Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

STANDING COMMITTEE

on

LAW AMENDMENTS

39-40 Elizabeth II

Chairperson Mr. Jack Penner Constituencyof Emerson

VOL. XLI No.6· 2:30p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 22,1992

ISSN 0713-9586 Printed by theOffice of the a- Printer, Provinceof Manitoba MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thi rty-Fifth Legislature

Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ALCOCK, Reg Osborne Liberal ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BARREn, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHEEMA, Guizar The Maples Liberal CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CONNERY, Edward PortageIa Prairie PC CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise Seine River PC DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Ciif Interlake NDP EVANS, LeonardS. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Liberal GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NDP HELWER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert PC MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek PC McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assinlboia PC MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold Rossmere PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St. Vital PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC STORIE, Jerry Ain Aon NDP SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. FortGarry PC WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP 149

LEGISLAnVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW AMENDMENTS

Monday, June 22,1992

TIME-2:30 p.m. It is our custom to hear briefs before the LOCATION-Winnipeg, Manitoba consideration of the bills. What is the will of the committee? Agreed. Soordered . CHAIRPERSON- Mr. Jack Penner(Emerson) To date, we have 19 presenters registered to ATTENDANCE -11 -QUORUM- 6 speak on the bill. I will read the names on the list: Members of the Committeepresent: Mr. George Druwe, Societe franco-manitobaine; Hon. Mr. Ernst, Hon. Mrs. Mitchelson Councillor Bill Clement, city councillor for Charleswood; Mr. Trevor Thomas, the City of Messrs. Chomiak, Edwards, Ms. Friesen, Winnipeg legal Department; Councillor Greg Messrs. Gaudry, Helwer, McAlpine, Neufeld, Selinger, city councillor for Tache; Mr. Donovan Penner, Rose Timmers,city councillorfor Westminster;Reverend *Substitution: Harry lehotsky, private citizen; Sylvia DiCosimo, Mr. Ducharme for Mr. Rose (1551) private citizen; Mr. Fred Curry, private citizen; Mrs. lorna Cramer, Residents Committee of Garden APPEARING: City; Mrs. Patricia Thompson, Armstrong's Point Gerald Ducharme, MLA for Riel Association Inc.; Mr. David Cramer, private citizen; WITNESSES: Mr. Dena Sonley, private citizen; Mr. Michael Sawka, private citizen; Mr. and Mrs. Robert Trevor Thomas, City of Winnipeg legal Peterson, private citizens; Mrs. Antonia Engen, Department private citizen; Morley and Bev Jacobs, private Donovan Timmers, Councillorfor Westminster citizens; Lori Janower, private citizen; Mr. Robin Ward, City of Winnipeg Weins, Old St. Boniface ResidentsAssociati on; Mr. Harry lehotsky, Private Citizen Max Saper, private citizen. That is the list of presenters. Sylvia DiCosimo, Private Citizen H there are any personswho wish to speak tothe Fred Curry, Private Citizen bill, who have not yet registered,would you please Patricia Thompson, Armstrong's Point contactthe Clerk of Committees to have your names Association Inc. added tothe list of presenters. I would also like to Morley Jacobs, Private Citizen ask any person requiring photocopies of their briefs to be made to contactth Bev Jacobs, Private Citizen e Clerk ofComm ittees. Guy Jourdain, Societe franco-manitobalne Did the committee wish to indicate, for the audience, how long it is willing to sit thisafternoon MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: and If it will take a break for supper? What areyour Bil17, The City of WinnipegAmendment Act (3) wishes? Do you want to break at six o'clock? Six

*** o'clock. Agreed? So ordered. For the presenters to Bill 78 who are not present this afternoon, did the Mr. Chairperson: Could we come to order, committee wish to call their names again at seven please? Order, please. Will the Committee onlaw o'clock? Is that your wish? Okay. let us call them Amendmentsplease cometo order? again at seven o'clock. Did the committee wish to This afternoon, the committee will be considering introducetime limits on the presentations? No time one bill, Bill 78, The City of Winnipeg Amendment limits? We might be here a longtime. Act (3). This committee will also be meeting again I would then like to call upon Mr. George Druwe, this evening at seven o'clock to considerthis bill and Societe franco-manitobaine to come forward, to consider Bill 98. please. He is not here? 150 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

I would then like to call Councillor Bill Clement, Now, if the amendmentsgo throughas proposed city councillor for Charleswood. Is Mr. Clement and we have anothersituation like that, the mostwe here? Not here. could do would be to grant a use variance for five Mr. Trevor Thomas, the City of Winnipeg Legal years. To make it permanent, the alternatives Department. Mr. Trevor Thomas, would you come would have to be to rezonethat property to R2in the forward, please. midst of R1 , which the neighbours would be frightened of and thecity would not want to do, or to Mr. Trevor Thomas (City of Winnipeg Legal amend the text of the zoning by-law and introduce Department): I have here 15 copies of- R2 as a conditional use, which would then be a Mr. Chairperson: You may commence your potential conditional use through the whole of the presentation. R1 area. I think the neighbours would be equally afraid of that, and the city really would not want to (1 0) .. 44 do it. Mr.Thomas: Mr. Chairpersonand members of the The proposal I haveunder alternative No. 2 is that committee, I am dealingonly with onerestricted item in that kind of asitua tion, the owner could make an in Bill 78, that is the topic of use variances. As you application for a variance in the usual way. It would know, the provincial government, during 1991, go to the new board of adjustment, and if they imposed a restriction that a zoning variance could granted it and there was no appeal, thenthat would not allowa change of use. be the end of the matter. There is a proposal in this bill, a new section, 608(4), which would allow use variances for up to However, if you change the scenario somewhat five years. Our only concern on that pointwas that and there is neighbourhood objection and they the five years be counted from-well, I had appeal it, that appeal would go to the appeal suggestedJuly 1 of this year, ratherthan at the first committee which, under Bill 78, would be the time somebodygot a variance. I have been advised Planning Committee, as presently the community that the Departmentof Urban Affairs has consulted committee. That committee would have to make a with the minister, and they are proposing to decision. introduce essentially that amendment with a date Now, if they granted it, that order would not be effective from July 26 last. That would accomplish effective unlessand until the order was referred to the city's purposes, so I do not thinkthere is any City Council with a report and the City Council need for me to dwell at any lengthon that. considered the matter and a full vote of council Onpage 3 ofmy brief, I set out analternative No. would make the decision in the same manner as if 1 to that amendment,which was what the city asked it was a zoning. The council could amend the for last year and was rejected, namely a return to conditionsor impose differentconditio ns. the full power to grant use variances with no Now that,to the city's way of thinking, has all of restrictions. I do notthink I will elaborate upon that. the advantages of a rezoning in the sense that the That has been considered in the past. I was decision ismade by thefull council. It does nothave instructed to put it forward again. I have done so. the disadvantagesthat you are introducing spota of I will deal with the reasons for that under the R2zoning in the middle of the neighbourhood youor heading of alternative No. 2, andwithout read ing it, are introducing a permissive conditional-use I would just give you perhaps two examples. This provision, subject to approval, to have these R2 first example is an example of a large, old house in uses throughout the whole residential the Riverview area off Osborne, which was very neighbourhood. expensive to heat, and nobody couldbe foundwho Anotherexample could be: As you know, under wanted to buy it as a single-family dwelling. I the city's zoning by-laws, ifa use is not mentioned, believe it was owned by an estate, and itwas being it is not permitted. It is prohibited. We have rentedout and deteriorating. situations where a businessman comes up with an The ownerproposed totum it into a duplex. The innovative idea fora use in a commercial district. It neighbours surroundingit agreed. Theyfelt thatthis is notmentioned in theby-law. Up untillast year, he was a better choice than having it continue to would have gone for a use variance,and if it wasnot deteriorate. contentious, he would have it. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151

Under the proposed amendment, we could say, Thatreally sums up my presentation. If there are well, we can give you a use variance but only for five any questions, I will be happy to answer them. years. If he cannot invest his money on five years, Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Thomas. Are he would have to apply for a full rezoning if he has there any questions? If not, thank you again for the time and inclination. I do not know what we your presentation. would rezone it to. More likely, he would have to I would like to now call on Councillor Greg apply to have the text of the by-law amended to put Selinger, city councillor for Tache. He is not here. it in as a permanent use. Thatmight be reasonable, I would call Donovan Timmers, city councillor for although it would be time consuming. Westminster. Mr. Timmers, would you come If it is something that the city thinksis appropriate forward, please. in a particular locationbut not throughout the whole Mr. Donovan Timmers {Councillor for district, then, we submit, it would be far more Westminster Ward , City of Winnipeg): Thank appropriate to take a variance application as I have you very much. described, but it would be subject to council ratification. Mr. Chairperson: Have you a presentation to distribute? So again, to repeat myself, the council would have Mr. Timmers: It is verbal, and unfortunately, I do the final say as they would in the case of a zoning; not have a written one. the residents would have a full opportunity to present their case. In fact, they do it twice, both at Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Would you the initial application to the Board of Adjustment and proceed. again on the appeal. Mr.Timmers: Okay, I am here to address Bill78, and in particular, I am referring to page 13 of the bill. To sum up, we see that that mechanism would There is a Section 574(2) atthe bottomof the page, have all of the advantages of a rezoning without the titled Meaning of "committee of council,w and it disadvantage of a true spot rezoning in the midstof carries on to page 14, where it says Meaning of a neighbourhood or introducing a conditional use •committeeof councilw in Section641 (4), 643(2)and throughout the whole neighbourhood, which invites (3). everybody to assume that it is appropriate anywhere, subject to the locational factors of a Essentially, those are the two portions of the bill that I would like to address. Just to quickly conditional use. summarize: My concern is the loss of new-found I should also point out that a zoning variance is appeal powers that community committees have really a bending ofthe zoning rule. If you can bend attained under Bill 35. I will just back up a little bit it without breaking it and without causing substantial at this point and try and give some background. adverse effects, you can grant it, but if you do grant Recently the provincial government brought a variance such as the one big duplex in Riverview forward Bill 35, which amended The City of or this businessman's innovative idea for a Winnipeg Act, which has been one of many recent particular location, and you do it as a variance, the City of Winnipeg Act amendments. I stress that, nextperson who comesfor it is met with the fact that because I think that this process of amending The we have bent the rule a little bit. City of Winnipeg Act, in recent times, has been a Now, maybe we can bend it for the second one rather ill-planned and hasty exercise. The and maybe not, but you get to a point where you can amendments are coming pretty thick and fast, and I argue that we granted two or three, we have bent have not seen so many amendments to a piece of the rule as far as we can go, no more-thatis a good legislation or The City of Winnipeg Act in such a restraint on having too many things going into a shortperiod of time. neighborhood of that type-whereas if it is a * (1450) conditionaluse, and you only did it in order to let one It is cause for concern that there is not an overall in, now you have tended to open the door to directed approach done in closer working repeated applications, and it is much harder to say, relationship with the City of Winnipeg. Anyway, Bill well, we gave it to the previous two, but you cannot 35 gave City Council the power to establish the have it. details of the process for land-use regulation. Bill 152 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

35 stated thatCity Council may, by by-law, finetune Canadian political process, somethingthat I am not theprocess . very comfortable with. I think we are all aware that our political structures are based in British tradition, It also established the Board of Adjustment, the in parliamentary tradition. I think that it would be citizen panel to deal with variances and conditional dangerous to move away from that. I thinkwe have uses applied for at the city level. Anyway, City establishedprocesses, andwe shouldfollow those. Council decided-and itwas quite a strong majority vote of 17 to 10-in its wisdom , that the community There are a couple of otherissues that I would like committees should be given the appeal powers on to address. There are some red herring arguments various conditional uses and variances, because that comeup when people advocatethat commun ity Bill35 saidthat any committee of council wouldhave committee have the final say on issues of local the authority to deal with appeals if so granted by concern. First of all, I want to emphasize those council. terms "local concern." Variances and conditional uses are local matters. Theycan be decided at the Now, council, on January 22, considered quite a, local community level. There is nothing wrong with well, reasonably lengthy report, at which time an that. I will elaborate on some of the positive points amendment to this report from the Planning of that. Committee of council was made. That amendment was to make the community committeesthe appeal I think there are two reasons why it is good to have bodyon variancesand conditional uses. that appeal power on local issues, and I will just backtrack for a moment again. These local issues I guess my concern at this point really is merely set the tone and the character of a that-thereare a number of concernsin regard to the neighbourhood and a local community. They are provincial governmentoverru ling and overriding the not wide, sweeping issues that have significant will of council. Essentially, that is what has impact on the city at large on a short-term basis. I happened. The provincial government has given guessthe advantagesto having that appeal power City Council authority. City Council exercised that at the community committee level is that having authority, and no sooner was that done, than the established the Board of Adjustment, you do provincial government has intervened and is streamline thesystem a little bit for councillors. I am attempting to remove thatauthority from the city. So grateful for that. that is one aspect. The province overrides the will of council after giving council a certain amount of However, without the appeal power, I think we authority. lose two things: consistency and accountability. There are two aspectsto the issue of consistency in The second concern for me is the impact on local decision making. One is in relation to civic by-laws, government, particularly in Winnipeg. There is this and the other is in relation to decision making. larger issue, the restructuring of council, which, in my view, decreases political representation and Now, you are probably all aware that the various distances people from their local political districts ofthe city have their own zoning by-laws. I representation. I suggest that this effect is only am a representative from City Centre-Fort Rouge increased by this intervention. Well, firstof all, the Community Committee, and we have By-law 16502. change in politicalprocess, particularlydealing with It is a document that is about "that" thick. Nobody land-use regulation, where the Board of Adjustment ever getsto read the whole thing, becausethere is was established, because that further distanced just not enough time in the day to do so. But each community residents from their local political community area has its own zoning by-law. representation. Then when the provincial When you go through those zoning by-laws, you government intervenesand takes away a powerthat are going to find differences from one community is granted to community committee, it is only committee to the next, and some significant distancing people from their representation even differences. So, to argue that the appeal power further. should be at a standing committee of council, such I suggest thatthat flies in the face of tradition in as the Planning Committee, because you will not Winnipeg and political culture in Winnipeg. I would have consistency, is not a very substantive say that it is rather unprecedented. I guess I would argument, because there is not a lot of consistency suggest too that it is an Americanization of in the zoning by-laws on a district-to-district basis. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 153

Where you will get consistency, though, is within are overrepresented on Planning Committee. That the community committee decision-making, is inconsistent in itself. because you will have councillorssitting there for a I guess one of the other factors here, and I am three-year term dealing with matters of local going to refer specifically-it is more of a licensing concern and gainingfamil iarity with them andbeing issue, but it is an issue that we are trying to have in front of their local community on a consistent regulated by conditional use-and you probably basis, and as a result having to be consistent in their caught a bit of the controversy about pawn shops decision making. and massage parlorsand so on. Well, I just want to I guess, inadvertently, I have already moved over point out toyou thatmassage parlors and datingand to the second aspect of consistency. So one is in escortservices are restricted tothe City Centre-Fort the by-laws, there is no consistency, so you cannot Rouge community area, and ask me if I am going to say on a city level there will be consistent decision get the support of 24 councillors in the City of making if a central committee makes the appeal Winnipeg to move massage parlors out to, well, let decisions. us say, East Kildonan-Transcona and out to somebodyelse's partof the city. The other one is the political decision making. When you have councillors dealing with these I think the answer is clearly no, and, fine, people appeals at the local community level on a regular in the City Centre-Fort Rouge Community basis in front of theircomm unity, establishing a track Committee can deal with politicalreality. So we are record, you will get consistency in your decision not goingto ask for something thatwe know we are making, and the reason you will get that consistency not going to get, but to remedy that situation, what is a factor known as accountability. When we are saying is, at least give us the appeal power politicians stand up in front of their constituentsand at the localcommunity level to decide on thelocation make decisions on an ongoing basis and establish of these things so that we do not have them that record, people will get back to their elected overconcentrated in inappropriate areas, next to representatives if they do not like what is going on low-density residential neighbourhoods, next to and if they see some glaring flaws in it. I thinkwhen schools and communitycentres and so forth. you refer this to some other place, you will not get .. (1500) that consistency. What we are in the processof doing,I should add, The other problem is thatthe stand ing committee, is we are changing the licensing provisions. I think if it was the Planning Committee to be the appeal those of you who have been councillors have some body,that membership changes everyyear. As you knowledge of this, but we are trying to change the know we reappoint members of standing licensing provision over to a conditional use committees on an annual basis, and you get that regulation process so that, again, community turnover every year, so you lose the continuityand committees would have the final sayon thelocation the knowledge oflocal communities in theprocess . of massage parlors, pawn shops, dating and escort As well, I think you all know that standing committee services and amusement parlors. So I thinkif you membership is a bit of a mixedbag . There is no real takeaway that authority from us now, I think, we end control over who is on thestand ing committee other up moving back to square one, and we will see than the majority of council that decides. certain parts of the city overrun with an Now, what can ultimately happen, as in the case overconcentration of less than desirable types of of standing committee right now-the planning businesses. All that backfires on the dollars that committee-is that you can have duplication of you put into community revitalization in the older representation. We have two members of the St. parts ofthe city. Boniface-St. Vital Community Committee on the Now, accountability. I think this is an important Planning Committee and we have two members factor. When you have your local councillorsfaced from Assiniboine Park-Fort Garry Community with their community for a period of three years, Committee and then one from each of two other establishing a track record on decisions of local community committees. So there are community concern, you are going to generate accountability. committees that are not represented on Planning You as a constituent will get to know what your Committee. There arecommunity committeesthat councillor does. You will read it in the weekly Free 154 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Press. You will leam about it when you show up at with the city process know exactly what I am community committee meetings and so on, but referring to. eventually, the word will get out and accountability There are a couple of flaws I would like to point will prevail. out in this whole process, if you change to this new In the past, when we have had the Variance system, or one major flaw. I pointed out oneearlier, License and Conditional Use committees, that is and thatwas the imbalance of representation on the where all the "dirty deals" were done around City standing committee. I guess one of the difficulties Hall, where you could show up as a local councillor, that I have with this wholething is theimp act on the and you could whisper to your colleagues on role of councillors. You know that we are going to community committee-you vote for this, I cannot full-time council now and a reduced council. vote against it because I have gotsome opposition Well, I would suggest that if you exclude from my community, but you swish it through community councillors from these decisions, they because I really do not care, or I am really on the are going to end up being lobbied full time and they side ofthe applicant. Then thedecision goes off to will become full-time lobbyists at the Planning appeal, and then you can get on the phone and Committeewhich will be handling the appeals, and throughthe backdoor, start the lobbying. thephones will be ringing day in andday out. You I think anybodywho is a city councillor or has been will be badgered leftand right, pushedto and fro on a city councillor knows exactly what I am talking things like garage eaves troughs that are three about. Even though that kind of lobbying and inches too close to a property line, or a back yard intervention in process is not legitimate, and it is fence that might be four or fiVe inches taller thanthe by-law requires, or it may be asignificant issue such clearly stated in The City of Winnipeg Act that you as temporary use variances. cannot do it, it is done all the time becausethere are some issuesthat are ofsignificance to a community What I like about the previous system is thatwhen where people feel like theyhave to break therules an application is filed, in theory, councillors are to get the community message heard, or they feel supposed to be quasi-judicial and remain at theyhave to breakthe rules toperpetuate a special arm's-length from thefracas and controversy in the or vested interest. Anyway, rather than referring community. I will tell you, I know from my own things off to some distant, arm's-length appeal experience, and I think those of you who have been committee,have itdealt with locally. councillors, I think you can appreciate not havingto be dragged into neighbourhoodfeuds and disputes If I was a councillor deciding on an issue that every threeweeks over a number of minor issues in affected MinisterMitchelson's area, I would not feel thecommunity. quite as accountable for the decision that I was making. It is not my community. How are the You are freeto standback and deflectall that, yet voters outthere going to hold me accountable in the you are still appearing before the community with next election? After all, it is the election that is the your rationale in making your final decision, but you enfranchising aspectof politicsin this country. do not have to get dragged into small neighbourhood feuds on an ongoing basis. If the So if I donot have to be accountable to anybody Planning Committee becomes the appeal body,and directlyfor my decision, my decision might not be in you have to go down there for virtually every the best interest of thecommunity. That is one thing variance and conditionaluse that is being appealed, to consider. If it is my community and they are you will spend all your time down at City Hall facing me over a long period oftime, you will get that lobbying the members of the planning committee, accountability. being embroiled in neighbourhood conflict. I do not The other thing with the turnover in the think that is an appropriate role for a councillor. membership of committees, you are not going to Give us back theappeal powers that we have. We can remain arm's length, and we can make the generate as much accountability either because I decisions, yet be held a lot more accountable than am here this year; I am gone next year. So these we have been. thingswill nothave to come back and haunt me, and I will not have to live with them. I can brush them off I justwant to point out that it was on January 22 and I can disappear. I think those who are familiar that City Council considered the change in the June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 155

process as designated by Bill 35, and the at Planning Committee, not as much to my recommendation from the Planning Committeewas satisfaction, but there was some movement. In the to make the Executive Policy Committeethe appeal past, four councillors on that committee voted body. Now, I found that a littlebit amusing because against community committee having the appeal I find it unusual that an executive committee should power, and they did so on thefloor of council. One be making decisions over whether an eaves trough of those councillors changed his vote today, so it is three inches too close to a property line. I think was a three-three vote at the Planning Committee, there is more appropriate use of councillors' time so we are seeing a little bit ofmovement. than that, and particularly EPC's time. * (1 51 0) Executive Policy Committee, I think, in its wisdom, You have to spend some timeeducating people and perhaps out of revenge, I do not know, and informing them as to whatthey have to lose or recommended that the Planning Committeeshou ld gain, and eventually some people come around be the appeal body. At that point, the report came when theyare presented with information. We have to the floor of council and an amendment was seen a little bit of change, but I think what you have tabled, and that amendment was essentially to to keep in mind is that the overwhelming majority of make community committee the appealbody. That City Council decided that community committees amendment carried by a vote of 17 to 1 0, and that should have the appeal powers, and keep in mind was a recorded vote. All that information can be too that we are dealingwith matters of local concern. obtained from the city clerk. Perhaps in the city centre-FortRouge community, In the meantime, as you are aware, we have been these issues are a little more criticalfor us because dealing with this massage parlour, pawn shop issue we are dealing with some aspectsof the city that are that plagues our community, and I have beenbefore not terribly desirable for us and that have a the Planning Committee and the Finance significantly negative impact on neighbourhoods Committeeon this issue in general and trying to, as and the community at large when these particular I said, change the licensing provisions over to operationsare overconcentrated in an area. conditional-use provisions. I will conclude my presentation at this point and We are partwaythrough the process, but you are leave myself open to questions. running much quicker than we are, and I think you Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. are running too quick for City Council to be able to Timmers. deal with these issues properly. I should point out Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): that at the last meeting ofthe standing committee of Councillor Timmers,you indicatedat the opening of financeand administration,they concurred with our your address thatthe amendmentsthat were made request to make thesevarious licensedbusinesse s to The City of Winnipeg Act over the past threeyears conditional uses, and they also concurred with our were, in fact, Ill-planned and hasty, I believe were request of them that they support us in asking that your words. Let me- the province not amendThe City ofWinnipeg Act to remove our appeal powers. I have a copy of the Mr. nmmers: Well, I think you may have the report here with me, and I will just read the operative contextwrong. What I was referringto is thatwhen- sentence in it. Mr. Chairperson: Mr. Timmers, I would suggest that we will let the minister finish his question, and This is a recommendation from the Finance Committee to the Planning Committee,and it says: then I will let you respond after that. Furtherrecommending thatyour committee request Mr.nmmers: Pardon me. the provincial government to not change the Mr. Ernst: My recollection of it was that the legislation which empowers the community amendmentsover the past three years with regard committees to consider appeals from the decisions to The City of Winnipeg Act were coming thickand of the Boardof Adjustment fast, and that your words, I believe, were "'ll-planned Finance Committeehas had a chance to deal with and hasty: it. They concurred with our position thatyou leave I would like to point out to you, perhaps you are those appeal powers alone. It went to Planning not aware, in 1986, The City of Winnipeg Act was Committee today, and there was some movement reviewed by Mr. Cherniack and committee which 156 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

made a bunch of recommendations for changes to be to the politicalleve l and that the initial application The Cityof Winnipeg Act. be made tothe Board of Adjustment. When we came to governmentin 1988,the then At that time, therewas no discussionwith regard minister of the day addressed a number of those to appeals to community committeesat all, because issues andset forth a plan foramending The City of appeals had, before that time, since 1971 , always Winnipeg Act, not all at once but phased in over a been heard either by a standing committee or by period of three years. what is euphemistically referred to as the Variance That plan was communicated to the City of and Conditional Use Appeal Committee. Winnipeg by letter, together with a schedule of In fact, those who had appeared at that time, proposed amendments that were going to be dealt members of council, to my best recollection with over a periodof time; 1991 happened to be the supported removing from the agenda of the year in which Part20 ofthe act was to be reviewed, community committee a lot ofthese matters which which was done and a number of amendments could well be dealt with by a Board of Adjustment. made, so that there is a very clear plan that was In fact, at the time that this matterwas before the outlined to the City Council in 1989, and their committee, it certainly was the intent of the opportunity for input has been ongoing since that government that the appeal would continue to be time, and it has been consulted on a regular basis. heard at the central council level. By an

So I suggest your remarks, "ill-planned and hasty, • interpretation of the wording of the bill or the are incorrect. legislation, councildet ermined in itswisdom that the Mr.nmmera: Yes, my apologiestothe Chairofthe community committee should be the appeal committee. amI a little moreused to the less formal mechanism. I understandthat. procedures at City Hall. The intent of the government all the way through I think you make a reasonable point there. I is that the appeal would be heard at a central level guessthe context in which I meant thosecomments and for a number of reasons, and some of those was that various amendmentsshould come forward reasons you listed in your brief, although I did not more.as one large package, as opposed to being necessarily agree with your interpretation of them; dribbled through on an ongoingbasis, and I guess, nonetheless, consistency is one. particularlyin thecase ofBill 78, or, pardon me, Bill What you have is some areas-asyou say, there 35, the concept ofthe Board ofAdj ustmentwas, to are different by-laws, but some ofthose by-laws are my understanding, walked on literally at the identical so you cannot suggest for a moment that, eleventh hour, and it had taken even all the city for instance, By-law 1800, which deals with administrators by surprise. I can tell by your southwest Winnipeg is any different than By-law response what you are thinking, but that is the 1558 which deals withthe communi ty of St. James­ information that was provided to me by civic Assiniboia. administration. Perhaps I am wrong in that, but it They are identical, and notwithstanding the fact took everybodyquite by surprise. that they are identical and most by-laws are very I think this recent amendment in Bill 78 which similar in any event, the practice has been over a takes away the appeal powers of community long periodof timeto make appropriate adjustments committee is hasty because we have not had the to those by-laws. Quite frankly, the time has come timeto really lookat the full implications of what it is for the city to, I think, address a comprehensive you are doing. by-law for the whole city, but that is a matterfor a Mr. Ernst: Councillor Timmers, when Bill 35 was new councilto consider. brought forward to the Legislature, and before this Nonetheless, the concern was for consistency, or another committee of like type, the and as to what happens right now, there are recommendationwas that the application be heard community committeesthat will grant a variance for by community committee or a committee of council minor matters or some major matters. On the one and that the appeal be heard by the Board of hand in, for instance, EastKildonan and Transcona, Adjustment. During discussions here at the it will be permitted, but it will notbe permitted in Fort committee, it was determined thatthe appeal should Garry or St. Boniface, simply because of the June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 157

personal preferences of the members of the With those comments, I will relinquish the community committee. microphone. We also have a concern that it will lead to Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Timmers. The continual parochialism in planning, where one next presenter- district of the city wants or does not want a particular Mr. Timmers: Mr. Chairperson, is there type of activity and will make appropriate, albeit opportunity to respond? consistent, decisions to that end, whereas people Mr. Chairperson: Did you have a response, Mr. who live in the city of Winnipeg, in one common city, Timmers? are entitled to one common application of their general-use by-laws. Mr. Timmers: Yes. You made reference to parochialism in your response to me. I findthat the We also see, quite frankly, that if the term parochialism is one of these terms that is arrangements remain the same,where appeals are dredged out when it becomes politically convenient to be held before a community committee,there will to do so, and it is something that getstossed around be a great many more appeals thanthere otherwise as a denigrating kind of comment. might have been simply because either the applicant or thosewho are in opposition realize they I would suggest that when you have single­ can exercise a lot more political pressure on the member constituencies, such as ward elections are, members of the community committee than they that there is an expectation that your local elected can perhaps on a standing committee. political representative will carryforward the views of that constituencyand that ward, and ifyou donot, Now, that in some respects may be good and in well, you will pay the price in the nextelection. some respects may be bad. The fact ofthe matter is, though, you are going to get inconsistent results I think we see it all over the place, ifyou want to from that kind of application in my view. use the term parochialism. Politicians go and get grants and funding for the megaprojects of their When I was a member of council, I sat under both choice in their constituencies. Politicians do all systems. I sat as amember of the then Committee sorts of things. Sometimes it is parochial; on Environment which heardall the appeals from all sometimes it is not. I thinkthou gh the bestjudge of over the city, plus the additional zone, on variance that are the electors who put those politicians in and conditional-use applications. In fact, we met place, so I do not put a lot of stock in the one Monday on general planning business, and the parochialism article. nextMonday, we met on appeals only and spent the entire day on appeals. Then I have also sat under Now, ifthere is an issue that is contentious in the the appeal process under the variance and community, people get to know about it, and they conditional use appealcommi ttee. get to know about it fairly quickly and the word travels. H a councillor goes along with a strong Certainly, most preferably, the consistent representation from theward, well, I would suggest application of decision making based on the that maybe the councilloris listeningto the will of the standing committeewas the more preferable and I people, and if that councillor does not do so and thinkthe fairer of the two, and certainly, it was not listens only to the loudest and not necessarily the intended to be put back into the community most, then I suppose thatcouncillor will pay theprice committee situation. in the next election. I do not think we should * (1 520) underestimate political process and electoral Interestingly enough, nobody made the process as the safety valve, as the check and suggestion that the community committee should balance, in the system at large. not be removed from hearing the first application. In Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan}: Councillor fact, that was supported, I think, by members of Timmers, I want to thank you for that presentation, council coming here and suggesting that the Board largely because it reflects, I think, the kind of of Adjustment was the appropriate mechanism, to representation that I have received from my own take it out of the hands of the community committee local community with respectto concerns about Bill with never any intent expressed,that I heard, during 78. I have before me over 140 letters of response those hearings that it should be there for the appeal to the very issue that you noted today, all in process. opposition. I am hopeful that there will be several 158 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

presenters making that point this evening, but I the appeal process. That decision, by virtue of this wanted to clarify a few of the points that you made bill, seems to be overruled and, in fact, will be for themin ister. precluded-[interjection] Oh, yes, the minister Mostnotably, firstly, you will confirm thatduring illustrates for me, on the record,that this decision is the discussions-the minister refers back to the overruled. previous discussionsregarding Bill 35 and the initial As a city councillor, you made referenceto that in application to community committees, but it was terms of jurisdiction in your initial comments. Asa never the provincial intent to have the community citizenof Winnipeg, howdo you respond to the fact committee be the appeal board. Are you aware of that councilvoted-the ones who make thedecision, any intent, what the province's intent was, in who are elected by their electors-17 to 10, to have general? Are you aware of what the provincial the appeal be at the community committee level, intent was? and now you are being told by the senior level of Mr. Timmers: Well, I guess I have my government that you cannot do that, put that interpretation ofthat, andI lookat the intent based process in place? Can you indicate how you might on the province's overall direction in its respond to that? amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act, and I Mr. Timmers: Well, on a personal level, an would say the intent is clearly-it is an ideological individual level, it angers me to a considerable bias. degree, as I am sure it would anger members of this Do not take that as a criticism. Look, everybody provincial government if the federal government has an ideological bias and perspective, but within decided to intrude Upon provincial powers and that, what troubles me about it is that there is a undertake constitutional amendments and force reduction in political representation, and there is a them through. distancing of people from their elected For example, back in 1982, whenPierre Trudeau representatives, and thedemocr atic process in the suggestedthat hewould just unilaterally patriate the city of Winnipeg, which is fairly unique, is being Constitution and that he could do so and that he undermined. That causes me some concern. would do so, well, I think the provinces reacted in a I think the other overall effect is really one of certainway. I guess I react in a similar fashion, tha' cultural significancefor the city of Winnipeg. When here is a senior level of government arbitrarily Unicity was put together, it was meant to enforcingits will uponthe people of munia cipality. approximate 13 municipalities, and to try and retain With all due respect, I would have to say that the some of their character, some of their unique current provincial government has a large rural features. representation within it. I think that is excellent, but Itgave the St. Boniface-St. Vital area, which was I do not see an overwhelming majority of urban largely a French-speaking part of the city, its own MLAs forming the provincial government, and so I community boundaries and its own identity and wonderwhat is driving theagenda here. designation. The old city of Winnipeg retained its So I guess I look at it and I say thatthere is a own community boundaries, more or less, and its minority of members of the legislature who are identity. It gave St. James and Assiniboia its actually forcing their agenda upon the city at large, community and identity. particularly when the public profile of these I feelthat all that is being eroded and eliminated. amendments has not been very high and So democratic process is being chipped away at. particularlywhen people in general have a hard time Perhaps a little more than just chipped away it, it is grasping the concept of the processes of land-use being gouged at here. So I am concernedwhen you regulation and the applying of variances and the put this in the overall context of what has been appeal process andwhat ishappening under Bill 78. happening to The City of Winnipeg Act and the You have to spend a lot of time explaining that to structures. people and walking them through the process and Mr. Chomlak: Councillor Timmers, one of my giving them very careful explanation. Then and concernswith thisbill was in respect of the fact that only then do people begin to really understand what council made a decision, as I understand it, that is going on andwhat is being jeopardized. So, in a community committeesshould at least have input at roundabout way, thatis my answer to yourquestion . June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 159

Mr. Chomlak: Just in summationthen, on the basis are taking away-from this government side of all of your arguments, most of which, I can anyway-the appeal processof the constituent. indicate, I wholeheartedly agree with and oertainly The constituents, for the firsttime, will be able to have the impression people in my community agree be heard at the appeal by their councillor. Their with, in your opinion, the best means for the councillor, for the firsttime,will beallowed to appear government to respond would be to remove these at that appeal mechanism, which he could never do amendments and allow City Council's will to be before. He could not even sit on that committee to done-toput it in thoseterms-and allow the appeals express the views to the other members sitting to go tocom munitycomm ittee and let that process around. continue. Would that be a correct summation? So many times--whetheryou want to agree with it * (1 530) or not, and I know that the minister expressed Mr.Timmers: Yes, precisely. parochialism. It does happen, it is there, when you Hon. Gerald Ducharme(Minister of Governmen t are dealing at the community committee level only, Services): Arst of all, I do not agree with some of you are always dealing with the same councillors. the things Mr. Timmers has mentioned today, but I You can take a look at that before Unicity. Before am going to throw adifferent concept on therecord- Unicity, different cities used to compete for developmentin their areas. Mr.Chairperson : Mr. Ducharme, could I interrupt just to ask you to move your mike in a bit closer? Now, when someone comes forward with a development, if there is anyone who Is against it­ Mr. Ducharme: -than Mr. Chomiak, who maybe and you said about counting numbers, youcannot does not understand thecomple te system of sitting always count by the number of delegations that at community committee. I enjoyed community come forward-thatthere are sometimes whereyou committee, but I did not enjoy the final result of have to make a decision that appears to the whole dealing with variance and appeal. I do not know community, and I am talking about to an area. I whether he understands the game playing that can think the mechanism thatwe are using or the one go on both atthe variance and appeal thatwe had that we are stressing is the only way that you can and also at community committee. If he feels that probably sit down now and have an appeal l.y going back to community committee that he is mechanism. going to stop that game playing, he does not understand the concept. If you go back to the community committee, I do not think it fair either,whe n you are talking about the Arst of all, a lot of times when you are sitting at taxpayer, remember you have two taxpayers community committee and you are dealing with involved in an issue. You have tworesidents of your people on, say, a bi-weekly meeting, you have community committee sitting there. One wants a probably four or five individuals who get to know garage attached to his house, and the other one each other, get veryclose. Then all of suddenone not You do not alwayshave an outsidepoint says, well, I want thisrea lly through. Theywill vote does of view when you are dealing with the community againsthim at the community committee,where ifit committeedirect. has gone to another body and the member for that area can represent his constituents, becausehe still You talk about people getting involved in will be able to do that through the by-law that is in-fighting at a community committee. Yes, it established by the City of Winnipeg. Any members happens. What happens is they all get carried can come to that appeal committee. The councillor away; theyall startto fightamongst each other. The for that area can continue to represent his residents, ifthey knowthat when theycome forward constituent. to an independent body, an Independent body of I think it will give a very fair and, probably, a elected officials who have no axe to grind with the broader outlook,especially ifyou take a look at the councillorwho is sitting there, because they do not new construction of Citythe of Winnipegwith the 1 5 have to work with that councillor continually at a councillors. We have to remember that by community committee. arranging the concept of the 15 councillors that you They can make thedecision based on what they are lookingat whole new spectrum fordealing with feel is the best decision for that area. It does not these issues. No one at this table is saying thatwe refrain or restrain that councillor for that area to 160 LEGISLATIVE SSEMA BLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

make his best pitch and to work with his people to councillor at one meeting like we had to continually make the best pitch. But remember, he is sitting in the area of the city of Winnipeg we did. So I do there and he has got to make the best pitch for two not have to take any lesson from someone who sides, and I think the concept of the appeal act watched them dealing with these types of committee dealing with other than community representations. I committee, and am talking about the appeal You have to remember that what I am tryingto get process, is the way to go. at is when you are dealingwith individuals, you are Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Chairperson, I do not know if dealing with neighbours who are fighting, and they that question was directed at me or at Councillor do fight. You have to have another mechanism Timmers. other than dealing with community committee at appeals, because there has got to be someoneelse Chairperson: I Mr. Before we proceed, am going who will take a different side of it. They have to. to cautioncomm ittee membersthat we do not get There has gotto be another method of dealing with into debate with each other. The purpose of the that. There has to be another bodythere otherthan hearing is to ask questions of the presenter. Mr. community committee to hear the appeal, the same Timmers is the presenter. So with Mr. Chomiak's as we do in courtsand everythingelse. There is an I indulgence, am going to ask Mr. Timmers to appeal mechanism not heard by the originals and respond to Mr. Ducharme's presentation. not heard by the same individual councillorswho sit Mr. nmmers: I think by the time an appeal­ around there at community committee continually. assuming we retain thesystem that is in place now, That is what my argument to you is that I think that and keep in mind that it is in place now. Our therehas to be another concept, andthe conceptis, community committeeheard itsfirst appeals a week if I allowthat councillor to appear togetheror to make ago and it went quite well. Ifthis system remained the pointand bring back the informationdeal ing with I in place, can tell you that by the time an appeal is the locality of the area, he brings it forward to that filed and by thetime it would get to thecommun ity bodyof councillors and letthem be heard. committee appeal body, the issue would be quite 540 heated and quite politicized. After all, that is what * (1 ) we arl:l ispoliticians, and we are supposedto be able Mr. Timmers: With all due respect, I think what I to deal with theheated issues, andwe are supposed heard you say is that councillors should not get to live and function in a highly politicized climate. involved in neighbour disputes. That is essentially what you said because your rationale was limited I thinkto suggest thatyou can refer tough political and shallow, and you offered very littlesubstance to decisions off to an independent neutral apolitical body is really shirking political responsibility, and, what it was you were trying to say. believe me, especially at thecommunity level. You Now, I want to dispelthe myththat all we ever do will be heldaccountab le. The word will get around is mediate neighbour disputes at community within the community. You will establish a track committee level. We deal with a lotof issues that record. Democratic process will prevail over a significantly direct the tone of the community, the three-year period, and if somebody starts fooling localcharacter of thecomm unity, and in some parts around cuttingdeals at the local community appeal of the city we have large lots and in other parts of committee, theywill feel the heat and theywill feel thecity we have small lots. In some partsof thecity thepres sure. Theywill feel the accountability if they we have very high density commercial stepout of line and theydo not meet with community development, in others it is lower density. In some standards,they will know about it and they will not parts of the city we are dealing with encroachment do it again, otherwise they will not be back. of commercial activity into older established residential neighbourhoods. There is a real mix of Mr.Ducharme: To the presenter, and I meant Itfor issues out therethat go far beyond two neighbours both the presenter and Mr. Chomiak. However, no duking it out over a garage eavestrough three one is sayingtha t someone is ever tryingto relay or inches too close to theproperty line. give someone else the responsibilities of dealing with theactions. I can tell yoLHand I have watched Mr.Chairperson: I am going to ask the indulgence your community committee in action-you have of the committee, and I am going to interrupt the never hadto deal with 25 to 27 variances from one presenter. I am not going to, for very long, indulge June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 161

in whether we should or should not get involved in happens is the owners of that property are community or neighbourly disputes. I would like to attemptingto sell it off for parking lotsbecause it is ask committee members as well as presenters to not economicallyviable as a housing unit any more, direct their remarks to the concepts of the bill. H we they have made their money, they have paid for it, are finished with that, I would ask that we hear they have made their profit, and now they are going another presenter. If we are going to deal with the to cash in again by eroding a viable residential bill and proposalsfor change of bill or support ofthe community by allowing the housing to deteriorate bill, I will hear those. If not, I would ask that we and then bulldozing it down for parking lots. terminate this discussion. I can take you into many neighbourhoodson the Mr. Ducharme: To get back to the information that downtown periphery where thatproblem exists. So we have before us on the bill. I am just trying to if you have appeal power, you can startto prevent stress, and I guess I have not made myself clear some of that from happening. You startto send out enough because I have been accused of not having a message that this kind of activity will not be any substance, but I tryto use street sense instead. permitted and tolerated; that it works in the worst It has always been theway I have operated. interests of the city at large, because it depopulates However, ali i am trying to stress to the member the centre of the city and displaces population is that, in the bill under by-law-and I used the further and wider. It leaves even worse living example of neighbours because it is the simplest conditions for those people who have to remain one to use. A lot of times when I say neighbours, behind. So in the absence of the proclamation of you could have hundreds of people appear before Bill 13, give us some teeth, give us some clout in our a committee and they could be all divided. community. However, under the bill, underthe by-law-and I am Ms.Jean Friesen(Wolseley) : I want to thank you wondering if Mr. Timmers realizes that;'OU can for your presentation. A couple of, perhaps, have those people appearagain. Notonly that, but questionsand comments I had and some of it has under a by-law established by the City ofWinnipeg, beencovered by my colleague. I was interested by it is realized thateven someone who did not appear the comment you made about the number of at the original hearing can appear at the appeal. amendmentsto the City ofWinnipeg and the speed Does he realize that? at which they are coming and, particularly, having Mr. Timmers: Yes. been through a number ofbills myseH, I sympathize with any citizen in Winnipeg who in fact has to deal Mr. Ducharme: One more questionjust to follow it with this act. up. Other than only having their councillor there, what more can probably be added? You mentioned, particularly, thecomplexity of the language,the detail of the act,the piecemealnature Mr. Timmers: Well, I am going to give you a of it. It is certainly something that brought it home specific example. In my community particularlyone again to me, the great need for a plain language, a of the problems that we have faced, and I think you citizensversion in fact ofthe act. are probably all fairly aware of it, is thedemolition of housing for parking lots. That demolition of housing The second thing I wanted to comment on was has been occurring largely in lower density perhaps the differencesbetween the kinds of things residential neighbourhoods, older neighbourhoods that the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) has been going through a cycle of decline and now a cycle of saying and the way in which you are reflecting your revitalization. So we deal with these demolitions of particular community-sorry, the Minister of housing. Asyou know, we have a demolitionpermit GovernmentServices (Mr. Ducharme). and a process for that, but you are also requiredto The minister seems to be emphasizing the role of have a conditional use for the demolition of those individual councillors in adjudication, the role of houses. individual councillors in determining disputes In the absenceof strong provi ncial legislationlike between neighbours. It seems to me, what I am Biil 13 which will protect housing stock, particularly getting from you, is a sense of a community in the older residential neighbourhoods on the committee deciding collectively on the values and periphery of commercial areas, we see the housing the nature of each particular community. So I stock declining out of neglect. Ultimately what wanted to perhaps emphasize that for other 162 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

members of the committee as well, that in the we can go on to being in the full-time position of a context, and again I think you mentioned this in your reduced council that we are faced with. But I felt presentation, of thedramatic changes in the City of that the appeal process was fairly smooth, and I Winnipeg, when we are going from a councillor thinkit will work out just fine. representing 20,000people to one who is going to Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Timmers, for represent 40,000 or 60,000people, where we have your presentation. changed boundaries and in fact, altered old communities, thatthe politicaldiscussion withinthe Committee Substitution community committee is in factone of the meansto Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. retaining that sense of community, to retaining the Chairperson, I would like tomove, with theleave of sense of neighbourhood that we may in fact be the committee, that the honourablemember for Riel losing by the new changes In the Cityof Winnipeg. (Mr. Ducharme) replace the honourable memberfor Now, you said you had only, so far, one Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose), as a member of the experience of the committee as a board of appeal Standing Committeeof Law Amendmentseffective or as an appeal from the board of adjustment. I now, with the understanding that the same know that one cannot generalize from one substitution will also be moved in the House to be experience,but is there any sense in which you felt properly recorded in the official records of the thatthe community was coming together in that way, House. it was defining its own sense ofneighbourhood and Mr.Chairperson: Is there leave? that it could function in this way? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Timmers: The short answer is yes. The Mr.Chairperson : Are we agreed to theresolution? specific example was as I saw an article in the Agreed. newspaper, and you may have seen it. It was an application for an arcade in Osbome Village, in *** which the community got together, the local Mr.Chairperson : Reverend Lehotsky, would you business improvement zone, whichis the business come forward, please? assoqiation and residents. They had gone to the boardof adj ustment. I think in thatprocess of going Mr. Harry Lehotsky (Private Citizen): I have a to the boardof adj ustmentor the initialhearing body, couple of copies. you start to see whoelse is out there and you start Mr. Chairperson: Have you copies for to make your connections within your own distribution? community, andyou start devto elopthe standards Mr.Lehotsky: There are sometypos that. in Itjust and the values for your community in doing so. got put togetherabout 20 minutes before I got here. • (1550) I am here todayto express my strong opposition Anyway, they did come along to appeal and our to the section of Bill 78 which takes appeal powers community committee concurred with what the away from community committee, giving them to board of adjustment had decided, but I felt thatthe anotherstanding comm ittee of council. process was areasonable one in that the positions I am a pastor of an inner city Baptist church and had been established by both the applicant and the our family lives in the neighbourhood. Our opponent, so to speak. So that they had already community involvement includes chairperson of had an opportunity to think things out a little more, John M. King Parent Council, head of the Block because they had each heard each other's Parents in our neighbourhood, and co-chair of the argumentsand so on. So I felt thatthe process was Inner CityAdvisory Committee on Education. I also smoother in that sense than having the first round serveas a member of the WestCentral Network; the at community committee. Manitoba Baptists' Association executive as their I want to make it clear that if we can retain the secretary, and also the Evangelical Fellowship of appeal powers at community committee, I am all in Winnipeg. support of the board of adjustment because it I list these not to try to impress you with my streamlines things for us. Ittakes theworkload off busyness, but I have discussedthese concems with councillors that should come off councillorsso that each of these groups and they have each shown June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 163

strong opposition to the proposed changes in this what happened is you had a more centralizedgrou p bill. They are concerned. These are notjust inner­ that you had to deal with, you had to get moreradical city residents, and they are not justtalking about one and more militant In theway thatyou achieved your party or another. Thisis a strong concern thatthey objectives. have. Example: Case in point-we were dealing with a I love Winnipeg. Just briefly, my wife and I just massage parlour owner who would not listen to the became citizens last year. We moved here from will of the community, so we decided he was using New York. I enjoy the city. I appreciate the the inner city as a toilet for his garbage. We decided diversity, and I like whatis happening here. I would to reroute the plumbing. like to see it kept thatway andim proved rather than We found outhis homeaddress and we tookthe let it decline to some ofthe other placesI have been. toilet, rerouted the plumbing out there, and we I grew up in New York City, lived in Boston and started letting all his neighbours know about what Chicago before coming here to Winnipeg. I am not he was doing. Nothing illegal about that. We just coming here to complain, but rather to sound a clear wanted to inform his neighbours about their warning. neighbour. Example of cities in the U.S.: Cities in the U.S. These kind of strategies will continue and are now reaping the benefits of similar misguided intensify if thisis the type of system that you set up, assumptions and laws. In effect,their laws and their where a local community feels unable to express planners' philosophiesof containment have created their concerns locally. They have to express them ever-growing ghettoes whose anger and problems to a broader group. They have to lobby a broader have been seething andspilling over into the rest of group. That creates more of a confrontational those cities. atmosphere. You see that in the States. You are Inner cities in the United States have been moving in that direction. decimated by politicians who make decisions about You are encouraging people to lobby throughthe communities they do not live in. These politicians media and the city planning department rather than do not live in the inner city and are accountable to directly to local city councillors. These local people who do notlive in the inner city. councillors see patterns in the community and are Suburban decision-makers caneffectively pursue more accountable to the community than anyone containment philosophies which protect their own else. This lobbying will be expressed in more neighbourhoods while tunnelling undesirable militant ways. Inner-city residents will be businesses and activities into certain inner city encouraged to collect condoms and hypodermics neighbourhoods. found on theirstreets and drop themoff in suburban Another major point: This bill limits the input of communities of people who do not understand our the people who know their community best, the concerns. residents. To me, if you are talking street sense, Today I was at city Planning Committee and and I appreciate that because that is mostly what I somebody said: if you have got a problem,call the end up talking with people everyday, it makes sense police. The problem they were talking about was that people in the community know best what is part of the problem that has been compounded by goodfor the community. They live thereevery day. the police and their refusal to acknowledge what They have to walk past these businesses. goes on in pawnshops. Itwas just so frustrating to No one will ever convince me that the people who hear somebody who is hearing these things-end live in our community do not know best what the thisis supposedto be thegroup that is hearing these problems are and what can be done about them. things on an ongoingbasis-end he is saying to me, Our children growup here. call the police. I have three children, ages seven to five. We The police have categorically stated thatthere is shop here; we go to school and church here in our no relationship between pawnshops and property community. This bill will not discourage lobbying. crime. There is no cause and effect relationship. In fact, it will encourage a new form of more militant You would say that to anybody in our and confrontational lobbying. I have seen that. I neighbourhood who has street sense,and they will was trained in that model in the States, because tell you what they think of that and what theythink 164 LEGISLATIVEASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

of the police and how respect for government is to the community. You may hope it will help, but eroded in that kind of atmosphere. You will see an present realities and the realities of city politicswill increasingly confrontational style of organizing, as not allowit. you see in the U.S. Number one: There is an assumption that the Next point: This bill will nothelp those seekingto next city Planning Committee will be more promote the corporate image or atmosphere of representative of all communities. You know that Winnipeg. If you are concerned for the corporate thiswill not necessarily be the case. image of Winnipeg, you do not want to see the Two: there is an assumption that the city negative thingsand tactics in the news that you are Planning Committee will have a more "objective& encouraging if you pass this bill. Too many laws view. This is already encouraged by the Board of and by-laws are naive. We know that. We will call Adjustment. You have already stripped community it what it is. committee from hearing the initial application and Too many politicians hide behind these naive now you are showing your true intent, to strip laws and, in the end, protect only their own community committeesof their power. Incidentally, community or Interests. When you give us no other the Board of Adjustment already sparked concern effective means of protecting our communities-an in our community because no one on this board is emphasis on "effectivea -our last option is in the elected and the majoritydo not live in the inner city. streets and through the media. These * (1600) demonstrations and the flawed laws which encouraged them will not be good news for those So we are concerned, but again, we could live trying to promote a positive image for ourcity and with that if we still had appeal powers. Butwe feel province. This bill discourages community like one-half ofthe thing has been taken away from initiativesfor improvement by making many of their us, and now theother half is choppedoff from under effortsirrelevant. us and we feel like thereis very littlerecourse for us anymore. It is not that this disqualifies suburban I am all for the philosophy which admonishes people from understandingour concerns,but it does individuals and communities to pick themselves up give us the feeling that decision making has been by the bootstraps. I get requests for help all the moved further away from the community most time. We live there, we work there. In the church affected by the decisions. and at my door, I get requests for help, and I tell Three: There is an assumption that the people, youhave to do somethingyourself before I motivationof an outsiderwill be more pure than that go ahead and pitch in and help you. I have to see of a community resident. No one is more qualified a desire to help. to speak to a situation than a stakeholder in that At the same time, however, I see, in a very system. No one is as careful in examination and practical way, you are handcuffing us as a implementation as a stakeholder. I am a lot more community, which is willing to do some of that careful about pawnshops because they are right picking ourselves up by the bootstraps, before we next door to me. They are all around the house. start. Following throughon community concernsby People who are somewhere else will look at the speaking to a community committee on a regular by-laws and say: Well, a pawnshop Is a permitted basis was an empowering experience which use. It is a legal business. Why bothergetting so encouraged residents further to improve their upset aboutIt? Youknow, why get in theway of this community. thing? Passage of this bill ignores realities atCity Hall. We have a stake in this. Further, my contention In a perfect system, the removal of appeal powers would be that community residents are the most would not matter that much. Councillors, even qualified and honest stakeholders in the zoning and though not from our area, would understand our variances which determine the make-up of our concerns and respond to them as impartially as if neighbourhood streets. Some will argue that theywere their ownconcerns. But the system is far stakeholders or residents are too subjective about from perfect. Passage of this bill would ignore what is good for their community. While this may present realities. Itis inexcusableand irresponsible sometimes be true, It is far more common that to pass a bill which you know will not be beneficial nonstakeholders ornonresidents of our community June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 165

approach our concerns and issues from a more Please prove themwrong and make a move thatwill theoretical than practical base. help build, ratherthan destroy communities. Theoreticaldoes not necessarilyimply objectivity. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Common sense or practicality does not imply Lehotsky. Are there any questions? Thank you subjectivity or parochialism. Our present struggles very much for yourpresenta tion. against pawnshops, arcades and massage parlours Could we move on then to the next presenter. show thisclearly. Many people are ignorant of what The committee calls Sylvia DiCosimo. Is it Miss, happens and how laws are irrelevant to the real Mrs. or Ms.? problems of these places. In my book, ignorance Ms. Sylvia DICoslmo (Private Citizen): Any title does notbring objectivity. you wish to give me. 4. There is an assumption that City Council will Mr.Chairperson: Thankyou very much. appoint a fair and impartial Planning Committee. The present City Council voted to stack the Planning Ms. DICoslmo: As long as you listen and do not Committee. Nothing in your bill addresses this talk too much. I have no handout because I will be reality. speaking. 5. There is an assumption that the councillor Mr. Chairperson: Would you proceed, please? representing his community will have adequate Ms.DICoslmo: Thank you. I am speaking on Bill influence on the planning committee's decision. 78, Clause 574(2) appeal committee being negated Even the present planning committeehas problems by Bill 78. I guessTimmers and ReverendLehotsky with quorums when councillors commenting on have pretty well summed up what I probablywould appeals must excuse themselves. I have heard have said today, except my family has lived in the now that that would change. Even if they nolonger same house on GouldingStreet, which thoseof you must excusethemselves, they will not likely be able may know Is a fringe area of the Inner city, a fringe to vote on the very issues which affect their street, sincethe 1940s. community. This is ludicrous. I have come back from living overseas for 15 6. There is an assumption that the inevitable years to raise my family there. I am notimpressed. lobbying being between councillorswill be healthier The house is still suitable, it has plaster walls, than the lobbying done by the public of the everythingis going for it, except I see an erosion of community committee. Surely, you knowthe reality the area. I see an erosion of my being able to be a of this situation better than that. This back-room participantin my neighbourhood. I want theappeal lobbying furtherdistances the public from decisions committees kept. Why?--because I have gone to made by elected representatives. three of themin the last coupleof months, and I was Justa final kind of summation: Donot duck your able to be there. responsibilityto your citizens. I say thisas--1 am not Why do I want them kept atCity Hall?--because aligned with any party. I am living in the inner city, even if I did not vote for that councillor, I know he and I am concerned aboutwhat I see. You can try will probably listen to me. How many of your to say that it is not your job to fix a blundering City constituents have triedto get In touch with you for Council, despitethe fact that thisis exactlywhat you dayson end, because you are busy? I do notknow. are attempting with this bill. I have a further I want to stay in my neighbourhood,because I live problem, you are ducking a responsibility to your there. Thatis virtually ali i have to say. citizens. You have a responsibility to deal with Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much. Are reality. there any questions? If not, thank you again for When you tried to say that City Council's your presentation. problems are not your problems to deal with,it is like The committeecalls Fred Curry. Mr. Curry, have telling the chronic alcoholic that it is not his job not you a- to drink the drink you paid for andset in frontof him. Mr. Fred Curry (Private Citizen): Yes, I do, Mr. We are waiting to see if you care. We have been Chairperson. How many copieswould you like? wamed that you donot. We have been wamedthat you are out of touch with the more painful realities Mr. Chairperson: Well, 15, if you have. of urban life. I do not want to believe those critics. Mr.Curry: I have got them. 166 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. Chairperson: Would you proceed, Mr. Curry? My second example, several years ago a fellow Mr. Curry: Thank you. My first comments are bought a house on Stafford Street near Grant. It about the amendment, that is 12(2), which is the was zoned R1 , and it was a little bit run down. To temporary use variance amendment. the delight of his neighbours, hebegan a renovation and addition to the Stafford side yard. No one I am goingto give a series of examples here. The thought to lookfor a building permit. Their pleasure first example is, within the last few years, the City turned to dismay when he opened a furniture repair Centre FortRouge Community Committee rezoned shop. Their complaints brought the matter before several areas in theirjurisdiction to R2T low-density community committee. residential. This was done so thatthe zo ning would reflect more accuratelyactual land use, and so that He was able to win sympathyand a varianceon the grounds thatthe variation would expire when he low-density housing would have the zoning moved, sold or otherwise stopped doing businessin protection that it lacked for 40 years. the house. Again, had he applied for a rezoning, he This rezoning was made necessary because 40 would not have succeeded. A few years later, he years ago the city rezoned huge areas of moved to a new location and sold the house to an low-density housing in the inner city for owner who purchased it expressly for commercial higher-density, residential, commercial and use. industrial uses. Since that time, the stock of inner The new owner argued that because the house city housinghas been decimated. The R2T zoning had not been used for residential . purposes for is intended to arrest the attrition of low-density several years it was, in fact, a commercial property, housing and stabilize these areas for low-density and he got his rezoning. residentialuse. My objection is that history teaches us that A couple of years ago and subsequent to this nonconforming uses tend to persist and not rezoning, a group of psychologists purchased a disappear. Temporary variances for commercial house in one of these areas on Balmoral Street. use in R1 districts lead to attempts to rezone that Their intentionwas toset up shop. This use is a C1 are much more plausible because of the variance. use andnormally would be thesubject of a rezoning. Again, this is not really a variance, temporary or H these individuals had applied for a rezoning, they otherwise. It is really a disguised form of rezoning, would have been turnedout onthe grounds thatthis zoning by variance,zoning by increment and zoning use and the zoning that accompanied it would by osmosis. defeat the purposes of the R2T zoning. H the powerto vary for use that is being given to Instead, they applied for a variance. Although this city is not worded to prevent incremental they were turned down at community committee, rezoning, then I think it should not be permittedat they succeeded in getting the then variances, all. conditionaluses and licencesappeals committeeto overturn this decision. In a recent court challenge My third example, St. IgnatiusChur ch and School to this decision thejudge refusedto comment on the is zoned R1 and occupies the block bounded by substantive issue which in this case was whether or Stafford, Corydon, Harrow and Jessie. There are not it defeated the purposesof the zoning by-law, four buildings in two clustershaving three separate he ruled thatthe city had the rightto offer a variance, addresses. The buildings are skewedto the Jessie side, probably because of therelative quiet provided in thiscase because ofthe way in which the statute by the residentialnature of Jessie. was worded. The power to varyis supposed to be used to make * (1610) minor adjustments for minor nonconformities for Until recently, one of these buildings was a developmentswhich in other respectsdo not defeat convent. Its address is on Jessie in the middle of the purpose ofthe applicable zoning by-law. In this the block. As a residence for sisters, it fit into the case, the variance has been used deliberately to residential quality ofJessie quite well. Last year the circumvent the by-law. H this loophole cannot be sisters moved out. The church agreed to allow plugged, then I would prefer that the city not have three groups of outsiders to use the building. One the powerto vary for use. ofthese groupsis a commercial, private, Montessori June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 167

daycare. Because the convent is attached to the I guess I just want to say that,in the definitionof church, this useis permitted in R1 . conditional uses in the front of the planningsec tion, conditionaluse is actually fairly well defined,so they Another use is the River Heights Family Life provide some structureand guidanceas to how that Centre, a nonprofit group which does worthwhile section is to be applied. The section on use work in the community, but becauseofthe intensive variances that existed before and the new one do nature of the use, it is a C1 use. not have any guidance at all. There is no definition The third group is a franchise operation, an as to what the use variance should be used for. It holistic psychotherapy business based in Europe. is supposed to be something minor. In cases like It is privately owned and charges fees for its the ones I have given you,it is used for something services. Ittoo is a C1 use. major which should have been the subject of a rezoning. St. Ignatius has been offered and accepted a request by the cityto apply for a use variance, and Example 4. I want to give an example of what I that has just happened withinthe last littlewhile. By would consider to be an acceptable use of a working with one of the city solicitors, I was able to temporaryvariance. A house located on the comer persuadethe church that the city does not yet have of Stafford and Dorchester has just been sold. It is the jurisdiction to offer a variance of this type. It is zoned R1 . The former owner lived there for 30 the intention of St. Ignatius to proceed with this years with her husbandand children. She also had variance when it becomes allowable. They are a variance going back 30 years by a board of doing this not as a temporary solution. They are adjustmentto allow six boardersinstead of the usual doing it as the easiest, immediate solution to their two. She ran a guest home for littleold ladies. She zoning problems. has livedwith the one remaining boarder forthe last few years. My objections? Again, the zoning process is being circumvented. A variance is viewed much Now, the new owner wants to run a small less seriously by all parties. The rezoning thatmust bookstore in the house as well as to live there. come inevitablyat theend of the five years is made Because the use is not permitted, and unless she is more plausible because of the variance. There is offered one of these objectionable use variances, no intent here that this procedure be temporary, and she will have torezone. To me thisis using a sledge everyone knows it. Thisis a processof rezon ing by hammer to kill a mosquito. The restrictionon home variance, in increments, by osmosis. I enclose the occupation by conditional use are intended to protect sheltered residential areas from an invasion former Sections 625(2) and 625(3) of The City of of outside traffic. This house has already been Winnipeg Act. It is on the back of the presentation invaded. It is on Stafford Street. There is 24-hour that you had. Itwas originally on an extra page, but traffic. The home occupancy by-law should be I have done two sides. These sections have the amended to permit more intensive use in these virtue ofre quiring thedesignated committee, which circumstances. Pending that amendment, she in this case is planning, to review variance should be able to receivea temporary variance until applications to ensure that theproper instrumentis that amendmentis ready. So my recommendation being used, and they cannot delegate that power is that the statutes pertaining to use variances either in those two sections. In this case, though, should promote uses in this manner. examples one and two both got through. So, in other words, that review procedure, whatever it is, The secondsection that I want to address is this did not succeed in stopping thiskind of variance. one that has just been discussed by the last few speakers, to do with removal of theappeals at the My recommendations about this are: Firstly, I community committee. On January 22, 1992, encourage inclusion of sections requiring a review pursuant to Section 643(2) and (3) ofthe act, City of the way in which use variances are used. Council debated and passeda by-law which in part Secondly, I encourage definition of these use designated community committee to hear the variances which will not permit them to be used to appeals ofvariances and conditional use. For this circumvent the rezoning process. If this cannot be particularcouncil the debate was both orderly and done, I prefer that the city not have the power to vary comprehensive. The pros and cons of available for use at all. alternatives were debated and thevote was close, 168 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

and I consider a 17-10 vote close. You need 16 to That is what we elect our councillors to do, to have an absolute majority, and to pass a motion at represent us. In this case, my influence as a council, and 17 is just one overthat. The vote was constituent can serve to balance these other close and in different circumstances might have influences-checksand balances. In theother case been reversed. I support the choice of community there are none. That is democracy, not perhaps at committee and it galls me that without even its best, but in itsreality. Do not take thisaway from botheringto see how this option will work, council's us. chosen alternative is being taken away. I almost lost an appealbecause theapplicant was It is alleged that having the appeals heard by the Royal Winnipeg Ballet rather than on the merits community committeewill give rise to parochialism. of thecase. The applicationwas supportedby a raft How will having the appeals heard by Planning of money and a very expensive lawyer. One of the Committee differ? Why Is it that when my local councillors was a balletomane and liked to rub councillorhears my appeal it is parochial, but when shoulders withthe rich andfam ous. We were saved someone else's localcouncillor hears it, the issue is by the fact that one of the councillors sitting on the deemed to be heard on its merits. I do not want to appeal had lived in our area and understood that suggest that there is no problem with parochialism. certain of our arguments were valid. This is local My observation is that parochialism is a natural knowledge, not parochialism. consequence of human nature and a political Councillors hearing appeals who have no system that elects representatives one to a knowledgeof thearea are often at a lossto assess constituency. the merits of either side. This was one of the There are other factors to be considered. It is drawbacks of theprevi ousappeal committee. They argued that a councillor hearing an appeal from a did not know what the facts were. They did not constituency otherthan his ownwill be less likely to know how to assess the information that they were be influenced unreasonably by concerns for his or being presented with. How are they to decide the her re-election and more likely to decide the issue issue on its merits? Planning Committee has the on their merits. same drawback. (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the It is argued that if my local councillor hears Chair) appeals that a higher percentage of variances and conditional uses will be appealed and community The trouble is, when the pressure to respond to committee will be overwhelmed. The rationale here the interestsof constituents is removed, there is still is that people will count on being able to exert pressure to respond to a whole bunch of other political pressure on their elected representative interests. Being a councilloror an elected politician and so swing the vote. This hope will cause more is happily or otherwisean openinvitation to all sorts of themto appeal . of people whohave all sortsof agendas. A similar argument can be made in the case of I recall the case a couple of years age in which Planning Committee. Persons aware that the chair of Planning Committee had ascertained councillors on Planning Committee have no local thata particularmatter in which she was interested knowledge of a particular area, and no because of its city-wide implications would not be accountabilityto residentsof that area, may appeal heard in her absence. She then took a short to Planning Committee in the hope that they can holiday. It was in the interest of a certain sneak one by. These sameindividuals might refrain that this matter be heard in her businessman from appealing to community committee because absence. He contacted a friend whojust happened they know the local councillorwill not be fooled, and to sit on Planning Committee. This friend had the I recall the variance for commercial use in the matter walked on the agenda and passed in the Balmoral area that I mentioned earlier. It was chair's absence. Tell me this is not parochial. Tell approached as a variance precisely because the me that this kind of scenario is preferable to having community committee could be bypassed on the appeals heardby community committee. This kind appeal. of thing can go on at community committee as well, but at least the constituents affected will be At any rate, both these arguments arespecula tive represented. and moot. Unless community committee is given a June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 169

chance, we will never know. My experience with a good decision. When that relationship between these appeals, and I am a city planner and part of representative and constituent is removed, trouble what I do is I help residents groups goingthrough ensues. the zoning process at City Hall, is that the This winter I heard a residents group from St. overwhelming majority of citizens do nothave any Norbert making a presentation to EPC. Theywere understanding of the reasons behind by-law protesting certain decisions that had been made restrictions. They do not understand the ins and and that affected them. They were asked if they outsof the process they go through. In most cases were not represented on the city-wide committee they are terrified by it. The appeal mechanism is a making the decisions. Yes, they had local people freebie, there areno stringsatt ached. People take on thecommitt ee, theysaid, but no way a city-wide it because they believe that whatever the decision, committee represented St. Norbert. if it has not gone their way, they have been the victimsof an injustice. They appeal in the hopethat In other words, they were saying they really did the wrong will be righted. The deliberate nature of not see themselves as being part of the city of the Balmoral varianceand appeal is an exception in Winnipeg. No local government,no representation, this case. no accountability equals trouble. Thank you. Suppose an issue arises that affects your The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Mr. constituents, and because you are a responsible Curry, would you entertain questions from the elected representative you make yourself familiar committee? with the situation. Suppose,too, thatwhen the time Mr. Curry: Certainly. to make the decision regarding this issue arrives, Mr. Ernst: I just have one question with regard to that one of your colleagues who knows absolutely the first part of your presentation regarding a nothing about the issue is delegated to decide it. temporary use variance. You are aware, ofcourse, Now, if this is okay withyou, thenmy plea will fall on that prior to last year's Bill 35 beingpassed, the city deaf ears. had unlimited use of that power. * (1620) Mr. Curry: Yes, sir, I was happy when you tookit Give community committee a chance. H it does away. Excuse me for interrupting. not work you can always nail them duringthe next Mr. Ernst: Are you aware then that there are session. If you are concerned that local anomalies and problems that arise as a result of us considerations narrowly construed will override taking that away? If you are a practising planner, city-wide concerns,add a section requiring thatthe you will know that there are any number of appeals be reviewed by Planning Committee circumstances that need to be addressed on a periodically to ensure that some relevant standard temporary basis. I justwanted to ask you, are you is observed. aware thatthe temporary use thatwe are proposing I figure that the changes brought in last summer for five years would have to beapproved within the coming into effect now will destroy the community context ofallowing variances at all? committee system of local government that has In otherwords, it has to be consistent with Plan been fostered during thelast 20years. Thisis being done to try andforce us to become a single city in Winnipeg. It has to not create substantial adverse effect on a neighbourhood. It also is the minimum more than just name. The trouble is, Winnipeg is variation of the by-law required to relieve any not now, nor has it ever been, a single city. A hundred years of our history prior to the last 20 injuriouseffect on the proposed property. If you do testify to that. Winnipeggers have strongmunicipal not meet those criteria, youcannot have a variance and local loyalties. Any attempt to unite the city at all. It is inappropriate to apply. should treat that loyalty as a strength not a So I think six ofone and half a dozen of theother. weakness. Attemptsto coerce unity are more likely I suppose whether the problems that arise from to drive the city apart than unite it. There is an use-and you can provide 10 or 15 proposals, and I advantage to having decisions affectinglocal issues am sure the city can provide 10 or 15 other made on a local basis. If a bad decision is made, proposals where it makes sense to do it. It really both elected representatives and residents suffer boils down to the question of who is goingto grant the consequences of that decision. Vice versa for it, and I suppose whois going to have the appeal. 170 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mr. Curry: I guess what I was hoping is that, for emphasis because we have heard now a city example, it is supposed to be a minor change, right? councillor, two community representatives and The minimum change required for a variance. Well, yourself all make a case for the province not to take to me, varying for C1 use in R1 is not a minor away from City Council the responsibility of the change; that is a major change. Primarily whatI am decision they made for appeals to be held on objectingto is that there is a lack of definition in the matters of this kind at the community committee statute to indicate what a minor change might be in level, and your suggestion is Interesting. the case of use. I just want to emphasize, and perhaps you might It is very easy in the case of a structure to specify want to comment on it again, and thatis, you state what a minor change is; it is not very easy in the on page 7: Give community committee a chance. case of use. So what happens is-1 mean, in the Ifit does not work, you can always nail them during case of the Balmoral appeal or the Balmoral the next session. If you are concemed that local variance, somebody was smart enough either to considerations narrowly construed will override figure out on theirown or to talk to somebody in the city-wide concems, add a section requiring that administration at City Hall and have them advise appeals be reviewed by a Planning Committee that, gee, theydid not really have to go for rezoning, periodically to ensure some relevant standard is here they could go for a variance and maybe get observed. away with it. What I like about thissuggestion is it is not black I would hope that, if there is some way, without and white, but it is simply saying to the province, becomingvery lengthy in the statute, of defining a look,give it a chanceto work. You can always come use variance or defining what a minor variation is back next session and change it. It is not such a considered to be, that could be included in the major factor. Perhaps you might want to comment statute, and then these variances, indeed, would on that. satisfythe criteria thatyou have just mentioned. But I do not see where-ifI amputting a C1 use under a Mr.Curry: I attendedthat particular debate where variance in an R1 , I do not see that Plan Winnipeg the amendment thatCouncillor Timmers referred to is satisfied, but it is oftenvery hard to make these was made, and becausemost of my experiencewith argumentsstick either beforea Board of Adjustment appeals was with the former conditional uses, or before a committee ofcou ncillors. variances and licence appeal committee. In my mind, that committee was an absolute disaster. I Ifthe propertyowner is thereasking for a variation hated having to appear before that committee. I based on his feeling that his property rights are being aggrieved, and he has been offered that hated having to take my residents groups before variation as part andparcel of what the bureaucratic that committee because you could never tell who process is, usually the kind ofargument that I have was going to be there, and you had absolutely no made, that maybe you should not vary for C1 and idea whatwas going to happen. R1 , is tossed outthe window right off the bat. You If the choice is between that and Planning tend to hear it as ifit were a rezoning,but you pass Committee, I would certainly take Planning it as a variance, and then in this temporary nature, Committee, believe me. At least it is a stable thatvariance is not goingto run with the title. Five committee and you know who is going to be on it, years from nowthat person is going to be back, and except that it changes every year, from period to thenthey are going to have to ask for a rezoning or period. else theyare going to have to vacate the use. My experience with the Planning Committee So I am saying, if it is going to be a rezoning, let again has been the same situation that Councillor us call it a rezoning. If it is going to be avariance , Timmers referred to. Right now, I do not think there which is something minor, I am happy for that, but are fourcommuni ties onthat. I think you have three. let us make sure we know what a minor variance You have two councillors from each of three change is. Thank you. committees. The inner city is not represented on Mr. Chomlak: I thank you for your presentation, that committee. I am fortunate that my community Mr. Curry. You make a very interesting suggestion committee has two councillors on it, and that gives on page 7 of yourpresenta tion, and I think it bears me a sense of comfort if I am bringing something June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEA SSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 171

from my area, but if I was coming from anotherpart because we did not want a gas station In it, they of town, I would not be all that confidentabout it. really do not respond that well on the spur of the moment. Interestingly enough, although council by 17to 1 0 passed this particular amendment allowing thelocal SoI am saying, let us findsome way of protecting community committeesto hear it, it was exactly the thelocal communities without encouragingthis kind opposite on Planning Committee. In other words, of parochialism, and I think that having Planning Planning Committee wants to hear them Committee review these decisions and maybe themselves. That tells you something, that having it passed right through to councilperiodically whoever is on Planning Committee right now, they so that it is debated at EPC as well as at planning are not representative of what council as a whole and then debated at council-are these decisions would do. I think that sort of situation bodes ill for being made in a parochial way? H they are, I think people bringing appeals to Planning Committee. that a vote of council that took place last January would be reversed. If you have a particular bias that is represented more on one committee than another, and that I thought that this debate was one of the happensto be the city-wide committee hearing the particularlyresponsible debates thatI have heard at appeals, it is just going to stack everything against council. There were no insults, no name calling. the residents. They just took this issueapart fromall the different perspectives and decided that they wanted the I think the other thing that is really importantabout community committee to hear these appeals. I community committee from my perspective, again figure, give them a chance to make it work. They of bringing residents groups to appeals, is thatthey were given that power last summer. Let us see if are terrified. I mean, they are frightened when they they can make it work, and then ifyou do notlike the go into community committee. Theyare even more way theyare dealing with it, take it away from them terrified if you take them to a standing committee. later. They feel a lot more secure knowing that the councillor that they elected is there to hear them. The Acting Chairperson (Mr.McAlpine) : H there are no more questions, I would like to thank Mr. Again, I am not saying that my own councillor Curry for his presentation and co-operation In cannot do rotten things to me or to my constituents. answeringquestions. I mean, thesethings happen, but thething is, at least Mr. Ernst: I propose the committee take a the person is thereto be accountable in someway. five-minute recess. If there is a problem withthese sorts of things, where you get these oddball things happeningfrom place TheActi ng Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Is that to place, where you are doing one thing in one part agreeable tothe committee? A five-minute recess of the city and another thing in another part of the then. Itis agreed. city, then let us have standards imposed by the *** legislation or someguidelines that would require the Planning Committeeto review these decisions and The committee took recess at 4:32 p.m. determine if In fact theydo reflect a city-wide thing After Recess or ifthere is some kindof local bias creeping in. The committee resumedat 4:41 p.m • • (1630) Mr. Chairperson: Would the committee please I think a good one is conditional uses on gas come to order. The committee calls Loma Cramer, stations. In the inner city, a gas station is Residents Committee of Garden City. Lorna conditional in C1 . In the other areas, it is not Cramer-not here. permitted in C1 . Itis conditionalin C2. I mean, your Mrs. Patricia Thompson, Armstrong's Point bringing gas station things or zoning things, beefs, Association. Mrs. Thompson, have you got a before a committee of council that does not have presentationto distribute? anybody from the inner city on It that has to do with a gas station, they do not understand what is going Mrs. Patricia Thompson (Armstrong's Point on becausethey are used to dealing withsomething AssociationInc.): Yes, I have. that is conditional in C2. So when you tell them, Mr. Chairperson: Mrs. Thompson, you may well, we wanted to block this particular C1 zoning proceed. 172 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mrs. Thompson: Thank you, Chairperson Penner occupation which might be suitable in the suburbs, and Minister Emst and members of the committee. for various reasons, is not suitable downtown. They I am speaking to the same issue, Bill 78, Part 20, have failed to understand the very fragile nature of Section 574, and I am speaking on behalf of the the downtown neighbourhoodsofte n. Armstrong'sPoin t Association, which is a residential Another point thatwe have found in dealing with area about twoblocks from here, the last R1 area in nonlocal appeal committees is that they have the city centre. Because of that, we spendan awful sometimes tended to adopt an "it is better in the lot of time down at City Hall tryingto keep ourarea as a residential area. downtown than in my backyard" attitude. This has to do with such things, as other people have I alsoattended a meetingon February 9 of a group mentioned today: amusement parlours, billiard which gets together informally often. We call parlours, pawnshops and this kind of thing. They ourselves the Downtown Winnipeg Neighbour­ like the idea that these are only in the City Centre­ hoods. There were a number of representatives Fort Rouge area, and so often these appeals have from various downtown neighbourhoods at that been disallowed at community committee and then meeting. We discussed this issue, and the they are overturned at the appeal. Itis because the consensus at that meetingwas what I am going to appeal committee does not understand the nature say to you today, too. They were also opposed to of the community and they also do not want to have this amendment which excludes community any chancethat these things are going to be getting committees from being an appeal committee. out into the suburbs. The associations were present at that meeting I think the most important point thatI want tomake were: the Armstrong's Point Association; the West is that theblatant abuses which have occurred with Broadway Association; Ellice-Redboine Community land use change by means of variance orders are Council; Wolseley Residents Association; possible only when there is noaccountability on the the Broadway-Assiniboine Residents Association; part of the appeal committee , and that is the Central Park Association; Point Douglas; and one situationthat you have now. You have the Board of that calls themselves NEAT and that stands for Adjustment which is not accountable to the Notre. Dame-EIIice-Arlington-Toronto; and also, community, and you have the appeal committee McDermot-Sherbrook residents. So all of those which has no accountability to thelocal community, residentsassociations were present at thatmeeting, the people who are going to be affected by that andthey all concurredthat this amendment should decision. That is when you can get the blatant not go through. abuses thatwe have seen in the past, and we have Nearly all ofthe points that I had intended to make all heard about the hotel that was going to become today have already been made very eloquently, so a seniors apartment, the shifting of appeal 1 am not going to take very much time. I just want committee participantsto getthe desired result. toreiterate some of thepoints that have beenma de. Three people today have already mentioned the Variance ordersand conditional uses tend to be one in ourco mmunity, this 82 Balmoral, where at local in nature. There are differences in thecommuni ty committee when it was disallowed­ communities in the city. Whereas a bed and this is a C1 use in an R2T area, again, it is just a breakfastmight be able to beput in one community, couple of blocks from here. Balmoral has always as a conditional use, where there is lots of room to been the boundary between the downtown park in the backyard, and this kind of thing, it may commercial area and the residential area, which is not be suitable in another neighbourhood, where enjoying quite a comeback as a residential area. At you havenarrow , little lots, no on-siteparki ng. You the community committee there were all kinds of have to consider thatthereare individual differences residents associations that appeared in opposition. in neighbourhoods. The planning department was opposed. The We have found in the past, and I have been down decision ofthe community committeeto oppose this toCity Hall an awful lotof times in the past, that the C1 , 3,500 square feet of commercial space in the nonlocal appeal committees have failed to middle of a residential block-it was opposed understand the special, and often very fragile, unanimously by all the councillors against 13 nature ofthe downtown neighbourhoods. A home supporting reasons. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 173

When thatwenttothenonlocal appeal committee, Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Are there any perhaps it was just coincidencethat the owner of the questions? house is the wife of a former city councillor, maybe Mr. Ernst: Mrs. Thompson, are you aware that it was just coincidencethat twoof thepeople on that under thesystem that hasexisted for20 years and appeal committee, two of the four members, were the system that exists today, the local councillor former colleagues of that city councillor on his within the community committee may make no community committee. Itcertainly did not appear to representation either onthe initial applicationor the be coincidence when that 3,500 square feet of C1 appeal? commercial space was allowed in the middle of a Mrs. Thompson: Yes, I am aware that is the residential block. Itappeared to be a blatant abuse system now. Well, not now, because now the of thevariance and conditional use appealprocess, appeal is at the community level. and that is going to happen again when there is no accountability. If those councillors who made that * (1 650) decision had to facethe voters, they would not have Mr. Chairperson: I would ask Mrs. Thompson to dared make that decision, but there was no allow the minister- accountability in thatcase and that is what we have Mrs. Thompson: I am sorry. to avoid. Mr. Chairperson: -unless I recognize you, your I just wanted to say this, since Bill 78 once again comments will not be recorded, because the mike makes possible land use changes, and our initial will not go on until I recognize you. Mr. Minister, reaction was to oppose these temporary variances please proceed. which you are now allowing, but I know that the Mr. Ernst: now planning department has requestedthat power and Mr. Chairperson, I have lost my train ofthought again here. I can see that there are reasons for it, but you have to then allow some accountability in the appeal Mr.Chairperson: Please proceed, Mr. Minister. process if you are going to allow land use changes Mr. Ernst: Thank you. You are aware then that by means of variance. heretoforeand presently thelocal councillor may not There are just a couple of other points that I represent his community of interest other than by wanted to deal with. One was your response to way of his vote at a communitycomm ittee meeting. CouncillorTimmers in that one of the reasons why Mr. Chairperson, before we ask Mrs.Thompson to you felt that it was important that the Planning reply, I want to clarify that. Committee bethe appeal bodywas for consistency, Presently, under the current system, where the but I think the by-law is what provides the application is heardby the Boardof Adjustmentand consistency. Variances are-they are the bending the appeal by the community committee, because of the rules. They are the exception to the rule. thething may be appealed, the councillorwill have They are the thingsthat deliberately takeaway from to sit quasi-judicially in community committee; consistency. The by-law provides the consistency. therefore, the councillor cannot make Variances are the exceptions to the rule, and they representation before the Board of Adjustment. have to depend on the local interests of that local The councillor may not publicly side one way or community. another before the appeal is heard by community committee, because of the fact that it is again a I would just like to say that I think Mr. Curry's quasi-judicial system. suggestion that you give the present system a try and if it does not work, if there are abuses of it or if H the proposedchanges that wererepresented in it does not appear to work, then you can have thisbill pass, in fact, then thecouncillor may, No. 1, another opportunity to change that part of it, but I make representation on behalf of his constituents before theBoard of Adjustmentand also may make thinkyou should give it a tryand let people who are representation on theappeal, because theywill not accountablefor their decisionsbe the ones who are have been sitting in judgment on either-save the making those decisions. case where they are a member of the appeal Thank you very much, and if there are any committee. I just wanted to know if you were questions I will try to answer them. familiar with that? 174 LEGISLATIVEA SSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Mrs.Thomps on: Yes, Mr. Minister, I am aware of Morleyand Bev Jacobs here? Mr. Jacobs, have that. I thinkthat if Bill 78 goes through,it will put the you a presentation for the committee? Mr. Jacobs, councillorsin an impossibleposition . It will put them would you proceed please. in the position of being pulled one way and the other Mr. Morley Jacobs (Private Citizen): Mr. by their constituents and be put in a very difficult Chairperson, committee members, I feel privileged position when they had to make representation at to have this opportunity to make this presentation, either of these bodies, and they are still not and together with that, I guess I am proud also to be accountable. and have been a resident of West Kildonan for over Mr.Ernst: You do notthink that happens now? 40 years. Before I make this presentation, I must Mrs. Thompson: Well, you are saying that, now apologize for the last few pages which are in the under the current system, the councillors cannot written form. I guess I went through what we might make representation at either of those. They call a true Mondaywhe n my computer went out, and cannot make representation at the Board of with my one-fingered ability with the typewriter, the Adjustment. When it comes down to making the typewriter ribbon went out halfway through, so I decision, then they are put in that quasi-judicial apologize and hope you can read my writing. position, as you describedit. They are accountable Firstof all, I am making a presentationnot only as for the actions that they take. a resident ofWest Kildonan but also in my capacity Mr. Ernst: I am suggesting that you do not think as a trustee in the Seven Oaks School Division, theyare tornnow. I can tell you that during thetime where I went through the complete process that Bill when the community committee heard the original 78 is to replace. I am strongly against Bill 78, and I application, it was common practice that if 1 0 people believe that I have an example of why the present showed up in opposition,regardless ofhow correct system is clearly the best alternative. I must also or incorrectthe d ecisionmay have been, it was very say that the arguments against Bill 78 have been easy for the community committee to simply turn it well articulated thus far, and I guess, it is funny, or down and let the appeal committee deal with it. not so much funny, but the fact that all of us come Thatis not being accountable in my view. from very diverse backgrounds and differences of opinions, we all seem to be saying the same thing Mrs. Thompson: I found in practice- with differentexamples . I, too, will be giving you an Mr. Ernst: That is not addressing the specific example of going through a process that I think Issues that are coming before the community clearly demonstrates that Bill 78 is not the committee, andthat was very common practice. alternative that should be chosen. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much. I know On October 15, 1991 , an application for the how difficult it is. conditional use under Zoning By-law No. 4450 to

Mrs. Thompson: I have found in practice thatthe permit an amusement parlour at Garden City community committees have not given up their Shopping Centre was presented to the Lord responsibility; they have always listened very Selkirk-West Kildonan Community Committee carefully to the issues and have considered them which comprises the five resident city councillors. very carefully. On occasion they have gone on to The applicationhad receivedapproval from the City appeal, but it usually has not beenat the request of of Winnipeg zoning and licensing departments. any councillors in my experience. This applicationwas opposed by a large segmentof the community which included letters from school Mr.Chairperso n: Any otherquestions? principals,letters from parent-teacherassoci ations, Mr.Chomlak: I just want tothank you and saywell letters from area residents, signatures of hundreds done with your exchangewith the minister. of residents, of residents' petitions, and formal Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mrs. presentations from the Seven Oaks school board Thompson. and numerous private presentations. The next presenter is David Cramer, private The resident councillors turned down the citizen. Is Mr. Cramer here? Not here. Dena application with the only dissenting vote coming Sonley, Michael Sawka, not here. Mr. and Mrs. from Councillor Mendelson, whose constituency Robert Peterson, are they here? Not here. Mrs. included the Garden City Shopping Centre. It is AntoniaEngen, is she here? Lori Janower? important to note this. Ms. Mendelson's contention June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 175

was that the issuewas one of equal opportunityfor the adjoining property and adjacent area; (3) that it all entrepreneurial endeavours in the community, complies with Plan Winnipeg and thespecific zoning and the question of the moral aspects of the by-law in question. enterprise and thewishes, needs and safety of the Based onthe above three criteria, the application community was not the issue. Needless to say, the had received approval from the City of Winnipeg decision was appealed and the appeal took place zoningand licensing departments. Theapplication on November 14, 1991 , at City Hall before the was opposedby a large segmentof the community Variance, Conditional Use and License Appeal Committeemade up of citycouncillors but excluding once again, which included letters from school representation from the five resident councillors in principals, lettersfrom parent-teacherassoc iations, the Lord Selkirk-West Kildonan Community in thiscase letters fromchurches, letters from area Committee. residents,signatures ofhundreds of residentsin the immediate area in various petitions, and formal Both sides made presentations and the final presentations that night from the Seven Oaks decision resultedin theappeal beingallowed . The School Board and numerous private presentations. reasons for the reversal included the following: 1. The area councillor, Mrs. Mendelson, voted in In thefinal analysis, the Board of Adjustment, in favour of the original request for a licence, and 2. Itswisdom , turneddown theapplication since two of Othercity councillors felt that since video arcades the criteria were not met, in their opinion: (1) the were already present in their constituencies Itwas proposed business was not compatible with the quite acceptable forone being approved in the Lord area, and (2) the residents living on three sides of Selkirk-West Kildonan jurisdiction. Therefore, there Northgate Shopping Centre and who appeared at is no accountabilityin this particularappeal process. the public hearing demonstrated that the type of business operations conducted in the shopping * (1700) centre has an impacton their lifestyle , andthis type Itis quite obvious thatthe decisionmade by these of business operation is unacceptable. By theway, councillors was based on the previous voting this is the wording ofthe Board of Adjustment. patterns ofthe fiveresident councillors on the Lord Selkirk-West Kildonan Community Committee and An appeal of this decision will be heard on July not on the issue itself. That is, the wishes of the 21, 1992, before the Lord Selkirk-West Klldonan community were not an issuein thefinal vote . Itwas Community Committee, hopefully, made up of the apparent that this method of decision making was five city area councillors. I believe that this appeal unjust and a new system was instituted-! put procedure, together with the previous licensing January 1992, I am really not sure of that. step, is appropriate, and is In factthe best overall process in operation to date, in that the finalappeal In this new system all requests for commercial must be approved by the area community licences must first go through the usual City of councillors who understand the community Winnipeg zoning and licensing departments for demographics, needs and wishes of Its residents, approval, and once approved, must in turn be approved by the independent Board of Adjustment and their decisions are unlikely to be affected by made up of residentsof Winnipeg who have no ties external influences and pressures. with City Hall. The Board of Adjustment hears all Bill 78 will eliminate a licensing procedurethat is presentations, for and against, before a final unaffected by the interpersonal relationships decision is made. betweencity councillors, tit-for-tat decision making, On May 22, 1992, an application for the and the personal ambitions of city councillors as it conditional use, under Zoning By-law No. 4450, to might relate to theirvoting patterns. Bill 78 will allow permit an amusement parlour at Northgate the City of Winnipeg zoning and licensing Shopping Centre was presented to the Board of departmentsto not only decide on theacceptabHity Adjustment. In order to be approved by the Board of a licence request, but also will serve as the only of Adjustment an application must satisfy three avenue for appeal. I have demonstrated to you on criteria: (1) it must be compatible with the area; (2) two recent occasions where the zoning and that It does not create a substantialadverse effect licensing departments made decisions contrary to on the amenities, use, safety and convenience of the wishes of thecommu nity in question. 176 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

Licensing and zoning departments make substantial change which diminishes their decisions based on criteria that are not influenced representation to issues. by specific area demographics, needs and wishes, I question thereason ing of the government which and where morality, safety-which is one of the seeks to make amendmentsto The City of Winnipeg criteria used-and health ofthe community is not an Act without providing to the public, which has no issue. We must ensure that we have a system of difficulty with the current process, as to the steps that negates cold decision making, that is, a necessity for an amendment. I therefore petition system that is humanistic andholistic , a system that this Legislative Assembly to withdraw the has the concerns and needs of the citizens of amendment under Bill 78 in an act of goodfaith to Winnipeg as the ultimate issue of question. the communities of Winnipeg before passage today, The present system and stops and starts or and I thank you. checks and balances, if you may, addresses all Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mrs. issues. Bill 78 is regressive, unresponsive and Jacobs. Are there any questions of Mrs. Jacobs. open to external pressures, influences and possibly No. Thank you again. graft. I ask that this committee seriously consider The committee calls LoriJanower. Nothere . Mr. the ramifications of Bill 78 and put it aside for a more Max Saper. Not here. Mr. Robin Weins. Not here. comprehensive review and analysis of how the system could be better served. Let us continue to We have one extra presenter. Mr. Richard ensure that accountability remains at the local Chartier,Chamber of Commerce. He indicated that community level. Thank you. he was on his way down here, but he is not here yet. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Mr. Jacobs. Are We have another person, Guy Jourdain of the there any questions? If not, thank you very much SFM who is here. Mr. Jourdain, have you a for the presentation. I would like to ask, doesMrs. presentation to distribute? Jacobs have a presentation? Would you come Mr.Guy Jourdain (Socl6t6 franco-manltobalne): forward please. Have you a presentation for Yes, I do. distribution? Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. Would you Mrs.Bev Jacobs (PrivateCitiz en): I apologize, proceed, please? having had no access to a typewriter; the ribbon Mr. Jourdain: Mr. Chairperson, members of the broke. So I will provide you with a photocopy if you committee. My name is Guy Jourdain. I am a so desire. member of the political claims committee of the I have been a resident of the city of Winnipeg all Societe franco-manitobaine. Mr. Druwe, the of my life, and I would like to speak to the president of the societe is unavailable at this time amendment under Bill 78. although he was here this afternoon at approximately 2:40. Unfortunately, we were a bit The proposed changes under Bill 78, which will late. amend The City ofWinnipeg Act, is contrary to the Mr. Chairperson: Could I interrupt and let the wishes of the communities in which variance ministerhave onequesti on, please? requestsand their opponents come into dialogue. Mr.Jourdai n: Certainly. This amendment under Bill 78 will distance people, I believe, and their elected representatives Mr.Ernst : Mr. Jourdain, can you tell me, is George from having their concerns heard in the manner in on his way and we want to wait for a couple of which they are currently heard. minutes, or he is not available at all? Mr.Jourdain: No, I do not think he is going to be The wordingof Bill 78 clearlyallows the potential able to attend at all. for a closed-doors policy in the hearings of first judgments and their subsequent appeals. No Mr. Ernst: Okay. amount of political doublespeak, making Mr.Chairperson: Would you proceed, please. assuranceswhich claim that Bill 78 is nochange, or * (1 710) change of little consequence, is an acceptable response to concerns about this amendment since Mr. Jourdain: I have a preliminary point to raise. there are petitioners here who perceive a We fully expected to be able to make our June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEAS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA

presentation in the French language. We had For example, recentlythe Royal Trust established prepared our notes in the French language, and I a telecommunication service here in the city of will have to present you with a rough translation of Winnipeg dueto the presence of alarge number of our notes. We find it extremely deplorable that a bilingual citizens. They were able to hire bilingual committee which studies a bill related to the citizenswho were able to providea bilingual service provision of French language services does not on a national level for the Royal Trust. itself provide simultaneous translation services. Now, to deal with the bill itself, I would like to refer This point being made,I will now proceed with our you to the analysis which we forwarded to the submission as to the bill itself. As you know, Part3 minister, which was the basis for some of our of The City of Winnipeg Act was enacted in the early discussions over the course of the last fewweeks. 1970s at the time that the city of St. Boniface was On the basis of our concept of active offer, we amalgamated with the city of Winnipeg. At that present the document in both official languages. time, a historical compromise was made whereby You will see in the introduction that the Societe the citizens of the old cities of St. Boniface and St. franco-manitobaine is generally pleased with the Vital were provided with certainguar antees as to the bill. maintenance of their linguistic and cultural identity. The bill meets the fundamental demandsset out By and large, unfortunately, these guarantees by the Societe franco-manitobaine over the last, were not enforced in everyday life and remain to a maybe, seven or eight years. However, with large extent a dead letter. Many efforts have been respect to the implementation process, the Societe franco-manitobaine has a number of concerns on made over the course of the last few years to which I will elaborate a little bit later. improve this situation. Various committees have reviewed Part 3 of The City of Winnipeg Act in order As I mentioned,we have had discussionswith the to amend it. ministerand other governmentoffi cialsover the last The Cherniack Committee, I believe, was the first few weeks. We met with Minister Ernst and his officialson June 18. At that time,we discussedthe committee to review Part 3 of The City of Winnipeg document thatwe have provided you with. Firstof Act, and it made certain recommendations in that all, we would like to thank themi nister. We were of regard in 1984. Since thattime, the government of the opinion that he considered our representations Manitoba established a joint committee formed of with a very open mind. We agreed on a significant provincial government and the Cityof Winnipe g the number of amendmentsto be made to the bill which to review Part3 of The City of Winnipeg Act. will alleviate a number of our concerns. In fact, we have been involved in the dual-track Unfortunately, we were not able to agree on some process for the last two or three years. We have issues. I will elaborate on that, once again, a little been talking with the City of Winnipeg about the bit later. But before talkingabout the short comings implementation of the current Part 3 of the of thebill, I would like topoint out the strong features provisions as theyexist, and wehave been talking of the bill. with boththe City and the government of Manitoba The bill is a definite improvement as comparedto about amendments to Part 3, about improvement current Part 3 of The City of Winnipeg Act. There concerning Part3 of The City ofWinnipeg Act . Our are a number of checks and balances that have discussions with both the city and the government been incorporated in the bill and which constitute a of Manitoba have beenvery fruitful. There is a lot definite improvement. For example, the designated of goodwill. area is now much larger. It comprisesthe territory For example, the City of Winnipeg and the of theold village of St. Norbert, andthis is a definite government of Manitoba are very aware ofconcerns improvement. of the French-speaking community. They are very Asfar as the checks and balances are concerned, aware of our objective to normalize French life In one of theflaws of the current Part 3 is that there is Manitoba. They are very aware of our needs no enforcement mechanism. There is a definite concerning the concept of activeoff er, and they are improvement in the current bill. For example, a also aware ofthe economic benefits thatflow from French language services co-ordinator would be the concept of a bilingual city. appointed. There would be a mechanism for 178 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1992

complaints to the city ombudsman. There would be of uncertainty in this mechanism, and we proposed an annual report thatwould be filed by the City of an alternative solution to the minister during our Winnipeg with the minister; and aftera periodof five meetingof last week. We proposedthat the bill, that years, there would be a comprehensive review of Part 3, could come into force at that same time that the operation ofthe act. So we feel that all of these the implementation by-law would be passed by the measures would certainlystrengthen Part 3 of The City of Winnipeg, provided, of course, that the City of Winnipeg Act. by-law is passed before thedead line set in the act. Asfor the shortcomingsof the bill, as I mentioned, We would ask that the committee consider very we were able to agree on amendments that relate carefully this proposal. to a large number of our concerns. There are a few * (1720) outstanding issues, one of them being the Once again we would like to express our thanks implementation process. The minister indicated to the minister andto government officials for all the that he would be prepared to propose an time they tookto consider our representations. We amendment which would set a deadline for the adoption ofan implementation by-law by the City of feel that it has been an extremely productive Winnipeg. We are extremely pleased with that. process, and we hope that we will be able to solve the outstanding issues in the favourable matter. However, the implementation plan that would be Thank you very much for your time. passed by theCity ofWinnipeg would not be subject Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. to any deadlines in the act itself. So, in other words, Jourdain. in theory, the City of Winnipeg could indicate in its implementation plan that it does notplan to provide Mr. Ernst: Thank you for your presentation. As bilingual signs before the expiration of a period of 25 you mentioned, we had a discussion last week with years. I know that in reality this will probably not regard to a number of these issues, and I will be happen, but it is still a theoretical possibility. So we introducing, for the information of members of the would very much like a mechanism that would committee, when we get to clause-by-clause ensure the implementation of Part 3 before a set consideration, a number of amendments. deadline, a fixed date. However, that is notgoing to deal entirely with our A second concern which we have deals with the disagreement, yoursand mine particularly. wording of subsections 87.4(3) and 87.5(5). The In fact, I can say facetiously, I accused him of interpretation that was given to us by government being a lawyer over the consideration of that officials is that the City of Winnipeg would be particular clause because we are of the view, required to offer services in the French language in contrary to Mr. Jourdain, that it does say what he offices located outside of the designated area, that says it does not-in other words, that the city is there would be an obligation to that effect. Our obliged to provide services throughoutthe city, that interpretation does not confirm that unfortunately. it is only a question ofwhat building it is provided in. We are of the opinionthat the city would have a As opposed to having theconcern of Mr. Jourdain full discretionary power to designate locations that they are not obliged, we are of the view they outside of the designated area where services are. I guess we will have to see what happens, I would have to be provided in both languages. suppose, ultimately. Our people are saying we do Therefore, we would request that thecomm ittee ask not need to make it any clearer; it is there for the legislative draftspeople who are present here compliance by the City of Winnipeg. todayto look at this issue and to determine whether The question of when it comesinto force, we did or not the wording of these subsections is not clear have some discussion about that as well. It is our enough. We would feel extremely relieved if a view that we would reserve the right to proclaim it clarification was made to the wording of these on a specific date in order not to require legislative particularpro visions. amendments in case a specific date mentioned in Lastly, our third concern has to do with the date the legislation is not met. We will see the results of for thecoming into force ofPart 3. In the current bill, that later on when I have another amendment on a Part 3 would come into force at a date fixed by differentmatter totally, as a result of some changes proclamation. We feel that there is a strong element that require furtheramendment. June 22, 1992 LEGISLATIVEASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 179

Generally speaking, I think we are agreeable in constitutional committee. But do we have anything most cases, Mr. Chairperson, but I wanted to advise on record as a regular policy in the House? the delegation that we still reserve comment on Mr. Ducharme: You would have to ask the those twoissues that he raised. Speaker what the regulations are. Itis not underthe Mr. Jourdain: We simply wanted these concerns GovernmentServices. to be a matterof official record. it If is at all possible Mr.Gaudry: Mr. Chairperson, I have had it on five for the draftspeople to have a look at it andto see if minutes notice. That is why I say I have been clarifications could be done, then we would be satisfied in gettingtranslati on. pleased with that. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much. I think Mr. Nell Gaudry(S t. BonHace): First, I would like thatclarifies the issue. to say merci to Mr. Jourdain for his presentationthis Floor Comment: No, it does not. afternoon, and I would like also to concur with the fact that he was not able to present his brief in Mr. Chairperson: Well, what I can undertake as French. I do not where the system has failed; Chairpersonof the committee isto raise it with the maybe nobody asked for it, because I know Speaker's office to ensure that when we have personally I have had satisfaction when I have bilingual presentations that there will in fact be asked for a translation in the House. Probably interpretive or translation services provided. I I somewhere along the line nobody asked for it. Therefore, say, think the Issue has been well presented and note taken by the Chair to raise it with I know during Question Period we always have the Speaker's office. Hopefully, in futurethis will not translation there, like last week when ·1 made my happen again. Thank you, Mr. Jourdain. brief commentson Bill 78 1 made them in French and I translation stayed in the House without any understandthat we had agreed at the beginning problem. I guess there was somewhere we failed of thehearings ofthis committeeto call again those I in having translation here for you people. I do not presenters who were not present, and will proceed to do so. know who Is going to apologize, but anyway it should have been there. I concur with your Mr. Chomlak: I believe our agreement was to call concerns. Merci beaucoup. the speakersagain at seven o'clock. I just want to make certain that those who are not present on a Ms.Friesen : Perhaps, couldI just followup on that second call will still have an opportunityto appear and ask the Minister of Government Services (Mr. at seven o'clock. That Is my concern. Ducharme) what the regulation is. I understand informallyfrom the Clerk that 24-hour noticewould Mr. Chalrperson: Ifthat is agreed,then what is the normally be the issue. I know when other will of theco mmittee? Is it the will of thecommittee committees have gonearound the province it has then to recess until seven o'clock? Agreed. been provided automatically, for example in the COMMmEEROSE AT: 5:28 p.m.