ATEOTT 49 Transcript EPISODE 49 [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] MA: It was the night before. I read the statistics and I knew what I was going to say. I was just, “Okay. There's been a few years. I think I have to Google this. I have to just see what's out there.” Yeah, I googled, and I did it really like, “Okay, so what would be the first thing that I see if I'm 10-years-old, or 12 and I'm just googling porn, clicking on the first link, watching the first video?” Yeah, I'm not going to be too graphic, but the two videos that I watched were graphic for sure. One of them being one girl and I think five or six guys just beating her up, really. That was the first video. I'm not saying that's every video, but that's what I saw then. I just, the day after, I went into this talk, just thinking that, “Okay, we got to talk about this.” Because that's always been my deal that if there's a difficult issue, we have to have a conversation about it, we cannot be silent. [PREVIEW] [00:01:04] LW: Hey, there. It's Light. We are back with another episode of At the End of the Tunnel, which is a podcast that shines a light on backstories and, particularly, on the backstories of people who've taken a leap of faith away from convention and in the direction of helping or inspiring people through their work, or through their non-profit or, in the case of my guest this week, through their art. Back when I was only dreaming about starting a podcast, I had this shortlist in my mind of the dozen or so guests that I really wanted to interview. My guest this week was near the top of that list. His name is Saul Williams. I first discovered Saul's work in 1998 after going by myself to see an independent film called Slam, which start this actor and poet named Saul Williams. His performance and the subject matter, which was about how easy it is for Black men to get caught up in the American prison industrial complex, it not only blew me away, but Slam went on to win Sundance and Con that year. Then I started spotting Saul around New York City, where I was living at the time. I'd see him on the subway. I’d run into him at a couple of restaurants. Anyway, I got to enjoy a lot of his live © 2021 At the End of the Tunnel "1 ATEOTT 49 Transcript spoken word performances that he was doing around town. His star was rising. I was just so inspired, because he's one of those people that, every time you see him, you learn something new, and it just leaves you feeling more and more inspired. Then later, Saul got into doing more films, and then he was on Broadway. Then he started writing and producing music. He's released about a half a dozen studio albums at this point. His production quality reminds me a lot of Kanye West's work, his best work, and that you can listen to the album's from beginning to end and they each tell a story that just gets you to think about – it gets you to think about society in a different way. Saul's body of work, as a spoken word artist and a musician and an actor, I think about him as our generation’s Harry Belafonte. Belafonte always said, “Look, I am not a singer who gets involved in activism from time to time.” He said, “I am an activist who sings from time to time.” That's what I've always felt about Saul's incredible artistic contributions to the world, ever since I saw the movie Slam. He is first and foremost an activist and his medium happens to be spoken word and music and writing and acting and so on. The themes that show up in his work are often about social justice and race and gender and capitalism. He's collaborated with some amazing people over the years as well, everyone from Nine Inch Nails, to NAS, to Allen Ginsburg, to Rick Rubin. Even though he's been interviewed and profiled countless times, what we focused on in our interview was his backstory. We went really deep into his upbringing as the son of a minister and an educator, both of whom were activists as well. We talked about the moment when he discovered his passion for spoken word, which happened almost by accident, and how he had been preparing for that moment without even realizing it, which I find to be the case with all of my guests about 99.9 percent of the time. We touched on his unlikely path to starring in that film that I loved, Slam, because he wasn't the director's first choice but he somehow made it happen. We talked about that and we talked about why he decided to get into music later, which was a leap of faith that surprised even him. As with all origin stories, Saul’s was indeed fascinating. As you know, I like to do extensive research, but there were some aspects of his story that surprised me. I was even more impressed with him and what he's done in the world. I think you're going to find this © 2021 At the End of the Tunnel "2 ATEOTT 49 Transcript conversation incredibly thought provoking and inspiring as well. I'm blessed to be able to have these conversations and to be able to share them with you. I want to thank those of you who've already left your five-star rating or review, because that's how we can spread these stories even further and wider. You can do your part right now from your phone. It only takes 10 seconds. Just look at the title of the podcast in purple, which is if you're looking at it on the Apple Podcast app, click that, scroll down past the previous episodes, you'll see the five stars, just tap the fifth star. That's it. That's all you have to do. You've done your part to help expose other people to these stories that could inspire them to take their own leap of faith. It only takes you 10 seconds to make the world a better place. Thank you for that. Without further ado, let's get into my conversation with Mr. Saul Williams. [INTERVIEW] [00:06:30] LW: Mr. Saul Williams, it is my pleasure, it is my honor to sit down with you and talk a little bit about your life. I have known of you and cross paths with you for several years now. Most recently, in Los Angeles, probably, I don't know, seven years ago, or six years ago, or something like that. I think we saw each other on Laurel Canyon, or we saw each other in one of those canyons. Now, we get a chance to go a little deeper into our relationship, but also just into telling your story. You've told your story so many times, and I have seen a lot of your interviews in preparing for this conversation. I'm hoping to go into some stuff that maybe you haven't talked about as much in those interviews. Thank you very much for being here and being open to all of that. My first question that I like to ask my guests is, thinking back to childhood. I know you grew up in Newburgh, New York, about an hour outside of Manhattan. When you think back to young Saul, the youngest of three, and your favorite toy or activity as a child, what would you say that was and why? [00:07:42] SW: There was this Tonka truck. You’re laughing like you remember Tonka Trucks. © 2021 At the End of the Tunnel "3 ATEOTT 49 Transcript [00:07:56] LW: Yeah, of course. [00:07:59] SW: I had this yellow Tonka Truck with a tractor that my grandmother gave me. I didn't have a lot of toys like that. I had a lot of fun playing with that. I played with train tracks and race track. I never could say that I had a favorite toy, because I was more of an adventurer, and I was sometimes making toys and games in my head. That was my favorite thing to do. I grew up in a house that had 28 rooms, nine fireplaces. Yeah, it was a crazy house. It was built by the same guy who built Madison Square Garden in 1906 in Newburgh and my parents purchased it for $20,000 or something. It was always freezing cold in the winter. There were lots of places to hide all these crazy things under the stairs and crazy rooms in the basement. Then outside, there were pine trees. I would collect pine cones. I would use my – I don't know if you remember the round sleds that you would sometimes use to sleigh down the hill. I would paint those and make a shield out of those. Imagine the pine cones as grenades. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make a bow and arrow. I spent more time trying to figure out how to make slingshots.