WIU Oral Histories Program - Warren L. Van Dine

Interviewee: Warren Lovel Van Dine Birth: 25 Nov 1902 Death: 25 Sep 1983 Date of Recording: 20 Jul 1979 Age at Recording: 76 years old Interviewer: Dr. John E. Hallwas Description: Warren Lovel Van Dine was born on November 25, 1902 in Fountain Green Township, Illinois. He was born on his grandfather's farm in the same bedroom that his mother, Flora Ellen Salisbury, was born. Warren Van Dine grew up in Burnside, Illinois in the house built by his father, Herbert R. Van Dine. After graduating from the State University of Iowa (the University of Iowa) in 1924 with a B.A. from the Liberal Arts College, Van Dine devoted himself to the Mormon Church and to the Sons of the American Revolution. He also worked as an editor for two poetry journals; Much Ado in the early 1930's and Upward in the late 1930's. Unchanging Gold, a book of poems by Van Dine, was published in 1938. Van Dine authored several short stories and newspaper articles. He also wrote extensively about unusual weather in Hancock County, Illinois and about Hancock County history. For a large part of his life Van Dine was a member of the Revolutionary Graves Registry Committee and compiled lists of grave markers in county cemeteries for use by historians and genealogists. Van Dine lived and wrote in Burnside, Illinois and Hamilton, Illinois until his death on September 25, 1983 at the age of 80 years old.1 Original Media: Audio cassette Length: 1:03:40 Note: Mr. Van Dine stammers occasionally, adds "and" to the end of most sentences, and in some places these and extra half-words have been removed from the otherwise verbatim transcription.

Hallwas: This tape contains an interview with Warren L. Van Dine of Carthage, Illinois. It was made on July twentieth, nineteen seventy-nine [July 20, 1979]. Mister Van Dine has lived in Hancock County all of his life, mostly in Burnside. He is now seventy-six years old. On the tape, Mister Van Dine discusses Alice Kibbe, his own life in Hancock County, his association with James Decker, his studies of Joseph Smith, his local weather records project and cemetery project, Judge Scofield, Senator Sidney Little and Joseph Smith's legal counselors, author Rowena Califf from Carthage, and Joseph Smith's contacts with John C. Calhoun.

[tape cuts, restarts mid-conversation; 00:44]

1 University of Iowa Special Collections. Van Dine: Nineteen fifty-nine [1959], twenty years ago, and I was walking around the square, or going to go to a store. I got out of my automobile, and a car stopped and parked right in front of me, where I was walking, and the driver got out fast. It was a lady, and [she] motioned for me to come over there, and it was Doctor Kibbe, and introduced herself. I never talked to her before. I'd just heard of her, of course. And she said, "We have in [coughs] in the museum," which at that time, it was- you know, she started a museum in nineteen twenty [1920]. Had [inaudible] Carthage College Campus, where she was teaching. And she said, "We have the weather record, of Doctor Mead2, in Augusta," He kept the United States Government in this area, for I believe fifty-two [52] years, from about eighteen twenty-eight to eighteen eighty- two, six [1828-1882, 6], something like that. Well they still have a weather man here in this county, and it [inaudible] little town south of Carthage. And she said, "We have the entire file of his work, and I understand you're carrying on a weather history project," and I told her I was. At the- at the present time, just a [inaudible] years later, there's about three thousand accounts in my weather project. She said to, to "come on out to the college, and I'll set up a table for you in the biology building," And says, " I use the old uh, former, uh, oh, field house, now that they built a new one, for- to play basketball in, for my biology department, and also for another thing, the museum. And you can just set up a table there in the museum part, and- and work day after day taking notes on Doctor Mead's uh, weather material." I went up there and took notes for several days. Well, she was a very fine person. Fine to cooperate. And we have here in the museum where I'm talking now, a picture of Doctor Mead, and a picture also of his home, and- and we have all the weather records that I looked at those days- that day. It was stored away upstairs and it's in oh, one of the rooms upstairs there. In the uh, back, upstairs here in the Kibbe museum. But those records are still in existence. I've talked some with Mayor Hu- Lee Huston about turning them over to the government, and we decided they'd probably just throw them away and need the space for something else, so we keep them here at the museum. Then- [stammers] I can't- I can't recall talking with Doctor Kibbe very much more after that. Of course I live out in Burnside, or did at that time, and- and then, I was- went to school at the University of Iowa, so I was not back in Carthage for Alumni work or anything-

Hallwas: Yeah- uh, Missus uh, Kibbe-

Van Dine: Oh, Mi- Mi- Miss Kibbe.

Hallwas: Miss Kibbe.

Van Dine: Yeah.

Hallwas: She uh, gave this home to the museum, why? Or, as a museum, why?

2 Dr. Samuel Barnum Mead (1799-1880) was the second regular physician to practice in Hancock County, after arriving in Illinois in 1833. He was also a noted botanist with a world-wide reputation. He was a meteorologist for the Smithsonian from 1849-1873, perhaps longer, under Joseph Henry's meteorological program.

Van Dine: Well uh, I'll explain first how the Miss Kibbe museum3 is located, and is now advertised by the city as a fifteen room frame mansion. Only thirteen rooms when she owned it. And it was the city or, maybe she did just before she gave it to it, built on the east room, for placing big things like pianos. And her garage on the north side was turned into a room for her- animal room, animal display. The house was built in eight sixty-nine [1869], a hundred and uh, ten [110] years ago. Well it was- it was a mansion in those days, and it's still a first class house. And then a family named Harnest family H-A-R-N-E-S-T lived in it from eighteen sixty-nine til nineteen thirty-five [1869-1935].4 Well when the last member of the family lived here, a- a Missus Wright, who married uh- Palestine Wright,5 a promising school teacher of that period,6 and sold the house to Doctor Kibbe. And she left part of the old furniture there, or [inaudible, possibly: there are other public] in the house. This chair in which I'm sitting is one of the pieces of the furniture that went with the house [when he] sold it to Doctor Kibbe. And the, Doctor Kibbe then uh, used this as her residence until she gave it to the city in nineteen sixty-four [1964].

[05:00]

And when the Carthage College moved to Kenosha, Wisconsin, the college decided that they needed all their floor space up there for other things, and the exhibits here came from Illinois holes, [the animals in the exhibits lived in Illinois] and so Doctor Kibbe got the museum. People today can't figure out why Carthage College ever set up a museum. Didn't seem to be a part of their course of studies. I used to do railroading. Remember that song about the fellow working on the railroad, just to pass the time away?7 I guess that's the way- the reason they were in the museum business, maybe.

Hallwas: [laughs]

Van Dine: To pass the time away.

Hallwas: I- I notice that uh, Doctor Kibbe also, um, gave some lands along the Mississippi to Western Illinois University.

3 The Kibbe Museum is located at 306 Walnut St., Carthage, Illinois. 4 Likely widow Anna (Spitler) Harnest (1809-1896) and her remaining living children Daniel S., Samuel E., (1835- 1928), and Mary Jane Harnest (1840-1880) 5 Palestine Wright (1840-1880) 6 Mary Jane (Harnest) Wright (1840-1917) 7 "I've Been Working on the Railroad" is an American folk song. The first published version appeared as "Levee Song" in Carmina Princetonia, a book of Princeton University songs published in 1894. Van Dine: Well that's uh, I be- I believe they call that the Eagle Preserve now, along the river between Warsaw and Hamilton.8 Our- our county of course is the- fronts on the upper Mississippi river. It fronts on two states. The top part of our county faces Iowa across the river and the bottom part face- faces Missouri. The eagles are- government- American people are afraid they will become extinct. And they set aside this place where they could live, you know.

Hallwas: I wonder why she didn't give the uh, preserve that's now used for watching eagles and biological studies at WIU, why she didn't give it to Carthage College?

Van Dine: Well, Carthage College was simply not the school that WIU is. Operated by the Lutheran Church, and I know in some years back, when Judge Arthur Baird, county judge here twenty years, was all big-ten tackle on the University of- Northwestern9 football team. And then he got back here, they asked him to coach the Carthage College team. And he- he said he'd do it after working hours, and so that fall we bombed every game and were defeated about forty to nothing [40-0]. People said, "Well for Heaven's sake, couldn't you have made a better record than that?" and he said, "Well in a school of one hundred and twenty-nine [129] students, and three-fourths of them are women, you don't have much of a football team."

Hallwas: Yeah!

Van Dine: And well, that's the way Carthage College [inaudible]. I remember hearing Virgil Hancher10, the president of the University of Iowa, the greatest president we've ever had, gave a commencement talk there, [and he] called Carthage College a distinguished institution. It is distinguished, but it is distinguished more in the field of Christian faith. Some of the early ministers of Carthage College, Lutheran ministers, were men of deep piety and faith. And it just seem- seemed like it had been more outstanding in that than it had in scientific research. They haven't had the resources to go in for research in a big way. It's a- up the turn of the century- well first, if you wanted a real education, you had to go to Europe, either Germany or England, where their universities were research centers. And here in this town we just taught people how to be ladies and gentlemen. We gave them a little mathematics, a little English and that. All the American universities began modernizing, and University of Illinois, at least twenty, thirty years before Iowa did. And oh, some of these smaller colleges like Carthage College didn't have the student body and didn't have the financial means to modernize, become a research center like the great universities in this nation have become at the present time. Oh it's the- the

8 The Alice L. Kibbe Life Science Research Station is comprised of 115 acres of land in Hancock County, Illinois, donated by Dr. Alice Kibbe to Western Illinois University in 1964, together with an additional 222 acres of adjacent land purchased by WIU. The Illinois Department of Natural Resources owns 1458 adjacent acres, and the total 1680 acres comprise the Kibbe Macro Site, which is a major wintering site for one of the largest concentrations of bald eagles in North America. 9 Judge James Arthur Baird (1877-1964) attended Northwestern University School of Law and played football from 1900 to 1902. Later, he served as the Carthage College football coach from 1908-1915. 10 Virgil Melvin Hancher served as university president from 1940-1964. people operating Carthage College did the best they could with what means they had available. But that's the reason she didn't give much to Carthage College in the way of written material. Talking of Doctor Kibbe, she got her d- got her doctorate at Cornell University in the East.11 You remember this? "Hail to Thee Cornell, high above Cayuga Waters"12? We have uh, new copies of that, here in the library, that have never been taken out of the wrapping paper, and two whole volumes, her thesis was, for her doctorate. It's almost unbelievable, the amount of information that she had. She was listed among the great scientists of this nation, but because Carthage is a small town, or [stammers] [she was] more safe than she would be in bigger cities, where they have a great deal of crime. She didn't have a hard time teaching here, but she didn't have to teach at Carthage College; she could have just raised her hand and got a job anywhere in the nation, in the teaching of biology. Oh-

Hallwas: You were- were you raised in town? In Carthage?

Van Dine: No, I was uh, born in this county, born in Fountain Green Township, about ten miles east of here. That was the Lincoln country, and there were part of the- Lincoln's uncle lived, and first cousins. And then they uh- my- my father was also- well I'm descended from- two of my four grandparents were four of the early pioneer families in the Fountain Green Township. My father13 and mother14 married, and my- my mother at that time was a grade school teacher, teaching in schools in that area in the east part of the county, and- and- Father was a railroad worker.

[10:00]

He [stammers] in the meanwhile [inaudible], moved across the river. They were living in Montrose, Iowa. Oh, after their marriage she talked him into coming over to this side of the river. Let's see. They say she was- he was a railroad worker, and she talked him into dropping railroading, because it was a- a dirty occupation, and there was all kinds of wicked people and everything. He went into the construction business and became a building contractor. He built four churches in his time, and one grain elevator, and houses all over the top part of the county. I was raised in the county, but not in Carthage, but I lived here briefly for three times in my life. I watched my parents move here and stayed about six months when I was four years old. And then my father took me by the hand, and took me up the west walk to the courthouse on the square, and inside the building, and we stood out in the center of the lev- ground level floor. The roof was not yet on the dome of the courthouse. We could see the sky up above it.

11 Dr. Kibbe graduated from Washington State Normal School in 1905, the University of Washington in 1910 with A.B., again in 1914 with M.A., and then from Cornell University in 1920 with M.S. and again in 1926 with Ph.D. 12 The first stanza of Cornell University's alma mater reads, "Far above Cayuga's waters, with its waves of blue, Stands our noble Alma Mater, glorious to view." 13 Herbert Rand Van Dine (1875-1941). 14 Flora Ellen Salisbury (1877-1920). That was summer of nineteen eight. [1908]15 And later on I came to Carthage and stayed at rooming houses four years and went to Carthage High School, and now I'm in Carthage a third time [stammers] a [inaudible] worker in the Kibbe Museum, and I knew as old as I was, I couldn't drive to Burnside where I lived, nine miles where my home is, in zero weather, and my car's broken down. My- my parents lived at first in Adrian, Illinois16, in Rock Creek Township, and a businessman at Burnside talked Father into moving over to Burnside, in Pilot Grove Township, and at that time, nineteen twelve [1912], he built a house for himself. I bought the house from his estate after he died. I have a home in Burnside with about a thousand books in it, and things like that. I- I never have [stammers] I was not born and raised in Carthage, but [inaudible] here.

Hallwas: Uh, did you spend uh, your career uh, doing newspaper work, mostly?

Van Dine: [overlapping] No.

Hallwas: I- I- I thought I saw a bunch of newspapers mentioned under your photograph, there, in your- in your book.

Van Dine: Well, let's see. That was- you mean that photo- nineteen fifty-nine [1959] photograph?

Hallwas: In the um-

Van Dine: [overlapping] Oh, that- that's papers in which the picture has appeared.

Hallwas: Oh, I see.

Van Dine: Yeah.

Hallwas: I see. I thought you were-

Van Dine: [overlapping] I- I worked at the- seven money-making occupations. I worked at railroading a number of years, and Santa Fe I followed my father being a railroad man, and then- and then I worked in the rubber industry a number of years, and- and then hydraulic

15 Van Dine was born November 25, 1902, and the third Hancock County courthouse was built between 1907-1908, and dedicated on October 21, 1908. 16 Adrian, Illinois lies eight miles north of Carthage, and five miles west of Burnside. It was founded in the early 1870s. presses. Our [military] men who went to the bottom of the ocean in that- Battle of Midway in nineteen forty-three [1943]17 went down wearing rubber heels that I made for them.

[Both chuckle]

And then I worked in the combine harvester industry for a stretch, and uh- wherever men harvested wheat on the face of God's earth we turned up and [inaudible] to do the job. And I worked at house painting a number of years, so I've worked at the, oh, regular occupations sort of like Peter was in the Bible. He was a construction man, and a carpenter. Had a minister too [inaudible] like the way I've been. Course this is a white collar job, here at Kibbe Museum.

Hallwas: Yeah.

Van Dine: They put me on the staff here because I wrote four chapters in a nineteen sixty-eight [1968] county history,18 and I've also written a section in this new book that came out last Friday with the Historical Society.19 They figured I would know, maybe, quite a lot about the history of the county. Which I do. I've had one project worked on for twenty-five years now, collecting history of unusual weather in a hundred fifty [150] years of white settlements here. I filed to maintain the old capitol building in Springfield, and the history of it and [the] Carthage poorhouse, and various places. And I worked in the cemetery probably for almost fifteen years, so I can list the dead buried in the cemeteries of Hancock County. [inaudible] places public [inaudible] the American people. One in the old capitol building of Springfield, another one in the mountains out in Utah, where even an atomic blast couldn't get at them. Different places. Several libraries. I've engaged in historical research for a lifetime. In fact, I could have majored in History at Iowa, just needed three more hours, but I went in for creative writing to major in English. In those days, there was just one kind of an English major at Iowa, but now there's three or four kinds. One for people who want to teach English, and one for people who want to uh, do creative writing and so forth, and- but there's- [pause]

Hallwas: What uh- what uh, got you started writing poetry?

Van Dine: Oh, I- it- it- it's been- oh, been so long ago now that I've started about the time I was a freshman at Carthage High School, publishing in the newspaper, one thing [or] another. So when I was a- oh, spent my entire life in my san- engage in- at Iowa I took studies in four fields. In English and history and political science, and religion. And that- of course I-

17 Battle of Midway, (June 3–6, 1942), World War II naval battle, fought almost entirely with aircraft, in which the United States destroyed Japan’s first-line carrier strength and most of its best-trained naval pilots. Together with the Battle of Guadalcanal, the Battle of Midway ended the threat of further Japanese invasion in the Pacific. 18 History of Hancock County, Illinois. Carthage, Ill: Board of Supervisors of Hancock County, 1968. Print. 19 Historic Sites and Structures of Hancock County, Illinois. Carthage, Ill: Society and the Hancock County Bicentennial Commission, 1979. Print.

Hallwas: You wrote poetry in college, then.

[15:00]

Van Dine: Yes, I was a- [stammers] At that time, Professor John T. Frederick,20 uh, who op- operated The Midland,21 was uh, faculty [at the] University of Iowa, and [coughs] And Frank Luther Mott who was a- won the Pulitzer Prizewinner in nineteen thirty-one [1931] [he actually won the award in 1939],22 and had faculty members like that, and had people in class with me like Paul Frederick Corey,23 who was known in America for novel writing, and like that. Mother wanted me to go to a small college that she attended. And they- It was a nice place for her to go with- she wanted to- was going to just sweep floors all her life, but the school wasn't even accredited. Just a junior college, and she died about a month before I graduated from Carthage High School. The minute she died, why I threw the catalogs from this little school in the trash can, and headed to the University of Iowa where I could get something to be more suited to my needs. But this isn't saying anything derogatory about the small schools. They have their place in American life. But they didn't have much of a place for me.

Hallwas: Does most of the poetry that uh, is included in uh, your book The Golden Years, Immortalized in Verse,24 was that written during the college uh, period?

Van Dine: [overlapping] That was all written back there in the- in the- [stammers] in the mid nineteen twenties [1920s] [stammers] written during my college years and others afterwards. I believe the latest one was written in nineteen thirty-five [1935]. [clears throat] Seemed like the stimulation of being around people like the Professor Frederick and Doctor Frederick and Doctor Mott, had a great deal to do to get me interested in creative writing.

Hallwas: How did you happen to um, publish the book at the uh, James Decker press?25

20 John Towner Frederick (1893-1975) was a famous author, as well as founder and editor of The Midland. Frederick joined the faculty at University of Iowa and eventually encouraged the English department to hire Frank Luther Mott, who became coeditor of The Midland. Frederick also taught at Northwestern and Notre Dame, was the regional director of the Works Progress Administration Writer's Project, and hosted a CBS radio program called Of Men and Books. 21 A magazine published from 1915-1933 which featured short stories and poetry. 22 Frank Luther Mott (1886-1964) won the Pulitzer Prize in 1939 for the best book of the year upon the history of the United States, a prize of $1,000. His publication was a five volume series entitled, A History of American Magazines, published by Harvard University Press. He won the Pulitzer for volumes two and three. 23 Paul Frederick Corey (1903-1992) was an acclaimed author and in 1947 was named one of 99 outstanding living alumni of the State University of Iowa. 24 This book has been referenced by this name, as well as Unchanging Gold and The Ship of Gold. 25 The Decker Press was a publishing company once located in the small mid-western town of Prairie City, Illinois. This small press received national attention in the 1940's, when it published works written by noted authors such as Edgar Lee Masters, August Derleth, Hubert Creekmore, William Everson (Brother Antoninus), David Ignatow, Kenneth Patchen, Kenneth Rexroth and Louis Zukofsky.

Van Dine: Well, that was the first book that Mister Decker published, and he uh, oh, he was a cousin, or a relative of Arthur Decker, a superintendent of schools here in Carthage. He [James A. Decker] and his parents lived in Prairie City, I believe it is. Is that over in Adams County or Schuyler?

Hallwas: It's in uh, McDonough.

Van Dine: Yeah. [clears throat] That's all- and then he [inaudible] put on a program called, I believe, Treasure Is Green or something like that, and read in verse on the Carthage radio, a fifteen minute program. Half the people would send in verse that they thought would be nice for that program. And so the people here in Carthage told him about me, and he contacted me, and he said, "Don't expect a very elderly man." He was oh, about twenty-one, something like that. So we finally decided that he would- he would publish my- my book of verse. And after doing that, he set up what's called the Decker Press, and operated for around twelve years. Started in nineteen thirty-eight [1938] and put my book of verse out first. The last reference I can find to it was nineteen fifty [1950] but it may have gone on longer than that.26 [clears throat] Just to mention Decker got started [inaudible] received a postcard from the president of the United States that said greetings from the president to report to the draft board on a certain day. You report, you know what that meant, in World War Two. They shipped that fellow over to some godforsaken place at the ends of the earth, and kept him five or six years. When he got back, he tried to resume his work as a publisher, but [stammers] it seemed like he was unable to get any of the poetry interested like it did have him interested previous to that time. [coughs] The last poet I can recall him publishing was Ru- Ruth Lechlitner,27 who was married to Paul Corey the novelist there with the Iowa students. And then, let's see [stammers] something else I was going to say, slipped my mind, now. Well the Decker Press was taken over by Exposition Press. I had a letter from Mister oh, Decker just two or three years ago. He was at that time in the Kansas City area, working in a publishing house. I believe it was called the Unity Publishing House.28 It promotes the faith, the Christian faith, of some church or something. I presume just a job for him, or maybe he was one of the workers in that church, I don't know. [stammers] Yes sir, James Decker was a very fine man. I enjoyed my years that I knew him.

Hallwas: Did he advertise the uh, Decker Press books in local newspapers, or how did he promote them?

26 Decker sold his press to Harry Denman and then Ervin Tax. Decker and his sister Dorothy stayed on to help, but due to poor relations between Decker and Tax, Decker left Prairie City. However, Dorothy remained and her feelings for Tax grew but were not reciprocated. The publishing business of the Decker Press came to a sudden end in 1950 when Dorothy Decker shot Ervin Tax to death and then killed herself. 27 Lechlitner, Ruth. Only the Years: Selected Poems 1938-1944. 1944. 28 The Unity church is a New Thought Christian organization founded in 1889. The original intent was to publish a magazine, but the magazine led to spiritual classes, which led to a seminary, and now study groups worldwide. Van Dine: [overlapping] I don't know that he'd advertise them around here or not, but the- as far as I know he did not publish any first rank poets, like Arthur Baldwin29 at least would kind of be at, you know at, but he published a number of prominent poets, like Witter Bynner who lived in Santa Fe, New Mexico.30 And during the time that- they said he had to go to the army before he got started to do it, and had the war not happened at that time, why he might have gone the whole way of the publisher, been one of the great publishers of American history.

[20:06]

But- but- but books are promoted rather than written. Some- some fine works, American people never hear about them because there's no way they can find out about them. And other books, they have publishers who advertise them all over the nation. Like uh, some of them in previous times, [inaudible] this fellow. Maybe there were other men who could write just as good poetry, but they didn't have anyone promote their books. But Mister Decker was [inaudible] publisher a promoter of [stammers] fine poetry.

Hallwas: Did you ever see his print shop, or printing press, or did you ever go to Prairie City to see the setup?

Van Dine: [overlapping] I never did see it there. I suppose later he may have just hired some regular printing company, for printing. I doubt if he operated that any more than just my first book. Let's see, I believe for expenses I sent them a fifty dollar bill by courier. And I gave a copy of the book- had two or three hundred copies run off, some uh- mostly to libraries. The copy you're looking at there was- has been in uh, two museums, and is now in the Hancock County Historical Society collection of books on the third floor of the courthouse in Carthage.

Hallwas: Uh, you mentioned too that uh, you uh, wrote a short story for The Midland. Magazine.

Van Dine: [overlapping] Yeah-

Hallwas: [overlapping] What- what year was that [inaudible]

Van Dine: [overlapping] Oh, [inaudible] short story the nineteen- [stammers] It was published in the January nineteen twenty-four [1924] issue of [The] Midland. It surprised me when I

29 Possibly referring to James Arthur Baldwin (1924-1987), an American novelist, essayist, playwright, poet, and social critic. 30 Harold Witter Bynner (1881-1968), also known by the pen name Emanuel Morgan, was an American poet, writer, and scholar, known for his long residence in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and association with other literary figures there. There is no evidence any of his works were published by Decker Press. received a letter later on, that [stammers] Edward O'Brien wanted to put it in the Best Short Stories of nineteen twenty-four. [1924]31

Hallwas: What was the title of the story?

Van Dine: It's ah, believe I called it The Poet, and it was a- it's supposed to uh, well- It landed first place at the Best Short Stories that featured art rather than entertainment. It was supposed to be an outstanding story from a standpoint of first person characterization. Mister O'Brien was a New England poet. And about nineteen forty [1940] he died, and then the publishing house that handled his books, I believe it was in Boston, got a new person to replace him. A person who was a lady, [by the] name of Foley, Martha Foley, changed the name to the Foley Collection. But she explained to me, the introduction to some of her volumes, the nineteen seventy [1970] volume, for instance, that the collection was founded in nineteen fifteen [1915], by Edgar- Edward J. O'Brien.32 She was simply taking over. Of course the two of them have operated it after- ever since nineteen fifteen [1915], but still they operated it [inaudible] is.

Hallwas: Um, in your researches around the- the area, into the- the history of the county, you've uh, looked into the Mormon situation, I know. On uh, more than one occasion. Uh, what uh, uh, have you focused on in particular in terms of what you've written? About the Mormons?

Van Dine: [inaudible] [stammers] I started in on going- going to write a biography of Joseph Smith. Uh, I'm a member of the Smith Vilian family, through my mother, descended from the middle one of Joseph Smith's three sisters.33 They wrote her right up almost a full column in the Sunday edition of the uh, The Des Moines Register, the largest newspaper in Iowa. I always wanted to do that, get in the paper. A University of Iowa product, one of the writers from there, of course. I worked several years on it. [coughs] The farther I got into it, the more I became alarmed at what I was going to find out, and I finally decided to drop the project.

Hallwas: Well, what were you becoming alarmed about? In particular?

Van Dine: [overlapping] Well that the- Oh, people might object if I- just think I was talking against the- I belong to one of the six Mormon churches. The second largest one. I'll explain the Mormon church was started in eighteen thirty [1830] by Joseph Smith. Uh, ten years- for ten years, since the eighteen twenties [1820s], when he first- he claimed he had a vision stating

31 Van Dine mistakenly refers to The Best Short Stories of 1924: 1. However, his short story, "The Poet," was actually published in The Best American Short Stories, 1924. 32 Edward Joseph Harrington O'Brien (1890-1941) was an American author, poet, editor, and anthologist. 33 Katharine (Smith) Salisbury Younger (1813-1900). Van Dine's mother was Flora Ellen Salisbury. Flora's father was Frederick Vilian Salisbury (1850-1934). Frederick's mother was Katharine Smith. that the other churches were wrong, you know. It was after the new one was founded. During that ten years he brought forth the- a book called the Book of Mormon. And the- oh, Mormonism is not the legal name of the church, but uh, Joseph himself stated in some of his sermons that- that people who called them Mormons, he didn't seem to object to it [stammers] after this peculiar book. And the Book of Mormon was published in March of eighteen thirty [1830], that was ten years after Joseph had his first vision in eighteen twenty [1820], which he claimed to have had.34 [clears throat] And then much later they founded the LDS Church, Latter Day Saints Church, Mormon Church, in- in Western New York, in Fayette, New York.

[25:03]

And under the laws of Illinois at that time you had to have at least six charter members. Six young men- he'd already gave us twenty-four. Uh, Smith and uh, Whitmer families.35 Became the six charter members of the church.

Hallwas: Which-

Van Dine: [overlapping] Sixteen years later, Nauvoo, two years after Smith's [inaudible], the church split into sixteen churches. They- six of them are still operating. The other ten have passed out of existence, or maybe just had a few members. I just wanted the Utah Church. That's headquartered at Salt Lake City, and second largest one there [is the] RLDS Church36 that I belonged to. Headquartered in Independence, Missouri.

Hallwas: What is most controversial about Smith's uh, biography? What's uh, what is it that the members of the church are most sensitive about when you start researching Smith's life?

Van Dine: Yes, well uh- The truth about the- oh, Joseph Smith is- and I can say this, [stammers] not that I'm related to him, but looking at anything as fine as the church, one wants to rise above relationships to members, and- and- think instead on the truth of God. During the early years of Joseph's career, he was a great Christian leader. Bringing forth the Book of Mormon, and bringing forth the doctrine and covenants, making modern day revelations, and bringing forth an inspired version of the Bible. To explain about that, the- at the present time, Marcus Bach, who headed the School of Religion37 over at University of Iowa [This information is incorrect. See PDF of transcript for notes], one of the greatest teachers of [inaudible] of our time, has written an introduction to the Book of Mormon, calling on the American people to

34 In the spring of 1820, God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith as he prayed in a grove of trees near his home in western New York. This event is known as the First Vision. 35 Of the Book of Mormon’s eleven witnesses, seven were Whitmers by blood or marriage. 36 Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, now known as the Community of Christ. 37 While Dr. Marcus Bach was a prominent faculty member in the Department of Religious Studies (originally School of Religion) at University of Iowa, he was never the department director. accept it as one of the great books of the ages. That- may not have tried to preach to people, but he evaluates it as a work [stammers] a work in Christian faith, you know. So, but- but during the second half of Joseph's career- first half he trusted in Almighty God [that] no one could do anything to him. During the second half he stuck to the Democrat Machine in Springfield, and the Masonic Lodge, and he was shot down like a dog here in Carthage. [stammers] The people in those organizations were fine people, but they were just not [stammers] or didn't know enough about it and [were] not strong enough to give him any help or protection. It was the sa- it was the same way back in the Bible days. That's just my opinion, and many people might disagree with me, but- [pause]

Hallwas: What caused the uh- [clears throat] what was the main thing [tape muffles briefly] do you think that- what do you think was the main cause of dislike of the Mormons, uh, when they were here in the eighteen forties [1840s]?

Van Dine: Yeah, well I've analyzed that quite carefully over a lot of time and there were two things that caused the city promotion at Nauvoo to break up. [When he left?] the city from North Dakota, gathering of Mormonism. Is to have a city set up, but no one but members are searchlighting it mostly, or real dedicated Christians [inaudible] from outside search it, so we can practice our faith and raise children, For instance, they don't want any taverns, or saloons to be running to, any evil influences like that in the community. And they had tried three times previously to set up the city. One in Independence, Missouri, and one at Kirkland, Ohio, and then one at Far West, Missouri. Some of the leading ministers searched [inaudible] Joseph. And when they went to the Nauvoo area in 1839 had to try again. But you- tried three times, broken down to failure, fought in bitter disgrace, these people are not oh, sufficiently pious to operate anything like that. We have members. Let them live out at outlying points, lay over some or dedicated to the Christian faith, he went right along ahead and done it anyway. Or did it anyway. Well, there was two things in my opinion contributing mostly to the breakup of the city promotion at Nauvoo. And one was that the leading ministers of the church, at least, at the earliest, two years before Smith's death, began teaching a system of marriage in which at least ninety nine percent [99%] of the people in the state of Illinois feel a deep-seated aversion. That was polygamy. And the [stammers] and the other reason was, people couldn't make a living in Nauvoo. Ordinarily the city built up, industry built up, and the population moved in to take advantage of the employment. But it was on an artificial basis [inaudible] The population moved in and there was no industry there. Whether you were a saint or a sinner, you left to go to the supermarket three times a day, and get your billfold out. They had some employment there. Had a carriage factory38 that hired a few people.

[30:00]

38 Possibly The L. Burg Carriage Company of Dallas City, Illinois. And the brick- several brickyards, and a saw mill, a few things like that. The Utah Mormon historian who recently died, Doctor Edgar Lyon,39 who's of the University of Utah, stated that at the high point, a year after Smith's murder, there were eleven thousand [11,000] people living inside the city limits. Eleven thousand people have to have some employment. And Joseph Smith was making desperate efforts [at the] time when death overtook him to attract the industry to Nauvoo. So those two things put together, and [stammers] after that, the Mormons left, then the Icarians took over. They were faced with the same problem making a living. They had a great leader.40 He was a candidate for president of France in I believe eighteen forty-eight [1848]. [This information is false. See PDF of transcript for notes.] Pulled a million votes running against Louis Napoleon.41 So he was no common man. But uh, he borrowed an immense sum of money from a Saint Louis bank, and tried to set up industry there in Nauvoo and just started his communes. They were communists, but not military communists, like the Russians, they were more like [inaudible] is where people do it. And uh, they were unable to make a living. In fact, they [inaudible] out there today. People that live there usually work across the river, in a city like Keokuk or Fort Madison. It's been a town, but has never been enough employment anyone could make a living there. Any large population. So those two things put together uh, combined, caused the breakup and downfall of- of the city of the saints. The City of Zion, they called it.

Hallwas: After Smith died, and uh- there was a couple years there before the Mormons uh, all left- or mostly left for the West. What uh- do you know anything about the troubles that went on between uh, the anti-Mormon people and the - the Mormons, specifically? What kind of- they talk about the Mormon wars, and so forth. What were people doing on both sides during those- that period?

Van Dine: [overlapping] Yeah, well of course, at the time Joseph was killed, the- oh, controversy had not yet come to a head to a point where they would ask these people to leave. And it just kept getting worse and worse after he was dead. And uh, Brigham Young oh, gained quite a bit of power and became the leader at that time. And the Saints finally decided that they would simply leave Illinois and go out into new country. Well, before Joseph died, he wrote a letter to Henry Clay. Mister Clay was a candidate for a major party for the presidency of the United States in three different elections. Eighteen forty-four [1844] Clay came the closest to it [inaudible due to traffic noise] Joseph and-

[tape cuts off; 32:51--33:37]

39 Thomas Edgar "Ed" Lyon (1903-1978). 40 Étienne Cabet (1788-1856), French socialist. Cabet and his several hundred followers arrived in New Orleans, LA in 1848, moving to Nauvoo in 1849. The population never exceeded 1,800. 41 This information is false. The 1848 French Presidential Election was the first election held in France, and elected Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte (Napoleon III) with 74% of the vote. General Louis-Eugène Cavaignac came in a distant second, with 1,448,302 votes, or about 19.5%. None of the candidates was Étienne Cabet, leader of the Icarians.

-if you obtain the White House." They were making efforts to [get] Joseph up in eighteen thirty- nine [1839] and talk with President Van Buren in Washington. And took- took several ministers with him, and also the Illinois delegation of Congress of senators and representatives gave him an audience. And he wanted the United States government to cover his funds and his property- to pay for the property they'd lost in Missouri when they were driven out of the Far West [Missouri] city promotion. And after he was- Oh they were urging Congress to- he wanted Mister Clay in case he was elected, to take that up before Congress, and get them a [stammers] a ret- oh, some payment for that. They even went so far in Missouri to pass a law of extermination.42 Exterminate them. Kill them if they didn't leave the state. [clears throat] Well, just a year or so back, the governor, Christopher Bond43, of Missouri, went before legislation and had that law repealed. In fact, [inaudible] time. So, [clears throat] But uh-

Hallwas: In your- in your work now, I noticed that you still do research over at the historical library, uh, in the courthouse. What are you uh, working on, these days? Researching?

Van Dine: [overlapping] Mmhmm. Well I've been topping oh, material for my weather history, how the- [stammers]

[35:00]

My projects are not just a straight weather project, they give the temperature and things like that but- but how it affects a lot of people.

Hallwas: [overlapping] What kinds of things have you found out? Can you generalize about what kinds of things you notice?

Van Dine: That's what I don't know. I've copied right around three thousand accounts of unusual weather in a hundred and fifty [150] years of white settlements here. And even farther back than that. [stammers] But I am not a meteorologist. Of course there are advantages to keep records of temperature you know, each day, and all that.

Hallwas: But just unusual things like sn- a great deal of snow, or um, uh, sudden cold or-

42 Missouri Executive Order 44, also known as the Extermination Order, was an executive order issued on October 27, 1838, by the Governor of Missouri, Lilburn Boggs. Claiming that Latter-day Saints had committed open and avowed defiance of the law and had made war upon the people of Missouri, Governor Boggs directed that "the Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary for the public peace—their outrages are beyond all description." 43 Governor Christopher S. "Kit" Bond rescinded the Extermination Order on June 25, 1976 through an executive order. The order also apologized for treatment of Mormons in the past. Van Dine: Some of my accounts actually are not, oh, weather accounts. About a hundred [100] of them are- are- are space accounts, like oh, a meteor would fall or something like that, you know.

Hallwas: I see. What do you- what kinds of records do you find are most helpful to you? For this information?

Van Dine: [overlapping] Well, I go through the bound volumes of the newspapers. And they have the newspaper on microfilm in the Carthage Library. I used to do that over there. We have quite a few of the bound volumes, but the Carthage Republican started in eighteen fifty-three [1853], and discontinued in nineteen fifty-four [1954]. It's a regular treasury house of history. A wonderful family [by the] name of Davidson44 family operated it the last nine [or ninety] years of a hundred years [clears throat]. And even though it might cost them some loss of money having to publish extra sheets, any thing in the way of a fine thing about history, they would put in. And then in the Nauvoo paper, they published just a hundred years [inaudible] eighteen seventy-three [1873] til nineteen seventy-three [1973].45 They're also a treasury house of history.

Hallwas: Where are these kept- where are the bound volumes that you were looking-?

Van Dine: [overlapping] [inaudible] We have a history on the fourth and on the third floor of the Carthage courthouse. And a person- they have- have all of them in the- in the [inaudible] library in Springfield, they keep my files. [It's like] working with sand to get the copyright off from anything, but I simply go through the bound volumes in the history office. And also, you might come to the Carthage public library, they'd make handwritten pencil copies, and they'd run off type copies and place them in- in various places and deposits for the examination of the American people, taking my cemetery records, for instance. [inaudible] in Springfield so people can [inaudible; possibly "some look at"] my cemetery records of Hancock County continually. People wanting to put monuments up for the dead. People wanting to find information from monuments, like their dates, one thing or another, so they can join societies like this Daughters of the American Revolution and men in the legal profession, various ones. [stammers] Old

44 James M. Davidson, brother to William T. Davidson, who was editor of the Fulton Democrat in Lewistown, Illinois. 45 The Nauvoo Independent ran from 1873-1924. In 1924, it merged with the Nauvoo Rustler to form The Independent-Rustler until 1925. From 1925-1931 it was The Nauvoo Independent-Rustler, from 1931-1937 it was The Nauvoo Independent and The Nauvoo Rustler, and from 1937-1973 the paper was known as The Nauvoo Independent once again. During a brief period when the newspaper ceased operations in 1973, other papers took up the slack, until The New Nauvoo Neighbor Press set up The New Nauvoo Neighbor (1975-1975) and the Nauvoo Neighbor (1975-1976). In 1976, under new owners once again, the paper finally settled into the name of Nauvoo Grapevine until 1990. In 1990, under Jane Langford, the newspaper was revived as The Nauvoo New Independent and is currently still in publication. people are advised to develop a hobby before they get too old, so they have something to do in their old age. I know my grandfather Salisbury farmed sixteen hours a day in Fountain Green Township. All of the sudden dropped over in his old age, and almost lost his mind. He walked the floor, and sat in the rocking chair day after day. If he'd developed a hobby- And so these things you might say are- I decided I wouldn't do these things as a hobby, would have a hobby useful to mankind. I knew one fellow who developed a hobby of collecting eh, these wrappers off of tin cans from the store. Well that added no value whatever to the human race. My cemetery records are simply highly valuable, you know.

Hallwas: What uh- where are the oldest- what are the oldest cemeteries in Hancock County that you have records of?

Van Dine: Yes, well I- I asked if we could study some of the- the city just wants to [inaudible] But I am old. Let's see. Some of them founded in- the Smith's cemetery of course is at Joseph Smith's home in- in Nauvoo, where twenty-two members of the Smith and Gifford families are interred. The eighteen-forty [1840] and then the Pioneer Saints cemetery that the- that the Mormons had back there in the eighteen-forties [1840s]. First called the Mark Cemetery, and the Old Mormon Cemetery, and now the Pioneer Saints Cemetery. Since nineteen sixty-one [1961]. I can't think all kind of any older cemeteries, you know, but some of them are quite old. Had a great many family cemeteries in those days. And grave robbers would uh, take, oh, bodies out of graves and take them around maybe to Keokuk and sell them to the medical college there. Had a write-up in the Keokuk paper just recently about that.

Hallwas: Steal from the old family cemeteries?

Van Dine: Steal- People who'd set up a cemetery on their farm, or something like that. They'd have it done in their [inaudible] grave.

[40:00]

Everything in the way of a cemetery I included. Several cemeteries have taken more than a hundred pages of Quill's typing. Like the- the Ol- Oakland Cemetery in Warsaw. And then the Oakwood Cemetery in Hannibal, then the City Cemetery Number Two in Nauvoo. And one just had one grave. That's where Mordecai [Van Dine mispronounces this name] Lincoln, the uncle of President Abraham Lincoln was buried. Whether it's one grave, or ten thousand [10,000], why if I can get it, I get it for the project. [coughs]

[brief tape cut, 40:35]

Hallwas: Among the people that are fairly well known from the Carthage area, Charles J. Scofield is a name that I know. What do you know about uh, Judge Scofield?

Van Dine: Yes, well uh, Judge Scofield, during his lifetime, was one of most prominent and best- known men in the state of Illinois.46 He was a- when he died, just - eight- nineteen fifty-three [1953] just like one week of being a hundred [100] years old. He was born on Christmas Day of eighteen fifty-three [1853], and lost the week of making it up to Christmas Day of nineteen fifty-three [1953]. He was one of the charter members of Christian church here. For many, many years, [inaudible] alumni of Culver Stockton college of- of Canton, Missouri. It seemed like there was nothing he wasn't able to do, and then do better than other people could do. He was a published novelist, he was a Temperance lecturer, he was a circuit judge, he was an attorney, he was a uh, let's see, a high school teacher, and other occupations.

Hallwas: Was he a judge up until uh, late in his life? Did he uh-

Van Dine: [overlapping] I honestly- I probably- back in the eighteen nineties [1890s] probably- no, not just real late in his life. Our street on which the museum is located here, was named after him. Scofield Street. He came from a prominent founding family of Carthage. Other Scofields, I can't recall their names,47 were attorneys, and so forth. Mister Scofield wrote the nineteen twenty-one [1921] Carthage Hancock County history. They sell for around two or three hundred dollars [$2-300] a copy if you find one for sale. And then- he was a- oh, I mentioned him being an ordained priest and minister as one of his activities. And he was a, oh, just a- an outstanding man for his time. He mar- he married Rose Spitler.48 We've got her picture here in the museum. We also have a desk back here. And we have his picture when he was in Culver Stockton College. Rose- Rose Spitler was eight years younger than he was. She graduated from Carthage College in [the] eighteen seventy-six [1876] class.

Hallwas: Are any of his relatives still in town, do you think? Any of the Scofield descendants in town?

Van Dine: [overlapping] I- I don't know [if] any are. His niece, Julia Scofield is the public librarian here. I've talked to her several times going back to Carthage. I believe she lives in Quincy and [was the] librarian there for a long time. And then the uh, he had two uh, nephews, Hiram Scofield and Timothy Scofield. Tim Scofield was one of the outstanding football men in the history of Carthage High School. I believe he's an attorney now in San Antonio, Texas, last I heard.

Hallwas: Have you ever read any of the judge's books- his novels?

46 Judge Charles Josiah Scofield (12/25/1853- 12/18/1953), practiced law for 78 years. 47 Bryant T. Scofield, Charles R. Scofield. 48 Rose (Nash) (Spitler) Scofield (1858-1932). Van Dine: [overlapping] [inaudible] We have his two novels, both of them in this case, and then back here where his picture is, two more copies back there people have brought in. He wasn't an outstanding novelist, like you'd say Herman Melville, or Nathaniel Hawthorne, or [inaudible] would have been, but his books are quite nice. Er, novels. He- more a man- a man of affairs. He was just simply a strong man, a fine man in every way.

Hallwas: You mentioned a minute ago uh, too, Senator Sidney Little.49 I don't recognize that name.

Van Dine: Yes, well, [clock begins chiming, 11 chimes] Sidney Little uh, lived up there where Judge Scofield lived. Corner of Main and Scofield Streets. The little house that was torn down over there. There was a log cabin house built for the Scofields- Mister Scofield living [there] in [the] latter days of life, suppose most of his married days. And then, [stammers] Senator Little uh, was the eh, [vehicular noises] oh, Senator in the state legislature in Springfield. People claimed, Man- I would- may be true today, had he lived, there wouldn't have been no war anymore.

[45:00]

He had enough of an influence with both sides to have uh, got them together around the table and talk them into settling their disputes in some more sensible way than that. I believe it was a loss that counted him dying when he did. At the time of his death, Joseph Smith declared a day of mourning in Nauvoo, because of his death. He had the confidence of both sides. He decided one day he would take his little girl out on a- a buggy ride through the streets of Carthage. Tucked them into the buggy, and on the way through the streets the horse he was driving became frightened of something and [became] a runaway. It threw Senator Little out and hit his head on the ground and he died four days later.50 The little girl were cut up some. But just- just previous to his death, he was one of the attorneys who def- who helped defend Joseph Smith in the circuit court trial in Monmouth, in eighteen forty-one [1841]. 51 Stephen A. Douglas, who was a Supreme Court Justice, under an act of eighteen forty-one [1841] the Supreme Court Justices each had to take a circuit judgeship, and do- do that for six months.52 Douglas got the Fifth Judicial Circuit of Illinois, and one went to Monmouth, and Carthage, these towns are located. The trial was held before Stephen A. Douglas. And Stephen A. Douglas and Joseph Smith had been, oh, lifelong friends. [This is almost surely false. See PDF of

49 Sidney H. Little (1807-1841) settled in Carthage around 1835 and practiced law. Later, he purchased over 300 acres of federal land in Hancock County. In 1837, Little was elected as Hancock County Clerk. He then served as a Whig member of the Illinois Senate from 1838 until his accidental death three years later. In the Senate, he aided the Mormons in obtaining charters from the state. 50 July 12, 1841. 51 June of 1841. 52 In an Act passed in 1841, additional associate justices of the Supreme Court were appointed by joint ballot of the General Assembly and these justices together with the other justices of the Supreme Court, held the circuit court. transcript for notes.] They were born in- close by- nearby towns just a few miles apart, in Vermont. Douglas at Brandon, Vermont, Smith at Sharon, Vermont.53 As teenagers, they lived in uh, not far from each other. Smith in the Palmyra area, in the Western New York, and Douglas in the Canandaigua area. And here in Illinois, Douglas lived at Jacksonville, and Smith at Nauvoo. They would get together for some type- and Douglas here holding court which he held- did twice a year, he would go to Nauvoo to visit Smith, or Smith would come over here. [This information cannot be confirmed and is likely false. See PDF of transcript for notes]54 He was on the bench when this trial was held. Mormons had one of the, oh, finest uh, four or five attorneys. Probably the best half dozen attorneys you would be able to round up in the American nation at that time. One of them was uh, the Williams family, who was a prominent man in the legislature.55 And there was Senator Sidney Little, and oh, four or five more of them, it's slipped my mind at this time. It was the same way when they were in Missouri. They had Alexander Doniphan, the Mexican war hero.56 And David Atchison, the represen- United States Senator for- representing Missouri.57 And men like that. The rest were men like that. I never thought they [inaudible] three thousand dollars on [inaudible]. And another one I recall, that was Sen- on Joseph's side there, at Monmouth, was Orville H. Browning,58 who was uh, secretary of the interior on the cabinet of two presidents, in Washington. President Lincoln and

53 These towns are about 42 miles apart. 54 There is no evidence to support a "lifelong friendship." Douglas lived in Vermont until he was thirteen, in 1830. However, while Smith also lived in Vermont until he was 12, the men were eight years apart in age. Therefore, when Smith moved to New York, Douglas was merely four years old - far too young for a meaningful relationship at a distance of over forty miles apart. The two men did live in close towns (7-13 miles apart) in New York for one year in 1830 when Douglas and Smith were, respectively, 17 and 25, but there is no history suggesting they were close friends during that time. Smith moved to Ohio in 1831 and lived there until 1838. Meanwhile, Douglas moved to Illinois in 1833 and remained there. Smith did not arrive in Illinois until 1839, and died in 1844. Douglas found the Mormons to offer a significant opportunity to further his political career, as they held such a large, new political constituency, and he did everything he could to encourage this support. Senator Sidney H. Little introduced the bill to change Commerce City to Nauvoo, and Douglas, though secretary of state and not a legislator, managed the bill in the House. Later, in 1841, Smith was arrested following a Missouri extradition order. The trial, held in Monmouth, was presided over by Douglas, who declared the arrest warrant invalid. Smith and Douglas did dine together in 1843, at which time Smith pronounced, “Judge, you will aspire to the presidency of the United States; and if ever you turn your hand against me or the Latter-day Saints, you will feel the weight of the hand of Almighty upon you.” Douglas was a notable opponent of Mormonism in later years. 55 Archibald Williams (1801-1863), a Quincy attorney, was a close political associate of Abraham Lincoln for three decades. Williams joined with his friend and associate Orville H. Browning to defend Joseph Smith from extradition to Missouri in 1841. 56 Alexander W. Doniphan (1808-1887) was a prominent lawyer, military leader, and political figure. He is remembered for his refusal to execute Joseph Smith and Smith’s followers during the 1838 Mormon War and his exemplary military leadership during the Mexican War of 1846–1848. 57 David Rice Atchison (1807-1886) practiced law with Alexander Doniphan in Missouri. Atchison and Doniphan represented Smith in land disputes with non-Mormon settlers in Caldwell and Daviess Counties. 58 Orville Hickman Browning (1806-1881) was an attorney who served in the Black Hawk War, then in the Illinois State Senate and Illinois House of Representatives and later the U.S. Senate, and was appointed Secretary of the Interior by President Andrew Johnson. President Johnson.59 [This information is incorrect. See PDF of transcript for notes.] He probably did more than any other living man to get the White House into Lincoln's hands. Who succeeded Stephen A. Douglas in the United States Senate when Douglas uh, was an alcoholic and died before the age of uh, fifty. And he was one of the chief promotors of the eighteen seventy [1870] constitution in Illinois. When you have attorneys like that on your bench, like Senator Little and Orville H. Browning, and Williams, and so forth, well you have a good li- a good list of lawyers.

And let's see, something- something else interesting now. Well the last thing Joseph Smith did in his life, was to write a letter to Orville H. Browning, about two hours before he was uh, oh, murdered here in Carthage, in the old jail. And that letter has been preserved, and they have printed copies of it. It was a brief letter. He told him, he says, "I've been- I'm going to have to make an appearance in the county court on Saturday,"60 eh, circuit court, perhaps it was. That was Thursday. Had two charges pending, and he wanted him to get down here to Carthage and represent him in the trial. Well, before Browning could even- even got the letter, why, Smith was with his ancestors [dead]. There isn't any doubt that had he gotten down here, both counts on which Joseph was held, one of them was oh, treason against the state of Illinois. They based that on him declaring martial law in Illinois. The only person that has any right to declare martial law is the governor of the state. Either the sheriff, or else the mayor of a city, has to make an appeal to him, and he examines the facts, and say- they lean over backwards not to declare martial law.

[50:00]

Going away with all the ordinary practices of law. So Governor Ford61 was the only man that could declare it [inaudible]. Joseph's defense was that under the city ordinances, and under the- oh, charter of the city of Nauvoo, that he had a right to do that. Well the, the- the law was unconstitutional. Joseph's wife had some correspondence with Governor Ford just recently, where Ford pointed out to them, he says, "Your attorney told you that you can do certain things in the city government, but the fact of the matter is, your attorneys are on your payroll. That's the reason they were- told you all those things. So uh- [pause]

Hallwas: [clears throat] Among the uh, [clears throat] other people besides-

59 This information is only partially true. While Browning did help Lincoln secure the 1860 presidential nomination, he was only in the U.S. Senate from 1860-1863, and not appointed as Secretary of the Interior until Andrew Johnson's presidency. Browning served in this position from 1866-1868. 60 Written around noon on June 27, 1844, the letter reads: "Lawyer Browning- Sir, Myself and brother Hyrum are in jail on charge of treason, to come up for examination on Saturday morning, 29th inst., and we request your professional services at that time, on our defense, without fail. Most respectfully, your servant, JOSEPH SMITH. P. S.—There is no cause of action, for we have not been guilty of any crime, neither is there any just cause of suspicion against us; but certain circumstances make your attendance very necessary. J.S." 61 Thomas Ford (1800-1850), was governor of Illinois from 1842-1846.

Van Dine: Well, wait a second, I gotta pick up the other reason why he was-

Hallwas: [overlapping] Oh! Okay.

Van Dine: -being held. One of them was because the mayor of Nauvoo, he issued an order, ordering city marshal John P. Greene62 to take a posse with him and to destroy the printing press of the newspaper in Nauvoo, called- called the Expositor, [coughs] under the Public Nuisance act. Well the public nuisance law, if someone throws garbage in the streets, you can arrest them for that, but you can't destroy private property. Go in and destroy a printing press. [coughs] The Expositor men63 were a oh, a group of very fine men. Oh, one of them, Chauncey Higbee, was later in life a circuit judge in Pittsfield.64 His son after him, Harry Higbee,65 was a circuit judge. And his father before him66 had been a county judge in Missouri. [coughs] The Expositor men were oh, men of fine ability. And another one was a newspaper man. [inaudible] in Rushville for a lifetime. They issued one issue of the Expositor, and the Saints, or Mormons, didn't like what was said. So they operated under the Public Nuisance act, and Joseph signed an order ordering the city marshal John P. Greene to go in and destroy the printing press. They'd inve- the Foster men invested two thousand dollars [$2,000] in that printing press. Had it shipped up from Saint Louis, to Nauvoo. And other supplies on hand, such as paper. And the posse went there, and took this stuff out in the street, and burned all of it. And they lost about two thousand dollars [$2,000]. And then- so uh- it was a- [stammers] They couldn't- Fact of- what they would have- what [inaudible], Joseph was acting under the law but the law was unconstitutional. Gotten him out of it that way on both charges. But Browning was the smartest lawyer living. He would have had to be to have the career he had. He was standing strong with Joseph in the legal way, anyway. But eh [pause]

Hallwas: Um, aside from um, people of the Mormon era, some of the famous names, uh, you mentioned another person um, who's um, a- been a writer. Is not very- very famous but is known locally. Rowena Califf.67

62 John Portineus Greene (1793–1844) was an early leader in the Latter Day Saint movement. In 1844, Greene supervised the destruction of the press of the Nauvoo Expositor. Greene accompanied the Smith brothers to Carthage Jail. 63 The Expositor was published by William Law, Wilson Law, Charles Ivins, Francis M. Higbee, Chauncey L. Higbee, Robert D. Foster, Charles A. Foster. Edited by Sylvester Emmons. 64 Chauncey Lawson Higbee (1821-1884), publisher of the Nauvoo Expositor, was excommunicated from the Mormon Church in 1842 on the basis of polygamy. Furious with what he viewed as Joseph Smith's hypocrisy, he and other disgruntled ex-Mormons published the Expositor two years later, and was identified as a member of the mob that killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith in June 1844. He served as a member of the Illinois House of Representatives in 1854, and from 1858 to 1861 was a member of the Illinois Senate. Higbee later settled in Pittsfield, Illinois, having been elected to the circuit court in 1861, and appellate court in 1877. 65 Harry Higbee (1854-1929) 66 Elias Higbee (1795-1843) 67 Rowena Califf (1891-1979) was a writer and philanthropist who worked as a bookkeeper in Carthage, Illinois.

Van Dine: Oh, yes.

Hallwas: Ah, what uh-

Van Dine: [overlapping] [stammers; inaudible] Oh, this week's Hancock County Journal asked if- to present the facts of her life. Well, she was- she was a very fine woman, in every way.

Hallwas: What kind of works did she write?

Van Dine: Well, she wrote stories for- for children, but published two books in her younger days. She was- very brief stories to be read to children. And her book of verse was the same way. Of course then, she was in a field that was too limited. You might be the best children's writer in the world yet you never would become a great author. Like Eugene Field,68 people like that. They- and the person that wrote Alice in Wonderland.69 They're classics and all that, but your- her field wasn't big enough to make her first uh, rate, renowned or anything like that as an author.

Hallwas: Do you know uh- uh, Rowena Califf personally?

Van Dine: Well, yes, she came to my house about- oh, must have been right after forty years ago. My parents were living in Burnside. I was staying there with them at the time. I've since bought the house, as I explained. And she brought a young lady named Ruth Davidson of the Davidson family, operated the Carthage Republican, and they wanted to talk to me about poetry and so forth. I remember how we sat there in the- in the living room, and talked there for a half hour. And I was of course- been around her a number of times since. And in fact the- Don Forsythe,70 the editor of the Hancock County Journal for many years, he was the president of Kiwanis International for a long term. Nationwide office.

[55:00]

Now a government office. He- he and the Califf family were quite friendly with each other, and he decided he would oh, publish a volume dealing the verse of Rowena Califf. I believe the way

68 Eugene Field, Sr. (1850-1895) was a popular American writer and newspaperman, best known for his children's poetry and humorous essays. He was known as the "poet of childhood". Field wrote the famous poem "Wynken, Blynken, and Nod." 69 Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (1832-1898), who used the pen name "Lewis Carroll," was an English writer, mathematician, logician, Anglican deacon, and photographer. 70 Donald Taylor Forsythe (1903-1986) owned the Hancock County Journal until 1970 and the Journal Printing Company until 1973. He was president of Kiwanis International from 1953-1954, and chairman of the American Hearing Research Foundation. The Forsythe Hearing Research Laboratory in the Siegel Institute for Communicative Diseases at Michael Reese Hospital was established in his name by the Kiwanis Foundation. to do- the way to do- [inaudible] books is they do the printing part, in the printing off- the Journal office here in Carthage, and send them to Saint Louis to be bound into books. And he did that to her. And the title of the book was Just Being Me.71 Oh, verses- [stammers] book for children-

Hallwas: Was that the first book?

Van Dine: Yes, it was- no, now that was the first- first and only book of verse she put out. And then I believe two books of short stories. Let's see, something else I wanted to say. [pause]

Hallwas: Do you think that uh, Carthage College has had a um, significant impact on the nature of- of the town of Carthage itself? The fact that you tend to have a few literary people from here, like Judge Scofield and Rowena Califf and so forth? Because the college had been here for so long?

Van Dine: I'll answer that in a minute, I had something I wanted- I was going to say. [clears throat] Rowena Califf's father72 was a member of the State Legislature, the lower house of legislature, and he was also kind of superintendent of schools for a term or two, in the courthouse. She came of a very fine family. [coughs] Well, there have been a number of things in the history of Carthage that have tended to keep the city unified, make life oh, finer in every respect. Let's see, one would have been Carthage College, and Carthage High School had a tremendous impact. About a hundred- operated about a hundred and ten years. People sat with each other in class at four years in high school they remained friends for life. And the churches of Carthage. Around ten first-class church congregations here in Carthage, representing different denominations. Things like that. I think a college in a town is bound to be beneficial. It can't be otherwise. I think many of these Carthage people are alumni of Carthage College. We had one the other day that signed the register [museum guest book] and I believe lived with Doctor Kibbe here in the house for seven years. Now that I've mentioned her, we will- before you go I'll give you her address, so you can write to her and find out what Kibbe was like.

Hallwas: Okay. That's a good idea.

Van Dine: [overlapping] [inaudible] but Carthage College was a Lutheran college. In the opening years of Carthage College, ministers were the presidents of it. Ministers were very deeply dedicated men.

Hallwas: Who in particular was- is uh, comes to mind as important in the founding of Carthage College?

71 Califf, Rowena, and Francis Swarbrick. Just Being Me. Carthage, Ill: Journal Print. Co, 1967. 72 John A. Califf (1852-1931)

Van Dine: Why, I- way back in eighteen seventy [1870]73 I'd have to sort of look that up before I could answer it. But there- seems like at the present time, colleges operated by churches are not what they were back there. I asked one prominent Presbyterian layman, why Knox College cut loose from Presbyterian Church. He said, "It was the other way around. We cut loose from Knox. They got so- poor quality of life that we couldn't stand them anymore." Not religious enough, in other words. Not the same thing [inaudible] about Knox, but. And there's other church colleges like that. They search for a place I belong. Our college is not what it was in earlier days. Most serious colleges in this nation they just hand you know, to- the fact of the matter is, things like drunkenness and adultery just sweeping this nation like a flood. And after every one of these World Wars you'd see the deterioration and the lowering of public mora- morals. After men lived close to filth and death for four years, and murdering each other, they come back and scatter out over the nation and take that spirit and, and that way of thinking with them. And after every global war you'd see, all over the world, in fact, the lowering of spiritual quality necessary to maintain the finer things of life.

Hallwas: Hmm.

Van Dine: I believe that's been going on in this nation since the turn of the century. But the church colleges are just not what they were previous to the turn of the century.

[tape cuts and restarts; 59:34]

Van Dine: I- I forgot to mention Joseph Smith's acquaintance with John C. Calhoun,74 the southern states' world famous representative in American politics of the Antebell- Antebellum period of our annals, meaning before the Civil War. I've already touched on his acquaintance with Henry Clay of Kentucky. Daniel Webster. The trio of these three statesmen, or these statesmen from Massachusetts, wouldn't have anything to do with Joseph Smith, but the other two, Calhoun and Clay, talked.

[1:00:03]

Calhoun is rated today as one of the leading thinkers and [inaudible] a Republican type of government in our national history. Preaching the concurrent majority version of democracy, as opposed to the numerical majority system. Meaning government by people of superior talent

73 Carthage College was founded by Lutheran pioneers in education, and chartered by the Illinois General Assembly on Jan. 22, 1847, in Hillsboro, Illinois. It was then known as Hillsboro College. In 1852, the College relocated to Springfield, Illinois, and became Illinois State University. However, in 1870, the College moved again to Carthage, Illinois, and took on the name of Carthage College, which it retains to this day, although it moved in 1962 to Kenosha, Wisconsin. 74 John Caldwell Calhoun (1782-1850), was an American statesman and political theorist from South Carolina, and the seventh Vice President of the United States from 1825 to 1832. and resources, rather than by the biggest show of hands on election day. Well in Washington in eighteen thirty-nine [1839], handshaking and button-pulling politics and such was present in Van Buren and others. He, Joseph Smith, sat in Calhoun's office, also. Calhoun, like Dan Webster, wanted the White House. He couldn't have [inaudible] a tie-up with enough Northern states in addition to the South and older parts of the North, like New England. [inaudible] to tie up, with enough of the recently admitted [stammers] tie up with enough of the recently admitted Western- [stammers] recently admitted into the Union Western states, such as Illinois, Wisconsin, and others. They were outvoted by opposition in the electoral college.

People everywhere considered Joseph Smith as a rising who would soon, if not already, be able to deliver the vote of Illinois in National elections. Joseph, at the time just before he was murdered in eighteen forty-four [1844], in addition to carrying on his correspondence which has been mentioned with Clay, wrote to Calhoun. He repeated his request in- of eighteen thirty-nine [1839], for help in free- eh, forcing the state of Missouri to reinstate the Mormon people in their Missouri home, or to at least pay them cash money for property stolen from them or destroyed. I believe Calhoun had now advanced from United States Senator from his uh, home state South Carolina to a position as Secretary of State in President Tyler's cabinet. Or if not, he soon was. In their eighteen thirty-nine [1839] meeting in Washington, they had discussed whether our- under our confederated republic system of government the national government had power to go into a state and to compel them to do anything like that. Calhoun argued in their talk that under constitutional uh, oh, law, the main power was in the hands of the local units, which were states. And the national government just had authority to handle a few things, like the post office system, which could be more conveniently operated by them for the country as a whole. That the national government actually could only do a few things like that, that's [inaudible] the law.

One of the biggest problems in our nation's history in the operation of our democratic government with government of different levels operating in the lives of citizens has been this one. Our nation almost fell to pieces back there because the Washington government was not considered to have enough power to hold it together. In eighteen four [1804] and again in eighteen fourteen [1814], the New England states New Yor- New York combination almost pulled out of the Union. And in the early eighteen sixties [1860s] eleven south- eleven Southern states did do this. Undoubtedly, most constitutional thinkers and lawyers argued- agreed with Calhoun, sharing limited and specified powers. With a national ruler with the state uh, actual ruling power. Calhoun answered Joseph's eighteen forty-four [1844] letter repeating his position in their Washington discussion of eighteen thirty-nine [1839]. To the effect the national government didn't have power to go into Missouri and do this. Joseph was indignant and wrote back [that] the national government was all-powerful in a republican setup. Undoubtedly the majority of people agreed with Joseph today as to the- to this theory, at least. But it must be admitted we have gone to the other extreme now, and our national government has gone so far as to taking our work [stammers] which the states should do, and could do better. Uh-

[End of tape; 1:03:40]

Transcribed and researched for Western Illinois University Libraries by Julia Thompson in April- June of 2018.

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