L E G I S L A T I V E C O U N C I L O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Y C H O O N C E I L S L A T T Y S S A G H

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

HANSARD

Douglas, Tuesday, 26th February 2013

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Volume 130, No. 13

ISSN 1742-2272

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © Court of Tynwald, 2013 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

Present:

The President of the Council (Hon. C M Christian)

The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt Rev. R M E Paterson), Mr R P Braidwood, Mr D M W Butt, Mr D A Callister, Mr E A Crowe, Mr A F Downie OBE, Mr E G Lowey, Mr J R Turner and Mr T P Wild, with Mr J D C King, Clerk of the Council.

Business Transacted Page

Leave of absence granted ...... 301

Orders of the Day 1. Regulation of Care Bill 2012 – Third Reading approved ...... 301 2. Bribery Bill 2012 – Second Reading approved ...... 303 Bribery Bill 2012 – Clauses considered ...... 304 3. Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 – First Reading approved ...... 312 Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 – Standing Order 4.3(2) suspended to take remaining stages at this sitting ...... 313 Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 – Second Reading approved ...... 314 Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 – Clauses considered ...... 314 Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 – Third Reading approved ...... 317 4. Tributes to outgoing Members, Mr Callister, Mr Lowey, Mr Turner and Mr Wild – Motion carried ...... 318

Procedural – Ensuring a quorum in Council...... 326 Procedural – Sunbeds Bill delegation ...... 326

The Council adjourned at 12.20 p.m.

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Legislative Council

The Council met at 10.30 a.m.

[MADAM PRESIDENT in the Chair]

5 The President: Moghrey mie, Hon. Members.

Members: Moghrey mie, Madam President.

The President: The Lord Bishop will lead us in prayer. 10

PRAYERS The Lord Bishop 15

Leave of absence granted

20 The President: Leave of absence is granted to the learned Attorney General.

Orders of the Day 25

Regulation of Care Bill 2012 Third Reading approved

30 1. Mr Butt to move:

That the Regulation of Care Bill 2012 be read a third time and do pass.

The President: We turn to the Regulation of Care Bill for the Third Reading. I call on Mr 35 Butt.’

Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. First of all on this Third Reading, I would like to thank Hon. Members for their contributions during the clauses stages. The mover of the Bill in another place has asked me to pass on his 40 thanks to Members for the scrutiny that they have given to this Bill. There were some issues raised that I would like to cover further, Madam President, before moving on. There were questions about the vetting and the barring of people, in particular in relation to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. All people who work with either vulnerable adults or children are excepted persons and in their case, the convictions and cautions have to be 45 disclosed. So the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply in their case. The vetting process has now changed and we passed an Order in 2010 – the Police Act 1997 (Criminal Records) (Isle of Man) Order – which actually extended the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 of the UK to the Isle of Man, which allows us to use the English, the UK Children’s Barred List or the Adults’ Barred List under that Act to use as disqualifying 50 circumstances in the Isle of Man. Last year, the Isle of Man Vetting Bureau was formed by the Department of Home Affairs and they became the bar organisation for processing enhanced checks through the Criminal and Records Bureau in England, which has merged with the Independent Safeguarding Authority.

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When the Bill was drafted, Madam President, that was still in process so it is planned that under 55 regulations made under the Bill, that issue will be able to be covered by regulations. Madam President, there was a question about the number of staff that will be required to manage this Bill. There was an impact assessment to see what actual effect this would have. There will be one new administration post, to deal predominantly with the increased registrations and the fees and the requirement to publish inspection reports. There will also be one new inspector to deal 60 with the increased number of inspections. Based on the current numbers and new services that will come under regulation, this will be an increase in routine inspections of about 40 inspections per year. The fees consultation set out that whilst the proposed changes to make the fee structure more equitable across services and the increased numbers being registered, it will bring in a greater cost 65 recovery, but it never has and will not allow for full recovery for the cost of regulation. However, that is not the intention of this legislation, to raise money. The Bill is about protecting the vulnerable and, through more comprehensive regulation, allowing the public to be confident in the services they, their relative and their children are accessing. The costs, Madam President, have been allowed for within the budget of the Department, so 70 they will not cause any extra expense outside their budget. Madam President, as I first stated in the First and Second Readings, the Regulation of Care Bill introduces a single piece of legislation to deal with the regulation of the Island’s Social Care and non-National Health Service care services. These are services that deliver care to many of the most vulnerable in our communities. The Bill will now regulate services that did not exist when the 75 existing legislation was written. The bulk of the Bill includes previous legislation, in particular the Nursing and Residential Homes Act 1988, some parts of the Children and Young Persons Act relating to care homes, and the Nurses and Midwives Act 1947, which deals with nursing agencies. There are many new services since those Acts have been operating, in particular agencies providing personal care in 80 homes of the vulnerable. This Bill will give service users and their families complete confidence in the services being delivered. It will modernise and strengthen the current regulatory powers of the Department of Social Care, and importantly, it would allow the Department itself to have its own care services inspected, monitored and reported upon. 85 Previously Adult Services and Children’s Services were dealt with under different pieces of legislation and the Bill will create consistency in the regulation of Social Care and non-NHS care services. It will introduce a new approach to the registration and inspection of services, one which concentrates on their improvement and will target inspections to where they are most needed. It introduces new levels of enforcement, allowing for improvement notices, before going on to full 90 enforcement. To avoid a sudden overnight change, there are transitional clauses which allow the registration of new services and allow re-registration to be done over a period of time, which should ensure that businesses will be able to continue without interaction. The sudden changeover in the United Kingdom caused problems, when similar legislation was brought in there. For the first time, social 95 care workers and social workers will be registered with appropriate bodies and, importantly, the inspectors will be able to publish reports on services and premises, so that potential users and families will be able to judge the quality of services offered. Madam President, this Bill is important as we have been falling behind in regulation and in fact, some services provided for vulnerable people have not been able to be inspected and 100 monitored. Some do, though, submit to voluntary inspection. There have been recent care scandals in the UK and it is important that we have a robust system of regulation, inspection and monitoring, and this Bill provides a very sensible and reasonable approach to providing that. Madam President, finally, I would like to thank Mrs Diana Gordon and Sam McCauley of the 105 Department for the huge amount of work they have put in into progressing this Bill over recent years and having studied this subject, I think they have done an exemplary job. I also thank them for their support to the Council during the clauses stages of this Bill. Madam President, I beg to move that this Bill do pass.

110 Mr Lowey: Madam President, I take great pleasure in seconding this resolution. It is rather apt, isn’t it, in the light of this will be the last Bill that I will be actually seconding in my political career and what is it? It is about social justice. It is about putting in an Act that will safeguard the vulnerable and making and keeping up standards for the future. Could there be a more apt Bill that I would want a second? I think it is an excellent Bill. ______302 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

115 It seems a lot. It covers a huge spectrum. I believe in doing this and I think the Department deserves credit. You have mentioned individuals, but I think I would give credit to the whole Department for making and keeping up standards in a format that is more understandable by the very people that it will affect. Great pleasure in seconding. 120 The President: Hon. Mr Downie.

Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. I would just like to say that I fully support the Bill. One of the things that I think we are doing 125 here: there is so much reliance these days on the private sector, more and more caring and so on being devolved to that sector, and I think it is essential that care related businesses are properly regulated, and we have legislation which protects the sick and the vulnerable and those involved with providing childcare. I fully support the Bill, which does provide a regulatory framework which is easy to 130 understand, and it is a source of reference to people who will be working in that industry. I think that the Department and the draftsman should be congratulated on that because anyone who is working in that industry can refer to this. It is all spelt out here in easy to understand language, which I think is going to provide a very good system for the future. As I said, I am fully in support of the Bill. 135 The President: The mover to reply.

Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. I thank Mr Lowey for seconding the Bill throughout the clauses stages. It is indeed apt that he 140 is the person to second it, because my experience is that he has been the social conscience of Tynwald and this Council for many years. It is an apt Bill that he should be commenting upon. I thank him for his support. Mr Downie’s comments: he is right that more and more of the private sector will be undertaking this work. This Bill will actually be a tool for them to use – and they do support it, I 145 understand – because they will then be able to strive to make sure that when they are reported upon, they get a good result in the reports. This should make them perform better to actually advertise their services to the public because the better their report is, the more likely they are to be used. So I think this Bill is actually a tool to make the private sector perform to the highest level. I 150 thank him for his congratulations to the draftsman and those that formulated it. It has been going for many years, I understand in the Department and it has finally reached, hopefully, fruition today. I thank him for his support.

The President: The motion is that the Bill be read a third time and do pass. Those in favour, 155 please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Bribery Bill 2012 160 Second Reading approved

2. Mr Crowe to move:

That the Bribery Bill 2012 be read a second time. 165 The President: We turn now to the Bribery Bill, and I call on Mr Crowe to take the Second Reading.

Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. 170 The First Reading of this Bill took place on 12th February 2013, and I am grateful to Hon. Members for their support. In moving the Second Reading of the Bill, I think it is important to emphasise the international dimension to this Bill as much as the fact that it is very largely based on the UK’s Bribery Act 2010.

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175 The Island actively monitors its legislation to ensure that it complies with developing international standards. This is important not just for its standing in the world, but also for business. Businesses in other countries will be more willing to trade with the Island if it meets international standards. A good reputation is good for the Island’s self-image, particularly as it seeks increasingly to be responsible for its external relationships, rather than simply relying on the 180 good offices of the UK government. The Department was interested in receiving a response to the consultation on the Bill from the OECD, who commended the Island for considering this legislation. Some matters were raised during the First Reading debate. Mr Callister asked for clearer guidance as to the difference between this Bill and the current Corruption Act 2008. As mentioned 185 during the First Reading debate, I would like to make it clear the principle differences are that this Bill sets out specific offences of bribery; introduces a specific offence in relation to a commercial organisation failing to prevent bribery by any of its employees or any other person who works on their behalf, but there is a defence if adequate procedures are in place; and thirdly, but not least, this Bill is closely modelled on the UK Bribery Act 2010, which is regarded as setting best 190 practice in anti-bribery legislation. In answer to a question from Mr Turner, I can confirm there have been no prosecutions under the Corruption Act 2008. Madam President, I beg to move that the Second Reading of the Bribery Bill 2012 be approved. 195 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is, Hon. Members, that the Bribery Bill 2012 be read a second time. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 200

Bribery Bill 2012 Clauses considered 205 The President: We will take the clauses. Clauses 1 and 2.

Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. I would like to take and vote on clauses 1 and 2 together. 210 Clause 1 gives the short title of the Act as the Bribery Act 2013. Clause 2 provides that the Bill will be brought into operation by Appointed Day Order. It is anticipated that the Bill will be brought into operation within six months of the announcement of Royal Assent to Tynwald. Madam President, I beg to move that clauses 1 and 2 do stand part of the Bill. 215 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clauses 1 and 2 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 220 Clause 3.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 3 provides general interpretation of the terms in the Bill, and I beg to move that clause 3 do stand part of the Bill.

225 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clause 3 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 4. 230 Mr Crowe: Madam President, this clause and the subsequent two clauses define in greater detail key words or terms. Clause 4 defines the meaning of the term ‘relevant function or activity’ for the purposes of offences under this legislation. The term includes function of a public nature, business activity, 235 activity in connection with employment, and any activity performed by or on behalf of a body of ______304 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

persons. The person performing the function or activity is expected to do so in good faith or impartially. It is immaterial whether the function or activity is performed on or off the Island. Madam President, I beg to move that clause 4 do stand part of the Bill.

240 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clause 4 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 5. 245 Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 5 defines the meaning of the words ‘improper performance’. Essentially, this is where the function or activity – for example, the process of granting a contract – is not undertaken in good faith or impartially, or is not granted at all, despite the correct procedures being followed by the applicant. 250 Madam President, I beg to move that clause 5 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clause 5 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please 255 say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 6.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 6 defines the word ‘expectation’. This is the test of what a reasonable person in the Island would expect in relation to the performance of a function or 260 activity. We would not expect to have to pay a bribe in order to get a contract, obtain a job, get a passport, or have the service denied to us because we have not paid a bribe. Unless a particular additional action is set out in the written law of another country or territory, the fact that a bribe is part of the custom and practice of such place is irrelevant. Madam President, I beg to move that clause 6 do stand part of the Bill. 265 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clause 6 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 270 Clause 7.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 7 sets out the offence of bribing another person. It does not matter if the person bribed or offered the bribe is the same person as the person who is to perform, or who has performed, the function or activity. Nor does it matter if the advantage 275 offered or promised is made or given directly or via a third party. Madam President, I beg to move that clause 7 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

280 The President: The motion is that clause 7 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 8.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 8 makes it an offence to request, agree to receive or to 285 accept a financial or other advantage for the improper performance of an activity or function. It is also an offence to request, agree to, or merely allow another person to undertake the improper performance of the activity or function. The offence is committed irrespective of whether the person knows or believes he or she is performing the function improperly. Madam President, I beg to move that clause 8 do stand part of the Bill. 290 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clause 8 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 295 Clause 9.

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Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 9 makes it an offence to bribe a foreign public official. The person must intend to retain business or gain advantage in the conduct of business. The foreign official may have been influenced either to exercise or to fail to exercise functions, or 300 indeed to use his or her position to the company’s advantage. Madam President, I beg to move that clause 9 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

305 The President: The motion is that clause 9 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 10.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, under clause 10, if a person who is associated with a 310 commercial organisation commits a bribery offence for the benefit of that organisation, the organisation is also guilty of an offence. However, it is a defence for the organisation to show that it had adequate procedures in place designed to prevent those who work for the organisation, either as employees, contractors, agents or self-employed persons etc, from engaging in bribery to obtain, retain or further the business interests of the organisation. 315 Madam President, I beg to move that clause 10 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clause 10 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say 320 aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 11.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 11 defines the meaning of ‘associated’ person with regard to commercial organisations referred to in the previous clause. An associated person may 325 be, for example, an employee, agent, contractor or subsidiary of the organisation. Madam President, I beg to move that clause 11 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

330 The President: The motion is that clause 11 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 12.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 12 requires the Department to produce guidance that 335 relevant commercial organisations, referred to in clause 10, can put in place to prevent bribery. In the event that the Bill passes through the branches and Royal Assent is announced to Tynwald, the Department intends to prepare guidance material and consult with relevant representative parties. Once the material is ready, the Act will be brought in by Appointed Day Order and the guidance issued forthwith. 340 I beg to move clause 12 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Butt. 345 Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. Could I just have confirmation from the mover that all of part 2, which is the bribery offences, is actually repetitions of what is already in legislation in previous Corruption Acts, and there is nothing actually new in these offences extra to what was normally there before? Could I have 350 confirmation of that, please?

The President: Mr Lowey, did you wish to speak?

Mr Lowey: Yes. The only thing I was going to say is the Department, from time to time, 355 publishes revisions of guidance under the section. Who, in the Department, is doing that now – this really follows on from Mr Butt – and is that going to be a continuation of the same, or is it a new function? ______306 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

The President: The mover to reply. 360 Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. In Mr Butt’s case, I think there is a new clause to this. I think I mentioned that in the Second Reading.

365 Mr Callister: Part 2 provides some new offences in respect of bribery under clause 7. Sorry, I am speaking out turn, but it is there, Madam President.

Mr Crowe: So there are new offences under this Act. The existing ones are under clauses 13, 14 and 15, which I will come to, which are 5, 6 and 7 in the old Corruption Act 2008. So they have 370 brought those forward into this Act, but there are some new offences. As to the guidance, I think this is very important that the Department of Home Affairs do this, because there has to be a defence. If you are trading round the world and you have agents or managers, or officers of your company who may be prone to accusations of bribery, they have to be guided as to what is reasonable and what is not reasonable, so I think this guidance will be 375 published and it will be discussed with the Employers Federation, Chamber of Commerce and others who will have an interest, such as the Law Society. So I think it is vital that this is done before the Appointed Day Order comes into operation. As to the continuing guidance that Mr Lowey talks about, I think it is the Home Affairs Department – and I have with me Mr Bateman, who is the legislation officer who will pick up any 380 points that I do not cover, Mr Lowey. So, with that, I trust I have answered the queries in clause 12, Madam President, and so move.

The President: The motion is that clause 12 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 385 Part 3, clauses 13 to 15.

Mr Crowe: Thank you for allowing me to move these together, Madam President. These three clauses are current sections 5, 6 and 7 in the Corruption Act 2008, which is to be repealed by this Bill. 390 Clause 13 requires public officials on the Island to report attempts made to bribe them, either to a constable or, if procedures have been established, to their employer. Clause 14 makes it an offence for a public official to fail to report bribery under clause 13. Clause 15 makes it an offence to take action harmful to any person on the grounds the person has made a disclosure further to clause 13. 395 Madam President, I beg to move that clauses 13, 14 and 15 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The Hon. Mr Callister. 400 Mr Callister: Thank you, Madam President. Irrespective of the fact that this may well be in legislation now, what we are into here is something that is described, at times, as whistleblowing. Whistleblowing has had, I think, some pretty serious publicity in the past, in the UK, whereby people who have given information about 405 wrongdoing have subsequently lost their jobs or subsequently been downgraded, or whatever. It is a very difficult area, and when you come to subsection (2) here, it refers to:

‘A person… who knows or reasonably suspects, or ought reasonably to have known or reasonably to have suspected, that a person has committed, is committing or is about to commit an offence under this Act…’ 410 That is incredibly wide and open to extraordinary interpretation, and I do not know how that would be dealt with if a person was later told, ‘You should have known this, and why didn’t you?’ or ‘You did know it,’ and so on. It is a complex area legally, as far as I can see. Nevertheless, the point I wish to make is that, because of the way that whistleblowing has been 415 dealt with in the past, in some cases, it will make people reluctant to do this kind of reporting, if they think they can leave it alone.

The President: I think the code of practice probably assists people in knowing how to proceed. ______307 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

420 Does any other Member wish to speak?

Mr Butt: Madam President, I think – the mover might know this – under the Employment Act, we did have a clause about whistleblowing, where people in employment can have employment protected if they did become a whistleblower. Mr Downie took that through some years ago. I 425 think there was provision in the Employment Act to cover that.

The President: The Hon. Mr Wild.

Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. 430 I just make the observation that from the finance sector, this type of regulation is quite commonplace. I think in certain sectors of life people are already used to it, but I do agree with you entirely and I can think of a major clearing bank where somebody was whistleblowing and was bullied and harassed in the process. That went through the full course of investigation and the person who did the bullying and harassing left the organisation as unfit and improper. 435 Thank you.

Mr Braidwood: I think, Madam President, as well, under clause 13(4) and (5) – and Mr Butt has already touched on it – it says there with the Employment Act 2006, so there is protection.

440 The President: The mover to reply.

Mr Crowe: Thank you for your comments, Hon. Members. I think, as Mr Callister rightly says, it is a very complex area. This is a complete transfer of the clauses in the Corruption Act 2008, so what we have is the existing regulation. 445 Whistleblowing is a very difficult area. People have to be protected. Mr Butt raised this question and Mr Braidwood answered it. It is recited as a protected disclosure under subclause (5), and it is referred to as the Employment Act 2006, so it is covered in that Act. Although it is very complex, and there have not been any prosecutions under this Act,… but going forward, there has to be… in place to protect the businesses and to make people aware that it 450 is a crime if they act in a way which is not reasonable or good and fair practice. I also thank Mr Wild for his example in a banking situation. I think it is a difficult area, a complex area, but all we can do is introduce these very high standards internationally to protect businesses and to protect the individuals working for those businesses. 455 With those comments, Madam President, I would so move.

The President: The motion is that clauses 13, 14 and 15 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I think we will take clauses 16 and 17 together. 460 Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. Clause 16 ensures that prosecution of offences under this Act can only be brought by, or with the consent of the Attorney General. Clause 17 deals with penalties. 465 I beg to move that clauses 16 and 17 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clauses 16 and 17 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, 470 please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 18.

Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. Clause 18 provides that if a Manx resident or business does anything off Island that would 475 constitute an offence under this Act, then they are liable to be investigated and prosecuted as if the offence was committed on the Island. Madam President, I beg to move that clause 18 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. 480 ______308 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

The President: The motion is that clause 18 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 19.

485 Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. Clause 19 provides a defence for persons exercising any functions of an intelligence service, or as part of active service within the armed forces. I beg to move that clause 19 do stand part of the Bill.

490 Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that clause 19 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 20. 495 Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. Under clause 20, if a body corporate commits an offence under this legislation, other than an offence under clause 10, and the offence was committed with the consent or connivance, or is attributable to the neglect of an officer of the body corporate, then the officer, as well as the body 500 corporate, is liable to the penalty provided for the offence. Madam President, I beg to move that clause 20 do form part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

505 The President: The motion is that clause 20 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 21.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 21 provides for an offence under clause 10 to apply to a 510 partnership. I beg to move that clause 21 do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

515 The President: The motion is that clause 21 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 22.

Mr Crowe: Madam President, clause 22 requires proceedings for an offence under this 520 legislation to be instituted within 21 years of the alleged commission of the offence. I beg to move that this clause do stand part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

525 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Lowey.

Mr Lowey: Twenty-one years seems an awful long time to have a sword of Damocles hanging over your head. Is this the existing timeframe, or is it a new one – and why the length of time for… I know sometimes it takes a while for these things to come out of the woodwork, but 21 530 years does seem a particularly long time.

The President: The Hon. Mr Callister.

Mr Callister: Thank you, Madam President. 535 I was going to ask exactly the same question, and I wonder if someone of, shall we say 85, were to be carrying out a bribe… if they could drag it out to 21 years? They would get away with it anyway! But if it is in the existing Act, I think I would support it, I suppose, to continue, but I agree it seems an extraordinarily long time to have to deal with a case.

540 The President: The Hon. Mr Wild.

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Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. Just to make the observation, though, that if you look at war crimes, they can go back to the Second World War, and that is an incredibly long period of time, and if you look at the abuse 545 cases that we have just seen recently in the media, they go back an awful long time. So you could argue that, if there was genuinely bribery, or whatever, why shouldn’t that period of time apply?

Mr Lowey: But criminal tort is six years, if I think rightly, or seven years, and tax… there is nothing better than a tax man. I think he can only go back six years. It just jumps out of the page 550 as rather a long time.

Mr Wild: Worthy of debate.

The President: Mr Callister. 555 Mr Callister: If that is the case with tax and other areas, then if the bribery took place within those areas, where do we stand?

The President: Mr Butt. 560 Mr Butt: For serious criminal offences, there is no limitation whatsoever. (Mr Lowey: Is there not?) This is a serious criminal offence, in effect, so in a way this is a reduction of what normally would be there. Had it been a rape or a murder, or a theft, there is no limitation in time for proceedings, so this is a compromise, I would suggest. 565 The President: The mover to reply.

Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. It is interesting this clause should arouse interest and debate – which I am very happy to 570 respond to – because it was one of the issues in the Bill that I focused on when I was asked to take the Bill through. In fact, reading it over again last night, just to check the facts and the clauses, it occurred to me again this 21 years seemed to be a long time. So I e-mailed Mr Bateman at about 10 o’clock last night.

575 Mr Lowey: Great minds think alike!

Mr Crowe: The response from Mr Bateman, which I will read out, is:

‘Clause 22 has been inserted into the Bill in response to a suggestion from the OECD as a result of the consultation 580 process. The OECD submitted that, under article 6 of the Anti-Bribery Convention, there must be an adequate time for the investigation and prosecution of this type of offence. Twenty-one years was chosen because it accords with the provision in section 10B(2) of the Limitation Act 1984 relating to the recovery of property in pursuance of an external order. This may seem like a long time, but it is understood it can take a long time to obtain evidence if that evidence is required from another or certain other 585 jurisdictions. In fact, an OECD panel has recommended that there may be an argument for the limitation period being removed entirely in some cases. The Island has not followed this route, but the limitation period of 21 years is considered to strike an appropriate balance.’

590 I thank Mr Lowey for raising this, and Mr Callister also for raising this. I thank Mr Wild for talking about lengthier crimes, like war crimes and abuse cases, and I thank Mr Butt, who hit the nail on the head that there is no limitation on time on certain criminal cases. So I think the 21 years, although it sounds a lot, has hit a fair balance. With that, I so move, Madam President. 595 The President: The motion is that clause 22 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We will take part 5 in its entirety: clauses 23 to 26 and schedules 1 and 2.

600 Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President, for allowing me to do that. Taking clauses 23 to 26 together, as they are supplemental and final provisions of the Bill, clause 23 applies the Act to civil and public servants.

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Clause 24 provides for transitional arrangements with regard to any actions or legal proceedings which may have been commenced under the Corruption Act 2008 prior to this 605 legislation coming into operation. Clause 25 provides for schedule 1 to make consequential amendments to legislation, and also allows for schedule 2 to repeal legislation such as the Corruption Act 2008, which is no longer required as a result of this Bill coming into effect. Finally, Madam President, clause 26 provides for clause 25(1) and (2) and schedules 1 and 2 to 610 expire once the last of these provisions have been brought into operation. Madam President, I beg to move that clauses 23 to 26 inclusive and the schedules form part of the Bill.

Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. 615 The President: The Hon. Mr Butt.

Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President. You have just referred to schedule 2. I may be about to inherit Mr Lowey’s seat. I would like 620 to inherit his propensity to reminisce as well. Schedule 2 actually takes away clause 323 of the Criminal Code 1872, and when I first became involved with the law, 50 years ago now, the Criminal Code was almost the bible for criminal offences, and in there were all the old original offences, including this one. Reading the Criminal Code now, it is a lovely piece of English language and actually gives you 625 a real flavour of what life was like in those days. It is always a shame to see that Code being gradually hacked away at and reduced, and there is not much left now of it. I would recommend anybody to have a read of the Criminal Code some time and you will understand what I am saying. It is a shame to see it actually being reduced, but things do move on. Thank you, Madam President. 630 Mr Lowey: 1872, a good year.

The President: The mover to reply.

635 Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President. I must be starting to read my fellow Members. (Laughter) I anticipated Mr Butt asking this very question, as I wrote Mr Bateman in my e-mail last night:

‘In schedule 2, please let me have details of section 323 of the Criminal Code 1872, as it is the sort of question that 640 may be raised.’

Mr Butt: I don’t believe you!

Mr Lowey: Great minds! 645 Mr Crowe: So I thank Mr Butt for his reminiscing down police lanes, or whatever it is. I do not think he was alive in 1872, but during his career he worked through this Code as his bible of policing. Just reading it out from the Code, for interest: 650 ‘Whosoever shall bribe, or attempt to bribe, or in any way attempt to influence corruptly by promises, entertainment, or the like, any magistrate, arbitrator, referee, registrar, or person connected with the administration of justice, or a jury, or any of the jurors, to do anything contrary to the duties of his or their office, shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and being convicted thereof shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years and to a fine; and any 655 magistrate, registrar, arbitrator, referee, or person concerned in the administration of justice, or any juror, or any gaoler, coroner, sumner…’

– ‘sumner’ is not a word I have come across –

660 ‘… constable, or other officer, who shall directly or indirectly accept, or offer to accept any bribe, reward, present, or gratuity, to do anything contrary to the duty of his office, or for the forbearance of doing his duty, or for doing his duty, except in the ordinary and accustomed fee and charge, shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and being convicted there of shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years and to a fine.’

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665 It is interesting that 1872… I do not know… I cannot work quickly back in my mental arithmetic as to how long ago was that, but bribery and corruption were still prevalent.

Mr Braidwood: A hundred and forty-one years.

670 Mr Crowe: How many years?

The Lord Bishop: A sumner is in Chaucer.

Mr Butt: And isn’t the English good? The English is lovely. 675 Mr Crowe: So it is interesting that, whilst so many things change, we are revisiting something that was… I am not saying prevalent in 1872, but was made into the law to prevent anything like this happening. So I thank Mr Butt for his reminiscing. With that, I so move the clauses and the schedules, Madam President. 680 Mr Braidwood: It would be interesting to see what the ‘entertainment’ was.

The President: The motion is that clauses 23, 24, 25 and 26, along with schedules 1 and 2, do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have 685 it.

Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 690 First Reading approved

3. Mr Turner to move:

That the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 be read a first time. 695 The President: We turn now to the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill. I call on Mr Turner to take the First Reading.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. 700 I would at this point like to mention that later on, if Members are so minded to support me, I would be requesting the suspension of Standing Orders to enable further readings of the Bill to take place today. I will explain and set out the reasons for that after I have concluded this First Reading.

705 Mr Braidwood: It depends how many queenies and fish you can…!

Mr Turner: Now, a little bit of background here. The Fisheries Bill was first printed in its green form in 2010, and it seemed to take an absolute age to get through the process and eventually get Royal Assent. I think, after it had completed its passage through the branches, it 710 was quite some time before the Bill was actually granted Royal Assent and there were a few technicalities that were picked up by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ). So I will explain now how we have come to this Amendment Bill, because it has arisen out of those issues that they were picked up when the Bill went across the water. In the few days prior to the announcement of Royal Assent of this Bill, it was notified by the 715 MoJ that two particular sections of the Fisheries Act were not Human Rights compliant. Both of these non-compliant sections were a straight lift from the Inland Fisheries Act 1976, which was subjected to a Human Rights audit prior to the introduction of the Human Rights Act 2001. The particular provisions were not highlighted as requiring amendment at that time. Following discussions between the legislative drafter at our own AG’s Chambers and the 720 Ministry of Justice, it was agreed that the Department would give an undertaking not to implement those particular provisions within the Bill until the appropriate amendments had been made. The minor Amendment Bill introduces a defence into section 28 and provides for independent scrutiny in respect of section 81. Now, section 28 is to do with, in particular, the possession of certain equipment, for example 725 diving suits, snorkel mask or any diving equipment, and it was deemed that you would be ______312 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

committing an offence if you were in the vicinity. There was no provision in there for having a lawful excuse. So if you were living on the bank of a river, for example, you would be committing an offence and ‘that’s the end of it’. There was no provision in there and that was picked up by the MoJ. Further on in the Bill, there was an issue with regard to forfeiture of such equipment and the 730 disposal. So I am happy to discuss any questions Members would have, but that is the principle behind this Amendment Bill for First Reading. With that, I beg to move the Bill be read a first time.

735 Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The Hon. Mr Callister.

Mr Callister: Thank you, Madam President. 740 I just want to ask if this Bill has been brought forward in response to a recent local case and if so, are there some details we could have of that?

The President: The mover to reply.

745 Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. This issue was rumbling on prior to that. As I said, it was something that was picked up when the Bill went over to the MoJ for the Royal Assent procedure. It is unfortunate that some of these issues were not ironed out, because I understand that draft versions of these Bills are put through the MoJ before they even get off the first base. However, it 750 was not picked up and subsequently it was. It is interesting, the time that this Bill has taken and it was certainly one of my… It is quite apt that it is here today on my last sitting of this term, because this was one of the major pieces of work I was involved with at DAFF and then DEFA when it was formed. It was quite a milestone for Fisheries to be able to consolidate the legislation, because previously they had two: they had 755 the Sea Fisheries legislation and as the Hon. Member, Mr Downie will recall from his time as Minister Department; and they also had the Inland Waters. What they have done is brought it all together. So there was considerable amount of work going on in this Bill and I think it was just something that was overlooked because of the more serious issues that the Bill deals with, such as 760 our territorial waters and the wider sea fishing industry, and maybe this, what is effectively… well, completely a domestic issue of inland waters was maybe overlooked. It does not have anything… it has not been brought forward just because of that recent local case. It was already in the pipeline as being flagged up. So I hope I have answered Mr Callister’s query there and I beg to move. 765 The President: The motion is that the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 be read the first time. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

770 Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 Standing Order 4.3(2) suspended to take remaining stages at this sitting

775 The President: Mr Turner.

Mr Turner: Madam President, I would like to seek the indulgence of Hon. Members to allow me to suspend Standing Orders. I would like to make the case for a number of reasons. First of all, obviously, this is the final sitting I will be attending until we know the outcome of the election to 780 this place; but also this is a technical amendment and I feel it has merit because of the nature of the Bill, not simply because it is convenient for the Department to get this through whilst I am here today. I think it is the type of legislation that we can debate today the reasons for, and I hope I can make a strong enough case as to why we can deal with this in a quicker than usual manner. I am not one of the supporters of rushing through legislation, as we know from past debates, 785 but I think this particular piece… It is short, it is very clear what it sets out to do and I hope

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Members will permit the suspension of Standing Orders to take the Bill through to its conclusion in this place.

The President: The motion to suspend Standing Orders: is that agreed Hon. Members? 790 Members: Agreed.

Mr Braidwood: Madam President, I think, as Mr Turner has said, it is a technical issue to put right something which, in the primary legislation, had been overlooked in the Ministry of Justice. 795

Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 Second Reading approved 800 The President: That being the case, we will move on then to the Second Reading. Mr Turner.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President, and I very much appreciate Members for agreeing to the suspension of Standing Orders. 805 So as I have previously said, in the First Reading, the Bill makes two minor amendments to the Fisheries Act 2012, to address issues identified by the Ministry of Justice in respect of compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights. The sections identified as being non-compliant were a straight lift from the Inland Fisheries Act 1976 and, as I said before, that was subjected to a Human Rights audit prior to the introduction of the Human Rights Act 2001. 810 So the Minister for the Department did give an undertaking not to commence those provisions until these anomalies had been corrected. As I said a few moments ago, there was considerable amount of work went into this Bill and it would have been a shame to have hit the stumbling blocks after the whole process had gone through, so I think it was a very pragmatic way of dealing with it. It was a straight error that had not been picked up, but it has now and obviously, here we 815 are with this Amendment Bill before us. The Bill introduces a defence into section 28 and provides for independent scrutiny in respect of section 81, which is the forfeiture. I am sure all Hon. Members would agree that it is in the interests of natural justice that if somebody is accused of an offence, they do have the right to put forward that defence and the wording is adjusted slightly to allow that provision, by way of this 820 Amendment Bill. So I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.

The President: Do we have a seconder?

825 Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that the Bill now be read a second time. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

830

Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 Clauses considered

835 The President: We move to clauses.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President.

The President: Take clauses 1 and 2 together. 840 Mr Turner: Clauses 1 and 2 together, yes. Clause 1 introduces the Bill and clause 2 identifies that this Bill will amend the Fisheries Act 2012. I beg to move clauses 1 and 2 stand part of the Bill. 845 Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. ______314 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

The President: The motion is that clauses 1 and 2 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 3. 850 Mr Turner: Clause 3 amends section 28 of the Fisheries Act 2012 by introducing a defence into that section. At present as drafted, the section of the Act would mean that an individual living next to a river who possesses a snorkel and a mask, for example, would be guilty of an offence. The defence is introduced in order to be compliant with Human Rights. 855 I beg to move that clause 3 stand part of the Bill.

Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The Hon. Mr Crowe. 860 Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President, Yes, I fully support this. Obviously, there has to be defence and there has to be reasonable justification for a person to allow them to hold certain equipment, which otherwise would be caught as a criminal offence. 865 Obviously, this is to be supported, Madam President.

The President: Lord Bishop.

The Lord Bishop: Thank you, Madam President. 870 I am just interested in the word ‘excuse’, because it implies that something actually has been done wrong. ‘Cause’ or ‘reason’ might have been a less pejorative word. But I am happy to support it.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Wild. 875 Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. Just for the sake of clarification in my mind, if we lived by the Sulby River or wherever, my son has got a full set of diving gear, because that is his hobby. At the moment, under this legislation, he could be committing an offence. (Mr Turner: Yes.) (Interjection by Mr Lowey) 880 Right. Even though it is in the garage, just hung up and will be driven to Port St Mary where he goes diving.

Mr Braidwood: And dives for scallops!

885 The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Callister.

Mr Callister: The hon. mover referred to snorkelling. I had not associated catching fish with snorkelling – it may be a bad example, I don’t know! Presumably, if you were walking along with a fishing rod and a bag associated and the tools of fishing, that would be more appropriate 890 perhaps! Thank you, Madam President.

The President: The mover to reply.

895 Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President, and I thank Members. This is one of those cases where wording can actually cause consequences that nobody had thought of. I think it is quite interesting that… We used to live at the back of the River Glass and as kids we would be swimming in the river in the summer and I have gone snorkelling in the river, 900 because that is what you do, as kids – but we were not fishing. There are things like this that the Bill was completely rigid on and as Mr Wild said, if you lived on the bank of the river, the wording was such that it completely made things an offence that it never intended to make an offence. This is clearly aimed at the poaching activities of snorkelling and trying to snare fish. So I think, whilst the reasonable person would say ‘Oh, it’s the Fisheries Bill, it is all designed 905 about poaching’, that is not actually what it said. So it is about tidying up the legislation. I know the Hon. Mr Lowey has said for a long time, something I agree with: the man in the street should be able to pick up our legislation and know what it means. This is just correcting that. ______315 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

So I thank Members for their support and beg to move clause 3 stand part of the Bill.

910 The President: The motion is that clause 3 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Clause 4.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. 915 Clause 4 provides that a Justice of the Peace can make a decision in relation to disposing of anything forfeited under the Fisheries Act 2012. This provision does not apply to forfeitures made on conviction in a court of law. Prior to this amendment, the power lay with the Department, which is not considered to be Human Rights compliant. I beg to move clause 4 stand part of the Bill. 920 Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The Hon. Mr Wild.

925 Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. Sorry, I should have asked this previously: just out of interest, what is the definition of a ‘river’? (Interjections)

The Lord Bishop: It is in the Act, isn’t it? 930 Mr Braidwood: It is in the primary Act.

Mr Wild: I am thinking on the basis that if you have got a wide stream that has little brown trout in, would that fall within the definition of river? (Interjections) 935 The Lord Bishop: I think we did this –

Mr Crowe: We did, yes –

940 Mr Wild: Sorry, I am just very interested, it is an extreme bit of legislation.

The President: The Hon. Mr Callister.

Mr Callister: Just that Mr Wild might be interested that a former Member of Tynwald, Mr 945 Walter Gilbey once claimed that have no rivers in the Isle of Man, only streams!

Mr Wild: Thank you!

Mr Lowey: Sulby River was about the only one that qualified, under Mr Gilbey’s… 950 The President: I think the mover may wish… Ah, our Clerk has a definition.

Mr Turner: I do, Madam President.

955 The Clerk: You may be looking in the same place as me: section 18(5)? Or perhaps there is a wider definition somewhere else.

The President: There are rivers defined by the Water Authority.

960 The Clerk: In the Fisheries Act 2012, for what it is worth, there is a provision about moving materials from the bed of any river, in section 18, which is an offence, and in this section, ‘river’ means any natural or artificial channel through which water flows, and includes a tributary or stream.

965 Mr Lowey: It may be a stream to you, but it is a river!

The President: The mover to reply.

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Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President, and I thank the Clerk for his helpful remarks there. 970 I actually brought the… I kept the pack from when I put the Bill through originally, with all the information in anticipation of some challenging questions which I am delighted we have had. With reference to the removal of material, that is mainly designed – the Clerk mentioned – to stop people digging through rivers to upset spawning fish. So if there was pipework going on or dredging, that was that. 975 The phrase ‘inland waters’ is used throughout the main Act and that includes any river, lake, pond, pool, reservoir, watercourse or estuary, but does not include any part of the sea. So it is a catch-all thing: any bit of water that fish will swim in, apart from a goldfish bowl, I would imagine. (Laughter and interjections)

980 Mr Braidwood: It would be hard to dive in that!

Mr Turner: It could be a big bowl! So thank you, Madam President. I beg to move that clause 4 stand part of the Bill.

985 The President: The motion is that clause 4 do stand part of the Bill. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Mr Turner: Clause 5 provides that this amending Act will be repealed once the amendments made by it have commenced and the Act has been promulgated. 990 I beg to move that clause 5 stand part of the Bill.

The President: Do we have a seconder?

Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks. 995 The President: The motion is that clause 5 stand part of the Bill. Those in favour say aye, against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

1000 Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 Third Reading approved

Mr Turner: Do I need to suspend – ? 1005 The President: I think we did suspend for the purpose of the whole process, so we will carry on with the Third Reading, Hon. Member.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. 1010 Again, I thank Members for their support in taking these provisions through. This Bill, as I said, makes two amendments which we have discussed this morning, to the Fisheries Act 2012. It introduces the defence into section 28, where possession of certain items near a river are permitted in certain circumstances; and to provide for independent scrutiny, where items are forfeited under the Act that are to be disposed of . 1015 I beg to move that the Bill be read a third time and do pass.

Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion is that the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2012 be read a third time 1020 and do pass. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. That concludes consideration of legislation this morning.

1025

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Tributes to outgoing Members, Mr Callister, Mr Lowey, Mr Turner and Mr Wild Motion carried

1030 4. Mr Downie to move:

That Council do express its appreciation of the parliamentary, governmental and other public service of Mr Callister, Mr Lowey, Mr Turner and Mr Wild who shortly vacate office as Members. 1035 The President: We turn now to Item 4 and I call on Mr Downie to move the motion standing in his name.

Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. 1040 Could I first of all say I consider this a both a privilege and pleasure to have been asked to say a few words about my colleagues on their last official day in office. David Callister was elected to the Legislative Council in March 2008 and, as a former radio reporter and political presenter and someone who has had over 30 years’ experience of attending Tynwald and following Manx politics, he was able, as it were, to hit the ground running. 1045 He has served in the Department of Health, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry from 2009 and on the Department of Transport. He has also been Vice-Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading, the Civil Service Commission and was a member of the MEA Select Committee. Since his election in 2008, he has taken 10 Bills through the Legislative Council and has made 1050 numerous valuable contributions to items such as animal health, constitution, harbours, sewerage, public sector pensions, road races, building control, road traffic and highways. However, he was unsuccessful in bringing forward his Private Member’s Electoral Reform Bill, which was lost at the clauses stage. It seems to me a little ironic, where on one hand, he was trying to remove an entire species of 1055 Tynwald Members and on the other hand, took great pleasure in moving the Endangered Species Bill for the Department of Agriculture! (Laughter) David has brought a vibrant and positive approach to Council. He is still an active broadcaster and folk musician and I am sure you will join with me in wishing David and his wife, Ann, a long and happy retirement. 1060 Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Callister: Thank you very much.

1065 Mr Downie: Edmund George Lowey – Eddie, as we know him – was elected to the House of Keys at the by-election in Rushen in 1975, re-elected in 1976 and 1981 and then elected to this Council in 1982, and has been re-elected ever since. On reading his biography, his membership of Government Departments and Tynwald Committees are far too numerous to mention. He has been Minister for Industry, Home Affairs, 1070 Minister without Portfolio, Chairman of the Consumer Council from 1976 to 1981, the Tourist Board from 1981 to 1986, and most recently, the Chairman of the Isle of Man Electricity Authority. He was awarded an honorary Master of Arts degree from Salford University, where I know he was for many years a highly regarded member of that court. He served on many Tynwald and 1075 former Executive Council Committees, including Overseas Aid, the EU Committee when the EU was in its infancy, and the Constitution and External Affairs Committee. He has also been a great supporter of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, and his work in this area has enabled him to build up many parliamentary contacts and friends worldwide. He has been a regional representative of the British Islands and Mediterranean on at least two 1080 occasions and the Isle of Man Branch Chairman from 1990 to 2007. He is also a past Vice- Chairman of the Manx Labour Party. The parliamentary expression ‘Father of the House’ is a very appropriate term when referring to Eddie. He has been a father figure to many Tynwald Members for almost 40 years. He has been a good friend, adviser, mentor and confidant to many Members, always available for help and 1085 encouragement, but with an invaluable knowledge of all things appertaining to Government in general, and proceedings of Tynwald Court in particular. ______318 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

From such a humble beginning, this boy from Duke Street in Peel and part of a very large family brought up in wartime conditions, Eddie had to leave the Isle of Man as a youngster to seek work including, amongst other things, docking sugarbeet. Times were very different then in the 1090 Isle of Man, and it is from that background, I am sure Eddie developed his strong desire to make things better for the ordinary working man. He is what I would call a man of the old Labour movement with proud principles, firm convictions, looking for fairness for the less well-off in our society, and always prepared to remind us that we do need to have a social conscience. Thanks to Eddie and those who work with them, the Isle of Man is a much better place, where we can be 1095 proud of our inclusive community. His other great interest is sport, where he has worked tirelessly to encourage many new facilities and was very much involved in the Year of Sport. For many years, he was a Football Association referee, but as he will tell you, he has handed in his whistle and is now the official maker of the tea at halftime at Malew Football Club. 1100 For someone who has never had the benefit of anything other than a basic education, he has a remarkably active brain. He is always seeking new knowledge, and is one of the best communicators I know. He is very well read and has the ability to engage with everyone from the man in the street to those with the highest intellect in the land. I am sure you all agree we will miss his quotes from history and poetry, but I think you will concur with me that Eddie Lowey has 1105 made a tremendous contribution to this Council, Tynwald Court and the well-being of the greater community of the Isle of Man. We wish him a long and happy and active retirement.

Members: Hear, hear.

1110 Mr Downie: Juan Turner was first elected to the Council in 2007 and re-elected in 2008. From his previous experience in broadcasting and television, he quickly settled into the reverie of Tynwald and of Government. He is currently a member of the Department of Education and Children, and also the Department of Community, Culture and Leisure, with responsibilities for sport, the Wildlife Park and Manx National Heritage. 1115 Juan has also served in the Department of Trade and Industry, Department of Transport, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and the Department of the Environment. He has also served on Tynwald Committees, including the Steam Packet Committee 2007-08, the Poacher’s Pocket, the Steam Packet 2009 and the Select Committee on Advertising in the Countryside. 1120 He gained experience on Council of Ministers’ Committees which were involved with Infrastructure and Environment, the Business Change Steering Group and the Young Persons Working Group. Perhaps unusual for a Member of the Legislative Council, Juan was successful in bringing forward a Private Member’s Bill, the Children and Young Persons (Amendment) Bill 2012. Juan has also made his mark in Tynwald and I understand is offering himself for re-election. 1125 I am sure you will join with me in wishing Juan every success for the future.

Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Downie: Finally, Tony Wild was elected to the Legislative Council in December 2011 and 1130 although he has been with us for a comparatively short time. He has been an active and enthusiastic Member of the Legislative Council. He has served on the Department of Education and Children, and on the Department of Economic Development, where he has been able to put his banking and finance skills to good use. Tony is totally committed to the Isle of Man and offers himself for re-election and we wish 1135 him well in the future.

Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Downie: Members of Council, I am sure you will join with me in thanking the outgoing 1140 Members for their hard work and service in the Legislative Council and wish them every success in the future, whatever it may hold for them. Thank you.

The President: The Hon. Mr Callister. 1145 Mr Callister: Thank you Madam President –

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Mr Butt: I beg to second, Madam President –

1150 The President: You are going to second.

Mr Butt: – and reserve my remarks. (Laughter) Because I wish to make some comment…

The President: Yes. 1155 Mr Callister: I thank Mr Downie for the kind remarks that he made in respect of the four retiring Members, two of whom are not going to be retiring Members, as we know and we will find out for certain, I hope, on Thursday evening. But there is, of course, one Member who has been given glowing tributes so far – earlier this 1160 morning outside the Chamber as well – but I think there are a few facts that you might not be quite aware of about this gentleman, who, in the photographs that I saw this morning, had quite a considerable amount of hair. (Mr Lowey: I did.) Some of that seems to have disappeared. However, he does admit to being a Gobbag. (Mr Lowey: Yes.) That was an unfortunate expression that was used for people from Peel, but Mr Lowey wears that as a badge of pride. (Mr 1165 Lowey: Absolutely.) He was brought up in Peel. He had his tin bath to bathe in, which we all had at that time. He had an outside toilet of course, and he remembers once when he was a very young child seeing the Italian internees there, (Mr Lowey: Rioting.) rioting. They were holding a riot because they were calling for more – as Mr Lowey told me – conjugal rights.

1170 Mr Lowey: That’s right, true. I didn’t know what it meant. (Laughter and interjections) I still don’t know what it is! (Laughter)

Mr Callister: Still as a child, the family moved to Ballasalla. He was to be brought up there in a Nissen hut. If people do not know what Nissen huts are, (Interjections) they are former army 1175 buildings, in fact, with round galvanised roofs. (Interjections) So I think everybody realises what they are.

Mr Lowey: Didn’t need the weather forecast!

1180 Mr Callister: He was brought up there with several other siblings. A heating system in the school was a combustion fire in the middle of the room – a stove, in other words – which was also the heating in his home. He told me he remembers vividly the ‘Big Snow’ of 1947, when he was wearing clogs (Mr Lowey: Absolutely.) and the snow was building up underneath the clogs and he got taller! 1185 (Laughter) A lot of people wore clogs in those days, in any case. The Big Snow of 1947 was a bitter winter and it was followed by a gloriously hot summer in 1948. We were both there. In the family, they had two dogs, a cat and a ferret. The ferret was for rabbiting, because in the wartime, rabbits were an essential part of the food that people had in the countryside. Mr Lowey said to me that every time he saw a rabbit in those days, he didn’t see a rabbit; he saw half a 1190 crown, because that was the money that they used to receive for them! (Laughter) So he was a good rabbit hunter. He also was an organ pumper, the Bishop will be interested to hear. He took part in a show as a blackfaced minstrel, blacked up properly like G H Elliot! He was an apprentice gardener at Rushen Abbey. He did farm work, used to pick spuds and do all sorts of other farm jobs as well. 1195 Then when he went to his proper job, he went to what used to be called Martin Baker’s but of course, we know it now as the Ronaldsway Aircraft Company. During that time, I think his interest in politics arose because that is when he joined the Labour Party, and became a very well established member of the Labour Party, because at that time it was some force to be reckoned with, in fact. 1200 As a football referee, which the mover has referred to, I understand he never won the Referee of the Year award – but I leave you to work out what that means! (Laughter) He did become a member of Tynwald, of course, back in 1976 in a by-election. He told me at that time 4,000 people were out of work in the Isle of Man. (Mr Lowey: Absolutely.) He came into Tynwald through that by-election – 1975, not 1976 – and he has been here ever since. And I 1205 think we are all pleased that he has been here ever since. So, Edmund George Lowey, I think is a man for all seasons.

Members: Hear, hear. ______320 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

1210 The President: The Hon. Mr Butt.

Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President, I will just say a few words about the Members who are leaving us – some temporarily, hopefully. 1215 Firstly, Mr Callister who has just spoken: I do not have anything prepared, Mr Callister, but I have found he is a man of a very enquiring mind, and when he comes to Council, he always has prepared himself ready for it. He asks questions which no-one else has thought of and it is a tribute to him that, even at his… I wouldn’t say, ‘great age’, but he is so keen and committed enough to actually research things and look things up and put his effort into it. 1220 I have worked with him on the MEA Select Committee, as I think you yourself did, Madam President, and he has a very enquiring mind. I think the word to use… He likes a bit of ‘skeet’, I think is the word. (Laughter) He wants to know what is going on. I often look round the Tynwald Chamber and think, ‘Who would I have with me in my CID as a Member with me from this Tynwald Chamber?’ – and I would definitely have Mr Callister with me, (Laughter and 1225 interjections) because he would find things out and he would look into things. I think he has been a great contributor to both Tynwald and particularly this Council. I know he was, in the Committee I worked with him on, so I think he has been a worthy asset. He came into it late in life and I do not think… He could have sailed through it, without doing a lot of work but he has worked hard, and I am sure the Departments he has worked in appreciate it too. I think he 1230 has been a great addition to this Council.

Mr Callister: Thank you.

Mr Butt: Mr Turner has become a friend of mine, sitting next to me. We do not agree 1235 politically on things always, but again, his performance in this Council, I think anybody who has been here will agree, he has taken through some very complex Bills. He has always done them very well. (Mr Callister: Hear, hear.) (Mr Lowey: Absolutely.) He has researched things properly, and he is a very, very able performer in here. He took his own Bill through from here, which is now being progressed through the other place at this moment, I believe – through today, 1240 perhaps. He has shown initiative in doing that and actually got up and did something and made something happen. I really appreciate his support in Council over the last few years, and his performance in Tynwald, also: he stands up and makes a speech and he does it very well. He is coherent, he says everything that he needs to say, and I think what he says is listened to. Some Members are not 1245 listened to; Mr Turner, I think is always listened to. I wish him well in his re-election. (Mr Callister: Hear, hear.) Mr Wild, again, I see as a bit of a lifeboat. The last couple of years we have had some very complex financial Bills come through here, and when I am starting to sink a bit, I look toward Mr Crowe and now Mr Wild, to try to see… if they understand it, maybe we are okay! I know his 1250 work in the Department is well appreciated. I have heard lots of good reports about his work in the Department of Economic Development, where his skill and expertise has come to the fore. I wish him well in the future, as well. Finally, we come to Mr Lowey, who I first met – Mr Callister went through this – I think at Ronaldsway Aircraft, when he was the scorer for the cricket team. (Mr Lowey: That’s right.) His 1255 brothers play cricket. I used to play cricket against them, where they were all gentlemen – unlike when on the football field, they weren’t gentlemen! Mr Lowey was the scorer and he organised things and he was obviously the hub of Ronaldsway cricket team at the time. I then met him for many years on the football field where he was a referee and we had words a few times! I don’t know if he remembers or not, but we certainly had words over some incidents. (Mr Lowey: 1260 Healthy discussions.) But I remember on one occasion, I did have words with him, and I got quite heated, during the heat of the game, and at that time, he was Chairman of the Police Board. (Laughter and interjections) When I got to halftime, I was thinking, ‘I should not perhaps have said that!’ But I survived and so did he. Again, everything has been said about Mr Lowey, and his work within this parliament. 1265 Obviously in the Council, here, he has been the main man. He takes through complex Bills, he knows what he is talking about. He asks good questions. In Tynwald, he is again the supreme performer. He turns the House, on occasions. I sit and listen to him and think he has got the mood right and he turns people’s views and he makes debates shape. He sometimes stops debates, he gets things withdrawn when they are going nowhere and we really need that sort of person in 1270 there, and he will be greatly missed. ______321 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

His help and support to me over the last few years has been immense. He has set a great example and given personal support – I am sure he has to everybody – and I will miss that very much. I think one thing he will be missed for: he is actually in the Treasury at the moment, where we 1275 have had monetary problems, and he is the man, I think, in Treasury now who has, as Mr Downie said, the social conscience to actually say to the people dealing with money, ‘Wait a moment, there is another side to this. There is the welfare of the people who we are looking after.’ I think Mr Lowey has been probably a very useful addition to Treasury over the last two or three years and he will be sorely missed in that Department, I am sure – as he will be missed by everybody. 1280 So I thank him for his support to me and to us and the Council over the years. Thank you, Madam President.

The President: Mr Lowey.

1285 Mr Lowey: Could I just finally say, for my three colleagues… First of all, can I say to Dudley, the seat is broken in for you, because he is now going to become the senior Member of the Council, would you believe! Isn’t that remarkable?

The President: On that side! 1290 Mr Lowey: On this side – (Laughter and interjections)

Mr Butt: By two weeks.

1295 Mr Lowey: By two weeks. But the seat is warm for you! This is my natural habitat, obviously since 1982 and as Richard Attenborough would say, ‘He is quite comfortable in this habitat.’ I am only comfortable because I am with friends. We have our differences, but as soon as we finish that debate, we are still friends, even though we may have disagreed on the piece of paper that is before us. 1300 Can I say about David and Tony and Juan: to Juan and Tony, I do wish them success in their re-election. You have earned it in a very short time and my judgement of you is that you are first class, you have hit – David, you said – the ground running. All I can say is ‘Boys – you’ve done well, boys!’ You have hit the ground running and if you are looking for an agent for your re- election, I have already started. I have already started! (A Member: You’re hired!) 1305 Can I come to David. What do I say about David? I was going to say he is as sound as a pound, but there is an awful lot of a run on the pound, just in the last… So I had better lay off the pound bit. Then I thought, ‘Well, he’s as sound as a euro’ – and I know how much he loves the euro, so I thought, ‘Oh, no that will not do at all!’ (Laughter) So I just put that: he is a sound man and I do endorse everything that has been said about his 1310 contribution here. I never had the pleasure of working with David in a board, but I do recognise his contribution especially round this table, in legislation. Most of the people who come into these places think it is Question Time on the radio, that is all we do. We do not. This is important and David has contributed a lot. Can I say them, I hope you are still going to be doing your radio programme, you are not 1315 disappearing from that! I do my ironing – or I used to do my ironing on a Saturday morning at 10 past six, listening to David Callister – door open on a summer’s day with the ironing board and the iron. Nobody irons, now; it is all drip dry.

Mr Braidwood: I don’t; my wife does! (Laughter) 1320 Mr Lowey: I know, but when you are a bachelor, you have got to do these things! I have to do it now. My whole world was shoved upside down when they moved the timescale round – it is now a Sunday morning. So at 10 past six on a Sunday morning, it is ironing time. I know, Robert, this will shock you – (Interjection by the Lord Bishop) but I will be doing that. 1325 From pumping the organ to ironing shirts, there is a long way! One ex-Member here used to say, ‘All the way from Tynwald Street to Tynwald Hill’. Well, I have gone from pumping the organ to ironing on a Sunday. I think there is a parallel there! He also knows – where he got all this information from, I do not know, but it is true, most of it. The only thing he has not declared today is that if Dusty Springfield had played her cards right, 1330 I could have left home for her! I was madly in love with Dusty Springfield. (Laughter) There is another confession I do not mind making! ______322 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

And the other one was – he does not know about this, but I will confess it – for 25 years, I was either the chairman or on the organising committee for the TT Races. So for 25 years of its centenary, I was actually involved in the TT Races. My secret which never got out – it is a good 1335 job Twitter was not about – I was a mod. As you can see from the hair, I had the hair style for a mod, didn’t I? I was a mod. I rode a scooter! Can you imagine saying to the boys in leather that they were being controlled, if you like, by a mod? I only gave up being a mod, because in those days… You remember the winklepickers, the shoes with the pointy toes? Well, my feet – I am not going to show you – are not made for pointy 1340 shoes, so I had to get out of that one very quickly! (Laughter) There is the story of my life. It has been a remarkable journey. You have been far too kind to me in the contributions that I have made to public life. What I do know is – and I have said it so many times – ‘you put in before you take out’. That is for life. The one thing that I… I know he is not retiring and he is not going anywhere, but I do urge 1345 people, when we talk about the reformation of this Chamber, to remember the role that the Bishops play. I am a non-conformist, organ pumper – I did it for the money, Robert! I did it for the money, sixpence. I cannot say it was religion; it wasn’t. It was the filthy lucre, sixpence a week for pumping… (Laughter and interjections) I am in excellent company, but I did it for filthy lucre. But the role of the Bishop, I have come to really… We have had Bishops who have been what 1350 I would call the saintly, book-wormy scholars, we have had other flamboyant bishops, but I can say genuinely, in the last three or four Bishops we have had, we have had some really first-class pastors and leaders of the churches in Man, and Robert is certainly… They are treasures that we can ill afford to do without, in our deliberations on legislation. Get rid of us, by all means, but make sure you retain the Bishop, because I do believe that is very, very important. 1355 It may be a historic – what is the word? – ‘anachronism’, but it does not belittle the added worth that they contribute to our deliberations. I am very, very much a pro-Bishop man and I would urge all successors to think of that. Thank you. That is the last word you are going to hear from me. All I can say is I wish Juan and Tony nothing but success. I hope you are a ‘shoo-in’, let me put it that way. You have 1360 contributed a lot. To David, by gum, mate – you’re a good disc jockey! And I am going to ride off into the sunset and enjoy it. Cheers!

The President: Lord Bishop. 1365 The Lord Bishop: Madam President, thank you very much. I am a relative newcomer to this Court and Council; but in the last five years, I want to say that the four colleagues who are, at least in theory, leaving us – two definitely leaving us, and two we hope will come back again – they, along with the others, have been a tremendous support that I 1370 have felt, being slightly the odd one out, in that I am not as much involved in the procedures of Governments and so forth. But I want to pay particular tribute to Mr Lowey, because he has been, for somebody coming in to an environment which is very different from anything that I had experienced before, not only a very good friend, but also a very good colleague. It is good to hear that he was pumping out air 1375 right at the beginning of his life – and still is! (Laughter) I would just like to end with a little story. You will understand that any story a Bishop tells is obviously 100% true, but I heard Mr Lowey in conversation with an elderly lady the other day, and she was saying, ‘You know, Mr Lowey, when you leave the Legislative Council, we shall miss you so much. I don’t know what we’ll do, nobody will replace you’, and he said, ‘Oh, no, I 1380 can tell you that whoever comes in after me will be, I’m sure, at least as good as me, if not better.’ She said, ‘Oh, don’t rely on that, Mr Lowey – that’s what we said the last time’! (Laughter) So I just wish our four colleagues well and the two who are standing for re-election particularly.

1385 The President: Mr Turner.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. It has been a great privilege and honour to actually sit around this table. I like to look at old photographs and you look at the actual history of this room, when you look through the pictures, 1390 and think that you are privileged enough to have a seat at this famous table. I think – Mr Callister will probably know – I was the youngest ever person on Legislative Council and when Mr Lowey entered the House of Keys, I was actually one year of age. I do ______323 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

remember coming with the school and sitting on those seats there, having a tour around the Legislative Buildings many years ago, and it is good to see the schools are keeping that up. 1395 That is something we are trying to encourage within the Department of Education: that the teaching of Manx should be all about our culture, not just the language. It should be everything about the history and more teaching about our constitutional links with the Crown, because that something else which I feel quite passionate about and think that a lot of people still do not know what our link with the Crown is. 1400 But it has been a great privilege to be part of this historical institution. It was mentioned before that I think, outside these four walls, probably a large percentage of the public do not actually know what we do and it is unfortunate that, in the years I have been here, very few times have we had the media in here reporting on our work. I think to the majority of people, the passage of legislation is probably quite mundane. It is probably quite uninteresting, but of course a lot of the 1405 legislation will not ever touch their lives. It is to do with the more corporate side, but there is a great deal of legislation that does affect people’s lives, and it is our job obviously to make sure that that legislation works. I came here, I was fortunate to be elected in May 2007. There was a long period of elections where there was no result. It was a conversation I had with Quintin Gill, who was my first 1410 proposer to this role and my seconder was Anne Craine. I am forever grateful to both of them for putting their names forward as nominating and seconding me. It has been not without challenge, having a young family and juggling the job has taken its toll at times, but you get through those periods and it has certainly, regardless of that, still been very rewarding. As Mr Callister… Mr Downie mentioned, sorry, we served on many Departments, I 1415 was determined to try and get involved in as many Departments as I could to get the experience and the first one was the Department of Trade and Industry. I was proud to have brought forward a very early scheme for NEETs and that is developed into more of a serious issue that we need to tackle going forward. I know our colleague, Mr Wild, has been in that arena since his appointment to the new DED. 1420 Select Committees I have found thoroughly interesting, and I think it was my first day in Tynwald, I was appointed to the Steam Packet Committee. That Committee ran for a number of years and even after it gave its final report, we were reconstituted to go off and look at something else, because shipping and the future of the company at that time was looking in doubt, and there were many more questions. It was a substantial investigation and one I was very, very pleased to 1425 have been a part of. I think the work of Select Committees is so important in the democratic process, to get to the bottom of issues. Also, quite often they result out of members of the public lobbying their local MHK on a very important matter and I think it is important that we have that avenue open, as well as the legal route, because the Select Committees, of course, deal with the wider issues as opposed to specific individual cases. 1430 Recently, I was appointed to the Department of Education and Children and I make no secret in saying that when Allan Bell was appointed Chief Minister, it was one of the Departments I specifically said, ‘I don’t think I have got anything to offer there, I would rather not go.’ But due to the change of membership, he asked would I consider joining that Department. In contrast to my first views, it is one of the Departments I have enjoyed the most. Coming 1435 from a business background, I did not really think I had anything to offer. We have toured all the schools, bar a couple which for one reason we have not managed to get to, but I think there are only a couple I have not been to. We have toured them all, we have had a super time. In fact, I have been invited back to read a story to Year 1 in my slippers in a couple of weeks’ time, which I am going to go and do. We have met some lovely people touring round and seeing the work that 1440 goes on. I think it is remarkable how we can all say what a great education system we have and the work that is going on that we truly have. I think that has been quite humbling, seeing some of the work. I do not how some of these teachers managed to stay so vibrant every day. They have to turn up to work and perform and teach and there is some excellent work going on. Lots of words have been said about Eddie. I remember ringing up Eddie, saying I have had this 1445 conversation with Quintin and he gave me some great words of advice. He has been a great mentor. I know he enjoys trips to Las Vegas so I am sure – (Interjection by Mr Lowey) I would certainly love to… I cannot afford to stay in the Grand Bellagio, where Eddie stays, but I would certainly love to meet up with you in Vegas. One of the things I liked the most was a story that Eddie has actually jumped off the top (Mr 1450 Lowey: Yes, I have.) of one of the tallest buildings in Las Vegas on one of these controlled zip wires on the Stratosphere – Google it!

Mr Callister: He was sober at the time as well! ______324 C130 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL, TUESDAY, 26th FEBUARY 2013

1455 Mr Turner: He was, and I have to say – and this was recently – he is a better man than I am, because I could not do that.

The President: He has also canoed round Port Mooar with me, but we both fell in! (Laughter)

1460 Mr Lowey: Madam President did it with style. I was just like a wounded whale!

Mr Turner: I just think that there is somebody who is an inspiration and I have often thought – and I know other Members have said – they would love to be able to make the calibre of speeches in Tynwald that Eddie makes. 1465 So I just think I would like to say what a great privilege it has been and thank everybody for their friendship and, whatever happens in the future, I wish everybody the very best. Thank you.

Mr Lowey: Well done, Juan. 1470 The President: Mr Wild.

Mr Wild: Thank you, Madam President. I should perhaps clarify whether or not… are we still being recorded? (Members: Yes!) 1475 (Interjections and laughter) I just want to say, very genuinely, it has been an honour. The time since I was elected on 12th December 2011 has literally flown by, and it has been such an incredible experience, moving into the Court and Council, after 33 years in the private sector. It was 35 years ago, on 13th February this year that I walked into Lloyds Bank at 10 o’clock in 1480 Parliament Street, Ramsey and I guess then, I never thought what a… Well, I was in the Falkland Islands, representing Tynwald at the Commonwealth Parliamentary conference. What a contrast, that is all I will say. I think from a Council and a Court perspective, it has been like being the new boy in class. I have been continually learning and continue to do so. I have enjoyed working with everybody – 1485 and I mean that about the other House as well as Council. I agree entirely with Mr Lowey that we can disagree in debates, but outside we should be friends. I do believe firmly in that and that has been a wonderful experience. I would like to thank all the people sat round this table, for looking after me in different ways. Mr Braidwood tried to finish me off on a large hill in Edinburgh, (Laughter) at the parliamentary 1490 conference last year –

Mr Lowey: Beware!

Mr Braidwood: Arthur’s Seat! 1495 Mr Wild: – which was an interesting experience! I have to say, Mr Downie has opened my eyes to some very interesting concepts – (Laughter) I mean that most friendly; and I have enjoyed the hug in the carpark, Mr Lowey! (Laughter)

1500 Mr Butt: It has to be genuine!

Mr Wild: I will say, it has been a pleasure working with Mr Turner. It was difficult at times, we all accept that, and people have their reasons, but likewise, I thought moving into Education and Children was going to be a complete shock to me as a banker, and it has been great fun and 1505 very rewarding. Yes, I think I will be putting my slippers on next week, and reading to the Year 6. We all have our preferences, and I guess my children are grown up. I would just like to say, I think the Lord Bishop, Robert brings a very special angle to this Council (Mr Lowey: Absolutely.) and to Tynwald Court, because I think it is nice to have somebody with a moral conscience, who can speak out and sometimes just balance some debates 1510 which can occasionally become a little extreme in circumstances. I do think that balancing perspective is a very important role. My thanks to Madam President, for keeping us all in line. Finally, I would just like to say, I would like to thank the Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Houghton, for nominating me in December 2011, and the Chief Minister for seconding my nomination. I hope I have repaid Hon. Members who supported that vote. As I said at the time, I

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1515 have regarded it as my probationary period, so if they think I have not done a good job, then they can vote on 18th March in whichever way they want. That is how I have seen it. I have enjoyed the parliamentary work and the diversity of political membership of the Departments of Economic Development, and Education and Children, and it has been very useful being able to bring employment skills together with education and children. I think that was a very 1520 good move by the Chief Minister, in that sense, to bring the two Departments together, because we have certainly been doing some very good work with apprenticeships and with young people, needing more choice and more challenges and chances. That is it. I would very much like to build upon this term in Legislative Council and the Court. I am grateful to the Hon. Member for North Douglas for his continuing support in terms of 1525 nomination. I do genuinely want to be in politics to make a difference. Going back to Mr Lowey’s comments, I am not from the Isle of Man. I regard it as my home, my sense of place – to quote my good friend, Norman Sayle, it is where you believe you belong. But Janet’s family in the 1950s, I remember her uncle was telling me how he worked in Grantham, I think it was, to pick beet (Interjection by Mr Lowey) and they were really difficult times after the war and the 1960s and 1530 1970s. We are very much a Manx family on Janet’s side, and two wonderful children and I want this Island to survive, prosper and be there for all our future generations – and of course, to pay Mr Lowey’s pension. (Laughter) Finally, all I will say, whatever the outcome of 18th March, it has been a complete honour and privilege to be part of this Court and Council. 1535 Thank you.

The President: Thank you all, Hon. Members. I think we do not need to vote on this, but I am sure it would be agreed unanimously. Is that agreed?

1540 Members: Agreed.

Procedural 1545 Ensuring a quorum in Council

The President: Hon. Members, that concludes our business this morning. Can I just speak now to the remaining Members of Council, just to remind you that it is very important in terms of attendance here and Tynwald that we all try and be there, in order, particularly in Council, to have 1550 a quorum. The numbers change, of course, as the numbers in Council shrink. So please be wary of seeking leave of absence, if you have not already done so.

1555 Procedural Sunbeds Bill delegation

The President: The other issue at like to just discuss with you is the Sunbeds delegation. Mr Butt, Mr Lowey and Mr Turner are delegated to act on that committee. I know they have to 1560 continue their duties but we can understand that that might seem like an imposition at this stage. There is a meeting on 5th March. Are we happy to continue, Hon. Members, with this delegation at this time? Are our Members willing to continue?

Mr Lowey: Can I just say that one of the delegation from the House of Keys, Mrs Cannell, 1565 propositioned me this morning, by saying how much she looked forward to seeing me on 5th March. So if it is good enough for Mrs Cannell, it is good enough for me – but whether it is good enough for my colleagues, I do not know. But Brenda is looking forward to seeing me on the 5th.

Mr Braidwood: She nearly missed you this morning. 1570 Mr Lowey: She was late.

The Lord Bishop: Can I just ask one simple question: if something should happen on the 18th that the Keys did not elect a sufficient number or even not enough people, I have a difficulty on

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1575 the 21st, in that as the Diocesan Bishop, I have to be at the enthronement of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and it is the third day of Tynwald.

The President: We will have to consider our sitting –

1580 The Lord Bishop: So I would have a problem on Thursday, 21st.

The President: In Tynwald, the quorum is lower.

Mr Crowe: I think we changed the law, didn’t we, Madam President? 1585 Mr Lowey: We did do.

Mr Crowe: Five sit and three is the quorum, I think.

1590 The Lord Bishop: Thank you, I am sorry to bring that up.

Mr Crowe: Subject to Jonathan confirming that, I think.

Mr Lowey: You are right, I was on the Committee. 1595 The President: It is a majority of those who are present who are entitled to vote –

The Clerk: In Tynwald Court, if there are four vacancies in the Council, the quorum for the Council in Tynwald Court falls to three. It is the majority of people who are entitled to serve and 1600 vote. (Interjections)

The Lord Bishop: But it is not likely to go on three days.

The President: Probably not likely to. Mr Downie, you have sought leave of absence. (Mr 1605 Downie: Yes.) So we will have to watch that. Right, Hon. Members, Council will now adjourn and the adjournment will be until 5th March.

The Council adjourned at 12.20 p.m.

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