21 21st of November, 2004. That is an accurate translation from the Arabic.
22 You may recall that during the evidence of the Witness Maarouf
23 Al-Daouq, Ms. Beri had taken Mr. Al-Daouq to a couple of examples where
24 the publication dates did not always accord or there were typographical
25 errors relating to the actual publication dates. They were sometimes a
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 65 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 month off. And I think that you will find from the evidence of this
2 witness that the publication date was, in fact, the 20th of October, but
3 I'll get there in a moment.
4 But having said that, if we could make this the next exhibit, I
5 would be grateful.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It will be Exhibit P452.
7 Mr. Hammoud, can you just clarify for me. A moment ago you said:
8 "... made me read the draft declaration of apology ..." Can you just --
9 I think we've had some evidence about this, but can you just tell me in
10 your own words what the draft declaration of apology was? If you just
11 look on the transcript there, it might ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This declaration is the final
13 declaration which I have looked at -- I looked at the draft document or
14 several draft documents before it became a final declaration.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The words I'm interested in are "of
16 apology." That's what I -- that's what it says in our transcript or I
17 heard interpreted so I was asking you to look at the transcript. Is that
18 what you're saying? Is it the resignation or is it an apology? Or what
19 is it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Arabic, when a person is
21 entrusted with forming the government and decides that he will not form
22 this government, the word used is the word "eitizar," impossibility to
23 form a government. [In English] Turning down the assignment.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just in English is "apology" the right word?
25 THE WITNESS: It could be in a sense if you ask me to do
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 66 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 something and I apologize from doing it. I apologize that I cannot do
2 it. But this is a polite way to say no.
3 MR. CAMERON:
4 Q. It's a regretful decline?
5 A. It is. The exact translation would be "declining the task or the
6 responsibility of forming the government."
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. With that we might be able to
8 put you on the payroll upstairs in the booth.
9 Thank you, Mr. Cameron.
10 MR. CAMERON:
11 Q. I would like to take you to a couple of the passages and ask you
12 if these were the ones you had discussed with the Prime Minister in
13 advance and what they were intended to convey. So at the first page of
14 the press release D0004761, we see the following text in quotation marks
15 under the heading: "Prime Minister Hariri released the following
16 statement." It says:
17 "'No one disagrees on the magnitude of the domestic and foreign
18 challenges that beset Lebanon and our Arab world. However, the primary
19 challenge before us all concerns how to face these challenges and the
20 national elements required to stave off the present dangers from Lebanon
21 and the Arab world.'"
22 Now, is that part of the original draft that you looked at with
23 the Prime Minister and discussed?
24 A. [Interpretation] Honestly, I do not remember. Probably yes, but
25 honestly I don't recall.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 67 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. And going to the second paragraph:
2 "Confronting these challenges - any challenges - cannot be except
3 through a cohesive domestic front in tune with the aspirations and will
4 of the Lebanese people and their trust in their nation and government.
5 These are the goals that I still consider to form a sound basis for a
6 government that assumes the responsibility of the public sphere; which
7 confirm the commitment of Lebanon's national foundations; and which do
8 not breach the elements of trust with the country's citizens."
9 Now, is that a passage that you spoke about with the Prime
10 Minister before its issuance?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And may I ask: What is this passage intended to convey to the
13 Lebanese citizenry?
14 A. I believe that this paragraph aims at the following: Informing
15 the Lebanese that I cannot form the government I wanted to form.
16 Q. And what specifically are the words that best convey that
17 sentiment in this passage.
18 A. "... a cohesive domestic front in tune with the aspiration and
19 the will of the Lebanese people and their trust in their nation and
20 government, they are goals that I still consider to form a sound basis
21 for a government that assumes the responsibility of the public sphere and
22 which confirms the commitments of Lebanon's national foundations and
23 which do not breach elements of trust with the country's citizens."
24 Q. On the following page there's a sentence that I'd like to ask you
25 about, page number 2 of the press release, and it says the following:
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 68 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 "'I entrust this beloved country of Lebanon and its kind people
2 to God Almighty, and I express my deepest thanks and gratitude to those
3 who worked with me during this period.'"
4 Now, did you discuss this sentence with the Prime Minister before
5 it was included in the press release?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what was the nature of the discussions?
8 A. I would like to clarify the following. When Prime Minister
9 Hariri summoned me to his office to read the draft and the other drafts,
10 Minister Bassem Sabeh, and I believe that the minister played a major
11 role in the drafting of this declaration and he usually played an
12 important role in drafting the very sensitive, vital declarations in the
13 political life of Prime Minister Hariri. And I recall that the
14 discussion on this paragraph centred around -- I'm sure that I said, and
15 I believe that Minister Sabeh said the same thing, "That this sentence,
16 Prime Minister, gives the following impression: That you are withdrawing
17 totally and completely from political life. Thus, we have to cross it
18 out." And Prime Minister Hariri insisted on keeping the sentence in the
19 text. And if my memory doesn't fail me, later on the Minister Marwan
20 Hamade arrived, he read the draft and made the same comment. If it
21 wasn't the three of us, at least two out of three were begging the Prime
22 Minister to cross out the sentence.
23 It reached a point where in one of the drafts, coming back from
24 the print, which were printed by the secretariat in the house of the
25 Prime Minister, I got the draft and I crossed it out with my hand and the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 69 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Prime Minister with his pen re-wrote it in. So there was true discussion
2 over the sentence, but Prime Minister Hariri insisted on adding the
3 sentence in the declaration fully. It reached a point where he said,
4 "Cross out the whole declaration and leave the sentence. This is the
5 sentence which is the declaration."
6 Q. What was it about this sentence that you understood to be so
7 important to the Prime Minister to convey? What did it mean to him?
8 A. Back then, frankly speaking, I did not understand the
9 significance of this sentence; however, later on, in the coming
10 days - and here I would like to be very transparent - I would like to
11 tell you that this sentence took a different significance, a different
12 meaning, after the assassination of Prime Minister Hariri. It was clear
13 to me that in this sentence he was telling the Lebanese people that: I'm
14 not abandoning you, I'm not leaving you, I am compelled to leave you, I
15 am prevented -- I am being prevented from taking part in the public and
16 national life in my country. This was the message that I understood from
17 this sentence.
18 Q. And do you know when it was that the declaration or the release
19 was actually made public?
20 A. As soon as the declaration was ready to be read in its final
21 version, Prime Minister Rafik Hariri asked late Abou-Tareq to prepare the
22 convoy so that they can head to Baabda Palace and to have a meeting with
23 President Emile Lahoud and to submit to him his resignation practically,
24 his regretful decline. As soon as Prime Minister Hariri knew that the
25 convoy was ready, he asked me to join him to the living room on the fifth
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 70 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 floor and this is an area that is reserved to major receptions,
2 et cetera. He asked me to stand next to a telephone headset that was on
3 a little table in the living area. He gave me the declaration and he
4 told me, "You stand here, you don't move from here, you don't talk to
5 anyone, you don't listen to anyone, you don't discuss anything with
6 anyone. As soon as you receive a phone call on this phone - and he
7 showed it to me - stating that I am about to enter the presidential
8 palace, as soon as you receive the phone call, you distribute the
9 declaration." And this is what happened, I received a phone call from
10 late Abou-Tareq, who told me, "Our master is about to enter the
11 presidential palace." I immediately called my colleagues in the media
12 office and we distributed the statement. This was before he started his
13 meeting with President Emile Lahoud.
14 Q. Do you know why it was that he engaged in this kind of sequence
15 of events?
16 A. First of all, he wanted to make sure that this sentence will not
17 be crossed out of the statement and that there should -- and that I would
18 not receive pressure or interventions from anyone to cross out the
19 sentence, and later on we found a solution to my disagreement with the
20 Prime Minister. But most importantly, he wanted to have resigned prior
21 to his meeting with President Emile Lahoud. He did not want to allow any
22 opportunity for any intimidation or attempt to convince him by President
23 Emile Lahoud or pressure, anything that would put on him pressure so that
24 he can go ahead with his assignment to form the cabinet. He wanted to
25 resign prior to the meeting.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 71 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Why would President Lahoud have wanted him
2 to stay on in power?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give you an assessment
4 because I did not hear anything from President Lahoud on this matter. My
5 assessment was the following: First of all, it's much easier to control
6 Rafik Hariri and his political movements and line if he is a prime
7 minister, if he is in an official capacity. Second, Mr. Rafik Hariri was
8 a prominent personality in terms of economic relations, international
9 relations for any president's term. President Lahoud was about to embark
10 on a new term and he wanted to secure bigger chances in terms of public
11 administration, especially that he had a failed attempt earlier with a
12 government that was not headed by Prime Minister Rafik Hariri at the
13 beginning of his term in 1998 till 2000 and that government led the
14 country to some catastrophic results.
15 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Hammoud, I am re-reading this
16 sentence: I place this beloved country Lebanon and its good people in
17 God's hands, blessed be his name. I didn't understand how you saw in
18 this something that he used in order to say that: I'm compelled to
19 resign.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In other terms, he was saying that:
21 I surrender, we cannot rely but on God, we are dealing with people who
22 are totally stubborn about that position. I am surrendering and I am
23 relying on God. This is what he meant through this sentence.
24 MR. CAMERON:
25 Q. By this time do I understand it that the Prime Minister had
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 72 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 already developed an affinity with those who comprised the Bristol
2 Gathering who had met prior to the assassination attempt on Marwan Hamade
3 on the 22nd of September?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did you have discussions with the Prime Minister throughout
6 the months in the latter end of 2004 as to whether or not he should
7 attend the Bristol Gathering personally or through one or more of his
8 representatives?
9 A. At the beginning, that means the period that was before the
10 resignation and the declaration turning down the assignment, it was
11 obvious that Premier Hariri wanted to be represented and not to attend
12 those meetings. His representation was due to take place through the
13 attendance of MP Ghattas Khoury, Ahmad Fatfat, and late Minister Bassel
14 Fuleihan. Bassel Fuleihan did not attend the first Bristol Group
15 meeting; it was attended only by Ghattas Khoury and Ahmad Fatfat.
16 On the following day, in the morning, when I saw Prime Minister
17 Hariri I asked him, "My understanding was that Bassel was due to attend
18 the Bristol meeting. Why didn't he attend it?" His answer was the
19 following, "I am a carrier, I'm not a scooter." I said, "How come?" He
20 said, "When a scooter wants to change his direction, it's very easy for a
21 scooter; however, it's very difficult for a plane carrier. They need to
22 take a lot of time and to walk for a long distance before being able tot
23 change their course. So be patient, do not rush."
24 During the second Bristol meeting, Bassel Fuleihan attended the
25 meeting after Prime Minister Hariri had submitted his declaration of
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 73 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 resignation --
2 Q. If I could --
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, I'm still not understanding the
4 scooter versus carrier --
5 MR. CAMERON: I'll get to it --
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: -- analogy --
7 MR. CAMERON: -- let me get to it.
8 Q. I just want to clear up a factual scenario so that we're roughly
9 on the same page. If the evidence were to show that Ghattas Khoury did
10 not attend the first Bristol Group meeting on September the 22nd but did
11 attend the second Bristol Group meeting on the 13th of December, and then
12 Ghattas Khoury and Bassel Fuleihan attended the third Bristol Group
13 meeting on the 2nd of February, does that adjust your understanding of
14 when you had that conversation with the Prime Minister about the scooter
15 and the aircraft carrier?
16 A. Yes. The fact that MP Ghattas Khoury joined the Bristol
17 Gathering meetings meant that there is a kind of a defence margin prior
18 to having Prime Minister Rafik Hariri joining the Bristol Gathering
19 meetings.
20 In other terms, MP Ghattas Khoury is a Maronite Member of
21 Parliament representing the constituency of Achrafieh whose majority are
22 Christians. MP Ghattas Khoury has been present in the political life of
23 Lebanon prior to joining the bloc of Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. He is
24 known to -- throughout his political activities and he is known to be
25 close to the so-called Qornet-Chehwan Gatherings that were turned later
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 74 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 into a wider opposition represented by the Bristol Gathering.
2 MP Ahmad Fatfat is an MP representing Dennieh, north of Lebanon.
3 He was elected within the context of a direct confrontation against the
4 will of the Syrians during the elections of the year 2000. He was not
5 deemed to be representing directly MP -- sorry, Premier Hariri.
6 As to Minister Bassel Fuleihan, it was obvious and clear to all
7 the political figures in Lebanon that if he would attend the Bristol
8 meetings, this would be anonymous [as interpreted] to the participation
9 of Premier Hariri in the Bristol meetings. So this analogy, this image
10 that he used when he described or talked about the airplane carrier, he
11 meant that he needed some time prior to enabling Bassel Fuleihan to
12 attend the Bristol Gathering meetings. This is what he meant, he needed
13 more time and a bigger strategy in order to join the Bristol Gathering
14 meeting.
15 Q. So the second Bristol Gathering meeting on the 13th of December,
16 Ghattas Khoury attends. You then have a conversation with the Prime
17 Minister on the following day and say, "What's up? I thought
18 Dr. Fuleihan would attend as well." That's when he says to you, "Be
19 patient, I'm not a scooter, I'm an aircraft carrier. It takes me time to
20 change positions and course." Is that what we're to take from what
21 you've said?
22 A. You are placing some doubts in my mind. From what I remember,
23 this happened after the first Bristol Gathering meeting. This is
24 according to what I remember. After the first Bristol Gathering meetings
25 I asked Prime Minister Hariri, "Why didn't Minister Bassel Fuleihan
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 75 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 attend the first meeting?" From what I remember, Minister Fuleihan
2 attended the second Bristol Gathering meeting, but maybe I'm wrong, I
3 don't remember well.
4 Q. The two are not necessarily inconsistent, but I think the
5 evidence will show, from all of the previous witnesses and the film
6 footage, that Dr. Fuleihan attended for the first time the third Bristol
7 Group meeting which was held on the 2nd of February, 2005, and that
8 Ghattas Khoury attended the second Bristol Group Meeting on the 13th of
9 December, 2004. So having regard to that timing, I think which is on
10 common ground, is it still possible that you would ask the Prime Minister
11 after the first Bristol Group meeting, "Why didn't you send Dr. Fuleihan
12 then"?
13 A. [In English] I stand corrected --
14 Q. I don't want to correct you. I just want to get your best
15 recollection.
16 A. [Interpretation] I remember that one of the meetings of the
17 Bristol Gatherings - I don't remember if it was the first or the second
18 one - and where I was expecting that Bassel Fuleihan would attend based
19 on my discussions with both Mr. Hariri and Mr. Fuleihan, he did not
20 attend. And maybe I put that question to Mr. Hariri, most likely, maybe
21 it's on the -- after the second Bristol Gathering meeting, based on your
22 question and based also on what I remember right now.
23 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Mr. Hammoud, based on the image
24 that you have conveyed to us, this comparison between the aircraft
25 carrier and the scooter, we understand that he hadn't made up his mind
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 76 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 yet to join the opposition ranks. Was he slowly dragged towards the
2 opposition?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had made up his mind but he
4 needed enough time to implement his decision. This image is reflected by
5 the comparison with the long time it takes for an aircraft carrier to
6 change its course and direction.
7 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] What was he waiting for between
8 the first Bristol Gathering meeting and the third one in order to make up
9 his mind to take his decision? Was he waiting for a certain message to
10 be conveyed to him from the Syrians? Why? What's the reason? Why
11 didn't he take this decision following Bristol 1 meeting?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the Prime Minister resigned
13 and turned down the assignment, he had made up his mind to take part in
14 the upcoming elections from a position of opposition in order to break
15 the status quo and in order to be part of the Bristol Gathering. His
16 strategic decision was based on a previous experience when he ran for
17 elections in the year 2000 from a perspective of opposition and where he
18 won a landslide victory during that round of elections.
19 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] So you are linking that to his
20 position regarding the elections, namely, his alliance with
21 Qornet-Chehwan and Bristol. As to the Bristol Gathering statements, they
22 were calling for the withdrawal of the Syrian army much more than calling
23 for other matters pertaining to the elections. So my questions -- my
24 question is the following: He did not make up his mind regarding the
25 call for the withdrawal of the Syrian army after Bristol 1?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 77 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those requests by the Bristol
2 Gathering participants could constitute the electoral programme for the
3 upcoming elections. That's why endorsing such requests by joining the
4 Bristol Gathering was not a matter of political opportunism. He wanted
5 to win the elections from a perspective of opposition and accordingly
6 re-form the balance of power in Lebanon on the basis of the results of
7 the elections.
8 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Do you think that his decision was
9 a firm one, irrevocable decision?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was a final decision.
11 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Why wasn't he represented by more
12 than two or three members of his bloc?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because he was assassinated.
14 Because he was not given enough time to continue changing his course or
15 position, but it was clear that Prime Minister Rafik Hariri would one day
16 attend in person the Bristol Gathering meetings.
17 MR. CAMERON:
18 Q. Following the Prime Minister's resignation on the 20th of
19 October, were you aware of any diminution in his security?
20 A. Yes, yes. I remember that in November 2004 I was with Premier
21 Hariri in Monte Carlo where he was spending some time with his wife.
22 When we were there, we received the news from Lebanon that it has been
23 decided to reduce the security detail of the ISF that were in charge of
24 the personal protection of Premier Hariri. They were reduced to four
25 staff only.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 78 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. And did the Prime Minister have an understanding as communicated
2 to you as to who was responsible for this reduction in his security?
3 A. This decision was under the scope of responsibility of the ISF
4 director general, back then Director Ali Hajj. But according to
5 Mr. Hariri's point of view and this is what he told me in Monte Carlo, he
6 said that such a decision cannot be taken or made without the approval or
7 without orders from either the Syrian regime or President Emile Lahoud.
8 At that time when we were discussing this matter he told me the
9 following, "When I submitted my regretful decline to form the government,
10 without asking him he said to me, 'Nothing will change for you, no one
11 will reduce the number of security staff, everything will remain the same
12 even though you have expressed your decline to form the government.'" But
13 Premier Hariri continued and said to me, "Look at the result now."
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, how was this communicated to
15 Mr. Hariri? It's not clear from the last answer. We're trying to work
16 out how this decision was communicated.
17 MR. CAMERON: Yes.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You're exploring that?
19 MR. CAMERON: Yes.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay.
21 MR. CAMERON:
22 Q. I'm just going to back up a little bit. When you say that he was
23 informed at the time of his resignation, I took it to understand that you
24 were talking about President Lahoud had said nothing would change in
25 respect of his security, that was on the date of his resignation?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 79 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then when you were in Monte Carlo in November, how was it
3 that the Prime Minister got word that this had changed?
4 A. Simply put, he received a phone call from his security people in
5 his security detail in Beirut and he was told that all the security staff
6 of the ISF were withdrawn from his residence and that only four ISF staff
7 remained at the residence.
8 Q. And do you know which of his security staff gave him the bad news
9 offhand?
10 A. I think that the news came from late Abou-Tareq, his name was
11 Yahya El-Arab, and it was later on confirmed by martyr late Wissam
12 El-Hassan. I think after he received the news from Abou-Tareq he called
13 Wissam, and Wissam asked people in the ISF and he confirmed the news for
14 him. He told him that: This is what the law stipulates, you are
15 entitled to only four security staff because you are a former prime
16 minister and they have limited the number to four security staff.
17 However, it was known that all former prime ministers were accompanied
18 and escorted by much more than four ISF staff to ensure their protection.
19 Q. And do you know from your conversations with the Prime Minister
20 how he felt about this?
21 A. He considered it a childish decision. He considered it as a
22 decision justified by some hatred. He did not link it in front of me at
23 least to any security perspective. His reading of or his interpretation
24 of this decision was that it was a childish decision and that they were
25 turning something that is supposed to be stipulated by the law into a
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 80 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 personal matter.
2 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Hammoud, do you think Prime Minister
3 Hariri's death could have been avoided had this security not been reduced
4 in this way, that it might not have taken place?
5 THE WITNESS: The Italians say: "Chi lo sa?"
6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm so sorry, but I don't speak Italian, I have
7 to confess.
8 THE WITNESS: Who knows?
9 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Hammoud.
10 MR. CAMERON: The next document I would like to take the witness
11 to appears at position 11 in the Arabic and 10 in the English. It's a
12 Press Review issued by the United Nations Information Centre. It has
13 already been admitted as Exhibit P443, and it has an ERN range of
14 D0410080 to D0410088.
15 Q. And there are two brief passages that I wanted to ask you about.
16 The first is under the heading at the top of the page: "Chirac says
17 France to keep eyes open on implementation of 1559." And the Middle East
18 Reporter -- under the heading "The Middle East Reporter" appears the
19 following text:
20 "French President Jacques Chirac acknowledged Thursday that the
21 implementation of the UN Security Council Resolution 1559 is extremely
22 important to France and that the French government will keep its eyes
23 open on this issue especially in light of the Lebanese parliamentary
24 elections slated for spring."
25 Now, was it your impression that this kind of position from
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 81 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 France and other countries as to the implementation of Resolution 1559
2 remained reasonably constant throughout the latter part of 2004 and into
3 2005?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The second passage that I'd like to draw your attention to
6 appears in the next paragraph under the heading: "Washington warns
7 against harming Lebanese opposition politicians." The following text
8 appears:
9 "US Assistant Deputy Secretary of State for Middle East Affairs
10 Elizabeth Debell said Thursday Washington will not be lenient with any
11 physical harm befalling Lebanese opposition politicians in an attempt to
12 sway the parliamentary elections, An-Nahar reported Friday. While
13 warning that the US will watch closely the general elections, Debell said
14 Washington will hold Syria and the Lebanese that support it responsible
15 for any 'physical liquidation' of Lebanese political figures. 'We will
16 also hold them responsible for any interference in the electoral
17 process,' Debell told the paper."
18 And my question of you is: Do you recall this statement of
19 Ms. Debell, the US Assistant Deputy Secretary of State, at this time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you have discussions with the Prime Minister during this
22 period of time about potential security risks that in particular involved
23 his physical safety?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were you concerned for the Prime Minister's physical safety
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 82 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 during this period?
2 A. I was and I wasn't the only one in this case. I had fears over
3 the life of the martyr late Prime Minister Hariri, but I must admit that
4 I was also a victim of his -- the lack of importance he gave to those
5 questions and he thought this would be impossible. But yes, I did have
6 those fears that he might be assassinated.
7 Q. Why do you say that the Prime Minister thought it was impossible?
8 A. Every time the question was put to him, either on the occasion of
9 a warning message or when somebody spontaneously would say, "I fear for
10 your life," he had a complex answer. First of all, he'd say, "This is
11 destiny, the believer believes in destiny." And, "We will only be hurt
12 by what is written by God for us," which means what God wants will
13 happen, no need to worry about that. And the other part of this complex
14 answer would be, "They are not crazy. They'd be committing suicide if
15 they killed me and they are not crazy enough to commit suicide."
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Why did he believe that, the last part?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe and in all truthfulness
18 that -- after the events I believe he was at peace. There were direct
19 messages that were sent to the Syrians in order not to harm him
20 physically or the Minister Walid Jumblatt. And more specifically, after
21 the attempt of assassination of Minister Marwan Hamade until the day
22 Prime Minister Hariri was assassinated, I believe he had great trust that
23 there were many warning messages passed on, messages that would stop
24 anyone who would think of killing him to try and kill him.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You've only referred to the Syrians. Were
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 83 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 there others?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time it was clear, at least
3 to me, that anyone coming and saying Prime Minister Hariri's life is in
4 danger or even if I express my fear over his life, we meant from the
5 Syrians. The Syrians were controlling the whole country and anyone would
6 clearly see - and please allow me to say any child in any school knew -
7 that this would not happen unless the Syrians were behind it at the time.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Why are you so categorical about excluding
9 anyone else from this equation?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because all the warnings, all the
11 scarecrows that spoke about his assassination, his physical elimination,
12 came around the Syrians. It would say the Syrians, the Syrians, and
13 around the problem between him and the Syrians. And his gradual joining
14 of the opposition and the accusation, the permanent accusation, that he
15 was the father of Resolution 1559.
16 MR. CAMERON:
17 Q. Now, were you aware of a meeting that occurred between the Prime
18 Minister, Rustom Ghazaleh, and Charles Ayoub on the 9th of January, 2005,
19 at Quraitem Palace?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And were you aware of the meeting before it occurred?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did your understanding of the meeting come from the Prime
24 Minister himself?
25 A. Yes.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 84 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. And what did the Prime Minister tell you about the meeting prior
2 to its occurrence?
3 A. Before the meeting he told me that: "Rustom Ghazaleh and
4 Mr. Charles Ayoub are coming to have lunch at my place." Full stop. He
5 didn't say anything else.
6 Q. And who did you understand Charles Ayoub to be?
7 A. Charles Ayoub, Mr. Charles Ayoub, was the chief editor of the
8 newspaper El-Diyar, which is a Lebanese Newspaper.
9 Q. And did you have an understanding of his political affiliation?
10 A. Yes, and this is common knowledge and he's not ashamed of saying
11 that he is a Syrian ally of the Syrian regime.
12 Q. And after the meeting did you have a discussion with the Prime
13 Minister about what had occurred?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And can you tell us what that discussion entailed?
16 A. I asked him how was this meeting and he answered in one sentence.
17 He said, "I have informed them that I'm not ready to take any candidate
18 on my election lists. I've informed the Brigadier-General
19 Rustom Ghazaleh."
20 Q. What did that mean to you? What was he talking about?
21 A. There were four Members of Parliament on the electoral lists of
22 Prime Minister Rafik Hariri that won seats in Beirut in the elections of
23 the year 2000. Those MPs were people that the Syrians wanted to have on
24 those lists. In preparation for the elections of 2005 while the lists
25 were prepared for the Beirut area, Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 85 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 informing the Syrian regime that this time round he would not put on his
2 own electoral lists any candidate requested by the Syrians on his lists.
3 Q. And did he describe anything about the participation in the
4 meeting of Charles Ayoub or Brigadier-General Rustom Ghazaleh?
5 A. My impression -- and honestly I don't remember whether he said so
6 clearly or not, but my feeling was that the role of Charles Ayoub was
7 only to accompany Rustom Ghazaleh to this lunch. As if he was the
8 intermediary who told Rustom Ghazaleh, "Please be kind enough to come and
9 have lunch at Mr. Rafik Hariri's house, he wants to have a discussion
10 with you." This is the feeling I have.
11 MR. CAMERON: I'd like now to take the witness to a document that
12 will contain a number of phone numbers in sequence and is intended to be
13 merely an aide-memoire for the moment about what I expect the evidence to
14 show in future. And I'm going to ask that because it's merely an
15 aide-memoire at this stage that it not be publicly broadcast, but
16 nevertheless in due course introduced as an exhibit because of the
17 identification of the phone numbers by Mr. Hammoud. And the --
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: So you want it marked for identification?
19 MR. CAMERON: Yes, please. It's a four-page document and I'll
20 probably take the witness to two of the pages, but the document appears
21 at number 25 in the English and 24 in the Arabic of the presentation
22 queue. And if I could ask -- it's not there? Just 25. And if that
23 could not be broadcast but nevertheless shown to the witness.
24 Q. Now, are you able with the font that is there to read the screen,
25 Mr. Hammoud?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 86 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Now, the first section of the table that I'd like to
3 take you to, this is at ERN 60305996, there are two tables that appear.
4 The first table has the heading: The 10th of January, 2005. This is the
5 day following the meeting with Rustom Ghazaleh, Charles Ayoub, and the
6 Prime Minister. And I expect the evidence will show that at 10:23:24,
7 Mr. Ali Jaber, using a mobile number in the -- from out of Lebanon calls
8 you in West Beirut and speaks to you for 124 seconds.
9 Now, can you tell me who Ali Jaber is, please.
10 A. Ali Jaber is a personal friend of mine. We met when we were
11 children. He's one of the best television people in the Arab world
12 today. We were colleagues for a very long time in Future TV,
13 Al Mustaqbal television. And at the time, if I recall well, he worked in
14 Dubai in the television, in the UAE.
15 Q. And at the second row of that table there is an indication that
16 11:18:07 there's a call from you. And is that your number there that's
17 listed in that box on the left-hand side under caller of row 2, that was
18 the phone number you were using at the time? Called back to Mr. Jaber on
19 a different number now. And do you happen to recognize that number as
20 his number at the time in Lebanon?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you speak for 134 seconds. And then the third thing that
23 appears to happen that day is that both you and Mr. Jaber are recorded
24 as -- on the visitors log-book for Quraitem Palace as entering
25 Quraitem Palace at 13.40 hours and leaving at 15.55 hours.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 87 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 MR. CAMERON: And for the sake of the record, the visitors
2 log-book was entered as P301 and the entry on the 10th of January, 2005,
3 for this appears at ERN D0380846. In the PDF version of the log-book
4 it's page 324, and the entry relating to Mr. Hammoud is for -- is number
5 15702 and the entry for Mr. Jaber immediately after is 15703.
6 Q. Now, do you remember what happens during this sequence of calls
7 back and forth and then it appears an appearance of both of you at
8 Quraitem Palace? Do you remember what went on?
9 A. Yes. During the first phone conversation from his Emirate phone
10 number, Mr. Ali Jaber was informing me, by phone, that he had arrived on
11 Lebanese soil coming from Syria. He told me, "I just crossed the
12 border." And we agreed during this conversation that I would call him
13 later on, giving him enough time to arrive from the border post in Masnaa
14 to Beirut and to tell him where we would meet. So the second
15 conversation, when I called him after about 50 minutes from the first
16 phone call, I told him, "I'm in my office at the newspaper in the area of
17 Ramlet-El-Baida, join me at my office."
18 And the entrance and exit together from the Quraitem Palace is
19 due to the fact that after arriving to my office we stayed a little while
20 in my office, and then we went together to the Quraitem Palace. We met
21 together with Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. We had lunch together,
22 Mr. Ali Jaber, Prime Minister Hariri, and myself, and we left together
23 after lunch.
24 Q. All right. Now, breaking it down, when Mr. Jaber called you
25 initially, having just arrived back in Lebanon, what was the purpose of
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 88 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 his call to you?
2 A. A week before that occurrence, it was the 4th of January, 2005, I
3 was in Paris with Prime Minister Hariri. Mr. Ali Jaber called me from
4 the UAE and told me: I am going to Syria. I will see -- and he told me
5 Bouthaina Chaaban, the adviser of President Assad, and Asef Chawkat, who
6 was the brother-in-law of President Assad and he was an important
7 intelligence director. And the Syrian television was using the Dubai
8 television to improve the image of the television and the work of the
9 television and the output of Syrian television, so they wanted somebody
10 from Dubai or the Arab world to come to Syria and help them improve their
11 image. And he was part of this team who was going to help the Syrian
12 television. And he asked me, Mr. Ali Jaber asked me: Do you want
13 something from there? By that he meant does the Prime Minister want
14 something from Syria? Can I serve him in one way or another? I informed
15 the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister told me: Just tell him to try
16 and see what is the atmosphere, it's a very general, elastic expression
17 we use in Lebanon, try and understand what's happening on the political
18 scene and let him come and see us when he finishes his visit to Syria.
19 So I gave Mr. Ali Jaber the answer of the Prime Minister and we agreed to
20 meet after his return. That is why on the day of his return on the 10th
21 of January, that is to say, five or six days from the call to Paris, he
22 told me first of all that he had entered Lebanese ground. We agreed we
23 would meet in my office. He came to my office and we went together in my
24 car to Quraitem and we had lunch with Prime Minister Hariri.
25 Q. And when did you understand that Mr. Jaber had actually met the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 89 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 officials in Syria? Had it been the same day or at some time earlier?
2 A. During the days when he was in Damascus in this media mission but
3 he didn't say today, yesterday, the day before, he said: I saw them.
4 Q. And so you take him to the Prime Minister and you have lunch
5 together and what does Mr. Jaber say?
6 A. Mr. Ali Jaber repeated what he had told me in summary in my
7 office before we both went together to lunch with Prime Minister Hariri.
8 And to summarize what was said, first of all, he informed Prime Minister
9 Hariri that he met with Bouthaina Chaaban and Asef Chawkat and Walid
10 Moallem and Ghazi Kanaan. Those are the names that I recall him
11 mentioning. And he said in summary: They're all going mad. [In
12 English] They're paranoid [Interpretation] He used the word "paranoid."
13 They are completely scared and they're ready to do anything possible and
14 they're all insulting you together. They are all putting the
15 responsibility of 1559 on your back. They are accusing you of being a
16 traitor and a traitor to Syria.
17 Q. And how did the Prime Minister take this news?
18 A. At first he concentrated on the word "paranoid." He said: What
19 do you mean by "paranoid"? So he said: Asef Chawkat told me that they
20 are doing fortifications in the Alawite mountain, which is a coastal area
21 in Syria, so they're building fortifications, they are gathering weapons,
22 they are expecting a military attack against them, they're so paranoid.
23 And at the time I remember the Prime Minister was talking to Ali and
24 meaning: Why would Asef Chawkat tell you such a thing? And jokingly I
25 said: Well, because he came in the car of Asef Chawkat to my office.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 90 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 And the Prime Minister said: How? I told Ali: Tell him. Ali said: He
2 came with a car with a Syrian plate. And Ali Jaber said: I came in a
3 car that was given to me by Asef Chawkat. And Prime Minister said: Oh,
4 you're so important.
5 And the other part the Prime Minister insisted on was Walid
6 Moallem. When he heard that Bouthaina Chaaban, Asef Chawkat, Ghazi
7 Kanaan are insulting him, calling him a traitor, well, fine. I mean,
8 there's nothing new there, is there? They've all been saying this for
9 years. And he said: Walid Moallem is saying the same thing? So the
10 Prime Minister said: Could you please repeat word for word what Walid
11 Moallem said? And Ali repeated: He is a traitor, he's plotting against
12 Syria, it's all his fault, et cetera, and the summary of the story that
13 they were going crazy because of 1559, contrary to other media leaks and
14 media positions they were publishing, we don't care about 1559, 1559 will
15 never be implemented, et cetera. And honestly Ali Jaber, Mr. Ali Jaber
16 was very worried. He was saying all this and he was deeply worried for
17 the safety of Prime Minister Hariri and what could be done to harm him.
18 And I recall that the first time I met my friend and colleague
19 Mr. Ali Jaber after that, it was on the day of the funeral of Prime
20 Minister Hariri. At the funeral he came and he was -- his eyes were
21 pouring with tears and he said: I told you, I told him, remember I came
22 and I told him: They'll kill you. This is what happened at this
23 meeting.
24 Q. What was your understanding as to why the Prime Minister was
25 particularly interested in what Walid Moallem had said during the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 91 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 meeting?
2 A. Information was seeping through that President Al-Assad had
3 understood that the Lebanese were not at ease, that politically they were
4 dealt with through intelligence officers, security officers. He was
5 preparing the way for a politician to be his intermediary, somebody who's
6 neither security nor intelligence, a "diplomate de carrière," a diplomat
7 by trade, somebody who understands, who's quiet. That was one thing.
8 And on the other hand, Prime Minister Hariri knew Walid Moallem
9 personally when Walid Moallem was ambassador in Washington. And I
10 believe maybe because of this personal relation, Prime Minister Hariri
11 did not expect that Walid Moallem would participate in this concert of
12 insults against him. But this is my own analysis.
13 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Hammoud, you said that he
14 understood from Asef Chawkat that they were building fortifications
15 around the Alawite areas. Whom were they afraid of? If we go back in
16 history towards the beginning of the year 2005, which military force
17 that -- or would threaten them?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was in parallel of the
19 American presence in Iraq and Resolution 1559. These two facts,
20 according to what Mr. Ali Jaber said, this created an atmosphere of
21 paranoia in Syria, namely, among the ranks of the senior military
22 officials in Syria. They were expecting a military attack against Syria.
23 That would lead them to withdraw back to their own areas, that is, the
24 coast, the Syrian coast, known as the Alawite mountain, where they would
25 be entrenched to defend themselves. And Mr. Ali Jaber told us that they
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Hani Hammoud –PRH052 (Open Session) Page 92 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 were building fortifications, transporting ammunitions, weapons,
2 et cetera, to protect the Alawite area from a potential attack, according
3 to what Mr. Jaber said.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Mr. Hammoud, we'll stop there for
5 today. Thank you for your testimony today. Just a brief caution to
6 please not discuss your evidence with anyone between now and tomorrow
7 morning when you come back to court. We will deal with the -- we'll
8 issue our decision on the certification tomorrow morning.
9 Is there anything else we need to deal with before we adjourn?
10 MR. CAMERON: There was the MFI number that I neglected to ask
11 you for. Can I ask you for it in the morning because we're going to
12 continue with that document? It would be --
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We will mark it MFI P453. There's a reason
14 for that, not just the purity of the transcript but also for practical
15 reasons. So --
16 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: -- court stands adjourned until tomorrow.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.03 p.m. 19
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Tuesday, 19 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic.