Tuesday Volume 519 23 November 2010 No. 77 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Tuesday 23 November 2010 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 147 23 NOVEMBER 2010 148 scrapped entirely. It is critical of the way they work, and House of Commons it is clear that they are not working as intended, but the Government are hoping to take a balanced view. We Tuesday 23 November 2010 must obviously protect the public against dangerous people and the risk of serious offences being committed on release. On the other hand, about 10% of the entire The House met at half-past Two o’clock prison population will be serving IPP sentences by 2015 at the present rate of progress, and we cannot keep piling up an ever-mounting number of people who are PRAYERS likely never to be released. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Does the Secretary [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] of State accept that it is inherent in both life sentences and the concept of IPP sentences, which are widely supported throughout the Chamber, that many prisoners Oral Answers to Questions will be tariff-expired because the idea is that they are not released until it is judged that it is safe to do so? Does he also accept that although it is true that the precise construction of the clauses was inappropriate JUSTICE and led to some very short tariffs, since the changes that I introduced in 2008, the number of new IPP sentenced The Secretary of State was asked— prisoners has dropped by 50% from about 1,500 to under 1,000 a year? Would it not be far better for public Imprisonment for Public Protection safety to let that work through instead of prematurely releasing such prisoners? 1. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): How many prisoners who have completed their tariff remain in prison for the Mr Clarke: No, it has always been the case that some purpose of public protection. [25560] people are held indeterminately, and certainly those on life sentences. The purpose of IPP sentences was to have The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice a sentence below a life sentence for dangerous people (Mr Kenneth Clarke): On 17 November 2010, 14,680 for whom life was not quite justified. The right hon. prisoners were serving an indeterminate sentence of Gentleman will accept that such sentences never worked imprisonment for public protection, or a life sentence in as intended, which is why, when he was Secretary of prisons or secure hospitals. Of those, 6,320 are held State, he introduced an Act of Parliament to try to beyond their tariff expiry date, excluding offenders who correct some of the mistakes that had been made. We have been recalled to custody following release. are now considering how the sentence works in practice, and we will introduce considered proposals in due course. John Mann: Those prisoners have been held in prison for good reasons and on good judgment. Does the Administration of Justice Secretary of State intend, as is rumoured throughout prisons, to reduce the number of such offenders in 2. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): What proposals prison? If so, how many sex offenders and violent he is considering to increase the level of efficiency in criminals will be released back into our communities? the administration of justice. [25561] Mr Clarke: That rumour is probably on the hon. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice Gentleman’s website where I have seen that he is telling (Nick Herbert): Following the spending review, the Ministry his constituents that I will release robbers, burglars, of Justice must make a total budgetary saving, including drug dealers and so on. Perhaps he will wait for the resource and capital spending, of 25% in real terms sentencing review, and stop living in a fantasy world. between 2010-11 and 2014-15. The indeterminate prison sentence has never worked as intended. The intention was that it would apply to a Guy Opperman: I remind the House of my former few hundred dangerous people who were not serving profession of barrister. Eleven years ago, the Labour life sentences. The number is piling up, and more than Government introduced the Woolf reforms, which changed 6,000 have gone beyond their tariff, but they will not all manners of process in the civil courts. What detailed simply be released. We will re-address the subject, and proposals does the Minister have for the same telephone we will not release all the people he keeps telling his case management in criminal work, particularly post-not constituents we will release. guilty pleas, and after-guilty pleas and sending matters for pre-sentence report? Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Will the Secretary of State look at the Prison Reform Trust’s Nick Herbert: We are certainly interested in improving report and specifically conduct a review of the social the efficiency of justice by looking at case management, and financial costs and benefits of IPP sentences, and and some encouraging pilots have been run in London, examine the available policy options set out by the trust? in which costs have been saved through integrated case management arrangements between the Crown Prosecution Mr Clarke: We are taking a balanced look at the Service and the police. We are also very interested in whole subject. The Prison Reform Trust takes quite the employing the greater use of technology, such as virtual opposite view to that of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw courts, and I would be very happy to talk to my hon. (John Mann). It believes that those sentences should be Friend about other ideas as well. 149 Oral Answers23 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 150 Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): In the offenders who are looked-after children. Typically, they name of so-called efficiency of justice, the Secretary of do not have the same support networks that other State has scrapped the post of chief coroner, a move young offenders have. Will the Minister now commit to widely condemned by organisations such as Inquest revisiting this issue to ensure that vulnerable young and the Royal British Legion. They point out that tens offenders are given the help and support that they need of thousands of people every year are forced to grapple to get their lives back on track? with the archaic, unaccountable coroners system, which needs the reforms promised by the Coroners and Justice Nick Herbert: I certainly agree with the hon. Lady Act 2009. The Minister said that scrapping the chief about the importance of providing such support. Last coroner was necessary to save money, but what assessment week, I visited Feltham young offenders institution has he made of the increased costs that will be incurred with the Mayor of London and saw how innovative through the greater use of judicial review, which is arrangements to provide greater support and counselling bound to result from this short-sighted decision? May I for young people had a considerably reduced the recidivism invite the Secretary of State or his Minister to put on rate on a particular wing in that institution. That shows record now exactly what the real cost will be of that that, with better rehabilitation, we can get better results. false efficiency? Or will he take this opportunity to I would be very happy to talk to the hon. Lady about any reverse that misguided proposal? specific ideas she might have for improving the system. Nick Herbert: We do not think that this was a sustainable Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Is it proposal, with set-up costs of £10 million and running any wonder that children in care do not have the necessary costs of £6 million a year. The important thing now is continuity of support once they are in custody, given to reform the coroners system appropriately to ensure that the full financial responsibility of local authorities the efficient administration of justice in this area. is lost at that point? Will the Government ensure that when such children in care are in custody, they are not Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): What out of sight, out of mind and off the financial books of steps are Ministers taking to ensure that savings do not the local authorities? simply become higher costs for other Departments or other parts of their own Department, whether in the Nick Herbert: It is important to ensure that the context of magistrates court closures, which adds to incentives are right, that we deter the inappropriate use police costs, or changes in the legal aid system that of custody for young people and that local authorities generate demand for expenditure elsewhere? Is there a are fully focused on what they need to do to reduce mechanism for assessing how costs will fall elsewhere? recidivism before the use of custody becomes important. Nick Herbert: I agree with my right hon. Friend Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The Minister about the importance of ensuring that what he describes will be aware that, according to a written ministerial does not happen, but he will know that there is significant statement today, the Omand review of the case of under-utilisation of magistrates courts. That is why we Jon Venables was released this morning.