Parliamentary Debates (Hansard)
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Tuesday Volume 530 5 July 2011 No. 182 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Tuesday 5 July 2011 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 1349 5 JULY 2011 1350 Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): One matter of House of Commons great concern in this Chamber is that the other place is most certainly secondary to it. Does my right hon. Tuesday 5 July 2011 Friend see the opportunity to remove any ability for the other place to initiate legislation as a way to ensure the hierarchy between this place and the other place? The House met at half-past Two o’clock The Deputy Prime Minister: As we explained in our PRAYERS White Paper, we believe that the different mandates, electoral systems and terms of office, and of course the conventions enshrined in the Parliament Acts, will guarantee [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] that although there will no doubt be an evolution in the relationship between the two Houses—that is bound to happen under any arrangement—the hierarchy between Oral Answers to Questions this place and the other place will remain intact. Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): The Deputy Prime Minister has just referred to the different mandates DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER of Members of the other place, if it is reformed, and of this House. Does he not think, though, that the reforms would benefit from some clarification of those different The Deputy Prime Minister was asked— mandates, so that the essential and long-standing relationship between MPs and constituents is not eroded? House of Lords Reform The Deputy Prime Minister: We already have a system, 1. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): What of course, in which politicians are elected to different recent discussions he has had with constitutional assemblies and Parliaments with different mandates, historians and experts on House of Lords reform; and and as long as those mandates are clearly differentiated, if he will make a statement. [63487] as they would be under the proposed arrangements, there is no clash between them. Let us remember that 4. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): What recent what the Government suggest in the draft Bill is that progress he has made on his plans for House of Lords elected Members of a reformed House of Lords would reform; and if he will make a statement. [63490] represent vastly larger areas than the smaller constituencies that we in this House represent. 8. Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): What recent representations he has received on House of Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Given that in our Lords reform. [63494] debates so far no one has rushed to the defence of the hereditary principle or patronage, does my right hon. 10. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What assessment Friend not agree that if we are to make haste in delivering he has made of the recent debates in both Houses on the principles behind Lords reform, it would be best to his proposals for House of Lords reform. [63496] get on with removing the hereditary principle and patronage now? No one disagrees with that. The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): The Government have received many representations on all aspects of House of Lords reform, including from The Deputy Prime Minister: I certainly agree that we constitutional experts. We recognise that a variety of aspire to create a reform that, although evolutionary in views were expressed in recent debates in both Houses, its implementation—it will take several years rather and we are sure that the Joint Committee will take than happen overnight—will at least be comprehensive account of the debates when scrutinising the draft Bill and create a reformed House of Lords with a far greater and White Paper. mandate and democratic legitimacy than is currently the case. Penny Mordaunt: The elegance of our unwritten constitution allows it to adapt when necessary to meet a Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): In the Deputy pressing need, but change for some other reason could Prime Minister’s nirvana of 15-year terms, will he consider be regarded as constitutional vandalism. Has the Deputy ruling out Members of the newly elected other place Prime Minister reflected on the fact that if a pressing standing for this place, so that we do not have people need is not articulated, his plans for reform of the other roaming around one individual constituency trying to place might fall into the latter category? unseat the Member of Parliament by using their democratically elected 15-year position in the other The Deputy Prime Minister: I do not think it is a new place? need, and in that sense it is not a pressing need, but there is an enduring need to make decisions in this place The Deputy Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman and the other House as accountable to the British may have noticed that in the White Paper we suggest people as possible. The simple principle that those who precisely that. We suggest that there should be a cooling-off shape the laws of the land should be held to account by period of at least one term, so that those who leave the people who have to obey the laws of the land is a other place cannot instantly stand for this place. That is long-standing democratic principle. precisely to avoid the clash that he rightly identifies. 1351 Oral Answers5 JULY 2011 Oral Answers 1352 Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Does the The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Deputy Prime Minister have a view on Lord Steel’s Harper): The Fixed-term Parliaments Bill has been suggestion that a payment of £30,000 should be made debated almost fully in both Houses. We have received to enable Lords to retire? representations from the public, and I feel sure that, very shortly, another will emanate from the hon. Gentleman. The Deputy Prime Minister: We are not in favour of that, but we are in favour of many provisions of Lord Nic Dakin: Leading constitutional expert Vernon Steel’s private Member’s Bill and look forward to Bogdanor said: incorporating many of its transitional arrangements “If we are entering a world of hung parliaments, there is no and so on into the Government Bill. reason for dissolutions to be made more difficult.” Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does the Is the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill designed to serve Deputy Prime Minister not understand that even those short-term, coalition political interests rather than the of us who support Lords reform cannot help wondering long-term interests of the British people? whether he has masochistic tendencies in trying to win this fight with one hand tied behind his back, and with Mr Harper: Not at all. I know the opinions of Vernon the Prime Minister simply holding his coat and egging Bogdanor very well, because he was my tutor. He and I him on from the sidelines? Does he believe that he has disagreed while we were at university, and we continue the overwhelming support of his coalition partners to to do so on many matters now. The Bill is very much in steer the Bill through both Houses? If not, is he not just the interests of Parliament, and of having a stable wasting— situation in which the Prime Minister, for the first time, has given up the power to call an election to suit his Mr Speaker: Order. We are extremely grateful to the political party. That is a huge constitutional improvement. hon. Gentleman. Electoral Register The Deputy Prime Minister: I remind the hon. Gentleman that all parties went to the country in last year’s general election with a clear manifesto commitment to reform 3. Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): What the House of Lords. As I have said, it does not strike steps he is taking to increase the completeness and most people as a radical suggestion that the democratic accuracy of the electoral register. [63489] principle that operates in Parliaments around the world should gently and incrementally be applied to the other The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark place. Harper): My hon. Friend will know that last Thursday the Government published their White Paper and draft Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Do the Government’s legislation on individual electoral registration, to improve proposals for the House of Lords include excluding both the accuracy of the electoral register and its peers not from England on voting on matters solely completeness. related to England? Simon Kirby: Does the Minister agree with me and The Deputy Prime Minister: We have not addressed the many people in Brighton Kemptown who believe that in the White Paper. If people want to discuss it in that accuracy and completeness are very important if the Joint Committee, they are free to do so. fraud and malpractice are to be avoided? Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Has my Mr Harper: I very much agree with my hon. Friend. right hon. Friend read the debates in which the argument We made it very clear in our proposals that we are was advanced that the House of Lords does its job, and interested in reducing the vulnerability of our electoral therefore should not be changed in any way? If so, did register to fraud and in ensuring its accuracy.