3208392001 Page Type [SO] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence

Taken before the Scottish Affairs Committee

on Tuesday 8 November 2005

Members present:

Mr Mohammad Sarwar, in the Chair

Danny Alexander Mr Jim McGovern Gordon Banks Mr Angus MacNeil Ms Katy Clark David Mundell Mr Ian Davidson Mr Charles Walker Mr John MacDougall Mr Ben Wallace

Memorandum submitted to the Scottish AVairs Committee by the British Olympic Association

The British Olympic Association (“BOA”) welcomes the decision of the Scottish AVairs Select Committee to hold an inquiry into the potential benefits for Scotland of the London 2012 Olympic Games. As the National Olympic Committee for the United Kingdom, the BOA believes that Scotland will undoubtedly benefit from the sporting and economic boost that the Games will give to the whole country. London 2012 (of which the BOA is one of the three key stakeholders, with the Government and the Mayor of London) will take the lead in responding to the Committee’s invitation to comment on the detailed points of your inquiry. However we thought we would take this opportunity to very briefly touch on the BOA’s role for your benefit. The BOA is the voice of sport within the London 2012 structure. It is the BOA’s priority to ensure that Team GB delivers its best ever results at the London 2012 Olympic Games and that a sporting legacy is delivered. Indeed a recent strategic framework review agreed a new aim for the BOA—namely to lead the largest and most competitive Team GB to 4th place in the 2012 medal table whilst developing the Olympic movement in the UK. It is important that the United Kingdom continues to come together to send one team, Team GB, to the Olympic Games, rather than having separate teams from the Home Nations. There are two main reasons for this. First, the International Olympic Committee determines the basis upon which we should participate. It is the IOC who has determined that the BOA’s jurisdiction is Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In fact under the Olympic Charter, it is clear that the IOC will only consider granting National Olympic Committee status to “an independent state recognised by the international community”. Therefore the BOA is obliged by the IOC to lead a delegation to the Olympic Games representing the whole of the United Kingdom. Secondly, we strongly believe that by being able to call upon athletes from around the United Kingdom there is, obviously, a greater pool of talent upon which we can draw to ensure that we are fielding the best team possible, so enhancing the United Kingdom’s medal winning prospects. The BOA believes that devolved teams at Olympic level would seriously dilute the limited funding available and the structure of British sport would become increasingly fragmented. It would also result in a small number of collectively qualified athletes and less medals being won collectively by British athletes a the Olympic Games. Whilst we are aware that this particular issue is not one identified in the invitation to make a submission, we thought it would be opportune to address you briefly on this issue as it is often raised. 28 September 2005

Memorandum submitted to the Scottish AVairs Committee by the London Organising Committee for the Olympic Games

1. Introduction 1.1 This is a submission by the London Organising Committee for the Olympic Games (LOCOG). 1.2 LOCOG is responsible for planning, organising and staging the 2012 Olympic Games and Paralympic Games and is the successor of London 2012 Ltd, the organisation which led London’s successful bid for the 2012 Olympic Games and Paralympic Games. 3208392002 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 2 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

1.3 LOCOG is committed to the delivery of an outstanding Olympic Games and Paralympic Games in London in 2012. This commitment extends to an unprecedented strategy to engage the whole of the United Kingdom in the Games, and to ensuring that, in whatever way possible, we open up the opportunities that hosting the Games bring to all sports, communities, businesses throughout the UK. We believe that the broader representation and involvement of the UK in the Games will not only directly contribute to the Games themselves, but will allow for those benefits to be maximised by all.

2. Delivering the London 2012 Games—Roles and Responsibilities 2.1 LOCOG is responsible for planning, organising and staging the 2012 Games. It will be almost entirely privately financed with an operating budget of £1.5 billion at 2004 prices, drawn from a combination of IOC broadcast rights and The Olympic Partner (TOP) programme, tickets sales, and LOCOG sponsors and licensing. LOCOG will specify the requirements for staging the London Games and will be the central point of contact with the IOC. 2.2 The Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) will be created by the London Olympics Bill and will be responsible for ensuring delivery of the venues and infrastructure for the Games. The ODA’s Olympic specific works will be financed from a public funding package of £2.375 billion at out-turn prices and is separate and distinct from the LOCOG budget. 2.3 The Olympic Board will comprise the Olympic Minister, the Mayor of London and the Chairmen of the British Olympic Association and LOCOG. The Board will coordinate the work of LOCOG, Government and the ODA.

3. Background 3.1 It was an early priority for London 2012 to establish a framework to engage the whole of the UK and to deliver the highest levels of public support for the Bid. This needed to be established quickly and with reference to existing structures, without seeking to create a new network from scratch. 3.2 The Nations and Regions Group (NRG) was implemented by the London 2012 bid team as the best vehicle to achieve this. Charles Allen, vice-chairman of London 2012 and CEO of ITV, agreed to act as Chairman. Scottish representation was sought via a request to the First Minister for nominations to serve on the NRG. 3.3 The NRG contributed significantly to raising public awareness and support for the bid across the UK. LOCOG has consulted on the future of this group, and it is clear that there is a commitment to see it continue and evolve into a Group that works together to secure the maximum UK-wide benefits related to 2012 such as preparation camps, tourism, and contracting opportunities. 3.4 The work of the NRG was supported by a wider programme of communications initiatives by London 2012, including media campaigns, visits by London 2012 leadership and ambassadors, the development of education materials for use in schools, and more specific initiatives led by the NRG—the hosting of a UK Opportunities Conference and publication of a brochure highlighting the strength of oVer the whole UK could make to the Olympic Family. 3.5 LOCOG would like to express gratitude for the support and contribution to date of the First Minister; Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport; the Scottish Executive and delivery agencies, including through the establishing of a dedicated, high-level working group.

4. Benefits/Opportunities Winning the 2012 Olympic Games and Paralympic Games would provide an unparalleled opportunity to contribute to the UK’s sporting, cultural, economic, social and environmental objectives. These benefits and opportunities include: 4.1 Boosting sport—The Games will encourage the acceleration of the delivery of a new world-class sports infrastructure for the UK. As a direct consequence, four arenas and five swimming pools used during the Games will be relocated to other parts of the UK, and all sports equipment used will be given to sports clubs and charities across the UK. The Games is likely to generate unprecedented levels of interest from business and local authorities across the UK that could open up further channels of funding for sport at all levels, and the lead up to the Games could be used by those involved in sport to inspire a new generation. 4.2 Business Opportunities—The Sydney experience showed that New South Wales business won the equivalent of £400 million in contracts, of which over £115 million was for regional companies with 55,000 people receiving employment related training. Companies of all sizes and in a huge range of sectors will be able to seek contracts, and those companies that win business will be well placed to bid for future Olympic and other major event contracts. Estimates suggest 7,000 full-time equivalent jobs will be created in the construction industry and provide opportunities for an enhanced training and skills development programme. 3208392002 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 3

4.3 Tourism—Australia recorded an additional 1.6 million visitors spending over £2 billion between 1997 and 2001 and the Sydney convention and exhibition sector saw a 78% increase in international visitors. Through significant exposure to a global TV audience of 4 billion, the UK tourism industry will receive a significant boost—before, during and after 2012. A Working Group to develop a strategy to make the most of these opportunities will be established by stakeholders working with LOCOG. 4.4 Preparation Camps—The Australian experience shows that Queensland—1,000 kilometres from Sydney—hosted 179 teams from 48 countries, including Team GB who spent around £1 million. Around 125 teams from 39 countries undertook pre-Games training across New South Wales injecting the equivalent of £26 million into the State’s economy. If a similar programme of preparation camps could be delivered they could be significant investment in local communities across the UK. A Working Group to develop a strategy to make the most of these opportunities for the whole of the United Kingdom has been established by LOCOG with other stakeholders. 4.5 Volunteering—Approximately 70,000 volunteers drawn from across the UK and beyond would be required providing a unique boost both to sport specific, and general, volunteering in the UK. A full Volunteer Strategy is being put in place. 4.6 Arts, culture and education—The Cultural Programme will begin with Liverpool City of Culture 2008 and will be a major aspect of the Games. A UK-wide Olympic Torch Relay in 2012 is likely to last several months and involve every major city and town in the UK. There will be an educational and youth programme for all of the UK’s children in the years leading up to 2012. Initiatives will include an Athlete Ambassador programme for schools and community groups to personify the values for the Olympic ideal; development of a range of educational material based upon Olympic values to support the National Curriculum; a young Ambassador’s programme focused on the most deprived areas in the UK to help young people develop language skills and equip participants to act as volunteers. 4.7 Environmental legacy—The Games would set new standards for sustainable production, consumption and recycling of natural resources that would provide a benchmark for projects throughout the United Kingdom.

5. Involvement of Scotland in the Bid 5.1 Business—Scottish business made a significant contribution to our Bid, with Edinburgh-based company Navy Blue securing the contract to design and produce the Candidate File submitted to the IOC and worth in excess of £700,000. This was one of the biggest contracts placed by London 2012. A further significant contract to produce London 2012 branded material, in particular flags and banners, was secured by another Scottish firm, Hi-Fli. Assistance on public relations, in Scotland as well as other parts of the UK was provided by Pagoda PR on a consultancy basis. This involvement gives Navy Blue, Hi-Fli and Pagoda not just a platform to market themselves internationally, but means that they have direct experience of and insight into the process of bidding for major events, further strengthening their ability to secure further work. 5.2 Political support—the Bid team received strong support from the main political parties in the UK, and in particular from the First Minister in Scotland, along with the Scottish Executive who provided a strategic lead through the working group established at the First Minister. The working group engaged Scottish agencies including the Executive, sportscotland, Visit Scotland, Event Scotland, Scottish Enterprise and others. Representatives from this group sat on the London 2012 Nations & Regions Group, providing clear links between the Bid and Scotland. 5.3 Public support—It was critical to be able to demonstrate high levels of support for the Games throughout the UK to the IOC. We were able to do this by showing that at the time of the IOC’s own polling, popular support in Scotland was over 70%—a figure higher than that in London at the same time. Scottish agencies assisted the Bid team to generate, coordinate and conduct support activity. Another crucial aspect of this work was the generous endorsement and support we received for the Bid from many Scottish athletes. Shirley Robertson, Chris Hoy and Rhona Martin were amongst many whose backing was vital. 5.4 Venues—In order to meet with the expectations of the IOC in terms of delivering a compact Games, the London 2012 bid developed a blueprint that, where possible, accommodated as many of the events and related venues as close to the proposed Olympic Park in the East End of London. This is the reason why the opportunity to take events around the rest of the UK proved limited. The exception to this is the association football tournament. The parameters for football meant that we were able to distribute venues across the UK, and we are delighted that Hampden Park, as a world-class venue, will be part of the Games.

6. Next Steps 6.1 LOCOG is committed to developing the opportunity the Games present to build interest and participation in sport across the UK. The Nations & Regions Group will meet in its new format for the first time in November 2005 under the chairmanship of Charles Allen. New terms of reference and a project plan will be discussed at the first meeting. Membership will include direct representation from Scotland, along with Wales, Northern Ireland and the English Regions. Scotland will agree its own representative, creating 3208392003 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 4 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

a link from the Scottish Working Group on the Games established at the discretion, ultimately, of the First Minister. LOCOG, through the NRG, will oVer a suggested approach to the operation of the Scottish Working Group, however its composition and remit will, appropriately, remain a matter for the Executive and partners in Scotland. 6.2 The NRG will link into appropriate structures that will lead on the various “themes” emerging, including tourism, business opportunities and preparation camps. There will be direct representation within these structures from both LOCOG and NRG, which will provide co-ordinated, strategic guidance. 6.3 The Scottish Working Group will appoint its own membership and agree its own plan for ensuring Scotland gains benefit from the Games. LOCOG, through the NRG will provide the coordinated framework for developing these opportunities; however the responsibility for the broader commercial benefits to Scotland will remain dependent on the extent to which Scottish agencies and Scottish companies are prepared to take advantage of them. As outlined above, they would include preparation camps, tourism, Scottish companies winning business, and delivery on volunteering and cultural agendas. However Scottish companies and agencies have already showed that they are ahead of the game by winning work with the Bid. 6.4 One key area of cooperation will be Glasgow’s bid for the Commonwealth Games in 2014. A meeting between the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport, Patricia Ferguson MSP and relevant LOCOG personnel has already been set up to discuss how London’s bid can be of direct benefit in a range of ways to Glasgow. 5 October 2005

Witnesses: Mr Simon Clegg, Chief Executive, Ms Sara Friend, Director of Legal Services, British Olympic Association, Mr Mike Lee, Director of Communications and Public AVairs and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE, Olympic double gold medallist, London Organising Committee for the Olympic Games, examined.

Q1 Chairman: I would like to welcome you to this Mr Lee: Yes, Chairman. The Nations and Regions first meeting of the Scottish AVairs Committee on Group was created by London 2012 as a very our inquiry into the potential benefits for Scotland important part of the bid process itself. It is not of the 2012 Olympics. We are delighted that you something we have simply invented following the have been able to attend, and could I give a IOC decision on the 6 July. That was important to us particular welcome to one of Scotland’s greatest ever because while, obviously, you bid as a city, the IOC Olympians, Shirley Robertson. As we said in our insists that the events are as compact as possible in press release announcing the inquiry, we welcome and around the city. Certainly for Seb Coe and the the announcement that Hampden Park will play whole team we were very clear that this was a UK- host to part of the football tournament, but we are wide bid and we wanted to realise UK-wide benefits. seeking to identify how Scotland might attract other The Nations and Regions Group, chaired by events, or facilitate athletes training and preparing Charles Allen, who you may know is the Chief for their events, in order to benefit local economies. Executive of ITV, drawing from representatives Before we start on the detailed questions, do you from each of the nations and each of the regions of have an opening statement you would like to make? the UK met throughout the bid process and played Mr Clegg: Chairman, I think it might just be helpful a very important part in promoting the bid and if I introduce the rest of the top table, but after that exploring with us the potential benefits to the UK. introduction of Shirley I think we will leave her to Following our victory on 6 July we brought the Y take all the di cult questions. My name is Simon Group back together within a week or so of us Clegg. I am the Chief Executive of the British returning to London from Singapore and we made Olympic Association. I am a board member of the a decision, also in conjunction with the Government London Olympic Bid Committee and a board and with our other stakeholders, BOA and the GLA, member of the London Organising Committee for that we should try and move the Nations and the Olympic Games. On my right is my colleague, Regions Group on to become a body directly Sara Friend, who is the BOA’s Director of Legal involved in delivering these UK benefits, no longer AVairs. On my left is Mike Lee. Mike, perhaps you just a promotional campaigning body but something would like to introduce yourself. Mr Lee: I am the Director of Communications and directly involved in helping to realise the benefits. Public AVairs for the London Organising We asked all our colleagues in the nations and Committee of the Olympic Games and I held the regions, and relevant to you through the Scottish same post for London 2012 throughout the bid Executive, for representatives to be almost re-elected campaign. I also have responsibility within the but with a view to a focus on the whole issue of Organising Committee for overseeing the work of delivering opportunities and potential benefits. In our Nations and Regions Group which I will happily Scotland’s case the main representative is Julia spend a bit more time talking to the Committee Bracewell, who is the chair of sportscotland, and I about as we go through the hearing. think is appearing before you shortly, and her deputy is David Williams who is the CEO of Q2 Chairman: We understand that the Nations and EventScotland. We held a very successful meeting. It Regions Group met last Friday. Are you able to was a meeting mapping out a work programme, report on any decisions reached or progress made by looking at how we could develop co-ordinated the Group? approaches on everything from training camps to 3208392003 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 5

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE tourism. The body will meet on a very regular basis. Q4 Mr Walker: The venues you have now are Each nation or region will appoint its own full-time pretty much fixed in stone, the venues for the event co-ordinator to help service the work in the area. I as opposed to the training facilities? That is your would say that Julia and others, perhaps, will be able proposition which you took to the IOC and that is to tell you directly that the feeling we have is that what they awarded the bid on? people do want to work in partnership. We want to Mr Clegg: That is basically a legally binding make sure there is a realisation on every front and agreement between ourselves and the IOC. for us this is a very important part of LOCOG’s work. Q5 Mr MacNeil: Chairman, do you think it is fair that the responsibility is being taken away from Scotland and the regions of England and Wales Q3 Mr Walker: I have a few questions. I would like and Northern Ireland as well to help fund what to know why Scotland only got football? Surely the essentially is by its very nature a city bid? Scottish Executive was in there pitching alongside Mr Lee: I think there are diVerent dimensions to you for the four years you were preparing your bid this. There is the actual staging of the Games itself to make sure Scotland got a bit of the action? I and where the events of the 17 days of the Olympics think we might be arriving after the horse has actually takes place, and obviously important for bolted because you have decided on the venues us as well is the Paralympics. Then there is the now, and I think there is a feeling around this room seven-year build up and the opportunities that that Scotland has not got enough out of this. I come out of construction contracts, tourism would like to know why it has not got more out of opportunities, the opportunity to host international this? Was it a failing of the Scottish Executive to conferences, pre-games sporting events, your go in and bat for Scotland and provide you with colleague mentioned training camps, preparation resources, manpower and time to ensure that some camps. We need 80,000 volunteers, we are going to more events bar a few football matches at have a UK-wide cultural festival which needs to be Hampden Park came to Scotland? developed across the whole country, that is really Mr Lee: Perhaps I will start and Simon may want the nature of an Olympic experience. We should to continue. You have to appreciate the nature of not just be focusing on the venues and the an Olympic bid and the requirements of the individual sporting events, though perhaps it is International Olympic Committee. Two things I worth noting we expect the whole of the Olympics think are worth stating. The first is that you bid as to start in Scotland since the football tournament a city, not as a country, and they are very clear traditionally starts just ahead of the opening about that. They were also very clear that following ceremony. Our plan at the moment is the first event unsuccessful bids from Manchester and should be at Hampden Park. At least symbolically Birmingham there was a strong feeling that the UK that is a way of demonstrating that. It is realising could only win with London, so it had to be a single the opportunities in the seven-year build up and city bid. The second is very clear—and the IOC has beyond that we feel the real opportunities for the done a lot of work on this: they want compact rest of the UK lie. Olympic Games with the vast majority of the sporting events in and around the bidding city. Q6 Mr MacNeil: You mentioned the construction Where you have some flexibility, which they are there, can you give the Committee examples of prepared to live with, is on sailing, because something which might be constructed in Scotland obviously if you are a land-locked city, like for the 2012 Olympics? London, then it is diYcult to have a sailing event, Mr Lee: There may be improvements to sporting and on football, where they do allow some facilities if, for example, cities or sport institutes flexibility and, indeed, are happy with the idea of were to prepare for training camps. I meant the a country-wide bid. Therefore, where we had that construction contracts that will come out of the flexibility we took sailing to Weymouth and we new Olympic Park. The capital project that is took football around the country. There is no the new Olympic Park in Lower Lea Valley in the failing of the Scottish Executive, it is rather just the East End of London is a £2° billion project and nature of the modern Olympic Games. those contracts are not for one particular part of Mr Clegg: Certainly I would just like to reinforce the country, they are there to be bid for by that. The whole ethos of the Olympic Games is companies up and down the country. The Olympic about bringing the youth of the world together. Delivery Authority, which is being created Even in terms of the plans we had in London you currently through the Olympic Bill going through will be aware that they changed from our initial Parliament, will be letting those contracts and concept, after the first report by the time of the encouraging Scottish companies to bid for those IOC’s Evaluation Commission came through contracts. London, we had to move some of the facilities, arrangements and plans. For example, the shooting Q7 Mr Davidson: I want to follow up that point at Bisley was considered too far away from the about construction contracts in particular. There is Olympic village in terms of an acceptable an anxiety that not only is this an East London commutable distance by the athletes. It is very Olympics in terms of location but that much of the much driven by the IOC and what is in the best construction work will be undertaken by labour on interest of the athletes. the lump rather than going entirely reputable. 3208392003 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 6 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE

What assurances can you give us in terms of safety, Blue, and indeed many of our banners and flags the involvement of the trade unions, is there going were done by a Scottish company, High Fly. All we to be a convenor on site? How do you believe that can say is we have a track record from the bidding Scottish companies might be able to get team and in due course those contracts will come construction contracts? on-line and be available through all the normal Mr Lee: I think it is important to understand for processes. We would encourage Scottish businesses a moment the structure that has been created. A lot to bid, bid and bid again. of the work at present that has been undertaken in the Lower Lea Valley—the land acquisition, the Q9 Mr Walker: If they are advertised in the beginning of land clearance, the start of land European Journal they could go to any country in assemblies—is with the London Development Europe? It will be done on a best value for money Agency. The LDA already has very clear cut fair basis, will it not? You cannot promote one nation employment policies. They are subject to all the over another? usual European tendering processes. They are Mr Clegg: That is the law of the land. guided by the Mayor of London, committed to recognition and involvement of trade unions. They Q10 Mr Davidson: If a Services Directive goes have themselves set out a commitment to skills and through, it can go through under a Lithuanian training programmes to encourage the right sort of company using Lithuanian laws and so on at that skills mix in the development of the East End site. stage below UK levels on health and safety and The LDA is starting this, it will then be taken over everything else, could it not? by the Olympic Delivery Authority, the ODA, Mr Lee: We are subject to whatever law is in place which as I said is currently being created and is at any given moment. All I can say from within the subject to the Bill going through Parliament. The bid team itself and certainly from the GLA, the ODA based on the commitments of the Mayor and LDA, the interim-ODA, is there is a commitment the other stakeholders involved in this, including here to realising as many benefits as we can for LOCOG, would want to make sure that continued. British business. It is not a question of getting cheap labour in from Eastern Europe or anywhere else, it will be based on best practice in the construction industry and Q11 Mr Davidson: Can I just clarify, what is this subject to all the necessary bits of legislation from commitment then? This is a commitment to try, here and from Brussels. apart from that there is no commitment? Mr Lee: I think you have to look at the work of the Nations and Regions Group because there we Q8 Mr Davidson: I am reassured by substantial are working in very direct partnership with the amounts of that in terms of what will happen on Regional Development Agencies in England, the site. In all of that it seems to me the Scottish Enterprise Scotland and all of the other relevant construction industry would not legitimately be one bodies in this process. We are trying to sit down of the stakeholders. I can understand the words with them, get them thinking creatively about the about training for the local area, I can understand sort of contracts that they will be bidding for, the points about European procurement, but none creatively about what they can oVer, for example, of that gives Scotland, necessarily, an “in” so to for preparation camps for Olympic teams coming speak in terms of construction contracts. What in, thinking about their tourism strategy, because guarantees will there be that any Scottish firm or one of the experiences certainly out of Sydney is any Scottish labourer will be employed on site? what we can gain in terms of tourist benefits Mr Lee: Put it this way, there is nobody who is in around the country. By using those partnerships, a favoured position. There is no stakeholder in any sharing information, planning together, we believe favoured position here. These are contracts which we can realise some of those UK benefits. are open for tender and for bidding. The scale of it, both in terms of the capital projects, the building Q12 Mr Wallace: Understanding the European of the new site and then what LOCOG will procure legislation, as a Committee if we want to maximise in due course, whether it is in terms of stadium, IT, how Scotland can benefit and given, obviously, that uniforms, licensed products and so on, are also almost set in stone are the Olympics, we are much contracts that will be coming on-line from around better oV focusing on venues for training for the about 2008–09 onwards. There is an ongoing build up to the pre-Games and how we can get process over seven years and there are potential Team Australia, or whatever it is, to come and huge amounts of business. I do not think we can build up in Scotland or whatever. Is that probably stand here and guarantee that Scotland will win all the best angle for us to go down, to try and get that of that business but I hope and trust that working type of visitor benefit? through Scottish Enterprise and through the Mr Clegg: Certainly it is one area. I do not want various business forums in Scotland that they are to totally negate and deflect from the other real prepared and they will bid. There will be open commercial opportunities which are available tender going on. I will just point to the bid. In the through this massive project. Quite frankly, unless bid we did not have much to oVer in terms of you have experienced an Olympic Games first contracts but one of the biggest contracts we let hand—I suspect very few of you have—it is very was the design and development of our candidate diYcult to take on the sheer scale of what is file, that was done by a Scottish company, Navy required to deliver an Olympic Games. There are 3208392003 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 7

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE some really hard commercial contracts to be won, perhaps improve their facilities in a way which we worth significant sums of money, across a whole think will work in the international market in range of product areas, capital areas and service attracting either individual Olympic Committee suppliers. I think that the point Mike is making is teams or perhaps even individual sports. There is a that it is a level playing field and we would working group that has been created and we are encourage Scottish companies, as we would indeed trying to make sure, also, that the co-ordination companies from any parts of the United Kingdom, makes the whole UK stronger because, as Simon to put in competitive bids for whatever work said, the competition in this case could come from becomes available. In terms of the more substantive France, Belgium, Spain and Germany. We need a point regarding training camps, you are absolutely UK-wide proposition here which we want to take right this has now become quite an important area to the whole Olympic movement. I just want to say of preparations. Quite frankly, the last couple of one other thing which is it is important not to rush weeks before an athlete enters into the Olympic this because the vast majority of Olympic teams village are critical in terms of their performance in have not even settled on their training camps at the Olympic arena. One of the things the British Beijing, let alone thinking about it for 2012. Olympic Association has developed internationally, Therefore, we feel very strongly that we need to really since 1996, is this concept of multi-sport make sure we have got full audit facilities, preparation camps where we will bring the whole improvements have been made in a way that is team together, in our case Team GB, or as many relevant to attracting teams for preparation and we sports as possible within the constraints of the would seek to launch this at the time of Beijing facilities we have. Of course you cannot replicate in 2008. the type of facilities you are going to see in the Olympic City. We go into the market place and secure a city or a region that can best support Team Q14 Mr MacNeil: What you are saying is the GB and other developed and sophisticated competitors from the competing cities are going to countries, and increasingly less sophisticated be all around London, including the Continent. countries, are also waking up to the fact that these Scotland or any other parts of the UK are not final two weeks are critical to their athletes really first choice. Your job, therefore, is to try and performance. There are major opportunities, not ensure committees from other countries base only for the Edinburghs, Glasgows and Stirlings of themselves in the UK rather than across the Scotland but also perhaps some of the larger towns Channel in Belgium or elsewhere? and smaller cities as well. Mr Lee: Yes. Obviously we have a vested interest in trying to make sure as many of those teams come to the UK. Most of them will want to be outside Q13 Mr Wallace: You will, therefore, have to be London because London does not provide an ideal letting contracts for eVectively a pre-training centre setting for preparation. whereby a city could provide as much of the disciplines as possible in one place? Q15 Mr MacNeil: Your concern at the moment is Mr Clegg: It does not quite work like that. how many will come to the UK and how many will Certainly LOCOG, and Mike will speak on this, base themselves in continental Europe or Ireland or will provide some co-ordinating brochure to the wherever? 202 National Olympic Committees. What you will Mr Clegg: It is diYcult to quantify that at this find is a number of the more sophisticated teams, moment in time but let us not forget that a like ourselves, will be proactive and go into the significant percentage of the Olympic movement, market place. You have to accept that we are going their second language after their mother tongue is to be competing against France, Belgium, Spain English and, therefore, you will expect to see a and Germany, maybe, for this slice of the business. significant percentage of the overall teams that It is quite important that it is organised in a co- invest in these pre-Games training doing so here in ordinated and thorough fashion. It is not just about the United Kingdom. have we or have we not got a 50 metre swimming pool, the number of sports that are covered in an Olympic programme are 26 and you have to Q16 Mr MacNeil: Would you expect more than remember that in Sydney exactly half of the 200 50% to come to the UK and Scotland? National Olympic Committees, 100 competed with Mr Clegg: I am not avoiding answering the 10 or less athletes. Many people aspire, perhaps, to question. It is very diYcult to quantify that. If you attracting China, the United States or Great Britain go back to 1996 which in relative Olympic terms is but there are smaller communities which could quite recent, three Games ago, I think that there attract some of the smaller teams as well and that were only five or six countries which did pre-Games could be their interface, contribution and support training. The situation develops each Games that for the Olympic movement in 2012. we go to. Mr Lee: As Simon hinted there we do not let the Ms Friend: It is also hard to quantify because a lot contracts. What we are trying to do—and at the of the time it is acclimatisation that is the issue. For heart of this is the Nations and Regions Group— a lot of the continental European countries they do is work together through organisations such as not have a significant time diVerence or a climate sportscotland to develop an approach which will change which will lead them to necessarily decamp encourage people to tailor their facilities and prior to the Games, unlike going to China or 3208392003 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 8 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE

Australia where it is important for us to take the should not distort the market. I think you are right British team over early for acclimatisation there is a challenge there and it is not one that purposes. LOCOG itself can resolve. Certainly in the conversations we have had with all partners, Q17 Mr MacNeil: In 1996 it was five or six stakeholders and many other agencies, they are countries, two in the last Games, in Athens, how very alive to this. I would say it is something the many? Construction Industry Training Board and many Mr Clegg: I think probably Australia is a better others need to be working on because we are talking about a major boost to the UK economy example. There were probably the best part of half V the National Olympic Committees, about 100, were with a huge demand on a number of di erent skills involved in some pre-Games training in country. areas. Everything we have been told so far leaves As my colleague said, that does represent the time us reassured. diVerence and the travelling distance people had to Mr Clegg: Certainly I would support that and the go through to get there. Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Ms Robertson: As an athlete you would want to be outlined this very issue at the Olympic Board in the UK because you want to get used to eating meeting yesterday. The Government is very bangers and mash or whatever it is, you want to conscious of it and is monitoring the situation get used to that. I think in Scotland we are quite carefully. well placed now. If I was coming from abroad I would seriously look at Scotland. We have the Q19 Danny Alexander: I would like to get back to Institute in Stirling; Glasgow and Edinburgh have this issue about training camps. You talked about good facilities but also regionally because of the the Sydney Olympics and obviously the British development of the Scottish Institute regionally in team was based in Queensland, a good few hundred Dundee and in Largs, really good regional facilities miles away from Sydney. What factors influenced and not just sports facilities but sports medicine that choice? Were there any incentives oVered by and physiology, all of the kinds of things which as the authorities in Australia to encourage teams to a team you would look for. I think, also, one area base themselves in more peripheral parts of is events, certainly now we are starting to race in Australia for their training camps? China, three years out we are going to China, we Mr Clegg: A lot of factors were taken into account want to experience China. It does not have to be before we came to our final decision in terms of where the venue is going to be, we just want to go where to site the British team. You can understand, there. It has been the same for the last four as I stressed before, it is absolutely critical to get Olympics which I have been to, in that four year that two week period right before competition. We period you are looking to go to events in that were going into the market place across the whole country. I think in Scotland we are well placed for of Australia and we were trying to find the venues events and to push for that, to push for holding that in the first instance had compatible facilities to events in Scotland. the team that we were going to be taking to the Mr Clegg: Particularly in sport, Glasgow is bidding Games. Quite frankly, we were not interested in for the 2014 Commonwealth Games and in terms basketball courts or baseball pitches if those sports of bringing athletes through to Scotland I can see were not going to be represented in the British that as being very important. team. It is very much horses for courses based upon the composition of the team that you have. We Q18 David Mundell: It goes without saying my went into the market place because we knew that constituency would be happy to have China or the Australia was going to be such a challenging Solomon Islands but I want to come back to a Games in terms of distance and time diVerence. In point you made, Mr Clegg, about the scale of the 1995, so even before we went to the 1996 Olympic Olympics and the resource required. How satisfied Games in Atlanta, we were starting to think about are you of how much work that has been done on the process. Even at that stage we were being how the build up to the Olympics will impact on approached by New Zealand, which came over to other ongoing infrastructure and construction the UK to try and sell us the concept of going to projects which are in the pipeline already? For New Zealand, and we also had approaches from example, the Scottish Executive are committed to Fiji. We were very clear in our mind that we wanted a number of large scale infrastructure projects such to be in mainland Australia. One of the things was as the extension of the M74. Are we clear that all we took into account was the commuting distance that is required for the Olympics can go ahead from the Gold Coast and the fact that we could without it distorting the ability to carry on other come in on British Airways aeroplanes into major projects throughout the rest of the United Brisbane but we could fly out of the Gold Coast Kingdom? airport and fly straight into Sydney. Mr Clegg: I will let Mike lead on this because it Communications played a key point as well. is primarily a LOCOG issue and then I will come Probably one of the most crucial factors was a very in after. clear understanding that we had that everyone Mr Lee: I think all the evidence we have, and from the Mayor down in the Gold Coast was obviously the conversations we have had with the desperate to have the British team, including the CBI, Government and various skills and training Queensland government. We were made to feel agencies, tells us that they can be delivered and it extremely welcome and we were given some 3208392003 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 9

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE support on the ground which would have cost us of the accredited training camps that LOCOG itself financially otherwise to encourage us to go with the would accredit. The whole point of this exercise is Gold Coast. That included support for athletes, to improve the oVer of the whole of the UK supporter provisions and the support of locally because it is partly about trying to make sure that seconded staV to support our operation out there. Scotland and other parts of the country benefit but At the end of the day however, it would not have it is also trying to see oV the opposition from Spain, mattered how large that support had been, if the Germany, France and others. It is a combination facilities had not been to the standard we wanted, of getting the overall package co-ordinated and and if the commuting time had been unacceptable right and improved, where appropriate, with the to us then we would not have selected the Gold training grants and also educating people, through Coast. Simon’s experience and others, on how to make approaches to Olympic teams that we think we can be successful. It is a challenge and we will need a Q20 Danny Alexander: Having had that experience, lot of co-operation to get that. are there things which the London Olympic bid will be doing? You mentioned earlier the audit facilities to show other teams what we have available in Q21 Mr MacDougall: I want to clear up an issue Scotland but will there be other incentives or ideas you mentioned earlier. You mentioned that or support oVered to teams to say “Come and base Hampden Park would be the venue for the opening, yourselves in Dundee, Stirling, Inverness”, the kick oV, if you like, of the Olympic Games prior wherever it is? Are there practical encouragements to the oYcial ceremony, and that is to be to ensure that the teams from other countries welcomed, and also the fact that I believe Hampden choose Scotland as their training camps? Park will play host to one of the quarter final Mr Clegg: Certainly LOCOG organised a Nations matches, again which is welcomed. If I picked you and the Regions Group seminar in January of this up correctly, I think what you said was there is no year and, indeed, the whole of the afternoon session possibility that Scotland can pursue the prospect of was dedicated to providing local council oYcers any other event coming to Scotland now. Can I with the opportunity of coming up to speed with touch on one or two points that may constrain in the opportunities that arise out of posting multi- terms of decision-making. For example, there does sport camps in preparation for the Olympic Games. not seem to be a connection between an excellent Now that London has been successful I know that venue, a world-known venue, in terms of Lords, the the focus will be even greater and we will be holding of archery at Lords does not seem to ring working with LOCOG to make sure the blue print true. There seems to be some strangeness of choice that the British team uses—and please do not take there. How do you reach a decision like that in that as being the blue print that every country uses terms of choosing a venue like that? out there because it is certainly not the case—and Mr Lee: It goes back to the earlier point, you are the sort of issues that we need to address in producing a venue map, if you wish, that fits the determining where we want the British team, Team overall blue print of the IOC. They are very clear GB, to stay in the preparations for the Games are and they have very detailed reports they have done made known to everyone in the UK, and individual on this of what they want to see from a bidding cities and towns can then base their own strategy city. A part of that, I may say, is getting the best around that. use of existing venues within the bidding city. Mr Lee: Through the Nations and Regions Group Therefore, we had to be realistic about what was we have created a small working group which required in terms of the new Olympic Park and this involves UK Sport, all the home country sports major investment and how we could utilise other councils, including sportscotland, the BOA, and venues within London. Cricket is not an Olympic LOCOG itself to look in detail at this and to be sport but Lords is a magnificent venue. I have to V thinking about these di erent sorts of cells that you say beach volleyball at Horse Guard’s Parade, want to make. As Simon has said, Team GB is an archery at Lords and a triathlon and road racing example of a multi-sport large Olympic Committee around Hyde Park and surrounding areas were with a real investment in a preparation camp but very attractive to the IOC because these are great that is at the top end of the scale, you can come settings for Olympic sport. all the way down the scale, so we are trying to think about how we can tailor-make this and that is why diVerent facilities and diVerent configurations Q22 Mr MacDougall: If, for example, the IOC could still be relevant. The other thing to mention decided that they wanted to bring into the Olympic is that during the bid itself we did publish a Games an exhibition tournament such as Rugby commitment which the IOC suggested we Sevens, would the same criteria apply to that withdrew, so we did, but it stays on the table as far situation? as the Olympic Committees are concerned, which Mr Clegg: I am afraid there are no longer any is we want to provide training grants to Olympic exhibition or demonstration sports at the Olympic Committees that they can only cash in the UK. The Games. The last time we saw demonstration sports figure we used in the course of the bid was $50,000 at the Olympic Games was in Barcelona in 1992. which would be available. In other words, LOCOG At that stage the IOC decided to do away with provides this grant to an Olympic team but you can exhibition sports and concentrate purely upon the only use it at the point of training in the UK at one Olympic sports programme. 3208392003 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 10 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE

Q23 Mr Walker: Do you see a big role for the huge amount of enthusiasm out there in the Scottish Executive and perhaps the Secretary of community to grasp a piece of this action because State for Scotland in selling Scotland as a venue for for many it will be the closest they will get to the training camps? I come back to the point I made Olympic Games in 2012 in London. It needs to be originally. Will you be encouraging them to work done in a co-ordinated fashion and I am absolutely with you closely on this? You cannot do it all for sure Mike is right, the Scottish Executive has been them, if they want sports in Scotland they have to absolutely solid behind this bid since day one. It go out there and earn their salary and bring them has been very supportive, and there is no reason to Scotland to the training camps. Is that why that support should not continue once we go something you believe they are going to do and further down the road with the concept of trying they are excited to do and want to do? to pull together the British training camp Mr Clegg: I do not know whether they are excited opportunities. to do it and whether they intend to take it up. Certainly there is an opportunity there for them if they wish to. Q25 Mr Davidson: As you say, Scotland has the advantage of speaking a version of English! I want to pick up the point about training camps. Am I Q24 Mr Walker: That is amazing. right in assuming that individual nations will want Mr Lee: I must say more directly through the to have their entire range of athletes and Nations and Regions Group and LOCOG, the co- participants together and, therefore, sites for camps operation that we have had from the Scottish have to have accessible to them and the whole Executive, the First Minister, the relevant minister, range of facilities or will teams be split up in some Patricia Ferguson, has been excellent both during way? If they are split up, are there any particular the bid—and in fact the First Minister himself was choke points? Maybe in Scotland there is a in Athens, for example, supporting the bid—and shortage of 50 metre pools or a shortage of this or in promoting the bid throughout Scotland. a shortage of that which would tend to be a Internationally too we have had first-class support. particular thing we ought to be focusing on I would say this, the approach about representation getting resolved. on the Nations and Regions Group has been taken Mr Clegg: Can I take the last point first because I up very quickly within Scotland. To have people of think it is a really important point. People should the calibre of Julia Bracewell and David Williams not be building any facilities based upon a possible is a sign of commitment and ultimately they report commercial opportunity for two weeks before to the Scottish Executive. I think the co-operation 17 days of competition in 2012. What I am has been good and the answer to the challenge you suggesting, however, is that where towns and cities laid down is that the signs are that they do want have got, as part of their long-term sports to meet that challenge, not just in preparation development strategy, facilities coming on-stream camps. I would say one thing to the Committee— say just after 2012, then this could be an incentive Simon and I talked about this before coming into to fast track them. I think any suggestion that the room—we know that it is focused on people should be building new facilities to capitalise preparation camps but in tourism, conventions and on this commercial opportunity is wrong. We conferences, as Shirley said in other sporting spoke earlier on about some of the incentives we events, non-Olympic, non-training, there are all got from the Gold Coast. One of the conditions of sorts of opportunities that go with a modern us going to the Gold Coast was that we paid no Olympic Games. If you look at Sydney hire fees for any of the facilities that we had access particularly, whether it was in New South Wales in to. Regarding the first point, you are absolutely general or in Queensland, they were realising a lot right, not all countries organise their pre-Games of benefit from the fact that the Games were there preparation on a multi-sport basis, in fact very few in 2000. Our appeal would be this to you, not to do, indeed even the British team struggled in the conclude that the only opportunities are in training build up to Athens to find one site that could camps, they are in all these other areas. I think accommodate the whole of the British team. We particularly you might say the showcasing of had about 13 sports based in Cyprus, on two Scotland, both pre and after the Games, when so diVerent sites in Cyprus that were probably about many visitors will come into the UK and athletes a 40 minute drive between the two sites; we had a will be here and stay here and all the global media number of teams that were based in Barcelona; we coverage that will come, particularly in the last four had a couple of teams based in the UK and we had year build up, is a great opportunity, whether it is a couple of teams based in Athens, Shirley and the Visit Scotland or EventScotland they appear, from rest of the sailing team, are one of those teams our perspective, to be on the case. where they needed to be on the Olympic water for Mr Clegg: I would say it is still very early days in as long as possible in the years leading up to the this training concept argument. We are still trying Games. Even countries that organise themselves on to pull everything together. National Olympic a multi-sport basis may be fragmented, depending Committees at the moment are focused upon very upon the facilities that are available in a particular challenging Games in Beijing in 2008 and, quite city or town. Many sports will organise their pre- frankly, the vast majority of them will not even Games preparation on a single sports basis. The start thinking about pre-Games preparation camps United States Olympic Committee is a very good for 2012 probably until 2010. We know there is a example where they do no co-ordinated training 3208392003 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 11

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE under the umbrella of the United States Olympic Q29 Mr McGovern: I think this is possibly a Committee. The United States Track and Field question for Simon: you mentioned other places had Federation goes oV and does its own training, tried to encourage the British team to locate with indeed some individual athletes will do their own them, Fiji, for example was mentioned. I heard you training outside of the oYcial training within their say about support from the Scottish Executive who own federation. It can be quite fragmented and sent some of their oYcers there. Who is it who whilst there are attractions to securing some of the should be taking the lead in trying to attract multi-sport opportunities through the larger NOCs countries to locate in Scotland for their training that organise themselves in that manner, there are camps? Should it be the Westminster Government, also many other opportunities based around single Scottish Executive, local authorities, sports sport facilities that may exist in a particular city or organisations, who should it be? Secondly, when the a single town. British team located in Queensland you mentioned about the excellent transport links and communication links. Do you feel the transport Q26 Mr Davidson: Can I clarify in terms of sailing system within the UK and from the UK to the are there adequate facilities in Scotland to attract Continent, the UK to North America, is suYcient to sailing teams to use Scotland as a pre-Olympic attract teams to Scotland at the moment? ground? Mr Lee: Just on the first question, what we are trying Ms Robertson: I think the reality is because sailing to do is create co-ordination through the Nations is so venue specific we will open up Weymouth and and Regions Group. The working group that is everyone will train in that specific venue. Sailing is doing the detailed work and looking at the current perhaps a bad example, swimming pools are more facilities, improvements that have been made, similar. making best use of the audit that has been undertaken and looking at how we create an Q27 Mr Walker: May I say, I asked my colleague to accredited training camp system across the UK is ask that question so I take full responsibility for that through the home country sports councils. The key crummy question. body there, certainly doing the technical work, is Ms Robertson: What they might do is they might sportscotland. I think once that work is completed come to events in the UK and get used to the UK, and we get to around 2007–08 and selling this to the and that is very, very common. When the Games Olympic Committees across the world, we then were in Barcelona we had events the length and expect the relevant leading bodies, in your case breadth of Spain. Also, they will want to come for probably Scottish Executive, to have a key role in holidays. Even when we were in Athens, we were highlighting what the oVer is from Scotland. What training in Athens you tend to go out and you have we are trying to do here, as we have said, is create a to go somewhere else, somewhere diVerent, just for co-ordinated approach so that the UK is able to a break. A lot of athletes and families will do that. resist pressure from other countries and, for example, we know that a pitch from the Institute in Stirling is not being done in a head to head with, say, Q28 Mr Davidson: Following up the point about the the University of Loughborough because, frankly, training facilities, can I clarify about technologies, Stirling might lose. We would rather think about having got this quite clear in my own mind. In terms how we can not quite carve up the world market but of swimming, athletics, gymnastics or anything make the best possible oVer to those 200-odd similar, the facilities that the disciplines would want Olympic Committees and all their teams. There will to access would be the facilities that were then definitely be a promotional role. We would argue, useable by everybody else in the community both certainly at this stage, to go out and try to promote before and after? They are not so specialised that this internationally is far too early and you could end they would only be used for that and nothing else, up disadvantaging yourselves because this would are they? not go down well with Olympic teams and Mr Clegg: Absolutely. When we go into the market committees. place we are not expecting people to build new Mr Clegg: Certainly I would support that. I think an facilities for us. What we may do is to work with the aggressive approach to this business opportunity local council to upgrade their facilities to our could be counter-productive. I think the developed specification, we may lay down requirements NOCs, irrespective of what approaches are made to regarding access to the public to those facilities and them, will go into the market place with their own how we make sure that we get a balance between our parameters and flush out where they think is best for specific and controlled needs and those of the wider them. The less developed teams will rely on LOCOG public. Visiting NOCs are not unreasonable in terms and the publication that Mike and his colleagues will of their requirements and there is no expectation be putting together. This will be published around that new facilities will be built. Please bear in mind, the time of the Beijing Games and will highlight the of course, that we are talking about training specific opportunities in each of the towns and cities facilities, we are not talking about competition that fall within the criteria. I think that our facilities. I am not interested in what spectator contribution is to highlight to people the way that we capacity there may be, and quite a lot of the indoor do our business and the way that we, as a National sports such as judo, wrestling, weightlifting and Olympic Committee, would go about identifying fencing can be adapted to almost any indoor halls, where the best place would be for the British team, just by bringing in the necessary equipment. and the factors that we would take into account. 3208392003 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 12 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE

Q30 Mr McGovern: There were two questions I put, quarantine regulations, and making sure that the other one was about transport links in Scotland. horses, who tend not to travel that well, have the Mr Clegg: I am very comfortable with the transport minimum amount of travel possible. What tends to links from Scotland down to London. If you think happen is that the four-legged athletes arrive in situ about the British team in 2000 we were based on the in the host city in the weeks leading up to the Games Gold Coast but flew into Brisbane, and then drove and are housed in a special facility there that would for over an hour down to the Gold Coast before safeguard them from infection and allow them to flying direct to Sydney; likewise in terms of prepare properly for the Olympic Games. Tallahassee, we were over an hour’s flying time from Atlanta. In Barcelona last year we were a good Q34 Gordon Banks: I think Mike made a point about couple of hours flying time to Athens. I am therefore the $50,000 incentive for countries setting up very comfortable from a transport perspective about training camps in the UK. First of all, how far does the accessibility of the Olympic village from $50,000 go? My assumption is not very far, so there Scotland. is an incentive that people will just discount it because it is not particularly relevant to the overall Q31 Gordon Banks: A couple of pieces of cost, although it may be for a smaller nation. That clarification. Are we to take from what you have said leads me on to the next point, is it $50,000 that training camps usually have a lifespan of two irrespective of the size of the nation that comes or is weeks prior to the Games? it up to $50,000? Mr Clegg: That is when it is full-on in a very focused Mr Lee: We need to do more detailed work. What manner. What we found in the arrangements we put we proposed in the bid phase—we regard this as a in place with the Gold Coast was that we wanted to commitment to the Olympic Committees—was test our own systems, ahead of having the whole of $50,000 irrespective of size and that would be a the team there in 2000 so we actually took a number standard grant that you could only utilise in an of sports down to the Gold Coast in 1999 in a co- accredited UK training camp. Just to be clear, ordinated NOC fashion. That allowed us to test our Simon may want to emphasise this point, $50,000 for own systems and structures and allowed them to go some of the smaller teams is a huge amount of on to Sydney and experience what was happening money. down there. Q35 Gordon Banks: We appreciate that. It is a drop Q32 Gordon Banks: Can I interject. Obviously by in the ocean, I imagine, to what we would spend? that time you had made your decision where you Mr Clegg: We spent in excess of a million pounds were going? sterling on the Gold Coast and that was just the Mr Clegg: Absolutely. On top of that, individual British team, not the travelling British press and the teams were going down to the Gold Coast and media and the families and friends and the pre- continue to go down to the Gold Coast today as part Games business and the subsequent post-Games of their preparations for worldwide events. A very business as well. good example of this is the swimming team which spends quite a lot of its time down on the Gold Coast Q36 Gordon Banks: A final point, I take it from what based upon the pool arrangements that we put in has been said earlier, and it is a logical conclusion place for 2000. from what has been said but I have to ask the question, we have not identified any locations where Q33 Gordon Banks: Would it be fair to say, also, if the UK camp will be? we take the two weeks as a standard period, Mr Clegg: At this moment in time, no, we have not. equestrian events may have a longer period because We have started that process because the most of acclimatisation of the animals as well? Is that a important thing for us is to ensure we deliver podium fair assumption as well, where there are animals success in 2012. We cannot aVord to get the concerned the location of the camp may be even preparation wrong, so the process has started. longer? Mr Clegg: There are two sports which tend to be Q37 Gordon Banks: How long do you see that quite specific to the venue. We undertake multi- process taking? I know you said the IOC countries sport training camps away from the host city will want to look at it in 2010, and I understand the because, if you go into the Olympic City in the weeks fact, also, that you might look at it quicker than that, leading up to the Games, you simply will not get into but how long is that deliberation period that the UK or on to the facilities as they are closed down in pre- organisation will have before coming to a decision? Games preparation mode. There is no point coming Mr Clegg: It will take as long as it takes. I am sorry, to London because you will not get into the Olympic I am not being flippant. We need to work this facilities which are going to be used for 2012. The through, we need to work with the governing bodies two sports which have got quite specific because, quite frankly, there is no point in us saying requirements are sailing—and that is why most of we are going to go to X if the performance directors the sailors spend quite a lot of time on the water turn around and say “We do not want to go there, where the Olympic Games are going to be and, of we want to do our own training because, quite course, it is not a confined facility in the same respect frankly, we have got a velodrome in Manchester” or as an athletic stadium is or a swimming pool is—and “we have got a national training centre in the other one is the equestrian teams because of the Loughborough” or whatever. We need to work with 3208392003 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 13

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE the sports. What I am absolutely convinced of is that Q40 Ms Clark: It is reckoned that Queensland made we need to make our decision whilst all the probably about £26 million out of the training opportunities are still open to us and before they camps that were set up before those Olympics. Has have been closed down by any other countries, so I there been any work done as to what the economic am very astute to that issue. impact might be of training camps being set up in the Mr Lee: Simon told me before we came in it would lead up to our Olympics? not be in France! Mr Lee: Not specifically on training camps. In fact, Gordon Banks: That is good news. if you look at the Queensland example, the overall gain to the Queensland economy was far greater Q38 Mr Walker: Very briefly, on the Olympics, in than that, both in terms of contracts won, tourism the year before the Olympics on the acclimatisation, boosts, what they call showcasing Queensland. The there are 26 sports with multiple disciplines, what figures are closer, they say, to £250 million in total. measures will we be taking to bring their annual The economic impact that has so far been done in the world championships to our shores? Surely, if I am context of the London Games tells us that the boost completely wrong on sailing in Scotland, the idea of that it could lead to for the UK economy can vary hosting world championships in Scotland as part of between one and four billion, partly depending on the acclimatisation process must have some merit, how active we are. I think one of the messages that and that really must be an opportunity? hopefully is coming across today is that these are Mr Clegg: There is a major piece of work being opportunities but they are not God given certainties. undertaken by LOCOG because they have to test all People have got to own the right to host those of the venues, in all 26 sports there needs to be a test camps, to take advantage of the tourist event in each of the Olympic venues and that allows opportunities to win those contracts. I do think there LOCOG, in our case, to test their own systems and is a challenge here for the nations and regions. What their own structures with live athletes. There will be we are doing suggests they are up for it because if we in place a proper strategic plan that will in some do not take advantage of it in the UK others will instances involve world events, European events and take advantage of it. other international or domestic events, to allow LOCOG to go through that process. Over and above that, UK Sport, through their major events division, Q41 Ms Clark: That is obviously one of the reasons is responsible for the UK strategy of attracting that we are looking at this issue and have invited you major international events to the UK. It is quite along today, all of us want to make sure that obvious that process and that strategy has to happen Scotland does everything that can be done to make in tandem with what LOCOG will be doing in terms sure that we benefit as much as possible from this of test events. Olympics. Mr Lee: Just to say, David Williams, who is the CEO Q39 Ms Clark: You have explained the reasons why of EventScotland, worked in Queensland. I do not you decided to base the British team on the Gold know if you have met him, I think he is going to be Coast and the facilities and support that was one of your witnesses. It would be interesting to talk provided there, and you decided to go ahead with to him about Queensland. I think he is quite usefully that despite the fact it was, I think, 600 miles away placed because Queensland is further from Sydney from where most of the events were taking place. than Scotland is from London. Queensland realised Thinking back, do you think the facilities lived up to all those opportunities and EventScotland expectations and were there any disadvantages in themselves talked about somewhere in the region of being further away from the main events? a £100 million boost. Their focus is on conferences, Mr Clegg: I think perhaps it would be wrong to ask conventions and non-sporting events. That is an me that question but I can answer it by providing area the Committee may well want to look at. you with the answer the athletes gave us. They felt that the significant improvement in the British team Q42 David Mundell: I want to clarify something that from one gold medal and 36th in the medal table in I think you said in relation to the point Gordon Atlanta in 1996 to eleven gold medals and tenth in the medal table in 2000, a major contributing factor raised about equestrian events. What you are saying had been the whole basis of the preparation during is that there is no prospect of the equestrian teams that critical two week period before the Games on coming to Scotland because, superficially for rural the Gold Coast. Shirley can speak for the other Scotland, that would look to be one of the pitches athletes as well but of course, bearing in mind what they could make in relation to the non-track and I said earlier on, the sailing team were based down field and swimming pool. Basically you are saying on the water in Sydney. there is likely to be no realistic prospect of equestrian Ms Robertson: We did go to the Gold Coast in both teams being based in Scotland. years before the Games for R&R, and also to be part Mr Clegg: I think one has to be realistic and the of the team. There was medical back-up there as chances are extremely slim. You will find horses well. It was important for us even though we were flying in on 707 jets converted to stables probably on not putting oars in the water on the Gold Coast. It a multi-country basis, planes going from country A was a really good set up. You have to remember the to country B, picking up horses and delivering them British team is really well organised and very well to Stansted and probably straight into the Olympic respected; not all teams are quite so thorough. area from there. 3208392003 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 14 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE

Q43 David Mundell: On the basis of what you said I elite athlete status and go for Olympic participation, fully understand that and I think it is fairly and those who currently may be doing no sport important so that people do not go down a route of whatsoever and just start getting involved? trying to do that because superficially it seems an Mr Lee: Just to say, if I may, on behalf of LOCOG, option. Can I just ask you about the interesting and I am sure Simon will want to comment on behalf wording which I think appears in some of the of the BOA, from a LOCOG perspective, we are not London Organising literature about the relocation responsible either for grass root sport or for elite of swimming pools and arenas post-Olympics. What sport, we are responsible to the IOC to stage a great does that practically mean? Is it eVectively just Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2012. However, dismantling them and moving them? when we won the right to stage those Games, and Mr Lee: Yes. indeed the whole bid campaign was based on the principle of inspiring more young people into sport, we felt our job was to keep the momentum of Q44 David Mundell: Is there any concept as to how that going, to open the doors that others must that process will work? go through, through the sports development Mr Lee: Again, that is something that is under programmes and the work that is being done in discussion but as a commitment that was given improving elite performance. We hope the eVect of relating to the technology that is now in place, where a 2012 Games, both in the run up to 2012 and it is possible, to have essentially demountable arenas beyond, is to achieve both, to inspire more young and also, frankly, swimming pools which can people to participate and also to improve our own literally be lifted out of the ground and moved. elite performance. Certainly, for example, the new aquatic centre that Mr Clegg: From my perspective we need to go back will be a key part of the Olympic Park will have far to why we conceived this bid back in 1997, and that more facilities in terms of training pools than it can was a very clear understanding that nothing had the sustain in legacy mode once the Games have been potential to move sport higher or more quickly up and gone. Therefore, what we have proposed is that both the political and social agendas in this country. some of those temporary arenas—and we are very Certainly through the successful bid that has been clear incidentally—in the Olympic Park, of all the achieved politically and we believe that position will new venues that have been created only five will be be sustained for the next seven years. I think the real permanent venues within the Olympic Park, the rest opportunity and the real challenge now is to move will be temporary venues and, therefore, the sport within the social agenda. Obviously we have a proposal is that a number of those should be remit for the high performance end of sport in terms demounted and relocated ideally within the UK of leading and managing the British team at the itself. Olympic Games but, quite frankly, we need kids to be motivated by the Olympic Games being hosted in Q45 David Mundell: There is no process for that? London to take up sport. A lot of work needs to be Mr Lee: That is part of what we call our legacy done with the home country sports councils where planning as we are looking at the development of the the main responsibility for this area sits in Olympic Park and it is identifying those venues that conjunction with the governing bodies. Collectively will remain in the Olympic Park which will be we need to put in place a system that will take people adjusted to legacy use, the most obvious of which is from grass roots all the way up to the Olympic the main stadium which will go from 80,000 seats to podium in as seamless a transition as possible. If we 25,000 to then be a track and field centre and a major achieve our goal of delivering fourth place in the new international facility. There are many other medal table in 2012 and we have not driven a whole venues, including the training pools at the aquatic new generation of kids into sport then we will all centre, which potentially are there for reuse in other have failed. parts of the country. Q48 Mr MacNeil: You will have heard of the Q46 David Mundell: Does the Nation and Regions excellent C-ScOT campaign for an independent Group have a role in that process? Scottish Olympic team. Why should there not be Mr Lee: Potentially, yes, because one of the things an independent Scottish Olympic team? I think it we have been working on with the DCMS in would be an interesting example. FIFA and the particular is legacy becoming a part of the brief of Commonwealth Games Federation allow Scotland the Nations and Regions Group. Legacy exists in and, indeed, England to participate and showcase many diVerent forms: education, health, sports themselves on the international stage. facilities, future use of the Olympic Park, tourism Mr Clegg: I am going to ask my colleague to lead on opportunities and so on. The range of those work this, and then I will follow it up. areas, the nations and regions will be invited to be a Ms Friend: I am afraid I did not hear the very end of part of that. your question.

Q47 David Mundell: In relation to the emphasis on Q49 Mr MacNeil: The fact that FIFA and the young people to participate, where do you see the Commonwealth Games Federation allow Scotland balance lying between encouraging people who are and, indeed, England to showcase themselves on the already participating at the moment to move up to international stage, why? 3208392003 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 15

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE

Ms Friend: The Olympic movement is obviously run Ms Robertson: Angus, can I ask you a question? Do and governed by the Olympic Committee and their you know how many gold medals the Cayman rules and regulations which eVectively make up the Islands won at the last Olympics? Olympic Charter. Through that it is the IOC’s remit, and they are the only body with this jurisdiction, to decide how to recognise National Olympic Q54 Mr MacNeil: How many competitors did the Committees. In turn it is only a National Olympic Cayman Islands have? Committee that can lead a delegation to the Ms Robertson: One. Olympic Games. The IOC Charter, currently, in rule 31 states that the IOC will only recognise or grant Q55 Mr MacNeil: I asked you a question. National Olympic Committee status to an Ms Robertson: Now I understand how it works. For independent country recognised by the international an athlete it is a really scary prospect to be pulled out community. There are a number of other of the British team and compete for Scotland, for requirements that have to be met, such as being lots of diVerent reasons. I sailed in a three person recognised by five International Federations and team last time with two girls who live near various other things. It is entirely within the remit of Heathrow, English girls brought up in the English the International Olympic Committee, not the British Olympic Association or, with due respect, the system. To be honest, I do not know who I would government of any one country to decide how it is have sailed with in Scotland, there just was not that recognised in the Olympic Movement. range of talent. Also, we draw on such expertise and resources. We have talked about the goal camps, the British goal camp is something to be looked at and Q50 Mr MacNeil: When you see countries as small something to be admired. It goes way beyond that. as the Cayman Islands and Bermuda participating, To be out on my own, without the support that we surely an ancient such as Scotland should be able to have being part of the bigger team, is really scary and participate? I think you would struggle to win. I think if Chris Ms Friend: I can completely understand the Hoyt was here he would say the same thing. He won frustration and the element of inconsistency. his gold medal in cycling because he was part of a much bigger team, he was part of that British team Q51 Mr Davidson: I do not understand it. which trained in Manchester with all the resources Ms Friend: However, again, it is entirely within the and technical support, and that is why he won the IOC’s remit and the rules did change in 1996 and the gold medal. Also, if you ask us, we are competing for territories that have been identified in other sectors Scotland. I am Scottish but I am also British. In a as having National Olympic Committee status who way I feel slightly aggrieved, scratch me and I am are not independent countries recognised by the blue and white underneath. international community were all granted NOC Chairman: We would like to take evidence from you status before 1996, when the IOC subsequently changed their rules. Before that their rules stated more often. that they had open remit within themselves to decide whether a territory or a geographical area did Q56 Mr MacNeil: If it is a big team, would you go warrant National Olympic Committee status but for a European Union team? they have since changed their rules. Ms Robertson: It is not about wanting to be part of a big team, it is that I want to win, and I want to win Q52 Mr MacNeil: Looking at the old USSR, in 1998 for Scotland and I want to win for Britain and I want they had 132 medals, when it became 15 independent to win. I do not want to go to the Olympics and nations they managed to get 162 medals. People watch somebody else’s flag going up the flagpole and were made aware of Kazakhstan, Belarus and hear someone else’s anthem, I want to hear the Moldova. Is it not far better we see Scotland as a full British Anthem. member? Mr MacNeil: If your team mates were French would Mr Clegg: Those are independent states recognised you be interested in a European Union team? by the international community. Prior to 1996 the Mr Walker: Angus wants you to be a martyr to the rule within the Olympic Charter stated that the cause. definition of a country was “a country, state, territory or part of a territory which the IOC in its absolute discretion considers an area of a recognised Q57 Chairman: Perhaps you could answer this NOC.” They changed that in 1996. Since that time question: how would the Scottish themselves think the rules and regulations state that the expression about this report of a Scottish team? “country” means an independent state recognised by Ms Robertson: I think we were a bit upset that it the international community and that is the rule the came up in the media. We feel we are doing our best IOC has stuck to since that time. for Scotland and Scotland did really well at the last games, two gold medals, a silver and a bronze from Q53 Mr MacNeil: Looking at the participation a small nation. The Cayman Islands did not win any means, would it not be better if the British Olympic medals. We feel passionate that we are Scottish and Association Committee started lobbying to allow British and we are proud to be part of the team that England, Wales and Scotland to put their names BOA send because it is a really good team and it is high up with Moldova? really well organised. 3208392003 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 16 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE

Q58 Mr MacNeil: People from other nations might is acceptable to everyone that will not deprive not know you are Scottish. You do not get a chance talented young football players, from whichever to show this pride in Scotland. part of the United Kingdom they come from, Ms Robertson: Everybody in Scotland knows that I competing in the world’s greatest event on our home am Scottish. shores here in London in 2012. There are hurdles to Mr Clegg: The most important thing here is, overcome, I am confident we can overcome those whether people like it or not, we are governed by the and we can put together a team which will be a credit rules of the International Olympic Committee to the whole of the United Kingdom. through the Olympic Charter. They are absolutely black and white on this issue. My understanding is Q60 Mr Davidson: I think it is worthwhile maybe only if we move from devolution to independence, just mentioning that the vast majority in this will Scotland be entitled to have its own national Committee support the continuation of a British Olympic committee. Professionally, I believe we are team and want to see neither a Scottish team which stronger collectively. I think Shirley would admit is like the Cayman Islands which, if I remember that without the other two Sarah’s, not only was she correctly, is an overseas territory—I do not think unlikely to have won her gold medal she may not any of us would want Scotland to have that status— even have been selected to go to the Games. Exactly nor do we want Scotland merged into a grand EU the same can be said for Katherine Granger in the team, perish the thought. I had not heard that before women’s pair who took a silver medal in the rowing but I can assure you that we will hear it again. Can event. I believe that the collective interest of high I just come back to the points that you were making performance sport across the United Kingdom is before this about boosting sport in general which is much stronger, working as one, and only by working why a lot of people like myself supported the idea of collectively as one with a common goal, Olympic a London bid. What I am not clear about is how you success, will we achieve fourth place in the medal are working with people like the local authorities table in 2012. It will require everyone to put and businesses to try and boost the funding which whatever baggage they are carrying behind them goes into grass roots sport. While I accept you do not and focus on supporting our athletes. The one thing have the responsibility for that, you do have I would love to see is more Scottish athletes in the Olympics the brand which has to be immensely British team and more Scottish athletes winning powerful in terms of generating financial support for medals. I think that is a challenge for sportscotland areas like my own where sporting facilities are partly and for the athletes of Scotland and if they can under-used by working class youngsters and partly achieve that I think that will be a wonderful goal, simply not working. and the whole of the British team would be a richer Mr Clegg: I can assure you that there is a lot of work place for it. in progress at this moment in time because there are many agencies involved in delivering grass roots Q59 Mr McGovern: I want to ask a supplementary sport and education programmes around sport. question, I agree with Shirley, I am entirely What you should see is a very much joined-up comfortable with the concept of a British team and approach to this with LOCOG, ourselves, DfES, I must commend Shirley for mentioning the facilities Youth Sports Trusts, the home country sports in Dundee. How do you square that circle with the councils, and DCMS, working collectively to ensure football thing where the IOC are saying they want we grasp this wonderful opportunity, probably a one team to represent Great Britain and Northern once in a lifetime opportunity, to make sure we can Ireland, and that team will either be England, push the case for sport within the social agenda. We Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland? will be judged by the outcomes of that in 2012 and Mr Clegg: The IOC have not said that. It is entirely for decades thereafter, but it is still fairly early days within the gift of the British Olympic Association to at the moment and I can assure you there is a lot of decide whether we enter a team of athletes for any of work in progress to make sure we capitalise on this the 26 sports within the programme. Obviously there opportunity. has been a historical situation with football, though we have successfully entered previous Olympic Q61 Mr Davidson: Are you happy that it is not going football competitions in decades gone. We are to be dissipated amongst the alphabet soup working with the Football Association, because organisations? I can see why everybody would want with the agreement of the other home country to be involved in this because it is the biggest show associations they represent the interests of football in town, but how do you balance the detail involved on the National Olympic Committee, to try and find while at the same time making sure that there is a a solution to this problem. Could I say the BOA will main driver? not support a position which in any way Mr Clegg: That is challenging and that is one of compromises the integrity of the home country the issues that the working group is looking at at associations separate aYliation to FIFA. We have the moment. We have to make sure that the received assurances from the President of FIFA, Olympic Games can touch every youngster in the Sepp Blatter, that if we do enter a British team for United Kingdom in some way, whether it is the Olympic Games it will not compromise that through educational programmes, whether it is in integrity. Having achieved that degree of assurance terms of taking up sport, whether it is experiencing I think the onus is now on us and on the four home new sport, whether it is talent identification country football associations to find a solution that programmes that will identify people who at this 3208392003 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 17

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE moment do not realise they have got latent talent they will work together collectively to produce a in a particular sport. I think there are all sorts of programme which will be deliverable across the opportunities, there are all sorts of work strands whole of the UK. Mike is absolutely right, we need which are being developed at the moment with to ensure the rights that LOCOG own are outputs likely to appear fairly early in the New protected because it is those rights that will Year. generate the money that will be needed to stage the Mr Lee: There is one other element to this, which Games. Only once the commercial sector has come is the private sector. Simon is rightly identifying the on board with LOCOG will the opportunities be work that is coming together to make a case for created for getting those commercial sponsors more investment in grass roots sports and I think involved with grass roots programmes. We must it is important the agencies have the responsibility not allow other parties who are not LOCOG to lead on that. One of the opportunities which sponsors to be running Olympic related comes out from LOCOG and the 2012 Games is programmes because that would be very damaging that we have to raise in the region of over to LOCOG and, quite frankly, if there is a shortfall £500 million from the private sector to act as in the income that can be generated then it will be sponsors to the event. Some major proportion of the public purse that will be picking it up. that will be about helping to finance literally the running of the Games but I think there could be some interesting developments in terms of a Q64 Mr Walker: Picking up what Ian said, how are relationship with the corporate sponsor which links we going to stop this from becoming a jamboree to them, for example, investing in grass roots sport. for the rich, famous and powerful? All this is It is good for them, it is good for us, it is good for happening in London, the venues are in London grass roots sport. We know that some of the and we all know what happens, you have special sponsors who are interested in working with us motorway lanes for the new aristocracy to arrive already before we have even gone out to market— unencumbered by traYc to these facilities. What which we probably will not do until the middle part about Ian’s working class kids, how are they going of next year—are new sponsors to sport. They are to get to the Olympic facilities? Who is going to pay not people who have currently got investment in for their travel? Who is going to pay for their existing sports programmes. It has not been much tickets? I am lucky, I will have the Olympics in talked about but I think potentially if we do the Broxbourne and I am sure provision will be made, right deals and we know the sponsors themselves, but how will provision be made for his they want leverage into schools and into youth and constituents? This is very important, this is the community, that could be a source of additional country’s Olympics, it is not just for the rich but funding into British sport. for those who would otherwise have no chance of getting near a venue or this wonderful celebration Q62 Mr Davidson: If there is a time line for that of sport. process when should we be able to see some Mr Lee: I think the primary focus for us has been progress and what are the things we ought to be on ticket pricing. In fact, of all the five bidding saying to the Scottish Executive when we meet cities that competed for 2012 we have the best and them: “Are you doing X by such and such a date?” fairest set of ticket proposals, and that means the Mr Lee: You mean in terms of the public funding? majority of the tickets are under £30. You have to remember our aim and plan is to ensure that every Q63 Mr Davidson: Yes, additional public and venue is full. We will deploy all ticketing and attracting private funding and getting this melange marketing strategies that we need to make sure that of alphabet organisations together. Are there happens. Also, every ticket with it will have free certain things you are aiming for? We look at travel across London. So an investment in a ticket Scotland, obviously there will be regions of gives you a right to public transport across London England doing the same thing, we are interested in for whatever the ticket applies to on the particular seeing whether or not Scotland is ahead of them or day. Are we saying there is a commitment at the behind them. Are there certain things we ought to moment to provide travel subsidies directly from be looking for happening by a certain date? the LOCOG across the UK, the answer is no. Will Mr Lee: On the private sector side I am describing there be rail companies, bus companies and all something that LOCOG is going to deal with sorts of other people interested in being engaged directly, these are primary relationships with and driving traYc and driving business, in potential sponsors. Just because the Games are providing those sorts of discounted fares, I think coming, there are potentially all sorts of new absolutely. All I can say is there will be tickets players in the market place and attracting those available at every range. It will not be a Games— and engaging those is something that people need and Seb Coe has made this absolutely clear—for to consider. On the private sector side, the big pot the rich and famous. The Olympic families have I am describing, the lead responsibility is certain demands, rightly so, in terms of how they categorically with LOCOG on that. On the public are protected and how they are able to travel, side, Simon? particularly the athletes. Our intention, and Seb has Mr Clegg: On the public sector side all I can assure made this clear, is that this will be a celebration for you at the moment is the relevant agencies are the whole of the UK. Whether it is in the individual engaged in the process and we are confident that venues, in the cultural festivals, in the large screens 3208392003 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 18 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE in town hall squares, whether it is through the Games by people who have tickets and will be volunteer programme, this is a Games for the attending the events but at an agreed price formula. whole of the nation of this country. The reason that we have done that, and it has never been done before by a bidding city ahead of a Q65 Chairman: Is there any provision—obviously decision by the IOC, is because of the exact there are children and families who will not be able experience in Athens and other previous host cities to aVord to buy a ticket—to subsidise those where there is no doubt about it that on a shortage families of those children? of accommodation prices were sent through the Mr Lee: We are not allowed under the terms of the roof and there was exploitation going across agreement with the IOC to directly provide the market place. I think Athens was probably the subsidised tickets. What we can do, and it is worst example in recent times. London has taken something we have discussed, for example with the an unprecedented step in reaching a whole series of GLA, is work with them where they are able to buy contractual agreements with hotels to ensure that certain allocations that they can use in their own cannot happen under the legal binding contracts we communities. We are not saying that we will have fixed with over 40,000 hotel rooms and rising provide large numbers of individually subsidised across the capital. tickets but we can work with local authorities and Mr Walker: That is fabulous news but these other partners to provide them with an allocation people—and I am sorry to labour the point—even that they can use in their own area. if it was going to be £150 and they had reduced it to £80, what you have got to understand is that for Q66 Mr Davidson: Can I clarify: will an area like the people out there with very little or no disposal Glasgow be regarded as a partner in that regard? income actually some provision somewhere needs If tickets go on sale a month before and you have to be made within this whole jamboree to ensure to be there in person then clearly travelling up and that a few people, perhaps more than a few, get a down twice is going to be unduly expensive. Will chance to do something which is otherwise going people in my area have the same opportunity to to be totally out of their reach. I know every buy tickets as anyone else? Member of Parliament will work with you to Mr Lee: Absolutely. They will be available, open identify deserving cases and causes in their sale, on the Internet by all the usual means. If one constituencies and would love to work with you on is interested in exploring the idea that people may achieving that. be able to have a certain allocation they can use in their own communities, it is something the Nations Q68 Chairman: If you need any support from a and Regions Group ought to discuss and we will happily make sure it is discussed there. Member, we understand you do not have a massive budget and you are constrained but you have contacts with the Scottish Executive, regional Q67 Mr Walker: We have under-privileged people governments and local government and I am sure across the country, it is not just the cost of the they will all play their part, we will all play our part ticket, it is travel and accommodation costs. I think to ensure that people in communities feel they are we could have you back for a whole session on how participating in these Olympic Games. some of the poorest people in our society are going Mr Lee: There are nine and a half million tickets to be able to take part in this because that is in the course of an Olympic Games, by the way. something which really worries me. We are going The commitment from LOCOG is to ensure that to have people being required to pay hundreds of the pricing structure we put in place, agreed with pounds for hotels that normally cost tens of the IOC, will make sure that everybody has an pounds. We are going to have every form of price opportunity to attend one of those venues. Nine gouging and actually the most vulnerable in our society, the people who get the least treats, the least and a half million tickets are not normally sold days out are going to totally miss out on this. I am out and we will make sure they are available in as fair and open a way and at prices that people not having a go at you but it is going to be a stain V on this country if people in Ian’s constituency, the can a ord. working class in my constituency, and of Members Ms Friend: We should not also forget that after the here, have no chance of getting to see this. Sure, Olympic Games comes the Paralympic Games and they can aVord a ticket perhaps for £25 but the the ticket pricing is at an even lower level again travelling and accommodation puts it way out of because traditionally there has been a problem their reach and that will be a tragedy. filling some of the stadia during the Paralympic Mr Lee: There are two things to say, one is that I Games, which is second only to the Olympic Games suspect there will be all sorts of interesting travel in terms of a celebration of a sporting festival. I schemes which will come up in the Games. The believe I am right in saying there will be a vast second thing is to give you some assurance on a allocation of tickets in and around the £10 and gouging of prices on hotels, Sara, along with below mark for the Paralympics. colleagues within LOCOG, has worked very hard Chairman: Can I thank you for your attendance over the last several months to conclude a whole this afternoon. I am sure your evidence will be very series of deals with all the major hotel chains in helpful to the Committee Members and the people London so that in fact we have not only those of Scotland. rooms provided for the Olympics for use during the Mr Walker: And Broxbourne too. 3208392003 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:32:01 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 19

8 November 2005 Mr Simon Clegg, Ms Sara Friend, Mr Mike Lee and Ms Shirley Robertson OBE

Q69 Chairman: Do you wish to say anything on the challenge for all of us involved in the Organising subject we have not covered? Committee is to make sure that as many people Mr Clegg: No. Thank you for the opportunity that in our country grasp this once in a lifetime you have given us today to meet and speak with opportunity as possible. you. I think this is a fantastic opportunity and the Chairman: Once again, thank you. 3226361001 Page Type [SE] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 20 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

Tuesday 15 November 2005

Members present:

Mr Mohammad Sarwar, Chairman

Gordon Banks Mr Angus MacNeil Ms Katy Clark David Mundell Mr John MacDougall Mr Charles Walker Mr Jim McGovern

Memorandum submitted to Scottish AVairs Committee by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (COSLA)

1. Introduction 1.1 COSLA welcomes this opportunity to provide evidence to the Scottish AVairs Committee on The Potential Benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics. 1.2 The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities represents 31 of 32 Authorities across Scotland. In addition to monthly meetings of Council Leaders, there are quarterly Executive meetings, for example of Arts, Sport and Leisure Convenors and of Economic Development Convenors. COSLA also takes advice from a range of professional associations, including VOCAL—the Voice of Chief OYcers of Culture, Arts and Leisure, and SLAED, the association of chief oYcers of Scottish Local Authorities Economic Development Services. 1.3 Investing over £200 million per annum, Local Authorities are a major contributor to sport across Scotland. In addition, Local Authorities contribute over £140 million per annum to the economic development of Scotland and make a significant contribution to delivering and investing in the tourism infrastructure.

2. Context 2.1 Scotland is internationally renowned for its enthusiasm and support for and achievements in a wide range of sports, from football, rugby, and golf to sailing, curling and athletics. However, participation rates in some areas of Scotland remain low—a 41% diVerential between the areas with the highest and lowest participation rates in Scotland and across all socio-economic groups. Against this background of low participation rates, Glasgow is seeking to bring the 2014 Commonwealth Games to Scotland. 2.2 To address issues of low participation, to nurture talent and to improve the sporting infrastructure, key stakeholders from local government, Scottish Executive, sportscotland and sporting bodies have jointly developed the Sport 21 Strategy which will be reviewed and refreshed in 2006, taking into account the opportunities and challenges presented by the 2014 Commonwealth Games bid and the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. 2.3 Within this context, COSLA identifies three underpinning principles or tests which Scottish Local Authorities would seek to apply to all elements of delivering the Olympic and Paralympic Games, namely: — Sustainability—for example, venues and facilities should be built in response to clearly-identified long-term community need and with sustainable management and resourcing plans in place; — Added value—the Olympic and Paralympic Games must add value to existing strategies, plans and programmes; — Olympic quality—all elements of Scotland’s contribution to the Games will be delivered to the highest standards, whether at Hampden Park or at community events. 2.4 Local Authorities also identify as priority outcomes from the 2012 Games: — Wider, sustained participation in sport and physical activity at every level; — Flexible, sustainable sports facilities to meet identified long-term national, regional and local needs; — Sustainable economic growth, particularly in manufacturing, construction, hospitality, catering and tourism, and design and marketing; — International recognition of Scotland as a world-class tourist, business and learning destination. 3226361001 Page Type [O] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 21

3. Scottish Local Authorities’Unique Contribution

3.1 Scottish Local Authorities are at the forefront of planning, co-ordinating, delivering, enabling and financing a range of social, economic, cultural and environmental services. They are also democratically accountable champions for their local communities, responding to local needs and priorities and raising local concerns in the national arena. 3.2 Partnerships and Strategies: Local Government is uniquely placed to facilitate eVective partnership working, whether across council Services, internally; across neighbouring Councils or those with common cause; and with external partner agencies. With its lead role in Community Planning Partnerships, Local Government is in a position to ensure that the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games add maximum value to regeneration, health improvement, community safety, lifelong learning, social justice and other cross- cutting strategies and programmes. 3.3 Infrastructure: Scottish Local Authorities are at the forefront of economic development in Scotland, driving regeneration and city transformation, creating conditions for economic growth, developing tourism, and leading strategic transportation activities, all of which are key to the successful delivery of the 2012 Olympic Games and their “legacy”. 3.4 Venues and Facilities: Scottish Local Government, together with sportscotland, the Scottish Executive and other partners, is delivering a range of new and upgraded sports facilities of international standard across the country over the next five years as part of a National and Regional Sports Facilities programme, independent of the Olympic and Commonwealth Games bids. These venues are being developed in response to locally and nationally identified need and demand, and are assured high usage and attendance rates and sustainability well beyond 2012. New and upgraded facilities will include: in Glasgow, a new velodrome, flexible national indoor arena with capacity for 5,000 spectators, an additional training facility at Tolcross Pool, improved facilities at Scotstoun track; in Edinburgh, a major refurbishment of the 50m Royal Commonwealth Pool, a new velodrome and outdoor athletics stadium; and in North Lanarkshire and Aberdeen, indoor training facilities for football and other sports. These flexible indoor and outdoor arenas, swimming pools and training facilities will complement and add value to the existing network of National Centres and other high quality sports facilities across the country. In addition, Scotland boasts a number of first class conference and exhibition centres, all easily accessible by road, rail, air and sea, which together with our national sports venues oVer prime, flexible facilities for training camps, event training for oYcials, conferences, exhibitions, events and seminars associated with the Olympic Games.

The Potential Benefits of the 2012 Games: a Local Government Perspective

4. Widening Participation

With the review next year of Sport 21, Scotland’s strategy for sport, the Olympic and Paralympic Games oVer clear opportunities to add value to our shared goals of widening participation and nurturing and improving the performance of talented athletes. Increasing participation requires not only building enthusiasm for sport and physical activity with individuals and families and within schools and communities but also ensuring aVordable access to Scottish supporters at Olympic and Paralympic events. Local Government is clear from the experience of previous host countries that sustained wider participation cannot be taken for granted. If that particular “legacy” is to be achieved for Scotland, the work must start now both nationally and within our communities, with 2012 as the culmination of our shared eVorts. 4.1 2012 additionally oVers an opportunity to increase participation in cultural events and celebrations in communities across Scotland—in schools, linking with existing twinning, friendship and exchange partners; through Young Ambassadors programmes; making new links with guest Training Nations; and through projects on related history, geography, cultural and environmental issues; in wider communities through local mini-Olympics, cultural festivals, events and celebrations. Scotland should also be well represented at the planned cultural Olympiad in the run-up to the Games. Again, there are opportunities in 2006 to ensure that the cultural opportunities oVered by the Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2012 are aligned to the cultural outcomes identified as part of the current National Review of Culture. 4.2 Across both culture and sport, 2012 oVers new opportunities for volunteering. Local Authorities, together with Volunteer Scotland, the Scottish Executive, and other partners will seek to ensure that the long-term benefits of volunteering are extended to “non-traditional” groups. 4.3 Scottish Local Authorities are also working in partnership to widen and support the pool of elite athletes in Scotland through coaching and training programmes, coach and club development programmes and the Institutes of Sport. For example, Angus Council, Dundee City Council, Perth and Kinross Council and Fife Council are working together to maximise the potential support, facilities and coaching expertise available to talented athletes in their authorities. 3226361001 Page Type [E] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 22 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

5. Economic Growth There are a number of ways in which Scotland’s economy can benefit from London 2012. Scotland welcomes the opportunity to host a quarter final in the Olympic football tournament. However, our other major venues and facilities should also bring economic benefit to Scotland, hosting training camps, conferences and seminars, cultural events and festivals in the run-up to the Olympic Games. Tailored packages will be available across Scotland, oVering a range of large and small, high quality training and conference facilities, accommodation, cultural programmes, business promotions and telecommunications links. 5.1 Scottish businesses should also benefit from winning contracts not only related to hosting of training camps but also to the wider delivery of the Olympic Games—in construction and manufacturing; hospitality and catering; design and marketing; languages and media; security and logistics; cultural and creative industries; and a range of other services. In tendering for and winning major Games contracts, it is likely that Scottish companies will in turn enhance their international reputation and be well-placed to bid for future Olympic contracts. 5.2 Local Authorities are ideally placed to add value to these potential economic benefits by ensuring links with regeneration, employability and social justice agendas and by enabling opportunities for economic growth related to the Olympic Games through the planning and procurement processes wherever possible and appropriate.

6. Promotion of Scotland as a World-Class Tourist,Learning and Business Destination The 2012 Olympic Games provide an unparalleled opportunity to promote Scotland, with its distinctive natural heritage, culture and quality of life, as a leading tourist, learning, sporting, events and business destination. From Shetland in the north to Galloway in the south, Scotland should benefit from the global exposure oVered—from the Olympic torch relay and other organised, televised showcase events to informal relationships built with visiting teams and nations. 6.1 Local authorities already have a very significant role in Scottish tourism, providing and maintaining attractions which drew almost 15 million visitors in 2001; supporting, promoting and delivering a wide range of international and community events and festivals; and investing in the tourism infrastructure. There is now an ideal opportunity for local government to work in partnership with Visit Scotland, Events Scotland, the Scottish Executive and other partners to develop a revised National Strategy for Tourism which incorporates, reflects and builds on the unique tourism and marketing potential of the Olympic, Paralympic and Commonwealth Games.

7. Flexible,Sustainable Sports Infrastructure While a Strategy is in place to deliver a small number of additional sports venues—stadia, velodromes, swimming pools and indoor arenas—which will meet international standards, there remains a well- documented need to improve and upgrade many ageing local sports facilities and venues across Scotland. Significant investment is required to improve the indoor and outdoor sporting infrastructure to meet the needs and expectations which will be generated by increased enthusiasm for and participation in sport and physical activity as a result of the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic events.

8. 2014 Commonwealth Games With the prospect of hosting the 2014 Commonwealth Games in sight, Glasgow and Scotland have a heightened interest in the 2012 Olympic Games. Already, the Commonwealth Games’ bid team has the welcome opportunity to benefit from the experience of the Olympic bid. Should Glasgow’s bid be successful, the run up to the Olympic Games will provide further invaluable experience for the Scottish Games’ organising team. Additionally, achieving the Commonwealth Games for Scotland two years after the Olympic Games will provide further opportunities to ensure the Olympic “legacy” is sustained and built on in Scotland.

9. Requirements While Scottish Local Government very much welcomes London’s successful bid for the 2012 Olympic Games and the opportunities it presents for Scotland, the benefits will only be delivered if a number of issues are considered and resolved, including: — clarity about how local authorities in Scotland can play their full role; — ensuring routes and mechanisms are in place to enable Scottish local authorities collectively and individually to play their full role; — development of a strategic response by the Scottish Working Group to the opportunities oVered and early dialogue with the Nations and Regions Group, British Olympic Association and London Organising Committee for the Olympic Games; 3226361002 Page Type [O] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 23

— resource issues, particularly concerning Scotland’s sporting facility infrastructure, which cannot currently be met; — clarity about responsibilities and mechanisms for marketing and promoting potential training and “holding” camps; — resource issues to enable wide participation in and support for the Olympic and Paralympic Games; — clarity about processes to ensure small and medium-sized Scottish businesses secure a proportionate number of contracts; — research on the potential “Olympic eVect” in drawing migrant workers from Scotland to London; — how Scotland will articulate with London 2012 on Olympic-related devolved issues; — resource and capacity issues related to co-ordinating delivery of benefits for Scotland—eg bringing together working groups, inter-council partnerships and consortia to develop, promote and deliver training camp packages; — ensuring that rural as well as urban areas of Scotland can benefit from the Olympic eVect. 15 November 2005

Witnesses: Councillor Graham Garvie, COSLA Arts and Leisure Spokesperson, Mr John Zimny, Director of Recreation Services, Angus Council and Ms Lindsay Macgregor, Policy Manager, Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, examined.

Q70 Chairman: I would like to welcome you to this to the Olympic Games. We can be very specific meeting of the Scottish AVairs Committee and our about that, but in general terms we are very keen to inquiry into the potential benefits for Scotland of the be engaged in the process, working through the 2012 Olympics. Can you please, first of all, introduce Olympic Games Committee and also the Scottish yourselves? Executive, through the Minister and her Mr Garvie: Thank you, Chairman. First of all, we committees. are very pleased to be here and thank you for the invitation. My name is Graham Garvie and I am a Q73 Mr MacDougall: In paragraphs 5.0 and 6.0 of councillor in the Scottish Borders and I am the your memorandum you refer to the possible benefits COSLA Spokesperson on Sport and the Arts. On for Scotland due to increased tourism and economic my left is John Zimny, who has been an Executive growth. Do you think that the Scottish Football Member for over 10 years of VOCAL, which is the Association’s decision not to participate in a GB Voice of Culture, Arts and Leisure Services, and is team will have an adverse eVect on the potential also a Director of Leisure Services for Angus benefits for Scotland, either by fewer teams basing Council. On my right is Lindsay Macgregor, who is their training camps in Scotland, by fewer visitors the Senior Policy Manager in the Convention of coming to Scotland, or indeed by other measures Scottish Local Authorities. that might be taken? Mr Garvie: I hope not. That decision has now been Q71 Chairman: Before we ask detailed questions do made and I think we have to move forward. I you want to make an opening statement? understand the reasons behind it and I think it is a Mr Garvie: No, sir, I think we are happy to discuss pity, but I hope that in place of soccer, if that is not the issues with you and hopefully not have too long to be at Hampden Park for one of the quarter finals, a session for you. we might find another event that might be considered to be located in Scotland: for example, in Q72 Chairman: The Committee is looking into the the Largs area, which has been decided against for potential benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics. the moment, but in view of the football decision I From a local government perspective what do you think they might revisit that with the organising see as the priorities in getting the best deal for committee. So we move on from that. The decision Scotland, and what do you see as the main obstacles seems to be made now and I think we should put that to achieving those priorities? behind us and move on to the next stage. Mr Garvie: Like you, Chairman, we are very keen to involve the Scottish people in the wonderful Q74 Mr MacDougall: Do you think there is a Olympic Games that London is going to have. So it danger—and I hear what you are saying—that the is not so much for local authorities but for the people SFA decision could result in Scotland actually losing that we all represent throughout Scotland that we events, and therefore revenue, for example, by the are interested in getting a bit of the action. We think re-siting of the opening match of the football this is a very good opportunity to do so. As to tournament to, say, the City of Manchester Stadium engagement with the Games Committee, that is and the quarter final scheduled for Hampden Park really a matter out of our hands, but we could being moved, for example, because the spirit and rehearse with you—and you have one of our papers intention, if you like, of the team has been broken which has been given to you—the kind of and all conditions, if you like, are there to be background and structures we have in place of what reconsidered. Is there not a possibility of that, or do we can deliver for the people of Scotland in regard you believe that that will not happen? 3226361002 Page Type [E] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 24 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor

Mr Garvie: I think the people who put the bid in, Q76 Mr MacNeil: Do you think that the initial who are running the games are big enough to realise reasons for having one of the earliest games at that this is a decision made by one particular sport Hampden, if not the first game, of the football part in Scotland and they will put that behind them. of the Olympic Games, was to in some way make the Certainly if I was in their position I would say, “That games relevant to Scotland? We know that the is a pity, I do not agree.” But it is not the whole of taxpayers in Scotland, as throughout the United Scotland that we speak for; let us move forward and Kingdom, will be contributing to the Olympic see what can be given to Scotland in place of that. I Games and that if the British Olympic Committee— really do not think that if they are big people, which I who told us, incidentally, last week, that fixtures and believe them to be, that they would hold that against places to be used in the Olympics were set in stone— Scotland, and I would be surprised and disappointed do you think the British Olympic Association will be if that happened. making the Games less relevant to Scotland? Taking Mr Zimny: Chairman, just to echo what Graham is up your point there, Mr Zimny, the fact is that the saying there, I think it is very important that we first game at Hampden could be absolutely nothing separate out the aspect of the SFA decision not to to do with the GB team and Northern Ireland team, participate in the British football team, from but it could be an Asian team playing a South actually hosting the event at Hampden Park in American team. Is the British Olympics Association Glasgow. I think we have to separate the two out. making the Games less relevant to Scotland if they Certainly from a COSLA level we are decide to take anything away from Hampden in disappointed—and also personally disappointed— what looks like a fit of pique? about that decision. That is a decision that any Mr Garvie: Chair, as I said before, I think we should sporting organisation has to meet, but we have to move on from this. The decision has been made and look at it from the perspective of what is best for I think that we should be constructive as to what we Scotland and to keep promoting Scotland very can achieve for the people of Scotland. We are who positively and proactively. I think it would be we are and I do not wish to comment on decisions excellent if we could have the Hampden event to made by other bodies; whatever they made them for, that is their aVair. We are here to look at what we can open the 2012 Olympics because it would put achieve for Scotland in the light of the present Scotland on the map. We should separate out the situation. facility, use and development from the SFA. I know it is a football stadium that happens to be the SFA, but if the opening event was at Murrayfield the SFA Q77 Mr MacNeil: Would COSLA then consider the decision would not be in question. The question of games to be more or less relevant to Scotland, given whether it is right or wrong for the Scottish team, that the game happens at Hampden, as was first they would not put into jeopardy the use of the suggested, or not? facility. So we have to keep pushing very hard to Mr Garvie: I think they are relevant to the whole keep the Hampden event very much as the opening world. In the scheme of things, for the Olympics to event for the Olympic Games and proactively sell come to Britain is fantastic, and because of a football decision made over one particular stadium I do not Scotland on that basis and be part of this excellent think that is relevant to the excitement of having the venture, because I think to lose the Hampden event world’s best athletes and millions of people coming it would be very diYcult to get any event back into to our country to celebrate this great international Scotland. That is the one we have and hopefully we event—I just do not see it that way, Mr MacNeil. will keep it, and I do not think we will get a like for like replacement. Q78 Mr MacNeil: Could I take it then that COSLA are relaxed if the first game is away from Scotland, Q75 Mr MacDougall: Other Members may want to so long as it is happening somewhere for the whole come on this, but would you not agree with me that world? it is more probable that something could happen Mr Garvie: On that particular issue, yes, but let us from that position rather than it might have been if look at something else. the position had been diVerent, because what we are actually saying is that the football authorities who Q79 Mr MacNeil: You are relaxed about leaving are linked to Scotland are saying, “We do not want Hampden? any part of it, although we still expect the benefits Mr Garvie: I am relaxed about most things regarding that come out of it.” I hear the point that is being sport, yes. If you tighten up on any sport, you will made and I genuinely hope, along with you, that that lose, that is my advice to you. attitude is not adopted. Mr Zimny: I think it is very important to separate Q80 Gordon Banks: I want to speak a little about the out the football team and the composition of that football side and then move on to a wider issue that team as a UK team as opposed to a home country has been talked about, about Scotland’s team in its own right. We have to separate that out participation. Ironically, the last time that GB won and hopefully the SFA will make that division as the Olympic football title was in 1908 when the well as us. That is our stance as far as the football Olympics were held in London—although we have team is concerned. As for Hampden, we still competed in group stages in 1960 and the welcome the participation of Hampden in the preliminaries in 1972. There was a viewpoint Olympic Games. launched by Jack McConnell that the home nation 3226361002 Page Type [O] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 25

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor championships should be re-launched and the Mr Garvie: I mentioned the sailing for Largs. We winner should be the team that represents Great were quite disappointed that Scotland lost out to the Britain and Northern Ireland in the Olympic south of England on that one, and we understand Games. First of all, do you have a comment on that, the good and valid reasons for that. But we would but do you also not think that the SFA’s decision— like that to be revisited, and it is interesting when and I understand what you are saying, that it is an looking at the Beijing Games, they are changing external body to yourselves, but we are looking for venues within quite a short period before the Games your opinion of that decision—had been taken seven take place. Someone said they are set in tablets of years before the Games, and we had the BOA sitting stone, but I do not think they are. If we put a strong here last week who are saying that decisions on enough case—for example, sailing is one that comes training camps will not even be taken until two years to mind—then we could press the Olympic before the Games. So we are ruling ourselves out at Committee to look at that again, or other sports that a very, very early stage. Would you not urge the SFA we could examine. So I think we can step forward to reconsider that decision? And I have another from this and look as to how we could actually find supplementary question which I would like to come some other sport to be located in Scotland, and I do on to, if you could answer that question. not think that is a dead duck. Mr Garvie: No, I would not. Q87 Mr MacNeil: There would seem to be a greater Q81 Gordon Banks: What do you think about the guarantee of wind in Largs than there would be in home nations scenario? Weymouth! Mr Garvie: Mr McConnell is entitled to his view. Mr Garvie: Yes; I do not know. Q82 Gordon Banks: What is your opinion on that? Mr Garvie: I am not going to comment on that, Q88 Ms Clark: In your memorandum you state that Chairman, with respect. I have stated my position, Scottish Local Authorities invest some £200 million we are relaxed about the decision, it is made by every year in sport and contribute about £140 another body and there are many other sports and million to economic development. Could you opportunities in a whole range of areas of benefit to remind the Committee how much both the UK the Scottish people. Government and also the Scottish Executive make available for both sport and for economic Q83 Gordon Banks: COSLA do not have an opinion development? on that, okay. Mr Garvie: We do not have that information. I am Mr Garvie: I am the spokesperson; I have not sorry; perhaps we should have had that information. consulted with all of my colleagues. I do not have We do not know it. an opinion. Q89 Ms Clark: That is fine, that is not a problem. Do Q84 Gordon Banks: We are trying to get COSLA’s you see yourselves as a major contributor when you opinion here today. On a wider scale there has been compare yourself with the Scottish Executive and an issue, some movement to promote a separate with National Government? Scottish team in the Games and not a GB, Northern Mr Garvie: Yes, we do, not only from a factual Ireland team. Does COSLA agree with the position of the figures that we can give to you, the comments made by Shirley Robertson here last week millions of pounds that we spend every year, but also that the best possible opportunity for Scotland and the fact that we are very close to the people. Not to for Scottish athletes to represent Scotland is as part say that MSPs and MPs are not, but there are more of a GB team? of us, there are nearly 1,200 councillors in Scotland, Mr Garvie: These Games are international Games and I think we are in touch with the needs of the amongst competing athletes from nation states. We people and are able to direct money perhaps in more are a Great Britain team in the Olympic Games, as I meaningful ways sometimes, complementary to understand it. national initiatives as well, I have to say—we work Gordon Banks: That is fine, I just wanted to know well together. I think our role is diVerent but your opinion on that. That is grand. I share your crucially important. views totally. Ms Macgregor: I think it is fair to say that local government is a significant player in both tourism Q85 Mr MacNeil: Would the same scenario hold and sport and culture more generally in terms of its true for the Commonwealth Games? contribution financially, certainly comparable with Mr Garvie: It is diVerent, is it not? I do not know the the Scottish Arts Council, sportscotland and other rules, I have not gone into that, but I think it is organisations at Executive level who are making diVerent for the Commonwealth Games, as I financial contributions. Certainly in terms of the understand it; there are diVerent rules for infrastructure, the benefits of having the range of participating nations. services available within local authorities, the actual contribution to tourism behind the scenes as well as Q86 Mr Walker: If Scotland does not get football upfront is very significant, so local government matches, which I sincerely hope it does, is there any really is well placed to coordinate provision across potential for any other sport, do you feel, to go to the board and to join up and enable partners to Scotland? contribute as well. 3226361002 Page Type [E] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 26 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor

Mr Garvie: I can give you an example, Mr up to the Olympics, it is to set the scene so that all of Chairman, of a whole range of initiatives that are the sports people in Scotland are working together. currently ongoing: Sport 21, Sport in the We have started with the Active Schools Community and major sporting events that local Programmes, getting young children in schools authorities undertake under their statutory duty to involved in physical activity and sport, and that do so. So, whatever you wish me to answer. again is making major strides into physical and mental well-being of all our school children, and we are making an alliance between the schools now and Q90 Gordon Banks: You refer in your submission to the significant role played by local authorities in the sports clubs very much at local government and promoting tourism. How are local authorities local level, and with the private sector, to keep planning to promote Scotland to encourage even youngsters involved with sport, particularly young more tourists to visit the country during the girls who tend to cease playing sport from about the Olympics and how are you going to do that in age of 12 and 13. We want to keep young people relationship with the partner organisations you involved in sport with the benefit for health in later mentioned in paragraph 6.1 of your submission? life, and with the carrot of the Olympic Games Mr Garvie: That is a very interesting question coming to the UK and hopefully a major event still because that is an agenda that still has to be on the cards coming to Scotland it gives us, certainly addressed, particularly as we are going through a local government oYcers, an opportunity to set clear major change in the delivery of tourism—if that is targets. They may not participate in the Olympics the right expression—with the rearrangement of but they can get the train down, they can fly down to Visit Scotland. But I hope that to be a developing London and see their heroes and the various situation under a new committee which has been set athletics and the sports that they participate in. It is up, I gather, by the Minister, Patricia Ferguson, to a marvellous opportunity for young people, and we bring the major players together—COSLA, Visit have the foundations now being firmly put in place Scotland and all the other players in the tourism across Scotland and we must build on these. I would business. It is a huge opportunity for us—a huge be very disappointed indeed if the Olympic opportunity—but I think that the arrangement is Organising Committee withdrew a major event from still to be put in place and we will certainly want to Scotland, and I hope that does not happen because be at the table to put in our input and add value to I believe it would be a disincentive to our young that progress. athletes. I think we have to encourage the Olympic Mr Zimny: I do not have the exact proportion but a Committee to speak to us to keep an event in substantial majority of tourism facilities in Scotland Scotland because it is London’s Games, yes, but it is are owned and managed by the local authorities—I a UK event overall. Taking up Mr MacNeil’s point, think it is National Trust Scotland—after that in the if we do not get the sport there are still the cultural hierarchy over 50% are owned and managed. So aspects that we can do, the cultural events based local authorities are a major player in the tourism around what is going to happen in four years that and cultural market place. Can I go back to lead up to the Olympics and then on to the something that you raised and Graham touched on Commonwealth Games in 2014. So there is a whole with regard to Sport 21 and how we are developing cultural and tourism aspect that Scotland has to in Scotland? A series of ministerial meetings ended oVer. It is not just about sport, it is a whole package with the publication of Sport 21 in 2002–03, and the and I think it is an exciting package that we could sell first phase of it runs up to 2007, although the whole and can sell positively, and through the National programme is to 2020. We have had informal Committee that Julia Bracewell sits on as a Scottish discussions with both the Scottish Executive and representative there is a plan to establish a Scottish sportscotland, VOCAL and COSLA to look at the Committee Forum to bring in local government and re-writing at the start of 2006. Obviously the Olympics and hopefully the Commonwealth Games the various quangos and Scottish Executive, Visit coming to Scotland are major factors in how we are Scotland, EventScotland, so that we all know what going to develop Sport 21 in open partnership. It is our roles are how we still feed that into the Olympic not sportscotland versus local government versus Organising Committee. As far as VOCAL is private sectors, it is very much everyone working concerned, we see the ball firmly coming into our closely together. And there have been major court and we have to play a part and we are up for successes in the Scottish National Institute of Sport it; we just need the opportunity to be invited to sit at and in regional sports academies. In my own area the the table. Tayside and Fife Institute is a fantastic success in Mr Garvie: Chairman, may I come back to Mr training and bringing out athletes, and that is with Banks’ point on tourism? I think there is a huge funding from an open partnership between Dundee, opportunity, pre and post Olympics, to say to the Angus and Perth and Fife councils all contributing, world that this is a fantastic event coming to Britain. along with the universities in Dundee and with Yes, come to London but we have so much to oVer sportscotland, and sportscotland is using that as a you—and indeed to other parts of the UK— pilot as an example of good practice. We need to particularly in Scotland, and come for a holiday for build on the success of these institutes for generating a week before or 10 days afterwards. That is a huge athletes for 2012 and 2014. So as an infrastructure in opportunity which I think should be explored by the Scotland it is working, and when they do the re- Committees that are looking at these things under writing for the 2007 publication, which will take us the government in Scotland. 3226361002 Page Type [O] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 27

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor

Q91 Gordon Banks: I would agree with you and I start dealing with the people and their own think that the recent G8 Summit in Scotland where particular needs. Some of the people will not come there was worldwide exposure of my constituency out in the evenings because of fear of crime, et cetera. certainly did us no harm, so something should be With their own physique they might not think they worked on. But when you sit around this table with are sports people, but we are making inroads the other bodies that are going to develop this through GP referral schemes, et cetera, to tackle strategy for attracting tourism to Scotland, do you obesity and diabetes, so instead of getting medicine see a logical argument emanating from that body you come and participate in regular exercise, and that we should maybe be focused on who we try to people continue quite well and move on with it. We attract, and so we go to maybe North American have to get into communities at very much a local countries and Australasian countries where there are level. It is a Scotland-wide problem, but there are some degree or roots back to Scotland? And do you hotspots. More aZuent areas are generally better oV think that is likely to give us more fruit than just health wise and we know that is because of diet and casting a wide net willy-nilly trying to catch they tend to use the leisure facilities, whether that is everybody or a section of everybody? local authority or private. But to get to the deprived Mr Garvie: You are always better to build in any areas and to get them involved in sport—and I know situation in life on the strengths that you have, and that Glasgow has been doing a lot of good work I think that is a very interesting idea. But I guess if I through various partnerships and promoting this, were at the centre organising things I would be and getting into local communities—it is not only concerned that Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds or getting people in the door of a leisure centre, it is whatever were doing the same kind of thing. So I talking to single mums, laying on cre`ches so that the think there has to be an element of coordination mums can have time to participate in sport or any from a UK perspective, but I think you could put a physical activity and it is getting to the local youths case together to argue, because of the reasons you on the streets to get them into midnight football and have given, Mr Banks, that there are certain areas of midnight basketball for very little or free cost, and to the world we should concentrate on that have a show them the benefits of sport. It is a long process, natural connection with Scotland. That may be a it does not happen overnight. Again, it is back to scenario that the central organising committee and what we are doing in partnership with sportscotland the government would actually sign up to, to try and on anti-social behaviour areas, et cetera, and get the things spread across the UK. working in close partnerships to bring people into involvement in sport. Diet is another important Q92 Mr Walker: One can see swarms of Dutch and aspect. If you say to people, “You have to eat V German camper vans heading up from the south sensibly,” it has to be a ordable; it has to be able to towards Scotland on a massive raiding party! be delivered locally. Again, there are good examples Mr Garvie: They come on the ferry to Rosyth! in the Glasgow area of wholesome food and cooking, simple things, how to cook and make a meal rather than buying ready made meals with all Q93 Chairman: The London organising committee the fats and salts, et cetera. So it is tackling the whole has set up a nation and regions’ group. Are the spectrum of a person’s life. Scottish Local Authorities represented on this group? Mr Garvie: No, we are not, and I think it is Julia Q95 Mr Walker: Why do you think Scotland’s Bracewell who is the chairperson of sportscotland, problems are any worse than England’s, if indeed who is the Scottish representative, but we would very they are? Are they worse than Liverpool, Newcastle, much like to be on that, we could add value to that. the poorer parts of London or Birmingham, or is it I am not looking for a job but there are experts in just something that the media has picked up and that the COSLA organisation and throughout local Scotland has this particular problem? Or do you authorities who I am sure could bring extra value to think it is a problem that stretches across that committee, so we would very much support communities wherever they are in the United that idea. Kingdom? Ms Macgregor: It varies even in Scotland. Some Q94 Mr Walker: In your submission you talk about areas have a very high participation rate within participation rates in sport between the well oV and Scotland, and it is not even as simple as saying that the less well oV. What do you think can be done to there are areas of deprivation and that is always narrow that gap, particularly with all the health where low participation rates are. I believe that men implications that are involved with people perhaps in Dundee are amongst the highest participators in from poorer backgrounds leading more sedentary sport and in some of the west coast areas there are lifestyles? low participation rates across all socio-economic Mr Zimny: Through our professional association we groups. So it is not quite as straightforward, and I have looked at this in some detail, and recent think you would probably find that similar situation research by Professor Fred Coulter is quite across England as well. It varies and there are interesting. We all thought that if you build the diVerent sophisticated and complex reasons for why facilities, build a sports centre, a swimming pool, that might be that are cultural as well, and I think they will get used in the community. We thought that that what we must not be complacent about is was the answer but apparently it is not the full believing that the Olympics, Paralympics and answer. To find out what the answer is you have to Commonwealth Games can suddenly help people 3226361002 Page Type [E] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 28 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor participate or encourage people to participate on Q99 Gordon Banks: A general question about their own just by virtue of having the Games. We participation figures of people in Scotland taking up have to start thinking now about how we use those sport from diVerent age groups and diVerent socio- Games as a way to build on what we are doing economic backgrounds. How does Scotland anyway; we must not rely on them alone as a means compare with the rest of the UK in relation to that? of increasing participation rates. But, on the other Are they so dismally bad or are they on par? hand, they can certainly add value to the kind of Mr Garvie: I do not know the whole of the UK strategies which we are putting in place at the statistics, but certainly we are getting better. We now moment to tackle those kinds of issues and to get have sports coordinators in place in schools to more information on exactly what is going on within increase the amount of physical activity for primary those communities that do have low participation school children up to two hours a week—which I still rates. Certainly sports like women’s football and so think personally is not a terribly high target, but it is on would be important in terms of providing other getting better all the time. How we compare with the role models for young women who are not currently rest of the UK, I do not have that information. But interested in sport. There are a whole range of ways I know that we are trying very hard as a Scottish in which we can tap into the benefits that the community, in governance in both local and Olympic Games and the Commonwealth Games national, to address the lack of activity in a can bring. generation that we have seen become quite obese. So that is a very high priority for all of us, but I do not have the figures. Q96 Mr Walker: It is strange because the Scottish as a nation you are better educated than the people in this country, I believe, and I hope that is not a racist Q100 Chairman: The huge participation rate V V statement. They are better educated and you would di erence in well o areas against under privileged have thought that that would have fed through into areas, do you have any strategy where you can say in five years’ time or 10 years’ time that the diet and food choices, and there is a juxtaposition V there that is quite interesting. participation rate of the deprived areas and well o Mr Garvie: As Lindsay indicated, there are all sorts areas will be the same? of complex sociological reasons, which it would take a university course to analyse, I suspect. But Q101 Mr Garvie: I cannot speak for every single certainly the Scottish Executive and Scottish Local council in Scotland but I know that the Scottish Authorities, along with the National Health Service, Executive place a very high priority on social are now addressing primary care as the priority, to inclusion, the agenda which I think nearly every really get into this, to stop it becoming a repeating council has signed up to. We are very concerned generational thing, which is our problem in many indeed that there are families in communities in parts of the country. Scotland who have no idea of what many of us take Ms Macgregor: We are certainly clear that the for granted involved in sports. So that is an agenda previous Olympic Games have not managed which is being addressed nationally by the Scottish necessarily to enable higher participation rates just Executive in partnership with the local authorities by virtue of having Olympic Games. Yet we want to through community planning and the National make sure that we do get to that point where it Health Service, all these partners working together. actually does leave that legacy, but we need to start But it will take a generation, I think, to work thinking about that issue now—about exactly what through this culture that we have inherited. the Games can oVer and how. Q102 Chairman: I can understand that the Scottish Q97 Mr Walker: Do you think that a Team Scotland Executive has a role to play but what I am asking is would lead to higher participation rates, if people in if COSLA has any strategy to deal with this issue. 31 Scotland could identify with their own heroes? Not councils out of 32 are members of COSLA. Do you that I am in favour of that, I am just asking that as have any joint strategy to deal with this issue? a neutral question. Ms Macgregor: At strategic level we certainly do and Ms Macgregor: I think Scottish participation at all there is a great opportunity at the moment as we are levels, making maximum use of the venues we have, about to refresh our shared Sport 21 Strategy— in whatever way, whether it is events or whether it is Scottish Executive with local authorities, training camps, but seeing some sort of presence in sportscotland and other organisations, community Scotland and also the presence of our athletes—and and voluntary, with an interest in sport. That we will have athletes from Scotland participating in strategy will be reviewed next year, and certainly the the Olympic Games in London—will undoubtedly Commonwealth, Olympic and Paralympic Games help to engender levels of interest and support. are an opportunity for us to build on what would have been happening anyway, in terms of what we hope will be sustainable beyond 2012. So that Q98 Mr Walker: It will be high profile. Andy strategy, which we have in place currently, will be Murray will be what, 25? revised next year and local authorities have their role Ms Macgregor: Absolutely, yes, and we must find as the delivery agents at the front end of that ways to build on that; whether events are in Scotland strategy. Local authorities are flexible, locally or not there will be Scottish athletes and that will be responsive and have diVerent ways of taking one avenue for us to take forward. forward that strategy according to local need. But 3226361002 Page Type [O] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 29

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor certainly they are members of and very often Q107 Mr MacNeil: You are not suggesting a coordinate local sports partnerships and have their global team? own local sports plans and so on, and it is an issue Mr Garvie: Who knows what will happen in the next which is at the forefront of all local authorities to Millennium. increase participation. We have contact with all children through schools, through communities, Q108 Mr MacNeil: And your oYcials? V through so many di erent services, but we are also Mr Garvie: OYcials do not have political opinions. well placed as a route for our partner agencies to get Mr Zimny: We do not have political opinions, but if in touch with communities and non-participants as we are talking about going down that route I would well. So it is a very important route for us, but I think have to look very carefully at the sporting it is important to recognise that partnership working infrastructure that we have in Scotland that the is how we are operating at the moment. We do not Scottish athletes and Scottish participants currently have a COSLA strategy, as it were, we are working enjoy, and could we cater for the Olympic sports with our partners in the Scottish Executive, squad? They do not all train in England, be clear sportscotland and others, and at local level we are about that, they will come from other home V locally responsible for a range of di erent plans and countries, training elsewhere, or indeed abroad. So partnerships that have emerged to meet local need. if we are to be serious about a Scottish team at some point in the future we would have to be careful about Q103 Mr MacNeil: Picking up on what Charles was the infrastructure and what can be aVorded and talking about, would COSLA be quite relaxed about what benefits can we give athletes who stay and train a Scottish team at the Olympics? I am thinking in in Scotland because it is not just the athlete, it is also particular of when the USSR became 15 nations they the coaching—you have to have Olympic quality increased their medals haul and increased the coaches—and all the infrastructure and support that amount of participants at the Games. From a local goes behind that. That is supplied at the moment authority basis, if you want to increase the amount through the British Olympic Team set up who have of people participating in sports, as we have been had many years of practice. The athletes know as an talking about, would you be quite relaxed about a Olympic athlete that that support is there and is Scottish Olympic team? freely given. We do not have that support in Mr Garvie: It is a national participation; it is a Great Scotland at the moment for the amount of athletes British team and I am not sure how Scotland would that may come through to represent Scotland, so we qualify on that basis to take part. have to set an infrastructure and a cost that goes with that. Q104 Mr MacNeil: But over and above that? Mr Garvie: Over and above what? Q109 Mr MacNeil: I wonder if Olympic athletes train in their own nations or are they amongst Q105 Mr MacNeil: Over and above that situation, nations when they are doing their training and what would COSLA think of an independent team, preparations for the games? COSLA’s view? Mr Garvie: I believe so. Mr Garvie: I am sorry, Chair, I do not understand the question. I mean, we are a British country, we are Q110 Ms Clark: Picking up on the issue of the legacy part of an international community in all sorts of that the Olympics may have, you say in your things and the Olympic Games are part of that and memorandum that local government must ensure those are the rules. How can we have a Scottish team that the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games as well as a British team? add maximum value to regeneration, health Mr Walker: I do not think my colleague is suggesting improvement, community safety, lifelong learning, that, I think my colleague is suggesting further down social justice and other cross-cutting strategies and the road, for example, if Scotland got independence, programmes. Could you maybe expand on how you which may happen, how would you feel about— think local government can contribute to that to make sure that we maximise the legacy and the Q106 Mr MacNeil: I do not mean further down the benefits that the Olympics and the Paralympics road, I mean now. We have the Convention of bring to Scotland? Scottish Local Authorities here today, not the Mr Garvie: We put all the right words in our Convention for British Local Authorities, therefore submission. In the real world we are 400 miles away you are a Scottish body and I would like your view, from where the Games are going to take place, and being a Scottish body, of a Scottish team at the I think that we should, as a society in Scotland, with Olympics? our English colleagues running the Games, look at Mr Garvie: My view is that there should not be a what we can achieve in reality on the ground, and I Scottish team at the Olympics because we are a think that would be the exercise I would like to British team entering the Olympics and individual undertake. I think there are huge potentials for Scots will go under that banner, as British; we are involving people in many ways. I am particularly Scottish and British, and European and probably all interested personally in the training camps coming members of the human race. I do not see any to Scotland—the spin-oV from that is terrific. I live diYculty. What would stop an able Scot competing in Peebles and many teams for other sports come to in the Olympic Games under the British flag? It is stay in Peebles Hydro Hotel and the youngsters are great; it is terrific to be British and Scottish. absolutely thrilled to bits; for a week they have 3226361002 Page Type [E] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 30 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor international stars on their doorstep. That kind of have the best rugby team by far; their second team involvement and spin-oV I think is extremely could beat anyone else. It is interesting, is it not? We important. It is not structured at all; it is just an build big stadia and our teams are not so good. So encouragement to be involved in the area to which my general view about this facilities thing is, yes, we that team comes. So training camps interest me need them, but I think we have concentrated on greatly in concentrating on a strategy for Britain to stadia—Hampden, Ibrox, Celtic Park, Murrayfield, try to spread out the training camps from various all the others we have in Scotland—to the countries throughout the UK; and some, I disadvantage of people investment, and that is where understand, come for months and months before the we are now, and I would like to see a much bigger Games. That could have a really interesting spin-oV concentration on the participation in any way we to the area. That is my main answer to your can think of of all age groups in Scotland in the question. Olympic Games and hopefully the Commonwealth Games if they come to Glasgow. I was very privileged, Chairman, recently to be presenting Q111 Ms Clark: One of the things we were told last medals at the Special Olympics in Glasgow. My week when we saw the Olympics Committee was goodness me, the spirit of the Olympics for me was that nobody should be thinking about developing a there. It makes you wonder about the Games that facility that they would not want and that there was are now before us. I was really touched by the fact not a need for anyway, but obviously one of the that ordinary people, mentally handicapped people hopes we would have would be that the Olympics were taking part on the podium and it was making a coming means that there are extra resources huge diVerence to their lives. That is what interests available to develop facilities that the community me for the people of Scotland. However important needs anyway and have a long-term future. Will you facilities are, of course. I think perhaps we have be giving any thought to how local authorities in taken our concentration oV the ball a bit in regard to Scotland can make sure that they maximise the the needs of our people. potential benefits to ensure that we develop the Ms Macgregor: I think it is possibly the same answer sporting facilities that we already have? in terms of your previous question on regeneration, Ms Macgregor: I think there are two levels there. how the Olympics can instrumentally help those At the moment there is already a strategy in place kind of social policy areas, and I think probably it is across Scotland for the provision of national again that local authorities and their partner infrastructure, which will have the potential for agencies, through community planning, are international global competitions and clearly those developing and have developed strategies for venues will also have great usage by local people— improvements in all those areas, and it is really I am thinking of the proposed Glasgow Arena, for about how can the Olympics add value to those? I example, and the refurbished Commonwealth Pool think that thought will start on that fairly early on, in Edinburgh. Those kinds of facilities will be there but there have to be some levels of community both for international competition and for local ownership, whether that is around bringing the people. But one of the major issues within Scotland, community together culturally around the Olympic no doubt within England as well, is the aging Games, about supporting local athletes, about infrastructure of community sports facilities and I adopting their local training teams. I know that local think we have to make sure that we are maximising authorities are also keen to work in partnership with the potential for communities across Scotland; that each other where they can provide facilities for if we get the crest of the wave right and people are teams across local authority boundaries and have wishing to participate in physical activity as well as that kind of ownership within their communities sport that we have those facilities in place with a jointly, and I think that increasingly Scottish local long-term strategy for their maintenance. Clearly authorities are very well placed to deliver that kind sustainability is at the heart of our strategy in terms of agenda as well. But it is very much about the of the Olympic Games and Commonwealth Games; regeneration strategies being there and how can the we do not want to build white elephants which will Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games and be of no use to anybody beyond the Olympics. But Paralympics add value to that and get in with it is not just about focusing on those national communities? It is very important. buildings, important though they are, it is also about making sure that there is a clear strategy for maintaining those good facilities that we do have Q112 Mr MacNeil: You mentioned New Zealand across Scotland, and that is the challenging one, and I wonder if there are any climatic eVects in what certainly, in terms of the resources and capital that is happening in New Zealand, but we will leave that it will take. to one side. You can answer it, of course, though. Do Mr Garvie: Can I make a comment about the you see any change in Lottery funding coming into facilities generally, which I have observed, Scotland in the next seven years as a result of the Chairman? I know we have to have facilities for the Olympics and the resources that we might need? Olympic Games and international occasions, Mr Garvie: I hope so because I am all for Lottery certainly, but as a society I think we make too much funding money wherever we can access it. I do not play on facilities and not on the people. I spent some wish to encourage people to gamble but it is been time, for example, in New Zealand. They have one quite a helpful spin-oV where I am, where local national stadium for rugby and every other one is authorities are also strapped for cash, to have this built up with scaVolding when they require it. They extra dimension. So if there is more money from that 3226361002 Page Type [O] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 31

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor source I am in favour of it. Whether it will come or certainly in the main has been funding for facility not I do not know. Who knows? But certainly it has development and that is very diYcult for a small been a dimension to providing facilities for a whole rural authority—diYcult no doubt for the Glasgows range of activities without which I do not know what and Edinburghs as well, but for the small rural we would have done. authorities it is very diYcult. I think to see any change would be to the detriment of the rural Q113 Mr MacNeil: In paragraph 3.4 of your authorities for provision of facilities in the future memorandum you detail sports facilities which are because of the Olympics’ need to draw the money in being built or upgraded independent of the Olympic for the Olympics aspect. So do not change the and Commonwealth Games’ bids. Mr Garvie, Lottery rules and, if you can, make it easier for small keeping it local, you maybe highlighted some things authorities to bid in, and to be successful. With that are happening in the Borders and perhaps you regard to the legacy, this is very dear to my heart are able to compare Scotland to Norway, say, with because I keep reading words—and I was reading a similar climate in this sort of area, and what them coming down in the plane and in the past few resources and facilities would you look for Scotland days—which the Olympics Committee are saying, to have throughout the country in years to come? and what we are all saying is that we want a benefit, Mr Garvie: I think facilities have to be reviewed. I an increase in sport participation from this. I am was around when the Commonwealth Games were keen that we do set ourselves realistic goals and being prepared for Edinburgh for 1970. Fantastic targets that we can measure after 2012, after 2014, to new facilities, Meadowbank Stadium and the Royal say, “Did we actually meet these targets, did we Commonwealth Pool, but they are all extremely achieve what we set out in 2005 and 2006 for the tired now and 30 years on they need to be renewed, young people and all age groups to achieve?” So to and I think Edinburgh is addressing that on the say to the legacy in 2015, “Yes, we did achieve that other side of the city, and you heard from my and we are now sustainable as a sporting nation in colleague that Edinburgh is going to invest a large Scotland.” We have a marvellous opportunity, sum of money in the refurbishment of the pool. So it Sport 21, which we made mention of earlier, and the is a continuing cycle and as professional demands go Minister in Scotland is due to make a statement up there are more demands for facilities to meet before Christmas on her view and outcome of the those higher standards. So you can compare it area recent cultural commission work that reported in the to area or country to country but it just depends on what the needs are at the particular time, and we summer, 130 odd recommendations, so we are have to focus now on the Commonwealth Games waiting to see the outcome of that exercise. We also coming up and that is an area we will have to want to look at the tourism strategy for Scotland examine in Scotland as to what can be provided with EventScotland and Visit Scotland. Local through taxation to provide these new facilitates. authorities are involved in all of these areas and But it is an ongoing thing; it is like your house, you while there are three separate pieces of work I think have to keep repairing it and renewing things and it is essential, not just for the Olympics and getting it in shape for the new generation. Commonwealth Games but overall, to have an overarching strategy for Scotland as to where we Q114 Mr MacNeil: How do you think Scotland want to be as part of the wider body of the UK in compares to Norway in this respect? Europe. I have a major involvement in tourism in my Mr Garvie: I do not know; I do not know the own area; I run the tourist facilities, I run the leisure Norway situation. facilities, I run the arts and cultural side, so I know Ms Macgregor: I think economic and cultural what is involved in that. But across Scotland at the diVerences as well makes comparison diVerent, but highest level and, indeed, in this Committee in certainly climatically it has its emphasis on skiing Westminster, we have to, I believe, sign up to the and snow and there is a cultural diVerence. vision of Scotland of where we want to be, and work very clearly with our tourism colleagues, to work with our cultural colleagues and our sporting Q115 Mr Walker: It is a great shame that Scotland’s mountains are not 2,000 feet taller, is it not, because colleagues to the benefit of everyone, and if they you would be one of the best ski resorts in the build it on the back of the Olympics and later the western world! Commonwealth Games we can set realistic targets Mr Zimny: Can I come back on the Lottery and and expectations that can be met. One of the major legacy? With the Olympics coming on board I would benefits I believe that we have working in Scotland hope that the money allocated to Scotland through is that there are only five million of us; we know the Lottery does not diminish in any way. Angus everyone around the table generally, we know who council is a small rural authority and I know that to speak to to try to move things forward and I think from running leisure and the cultural business in my that is a major benefit of the devolved government in own county. I have a very supportive council and I Scotland to be able to achieve and work in that close sit at the top table arguing my case, along with partnership. But we need to support the Scottish education and social work, but there are statutory Executive and this Committee to say to the oYcers, undertakings that the council must do; sport and “Yes, we agree with it,” or, “We do not agree with it cultural matters in the main are not. They can but let us put it in place and let us take this provide “adequate services”—that is the opportunity because it will not come round terminology in legislation. The Lottery to date again.”—the Olympics will not come around, 3226361002 Page Type [E] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 32 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor certainly in my lifetime, to the UK again. So if we Ms Macgregor: Certainly sustainability is in there miss that I think we do ourselves a grave disservice. for all local authorities across Scotland and I think It will be a lot of hard work but the Scots are the theme of the Olympics is certainly going to be renowned for their hard work. reinforcing that for all of us, that we must really make this an opportunity to put our money where our mouth is on sustainability, not just on Q116 Gordon Banks: Can I ask a supplementary on environmental issues but clearly on community what we were talking about there? Do you think that issues as well and on the factor of venues being COSLA will set about trying to spread the benefit sustainable into the future across the board. Local to Scotland? Part of my constituency is authorities already have that very strongly within Clackmannanshire, which has always been the poor their community planning agenda and within their relation to Stirling; Stirling has always been the single authority agendas also. So these issues have all major attraction and benefited, some might say, at come forward from local authorities and the the expense of Clackmannanshire. I think of Perth commonalities across them have been incorporated. and Kinross council area where the people living in Similarly, in terms of added value, with the Kinross have a feeling that most attractions, et modernising and eYciency drives for local cetera, go to Perth. Do you think it is part of government, added value is now a must-have for all COSLA’s role to spread the benefit or do you see it of us, and clearly the Olympics and Paralympics like as being centralised in certain blocks like Edinburgh, nothing else at the moment provide opportunities Glasgow and Perth? Or do you see benefit coming to for us to add value to the range of strategies that we all the council areas in Scotland? have, several of which are up for revision next year. Ms Macgregor: Those large authorities you have This gives us a good opportunity to add value mentioned have already indicated their willingness through these sporting avenues. Quality, I think, as to bring in their neighbouring authorities, smaller part of that eYciency agenda that, yes, there are authorities to work in partnership with them, and areas where we must make savings but not at the they recognise that even within the Glasgow bounds expense of quality, and certainly with something as they would have to go outwith to deliver, whether it high profile and global as the Olympics then quality is mountain biking or sailing, whatever, and Perth must be there, and we are quite clear within our and Kinross similarly have already recognised that it strategies for national buildings and so on that would be beneficial for them to work together in quality will always be an intrinsic element in that. So some areas of the Olympics with Stirling, Angus, these are the three elements which all local Dundee and Fife, and so on. So those are regional authorities have responded on as elements that they partnerships that are happening in response to the would like to see in there. Similarly the four bullet Olympics as they already happen in diVerent points on the outcomes are shared by local parameters across tourism and other events. That is authorities and shared by our partner agencies. They not something that will be new to local authorities underpin our Sport 21 strategy as it stands at the and COSLA can certainly be supportive of it and moment, so we are all signed up to that—it is the will continue to be supportive of that. In parallel direction in which we are all going. Similarly for the economic development benefits that we are looking with VOCAL we also have the chief oYcers from for, you would find those also in our national economic development who come together similarly tourism strategy that is in development just now. and have sub-groups around tourism and related Only last week local authorities, including leaders issues. So they have regular opportunities to come and chief executives, came together with Visit together and share policies and ideas on maximising Scotland and EventScotland for a major conference, the benefits, not just for their own authority but also and I think there are two or three similar conferences across Scotland. So I am sure that we will continue planned over the next few months. Tourism is high in that vein. up the shared agenda and the issues that you were Mr Garvie: It is quite interesting, Chairman. I chair raising around should we target specific countries or the COSLA Art and Leisure Group, which includes should we have a kind of universal tourism strategy, sport, which represents 31 of Scotland’s 32 councils I suspect that there will be a twin-track and that is an and I am not quite sure whether it is a good thing or important question. But I think that there are bad thing, but we have never had a division in two already those mechanisms in place, which is very and a half to three years, and I find that quite fortunate, to take forward all of those bullet points interesting that we have a consensus on just about within sport, within tourism, within economic everything regarding our work. I find that development. The trick is going to be to join them all fascinating because I go back to my own council and up because at the moment until the Olympics come we have divisions on everything. So I think there is along we are working to our diVerent strategies and a cooperative agenda in COSLA to do what you we perhaps need to look again at the kind of are asking. mechanisms that we have in place in response to the opportunity to join them all up. So that is perhaps something we need to think more closely about with Q117 Gordon Banks: In your memorandum you our partner organisations. identify three underpinning principles for delivering the Games and four priority outcomes. How are local authorities working to support these principles Q118 Mr MacNeil: We have talked quite rightly at and to achieve these outcomes? length about London having its own Olympic 3226361002 Page Type [O] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 33

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor

Games in 2012. Do you ever foresee a time when a formula—which I think disempowers and Scottish city might bid for the Olympic Games? disenfranchises the true meaning of democracy at Mr Garvie: I was involved in discussions in my local level. So you are on to a hobbyhorse of mine, previous guise as a local authority chief executive a Mr Mundell. I think the control that councils have long time ago—it was before that actually, in over their finances and tax-raising powers is so Edinburgh—of a joint committee that went into this minimised now as to become marginalised, although whole issue and Glasgow and Edinburgh came politicians of all parties still make it a big deal. The together and spent quite a lot of time and resource fact of the matter is that we only raise less than 20% into examining that, and the conclusion was no, we now in actual council tax income. We ought to be could not do it as a country, and certainly now I looking at how in fact we make local authorities think that the situation has worsened since then more accountable by going back to what it used to because of the demands of a modern Olympic be—I think it was 50-50 20 odd years ago. That for Games and all sorts of developments that have taken me is the major issue about the viability of Councils place since the early 1980s, late 1970s. and the responsibility of members to the electorate. I know council tax is a big issue but it is for me more Q119 Mr MacNeil: What were the main reasons? a question of the structure of the financing of local Mr Garvie: We could not do it; we just do not have government that is the issue here. the resources to do it. The infrastructure requirements were so huge that it would have put in Q126 David Mundell: So you are saying that your place an infrastructure that would not have been ability to achieve the goals and priorities that you set required after the Games, I remember that issue out is really dependent on how much money the coming up—this is 20-odd years ago now—which Scottish Executive gives you. London could easily provide, or Paris or wherever Mr Garvie: How much borrowing we are allowed to else. do under the prudential formula, how much money we can get under the PPP systems. We are of course Q120 Mr MacNeil: You were looking at 20 years creatures of Parliament. The answer to that is, yes, ago. we are dependent on the decisions of the Scottish Mr Garvie: We were looking at the scheme 20 Parliament for how we are structured and financed. years ago. You can add as much as you like to the council tax to pay for all of that but that is a hugely contentious Q121 Mr MacNeil: Which games? issue which would not be acceptable to the people, Mr Garvie: I cannot remember; 1990 something. so it has to be dealt with at the centre because most of our money comes from there. Q122 Mr MacNeil: 1992 or 1996. Mr Garvie: Something like that. Q127 David Mundell: Basically what you are saying Q123 David Mundell: But no country as small as is that any of the things that are to be done, there Scotland has ever hosted the Games, have they? would not be public acceptance for it to be funded Australia had the lowest population, did it not, but through council tax? huge land space? Mr Garvie: I do not think we could fund some of the Mr Garvie: Yes. It just did not stack up. And both huge proposals that were being put forward solely cities, with the then Secretary of State, we decided to out of council tax; it has to be done either through drop it; we could not do it. And I think that must be borrowing money, through PPP or special grants or an even worse situation now than it was then. Lottery funding or private sponsorship, as other countries have done. But, no, council tax will only Q124 Mr MacNeil: Manchester had a bid. take so much and any responsible politician wanting Mr Garvie: Yes. to raise it above reasonable levels to do with income streams I think would be irresponsible. Q125 David Mundell: Can I ask you what you think might be an impediment to achieving your goals. Q128 David Mundell: So in terms of what additional One of the issues, I suspect, might be finance. I do support either the UK or government and the not know if you were here in time to hear Scottish Scottish Executive would provide, has COSLA questions in the Chamber today, but the issue of identified what specifically would be required either council tax and concerns about levels of council tax in terms of a financial package or borrowing was being raised, particularly in relation to changes? Aberdeen and indeed Inverclyde, which the Minister Mr Garvie: For what purpose? identified as the worst run council in Scotland. In relation to what your goals are how is the funding of local authorities going to impact on your ability to Q129 David Mundell: To allow you to achieve all the achieve these goals? things that you set out? Mr Garvie: This is a very big subject about the Ms Macgregor: We have not yet got to that point funding of local authorities, which if we had three and we are at the early stages and clearly that will days we could go into it, and about which I feel have to be done across the board and again it will strongly. I think most of local authorities’ funding have to be done in partnership because there are very comes from the centre—I think it is the 80-20 few areas in this where it would be entirely within the 3226361002 Page Type [E] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 34 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor local authority’s orbit. However, there will be issues of pounds would be very nice; to get to London in such as, hopefully, attracting training teams and so two and a half hours or whatever would be terrific. on where an extra amount of investment might That is probably unrealistic, but that would be enable that to go forward, and there needs to be fantastic, would it not? Would that not be a some kind of audit of those facilities where, if the tremendous spin-oV for generations to come for the only requirement were a little additional Scottish economy and for the Scottish people? But I accommodation, it could enable a training team to presume you are talking within a smaller financial be encouraged in, then that needs to be provided to frame than that, Mr Mundell? make sure that we can build on that possibility. But we are not at that point yet. Certainly Glasgow and Q133 David Mundell: It is an interesting suggestion some individual authorities are at the point of doing anyway. Are there other things within the ordinary their own audits around facilities and how they can parameters, things that are blockages in other team up, whether it is with universities, public systems, planning systems, inter-governmental schools, all sorts of options in terms of delivering working. Are there other things that are going to some of these elements, but in terms of hard and fast need to be done? figures at the moment that bit is probably a little Mr Garvie: I do not see that at all, Chairman, from further down the line. where I am sitting. I think we have a very interesting consensus politically both in COSLA and VOCAL. We have this new duty of community governance Q130 David Mundell: What you are saying is that and people are working together and I think it is very many of the goals and objectives could not really be interesting. Maybe I am being over optimistic, but I achieved on a business as usual basis. just think that there is a desire to move forward Ms Macgregor: Our main strategy is that we are together as a country in all sorts of areas to make hoping to widen participation and deliver athletes things better. I honestly do not see any blockages for the Olympics and so on within our existing that are obvious to me that would stop that. We strategies and indeed financial requirements. want this to work for Scotland. In all sorts of areas However, there will be additional elements, in we want to do better, and I think since the particular around the training camps, with probable Parliament was established we actually have a promotion of tourism because of the added value situation that is going to benefit us. that that might bring in, for which extra funding would probably add value and make it even more Q134 Gordon Banks: Last week we heard how two successful than the existing strategy and resources Scottish companies have been successful in winning could deliver. But we are not trying to go out with the contracts to produce the bid document and to the bounds of existing plans and policies with the supply flags and banners. There are, of course, some Olympic Games. However, there will be some very significant contracts that are going to be let in elements where individual local authorities and the run-up to the Games, not least to build some of partners will be seeking additional funding in order the new arenas that are going to be necessary to to be able to deliver that quality of package that support the Games. Is local government able to oVer would just make the diVerence. support to Scottish firms to enable them to win such Mr Garvie: Incentive grants from the government of contracts, particularly those in Scotland itself, or several tens of thousands of pounds to bring a small would there be a risk that any such support could fall or medium sized country training camp to Scotland foul of the EU regulations? or anywhere in the UK would be the extra resource, Mr Garvie: I generally think that the market takes an example of the kind of resource that we would care of itself and that good companies will get the expect to come from outside the council tax business. We had a very successful company in the arrangement. Borders, who got all the business for the British Lions, outfits, for example, and other companies you have mentioned. I think the way that local Q131 David Mundell: Which would be particularly authorities can be economically active and of help is welcome in Peebles! using all the powers they have available to them Mr Garvie: Absolutely, very nice too! when companies come at them. To make a rent-free period to start with or easier entry to new buildings, that kind of facilitating role. But generally in my Q132 David Mundell: Other than finance is there experience economically companies know where anything else that you think is an impediment, that they are in the market and know what they are you require the UK government or Scottish about, and I think that to try and find an agenda Executive to assist with, other than the financial which is almost a false one, when we have very lively issues which you have covered? companies and where they know very well what is Mr Garvie: The reality, as I said earlier, Chairman, coming up with the Games, would be a mistake. I do is that we are 400 miles away from the Games, and not think we need to get involved unless we are that is where we are. We have to think what is asked. possible. I mean, if I were being completely outrageous a nice new bullet train line from Scotland Q135 Gordon Banks: Would you feel that with the to London, which could be used afterwards to way we implement some of the EU regulations, et connect promptly to Europe, at the cost of billions cetera, that we implement them in the most 3226361002 Page Type [O] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 35

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor appropriate way? Other countries tend not to Scotland is to benefit fully from the 2012 Olympics. implement them in such a transparent way as we do, Who do you consider should play the lead role in and do you think that we might fall behind the addressing these issues? international bidding structure that is going on? Ms Macgregor: It is clarity across all of them of Because there is no doubt about it that the knowing who the lead is. I do not think there is international bidding in national contracts will be necessarily one lead across all those issues because used significantly in this example. So do you think some of them are devolved issues that the Scottish maybe by our playing by the rules sometimes that it Executive can take forward and others are local is to our disadvantage? government issues which local government can Mr Zimny: Speaking as an oYcer of a rural council pursue. I think the issue really is being clear right and knowing the financial guidelines and restrictions from the start about mechanisms for inputting to we have follow in governance rules and regulations, the Great Britain agenda, ways in which Scotland that are inescapable. Also the rules and guidance as and England will interface on those issues which set out by Audit Scotland. So I see the role of local are devolved, but additionally there will have to be authorities in being able to give assistance, other a corporate approach—ensuring that local than maybe some business start-up works or government, as we have already outlined, is a something of that sort from an economic significant player across all the issues that we hope development standpoint, to be very diYcult or Scotland will benefit from and ensuring that local unachievable, because we certainly could not government has a voice into all those diVerent subsidise a bid going in. I do not think that is part mechanisms. So I think that probably there is not of local government’s remit, and I am sure that the any one lead although we need to be really clear auditors would have something to say to us on that. about where each of the leads are and the routes I do know the restrictions, working on a day to day in for local government to make sure that we can basis and audit trails that have to be in place, and really play the role to deliver the best Olympics for quite rightly too—it is taxpayers’ money. My Scotland as well as for the rest of the country. council is the first council to be audited under a new Mr Garvie: Chairman, in parallel with that the regime with Audit Scotland. We did quite well, I am Minister has just asked me to chair a committee for pleased to say, but it is very thorough and certainly the rest of Scotland for the Commonwealth Games’ from the subsidising aspect of this I do not think that bid for Glasgow. So I think that it is very important is a real option at all for local authorities to consider. that we actually learn from the Olympic process Mr Garvie: And I think we should play it by the and hopefully make a successful bid for Glasgow rules. and Scotland for 2014. Mr Zimny: It should be a level playing field for all involved, and it should work to UK guidance, so we should be able to make it a level playing field. Q138 Chairman: I can understand that you are all Gordon Banks: But that is only within UK bidders partners, local government, COSLA and the that it becomes a level playing field. Scottish Executive, but some organisation has to take the lead. In your view which organisation should take the lead, local government, Scottish Q136 Mr Walker: There is a broader issue and that Executive, or even the British Government? is the government, our government, the IOC, Mr Garvie: There is a theory by Etzione that talks whoever is charge, must encourage bids from SME1 about emergent leadership, and I think that in any businesses as well because I imagine that the human situation what happens depends on who is company you were talking about which did the at the table and what they have to oVer. I suspect Lions’ shirts was an SME. So we have to make sure it will be the very excellent Minister, Patricia that it is not just large multinationals but actually Ferguson, who will take that role on. If she does SME, local domestic businesses getting to take part not someone else will fill the gap. in this. Mr Garvie: Lochcaron—and Mr Mundell will know them—a very successful woollen Q139 Mr Walker: How confidant are you that manufacturer, did their own thing. An enterprise Glasgow will win the Commonwealth Games? I company may assist but I think that is true of most would love to see it win the Commonwealth Games companies. They know their business; they will be personally. Are you confident that you can do it? where the market is. Mr Garvie: Yes, we are very confident. But the Mr Walker: It is just important, I think we are Scots football team were as well! No, we are agreed, that we make sure that there is the confident and a lot of work is about to start—a opportunity, that there are contracts suited for huge amount of work. SME bids. Q140 Mr Walker: Who else is in the frame, from Q137 Chairman: In the final paragraph of your intelligence? memorandum you set out 11 issues which you Mr Garvie: I think there is a Canadian city and an believe need to be considered and resolved if African city, as I understand it. There are others but there are three who are serious contenders. But 1 Small and medium sized enterprise the good thing about it is being invited in by 3226361002 Page Type [E] 30-10-06 17:19:42 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1

Ev 36 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

15 November 2005 Councillor Graham Garvie, Mr John Zimny and Ms Lindsay Macgregor

Glasgow, with the encouragement of the Scottish Sevens or mountain biking coming to the Borders, Executive for an all of Scotland bid to be put but maybe that is something we can address together—it is not just Glasgow—and with that together, David. experience of London we will look at that very carefully. Q142 Chairman: Can I thank the witnesses for their attendance this afternoon? Before I declare the meeting closed do you want to add anything in conclusion, perhaps to the areas that we have not covered this afternoon? Q141 David Mundell: We can be confident that Mr Garvie: I think we have had a good hearing, people will get something out of this one then. Chairman. I hope our presence has been helpful to Mr Garvie: An interesting point, Chairman, that is your deliberations and I genuinely wish you well in made because there is a rule that you have to be your conclusions in moving this forward to benefit within 20 minutes travelling time for the all the people of Scotland. Thank you for Commonwealth Games of any event. That rule inviting us. does not subsist, as I understand it, for the Olympic Chairman: Your evidence will be helpful to us, Games, and I would very much like to see Rugby certainly. Thank you very much. 3208392004 Page Type [SO] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 37

Tuesday 22 November 2005

Members present:

Mr Mohammad Sarwar, in the Chair

Gordon Banks Mr John MacDougall Ms Katy Clark Mr Jim McGovern Mr Ian Davidson Mr Charles Walker

Witnesses: Ms Julia Bracewell, Chairman, sportscotland and Mr David Williams, Chief Executive, EventScotland, examined.

Q143 Chairman: Could I welcome you both to this decision-makers in those sports to Scotland—is it meeting. As you are well aware, the Scottish AVairs the performance development professional, is it the Committee is conducting an inquiry into the national coach—with events and things to try and potential benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics; bring them in, show them our facilities and see if we I am delighted that we have another great Scottish are able to then bring them back as part of the sportswoman appearing today, Julia Bracewell, who Olympics. I think if we get the 2014 Commonwealth has represented both the UK in the Olympic Games Games, Scotland becomes even more attractive to and Scotland in the Commonwealth Games. Before certain countries because they can use it as a home we start on the detailed questions, do either of you from home for two major events, and clearly if there have an opening statement you would like to make? are other events happening—all the sports have to Ms Bracewell: No. have pre-Olympic events and tester sessions when Mr Williams: No. they test out the whole way that the competitions are run—if we can attract some events to Scotland, Q144 Chairman: You are, of course, appearing again, we will be attracting teams and we would today not only on behalf of your particular hope and expect to run training camps on either organisation, but also on behalf of LOCOG as side of that at the same time, because we would Scotland’s representatives on the Nations and see benefits for our sportsmen in training with Regions Group. When the BOA and LOCOG top athletes and for our coaches in seeing the top appeared before us a couple of weeks ago, we were coaches there. told that the venues for the actual events were as set Mr Williams: I might just add a retrospective. I have out in the bid document, and therefore Scotland been in Scotland for about two years and prior to that I was the director-general of the Department for cannot look forward to any events other than those Tourism, Sport and Racing in Queensland, so when already being held at Hampden Park. What are the Olympic Games were announced in Sydney we sportscotland and EventScotland doing to ensure set up a taskforce to ensure that we maximised the that Scotland attracts, for example, training benefits of the Olympic Games to Brisbane, which facilities for athletes? was about 1,000 kilometres from Sydney. One of the Ms Bracewell: There will be a number of things that most successful areas we had was actually attracting will happen for the training camps and preparation training camps to Queensland, we attracted 179 camps. First of all, I have been asked to chair the separate teams from about 48 countries, so about group in Scotland that is going to coordinate the 2,500 Olympic athletes at some time trained in Nations and Regions equivalent up there to Queensland. I would like to say—and we will be coordinate the benefits for Scotland across tourism, doing this in Scotland—we targeted specific sport, culture and business. One of the benefits countries; we targeted in Queensland the wealthy obviously is for sport. These will be a slight IOC countries that we knew would take their teams economic impact as well if there are training camps. to Australia for pre-Olympic training camps over Where we are is that LOCOG itself will produce a the three or four year period. We targeted countries brochure advertising the training events and and specific teams—we approached them quite often facilities in 2008, and they are talking about Y directly, although SOCOG (Sydney Olympic a liating all the facilities that could host training Organising Committee) had a major coordinating camps. So we would obviously work with LOCOG role, but in Queensland we wanted to make sure that to ensure that all our facilities, both existing ones we maximised the benefits. We did a lot of direct and the ones that we are building through the approaches to countries and teams within those National and Regional Facilities Strategy, are part countries, and several local authorities in of that process, but—and we will give you more Queensland also took it upon themselves to information on this—there will be an awful lot of approach other countries, Olympics committees or informal things happening as well. It may be diYcult sports to attract teams, so we had a very proactive to attract whole nations because most of the nations approach and a very successful result. I expect send their teams oV on their own to diVerent training Scotland will be very proactive in terms of trying to camps—I know when I was a fencer we used to go to attract pre Olympic training teams. Poland for pre-Olympic camps, whereas other sports went to other places. We will be working with Q145 Gordon Banks: You mentioned that you the sports as well to see how we can attract the targeted your resources and targeted your customer. 3208392004 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Ev 38 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams

Do you think there is some merit in targeting some sort of bidding war as it were then we will not countries that have traditional Scottish links— be able to attract some of the people? You also did Canada, America, Australia where there is a not mention the question of facilities, because what significant number of Scottish expats and where that I am not clear about is the extent to which we have might be a useful method of attracting people to got facilities in Scotland that would be attractive to Scotland, to come and use the facilities that are those that might seek to find a training base. there? Mr Williams: In respect of the Games in London Ms Bracewell: That is definitely a way to go and also there will not be as many teams running pre- that plays into whatever international agenda we Olympic training camps, bearing in mind that the have as well up in Scotland. Some of those countries bulk of the wealthy national Olympic committees will be able to come and bring an economic benefit that would travel and are in the northern hemisphere to us, some of the nations we would have to bring and the time zones are pretty good for them, so I do and pay for them, but where there are countries we not think we will see many training camps in the UK. are trying to help internationally I think there are In the southern hemisphere you are looking at the opportunities there. Certainly, I think we would do wealthier countries—Australia is establishing a that and also where we have already got the links it European Training Centre in Italy—but New is going to be easier to do it either through the Zealand and Japan are obviously very attractive. I athletes or through people who sit on governing suppose the climate anywhere in the UK is pretty bodies and know each other well. Clearly, Scotland much of a muchness in terms of weather conditions. in the Commonwealth has got a great position, very V di erent to how England is placed within the Q148 Mr Davidson: Would you like to clarify that? Commonwealth Games Federation, so we have a V Mr Williams: In terms of facilities, we do have areas chance to do stu through that as well to bring the where we have got quite good facilities but Julia training camps. might like to comment on that. Ms Bracewell: One of the advantages we have got Q146 Mr Davidson: I wonder if I could ask both of over the rest of Europe is that we speak English and you to follow up a bit about Queensland. Targeting for the athletes it is getting used to the country that is one thing, attracting is another. I am not quite sure you are going to be staying in and all the cultural what factors it was that made people want to go to changes that that brings with it and the type of things Queensland. Was it facilities, was it climate, was it a you will be exposed to. For the indoor sports, financial package? I can see that on climate Scotland climate will not matter quite so much so we are in the and Queensland do not compare exactly, but I am process of rolling out this national and regional not sure about facilities, for example. Can you just strategy up north, which will give us ten new give us further details on that? facilities; including indoor football pitches, a Mr Williams: Climate and facilities were two of the velodrome, an Olympic swimming training venue issues that attracted people, but I would say that the and stuV like that, all across the country. Those bulk of the very wealthy national Olympic facilities should all be on-line in 2009–10, so the committees are in the northern hemisphere. velodrome egwould be something where, frankly, as Australia was always going to be a challenge in terms long as the track is of the right dimensions—there of the distances of travelling, time zones and jetlag, are two diVerent types of track—we should be able so we knew that a lot of northern hemisphere to bring quite a few people there and the climate countries would want to have training camps in should not play into that. Australia to prepare their athletes for the travelling, the jetlag and competing. We also knew we had the Q149 Mr MacDougall: Could I just ask a question advantages of climate—the winters are probably a following on from Ian’s point. Because of the fact better time in Queensland than the summers and the that we are talking about Australia and there were southern states of Australia have quite harsh V extremities that you could work within and that gave winters—so we did not o er financial packages or you an influencing factor, the point you are making inducements, although some of the states and some there about Britain is that the weather conditions are of the cities did because it became a bit of a political not that dramatically diVerent, they may be a slight imperative to attract teams—it was the most bit colder in Scotland than they are down here tangible outcome of an Olympic Games if you could generally speaking—but that by definition would say that you attracted X number of teams. Some of imply to me that the competition would be even the states and cities were having problems so they V tougher because there are not other arguments to did o er incentives in respect of accommodation bring into it that could actually persuade somebody and some travel. In Queensland we did not have to to come into your area. The natural inclination I because we had natural advantages in climate and would think then is convenience, you want to be as facilities. close to the Games as possible to allow your athletes to be properly trained and less fatigued by travel Q147 Mr Davidson: Can I just follow that through in et cetera. How do you overcome that? terms of what that means in Scotland? Presumably Ms Bracewell: We have an advantage in that the logic of that for Scotland is that we will look for Edinburgh and Glasgow airports are an hour away people from the southern hemisphere, but the from City Airport. It will be more diYcult to get question of climate—we do not have the same from parts of England to London than it is to get to attraction. Are you saying that unless we get into London from Scotland, and we have got good 3208392004 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 39

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams facilities through Glasgow, through Largs, with the Q152 Gordon Banks: A point and then a question. national centre there, all within an easy bus ride We keep talking about the distances, that the away. Also, when you go as an athlete there is going distances are a long way and within UK parameters to be some degree of wanting to protect your athletes maybe it is a long way, but talking about the bigger from what is going to happen to them when they get countries like America, Canada and Australia, these into the Village, so you are not going to want to take distances are minuscule to the distances that people them somewhere where there are massive diversions from those countries are used to travelling, so there and stuV, so anywhere where we can get the athletes may be some benefit from the fact that the UK is a into a nice secure environment is going to be small set of nations that Scotland can benefit from, attractive to people. We have to sit down and be very because we have this mindset of big distance but the careful about what do performance directors of distance from Glasgow to London to somebody sport want and then make sure that we actually from America is very small. provide that. I think if we are very clever and get Ms Bracewell: If it helps, for the Commonwealth performance directors from other nations over, we Games in Melbourne next year, Scotland are going would be able to figure that one out quite quickly. to do their training camp at Bendigo, which I believe Transport-wise, we are in as good a position as is two hours away from Melbourne. Our swim team anybody else. before then are actually going to go away to another part of Australia to get some outdoor training, so when you look at what sports want the distance Q150 Mr MacDougall: It is more or less the fact that actually that sports people themselves travel—and athletes may see a value in peace, quiet and you are talking about international athletes who are tranquillity and that would oVset the distance; used to jumping on a plane and having to go therefore that is probably an advantage that has to somewhere for a weekend competition—I do not be sold very harshly. think an hour’s plane flight should be diYcult. Ms Bracewell: You walk into an Olympic Games and the minute you get there, you come out of the airport and there are people thronging the streets. It Q153 Gordon Banks: The question that I wanted to is an amazing experience from the word go and you pick up was that you, David, said that Australia had want to try and make sure that your athletes are already made a decision and come to a deal with ready to deal with all of that, so a wee bit of peace Spain. That is actually quite enlightening because and quiet before they go into complete hype is when we spoke to the British Olympic Association a actually quite welcome and I think that talking to couple of weeks ago the indication was that performance directors and coaches we should be countries would not be taking these decisions until able to sell quite a lot of Scotland quite well on that. 2009–10; in fact, pre-meeting we were talking about Mr Williams: I concur. We found in Queensland that, so that is actually quite a stunning thing for us that a lot of the teams did not want to go to the cities, to hear. The BOA implication was that it was too they wanted smaller places with less distractions for early, it would turn people oV by trying to lobby the athletes. them for these sorts of things now and we should not be wasting our time until years to come. That is quite obviously not the case. Q151 Mr Walker: Where were the training camps Mr Williams: This is something which I have read for Barcelona and Greece, because they may have a and I am assuming it is correct. It is an Australian jump on us, they have already got the infrastructure, training base for the northern hemisphere because they know how it is done, perhaps they are just going Australians obviously compete out of season and a to get repeat business? lot of the top teams come over to compete in their Ms Bracewell: Atlanta was the first Games whereby oV-season. They therefore have a base in Europe the BOA went and put training camps in. For that they are using which—I do not know whether it Barcelona each sport did what it wanted to do and is the Australian Institute of Sport or the BOA, but for Athens there were camps in Cyprus but there was they have a venue to train in for certain sports. also one going on in Spain because they could not fit Again, an Olympic team may have four or five everybody into Cyprus, and even within Cyprus— diVerent training bases, based on the facilities in a for example, for the athletics team there were some particular area. If you go and have a look in this down by the coast but the endurance guys wanted to country—teams that want to train here for rowing get higher up into the hills, so they split the venues or cycling, there are only three international even within Cyprus. I would not imagine, if you standard rowing facilities in the country and about want outdoor sports, you are going to go to Cyprus the same number of velodromes, so if you want to when you have a completely diVerent climatic bring your team to train in the UK in the two or experience. Indoor sports were terribly hot and three years prior to the London Games then unbearable there so come here where it is a bit nicer. Scotland is very well placed because it has one of the For Athens what you are looking at is maybe some three international rowing centres and will have one of them have got jumps on us, but it is a completely of the three velodromes as well. I think the diVerent Games coming to Britain than it would be Australian base is more of a year-round training to Athens. It is a challenge but not one that clever base for Australians who are coming over here for marketing and promotion cannot overcome. the northern hemisphere summer season. 3208392004 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Ev 40 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams

Q154 Gordon Banks: But it is never too early to start. the business community, through bodies like Ms Bracewell: One of the things we have to be Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands slightly careful about is that first of all Beijing today Enterprise and the CBI. What Nations and Regions is the Olympic city, and therefore you are not have done is created a level playing field for supposed to be proactive until London becomes the everybody in Britain, and for us to maximise the Olympic city, so we have to be careful about that and benefits that that is going to give us, we have to be LOCOG is trying to come up with a system whereby exceedingly proactive. So already it is how we people that jump ahead and are unfair to other parts network and coordinate with that group, and then of Britain would be named and shamed. We have to what we learn from that group we take back to be sensitive, therefore, but it depends whether you interested parties within Scotland. are trying to attract a whole Olympic committee or whether you are trying to attract a team, or a particular sport, or particular things with diVerent Q160 Mr McGovern: We have already heard in the countries. The BOA is obviously very cautious opening questions that the venues are now more or about the protocol. less settled, they were settled as part of the bid. What do you think are the most important and significant ways that Scotland could best benefit from the Q155 Mr Walker: What scope is there for attracting Olympics? world championships to Scotland in the run-up to Ms Bracewell: There are two big ways. First of all for the Olympics to show oV the great cycling arenas sport, there is a chance to do something really special and fencing arenas? and to capture the enthusiasm and demand for sport Mr Williams: Reasonable, in that most Olympic that the Olympics is going to unleash, and we should sports will look to have their world championships be able to involve communities in the Olympics, or a major international event in the UK in the years whether it is through the torch parade, whether it is leading up to the Olympics. We are looking at the through educational or cultural programmes. For us World Badminton Championships in 2011 and in Scotland we have got Sport 21 which is a national World Cup Mountain Bikes in 2011 as well, so we sporting strategy which says that by 2020 60% of the have started to identify Olympic sports where adult population will take part in sport once a week. Scotland has competitive facilities and we are There is an awful lot that goes to make that happen, looking to secure some of those as well. so what we would hope is that 2012 is a big staging point on the way to 2020, so that by then we would Q156 Mr Walker: Is mountain-biking an Olympic hope we have got the facilities, the infrastructure in sport? terms of people and coaches, in place to be able to Mr Williams: The cross-country element is an capitalise on that demand and educational Olympic sport. programmes as well. So there will be a huge benefit to sport and indeed we have been speaking to the Q157 Mr Walker: Do you know where it is taking Scottish Executive as to what finance is required to place near London? really do this properly, but there is a big chance Ms Bracewell: Weald in Essex. there. Where the big economic benefits are, are in the fields of tourism and business, because within the Q158 Mr Walker: Ah, of course, the Weald business structures there will obviously be Mountains. construction contracts, contracts for materials, Ms Bracewell: The venue is an old English country contracts for the goods. If LOCOG is going to build garden. a village the whole of the flats are going to have to get kitted out with furniture and fixtures and then Q159 Mr McGovern: How are you promoting there are all the contracts during the Games Scotland’s interests as part of LOCOG’s Nations themselves for the supply of goods. There are going and Regions Group? Is it part of a pre-agreed to be so many contracts around, but there are going strategy? to be two themes—cultural themes and Ms Bracewell: For Nations and Regions I attended environmental themes. For example, Hi-Fly, a the first introductory meeting that has happened—it Scottish company who designed all the banners for met at the end of last month—and the first proper the bid, produces banners that are sustainable and full meeting gets going in January, so it is early days. can be reused and therefore they have won this Obviously, we have a fulltime coordinator contract and they have discovered that they are one appointed by the Scottish Executive as well and we of the only businesses in the world who do this and, have been asked to come up with local plans to know as a result, they have had to scale up their business what are the bigger items that we need LOCOG to to meet the demand. There will be all kinds of help us resolve, and then we would clearly be feeding products that may come out just as an into every option we have got there. There is a environmental theme for the Olympics for Scottish tourism group that Visit Britain sits on so we would companies to grow on the back of, as well as just the be ensuring that all our tourism stuV is used as well contracts that will come for that four weeks of the within the bigger tourism promotion. When it comes Olympics and the Paralympics through that to promoting the business interests then we have summer, and then all the contracts in the lead-up to asked for a timetable of when all the contracts will be just get everything ready. So I think there is a huge out for tender and then we will make sure that that is business benefit. Yorkshire did an analysis and they taken back to Scotland and communicated through reckoned it was about £600 million to Yorkshire just 3208392004 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 41

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams on a pure population basis—what is the population arrived to take Manchester on. I think that this time of Britain, what is our share of it, 600 million. If you what we should be able to do is place Scots into the look at the net benefit from the Commonwealth Olympics who will be making sure that there is a way Games in 2014—and we have not got the same cost for us to learn what is happening, and then it will be structure because we are not paying for the Scots that organise the 2014 Commonwealth Olympics—Scotland should be able to come up with Games. huge benefits for business as well as our sporting legacy. Q163 Mr Davidson: Manchester did not get it. Ms Bracewell: This was the Manchester 2002 Q161 Mr McGovern: I understand. Still on the work Commonwealth Games. They did not go through of the Nations and Regions Group and the Olympics bid process this time, but it was how notwithstanding what you say that Beijing is the did you organise the Commonwealth Games and a Olympic city so you are not able to jump the gun, are lot of the knowledge in that was Australian and you able to bring this Committee up to date with any English. Once we have done the London Olympics progress that has been made or decisions reached by that knowledge, that intellectual legacy on how to the group. Is it in line with the strategy that you run these events will sit, hopefully, within British mentioned earlier? and Scottish people, so that when it comes to Ms Bracewell: The Nations and Regions Group, as running the Commonwealth Games in 2014, we are in the British Nations and Regions Group, that is the people that organise the Games and then in years doing what it said it would do in its first meeting in to come run other events around the world in the January, and the strategies and the plans will really way the Australians have done. be worked up from then on forward, because it is still early days on that. Within Scotland I have been Q164 Mr Davidson: I just want to be clear though, asked to chair the 2012 Scottish steering group and you are saying that having the Olympics in London we have identified all the diVerent key agencies that will make a tremendous diVerence to Glasgow’s we want on the group. We have identified how it will chances of getting the Commonwealth Games. work through diVerent sub-groups looking at sport, Ms Bracewell: There are two things. Remember that one looking at business and tourism and another Scotland in a Commonwealth setting is very looking at culture and education. So that is all going separate to England and there is no doubt we will be according to plan and, clearly, the quicker we can get able to say we can give you a good Games because that group together, the quicker we can start we will have all this experience. The only time it has devising the strategies that are needed to optimise ever been done before, where there has been an these benefits. I have got a chance to speak next week Olympics and a Commonwealth within two years, to various NDPBs1 and local authorities and there is was in Canada, so any argument that Canada might a big meeting going on about 2014. We are going to have used that this was not a good thing goes, use that as well to talk about benefits from 2012 and because they have done it. I see amazing start raising the profile there, getting people thinking opportunities once you have got our sports people about how do we actually optimise all this for through, doing well on the Olympic stage, then Scotland ourselves. coming home and putting on a Scottish tracksuit Mr McGovern: Thank you very much. and walking into Hampden—it is just something incredible that will really ignite the nation. So I think Q162 Mr Davidson: Can I ask you about the the Commonwealth Games becomes even more relationship between the Olympics and Glasgow’s important for Scotland following on from an Commonwealth Games bid; can you just tell us how Olympics, because just the amount we will have you see the two linking together, and does having learned in terms of performance sport, in terms of the Olympics make Glasgow a cert for the how the Games work, the Scottish businesses will get Commonwealth Games? a second chance to do exactly the same types of Ms Bracewell: There has been a huge voting analysis things that they have already done, so for me the done on the Commonwealth Games and, in a way, Commonwealth is the real icing for Scotland. I do we are in a very, very good position to win that and not think we can lose by it, to be honest. it is ours to lose in a way. We are up against Nigeria, and Canada will decide soon which city it will Q165 Mr MacDougall: You mentioned to my nominate. We have a bit of a march on everybody honourable friend Jim McGovern that there are and the plans are all in place for Melbourne in 2006, business benefits that could come to Scotland from when the Commonwealth Games are on, to try and the Games, and we have been told that two Scottish start winning the votes that will be needed to win the companies have indeed been successful in winning 2014 Games. I see amazing synergies between the contracts to produce the bid document and to supply Commonwealth Games in 2014 and the Olympics in flags and banners and so on and so forth. You 2012, and I think we can learn an awful lot from mentioned yourself the peace and tranquillity aspect London. In a previous life I was on the board of of selling Scotland as a place that would be very Sport England in the lead-up to the Manchester bid attractive to actually have camps in; in that respect, for the Commonwealth Games and once Sydney got how much influence can you place as LOCOG in its Olympics out of the way this group of Australians terms of influencing companies in that way, to say this is the location to invest in, this is the best 1 Non-Departmental Public Bodies place, bearing in mind that you have some 3208392004 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Ev 42 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams tremendous opportunities ahead for building plans and development plans for clubs to try and get structures et cetera—despite the fact that they may this whole middle ground moving and to really not want to build new all the time, they maybe want increase participation that way. to invest in existing premises, but there will be opportunities for new build as well. In that respect Q167 Mr Walker: Is there anything you are doing on will you have a role to play there or do you think that diet because diet plays such an important part. I will be outwith your remit? mean, doing an hour of sport a week is ruined if you Ms Bracewell: If it is new buildings within Scotland have chips seven days a week. that we are talking about, obviously to the extent Ms Bracewell: That is not sportscotland’s role. that we need those facilities generally we should build them. If we are talking about building a facility Q168 Mr Walker: I know, but are you linking with for just the Olympic Games or as a way of maybe the local authorities? attracting a holding camp, or a preparation camp, Ms Bracewell: Yes. What is unique about Active that probably would not be economically viable, so Schools around the world is that sport education it is more about building the facilities that we need and health are coming together, so part of Active generally for sport and then using the benefit of the Schools is about proper diets as well. It is not fact that there might be some other people coming to necessarily our bit of the programme, but it is in that that. Where Scottish business wins is in being a programme. supplier of goods or services into LOCOG, and I think that is where we need to do a huge job in Q169 Mr Walker: What is more important, creating communicating how business can get involved in elite athletes or getting as many people as possible that, what the timetables for bids are, if it is right that participating in sport as often as possible within if you can add an environmental, cultural or Scottish society? educational theme to your bid you are likely to do Ms Bracewell: I do not think you can have one well. I am sure that in Scotland having the people without the other. To get people participating you round the table that we are going to have within this need role models and you need them to think that group, we should be able to produce ideas for they could be great. Even at our own age I expect we cultural programmes, educational programmes etc. still think we could win the local club badminton That is where I see the big business benefits, rather championships or whatever it is, and you will not get than building new build facilities just for 2012. the elite without really strong participation because our elite is only as good as the base of the pyramid at the bottom. The two of them completely go Q166 Mr Walker: There is a huge diVerential in together and if you have any doubt about it, just participation rates in Scotland between rich and look at what Andy Murray has done for tennis. We have got Tennis Scotland screaming for more poor. What are you going to do to narrow that gap Y and how are you going to work with local authorities development o cers to cope with the huge demand to do that? that has come just as a result of Andy’s success. That is one of the huge challenges for us with the Ms Bracewell: We have a huge issue here. Declining Olympics in that we know we are going to win participation rates are happening worldwide, so we medals in sports in which we have never won them are not alone. It even happens in the mighty before, we know that we are going to get surprise Australia, but that is all part of our Sport 21 results. Too often after an Olympic Games a sport programme. We have recently put in this great has said we were not ready for that. Take curling, programme called Active Schools which is a way of curling won their Olympic medal in March and at getting schoolchildren more active—walking to the end of the curling season they had no way to school, playing in the playground—and it is also capitalise on that. Is English cricket going to about PE, getting two hours of quality PE and about capitalise on the Ashes going into the winter? For us, running extracurricular activities. To run those a lot of it is making sure that the governing bodies extracurricular activities you need coaches and and everybody are ready to capitalise on that volunteers to come in, so this programme is actually demand when it all comes through. That I think is kick-starting all kinds of community initiatives. what is exciting about the Olympics, it is something There are now coordinators in virtually every we all would have loved to have done in sport, to secondary school in Scotland, and in clusters of tackle participation and everything. We have a primary schools to do this, and once we start turning chance now to do it because sport has gone higher up around the trend of children not being active, we are the agenda. beginning to cut into declining participation rates. We have obviously got facilities and programmes Q170 Mr Walker: Take a punt, where are we going going on and there is also work at sportscotland. We to win medals? In which sports are we going to win have been very good at the active schools bit and medals where we have not won medals before? also the elite bit, we are very good at elite sport, but Ms Bracewell: We are going to have to win them in there is this huge bit in the middle that has not really all kinds of sports where we have not won them been tackled, and for that we are piloting before because the BOA wants us to come fourth in programmes called regional partnerships where we the Olympics and top in the Paralympics. To just will bring clubs, coaches, governing bodies and the give you some idea about that, we won 20 medals in local authorities together to come up with facility Athens and we are going to have to win about 60 or 3208392004 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 43

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams

70 to come fourth in the table. Our bankers, like the look at how we tackle those same areas where there rowing, sailing, cyclings of this world can maybe add is social deprivation and try and get those children one or two, but they cannot triple their medal haul, involved. There have been examples like Kilwinning, so we have to start looking at judo—I would love my where there has been all kindof investment made to own sport, fencing, to produce a medal, but I do not upgrade the pitcher and get diVerent clubs oV the know if they will—and hockey. People like that have ground. That has been a big success story and we not won a medal for a while, but then we have also need to repeat it in other places. So we are trying, got a whole raft of sports that have never competed and if we had a lot more resource I am sure we could in an Olympics before where, maybe, we cannot get do a lot more. them a medal but we can get them credible success, and that is your basketballs, volleyballs and handballs. If they go and then come eighth or ninth Q172 Ms Clark: We heard evidence from COSLA it will be an incredible result and will set that sport last week and they referred to the significant role up to go forward, so we are sitting down trying to played by local authorities in promoting tourism plan where all the medals will come from and in and also discussed what the tourist potential was Scotland we are also looking at what are the sports surrounding the Olympic Games. How are you where there is maybe an easier medal, could we working with local authorities in planning to hothouse people in them? People say to you that if promote Scotland to encourage even more tourists you are a female heavyweight rower then there is a to come to Scotland around the Olympic Games? medal on oVer, so can we find some heavyweight Ms Bracewell: COSLA will have a place on the rowers to go through. We are all sitting trying to Scottish coordinating group and VisitScotland and figure out what that is and talking to our EventScotland will be on that group as well. performance directors in each sport saying “Do you Certainly one of the sub-groups is charged with think you can get there in time?” looking at how do we maximise tourism benefits to Scotland, so I would imagine that COSLA will be highly involved in that. Hopefully next week when Q171 Mr Davidson: Could I just follow up the point we speak to COSLA we will start getting some of about the diVerentiation between the take-up of those ideas coming back as well. sport, and I understand your point about the success Mr Williams: It is very early to have a tourism of Andy Murray drawing in a whole number of strategy in place. I’m sure VisitBritain will develop youngsters, but it would be a fair bet to say that the a UK strategy and then home countries will develop vast majority of those are middleclass youngsters their own complimentary strategies. Scotland is from comfortable backgrounds, who already have presently putting its structure in place with an access to some sort of facilities, rather than being Olympic 2012 fulltime secretariat and taskforce youngsters from poor backgrounds without access chaired by Julia. to this sort of thing, who have never done it before and never seen a live tennis match and so on and so forth. Is there any eVort that you are making Q173 Chairman: You will have heard about deliberately to focus on those who are from the C-ScOT’s campaign for a separate Scottish Olympic poorest backgrounds, in the most deprived area? In team. Julia, as was said in my introduction, you have a constituency like mine, you see, I see little evidence represented both the UK and Scotland. Are not of it; I see lots of organisations where volunteers C-ScOT missing the point; is it not possible to be spend a lot of time scrabbling about trying to raise both Scottish and British and to be proud to money to fund t-shirts and so on for the teams, but represent both teams? they just give up because they do not come forward Ms Bracewell: I think so. Personally, when I went to to be volunteers if they have to raise money to keep Barcelona, 50% of our ladies’ fencing team were the teams going. I do not see them getting the sort of Scottish and 50% were English, and we all worked support that middleclass areas take for granted. there together, we had British tracksuits and as you Ms Bracewell: There are some interesting things enter the opening ceremony you remember where going on. First of all we have got to have the facilities you have come from in life as you walk on that track. and the people to take all these youngsters through. So I believe that you can be Scottish and British. We If we can open up the schools in Scotland, making must not forget that the London Olympics is going facilities accessible and aVordable, we can start to give us automatic qualification, as Britain, to changing it around. In various parts of Glasgow they many of the events, so sports such as handball, are running community clubs now, so we have a volleyball, basketball that would not otherwise whole host of clubs coming into the schools, paying qualify today, will take part in the Games. We have nothing, so we have then got the facilities and we a chance to get Scots who play those sports into an have got somewhere for the clubs to go, because in Olympic Games through a combined British team, some of these deprived areas or poorer areas they and that is huge. We will have more chance of getting have not actually got the local facilities. If we can more Scots in the team and more medals without start opening schools, start doing this multi-club going through the European zone which, with the approach so that the admin does not put people oV, greatest respect to the southern hemisphere, is the then we will start getting some synergies. One of the hardest zone to qualify through because we have got goals within Sport 21 is to increase participation in all those former Soviet countries, we have Germany, social inclusion partnership areas. I know SIPs are France and Italy who are always in the top ten going and as part of our review of Sport 21, we will nations, so we would be doing a bit of a disservice if 3208392004 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Ev 44 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams we went a completely Scottish Olympic route when Q177 Mr Davidson: Can I clarify whether or not you we had this golden opportunity to get Scots there are saying to us that in some sports like fencing there through the automatic qualification. are not enough Scots of top quality to be able to provide as it were a Scottish team of top quality, whereas if you are drawing from a larger pool you Q174 Chairman: Is it not the case that, as far as the are able to get a critical mass which then does allow Olympics are concerned, the total is greater than the you to compete as a team at a world level? sum of its constituent parts, and that the best way to Ms Bracewell: That is right. The top British fencer ensure success by UK athletes is to have a single today who made the Olympic final is a Scot which UK team? proves that we are doing okay with that, but you do Ms Bracewell: I believe so, absolutely. I sit on the need a wider pool, you need as wide a pool as you board of UK Sport, the body for elite sport, and a can get. If we decided to hothouse then maybe we request for extra funding has gone to DCMS to could pick sports oV and hothouse Scots through a deliver this medal success. If that money comes then system, but really we are going to do better with as Scotland will benefit in a way that we could not, just big a pool of talent as we can achieve. as a purely Scottish team, so I think that absolutely it will be better. If you look at Chris Hoy and Shirley Robertson, they were fundamental to success in Q178 Mr Davidson: The other point you made that I their teams. Even though Chris got an individual did not quite understand was I think you mentioned medal, the fact that he is around cycling helps raise handball and some other things where there was cycling and Shirley obviously was in a boat with two automatic qualification which would not happen for English girls. I am absolutely convinced that if we Scotland; I must admit I did not quite understand that at all. pick the best in Britain—and my job at sportscotland Ms Bracewell: Within the Olympics, because the is to ensure that the best of Britain includes as many Olympics can only cater for a limited number of Scots as possible—then we will do much better in the athletes and events, many events are actually much Olympics than if they all went for separate nations. smaller than world cups or world championships. In most events you only get 12 nations taking part in an Q175 Mr Davidson: There are two points in that Olympics, so you have to pre-qualify through. When which I must confess I do not quite understand. Can you are the host nation you get automatic you just clarify for me this point about fencing, qualification so you do not have to qualify through which I understand could be an individual sport. I Europe. Today we know we will have a British do not see what diVerence it made to you as an basketball, British volleyball and British handball individual competing whether or not you were part team in, so whereas we would not qualify through of a Scottish team or part of a UK team, in terms of tournaments in Europe today we know those teams your ability against someone else. Maybe you can will automatically qualify for 2012. So now we can just clarify that for me. do whatever it is that we have to do to get that team Ms Bracewell: I suppose it did not make any to perform credibly on that day. diVerence when I was fencing individually, it did not matter whether I wore a Scottish or a British Q179 Mr Davidson: Let me be clear that I tracksuit, I could only do what I could do. When it understand this. Taking handball and basketball, came to home internationals or international team you are saying—without wishing to be unfair—the events, sometimes we went as Scotland, sometimes quality of players available in Scotland for a we went as Britain, and we did better in a British separate Scottish handball or basketball team means team than we did in a Scottish team. We probably that they would not qualify as one of the top 11 or fought with a lot more pride in the Scottish team, but 12 or so through the European route to go to the the result was better in the British team. Olympic Games. Could you give us a list—unless you are able to recite it oV just now—of how many sports to which that might apply? I have never heard Q176 Mr Davidson: Can you just clarify for us why of this before and I think it would be helpful if we that is? knew that there were, say, 10 sports or 15 sports Ms Bracewell: I do not know what it is. I grew up to where a separate Scottish team are not likely to do home internationals from an age of 13 or 14 qualify and therefore there would be no Scots where Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and participating, whereas by having a UK team there Wales come together and have fencing team events. would be the opportunity for Scots to participate? It was huge, and Scotland versus Wales was always Ms Bracewell: It is the British basketball team today the best match with the best atmosphere; it is the that would not qualify, but it is not just whether the same when you watch Scotland and Wales at Scottish team would qualify but whether the British Murrayfield—something magical happens when team would qualify. What we are saying is now that you put a Scottish jersey or Scottish tracksuit on we have got automatic selection—this is a political your back. It is something to do with pride and decision, this is something that DCMS, the UK culture, national pride, or something. I do not know Government, can decide to change around by how what it is, but it is special. To compete in the much money it gives to performance sports. We Olympic Games I am happy to put a British could say that in those sports, because we have got tracksuit on to do that and do the best I can for automatic qualification, we do not want to be Britain. embarrassed, we do not want an Eddie the Eagle 3208392004 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 45

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams approach, but because we have got the opportunity Q188 Mr Walker: So young Scottish talent could be to enter these sports in the Olympics, we are going to denied a chance to win an Olympic medal at football enter them and we are going to put into place because the SFA is not taking part. performance directors, coaches, all the support that Ms Bracewell: Yes. they have never had, because what has happened in sport in the past when it has been under-resourced is Q189 Mr MacDougall: I am going to make the point if you are not a good sport you have not had money that the question is getting a bit beyond that, but you invested in you, so now we have this golden were talking about what motivates you better is the opportunity to take sports that otherwise have not British team rather than the Scottish team. You are been looked after up to another level, and that will a former athlete, you would know this. contribute to a huge legacy in doing that. Ms Bracewell: Yes.

Q180 Mr Davidson: I very much understand that Q190 Mr MacDougall: What I was going to say to point, but the point I am pursuing is slightly you was, is it not a question that if you want to pass diVerent— the first test to get into the British team you have to Ms Bracewell: Should I concentrate on just doing a be a superior athlete, and if you think about the fact Scottish basketball team? that if you are competing in the British team you are competing against far more and many athletes who are of greater capability, and you have to raise your Q181 Mr Davidson: That is right, and you seem to be standard immediately. saying to me that a Scottish basketball team would Ms Bracewell: Yes. not qualify. What I am interested in is because this issue has been raised quite seriously with us, about Q191 Mr MacDougall: Where as maybe in the having a separate Scottish team in everything, I am Commonwealth Games you want the same passion just trying to establish the extent to which Scots to win, but—is that not the case? would then not be represented at all if the team were Ms Bracewell: Yes, there are some sports like curling separate. Can you give us a list as it were? where, if you make the Scottish team, you are the Ms Bracewell: I cannot give you a list oV the top of best in the world, but there are an awful lot of sports my head but I am sure I could give you a list later. where you make the Scottish team and you are not quite good enough still for the British team. One of Q182 Chairman: Can you pass this information to the jobs that we have got is to raise the Scottish us after? expectations, it is not just enough to wear a Scottish Ms Bracewell: Absolutely.2 tracksuit, you want to wear a Scottish tracksuit, be the best in the world and go onto the Olympics. I Q183 Mr Walker: How many teams play in the think the motivation for an athlete is that you want football tournament? Is it 20? It is through to get to the Olympic Games because it is just the qualification, is it not? biggest stage and it is just an amazing event. We all Ms Bracewell: It is through qualification, yes. want to get there, we love doing all our Scottish bit for the Commonwealth and that is a huge goal in itself, but there is also something very special about Q184 Mr Walker: I wonder if Scotland would going to the Olympic Games. qualify for the football. Hockey—we always qualify for the hockey. Q192 Gordon Banks: Just a very quick point on this Ms Bracewell: British hockey we qualify at. issue, would it not be fair to assume that the UK training, sports managers, sport selling, sport Q185 Mr Walker: But I doubt Scotland on its own psychology is bound to be better than anything that would qualify for hockey. any one of the home countries could oVer on its own, Ms Bracewell: They are now ranked ninth or so therefore that is to lead to better performance eleventh in Europe so, no, they would not qualify from the athletes. through their own team. Ms Bracewell: This is really interesting because actually we have got a Scottish Institute of Sport which is perceived to be much better than what is on Q186 Mr McGovern: It cannot possibly be an exact oVer in England, and that is where we do our sports science, there must be a bit of the hypothetical or science, our sports medicine, lifestyle for sport and subjective. all kinds of other stuV. That gives all kinds of Ms Bracewell: Yes. strength and conditioning and other services to some of the athletes in the British Olympic squads, so top Q187 Mr Davidson: Because a team might out- Scottish athletes can tap into our institute. I actually perform during the qualification period so to speak. think that that we are pretty good at elite sport, but Ms Bracewell: Yes. I suppose it is always open to us, it is a case of would we be able to get the numbers of if we want to, to spend huge amounts of money to athletes coming through in Scotland to actually get try and turn this around, but that is not something the teams to then benefit and qualify. that Scotland could do. Q193 Gordon Banks: And allow us to keep that 2 See Ev 47 expertise up. 3208392004 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Ev 46 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams

Ms Bracewell: Yes. would be very unwise for LOCOG to do that because it is not just us that would be jumping up Q194 Mr Davidson: Can I ask you whether or not the and down. Once you take one event out and there same rules apply to the special Olympics in terms of are other parts of Britain that want to benefit from automatic access and so on, and if we had a separate the Games, how many other events then come up for Scottish team for the Olympics would that then grabs? It is either a legally binding agreement where oblige us to have a separate Scottish team for the Hampden is definitely in, or there is a much bigger special Olympics, and what would that mean in problem for LOCOG. Certainly all the noises that I terms of automatic access. have heard from LOCOG are that Hampden is in Ms Bracewell: The Paralympic Games are run by the there, we know what the dates are, we have those International Paralympic Commission and I opening matches and we have got the quarter-finals honestly do not know enough about the links match. We just have to be alive to that one. between the IPC and the IOC to know how that would work, but I would imagine that it would be a Q197 Gordon Banks: Do you think the SFA’s very similar issue. Certainly, when it comes to that, decision not to take part in a GB team will have a from a British point of view UK Sport funds both spin-oV eVect that is detrimental to attracting the Olympic programme and the Paralympic footballing nations or other sports? programme, and when we send our teams, apart Ms Bracewell: I think the question of a British from the logo changing on the tracksuit everything football team is really a question for the SFA, but I is the same, but at an international level I suspect think that wherever we come out here we have to then we would have to petition the IPC to see if we make sure that Scotland’s independence is could go as Scotland and then again another issue absolutely maintained in the World Cup. If the SFA around this is that it is not just the IOC and the IPC are not sure of that, you ask the question whether or that have to recognise Scotland, it is each of the not any British team should be entered. What would international governing bodies of sport who take be a diYcult situation, if history were to judge us part in the Games. FIFA already recognises later, is if a British team consisting of players from Scotland, but you would have to go round each of England and Northern Ireland who were happy that the sports like swimming, fencing and you would their independence was not being compromised, have to get the international bodies of all of those to took part in the Olympics and did not lose their recognise the Scottish swimming team, for example. independence, then it would look odd if Scottish I imagine that would be the same at the Paralympics. players did not participate. But Scotland and England and each of the home countries have got to Q195 Mr Davidson: The other element of this be convinced that they will maintain their approach was that it was suggested that if we could independence in the World Cup. In an ideal world, not really go as Scotland we might want to consider any Scot would have a chance—as we said earlier— going as Europe. That is not my suggestion, but it to walk on the track at the Olympic opening was made by somebody who is not here and I think ceremony, whatever their sport, but the SFA has to it is, however, worth clarifying what your reaction is maintain its independence. to the idea that there would not be a British team, and if we could not get a Scottish team we would Q198 Gordon Banks: You do not think that decision participate in a European team. What is your is going to be detrimental to the attraction of response to that crackpot idea? I do not want to put Scotland hosting anything, training camps or words in your mouth. anything? Ms Bracewell: I think that would be the hardest team Ms Bracewell: Football in the Olympics is only an in the world to qualify for, point one. If you take the under-23 event. It is not the biggest Olympic event so best of Europe, of the top 10 nations in the Olympic I do not think it would be a problem from the Games five of them are European so you are making perception of the Olympics at all. life pretty diYcult. I am sure there would be a number of athletes who, if it was the only way to get Q199 Mr Davidson: Is there any spill over at all from to the Olympic Games, would try to get there, but it the SFA’s decision to the Commonwealth Games is so hard I do think it is a non-starter. We would all bid? rather walk in there with a British tracksuit rather Ms Bracewell: I would not have thought so because than struggle to qualify for a European team. football is not in the Commonwealth Games and Hampden, of course, is going to be the athletics Q196 Mr McGovern: Is it your understanding that, venue of the Commonwealth Games and the SFA is just as the legally binding agreement between the completely behind that, so I do not see how that IOC, the BOA and LOCOG means that no more would aVect that. venues could be located in Scotland, would the same agreement mean that despite media speculation to Q200 Gordon Banks: Last week the Chancellor and the contrary, you would not be allowed to take any the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport events away from Hampden Park without IOC announced the Government’s support for any bid by approval? England to host the finals of the 2018 FIFA World Ms Bracewell: If it genuinely is a legally binding Cup. Do you think the Scottish FA’s decision had contract then they cannot take it away from any bearing on the Government getting so publicly Hampden without IOC approval, and I think it behind an English bid rather than waiting to see if 3208392004 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 47

22 November 2005 Ms Julia Bracewell and Mr David Williams

Scotland, perhaps jointly with Ireland, could also assume that England would want. There may be put in a multi-home nations bid in hosting the World some deal that can be done to ensure that games are Cup? In a Five Live phone-in last week David played in Scotland. Davies said—and he is an ex-chairman of the FA— Mr Davidson: Surely not! he thought that there was every likelihood, if the England bid was successful, that there could be Q202 Chairman: May I thank you for your games played in Ireland, the Millennium Stadium attendance this afternoon. Your evidence was and Hampden. I would like your views on that. exceptionally good and I am sure it will be very useful to us when we compile our report. Our Clerk Ms Bracewell: I would not like to speculate what was saying to me that Julia would make an extremely DCMS’s reasons were because I just do not know good politician and I told him that as long as she that. If there is a way of hosting a major event and does not stand against me in my constituency it some of those games come up to Scotland, I think would not be a problem! Before I declare the meeting that would be a good thing, but then I would say that closed, would you like to add anything in because I love sport. I think it is still quite early days conclusion? in that whole bid to see how that would turn out. Ms Bracewell: I would just like to thank everybody for giving us the opportunity to come and speak. If we can all unite behind it then it could be something Q201 Gordon Banks: Do you think those words really special for Scotland. from an ex-FA chairman are encouraging? Mr Williams: I would concur with that and say that Ms Bracewell: Very encouraging. David probably I think it will be the greatest experience for British knows more about this than me. sport. I think we will see unprecedented investment Mr Williams: Hopefully if we did get World Cup and interest in sport and hopefully that will go into football here it would be played around the UK. We more activity with schools. It is a once in a lifetime have got some great national stadiums. The other opportunity for the British public to see sport but issue is on the voting side. Wales, England, Scotland also for the development of sport in this country. and Ireland would all have votes, which you would Chairman: Thank you.

Memorandum submitted to the Committee by Julia Bracewell, Chairman, sportscotland

Issues and Observation

1. Many Scottish Governing Bodies of Sport (SGBs), in the Olympic sports, are not directly aYliated to the International Body recognised by International Olympic Committee (IOC). (a) SGBs would need to aYliate.

2. Many SGBs in the Olympic sports do not have the professional infrastructure or income to operate at a full international World and Olympic level. (a) Significantly increased investment into the staYng infrastructure of SGBs would be required. (b) Significantly increased investment into training and competition programmes and individual athlete funding would be required.

3. All of our team sports would currently not qualify to compete at the Olympics, most do not even as part of a Team GB.

4. Many Scots qualify for Team GB as part of small team events within a sport, rowing, cycling, athletics, swimming, sailing etc. As there is not the strength in depth within Scotland many of these athletes would not qualify to compete. (a) Many Scots may decide to switch allegiance to another home country where they could compete for a Team GB (without Scotland) to ensure representation. (b) Most of our potential medal success falls into this category.

5. At a 2012 “home” games in London, due to the automatic qualification status for some sports and events more Scots would qualify and compete in a Team GB than a Scottish Team.

6. In other Olympics it is likely that by lowering the British Olympic Association (BOA) qualification standards to the lower minimum standard of the sports International bodies and IOC that we MAY be able to qualify more Scots in to the Olympic games but their medal chances would be extremely low. 3208392005 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:39:25 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG2

Ev 48 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

Scottish Olympic Team

OLYMPIC SPORTS TABLE

Sport AYliation—GB or Infrastructure and Reality of Full Scottish International investment in place? Team Qualifying Archery GB No Individuals Athletics GB Yes Individuals Badminton Int Yes Individuals Baseball Int No No Basketball GB No No Boxing Int Nearly Individuals Canoeing GB Yes Individuals Cycling GB Yes Individuals Equestrian GB No Individuals Fencing GB No Individuals Football Int No No Gymnastics GB No Individuals Handball GB No No Hockey Int Yes Judo GB Yes Individuals Modern Pentathlon GB No Individuals Rowing GB No Individuals Sailing GB Yes Individuals Shooting Int Yes Individuals Softball GB No No Swimming GB Yes Individuals Table Tennis GB No Individuals Tae Kwon Do GB No Individuals Tennis GB Nearly Individuals Triathlon GB Yes Individuals Volleyball GB No No Weightlifting Int No Individuals Wrestling GB No Individuals

14 December 2005 3208392006 Page Type [SO] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 49

Tuesday 29 November 2005

Members present:

Mr Mohammad Sarwar, in the Chair

Danny Alexander Mr Jim McGovern Mr Ian Davidson Mr Angus MacNeil Mr John MacDougall David Mundell

Memorandum submitted to the Scottish AVairs Committee by Scottish Enterprise

Introduction 1. Scottish Enterprise (SE) applauds the immense eVort resulting in the success of the bid for the 2012 Olympics (the Games) and welcomes this opportunity to give evidence to the Scottish AVairs Committee on The Potential Benefits for Scotland. In keeping with the role of SE, this evidence concentrates primarily on the economic benefits of the Games to Scotland. 2. An essential element of the bid success was a recognition of the Government’s promise that benefits would accrue to the whole of the UK and not simply be concentrated in the South East of England. To that end, a Nations and Regions Group was formed with Nations and Regions Steering Groups in each Country/ Region across the whole of the UK. SE supported the Bid Team pre 6 July as part of the Scottish Steering Group and hopes to continue doing so as part of the reformed group under the Chairmanship of Julia Bracewell, chair of sportscotland.

The Economic Benefits to Scotland from the 2012 Olympic Games 3. The Olympic Games is the largest event in the world. The impact of the 2000 Sydney Games was measured by PriceWaterhouseCoopers (PWC). Their key findings concluded benefits of: £2.5 billion spend in infrastructure £1.3 billion in business outcomes including — £252 million in new business investment — £121 million in new business under the Australian Technology Showcase Almost £850 million in post-Games sports infrastructure and services $6.1 billion worth of international exposure Over £2.6 billion in inbound tourism spending during 2001 Sydney’s International Tourist visits rose by 78% An additional 1.6 million visitors due to the Games in 2000 Currently the London Committee for the Olympic Games (LOCOG) estimates an operating budget of £1.5 billion (at 2004 prices) and the ODA Olympic specific works budget of £2.375 billion at out-turn prices. With spending in the same ball-park as Sydney it is reasonable to assume a comparable spend overall in the UK. It is also reasonable to assume that a significant proportion of this spend will be made in Scotland. However, a high proportion will only be realised with proactive intervention. 4. In addition to this spend the greater economic impact will include the wider eVects of the Games on the economy including associated factors such as increased tourism, increased skilled workforce, new and developed businesses and improved infrastructure. 5. The Scottish Steering Group will concentrate their eVorts on seven key themes including Sporting Success, Cultural Events, Volunteers, Business and Investment, Tourism, Venues and Training Camps. The memorandum provided to the Scottish AVairs Committee by the Scottish Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport1 outlined broadly ways in which these themes would benefit Scotland.

1 See Ev 76 3208392006 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 50 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

6. SE will have a complementary and key role to play in conjunction with the Scottish Executive, Private Sector and other public sector bodies in proactively maximising these opportunities. SE will concentrate its eVorts in the three areas of Business and Investment, Tourism and Training Camps. Concentrated eVort in each of these three areas, resulting in business opportunities and wider developments, will ultimately translate into added value and growth in the economy. 7. The eVect of the Games will be phased and can be split into three time-frames, each with associated opportunities.

Pre-Games From the announcement of the success of the bid right up until the Games themselves opportunities will arise in profiling Scotland as a world-class tourism destination and as a place to do business. Opportunities will include securing contracts for Scottish businesses and attracting leisure and business tourists through associated events and conferences.

Games Period The impact of the games themselves, in terms of the period immediately before and after through Training Camps and tourists travelling pre and post Games, will oVer opportunities for those specifically geared up to attract them.

Post Games The post games period, often lasting decades after the main event, regarded as the “Legacy” not only refers to the improved infrastructure, but will also be reflected in tourism numbers and in business development. The greatest significance of ongoing intervention at each stage of the Pre-Games and Games period will be to strengthen the Legacy of a growth in business performance in the economy.

The Role of Scottish Enterprise 8. As Scotland’s main economic development agency SE will work closely with the Scottish Executive, COSLA, eventscotland, sportscotland and other partners to ensure that the people and businesses in Scotland achieve maximum benefit from one of the world’s most prestigious events. 9. Working with partners, SE will undertake a number of initiatives targeted at the three priority areas.

Business Opportunities 10. Growing Business is one of SE’s main objectives. A focus of the Olympics will enable SE to work closely with key industry bodies to assist in growing businesses of scale, encourage greater entrepreneurial dynamism and creativity and enable less mature or smaller companies to compete for potentially valuable contracts. By working with the London Organising Committee for the Olympic Games (LOCOG) and the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA), SE will identify the procurement time-line. Through a series of conferences, seminars and workshops and using established networks SE will help identify supply chain opportunities then work closely with groups and successful businesses to capitalise upon them. Outcomes of this will include: — Mass awareness raising of opportunities on procurement through marketing and training schemes, particularly help small-medium size companies become tendering/procurement ready. — Communication with specific industry bodies of sector opportunities eg all of the legal services associated with the Sydney Games were serviced by companies based in Victoria. — Assisting successful bid companies with high growth potential to develop products (IBM created 32 new patents through their contract with the Sydney Olympics). — Scottish Development International (SDI) working closely with the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) to identify those companies overseas that win large contracts and assisting them in finding sub-contractors in Scotland. — Attracting these successful overseas bid companies to relocate to Scotland permanently. — Participation with key Scottish companies in associated business events such as the highly successful Technology Showcase staged during the 2000 Games in Sydney. 3208392006 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 51

Training Camps 11. Another of SE’s objectives is that of Global Connections. Potentially attracting Nations’ teams to train in Scotland will in turn raise awareness of Scotland as an attractive location to live, work and visit. SE will assist where appropriate and in partnership with the Scottish Steering Group, Nations and Regions Group and LOCOG to attract target Nations to Scotland through its Global Scots network and other global networks.

Tourism 12. Tourism is one of SE’s priority industries. The opportunities aVorded this industry through the Olympics and associated events in the run-up and post Olympics period will allow significant opportunities for sector development. Examples of how SE will work with the industry and other partners will include, — Supporting eventscotland, sportscotland and others in attracting international events in the run up to the Games incorporating target countries and organising associated business events. (SE sponsors the British open which in 2009 is to be held at Turnberry, coinciding with the Burns Homecoming event.) — Identifying key conferences in target industries attracted by the Olympics. Working with the Scottish Convention Bureau and City Bureaux to attract these conferences and develop intervention activities to target individuals/companies. — Raising awareness events with tourism businesses. — Providing support for appropriate product development and service delivery initiatives.

Targeting skills 13. SE delivers national skills programmes to make sure Scottish people are equipped with the right kind of skills that businesses need to help them grow, boost productivity and increase employment. With a focus on the Olympics, SE will work with sectors and industries like construction to play our part in delivering against a range of needs, from industry specific career guidance resources to highly specialised technical training. Examples of initiatives might include: — Identification of future skills opportunities. For example, SE has already approved a £35 million Construction Skills Action Plan in response to the increase in demand for construction skills arising from a predicted boom in the sector over the next 10 years. While the forecast 33,500 additional jobs created by the Olympics, account for only 3% of total build value over the period, related skill demands as they emerge will be monitored closely by SE and responded to as particular training needs arise. — Having forecasted opportunities SE will in any event target national training programmes on key sectors such as Tourism and Construction to increase productivity and meet the demands of estimated growth in these sectors, maintaining key industry’s momentum in Scotland and prepare Scottish people to embrace employment and career development opportunities, as appropriate.

Issues

Communication and Planning 14. Maximising opportunities aVorded by the Games will depend greatly on forward planning and communications. In order to identify procurement, training, promotional and showcasing opportunities SE and its partners must have eVective communication links both within Scotland with sector bodies (eg the Construction Industry Training Board in Scotland) and with LOCOG and the ODA.

Synergies with Glasgow bid for the Commonwealth Games 2014 15. The timescale for completion of the Commonwealth Games facilities is 2010. Combined with other facilities being built across Scotland as part of the Scottish Executive and sportscotland National and Regional Sports Facilities Strategy amounting to some £230 million, this will mean that Scotland will be well placed to host major Games Training camps. 16. SE will work closely with Glasgow City Council the Scottish Executive and others to explore business opportunities, skills development opportunities and exploit all possible synergies between both these major sporting events. 3208392007 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 52 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

Cross fertilisation of ideas 17. One of the great strengths in securing the Olympics will be the opportunity to work on cross- fertilisation of ideas across public and private sector bodies. Having a National Steering Group with representation across social, educational, sporting, economic and environmental agencies will foster a wide range of collaborative projects which SE will welcome the opportunity to become involved in eg a national schools’ sports business game.

Partnership 18. The 2012 London Olympics will bring a wealth of opportunity to the whole of the UK. SE looks forward to being part of the challenge to ensure that these opportunities are exploited to their fullest for Scotland its people and its businesses. Jane Cook Senior Manager Operations West Bill Morton Senior Director Operations West 23 November 2005

Witnesses: Ms Linda McDowall, Senior Director, Strategic Relationships, Mr Bill Morton, Senior Director, Network Operations and Ms Jane Cook, Senior Manager, Network Operations, Scottish Enterprise, examined.

Q203 Chairman: I should like to welcome you to this Would you agree with that assessment, and are there meeting of the Scottish AVairs Committee in any other ways Scottish business could benefit from connection with our inquiry into the potential the Games? benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics. Please Mr Morton: These are certainly examples of where would you introduce yourselves for the record? we think there will be business opportunities. We are Mr Morton: Thank you Chairman. I am Bill very happy to work with partner organisations, but Morton, Senior Director, Network Operations in particularly through the organising committees, Scottish Enterprise. I am joined today by my both at the nation and region level; that should colleagues Linda McDowall, who is a fellow Senior identify both our time line and also our range of Director looking after our strategic relationships, procurement opportunities. At this stage, we are and also by Jane Cook, Senior Manager, who is very open-minded. We would try to tailor our acting as our Project Manager for the Olympics. support, for example, in terms of awareness-raising of a whole variety of contracts that Scottish businesses might be able to access through Q204 Chairman: Would you like to make any tendering, or we might be able to encourage opening remarks before we start the detailed businesses to develop to address a particular questioning? market demand. Mr Morton: Not specifically; we are quite happy to address any questions that arise from the note that we have submitted for your consideration, but also Q206 Chairman: Would you rank the importance of may we say that we welcome the opportunity of the individual benefits in the same order as the being here today. We realise that it is quite early on Executive have listed them? in the process in terms of preparing for the Olympic Mr Morton: Yes, I think we should. In Scottish Games, so if there are any issues that you feel in the Enterprise our lead role is clearly in economic fullness of time you would like to address in greater development, which is why we are specifically detail, we should be more than happy to return to the interested in the business investment opportunities, Committee at that time. in tourism and also in trying to attract the spending power of one of the teams to Scotland. Q205 Chairman: In its memorandum to the Committee, the Scottish Executive sets out a number of ways that Scottish businesses can benefit from the Q207 Chairman: What do you think is the single 2012 Games. These are, for example: opportunities most important way that Scotland could benefit? in construction for the Games facilities and village; Mr Morton: I think that will vary over time. At this provision of services at Games venues such as stage in the build-up to the Games, we are very much catering, security, cleaning and maintenance; the in the pre-event stage. The most important thing that supply of equipment such as seating, temporary we should be able to exploit to the benefit of buildings and lighting; clothing such as Games Scotland would be this list of procurement uniforms and merchandise; the supply of food to opportunities, to know where the contracts are, Games catering contractors and concession holders. when they are likely to take place and their nature. 3208392007 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 53

29 November 2005 Ms Linda McDowall, Mr Bill Morton and Ms Jane Cook

Q208 Mr McGovern: Two Scottish companies were those opportunities, but also where there may be successful in winning the contracts to produce the opportunities for new business creation around bid document and to supply flags and banners. Some those procurements. very significant contracts still remain to be awarded, for example to build the actual arenas for the Q211 Mr MacDougall: You will have seen from the Olympics and the facilities at training camps et statistics which have been provided from the cetera. How will Scottish Enterprise support Olympic experience in Sydney the scale of Scottish firms to enable them to win such contracts? investment there. Is the scale of investment likely to Mr Morton: The first thing we would do is to be similar in Britain? Did you see anything specific encourage, through various events and profile- about Sydney that would make the outturn slightly raising a fuller awareness of what the opportunities diVerent to the UK as a whole? actually are. Behind that, we can actually tailor Mr Morton: From all we can deduce at this time, and specific support in our generic business development it is early days, it looks as though there are quite activity. For example, if one of the businesses distinct parallels with the level of investment, both in perhaps were to get involved in the construction running the Games and setting up the infrastructure side, were to win contracts and they required and events for the Games. If anything, there is the support with ensuring they had the right skills possibility, with the passage of time, that the available within the workforce, that is something opportunity is bigger with each successive Games, so that Scottish Enterprise could address very directly. we should certainly be encouraged to believe that there is a very significant opportunity here for Q209 Mr MacNeil: Have any Scottish businesses Scotland to play its part and to fulfil the promise that come to you yet to ask for any specific help? has been given by the Government that these are Secondly, had the Games gone to Paris, would you United Kingdom Games, they are not South East still be oVering the same help to Scottish businesses England Games. to compete for the Olympic contracts? Mr Morton: It is possibly a little early for companies Q212 Mr Davidson: There are obviously going to be to come to us. We should like to take the initiative a whole lot of other opportunities in procurement of and make sure that we go to them and use every construction. Do you have an estimate of or a target device at our disposal to ensure that they are aware. for how much would come to Scotland? We do have some contact with the companies that Mr Morton: It is impossible to say at this stage. The your colleague identified earlier as having won some procurement, for example, has not been defined as of the business in the early stages. Had the Olympic yet and we do not expect that really to start to pick Games gone to Paris, I think we should still have up any momentum until possibly into the spring of pursued the opportunities to support business next year. We shall certainly be very close to the development in Scotland, but because of the Organising Committee and its regional— proximity to the Games, actually being within the United Kingdom, the opportunity to do so is more readily achieved and also the benefit to Scotland Q213 Mr Davidson: When do you think you will be greater. in a position to have an estimate or a target? Mr Morton: As soon as the information starts to filter through in terms of what the requirements are Q210 Mr MacDougall: Looking at the Olympics in to both stage and set up all the various— terms of the possible development prospects for businesses, do you regard investing in current businesses as more important than trying to create Q214 Mr Davidson: Surely if you know roughly the new businesses, or do you think there will be some scale of what they are likely to want and you know kind of mix? Have you given any thought to that? what happened previously in other Games, you must Mr Morton: I should imagine it would be both. already have some sort of notional idea of how Scottish Enterprise, with our approach to helping much, in terms of procurement or construction, growing businesses, is keen to see a greater number Scotland ought to be targeting? Presumably, we are of businesses of scale in Scotland. So if the Olympic not going to get everything and presumably we are Games can be used as a catalyst for accelerating the not going to get nothing. In between, I am not quite growth of business which exists in Scotland, we sure where you are aiming. Is it 10%, 20%, 5%? What should be very keen to do that. We should be very sort of ball-park figure are you considering? keen to look at opportunities which relate to specific Mr Morton: Quite honestly, we could not quantify sectors like tourism or maybe the provision of that at this stage. It would be wrong of me to say that services from within Scotland which meet the I could take a wet-finger guess and suggest that a specific demands of the organisers of the Games. We proportion of what I believe might happen could are also very keen to support the development of come to Scotland. I should answer that question enterprise, so if businesses could be created and along the lines that we should use every device at our could be accelerated in their development to the disposal to make sure that the largest volume of economic benefit of Scotland, we should be very business could be won for Scotland as it becomes keen to be associated there as well. available through the procurement lists. Ms McDowall: Once we know what the procurement opportunities are, then that in itself Q215 Chairman: At what stage do you think you will will help us focus on the businesses which can go for be able to set the targets in future? 3208392007 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 54 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

29 November 2005 Ms Linda McDowall, Mr Bill Morton and Ms Jane Cook

Ms McDowall: I think the Nations and Regions Q218 Mr MacNeil: Do you see anything concrete Group are due to meet in January. We hope to be being built in Scotland as a result of the Games at privy to what the procurement opportunities are all? around March of next year and then through Mr Morton: I understand you have heard from proactive intervention to try to maximise the most of COSLA and are due to hear from the Minister, that for the benefit of Scottish companies. Patricia Ferguson, about the investment which is Mr Morton: It would certainly be one of the issues taking place, some £230 million of investment in that we should be very happy to come back to venues and various other sports facilities, which will discuss with the Committee. I understand your help to encourage the development of high quality colleague’s desire to see a specific target and I sport within Scotland and actually set a good personally, and I think our organisation, would foundation hopefully for what will be the Glasgow support the setting of that target because it would Commonwealth Games in 2014. Again, a good help to mobilise and to motivate within Scotland. reason why we should want to make sure that we However, it is very diYcult to speculate on what that take advantage of the learning opportunity for target might be at this point. Scotland from being involved in the London Olympics, so that we are well placed to apply those outcomes to the Commonwealth Games. Q216 Mr McGovern: I think there is a general acceptance that by and large contracts will be based in England. Do you feel that you would be able to Q219 Mr Davidson: May I ask about construction oVer more support if the contracts were based in and can you just clarify how realistic you think it is Scotland, in Strathspey for example, rather than for us to anticipate any success by Scottish firms in Stratford? winning construction contracts for the Olympics? Mr Morton: There are two elements to that. One is Mr Morton: I think there is scope for that. There is the opportunity for companies in Scotland to be technical excellence in the construction industry in supported in developing in Scotland to win business Scotland which would give at least a prospect of a from the Games. There is the possibility that competitive positioning. When you speak to some of companies from elsewhere, in Europe for example, the construction companies, there is a concern in the might win contracts and what we then have is an general aspects of that business that the London opportunity to engage Scottish companies, say on a Olympics, in creating 33,500 jobs, might actually sub-contract basis; in other words, you have a local suck quite a lot of skilled people out of Scotland. If presence within the United Kingdom. If that were an you look at it in the round, the £2.375 billion for the opportunity that we could capture for Scotland, we Olympics is about 3% of the UK value of the should be very keen to pursue it. We should be keen industry overall, so it will have an impact. What we to pursue beyond that. If there were such should do in Scotland is maybe two-fold. We have a international companies which traded in the United £35 million construction skills initiative already, Kingdom on the back of the Games and they could which is recognising a tremendous growth in be persuaded that ultimately Scotland was a good demand in the industry within Scotland, so we are place to do business, we should be keen to encourage supporting that, we are active there. We are keen and them to do so as well. in fact at the moment we are considering the Ms Cook: We should be using the SDI, Scottish establishment of a Construction Innovation Development International, to assist in that and, Technology Centre to try to increase the quality of maybe just to explain, the contracts will not the businesses, but if there were a leaching of skills necessarily all be south of the border and you just out of Scotland, I think we would then be in a quoted a couple of companies which had already position to gear up to make sure that we can train secured contracts. If you call on Queensland’s people to fill any potential vacuum and also we would benefit from the skills of these people in the experience of the Sydney Games, they had over construction industry. Aus$400 million worth of contracts in the Queensland area. So we should be looking to chase these contracts; we shall chase them overseas as well, Q220 Mr Davidson: There are skills shortages in looking to sub-contract back. construction in Scotland now. Mr Morton: There are. Q217 Mr MacNeil: In short, you are saying that it is diYcult at this stage to spell out or to flush out the Q221 Mr Davidson: What guarantee can we have potential benefits of the Games? that with greater demand further down the road we Mr Morton: It is diYcult to quantify. We can qualify shall actually be able to win contracts in London because we know where the seams of opportunity when, in my view, it is much more likely that it would might lie which are best suited to Scottish be built by Eastern European labour than by Enterprise’s lead role in economic development. I Scottish labour? Is construction not one of these understand that it would be good to be able to say areas that we could just write oV and accept that we can get X or Y percentage of this added value. All there are not going to be gains there and we should I can say to you at this point, until we can quantify focus on areas where we can genuinely make a that, is that it is our aspiration to go for the diVerence, as distinct from just trying to say that we maximum possible. shall get involved in everything? 3208392007 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 55

29 November 2005 Ms Linda McDowall, Mr Bill Morton and Ms Jane Cook

Mr Morton: I certainly would not say that at this the industry to look at where the peaks and troughs point; it is far too early. We should not write oV any are going to be and to try to level some of these out sector where we think there is an opportunity that and provide the skills necessary to meet the peaks. businesses in Scotland could be competitive for tendering opportunities. I should be optimistic Q225 Danny Alexander: Moving on from this about that. You are right to say that there is a skills subject, in your submission you make quite a lot of issue in construction trying to meet the demands play of the Australian example as giving a sense of already placed, which is why Scottish Enterprise is the extent of the potential benefits which might be making this £35 million investment to try to bring available, but obviously a lot of the evidence in the forward within the labour market the sorts of skills Australian example would be benefits which would that the companies will require to remain have accrued to the Sydney area, so the parallel in competitive. this case would be benefits accruing to the London area. Do you have any more information about how Q222 David Mundell: Has any form of modelling more peripheral regions of Australia, such as been done relative to the skills sets which are Western Australia or Queensland for example, required? The Scottish Executive have a very large might have benefited, rather than looking at advanced programme of civil engineering works Australia as a whole? That information gives a such as the construction of the M74 northern measure of how beneficial the Olympics might be as extension, construction of a railway between a whole, but not really what the extent of the Edinburgh and Galashiels, but whilst you are opportunity for Scotland might be. touting to do work for the London Olympics, that Ms Cook: The comparable one that we have is would be compatible with all this work that is due to Queensland. We are very fortunate in Scotland in go on in Scotland almost within the same timeframe. that the chief executive of EventScotland was It does seem to me rather odd that we shall be actually working in Queensland on the Olympics at looking to do construction contracts outwith the time of the Olympics. He has brought all that Scotland when we might not have suYcient skill experience with him. The evidence we have is within Scotland actually to deliver these major primarily from Queensland. infrastructure projects which have been committed Mr Morton: That is a good point. It is diYcult to to. know at this stage how best to position Scotland so Mr Morton: You are quite right that there is a that we do maximise the opportunity. We can tremendous demand upon the industry. You have certainly, as we shall be doing, undertake further mentioned some of the large-scale infrastructure benchmarking research to see what happened in investment in Scotland. You could add to that, the Australia, what worked, what devices they used to Clyde Waterfront or the Clyde Gateway or try to encourage economic development to disperse ultimately the redevelopment of Ravenscraig. There to diVerent areas. I know, for example, that the legal are plenty of instances where the construction services for the Olympic Games were sub-contracted industry is going to be engaged. Again, in out of the immediate area of Sydney. We do not recognising that, that is why we have the £35 million anticipate that all of the critical massing of the investment, but the way the market will dictate the benefit will be in one place, in this instance London companies that are competitive, we should like to and the South East. We should be very keen to think Scottish companies will be in there tendering identify the opportunities, to make sure that they are and they might well be successful in winning as dispersed and as much to Scotland’s benefit as we business. If that were the case, we would have to can make them. factor that in as another strand of the support we Ms Cook: Also with Melbourne and in the would need to give to skills development in that Queensland area one of the things they found, in the particularly important industry in Scotland. What I build-up period to the Games and afterwards, was a am saying is that, if companies in Scotland do get huge increase in the conference industry. We are involved, there is value back to Scotland both in very fortunate in Scotland that we have excellent their winning the contracts and also in the skills that convention bureaux which are already very the workforce engaged in the Olympic construction successful. I should imagine, and this is based on would bring back to the country ultimately. evidence that we have obtained, that by targeting conferences in the lead-up to the Olympics there are Q223 David Mundell: There is a capacity issue, is certain conferences that might follow the Olympics there not? and we shall certainly be using all of resources to bid Mr Morton: Yes. for these.

Q224 David Mundell: Is anybody looking at that Q226 Danny Alexander: I noticed that the specific capacity? Australian Government in the run-up to the Ms Cook: Yes, Scottish Enterprise is working really Olympics were promoting a number of initiatives closely with the Scottish Construction Industry like “Australia Open for Business” for example, Training Board and they have an arm called which was about attracting international business Construction Skills. They are setting up what they into Australia, using the Olympics as a lever to call observatories around the country and the idea is attract international business into Australia. I know exactly that, to monitor what is happening and to that is not something you really address in your forecast ahead. So we are working very closely with submission about using the Olympics to improve 3208392007 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 56 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

29 November 2005 Ms Linda McDowall, Mr Bill Morton and Ms Jane Cook

Scotland’s international business links, but is that to generate for tourism in Scotland on the back of something that is in your thinking as well? Maybe the Olympics, and that is something we could return you could spell that out a bit more? to with you. Mr Morton: Absolutely, this is a world event; the profiling opportunities which are associated with it Q228 Mr MacNeil: I am sure you have been for the United Kingdom and Scotland. We should speaking to LOCOG, the London Committee for certainly work with the Organising Committee and the Olympic Games. I just wondered, after speaking again with the various forms of the Nations and to them, whether you are confident that the benefits Regions Committee and organisations like for Scotland will be greater than, say, benefits for VisitScotland, EventScotland, and COSLA and the nations which are closer to London; I am thinking of local authorities to find out how best Scotland can France or Belgium or the Netherlands. exploit the branding advantage of association with Mr Morton: I certainly hope so. We are within the the Olympics. For example, in our paper we United Kingdom. We should be geared up to make mentioned that Scottish Enterprise in 2009 will be sure that the Scottish business case related to the sponsoring the British Open as it comes to Olympics is there for all to see and hopefully to take Turnberry to coincide with the Burns Homecoming advantage of. event, which is a very significant cultural and tourism event which raises the profile of the country. It is distinctly possible by 2009 that we could also Q229 Mr MacNeil: Are you aware of any other start to piggy-back the Olympic awareness-raising countries hovering, say the Dutch or the Belgians or and the opportunities which might exist in Scotland anybody like that? and for Scotland to be profiled in association with Mr Morton: Not specifically. Being Scots we are not that. So we are starting to think about how we can afraid of competition, we merely surpass it. mobilise around the marketing opportunities by using the Olympic profile, but we should have to do Q230 Mr MacNeil: Absolutely; international that in concert with the organising bodies and our competition is what we need. fellow travellers within Scotland. Mr Morton: Absolutely. Ms Cook: One of the things that will help us is that we have already begun discussions with the London Q227 Danny Alexander: Just picking up on this issue Development Agency which has been assisting us of visitors. You talk in your submission about 1.6 before the ODA, the Olympic Delivery Authority, is million extra visitors to Sydney due to the Games, set up. We are going to set up the business club but, again, there is a question about how those throughout the UK so the ODA, which will be people are then dispersed throughout the country. responsible for procurement, will have a network of We might have a lot of extra visitors to London, but businesses within the business club and we shall be there are two questions related to that. Do you have making life as easy as possible for the ODA to ensure any estimate of what proportion of those visitors they have access to all the companies that are you would then expect to come to Scotland? How required to deliver. closely are you working with VisitScotland and VisitBritain to ensure that when people do come to Q231 Mr MacDougall: In paragraph 10 of your London for the Olympics, they are then exposed to memorandum you refer to the Olympic Delivery information and so on which might then lead them Authority, which will be accountable for all public to choose to go on to visit Scotland as part of their money raised by the sale of lottery tickets spent on trip? getting venues and infrastructure ready. Is it your Mr Morton: To a certain extent the answer to the understanding that this money will be additional to first part of the question is in the second part of what any money which would be spent by the UK you have just asked. It is working with VisitScotland Government or by the Scottish Executive? Do you and VisitBritain to make sure that Scotland is see it as additional money? profiled and that people are aware of the Mr Morton: It is diYcult to answer that specifically opportunities in tourism if they are coming; if the until we know how they intend to invest the money. V magnet e ect of the Games brings people to the I should imagine that it would come from a variety United Kingdom, then it is worth their while and we of sources, but whether or not there is a realignment can exploit their visit to Scotland as well. of existing spend within the United Kingdom Ms Cook: Our role primarily would be with the priorities is diYcult at this stage to say. Within actual companies. Our tourism team will be working Scotland we should try to recognise the priority to with the tourism industry to make sure that when encourage growth within the Scottish economy that they do get to Scotland, they have a real quality the Olympic Games represents. Quite a lot of our experience. We shall be looking at things like own funding would be geared to the recognition of packaging and how they are getting the message that priority. We should have to make a business over, but we shall work very closely with case within Scottish Enterprise in any event, to make VisitScotland on that. sure that that was the line followed, but if there were Mr Morton: To answer your first question about the a case for additional funding in Scotland, that target, at this point we do not have a specific target, business case would be the basis of an argument that but we shall be working with VisitScotland to see we would then take constructively, hopefully, what level of the market they would expect to be able initially to the Scottish Executive. 3208392007 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 57

29 November 2005 Ms Linda McDowall, Mr Bill Morton and Ms Jane Cook

Q232 David Mundell: I just want to come back to a Q235 David Mundell: Another point which you also point which was partly raised by Angus. Many of touched on was in relation to the Commonwealth your summations are based upon the Australian Games. The Scottish Executive’s own position experience but Australia is quite a diVerent would appear to be that one of the main benefits to destination to London and it is quite easy for people Scotland of the London Olympics is reinforcing the to come in and out of London for a week, a weekend. Glasgow Commonwealth Games bid. Is that also You could not contemplate going to Australia for a your view? weekend; you would be more inclined to go there for Mr Morton: I think there is an obvious synergy a month or six weeks or whatever. Do you not think between the two and I can understand why the that some of the inferences that have been drawn Scottish Executive wants to see that link made. might be inaccurate because people could simply There are some very tangible potential benefits. For come here, particularly from Europe, even from the example, if you wanted to run the Commonwealth United States, for relatively short periods, go only to Games, the learning opportunity of participating in the Games and then leave the United Kingdom? the Olympic Games in London would be a great Mr Morton: This bears also on the earlier question asset to you; they are only two years apart. So I can from your colleague about how relevant the understand that and, from our point of view, we Australian experience is. Bearing in mind that it is should support the Scottish Executive’s stance on not the most recent experience upon which to draw, trying to recognise the complementarity and looking at the practical synergies so that by the time the it does not mean to say that we shall follow blindly Commonwealth Games come around, we are not to everything that happened there. I think you are quite the same extent having to reinvent the wheel, we are right that the nature of the visitor market might be not at a standing start, we are actually building on quite diVerent and we should need to gear up the body of knowledge which one represents to the accordingly. You could argue that we should have benefit of the other. the benefit of both. You might have people who would come for a long duration because they wanted to participate in the entire Games, first of all as a Q236 Danny Alexander: I just want to make an spectator, which means that we have that particular observation and ask a question. In response to quite area to try to address with our tourism product, but, a few of the questions that we have put, questions because it is the United Kingdom, it also opens up about tourism and questions about construction and the short stay visit market which relates to specific so on, there has been quite a substantial degree of cities. So we might actually be slightly better oV in uncertainty in your answers, both in terms of terms of the span of the market that we are trying to estimates of the potential benefits, but also in terms address than the instance you gave us, the precedent of targets and what the process is for setting of from Australia. targets. I can understand, given that we are only a few weeks, months on from the decision being taken, why there would be some uncertainty about the Q233 David Mundell: Is no evidence yet available targets and so on, but it does strike me that we do from Athens as to what happened there? need a bit more clarity on what the process is by Mr Morton: No evaluation has been done which which those targets are going to be set. If we are not indicates the pattern of what happened in terms of clear from Scotland’s point of view as a whole, and I appreciate that Scottish Enterprise does not the legacy eVect. represent the whole of Scotland, there is Highlands Ms Cook: Some work has been done, but the reason and Islands Enterprise as well, unless there is a clear we keep going back to Sydney is that it is the most process for setting those targets, and all these comparable; you can go even further back than relevant agencies are working together to set those Sydney. What is happening is that every time you targets and then deliver them, then we could spend a have an Olympics, the knowledge is growing and lot of time talking about the potential benefits, growing and growing. While Athens is not as possibly several years, and never have a clear idea of comparable as Sydney, the trends have been that how we are going to get a handle on what they are people have visited the Olympics, they have seen and how we are going to deliver them. I suppose I am some of the athletics or whatever and they have built interested then, accepting that there is uncertainty at in a tourism visit. As you say, we shall get the market the moment, in what the process and timescale are from Europe, it is a much closer market, but then we by which targets will be set so that we can have a real shall get the American and the Australian market sense of where the public sector in Scotland sees the and the New Zealand market and one would benefits being and how they are actually going to be imagine they will come for longer stays. delivered. Mr Morton: I am going to give you two initial responses and then I shall pass over to Jane. You are Q234 Mr MacNeil: Is there any evidence from the quite right that, for reasons that we have already 1992 Olympics in Barcelona that there was any sort declared, it is early and it is very diYcult to be able of benefit to Seville or Bilbao or Santander or any to put a finger on tangible information which allows other cities in Spain of that kind? us to quantify the potential benefits. It would be Ms Cook: There is some evidence, but I am afraid I foolhardy of me, on behalf of Scottish Enterprise, to do not have it readily to hand. I am quite happy to speculate on that and then have to come back to you provide it. and explain how we got that spectacularly wrong. 3208392007 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 58 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

29 November 2005 Ms Linda McDowall, Mr Bill Morton and Ms Jane Cook

That would be hope in place of expectation. The bread-and-butter, ongoing work in Scotland is, second thing is that, as an organisation, we are very because this is a one-oV, highly prestigious, high accustomed to having targets that we work to and profile and all the rest of it? being accountable for them once they are set. The Mr Morton: I think not, and the reason I say that is question you ask about process is a very good one because Scottish Enterprise has the lead, but is not and some of that process is clarifying as time passes, the only organisation in Scotland involved in but a lot of it will come through the London economic development. If we have one primary Organising Committee and, again, through the objective, it is to contribute more to the growth of various nations and regions sub-sets, one of which the economy in Scotland and we would constantly will be in Scotland starting in January. Jane, do you scan the opportunities that are there and we would want to elaborate on that? prioritise accordingly. In the normal process of Ms Cook: Being the person at Scottish Enterprise things, that landscape will include the upcoming who is going to have to meet the targets set for me Olympic Games and indeed the Commonwealth by my boss, we shall be meeting as part of the Games. steering group and the first meeting is going to be in January next year. Julia Bracewell will be chairing Q238 Mr Davidson: So you are ready to fight more that group and I have already had some discussion than one war at a time. with Julia. The reason for starting to put together Mr Morton: Yes; we have had quite a lot of match targets within that group is very much the fact that practice in that regard. we shall all be round the same table. We shall be looking at targets and events, getting events here Q239 David Mundell: Being the concerned people we prior to the Games, looking at getting conferences are, we are also concerned for the legal profession in here prior to the Games, looking at when the Scotland and its future fee income. How confident facilities are going to be built, when the contracts are are you that any of the contracts will actually be going to come out. A lot of that will come when the done under Scottish law rather than the English and ODA is set up. They are looking at the next tranche Welsh legal system? Will those in the legal profession of contracts in July, so it is like fitting together a be able to benefit at all from contracts and legal giant jigsaw puzzle and it would be crazy to put a services? finger in the air now. We can say we know what Mr Morton: That is a very good question. I should Brisbane did, we know what Sydney did. We could not be foolhardy enough to speculate an answer on estimate, but it is much better to sit round the table technical diVerences between Scottish law and with the public sector organisations which are going anything else within the United Kingdom. The to be involved and set real, achievable targets. Once profession in Scotland is suYciently robust, and has we are together in the nation group, then we shall a very good reputation, that the services it can oVer start to put targets together and once we know what will meet the demands of those purchasing them and the timescale is for the contracts, which to me is a I should imagine that Scottish law firms will be in really important piece of jigsaw, one of the corners, quite a competitive position. That would be my once we know when the contracts are going to come hope. on stream, then we can start to set how many companies we are going to reach, how many Q240 Mr McGovern: Could you explain how IBM seminars we are going to run, how we are going to created 32 new patents through their contract with raise awareness of when the contracts are coming the Sydney Olympics? out. As you can appreciate, it is a massive jigsaw Ms Cook: One of our objectives will be, when puzzle, but as soon as we can get together in the new Scottish companies have actually secured contracts, year, we shall start to put it together. to work with them with our research and Mr Morton: We should be very happy to come back development arm to maximise these opportunities. and explain that when the information is available. IBM is just an example which was quoted to me by I am not ruling out the value or the potential value the Australian Consulate. If a company has to of some of the targets being aspirational; they do not deliver a contract and we can work with them using all have to be market researched, they do not all have the programmes we have at Scottish Enterprise and to be substantiated on that basis. There is a benefit technology development, we should hope to deliver in trying to stretch them both beyond that, but we these contracts in a way which will gain new patents should tell you at that point which of the targets are and therefore give the company access to additional aspirational and that we believe we might get there contracts and additional work elsewhere. It is a great if certain things happen, as opposed to what we way of showcasing the technology, innovation and might be able to predict could happen. capabilities of Scottish companies. Mr Morton: It is a small example of a larger point which we were trying to make and that is that there Q237 Mr Davidson: Could I ask for clarification? is a great opportunity here to learn how to make When we were discussing this question of targets and economic development dividend sustainable. That how your priorities might be focused on what is might most obviously be in some of the ways that the being done in the Olympics, is there not an extent to events are constructed or are managed. If there are which your overall work pattern might be distorted business opportunities which add value, we shall not by the Olympics, being a one-oV, and that you might necessarily be content if they are short-lived. We be taking your eye oV the ball of what your main want that to be an enduring legacy of benefit to 3208392007 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 59

29 November 2005 Ms Linda McDowall, Mr Bill Morton and Ms Jane Cook growth in the economy in Scotland. Patents are just plane in Glasgow and know that they are going to an example of that. If there is a piece of technological get a quality package. They can stay at an hotel, their innovation, then that allows a more competitive ticket will have lunch at a great Glasgow restaurant, position for that business to win contracts elsewhere. a day trip through to Edinburgh or down the coast. We shall be making sure with the industry that once we actually get them there, their visit will be a Q241 Chairman: Scottish Enterprise’s memorandum quality one. states that tourism is one of their priority industries Mr Morton: That is a very practical answer, which is and you have sportscotland and EventScotland to appropriate. At a higher level there is also the attract international events. Can you tell us what Scottish Executive and the Minister for Culture, other initiatives you are going to take? Media and Sport and it is very important, as she will Mr Morton: When we say that is one of our priority no doubt tell you in due course, that she has a role industries, Scottish Enterprise is very keen to focus overseeing all of this. We, as an agent of support on a number of business sectors or types in Government, have a very specific role to play. We Scotland where we believe we have a distinct understand that role and we are well versed in advantage and tourism is one of those. We would working alongside organisations like COSLA and work very closely with VisitScotland in terms of its constituent local authorities, VisitScotland, trying to understand where the market opportunities sportscotland and EventScotland, each playing to are. To come back to this point about setting targets, their own strengths. Our specific role is to contribute be they aspirational or not, Scottish Enterprise is an to economic development and hopefully growth in economic development agency and where we believe the economy. we can add greatest value would be in supporting the businesses which would either grow or develop to take advantage of these contracts and also to play Q244 Chairman: During our meeting with COSLA, our part alongside VisitScotland. When they are we were told that local authorities play a significant trying to market Scotland, we should want to make role in promoting tourism. Are you working with sure that we sang from the same song sheet. The them in partnership or how are you involved with profile-raising was a way of putting something them to attract more tourism? tangible back into the economic development of Mr Morton: The engagements with local authorities our country. across Scotland, particularly in the context of our network of local enterprise companies, are probably too numerous to mention, but many of these do have Q242 Chairman: I can understand that your primary a bearing on the promotion of tourism; that is in objective is to support businesses, expand businesses concert with the Scottish Executive and particularly and probably create new businesses, but how do you VisitScotland which has that profile-raising, get involved in attracting holidaymakers to marketing remit. For example, one of our enterprise Scotland? companies, Scottish Enterprise Ayrshire, and the Mr Morton: Technically that is quite clearly the role three local authorities in Ayrshire would be very of VisitScotland; it is their purpose in life. We should actively involved in the Burns Homecoming to try to support what they want to try to achieve and the capture, not just for their own part of Scotland but manner in which they deliver this. That is something for Scotland, the maximum number of visitors which would be agreed in the steering group, where which could be delivered on the back of that very the respective and complementary roles of all significant event. the bodies in Scotland, COSLA, VisitScotland, sportscotland, EventScotland, Scottish Enterprise, Q245 Chairman: There is huge potential and a huge Highlands and Islands Enterprise, were all identified potential challenge as well. Are you and your and geared accordingly. partners ready for this challenge? Mr Morton: Absolutely. Q243 Danny Alexander: Many diVerent agencies are Ms Cook: Yes; absolutely. involved in this and you clearly have committees Ms McDowall: Yes. meeting together. I appreciate that there are lots of diVerent ways in which Scotland can benefit from Q246 Mr Davidson: We have been asked to consider the Olympics, but who is in overall charge? If you whether or not it would be beneficial for Scottish have a committee which meets, is there one sport if we had a separate Scottish Olympic team. organisation, one body, one individual who is going May I just clarify this in terms of the economics of all to be making sure that all the diVerent agencies are of this, the benefits to tourism, the benefits of gaining fulfilling their part of the remit to help Scotland contracts, whether or not you believe that there is benefit? any evidence that would make any diVerence? Ms Cook: That is basically the remit of the chair of Mr Morton: I thought about this question in case it the Nations and Regions Steering Group, Julia arose and my initial response, which I hope you do Bracewell, who is chair of sportscotland. Just to give not think is in any way disrespectful or facetious, is you an example on the tourism side of joined-up that being a longstanding Partick Thistle season thinking, in VisitScotland we are very involved with ticket holder, I do not know anything about VisitUK to bring visitors in. Where we get involved football. I can only respect the right of the SFA to is getting the companies to work together to form make the decision as regards football without any packages. The visitor wants to get oV the train or observation on it. I believe that with the Team GB 3208392007 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 60 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

29 November 2005 Ms Linda McDowall, Mr Bill Morton and Ms Jane Cook approach to the Olympic Games it is very important Ms Cook: I guess, with my sports hat on, that my that Scotland is geared up in terms of sporting answer to that would have to be that it is not within excellence in order to take advantage of that and our gift. The IOC dictate— that comes back to Scotland. Whether it would be any diVerent if there were anything other than a Q252 Mr Davidson: I know that. I understand that. Team GB, I would not hazard a guess. That was not the question I was asking you. I was asking you whether or not you thought there would Q247 Mr Davidson: Is that a “don’t know” then? be benefit to Scotland in terms of sport were we to Mr Morton: That is a “don’t know”. It is not so have a separate Scottish team at the Olympics. much a “don’t know” as “I don’t intend to answer Ms Cook: It is something I have never considered, that question”. on the basis that we do not have that gift. My understanding, from speaking to other athletes in Scotland, is that they are absolutely delighted to be Q248 Mr Davidson: I did suspect that, but I do think part of Team GB. I cannot say much more than that. it is a question which we are entitled to ask. Mr Morton: In all fairness the only answer which Mr Morton: Absolutely. could be given would be one of personal opinion. You asked me about economic benefit and that is a Q249 Mr Davidson: You are absolutely meant to be reasonable question: I have no evidence on which to the experts in terms of economic development and base that judgment. tourism spin-oVs and all the rest of it. Mr Morton: Indeed. Q253 Mr Davidson: We also had a suggestion, which personally I regard as a crackpot one but which Q250 Mr Davidson: Therefore the question of nonetheless it is reasonable for us to put it to you, whether or not there would be any economic that Scotland would perhaps benefit from being part development gains or tourism benefits from having of an EU team. I hasten to add this was not a separate Scottish team is one which we are quite suggested by any of the members who are presently entitled to ask you. I am not sure that it is entirely here, but nonetheless the point was raised. Is there reasonable for you to decline to tell us. Maybe you any evidence that were Scotland to be part of an EU could reconsider slightly whether or not you would team there would be any economic or tourism want to give us any information one way or the benefits flowing as a result? other. Mr Morton: Not that I am aware of. Mr Morton: In all honesty, I do not have an answer Q254 Chairman: May I thank the witnesses for their at this time. I have no evidence upon which to base a attendance this afternoon. Before I declare the judgment. I have given you an opinion and I entirely meeting closed, do you want to add anything on the respect the origin of the question and the reason it subject which was not covered already during our was asked and I have answered it to the best of my questioning? ability. Mr Morton: I do not think so. I should just like to thank you for the opportunity and again to repeat Q251 Mr Davidson: I see that Ms Cook is a former our willingness to come back and perhaps answer judo international for both Scotland and Britain and your question in a more substantive fashion in time. therefore presumably not a woman to be messed I hope you understand that we are still at quite an with. Can you give us an indication, as a former early stage. sports person, whether or not you think it would Chairman: Thank you once again; your evidence will make any diVerence to Scotland were we to be be extremely helpful when we compile our report. represented by a separate Scottish team? Thank you.

Supplementary memorandum submitted to the Committee by Scottish Enterprise

Response to Q234

“Is there any evidence from the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona that there was any sort of benefit to Seville or Bilbao or Santander or any other cities in Spain of that kind?” I replied that there was some evidence but that I did not have it readily to hand and would forward it to the Committee. I have now revisited the various sources of evidence available and would respond accordingly. Despite the claim that the Barcelona Games were characterised by geographical decentralisation into a number of towns in Valencia and Aragon regions there is very little statistical evidence of economic impact outside the City of Barcelona and its metropolitan area. The two areas of statistical information available include: 1. Infrastructural spend (estimated at US $8,012,000,000) 3208392008 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 61

67.5% of infrastructural spend was made in Barcelona and its metropolitan area, 16% was made in the Catalonia region and the balance was not limited to a specific location (eg investment in telecoms). (Source—“An Economic Analysis of the Barcelona ’92 Olympic Games.” Ferran Brunet). 2. Unemployment The labour market in Barcelona, its region and in Spain improved substantially during the period of preparation for the Olympics. From October 1986 to July 1992 the general rate of unemployment dropped drastically despite a general economic crisis across Europe in the ’90s, (related in part to the aftermath of German reunification). The claim was that the Games provided a “buVer” nationally against these eVects. In 1986 unemployment figures across Spain ranged from 18.4% to 23.7%. In 1992 this range was 9.6% to 15.5%. National Employment Institute figures show a steady decline over the period. There is no evidence readily available concerning economic impact on other Cities in the Country. It would be fair to say however that the 1992 Barcelona Olympics were intended as a driving force to revive a city stagnating due to decreased political activity and loss of industry. The stated objectives of the Games were “organisational excellence and urban impact”. The organising structure set up to deliver the Games reflected this ie there was no “Nations and Regions Group”. Jane Cook Senior Manager Operations Scottish Enterprise 19 December 2005 3208392009 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 62 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

Wednesday 7 December 2005

Members present:

Mr Mohammad Sarwar, in the Chair

Danny Alexander Mr Jim McGovern Mr Ian Davidson Mr Charles Walker Mr Angus MacNeil

Memorandum submitted to the Scottish AVairs Committee by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport

Summary The Government welcomes the opportunity of this inquiry to set out how the whole of the UK, including Scotland, stand to benefit from hosting the Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2012. Whilst London will act as “host city” the Government is determined that they will be the “UK’s Games”. The Government understand that London 2012 Ltd will also be submitting evidence to the Committee. That evidence will support and complement what is set out in our response below. The Government believes that hosting the Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2012 will provide a huge boost to sport across the UK impacting on our children and young people in schools right through our communities to our elite athletes. But the Games also oVer the opportunity for the UK to realise significant benefits in social and economic terms. However, we also understand that realising those benefits is by no means a fait accompli and the experience of previous hosts tells us that we need to work hard to make sure we take full advantage of the opportunities that hosting the Games aVords. Levels of public support for the bid were amongst the highest in the UK—at over 80%. At a political level the bid also received much appreciated support from the Scottish Executive. We hope that the enthusiasm for the bid in Scotland means that we will be welcoming large numbers of Scottish supporters to London in 2012 to support Team GB’s athletes. The Government also recognises how important it will be to work very closely with the Scottish Executive, and other key delivery agencies in Scotland, and hope to build on the extremely positive working relationships that developed during the bidding phase.

Working Relationships and Delivery Structures London 2012 Ltd established a Nations and Regions Group during the bidding phase to represent views of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as the English Regions as the bid’s plans were developed and finalised. This Group proved to be an extremely eVective mechanism at raising awareness of London’s bid, promoting the potential benefits of the Games, and gathering support from people right across the UK. The Government is determined that the Nations and Regions Group should continue, and that the group should now focus on delivering and realising the potential benefits from the Games for all parts of the UK.

Hampden Park—Olympic Venue In developing our plans, the Government was keen that Olympic competition should be appropriately distributed across the whole of the UK wherever possible. Therefore we were delighted to confirm that Hampden Park will be one of the venues for the Olympic football competition. This will mean Scotland will experience first hand the excitement of Olympic competition. However, whilst the International Olympic Committee (IOC) welcome the geographical spread of the football competition they also demand a compact Games minimising the distance and travelling times between venues and the athletes village. It is the IOC’s experience that the clustering the venues in and around the host city helps to make a more successful Games. That is why London 2012 Ltd, in putting forward their final venues plans (as set out in Theme 8 of the Candidate File) have not located more Olympic competition outside of London, or proposed staging any further Olympic competition in Scotland. 3208392009 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 63

Commonwealth Games The Government is pleased that Glasgow has decided to bid for the 2014 Commonwealth Games and wishes the bid team well. The experience of the bidding and planning for 2012 should also serve Glasgow well in developing their proposals for 2014 and the Glasgow bid team can rely on the Government’s and London 2012 Ltd’s full support.

Sport The Olympics oVer a unique opportunity for sport in the UK. The Government set out its long term strategy for sport in Game Plan: a strategy for delivering Government’s sport and physical activity objectives. The long term vision for sport and physical activity by 2012 is to “increase significantly the levels of sport and physical activity, particularly among disadvantaged groups, and to achieve sustained levels of success in international competition”. The inspirational eVect of the Olympics and the specific initiatives we already have in place for sport in the UK should help in achieving those goals. Scottish athletes were very successful as part of Team GB in Athens, with Chris Hoy and Shirley Robertson winning gold. The Government is committed to that continuing support for Scottish athletes with 20 young athletes receiving support through our TASS scheme, with the aim that there will be many more British, including Scottish, medallists in 2012.

Volunteering The Games will require 70,000 volunteers to ensure the successful delivery of the Games. Those volunteers will be drawn from across the country. Volunteering for the Games oVers an excellent opportunity to learn new skills and prepare those who are out or work for a return to employment. It is also a hugely rewarding experience and we hope the enthusiasm to volunteer for 2012—with 65,000 people having already registered their interest—will translate into a long term increase in volunteering in communities across the UK.

Cultural Festival A four year cultural festival will accompany the Games. The cultural Olympaid will touch communities up and down the country and will engage people in the values of the Olympic movement and the spirit of Olympism. The cultural festival will see various cultural events—from festivals and fairs, to exhibitions and carnivals across the UK and will allow us to showcase the best of the UK’s creative and artistic talent.

Training Camps Visiting teams for the 2012 Games will want to ensure their athletes are acclimatised and well prepared for the Games. The experience from Australia shows that 179 countries undertook pre-Games training in locations across Australia. The British Team injected A$6 million to the Queensland economy as a result of their preparation camp on the Gold Coast. Whilst the decision of where to locate pre-Games camps will ultimately be for visiting national Olympic Committees, the Government and London 2012 we will be working with all nations and regions to ensure they are given advice and support to help them attract the “business” of visiting teams.

Tourism The UK will become the centre of the world’s attention during Games time in 2012. The Government is determined that we use the opportunities that hosting the Games aVords to raise the profile of the UK as a tourist destination. The Olympics in Barcelona and Sydney had significantly positive eVects on visitor numbers and tourist spending. We hope to replicate that positive experience in the lead up to, during, and after 2012 for the whole of the UK. Spectators for the Games in 2012 will naturally want to see what else the UK has to oVer—and Scotland will be able to market itself to a new international audience as a first class tourist destination.

Procurement Opportunities There will be significant opportunities to win contracts related to the Olympic and Paralympic Games. These range from multi million pound contracts to deliver the stadia and infrastructure right through to the catering contracts for the oYcials and volunteers who will run the Games. These contracts will be tendered in a fair and open way and will provide UK companies with an opportunity to win billions of pounds worth of new business. By way of example, it is worth noting that a Scottish company, Navy Blue design, won the contract to design and produce the London 2012 candidate file. 3208392010 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 64 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

We also hope that with UK companies tendering for, and winning major Games contracts, they will enhance their international reputation and will be in a good position to bid for future Olympic contracts. Hosting the Games in 2012 allows UK companies to develop specialisms and expertise. Australian companies, building on their experience in Sydney, went on to win 10% of the capital projects for the Beijing Games.

Intangible Benefits The tangible benefits of hosting the Games, set out in summary above, were a key reason behind the Government’s decision to support London’s bid. But the intangible benefits of hosting the Games in 2012, the feel good factor that staging the Games will aVord, is something that should not be forgotten when assessing the impacts of the Games. London’s bid was founded on valuing and embracing diversity and a successful Games in 2012 will provide a help strengthen our sense of national identity—in its various forms—and provide a boost to a sense of national pride. 3 October 2005

Witnesses: Rt Hon Richard Caborn, a Member of the House, and Mr Paul Oldfield, Senior Policy Adviser, Olympic Games Unit, Department for Culture, Media and Sport, gave evidence.

Q255 Chairman: Good afternoon. It is my pleasure sure that we have got a proper line of to welcome you Minister, to this meeting of the communication and a flow of information going Scottish AVairs Committee. As you are aware, we both ways. We have asked all the component parts are conducting an inquiry into The Potential of the UK to draw up a strategy to address the issues Benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics. Before which were in our submission, where we believe we start on the detailed questions, would you like to advantages can be had. That is an audit on all sports make an opening statement? facilities, so we know where holding camps can go, Mr Caborn: I would only like to say, Chairman, on tourism, the supply chain and also the thank you very much for the invitation, and can I say development of the cultural festival that we will thank you to the population of Scotland because it have. I will say a little more about that later. Also, was very, very helpful, as we were running to the bid, we need 70,000 volunteers and, again, we want to that slightly over 80%, when it was polled, of the make sure there is a good spread of both national Scottish population was supporting the 2012 bid. and international who will be able to work in that. When we set oV to show that the country was behind We will be collating all the activities of the devolveds us, we had what we call “Leap for the Olympics”; we and the regions which should then be fed back into expected to get around about a million and we had the respective bodies. The Olympic Board is made in excess of three million. It really did show what up of the Mayor’s OYce, the Government and the tremendous support we had for the bid and BOA. Underneath that, as it was cleared last night particularly, as I say, from Scotland. That was very in the House of Commons, there will be two major pleasing indeed. I thank all those who were companies: one is LOCOG, the Local Organising supportive of us. Can I also say to the Scottish Committee, responsible back to the IOC, and the Executive as well, again they have been incredibly other one is the Olympic Delivery Authority, which supportive to us, both in terms of lobbying and also is eVectively a construction company. Underneath in other areas as well. I hope now we have won that, that is the Nations and Regions and it will be feeding as we all remember that day on 6 July when the into any one of those three the information coming envelope was opened and it said “London”, that is out from their various consultations, making sure only the start. I hope we can deliver, right across the that the decisions that those three companies make whole of the United Kingdom, obviously including are well informed about the potential and the Scotland, what I believe are tremendous activities inside the regions. We do not want beggar opportunities on the back of 2012. my neighbour, we want to maximise it for the whole of the UK, and that is the way we believe it ought to Q256 Chairman: Thank you. As the UK Minister for be managed. Sport, I believe that you have to be impartial. If diVerent nations and regions of the UK approach you and lobby you wanting the Government’s Q257 Chairman: Minister, you have mentioned that support in order to secure training camps or win you need 70,000 volunteers and I believe 65,000 construction contracts in their areas, how will you volunteers have already registered. Can you tell me resist? what percentage of those volunteers come from Mr Caborn: I think what we are trying to do to make Scotland? sure that we maximise the benefits of 2012 for the Mr Caborn: I cannot answer that, but I will make whole of the UK is we have reconstituted the sure that information is furnished to your Nations and Regions Committee, which is chaired Committee. I will contact the people who are dealing by Charles Allen, the Chief Executive of ITV. He with the volunteering and make sure that chaired the previous Nations and Regions information is there.1 Committee. We will be putting a full-time person in each of the devolveds and also in the regions to make 1 See Ev 72 3208392010 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 65

7 December 2005 Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP and Mr Paul Oldfield

Q258 Mr Davidson: Would it be possible, also, to tell Mr Caborn: I hope we can do better on the debts us which parts of Scotland they come from, because than we did in SheYeld on that, but we will park that one of the things I would be worried about is that one on one side. We had our sports cabinet meeting people from an area like mine would not be able to in CardiV, where all the sport’s ministers and the aVord to participate as volunteers because of the sports bodies were there, Sport England, high cost of travel and the like. Can you tell us what sportscotland and so on, and it was chaired by my steps are being made to ensure that the opportunity Secretary of State, Tessa Jowell. All of us gave full to volunteer is available to everyone, irrespective of support to Patricia there that we were supporting their social background or their financial means? that bid. One of the things we want to do with 2012 Mr Caborn: I think that is right, Mr Davidson, we is we are looking now at running, what we call in our have got to watch that carefully. I say that from the terms, a school Olympics which we want to run every experience we had on the Commonwealth Games, year starting next year, building each year a few which is probably the second largest multi-sport more disciplines as we move towards 2011. We event outside the Olympics. There were about 10,000 would like to have the finals, one in Scotland, on in volunteers in the Commonwealth Games, but what Wales, on in Northern Ireland, one in the North and was very pleasing was that many young people who one in the Midlands, finishing in 2011 with those were eVectively unemployed, by the skills they games in the facilities that will have been completed gained through being volunteers on the ready for 2012. After a discussion with some of your Commonwealth found themselves in jobs. I know colleagues in Scotland, we thought it would be best companies like ASDA and others who were working to have the final in Scotland next year simply closely with us found work opportunities for them because it would give a launch pad for the after the Games. It can be a way into employment by Commonwealth Games. We are still working that getting skills through volunteering. I think the point through and hope to make some announcements early in the New Year. Again, it is by way of you make is right, there has got to be a spread across illustration that we will do everything we can to social groups and we will be looking at that. make sure that Scotland is seen as a major bidder for Mr Oldfield: To add to that point, also I think what those Commonwealth Games. I will be working with we are looking to do with all the 70,000 volunteers your Minister in Melbourne at the Commonwealth who have volunteered already is making sure that Games at the beginning of next year. they are active in their communities and get on with volunteering work now and do not just wait until 2012. We use that resource of people who have Q261 Chairman: What advice would you give already volunteered and make sure that we use that Patricia Ferguson so that she can ensure that in their communities at the moment. Scotland secures the maximum benefits from the Games so we can take full advantage of the opportunities? Q259 Chairman: Minister, can you confirm that it is Mr Caborn: I think there are a number of things we the responsibility of the Scottish Executive, rather have learned. Before we decided to make the bid for than DCMS, to argue and support Scotland’s case? the Olympics, my Secretary of State and I travelled Mr Caborn: What is meant by “argue” and who is around the world talking to a lot of people in a lot the arguing to? I can assure you that were this the of cities that had run the Olympics. They were very Olympics or your bid for the Commonwealth generous with the advice they were giving. Whilst Games, they have not been backward in coming they did not wash their dirty linen in public, they told forward in asking for support for a number of issues us what some of the major pitfalls were. I think we around sport from, as it were, UK Limited and have learned an immense amount from that which through the DCMS. As I say, we are hoping that on we will hopefully use in developing the company the back of 2012 and our experience on bidding a lot structures which we have got now. Basically there of that is going to be used now for Scotland’s bid for are three sets of skills you need: a skill set to win the the Commonwealth Games. I am working very bid; a skill set to deliver the infrastructure and a skill closely with your Sports Minister, Patricia set to deliver the Games itself. That is why the Ferguson, on that bid. We are doing everything we structure of the companies are as they are. Also to can to prosecute that. I will be working with her in make sure that you get all the levers of power that Australia early next year when the Commonwealth you need to build major infrastructures, it needs Games is taking place. It depends on what exactly CPOs, planning, a robust budget and also a good you mean; I am not quite sure, Chairman, what you delivery mechanism in a company structure. I mean by that. No doubt, Scotland will be lobbying believe, again, we have delivered all that. What is itself, but I think there are areas sometimes where we important—one of the things that many have failed can help Scotland. on—is the legacy. For example, in Sydney they told us very clearly that they did not factor the legacy into their thinking as early as they believed they ought to Q260 Chairman: I am talking about the have done. That is why they are left with an Olympic Commonwealth Games and to what extent the park which is costing them something round about British Government will support Scotland’s bid to ten million pounds a year just to service. That is not bring the Commonwealth Games since you have servicing the debt, that is just servicing the facilities. successfully brought the World Student Games to They would not have built another arena because SheYeld. What advice can you give? the downtown arena in Sydney would have done. 3208392010 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 66 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

7 December 2005 Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP and Mr Paul Oldfield

They had no anchor tenant for the main stadium, West. There are a lot of opportunities there and it is which is now a major revenue problem to them, a how you use them. The catalyst to do good is the drain on revenue. I think building the legacy in is Games itself. incredibly important. That is why we have put so much emphasis on making sure that every piece of Q263 Chairman: Scottish Local Authorities invest real estate we build has an anchor tenant or a use some £200 million per annum in sports and after it. Indeed, we want to make sure that the legacy contribute £140 million to economic development. of competition and the legacy of the human Can you remind the Committee how much the UK capital—I was talking a little earlier on Government makes available for both sport and volunteering—is built into a very strong legacy economic development in Scotland? theme. Finally on that, I think what we did in Mr Caborn: I do not know that figure and I am sure Manchester shows that it can be done, even against my oYcials do not know that figure. I am not going a bit of adverse publicity sometimes. The stadium in to start guessing. Manchester was designed such that it would be an athletics track for six to eight weeks and then be Q264 Chairman: There is no problem; you can pass ripped up and sunk by two metres to then turn into a on this information to us. football stadium. You cannot do that after you have Mr Caborn: I shall pass on that and I will make sure designed it, it has to be built in at the design stage. that my oYcials write to you and give you that The role that stadium has played in regeneration of information. 2 the east side of Manchester is considerable and it is not a revenue drain on the local authority either Q265 Mr Davidson: In terms of the preparation for now. Both financially and also in terms of the Games, obviously there needs to be funding regeneration that was successful. I think that is the made available to allow Britain’s elite athletes to approach you have got to have if you are going to prepare for that. What is the mechanism for maximise the Commonwealth Games or, indeed, the additional funding to be made available? Olympic Games. Mr Caborn: UK Sport has got the responsibility for elite development in the whole of the United Kingdom. You probably know that in the recent Q262 Danny Alexander If I can follow up on this past we have repositioned UK Sport to make sure point about the legacy. The things you described that all the revenue streams that go into elite sport there under the heading of the legacy have largely are going directly now into UK Sport. We have been physical infrastructure based, if you like, brought in the English Institute for Sport under the making sure the physical infrastructure that is umbrella of UK Sport and we have also given them created for the Olympics can then be made proper responsibility for what they call the talented athlete use of afterwards. Clearly, there is not going to be scholarship scheme. They have got all the funding new physical infrastructure in Scotland, so, from the mechanisms under their wing, as it were. They have point of view of this Committee’s report, I am been working with Peter Keen, who is one of the interested to know what other aspects you see as employees of UK Sport, on a model of what the being part of the legacy that might well be more investment has got to be and where it has got to be applicable to Scotland? to deliver on the elite side, both in terms of the Mr Caborn: Obviously on the question of Olympics and also the wider elite as well. Mr volunteering, straightaway you have got a great Davidson, in the Olympics there are 26 disciplines, opportunity there to be able to bring people in to I have got responsibility for 130 sports, so we have give them that type of training, and that is a legacy. always got to be a little careful that when we say we The competition structures that you would develop are just going to invest in the elite, we do not just around that could give sustainable competition invest in the 26 sports. For example, cricket, rugby— structures as well, particularly as far as amateur I know it is a great love of yours—both League and sport is concerned. It is how you develop the cultural Union, are not Olympic sports, neither is golf, which aspects of it because I think that is a big window, is another Scottish pastime, or netball, so there are particularly up in Scotland with its great history and some big sports which are not Olympic sports. When great opportunity to be able to exploit tourism and we start talking about elite, we have got to make sure the cultural side of that very eVectively, so there is a that they are not at the expense of that. We are whole range. Again, in Manchester what was very hoping to have a meeting with the Treasury early usefully done was to bring all the industries together. next year with Sue Campbell and Peter Keen, along Sir Digby Jones was very proactive in this from the with myself and my colleague, John Healey, to work CBI. They had a Friends of Manchester and Friends through what is necessary to put into place for 2012. of the North West. You get a lot of visitors to the Games in the nature of the Commonwealth and the Q266 Mr Davidson: Should we be concerned that Olympics and they come to the city and come to the there was no mention in the Chancellor’s Pre-Budget area and you could set up business meetings as well Review of enhanced financing for elite sport? in areas that they would want to go and see. There Mr Caborn: The PBR is not necessarily a place was a lot of business activity around the Games as where you would make that, it is the big architecture well. The legacy of that is to be seen because they of the Budget, as you would know, Mr Davidson, have now set up a lot of contacts which are now, as it were, bearing fruit in the economy of the North 2 See Ev 72 3208392010 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 67

7 December 2005 Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP and Mr Paul Oldfield and in relative terms this is small. What I can assure Mr Caborn: All of them. There is already a you is that there will be a dialogue with UK Sport, committee that is meeting in Scotland looking at my Department and the oYcials at Treasury in the this, and that is Scottish Enterprise, the sports early part of next year when we will be discussing the bodies and the Scottish Executive, as I understand. very issues you are talking about. Mr Oldfield: The London Organising Committee and the BOA are committed to producing a guide to the facilities that exist in the UK and the places Q267 Danny Alexander: You answered the first part where training camps could potentially take place. of my question, which was that obviously if we are The Scottish Executive, Scottish Enterprise and looking to develop champions for the Olympics in sportscotland are a part of that, but the Organising 2012 then, firstly, that decision has to be made early Committee and the BOA between them will produce to get that funding in place. Secondly, from a this guide that will then go to other visiting teams Scottish point of view, it is important to recognise and National Olympic Committees so they are that champions of 2012 could come from any part of informed about where they can site their training the United Kingdom, so that funding is available to camps. help develop those potential champions and ensure that whether they live in Aviemore or anywhere else across the country those individuals can get the Q270 Mr McGovern: Do you know who the support they need to fulfil their full potential. representative of Scotland is on the Nations and Mr Caborn: Absolutely, and that is why UK Sport Regions? is the funding body. Obviously you get individuals, Mr Oldfield: Julia Bracewell is chair of where it could be a Scot on their own, but there are sportscotland. many Scots who are in teams with English, Welsh Mr McGovern: Yes, we have met her. and Northern Irish; that is a UK team. The funding of elite is through UK Sport through to Scotland, Q271 Mr MacNeil: I wonder if you can quantify in Wales and Northern Ireland. They meet together any way—I know it is early days—the financial collectively as well. Your Director of Sport and a benefits to Scotland of the London Olympics, representative of sportscotland are on UK Sport. mindful in a way that the clue might be in the name of the London Olympics and it might not be possible to give us as big a benefit as if the Olympics were in Q268 Mr McGovern: Do you believe that central Scotland. Just a point of clarification as well, will Government has a role to play in trying to persuade there be any loss of lottery money going into overseas’ Olympic associations to set up their Scotland over the next number of years before the training camps in economically deprived or fragile Olympics? areas? If so, how diYcult would you perceive that Mr Caborn: On the last point, there should not be to be? any loss of lottery money, it may be repositioned Mr Caborn: The first thing you have got to answer is because obviously you well know that we set up what are the facilities you have got. That is why we the Olympic Lottery, which is doing incredibly well. are asking the devolveds and the regions to do an £4 million had already been banked, and I looked at audit, eVectively, of the facilities they have got. You the figures last night and it was just over five million; have got some of the big teams. If you take the big it has been incredibly successful. The displacement teams like China, Canada or Australia, who will from the others has not been as great as was probably add to 26 disciplines of the Olympics, if originally anticipated. I would not have thought they want to hold their camps together then they will there would be any loss at all. want facilities that can cater for the vast majority of those disciplines. You may then get a country which Q272 Mr MacNeil: You are saying there will be no has just got a group of runners. Kenya is a very loss of lottery money to Scotland at all? specialist team and they will be looking around for Mr Caborn: No. What I am saying, though, and I am very specialist conditions for their particular V making it very clear what I am saying, is with the rest athletes. First of all, I think you set o from the basis of the country we are taking £1.5 billion, which is the of what they will be doing; they will be looking at the lottery draw that will go to funding the Games facilities that are available for them and then making across the piece, as it were. those decisions. What we want to try and do is help all the devolveds and the regions to make sure their facilities are in place. It might need some investment Q273 Mr MacNeil: Year on year we should still see in some of these areas as well, that is another thing the same spend in Scotland? that LOCOG is looking at very seriously, to make Mr Caborn: The spend in Scotland in terms of what sure we have got good quality facilities for those we are doing on elite athletes, of that £1.5 billion, training camps and, again, that will be part of the £350 million—I think it is—is for athletes and that legacy as well. will be spent in Scotland as it will be anywhere else in the country. It is not easy, so I do not want to give an absolutely categorical guarantee on that because Q269 Mr McGovern: Who do you believe should be we do not know the patterns that will emerge. In taking a lead in trying to attract teams to set up the terms of the advantages, it is diYcult to quantify. training camps? Do you believe it should be the The other day I was saying to a committee that I Government, the Scottish Executive, local went to look at Terminal 5 and the impact that has authorities, all of these or someone else entirely? had on the British economy is something round 3208392010 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 68 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

7 December 2005 Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP and Mr Paul Oldfield about 7,000 people employed on the site, but there Midlands. We also want to start the cultural festival. are some tens of thousands employed oV site. The The two things that would give us, if we run the supply chain into that is complex. In the North East games in that way—I think we will be able to do they have got a whole shipyard working on some of that—is firstly to start training the volunteers on the modules that they need for T5. Hundreds of that and, secondly, it will leave us with a legacy of these are being produced, in fact basically taking probably one of the best competition structures for over fabrication, welding and good quality schools and young people anywhere in the world. I engineering. What we want to see is the supply chain think we will be looking at the cultural festival, into the South East because labour is quite expensive which we want to set up from 2007 onward. The in the South East, as we know some would argue it BBC is very interested in the school sports and they is somewhat overheated, therefore if they can are working with us. I think we will have an manufacture oV site and bring on, as they have done arrangement with them whereby a lot of these school very, very successfully in T5, that is a project that is sports activities could well be shown on television just under £5 billion, probably the biggest single regionally, or in your case nationally, and then also construction programme in Europe at the moment. for the finals to be run on national television as well. They are guaranteeing it will come in on time and, On the cultural side of it, it is quite interesting indeed, under price. I think if we can get that type of because if we could show the best of the devolveds skill and that type of approach to what, again, is a and the regions to the world as we move into 2012, massive construction project here, then all parts of it is going to create great opportunities on music, the United Kingdom will gain from that. Then you dance and poetry. Again, the BBC is looking at this look at things like tourism and the cultural festival. with us as to whether it can run some type of I do not know what Edinburgh will be doing as it interactive appreciation—they are doing it now runs up to 2012, whether they will be doing all sorts successfully on all sorts of programmes—and show of other things around the Edinburgh Festival, but some of the early stage. That, I believe, will be an all those are great opportunities where there could involvement and not four weeks of sport in London. be quite significant gains. This is about the spirit of the Olympics being used very pro-actively to engage young people. The Q274 Mr MacNeil: It is hard to pin down the narrative we used at the Olympics was how we could definitive benefits, it is really potential opportunities use the spirit of the Olympic movement to reconnect that we can highlight at the moment. young people back into sport through the five rings. Mr Caborn: Absolutely. That is why, through the School sports, the cultural festival, volunteering are Nations and Regions, we do not want this to become all part of people being involved through the a race to the bottom, a beggar my neighbour, we Olympic ideals. It is a big sporting spectacular for want to make sure that we are driving from the four or five weeks but it goes wider than that and highest common factor, not the lowest common that is how we can engage a lot of those people, the denominator. We want to make sure that everybody millions who will not be able to go to London. gets the advantage. I think Scotland is extremely well placed to do that. Q276 Mr Walker: What I am interested in is the young people who have no treats in their life. My kids will go because I am well oV. Angus’s kids will Q275 Mr Walker: Minister, the Chairman wrote a V letter to Alistair Darling, Secretary of State for go because he is well o but there are people growing Scotland, expressing this Committee’s concerns that up in extremely strained circumstances, young the Olympics may become a jamboree for the rich, people, and I feel unless the government establish famous and powerful and exclude people from some sort of endowment fund or somebody reaches poorer backgrounds.3 We were wondering what into their pocket there are going to be whole swathes measures you think could be put in place to ensure, of people who are under-privileged who can watch it perhaps, people from inner city Glasgow and the on television but they will not get to be in the regions get a chance to attend the Olympics, bearing stadium and feel the excitement. That is what I am in mind that some of these people are coming from trying to get at. We need to democratise it. households with incomes of less than £6,000 a year. Mr Caborn: We are not down to that detail. I hear Mr Caborn: First of all, we are not London centric what you say. I have no doubt this will be a in that sense. We are embarking upon making sure recommendation in your Committee report. It is something we will give serious consideration to. You that the spirit of the Olympics, particularly in this country, is used eVectively. That is why we want to are right. We do not want it to pass people by. We run the schools games, where we want to involve as want as many people to get that experience as many young people as possible competing in sports, possible. It is inspiring, particularly for young to be able to have the regional finals, in your case people in a disadvantaged area, and it could change your national finals, and then to compete at a UK their lives. Where we can make that available by level every year and moving that round the country whatever means, we will do that. I will make sure it with the finals. As I say, we would like to start that is raised in the appropriate committees. in Scotland next year, for the reasons I have said about the Commonwealth, and then move to Q277 Chairman: Committee members are concerned CardiV, Northern Ireland, the North and the and many of their constituents are extremely concerned. Everybody celebrates in this country, 3 See Ev 74 rich, poor, powerful and famous, but if we do not 3208392010 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 69

7 December 2005 Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP and Mr Paul Oldfield give some special concessions to the deprived Mr Caborn: It will be diYcult though for the guy in community and deprived young people, how can we Penzance to get to Hampden Park to watch the reconnect them with support so that they feel they Great Britain team play Brazil. are taking part in the Olympics? Mr Caborn: I do not know. We have not discussed Q281 Danny Alexander: That is true. As the vast that. It is an area that we will have to discuss in the majority of events are taking place in London, I future. I will raise it particularly with Seb Coe and think it is a point that is very important. If you are the LOCOG Committee because they have the trying to subsidise train tickets, for example, from responsibility for ticketing and the running of the Inverness to London, say, that is obviously a cross- Games. Ticket prices for events will be fair and V border issue so there is maybe a Scottish remit or a a ordable. Tickets will be available to every range. UK remit and we want to ensure that those things do A total of 9.6 million tickets will be available for not fall through the cracks, not least because, for the Olympics and Paralympic Games. Of these, example, with the rail franchises now, some of these 4.3 million tickets will cost £20 or less, 6.2 million are accountable at a UK level and some at a Scottish will be £30 or less and 7.6 million will be £50 or less. level. There is a real danger that things like that Whether that has been useful to this discussion I do could slip through the cracks if there is not a very not know but it is something that we will have to joined up structure to look at them. look at if we are going to get to some of those Mr Caborn: The numbers we are talking about, deprived areas that you are talking about where it relatively speaking, are small—the amount of people can be inspirational for those kids. who travel up and down, for example, the east coast main line. It would be great if GNER were to give Q278 Mr Davidson: The background to this is that free transport. It would be a fantastic contribution we are conscious that football and rugby have been by the private sector to the Olympic Games. taken over by corporate boxes and ya-yas. Very few real people get into them. It is not only a point about ticket prices because people from my area also have Q282 Mr MacNeil: Are the government in any way the issues of travelling in a way that people from seriously considering a system of transportation for exactly the same social background in London will people from maybe Penzance to London or from not have. Do you see that as being your Inverness? responsibility centrally to deal with or is that Mr Caborn: Not to the best of my knowledge. I something we ought to be addressing to the Scottish understand it has been raised with my colleague, Executive? Alistair Darling, but that sort of transport issue has Mr Caborn: Not necessarily the Scottish Executive, not been discussed inside the committees that are but we are setting up in each of the regions a full time involved in the Olympics. coordinator for all the areas we have been talking about and that is exploiting in terms of supply Q283 Mr MacNeil: Will the government assist? chains, tourism and all that, but this is an area that Mr Caborn: We will have to consult my colleagues ought to be given some consideration as well. If there in transport on it. We have not given consideration are demands there, it ought to be discussed at the to it yet. I can assure you we have not even set the Scottish level to quantify what the problem is and, if companies up. We have just been taking the necessary, to bring it back through the Nations and chairman and chief executives on from the Regions Committee. That is the one that will inform development agency and that has concentrated our the decision makers either on the board or the two minds, getting cables underground in the east end of others and that is the way that I would put it back London, not how we can get young people from the into the system. It will not just be a problem in north east of Scotland down to London. It is early Scotland. Travelling from the north west and the days. It can be raised through committees like this north east is equally expensive. and that is exactly what these select committees are all about. We will respond in the normal way we do Q279 Chairman: It is not only the problem to any select committee. of transportation; there is the problem of accommodation here as well. Q284 Mr MacNeil: The Olympic Delivery Authority Mr Caborn: Look at all the MPs’ flats then. will be accountable for all public money raised by the sale of lottery tickets spent on getting venues and Q280 Danny Alexander: The question of the cost of infrastructure ready on time and on budget. Can you transport is tremendously important. For people assure the Committee that the money will be coming from the Highlands and the Western Isles additional to any money which would be spent the costs of transport are enormously high. I anyway by the government? appreciate this is not perhaps something you have Mr Caborn: That will be given a clear budget when come to in this level of detail in your discussions but, it is set up. It is not set up at the moment. That will despite the fact that there are millions of tickets be defined by the Olympic Board. As you probably available at less than £20, the total cost of someone know, that went through the House of Commons going from Inverness to the Olympics to enjoy their last night and for the operation of that we are £10 seat at the Olympics is still going to be much probably looking at the first quarter of next year. I higher than it is for someone coming from am not quite sure what your question was on the Streatham. budget. 3208392010 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 70 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

7 December 2005 Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP and Mr Paul Oldfield

Q285 Mr MacNeil: Will the budget be extra to the answer in the timescale that you want us to for a money already committed? select committee—we might have to defer that until Mr Caborn: When we submitted our candidate file to LOCOG is up and running and then we can get the the IOC, in that was our budget. It is absolutely our information fed back. This is not going to be the last intention to keep that budget. When there were the hearing of the select committee. I assume there will first signs of any increases in costs, as we saw in the be an ongoing dialogue and we will make sure that aquatic centre, my Secretary of State moved very you are informed, hopefully in writing rather than swiftly indeed and said that they had to get back me having to come here, lovely as it is to come here. within budget. We believe we are putting some disciplines in place that will keep what we believe is a realistic budget on track and therefore we should Q289 Mr Davidson: I am also on the Public be able to deliver. You can never guarantee it. The Accounts Committee so I am sure we will see you fact that you cannot guarantee it is why we have the there about the Olympics in due course. On the MOU4 between the Mayor’s oYce and government question of football, can you bring us up to date with but we will find an arrangement if there is an overrun your understanding of the latest position about the for any of the Olympic budget. SFA’s refusal to let Scots participate? Mr Caborn: I am disappointed that the Scottish FA Q286 Mr McGovern: Danny mentioned transport took the decision they did but they have every right between the Western Isles and London. You to do that. I can understand their concerns but the mentioned Hampden Park. That is a venue for president of FIFA gave the clear assurance that if football. The issue of transport within Scotland they played as a GB for the Olympics that would not from, for example, Inverness to Glasgow to attend detract away from their ability to enter competitions football matches: would you envisage that being either at world or other levels. The door is open and subsidised or is that an issue for the Scottish will continue to be open. I hope that they will Executive? reconsider that. It will be a great tribute to GB if we Mr Caborn: That would not be from our resources. have the best team that we could select from GB. I That would be a decision of the Scottish Executive. have no doubt there will be some Scottish players in The only thing we have powers to do is, inside the the team. Olympic Bill, it covers all the facilities of the Olympics, whether in Scotland or Wales or Q290 Mr Davidson: What is your understanding as wherever. The Bill last night was covering all those to whether or not the SFA are within their legal areas on issues like the stadia and the logistics of rights in placing a ban on individual players? transportation. My view is it will not aVect Hampden Park that much because it is a well run Mr Caborn: As I understand it, the answer to that is stadium and it has all the transport links. yes. That is my understanding. That is the advice I have been given. What would happen if a player said, “I am going to play anyway and I am going to Q287 Mr Walker: Going back to people coming to make myself available for selection”? It is always this the Games and being part of them who otherwise issue you have when governments move in on an would not be, 65,000 to 70,000 volunteers—a lot of organisation to ban people. We saw that probably people have already put their name forward. Are most starkly in the Moscow Olympics. What do you you going to implement measures to ensure that do? What is the penalty? Do you say, “You will there is a broad spectrum of volunteers from across never play football again for a Scottish team”? I do the UK who are assisting and who will get not know what the ultimate sanction would be or accommodation, because I think that would be one whether they would carry that out. way of ensuring people who could not aVord to accommodate themselves down there get a chance to go through this voluntary network. Q291 Mr Davidson: I am not sure they have the Mr Caborn: On the volunteer side, that will be the power to apply the ultimate sanction in the sense of responsibility of LOCOG. They have not decided on topping people. Is there any discussion between a chief executive yet. I do not know whether we will yourselves and the SFA about this or have you just be announcing that in the near future or before left them to it? Christmas. We have just announced the chairman Mr Caborn: We have made our position known at and chief executive of the ODA. The chairman is Seb the Sports Cabinet meeting in CardiV. I am making Coe and the deputy chair is Keith Mills who was it known now to you as a select committee. In terms chief executive of 2012. Once LOCOG is up and of intervention at a political level from the UK, the running, these issues that you raise will become answer to that is no. It is a Scottish issue and it is a much clearer. matter for my political opposite number in Scotland.

Q288 Mr Walker: That is something on the select committee we should keep on top of. Q292 Mr Davidson: Do you think the SFA’s refusal Mr Caborn: If it goes as one of your to allow Scots to participate in the football recommendations and an area that you want some tournament, except under their own terms, is helpful answers on, we would do that. Whether we can to Scotland’s case for recruiting, training camps and other establishments, getting subcontracts and 4 Memorandum of Understanding everything else for Scotland? 3208392010 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 71

7 December 2005 Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP and Mr Paul Oldfield

Mr Caborn: I would not have thought it would Mr Caborn: Team GB. detract really in that sense. It would be more negative than positive. How negative? I think it Q298 Mr MacNeil: Is the team misnamed? would be very marginal. Mr Oldfield: The oYcial term is Team GB and we have some which say “and Northern Ireland” but Northern Ireland athletes compete as part of Team Q293 Mr MacNeil: One of the great things about the GB. Olympics is the coming together of nations. Could it be a position you might adopt? Incidentally, there Q299 Chairman: You will have heard about the will be a GB and a UK team but would it not be C-ScOT campaign for a separate Scottish Olympic something that might be worthwhile lobbying the team. What is HM government’s view on the matter? IOC about, trying to get four teams, Northern Mr Caborn: I think it is flying in the wind. It Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland to be is something we do not accept. If you talk to competing and make the competition more healthy the athletes there are competitions like the as a result? Commonwealth but, if you are talking about the Mr Caborn: No. The ultimate responsibility for that ultimate in sport which is the Olympics and if you is the IOC. The franchise for the five rings here is are looking for GB, I believe we are more likely to Team GB. get more medals and a better return by Team GB than we would by breaking that up. Q294 Mr MacNeil: Team GB would mean Q300 Mr Davidson: It has been suggested that if Northern Ireland? Scotland do not get their own team, such is their Mr Caborn: Yes. That is Great Britain. The antipathy towards the UK team, they would much franchises for that are given by the IOC. It is not a rather be part of a Europe team. What do you think government decision. That is a similar position that of the ludicrous suggestion of an EU team? we had with FIFA and the football but we have been Mr Caborn: You did talk about a European team able to say to FIFA that this would not detract away and then you said an EU team. I am not quite sure from them playing in the various competitions that what you mean. FIFA run as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, if they play in the GB team. In terms of the franchise Q301 Mr Davidson: I think the suggestion was an for the Olympics, it is GB. EU team. Mr Caborn: That would be a non-starter. Q295 Mr MacNeil: As Olympic hosts we are in a special position. Do you not think you could have Q302 Mr MacNeil: What would that do to the the opportunity to lobby the IOC and for the medals table? London Olympics to go for the approach of having Mr Caborn: You may well go up, I would have more teams and more competition? thought, but I suppose if you continue to go on a Mr Caborn: No. Between the four nations there is regionalisation of that, which it would be, it would plenty of competition. The fact that we are trying to not be the Olympics that we were talking about, get on the medals table would detract away from nation competing against nation, would it? that, in my view, because some of the quality teams we have are a mixture of the devolveds and the Q303 Mr MacNeil: Exactly. regions of this country. We have a very strong team. Mr Caborn: It is okay for a debate in the Oxford We have teams with Scots, English and Welsh. If you Debating Society but it is a non-starter. It is totally against the charter. It is nation competing against started splitting them, you would get fewer medals nation, not regions competing against regions of rather than more. If the medals table is a measure of the world. success, your suggestion would put us down the medals table, not up it. Q304 Mr MacNeil: Scotland of course is a nation. Mr Caborn: It is a nation and there are many that Q296 Mr MacNeil: When the Soviet Union became come together to compete in the Olympics. 50 nations as opposed to one, the aggregate went up the medals table. If you had maybe four teams you Q305 Mr Walker: For the record, it is a damned fine might go up the medals table. nation, by the way. There has to be an advantage Mr Caborn: It would be a somewhat diVerent for a Scotland bid, a Glasgow bid, for the analogy to draw between coming out of Commonwealth Games by London hosting the Communism and creating teams coming out Olympics. What level of support do you see LOCOG of devolved administrations in the United Kingdom. and these various organisations being able to give a I would not accept the rationale for that argument, Scotland bid for the Commonwealth Games to take if I may say so. place two years afterwards, because that really would be of benefit to Scotland and to this country, I would have thought. Q297 Mr Walker: What does Northern Ireland Mr Caborn: We had the Sports Cabinet meeting in compete under? Do they compete under an Irish flag CardiV a few weeks ago. Seb Coe was there giving an or would they compete under the GB team? update on the Olympics. We have made ourselves 3208392010 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 72 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

7 December 2005 Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP and Mr Paul Oldfield available and all the organisation we have put into tourism would be if, today, you were able to agree winning the Olympics is a skill set that is unique. It that Ibrox should get the regional casino that is is totally diVerent to running or delivering the being discussed by the Department? Games. We stand ready to help in any of the areas Mr Caborn: I have come to answer questions on the they want. The Commonwealth were very important Olympics and not my responsibility for gambling. to us in winning the Olympic bid. We were the only The government wanted eight large, eight small and Commonwealth country that competed for the eight regional casinos. The Conservative Party Olympics. That is why Nelson Mandela was very decided that they would not allow the Bill unless we supportive of the London bid and that is why our had one regional, eight large and eight small, but our very good friend, Sam Ramsamy, the IOC member position is still eight. We will only go back if there is of South Africa, was very helpful as indeed were our a demand for that across the political spectrum and colleagues were in Canada, Australia, New Zealand indeed local authorities as well. and India. Raja Singh in India was of absolutely first Mr Davidson: In the new spirit of consensus, there class assistance to us. The Commonwealth helped us may very well be an agreement that you might want immensely in winning the Olympic bid and a lot of to accept. In those circumstances I am sure you those connections we have made know the facilities would accept that having one in Ibrox in time for the we have here will only stand Scotland in good stead. Olympics would be helpful. Q308 Chairman: Could I thank the Minister and Mr Q306 Mr Walker: Could it weaken Scotland’s Oldfield for their attendance this afternoon? Before position? “Come on, you guys. You have just had I declare the meeting closed, do you wish to say the Olympics. We supported you. It is now South anything in conclusion? Africa’s turn” or one of the other Commonwealth Mr Caborn: I will write to you on the points my countries’ turns? oYcials have taken down, on the statistics and that. Mr Caborn: I do not see it like that in terms of the We will keep your Committee informed. It is very Commonwealth. It will be a fair competition and the important that we keep this dialogue open, judgment that the Commonwealth Committee particularly over the next year or 18 months because takes. From what I have seen of the Scottish bid to a lot will be set in train that could be important both date, it is a good bid. for the running of the Olympics but also to make sure that every part of the United Kingdom gets advantage out of the Olympics. If we all work in Q307 Mr Davidson: One of the issues we have been partnership I am sure that we can realise that exploring with a variety of people is the gains to potential. Scotland from tourism. In terms of your own Chairman: Your evidence certainly will be very responsibilities, would you agree that one of the helpful when we compile the report. Thank you things that would help Scotland gain more from very much.

Supplementary memorandum submitted by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport I promised to provide your Committee with further information following my appearance at the oral evidence session on The Potential Benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics on 7 December. Please accept my apologies for the slight delay. You will recall that I agreed to find out what percentage of registered volunteers for the 2012 Games live in Scotland (Q257). I can confirm that, as at 19 December 2005, approximately 77,500 people had registered an interest in becoming volunteers for the 2012 Games. 1,023 of these people, or 1.32%, reside in Scotland. At Annex A, I have segmented these Scottish registrations by local authority, gender, ethnic diversity, age and disability. I do hope that this is helpful. In addition, I agreed to advise the Committee as to how much the UK Government makes available for sport in Scotland (Q263). You may be aware that sport is a devolved matter and is therefore the responsibility of Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Executive. However, UK Sport, a body funded by my Department and the National Lottery, supports Scottish Olympic and Paralympic athletes through its World Class Performance Programme (WCPP). UK Sport is currently supporting a total of 434 British Olympic and Paralympic athletes through WCPP. Thirty-four of these athletes, or 7.83%, are Scottish. As you can imagine, it is rather diYcult to extrapolate the total amount of money that is spent on Scottish athletes through this Programme. Much of the support that Scottish athletes receive from WCPP will come through the National Governing Bodies, which provide a range of services for all of their athletes and will not cost them based on home country nationality. I do hope that this information is helpful to your inquiry. Rt Hon Richard Caborn MP Minister for Sport 18 January 2006 3208392011 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 73

Annex A

VOLUNTEER TO WIN REGISTRATIONS REPORT (SCOTLAND)—19 DECEMBER 2005 Registrations as at 19 December 2005. Segmented by Scottish local authority, gender, ethnic diversity, age, disability.

SCOTTISH LOCAL AUTHORITY Total

City of Edinburgh 209 City of Glasgow 80 Aberdeenshire 70 Fife 60 Aberdeen City 43 Perth & Kinross 39 Highland 37 Falkirk 36 Stirling 35 South Lanarkshire 33 Scottish Borders 33 North Lanarkshire 32 East Dunbartonshire 28 West Lothian 28 Dundee City 27 Dumfries & Galloway 24 Argyll & Bute 23 Angus 22 Renfrewshire 21 South Ayrshire 19 East Renfrewshire 19 East Lothian 18 North Ayrshire 16 East Ayrshire 13 Moray 12 Inverclyde 12 Clackmannanshire 9 Midlothian 8 West Dunbartonshire 7 Orkney Islands 4 Eilean Siar 3 Shetland Islands 3 total: 1,023

1.32% of registrations live in Scotland

GENDER Total

F 498 M 473 Not Specified 52 total: 1,023

ETHNIC DIVERSITY Total

White British (Scottish) 484 White British 312 White British (English) 84 Other White background 20 Not Specified 67 White Irish 10 Indian 9 White British (Welsh) 7 Other Mixed Background 5 Pakistani 4 Chinese 4 White and Asian 3 Other Asian background 3 3208392011 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Ev 74 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

ETHNIC DIVERSITY Total

Black African 3 White and Black Caribbean 3 Any Other background 2 Black Caribbean 2 Bangladeshi 1 total: 1,023

AGE Total

18–24 250 25–34 245 35–44 188 Under 18 168 45–54 116 55–64 40 Not Specified 12 65–74 4 total: 1,023

DISABILITY Total

N 963 Not Specified 36 Y24 total: 1,023

Letter from the Chairman to the Secretary of State for Scotland

The Potential Benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics As you will know, the Scottish AVairs Committee is currently conducting an inquiry into The Potential Benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics. We have already taken evidence from the British Olympic Association (BOA), the London Organising Committee for the Olympic Games (LOCOG) and COSLA. Further evidence sessions will be held with sportscotland and EventScotland, Scottish Enterprise, Richard Caborn and Patricia Ferguson. I am writing on behalf of the Committee as, during our evidence session with the BOA and LOCOG, one particular area of concern came up and colleagues have, therefore, instructed me to raise this issue with you. Charles Walker asked Mike Lee of LOCOG: “. . . how are we going to stop this from becoming a jamboree for the rich, famous and powerful? . . . What about Ian’s working class kids, how are they going to get to the Olympic facilities? Who is going to pay for their travel? Who is going to pay for their tickets? . . . This is very important, this is the country’s Olympics, it is not just for the rich but for those who would otherwise have no chance of getting near a venue or this wonderful celebration of sport.” Mr Lee’s response was: “I think the primary focus for us has been on ticket pricing. In fact, of all the five bidding cities that competed for 2012 we have the best and fairest set of ticket proposals, and that means the majority of the tickets are under £30 . . . Also, every ticket with it will have free travel across London. So an investment in a ticket gives you a right to public transport across London for whatever the ticket applies to on the particular day. Are we saying there is a commitment at the moment to provide travel subsidies directly from the LOCOG across the UK, the answer is no. Will there be rail companies, bus companies and all sorts of other people interested in being engaged and driving traYc and driving business, in providing those sorts of discounted fares, I think absolutely . . . It will not be a Games—and Seb Coe has made this absolutely clear—for the rich and famous . . . Our intention . . . is . . . this is a Games for the whole of the nation of this country. I then asked: “Is there any provision—obviously there are children and families who will not be able to aVord to buy a ticket—to subsidise those families . . .?” The reply to which was: “We are not allowed under the terms of the agreement with the IOC to directly provide subsidised tickets. What we can do, and it is something we have discussed, for example with the GLA, is work with them where they are able to buy certain allocations that they can use in their own communities. We are not saying that we will provide large numbers of individually subsidised tickets but we can work with local authorities and other partners to provide them with an allocation that they can use in their own area.” 3208392011 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:43:14 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG3

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 75

The Committee accepts that BOA and LOCOG are limited in their ability to oVer assistance, and therefore wishes to ascertain what the Government will be doing to ensure people from disadvantaged areas are not further disadvantaged by being “priced out of the market” as they are unable to aVord tickets for the Games. Of course, the Committee has a particular interest in Scotland, but the principle is the same for wherever those disadvantaged areas are—be they, for example, in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast, Wrexham or Manchester. Will poorer families be assisted by there being subsidised tickets available? It is not, of course, simply the question of the tickets themselves. What will the Government do to help disadvantaged families travel down from Scotland to London. Will there be subsidised accommodation available? Will there be special trains or coaches laid on? Even within Scotland, will there, for example, be special low price transport between, say, Dundee and Hampden Park? It is, of course, particularly helpful that this latter point falls within both your remit as Secretary of State for Scotland and Secretary of State for Transport. It would be invaluable to have your views on this issue before we take evidence from Richard Caborn on 7 December. I am sending a copy of this letter to Richard, so that he is aware of our interest. Mohammad Sarwar MP 17 November 2005 3208392012 Page Type [SE] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Ev 76 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

Tuesday 13 December 2005

Members present:

Mr Mohammad Sarwar, in the Chair

Danny Alexander David Mundell Mr John MacDougall

Memorandum submitted to the Scottish AVairs Committee by the Scottish Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport

Introduction 1. The decision to award London the Olympic Games for 2012 is the result of a tremendous amount of work by the Bid Team. They are all to be congratulated. Scottish Ministers strongly supported the bid from the outset: the Games will provide a significant boost to sport in all parts of the UK and will provide added inspiration to Scotland’s athletes to compete and succeed on the Olympic stage. This is a once in a life time opportunity. 2. The promotional document, “Scotland backs the Bid”, reinforces Scotland’s full backing for the London Games. It sets out the main areas where Scotland can benefit from a London Olympics. In addition, there are important synergies between London 2012 and Glasgow’s bid to host the Commonwealth Games in 2014.

The Benefits to Scotland from the London 2012 Olympic Games 3. Scottish Ministers will work with UK Ministers to maximise the benefits of the Olympics for the whole of the UK. The work which the Bid Team carried out in the run up to the announcement on 6 July had a positive influence in Scotland on public, political and media support for a London Games. It is hoped that the constructive working relations developed in the bid phase will be continued during the implementation phase and the run up to 2012. The potential benefits to Scotland come in six distinct categories: — Sporting success. — Venues and training camps. — Volunteers. — Business and investment. — Tourism strategy. — Cultural events. 4. Each of these is discussed below.

Sporting success 5. Scotland does not have the infrastructure to host a future Olympic Games. Therefore, a London Games will provide Scottish athletes with their best opportunity to compete on home soil as part of Team GB. Evidence from previous Olympics shows that athletes perform better when competing in front of a home crowd. The London 2012 Games provides a powerful motivator for Scottish athletes which will hopefully lead to improved results. 6. Sporting success is not solely defined by the performance of elite athletes. Sport 21 (Scotland’s strategy for sport) has set a target of 20% of adult Scots taking part in sport once a week by 2020. The London Olympics and the Commonwealth Games bid provide opportunities to put sport in the forefront of public consciousness. The Games can be used to drive participation across communities but the events by themselves are not suYcient to raise participation in a sustained way. The Scottish Executive, together with sportscotland and other partners such as governing bodies and the local authorities, will build on current strategies (such as Active Schools) to raise participation and ensure that the London Games provide a lasting legacy in our communities.

Venues and Training Camps 7. One of the most tangible impacts on Scotland of London 2012 will be on venues. Whilst no new facilities will be built specifically for these Games, the Scottish Executive and sportscotland have already embarked on the National and Regional Sports Facilities Strategy to ensure that Scotland has a network of high quality sports facilities for use by elite athletes and the wider community. Approximately 3208392012 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 77

£230 million will be invested in the strategy and most facilities should be complete by 2009. The investment in National and Regional Sports Facilities across Scotland will mean that Scotland will be well-placed to host training camps in the run up to 2012, both for GB athletes but also for athletes from other countries. 8. Scotland’s national football stadium, Hampden Park, will host the first event of London 2012, one of the group football matches. Scotland will also host a quarter final in the Olympic football tournament. Such high profile events provide the opportunity to showcase Scotland’s venues and Scotland’s ability to hold high quality events.

Volunteers 9. In 2002 over 10,000 enthusiastic and knowledgeable volunteers participated in the Manchester Commonwealth Games. Over 250,000 people have already registered as potential volunteers for London 2012 and it is estimated that at this stage there will be a requirement for 70,000 volunteers to support the Games. 10. Many of these potential volunteers will be Scottish and the Scottish Executive will work with existing volunteering organisations in Scotland to maximise the number of Scots involved in the Games. There will be a major role for diVerent organisations to play in training volunteers which is consistent with the Scottish Executive’s overall policy on volunteers and volunteering. After the Games, volunteers will be able to bring to Scotland important experience of running a world class event.

Business and Investment 11. There are a number of ways in which Scottish business can benefit from London 2012, for example: — Opportunities in construction for the Games facilities and Village. — Provision of services at Games venues such as catering, security, cleaning, and maintenance. — The supply of equipment such as seating, temporary buildings and lighting. — Clothing such as Games uniforms and merchandise. — The supply of food to Games catering contractors and concession holders. 12. Two Scottish based companies are already benefiting from the Bid: Navyblue Design Group, won the tender to design London 2012’s bid document, and HiFli Banners and Flags were involved in the manufacturing of London 2012’s promotional and branding material.

Tourism Strategy 13. At the 2000 Games, Price Waterhouse Coopers estimate that Sydney generated £0.7 billion of international publicity for Australia, and over £2.6 billion in spending helped by an additional 1.6 million visitors between 1997 and 2001. It would be hoped that the UK would reap a similar benefit, and Scotland would take a share of the increased numbers. The Scottish Executive and VisitScotland will be working to ensure that Scotland is geared up to take full advantage of London 2012. Visitors to London often see Edinburgh as the next stop on a UK tour and we need to ensure that this is maximised in the run up to London and beyond. We also need to use the opportunity of the London Olympics to package the whole of Scotland as tourism destination and not simply the traditional tourist destinations.

Cultural Events 14. An essential aspect of any Olympics is the celebration of national art and culture. The 2012 Games will be an opportunity to highlight the unique role and contribution of Scots and Scotland to the heritage and cultural life of the UK. It is intended that Scottish artists from a wide range of interests and disciplines will feature in the planned cultural Olympiad in the run up to the Games. 15. Through Scotland’s cultural agencies, the Scottish Executive will lend its full support to the cultural activities which would be part of the staging of the Games to improve knowledge and understanding around the world of the UK, including Scotland, its people and its cultural diversity. And Scotland should seize the opportunity to absorb other cultures—and to make new friends around the world.

Legacy Issues 16. One of the strengths of the London bid, recognised by the International Olympic Committee, was its focus and commitment to a lasting legacy from the London 2012 Games. This legacy should be equally applicable in Scotland as it is in London and the south east of England. A brief discussion of the potential long term benefits of London 2012 is given below. 3208392012 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Ev 78 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

Infrastructure Legacy 17. The improvement to facilities has already been discussed. Though not being done as a result of London securing the right to stage these Games, such improvements will be long lasting and serve future generations across many communities. In addition to physical infrastructure, there are also the long term benefits to those involved in delivering sport. Governing bodies are already considering how they can best organise themselves to contribute to a successful Olympics in London and these changes are likely to have lasting impact across Scotland including the UK. 18. Perhaps the most important part of the sporting infrastructure is the people: from the full-time paid coaches, working with elite athletes to the part-time volunteer coaches working at grass roots level. As we gear up to London 2012 (and hopefully Glasgow 2014), we will need to work closely with coaches in Scotland to ensure that they receive the support they require. Again, the potential benefits from a strengthened coaching force will last for generations to come.

Intellectual Legacy 19. Hosting a major event such as the Olympic Games requires vision, precise project planning and adaptability. London 2012 brings a unique opportunity to learn first hand the skills that are required to stage an event which will be watched, analysed and scrutinised the world over. Bringing such learning back to Scotland is important in its own right, but Glasgow’s bid to host the Commonwealth Games means that it is vital that this learning opportunity is seized.

Community Legacy 20. It has long been recognised that sport can have a positive influence on community development. In Scotland we have seen how initiatives such as Midnight Basketball and Twilight Football have had a dramatic eVect on communities, in particular the young people that live within them. We need to use the opportunity presented by London 2012 and Glasgow’s bid for the Commonwealth Games to use sport as a positive catalyst for social change. As noted above, we need to build on existing initiatives to ensure that the benefits of London 2012 are felt across Scotland and across all communities.

Link with Commonwealth Games 2014

21. All of the issues raised in this paper are equally applicable to the Commonwealth Games. The synergies between London 2012 and Glasgow 2014 will be enormously valuable to Glasgow’s bid and we will be looking to capitalise on them as far as possible.

Next Steps

22. A new team within the Scottish Executive will be established shortly to co-ordinate work on London 2012 and the Commonwealth Games bid. An immediate task is to ensure that a Sewell Motion is passed in the Scottish Parliament in relation to the London Olympics Bill which is currently passing through the House of Commons. The new team will also look to establish good links with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport and other key players involved in delivering London 2012. 23. The Nations and Regions Committee for London 2012 is to be re-established. It is vital that Scotland is well-represented on this group and I am very pleased that Julia Bracewell, Chair of sportscotland, and David Williams, Chief Executive of EventScotland, have agreed to sit on this group. To ensure that planning is co-ordinated across Scotland, “Scotland’s Co-ordination Group” (initially established in the bid phase) will be reformed. I am delighted that Julia Bracewell has agreed to chair this group which will play the lead role in ensuring the benefits listed above are delivered in Scotland. 24. London 2012 presents an enormous opportunity. A generation of Scots are now dreaming of competing for Team GB in the 2012 Games. But, the eVects of London 2012 have the potential to go much further than those competing. I am determined that we should maximise these benefits and bring London 2012 to as many Scots as possible. Patricia Ferguson 3 October 2005 3208392013 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 79

Witnesses: Ms Patricia Ferguson, Member of the Scottish Parliament, Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport and Mr Ian Campbell, Sports Division, the Scottish Executive, gave evidence.

Q309 Chairman: Good afternoon, Minister, and Mr Ms Ferguson: No, I do not. Campbell, I would like to welcome you to this meeting of the Scottish AVairs Select Committee. As Q312 Chairman: You are satisfied with the result. you know, we are conducting an inquiry into the Ms Ferguson: It would have been great if we had potential benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics. been able to have other events in Scotland, but I Before we start on detailed questions, would you like think we have to accept the situation as it applies and to make an opening statement? work to achieve maximum outcome from that Ms Ferguson: Very briefly, if I may. I would like to particular situation; that is exactly what we are thank you and the Committee, Chairman, for giving doing. me the opportunity to come along today and to discuss with you the potential benefits that we see for Q313 Chairman: Do you think the Scottish Scotland as a result of London being selected to host Executive could have done more to try and get the the Olympic and Paralympics Games in 2012. It is sailing events taking place in Scotland, for example clear that the success of this provides a great in Largs, rather than in Weymouth? opportunity for Scotland and the UK as a whole and Ms Ferguson: Again, I think that goes back to the I hope that we will be able to learn from the London original premise of the Olympic Committee that you 2012 bid and take the experience of that team expect to have as many as possible of the events forward as we develop our bid to have Glasgow host centred around in a cluster; they see that as being a the 2014 Commonwealth Games. Obviously it is huge advantage and that is why they ask one city to very early in the planning process, but Scotland is bid and not a conglomerate of cities. I think in the already working very closely with LOCOG as it circumstances the fact that we have football at prepares to deliver, hopefully, a successful Games. Hampden, and the fact that we may well actually We have membership of the Nations and Regions have the opening event of the Games in Scotland is Committee, as I am sure you are aware, and Julia a big plus. Bracewell who chairs sportscotland sits there as Scotland’s representative. We have also invited Julia Q314 Mr MacDougall: As it seems unlikely now that to chair the London 2012 Scottish Steering Group it will be possible to attract any additional events to where there will be representatives from across Scotland, I suppose it allows us to focus more on the Scotland, including Scottish Enterprise, training camp situation. How will the Scottish VisitScotland, EventScotland, the voluntary sector Executive go about trying to promote Scotland’s and business and this group will hopefully work potential to maximise the prospect of training camps towards maximising the benefits that Scotland can coming to Scotland, especially with overseas achieve through the 2012 Games. I know you have Olympic Associations? Is there a strategy that the already had an opportunity to hear directly from Scottish Executive have in place to actually tackle Julia and David Williams of EventScotland, as well these opportunities? as other representatives from Scottish Enterprise, Ms Ferguson: The London 2012 Committee has but I am very happy to answer any questions to made it very clear that they want to co-ordinate the supplement the information provided in my opportunity, if you like, or the list of places that will memorandum to the Committee. go forward as possible hosts for training and holding camps. They want it to be very clear to Olympic Associations around the world that this is their list, Q310 Chairman: Thank you. We appreciate that that these are the destinations that people should there are limitations on where events could be held choose their holding and training camps from, so we during the 2012 Games, but as Scotland’s Minister are working to make sure that the Scottish elements for Tourism, Culture and Sport were you of that are fed in and that we are given the maximum disappointed that Scotland only secured two opportunity to shine, if you like, and to be regarded football matches at Hampden Park? as good venues for various events. We are doing that Ms Ferguson: I think securing two football matches and obviously informal opportunities to push this is a plus. We know that the rules of the IOC dictate forward a little bit more will be taken whenever they that most of the venues have to be within a relatively arise, but we will do that too in the context of the fact short distance of the main host, so I think having that we see a potential there for many areas of some of the events in Hampden Park as they will be Scotland to host holding and training camps too if is a plus for us, but we also know that there are many we are successful in the Commonwealth Games bid, other opportunities around training camps etc so we see the two things as very much working in where there will be opportunities perhaps for people tandem really. to see sportsmen and women in their own locality, their own areas. We hope that there will be some Q315 Mr MacDougall: Do you think there is a very positive benefits to Scotland from that. possibility that the First Secretary for Scottish AVairs in the British Embassy in Washington would have a potential use to try and promote the prospects Q311 Chairman: I can understand that there is of of overseas interests in Scotland? course a positive development in that there will be Ms Ferguson: I think most of our opportunity will two matches staged, but do you not think that we arise from being part of a strong campaign or from could have achieved more? strong bids being put into the London 2012 3208392013 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Ev 80 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

13 December 2005 Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP and Mr Ian Campbell

Committee which will actually produce the but I also think that we were very conscious from information about where the possible training and day one of the opportunities that were there, so we holding camps are, but we will use every opportunity have been very careful to work out where those that we have, whether it be through our benefits might be and to try to maximise the representatives in Washington or in Beijing for that opportunities. We know, for example, that two matter, to make sure that we have every opportunity Scottish companies gained very large contracts from to have as much activity in Scotland as we can. the work they did in the bid preparation and we think there are major opportunities there for Q316 Mr MacDougall: Who do you believe should Scottish businesses and Scottish companies. Of take the actual lead in trying to attract people to set course, it is still relatively early days and contracts up training camps in Scotland, should it be, for have not begun to be let, but we have been taking the example, the Government, local authorities, sports experience of what happened, for example in bodies or yourselves for that matter? Who do you Australia, where there were really concerted eVorts think should be the leading force on that? made to attract work and to attract contracts in Ms Ferguson: It will in eVect be the London 2012 particular parts of the country, and we are looking Committee, but what we want to do is to make sure at those opportunities to make sure that we do that the information we are providing them with is maximise that. I think the fact that we have had our co-ordinated and that the attractions that Scotland steering committee up and running since the bid was has to oVer are identified and given as much good still a bid is a signal of our intent to make sure that publicity and as much good backing as they possibly we do maximise those opportunities. can. We are looking very much to do that and that is one of the reasons why we have set up the steering group with Julia Bracewell as the chair, to make sure Q318 Danny Alexander: When you talk about that that can be done. maximising the opportunities, do you have a target Mr MacDougall: Thank you very much. or an idea in mind of what would constitute maximising those opportunities and what would be as it were a missed opportunity? In other words, do Q317 Danny Alexander: Minister, it has been you have targets in mind and if you have not got interesting for me to listen to the evidence we have targets in mind yet are you intending to set targets V had from a variety of di erent organisations over the for what would constitute maximising the past few weeks, and what has struck me is that there opportunities? If you are, what is the timescale for V have been a lot of good intentions from the di erent doing that, so that not just this Committee but also agencies, whether it is Scottish Enterprise, how to the people of Scotland can be clear about what it is, get the business end of it sorted out, EventScotland in concrete terms, that you are actually seeking to or whatever, but that when we asked questions on achieve to maximise the potential benefits of the the specifics, what was the target for how much Olympics. business would it attract to Scotland, what was the Ms Ferguson: Some of the things that we hope to target for how many Scottish firms ought to get maximise the benefits of are probably not construction contracts and so on, the answers have quantifiable, they are about softer issues, they are been quite unspecific and it seems to me that moving about raising the confidence level, encouraging from those good intentions to actually securing the participation, and while some of those can be maximum amount of benefit to Scotland, is going to require a great deal of political leadership. I would measured—obviously the amount of business that be interested, therefore, if you could tell us how high came to Scotland could be measured and that would up your priority list this is, because ultimately if this be important—at this time the opportunities are not is going to succeed, whatever committees we have— yet there because the contracts have not yet begun to and Julia Bracewell has been very eVective— be let, but we need to make sure that Scottish ultimately unless there is the political leadership we businesses, Scottish companies on the business side are not going to do as well out of this as we could do. of it are best placed to be able to maximise those Ms Ferguson: It is good to see that we intend to get opportunities, and I think the examples of Navyblue the maximum benefit from the opportunity aVorded Design and HiFli tell us that Scottish companies are to us by the Games, be that a business point of view up there with the best. Where that is the case they or be that a sporting point of view or just in terms of should start with a level playing field and should be raising the confidence level of the people of able to win business, but I do not think at the Scotland. We intend to maximise the use that we can moment it is the right time to have those kinds of make of that particular Olympics. I think though targets because I think we really need to be clear that what we need to do is be very much part of what about exactly what the opportunities are going to be London 2012 is doing, and that is why it is very before we can really begin to make sure that important for us to be part of the Nations and companies move in. We do know that Scottish Regions Committee and to play a leading role there. Enterprise is doing a lot of work to make sure that Julia Bracewell is well placed to do that, to make companies are geared up to be able to bid and to be sure that we are taking forward Scotland’s case at able to bid competitively for those contracts when every opportunity. I think the fact that we worked they come down the line. So it is something that we very hard with the Olympic Committee in the run-up are paying a great deal of attention to and it is to the bid means that we are regarded very much as something that is a priority for us, but I do not think key partners in the delivery of what happens in 2012, at this time it would be right to put targets on it. 3208392013 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 81

13 December 2005 Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP and Mr Ian Campbell

Q319 Danny Alexander: One of the issues you Q320 Chairman: Minister, 41% is a huge diVerence mentioned was participation rates in sport. When in the participation rate. Do you have any targets COSLA came to give evidence to us they pointed out that the Scottish Executive has set where you will that in some areas of Scotland participation rates bridge this gap so that this diVerence will be still remain very low and there is roughly a 41% lowered? diVerence between areas with the highest and lowest Ms Ferguson: Sport 21 has a huge range of targets, participation. How are you as Minister working in some of which are about the number of medals we alliance with local authorities, sportscotland and so achieve and some of which are about the number of on to encourage young people to take up and people who are active full stop. If the Committee participate in sport and how do you think the would like I can give you a full list of those by Olympics in 2012 is going to help you in that correspondence, but we do have those kinds of objective? targets and we are working very hard to try and Ms Ferguson: We some years ago set up a strategy make sure that we realise them.1 called Sport 21 which involves ourselves and a number of our partners—COSLA, sportscotland, Q321 Chairman: Do you have any statistics for EventScotland, local authorities individually and ethnic minority communities and what is their other organisations around Scotland—to try to participation rate in sport in Scotland? make sure that in partnership we did the best that we Ms Ferguson: I am not aware that we do but we are could to try and raise participation rates across the very conscious—and it is something that we have board, but obviously young people are a particular been discussing very recently—that we tend concern because habits that are embedded when sometimes more to have a focus on some of the they are young tend to very much be reflected in the ethnic communities that we probably should not activity levels you have when you are older. So that have, particularly as there is now evidence coming is our strategy through to 2020 and it is one that we through that there is a particular problem of heart pursue all the time and review constantly, and it is disease and diabetes, for example. Some of the one that I just reviewed recently with a view to research Glasgow University has been doing would changing the structure slightly to try and focus it indicate that that becomes more of a problem when more on the areas that we need to focus on. So we people from Asia, particularly, come to live in are paying a great deal of attention to that area and Scotland and we think that by taking very, very it is one that is very important to us. I also see it as small targeted measures it might be possible to being about more than just sport though, because it actually make a big impact on those kind of is about activity. For many young women, for numbers. It is a piece of work that is at a relatively example, sport is not their favoured option when it early stage and one that I only learned about less comes to activities, but dance or yoga or aerobics than a week ago, but which I intend to pursue with may well be, so it is very important that we do not V Glasgow University because it is very interesting and cut those opportunities o . We see those very much quite worrying statistic, and one where we want to as being part of the activity targets, so we work very, see whether or not we can actually make a direct very closely both with my colleague who is the contribution to eradicating if we can, certainly Education Minister and obviously too my health reduce it. colleague to try to make sure that we have as cross- cutting an agenda as possible. A good example of that is our Active Schools programme where we now Q322 Chairman: I have met in the last couple of have some 627 co-ordinators across Scotland who weeks a number of young Asian people and I was will make sure within their remit that activity levels shocked when they told me that sometimes they are increasing, in particular areas that they are cannot even aVord to buy a football or other charged to work in. It is a relatively new scheme, but equipment which you can buy for a relatively cheap where it has begun and where it has been monitored price and sometimes they do not have the money to it is actually having the kind of impact that we want pay for the pitch. They also tell me is that the it to have across Scotland. As far as the Olympics are participation rate among the ethnic minority concerned, you can look at sport very much as a community is almost nominal. pyramid—you need to get lots of people in at the Ms Ferguson: That is obviously very worrying. I bottom in order to get the elite, small number out at think it is worth bearing in mind that we work in the top, and that is one of the reasons, but not by any partnership with our local authority colleagues and means necessarily the most important reason, why you know from your own area, Chairman, that in we need to get more people involved in sport and Glasgow there are opportunities through the sports activity in Scotland. I do think that having the facilities programme that they have for young Games on home soil and also having a number of people to access free swimming, for example, and I Scots and UK athletes competing is very, very know too that as part of their latest cultural strategy important. You see the kind of impact that they are looking to enter other areas as well. So we somebody like Andy Murray had, encouraging do need to work with our colleagues in local young people to go out and play tennis. That kind of government and with sportscotland to make sure eVect I think is invaluable, it is one that you really that there are opportunities, but there are some cannot put a price on and one that is really what the really very, very good schemes going on where those Olympics are about, it is about inspiring young partnerships happen. Again, I was talking earlier to people—and others hopefully—to go out and try something that maybe they have not before. 1 See Ev 87 3208392013 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Ev 82 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

13 December 2005 Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP and Mr Ian Campbell

Mr Alexander about the cross-cutting nature of Ms Ferguson: Indeed. If you are coming from what we do and we also are looking for another country and you want to set up a training opportunities through, for example, the justice camp, you want to go somewhere where you expect portfolio to maximise the opportunity there because to have a friendly welcome, so it is very important we know that young people who are engaged in that we have the right attitude towards these Games, activity and sport are less likely to be engaged in and that is something that we will work hard to other activities that none of us would want to see make sure is still there by 2014. them engaged in. So we see that as being very important and I have certainly seen for myself in the Q325 David Mundell: Can I ask you about whether south side of Glasgow projects where some 200 the Scottish Executive is proposing any form of young men on a Friday evening take part in football audit in respect of the contractual, particularly leagues on a very regular basis. Those work very, construction, capacity within Scotland during the very well and there is support there from both the lead-up to the Games, because as I am sure you will justice portfolio to strengthen money for particular confirm to us, the Scottish Executive does have a projects but also from the city council. So those very large scale construction programme with the kinds of partnerships work very well and we have to M74 northern extension, the Borders rail link, there maximise those opportunities; it does not happen are a number of private projects such as the enough and we have to look for more opportunities redevelopment of Ravenscraig, and one of the issues to do that. which has come up in previous evidence sessions is a concern over whether Scotland combining with the Q323 David Mundell: Minister, I previously rest of the United Kingdom in the build-up to the indicated to you and I am very happy to say on the Olympics will actually have the construction record what a good job you have done in promoting capacity to allow these business as usual projects to public opinion in favour of Scotland, and I think carry on whilst the Olympic development is going that was very helpful to the London bid, but as we ahead. have seen in this Committee and elsewhere there are Ms Ferguson: If I am not mistaken I think Scottish still a group of people in Scotland who want to take Enterprise are doing some work on that area at the every opportunity to whinge about the fact that the moment. I would have to obviously confirm that Olympics are being held in London and that this will with them but I believe they actually are. I know it is somehow disadvantage Scotland. I want to ask you an area they have been looking at for some time now firstly how you currently assess Scottish public because obviously with the passing of the housing opinion towards the London Olympics and, stock in Glasgow to the GHE there was a concern about that very matter there, so it is something I secondly, how do you see the management of that think that they have been looking to address and whinging element? certainly with the number of modern apprentices Ms Ferguson: I am not sure I want to take that are around at the moment, across all skill bases, responsibility for managing the whinging elements I suspect that that is something that they are but I do not think I have come across any diminution working quite hard to try to address. It is important in support that there is for the London Olympics and that we remember that these are often very skilled I think that since we launched the bid for the jobs but sometimes they are also jobs that are for Glasgow Commonwealth Games I have been very relatively small companies such as HiFli Banners, pleasantly surprised by not just the level of support, for example, which is a relatively small company but because we expected there to be a high level of one that has had to grow because of the bid itself, support in Scotland for that bid, but the level of because of the work that they did in the bid. That enthusiasm that accompanies that. Partly that is must be good for the small-scale companies that we because people were inspired by the successful bid, have in Scotland—and I am sure you know we have but also because people understand more and more a great many of those—so there are opportunities the importance of events like this in encouraging like that, they will not all be about the big participation and activity. So I actually think that construction contracts, some of them will be about there is a great deal of enthusiasm now about our providing food in the Athletes Village, for example. ability to host major events in this country and, as I There is a whole range of skills that will be needed am sure you are aware, we set up EventScotland for V there and I think it is important that we are looking precisely that purpose and it is beginning to pay o , to see that we have all the skills, not just the there is a whole range of international events coming construction ones. into the country. That can only be for the good, but I do not see any diminution in the amount of support there is for the London Olympics and I think as that Q326 David Mundell: In relation to business gets closer the enthusiasm will increase even more. generally, is the focus going to be on supporting existing businesses to get involved or will more priority be given to encouraging new businesses to Q324 David Mundell: Clearly, it is very important if come forward? we are to take advantage of the business Ms Ferguson: We would want to do both. opportunities that we must promote ourselves as Obviously, we do a great deal through Scottish very positive and anybody who is dissenting from Enterprise at the moment to try and encourage new that, I am sure you would agree, is unhelpful to the businesses to start up and to give support to those overall cause. businesses that are perhaps in fledgling stages of 3208392013 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 83

13 December 2005 Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP and Mr Ian Campbell their development, so I think it would be important Scottish businesses are at least as ambitious as to do both as we go forward. There will be a great businesses elsewhere and that they would be in there deal of opportunity and we do want to maximise battling to get these contracts. If we can give them that for Scotland. the kind of support that will make that possible for them, then we will do that, so I think they have every Q327 David Mundell: And for those people who opportunity to maximise the opportunities to them want to play a part outwith Scotland here in individually. London, how would you be supporting those businesses who want to not so much conduct the Q330 Danny Alexander: Just going back to the business on home soil but actually be part of the question I was asking earlier, in answer to that activities in and around the site? question you just said this is not my area of Ms Ferguson: Obviously, it would be open to any responsibility, but it seems to me to be very Scottish business to apply for a contract if they think important that there is someone in Scotland who is they have those skills and the expertise and there is taking political responsibility for ensuring that the the opportunity to go for those contracts, and benefits of the Olympics to Scotland are delivered. If obviously we would encourage them to do that. That this is an aspect that is not your responsibility it is is the way you build an international profile and obviously someone else’s responsibility, so who has reputation and that can be of enormous importance taken overall political responsibility in Scotland for to you. I know of one example of a company in a ensuring that the benefits available to Scotland are relatively small town in Australia which built the delivered? giant archway for the Sydney Olympics and then Ms Ferguson: One of the advantages of being a was asked to do the same thing for Athens because relatively small country is that we can operate much of the expertise they had, so there are opportunities more closely together and we do not need to have the there and they do not necessarily just end with that same kind of barriers that perhaps apply elsewhere. Games. Obviously, as we go forward, there will be As a cabinet and as an Executive we work very, very other events going on around the world and it would closely together and we also work very much on a give Scottish companies and others a profile that cross-cutting basis so that we do regularly talk with they might not otherwise get. I think that could be one another on a bilateral or whatever mechanism very important for them too. happens to suit the particular issue to make sure that we are doing the right things in whatever area it Q328 David Mundell: You have talked primarily happens to be that we are discussing. That applies about your own responsibility in relation to equally to this opportunity as well, to the 2012 participation in sport but overall where do you think Olympics. Obviously, I have a great deal of input to the balance lies in the benefits to Scotland from the make to it and a great deal of responsibility for what Olympics, business or participation or tourism or happens, but I share that responsibility with my something else? colleagues, as you would expect, and obviously I do Ms Ferguson: I think the opportunities in all of those discuss these matters with them too to make sure categories are immense, but we have to work to that we are making the best possible opportunities make them happen, it will not just happen. Some of available to people in Scotland across the board. them might, but by and large it will not happen That applies equally to business as it does to other without us putting in the eVort, so I think we have to areas. maximise all the opportunities. I think you are absolutely right about tourism, the potential there is Q331 Danny Alexander: On the question of the huge. People want to do something else in their Australian benefits versus the benefits here, have you down time even when they are competing, but also a made any estimates of how many people who will lot of friends and family and supporters come, visit London for the Games will then come along people come just for the spectacle of the Games so and visit Scotland afterwards? there will be opportunities across the country to Ms Ferguson: We have not made those kinds of maximise those opportunities too. Again, it is one estimates but what we have done is look at what has that we are looking at to make sure that we maximise happened elsewhere and we know that a great deal those benefits too, but I am not sure I would want to of those who come into other places for the Games divide them up, they are all huge benefits for us. will take the opportunity to travel around. Very few people who make that kind of journey—for many of Q329 Danny Alexander: When Scottish Enterprise them it will be a long journey, it might be a once in came to see us they told us that “With spending in a lifetime journey—without taking the opportunity the same ball-park as Sydney it is reasonable to to look further afield, and we are looking just now to assume a comparable spend overall in the UK” and see where we can maximise those opportunities, they went on to say “It is also reasonable to assume which is why it is important that VisitScotland is that a significant proportion of this spend will be part of the mechanisms that we set up, because made in Scotland.” Do you share Scottish obviously they will have a major role to play in that. Enterprise’s optimism on this point? Danny Alexander: Thank you. Ms Ferguson: I think I do because whilst business and that side of things is not my direct responsibility, Q332 Mr MacDougall: The Committee has been nor necessarily one I would profess to have a great told about initiatives by EventScotland and deal of knowledge about, I think I am confident that sportscotland in attracting international events and 3208392013 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Ev 84 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

13 December 2005 Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP and Mr Ian Campbell how they raise awareness of Scotland as possible young people in Scotland are not, as it were, priced venue for events. What support is the Executive out of the market by the travel costs of getting to giving to these initiatives? Olympic events? Will you be doing specific things, Ms Ferguson: Maximum support. We set up will you be working with the UK Government to EventScotland with a view to being able to attract ensure that there is help available for people in such these kinds of events and it is our intention that categories? Scotland should be a major event destination by Ms Ferguson: It is an area that we have discussed, I 2015. We think we are well on track to that and it is have discussed it with Julia Bracewell, and what we one that we attach a great deal of store by and put a are going to do next is that Julia is going to raise this great deal of emphasis there as well. at the Nations and Regions Committee when it next meets in January. We are very encouraged by the Q333 Mr MacDougall: Just going on from that, how comments Richard Caborn made about the will the Scottish Executive be involved in possibilities there might be and obviously we are encouraging more non-business or non-sporting very keen to work with both our colleagues at tourists to Scotland—for example, holidaymakers. DCMS and also with the London 2012 Committee There must be massive opportunities here to spread to make sure that we maximise the opportunities the news about Scotland as a venue for holidaying. that there are for the young people so that they do Does the Scottish Executive enthusiastically have the opportunity to see what perhaps for them embrace this and do they have any plan in mind to might be a once in a lifetime event. We are very address that opportunity? encouraged by what Richard Caborn said. Ms Ferguson: For a number of countries that we might be talking about VisitBritain would actually be the main operator there, but obviously Q335 Danny Alexander: Obviously the Scottish VisitScotland works very closely with VisitBritain Executive has a certain amount of clout in this area, and the chair of VisitScotland is on the board of being for example the franchise holder for the VisitBritain, so the relationships are very good and Scotrail franchise and also First Group who hold they do work to make sure that every opportunity is that franchise are now winning franchises across the taken to advertise the UK in the case of VisitBritain UK. I dare say a company like that might well be and Scotland in the case of VisitScotland. We know susceptible to a bit of encouragement from ministers already that VisitScotland is a brand, if you like, that to provide cheap tickets for young people. Is that is recognised around the world and is increasingly something that you and your ministerial colleagues becoming somewhere that people want to visit from would consider doing, to ensure that there are cheap abroad. We want to maximise that opportunity. travel alternatives for young people to actually get Obviously, we do work all the time to encourage down there and see the Olympics? people to come to Scotland and I would hope that Ms Ferguson: The Games are obviously still a long not least we will do a specific work on the Olympic way oV and we have to see what the best ways of Games but we also have the Scottish Year of Culture encouraging people to actually attend are, and we in 2007 and we have the Scottish Burns Shield will do that. I think we have to be quite careful, there coming in 2009, so a great deal of activity is going on is a diVerence between having a quiet word in to focus attention on those, and I would hope that people’s ears and other things, but we will certainly people who come in 2007 or 2009 or come for other look at that and see what we can do. We do work sporting events that we have between now and 2014 very closely with the transport providers: for for that matter will realise that Scotland is a great example, this year additional trains were laid on place to be and will take the opportunity to come during the Edinburgh Festival to allow people to back, or that some people who perhaps have seen the travel back to the west at a slightly later time because advertising for those events and might not come it was recognised that that was good business sense, otherwise would come because they are coming to frankly, for the train operators, but obviously it see the Games. So we will be looking for every made sense in terms of giving people the opportunity opportunity to do that. to participate, albeit as spectators, at the Festival. The rail and other transport providers are very well Q334 Danny Alexander: One of the other issues that aware of the opportunities there will be for them, so we have been raising in this inquiry over the past few it will be something we look at as time goes on. weeks is the importance of trying to encourage attendance at Olympic events. Obviously, most of those are going to be in or around London, and Q336 Danny Alexander: So we might see special particularly by people from disadvantaged areas, Olympic trains from Scotland to London, that is either disadvantaged in terms of poverty or good news. Obviously with the events taking place at disadvantaged in terms of rurality. Obviously, if you Hampden Park, the same issues also apply, people are wishing to go from Inverness to see Olympic from Dundee or Inverness getting to see the events events, that is a whole lot more costly and even if, as that are taking place at Hampden Park, but that is the Minister Richard Caborn assured us the other travel that is taking place entirely within Scotland. Is week, there will be a certain number of cheap tickets that something that is also going to be on your available, it will be much more expensive to go from agenda in terms of ensuring again that people who Aviemore than it is to go from Aylesbury, so what are disadvantaged have access to those events that action is the Executive to ensure that particularly are taking place here in Scotland? 3208392013 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 85

13 December 2005 Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP and Mr Ian Campbell

Ms Ferguson: I think it is important that we discuss it Ms Ferguson: As you know, Chairman, the London through the London 2012 Committee and obviously Organising Committee have set up a Nations and we give it whatever support we can, because it may Regions Committee which has had one meeting and well be that there are youngsters in the south of is about to have a second in January, and Julia England who want to seea particular match played at Bracewell as I said earlier, the chair of sportscotland, Hampden, for example, so we must not just see it that is our representative on that committee. Obviously, way round, if you like. We will work with 2012 to we have other conversations with the London 2012 make sure that we can maximise the opportunities for Committee as well, not least because we want to people to be involved, not just in terms of being learn from them to make sure we maximise the spectators but also as volunteers because the benefit of their experience when we take forward the opportunity of being a volunteer at an event like the Commonwealth Games bid for Glasgow. So we do Olympics is again a once in a lifetime event but also, have a great deal of dialogue with them and also with perhaps, a life-changing event, the opportunity of our colleagues at DCMS to make sure that being involved, albeit perhaps in a small way, in Scotland’s flag is flying and they know that there are organising one of the world’s greatest spectacles. We opportunities for the Olympics in Scotland as well as will be looking for those kinds of opportunities too. opportunities for Scots and Scottish companies through the Olympics.

Q337 Chairman: Minister, you will appreciate that the Committee members are very much concerned Q339 Chairman: Will the ODA have a Scottish voice thatpeoplefromdisadvantagedareasshouldfeelthat on it and will they decide where the funding destined they are participating in the 2012 Olympic Games for Scotland will eventually go? Who will make that and we are concerned at how the Scottish Executive decision, is it the ODA? and local government and even private enterprise are Ms Ferguson: The money allocated for Scotland? I am not sure what money that would be, sorry. doing this. I had a meeting last week with Lloyds TSB and I told them that we are looking for the private companies as well to give some kind of support Q340 Chairman: The funding that is allocated to because obviously for the people to come from Scotland, who will make the decision? Will the ODA Scotland to here there is going to be a lot of travelling make the decision in consultation with the Scottish costs, the price of the ticket and accommodation and Executive or what will happen? it will be very diYcult for under-privileged families to Ms Ferguson: I am not sure exactly what come here and visit the Olympics. Are you taking a circumstances that might be, Chairman. I am sorry lead in discussing that with your colleagues? I can I am being a little bit vague here. understand that you work as a team, but you will take Mr Campbell: One point is that Scottish Enterprise up this as a matter of priority, how can we help those will be represented on the Scottish steering group people who are unable to come here to London and which Julia Bracewell will chair. Scottish Enterprise other places and participate in those Games. Will are the main link with business and they are the ones there be a policy there that you will be working on? who will be working hardest with the Scottish Ms Ferguson: As you say, it is something we need to companies to be involved in ODA contracts when discuss with London 2012 to see the best way of they are being let. That is where the money is likely taking that agenda forward, but it is one that we are to come through, so any money that the ODA has very interested in pursuing. I have to say I would also budget-wise, they will be in competition with other want to be looking to have opportunities in those organisations and other companies trying to get communities to raise the profile of the Olympic that, the same as other regional development authorities around other parts of England who will Games and of the benefits of sporting participation. be trying to do as well. They are the main link in So I would hope that there will be a programme that trying to get that sorted out. runs in tandem with the Olympics that is about participating in your own area, that is not about going to London necessarily but is about you doing Q341 Danny Alexander: Can I follow up on that something in your own area, something more than point. Obviously the Olympic Delivery Authority is watching,actually havingsomekind of linkandsome there to ensure that the infrastructure projects and kind of activity involved in it. So we are looking to see so on happen on time and award and allocate what kind of programme that might be but there will contracts and the first part of the Chairman’s also be cultural opportunities around the Games too question was will there be a specifically Scottish and we want to make sure that Scotland maximises voice on the ODA in terms of its board and its that opportunity as well; for some young people that structure as well. I appreciate the fact that there is a might be a more attractive element of it, even with the Nations and Regions Committee, but that is sporting element not everyone shares our enthusiasm somewhat detached from the ODA so will there be for sport. We need to make sure that we are doing a strong Scottish representative around that table to both of those things and doing them equally well. make sure at least, even though, obviously, appropriate rules have to be followed in terms of awarding contracts, that Scottish companies and so Q338 Chairman: How will the Executive ensure that on are given a fair hearing, rather than there not Scottish interests are best served by the Olympic being a Scottish voice around that table when those Delivery Authority? decisions are being taken? 3208392013 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Ev 86 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

13 December 2005 Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP and Mr Ian Campbell

Ms Ferguson: I do not think that there will be Q346 Danny Alexander: Can I just follow that up someone specifically Scottish on it necessarily, but briefly, if I may? You mentioned of course that there obviously the main link in will be through the may be Scottish footballers who might be London Organising Committee and through the disappointed at not being able to be part of Team Nations and Regions Committee, that is really one GB. Would the Scottish Executive support the right of the purposes of Nations and Regions. I do not of any Scottish footballer who would qualify on the think there will be someone, if you like, that we are grounds of their skill and ability to take part in a UK nominating onto the ODA, I do not think it will team to do so, against the wishes of the SFA? work like that. Ms Ferguson: From memory—you would probably Mr Campbell: DCMS will determine who goes onto have to check this with the SFA—the SFA have said the board or whatever it is that is constructed from that if Scottish footballers decide to take part in it there, and presumably they will want the best people then that is a matter for them, so I am not sure that to go on there and if Scots are the best to be involved actually the kind of support you are suggesting then I expect they will have a place there. We could would be needed. I think the SFA are quite realistic find out a bit more, but I think the DCMS are about what that actually means in practice. probably best placed to give information on how they will constitute it. Q347 David Mundell: What do you gauge is the level of support in Scotland for England hosting the 2018 Q342 David Mundell: Minister, earlier on I touched World Cup, and do you think the SFA’s approach on negative elements and one focus for these in relation to the Olympics played any part in no negative elements has been football and the SFA’s attempt really to forge a wider bid than simply an decision not to participate in a unified GB and English bid? Northern Ireland football team. What is the Scottish Ms Ferguson: It is too early to tell what the level of Executive’s view on the SFA’s decision? support is; I am not aware that any in depth or Ms Ferguson: We really have to allow the SFA to proper studies have been done to gauge that, but I do have its position because they are the governing not honestly think that did have any bearing on the body of that particular sport and it is for them to FA’s decision, it is more to do with the rules that make that decision, so I do not think it is really for cover those kinds of bids having to be based around the Executive to have that kind of view. Obviously, footballing nation as it were rather than more than we understand the SFA’s position, but it is not really one. I do not honestly think that that was part of for us to have that kind of a view on it. their deliberations, but who knows, it may been, but I do not get that impression at all. Q343 David Mundell: Do you have a dialogue? Ms Ferguson: We do obviously discuss many issues Q348 David Mundell: Do you think there will be any with the SFA over the course of the months and adverse consequences from the SFA’s decision on years so I am sure that comes up now and again. any other basis, such as fewer training camps in Scotland or fewer visitors? Q344 David Mundell: That sounds like a ministerial Ms Ferguson: No, I really do not think so. answer, both in the Scottish Parliament and here. V Would you prefer that they had reached a di erent Q349 David Mundell: But there is absolutely no truth decision? in some negative-inspired suggestions that the SFA’s Ms Ferguson: It really is a decision that they have to decision could lead to the Games schedule for come to and obviously they are not alone in that, the Hampden Park being withdrawn? Welsh FA have come to the same decision, so there Ms Ferguson: No, I have not had any indication that seems to be a stream of thought in football that that would be the case. We know the dates of those suggests that that is not the favoured option. It will matches and we know what is happening, so it is be interesting to see though because obviously we certainly not something that has been suggested to are talking about football that will be participated in me. I do not think so at all. by those who are under 23 and it will be interesting to see whether or not there might be young Scottish footballers who might be disappointed that they are Q350 David Mundell: The extent to which the SFA’s not able to compete in the Olympic Games. Having responsibility extends to those events, do you think said that, I think perhaps for most footballers the they will be there on the day in a fully supportive World Cup is the focus of their ambitions, so I am capacity? not sure whether that would actually be the case in Ms Ferguson: I am sure they will be. International reality. It really is a call that they have to make, they football is international football and I think the are the only people who can. tickets will go very, very quickly for those events. There will be capacity crowds for the events held at Hampden, I am quite sure there will be. Q345 David Mundell: Do you think that maybe over the next six years there is scope to change that decision? Q351 Chairman: Minister, you will have heard about Ms Ferguson: I suppose there is always that C-ScOT’s campaign for a separate Scottish possibility. Olympic team. 3208392013 Page Type [O] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 87

13 December 2005 Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP and Mr Ian Campbell

Ms Ferguson: Indeed. Q354 Chairman: Minister, could I thank you and Mr Campbell for your attendance this afternoon. Before Q352 Chairman: In paragraph 5 of your I declare the meeting closed, do you wish to say memorandum you say that “Scotland does not have anything in conclusion—perhaps on the areas not the infrastructure to host a future Olympic Games. covered already during our questioning? Therefore, a London Games will provide Scottish Ms Ferguson: I think it might be worth saying very athletes with their best opportunity to compete on briefly, Chairman, that I do genuinely see a great home soil as part of Team GB.” Can we take it from opportunity for Scotland in these Olympics, and one that, that the Scottish Executive has little of the reasons I say that is because I think that what enthusiasm for the idea of a separate Scottish team, we learn and what we get out of those Olympics can or are you simply being pragmatic? stand us in particularly good stead as we go towards Ms Ferguson: I think both. A modern Games is a the 2014 bid for Glasgow. I think we are learning all very complex thing to pull together and requires a the time from what London did and I think we are huge range of facilities of all kinds and a huge able to make our bid the best possible bid that we can infrastructure to scope. I think Scotland is too small by learning from these examples. So while we are a country to be able to do that for the Olympic talking to our colleagues in Melbourne, who are Games, but also the Executive has no enthusiasm for about to host the Commonwealth Games in 2006, it a Scottish Olympic team and in fact the rules of the is also of vital importance that we learn from the Olympics would prohibit a Scottish team as they stand, their own rules would make that impossible. example of London and that we take advantage of It is not something that we are pursuing at all. that. I think too for the UK as a whole the opportunity to host those two major sporting events Q353 David Mundell: It is not worth changing the within two years means that we have a real status of Scotland within the United Kingdom to opportunity, both to put Scotland and the UK on achieve an Olympic team? the map as hosts of sporting events but also to Ms Ferguson: To take the question literally, it would genuinely increase the participation levels and to not be about changing the status of Scotland within make sure that our young people do participate in the UK, it would actually be about Scotland being activity that will be beneficial to them in the longer entirely separate from the rest of the UK before it term and beneficial to the country as a consequence. would be possible for Scotland to compete as an Chairman: Thank you for your evidence which I am Olympic team—as the rules of the Olympics sure we will find very helpful when we compile our currently stand. We have no enthusiasm for that report. Thank you very much. whatsoever.

Supplementary memorandum submitted by the Scottish Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport

At the Scottish AVairs Committee meeting on 13 December, I undertook to write with details of the Sport 21 targets.

Sport 21, Scotland’s strategy for sport to 2020, was developed by sportscotland following extensive consultation with local authorities, sports governing bodies and other key partners at national, regional and local levels. The overarching target of Sport 21 is that by 2020, 60% of adult Scots will take part in sport at least once a week. The plan for the period 2003–07, however, contains 11 targets which are intended to underpin this ambition.

The 11 targets have been endorsed by all the key partners responsible for the delivery of sport and the strategy’s implementation. Details of the targets are set out in the annex to this letter. It is important to note that statistical evidence on progress towards the targets is currently only available to 2004, the first year of the strategy. We have always accepted that progress towards the participation targets would be slow during 2003 to 2005 and gain greater momentum during 2006 and 2007.

As I mentioned at the meeting, we have commenced a review of Sport 21 to determine objectives for the period to 2015. The revised strategy will focus on the delivery of priorities including participation rates.

I believe that this will result in clearer priorities and milestones for each partner, including local authorities, and give fresh impetus in the drive to close the gap in participation in sport. Patricia Ferguson MSP 5 January 2006 3208392014 Page Type [E] 26-10-06 20:45:16 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG4

Ev 88 Scottish Affairs Committee: Evidence

SPORT 21 2003–07: THE NATIONAL STRATEGY FOR SPORT IN SCOTLAND

Targets Target 1 80% of primary school children will be physically active. Target 2 We will have made progress toward all schoolchildren taking part in at least two hours of high quality physical education classes a week. Target 3 85% of those aged 13–17 will take part in sport in addition to the school curriculum, more than once a week. Target 4 49% of those aged 14 plus in Social Inclusion Partnership areas will take part in sport at least once a week. Target 5 55% of those aged 17–24 will take part in sport more than twice a week. Target 6 43% of those aged 45–64 will take part in sport at least once a week. Target 7 Over 250 Scots will have been medallists on the world stage. Target 8 Scotland will have over 500 sports halls available to the public so that 70% of Scots have access to a hall within 20 minutes walk. Target 9 Over one million Scots will play sport in membership of clubs. Target 10 Scotland will sustain 150,000 volunteers who are contributing to the development and delivery of Scottish sport. Target 11 Every local authority area’s community planning process will have contributed to the targets of Sport 21 2003–07.

Printed in the United Kingdom by The Stationery OYce Limited 10/2006 320839 19585