jagoda buić Uranjanje u ishodište mita

jagoda buić Immersion Into the Origin of the Myth

razgovarala interviewed by

fotografije photographs by Arhiva / Archive Jagoda Buić (jb); Vedran Benović, Srećko Budek - Muzej za umjetnost i obrt / Museum of Arts and Crafts(bb); Damir Fabijanić (df); Ante Verzotti(av); Ljubaznošću Odsjeka za povijest hrvatskoga kazališta hazu / Courtesy of the Department of History of Croatian Theater hazu (Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts) (pk) Vera Grimmer portreti portraits Damil Kalogjera

Razgovarali u Dubrovniku 15. rujna 2015. Interviewed in Dubrovnik on 15 September 2015

¶ Grande dame hrvatske i europske likovne scene, Jagoda ¶ The Grande damme of the Croatian and European visual art Buić, od početaka svog rada do danas teži osvajanju novih scene, Jagoda Buić has aspired to conquering new fields since područja kako u kostimografiji i scenografiji tako prije svega the beginning of her work until present time, in costume design i u umjetnosti tapiserije. Ona je tapiseriju oslobodila dvo- and scenography, as well as primarily, in the art of tapestry. She dimenzionalnosti i dala joj značenje skulpture. Njene tapi- has freed tapestry from two-dimensional aspect and bestowed serije, izlagane u važnim europskim i američkim muzejima, it with the meaning of sculpture. Her tapestries, exhibited in posjeduju primarne, arhetipske kvalitete, vjerojatno i zbog significant European and American museums possess primary, povezanosti s radom tradicionalnih tkalji iz ruralnih sredina. archetypal qualities, which is also probably because of their Najjačim formativnim utjecajem sama smatra zagrebačku connectedness with the work of traditional weavers from rural umjetničku scenu kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih godina – vrijeme areas. She believes that the strongest formative influence was neobično živog i kreativnog procvata na različitim poljima Zagreb’s art scene of the late 1950s and 1960s, a time of unu- od likovne umjetnosti do teatra i arhitekture. sually vibrant and creative blossoming in different fields, from visual arts to theatre and architecture.

168 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 169 svaki je umjetnik potekao iz svoga terena, ima korijene u svojoj Nikad nisam radila kostime, zemlji i ti će ga korijeni oformiti. Međutim, on će se nekim dru- gim svojim svojstvima staviti u kontekst koji je međunarodno radila sam likove. Mene zanima značajan. Rano sam shvatila da francuska moderna tapiserija čovjek u tom kostimu. Nekad ni po čemu nije moderna osim što kopira moderno slikarstvo. Tada je Marie Cuttoli bila prva, priznat je bio i Jean Lurçat, cijela glumac ponese kostim, a češće jedna sjajna ekipa koja je imala velike privilegije. Francuzi nisu kostim ponese glumca htjeli odustati od svoje tradicije koju su preuzeli od Flamanaca i ulagali su velika sredstva u atelje u Aubussonu i Gobelins u Parizu. Ne može se jednim likovnim sredstvom prezentirati I have never designed costumes, I have neki drugi likovni događaj, a to znači da nešto što je tkano ne može biti prezentirano slikom. Tkanje ima svoju materijanu created characters. I’m interested in podsvijest i svoju strukturiranu svijest. the person in costume. Sometimes the ORIS — Napravili ste iskorak u razvoju tapiserije, otvorili ste neke nove poglede i metode. Ustvari oslobodili ste tapi- actor wears the costume and, more seriju plošnosti i prenijeli je u trodimenzionalnu strukturu. often, the costume wears the actor Možete li možda naći neke paralele iz toga doba kada ste Vi to radili istodobno s poljskom umjetnicom Magdalenom Abakanowicz ne znajući jedna za drugu? Iako mislim da je ona po umjetničkoj ekspresiji potpuno drugačija od Vaše kre- ativnosti. ¶ jagoda buić — Ona i ja smo počele zajedno, to su oni sretni trenutci kad se inovatori nađu kao prijatelji uz čašu vina i vjeruju u svoje ideale. Tu je bila i grupa Čeha; ORIS — Intervju bih započela jednim dojmljivim citatom ORIS — I would like to start the interview with an impressive naravno da je među Poljacima najistaknutija bila Magdalena his words: If you want to be original, return to your sources. Tonka Maroevića: Režiseri su se obraćali Jagodi Buić kad je quote by Tonko Maroević: Directors used to come to Jagoda Abakanowicz s kojom sam u nekoliko navrata i izlagala. To There is no international artist; every artist comes from his trebalo evocirati epsku prošlost, elementarne grčke prizore, Buić when the epic past, elementary Greek scenes, Celtic su oni zlatni veseli počeci puni entuzijazma. To se u svijetu land and has roots in the country that has shaped him. He keltske ili slavenske priče, kad je trebalo uroniti u ishodište or Slavic stories were to be evoked, when the origin of the zvalo Slavenski val, a na vrhu njega bile smo Magdalena i ja, will, however, place himself in an internationally significant mita, zagrabiti s izvora i ukazati na ono primarno, prvotno. myth, taken from the source, was to be explored and when koje smo poslije svaka krenule svojim individualnim putem, context using some other instruments. I realised early on that ¶ jagoda buić — Podsjetili ste me na vrijeme kada sam kao the elementary or original was to be presented. ¶ jagoda ali smo se u istom trenutku zaista našle na čelu avangarde i French modern tapestry had no modern qualities other than vrlo mlada imala sreću raditi repertoar mitske prirode – stje- buić — You reminded me of the time when I was very young to je urodilo lijepim prijateljstvom. Ona je apsolutno dostojna the fact that they copied modern painting. Marie Cuttoli was cajem okolnosti na festivalima s klasičnim repertoarom – što and lucky to work with the mythical repertoire and, by force svoje poljske nacije koja je iza nje stajala u punom smislu te the first, Jean Lurçat was also important: an entire brilliant je pogodovalo mom afinitetu prema kretanju od izvora. To of circumstances, classical repertoire of festivals, which was in riječi, što se ne bi moglo reći za mene. Kako Francuzi nisu team that had great privileges. The French did not want to me zapravo karakterizira u svakom radu. U najbanalnijem accord with my inclination towards starting from the source. It htjeli izgubiti svoj prestiž u modermoj tapiseriji – makar se i break with the tradition they had taken over from the Flemish crtežu volim doći do dna, raditi kao da ničega nije bilo prije. actually defines me in every work. In the most basic drawing I ne slagali – dali su mi mogućnost da imam svoj atelje, svoju and they invested a lot of money in the studio in Aubusson Kad mislim o Grcima, uvijek pomislim koliko su bili genijalni, like to get to the core, to work as if there were nothing before. školu za mlade studente, da izlažem u francuskim muzejima, and Gobelins School in Paris. A means of art cannot be used to jer prije njih nije bilo Grka. Ima jedan prekrasan citat Jure When I think of the Greeks, I always think how brilliant they a počelo je to s Muzejom grada Pariza 1975. godine. Tada present another art form, which means that something that is Kaštelana koji je godinama bio moto svih mojih nastojanja. I were because there were no Greeks before them. There is a sam prvi put izložila svoje ambijentalne kompozicije. Iza sebe woven cannot be presented by painting. Fabric has its material Tonko i Jure bili su moji bliski prijatelji, potekli s istog terena, beautiful quote by Jure Kaštelan which was the motto of all my sam imala dosta dugo iskustvo scenografije na otvorenim subconsciousness and structured consciousness. iste zemlje i kamena. Vrlo sam ponosna da su obojica znali to efforts for years. Tonko and Jure were both my close friends, prostorima pa sam kreirala taj novi prostorni koncept kojem ORIS — You have made a breakthrough in the development prepoznati u meni. they came from the same land, the same soil and stone. I am sam težila. of tapestry and presented some new views and methods. ORIS — Ovaj labirint, mračan od svjetlosti, ruka koja ostavlja very proud that they both saw it in me. ORIS — Može se reći da Vaši skulpturalni tapiserijski ambi- You have actually freed tapestry of its flatness and trans- zapis pretvarajući vrijeme u oblik. Ovaj citat Jure Kaštelana ORIS — This labyrinth, dark form the light, the hand which jenti pomalo u toj svojoj arhetipičnosti i svečanosti gotovo formed it into a three-dimensional structure. Can you maybe također ukazuje na osobitosti i na primarnost Vašeg rada. documents by turning time into a shape. This quote by Jure podsjećaju na antički teatar i nije, kao što ste već rekli, slu- draw some parallels from the period when you were creating ¶ jagoda buić — Kaštelan me tim tekstom unaprijed odre- Kaštelan also illustrates the distinctive features and basic čajno da je Vaš život u teatru vezan za antiku. Ako smijem simultaneously with the Polish artist Magdalena Abakano- dio. Jako sam ponosna da sam mogla inspirirati takav stih. elements of your work. ¶ jagoda buić — With this text izreći svoje osobno iskustvo, još mi je uvijek u sjećanju, kao wicz, when neither of you knew of each other’s existence? Gaudi me potaknuo jednim svojim citatom: Ako hoćeš biti Kaštelan defined me in advance. I am very proud to have jedan od najsnažnijih teatarskih doživljaja, predstava Edip iz I think that her art expression is completely different from izvoran, vrati se izvorima. Ne postoji internacionalni umjetnik, inspired him to write such a line. Gaudi encouraged me with 1964. u gradskom dramskom kazalištu Gavella od 1970., u your creative work, though. ¶ jagoda buić — We began

170 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 171 Sofoklo, Kralj Edip, lijepi eksperiment koji se više nije ponovio. Danas su ti kostimi William Gradsko dramsko – našla sam ih negdje na dnu magazina Ljetnih igara – zabo- Shakespeare, kazalište Gavella, Hamlet, Zagreb, redatelj ravljeni. No, spasila sam ih i sada su razasuti po muzejima. Dubrovačke ljetne Dino Radojević, Jedan u Salzburgu, Veneciji itd. igre, redatelj kostimografkinja ORIS — Spomenuli ste prelje sa Sandžaka. Bio je to jedan vrlo Dino Radojević, Jagoda Buić, 1963. kostimografkinja specifičan način rada kojem ste Vi pristupili. Je li u toj suradnji Jagoda Buić, 1974. Sophocles, Oedipus bilo izvjesne uzajamnosti u smislu inovacije u tehnici tkanja? the King, Gavella ¶ jagoda buić — U prvom redu, one su tkale kao njihove William Drama Theatre, Shakespeare, Zagreb, directed prabake. Počele su tkati s 8 godina. Tkale su cijelu mladost, Hamlet, Dubrovnik by Dino Radojević, u vrijeme kad sam ja učila svirati klavir. Kad smo se zajedno Summer Festival, costume design by našle dogodio se jedan sretan sraz. Ja sam vjerovala njima, a directed by Jagoda Buić, 1963 Dino Radojević, one meni. I to je potpuno neopterećeno, s puno ljubavi i entu- costume design by zijazma, dovelo do uzbudljivih rezultata. Pešterska visoravan Jagoda Buić, 1974 nalazi se na tromeđi između Bosne, Srbije i Crne Gore. Kako (jb) bi se to lijepo reklo: In the middle of nowhere. Jednako je sati potrebno iz Sarajeva, Dubrovnika i Beograda da bi se došlo do tamo. Ja sam se devet sati drndala u autobusima s košarama i kokošima nad glavom. S njima sam radila na 20 stupnjeva ispod nule. Crtala sam na ledu jer lakše je crtati na ledu nego na snijegu. To je ipak dovelo do vrlo lijepih rezultata koji su nažalost u vihoru ovog prošlog rata nestali. S nekima od tkalja još sam uvijek u kontaktu i vrlo sam im zahvalna. Nakon moje avanture u tapiseriji i tkanju prešla sam u novi medij – papir. (jb) (pk) Papir je pametan, podatan, svejedno je li kutija od ambalaže režiji Dine Radojevića, gdje su Vaši kostimi bili itekako nosi- together; those were the happy times when innovators used ili najfiniji japanski papir. accidental that your life in the theatre is connected with telj predstave, uz one prekrasne glumce na pozornici (Tonko to meet as friends and shared their beliefs over a glass of wine. ORIS — Svoje radove na papiru pokazali ste u Zagrebu u Glip- antiquity. If I may, I would like to share one of my most pow- Lonza kao Edip i Vjera Žagar Nardelli kao Jokasta). Kostimi There was also a group of Czechs and Magdalena Abakanow- toteci 2008., a izložba je nosila naziv Carta canta. ¶ jagoda erful theatrical experiences with you – I still remember the su podsjećali na arhajske figure s naborima, onda kada ljud- icz was, naturally, the most distinguished among the Polish. buić — Prvo je bila u Sarajevu u Skenderiji, pa je onda došla play Oedipus the King at the Zagreb Drama Theatre1 in 1964, ska figura izlazi iz stupa i postaje čovjek. Ali, također, sud- I used to exhibit my work with her – there were those happy u Gliptoteku. Izuzetno lijepi prostori u Gliptoteci dali su mi and directed by Dino Radojević. Your costumes carried the bina likova već je bila predodređena i kolorizmom. ¶ jagoda beginnings full of enthusiasm, the period called the Slavic hrabrost i impuls da nastavim. Za mene je to bio eksperiment, play and there were these beautiful actors on stage (Tonko buić — Vrlo ste me, mogu reći, potresli vašim sjećanjem na wave in the world. Magdalena and I were on top, at the same ali kada sam ušla u dijalog s tim prostorom onda se taj dijalog Lonza as Oedipus and Vjera Žagar Nardelli as Jocasta). The Edipa u dramskom kazalištu čega se ja više gotovo ne sjećam time we were at the head of the avant-garde, which resulted nastavio i u drugim prostorima. Sada sam u svom ateljeu u Pro- costumes evoked archaic representations of human figures i jako mi je drago vidjeti da je to ostalo u sjećanju. Znači nisam in a warm friendship. Later on, each of us followed our own vansi ostavila pet kolaža velikog formata vezanih za teme koje – the figures would resemble columns and afterwards they radila uzalud. Znate, u teatru čovjek uvijek ima osjećaj da je sve path. She is absolutely worthy of the acclaim of the Polish me bole. Jedan kolaž zove se Lampedusa, drugi Migracija, treći would take human forms. Also, the colours defined the des- tako efemerno. Kad bi se zastor spustio nakon premijere, uvijek nation. They stood behind her in the full sense of the word, se zove Bijeg i još jedan se zove Zmaj, vezano za tehniku kojom tiny of the characters. ¶ jagoda buić — Your words about bih došla vrlo žalosna na praznu scenu te bih pred otvorenim which cannot be said about me. The French did not want to djeca prave zmajeve. Naravno, čovjek se ne može odvojiti od the Oedipus in the Drama Theatre have moved me because I zastorom i pred praznim gledalištem rekla: Tako, završila se lose their prestige in modern tapestry and, even though they onoga što se oko njega događa i što ga dira. Ako ima dušu i don’t remember the play anymore and I’m very happy to hear još jedna euforija. Zatvorio se još jedan krug. Never more! disagreed with me, they gave me the opportunity to have my srce ne mogu ga ne dirnuti te ruke koje se pružaju iz vode koja that it has remained etched in your memory. It means that I Nikad nisam radila kostime, radila sam likove. Mene zanima own studio, school for young students and to hold exhibitions tako indiferentno preko njih prelazi. haven’t been working in vain. When you work in the theatre, čovjek u tom kostimu. Nekad glumac ponese kostim, a češće in French museums. This started in the Museum of the City of ORIS — Školovali ste se na Akademiji za primijenjenu umjet- you always have the feeling that everything is so ephemeral. kostim ponese glumca. Primjer toga bili su kostimi za pred- Paris in 1975, when I exhibited my ambient compositions for nost u Beču. Kako vidite odnos između primijenjene i tzv. When the curtain came down after the premiere, I always stavu Hamlet na Lovrijencu 1974. g. Imala sam, moram reći, the first time. I had long experience of stage design in open čiste umjetnosti? ¶ jagoda buić — Ja sam đak u to vrijeme approached the empty stage in front of the curtain, look at puno hrabrosti, da si prvi put u teatru priuštimo luksuz da spaces so I designed this new spatial concept I had always slavnog profesora Otta Niedermosera na Odjelu za interijer. the empty seats and say: Yet another wave of euphoria has glumci na sebi nose rukom tkane kostime. To su radile moje aspired to create. Tada se vodio rat između studenata na Schillerplatzu 8 (Aka- died down. Another cycle has finished. Never more! I have tkalje na Pešterskoj visoravni, u Sjenici. Glumce sam pustila ORIS — It can be said that your sculptural tapestry atmos- demija likovnih umjetnosti) i Stubenringu 2 (Akademija za never designed costumes, I have always created characters. da hodaju bosi po toplom kamenu. Bili su gotovo bez šminke, pheres, archetypical and solemn, almost remind us of primijenjenu umjetnost). To je bio rat i diskusija. Umjetnost da se ne bi pokvarilo sunce na licima. To je bio jedan izuzetno the ancient theatre and, as you have mentioned, it is not je umjetnost. Nema primijenjene i neprimijenjene. Samo što 1 Gavella Drama Theatre since 1970

172 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 173 Pešterska visoravan, Ja sam proizvod tog Zagreba iz Srbija, 1970. kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih. Imala sam Pešter Plateau, izuzetnu sreću da u tome Serbia, 1970 sudjelujem kao đak i suradnik (jb) I was thus a product of such Zagreb in the late 1950s and 1960s; I was very fortunate to participate in this life as a student and an associate

them at the bottom of the storehouse of the Dubrovnik Sum- Zajednički rad mer Festival. I saved them and now they are exhibited in vari- na tapiseriji Crni strukturirani ous museums – in Salzburg, Venice, etc. volumen, Pešterska ORIS — You have mentioned weavers from the Sandžak visoravan, Srbija, region. It was a very specific method of work you decided to 1970. employ. Was there any conscious exchange of ideas, regard- Collective work on ing the innovations in the weaving technique? ¶ jagoda the Black Structured buić — First, they used to weave like their grandmothers. Volume tapestry, Pešter plateau, They began weaving when they were eight. At the time when Serbia, 1970 I was learning how to play the piano, they had already spent their whole youth weaving. When we met, we were a winning (jb) combination. I believed them and they believed me. With a lot of love and enthusiasm and under no pressure our coopera- tion produced exciting results. The Pešter Plateau is situated between Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro; in the middle of nowhere, figuratively speaking. It takes the same amount je primijenjena umjetnost, ako želi biti umjetnost, u težem I’m interested in the human figure in costume. Sometimes the stanovali na splitskoj rivi. Taj lijepi ambijent sa slikama hrvat- of time to reach it from Sarajevo, Dubrovnik and Belgrade. položaju nego ova takozvana slobodna, zato što ona mora actor wears the costume and, more often, the costume wears ske moderne koje su mom ocu bile poklanjane s ljubavlju I used to travel for nine hours by bus – with baskets and poštovati zakonitosti praktične primjene. the actor. For example, the costumes for Hamlet, which was bio je u kući Katalinić na splitskom lukobranu. Jednog dana chickens over my head – to reach them and work with them ORIS — Govorimo o procesu Vaše edukacije koji je de facto performed at Fort Lovrijenac in 1974, can illustrate this well. I zatresao se svijet pred našim prozorima, pale su bombe i at 20 degrees below zero. I used to draw on ice because it počeo u Zagrebu, ali ustvari i puno prije. Počeo je u Vašoj have to say that it was really brave of me to ask of the theatre kada sam otvorila oči bio je Drugi svjetski rat, bilo je to 6. was easier to draw on ice than on snow. We achieved some roditeljskoj kući gdje ste imali priliku susresti se s glazbenom to afford the luxury of hand-woven costumes for the actors. travnja 1941. Moja edukacija je išla kroz Drugi svjetski rat beautiful results which, unfortunately, disappeared in the i likovnom umjetnošću. Zatim u Zagrebu na Akademiji primi- My weavers on the Pešter Plateau, in the Sjenica area, cre- kada sam se suočila sa životom, sa smrću, s pravim stvarima horrors of the last war. I still keep in touch with some of the jenjene umjetnosti. ¶ jagoda buić — Proces moje edukacije ated them. The actors were barefoot on warm stones. They i s neumitnim vrijednostima koje se vjerojatno odražavaju na weavers and am very grateful to them. After my adventure bio je, naravno, vrlo uzbudljiv. Educirana sam od austrijske i wore almost no make-up so the sun on their faces remained ono mitsko o čemu smo razgovarali. Edukacija nije bila škol- with the tapestry and weaving, I found a new medium – francuske guvernante, baleta, škole, poduke u klaviru, dakle unspoilt. It was an extremely nice experiment that was never ska koliko je nastajala u životnoj opasnosti. U našoj kući za paper. Paper is smart and supple, whether it is just a box or od svega onog što čini jedno idilično djetinjstvo. Tada smo carried out again. These costumes are forgotten today; I found vrijeme policijskog sata igrali su se Glembajevi. Moja mama the finest Japanese paper.

174 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 175 je i dalje imala svoga Leopardija na noćnom ormariću i dalje se po Danteu računalo vrijeme. Fašisti u crnim košuljama tražili su i od mene da pozdravim romanamente, a ja nisam. Vratili su me natrag i zatražili ponovno, no ja nisam digla ruku. Nakon što sam treći put odbila, izbacili su me iz svih škola. Nisam bila svjesna da bi mi oca mogli strijeljati, jer je meni tada bio važniji moj ponos nego opasnost. Onda je došlo oslobođenje i svi smo bili jako sretni. Tada mi je direk- torica škole u uniformi jednog dana rekla: Slušaj ti, Buić, ti nisi upisana u Savez omladine. Ja kažem: Je li to dobrovoljno? Ona kaže: Naravno! Sloboda, dobrovoljno… Ja kažem: Vidite, onda sam Vam ja jedina mogućnost da dokažete da je to dobrovoljno. I onda opet van iz svih škola. Tako sam dospjela u Dubrovnik. Dolazila sam jednim drugim vjetrom, iz drugog grada i slobodnijeg mentaliteta. Vjerojatno je to zračilo iz mog nastupa i uvjetovalo moj školski uspjeh. Moja nepot- puna edukacija upotpunila se time što sam donosila nešto na svojim krilima čega tamo gdje sam doletila još nije bilo. U Dubrovnik sam došla iz Splita, a u Beč iz Rima koji je 50-ih godina bio centar zbivanja. ORIS — To je bilo zapravo zlatno doba. Godine 1951. Fellini radi filmI Vitelloni, 1953. La Stradu. ¶ jagoda buić — Tako je. Ja sam ga gledala u kavanama. I prema tome sam u Beč na krilima donijela taj vjetar. ORIS — Je li taj bečki milje, kad ste studirali, bio u neku ruku za vas poticajan? Tada je, što se teatra tiče, bilo podrumskih, tzv. Kellertheatera, dok je Burgtheater još bio dosta zapra- šen; tek se zapravo 80-ih godina dolaskom Clausa Peymanna teatar oslobodio i postao avangardan i moderan. ¶ jagoda buić — Tada je Friedrich Gulda, svjetski pijanist, svake večeri svirao u jednom malom lokalu koji se zvao Strohkoffer. ORIS — Strohkoffer je tada bio sastajalište avangarde.

¶ jagoda buić — Da, išli smo u Strohkoffer svaku večer, ORIS — You presented your works in paper at the exhibition Migracije, 2015., da bih paralelno sa Strohkofferom prisustvovala koncertima titled Carta canta organised at the Glyptotheque of Zagreb kolaž, detalj

¶ koje su Karajan i Furtwängler, u svojoj svemirskoj svađi, svirali in 2008. jagoda buić — They were first exhibited at the Migrations, 2015., u razmaku od 15 dana, isti repertoar. Svi moji kolege dolazili Skenderija Centre in Sarajevo. The rooms in the Glyptotheque collage, detail su s partiturama. Ja ne, ja sam to po splitski, bez partitura. that are extremely beautiful gave me the courage and impulse (jb) Jedne večeri imala sam u džepu tek jedan šiling pa je trebalo to carry on. It was an experiment for me, but when I engaged in birati hoću li pojesti Gulaschsuppe ili ići u Brahms-Saal. I u a dialogue with the rooms, it also continued elsewhere. I have tom prostoru s najboljom akustikom u Beču tada je zazvučao just left five huge collages at my studio in Provence, which bas mladog Čangalovića. To je bilo vrijeme prave edukacije! are related to the topics that affect me. One collage is called ORIS — Da se još vratimo na tapiseriju. Kako se određujete Lampedusa, another Migration, then Escape, and finally Dragon prema rodnoj definiciji tapiserije u smislu da ona po svojoj which refers to the technique children use when they make mekoći i gipkosti predstavlja žensko počelo? Tradicija kazuje dragons. It is not possible to distance yourself from the events Ruža vjetrova, Split, da Arijadnina nit spašava Tezeja, Penelopa tka i oblaže svoju around you; they have to affect you. If you have a heart and Hrvatska, 1987. bračnu postelju, Parke predu sudbinu itd. Je li Vam bliska a soul, you cannot remain unaffected by the scenes of hands The Wind Rose, Split, (jb) ta ženska određenost tapiserijske umjetnosti? ¶ jagoda reaching out of water that overwhelms them so callously. Croatia, 1987

176 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 177 ORIS — You went to the Academy of Applied Arts in Vienna. What is your view on the relation between applied and so- called pure art? ¶ jagoda buić — I was a student of the then famous professor Otto Niedermoser at the Department of Interior Design. Back then there was a war between students from Schillerplatz 8 (Academy of Fine Arts) and Stubenring 2 (Academy of Applied Arts). It was a war and discussion. Art is art. There is no applied or non-applied art. Applied art is, of course, in a far more difficult position than this so-called free art because it has to obey the rules of practical application. ORIS — We have been talking about the process of your education which, in fact, started in Zagreb, but had actually begun much earlier. It began in your parents’ home, where you had the opportunity to come into contact with music and art. Then it continued in Zagreb, at the Academy of Applied Arts. ¶ jagoda buić — The process of my education was, of course, very exciting. I had Austrian and French governesses, took ballet and piano lessons, went to school… I had an idyl- lic childhood. Back then we lived at the Riva waterfront in the city of Split. A pleasant ambience, which was created by the paintings from the Croatian Modernism that had been given to my father with love, dominated the Katalinić house at the pier of the city of Split. Then, one day, the world shook before our eyes, the bombs fell and when I opened my eyes, there was the Second World War; it began on 6th April 1941. I actually received education during the Second World War – when I was faced with life, death, real problems and indis- putable values, which are probably reflected in the mythical that we have already discussed. My education continued in life-threatening circumstances. The play Glembajevi was per- formed during the curfew. My mother still had her Leopardi on her bedside table and time was set by Dante. The fascist Blackshirts told me to salute romanamente but I did not do it. They told me again to do it, but I never raised my hand. After I had rejected to raise my hand for the third time, they expelled me from all schools. I was not aware of the fact that my father could have been shot – back then my pride was more important to me than imminent danger. Then libera- tion came and we were all exhilarated. One day the school

Strukturalni triptih, buić — Nema nikakve sumnje, neka su zanimanja vezana uz manager told me: Listen, Buić girl, you are not registered with A sve ideologije, misli i velike All the ideologies could only have been 49. Venecijanski 1965., tapiserija žensko biće. Postoje trajanja koja su vezana za žensku sudbinu the Young Socialist League of Yugoslavia. I asked her: Is it bijenale, Venecija, Italija, 2001.

Structural Triptych, i nije nimalo čudno da je tkanje koje je vezano za ognjište imalo voluntary? She replied: Of course! Then I said: I am your only aktivnosti išle su samo uz developed, expressed and carried out

1965, tapestry i svoje trajanje koje isto pripada ženskoj sudbini. opportunity to prove it then. And I was expelled again from all otpor, jer se tada razvijala with resistance because back then the 49th Venice ORIS — Zagreb je 50-ih i 60-ih godina imao živu avangar- schools and came to Dubrovnik. I came with a different wind, Biennial, Venice, (bb) Italy, 2001 dnu scenu, kako u teatru tako i u drugim umjetnostima. U from a different town and a more open mentality. It was prob- nužna energija da nešto postane necessary energy was generated to 60-tim godinama dolazi do osuvremenjivanja klasika, isto ably evident in my approach and it resulted in my success in i intelektualno i stvarno make something intellectual and real (df) tako kostimima i scenografijama, kao i režijom. To je doba school. My incomplete education was always supplemented

178 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 179

Ranjeni golub II., velikih redatelja, počevši od Gavelle do njegovih učenika – by something new I would bring to the environment I arrived diskutirajući najopasnije i najuzvišenije probleme suvremene ORIS — Was this milieu in Vienna stimulating for you when Crveni volumeni, 1983., tapiserija, Spaića, Škiljana, Radojevića, Violića, Para itd. Doba avangarde in. I came to Dubrovnik from Split, to Vienna from Rome, arhitekture i filozofije, s Bernardijem i Kristlom. Svim tim raz- you were a student? Back then there were basement theatres, 1980., tapiserija detalj

i u likovnoj umjetnosti i arhitekturi, osobito se to odnosilo which was the centre of activities in the 1950s. govorima bila sam prisutna više kao slušatelj i maskota. Cijeli so-called Kellertheater, and the Burgtheater was still rather Red Volumes,

Wounded Dove na grupu Exat 51, koja je svojom integrativnom misli sigurno ORIS — It was a golden age. In 1951 Fellini made I Vitelloni taj Zagreb kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih bio je čista sreća. To je bilo dusty – only in the 1980s, when Claus Peymann arrived, 1980, tapestry II, 1983, tapestry, privukla i Vašu pažnju. ¶ jagoda buić — Nije samo privukla and he made La Strada in 1953. ¶ jagoda buić — That’s kristaliziranje jedne kulturne sredine koja je procvala poslije theatre became free and avant-garde and modern. ¶ jagoda detail (bb) pažnju, nego sam bila i dio tih događanja. Ne mogu reći da sam right. I have seen Fellini in cafes. Therefore, I brought this new Drugog svjetskog rata na najbolji mogući način. Ne zato što je buić — Friedrich Gulda, a world-famous pianist, used to play (bb) sudjelovala u brainstormu kad su Radić i Richter lomili koplja wind to Vienna with me. bila na nivou čitave Europe, već zato što je po svojoj solidnosti every night in a small club called Strohkoffer.

180 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 181 Ne može se jednim likovnim ORIS — Strohkoffer was the meeting place for the avant- Žar-ptica garde. ¶ jagoda buić — Yes, we used to go to Strohkoffer – homage Stravinskom, sredstvom prezentirati neki every evening. I also used to visit concerts where Karajan and 1977., tapiserija drugi likovni događaj, a to znači Furtwängler, in their epic competition, played the same rep- ertoire over the course of fifteen days. All my colleagues came Firebird – hommage to da nešto što je tkano ne može biti with sheet music, but not me, I behaved in the manner that Stravinsky, prezentirano slikom is typical of those from the city of Split, and arrived without 1977, tapestry scores. One evening I had only one schilling in my pocket and I (jb) had to choose between eating Gulaschsuppe and going to the A means of art cannot be Brahms-Saal. At that time the bass of the young Čangalović resonated through this venue that has the best acoustics in used to present another art Vienna. This was the time of real education! form, which means that ORIS — Let’s go back to the tapestry. What is your posi- tion on the gender definition of tapestry in the sense that something that is woven cannot it, according to its softness and suppleness, represents a be presented by painting female element? The tradition says that Ariadne’s thread saves Theseus, Penelope weaves and covers her bed, Parcae weaves destiny, etc. Is this woman’s predetermination for the art of tapestry close to you? ¶ jagoda buić — There is no doubt that some professions are associated with females. There are continuations that are linked to women’s destiny and it is no wonder that weaving, which was connected i klasičnoj naobrazbi, po ljudima koji su bili izuzetno pametni, with the fireplace, had its continuation that also belongs to kao što su Richter, Bernardi, Radić i to društvo, bila na vrhu. Isto women’s destiny. se događalo u teatru, djelovanje ove grupe redatelja koje ste ORIS — In the 1950s and 1960s Zagreb had a lively avant- spomenuli. Dakle, ja sam proizvod tog Zagreba. Naravno, imala garde scene – in the theatre and other arts. The year of 1960 sam izuzetnu sreću da u tome sudjelujem kao đak i suradnik. saw the beginning of a trend towards contemporary adap- ORIS — I muza. ¶ jagoda buić — Kadikad. tations of classical antiquity plays, costumes, stage design ORIS — Neka vrsta moderne Cvijete Zuzorić. ¶ jagoda and direction. It was the age of great directors, beginning buić — Zamislite, skoro imate pravo, mene su u gimnaziji u with Gavella and his students: Spaić, Škiljan, Radojević, Violić, Dubrovniku zvali Cvijeta. Dakle, na našoj Akademiji za primi- Paar, etc. The age of the avant-garde in art and architecture jenjenu umjetnost profesori su bili Radovani, Richter, Branka was especially connected with the group Exat 51, which must Hegedušić, Tomašević. To je jedna ekipa koja bi svugdje na have caught your attention also with their integrative ideas. dovoljno kultivirana i nisu vidjeli svrhu akademije za primije- product of such Zagreb; of course, I was very fortunate to svijetu bila prvorazredna. Bili smo sjajni entuzijasti, krasni ¶ jagoda buić — It did more than just catch my attention; I njene umjetnosti. Postojala je zanatska škola, obrtnička škola participate in this life as a student and an associate. studenti koji su kasarnu, sadašnje Klovićeve dvore, pretvorili was a part of those events. I cannot say that I participated in u svim gradovima. Prema tome nije još bilo potrebe za nama ORIS — And the muse. ¶ jagoda buić — Sometimes. u našu akademiju. Potreban je veliki entuzijazam da se bace Radić and Richter’s heated discussions with Bernardi, Kristl… sa strane industrije. ORIS — A kind of contemporary Cvijeta Zuzorić. ¶ jagoda vojni kreveti sa svim njihovim stanarima, da se oliče zidovi on most dangerous and most sublime problems of modern ORIS — Sva ta avangardna kretanja zapravo su bila kretanja buić — You are almost right – I used to be called Cvijeta kasarne i da tu zaživi jedna sjajna škola. Nikada neću shvatiti architecture and philosophy. I was involved in those discus- unatoč. Jer ipak je to bilo u okviru jednog sistema s kojim ta in the Gymnasium of Dubrovnik. At our Academy of Applied zašto se to ukinulo. Osim što su nam profesori bili izvanredni, sions more as a listener and the mascot. I was so lucky to kretanja nisu bila u skladu. ¶ jagoda buić — Išlo se uzvodno, Arts, Radovani, Richter, Branka Hegedušić, Tomašević… were naša studentska ekipa bila je odlična: Riba Lončarić, Lipovac, have lived in Zagreb in the late 1950s and 1960s. A cultural jer ako ideš nizvodno to je kao da nisi išao. A sve ideologije, our professors. It was a team that would be first-class any- Bourek. I na tom nivou bili su manje-više svi; Jakić, Pejaković. environment that was flourishing after the Second World misli i velike aktivnosti išle su samo uz otpor, jer se tada razvi- where in the world. We were great enthusiasts, students that Ta se akademija poslije dvije godine ukinula. Nikada nismo pre- War was represented by the best. Not because it was on jala nužna energija da nešto postane i intelektualno i stvarno, turned the barracks, now the Klovićevi dvori Gallery, into our žalili i shvatili zašto. Nakon toga sam otišla u Beč. the same level as the whole of Europe, but because it was a ne da ostane samo na razini pragmatičnog življenja. Vratila Academy. It takes immense enthusiasm to throw out military ORIS — Što mislite zašto se ukinula? S takvim ljudima? on top – judging by its classical and quality education and sam se sa završenom akademijom iz Beča i nije mi palo na beds with all its tenants, to paint the walls of the barracks and Politički razlog? ¶ jagoda buić — Prije bih rekla da je razlog extremely smart individuals, such as Richter, Bernardi, Radić pamet da mogu dobiti namještenje, atelje. Tako da sam ušla u create an exceptional school. I will never understand why it bio nerazumijevanje. Onu drugu, likovnu akademiju vodili su and others. This was the same in the theatre – activities of teatar i tu našla svoj predivni svijet. Zamislite, sve to nije bilo was closed down. We had extraordinary professors and made ovi veliki privilegirani državni umjetnici, a naša sredina nije bila the group of directors you have mentioned. I was thus a stvarno, nego je sve bilo izmišljotina. a great student team as well: Riba Lončarić, Lipovac, Bourek.

182 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 183 More or less, all of the students were on the same level. Jakić, Pejaković. After two years, the Academy was closed down. We have never gotten over this fact or understood why it was done. Afterwards, I went to Vienna. ORIS — Why do you think it was closed down when it had such individuals? Was this decision politically motivated? ¶ jagoda buić — I’d rather say it was because there was no understanding. The other Academy, the Academy of Fine Arts, was managed by privileged state artists and our environment was not cultured enough to understand the purpose of the Academy of Applied Arts. Every town had a vocational school, a school of crafts. From the viewpoint of the industry, there- fore, there was no need for us. ORIS — All these avant-garde movements were actually activities undertaken in spite of something – they existed within a system they were not in accord with. ¶ jagoda buić — People swam against the tide back then because anything else would have seemed like nothing at all. All the ideologies could only have been developed, thoughts could only have been expressed and activities could only have been carried out with resistance because back then the necessary energy was generated to make something intellectual and Skica, 1984. Skica, 1986. real, and not to keep it merely pragmatic. Having graduated Sketch, 1984 from the Academy in Vienna, I came back and never thought Sketch, 1986 about taking up a position or a studio. I came to the theatre (jb) (jb) and found my beautiful world there. Fancy that – it was not ORIS — Da, ali izmišljotina zapravo istinitija od života. real, but a lie. rijeka ponornica; negdje teče i postoji. Mi je naravno tamo ne called art, really exists. It finds its way as a subterranean river ¶ jagoda buić — Jasno. Kada je Šerbedžija ovog ljeta govo- ORIS — Yes, but a lie more true than the life itself. ¶ jagoda tražimo jer nije na glavnim putovima, ali ne možemo reći da – it flows and exists somewhere. Naturally, we do not look rio Shakespeareov To be, or not to be, smatrala sam kako je u buić — Of course. When Šerbedžija recited Shakespeare’s To umjetnosti više nema. for it there because it is not on the main road, but we cannot tih 36 godina, otkad ga je Rade zadnji put izgovorio na Lovri- be, or not to be this summer, I felt as if the performance had ORIS — I na splitskom i na dubrovačkom festivalu radili ste say that there is no art. jencu, taj izričaj sazrio i postao istinitiji. Shakespeare bi bio jako matured and become more true over the course of thirty-six predstave u povijesnim ambijentima. Tražili ste odgovor na ORIS — You did plays in a historical ambience at the Split zadovoljan kad bi ga čuo, jer je u tom izgovorenom genijalnom years since the last time he delivered it at Fort Lovrijenac. izazov kazališta na otvorenom i ugroženu egzistenciju ljud- Summer Festival and Dubrovnik Summer Festival. If I may monologu bilo sadržano 36 godina saznanja i iskustva koje je Shakespeare would have been very satisfied because this bril- skog tijela u autentičnom i monumentalnom arhitektonskom quote you, you were looking for: the answer to the challenge on nama poklonio. liantly recited monologue was enriched with thirty-six years of prostoru, ako Vas mogu citirati. ¶ jagoda buić — Trebalo se of the theatre in the open and the endangered existence of ORIS — Poznata je Vaša sklonost i ljubav prema umjetnicima knowledge and experience Šerbedžija so generously gave us. nametnuti otvorenoj okolini, odnosno arhitekturi koja je vrlo the human body in an authentic and monumental architec- 70-ih i 80-ih godina. ¶ jagoda buić — To su recimo Džamo- ORIS — Your affinity and love for the artists of the 1970s često i postala pozornica zato što je snažna i monumentalna. tural space. ¶ jagoda buić — It was necessary to impose nja, Murtić, Ružić, Gabrijel Stupica, Peđa Milosavljević, Bakić, and 1980s is well known. ¶ jagoda buić — Yes, There were To su obično rimska arhitektura i ponešto grčke. A nekad, your concept upon the open environment or the architecture Bernik, Lubarda. Usudila bih se reći da je Ružić među njima bio Džamonja, Murtić, Ružić, Gabrijel Stupica, Peđa Milosavljević, naravno, i priroda. Sve troje je vrlo snažno i stavlja čovjekovo that has, in most cases, become a stage because it is strong najveći skulptorski talent. Ružić je nosio tako iskonsku vjeru u Bakić, Bernik, Lubarda. I dare say Ružić had the greatest talent tijelo u veliku kušnju. Dakle, glumcu treba pomoći. Vrlo mlada and monumental. Usually it is Roman architecture, sometimes to što je skulptura, zašto i od čega je skulptura. Ja sam htjela for sculpture – he had such a genuine idea of what sculpture sam se našla u toj situaciji sa splitskim Peristilom, a zatim i na Greek. Sometimes, of course, it is nature as well. All three are pokazati svijetu što smo mi bili 80-ih godina. Samo jedna is, why it is made, and what it is made of. I wanted to show Dubrovačkim ljetnim igrama. Potpuno je različita kostimogra- very strong and put the human body to a test. The actor needs zemlja nam je možda mogla konkurirati, a to je bila Španjolska, to the world what we were in the 1980s. There was only one fija na otvorenom od kostimografije na zatvorenom. Kosti- to be helped. I was very young when I was creating stage design s Chillidom i Tàpiesom. country that could have competed with us – it was Spain, mografija na zatvorenom dio je jedne čarolije, dio, nazovimo, in Peristil Square in Split, then also at the Dubrovnik Summer ORIS — Vaš stav prema suvremenim zbivanjima u umjetno- with Chillida and Tàpies. nekakve šminke. Kostimografija na otvorenom traži jedan vrlo Festival. Costume design is completely different in the open sti nije pretjerano pozitivan. ¶ jagoda buić — Ja mislim da ORIS — Your attitude towards contemporary movements in jasan i čist pristup. Kostim mora biti adekvatan, mora izdržati from the one in closed space. Costume design in closed space je kozmički naboj, taj fenomen umjetnosti, konstantan. Taj art is not too positive. ¶ jagoda buić — I think that this cos- konkurenciju monumentalne arhitekture. Osim što pristaje uz is part of the magic, a make-up, so to speak. Costume design in naboj, koji se zove umjetnost, postoji. Ona nalazi svoj put kao mic energy, this phenomenon of art is constant. This energy, arhitekturu mora joj se i suprotstavljati. Dakle, glumcu treba the open requires a clear and pure approach. The costume has

184 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 185

Projekt laguna, Čovjek se ne može odvojiti od to be appropriate and endure the competition from monumen- pomoći na način da ga se suprotstavi okolini, a ne utopi u oko- ORIS — This stubbornness of yours, as you have mentioned, Sunce, pijesak, Venecija, Italija, tal architecture. It has to fit architecture, but also to contrast it. lini koja je presnažna. To je meni bio jedan specifičan izazov i surely motivates your strong desire to bring things to an end. zvuk, 1983., video 2008.

onoga što se oko njega događa The actor needs help in a way that he makes a sharp contrast nadam se da sam u njemu u većini slučajeva uspjela. Tu treba You started with costume design, then continued with stage Sun, Sand, Sound,

Project Lagoon, i što ga dira, ne mogu ga ne with the environment, but then again that he does not blend zaboraviti svaki detalj. Treba se držati linije kostima onoga design and then later, in Richard iii, the play you directed 1983, video Venezia, Italy, in with the environment that is too strong. This was a very vremena, ali treba dati jedan osjećaj da je volumen toga tijela in 1997, you combined the three components. ¶ jagoda 2008 (jb) dirnuti te ruke koje se pružaju specific challenge for me and I hope that I succeeded in most veći nego što ustvari jest. buić — Richard iii was a dream come true. I did it for a great (jb) iz vode koja tako indiferentno cases. You have to forget about details, stick to the line of the ORIS — Uvjetuje li kostim kao takav na neki način i kretanje actor and a friend of mine – Predrag Vušović. I was inspired costume of the time, but also create the impression that the glumca na pozornici? On sigurno mora biti u skladu sa samom by my deep desire for total design. I was raised with the idea preko njih prelazi volume of the body is larger than it really is. režijom, odnosno biti čak i dio te režije. ¶ jagoda buić — Ja that total design was the final goal of all of our artistic and ORIS — Does the costume affect the movement of the actor sam bila dobar suradnik redateljima, zato što sam radila para- applicable aspirations. Everyone was very happy and satisfied It is not possible to distance your- on stage? Costumes have to be adapted to the principle of lelno s njima. Jasno je da je scenski pokret uvjetovan kostimom except for the government. They said that I used the charac- directing or even be part of directing. ¶ jagoda buić — I i obrnuto. Tu je rijetko dolazilo do suradnje kakva je mogla biti. ter of Richard iii to allude to President Tuđman, and the play self from the events around you; was a good collaborator to directors because I worked in par- Nisam se dala time zbuniti, pogotovo jer je mene u to vrijeme was closed down after four performances.Richard iii is maybe they have to affect you. You cannot allel with them. Stage movement is, naturally, conditioned kad sam puno radila na vanjskim scenama nosio mladenački Shakespeare’s most powerful text. It is set in the 14th century by the costume and vice versa. The cooperation was rarely entuzijazam i tvrdoglavost koji me krase još uvijek. and includes the battles and other attractive scenes. I mostly remain unaffected by the scenes of as good as it could have been, but I was not easily confused ORIS — Ta Vaša, kao što kažete, tvrdoglavost, sigurno feel inclined towards the Late Middle Ages, the beginning of hands reaching out of water that because – especially at the time when I worked a lot on the uzrokuje Vašu želju da stvari dovedete do kraja. Tako ste the Renaissance. I managed to do my own total design and it outdoor scenes – I was full of youthful enthusiasm and very počeli s kostimografijom, pa ste došli do scenografije, da bi was exactly with Richard iii. I made an entrance, and achieved overwhelms them so callously stubborn, the qualities I still possess. onda već nešto kasnije u Richardu iii. 1997. godine sve te tri something that satisfied me as well.

186 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 187 Tonči Petrasov Marović, Antigona, kraljica u Tebi, Hrvatsko narodno kazalište u Splitu, redatelj Vlatko Perković, scenografija i kostimografija Jagoda Buić, 1981. Tonči Petrasov Marović, Antigone, the Queen of Thebes, Croatian National Theatre in Split, directed by Vlatko Perković, set and costume design by Jagoda Buić, 1981

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188 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 189 ORIS — Is stage design only the background or an actor in a William Shakespeare, play? ¶ jagoda buić — Definitely an actor. The stage design Rikard III.,Gradsko dramsko kazalište of the play performed in Split, Antigone, the Queen of Thebes, Gavella, Zagreb, written by Tonči Petrasov Marović, consisted of five unfruitful režija, scenografija i elements that had a new layout in each scene. I projected a kostimografija Jagoda Buić, 1997. sky full of variously shaped clouds. Thus the clouds came alive and gave life to this moveable sculpture that created space. William Shakespeare, ORIS — What was the connection between the scene in the Richard III, Gavella Drama Theatre, play Richard iii and the costumes? ¶ jagoda buić — You felt Zagreb, direction, set as if you had been leaving a medieval miniature, like the ones and costume design in incunabula: completely modernised and simplified. I just Jagoda Buić, 1997

can’t stand when a text that is written for a certain period is (jb) transported into a different period because this has become a trend. If you do not dress Oedipus in jeans, you are not mod- ern. What Oedipus gets with these jeans and what the jeans get with Oedipus – I do not know. Therefore, I think that this forceful insistence on a period that a text does not refer to takes away, from the text, everything that this time, mental- ity and morality provide as the meaning of the action itself. ORIS — What was the concept of directing the play Richard iii? ¶ jagoda buić — I did not deal with the concept; I was focused on Shakespeare. I felt sorry for every line I had to

Redateljske skice za Rikarda III. Director’s sketches for Richard III

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Modeli kostima za Rikarda III. Mock-ups of costumes for Richard III

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190 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 191 Nakon moje avanture u tapiseriji i tkanju prešla sam u novi medij – papir. Papir je pametan, podatan, svejedno je li kutija od ambalaže ili najfiniji japanski papir

After my adventure with the tapestry and weaving, I found a new medium – paper. Paper is smart and supple, whether it is just a box or the finest Japanese paper

Izložba Carta komponente ujedinili. ¶ jagoda buić — Richard iii. bio je Canta 2, vrh mojih snova. Radila sam ga zbog jednog velikog glumca i Palača Sponza, Dubrovnik, prijatelja, Predraga Vušovića. Bila sam ponukana svojom dav- Hrvatska, 2013. nom željom za total-dizajnom. Odgojena sam u smislu da je total-dizajn konačni cilj svih naših primijenjenoumjetničkih Carta Canta 2 exhibition, stremljenja. Svi su bili jako sretni i zadovoljni, osim režima. Sponza Palace, Režim je rekao da sam ja Rikardom iii. aludirala na lik predsjed- Dubrovnik, nika Tuđmana te je skinut nakon 4 predstave. Rikard iii. možda Croatia, 2013 je najjači Shakespeareov tekst. Radi se o 14. stoljeću. Ima bitaka (jb) i svega onoga što je scenski neodoljivo. Ja tendiram najviše tom kasnom srednjem vijeku, početku renesanse. Dospjela sam do toga da napravim svoj total-dizajn i to baš s Rikardom iii. Nisam ušla kroz mala vrata, već velika. I napravila nešto što je i mene zadovoljilo. ORIS — Scenografija kao pozadina ili kao akter predstave? ¶ jagoda buić — Svakako akter. Scenografija splitske pred- stave Antigona, kraljica u Tebi Tončija Petrasova Marovića sastojala se od 5 šturih i jednostavnih elemenata koji u svakoj sceni dobivaju novi raspored. Na te šture elemente projicirala sam nebo puno raznoraznih oblaka. Ti su oblaci tako zaživjeli sami i davali život toj pomičnoj skulpturi koja je stvarala prostor. ORIS — Kako je ta scenografija kodRikarda iii. korespondirala s kostimima? ¶ jagoda buić — Imali ste dojam da izlazite iz jedne srednjovjekovne minijature. To su one minijature koje su na inkunabulama, potpuno modernizirane i pojednostav- ljene. Apsolutno ne podnosim kada se po sadašnjoj modi tekst

192 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 193 delete from the texts of the three queens that show the influ- ence of Seneca on Shakespeare. But I followed the principle according to which the audience cannot sit through the play for more than two hours. I also took care of the rhythm of the play. The rhythm expressed the modernity. The intensity of the play was in accord with the specific intensity of living. I often thought that I had been born to be a director. I did not ask for it, of course, and if I had asked, I would not have been given the opportunity. At the time, you had to have glasses and a beard to be taken seriously. I worked with excellent directors: Tanhofer, Gavella, Paro, Spaić, Radojević, Violić… all great directors. I learnt more by being present at their rehearsals than I would have learnt if I had graduated from two academies. ORIS — What costume designers influenced your work? ¶ jagoda buić — There were two great costume designers back then. One was Inga Kostinčer and the other my friend

Diptih, 2012., koji je pisan za jedno vrijeme prenese u drugo vrijeme. Ako ne Boža Košak, who came from Maribor but lived in Rome. She kolaž staviš Edipa u traperice nisi moderan. E sad što Edip dobiva was not a costume designer, but a Picasso of fashion. But she

Diptych, 2012, s trapericama i što traperice dobivaju s Edipom, ja ne znam. did not want to sign anything because she thought it was collage Prema tome smatram da nasilno izguravanje teksta iz vremena inelegant. Her work is thus not known today and I hope I will

na koje se odnosi oduzima tekstu sve ono što mu to vrijeme, manage to organise an exhibition of her works in Slovenia, natječaju Moda u Rimu. Dok su drugi pravili varijante na rimski skirts. I made a dress that was called Fontana di Trevi and Carta Magna, (jb) mentalitet i moral daju kao smisao same radnje. Croatia or in Trieste, where she was born. Immediately after I kostim, Božini prijedlozi bili su da se na široke suknje tiskaju Pira- was made of beads that cascaded down the evening dress. 2013., kolaž

ORIS — Koji je bio Vaš redateljski koncept kod Richarda iii.? had received the award for my diploma work in Vienna, Boža nesijevi motivi iz serije Vedute di Roma. Ja sam napravila jednu The Colosseum was printed around the whole edge of the Carta Magna, ¶ jagoda buić — Nisam se bavila konceptom, bavila sam and I were presented with the award at the international haljinu koja se zvala Fontana di Trevi, sastavljenu od perlica koje wide skirt of the other dress. 2013, collage se Shakespeareom. Bilo mi je žao svake crte koju smo morali competition – Fashion in Rome. While other competitors did su u kaskadama padale s te večernje haljine. A na drugoj je oko ORIS — You also did film costume design, the best of which (jb) brisati iz tekstova triju kraljica gdje se vidi utjecaj Seneke na variations of the Roman costume, Boža’s idea was to print čitave široke suknje bio tiskan Koloseum. can be seen in the filmThe Emperor’s New Clothes directed by Shakespearea. Ali držala sam se toga da gledatelj ne može Piranesi’s motifs from the series Vedute di Roma on wide ORIS — Vi ste se isto tako bavili filmskom kostimografijom, Ante Babaja. Medieval miniatures that you have mentioned gledati predstavu duže od dva sata. Bilo mi je je također jako a vrhunac toga je bio u filmu Ante Babaje Carevo novo ruho. probably inspired the film. ¶ jagoda buić — The Costume stalo do ritma predstave. Tako se kroz ritam očitovala ta izvje- Kad ste spomenuli srednjovjekovne minijature – to je vjero- Design Award was founded precisely for the filmThe Emperor’s sna modernost. Intenzitet predstave odgovarao je izvjesnom jatno bila i inspiracija za taj film.¶ jagoda buić — Za Carevo New Clothes at the Pula Film Festival. I was very enthusiastic intenzitetu življenja. Često sam pomislila da sam rođena da novo ruho ustanovljena je nagrada za kostimografiju na film- and managed to have everything on the white background. budem redatelj. Naravno da ja to nisam tražila, a da sam i tra- skom festivalu u Puli. Radila sam s velikim entuzijazmom i The floor was also white so there was no horizon. žila ne bi mi dali. U moje vrijeme trebao si imati barem naočale postigla da sve bude na bijeloj pozadini. I pod je bio bijel tako ORIS — What is your experience with Peristil Square as a i bradu da bi te shvatili ozbiljno. Radila sam sa sjajnim redate- da horizonta nije bilo. stage? ¶ jagoda buić — I designed the scene and the cos- ljima: Tanhoferom, Gavellom, Parom, Spaićem, Radojevićem, ORIS — Kakvo je Vaše iskustvo s Peristilom kao pozornicom? tumes for the opera Nabucco at the time when we did not Violićem – velika plejada. Više sam naučila na njihovim pro- ¶ jagoda buić — Scenu i kostime radila sam u Nabuccu kada have money – I could only have given a seven-branched Jewish bama nego da sam pohađala dvije akademije. nismo imali više novaca nego da pjevačima dadem u ruke po menorah to each singer. Since there were two choirs, there ORIS — Koje su kostimografkinje eventualno utjecale na Vaš jednu sedmokraku židovsku menoru. Kako su bila dva zbora, were one hundred and twenty candlesticks in Peristil and rad? ¶ jagoda buić — Imala sam primjer dviju sjajnih kosti- bilo je 120 svijećnjaka na Peristilu i ništa drugo. To je bila moja nothing else. It was the most beautiful stage design– music, Kabooki I, mografkinja. Jedna je bila Inga Kostinčer, a druga moja prijateljica najljepša scenografija. Dakle glazba, Peristil i vatra. Peristil and the fire. Forme na Kabooki II, Boža Košak, Mariborčanka u Rimu. Ona nije bila kostimografki- ORIS — Možete li nešto reći o razlici između kazališne i ORIS — Can you tell us something about the difference vjetru i vodi, 2012., kolaž nja već Picasso mode. Ali nije ništa htjela potpisati jer je smatrala filmske kostimografije?¶ jagoda buić — Kazališna i film- between the theatre and film costume design?¶ jagoda 1973., tapiserija Kabooki I, da to nije elegantno. Zato njezin rad danas nije poznat, a nadam ska kostimografija podjednako su različite kao film i kazalište. buić — Theatre and film costume design are as different as Forms on Wind Kabooki II, se da ću stići organizirati njezinu izložbu u Sloveniji, Hrvatskoj Teatar je jedna pametna laž, a film je jedna lažna istina. Prema film and theatre. Theatre is a smart lie, and film is the fake and Water, 2012, collage 1973, tapestry ili Trstu, gdje je rođena. Odmah nakon moje diplomske nagrade tome, u filmu se treba jako čuvati svega što bi moglo podsje- truth. Therefore, everything that could evoke theatrical styli- (jb) u Beču 1954. Boža i ja dobile smo nagradu na međunarodnom ćati na stilizaciju teatarskog tipa. zation should be avoided in the film. (jb)

194 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 195 196 oris, broj 96, godina 2015. oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Intervju jagoda buić, Interview 197