Through the Lens: The Experience of a Vietnamese Photojournalist During the Vietnam War
M. Goeke Nick Ut
February 11, 2014
Table of Contents
Interviewer Release Form…………………………………………………………….…2
Interviewee Release Form…………………………………………………………….…3
Statement of Purpose…………………………………………………………………….4
Biography………………………………………………………………………………..5
Historical Contextualization Paper………………………………………………………7
Interview Transcription…………………………………………………………………20
Time Index Log…………………………………………………………………………28
Works Consulted………………………………………………………………………..64
Appendix………………………………………………………………………………..67
Statement of Purpose
The purpose of this project is to display the influential role photography played during the Vietnam War from 1956 – 1975. The interview with Nick Ut provides a first- hand and exceptional perspective of a Vietnamese photojournalist struggling with the surroundings of despair, tragedy, and death while undertaking the pressures to create a photograph that had the power to end the war. Furthermore, this interview will allow students to compare and contrast the opinions on the outcomes of the Vietnam War.
Biography
Huỳnh Công Út, more commonly known as Nick Ut was born in Long An,
Vietnam on March 29th of 1951. Throughout his life, he has lived in several places because of the job he has had with Associated Press for forty-eight years, including
Tokyo, South Korea, Hanoi, Vietnam, and Los Angeles, where he resides today. Huynh
Thanh My, his brother and another AP photographer, was killed in 1965 on assignment in
Vietnam. Soon thereafter Nick Ut asked for a job and became a photographer at the age of sixteen in 1966. He has been working for Associated Press ever since then.
Nick Ut is known for his photograph taken on June 8th, 1972 during the Vietnam
War, “Napalm Girl” depicting a young naked girl screaming on Route 1 with a bomb dropping in the background. While that is his most famous photo so far, he has also been sent on assignments for politics, sports, fires, prisons and more. At the age of nineteen, he won the 1973 Pulitzer Prize for “Napalm Girl.” Not only did Nick Ut save Kim Phuc’s life (the girl in the photo), but he also visits her in Toronto from time to time and keeps in touch. During the interview he said, “If I run, I don’t take good picture.” Fear can
paralyze those who are not strong enough to face reality, whereas Nick Ut was able to overcome such terrors and be a hero to Kim Phuc and all the other lives lost during the war.
Photojournalism and the “Napalm Girl”: Historical
Contextualization
According to the documentary video, “The Napalm Girl,” a photograph is “A frozen moment that allows us to immerse ourselves in that split second, we can study it, live it, and feel it. A split second where everything comes to a halt.” (Documentary
Video) That moment in time can signify Justin Bieber’s middle finger to the press, Janet
Jackson’s breast exposure, or the terrors of war through something as simple as a photograph. From the invention of the first Kodak Camera in 1888, allowing historical events to be recorded on the spot in permanent form for the first time, to today's digital iPhone, photography's role in modern life cannot be understated. This is due to the profound impact it has on communication and information management.
Therefore, in order to fully understand the events of the Vietnam War, it is important to examine the major impact photography had on those around the world, specifically at home in the United States.
Photojournalists use the art of photography to stimulate the curiosity of the public: to show events people would not ordinarily see, to visit places people would not normally go, and to explain the enormously complicated viewpoints of the world. Every image people see has an impact on them, whether we are conscious of it or not. In order to truly understand the importance of photos, one must understand that behind each of those images lies the photojournalist's bravery to display the tragic, detrimental, and even jovial events of the world, not for personal fame, but instead to inform and captivate humanity.
In the 1890s news was still widely spread through drawings. Some of these drawings were created through the halftone process – a reproduction of a photograph in ink. Throughout the year of 1891 there were 1,000 artists turning out more than 10,000 drawings per week for the press. (Photojournalism 16) Yet, the creation of halftones did not sweep through journalism. Publishers felt their readers would consider halftone a poor substitute for hand art. It was not until 1898, when the battleship Maine exploded in
Havana harbor that newspapers offered halftones made from the photographs themselves.
By 1910 the press embraced halftones as a form of media. Both the sinking of the Titanic in 1912 and the arrival of American troops in Europe in 1917 were two of the many great events viewed by halftones on the front page. (Photojournalism 16)
As time went on, people became aware of the fact that photography had the potential to be the most peaceful yet lethal action against the extreme agony experienced throughout the world. Dating back to the early 1900s people found “the photograph, that little rectangle, (to be) one of the damnedest educational devices that was ever made” (Roy Stryker). At the turn of the century, progressive investigate journalists in the United States, entitled muckrakers, exposed the seamy side of American life by “raking up the muck.” Muckrakers believed the public deserved to be aware of the suffering around them. In order to accomplish this, many muckrakers, such as Lewis
Hine and Jacob Riis used photography as a medium to expose the abuse, corruption, and danger in the nation.
Photography allowed the world to see and recognize events occurring in another home, state, or country, and quickly. Rapid circulation of news through photography and few words began especially with tabloids created in 1910 to 1930. “In that photographic
reality in journalism translates to credibility, it is an essential ingredient of any mainstream American journalistic enterprise.” (Tomlinson 1) Illustrated Daily News, later renamed to Daily News, made its appearance in 1919. By 1924, it had the largest circulation of any United States newspaper. (Photojournalism 17) The format of the paper was a word-and-picture tabloid designed to illustrate stories on marital problems, crime news and sex. Later in the 1920s, the New York Evening Graphic contributed to photojournalistic history with composograph: a fake picture created by layering many photographs. In that day and age, tabloids would take extreme risks just to shock the public.
In the 1930s America faced its worst Depression resulting from a devastating market crash in 1929. In 1933 Franklin Roosevelt commented on the current state of the nation, saying: “So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself – nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed effort to convert retreat into advance.” (Inaugural Address) The idea behind this statement was to inspire people to gain confidence and change the current state of the nation. Photojournalists dealt with the idea of overcoming fear often because they took risks that may have been illegal, unjust, or dangerous. During this era, Dorothea Lange and Walker Evans were two of the photojournalists who captured the struggle, hurt, and despair citizens felt. Through their photographs, “urban America was made poignantly and painfully aware of a serious imbalance in United States society.” (Life Time)
Therefore those who were not struggling at this time period were forced to see the terrible quality of life others around them were dealing with.
Another form of photojournalism came in 1960 with Italian sneak photography, also known as paparazzi. As Federico Fellini explains, “It suggested a buzzing, stinging, annoying sort of insect.” (Photojournalism 18) One technique paparazzi employed included surrounding a celebrity, setting off flashbulbs in the celebrity’s face and otherwise harassing the person until the target actually hit one of the tormentors. The photographer then documented the provoked assault the next day. Italian magazines and newspapers would pay as little as five dollars for a straightforward portrait of a famous person, whereas for photographs of a celebrity on the rampage, they would pay up to five hundred dollars. (Photojournalism 19) Although the paparazzi were not well-intended, they still felt it was necessary for the public to be aware of the events happening.
Photography allowed war photojournalists to envision justice through their work by revealing the shocks and reality of conflict. “Great news photos distill the confused brew of human affairs. They extract from a war the one moment that speaks for all horrors of all battles.” (Time Life) From as early as the Civil War, photographers
Timothy O’Sullivan, Roger Fenton, Mathew Brady, and Alexander Gardner had such documentary power to photograph the military life during war. Most striking are their inhumanely objective images of combat death. “The gross material fact of millions of death in war can be brought into focus only by studying how photographs are used as evidence.” (Taylor 159) Unlike paintings, drawings, and sculptures, photography is the only form of art that can be used as objective evidence for an event. “That a photograph can stand as evidence rests not on a natural or existential fact but on a social, historical process.” (Taylor 159) To capture a moment in war, it had to be done quickly. “The ingredients of photography are fine craftsmanship, the courage of the photographer and
the high level of skill required to capture a unique moment, not a second too late or too early.” (Roskis 3) While taking a photograph of a town, family, or object is easy, photojournalists put their lives in danger to convey the truth to the world.
During the Vietnam War iconic photographs were needed to represent significant historical events and to convey objects of strong emotional identification or response.
“And this was in an era when photographers still focused by hand, calculated exposure, adjusted aperture and shutter speed and shot unforgiving slide film, trying to remember myriad variables in the midst of smoke, noise, adrenaline and flying shrapnel.” (Kamber
1) Conflict from 1954 to 1975 in Vietnam began with the desire of communist North
Vietnam to unify the entire country under a single communist regime after they defeated the French colonial administration of Vietnam in 1954. Meanwhile, the South
Vietnamese government fought to preserve a country more aligned with the West. By
1969 about 500,000 U.S. military personnel were stationed in Vietnam; whereas, North
Vietnam was supported by communist rebels from South Vietnam, the Vietcong, the
Soviet Union and China. (Herring)
In September of 1945 the Vietminh, a communist influenced independence movement led by Ho Chi Minh, issued a declaration of independence. Then began the first Indochina War, a conflict between the Vietminh and the French that would last for eight years. The Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954 was the final battle between the
Vietminh and French in Indochina that brought the end to French colonialism in Asia.
For eight years the French had been fighting the Vietminh to keep their colony in
Southeast Asia, but their defeat at Dien Bien Phu finally convinced the French to leave
Indochina in July of 1954. (Hutchinson 2011) Vo Nguyen Giap, general in the Vietnam
People’s Army stated, “Nothing is more precious than independence and freedom.”
According to Giap, a few days after the battle, Ho Chi Minh told him, “You will still have to fight the Americans.” (Stocking) Although the Vietnamese nationalists successfully drove out the French, the war had increasingly become an issue of wider international significance.
In 1960 the National Liberation Front formed in Hanoi, known as the Viet Cong in the South. The movement’s principal objectives were to overthrow the South
Vietnamese government and to reunite Vietnam. (Herring) “Vietcong Communist rebels have been terrorizing South Viet-Nam’s southern provinces, the central areas and recently the high plateau regions.” (Washington Post) Members resorted to assassinations of South Vietnamese government officials, sabotage, and other terrorist acts throughout the early 1960s. To display the power and change the Viet Cong brought to South
Vietnam, “In the 2561 villages of South Vietnam, the NLF create a host of nation-wide socio-political organizations in a country where mass organizations…were virtually nonexistent…Aside from the NLF there had never been a truly mass-based political party in South Vietnam.” (Pike) With this in mind, the NLF was very influential because it did not have another group like itself to fight against.
While there were optimistic reports by the military, others felt the situation in
Vietnam was not stable. In a letter to the Secretary of State on September 11th, 1963
Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge stated his estimate of the general situation in South
Vietnam, “My best estimate of the current situation in Vietnam is: That it is worsening rapidly.” (Young 65) Soon after his statement, The Gulf of Tonkin Incident in August of
1964 triggered U.S. entry into the war. Two U.S. destroyers were reported fired on by
North Vietnamese torpedo boats. It was unclear whether hostile shots were actually fired, but the reported attack was taken as a pretext for making air raids against North Vietnam.
(Hutchinson) On August 7th the U.S. Congress passed the Tonkin Gulf resolution, forming the basis for the considerable increase in U.S. military involvement in the
Vietnam War. This provided President Johnson with authority for executive action:
“Congress approves and supports the determination of the President, as Commander in
Chief, to take all necessary measures to repeal any armed attack against the forces of the
United States and to prevent any further aggression.” (Joint Resolution 1964) As a result,
President Johnson and President Nixon relied on the resolution as the legal basis for their military policies in Vietnam. Commentary on the U.S. position in Vietnam included,
Senator Richard Russell, who had a conversation with President Johnson on June 11th,
1964 and admitted, “We’re just like a damn cow over a fence out there in Vietnam.”
(Young 71) In August of 1964 Ambassador Maxwell D. Taylor agreed that “something must be added in the coming month” to forestall “a collapse of national morale” in
Saigon. After the resolution followed the start of concentrated United States bombing of
North Vietnam in 1965.
Operation Rolling Thunder began in 1965, which sent the first United States combat troops to Vietnam in March. By the end of 1967, approximately 500,000 U.S. troops were stationed in South Vietnam. American soldiers began to take a more active role: sabotage, espionage, and Southern Vietnamese attacks on the North. From 1965 to
1968, U.S. planes dropped 800 tons of bombs on North Vietnam every day. This amount was equivalent to three times that which was dropped by all nations in the entire Second
World War. The initial purpose of the bombings was to end the traffic of soldiers and
weapons along the Ho Chi Min Trail, but missions were soon expanded. In the end of the war the U.S. dropped nearly 7 million tons of bombs. While they were only supposed to target Viet Cong military, many actually bombed civilian villages, Buddhist temples, and churches. The vast majority of people killed by the strikes or burned by napalm were village women, children, and elderly. (Compton’s)
The Tet Offensive in 1968 enabled the Viet Cong to briefly occupy Saigon, including the American embassy. Such an attack made it obvious how fragile the position of the United States was in Vietnam and prompted the start of peace talks with the
National Liberation Front. According to Charles Stuart Kennedy, a veteran interviewed about the Vietnam War in a previous Oral History Project, “the Tet Offensive…came as a basic surprise to many of the Americans,” (Kennedy qtd in Hersh 20) which led to the start of demonstrations against the war in America. Dating back to 1964 citizens had started to criticize the war, even young men eligible for the draft began to burn their draft cards in protest. Many draftees, including Muhammad Ali, refused to report for service when called. War protests became commonplace throughout the United States, especially on college campuses. (Compton’s) In a previous Oral History Project when asked
America’s opinion on the Vietnam War, veteran Clarence Carpenter said, “I think everyone thought it was then a good thing because we were fighting communism and all that good stuff and…(I agreed) until I got there. Then I’d seen it was all just a bunch of bull.” (Carpenter qtd in 21 Smothers) John T. McNaughton, Assistant Secretary of
Defense for International Security Affairs, outlined the provocation plan “to provide good grounds for us to escalate if we wished.” (New York Times June 14, 1971) Such actions included South Vietnamese air strike on Laos infiltration routes, coastal raids on the
North, and the resumption of U.S. destroyer patrols in Gulf of Tonkin. William P. Bundy stated, “to assist morale…and show the Communists we still mean business.” (New York
Times June 14, 1971) There was constant speculation pertaining to the Vietnam War that influenced the people at home, the Pentagon Papers only helped support their disapproval.
Later on in 1971, the Pentagon Papers further strengthened opposition towards the war. A Times reporter had obtained the study from Daniel Ellsberg, a former Pentagon and State Department official who had secretly copied the 7,000 page report. (New York
Times June 19, 1976) The Pentagon Papers was a result from a secret study of the war by the Defensive Department pertaining to the years 1945 to 1968. Daniel Ellsberg commented on the topic, “Nixon’s clearly announced and demonstrated strategy entails not only prolonging but vastly expanding this immortal, illegal and unconstitutional war.”
(New York Times June 19, 1971) The Pentagon Papers contained excerpts of reports on the Vietnam War, which exposed lies told by the Unites States government to the
American people concerning its intentions in Vietnam. Some key findings included the facts the U.S. government had refused to seek the help of allies in fighting the Vietnam
War, overpaid private contractors for war supplies, rejected negotiations with the enemy, and mislead the American public about the origins of the war. At first President Nixon took no immediate action because the disclosures would be more damaging to the reputations of his Democratic predecessors in the White House than to him. (Adam) The study portrayed the fact that over the years the federal government had mislead the public pertaining to the reasons for the war and the effectiveness of the war effort. “To believe that Nixon really means what he says and does, or to fail to resist his policy, is to become
an accomplice,” wrote Daniel Ellsberg. (New York Times June 19, 1971) These articles and Nixon’s later efforts to stop Time from publishing more would lead to one of the most important First Amendment cases in American history. In order to stop further publication the Nixon administration stated that it would raise the financial cost of the war, imperil the release of prisoners, cause Americans to lose faith, and further the aims of antiwar protesters. (Adam)
By 1973 President Nixon was in no position to influence events in Vietnam. The abuses of power he authorized to reduce domestic opposition to his Vietnam War policies and facilitate his reelection led to the Watergate scandals that paralyzed his presidency and eventually forced his resignation. Following his presidency, his successor Gerald
Ford did little when the North Vietnamese invaded South Vietnam in 1974 to 1975.
(Adam) On January 18th, 1973 The Washington Post stated: “What the Vietnamese got for their efforts and their suffering is a poor and struggling country, run by an inept, autocratic and corrupt government, still threatened by a Communist takeover.”
(Washington Post, Lippman) Although Americans felt this way, no major actions were taken to stop the Communist invasion.
Historians began to study the war once the northern communist forces seized control of South Vietnam by crashing their tanks into the gates of Saigon’s presidential palace on April 30th, 1975, which resulted in the end of the war. “From 1964 to 1972, the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the history of the world made a maximum military effort…to defeat a nationalist revolutionary movement in a tiny peasant country
– and failed.” (Zinn 347) The Vietnam War was one of the many wars where imperialistic characteristics were displayed from the U.S. The U.S. intended to extend
their power and influence through diplomacy and military force. After the U.S. felt they could barge into another country, it was obvious their power over others was not enough,
“When the United States fought in Vietnam, it was organized modern technology versus organized human beings, and the human beings won.” (Zinn 347) While the U.S. was obviously more advanced, the unity of the people was not as strong. Over the course of the war the U.S. actually developed the “greatest antiwar movement the nation had ever experienced…that played a critical part in bringing the war to an end.” (Zinn 347) With all this in mind, many historians believed it was impossible to continue their role in
Vietnam.
During the war, media undertook a significant role in influencing the opinions of
U.S. citizens through the images on TV screens and newspapers. The reason for this was because it was the first war that allowed full freedom to the press, allowing media to cover the war exactly how they viewed it. The tragic images went so far that
Representative Richard Ichord suggested to censor the Vietnam War and said, “the country simply cannot afford distorted, biased, inaccurate, incomplete or irresponsible war news coverage.” (Censorship May Be Needed in Viet War Coverage) While photojournalists were obviously in support of the freedom, others felt it was unnecessary to bring such gruesome and tragic images back home.
Nick Ut’s, formally known as Ut Cong Huynh, famous photograph called
“Napalm Girl” appeared in newspapers during the last years of the Vietnam War. It
“shocked the world and still stands as one of the war’s central icons.” (Miller 1) Prior to the accidental Napalm aerial attack by South Vietnamese Forces, displayed in the background of his photo, there had been heavy fighting between the North and South
Vietnamese due to the North’s efforts to over take the small village of Tráng Bàng. At the time of the photo, Viet Cong and North Vietnamese had locked down Highway One outside of the village for three or four days. (Associated Press) As Nick Ut stated in a previous interview, “There was a lot of smoke and a lot of noise. Boom boom boom. All the time.” (Document Video) A plane then dropped two bombs. The second one, an A-1
Skyraider, poured napalm.
Soon thereafter children ran in terror and screamed for help, including Kim Phuc
(the naked girl in the photo) waling “Too hot! Too hot!” (Associated Press) She was a victim of a mistakenly pelted bomb of burning Napalm, and the clothing and skin on her back were completely burned off. It burned through the skin layers on her back, leaving scars. “The threads of her cotton clothes evaporated on contact. Trees became angry torches. Searing pain bit through skin and muscle.” (Associated Press) Thirty percent of her body was scorched by third degree burns and had to go through seventeen painful skin surgeries through the time period of thirteen months. Kim Phuc described the experiences she endured at the hospital, “Every morning at eight o’clock, the nurses put me in the burn bath to cut all my dead skin off. I just cried and when I could not stand it any longer, I just passed out.” Nick Ut took tons of photos surrounding the event, but captured the horrific moment in “The Terror of War,” better known as “Napalm Girl”.
Despite the photo’s potentially powerful message to the world, the editors of
Associated Press in Saigon first decided it was inappropriate because of the nudity displayed by the young girl. Editor Horst Faas recognized that the news value far outweighed any of the strict rules about nudity as soon as he viewed the photo. The photo was printed in newspapers and magazines around the world, including Newsweek and
The Press Democrat. (Documentary Video) The photo created such outrage against the
Vietnam War resulting from his photo that forced the world to finally view the innocent victims of the war. After seeing the devastating photograph at a young age as an Asian girl, Tamlyn Tomita described it as, “her face was a gape in terror and fear and udder horror.” (Documentary Video)
In 2002 White House tapes were released that had President Nixon wondering to
H.R. Haldeman about whether the “napalm thing…was a fix.” (Ahlers) Not only is such a remark unintelligible but also completely disrespectful to the bravery Nick Ut displayed by taking an assignment in the Vietnam War solely to serve the public’s interests and to
Kim Phuc who has ever-lasting proof on her body from the horrific event. President
Nixon was not present on Highway 1 during the horrific and accidental droppings of
Napalm bombs and most likely was not aware of the passion Nick Ut felt to take a photo that would end the war. In previous interviews Nick Ut has stated, “My brother hated the war. He’d say, ‘I want to make a picture someday to stop the war.’” (Associated Press)
His older brother, Huynh Thanh My, who was Ut’s idol and mentor, was killed in combat with that goal in mind. Nick Ut fought, with photography as his only weapon, for his family, country, and all those who were killed in the Vietnam War.
Nick Ut won the 1973 Pulitzer Prize for the photo and on the 40th anniversary of the Prize, he became the third person inducted by the Leica Hall of Fame for his contributions for his photojournalism. He changed how the Vietnam War was viewed from then on. (Associated Press) It is remembered as one of the most iconic, horrific and powerful images of the twentieth century. “It communicated the horrors of the Vietnam
War in a way words could never describe, helping to end one of the most divisive wars in
American history.” (Associated Press)
Interview Transcription
Interviewee/Narrator: Nick Ut Interviewer: Meryl Goeke Location: Associated Press, Los Angeles Date: December 30, 2013
Meryl Goeke: This is Meryl Goeke and I’m interviewing Nick Ut as a part of the
American Century Oral History Project. Interview took place on December 30th at 7:42.
So let’s start with your childhood. What was your childhood like?
Nick Ut: Photographer for journalist and I been here at AP now in LA over 30 year, after
Vietnam War.
MG: What is your educational background?
NU: You know I start very young photographer after my brother he AP he work here around 1965 then I __ AP so young. I become photographer photojournalist then I've been at my company almost 50 years now, 48 years, next year be 48 year. Only one company.
MG: How long have you lived here?
NU: I lived here after the war in Vietnam in 1975 and I come here then I __ for AP in
Tokyo and Japan for two years then I come back year in 1977 until today.
MG: How would you describe the relationship with your brothers and sisters as a child?
NU: You know I love photographer to my brother he so good photography in Vietnam
War and everyone that live in Vietnam they know my brother and after he work here in
1965 and I you know I wanted to become photographer and I talk to AP but they said too young but they I keep push me them to hire me up because I love my brother then I get his job at 16. I think, I don't think today they hire anyone at sixteen but I'm lucky during
Vietnam War I was the only young man walking into AP.
MG: So did your brother influence you into photography?
NU: Yeah I learned a lot from my brother, but not too much because he so busy I saw him everyday cover the war and he come late and show me little bit his camera and then after he died I learned a lot by myself.
MG: Can you describe the job of a photojournalist in wartime?
NU: Oh a photojournalist very dangerous, I go to war, I travel everyday in Vietnam, I covered Cambodia, Laos, and I covered New York Marine Army almost everyday, sometimes never sleep because a photographer travels like soldier. And I had with me my four cameras and walked a mile with the soldiers but not like walking like you running but bombs by America, by the Vietcong, it’s so dangerous. I got hit three times, I got wounded three times, during Vietnam War.
MG: Where did you get -
NU: And much of photographers and a lot of my friends died, you know, in Vietnam everyone get shot, get hit like me I get shot three times. I got hit by multiple rockets.
MG: Where did you get hit?
NU: I hit my knee, my left arm, my leg but very light, one very dangerous on my stomach and my leg, small one in my leg, I lucky.
MG: What did you think about the Vietnam War?
NU: Vietnam War was a real war, not like Iraq or Afghanistan because the wars you see today war, the war of terrorist, not Vietnam War to fight in __ fighting almost everyday everywhere whole country from Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and you see the bombs, the noise, whole country, everywhere you see black smoke burning and every time I travel I see people die everywhere. Every morning I’d arrive in my car, I’d see people die, a lot dead body, sometime like twenty, thirty. If I go, cover the war, I see 100 people die, you know like Vietcong or __ people, the baby, old people. I cry sometimes, I see so many people die.
MG: Yeah, I would have too.
NU: I took a picture but I cry a lot, I was a young man, you know, I mean my job, you know, working, but I saw people cry, oh my god, I don’t want to see more people die everyday.
MG: I’m sorry.
NU: I’m from Vietnam, and it my country too.
MG: What can you recall about the opinions on the Vietnam War of other photojournalists that you worked with?
NU: You know Vietnam War you see so many pictures.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Many pictures of war, like my picture, the picture like this. (puts finger-gun to his head to represent photo) Eddie Adams, my good friend, we worked together. Eddie like my brother. And he lived in New York. He passed away over seven years ago. I see him one day before he died, no like one week before he died because he want to see me. We good friends. I don’t want him to die in my eye and I left and his wife called me say,
“Nicky, Eddie passed away.” We very good. I think in Vietnam only two the best pictures were my picture and him picture, you know.
MG: I’ve seen it.
NU: We both talk a lot about war in Vietnam, we don’t care any picture what two pictures and the picture of monk, the three of us. We all same company, Malcom
Browne, Eddie Adams and my picture. Picture of the monk burning and Eddie, get shot, and napalm.
MG: I have the photos, I’m going to ask you about them later.
NU: Yeah.
MG: I know you have been asked this a lot of times, but can you describe the “Napalm
Girl” incident to me in your own words?
NU: The napalm?
MG: Yeah.
NU: You know that happened that day, June eighth, 1972. I covered almost everyday almost different assignment and before I go to village, a friend of mine told me a big story she said, “Nicky, why didn’t go to the village?” I say, “What happened there?” She said, “Vietcong locked down Highway 1.” And I say, “Oh” and I go and take a look, I
been there like Saturday morning and it shot a thousand hundred of Vietnamese refugees running on the highway. And the bomb, black smoke everywhere. I _+ I almost see them everyday I cover we never think that they had rubber napalm and they spent a couple hours shooting a lot and dead bodies, soldiers. And I walk with the soldiers like mine, then I come back on the highway, I said, “hey not _.” Then I saw the black smoke again,
I told a friend of mine, “Maybe my last picture before I go back to Saigon.” Then I look at _ I saw the one of Vietnamese soldier throw a smoke grenade, you know like _ bomb and the smoke coming up yellow and I hear noise, it’s the one airplane diving, lot of far bomb _ bomb and bomb explosion very heavy then I took a lot of picture of the bomb then I like over minutes, another one dive and drop four napalm. We don’t know napalm in us, I never saw too close Saigon in napalm. I said “Oh my god.” I still only 100 yards away and bomb explosion right in my eye. I yelled and saw oh that very close, my hand so hot because stand too close. Then I don’t believe anyone in village because they all left the town already, then I hold my camera keep looking the black smoke I saw four or five people running, I yelled, “Oh my god people still in there!” I photoshot a woman, she wounded her left leg and with it she hold a baby and with a couple ?dogs? run with her and some of the children they yelled and they called, “Help me! Help me!” Then after that, I saw the grandmother, she open big mouth, she carry little boy, 1 year old and she running and called “Help me! Help me!” and she stopped right at the photographers and there a lot of media there and me too. And she stop a moment and she look her baby and her baby died right in my camera when I snapshot her baby died right in the camera. You could see the harsh skin come up, that her, Kim Phuc niece, her whole family like 3 children die. Then I when I shot the baby die, then I saw another two people carry the
body the kid, another woman carried a boy, her hair burning but he die like year later and after few minutes then I look at smoke and I took a picture of boy dying and I look my camera view finder I saw a little girl put her arms like this (spreads his arms out to show the motion of the girl), she running naked, no clothes. I look and say, “Why she got no clothes?” And running _+ keep shooting her a lot of picture, when she running I looked at her body, skin come off a lot. I know she be die. Then I stop take picture of her because I shot a lot of picture, I don’t want to take more picture, I know she die. I had water, I carried big can of water like soldier. I put water on her arm and body and she screams and she, “No, no, no. Please.” Because the _ of water basically could kill her.
MG: Yeah, it makes it worse.
NU: Yeah, then her uncle, you know, I shot the man stand there like _+. Then the man told me about, “Please help all the children, take all the hospital.” My car parked there, I had a van with my driver.
MG: Mhm.
NU: Then, I carried one of the _+ the soldier, with the poncho. Like raincoat.
MG: Yeah.
NU: I cover her body, I don’t want see her naked because a lot of cameras, I don’t want see her naked and I pick her up and take her to my van, I tell all the kids to come in my car. And she cannot sit like that, she had to sit on the floor, like this, because her skin all come off. She scream all the time. I said, “I think she die.” I don’t care if she die in my car but I worry that she die. Then I come to the village, to the hospital, almost like 30, 35 minutes. Then I went, this is a local hospital, very small one but so many people die. And the hospital, not enough the medical, no medicine, anything. Then I call, “Please help all the kids.” They told me, “I’m very sorry, we can not help anymore wounded because we don’t have enough medicine.” And then they asked me to take all the children to Saigon hospital, another hour or two hour ride, I said “Oh my god, she be die.” I don’t know what to do. Then I saw my media pass, I say, “All the kids die, I blame the hospital _.”
They worry about it and then they bring all the kids inside. Then I not doctor, I not a nurse, I just brought them for somebody to help them because I don’t want leave alone the kids in the village. Then when the nurse take all the kids inside the hospital, I’m so happy, I say, “Oh my god, I want somebody to help them.” Then I leave and I told my driver to go back to Saigon with my AP outfit in Saigon. I develop my film, all of my film developed. I no have very good pictures, not good pictures. The chief photographer in Saigon _ dark room and help me develop all the film. Then they see all my pictures, they screaming, “Oh my gosh! Why the picture of the girl have no clothes?” You know, I told them about the napalm story and then we pick up the picture. They _ my picture with
_+ send, we had to wait my boss _+ again, again, almost like hour later. Picture, picture, send from Saigon to Tokyo, Tokyo to New York. We go _+ the war, we going to send
New York the _. Like four telephone lines. We send to Tokyo, the men AP there. New
York almost an hour and New York called the day to receive the picture, the picture was front page, whole world, every world, they review my picture, the napalm from _ and _ and they called New York, they called Saigon right away and say that picture won the best in Vietnam. They never saw that. They call me, I’m so tired,_+ all the different photos. Then my boss asked me to go back to village again next morning, we go back to village next morning, like Saturday morning. We looked for all the people in village, _ smell dead body. Then I stand on Highway One, I saw the woman hold her face like this, running, and an old man run around look for their daughter. _ Kim Phuc’s family, they don’t know her daughter in hospital. Then I took a lot of pictures of him and the mom and the father. I said, “What are you looking for?” He said, “Looking for our daughter,
Kim Phuc.” I said, “Oh my god, your daughter almost die. I found her screaming.” They cry a lot, I told them about. And they took _, good driver took them there to the hospital, to look for her daughter. Then she very lucky, the picture front page of her everywhere and she has the best doctors in the world help her: Japanese, French, German doctors.
Everyone helped Kim. She was in the hospital for almost a year, part of medical, everything. Then after a year she came back to the village, to look for her house, I’m there too. She come back, she always smiling but inside she’s very sad for her. She didn’t want to look at her picture again. And her house was completely destroyed by bomb, nothing, empty. She walked around with her father to look for the house, only a little water, nothing, no tables, no chairs, or anything. I was so sad, anyways, I was happy to see her there. I get a lot _ something to give in America to _+ sending me the book, everything that I bring, I gave to her. I always travel on Highway One because there are a lot of assignments there, then there I stop to see her family there all the time.
MG: Yeah.
NU: And now, almost 50 years, I always go back and stop to see her family. They still have some family there, most of the people are not young anymore. They are old now, they are married and have families. Her brother, in the picture, he’s on the left, he died a couple years ago, I saw him over five years ago then I came back and I had pictures to send to Kim, his sister. Then one day, Kim Phuc called me from Toronto she said, “Uncle
Nick, I think my brother died.” I said, “How did he die?” She said, “We don’t know how he died, maybe heart attack or something.” But I know _+ bomb in napalm, many years
_+ problems too. Then she cried on the phone about her brother. I call her all the time.
Last week she went back to Vietnam with her husband.
MG: Oh wow!
NU: Yeah, she be very _ because her husband, I think the father didn’t feel well. And she wanted to visit her husband _+. I don’t have time to go with her. We planned to go this year then now last minute we had to cancel. We hope next year. After the new year I will go back there again.
MG: When you revisit Vietnam or see the photo again, how do you feel?
NU: You know every time I go on the highway, _ right here, remember. I stand right _, I know my eye, look like I saw everything almost fifty years. This year I went with the
Japanese _, they make a movie about me.
MG: Wow.
NU: And we stood right on the highway, to talk about napalm. And today a lot of tourist people, every_ the war, they always stop by this coffee shop, then in the coffee shop there are more restaurants. They had tv videos about the napalm story and everyone was watching. Her family is very poor, a lot of help on our side.
MG: How is her quality of living now?
NU: She, is always sick. And she’s fifty now, picture’s nice. _+ I remember her birthday like two, couple months ago and I always call to her in Toronto and say hello to her and I visit Toronto to see her family, the father and mother there with her. I like her very much because they always say “Thank you Uncle Nick because you saved my life, my daughter’s life.” But I say, “No, it’s a war, I want to help them anyways.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: I helped a lot of people during the Vietnam War. My job had nothing to do with helping anyone, I’m a journalist, I’ve very busy myself. But you know, I don’t want
people to die right in my eye, I want to help something. I don’t care if I lose my job but I want to help. That’s why so many young journalists love me to day because they want to help like me.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Yeah.
MG: Getting back to the questions, let’s see. Besides the events of the Napalm Girl, what was your most memorable: positive or negative experience in the Vietnam War?
NU: I think that the picture of napalm won the best _ history of the Vietnam War. _+
Remember Watergate, Nixon said the picture isn’t real, the picture lie but I said, “I don’t want to comment because the girl is still alive, she can tell the story.”
MG: Right.
NU: First, we had so much media there. By myself, people think I lie. I have Time magazine, I had UBI, ABCC, _+ TV, everyone there with me.
MG: Right.
NU: And everyone would always _ for me, I don’t have to say nothing. I don’t want to tell people to say “Oh I’m _ or something.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: But my picture, NBC, a friend of mine shot with a video camera saw the bomb drop and everything. The guy standing next to me.
MG: I know.
NU: Is a friend of mine.
MG: What did you first think when you found out that Nixon said that?
NU: Oh when I come back to the United States I was working here, people call me for an interview when I get _+. He had a press conference, I think in Miami, and the people called me about, “Nicky how you think about Watergate? About your story for your picture?” I said, “She still alive today,” she was in Cuba at that time, “we can contact her, let’s see her answer. I don’t want to answer.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: Because the girl is still alive, she tell her story. I remember she told this story _
1972, she was with all the family, the kids, outside the kids were running, jumping, jumping, outside and she looked up at the sky, she saw the bomb coming down. _ bomb coming down, she didn’t see any way she could run and she yelled at all the children that they have to run but the bomb came too slow, then the bomb burned all her clothes. She had to take all her clothes off because there was no way she _+ skin with the clothes because all the flames ruined the body, really. You could see her skin was so bad, her body was burnt like eighty percent. She is very lucky that she’s still alive, no one believes that she’s still alive. She walked right into the napalm, the flames.
MG: Yeah, that’s terrible.
NU: You can see her house is completely gone, I think that if I’m there I’m died. I _+ my body so hot when I took the picture.
MG: It’s scary, definitely.
NU: Everyone after said, “Nicky why you don’t running?” I said, “If I’m running, I don’t make a good picture.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: I _+ we didn’t know. There was a lot of bombs anyways. _+ On Saturday morning I saw the bomb almost for like a couple of hours, the bombing was almost two days but by the last day was the napalm.
MG: Yeah. I have some other questions concerning the photos and then some other ones.
I will show you the photos first. So I’ll start out with this one. This is the one you were talking about. So.
NU: He took that picture, he was the former boss. His name was Malcome Browne.
MG: Yeah.
NU: He died almost a year now. I saw him one week before he passed away, because my boss named _+ German, he passed away and we had a reunion, talk about my former boss. And a week later, _+, his wife called, he died, I didn’t believe it, we just saw him look good.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Then he died.
MG: When you first saw this photo, what were you thinking?
NU: When I saw the picture, I said, “Oh my god , the monk with the gasoline killed himself.” I remember I shot one picture of a monk die, not like this photo, when I was sixteen. And a lot of anti-war people put gas on and kill themselves because they don’t want the war - they were anti-government, anti-America. I remember I took another picture of the monks die in the pagoda, I was only sixteen, I didn’t like to see dead bodies but with the gasoline, it would burn the body so bad. My boss called me, when I wasn’t a photographer yet, I yet begin photography in my company. Then my boss said, “We don’t have photographers here in the office, can _+ to take a picture?” Then I went and saw like a hundred people cry and dead bodies, then I took a picture. The next day I saw my picture front page I said, “Wow. That picture, I make something,” because I want to become a photographer.
MG: Right, you have so much power as a photojournalist.
NU: A lot of power, but those pictures show most powerful.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Yeah.
MG: So The New York Times said, “The U.S. stands behind the South Vietnamese with some 16,000 military and economic aid program running at about $1,000,000 a day,” how did you feel about the U.S. involvement during the time of the Vietnam War?
NU: I think the Vietnam War was a very expensive war. American _ like 100,000 and over _ soldiers in Vietnam War. You see almost like a million, you see American soldiers everywhere, the whole country. And paid a lot of money for bombs, bombs dropped almost everyday. And more bombs in World War II. They disrupt all the village, look at that, they killed mean people, Vietnamese, we both sides, both sides killed mean people.
And we had like over 80,000 Americans, 60,000 Americans died. _+ I think over 60,000.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Yeah.
MG: 58,000 U.S.
NU: 58,000 like _+ soldiers _. And a lot of money went to the war.
MG: Yeah. I have another photo, you’ve probably seen it. Have you seen it?
NU: Yeah, you know most of the pictures of American soldiers from Vietnam, they are
18, 19, all the young soldiers.
MG: He was 20.
NU: They like high school kids.
MG: Yeah.
NU: They go to war, they’re not really not so good soldiers. Some not very good soldier, they’re all there and then they die so young. I _ the Hamburger Hill, I saw all the soldiers, oh my god, they look like babies. They were very young.
MG: Yeah.
NU: It’s like they were sent there to kill themselves.
MG: Yeah, he was in the war for six months and died at twenty.
NU: A lot of young people, 18, 19, there, they died.
MG: How do you feel about the lives lost? Do you feel it was worth it or not?
NU: The war always said, the people die everyday, the American side and the
Vietnamese. Both sides, all sad. Nobody wants to go to war. The Vietnamese, I went back and talked to a lot of Vietnamese soldier today, “You want the war over or you want to continue the war?” They say they’re happy the war is over. No one go to war anymore.
MG: Yeah.
NU: The Vietnamese, I said, “How about anti-America?” They said no, these wars, they were fighting together but they don’t anti anyone. They love America. Today Vietnamese love America, I go back there many times with former American U.S. marine. We talked with them and say, “I’m sorry I killed Vietcong.” Said, “No sorry, if you don’t kill me, I kill you. That’s war.” That’s nothing sorry. But we’re all friends today, we don’t want war anymore. They’re very nice, even American soldiers cry when they hear a
Vietnamese say that. I go back almost every year, this year I think about three times. I go back to _+ and I look for something about war but you can’t find anymore, they destroyed everything. There were a lot of land mines, land minds, the _ land mines. So many children die. I cry a lot because the war was over thirty years but how did they die, and the kid worked as a farmer somewhere in the backyard or there house, and they
stepped on land mine and then they died. You know, I took a picture, the family, they have four children, 4, 5, 6, 7 like that. And they pick up _+ like baseball, of course it’s
CBU bomb, they play like baseball, they throw the bomb, right?
MG: Yeah.
NU: And the bomb exploded and killed two kids.
MG: Oh gosh.
NU: I never cried so much when I took a picture, I cried and said, “No more pictures.” I saw the mother jump, she wanted to kill herself because she lost two children and two girls in the hospital. I said, “Oh my god.” I cried a lot. I _ good picture, I didn’t want anymore pictures. I saw the family so sad and I say, “That war over many, many years.
Why people still die?” Then I know _+ and so many people died. Three months ago I went back to the village, I shot a lot of land mines on the _+. And now the American and
Vietnamese try to clean up all the land mines but the children, they don’t know. They step somewhere and you know, they die.
MG: Here you were talking about this. What –
NU: Yeah, this the man that _+ 1968, after Vietcong, after Saigon _. _+ work here too but I go to different location, and Eddie went _+ pagoda and saw Vietnamese soldiers captive by Vietcong and took him outside in the streets and I think he yelled at the general something. The general told all the soldiers, “Move.” Then he pulled the gun, one shot him right away, just one shot. I know the picture is so good, good picture but oh I say, “Oh my god. I don’t want to see the picture by myself.” You know, terrible photo.
MG: Yeah.
NU: You see the picture, more picture on the TV, on like movies. You see, you shot him, all the blood. I thought we lost the war because of all the pictures.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Because my picture, that’s why people were not happy to see this picture, more the
Vietnamese people that don’t like the picture.
MG: Well actually, I have a question about that. The Vietnam War was the first war where there was full freedom to the press, which allowed media to cover the war as they saw it. In 1966 Richard Ichord suggested to censor the Vietnam War and he said, “the country, the U.S. simply cannot afford distorted, biased, inaccurate, incomplete or irresponsible war news coverage.” What do you think about his statement?
NU: You know the Vietnam open media. There was a lot of freedom for media, the media can go everywhere you want, nobody can stop you. Like me, I go take pictures, the
American soldiers, “I want to get picture, I want to show you my family.” You know, they never stop media, you can go everywhere you want.
MG: Right.
NU: We have media pass, I can call the American Marines, BIO, and say, “I want to go from here to _,” everywhere you want. “Nicky, you want to go to Cambodia?” _+ They wait for you, you never buy tickets like welcome and the airplane goes.
MG: Yeah.
NU: So easy. Today, you go to Iraq or Afghanistan, they hate media.
MG: Why?
NU: They never welcome media because they learn a lesson from the Vietnam War, you don’t want any media to take a picture of dead bodies. You don’t want a picture like this in Vietnam, you don’t want picture of napalm. They never allow. Eddie Adams when he took a picture in Afghanistan, he took a picture, the soldier yelled at him, “Don’t take a picture.” He got upset and said, “I’m leaving, I’m never coming back.” And we had lunch together in LA, in Hollywood restaurant, he told me the stories and I said, “I’m going to war.” He yelled at me and said, “Nicky don’t go because this is not like Vietnam,
Vietnam was open media.” _ never welcome because the Americans learned everything from Nixon during Vietnam War. And never allowed to see a dead body, never.
MG: Yeah.
NU: And they always, soldiers always watching the camera. When you click something they look, watch you, and ask you why you took a picture. Vietnam, never had anything.
You shot the people die, there’s thousands bodies, nobody cared.
MG: Why do you think nobody cared about having the press around during the Vietnam
War?
NU: Vietnam, I think beginning they had more freedom, a lot more freedom. They don’t think about the war _ like Vietnam. After that, I shot a picture, Vietnam there was so many pictures like tragedy and people, soldiers dead everywhere that’s why they don’t want to see anything like Iraq and Afghanistan. _+ If I’m going to Afghanistan or Iraq, I
don’t want to go with American soldiers, I go on different side then I have a picture, but more danger.
MG: Yeah.
NU: That’s why we have some photographers go on the other side, the have such good pictures, of soldiers, Americans die. And that’s so dangerous for media.
MG: This woman mourns over the body of her dead husband after identifying him by his teeth.
NU: This picture in 1968 during the Vietcong attack the whole country in Vietnam War in way and the Vietcong killed thousands, thousands Vietnamese.
MG: Yeah.
NU: So many people, people are still alive. _+ they kill them and found the bodies later.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Very sad, after the Vietcong control in central Vietnam then they killed all the people with the South Vietnamese government people.
MG: And that was part of the Tet Offensive.
NU: Tet Offensive.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Right. That would be 1968.
MG: Yeah. How do you feel the Tet Offensive changed the Vietnam War from that point on?
NU: Tet Offensive, Americans learned a lot _ because they never believed the Vietcong were so strong. They didn’t believe that the Vietnamese soldiers maybe like World War
II, like snipers they shot and run. But not the Vietnamese, they had better American guns.
They came to Vietnam and they give us something like World War II, one shot and you need another shot like crazy. I remember in 1966, Vietcong killed hundreds of
Vietnamese soldiers and Americans in _ and that’s why Americans love Nixon, they gave the Vietnamese M-16, better gun. You remember in like World War II they gave all
Vietnamese such poor guns, you couldn’t even kill an elephant. My god, they _+ somebody or worse.
MG: Why did they give them such weak weapons?
NU: They didn’t think that the Vietcong were so strong.
MG: Oh.
NU: But China, North Koreans, Russians, super, more the best guns for the Vietcong, not
Vietnamese. They fight in America, fight Vietnamese and then after that, ’68, the
Americans learned so much about how strong the Vietcong more power.
MG: Right.
NU: Yeah.
MG: I actually have a quote about that. What do you think about Howard Zinn saying that “(The U.S.) the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the history of the world made a maximum military effort…to defeat a nationalist revolutionary movement in a tiny peasant country, Vietnam – and failed”? How do you feel about him saying, “tiny peasant country?”
NU: I was really happy after the war was over, Americans came back into Vietnam for business and the Vietnamese like Americans today. If you go to Saigon, everyone speaks
English. All the Vietnamese refugees left the country in 1975, now they’re all going back. Open business there, American business, Vietnam, everywhere, the whole country.
A lot of former American soldiers there want to visit Vietnam. _+ Sometimes I go with them. I’m so happy the war is over and we’re friends today. The Vietnamese and
Americans, we’re friends today.
MG: Yeah.
NU: And nobody wants to talk about war anymore, they go there to sit down and drinking like they are brothers and sisters.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Talk about family.
MG: Yeah. Let’s see, what’s the next question. In a previous Oral History Project when asked America’s opinion on the Vietnam War, veteran Clarence Carpenter said, “I think everyone (in the U.S) thought it was then a good thing because we were fighting communism and all that good stuff and…(I agreed) until I got there. Then I’d seen it was all just a bunch of bull.” What do you think he meant when he described it as “it was all just a bunch of bull”?
MG: _ my picture of napalm, I have met so many American soldiers everywhere. They would always cry to me and say, “Nicky, your picture stopped the war and I’m so happy.
Some people, some young men didn’t go to war because of your picture after Nixon stopped the war and Nicky I’m so happy your picture changed history. Your picture stopped the Vietnam because your photo, if not, then I had to go to Vietnam War.” I see so many soldiers, either Vietnamese soldiers, I walk _+ they come hug me and cry, I said,
“Why?” They said, “I should thank you because of your picture.” And a lot of
Americans, young Americans, I wouldn’t say young but now today they’re almost sixty.
During the Vietnam War they would always come to me and tell me stories and say,
“Nick, your pictures stop the war in Vietnam.” One time I met a girl, she was only nine years old, like Kim. She’s a woman today, she said, “Nicky, when I saw your picture _+,
I saw that, I went home and burned the trash, I _+ the administration, anti-war, everywhere in LA.” Because my picture –
MG: It’s powerful.
NU: Powerful _+ that’s why everywhere people always say, “Nicky, your picture changed everything.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: And they ask me, “I hope you go to Iraq and Afghanistan to take another picture and stop another war.” I say, “I’m not young anymore, I’m an old man now. I wish I could but _+ not like Vietnam.”
MG: Yeah. If you could go back to the Vietnam War, what would you do differently?
NU: You know, I go back all the time and I look for people that are happy and smiling.
The kids, like Kim Phuc, like _+ kids.
MG: Yeah.
NU: All _+ all the people, all the kids are always smiling, happy, wait for me, even old people. I went back to the village where there was napalm, everyone knows who I am.
They always say thank you, your picture, then they say, “I know you’re the photographer of the picture of napalm.” My whole country, they know who I am.
MG: Yeah.
NU: I _+ in the Vietnam War, I go back and don’t want to think about any picture of war again but I love pictures of the Vietnamese today. Of course, the children today, Asian
Orange, do you know Asian Orange, right? The kids get a chemical from the bombs, they’re like almost 100,000 children sick everywhere today. When they’re born, they were like this, like baby. (displays small distance with his hands) I remember I took a lot
of kids and now today they are almost forty but they’re like this. They’re very sick. Their parents don’t want sick die, they want the sick to die.
MG: Wait, why are they sick?
NU: Because of all the chemicals from bombs because Asian Orange.
MG: Oh. Ok yeah.
NU: You can look on Google, “Asian Orange.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: And you can find all the pictures. I always go back to the hospital to see the children. I help them too, sometimes I donate money for the kids.
MG: Yeah.
NU: There are hospitals everywhere, almost like 100,000 children with Asian Orange.
Then I covered a story about Asian Orange for Americans to help the kids. I think about a couple years ago, Americans donated a lot of money for children because the Americans don’t want to tell a story about Asian Orange but a lot of American soldiers come home today, they complain about Asian Orange. They get sick.
MG: The Americans do?
NU: A lot of Americans soldiers get Asian Orange.
MG: Oh.
NU: They _+ VA hospital, everywhere. I took a picture of a former U.S. marine like last week, I talked to the man. I saw he was decapitated, I said, “Where did you go to war?”
He said “Oh I was a marine in Vietnam.” Then I talked with him, he said, “I go to war as a marine everywhere.” Then I talked and said, “Are you ok?” They said, “Oh he had
Asian Orange.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: Yeah. In my cell phone _+ me all the pictures of him that week.
MG: Yeah. How has your outlook on life changed since the time you took the “Napalm
Girl” photo?
NU: You know, after picture I changed everything, changed my life. I thought that nobody knows who I am but now everyone knows, I’m sure.
MG: But everyone does.
NU: When I was a teenager, sixteen, I was lucky I had a job, then I pictured the “Napalm
Girl” when I was nineteen, and _+ I’m twenty, and everyone knew who I was. The guy, kid, _+ on twenty-three young. Like little baby. Nobody could believe that.
MG: Yeah. That’s amazing. Here’s the last question, what do you think the world learned from the Vietnam War?
NU: I think the Americans learned a lot in the Vietnam War, more than World War II or any other war. They learned a lot, they learned a lot because the Americans spent a lot of time in in Vietnam, they learned all kinds of lessons in the Vietnam War. Even the
Vietnamese learned a lot of lessons in the war. I learned a lot from the war. If I _ the war,
I see be good soldier. I learned a lot, I took pictures everyday. Then I see everything happen right in front of my eyes, that’s why I learned everything and how the people fight and everything. I’m not a soldier but I’d be a good soldier, a lot like young
Americans in the Vietnam War. Sometimes with the former U.S. marine we had lunch or dinner together _+ and we talk a lot about the war in Vietnam, how lucky we are to come home and how we learned from the war. You know, one of the best soldiers in Vietnam.
MG: Yeah.
NU: Americans, the best. I don’t think we lost the war in Vietnam, the Americans. _+
Where Nixon went secondhand with China, and that’s it, war over. That doesn’t mean
America lost the Vietnam War. Nobody wanted a win or loss. Now we go back to
Vietnam, we won the economic, in Vietnam, America won the economy. Now we are in friendship too. If you go to Vietnam and say, “Oh we lost the war,” they say, “No,
Americans won.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: And the Americans here they say, “We lost the war.” That’s not true. But in
Vietnam they believe the Americans won the war. American _ won the war in Vietnam, so what? If they win, what does that do?
MG: Right.
NU: That’s why_ secondhand with China, all the mean people make a lot more money.
They don’t care about small Vietnam.
MG: Yeah. And I have one question that’s not related to this, or it is. Why did you decide to crop the photo and crop out the photojournalist?
NU: You looked at my Facebook. (laughs)
MG: (laughs)
NU: That’s not true.
MG: Oh, you didn’t?
NU: N, no. Every picture we send it as full frame.
MG: Oh.
NU: The newspaper, they crop what they want. They crop everything they want, newspaper.
MG: Oh!
NU: Not AP. We send the full frame. We have commented already in the Facebook, last month. People sent messages and _ of story in the Washington Post. People said everywhere that the picture of Napalm was cropped, we didn’t crop.
MG: Yeah.
NU: You know, we shot a lot of pictures see in my picture, the one _+ everything we shot and sometimes the angle, we want to cut crop better.
MG: Mhmm.
NU: You know, what we mostly shot, we move the full frame. You know you crop and it doesn’t mean anything, the best men in Photoshop know better and don’t think to crop.
Crop doesn’t mean anything, crop you know, we don’t want. The newspaper, with the picture of napalm, they full frame. Then the newspaper, they don’t want to see her naked, they want to cover her up.
MG: Yeah.
NU: And they wanted all kinds of different pictures, the newspaper but not AP because it was full frame.
MG: Yeah.
NU: We said comment _+ and evidence stop and nobody says nothing no more. They tell my story, almost for two weeks I was crazy. They said, “Why did you crop?” I say, “No!
We didn’t crop.”
MG: Yeah.
NU: The newspapers, they crop what they want.
MG: That’s amazing. How do you feel about them cropping that?
NU: You know, I remember the war in Vietnam, there were a lot of pictures. We sometimes need like TV movie.
MG: Mhmm.
NU: Sometimes with pictures, you need close-up, close-up.
MG: Yeah.
NU: The paper, they cut the picture, “Oh I want picture this close like this. I don’t want to see this guy, right look inside, the guy’s so boring. I want to crop this way.” One of the pictures are so sad, you don’t want the next guy to see that he’s smiling, so then you crop the guy out. Right?
MG: Yeah.
NU: It makes the picture more stronger.
MG: Yeah. Well, ok, thanks. I’m done. Do you have any questions for me?
NU: _+ not.
MG: No?
NU: And I wish you well, with your school.
MG: Thanks. I forgot the release form so I’m going to have to –
NU: Don’t worry.
MG: I’m going to have to mail it to you or something.
NU: No, don’t worry.
MG: But I appreciate your time so much.
NU: I charge no money. (laughs)
MG: (laughs)
NU: I’m kidding. No, no worry.
MG: That was actually great.
NU: I have _+ the whole world, interviews from Russia, France, Germany. They email almost everyday, I’m so tired. (laughs)
MG: (laughs)
Time Index Log
Interviwer – Meryl Goeke Interviewee – Nick Ut Date of Interview – December 30, 2013 Location of Interview – Associated Press, Los Angeles, CA Recording Format – MP3
Minute Topic
0 Childhood
5 Photography peers
10 Events after bomb dropping
15 Aftermath of Vietnam and Kim Phuc
20 Kim Phuc
25 Soldiers
30 Power of Media
35 Aftermath for United States
40 Asian Orange
45 “Napalm Girl” Cropped Frame
Interview Analysis
Photojournalist Nick Ut, reflecting on the commentary he received from his photo, stated that American soldiers told him, “Nicky, your picture stopped the war and
I’m so happy” (Ut qtd in Goeke 47). In less than a second, time and space froze in a small rectangular frame, capturing “Napalm Girl,” altering peoples’ views on the Vietnam War.
Americans at home waited for news about the war and in 1972 received a mesmerizing display of terror on a young naked girl’s face, screaming for help after her body was badly burned by a napalm bomb. While textual-based history is important for basic understanding about events, people, and places, oral history is even more important. It allows the world to understand an actual experience in history, like Nick Ut’s camera view experience of Kim Phuc’s skin quickly being eaten away. Sharing news, stories, and memories through oral history creates a deeper connection to the topic at hand. As Studs
Terkel believed, “People are hungry for stories. It’s part of our very being. Storytelling is a form of history, of immortality too. It goes from one generation to another.” With the topic of the Vietnam War, or any other major historical event, it is necessary to analyze both textual-based and oral history to create a complete understanding. Nick Ut’s observations reinforce the strength media has, specifically photography, in time of death, despair, and tragedy, while he also contradicts the winning of North Vietnam and
Vietcong in the war.
Throughout the interview Nick Ut told me about his brother, opinions on the
Vietnam War, life as a photographer, the “Napalm Girl” photo and more. He said the reason he became a photographer was because of his brother, due to his being killed in the war. It was then that Ut knew he wanted to become photographer, and he joined the
Associated Press at the age of 16. To this day he is the youngest to have joined their ranks, and he just celebrated 48 years of working for them. He said that the job of a photojournalist in wartime was very dangerous. He said “a photographer travels like soldier”, and he found himself running because of the “bombs by America, by the
Vietcong.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 21) While this job was obviously dangerous he never gave up for the citizens of the world. He even risked his life three times while on assignment.
When asked his opinions on the Vietnam War, he quickly responded with, “(the)
Vietnam War was a real war.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 23) Ut said he would see, “the bombs, the noise,” and that “everywhere you see black smoke burning.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 22)
When he saw such horror he became emotional and would “cry sometimes” because he
“(saw) so many people die.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 22) Ut commented on the photography during the Vietnam War, “…you see so many pictures.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 22) At this time he, Eddie Adams, Henri Huet, Malcolm Browne, and Horst Faas took photos to allow people around the world to be informed. “I thought we lost the war because of all the pictures,” he commented on the role media played. (Ut qtd in Goeke 23) Ut said that because of his picture, “that’s why people were not happy to see this picture.” (Ut qtd in
Goeke 24) When viewing the photo it was, “more the Vietnamese people that don’t like the picture.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 24) The “Napalm Girl” sent the message that the Vietnam
War was scarring and wounding too many people. The Vietnam War was one of the few wars where the press was allowed to take photos. “The media could go everywhere, nobody could stop you.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 24) The open media was the biggest reason why lots of photographers had so many opportunities to show the world what was going on. Whereas today in Iraq or Afghanistan “they hate media.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 24) They
don’t welcome media “because they learn a lesson from the Vietnam War,” which was,
“you don’t want picture of dead bodies.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 25) With the limits on the photographers today, news is not as easy to capture truthfully. After I told him that photography is powerful, he said, “that’s why everywhere people always say, ‘Nicky, your picture changed everything.’” (Ut qtd in Goeke 40) Ut talked about how he, the
Americans, and Vietnamese learned from the Vietnam War. When he talked about what he learned he said, “I see everything happen right in front of my eyes,” because of the life he chose as a photojournalist. (Ut qtd in Goeke 41) He went on to say, “I learned everything and how the people fight.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 41) Ut was able to share the lessons he learned through the photos he captured. Ut later expressed the outcomes of the war, “I think the Americans learned a lot in the Vietnam War.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 41)
Instead he felt that the Americans won and stated that Americans are “the best.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 42) Nick Ut felt “America won the economy” and that now there is a friendship between the two countries. (Ut qtd in Goeke 42) A more important question he wonders is, “So what if they win, what does that do?” (Ut qtd in Goeke 42) Hundreds of people died, including Ut’s friends and family, in a war proving that neither side won.
Along with the fact that photographers carry a crucial burden to portray the world in times of distress, loss, or even triumph during the Vietnam War, they also carry an opinion on the outcomes of the war. Nick Ut stated, “the Americans here say, ‘We lost the war.’ That’s not true.” He feels this way because of inumerable Vietnamese lives lost, and the idea that “America won the economy.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 42) “In Vietnam they believe the Americans won the war.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 43) Nick Ut, and other
Vietnamese, watched people scream, cry, and die. Not only did he photograph the war, he
was wounded three times and has a close friend, Kim Phuc, who is forever scarred because of the brutal events in Vietnam. Whereas, most historians feel that the United
States lost the Vietnam War. The United States did stop fighting during the war and
Vietnam became communist, but the outcomes of the war allowed the Vietnamese to create a strong love for America. Howard Zinn stated, “the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the history of the world made a maximum military effort…to defeat a nationalist revolutionary movement in a tiny peasant country – and failed.” Howard Zinn has such strong opinions, but he did not experience the death, trauma, and outcomes of the war. One idea Ut can agree with Zinn on is “There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people,” meaning that no matter how sorry the Vietnamese and U.S. are for killing tons of people, the views and outcomes of the war will never change. There is no reason to start or continue a war where lives are disposed of like trash.
Nick Ut was not one of the few who were in support of freedom of the press, so were many others. In C. Douglas Elliot’s book, Images from Combat Photographers, he described the images that came in from the combat operation as ones “that did not show winners and losers. They showed soldiers- often teenagers – coping as best they could with unrelenting heat and humidity, heavy packs, heavy guns, and an invisible enemy whose mines, booby traps, and snipers could cut life short without a moment’s warning.”
In order to capture these images, photojournalists took extreme risks and suffered almost as much as soldiers through shootings, life threats, and more. Elliot would agree with Ut on how important it is to take these risks in order to spread news around the world. Ut stated, “A lot of power, but those pictures show most powerful.” (Ut qtd in Goeke 36) He
fought for his life to bring powerful images to those who were not in the war.
Photography is one of the most, if not the most powerful media source in the world. It can be viewed in less than a minute and change the beliefs of a person in that same time period. Photojournalism will continue to live on to serve the world no matter the risks.
As many high school students view the oral history project as just a project for a grade, in reality, oral history serves the world to preserve memories and happenings for all generations to come. Edward Hellett Carr with his fourteen-volume history of the
Soviet Union, Arthur Schlesinger’s work of 20th-century American liberalism, Studs
Terkel’s oral histories of common Americans, and many others lived to record history in order to allow everyone from then on to have the ability to know a deeper side to the past besides the bland and factual chapters of a textbook, just like photography. It shows the deeper and more emotional meaning of war, chaos, and death. Personally I learned that I want to become a photojournalist in addition to my list of traveling the world, being a teacher, and to be happy with the life I live. There are people everywhere that have it better or worse than I do, and who cares? That’s just the way life is. What I find important is that we all try to make connections in some way, small or big in this grand world we live in. Interviewing a grown man about sensitive issues in his life is difficult, but making a connection with him is not. I’ve discovered that while we all struggle in our own ways, it is important for us to share thoughts on life, death, and dreams, because no matter what we do in our life – we all experience them.
Works Consulted
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