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Home , Brute (Reed Richards), Captain Britain, Cobra (Marvel Comics), Don Perlin, Fixer (comics), Fred Kida

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ord Origins...6 w 34 58 Sinnott on Trimpe... INTRODUCTION...4 ore FOREWORD...5 INTRODUCTION...4 F Origins...... Trimpe6 on Trimpe... arvel Comics...22 Trimpe on Trimpe...12Marvel Comics...22 Spotlight on theSpotlight Photostat on Machine... “,27 We Love You”... Spotlight on ... Spotlight on the Photostat Machine...Romita on Trimpe... 64 Spotlight on “Herb Trimpe, We Love You”...30 .65 Romita on Trimpe...... 34

Sinnott on Trimpe...... The Incredible41 ...46 The Incredible Hulk...46 Spotlight on Hulk Reprints... Trimpe’sTrimpe’s Hulk Hulk Rogues ’s Gallery...... Gallery.. .65 77 Spotlight on Wolverine...... 58 73

Spotlight on Hulk Reprints...64 Inking Trimpe Gallery... Trimpe’s HulkTrimpe Rogues Inking Gallery... Gallery...... 65 83 Trimpe Inking Gallery...... 81 73 Inking Trimpe Gallery...77 Buscema on Trimpe... Thomas on Trimpe... Thomas on Trimpe...81 Buscema on Trimpe...... 83 89 The Other Heroes...86 The Other Heroes...86 Spotlight on Ant-Man... Spotlight on Ant-Man...... 8991 Spotlight Spotlight on on Captain ... Britain...... 91 Spotlight on ...92 Spotlight on Iron Man...92 SpotlightSpotlight on the on ...... the Defenders...9494 Spotlight on Spider-Man...96 Spotlight on Spider-Man...96 A FingerA Finger in the in Dike... the Dike...98 98 A Sense of Humor...... 101 Spotlight on the Black & White Magazines... Spotlight on the Black & White Magazines...A Sense102 of Humor... Licensed Characters...... 104 101 Spotlight on G.I. Joe...106 102 Spotlight on G.I. Joe... Licensed Characters... Spotlight on ...... 109 Spotlight on Indiana Jones...... 115106 104 Spotlight on ...117 Changing WithSpotlight ...... on Shogun119 Warriors... Spotlight on IndianaSpotlight Jones... on Godzilla... Leaving Marvel...... 121 Spotlight on The Times Article...... 122 109

Advertising & Promotional...126 115 Advertising & Promotional...Changing125 With117 The Times... ...... Spotlight128 on Peckmann on Trimpe...130 List of Crest Commercials...131 Newspaper Strips...133 Leaving Marvel...121 Peckmann on Trimpe... Spotlight on The PowerAfter of Angels ...139 Newspaper Strips...132 Herb Trimpe Gallery...141Spotlight on After Marvel...136 I nde 119

INDEX...1156

Herb Trimpe Gallery...

x...167 M Animation...128 Article...122 The Power of Angelsarvel...136

130 131

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... 139 CHAPTER 0NE Origins of Herb Trimpe Home and Family In the spirit of the story, it seems only fitting to begin at the beginning. In this interview, Trimpe talks about his family and school, shedding light on the origins of the artist. (No gamma radiation involved.)

Dewey Cassell: When and where were you born? Cassell: So, what does the “W” stand for in Herb Herb Trimpe: In Peekskill, New York, May 26th, W. Trimpe? 1939, on the Hudson River, an hour and a half Trimpe: It is “William.” Actually, they named me from . “Herbert,” after my dad, even way after the name wasn’t popular any more. And they named me “William” after his brother, my uncle. So it’s all family-related names. I wish they’d been a little more original. I would rather be a “John,” actually, or a “Fred” I think. Cassell: “Herb” is very distinctive, though. Trimpe: Yeah, actually, it works as “Herb,” but it doesn’t work as “Herbert.” Cassell: What did your parents do? Trimpe: My dad did various things. He was primarily a skilled sheet metal worker. That was his job during World War Two, working in ship- ping yards in New Jersey. When World War Two was ending, we moved back to Peekskill. My dad had to leave New Jersey because we lived in an area below sea level and it was very damp and he wound up in the hospital with pneumonia as a very young man. It nearly did him in, so we moved back to New York State, when I was about five or so. And then he worked at various places. There ABOVE: The guest of honor. were a number of companies around that are Courtesy of Herb Trimpe. no longer there. You know, American industry is RIGHT: Parents Annie and not what it used to be. You could live in a small Herb Trimpe with son Herb. town and go to work in a local factory, but it’s not Courtesy of Herb Trimpe. doable any more. Cassell: That’s very true. Trimpe: He actually wound up retiring with a very good pension from the Peekskill Public School System, where he was a—I don’t know what they call it now—maintenance engineer. In those days, they called him a janitor. So that’s where we wound up. I don’t know if he actually retired. I don’t think he had reached 65 yet, but he got sick from working around asbestos for too long and wound up contracting lung cancer and that took about two years to finish dad off. And my mom, who had been a stay-at-home mom when

6 Trimpe on Trimpe An Interview with Alex Trimpe

Trimpe met and married while working for and together they had three children—two girls and a boy, Alex, who recalls in this interview what it was like growing up Trimpe.

Dewey Cassell: When I was talking to your dad pretty entertaining. But yeah, that’s the story. the other day, he was saying that you were born Like I say, it could be a complete lie since I was ABOVE: Alex Trimpe with Dad. in the middle of a . not conscious at the time. Courtesy of Herb Trimpe. Alex Trimpe: Yeah. Well, I can’t say that I recall Cassell: And you are the oldest, right? BELOW: Commission that, obviously. But that’s what I hear. I guess my Trimpe: I’m the oldest of my mom and my dad’s drawing of the by mom went into labor when they were at a comic three kids, but I have an older half-sister. Herb Trimpe. book convention. I’ve got a bunch of cards that Cassell: When were you born? people made in my baby book. Obviously a lot Trimpe: ‘Seventy-three. Amelia was born in ’76, of people were artists of some kind so they’re and then Sarah was ’78. Cassell: When you were born, was your mom still working for Marvel or had she already left? Trimpe: I don’t know. I know that when I was growing up, she definitely wasn’t and I don’t think she worked there very long. Cassell: Was your dad working out of the office for Marvel at that time or was he working at home? Trimpe: It was only at home. I mean, I don’t know when I was really little, but I think we lived in the city, in , for a year. So probably during that time, he was still going to the office because he was in Manhattan, but then we were in Cornwall, England, for a year. Some of my earliest memories are from then. Obviously from there, he was sending it overseas and that’s also where he learned to an airplane. But for my whole conscious life, he was working at home in various parts of the house, but mainly a little, tiny office space on the second floor that was next to my bedroom. He also had a big drawing table downstairs, in the living room. Cassell: Do you have any particular memories of him drawing while you were growing up? Trimpe: No, I’m sure things could probably spark a memory, but nothing that just sort of floats in my mind. Actually, the one memory I have, for some reason, has nothing to do with him drawing, really. My mom’s bedroom is where all of the comic books were kept, because we got free comic books, which was the staff of life for me and my friends when I was little. But they were all on these metal shelves in there and in

12 CHAPTER TWO Marvel Comics

Marvel Comics began in 1939 as Timely Publications, founded by publisher Martin Goodman. The company enjoyed early success with characters that included the , the Sub-Mariner, and , the latter created by and . Goodman hired his wife’s cousin, Stanley Lieber, who wrote stories under the and took over as editor when Simon left in 1941. When super-heroes fell out of fashion after the war, Timely branched out into multiple genres at a time when copying the competition was of the day. After weath- ering a downturn in the late 1950s by reducing staff, the company now known as Marvel found a new lease on life with the introduction of the Four in the fall of 1961. By the time Trimpe joined Marvel, the super-hero revolution was well under way, and he had an opportunity to work with some remarkable people, while making his own mark in the field. Like all the members of the Marvel Bullpen at the time, he was given a nickname by editor Stan Lee: “Happy” Herb Trimpe. After hearing him talk about his various accomplishments during the course of his career in a modest and matter-of-fact way, it seems perhaps that a more appropriate moniker might have been “Humble” Herb Trimpe. In this interview, Trimpe talks about how he got the job at Marvel Comics, the work he did in production and inking westerns, and the unique nature of the company and the people, including Stan Lee.

Cassell: How did you get the job at Marvel? top of and and guys ABOVE: Detail of 1970 Trimpe: A friend of mine from The School of Visual like that. I think I inked some of Dick [Ayer]’s Marvelmania self-portrait Arts, , was working at Marvel. I’d stuff and it was quite enjoyable. So I don’t by Herb Trimpe. known him before—in fact, when I left Tom Gill to know if that was by design or just because they BELOW: Cover of enlist, he took over and started working for Tom needed on the work, because the #134 by Trimpe, which himself. By the time I got back, he had wound up number of titles was quite extensive featured his first story for at Marvel as the production chief. I did take some in the mid-’60s. There were probably five, six Marvel, “Shoot-Out at samples up to DC, but I didn’t have anything [Westerns] out of less than 20 overall titles. Hooker Flat.” current. It was all stuff I’d done in art school or When you included the romance magazines, done for fun. So, I got talking to Verpoorten, and they took up quite a percentage of the total he said, “You should bring whatever you’ve got up output of titles in the mid-’60s. And they were to the office and let take a look at it,” good books to work on, too. because Sol was screening incoming artists, of Cassell: I heard that at one point you ran the which there weren’t very many, I can tell you. It Photostat machine. wasn’t like now. Trimpe: I got a call from Sol one day and he said, Cassell: What was your first assignment at “We’re not going to send galleys out to copy any Marvel? more. We’re going to do all that stuff in-house Trimpe: When I brought my work up and Sol and we’re getting this big photographic device Brodsky looked at it, I immediately got work that we can shoot text or pictures on.” This was inking Westerns freelance—Kid Colt, Rawhide when cut-and-paste was actually cut-and-paste. Kid, Two-Gun Kid—and that worked out good. And it was about eight feet long and it had a bed Cassell: Do you think Stan had you Westerns to put the work on, and a huge adjustable cam- as a try-out for penciling work? era, and you could feed the paper right into a Trimpe: I don’t think he saw inking as a lesser developer and then a and then into a dryer. form of the artwork where you could take an And he said, “We need somebody to operate amateur and have them do it, since inking takes that—there’s a technician coming in from the quite a bit of expertise in itself. But saying that, company—would you like to take the job?” And I I did start out inking Westerns at Marvel over said, “Sure, it sounds good. I’ll do that.” So that’s

22 when I started working for $130 a week, and I did of the artists came from commercial art back- that for maybe six months. grounds, even though to one degree or another, Cassell: Did you continue to do any artwork? they loved doing comic books. I’ve heard Syd Trimpe: During that time I did ink some Westerns Shores and other artists say, “If things got slow on the side, and then I did “The Eagle” when I was doing commercial work, you could with and some other odds and always run over to a comic book company. They’d ends. give you a and you’d go home and do the Cassell: Did you enjoy doing the Westerns? artwork, bring it back, and they’d pay you right Trimpe: Yeah, because I liked . away.” They’d pay on delivery and that was one Actually, I think the first full-length story I did of the advantages of working on comics in those was “Shoot-Out at Hooker Flat.” It was written by days. It helped tide people over. At times, comics Gary Friedrich and it was in a Kid Colt comic. [Kid were used by commercial illustrators, or people Colt Outlaw #134, May 1967.] who worked outside the business on a regular Cassell: Did you have reference for what horses basis, to supplement their income. They didn’t looked like or different styles of guns? tell anybody they drew comic books. That would Trimpe: I made ‘em up. I made horses up. I draw not be wise as a career move, you know. Splash page to Marvel terrible horses. I didn’t really use photos much. Cassell: Did you ever hang out with the other Super- Heroes #16 by Trimpe. That might have been one of Jack’s influences, artists outside of work? Courtesy Heritage Auctions. because Jack just made everything up out of Trimpe: We had a softball team in the publishers’ whole cloth. He just invented it, and I think I was league. was the driving and doing the same thing. And we were asked to look at Jack. Not so much “draw like Kirby”—that wasn’t it. A lot of people voluntarily drew like Kirby, like Barry Smith had a strong Kirby [influ- ence] in the beginning, as did , but they both took it one step further. They both went into their own realm after a while, and they were both unique and unusual because of that. Me? I didn’t know where the I was going. Cassell: What other artists were working at Marvel at the time? Trimpe: Most of the guys in place were a genera- tion before me, and they were solid craftsmen. When I came into Marvel, I had to squeeze in between guys like Romita, Colan, Kirby, Buscema, , . These guys were excel- lent artists. They had grace and style. Inkers like Sinnott and Giacoia—nobody can do that today. Nobody knows that kind of brushwork and the kind of things they did with ease, it seemed. It was magnificent-looking art. If you see an origi- nal Buscema page, it’s just astounding work. It’s incredible. So when I was coming in, I was the piker of the bunch. I came on around the same time Barry Smith came in and shortly after (or maybe before) Jim Steranko. We were the more- or-less contemporaries in the ’60s. Of course, I couldn’t draw anywhere near any of them. Cassell: That generation of Romita, Colan, Kirby and others were really very humble, though. Trimpe: Yeah, that’s true. At the time, it was, “Okay, it’s another plot, it’s another story. Here’s the character, draw it, make the deadline, get the check.” That’s all there was to it then. Most

25 The Incredible Hulk

With the success of The , Stan Lee and Jack Kirby decided to try to make lightning strike twice with The Incredible Hulk in May 1962. The Hulk was, in some respects, the least novel invention of Lee and Kirby. Marvel had been publishing monster comics for years. At a time when they were re-inventing the super-hero genre with characters that had as many human weaknesses as superhuman strengths, the Hulk seemed a bit out of place. In fact, the initial comic book series was cancelled after only six issues. However, Marvel recognized that there was something different, something special about the giant and he did not go gently into that good night. While he lost his own title, the Hulk began to make guest appearances in other comics, beginning with The Fantastic Four. He became a founding member of the and then began appearing alongside Giant-Man in the split book , where he remained until he got his own title back with issue #102. A number of well-respected artists rendered the Hulk over the years, from Kirby to , , Bill Everett, , and , before the reins passed to Herb Trimpe. Trimpe first inked the Hulk in five issues of Tales to Astonish, beginning with #94, and then later took over the penciling with issue #106 of The Incredible Hulk in 1968. After a slow start, the Hulk has proved to have enduring popularity with fans, many of whom consider Trimpe’s rendition to be the definitive one. In this interview, Trimpe talks about how he got involved with the Hulk and some of his favorite things about the green from his eight-year tenure on the book.

Cassell: How did you get involved with the Hulk? Trimpe: I don’t think I ever had a serious hitch Trimpe: I inked a couple of “Hulk” stories in Tales except when I started penciling The Incredible to Astonish that Marie Severin did. And then, for Hulk. There was a little transition period when I some reason, Marie went on to bigger and better was doing layouts, and I was kind of falling into things. Stan had other plans for her. I don’t know the EC style. I did about four pages and if he wanted her to do more coloring or what, but showed them to Stan and he I had been working in the production department said, “Ehhh, let me get Frank for about six months—and doing freelance on [Giacoia] to lay this out and you ABOVE: From Trimpe Hulk pin- the side, which included the infamous “Phantom follow that. And that’s the way I up in Hulk magazine. Eagle”—and he stuck his head in my cubicle one want you to do it from now OPPOSITE: Hulk Smash! Cour- day and said, “Hey, Trimpe. You want to draw The on.” So I said okay. I tore up tesy of John Morrow. Incredible Hulk?” I said, “Oh, okay.” To me, it was the pages and I threw them more of a steady gig. in the trash, right in the Bullpen, Cassell: When you started inking The Incredible and Frank laid out the story. I Hulk over Marie’s pencils, did you have any inkling followed Frank’s lead and I tight- that they were going to want you to take over the ened it and it was fine. But book? the first complete issue that I Trimpe: Well, no. I do think that the inking I did penciled was laid out by on that was really building a foundation for going who, of course, was an . That was further, although, at the time, I had no idea how [The Incredible] Hulk #109. These long that would be. We just didn’t think in those were the days when inkers terms. It was just, “Oh, it was a job? Okay. What’s were first-rate pencilers. They next?” pretty much are today, too, but Cassell: How was it picking up where Marie left he was an excellent penciler, as is Joe off? Sinnott. And I kind of got it right away.

46 and 2,000 pounds? That means he goes through Cassell: I always thought you did a good job with a teething process that by no comparison does a the hair and even with the proportion. One of the baby go through, even with their first teeth and things I notice when you see other people draw- as much pain as they go through. They don’t fit in ing the Hulk is that frequently the head is out of his jaw, or they’re too big for his jaw, or his jaw’s proportion to the rest of the body. You always too big for them. His whole physical structure seem to get it right. would be totally at odds with each other, as far Trimpe: Yeah, it’s ridiculous. There’s something as the physical growth goes. Truthfully, I never about early cartooning that if you’re going to thought of it that way, but I’ve had a lot of den- show a big, , the thing to do is give him tal work done, so I’m kind of tooth-conscious. big thighs, big forearms like , and definite- I’ve had so many root canals, I could actually ly a little head, because a little head accentuates do one myself. I know the whole procedure. So, the body size. It makes the body look bigger with yeah, if the guy looks like a , then he should a smaller head. So they’ve been leaning in that have teeth that look like a brute, not like Arnold direction and I don’t know why. When Kirby and Schwarzenegger, that goes to some Dentist to Lee came up with the character, the Hulk was the Stars and has everything re-implanted and what he was supposed to be, a distorted human perfect like some sort of robot or android. That being with an illness, basically, a serious illness was part of it. The other part was that I always that affected growth hormones to the . So wrestled with his hair. I couldn’t quite ever decide that’s the way I consciously, or subconsciously, how I wanted the hair to look. I loved Kirby’s hair always thought of the Hulk, that he was a mon- because it was a little bit of hair on top. I think ster. What people in the 18th Century would that was accurate in terms of what the charac- have called a monster. But really, a person who ter might look like. was born deformed would have wished like any- thing to be like everybody else. That’s the way I saw the Hulk, that’s the way Roy saw the Hulk, and I think that’s the way Len saw the Hulk. It was an —no pun intended—for the Hulk to be what he was. That’s the human side that he never lost, and that’s why there was a theme of pathos and humanity that ran through the Hulk’s character. Now I don’t see it that way. I don’t see the humanity in the Hulk, especially now. His thighs got really big and his head got really small. And every time you see somebody doing a commis- sion, he’s always enraged, crazy enraged. In our stories, a good part of the time, he was not en- raged. He was stumbling his way through a forest or fishing himself out of the ocean or wondering what the f*** was going on here. It’s not a new theme, the Hulk. It’s the idea of dual personality. It exists in fiction, it exists in real life, and the full forms are schizophrenia and multiple personalities. I think that’s one of the reasons he’s successful. Nobody can identify with Captain America, but you can definitely identify with a character like the Hulk, especially in those days, in every decision you make, because you’re torn. You don’t know which way to go with it. “Should I do this? Should I do that? If I do this, what’s going to happen, and if I do that, is it going to change everything?” Not to even get into the area of people with ill- nesses they can’t control, which is basically

52 SPOTLIGHT ON Wolverine With

about, writer Len Wein re- character if they wanted one. I sponds: “You’re kidding, right? never knew I’d be the guy who I think there are people in Ethi- ended up writing the book. It’s opia who know how Wolverine really all as simple as that. I did originated. There are very few a number of characters with people who don’t know. Maybe John Romita: Brother an Eskimo somewhere. “ So for himself, Wolverine, the Con- the outsider Ethiopians and strictor, a couple of others, Eskimos, and anyone else un- where we’d just sit down and familiar with how the idea for work out the design together. the Wolverine materialized, And I did the same thing with Len proceeded to share the . Dave had al- story once again, “Wolverine ready done some design work came out of Brother Voodoo, on some of those characters. weirdly enough. I was doing We did a little adjusting on Brother Voodoo and the book some of the pieces here and Comics would be was set in the Caribbean. The there.” forever changed in the fall characters had Caribbean, Ja- So with the design in hand of 1974. The introduction of maican, and Haitian accents. by Marvel art director John Wolverine in the pages of The called me in one Romita and the idea and defi- Incredible Hulk #s 180, 181, day and said, ‘I hate you be- nition under the supervision and 182 would catapult the cause you do great accents of Roy Thomas and Len Wein, character into comic book im- and I can’t, and I’d love to hear Herb Trimpe brought the char- mortality and be the defining what you’d do with a Canadian acter to life, first as a cameo at moment of the Bronze Age, as accent. And so I have a name, of Hulk #180, and then Spider-Man was to the Silver Wolverine.’ And I went and re- as full story material in Hulk #s Age. 35 year old Herb Trimpe, searched wolverines to find 181 and 182. “The way I see it, now seven years into his in- out that they are short, hairy, Romita and Len Wein sewed comparable run on The Incred- ferocious animals with razor- the monster together and I Wolverine commission ible Hulk, was asked to bring sharp claws and no fear, who shocked it to life! It was just drawing by Trimpe. to life a Canadian by would take on creatures ten one of those secondary or ter- Courtesy of Sean Rutan. the name of Logan, a.k.a. Wol- times their size . It’s as easy tiary characters, actually, that verine. Equipped with the un- a character as I’ve ever cre- we were using in that particular canny ability to rapidly recover ated. And the funny thing is, I book with no particular notion from injuries, Wolverine also thought I did a terrible Cana- of it going anywhere. We did has the ability to be a vicious dian accent. I decided to use characters in The Incredible fighter, complete with retract- him in the Hulk simply because Hulk all the time that were in able claws that spring forward it seemed like a good place to particular issues and that was from the back of his hands. His use him. I made him a mutant the end of them,” Trimpe re- body’s skeleton is reinforced because I knew there was talk members. Little did anyone re- by a fictitious metal known as of eventually reviving the X- alize that the Wolverine would , making him virtu- Men as an international group become the signature char- ally indestructible. of mutants, and I figured it acter of Marvel’s best selling When asked about shar- would give whoever ended up book for decades to come— ing how the Wolverine came writing the book a Canadian the X-Men.

58 Trimpe’s HHulkulk Rogue’sRogues Gallery

Over the years of drawing The Incredible Hulk, Trimpe put his mark on a number of classic villains and created some new characters as well. Here is a “rogues gallery” of some of the friends and foes of the Hulk as rendered by Trimpe.

65 LEFT: Cover of The Incredible Hulk #115 by Trimpe and featuring the . RIGHT: Cover of The Incredible Hulk #168 by Trimpe featuring the Harpy (a.k.a. .) BELOW: Detail from page 4 of The Incredible Hulk #108 by Trimpe and featuring the . Courtesy Heritage Auctions.

67 Inking Trimpe Gallery

Even with fully rendered pencils, the inker can have a tremendous impact on the appearance of a finished comic book page. Trimpe had the opportunity to work with a variety of inkers, among them . In an 1983 interview by in issue #7 of Comics Interview magazine, Abel comments, “I enjoyed doing The [Incredible] Hulk with Herb Trimpe a lot. Trimpe is of the Jack Kirby school, which, believe it or not, I’m not one of the great admirers of, although I can see why it was suc- cessful. But Trimpe did a completely professional job, and anyone who does that is easy to ink. He put down in pencil what was supposed to be there­—no scribbles, everything sharply defined, easy to ink.” Able goes on to remark, “I always did think that Severin’s inks over Trimpe’s Hulk pencils were really incredible. Of course, as I know from working with him, Trimpe is a stickler for authenticity himself, and really knows equipment and weaponry. I am thinking particularly of one Hulk story where the Hulk was in a parallel di- mension where World War II was going on. I thought that it was about as good artwork as I have ever seen.”

What follows are examples from the various artists, includ- ing Abel, who inked Trimpe’s pencils over the years.

ABOVE: Detail from The Incredible Hulk #193 page 16 by Trimpe and . INSET: Hulk sketch by Jack Abel. LEFT: From the splash page to The Incredible Hulk #171 by Trimpe with Jack Abel inks. Courtesy of Stephen Moore.

77 Thomas on Trimpe An Interview with Roy Thomas

Roy Thomas was editor and writer at Marvel Comics for many years, taking over the reins from Stan Lee. In this interview, Roy talks about Marvel Comics and working with Trimpe on The Incredible Hulk.

Dewey Cassell: How did you first meet Herb? made it both an Avengers and a Hulk. I was very Roy Thomas: I don’t recall except that he came enthusiastic about it, and I was quite happy with to work there in the office. He was a buddy of the outcome. ABOVE: Roy Thomas from [John] Verpoorten, but I can’t remember which of Cassell: Wasn’t it somewhat unusual at the time the 2004 Heroes Con in them came first. I think he started out working in to use an author from outside of comics? Charlotte, NC. the stat room, and then he was doing corrections Thomas: Well, sometimes I went after a par- BELOW: Cover art to The and different things. He was probably in a differ- ticular person because I wanted to. For example, Incredible Hulk #129 by ent room than I was, but of course there were getting John Jakes to do a couple of plots for Trimpe featuring the , a only two or three rooms at that time. He was and Kull. That was my idea, because he favorite of Roy Thomas. about my age, so I got to know him somewhat, was writing , and I thought it Courtesy Heritage Auctions. but we were always busy at the office, so I think would be good to bring him in. we just exchanged a few words here and there. Cassell: Why do you think Herb lasted so long on We got along well, but we didn’t socialize, really. The Incredible Hulk? Cassell: You wrote quite a few of the Hulk stories that he drew. Were you using the Marvel Method at that time? Thomas: Yes. We would just talk it over. Some books I wrote a plot for, two or three pages, especially if it was somebody not in the office, like Buscema. With Herb I doubt if I ever did, and certainly not often. With Herb or Marie, we just sat down and talked for a while and got the general direction, some of the plot, and then he’d start drawing. And if he needed to talk to me about anything else, if he hit a snag, or he wanted to clarify something, or something wasn’t work- ing, all he had to do was say so, and then we’d talk and work it out. Although I don’t think that happened often. Cassell: Do you know what prompted ’s Hulk story about “The Brute that Shouted Love at the Heart of the ”? Thomas: Of course, it was Harlan’s idea to do that particular story. I don’t know if Stan had talked to Harlan, but I did know Harlan slightly. I’d met him a few times here and there, at con- ventions in New York. I was in touch with him, and he submitted his idea, and I thought it was great. Harlan had submitted the Jarella story as a single issue, but I decided we should stretch it over two issues, because it seemed a bit much to force into one story of 20 or so pages. So we

81 The Other Heroes

While he may be best known for his work on the Hulk, Trimpe drew a lot of other characters for Marvel Comics, from the tiniest of heroes to Marvel’s flagship character. His tenure varied from a few months to several years, but in each case, he brought the character to life with his remarkable story- telling ability. Among the Marvel characters most influenced by Trimpe are Ant-Man, Captain Britain, Iron Man, the Defenders, and Spider-Man. He talks here about some of these Marvel characters (and some not from Marvel) that received the Trimpe touch.

Cassell: While you were working on The Incredible did in two or three days, penciled, if you could call Hulk, you picked up some other artwork assign- it that, and inked. Including the cover, and it looks ments as well, like Nick , Agent of . it. Nice thing about Iron Man is that the armor Trimpe: Well, at one point, the office was very was fairly simple, something that I’m sure was a close to our apartment in the city. I delivered break for me considering some of the other more ABOVE: Ant-Man from the work by hand and sometimes came into the complicated stuff I was involved in. splash page in office to work since I was nearby. So, especially Cassell: Did living in England lead to drawing #4 by Trimpe. Courtesy of if you were close at hand, you could always pick Captain Britain? Nick Katradis. up extra things to do. There was always some- Trimpe: I was in the UK, in Cornwall, actually, and BELOW: Close-up of thing that had to be done or somebody who had I met up with at some point, on Rider from issue #60 by missed a deadline or corrections to be made. It the beach, walking and talking, and whether we Trimpe and . was pretty straightforward. had discussed Captain Britain, or that discussion Cassell: How did you get involved with Iron Man? only came later after we were back in the states, Trimpe: I was living in England at the time and I I can’t really say. was talking to John [Verpoorten] on the phone. I Cassell: What was your next assignment? said, “Look, I don’t want to do The Incredible Hulk Trimpe: The next thing I got might have been the any more. I want to do something else.” He said, beginning of doing Defenders, Godzilla, and Sho- “Well, we don’t have anything else right now, but I gun Warriors, all at once. I was doing three books can get somebody else to do the next Hulk.” And at the same time—for two years in a row, I think. I was so tired of doing it that I said, “Okay.” So in Cassell: Did you get involved with the Defenders the meantime, while I was waiting for something because of your association with the Hulk? to come through, I did an inventory Iron Man [sto- Trimpe: I don’t think the Hulk had anything to ry] on my own and sent in the 20 penciled pages do with me drawing The Defenders. [It was] just with notes in the columns, because I plotted another hole in the dike that somebody had to and almost wrote the story in the columns. And put their finger in. John got kind of annoyed and pissed off. He said, Cassell: What was your impression of them as a “Don’t do that any more.” Luckily, it happened to super-hero team? fall right in the place where they needed an in- Trimpe: Back when I was doing The Defend- ventory in Iron Man. I think that was the reason, ers, which I enjoyed quite a bit, if someone had but the fact is they printed it in the run almost asked me what team I would choose for success immediately. between the X-Men and the Defenders, I would Cassell: You drew Iron Man a dozen times over have said the Defenders, hands down. I’ve made the years. Did you enjoy drawing the Armored many choices like that over time. Maybe it wasn’t Avenger? the X-Men characters at all. Maybe it was in the Trimpe: I drew Iron Man a dozen times? Time flies name. Picture it. If the X-Men had been called the when you’re having fun, I guess. “Enjoy” is prob- Defenders, and the Defenders called the X-Men, I ably not the word, as those jobs were probably believe things would have turned out differently. in a rush. I can remember in particular one story I The Defenders were more varied and fun.

86 SPOTLIGHT ON Ant-Man With Roy Thomas

Marvel Feature debuted in story in issue #44 of Iron Man, 1971 as a bi-monthly forum for six months previously. Thomas trying out new characters (or felt it was time to try it again, more accurately new combina- “I know that I had wanted to tions of characters and varia- do Ant-Man more than most, tions on existing characters) because I just felt like he was before giving them their own a good character and I thought book. It was in concept, if not it’d be good to bring him back. I in format, similar to DC Com- think at one stage I was actu- ics’ , which was first ally hoping I could write it, but published in 1956. Former Mar- that proved impossible.” So vel Comics editor and writer Thomas tapped Roy Thomas explains the mo- to write the new Ant-Man sto- tivation behind a try-out book, ries and artist Herb Trimpe to “Stan wanted to do a bunch of illustrate them. Thomas edited them. , Mar- the series going forward. vel Feature, Marvel Spotlight. That Trimpe got the as- They were all his ideas, and his signment was circumstantial, titles. In the early ’70s we were but he was glad to have it. “It just trying to get an increased was a matter of availability, tins cans down the river, which place on the [news]stand. [but] I really liked the idea of was really just runoff water ABOVE LEFT: Art from the That’s the period when we be- Ant-Man. I was crazy about The from a rainstorm. They lived in retelling of Ant-Man’s origin in gan to actually outsell DC in Incredible Shrinking Man, any- houses in the woods up in what Marvel Feature #4 by Trimpe. terms of number of books.” thing that put an individual in they considered to be trees, Courtesy of Nick Katradis. The first characters to ap- a place where everything was but to us would be considered ABOVE: Splash page detail pear in Marvel Feature were not so gigantic and it takes half weeds or bushes. I thought it from Marvel Feature #6 new, but the notion of them a day to cross the room—or was great. In fact, when I was penciled by Herb Trimpe and working together was. The first anything to do with insects, doing a lot of writing, I actually inked by brother Mike. issue of the title featured the for that matter. I loved fan- came up with a story that was BELOW: Tag line from the debut of The Defenders, star- tasy writing where people rode along those same lines. It was cover of Marvel Feature #4. ring the Hulk, , the backs of ants. I think it about a teenager that wound and the Sub-Mariner. Fan reac- all started with the New York up getting really small and the tion to the team was positive, Daily News years ago. They battles took place between so after three issues in Marvel had a half page feature called ant tribes. So when the pros- Feature, the Defenders got The Teeny-Weenies. There was pect came up to do Ant-Man, I their own title. always like a cut-out of one of said, ‘Yeah, it’ll be great.’” When the Defenders the characters that you could Marvel Feature turned out cleared out of Marvel Feature, paste on cardboard and then to be a family affair, as Trimpe Ant Man moved in. Ant-Man fold back the base and they explains, “I liked working with had starred in the split-book would stand up, so you could it. And then my brother Mike, Tales to Astonish in the mid- collect them from Sunday to who at the time was a graphic 1960s and was a founding Sunday. I had a whole lot of designer, he got a little slow at member of the Avengers, but them and they lived in a micro- work so he did the inking of two his most recent appear- world. They were big enough to issues, maybe three, of Ant- ance had been in a backup sit in a thimble and they rode Man. If I asked to ink the work,

89 Licensed Characters

Other than The Incredible Hulk, the comics Trimpe was most closely associated with were based on characters licensed by Marvel Comics from toy manufacturers and movie companies, such as G.I. Joe and Godzilla. The advantage in publishing comics based on licensed characters was instant recogni- tion among readers already familiar with the original product. In this interview, Trimpe talks about how ABOVE: Detail from Shogun he started illustrating the licensed characters, which ones he enjoyed (and which ones he didn’t). Warriors #19 by Trimpe. Courtesy Heritage Auctions. Cassell: How did you get involved in drawing the licensed work of various toys—like Godzilla and BELOW: Splash page art from licensed characters? G.I. Joe and and Shogun Warriors, issue #7 of Godzilla by Trimpe Trimpe: I’ve got a feeling these are going to and I was quite happy about that. And I think and . Courtesy be the tough questions because they weren’t that’s probably why I got it. When I was substi- Heritage Auctions. major long-term bits of business… but let’s see. tute teaching, I was always getting called into I wasn’t that interested in super-heroes. I didn’t the middle school. I knew all the teachers, so actually draw many super-heroes. It was mostly I said, “Why am I always in the middle school? I the Hulk, which is not a super-hero, due to per- never get calls for the high school. “ They said, sonality and all, which suited me fine. I did a lot of “It’s because you’re willing to do it, that’s why. A lot of people don’t want to work in the middle school.” So that’s why I think maybe I wound up with all the licensed stuff, because nobody else wanted to do it. They weren’t cool. Toys, you know? It wasn’t cool stuff. But the laugh is on them, because now, all the licensed stuff I did, they make movies out of. Cassell: Were the licensed characters easier or more difficult to do? Trimpe: The things that were most difficult were when I started to do some of the licensed stuff and you had these multiple characters. To me and just about every artist, that was a nightmare— nothing against the characters themselves on an individual basis, but doing the group stuff, es- pecially if it involves a lot of high tech and a lot of reference like G.I. Joe or Transformers did, then it was just horrible. Cassell: What about Godzilla? Trimpe: Godzilla, I don’t know [how I got it]. It was another licensed character and I probably picked that up because I needed work and/or nobody else wanted to do it. The licensed characters did not appeal [to some artists], especially to a lot of the newer guys. Nobody wanted to rehash Godzilla. So most of the work I wound up with, especially on the secondary characters, had to do with availability. I was there and they needed somebody to do it. There wasn’t a whole lot of thought [to it] and nobody was particularly ear-

104 SPOTLIGHT ON G.I. Joe With Larry Hama

Hassenfeld Brothers intro- Joe Special Missions.” G.I. Joe ic end. Bob Prupis, Kirk Bozigian duced G.I. Joe in 1964 and Special Missions was a second and Ron Rudat where the guys I “America’s movable fighting G.I. Joe comic book series that dealt with, and they were a fine man” enjoyed tremendous began in 1986. and sterling bunch.” success until 1978, ultimately had an ulterior Herb Trimpe was integrally succumbing to the high cost motive for the comic book, as involved with both Marvel G.I. of petroleum required to manu- Hama elaborates, “The thing Joe comic series from the be- facture the 11 ½ inch action to understand, is that the only ginning. Hama explains, “On figure. But in 1982, spurred by reason the comic existed, was Special Missions, I am pretty the success of Kenner’s Star so that Hasbro could produce sure Herb drew every issue Wars line, Hasbro reintroduced four animated commercials and he may have even scripted G.I. Joe as a 3 ¾ inch action for four specific issues in the one. He did script at least two figure, together with a new en- first year’s run. The commer- of A Real American Hero is- emy, . Key to the adver- cials were supposedly for the sues.” Trimpe drew many of the tising strategy of the company Marvel Comic, so by dint of the early A Real American Hero is- was the simultaneous launch First Amendment, the network sues as well, interiors and cov- of a new G.I. Joe comic book, could not dictate how many ers. Hama and Trimpe also pro- published by Marvel Comics. seconds of animation it con- duced a four-part mini-series The new Marvel comic tained, the way they did with in 1986 called The G.I. Joe Or- book, G.I. Joe, A Real Ameri- toy commercials. Of course, der of Battle, which was an ex- can Hero, was written by Larry the comic commercial was re- haustive inventory/catalog of Hama, beginning an associa- ally a stealth toy commercial, the characters and equipment tion with the Joes that con- as it contained all the toys and in the G.I. Joe “universe.” Trim- tinues to this day. The rela- figures Hasbro wanted to push pe also illustrated a G.I. Joe and tionship between Hasbro and that month. I designed the four the Transformers mini-series, Marvel was somewhat unique covers that were used in the which was written by Michael in its flexibility, which afforded ads and I had a list of the char- Higgins. More recently, Trimpe Hama a tremendous amount of acters and vehicles that had has drawn the covers for the creative license. Hama recalls, to be in that issue, so I had to new IDW Publishing version of “I was left pretty much alone, make sure those issues coin- G.I. Joe, A Real American Hero, character and general story cided with the commercials. which is written by Hama. wise, on the GI Joe book. I did Other than that (which was Hama and Trimpe have write all the file card bios on the highly beneficial to the sales, enjoyed a good relationship, backs of of the packages, so so how could I complain?), I as reflected by Hama’s reply TOP RIGHT: IDW edition of even if I didn’t design the phys- had almost free rein with the when asked what he thought G.I. Joe with Trimpe art. ical look of the Joes, I created stories—much more than any- of Trimpe’s work, “That’s a ter- ABOVE: Panels from their backgrounds, character- body else had in working on a rible question to ask! Don’t you page 29 of G.I. Joe Special izations, described their skill- licensed property book. The know that the comics commu- Missions #13 by Trimpe and sets, personalities and figured big plus was that the people I nity is like a close-knit small Andy Mushynsky. Courtesy of out their interpersonal connec- worked with from Hasbro total- town where everybody is re- Rob Pickel. tions. I also scripted nearly all ly knew what they were doing lated? That’s like asking, ‘what BELOW: Action panel from of the complete run of G.I. Joe, and “got” it right away when we do you think of your mother’s page 29 of G.I. Joe Special A Real American Hero, and G.I. explained nuances of the com- cooking?’ or ‘Do you think your Missions #11 by Trimpe. Courtesy of Rob Pickel. 106 Changing with the Times

There came a time in the early 1990s when Herb changed kind of dramatically. And I’m sure he’d deliberately changed his drawing style to more say this himself, but he seemed the most into closely align with the popular artists of the time. comic books then that I can remember; he was ABOVE: Detail from page 17 The result was interesting, but bore virtually no jazzed. First of all, he got anatomy books and of #415 by Trimpe. resemblance to the traditional Trimpe drawing studied anatomy. Because he was looking at Courtesy of Jeff Jaworski. style from the and 1980s. Still, his adapt- art by and he was into it. He would BELOW: Double page splash ability likely prolonged his tenure with Marvel and say, “This is like Jack Kirby. This is very exciting art from Avengers Annual #21 won over new fans. stuff, but the anatomy is all wrong and by Trimpe with inks by Charles Alex Trimpe recalls the change in his fa- you did it, but with correct anatomy?” I don’t Barnett and Brad Vancata. ther’s drawing style: “I read things on occasion really love all of that stuff, but it was nice that Courtesy Heritage Auctions. about the last years at Marvel where his style he was really into it.”

119 Leaving Marvel

As the saying goes, “All good things must come to an end.” In 1996, Marvel did the unthinkable and let Trimpe go, after more than 29 years in the Bullpen. In this interview, Trimpe talks about the circum- stances that led to his leaving Marvel Comics.

Cassell: I gather things changed at Marvel in only numbers that sink you, it’s attitude. They later years. had the corporate attitude that’s so prevalent ABOVE: Detail from page 18 Yes, but Tom DeFalco was particularly today in so many corporations and that’s mini- Trimpe: of The Incredible Hulk #136 supportive in keeping me working even before mize. Get the most for the least. And any of the by Trimpe and . the sh*t hit the fan. I became a nonentity to beneficiaries, cut them off as best you can and Courtesy Heritage Auctions. most editors, but in their defense, there really still keep them going for you. I think that they BELOW: Back cover of 1975 wasn’t much work available during the dark days. probably have learned their lessons since then, Marvel Con program by Trimpe. Cassell: What happened at Marvel? but I’m not really sure that any of the titles in the Trimpe: After Cadence, it went downhill. When Marvel publishing end bailed itself out. I think it it got in the hands of Revlon, they just totally was the popularity of the movies that happened bled the company dry. Tom, when he was Editor- to be coming out along through that period that In-Chief, told me an interesting story. He was at a board meeting with all the suits from Revlon and they’re doing marketing ideas and so-on and so-forth. They didn’t really know anything about comics, so they were trying to sell it like you sell cereal. If something sells, you just sell more of it. So their idea was to do more spin-offs and more titles with the successful characters and just dump everything else, or at least sideline it or support it with the profits that were made off the books that were selling. And Tom said he was sitting there and he laughed because he thought the guy was kidding. He said, “Two weeks later, I was back as a writer again and I was out as Edi- tor-In-Chief at Marvel Comics.” So that’s the kind of mentality that had started quite a while back and eventually, it led to Marvel’s Chapter 11. I always thought that one of the saving graces had to do with the numbers published and the philosophy that Stan had. Usually, if a book went one or two sales periods, two monthly periods, and it didn’t do well, it was cut. It was dropped or reduced somehow and they didn’t fool around with it. But what these guys were doing, in my understanding, they were supporting some of their lesser successful titles, with the money they were making off Spider-Man and the Hulk and X-Men. Now what that does is it stops the creative turnover. Everything goes stale. It’s like status quo, dead in the water. And I think it’s not

121 Herb Trimpe Gallery

The following pages provide a sampling of the varied artwork Trimpe has done over his lengthy career.

ABOVE LEFT: 1972 pin-up by Trimpe from the first issue of the Second Foundation. ABOVE RIGHT: Herb Trimpe at work, from the 1970 Marvel- mania Bullpen Photo Set. LEFT: Commission drawing of Wolverine and the Hulk by Trimpe. Courtesy of Thomas Suhling.

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