Chatting with Destabilisers: Accountability to Lgbtiq and Gnc Africans

CHATTING WITH DESTABILISERS: ACCOUNTABILITY TO LGBTIQ AND GNC AFRICANS

WE ASKED: WHAT DOES ACCOUNTABILITY TOWARDS LGBTIQ AND GNC AFRICANS LOOK LIKE?

THEY ANSWERED… 22 ANONYMOUS INTERVIEWS WITH LEADING LGBTIQGNC ACTIVISTS AND HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS AND THEIR ALLIES.

WWW.ACCOUNTABILITY.INTERNATIONAL Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers For this reason, we conducted interviews with 22 LGBTI/ GNC African activists and allies, and without changing what they said, we offer you their words here.

We hope that their analysis of the situation, their thoughts and advice on what should be done to improve access to equality, as well as their warnings, are heeded by us all as we push forward for equality.

To be clear, we did not intend to capture personal experiences of human rights abuses; but some stories did emerge and in the interest of keeping the work as honest to the actual responses of the activists, we have kept the content almost untouched and unchanged (except for removing identifiers and structuring phrasing for comprehension purposes, but only where vital).

We promised interviewees that all identifiers would be removed to allow the interviewees to be as frank as they desired, without fear of repercussion. Not many were worried anyway, given that they are a fearless bunch, but we kept our word anyway.

We call this - the Community of Practice research - at Accountability International because our overall goal is to ensure that we share and leverage each other’s Introduction knowledge, analyses, skills and know-how to arrive at equality as quickly as possible.. In 2018, Accountability International began documenting the tacit knowledge that sits in the This research forms part of the Destabilising minds of our African lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, Heteronormativity Project; a project which aims to intersex, queer and gender non-conforming destigmatise LGBTI/GNC identities and increase activist friends and colleagues. accountability on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression (SOGIE) on the African continent. This knowledge is not yet being actively documented, nor analysed, nor disseminated for use in decision- The 22 interviews were conducted in mid-to-late 2018, making of those working to advance the human with activists from across sub-Saharan Africa. The aim rights of LGBTI/GNC Africans. of the Community of Practice research was to document the rich and diverse knowledge and expertise from We at Accountability International, believe that LGBTI/GNC activists and their allies and as a learning the knowledge, opinions, and experience of these and sharing platform. people is vital to informed decision-making by anyone working in the field of human rights in The Community of Practice research aims to use this as Africa, especially allies, funding partners, and the an accountability and sustainability tool to hold leaders United Nations bodies.

www.accountability.international 3 accountable and to amplify the voices and experiences Through reading and understanding the opinions of African LGBTI/GNC people. Through the research, we of these key experts, we hope you have greater address the following topics, amongst others: insight into what your role might be to advance LGBTI/GNC rights in Africa. • What are the major challenges faced by African LGBTI/GNC today? With thanks and appreciation to our 22 activists • What progress has not been made through LGBTI/ who shared their time, expertise and advice. GNC activism over the last 5-10 years? • What is our understanding of intersectionality and The Accountability Team intersecting movements to make an even greater impact? • What does accountability look like for African LGBTI/ GNC? • What role should allies and funding partners play in supporting the African LGBTI/GNC movement?

Through these interviews we hear from African LGBTI/ GNC people themselves as well as the views of allies who have been working alongside LGBTI/GNC over the years.

WE HOPE THAT THEIR ANALYSIS OF THE SITUATION, THEIR THOUGHTS AND ADVICE ON WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO IMPROVE THE MOVEMENT, AND ACCESS TO EQUALITY AND THEIR WARNINGS AND CAUTIONS ARE ALL HEEDED BY US ALL AS WE PUSH FORWARD FOR EQUALITY.

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers Contents

Introduction...... 3 An Academic Perspective...... 6 A Message to Funding Partners...... 7 Visibility...... 8 Tactics for Inclusion...... 9 The Long Term Goal...... 10 Accountability and Religion...... 12 On Holding Governments Accountable and HIV...... 14 Accountability and the Trans Movement.... 16 On Human Rights...... 18 Roles and Responsibilities...... 21 Where Does Change Happen?...... 22 The Opposition’s Tactics...... 23 Accountability as LGBT Organisations...... 24 Accountability to LGBTIQGNC Diverse Africans?...... 25 To Do List...... 26 About Us...... 27 What does it mean to be accountable?...... 28 Creative Commons...... 28 Notes...... 29 Contact Details...... 30

www.accountability.international 5 don’t challenge that as academics, because why do people say that it’s a Western thing, is because they see mostly the people that talk about it is Western people or from America, etc.

So that means when we don’t talk about it here, we are doing an injustice to our LGBTIQ communities. So if people start seeing and hearing us talking about it, they think then oh, okay.

So instead of my mother always seeing a white person on TV talking about gay rights, lesbian rights, now she’s starting to hear… she can’t be like hey, my child is for that, no I’m not, because she knows, so she will be like ah, maybe not, she’s onto something, okay, let me hear her out. And she will start telling her neighbours you know what, my child was saying. They can’t say now I’m a Western what-what. Because I’m here and I talk to that.

So within that spectrum, I think we are accountable to speak and talk about it, whether you are LGBTIQ identifying or not as an ally also, because you see, you know the truth, therefore why aren’t you seeing anything?

An Academic Perspective So if we keep silent, then we are doing an injustice. So we are very much accountable to our own I think there’s a lot of accountability that needs ❝ people. Ja, future generations. to be there, particularly from our side as academics ❞ because we are challenged with the task of bringing about change within society. So we identify the problems and we are supposed to bring about the solutions and present that to the policy makers, the government and channel it all the way forward. I always say we kind of play the role of, we are the middle man between society and government.

We take what civil society says and then we present it to government. Government engage that channelling, but also in terms of knowledge production, if we don’t, particularly from an African perspective, from an African voice it occurs, and we keep hearing our own people saying the LGBTIQ is not African, it’s a Western thing, it’s Western names, it’s Western concepts, etc, if we

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers know our President likes saying we can’t live without donor money which I believe which I know is not true we live on donor money whether NGOs that do LGBTI work or NGOs that do work on their own we all live on donor money. And I believe donors have a demand to talk about these issues to the government. ❞ ❝ Funding partners need to realise that many activists will not be able to stand up to them in a frank and honest way. They need to realise that they have privilege, they have power. No matter how approachable you think you are as a funder, somebody who needs your money will probably not tell you their whole truth. You think you are an activist, but if you work for a funder, you are ow a funder first and activist second. If you think activists are telling you their entire truth, you are fooling yourself.

So how can you get past this?

Use active phrases such as “Don’t tell me what you think I want to hear, tell me what you really think”; “I can’t help the movement from my privileged position, if I don’t get the brutally honest truth from the activists about what they need us to fund/do/not do”.

Be humble, ask a lot of questions, and don’t put your A Message to Funding personal passion onto the work of others, distorting what Partners the LGBT activists really need to do. And take criticism well, so that you can get the truth and change for the better. And ❝ And in terms of the donor [unclear 0:42:47] look for those who work differently. Don’t just fund what I believe accountability would also be so many of everybody else is funding. Look for those who are trying to our donors give funds to us LGBTI persons, but reach into new areas and expand the scope of the LGBT also fund the government and the sectors within movement and its impact. the government. Accountability is following that and understanding or questioning what is That’s accountable funding. happening in the country. ❞

If we are giving you money and also giving LGBTI persons, but if you are demonizing suffocating, creating barriers for LGBTI persons to get services then the donors also need to find means through which they can address some of these issues because we believe they have [unclear 0:43:42] because they are giving funds to Uganda. They

www.accountability.international 7 the community. Not only with activists, with the community as a whole. And do you think that the government have been accountable when they come to you around election times? Because you said earlier on they only come to you around election times, and then they say ja, but we can’t make it public. Ja, they’re not being held accountable.

And so how do you think they can be held more accountable?

In terms of Botswana, even though it’s beginning to change, I think sometimes we need to call the government out on its, I think it’s really sometimes is shady on how they conduct, or they treat LGBTI people, because when you look at policies like the Employment Act, they do mention that someone can be fired based on their sexual orientation. And then we have the Penal Code again, which is mostly used against LGBTI people, but they claim that it is a general public thing. But a straight person has never been convicted for giving her boyfriend or his girlfriend a blowjob or muffing. It’s used against the LGBTI community. So it’s like there’s a double standard going on.

Visibility You can acknowledge someone in the Employment Act and have a Penal Code that says no, the way My thing would be that they first need to ❝ you engage intimately is against the order of acknowledge that there are people who are LGBTI nature. Ja, so they need to really be clear about by within their churches. My first thing would be everyone. What do we mean by everyone? Do we acknowledge and accept that there are people like mean everyone straight only? Or does this include that, not acting like that is something that exists everybody else who does not identify, or who is not outside your church or exists in America like they straight? So I think that there would come a time always say, in the West world, these things are not where we need to call the government out. here in Africa. My first thing is to acknowledge those ❞ people. Acknowledge that we are here and we’ve been here, and we’re not coming in with a foreign flu or as a foreign disease.

No. Acknowledgement of the community is very, very important here. And always this thing of trying to change people without understanding what really is going through in the person’s life, they need to check themselves and also be willing to go into dialogue with

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers persons in XXX (country identifier removed), and that denial is denial of existence, so we decided that we are going to do a lot of advocacy around research, XXX (identifier removed), (now) there’s research.

So every research, every little partner who comes and says we want to do research with you about this and that, like a survey of the expanse, the prevalence of HIV among the men who have sex with men, we make sure it gets done, and done properly. We’ve been in partnership with, because that’s quite crucial as well, in partnership with the Minister of Health.

So that becomes evidence. So evidence is very critical for us because that’s the way, later on we use it as advocacy, you know, that they, 33% of men who have HIV, so that means we need targeted commodities and so forth. So it’s building that evidence that has become critical as the way of [unclear] You can’t ignore us anymore. There is this whole lot of people that you have criminalised, so you need to change the laws. So it’s those things that Tactics for Inclusion have often been used to deny the existence of LGBT persons, that we use to show our existence, ja. ❝ Of course strategic litigation arises in a ❞ very useful instrument in doing so, using the laws that we already have, the human rights that we already have to claim those. In XXX (Identified country removed) it’s said that everyone has ...EVERY PERSON REGARDLESS OF THEIR freedom to associate, the right to speak to SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER what’s special and so forth. And if you are denied IDENTITY NEEDS TO BE INCLUDED AND WE registration, that right is in accordance. So as far NEED TO SEE INCLUSION OF LGBTI PERSONS as making decisions to go to court and challenge IN THE DATA COLLECTION TOOLS BECAUSE that, it remains in the government and judiciary YOU CAN’T (KNOW/HAVE ACCURACY/ that remember, you have this Constitution and INDISTINCT) IF YOU EXCLUDE A PARTICULAR you are supposed to save that and protect it. GROUP. IF YOU ARE COLLECTING DATA AND EXCLUDE DATA FROM THE MINORITIES, And now this case in court, decriminalisation which FROM THE LGBTI PERSONS, THAT MEANS actually isn’t the case that xxx (Identifier removed) THAT THE REPORTS ALL THE INFORMATION itself took to court, but a member of the community THAT IS GOING TO COME OUT IS NOT did that and when we learnt about it, we said we ACCURATE BECAUSE YOU ARE MISSING OUT A CERTAIN PARTICULAR GROUP. can’t just let one of ours go to court on their own, there’s a whole lot of us here, so that’s when we applied for an [unclear] to do that. And also what has been very crucial in our work, because for a very long time government denied that the LGBT

www.accountability.international 9 LGBTIQ, where the rights of LGBTIQ people are as important as the rights of heterosexual, or anybody else. Something like that would indicate some sense of accountability. ❞ ❝ Okay, so I’m very interested in how we think through the social, and I think every social scientist, every social scientist, it doesn’t matter if it’s psychology or whatever, but that’s the core of what we should do, to think through the social, and to nurture a community of students who are able to see through the social, right? Because the only way you are able to do that, you contributing in any meaningful way.

And so for me part of that thinking through means the issue of accountability cannot stop at a structural level right. So there’s accountability at that level, we need to fight for just that basic recognition of people’s rights to exist and to be, right. And if that means we target our interventional policy, that’s what we do.

If we target our intervention at the institutional cultures that we find ourselves, perfect. But that structural kind of work that should happen, but should happen in conjunction with something else. So for me that level of accountability must be in conversation with another The Long Term Goal level of accountability, and what people will say is that that’s not so important, because if you’ve sorted Accountability... Wow. I think it would look ❝ out the policies and the legal frameworks that surely like what we have now where people are more people should be happy, right? Ja, and I think that level accommodating, people are more accepting, people of activism, misses the whole picture. are more, I don’t want to say tolerant, but yes, people are more tolerant, people can co-exist and people are It’s not just about access, it’s not just about having concerned about the rights of LGBTI. particular kinds of human rights recognised, so it’s about something else, and so now this is just me, right. And also your situation with the government as well, And for me that something else is about answering that shows concern and interest and caring, if you like, for age old question about what it means to be human, the LGBTIQ community. And also a situation where and what it means to be human is that there needs to there’s interaction between organisations where you be a sense of the freedom to look somebody in the eye get actually, I don’t know if collapse, or where people and see a person, right? just land in nicely.

Can we fight for that kind of accountability, if the kind So I think that way then you would say you have an of accountability that people would say doesn’t matter accountable system. And also this thing where something because that’s just individual prejudices, or that’s just can be done about people that transgress the rights of

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers irrelevant things that shouldn’t matter. But I think that things, it’s also about changing peoples’ relationships to matters. Ja. So there is different ways we should be each other in terms of just that humanity. Ja, that level of accountable at. That’s why for me destabilising is not accountability. just about changing policies and changing structural ❞

ACCOUNTABILITY FOR ME IS TO HAVE SERVICE PROVISION THAT IS INCLUSIVE, THAT DOES NOT [UNCLEAR 0:42:08] ON SEXUAL REORIENTATION. ACCOUNTABILITY YOU SPEAK ABOUT YOU GO TO SCHOOL REGARDLESS OF YOUR ORIENTATION BECAUSE IN THE CONSTITUTION EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO EDUCATION, EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO HEALTH, SO ACCOUNTABILITY MEANS THAT SERVICE PROVISION IN TERMS OF HEALTH IT IS EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF THEIR SEXUALITY. EDUCATION BENEFITS EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF THEIR SEXUALITY.

www.accountability.international 11 say they did not do these things, you know, it is law. It is supposed to be done, this way it was done this way. So I think, I’m not sure, but I think there must be a mechanism over a holding religious leaders and government in a country accountable. So, what I will see here is a setup of some kind of mechanism so that everybody can follow same pattern. Okay, if I will hear a pastor took in my origin be race, LGBTIQ Friends, then obviously I have to speak out, that is number one. I’ll speak out. That is law, you know. You are not supposed to do that and we are not use to taking people to court, you know, in change in any way, but you speak out that this is no longer, you are making a statement, to the press, I think you give it to ruling. Only religious leaders I will do things, and it’s law, and they are not supposed to do these things. So you go to press, to the media, and make a statement. ❞ ❝ First of all … a church is responsible for the welfare of all the people. For the safety and the dignity of all people, but it appears that the church is neglecting its responsibility towards the LGBTIQ and the church is using the Bible to legitimize that neglection.

Accountability and Religion IT APPEARS THAT THE CHURCH IS

I think we’ve got a lot of players acting, the NEGLECTING ITS RESPONSIBILITY ❝ TOWARDS THE LGBTIQ AND THE religious leader, can be account-table to the area of CHURCH IS USING THE BIBLE TO doing community. They also going to meet at a hall, the LEGITIMIZE THAT NEGLECTION.” religious people, to held the government accountable, but I don’t know what else is impressive, but I think there must be some kind of mechanism whereby be heard, and the religious people who actually grown …We don’t live in an era where religious leaders are onto, even in South Africa take place over a period of ignorant. They know that there is something that they time. Even South Africa. are supposed to be doing but they also know that if they are to push that, then they will be seen as the If the LGBT People were looking for something that it was black sheep but for how long is that going to happen not done, or things like that. It is the government or they because we don’t live in those days when people used are stichaments. They can be recorded, and by the end to hide behind their fingers. Our children are lesbian. of the year, probably, they can be high-lighted. They can Our children are gay. They are in our churches and even start at a given place until government meet and they are not hiding that but we pretend not to see that

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers they believe the divine is speaking. That I’m speaking of God and they are bound to follow that.…All say that the Pastors, we need to preach responsibly. THERE IS REJECTION, THERE IS A WAY OF HATRED THAT WE ARE PASSING. To preach in ways that encourage positive co-existence. WHAT DOES IT CAUSE? WHAT IS THE To preach in ways that build not ways that destroys IMPACT OF THE MESSAGE THAT WE ARE relationships because the family is the foundation. And the SENDING TO THE COMMUNITY? relationships are important, so if you teach people to (hate) then there is a problem. ❞ ❝ I think we (have all) got a role and we ignore the negativities that come with that, to play so that the religious leader and the church has to stop to hiding behind the Bible is held accountable to the LGBTIQ especially using them [unclear 0:32:58] ideas. The community. I think there must be church has to start not just concentrating on because a mechanism of holding religious what I see they are concentrating on the intimate cards leaders and government in a country of the community. They have to start looking at the accountable. bigger picture. There is rejection, there is a way of ❞ hatred that we are passing. What does it cause? What is the impact of the message that we are sending to the community? Because now we have Christian leaders who have kicked their children out of the houses because of what is being preached in church.

And in the days that you…find that Pastors are worshipped! Even the Pastor, especially in this Pentecostal. If a Pastor says your kids are an evil spirit I WOULD ORGANISE AROUND RELIGION they will take that child out of the house. What about AND POLICY MAKING. I WOULD WANT the rest of the Bible? What does it say about the action TO SEE WORKSHOPS IN RELIGION that you are doing? So the church has to start looking AND PARTICULARLY IN COUNTRY at the effects, not just the action or let me just say, not XXX (IDENTIFIER REMOVED) WE HAVE just what the Bible says. THREE RELIGIONS SOMETIMES WHAT I

The Bible says so many things but we are not SEE (IS) SOME RELIGIONS ARE DENIED concentrating on that. The Bible can stone people but OPPORTUNITY AND … SO ONLY THE we are not concentrating on stoning people. The Bible BIG RELIGIONS ARE ALWAYS TAKING and there is somewhere where it says you should kill ADVANTAGE… THERE IS A LOT THAT what, what… but we are not doing that why are we TAKES PLACE A LOT OF POLITICS SOME concentrating on what somebody said about human PEOPLE ARE DENIED ACCESS TO THESE sexuality. WORKSHOPS AND THINGS LIKE THAT…

If it is a problem then what our proclamations what is the effect we are responsible for our proclamations. If I tell people “Do this!” they start. I mean, when I speak,

www.accountability.international 13 United Nations because they needed access to the five billion dollars that they got suddenly[?]. It comes with if I receive money it comes with certain obligations for you to meet and that is how they become accountable. ❞ ❝ The responsibility that the government has, that responsibility that religious leaders and church have about ensuring that we, as members of their churches, we get medications, they don’t pretend that they can cure us from Aids, that support, supporting the person with HIV. And welcoming everybody whether they are LGB, MSN, Q, whatever.

So for me that’s accountability, it starts right from communities to political leaders, that responsibility and ensuring that trans persons get safety, get homes, it’s cheap, you know the whole aspect of it. That they are taking every [unclear] for free, which I think I believe they should be for free, easily accessible, you don’t have to drive whatever to the metros to go and get that. ❞

On Holding Governments BECAUSE ACTIVISM IS THE HISTORY OF Accountable and HIV THIS COUNTRY, THAT’S THE WAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT LISTENS. IT ONLY LISTENS ❝ For example now with all these three drugs that WHEN YOU GO TO THE STREETS, people are getting, for the ARVs and ARTs, a lot of them RIGHT? are (from) the global (fund). In country some have expired or close to expiry so it is always accountable for somebody who takes drugs around that you get this amount but in six weeks you can’t take anymore, ❝ I think that one of the things is to have so that is the question we need to be asking. a conference where LGBTIQ people come together and we all that, and all the people who That’s very important. Human Rights: that is my claim to be allies, they can now come and tell starting point of holding them accountable because the LGBTIQ community what they are doing, those are universal there is no excuse for something and the government can also come and tell the not to be implemented or not to happen because LGBTIQ community and the development part of somebody decided they didn’t like the look of everybody needs to be accountable and tell the somebody, but they need to be held accountable to LGBTIQ community. declarations they signed in 1984 for example at the

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers I think the LGBTIQ community should hold people It really works to hold people accountable that way. accountable for the pace that they’ve promised, Because activism is the history of this country, that’s and one of the ways to do that is to bring them the way that the government listens. It only listens to a conference to say we are allied here with when you go to the streets, right? So if the people are you, where are we, where and what do you sitting in their offices and they keep emailing to say want to promise us to do? You should find those Dear Minister of Transport, we really would like you opportunities. to address this issue around transport, it will never happen. ❞

I THINK IN TERMS OF ACCOUNTABILITY OF GOVERNMENTS AND POLICY MAKERS, WHAT THEY SAY ON AN INTERNATIONAL LEVEL IS NOT CONGRUENT WITH WHAT HAPPENS AT A COUNTRY LEVEL. FOR EXAMPLE AT AN INTERNATIONAL LEVEL, GOVERNMENTS AND POLICY MAKERS SAY THAT NO ABUSE OR DISCRIMINATION EXISTS AGAINST THEIR LGBTIQ CITIZENS BUT ACTIVISTS ARE SAYING THAT THIS IS NOT TRUE.

www.accountability.international 15 You don’t know what you are talking about, because the medical school is not ready (to) include such things; to delve into it deeply; to have a conversation for people to understand these issues. So I think it’s still a challenge because that is where people go back and say, even though they said no it’s a cosmetic access to health care. It’s not cosmetic. If I wake up every morning I see the breasts. If I wake up every morning I see that I look like a woman, and I think psychologically and most people end up committing suicide. It’s not cosmetic, it’s not because somebody says to wake up and say I want to be like this. No.

So I think the medical schools lose a lot to the trans- community in order for people to change their minds from political leaders to also understand this. But also the religious and cultural people to understand it. Because, if you look at the culture of background of the trans-community, it’s very clear. People understood that. Even though there has not been like thorough research around how different cultures you understood issues on trans-issues, but it’s far much clearer compare to the medical school part of it. So I think the medical school owes a lot to trans-community to say, look this is what human Accountability and the sexuality looks like, and this one … Because it’s very Trans Movement complex and people don’t understand. Only the medical people can make us to understand. ❝ Accountability as the trans-movement or the ❞ trans-indicators are concerned is changing mind-sets, ❝ Accountability for us (as trans people) means changing our thoughts towards the trans-community, recognition affirming recognition because recognition because if you still come with the seventeenth century can also be bad. Secondly, it means inclusion it thoughts around gender identity and expression, it means inclusion in a radical framework, and when becomes a challenge. I think we are living in a very I speak radical framework it is not a simulation privileged era where people have access to internet, into (indistinct)… it is literally disrupting dominant access to books, and access to information, but still can narratives that has led to trans exclusion. To be put a lot understand issues around gender identity. able to speak to the meaningful and comprehensive inclusion for trans diverse and gender diverse persons. But, I think the major accountability issue go to the So it means that the conventional, the way in which medical school, because even the medical practitioners we understand human bodies in relation to sex and themselves, who have a conversation with them right gender will be troubled more in order to speak to now, you talk about issues of gender identity, you talk accountability for the sake of optimal inclusion. So about as furrier and everything else. It’s all I understand. we have spoken about recognition, we have spoken

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers about radical inclusion and then of course it speaks to equitability in the sense of how resources are disbursed, to be able to be able to recognize the difference that a trans gender diverse person [unclear SO IT MEANS THAT THE CONVENTIONAL, 0:25:35] To recognize the different needs the trans THE WAY IN WHICH WE UNDERSTAND gender diverse person has as human beings. Women HUMAN BODIES IN RELATION TO SEX AND have different needs. Cisgender women have different GENDER WILL BE TROUBLED MORE IN needs, cisgender men have different needs, children ORDER TO SPEAK TO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR have different needs. To recognize that gay men have THE SAKE OF OPTIMAL INCLUSION. different needs. Recognize that there is a demographic that is different, but it is also the same like any other human being that their needs cut across the diversity and issues might be different, but there are also needs effectively incorporated by how shelters align their housing that are located within where people locate themselves arrangements for people which at the moment is very within a particular context. And when we speak about boundary orientated. Looking at access to employment, equitable inclusion or equitability then we are looking access to education opportunities both basic and higher, at gender affirming healthcare. access to land, access to housing, so we are looking at equitability that cuts across all sectors of society that needs How do we make sure that the trans gender persons to incorporate provisions for particularly marginalizing are able to access both general care as well as demographic within society. specialist care in an affirming framework within healthcare systems both private as well as public So we are speaking about recognition, we are speaking healthcare systems? We are looking at equitability about inclusion, but we also speaking about within the education system. How are our education equitability. policies conceptualized to be able to speak to practice ❞ within schooling environments and infrastructure development within schooling environments? We are looking at social services. How do we again equitably include and make sure that the trans persons are

EQUITABILITY RESOURCES DISBURSEMENT

RADICAL INCLUSION

RECOGNITION

www.accountability.international 17 were to agree on what it is that we want to do, whether it’s ending stigma, whether it’s ending kind of discrimination, then we’ll be fine. But we are not fine because we want to say we are all working together, but the way the things that we wanted to achieve can sometimes come into sharp attention and contrast in ways that actually makes one want to be able to do. So for example, the question of stigma and discrimination as an entry point in dealing with HIV and AIDS, in some ways has been quite limited or kind of limiting for people who are doing human rights work.

So in the past what we have always said, for example, is that public health is an entry point that enable people to do human rights, because even when governments engage, or they do not engage, this is what you are actually going to end up with. At the very least people are going to be provided with treatment and all sorts of things.

The work that we do here, which is like human rights, doesn’t work like that, because we are not collaborating with the government. In fact our work is confrontational. ❞ On Human Rights ❝ So when we go in and we engage, we are not looking at how many people are going to receive At the heart of it we all have got our roles to play. ❝ treatment, we are not looking at all of those things, we At a policy making level I think we all know that we are are saying your rights have been violated, we need to looking for both kind of institutional legislative kind confront with this government. So for example, using of frameworks, right, that works towards eradicating the example of when we were arrested, we were trying all of these. And of course you want to lose things to do human rights with an organisation that was that detract people from discrimination and you want primarily set up to do public health work, because in the responsive of legislatures and all of those things, their contract stands what it was at the time. those are the things that you wanted to do.

But when they said to us we are now available and The kind of research [unclear] like this is the kind of ready to actually begin confronting at that level, research work that you’d like to do, like some of the because like you know, public health is a service things that you were talking about, like who is focusing provision organisations, You’ve got Global Guard, on these issues, looking at these kind of issues in the you’ve got PEPFA, all of these relationships are brokered communities? And there are various roles that all of through the state. Our work is not brokered through us have to play, but I think the bottom line, whether the state, so now you can imagine trying to get the it’s funders or donors, whether we’re talking about one organisation to do both things. One minute they allies and between the groups themselves, if we

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers are sitting there in a global fund, and the next thing and we are all working towards HIV and Aids. Because they are going out challenging government. So the public health is quite clear about what it’s objectives are, public health organisations were actually upset that you know? And it’s correct. Public health needs to eradicate we had dared to challenge government, because that them, probably whether they are dealing with Ebola, or jeopardises the work that it is doing, and that’s why the whether they are dealing with HIV. But public health cannot work that we’re doing now, we’re calling it Killing Two how far it’s able to engage with human rights in order to Birds with One Stone, because it’s not possible. achieve, so human rights came in as a do no harm. Do not quarantine people. Do not do this. But the public health But we are not able to name the things that make our community is not going to go all the way to confront a work difficult. So it’s like we can all say all the human government that is violating rights, right? rights people are working with the public health people ❞

FOR ME ACCOUNTABILITY IS STANDING UP FOR ALL HUMAN RIGHTS. NOT THINKING THAT SOME PEOPLE DESERVE HUMAN RIGHTS AND THEN OTHERS DO NOT.

www.accountability.international 19 ensuring that the policies are specific and targeted in ❝ For me accountability is standing up for all terms of maybe HIV, there are less deaths, for example Human Rights. Not thinking that some people deserve that everyone within the policies, HIV policies, are Human Rights and then others do not. I get so angry… targeted, their specific needs are met. That for me (indistinct 0:33:08) just recently, first UN assembly. is a contributory, you get the medicines, you get the This turn in those places, they ratify to Human Rights prevention methods, you get the commodities, there’s mechanism and policies and said the Human Rights no stigma and discrimination in how it’s kept. situation is better in their country. Governments, members of Parliament, Human Rights organizations, So that responsibility that government has, that especially international Human Rights organizations. responsibility that religious leaders and church have And then they come back on the ground and things are about ensuring that we, as members of their churches, different. Like, Human Rights should not be selective. we get medications, they don’t pretend that they can cure us from Aids, that support, supporting the person There is no partial Human Rights. There is Human with HIV. And welcoming everybody whether they are Rights or no Human Rights. So, as long as you’re giving LGB, MSN, Q, whatever. partial Human Rights, you’re abusing Human Rights, because I either have them or I don’t. And they are So for me that’s accountability, it starts right from going to put their hands on a Bill that criminalizes communities to political leaders, that responsibility same sex relationships, with seven years in prison, and ensuring that trans persons get safety, get homes, on a Bill that says doctors should abuse the privacy it’s cheap, you know the whole aspect of it. That they of their HIV patients by releasing HIV results when are taking every [unclear] for free, which I think I believe they’re asked for by government. they should be for free, easily accessible! ❞ Are they going to criminalize their members of Parliament who are dealing with HIV? Why would they criminalize someone for their HIV status and do they even understand how people get HIV? Do they think that criminalizing HIV is going to stop HIV from spreading? It’s going to increase, because now people are going to hide.

People are going to hide and stop taking medication(indistinct 0:35:33) it’s going to increase the record of HIV, but also going to increase AIDS related deaths. What happens to women that are affected by all these (Indistinct 0:35:50) that have been criminalized? What happens if you are unable to carry on living with HIV? Meaning you first…you’ve done prison time? ❞ ❝ For me accountability is … the concept… around our problems, that speaks to our coding, our fellow man’s dignity, our fellow man’s respect, ensuring that the laws protect the person better than criminalising individuals,

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers are community driven people. You can tell, if (indistinct 0:21:27) order. Yes, it’s because they actually behave that way.

You will see them…if they talk about government they will think about their children’s children you know, and you will be like “What, you don’t even know if your child wants to have a baby.” It doesn’t matter, I’ll play my part. If they want, they can. I’ve had (indistinct 0:21:53) about Africa…the sexuality (indistinct 0:21:54) they need to go and sit down, dig, dig and write their part. Politicians… we need to do lobbying.

There are many LGBT people with parents working in government, in parliament or people who even have a boyfriend or (indistinct 0:22:11). They need to play their part with people. When laws are to be passed, they need to play their part even if it won’t be successful, they need to do something. Let’s take Nigeria or we can take…which country was it where they stopped HIV medication? It has to show to the world that it can find a way to provide to its brothers and sisters and be there for them. This is what we need.

Everybody there is accountable. Accountability is playing your part, because you benefit. When they want sex, go Roles and look for those young boys or other girls, they don’t drive Responsibilities five hours, six hours to a conference in Europe and wait for you know, “When I leave the country I’m going to ❝ First of all, any black person who is part of have sex.” No, they…sorry, it’s about playing your part, the community needs to play their part. We need for me being accountable. to…no matter where you are you are a part of a ❞ something or whatever…if you are an academic write, write something, write, do some research about the community, do some research linked to FIRST OF ALL, ANY BLACK PERSON WHO IS PART the LGBT community. OF THE COMMUNITY NEEDS TO PLAY THEIR PART. WE NEED TO…NO MATTER WHERE YOU We all have to play our part. I think how white ARE YOU ARE A PART OF A SOMETHING OR people make it better. You know, we talk about WHATEVER…IF YOU ARE AN ACADEMIC WRITE, being black and being focusing on family, we are a WRITE SOMETHING, WRITE, DO SOME RESEARCH community, but we are so selfish to some extent. ABOUT THE COMMUNITY, DO SOME RESEARCH So self-focused and this is the reality. I’ve lived in LINKED TO THE LGBT COMMUNITY. Europe now for sixteen years. One thing I know, they actually are community driven people. They

www.accountability.international 21 I’m not able to accept, but I think at school that is Where Does Change where we need to start from for people to learn Happen? about these issues. ❞ ❝ Yes. I think one of my most interests lies on ❝ We all know that knowing someone, having the national curriculum development. If it change the a friend or family member who is LGBT makes you minds of the kids who are still at school, you change more likely to accept sexual and gender diversity. It’s the minds of the teachers, because they are the because of this that visibility of LGBTQGNC Africans is people that spend most of the time with the children. key to progressing human rights here. But visibility is I think that is my main interests, my main individual not the only tactic we need to be using, we need to interests, to say this are the people that would help to empowering LGBT Africans in very tangible ways, in change issues around accountability, because that is pragmatic ways. We need to be providing them with where acceptance come from. jobs in the private sector, in embassies across Africa for example so that we can give them the financial So, if a student is supported by other students … I autonomy they require. mean, it also helps to build your own credibility as an individual to say this is me. You are able to advocate If LGBT Africans get more employment, they will be able for yourself if you have a strong kind of support to look after their own health, housing, education and system, and a support system, much as our families, advance the movement in a sustainable way. ❞

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers The Opposition’s Tactics So we need to be very strategic in the road with the limited resources that we have, and I find that there are lots of LGBTIQ persons who see themselves as victims. ❝ Let me tell you what. At the UN levels, there’s a very conservative group of people who And empowering them to a level where they feel are promoting this model of family based from confident enough to relate at all levels, that’s going to the dark ages. take a bit of work. ❞ They are very organised, they speak in one voice, they are everywhere. You go to a meeting on WASH, Water and Sanitation, they are there.

You go to a meeting on Sanitation or something else, they are everywhere. When are we going to reach that point, where I know for a fact that if I’m in an HIV meeting, there is someone else who is at the gender inequality meeting, and there’s someone else who is at the SRHR meeting?

www.accountability.international 23 Accountability as LGBT make this request. And I think, by even auditing, the work that we do and ensuring that people have Organisations a clear picture…there is transparency in the work that is done. ❝ My immediate thought of accountability is that, you know, those who have the responsibility There is opportunities for people a grassroot need to be, you know, formally accountable to the or intermediary or at the founding side to also constituency. It’s a two-way thing. contribute towards the appraisal of the project.

If, for example, XXX (Identified removed) if funded, we Yeah, so, for me that is extremely important are not just accountable to those who fund us, we’re also and crucial auditing the project over a period of accountable to those we serve. That’s it. We need to be time. able to account for the resources, you know, that have ❞ been in our domain, that has been part of that. And I think that also means a respect for policy, management and ensuring there is pattern of communication, that is both sustainable and respectable. So, for me, I think that the issues here is ensuring that there is always access, you know, to the organization when people want to

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers Accountability to I don’t know if collapse, or where people just land in nicely. So I think that way then you would say you have LGBTIQGNC Diverse an accountable system. Africans? And also this thing where something can be done about people that transgress the rights of LGBTIQ, where the Accountability... Wow. I think it would look ❝ rights of LGBTIQ people are as important as the rights like what we have now where people are more of heterosexual, or anybody else. Something like that accommodating, people are more accepting, would indicate some sense of accountability. people are more, I don’t want to say tolerant, ❞ but yes, people are more tolerant, people can co- exist and people are concerned about the rights of LGBTI.

And also your situation with the government as well, shows concern and interest and caring, if you like, for the LGBTIQ community.

And also a situation where there’s interaction between organisations where you get actually,

www.accountability.international 25 that I should be able to bring someone just like XXX (identifier removed) was able to invite a partner and he asked me and I told him [unclear 0:40:17] and fortunately the teacher who brought [unclear 0:40:24] why do these workshops spend lots of money and give people what they already have and invite people who know nothing about it. I should be able to bring ten people, I should be able to bring twenty people to these workshops and then if you teach one person one person will take education to the next person just like that.

I would like to see a better attitude from those working on LGBT matters to the so called divisions or splits that occur. I want to see more diversity in the movement. I would like to see funding partners and activists diversify more into new areas of work.

I am excited to think that one day I could read about an NGO in Zambia that focusses on cancer for lesbian women only. That’s not schisms, that activists following their passions, and providing the community with much needed services, and the funders supporting it. I don’t see the schisms as organisations split as a negative thing, I see it as a To Do List sign of growth and diversification. A sign that one day the LGBTIQGNC population will I think what’s important still remains for me ❝ get all the services required. I can’t wait for the day sensitising people, writing papers, and I know it’s not that we have that much diversity in our movement. enough to write. You can, I suppose, to those issues. It will mean we have succeeded. Embrace it, don’t Creating networks of researchers that are working on let it divide us. those areas, and also getting people on board, getting ❞ others to share the load or share the work.

I was saying when you provide funding consider projects that have to do with education and let it not be education to the LGBTIQ because they already know, but public education to those who do not know it’s just humans that are diverse it’s not just what you know I mean what you see it’s diverse.

If you can fund projects of that nature maybe there will be a difference… Let’s invite people who have never been there, let’s invite people who know nothing about

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers We provide technical advice in many spaces, and About Us yet remain committed to ensuring that our spaces, communications and products are all highly accessible Accountability International is an African-led to all people. We play a watchdog role and work to civil society organisation that works to improve enhance the capacity of other civil society actors to also accountability to the most marginalised. At AI, we take up their role as watchdogs, for sustainable, resilient conduct research and advocacy that allows us to do and inclusive human rights for all. our work as a watchdog and hold various leaders accountable. We use the Participatory Action Research (PAR) model, a best practice in which communities co- develop and We conceptualise and implement innovatively lead the methodology, development of research tools, designed projects that are led by our collaboration conduct the research and produce the final analysis & with marginalised communities. We put huge context-specific and advocacy-focused reports. emphasis on needs-based research and community-led advocacy. We have developed more Partnerships are a fundamental element in our than a dozen scorecards since we began in 2005, work. Over the years, we have developed excellent all as a means to contribute to the demand for partnerships with hundreds of organisations, from accountability from all leaders, whether at global, major implementing partners to community-based regional, national or community level. organisations with national or local bases.

www.accountability.international 27 What Does It Mean to be Creative Commons

Accountable? Accountability International follows the recommendations provided by Creative Commons Accountability International promised anonymity to (creativecommons.org) to stimulate and facilitate every interviewee so that they could speak freely and the dissemination of the ratings and other tools safely. Identifiers have been removed. Please do not we develop. Therefore, Accountability International contact AI asking for respondents names, we will not under this license gives you the right to remix, provide them. tweak, and build upon our work non-commercially; as long as you credit us and that you license your Accountability International values diversity of new creations under the identical terms. marginalised communities, and the agency of persons to identify themselves. To this end, Accountability Others can download and redistribute this work International, in consideration of the above, wlll just like the by-nc-nd license, but they can also respect the request for anonymity and non-attribution translate, make remixes, and produce new stories as requested by those interviewed. Accountability based on our work. All new work based on ours will International wishes to appreciate them for contributing carry the same license, so any derivatives will also to this as well. be non-commercial in nature.

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers Notes

______

www.accountability.international 29 Cape Town Secretariat 54 Shortmarket Street Greenmarket Square Cape Town South Africa 8000

Stockholm Administration Office Impact Hub, Luntmakarsgatan 25; 111 37 Stockholm Sweden

Brussels Research & Communications Office Rue l’Arbre Benit 44 Bruxelles Belgium 1050

Email: [email protected]

Accountability International / Chatting with Destabilisers www.accountability.international 31 WWW.ACCOUNTABILITY.INTERNATIONAL