WISCONSIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY
An Oral History Interview with
MARC MAROTTA
Interviewer: .Anita Hecht, Life History Services Recording Date: January 15, 2009 Place: Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Length: 1.5 hours
Marc John Marotta was raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the eldest of two boys born to Phil Marotta and Esther Lesoon Marotta. .After graduating from Central Catholic High School in 1980, Marotta received a basketball scholarship to attend Marquette University in Milwaukee. In 1982, during his second summer of college, he served an internship in Sen. William Proxmire's office in Washington, DC.
Marotta describes the internship as demanding and influential in solidifying his democratic affiliation. He drove Sen. Proxmire around Milwaukee during his 1982 re-election campaign, and worked on such matters as the Genocide Convention, the Golden Fleece award, worker training legislation, and constituent relations.
.After earning his B.S. degree in political science and economics, with a minor in English, Marotta was named a three-time Academic All-American and received a NCAA scholarship. He used the funds to attend Harvard Law School, where he earned his JD in 1987.
In 1987, Marotta began work for Foley & Lardner LLP. One year later, he became the treasurer of the Wisconsin Democratic Party, and in 1992, he ran for U.S. Congress from Wisconsin's 5th congressional district. Between 2003 and 2005, Marc served as Secretary of Administration under Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle. PROJECT NAME: PROXMIRE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Verbatim Interview Transcript NARRATOR: MARC MAROTTA INTERVIEWER: Anita Hecht INTERVIEW DATE: January 15, 2009 INTERVIEW LOCATION: Milwaukee, Wisconsin INTERVIEW LENGTH: Approximately 1.5 Hours
KEY: MM Marc Marotta BP Bill Proxmire
SUBJECT INDEX
HOUR1
Hour 1/00:00 MM Family History Beginning Interest in Politics Internship with BP
Hour 1/10:08 MM's Introduction to BP BP's Personality Duties as Intern
Hour 1/20:00 The Genocide Treaty Office Debates BP's Views on Middle East/Human Rights Issues
Hour 1/30:25 Golden Fleece Awards BP's Speculated Views on Today's Bailouts 1982 Campaign
Hour 1/40:00 Campaigning with BP BP's Speaking Style BP's Opposition to Senate Pay Raise
Hour 1/50:25 Impact of Internship on MM Post Internship Contact with BP MM's Political Involvement
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project HOUR 2
Hour 2/00:00 BP's Exercise Regimen MM's Interest in Law/Politics '92 Congressional Campaign BP's Retirement/Alzheimer's
Hour 2/10:00 Political Toll on Family Life BP's Legacy Campaign Finance Reform
Hour 2/20:00 BP's Devotion to Public Service/Influence on Others
HOUR1
Hour 1/00:00 MM Family History, Beginning Interest in Politics, Internship with BP
The date is January 15* in the year 2009. My name is Anita Hecht and I have the great pleasure and honor of interviewing Marc John Marotta in his office at Foley and Lardner Law Firm, here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on behalf of the William Proxmire Oral History Project for the
Wisconsin Historical Society. So welcome to this interview, and thank you for agreeing to participate.
Thank you, Anita. Thanks for doing this.
Let's begin with a little bit of information about you and your background. First of all, when and where were you born?
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in 1962, in November.
And you grew up in Pittsburgh?
Grew up in Pittsburgh; went to school there all the way through high school. And left Pittsburgh
at the age of seventeen to come to Marquette University to attend school and play basketball on a
basketball scholarship.
Tell me a little bit about your family background. Who was in your family and where did they
come from?
My father, Phil, his ancestors came from Naples, Italy. They came over in the 1920s. My father
was born in 1931, obviously raised during a very difficult time. My grandmother lived with us
for about nine years and actually spoke just broken English. So when I was younger, I spoke
both English and Italian. And one of my biggest regrets is not keeping up with that, actually. You
know, at that time, you didn't want to really look like you were much different than the other
kids, and speaking Italian sort of made you look a little bit different. But anyway, my mother's
side of the family came from the Middle East. My grandmother, her family is from Syria. She
was born and raised in Pittsburgh. My grandfather was from a little town called Tiba, just outside
of Jerusalem on the West Bank. And he came over in the '20s; was in the carpet business, you
know, sort of the door-to door-thing. A lot of people from the Middle East, I think, were in that.
He ended up doing very well, both in that business and in the real estate business. Both of them
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript A Proxmire Oral History Project died, really, like, two weeks apart - both my grandmother and grandfather, who were divorced
for, I don't know, as long as I could ever remember, but kind of always did things together with that family - died two weeks apart in 1986.
Wow. Tell me about choosing Pittsburgh, why either side of the family chose Pittsburgh. Do you
know?
You know, I really don't know. It's a good question. I think that a lot of this has to do with
where your ancestors ended up before you came over, you know. Pittsburgh has a heavy
population of Napolitans on the Italian side, just like Milwaukee is virtually all - any Italian who
grew up in Milwaukee is Sicilian. And so I think that a lot of them sort of migrated to the place,
or immigrated to the place, that they knew from their home country.
Right, right. So your mother's family was in the carpet business. What did your father do for a
living?
My father was - for a long time, he was a draftsman. This is before the CAD [computer aided
design] systems came out and all the technology, and so engineers had to utilize draftsman,
actually, to do that kind of work. And then he later, I'd say probably in the early '80s, during a
really tough economic time in Pittsburgh where unemployment was in the low twenties, he
worked in the Veterans Administration for a little while just to sort of earn a living, and did that
for two years. And then joined my grandfather's business, and he's been involved in that since.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 5 Proxmire Oral History Project Now, was religion big in the family?
Raised Roman Catholic. My mother was Syrian - she was raised Syrian Orthodox, but her
family wasn't as religious. We went to church every Sunday. I went to Saint Andrews Preschool.
I went to kindergarten at a public school but then Sacred Heart Grade School, Central Catholic
High School, Marquette University. But that really wasn't - it was because those were good
schools and they had good values. It didn't really have any particular - you know, the fact that they were religious schools, I don't think it was the determining factor.
How about a Palestinian identity? Did that come down to you ?
Yeah, yeah. You know, that was obviously - my grandfather grew up in what was then Palestine
and so that issue, the dispute in the Middle East and all the Middle Eastern issues, was the
subject at the dinner table pretty frequently.
How would you characterize your family's political activities or affiliations?
My family actually wasn't all that active politically. I'd say they leaned Democratic. Pittsburgh,
at the time, was a pretty heavily Democratic town, blue collar town - still is. But my father voted
for Reagan in 1980, and he's told me that that's the only time he's ever voted for a Republican
and the only time he will. So, who knows? (laughter)
One of his regrets in life?
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 6 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah, I guess so.
When did you become interested in politics? Was that early on or later in your [adult life]?
You know, really later. I would do some volunteering here and there when I was growing up in
Pittsburgh for local offices, people that I knew, fathers of friends of mine who were running for
local offices. But I really became interested in my freshman year at Marquette. I had a class with
Father Tim O'Brien, who now heads the Aspen Institute - Aspen Center for Political Science in
Washington. [I] had him my freshman year and it was a general political science course, and
became very interested in politics. At that time, [I] was exposed to some Wisconsin politicians,
including Senator Proxmire, Les Aspin, Clement Zablocki, a couple others that I met. And that
caused my interest level to rise in politics.
So you came to Marquette in 1980.
1980; yep, in the fall of'80.
What did you know about Wisconsin?
I'd been here twice - two or three times. Marquette used to utilize this medalist basketball camp
as sort of a recruiting tool. So they'd invite high school players to come and be counselors, and that was my exposure to - and so I'd been, you know, in Milwaukee a couple of times. You
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 7 Proxmire Oral History Project know, it was very much like Pittsburgh - an ethnic melting pot, industrial based, people were friendly. Although for me, it was a place where I could have my own identity and yet still feel very comfortable with the people that I was going to be surrounded with at Marquette and throughout the city.
So you came in 1980. You had the political science class. And then what happened next in your political life?
You know, I started to major in Political Science and then in Economics. In 1982,1 decided - that was after my sophomore year -1 went back to Pittsburgh after my freshman year and ran a youth program for what was called the Ozanam Culture Center - O-Z-A-N-A-M, named after a
French African philanthropist, Frederic Ozanam - and, anyway, did that. And then my sophomore year, my interest in politics increased to the point where I really wanted to do an internship and applied for Senator Proxmire's internship; was encouraged to do that. On the Hill
[Capitol Hill] it was known as really one of the more competitive internships. It was really based
-1 sound like I'm tooting my own horn, now - but it was really based on merit as opposed to, you know, "Here's a political contact." You know, Proxmire really didn't have to play to any of that stuff. I mean, he never raised any money. He was sort of out on his own. So his need to appoint people for political purposes was pretty minimal. And so, you know, it was one of those where you really felt like you were going to do a lot of substantive work as opposed to just opening the mail.
And you had a pretty good record by then, already.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 8 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah, yeah, yeah; a pretty good record academically.
What did the application process entail?
I think there was some forms to fill out. You had to submit grades and your academic
qualifications. Proxmire really did value participation and extracurricular activities in addition to
grades. You know, that was an important piece of it. He wanted people that were relatively well-
rounded. And then you had to have letters of recommendation.
Hour 1/10:08 MM's Introduction to BP, BP's Personality, Duties as Intern
Did you have to go through an interview with him?
I did not go through a personal interview with him, no. I talked with some folks on his staff, though. It was a long time ago, though, but I don't remember.
Do you remember who that was?
You know, I don't remember if it was Mort or Larry, or - one of those guys. I can't remember
right now. Do you have those names? Like Mort and Larry - is it Larry Patton and Mort
Schwartz? Yeah.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 9 Proxmire Oral History Project So how many interns did they take?
You know, I think there was three or four that summer. I think . . . shoot, that summer, in 1982, there was - it's kind of interesting, because I know Ron Kind - that was after me - was an intern.
Mark Meyer, who's a State Senator on the Public Service Commission - he was a State Senator
- he was an intern as well for Prox. Um . . . Pattillo was one woman's name. I can't remember
her first name. But most people went on and did pretty interesting things. I had a law school
classmate of mine at Harvard who was also, around the same time, an intern; an African
American guy. I'll think of his name in a second.
Had you followed Prox's career before that? What did you know about him prior to starting?
He was very well known because of the Golden Fleece Award, his independent streak, his
constant railing against government waste, his opposition to the Vietnam War. So I think he was
a fairly well known Senator. That's sort of what I knew, was generally what others knew. When I
was at Marquette, I had the good fortune - you know, I got to know John Finerty. One of the
advantages of playing for Marquette was that you did have an opportunity to get out in the
community and meet people. And they knew I was interested in politics, so it helped. And Father
O'Brien would introduce me around and others would introduce me to active members in the
business and political communities in Wisconsin. So I got to know Bill Drew a little bit, John
Finerty. I'm trying to think of some of the others that were, you know, close Proxmire affiliates.
So playing basketball was good networking?
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 10 Proxmire Oral History Project Great. It was terrific.
Describe your first meeting him.
The first time I met him - of course, you know, he was this legendary figure. And I was in the
office for a couple of days. I think he was in Wisconsin, nd so he wasn't in the office at the time.
And I was sitting there at a table. And there was a tradition at the office. Every afternoon, they'd
go out and bring popcorn in for everybody. So people would expect this. So there was a big bowl
of popcorn on the table. And I was sitting at this - it was kind of a little conference table - where
a couple of the interns were working. I was concentrating on some project. And, you know, I'm
6'6", and so my knees were right up against the table. And I'll never forget. I got a tap on the
shoulder and he said, "Marc, Bill Proxmire. Nice to meet you." And I wanted to stand up and
shake his hand, you know? And so I stood up very quickly and the table went up in the air, the
popcorn went all over the place. I mean, it was just the most embarrassing thing. I mean, he just
sort of laughed about it. He kind of laughed, and then also sort of ignored it like it didn't even
happen, you know? So it was embarrassing at first, but that was my first encounter.
You had sports in common?
Yes. You know, he said to me one time that there were only three things he really knew a lot
about, and one was sports. The other was Shakespeare and, of course, politics.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 11 Proxmire Oral History Project 7 didn't know he knew about Shakespeare.
Yeah. And I think he was somebody who really appreciated the arts. In fact, I think at one time
he was involved in some arts organizations, I believe.
How else would you describe his personality as you got to know him better?
Very, very insightful, friendly. I mean, a very, very friendly guy; funny. He liked sarcasm. He
wasn't shy about a little teasing and ribbing here and there; always very, very accommodating. I
guess I didn't appreciate it until -1 appreciate it now the kind of demands that you have as a
public servant, particularly a US Senator. But, like, when I was at Marquette, the year after I
graduated, I had a basketball camp in the summer - was that a year - it was a year or two after I
graduated. In the summer, I had a basketball camp. And I called Senator Proxmire to see if he'd talk to the kids about sports in America, and the value of sports - beyond just being on the
basketball court or the football field. And he, you know, in two seconds just said, "Yes. I'll be there and I'll do it." In retrospect, having been involved with - as a public servant myself with a
busy schedule and, of course, seeing the Governor and now dealing with members of the
legislature and Congress on a more frequent basis, you know, him just saying that - it wasn't like
you had to really work your way through all these schedulers and everything else. I mean, he was
a very friendly -
And accessible.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 12 Proxmire Oral History Project Accessible person. Which was one of the reasons why he was so popular.
Personable, good sense of humor.
Personable, good sense of humor.
Did he share a lot of personal history with you? Did you know much about his private world?
He didn't really get into his - he talked a lot about his son. And his son and I are about the same
age.
Douglas?
Not Ted, but Douglas. And so I got to know Douglas a little bit. He'd talk frequently about
Douglas, and Ted, to some extent. And I don't think it's a reflection on the other kids. It was just that they had sort of similar interests that I did.
Well, let's talk a little bit about the internship. Describe what the job entailed.
There was research, writing, constituency services. So a lot of the writing involved researching a
particular issue and providing a summary memo to staff that would ultimately go as a briefing
document to the Senator. Of course, the famous Genocide Convention speeches were a big part
of that. I think I wrote ten of them that summer. And, you know, he spoke every day and
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 13 Proxmire Oral History Project supported the Genocide Convention and remained, at that time, until it passed in, I think, 1986,
he was vigilant in railing against the US Senate and people responsible for not having signed it,
and felt very passionate about that. I think he admired Robert LaFollette, and he went on in that tradition as sort of a guy who maybe wasn't as ideologically committed to any particular issue -
or, I shouldn't say ideologically - ideologically committed to any particular party line or party
philosophy - but clearly felt passion about certain issues, and clearly believed in his positions.
And so while he may not have been lockstep with his party [Democratic] or even, maybe, my
guess is - I'm sure he didn't do much polling - but if he did a lot of polling back then, he
probably was on the other side of the popularity line on a number of issues in Wisconsin. But
Wisconsinites like somebody who believes in issues. And, you know, one of the most startling
examples of that, I thought, was in 2004, six percent of Wisconsinites voted for both Russ
Feingold and George Bush. And, you know, there's no explanation for that other than - you
know, from a pure philosophical standpoint - other than the perception was that these two
candidates believed very strongly in their positions, and weren't viewed as sort of going with the tide, or taking a poll and then coming out on their positions.
Straight party loyalists.
Right. And so I think that he was very much like that.
Hour 1/20:00 The Genocide Treaty, Office Debates, BP's Views on Middle East/Human Rights Issues
So he was a crusader for human rights, obviously.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 14 Proxmire Oral History Project Yes.
Did he ever tell you about what made him take that on? What experience would have motivated
that?
The Jewish Genocide, at the hands of the Nazis was the thing, I think, that he could never - he thought we should never forget. And that that was but one of a number of genocides that had
been taking place, many of which were ignored. And that the United States ought to be the leader
in human rights. He thought it was an embarrassment, internationally, for us not to have been a
part of that. I don't know, beyond that, if there was any other personal encounters. But I know that the World War II genocide was what caused it.
Do you know much about the opposition he encountered?
Yeah. The opposition was from largely both southern Republicans and Democrats who did not
like US foreign policy to be dictated by some international cooperative agreement. It's the same that you hear about - we shouldn't be part of the United Nations. The United Nations ought not
be dictating our foreign policy. And so there were all these examples that were provided by -
like, for example, they thought the Genocide Convention was too broadly drafted, that it would
include bussing in the United States. The movement of one group of people to another, where it
was mandatory bussing. You know, that kind of stuff. They would make all these crazy
assertions.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 15 Proxmire Oral History Project Who were his main opponents?
I think it was, you know, Jesse Helms, Strom Thurmond. You know, there were probably some
others. I don't remember who else, but those were two of the main opponents to it. You had to
write a speech every day, and it had to be sort of a different speech. You couldn't give the same
speech. So you had to - fortunately, it was hard to find something on genocide every day, you
know? And so you'd have to do a lot of research, and research at that time was not nearly as easy
as it is today. I mean, you can Google a bunch of stuff now and come up with it, but back then
you had to read actually. I remember going through ten, twelve newspapers every day trying to
get a hook to write the speech on.
Tell me about research in his office in general. I've heard several times how he really used the
tools of his office and the Senate to do investigations. Were there other things you researched? I
know Golden Fleece stuff.
Golden Fleece Awards. We talked a little bit about the - it was the successor to the
Comprehensive Employment Training Act - it was the job training act at the time. That's one of the things that I did. Regardless of what people would think of him, he was very, very bright.
And so it couldn't just be this sort of on the surface, one or two page memo. It had to be in depth.
And he had a very sharp staff. And his staff would - and this was very, very helpful to me - the
staff would go through the memo. They would make comments. They'd edit it. They'd sit down
with you and tell you how you could have done it better. So he really wanted people to get
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 16 Proxmire Oral History Project something out of this internship. I mean, he wanted to generate people that would do it, in fact, they did, and that is, to go and serve and be a part of the political process and perhaps serve in
public office. But the research was - it was not the Ronald Reagan, or George Bush, you know,
"Give me one page on this," because he was somebody who wanted to master the issues, and he
did.
7 think you told me at one point that you used to have office debates.
Yes.
Tell me about that.
Yeah. With each staff member, including the interns - and this was a way for the Senator to stay
sharp on all these issues - you would schedule an appointment to have a debate with him in his
office on an issue that you chose. Now, he wouldn't know what that issue is. But you had to
choose a position opposite his position on the issue. So, for example, you know, gun control. I
mean, he was actually generally opposed to most gun control measures which, again took him
out of the [the party line] - he was anti-choice on the abortion issue. You know, there were some things that just, you know, kind of cut against the grain of the party and maybe a lot of his
constituents. And so you'd go in there. And you could research it for three weeks and have
everything down, and then you'd present your position. And it was a way for him to just make
sure that he was on top of all these issues, and to anticipate what he might get from opponents in the Senate, maybe political opponents, you know, opposition in Senate races. I worked with him
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 17 Proxmire Oral History Project on the issue in the Middle East. And I thought that his position ought to be more balanced in the
Middle East.
What was his position?
He was very, very supportive of our efforts to support Israel. And I didn't have a problem with
supporting Israel, making sure that Israel was a strong democracy, safe, and a strong ally of ours,
and thrived. I just thought that ignoring the Arab World, you know, to sort of focus exclusively
on Israel, was a bad policy; that this had to be a much more even handed approach. Because it's
an area, and you could see the volatility in 1982 with, you know, the whole situation in Beirut.
There had already been a couple of major wars and it just was an area that looked like it was so -
it was a timely issue. And sometimes you'd just have to pick an opposite issue, whether you felt
like it or not. You'd pick an issue. I mean, he was very, very good on that, and explained his
strong support for Israel, why he did it. And, you know, he actually convinced -1 walked out of there pretty convinced. And it was one of things that convinced me that we've got to have a
really, really strong relationship with Israel. On the other hand, I will tell you from that point on,
it was really kind of interesting and flattering to me, personally, that he would always ask me
about what was going on in the Middle East, what I thought about this, particular policy.
After you left the internship?
After I left, yeah. And I'd see him and he remembered that, you know, and he would ask me
about it. And he'd listen.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 18 Proxmire Oral History Project So not only did he influence you, but you think you might have had some sort of a voice in his head?
Perhaps.
That he listened to?
Perhaps, yeah. I don't think he was doing it just to be nice. I mean, he actually wasn't like that.
He wasn't, you know, going to ask questions just to be - no, he would have been just friendly.
But asking a question like that just to be nice was not really his style. Sort of like Doyle. Doyle just never would do that.
Was he very engaged in foreign affairs or was it more of a side interest? I know he wasn't on the
Committee.
He wasn't on the Committees.
77e still wanted to be independent about some of the —
It was an issue, yeah. He had to vote on them, obviously, even though he wasn't on the
Committees.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 19 Proxmire Oral History Project You 've mentioned gun control and abortion. Do you think those were just ideological stances he
took?
Yeah. You know in Wisconsin -1 think that the gun control legislation back then was probably a
little bit more worrisome to hunters and outdoorsmen in Wisconsin than what you see today. I
mean, today, with all the gang violence, the handgun violence - most of the gun control
legislation is geared toward that, and so I think there's more room for compromise. At the time, I think it was perceived as a threat to sort of the outdoors way of life in Wisconsin. And then two,
on the abortion issue, his father was a physician, and I think his father was sort of strongly -
well, he was, apparently - strongly opposed - this was when he grew up in Lake Forest - was
strongly opposed to abortion. I think he grew up with that. And, you know, it wasn't an issue that
- he wasn't like Henry Hyde, but he had his own beliefs on that issue.
Do you think his position was fueled more by his beliefs than political kind of expediency and
constituents?
Yeah. Again, I haven't looked at the polls back then. But Wisconsin was viewed as a pretty
progressive State. While we were switching over to a Republican Governor at the time, from
Marty Schreiber to Lee Sherman Dreyfus, but, you know, a pretty moderate Republican. And
you had Gaylord Nelson and him [Proxmire] in the US Senate. I think some of his issues - like,
for example, he wasn't - if we were sitting here today and there was a big stimulus package in
Washington, and you're trying to rely on him to actually get a big allocation of that back to our
State, you might as well forget it, right? He has his own beliefs, and he's not going to do it.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 20 Proxmire Oral History Project Hour 1/30:25 Golden Fleece Awards, BP's Speculated Views on Today's Bailouts, 1982 Campaign
Bring home the bacon.
Yeah. That upset a lot of people, too, that he wouldn't do that, but that was his philosophy. And
he wasn't going to move from it.
Well, it's an interesting time you were there. That's when the whole Reagan revolution began.
Yeah.
How did he feel about Reagan and some of the deficit spending that the US got into? That really
hadn 't quite happened yet.
I think he was opposed to a lot of what was going on. I don't think he had a lot of respect for
what was taking place then; you know, the whole trickledown theory. His feeling at the time as I
recall, and again, that was a long time ago, was that this was really sort of a boondoggle for the
wealthy and that it was sort of presented under the pretext of, "This is going to help everybody,"
but that ultimately it was going to create a much larger divide in our society between the rich and the poor. Ultimately that happened. I mean, there were some things that probably came out of the
Reagan reforms that were okay. While he held strong in his beliefs, I mean, it wasn't like he was just, "Here's what I feel, and if the facts are opposite, I'm just going to change the facts."
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 21 Proxmire Oral History Project 77e was open minded?
Yeah. He was open minded to it. And he apologized to people sometimes for those Golden
Fleece Awards, you know, where maybe the research was beneficial and maybe it was
worthwhile. And he realized that and changed his position.
Do you remember any specific Golden Fleeces that came out when you were there or that you
worked on?
I wanted to get a list of Golden Fleeces to see, because I thought that this - you know, one where they were having alcohol - they were, I think, having certain fish taste tequila versus some other
form of alcohol to see how they got - there was probably something like that, and I think that he
said something like, "You can do that with human beings and not have to pay a dime to have it
done," or something like that. I thought that might have - but, again, I don't want to be
inaccurate of that, because a lot of those sort of all ran together.
Did you think it was a useful tactic?
I did.
To curb wasteful spending)
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 22 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, yeah. And a lot of things that he probably - you know, some of the things that he pointed
out, you know, were small by comparison to the whole federal budget. But it did highlight that
we were on a road toward wasteful spending. We were spending entirely too much; that
government was not as lean as it should have been. And had, I think, more members of Congress
realized that, we'd probably be in a little different situation than we are right now.
Well it's interesting, because he was for less spending, which sometimes is attributed to the
Republican philosophy.
Yeah.
And yet he seemed to support good Democratic legislation for education and job training and all
those things.
Yes.
So it wasn't as if he wanted to slash funding for good programs, it sounds like.
Right, right, right. He had his basic philosophy, and that was that we ought to have as much
government as we need, but no more, no less.
You also said that —
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 23 Proxmire Oral History Project That's sort of a Mario Cuomo line too, I think. I'm not sure. But that, I think, was his
philosophy. It wasn't like he wanted to do away with government. He just didn't like the
earmarks. He didn't like the whole notion that powerful members of Congress could just direct
funds back to their States that really didn't seem like they were furthering some important policy
objective.
So what do you think he would have thought about the bailouts now, either the financial industry
or the auto industry?
He was opposed, I think, to the bailouts in the past. You know, I remember, I think the auto
industry bailouts, the New York City bailout, I believe - and, again, I'd check that, but I'm pretty
sure he was opposed to those. He might have been opposed to this. I mean, I don't know. This is
so widespread and such a difficult situation that it's hard to say how he would have thought
about this. But I think that he was generally of the opinion that we live in a free market society,
and that people succeed and fail every day. And that we shouldn't selectively support an entity that's failed and provide government support when we let all these other entities fail and the
government doesn't do anything. It's a certain basic fairness to him. And I don't think that he thought it was a good precedent to set, either, that the government ought to get involved in
picking winners and losers in economic times. I don't know how he would have felt. It'd be
interesting to see how -1 think some of the staff members who were with him for a long time
and were probably in rooms with him when he was making some of these decisions - how they
maybe would have commented on that.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 24 Proxmire Oral History Project You said he received the third most amount of constituent mail of any Senator?
Yeah. At the time when I was there, that was the - he used to get just bales of mail in every day.
I think it was next to Cranston and Kennedy. I don't remember who was first or second; those two for obvious reasons. One represented a very, very large state and the other, obviously very,
very well known. But because he was somebody who was fairly controversial, well known -1
remember his name came up in All in the Family [television show] one time.
In All in the Family?
In All in the Family, yeah. I remember Edith Bunker always saying, "Proxmire. I like how that
name sounds." And she kept saying it over and over again. And I can't remember how it came
up. It came up in some context.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah. We should try to look that up, too. But it did come up. And he made sure -1 mean, you
had to respond to every piece of mail.
So you did some of that?
Yeah. Yeah, we'd go through. We'd divide it all up and you'd have to respond.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 25 Proxmire Oral History Project Any particular memories of pieces of mail or controversial issues at the time?
Nothing in particular.
Now, 1982 was also a re-election year for him. How involved were you in the campaigns or
talking about them?
I would go around with him. You know, he was campaigning for re-election in the fall. So it was
after my internship.
You were back in Wisconsin.
I came back in Wisconsin. In September and October, I'd go around with him, just driving him
around. I'd stay with him, watching him campaign. I think he ran against Scott McCallum,
actually. I think Scott McCallum was a State Senator from Fond du Lac at the time. And, again,
he didn't do any television, didn't raise any money. It was pretty remarkable. And I would pick
him up at the Budgetel. He must have thought I was just such a - you know, at times, which is
when it came to, I think he thought I was a bright guy, but kind of spacey when it came to sort of
like the logistical - we can talk about that. But I remember, I didn't know much about
Wisconsin. They'd say he was going to be at the Budgetel. Well, I didn't realize that there were
seventy-five Budgetels, you know, at the time. I'm exaggerating. But say there were five, you
know. I looked in the phonebook for the Budgetel, and I called the Budgetel that I thought he
was staying at. Of course, I end up showing up, like, an hour late because he was in another
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 26 Proxmire Oral History Project Budgetel and I had to find out - you know, you didn't have cell phones or anything. It was very,
very hard at the time. But he was always very understanding about that. But I was in my prime
condition; obviously playing basketball at Marquette. And I'd pick him up at seven in the
morning and by three o'clock I was sort of begging him -in the back of my mind. I didn't say this, but - begging for him to stop. "Can we just end this? I'm just exhausted!" You know, he
was -1 don't know how old he was at the time, but that was '82. So he died - he was 90,1 think,
when he died in 2005?
Seventy's.
Yeah. He was in his '70s; incredible energy.
Hour 1/40:00 Campaigning with BP, BP's Speaking Style, BP's Opposition to Senate Pay Raise
So tell me a typical day. So you got him at seven in the morning.
You'd get him at seven in the morning. He'd say, "Well, let's go over here to George Webb
Restaurant," you know, "I'm going to go over there and shake hands with everybody." So he'd
go in the restaurant and they'd be having breakfast. "Hi. I'm Bill Proxmire, your Senator. How
are you?" And he'd engage in conversation with everybody. He'd go from table to table and talk
with them. And then he'd go somewhere and maybe give a speech. He would go to the State
Fair. I remember going to the State Fair with him. It could have been - probably it was in
August. I think probably right when I got back, he was at the State Fair. It could have been
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 27 Proxmire Oral History Project another year. But he would go to the State Fair. I remember going to a Brewer game. You know,
he'd stand outside. He'd shake everybody's hands. He'd go to other restaurants. I mean, it was
all him. It wasn't like he had -
Security, or —
Three people, security, all this sort of stuff telling him where to go.
What were you doing?
I was just driving. And then I'd go. I'd walk with him.
And he exhausted you?
I was exhausted. If there was any more to do, he would have kept doing it. But at that point,
nothing else could be done. He'd go to Oktoberfest over at Bavarian Field. I think we went there
once. And he shook everybody's hands. And people would criticize him because, you know, there would be - Republicans would say, "I couldn't stand that. . . I hope somebody beats ya. I
hope you lose!" And he'd say, "C'mon, nice guy like you? How could you feel that way?" You,
he'd completely diffuse them. He would never take the bait, you know. I think he understood.
"Here's a guy. I'm not going to change his mind." And, you know, there's no usefulness in
reacting.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 28 Proxmire Oral History Project So he didn't get into big political debates when he was shaking hands?
No. I think that if somebody asked him a question, he'd tell him his position and all that. I mean, there were people that were - as you can imagine when you're seeing thousands and thousands
of people -there were people, especially at sporting events, they'd had a lotto drink, you know, they'd make comments. And sometimes those comments aren't the nicest comments. But he
dealt with it. I always admired how he dealt with it. Now he always said - and you probably
have heard this story - about how you shake hands at the same - no matter where he went, if he
was going to repeat there, he'd always shake hands at the same place. So like County Stadium,
you know, I'm just giving an example, but let's say he was out in front of the Hank Aaron statue,
or he'd be in front of this particular exhibit at the State Fair. And so when people would come up to him, they'd say, "I met you last year at County Stadium." And he'd say, "Oh, yeah, in front of the Hank Aaron exhibit." And they'd say, "Yeah. How did you remember?" And they would just
be amazed that he remembered where it was.
77e was very calculated, it sounds like.
Yeah.
77e really had a whole vision of how this needed to work.
Yeah.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 29 Proxmire Oral History Project And who knows where he got that? Was there another politician he modeled himself after that
way?
I don't know. You know, I don't know if LaFollette -1 don't think anybody quite - and
sometimes, his hands would literally be - his hands would be really sore. He wasn't a big guy. It
wasn't like he was short, but he was always thin. He didn't have big hands like I do. I mean, he
literally shook thousands of hands a day.
Did you have occasion to eat with him or be exposed to his health regime?
He'd carry this, like, grain with him in a little plastic bag, and he'd get a little yogurt. He did
have these philosophies. Obviously he wrote a book about it, I think, nutrition. And he was
passionate about that. I would think that today he would be - in this whole - be disturbed by how
much sugar and how poorly our kids eat, and maybe condition federal funds for school food
programs to be - you have to have it - and I think there is some of that already, obviously. But
he would be somebody I would think that would take the sodas and the sugar and everything else
out of the schools.
Out of the vending machines?
Try to be outspoken on that, even using a bully pulpit to do it, I think.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 30 Proxmire Oral History Project You mentioned hearing him speak a couple of times. Can you talk a little about his speaking
abilities?
You know, very articulate. He had sort of a -1 don't want to say - kind of a radio voice. It
wasn't deep, but it was distinct. And he was very, very sharp. He wasn't, by any stretch -1
mean, he wasn't really the -1 would say he wasn't charismatic in the way you see an Obama or a
Kennedy or somebody that would move people. He was more practical about the way he
approached these issues. He was funny. But he would sort of get right to the point. But he wasn't
somebody where you'd see tears in the audience, or people standing up and applauding. You
know, what you knew about him was that he was going to be there every day doing what he thought was best for the State and for the Country; that, here's a guy who didn't miss roll call
votes, is out there shaking hands every weekend. Even though he lived in Washington and didn't
really have a home in Wisconsin for a long time, he would still stay so connected to people. You
know, so it wasn't like, "Here's a guy that moves me."
Right. I understand. What about his legislating? He wasn't known for making backroom deals.
Right.
What were his methods of getting his agenda across)
That's hard for me to comment. I would think that others would be more involved in that.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 31 Proxmire Oral History Project 7 know people were worried of his filibustering at times.
Yeah, right.
They knew that was a big one of his.
He would do that.
Did you see him on the Senate floor? Did you go down there sometimes with him?
Yeah, um-hmm. (affirmatively) You know, he wasn't the most popular guy, obviously. He didn't
make deals. He was doing things on his own. He wasn't towing the Party line.
Any particular controversies you remember or conflicts he had with other Congressmen or
women?
Oh, you know, I remember at that time there was a big, you know, the pay raise was an issue.
The Senate wanted to increase its - you know, we had a deficit. Things were not going well.
There was a movement to increase salaries for Senators. And, of course, he fought against that
very passionately; said he wouldn't take the increase. And then you see, you know, Feingold
does that and Herb [Kohl] does it. And it was symbolic. Most US Senators would say, "We need
good people in the Senate. You need to pay them accordingly, or else it's hard to get good people
in the Senate. They're going to increase our salary by seven thousand, that's seven hundred
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 32 Proxmire Oral History Project thousand dollars a year. This isn't a big deal." Well, to him, symbolically it was a big deal. And,
"We've got to live by the same kind of standards that the American public has to live by." And that ticked people off. And that was just an example of one of many issues. I can't think of all of them now, but I think at that time that was a big issue that ticked people off.
Did you disagree with him on anything that you remember?
Well, yeah. I disagreed with him on the - I'm pro-choice. I disagree with him a little bit on gun
control. I thought that that was, you know. I liked the fact that he didn't cut deals and I liked the
fact that he didn't bring home the bacon, because I thought more US Senators should be like that.
On the other hand, like when you're the only one doing that, you know, it's kind of - you can
maybe do more and advance your agenda a little bit more and perhaps advance the State's
agenda a little bit more by being a little bit more cooperative. You know, the thing about it is, I think with some people like, you know, with this President that's leaving office in a couple of
days [George W. Bush], he'd believe in things and, you know, they just simply weren't
supported by the facts. And there was no thought that was going into it. It was more just this sort
of political, "This is what we think has to happen." With Proxmire, you respect the fact that he's
very, very bright. He analyzes these. He comes up with a position and you just disagree. But that's fine. I mean, I'd rather have a leader that I think has really thought about this, whether it's
Republican or Democrat.
So anything else about your internship? It was three months long.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 33 Proxmire Oral History Project Hour 1/50:25 Impact of Internship on MM, Post-Internship Contact with BP, MM's Political Involvement
I should tell you that there was a time when I was - this was in the first week or two -1 was
given the task of picking him up at Reagan, what was then Washington National [Airport]. I
don't know if you have this down. But I was given the task of picking him up. I was reading a
newspaper. He was coming out of the airplane out of the gate. Of course, I missed him. Now there's all these people, and he's looking for where his ride's supposed to be. I finally catch up
with him. "Oh, Marc. How are you? Thanks. Where's the car?" I said, "Well, the car's out in one
of these remote lots." I didn't have that much money and I didn't know where to park, and it was
my first time, really, at Washington National Airport, later Reagan National Airport. And I didn't
realize that there was an area there to go and pick up Congressmen and Senators. That's where
he went and he was looking around. So I said, "Well, my car's out here." So he said, "Well, let's
go to the car." And, of course, we have to take, you know, three buses in order to get there. I'm
in the wrong part of the airport. I can't find the car. I mean, I'm sweating bullets now because,
you know, I'm thinking that he's probably thinking, "What kind of mistake have I made by
bringing this guy to the internship? First he knocks over all the popcorn. Now he doesn't even
know where he is in the airport." And he said to me, "You know, I've been in the US Senate now
for twenty-five years. And I've been back and forth almost every weekend and flown into this
airport, and I've never seen this part of the airport before." And we're still looking around. It was
literally, like, thirty-five minutes to look for it. It seemed like it was two hours and thirty-five
minutes. And we finally find my car. We get in. And, you know, it's this kind of broken down,
old Pontiac. And the gas fumes were coming right through the air conditioning system. It was a
real hot day, so you had to have the air conditioning on. And there was just gas fumes coming
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 34 Proxmire Oral History Project through. I'd gotten used to it, but he was wondering what I was trying to do to him. And it just
couldn't have gone worse, really. But I just dropped him off at his house in Cleveland Park. And
he invited me in and we had a great dinner and I met all the family and stayed afterward. And,
you know, they said normally he goes to sleep late [early], but he decided to stay up late and we talked politics. It was great, you know. It kind of started off that relationship.
Sounds like you had a good connection with him.
Yeah.
So the internship ends. Did it influence, do you think, the next steps that you took in your career?
Absolutely, yeah. When I left there, I was really - I was inspired by politics, by the political
process. You know, I knew that there was a bunch of people that were cynical. But I was able to
see that there were a lot of people that were devoted to doing things the right way. And
particularly being with him was one thing. It was great to see - here was a guy who had just, you
know, these very strong beliefs in where he wanted to see the country go, see the State go, and that's inspiring, whether you agree with him or not - that in and of itself is inspiring.
77e wasn't cynical as a person?
Well, he was cynical, I think, a little bit - no, he wasn't cynical as a person. He was critical of those who did things for politically expedient purposes, but he wasn't cynical as a person.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 35 Proxmire Oral History Project So you came away with it with some inspiration to continue to work in politics?
Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
And you did, and you had a little bit more contact with him later on.
Yeah, yeah.
First of all, tell me about leaving the office. Was there an exit interview?
Yeah, there was some exit interviews and all that. He gave you an exit interview, which was
very, very nice.
It was a pretty demanding internship?
Yeah, it was demanding, sure, sure. Also, I was trying to play basketball at the same time,
because it was pretty important. And I got to meet Bill Bradley. He set that up for me. I got to
know Bradley pretty well after that, and talk to him every now and then. Because Senator
Proxmire thought Bradley would like - you know, here's a guy who's good academically, he
plays for Marquette. So that was very, very nice. He took a personal interest in his interns.
Um-hmm. (affirmatively) It sounds like it. So when you left the office, you did keep in contact?
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 36 Proxmire Oral History Project Yes, yeah. So anytime I was out in Washington, or when he was back here, I'd continue to -
even after his election, I'd get together with him and drive him to various places. In 1988, he
came in and supported Matt Flynn's candidacy and I'd see him a lot there because he was good
friends with Matt. When I was treasurer of the State Party, I'd see him. By that time, though, he
had already decided to retire and Herb was going to be his successor.
Well let me ask you another question about the '82 election. Was it close?
No, no. You know, as I recall -1 can't remember the numbers, but it wasn't very close.
Do you remember any of the issues that were up in the campaign?
Not really. It was one of those elections that I don't think anybody thought McCallum had much
of a chance. Here's a guy who drew very, very well among Independents. In Wisconsin, it's a
little bit different today than it was maybe five or six years ago. But it was, you know, thirty-six
percent Dems [Democrats] and thirty-six percent Republicans, or maybe at that time it was a
little more heavily weighted towards Democrats. But Wisconsin Independents control who wins
Statewide races, and he was so popular among Independents, and popular among Dems. But, you
know, maybe half the Dems, and sort of begrudgingly supported by the other half who weren't
going to support McCallum.
So you then went back to Marquette and finished up your degree there?
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 37 Proxmire Oral History Project Um-hmm. (affirmatively) I worked in Europe for a summer. I obviously played basketball at
Marquette and finished up my degree; double majored in Political Science and Economics and
had a minor in English, and did well academically and athletically. And, again, worked in
Germany for a summer, that next summer, and then went on to law school afterward at Harvard.
Did you have political aspirations?
Yeah. Whenever I'd come back here, I'd work in campaigns. I worked in Tony Earl's campaign
in '86. In addition to interning, a summer clerkship here at Foley, I also was involved in helping
with the Earl campaign for Governor. And tried to help with, even at the time, Matt Flynn's
campaign in '86 for the US Senate. But, you know, more just on distributing pamphlets and
answering questions. You know, that kind of stuff. And then when I graduated, I came back and
got really involved in - asking people, "How should I be involved?" And I got involved with the
State Party and became the Treasurer of the State Democratic Party, and then just stayed very,
very active and involved in a lot of fundraising efforts with the Party. And then ran in '92 when that seat was vacated.
Let's end this hour here. And I have a few more questions for the next hour.
Okay. Okay, good.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 38 Proxmire Oral History Project HOUR 2
Hour 2/00:00 BP's Exercise Regimen, MM's Interest in Law/Politics, '92 Congressional Campaign, BP's Retirement/Alzheimer' s
This is hour number two of my interview with Marc Marotta on William Proxmire. Off tape we
were just talking a little bit about his jogging. So why don 'tyou start with that?
Well, you know, he would jog to work every day. It was about five miles from his house. You
know, [it was] part of his whole physical fitness regimen. But one time I was just getting off the
Metro, and I'm walking in when I see this guy shadowboxing. It was a shadow that was on one
of the -1 think it was one of the House office buildings, actually - and he had these sort of torn
shorts on and a kind of a raggedy T-shirt and he's out there shadowboxing. And there's people,
you know, it's not like he's alone. There's a lot of people walking by. And I sort of thought,
"God, this is odd. I wonder who this is?" And I sort of turned and got a better angle and it was
Senator Proxmire. He really didn't care. You know, he had his exercise regimen. One time, and this was that summer, he was jogging in and he got held up by a guy with a gun. And he actually told the guy - he was a quick thinker. The guy said, "Give me your money or else I'll shoot
you." And he said, "Go ahead and shoot me." He said, "I just got diagnosed with terminal
cancer." He said, "I'm done anyway in a month or two." So he said, "Go ahead. I don't care."
And the guy just sort was shocked by that and backed off. And I remember him. He was really
shaken up. But that was his line. He was a pretty quick thinker.
I'll have to remember that one.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 39 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah, right. I'll have to remember that one, too! (laughter) I don't know if I want to say, "Go
ahead," though, (laughter)
Right. So we talked a little bit about the campaign in 1982. And then you went back to school.
You finished school. You then got a big award or a scholarship and went onto law school? Is
that right?
Yeah. I had an NCAA [National Collegiate Athletic Association] post-graduate scholarship and then went onto law school at Harvard.
What drew you to the law?
Pardon?
What drew you into law?
It was the ability to secure a law degree and have a background that would enable me to do
different things. I just thought that that kind of background and knowledge base and ability to think analytically would allow me to go and just practice law if I wanted to, be in politics if I
wanted to, or get into other sorts of ventures if I wanted to. And so left there, came back to Foley
[Foley and Lardner], started here in the fall of '87; again, got very involved in politics just in terms of helping people like Herb Kohl when he was running for Senator Proxmire's seat and,
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 40 Proxmire Oral History Project you know, John Norquist in '88 and Dave Schulz. And just got really, really involved in all these
campaigns, would raise money for them. And then in '92,1 ran for Congress - took a leave of
absence from the firm. I was pretty young, only four or five years out of law school, basically.
For most of the campaign, I was twenty-nine years old. Well, I was twenty-nine years old,
actually.
Did you use any of Proxmire's campaigning strategies?
I did. I went door-to-door and I'd shake hands at plants like Pabst and Miller. Proxmire always told me - the one thing he did say - he said, "If you go to any of those plants and you're going to
shake hands, make sure you go there on payday. People are in a much better mood when they get
paid. They'll be much more receptive to that than if you're in the middle of the week and they
haven't been paid." So I used to always remember to do that. Yeah, I tried to do that. I wasn't,
frankly, to be honest, I wasn't as enthusiastic about that as he was. I enjoyed that for the first
month or two of the campaign. And after that, it became kind of a burden. And, you know, I think for him, I can't imagine it was a burden because he did it for so long. But he came in and
did a couple of television ads for me.
Oh, he did?
Yeah, yeah, which were terrific ads. I should have run those constantly. Instead we had to do
some other things as well. But he was very, very gracious in doing that.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 41 Proxmire Oral History Project This was after he had retired?
After he'd retired, but still a legend, politically.
Well tell me a little bit about the years between '82 and '89, when he retired. Did you talk issues
with him or follow his career?
Yeah, um-hmm. (affirmatively)
Do you remember any highlights of those years? The Savings andLoan crisis, I think, happened
in the late '80s.
Right.
There was Iran Contra. There was a lot of different things going on. I'm wondering if you
remember any.
You know, I remember talking with him about different - like when Judge Bork was nominated.
I talked with him quite a bit during that time. When I'd be out in Washington, I'd go and see
him. I wouldn't characterize myself as a close advisor to him by any stretch, but I'd go out there
and we'd talk issues. And I remember with Bork, again, he was sort of like - you know, his
philosophy was, "If the guy is competent and if he's honest, then it really shouldn't matter what
his philosophy is, because the President gets to choose who they appoint. All I care about is is he
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 42 Proxmire Oral History Project smart and competent and is he honest. And if he's not, then I can't [support him]." Again, that
sort of angered some of his colleagues, because they didn't like this guy's ideology. But that was
his philosophy. I remember when Alberto Gonzalez was appointed Attorney General and there
was some question on that. I was there, actually, for some reason at that time. And I said, "He's
not competent, you know, he isn't. If you read these memos that he drafted, he's just not
competent, and I'm not so sure how honest he is." And I said, "Those were the two things that
really [matter]," because I agree with him [Proxmire] on that. But I can't really think of any
other, offhand, any other . . . this just, again, was so long ago.
So when did you first hear of his decision to retire? Was it something you knew was coming or
did it surprise you?
No. It didn't surprise me. He told me - he didn't like it when he saw some of these guys in the
Senate, some of his colleagues who were falling asleep in the Chambers. You know, it was sort
of embarrassing, some of them, you know, like a John Stennis. And he said he never wanted to
get to that point. So it did not surprise me that he left when he had all his faculties. He was in
good health, sharp.
And when did you find out that he had Alzheimer's?
I kept in touch. When I'd go out there, I'd always talk to Arlene [Branca]. And Arlene, while she
was with Senator Kohl, she was still sort of doing things for Senator Proxmire when he was
working on the Library of Congress. And I remember Arlene said to me, "He's starting to slip."
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 43 Proxmire Oral History Project Did you notice that already in the '92 campaign?
No, no. Well, he supported me, so he had to be of sound mind, (laughter) No, I mean, I didn't
recognize it. But sometimes with that, you have to be around somebody for a fairly long period
of time before you can see early stages of it. And I don't know when it first came on.
When was the last time you saw him?
I would say it was probably in ... I want to say 2000. It was before he entered the hospital,
certainly, and it was before his Alzheimer's became severe. You could still see there was some
you know, something wasn't right, but he was certainly able to carry on a conversation. You
know, it might have been the late '90s, probably, when I saw him. I can't recall now.
Hour 2/10:00 Political Toll on Family Life, BP's Legacy, Campaign Finance Reform
You ran for office in '92. Did you run again?
Didn't run again, no.
Didn't run again.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript AA Proxmire Oral History Project Even though a lot of people said, "You should run for State Assembly." He was in the State
Assembly; only for two years, I think, though. And I remember talking with him and he said,
"No, don't do that. Go right for the Congress." And I'd say, "But I'm young. People say I'm a
little too young." I was twenty-eight for most of the campaign and then I turned twenty-nine. I
said, "You know, I'm twenty-eight, twenty-nine years old." And he said, "Twenty-eight, twenty-
nine years old! That's the best time to run. You have the most energy. You can get things done.
Don't let anybody talk to you about how you have to have all this experience. Garbage!" He
said, "Come out here and do the right thing." So he encouraged me. But I ran. I'm glad I did it. I
finished. It was a six way primary for the Democratic [primary], and I finished. Tom Barrett beat
everybody pretty easily and then three of us were kind of grouped together. But I finished fourth
in that. I wasn't discouraged. I just thought it was a good time to do it. Some people, it's like a
bug, you know? They can't ever get it out of their system. They have to constantly run for office.
I didn't have that. Maybe that's why I didn't win, you know, as well. I didn't have the kind of
incredible desire to - but yeah, he was always very encouraging.
Do you think it's in your future at all?
Ah, (sighs) not in the foreseeable future right now. I really enjoy what I'm doing. And we have
four kids and politics has to be conducive to your own personal situation. Politics today is really
pretty venomous. That in and of itself doesn't bother me much, but it's hard on the family. And I
don't know that I'll do that.
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 45 Proxmire Oral History Project Do you know much about how it was for his family? And how his extreme dedication to public
service affected his personal life at all?
I don't know. I honestly don't know. His situation with Cici [Elsie] Rockefeller obviously - he
didn't really talk much about that. I know she committed suicide. But when you look at a lot of
success - this is true for a lot of people that are successful at what they do - it does take a toll on their family. I just finished David Maraniss's book about Lombardi. I hadn't read that. It's been
around for six or seven years. Have you read that?
Um-mmm. (negatively)
That's a great biography. You have to sort of be into sports to read it, but it is really very, very
well done. His career certainly took a toll on his family.
Well as we wrap up the interview, I'm curious to hear what you think Proxmire's legacy is or
should be. Do you think he's had a lasting effect on Wisconsin politics?
Oh, yeah; certainly. Wisconsin is a state where, again, I think there's a fair amount of
independent voters. They aren't necessarily wedded to one party or the other. And I think that
Proxmire was not only a product of that, but also his career was one of the reasons for that. I think people saw this guy as somebody who, while he was a Democrat, didn't really adhere to the Democratic Party line all the time. He was an independent thinker. And that, you know,
somebody like a Russ Feingold is probably the most - since Proxmire - is probably the one
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 46 Proxmire Oral History Project who's most in that tradition. I think Feingold will break from Party lines from time to time. My
guess is that you'll see more and more - and it's easier to do in the Senate than it is to do, like, in
a Governor's position. You know, as Governor, you have to make decisions about the operations
of the State. As a Senator, you can go out there and you can grandstand a little bit. I don't say that in a derogatory fashion. Sometimes it's important to do that in a symbolic fashion. So I think that he has left a legacy of quality and dedication to public service. I mean, just think about how
many roll call votes he attended in a row. That's just unheard of. And I don't know that that will
ever be -in today's world, that just won't [be matched]. So he was just so dedicated and so
passionate about the job. So he sets the standard. He set the standard fairly high. You know, this
whole term of maverick has kind of gotten bastardized a little bit as a result of the last campaign,
and made fun of. But that aside, when you say that word, the connotation about him was very,
very positive. I don't care, Republican or Democrat, if you had more people that had his
intellectual ability, his dedication to the job, his ethical standards, uncompromising ethical
standards, we would have a much better federal government certainly than we do now. There's
no question that that's true. And I would say the same thing about him if he was Republican. So that's, I think, his legacy, is one of quality, dedication, high ethical standards. This whole thing
about not raising any money is pretty extraordinary, too. It would be interesting to see what he
would have thought about how politics is waged today - that we spent, what, a billion dollars in this presidential campaign, all the independent groups that weigh in -1 think he'd be beside
himself that this is the way we elected our public servants.
Do you remember him talking about campaign finance as something that he wanted to reform?
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 47 Proxmire Oral History Project I don't remember the specifics. Yeah, yeah.
77e would have been behind that all the way?
He would have been behind it all the way, yeah. The only way that you can really get at it in a
more meaningful way is probably, you know, you have to amend the Constitution. This damn
First Amendment sometimes gets in the way of things, doesn't it? (laughter) This whole thing, it
drives people out of politics, the good people that don't want to have to deal with that. And then this administration [George W. Bush] took it to a whole new level with, you know; they start
prosecuting people for political purposes. It was one thing to sort of trash them in the media, but
it's another thing - the venomous nature of politics today - he was involved in some tough
campaigns, obviously.
Do you think he could have survived in today's political climate?
Maybe in Wisconsin. I don't know. I really don't know the answer to that. If I'd say yes, I'd be
lying. If you don't want to get out and raise a lot of money today, it's hard to win. It really is. I
blame that on the people, though. I blame that on the population that doesn't take enough time to
actually sit and read and learn about candidates and are so influenced by the spin game, and
don't demand more. You know, they should demand better. He was somebody who -the roll call
votes, the Genocide Convention - the dedication that he had to issues I think will be something
all Wisconsinites have, all Wisconsin politicians sort of have to live up to that standard.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 48 Proxmire Oral History Project And he didn't seem very taken with the glamour of it all.
Right.
If he was jogging to work in his ripped up shorts.
Yeah. None of that stuff moved him.
And some of it also seems like he resisted a lot of the socializing.
Hour 2/20:00 BP's Devotion to Public Service/Influence on Others
Yeah.
Never going out for drinks.
I never really saw him drink. I don't know if he drank. I don't think he did. But he loved it [the job], you know. He loved it. Again, he liked the arts, I think. He liked the Chicago Cubs. He was
from Lake Forest. He had a great passion for the Cubs. And he liked sports. He talked sports a
lot. And I think he'd watch it. I go play golf because it's fun and it's a great hobby. His thing was
working. You know, that's what he does.
77e didn't take many vacations while you were there?
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 49 Proxmire Oral History Project He didn't, no. I don't think he took many vacations, period. Ellen would be able to obviously talk more to that. You know, every weekend back here, too, basically every weekend.
Back to Wisconsin. Well, is there anything else as we wrap up that you 'd like to say as you
remember him today? Or what you hope people remember about him when they study his life? I
think you 've done a fine job of summarizing his legacy. And he had an influence on you?
Certainly; very, very positive influence, yeah, yeah.
You 've become just as hard a worker and a public servant.
(laughter) One of the reasons I took the job - you know, when you're in the private sector and
you're making - we do pretty well here. And it's hard when you have four kids and you're
making a certain amount of money to then go and take a lot less money, subject yourself to a lot
of public scrutiny. You know, walk into some huge deficits and things like that. And people say,
"What are you possibly doing?" In thinking about doing that, I thought about Proxmire and his
devotion to public service. And, you know, when he left, he could look back on his career and
realize that he did some pretty good things, and voted and supported some pretty good things that
really helped to advance the country in many, many positive ways. And so that, I think, has
inspired a lot of people to be involved in public service, one way or the other, as staff members,
or just as people who are private citizens who like to get involved in civic and charitable affairs, to people who are in Congress now. That's inspired people. And those people will then inspire
Marc Marotta interview Transcript 50 Proxmire Oral History Project other people. So his legacy of public service and the devotion to that, and the good that can come
out of it, as opposed to the cynicism, I think has had a really long lasting effect on the State and
probably throughout the country as well.
Well that's a very good validating statement for the mission of this project. So thank you for that.
Well good, good.
And thank you for letting me interview you.
Oh, thank you, Anita. Thank you. This is really fun.
Marc Marotta Interview Transcript 51 Proxmire Oral History Project