WISCONSIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY
An Oral History Interview with
WILLIAM RYAN DREW
Interviewer: .Anita Hecht, Life History Services Recording Date: November 23, 2009 Place: Wauwatosa, Wisconsin. Length: 2.25 hours
William Ryan Drew was raised in Waukon, Iowa, the oldest child of Kathryn and James F. Drew, who were active in the Democratic Party. In 1954, Drew graduated from St. Patrick's Catholic School and then attended Marquette University, where he earned a degree in history.
Drew met Sen. William Proxmire during the Democratic Convention in La Crosse while volunteering for Gaylord Nelson's gubernatorial campaign in 1958. Over the next few years, Drew and Sen. Proxmire became friends whiel Drew worked on Proxmire's reelection campaign in 1963 and 1964.
.After earning his J.D. degree from Marquette in 1966, Drew joined Sen. Proxmire's staff in Washington, DC. Drew worked closely with the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee, wrote speeches, and worked with Wisconsin governmental entities and organizations. He also worked on constituent issues, postal appointments, and Vietnam War concerns.
In 1968, Drew resigned from Sen. Proxmire's office to run for .Alderman in Milwaukee's 4th District. He still continued to serve on Sen. Proxmire's campaign committee by organizing fundraisers, nurturing political relationships in Wisconsin, and touring the state with the Senator.
In 1972, Drew was elected president of the Milwaukee City Council and in 1974 became commissioner of city development, an office he held until 1988. He later served as director of PROJECT NAME: PROXMIRE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Verbatim Interview Transcript NARRATOR: WILLIAM RYAN DREW INTERVIEWER: Anita Hecht INTERVIEW DATE: November 23, 2009 INTERVIEW LOCATION: Wauwatosa, Wisconsin INTERVIEW LENGTH: Approximately 2.25 Hours
KEY: WD William Drew BP Bill Proxmire GN Gaylord Nelson
SUBJECT INDEX
HOUR1
Hour 1/00:00 WD's Family History Early Interest in Politics
Hour 1/09:40 WD's Educational Background Introduction to Young Democrats Initial Impressions of BP
Hour 1/20:00 BP's Senate Campaign/Election WD's Political Work After Senate Campaign BP's Independence in Democratic Party Relationship Between BP and GN
Hourl/30:05 WD's Involvement in BP's Re-election Campaign Campaigning at Plant Gates/Shaking Hands
Hour 1/40:00 BP's Campaign Diligence BP's Appeal to Constituents '64 Campaign Finance
Hour 1/50:00 The Proxmire Club Staffers Involved in '64 Election BP's Independence from Special Interests/Refusal of Gifts
William Drew Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project HOUR 2
Hour 2/00:00 Working with BP After Law School WD's Job Duties in BP's Office
Hour 2/10:05 BP's Campaigning for Democratic Party WD's Serving as Liaison Between BP and GN BP's Voluminous Office Mail/Importance of Quick Response 1960s; Civil Unrest
Hour 2/19:20 Model Cities Program BP's Support of Urban Development
Hour 2/30:00 BP's Bringing Money Back to Wisconsin WD's Departure from BP's Office BP's Influence on WD
Hour 2/40:05 WD's Work in Local Government in Milwaukee Dealing with BP as Member of Redevelopment Authority Federal Legislation's Effects on Milwaukee BP's Photographic Recall of Details
Hour 2/50:00 Effects of Reagan Administration/ Changes in BP's Role on Banking Committee BP's Speculated Thoughts on Influence of Money Today
HOUR 3
Hour 3/00:00 BP's Cognitive Decline BP's Empathy Toward Others BP's Legacy
HOUR1
William Drew Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project Hour 1/00:00 WD's Family History, Early Interest in Politics
The date is November 23r in the year 2009. My name is Anita Hecht and I have the great pleasure and honor of interviewing William Ryan Drew on behalf of the William Proxmire Oral
History Project for the Wisconsin Historical Society. So we find ourselves in Bill's office in
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin. And first of all, thank you for agreeing to participate in this project.
Always a pleasure to talk about Senator Proxmire.
Great. Well, I'd like to begin just with a bit of information about you and your background. First
of all, when and where were you born?
rrl I was born May 3 , 1936 in Waukon, Iowa.
Which is where in relation to Wisconsin?
In relation to Wisconsin, it is about thirty miles from Prairie du Chien, a little bit west and north,
and about sixty miles south and west of La Crosse.
Got it, okay.
On the other side of the Mississippi.
William Drew interview Transcript A Proxmire Oral History Project And your family; can you tell me a bit about their history and how you all ended up in Waukon,
Iowa?
Well, all of my great grandparents came from Ireland. And they were farmers, and through one
circumstance or another - mostly through, I think, family relations; they had a tendency to travel
in clans in those days - ended up in the Waukon area. There was an original settlement of a
significant number of families, like thirty-six or forty, that came up - landed in New Orleans and
sent a delegation up the river and found a place in Wexford, which was a small area near
Waukon. And they settled and then many of the other Irish folks came and settled in that part of the world as well.
And what did your grandparents, great-grandparents do to survive?
My great grandparents and my grandparents all were farmers. And then my father was a
pharmacist and an attorney.
Both.
Both. And ran a drug store, had a law practice. At one time was Postmaster in Waukon. And so
he was one of the first of that generation to go to college. So that's kind of the -1 grew up
spending a lot of time on farms.
Which was probably helpful during the Depression. There was food?
William Drew Interview Transcript 5 Proxmire Oral History Project There was food, and that was something that the Depression made a profound impact on all of those folks that I remember. My mother, until she died, used to worry about, you know, the
economy really getting bad again and there wouldn't be food and, you know, all that. And as a
result of some of the policies of the Carter administration, we had a significant number of farm
bankruptcies back in, you know, in that area and all through Iowa. And I remember her telling
me that she never thought that she would see farmers needing food stamps and, you know, that type of welfare assistance again. And that made a profound impact on her. But yeah, the whole
growing up during the Depression made an impact on everybody that went through it.
Tell me about your parents' political feelings, affiliations, activism.
Well, they were Democrats, as were most of the - the county was kind of split into, you know, the two parties: Republican and Democrat. Democrats were, for the most part, all Irish and the
minority population in that county. And the Norwegians and the Germans, which were the other
large ethnic populations, were mostly Republican. So I grew up in a family that was quite active
in political - my dad was District Attorney for Allamakee County at one time. I believe it was the 1934 election, and was the Chairman of the Democratic Party there for, you know, for many
years. My mother was very active in Democratic politics as well. So it was not unusual to have,
you know, meetings in our house or that type of thing. I just kind of grew up with that.
William Drew interview Transcript 6 Proxmire Oral History Project Was there something about the Democratic Party platform that appealed, or was it really more
of a — I don't know — sort of a default affiliation because of one's religious background in those
days?
Well, most of the -1 think most of the Irish were Democrats naturally, I guess, you know,
because of immigration policies and things like that. But all of the people that I grew up with
were - kind of worshipped Franklin Roosevelt. I mean, his picture was everywhere. He was a
hero. He inspired, you know, just incredible devotion on the part of my grandparents. So it was -
you know, that, I'm sure, had an influence on it as well. And I also suspect that that relationship
with the Irish, at least to the Democratic Party, was helped by Al Smith. And the fact that, you
know, the Democratic Party was a way up and out for the Irish immigrants. And so that carried
over into the farm country as well. That's my thought on it, anyway.
Right. That's interesting. Were you politically motivated at an early age? When do you
remember first starting to follow your local or —
Well, I guess one of my first experiences in politics, if you will, but very, very local - this is in
school politics. When I was a freshman, I decided that I wanted to be - a freshman in high school
-1 wanted to be President of the senior class. So I carefully maneuvered for three years and we
kind of got everybody, by the end of the - we were in a very small class. I had seventeen people.
So everybody had held an office by the time we got up there. So the last of us were the ones that
had the turn, if you will. But I remember thinking when I was a freshman, "That's what I want."
William Drew interview Transcript 7 Proxmire Oral History Project Did you achieve your goal, then?
Oh yes, oh yeah.
You did?
Oh, of course.
Well, congratulations.
(laughter) So that was the first political experience from a very local level. But I also would -
when I was in high school - would do research for candidates that were, you know, running for
Congress. For instance, there was a fellow by the name of Len Wolf who was a good friend of
mine. And I did the tally of the votes from the Congressional Record that his - he was running
against an incumbent. So I did, I don't know, it may have been ten years. It was a big -
This was pre-computers.
Yeah; pre-computer. Big project. I mean, I had the Congressional Records that were stacked. So that type of thing I was just kind of interested in that and, you know, so it was -
Remained that way.
William Drew Interview Transcript 8 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah. And I would go out and put up signs for, you know, for him and that type of thing.
Tell me a little bit about your education, primary, secondary, and then —
Hour 1/09:40 WD's Educational Background, Introduction to Young Democrats, Initial Impressions of BP
Yeah. Well, I went to Saint Patrick's grade school and then high school.
Parochial education?
Yeah. Yes, indeed. The Sisters of the Presentation from Ireland and from Dubuque. They settled
in Dubuque; really a great group of people. I still go and visit three of my teachers.
Wow.
I try and get down to Dubuque every year. They're obviously a little bit up in age. They were
strict, but we got a good, liberal education. And then I went to Marquette University for
undergrad and law school. And in undergrad, I have a history major and a minor in philosophy
and education and political science.
So let me get the years. You graduated from high school in —
'54.
William Drew interview Transcript 9 Proxmire Oral History Project '54; from college in —
'58.
Okay. And your law degree?
Was in c66.
So you took some time off to work in there.
Yeah. I worked for Marquette University for a couple of years.
Well, you moved, then, from Iowa to Wisconsin.
Yes, I did.
And so one of my first questions about that is were there any parallels in the political realm
between the, let's say, Democratic Party and what was happening here in Wisconsin and what
was in Iowa? Because I hear the Republican Party was strong and the Progressive Party had
been strong, but not the Democratic Party until —
William Drew interview Transcript 10 Proxmire Oral History Project No. And I'll tell ya, I really didn't pay much attention to politics for the first couple of years that
I was here. I was busy with school and work and stuff like that. And I was involved in, you
know, dormitory politics and, you know, the organizations and that type of thing. And, of course,
I read about the political situation. And Joe McCarthy was a big deal in those days. The campus,
I think in - well, in those days, the Young Republicans were very strong and the Young
Democrats were almost non-existent. And there was a group in the middle called the Political
Union, which was made up of independents. But I wandered into that world almost accidentally.
Someone invited me to a Young Democratic meeting. So I didn't have anything to do. So I went
and I can remember the meeting was in Johnson Hall and there were probably about twenty-one
or twenty-three people, something like that. And it just happened that they were having an
election for an interim President that night. And they were tied. And since I was the only one there that was not on anybody's side; didn't know anyone, really, whoever it was that invited me
said, "Well, why don't we make him be interim President?" And so I said, "Fine." So I decided then that, now that I have it, I'm going to keep it.
Wow.
And so we built that over the years to an organization that probably had three hundred. We were
really the dominant organization on campus.
This was called the Political —
No. This was the Young Democrats.
William Drew Interview Transcript 11 Proxmire Oral History Project This was the Young Democrats, okay.
Yeah. Yeah, and we worked with the Political Union and all that.
I see. So this was during your junior year?
Yeah, junior and senior.
Okay. And that would have put us in 1956.
It would have been c56 and then -
To '58.
Yeah, '57, yep.
Interesting. So what did that time entail in terms of introducing you to State politics and national politics?
Well, it was in that period of time that I met Proxmire in La Crosse.
Had you heard of him before?
William Drew Interview Transcript 12 Proxmire Oral History Project Oh, yeah. I mean, I'd read the papers and all that.
So you knew that he had run for Governor?
Yeah, right. I mean you kind of, you know, saw the -
Anything else that you remember knowing about him?
Not really much about him, except that he ran all these times and got beat. I knew that he was in the printing business in Waterloo. But beyond that, it was just stuff that you'd read in the paper
and all that. So then McCarthy died, and obviously that was a big deal.
You said you met him in La Crosse, or heard him speak?
Right. That was in 1958,1 believe; building up to the -
After McCarthy died?
Yeah. It was after McCarthy, yeah, yeah.
Okay, alright.
William Drew Interview Transcript 13 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah. I had never run across him before that. I wasn't involved enough to - you know, we
started to become - when you get an organization that has three or four hundred people in it, and
you can turn people out to do political activities, people start to notice that you're there. So in
1958,1 was back in Iowa. It must have been - well, it was some holiday thing. I had my parents take me up to La Crosse. And I went to the convention. That's where I heard him speak. That
was, as I recall, the first time that I saw him. And in the 1958 election, I was involved with
Gaylord and his campaign more than Prox, although we had both of them on the -
You have a wonderful button here that's sort of 3-D.
And it says, "Authorized and paid for by the Young Democratic Political Action Club of
Wisconsin, Bill Drew, Treas."
And it has Prox —
Prox and Gaylord Nelson.
For Senator and —
Gaylord Nelson for Governor.
Can you tell me just briefly what your first impressions of him were when you heard him speak in
La Crosse?
William Drew Interview Transcript 14 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, Prox was very articulate and he was a very good speaker. He always had a total command
of the topics that he was talking about. He was knowledgeable. He was a lecturer, maybe, in a
good way. And I was impressed with him. He was enthusiastic. He knew what he was talking
about. He had a program; it was concise and it wasn't rambling and he had a message and you
say, "Gee!" Compared to Nelson, he wasn't as funny. Gaylord was a very, you know, engaging type of guy with sixteen stories about himself and all that. Prox wasn't that way. He was just, I
guess, more professorial, would be the approach. But anyway, I was very impressed. I mean,
clearly he was a very intelligent individual. I walked away with, you know, this is somebody that
I respect. He knows what he's doing.
Did you think he had a chance in '58? I mean, he had come in under a special election after
losing three times.
Well, in '57, he only won the special election. I'm not sure that anybody except Pat Lucey thought that he was going to win.
Hour 1/20:00 BP's Senate Campaign/Election, WD's Political Work After Senate Campaign, BP's Independence in Democratic Party, Relationship Between BP and GN
So the Democratic Party didn't really —
Well, I don't think they - we'd gotten beaten, we'd gotten beaten, we'd gotten beaten, but he
was the only one that really had a statewide name, and he worked like a fool. So in 1958,1 don't
William Drew interview Transcript 15 Proxmire Oral History Project know, it just kind of felt like there was a chance. He was up for re-election, so he had an
incumbent there and you had Nelson, who was a pretty good campaigner. And I say pretty good,
because compared to Prox and, you know, thirty hours a day - (laughter)
Shaking hands, yeah.
That he worked. But Gaylord had a message. And Vernon Thompson was not the greatest public
speaker or he wasn't a very popular Governor. So it looked like there might be a chance. And so there was Gaylord and Philleo Nash and Prox on the ticket. It looked like a pretty good ticket and they were all kind of together and they - it seemed to work out. And I think the closer we got to the election, the more enthusiastic people became. And there was kind of a momentum and it
kind of looked like it was going to work, and it did.
Do you remember that moment of the winning?
No, I don't, to tell you the truth. That one is kind of blurred in my memory. I think we were
downtown in Milwaukee, but I don't even remember the headquarters, or whatever. I probably
should, but I don't.
And you weren 't that involved in Prox's election that time around anyway.
William Drew interview Transcript 16 Proxmire Oral History Project No, I wasn't involved in Prox's election. And really we were kind of peripheral on Gaylord's. I
drove Gaylord a couple of times, but mostly it was just kind of out and on the street stuff in
Milwaukee and things like that.
Did they get involved in each other's campaigns at all?
Not really, no.
Okay. So '58 he gets into the Senate in a six year term. What happened with you? You graduated from Marquette.
Right, and kind of continued on with politics. And I worked at Marquette and I finished up my
education. You know, I thought maybe I'll be a teacher. And so I took the courses I needed for a
certificate; did some practice teaching and some substitute teaching. And that convinced me that
I needed to do something else, (laughter) So I then went back and worked for the Dean of Men at
Marquette for a couple of years.
Did you stay involved in politics?
Yeah, yeah. So we had the 1960 election with Gaylord again and John Reynolds for Attorney
General and Kennedy. I was very much involved in the Humphrey -
You were a Humphrey supporter?
William Drew interview Transcript 17 Proxmire Oral History Project I was a Humphrey supporter, yep.
As was Nelson, right?
Yeah, um-hmm.
But Proxmire not.
You know, I don't think so. I'm not sure that he got involved in the primary at all. I don't recall
him - I think he was, you know, kind ofhis neutral stance. That's my - he probably leaned -
well, I don't know.
Could you speak at all at this point in time how, given that you were pretty active in the
Democratic Party in Wisconsin, how he was viewed within the Party? Was he seen as a Party player at that point? Was he always seen as an independent?
Oh, I think he was - he certainly wasn't seen as an insider that would tinker in Party politics. He
didn't particularly ever get into that as nearly as I can tell. I mean, we did, when we needed to -
when I was working for him, we had the political ramifications of Postmasters' [appointments]
and that type of terrible stuff that he hated with a passion. While Pat Lucey would be very much
involved in the operating of the Party, and Gaylord, while he was Governor, wanted to be
involved in that, I never saw Prox as getting into the tinkering with who might be Chairman or
William Drew Interview Transcript 18 Proxmire Oral History Project whatever. He and Pat Lucey were allies, I would say. I'm not sure they were close friends, ever,
but I think he recognized that Pat was instrumental in his election and if Pat needed something,
he would attempt to deal with that within Party stuff. So that's where, as I remember, his
loyalties were.
Do you remember any friction at all?
Between he and Pat?
Or anyone in the Party?
No, I mean, he and Gaylord never were really close, from the standpoint that Gaylord and Pat
didn't get along. I mean, Gaylord tried to dump Pat as Party Chairman. And normally you would think that would happen automatically because he was the Governor, but it didn't. And that
caused a, I would say, a lasting rift in the -
When was that?
Oh, that would have been . . . probably - must have been in Gaylord's first term. He thought he,
as Governor, he should be able to run the Party, and it didn't turn out that way.
That will be for another oral history project.
William Drew interview Transcript 19 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah, really. It's fascinating stuff on that; but, at any rate, that kind of aligned Pat and Prox.
I see.
And then you had the Gaylord as a Senator and Prox as a Senator, well, there's always a tension.
And it may not be as much between the two people themselves, as between the two staffs in
Washington. It doesn't make any difference if they're Democrats or Republicans. There's that.
But they were never enemies.
And substantively, would you say they were more often in agreement or not?
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, they were - yeah; ninety percent of the time. Gaylord would have not been
as conservative in spending as Prox. That would have been the major -
The major difference?
Yeah.
So when Kennedy won, how involved were you? Did you stay active in State politics? Did you
decide, then, to —
Yeah. We had, well, the primary with Humphrey - Kennedy had his office on 12 and
Wisconsin [Ave.], and Humphrey was on 17 and Wisconsin; 17,18, 19 and Wisconsin -
William Drew interview Transcript 20 Proxmire Oral History Project 1923. Pat Lucey was involved in the Kennedy campaign. Prox, I don't think was - he wasn't -
he never took a hand in that. I'm not sure whether he ever appeared with either of them or not
during the primary. That would be my guess he didn't. So I was involved in that with Humphrey.
And then with the Nelson and the Kennedy campaigns and, you know, in the final.
So you kind of got a lot of skill in campaigning in those days.
Yeah. I also was involved in 1960 in the Mayor's race, and I was the secretary of Henry Maier's
campaign. And that was a real experience for me because we really got into the field campaign
stuff. And while I had been involved in it before, this was really a hands-on type of experience
for me with some responsibilities for getting stuff done.
Was there a certain part of campaign work that you specialized in, whether it be fundraising or
issues related?
Hour 1/30:05 WD's Involvement in BP's Re-election Campaign, Campaigning at Plant Gates/Shaking Hands
I never did like fundraising, but I really enjoyed the actual campaign stuff, the getting twenty or thirty people out to distribute literature, to the phone bank stuff, to the rallies. It was that type of thing that I enjoyed. And, of course, when you have a cadre of a couple hundred people that you
can call on, that just became kind of a natural type of thing. I would do some writing, but not a
lot. It was mostly that for all of them.
William Drew Interview Transcript 21 Proxmire Oral History Project Were there certain issues of the day that felt very important to you? When you were talking
about the early '60s, there was a lot going on, whether it be Civil Rights or Vietnam?
Well, you know, we had all of those things. Vietnam was a testy issue. The Civil Rights issues
were open housing in Milwaukee; open housing ordinances. It was obviously a time of unrest.
Did you follow Prox's career in the Senate very much at that point? This was his first full term.
Anything stand out to you?
No, I didn't follow it as much as if you were really involved.
On the staff.
Yeah, right. I knew that he was involved with Wayne Morse and Senator Clark, and Senator
Douglas as kind of the maverick group in the Senate. And right now I don't remember any
specific things other than that, just kind of a -
Okay, that's fine. Well, there was a lot—you started law school in 1963, is that right?
Yeah, um-hmm, yeah.
So something drew you to the law. Was it wanting to be a legislator?
William Drew Interview Transcript 22 Proxmire Oral History Project No. No, I never really particularly wanted to be elected to anything.
Okay.
I guess, you know, it just appealed to me. I guess if I go back to what I might have been destined to be, it was either a pharmacist or an attorney. And my dad told me that being a pharmacist
wasn't a very good thing to be. (laughter) But that just kind of - the law seems natural when
you're into that.
So you started in 1963, which was at the same time that Proxmire was ramping up his re-election
campaign. Did you get involved?
Yeah, um-hmm. Oh, you have to. (laughter)
You have to. You were going to law school and campaigning?
Sure, yeah.
Okay. So tell me what stands out to you about that time and that particular campaign.
Well, I don't know how many plant gates I was at with him, but a lot.
So was that when you sort of became closer to him personally?
William Drew interview Transcript 23 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah.
And how did that come about?
I got to know him more because I was available to, you know, get up at those ungodly hours of the morning. I mean, literally, we would be at plant gates at five o'clock in the morning, so talk
about the crack of dawn.
So he would come back every weekend, or would he come back during the week? I would
imagine he 'd have to do it during the week when people are going to work.
Yeah. And, of course, during the summers - it depends on - you know, I mean, they were off
and - he was back a lot. He was always back a lot. But during the campaign times and at - so
you would have -1 mean, there were some plants that were working on Saturdays in those days.
And we would have probably Fridays and Mondays.
So describe to me one of those mornings.
Well, you get up. You pick him up at the hotel wherever he was staying. And you would go out to International Harvester or American Motors or the Oster Company, or whatever. And he
would stand out there and just shake hands with everybody that was coming in. And on some of those gates, we could pass out literature which, you know, a little handout, which I would do or
William Drew interview Transcript 24 Proxmire Oral History Project two of us, if we had more than one. And he would go rain or shine or cold. I mean, there were some days where -1 remember one - God, it was just unbelievably cold. That was at the Oster
Company. And that was out in the open and the wind was blowing. So he told me to go inside.
So I lasted for another ten minutes or so and then I just couldn't stand it anymore. You know, he was just there. You would have, if it was a Saturday, you would have any number of other things that were scheduled meetings. It might have been a Democratic Party meeting - well, that wouldn't be on a Saturday - but something that was - you had them scheduled every hour or whatever it was, for the day. During the week, you'd have union meetings at night. There might be something at Serb Hall, fish fry on Friday night.
What would he say to people when he shook their hand?
"Hi, I'm Bill Proxmire."
And that's it?
I mean, that was kind of the opening. But even at that time, he had been around and met so many people that they'd say, "Hi Bill."
Would there ever be any substantive discussions, or people coming up to him saying, "I didn't like your vote, " or "I want you to do this. "
William Drew Interview Transcript 25 Proxmire Oral History Project There were, and normally how he handled that so that he wouldn't get tied up in that type of thing would be to say, "Well, I understand what you're saying. Give that information to Bill and
we'll get back to you on that." So there would be the -
Funnel it to you.
Yeah. And at a place like State Fair, you know, when he would stand out there, it would keep two of us busy.
Were there certain issues that you remember that came up that you had to deal with?
Well, it could be anything; social security.
Okay.
It just depended on the - it was casework, to a great extent. You know, "I have a problem with
social security. My child is . . ." You know, just whatever. There might be some on issues. I
suppose there must have been. But most of the stuff that you remember -1 can remember, you
know, you write down the name and what the issue is and make sure that you have the proper
contact, and hope you can do that before -
The next one shows up.
William Drew interview Transcript 26 Proxmire Oral History Project The next one gets - that Luke has one and you get another one thrown at you.
Okay, got it. So this was a big part of what you did in '63.
And '64.
And '64.
And driving.
And it must have made the difference that he got out there.
Oh, sure.
And met so many people.
Yeah.
And it wasn't a particularly common campaigning style, was it?
Hour 1/40:00 BP's Campaign Diligence, BP's Appeal to Constituents, '64 Campaign Finance
No. He was just more adept at it than anybody else. I mean, he was -
William Drew interview Transcript 27 Proxmire Oral History Project Inexhaustible.
Almost driven, in a way. If he had a full day from morning until night around the State, you
would literally have to trade off with somebody. I mean, he kept going, but you would be just
worn to a frazzle. I mean, I won't say there was a lot of pressure, but you had the schedule to
keep, you had the driving, all the rest of the stuff, and he just kept - like the energizer bunny -
you're scrambling to catch up.
Do you have any thoughts on what accounted for that sort of enormous energy? Was that just his
character?
That was his Type A personality. And I guess, you know, he wanted to be in the Senate and that
was all part of, in his mind, the way you handle this. And it was, in a way, an inexpensive way of
meeting all these people. And obviously it was right because it paid off. By the time that he
retired, practically everybody in the State knew who he was; had met him, probably, brought their children to meet him! I mean, at State Fair, and this, I can't tell you how many times I - you
know, people would be going into the - he stood in front of the flower [booth]. People would be
walking along and say, "Oh," you know, they'd point at him and they'd get their kids and they'd
get in line. They had no interest in going into the flower show; just to stand in line to meet him,
get their kids to meet him and they'd be gone. By the time the State Fair was over, his hands
were bloody.
William Drew interview Transcript 28 Proxmire Oral History Project What do you think it was about his politics, per se, that appealed to people?
Oh, I think that he really caught that there may be a frugal nature that runs through Wisconsin.
People don't like to see money wasted. I think that was appealing. They had a feeling that he was trying to spend their money wisely, and that he was watching out. And this whole maverick thing
about being against the establishment, if you will; I think there was something about that that
appealed. And I think also, I mean, he was right on with his social issues. He was very liberal,
and somewhat more conservative on the spending.
So tell me a little bit more about that particular '64 campaign. You mentioned also that he had
been branded earlier as "Billion Dollar Bill. "
Yeah, that -1 remember -
Which sort of flies in the face of the frugality streak.
Well, that's right. And that was - of course, we're talking about early on, and there may have
been a conversion.
Of his]
Yeah. I mean, he obviously supported a lot of spending legislation in his first full term. And that
came with the curse, then, of the "Billion Dollar Bill." And there was also an article that came
William Drew interview Transcript 29 Proxmire Oral History Project out way, way late by -1 think it was a magazine - that listed him as the third worse Senator, you know, some such thing as that. And that caused a significant stir in the campaign. But he weathered that. And I think that he may have changed his philosophy, or at least how he approached legislation, after that campaign. The story on the billion dollar thing; they were concerned about that. But the other story hit way at the end. I mean, like the last week.
The one about being a bad Senator?
Yeah, a bad Senator, yeah. And both of those, you know, had an impact on the campaign. I remember that from the campaign. I don't think the ads that Renk was running were particularly dreadful.
Okay. That was another one of my questions. In your memory, were there substantive issues that they were differing on that swayed voters, do you think? Or how did people choose between Renk and Proxmire? Do you think it was just the mood of the country at the time?
I think it was that and who they liked most, who they knew better. Frankly, I think that there wouldn't have been a terrible, great difference between Prox and Wilbur Renk.
That's interesting.
I mean, get down to the -
William Drew interview Transcript 30 Proxmire Oral History Project The nuts and bolts.
Ten percent difference or something like that. It would not have been a Goldwater/Kennedy type
of thing. Wilbur Renk was kind of like the Warren Knowles part of the Republican Party here,
more of the moderate than -
How much did money play a part in the campaign? Raising money, spending money; I think it's
so different today, but back then it did play some role, didn't it?
Oh, sure. And I don't remember the dollar figures anymore. You'd have to go back and look at
stuff. But the books that we put together and sold -
These are the program books you 're talking about.
The program books, yeah. The inside cover might have been fifteen hundred or two thousand
dollars.
You would get advertisers.
Yeah.
And then put a program together and a dinner or something.
William Drew interview Transcript 31 Proxmire Oral History Project Yes, right. There would be a dinner and you'd sell tickets to the dinner and try and get what you
could in the program book. But, you know, compared to the millions of dollars that are spent today, these were pretty chintzy campaigns, if you can put it that way.
But he did have to raise some money for this campaign?
Oh, sure. I mean, you had radio. You had television. Television was not as pervasive as it is today in campaigns, but you still had a network of television across the State that you had to deal
with, and radio. And there were still a lot of newspaper ads, you know, at that point. And so you
needed to have -
Some dollars.
Some dollars. And we're talking about in the hundreds of thousands of dollars over a hundred -
I'm not -
Who decided how the money would be spent that you all raised? Proxmire?
I don't know. That was not my -
Okay.
William Drew Interview Transcript 32 Proxmire Oral History Project I would ask for what I needed for literature or whatever we had. I mean, if you remember what a
gestetner is? It's like a mimeograph machine. And we used those because I could get as many as three thousand copies off of one master. And so you would crank all -
Three thousand?
Hour 1/50:00 The Proxmire Club, Staffers Involved in '64 Election, BP's Independence From Special Interests/Refusal of Gifts
That stuff out, yeah. And we did the . . . let's see . . . '64 ... it must have been 1970. Yeah, that
was the 1970 campaign when I came up with this marvelous idea of having a Proxmire Club.
A club?
Club, and with membership cards. And so I'd crank out these sheets with a place for ten names
on it and send it out to supporters. Say you get ten more, and I'd send their membership card. So
you'd get the ten back and then you'd send it to -1 mean, it was like a pyramid. And that got just totally out of control. I mean, the response around the State was just -1 mean, we were just
overwhelmed.
And this was your idea?
Yeah.
William Drew interview Transcript 33 Proxmire Oral History Project Wow.
Just overwhelmed with these things. I mean, by the time the campaign ended, I don't know how
far behind I was. And, of course, I made the mistake that each one of these had to be signed. And
I'd sit there and sign all these cards. And, you know, we'd mail them out. The mail would come
in and you'd get these bundles of stuff and you know that each one of them, (laughter) you
know, was another - but, I mean, that whole thing, it turned into thousands and thousands of
people from around the State. And that, of course, was just a sign of the - that was '58,1 believe.
Yeah, '58.
There's a pin you have here. It's a "P". That was also one of your fundraising schemes?
Yes, that was in nineteen - it says "P58."
Oh, okay. So that was a little earlier.
Yeah, that was a little earlier - Wisconsin Senator Proxmire. But those would be sold for a buck
or that type of thing.
Tell me a little bit about the campaign committee or the staff. Was it a big one? Were the same people on it over the years?
William Drew interview Transcript 34 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, in 1964, you know, for instance, I don't remember all of the people that were involved:
Les Aspin. And Les and I were involved in putting together some of the dinners and that type of thing. Of course he had staff from Washington that would come out. Jerry Clark [Gerald P.
Clark] was an operative that eventually went -1 mean, a staffer that eventually went to work for
AFSCME [American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees]. He had people in the State, Luke Dyb and Finerty and Dick Cudahy were involved. And then we would probably
hire a secretary to run the office and then volunteers.
But there seems to have been a core over the years that stayed very loyal. Is that accurate?
Yeah. Finerty and Cudahy and Les Aspin and myself and -
And what do you think accounted for this loyalty over the years? Did you like working together?
Did you just feel that he was really —
Well, Finerty and Cudahy and I always kind of got along. But I think we all respected Prox. I
mean, it just kind of was normal.
Tell me a little bit about the influence of special interests, if any, whether it be labor or dairy or
Well, you know, Prox kind of announced early on that he was not going to be a slave to anyone,
and so that kind of aggravated organized labor. He was just naturally enough on their side that
William Drew Interview Transcript 35 Proxmire Oral History Project they couldn't really go anywhere else, but they were not as enthusiastic as they would have been
for, say, a Gaylord. It was just a slightly different relationship. They couldn't necessarily count
on Prox. And, of course, he announced that he was not going to be - and that was, I think, true of just about any type of organized thing that you had out there. It didn't make any difference
whether it was labor or the Association of Commerce or a particular industry or whatever. I
mean, he was supportive of agriculture, but not enslaved to that, either. And from my experience
in working out there, there would never be anything accepted from lobbyists. If we got a gift, for
instance, at Christmastime from some company in the State like Pabst or Miller or whatever, that
would always go to some charity with a letter back to them saying, "Thank you. We've sent it off to," whatever.
It just seems so utterly different than what we see in our world today in terms of the influence of
lobbyists and the amount of monies accepted.
Totally different.
And maybe different for his time, too?
It was. It was different. And an example that I give you is my first year out there at
Christmastime, and because I was single and had no family, I worked the holidays. I volunteered to do that. And we were always open on Saturdays and that type of thing. And somebody would
go in and answer the phone and kind of keep the mail down. But around Christmastime you
would see these carts of presents that would be outside the offices of the other Senators. And I
William Drew interview Transcript 36 Proxmire Oral History Project mean, stacks of- you know, cases of liquor and all this stuff. And, I mean, that just did not
happen. If we got food, cheese, or whatever, if it was a small package and the staff could
consume it in a day, you could nibble on it. The rest of it went to the food pantries or whatever.
And did you ever talk with him? Do you have any idea of why he took this to be his sort of
signature stance, or one ofhis signature stances?
I think that he believed that this was a way of people or institutions having an inordinate amount
of influence on - and that, and I think that his strong stance on that was, "If I draw the line here, then I don't have to make a decision as to whether this is something that's going to influence or
not." Where do you draw the line? And I just think in his mind, it was relatively simple, "We just
don't want anything." And, you know, if it was food and you could eat it in a day, you know,
nobody's going to - but anything else that comes in is - first of all, we don't want it. I think the
liquor went back. I don't think -
That didn't go to the food pantry?
No, it didn't go anywhere. But I think that was just part of his -
Philosophically, you think it wasn't necessarily for publicity or because it was practical?
Oh, I don't think it was for publicity at all, no. I don't think that played into it in any way. I
mean, publicity came because of that, but the decision was not made because of - it was a very
William Drew interview Transcript 37 Proxmire Oral History Project practical decision as to how do you keep these wolves from - and we don't want them at the
staff, either. So you didn't take anything when you were out there. I remember I went on a trip to
New York, which I paid for, and we met with some publishers, as I recall. And he called me in
and said, "This is not something that..." And I said, "Well, Senator, I paid for it." And he said,
"Well, I understand that, but let's be a little careful. I don't want..." You know, it was just -
so, and that had nothing to do with publicity. It was just -
One wishes that more politicians would take that stance.
Yes, for sure.
Let's end this hour here and pick up with your move to Washington to work at his office.
Okay, good.
HOUR 2
Hour 2/00:00 Working for BP After Law School, WD's Job Duties in BP's Office
This is hour number two of my interview with William Drew on November 23 , 2009. Are there
any other thoughts you have about the '64 election or when he won, some of the celebrations that
happened? Anything you remember?
William Drew interview Transcript 38 Proxmire Oral History Project No, I tell you, I don't remember the celebration for that one. Maybe I was too tired out.
(laughter)
But it wasn't particularly an easy —
No. It was probably harder on the people that were more involved in the upper planning in this,
because they were trying to react to -
Some of the curve balls?
Yeah. And Ellen was very much involved in that campaign; very much involved.
Tell me a little bit about that.
I'm not sure I can tell you very much, except that she was around a lot and we would see her.
And I knew that she was clearly part of the brain trust that was running the campaign.
So the family did get involved? At least she did.
Yeah, she did, yeah.
Did you know much about him as a family man, or have personal —
William Drew interview Transcript 39 Proxmire Oral History Project No, not at that point; not really.
Okay. Well, you were in law school as we said.
Yeah.
And you still had a couple years to go.
Yeah. A few other interests, (laughter)
Were there certain legal interests that you had?
Not particularly, no.
And how much after his win did you maintain contact with him in those last two years of law
school, or follow his Senate career?
Oh, enough, I guess. I don't remember exactly any particular times that we got together. He may
have been on the campus or I may have seen him. We kept in touch, but not anything in
particular. He went to be a Senator and I tried to figure out how I was going to graduate from law
school.
William Drew interview Transcript 40 Proxmire Oral History Project Let me ask you another question about issues. Were there any things you disagreed with him on at that point, that you remember? Vietnam or any ofhis stances on the economy or —
No, I don't think so. I think, I'll be very honest with you, I think my last two years in law school,
I was pretty much involved in that.
In the grind.
And still working at Marquette for the Dean of Men. So it was enough to keep me busy. And let's see, we had . . . 1964 ... we also had the election for mayor in the spring. And I was involved a little bit in that, but not too much. So, you know, the next two years were just kind of
-1 don't recall that I was involved in anything in particular.
So let's move on, then, to 1966, which is when you got more involved in his office.
Right. I graduated in c66 from law school and, in probably February, I went out to Washington.
And I called Prox and I told him that I was in the process of graduating and that I thought I wanted to come out and see what might be available in the federal government. I thought that would be a good start for a law career in some agency. So I got out there and I met with him on a
Monday. And he had a whole week of interviews set up for me.
Really'?
William Drew Interview Transcript 41 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah.
77e did that for you?
Yeah.
Wow.
But I met with him first. And he said, "I want you to go to all these interviews. And then I want
you to come back and meet with me because I would like for you to come to work for me." And
he said, "But I want you to do all this interviewing first and see if that's what you want to do." I
probably wasn't as enthusiastic about some of the interviews after that, (laughter)
It appealed to you to work in his office?
Yeah. I mean, it would have. Although, I must say, to - for instance, the Small Business
Administration - I had a meeting with ... a fellow from Minnesota . . . anyway, it doesn't make
any difference - and the Department of Commerce. You know, we went through the whole - you
know, Ag.
And at the end of the week —
At the end of the week I went back and I said, "Yeah, I would like to work for you."
William Drew interview Transcript 42 Proxmire Oral History Project And what particular job did he offer you?
Oh, I don't remember what the title was. It was probably, you know, it started off as a legislative
assistant or some such thing as that. Titles really didn't mean very much to Prox. As a matter of
fact, at that time, I don't think he even had an administrative assistant, who was the top - and he
paid you by what he thought you needed to live on. So if you had six kids, you got - that was taken into consideration. If you were single and -
Which you were.
Which I was - you know, you got less than somebody that had a couple of kids.
Interesting. Was it enough, though, to live on?
Oh sure, yeah.
77e wasn't as frugal with his staff as he was with his campaigns, or —
No. I mean, he didn't overpay people.
Okay.
William Drew interview Transcript 43 Proxmire Oral History Project And he had an awfully good staff. I mean, he had some very bright people. I don't include
myself in that; you know, Mark Shields and Tom van der Voort and Howard Shuman. I mean,
you go through the list of people that worked for Prox. It's -
Well he saw something in you, too, obviously.
Well, but at any rate, people wanted to work for him, which is a good sign. And when you're out there, a lot of these people had choices. But, at any rate, that's how I -
And you started in '66?
I started in c66. I was supposed to start in June, and I waited until November because I stopped
and helped to run Pat Lucey's campaign for Governor, which didn't work out very well. But that's another story. So I got out there in the fall.
And what did your job entail?
Well, because I was from the State, I would handle most of the inquiries from labor
organizations or, you know, Party politics stuff that would come in, because I would know, in theory would know, what was going on. And then I had my share of the mail. I mean, you were
divided up and people got certain categories of things that they needed to know enough about. So
I did my share of writing the Genocide speeches.
William Drew Interview Transcript AA Proxmire Oral History Project Which he started in '67.1 think that's what my reading —
That could be. I don't recall.
Okay. So you wrote some of those?
Yeah. God, it was - you know, you'd get a month and so you had a speech a day. And, I mean,
I'm going to tell ya, that got awfully difficult.
To say something new every time?
Yeah, yeah. But you cranked them out. In those days, Proxmire was on the Senate Campaign
Committee. So I was his designee to that.
What was the Senate Campaign Committee?
Hour 2/10:05 BP's Campaigning for Democratic Party, WD's Serving as Liaison Between BP and GN, BP's Voluminous Office Mail/Importance of Quick Response
Well, the Democratic Senators have their fundraising type of thing. So the people that are not up
for re-election try and raise money and make sure that they maintain the Democratic majority in the Senate.
And so you had to do some of that?
William Drew Interview Transcript 45 Proxmire Oral History Project I was the staff person that worked on that. It wasn't all that much. I mean, he was not out -
Campaigning for others?
Campaigning for others a lot, but he would go to do some fundraising for people. And I can
remember him coming back from California. And he had gone out there and I think he spoke to a
breakfast meeting often people. And he was expecting a big crowd. But I think they raised two
hundred thousand dollars at that, (laughter) And he was just - that sticks in my mind; that
coming back and saying, "Wow. I get out there and they raised all this money and there was only this small number of people."
So he did do some campaigning, or work, for the Democratic Party?
Yeah, right. It was probably for a specific person that was running. So he did his share of traveling around for that. And I would, occasionally, since I had a good working relationship
with Gaylord Nelson, if there were issues that needed to be dealt with, I might get assigned to go
down the hall to Gaylord's office.
Do you remember any particular issues?
I don't remember the issues. I do remember one time. It was something that was causing
problems, and I don't remember what it was. And so I went over there and we sat down and
William Drew interview Transcript 46 Proxmire Oral History Project walked in. And, of course, Gaylord treated me like a family member, almost, when I walked in.
And so as we were walking out, whatever it was, we worked out a thing on it. And he said to
somebody on his staff, "Now, you just listen to Drew. Do whatever he - " And so we were
walking out the door with the guy and he said, "You know, he trusts you more than he trusts
me." I had to bridge some things.
You smoothed some of the relationships out, you think, between —
Right, yeah. That was a little bit of - I mean, there wasn't acrimony that would -
Right, I understand.
So I got into that a little bit. And frankly, I don't remember anymore of what my assignments
were. If you were assigned Vietnam, for instance, or if you were assigned - it was probably
something to do with urban stuff, whatever, that would be more of what I would get. So letters
would come in and they would end up on the desk of the person that was assigned to do that.
And then you would answer the - draft a response for the Senator's signature. And you would
draft it and it would go to somebody else to read, and then the signature. My desk was way in the
back of the office, way back, with the mimeograph machines and mailroom and all that, because that's where I thought was the best place to be. It was relatively quiet. I mean, there was a den
back there, but you -
Away from —
William Drew Interview Transcript 47 Proxmire Oral History Project Once you got used to that, you were away from the - and so we moved into a new office. And that would have been because of the elections. In c66, we got to move into a bigger office. And
so I, again, was way in the back. It was a longer walk even, and so he was concerned because he thought that I would want to be up real close, and there was a place. But it's dangerous to be
right outside somebody's door.
Because you 're called on to-
Well, you just don't know what you're going to get! (laughter) So, anyway, he came back and he
said, "I didn't mean for you to be back here in this - " And I said, "Oh, Senator, it's fine." I said,
"I'm just real happy back here. Geri and I work together." I said, "And I help her out with the
mail."
Geri?
Geri. . .
Rosen?
Rosen, yeah.
Okay.
William Drew Interview Transcript 48 Proxmire Oral History Project But you would be at your desk, and all of a sudden you would kind of feel a figure, and you'd
look up and he would be standing there. And it was always the same question: "What's the
oldest letter on your desk?" And you knew that you were - I mean, the goal was a response
within twenty-four hours. I mean, even if it was, "Thank you so much for your inquiry. We've
sent it off to the Department of Defense. When we have an answer, we'll. . ." or it would be a
substantive response.
So every letter was answered?
Oh, every letter was answered, and it was assigned. We got an inordinate amount of mail.
Do you think more than usual?
Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, we were a problem office for the post office. And I can tell you we would
all get our days, but I would take Saturdays quite often. And so you get the mail and you
distribute it, and it would take you all morning, literally. And every letter was answered. And
you shouldn't have a letter -1 mean, a week was a long time to have a letter sitting on your desk.
And you got some and you'd say, "Oh, God. How am I going to handle this?" Anyway, it was a
goal and it was something that we - we were very aware of the need to get that stuff out. And it
made a difference.
William Drew Interview Transcript 49 Proxmire Oral History Project What else during those two years did you get involved with? The Genocide speeches; I did want
to ask you what your thoughts were on why he took that up as an issue that he was very
committed to.
You know, that's a very interesting question. And I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I just think he believed in it. I think it's probably as simple as that. He just had a strong belief that this
is something that we as a nation should approve and that it's the right thing to do.
And daily speeches for almost twenty years.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a commitment that - it could have gone away, you know. There
wasn't a big political gain in that. It just was something that he -
Tell me about Vietnam, because I think early on he voted for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and
then later, like many, kind of reversed his position. Did the staff or you disagree with him at a
certain point on Vietnam? Do you remember any discussions with him about that?
You know, I don't.
Okay. How about Civil Rights? There was also a lot of unrest. There were some shootings that
happened.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
William Drew Interview Transcript 50 Proxmire Oral History Project How did he handle, especially in Wisconsin, in Madison, in particular—
Hour 2/19:20 1960s; Civil Unrest, Model Cities Program, BP's Support of Urban Development
When we had the riots or the civil disturbance, depending on how you look at it here, I was in
Washington at the time. And so I was the person that was in contact with local folks back here,
and giving him updates and all that type of thing on what was going on. And then he went back.
Of course, Milwaukee was not the only place. There was a lot of stuff going on around the
country. And I was back in Milwaukee when Washington burned, or when they had the
disturbance out there. But that was kind of a - there was a certain impetus from all of that for the
Model Cities Program, which was originally called The Demonstration Cities Act. And I can
remember, we were in the office and it was one Saturday. I was going to say I think it was the
Vice President, who was Hubert Humphrey, that called, but I could be wrong. It could have been the Chairman of the House Committee that was handling - that would be more sensible -
anyway, they talked about demonstration cities, and how that made sense before all these riots
and that type of thing, but that name really didn't fit. It carried probably the wrong connotation,
so it was changed to Model Cities.
And tell me a little bit about the Model Cities.
William Drew interview Transcript 51 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, the Model Cities, that was a program that really threw billions of dollars at the problems of
urban America. And it was designed to - and I think we who were working on it thought that it
was really going to cure all the ills of—
Urban America?
Urban America. Because it had a significant amount of money that came by a formula for, you
know, a city. And so Milwaukee would get twelve, thirteen million dollars, and you could pretty
much use it as - you put a program together to use it. You could use it on public works and all the rest of that. And you could use it for social programs and training and all of that. And there
was a requirement for local involvement. So the model neighborhood, which was determined by
a formula of poverty and deterioration and all that, so that certain portions of the city would be
eligible in each large city. And so in Milwaukee, it was an area generally from the river to 35l
Street, 40 Street, somewhere in there. It jagged around a little bit, probably up to Capital
[Drive], and from north of the downtown, Wells Street, or something like that; so it was
basically, in Milwaukee, the black inner city. And that program sent money to the community
with fewer strings attached to it than the categorical programs. And so in Milwaukee and in
many other places, in order to provide the citizen input, there were elections by district. The area
was divided, and all that, which became a nightmare. The programs had to pass this newly
elected council, and there was a struggle between the city elected officials and these folks and
who controlled and, you know, how the money was going to be spent and all that, to a point
where, in Philadelphia, the Mayor went in to federal court to sue to get control back of garage
collection and things like that. I mean, it turned out to be a wonderful program on paper, but just
William Drew interview Transcript 52 Proxmire Oral History Project - and here, we had people being threatened, tires slashed, the Jesuit Church had all kinds of stuff
on it because one of the Priests there was on the Council. You know, people's houses being
ruined with graffiti. I mean, it was really some pretty bitter stuff. I mean, families being threatened. And it was not nearly as bad in Milwaukee as it was in some other places. So
anyway, it was a lot of federal money to take care of the problems, kind of pushed by the riots.
We'll handle all this; not well thought out. And eventually the control did go back to the city and
saw some streetlights being put in. And finally the people who were supposed to be the
recipients of all this stuff started to say, "Where the hell is our . . . ?" You know, "We need
alleys. We need streets. We need . . ." So that caused kind of a turnaround. But we had programs that - one that I joke about; two of them. One was a proposal to train bartenders to recognize
mentally disturbed individuals. Another one was what I call "the eternal ear," where, if you had a
problem, there would always be somebody to talk to. So you would have this cadre of people that would answer phones. And it went on and on from that; and some really good ideas.
And for the most part, Proxmire did support urban renewal programs and community
development?
Right, but he would look at those and question how the money is being spent. So this thing was -
I mean, Model Cities turned out to be a curse and a benefit. And eventually it was replaced with
some other - but to give you an example of - we were doing a lot of - the City of Milwaukee
was doing a certain amount of public housing. And the Section 8 program allowed for folks to go
and rent places and things like that. But there was a big lack of housing for people with seven or
eight children; you know, big units. The private sector is not interested in a single mother with
William Drew Interview Transcript 53 Proxmire Oral History Project seven or eight children. So we were taking abandoned duplexes and turning them into one family
housing that would be run by the Housing Authority.
Was this while you were still in DC?
No, no, no.
This is later.
I'm sorry. I'm back - this was later, and we can get into that then, if you want.
So we 're talking a little bit later in your career. But there was a connection to Proxmire's office
at that point in terms of—
Yeah, right, yeah.
Okay. No, we '11 go ahead with that.
Okay. I'm sorry I kind of wandered into that.
No, that's okay. I don't want to interrupt you.
William Drew Interview Transcript 54 Proxmire Oral History Project The point is that the remodeling would cost, say, seventy thousand dollars or whatever, which we thought was a real bargain for a five, six bedroom unit.
Sure.
Prox thought that that was outrageous; that we would be spending that much now - you know,
what you're doing is saving a unit and it's a big unit, and all that. So we went round and round
on that a bit, and brought him back. And when he was back here and showed him some of the
units. And he began to understand what we were about, but he still thought it was an inordinate
amount of-
But you were able to shift his opinion a bit on it?
I think so, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Well that's interesting, just in terms of the fact that he was open to listening to —
Right. Now whether he would have to somebody else, I don't know.
Well, did you have a particular sense of loyalty on his part to you?
Hour 2/30:00 BP's Bringing Money Back to Wisconsin, WD's Departure From BP's Office, BP's Influence on WD
William Drew Interview Transcript 55 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah, I think, yeah. You know, the fact that I was involved in this, and that I was saying to him,
"Let's go look at this, and I'll show you what we're doing. We're certainly not throwing money
away. We're saving a unit that would be demolished, in all probability. There are no places for these people to live. The private sector is not going to do it, and we're spending our Housing
Authority money for public housing in this way to fill a gap that clearly, clearly exists." Well, the
logic was there, and he bought it. He still thought it was lot of money.
But that's a program that then was instituted?
Yeah, oh, yeah. We continued on with it.
And you felt was successful?
Yeah, yeah. Oh yes, yeah, right. Anyway, the Model Cities program was something that I
worked on out there and then experienced when I got back to Milwaukee.
Well, there's a couple questions I have: one is whether you could comment on his general stance
towards bringing federal dollars back to Wisconsin, and whether he worked to do that or was he
sort of philosophically not interested in that, or whether that's too black and white?
If we had had earmarks in those days, that would have been just abhorrent to him, and he would
not have participated in that type of program. If there was a program that we were interested in that had been funded and part of the HUD [Housing and Urban Development] programs or
William Drew interview Transcript 56 Proxmire Oral History Project whatever, we would get support for that. He was not one to go out and create a pot of money to
deal with -
And did he get criticized for that within the Democratic [Party]?
Oh, I think so. But I would say that there are some people in the Party that felt that he was not as
aggressive as he should be on some of this stuff. But, you know, neither was Gaylord. So there
wasn't a lot of comparison. You know, Gaylord would probably be more aggressive at
environmental things. And Prox, well, through his Committee, I don't know, there may have
been opportunities to do some specific things, but you didn't see that. And there was grumbling,
but it was just part of the -
Proxmire package.
Yeah.
So you stayed in his office until 1968. Is that right'?
Um-hmm. (affirmatively)
And were there other things you worked on that we should mention?
William Drew Interview Transcript 57 Proxmire Oral History Project You know, probably, there were batches, things that I worked on, but I don't remember . . . you
know, nothing stands out. I was back in the State quite often, dealing with whatever needed to be
done back here. I didn't particularly like Washington in August, (laughter)
Tell me about the circumstances surrounding your departure from the office.
Well, I had always in mind that I didn't want to end up living out in Washington forever. That
was not my goal when I went out there. I had a lot of friends out there that thought that it was -
"Why would you want to be anyplace else? The whole world revolves around Washington." I just never felt that it was real life, and was always looking to come back. So I decided that it was
pretty much time to come. You know, you can always learn, but you reach a point where I think there's a diminishing value in staying. And I had kind of reached that. So I thought, "Well, I'll
probably go back and see what I can find to do." So about that time, Henry Maier called me and
said, "How would you like to run for Alderman?" And I said, "Well, we should talk about that."
So the bottom line is that I decided that I would run for Alderman. I came back and did run and I
did win. And Prox was in my campaign office every time that he was back. He was very
concerned that I was not going to win.
How did he react to you saying you were leaving the office?
He said, "I heard that." (laughter) And I said, "Well, Senator, there are rumors on everything."
And I said, "I'm sorry about that." And he said, "Whatever I can do to help you."
William Drew interview Transcript 58 Proxmire Oral History Project So he was gracious about it.
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.
7 guess I 'm curious about how you look back on that in terms of its influence on you. Was there
anything you took from that experience in his office into your next and subsequent office and professional life?
Yeah. I think a couple of things: one is I became a real believer in this idea that - you can't take
stuff and then be independent.
Okay. So nobody was going to get you into their pocket.
Yeah. I have no question that his approach to that was the proper one. Secondly, I think that I left there with a pretty good understanding that you could be frugal, if you will, in government, and that that really makes some sense. And that his philosophy, not unlike Scoop Jackson's, was you
can deal with the social issues of the day and the human rights types of things, and still be
somewhat conservative in your spending. You don't have to go nuts with all this stuff. There
should be accountability, and that if you're spending government money, the people have a right to have value for their dollar. And I think that those, for sure, are two of the things that I left
with. I mean, it's just part of me now.
Any way in which he ran his office that you replicated?
William Drew Interview Transcript 59 Proxmire Oral History Project No. I mean, I mentioned the way he paid people. You know, kind of unusual. As I said, we
didn't have an administrative assistant at that time, so there was no other person. But we had a hate figure that kept the staff together, (laughter) And we were kind of a free-flowing group of
folks out there.
You 're talking about Prox's office?
Yeah, I'm talking about Prox's office, yeah.
Okay.
And everybody got along pretty well, because there were really no clicks, except everybody
against Freddie, who was kind of the office manager, and she was not a loveable person.
Who is this?
I don't remember what her last name was, even, (laughter) But her name was Freddie. Mark
[Shields] would remember what her last name was. She was just kind of collectively the - she just was - you know, she was a nasty person.
Hour 2/40:05 WD's Work in Local Government in Milwaukee, Dealing with BP as Member of Redevelopment Authority, Federal Legislation's Effects on Milwaukee, BP's Photographic Recall of Details
William Drew Interview Transcript 60 Proxmire Oral History Project In Prox's office for awhile, huh? Interesting.
Yeah. And she was the office manager.
She was a rallying point?
Yeah, for everybody.
Well, let me see if I get this right. So you get elected in 1968 back here in Milwaukee. Then did you become President of the City Council in '72?
No. I was elected and served four years, and then re-elected.
Okay.
And at that point, I was elected President of the Council.
Right. And then you went on to be the Commissioner of City Development?
Right.
In '74?
William Drew interview Transcript 61 Proxmire Oral History Project That was in 1974.
Until 1988.
Yeah.
So many years in that position.
Yes, too many, yeah.
So let's spend a little bit of time talking about how your roles back here dovetailed with some of
Proxmire's work on the Banking Committee, especially in relationship to housing and urban
development.
On my time on the Council, I was also a member of the Redevelopment Authority, so involved
in that. And I had a significant amount of public housing in my district. So I was into those types
of things anyway. But in 1974, the Commissioner of City Development had become ill, Ed
Hayes, and he finally had to resign. And the Mayor and I had -1 was President of the Council, so
we talked about the replacement. And he had been recruiting somebody that worked for HUD
who would have been an excellent Commissioner of City Development. And that person decided
not to take it. So he called me over and he told me that that had fallen through, and that he
guessed that I would have to take the job. And so I said, "Fine," I'd think about it. And I went
William Drew interview Transcript 62 Proxmire Oral History Project off, and I frankly thought, "This is one of the things that, you know, Henry is making
conversation." So I really didn't pay [attention]. So four or five days later he called me and he
said, "Have you thought about it?" and I said, "no, but if you're serious, I guess we better talk
about it." So we did, and I ended up for the next long period of time as Commissioner of City
Development; now that put me also as the Secretary and Executive Director of the Housing
Authority and the Redevelopment Authority on the City Planning Commission, among other things, and Economic Development. So all of those things really came right together in, you
know, Proxmire's Committee, and Henry Reuss's Committee at that point as well on the House
side. So my relationship with the office out there and with the people I got to know at HUD all
really fit together. And it would be easy for me to pick up the phone and talk to Arlene or Pat or
whoever, and say, "Here's the problem. How do we handle this?" "Well, talk to van der Voort or
Marlin," or whatever. So you would find probably in our archives or his, letters that commented
on specific pieces of legislation.
Were there specific pieces that affected Milwaukee?
Oh, sure. You know, from Model Cities to - we talked about CETA [Comprehensive
Employment and Training Act] and the job programs. There's the -
We didn't talk about that on tape.
William Drew interview Transcript 63 Proxmire Oral History Project Oh, we didn't. There was the Neighborhood Development Program, the UDAG Program -
Urban Development Action Grants - all of those, and many others. I mean, there were
conservation programs and urban conservation programs, and housing legislation, Section 8.
And the anti-redlining kinds of—
Yeah, right, all of that. We were constantly talking about how those would affect things and the
funds for remodeling, you know, public housing; funds, which never did occur in my time, but
funds for the mentally disturbed, disabled, that were moved into public housing, public housing
for the elderly, and funds to provide some nursing care for those people as they moved in with - they were moved into the elderly programs, housing program. We talked about a lot of that stuff;
dogs in public housing, which was something that we were totally opposed to, and Prox was
absolutely in -
Favor of?
Favor of, yeah.
And it went through, didn't it?
It did indeed, yeah. He was totally committed to that.
William Drew interview Transcript 64 Proxmire Oral History Project So there were things that you disagreed on, but in general would you say he was fairly
supportive of all —
Oh, in general, yeah. And if we disagreed, we disagreed friendly.
Yeah. But you could count on him to support some of the —
Well, at least consider it, yeah. So we got our imputs. And Steve Bollinger was appointed by
President Reagan as an Assistant Secretary in HUD - Deputy Assistant Secretary - one of those titles. Anyway, he was in charge of urban development action grants and other parts of that. He
came from Columbus, Ohio, and he was the Secretary and Executive Director of the Housing
Authority down there. So as that, you get sued. I mean, if the Housing Authority is sued, you are
named. So if you have a big Housing Authority, as I did here, and you look up if Drew is being
sued, well yeah, you get this whole list of stuff. So the word was that there were a whole bunch
of people that didn't like Bollinger and writing to Proxmire's office saying, "This guy has been
sued for all kinds of stuff and he's a bad manager," and all that type of thing. So at any rate, they
called me, Steve and some ofhis friends, and they said, "Would you help me?" So I went out to
Washington and we actually wrote his testimony on top of the Hotel Washington. But I went into
Prox's office and I said, "This doesn't make any sense. Sure the guy is being sued, but me, too,
and all that." So anyway, Steve went into his hearing and he was terrified. He thought he was
going to be just filleted. And it was apiece of cake; no problems at all. And I won't say that I
had a lot to do with it, but I think I influenced - you know, it was the credibility factor of saying,
"Yeah, but I've been in that same situation," and they'd say, "Oh, okay. That makes sense."
William Drew Interview Transcript 65 Proxmire Oral History Project But Prox was running the hearing'?
Yeah.
Okay. Do you have any comments on his skill in doing that and did you hear him doing
questioning or running hearings?
Well, he was just a very quick mind, and he absorbed stuff. He just sucked it off the paper. And
he would read something, ten, twelve pages of- I'll give you an example. I drove him one time to the Brookings Institute to give a speech on - I think it was on the economy. But anyway, this
was a paper full of facts and figures and just, you know - so, anyway, we got there, and he gave
me the paper and went in to give his speech. He just remembers all that, and the same thing with
his hearings. He had all this information that he just had a head for.
He just had sort of photographic recall or something like that?
Yeah. I would think it was pretty damn close to that, yeah.
How did that change when the administration changed? So you 're working on these housing
issues, he's Chairman of the Banking Committee, sort of mid 70s to 1980, and then Reagan gets
into office, and he's no longer Chair.
William Drew interview Transcript 66 Proxmire Oral History Project Hour 2/50:00 Effects of Reagan Administration/Changes in BP's Role on Banking Committee, BP's Speculated Thoughts on Influence of Money Today
Well, he was and he wasn't. I mean, he was in for part of it. There were certain parts of the
Reagan program that he probably didn't disagree with.
Such as?
Well, I mean, Reagan was a little frugal, too. And the UDAG program and things like that that
Reagan was - I don't think he was in terrible disagreement on that. Now when the Congress
changed to Republican control, when the Senate did, that was, I think, a traumatic thing, because
all of a sudden, you're not Chairman anymore, you're a Ranking Member. And I remember
being out in Washington and in the office and I was talking to Arlene. And he came wandering
in, and Arlene said, "Oh, Senator, you have a vote. You gotta get over there." And he said, "Ah,
(sighs) I don't know why I even do this." He said, "Nobody gives a damn what I think anymore
anyway." (laughter) That's about the only time I've ever seen him kind of down on-and clearly the loss of power had -
Affected him.
Had its effect. I'll tell you one other story. When I was working out there, we were walking over to the Senate for a vote. We were walking outside across the grounds. And he was saying, "You
know, it takes so long to get ahead out here." He said, "You know, it goes by the seniority
system and all that." And he said, "You have to be around here just forever." And so I said to
William Drew Interview Transcript 67 Proxmire Oral History Project him, I said - and Carl Hayden, of course, had been there since 1913 at that point. And he was the
President pro tern, then, of the Senate. And Hayden had this very clear speaking voice. He never
gave a speech on the Senate floor, but he was a baritone and really, even in his late eighties -
anyway, so I said to the Senator, I said, "You know, I have this vision that twenty years from
now, we're going to be walking across this, and we're going to go into the Senate chamber, and
you're going to hear this voice that says in a very clear, baritone voice, 'The Senate will be in
session.'" And I said, "That will be Carl Hayden, and he'll be a hundred and twenty years old!"
(laughter) And Prox looked at me and he said, "Oh, God, just don't. . . "(laughter)
"Don't talk to me!"
Yeah, but he was concerned about his role and using the power to do what he thought needed to
be done, and it hurt him when he didn't have that.
Do you have any other thoughts on his time in the Banking Committee — issues that came up that you followed? I mean today so much of the talk is about the most recent economic crisis and the
banks and the deregulation that happened. You know, a lot of it in the '80s when Prox was on the
Banking Committee but was the Ranking Member, so maybe not directly as a result ofhis work.
But, any ideas how he would respond to it today if he were — or how he would have reacted?
Well, I think there would be a couple of differences: number one, the incredible amounts of
money that went to Senator Dodd and some of the others, from these institutions, that would not
William Drew interview Transcript 68 Proxmire Oral History Project have happened. And I, frankly, in my own mind, I think that that has influenced, either directly
or through looking the other way, in a very bad way, what has happened.
You mean it would not have happened in that he would have called them out on it?
Right. I mean, he would never have taken that. They wouldn't have been as close.
Right.
What has happened, even the incentive package that - you know, where now we don't know if there are any jobs, or- I mean, this type of thing would just do him in. And I think that the vocal
response on this stuff would be different than -1 have a feeling that it wouldn't have gotten quite
as far as it did.
Interesting.
Now I maybe - that's my prejudice, but that's really what I feel. I think that the influence of
money, and the huge amounts of money, on the part of all of these institutions, including the
ones that we own as a government, has totally skewed what has happened, and led to some
deregulation that should not have happened. If we go back - see, I'm not sure how much of this
-1 think that most of the deregulation happened after -
Prox left.
William Drew Interview Transcript 69 Proxmire Oral History Project Prox left. And I don't know how he would have really reacted to that. I would be just guessing,
but I just don't think it would have happened in the way that - or at least there would have been
a big pushback on some of this stuff. And nobody seems to be - you know, whether you like
Golden Fleece or you don't like Golden Fleece, the fact is that that did have an impact in a
symbolic way of kind of calling out some of these things. And you look at, not only the
deregulation and all this other stuff that we're going through, but how earmarks - I mean, the
huge amounts of money that we're spending on earmarks that were -1 won't say they were non
existent - but certainly it was not the same type of problem. And that, I think, goes to how we've
kind of gotten out of the categorical legislation that allowed for some ordinary, normal process to
fund these projects. And many of them need to be funded. Many of them don't.
But they went through a process.
They went through a process and they were selected and they were judged, and there was an
accountability and there was something to this, a forum. And now there's nothing. And we're
doing the stimulus package in the same way. And I think we miss his voice in the discussion of this at this point. There is none.
So in your mind, there really hasn 't been anyone who's carried on his legacy?
Um-mmm, no. (negatively) Tell me who? There's no one left. I mean, even the moderate
Democrats - you know, Bayh and - you hear from them, but you don't. I mean, they're not the
William Drew interview Transcript 70 Proxmire Oral History Project same. They don't have the same status, nor are they really committed to the -1 mean, it was
almost a crusade with him.
Well, it seems like there 'd need to be some sort of campaign finance reform in order for
somebody of that level of independence to exist today.
Yeah. That becomes a problem; Prox, because of the anomaly of him running without any
money - you know, Senator Aiken did it, but he was in a smaller State. How you would do that today, you know, is - you know, he the advantage of having spent twelve years ofhis life traveling around the State shaking hands with people, whatever, before.
Well, let me ask you a few more questions on the next tape.
Okay.
HOUR 3
Hour 3/00:00 BP's Cognitive Decline, BP's Empathy Toward Others, BP's Legacy
This is hour number three on November 23 , 2009, with Bill Drew. I think you 've done a great job encapsulating your association with Bill Proxmire. But I just wanted to open this up now to your thoughts on the latter part ofhis career and your contact with him.
William Drew interview Transcript 71 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, in 1988 when he decided not to run again, before he made the formal announcement, I had
called him and I said I'd like to talk with him, because there were questions as to whether he was
going to run again. So I met him at a hotel when he was back here on the northwest side. And I
said, "Senator, I'm ready to do a campaign again if you need." I said, "I really think that it would
be good if you ran for one more term." And he told me then, he said, "No," he said, "I'm
finished." He said, "I'm so tired of airports and hotel rooms," and he said, "I just think it's time to quit." And I said, "Well, with the changes in the Senate, maybe you'll be Chairman of the
Appropriations Committee." And he said, "No. They'll never let me do that." And, of course,
Senator Byrd had the seniority and they would move him into there. He was, of course, right on that. So I think he was just ready to -
Were you shocked that he wasn't going to run?
No. I wasn't shocked. I guess I kind of wondered what he would do.
Did you have any inkling ofhis cognitive decline?
No, not at that point. I've often wondered if he had already decided that maybe that that was
starting. I saw him once in his office in the Library of Congress after that; just in passing,
stopped in to talk to him. And then I picked him up after a speech that he gave at the Women's
Club down on the lakefront. I don't remember exactly what year that was, but it was after he had
retired. And it was when he was starting to have some problems. I mean, he was able to give a
speech and it was well received and all that. And I picked him up and we had maybe a couple of
William Drew Interview Transcript 72 Proxmire Oral History Project hours before his plane left. So I said, "Do you want to take a ride through some of the . . ." So we
drove through the center part of the City and saw some of the projects that came from stuff that
he had worked on; urban renewal projects and housing and stuff like that. And then I took him to the airport. I could tell that he was not his old self. He was very anxious because he had finished
his speech early, so I wasn't late, but I wasn't there when he came down the stairs. And I walked
in the door, and he was surrounded by this passel of folks that were adoring and asking him
questions and all that; very nice ladies. But he was getting very nervous with that. But Arlene
said, "Don't lose him. You need to make sure he gets to the gate." So I get to the airport and he
wants to be dropped off, and he doesn't want me to come in or anything. So I have this
conundrum of what I'm going to do. So anyway, I dropped him off and I quickly dumped by car
and-
Ran after him.
I caught up with him. I shadowed him from behind to make sure that he got to the gate, but he
knew where he was going. And that was the last time that I saw him.
Really'.'
Yeah, and as I said to Ellen, I had this vision -1 mean, he looked like - he was very thin at that
point, and he just kind of looked like a frail person going off into the distance. That was the last time I saw him. But, anyway, he was a good friend. He was a good friend.
William Drew interview Transcript 73 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, what's it been like to just recall some ofhis career? I think part of the motivation behind
doing such an oral history is to ensure that people know something ofhis [influence].
I'm going to tell you one more story that really gives you kind of a side of Prox that I don't think
most people understand. There was a kid from West Allis that was very badly shot up in the
Vietnam War, and his face was literally blown apart. And he was brought back to Walter Reed
[Army Hospital]. And Prox would go and see him every day. This kid was so disfigured, and I
knew that he was disfigured, but when I saw him, I literally gasped. I mean, I was prepared for it,
but not -1 mean, you just couldn't be. Anyway, this kid left Walter Reed and they thought he
was going to commit suicide. Prox was out looking for him and had the police looking for him,
and all the rest of that. But he would go and see that kid every day. And that's, you know, the
human part of the Senator that made him not only concerned about that person, but he would be
concerned about the staff and how they were - it was a concern about how they were doing
personally. And he didn't show that, necessarily, but there was this -
You knew it was there.
Yeah.
Did you ever have any conversations with him about any personal challenges in his own life,
whether it would be in his marriage, or anything that —
No, no, um-umm, never did.
William Drew Interview Transcript 74 Proxmire Oral History Project But you had a sense that he took on others' challenges, somehow, to heart.
Yeah, yeah.
Well you want that in a public servant, too.
Well, I think so, yeah. I mean, that makes them human and caring.
You know, if you could hope for the best in what people would carry on in terms ofhis legacy,
what would it be?
Oh, I guess -1 think he was totally committed to a better - trying to create a better life for
everybody. I think that was really part ofhis philosophy and his mission. And I think the other
part of it is that I would hope for somebody to kind of watch the pocketbook. I think you really
need that in politics. I thought, as I watched how we're suddenly spending all kinds of money, that he would have -1 don't know what he would have done.
Interesting to speculate. And I wonder what you think about why he took — and you did talk a
little bit about it— but he did, in my reading, come from privilege. He was raised in a fairly
upper class home. He was given a good east coast, private education. And some people who
have that background don't take on this populist concern for the working man. And I don't know
— do you have any ideas why? He came from —
William Drew interview Transcript 75 Proxmire Oral History Project I don't know why. I mean, that was just part of him.
It's interesting.
Yeah. We never talked about that type of thing.
Any other conclusions)
No. I don't think so.
7 think you did a wonderful job.
Well, thank you.
Thank you for letting me interview you.
I appreciate it. It was very good. You do a good job.
Thank you.
William Drew Interview Transcript 76 Proxmire Oral History Project