T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N HANSARD S T A N D I N G C O M M I T T E E O F T Y N W A L D O N S O C I A L A F F A I R S P O L I C Y R E V I E W B I N G V E A Y N T I N V A A L M Y C H I O N E A A S C R U T A G H E Y P O L A S E E Y N E R C O O I S H Y N K I A R A I L Y T H E A Y PRE–SCHOOL EDUCATION Douglas, Thursday, 21st June 2012 PP99/12 SAPRC-PSE, No. 1 All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year: Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2012 STANDING COMMITTEE, THURSDAY, 21st JUNE 2012 Members Present: Chairman: Mrs B J Cannell, MHK Hon. S C Rodan SHK Mr D A Callister MLC Clerk: Mr J King Business Transacted Page Procedural.................................................................................................................................................3 Swearing of the Oath...............................................................................................................................3 Evidence of Mr D M W Butt, MLC....................................................................................................3 Mr Hall was called at 3.40 p.m. Swearing of the Oath.............................................................................................................................18 Evidence of Mr Z Hall, MHK...........................................................................................................18 The Committee adjourned at 4.42 p.m. _________________________________________________________________ 2 SAPRC-PSE STANDING COMMITTEE, THURSDAY, 21st JUNE 2012 Standing Committee of Tynwald on Social Affairs Policy Review Pre-School Education The Committee sat in public at 10.30 a.m. in the Legislative Council Chamber, Legislative Buildings, Douglas [MRS CANNELL in the Chair] Procedural The Chairman (Mrs B J Cannell, MHK): Good afternoon, and welcome to this public meeting of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee. I am Mrs Brenda Cannell MHK and I chair this Committee. The other members of the Committee are: to my left, Mr David Callister, Member of the Legislative Council; Mr Speaker, Mr Steve Rodan, SHK; to my right is our Clerk, 5 Mr Jonathan King. Can I ask members of the public to please switch off your mobile phones at this point. Please do not just put them on silent, as they can actually interfere with our recording equipment. Also for the benefit of Hansard, I shall make sure that we do not have two people speaking at once, which is unlikely to happen (Laughter) – except for my Committee members, of course! 10 We issued a call for evidence in April of this year and we are grateful to all members of the public who have responded. This is our first oral hearing as part of this investigation and we are hearing from two former Members today of the Department of Education: Mr Dudley Butt, Member of the Legislative Council; and Mr Zac Hall, Member of the House of Keys. 15 Swearing of the Oath The Chairman: Can I welcome Mr Butt. Can I also advise that, at this point, I would invite 20 him to take the Oath, please. This will be a systematic approach to every witness that we call in this investigation, because it is important that we get to the truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you. The Clerk administered the oath to Mr Butt, who took the Bible in his right hand and swore as 25 follows: ‘I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give to the Committee at this and any further hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.’ 30 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr Butt. EVIDENCE OF MR D M W BUTT, MLC 35 Q1. The Chairman: First of all, if you would like… Would you like to make an opening statement? Mr Butt: Yes, Chair. If I may, I would like to perhaps give a timeline as to how we arrived at 40 the original application for cuts from the Department, if that is okay with the Committee. The Chairman: Yes, that would be very useful. Thank you. Mr Butt: Madam Chair, I joined the Department of Education and Children in May 2009, 45 when the Minister then was Mrs Anne Craine. I worked with her and my responsibilities included _________________________________________________________________ 3 SAPRC-PSE STANDING COMMITTEE, THURSDAY, 21st JUNE 2012 children, Integrated Children’s Services and Special Needs. Then, in April 2010, the Department became fully named as the Department of Education and Children under Mr Teare as the Minister, and I kept the same responsibilities. During that period, we had discussions about budget cuts on a regular basis, because the 50 budget for the Department in both those years had been cut. Previously, we had a very good pupil- teacher ratio, perhaps better than most of the UK, but during those two years we did make some reductions, mostly based on the school roll in certain schools where there was over-supply of teachers. Each school varied – some had a lower school roll, some had higher – and the teaching posts were varied depending on that ratio. 55 We also, on occasions, I believe, had mixed-year classes, i.e. two years working together, which was deemed not to be too unfavourable to children, but that did happen on occasions. So the standard was lowering slightly because of the cuts. At the same time, I think we made several cuts to the administration staff – I think 16 in the last year – so it was not just the teachers who were being cut, it was the administration staff as 60 well. Every year, we did discuss how we would cope in the future years, and the issue of imposing student tuition fees was discussed in both of the years in my time with Mr Teare and Mrs Craine, and in neither time was it accepted that we would go that way. However, in I think April 2010, we put an Order before Tynwald which allowed for a £1,000 levy to be put to parents for students who did the fourth year. So we had broken the duck, in effect, 65 in terms of student tuition fees, by imposing the £1,000 for anything over three years. In fact, I was caught out myself, with my daughter one of the first people to be caught. But that, to my mind, actually broke the mould of saying we will not actually impose student tuition fees. The Department, I thought, ran very well and I was very impressed with the officials who ran the Department, and still am: Mr Cain initially and then Mr Stuart Dobson now as the Chief 70 Executive, and their advice, I always thought, was sound and invaluable and I thought the Department was well run. We had a meeting on I think it was 2nd August of last year, where the Minister, Mr Teare, and I think Mr Quirk – I am not sure – met with the Treasury with our submission for that year’s Budget in the third floor in Government Offices here, and the meeting was with Mrs Craine, who 75 was then Treasury Minister; Mr Braidwood; Mr Lowey was there; and I think some officials from the Department. That was a case of us submitting our budget, how much we needed for the year, and I think that was the preamble to the Budget process. During that meeting – and I cannot be sure of this – I am positive we did not talk about anything to do with pre-school education cuts or Manx language cuts, or anything like that. We 80 did, I think, talk about the increased student fees, because in the UK the fees had gone up to £9,000 as a maximum and we did envisage that maybe we would have to increase the money we paid the English universities, so it was a topic of conversation, about student fees. I cannot be certain that was said, but that is my recollection of that, in August of that year, last year. Regarding pre-school education, we were aware in the Department, under both Mrs Craine and 85 Mr Teare, that there was inequity in the system as it stood. I think the figure we were given then was 60% of children were able to get pre-school education and the rest of the population were not getting it. In geographic areas, there was none at all. We did a survey for the public to consider where we looked at different options, and they included reducing the number of mornings per week, or making a minimal charge or a small 90 charge to people to spread the load, and if the money came in, to actually use that money to help pay for private places elsewhere. There was an option paper put to the public and we had responses came in, and I think my memory of it is that none of them actually found favour. There were more people against every proposal than for them. My memory is, Chair, that it went to Tynwald and there was a discussion in Tynwald some time in 2010 and that the Tynwald 95 resolution decreed that the matters should stay as they are and that there should nursery supervision provided extra to other areas, as and when the resources became available.