Tesla Partners with Samsung on New 5Nm Chip for Full Self-Driving, Report Says Fred Lambert - Jan

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JANUARY 25 Tesla partners with Samsung on new 5nm chip for full self-driving, report says Fred Lambert - Jan. 25th 2021 8:45 am ET  @FredericLambert

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Tesla has reportedly partnered with Samsung on a new 5nm chip for full self-driving, according to a new report coming from Korea.

Tesla moves to design its own chips

Back in 2016, Tesla started building a team of chip architects led by legendary chip designer Jim Keller to develop its own silicon.

The goal was to design a super powerful and ecient chip for self- driving.

In 2019, Tesla nally unveiled the chip as part of its Hardware 3.0 (HW 3.0) self-driving computer.

They claim a factor of 21 improvement in frame per second processing versus the previous generation Tesla Autopilot hardware, which was powered by Nvidia hardware, while only barely increasing the power consumption.

When launching the new chip, CEO Elon Musk announced that Tesla is already working on the next generation of the chip, and they expect it to be three times better than the new chip and roughly two years from production.

Tesla’s next-generation self-driving chip

A few months ago, there was a report that Tesla planned for its next-generation self-driving chip to use a 7-nanometer process by TSMC, a Taiwan semiconductor company.

Now a new report from Korea states that Tesla is partnering with Samsung on a 5-nanometer chip for self-driving (via Asia-E and translated from Korean):

According to related industries on the 25th, the Samsung Electronics Foundry Division is currently conducting research and development (R&D) on 5nm-class system semiconductors to be mounted on Tesla autonomous vehicles. The 5nm semiconductor applied with the extreme ultraviolet (EUV) process is a high-tech product that only a small number of companies such as Samsung Electronics and TSMC can produce worldwide.

Samsung is already Tesla’s partner for the production of its current self-driving chips in its hardware 3.0 computer.

However, that chip is based on a 14-nm technology.

5-nm chips are a more recent technology that only started to make it into commercial products last year. They are found in some of the latest smartphones, like Apple’s iPhone 12.

The latest report on Tesla’s new chips stated that mass production was planned for Q4 2021 – meaning that we aren’t likely to see those chips inside Tesla production vehicles until 2022.

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welsh_boy • 2 days ago Some thoughts what the shift from 14nm to 5nm and revised architecture may enable: less power consumption less cost (per chip) merging of the two redundant processors to a single die (see PCBA picture in the article) bring the media display CPU and GPU on die bring the cellular modem on die bring high speed ram on die more processing for less frequent hand oﬀs to driver support for new algorithms / compute eﬃciency (see less power consumption) support for the rumored hi-res front radar? support for additional cameras / sensors on yet to be released models (roadster, cybertruck / semi / ???) 34 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

watchingfromabove > welsh_boy • 2 days ago Good comments, welsh boy.

I agree with those except the one about putting the redundant processors on a chip. It might make sense to put two core equivalents on the same chip and have quad redundancy by adding another package since the point is to make the system fault tolerant and if one of the processors fail and dies bringing the chip down, the system still works. That said, to do fault tolerance right, There would actually be three boards with diﬀerent power supplies, I/O paths, in diﬀerent physical locations in the car, all working fully independent and voting (possibly overkill). This is a similar architecture to what the space shuttle used for the primary GPCs which the shuttle was dependent upon. 17 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Joseph Brown > watchingfromabove • a day ago It is also similar to what the Dragon does, as well. 6 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Commenter4376 > watchingfromabove • 9 hours ago They're not going to merge the MCU with the self driving chip though. They are already in talks with AMD for the next- gen MCU which will likely approach PS5 / Xbox gaming console levels of power. 1 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Anthony > welsh_boy • a day ago There is no way you can put all that stuﬀ on one single die. Its a terrible idea.

1. Put the RAM on package like the new Apple M1 chip maybe. It would seem to be a good approach. 2. Leave MCU CPU/GPU alone. It brings no value to the FSD system to have this here. Just connect over a high speed bus and let the MCU do its thing. 3. Leave cell modem and RF front end alone. Again, those chips don't bring any value for Tesla to integrate into FSD. 2 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

alan > welsh_boy • a day ago and if you bring the world on on die your fault rate will go up to the moon , some of the things your mention should be some should not I would not bring modem or ram on die as one is going to change and the other can be cached . 3 △ ▽ 2 • Reply • Share ›

phubbing > welsh_boy • 19 hours ago sounds like #apple #m1 :)) uniﬁed memory pool ;))

well very nice :) 1 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Stephan > welsh_boy • 20 hours ago Having two chips could very well be a necessy redundancy by design. Don't forget that the hardwade is highly functional saftey relevant. At least I would be more than happy that if I use FSD and one chip fails there is another one that can stopp the car in a controlled way. Atm everything is speculation. Half a year ago more pointed to TSMC producing processors for Dojo than for FSD. At this point w/o further spec (especially chip size) there is an almost equal chance that it is about the next controller for the infotainment device. △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

AS3 > welsh_boy • a day ago I agree with all the potential additions you mentioned, except "support for the rumored hi-res front radar" and "support for additional cameras" (for the Roadster or Cybertruck). Tesla will make sure to keep the same 8 cameras, 1 radar, and 12 ultrasonic sensor inputs into the SoC. Nothing special needs to be made, for the new radar.

Tesla is about eﬃciency, so it is not likely that extra equipment will be added, for the Roadster or Cybertruck. In fact, the Semi- truck has a huge camera reduction, from the original concept (so far). △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

RoadRunner48 > AS3 • a day ago The article here the other day about a high-res radar was for an internal radar, something to scan the interior of the passenger cabin. Sadly, it was not anything about a new sensor to scan the environment, which is what Tesla needs to make any meaningful advance in Autopilot toward Level 4 autonomy.

△ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Paul Vining > RoadRunner48 • a day ago Musk in an interview earlier this year in Germany said he already has reached Level 5 autonomy... 1 △ ▽ 1 • Reply • Share ›

Dan Frederiksen > Paul Vining • 19 hours ago Musk doesn't necessarily always tell the complete truth. Level 5 they most certainly don't have. 1 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

kbm3 > Paul Vining • 14 hours ago Nope. △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Alaa • 2 days ago 5nm means faster and consumes less energy 9 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

AS3 > Alaa • a day ago Well, it means less energy consumed, at least (if everything else stays the same). The only main way to get faster, without a clock increase, is to bring the memory a lot closer to the CPUs (decrease latency).

I do expect clock increases and/or more parallel processing. They will likely work within the current power draw limits (maybe even a little bit more power draw). 1 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Old_ISP > AS3 • an hour ago Actually, the slew rate is dependent on the saturation. So the smaller, the faster it saturates. △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Belland _Dog > Alaa • 2 days ago Yes, that's what a generational leap usually does (or at least what they strive to do, otherwise there is no reason for the new process). Though ofc it can range wildly with diﬀerent architectures. △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Taher Assaid > Belland _Dog • 18 hours ago they didn't skip just 1 generation they skipped more like 4 or 5 gens at once 14nm is 2011 technology there's been 12nm, 10nm, 8nm, 7nm and now 5nm already in mass production since last year (used for AMD Zen 3 and Apple Silicon for iPhone 12 and Mac M1) 2 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Old_ISP > Taher Assaid • an hour ago So cool! My major was VLSI design many years ago and at the time they had achieved 5nm. Since I never worked in the ﬁeld, I didn't realize they hadn't ﬁgured out how to make it to production in all these years (lazy, I know) Honestly thought they were dabbling in pm by now. △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Belland _Dog > Taher Assaid • 17 hours ago Yes, I know. Also Zen 3 is still on 7nm, Zen 4 will be going to 5nm. 3nm is in experimentation from TSMC right now and will likely go into risk production next year or the year after that. △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

dweick > Belland _Dog • a day ago More chips per wafer can also lower costs 2 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

geemy > dweick • 5 hours ago 14 to 5nm means huge reduction in size (for same number of transistors) so it could easily be split into much more transistors AND much smaller die size (which means lower cost, especially once new production lines are amortized) △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Manu • 2 days ago • edited I'm impatient to read about the specs of the new monster! 9 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Belland _Dog > Manu • a day ago Me as well. 2 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Adam • 2 days ago Samsung's 5nm process is closer to TSMC's 7nm than TSMC 5nm in transistor density, so it's still not like the new iPhone/MacBook.

At the same time it's still a huge improvement over 14 nm. 6 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Belland _Dog > Adam • 2 days ago Yeah, "nm" is just a term for generational improvement nowadays. It doesn't actually mean anything related to size's. And is completely diﬀerent between diﬀerent chip fabrications. 4 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

geemy > Belland _Dog • 5 hours ago • edited interesting, i guess I havent been following this for too much time. do you have some sources about this ? UPDATE havent gone into all the details, but it seems like transistors density is actually going up for every drop in "nm" so it is deﬁnitely related to size, although I'm not sure exactly whats the relation △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Belisarius > Adam • a day ago It does not matter really. TSMC is spending 100 bn USD towards building a 3 and 5nm plant in the USA (to avoid capture by the chines) and Samsung will likely source TSMC for production. it is sometimes cheaper to source production than to overhaul your factory at a cost of 10 Bn $ USD... △ ▽ 1 • Reply • Share ›

Abhinav Chandiwal > Belisarius • a day ago Belisarius. Samsung has its own Fab. It will never source TSMC for production. They might source the entire chip on their phones (Snapdragon) which may be made by TSMC but they won't just outsource manufacturing of their own designs or Tesla's designs if they are contracted to make them. That does not make any sense at all.

Tl;dr There are primarily 2 high tech chip manufacturers in the world. TSMC and Samsung (Huawei got embargoed). And they both have their own fabs and very much intend to keep it that way. 2 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Belisarius > Abhinav Chandiwal • a day ago I know that and even published on the topic. But have seen all sorts of things in the industry precisely like snapdragon. For example say a manufacturer switches to 3 nm but still has 5-7 nm contracts, yes no issues sourcing the design to another fabricant. Also despite the innovative rivalry all these companies implicitly trust each other (as opposed to SMIC thieves and Huawei thieves) to issue production specs without fear or too much fear of patent infringement. 1 △ ▽ 1 • Reply • Share ›

Serge Pavlovsky > Abhinav Chandiwal • a day ago • edited intel has its own fab, but intel admitted it will source tsmc for production. i wonder why tesla "partners" with samsung instead of leading foundry. and huawei is not chip manufacturer △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

shm224 > Serge Pavlovsky • a day ago • edited Intel has its own fab, but they are (almost all) for internal use only -- Intel doesn't compete with TSMC for foundry customers whereas Samsung's foundry is a direct competitor to TSMC. That being said, sharing technology or customer is not unheard of. For instance, Global Foundry and IBM were members of Common Alliiance. Samsung licensed their 14nm to Global Foundries and even "shared" customers.

As for Tesla's partnership with Samsung, Samsung's 5nm is plenty cutting edge, △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Belland _Dog > Belisarius • a day ago They don't need to do that to avoid capture by the Chinese, however it does strengthen ties. Their companies are already far to valuable to several countries (Including the US, Japan, South Korea, etc.) to let them be taken over. Also, yes chip fabs are very, very expensive. That's why Intel will probably be outsourcing to TSMC (hopefully this will allow them to ﬁx their own fabs in the meantime). 2 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

independence01776 > Belland _Dog • a day ago The US, Japan, S. Korea are not going to use military intervention if China moves towards a military takeover. Likely US imposes some meaningful sanctions. Korea and Japan due to proximity will likely impose some not so meaningful sanctions. What EU does will dictate the outcome and China has been attempting to gain EU favor for a decade to play one side of democracy against the other. 4 years of Trump didn't help of course, but in the end it's very likely a losing strategy for the CCCP as freedom / democracy is inately a human desire. CCCP believes that economics will allow them to continue, but that works for people coming out of poverty. It's much harder to hold such control and limit basic freedoms on folks no longer impoverished. Which ultimately is why most folks in Taiwan want nothing the CCCP has to oﬀer, but are happily tied to the economic engine of big brother. △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

shm224 > Belisarius • a day ago • edited Hmm.. No. TSMC plans to spend $26B-$28B for their Arizon plant. Samsung announced that they are spending $100+B in their foundry and IC business over next 10 years -- Samsung already spends well over $20+B on CAPEX every year.

And no. TSMC couldn't really care less about possible Chinese invasion. It was Trump twisting TSMC's arm to open a new plant in the US. 1 △ ▽ 1 • Reply • Share ›

Belisarius > shm224 • a day ago Yes they are. The sum of investments will span 100 bn $ with partner funding. Yes they are worried about taiwan; unless you check this weekend's news, and are a national security specialization, you cannot know that they are but it reflects every national decision in taiwan. BTW, two degrees in the field. Also, NO, they will not invade, they will declare a BLOCKADE around Taiwan which would cut off all in and out. It is already planned by Xi and being accelerated of fear of Biden;s coalition. Either case, in case wondering, takes one million written words to achieve a publication grade expertise, and somewhere around 1000 references from peer reviewed to quantitative/qualitative. Yes, we are far closer to conflict and a Taiwan than you think, but take online publications literally. 1 △ ▽ 1 • Reply • Share ›

Gilles Gregoire • a day ago • edited My Model bought with the AP3.0 (HW 3.0) was shipped with the AP2.5 - the nvidia chip - ( model 3 LR with FSD may 2019) - I am still waiting for the hw3.0 upgrade ! As many other european customers ! And they are talking about HW4.0 ? 3 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Rune Vik > Gilles Gregoire • a day ago If you're lucky you'll go straight to 4.0 :-) 4 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

AS3 > Gilles Gregoire • a day ago European customers have ZERO need for HW 3.0. It won't likely be necessary, until the European laws more closely follows the U.S. and Canadian driving automation rules. European laws have severely handicapped Autopilot, even with Autopilot 2.5 hardware. 2 △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

Gilles Gregoire > AS3 • 16 hours ago sorry AS3, Tesla Autopilot detects speed limits and green lights WITH HW3.0 - I took a ﬁne because I was at 47 kmh (FSD said speed limit 50 kmh) and the real speed limit was 30 ! (FSD engaged) ; So, HW3.0 is aleady useful in Europe △ ▽ • Reply • Share ›

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