INTERVIEWCONVERSATION FOCUS Michael Wutz On the Craft of Fiction—E.L. Doctorow at 80 F A L L 2 0 1 2 2 5 CONVERSATION PRELUDE E. L. Doctorow is among a small cadre of with Welcome to Hard Times (1960), American novelists admired by a wide in- a parody of the classic Western, and has ternational readership and scholars. Thor- continued this narrative investigation by oughly anchored in a post-World War II focusing on critical cultural moments: American context, and often investigating The Book of Daniel (1971) deals with the the popular myths and self-constructions of Rosenberg trial, mapping the prevailing America, Doctorow’s literary sensibilities national sensibilities in the wake of Mc- address current global political and cultur- Carthyism; Ragtime (1975), Doctorow’s al concerns: the intersection of official and first international bestseller, looks at unofficial history, the relays between print turn-of-the-century politics, racism, and culture and postprint media, literature and immigration in the manner of a pastiche; the discourses of science and technology, The Waterworks (1994) shows the dark as well as the idea of narrative as, what he underbelly of post-bellum prosperity and has called, “a system of knowledge.” While the perpetual balancing act of an ethical Doctorow understands the novelist as an science in the genre of the mystery novel; archeologist of unacknowledged knowledge, and Loon Lake (1980) and Billy Bathgate the novelist him-or herself transmutes (1989) interrogate the myth of the self- such leftovers into forms of telling knowl- made man in the (under)world of crime. edge that speak volumes about a culture’s Often, it is through the lens of a distant historical moment. Fundamentally oral historical event that Doctorow reflects on without presuming to be oracular, fiction the present, by laying bare the gap between for Doctorow is capacious with the intent America’s idealistic promise and its politi- of offering pertinent cultural critique in the cal and cultural reality. At the same time, service of human betterment. philosophical and theological speculations Born and raised in New York City are never far away, as in City of God within a secular humanist and Jewish (2000), in which fictional and historical cultural milieu, Doctorow often uses the voices ruminate about the imponderables of city as an urban microcosm for the themes the universe. More recently, Doctorow has that are at the center of his fiction. For that returned to the subject of history in The reason, his narratives tend to have sug- March (2005), which reconstructs Union gestive allegorical overtones with a wide general William T. Sherman’s march from swath of signification akin to the romances Atlanta to Savannah toward the end of the of Nathaniel Hawthorne. Often associated Civil War. Homer & Langley (2009), with a liberal tradition that has strong his most recent novel, tells of the United sympathies for the Left, Doctorow is careful States’ most notorious pair of fraternal not to infuse his fiction with overt politics hoarders, though not without touching on and ideology. On the contrary, while his many of the concerns that have informed a novels often propose themselves as counter- rich body of work spanning more than half narratives to the narratives of state power, a century. he has repeatedly asserted that fiction is As the recipient of many distinguished the province of art that has no place for prizes, among them the National Book propaganda. Award, two National Books Critics Circle Doctorow began his examination of the Awards, the PEN/Faulkner Award, the idea(l) of America, its myths and history, William Dean Howells Medal of the 2 6 WEBER THE CONTEMPORARY WEST American Academy of Arts and Letters, This conversation took place over sev- and the National Humanities Medal, Mr. eral days during Mr. Doctorow’s stay at Doctorow has written himself into the Weber State University in September 2010. canon of American literature. He embod- I want to thank Edgar for his generosity of ies the virtues of a classical storyteller time and spirit, and the Offices of the Pro- who is singularly capable of rendering his vost and the Telitha E. Lindquist College of cultural diagnoses in ambitious and lyrical Arts & Humanities for underwriting Mr. narratives that have rightly made him an Doctorow’s visit. international bestseller. As a one-time editor and long-time writer, was very useful to me, as a result of which the art and craft of editing has been with I learned to edit myself in a way that actu- you throughout your professional life. At ally separated me from myself as writer. I what point do you yourself start editing put myself in another mental state so that I your work—revising it and looking back- could admit that something was not right or ward at it even as you move your narrative know that something was. And consequently forward? At what point do you start shar- it became my habit to hand in a manuscript ing your work with an editor (and perhaps to my editor only after I knew it was the Helen, your wife), and to what degree are way it should be. So basically, for most of you open to her or his suggestions? Can the books, editors have had nothing to do you recall moments when an editorial sug- except put the book through to production. gestion or discussion moved your books in There have been a few exceptions. When different directions? I finishedLoon Lake, I gave it to my editor, Jason Epstein, who was pleased with it. After With some novels I’ve found myself editing he had scheduled it and sent it off for design, page by page, not proceeding with the writing I decided that it was not right. I said, give me until I am satisfied with the page just done. the manuscript, give it back to me. (There In others I’ve raced right along, doing what were no pdf’s back then.) I said, give me six might be called gross editing every fifty or a weeks, I need six weeks. And I re-wrote the hundred pages, as the book begins to instruct book in the voice it should have had from me, and tells me what it needs to be realized. the beginning. I had a belated revelation Every book is different—in voice, in construc- about what the book should be. But it wasn’t tion, in texture—and as you work out its the editor’s insight, in that case. With The premises you find yourself revising in a way Waterworks, though, Jason suggested that that reflects the character of the book. I was not talking 19th century, I was talking Having worked in publishing for nine 18th century, and he was right about that. years as an editor, I learned to be as dispas- That was an extremely useful, even critical, sionate and objective about my own writing editorial comment on his part. It turned the as I was about the writing of others. And that book around. There’s one other exception. F A L L 2 0 1 2 2 7 CONVERSATION With Homer & Langley, Kate Medina, my cur- attitude, because once he handed in a manu- rent editor, said she felt a need for Homer to script, he gave us carte blanche to do what we say more about his parents. I was reluctant wanted with it. He’d be off in Paris and you’d to do that because I didn’t want to indicate send the galleys to him and not hear back, that there was any psychological reason for and not hear back, the production people hol- the way these brothers acted—that was a lering about the deadline, and Jimmy would different book. But I did make a few additions write, Dear Edgar, I’m sure you know what you that answered to that point, and I think they have to do, and it’s ok with me, you have my were a good idea and that she was right. blessing. A lot of the ideas I had as an editor were So you pretty much deliver your books for non-fiction books. In those days we were over to the editor at a level where they are trying to save Dial. It was barely scraping polished? along. So we were doing books about the Vietnam war teach-ins and publishing people Generally speaking, those books go in and like Abbie Hoffman, the Yippie leader. We that’s it. Not only that, but until I deliver the published a grand book the editors hoax called The have no idea what Report From I’m working on. I Iron Mountain, never talk about it, I a purported can’t, and they don’t secret govern- ask. They don’t ment document know what it is until claiming that it’s on their desk or peace was not in their computer. only impossible, I remember that but undesirable. That got the front you once observed Christian Wutz about your work- page story in the ing relationship New York Times with Norman Mailer that he was a dream and became a to edit. It sounds like that’s the case for you best-seller. We were very loose, very spunky as well. and non-corporate at Dial. I published an ex- perimental novelist named Ronald Sukenick, Did I say “dream?” But yes, Norman was a a book called Up. When I left Dial, he felt that professional, he listened and he was respect- no one else would publish him if I didn’t, and ful.