IN PARTNERSHIP WITH

AN ORAL HISTORY OF BRITISH FASHION

Manny Silverman Interviewed by Anna Dyke

C1046/11

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BRITISH LIBRARY NATIONAL LIFE STORIES

INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET Title Page

Ref. No.: C1046/011 Wav files Refs.: C1046-011-0001.WAV to 0022.WAV

Collection title: An Oral History of British Fashion

Interviewee’s surname: Silverman Title: Mr

Interviewee’s forenames: Manny Sex: Male

Occupation: Fashion consultant/expert Date of birth: 2nd January 1932 witness Mother’s occupation: Housewife Father’s occupation: Tailor

Date(s) of recording and tracks (from – to): 29/07/05: (track 1-3); 3/8/05: (track 4-7); 16/8/05: (track 8-11); 6/9/05: (track 12-15); 22/09/05: (track 16-18); 20/10/05: (track 19- 22); 15/11/05: (track 23-26); 14/12/05 (CF1775 track 27).

Location of interview: British Library, except 14/12/05 at interviewee’s home

Name of interviewer: Anna Dyke

Type of recorder: Marantz PMD660

Total no. of tracks: 27 Reading Format: Wav 16bit 48kHz

Mono or stereo: Stereo

Burned to DVD: ???? Duration: 13 hours 5 minutes

Additional material: Selection of press clippings regarding Mr Silverman’s employment at Moss Bros Ltd. 3 ring bound folders of press clippings regarding Mr Silverman’s takeover of Norman Hartnell Ltd.

Copyright/Clearance: Interview completed, clearance form received (5 year embargo)

Interviewer’s comments:

Manny Silverman Page 1 C1046/011 Track 1

[Track 1]

Date today is the twenty-ninth.

Right, interview with Manny Silverman on twenty-ninth of July 2005. And I’m going to ask you first of all, how are you feeling?

Jaded, but that’s how I normally feel. But no, looking forward to this very much indeed. I’m pleased it’s going to take place over a number of sessions because what I find normally – not with this sort of thing because I’ve not done this before – but in anything that requires a certain amount of going back, sometimes if you’re doing it in a number of sessions, you finish a session and you suddenly remember, oh well, I should have mentioned that for the next session. Or, you know, that’s something that, you know, how did I not mention that. So I think that’s one of the great advantages of doing this over a number of sessions.

Yeah. And you can reflect in the meantime and…

Oh, I reflect like no-one ever reflected [laughing]. Known as an aged narcissist.

Ah. [laughing] This’ll be good. Right. Okay, so can we have your full name?

My full name is Emmanuel Silverman. I’m known far and wide as Manny Silverman.

And why is that?

I don’t know why, Manny is an abbreviation of Emmanuel and somehow it has always been with me it would seem. I think I can remember the early days of what little schooling I had, I was called Emmanuel, but I don’t when it actually happened, but at some stage it started to be Manny and Manny it’s been ever since. Causes a certain amount of confusion because – particularly for things like passports. I have been travelling, not all my life, but the last few years been travelling fairly extensively and in these days of sort of much stronger controls on passports, you know, you’ve got Manny down here but the passport Manny Silverman Page 2 C1046/011 Track 1 says Emmanuel. So I’ve been getting back to a mindset of Emmanuel but I won’t answer to Emmanuel. [laughs]

[laughs] And did your parents at any stage start to call you Manny?

I think they may well have done. I think going back neither of my parents spoke English when they came to this country, which was shortly before I was born, and I think that until I actually started school I never actually spoke English, I spoke Yiddish. And occasionally, they were from Lithuania, and I do believe – again, it’s all a long, long time ago Anna – I do believe that when there were things that they didn’t want me to understand, they then said them in Lithuanian. [laughs]

So, you didn’t learn Lithuanian yourself?

I didn’t learn Lithuanian, no. But I have recently been back to Lithuania.

And how was that?

Traumatic. It’s one of those things that you feel you want to do and you talk about doing, and the years go by and still you talk, and we came to the conclusion last year, that this coming year we would do it. And what was particularly helpful is I have a nephew who’s a Professor of Social Science out in Australia and he was able to do a great deal of research and we actually were able to go and visit the little village about a hundred miles north east of Vilnius where certainly my mother, rest her soul, came from and then we visited where we think my father, rest his soul, came from. We also unfortunately, drove deep into a forest and actually saw the pits where the local Jewish community were all slaughtered, where there is a memorial. No big hang-up about this thing, but I do believe, yes it was traumatic at the time. Didn’t… sort of added to the day the fact that there was just this torrential downpour for about twelve hours when we did it there. But I can’t say that it’s made any fundamental difference in my attitude to life or what have you, but it’s something that I felt we had to do. But when you go to somewhere like Lithuania, which, member of the EU now and I think sort of has modernised rapidly, it’s still very, not primitive, very basic I think is a better word, once you get out of the centre. And when Manny Silverman Page 3 C1046/011 Track 1 you think how the devil did people make their way from these remote villages and find their way to a seaport somewhere to take them to somewhere where they didn’t speak a language to find their way there. But, they did it and I suppose the one thing that one reflects on now is that I suppose – again, without wishing to sound maudlin or anything like it – but had they not made the journey, we wouldn’t have been talking. [laughs] That’s the reality.

Were there any stories about how they did manage that journey?

Not really. No, not really. We – my sister and I – never thought to ask and my father died when I was sort of relatively young, when I was thirteen and a bit, and never thought to ask. You know, until you reach a certain age and stage in your life, and until you actually go out and see it, it doesn’t become, not an issue, but it doesn’t become something that you even want to think, or you necessarily think about. You know, they may have just jumped on a tube and it took them to wherever it was and all was well. But it’s only when you actually get out there that you, that it really focuses the mind.

And why did it take you so long to make that trip?

Interesting point. I think we, the thought never really appealed. It wasn’t something that one wanted to do, I think if it’s something you want to do, you do it. If it’s something you feel you ought to do, not necessarily a duty because you’re not serving any person or serving any purpose, but if it’s something that you feel you should do, it’s one of those things that well, we’ll get round to later, we’ll get round to later, but my sister and I talked about it, my nephew had done a lot of work, a lot of research, there had been a very large tome on the Jews of Lithuania been written by someone, it had taken her twenty years to do, we’d seen a copy of this and our family were included. And it was a combination of factors and suddenly we realised that time was passing by quickly. And you know, things just gather pace and a cousin of mine who’s in Israeli, their family, that side of the family went to Palestine, as it was in those days, back in the twenties, we’ve all stayed in touch one way or another. And you know, she’d expressed interest to go, so you know, suddenly I said, okay come on, enough is enough, I’m gonna start, see if we can get something going. And we were all able to meet out there. My son – not my son, my son didn’t come Manny Silverman Page 4 C1046/011 Track 1 with us, my wife did – my nephew was a lecturer, it was at the time of the March of the Living, the Auschwitz thing and my nephew was lecturing both in Berlin and in Poland so it was convenient for him because he lives out in Australia, it was convenient for him. Probably more convenient for him [laughs] than it was for my cousin who had to get from Israel. For us it was relatively easy because both British Airways and Air Lithuania fly to Vilnius. So logistics became easier as well. It may well have been that the logistics had been easy for the last twenty years, I haven’t enquired. You’ve got to be truthful about these things ‘cos it’s all on tape.

That’s right.

So really, no other reason as I said, probably inertia and just the fact that it wasn’t something we had to do, it wasn’t something we wanted to do, it’s something we felt we should do.

And when you say, felt you should do, do you think it was serving your parents’ memory or – I’m interested in the ‘should’ part.

I think it was serving the memory, because we didn’t know too much about what had gone before and we began to feel probably increasingly conscious that while we still could, we ought to go back and in some way trace our roots – we weren’t gonna do anything about it, we weren’t gonna write vast tomes about it – but we really, sort of all of us reached the stage where we felt, we really want to go out there and see what it’s all about. Almost if you like, satisfying a form of curiosity. You know, it’s one of those things I suppose it’s very difficult to rationalise and maybe at our third or fourth meetings I might have worked it out, but it’s very difficult to rationalise. It’s a combination of emotions, I suppose driven, I suppose we all drove each other to it. Well we ought to do something, we’ll do something, well we’ll do something. And then as I suppose because I’m by far the oldest, it fell upon me to say okay, let’s start by getting some dates. What’s the art of the possible? And Daniel said well I’ve got to come to Europe, he said I’m lecturing. Okay, so once we had that, once we had a date or you know, a window – let’s use the buzzwords of today – a window of opportunity. [laughs] Once we had that Anna, then it started to produce focus, then I started to talk to airlines, talk to travel agents, find out what the hotel Manny Silverman Page 5 C1046/011 Track 1 situation was like. And once you reach that point, I say once there becomes a specific point of focus, which in this case was a date which Daniel was gonna be over from Australia into Europe, that provided a point of focus and once we got that, you know, I won’t say that was the driver, we were able to build on that, or build on and round that date.

When you were out there, did you manage to learn much about your father’s early life?

We weren’t able to learn anything about anything, other than from the local holocaust museum, which is very interesting and the woman that is running that - a wonderful, wonderful lady - who was just able to talk about the life of the Jews in the community generally. I think probably the saddest statistic that she gave us was, because Lithuania had always been known within those interested circles as the Jerusalem of the North, where a third of the population of Lithuania were Jewish, out of a population now of three and a half million, there are five thousand. Which is an interesting, not particularly pleasant statistic, but that’s, you know, the purpose of this is not to hark back on that, but she was able to provide us with quite a bit of background.

But not specifically about your…

Not specifically about our family. What we are doing, we’ve got some things like my late parents’ passports and their ketubah, which is a Jewish marriage certificate, and bits and pieces and we are going to send them out and you know, she’s going to try and research them for us. What is interesting is that a lot of second and third generation people, even in their twenties now, are writing in and asking, providing information and asking if their backgrounds can be traced. Now these are people who probably their grandparents, or even great-grandparents in the 1980s came out, but there is now emerging this generation, or generations if you like, of relatively younger people interested in what you call it – having seen the village where they came from and what it was like, I don’t think we could hardly call it heritage – but what the background was like and you know, is there any information.

What was your father’s full name? Manny Silverman Page 6 C1046/011 Track 1

Abraham.

Did he have a middle name or…

No, it was, as far as I know it was Abraham. So in sort of Jewish Orthodox terminology, I am Menachem ben Avraham which is, Menachem is Manny, son of Abraham. I don’t know if you know these things or not, but you don’t, you never name a child after a living relative, you only name them – that way you establish a degree of continuity.

And, do you know about, anything at all about his parents or…

Nothing at all, absolutely nothing.

And your mother, what was her name?

Ete – E-T-E – Ete. Again, no background at all, no nothing at all. The remainder of the family, those that stayed in Lithuania were all wiped out so there was no, there was nothing – while my mother was alive – just digressing for a moment – while my mother was alive I think, rest her soul, her view would have been, don’t go back, there’s nothing to go back for. That would have, that I’m sure, that was always her implied view although she never said it and we never specifically said we wanted to go, but that was always her implied view, you know, what is there to go back for?

D’you know what her name was before she married your father?

I think I require notice of that question. [laughs] We’ll have to have the ketubah translated from Lithuanian, but I’ll do my best to get it for you.

But when you were young, can you remember your parents, did they tell you anything about for example how they met?

Manny Silverman Page 7 C1046/011 Track 1

Nothing at all. It wasn’t that sort of, relationship between parents was never that, it was never a warm, cosy, comfortable relationship because it was always a fight for survival. Not survival in terms of life, but in terms of economic survival. So you know, there was no time for the social niceties, it was a question of economic survival.

Were you born in Lithuania?

No, I was born here. Within the sound of Bow Bells, at a very, very famous Jewish maternity home called Mother Levy’s. Doesn’t surprise anyone, so I think it is within the sound of Bow Bells.

Where exactly is it?

Over in Stepney. Or it was in Stepney, I don’t what that is now, but within the sound of Bow Bells, so I do know Stepney very well, I do know Aldgate – not at the time I was born, but subsequently and we originally lived in that area and then grew up in Bethnal Green. The story I always tell, I don’t know whether it’s right for the tape, you can always edit it out or not, but not so long ago I was involved in some negotiations of a fairly large scale, not that I was, I was merely there as an adviser, but during the course of these negotiations a very nice young upmarket estate agent tried to persuade me of the joys and merits of buying property in Bethnal Green and there was a point with his conversation, about twelve of us round the table, and there was this sudden lull in the conversation. I put my arm gently on his forearm and said, ‘Look son, I’ve spent fifty years working to try and get out of the effing East End of London and you want me to spend three-quarters of a million to get back in’. [laughs] One of those great moments that a lot of my associates still talk about from time to time.

So, what was the first house that you can remember living in?

I suppose the first house – I think really it has to be in Bacon Street, which is just off Brick Lane, it’s the Bethnal Green end of Brick Lane and it cuts across – actually, I do think it’s the last turning coming up from Aldgate going north I suppose it is – never terribly good on direction, I always get terribly lost – and it’s the last cross turning before there. I do go Manny Silverman Page 8 C1046/011 Track 1 back at least twice a year with my son and I always trace the same route, but he’s reached the stage now where he says, ‘Look dad, don’t tell me, I’ll tell you, this is where you went to school and this is where you did this and where you did that’. The house that we lived in, I think, was demolished, not before time. But interestingly enough, on the corner of Brick Lane and Bacon Street there is still a very old decrepit factory building where we used to go down to the basement as an air raid shelter during the war, and it’s still there.

What’s that building called?

Slum I think.

[both laughing]

Thank you. And can you describe that house from the outside first of all?

From the outside it was just a very, very awful terrace building, probably built in the 1890s. We lived in the two top rooms upstairs, four of us. The toilet was downstairs in the back yard. In the winter the pipes froze up so we never had any water. Wasn’t the most pleasant of existences.

What was the inside of the house like though?

Not very nice.

What d’you mean?

Well, bedbugs aren’t a particularly nice thing. However hard you try and keep a thing clean, and that gives you an indication of the basis of where we’re at.

Was it dark in the house?

[sighs] I don’t think so. I think when we first – my earliest recollection is that all the lighting was done by gas, so you had these little gas mantles and then eventually I think Manny Silverman Page 9 C1046/011 Track 1 there was some electricity. I think a lot of these things, you do tend to try and wipe out of your mind. Not sure whether it’s consciously or subconsciously, but you do sort of somehow, don’t gloss over them because there’s nothing really to be glossed over, but certain aspects are not worthy of retention, so if you can drop them, you drop them.

But you would have had presumably a kitchen, living area?

No, no, there was a stove on the landing, there was a bedroom where four of us slept and another room where we ate and did everything else and that was it.

What was it like to share a bedroom with your parents?

Not having ever known anything else, it was just a way of life. You know, if you’re coming from something to something else, then you have comparisons, however odious they may be, but you have them. But if that’s the way it’s always been, then you don’t know any different. And then just think that to my parents, rest their souls, this was an improvement, a vast improvement on what they’d come from.

Knowing that, how did they keep the place…

As best they could. As best they could. A lot of the time, a lot of the time, say from the age of about seven to thirteen, I was evacuated two or three times, so that’s when I started to experience comparisons. And again, when I used to come back home I used to accept it as that was the way it was.

And what was the atmosphere at home? Could you for example talk about your daily routine?

Went to school, came home from school, went to religious classes and had something to eat and went to bed.

Which school did you go to? Manny Silverman Page 10 C1046/011 Track 1

Wood Close, which is still there, it’s at, runs off St Matthias Row and those days was called Hare Street, now called Cheshire Street and it is still a school. Sadly, I’ve wanted to go back a couple of times just to have a look around, because I am an incurable romantic, but quite frankly it’s so difficult with all the security checks and all that goes with it that a) it’s not, I’ve got too much in my life going on and it isn’t that important to go back to it to be worth the effort and I also find it terribly sad that that’s the way it has to be now.

So that was your routine when you were going to school, what time in the morning would you have got up?

I would have thought seven, seven thirty-ish.

And would you have had to be got out of bed or were you someone who would be ready to go?

I honestly don’t remember, but since these days and certainly for last hundred and twenty years I seem to have been a morning person, there’s no reason why I shouldn’t have been a morning person then.

And what contact would you have had, very close contact clearly, with your parents, but would you have talked all the time?

Not really. They never, there was a loving relationship, but never a close, you know, not that sort of relationship where we would have sat and talked and communicated at length. You know, life was too difficult to enjoy that luxury.

What did your father do?

He was a tailor.

And where did he do that?

Manny Silverman Page 11 C1046/011 Track 1

Worked in the small workshops in the East End of London. The last one I can remember was in Teesdale Street, again which I believe a street which is seen to be fashionable by some, but how on earth they can see it, you know, I can’t even visualise it, but that’s what he did.

And did you ever go to see him at work?

Not that I’m aware of. You know, it’s not the sort of thing that one would do. He was working, I was at school, it was a far way away from Bacon Street up Bethnal Green Road. Teesdale Street’s the other end up by Cambridge Heath Road, you know, an exercise in futility, what the hell for?

Were you interested?

Not at all.

And what did your mother do?

Did her best to look after us and I think did little bits of work wherever she could, just to help out, and that was it.

What are these little bits of work?

She might have worked in a local shop. In those days there were lots, you know, where there was a very large Jewish community in the area, say in the – interesting, thinking back, in the sort of fifty yards or so where there is now the famous bagel factory or whatever it might be between Bethnal Green Road and Bacon Street, in those days there would have been probably three kosher butchers, about three or four grocery shops, two fish stalls – all in that condensed area.

So she would occasionally have…

Manny Silverman Page 12 C1046/011 Track 1

She would occasionally help out there, you know, if there was a chance to earn a few bob, she would.

And if she wasn’t doing that, d’you know how she would have spent her day whilst you were at school?

Probably washing, cleaning, trying to maintain some semblance of decency in the place that we lived.

And you say you didn’t talk much, did you overhear your parents talking, when they weren’t talking Lithuanian, but…

Not that I was really conscious of. I don’t think they necessarily communicated at length with each other. You know, when life is hard, all the social niceties go. And when we talk about life being hard, when I hear and read today about what people consider to be hard life, they ain’t even born.

Could you give a sort of indication of what you mean by it though?

Well, okay, on a cold morning, having to go down three floors to go outside, through the snow to get to the toilet. Not to have cold water, not to have water available in the tap, to have to go out somewhere and find somewhere you could fill a kettle. And fill a few saucepans so that you had them for the rest of the day and for the morning. Not having enough, literally not having enough money. I’m not saying we went hungry, not going through any of that, but that’s what I call a hard life.

But, your friends at school…

[End of Track 1]

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 13 C1046/011 Track 2

[Track 2]

…presumably they came from a similar background.

Similar backgrounds. Some were better placed. Some were better placed. Some of the other kids had fathers who had better jobs or what, I don’t know, you know, but some were better placed, some weren’t. I mean to say, a new jacket was a great event in my life. Which is probably why I have a wardrobes full of clothes. [laughs] A bit late in the day to start compensating, but I do enjoy it.

But, your father being a tailor, do you know how much he would have earned in an average week, for example?

I would have thought something maybe between three to five pounds. And there wasn’t always work around. Work, in the old days – it’s not like that, everything in life has changed now, but in the old days work in the tailoring business was very seasonal. And I seem to recall somewhere, I don’t for the life of me know why, I don’t know if anyone can substantiate it or not, it seemed that the season started to get busy after the Lord Mayor’s Show. Now don’t ask me what, why, when or how, I just don’t begin to know. And generally went through till about February, March. This is all, as I say, I don’t know how much is a figment of my fevered imagination and how much is genuine recollection, and then used to scratch around for work to see if he could find a bit of work here, a bit of work there.

So did he, was he sort of tied to one firm?

Yeah, he would have been tied to one firm, yeah.

D’you know the name of that firm?

No, it would have been – in those days you had a lot of what we called outworkers and they worked specifically for other companies, so you know, there were large factories and there were small workrooms and he worked in a small workroom and it would have been Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 14 C1046/011 Track 2 someone that had a number of shops or a smallish factory but needed an overflow, and they would just give the work out to these people to complete, you know, to manufacture on their behalf.

And what was his, do you know what was his usual, his main work?

On the machine, he was a machiner.

And you didn’t go to visit him at work, but when did you become aware of how he spent his working day?

[sighs] That I can’t, I can’t even consciously think how, what, why or when. I just somehow knew; it may have been talked about at home, probably in the course of some conversation or conversations that it may have been mentioned or what have you, but that’s, I’m not conscious of ever specifically asking the question, because I wouldn’t have done and I’m not conscious of ever having been specifically told. Something that I’ve just known.

And, can you give us a sort of visual portrait of how, your parents’ looks, what they wore?

[sighs] Well my father had a hairstyle not dissimilar to my own and my son’s.

Can you describe that for the tape?

For the benefit of the tape, it’s a very wide parting.

[laughs] Okay.

Wore very ordinary, very basic, cheap, cheap clothing because that’s what we could afford. And you know, very, very – and one shouldn’t speak like this of one’s parents, but you know, probably very nondescript. My mother would have been, mother was about five two, five three, maybe five foot even, I look very much like her, there’s a remarkable Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 15 C1046/011 Track 2 likeness. Unfortunately the tape can’t see me, but that’s the tape’s misfortune, not mine. [laughs] They don’t know what they’re missing.

But can you describe her though?

But again, very old-fashioned, would wear a shawl. Not like the old bagel lady, you know, that you see in the books or what have you, but again, whatever clothes that could be bought cheap, second-hand, hand-me-downs. We used to get parcels from rather wealthier members of our family sent over from South Africa, which were a great treat to receive, of clothing.

But, your father being a tailor, was he in any way interested in clothes or was it a profession?

It was a job. You know, things like profession didn’t come into it. It was a job, it was a means to earn a few quid, to keep a roof over our head and keep body and soul together.

But when did you start to become aware, were you an adolescent for example, when you started to become aware of your own appearance?

About forty-eight.

[both laughing]

No, probably about thirteen or fourteen.

And you became aware of clothes?

Became aware of clothes. First of all I became aware of girls, then I became aware of the need for clothes. [laughs]

One thing followed the other?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 16 C1046/011 Track 2

Very much so.

And what would you, say if you wanted to impress a girl, what would you have aimed to wear, if you could?

Just to have looked, I suppose, smart. I’ve always had a thing about pale blue shirts. Just to look crisp rather than sharp, to look crisp. And there is a definable difference between the two. Sharp is looking ever so slightly flashy. More to be stylish. So Coco Chanel said, you know, ‘Fashion is transient, style is forever’ or words to that extent. So I’ve always tended to dress, to dress like this, well from the time I’ve been able to afford it anyway.

Okay, before we get to that stage then, let’s go back. Are you older than your sister?

Yes.

How, what’s the age difference between you?

It’s about eight years.

D’you know why there’s quite a large gap?

Not really, no idea. I don’t think it would be anything that had been planned. I don’t think life was like that in those days, these things either happened or they didn’t.

And what’s her name?

Her name is Lillian.

And how did you get on when you were, well when she was small, you were ten or so?

It didn’t really matter that much, because it was during the war years. She was never evacuated, she stayed with my parents, I was evacuated, so in those formative years we Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 17 C1046/011 Track 2 never really shared a home. So I won’t say she was a stranger, but we never had that sort of situation. It was only when I was thirteen and got back home that we began to as it were, share a roof, live in the same house and we’ve got on reasonably well ever since, we’ve never had any major falling out. She treats me like an elder brother, which is rather nice and you know, we get on okay.

Had she been born before you were evacuated or did that happen when you were away?

I think she’d just about been born.

Can you remember that?

Funnily enough, not really, no. It’s a strange thing, but I don’t remember her arrival or anything about her as a baby.

What’s she like?

In many respects I find her different to me, but she finds me different to her, so I think we have to accept that there is a difference. She’s of a rather more steady, placid nature than me. Probably slightly – and I don’t think I could define in absolute terms – but slightly more old-fashioned in her outlook. Probably far more influenced by my mother’s attitude to life which was something of an acceptance of one’s lot. This is not to say that she’s bovine or anything like this, but there is this difference in attitude.

And your mother, could you talk about her character?

In her younger years I think rather more volatile, I think because of the circumstances, the constant pressures for money, for heating, for everything else, I think triggered her temper rather more regularly than she would have liked to have done, but as she got a little bit older and as life started to get a little bit more tolerable, became a very warm, loving person.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 18 C1046/011 Track 2

But in your formative years when you were living in that house in Bacon Street, can you remember arguments between your parents or…

Oh frequently.

What was that like for you when you were small?

Unpleasant. Unpleasant, but again, it’s like, as I said earlier, like so much else in life, if that’s the way it is, then that’s the way it is.

How would it be though, would one of them be more…

I don’t think I can really remember. I would have thought, going back, I think probably more likely to have been instigated by my mother rather than my father. Why I don’t know, maybe it’s that she felt the pressures rather more than he did.

And how would it begin?

No idea.

How serious would it get?

All depends on how you define serious. Murder of course is serious, but it does stop the arguments. [laughs] But it became very unpleasant, very traumatic. Whether it’s left any subconscious scars on either Lillian or myself, I don’t really know, but not pleasant.

Would either one of them hit the other?

Not that I’m conscious of. Not that I’m conscious of.

Would they throw objects or…

Had nothing to throw dear. [laughs] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 19 C1046/011 Track 2

Really?

Very little.

What objects were there in the house that you can remember?

I suppose like all Jewish households there were candlesticks. There was a, probably a clock, maybe the odd vase, although why the hell I don’t know because I can’t ever recall there being flowers, and various bits and pieces like that. Crockery, but not much more than that. Certainly weren’t any - you know, we weren’t collectors of Meissen. [laughs]

Did they bring anything at all over from Lithuania?

The only thing I think they might have brought over would have been books. Probably prayer books and maybe one or two other books which I can recall seeing around but not knowing what they were. But that’s about the extent of it.

Would they read?

Probably read the Jewish news, Yiddish newspaper because that’s what they would understand. They would probably read that.

Was there a name of one?

I think the Zeit was one, which is the Times. Slightly different to what I have in my case today. Probably the crossword is even more difficult.

Would that have been published in London?

Oh yeah.

But would they have read for pleasure? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 20 C1046/011 Track 2

No. No we never even had a radio. But the people who lived downstairs used to let us, Lillian and I listen to the radio.

What were they like, the people downstairs?

They were pleasant enough people.

Was it a family or…

Not dissimilar to ourselves, but they had, they were rather more grown up and they had three or four of the children living at home so they were bringing money into the house. So you had more than one person contributing.

Were they a Jewish family as well?

Mm hm.

What was their name?

Maurice I think it was, seem to think it was Maurice. Although… yeah I think, I pretty well think it’s Maurice. It’s not one of those, for whatever reason, has stuck.

And how did you make a relationship with them, did you go and knock one day or…

I’ve no idea. I’ve no idea. Probably there were a couple of rooms to let, word gets out like these things, presumably in those days there were the equivalent of stationers or tobacconists, what have you, with cards in the window, two rooms to let, and that’s probably how it would have been or someone would have known someone.

So they would have been renting a room, their rooms as well?

They would probably have rented the house… Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 21 C1046/011 Track 2

And then they sub-let to you?

This is it, yeah. There was no Landlord and Tenant Act in those days. [laughs] Though people today don’t know they’re alive, quite frankly, really, really. When you think back and you’ve, you know, given me the opportunity, I regard it as an opportunity to think back in depth, something which I haven’t done on a consistent basis over a short period of time like this, it’s rather interesting to think back. I shall think of you when I sleep tonight. There’ll be two aspects of it – we’ll pass over the one… [laughs]

[laughing] What’s the other?

But the other will be thinking about what went before. I’ll make you edit this tape madam. [laughs]

There’s no editing. [laughs] But yes, um… Yes.

Passing on quickly. [laughs]

But when you say, we don’t know that we’re born, I mean for somebody who might be listening to this tape in many years’ time, can you give some sort of indication of what you’re thinking of there?

Well first of all, you know, a bathroom, an indoor toilet, let alone a bathroom. One of the things that I get a certain amount of strange pleasure out of is that when I have to travel to East Anglia on occasion and I’m sitting there - very fortunately my clients like me to travel first class - I sit there and I pass by Hare Street Baths where we used to go to the public baths, where there wasn’t enough money always to pay for food or pay for clothes and when, you know, the benefits that are readily available. And then going into the war years which a lot, millions of people, this is not a rare or a unique experience, but the shortages of the war, but that was brought about by other factors. But when you combine those shortages with poverty, you know, it isn’t the greatest combination in the world. You know, can you imagine today a family, a family of four being given two rooms, a cooker Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 22 C1046/011 Track 2 on there, a basin, a cooker on the landing, a one, small sink with a cold water tap, an outdoor toilet three floors down. You know, please, you know, that crystallises the difference. And no bathroom of course.

It must have been terrible for your mother to try and keep you clean and…

Mm hm. But she always did, we’ve still got pictures at home of myself being dressed for school photographs and Lillian being dressed for school photographs, beautifully crisp, looking clean. That’s something we do look back on.

So how did she manage that?

Unfortunately she’s not been with us for over ten years now, but only she could tell you. But we, and we weren’t alone. You know, we weren’t alone in this, this was how it was and if you put it in the context of probably where they’d come from and what there was here, it was a better life, but there were certainly no handouts to be had. There were certain charitable organisations, there were wealthier families I said earlier, in South Africa that would send us parcels of second-hand clothes, but that was about it.

What were the charitable organisations that you were thinking of?

There was an organisation called the Jewish Board of Guardians, which was the main one, which did try, if things got really desperate, did try and help out. Not necessarily with money, but with food, with clothing, wherever they could.

Where were they based?

I think they were based – trying to remember – round the back of Whitechapel. Somewhere, if you’re coming down from Aldgate, down Commercial – still get confused between Commercial Street and Commercial Road – but you’re coming down towards the Liverpool Street end, roundabout the Wentworth Street area where the market is, I seem to recall there was a building there somewhere.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 23 C1046/011 Track 2

And did you have any contact with them at all?

We had contact with them and in point of fact, when we come to the next, or one of the next stages of the conversation I can tell you a little bit more about them because they sort of used to keep an eye on my progress when I was doing my apprenticeship. Once they took you under their wing, again you know, there weren’t massive handouts but they did care for your welfare.

But did your parents, when you were very young, did they have need to go to an organisation like that for anything?

I wasn’t aware of it, but again when I was very young I wouldn’t have known about that.

Did you ever get a sense of what their attitude toward doing something like that would have been? What was their feeling about asking for help or…

[sighs] I think all contributions gratefully accepted. Now there’s a difference between being given and there’s a difference between unsolicited and solicited. Now, how it worked I don’t know, but there is a fundamental difference, you know, if you’re knocking on someone’s door with a begging bowl, putting it very blatantly, very bluntly, that’s one thing and what that does to your pride. And someone knocking at your door and saying oh, we’ve got this, would you like to have it, sort of thing. There is a fundamental – I’m sure you understand this very well, but there is a difference between the two situations.

And did the unsolicited kind come along, d’you think?

No idea. The only unsolicited that I can remember, as I say, were the parcels from South Africa. I don’t think they would have been solicited, but I think, you know, the family would have known that all contributions would have been gratefully and humbly received.

But did your parents have connections with their neighbours or did they have friends that they could…

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 24 C1046/011 Track 2

I think so, there was always, in the East End in those days there was – not necessarily a community relationship – yeah there was a community relationship. First of all, you were all pretty well in the same boat and some people were more religious than others so there was the synagogue just as you have today in the various Muslim and Hindu communities, you tend to build round your place of worship, but some people are more involved than others. I think we were not quite so involved as others, and then you know, I can remember the warm evenings sitting out on the doorstep and everybody else doing the same. There’s an air of romanticism about that, but it was, you know, when there was a nice evening, kids would play in the street.

What would you play?

We’d play top, with a top.

What’s that?

You know, a spinning top.

Ah, okay.

A spinning top. Things of that nature. Play with a ball, try and play a bit of cricket, you know, put up a dustbin as the stumps and a piece of wood from an old orange box as a bat – because that’s what was available.

And who were your friends?

Who were my friends? It’s interesting. Quite a – well in the, I didn’t really form friendships because as I say, by the age of seven and younger you don’t really form lasting friendships. I only started to form friendships at the age of twelve, before when I joined a local boys’ club, which we’ll talk about after, which was a very important part of my life, and there, guys there that I met there, who I see now once a year at boys’ club reunions and I’ve stayed in touch with over the years.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 25 C1046/011 Track 2

So that was when you returned from…

What happened is I returned I suppose back in early 1944 when things settled down a bit and that’s when I joined the club.

And you were?

About twelve-ish. Late eleven, early twelve, knocking on a bit, in my dotage [laughs] and then was sent away again when the V1s and the V2s started. And then came back again when things quietened down, rejoined the club and that’s when, you know, that’s when I started to form relationships which, some of which I’m pleased to see the guys now and we are now talking some sixty years ago. And I’m still as pleased to see these guys as ever and in some small way I think they’re equally pleased to see me, even if it’s only out of curiosity.

But back to your life with your parents – were they proud, d’you think?

Well, proud of what? Proud of themselves or…

Well, in terms of when we were talking about asking for help and there’s an element of pride involved in that isn’t there?

I don’t think they could afford the luxury of pride. Pride is a luxury. If you can afford it, it’s all very well. If you have need, then you can’t afford it. Sorry if it sounds philosophical, but… [laughs]

What was your father like?

Very quiet, placid man, resigned to his lot, and that was it.

What is your strongest memory of him? When you think of him, d’you picture him in a certain sort of moment?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 26 C1046/011 Track 2

Funnily enough, I don’t, because he passed away in 1946. He was older than my mother, considerably older than mother, passed away in 1946. I’d been away all those years, on and off during the war. He was working all hours that the Almighty was able to offer, so really there wasn’t just that much, you know. If you haven’t sort of been through that situation – I’m not saying it was Dickensian, but it certainly wasn’t much better. So you know, never really got to know him.

So, as a small boy, when you, for example when you hurt yourself, when you fell over or something…

I got a belt round the ear for being careless.

I was going to ask, who would you have gone to if you felt upset, who would you have confided in?

I wouldn’t, I’d have lived with it. I’d have lived with it. There was no-one to confide in.

Not your mother?

Not really, no. She had too much on her plate anyway and as I say, if you fell over, got a whack round the ear for being, or round the legs, for being careless. [phone ringing] Oh sorry about that.

[break in recording]

So, you were saying that had you fallen over…

I would have been slapped. [phone ringing]

[break in recording]

Okay. From your mother, you were saying.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 27 C1046/011 Track 2

Right. No, I think the natural reaction would have been not, you know, a warm cuddle, you poor little soul. It would have been, you know, it would have been an irritant and her reaction would have been more likely…

[End of Track 2]

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 28 C1046/011 Track 3

[Track 3]

…than not, just to slap me.

Where?

I don’t remember, but I don’t think it seems to have done me too much harm wherever it was. Probably in today’s day and age I could have gone to the European Court of Human Rights and done Lord above only knows what with it, but somehow I don’t think it’s done me too much harm.

Would your father have disciplined you at all?

I have no recollection of him ever disciplining me, but as I say, my connection, my time being with him would have been little. He’d have gone to work first thing in the morning, he’d have come home relatively late in the evening, so it just wouldn’t have happened.

When he came home, what would he have done?

Eaten, slept. And then got up and gone back to work in the morning.

What time would he go to work?

I would, again, I wouldn’t know the time. But I would have thought seven thirty, eight o’clock. But again, when I started work I always used to go into work at that time of the morning, if not before anyway.

And when would he have come home?

I would suppose six thirty, seven.

Would he have, d’you think he’d have had a lunch break for example, or any kind of…

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 29 C1046/011 Track 3

I think he would have had to have time to eat something, I think you can’t work a sewing machine and sort of eat and drink at the same time, however much pressure there is on you. But I don’t think there were rules and regulations in those days, there was a job to be done, the job had to be done and that was it. I think there was also an element that if you couldn’t do it, there were plenty of others who could.

Did he, were you aware, did he suffer any ill effects from his job at all? For example, eyesight or any kind of strain or…

Not that I’m aware of. Don’t even recall him wearing glasses I have to say.

And where would he have learnt his trade?

Oh, would have learnt that in Lithuania. I would have thought, again I don’t really know because when he came over with my mother, as I say, I wasn’t yet born and I certainly would have had no idea where, but you know, I naturally think that he would have brought a trade with him. Which is why so many first generation immigrant families, particularly Jewish families, I don’t know too much about others, although certainly with the Cypriot community, the first thing you do if you are a member of an ethic minority is you learn a trade, because a trade is transportable. And if you’ve got a trade at your fingertips, whether it’s cutting hair, sewing, cleaning shoes, doesn’t matter what, but that is transportable. You don’t have to speak the language to do the job and that’s very, very important if you are of an ethnic minority that may be asked from time to time to move on.

Did they learn to speak English?

Not really. My father probably a little more, but I remember so little of my father that it’s very difficult. But my mother, not really. Even in her later days, you know, rest her soul, when she was in her eighties and a great source of fun to us that you know, that her accent was wonderful. That was lovely.

What was it like?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 30 C1046/011 Track 3

Oh it’s absolutely, it’s… I couldn’t begin to imitate it, but it was just sort of – not unique because a lot of people are like it – but it was just so far removed from English. And it was never a conscious decision not to speak better English in my opinion, I think she learnt her English up to a certain point. Living within a Jewish – if you’re learning the language of the country which you’re fortunate enough to live in, but within your community, you will learn it that way with all the nuances and all the inflections and all that goes with it. You still see it today with elements, I’m not sure whether it’s more the Africans or the Jamaican communities, but the second and third generation still speak in very much, they speak English, but still speak the English that their parents learnt – particularly when one’s conscious ‘cos one’s seen a bit on television recently of the first generation of immigrants coming over on the Windward and things like that, and they tend to speak that sort of, so that’s the English you learn.

So your…

I learnt a different sort of English eventually.

Eventually? So when you were young, how would you have been communicating?

I would have, once I went to school I think I soon learnt language, that very early age you soon learn and I think consideration and understanding was there from the teachers who knew the nature of your background and, you know, could handle it.

But at home you would speak Yiddish?

Yeah. I think once, and I can’t remember at what sort of age it would have been, but I think there would have been a certain point in time when I would have wanted to speak English rather than Yiddish. Probably my sister at a much earlier age because she’s – I said she was eight years younger, she may not be quite eight years. She’s probably seven or eight years younger, it’s hard to remember. But you know, by the time she was starting to learn language and speak English when, certainly when I was home I would have spoken English so she would have spoken English, plus a combination of that and school, she would have got into English much earlier than I did. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 31 C1046/011 Track 3

And your father, you said he was quite a lot older than your mother, how older, how much older?

Probably twenty years.

No idea why that age gap?

[sighs] Just one of those things. And something that we never looked into or enquired as to why, just one of those things. He may have been, well he was older than her and you know, it may well have been that he had the vision or whatever it was, the need, the desire to come, to emigrate to Europe and hopefully to England and my mother was happy to marry him and go with him.

You said hopefully to England, why would that have been the ideal place to go?

I think that’s where they wanted to go. I say ‘hopefully’ though, there’s another reason, hopefully, so many Eastern European immigrants boarded a boat, got to somewhere like Liverpool and were told they were in America, which is why you have Jewish communities in Dublin, in Glasgow – not so much now maybe, but there were Jewish communities, substantial Jewish communities in Dublin, in Belfast, in Glasgow, wherever there were ports. They were just dropped off at the ports and told right, this is America.

And they believed it for a while?

What are they gonna do? They don’t speak the language, they’re off the boat, they’ve landed somewhere, that’s it. [laughs] Life is full of surprises Anna.

But you think your parents would have wanted to be in England rather than…

I assume so. I assume so. There was never anything that I heard said that would have said well why weren’t we in South Africa where everything seems to be so much better or what have you, I’m never conscious of ever hearing anything being said. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 32 C1046/011 Track 3

What was their attitude towards England?

Gratitude. Gratitude. If you can go to bed at night, however uncomfortable, however unpleasant, however difficult it may be, and know that you were not gonna be dragged out of your bed at night, beaten, shot, slashed with swords by the gallant Russian Cossacks or whatever, if you can go to bed at night and know that at least that wasn’t gonna happen to you, it’s a hell of a difference to where you’ve come from.

You said that your mother’s philosophy was to not look back, to not sort of, you know. Were they, was she, did she try and sort of really adopt British or English values?

What do you define as English values? There are different classes aren’t there? We certainly couldn’t take up upper class values or even middle class values. We lived in the East End of London when the East End of London was the East End of London. Them was the local rules and them was the rules you lived by, you know, it’s how you define values. If you look at certain aspects of East End life, certainly they didn’t adopt gangster values. There was a work ethic and that was what you did. You worked and you did what you could. One didn’t necessarily consciously adopt what was the, what appeared to be local custom, call it whatever you like, but what they never sought to do, to the best of my knowledge, is have a grievance as to why the local country which was prepared to accept you wasn’t prepared to change to meet your needs, or your perceived needs and requirements. That’s the way it was, you were grateful for what it was. Everything was there, as I say, you were allowed to pray freely, you had the public baths to go to, where you paid a penny. You had all these wonderful facilities and you were grateful for it and you just conformed in every respect. Conformity was the name of the game. You didn’t subject yourself or sort of humiliate yourself I wouldn’t have thought, but what you did do is you didn’t seek to change everything because that’s the way you wanted it. You just conformed, you learned to conform. You kept your own identity, you kept your own religious values, you kept all the other values that were acceptable to the country that was prepared to give you a home and you know, you lived your life that way.

But did they have a view about what Englishness, what that meant? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 33 C1046/011 Track 3

Englishness meant a chance to live. English, living in England I think subconsciously, because there was the ongoing struggle to live, which wasn’t really confined to first generation immigrants. You know, poverty was poverty was poverty. The more you understood the local language and the more you, the language of the country, the more you understood of everything, the better your opportunities should have been. But what they were in a position to do was to live. And that’s, you know, a very, very great blessing. As I say, to be able to put your head down at night, however uncomfortable, all the other horrible things about where you were, but at least, you know, you were ninety-nine point nine per cent sure that no-one was gonna come banging on the door.

What was your parents’ attitude to class? Were they aware of it at all?

They weren’t aware of it.

When did you become aware of the class system that exists here, did?

I suppose when I joined the boys’ club, because the managers of the boys’ club in the main had been – ‘cos it was the Cambridge and Bethnal Green Boys’ Club – and they’d been undergraduates and they’d come and started the club and run it. The last time I had this sort of conversation, which may well amuse anyone who in the fullness of time might be listening to this tape, was that about ten, eleven years ago we did a fashion show at one of the, I don’t know if it was Sotheby’s or one of the big auction houses, can’t remember which one it was off the top of my head, and met this very nice lady and we had supper after the show and she was asking a few questions, not dissimilar to this, but obviously not quite in such great depth but, ‘I understand you’re from the East End’. And we talked and talked and I said, ‘Where are you staying tonight?’ and she said, ‘Oh, we have a place in London’ – she had been introduced to me as Dorothy – ‘We have a place in London, but our main home is in the country’. And I said, ‘Whereabouts is it?’ and she said, ‘Actually Manny’ she said, ‘it’s called Chatsworth’. [laughs] It was Dorothy Devonshire. So that also extended my knowledge of class. A treasured moment, that was wonderful, I shall always remember. I mean she did it so beautifully. ‘Actually Manny’ she said, ‘we call it Chatsworth’. And I think if we can close on that note because… Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 34 C1046/011 Track 3

[End of Track 3] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 35 C1046/011 Track 4

[Track 4]

..he was the first.

Absolutely right. Okay, interview with Manny Silverman on the third of August 2005. Now before we begin, you said that you were going to go to the football this evening and I don’t know if it’s an interesting topic yet, but you said you supported Charlton.

No I didn’t say I supported them, Charlton, no. No I don’t really support any particular club, but it’s just nice at this sort of pre-season time when clubs are playing all sorts of other teams that they maybe wouldn’t normally expect to meet in the general season and tonight Charlton are playing Feyenoord and it seemed an interesting one to go to and a chance to spend a few hours with my son and here we are, and since the British Library is en route, insomuch that it does lie somewhere between Kings Cross and Euston on the Northern Line, so that’s where we’re off to this evening. No, I’ve never been able to get heavily involved in terms of partisanship for any football club, for any cricket team, but I just want to go along, watch it on television and to be able to enjoy it without having to go through the agony or the ecstasy.

So what do you enjoy about it then?

It’s just, the crowd, in the main you, certainly at these sort of games you get sort of non- partisan crowds which I do prefer. It’s a nice atmosphere, if it’s a pleasant evening like this evening looks like being, then it’ll be a nice two or three hours in the open hour, just you know, sitting, relaxing and just taking it easy.

And so you don’t like partisanship…

I have strong views on certain matters, but I do believe that one should confine one’s strong views and energies to those matters which I think really matter to me in one way or another, in the broadest sense of the world, but I won’t go into what those matters are because they are sort of privately held views and this is the first time I’ve refused you – I Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 36 C1046/011 Track 4 didn’t believe I could refuse you anything. But I’m refusing you access into my most innermost thoughts.

Fine. But could you tell us a little something about your son?

He was born at an early age. [laughs] No, he’s in his early thirties, having sort of lived away from home when he was at boarding school and then at university. Since coming back he realises it’s the best hotel in town, gets very, very well looked after in his early thirties. Doesn’t have, or hasn’t had a regular job for ooh, a few years now, but does all sorts of things, teaches grown-ups, having taught me to use a computer, he now sort of teaches grown-ups to use computers on a one-to-one basis, has an eBay business where he sells exclusive branded merchandise and also has had a business in the past, has not really pursued it, which I thought was very good, which did business plans for small companies. So I suppose living at home with no real responsibilities, there’s no drive or a motivating factor to make him really want to knuckle down. But you know, if you go back to our previous and first conversation, my background, maybe I am in some way guilty of over- compensating for what I never had, but if I am, so what.

And what’s his name?

His name’s Jeremy.

And is he a similar character to yourself do you think?

In some ways I think yes, it’s very, very difficult to really know because I only see him when he’s with us, but I don’t see him all the time, so yes I have a view of what he’s like when he’s with us, but how he is when he’s not with us I don’t really know. I’d like to think he’s pretty well the same because he ain’t a bad chap to be around.

So, back to your childhood. And at the very end of last time you told me a little story about meeting Lady Devonshire of Chatsworth.

Oh yes, that was, yep. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 37 C1046/011 Track 4

And that was in answer to a question – I don’t think I got the real answer as such, but I was asking about your awareness of the class system in England and I was wondering at what point you started to become aware that there was such a thing?

I was, I suppose I came reasonably aware that there were different levels, there were different standards of living because I experienced this when I was evacuated, went to some very poor, stayed with some very poor homes and stayed with some very, very nice, I suppose these days would be middle class families. And so I knew at that stage that there were differences in wealth, call it whatever you would, but in terms of having an understanding of socio-economic groupings, that was probably a long time off and I suppose not really till I started to work and then one became aware of one’s employers and what they had, then what middle management seemed to have and from that you gradually built up. I suppose, you know, middle management tended to live in the suburbs and top management, owners of businesses tended to live either in town or way out, so how would one best describe it? I suppose middle management were Surbiton, top management were Guildford stroke Esher. But that wouldn’t have been I suppose till I was about sixteen or seventeen that I really became aware of it.

But when you were evacuated and as you say, you became aware, you saw different sort of lifestyles to the one you came from – what was your reaction to that?

You became a chameleon. You learnt to adapt to whatever it was. People treated you not very sympathetically, but you were imposed upon them, you learnt to accept it and I suppose in those circumstances my own background was in many respects a benefit because what you’ve never had, you never miss. Or that’s what I’ve always been told, but I still think I’ve missed a few things in my life. [laughs]

So when you saw the way different people were living, what did you suddenly feel that you missed?

I suppose I didn’t really feel that I’d missed anything. You know, my lot was my lot, such as it is without sort of being melodramatic about it, and you know, that was it, you know. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 38 C1046/011 Track 4

You just learned to accept. Like, I would think, like ninety per cent of children learn to expect what they’ve grown up with and if things change, either for better or for worse, you tend always to be I suppose mentally prepared to go back to what was. And if what was wasn’t very much, then whatever changes that may have been possibly for the worst, couldn’t have been that much worse. You know, physically cruelty, child abuse, that may have been, but thank God, that I never suffered. So you know, one just got on with life.

But you talked last time about, you gave a sort of indication about the economic hardships that your family was living in. You didn’t have a bathroom, et cetera and I was wondering, were there things, not that you missed as such, but that you longed to have, that you were aware was out there but you didn’t have?

Not really, because don’t forget it was also during the period of war, so it isn’t as though we were living in today’s consumer economy when there’s everything out there to be had. In those days food and sweets were all on ration and toys and things certainly weren’t readily available, all industry was geared towards making munitions and things like this and as far as food was concerned, as I said before, that was rationed, sweets were on ration, you had your ration. So in many respects, although we had very little, that period of time was in many sense, a great leveller. So looking back on it, it may well be that this may have been one of the other factors that one didn’t become aware of what one might have been missing or what else there was out there, because as I say, it was a period of austerity, it was a period of war and that was in many respects a great leveller.

And what was your diet in those early years?

[sighs] Blowed if I could remember. Suppose there was a certain amount of bread and jam, maybe an egg once a week. But I think that’s been well and truly documented, I’m sure there’s a lot been written about wartime diets and rationing and what it was all about, and as I say, that’s what there was, we were never conscious of being hungry.

But living in a Jewish community as you were, could you give us a flavour of, did you frequent Jewish shops to…

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Well as I said, you know, when we spoke last time, living where we were, okay didn’t frequent Jewish shops, there weren’t too many Jewish shops in Huntingdon, a place of that ilk and because I just ate what there was going, but living in the East End, when you live in a close community and you know, we talk about a ghetto complex, but a ghetto complex as in a region rather than the mental type of complex, but living in an area - got to use the word area - tend to cater if you’re of an ethnic minority, with religious beliefs and a possible language problem, you tend to grow round your place of worship. And it’s interesting that the Machzike Hadath in Brick Lane, which is now one of the largest mosques, prior to that was a very large synagogue and prior to that was a place of worship for the Huguenots when they came over. So you tend to congregate in that area. It’s an area that caters for your dietary, culinary, call it whatever, requirements. The language, if you’re not au fait with the language of the country where you’re in, it’s easier to communicate and this is your place of worship, communications and catering for your particular dietary requirements. And even if one isn’t talking in terms of religious requirements, you know, every ethnic minority has its own, you know, dietary make-up. It’s very little to do with fashion I know, but it’s an indication of how one grew up and the background to the circumstances and the situation.

But you mentioned there the synagogue, and I was wondering how much that meant to you, specifically?

Very little really. One was conscious that one was Jewish and one was made conscious that one was Jewish when we were, you know, evacuated because you were a stranger as it were, in that sense of the word. The synagogue was there, I suppose the reason I didn’t grow up very Orthodox was that I spent so many of my formative years, certainly for one period of two, two and a half years, going to church every Sunday. ‘Cos the family that I was living with went to church and I was expected to go to church. You know, no-one thought well, respect for religion or what have you, it’s we are going to church Sunday morning, matins, know all about it, evensong, you… [laughs] So you know, so if you grow up with that it doesn’t remove your identity, but there isn’t quite the same sharp focus as there would be had I grown up and lived in a totally Jewish community with an ongoing Jewish education and all that went with it.

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But going to a Catholic church then…

It wasn’t Catholic, it was C of E.

Was it?

C of E. But I’m sure I’d have been equally welcome in a Catholic church.

Sorry. What was the difference then, having had some experience of going to a synagogue and so on when you were younger, can you remember what it was like for you to be in the C of E church?

It was just part of the way things worked, it was part of a way of life. Part of, you know, and since one was relatively young, you are more adaptable at that age. We’re talking seven, eight, nine, ten years of age, you know, you just accept that that’s what it is and that’s what you do.

What was the visual impression that, the difference between them, what was the visual impression that the C of E church made on you though?

Size was one thing because most synagogues tended to be rather small. The music, because you have the organ and the choir. There seemed to be a much greater orderliness about it than what one could remember at the time of being in a synagogue.

So could you talk about what it was like earlier in a synagogue then, as a comparison?

Well, then I would have been five, six or seven, so one just went but you don’t really remember a great deal at that time.

Just a little bit?

I suppose because of size, because synagogues in the main were relatively small. Okay, places like Machzike Hadath in Brick Lane was a larger one, and the Bethnal Green Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 41 C1046/011 Track 4 synagogue was a larger one, but a lot of them were very small, so one felt you know, can’t think of a better word than cosiness, but there was a certain cosiness about them. You know, you weren’t, you didn’t feel that you were in austere surroundings. And certainly in Orthodox Jewry it tends to be very less disciplined in terms of how we pray, we all pray at the same time but probably at different speeds. [laughs]

How fast would you go?

Unfortunately in my formative years I didn’t get, because a lot of it you do learn by osmosis, I’m not particularly fast these days, but I do gallop on a bit if I can. You know, where it’s conned by rote I can sort of whip away with the best of them, but anything unfamiliar, I’m afraid I’d still be there about three hours after the service had finished if I wasn’t careful.

Was it a comfortable environment to be a child in?

…Let’s put it the other way round, turn it on heads and say it wasn’t uncomfortable. It was just you were there, whereas one felt that there were the strictures of discipline when you were in church. So you’d have large formal pews, everything was that much more formal, whether you were at the age of seven or seventeen or seventy, you had to listen to a sermon, sit through all of that.

But there wasn’t that in the synagogue?

Not to any great extent, no.

And what did religion mean to your parents?

Not a great deal. We kept a kosher home as far as I can remember, so observant yes, but certainly we weren’t zealots. No we just I suppose, maintained a Jewish home as such.

You said last time that you can’t recall conversations or there wasn’t much conversation going on between family members, but if there was, would religion ever be brought into… Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 42 C1046/011 Track 4

No. But I think that’s – unless both parties in any faith are particularly involved in their place of worship, be it church, mosque or synagogue, unless both parties are particularly involved or very Orthodox, I would have thought it, you know, religion isn’t a great topic of conversation for most households of all faiths.

Were you aware when you were young, before you were evacuated, were you aware of your parents having any political sort of stance?

No, wouldn’t have had any political stance whatsoever. No, they were here, they felt they were lucky to be here, just got on with their trying to stay alive and make a living.

D’you think, you said they read a Jewish newspaper and so on, d’you think that they kept themselves aware of what was happening in the world?

I can only assume that if they read Jewish newspaper, which would have catered for general news anyway, the reason they bought Jewish newspaper was for no other reason I would have thought, that they couldn’t read the English newspapers. So that’s why. And presumably they would carry the sort of news to a large extent, in those days there was no Israel to report on so you weren’t, there wasn’t a state or anything like that, so it would be general news as to what has happened and someone recognised presumably that there was a market, albeit a limited one, but a very condensed market, a very focussed market, ‘cos in marketing terms when you’ve got a very clearly defined market like that, and I don’t see where business does really fit into this aspect of what we’re talking about, but if you have a focussed and tightly knit market like that, then you can cater for it very effectively. And you can say that about all things. I mean I wouldn’t open a clothing shop on the campus of a nudist colony. [laughs] Putting it in reverse. [laughs]

When did you become aware though of politics or current affairs?

I suppose when I was maybe fifteen, sixteen and I became a member – there’s rather an amusing aside at this point – I became at that age a member of the National Union of Tailors and Garment Workers and it seems no time afterwards when I was on the national Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 43 C1046/011 Track 4 negotiating body for the employers. [laughs] But that’s how life changes and we are all adaptable. [laughs]

Well you are.

Well, you know, let’s face it, it sort of reminds one about the lovely story about the young man very anxious to get a job and came before the Board of Directors and expounded on his views and principles generally and he said, ‘But let me assure you gentlemen, if those views and principles aren’t acceptable, I do have others’. [laughs]

Where’s that story from?

I don’t know, picked it up a long time ago, but it’s oh so very true.

[both laughing]

You mentioned in the last session that you had family that had gone to South Africa, who sent clothes parcels and so on. I wondered if you could, from what you know, give some indication of where your family sort of dispersed to when they left Lithuania.

As far as I can tell, and we don’t have a great deal that we can find, although as I say, my nephew has done a certain amount of research, but I think a certain number of them went to Palestine as it was then. Not so many came to the UK because I’m not conscious of a great deal of family ever in the UK, maybe two or three relations and maybe a few family friends, other families that had come over, and possibly some I’m told went to the United States, but I’ve never been conscious or known of any family that went from Lithuania to the United States, so I would have thought the bulk of them went to South Africa.

Whereabouts?

Whereabouts in South Africa?

Mm. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 44 C1046/011 Track 4

I think as far as I can tell, most the Jewish communities were in Johannesburg, although there may have been some in Durban.

And, as a child, what did you know about those family members?

All we knew about them was that they, you know, they were a darned sight better off than we were. We used to exchange, you know, mother and sister always used to exchange letters with them, so there was correspondence and every once in a while, maybe once a year, maybe not quite so often, they would come and visit the UK, which in itself was an expensive business in those days ‘cos you wouldn’t have flown, you’d have come by ship and to be in a position to be able to waste money if you like, but to have money available, disposable income with which to do that meant that, you know, they were doing very, very well.

Did you meet them?

Yeah, from time to time. Remember very little about them other than what they brought. [laughs] Which was some very nice toys and things like that which we never had, and as I say, the clothing and what have you. But I have no great recollection of them, but I do remember it was sort of something of an event when they were coming over.

And their name was Silverman as well?

No they wouldn’t have been Silverman because I think they tended to be more my mother’s relatives rather than my father’s relatives.

Can you remember getting on with them?

Wasn’t with them long enough to establish a relationship, good, bad or indifferent. It was only a relationship of gratitude. [laughs]

And what were the toys that they brought? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 45 C1046/011 Track 4

Ooh, I can only remember one, which was a battery operated car. I’ll always – isn’t it funny, I’ll always remember that particular one item. In those days it was so rare and new and unique and the fact that someone had actually bought me one of these items, that I remember, but nothing much else.

Can you describe it?

Not sure, I think it was just a dark maroon or a dark brown car, wasn’t very conscious of car types in those days. About that size, I suppose a foot, a foot and a bit, but obviously something very special.

Battery operated?

Yes indeed. I think the old battery used to be a number eight battery, was the battery that we… I think that was the battery that always used to be used, probably the most used battery – don’t know whether The Guinness Book of Records would have anything on it – but the number eight battery was the number you used for torches, everything about that time, it was the number eight which is sort of a round battery. Sort of like a double round Duracell or one of those.

So how old were you when you received that car?

Again, I would have thought seven or eight. It would have been, it would have been I would have thought before 1939 because they wouldn’t have travelled during the war and I would have thought that I would have remembered a lot more and been a lot more conscious after the war, forty-five, when I’d have been twelve or thirteen. So whilst I could in no way pin it down, I think taking it back as logically as one can, it would have been about that sort of age I would have thought.

Would you have played with it by yourself or would it have been a means of sort of interacting with other people, other friends?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 46 C1046/011 Track 4

I honestly can’t remember, but I would have thought it would have been a way of inter- reacting, with a few chosen friends. [laughs]

And d’you know why, how that side of the family was wealthy or better off than you?

They, I don’t know, I honestly don’t know whether South Africa had more opportunities…

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[Track 5]

…or whether they were better equipped to make a living. You know, even in today’s day and age there are people who can make money, people who can just blow money and there are other people who will just have to do things, you know. This is how it is, it’s the way of the world. Now I’m not saying, or even I hope implying that every one of the family that went to South Africa had a very, very good living. Probably there were a lot of others who didn’t, but they’re the ones probably we never heard from.

But, did they have a trade that you knew about?

Not that I’m aware of, but I think sort of, I know sort of some of them went into the garment industry.

And what were the clothes that they sent you?

Oh it could range from shirts, pullovers, jackets, that sort of – it was outerwear.

What sort of quality was it?

It was certainly better quality than we were able to afford, because even if it didn’t fit one tried to get into it one way or the other. That’s if it was too small, if it was too large then you padded yourself out or waited and hoped that you’d grow into it.

Was it different, how different was it to what your friends would have worn, you know, when you put it on, did you…

Again, if it was during a period of war, period of clothing rationing, everybody wore whatever they could get, so there was no set style in those days for anyone. The only set styles there were in those days were the uniforms that people wore. Other than that, you wore whatever you could get.

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You said last time, I think it was, a new jacket was a big event for you when you were young.

Uh huh.

When you said that were you thinking of a particular sort of outfit?

Yeah I think I always remember, there were two big stores that one went to in the East End in those days. One was called Wickham’s, which was in Mile End. That was lovely because you used to have the canisters, used to pull the thing and they used to go across, like in Are You Being Served? And the other one was Gardiner’s, which was where Gardiner’s Corner in Aldgate, there used to be a big store on the corner there called Gardiner’s.

When you say a big store, can you sort of describe what you mean?

It’s a departmental store, it was a corner site, but it was the classic departmental store of the thirties and probably early forties, most of which have long, long gone, some of them through poor trading, others through redevelopment. If you’re aware of the Aldgate area and that big corner, Gardiner’s Corner, that’s where the store was, all of that whole corner was demolished just as the, at the top of Brick Lane where it gets to Aldgate, there used to be a church and that church was demolished as well. I couldn’t believe it the first time I saw that, I don’t know how many years ago, it’s irrelevant, but I couldn’t believe that they’d demolished the church. But that had been done as well. So you know, of those sort of stores, I’m trying to think, not that one was very au fait with stores. Harrods could have been on the moon for what it meant, but there were stores like Gammidges which were in High Holborn, there were lovely stores, a store called Woollens, I think, in Victoria. That again was pulled down when all of that major redevelopment took place. So again, you know, like all retailing it’s an evolutionary thing. Some flourish and go forward, some become absorbed into other groups where they can enjoy the benefits of scale, and others just lose it.

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But of those stores that you mentioned, those names, which of them can you remember had the biggest impact on you when you were young?

Ooh, marginally Wickham’s over Gardiner’s, although Gardiner’s I think was the better store, but Wickham’s was something somehow I could relate to, for the want of a better phrase, you know. That’s one I remember.

What d’you mean, relate to?

It was somewhere that I did go from time to time and if you don’t do something very often, but you do it a few times and it’s generally an event when you do it, you tend to remember it and if you tend to remember it, it’s a form of relating to it.

Who would you have gone with?

My mother.

While you were going, would you have talked together?

May have done, may have done, but if - I can’t remember whether we spoke or not, I certainly can’t remember the tone or tenor of any conversation.

But it would have been a pleasant outing?

Oh very much so.

And she would have been choosing clothes for herself or…

No.

No. Just to look?

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Just to, you know, if there had to be something new for me, that’s what it was about. Or I suppose for my sister as well, but how she shopped with and for my sister I don’t really know, but again, Lilian was always well clothed and always looked after. I think as I said earlier, even from these school pictures when I was four or five and my sister the same, you know, we were more than adequately dressed.

So a piece of clothing you would have needed would have been a school uniform or…

No, no, never school uniforms. No, none of the schools that I went to had aspirations of that level. No, it would have been either a nice jacket, I think a jacket rather more than a suit.

What was a nice jacket?

As I say, a Prince of Wales jacket which was a nice tweed type of jacket, something that would be fairly hardwearing, something medium to dark in colour.

And would you have had a hand in sort of choosing it?

I would not have been the decision maker. I may well have had the opportunity of creating or being involved with the shortlist. [laughs]

Have you any idea what a jacket like that would have cost?

Oh, I’d have thought three or four pounds.

So it’s quite a lot really.

Quite a lot, this is why it had to last.

And can you describe Wickham’s?

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Not really, it was a store, is a store, is a store. It was a multi-floored store. Can’t even remember which floor menswear was on. It was a fairly large frontage because it was sort of fronted in the main Mile End Road, unlike Gardiner’s which was a corner shop which expanded as you went in through the front into much wider as you went towards the back of it. But other than that, you know, a store is a store is a store. Used to be exciting, with the buzz and all that went on. Always remember the first time I visited a West End store when the daughter of a neighbour took me. It was Bourne and Hollingsworth, as was in those days, and I couldn’t believe that I could just go up and down the escalators as often as I wanted. To me it was the equivalent of being in a fairground. I always remember that, just couldn’t believe that you could just go up and down these escalators as many times and as often as you wanted to. It was nirvana. [laughs]

Would you have been able to sort of wander by yourself a bit?

What, out to these stores?

No, inside the stores.

I wouldn’t have wanted to. I don’t know whether that would be born out of insecurity or what, probably would have been. You know, it’s a largish place relative to what one is used to. I mean to say that today I’d look at it and think, you know, it’s not much, or if I was evaluating it, looking at it from a commercial point of view or being involved with a bid for it or something, I’d look at it and think well, not worth the trouble. But in those days, one had a totally different perspective of life.

And you said, as regards Wickham’s, all that was going on, the buzz in there.

The buzz, there were people doing things, there were these lovely metal canisters going across the room, or through the Lampson Paragon tubes which were a vacuum, are a way of doing things from one floor to the next, to the central cash desk.

A vacuum?

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Yeah, they were sucked up and blown down. Lampson Paragon tubes. They were about, round that sort of diameter and the shop assistant would put the cash – no credit cards in those days dear, if you didn’t have the money you didn’t have it – or you could, there were probably cheques, but that’s another thing. The money used to go, they used to sort of put it in a tube, pull a lever and it would go whooshing up to central cash desk and it would then be sent down in the reverse tube with the change and the receipted bill and everything that goes with it.

And there would have been different sort of departments for menswear, children’s…

Oh, just as you have today. Just as you have today. Concepts in retailing, large, small, what have you, but it tends to make sense to have menswear together, womenswear together, electricals together, so people know where to head to.

And what were the sort of, the furnishings like in Wickham’s?

Again, I wouldn’t have known, but I would imagine that it was certainly for the East End of London and a major store, so it would have been very much right for the time.

Which was?

Whatever it was. They would have, I doubt if there any books even showing what Wickham’s were. I would have thought in those days there would have been a lot of mahogany cabinets and things of that nature being used. Certainly, you wouldn’t get the hi-tech look you have today, sort of looking at the ultimate, go and visit New Look in Oxford Street, their most recent store and you know, the way that is hi-tech is an entirely different world.

But it would, it wouldn’t have been colourful at all, I should imagine?

Doesn’t strike me, there’s no, sort of when one thinks back there’s nothing that strikes you, you know, strikes me sort of in my memory that - there was nothing there that had a wow Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 53 C1046/011 Track 5 factor for me at that age. The first wow factor as I said was the, you know, were the escalators in Bourne and Hollingworth.

So, let’s talk about Bourne and Hollingworth then. Can you sort of give the indication of the sort of visual impact of that?

Oh just the sheer size, the sheer size of everything and the fact that it was in the West End, in Oxford Street and the east side of Oxford Street. Because in those days Oxford Street was a major shopping street and you know, you look at it today, certainly that east side and even going onwards, very very tacky. But an interesting aspect of retailing is how it has tended to move west, because you had New Oxford Street which is no longer a shopping street, you’ve got Oxford Street itself which is pretty tacky in the main, and as you go further along, then you get to Selfridges and then what was the old C & A store and a few nicer places like that and of course then when you go further west, then you get to Knightsbridge and also to Kensington High Street. Now whether it’s gonna ever spread to Hammersmith I don’t know, but it’s an interesting aspect of retailing to see how it has moved.

But where exactly was Bourne and Hollingworth?

It would have been on the north side of, about two-thirds of the way up on the north side of Oxford Street, on the section between Oxford Circus and Tottenham Court Road. So, we’ll call it the north east corner. ‘Cos going the other way, even today you’ve still got a Debenhams, I think you might have a House of Fraser as well, but you don’t have anything like that on the east section any more at all.

So you said that inside the scale of everything struck you. Can you sort of liken it to anything?

No, because it was a first time going there is a unique experience and like so many other things in life you always remember the first time more than anything else. And we’ll dwell no further on that. [laughs] But that’s the way it is.

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So you remember the escalators?

Mm.

Anything else?

I suppose I felt comfortable. Well first of all I wasn’t with a parent, I was with someone much younger, I think it was one of the daughters of the people who had the tenancy of the house where we lived, who’d taken me in. She would have been eight, ten years older than me, so she would have taken me just as a little treat if she was going up shopping, taken me to the West End to go shopping, and I was happy to roam around in the store. Although it’s an interesting thing now one focuses a bit on it, I was happier to wander around there without feeling at all insecure, because everything seemed to be – I don’t know why, it’s almost a contradiction in terms – but everything seemed to be far more orderly and I could find my way around.

How?

I don’t know, I felt I could, I felt comfortable and we’re talking just about one half to three-quarter of an hour visit to a store in the West End. I couldn’t tell you the next visit that I made to any store whatsoever, I couldn’t begin to remember.

Was it very light inside?

It seemed to be light because it had space and it fronted on to Oxford Street with large windows everywhere. So you know, everything, it was, I suppose the fact that there was space gave the feeling of lightness and airiness.

Can you remember what the other customers were like?

Not at all. I was having so much fun on the escalator. [laughs]

And can you remember what the staff were like to you? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 55 C1046/011 Track 5

Not really, because I didn’t have any dealing with them. She’d gone to buy something, taken me along as a treat to the West End, so I didn’t really have any dealing with the staff at all, whereas with the staff in Wickham’s and in Gardiner’s Corner, they were actually looking after me, putting on jackets, you know, and getting the stock out and they were very pleasant, very nice.

Would they have called you sir, when you were a boy for example?

I doubt it very much indeed. Either S-I-R or C-U-R. [laughs]

But would they have treated different kinds of customers in different ways?

I think just as people do today, I think a lot depends on the level of professionalism and the type of store that you have. I think the classic example of how you can be treated in a store is think back to the movie Pretty Woman. Did you not see the film?

No.

That’s where she goes in to the store in – she’s a hooker – goes into the store and is treated like absolute dirt and then picks up with Richard Gere, very very wealthy man and then picks a load of – they’re fawning all over her because she’s with this very important, very famous man, then ‘D’you remember me last time I was in here?’ and walks out. So, I think it’s inherent in human nature, we all inter-react in different ways with different people, having the same conversation. I could be sitting here trying to have this similar conversation and there would be something about the relationship which made me feel I couldn’t be as free and sort of open in my thinking back as I am with you. You know, it’s the relationship between people, but that’s a relationship as such, that’s not based on an economic assessment, that’s not a value relationship. You know, is this customer worth bothering about. So I’m sure you’ve made up your mind whether Manny Silverman’s worth bothering with or not, but it’s up to you, but there’s not sort of value aspect in it, am I gonna sell him a thousand quid’s worth of merchandise or is he a timewaster? And I think that must have existed in those days and still exists today. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 56 C1046/011 Track 5

But can you remember how they treated your mother?

Pretty well the same. Because many of them would have come from similar backgrounds and would have had that understanding. They were both stores in the East End of London, albeit a little bit apart and most of the staff would have come from the East End anyway. So they would have been second, maybe third generation, but still they were, so there was an understanding. You know, it wasn’t serving aliens.

Can we talk about school. Can you remember, did you go to school before you were evacuated?

Mm hm.

Yeah.

As I was saying, I went to Wood Close School and then each time I came back I went back to Wood Close School. I remember having to take an exam – I’ll always remember this – having to take an exam, a scholarship exam for a London school while I was evacuated and had to sit my paper in a class where the rest of the class were being taught history, I was filling in my exam paper. Didn’t get very far.

Didn’t you?

No you can’t, you know. First of all, wasn’t taught for that sort of exam and b) how can you take an exam paper when you’re in a class of other children being taught history.

What was the nature of the exam paper though?

Don’t even really remember that. Don’t even really remember that. But what I did do is when I did take an exam – forget what they called them in those days, it was through the London County Council – I did get a scholarship to go to what they called Craft School, because I was then of an age when it wouldn’t have been worth putting me as it were Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 57 C1046/011 Track 5 through specific further education. Always remember, it was what was then the Regent Street Polytechnic and I had the choice, they had three courses, it was interesting – there was hairdressing, motor body building or tailoring. So I went to tailoring, but that I got, though when I had a chance to take that scholarship, managed that very easily, but after a very short time, about a year and a bit, it was time to go to work, I was fourteen and it was time, my father had passed away, it was time to go to work.

Okay, let’s rewind. Can you remember your very first day at school?

Not quite, but I’ll always remember the head teacher whose class I was in was Mrs Woods and she was lovely. She was an auntie, she really was, she was warm, she was understanding. So many of the teachers in those days had all enormous hang-ups themselves, were very unpleasant, very harsh, but she was a very warm, very very nice, very pleasant lady. But other than that I can’t remember a great deal, it was a long, long time ago.

What did she teach you?

I don’t honestly remember because we were four years of age, as I say my sort of knowledge of the English language was absolutely minimal but I wasn’t the only one like it and she was able to cope with that. I suppose some of the other teachers and if you’re with kids you pick things up fairly quickly, so I don’t really remember. I mean it wasn’t a, it wasn’t an unpleasant experience, it wasn’t something that I thought you know, dreaded every day. The only thing I dreaded every day has stayed with me ever since, is fear of being late. I’m never ever late for anything and my lovely wife, if we look like being remotely early for something, will manage to find something to do which will ensure it being a white knuckle job.

Where do you think your sort of phobia there comes from?

I don’t think it’s necessarily a phobia, it’s a form of self-discipline if you like, necessarily good manners, but I would far sooner be early than sort of have a gut buster, white knuckle jobby sweating on the top line, you know. I would far sooner be at an airport two hours Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 58 C1046/011 Track 5 before check-in even if they say it’s an hour. I just happen to be, you know, I’m more relaxed, that extra hour, whether I could be doing something with that extra hour or not, I will enjoy that extra hour more knowing that I’m where I need to be when I need to be.

Does that mean that perhaps when you were young you had an experience of being late and it being disastrous or something?

It could well be, I’m not conscious of it, I’m not conscious of it but it might well be. I think a lot of it is, I think one can, there’s always a danger, I say a lot of people have made a very good living out of reading into what isn’t there. People like Mr Freud and a few others, you know. I think there are certain inherent traits in all our natures and that’s what’s there, it hasn’t necessarily been caused by anything other than one’s genes and one’s make-up.

That’s true. Although, would you say that you are somebody who, you know, what someone worries about is quite personal to them isn’t it, so you worry about time-keeping and what else – are you a worrier would you say?

Oh, worry about everything. Always have been. You know, again it’s one of those inherent things of nature, you know, is the glass half empty or is it half full?

Which is it for you?

It’s all, it’s gone just below half full, so I need to be doing something about it. If you’ve never had, then you want to be very conscious – or no, you don’t want to be, but I’ve certainly have become very conscious, I’ve not become necessarily acquisitive, but I tend to want to preserve the status quo, at worst.

So you said, was it Miss Woods?

I’m not sure whether it’s Miss or Mrs Woods. I would have thought it was Mrs Woods.

So, she was affectionate in her manner? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 59 C1046/011 Track 5

I don’t think so much affectionate, but she was warm. When she spoke to you, you felt not necessarily the milk of human kindness, but you felt that there was a warmth there.

And does that for you make her sort of stand out from other people that you were in contact with?

Not, it makes her stand out from the other people who weren’t quite so pleasant particularly, but in the main, you sort of tend to remember the warm and the icy, or the kind and the unkind. What comes in the middle is just part of the general way of thinking.

You said last time that for example if you fell over or had an accident or something you’d tend to be sort of an irritant at home for example. What would happen at school if something like that happened?

No idea, I suppose a lot would depend on whichever teacher you happened to be with at the time. If he or she had a nice nature then they would be fairly concerned, if they didn’t, they’d just make you get up and get on with it. It certainly wasn’t the time when you had the ambulance chasers saying where there’s blame there’s…

[End of Track 5] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 60 C1046/011 Track 6

[Track 6]

…claim you fell over, we’re gonna sue them, wasn’t like that at all. [laughs]

But, Mrs Wood, would she have sort of…?

Honestly don’t remember whether she did playground duty or not, whether it’s more likely than not to have happened.

And who were the sort of more icy teachers?

I suppose the most unpleasant one was a man called Mr Hood, who I do remember, who today would have been locked up and the key would have been thrown away, because he would definitely think nothing about whacking you round the ear, but very hard, or I remember going, on a couple of occasions going home with my hands up somewhere where we’d been caned for virtually nothing, for smiling or something, while he was talking about something serious. But I suppose, there you are, a not so latent sadist. But as I say, you know, he’d have been locked up and they’d have thrown away the key by now, but in those days just that was the way it was.

Were you frightened at school?

I was very conscious, I wouldn’t say necessarily frightened, but I was very, very conscious of punishment and if you’re conscious of punishment then it’s a form of discipline. I think it’s gone too far the other way. In those days I think it was too far and too extreme one way, but it certainly maintained discipline. Now, if you read your newspapers – I don’t have a child at school – but if you read your newspapers now, you know, it’s, again, personal view, I think it’s become nonsensical. But what it did do is it maintained discipline. Whether it had any lasting effects, I don’t think so. You know, that’s just the way it was and again, like so much of what we’ve talked about, what doesn’t, you know, looking at it in today’s terms, seems to be absolutely awful, but if that’s the way it was and you’ve not known any other way, that’s it, you know, no sweat.

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Can you describe the school a little?

I suppose, like so many other LCC schools of its time. Square, brick building, asphalt type playground, school gates – we used to get metal gates where you used to go through – fairly wide but shallow stairs. There would be sort of two sets of stairs for each landing. Whether that was done to save the poor little children’s legs or whether it was an economic thing, I think more likely the second, but that’s how it was. Most floors you had a hall and the classrooms tended to be round the hall. Wood block flooring. Apart from that, as I said, if you remember I mentioned last time that I had wanted to go back and take a look see, but it’s such a hassle that I really can’t get caught up with that.

I think you also said that, you know, you felt that it was a shame that it had become that way?

Yeah, this is it. It’s like something else. In those days and it’s not really digressing because it’s something else on the same basis – in those days you couldn’t go into the cinema, into an ‘A’ film without an adult and parents more often than not didn’t want to go or couldn’t go and they’d give you the money and you’d stand there asking an adult to take you in. And there’d be half a dozen kids there – you wouldn’t ask to be taken in for free, but you’d say to a total stranger, ‘Will you take us in please?’, and there was no problem. Can you imagine doing that today? You know, it’s the world, you know, don’t want to get going into that, you know, you scratch your head and you think what the, you know, what has happened to people, what has happened to society? But you know, you’d go to the Mayfair in Brick Lane which is now a rather large and upmarket Indian restaurant, probably the least authentic of the many that are there, what used to be the Mayfair Cinema. Just used to go up there and just say, as people, adults were going in, ‘Would you take us in please?’ And they’d buy your ticket for you and then you’d find yourself a seat. Never aware of having been interfered with or molested, you know. Not aware of any unpleasant experience whatsoever. And you could just do it and to me that’s part of, you know, what I think is, you know, there’s a sort of a trust that’s gone.

When you were a child though, were you ever aware of you know, a safety issue with a child, you know, an accident that happened or something more serious? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 62 C1046/011 Track 6

No, the only serious thing was when kids that you knew at school had been killed in the Blitz. Now it doesn’t get much more serious than that. But that was, you know, that was warfare. Never, never conscious of any form of paedophilia – I’m sure it went on, I’m not saying, for one reason I was fortunate, particularly with being evacuated so much, but I was never conscious of that.

So, what happened when a child was caught up in a bombing and you know, a child died and – what was said to you at school?

Just you know, you knew. And it was again, it’s at the time, it’s of and at the time.

It’s sort of hard to sort of, you know…

It’s hard to visualise. In some respects the events of the last month have brought that uncertainty back into life, but you’d hear the bombs falling, you’d hear them come whistling down. Didn’t know whether one had your name on it or not. And I think it was the last V1 that killed over a hundred and fifty people which was not very far from where we lived, it was in Brady Street, we were in Bacon Street which is just a bit further, going further west I suppose, or whatever it is, up Brick Lane. Could just as easily have been us. There was a very large clothing factory at the end of Bacon Street, which is a very short street, completely destroyed. I say, as far as from here to Euston Station. We came out of the shelter in the morning and it had gone, or you know, when I say gone, it was certainly not what it was before and it never reopened. But as I say, once it becomes the norm, then it ceases to have any significant impact.

But how would you feel, did you actually know a school colleague…

Oh yeah, quite a few of the kids I knew very well, were mates. Also remember, you know, someone coming in to school – can’t think of his surname, his forename was George – and said, you know, we were bombed out last night. He came to school the following day straight from the shelter and the whole house and everything in it had been destroyed. But it was going on all the time. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 63 C1046/011 Track 6

At school, did they have any kind of you know, assembly sort of system? Oh yeah, very much so. Yeah. There were all sorts, first of all the school bell used to ring twice in the morning, once at five to nine and then nine o’clock everybody used to dash in and then you’d get to assembly which was a – I don’t remember too much about it – it was a rather formal affair. The headmaster would be there, would stand in front with the other teachers, make – I can’t even remember any of the announcements – but then that would be for about a quarter of an hour and then you’d go to your classes.

Would there be any kind of religious basis to that assembly though?

There would have been hymns sung, yup.

So, a Christian sort of emphasis?

Oh yeah, very much so. Not an emphasis, that’s what it was.

Was there any kind of sort of recognition of the fact that many of you would have been Jewish?

Not that, not that I’m particularly conscious of. You know, this is where we are, this is the country, this is the, you know, the faith of the country and you know, that’s how it is. Again, you know, now, maybe a big hang-up, you know, I’m sure the Court of Human Rights would have a ball with this, they’d all be out, the lawyers, all with their snouts in the trough on this one. There’s so much that, you know, I’m not saying we grew up better human beings as a result of it, but I think we grew up a lot more tolerant, I’d like to think so.

What was the sort of, the range of subjects that you studied at that school?

Reading, writing, arithmetic.

History? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 64 C1046/011 Track 6

A bit of history, a bit of geography, but in the broadest sense, history would have been kings and queens of England. Geography would have been primarily British Empire, all that was red on the map at that time.

And what subjects were you drawn toward?

Nothing really.

Were you good at anything?

I’ve never been, I don’t think I’ve ever been particularly good at anything. [laughs] No I don’t think so, I’ve always been blessed with sort of general knowledge, you know, just been able to adapt and understand most things well enough to cope. [bell ringing]

And would there have been any kind of sort of qualification at the end of your time at that school?

Not at elementary school. You had elementary school, secondary school and grammar school, they were the three levels. Elementary school is where you started and finished, you didn’t pass your exams. Secondary school was, produced some fairly bright people and then grammar school was if you sort of had a sort of a reasonably good level of intellect, so people like Harold Pinter went to Grocers’ in Hackney. So they would have been more or less the three levels. Some people who were particularly bright, I remember one guy, I always remember his forename was Roy, he went to City of London, you know, and that really was, wow, you know, genius level. But what you did have is I think you had a far greater level of ambition within the lower class of the working population, the children and the aspirations of the parents, not necessarily any one ethnic group, it was pretty broad that there was ambition to do better. You know, it wasn’t gonna come in the way of state handouts, you know, if you wanted more and if you wanted to do better, you’d have to work for it.

So which school did you go to? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 65 C1046/011 Track 6

Wood Close.

After?

And then for about a year I went to Regent Street Polytechnic, which is now the University of Westminster, to tailoring school.

So, I’m confused. So you stayed at one school until you went on to sort of…

Until I got my scholarship for craft school.

So what made you… How were you attracted to doing crafts, rather than…

I wasn’t, that’s what was, you know. As I say, it’s a different age. You weren’t, there wasn’t, you know, you weren’t handed a menu. Now what would you like to do, d’you want to be brain surgeon, rocket scientist, entertainer? That particular exam was the last before you’d have left school, that was the last cop-out one which I was able to take, that was a craft school, so if you wanted to take the craft school scholarship, it was there to be had. You got a measure of support for your fare money and you had the choice of the three crafts – hairdressing, motor body building or tailoring.

And why not motor body building for you?

I don’t think I was particularly suited for it. Tailoring came most naturally. Tailoring was the natural thing – not for the family because we weren’t that hung-up – but tailoring was the natural and the obvious thing to go for. Again, we come back to it, I think we said last time, you know, the great advantage of having a trade is that it’s transportable.

D’you think your parents had any expectations of you from school?

Not really, no. No, it was just a question of one was gonna go, one went to school because that was the way you did things, you went to school and then you went to work. And then Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 66 C1046/011 Track 6 when you went to work, you as I say, went into a trade. Okay the fact that I got the scholarship, what I did follow it up with when I started work, I did follow it up with evening classes to learn cutting, design, pattern cutting, which I got one of the few qualifications which I ever got in my life, which was a City and Guilds first class pass. That was in the dark ages and as I say, that was probably now I suppose close on sixty years ago.

But as for your own aspirations, it was just…?

Aspirations were very, very limited. Aspirations came along at probably our next or the one after next get together. [laughs] Whether you’ll eventually let me get to aspirations.

Yeah. Did you have sort of daydreams though, you know, not realistic ones but…

Oh I think we all had daydreams, I think, I can’t even particularly remember what they were, you know, I suppose daydreams were looking at what other people might have had that one didn’t have, whether it’s a family with a car, whether it’s a radio or a television set or whatever it was. So the daydreams were, if only we had that sort of thing.

And specific to you?

…I suppose, without being specific, in being specific, just enough money in my pocket to be able to buy within reason whatever I wanted to buy. If I saw three comics that I wanted, to be able to buy all three, rather than maybe just about being able to buy one. Just to have a little bit more. That was aspiration and that was almost a dream as well.

But did you have sort of dreams of, I don’t know, living in a stately home or that kind of…

It would have been nice I suppose occasionally if one visited friends, family friends who say lived in the suburbs, which, little houses today, but you’d look at them and think well this would be wonderful to have a garden and have a bathroom and have an indoor toilet, fantastic.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 67 C1046/011 Track 6

Did you ever have a daydream about being famous?

No. No, just would never have occurred to me.

Or coming into contact with you know, aristocrats or…

No, it wasn’t even a million miles away, it was so far removed from where one was at at that time that it was just totally out of any form of reality or even being able to dream it.

What was your sort of consciousness of our royal family?

Oh, was and still am an ardent royalist. Don’t agree with the way they necessarily do things, but having said that, you know, I am an ardent royalist.

When did you sort of become aware of them, d’you think?

Oh, one was always aware of royalty, you know, one was always conscious of royalty and you know, one’s duty to king and country and respect. It was what’s lost, or again, seems to have been lost in addition to discipline is respect. Now whether the two go together or not I don’t necessarily know, but there was respect.

So, did you sort of grow up thinking that the idea of inherited sort of wealth was, you know, fair?

It was the way it was, that’s the system. That’s the system. I’ve never had any problem with inherited wealth, I’ve never been burdened with it. [laughs]

Is it a burden?

It’s a burden I’d willingly undertake. [laughs]

Really though?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 68 C1046/011 Track 6

Of course it’s not a burden, I’m being facetious, but you know, it’s never been anything that’s likely to happen or has happened or certainly this stage of my life is likely to happen. The only possible thing that might come my way would be if one of my premium bonds paid out more than fifty quid a time. [laughs]

Now, you were evacuated several times, and could you just give an outline of where you went?

First one was when I was very young at the start of the war, that was in Cambridge. Stayed there for about six months, initially went with my mother and sister, my father stayed in London. They were there for a few weeks and then went back home, I stayed on for about six months and then came back home. Then when the Blitz started to get a bit hairy and houses all round us started to get knocked down, we were sent off, we finished up in a place called Hemingford Abbots, ultimately became famous because of John Major’s relationship there, the Hemingfords, that’s where he lived. And that was what was then called Huntingdon, which is now incorporated into Cambridgeshire. First house I went to was absolutely marvellous, lovely people. She did in fact, she was a wealthy woman with a younger husband and according to my mother she did want to adopt me because they didn’t have any children of their own, but her husband wouldn’t be having it. Had a beautiful home, had a very large chicken farm so we had eggs for breakfast every day, it was nirvana, but in the end I think because of the husband’s concern, the way she was feeling about me never having had a child, I was moved on to somewhere where I was totally resented and not ill-treated, but badly treated. I was just an absolute nuisance, a minimum amount of food, no big deal, I survived it well. Then moved on elsewhere to another family who were very pleasant, but weren’t exactly enamoured of having me there. Then one of the chaps, one of the boys that I got to know at the local church school where I went to at that time, he said, why don’t you come and live with us and I went to live with them until I came back to London. That was fun, we never fell out and it was quite good. That was the Allan family, they were the local builders and that was very, very nice. Then came back home. That would have taken us – sort of came back home probably about in forty-three – and then in forty-four when the doodlebugs started, I was sent out to somewhere near Sudbury in Suffolk, initially stayed with a very, very elderly lady who needed more taking care of than she could take care of us. Then again went to stay with Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 69 C1046/011 Track 6 another couple, again childless, and she was very, very fond of me and treated me very well indeed, but we lost touch when I came back. The doodlebugs had started and my mother also wanted me, sent my father also to come back to have the bar mitzvah which is in effect the Jewish confirmation. So I came back and had time to learn my bar mitzvah piece which is part of a religious ceremony, came back for that. So I suppose it was all East Anglia based. I think the reason it tended to all be East Anglia based, because Brick Lane is so close to Liverpool Street, so that’s your nearest mainline station. Never thought of it before that way, but talking it through like this and you can see, so it all went from Liverpool Street.

So, unless I’ve counted wrongly, that was six different families?

Oh yeah. There may be one or two others that I’ve missed out, I don’t know, but that’s the way it was, you were shunted around and shunted around. You weren’t really welcome, you know, in the main you were imposed upon people.

How was it organised, was it people volunteered or…?

There was a television programme about it not so long ago. I don’t think – some people volunteered, other people were just told. They were given a sum of money obviously to look after you, but if they didn’t want you, they didn’t want you and certainly the amount of money that they were paid, I don’t think was enough to change their view. Didn’t do me any harm.

It must have affected you in some way though?

Oh yeah, effect is one thing, harm is another. It may, for many, many, many years, I think I was relatively insecure and I think if there was any effect, it could have been that feeling of insecurity.

I mean you mentioned that the first family that the mother, well the wife, was becoming sort of attached to you and then that caused the sort of, the problems, but did you feel attached to them? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 70 C1046/011 Track 6

I don’t think so. I don’t think so, I wasn’t conscious, you know, I wasn’t conscious of myself – it may have been even at a very early age I realised that this was no place in which to become emotionally involved because, you know, the more involved you became, the more likely you were to be hurt at the end of it all. Whether I’d rationalised that out as a child, I don’t think so, probably more instinctive than anything else.

So when do you think that you rationalised it in those sort of terms?

I think it just went into, you know, it went into my mind or it happened on an ongoing basis.

It’s very early to sort of, you know, however instinctive it is, to have that sort of feeling that you can’t…

But you know, again it’s of the time. How many children today get pushed from pillar to post? They go into care or what have you, but to get pushed around like that, it’s a different time, it’s a different environment. You know, there were no sort of bodies, as I say, it was a period of war, every able-bodied person, women and…

[End of Track 6]

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 71 C1046/011 Track 7

[Track 7]

…men were needed to do specific jobs, so there wasn’t a whole raft of social workers, competent and incompetent. There just weren’t – there were maybe one or two people responsible, but with all that was going on. So it was a different time. I’m sure other people will have been in this position where they’ve talked about it and probably covered the same area, whether their experiences were similar to mine or not I don’t really know.

But then everyone’s sort of personal reaction is going to be very…

Very diff… although it’s gonna be different, there are only so many different types or levels of reaction, so for those of us of that particular generation, or my generation, will have had certain views and I don’t know how they might or might not have been treated. I can remember my mother saying in later years that the family wanted to take me out to South Africa. What would have happened then I don’t know, boat may well have sunk, I don’t know.

Did you say that they were quite well off, the first family, the first couple that you went to stay with?

Uh huh.

So that was a point of comparison straight away?

That was the first point of – probably that was my first direct point of comparison. Not necessarily having money or not having money, but having my own bedroom, having a bathroom to go into. You know, sitting, you know, sitting for dinner, having a table laid. It was a totally different world, one which is was happy [laughing] to adapt to, even at a very early age. But realised I think even then, it was very transient.

What was the view from your bedroom window?

Probably chickens. [laughs] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 72 C1046/011 Track 7

I don’t want to put a word into your mouth, but did you miss home?

Occasionally, but this was such a pleasant contrast, probably missed my family, but not necessarily the home. [laughs]

Shall we end there for today?

Fine.

[End of Track 7] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 73 C1046/011 Track 8

[Track 8]

So it’s the sixteenth of August 2005, interview with Manny Silverman. And I was looking back through my notes and I realised that at no point previously have I actually said, what’s your date of birth?

Well, back in the dark ages it was the second of January 1932, which makes me seventy- three. I think! [laughs]

How d’you feel about being seventy-three?

Doesn’t bother me at all. I think providing physically you’re reasonably okay, age is very much a mental thing, you can think yourself into a decline or you can think yourself lucky and can keep going if you like. I’ve been very fortunate – a) thank God, I’ve been reasonably, kept reasonably well and been kept reasonably busy, and if you’re fortunate enough to have that combination, you can get that mental stimulation and you know, do a certain amount of travelling. Although I must admit I have looked for things to do. I think, you know, the sensible thing in life really is, I’m not the greatest planner in the world, I suppose I’m lazy, but I think if you can think ahead as one should have done, or hopefully I think I’ve done throughout most of my life, yes you can rely on serendipity because I think a lot of that, there is a lot of that that comes into one’s life, but I think you also have to try and make it happen. You know, that reminds me of the guy that went to his place of worship and said, ‘Please Lord I’m in terrible trouble’, you know, ‘let me win the lottery’ and this went on week in, week out, week in, week out and eventually a voice came from above and said, ‘Look, do me a favour, at least buy one ticket’. [laughs] So I think you do have to, yes, you can’t make your own luck, but what you can do I think is do your best to create opportunity. I think people tend to confuse luck and opportunity. And I think opportunity has to be worked at or thought through. Luck yes, there is an element of that in all our lives, but I think if you rely on luck, then there’s a lot of times that you’re gonna find yourself very disappointed.

But you didn’t retire at sixty-five did you?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 74 C1046/011 Track 8

No, it was all rather strange because the path that my career followed put me in sort of a strange situation because – and we’ll no doubt come to this aspect of it later in our discussions – but I was out of a job with a firm that I’d worked in for forty years, totally institutionalised as a result of that, but when I was fifty-five years of age. Now this is one heck of a shock, to say the least, you are, you know, as we’ll talk more about that if it’s of any interest as part of this, but there I was at the age of fifty-five. I then, with some chums did a number of things including getting involved with Norman Hartnell. That ran for about five years, so there I was at the age of sixty, having been reasonably successful, not having made a lot of money at all. As an employee you never do, it’s the golden leg iron and in those days there weren’t the ginormous pay-offs because we’re talking now about 1987 and there just weren’t the ginormous pay-offs and what have you, so I then just at the age of sixty had to start to build a business if you like, using my experience which was consultancy, using my knowledge, then got involved with expert witness work and one or two other things. So once that got started there wasn’t a sixty-five years time to retire, here’s your clock and anything else that goes with it, whether it’s Big Ben or one of these funny little watches, but you know, and off you go, well done loyal and faithful servant. We didn’t have any of that. And things just ran on and they continue to do. I think, I don’t know if I may have, if I’ve repeated myself, but you know, people ask me even today, you know, what do I do, how do I find the work that I get and I always repeat the story that Sammy Cahn, the archetypal Jewish songwriter tells – or told, because he’s no longer with us, he was the guy that wrote Three Coins in the Fountain, wrote all the Mario Lanza hits, wrote some great standards - he was literally the archetypal Jewish American songwriter and three times I was privileged to hear him speak, one of the best speakers of all time and he always told this one story, everything else was completely fresh when he spoke, but this one story came out all times. He said, ‘People ask me, what comes first, the tune or the words?’ And he said, ‘Neither. First comes a telephone call’. [laughs] And that’s how it is with me. You know, the telephone goes or doesn’t go as the case may be. If it doesn’t go, thank God I’ve got enough coming in to live to the standard that - we don’t live high off the hog, we don’t have yachts, homes in the south of France or anything like that, we just live comfortably within our means so there is no undue pressure - for me as much as anything, the work is, if it’s something that I want to do, is, you know, a pleasant way of spending time and earning money for Gordon Brown’s exchequer because Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 75 C1046/011 Track 8 a large percentage of what I do earn these days has to go there, but okay, that’s what it’s all about.

A digression, but where did you hear Sammy Cahn speak?

Variety Club, where I was reasonably well involved at one stage, I was on the crew which is the management board of it. But when I was no longer with Moss Bros, it wasn’t so easy, you couldn’t pick up a phone to as many people as you could in the past and raise the sort of money or get support for advertising for brochures and things of that nature, so you know, if the object of the exercise is to raise money for underprivileged kids, so I’ve stayed a member of it ever since and have continued to be involved as best I can. But it was at Variety Club events that he spoke.

Why did you choose the Variety Club to get involved with?

I support a lot of charities, I think you know, I find it very difficult to say no even for a relatively small cheque when the letters come in, because if you do take the trouble to read the letters, you know, everyone can make a case and life is very short and I think if one can, you know, you can’t support everything. The Variety Club came about as someone I knew in the industry who was heavily involved with Variety Club and invited me to a couple of dos and got me involved.

Who was that then?

A man called Richard Lawson, had a shirt business, Tern Shirts which I don’t think are around now. Quite an interesting character, very much an action man. Oh physically very much a – raced offshore power boats and all this sort of nonsense. Not my line of country as you may have gathered. We went away ski-ing together, I can’t even ski let alone snowboard and all of that nonsense. So it was just through him, he was just someone that I knew and then I found I knew a few other people who were also involved and that’s how these things happen.

And are you still involved? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 76 C1046/011 Track 8

Not heavily these days. I don’t sit on any of the committees. We attend – Patricia and I – attend a few functions as and when we can and a particularly good friend of ours is due to become Chief Barker, which is the Great Panjandrum in the Sky.

Who’s that?

A man called – oh, having said that, a great friend, I must never – I’ve reached this age where, you know, names don’t come easily and I shall revert to that question when we can in a moment, so this is another reason why this tape cannot be released for now twenty years. [laughs] No, it’s interesting, that’s absolutely barmy isn’t it? There is that rather, not quite naughty story, that says you know, there are four stages in a man’s life when he, as far as his memory is concerned. The first stage is when he forgets names. The second stage is when he forgets faces. The third stage is when he forgets to zip up and the fourth stage is when he forgets to zip down. [laughs]

[laughs]

That’ll teach you to ask. And the man’s name is Ronnie Nathan, his wife is Lynn, they’re lovely people and we’re very good friends with them and in his year I will, both Patricia and I will try and support a lot more than we can, but that’s just one of those things we’re involved with.

Okay. I’m gonna take you right back now, to the time when you were evacuated.

Oh golly, I thought we long since…

No.

I don’t see where this is relevant...

Oh it is.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 77 C1046/011 Track 8

…to the fashion industry, but not having heard the question, I shouldn’t have made that statement should I?

Erm…

She shook her head at that moment.

Last time you were talking about how you felt, you said you missed your family but not necessarily your home life when you were evacuated and you were in the first house which was a very different home to where you’d come from.

Uh hm.

And I was interested, you gave a sort of brief description of that home to use, but could you, were there any objects in that home, anything or things that made an impression on you?

I think first and foremost is it that it was relatively large compared with the two rooms that four of us lived in in Bethnal Green, it had a thatched roof, it was relatively modern, it had a large – I suppose the memory plays tricks, maybe I wouldn’t regard it as particularly large front garden now, but it was a very large front garden then. Everything was beautiful, clean, quiet, one had one’s own room. Although it didn’t have electricity, it had – one of the things I do remember that you switched the lights on with a button. What it was, it was a sort of gas, it was gas lighting but it was fired by battery with a button. And these are the sort of things that leave memories, you know, sort of leave a mark on your memory. The other thing, it was also a very large, relatively large chicken farm. I was last there I suppose about fifteen years ago, went back to have a look around and went along to the house, which of course – well now it’s all built up round there anyway, ‘cos all that land, the Hemingfords, the Huntingdon area which is now within commuting distance of London, it’s all very, very much different and very, very built up. One could hardly recognise it. As I said before, being an incurable romantic I just love to go back, just as I go back to the East End. I do that once or twice a year, going back to Hemingford Abbots Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 78 C1046/011 Track 8 and Hemingford Grey, I do that once every fifteen years, or maybe twenty, depending on when I go back next.

Did you manage to get into the house to have a look, or were you just…?

No, I just sort of, we spoke, I think I rang the doorbell or knocked on the knocker or whatever is one had to undertake to get the occupant’s attention and just said, you know, I was sort of here during the war and just having a look, I hope, you know, you don’t mind, I’m not a burglar or anything like that, I’m just having a look on the outside. She said, ‘No, please’ and just left it at that.

And, you talked about the relationship that you had with the couple that lived there.

Mm.

What did they do, what did the husband do?

Nothing, I think he played golf. [laughs] I think this was part of the problem, that you know, had – I might have mentioned last time – it was the name of Layton and he was the younger brother, there was a very famous double singing act in the pre-war years called Turner and Layton and he was the younger brother of Layton. But I think very much middle class as one would define it in those days looking back, and as I say, I don’t think he had a job as such really, but had married a woman I think something older than himself as I recall now, who obviously did have money and I suppose life was very comfortable. And a) it was very comfortable and b) being the younger partner, presumably and as I say, this is looking back sixty, seventy odd years ago, or certainly sixty plus years ago, trying to make sense of a situation then, trying to rationalise it now, may not be the rational thing to try and do. But I suppose they also felt that you know, if there was to be an inheritance, the last thing he wanted was an adopted son.

D’you really think that was…

Oh most certainly. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 79 C1046/011 Track 8

So there was a lot of money involved?

I would have thought so. I mean to say I remember going back shortly after the war and having dinner with them or tea with them or something and I remember in those days, we’re talking about 1947, forty-eight, in those days he was still, he was running a Jaguar, so obviously there was money there.

So what were the things around the home that made some sort of impression on you?

Don’t really remember. The only thing I did remember is that I used to get a sixpenny National Savings stamp every week for laying the table. That I do remember. I think I may even have a page of them somewhere at home.

And, can you give us a visual portrait of Layton and his wife?

That’s difficult, because the portrait I give will be clouded by time and perception. He, start with him, I suppose five nine, average build, glasses, dark hair. Seem to remember he wore plus fours quite a lot. She, I think not swarthy but not fair haired, dark haired and just generally brunette rather than blonde. She, I seem to remember, was a very warm, round-faced, matronly, grey-haired but you know, very sweet.

What did she wear?

Clothes. [laughs] That I can’t really remember. That I can’t really remember.

But as a personality you felt a warmth there?

Very much so. Well I think, you know, relationships, good or bad are formed by two people and their feelings towards each other. Now, this is not only, this can happen in blood relationships. I only have one sibling, I have a sister I feel warm towards, but I’m sure, in a larger family you can feel warm towards one of your siblings but animosity towards another. So I think a lot depends on the relationship between any two people. So Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 80 C1046/011 Track 8 for her, yes I felt affection. For him, I don’t really know, I don’t think I was in any way antagonistic, I was too young to understand that, but I knew he wasn’t a friend. [laughs]

Did you, when you were that age, have any kind of feeling about the fact that he didn’t appear to work?

Not at all. Not at all. Going into that environment not having experienced it before, it was just the way things were. Now I say that he didn’t have, he appeared not to have to work, he may have been doing some vital war work, I don’t know.

But you didn’t get a sense of a man should work and so on?

Not really. Because it was so totally different, and don’t forget, we’re talking now, I’d have been about seven or eight years of age, so one hasn’t had a breadth of experience at that age really and you come into this totally different environment, you know, you accept all of it for what it is. Certainly in my situation it never occurred to me to challenge or even to question – I think to question is a better word than to challenge.

Did you keep in touch with your family while you were away?

Oh yes. Yes, we wrote. Well, my mother got someone to write for her, obviously – well not obviously, but I think I’ve mentioned earlier that, you know, her command of the English language was probably less adequate than mine. She got someone to write – oh yes, we had letters and oh yes, there was that and I can remember, yes I can remember, on a couple of occasions my mother and sister came to stay for a couple of days, they made them very welcome.

In that house?

In the house, yes. We’ve got pictures at home of it. Tiny little, you know, nothing like you have today, but these tiny little photos. We’ve still got some of those at home. My mother, rest her soul, Lilian and myself. So we’ve still got, you know, there are still some, you know, more than just memories. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 81 C1046/011 Track 8

So how did they treat your mother?

Very well indeed, as I recall. I don’t think she’d have come back for a second time. They gave her a chicken to – I always remember they gave her a chicken to bring back and she brought back a live chicken to London I believe. So, you know, no I think that side of it was fine.

D’you know how your sister Lilian felt about the fact that you were evacuated and she wasn’t?

I would, no idea. Lilian and I have never discussed it. But no, it’s one of those things that, we’ve never even discussed it. Interesting point you make because I suppose I was young and she was that much younger. So really, you know, it’s, for her, she’s what? Three or four years of age, you know, that’s the way of life. That’s the norm.

And yet she knew that you were her brother?

Only because she was told.

You mentioned before that you couldn’t remember her arrival?

Not really, no.

And when you came back from your last period of evacuation, back home, how did you relate to your family?

Not very closely to my father I’m afraid who by then was – I think I mentioned - was much older than my mother and I think was aging rapidly. So didn’t relate terribly well to him but certainly related very well to my mother and to my sister.

So your father was aging rapidly, what d’you mean by that?

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He wasn’t well and I think he died of some sort of a heart disease and you know, there was just no communication.

And with your mother and sister, what did you tell them about your experiences?

Never really talked about it. There was nothing there to be talked about. That was past, that was done, that’s what was. You learn at a relatively early age when you’re living through those particular times that you adapt, you roll with the punches.

I’m curious what you did talk about?

I think so am I. [laughs] I don’t honestly know. Obviously we talked, but I cannot – I can remember talking to my mother in those days, but I cannot remember the content of any single conversation. Or even with my sister I speak to on a very regular basis on the telephone, although we live comparatively near, it’s just far enough away sort of for it not to be convenient to pop in every now and then, but I think that all relationships of that nature, be they relations or friendships don’t rely on seeing each other every day of the week or even speaking to each other every other week. True friendships and true relationships rely on being able to pick up where you left off, be it – I had an experience three or four years ago. A very good friend of mine who I actually worked with as well for a while, hadn’t seen for twenty-five years or more and purely coincidentally – I won’t go into the details of what, why, when or how, nothing nasty or naughty about it, it was just one of those things that happened – and he happened to mention that this guy was doing a cabaret for him and I said, ‘How is he, I’ve not seen him in years. Must be twenty-five, thirty years’ and I said, ‘Look, here’s my card, ask him to give me a call if you haven’t got his details’. He called me and we picked up. We see each other, we speak at least once a week now. He’s a very good comedian and he had a hit record in the sixties called Mockingbird Hill, the Migil Five, and okay, we were chums at about that time and we just picked up as though, it was just as though we’d not seen each other for a month. Now that’s friendship.

How is that?

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A man called Mike Felix.

And he’s doing cabaret?

He does cabaret, you know, he’s a comedian, very, very good singer, very good pianist.

So what have you got in common that makes you…?

We laugh a lot, we laugh a lot, we laugh at each other’s jokes. Or I laugh at his jokes, ‘cos his jokes are much better than mine, and he’s a great musician and singer and we enjoy each other’s company. We were thrown together because he came to work at Moss Bros when I was still a comparatively junior – and we’ll get round to that period of my life, ‘cos I think if we’re going to talk about my career in more detail it was about that, you know, round about that time. But he worked, we worked together for about four or five months, an immediate affinity between us, and then he got a job with the group and that was it. But we stayed in touch, and yeah, we stay in touch, we ring each other every twenty-five years and… [laughs]

But, your jokes…

No, we won’t talk about – we’re not gonna kill this stone dead with my jokes because they are awful, they are awful and they’re generally cribbed from other people as well. You know, the sort of jokes that amuse me is a guy that had been out to a very, very good dinner and was driving home on the motorway and his wife said, you know, ‘Be careful’ she said, ‘there’s some lunatic driving the wrong way up a motorway’ and he said, ‘One, there’s hundreds of ‘em’. Now that to me is a funny gag. [laughs]

I was waiting for a punchline. [laughs]

No that is it. That is it, if you can visualise him going up the wrong way… [laughs]

[laughs] Did you, as a boy did you make, try to make other people laugh?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 84 C1046/011 Track 8

Not really. Not really, no I was just a very shy kid. Not good at anything and just, you know, if I could sort of merge into the background, I was so happy.

So at a certain point in your life you’ve changed quite a lot?

Oh you’ve noticed. [laughs]

Did that happen, you know, can you pinpoint a time when it started to change for you?

Yeah. I think there were two stages; one when I was twenty-five and then again when I was just, oh, 1960, I’d have been in my late twenties, early thirties and I can pinpoint both of those times and the funny thing, the thing that made me change most of all, I used to be terribly shy, particularly shy of girls, very – loved girls, but very, very shy. Frighteningly so, you know, when I look back, and yet, it was when I started to lose my hair that I became so confident. Now, don’t try, don’t ask me to rationalise it, maybe you can, but I certainly can’t rationalise it, maybe somebody in this building can, but I can’t rationalise why it happened. But that was also something that was a fundamental change in my life.

So when did that happen?

Oh, [inaudible] [laughs] No, I suppose it started, oh, in my mid twenties. It started to recede then and gradually and as I say, it just didn’t, but it did bother me at first and I think you’ll find that most males do feel, you know, something about losing their hair, you know, it’s a very important part, you know. The last thing you do when you’re…

[End of Track 8]

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[Track 9]

…you go out in the evening, it’s comb your hair, this is the thing, you know. I still do. An exercise in futility, but having said that, old habits die hard. But no, just you know, I think it’s those three things somehow that came together and suddenly changed.

Three things?

The three things as I say, it’s what happened at the age of twenty-five, then something happened again and during that period the hair loss as well.

Are you gonna tell me what the things that happened were?

In the fullness of time, when we get round to doing things, when we start to go through that period. At the moment we’re still going through me at the age of seven. [laughs]

This is true. In the first session you mentioned something called, I think it was boys’ club?

Very important part of my life, and still is. September the sixth I think it is, we shall have our annual reunion. It used to be every two years, but the way they’re, we’re all dropping off now, we do it every year because we’re losing so many each and every year. There were a number of boys’ clubs in the East End; there was Oxford and St George’s which was over in Stepney, Commercial Road. That was, St George’s was the area that it was in and that was started by undergraduates and graduates from Oxford University. Various other clubs were started by people of that type who felt they wanted to put something back into the East End of London for youngsters. The club I joined was Cambridge and Bethnal Green Boys’ Club which was started by graduates from Cambridge University. And I joined that in the period before the doodlebugs started, so it’ll be forty-four, and then sort of got back to it after the war. I still have relationships, friendships with people – I don’t know if I mentioned, but they’ve got one guy particularly, he’s got the prime pitch at Royal Ascot – or I don’t know if he’ll have it when they’ve rebuilt it – for flowers. Now he got this prime pitch in car park number one, which is the car park and we’ve been fortunate enough to get a spot there over the years and people can’t understand why this flower Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 86 C1046/011 Track 9 seller and I throw our arms round each other and you know, just can’t, you know and his son’s there and his grandson’s there and they say, ‘Oh look at them, they’ve seen each again’. We see each other twice a year – Ascot, we didn’t this year because it was up at York and they didn’t go up there. But you know, you’ve got those relationships – Markie can hardly walk now…

What’s his other name, sorry?

Martin Markie. And there are a number of others just like that. And these are relationships, these are bonds that they mean nothing, yet they mean everything, they’re the past. And it’s so great, you know, and first thing you do, you see who’s still alive [laughing] when we get to the reunion, you know, who’s still living and who’s shuffled off this mortal coil. And the boys’ clubs, the boys’ club over the years produced some interesting people. There was a guy called, man John Diamond who was an East End boy who went on to become a Treasury minister, became Lord Diamond. He was one of the boys’ club boys. Then you go right to the other side, Tony Hiller, one of the Hiller boys, started a couple of groups called Bucks Fizz and Brotherhood of Man, but you know, a typical East End group of guys, all of whom did different things in their lives and with their lives. In the early days shortly after the war, up to about the fifties, it was always reckoned on the night that Cambridge and Bethnal Green Boys’ Club had their reunion you couldn’t get a cab in London because two or three hundred taxis would be off the road ‘cos so many of the boys were taxi drivers. [laughs]

So, where does the reunion take place?

It’s been in a variety of places. Now it takes place in a hotel just the other side, just the other side of the Euston Road on the left-hand side, at a hotel.

And what happens during the reunion?

A certain amount of drinking, an enormous amount of reminiscing, an enormous amount of reminiscing, and just talking generally, catching up, what are you doing, de-dum, de- dum. A few speeches, which are mercifully brief, and a last word, someone, Tony Hiller’s Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 87 C1046/011 Track 9 brother Irving also does a bit of cabaret work so he and Tony, they do a sort of comedy piece at the end just to say goodnight and we all say goodnight and God willing, we’ll see each other again next year if not before. But very, very, very important.

I was just wondering, you know, people have different attitudes to reunions don’t they? Like those of us who may not feel very successful in our lives sometimes are wary of going to something like a reunion. D’you think that people go to the boys’ club reunion who…

I think – I can’t speak for those that don’t go, can’t speak for those that don’t go, but I do know that those that do come, we’re all from different walks of life, but when we get there, we’re all the same kids. That’s the same mindset. That’s the mindset that matters Anna, that when you go back, it’s a non-competitive environment.

That’s a very different thing to how most people live their professional lives though isn’t it?

Professional life is something entirely different. We touch on peer pressure; I think there’s peer pressure in professional life. I think there’s peer pressure once you get into taking exams and what have you. Thank God I only took a couple of scholarships – one I failed, obviously didn’t get through. The second one I got, although we couldn’t follow through with that as much as we wanted – although it did contribute to my life. So you never had those pressures. These were guys together. And as I say, it was just very much a part of your life.

So where was the base for the Cambridge Bethnal Green…?

Originally it was in Chance Street, which is just off Bethnal Green Road and it started in 1924. It then moved from Chance Street, I think it moved from Chance Street to what was then Hare Street, but has latterly – or thirty odd years ago – became Cheshire Street, which leads from Brick Lane going east I think, whatever it is, I have no sense of direction, that’s why I have to leave two hours before our meeting to get here because I have no sense of direction. And then latterly finished up in Virginia Road School, which is just off Shoreditch. The sad thing about that is it still continued to run and was a place where lots Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 88 C1046/011 Track 9 and lots of boys came, but the local Council, local authority decided that it had to be used for an ethnic minority school and the club was closed.

So it’s closed entirely?

Yup. So, very sad, don’t want to dwell on that one because I’ve got very strong views, I think it’s equally, my view is I think it’s equally – if you’ve got an environment where you’re taking thirteen to eighteen year old young males off the street, getting them involved in sport, in all those activities and they want to come and they want to be part of it and you close that, I happen to feel fairly strongly about that. I mean I’m sure the case for its purpose now can be made equally strongly, I’m subjective in my view because I benefited so much from it, but I’m also conscious of the problems that we face in inner London and other cities – not necessarily cities, unfortunately these days – and it was serving a purpose, but the decision was taken and that was it.

Who took that decision?

Local authority, I’d assume.

So, where was the premises when you went?

It was in Hare Street in the old Webbe building. Almost, almost opposite Bethnal Green station – not the Bethnal Green tube coming up towards the Cambridge Heath Road, but the Bethnal Green line that runs out of Liverpool Street, why I know my East End railways. [laughs]

Can you describe the building?

Yeah, it was a largish building. I suppose today it would have made wonderful loft flats. Again, because again, this concept of space is interesting because if most of your life you’ve lived in fairly restrictive space, anything that you go into or you went into does seem relatively large and I think that happens with all youngsters anyway, but more so depending on the circumstances in which you’ve, and the environment in which you’ve Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 89 C1046/011 Track 9 grown. So it was a very well served building because it was previously, also been used by a club called the Webbe, which was another boys’ club, very good boxing club in those days, I don’t think it’s around any more now, but for some reason we were brought into that building in the forties and then I think the Webbe Club took it back. The interesting, strange coincidence about Chance Street was that when the synagogue in Bethnal Green, the Bethnal Green Synagogue was bombed, the temporary synagogue was in Chance Street, which is where I had my confirmation, my bar mitzvah. So what goes around… just one of those silly coincidences apropos of nothing, and yet apropos of something, because I was never a member of the club during its time at Chance Street, but I can relate to Chance Street having sort of been to synagogue there. It’s funny how these things work out.

Can you tell us more about the inside of that building?

What, the Chance Street?

The one in Hare Street.

The one in Hare Street. Not really, it was very well serviced, there was a very nice canteen, it had large enough rooms for table tennis tables, full size snooker tables. It was probably an old warehouse, thinking back on it now, and the concrete stairs and the concrete floors and the open spaces. Thinking back on it Anna, I think it was probably an old warehouse, so it had space.

So, pool tables?

In those days there weren’t pool tables, no. We’re talking, it had one, maybe two snooker tables or billiards tables, but pool was not a game.

Not yet.

Pool was not a game for young East End gentlemen.

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Really?

Also [laughs], and we were very much, in those days clubs tended to be, boys’ clubs tended to be sectarian. We were one of the first clubs to be non-sectarian. Sectarian in terms of Jewish and non-Jewish.

What was the mix?

Hard to define. I think it was pretty evenly balanced. I can remember chums from both sides. If anything, probably slightly more Jewish than non-Jewish, because there were lots of the non-Jewish clubs around as well for boys to go to, whereas we had relatively fewer to go to, so I suppose – and also, if you’re part of an ethnic minority, there is an element of, you know, hanging together with your own kind. But as I say, the great thing about it was that it was non-sectarian.

That was part of the ethos of the…

Yup. It started with a guy called Lenny Saunders, who married one of the Hiller sisters, back in the mid thirties I think and he became a member and you know, it was felt that he was, you know, why shouldn’t he be a member and from that moment on – I don’t know the actual, the rationale, what, why, when or how. Unfortunately Lenny’s – I hope he’s still around – but getting very old and very tired, but it was lovely because, you know, whenever I used to see any of these guys, one of the nice things that used to happen is that when I was running Moss Bros, a lot of them as I say were cab drivers, when they dropped a fare at Moss Bros, would leave the cab and come up and have a cup of tea. And they loved coming through the two secretaries’ office before they reached me and anyone who was relatively new and didn’t really know what it was all about could never understand these cab drivers that used to come up and have a cup of tea and the roars of laughter, you know, that used to be going on in this huge office that I occupied.

Who ran boys’ club?

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They were run by, again, well meaning middle class people. They were called the managers. One of the great managers, certainly of Oxford and St George’s, was a man called Basil, Basil Henriques, he’s a great man of the East End of London. And he would have a team of people. Now Cambridge and Bethnal Green was started by Roland and George Lotinga, a very wealthy family, and George married Harry Moss’s daughter. Harry Moss was also a manager of a club and it was Harry Moss who was then Chairman and Managing Director of Moss Bros that brought me into Moss Bros as an apprentice tailor. So that’s how it all comes together. This is the continuity that runs through, the thread that runs through my life.

And while you were at boys’ club, what was the sort of age range of the boys at any one time?

You’d have, you’d go, I think I said before, just as it was when you were asking about the age range when they were at Virginia Road, it would go, there were junior, senior – I don’t think there were in between times – but it was very, it was well structured because you had a junior captain, a senior captain, you had junior committee, senior committee and there was an element of discipline, committee members could put people in the discipline book, they’d have to come before the committee, they could be suspended for a week, and it was a way of coming into a formal structure if you like. Very interesting, that aspect of it when I look back on it now. So I suppose the first time you’re operating within a self- disciplining structure.

Let’s rewind a minute – can you remember your actual first day going to the boys’ club?

Yes. I remember going in, we can probably date it this way as well, because if my memory isn’t playing tricks, I went into the manager’s office, a man called Harry Titchener, what appeared to be a largish office, I saw a guy called Maxie Lea who is now registrar for the old boys and was made an MBE for his services to the boys’ club, for keeping it alive and the ethos and the culture of it, and was seeing him sitting there, and there was a radiogram and I think the record that was playing was the Oscar winning song with Crosby, Swinging on a Star. That I – I can’t remember anything really after that of significance, just on ordinary running matters, but that I can remember clearly. I still talk to Maxie about it, Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 92 C1046/011 Track 9

Maxie can’t remember it, but there, he’s getting old. [laughs] Not a young stripling like me of seventy-three.

So, how did you know about it to go there in the first place?

School friends.

Which were the friends that brought you there?

Who was it? D’you know I can’t, I honestly can’t remember. It’s interesting. I can remember the motto of the club, we still talk about it now, Serve Corpus Coli Mentum Anam Incurus – keep fit, cultivate your mind, think of yourself, something like that. I’ll remember, well we’ll come back to this after I’ve been to the reunion. [laughs]

[laughs] Yeah. When is the reunion, by the way?

The sixth, I think it’s the sixth of September. Very, very shortly.

So, you went to see the manager and then, were you taken…

Went before the committee, then you had to learn the rules, learn the – oh yes, then you had to go through a test and you had to answer questions.

What sort of questions?

Those I can’t – you certainly had to know, you had to know the motto, both in English and Latin. You might be asked questions about – not searching questions, but enough questions, you know, questions that wouldn’t sort of blow you out of the water but were an indication that you’d given some thought.

Such as?

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Such as, you know, can’t really remember, but you know, keeping fit, you know a fit mind is as important as a fit body. And very, very simple questions, but just enough again, to give it that sense of importance, that it wasn’t just, you were gonna become a member whatever happened, once I look back on it. But you know, you were made to feel that it’s something that you had to aspire to and work for. And again, this put a greater value on it.

Was there any kind of joining ceremony or…?

No, no initiation, nothing of that nature. You know, you were in, you were awarded – the only initiation ceremony was when you were given your badge and put it in your lapel and that was a great moment.

What’s the badge like?

It’s a shield, Cambridge blue edge with yellow in between and a diagonal – I’m not sure which diagonal, whether it’s the bastard or the non-bastard variation of the diagonal in heraldry practice – and C and B G across it – Cambridge and Bethnal Green, we used to call it, come and be good.

So, was there any other kind of item of clothing that you had to wear?

No. No, that was never, there was no aspect of uniform. Yes, I’m sorry, there was. But this only came about after the war when rationing finished, because clothes rationing was very important, but then, there was a pre-war club tie and then there was a post-war club tie and you were expected to buy a club tie. But that wasn’t until clothes rationing finished and production manufacturing started. So I think rationing – I can’t remember when clothes rationing finished. I’m sure there’s someone else who’s spoken on this programme that would have remembered when rationing – probably the minister who might have been responsible for it at the time, I don’t know. But it would have been late forties, early fifties.

And can you describe that tie?

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I can bring one along – I think I’ve still got one of those that I got from someone, one of the originals, which when I try and tie it now looks like a little bootlace. It’s dark blue, with a light blue, light yellow banding across it. Again, I’m not sure whether it’s bastard or the other way. [laughs]

But you wore these things with pride?

Oh very much so, very much – went to sleep in them. [laughs] Not quite.

Would you have worn them outside of those premises?

Probably, yes.

Where to?

Oh, wherever one went. Oh yes, if one wore a suit, say going to synagogue for high holy days or something like that, so you’d have worn that tie. It was a smart tie and you were proud of it.

And it would mark you out from boys who weren’t members?

Not necessarily, but it’s what it meant to you as an individual, it wasn’t meant to, let’s say it wasn’t a Garrick tie, which shrieks and says, look everybody, I’m a member of the Garrick. It’s not that sort of tie at all. Or an MCC tie, not the sort of, the one with the MCC on it, but the custard and sick or whatever it is they call it. That and the Garrick tie really do shriek out, look everybody, this is me.

So, after you’d been to the committee, learnt the rules et cetera – were you then taken to an activity room?

Oh yeah, you were then put in a house. There were four houses; Gloucester – the four royal houses – Gloucester, Kent, York and Cornwall. I was in Cornwall. And there were activities every night, there was photography one night, topical talks another night, all Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 95 C1046/011 Track 9 sorts of different – there was a programme of events and you were expected to go to two or three. There was also competition between the houses, which sort of again, within the club itself there was that element of competition which was also good and it was fun. There were football teams in the houses – in those days you had enough youngsters coming in so you had cricket matches between the houses, football matches between the houses and it was really great to be part of.

So how many boys were members at any one time?

I think at one time, wouldn’t really remember, but I think we’re talking fifty, sixty, seventy, maybe more. Not everyone came every night, you know, those nights you particularly wanted to, the table tennis was available, there was snooker, billiards available and these were all not only played for fun, but they were also all part of the competition between the houses.

Table tennis, snooker – were there any other kind of sort of objects within the premises that you can remember – was there, you know, any kind of furnishings or something that…?

Not really, we did have I think – ‘cos Harry Titchener who was leader of the club at the time was a professional photographer as well, so I think we did have a darkroom so those boys that were doing photography learnt how to develop negative, how to put the stuff in, how to develop pictures, you know, go in the darkroom, get the film out – you know, you could really learn about those various aspects.

So which activities did you go for?

Played a bit of table tennis, which wasn’t too bad, but it’ll come as no great surprise to you that I went for drama.

It is a surprise actually.

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Really? I went for drama and was fortunate enough to have done rather well at it. Won some medals and had the opportunity of joining the National Association of Boys’ Clubs Youth Theatre, but couldn’t do it because I was working at that age. So did it rather well. Did better at classic, the Shakespeare, did that reasonably well, did restoration, School for Scandal and played Charles Surface in School for Scandal which was great fun.

But you said you were a very shy character.

But I could lose myself in – I was shy in terms of personal relationships and I don’t know why that was, but put me on a stage, give me an audience and give me a set of lines to learn and I could lose myself in the character.

So, were you involved in performances?

Very much so. I’ve still got, I think I’ve still got one of my medals that I won in 1948, which I played King John, one of the lesser known Shakespearian pieces.

So what was that like to be on stage, can you describe the feeling?

Oh it’s a great feeling, the feeling of trepidation is it gives you a real buzz. In those days there were competitions, you had the London Association of Boys’ Clubs which was a pretty big competition, it could go on for a week before you reached the finals. And there’d be three or four performances a night and you’d be adjudicated by a professional adjudicator in front of the audience and you know, sometimes it hurt, sometimes it didn’t. But you know, again it was character building I suppose. Then if you got through to the finals then there was the final adjudication.

So you’d be judged individually rather than as a…

No, you’d be judged both. There would be the performance of the cast and the production as a whole and then on individual performance.

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Able to get into the part, I think.

Were you ever called on to cry on stage or anything very emotional like that?

Emotional? I’m trying to think. Other than show anger – I played Cassius in The Night Before Philippi, Phylippi, however it’s pronounced, these days don’t even remember. Pretty emotional, but if anything I was happy to underplay and get the results that way, rather than camp it up rotten. [laughs] But I could, if called upon, could do it.

So, would your mother and sister have come to watch you?

Yes. Always remember also, in 1947, 1948, there was still a theatre called the Scala Theatre. It’s now in Tottenham, back of Tottenham Court Road, Scala Street where I think they’ve got studios or something there now, there was a fairly big production done by London Boys’ Club which I had a small part in, don’t remember what the…

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[Track 10]

…part was even these days, but I know it was in front of Princess Margaret and in those days that was a very big deal. I was offered a part in that, albeit a small part.

Did you meet her?

No.

So, you’ve mentioned a few friends that you are still in contact with through the reunions and so on, but at the time, can you describe the friends that you were involved with?

There’s, I suppose, Joey Monger who I see, him and his elder brother who I wasn’t quite so close to, although I do see now also at reunions. Just ordinary guys, I can’t even remember what they did. Saw Bobby Shachter who was a pretty good friend. Barry Gendler who was a pretty close friend who is a cab driver and an inveterate gambler. [laughs] I suppose these are guys that I remember because I’ve seen them recently.

So, they were, the idea was that you became good gentlemen?

We became good, industrious, but I don’t think any of us aspired towards being a gentleman in the broadest sense of the word, but we were encouraged to believe that we had a role to play in society, but not necessarily to get ideas above our station, but to be ambitious.

Outside of boys’ club, what sort of social things were you doing?

Hard to remember, so much of it was based round the club. It was I suppose round about that time, until I had my first serious girlfriend, I then became, they formed Bethnal Green Youth Committee and for some reason I was asked if I would go along and represent the club and I finished up being Chair of that. So even at a disgustingly early age, in those situations I found I could not necessarily be a – I suppose I was, certainly more assertive than the rest – and even at that age, and that would be at the age of sixteen, I sort of Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 99 C1046/011 Track 10 started, I was chairing that and again we had a youth day. Funnily enough, when we had our special day for that, Princess Margaret came along to that, but I didn’t actually spend time – I met her a couple of times after that – but didn’t actually really spend a great deal of time with her until many, many, many years later in New York, at the Pier Hotel when we took the first Marc Bohan collection to New York for the American Committee for Sadler’s Wells, which she was President, she was President and I sat next to her throughout lunch and the fashion show itself. As she got deeper into her cups, so she became more tolerable. [laughs] And I’ll say no more than that, because I refuse to speak ill of the dead. [laughs] So over the years we’ve met some interesting people.

You’ve mentioned music a few times – what did music mean to you when you were a teenager?

I liked music. I like popular music. You know, music appealed to me; first popular music, then gradually got more into modern jazz. Probably one of the greatest thing to have – I don’t know how deeply you are into jazz or not even into jazz at all, but there used to be a wonderful group called Jazz at the Philharmonic, run by a man called Norman Granz. People like Ella Fitzgerald sang in it, she was the singer, it was fantastic. But they never came to the UK because there was this union embargo, you had to have American – American musicians weren’t let into this country because English musicians weren’t good enough, allegedly, so to play in the States. I always remember – to digress a moment – being bitterly disappointed. A certain gentleman who was the Down Beat, I think he was Down Beat poll jazz pianist of the year, came to the Palladium and we were bitterly disappointed when he stood on stage and all he could do was sing. His name was Nat King Cole. [laughs] Unbelievable when you look back at it now. But Jazz at the Phil, and all the great names, unbelievable – Charlie Shavers, Roy Eldridge, Oscar Peterson the pianist, fantastic. Never heard them and then in 1953 they, we had these terrible floods on the east coast which killed a lot of people, and Jazz at the Phil were allowed to play two charity concerts at the Gaumont State – the building is still there, but in those days you had these super cinemas that sat a thousand plus people – always remember going along to that, it was wonderful.

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What about the floods or the…

No, the show.

The show, ah. Well first of all, they did two houses, couldn’t get a ticket for either, but I went there and got one at the door. I was on my own, sat there with a group of people, very nice girl next to me offered me a cigarette and I was too shy – I took the cigarette - was too shy to follow up in those days – but the place went wild, because no-one, or maybe one per cent of that audience over the two shows maybe, would have had a chance to have heard those people either in Europe, let alone in the States, and here they were, these legendary names, out on stage. And you couldn’t believe you were seeing and hearing them live.

What was the cinema like?

Oh very grand, beautiful. There were about half a dozen, you had two things in those days, you had your West End theatres and your variety theatres and then you had your number one circuit theatres and cinemas, the Gaumont State was one. What is now I think the Rainbow Room in Finsbury Park was one of the big major cinemas and they were very grand, very art deco, very lush, very plush. Manager, particularly always in the evening, always wore a dinner jacket. Would be standing front of house in a dinner jacket. And you have the same thing with the big variety theatres, you know, a lot of the major American acts would start with the Palladium and then do Finsbury Park Empire, which was a number one house, then they’d go up to Manchester or Blackpool number one houses and it was a lovely scene in those days.

So who else did you see?

Saw the first night of Frank Sinatra when Ava Gardner was in the box.

What was that like?

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Brilliant. All I can remember – funnily enough, we were talking about this a couple of weeks ago, I don’t know for why – I always remember the two encore numbers that he sang and he sang Body and Soul and Night and Day – they were the two encores that he sang. Trying to think who the other people – don’t come readily to mind, but they were two that did.

What would you have worn when you went out on a night like that?

Probably a sports jacket, something like that, pair of grey flannels.

Was it…

The only sports jacket, the only pair of grey flannels.

But you did your best to look smart?

Oh yeah, oh very much so. Very much so. From a relatively early age, I’ve always liked clothes, even when we couldn’t have them, always liked them and tried to make whatever one had [laughing] look as good as possible.

I think in the first session you linked your interest in clothes with girls – is that true?

Yeah. I wanted to appeal to girls, I wanted to be attractive to girls, but I was too shy to do anything about it and I think my first sort of great romance in my life only came about because she made the first approach.

Tell me more.

Now we do have to embargo this for ten years. Always remember she, very pretty girl, worked in a baker’s shop in New Row which runs alongside Moss Bros in – well, what was the old Moss Bros, which is now a Tesco Metro store – that narrow turning that runs down to St Martin’s Lane, between the apex of Bedford Street, King Street and a tiny little turning that runs down. A place called Central London Bakeries. I was, part of my job as Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 102 C1046/011 Track 10 an apprentice tailor was to go out and get the tea and also to go out and buy the rolls and sandwiches, and she worked in the baker’s shop there. And you know, I used to go in there, I was happy to go in there just to see her and I suppose she tried to always make sure she served me as often as possible and she gradually got me talking and you know, then we started going out.

What was she like?

Not dissimilar to you in many respects.

What does that mean?

Dark, very, very attractive, dark, dark haired. Yeah, just very, very attractive girl – I think I still have a photo of her at home somewhere, Patricia hasn’t got any hang-ups about all these girls. When I did start to go out with girls I got lots and lots of photographs, you know, when things changed, they really changed. [laughs] And we went out for a number of years – I think about eighteen months or so. But she was an Irish girl, wasn’t – a Protestant Irish girl, I was Jewish and it was one of those relationships that broke because it wasn’t going to go anywhere.

How far did it go?

Almost all the way, but not quite, but in those days one didn’t. [laughs] In those days one didn’t.

So, how did you learn about that side of life? Did your parents tell you anything about…

No, that was, that was something which was a very, very nice happening in my life. All I can say is that if anyone thinks that a teenage, an under sixteen year old boy’s relationship with a young married woman is a bad thing, let me tell you, it ain’t no bad thing and I’ll say no more than that. [laughs]

But I have to drag out of you… Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 103 C1046/011 Track 10

No, I’m sorry, there are certain things that are sacred. [laughs]

I mean…

Not that sacred, sacrosanct. I don’t know whether that’s a euphemism, one for the other, but…

But did you learn from friends, for example?

You learnt from friends, you learnt from talking, you learn that side of it and then suddenly something happens in your life if you’re fortunate enough to let you know what it’s really all about.

So how old were you when you started that relationship?

To have sex?

No. That relationship, before…

My relationship started long before my first love affair with this girl. I was very young, a very early teenager. Under the age of consent, let me put it that way.

So that was before this girl?

Yes.

So who was that girl, the early one?

The early one was someone I knew. [laughs]

And what was the nature of that relationship?

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For me it was great and obviously it wasn’t bad for her either. [laughs] It was a how was it for you – at that time I didn’t realise I was supposed to ask how was it for you. Now I’m not sure this is the way these conversations are meant to go, but you wanted to press it, so…

I mean, did you go out on dates or…

No.

Right. [pause]

Moving on quickly.

So, no, no, no. The first, the girlfriend from the bakery, what age were you when…/

When I started going out with Ethel, I think I’d have been late sixteen, early seventeen.

So, can you pinpoint, was it at that point, can we say, that you started to think how you could, you know, improve the way you looked, what you could wear, so on?

No, no, long before that. No, as I said, at a very early age, always wanted to look good. I mean to say we used to have socials at the club, they were called socials, where on a Wednesday night girls would come in and it would be a sort of as it were, there was a dance. Could never dance, loved music, but could never dance. But too, very shy to even talk to, even too shy to talk to girls. Which is why the relationship which we referred to, which we decided to talk no more about, was a very, very easy and straightforward one for me and very, you know, I think it should happen to every lad. I think the world would be a much better place.

D’you know what happened to her?

Not really, no.

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So, you knew that you wanted to look a certain way, and where did you get this image from?

I suppose one was influenced by, certainly as far as hair was concerned, by what the style was at the time, you had a bushy top and a DA, duck’s arse hair at the back where it was brushed together, you got the look of the time. Yellow socks were the thing in forty-seven, forty-eight, forty-nine, so you tried whatever you did to try and get a pair of yellow socks and whatever were – but always I like to think, and maybe the mind plays tricks, but I’d like to think I always tried also to get it together, not just to wear a certain, one particular item because it happened to be the in thing, irrespective of the rest of what I had, what little I did have. Even in those days, when I did buy a new shirt it was invariably a pale blue shirt.

Like you’re wearing today?

Mm. You may have seen on several other occasions, you know, I tend to wear a lot of plain blue shirts. I don’t know why, I think it’s a colour that works, it’s a lovely neutral colour that you can wear and you can accessorise to grey, you can accessorise it even to browns, light tans, you know, it’s just a lovely colour to wear. I do have shirts of other colours, but blue I find is the most serviceable and easy to accessorise colour. Certainly for a man.

So, were there magazines or film stars…?

I think film, I think it would have been – there wouldn’t have been, I can’t think of any magazine that one would have looked at in those days. And again in those formative days – you see we are talking Anna about early post-war years, have to remember this, this is always in the context of early post-war years where there were shortages. Where there were shortages so you used your clothing and your clothes rationing very, very carefully. So it was always helpful the fact, you know, although money was in short supply, so were clothing coupons, so you had the two constraints working both ends, so it was okay, you know. That did act up to a certain point as a leveller if you like, although clothing coupons were traded black market, as were all things of that nature. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 106 C1046/011 Track 10

How aware of the black market were you?

I was aware of it but never involved.

In what way were you aware, would you see things or…?

I’d see, I don’t know, friends, certain guys in the club would be involved, they’d have coupons for sale.

So with the shortages, does that mean that you would restrict yourself to essential items?

Oh yeah, well there was also the constraint of money anyway, so it wasn’t that painful. It wasn’t as though you had a bucketful of cash and no clothing coupons. So there were, you know, the dual constraints, so you know, you had the jacket a year, pair of trousers and then as one got a little bit older a suit, and then you know, by the time I was eighteen or nineteen, you know, things had begun to change a bit.

So, would you have gone to one of the shops that you’ve mentioned in the past to buy your own clothes?

Oh yeah, always remember – and a lovely bit of reminiscing on this one – there were two shops, just shortly after the war one of the big styles was spear point collars. They were collars that came right down there like spear points and I always remember being at a meeting with Terence Conran and some other people and for some reason, and it was supposed to have been, well it was a serious meeting, for some reason Terence and I suddenly started to talk about spear point collars and fortunately he was Chairman of the thing so no-one really said anything, but everyone thought we were stark raving mad, because, so Terence said to me, ‘Where did you go for yours?’ I said, ‘Well, first one I got from David’s in Charing Cross Road’. He said, ‘That’s where I got my first one, what colour did you get?’ ‘I got cream’ I said, ‘And then the second one I got from Cecil Gee, also in Charing Cross Road’. And, [laughing] you know, we were going off on a tangent… Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 107 C1046/011 Track 10

So…

And that was, there was a strong – in those days, a very, very strong American influence. A very strong American influence. There was no European influence as such. Europe, you know, both German and Italy, certainly Italy are sort of style formers these days in menswear, you know, they were countries that were sort of rebuilding after the war, they both had lost, they were in the fortunate position of having millions of dollars thrown at them to rebuild and we were struggling to keep alive in this country, but you know, history plays strange quirks in life, but that’s not the purpose of this conversation, but these are the things one remembers. So the influences, the influences – music was all based on American music, the big bands. It was all on that basis.

So was it Cecil Gee that was the…?

Cecil Gee really became the prime mover of American fashion. They captured – I find it hard to remember any other retailer, and the name of even any other retailer that one would go to. You know, at the end, they became the place to go to. They’d started life in the East End of London as well. I think the original shop was in the area called Black Lion Yard, which was very much near the diamond and gold trading area of the East End. Don’t know much about that at all, but I think that’s round about the area that it was. But as I say, old man Gee had seen the opportunity and had made it work.

Can you describe going into that shop?

Nirvana. [laughs] Nirvana. Feeling a little bit sad that one couldn’t get, not all of the merchandise, but if you were lucky you may just about have come out with one item. But the feeling of coming out with something, pure elation, pure elation.

Can you describe what we would see if you went in through the doors?

You’d see the range of shirts, you’d see the lovely jazzy ties, the jazzy preppy knitwear, the zoot suits with the wide shoulders. It was great; wide lapels. The silhouette in the mid Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 108 C1046/011 Track 10 to late forties was this very jazzy look, it was a very wide silhouette, so you had fairly broad shoulders, double-breasted jackets with wide lapels, large ties to go with wide lapels. Even in those – well not even in those days – but in menswear particularly, the silhouette tends to follow through. For instance, as the silhouette gets narrower, tighter, you go more to single-breasted, lapels get narrower, shoulders become narrower, so shirt collars become shallower, ties become narrower, trousers become narrower, so therefore shoes become narrower. And you get this whole silhouette changes and then it expands out again. And you see it happen season on season. It tends to be more, I think in many respects, tends to be an evolutionary process rather than a revolutionary process. So in womenswear this season we’ve got very much the peasant girl, the gypsy look, but you don’t get that sort of thing happen so much in menswear. There aren’t quite the dominating influences from the fabric producers that create womenswear looks that you get in menswear. I notice this year we’ve gone back more to button twos, last year we had button threes and I had the misfortune to go shopping, took Patricia to ask if she liked this one particular suit and came out with four more, three-button suits or suits in general, than decency says one should have. But on the other hand, having been deprived so long, I only hope I live long enough to wear last year season purchase out, let alone this season’s, which we’re gonna make [inaudible]. [laughs] Oh dear. So you know, so that was the look of the time. And there was a time when brown was a strong colour, which I suppose in many respects is because of the yellow socks, so you made sure you got hold of a decent pair of brown shoes.

You mentioned that film stars were sort of role models – can you mention some of their names that you were…?

Interestingly enough, no, it was more the look that they produced. One never sort of related to a film star as such, maybe Lassie in my case. [laughs]

But was it their sort of gangster sort of, the noir sort of thing?

There would have been an element of the noir stuff, because at that age one was influenced. Who were the great gangsters of that time – there was Cagney, there was Bogart who really were the key figures. I suppose one would have, someone like myself, Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 109 C1046/011 Track 10 if we subconsciously related to anyone, would have related more to Bogart than Cagney because one could identify more with him, slim, dark haired, as opposed to Cagney who was entirely different.

Did you go to the cinema much?

Oh not half. Oh cinema was so special. In those days you had, there were three main chains. There was the Odeon, the ABC and Gaumont – they were the main chains, they all had cinemas in every area. The programme changed twice a week; Mondays to Wednesdays and then Thursdays and Saturdays and then Sundays you had the different, films that may have been on in the past, they came on again and you went to as many as you could. You know, there was no television in those days, well there was television in those days, but very, very limited. So that was it. It was also a form of escapism. You know, again we’re talking about early post-war years. I’m not saying life was tragic, life was good if you think back at it, but you had to make a lot of what little there was available. And cinema, the queues outside the cinema were extraordinary and you had, there were the shillings and the one and nines which were downstairs and the two and threes, which were in the circle.

Would you go with friends?

Oh yeah, and then when you started dating you’d go with your girlfriend. And with a bit of luck you may even put your arm round her at a first or second date, you never knew what was gonna happen. [laughs]

But that did happen?

Eventually, yeah. In my case, when she grabbed my arm and put it round her shoulder. [laughs]

Really?

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It was almost like that. [laughs] When I think back it’s so amusing, but when I think it’s a lost opportunity, it’s heartbreaking, [laughing] but there you are.

So you said that for some people it was escapism, you know, different reasons for going, but what was it for you?

It was entertainment. It was a combination of escapism and entertainment.

And how often would you go?

As often as the exchequer would allow. As often as the exchequer would allow.

Every night?

Well no you wouldn’t because you wouldn’t want to go and see the same film. So yes, you could go every night, because you could go Monday ABC, Tuesday Gaumont, Wednesday Odeon and then Thursday the new programme, but one could never afford to do that. But it was largely escapism.

What was the – apart from girls – what was the part of the cinema experience that you really sort of got something from?

It’s hard to define, because thinking back one enjoyed such an eclectic mix of movies that I think in the main it really was escapism. One never related, I never saw myself as Humphrey Bogart, I never saw myself as Sinatra in the musicals, it was just lovely to see them. So again, I go back, three of my favourite videos are…

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[Track 11]

…The Golden Age of MGM with the clips throughout the years and I can go back on those time and time again and enjoy the various clips.

Is that nostalgia for your past or is it as well something that you’re, you know, that you can point to in the movies that you are looking for?

I think it’s nostalgia on my part, you know, I look back at them. I loved it then and I love it now.

Was it, was there a sort of, you know, the sheer glamour of…

The glamour of the musicals, you know, again you’ve got to relate it back to the period of austerity that one had been through and Hollywood was described as the Dream Factory and that was what it was. It was all the glamour of New York, or the perceived glamour of New York, you know, and there it was on screen for you. It was great. And I think on that note, always leave it on a high, if that’s okay with you.

[End of Track 11]

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[Track 12]

It’s the sixth of September 2005, interview with Manny Silverman. How are you feeling?\

I suppose already having done two of these interviews, I’m not sure whether I’m approaching it with greater or less trepidation. But I think the most important thing is that as a result of each of the two meetings we’ve had thus far, it’s certainly got me thinking more about the past which I find is very enjoyable in many respects, so you know, I’m raring to go. I don’t know to what extent you’re going to trigger my memory today, but let’s [laughs]…

You’ve mentioned a few times before, I think you’ve described yourself as a romantic about your childhood, an incurable romantic you’ve said, and I was wondering why ‘cos in some ways you seem to have had quite a difficult early childhood?

Interesting. The romanticism, if there is such a word, has continued on. As I say, ‘cos I like meeting old friends, friends of long standing as we prefer to be known [laughs]. Even meeting old girlfriends from years back, so it’s a romance with the past. I suppose because I don’t have to live the way I did in the past in the very early years, I’m reasonably content with where I’m at now. So I can look back at that with a degree of nostalgia without kidding myself that life was rosy, because it’s not easy to forget how difficult things were, but you know, I just love the past, I don’t really want to cut off from anything; good, bad or indifferent that I’ve experienced as far as I can recall. And it’s just so, so nice to go back. Always remember, and no doubt we’ll talk, well we will undoubtedly talk about Norman Hartnell, but when I took over Norman Hartnell it made press, I did television and the number of people from way, way back rang. And it really was absolutely lovely, because I didn’t realise until then how powerful the medium television was, it’s extraordinary. It really is, the number of people that came on to me. So you know, that was a fun time as well.

So, does that mean that you’ve sort of maintained good relationships, even if you’ve lost contact?

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I like to feel, met up with someone at the funeral yesterday who I hadn’t seen probably for twenty, twenty-five years and the last, probably one of the last times I’d met him, he’d been a good friend of mine up to the time that I had to fire him. And we picked up yesterday where we left off on a good note. And my view of friendship, true friendship is not being a bore every day of the week, every week of the year, got to phone this one, got to phone that one. Yes, by all means stay in touch, but true friendship is being able to pick up where you left off. For me, that’s the test of friendship.

I think later we’ll have to talk about firing, hiring and firing people.

When we get into more of the business – ‘cos this is meant to be about the fashion industry, but so far [laughing] – and I know you’ve talked to me before about this is all very much part of…

Fashion lives.

This is it.

Or fashion lives, which you know, it can go both ways.

Okay.

So there, you know, that’s how I view romanticism. You know, I do like to go back to see what, why, where and how.

And tonight you’re going to the boys’ club reunion, as we spoke of last time.

Indeed yes.

Good. And how are you dressed? Can you describe how you’re dressed for the reunion?

Dressed for the union, oh a vision of loveliness of course. [laughs] No, I shall just wear blue suit, blue shirt with white collar and cuffs, club tie, probably put on a clean pair of Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 114 C1046/011 Track 12 socks and dark shoes and that’ll be it. I’ve no-one that I want to impress. I’m seeing friends of long standing, it’s just a question of, you know, just catching up.

Okay, right. Hmm. Back to the chronology of your life and I wanted to talk first of all about your going to craft school.

Uh huh. Yeah, that was the Regent Street, what was then the Regent Street Polytechnic which I think is now the University of Westminster, or certainly – that was started by the late Quintin Hogg’s father. And that was in Regent Street, although the craft school itself was in Little Portland Street.

You said that you found the scholarship easy to get into craft school?

Yeah, I was presented with this set of papers to do something with, with a teacher and I just looked at it and it all seemed to make sense to me and you know, I seemed to be able to just look at the questions and answer, you know, I thought the answers that I was giving didn’t come terribly hard, must have been a very easy paper, that’s all I can conclude. But it was, you know, I could just understand – I think one of the great problems, I think that people who have not had much of a formal education like myself has, probably it was more than twofold, but basically one is a lack of the basics of English and English grammar and two, sometimes the difficulty in understanding the question. And fortunately I was able to understand the questions, I wasn’t being marked for my English.

What would those questions have been?

Oh Anna, that is so, so, so – we are now talking Anna, nearly sixty years ago.

What kind of questions?

I think they were of a general knowledge nature. I think they were sort of, I would have thought, rather than specifics in the three ‘Rs’; reading, writing, ‘rithmetic, they were sort of more aimed towards a general aptitude.

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And was there any testing of your aptitude for the practical subjects, working with your hands and so on?

Not that I’m aware of, no, I think it was a question of once I got the offer of the scholarship there were the three openings; there was tailoring, there was hairdressing and there was motor body building. Can’t for the life of me think what motor body building was, but there you are. There it was.

So can you remember your first day of going to that school?

Strangely enough, no. Strangely enough I don’t remember that first day. Don’t remember very much about the early detail of it at all. I’m trying to even remember where I first learned to sew. It must have been at the school, because I then worked in a small workshop during the small holidays, helping to make waistcoats. So I don’t remember very much about that, I can remember two of our teachers, the first year and the second year. First year you learnt, a man called Mr Liberty who wrote a very good book on tailoring, I think it’s still in the library as a textbook on tailoring. And the second man I think was Hobbs, and with him we learnt trouser-making. And then, my father, rest his soul, passed away and I went into Moss Bros as an apprentice.

What were your impressions during your early experience there of the building, of the atmosphere at that college?

Well of course the Regent Street building was very impressive; it was large with a big hall and you know, it was sort of different to the LCC school, standard LCC schools that were dotted round north, south, east and west of London, never got that far west to know, or particularly south, but as I understand they were all pretty well on the same mould, or same architectural design. But the Polytechnic main building itself was rather, infinitely grander than anything I’d sort of been to before, bearing in mind that a great part of my education during the war years was in little village schools in East Anglia, again even more different. The thing I remember most of all about the Little Portland Street building is that it had a gymnasium with a balcony round the top, so it was almost like an early atrium if you like, when I think back on it now. Always remember that. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 116 C1046/011 Track 12

Why d’you remember that particularly?

I don’t know. Probably because it’s something I hadn’t seen before. I think one of those questions probably of first impressions.

Would you have used the gymnasium?

No. No. I’ve never had enough energy to go round. [laughs] I have strong views on that. No, I’ve never been blessed a) with a great physic or b) physical ability. Stamina yes, but physical ability, to run, jump, kick a ball, that sort of thing, no, was never blessed with any of that.

So when you describe the Regent Street building as grand, what d’you mean by grand?

It was large, large staircase. It was just on a different scale, it was the scale of it and then there was the library, although I’d always used local libraries in Bethnal Green, the size of that library was probably four or five times larger than anything I’d seen before.

And what was the exterior of the building like?

Oh, I see it quite regularly, so I can’t really – I give it my undivided indifference when I go by now. [laughs] Just look at the young people sitting on the steps smoking before they go into classes, if they ever do go into classes and think well, you know, if that’s the way it is today, that’s the way it is today.

But how was it in your day?

There was a sense of discipline, there was a sense of order. And there was a sense of respect and I still like the word, irrespective of what Gorgeous George has done to it, I still think it’s a fine word.

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Does that mean – what was the nature of that respect, I mean were you on an equal sort of level to…

No, we were never on an equal level to those teaching, but because we were that much older, you know, I was thirteen, because we were that much older, we were treated slightly differently. For instance, you know, there was no corporal punishment, which we had previously. And there was a better level of communication. You weren’t quite so much talked at, although there was an element of that. That in itself didn’t breed familiarity. I think, you know, familiarity breeds contempt and I think that has to be. That still holds good in many respects. But it was just a different approach. ‘Cos also, we also still continued with a general education as part of that, you know, the tailoring curriculum was only part of the educational process, so we did maths, physics. I can still remember, probably two things I still remember from those days – the coefficient of linear expansion or what that does and also the principle of Archimedes. [laughs] Isn’t it funny, things stick in your mind? What their relevance is, I don’t know. So one still had a general education, but it was at a better level and with a better level of instructor or teacher, call them what you will.

And how far did that general education go?

I don’t know, I didn’t stay long enough. [laughs]

So, you’ve talked about seeing students outside nowadays smoking and so on, what was the atmosphere when you were there in terms of the other students?

It was still very clubby and we’d all meet up outside and stand around, but somehow, I don’t know, it may be the mind playing tricks, we may have been no better and possibly worse, I don’t really know. But my feeling is that, as I say, there was a greater level of discipline, a greater level of respect in those days. Now, as I say, again it’s nostalgia, but I don’t think that’s sort of looking at that aspect of past life with rose coloured spectacles.

Did you know any of the other students before you’d gone to the college?

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No.

So, did you make friends easily?

Oh yes, I’ve always found that. Despite the lack of any sporting prowess, I’ve always just got on, never been or sought to be – well I haven’t sought to be because I know my, try to know my limitations – I never sought to be a star, but I haven’t stopped people making me one. [laughs]

You’ve talked about your shyness before, and yet you…

It was over, yeah, it manifested itself in different ways and I suppose in many respects, the way I was able to overcome any shyness or the only time I really was able to overcome any shyness was when I was responding rather than opening. If people talk to me, very happy to talk to them. Now you know, twenty years ago I wouldn’t have approached you and said, ‘D’you recall me?’ but if you’d have asked me then, that would have been different. Whereas now, although I didn’t knock on your door, it wouldn’t have stopped me if I’d have known the opportunity was there before it presented itself.

[laughs] Okay. So, the other students, could you tell me a little about them, what was their background?

They came from differing backgrounds. They were, there was – who were they? There was Murray Gordon who came, who in those days lived in, just off Mayfair in one of those beautiful blocks of flats. His family were in the fashion industry with a large business, he was there. There was Gerry Freeman whose father was a waistcoat maker who I continued to stay in touch with till about five or six years ago, who carried on as a tailor working at a little workshop in Greek Street and carried on as a tailor to the stars for many, many years. Oh, just quite a number of guys. But they came from diverse backgrounds, but it seemed to work. Had I known we were gonna talk about this today I’d have taken – I’ve still got a class photo at home with some of the guys on there.

Can you describe that photograph? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 119 C1046/011 Track 12

It’s a conventional school photograph, standing there with our two teachers, some of us sitting down, some of us standing. Somewhat, not formal, but fairly stood up straight looking at it. My greatest regret when I look at that photograph is my head of hair. [laughs]

Ah. [laughs] And what are you wearing in that photograph?

I would think I’m probably wearing a pair of grey flannel trousers and a sports jacket is sort of what, the sort of thing we used to wear for school. There wasn’t a school uniform as such.

And you mentioned, was it Murray Gordon?

Mm hm.

At the time, did you have any knowledge of his family background?

Oh yes, it’s you know, we all spoke fairly freely about where we were from and why, you know, and you know, the very fact – what’s the name of the big hotel at the top of Marble Arch? The memory plays tricks doesn’t it now, these awful… I’ll think of it in a moment, as I say, but we knew where he lived was enough to tell us.

Did you have any feeling about that at the time?

Not particularly, no. That’s what was, you know, and as I say, one became conditioned. One became, you know, this was your life and that was it. Yes, it’s nice. It would have been nice to have been able to enjoy something similar, but one never – but there may have been an element of envy but never jealousy.

From his background, why d’you think he was at the craft school?

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Probably because he’d been slung out of other schools [laughs] as far as I can remember. No, I would think his – he may even have had a scholarship, I don’t know, but it may be that his parents were in the garment business and felt they ought to give him some sort of a grounding and it was a technical grounding with what was also a fairly good educational background.

Did most of your fellow students have a background in tailoring of some variety?

I would have thought possibly yes. Can’t remember ever really talking to people about what their folk did; what, why, when or how, but for instance Gerry Freeman, his father had this waistcoat, little waistcoat workshop initially in Greek Street or one of those streets, or Dean Street, and so it was natural for him to do that and he carried on long after his father had passed away. So there, there was a natural follow up of business, but for some of the others I don’t really know, it wouldn’t have occurred even to have thought about it. You know, you were just there to do what you did.

Did somebody like Gerry Freeman have any particular facility for learning compared to yourself?

I wouldn’t know. He was much better with girls than I was. [laughs]

[laughs] But did you find that you took to learning sewing and learning the practical skills?

That came relatively easy. That came relatively easy.

So could you sort of summarise the sort of timetable – how much of your week would have been spent on tailoring?

I would have thought half and half. Probably that certainly would have been the first year. Second year, may well have been about sixty-forty, the sixty being the tailoring side of it and as I say, the third year I never got to so I can’t really say. But it went, it was pretty well down the middle. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 121 C1046/011 Track 12

Where was the room that you were taught at first, what was the room?

It was, well as far as the general education was concerned, they were just straightforward classrooms. The tailoring was taught in a small, not a small but in a long rectangular room set up as a workshop. So you had machines there, you had your irons for doing your pressing, you had somewhere to sit and do your sewing, to lay the garments out. So it was like a largish workroom with work tables.

So, separate tables rather than…?

Probably three or four large tables where maybe half a dozen of us could work round each table.

And what was the light like?

It would have been this sort of, it would have been reasonably good light. In fact somewhere I still believe in – oh no, that was when I was at Moss Bros, I was sitting on a bench sewing, it was an article about the future tailors of Moss Bros. Somewhere I think in the archives I’ve got a picture of myself sitting on the table cross-legged sewing. But I can’t recall having our pictures taken – I thought for one minute I’d got recall on that, that it was at the Poly, but it wasn’t, it was at Moss Bros. The light was very good, it was done properly, it was done well, there was nothing Dickensian about it.

What were the windows like?

Glass. [laughs] No, sort of metal framed windows of that time, of that era. I would have thought looking back probably, and the building is still there, so it’s there to be looked at, but it would probably have had, at the outside there would have been glazed brick which was the sort of thing that was being used for that pre-war period when that was no doubt built. But other than that a very unimposing building from the outside, as I say, which is still, the building is still there and I think it’s still being used by the University of Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 122 C1046/011 Track 12

Westminster but I don’t think there’s a tailoring school any more. Or motor body building. [laughs]

Was daylight important for the work that you were doing?

It was, good daylight is good, but good artificial light as opposed to mediocre or average daylight, good artificial light is better.

How many of you would have been in a class doing the tailoring?

I would have thought about, somewhere between sixteen and twenty. If you go back to the sort of six on a table, five on a table, whatever it was, so I would have thought it would have been, if you work it back on those, that’s how it would have been, whether we’re four or five on a table. I would have thought it was somewhere between sixteen and twenty.

And how were you taught?

We were shown. We were shown how to hold a needle, we were shown how to thread a needle and interestingly enough, even with my eyesight as it is now, which is not what it was before, I can still thread a needle with the tiniest hole. It’s a very, very simple technique, but one doesn’t know it unless you taught it. If you have the needle in that hand, put your cotton in that hand, when you’re putting it, if you keep those two fingers together, everything moves together. And it just goes that way, whereas if you’re trying to do that, but if you do that…

So you keep your middle fingers together…

Keep your two fingers together, however you want to do it, but you do that and then you’re not losing sort of quarter inch as you may sort of marginally, it’s surprising how it works. Little techniques like that. How to tie a knot, you do it with just, you roll it round your finger to tie a knot in a cotton. I still do it.

Would your teacher have demonstrated to you as a group or table by… Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 123 C1046/011 Track 12

I think initially as a group, then – as a class – and then in small groups.

And was it Mr Liberty?

Mr Liberty, yes.

What was he like?

Oh about five foot five, five foot six, greying hair, probably early to mid fifties and I suppose from my perspective then, I would have regarded him as being very middle class. He would have come from, someone who had an education rather than someone who’d come from just being a tailor to a teacher.

And yet, was he a tailor?

Must have been, because he wrote one of the definitive tailoring books and was able to show us what to do.

But did you know the level of his professional experience?

Not really, other than that all we knew was, what we knew about him was from his book and what he showed us, but other than that, don’t think anyone really – may be different now – that interested in the teacher’s background or what either – if they are proficient in the job, they’ll command respect. If they aren’t proficient in the job, then they won’t get that re…

[End of Track 12]

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[Track 13]

…respect.

What was the title of his book?

Can’t remember, but it was on tailoring. I’ll have a look, next time I go to the London College of Fashion library I’ll have a look in the tailoring section, make sure, see if they have got a copy and if they have I’ll bring it in for you. I would have thought the British Library would have had one. Come on, please, we’re forgetting where we are. We’re forgetting where we are. Here’s me sort of talking about the – I can only associate the British Library being closeted with you. [laughs]

[laughs] Anyway.

[laughing] Anyway, but passing on quickly.

So back to that room. Can you describe the noise levels?

Noise levels weren’t particularly high because in the early stages we were really learning hand tailoring rather than to use a machine, so hand tailoring doesn’t, and sewing doesn’t make much of a noise.

And what were the, would you talk amongst yourselves or what was the conversation?

Occasionally yes. There was an element of discipline maintained. We were expected to knuckle down and get on with it.

So could you outline the progression that you made from – what was the first thing you were shown?

The first thing, we were shown how to hold a needle, how to thread a needle, to tie the knot in the cotton. Thimble, how to wear a thimble on this finger, middle finger, and then Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 125 C1046/011 Track 13 we were given a piece of cloth and we were shown how to hold and stitch a needle. I think the first stitch we were taught, it’s called a padding stitch. Padding stitches are fairly long stitch – difficult to describe stitches, but it’s a stitch that used to be used and probably very rarely used these days because they now have padding machines, but the padding stitch was done on the under collar and on the lapel before the facing went on and it made the fabric and the canvas which it was on roll, so it would always lay beautifully against the body. And you learnt that because you had to get it through the canvas to catch the, either the fabric underneath or the melton underneath if it was the collar, and just to catch it, just go through a little maybe, but very delicate, if you went through too far, got your finger. So, and that’s how we learned, really learned how to sew and sort of basic needlecraft.

When you say the material rolled…

Yup. When you padded it, when you make a garment it’s flat like that, then on this you put a piece of – none of this is on there when you start – so you have a flat piece of fabric with the canvas on it. You then have to – they don’t do it now, but in those days they did – and you then padded a thing called a bridle down there…

Down the lapel?

So a piece of fabric down the break, this is the break, which runs from above the collar down there and you just put these padding stitches on and obviously the rows got progressively shorter as you padded into the middle and the effect of that was to make it do that.

To roll over on itself?

To roll back on itself, so that it would grip and give a lovely shape. But then we had the advent of the padding machine, which could do that reasonably well. Nothing like as good as a good hand padded collar and lapel, but that then pretty well became the norm and then the next thing you had after that was when they stuck clothes, or they do stick clothes together as they do now, with interlining, with Staflex, which is a generic name, but it’s all very different now. You’ve got technology into it. And of course sewing or tailoring is a Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 126 C1046/011 Track 13 very difficult thing to bring technology into. So technology into even sewing machines, we haven’t really moved on that far in the last hundred years from the old basic Singer sewing machine. It will do more things, it’ll be clever, it’ll have under-bed trimmers which cut the cottons off underneath, but basically a sewing machine is a sewing machine is a sewing machine. You can make it – I suppose the sewing machine in many respects is like the wheel. You can’t reinvent it, but hopefully you can make it go faster and smoother. There’s a bit of Silverman philosophy for you. [laughs]

But when were you introduced to the machine?

Probably towards the end of the first year. But after we’d developed a bit of needlecraft, we then did I think it was the back stitch, then the half backstitch, then there was cross stitch which, that did underneath there.

Underneath the hem of the…

And that was one that you did in an opposite direction because of the way the cross stitching went. And then there was prick stitch, which is when you see a beautiful handmade suit, they have a machine that does it now as well, but a beautiful handmade suit has this tiny little stitching on the edge and that holds the edge together and gives it that lovely finish. So that’s how you learnt your needle technique and you became more and more proficient and then you went on to doing other things in the making of a coat. But as I say, if you read Mr Liberty’s book, you then learn how to make jetted pockets, you did that on a piece of – this is a jetting here – you made one of those.

Can you describe it in words for the…

It’s a long – if you look at a man’s jacket, it’s normally two narrow pieces of material, if there’s a flap on the garment, one will be above the flap, the other will be under the flap. These days they have a machine that does the whole thing. In the old days you used to have to machine the pieces on flat, cut them through and turn them over, and then you’d have the flap which you would put underneath and sew that in and the pocketing would be on the inside. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 127 C1046/011 Track 13

Goodness.

And then after that came the canvassing when you put the canvas on the front, which started to give it a bit of body and you’d do that ‘cos you couldn’t do it after you’d, you wanted to put the pockets in. Sometimes you put the pockets in before, sometimes you put the pockets in after canvassing. Can’t remember basics, it’s a long time since I’ve actually done that, but then after the canvassing then you’d, after the canvassing would come, then you’d pad the lapel. Because you couldn’t pad the lapel till the canvas was on there. So you’d canvas the garment, so the progression was you cut the cloth, that was done by cutting, you then marked it out with chalk and you put a basting stitch in it, which is a lose stitch which we normally do with double cotton so that it doesn’t come out, so you cut it through. So you’ve got the two separate halves, both marked identically because they’ve not been chalked. On the key points you’ve got the same stitching that’s gone through. You then put the canvassing on, you put this flat piece of canvas, so you’re laying that over, you’re then, what you do is you put the fabric over the canvas and you stitch it on.

What’s the canvas made of?

In those days it generally was flax and then you had a piece that went on it, a chest piece, which went over the canvas, so you had cloth, canvas, then there was a piece of horsehair which gave the chest of the garment a bit more substance. So you wanted a soft garment, but with substance where it needed it on the chest piece.

What a process. Mm.

Gosh, it’s a long time since I’ve been through this process, Anna, have to tell you. The best thing I’ll have to do is read Mr Liberty’s book again I think.

So you were learning by making a coat?

Well learning the component parts of a coat. We weren’t necessarily making the full coat in those days. We were learning certain of the basics, but the first year really was Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 128 C1046/011 Track 13 needlecraft rather than constructing a garment. But it was learning the various component parts. Now this outbreast or welt is an entirely different form of pocket. In many respects on the same principle, but there it has no welt, it just goes in on a straight line.

You mean there’s no flap on the pocket, so…

No flap on the pocket, no. If you wanted a pocket with a flap on the outbreast, then you’d have something like this. You’d have a jetted pocket with flaps, otherwise you’d have a welt, W-E-L-T, on the outbreast.

So, was that the whole of the first year on needlecraft?

Pretty well the whole of the first year, learning aspects of that. The second year we did then go into garment making because we were then able to use those techniques and learn to make a pair of trousers, which obviously nothing like as complicated a garment as making a jacket. And as I say, I never really got round to the third year. We’d have made a complete suit.

And, at the end of the first year using the machine, can you describe the sewing machine that you would have used at that time?

It would have been an old, I think a Singer 31K which is the old, very fashionable to have them, the stands as tables in restaurants and bars and things like that, with a treadle underneath. It would have been a – it wouldn’t have been motorised – it would have been a treadle with a bobbin underneath, conventional bobbin underneath. And the old basic black Singer machine with the gold lettering on it and the little plaque on the side giving the number of the machine, the little bobbin case on the side, bobbin wheel on the side, so you’d have a separate reel of cotton feeding on to the bobbin, so while you were actually sewing the wheel would also be feeding the bobbin. So you’d feed it with all different, so you had all the bobbins ready for when you wanted to sew.

In your first year did you find that you got things wrong?

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Oh dreadfully, dreadfully.

Such as?

The one thing, one really sticks in my mind. We were told to make one of these pockets, jetted and flap, I think it was a two, two and a quarter inch flap and what I couldn’t get into my mind was to get a two and a quarter inch flap it had to be at least three inches for it to come underneath and I made flap – and I couldn’t get, I will always remember that. I did flap after flap and I cut it to two and a quarter inches and I just could not see it. Eventually I did. But that’s the sort of thing. When I get thick, I get real thick, believe you me.

[laughs] And when that happened, how would you have been corrected? What was the style of correction?

First time was sort of a benign reprimand, to the point where being told with a great deal of justification, I was thick. [laughs]

And how did you feel?

Thick. But I just couldn’t – funny how one remembers these things – but I just could not see it. We’re talking now sixty years ago. I still remember that.

When you say you felt thick, did you ever feel that you wouldn’t grasp it, that you wouldn’t get a handle on what you were trying to learn?

I suppose from time to time, one does with all things. I say I could never understand algebra till we had one particular master who just made it so simple and so easy. I think there are very few of us that can’t be taught, but there are unfortunately very few teachers that can really teach. Having the knowledge of the subject is one thing, being able to communicate and transmit that knowledge is something entirely different.

So, who was the teacher in your second year?

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I think his name was Hobbs. He’d lost a leg during the war which made him sort of tetchy from time to time, but by the time we were second years it was, you know, there was already a year behind, the next year coming in, so we weren’t the sprogs any more.

So how did his teaching style compare to Mr Liberty’s?

He wasn’t quite so tolerant. You know, he expected things to be done, he expected us to have understood the basics and to be able to do what he was asking of us in making a pair of trousers.

So what was the progression of teaching during that year?

Progression of teaching was first of all the basic make up of a pair of trousers, ie you had the topside, the underside, the fly, you had to make up the waistband, you had to make up – in those days it all went in by hand, the band lining, then there was a curtain underneath the pockets. In many respects the pockets were like a jetting in those days, so you had the knowledge of a jet but you had to put it into a trouser and slightly – well very different, because you were working on the topside of a trouser, just with fabric and a plain piece of material on the underside and the underside and a facing because there you see, you’ve got that on the topside, you’ve got that on the underside and then on the side seam itself you’ve got a facing, so that when you open it you’ve got fabric, and then the rest of the pocket is attached to that.

Remind me about the jetting.

The jetting is the piece where you sew it on and you turn it over.

Right.

We’re never gonna make a tailoress out of you, honestly!

These words! Okay, right. And then, you had the basic make up of the trouser and then?

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And then we had to start to make a pair of trousers, which I can’t remember the exact process but it would have been, we’ve have had the topside, we’d have had to put the component parts together. We’d have had to have made the fly, stitched it by hand in those days, so this is done by a machine, but used to do that little prick stitch, used to have to do that by hand and just generally put a pair of trousers together. Do the waistband, which is this that comes across there and holds it all nicely together. Make sure the top there doesn’t gape and all that sort of thing. But I think it was before the end of the second year that I left.

Did you learn cutting?

Yes, that came next. That comes later. Yes, what I did is, when I started my apprenticeship, I then went back to evening classes to learn cutting. And somewhere – and it must be there somewhere unless we’ve long since thrown it away – I did get a first class City and Guilds for cutting.

Okay, so we’ll come on to that in a moment.

I couldn’t remember a thing about it.

[laughs] Okay. But back to your life as a student at that craft school. Could you describe a typical day from the time that you would leave home…

Leave home, leave home about quarter to eight, eight o’clock, catch a number eight bus which got me near enough to Regent Street. Walk up to the school, meet a few people outside, go in – there was no formal assembly, no register but they knew, you just reported in – you’d start your first class. Generally academic rather than craft. In those days, even in there they used to give us a bottle of milk for ten thirty, little bottle of milk at ten thirty. Maybe then you’d switch from education, or sort of formal academic to craft, till lunchtime. There was a school canteen, which was obviously subsidised, which one could go to, or we’d go out and buy a bag of chips or something, because remember we were in Great Portland Street, we were in the heart of the industry. Then the afternoon would follow pretty well the same pattern. Obviously there would be PE, there would be Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 132 C1046/011 Track 13 swimming – I couldn’t swim then and I can’t swim today. It’s a bit late now. Two things I’ve never, well two things I’m conscious of never having been able to do; can’t swim and can’t ride a bicycle. Which have held me back enormously. [laughs] So that really would be, would be the sort of day, you know, it was in many respects a continuation of a normal elementary school education.

When would you have left the school for the day?

Probably about four thirty.

So what would you have done after that?

Got a bus home. Got a bus home, had something to eat and then probably gone to the club.

So your social life at this stage was still the boys’ club?

Pretty well the boys’ club, yeah. Or maybe go over, you know, meet up with some friends, but it was I would think very much based round the club.

What was it like studying in central London, having come from being round the East End, suddenly being in, as you say, the heart of the industry?

I suppose the only thing – well the fundamental, what were the fundamental differences? The fundamental differences were, first of all the craft education which I’d not done before, so that was completely new. As far as the academic side of life was concerned, we had much better teachers and a broader syllabus, ie physics and things of that nature. The fact that there wasn’t any form of corporal punishment, you weren’t gonna be caned – never did anybody any harm, believe you me. Maybe a few of them got to like it too much, but that’s another story, another time, another place. [laughs] But there we are. We’ll leave that to serious sort of QCs who become very good authors, we’ll leave the spanking and the rest of it to them. [laughs] But no, so it was, it became I think more enjoyable. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 133 C1046/011 Track 13

And would you have gone out with your new friends in London itself, in the West End?

Not in the West End, no. Not at that stage, not at that stage. I would have sort of maybe met up with some of the – because the friends I’d made at school weren’t the friends I’d made at the boys’ club. Some of them actually belonged to other clubs, sort of within the same sort of conurbation of east, north east London. So really, once I went to Regent Street Poly, I developed two sets of chums; one was the club and b) my fellow students in class.

And they didn’t mix?

Not really, it was, you know, two entirely different worlds. If there was a catalyst between the two it could only have been me, but I’m sure I wasn’t alone in that.

Whilst you were at the craft school, did you find that you had some sort of knowledge of what your father’s work had been?

Not really. No, I just got on with what I was getting on with. To me it was what I suppose I’d always expected to do, to be a tailor and then you know, learn cutting. Because that’s, you know, that was the extent, the limit of my horizons.

So whilst you were there, it was very much that this was your career?

This was it, you know, this was what I was gonna be doing for the rest of my life. Hopefully advancing from tailoring to cutting which were very much, you know, the top echelons of the industry. You know, these were the top bunnies, they kept their jackets on when they worked.

Did you at that early stage, did you think that you would, that there would be a progression beyond the practical side of tailoring?

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Other than cutting, no. No they were the limits of my horizons, to be able to earn a good living as a tailor and hopefully become a cutter. And who knows, maybe even a designer, but a designer in a different context. Designer in menswear is merely the adaptation of basic blocks and basic patterns to create different shapes and different silhouettes, but not a designer in the context of the word as we see it today. It was very much a technical designer.

And you could see yourself doing that?

Couldn’t see myself, but it was something to aim for.

Does that role, how creative is that, would you say?

It requires great technical ability with a degree of flair, but it is not in any way, shape or form anything like the role of the couture, haute couture designer. Because you needed, to be a technical designer you needed a strong technical background, whereas we know today, most designers have to have a pattern cutter to take a two-dimensional drawing and turn it into a three-dimensional structure.

So, you were learning to do the three-dimensional?

But in menswear, yeah. Learning to do both the two and have enough technical knowledge and ability to sit down and be able to make it if challenged.

Would you describe yourself at the time as creative?

I don’t think so, no. I don’t think so. I have never been able to draw, not even been able to copy particularly well. Bit of a thicko really, the more I think of it. [laughs]

And yet when you’ve spoken about how you wanted to dress and so on, there’s a visual sense there.

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I had, yeah, yeah I suppose that was something different, that was an intuitive feel but only a feel for what I felt was right in terms of putting things together. A combination of that and what was fashionable at the time. Probably I could recognise a well styled product, maybe I had some innate ability to recognise a well styled pair of shoes, a well styled shirt, a good colour, but not consciously. I’d just look at it and get it, you know, and say yeah, that’s what I’ll have.

Was there any individual criticism or feedback that you received from tutors at the college as regards your progress?

Oh yeah. If, you know, we were expected to reach a certain point at a certain time and I certainly didn’t get it with making this two cross jets and the flap. [laughs] Not only did I grind to a halt, but I was going rapidly into reverse.

Were you praised at all though, individually?

I suppose if we’d done something pretty well they would say, the teacher would say, Liberty would say, ‘That’s pretty good. That’s okay’. But nothing more, no gold stars or happy faces, or treats.

So, you’ve mentioned that you only did nearly two years of the school before you had to leave. If you had carried on though, what was the qualification that you were heading toward?

I suppose it would have been a City and Guilds.

Diploma or…?

Oh, you have to have a diploma. You’ve only got to look back to The Wizard of Oz, we all need a diploma. [laughs]

True. [laughs]

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You know, as Ray what’s-his-name as the strawman, the scarecrow, he had to have his diploma. [laughs]

So it would have been a City and Guilds in tailoring?

Tailoring, I would have hoped so, yeah.

But you had to leave ‘cos your father died. Could you, first of all, what was your feeling at that time, how did it affect you personally?

Not, didn’t really affect me unduly. Because the managers at the boys’ club took an interest in how we were working out, what we were going to be doing and in those days old Harry – well he wasn’t such an old Harry Moss – but Harry Moss used to come in once or twice a week and knew that I was at Regent Street Poly and said, you know, we’ll apprentice you to Moss Bros. So I went along, saw Miss Scarfe, who was the staff manager in those days. This is a time when people were staff, they weren’t human resources or personnel. I love to see HR, always reminds, I always feel when I look at that they’ve left the ‘t’ off the end.

[both laughing]

You won’t have another one like me, I promise you.

[End of Track 13]

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[Track 14]

But I mean, how did Harry Moss know that you were in your situation or you had to leave because of your father’s death?

He would have known what was happening with the boys. I think the club leader would have, Harry Titchener who was the club leader would have told him that Manny’s father’s passed away and you know, he’s gonna be leaving school and you know, and Harry Moss would have said, you know, well we have a, you know, we’ve got a tailoring division, you know, we’ll give him a job.

How much contact would you have had with Harry Moss yourself before that?

Not a great deal, maybe just seen him at the club, maybe spoken to him, but not really very much.

But as a member, your own life was sort of knowledge to the other people in the club?

It was bound to be, you know, it’s just things get talked about, people know what’s going on.

If it hadn’t have happened then, would you have still, would it have been likely that you would have been apprenticed to Harry Moss simply because of you going to boys’ club?

It may, it may not have been, you know, it may have been something entirely different. I may well have gone, may have been placed or been offered to one of the West End tailors, of which there were literally hundreds in those days. May have been placed with one of those, I don’t know what would have happened. But you know, this is the way the plot falls.

But was there a sense that at boys’ club they were taking care of your future, and all the boys’ futures?

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Not really, no. No, this just happened to be one of those things that I’d been at tailoring school, Harry Moss had Moss Bros which was a tailoring business, he knew of me, had met me a couple of times, spoken with me probably a few times and said okay, this is what we’ll do and this was, and in those days there was also an organisation called the Jewish Board of Guardians which looked after those youngsters that needed additional support or had been, you know, that sort of were left without a parent or without parents and they also took me under their wing, so they actually monitored my progress at Moss Bros for many years. So they would come in, ooh, sometimes four or five times in a year and meet with me on site and then meet with the foreman and meet with the guy who was teaching me, who I was working with and monitor my progress. So there was a caring society.

How had the Jewish Board of Guardians made contact with you?

That I don’t know. That I don’t know. But that was an organisation that, as I say, was just specifically dedicated to helping where they could, not necessarily in monetary terms, though if you did need money for clothes or something like that they would always I think help that way, but it was a question, not even necessarily being a surrogate parent, but nevertheless, filling that sort of a role.

And who would you have personally had contact with from the Jewish Board of Guardians?

Can’t remember. He was a very nice man, but I certainly couldn’t remember his name. He was a very, very nice man and as I say, he used to come in four or five times a year, ask how I was getting on.

Was there any financial assistance from them?

I hadn’t asked for any, whether my mother, rest her soul, had I don’t really know. But I hadn’t asked for anything personally.

So, when your father died, you’ve spoken about your relationship with him, but how did it actually affect you when it happened? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 139 C1046/011 Track 14

Didn’t affect me greatly. It didn’t affect me greatly. But he played, unfortunately he played a relatively small role in my life, the most important thing was he gave me life and that one mustn’t forget – he gave me life and gave me a name. So that’s obviously terribly important. So he gave me life, but – and of course I was away out of London for so much of the time and he working long hours, there just wasn’t, there wasn’t a real relationship as such. Thinking back, the only strong relationship was that he used to take me to the public baths, when I used to go once a week to have a bath, he would always take me.

What was that like?

You went along, you paid your penny, you got your ticket, you waited in queue and when your number was called, you were next in line, you went in. There was no tap inside, it was turned on from outside by the baths attendants and they did the water and you called out if it was hot or cold, you wanted more, and you had to be in and out in half an hour and that was it. [laughs]

So where were these public baths?

The ones we used to go to, first ones we went to were in what is now Cheshire Street, well then was Hare Street. And as I think I may have mentioned on one of our former chats, I always got a great sense of fun, had a client last year in East Anglia, used to get the train from Liverpool Street and I used to sit on the – I suppose a bit silly really, sitting in my first class seat looking over, looking out past my old school which was Wood Close, immediately followed by the public baths. Doesn’t do you any harm.

Did it have a name, the baths?

Yes, Hare Street Baths. [laughs] And the other we used to go to from time to time, though it was much further away, was York Hall.

And what was, why did you go there?

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Don’t know. We used to go up there some – very rarely, but every once in a while we’d go up there. Almost have been a treat to go on the bus to go up there. But it was primarily Hare Street that we went to.

What was the building like?

It’s there to be seen, I can’t very, hard to describe. Just a general, a typical municipal building of its time which any architect who’d done any sort of background will know, it’s got the two entrances; women’s on one side, men’s on the other. I suppose a sort of a glorified, much larger public urinal. [laughs] Men’s and women’s either side, but in addition to comfort stations with slipper baths.

So what were the baths like themselves?

They were called slipper baths. They were just baths in cubicles and for your penny you got a towel and a little bit of soap and the hot water for half an hour. Great value.

[laughs] Would your father have used them as well?

He’d have probably, he’d have taken the next ticket and I’d have waited for him afterwards. So yeah, that was really our get together till I was old enough to go on my own.

So what was that like to be alone during those periods?

By that time I just got on with it. You know, one thing about being evacuated, being away from home for long periods of time, sometimes with people who loved you and sometimes with people who could almost have hated you with their attitude, you learn to be self- sufficient. Nothing like as horrible as some children are having to undergo today, or we come back into the nineteenth century, or even the early twentieth century. Just a way of life and you learn to adapt, you know, even at a young age humans are very, very adaptable and learn to survive. It’s a rather strong word for what – because it ain’t the toughest thing Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 141 C1046/011 Track 14 in the world, but you know, you do these things as a matter of course, that’s the way life is. Nobody had a bath who lived where we lived.

Was it private enough?

Yes. Yes, you went in to private, you had somewhere to hang your clothes, you had your bath, came out. If you were taking a bit too long the attendant would knock on the door and what time you had to be out – ‘Time you were out!’. [laughs]

So…

In fact one of the songs we’ll sing tonight, [sings] de da, da diddly de de de, de da da, hot water number twenty-two, hot water number twenty-two – that was a song we used to sing about the public baths and somebody’s bound to say, ‘D’you remember…?’ Doesn’t do any harm.

So, hmm.

Thing you have to remember Anna is if you’ve not known anything else, it’s okay, but if you’ve lived entirely differently and then had to go back to something like that, then you’re talking different ball game.

You’ve indicated what your religion as such meant to you when you were young, but when your father died, did you have any kind of religious basis for understanding that, for coming to terms with it?

Again, it just happened, it was and I didn’t really give it a great deal of thought. You know, again, this is the way of the world. And in fact it’s very interesting because only last week I visited my parents’ graves, it’s customary in Orthodox Jewish faith to visit your parents’ graves certainly before the new year and my sister was saying that you know, she felt my father, rest his soul’s grave needed cleaning up and also my mother’s grave, they’re both at the same cemetery and I got on to the stone masons and funnily enough, they were saying that, strangely enough rather, they were saying that mother’s grave can be Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 142 C1046/011 Track 14 cleaned up, the letters need re-gilding and what have you, but father’s grave is now almost, you know, beyond sensible repair and they’ve sent me in a quote for a new tombstone and the one’s been in nearly sixty or sixty years. So it’s funny it’s come round that we’ll probably, I will though, and I know the answer before I talk to my sister, I’m gonna do it anyway, so we’ll replace that stone. But this going back once a year, it’s a good discipline as well, ‘cos you know, I forget which of the commandments is, remember the parents all the days of their lives and their memory.

Did you then have some sort of sense of an afterlife or…?

Never really given it a great, I hadn’t really sort of given it a great – and even now I don’t have a great deal of thought about afterlife. If I practise my faith and I try and practise it to a reasonable degree, but not to a highly Orthodox degree, but I do it not for reward in the world to come, because I’m not sure about that, none of us are. But I do it because it’s a code of conduct and without sounding too uppity about the whole thing, it’s a way of living that I’ve, you know, there’s a lovely little saying, you know, is, if your, some man saw a chap who was worried and said, you know, if your worries are about what is happening in this world, then may God ease your worries, but if your worry’s about the world to come, then may the Almighty add to your worries.

Obviously in a financial sense your father’s death affected your family and you had to work.

Uh hm.

But in an emotional sense, how did it affect your mother and your sister?

I don’t think greatly anyway, not that I’m – it may have affected my sister more, but I’m not really aware of it. Probably wouldn’t have discussed it, life would have gone on and mother just went out to work as a tailoress, she knew how to sew, she just went out to work as a tailoress. And you know, life goes on. I know I keep on saying that, but that’s how it has to be.

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Did you go to the funeral?

Yes. Yes. Which was at Streatham. And it was very interesting because my mother died many, many years after my father passed away and her one big concern at that time, or one of her big concerns was that there would still be room in the cemetery for her to be buried in the same, so that Lilian and I wouldn’t have to go to two different cemeteries when we did our visits. That was her big concern, you know, because the thought of having to go to one cemetery to visit one grave and then go somewhere else to visit another, you know, that was her concern. Amazing isn’t it?

So…

Where are we up to? Gosh, we’re moving on apace.

You becoming an apprentice at Moss Bros. Where, where is…?

Started off in Covent Garden. In those days you had eight, I think six or eight bespoke cutters, each of them had their own set of customers, had a very big bespoke department – bespoke tailoring, that is made to measure. And Moss Bros had both an indoor workshop where people made garment inside for the various cutters, each had their own sets, set of a group of tailors, tailoresses, apprentices and approvers and what have you, and also used outworkers where they would give the coats or give the bundles of the cut fabric out to be made up. And then you also had trouser makers and waistcoat makers, because people who specialised in jackets and coats didn’t do waistcoats and trousers and right the way through. Waistcoat maker was a waistcoat maker, trouser maker was a trouser maker, coat maker was a coat maker, everyone specialised. And of course also in those days we were very large military tailors so we had strong military tailoring connection and in those days there were literally dozens, if not hundreds of different regiments, all had their own individual mess kits, different colours, different facings, different shapings. So we had a big section doing that as well. So I worked for a man called Bill Maskell. I was apprenticed to, well apprenticed to Moss Bros, but he was my, he was the tailor I worked with.

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So what was his specialism?

Only coats. What we tended to do, we had the coat, most of the coat makers were indoors because that’s the most important part of a suit.

When you say indoors, what’s the building?

The building was, oh, I should be able to describe it in detail because I gave evidence in chief, when I was Chief Executive, at the planning enquiry to have it demolished. But it was a building which Moss Bros had acquired over probably a half a century or more and it was very much on Bedford Street which is a hill going down towards the Strand. So it was on various levels and a bit of a maze. The workroom was on the, I think on the fourth floor, the cutters were on the third floor with the cloth store and the trimming store. Trim being linings, the canvasses, the buttons. If you look at - the melton - there are so many components in a handmade jacket and all had to be matched up and given to each individual garment. And in those days we also had a small section of breeches, made beautiful handmade breeches, unbelievable. Works of art. Craft, tailoring craft in those days was absolutely beautiful.

Can you describe one of these breeches?

Breeches, they would be in a very, very heavy melton cloth, or cord cloth, generally in a very pale colour. They had beautiful stitching down the – some of them would have what you call split falls rather than a conventional fly, certainly on ladies’ breeches where they would undo, there would be a sort of a flap on the front which would drop down, beautiful handmade buttonholes, beautiful horn buttons, beautiful stitching on the sides there and then from the calf, just below the calf, would be just below the calf there, you would then have canvas or a similar fabric to button up to grip there because the boots would then, it had to be thinner for the boots to come over and then the tops of the boots would go over the cloth. Absolutely beautiful garments, absolute works of art.

So, back to the building.

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It was just a biggish building on different levels, there were different floors and most of the floors were on different levels as well because the structure, Harry Moss had acquired each section of the building as it became vacant.

What’s the style of the building, what’s the period?

I suppose it would have been late, starting off late nineteenth century. Just an industrial type of building with retail on the ground floor which was further developed and it stayed that way till 1959 till the centre section, the front bit was still as it was till it was all demolished and that was redeveloped and with curtain walling. I particularly remember that because it was regarded as terribly ugly and a blot on the landscape at the time, but when it came for its demolition, or proposed demolition, English Heritage fought me on the basis that it was a classic design of early 1950s curtain walling. How times change. But it was just an industrial stroke retail building, nothing special, no great architectural value.

And inside, what would the…?

Huge, all this huge walnut or oak fittings, very much the old gentleman’s outfitters. Down in the basement you had the hat department and also the return hires. On the ground floor you had the hosiery department, which had been shirts, socks, ties, all those – handkerchiefs. On the first floor you had the hire department, maybe some of it was also on the first floor at the back, then you had the military department also on the first floor. Second floor as I recall was riding department. Can’t think what else, maybe skiwear once Harry Manson had started that, and the riding, as I say, the riding. Third floor was shoes. Second floor would also have had riding boots, riding boots were separate to shoes. Third floor would have been that, and the cutters and the trimming department. Fourth floor was the tailoring and I’m not sure whether the canteen, staff canteen was there or not and then fifth floor and up to the sixth floor were all the administrative offices. Fourth floor I think also were the management offices. So just a conventional old building. Moss Bros itself is a very interesting story.

When you arrived, what did you know about the history of the company? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 146 C1046/011 Track 14

Nothing at all. Nothing at all really, just knew it was, it was a big, to me it was a big business in those days and in point of fact was floated on the stock market as a fully listed company in 1948. So that gives you an indication of the business itself. But the Moss Bros story is in itself a very interesting story. But I don’t know how relevant it is to this. Well basically, the business was started – I’ll give it to you in the way I used to tell it. The business was started by Moses Moses who was a dealer in second-hand clothes. He had two branches, could never open them on the same day. One was in Covent Garden and one was in Kings Cross. The reason he couldn’t open them both on the same day was because it was a wheelbarrow and he had to wheel it from place to place. A lot of the stock that he got were unredeemed pledges from porn brokers and there were two major auction houses, one in Kings Cross and one in Covent Garden that auctioned unredeemed pledges that had been porned, so that’s where he would buy a lot of his stock. He would also buy the misfits from the West End tailors, uncollected orders and what have you. Now, he had five sons which were the Moss brothers, but he then changed his name from Moses to Moss, which of course was a very good thing because Moss Bros comes easily off the tongue but Moses Broses doesn’t work very well does it?

[laughs]

Doesn’t work very well. Of the five brothers there was one dominant force, one very clever man who was Alfred and it was Alfred that I think really established a site in Covent Garden, bought the first shop. It was with Alfred and through a friend of Alfred’s that the hire business was started and it was a man called Charles Pond who was a friend of Alfred Moss that had fallen on hard times, stockbroker but had fallen on hard times and was earning a bit of a living by entertaining at soirees at people’s homes and of course he needed white tie and tails and because the business still was largely dependent on second- hand clothing there was a big stock and Alfred used to lend him a suit when he needed it from the second-hand stock, didn’t make any difference, it was already second-hand. And Charles Pond, as Charles Pond got himself more on his feet Alfred said, well you really ought to pay for the dry-cleaning and the laundry and that’s how the hire started. That’s how the hire started. Also, over the years leading up to the First World War the business had grown considerably and in addition to second-hand, because the demand was strong Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 147 C1046/011 Track 14 for Moss Bros garments for menswear, Alfred had started also to stock ready-to-wear clothes, had them made, and also bespoke tailoring. Now, in the acquisition of second- hand clothing and buying up of dead person’s wardrobes, they also acquired a great deal of uniform stock, which they stored, there wasn’t much call for it, because when the First World War broke out, they had these enormous stocks of uniform stored all over the place and of course, they just couldn’t shift it quickly enough. Couldn’t shift it quickly enough. Youngsters I’m told, young men were coming in, changing into uniforms, paying the difference and leaving their ordinary civilian clothes behind.

Young men who were volunteering to join up?

Yeah. The majority of which never returned. So after the war, Moss Bros were left with all these enormous stocks and the business flourished and grew; he bought up local businesses. Parker’s was one of them, which was a riding business, was also doing riding boots so that was integrated into Moss Bros. Well to give you an indication of how successful a business it was in the early twenties – incidentally enough, although Moses Moses was probably one of the first of the liberal Jews or Reform Jewish movement, non- Orthodox, there were two sides of the family; Alfred who married a non-Jewish girl and converted to Christianity and one of the other brothers, Dave in particular, who married and they continued to be liberal Jews and still are to this day where you still have the two sides of the family. Alfred was the genius that built the business in those days – we’re now talking about the twenties – in those days he had a permanent suite at the Grosvenor House Hotel, had a Rolls-Royce and chauffeur, a huge estate in the country and largely based on second-hand clothing. And the business grew and developed and there was one nephew who was particularly bright, it was Harry Moss, who went into the business and Harry Moss became Managing Director in about, in the early thirties and continued to build the business, started to open branches; he’d opened Manchester as a branch. Then came the war and what Harry Moss did then was he opened a branch in Dorking of all places, because a) he wanted to store a lot of the stock that was irreplaceable, particularly the peers’ robes and coronets which again had been acquired from wardrobes of people – it’s enormous how it was built on what was being bought out of the second-hand. And that continued to grow in addition to having, storing clothes at Dorking which were easily accessible from London but hopefully far enough away from the Blitz. There was some… Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 148 C1046/011 Track 14

[End of Track 14] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 149 C1046/011 Track 15

[Track 15]

…merchandise being stored up in Manchester. He also opened a small trouser factory there, because there was a lot of female labour in the Dorking area, and also started a cleaning and dry pressing plant for the hire business. So it was an integrated operation there and that went on until 1946, till shortly after the war and it was at that point that the most important thing of all happened to Moss Bros. I joined as an apprentice tailor, so we’ve reached the point there where I come in. I didn’t have much say in the development of the business at that time. The business then grew quite rapidly, there was the introduction of bridal hire. That was a senior officer in one of the women’s services who came in and said to Harry Moss, look, you know, you’ve had all this business from us during the war with our uniforms, I don’t have enough clothing coupons for a wedding dress, can you help me with it? And Harry Moss said, okay, we’ll buy it and we’ll lend it to you. And that’s the start of the bridal business. That went on to evening dresses, and so it developed. And we then started to acquire branches, Harry Moss started to open branches, had a national network, ranging from as far north as Edinburgh, sort of down south to Bristol, right across the country the hire business grew. For many years there was no competition, then competition started with Young’s. In about the late, in the fifties, early fifties, because of the growth of the business, the production of garments was moved from Covent Garden because a) the space was needed in Covent Garden and also a larger production facility was required, so we took a factory in Haringey, which I went to work in. Worked in Haringey, business continued to grow, then what happened was, I’d reached a stage in my life – I can’t really call being an apprentice a career as such – but I’d reached a stage where I wanted to do something else. So I went to see Harry Moss – having as it were come into the business under Harry Moss’s wing and the Board of Guardians, the family had sort of taken an interest in my progress or lack thereof, as the case may be, and I said, really I want to leave. So Harry Moss said okay, if you want to leave, leave, but on the proviso that you will come back to us. So technically, we’re giving you a leave of absence, but hopefully one day you’ll come back and join us. So I got a job in a small workshop in the East End of London, got fired from that for being lazy, which I was. Then went to work for a guy called Sam Knight who was just a coat maker, an outdoor coat maker and we – that was an interesting aspect of life in those days as a tailor because everything had to be in the shop for Saturday for collection and again, the skills were Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 150 C1046/011 Track 15 broken down. For instance, although Sam made the coats, we had a machiner come in whose sole job was to put those pockets in and those pockets – they were called ‘jumpers’. They would ‘jump’ from tailor to tailor to put them in and of course the final job of work would be to press the final coat when it was finished and then put the buttons on. So we used to have to wait sometimes till twelve o’clock at night on a Friday night till the presser had finished pressing ‘cos everybody else was in the same boat, I would then sew the buttons on and clean it all up ready to take into work, and then we’d probably play cards all night. And then I used to get one of the first or second trolley buses out in the morning to Tottenham Court Road and take the coats into the two retailers that we worked for. And that was great fun. And then Sam had a big upheaval in his life, had matrimonial problems and he gave up, got himself into a terrible mess and gave up and I hadn’t, I then decided, you know, I’d worked steadily from 1946 to 1955 and I thought it was about time I took life a little bit easier, so I decided not to work for a few months. I had a few bob behind me, so I decided I wouldn’t work. And at that time Monty Moss, Harry Moss’s son, had got engaged and I knew Monty through the business. He’d also been our drama coach at the boys’ club and I’d won medals with him, so he knew me from that as well. I’d also performed with great distinction with the Moss Bros Players at the Cripplegate Theatre and elsewhere. I played Dauphin a year before Kenneth Williams did, and I think my performance was better. [laughs] So I thought well, the decent thing to do, ‘cos Monty wasn’t involved with the club, I’d go up to Moss Bros, to Covent Garden, to wish him well. So, that’s all I was going up to do and we got talking, I saw Monty in his office and Monty said ‘Well, you know, you’re here today, is it okay with your employer?’ I said, ‘Oh I’m not working at the moment, given it up’. So he said, ‘Well you must come and say hello to father while you’re here, because we love to see you’. And as I walked into Harry Moss’s office, which was rather large and grand, he said, ‘Manny’s here to see you father, and he isn’t working’. [laughs] And Harry Moss said, ‘Right, you start work tomorrow’. And I thought, don’t want to and Harry Moss had got nothing to do with it. I said, ‘But I don’t want to go back into tailoring’. And he said, ‘Okay fine, we’ll make you a porter in the second-hand department’. And that was my big career change. I went into the department, which was still very, very important to Moss Bros, it was a very big department, used to make enormous amounts of money as a business and of course we had the cleaning and laundry facility so everything that we bought, we had the facility in Dorking, so when the hire was quiet, that could go in to be put into stock. And after about Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 151 C1046/011 Track 15 eighteen months I realised that – and for some reason I started, when I was sort of portering garments, bundling them up, looking at them, looking at what needed to be done – part of my job was to be looking at garments and making a little note of what needed to be done to put them into good order. And I started to value them myself, just for the fun of it, and have a look and see what value had been placed on them. And then for some reason, Dick Smith who was the manager of the department said, ‘The governor wants you to start to see if you can buy’. So I started to do a little bit of buying when people brought things in. Because there were two aspects, there were the widows or executors who would ring us up and say, will you come and look at the wardrobe and put a value on it and then there were the people that would bring things in. And I then started to do a little bit of buying and Dick said, ‘Oh, Harry Moss says it’s about time you went out and did some outside buying, went and had a look’. And I did that and gradually found that I could not only do it, but do it very well indeed and could open up other avenues of opportunity, for instance, we had a fur hire business at Moss Bros and the buyer was buying furs which carried a luxury tax on them of about twice, almost twice the amount of the retail price of it and I said to Harry Moss, ‘Well look, you know, this strikes me as being a bit barmy, because after they’ve been used once they’re second-hand. Why don’t we buy them second-hand and try and buy them at the auctions?’ And we were buying them at a third or a quarter of the price in open auction. And then I started to develop other areas of opportunity and you know, showed that I started to have a bit of – I don’t know where it came from, obviously it was there, but you know, suddenly started to show that I had some indication, you know, some sort of ability. Which takes us in very nicely to the, you know, the career part of what really I suppose what this is all about. And then – oh yes, something else came along. Harry Moss suddenly said to me, look – I forget why, but I’d made some sort of comment and he said, ‘Okay, well do an analysis’. And what was happening, I felt that there were far too many alterations being done on ready-to-wear garments and I think I must have mentioned this and Harry Moss said, ‘Okay, do an analysis’, which of course did not please the production side of the business who had their own team of people and everything and here was this, you know, lad from the buying department, which as far as other parts of the business were concerned, was very much the second division aspect of the business, although the Moss management knew the value of it. And I did an analysis and proved that eighty per cent of all jackets needed to have their sleeves shortened, we were making everything too long. And that went well and Harry Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 152 C1046/011 Track 15

Moss made sure that that went into the system and then I just carried on with what I was doing, I was travelling all round the country buying second-hand clothes, going to visit big houses, buying wardrobes of clothing, even buying things like guns, binoculars, putting a value – I just had a flair for doing it, just learnt the basics of it. For some reason Anna, it was just so easy. Now I can’t explain why, but it just was. And then he called me up and said, ‘Look, we’re having a bit of problem in our bespoke tailoring department, orders are dropping. See what you can… take a look at it’, which again didn’t sort of amuse the production director and the other series of executives all had responsibility for it and I just had manager status at that time, nothing more. So I went in there, spent some time looking at it and said, okay, this is what we’ll do and put my proposal to Harry Moss with a rationale for why. And he said, ‘Oh well I don’t like it, but do it’. And what I worked out was, when a man comes in to buy a bespoke suit, he looks at a range of fabrics and generally after a tortuous process decides on one. And I said what we’ll do is we’ll give the staff a double commission for every second suit, every double or more sale they can make. Now it works two ways – for the customer, it saves him coming in again, but more important making the decision when you’re down to fabrics, you may just as well, why don’t you have the two of them sir? They’re slightly different, you’ll enjoy them both. For the salesman, he gets the commission and from the manufacturing point of view, you can generally, if they’re a plain or a striped cloth, you can cut them at once, they’re both the same. And it worked. And it worked. And so I was given more and more, more things to do. And then in 1967 at the age of thirty-six I think I must have been, I became the youngest non-family director of the company on the main board. Took over production, then took over the sales directorship and merchandising and then in 1975 the company was in trouble and Harry Moss then appointed a man called Harry Vanson, who at this moment of time is dying, who I went to see last week, became Managing Director. I became Deputy Managing Director and in 1980 the company again got itself into trouble and Harry Vanson retired and I became Chief Executive/Managing Director. But one other interesting thing happened during the middle of that decade, the sixties, and that was the Carnaby Street phenomena and that also played a part in my being appointed a director. We’d, over the years as I told you, stocked uniforms and gradually these uniforms weren’t being worn, they were absolutely obsolete, there were so many of them that no-one wanted them and I’d heard about this shop in Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove – what was the market, I can’t think what the market was called there – and someone was selling Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 153 C1046/011 Track 15 uniforms, called I Was Lord Kitchener’s Valet. So I went there and I said, you know, ‘Do you want to buy some uniforms from us?’ and he said, ‘Yes’. And I had them all brought up and had them all put in the training room. I wasn’t even, as I say, I was still a manager. I said to Harry, ‘I’m gonna do this’. By that time Harry Moss had developed a certain faith in my lunacy and John Paul came in and couldn’t believe his luck and eyes, bought the lot. Harry Moss got thousands of pounds for them, for something which was valueless. I then, my brother-in-law had then, with a partner, opened the first womenswear shop in Carnaby Street. It was the Portobello Road that I Was Lord Kitchener’s Valet was in. And he’d opened the first, my brother-in-law had opened the first women’s shop in Carnaby Street called Lady Jane.

Who’s your brother-in-law?

A man called Henry Moss, married to my sister. Nothing to do with the Moss family whatsoever, pure coincidence, pure and total coincidence but just one of those things. And he’d opened a womenswear shop and as a result of what I’d helped, as far as John Paul was concerned, he was eternally grateful to me and he then got to meet all the other people that I knew in Carnaby Street, because it became a bit of a club that we went to after work, it was great fun, it was an unbelievable time. It really was, you know, to try and describe it today is almost impossible. And then John Paul opened a shop in Carnaby Street and then said, ‘Look, I want to expand my business and I could do with some sort of management flair, you know, d’you want to take a share in it?’ So I said, ‘Fine’. So I became a shareholder in I Was Lord Kitchener’s Valet and Harry Moss found out about it and said, ‘Look, you know, I can understand what you want to do but if you give it up we’ll make you a director’, ie the original, or what for me was the original golden leg iron. Again, probably a foolish mistake for taking it, but that’s with the benefit of hindsight, now you know, so many things one looks back. So I sold my share to John Paul, which was actually the deposit for my first house.

But I mean with hindsight maybe you’d have made a different decision do you think? I mean what was, how different could things have been?

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I would have made a lot more money. I would have made capital, you see I’ve never made money as such because I’ve always been a salaried employee, so I’ve never really made capital, I’ve only ever sort of made retained earnings. And it’s not been bad and I can’t say I’ve done badly out of it, so what I’ve got I’ve always, or certainly for a while, earned a reasonable salary and so I’ve had retained earnings. I’ve always been fairly prudent. So, you know, that’s where it’s at. And so that takes us up to that point.

Yes.

Now, if we stop there at the point where I became Managing Director, because I’m sure you may want to go back a bit, or if you don’t want to at this moment, no doubt you’re gonna want to go back a bit next time we meet.

That’s right.

I don’t know how we are for time now.

It’s about quarter to four.

Is it really? My watch has stopped. Seriously, look, I thought… Oh well, in which case can we… Then that works out reasonably okay.

And then we’ll go back next time.

And then we can go back in greater detail if you want to.

Thank you very much, I will do.

I’m looking at this and thinking, well you know, I seem to be wittering on a bit, but…

[laughs] Do you want to stop now or…

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I think if we stop at that point, because that takes us then up to 1980, but there’s a great deal in that thirty odd year, twenty-five year period that you may want to cover and then we’ll go into my period of Chief Executive through to redundancy.

[laughs] We will do. Okay, lovely.

Are we switched off?

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[Track 16]

Right, twenty-second September 2005.

I’ll agree to that, nothing else, otherwise I plead the Fifth Amendment. [laughs]

Okay. Last time you helpfully gave me a summary of many, many years at Moss Bros and I wanted to take you right back to when you started as an apprentice.

Seems as good a place as any to start.

And, can you remember the first day?

I can remember aspects of the first day. It was quite an adventure getting the number sixty bus from Bethnal Green Road to the Strand, walking up Bedford Street, finding the staff door, being met by someone who I don’t really know and being introduced to a man called Bill Maskell who was one of the tailors who had a tailoress working with him, and I was assigned to him, I suppose you could call him my apprentice master. Interesting thing was that Ivy, who was his tailoress, was deaf and dumb and I probably learnt the deaf and dumb language – not so much in the way of words, I don’t think it was quite so developed in the way of words that it seems to have been done over the last what, forty-five, fifty years now, but – well almost sixty years I suppose when you think of it, yeah. 1946, we are talking – please, I think we’ve got to stop this. And so she taught me the alphabet and a little bit of lip reading, so I was able to talk to her because I tended to sit with her and another man also was a tailor, not quite such a nice guy, a man called Harold Joyce who I remember reasonably well and you know, being taken up to the staff canteen and as I say, in those days I was terribly, terribly shy and I suppose it was coming into a whole new world. And, I would say difficult rather more than traumatic, although there were aspects of trauma when I got lost in the building and what have you, but again, as I’ve said so often when we’ve spoken that you know, like anything else in life, you just come to grips with it. And thereby hangs a tale and that was the start of it. It was, I think, in November forty-six, so we are coming up to sixty years when I started work.

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Can you remember the actual date?

No, I would have said that I might have been able to have laid hands on it, but in view of everything that we’ve had to shift around because what I’ve been telling you about what’s been going on at home at the moment, I doubt if I shall ever be able to lay hands on anything again ever.

Okay. So who was it who met you at the door?

Don’t really remember, someone presumably from what in those days we used to call them staff office, from staff office they became personnel and I think now they have the glorious title of human resources. Why it had to be rebranded I shall never know, yet another exercise in futility. There’s not even an element of political correctness in it, it is just rebranding for rebranding’s sake. I suppose what it does do every time you rebrand, it must be worth another three thousand a year on average to salaries, or wages as they used to be called.

Were you the only apprentice starting?

No, there were two or three others. Somewhere at home I do have a copy of the Moss Bros magazine called Bits of Moss and I think it was in the 1947 issue, there’s a picture of us all together, the future tailors of Moss Bros.

And, can you describe the picture?

Oh, a picture of half, no maybe of seven or eight rather callow youths, some sitting cross- legged on the table, some standing so that we formed a group. Not sure whether I was sitting cross-legged or just with my feet on the footstool with one leg crossed over the other, can’t really remember how it was, but that’s what was there.

And when was that picture taken?

As I just said, I think it was forty-seven or forty-eight. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 158 C1046/011 Track 16

So you’d been there a year or…?

Been there a year and a half. Just about found my way around.

When you say found your way around, I mean visually what was the first thing that impressed you when you entered?

I don’t think I was particularly impressed. I think bewildered probably – bewitched, bothered and bewildered would probably a rather more apt phrase or apt term for it. It was just coming to grips with it and as I say, you know, being shy it was slightly difficult, but again, I managed to find my way back when I went to the toilet, find my way back to where I had to work. And of course the building always was a maze and that’s a maze rather than amazing. It was a maze because it was a series of buildings, which I think I said earlier, had been bought as they became vacant and as I say, they were all on the hill going down Bedford Street towards the Strand, so each building, each section of the building was on a different level. So you had half levels between, if it were three or four buildings together, you’d probably have three half levels running one into the other, if that makes sense.

Were there lifts?

There was a, yeah there was a customer lift, which remained in operation I believe until the day that the building was closed for demolition. I think it was featured as the centrefold of the ‘Lifts of London’ in one of the evening newspapers. It was lovely, with gates, lovely mahogany lifts with gates that slammed, and then at the back of the building there was a sort of a goods lift, which also was able to transport people up and down between the floors.

So was that for staff?

Mm hm.

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When you said there were seven or eight other apprentices, did they start on the same day?

No, no. It wasn’t a sort of a mass intake, a mass induction. You know, the time I just sort of changed jobs from apprentice tailor to director – this is a bit of a quantum leap in one hit – we then, well we didn’t have tailoring in any case then, but we brought in trainees and there was an induction programme and a fully structured programme for them.

So when did you meet the others?

I suppose either met them – I can’t think if there were any of them there or not when I joined – but gradually, you know, we were all lads of a certain age and in varying degrees of a certain type. Like any other organisation, be it a school or whatever else it is, you find friends.

So who were your friends?

Can’t really remember their names. I’ve got a picture of us all sitting there in a school photo. One in particular I do remember, a guy called Gerry Freeman – don’t know whether I’ve mentioned him before, but his father, he and his father were waistcoat makers, they had a workroom in Dean Street I think it was, and then he opened his own tailoring business. Didn’t have a shop front or anything, but he was on a first floor of Old Compton Street or somewhere in that area and built up an enormous showbiz clientele when he’d, after he’d finished his apprenticeship and went on with it. Another guy – names elude me – but another guy went on to be Managing Director at Burberry. So you know, some guys stayed, most of them moved on.

So, Gerry Freeman had been at the craft school with you as well?

Yeah, had been at craft school and then we met on further, yeah.

So what was he like?

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A very small, like myself, normal stature like you and I, very, very outgoing character. Totally uninhibited, quite the opposite to me.

Uninhibited how?

Oh, talk to anyone and everyone, lots of girlfriends which at that age it starts to become important, even more important if you’re too shy to do anything about it. But Gerry always seemed to have lots of girlfriends. And, as I say, he was always, after he left Moss’s he then went on to work with his father and it used to be one of the sights of that part of the West End of London where he’d be seen walking through the streets, where they’d made the waistcoats, they’d taken them into the shops, for the tailoring shops that were selling them, with his dog. And it was one of the sights of the West End to see Gerry walking through the back streets of Soho with an armful of waistcoats on the left hand and on the right leading Pip, his dog.

What was Pip like?

I don’t really remember. Obviously didn’t make any impression on me whatsoever.

Did you maintain contact with him?

Gerry I did, very much so. Probably until maybe ten years ago and then, for some reason these things drop off, but you know, to maintain contact for fifty years in itself ain’t bad.

When you talk about the showbiz clientele that he had, can you name a few names?

Not really, no. I can remember them at the time, but not really. No, the nearest I got to show business was in the early fifties and Moss’s had a theatrical costumiers called C & W May and they were doing the costumes for Paul Scofield for the Ring Round the Moon, Jean Anouilh’s, Jean Anouilh was very popular as a playwright in the fifties and Paul Scofield was playing the lead and it was Claire Bloom’s West End debut. And I was involved with the making of his clothes for that show.

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What were those clothes?

Suits, they were, I think it was either in the late eighties or early nineties was the period, so it was a four-button, high lapel, very straight jackets – that’s straight, A-I-G-H-T [laughs].

[laughs] Yes. [laughs]

And in pastel shades because the story of the thing is there are twin brothers and he was playing the twin brothers and there was a contrast between the twin brothers, both in the clothes, one was rather more severe as opposed to the other one’s slight gaudiness.

So, would Paul Scofield would have come in for fittings?

Paul Scofield would have come in to fitting at C & W May, but I wouldn’t have met him because we merely made them. By that time the manufacturing unit for Moss Bros, because it had grown, had moved from Covent Garden from the space there, into a smallish factory in Haringey and we all moved, all part of the operation that moved over. I think what happened there was, there was less bespoke tailoring and it became more – although it was a lot of handwork – it became more like a production line. So instead of doing several jobs in the construction of a garment, you tended to do one or two related operations over and over again.

So that was your slight dalliance with showbiz?

Very much, slightly yes, very much so. That’s showbiz. That’s showbiz!

So, back to your first day as an apprentice. What did you do during that day?

I don’t really know, I suppose I was given somewhere to sit, which was next to, sat next to Ivy. I’d got my thimble and my shears and I was given – I think I told you earlier when we went through the production – and started to pad collars, which was to improve, to develop a good delicate needle, a sewing technique. And from then – because a lot of these things I’d already done at tailoring, craft school you see, so the basics a) was aware of and b) a lot Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 162 C1046/011 Track 16 of them I had already done at craft school, so it wasn’t that difficult to get into it, which probably made life very much easier because I think had I been slow at getting off I’d have probably got a clip round the ear from Bill Maskell. In those days masters could do that to their servants and there wasn’t a claim to be made for an infringement of human rights.

What was Bill Maskell like?

Bill Maskell was a short, rather rotund man, very pleasant, very, very pleasant. Invariably had problems in his married life, seemed to me. Always having trouble with women somewhere or another. Don’t know too much about the detail but it did seem to be rather problematic for him, but somehow he seemed to overcome it. And you know, when I think of some of the people I probably might have worked with, and you can only have an opinion because you haven’t actually worked for them, but he was probably as good a guy I could have had to work with anyway.

How did he play the role of boss?

He would show me what he wanted done, check what I was doing and just generally keep an eye on me, but also try and make me earn my keep, because I was being paid the extraordinary sum of twenty-seven and six, which would be roughly I think about a hundred and thirty p or something, a week.

[laughs] I see.

How much was – twenty-seven and six, now that would be, fifty p is ten shillings – yeah, it would be a hundred and thirty-seven and a half p a week.

How did that compare to for example, other workers in Moss Bros?

That would be par for the course, you know, they were the rates of pay in those days. You know, that wasn’t, you know, if you… that was the going rate if you like and wages were very, very low all the way round, but then cost of living was that much lower. You know, Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 163 C1046/011 Track 16 if I think today, the price of The Times is ten p dearer than our week’s rent. You’ve got to put it into context, you can’t look at it out of context.

So, I mean how would your wage as an apprentice compare to, for example, or Harold?

Ivy would have been on more, obviously, because she was an experienced – she’d have probably been on about two fifty, two pound ten a week and Bill I think was a combination of a basic salary plus a fixed fee for the number of garments that he turned out a week. A form of piecework.

So, those wages, what did you do with them?

Gave them to my mother. Who in turn allocated me enough money for my week’s fares to go to work and a little bit of spending money. If you reckon you could go to the cinema for just over five p, a shilling, one and threepence actually – can’t go back to work out threepence, probably about eleven, eleven and a half p.

So you were still living at home?

Very much so, yeah.

Was it in the same condition as it had been when you were younger?

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

So, yourself, your mother and Lilian?

Mm hm, yeah. By which time, as I said earlier, my father, rest his soul had passed away, so that’s where we were at.

And how long did you stay living there?

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We stayed there until we moved to Hackney, I would think about the, about the early fifties. And then we moved.

As a family?

As a family, yeah. Again, nothing particularly glorious, but certainly a step up from where we had been before.

A step up to where?

From Bethnal Green to Hackney.

Where in Hackney?

Ainsworth Road.

Whereabouts is that?

It runs, if you’re coming from where the big cinema used to be, going up Well Street, the start of Well Street, then you go, it would be about the third, I think the third or the fourth on the right and up to the time when they did that huge redevelopment, residential development, council development, Ainsworth Road ran between Well Street and King Edward Road.

So, what was the new home like?

It was a little better than the rest, but it was just pleasant. I don’t think there’s any great significance in what it was, it was just that little bit better. And I stayed there actually, virtually until I got married.

Which was when?

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In sixty-nine, and don’t ask the exact date because I’ll have to check it up because every year Patricia and I have to debate the date of our anniversary.

Sixty-nine, so you would have been…

About thirty-six, thirty-seven I suppose. Yeah I can tell you, thirty-seven I went on the board and I was married probably two years later, so would have been about thirty-nine, yeah.

Quite late?

Yeah.

The home in Hackney, was that a flat in a house?

Yeah.

And how much living space did you have?

Oh that was rather better, we each had our own bedroom there. I think that was the great benefit of that. So you know, it’s just, you know, gradually upgrading. When one thinks of what those houses are fetching today, you know, it’s frightening. Unbelievable. You know, what was the basement is now a garden flat. [laughs] And what was the attic is now a penthouse.

But whereabouts was your flat in the house?

On the upper floors.

Did you have a bathroom this time?

Mm hm, yeah. By that time we’d graduated to that. Wow! And that was living.

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And your own room, what was that like?

Can’t think it’s of any relevance, a room. A room is a room is a room. It was a nice attic room, a nice big attic room. My bed, had a piano up there and just a room, you know, it’s of no great significance one way or the other.

Piano?

Yeah, but didn’t do much with it, but I liked to think I could but that’s as far as it went. What went on in the mind never came through in the fingers. [laughs]

Did you personalise the room at all?

Not that I’m aware of. I’d have had – when you say personalise it, everybody, whatever they put in a room personalises it, even if they put their own toothbrush in it. And I didn’t have it full of posters and all that nonsense, no.

Nonsense?

I happen to think it is.

Okay. But, outside of work, how much time would you have spent at home?

…Not a great deal I don’t think. Not a great deal. You know, one had developed, in inverted commas, a social life, got a crowd of people that I knew, meet up, go to one of the local clubs, local jazz clubs and things like that. So you know, that gradually developed, it’s part of the growing up process.

And would that have been in Hackney or the West End?

That would have been probably in Hackney and the surrounding areas. You’d meet up with people one worked with, friends of long standing, you know, and just a general, you Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 167 C1046/011 Track 16 know, wouldn’t even give it a second thought, it’s just things that seemed to happen. You know, I couldn’t even begin to quantify.

When did you stop going actively to boys’ club?

When I met the first great love of my life. [laughs] Which I think we talked about earlier, and that’s the time then that I’d, that everything else seemed to come to an end. So if you say how much time at home, certainly the time I was with her, I spent a lot of time seeing her. So as one looks more in depth, you can begin to quantify the amount, you know, where some of the time went and she took up quite a bit of time, I’m happy to say.

How did your family get on with her?

Didn’t ever really know her. No, at the age of seventeen, or fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, you know, it’s not a question of families meeting up to see if this is all gonna be suitable or not. No, it’s just…

So, when you went for your first day, you were doing padding collars, how did that develop, what were the next tasks?

The next task would have been then padding canvasses which were the chest pieces which gave a sort of a firmness to the garment and that was on canvas. Well then when that canvas was then basted on to the actual fabric itself, what we call the forepart, front part, forepart, and then on to padding the lapels. Probably would have done that for about, probably about six months or so.

Was there ever a task that you were given that you struggled with?

Not that I’m aware of, but I think the reason that I didn’t have to struggle was the fact that I’d been to craft school and done a number of the specific jobs in making up a jacket, so you know, I was aware of them and had basically done them. So it wasn’t any great trauma or any great difficulty. I don’t know if you remember telling you about the flaps Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 168 C1046/011 Track 16 and I kept chopping off, didn’t have anything like that I promise you. Just as well because this was a commercial operation, this wasn’t schooling.

Bearing those pressures in mind, was there, you know, was there a time when Bill Maskell would have had to reprimand you for any reason or…

Probably for, if anything, for going slow. Because tailoring is a pretty boring business and on a glorious sunny day when you’re sitting in a warm or a hot room, just sitting sewing, sewing, sewing, it ain’t much fun.

What was the room like?

A… it was a domestic room actually, because it was a building that Moss’s had bought, but they hadn’t sort of done any major structural work, so there were little groups of tailors in each of these rooms, like what had been a residential building - how a residential building had got there, I don’t know – but they were just a series of little rooms. And then we moved up to the fourth floor, which was a much larger open space and things then became slightly more, although you met more people, because it was a larger space, although you were working with the same team, it started to become rather more impersonal.

And how did you feel about that?

Didn’t like it at first. Didn’t like it at first, but again, given ten, twelve years I… [laughs] No, within weeks, you soon adapt, but I’ve always been resistant to change of any kind, so you know, it was to be expected of me.

When you say it could be boring, were you able to have conversations, were you allowed to?

It wasn’t particularly encouraged. Certainly couldn’t have a conversation with Ivy, because I’d have had to have stopped work to talk to Ivy, both look at her and then use my hands, so I couldn’t talk to her, and Bill was always getting on with his work, so there Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 169 C1046/011 Track 16 wasn’t really that much opportunity to talk. But there used to be an old tailoring phrase, maybe in other industries as well, that if you wanted to talk, you had to learn to whistle and ride, ie if you can’t do both, if you can’t talk and work, don’t talk.

Ah ha. [laughs] Did you mention someone called Harold?

Yes Harold was another tailor, who…

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[Track 17]

…to coin a phrase that I think we all heard of recently, I think it was referred to a politician big on spin who’s now in Europe, negotiated a fantastic import/export deal for us with China who shall remain nameless, of whom it was said, you know, you could dislike him on meeting him because it saved time. [laughs]

That doesn’t tell me very much about Harold though.

No, not a lot to say about Harold, just someone, you know sometimes there are people that for whatever reason, and I know not and maybe he did, he didn’t, but he didn’t take kindly to me so, you know, I stayed out of his way.

When you first started, were there other young people that you could meet?

Yeah, you know, there were lots of young people. Well I said there were the other young apprentices, but there were also other young people in the building doing other jobs, office jobs on the sales side and gradually when you went up to the staff canteen, either for a cup of coffee – although one of the jobs I used to have to do, I used to go to the café across the road, which I think, I think it’s one of the – and I can’t think of the name of it, one of the well-known cafes now, I used to go and get a jug of tea for the workshop, so we used to have it in the workshop rather than go up to the canteen. But you got to meet people in the building.

Were there other tasks like that that you were asked to do, being the apprentice?

Oh yeah. Don’t ask me what they were, because whatever they were I can’t think of them now, but one didn’t mind them if they got you out of the building for a few minutes, fantastic. Used to sort of go and take bets and in those days betting was illegal, so I used to be the one that, as I was the youngster, I was sent out to give the illegal bets to the bookie’s runner and things like that. Walking down New Row and I was looking at a shop there, remembered, it was a little fish and chip shop, I used to have to go and get the fish and chips lunchtime for the, if Bill and I, if he wanted that sort of a lunch. It was, it was a Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 171 C1046/011 Track 17 way of life again, that’s the way it was. But as I say, one didn’t mind being told to do something, it wasn’t asked. We weren’t given that luxury. But I didn’t mind, because it was a chance, as I say, to get out.

What else would you have seen in the area if you’d have gone out like that?

Well in those days, the Covent Garden porters still carried the big baskets on their heads. You’d see a lot of guys running around with wheelbarrows – they were called ‘empty boys’ and their job was to collect the empty crates and baskets where merchandise had been sold and just load and collect the empties on their barrows, so they were the empty boys. And also you’d have seen Covent Garden working as a fruit and veg market. Almost as seen in My Fair Lady because at that point, nothing had really changed. So you know, I often say to people, you know, at that stage I saw Covent Garden when it was really Covent Garden.

Would there have been people that you would have seen on a regular basis who for example, worked in the market or…

Yeah, when, a couple of years, maybe less, I used to go, even though I was very young then, used to go to the pub across the road in the evening for a drink and you’d see regular people in there that you got to know.

Such as?

Oh just – I wouldn’t even remember their names, just as I say, people that you just know and you talk to as you know, people you’d see in a pub. You had no other social contact with them whatsoever, but you just saw them in the evening.

What would you drink?

I think in those days I drank a horrible noxious thing called brown ale, which was absolutely vile. I swear it was that that stunted my growth. [laughs]

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[laughs] Would you have gone in there with work colleagues?

Oh yeah.

So, the staff canteen – what was that like?

A staff canteen, you know. There was a counter – if you think of a school canteen which we see, you know, time and time again on the television, where you’ve a counter, you’ve got people behind the counter serving food, there’s a lists up there says what’s on offer, what the price is – and I can’t remember what the prices were, but they were affordable. And then there were little square tables which sat four people and you’d find somewhere to sit or if someone was up there, got there early and they saved you a place you’d go and sit with them or else you’d find a seat somewhere and have your lunch.

And what was lunch for you?

I honestly can’t remember.

What did you like?

I know I liked thin gravy, I know they used to serve what I call fat gravy, thick gravy – I used to call it fat gravy. That’s the only thing I do remember. I do prefer, even today, I do prefer thin gravy. You know, sort of at the risk of doing some restaurant dropping, we were at Le Caprice Monday night for dinner and there was something on the menu and I did say to the waiter, ‘Does it have thin or fat gravy?’ [laughs] Nothing changes over sixty years.

[both laughing]

It was good.

So, if you had a choice, who would you have sat with in the canteen?

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People I know. Some of the chaps, some of the other apprentices.

And, what would you talk about?

Football, girls, girls, girls, football, girls.

[laughs]

I always remember and as this is not gonna go into public domain for a few years, always remember many, many years later, we had a wonderful character, a very fine looking guy, who was manager of our livery and chauffeur uniform department and he was a great stud of his time, he really was. He was about six foot and a very, very good looking guy, always had attractive women around him. And I always remember many, many years later, when he had gone through the first flush of youth and was just a rather sad old gentleman, sitting there, drinking his large mug of ale. I remember one Friday evening, the young lads – I never played football, as I said earlier, I’m not particularly good at sport – and I always remember one of the youngsters turning round and saying to Ash Eastman, ‘Did you ever used to play football when you were young Mr Eastman?’ and Ash sadly looked up from his beer and said, ‘Son, when I was your age, if I chased a girl I wanted to screw her, not kick her’. [laughs] But ‘screw’ wasn’t the word he used, but we….

[laughs] Wooh!

But that was Ash Eastman. You know, he was, lovely lines. I always remember, you say these things and they sound apocryphal stories, but with Ash they were true. I remember a well-known Duchess coming into the department and saying to him in very severe tones, ‘Mr Eastman, I have a complaint’. And he said, ‘Well don’t come near me Your Grace, because I’m going on holiday next week’. [laughs] End of complaint, just broke her up completely. He was great, he was great.

What was his role?

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He was the manager of the livery department; chauffeurs uniforms, footmen, that sort of stuff.

So how would you have come into contact with him?

Over the years, I wouldn’t have come into contact with him in the early days, but it would have been later on when I came back and was no longer on the tailoring side, but doing other bits and pieces and then I gradually got to know them, you know. These people – and I hope this doesn’t come across wrong – but these people who were very sort of almost near godlike creatures when I first went there, were still around when I became Group Chief Executive. Funny what happens over the years.

In the same positions?

Yeah.

You did cutting at evening class?

Yeah.

Where was the evening class?

Regent Street Polytechnic, which is now the University of Westminster.

So back to the craft school for that?

Yeah.

Would that have been the same tutor or…?

No, no, cutting would have been different. Drafting and cutting would have been different. Don’t remember too much about that, strangely enough, other than I did get my first class City and Guilds, but I would never have been allowed to practise as a cutter as Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 175 C1046/011 Track 17 an apprentice, I’d have had to have a totally different job, I’d have had to have become a striker, because cutting is a very skilled operation and the cutters were all way above, they were the gods to tailors. You know, a cutter would decide who was going to make the garment for him, whether they were gonna earn money or not, they were the ones that measured the garments. One of the greatest strikers who became famous was a man called Tommy Nutter, who worked as a striker for Watson’s I think it was, in Burlington Arcade – I think that’s the name of the firm – who, I remember seeing him there when I was buying misfits – we’ll talk about that side of the business as we go along – I remember seeing him, this very elegant young man. They were called strikers, what would happen is that the cutter would draft out the garment and chalk it up and the striker would cut it out, but on the lines chalked by the cutter. And I remember seeing Tommy Nutter there, who then went on to become very famous, in fact, in his time. Made for Beatles, for Cilla. He was the first sort of Savile Row tailor that was really sort of pop stroke showbiz.

What was he like?

I thought Tommy was a lovely character, obviously very gay but in those days one didn’t talk about such things, but it’s a question of live and let love, and I’ve always believed in that. Very, very nice, personable and I didn’t really know him well, but knew him to say hello to, just as we knew John Stephens and all of that crowd. You know, very personable man and very elegant and I was very, very sad when he passed away with Aids, one of the first I think to have passed away with Aids, very, very sad. But, so that was on the other side, so I never really practised cutting. You know, I got my certificate and that was it and that would have been in the early fifties.

How would Tommy Nutter have gone from being a striker to then being a tailor…

Because he, obviously he knew people within his circle. He was obviously very good at what he did and I don’t how long he’d spent working with the company, but again, as part of your training you become skilled, that’s the important aspect of – because in those days tailoring was still very much a craft, so it wasn’t as though a total production line where you sort of did that five million times a day. So from his point of view he would have attended fittings and probably had a few friends and acquaintances who were prepared to Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 176 C1046/011 Track 17 back him and had the contacts. I suppose from, it may well be that he got the, you know, I merely surmise here, but it may well be that he could possibly have got a connection to The Beatles and Cilla through Brian Epstein.

But in terms of the job of being a striker to then develop into being a tailor and doing the whole thing, so he would have attended other people’s fittings…

I would, yeah, this is it and gradually understood you know, learnt the craft, learnt the techniques, learnt what you need to do when you’re fitting a garment to get it right, not to you know, and to understand customer shape. Because you know, it’s very important that clothes look flattering. For instance, one can always look slimmer or thinner if you wear a larger garment. So nothing looks worse on a man than a loose collar. It looks – with a tie – it looks terribly scrawny. They immediately look as though they’re ill and have lost about two stone in weight, they haven’t. The reason I always try and wear, or the reason I have to wear a slightly larger size jacket, believe it or not, is because if I’m having a suit, the way they make them, trousers are narrower, trouser waists are smaller so they have to be let out, so I have to have the right size, to get the trouser size I have to have a slightly larger coat, but I don’t mind that because wearing a slightly larger jacket means you can’t see my little podge.

[laughs]

But you know, clothes are sort of, tailoring is as much of an art form as haute couture in womenswear. It is an art form in many respects. It doesn’t have obviously, the opportunities to experiment with fabrics of all kinds and sort of let the imagination run riot, but you know, a well cut jacket is a joy, because you don’t know it’s a well cut jacket unless you know it is, because it just looks so great on.

But why wouldn’t you have gone into cutting?

I don’t know. I was just tailoring and I was doing tailoring. I may well have become a cutter somewhere along the line, but you know, a series of changes in my work pattern and what I was doing meant that I didn’t follow that route, because in about 1951, fifty, fifty- Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 177 C1046/011 Track 17 one I left Moss Bros to go and work in the small workshops of the East End to get experience. I think I covered this with you earlier, didn’t I?

In summary, I didn’t realise you went for the experience.

It was, ‘cos it was always understood that one day I would return to the fold, I’d become part of the company and it was that sort of a business and it was always understood, so worked in the various small workshops and of course the smaller the workshop, the more opportunity you had to do other things with a garment, within the garment, ‘cos it was just yourself and a man. The felling hand, the sewing girl would come in and work maybe three hours on a Monday, an hour and a half on the Tuesday, depending on what time was required, so one learnt to do all the other bits and pieces. One learnt to use a sewing machine and you always started by sewing sleeve linings, the lining that goes inside the sleeve – it’s this – a) because if you made a balls of it, it didn’t show and you could get away with it, but b) very difficult because it’s slippy slidey, you’re machining one on the other. It taught you also to control the machine and in those days we didn’t have electric machines, it was treadles.

Was it a conscious decision on your part to get more experience by going to a smaller workshop?

I felt that I really wanted to make a shift. Don’t ask me why, there was no great, there was no great fall out, nothing of that nature. By that time, as I say, our workroom had moved to Haringey, probably the journey was a bit irksome because having moved to Hackney it meant getting a bus, oh it was all round, got three buses to get to Shoreditch, from Shoreditch to Manor House and from Manor House up to Haringey and to start work at eight o’clock in the morning.

So the place in Haringey, was the whole of Moss Bros moved?

All the workrooms. The workrooms. The alteration workrooms were kept in Covent Garden because they needed to be close to hand, but – and what had happened, as the business was growing, we needed more ready-to-wear. So you still had the same amount Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 178 C1046/011 Track 17 of bespoke, but the ready-to-wear became a much greater percentage of the whole. So you had to have larger premises, more people and then it became more of a production line and I found myself on that production line and wasn’t particularly keen on it.

So when did that happen, when did the move take place to go to Haringey?

I think, as I said earlier, I think it was in the early fifties.

So you’d been there for five, six…

Five or six, yeah.

And how had your role changed from that first day, during those five years?

Just that I was doing more, doing different, I was doing varied work. You know, by that time we were doing things like working on army uniforms because in those days we had National Service and young officer cadets, we were making officer’s blues which were the tunics. We also had a big RAF business, so we were making those uniforms, so one worked on a variety of garments. You made bellows pockets with inverted pleats and all those sort of things.

Would you have come into contact with any customers during that time?

No. No, because you’re in a workroom. The contact was either the sales person or the fitter, the cutter, the fitter and that would probably be to the tailor or to the, the fitter would probably speak to the manager of the alteration workroom who in turn would hand it out. Or if it was a bespoke fitting rather than a ready-to-wear suit to be altered, it would go, if it was a suit to be altered, ready-to-wear, that would be the fitter to the workroom. If it were bespoke, then the cutter himself would probably talk to the tailor.

So you were kept out of the way of the public?

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I don’t think it’s being kept out of the way of the public, you know, that side of the business was not customer related.

How did you feel about your place in the business?

That was my place in the business. That was my role. Probably I felt I needed a change but I wasn’t going to do anything else just to work in smaller workrooms, so you know, that was my role.

Did you have any contact with Harry Moss during…

I used to see him from time to time, yeah, he did keep any eye. It was known in the building that I’d been brought in by Harry Moss and I think this might have been one of the things for some reason that got up Harold Joyce’s nose. ‘Cos it may well be that Harry Moss may have come down, you know, would never have come to the workroom, but because of the boys’ club would have come down and just said, we’ll see how Manny’s getting along, sort of thing. And I think that may well have bred a degree of resentment for those who were hypersensitive to such things.

What was Harry Moss like?

Very, very, very nice man. Very able man but somehow in terms of management style, could not adapt to what was happening, the way business was changing, could not really adapt, could not come to grips in my opinion. I say, he was absolutely fantastic because he turned the business from one store into about a thirty store business, you know, took it public in forty-eight, so come on please, let’s not knock it in any way, shape or… Very, very kindly man, was always very, very kind to me, not in terms of salary or anything like that because that was the rate and that was, there were no favours like that, but was always relatively warm towards me and just a nice person and someone with whom I funnily enough, developed quite a good relationship as the years went on. Because he was the first person, well the only person really, to give me all the opportunities that I had. It may well be that he saw something in me that no-one, including myself, might have been, but I think Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 180 C1046/011 Track 17 that’s pure serendipity, I don’t think there was ever anything to indicate that I might have had more to offer than just needle skills.

Really?

Mm. Oh totally. Lovable, personable, all of this, yes, but talented, no. [laughs]

[laughs] How did you feel – did you feel that you had been singled out?

In some ways, yes because nobody else had that sort of, nobody else was called by their forenames, irrespective of age. You know, no-one was, except me. And as I say, that may well have bred resentment among certain parties.

How would you deal with that?

Just ignored it. There’s not a lot you can do with it. Just used to hope he’s not coming down for another three months to see me. [laughs]

[laughs] So, shy still, at this point?

Still fairly, yes still fairly shy, yeah. Still fairly shy. But gradually, gradually getting through it, gradually developing. Particularly when I went to sort of, I think I had three jobs after I left Moss’s and the first one was to a small workroom in Cambridge Heath Road. That was a company, can’t remember the name now, but they made, again that was more of a production line, certainly paid better than Moss’s for the same job. Moss’s, unfortunately, were notorious for their pay, but I think they did offer a degree of secure employment which wasn’t always around in those days. So…

How much would you have been paid by the…

The other people – I would have thought in percentage terms, probably thirty, forty per cent more, so from that point of view it was worth moving on as well. And after a year, eighteen months there, I then moved and worked for someone in Stoke Newington and Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 181 C1046/011 Track 17 then for a man called Sam Knight who was just a one man and his dog and not even – yes, he did have a dog actually – but Sam Knight worked on his own and I just worked with him, just the two of us, in the workroom with sort of specialist – again, I think I’ve told you – specialist felling hand, buttonhole maker, the presser off to complete the garment, and they were the people that come and go. But it was interesting, it was these people that came in to do these jobs, they almost acted as recruitment for the industry, because if one of their people, if one of their other clients would say to them, if you know of a decent junior looking for a job, mention it will you? We’re looking for someone. And that’s how it used to work.

So where was the workshop with Sam Knight?

It was in a building, it’s the corner of – I don’t know how well you know Clapton – the corner of Lea Bridge Road and Kenninghall Road and again it was an old residential building and there were a whole series of small workshops, each people had, someone had taken a room and a room there and just had their own little workshop. Had a machine in there, bench, an iron and made coats.

So, Sam Knight, what was he like?

Sam was okay, he was alright. He was a compulsive gambler, so was invariably in trouble and then had a crooked accountant and suddenly found himself with a massive tax bill. I always remember serendipity playing its part for him – someone gave him a tip for the spring double, which was the Grand National and the other big race and it came up and he won five hundred pounds, which in those days was about ten, fifteen thousand today and he was able to pay off his tax bills and everything else, but within a relatively short period of time, just couldn’t, as I say was a compulsive gambler. Unfortunately his wife divorced him around about that time which is very sad, and that was the last job I had before I went back to Moss’s. I left Sam and then didn’t work for eight or nine weeks, but I think I said earlier how I came to go back into Moss Bros.

But that period with Sam in that workshop and the ones before, how d’you feel your skills developed during that time? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 182 C1046/011 Track 17

Come to think of it in all honesty, I don’t think they did really.

Really?

I don’t think they did really. My social skills may have developed because there were – in those days, I have to say, because of the nature of the business, there was a social life in organisations like Moss Bros. We used to have whist drives, we used to have staff dances at Caxton Hall, we used to have social evenings and there were lots of, you know, these days very, very few youngsters go into tailoring. There are a few still, but not the way it was, so there were always lots of young boys and girls in the businesses and in the industry, so there was an opportunity to you know, to get to know people. And you’d go…

[End of Track 17]

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[Track 18]

…for a drink or you’d meet them for a cup of coffee, if you went out to the café next door or something, and it was just, from that point of view, somehow found it more social that way. But other than that, in terms of developing skills I don’t, I think I have to say hand on heart, I don’t really think that I developed skills to any great extent as far as my work was going. But if one had, at that time, you know, a projection forward, of course it would have been irrelevant. But it’s funny how all your skills, whatever you’ve learnt in the past come to play, recently I was up with one of my clients in the north, I was staying in a very nice hotel because I stay overnight, rather nice, not only is it a Michelin star restaurant, they even do what I regard Michelin star breakfasts. But the owner – I was sitting with my client and she introduced me – you can tell me, what is it, I’ve got all this pilling rubbing up on my jacket. And I said, ‘Go outside and come in exactly as you did before’. And he came in, I said, ‘Very simple, you carry a leather handbag and the way you carry it, you’re constantly rubbing against the fabric which is lifting it’. All these little things. You know, and there are a dozen and one things of that nature that you don’t, that are stored in the memory bank, but until you have reason to call on them – now, I think as I get older, the recall is beginning to get slightly more difficult, I have to confess. But I was very pleased with that one and my client who, I’m pleased to say, always seems to be very much a fan of mine judged on the way she wrote me up when I agreed to work with them in her newsletter to all her clients, you know, ‘I have been fortunate enough to secure the services of one of the legends in our industry’, it was lovely [laughing]. Absolutely great fun, and I think she got a certain degree of pleasure in the way I was just able to tell him exactly what it was. So, you know, you learn lots of different little techniques from different people. These aren’t original things I’ve learnt, just I’ve learnt from other people and this is how a lot of knowledge in the crafts gets imparted.

But you learnt social skills during that time?

Yeah we call them social skills, I suppose social skills is a euphemism for becoming less shy. [laughs]

Why d’you think that is exactly? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 184 C1046/011 Track 18

I think mixing with more people, getting a little bit older, you know, and you know, people were being particularly nice to me and personable to me so it was easier to respond. Now why, probably I was a far more pleasant person then than I am now. People found me very pleasant in those days. No seriously, I’ve always been, although I’ve been shy, if someone has made the first move, you know, I’ve then found it that much easier to develop a relationship. If a girl spoke to me first, then fine, but I could never make the first approach.

Could you start to tell jokes at this time, or be humorous?

Don’t think I was. Don’t remember, don’t remember ever telling jokes or anything of that nature.

How did you impress girls?

I don’t know, I think I was very pretty as a child. Very pretty as a child. When I look back at some of the photographs and Patricia as well and see this sort of dear sweet little face with this huge head of beautiful black, thick, lustrous curls, you know, a thing of beauty is a joy forever. [laughs]

And when did the curls…

Start to go?

Fall off? [laughs]

They started to go I think when I was still with Sam Knight, so that would have been in my early twenties. But as I say, the interesting thing, I may have mentioned this before, but the interesting thing Anna is that the more hair I lost, the more self-confidence I developed. Now I don’t know enough about psychology or whatever else is required to work this out, but it certainly worked.

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So how quickly did it fall out?

Far too quickly for my liking.

[laughs]

Far too quickly. I suppose over a period, I suppose it took me about ten to fifteen years to develop a wide parting, a really good wide parting. So it would have been in my late thirties, I suppose the transition from thinning hair to slightly balding. [laughs] I don’t mean Clare Balding, our racing correspondent, no. [laughs]

You’ve mentioned Sam Knight’s gambling habit – did you bet?

No. No, I’ve never, never – I had the occasional flutter, yeah, that’s it, if we go to Ascot, you know. But I regard that as social gambling, but you know, to sit down every day and look at the newspaper in the morning and decide what I’m going to back, no.

Did you have any vices?

Not that I’m conscious or aware of, but I would say that wouldn’t I? I don’t think really – I’ve no great virtues and no great vices. Very mundane.

In an earlier recording I asked about your awareness of politics when you were young and you spoke about joining the National Union.

Yeah, well it was expected of one to join the National Union of Garment Workers. There was a shop steward and there was an area officer. Interesting, the area officer who used to come in to the factory in Haringey was still around and I had to deal with him, negotiate with him when I closed the factory, you know. And that was traumatic – we’ll come to that at a later stage – but that was probably one of the worst things I ever had to do, because I had to fire one or two people who – people like Leslie Serlouis who was also an apprentice and joined the company shortly after me, and he’d been there all his life and I had to fire him. But it happened to me eventually, so what goes around comes around Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 186 C1046/011 Track 18

Anna. But for me it was the most awful Christmas I have ever spent, knowing that when everyone came back, eighty per cent of them I was gonna give notice to and most of them had been with the company for many, many years. But it had to be done, it’s one of those things that was leading the company and just had to be tackled. But, there it is. The same as the theatrical department, it was a total nonsense, it wasn’t core business. I didn’t know in those days what a core business was, but I knew what was relevant and what wasn’t and I knew that it was taking a disproportionate amount of time, capital, to produce a significant loss, so I got shot of it. You know, that’s the way it is.

How quickly did you start to become actively involved in the political side of the unions and so on?

I never became really involved. No, I was by definition and social class a classic Labour voter, in those days, you know, by definition and class there was no other way – or we could vote another way because in our constituency in Bethnal Green, we had a man called Sir Percy Harris who was a famous, one of the famous Liberals, when Liberals were liberal. Was also involved with London County Council, but he’d been the sitting MP for Bethnal Green until I think, until the day he decided to call a halt to his career. So you know, although it was very much in the heart of the East End, there was a great loyalty in those days. Diane Abbott in the same constituency lost her seat to Gorgeous George, whatever would have happened, no-one would have outed Sir Percy Harris. There was, I think in those days, interesting thought, I think in those days there was a greater, a perceived affinity between the electorate and their sitting MP, not that they would ever have met them or anything like it, but it was a cultural thing in those days. You knew, as I say, you knew basically what sort of voter you were but you also knew where your loyalties lie.

So, if you were a natural Labour sort of person and yet had a Liberal MP, what have been your own personal politics and how has that become important to you…

All politics in my opinion, I challenge anyone to prove otherwise, all political affiliations are based on self-interest. Now I’m not a political philosopher or anything like it and I wouldn’t want to spout on it, but you pose the question and you know, thinking aloud, you Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 187 C1046/011 Track 18 know, I feel strongly that all politics, as I say, all political alliances, call them what you will, allegiances, de-dum, de-dum, I think they are all based primarily on self-interest. When I reached a certain level in my life I became, not a high Tory, but the Conservative way was more relevant, you know, I could more relate to the Conservative manifesto than I could to a Labour manifesto. Life had changed for me. I’d crossed a boundary. And you know, and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. I’ve no, certainly I’ve no conscious about it, I feel no guilt about it, it’s just the way of the world.

Has voting been important to you?

I’ve always felt it to be – doesn’t want to sound bumptious – but I’ve always felt it to be a privilege to have the opportunity and I think almost without exception, I can’t think when, I have always voted, whether it’s been local elections or national elections. I do believe that one has a duty, an obligation in a democracy to exercise one’s vote. You know, it’s knowing – bit more about my family background – but knowing where our roots have come from and what the opportunities weren’t there, I suppose in my subconscious I’ve been aware of that as well. But again that’s been no big deal, I’ve just always felt as I say, without making a thing of it, that one had a duty to vote.

Patriotic?

Ooh. Very. This doesn’t mean to say blinkered, this doesn’t mean to say blinkered, but definitely patriotic. Very much Queen and country, King and country prior to that. Can’t always approve of what subsequent generations have done, but we live in changing times and one of the great joys of being in a democracy, if one has what one considers to be valid criticism, one can articulate that criticism, even among one’s friends and acquaintances. But nevertheless, I still feel very, very strongly.

What does it mean for you though, patriotic, what does England mean?

It almost means at times my country right or wrong. I feel that we have a duty to support our elected Government and as far as I was concerned, if you want to take the most recent thing, we all know in retrospect that the Iraq, this current Iraq war has turned out – I’m not Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 188 C1046/011 Track 18 saying it was wrong – but has turned out to be bugger’s muddle, but at the time that was the decision taken by Government and one had to support it. You know, you do have to support – it’s so easy to be negative and it is so easy to be a strident, vociferous minority. But I do believe there are times when you have to exercise your support, you have to stand up and be counted and you do have to back the law of the land. And you know, and Cabinet decisions, Governmental decisions and don’t forget this did go through the House of Commons, irrespective of we know that a great deal of the basis on which the decision was taken and the information supplied for that purpose was flawed in many respects, to be very kind about it, and I do feel bitter about that. But there you are, I think you have to support, you know. I’m not saying it’s my country right or wrong, but I get pretty close to that. To me, the Last Night at the Proms is an evening not to be missed and you know, and it does make you feel good inside.

Is belonging to something…

Very important. To me, that is very important.

Can we relate that back to your working life? Has going into the business for example, going into Moss Bros, how did you feel about belonging to something?

Oh very much so, you know. I worked for Moss Bros and Moss Bros was a household name and what did I do? I worked at Moss Bros. And it carries weight today. You say to someone, yes I used to work – one has to play the silly games about it, yes. I used to work for Moss Bros. ‘Oh, what did you do?’ Oh, I was Chief Executive. [laughs] Throwaway line, you know, as one does. [laughs] But the point is that Moss Bros is one of those names, it’s one of those companies.

And when it came to the unions, did you see yourself on one side or another?

I was a union man, but there was never confrontation, so I was never, you know I never had to make decisions on that. There were never issues of striking or anything like that. It was, you know, National Union of Garment Workers was always a fairly benign body, but I’d done the complete change when, after I’d gone on to the board at Moss Bros and Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 189 C1046/011 Track 18 become Production Director, I was then on the national body of the Clothing Manufacturers’ Federation on the negotiating body which negotiated with the unions on the annual reviews. So I’d done the complete – I’d never actually sat on the union side, much too young and wasn’t that involved, but I had gone over to the other side. So in a room three times this size, they’d have sixty representatives come in and we would all be on this side and we would all stand up as they came in and then they’d sit down and we’d sit down, and then opening statements would be made, union would say well of course that is totally unacceptable, with your permission we’d like to withdraw. And we would all stand up – like a charade – and they would all stand, they’d leave the room, we would all sit down and we would wait to see what they came back with, and the same procedure and this would go on for two or three days, but the point I’m making is, that I had made the total, I’d gone from poacher to gamekeeper, or gamekeeper to poacher, I’m not sure which is which.

And when was that?

That would have been in the early seventies. So, went on the board in late sixty-seven. It would have been late sixties, very late sixties, early seventies. It’s interesting. The more one thinks about it, the more [laughing] one’s working life has been.

For you it has.

Yeah, you know, it’s just been one of those strange things, it’s always worked out that way. It’s now four thirty and I did say, with you with your cold and me with wanting to get back and see what the devil is going on, is that okay with you at that point? You know, at the point where Manny became gamekeeper as opposed to poacher or poacher as opposed to gamekeeper.

[End of Track 18] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 190 C1046/011 Track 20

[Track 19]

Well if we’re A okay.

Okay. Right, twentieth of October 2005, interview with Manny Silverman. How are you?

I’m alright. How are you?

Good, good.

It’s been so long since we last met so I can’t remember whether I was up to the age of nine or eleven.

Maybe twenty-five.

Oh right, oh right, we got there.

Yes, you were talking about your period away from Moss Bros.

Right.

When you worked for Sam Knight.

Uh huh.

And then you returned.

Yup, indeedy.

And that was via?

Well, as I say, that was only due that Monty Moss, I’d read in the paper that Monty Moss had got engaged and I’d known him for quite some time so I thought I’d call in to Moss Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 191 C1046/011 Track 20

Bros and wish him well. It was lovely, had nine weeks not working, the weather was good and the Victoria Park Lido, that’s the Bethnal Green Victoria Park Lido was open and life was very pleasant. But I thought I’d just call in and just wish him well and he happened to say, ‘What are you doing these days?’ and I said, ‘Well nothing, just coming in to say hello to you and wish you well’. And he said, ‘Well come in and say hello to my father’ and there’s old Harry Moss who was the Chairman, Managing Director of the company and as I walked in there, he announced, you know, ‘Manny hasn’t worked for nine weeks and doesn’t seem as though he wants to’. And Harry Moss said, ‘Okay, well you’d better start work tomorrow’. So had we covered this aspect before or not?

I wanted to have the details?

Oh more of the detail, okay, so what actually happened was that I’d said to Harry Moss at the time, well I’m not interested in going back into tailoring. So he said, ‘Okay, we’ll give you a job in the offer department as a porter’. So, your next question I’m sure, anticipating is, we’ve spent some time together now, understand each other’s needs and requirements and hidden signals, what’s the offer department? The offer department was, I think we talked about the second-hand business of Moss Bros. Well the offer department was the department which did the buying of second-hand clothing. And I just went into that and it was alright, it was just carrying bundles of second-hand clothing, sorting second-hand clothing when it had been brought in and just for amusement more than anything, I started to teach myself values or try and guess values. And don’t know whether – a guy called Dick Smith had been with the company for many years ran the department – I don’t know whether he mentioned it or what, but he suddenly said, you know, the governor, which is Harry Moss said you know, d’you want to try and start to do a little bit of buying? Which I did. First indoors, when people brought things in and then I did a call, an outside call where someone had called in and said they had a large wardrobe of clothing, all their late husband or late father’s effects, which is how the business was done. So I went out, bought it, as I recall I paid far more than I should have done for it, it was a good salutary lesson, and sort of developed from there on in. And I think it must have been in the early sixties that Harry Moss said, well look, we’d like you to solely concentrate on buying and broaden your brief, do whatever you want. He gave me the proud title of Visiting Buyer and did very, very well fortunately, at this, seemed to have a natural aptitude towards it Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 192 C1046/011 Track 20 and also started to look into areas where despite, the company at that stage was about a hundred, just over a hundred years old, looking at areas that had not hitherto been looked at. For instance, on the site that is now the Didcot power station, was a huge war office equipment storage with its own internal railway and anything and I picked up wind that there was going to be a massive sale there and went down there and bought an enormous load of First World War saddlery, all in fantastic condition and things like horse brushes, all still in wax paper. It was an unbelievable treasure trove and came back with a load of that sort of stuff and I suppose gradually, for the want of a better word, my reputation started to build that I had some sort of commercial flair and could see what was happening. I think we talked about then when I went in to start buying furs, we had the fur hire business – did I touch upon this?

I did, but in that bit that you’ve just said, I’d like to ask a few things.

Sure.

First of all, I think you said you were a porter…

Yeah.

…in the offer department. What did the porter do?

Porter carried the bundles of clothing, carried the bundles of clothing up to the workrooms where they had to be repaired, or had to be sent to be cleaned, then picked up the bundles and brought them back. And when we sold merchandise to dealers, we’d have to bundle the things up for them. I mean there was plenty of portering to keep me busy.

So who was supervising you at that stage?

I suppose I worked closely with a man called Peter Shaw, his father had been connected with the firm for many years and Peter was working there. And I suppose Dick Smith, who was the manager of the department.

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And what was Dick Smith like?

Dick Smith was not dissimilar to me in height, slightly bristly at first, been with the company since he was a boy, but reasonably okay to work with, as was Peter Shaw. You know, these guys were perfectly okay. There was one particular time when I made my breakaway, started to make my breakaway, ie Peter had been there for many years so he was obviously my senior, but I had a call from someone who wanted to offer me a job and obviously word had got back to Harry Moss because he said, you know – and that may well have been the time, thinking back on it, that the visiting buyer thing came on – and Harry Moss said to me, ‘Look, you know, we have to pay you more money because we want to keep you, and we’ll alter your job’, you know, and they explained to Peter Shaw that you know, this was the way of the world and that’s what happened. It wasn’t a political move by myself – I’m trying to think of the name of the company, they had shops in the Charing Cross Road I believe, but the head office was out in Croydon, but word soon gets about in the industry, although the clothing industry’s a very, very large one, it is very much a cottage industry, everyone seems to know everyone else. So that’s portering and how portering in turn – and the other thing I then started to do would be to look at garments, which is when I started to value them – to decide what work needed to be done on them to bring them up to standard to be sold.

Can you give an example of that?

Yep, you’d look at a jacket, you’d see if there was any stitching needed to be done, if there were any buttons needed to be done, if linings needed to be repaired, if there were perspiration marks under the arm where, you know, had sweatpads to be put in, whether the buttonholes needed redoing to bring them up to scratch. So it was while I was doing that, looking through gar… looking through trousers to see whether they needed new pockets because they were stained or torn, whether the crotch area, you know, that needed to be relined if that was done in white which shows all stains anyway. So it was just a question of looking over the garments and getting them ready. And then when you bring them back to check that all the work had been done.

So… Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 194 C1046/011 Track 20

So that’s where my knowledge of tailoring of course became rather useful because what I did know, I did know what I was talking about when I was looking at garments to see what needed to be done.

Does that mean that the people you were working with didn’t have that knowledge?

They’d had the – Peter Shaw had had a long time experience of doing it, but had no practical experience of what was entailed. There’s a lot of difference Anna, in saying yes, that needs replacing or that needs doing, but then being able to work out in your mind quickly whether it was gonna be cost effective or not because of your knowledge as to how long it would take.

When you say you practised valuing, how would you do that?

Well each, when everything was bought, it would have a tape put on it, it would be given a number, have a tape. If it was a two-piece or three-piece suit they would have the same tape so they all come together if they were split up. So what I’d do is I’d avoid looking at the tape, ‘cos the tape would have the cost price on it in code, which we understood because this was it, and I would instead of looking at the tape, I’d look at it, put a value in my mind and then check it out against the tape to see how close I was.

And did it come naturally?

I suppose I have to say yes. I have to say, you know, it wasn’t at all difficult.

When you said you were almost headhunted, as it were, by this other company, was that from when you started to be doing valuing, was that what they were trying to…

No, they wanted me for the retail side. I think they wanted me on the buying side. Trying to think of the name of the company – Blake’s, that’s what it was called, Blake’s. Long since gone the way of all flesh. But they wanted me to come in as a trainee buyer or buyer because obviously, how word gets around with these things, this strange chap there, he Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 195 C1046/011 Track 20 seems to know a hell of a lot about the garment, menswear garment business, not only in terms of value but in terms of construction and everything else. So the previous ten years hadn’t been entirely wasted.

And what was Blake’s status at that time?

I think they were sort of – in those days there were quite a lot of middle range menswear businesses with about five or six shops in their chain, so they would have been middle. Because the interesting thing back in those days, the mass market was catered for by made- to-measure tailoring. ‘Cos you had Burton, you had Willerby, you had Weaver to Wearer – all these people – Alexandra’s, all these people did suits to measure, in these vast factories. Whereas these smaller retailers specialised more in ready-to-wear and were more the complete outfitters, in addition, although sort of the large multiples did the accessories like shirts, ties, these smaller people had a greater concentration on being more a complete outfitters.

Were you tempted?

I don’t think I had time to be tempted, I think word had got back by the time I got back to… [laughs]

So, when you began buying, how did your ability to value assist that process, the buying process?

Oh, it was absolutely vital because you know, obviously the values that I was establishing were values that the experienced buyers were doing, like there was Dick Smith and Charlie Wilkins, who was the assistant manager, who left shortly after I became buyer, he went off to Australia with his family, but you know, I was sort of matching myself against them and could pitch within the nearest pound to them and they’d been doing it for, it would seem, hundreds of years. [laughs]

What had been their background, somebody like Dick Smith?

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Both Dick and Charlie had joined Moss Bros as boys and had been dumped into which particular department – they’d had no sort of technical background at all. Just sort of learnt it by, you know, watching someone else do it in a not dissimilar way to me, but without the advantages I had of my previous - before I made this major career change from tailor to porter. Now you know, if you want to do a career change to go forward, that’s the way to do it.

But, one minute you were a porter and the next someone says that you can go and buy.

But I was still doing a bit of portering as well, there was a transitional period where I would, occasionally when customers brought things in, oh Manny, will you see to this, attend to this lady or gentleman, and then the occasional buy and then gradually, as I did more and more and more buying, so someone else was brought in, someone much older than myself, was brought in to do more of the portering and I spent more of my time actually buying, both internal, both you know, internal buying and going out on the road.

So, the people that came in to you to sell second-hand goods, what kind of people were they?

Come across… very difficult, how can we best… If we look at it in terms of the old socio- economic classes, I would say from the upper Cs, Bs and As. Because it was quality merchandise that we were wanting and there was a lot more in the way of bespoke tailoring going on and course another thing that I did, which - this psychiatrist’s couch of yours takes me back more and more – the other thing I did, I also started to buy the West End tailors’, Savile Row tailors’ misfits, because they would often be left with clothing on their shelves which had either gone wrong or customers never collected and I built up a connection with all the, or most of the West End tailors and once a year I’d go and buy what they’d have left on their shelves. So it was more the middle to better quality. We occasionally bought the less expensive merchandise.

Can you give an example, I don’t know if you can remember, but for example the Savile Row misfits, how much would you be able to buy them for?

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Puh! Golly, golly. I would have thought for about twenty, twenty-five pounds, because they would have probably sold for not much more say than a hundred and twenty. So if the West End tailor didn’t want to sell a ready-to-wear suit, which is what it had then become, and sometimes they were almost unsaleable with the alterations that had been done. So we were able to, we could buy them at say, if I’d buy them at twenty-five, we’d sell them at fifty-five, which is much less than a retailer’s margin today. But someone then could buy a good Savile Row suit, if it fitted them well, at less than half if they went into a Savile Row tailor. And in those days there were an absolute multiplicity of these lovely tailoring shops. If you ever take a walk down Savile Row and little shops round there, tailorings, you’ll see about, on some of them, ten different names. And all of them are established, they were established West End tailoring houses twenty, thirty years ago, but of course it’s contracted, a), don’t know which came first, the demand decreased or the inability to get, to recruit labour, but they gradually closed and the more successful ones bought the names.

Like brand names?

Yeah. You know, there would houses, I remember like, oh, Rogers and Co, Meyer and Mortimer, great names in bespoke tailoring, no longer exist other than a label. It was interesting to see, you know, how that side of life developed and of course now we’re actually probably going to witness the decline of Savile Row from its current status as the home of current tailoring, because with all the redevelopment and refurbishment that’s going on, the West End tailors can’t afford the premises any more and you’re getting all sorts of people coming in. Ready-to-wear people, not necessarily at the top end. There’s the rumour that – not Prada, I’m trying to think of the, can’t think of the name – the corner opposite Gieves and Hawkes – it’ll come to me in a moment. But there’s a rumour now that they’re not gonna make it and that Abercrombie and Fitch might be taking it. And that’s what’s happening to Savile Row, so the great cachet that this small street had were literally worldwide, is gonna be eroded, and it’s a great pity because it is, not only is it part of national heritage, but it is also part of the commercial value of the area, but there, these things happen, so they happen, you know, not a lot you can do about it.

So, where will the bespoke tailors go? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 198 C1046/011 Track 20

Oh, I suppose some will amalgamate and those that have still been able to retain their premises will probably amalgamate further and they’ll probably find the little places in the less fashionable parts of the area like Cork Street. But they’re in places like Cork Street and the little streets round there Anna, you’ve got the art galleries going in. So it’s part of an evolutionary process, but when you’ve built something as precious as Savile Row, which is immediately recognised worldwide as the home of the best tailoring in the world, and to see it sort of go this way is a great shame, but call it progress in a weird sort of way. But that’s life. For me, I’ve sort of no direct commercial interest in it one way or the other, but I do have a very close affinity to what it stands for, which is the ultimate in craftsmanship and it is a great, great pity if it is sort of going to be devalued. Jil Sander is the name of the company I was trying to think of. These senior moments seem to take longer to recover from. [laughs] But it’s the effect I think you have on me with this fierce look that you give me when I can’t tell you what you need to know immediately. [laughs]

Erm well [laughs]…

Passing quickly on. [laughs]

Yes, [inaudible]. Could you give me a brief history of how Savile Row came into being?

Well, I’m not the great historian on Savile Row, but of the original Savile Row, the first Savile Row company was Henry Poole and it is still run by the fifth generation and the sixth generation of Pooles. Names are Cundy because it was on the other side of the family, but they started, I believe, though history says that they were the first of them and obviously all of this can be checked out, but I know they’ve just celebrated their hundred and seventieth or hundred and eightieth year in business there. And I think what then happened was in that area, a lot of the people not only had indoor workshops but used outdoor tailors to make things and they were all in that area and gradually the street – you know, it’s the same thing as why was it Carnaby Street and not the street next to it? Don’t know, accident of time. But it gradually grew and then you had tailors on the adjoining streets as well. One the oldest established tailors, one of the finest tailors, they’ve now had to come out of their building, company called Anderson and Sheppard’s – beautiful, Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 199 C1046/011 Track 20 beautiful tailoring business. Just had to go, you know, the way of all flesh. You know, sort of jumping ahead, but the building in which Huntsman’s have their business, the Packer family own the freehold and back after I left Moss Bros, and we’ll come on to this as we’re now talking about 1987, but with a consortium of friends we bought the building and it’s one thing living rent free in premises, even though when my clients on my advisory side, even if they own the freehold, I always make them put in, when we do the accounts, a notional rent to establish the true value of whether you’re making profit or not, or whether you have sort of an advantageous lease or the freehold. Then the decision’s up to you as an individual, if it’s your bat and ball, to do with as you play, as you see, rather. But you have to get it clear in your own mind whether you are profitable or not and I think once the building, once they had to pay a rental, suddenly they found life tough and that’s a business that has recently again, gone into administration and been bought out again, but one of the greatest names. And you know, as I say, it’s a changing world.

What about Moss Bros, did they have the freehold?

We had the freehold, again, one of the last things that I did and we’ll go in greater depth in this because it’s part of what I did when I became Chief Executive, but the, as I recall, the Covent Garden property was in the books for nine hundred thousand and I pushed through, against, certainly against Monty Moss’s wishes because it was costing money to do it, we applied for planning application, which went to appeal. I gave evidence in chief and I think two weeks after I was fired, although it was already known, we were given planning permission and the building was subsequently sold about two years later for about twenty- five million. Interesting what it became, it became the first Tesco Metro, it was the pilot scheme for Tesco’s Metro concept.

I’m sure I’ve got confused. So you were fired before or after the…?

I was fired after the planning appeal had been conducted, but just before the result was publicly announced.

Were you fired?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 200 C1046/011 Track 20

Yes. But we’ll go into that in greater depth, which is one of the reasons why I might want a hundred years embargo, because I can justify everything that I say, but I don’t want to either libel or slander anyone or even knowingly do so because the courts can be very strange about this and what looks to be a cast iron case ain’t necessarily so in the words of the Gershwin song.

[laughs] Okay, I’ll look forward to that. [laughs] So back to you as a buyer then, as well as clothes, what were people bringing in?

I would buy anything and everything. It just, I can’t rationalise it, but I would buy anything. In those days I would even buy shotguns. I knew the basics that you had to look for. I’d buy saddles. I knew that the only thing you had to be sure is make sure with a saddle that the back wasn’t broken. We had a saddlery department so I spent a couple of days in there just checking out what it was. I’d buy literally anything, that I thought there was a relevance to our business. Binoculars, as I said, saddlery, guns, all sorts of things. Whatever there was to be sold within the lot, as we used to call it, and I’d put a value on it.

So, where were they sold, these items?

In Moss’s.

Which department?

The offer department, which was primarily the name of the department that sold it because eventually what we did is we made the department that sold, we turned that into the offer department rather than the SH clothing department, second-hand clothing department, and we turned the, what was the offer department into the buying department. So they were all sold in the – the clothing would be sold in the offer department which dealt with clothing. We had a binoculars department, so the second-hand binoculars would be sold alongside the new binoculars. Guns, we had mainly were second-hand really, didn’t stock new. We had a few in those days, but it was long before all these nonsenses, you didn’t really have to have heavy protection. Because we bought a little guns and fishing business from a little shop opposite the road when they closed down. But we had a big business in Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 201 C1046/011 Track 20 saddlery. So they were all sold in their respective departments. Bought military uniforms, bought peers’ robes, all these sort of things which are all used for the hire, for hiring the state, you know, the state openings of Parliament and things of that nature.

So, would the people who sold the items be similar to the people who would buy them second-hand?

If it were sort of things like officers’ uniforms, because you remember when we talked about the earlier days, the history of Moss Bros, they’d acquired all these uniforms and then the First World War came and they’d got all these uniforms. Similar situation. And in those days with National Service, some young officer cadets going to do their National Service would see if they could buy a second-hand service dress and number one blues, rather than spend all their money, all their kit allowance on new. So having originally been involved in making them, I then suddenly found myself buying them and involved with the selling of them. And they would have been sold through the military department. Things like swords, ceremonial swords. You may have read, interesting, I was very sad to see recently in the newspaper that Wilkinson’s have now stopped making ceremonial swords…

[End of Track 19]

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 202 C1046/011 Track 20

[Track 20]

…this is rather sad, which is what their business was founded on originally.

So how did you gain knowledge of swords and guns?

I suppose an enquiring mind, I’d spend time in the department looking at what new stuff was like. If I knew there was an indication, or if there was an indication that there might have been something in the lot that I was going to value because the secretary would have said, well what exactly is it you have to sell, then they’d say well we’ve got twenty suits, dum, dum, this, that, shirts, ties, underwear, de-dum, de-dum, de-dum. Oh and there’s some guns or fishing rods, so I’d go down to the department and have a quick chat and have a quick look. And none of this was worked out in my own mind, it just, you know, to me it seemed to be the natural thing to do.

What was your motivation?

I honestly don’t know. I don’t think I was consciously trying to better myself, I may have been subconsciously doing it, but I was just enjoying what I was doing. It was great fun.

What was fun?

Just doing it, there was a certain, in inverted commas, “intellectual challenge”. And there was the challenge of developing new areas, new opportunities, and you know, and it was, enjoyed being patted on the back when I’d done rather well. [laughs]

By?

By the people who paid the salaries.

But what about Dick Smith and what was it, Charlie…?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 203 C1046/011 Track 20

Well Charlie Wilkins went on, went out to Australia. Peter Shaw unfortunately got mixed up in some unfortunate business which meant that after many, many, many years in the business, parted company, but I’m afraid I left them all behind.

But who would be patting you on the back?

Oh, Harry Moss.

And how would Dick Smith, for example, react to that?

With a big smile, you know, smile on his lips and a tear in his eye. But no, Dick was okay, ‘cos Dick was very, very, very loyal to the company, very loyal. Came from an entirely different generation, although I had that same sort of loyalty as well. And as far as Dick was concerned, if Harry Moss was happy, then he was more than happy to live with it.

Can we talk about your salary?

If I can remember what it was, yes.

[laughs] Roughly.

At that time it would have been about twenty pounds a week. No, it was less than that, because Basil Moss, you know, at the time – ‘cos Basil Moss was – it’s very interesting, thank you, ‘cos it takes us back a bit further. At the time that I’d been talking to the Blake’s people or they’d invited me to come and talk to them, Basil Moss had obviously heard about it and called me up…

Which one was Basil?

Basil was the other side of the Moss family. You remember me telling you, there were two sides of the Moss family and Basil was one of Alfred Moss’s sons and a major shareholder at the time, and he was Personnel Director at the time. And you know, he did say to me, you know, if you stick with us, you could be earning a thousand a year one day. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 204 C1046/011 Track 20

Gives you an indication of how long ago it all was, wasn’t it? Gives you an indication. It’s frightening isn’t it? And a thousand a year was aspirational, it really was. You know, you had really reached C1, B class at that sort of money.

What year are we talking?

We’re talking now, I would think late fifties. Late fifties.

You keep using this C1, B – what d’you mean by…?

These are socio-economic classes, it’s sort of well established in all the textbooks. The As are the nobility, Bs are professional middle to upper class and as I say, they are generally accepted socio-economic structures, they’re in all the textbooks, not only in the retail industry. I think they’re still used by the Office for National Statistics and things like this. So C1s would be white collar workers, C2s would be not quite at that level and Ds and Es would be blue collars and sort of semi-unemployables. But as I say, you can find that out from any standard textbook. It’s still one of the formats I think that are used by, in identifying target markets by advertising agencies, marketing people, still define their target market in socio-economic terms.

Okay. So, back to Basil Moss.

So back to Basil Moss said, you know, you were asking about salary, so I must have been earning less than a thousand a year at that time because that was the goal. So it probably would have been about seven hundred, seven hundred and fifty.

And then you went outside to buy, where did you go?

To, I’d either go to West End tailors to their showrooms to look at the merchandise there or I’d go to people’s homes, or to auctions.

What homes?

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Some of them were absolutely unbelievably palatial. I always remember, they were a very famous family, always remember this one and we seemed to be driving – before I learnt to drive I used to have a van and driver – so if we did a deal I’d buy the goods at the time. And always remember, there was a very famous family called the Ostrers. Now the Ostrers were primarily in the film business, Gainsborough Studios were theirs, then they bought a company called Illingworth Morris and attempted to corner the world wool market. They caught a nasty cold at the time of the Korean War when wool prices plummeted, but I remember going to them and driving what seemed to be for an eternity up the drive after we got through the guarded gates and when we got to the house, the car was surrounded it seemed by dogs of about small pony sizes and someone came out and said, ‘Oh no, they’re alright’. And I said, ‘You know they’re alright, I know they’re alright, but do they know they’re alright?’ I don’t get out of this car, or van or whatever it was, until they’re locked up. If not, we turn round and go. Absolutely unbelievable. Always remember also, you know, some beautiful home – a lot in Mayfair, Chelsea and places like The Boltons and places like that. But we’d have a whole variety, got to various apartments. A lot of buying was done in the Esher, Guildford area where you’d have the middle, middle upper classes, the white collar. So there’d be a lot there. Never go much further afield unless the lot really justified it and then you didn’t really know until you got to see it because there may have been fifty suits, but they could have been the biggest lot of old junk – until you’ve actually looked at it, you don’t know. One of the things that always used to amuse me when people brought clothes, particularly men, brought their own clothes into Moss’s and they’d say, this suit’s got too small for me. Now, always wanted to say to them, look, clothes don’t alter, they don’t alter themselves, you’ve got too big or if they’ve got too big for you, you’ve got too small for you, but don’t blame the bloody clothes, they’ve stayed the way they are. But people will say this, you know, I want to sell this suit, it’s got too small for me. The suit hasn’t got too small, they’ve got too big for it.

[laughs] But you mustn’t.

No, no, this is it. Occasionally, if we had the right relationship. But out of that came a rather important event or meeting that also helped my move in a different, in an upward direction, for the want of a better word. One day someone came in – and I won’t mention Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 206 C1046/011 Track 20 names here – but their father-in-law had passed away and they brought some things in and I did the deal with them and he, his address was London Rowing Club. And I said, ‘Oh interesting, I know about London Rowing Club, I’ve done a bit of coxing myself down at Oxford House, which is on the River Lea, at Clapton’. And he said, ‘Oh interesting’ he said, ‘because you know we’re currently short of coxswains, would you like to come to London Rowing Club for a trial?’ Now you are talking about one of the blue blood, one of the top, not this year but last year, we won two pots at Henley, and one of the blue bloods of rowing, which was unbelievable and obviously with an entirely different membership to that which I’d enjoyed down at the River Lea at Clapton. And I went along and was invited to join, but of course suddenly, mixed in with an entirely different circle of people that I’d never met with before. I would say nine-tenths of them were university graduates and it was a whole new world. But I was made very welcome, became part of it, learnt some decent table manners [laughs] and it brought me into an entirely new world. And again I suppose, helped to give me a little bit more confidence, although by that time I wasn’t exactly running short of confidence, but I was still a little bit shy, but from that side of life, it helped very much.

Did you meet connections there that were helpful to you?

Not in the business sense, no. Certain people sort of, I came closer to than others, but there’s nothing I could say of anyone that I met during my time when I was coxing regularly or subsequently with my – I still get slightly involved with rowing – that was ever a connection in terms of business, but in social terms, it was very, very good. It was the first time I wore black tie, although I’d been working for Moss Bros for many years, when I went to a London Rowing Club dinner. And the first time I wore morning coat was for the wedding of one of my crew. So it introduced me to a world that I would never have normally gone into.

You didn’t mention before that you’d done coxing before.

No…

When was that? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 207 C1046/011 Track 20

Because it now, it fits really into this part of what we’re talking about, because I thought it was more relevant round about this time because it was roundabout this time that more things started to come together. So in the earlier part of this magnum opus we were talking about various things that I’d done, and that was something that I’d just done as a bit of fun. But it had no, at that stage had no real relevance.

Just so I know though, when, what age…?

I would have thought about 1952, so I’d have been about twenty-ish. Because I tell you, I can put a fix on it because it was at the time when I went to work with Sam Knight in Clapton and met a few guys in the café which I used to go for lunch, get a sandwich or what have you, and one of them was a rowing man, he rowed for Oxford House, he was a motor mechanic, went on to have his own business, Brook Motors, a man called Derek Marshall. And he said, ‘Why don’t you come down there? Bit of fun, we go for a drink afterwards and what have you’, and that’s how that fitted in. But an entirely different aspect of life to what I subsequently went on to do. I mean to say, there’s a lovely story that we tell. We took a boat up to Cambridge for the weekend, I was obviously the only one in the crew that hadn’t been to Cambridge and I steered, we went on the Cam and because it’s still water and very narrow, the boat doesn’t have a fin, so you slide the rear end round instead of turning it, and I’d sort of, because I’d sort of steered on the River Lea which is similar water, unlike the Thames which is tidal, with currents, I could do it rather well and we were having, we were deep into our cups that evening and someone said, ‘Oh, he didn’t steer at all badly did he?’ And someone said, ‘No, it’s a pity, if he wasn’t such a little ignorant bleeder he could have probably come up to Cambridge and got a blue’. You know, I’d steered particularly well, more by luck than judgement. And then someone else said, ‘But he’s so bloody ignorant, what could he have read?’ And someone suddenly said, ‘Pornography’. [laughs] I’d have got a double first, I promise you.

Would you?

I’d have done my best.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 208 C1046/011 Track 20

[laughs]

As with all things. I find [coughs] – now you’ve made me cough. I’ve made you blush and me cough. No, I find you know, if one’s gonna do something, one does it at one’s best, one has to apply oneself. You have to make sacrifices in this life.

[both laughing]

It’s hard to know whether you were – I thought you were actually telling me, but anyway.

You work it out for yourself, think about it.

Okay. So er, yeah, so…

Will you stop thinking about it for a moment, please and let’s get back…

[both laughing]

So, wearing black tie for the first time. What were the social skills that you felt you gained through that?

Confidence was really what I had gained. Although I had learnt to mix, you know, if you’ve been brought up working class and only working class, you come back to this thing that we see with the Ronnie Barker – ‘I look up to him because he’s upper class, I look down on him because he’s working class’. Now, I was very much, both in stature and socio-economic classification, Ronnie Corbett. But it helped to take me initially up to Ronnie Barker and confident when dealing with the tall guy. That’s what it did for me. Whereas I could deal with the top level if I had to deal with them on the buying side, because I was playing at home on that, confident with that. Socially, I found it very difficult, on the very rare occasions when it did happen. Whereas once I’d got into a scene where I was spending a lot of time, and if you’ve got an eight, you’re all together, you know, the eight plus cox can’t function if one of you isn’t around. So you do become very much close knit and you know, spend time together. And it’s that. And I think also what Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 209 C1046/011 Track 20 made it pleasant for me was that I was readily accepted. They obviously were that desperate for a coxswain that I was readily accepted.

Who were the friends?

Oh! These days we don’t see much of each other, but I suppose – trying to remember names now, it’s all so difficult to, but I know Andrew Sargent in particular – that’s the only name that comes to mind because we don’t see – we meet up occasionally at Henley – I’ve not been to Henley for the last couple of years because I’ve been out of town at that time – but you know, you meet up with them. And Brian, Brian, Brian – can’t think of his surname. But you know, a number of people. I mean there was Owen, there was Colin – a whole crowd of guys, but you know, I think I’ve told you before haven’t I, the four stages of a man, so you know, we’re still at the name stage so we don’t have to worry too much. [laughs]

[laughs] But, if those relationships changed you in some ways, how did you previously relate to people from a different class?

Well, they only had to be above because as I say, I was the small, I’m the working class guy, I look up to everyone. I just, nothing changed as far as my old friendships were concerned, they were all there. Last night, Patricia was going out to a charity do, a stem cell charity evening with a film I certainly didn’t want to see and if I was right, because her view of it was, was that it wasn’t all that, so I said to Jeremy, you know, because Patricia will never come out and have fish and chips with us, we’ve got a marvellous fish and chip shop, so we said we’ll go and have fish and chips. We walk into this place and the guy and his, obviously wife, sitting there smiling at me and they said, ‘It’s Manny isn’t it?’ and I said, ‘This cannot be denied’. I’ve not seen them since the fifties and they said to me, ‘You haven’t changed a bit’. And Jeremy’s eyebrows go up to heaven, here’s somebody else. And you know, I sat down, I was able to go back with them immediately to that time. What for me was so good was, it wasn’t a sort of coming away from where I’d been and going somewhere else. Where I think I’ve been very, very fortunate, for me it was a broadening. And I think part of this broadening process then helped to change the way, I probably became even more confident when dealing with the Moss family and the Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 210 C1046/011 Track 20 directors of the business. You know, a different level of confidence and you know, and didn’t have to be hidden behind the cabinet in case I showed myself up when the right people were around. You know, just suddenly there was a broadening and a changing.

How would you speak to people like that before and how would you speak to them afterwards?

There’s always, well sort of respectfully, respectfully. But as I became more confident in myself and dealing with people and having as chums if you like, and rowing friends, who I could swear the pants off in the boat and afterwards when training, you know, suddenly the Moss family and the other senior people didn’t seem quite so remote and from another planet any more. You know, they were no different in many respects to the crew and that probably subconsciously may have changed my attitude. Or not necessarily my attitude, but the way, you know, I think confidence is really the best way to describe it Anna.

Would it change your language at all?

No, I’ve always had a foul mouth, had it before and I had then and I have it now. [laughs] If sufficiently provoked – I think the best story about that – again I was reminded recently of this when Colin Moynihan was appointed to run the Olympic committee thing, I always remember at the hundred and twenty-fifty anniversary of London Rowing Club we had a dinner at Mansion House and Colin Moynihan was then Minister of Sport and the late lamented Peter Coney who went on to become President of London Rowing Club, Chairman of Stewards, and he was a QC, was sort of hosting it as it were, with Colin Moynihan who had been a coxswain. And when the late lamented Coney, who was a fantastic character, introduced us, he said, ‘Colin, Manny like you happens to be a cox’ and then looked at us both and said, ‘Colin, I think you’re probably worth six lengths on him in terms of steering on the boat race course, but he’ll swear you off the river in two minutes flat’. [laughs] And I was just reminded of it, because I think it was last week that Colin Moynihan was appointed as Chairman of sort of the organising committee or whatever it is for the 2012 Olympics.

[laughs] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 211 C1046/011 Track 20

Now you can’t have a better endorsement than that.

So, that helped?

It helped in many respects, yeah. It didn’t, I suppose – how can I best put it? I think, as with all these things, you manage to catch me on the hop. I think what it did is it added to my social skills in that I felt less uncomfortable at receptions and things like that and gradually found these things became easier and easier.

And what was the next stage in your, in your progress?

The rake’s progress. [laughs] The rake’s progress. I think that the next big move or the next thing that happened to further my career and I think we touched upon this briefly when we spoke earlier was that because of my knowledge of the tailoring business, the buying, being involved with clothing, Harry Moss said look, you know, we seem to be getting a lot of alterations with our ready-to-wear, will you take a look at it? Now, I’d never done this sort of thing before in my life, but I can do it, what is it? And what I did is I did an analysis over a period of a month of all the alterations that were done on ready-to- wear. I can’t remember what the breakdown was, but I was able to show that ninety per cent of the alterations on both trousers and jackets were lengthening or shortening and all we needed to do was alter the pattern and we’d obviate all those alterations.

But, when you’re told to do an analysis, what did you think that was, how did you…

No, I said I would do an analysis.

What is an analysis?

An analysis to me in those days would be to break it down, to do an exercise to analyse what was actually happening. It’s a practical – to me an analysis, then and now, is a practical exercise to look at a series of events, a series of operations to see the make up of Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 212 C1046/011 Track 20 it, to take it apart if you like and to see what are the various factors and what are the outcomes.

And how would you record that, that information?

I would just look at the alteration records for the day and log them. Now I’d never done that before, but to me it seemed [laughing], it was just there, that’s how you did, you know, to me it seemed the most obvious thing in the world to do.

And did you then have to present the results?

Oh yes. And I presented my report to Harry Moss and Monty, ‘cos of the family, they made a bit of a do of it, plus Harry Floyd who was the Production Director, who was absolutely sick as a parrot because he had his own protégé and I then just walked straight through. Well we then come to, we’ll then come to the next stage of that, but, and after that I was given a freer hand in terms of buying in any way, you know, as you remember I told you, we had a fur hire department and after a fur, anything’s worn once it becomes second-hand, so what the hell were we doing buying new furs, paying a hundred per cent luxury tax on them when we could buy them for less than half the price in the auctions. It added enormously to the profit. It was just, again, to me – I’m sure I got, I didn’t get everything right for one moment, let’s not say, I started off by paying vastly over the odds, but I did learn to become far more careful and think it through before I did anything, I’d sort of try again, again to analyse why I was following a certain route and what the outcome might be in commercial terms.

When you made a mistake, how would you deal with that?

If I couldn’t hide it, I’d plead guilty. Or even better, rather than hide it, lose it. Rather in the manner of certain Cabinet Ministers recently. If I couldn’t spin my way out of it… [laughs]

But you would try to?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 213 C1046/011 Track 20

Oh initially, it’s human nature.

You spoke of your supervisors when you were in the offer department, but at this stage when you’d moved to…

Oh, I was more or less reporting straight through, you know. I’d become, not the golden boy, but I had become some…

[End of Track 20] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 214 C1046/011 Track 21

[Track 21]

…one, who obviously had something. Fact of life, you know. It was there, the bottom line was there with everything I did. Just happened to work out that way.

What were your relationships with people who were contemporary in age in the company?

I tried to maintain them, but I don’t know whether it was my fault, but not very often, but people seemed to grow away from me. Now I don’t think it was resentment particularly, it may have been in one or two areas, but you know, it seemed as though, you know, I was just continually going forward. Working all hours – one of the things, I was always there, working all hours to get the job done. If I’d bought in a big lot, I wouldn’t leave the building until I’d sorted it all out, I’d driven back, got someone to help me unload it and then I’d go through it. And I wouldn’t leave till maybe seven, eight o’clock at night sometimes. Just, that’s the way it was, particularly if the crews weren’t, if we weren’t training, you know, I was able to do that.

But apart from with London Rowing Club, did you have any other social life?

Yeah, I had a group of chaps who I was friends with, who’d we’d go to the Lyceum over the weekend or you know, wherever the public dances were, local baths or what have you. And that was the normal social life, go to mixed youth clubs in the evening, all that sort of thing. Just the conventional type of life at that time, which you’ll see, I seem to be seeing more of on television, you know, it seems to be the contemporary thing to do to show what life was like for sort of ageing teenagers in the fifties.

You mentioned your first proper girlfriend earlier, did you have relationships in your twenties?

Oh, a series of them I’m happy to say. [laughs] A series of them. You know, in the normal course of growing up. I think what tends to happen is you either meet someone very early on and it’s a love at first sight match and marry in your late teens or early twenties and in those days, you know, the relationship was made to work, through good Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 215 C1046/011 Track 21 times and bad, ‘cos all relationships have difficult times and a lot depends on the given circumstances, or on the circumstance at that given time as to how prepared both parties are willing to work at sustaining the relationship. Bit of a mouthful, but that’s what it is really. It’s, you know, being prepared to work at sustaining the relationship. So, you know, you either did that or you know, you just sort of carried on with life until the right person came along.

But it sounds like you were concentrating on work at that stage?

Probably yes, probably yes, but it didn’t interfere, didn’t interfere with the social life. The weekends were free, we’d go sort of, you know, regattas at the weekend and what have you. But the interesting thing is that none of my girlfriends came through the rowing. Well you didn’t have girls in rowing as such as a sport at that time, but there were lots of – and I won’t call them rowing groupies, far too well educated and well bred to be rowing groupies, but still had the same lustful attitudes [laughs]. But, you see you’re reaching this part of my life, but you know, I never had any real relationship at all from those sort of, from those people that I met, but it was girls that I’d met, or you know, friends of friends or girlfriends’ friends. You know, friends whose girlfriends had friends.

What social class?

Oh myself, very much myself.

How did you rate to women of upper class?

Probably slightly bristly. Probably slightly bristly, you know. Sort of almost a defence mechanism possibly. I would have thought looking back on it now, the reason I didn’t really get to have any sort of girlfriend through the rowing side was because you know, because I was somewhat bristly towards them.

Bristly?

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Yes, you know. Not my lovable self which you’ve seen over these last few meetings. Just one of those things is reaction. You know, I suppose in many respects I wanted to put up a façade so that I didn’t feel that they were patronising me. If I think about it, that’s what comes to mind.

So you were still sensitive?

Oh, to a fault. And nothing’s changed. [laughs]

So, back to work. You were improving efficiency in departments. What else, were there other…?

Then Harry Moss said to me the bespoke tailoring department seems to be losing ground, we had a very good bespoke tailoring department and a livery chauffeur’s uniforms, they both seem to be losing ground, will you take a look at them. And the livery department was somewhat more different, but I was just lucky, it just got busier, I don’t know why, probably because someone was paying more attention to what was happening on a day-to- day basis. But I looked at the bespoke department – I’m not sure that we haven’t touched on this before – but I looked at the bespoke department and I just had an idea. And I said well look, if a man and his wife can’t make up their mind which cloth to have, we’ll give you an extra commission if you say why don’t you have both. Basic… If they were plain they could both be cut at the same time, they could be fitted at the same time. Again, blatantly obvious. And we put it in and it more than justified the time I spent in the department. It’s just this series of fortuitous things that happened and luck as well, because nothing I really did in the livery department, except I did say to the guy that was running it, you need to, you know, be chasing a few more of the hotels. Let me have a list every week of the hotels you’ve contacted. And we started to get more business. And then a very interesting thing happened. First of all my brother-in-law and a partner of his, who he should never have had as a partner.

Brother-in-law?

My sister’s husband. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 217 C1046/011 Track 21

Ah.

Opened the first womenswear, ladies’ wear store in Carnaby Street, called Lady Jane of Carnaby Street, and I got to know Carnaby Street, it was an exciting place to be. And then one day I heard that there was a guy had a little business in the Portobello Road selling uniforms and I went along to see him, because up in Manchester we had a huge warehouse of old uniforms, military tunics, the scarlet ones, regiments that had gone out of existence, no longer relevant at all. So I went along to him and said, ‘Would you like to buy some uniforms?’ And he said, ‘I’m always interested in buying uniforms’. And he came along and he talks about it to this day, he said, I could not believe, it was Eldorado. This warehouse, stacked high. He bought the lot. We made an enormous amount of money out of it, Harry Moss was over the moon at having got rid of them. This little business, the guy’s business was called I Was Lord Kitchener’s Valet and he offered me ten per cent of the business, which we bought and my brother-in-law also got involved with it and we opened a big shop in Piccadilly Circus and we had a shop in Carnaby Street. And Harry Moss got to hear of this and said, ‘Look, if we put you on the board as a full director, will you sort of drop your activity with Carnaby Street’. So I sold my shares, made enough money to have a deposit for a house in Hampstead Garden Suburb and thereby hangs a tale. Again, it all falls into place, you know, John Paul, who I still see recently. Last time I did something with John Paul was, he opened, and unfortunately very expensive, it didn’t work, the first major lap dancing club in Mayfair with Jilly Johnson and I was brought in to advise on – believe it or not – on what the girls were gonna wear, not what they were gonna undress to. And where we really goofed unfortunately was, we had trouble with Westminster and all the dresses that I’d had designed for the girls to wear, beautiful evening dresses, were strapless because the girls were gonna go topless, there’s no problem with it now, and of course the problem that we then had, because they had straps you see and then the girls were gonna take them off and their bras off, ‘cos then we suddenly found that the bras were gonna show, so I got together with – I can’t remember all the detail – but Agent Provocateur who I know very well, ‘cos it’s Vivienne Westwood’s son, who I know Vivienne and I know Malcolm – but I got hold of him and he came in with Serena and we designed strapless bras for the girls.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 218 C1046/011 Track 21

When was this?

Where?

When?

About five years ago, the club was in Mayfair.

Okay, well you’ve mentioned that.

Oh, I’ve been, this is it, but I was there purely as adviser. There’s a lovely story I do tell, you know, certain things happen and you think you make these things up, but this actually happened for real, but I’ve still got a picture somewhere of myself, a huge picture in the Daily Mail, I always remember the first topless restaurant that opened round the back of Carnaby Street and we were there for the party and the following morning – and we’ll talk about Patricia in a few minutes, who’s very important in my life, very, very important – I picked up the telephone to speak to her the following day – she was starting going to Carnaby Street every evening, and I got the frozen earhole. So I wondered what that was all about and then people were looking and nudging and there was a picture about that size of me at this party, unmistakeably me with this double-breasted striped suit which I always wore in those days, with the topless waitress in this club. But we overcame that, but the funniest thing was I did actually in truth use the line, because I saw the girl about three weeks later and she said, ‘Hi Manny’ and I said, ‘Oh sorry, I didn’t recognise you with your clothes on’ and it was actually for real. So funny, you never think these things are gonna happen, but they will. I’ve still got a copy of that newspaper cutting, we still laugh about it from time to time. No, life has been good to me over the years. [laughs] But Carnaby Street, as I say, did help me considerably because it gave – now I may well, looking in retrospect, I may well have made the wrong decision, you know, I may well – I know John Paul went on to make a lot of money out of Kitchener’s Valet and then he teamed up with Charlie from Mr Freedom, because John Paul teamed up with Charlie from Mr Freedom. Oh it was Tommy Roberts rather, teamed up with Tommy. So that’s how the linking comes.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 219 C1046/011 Track 21

While you’re mentioning this topless incident…

How nicely put.

Yes, what’s your sort of, your attitude towards topless nightclubs, you know, that kind of place?

I don’t go to them myself, but we live in a different age now, I’m not a prude, but on the other hand I think it’s gone, certainly you know, I don’t know if you watched Panorama on Sunday. Now, I don’t mind, you know topless is something, but when you saw one of the girls going bottomless, you know. You know, these days, before you know, in my youth it was impossible to get a girl’s pants off, these days they don’t even bother to wear them, you know. Come on now. Now okay, so be it, but it does bring its own perils. I’ve never been to Stringfellows. Doesn’t happen to be my thing.

So how had this venture come about with John Paul, was that all his…

His doing, no he was having a bit of – what, with the lap club?

Mm.

Yeah, for some reason he was having a bit of trouble and he was finding it was very, very expensive getting evening dresses for the girls, designer made, and someone said, well look, you know Manny Silverman, talk to Manny about it. And I immediately said to him – again, one of these things, I said, well you know, John, what the hell are we doing talking about designers? Why don’t we go to a good ready-to-wear evening dress manufacturer because we’re gonna buy them in bulk, we’re gonna buy fifty or a hundred, and talk to a manufacturer who’ll do the designs for us, you know, at a fifth of the price. And so we did. So that’s how that came about. Anyway the business got into trouble, ran out of cash unfortunately. John had seen it done in America, he was the first really to bring it really into the country. Seen it done beautifully in America and wanted to do it here where the girls came out beautifully dressed in evening dresses and then you’d ask them to dance, do what had to be done, they take the evening dresses off. Now, Peter Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 220 C1046/011 Track 21

Stringfellow does it somewhat differently as do some of the other clubs. I have only been to one other strip club, down in Wapping, and that was because they were I think in trouble and they were talking to John Paul about amalgamating and John asked me to go down and take a look at the operation for him, meet the people, tell him what I thought. And that really was tacky. Honestly, some of the girls that they had for – I can’t even remember what it was called now – but some of the girls there were absolutely gorgeous and sort of very well educated girls, you know. Weren’t sort of, as it were, off the streets, for the want of a better term, you know. So how do I feel about topless? I could walk into a dressing room of model girls, all totally stripped, and it wouldn’t bother me, I wouldn’t be embarrassed and neither would they, because that’s the business side of it. And I can compartmentalise myself. I think I told you the lovely story of, did I, about the wonderful, the lovely, lovely coloured girl that we had, she used to come over from the States, used to model for us, had a white father and a coloured mother, also an actress, beautiful speaking voice, but used to do this lovely deep south accent. And her father had remarried, remarried a white woman and she said when I go to see them, I say to their guest, ‘I’s his, but I ain’t hers’. [laughs] And when she was accused she used to come in – because they didn’t have work permits – she used to come in in tracksuit, sloppy bottom with a huge bag with all her gear in, pretending to be an athlete and when customs would challenge her, ‘Why you honkies always give us coloured girls….’, you know, she did it beautifully. But walking through the back of the fitting room, she was about six foot one, six foot two, absolutely gorgeous, but impossibly funny. A load of people around and she was standing there wearing nothing but a smile and as I went past, she grabbed hold of me, holding me, my head sort of came, you know, the left arm, right arm, respective bosoms and in a loud voice she said, in this deep south voice, ‘Honey, why didn’t you come home last night?’ [laughs] In answer to your question, doesn’t bother me one way or the other. Maybe it should, I don’t know [laughing], maybe it’s a black mark against me, but you know, it is what it is. You know, when you’ve been around a long time you have a different view of these things. It’s, one still admires the human form, you know, attractive women, I’m very attracted to attractive women. This is me. But having said that, that’s in an entirely different context, but if it’s within a working environment, then you know, I find it easy just to – and never, the only long term relationship I’ve had with any female who I’ve met in the course of work is Patricia. That’s over thirty years. And she ain’t no… Again, you’ve heard the silly story, I told you the silly story didn’t I, you know, the one I always Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 221 C1046/011 Track 21 build into my speeches, you know, when someone said – a story we’ve made up – but you know, my son once said you know, that we really ought not to worry and it’s no business of ours – I normally do it at banquets and things like that if people say, you know, at a party not dissimilar to this that someone sitting next to Patricia said, well you know, it’s no business of mine – which it wasn’t actually – but really ought to mention to you that Manny is chasing model girls, chasing young clients in the fitting rooms, chasing young PRs, she said I can’t let it really worry me, you see, we’ve got a dog at home chases cars, can’t drive. [laughs]

[laughs]

So there, there Anna, there you have it.

[laughs] I like that. Okay.

So you know, there’s an answer to – good Lord, look at the time.

Have we got time to talk about how you met Patricia?

Yes. It would be in the sixties, I was already up the ladder. Patricia was working as a receptionist at Moss Bros. I’d managed to crash a car and was all bandaged up and looking very glamorous in my bandages and I saw this gorgeous redhead and someone had said to her, ‘That’s Manny Silverman’. ‘Oh’ she said, ‘that’s the person I’ve been hearing about’. That’s it, thereby hangs a tail.

When you say you were already up the ladder by then, what rung?

I suppose the second, I was already going out doing the buying.

But hadn’t joined the board yet?

I hadn’t no, no, no. It was before I joined, I joined the board in eighty-seven. So we first, it was a long time ago, she’d only just joined the company so – no, I’ve got my dates… it’s Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 222 C1046/011 Track 21 the, no I joined the board in sixty-seven, sorry. No, get my dates right, no joined the board late sixty-seven, so I was already sort of on the, by sixty-two I was already five years away and beginning to do things. And we embarked on a friendship which ebbed and flowed and culminated in marriage – have to be very careful with dates – in sixty-nine we got married.

But, you met in sixty-two?

I would think it’s about sixty-two. We still argue about the date that we actually got married.

Why’s that?

Neither of us can remember the date. Every year we have to go back and check on the formal documentation.

Do you celebrate your anniversary?

Oh yes. In various forms. And normally if Jeremy’s around we ask him to celebrate with us. Because he’s the outcome of the relationship and if he’s around and if he’s with someone at the time, we’ll say well bring her along with you. But as I say, he seems to be less and less with anyone, and so he seems to be more and more of a loner but happy to join us and so, no we always try and do something. For our thirtieth, well we didn’t take Jeremy, we had a few days at the Cipriani in Venice. [laughs] Which I regard as celebrating.

What was your marriage like?

We laugh a lot.

The actual ceremony though?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 223 C1046/011 Track 21

Oh the actual ceremony, we had a civil ceremony. We had a civil ceremony because we were of different faiths, so we had a civil ceremony.

And who came?

My mother, rest her soul, was already in a home so she came to the reception afterwards. Just friends and relatives and the Moss Bros board because what happened is that we were gonna have a very quiet ceremony, just get it over and done with and Monty Moss said no way, and after we left the reception, we left the registry office and it was a lovely day and Monty and Jane, his wife, gave us a very nice reception for family and friends at their home in Edmunds Walk, which is the back of where we live now anyway. So that’s the marriage and we’ve been together, thank God, ever since. We’ve had our ups and downs, but never, thank God, any major crises.

What’s her background?

Not dissimilar to mine, but particularly in those days, without the ambition. You know, life was different in those days. Like me, I think she’s probably slightly better educated, probably spent more time in school than I did, but really wasn’t going into a profession.

And how had she gravitated towards Moss Bros?

Well she was working, well she saw an advert for a job so she applied.

Did she have any particular interest in the company?

None. No, it was a job and a job was a job. And she left the company, well before we were married she’d left the company and gone on to work somewhere else, you know, and this is just the way it went. And you know, I think we both had other people we were involved with until such times as we decided it was time to get married.

Really?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 224 C1046/011 Track 21

Yeah.

Other relationships?

Yeah, well she had other boyfriends, I had other girlfriends. Although neither of us officially knew, we were both aware. You know, you know each other well enough to know, you know. And you know, but thank God, you know, as I said, we’ve now been married what, thirty-five years or so and we’re still able to constantly laugh.

What’s she like?

Tiny. On a bad day she’s a size eight, on a good day she’s a size six. Very figure conscious, I think she’s lovely – can show you what she’s like.

Lovely.

And super girl, super mum. And you know, as I say, we’re thank God, very, very happy together. We live, I suppose an int… we don’t live in each other’s pockets; she has a wide circle of friends, I’ve got quite a few friends and things that I do, which, as I say last night she went to this charity film. And she said to me, look, it’s not really something that you want to go to, but these are the details, if you fancy it, you know, please do but if you don’t, it’ll be okay won’t it if I go with Angela, one of her mates. I said, fine, it’s not for me. What I’ll do then, if Jeremy’s gonna be at home, then we’ll use the opportunity to go and have a bit of fish and chips. And this is how it works.

Were you thirty-seven when you…

About, it would be about that, thirty-seven, thirty-eight I think when I…

And how old was Patricia?

A lot younger. [laughs] Never tell a lady’s age.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 225 C1046/011 Track 21

Oh.

Not relevant to the story.

Well… [laughs]

But certainly a lot younger than me.

You said that you had a civil ceremony because of being different faiths. How d’you regard your faith?

My faith is important to me. Since our marriage, Patricia has taken a conversion course, our son’s been brought up Jewish, he’s had his bar mitzvah, which is Jewish confirmation, we keep a Jewish home, but without going over the top. I think with these sort of relationships and situations you have to find the right balance. And I like to think that we’ve found the right balance. Well as I say, it’s a relationship which has been sustained for well over thirty years and in this day and age, you know, you do a lap of honour for that, do…

[End of Track 21] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 226 C1046/011 Track 22

[Track 22]

…lap of honour for five years it would seem. You know, we were out not so long ago with two other couples and between the three couples, we had clocked up well over a hundred years of married life. You know, in this day and age it’s very, you have to have been around a little while to get from the starting point, but have a look around Anna today, how many relationships get sustained. And again, going off on one of my hobby horses, again I think it’s all too easy to walk away. All too easy to walk away, without you know, without giving due regard to the damage it possibly does to third parties like children. And I think all too often, you know, these relationships break up. You know, it’s when you start something. Once you take that first step, then you go back a second time and that I think is the great danger and – one doesn’t see it all too often close, because most of my friends are of a similar generation to myself or to Patricia and myself, you know. And Patricia’s sister has been married, just had their fortieth, you know, so there is that stability factor around. But as I say, unfortunately it seems to me all too easy. And you know, the divorce lawyers have built a very nice thriving industry.

Last time you talked about politics and you said that for various reasons you were Conservative, but in a wider sense in your general attitude towards social values, I mean how would you characterise those?

Liberal with a small ‘l’. [laughs]

But for example, marriage?

Yeah, I believe, I believe in marriage because I think it establishes a degree of permanency in the relationship. I don’t think it’s quite so important if there aren’t any children, that’s fair enough, but I believe that once the responsibility is there of children, which both parties hopefully have been responsible for the child coming into the world, then I think that there needs to be that further element of stability. I think it’s even, however easy it is these days to undo marriage, I still think that if you’ve got that factor of marriage in a relationship with children, I think you’ve just got that sort of fifteen, twenty per cent more chance of sustaining the relationship. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 227 C1046/011 Track 22

And your attitude towards other things in society?

Homosexuality – live and let love. The view I take is that as long as no-one wants to do it to me, I don’t mind.

What about, I mean a story that comes into my head is the thing about models using drugs, for example. How do you feel about that kind of issue?

I don’t, I can say hand on heart I have never taken any noxious sub… the worst thing I have probably done as far as that is to smoke fifty to sixty Civil Service untipped cigarettes a day when I was out on the road and used to have brown fingers. That’s as far as I’ve ever gone, I’ve never smoked weed, pot, anything like it. Even with my heavy involvement with Carnaby Street, and there were some lunatics, but for some reason – and I’m not gonna say that it was a holier than thou, but it avoided me, I didn’t avoid it, it avoided me. I find it very sad. I find it very, very sad. I think the recent victimisation of Kate Moss is a bit unfortunate, although I don’t point a finger at the companies that fired her. They hired someone who had a clean image and she no longer had that image. So what they were firing, they were firing her was not, the reason they were firing her – let’s get this right – the reason they were firing her was not because she’d taken drugs, but because she’d lost the image that they bought into. See, this is where I think the public went wrong. My summation of the situation may be very wrong, but that’s as I see it. If you’ve hired someone because they have a particular image, they then turn out publicly to be something very different, you terminate the relationship not because of what they’ve done, but what is done to what you’ve hired them for. You no longer have what you’ve bought. So, the drug thing I find very, very sad. But you know, there is always that one – ‘cos nothing is a hundred per cent in this life – and there’s one per cent – I don’t know if you saw it in the paper recently about a Colombian farmer, or someone in Afghanistan you know, who was earning a living growing the stuff and is now virtually starving, he and his family, ‘cos they’re no longer allowed to grow the stuff. Now, that does pose a smidgeon of a problem, ‘cos one could say, if it had never been developed in the first place, we don’t know what would have happened Anna, but as it is now, you know. So there is just that little bit, but having said that, you know, no-one in their right mind in my opinion can Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 228 C1046/011 Track 22 condone drugs, in any way, shape or form. And I, on certain issues I go black or white and I think on drugs you either do or you don’t. I think once you take the first, it’s on the step to the second. And I’m in no way pontificating about this, ‘cos anyone can do what they want. I think anyone selling drugs, getting school kids hooked on drugs, I’m a hanger. No problem with it, providing the evidence is hard. If it’s circumstantial, when there’s an element of doubt, then I think hanging is out, but I think if it is hard and fast with clear facts, then quite frankly I think these people, you know, anyone doing murder, what have you, like that, unless, you know, there’s always circumstances, but anything that’s been done with criminal intent, I think it’s hanging.

And hanging rather than…

Well shoot ‘em, I don’t mind.

But, capital punishment?

Oh yes, very much so. Very, very much so. You know, okay I happen to be a hawk on this issue and again, not relevant either to what we’re talking about in general terms or to the way I’ve led my life. I try to be very – not that anyone gives a damn whether I’m tolerant or not, but I try and have a reasonably tolerant outlook on most things and would not seek to impose my will on anyone, I hope. But having said that, I think that I wouldn’t say to someone – well I might say to somebody, do you really need to push drugs for a living or what have you - but what I do say is if, as a result of that, something terrible happens then, I think you know… You know, some of these nonsense, you know – there’s that lovely little cartoon in The Times, lovely little pocket cartoon early last week I think it was, where the judge is saying, sentencing a prisoner, ‘You will be taken here to a place from which you will be released’, you know. Now I’m sorry, I believe in deterrent factor. It might be more convenient and the more protected you are, the easier it becomes to be very tolerant of these people because you’re never gonna be affected, but it’s remarkable how the most tolerant of people become intolerant once it gets close to home. That’s the reality of life. So this is why I say to people, don’t give me all that funny about how liberal with a small ‘l’ you are in terms of crime and what have you, wait till it happens to you, or yours. You know, someone who should know better was saying, you know, really Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 229 C1046/011 Track 22 we should spare a thought for the bombers of 7/7 and my view said, well you know, you lose an arm and a leg or your child have their face blown away and you tell me if you feel the same way. Right, that’s hawkish, call it what you like, but that’s where I’m at. You know, we all do silly things in our lives. I don’t think there’s any of us that haven’t, but I think when it impacts on someone, you know, I feel stronger about a mugging than I do about a million pound fraud. I feel much stronger about that.

Have you ever been a victim of any kind of crime or…?

Yeah, I had a wallet snatched some years ago just as I was paying for a season ticket at East Finchley tube. The individuals concerned weren’t caught. I’m just more careful now, but had they been caught, I would have hoped that they’d have got about five years. It was just a snatch so I wasn’t physically abused and thank God, neither Patricia nor Jeremy have ever been – well Jeremy’s a big lad anyway, so… Didn’t really, so funny, I’ve just got to get my passport renewed and there’s a picture in my passport about ten years ago and Patricia said, from a distance it could be Jeremy, it’s virtually the same picture. ‘Cos I was dressed in casual clothing for it, ‘cos he’s got my hairstyle, but at a much earlier age. But you know, but Jeremy’s a much bigger lad than I. But you know, thank God they’ve never been physically attacked, but I do believe that once you start doing that then boomp.

Back to the fashion business though. Things that affect the fashion business perhaps more than others – I’m thinking of drugs in relation to models and so on – what have you seen, have you seen things that disturbed you or…

Never. I have to say never. If you regard six to eight beautiful six foot girls just wearing their pants and some without them, sitting there drinking Champagne and smoking as horrendous, I can live with that. But that’s about the worst or the best I’ve seen. The only other thing I’ve other seen, I think that did disturb me, now I come to think of it was a girl, when we had the shop in Piccadilly, I Was Lord Kitchener’s Valet and a girl had been in one of the fitting rooms a long, quite a while and I got one of the security boys and we pulled the curtain apart and she was injecting herself. I found that a bit disturbing, I must admit. I did find that a bit disturbing, actually seeing it happen. She was a very pretty girl as well. Not that that should make any difference, but you know, that shouldn’t make any Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 230 C1046/011 Track 22 difference whatsoever, but somehow it did. And I thought to myself, what the hell are you doing to yourself, you’ve been blessed with looks. What the hell are you doing? But I’m not doing a holier than thou bit, as I say, because I have very hawkish views, but only on certain things. There’s that story about the young man who was going for an interview and he expounded on his, he was asked about his ethical policies and he expounded at length on those. And he said, then said to the board of directors, ‘And those gentlemen, are my principles, but if they’re not suitable I do have others’. [laughs]

[laughs] Good line.

How are we doing for time? Well I think we’re virtually there aren’t we?

I think on this, yeah. Good place to stop for today, yeah.

So we’ve now, I have to remind myself, I have to start writing down where we’ve reached.

I would like to ask more about the Carnaby Street era next time.

Oh yes, happily, happily talk about that. Interesting, there’s a picture in last week’s Draper’s Record, they put a plaque up to John Stephens in Carnaby Street and there’s a picture of Tom Salter and John Paul together. Tom Salter had Gear and Kids in Gear and I think Tom, I think was it Charlie had a business relationship with Tom Salter.

Tommy Roberts?

Tommy Roberts, yeah. Always get the two mixed up.

Charlie who?

Pardon?

Charlie who?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 231 C1046/011 Track 22

Who was Tommy’s partner.

Charlie – what’s his other name?

Can’t think of it for the minute.

Nor could he. [laughs].

Yeah, but for different reasons. For different reasons. But I know one went with John Paul and the other, who had Mr Freedom, and the other went with Tom Salter with Gear. And as I say, pure coincidence, looking at last week’s Draper’s Record, there was a picture of two or three people, four actually, for the unveiling and together were John Paul and Tom Salter. What goes around comes around Anna, it’s quite extraordinary.

Thank you.

Not at all.

[End of Track 22]

[End of Section 1] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 1 C1046/011 Track 22

NATIONAL LIFE STORY COLLECTION

An Oral History of British Fashion in partnership with the London College of Fashion

Manny Silverman

2 of 2

interviewed by Anna Dyke Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 2 C1046/011 Track 23

[SECTION 2]

[Track 23]

Okay, so fifteenth of November 2005. Right, last time you told me a little about your involvement with Carnaby Street.

Uh huh.

Where you met your wife?

Well I had actually met her before then. I’d actually met her, probably I think – I don’t know whether I mentioned – but I would have thought I would have met Patricia in the early sixties and Carnaby Street was mid sixties. So close enough, but I certainly had met her and I’d been going out with her before the Carnaby Street involvement.

And you talked about a social life revolving around that area?

Well it wasn’t so much a social life revolving round that area, but it was just a very, very exciting time; you had all these various characters. One or two I think you may have met or have heard about from other sources, but you know, you had the John Stephens, the Tom Salters, the John Pauls. All of these were characters who saw the opportunity and sort of all helped and contributed to make it happen. And yes, some of them we became rather more friendly with than others. For instance I eventually got involved with John Paul and in I Was Lord Kitchener’s Valet and that developed into more of a business stroke social relationship. We became friends where we were at John Paul’s wedding. So there were certain social relationships. John Stephens has his own well documented record of his friendships, but the amusing and interesting thing about John was that he had for a number of, some years previously worked at Moss Brothers, in the military department. I’ll leave you to make of that what you will. But Moss Bros provided some temporary employment for a number of people. For instance, Michael Caine spent some time in the late fifties, early sixties cleaning ski boots in the ski hire department as part- time employment. So you know, you had all these, it’s funny how these things come Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 3 C1046/011 Track 23 together, but there were some very, very interesting characters around at the time and yeah, we would go out afterwards, have a few beers or what have you. There’s always one lovely story; I met up one mid morning for a cup of coffee and a natter, and there used to be a little café restaurant more or less at the Liberty’s end of Carnaby Street called the Bonbonniere. We went in one morning and they’d rearranged everything, it was quite extraordinary, and I resent change of any kind. Anyway, I sat myself down, even moving tables and chairs in a restaurant and I started to stir my coffee and the spoon started to disintegrate and it was the programme – not You’ve Been Fooled, but you know, the forerunner programme, it came over from America – which caught you out with things. That was one of the funniest things I can remember from about that time. And I got so cross, I was gonna report it to the Westminster Health Authority, and I was so bumptious about the whole thing, it was just so funny, but it was a place where funny things sort of happened. It was such a happening.

Was that on television?

I think it was, yes. I never saw it. A combination of probably a) I didn’t want to and b) probably missed it anyway. But I think it must have been because some people I know mentioned it to me afterwards. But you know, I don’t, I know when I’ve made a fool of myself, I don’t need a confirmation of it on screen.

[laughs] So, and your reaction to it?

Oh, I fell about laughing when it all came out, more laughing at myself. But talking about television, a few years earlier we used to go at a little holiday camp, a few of us guys, about seven or eight of us used to go down this holiday camp, in a place called Hopton-on- Sea, which is between Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth, called Potters. Still owned by the family and has been turned into a multi, multi million, highly successful leisure activity centre where everybody else it would seem, in the industry has failed, but Brian Potter, who’s a third I think generation, his sons in it now have turned it into something super. I remember once going back and – well they were interviewing at the holiday camp back in the late fifties for a quiz which was going out from Norwich, from Anglia – we’re talking here now about late fifties. It was a programme called It’s Only Money, a quiz show, and I Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 4 C1046/011 Track 23 got on to it with another chap and Tommy Trinder – a name you may or may not know – was compering it and after we’d won a hundred pounds, which in those days was a lot of money, Tommy Trinder said to me, you know, he talked about the guy that was with me, ‘He didn’t say a word’. I said, ‘No, but he didn’t half keep quiet well didn’t he?’ [laughs] But you know, I’ve always found myself doing these sort of things. Now why, I don’t know. Maybe it’s because I’m so loveable, as you’ve now had a chance to find out. But coming back to the Carnaby Street, yeah, there was an element of social relationships but they weren’t really you know, it was just mates as mates, good acquaintances rather than long-established friendships that went on year in, year out. Yeah, whenever I used to see John Paul, Tom Salter, John Stephens and some of the other guys there, the names that immediately spring to mind, always, you know, if they were having a drink, we’d always have a drink together. But as I say, sort of apart from John Paul, no real close and long- standing relationships.

So John Stephens and Tom Salter, what sort of personalities were they?

John was, homosexual guy and very much had a crowd of homosexual guys round him, people like Frank Merkel and others, had his own set, but no, he wasn’t hung-up about it and neither were we. Patricia and I had dinner with him quite a few times, you know, he was just a nice guy and that was it. Tom Salter was an amazing character, lovely sense of humour. You know, it was sort of typical of Tom Salter was you know, that we’d stand around having a drink in The Shakespeare, which in the evening, which was the pub that we went to, I think it was The Shakespeare at the top end of Carnaby Street and everybody would be talking about and dreaming about the day that they would go public. And I always remember Tom saying, I can’t understand why the hell you want to go public, I’ve got one bloody partner and I can’t get on with him and you all want a million shareholders, you know. [laughs] But it was, I suppose to use words that I don’t understand, but it was a very eclectic mix of people. I can’t think of the name for the moment, but there was one guy who’d had two sets of shops, had become probably one of the most successful property developers in London.

[brief interruption]

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You know, one of the most proper – oh, what’s his name? Very, very nice guy and I will remember it probably before our session’s finished, but he’s building this huge shard, glass tower at London Bridge I think it is, and he had a chain of shops in Carnaby Street. Never mixed very much with the rest of us, very much did his own thing, but went on to do great things. And as I say, it was this – then you had… it’s funny, as we talk, so you get more and more memory recall into these things. There were the Gold brothers and after John had opened John Stephens and Warren Gold opened Lord John, which was of course the first of the law suits that came out in Carnaby Street. John Stephens sued Warren Gold for calling his business Lord John. Can’t even remember the outcome, other than I think the lawyers made quite a bit of money out of it.

And what was for example John Stephens’ background. You said he had worked for Moss Bros.

Moss Bros, I think he’d – one never really knew too much about it. I think if you care to research it in this vast library which I know you have here, there was quite a good obituary on him in The Times. He came down from Scotland and that’s about all I know. Very dapper, very elegant man and a very, very nice guy. Very unhappy we sometimes found. You know, on the occasions that Patricia and I had had dinner with him, which weren’t all that many, but he could get very maudlin, when he got into his cups, which was very sad. And despite his very wide circle of what I would call friends rather more than good acquaintances, although you know, I don’t know how many of them were hangers on or not, one always got the feeling with John that despite his, long-term I think, relationship with Frank Merkel, I don’t know but I always got the feeling that deep down inside there was an element of loneliness, which was a little bit sad. You know, the guy had everything. The guy had everything and yet – but I suppose like so many of us, you know, so many in life you know, and having everything is not necessarily about material things. And you know, contentment comes in many forms, many shapes and you know, material wealth in itself, and at that time John had unbelievable material wealth, didn’t necessarily fulfil what I felt was some sort of deep down need, which maybe he himself couldn’t even have defined. But now I’m doing a him on me, what you’ve been doing on me. I’m doing a me on him what you’ve been doing – well you know what I mean by that anyway.

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[laughs] Well, could you give me your perspective of how the Carnaby Street phenomenon evolved, how that came about?

I think it was freakish, you could not replicate it for a million pounds. It was just one of those freaks of time. It was the mid sixties, times were a-changing in the words of the song, the times they are a-changing, and that was it. And suddenly – why it should have been Carnaby Street and not the street one side or the other, but Vince had opened round the corner, Vince was selling, Vince was initially focussing on the gay market I think and was selling – and that was round the corner, round by Marshall Street somewhere where the swimming baths are – and then I think it was John Stephens – it’s very hard to know whoever, who really, you know, can claim that started, but my feeling it was John Stephens opened there and it just happened. Now, you can’t explain, I think people have tried to rationalise it, people have written about it. It just happened. You know, it’s like John Paul with the uniforms. You know, who would have thought uniforms of that nature – John Paul suddenly had an idea and started to sell down in Portobello Market uniforms. Next thing he knew he was heading towards Carnaby Street with them. Okay, the first one was in Foubert’s Place just by the side, but it all became part of the Carnaby Street complex if you like. That’s complex as in shopping complex, not in complexity of the mind, although there’s an element of that no doubt as well. And it just became the place to head for. It was just a phenomenon. The nearest thing to it was John Ingram who was very much responsible for creating Kings Road. And John Ingram’s family business had some dress shops in Kings Road and John, who was a good friend and we’ll talk a little bit about him because he does also appear later for a couple or three years in the story, but he – and I didn’t know him at that time – but he was a very, very clever man. Very, very clever, the only man – unfortunately lost both of them – the only man I know in our industry that created two public companies and unfortunately lost them both. But he was the first man that I know that created niche retailing. But he started the Kings Road shops on a more upmarket basis and that caught on. But nevertheless, Kings Road was very much a commercially motivated operation based on certain aspects of Carnaby Street, whereas Carnaby Street spawned out of itself. Now I hope that makes some sort of sense and as I say, now I know about all the vast resources you have here for research, you can cross-reference some of that and check me out.

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Was London swinging for you though, in the sixties?

It, reasonably so, yup. Reasonably so. I’ve never been into the drugs scene. I think Three Castle cigarettes, which are about one of the strong cigarettes, were about as far as I went. No great hang-ups why I did or why I didn’t, just wasn’t something that – I suppose it was never consciously pushed my way, I was never involved with people who were into that scene and I suppose I have a cautious streak in my nature and you know, never went looking for it. You know, I feel it’s very sad, but you know, one doesn’t want to moralistic about these things, but I don’t have very much time for self-inflicted things of this nature. For instance, to digress for a moment, I had a telephone call from one of the cancer charities that I support in a small way, try and support as much as one can, I think one should try and give x amount of one’s income to a number of charities and they are to a very diverse number of charities. And I had a call from this charity saying, you know, we’re doing a special thing for obesity. And I said, well hang on, what are you asking me for, you know. Obesity’s self-inflicted. I said, you know, doesn’t anyone take responsibility for themselves any more? She said, well you know. I said, you know, the parents. Oh well, we’ve got to educate the parents. I said, and who’s gonna educate the educators of the parents, what are we talking about? You know, you’re destroying the social fabric of society. Nobody is responsible for anything, we live in a society now – and I get on my hobbyhorse – where we have a situation where a youngster hurts her foot, a girl, and before the – in a youth club – and before the youth club worker can put a plaster on her toe, she has to ring the parent and yet we’re saying the same girl can have an abortion without her parents knowing. The world’s gone irrational because of these nonsenses. You know, talk to me about Parkinson’s Disease, talk to me about Alzheimer’s, things of that nature which are not self-inflicted, talk to me about the ringing in my ears of tinnitus. You know, they’re not, you know, they’re not self-inflicted. You know, do something about it yourself. Sorry, that’s going way off, you’re making me let off steam, but I do feel strongly about these things, you know. So yeah, to come back to the point, yeah London was swinging, but I suppose I’ve never been that much of a swinger, a raver or what have you. Always had a damn good time and life’s always been good and I’ve had always plenty of opportunity, but not to go stark raving mad.

And did you come across any showbiz types during that period? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 8 C1046/011 Track 23

Trying to think. Not that come consciously to mind. Not really, no. I can’t think of any. Funnily enough no, I can’t, as I say, nothing really springs to mind. One saw them around I suppose, but because, you know, everyone but everyone was there or thereabouts. But you know, no-one really that comes to mind. I think you may have caught me just about the right time of my life I think. Another year, I doubt if I’ll remember very much at all. [laughs] But no, no-one or nothing that really goes zoomp, bang.

And as regards the menswear market, what effect do you think Carnaby Street had?

Think it had an enormous effect, but it had an effect that it was affected by. But there were a whole series of things that happened. I think one of the forerunners in the High Street of modern menswear as we know it – in those days if you look at the bulk of the market, let’s look at the mass market. The mass market for menswear in those days was largely made- to-measure. You had the Burton Group, you had Weaver to Wearer, you had John Collier, you had Alexandra and all these companies, they did ready-to-wear, but they primarily did made-to-measure and you had these huge factories in Leeds. I mean to say, Burton employed seven thousand people making suits in its heyday. And you had this sort of cult, you went and had your suit made, your suit made to measure. Burton, Sir what’s-his-name Burton, again I can’t remember, but he was very clever because he bought two-storey buildings and downstairs he had the Burton tailoring and like so many others, and I think there were still a few of them around had an upstairs, where he had a snooker hall. Snooker was a popular pastime in those days before its second coming. And that’s how it went. And then men’s clothing became more fashionable. Younger men wanted instant clothing and you then had groups – Village Gate was very influential. Village Gate was a very, very stylish ready-to-wear operation and that went High Street and suburbs. Whether it went provincial – it’s a very interesting thing, I think it applies to womenswear but not quite so much as it does to menswear. There are certain concepts which are purely metropolitan, which will never come out of the centre of London, there are those that will travel what I will call the suburbs, within the orbit say of the M25 and then there are those which will become provincial and some of the metropolitans will then become in these days acceptable say in the major, five or six of the major capital cities like Edinburgh, Leeds, Manchester and places like that, maybe Birmingham. But certain concepts travel. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 9 C1046/011 Track 23

And you had a number of groups then got on to it. There was the Smart Weston Group. There was – and they were all influenced by this modern fashion – but the precursor to all of this was Cecil Gee’s and Cecil Gee’s were very much the late forties and early fifties, but they were very much the American look. So you’ve got the first influence of the not so conventional English style, I suppose shortly after the war, from Cecil Gee’s and there was one other company, whose name eludes me at the moment, and they were in Charing Cross Road. Cecil Gee had started in the East End of London but had then moved into Charing Cross Road, and they had this American side. Always remember – just as a little aside – that having a meeting shortly after I’d finished with Moss Bros and I was talking to a number of people, including Terence Conran and Terence Conran at that time was really top of the pile, he was Chairman of Hepworth’s which became Next, he had the Storehouse Group, Richard Shops which were doing… We were at a board meeting and suddenly one of us mentioned, I don’t know, I can’t remember if it was him or me, probably me because I was the one who was harking back, to spear point collars and suddenly Terence said to me, ‘You used to wear spear points didn’t you?’ And I said, ‘Yeah’. He said, ‘Where did you get yours from?’ I said, ‘I used to get mine from Gee’s, get them in cream’. He said, ‘They were terrific weren’t they?’ And people were sitting at this board meeting and he said, ‘People used to ask me on the station, ‘where d’you get that terrific shirt?’, you know, and we went into this diatribe. So they were the very early, but they never really had a major influence. They were very much centre of London. But really fashionable menswear, and I say fashionable as opposed to stylish where there was need to change on a more regular basis. You didn’t change your clothes when they wore out, you changed them when the fashion of the day moved out. So you had Village Gate which started by showing how it could be done very stylishly in places like Regent Street. You had the Smart Weston group which was very much in the suburbs. Every suburb of London, north and south, had a Smart Weston. Although originally there was Smart’s, then there was Weston’s, then they combined to become surprisingly, Smart Weston, but there you are, someone was paid no doubt thousands of pounds in those days to create that. And they all spawned others, influence again by Carnaby Street. But Carnaby Street was perceived internationally to be the frontrunner. It really, you know, if it happened in Carnaby Street it would happen elsewhere. Sidney Brent of Brent and Collins also had some very nice shops called Take Six and they were, basically he had one in Carnaby Street, but he had them in Romford, Ilford, you know in Essex before Essex became Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 10 C1046/011 Track 23 famous for so much else. And they all brought their own, they all sort of as it were, carried the message and gradually this infiltrated, you then had a whole generation of seventeen and eighteen year olds who no longer wanted to go into the Burton, the Hepworth as it was before it became Next, before the John Collier, the Weaver to Wearers. And so gradually you had this whole evolutionary process take place. And the other thing, you then had the growth of ready-to-wear manufacture in menswear. At that time you had Harry Rael Brook who introduced the non-iron shirt, you know, non-iron poplin or whatever it was and all those wonderful television adverts. And gradually all of these things all collectively had an influence. But I think the key driver, the focal point, although it doesn’t necessarily have that much influence, but the focal point, the driver, was the Carnaby Street influence. And then gradually we lost the whole of that made-to- measure culture. Well for two reasons I say, because you had very stylish or fashionable and sort of moderately priced ready-to-wear; you could go in, you could try it on, you could see what you looked like, you’d have any alterations done and you walked out with it and you know, that was it. So that took over and the rest of it then faded. And of course alongside that, you had this change, people, you know we were coming into a different era, people didn’t want to work in factories and as I say, the world changed completely and it was all part of a total evolutionary process and I think the impact as one sort of thinks of it in more global terms or broader terms, the influence and the impact of the sixties was much broader than you know, unless those sociologists, social scientists who go into these things, you know, it was much broader than we know. And then you had the Teddy boys and all the other mods and the whole thing changed. And it was, whereas everything up to that point had been evolutionary and at a fairly, certainly in menswear to come back to the base question you asked, certainly in menswear, evolution was very, very slow. You suddenly came into a generation that wanted revolution. And go back to the, you know, the pop song, He’s a Dedicated Follower of Fashion. Sums it up.

Okay. You mentioned, along the way, that…

[End of Track 23]

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[Track 24]

…your brother-in-law had started a shop called Lady Jane. So that was your sister’s husband?

Husband, yeah. Unfortunately still is. [laughs]

And, can you tell me about his background, how he came into the fashion business?

He’s always been very entrepreneurial, very entrepreneurial. Has had bad times and good times, but has always been able to spot an opportunity. I think grew up probably in slightly better circumstances, well certainly better circumstances than my sister and myself and I think had a reasonable education, I think a lot of his wartime years were spent down in Bournemouth with family and I think was always interested in retailing and selling. And interestingly enough had a shop, or couple of shops in Camden Town and the Gold brothers who I mentioned earlier, and Warren Gold was one of them, they had a shop next door to him in Camden Town and I think it was, if my memory serves me right, it was David Gold that said to him, you know, we’ve opened this shop in Carnaby Street and it’s taking a bomb of money. And Henry went there and foolishly took a partner in with him who had some money, but it was his concept and I know that for a fact and this is all about the truth so we won’t make up, you know, any fibbets about it, and he bought what was an old dairy. And even though he had a partner who put money into it, hocked himself up to there and opened Lady Jane. Now he hit some difficult times in the fashion business and suddenly saw a site that nobody else wanted, near the British Museum, and eventually after a lot of negotiating, he stuck at his – very, very tenacious – and he got this site and now has a very, very successful little restaurant business bang near the British Museum. It was there for anyone else to see.

What’s it called?

Ugh, I’d rather not mention it. We’ll say no more than that. It’s fast food that I don’t particularly care for.

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And have you had any business dealings with one another over the years?

No. No I think we both realise that this is – you know, when help has been needed he’s helped me out, I’ve helped him out, but in terms of a business relationship, kiss of death. Because there is no such thing as an equal partnership. There is no such thing, certainly not in business, certainly not in business. I can’t recall anything I’ve known – there are a lot of partnerships which on the face of it look – I say, take the Barclay brothers, one of the most successful partnerships, but after all they are twin brothers and you never know presumably, which one you’re dealing with anyway. But no, we’ve just, you know, we’ve looked at a couple of things over the years but I think we’ve both avoided it and I think both Lilian and Patricia are happier that we haven’t sort of done anything together.

And aside – have you ever met either of the Barclay brothers?

No, I’ve only seen them in the same restaurant in Monte Carlo, that’s the nearest I’ve got to them. Can’t even say I rubbed shoulders, because they were two tables away.

What were you doing there?

Having lunch with friends [laughing] as one does. You know, as one does in the Hotel de Paris [laughing] in Monte Carlo after all, you know.

Anything else?

Not really. We had a very dear friend, was probably a better friend of my wife’s than myself, someone who’d worked with us at Hartnell and we used to go and stay with her on a fairly regular basis and Patricia used to stay, used to go and have a couple of weeks a year with her, you know, just a couple of girlie weeks, you know, when it’s nice and quiet and I always used to argue with – not Patricia – but with Pamela. And Pamela also had an apartment in Monte Carlo so we would go into Monte Carlo once or twice, maybe stay over for a couple of days. And you know, while you’re in Monte Carlo you have to eat. But what I love about Monte Carlo is you know, you can go into the Hotel de Paris and have a sensational meal. Equally you can go into the Café de Paris which is just the other Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 13 C1046/011 Track 24 side of the square, sit out in the open, have a beautiful burger and a glass of red wine and a bottle of tomato ketchup and live like a lord. But never had any business dealings or anything like that in – no, I’ve got nothing tucked away there, I regret to say.

Okay. Back to the subject of family in a way. You mentioned last time that when you, hm, when you joined the Moss Bros board, was that when you bought your house?

A little bit, yeah round about that time, it would be round about that time, yeah. Maybe a little after. I went on the Moss Bros board December sixty-seven, think I would probably have bought our first house in sixty-eight, mid to late sixty-eight. Again, rather fortuitous. Henry, my brother-in-law, was doing very well with Carnaby Street at the time, he was moving to a larger house, he was in a position to move to a larger, much nicer house and said, did we want to buy his house, which was a house we knew, we liked and both Patricia and I had visited it on a social basis, spent time with the family there, so we bought it from them. And then several years later when things got a bit, when Henry went through one of his tough periods, we moved to something larger and sold Howard Walk back to him. And it’s funny how these things have a way of working out.

And what was that first home like?

What the first…

The first one, that you bought from…

It was a small, semi-detached house but very nice, in Hampstead Garden Suburb. Within nice walking distance to the station. It was just a very – in a nice little crescent, so we didn’t have any through traffic, and just very, very quiet, very pleasant and nice little house which we knew and we were very happy in.

Previous to that, had you – we talked about you living in Hackney.

I’d lived in Hackney with my mother until that time. As I say, never was one for moving out and – I don’t know what it is, you know, we all have different traits in us – not a streak Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 14 C1046/011 Track 24 of puritanism, but you know, never found it necessary to want to move out and do my own thing or what have you. You know, always been a bit of a slow coach that way, always needed to be driven.

So, since that first home that you bought, have you remained in the same general area?

Very, when you come and do your recording, at least one of them at home, it’ll be quicker to walk you round there than it is to drive you round there, almost, if we have to turn the car round. Literally round the corner. It’s as much an upheaval moving round the corner as it is moving two hundred miles away, except you know your way to the station a little bit better. But funnily enough, the house that we moved to, that would have been in eighty-three, eighty-four, a house that I’d always liked, whenever I walked past it, going to the station, I’ve always liked it and what we’ve now done is restored what it – one of the things that it used to do, you won’t see them because we’re in the winter now, but what first caught my eye about it, it always used to have a lovely display of geraniums, scarlet geraniums in the front, and we’ve replicated that. Most of the houses in the suburbs, certainly in Brim Hill, have hedges and we’re one of the few houses that have borders rather than hedges fronting on to the street. And it’s surprising, when I’ve been in the evening watering the garden, the number of people that have stopped and said thank you, just as I used to enjoy it. And no big deal for me, it’s just what – and I said to them, they used to give me so much pleasure when I walked past, which is the reason I bought the bloody house. And it gives me great pleasure now. They’re just about dying, I think the frost over the last couple of nights. Well I don’t it was frosty last night, but I know frost the night before certainly killed off quite a bit.

And can you describe this house?

Where I’m living now? Again, it’s another semi-detached, but slightly larger and probably if one looks at one’s home as the biggest investment that one makes, you know, for folks like myself who’ve only ever been a salaried employee and not made a lot of money, had the opportunity several times to make money but have made some and lost it, missed some very good opportunities to make a lot of money, but you know, you can’t go looking back at that. Certainly, and I have to say that Patricia was the driver to push me into making Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 15 C1046/011 Track 24 this change and I think it was one of the best investments we made. It’s worth – let’s put it this way – it’s worth considerably more today than the house that we left just round the corner. Not fortunes, but it’s still worth – we’re very fortunate. Where we are in the Suburb, it’s a very, very desirable area for young couples with families and also for work and because you’re a six or seven minute walk from the tube station and you’ve got a choice of some very, very good schools in the area and increasingly we see, every house that comes on the market is now taken by a young family with children. Which gives it also added value. And that’s a value that you know, I hope will be retained. In the days when the house market was absolutely rocketing, there was just a steady rise in our area, but when things declined we just continued to rise steadily. But it’s only perceived, it’s only perceived wealth in your own mind. You know, you’re only gonna realise it when you sell it or when the next generation come to sell it or you know, when you decide you really want to downsize. It’s not that large that we need to downsize as such, you know, we’re not roaming around in acres of space. It’s a nice semi-detached house. Comfortable and you know, if I’m allowed to put the central heating on it has been known to be warm. [laughs]

We talked about the home you lived in as a child and the sort of, the objects that you might have had in the home and how it might have looked. The house you have now, who’s in charge of the décor and can you describe it in some way to me?

Let’s put it this way, you’ll have a chance to see it for yourself. Now I…

For the tape. [laughs]

I make the major decisions in life, I decide what we’re gonna do about world poverty, about what’s gonna happen in Afghanistan and in Iraq, I decide on what the educational policy will be. Patricia decides on what we will eat, how the house will be decorated and that’s how we divide, you know. No, I tend to leave these things very much to Patricia. She’s obviously very much better at it than I am. I know what I can do well, I know what I’m bloody useless at. And you know, she’s a damn good homemaker and I don’t interfere. Equally, she will out of courtesy and for the sake of peace, never take – or not that I’m aware of – too many unilateral decisions. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 16 C1046/011 Track 24

But what kind of objects might one see, if you went there?

Oh I don’t know, not really. What we do like to have in the house, we do like fresh flowers. And fresh flowers these days, it is much cheaper to enjoy fresh flowers today than it ever was before. I say you can go into Marks and Spencer or Sainsbury’s on a Thursday afternoon before the weekend cull is made and you can have beautiful flowers in the house for almost a week for about fifteen pounds, fifteen, twenty pounds. Okay, not everybody wants to spend their money that way. Not everybody wants to spend their money on private medical health, we’ll spend our own money our own way. And I know people who say to me that you know, one is mad spending the amount of money that I spend insuring us, private medical health. You know, I could travel all – I won’t say travel the world, but I could have two or three damn good holidays – I’d sooner have that peace of mind. But there’s always something staid about my outlook. Probably comes from my up… as I say, I suppose it is in some measure a result of a somewhat deprived childhood. I don’t know whether the cautious nature then has come about of that or whether that cautious nature was inherent anyway, I don’t really know. But I’ve always preferred to feel there is a degree of stability in life. So that’s the house and me.

You’ve mentioned along the way your son Jeremy.

Mm hm.

When was he born?

He was born the ninth of June 1971, in Barnet General Hospital.

Only one child?

Only the one child.

Why?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 17 C1046/011 Track 24

That’s the way it worked out. We never tried for Jeremy but we got him, we’ve never actually tried for another. And I felt that I could give Jeremy everything that I wanted, it would have been slightly more difficult if we’d have had more than one. Now whether that’s been, in retrospect, a bad thing or a good thing, I don’t know but what’s done is done.

And, can you tell me a little about how you brought him up and for example what schools you sent him to?

He first of all went to, all the children in the Suburb, there’s a very good nursery school attached to the local Orthodox synagogue, called Kerem House, which had among its children Japanese children of diplomats – all the kids went there. And he started there, which was in Kerem House. From Kerem House he went to Brooklands Rise, to a very, very good state infant school just at the end – Brim Hill then runs into Hill Rise and then you’ve got Brooklands, and you still see the kids going to Brooklands as well, lovely. Then went to a couple of prep schools and then went to Highgate, ostensibly as a weekly boarder, but even doing the Bishop’s run, which was the evening run, we used to take him back Monday morning, Monday evening I used to do the Bishop’s run, which was the Bishops Avenue run from the school and he’d stop off at home and then go back. So it was boarding, it was a bit of a culture shock for him. I remember him coming home and saying that the room in which eight of them slept had ‘lilo’ on the floor. And we had to point out that no, it was lino, linoleum. He thought it was lilo, not lino. He’d had a fairly, he’d had a reasonably cosseted childhood, didn’t see as much of me as in retrospect I wish he had have done. Because in those days my career was just building and developing and you know, that’s the way it worked out. In retrospect I don’t know whether it was right or wrong. In commercial terms maybe it was the right thing in terms of promotion, whether the job itself was worth it, again in retrospect, maybe not. But okay, you don’t look back, but you do, this doesn’t stop you from saying well okay, although I don’t look back, was it right or was it wrong? Certainly the emphasis should have been more in the other direction in my opinion. But that again like so much else in life is with the benefit of hindsight.

So why did you choose to give him the education that you did? Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 18 C1046/011 Track 24

Because I felt I’d like him to have the best education that I could afford and that he could absorb. Because I felt that that’s what I wanted. And again, I was prepared to make sacrifices to pay for, certainly when he went to Highgate, out of taxed income it was a considerable amount of money, but again, I was prepared to do that rather than spend that money on ourselves.

And can you tell me a little bit about his career?

[laughing] I wish there was a career to talk about. Jeremy’s not a sticker at things, he’s had some very good ideas which he started. He then went to Huddersfield, which became during his time a university rather than a polytechnic, I don’t think it has any direct bearing on his ability. He got a not very good pass, but he got a BA Hons in business studies. Has never really settled down to anything. Is very entrepreneurial in concept, but doesn’t follow through. And that’s a very, very honest statement and I would rather not too much of this went into anything that we did, but again, we’re talking honestly. As I say, he’s had some very good ideas. He started a business producing business plans for small businesses, which was you know, and was growing nicely and then he decided no, he didn’t want to do that any more. And then he’s done a couple of other things which he’s started and then dropped off. He now trades quite actively on E-bay, but we don’t know what will come next. Let me put it this way, let’s close on Jeremy, who I hope you’ll meet – I’ll make sure you meet Jeremy on – I’m not looking to him to keep me in my old age. But having said that, I love him dearly, we’re reasonably close. We started – one of the reasons I have or still have football tickets, although I don’t use them now was, one of the things I started to do was take him to football Saturday afternoons and I think if nothing else over the first two months his vocabulary broadened extensively. [laughs] I always remember the first time when he’d looked at some – I forget who it was he looked at and said to them, ‘You tosser’. [laughs]

Okay, right. Back to your ascent.

Ever onwards and upwards.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 19 C1046/011 Track 24

And so you joined the board in 1967.

Yep, as Production Director.

Which was?

Which was my background really, as a tailor and having been through the mill and understanding clothing. I think that was for about a year and a half. After that I then took on merchandising and marketing. I can’t remember who was in charge of sales. And things went along nicely, but the business was still very much run by the Moss Bros culture and although there were those of us that were given responsibility, we were never given the authority to make changes that we thought were necessary for a business. Also included in my area of authority there was the factory and warehouse at Dalston. There is a Balls Pond Road and despite many aspects that The Goons gave it, there was also a factory and our major cleaning plant in Dorking. That was a cleaning plant for the hire and laundry for the hire service. And I took on responsibility for those and that went along quite nicely, but never really allowed to make the changes that many other retailers at a similar level were doing, people like Austin Reed’s, Hector Powe’s were all moving ahead of us. We still had factories and the Moss family insisted that we made the best clothes and if people didn’t want decent handmade clothes, then we’re sorry for them. Even though we were a public company. And inevitably the business got into trouble. Into big, big trouble. And in 1975 our bankers called us, got together and called us in and said, now either things change or things won’t be any more. Always remember Monty saying, ‘But does this mean the business doesn’t belong to us any more?’ All very, very sad, but that was the mindset. And a man called Harry Vanson, who I was very close to as a chum as well, whose funeral takes place this Thursday, became Managing Director and I became Deputy Managing Director. And as I say, at that time I took on marketing, Harry then brought in a man from UDS who’d previously worked for Moss Bros many years ago, a man called Bernard Thomas, who became Sales Director and we had a new Finance Director.

What’s UDS, sorry?

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 20 C1046/011 Track 24

United Drapery Stores, which was one of the major groups. They had Whiteleys and big stores of that nature, they had Alexandra, the tailors, very, very large group. And we had a different management structure and things started to improve a bit, but we still had this Moss influence which said, no, this is how we’ve always done it. Yes, we’ve brought in new management, we’re giving these chaps a chance to run the business, but they’ll run the business the way we want them to run it. We don’t want anything to change. And inevitably, by 1980, having achieved profits I think of about 360, 380,000 a couple of years prior to that, we ran into losses again and again we were told changes had to be made. Harry Vanson retired and I was asked if I would like to become Chief Executive and needless to say, I said yes please. I think it was a bit of a shock to two or three of the other non-family directors who thought they might have been in the running.

Such as?

Certainly Bernard Thomas who was the Sales Director, who was also close to Peter Moss and Fred Smith who was the Finance Director, and like all Finance Directors, had ideas above their commercial trading abilities, but that’s somehow inherent in ninety per cent of them. The remaining ten per cent can be fantastic. But as for the rest of them, they think they can trade, they can’t. But we come back to something else, we’ll come back to that later. So I took on Managing Directorship, and realised very early on that if the business was gonna go anywhere I had to break this stranglehold on the business. And Basil Moss was Chairman, Monty Moss was Deputy Chairman, Peter Moss was a Director and Stephen Lotinga whose mother had been a Moss was Personnel Director, or Staff Director. There was no such thing as human resources in those days, we had people. And there was a tradition that Harry Vanson would always go and have coffee with Basil Moss at ten o’clock every morning to discuss the business. And Basil said I’d like to continue that tradition. And very, very early on Basil Moss said to me on one of these coffee morning meetings, will you please find out for me by tomorrow how many staff have staff loans and how much is owed to us. And I said, that sitting next to you is a telephone and next to that telephone is a list of numbers on which is a Staff Manager, ring her and she will tell you. Don’t waste your time or my time asking me, because this business is in trouble and you’re wasting my time and even thinking that way is not gonna get it out of trouble. Within three months he had retired, Monty had been appointed Chairman and my future Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 21 C1046/011 Track 24 was sealed. From that point on it was not gonna be a question of if I was ever gonna be fired, but when. Because the rest of the family, I compounded that felony with Stephen Lotinga, who was the most personable of guys, he’d started our One Up department – at that time major stores like Moss Bros, Austin Reed’s and others had started their own trendy departments. Ours was called One Up, ‘cos it was on the first floor. Harrods was called…

[End of Track 24] Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 22 C1046/011 Track 25

[Track 25]

…Way In and we’d all got these trendy departments and Stephen Lotinga had started that and he’d become Personnel Director or Staff Director. Again, a large shareholder and he was the next one that I had to deal with. The fact that he was homosexual was no bother to me, he was a very good friend, but was having relationships with staff and coming in at eleven o’clock, twelve o’clock, midday which again, I didn’t think was very, very good. And, talked to him about it a few times and the next thing I knew was I had an invitation by his mother to come to dinner. And she said – and unfortunately, she was a lovely, lovely lady, we loved Audrey very dearly through a very unfortunate accident and it shouldn’t have happened to of all people in the world to her, she become a paraplegic as a result of a car accident and has since died – but she said to me as we came to coffee and afterwards, ‘Now Manny you have to remember that Stephen is a night person and you mustn’t worry too much about what time he comes in, because he’s a night person’. And I said, ‘Audrey, if he’s a night person, then let him get a job as a fucking nightwatchman because the business does not need someone like that’ and he went. So within a short period of time I’d alienated both sides of the Moss family, but I’d cleared the decks.

When you said that Basil Moss and then Stephen Lotinga left, did they choose to or…?

It was made pretty clear that I didn’t really want them around, their time had come.

So it was your decision?

It was my strong influence, my strong influence. And when you take over a position with this, intiially with this much, you’re at your strongest in the first two or three years and what you do in those first two or three years Anna, is you make as many, or implement as many of the unpopular decisions that need to be taken and you make all the necessary changes that you want to make and above all, you make sure that all the losses that are hidden away, you bring them out, because everyone expects you in your first year, maybe unfortunately in your second year, that you’re gonna make losses because you’re gonna be sure you’re gonna make profit in your first full, next year. So you have to do it. Having done that, didn’t have to replace Basil. Peter Moss took on staff and we just gradually put Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 23 C1046/011 Track 25 the group together. I appointed a merchandise executive to look after the buying. We put the team in place. I then dealt with the other sacred cows and they were our own production. Now we were operating in an environment where we needed clothes to sell but we had a factory, and although we were retailers, the tail wagged the dog and we, the factory didn’t make what we needed, the factory made what it needed to give a balanced production and we were making things in such a way that we’d moved on from there. It was now 1980 and production had moved so far forward and we were still virtually in the dark ages. And I had to do one of the most traumatic things that I’ve done in my life, because there were still one or two people working the Balls Pond Road factory that I had to fire. And that was done early one New Year, we brought a small unit over to Covent Garden where we cleared a floor, we closed it all down. You see, if you need at the beginning of the evening wear season a thousand dinner jackets, you don’t want them at the rate of a thousand a week because that suits the production so you’ve got to fund them at a rate of a thousand a week – you’ve got to fund them at the rate of twenty a week, you’ve got to hold them for a rate of twenty a week. From that moment of time I closed the factory I placed an order, or my people placed an order for say, a hypothetical thousand dinner jackets to be delivered on the first of August, they came in on the first of August, we hadn’t invested, didn’t have to invest a penny piece of capital. We had a cloth stock of over half a million, because cloth was money, Harry Moss used to say. It’s ridiculous. We were living in the dark ages. And suddenly, we got what we wanted when we wanted, we could source the market and be competitive. We just put the prices up to suit the factory, it was a classic example of the tail wagging the dog. But these were all unpalatable decisions and went against the grain of everything that the company stood for, but if we’d have carried on like that – we were investing hundreds of thousands of pounds of capital in an area of business which was totally unnecessary. We released all that capital. I then started to look at our laundry, our cleaning and pressing. Now, everything had to come back to Dorking to be cleaned, pressed and laundered and the rate we were paid, we weren’t big enough ‘cos we were only doing our own, although it was big, but it wasn’t big enough to compete. So what I did – and we didn’t get everything right, but I only tell you what went right. What I did with that in 1981, I said, no we’re gonna do the same – we were making trousers with hand tops… it was ridiculous. One of the things that we did when we closed Dorking – I’ll come back to that – our suits were expensive, couldn’t compete on the market and what I did is said okay, we’ll still make good quality, semi- Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 24 C1046/011 Track 25 handmade jackets, but we’ll have machine made trousers, give those out. A man’s not so much concerned about the trousers. So I looked at the Dorking property and I said, well rather than have everything come back here, the time it’s out of commission, it’s got to be sent from Bristol or Manchester to Dorking by van to be cleaned, transported back. Let’s talk to them at Sketchley’s and other people and see who’ll give us the best contract and let all the branches do their own cleaning locally. So it goes into the cleaners Monday and Tuesday when the hire clothes go in and they’re back in the store by Wednesday and we haven’t got people tied up doing it. I then got planning consent for that bit of property, which we were paid, we then were paid, a million pounds we sold that for. Again, we had to close the unit down, had to be done. We got a million pounds for that outfit, then what I did with that and the other money that we generated out of closing the other activities, there was a little public company we knew of called Fairdale Textiles, which had, they started life as cloth merchants selling cloth to retailers, they then started to make ready-to- wear clothes and then what they then did is started, when their customers got into trouble, retailers, they bought their retailers. So they were a fairly vertical group of its kind and we knew them quite well and one day I said, got the board together and I said, you know, I think what we ought to do is buy Fairdale Textiles. And it was still 1982 and things were still, you know, moving in the right direction, so everyone said fine. I went along, did the deal, bought them without diluting a penny piece of the equity, bought them for loan note and cash, because Philip Froomberg insisted he didn’t want Moss Bros shares which would have made him millions at one stage, he wanted cash for his business. Okay, with cash and loan note, we paid off for it in eighteen months. It doubled the size of our retailer business, they hadn’t been making money at all and what I’d done out of their clothing, their wholesale business and their cloth business, I just let the two people who were the main owners of Fairdale’s, I just said you operate that, I’m moving your premises, we can’t operate anywhere else, I said and I’ve got news for you, we’re gonna move. And he went and said to Monty, ‘You can’t let this man speak to us, you own the business Monty, we own our business’. At that stage I still had the backing, and moved them. Their little unit, by the time I left Moss’s, was producing a quarter of a million a year, profit below the line. That in itself as opposed to what we did, so overnight we double the size of the retail outlets, without diluting any of the family’s equity, and we started to rock and roll. I became I suppose, increasingly arrogant, because my record was good and I thought that that record, irrespective of what I’d done to the Moss family, made me fireproof. Now, to Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 25 C1046/011 Track 25 be fireproof in those days, asbestos was the thing, I didn’t realise how dangerous asbestos was. [laughs] And at that point – where are we for time? Oh, we’re okay, we’re fine for time. Okay, fine. So you know, that’s the stage we’d reached. So round about 1984, everything was going swimmingly. But then the politics started to emerge and I think Peter Moss, together with Fred Smith and Bernard Thomas started to produce a little cabal between the three of them and Peter Moss by that time was fairly influential, because he was the youngest of the Moss family, he’d become my Deputy Managing Director, or Deputy Managing Director when I became Chief Executive. And gradually the time had come, because profits were increasing every year. My track record was as good as can be, still got a copy of a cartoon that the Daily Mirror did of me, when it was a semi- respectable journal, showing ‘The Man Who Made Moss’s a Million’, that’s when we hit the million pound profit and I always said in five years I would hit a million pound profit, which we did. And the year in which I was fired, which was my last year of management of the company, made two million, and I was out.

So, how did that happen?

I knew that there were vibes afoot to oust me, but I felt that because we had three institutions all with ten per cent each and because of my track record, as I said, I thought I was fireproof. Not with the City institutions. They all took one pace back. I went to see each of them and they said, sorry old chap, but you know, your time’s come, your time’s gone. The Moss family have got forty per cent and we wouldn’t take on any business where forty per cent is owned by the family however good you are, so we can’t support you. And I was just fired. I went away on a week’s ski-ing holiday with some friends, had a note while we were away to say Monty would like to talk to you, the Chairman would like to talk to you and he handed me a letter and he said the board have decided that the company no longer need your services.

I’m confused.

Not as confused as I was, not as confused as – that was after forty-one years – not as confused as I was. Or, the shock, you know, the press were very sympathetic. Unfortunately I, in those days there weren’t large payouts, it was before the time of large Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 26 C1046/011 Track 25 payouts, and I was a salaried employee, I’d bought this other house in eighty-three, eighty- four, had a large mortgage, had an overdraft. At that stage corporation tax was, income tax rather, was sixty per cent, so I wasn’t earning that much of an income although I was being adequately paid for what I was doing. So I just couldn’t fight it. And of course, as you can imagine, just absolutely destroyed. Absolutely destroyed.

Can we take a step back to – the bit I was confused about was the thing about the City institutions. What was their influence on…

Well they were shareholders and I was hoping that as shareholders they would support me rather than the family.

I see.

Foolish, foolish me. But there’s an interesting aside to that one which comes later on with Hartnell. [laughs] But, you know, we faced up to it with stiff upper lips. Press, everyone, very very understanding, sympathetic. But Moss’s had got what they wanted; Peter Moss was appointed as Managing Director in my place. He lasted six months and he was a Moss with all the family shareholding backing. And he lasted six months. But didn’t lose his job. Didn’t lose his job, or the salary increase that went with it, but we mustn’t get bitter or petty about it, but we’re just telling it as it was. Then the man called Wilfred Cass took over as Managing Director and the business started to decline further. I always remember, shortly after we took over Hartnell, I was with one of our designers, we’d been asked to reproduce – the dress was in the National Gallery and we bumped into Wilfred Cass who was then Chairman and Managing Director of the company and he put his out his hand, which I gave my undivided indifference because I’m not gonna be a hypocrite, not unless it suits me [laughs]. And he said, ‘Manny, we’ve been all through your papers and what we can’t find was what was the next part of your strategy’. And I said, ‘Beg pardon Wilfred?’ He said, ‘Yes, well we know you got the company where it was, but you know, we’ve now reached this stage and what we’d like to do is know at least what your strategy was for the future’. And I said, ‘Wilfred, you have got to be joking’ I said, ‘because I don’t think the company has got enough money in the pots for me to tell you what – you wanted it pal, you’ve got it’. But that’s, you know, that’s the state they got Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 27 C1046/011 Track 25 them into. One of the things I had started, a part of my strategy, was to take over the Cecil Gee group and this again is well – not well documented, but one of the big City groups – I can’t think of the name for the moment – but one of the big City bankers will know and probably still have notes on it. What I had said to Michael Gee – there were three Gee brothers – I said to Michael Gee, we’ll take you on the board, but only have one Gee on the board and we’ll buy the business. They did eventually, Moss’s eventually bought it, they put all three Gees on the board, two of which became Managing Directors and had to be removed ‘cos of the mess they made of it, all had their noses in the trough, paid well over the odds. To give you a further indication of the state the business was in when I took over as MD, or Chief Executive which one insisted on becoming, when I took over, I’ve got the letter at home still which says that our pension fund was thirty per cent funded when I took over. It was about ten per cent over funded when I left. Because apart from getting profits back, I put all that money back in. Harry Vanson had got into, with Basil Moss, into this thing. We wouldn’t give people a good living, but when middle line executives came up to retirement, we’d give them an increase before they retired so that they got two-thirds, or whatever, fifty per cent salary. What they didn’t understand was what that was doing, you hadn’t built up the fund. And they were trustees of the fund and you know, they didn’t understand and suddenly we found ourselves with a pension fund that was just under thirty per cent funded. So that had to be put right in my seven years as well. But I had to do some very difficult things to do it.

What do you think it was about you that, where you had this success and you were able to see what had to be done and to make these decisions and yet all the other people you’ve mentioned weren’t able to?

I’m not saying that none – I don’t think Fred Smith could have done it, maybe Bernard Thomas might have been able to, but certainly the Moss family weren’t capable. The Moss family only had those jobs because they were Moss brothers and they were family, but they’d never earned those jobs in terms of performance. I’d got my job in terms of what I had done over the years. I’d demonstrated over a number of years that I could look at situations and see where the opportunity was. So I’d proven myself. The only other one I think that might have done it would have been Bernard Thomas possibly, who thought he was gonna get the job I think when I went. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 28 C1046/011 Track 25

What was his background?

Started life at Moss Bros, again, worked with Harry Vanson closely as an assistant to him, and then went to work for United Drapery Stores and rose rapidly, became Managing Director of a number of subsidiaries and then Managing Director of Whiteleys which was a major store in the old days, one of the number one stores. Then opened a carpet warehouse, which was doing really well for him, but then got himself involved in a strike which cost UDS dearly, and from that moment on, his cards were marked and when Harry Vanson became Managing Director in 1975, Harry brought him, he brought him in as Sales Director. And he was a good, in my opinion was a good Sales Director. I made one or two, I made several mistakes. One of the mistakes I made, I was too loyal to the guy who was my merchandise executive, I should have got rid of him but I think because I felt I was being ganged up to get rid of him, I wouldn’t do it. Now, in hindsight in my opinion, was definitely a mistake on my part. And I’m prepared to admit it. I shouldn’t have supported Gordon Woodward the way I did, he wasn’t the right man for the job. You know, as I said before, I didn’t get everything right by any manner of means, but my God I got a darned sight more right than I got wrong.

It sounds like other people would sort of form into groups and you wouldn’t?

If you, no, I try to avoid that and you get it more in a family business because if you can influence a member of the family, then you can make it happen. I’ve always tried to have a team, rather than little groups, ‘cos I don’t think the dynamics work well in a little group. And in the first three or four years maybe, we avoided the little groups. But once things all settled down, then you know, and you’ve got – I’ve always sort of said the person who referred to Fred Smith as a combination of Iago and Dr Goebbels had it right in my opinion. But they said it, not me. [laughs] And he was very good at that, but he was intensely ambitious. But eighteen months after he had a blazing row with Peter Moss and he went. [laughs] So I’m told. And Bernard Thomas went shortly after. And the Mosses brought in the Gees and the Gees are far better operators and the Mosses without Manny Silverman were decimated by the Gees. Weren’t in with a chance. The Gee family are very, very smart operators, they’re very able. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 29 C1046/011 Track 25

And what was that effect on Moss Bros?

The effect on Moss Bros initially, I think what it did, well first of all it diluted the Moss family holding so there were then two family holdings, the Mosses and the Gees, so you then had two different family holdings. A man called Neil Benson who I knew became Chairman. And the business flourished, but the Gees always had a way of making profits, which unfortunately afterwards turned into losses and there was a purple period where the Moss shares were worth an enormous amount of money. In fact so much so that the Moss family and the Gee family were in the top five hundred wealthy people in the country. They’re a long way from – the shares that at one stage soared to just under three pounds went back to a point where they were only twenty-five p each. But that’s been, it would seem that that has been the Gee, somehow, I wouldn’t want to say this was the Gees’ fault, but this is you know, we’ll pump ‘em up, sell shares and this is what appeared to be happening. And again, I don’t want to make too much comment about the business after I left it, not because I have opinions, but I don’t think you can really, if you’re not in the middle of it, I don’t think you can make comment on decisions or course of actions. The only thing I would make a comment on, because the moment it was announced I said it was gonna be the biggest balls up since Mons or the flood, and that was this thing code, which cost the business millions. One of the last things I did which I fought Monty on tooth and nail, was I sought planning permission for the Covent Garden site and Monty literally bleated at board meetings, ‘He’s spent a hundred thousand so far on legal fees, how can we keep spending this money?’ I got the consent, the evidence is there that I gave evidence in chief at the planning enquiry. The Moss Bros site, which was in the books for nine hundred thousand, was subsequently sold about three or four years later for twenty- five million pounds. And I was fired just as the, once the result – I think I’ve mentioned this before – I was fired as the result came – once they knew the result of the enquiry, I was fired.

So that you wouldn’t have any stake in…?

Yeah. And again, I think we may well have the press cuttings for all of that as well.

Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 30 C1046/011 Track 25

Planning permission for what though?

To redevelop the whole of the Covent Garden site. I pushed it through. I got support from other members of the board, but I pushed it through, I gave evidence in chief at the planning enquiry and as I say, once we knew that that was, we’d got it, because after I’d already been told I was fired, I was told, I had a telephone call to tell me that we’d got the planning consent. There you are, life is like this.

You said you were destroyed by it, in what way, can you elaborate?

Well, you’ve been inst… you know, if you’ve worked for one company for over forty years, Anna you’re institutionalised. And when you’ve been Chief Executive and a very successful one for seven years, you know, you’ve got all the trappings, not that we were very generous as a company, but I didn’t know what it was to buy a car, to get a car serviced, to – well you never kept it long enough to have to get it MoT’d. You know, all these things – private health, all these things were taken care of. Fortunately I’d never had a car and driver so I wasn’t without. But you know, suddenly everything is taken from you.

There was no golden handshake in those days? Was there any kind of…

No, I was screwed to the – they pitched it perfectly to the absolute minimum. They pitched it to the ab… what they did was they said, you know, although your contract says you’re entitled to three years…

[End of Track 25]

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[Track 26]

…salary, we’ll give you one, or you can fight us. And I didn’t have the wherewithal to fight. Now, but you know, that’s then, a) I didn’t have the financial resource – and I spoke to two or three – if I’d had my lawyer that I have now, who I met shortly afterwards, I would have fought, but I didn’t have cash, I had an overdraft. I was suddenly gonna be out of work. No, they got their own back for Basil and for Stephen.

So how did you cope financially after that point?

Well, I got my pay-off, which was you know, it didn’t come to a six figure sum in those days, when I look at what there is available now. So we used that to pay off, part of that to pay off the mortgage, so we no longer had that round our necks. And I started to get little bits of consultancy work and started to look around and gradually things started to come my way. But it was a - and you can imagine how it was for Patricia – but it was a very, very traumatic period in my life. Very traumatic. But there you are, you know. And you just, you know, I remember saying to one of the journalists I was talking to, you know, you can’t look back because if you look back all you find yourself doing is bumping into lampposts and that doesn’t help the situation anyway. And you just have to force yourself to go forward.

And, other than financially, how did you cope with it?

With a degree of difficulty, but that difficulty was kept within. It was very difficult for Patricia, everyone was supportive. I’m sure a few people thought, well there you are. And you know, if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. I’d had to say goodbye to a lot of people I’d known and I had to live with that and that did go through my mind from time to time, well now you know what it’s like yourself. You have to accept that. But you know, to be fired for success… And I’d never done, what I can say hand on heart, I’d never done anything wrong, criminally or morally, the whole time I was in that business. They could not level that at me. Had I been better placed, I would have fought – I couldn’t have fought for my job because that was it, that was a board decision, but my God today I could have fought for compensation and considerable compensation. But they’d pitched it Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 32 C1046/011 Track 26 at such a point that it just every – I had three different lawyers look at it and each one said, well look, you’d probably win but you’d then probably go without, you’d have to borrow money on which to live until you’d fought the case. They’d thought it through, they’d got this man in called Wilfred Cass who was a friend of Monty’s, who was very, very bright at this sort of thing and he’d worked it out perfectly. They’d got it – oh it was about the only thing they ever did really well, was the shaf… That was one of the things I said, you know, at least thank God they did something properly, but why did it have to be to me. [laughs]

So, from your perspective now, looking back over your relationship, long relationship with the Moss family who gave you your first entry into business, how do you feel about the relationship?

They owe me a darned sight more than I owe them. But if you want to switch your machine off a second.

[break in recording]

Switched back on now. But, when you look back at what has happened since, it’s frightening. And I haven’t particularly wished it. But you know, you’ve just got to make of it what you will, but it’s frightening isn’t it, to see what happens. But obviously none of that, that’s totally off record, but that really, you know, I think about that from time to time.

So, do you look back on your long career with Moss Bros with any kind of – d’you have a certain feeling attached to that period or…

I feel that I never really enjoyed the fruits of my labours. That’s about all. But it’s life. Other people have had worse breaks, other people have had better breaks. But it’s life. I had to do some unpleasant things to people, eventually people had to do unpleasant things to me, but then unpleasant things happened to those people.

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And before next time when we talk about Norman Hartnell et cetera, is there anything that you would have, you regret that you didn’t do during that period of time?

I think the one mistake, the fundamental mistake I made, I don’t know how I could have dealt with it, but I think in my dealing with the Moss family in order to make the changes that I made, I think I lost sight of the fact that the Moss family were effectively my power base. And I felt - I mentioned the word arrogance before – and I felt I’d reached a stage just based on performance and the fact that the City would back me, that I’d reached a stage where you know, I didn’t go out of my way to alienate them but they became just the same as anybody else. And I think I should have made a point of cultivating or maintaining the power base. Whether that would have worked or not I don’t know, because Basil still had to go and Stephen still had to go because they were negative influences on the business. But what it did do by not cultivating that power base, it enabled Fred Smith and Bernard Thomas to ally themselves to Peter Moss who was Basil’s son and you know, I’d fired Basil, his father, who was Chairman, or created the climate and situation where he decided to retire. If you’re a political animal, which I never have been as such, it leaves a lovely opening. And I missed it. But, life goes on.

And you described actually joining the board in sixty-seven as a ‘golden leg iron’, ie you missed out on having shares in another business and so on. Do you sometimes think about the possibilities that you gave up?

Not really, no. Because I never, you know, well first of all with I Was Lord Kitchener’s Valet, that went belly up when it got busy with Mr Freedom. [laughs] So one never knows. One, you know, that’s the imponderable. There’s no I could have done this, or I could have done that. Yes, there were opportunities, but I don’t know how they would have turned out. It’s one thing being able – although we did things afterwards – but you know, you can’t quantify what doesn’t exist. That seems to me a good…

Okay.

[End of Track 26]

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[Track 27]

Okay. Right, where are we? So it’s the fourteenth of December 2005 and I’m here with Manny Silverman in his own home and for the tape, could you describe the room that we’re sitting in?

Ooh! It’s just a sitting room. You know, I’m not a Rupert Llewellyn Jones or whatever the fellow’s name is, I don’t go – ask me to describe clothing and I’ll do it for you, but a room I can’t describe. It’s just a pleasant, reasonably sized sitting room and can’t say very much more than that about it. A few photographs scattered around, a small television but a nice blazing, almost real fire and that’s about it. It may not be much, but it’s home.

I notice you’ve got various paintings on the wall.

Uh huh.

And what are they, where have they come from?

These three, the roses here and those two are by an Italian artist who lives and works in Suffolk and we bought those from a gallery in the area. We just looked at them, we rather liked them, I think they capture the mood beautifully and I think the sheer quality of the painting – I’m no, nothing like any form of expert but I do know what I like and if something looks good to me I like to have it. So, we bought those two landscapes which I think are very, very fine. Thought the picture of the roses was rather nice. The middle one we bought in a gallery, we went along and had a look-see and we thought there was particular poignancy about that, that you know, it is the autumn of their lives and also it looks like the autumn in terms of season, the leaves are falling, they’re turning to gold and just thought it was a lovely, lovely picture. The two behind you, the two little primitives, they are particularly special. I think you know, they may have also, in addition to have given us many, many, many years of pleasure, would also appear to I think have increased in value. We bought some Christmas cards a couple or three years ago, thought the artist looked familiar and it was the artist Espejo. Little silly story about them, we were in Paris in 1980 and we saw them in a gallery, Patricia fell in love with them but I said no, we just Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 35 C1046/011 Track 27 couldn’t afford them and when we got back I got someone to go over and buy them, pick them up for us, and they were her anniversary present for that year. But they’ve given us enormous pleasure, the colouring of them is absolutely beautiful. My one regret is there were a series of four but I only bought the two, but that’s with the benefit of hindsight. But hey, looking back I suppose that was better than buying one, or even worse not buying either of them.

Who’s the artist?

A Portuguese, I think it’s a Portuguese artist called Espejo. Not Gazpacio, Espejo. But you know, one wouldn’t want to part with them in any way, shape or form unless there was particular, specific need rather than a reason, because they have over twenty-five years given us an enormous amount of pleasure and they still do. Sometimes, you know, when the house sort of gets, has its wash and brush up like everything has to do on a regular basis, we sometimes move pictures around, primarily because I can’t ever remember where they were before. [laughs] So we have a little bit of a move around, so you know, and it’s funny how pictures work differently in different locations. But they’re, you know, they happen to be, they’re some pictures that we do enjoy.

And you’ve got various photographs in the room as well – of?

Well that’s, that was before I met you, so there’s only three of my favourite ladies there – the Queen Mother, Dame Vera Lynn and Patricia. And Patricia and myself, my late mother as a youngster and over there some friends who have shuffled off this mortal, some of whom have shuffled off this mortal coil. The one at the end there, the upright one with the young lady, you won’t have remembered because it’s many years ago, but it did hit the front pages. It was a very beautiful, unfortunately, beautiful picture of her on the front page of the Daily Mail. She was the girl that caught a cold, was wrongly diagnosed, had lunch with Patricia and she said to Patricia, I’m supposed to be going to Spain but don’t think I’ll be going. She then said she felt very, very bad, got this terrible cold. Called the doctor and got one of these doctors that just comes in on the round and don’t think he got the prescription right, because in three days she was dead. Septicaemia, pneumonia, you name it, it all crept in and we got a call the day before New Year’s eve at five or six Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 36 C1046/011 Track 27 o’clock in the morning from her to come quickly and Patricia got dressed, quickly went round there, got the ambulance, they got her into the Wellington Hospital, but it was too late to save her. Terrible. And there was quite a brouhaha about it, but what’s the point? Nothing will bring her back, all we’re left with are our memories of Susie. She was more Patricia’s friend than mine, but obviously you know, you have friends that are mutual friends, but as I say, very, very, very sad.

What’s her name?

Her name was Susie Garland. She was quite a good, she’d worked for Vogue and she was a fashion PR and reasonably successful. She was a one girl business, but had a nice flourishing business, but there you are, life can be so cruel. And unfortunately her funeral coincides with my birthday, which is rather sad, so okay as the years go by, without being maudlin about it, you don’t sort of, it isn’t quite you know, as traumatic as it was at the time it happened, but you tend to go out, celebrate the birthday, but you know, remember Susie and say okay let’s celebrate her life because she always enjoyed a good meal anyway, so… [laughs] So that’s domesticity dealt with.

And we’ll come on to this later on, but could you tell me a few of the things that you’ve been doing in the space between when we last met?

What have I been doing? I suppose really [laughing] I need to refer to my diary. We’ve had a very happy wedding on Sunday, which was very nice. One of Patricia’s friend’s daughters married, which was a particularly joyous occasion, very, very nice. I’ve been up in the north yesterday and the day before, which would be the twelfth and the thirteenth of December for the record, on a client who has a very small but successful fashion business, who I’ve been advising over the last year and will at least do so for another year. Just as it were, taking an objective, almost acting as a non-exec chairman, although she’s the owner of the business so she does what she wants. The advantage of working with someone like that is you don’t get involved with office politics, you’re dealing with the person who owns the business – well, she has a staff of about forty, fifty people – but you are dealing with the person that owns the business and you go through it with her and you say, now this is what I think we should be doing and the answer will be yes or no, or let me think Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 37 C1046/011 Track 27 about it, but there’s no diluting of the recommendation or anything of that nature, you just get on with it. And you know, I’m pleased to say that she very kindly said yesterday when we sort of summed up our first year, you know, I know a darned sight more about business generally and of my own business in particular than I did a year ago, which is very gratifying and very pleasing. There will come a time, I think probably the end of next year, when I think really she won’t really need my services, you know, she’ll have across, she may want to see me once every three months, every couple of months but you know, just as I say, as a watching brief. But this is what happens and the other client that I was up to see a couple of weeks ago, also in the north, that’s a rather more interesting situation, I can say less about it because it is sub judice and I’ve been asked to act as an expert witness in this particular action which involves some allegedly inferior merchandise, which I have been retained by the defendants in the action to give an opinion on the quality of the items in question and an opinion on the actions that the defendant took in the circumstances and what impact I thought it might have on the business.

What’s the name of the first business that you talked about?

I don’t ever give client’s business names. Unless, if I know in advance and I’ll ask the client’s permission. Some clients don’t mind, some clients just don’t want it be known that they’re taking outside assistance. I’ve always respected, I work on the basis that all clients are anonymous unless there’s a particular or specific reason to sort of mention them by name and in which case I will sort of discuss it with the client and the context in which I’ll be mentioning it and they must tell me yes or no. If, after all, at the end of the day it’s their bat and ball.

Okay. So in the last session you told me about your experience of being Chief Executive of Moss Bros plc and your leaving thereof.

Very much so, yes.

And I’m interested now in the period in between then and joining Norman Hartnell Limited.

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It’s a pretty traumatic period, but you just have to get a grip on yourself. I had a number of offers come my way, not as many as I would have liked and none of them as grand as I would have liked. But it was a different time, business was pretty well booming in eighty- seven in retail, so people weren’t looking for company doctor type rescue managements, so there weren’t all those great offers around. So I did a number of things with some interesting businesses. As I say I did some – I think I did mention, ‘cos it was a long time ago – I did some work for Terence Conran when he had the whole group, which included Mothercare, Richard Shops, Lord above only knows what. So that was an interesting time, I did some work on that. Also some work on some smaller businesses. So I was kept reasonably busy and within the loop and then had some very good friends who had, about a year, eighteen months prior to that, sold their house building business for a not inconsiderable sum of money even in those days and were looking for various things to do and one of the things we did is we, I was able to spot an opportunity to buy a freehold property in Savile Row, which we bought and that proved to be a very, very worthwhile deal, very interesting but very worthwhile deal. And then Hartnell became available.

Available?

Yep, it had gone into receivership and had been advertised in the Financial Times in terms of business for sale and I’d also heard about it on the grapevine, someone called me and said, might we be interested. So I spoke to the group and we put in an offer which was accepted.

So who is ‘we’ at the moment?

At the moment, there is no we, but in those days there were three people, there was John Hindle, Paul Turner and Roy Dixon. Roy had been a particularly good friend of mine over many years and they, the other three had had a very successful partnership in house building, building residential properties primarily in the north west. So you know, and they were prepared to say, you know, I recommended we buy this property and John said, ‘Well we’ll do it’ and I said, you know, ‘Who’s going to look at it?’ He said, ‘Well you’ve seen it haven’t you? We’ll have it’.

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Which was it, sorry?

It was in Savile Row and it was okay, it wasn’t a mega deal, but in terms of the world in which I live in properties in those days, and it still is a lot of money. It was a million pounds, but Hindle said, well you know, you’ve seen it, you know, who’s gonna look at it? He said, ‘Well you’ve seen it. We’ll have it’. And that’s the basis on which, you know, the relationship worked.

Can you tell me more about the building?

The building is an – the Hartnell building?

No, I’m thinking of the…

The building we bought? Oh, that was in Savile Row. I think it was twelve Savile Row, the building in which Huntsman’s the tailors are, and on the first floor was an art gallery and above that was residential, which the previous owners of the property and Huntsman’s used as their London home. Nice location for a pied-à-terre.

Indeed. And so, do you retain the freehold or have you sold it on?

We sold it, we sold it on about eighteen months later.

For how much?

Rather more than we bought it. Rather more.

No details?

No details. The taxman has been paid in full. No, that’s something that we were always very hot on, immediately we did the money, the taxation was taken out, put into a separate pot. It’s a lot of money – let me just put it this way, the tax that I had to pay on my share of the deal ran into three figures. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 40 C1046/011 Track 27

Right. I’m gonna struggle to get details out of you today. [laughs] Think in terms of social history Manny. [laughs]

Well let’s call it all social history. But it was the time, we just hit the right time of the property boom. What had happened is someone else had been negotiating for the property, I heard about it and said to the proprietors I think we’d be interested. Rang the agent, the agent said don’t interfere with other people’s deals and I said okay, and the boys said, we never interfere in other people’s deals. So I said, look fair enough, but if anything goes cold on it, we want first option. ‘Oh’, he said, ‘nothing’s gone cold on this one. Nothing’ll go cold on this one’. And I, Patricia and I were with our accountants on the Monday morning, I got a call while I was there to say look, having problems with the deal, if you can complete in a week, you raise the money and complete in a week, it’s yours. So Roy was ski-ing, he came back, drove back in the Espace with all the empty wine bottles, skis on the top. Patricia stood in a parking bay in Savile Row, he pulled up into there, we turned the seats round, it became a mobile office, we had no office at the time and we worked on it. Fortunately, the one thing that normally is difficult in these deals is funding. In this particular instance – well two things are difficult, the legal side and funding. Roy Dixon’s a solicitor anyway, so he did all the legal side. Paul Turner was an accountant, handled that side, the funding was in place, money was in the bank and we did the deal.

And have you had any dealings with the Huntsman business at all or is it just…

I knew the Huntsman business, I’d known them very well, I known the owners of the business, the Packer family, I’d known Edward Packer and his wife for many years because when I was involved in the Federation of Merchant Tailors and other trade bodies, and one of the joint Managing Directors, or he was then Managing Director because the other one had passed away, Colin Hammick, was quite a good friend of mine. Colin, probably the best dressed man, was voted the best dressed man in the world twice. Most elegant of men, used to dress people like – ooh, doo, doo, doo, Gregory Peck and people of that ilk, you know. Used to be sort of flown out all over the world with the fittings, to do them. So that’s how I came to hear about it, you know, because we were having dinner one night and one of them happened to mention, oh we’re selling our building. And I Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 41 C1046/011 Track 27 said, oh pity, pity you hadn’t mentioned it because we might have been interested, and that’s how it all came about. You know, so many of these things in life are pure serendipity.

So, moving on to Hartnell, was that serendipity, d’you think?

That was unfortunate serendipity, ‘cos that cost us a lot of money, but okay, life is like that, money’s meant to go round. I had met Norman Hartnell – did I ever mention this in the past? I had met Norman Hartnell ten, maybe fifteen years prior to that. He was selling off some old bits and pieces of menswear, uniforms and part of my second-hand buying, I was going down to Lovel Dene, which was his lovely place in Ascot. And Bill Wynn, who ran our theatrical department, was rather keen to meet him because he felt they could become friends. My view is live and let love. So I took him down with me, I did the, you know, unbelievable, the sort of the peacocks on the lawn, the young flunkeys in their camp uniforms in pinks and light blues – strange. Anyway, did the deal with his business manager, his business manager, Norman thinks it’s a lousy deal, but alright, he’ll take it. Fine, fair enough. Came down, by which time Norman and Bill were arm in arm on the terrace and as I came down, one of my most memorable lines and it can go in now because it’s far enough away, I shall always remember and treasure this. Norman looked at Bill Wynn and said, ‘You’ll have some Champagne Bill dear won’t you?’ Bill said, ‘Yes please’ and he turned and looked at me with a look of withering scorn and said, ‘Cat’s piss and tonic for you duckie’. [laughs] And that was our first meeting and our first exchange, but never really became a friend, but a very good acquaintance and we did get on well together. I thought he was a lovely, lovely character and I think should have not, certainly shouldn’t have died impoverished. A man of enormous talent, but I think was in the hands of the wrong people who milked him to death. Which was very, very, very sad. But again, there it is. So when the business came up, there was always this sort of, you know, affinity towards it. You know, particularly with my first – I always remember one of the nice things on the day that it was announced, and it did hit the press pretty hard, I don’t think there was much going on at the time and always remember someone ringing up and saying, ‘Guess what I’m drinking your health in?’ And I said, ‘Oh?’ and he said, ‘Yes, it’s cat’s piss and tonic’. It was Bill Wynn calling to say he’d read about it. So you know, it was great fun. Very exciting time. Very exciting time. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 42 C1046/011 Track 27

What was Bill Wynn like?

Bill was a lovely character, not a character, he was a very, very nice guy. I knew him as a mate, as an acquaintance really, he was never a friend because he had a series of different relationships to that which I found gave me pleasure. But again, you know, each to their own. But we got on very, we were close enough together for him to ring up, give me a call across and say look, any chance of me coming with you Manny? I said, of course. You know, I’ll give management a reason for it, by all means.

Was there any kind of lasting relationship between them?

They became a foursome. Norman’s partner at the time, or very close friend, was a man called Robb who was an artist. I mean it was Robb that got the exclusive drawings for the Daily Express the day of the Coronation. He got, he had the exclusive drawings on the day of the Coronation. And Bill had a very close friend, they shared a pad together, called Trevor and I think they did become a foursome for a number of years I believe.

Robb who, was the artist?

Robb, he was just known as Robb, the cartoonist. R-O double B. Obviously a famous cartoonist of his time. But Lovel Dene the house, in Ascot, was quite beautiful.

Can you describe it a little more?

Again, no, just a lovely, lovely large rambling country house. Beautiful garden, gazebo at the end of the garden. For a kid from the East End of London it was quite something to see.

So, you mentioned the publicity there, but can you tell me more about the details of how you took over Norman Hartnell?

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Yeah. We put in a bid which wasn’t, first of all, wasn’t accepted. The landlords were rather anxious to get the lease of the building back. The landlords then put in an injunction or an appeal against the purchase, it went to court, we had a hearing, solicitors acting for the administrators went along and the judge, well who’s involved and you know, fortunately my reputation stood fine and they said, well you know, the man who will be chief executive and chairman of it will be Manny Silverman who was formerly Chief Executive of Moss Bros. And the judge said, well you know, anyone with that reputation, I know something a little about it as well, but anyone with his reputation is of the highest and it is obviously a serious bid and the objection was thrown out. It was very interesting. At that time they would have given us, I think, the thick end of a million pounds to acquire that lease back. It cost us what, three, four years later, it cost us nearly that to get out of it. [laughs] That’s how things change in property. It’s amazing Anna, how things change.

And the publicity, can you tell me more about what happened?

Oh, it was great fun. Television, radio, press, ‘A new king at the royal house of Hartnell’ was how the Express put it, it was great, a great ego boost. Particularly, I indulged myself more than I might otherwise have sensibly done because of the sort of post-trauma of earlier in the year being fired. There are some – we’ve still got the cartoon somewhere, I think two cartoons – the girl that used to do the, that first started The Times business diary twice awarded me a magnum of Brut Champagne with a cartoon in The Times having taken it over and what we’d achieved with it in the short term, you know, so it was great fun. Looking at the business, we realised when we’d bought it that it was in an even bigger mess. We had no debts with it because we bought it clean, that’s why we bought it the way we did, but it was sort of literally dying on its feet. And reputation had gone, one very, very famous fashion journalist who’s still very much around and is still a doyenne, asked me in an interview – I went off the record at that time with it, but now as time passes it doesn’t matter so much – she said to me, ‘Well, what’s the average age of your client base Manny?’ I said, ‘Well, let me put it to you this way, they regard me as a toy boy’.

Indeed.

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But we still had the Queen Mother and we still did a bit for the Queen and various other bits and pieces, but the glorious, glamorous days had gone. So, first year or so we worked with the existing people. We got good press, but nothing was ever going to take it into the stratosphere. You know, we wanted to relaunch it as a major brand, so we sat and thought long and hard about what to do with it and at that time a man called Marc Bohan who had been the head designer, design director for Christian Dior for thirty years, who took over from Yves Saint Laurent, had parted company. And I sat down with a team of people whose views I respected in the industry and I said, now dream, just dream, doesn’t matter, we’re not gonna take any action, but just dream. But dream within the context of what’s available. And the one name that came right the way through was Marc Bohan and everybody laughed and said, ha ha, what are we gonna do? And I said well we’re gonna see, find Bohan’s telephone number and I’m gonna go and see him. And we did and we met with him and I understood the psychology of the man at the time, because he’d been fired after thirty years, a new Managing Director, so I knew exactly how he was feeling. So, went to see him, we had a meeting with him, very nice lunch, beautiful apartment in Paris. We then had a second meeting over in Paris and met with his lawyer and you can picture the scene – one must be very careful when one says one’s partner, must say one’s business partner these days because it can very often – Roy Dixon who I refer to as my partner is a twenty stone northern, hard-drinking… So, but Roy and I were over there together and the lawyer told us how much a year Bohan wanted and we just wrote it down and as we got out there, Dixon said, ‘I nearly fell off me bloody perch!’ [laughs] It was a lot, a lot of money, a lot of money, but we took the view that if we were going to hit the heights we had to have a big, big name and the name – well it was very, very interesting, because I also talked to two people about hiring him, both strictly off the record, but two very senior players, probably the most serious and influential people in the industry at the time. One was John Fairchild of Womenswear Daily, which is the Bible of the industry and at that time, John Fairchild was riding so high, he was in the stratosphere and Suzy Menkes, who is the doyenne of fashion journalists. She’s been International Herald Tribune for the last twelve, fourteen years now. Prior to that was Independent. About the last time The Independent had decent fashion writing I think. That’s an aside, there may have been others, maybe I just don’t read The Independent. But where I goofed is I swore them both to silence, but on the basis that if it came off, they could have the exclusive. But I’d given them both an exclusive. But luck funnily enough plays its part in so many Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 45 C1046/011 Track 27 ways Anna. Because of the time difference, they both published on an exclusive basis on the same day. Because Herald Tribune published in the morning. Womenswear Daily published five or six hours later in the States and there was enough time difference not to have upset the apple – pure luck, but it really hit the highlights. What I’ve done, I’ve got three books of cuttings for you upstairs to take away, that you may want to mull through, covering the period and gives you an indication of the sort of coverage that the business got. We could have made an enormous amount of money, there was one investment fund, wanted to put big, big money into us, to the point - they were a publicly quoted fund – to the point that they had their annual general meeting in the salon with a fashion show. They wanted to be so much associated with the business. And Roy took the view – not so much me, because Roy had money in the bank at that time, I didn’t – Roy took the view that we’ll keep it, the way it’s looking and the hype that was going, we’ll keep it for ourselves. Big, big, big mistake, because we could have got an enormous amount of money for it and I could have continued running it. That was gonna be the deal. So, you know, it was just one of those things that it just caught the imagination worldwide. WWD did a profile on me and it was reprinted in Japan with the text in Japanese of the interview. It was just one of those freakish things that happened at the time. It became big, big, big, big news.

And how did you feel about becoming such a well-known personality?

To the manor born. Loved it. But as I say, it became, it all became just a little bit too ego driven. When one looks back and thinks about it in the cold light of day, it did, I got caught up and made the – not the, yes it was, I suppose you’d call it a fatal mistake – but the worst mistake you can make is when you get caught up and start to believe in your own publicity. It’s very, very dangerous. Very, very dangerous.

A few questions. The figure being asked by Marc Bohan, what was it? And what did you pay him?

We paid him what he asked. But let me put it in this…

A comparative sense, go on. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 46 C1046/011 Track 27

In a comparative sense, you could certainly – this is on a yearly basis – there are certain parts of London, not here, not Knightsbridge, not Chelsea. I’m not talking about these houses, you go across the road you’ll see houses that are selling for twenty-five million pounds, owned by the Russians and the Indians, the Bishops Avenue, but you could certainly buy the freehold of a house in the suburbs or the outlying boroughs, certainly buy the freehold of a house and maybe have a bob or two to do it up as well. But we felt this was the right thing to do. And it certainly, in terms of raising the profile of the house, it was enormous. You know, when we had Bohan’s first show, which we did at Claridge’s, the Evening Standard had it on the front page as the hottest ticket in town. You know, people were ringing up, someone rang up, Patricia answered the phone and she said, ‘This is Lady so and so, I haven’t received my invitation’. Patricia said, ‘Well you know, are you a customer, are you on a list?’ She said, ‘I’m a friend of the Silvermans’. And Patricia said to me, put the phone down, she said, ‘D’you know her?’, I said, ‘No’. She said, ‘Well, I’ll look into it for you, but I don’t think we can accommodate you’. She said, ‘Well I’ll be speaking to the Silvermans’. She said, ‘Well I suggest you do that’. But it was that sort of thing, it really was. And you’ll get an indication from the press, from the press cuttings book upstairs, that I’ve got out for you. It really was quite freakish. The show was very well received. But we’ll stop at that point because you said you had some questions for me. You know, one of my answers turns into, I know, a half an hour monologue.

Well, no. Hmm. A tricky question, but can you describe what was on show in that show?

Better than that, there will be pictures of it in the press cuttings and we may even well somewhere have a video of it. But they were beautiful garments. What was interesting Anna, is that one of the things that people were saying, well you’ll never get the skilled hands to be able to make the things the way he likes them made. What was fascinating was the number of young people that wrote to us asking if there was a job in the workroom to work for Mr Bohan. That really was lovely. That really was absolutely lovely. It even featured, there was a fashion book, quite a nice one, an A4 size, I’ve probably got a copy of it upstairs, they even, talking about couture, even featured one of the garments in there. Suddenly from being totally dead and moribund the commercial rationale in paying Bohan Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 47 C1046/011 Track 27 the money that we did was that if we would get ten per cent of his existing clientele, he would be self-funding. So there was a commercial rationale in what we were doing. What we hit was the start of the major economic downturn combined with, I think it was eight or nine days into the start of the first Iraq war. So none of the Americans came over, none of the Japanese came over, none of the French came over and that was it. He was on contract. We had to find the money to pay him. We had to find money for all the other overheads and as I say, there was a commercial, you know, we sat down and we did do the sums, we weren’t you know, entire muggings, but we had this hope if you like, that if we could retain ten per cent of his clientele, who were very loyal. So the people that did stay were people like Sophie Mutter, the violinist. Sophie Mutter stayed with us and people like that, but there weren’t enough of them. And of course, when things are difficult, relationships get strained and we just ran out of cash. Well, let’s put it this way, we’d reached the point where my three partners – although by that time they’d been bought out, they were prepared to be bought out and we were happy to buy, Roy was happy to buy them out and we owned the business between us on a fifty-fifty basis with Roy funding it and Roy just said, I just cannot afford to put any more money into it. We just have to go knife. Enormous losses, but the nice thing about it is that virtually unlike so many receiverships or winding up in the fashion industry, we wound up owing virtually nothing to anybody. Nobody got, the only people that got hurt financially were myself to a far lesser degree and Roy to an enormous degree, but what we did do, we played it as ethically as we knew how. Right to the point where I popped round to Michael John the hairdresser and I said, ‘Michael, do you have an outstanding account with us?’ and he said, ‘It’s only for a few hundred quid, it doesn’t matter’. And I said, ‘We’d like to clean the books up’ and couldn’t tell him what we were doing and he didn’t send the account in. I said to him, ‘Michael, I asked you’. And it was only a few people like that, but we didn’t put any small business who was acting as a supplier to us, in jeopardy. There was nothing like that about it at all.

Why?

That’s the way we do things. Fortunately Roy and I were of the same mind. You know, Roy was far more ethical than I, I think because Roy had, you know, Roy might have salvaged some money out of it, not that he could have salvaged great money because it Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 48 C1046/011 Track 27 would have just gone in overhead, but he could have made some money, but just don’t do things that way. You know, we’re not in it to do, you know. Life’s too short Anna. You don’t carry on like that. You know, okay, some people are driven through desperate straits to do things like that, but you know, we just left it clean. Given a clean bill of health. When, some time later I was going to be, I became, or was going to become a director of a public company which I was involved with bidding for, I had an enormously favourable press as being, you know, my name went to the Stock Exchange and they immediately said, a totally clean bill of health. Now, I didn’t know that was gonna happen, but that’s one of the paybacks that you get when you behave like that.

Can we take a step back?

Sure.

To when you first took over Norman Hartnell. You mentioned the young workers that came when Marc Bohan came – what was the state of the company in terms of workforce and sales and so on when you first took over?

Sales were virtually non-existent. Workforce, there was a team of loyal retainers who had been paid. We had George Mitchison who had been running it previous to that, who was the royal warrant holder as an individual. Normally when a business goes broke, which it had done, the royal warrants get returned, back to the Palace. Again, the value of a good name, it was written, wrote a letter to say that I’d taken it over but George Mitchison would be staying with us as a non-executive director, although I would be running the business. And the Palace wrote back, the Royal Warrant Holders’ Association, and said you know, in the circumstances, we’ve checked you out and you know, we’re happy for the company to retain the warrants. Obviously when it comes for renewal, then we’ll have to look at the situation but in the interim period, you know, the royal warrants stay above the door. The labour force, again with one or two exceptions, wasn’t the youngest. But they were a very loyal force and at least they got three and a bit more years’ work than they might otherwise have done. Some of them would have got jobs elsewhere, of course, they were experienced hands but they were in an environment that they’d worked in for many, Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 49 C1046/011 Track 27 many years so they didn’t have the upheaval and disruption into their lives till about three, three and a half years later.

So, in that initial period that you spoke of, did sales improve to a great extent?

Not to a great extent, no. First of all we used a man called John Anderson, who’d done work for the Queen, as the designer and a man called Roger Brines who’d worked extensively with Princess Margaret over the years. Both had a small following. John Anderson then went off on his own with his male partner and the vendeuse who’d looked after the Queen went with them, so they got the Queen’s business. And so that, but that was no great hardship. We then took the services of a man called Murray Arbeid, very good UK designer, but Murray also had his own business and his own brand. So there was always, although he did very good collections for us, you know, a lot of the publicity that was getting was going his way rather than for us, so that wasn’t working out. So it was then that we decided – at no stage was the business remotely breaking even, because we were trying to keep everybody on.

Did you say that losing the royal warrant to Mitchison didn’t - what effect did it have?

We didn’t, no we didn’t lose the Royal Warrant, you know, George was the individual who, the Royal Warrant is given to a business, but to an individual within that business, so we kept George on. And he retained, he was the Royal Warrant holder as such, but the business has the warrants.

Oh sorry, I’m confused. The bit about the Queen’s business.

Oh the Queen, well the Queen, her business went elsewhere but we still continued to hold the Royal Warrant.

I see.

The Queen has three or four Royal Warrant holders, or she did have – there was Hardy Amies, there was Norman Hartnell, there was John Anderson. The name, the chap who Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 50 C1046/011 Track 27 eludes me who had worked for Hartnell also prior to going on his own, who died rather tragically on the operating table. So you know, you can have more than one warrant holder for a particular category.

I see. And then on to Marc Bohan. How would you describe your relationship with him?

Stormy. He was the most charming delightful man when he was charming and delightful, but the most difficult bastard it’s been my misfortune to encounter. Absolutely. You know, but as I say, he’d been a total autocrat for a highly successful Christian Dior business. Huge, multi, multi million business operating out of Avenue Montaigne in Paris, comes over to this little house. You know, it’s one of the – but what the first collection did do, talking about - I’m not sort of trying to sort of get away from Bohan, it was just that the relationship was stormy. But what was interesting, we served to launch two young people who had, well one of them had a bit of a business but wasn’t really flying as high and the other had not been long been out of college, and Bohan was looking for people to do the hats and the shoes and this virtually unknown to the public milliner called Philip Treacy was given the job, hats, and a Malaysian Chinese guy called Jimmy Choo did the shoes. Jimmy still looks after Patricia very, very closely. We’re friends with the family, we know Emily the daughter, we know Rebecca the wife. Patricia was over there Saturday afternoon having a cup of tea with them, you know. But they did the, one did the shoes, one did the hats. It really was quite something, as one talks more about it, you know, you can remember more and more about it. It was a great time, I wouldn’t have missed it. I wouldn’t have missed it. I was very, very fortunate to have had the privilege of doing it and I suppose, if you’re going to be unfortunate enough to lose money, that’s the way to lose it. In style. Without hurting anyone except yourselves. And it being great fun while it lasts. It was like a movie premier, the first collection, because we stayed awake till about one, two in the morning and went to one of the stations which was still open and got the morning papers to read the crits, which were pretty favourable.

What are Philip and Jimmy like?

Philip, very, very nice man, bit of a loner. Very, very nice guy but I think surrounded now by lots of other people and when you’re surrounded by lots of people and things happen, Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 51 C1046/011 Track 27 then the past tends to fade away into the distance. Jimmy’s totally different. Jimmy today is Jimmy. And Jimmy today always remembers and always says to Patricia, ‘You want it, you have it’. In an article a couple of years ago he said his favourite client, Patricia Silverman.

That’s lovely.

You know, some tips came off of some boots that he made for her and she said where can I get them, you know, I’ve got these and others to be repaired Jimmy and he said, you bring ‘em me. You know, and they go into Jimmy Choo couture. Different scenario, different people, different times. It’s life. Is it just too warm for you or…

No.

You’re comfortable, okay fine.

[laughs] It’s very nice. Of course you did have the Royal Warrant though, as well. Did you personally have any contact with the Queen Mother or the Queen?

No. Because I believe very strongly that the relationship that client, all clients have is with the designer, not management. And unless anyone specifically asked to see me, for whatever obscure reason it might have been, I stayed out of the way. It’s so easy to want to, you know, gonna be in on this one. Even this particular photo was at a social, it was at a charity event we were involved with, but other than that I never, never, never.

And, you spoke about City institutions, one particular with Norman Hartnell, but I wanted to ask, in relation to Moss Bros, you talked about certain City institutions that wouldn’t support you when it came to…

One of the institutions that – well the institution that wanted to put money in, the individual was one of those people who I went to see who was a major Moss Bros shareholder that said he couldn’t back, wouldn’t back me, he was one of the three. And so he said to me, ‘Why didn’t you come and see me, we’d have bought it with you’. And I Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 52 C1046/011 Track 27 said, ‘Come on, Mr X, who’s kidding who?’ But that’s how the wheel turns isn’t it, that’s why I said to you about City, you know, quite honestly, you know, they’re, the City upmarket gentlemen are worse than whores, whores do it for money and that’s it. These people have no sense of morality whatsoever in any circumstances in my experience. I’m sure there are some that do, but…

So in relation to Norman Hartnell, can you tell me how it sort of went wrong?

We ran out of money. We couldn’t, as I say, we didn’t get the volume of business that we expected and I think a lot of it was – well there were two factors. There was the recession, plus as I say, the start of the Gulf War. First Gulf War as it was then. And we just couldn’t generate enough income to meet the overheads. And you know, Marc was costing us an enormous amount of money. We, in addition to his salary, he had an apartment in Mayfair which we provided for him. It was costing us an enormous amount of money. And we just, there wasn’t the cash, you know, to do what we thought we could do, you know, Rosemary Bravo has done it with Burberry, but their war chest was unbelievably deep at Gussie’s. Our war chest was nothing like as deep as we needed to be.

Don’t understand, what do you mean?

In terms of cash.

Ah.

You know. Gussie’s acquired billions, a cash pile of billions I think, so they had the money to go for it. A hundred and fifty million, whatever it was, but they had the money to support it and carry it through. We ran out of money before we ran out of steam. But once we ran out of money, that was it, you just come off the tracks.

So in practical terms, how did you sort of use the money until it ran out?

Well primarily salaries. Salaries, all the usual overheads that you have in running a business. You’ve got the occupancy costs, which are rent and rates, you have utilities; Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 53 C1046/011 Track 27 lighting heating, all that go with it and then you have a staff of forty, fifty people. It’s a hell of a wage bill. And one in particular is taking more than the rest put together. So you double that up and you know, you’re just spending more and then the cost of the collections were pretty horrendous. Well horrendous, relatively speaking, but you know. One particular dress, the embroidery from Lesage, which is the most famous embroiderer out of Paris, cost us twenty thousand pounds. That’s just for one dress.

And what happened about your own salary?

We just, I mean the last period of time, we didn’t. Roy didn’t take a salary at all. Roy’s daughter worked with me, she was on a salary, but at the end of the day we weren’t taking, even when I was taking a salary it was nothing compared with what Marc was earning, but again, if you’re a proprietor or part proprietor of a business and you’re trying to build it, you’re not milking it. Particularly if the bulk of the cash is your partner’s, you’re not gonna try and milk the cash out of your partner’s pocket. You don’t do that. Or at least I, you know, our relationship, it wasn’t even considered.

And you mentioned that Roy lost a lot when you had to close the business.

When we wound it up, yeah.

What were his circumstances, how…

He still had other businesses and other interests, but let me just put it this way, that his losses ran literally into millions. Not tens of millions, not hundreds of millions, but still ran into millions, which was a significant part of his total wealth. But we still remain friends.

Looking back, do you, how do you feel about your part in the decision making process?

Like everything else, with the benefit of hindsight, one would have done things differently. But if we talk about the two key – two key decisions. One I would have done differently, one I’d have done the same. The offer to buy the business and have the backing, a) to have Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 54 C1046/011 Track 27 taken capital and enough capital to keep me in a far better style of life than I have at the moment, but I’m not gonna complain about today, but I could have been worth so much more. So that decision I regret and I regret it for two reasons. One, I regret it because I’d have been in a lot more comfortable position than I am now, but two, I think there would have been sufficient resources available to me to have carried on and made it work. Second big decision, the hiring of Bohan, wouldn’t have changed it, it was the right decision. It did, it catapulted the brand worldwide. But they’re the two key, they’re the two, the other things are minor decisions that one might have done differently, but they were the two key decisions.

I’m sure you did explain fully, but why didn’t you accept the capital when it was offered?

Well Roy’s money was in the business to a huge extent relative to mine and we talked it through together and the excitement, the buzz being created, you know, Roy said no, I’m all for keeping it, let’s run with it, we’ll make the money, why should we, you know, we’ll run with it and make the big time with it and I supported him.

And when you say that if you had the funds to continue with the business, how would you have progressed it, what was your plan?

The plan was to a) restore the awareness of the brand on ultimately a global basis and the perception of the brand so that we could have had a core business which supported the brand and built a series of licences to produce a stream of income.

Very succinct.

Well that was, like most of these things, you know, okay there’s a great deal of detail goes into making it happen, but that’s the overall strategy.

So, am I right that there wasn’t a decision as such taken to close the business, it was just an inevitability?

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No, we took the decision. Roy took the decision when Roy said no, I can’t afford to put any more money into it. That was the decision. That was a decision. Yeah, okay we didn’t exactly drift, we plummeted into the situation and we reached a point where, you know, Roy said you know, we carry on like this, I can’t see the exit. And when you can’t see the exit in a losing situation, then you have to cut your losses. If you can’t see the exit. And we looked at it every which way but lose and we couldn’t see an exit, and if you can’t see an exit in a situation, then you’re committing suicide if you don’t take the decision.

You spoke of publicity when you took over, was there any attendant publicity when you had to close the business?

Oh, oh yes. Most of it was very favourable. Only had one unpleasant interviewer, BBC chappie who was making me out as you know, Baron Hardup or what have you, and we dealt with him as best we could, but he was gonna make it bad news because he didn’t like it, so that was it. But as for the rest, everybody seemed to be full of praise for what I’d done, how I’d done it and what a tragedy it was that it wasn’t gonna go forward and achieve what everyone felt was the right thing that we’d started.

Before we go onwards, can we switch a light on?

Yeah, d’you know, I was about to say…

I’m blinking at you in the darkness now.

You’ve got me at my best. Hang on, just run it round.

Lovely.

And just put this one on as well. Would you like a glass of water or a cup of something at this time or…

Would you?

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Not particularly, but… right, I hear what you don’t say.

Ever onwards.

Ever onwards. And upwards.

So what were your circumstances when Norman Hartnell officially closed?

Slightly difficult. Slightly difficult. But again, a few people asked me to look at their businesses and work with them and started to produce a little bit of income for me. I still had a little bit of, very small amount of capital, which I think we could have lived on until such time as I could have reached retirement and pensionable age, but I got various bits and pieces of work and some interesting things came my way. And then I got involved in a couple of things. One was this, Ely’s of Wimbledon, which is a large store in Wimbledon. Some people had got twenty-nine point nine per cent of the business that they’d bought from Boots the chemist and they made a bid for it and I became involved, I was going to run that if the bid succeeded, but as it happened the bid didn’t succeed, but the owners of the twenty-nine per cent made an enormous amount of money and I made a few bob out of it as well. So there were bits and pieces like that and gradually more and more people started to use my services and then I got involved also on the expert witness side of life, which again came about purely, someone called me up and said, ‘Someone’s called us up and said they need an expert witness on a particular case that they’ve got and it’s your level of experience, can you help?’ And I said well, I’ve never denied that I’m an expert, I’m expert on every bloody thing. I’ve never denied that. But a very, very close friend of mine is an international arbitrator and an expert witness and he said, no fine, I’ll show you what’s to be done, how you go about it and from that it’s grown. You can’t make litigation, it either happens or it doesn’t and they either use you or they don’t, but that’s been a useful source of income over the years. And you know, it’s great fun, you know, I can look back at missed opportunities. I can look back at opportunities that have come my way which I’ve certainly enjoyed and all in all, I think I’ve been very lucky.

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When you, was there, you mentioned with Ely’s that you would have become Chief Executive of that. After that didn’t take place, were you looking around for other opportunities?

No, I never actually marketed myself for a permanent position of that nature. By that time I wasn’t in the first flush of youth and people tend to look for younger managements these days. I got, the Ely’s opportunity came my way because they wanted a reputable retailer – I was in the Financial Times or was it The Times, said you know, now we understand this is a serious bid, you know, these people have now got Manny Silverman who will make his comeback with this and you know, and this is a bid worth backing sort of thing, you know. But that was circumstance, I happened to fit the bill at that particular time, but that was five years on after I’d left Moss’s at the age of fifty-five. Now, once you’re sixty in this industry, at the best you’re only gonna get a non-execs or you may get a couple of smaller jobs. I wasn’t particularly interested in taking a lesser job. That wasn’t really for me and again, if anything, you know, they may have been able to offer me something like the Ely situation which one would have said yes to, but you know, a couple of small businesses that I worked with which were in pretty dire straits, I managed to get them out of trouble.

Such as?

Well, there were two small retailers who again, they were clients and as such I won’t mention their names. But you know, they were both members of the British Shops and Stores Association where I’d known people in there and they’d contacted them and said look, we do need someone and in both cases, when I was introduced to the bank, ‘cos it was the bank, the bank said okay, you know, we’ll give it a run. And in both cases, you know, we got them sorted out.

What kind of decisions were you having to take?

I could only make recommendations, I wasn’t running the business. But, rationalisation in terms of product ranges, in terms of occupancies, in terms of staffing levels, in terms of business structure, in terms of marketing strategies. All the things that go towards turning Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 58 C1046/011 Track 27 a business round. In most cases you go into a situation, they’ll be maybe one or two fundamental things that are eating the heart out of a business. The rest is, I have what I call a ten per cent rule when I go into a business, I want to improve everything by at least ten per cent. Now, you’re never gonna do that, ‘cos nothing is that bad. If it is, rigor mortis would have set in a long time ago. But what you can do is you improve this by about two per cent, that by about three per cent, that by one and a half per cent and suddenly, that all comes through and you start to arrest the decline. Now once you’ve arrested the decline and you can show to the banks in particular that it ain’t getting worse, we’ve bottomed out, now if you’ll stick with us now we’ve bottomed out, we’ll start to build.

You mentioned there one of the many things, marketing recommendations. Can you give me an example of a recommendation that you’ve given that has assisted in improvement of marketing?

Ooh. Well there’s so many, I’ve never been in favour of buckshot press advertising. Always believed in being very tight, very focussed. I’ve always said don’t be all things to all people, know who your target market are, establish relationships, particularly if you’re a smaller business, an independent retailer, establish relationships with your client base, know who your clients are, understand who your clients are and then understand their aspirations and their needs and fulfil them and then when you’ve done that, let them know, not by press, write to them, be more focussed. I always regarded marketing as a relatively – it’s one of these lovely words that’s now even more fashionable than it ever was before. In basic terms to me, marketing is the creation of demand. And selling is fulfilling that demand. It’s as simple as that, so in marketing terms it is, you know, you are creating that demand. One of my clients I’m working on at the moment, she’s got a very successful business, is looking to grow this business. But what we’re doing now, and she’s a very articulate, very good – I’ve cut out advertising in the local glossy because it’s full of everybody else as well, but what she does do now is she’s built up a very good circuit, she talks at ladies’ lunches, who are primarily her clients or her potential clients. She’s very personable and the number of people that have come out, because that’s right for her business.

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Does that approach work for certain businesses?

And not necessarily for others. It depends how broadly based you are. It works better where you have an owner driver, where you have a personality. But if you’ve got a chain of shops, you know, whether it’s River Island or TopShop – okay people know of Philip Green, that’s a different thing these days – but where you’ve got a group of shops it’s the brand that you have to do it, but if you’re working in an area where there’s a comparatively limited potential client base, you aim towards that. So you’re building yourself, you are the business. So yes, there is aspiration behind the brand, but what matters is you’re the person that they want to come in and see, it’s your culture that they want to enjoy. Whereas, it is the persona of the brand. People go to TopShop because TopShop is perceived to be the place who are showing tomorrow’s clothes today. Now that’s supported by very powerful public relations and, public relations, and press advertising and shows in the broadest sense. But that wouldn’t be cost effective for a small business, only doing two or three million turnover. So you’ve got to also look at the financial structure of the business and say what is cost effective. Because what you might want to do in an ideal world Anna, for a particular business, may not just be cost effective in any way, shape or form and cost the business far more than it can afford. Basic philosophy, business philosophy I have adopted as mine a long, long time ago is the most important thing in business is not making a profit, it’s protecting the investment. Whatever you do, you don’t put the business in jeopardy. So at the end of the day, if you can’t make a profit this year you don’t take unnecessary chances just to go chasing a profit and put the investment in jeopardy. Here endeth the business dissertation. Other people might disagree, but there you are.

Some of the other clients that you’ve worked with in recent years, I noticed from the list you gave me, Scottish Enterprise – how did that come about?

I was recommended through someone in the Welsh Development Authority. [laughs] I’d done some work for the Welsh Development Authority, someone had recommended me to do some work for them and when Scottish Enterprise were looking for someone, this individual said, well you know, if you’re talking to people, have a chat with Manny Silverman. What happened there, I did a major recommendation, put the structure Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 60 C1046/011 Track 27 forward, brought the designer in who we were gonna build it round, a man called Alistair Blair who was the very hot designer about twelve, fifteen years ago who’d done a lot of work for the Duchess of York and was very much the in boy and I’d actually got, I got him up to Scotland, met everybody and then what the Scottish Enterprise people decided in their infinite wisdom was instead of having the money centralised they were gonna give it each to local regions so there was no longer any one major Scottish proposition to put together. Which was a great pity, because I think we could have built something. ‘Cos you see, the advantage, if you own a brand is you can control the market. If you’re merely a manufacturer, you’re at the whim of market prices, so I’m buying out of China at the moment and I’m paying seventy-nine p for that garment. I’ve got no ownership of it, I’m charging seventy-nine p for that garment. Someone opens a factory in India or Sri Lanka and they can do it for seventy-two p, you just lose it overnight, you’ve got no ownership. If you own a brand, it’s yours, you control that market. And that’s what I was trying to do for the Scottish garment industry, because it now virtually doesn’t exist at all, but if we could have built the Alistair Blair brand, we could have employed a lot of people making it.

So was that a case of your recommendations not being taken up?

Not being implemented. And an interesting case recently, almost a year ago, a certain individual who I have a great deal of respect for called me up – I’ve done three projects for these people now – called me up just after Christmas and said, I’m gonna be in London next week, can we meet? I said, fine, it’s a quiet time of the year, I’ve got one or two things. And we met at the Berkeley Hotel and I met him and we shook hands and exchanged pleasantries and he’s a fairly gruff Northerner. And he threw this bit of paper at me and he said, ‘Your recommendation eight years ago. Alright, you were right, I was wrong. What we gonna do about it now?’ Oh please, you know. He said, ‘There it is, you know, you were right, I was wrong and oh boy has it cost me money’. And I said, ‘Okay, we may still be able to do something, but it’s gonna cost you ten times more’. I don’t always get it right, no-one does. But you know, if you’re looking at it, if you’ve got a certain amount of experience, if you’re not emotionally involved, you can look at it relatively objectively and you can sit, look back and assess the aspects, you’re in with a Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 61 C1046/011 Track 27 chance of getting it reasonably right for your client. If they don’t want to listen to you because it’s not what they wanted to hear, tough titty, you know.

Using the phrase ‘emotionally involved’, has that caused problems for you in the past, would you say?

I would say I’ve touched on a part of being emotionally involved. I got involved with the ego at Hartnell. And maybe in certain instances taken my eye off the ball. Was more interested in what the press were gonna say about me rather than, you know, the actions that I should be taking. I don’t think I got it that wrong in fundamentals, but there were certain things that I allowed to be done by others, that had I been spending more time thinking about it and been more strong, put more time into it, would have fought very hard for what was done not to be done. So you know, you do, you know inevitably, get caught up in it Anna, you can’t help it. You get caught up.

Another client I wanted to ask about if I may is the, can you tell me was the Polish Enterprise thing…

Yeah that was an interesting one. That was not dissimilar to what was happening in Scotland and this was extraordinary, came through a friend of his, who’d been asked by a friend – which gives you an indication of the desperation there was in finding someone who would, let alone could do it and it was actually, it was a Spanish, major Spanish management consultancy company had been retained by the EU to do this project and couldn’t find anyone to do it. But it was just the time of the change in politics in Poland and you had these huge factories who had been guaranteed work year in and year out, suddenly it wasn’t there any more and they wanted someone to put a programme together. But they were very difficult to work with. We brought eight manufacturers over here, some of them didn’t even bother to come and didn’t even send price lists over. We showed for them at the major trade shows here, we brought model girls over, we really put the package together but there was no follow through by the individual companies themselves. It was all caught up in politics with both a large and a small ‘p’. And the Spanish company weren’t being paid. We got our fees because we were being retained by the Spanish company who guaranteed our fees, but they weren’t being paid. And it all just Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 62 C1046/011 Track 27 drizzle wizzled away, which is a great pity because you know, Eastern Europe did become, certainly countries like Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania have become fairly major manufacturers. Poland now to a lesser degree, but they missed the opportunity.

And during that time, did you have to travel to Poland?

In the winter and it was very, very, very cold. Very cold. I only had to make two trips. But it’s not a country I particularly want to go back to. What I did find particularly interesting from a sociological point of view were two entirely different groups of people. In general terms they are the thirty-fives and older, or even the forties and older and the younger ones. The thirty-fives and older tend to be rather large bodied, have German as a second nature, very resistant to anything new coming in or what have you. You then have the younger class of very fashion conscious, good figures, very open to new ideas, to new thinking, have English as a second language. Two entirely different groups of people. Found that absolutely fascinating. And it was the former generation, the older ones that were still as it were calling the shots if you like, or were in a position to block the shots.

In these cases where your recommendations haven’t been implemented, how have you felt?

Sad. But at the end of the day, it’s an ‘I told you so’. You know, you can’t get emotionally involved. You’ve given your recommendation, you’ve banked your cheque, it’s gone through. Small business, you’re talking about the things one does. I went, young man had a very interesting bed business and banks were called in, they all turned up there. He’d got a Porsche, I said, ‘Whose is the Porsche?’ He said, ‘Oh, that’s mine’. I said, ‘But you know, looking at the situation…’ ‘Oh’ he said, ‘I have to have that’ he says, ‘it gives everybody confidence in me’. ‘Oh yes’ I said, ‘your bank manager, she’s a middle manager lady, hoping one day to be promoted’, the fact that she’s a lady’s neither here nor there, but she was a very lovely helpful lady. Her job was gonna be on the line, she’d backed him to the hilt. I said, ‘When she goes home at night and she’s come here and seen you’re in even deeper trouble, she’s got her Ford parked outside, her job’s on the line, she feels terrific about your Porsche out here, she thinks it lovely. So your customers come here, they think, well he must be making a fortune if he can afford to have a Porsche parked, you’re supposed to be giving them bargains’. That went – the line which I used, I Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 63 C1046/011 Track 27 said, ‘You can get rid of that ****ing thing tomorrow’ and it went. In the space of three months, I said the other thing, ‘Give me your order book’. I tore it up. I said, ‘You have got enough stock’. ‘No, we’ve got to have fresh stock, got to have fresh stock’. Three warehouses. In the three months that I was with him, I’d closed two of the warehouses, we didn’t buy a penny piece of stock, turnover was up every week, because they knew what they bloody well had. And I said – you forget about, you’ve done so many of these things, you forget so they come back as we talk, you know. And that was a typical example. And after three months he said, ‘Thank you very much, I think we know how to do it now’. That’s fine. I’ve never even bothered to enquire whether he’s still in business or not. No, but it was so obvious what needed to be done there.

Have you ever… Let’s move on to your expert witness work. I imagine that you’re not gonna give me any names at all, but can you give me an example of say the first case that you were involved with?

The first case I got involved with was a small local retailer who was in a bit of trouble and couldn’t pay for merchandise but had agreed with a supplier to do a phased payment. The supplier accepted that and then put the bailiffs in, closed him down, locked his shop up. I did a paper on that to prove the effect that it had on his business, the fact that in a local community if that happens to you, even if you can re-open, you’re in dead trouble, you know, your reputation’s gone. I proved that for the period that he was, after that, I looked on the national statistics for menswear for that particular period and showed that his own performance was far worse, identified all that and he got damages. Another interesting one that did make the press in a big, big way – I had a Christmas card from her – a lady called Holly Martlew who has got a shop in Cheltenham called The Ballroom. And she had an exclusive – I think it was for Valentino, must be very careful, I think it was Valentino. And she woke up one day to find that Hooper’s – local departmental store – were selling it. So she rang them. She said, I thought I had, I’ve got an exclusive’. Well you know, you may have an exclusive, but we’ve sold it to them, you know. Sold it to the other store so they’re having it as well. And I always feel that they made a couple of basic mistakes. One, it was a European company, who tend to be even more chauvinistic than most in certain areas and thought well here’s a woman who’s got a little madam shop in Cheltenham, what the hell’s she gonna do anyway and where’s she gonna get the resource Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 64 C1046/011 Track 27 to fight us. Two fundamental errors. Holly Martlew is a very, very tough middle American lady, one of the world’s leading anthropologists and with a mind like a razor and whose husband happens to be a very, very successful solicitor with a very broad practice. And we did that one. That was one that, you know, was virtually a no-hoper for them. I researched it, we even found that – they claimed she didn’t have an exclusive and we found, I researched it and found and advert in Vogue, which they weren’t able to deny that they’d approved, which said exclusive stock is include, you know, there was that one. The big high profile case that I did, there was a big action five years ago between Cotton Traders, who are a company owned by Fran Cotton and Stevie Smith, both who are ex- England and British Lions captains. Between them and the Rugby Football Union and Nike. And had to write a paper on the use of the red rose in fashion, the use of the rugby shirt as a generic term of clothing, and that was an interesting one. That was a win. Recently, lost one for Lambretta. Well I didn’t lose it, the case was lost, but it was lost on a point of law, on a similar point which one that I was involved with was about six years ago, I think they’re gonna be changing the design copyright law because as the judge I believe said in this particular one, what we have here is a badly framed law but I will not go above the superior court. A high court case. So they can range – I was thinking about one today, a chap went into a National Health hospital for some minor treatment, given an overdose of drugs and had a brain haemorrhage. He was a sole trader, his business was going around buying up bits of cashmere and making them up into hats, caps and shawls and selling them to the hotels and other major top quality outlets. Drove himself around. So National Health Trust was not denying liability, but it was arguing on quantum. Well not my role to fulfil, to agree quantum, but mine was to write a report on to what effect, you know, my specific brief was to write a report on, an analysis of his business up to date, between the period of the accident happening and now and what the long-term would have been. Things like they were saying well, if he served hotels, hotels were very quiet during the period in question, well I was able to talk to one or two people I know in the major hotel business who gave my occupancy rates for these hotels at the time, which were virtually all above eighty per cent. And we just – again, my report has to be factual. Very, very pleased to say that I put my report in on the Friday morning and I had a call from the solicitors on Monday afternoon to say the other side have now seen your report and they agree to accept liability in full. But I like the intellectual challenge if you like, of looking at a situation and saying how do we find, what are the facts. I’m not saying, well I suppose Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 65 C1046/011 Track 27 the cases that I do take on are invariably to support, although my report has to be totally objective and is for the court, but I will not take on a case, if I read the case summary, I say to the solicitor, well you know, I think your client’s out of order here, I will write the report for you but I don’t want your client to have to pay me a lot of money and I’m gonna lock him up. So that’s why the reports that I write are invariably on the side of the client, not because I’m a hired gun, but I won’t do anything, I won’t write a report if I feel that I’m not going to be favourable, because I don’t think it works that way. The other thing I don’t like doing is, one of the many daft things that Lord Wolff did, was introduce, to reduce costs, single joint experts. So you’re acting as an expert witness as it were, for both parties. So you’re virtually doing the judge’s job for him. So you know you’re gonna have one happy one, one unhappy one. Doesn’t work, so that’s work I don’t do now. It covers a whole diverse – it’s interesting, the total diversity of – one of the, I don’t know if I mentioned one of the other, I did mention you know, the Rugby Union one, the use of the red rose in fashion. We found out by research, my friends in, we were talking to my friends at the V&A, that in 1926 a French designer called Poiret had a rose designed as his emblem by an industrial designer and we’ve got copies of it, which was virtually the rose design that the RFU were currently using at the time. Nothing unique about it.

Were Nike claiming that…

What had happened, it was very interesting. It expanded, what originally happened was that Cotton Traders among many other people, were selling the standard English rugby shirt, like Umbro and so many other companies. The RFU weren’t getting anything out of it, it was the classic England shirt. So what they decided to do was have someone create a unique design for them which they could register which would be the English shirt and they could change it every year, new shirt, new income stream and Cotton Traders got the contract. When they got the contract they stopped making the classic English shirt which was still on general sale. Into the term of the business, and again this is public domain, so you know, I wouldn’t put a block on it but this is as I understand it of my recollections of five or six years ago. What happened was they stopped doing the English shirt as I understood it, according to the papers and my recollection, they were then offered, or they were then bought out by Nike who took on the design of the then current English shirt, which was gonna be theirs and the design copyright that went with it. What happened then Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 66 C1046/011 Track 27 is that Cotton Traders then started to reproduce the old basic English rugby shirt again and I think that opened up a can of worms.

It sounds like you’ve always been in support of the small player – is that – no?

Not necessarily. Not necessarily. I’ve always tried to support what I think is primarily right. If I’m a lousy picker, that’s my… [laughs]

So is there an example of one you’ve done where your client has been the more powerful of the two, shall we say?

I can think of one or two, I can’t think of one or two but I know there have been. I know there have been. What was, always coming back to marketing, but it applies to so many other things, something that Voltaire said, you know, ‘God is not on the side the big battalions, he’s on the side of the best shots’. But I’ve always said that what he didn’t add was the rider, but if you’ve got a big battalion of best shots, doesn’t half give you one heck of an advantage.

Indeed. So have you had to stand up in court?

Oh yes.

And what’s that been like?

Interesting. Because that’s the moment of truth, because you’ve got some very highly paid, highly able barrister who’s going to prove to the court that you are a rogue, a knave, a liar, a charlatan and he’s gonna tear you to pieces. So you’ve got to get your report, if you don’t get your report as right as you know how and if you can’t substantiate your opinion, you are gonna be torn apart.

Have you had, well what’s been your experience, specifically?

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There have been times when it’s been tough. But you’ve just got to take a deep breath and just go through it. But in the main, you learn through experience. You know, the first thing that counsel will generally try and do is say, ‘Now Mr Silverman’, this is for the other side, ‘You’re a man of enormous experience, you’ve been in this industry many, many times, but can you honestly say that this particular area is your field of speciality and experience?’ Had this some years back in a handbag case that I was involved with and I said, ‘Yes, in point of fact we were heavily involved in Moss’s in leather goods’. I had recently a handbag case and counsel said, well you know, ‘Your background isn’t handbags and I take it you don’t use them’. And I said, ‘No, you happen to be quite right, I don’t even use men’s handbags. But I have been involved in a major action in an international tribunal which involved handbags’. I said, ‘But I have given evidence in lady’s underwear’, I went through a whole range of things. I said, ‘None of which I use, none of which I have direct experience of, but in which my evidence in court has been accepted’. And gradually you build those little ones up because you know, you can up to a point anticipate some of the opening thrust. The first thing is if they can discredit your evidence before they start. And what I always do and, when they say that, I just look at the judge and say you know, ‘If I may m’lord’, or ‘If I may ma’am’ if it’s a lady, ‘If I may’, ‘Yes of course, Mr Silverman’. And that’s when I say… [laughs]

What’s your manner in court. How d’you carry yourself?

Nice, pleasant, amiable, happy little chappie.

Is there an element of acting?

I think there is in all things. I think, you know, you have to be sure you appear confident, without being cocky. It’s getting that right balance. But present, let’s call it, let’s call it presentation of the facts rather than acting. [laughs]

Do you find currently that you promote yourself, your own services or do people, do clients come to you?

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Now people, I’m on the register of expert witnesses, so people looking for someone will look at my profile, my CV and maybe come to me. I don’t actively promote myself as such, but I’m around quite a bit, I’m involved with a number of industry things, so people know who I am and what I am and if there’s a need, you know, as I say, it comes back to how does it all start. It comes back to – I think we may have talked about this before – the Sammy Cahn, the American songwriter, you know, what comes first, the words or the music? Neither, first comes a telephone call. Had a call while I was with my client yesterday which I couldn’t take. Someone’s got a large amount of clothing that they need a valuation on for insurance purpose, can I do that? I’ll talk to them about it, my name’s been given to them by someone. So you know. A lot of people that I talk to, they decide to use someone else. I can’t blame them, in many cases I would do the same. [laughs]

Back to your clients where you’ve been recommending business strategies and so on, one of them I saw was Miller Freeman plc, can you tell me what was the involvement…

That was a major group, which was subsequently sold on to – oh, I can’t remember now, but it was sold on to one of the very, very big groups. And I was working with them, they were doing fashion, the two major fashion exhibitions, trade exhibitions in the UK, Premier Collections. And I was working with them. One, in terms of bringing designers in to give that sort of cachet to the overall business and two, I ran a programme where I was visiting clients, visitors rather than manufacturers who’d got clothes to sell, I sort of had a programme where I was visiting retailers in different areas of the country to get their feedback, visitors who’d been to the show, what they liked, what they didn’t like. But the people that bought them had their own team. It was EMAP that bought them.

And the Panther Group, another one?

That, Panther Group was the, what I was talking about, the Ely’s. Panther Group was Ely’s.

Right. Why did that bid fail?

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Because the other people offered more and quite frankly, Panther really were, they weren’t retailers, they were probably developers but someone had offered the Chairman this piece of equity and he took a punt on it, and more than doubled his money. But as I say, pleased to say now, although I say it myself, if anyone wants to research it in the press it’s there to be found somewhere. The bid really got a, you know, the bid got a degree of authority about it once I became involved with it. I should have agreed my terms before rather than, but again, you don’t do it, you don’t do it. No point in whinging and whining about it. You think about it from time to time of course you do, but you know, no point in getting morose and upset about it.

And as regards other industry and involvement on your part, various committees, British Fashion Council?

I’ve sat on the British Fashion Council for a number of years. That came about when I had Hartnell and I served on it four or five years after Hartnell, but eventually new people came along and I had no direct business input and had done my time so we moved on. I still stood on the Colleges Forum, which sort of supports the colleges and various fashion colleges, I’m involved with that. And the other, of course there are the business councils that I’ve been involved with, which is the Philippines British Business Council and the Singapore British Business Council, which is where I’ve been working on establishing bilateral relationships and opportunities, you know, on a two-way basis. Very interesting one we’ve recently had, the Singapore British Business Council plenary session over here, which we were hosted by the University of York, but we had a request from Singapore, from the Singapore Economic Development Board, if we could do something, did we have anything we could put on a session on technical textiles, which I’d not come across before. But incredible, the breadth there is of experience, we’ve even got about over a thousand companies I think in this country, involved in technical textiles. You know, this is it, so suddenly I’m not writing to [inaudible] saying okay, you’ve had your session on technical textiles, now presumably you asked for it for a reason, now how are we gonna develop it? Now we have a UK trade and investment technical promoter, so I’ve already been speaking, I got him to come along and speak. I got other people to come along and speak at the session.

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Who’s the promoter?

UKTI, which is the body that I work for, which is the, it’s a DTI body that is, you know, for the promotion of UK business. So you know, so we’re doing things of that nature.

Could you tell me about travel? I mean does that mean that you have to travel to Singapore and Philippines?

Last year quite extensively and to the Philippines. Last year was a particularly busy one, there’ll be nothing like it again, because over a period of one month I was keynote speaker at the Singapore Retailers’ Association at their annual conference, with seven hundred people there and then three weeks later we had the plenary session, because they take alternate years. So I was back and forth to Singapore twice in the space of a month. That’s no longer ever gonna be the case. I think travel is going to be severely curtailed now because I think budgets are being cut back on all these things and while I’m more than happy to give of my time, my experience and what little energies I’ve got left, I’m not in a position, I’m not supported by a big business that can pay my expenses. I mean to say, our Chairman of the Singapore British Business Council is Sir Mark Moody-Stuart, he was Chairman of Shell, he’s now Chairman of Anglo-American, one of the world’s largest mining companies, a director of HSBC. You know, those companies can absorb his cost for doing that, the sort of travel, I can’t. You know, I’m happy to pay my taxes because I’ve got no option and they would more than cover my expenses, but the taxman won’t see it that way. So you know, but it doesn’t mean to say I can’t continue working at arm’s- length. I stay in regular contact with our Embassy, certainly with the commercial sections of our Embassy in the Philippines and our High Commission in Singapore, you know, I’ll be having a meeting with Michael Cheng, I think it’s with Michael Cheng, got the name right, who’s the Singapore High Commissioner in London, to talk about how we can work to do things together. And our High Commissioner was also over for the plenary session, and his deputy. We’ve got our senior commercial officer coming over in January, I’ll be meeting with her. So we maintain the connections and any calls that they get they think I might be able to help with, they’ll sort of e-mail me or give me a call and we’ll pursue it this end.

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You mentioned e-mail. How do you maintain contact, do you, what’s the extent of your business empire? [laughs]

The extent of my business empire, I think sort of, it would be lost even in the Isle of Wight, let alone the Isle of Man. No, people stay in contact through the e-mail. I swear, curse at the bloody thing and Jeremy just comes into the room and just says, ‘Okay, leave it with me’ and sorts it all out. I’ve got one to go out later today to do with this technical textiles, copies have got to go to nine or ten people. There’s no way I’d even begin to start that. As I say, Jeremy works closely with me on that, so he gets that, he’ll sort that for me.

Is Jeremy the only person that works with you in that sense?

On a general, on an ongoing basis, yeah. But if, I’ve got a large pool of people who I know, who I can call on who’ve got specific skills that I don’t necessarily have, who I can call on. I mean to say, a very good friend of mine who I’m lunching with tomorrow, she’s very, very able. She was my project manager for the Polish operation and we stay in touch. She’s asked me to do a few things for her. It’s a loose association that works. I certainly can’t and wouldn’t want to have the fixed overhead of a team of people. I don’t have that sort of a business.

Talking about travel though, in a broader sense, in a personal sense, where do you go, what travel do you enjoy these days?

I suppose I really prefer the shorter, the shorter journeys and the shorter trips. As I say, this last, in this last year we have been to Portugal, to Lithuania and to Capri. An interesting mix of countries. We’d like to have gone to Paris, but with all that was going on a few weeks ago, you know, no point in getting caught up unnecessarily. Not the best traveller in the world, I get jetlag going up on a one two five to Birmingham, let alone getting the Pendolino now up to Leeds at a hundred – whoof, that gives me jetlag. [laughs] But you know, as we wind up this part of my life, and I hope there’s more to go and we can do the next twenty years sometime, God willing, you know, looking back on it, there’s been good times, there’s been not such good times. Not necessarily bad times, but not such good times. But you know, somehow it’s all worked out, not necessarily for the best, Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 72 C1046/011 Track 27 but worked out reasonably well, you know, as much as one could hope for. We live happily, we live content.

You’ve passed retirement age…

Oh well and truly.

And yet you haven’t retired.

I don’t have a regular job. That’s retirement. But I’d sooner be doing what I’m doing than playing bowls. Because I tried bowls many years ago, I was no good at that. What I do now is a hobby and if I get paid for it, which I do, apart from the DTI work that I do, so much the better, it’s always useful, it pays for the extra holiday here and there. I object to having to pay the taxman a large part of it, ‘cos it’s all on the top of everything else, but okay, either you do it or you don’t. But I’m delighted and thank the Lord that I do, you know, that I’m still kept reasonably busy and active. What the next year holds, none of us know.

That was going to be my next question. Have you any idea what you will be doing in the New Year?

None whatsoever. There’s a telephone inside, that will decide. I am not really – the only thing I’m proactive on is being in a couple or three expert witness directories, but that’s the extent to which I’m proactive. Sure, I go along to various traders’ functions and am involved with that, but I’m not there giving cards out. If someone asks me for a card, I’ll give it. I’ll stay in touch with people.

I think I’ve thought of a final question, you mentioned that you were involved with the colleges’ steering committee and I was wondering how you feel about a new generation, the next generation of people coming into the fashion industry, passing your knowledge on?

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My knowledge as such is, I’ve got experience rather than specific knowledge. I couldn’t set up a course as a lecturer, but – and I do get calls from time to time, people that want to just have a chat – always happy to talk to people about their businesses, about their aspirations. I‘ve spoken as I say, at major retail conferences, I’ve spoken at one or two small groups. I’m there if people want me. If people think I’ve got anything worth saying and are daft enough to put time into hearing it, they’re welcome to hear it. But I’m happier answering questions rather than sort of giving a dissertation on this is how you go about things. I would be far sooner – I suppose I’m happier dealing with a situation and being asked a question is dealing with a specific situation rather than talking abstract. Which is why when I give a paper to a major group I find a specific theme and talk to that.

Finally, as we wrap up, what would you like to say as a sort of closing statement?

Well, as a closing statement for this particular, you know, one hopes there will be more to say some time in the future. I suppose, looking back, I have been blessed in many ways with opportunity and as I’ve, you know, got older I’ve been more prepared to see opportunity, I’ve made mistakes, but if you’ve made a mistake, don’t live with your mistakes, learn the lesson from the mistake but then look, go forward. I think, you know, one of the things that Darwin said, it may not be particularly relevant as a closer on this, but when I talk to people about their businesses I say remember what Darwin said, and I can’t paraphrase it exactly, but he said, it wasn’t the strongest of the species that survived, it wasn’t the most intelligent of species that survived, it was the species that was best able to adapt.

Very good. Thank you very much indeed.

Not at all. Can I give you a drink before you go or something.

Yes.

You’re gonna be getting on the train and you know…

I will have a drink before I go. Manny Silverman DRAFT 1 Page 74 C1046/011 Track 27

What would you like, would you like some tea, coffee, water?

Coffee.

How do you like your coffee?

Black.

Black, okay. Black coffee you shall have. I won’t join you in coffee, I’ll have something else and I’ll bring some bits of press down for you to take away…

Thank you so much.

…if you want to. Have you got a bag to – oh, you’ve got your bag to put them in, okay.

Yeah.

And if I find anything else that might be – I couldn’t find a picture of myself with a topless model in the Daily Mail, but if I do find – or the Daily Sketch, what is it – if it is, I’ll get that to you as well.

Thank you.

[End of Track 27]

[End of recording]