Tuesday Volume 498 3 November 2009 No. 135

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 3 November 2009

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better—fewer errors, faster turnarounds and an extra House of Commons seven days before businesses have to pay the tax due.

Tuesday 3 November 2009 Gordon Banks: I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer—and, indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) for lending me his pen The House met at half-past Two o’clock earlier. Has my right hon. Friend considered the impact that the changes could have on some small businesses that reach the £100,000 threshold, but for which a PRAYERS paperless VAT return might not bring a saving, but a cost, especially in these hard economic times? [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr. Timms: Yes, we have been thinking about that. BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS We have consulted and will announce our conclusions shortly. However, we have provided quite substantial BEVERLEY FREEMEN BILL [LORDS] financial help to businesses signing up to online filing— Lords message (29 October) relating to the Bill considered. £900 million in total before the scheme closed earlier Resolved, this year. I can reassure my hon. Friend that we will That this House concurs with the Lords in their Resolution.— provide a detailed, step-by-step guide to registering for (The Chairman of Ways and Means.) online services in the February letter that will set out the requirement to file online. The change will bring benefits LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] to HMRC and to businesses as well. Lords message (29 October) relating to the Bill considered. Resolved, Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): Given that That this House concurs with the Lords in their Resolution.— a survey by the Revenue showed that most businesses (The Chairman of Ways and Means.) were totally unaware of the obligation, how did the Government get on with their target that at least half of LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR businesses would be filing their returns electronically by LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] March 2008? Lords message (29 October) relating to the Bill considered. Resolved, Mr. Timms: We are making very good progress, and That this House concurs with the Lords in their Resolution.— there will be—indeed, there already has been—a substantial (The Chairman of Ways and Means.) campaign to inform businesses of their obligations. Over the next few months more efforts will be made to TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL ensure that everybody is aware of them. Telephone PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS] support, for example, will be available to businesses that Motion made, have queries, and help will also be provided through a That so much of the Lords Message [29 October] as relates to programme of presentations and drop-in sessions. Most the Transport for London (Supplemental Toll Provisions) Bill people will have to make their first online return next [Lords] be now considered.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) July, so we still have a number of months in which to advise businesses, and we are determined to get this Hon. Members: Object. right. To be considered on Tuesday 10 November. Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (LD): Will the Minister give us an assurance Oral Answers to Questions that he will devote enough management time and resources to this stage of reforms, so that we can avoid the utter chaos experienced by many of my constituents with more recent reforms? As a result of the latter, for many TREASURY people it is taking months to get thousands of pounds of tax that is their due repaid. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— Mr. Timms: Of course, one of the great strengths of VAT Returns filing online is that it speeds up the whole process—for exactly the reason that the hon. Gentleman set out. We 1. Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): have had very good experiences, for example, with What estimate he has made of the average annual online filing of self-assessment returns, and I am confident savings to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs over that those benefits will be repeated when businesses go the next three years arising from the introduction of online for VAT filing and other taxes. paperless value added tax returns. [297048] The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen Unemployment Timms): Businesses turning over more than £100,000 per year, and all newly registering businesses, will be required 2. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): What steps he is to file online from 1 April. Savings of about £4 million a taking to ensure that additional Government funding is year are expected within three years as a result, but the provided for areas most affected by rising unemployment. main reason for the change is to make the service work [297049] 697 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 698

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): Stewart Hosie (Dundee, East) (SNP): With the Since the pre-Budget report, more than 3 million people Government’s fiscal stimulus ending, quantitative easing have been moved off unemployment benefits. Across ceased, the VAT cut being reversed and departmental the country, a targeted effort has been made to assist cuts already in the pipeline, there is deep concern that those communities most hit by unemployment, including this removal of assistance from the economy will force initiatives such as the working neighbourhoods fund, unemployment even higher. Is this therefore not the which is worth more than £1 billion, and the new time for the Government to make the earliest possible £1 billion future jobs fund designed to create 150,000 statement that they will permit a further year’s reprofiling jobs. of capital expenditure, as the most effective way to protect and preserve jobs? Derek Twigg: The campaign to end child poverty today released a report highlighting the impact of Mr. Byrne: None of the measures that the hon. unemployment on children and families. What measures Gentleman mentioned has been stopped. In the pre-Budget is my right hon. Friend taking to prevent unemployment report and in the Budget, my right hon. Friend the from meaning poverty for children? Chancellor was clear when he said that the measures that we have put in place have to be targeted and have to Mr. Byrne: As I am sure my hon. Friend would agree, last only as long as the problem exists. That is why it is the best route out of poverty remains the prospect of quite right that as recovery returns to our economy, work, which is why we have been so determined over the some measures should be retired. However, those that past year to take combined action on monetary policy are still needed, such as measures to support jobs or and fiscal policy, which together are now supporting businesses’ cash flow, are set to continue. Also, as the about 500,000 jobs. However, in addition, we realise hon. Gentleman knows, the Bank of England is still to that some communities need targeted help, which is why reach a decision on quantitative easing. the future jobs fund will seek to create more than 6,000 jobs in his region. On top of that, of course, is the Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is important role of tax credits, which are now supporting my right hon. Friend aware that in west Yorkshire we 20 million people and helping the poorest families in are coming out of recession and doing very well, but this country to the tune of more than £4,500 a year. that we still need some help from better investment in public sector jobs, to move them from the south and London up to Yorkshire? Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): Given rising unemployment, and the fact that this country has been in recession for longer than any of its major competitors, Mr. Byrne: The Government have actually moved how can Ministers still claim that we were better prepared? more jobs from London out into the regions than we set targets for, but that process needs to continue, and I am determined to see that it does. Mr. Byrne: The truth is that the recession is hitting different countries differently. If we look at the United States, the unemployment rate is 10 per cent; if we look Bingo Industry at France, the unemployment rate is 10 per cent; and if we look at Germany and Japan, the fall in their respective 3. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): If he will bring gross domestic product is greater than ours. The fact forward proposals to reduce the level of taxation applied that we have been able to put in place a fiscal stimulus to the bingo industry. [297050] worth 4 per cent. of GDP, as well as keeping interest rates low—together supporting up to 500,000 jobs—is The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah in part because we went into this recession with the McCarthy-Fry): We have had continued dialogue with second lowest debt in the G7. the bingo industry, including before and since the Budget, on the impact of the tax regime. I last met the industry Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I concur with my just three weeks ago, and that dialogue will continue. hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) that However, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware Treasury resources should be targeted at specific areas. that tax policy decisions are taken and announced in They should also be targeted at specific projects, such as Budgets and pre-Budget reports. the city strategy, the future jobs fund and the fit for work programme, all of which exist in my constituency, Philip Davies: The Government have increased the all of which are putting people back to work and all of taxation on bingo to 22 per cent., whereas tax on other which are under threat from that lot over there on the forms of gambling is 15 per cent. Bingo plays an Tory Benches. important part in local communities, but many clubs are shutting up and down the country. What have this Mr. Byrne: My hon. Friend has put his finger on Government got against bingo? precisely the point. Over the course of this year, the Opposition have said consistently that we cannot afford Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I can assure the hon. Gentleman a fiscal stimulus. That was repeated month on month, that we value the bingo industry and recognise the until the shadow Chancellor’s recent speech, when he important part that it plays in the community. I would began to nuance their position. The truth is that without remind him that 22 per cent. is the average across the the support that we have put in place over the past year, gambling industry, that the effective tax rate in 2003 the jobs that we are now supporting, such as the 150,000 was 35 per cent. and that, on the information that the jobs supported by the future jobs fund, would be in bingo industry gave us before the Budget, the effective jeopardy. tax rate was 24 to 25 per cent. 699 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 700

Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): I have raised I should like to say two other things, if I may. One is this with my hon. Friends on the Front Bench before, that what is now happening demonstrates the wisdom but is it not more sensible to tax the more dangerous of our intervening in the first place to save Northern forms of gambling more than the innocent forms, such Rock, to nationalise it and now to see it through to as bingo? recovery. My second point is that, although some jobs were unfortunately lost, there are more than 3,500 people Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I do not think that we are in employed in Northern Rock. That is good-quality the business of grading types of gambling. As I have employment in a region that needs that employment. said, we recognise the important part that bingo clubs play in the community, and all these things are taken Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): Can the into account when such decisions are made. Chancellor explain what process is being put in place to ensure that Northern Rock’s good assets, of which there Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): are undoubtedly many, are not sold off cheaply to the When the Finance Bill went through, we were told that private sector while its bad, toxic debts—including those the overall tax burden on bingo would not rise. The that resulted from 125 per cent. mortgages—are left industry disagreed, and indeed, a report from Ernst and with the taxpayer? Youngthat landed with the Minister last month concluded that the tax has actually gone up. When will she finally Mr. Darling: Again, it might be helpful if I make the admit to the House that the Treasury got its sums point that the mortgages that will be held by the Northern wrong on bingo? Rock mortgage asset company are not all what we might characterise as bad assets. There will be some—there Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As I told the hon. Member for is no doubt about that, given what happened at Northern Shipley (Philip Davies), I met representatives of the Rock, especially towards the end—from which the company Bingo Association just a few weeks ago, and we discussed will not get its money back. However, the majority of the report from Ernst and Young. That report is still the assets in that company are performing—that is, the with officials, and it is being assessed. As I have said, people who have them are meeting their loans. In other these decisions are taken in the pre-Budget report and words, they are perfectly good loans. The reason that we in the Budget, and the information on which we based have divided Northern Rock up is that, otherwise, we the Budget decisions last year was based on figures that would have had to put even more capital into it. What I the Bingo Association gave us. If it is now giving us am proposing means that we can sell off the Northern different figures, it makes sense that we should take our Rock bank—in the not-too-distant future, I hope, when time to assess them. it is right to do so—and get it back into the private sector. The other assets will need to be managed over a Bank Liabilities longer period of time. As conditions improve, however, I hope that many of those loans will come good again 5. Jim Cousins (Newcastle upon Tyne, Central) (Lab): and we will be able to get our money back. What the liabilities will be of the proposed (a) good Dr. Cable: But what is the hurry? As I understand it, and (b) bad banks to be formed from Northern Rock the European Commission has set no timeline for this and Bradford & Bingley. [297052] process—unlike with the Royal Bank of Scotland. Our experience of other countries, such as Sweden, is that The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): this problem could take 10 years to sort out, so why are Northern Rock’s total liabilities were published in its the Government putting forward this proposal now? half-year results. The split between the two banks will They run the risk of getting very bad value for money be set out once the business plan is finalised. Bradford for the taxpayer in a premature sale. & Bingley’s liabilities are published in its annual report. Mr. Darling: I have said on many occasions in this Jim Cousins: I thank the Chancellor for that answer, Chamber and elsewhere that we are in no hurry to sell at but he will know that many thousands of home owners all. Indeed, we will not sell these assets in relation to are likely to be left behind with the £50 billion to Northern Rock until the price that is offered is right and £60 billion in the old Northern Rock mortgage book. we can get our money back. It is also worth bearing in They are not well off, and they are not rubbish, as mind that, of the original £29 billion that was lent to Opposition Members are so keen to say. What sort of Northern Rock, the amount outstanding is now £14 billion, future, and what sort of mortgage deal, will they have? so we are on the right track. We are in no hurry to sell at all. I recall having said that to the hon. Gentleman on at Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend raises an important least two occasions at previous Question Times, and it point. The proposal is to split Northern Rock so that is not entirely clear why he seems so reluctant to accept there is a new bank that will accept deposits and lend that assurance. money for new mortgages. The majority of mortgages will remain in the Northern Rock asset management John McFall (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): Is part of the branch. People who have mortgages with it not the case that about 90 per cent. of the mortgages Northern Rock will be written to by the institution held by the Northern Rock management asset company, before this division happens. I am very anxious to while having risky characteristics, could come good in ensure that people are treated in a similar way, no the long term? That being the case, will the Chancellor matter whether their mortgage is held by the Northern take on board the issue of competition? We know that Rock bank or by the Northern Rock mortgage asset-holding the British banking system suffers from too little company, and I have had discussions with the chief competition. In the process of disposing of Northern executive of Northern Rock so that we can ensure that Rock—at the Government’s leisure—will he not rule that happens. out the possibility of the mutualisation of the company? 701 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 702

Mr. Darling: My right hon. Friend is right about the it clear to the Commission, however, that what we first point: payments are being met on the majority of agreed to at the European Council in June ought to be these loans, and there is every reason to suppose that implemented as European law, which respects sovereignty they will be redeemed, so they will not be a loss to the at the same time as ensuring that there is a degree of company. Inevitably, as I said to the hon. Member for co-operation in a single market. Of course, all that Twickenham (Dr. Cable), there will be some cases where, demands an ability to work with allies in Europe, which because of what Northern Rock was up to towards the is something that the hon. Gentleman might want to end when it was getting into difficulties, there may be reflect on, because I do not think— continuing difficulties, but perhaps they can be managed out in time. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the Chancellor; I I shall return to my right hon. Friend’s second point think we got the thrust of his answer. about competition when I shortly make my statement Small Businesses on banking reform. I want to see more competition on the high street for mortgages and for loans to small and 8. Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): medium-sized businesses, and I believe that Northern What fiscal measures he has introduced to assist small Rock will form an important part of that policy. We are businesses with cash flow difficulties during the recession. not in an immediate hurry to sell, as I said, but I hope [297055] that the proposed split will take place sooner than would otherwise be the case—it might be several years. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen On mutuality, I would like to see more diversity in the Timms): Among other measures, we have extended loss banking system. I have always wanted to support the relief, we have deferred the increase in corporation tax building society sector. I would just say in relation to for small companies, we have helped businesses spread Northern Rock that we cannot put any more public payments through the Business Payment Support Service money into it. It is just not possible—state aid would and we have introduced the capital for enterprise fund preclude it—to do so. Of course, anyone seeking to take and the enterprise finance guarantee. over Northern Rock would need to have regard to the fact that it is necessary to ensure that the taxpayer is Mr. Swayne: There is a gulf between what Ministers repaid. I have no difficulty with the concept of a mutual, say at the Dispatch Box and what is actually happening. certainly in principle, provided that funds for that came Yesterday, at column 782W, the Minister told me in from outside Government sources. terms that these schemes include PAYE, but when I made representations on behalf of my constituents, Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge) Excelsior Coaches, and wrote to the Chancellor, I received (Con): The liabilities in respect of both Northern Rock a letter back from Revenue and Customs saying that the and Bradford & Bingley have been taken on by the Chancellor had never mentioned PAYE and that no taxpayer because the elected British Government formed such scheme for PAYE existed. Will the Minister find the view that this was the best course of action. The out exactly what is going on? Chancellor has previously taken a robust line on the issue of fiscal sovereignty, insisting that decisions on Mr. Timms: First, I agree with the hon. Gentleman bank bail-outs that impose a burden on the British on just how important the small and medium-sized taxpayer can be made only by the British Government. enterprise sector is to the UK, accounting as it does for Unfortunately, the draft proposals currently under nearly 60 per cent. of the private sector work force. That consideration in the European Council do not reflect is why we have gone to such lengths to support those that view, so will the Chancellor take the opportunity businesses, not least through the Business Payment today to reiterate that red line and to confirm that Support Service. About 150,000 businesses have benefited under no circumstances will the Government agree to a from those agreements, and PAYE has been included in structure that could allow an unelected European regulatory a number of them. body to order a British taxpayer-funded bail-out of a bank? Mr. Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry, North-West) (Lab): Can the Minister tell us whether the bankers’ bonuses Mr. Darling: That is a bit rich on the day when the have been tied to their meeting the lending promises Conservative party is throwing in the towel on its key and engagements into which they entered with the promise on Europe, but there we are. Yes, I did judge it Government, and in particular with small businesses? right to intervene and to nationalise Northern Rock, and I think that most people accept that that was the Mr. Timms: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor will right thing to do. It is only the Conservatives who were be referring to the question of bonuses in his statement against doing that. Equally in relation to Bradford & to the House in a few minutes’ time. Bingley, we used the very legislation that the Conservatives opposed in order to resolve the problem over the weekend. Mr. David Gauke (South-West Hertfordshire) (Con): The hon. Gentleman is asking about the proposals Last month we saw a record fall in bank lending to from the de Larosière report that came before the smaller businesses, with a 40 per cent. drop in lending to European Council earlier this year. We have made it manufacturing firms. The CBI and members of the absolutely clear that we believe that domestic regulation Monetary Policy Committee have highlighted lack of ought to be a matter for our regulators. We do see a case credit as a major impairment to the recovery, but at for a European fiscal stability council, because that is lunchtime today Lord Myners told “The World at One” important, and we do also see a case for far more that there was collaboration and co-operation, as that would have “no problem with the availability of credit”. avoided some of the problems we had with the Icelandic Does the Minister agree with the noble Lord, or does he banks, which must be to our advantage. We have made live in the real world? 703 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 704

Mr. Timms: I agree with the Federation of Small Michael Fabricant: Given that the fiscal stimulus in Businesses and others who have reported that credit the United Kingdom to which the Chancellor just referred conditions are improving. That is a welcome development. was greater than the fiscal stimulus in any other country However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we will in terms of our borrowing as a percentage of GDP, and continue to give real help to businesses and reject calls given that our currency has been devalued against the from Opposition Members to let the recession take its dollar, stimulating exports, was the Chancellor surprised course. to find that the United States had emerged from the recession before the United Kingdom, and was the Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): While credit conditions Prime Minister even more surprised— are improving, a number of small companies are still suffering because they cannot obtain credit. This week I Mr. Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. visited Saint Engineering in Slough, a precision engineering Mr. Darling: In terms of size—and size sometimes company which, although it has even provided components matters—I think the hon. Gentleman will find that the used for a Mars landing, had to operate for 26 days German Government’s stimulus was slightly larger than without a bank account because of the unhelpful attitude ours, although my former opposite number, the right of bank managers to small businesses. What can the hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) Minister do to get them on the case? said that he was not very much in favour of it. The key Mr. Timms: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point is that Germany, France, Italy, Japan, China and draw attention to the importance of supporting innovative many other Asian countries, and the United States all businesses like the one in her constituency, and we will do the same thing when faced with the most severe continue to talk to the banks about it. It is encouraging downturn in modern times: they put money into the to hear reports that conditions are improving, but they economy to support people and businesses. That is why, are not yet as good as we would wish them to be, which throughout the world, the confidence that we now enjoy is why we will continue our support and our efforts with is far greater than it was six months ago. the banks. Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): May UK Economic Growth I urge my right hon. Friend to reject the shallow short- termism from the Opposition Benches? It looks as 9. Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): though the UK will have slower growth coming out of What is his most recent assessment of the level of the recession, but also a shallower recession. Will my growth in the UK economy compared with those of right hon. Friend say what has happened and what will other OECD economies; and if he will make a statement. happen in terms of the size of our economy as against [297056] those of comparable OECD countries between, for example, 2005 and 2015? Let us look at the medium 13. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): What is his term. most recent assessment of the level of growth in the UK economy compared with those of other OECD economies; Mr. Darling: I am sure—and I certainly hope—that and if he will make a statement. [297062] you would rebuke me, Mr. Speaker, if I were to try to read out a table giving all that information immediately, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): but my hon. Friend makes the general point that the I shall publish my latest assessment in the pre-Budget measures we are taking are making a difference. The report. scrappage scheme, which is part of the stimulus and which has been opposed by the Conservatives, has Mr. Crabb: Is it not the case that all the Prime meant that Nissan has taken on more workers in Sunderland Minister’s and the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s fantasy and has reported an increase in its small car sales. predictions about Britain leading the world out of recession Honda is also reporting an increase in its sales after have now been proved false? Can the Chancellor explain having had a lay-off for the first six months of the year. why the United Kingdom is still mired in the worst I say to the Conservatives that the point at issue is that recession, while all the other major economies have Government action can and does make a difference; returned to growth? that is the difference between the two of us. We must Mr. Darling: I said at the time of the Budget that I continue to support our economy until we have made did not expect our economy to return to growth until sure that the recovery is established and we can then about the turn of the year, and I remain of that view. As start the necessary consolidation. That is very important, the hon. Gentleman may recall, I also said a couple of and I am sorry about the Conservative party’s approach. years ago that I believed the recession would be deeper Of all the 186 members of the International Monetary and more profound than many observers were predicting. Fund, there is not a single country that believes in and It is good news for us that America, Germany and supports the stance the Conservatives have taken. Japan are coming out of recession, because they are Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): Given that all important markets for us. It was inevitable that the the other major economies are now growing, what recession would affect countries in different ways and exactly did the Prime Minister mean when he said: for different periods. The downturn in Germany and “This Chancellor is leading…the world…out of recession”?— Japan at the beginning of this year, for example, was far [Official Report, 3 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 268.] greater than the downturn that we had experienced. However, the one obvious common feature applying to Mr. Darling: I do not recall that he singled me out in every country that has come out of recession is the that way, but what I would say to the hon. Gentleman—I introduction of a fiscal stimulus of one sort of another. have been saying this for some time now—is that the The Conservative party is the only party in 186 countries difference between the two of us is that when we were that takes a different view. faced with a severe downturn I believed that the right 705 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 706 thing to do was to use the spending power of Government allocating 0.7 per cent. of gross national income to to ensure we supported our economy. All the countries overseas development assistance by 2013, and we will that have now come out of recession or are coming out set this target in legislation. of it have had that same thing in common. They have all been affected in different ways—sadly, America has had Mr. Clarke: Is my hon. Friend aware of any discussions higher unemployment than us—but the Governments involving those who recognise that ODA funding has of all these countries decided that to do nothing and let also got to be matched against the need for increased the recession take its toll was unacceptable. Instead they resources to combat climate change, and will we set out have taken the necessary action, and it is bearing results. our stall ahead of the Copenhagen summit?

Mr. Osborne: I am sorry that the Chancellor does not Ian Pearson: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, remember the compliment the Prime Minister paid to in the sense that one of the key things that many of the him, but the Prime Minister said in June 2009—which poorest countries in the world face today is not just the was, in fact, also the month in which he was trying to challenge of getting out of poverty, but having to adapt sack his Chancellor—that the to climate change, which will hit some of them the “Chancellor is leading…the world…out of recession.” hardest. That is why it is vital that we do agree on climate change financing in the run-up to Copenhagen. The problem is that the British Government do not This will be discussed by G20 Finance Ministers at the have a simple answer to the simple question why this weekend; however, it is important that it be seen as country is still in recession when the rest of the world is separate from the funding that will be provided to help recovering. The Chancellor now says that he will hit his some of the poorest countries out of poverty. Budget forecast that by the end of the year the economy will be growing—and, of course, we hope he is right Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): If I remember about that—but he knows that the Budget forecast correctly, back in 1997, the Labour Government had included a prediction that the economy would shrink by the aspiration of 0.7 per cent. of gross national income 3.5 per cent. this year. Is he still confident that that being spent on overseas development. Why, therefore, is growth prediction will be hit, because it would require it in the last year of the Labour Government that they an annualised growth of 24 per cent. in the final quarter are proposing to put that into legislation? of this year if he is to be accurate? Ian Pearson: We will not take any lectures from the Mr. Darling: I believe I said at our last Question Time Conservatives on overseas aid, given that they slashed that, in common with other countries, the downturn in the budgets year on year. We have seen sustained the first quarter of this year—and, indeed, also in the improvement in the amount of money going to help last quarter of 2008—was more severe than people had some of the poorest countries as a result of the 12 years thought. I repeat the point, however, that the hon. of this Labour Government; indeed, it is one of the Gentleman’s answer would have been to do absolutely things I am most proud of. We have said that we will nothing. As my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary meet our interim target of 0.56 per cent. by 2010. We said, until the hon. Gentleman tried to nuance the are on track to do that, and we will also, as my right Conservatives’position in his press conference last Monday, hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and he has said time and again that he would not have done Bellshill (Mr. Clarke) clearly pointed out, lead the way anything—he would not have supported people, and in having a climate change deal that will help the nor would he have supported businesses, to get through poorest countries of the world. this recession. Indeed, most informed commentators take the view that what we have done is right. It is a view Time-to-Pay Arrangements that is accepted by the OECD, the IMF, the CBI and the Federation of Small Businesses. The Conservatives 11. Mr. Ken Purchase (Wolverhampton, North-East) alone took the view that they would do absolutely (Lab/Co-op): What recent assessment he has made of nothing, and I believe that they did so on the entirely the effect on small businesses of the time-to-pay cynical calculation that if what we did did not work, arrangements operated by Her Majesty’s Revenue and they would say they were right, and if it did work, they Customs. [297060] would say the recovery would have happened anyway. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen They are wrong on this—they are fundamentally wrong Timms): The business payment support service was on perhaps the most important issue of the day. introduced last November. Since then, more than 220,000 time-to-pay arrangements have been agreed with 150,000 International Development businesses—employing between them some 600,000 people—enabling them to spread tax payments of almost 10. Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) £4 billion. (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for International Development on Mr. Purchase: These arrangements are very welcome proposals to ensure the Government meet a target of in my constituency, where people have struggled, but allocating 0.7 per cent. of gross national income to does the Minister accept that these and other measures overseas development assistance by 2013. [297057] that have been introduced are really a cover-up for the catastrophic failure of profit-maximising finance capitalists The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): who have failed our small businesses? Is it not now time Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings on a to look for more responsible banking, to remutualise wide variety of issues, including this topic, with a wide those organisations that have gone to the free market, variety of public and private sector organisations. The and to reject the idea that “competition, competition” is Government remain committed to meeting the target of anything other than a mantra? 707 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 708

Mr. Timms: We are certainly looking for changes in Mr. Speaker: Order. There is pressure on time and we banking, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the must make progress. I want a question with a question Exchequer will be setting out in a few moments’ time. mark—one sentence please. However, I would not agree with my hon. Friend in characterising this scheme as a cover-up, because it has Mr. Betts: Those organisations questioned whether it given a lifeline to thousands of businesses in constituencies was right to withdraw the stimulus package now and such as his. One of the most impressive things about it is whether doing that would have a disastrous effect on the very good record of repayment. More than 90 per economic recovery. cent. of the repayments due come in on time once an agreement has been made. It is a very good model for Mr. Byrne: As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor the future. said, the fiscal stimulus that we have been able to put in place, because we went into this recession with low Capital Projects levels of debt, together with low interest rates, is now 12. Gwyn Prosser (Dover) (Lab): What recent assessment supporting up to 500,000 jobs. The disastrous thing to he has made of the effects on the economy of his do would be to withdraw that stimulus too quickly. The Department’s policy of bringing forward spending on Conservative party has set its face against a fiscal stimulus capital projects. [297061] and it is for early withdrawal of that stimulus, which would be such a disaster for our economy. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): Bringing forward capital spending is part of a response Tax Avoidance to the recession that is now supporting up to half a million jobs, helping 300,000 people stay in their homes 14. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/ and helping 150,000 businesses with their cash flow. We Co-op): What steps he is taking to reduce the incidence forecast that these measures will return us to growth by of tax avoidance. [297063] the end of the year. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen Gwyn Prosser: Advancing building programmes is Timms): We have taken action domestically and also good news for us in our constituencies, but what internationally to change the game for those who bend can we do to encourage hospital trusts that do not have rules on tax. We detect avoidance early, we tackle it access to capital funds and that rely on their surpluses quickly and the tax avoidance disclosure system introduced to advance their programmes and create jobs and in 2004 has helped to close more than £12 billion in construction programmes earlier? avoidance opportunities. Mr. Byrne: We are very proud of the fact that under David Taylor: The Tax Justice Network has done the this Government, the national health service now has world a great service in producing its global index of 100 new hospitals, which have been built through the secrecy, which reveals the most secretive financial centres— increases in capital expenditure. That means that the the City of London being the fifth worst. Why cannot NHS estate is now in a completely different shape. We we take an international lead in tackling tax avoidance plan capital spending to continue at different kinds of by first ending the clandestine and corrupting culture levels in the future, but even by 2013-14 we expect that permeates the City of London? capital expenditure to be higher than the levels we inherited. Of course, there will be trusts around the Mr. Timms: We have led work internationally in the country that will also choose to use the different flexibilities G20 on tackling tax evasion and have won plaudits that they have, such as the private finance initiative or from many for doing so. Her Majesty’s Revenue and internally generated resources, but our determination to Customs will be setting up a dedicated tackling tax carry on with the business of modernising the NHS is evasion unit to target those with offshore bank accounts undiminished. who do not come forward under the current new disclosure Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): opportunity—I believe that he will welcome that. In the Will the Minister consider using capital expenditure to G20, we have led a dramatic change on tax havens—there reduce the debt on the Humber bridge? In particular, has been a huge amount of profitable activity—just will the Treasury agree to carry out its own analysis of over the past year. the economic impact of the tolls on the local area and Credit Unions on the Exchequer, and match the promise made by my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne)? 15. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): What Mr. Byrne: I will certainly be happy to consider discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for evidence such as that the hon. Gentleman mentioned Business, Innovation and Skills on the potential for the and any other evidence that he would like to bring location of credit union activities in post office branches. forward. [297064] Mr. Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe) (Lab): Is my The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah right hon. Friend aware that at a recent meeting of McCarthy-Fry): The Government recognise the potential the Yorkshire and the Humber Regional Committee, for closer working between the Post Office and credit representatives of the CBI, the chambers of commerce, unions. I understand that the Post Office and the Association the Engineering Employers Federation—the EEF—and of British Credit Unions Limited have been holding the Federation of Small Businesses all welcomed the discussions on this subject. The Government will be Government’s stimulus package, including the bringing holding a national consultation on banking services at forward of capital projects? They said that although the the Post Office, which we hope to launch by the end of economy recovery has started to happen— the year. 709 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 710

Mr. Drew: I thank my hon. Friend for that pleasing The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): news, but we have heard these ideas before and it is vital Departmental budgets are set until April 2011 and, as that the poorest among our community, who find it the Chancellor has made clear, he will set out more most difficult to borrow, can go to the most trusted detail on his spending plans in the pre-Budget report. institution—the Post Office—to use credit unions. Will she ensure that that happens as a matter of urgency? Mr. Mackay: Can we have a guarantee that the arrangements for the spending review will be put in Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I absolutely agree with my place very quickly? Obviously the people of this country hon. Friend. He may be interested to learn that back in will want to see detailed proposals from the Government September I officially opened the first credit union to ahead of the election. share premises with a post office, which is in Pollok, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Mr. Byrne: As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor Glasgow, South-West (Mr. Davidson). One could see has made clear, the public will be in no doubt about the the potential for the synergy between the post office and choice between the two principal political parties and the credit union: they were not just sharing premises; their spending plans at the next election. There is no they were also sharing the staff. precedent for when spending reviews should be carried out. They are an innovation that was introduced by this Government, and sometimes they have been produced a Banking Sector Reform year before one spending review expires and sometimes two years before. At a time when there is a degree of 16. Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): When he uncertainty in the economy, as the right hon. Member last met the Governor of the Bank of England to for Bracknell (Mr. Mackay) would admit, it would discuss reform of the banking sector. [297065] wrong to be too hasty about what budgets will look like in the year of the Olympics and thereafter. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Governor of Topical Questions the Bank of England meet regularly to discuss a range of issues. T1. [297073] John Robertson (Glasgow,North-West)(Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental Mr. Newmark: Given that and the fact that when responsibilities. Lehman Brothers collapsed neither it nor the banks actually understood the counter-party risks, has the The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): Minister discussed the right systems and ensured that The core purpose of the Treasury remains as I set out in they will be in place when the system is reformed? the last Treasury Question Time.

Ian Pearson: As the hon. Gentleman rightly points John Robertson: My right hon. Friend will be aware out, the collapse of Lehman Brothers was of systemic of the people who desperately need working tax credits. importance to not only the US economy, but the world With the volatility in the employment market these economy, and he will be very aware of the actions that days, can he tell me whether there is a shortfall in the followed it. The issue has had extensive scrutiny, and he uptake of working tax credits and, if so, what does he will also be aware of the administration position at the intend to do about it? moment. Those lessons have and are being learned, which is one of the reasons why actions have already Mr. Darling: In relation to the child tax credit, take-up been taken by the Financial Services Authority and it is is about 81 per cent. and lone parents make up about another reason why further reforms in the financial 95 per cent. of that, whereas parents in the lower income services Bill will follow the Queen’s Speech. bracket make up about 92 per cent. There is quite a high take-up among parents with children. In relation to the Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): May I ask take-up of working tax credit among families without my hon. Friend, as my constituents are also asking, children, although 100,000 more people have claimed what the Government are going to do in terms of taking the working tax credit, we need to do more to encourage up the regulation of the whole financial sector and not people. It is a way of ensuring that people’s incomes can just the reform of the banks? be maintained, especially at a time of economic downturn.

Ian Pearson: As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): May I ask the has pointed out on a number of occasions, we cannot Chancellor about the forthcoming pre-Budget report? return to business as usual. Reforms have been implemented Everyone knows that the date keeps being put back, already and more action needs to be taken. I am sure presumably because the Government cannot agree on that my hon. Friend will want to support the Government’s what to put in it. The Bank Governor says that the future legislative programme, which will have an important country cannot afford another fiscal stimulus while the piece of legislation—the financial services and business Prime Minister is busy briefing Sunday newspapers that Bill—contained in it. he is planning a new spending splurge. As the third person in this unhappy marriage, what does the Chancellor think should be done, or is he just keeping his head Comprehensive Spending Review down and avoiding the mobile phones?

17. Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): When he Mr. Darling: The pre-Budget report will be an expects to announce arrangements for the next opportunity for us to see clearly that the measures that I comprehensive spending review. [297066] set out a year ago and in the Budget this year are having 711 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 712 an effect. I believe that the measures that we put in place Mr. Darling: The problems at Northern Rock were to support our economy, some of which will end this substantially caused by a new breed of management year, such as the VAT decrease, and others of which will that came in and did not seem to understand that continue, such as the time-to-pay measure that was terrible problems can arise if one’s sole source of funding mentioned earlier by my right hon. Friend the Financial for lending dries up. It was a management problem as Secretary to the Treasury, are having an effect on the much as anything else. economy. Perhaps the difference between the hon. As I said in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member Gentleman and I is that I believe that we need to ensure for West Dunbartonshire (John McFall), I would like to that we set out plans to ensure that we have growth, see more mutuals. However, anyone coming in for Northern because otherwise we face a decade of low growth and Rock would have to ensure that they had sufficient low employment. That is the prescription and the counsel funds to achieve mutualisation. Whether the business is of despair that the Conservatives are offering and I do a mutual or a plc, there needs to be capital behind it. not think that it is the right option for this country. That is a question that anyone coming in for the business would need to address. T3. [297075] Gwyn Prosser (Dover) (Lab): We all appreciate the need for pay restraint, especially among T4. [297076] Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): the higher paid, but does my right hon. Friend Last week, the Prime Minister demoted the Chancellor appreciate the demoralising effect it has when we tell from No. 2 in the Cabinet to No. 4. Has the Chancellor low-paid public sector workers that their pay is to be had a falling-out with the Prime Minister? frozen and their jobs threatened? In particular, does he appreciate the impact on hard-working border control Mr. Darling: I do not know where the hon. Gentleman officers based in Dover and Calais? got that news from. However, I can tell him that the Prime Minister and I are agreed that the challenges The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): faced by this country are best met by making sure that We are very proud of our record over the past 10 or we continue to support the economy, and that we get 11 years in fixing and improving the pay of some of the growth, jobs and high employment in the future. That is people in our public services who make the biggest more interesting to us than rather pathetic party politics. difference and who work hardest on behalf of this country. However, as the Chancellor has said, once T8. [297080] Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): In view of the recovery is locked in it is important that we get on with importance of large capital projects in providing jobs, the business of consolidation, which is why we have will my right hon. Friend ensure that the Treasury committed to halving the deficit over four years. We releases as soon as possible the funding already allocated expect people in public services, particularly those who for the Mersey Gateway bridge if, as is expected, the work at senior levels, to show a degree of leadership. project is given the go-ahead? That is why the evidence that we have submitted to pay review bodies calls for a 0 per cent. increase for senior Mr. Byrne: This is very much on our radar. I understand groups and for increases of between 0 and 1 per cent. in that the planning inspector’s report following the recent 2010-11 for other public sector work forces who are not public inquiry is expected to be received in the middle of covered by three-year deals. I know that this will sometimes December. The recommendations will then need to be cause a degree of anxiety but we have to get the balance considered carefully by my noble Friend the Secretary between investing in public services and the pressures of of State for Transport before a decision can be announced. public sector pay absolutely right. As is normal in these cases, a decision on funding will be taken at that stage. However, I am very grateful for the consistent lobbying that my hon. Friend has done T2. [297074] Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): on this subject. Why is the Chancellor seeking to change the tax status of holiday lets, which are frequently operated on farms T6. [297078] Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) by small businesses in rural areas? The proposal will (Con): On the repeal of the fixed holiday let rules, will harm precisely those businesses that Treasury Ministers the Minister explain why he did not consult at all either were just saying that they were trying to help. tourism or agricultural bodies before taking this damaging action? That is especially important, given The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen the close relationship between farming and tourism in Timms): This matter was discussed in the Finance Bill constituencies such as mine in Pembrokeshire. Committee this year. There has been a tax break for furnished holiday lettings for some time but, as it is Mr. Timms: As I explained earlier, the change was available for UK properties only and not for properties made for a straightforward legal reason. It looked as in Europe, it is no longer clear that it is consistent with though the law required it but, as I said, we will publish European law. We have announced a change, and we an impact assessment that will be available for widespread will publish an impact assessment of that change at the discussion. time of the pre-Budget report. T9. [297081] Mr. Ken Purchase (Wolverhampton, North- T5. [297077] Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) East) (Lab/Co-op): Does the Chancellor agree that the (Lab/Co-op): Does my right hon. Friend the Chancellor increasing use of technology and mechanisation in the agree that it is very unlikely that Northern Rock would banking industry has led, dangerously, to many local have run into problems if it had remained a mutual? Is managers losing a lot of knowledge about, and touch that not the best possible reason for him to look proactively with, their local businesses? If he does agree, what talks for ways to return it to the mutual sector? Would not will he hold with the banking industry to reskill the that be in the long-term national interest? banking fraternity in local matters? 713 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 714

Mr. Darling: I agree with the point that my hon. Mr. Darling: There may well be a case for reviewing Friend makes. It is important that local bank managers the fines available to the FSA. I am not familiar with understand the businesses and the affairs of the people the particular case. I will arrange for Lord Myners to with whom they deal. At times they can appear remote, write or I will write to the hon. Lady myself, once I have which is something that I have raised with the banks on had an opportunity to study what she has said. many occasions. I am not sure that we can go back to the age when there was a Captain Mainwaring behind Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Today’s changes in every bank counter, but perhaps that is something that the housing benefit and council tax benefit rules will one or two banks might want to reflect on. put into the hands of families with children whose child benefit is being disregarded about £20 a week per family. T7. [297079] Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): What else can the Department do to help to tackle child The Chancellor will be aware of the terms of the deal poverty in advance of the pre-Budget report? that has been hammered out between the Treasury and Lloyds Banking Group, which fortunately will safeguard Mr. Byrne: As I said in response to an earlier question, for the moment the future of the Cheltenham & Gloucester the key route out of poverty remains connecting people branch in my constituency, and the 1,200 jobs in Gloucester. with the opportunity to work. That is why, as my hon. I understand that the terms of that deal have to be Friend knows, we have been so determined to take steps finalised by the college of Commissioners in the European to help make sure that people are kept close to the Union. Can the Chancellor confirm that that will be labour market. That is why we have put more than done by the end of this year? £1 billion into the working neighbourhoods fund, in order to help provide jobs where unemployment is high. Mr. Darling: I certainly hope so, because the present It is also why the future jobs fund is so important. It college of Commissioners comes to the end of its term creates more jobs, again targeted on those areas where of office this year. We reached an agreement with unemployment is high. That, on top of our determination Commissioner Neelie Kroes at the weekend, and she to see the tax credit system stay in place and on top of speaks for the Commission. As I shall explain when I changes to the social fund, is making a real difference to get to the statement, the detail needs to be sorted out, those who are finding it toughest in this recession. but we have an agreement that is in the best interests of the whole banking sector. I shall return to that shortly. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Are the Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): Government concerned about the miserable return that Does the Chancellor agree that the Government were savers, many of them elderly and relying on their savings, right to reject any advice to join the euro? Given that, get for the investments that they have in banks and does he agree that this is not the time for those who building societies, which scarcely covers inflation and promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty to go the tax that they may have to pay? floppy? The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): Mr. Darling: Our position on the euro has not changed, As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, despite the fact just as I know my hon. Friend’s position on the euro has that we have historically low interest rates, rates in the not changed. But he is right. The Opposition ought to market are in some cases significantly in excess of that. reflect on the fact that they are becoming more and He will also be aware, particularly with regard to pensioners, more out of touch with what is happening in relation to of the changes that we announced to the ISA regime, Europe. As for their central promise to the electorate on which mean that people aged 50 and over can get a referendum, that appears to have been junked. tax-free savings on their investments. I hope he would welcome that. T10. [297082] Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): Is the Chancellor aware of the remarks of Lord Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Myners last night, who said that 70 per cent. of all Predictions today from the EU suggest that the UK share transactions are computer-generated in trades economy will grow at a greater rate than many European lasting only microseconds? Does he have any plans to economies. Does my right hon. Friend believe that that review the way shares are bought and sold? is an acknowledgement that the policies that the Government have followed during the recession and Mr. Darling: If that needs to be looked at, we will do beyond it are and will be the right ones? that. Before I come to any conclusion, I should like to see what the noble Lord actually said. Mr. Darling: I will set out in the pre-Budget report my assessment of where we are in relation to future Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): Should all Members growth. But, as I said earlier, there is clear evidence now of Parliament say whether they are resident in the that, right across the world, Europe included, supporting United Kingdom for tax purposes? our economies was the right thing to do—particularly to try to keep unemployment as low as possible. Mr. Darling: I should have thought that that would be a precondition for getting elected. Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): As the Chancellor says, it is vital to support our Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): Last week the Financial economy at this time. He will know just how difficult an Services Authority fined GMAC-RFC for its unfair environment it is west of Shetland when it comes to treatment of 46,000 mortgage customers. The fine was encouraging investment in oil and gas. At this crucial £61 per customer. Is that enough? time for our national energy resources, will he look 715 Oral Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 716 further at extending the field allowance to try to encourage we can reduce our borrowing. At the Budget, I set out the investment decisions that, crucially, need to be made proposals to cut our deficit by half over a four-year soon west of Shetland? period, but, to have cut borrowing now, and public expenditure dramatically now, would have tipped us Mr. Darling: I am very much aware of that issue, and into a deeper and more prolonged recession. That would as the hon. Gentleman may know I met representatives have been more expensive and damaging, and it would of the oil industry in Aberdeen about three weeks ago, have taken us longer to get out of the problem. when we discussed the prospects not just west of Shetland but in the North sea generally. I am anxious to ensure Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): I do not that we do everything we can to encourage the extraction know how many pubs the Chancellor is now barred of oil and gas, which is important to us in terms of from as a result of his ill-judged and damaging rise in security of supply. I am aware of the particular problems beer duty, but will he consider the effect of the VAT in relation to the conditions west of Shetland, and we increase when it returns to 17.5 per cent. in January? In shall continue to see what we can do to try to resolve the light of that, will he reconsider the beer duty rises that problem. from next April? CAMRA reckons that, combined, they will put another 5p on the price of pint of beer, damaging community pubs. Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Is there any prudential limit to how much the Government can and Mr. Timms: We are concerned about what happens should borrow? on the night of 31 December. I said in May that businesses that are open across midnight, such as pubs Mr. Darling: My answer is the same as when the right and clubs, will be able to continue charging VAT at the hon. Gentleman asked the question last time. It is right lower rate. I can confirm today that they will be able to that borrowing should rise as a correct measure to deal do so until 6 am on the morning of 1 January 2010. with the current downturn, but of course as the recovery That will be very welcome news to institutions such as becomes established we need to take steps to ensure that those about which the hon. Gentleman is concerned. 717 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Banking Reform 718

Banking Reform existing taxpayer shareholding would be diminished. To protect the value of our shares, we have therefore decided 3.32 pm to take up our share of this new capital, investing £5.7 billion net of an underwriting fee. By raising The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): capital in the markets, Lloyds will begin its transition With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a from state support to private finance, and no longer statement on the banks in which the Government have need the insurance of the asset protection scheme. shareholdings. This morning the Treasury, Lloyds Banking Because Lloyds has benefited from the existence of that Group and the Royal Bank of Scotland issued market scheme since March, it has agreed to pay the Treasury a notices in the usual way. fee of £2.5 billion and to reimburse our costs. Today’s In October last year, I set out a range of measures decisions make Lloyds a stronger bank and provide designed to prevent the collapse of the banking sector. better value for the taxpayer, ending the exposure of the Those measures are working, and countries across the taxpayer through the insurance scheme, with a substantial world took very similar steps over the following weeks. fee in return for the insurance provided to date, and a But the uncertainty in global financial markets had a substantial capital contribution from the private sector, very serious impact on confidence, resulting in a world while maintaining our shareholding at 43 per cent. recession. That in turn worsened the outlook for our I now turn to the Royal Bank of Scotland. It is a economy, leading to higher losses for UK banks. bigger bank than Lloyds, with a more complex balance It was clear that further action was needed to strengthen sheet and a greater exposure to losses, mainly due to its the banks, and in January we announced an asset protection purchase of the Dutch investment bank ABN Amro. scheme to prevent a further shock to confidence, and to Under February’s agreement in principle, the Government ensure that lending could continue. We continued to said that they would insure £325 billion of assets through support the economy through fiscal and monetary policy, the asset protection scheme, as well as providing an and we co-ordinated a global policy response at the additional capital injection of £13 billion, a second G20 London summit in April. Those measures are tranche of capital amounting to £6 billion, and a further working, too: fears of a global depression have receded £6.5 billion-worth of capital support through additional and market confidence has started to return. As a shares issued to pay the fee. Together, this would have result, we are now able to achieve our objectives on increased RBS’s capital by £25.5 billion, taking the financial stability and banking reform at a lower overall Government stake to 84 per cent. cost to the taxpayer. Before we could reach a binding agreement, we needed The asset protection scheme that I announced in to carry out due diligence on the assets and to ensure January has played a vital role in supporting confidence that the final terms were consistent with the then emerging in financial markets. Let me remind the House of the European Commission guidelines. The restructuring key features that I set out back then. The scheme guidelines were published in July, following extensive provided insurance against losses arising on a pool of work with the UK and other countries. We have also bank assets, and in return the banks paid a fee in the now completed, with the Financial Services Authority, form of shares. The effect of the scheme is to strengthen due diligence work on the RBS balance sheet. As a the capital position of any bank taking part in it, but result, we are making a number of changes to the terms that of course carries a risk of exposure for the taxpayer. of the scheme, which will improve incentives and share The scheme was open to all major UK banks, but in the risks better with the private sector. event, improved market conditions meant that only two Although market conditions have improved, RBS banks decided to participate. still needs to do more to be able to stand on its own feet. Since then, further improvement in market conditions So we will continue with our plan to invest £25.5 billion means that Lloyds has been able to develop a better of capital in RBS—but there are three key changes. plan. It now does not need to participate in the scheme, First, there will be a £43 billion reduction in the pool of which will significantly reduce the cost and exposure for assets covered by the insurance scheme, which reduces the taxpayer. the Government’s contingent liability. Secondly, the first I will now explain in detail our proposals to restructure loss on these assets—payable by RBS—will be increased the banks better and also to make them stronger. Turning from £42 billion to £60 billion, which further protects first to Lloyds, following the recapitalisation last October, the taxpayer. Thirdly, in return, RBS will pay an annual the Government owned 43 per cent. of the bank. In fee of £700 million for each of the next three years, and March we reached an agreement in principle with Lloyds £500 million per year thereafter, which gives it an incentive on its participation in the asset protection scheme. This to leave the scheme as conditions improve. When it does would, through the fee, have increased their capital by leave the asset protection scheme, it must have paid a over £15 billion, increasing the cost to Government, minimum fee of £2.5 billion, or 10 per cent. of the with our stake in Lloyds rising to 62 per cent. We agreed actual capital relief received. then in principle to insure £260 billion of assets, giving To reflect the increase in the first loss, amounting to us a very large contingent liability. But now that market £18 billion more payable by RBS, we will no longer conditions have improved, we have agreed a better require RBS to give up its tax losses, which it estimates proposal for Lloyds, to bring in substantial private at between £9 billion and £11 billion. In the unlikely capital and reduce taxpayer exposure. event of a severe downturn, it may be necessary to So Lloyds has announced today that it will raise provide up to £8 billion contingent capital, but this will £21 billion in the open market. This capital raising is be triggered only if there is severe stress, taking its core fully underwritten by commercial banks. As a shareholder, capital ratio down to 5 per cent. Again, in return for the Government have the option to take up part of the that, RBS will pay an annual fee of £320 million for as newly issued equity. If we did not do so, the value of the long as the contingent capital is available. 719 Banking Reform3 NOVEMBER 2009 Banking Reform 720

In the case of RBS, the overall level of Government Northern Rock lending, and when the time is right it support will remain broadly the same as I announced in will facilitate a return to the private sector. Lloyds will February, but this revised deal is better structured, with sell Cheltenham & Gloucester, the Intelligent Finance better risk sharing and greater incentives to exit. There internet bank, the TSB brand, Lloyds TSB Scotland is a higher first loss payable by RBS—£60 billion, up and some Lloyds TSB branches in England and Wales— from £42 billion. There are better incentives, with a fee altogether, more than 600 branches by 2013. RBS plans of £700 million for three years and £500 million thereafter, to sell its insurance businesses, including Direct Line and fewer assets to be insured—£282 billion instead of and Churchill, as well as its commodity trading arm £325 billion. I will provide the House with full details of and its card payment processing operation. It will also the operation of the scheme when the final agreement is divest more than 300 branches across the UK, again by signed and approved by the Commission. 2013. Together, those businesses could amount to about As part of these restructured deals, we are also pushing 10 per cent. of the retail banking market in the UK. forward reform at the banks, with improved lending In each and every case, we will insist that those and remuneration policies. Both Lloyds and RBS will institutions should not be sold to any of the existing big be in a stronger position to continue lending. Lloyds players in the UK banking industry. Lloyds and RBS will increase lending capacity this year and next, with will each be required to sell their retail and SME an additional £11 billion for businesses and £3 billion businesses as a single viable package to a smaller competitor for home buyers in each year. RBS will continue to meet or new entrant to the market. That, together with its lending commitments of £25 billion this year and Northern Rock, will potentially create three new banks next, as I indicated earlier this year. Both will publish on our high street in the space of five years, which will customer charters on good practice, particularly on increase diversity and competition in the banking sector, small and medium-sized enterprise lending, increasing giving customers more choice and a better service. transparency and improving loan conditions for business The financial services sector will remain an important customers. part of our economy. Yesterday’s job losses announced On pay, all major retail and investment banks in the by RBS and today’s job losses announced by HSBC are UK need to meet the G20 principles and Financial a reminder that for many employees, these are difficult Services Authority rules, so that bonuses are transparent, times. We will do everything we can to work with the variable and with no multi-year guarantees. Between banks to help them find new jobs for those affected. 40 and 60 per cent. must be deferred over a number of My proposals today will ensure that we have a strong years, not paid out immediately, and they must be and vibrant financial services sector in the future. They subject to clawback to ensure that pay is aligned with will mean strong and safer banks that are better able to long-term performance. However, we have agreed with support the recovery, and more competition and choice RBS and Lloyds that they will go further than that. For for people who use them. I commend this statement to this year, there will be no discretionary cash bonuses, the House. except for staff earning less than £39,000 a year. The executive boards of both banks will have their bonuses Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): Once again, deferred in full until 2012. That goes much further than Mr. Speaker, the Chancellor tells the House of Commons the G20 agreement, and further than any other banks in what he already has spun to every national newspaper—last the world. night, long before any market notices were put out. I will continue to strengthen the supervisory regime, building on the proposals that I set out in July, by Let us separate fact from Government fiction. First, adopting the recommendations of the Walker review on we welcome the modest break-up of some of those corporate governance for banks, reforming the mortgage large banking conglomerates—a break-up that the markets and legislating to make banks put in place Chancellor wholly opposed when the Conservatives “living wills”, as well as providing enhanced powers and proposed it six months ago, and which everyone knows objectives for the FSA, to strengthen regulation further. was wholly imposed upon him by Commissioner Neelie Kroes. We also welcome the ban this year on all significant I believe that those steps are better for the taxpayer, cash bonuses in these major retail banks—not least better for the banks and better for the economy. As a because we proposed that a week ago. Again, the Treasury result, the likely cost to the taxpayer and the risks faced and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury wholly opposed by the public finances have reduced markedly. The total us. Yet again, the Conservatives are setting the agenda. assets protected have been reduced by more than £300 billion, there is more private sector investment and However, is not the real story the sheer size of this the fees received are better structured. I expect, subject bail-out? The Chancellor could not bring himself to to wider factors, to revise downwards the provision for give us the actual figure in the House of Commons— financial sector interventions in the pre-Budget report. £39.2 billion, equivalent to £2,000 per family. It is As I said in my statement in July, our second objective bigger even than the bail-out last autumn, and with the is to encourage greater banking competition in the high Royal Bank of Scotland, it now breaks a new world street and for small and medium-sized businesses. Since record as the single biggest bail-out of any single bank the financial turmoil started in 2007, the banking industry anywhere in the globe. has become more concentrated in most advanced Of course, the Chancellor presents this as positive economies. Over the course of this year, we have been Government action, but he had little choice, because working with the Commission to agree on how to the alternative was seeing RBS unable to fulfil the basic restructure the banks while meeting state aid rules. requirements of a solvent bank. However, it results in a As for Northern Rock, I have already set out my bail-out bigger than that of Citigroup and that of Bank intention to split the bank into two separate companies, of America. Indeed, all that is going into a bank the and we now have Commission approval for that. That former chief executive of which, we must remember, will mean that less capital support is needed to keep was knighted for banking services by the Prime Minister. 721 Banking Reform3 NOVEMBER 2009 Banking Reform 722

[Mr. George Osborne] over the next few months. What signal does that send to the rest of the global banking sector which is trying to In return for this huge slug of money, there is still no minimise its UK tax bill at the moment? guarantee that this will get lending flowing in the real On bank lending in the real economy, every time the economy, help real businesses to stay afloat or keep Chancellor has announced another form of bank bail-out, people in work. The Chancellor wants us to believe that he has promised that it would lead to more lending. In this is a new era for British banking, when in truth the October the Government said that their banking policy British people are being presented with yet another would enormous bill to try to clear up the mess from the old “ensure the flow of money to small businesses and families”.—[Official era of irresponsible banking supervision over which Report, 20 October 2008; Vol. 481, c. 30.] this Labour Government presided. In January they said that their banking policy would Let me press the Chancellor on the details—first on the enforced sale of branches and bank businesses. Why “get lending going in the wider economy”. did he oppose that when we first suggested it six months Perhaps they believe that they have succeeded, because ago? He dismissed it out of hand. Is that because—perhaps Lord Myners has been telling everyone today that there he could confirm publicly what everyone is saying is no problem with credit in the economy. Will the privately—although he did not want to do it, it was Chancellor confirm that the latest evidence shows that imposed on him by the actions of the European the flow of lending to businesses has now fallen for the Commission, right up until the weekend? Indeed, during seventh consecutive month, and the money supply is their time in office, this Government have never made now shrinking at the fastest rate since records began? any secret of the fact that they have actively promoted The Chancellor again tells us of his changes to the the policy of creating a small number of large banks. banking system. He promises yet another banking Act, Mr. Darling indicated dissent. but the verdict of the Governor of the Bank of England is simple: there has been “little real reform” under this Mr. Osborne: The Chancellor shakes his head. Does Government. Meanwhile, credit and confidence remain he not remember what he said in the pre-Budget report in desperately short supply, and still the Chancellor and last year? He said that Prime Minister have no plans to provide either. Indeed, “consolidation”— as Treasury questions have just demonstrated, they do of banks— not have the simple answer to the simple question of “results in stronger and better-capitalised…institutions, which why Britain is still in recession while the rest of the will lead to greater financial stability; more protection for consumers; world is in recovery. and better availability of competitive financial products.” That is the truth about this Government. They went Is that still his view? Does he think that the recent around boasting that they had saved the world, but they consolidation has resulted in stronger institutions, greater are still trying to save the British banks, and they have financial stability or more competition? Can he really not got on to saving the British economy. believe that, after he has seen what has happened over the last year? Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman raises several points, Secondly, let me ask him about the details of this to which I will reply—but what I find difficult to take is £39 billion bail-out. He said that it was broadly the the impression that he gives that somehow he is against same as the deal that he put before the House of these measures, whereas his deputy was on television Commons in February, and presented the various numbers today saying that he agreed with what we are doing. involved in that deal. Of course, what he was actually Indeed, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) doing was comparing apples with pears. In February he was asked by the BBC interviewer, told us that RBS would get a £13 billion capital injection “would you have not done this?” and a £6 billion contingency reserve—he just added to and he went on to say: the total today—and today he says that it is going to get £25.5 billion capital injection and an extra £8 billion in “it’s worth reminding people, no bank here has collapsed, no individual, no business, had all of their savings wiped out and reserve. Will he confirm that this is not the same as the that is because of what the Government did”. deal he announced in February? [Interruption.] No, it was not the hon. Member for The Chancellor talks about the asset protection scheme. Fareham who said that. What he said was, “Absolutely”. Again, will he confirm in public what everyone involved He agreed with what was being said, and he went on to in these negotiations is saying in private—that the asset say that he supported the measures that I am announcing protection scheme he announced in January proved to today. [Interruption.] I will answer all the points that be unworkable, impossible to negotiate and incompatible the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) made, but with European state aid rules, which is why he has had the House should be aware that the Conservative position to go back to the drawing board? When did he realise at the Dispatch Box is rather different from the position that the asset protection scheme would not work? Why that they take outside the House. does he think that the United States has been more successful with its public stress tests in leveraging private The hon. Member for Tatton went on about what capital into its banking system so that, unlike Britain, it “everybody’s saying in private”. I remind him that what is not turning to the taxpayer for further large-scale everybody is saying in private, and increasingly in public, capital injections? about him is that he tends to play politics rather too Will the Chancellor confirm that the Royal Bank of often on issues that are far more important than that. Scotland will not be paying taxes even when it returns The hon. Gentleman asked about the break-up of the to profit? That is a remarkable circumstance that I banks. To argue that we have been against that recently suspect will be a feature of several debates in the House is nonsense. I said in the Mansion House speech in June 723 Banking Reform3 NOVEMBER 2009 Banking Reform 724 that one of the things that we had to do as we stabilised gross stock flow of £478 billion in September two years the banking system was to get more competition in the ago—just before the crisis. So money is being lent. At system. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned what I the same time, however—this is the point that Lord said last year about Lloyds-HBOS. Yes, we did support Myners made in the interview on “The World at One”— that merger, because at that stage financial stability was undoubtedly one thing that happens during recessions important. I remind him that he agreed with that as is that businesses repay their money as well. At the same well, and he went out of his way to say that he had time as more lending, therefore, money is also being spoken to the people involved on both sides and assured repaid. That said, everybody agrees that there are still them of the Conservative party’s support. There is not problems with lending and cases of businesses not too much between us on that point. getting money when they probably should get it, and As for the point about bonuses, it is not true to say that there are still problems with pricing. The difference that our position is the same as his. I remind him that between the Government and the Conservative party is on Sunday night, when he put out his press release in that we propose to do something about it. anticipation of the statement on bonuses, he said that it In conclusion, I very much welcome the support of would apply to British retail banks. By Monday, when the hon. Member for Fareham for what we are doing, the wind started to blow the other way, there was a and I hope that at some point during the day he can subtle change and the investment banks were included. have a word with the shadow Chancellor. Then perhaps It was still only British banks though, while our measures we will see universal support for what we are doing, affect all major banks based here. With RBS and Lloyds, because I think that that is the right way forward. we have gone further than any other country in restricting the amount of bonuses that executives can receive, and Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): I thank the that goes far further than he or anyone else has suggested. Chancellor for giving us good notice of this statement, The hon. Gentleman asked some specific questions but may I check the numbers involved? We have the about RBS. Yes, it is a large sum of money—there is no £25.5 billion for RBS, the £3.3 billion after the fee for doubt about that—but RBS was one of the largest Lloyds, the £8 billion contingent capital commitment banks in the world. Indeed, by some measures it was the and the £282 billion insurance for the RBS toxic assets. largest in the world. Unfortunately, however, it got itself Why did he not also mention that—as I understand to into huge difficulties—partly, as I said, because of the be the case—RBS has been given an additional £10 billion acquisition of ABN Amro, and partly because, frankly, in tax write-offs, which were not previously accounted? parts of its operations had taken on risks that it could Can he explain that? not manage, and it did not have enough capital. As he On remuneration and bonuses, will the Chancellor correctly recognised, our choice is whether to support explain in simple terms why state—or state-supported— it. If we did not, however, not only would RBS fail, but banks are still paying bonuses at all? A bonus is surely a the knock-on effect would be catastrophic. I appreciate bonus, whether it is paid now or in three years’ time. the point about these being large sums of money, but Why do he and the Conservatives think that it is a great they are unavoidable. discipline and hardship for the bankers to be asked to As for the £25 billion, I went out of my way in my wait three years for their Ferraris? The Walker report statement to break down how the figures are calculated, on remuneration says that banks should declare their so that the House could see what the position is. The remuneration packages. Given that the Government hon. Gentleman is right to say that the £8 billion have adopted that proposal, will the Chancellor be clear contingent capital is new—that will only happen if the about whether that will be compulsory or voluntary? core tier 1 ratio falls below 5 per cent., or there is a On lending, is it not true to say that if we take into severe downturn—but stress tests have been carried out, account net lending, which the Chancellor has just and the FSA believes that the £25 billion that we have mentioned in relation to repayments, the banks are put forward today is sufficient. falling well short of their obligations to lend to solvent The hon. Gentleman asked about the asset protection British companies? Is it not also true that Lloyds has scheme rules. He is right to one extent: they were not been trying to wriggle out of its lending obligations by consistent in January with Commission rules—but that opting out of the asset protection scheme? Can the is because there were no rules from the Commission in Chancellor therefore clearly explain the nature of the January, because this is all new territory. The Commission banks’ lending obligations? Are they binding and what has had to work up rules during the course of this year. sanctions are applied if the banks fail to meet them? While those were being worked up, obviously we found Finally, I want to raise the breaking up of the banks out more about the assets, and the Commission found through the sale required by the European Commission, out more about what is going on in other banks in other which I welcome, in order to stop the process by which parts of Europe—and yes, that has developed. banks have long been ripping off their customers. Is it The hon. Gentleman asserted that in America there is not true that the break-up relates purely to 10 per cent. no public money. Tell that to the US Congress! The then of the banks’ assets? The one issue that neither the American Administration had no end of difficulty in Commission nor the Chancellor has dealt with, but getting the legislation through, because it involved public which the Governor of the Bank of England has raised, money. It is simply not true, therefore, that America is is the continued existence alongside each other of retail managing to do this without involving the public. That banks and the large speculative trading operations—the simply is not right at all. so-called casinos. The hon. Gentleman also asked about lending. It is The Government have set their mind against important to consider closely what is happening in the implementing the advice of the Governor and have economy. In September the stock of gross lending to opted for a more gradual regulatory approach. However, businesses was £492 billion, which compares with a is it not right that private banks that continue to benefit 725 Banking Reform3 NOVEMBER 2009 Banking Reform 726

[Dr. Vincent Cable] and had no retail depositors. The then American Government tried out what the hon. Gentleman suggests from those guarantees should compensate the taxpayer and let it go down, and look what happened: the entire for the considerable benefit that they thereby derive? We world’s financial system almost followed it down the should not today simply be discussing transferring public same hole, which is what led to the action now being money from one pocket to another, but discussing how taken by Governments. the remaining private sector in the banking system That split does not work in practice. However, the continues to benefit enormously from the guarantees legislation that we are going to introduce to require that the Government continue to give it, in the event larger banks to make what are colloquially referred to that it should fail. as living wills, whereby the banks look at their businesses and see how they could separate them out in a crisis, so Mr. Darling: Let me deal with the hon. Gentleman’s that regulators and Governments can decide what to do questions in turn. First, I explicitly mentioned tax losses if they got into trouble, is a much more productive way in my statement. [Interruption.] He is kind enough to forward. acknowledge that. I hope that I have answered all the hon. Gentleman’s I take a slightly different view on bonuses from the questions, because they are perfectly sensible questions hon. Gentleman, in that I do not think that they are to ask, but I think that we have taken the right decision. wrong in themselves. There is everything to be said for rewarding good behaviour or ensuring that the interests Several hon. Members rose— of the executives are the same as the public interest, which is what we are trying to do by ensuring that they Mr. Speaker: Order. Twenty-three Members are seeking cannot get bonuses for three years. Also, there is a to catch my eye, and we have another statement after distinction to be made between, on one hand, somebody this, followed by the Committee stage of an important who is paid large sums of money and, on the other, the constitutional Bill, so, as always, I am looking for many bank employees who work in branches or back single, short supplementary questions and for economical offices who are not on large salaries, and who in some replies. cases are paid pretty modest incomes. John McFall (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): Is That is why we said that people earning less than not the story here that RBS is in a worse state than £39,000 could get bonuses, but individually we are everyone thought last February, and that the Bank of talking about several hundred pounds, or perhaps up to Scotland aspect of HBOS was a basket case? The £2,000, which is nothing like the large figures that are message is that capital injection is necessary in order to commonly thought of as bank bonuses. That is especially stabilise the banks and to ensure potential returns for important at a time when, as I said in my statement, the taxpayer, but the Chancellor will be aware that there are many bank employees who are understandably lending is still a problem. I get hosts of e-mails and worried about what is happening, but who never got the messages from people saying that the demand is there, great bonuses. I am thinking of the many constituents but the banks are holding on to the capital. Does my of mine who were employed by RBS and, in particular, right hon. Friend agree that the lending agreements HBOS who were paid in shares that are now worth an should be made transparent, so that we can monitor awful lot less. We must ensure that we treat people on and track the lending in this country? lower, modest incomes properly. On Sir David Walker’s recommendations, which we Mr. Darling: I agree with my right hon. Friend on will get at the end of this month, I have said that we will that point. It is important that we get to the bottom of legislate to implement them. We will have to see what he all these lending problems, and I am sure that he, like comes up with at the end of the day, but I hope that we me, will know from constituency cases that it is helpful can accept his recommendations. to understand the difference between what a bank is saying and what a customer is saying. The more openness The hon. Gentleman mentioned lending. He has said there is, the better, and I have already referred to the again today—and on the “Today” programme at 10 to charter that the banks have signed up to. 9 this morning—that Lloyds has got out of its lending conditions. No, it has not: as I said in my statement, My right hon. Friend’s general point is also a perfectly both Lloyds and RBS have to stick with the lending good one. For all the bluster on the other side, this is a agreements that they have already reached. I do not necessary step. There are huge lessons to be learned, on want to labour the point that I made about lending, the part not only of Governments and regulators but of because I accept that there are still problems, but it is bank boards. The boards really must understand what important to look not just at the net position, but at they are doing, and it is manifestly obvious, certainly in what is happening in lending and accept that during a relation to HBOS and RBS, that rather too few questions recession it is understandable that businesses with big were asked in those boardrooms. exposure to the banks might want to reduce that. Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Why have On the breaking up of banks, the hon. Gentleman the authorities lurched from boom regulation, involving asked the wider question of whether we should divide too little cash and capital for excessive lending, to bust retail banks and investment banks, which we have discussed regulation, which wants too much cash and capital for before. The best illustration of the difficulties in that is too little lending? this. For obvious reasons, we had to step in and save Northern Rock, which was a very narrow, conventional Mr. Darling: I hope that we can avoid that sort of retail bank that lost money in pretty conventional ways. thing. We have to ensure that there is adequate capital, However, let us take Lehman Brothers, on the other and it is the FSA that has to assess the adequacy of hand, which was at the more exotic end of the market capital in each case. 727 Banking Reform3 NOVEMBER 2009 Banking Reform 728

John Reid (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I think that or four weeks. On unemployment—I think that the there will be a broad welcome for the restructuring of hon. Gentleman, given his Keynesian background, would the individual deals and of the banks themselves, because support me on this—I believe that it is up to the this will benefit consumers and taxpayers, but is the Government to do everything they can to try to get question of lending not absolutely crucial? Will my people back into work as soon as they lose their jobs. right hon. Friend assure me that, when the banks are That is particularly relevant to quite a lot of the banking restructured, the retail side that is set up anew will have redundancies that have been announced in the past the capacity to lend to small and medium-sized enterprises? 24 hours. If that is not to be the case, what measures will he Our objective must be to try to prevent such a crisis in take—including introducing transparency—to ensure the banking system from arising again, and I do not the continuity of lending and open commitment think that the split that the hon. Gentleman and the implications that have already been agreed? Perestroika hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) referred to is all very well, but we need a bit of glasnost too. would avoid the problem. When confronted with a Lehman or an AIG—the insurance company in America—I Mr. Darling: My right hon. Friend is right. It is cannot see how a Government could simply walk away important that new entrants to the market lend not just from the consequences of such a situation. to the mortgage market but to the SME sector. That sector is critical to the future of this country: it employs Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire) (Lab): We can the most people, we are likely to see a lot of growth in assess the value of the asset protection scheme as applied that area, and we must ensure that credit is flowing to RBS only if we know a little more about the due there. diligence that has been conducted and the sensitivities Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): Does not the that have been applied to that exercise. Will that be new contingent capital guarantee provided to RBS show published together with the other details of the scheme that the Governor’s concern about the amount of moral when it is made available to the House? hazard remaining in the system is still unanswered? Mr. Darling: The due diligence was conducted by the Mr. Darling: What it shows is that, given the nature regulator—the FSA—and we will publish the details of RBS and that it may need more capital, we and the once they are finalised. As the House will know, we have FSA believe that the £25.5 billion-worth of capital that set up an agency to run the asset protection scheme, we are putting in is the right thing to do. On the more which will of course be subject to audit by the NAO. general point, we are trying to get a safer, more stable banking system, because that is the only way in the long Stewart Hosie (Dundee, East) (SNP): The original run to get back to a situation in which people realise decision to merge the banks certainly reduced competition that there is inevitably a degree of hazard in the industry. on the high street; I hope that today’s announcement on What we want to avoid is taxpayers being stuck with the the disposal of parts of the banks’ retail networks will downside when things go wrong. help return competition to the high street. However, the statement also referred to the disposal, for example, of Mr. Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry, North-West) (Lab): Intelligent Finance from Lloyds and of the insurance Will the Chancellor confirm, on the question of lending, division of RBS, which are both important employers that the banks’ commitments are in respect of net in Scotland. May I ask the Chancellor to confirm that lending only? Will he also confirm that a condition of no disposal or sell-off of those divisions or business the bankers’ bonuses is that they will be tied to their arms will take place without the strongest possible banks achieving those levels of lending? guarantees about employment and decision making in Mr. Darling: I think that we need to develop this Scotland? further. In my statement, I said that the lending commitments will continue. Net lending is a measure of Mr. Darling: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that how much additional lending is going on, but it does employment and jobs are very important. As he rightly not give us the whole picture, particularly during a says, there are many employees working for parts of the recession when firms that can afford to do so are Lloyds banking group and RBS in Scotland, as I know inevitably paying down their money. The key point will very well. It is important to do everything that we can to be when the economy begins to recover. When firms protect jobs. It is worth bearing in mind that, had we start to grow, and to go to the banks for money, we must done nothing 12 months ago, those two banks would ensure that there is credit for creditworthy customers. have gone absolutely and there would have been huge job losses as a consequence. When it comes to disposals, Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Why I hope that we will do everything that we can to ensure cannot the Chancellor see the looming spectre of mass that employment is maintained in Scotland—and, indeed, unemployment in the next banking crisis, which will be in other parts of the country. The hon. Gentleman will even greater than that of 2008 unless he moves to be aware that RBS has, from time to time, said that it prohibit the commercial banks from indulging in investment wanted to sell Direct Line and Churchill in particular, banking? His repeated references to Lehman and Northern but for various reasons it did not do so. Inevitably, there Rock are completely irrelevant, as various commentators will be restructuring from time to time, but the jobs have pointed out. issue is very important. Mr. Darling: Actually, I thought that quite a few Jim Cousins (Newcastle upon Tyne, Central) (Lab): commentators had pointed out that the comparison The Chancellor is asking the British taxpayer to guarantee was relevant; as the hon. Gentleman knows, there has £280 billion-worth of RBS loans. How much of that is been quite a lot of debate about this over the past three outside Britain? 729 Banking Reform3 NOVEMBER 2009 Banking Reform 730

Mr. Darling: When the details are finalised, I intend Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): Does the to publish—I will lay a copy in the Library—the breakdown Chancellor wish to pass on the Prime Minister’s personal of where the loans are. My hon. Friend will then be able apology to taxpayers for arranging the shotgun wedding to see for himself. Let me make this general point. between Lloyds and HBOS? Understandably, hon. Members will be concerned about loans that are outside this country. The difficulty we Mr. Darling: If I were the hon. Gentleman, I should have is that, as I said, RBS is one of the largest banks in be very careful before saying such a thing. He may wish the world and a lot of what it did was overseas. to have a word with the hon. Member for Tatton Unfortunately, when it comes to the stability of the (Mr. Osborne), the shadow Chancellor, who made a bank and therefore of the rest of the system, it is not point of telling the country that on the day in question possible to make the intellectual distinction between he spoke to those involved on both sides, and said that what is here and what might be overseas. I confirm to the Conservatives fully supported that particular merger. my hon. Friend that I will publish those details. Malcolm Wicks (Croydon, North) (Lab): Given the Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) proud and honest record of the mutual building societies, (Con): The Chancellor has made it plain in respect of in contrast to what has happened in the commercial the restructuring of Lloyds and RBS that bids will be sector, why are the Government not more enthusiastic confined to the smaller competitor or new entrants to about options to enable and facilitate the remutualisation the market. Does not that mean that a lower price will of parts of the banking sector, perhaps starting with the be obtained than would have been the case if the ability decent part of Northern Rock? to bid were more widespread, so this approach will involve a loss to existing shareholders and, surely, to the Mr. Darling: As I said to my right hon. Friend the taxpayer? Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher), Mr. Darling: As I have said before, it is important I would certainly not be opposed to a proposal in that we get money back for the taxpayers. However, if relation to mutuality if one came along, but it would all the parts of the banks that were divested by RBS and have to come with sufficient funds. The other point is Lloyds were swallowed up by Barclays or Santander or that, as my right hon. Friend will recall, while it is true HSBC, we should end up with only half a dozen people that most of the trouble has been visited on the non-mutual in the business of lending. That is not enough. We sector, one or two mutuals did get into trouble. A lot of already have too few loan providers in this country. Of that has to do with the management rather than the course, potentially, we have the building societies and structure. I am not against mutuality—far from it. I some of the smaller banks, but at present, for obvious should like to see more of it, but it does need to be reasons, they are fairly quiet on the lending front. funded. Simply letting the bits be swapped from one bank to Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Does not yet another would be wrong. Besides—this is relevant to another expensive restructuring announcement highlight what was said by the hon. Member for Dundee, East the weaknesses in the tripartite system for supervising (Stewart Hosie)—questions would be raised over employment. banking and, indeed, monetary policy? I think that we are pursuing the right course, because it must be right for us to get new entrants into the market: Mr. Darling: No, it does not. I think that the hon. that must be good for the whole economy. Gentleman is rather missing the point. The reason why Mr. Michael Meacher (Oldham, West and Royton) RBS got into trouble was that the regulatory system (Lab): Given that this latest danegeld to the banks will needed to be tougher. It is clear that its then board did cost an extra £40 billion—in addition to the £50 billion not know what it was doing. already spent on bailing them out—why is my right hon. Friend so enamoured of this busted, out-of-control, Chris McCafferty (Calder Valley) (Lab): Does my casino-market model of banking which costs the taxpayer right hon. Friend agree that today’s statement from such gargantuan sums? Why does he not instead remutualise Lloyds represents significant progress towards its operation the three spin-offs, especially Northern Rock? That as a fully commercial enterprise? Does he agree that the would be infinitely less costly for the taxpayer and payment of a £2.5 billion fee to the Treasury for trading infinitely more secure for the depositor. benefits of the asset protection scheme last year represents a good deal for the taxpayer? Mr. Darling: I am not sure whether my right hon. Friend was in the House during Question Time, when I Mr. Darling: It represents the start of the process of was asked about Northern Rock on two occasions. Let ensuring that we get money back for everything that we me briefly repeat what I said then. I should be very have done. That is one of the objectives that I believe to happy to see a mutual option, but whoever came in be very important. would have to come in with sufficient capital to ensure that that was possible, because Northern Rock still Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale) (Con): Does the Chancellor owes quite a lot of money to the taxpayer. agree that many home owners have no choice about As for my right hon. Friend’s point about banking their mortgage providers because they have no equity, generally, he and I may disagree on this—as we have and therefore cannot switch to a more competitive from time to time—but I think that a properly functioning marketplace? Will he ensure that if institutions such as commercial banking system is quite a good thing. What Cheltenham & Gloucester and, perhaps, TSB in Scotland I want to do, though, is ensure that it is properly are sold to other lenders, their standard variable rates supervised, regulated and capitalised, and operating in will not increase, given that there is every prospect of a way that suits the interests of people in this country. their being bought by an institution with a higher SVR? 731 Banking Reform3 NOVEMBER 2009 Banking Reform 732

Mr. Darling: It is important that when the disposals Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): With the sale of take place and new companies come in there is as much 900 bank branches, might we see the Bank of China on communication as possible with people who have mortgages, our high streets? so that they can see what the position is and what choices are available to them. For example, I know that Mr. Darling: At this stage, I do not know who is likely Northern Rock is about to write to all its savers and to be bidding for these banks, but, obviously, we will mortgage holders explaining what is happening and need to make sure that whatever safeguards we think people’s options. To some extent it is inevitable in any are appropriate are in place. I make the general point, competitive market that different providers offer different however, that the British financial sector is what it is rates. As we go through this process, people need to be largely because it is pretty international and, provided told that they have a choice. Equally, if somebody does we have the right regulation and supervision, that will not want to go to a new bank, they always have the be good for us in the long run. option of staying with the bank they came from. As much as is possible, people must be able to make those Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): The Chancellor choices. said in his statement that before we could reach a binding agreement with RBS we needed to carry out Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): The country due diligence on the assets. What was the level of will be grateful that we have a Chancellor who puts the write-down after, as opposed to before, in respect of national interest ahead of tomorrow’s press release. RBS’s balance sheet on those assets? Companies involved in high science and high technology are finding it difficult to obtain money from the current Mr. Darling: I said that we and the FSA had to carry banking system. Will the Chancellor look into whether out diligence; the FSA has carried out that due diligence. we need either banks devoted to that or special instruments As to write-downs, they will appear in the bank’s accounts. within the banking system to guarantee access to finance? Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right about Canada has some of the biggest banks in the world, a lot of high-tech investment and the need to encourage Canadian banks undertake both investment and retail that. That is one of the reasons why I announced banking, and the most robust banking system among measures in the Budget and the Prime Minister has the G20 countries during the world recession has been announced measures through the innovation investment Canada’s. What lessons does the Chancellor draw from fund to try to help to fill that gap where the commercial that? banks are not operating. It is very important that we Mr. Darling: There are a number of points that could support that. Regardless of whether it is done through be made in relation to the Canadian economy, but on its the commercial banks or through Government help, I banking system I repeat the point that I do not think it want to keep the issue at the forefront of what we are is possible to make the neat distinction between a doing because our future depends on it. simple bank and a complex bank and to assume that one will get into trouble and the other will not. That is Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The Chancellor did why I take the view that we have to approach these not mention Bradford & Bingley, which might indicate things as they are, rather than as we might wish them his lack of interest in it, but he did mention Northern to be. Rock and measures to keep it lending and facilitate its return to the private sector. Will he explain the following Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ to people in my part of the world? Whereas Northern Co-op): There certainly will be concerns in Edinburgh Rock was a basket-case organisation that had been about what this means for jobs in my constituency and taking emergency funding for months and months and other constituencies in the city, and I welcome the is still a going concern, Bradford & Bingley, which he assurances that my right hon. Friend has given in that must admit was not in any way as bad a shape as respect. What opportunities are there to build on what Northern Rock at the time, was dismantled and is being is happening, and to strengthen and bring innovation to wound down. the financial sector in Edinburgh—for example, through the suggested re-establishment of a Scottish-based bank—as Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman is not quite right part of the restructuring of the banking system resulting about that. If Bradford & Bingley had been doing all from these announcements? right, it would not have reached the situation where its directors believed that it was no longer a going concern. Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend is right: both of us The Financial Services Authority had to step in because represent a city that is home to very large financial Bradford & Bingley got into difficulties; I am afraid institutions, many of which in the non-banking sector that that fact is incontrovertible. We took prompt action are doing very well; that is an important part of the in order to ensure that the part of the bank that was Edinburgh economy. Both of us are focused on the fact viable—the front end of it—was transferred to Santander. that, whatever happens, jobs are very important, because The rest of it and the management of the mortgages is for the most part these are good-quality jobs that something that we will have to handle in the longer provide good employment. As we restructure the banking term. How the hon. Gentleman can claim that there system—as we make it safer and better for people—jobs was no need for the bank to have any assistance whatever must be at the front of our minds, because that is very is very difficult to fathom. important for Edinburgh’s prosperity. 733 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Higher Education 734

Higher Education encourage the expansion of routes from apprenticeships and vocational qualifications to higher education, and 4.26 pm offer more higher education in further education colleges. Inadequate information, advice and guidance at school The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual still bars too many young people from fulfilling their Property (Mr. David Lammy): With permission, potential. We will work with the Department for Children, Mr. Speaker, I should like to repeat a statement made Schools and Families to rectify that. To meet the social by my right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of mobility goals in Alan Milburn’s report, all young State for Business, Innovation and Skills about “Higher people must be encouraged to strive for challenging Ambitions: the future of universities in a knowledge goals by teachers with ambitious expectations for them. economy”, which we are publishing today and placing Universities should also do more to reach out to young in the House Libraries. people with high potential. I want to make it clear that The last 10 years have been a decade of outstanding this Government will not dictate universities’ admissions achievement for higher education in this country. Talented procedures, nor undermine excellence. All students must people and enterprising institutions, backed by public continue to enter higher education on merit, but I investment and reform, have delivered the twin objectives believe that merit means taking account of academic of widening access and creating excellence. When the attainment, aptitude and potential. Many universities Government reformed the universities’ fees, we were are already developing their use of contextual data, and told that students, especially poorer students, would be we hope that all universities will consider incorporating put off applying. The exact opposite has occurred. A contextual data into their admissions processes to assess record number of students now attend university, and better the aptitude and potential of those from less- the gap between socio-economic groups has narrowed, privileged backgrounds. We are also asking Sir Martin not widened. For the first time, 1 million students will Harris, who heads the Office for Fair Access, to consult start their studies this year, and the quality of student vice-chancellors on improving access to the most selective academic achievement is high. Drop-out rates have universities, and he will report back in the spring. fallen by a fifth, and the number of firsts has doubled. The Government’s second objective is for universities This demonstrates that wider opportunity is not the to make a bigger contribution to economic recovery enemy of excellence, as opponents of change have alleged. and future growth. Knowledge-generation and stewardship We have a disproportionate share of the world’s in all subjects has public value and is important in its leading research universities. With just 1 per cent. of the own right. It is vital, in particular, to creating wealth, world’s population, we achieved 12 per cent. of the through the commercial application of knowledge and world’s scientific citations. Institutions across the sector preparing our people for employment. We have, therefore, have contributed to this success—the newer universities, decided to give greater priority than now to programmes alongside the older ones. Public funding for both research that meet the need for high-level skills, especially in the and teaching has increased by more than 50 per cent. in key areas of science, technology, engineering and maths. real terms since 1997. New contestable funding will provide universities with Universities have also developed new sources of income, the incentive to fulfil that priority. Areas where the and tuition fees are bringing £1.3 billion a year to boost supply of graduates is not meeting demand for key the quality of a student’s education. We should thank skills will be identified, and we will seek to rebalance universities and their teaching staff, administrators and this by asking the Higher Education Funding Council students for their outstanding record of achievement to prioritise courses that match the skills needs. We will over this last period. look to business to be more active partners with our The strategy we are publishing today aims to set a universities. Employers should fully engage in the funding course for an equally successful decade ahead, but new and design of university programmes, in the sponsoring times and new conditions require some fresh policy of students and in offering work placements. We believe choices and judgments. The coming decade will see that that is possible without compromising the universities’ public expenditure inevitably more constrained. Attracting autonomy and educational mission. the best students and researchers will become more Our third objective is to strengthen the research competitive. Above all, it will be a decade when our top capacity of our universities and its commercialisation. priority is to restore economic growth, and our universities The investment of the past decade has greatly strengthened need to make an even stronger contribution to this goal. the public science base, and we will continue to protect Able people and bright ideas are the foundation its excellence. That will require a greater concentration stones of a thriving knowledge economy. Producing of world-class research, especially in the high-cost scientific both is what universities are all about, so in the next disciplines. Research excellence is, of course, spread 10 years we will want more, not fewer, people in higher across a wide number of institutions and subjects. The education, and more, not less, quality research. challenge now is to develop new models of collaboration Our first objective, therefore, is to ensure that all who between universities and research institutions, so that have the ability to benefit can access higher education; the best researchers, wherever they are located, co-operate, there should be no artificial caps on talent. Our goal rather than compete for available funds. remains for at least 50 per cent. of 18 to 30-year-olds to The Government’s fourth objective is to promote enter university. We have made great progress in the quality teaching. The quality of education provided by number of people beginning a three-year degree at 18 or our universities is generally good, but it needs to be 19, but the challenge for the next decade is to offer a higher. I welcome the action that universities are taking wider range of study opportunities—part-time study, to raise standards in teaching and to strengthen the work-based study, foundation degrees and study while external examiner system. Students deserve nothing at home—to a greater range of people. So we will less. They will rightly expect to be better informed 735 Higher Education3 NOVEMBER 2009 Higher Education 736 about how they will be taught and about their career exercise? Will he confirm that the funding review need prospects. We want the Quality Assurance Agency for not be limited to the framework set out in the document Higher Education to provide more and clearer information published today? to students about standards in our universities. Students’ The Conservatives particularly welcome what the expectations and actual experience should be central to framework document says about the importance of the quality assurance process. teaching and of information for students and prospective Our fifth objective is to strengthen the role of universities students. Students are not just consumers, but when in their communities and regions as well as in the wider they are paying so much for their university education, world. Universities provide employment, enhance cultural we can well understand that they become consumerist life and offer many amenities to their surrounding and want information about what they will get in return communities. They shape and communicate our shared for the fees that they pay. values, including tolerance, freedom of expression and We, of course, have been working with Microsoft on civic engagement. We will support universities in a pro bono basis to ensure that such information is safeguarding these values. easily accessible for prospective students. Indeed, I called We will ask universities to continue to develop their for it to be available almost two years ago now. We are role in local economic development with the regional relieved that Ministers in the Department have caught development agencies and with business. The Government up with this agenda, which is extremely important. But will also do more to champion the international standing why is the QAA to be put in charge of releasing the of our universities as world leaders in the growing information? Students’ demand for more information market for higher education across borders and continents, may not be best met by that quango. Surely we need to including by e-learning. use far more imaginative ways to make the information available to students and prospective students—such as In the decade ahead, we will expect more from our via websites and social networking sites, or third-sector universities than ever before. They will need to use their and other organisations. I very much hope that the resources more effectively, reach out to a wider range of information will be available in a wide and accessible potential students and devise new income sources while way. maintaining excellence. As we look to our universities to do more, we will also need to look afresh at securing There also need to be strong incentives for good the funding that excellence requires and at how all who teaching, to match those that already exist for research. benefit from higher education—taxpayers, students and I want to ask the Minister about research and the the private sector—should contribute. STEM subjects. Of course, STEM subjects make a very important contribution to the growth of our economy, It was agreed in 2004 that the new fees structure in but it was disappointing that, in the context of research, England should be reviewed at this stage, and the the Minister referred in his statement to those subjects Government will make an announcement about that only. Is he not aware of the dynamism of our creative shortly, but I should stress that we will seek a properly industries, and of the crucial role also played by the arts and fairly balanced approach without placing an and humanities? Does he recognise that a dynamic and unreasonable or counterproductive burden on any single well-balanced economy needs to draw on the dynamism source of funding. and research capacity of university departments in the At the heart of the framework published today is a arts and humanities as well as those in STEM subjects? strong and creative vision of higher education, with A key theme in the statement was broadening access strong, autonomous institutions with diverse missions to university. We recognise the importance of that agenda, and a common commitment to excellence, a shared to which the Minister said reference was made in the framework for extending opportunity to all who can excellent report from Alan Milburn, whom we think of benefit, and our universities as a cornerstone of our as the right hon. Member for Darlington. However, I country’s cultural and social vitality and a centre of our think that the Minister has ignored some of the very future economic prosperity. I commend the statement sensible ideas in that excellent report, and embraced to the House. some rather risky ones. The report calls for a proper independent careers Mr. David Willetts (Havant) (Con): We welcome the service to take the place of Connexions. The Conservatives publication of the document and I am grateful to the strongly support that proposal, which we have advocated Minister for giving me advance sight of it. It has, of as well. The Minister came to the House to talk about course, been a long time coming. The whole exercise open access to university and social mobility, so it is a began in February 2008, so its gestation period matches great disappointment to find that his Department and that of a slightly premature elephant, I gather. Meanwhile, the DCSF have failed to embrace the proposal for an not only has the Secretary of State who launched the independent careers service. Many people believe that it exercise moved on but the whole Department from would improve access to information, and hence access which it was supposed to originate has been abolished. to university, for people from a wider range of backgrounds. We are rather relieved to see the document at all. Meanwhile, the Minister flirts with contextual data We should thank the experts from the world of higher for university admissions. I warn him to be very careful education who have contributed their reports to this in this territory. There are, of course, excellent initiatives, exercise. I very much agree with what the Minister said such as the one that links King’s college London with about the strength of our universities, in which we can Guy’s and St. Thomas’s hospitals. It takes students all take great pride. The next step, of course, is the from poorer backgrounds who have less good A-level funding review. Will the Minister confirm that all parts results and gives them a high-quality medical education. of the higher education sector, including students, will Does the Minister agree that that excellent initiative have an opportunity for their voices to be heard in that should be repeated? 737 Higher Education3 NOVEMBER 2009 Higher Education 738

[Mr. David Willetts] learning, contact hours, the style of teaching and other important information. That is the direction of travel. Students and their parents will lose confidence in the At the same time, it is important that we are more integrity of the university admissions system if it is used public-facing in the national conversation that we are for crude class warfare. We need to hear from the having about quality in the system. Minister how he believes that this contextual information It is a false debate for the hon. Gentleman to come to will be used. Today, it is students from households on the Dispatch Box and try to draw an either/or about modest incomes who are suffering the most from problems science, technology, engineering and mathematics as such as those afflicting the Student Loans Company. against art and humanities. It is not an either/or; it is an The Minister tells the House about broadening access “and” and “both”, but in underlining science, technology, to university, but does he not recognise that it is students engineering and mathematics, we recognise where we from the poorest backgrounds who are most desperate have come from. When we came to power, there was a when they cannot get their maintenance grant or loan? campaign called Save British Science because things Disabled students are having particular difficulty accessing had got so awful for scientists and students in the sector. their grants at the moment. Will the Minister take this We cannot have that if we are to come out of a downturn. opportunity to give us an update on that situation? We recognise that those subjects cost more. They are The Minister talks about progression from FE to HE, more expensive as a cohort of subjects than traditional which is also very important for broadening access. arts and humanities. Of course we support the digital However, will he confirm that, under this Government, economy, low carbon and all the other areas that depend the proportion of FE students progressing to HE has on the STEM subjects, but we are saying what industry fallen from 9 to 7 per cent? and the CBI have said to us—that this area is critical going forward. It is critical to international collaboration. Mr. Lammy: I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman It requires more funds. We must support it, and we are broadly welcomes what we have said today. I did not making funding contestable to ensure that those universities seek to lard the Government for all that has been that can add and do more are able to do so. We will be achieved. In fact, I congratulated the sector and students publishing our response to Alan Milburn’s report— on much that has been achieved, but it is important at [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Darlington this critical stage to contrast the past 10 years with a (Mr. Milburn)—[Interruption.] Absolutely; I mean my previous period in which the unit of resource was right hon. Friend, and I was very pleased to speak to cut—[Interruption.] Lecturers were paid less, students the Darlington constituency Labour party just a few put up with poor facilities, and our research fell behind months ago. international standards. This is an important juncture at which we seek to—[Interruption.] We will also be ensuring that our information, advice and guidance improve. That means a stronger role for Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. Ofsted; the new statutory guidance that has been issued; The hon. Member for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson) working, in some schools, on teacher attitude; identifying should not maintain a sedentary conversation when the students more appropriately; and universities, particularly Minister is speaking. the more selective institutions, reaching deeper into schools, which is why we have asked Sir Martin Harris Mr. Lammy: It is important to contrast that period to do the work that he has done. with the present, as we look forward. The hon. Gentleman has tried over the past few On the funding review, we always said that we would weeks to have his cake and eat it. He is part of a review; hold that when the first cohort of students come to the one week he speaks to one audience by indicating fee end of their studies. They did that this summer, so we levels of £7,000, which we have not forgotten; the next will set up the review, as the hon. Member for Havant week he attempts to speak to students by underlining (Mr. Willetts) knows, because we have had conversations their importance in the system; and today he plays to with him on Privy Council terms. I will make the the audience—we know which papers he is trying to announcement shortly. reach into—with his class warfare caricature on contextual The student dimension is central to that review. I data. University and attending university, as he knows would expect the review to take into account a range of and agrees, is about attainment, aptitude and potential. student opinion. We also said that the review should That is why we have a UCAS form—so students can look back at how the system has worked over the past indicate that aptitude and potential. few years, but it should also look forward. In looking However, we know that, for students from poorer forward, it must assist us as a nation better to support backgrounds, sometimes that potential is thwarted; and mature students and part-time students in particular, as I stand by those young people in constituencies such as we look at the student support mechanisms. mine, living on a housing estate and sharing a bedroom The hon. Gentleman is disparaging—I am surprised with four or five brothers or sisters, because if they to see how disparaging he is—of the appropriate quality achieve an A and two Bs, that achievement needs to be and inspection regime that exists for universities. I do recognised. I welcome what universities are doing in not know whether that is indicative of a Conservative that regard. The hon. Gentleman commends the proposal for an Ofsted arrangement for our universities, programme at St. George’s medical school, and that is but the Government have always sought to maintain the precisely what we are seeking to underline and support autonomy of the university sector while ensuring that throughout our sector. we are not complacent about standards and quality. I am very pleased that 13 of the most selective That is why we think better student information is so universities have come together to work out how they important going forward. Students need to know what can support each other on contextual data. The the employment prospects are when they embark on a Government have sought to support them, but we are course. They need to know the degree of independent not responsible for admissions. 739 Higher Education3 NOVEMBER 2009 Higher Education 740

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt with only a third of first-time entrants to higher education the right hon. Gentleman a second time, but this time coming from lower socio-economic backgrounds. The my concerns are in his direction. He has now taken use of contextual data in the selection process will be a longer to reply to the questions than it took to put them step in the right direction, but any plans to raise fees to him. Bearing in mind the strictures of Mr. Speaker will have a huge impact on whether many young people about the business that we have today, I hope that the even consider applying to university in the first place. right hon. Gentleman has concluded his reply to the On strategic subjects, I welcome any effort to fit this hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts), and that we country with the skills that we need to fulfil our economic can inject some extra urgency into the rest of the potential. However, modern languages is experiencing proceedings. funding cuts. It is important as a strategic subject in its own right, and it is currently in crisis in our schools. Mr. Lammy: Mr. Deputy Speaker, forgive me. Contextual Will the Government consider making modern languages data always gets me going—[Interruption.] The hon. a strategic subject when it comes to funding allocation? Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr. Evennett) Obviously universities have a very important role to says, “On the careers service.” We will respond to my play in working with business and aiding our economic right hon. Friend’s report in due course. recovery, but it should also be borne in mind, as the hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) mentioned, that Mr. David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside) (Lab): I higher education gives students important skills and welcome the framework, but may I suggest to my right this country long-term benefits, no matter what subject hon. Friend that in the forthcoming review, it will they are studying. always be better to have people—students and providers— More transparency, choice and information is of inside the tent than commenting from outside? In the course welcome, but I feel slightly uneasy about introducing lead-up to the review, will he, along with his right hon. the language of the consumer, particularly if it comes and noble Friend Lord Mandelson, reconsider the notion with a big price tag and students end up with a mountain of penalising universities that decide, at their own expense of debt. and off their own bat, to take additional students who would otherwise be excluded and, therefore, unable to Mr. Lammy: On the hon. Lady’s serious point, she take up the opportunity of social mobility, to which all will be aware of the Worton review on languages. I of us have been paying lip service? welcome that review. Professor Worton has recommended a new forum, which I am happy to chair, to try to ensure Mr. Lammy: I recognise what my right hon. Friend that university languages departments diversify and says, with his wealth of experience in these areas. He extend beyond traditional European languages, particularly might be aware that David Melville is looking particularly in developing Chinese and some of the Asian languages at the situation that arose at London Metropolitan over the next while. I welcome that and we will continue university, where this has been a broader issue that may to consider the issue. have bigger implications for the sector. My right hon. On the political points that the hon. Lady raises, the Friend is right to raise the matter, and we are looking Liberal Democrats’ position is constantly changing. I into it. ask her to recognise that the leader of her party has changed their position and is flip-flopping between Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I, too, thank the Minister whether they are for tuition fees or against them, and I for prior sight of the statement. note the partisan nature of how they are seeking to do It looks to me as though the educational cat has this. The point is this: the Lib Dems can abolish tuition escaped the bag. In almost the last paragraph of the fees only if they are content to cut numbers; they statement, the groundwork for raising university tuition cannot have both. They cannot challenge us on widening fees seems to have been laid. I was shocked this morning participation and then stand by their position on tuition when the Secretary of State attempted to defend this fees. Government’s introduction of tuition fees as a “bold and successful” move. In what way is saddling graduates Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does with nearly £10,000-worth of tuition fees bold and my right hon. Friend agree that if he had been one of successful? Of course students have the right to have my students and presented this statement as an essay high expectations, but that must not be used as an many years ago, when I was a university lecturer, I excuse to raise fees. The Secretary of State talked about would have said that it was a bit vague in terms of what students being more demanding, and rightly so, but it is trying to deliver? If this is the future of universities— why is the Minister apparently blocking the National there is some very good stuff here—can we be sure that Union of Students from being represented on the funding the Government, if re-elected, will, year on year, increase review panel? Perhaps he could comment on that. the amount of money invested in this absolutely vital Worst of all is the confirmation that the funding resource of our economy? review will not report until after the election. Such collusion between the official Opposition and the Mr. Lammy: I know that my hon. Friend is a quick Government will only fuel suspicion that the two parties reader, but I cannot believe that he has managed to are set to raise fees, doing nothing for widening participation consume the entire report quite so quickly. I promise and driving up social mobility in this country. The him that there is meaty detail in the document. He is a Minister talked about widening participation and valiant campaigner for funding for higher education, universities being engines of social mobility, which is and I hope that he knows that the Government recognise welcome. However, it should be remembered that his that it is a key component of our economy and needs to Government’s record on widening participation is woeful, continue to be properly resourced. 741 Higher Education3 NOVEMBER 2009 Higher Education 742

Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): There is a Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): I welcome great deal to welcome in the statement and also some the statement, particularly the part that is likely to lead things on which we need to encourage the Government to more science and engineering graduates in the long to go further. I am particularly pleased to read in the term. Does my right hon. Friend agree that sometimes report about the inadequate information, advice and the problem is not the lack of available places and guidance at school to which the Minister referred. The courses for science and engineering so much as the lack Government’s recent response to the report of the then of available students who want to study those subjects? Select Committee on Innovation, Universities, Science What more can we do to encourage more young people and Skills on the subject was somewhat disparaging and to take an interest in those subjects and become science dismissive of the concerns expressed. They have an and engineering graduates? opportunity to redeem themselves in a few weeks when they respond to the report of my Committee, the Select Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend is right, and we continue Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, which to work with colleagues in the DCSF and with Aimhigher made exactly the same point. I hope that they will flesh associates, who are young people themselves and are out the Minister’s point when they do so, because it is returning into schools and inspiring a new generation extremely important. of students. We work also with the professional bodies such as the Engineering Council, which has a range of Mr. Lammy: May I commend to the hon. Gentleman schemes—I can think of a particular one in south the relevant work that was published last week by the London—and will hopefully produce a new generation Department for Children, Schools and Families? It is an of ethnic minority students who would previously not excellent contribution to ensuring that schools are equipped have considered science as being for them. We are also to be better in terms of the information, advice and ensuring that business is better connected to schools, guidance they offer over the next decade. There will be a through our academies and a range of programmes role for Ofsted, an identifiable person in a school who is such as our diplomas. That will inspire a generation of responsible for careers and new guidance for schools to young people with the throughput and desire to progress follow, as well as the work that I have outlined today, in science, technology, engineering and mathematics. which Martin Harris has set up. I hope that we will continue to reach further in considering how schools Alistair Burt (North-East Bedfordshire) (Con): But can better support students to make choices in higher to follow the point made by the hon. Member for South education. Thanet (Dr. Ladyman), is the Minister not more concerned about the lack of connection between universities and Mr. James Plaskitt (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): schools in relation to science? That lack of connection I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and particularly means that a number of science faculties now have to the progress that we have been able to make as a result run remedial courses for their undergraduates, and that of the 2003-04 changes in respect of widening access. In an increasing number of good-quality science courses the forthcoming review of fees, will there be a presumption are filled by an over-proportion of overseas students, against a completely unrestricted fees market, which because the offering being made by schools in terms of would make it impossible to maintain that progress on science undergraduates is not meeting the needs and widening access? requirements of universities. Does he not have to do more to close that gap between schools and universities Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend puts his point well. He to ensure that we get the science graduates we need? will recognise that there are a range of views about how Mr. Lammy: I do not recognise that caricature, because best to get funding into the system. He mentions one if the hon. Gentleman looks at the recent results at way, but the Government set their face against it when A-level science and at the cohort of young people doing they capped fees at the £3,000 mark back in 2003-04. science, he will see that both are up, never mind the number who take up postgraduate study, which has Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): The Government doubled since the previous Administration. Of course have correctly identified that the expansion of the higher there is more we can do, particularly in relation to triple education sector in recent years has partly been driven science, and the DCSF is doing that, but I do not by foundation degrees, but the really successful model recognise the caricature that he has presented. lies in the US with community colleges. Is the Minister aware that community college students are generally Laura Moffatt (Crawley) (Lab): It is good to hear my funded under a tripartite system, with a third of the right hon. Friend reiterate this Government’s commitment costs coming from business, a third from the state and a to increasing participation. Does he agree that it is vital third from the individual? Is that financial model under that we press ahead with the innovative schemes of active consideration by him and his Department? university centres in new places, such as the one in Crawley, which was one of the last six selected? It is a Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman is right that there fantastic innovation, under the leadership of Brighton is much to commend the college system in the United university, and it is co-located on a further education States, but there is also much to commend the role of site to exploit the talent of new people who want to get both further education in this country and the post-1992 into a university. universities, which have been right at the centre of extending participation and account predominantly for Mr. Lammy: May I congratulate my hon. Friend on the 54 per cent. of students in our system who are her advocacy of a new university centre in her area? At mature students, which is more than there are 18-year-old its heart, it is about extending higher education to a undergraduates. Yes, we can commend the States and cohort of young people and adults who previously look harder at the system there, but let us recognise that would never have gone on to it. That is why we launched we have some real gems in our own country. the scheme. I commend what has been achieved in her 743 Higher Education3 NOVEMBER 2009 Higher Education 744 constituency and the wider consortium that has come “HE serves students best when it progressively and incrementally together. I hope that she will be pleased at the emphasis weans them off direct teaching”. that the Government have placed on mature students in On this view, presumably the most effective university is the framework announced this afternoon. the one that teaches least or indeed not at all. If that is the official view, is it surprising that people feel that Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): The Minister has teaching is losing out to research, that junior staff often verbally painted a beautiful picture of the future of feel dumped on by senior staff in teaching terms, and further and higher education through a wish list of that many students feel that they are not getting the what he wants for the future, but without offering an teaching to which they are entitled? explanation as to how it might be achieved. I hope that that is in the documents, but he certainly has not Mr. Lammy: The QAA has sought to underpin one of explained it today. The only thing that was missing was the key values of higher education, not only in this motherhood and apple pie. My question is this: does he country but in the world, and that is the principle of accept that his Government have actually shut down independent learning. A sixth former is different from social mobility during their time in office, to the great an undergraduate student in the sense that the latter’s disadvantage of the least advantaged in society? learning is, yes, about teaching, but it is also about what Mr. Lammy: I rather like motherhood, and I rather they engage in independently as they make their path like apple pie, but I must say that the hon. Gentleman towards research. Across higher education, different knows a lot better in relation to social mobility. He mission groups and institutions place different emphasis remembers those young people abandoned to the old on that, and I think especially of those institutions that youth training scheme. He knows that the achievement bring the best out of students who might not have of young people in the poorest constituencies in the recognised that higher education was for them. The country was dire because of underfunding in FE and journey is about independent learning, and I disagree schools, and poor resources for universities. with the caricature that gives the impression that higher education is the same as school. That is why we reject a Of course, we continue to stretch for more in terms of national curriculum and the idea that it is about contact social mobility. That is why we asked my right hon. with lecturers and academics: it is not. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) to do his work and why we have set out to do more, but let me tell the hon. Gentleman that in every single constituency Mr. Paul Truswell (Pudsey) (Lab): Is my right hon. in the country, participation has gone up. In the poorest Friend aware that Leeds university is planning to shed constituencies—the Hackneys, the Tottenhams and the 700 staff? What impact does he fear that that might Lambeths, and the inner cities of Manchester, Birmingham have on its ability to meet the objectives that he has so and Liverpool—participation has not only gone up lucidly and eloquently outlined in his statement? since 1997, but the number of students has increased by more than 100 per cent. Mr. Lammy: I am not aware of the individual circumstances of that institution, but my hon. Friend Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): My right will recognise that universities are autonomous and it is hon. Friend mentions the role of the Quality Assurance for university leaderships and their boards to make Agency. Some time ago, I received a communication assessments of the appropriate balance between staff from it which said: and pupils and the faculty mix at their institutions. 745 3 NOVEMBER 2009 746

Point of Order Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity of Habitation) 5.12 pm Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): On a No. 23) point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As you know, we have a very busy afternoon. We have just had two statements. In the first, the exchanges between the Front 5.13 pm Benchers took more than half an hour. That is perhaps excusable and understandable on a complex area of Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): I beg to move, policy. In the second statement, the exchanges between That leave be given to bring in a Bill to specify the minimum the Conservative Front-Bench spokesman and the Minister distances permissible between onshore wind turbines of certain alone took 27 minutes, and I have to say that it was dimensions and the nearest habitation; and for connected purposes. mostly the Minister to whom we were listening, until When Oscar Wilde wrote that you helpfully intervened. Is there any way of reminding “Conversation about the weather is the last refuge of the Ministers that a leisurely approach is not always appreciated unimaginative”, when a statement is being made to the House? he obviously had not anticipated the controversy that onshore wind farms would generate. Bearing that in Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Some mind, I hope that any hon. Member planning to oppose spokesmen from the Front Benches have a learned this Bill will listen carefully to what I am about to say, approach to matters, which may take a little longer. The and not base any remarks that they may have planned Chair is conscious of time, and Mr. Speaker has underlined on false assumptions. In that spirit, at the outset I must to Ministers on numerous occasions that there is an make it clear that this is a bipartisan proposal: the informal tariff—it applies equally to Opposition Front sponsors of this Bill therefore reflect the political balance Bench spokesmen. Today, one in three managed to of the House, with more Government than official conform. It is important that we ensure the maximum Opposition supporters. However, it does not, as far as I time for Back Benchers, especially on a crowded day am aware, represent the official position of any major like this. I will not take up any more time, therefore, in party—but obviously I hope that that may change. repeating the obvious. Secondly, at this late stage in the Session the Bill has no chance of becoming law. I introduce it simply to stimulate an important debate. Thirdly, the Bill is deliberately modest in scope, and deals simply with the minimum distances that wind turbines should be away from houses. It has a simple purpose. Settling the issue would help local communities, planning authorities and, paradoxically, the wind energy industry itself. At the heart of our politics we should place the ethic of reciprocity—the idea that everyone has a right to just treatment, and a responsibility to ensure justice for others. Put more simply, that means “Do as you would be done by”. Sometimes, of course, we have to balance the different rights of competing groups. For example, a new high-speed rail line will be fought by communities close to its route, whatever the wider benefits that it brings. It is then that politicians have to choose. A visit to the home of two of my constituents in the small settlement of Sheriffs Lench in the vale of Evesham started the process that led me to this Bill. When I saw just how close to their home ScottishPower Renewables plans to put a 125-metre wind turbine, as part of a larger wind farm plan for the area, I realised that I would not like that done to me. The turbines proposed are among the largest ever constructed in England. They will be half as high again as Big Ben and only a little lower than the London Eye—and in the open countryside that is huge. It is roughly equivalent to a 40-storey building. In the case of this wind farm, the closest of those massive structures would be only 508 metres from the nearest home, with many more homes about 600 metres from a turbine. That is too close. I ask myself whether the wider social good is served by building such enormous renewable energy sources so close to the homes of hundreds of my constituents, or whether the sacrifice being asked of them, and the damage to be done to a beautiful part of the vale of Evesham, is too great. 747 Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity 748 of Habitation) of Habitation) I also noted that the turbines in Worcestershire would My Bill would specify minimum distances between not be allowed in a similar location in Germany, or in turbines of certain dimensions and the nearest house. I large areas of Spain and Italy. Denmark is one of the propose that there should be no specific restriction on most successful countries in the development of onshore turbines below 25 metres in height, while wind turbines wind power—and I understand that if Danish rules up to 50 metres high should not be located closer than applied, the turbines in my constituency could be built, half a mile to a home. Larger wind turbines up to but many householders would become liable for 100 metres high should be at least a mile away, and the compensation for loss of property value. England and largest—those above 100 metres—should be at least Wales stand apart from the developing pattern of regulation one and a half miles from any home. There would be an of onshore wind on mainland Europe. Indeed, in Scotland, important exception where the residents of homes within too, guidelines specifying what is acceptable are already the buffer zone agreed to the construction of the turbines. in place. They might do so because they stood to gain financially I concluded that the disadvantages of the wind farm from the construction—something that the industry proposed for my constituency outweigh the likely benefits. should look at more carefully—because they had received If I felt that way, I had to do something, and the Bill compensation for loss of amenity or the reduced value that I am asking leave to present today is that something. of their homes, or simply because they supported the My Bill has extraordinary levels of support around the application. country. Communities from the west country to Cumbria, I agree that the figures that I have proposed are from Gloucestershire to Derbyshire, from County Durham arbitrary, but all rules are to some extent arbitrary. Why to East Anglia, and of course from Worcestershire, have not have a speed limit of 75 mph on motorways? Why bombarded me, and their own MPs, with emails. have different ages for the legal purchase of different I emphasise that the Bill is not a covert attack on any products or for beginning certain activities as young renewable energy technology, nor does it have its roots people grow up? We have to draw the line somewhere, in any doubts about the causes and consequences of and the limits that I have set out are where I propose the global warming. I am convinced by the consensus that line should be drawn for wind turbines. I am a traditionalist, human activity has at least added significantly to the hence the use of miles. However, I would happily accept scale of climate change, and has been the major driver an amendment to make the distances 1 km, 1.5 km and of it. In any event, even the most sceptical critic of the 2 km respectively, if that is the price of making progress. climate change consensus would have to admit that the [Interruption.] I apologise to my right hon. and hon. world’s fossil fuels are running out, and that they are Friends. coming from increasingly unstable areas of the globe. However, my Bill would also make possible a different In the short run, there is probably enough reliable gas approach, which is used in some European countries to see us through, if we build enough gas storage in the and which some hon. Members might prefer. That UK. Investment in new nuclear power can also make a would mean specifying set-back distances from turbines big contribution to keeping the lights on over the slightly in proportion to their total height. In other words, the longer term. However, diversity is the key to our energy distance from the base of the turbine to the nearest security, and that diverse generating portfolio must home should be at least a fixed multiple of the height of include a significant proportion of renewable sources. the turbine to the tip of the blades. The distance would The UK is extraordinarily well placed to exploit other then depend on the multiple. The 125-metre turbines renewable technologies, as well as wind, such as the proposed for my constituency would have to be set back power of the oceans—tidal, wave and tidal flow, for 16 times their height to achieve a separation of 2 km, example. In my view, we have foolishly underestimated while a smaller 100-metre turbine, using the same multiple, the role that solar-thermal technology can play in providing would be set back 1.6 km. A smaller multiple would hot water in homes, and we are late in introducing produce smaller distances. smart meters to reduce demand. I am clear that there must be a reasonable space We must now invest in every available renewable between such giants and local communities. That is the technology and see which will work best for us in the simple, and I hope uncontroversial, purpose behind my future. That includes onshore wind turbines, but only in Bill. It would add to planning law, not detract from it, the right places. If other technologies can help us to and all the other tests and protections, whether they meet our challenging renewable energy targets, and if relate to noise, environmental impact or sites of special wind power itself is still the subject of innovation—with scientific interest and so on, would remain in place, so smaller, more powerful, less visually intrusive turbines we would not see a wind farm on top of the Malverns, in development—it is right that we take, in the short or Bredon hill in Worcestershire, for example. term at least, a precautionary approach to the siting of I have heard the simplistic objection that my Bill is onshore wind turbines very close to homes in England intended to kill onshore wind development in England. and Wales. That argument is an Aunt Sally, and is simply untrue. There are different concerns about wind farms. Noise, Indeed, by being much clearer about an important especially low-frequency noise, the flicker effect and the aspect of planning requirements, my Bill would enable resulting health implications are just some of those developers to bring forward proposals for more appropriate concerns. I have been impressed by the personal accounts locations with much greater confidence. My Bill would of such concerns in many of the hundreds of e-mails mean that arguments about distance and local acceptability that I have received. However, although the science may could be dealt with more objectively and speedily by not yet be settled on those matters, the visual intrusion local planning authorities. Currently, only around a of wind turbines is a matter of objective fact. It is that quarter of all onshore wind farm applications succeed. visual intrusion that my deliberately narrow Bill seeks That proportion could increase significantly if there primarily to address. were clear guidelines. 749 Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity 750 of Habitation) of Habitation) [Peter Luff] Gentleman’s proposed limit for a small turbine of 800 metres—I have translated that—away from any My Bill is designed to help communities that feel dwelling. So the Bill would kill that project. threatened and powerless in the face of intrusive planning Our local and national carbon emissions reduction applications, but it would also speed up the planning goals would remain intact, however. Our carbon budgets, process for well-sited wind farms. The Bill should help newly agreed in the Climate Change Act 2008, which householders and communities, local authorities—which was supported by those on the Conservative Front currently lack adequate guidance on wind turbine Bench, would still be there. If the Bill were to cut off locations—and the wind farm industry to pursue the wind turbine projects such as the one for Springfield right sites. My Bill represents an opportunity to stimulate, park, and doubtless many others all over the country and more importantly to resolve, an important debate. I that were anywhere near people’s houses, that would commend it to the House. increase the pressure on rural areas. Where would we put the displaced wind power if we wanted to maintain 5.23 pm the contribution of wind power to achieving our renewables Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I oppose the targets? Bill, although I should make it clear that I do so in a No part of Springfield park is less than 800 metres personal capacity as an environmentalist, not as a from a dwelling; in fact, I think that we would be spokesman for my party—[Interruption]—asisthe pushed to find any part of my constituency that is. The requirement with ten-minute Bills. only part that might achieve that condition would be in Although it looks at first sight like traditional the Cotswolds area of outstanding natural beauty, where Conservative opposition to wind power, the Bill that the even I would hesitate to support a wind turbine. But hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Peter Luff) proposes those are exactly the kinds of areas that would qualify would in fact achieve the perverse result of increasing for approval if the Bill were ever to see the light of day. the pressure on rural areas, including areas of outstanding I can cite many examples of local Liberal Democrats natural beauty and national parks, to accept wind turbines supporting wind power, from Leeds to Lewes, from that local people would oppose. It is a Bill that would harm Cornwall to the Orkneys, and from Cheltenham to the prospects for wind energy in many places where it is Islington, but I would never lecture local Liberal Democrats, supported by local people, and it would deepen the who know their area best, on whether they should undermining of democratic local planning procedures. support every proposed wind turbine everywhere. I am In the end, local people should decide. We in this place sure that many hon. Members could cite examples of should not commit our usual error of creating inflexible insensitive energy companies trying to push through and—in the hon. Gentleman’s own words—arbitrary wind turbines in inappropriate locations. However, I rules that will do more harm than good. can see the supporters of such companies rubbing their Let me illustrate the problem with an example that is hands with glee if the Bill became law. “Surely local literally close to home. Cheltenham’s first wind turbine campaigners shouldn’t be allowed to get away with is likely to be placed in Springfield park, in the Springbank opposition to this wind farm,” they would argue. “After area of my constituency. Planning permission is being all, it complies with the Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity applied for. It will not be big—a bit less than 18 metres of Habitation) Act 2010, which was promoted by the tall, to the tip of the highest blade. It will generate Member for Mid-Worcestershire in his attempt to, as he 9,500 kWh of electricity a year, and save more than put it, settle the matter.” Ironically, the hon. Gentleman’s 4 tonnes of CO2 emissions a year. Perhaps more name could end up being used in planning inquiries importantly, it will follow the good example of Danish more in support of insensitive wind power applications wind energy by being owned by a community organisation, than against them. the Hesters Way Neighbourhood Project. The project Why does the hon. Gentleman think that these inflexible was set up to support regeneration in one of the least distance limits are required? In his speech, he was rather well-off parts of Cheltenham, and the wind turbine will vague. He spoke again and again about visual intrusion. shave the best part of £1,000 a year off its electricity Unlike him, however, I do not think that that is an bill, allowing it to spend more money on its other work objective fact; it is subjective and it ought to be up for in the community. discussion by local people. He also mentioned flicker, The turbine will be safe and virtually silent, with no but that is a very short-range phenomenon. It is not noisy gearbox. It also has a rather striking design. I even an issue in Springfield park, where the turbine will concede that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but in be only 60 metres from people’s houses. general, I think that most wind turbines are rather The hon. Gentleman also mentioned health issues, graceful, and easily more attractive than the average but the NHS website quotes Dr. Neil Todd, who has pylon. The Springbank wind turbine has so far encountered researched the health impacts of wind turbines and very little opposition, but whether it receives community can find nothing to object to. On the website support should surely be a matter for the people of stoplenchwickwindfarm.org.uk, the hon. Gentleman is Springbank and their elected representatives. We should quoted as saying: not contemplate a Bill that would rule out the project at “It is my limited intention to raise the aesthetic and environmental a stroke— concerns associated with large wind turbines”. Peter Luff: It would not. He goes on to say, as he has just told the House: “I happen to be a keen exponent of alternative and renewable Martin Horwood: It would, because it would impose energy sources”— on planning law—not on planning guidance, local area except, presumably, in his own constituency— partnerships or local area policy—a rule that that turbine “but feel strongly that onshore wind farms are only appropriate should not be allowed, because it is about 60 metres where their visual and environmental impact on open countryside from the nearest dwelling. That is well inside the hon. is acceptable.” 751 Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity 3 NOVEMBER 2009 752 of Habitation) However, we have yet to hear what these environmental Constitutional Reform and Governance concerns are. How do they reduce with distance? On Bill (Programme) (No. 2) this, the website and the hon. Gentleman are absolutely silent. All the environmental organisations that I know, 5.32 pm including the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor support the appropriate use of wind power. When they (Mr. Jack Straw): I beg to move, have voiced concerns—as the RSPB has done—they That the Order of 20 October 2009 (Constitutional Reform have not, so far as I know, objected to any proximity to and Governance Bill (Programme)) be varied as follows: human habitation. Rather, they have objected to the possible impact on sensitive wildlife habitats and natural 1. Paragraphs 2 to 4 of the Order shall be omitted. environments. Human beings, of course, can speak for 2. Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be themselves. Is that not really the point? completed in four days. 3. The proceedings shall be taken on each of those days as The hon. Gentleman has tried to find a way to shown in the first column of the Table and in the order there placate the growing trend of opposition to wind power. shown. If he means what he says about local people being able 4. Each part of those proceedings shall (so far as not previously to overturn the restrictions that the Bill would impose, concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the time specified in it will probably have no impact whatever, in which case relation to it in the second column of that Table. it is purely symbolic, sending a message. On the hon. TABLE Gentleman’s behalf, whatever his good intentions, it Time for conclusion of sends a clear message of opposition to wind power—our Proceedings proceedings most promising form of renewable energy. First day The message that I, and many other hon. Members Clauses 1 and 2, Schedule 1, The moment of interruption opposed to this Bill, such as my hon. Friend the Member Clauses 3 to 19, Schedule 2, on the first day. for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes), Clause 20, new Clauses the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) relating to Part 1, new and many others, want to send is one of support for Schedules relating to Part 1. clean renewable energy, support for wind power when it Second day is appropriate and well supported, and support for local Clauses 33 and 34, new The moment of interruption people who know best what is right for their area, and Clauses relating to Part 5, new on the second day. do not want inflexible and arbitrary rules imposed on Schedules relating to Part 5, Clause 35, Schedule 5, them from on high. Clause 36, new Clauses I oppose this Bill, but I am pleased to say that it is relating to Part 6, new very unlikely ever to succeed, so I shall not trouble the Schedules relating to Part 6, House by pressing for a Division. Clauses 37 to 43, Schedule 6, Clause 44, Schedule 7, Clauses Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. 45 to 49, Schedules 8 and 9, Ordered, Clause 50, new Clauses That Peter Luff, Sir Alan Beith, Mr. Michael Clapham, relating to Part 7, new Schedules relating to Mr. Geoffrey Cox, David Davis, Natascha Engel, Mr. Mike Part 7, Clauses 51 and 52, new Hall, David Maclean, Lembit Öpik, Ms Dari Taylor, Clauses relating to Part 8, new Phil Wilson and Mr. Anthony Wright present the Bill. Schedules relating to Part 8. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Third and fourth days Friday 6 November, and to be printed (Bill 157). Clauses 21 to 25, new The moment of interruption Clauses relating to Part 2, new on the fourth day. Schedules relating to Part 2, Clauses 26 and 27, Schedule 3, Clauses 28 to 31, new Clauses relating to Part 3, new Schedules relating to Part 3, Clause 32, Schedule 4, new Clauses relating to Part 4, new Schedules relating to Part 4, Clauses 53 to 56, remaining new Clauses, remaining new Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill.

The basic decision on the programming of the Committee stage was determined on 20 October, when the House agreed that there should be four days on the Floor of this House. That programme motion was agreed without Division, which I took as general approbation, following discussions among the usual channels, for having four such days of debate. This programme motion provides more detail, hopefully for the convenience of the House. It proposes that part 1 be debated today. On the second day, it proposes that we deal with part 5, which corrects 753 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 754 Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) [Mr. Jack Straw] constitutional debate concerning Wales and, indeed, Northern Ireland, I have observed that sometimes it is an important anomaly in respect of the Human Rights only when legislation has been implemented that we Act 1998 and the Scotland Act 1998 following the perceive deficiencies, weaknesses and aspects that we Somerville judgment by the Law Lords; with part 6, might wish to improve. Has the Lord Chancellor considered which deals with courts and tribunals; with part 7, allowing further debates once the Bill has been which deals with the National Audit Office; and with implemented—should it become an Act—to ensure that part 8, which relates to transparency. Days three and any unforeseen or unintended consequences are rectified four are then assigned for part 2 on treaties, part 3 on in the future? I think that that is very important when it the House of Lords, part 4 on protests, part 9 on final comes to constitutional changes. provisions and any new parts of the Bill. Lest there be any suggestion that the measures in this Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman has raised an important Bill, which is by any standards medium-sized—it is point. I agree that this Bill in particular should be certainly not a long Bill—have not been subject to subject to proper arrangements for post-legislative scrutiny. proper scrutiny, I have brought with me the 19 reports I will write to him, and will make the letter available. that preceded this legislation. [Interruption.] The hon. Because there was a new Administration in 1997 and Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) says that she we regarded Scottish and Welsh devolution as high remembers them. priorities, there was not the same provision for draft Discussions on the civil service, dealt with in part 1, Bills and detailed consideration by Select Committees have been continuing for a very considerable period. as there has been for the measures before us. It was Indeed, they go back to a draft Civil Service Bill published necessary for us to proceed at that pace, but in a better in 2004. We then saw proposals in the “Governance of world it would have been to everyone’s advantage to Britain” documents and a statement in July 2007. A have had more time. draft Bill was then published, which went before the If I manage to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, Joint Committee on the draft Constitutional Renewal I shall of course respond to questions that are raised. Bill, as well as before the Public Administration Select Committee. The Government have taken both those Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I must inform Committee reports very seriously, and their comments the House that Mr. Speaker has not selected the amendment are reflected in the drafting of the Bill. The same applies in the name of the right hon. Member for Sheffield, to the other parts of the Bill. The issue of Somerville Hallam (Mr. Clegg). arises from concern expressed—not least by the Scottish 5.39 pm Executive—about the anomaly that had been created. I am glad that we are now able to correct it, as it has been Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): I entirely the subject of extensive discussion in the House and accept the Secretary of State’s comment that the House outside. did not divide on the programme motion at the end of Second Reading, but he can see for himself what has The part relating to the ratification of treaties was already been tabled for consideration over the next two also the subject of detailed proposals that were considered days, and it clearly shows that there will be insufficient by the Joint Committee and others. We shall deal with time for full consideration. Moreover, this is a constitutional the part concerning the House of Lords on days three Bill, and not such a long time before the Labour and four. I do not suggest that it has been endorsed on Government were elected in 1997 not only would such a an all-party basis, but it has been the subject of two Bill have been considered on the Floor of the House, periods of all-party discussion, and of a Green Paper but that would have been without any guillotine or any and a White Paper which I published in 2007 and 2008. end date for its coming out of Committee, and therefore Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): Since Second Reading, all Members would have had the opportunity to participate have there been any further discussions with the Opposition and say what they wished about what is, even in its about their proposal for the appointment of temporary curtailed form, a very important piece of legislation. peers? The Lord Chancellor seemed to favour the idea. How are we to do justice to this legislation when it is already apparent—I am not criticising the Secretary of Mr. Straw: There has been no formal discussion of State for this, but he can now see it for himself—that we the matter, although informal representations have been have no possibility whatever of getting through the made. As I believe I said on Second Reading, I understand clauses for consideration on the civil service in the the proposal and it is being considered in Government, course of today’s business, particularly as the time is and we shall have time to return to it. now 20 minutes to 6 and the business will be finished by The part of the Bill that deals with courts and tribunals 10 o’clock? Having looked at what is already down for has been the subject of widespread approbation. Finally, consideration on day two, I strongly suspect that there there are the parts relating to national audit and the will be insufficient time then as well. transparency of Government financial reporting to We must also face up to the fact that, because the Parliament. The national audit proposals follow on Government have imposed internal guillotines, as is from a draft Bill from the National Audit Office. their current practice, we will probably come across the As the Bill was published three months ago, it cannot most controversial parts of the legislation at the very be said that it has been slipped before the House with end of the process, whereas if the Government had left no opportunity for its provisions to be discussed properly. the consideration of business so that knives did not fall, the House could have adjusted to make sure that it Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I have no gave the desired amount of consideration to those parts doubt that there has been extensive consultation up to it decided were most important. After all, some interesting this point, but, having engaged in a large amount of ideas are floating around; the right hon. Member for 755 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 756 Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) rightly raised the idea of our opportunity—and, if I may say so, the Secretary of term peers, but I can foresee already that we will not State’s opportunity. He has had the chance to see the have sufficient time to give that the proper scrutiny and sort of amendments that have been tabled, and it is consideration that it requires. pretty clear that a debate is developing over a wide range of issues. None of the amendments appear to be Keith Vaz: Is not one way of dealing with this spoiling ones that do not merit consideration, and it is the commencement of proper discussions between the becoming plain that there is insufficient time for Government and the Opposition? We heard from the consideration. Even today’s business will end, I fear, Lord Chancellor that there were informal approaches, with large chunks having not been properly considered. and the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) raised the issue on Second Reading. One way of avoiding The Liberal Democrat proposal—I respect Mr. Speaker’s lengthy debates on the Floor of the House about decision that we cannot vote on it—strikes me as one programme motions is to have proper constructive that the Secretary of State could properly keep in mind. discussions between—[Interruption.] I agree that such Given that I feel we will have insufficient time, the one debates are important, but on measures of this kind, way in which we can lay down a marker of our unhappiness where the political parties are prepared to have a discussion, at this stage is to oppose the Government motion. surely such formal discussions should not take place on I hope that, in the spirit in which I certainly intend the Floor of the House and thereby curtail the debate this debate to be conducted, the Secretary of State will that is necessary on the Floor of the House. take the opportunity to reconsider the timetable, which has two key failings. First, I strongly suspect that it is Mr. Grieve: The right hon. Gentleman makes an not long enough in its totality. Secondly, the way the important point. I, for one, am always happy to have knives have been placed guarantees that when we finally informal discussions with the Lord Chancellor and get to day four and probably have to consider the Bill’s Secretary of State on these matters—and I enjoy them—but most important clauses, it will be even more apparent it is important that we do not circumvent this House. than it is today that we do not have the time to do so, The reason for holding these debates on the Floor of especially when the business has not been protected, as the House is precisely so that we do not have a Committee it has not this afternoon. We have had two statements—I upstairs which can be packed with the nominees of do not blame the Secretary of State for that, but the fact Government—and, for that matter, of Opposition—and is that it is the Government’s business—which have so that every Member of this House can participate in already taken up a considerable part of the afternoon’s debate on this constitutional measure, including those business. who may disagree fundamentally with any proposal, even one brought forward jointly by the Secretary of For those reasons, I urge the Secretary of State to State and myself. reconsider the position. None of the amendments tabled is in any way a means to filibuster. This is an important Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) Bill and the fact that the Secretary of State has kept it in (Con): Will my hon. and learned Friend also make the some ways—dare I say it—mercifully short does not point that it is profoundly undemocratic for important mean that it does not contain plenty of meat to be constitutional measures to be cobbled together by the scrutinised. It does—in its limited remit, which is far two Front-Bench teams and for Members to be denied more limited than the Government originally envisaged. the opportunity to debate such matters on the Floor of For those reasons, I hope that, by listening to this the House? afternoon’s debate, the Secretary of State will have an Mr. Grieve: I entirely agree with my right hon. and opportunity to reconsider his position. If he does not, learned Friend, and the last thing I would wish to do is we will have to register our unhappiness in the only way deprive him of the opportunity to participate in the we can. debate. 5.48 pm Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I As the amendment paper shows, amendments have must say that I am extremely disappointed in the position been tabled by Members who do not sit on the Front that the Lord Chancellor has chosen to take on this Benches but who have over the years taken a very occasion; he would not have supported it in previous honourable part in these debates. I am thinking of the incarnations. I say this because, whatever its shortcomings, hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins), for this is an important constitutional Bill. It certainly does example, who has been involved in such debates on not go nearly far enough in many directions for my many occasions. Amendments have also been tabled by liking; nevertheless, it does contain matters that we representatives of minor parties, who would not necessarily ought, quite properly, to debate in this House. However, normally be part of such Front-Bench discussions. That perhaps just as important are those things that are not is why on a constitutional Bill it is important to capture in it, and which right hon. and hon. Members would the views of the whole House. wish to add to the appropriate legislation for dealing Mr. Grieve: I agree entirely. with constitutional reform. This Government motion offers us an opportunity to The proposal before us—programme motion No. 2— revisit something we did at the end of Second Reading, differs from its predecessor in a very important respect, and with which I have never been comfortable. The which is, as the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield Government know that, as a matter of principle, we (Mr. Grieve) said, by the insertion of knives. Those oppose guillotines, particularly in respect of constitutional knives will curtail discussion. They are designed to measures. However, we also have a desire to get through curtail discussion. They are there to prevent Members business, and we are realistic, sometimes, about the of this House from having the opportunity of debating likely outcome of a vote. That having been said, here is this constitutional Bill. 757 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 758 Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) [Mr. David Heath] Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) has tabled some excellent new clauses for discussion, but of course The reason why, by convention, we consider the we do not reach new clauses until the very latter parts of Committee stage of constitutional Bills on the Floor of our consideration in Committee, so it is almost certain the House is to enable every Member who wishes to that we will not be able to discuss the matters of huge contribute to have their say. Perversely, what we have constitutional importance that he has raised. before us today is a programme motion that puts us in a Liberal Democrat Members wish to debate one key worse position than if we had been in Committee proposal, on the role of the Attorney-General. It was in upstairs. It is normal practice not to have knives until the previous Bill, when the reforms were supported by such time as it is clear that progress will not be made the Select Committee on Justice, of which I am a without them. I have served on countless Committees member; by its predecessor, the Select Committee on dealing with Bills of a constitutional or criminal justice Constitutional Affairs; and by a minority in the Joint nature over the years. Normally, we have managed to Committee. Yet this House is not going to be allowed to discuss, between ourselves, appropriate ways of progressing debate that very important matter because of the timetable business to avoid knives, wherever possible, and ensure exerted by the Lord Chancellor. that every single clause is given proper weight and proper consideration. That will not happen on this Mr. Grieve: Although the hon. Gentleman and I may occasion, despite the fact that many more Members differ on whether the reforms that he seeks to the role of may wish to be involved. This might be a modest Bill in the Attorney-General are right, it is perfectly clear that what it sets out to achieve, but it is hardly that modest in they should be debated during our consideration of this its physical size—it contains 56 clauses and nine Bill—there is no reason why they should not be. It is schedules—so it is reasonable that we take a little time clearly in order that it should be possible to achieve that in considering it. consideration—if we had the timetable that enabled us to do so. Mr. Hogg: Irrespective of whether or not the Bill is modest in itself, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is Mr. Heath: Of course it should. Let me conclude by a vehicle to which this House and its Members can add saying that if one wanted the clearest possible advertisement very substantially, if that is what this House wants? for the virtues of a proper business committee, where Mr. Heath: That is precisely the point, and I am glad these matters are discussed in advance between the that the right hon. and learned Gentleman makes it. He parties, including Back-Bench Members on both sides describes the substance of many of the amendments of the House, and where we can identify those issues that and new clauses that have been tabled and are on the hon. Members wish to have time to consider properly Order Paper. The Government, with their majority, and provide the appropriate time for them to do so, this blithely pass though this House proposals for carry-over is it. because they do not think that they can get things This is something that has not even been discussed by through in this Session, but they will not allow carry-over the Front-Bench teams; nobody has agreed to these in debate—even carry-over until tomorrow of matters guillotines and these knives, which the Lord Chancellor that we will not reach in debate this evening. When we now wishes to insert. This programme motion goes reach the knife tonight, any matters that we have not against the principles of the discussion of constitutional debated will simply disappear—they will not be debated Bills and against the interests of this House, and I hope by this House—and that is not a satisfactory position. that this House will oppose it. When the Lord Chancellor comes to this place with his pile of reports and papers, he betrays the fact that 5.55 pm the Bill before us is not the Bill that many of those Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I agree with the reports considered—huge sections have been left out hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) and other sections have been added. Even if it were the and the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) same Bill, what difference would that make? Today, we that, as a matter of principle, when a Bill dealing with are making law—we have the duty to consider the Bill the constitution is before the House it should not be the line by line—so it does not matter what discussion has subject of a programme motion. The House of Commons gone on before. It may be helpful to our discussions in ought to have an opportunity to discuss these important this Chamber, but it does not replace them. If he matters, especially given that when the Lord Chancellor believes that it does, I should tell him that we have been introduced the Bill he talked about this Government’s discussing reforming the Lords for 100 years—we discussed terrific record on the constitution and said that this Bill it right back in 1911, but we still have not done it. Does was an addition to it. he honestly believe that he could put it before this However, I am not absolutely convinced that the House without debate and expect to get it through? Of reasons advanced by the hon. and learned Member for course he does not. Beaconsfield and the hon. Member for Somerton and I firmly suggest that we will not conclude consideration Frome are necessarily the right ones. I was present on of the groups that are before us tonight. The hon. Second Reading and I recall that the hon. and learned Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) will be disappointed, Gentleman and the hon. Member for Cambridge (David yet again, at the outcome of his sterling efforts to put a Howarth) poked fun at the Lord Chancellor, saying that small measure that has a great deal of common sense this Bill had a grand title but there was nothing in it. To behind it on to the statute book. He has proposed it in be perfectly frank, the Opposition cannot have it both countless private Member’s Bills and time has never ways: they cannot say that the Bill is also weighty and been found for it. Now he has the perfect vehicle to important. I agree that the subject matter is, and even I introduce his reform of the civil service, yet he will not poked fun at the Lord Chancellor, despite the great be able to do so. The right hon. and learned Member for respect that we have for him, saying that given the 759 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 760 Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) history of what the Government have done on the new clauses are for the most part grouped right at the constitution, this should have been a much more substantial end of day four, and therefore in all probability will not Bill. be reached. It is perhaps quite useful to remind oneself of the Mr. Grieve: I should make the position clear. I believe nature of some of those new clauses, which seem to me I said that the mountain moved and brought forth the to be of fundamental importance and well worthy of mouse, and that is very much how I view this Bill. discussion in this place. Those to which I will refer are However, I also made it clear that elements of it, all tabled in my name—I hope that I will be forgiven for including the extremely important civil service reform that. The first would allow Ministers who are not and the proposals on the House of Lords, which are Members of this House to appear in the House and to also extremely important and are a departure from the answer questions and participate, though not vote. That Government’s previously stated position as to how they would have the advantage, would it not, of the right intend to carry out the reform of the other place, will hon. and noble Lord Mandelson’s being able to come to require detailed scrutiny and, I suspect, are likely to this House? I would welcome that. excite a lot of participation. The question then becomes: how long should this Bill have for consideration? If the There is a second proposal, also tabled in my name, time were open-ended, the Bill would resolve itself—heaven that we should have fixed-term Parliaments. I know that knows we have not got much business in this place at that is a matter of considerable interest to a lot of right the moment. For those reasons, the Government have hon. and hon. Members. On the point made by the right got off on the wrong foot. Here is an opportunity to hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) about life correct their position. peers’ being appointed for fixed terms, I could see considerable advantages if peers were to be created for a Keith Vaz: I say to the hon. and learned Gentleman period less than life—for five or 10 years, or whatever. that even if this were the shortest Bill in the world, he Whatever the merits of that proposal, it is surely sufficiently would be able to make his usual passionate and eloquent important to attract a debate in this place. Although we speeches, ensuring that even one of them would fill the might not be able to agree that proposition in the next whole four days—he is that able an advocate when he four days or whenever, that this House should have the speaks at the Dispatch Box. ability to ventilate and express that view seems quite The one point that I wish to make in conclusion plain. relates to the bit of the Bill that I found to be of There is another proposal that I venture to make. substance, which was that concerning the House of War-making powers should be entrusted to this House Lords. With the greatest respect to the right hon. and and should not be part of the royal prerogative. Again, learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham that seems to me to be a matter that is very much in the (Mr. Hogg), may I say that I was not suggesting in my interests of the House. I have tabled a new clause that intervention on the hon. and learned Member for has the effect of making the selection of the Prime Beaconsfield that we should substitute discussions outside Minister dependent on an address moved by this House this House for a proper debate inside it about House of to Her Majesty. That again seems to be an issue that is Lords reform? However, I was very taken by the suggestions well worth considering. made on Second Reading by the hon. Member for There is the further question of Mr. Speaker’s having Chichester (Mr. Tyrie), and others, relating to the the right to recall Parliament in exceptional circumstances appointment of temporary—or term-limited—peers. rather than leaving it to the Government of the day. I really do not believe that four days would be enough That again seems to me to be a matter of considerable to discuss such an issue. I hope to obtain an undertaking importance. The business committee, which was mentioned from the Lord Chancellor that even though we cannot by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome, should discuss it in great detail because of this programme be set up by the Standing Orders of this House so that motion, if an approach is made by an Opposition party, we, and not the Government, determine, for example, whichever one it may be, serious and substantive discussions the business surrounding a constitutional Bill such as will take place with that party on term-limited peers. We that which we are now debating. need to find a consensus on House of Lords reform. I, There is also the question of referendums. I tabled an for one, do not believe that we have to wait for the next amendment to the effect that when there is a treaty election and for the next manifesto to be written in between the European Union and the United Kingdom order to make another commitment about such reform, that abrogates the sovereignty of the United Kingdom because we have done that for the past three terms. I or in any way significantly curtails the relationships in hope that that discussion will take place. If he gives me an adverse way it should be subject to a referendum. that undertaking, that will satisfy me that there is no The House might not agree with that, but that it should need for additional time to be given to discuss this Bill. be the subject of debate seems to me to be quite plain. The truth is that all these proposals, some of which 5.59 pm have been on the Order Paper in the names of other Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) right hon. and hon. Members for some time, are all (Con): May I associate myself with what has been said matters of substantial constitutional importance. If we by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield were not to have this timetable motion—or, alternatively, (Mr. Grieve) and the hon. Member for Somerton and if we had more time—the House would have the Frome (Mr. Heath)? This is an important Bill, but, opportunity to debate them. I venture to say that no goodness knows, it could be a much more important right hon. or hon. Member would say that those new Bill. I would venture to say that most of the most clauses were unworthy of debate, but the Secretary of important propositions that are placed before the House State’s timetable motion will deprive the House of such are in the new clauses and, as the House will know, the an opportunity. 761 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 762 Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Mr. Straw: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman more and more what the real duties of a Member of explain something to me? I understand his argument Parliament are. Today, they seem to be to attend to about the knives, but a large part of everybody’s argument e-mails every five seconds and to respond on diverse tonight has been over the fact that four days have been subjects to constituents on matters about which I know allocated. If that argument is powerful today, why was very little. Our real duty, which is to scrutinise legislation—to it not sufficiently powerful on 20 October to get him look at it line by line—seems no longer to be important into the Lobby? There was no dissent to the programme or the part of our lives that it should be. motion on that day. I remember, in the days when I was in Committees upstairs, time after time the habit crept in of putting in Mr. Hogg: The Secretary of State is being less attentive the knives and the guillotine motions, which meant that than he normally is. The truth is that one has to whole chunks of Bills that I was taking through Standing determine a timetable motion in the context of the Committees were never debated, neither in Committee amendments and new clauses that were on the Order nor in this House. That is a tragedy. Paper when the timetable motion came to be considered. No doubt when this motion was first debated, the We all need to ask ourselves what is the role of a House had not determined the exact character of the Member of Parliament now and what it will be over the new clauses and amendments. Now we have; we can see next 10 years. Will it simply be instantly to react to a the Order Paper, and it will expand. Nobody, not even news story or can we please get back to the days when the Secretary of State, has argued that the points that I we examined legislation line by line and made our own have just made are unworthy of debate. The House arguments and amendments? The truth of the matter is should therefore extend the time available for debate. that if I have an amendment or argument I want to make it, and I want the views of all hon. Members to be heard. If I lose the argument by a vote or because I have Mr. Grieve: Does my right hon. and learned Friend made it badly, that is that, but at least I have made it. also agree that the merit of not having knives is that, as Day after day, the trend continues that the opportunities the days progress, it might become apparent that there for Members of this House properly to do the job for is insufficient time to consider the business within the which they were elected, in my judgment, are gradually Government’s timetable? We could therefore make powerful disappearing. representations that we needed extra days if necessary. The mischief of the knives is that we lose chunks of business at the end of each day and we are never able to 6.9 pm recover it. Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): Mr. Hogg: My hon. and learned Friend is quite right. When we considered the devolution Bills at the start of The knives are even more mischievous when we have the Government’s time in office— two important statements taking up part of the time for debate. Moreover, the principle of the knives is incompatible Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Awful! with carry-over motions. As the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome properly said, there is a carry-over motion, which suggests that the Government want some business Mr. Heald: Well, there were arguments about the to be discussed, but the knives deny that opportunity in quality of the Bills, but the Government accepted the respect of the next two days. principle that they would agree programme motions with the Opposition, and allow the Opposition the time that they asked for to debate the Bills. My right hon. Mr. Heath: The right hon. and learned Gentleman and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North will also be aware that there is a very high expectation of Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) never agreed even with those a statement tomorrow—the second day in Committee—so programme motions, but the Government were prepared we will lose yet more time. That is again something that to engage and at least try to give the Opposition the could not have been factored in when the programme time needed to go through important matters. motion was first considered. This Bill deals with the civil service, and it has taken Mr. Hogg: Indeed. I have no doubt that when we years to come before the House. The Government promised come to the third and fourth days, whenever they might it first in 1996, and then in almost every year since. It be, we will find that yet more important business has has been the subject of a lot of debate in the House, and been shuffled into the programme. The truth is that this the Public Administration Committee and the Committee House is being denied an opportunity to make very on Standards in Public Life have both produced excellent important changes to the constitution, or, if it is not reports on it. Even so, the Bill is a bit of a disappointment, ready to make them, at least to debate them. I am afraid as it does not go far enough in a number of ways. that this Government like to shut out debate and I We have an opportunity to debate the Bill and make regard that as quite lamentable. sure that some problems are put right. Our debate should go further than the very valuable new clauses 6.7 pm tabled by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, as other hon. Members Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): I rise briefly to have tabled amendments that deal with vital matters support my hon. and learned Friend the Member for such as the role of special advisers. Are they to have the Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), the hon. Member for Somerton sort of executive powers that were so unpopular when and Frome (Mr. Heath) and my right hon. and learned they were exercised by Alastair Campbell but which Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham have proved to be such exciting entertainment in films (Mr. Hogg). As the years have gone by, I have wondered such as “In the Loop”? 763 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 764 Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Are we going to tackle, in a proper debate, the problem assist debate. In this case, it is clear that a lot of of the special adviser with executive powers? There are concerns have to do with the business that will arise on numerous amendments to clause 8, and they all need to the third and fourth days— be considered adequately. When we last debated these matters, I remember that the important question of Mr. Grieve indicated assent. who a civil servant is took some time. I see that we are due to have a similar debate in connection with clause 1. Mr. Straw: I see that there is approbation for that. A In my view, the Government are going backwards knife is proposed to fall today after debate on the and becoming ever less democratic. The surprise is that proposals in respect of the civil service, and another on the Lord Chancellor, who has always been thought to the second day—tomorrow—after debate on a number be someone who respects the House and who wants to of important issues. Once we get to the third day, no be at one with its traditions, should be backsliding in knife will fall for two days. So the quicker that we can this way. The programme motion does not give adequate deal with the proposals on treaties and protests, the time for what is an important constitutional debate. sooner we can get on to those on the House of Lords. When we considered the devolution Bills, we had My judgment is that the proposals on treaties and 36 days on the Floor of the House. That was agreed by protests need not take a huge amount of time, as there the Government, but the Lord Chancellor is engaged in is general agreement about them. There will be a debate cheese-paring by offering a mere four days to consider about the House of Lords proposals, but we will have this Bill in Committee—four days that will be interfered two days for it. The motion protects that debate, rather with by constant statements. than running it into the buffers. Mr. Grieve: I am sure that the Secretary of State can Mr. Heath: The four days may be sufficient—I do not see how much things have changed. On Second Reading, think that they will be, but they may—but the point is he quite reasonably presented a picture of a number of that they can be extended by means of a further programme days being set aside for debate. That may not have been motion in the future. What cannot be extended are the perfect, but then he comes along today, as the debate is knives that the Secretary of State is trying to insert about to begin, and changes the rules with internal today. If he were to withdraw this programme motion, knives. That guarantees that large chunks of today’s he would be back to the previous motion that set a business alone will never come to be considered. It also four-day limit, at the end of which we could see how means that he has lost the option of being able to offer much progress we had made. the House a further day if he thinks that it has genuinely sought to make progress and yet has been unable to do Mr. Heald: I absolutely agree, and the hon. Gentleman so. That is the problem with his proposal. is another veteran of these debates. My point is that the House as a whole has important amendments to debate, Mr. Straw: The hon. and learned Gentleman knows in connection with what is a constitutional Bill. In the very well that the business of the House is in the hands past, the Government have accepted the principle that of the business managers. Of course I take account of we should have the time to do a proper job, so it is poor what has been said today, and I shall pursue the matter for a person in the Lord Chancellor’s position not to be with those business managers, but I cannot offer prepared to listen to the House. Even at this late stage, undertakings as to what will follow. I want these matters he could remove these knives, which will have exactly to be debated properly— the effect described by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) and others. Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con) rose—

6.13 pm Mr. Straw: I am sorry, but the debate is about to end. Mr. Straw: With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I say again that no Bill has been the subject of greater may I say that I understand the concerns of the House? prior discussion than this one— I could be forgiven for thinking that there was general approbation for devoting four days to this Bill, as on 6.17 pm 20 October—just two weeks ago—the House agreed Three quarters of an hour having elapsed since the that proposal without Division. Not even the right hon. commencement of proceedings on the motion, the Deputy and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham Speaker put the Question (Standing Order No. 83A). (Mr. Hogg)—who, as the hon. Member for North-East The House proceeded to a Division. Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) just noted, normally rises to oppose any programme motion—opposed it. I was not Madam Deputy Speaker: I ask the Serjeant at Arms party to the discussions through the usual channels, and to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby. I would not disclose them even if I were, but I took it from that result that there was general agreement. The House having divided: Ayes 293, Noes 230. Division No. 234] [6.17 pm At the heart of this argument is the question of how the knives should fall. The special Committee chaired AYES by my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) is examining the question of programming. Abbott, Ms Diane Austin, Mr. Ian It is also looking at the idea of having a business Ainger, Nick Bailey, Mr. Adrian Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Balls, rh Ed committee, to which I am highly sympathetic. Allen, Mr. Graham Banks, Gordon In the old days of guillotining, programming used to Anderson, Mr. David Barlow, Ms Celia happen with a vengeance. One motive for inserting Armstrong, rh Hilary Barron, rh Mr. Kevin knives was to help the Government, but another was to Atkins, Charlotte Beckett, rh Margaret 765 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 766 Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Begg, Miss Anne Field, rh Mr. Frank Laxton, Mr. Bob Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Bell, Sir Stuart Fisher, Mark Lazarowicz, Mark Rooney, Mr. Terry Benn, rh Hilary Fitzpatrick, Jim Lepper, David Roy, Lindsay Benton, Mr. Joe Flello, Mr. Robert Levitt, Tom Ruane, Chris Berry, Roger Flint, rh Caroline Linton, Martin Ruddock, Joan Betts, Mr. Clive Flynn, Paul Lloyd, Tony Russell, Christine Blackman, Liz Follett, Barbara Love, Mr. Andrew Ryan, rh Joan Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Foster, Mr. Michael Lucas, Ian Salter, Martin Blears, rh Hazel (Worcester) Mactaggart, Fiona Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Blunkett, rh Mr. David Foster, Michael Jabez Malik, Mr. Shahid Seabeck, Alison Borrow, Mr. David S. (Hastings and Rye) Mallaber, Judy Shaw, Jonathan Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Francis, Dr. Hywel Mann, John Sheerman, Mr. Barry Brennan, Kevin Gapes, Mike Marris, Rob Sheridan, Jim Brown, Lyn George, rh Mr. Bruce Marsden, Mr. Gordon Simon, Mr. Siôn Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gerrard, Mr. Neil Martlew, Mr. Eric Simpson, Alan Brown, Mr. Russell Gilroy, Linda McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Skinner, Mr. Dennis Browne, rh Des Goodman, Helen McCabe, Steve Slaughter, Mr. Andy Bryant, Chris Griffith, Nia McCafferty, Chris Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Buck, Ms Karen Griffiths, Nigel McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Ms Angela C. Burden, Richard Grogan, Mr. John McCarthy-Fry, Sarah (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Burgon, Colin Gwynne, Andrew McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Butler, Ms Dawn Hain, rh Mr. Peter McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Geraldine Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hall, Mr. Mike McDonnell, John Smith, rh Jacqui Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hamilton, Mr. David McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Snelgrove, Anne Cairns, David Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McFall, rh John Soulsby, Sir Peter Campbell, Mr. Alan Hanson, rh Mr. David McGovern, Mr. Jim Southworth, Helen Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Harman, rh Ms Harriet McGrady, Mr. Eddie Spellar, rh Mr. John Caton, Mr. Martin Havard, Mr. Dai McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Cawsey, Mr. Ian Healey, rh John McIsaac, Shona Stewart, Ian Challen, Colin Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McKenna, Rosemary Stoate, Dr. Howard Chapman, Ben Heppell, Mr. John McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Straw, rh Mr. Jack Chaytor, Mr. David Hesford, Stephen Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stringer, Graham Clapham, Mr. Michael Heyes, David Meale, Mr. Alan Stuart, Ms Gisela Clark, Ms Katy Hill, rh Keith Merron, Gillian Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Clark, Paul Hillier, Meg Michael, rh Alun Taylor, Ms Dari Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hodge, rh Margaret Miliband, rh Edward Taylor, David Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Miller, Andrew Thomas, Mr. Gareth Clelland, Mr. David Hood, Mr. Jim Mitchell, Mr. Austin Thornberry, Emily Clwyd, rh Ann Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moffatt, Laura Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hope, Phil Mole, Chris Tipping, Paddy Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Todd, Mr. Mark Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr. George Morden, Jessica Touhig, rh Mr. Don Cook, Frank Howells, rh Dr. Kim Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Trickett, Jon Cooper, Rosie Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mountford, Kali Truswell, Mr. Paul Cooper, rh Yvette Humble, Mrs. Joan Mudie, Mr. George Turner, Dr. Desmond Corbyn, Jeremy Iddon, Dr. Brian Mullin, Mr. Chris Turner, Mr. Neil Cousins, Jim Illsley, Mr. Eric Munn, Meg Twigg, Derek Crausby, Mr. David Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Murphy, Mr. Denis Ussher, Kitty Creagh, Mary Irranca-Davies, Huw Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Vaz, rh Keith Cruddas, Jon James, Mrs. Siân C. Naysmith, Dr. Doug Walley, Joan Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jenkins, Mr. Brian Norris, Dan Waltho, Lynda Cummings, John Johnson, rh Alan O’Hara, Mr. Edward Ward, Claire Cunningham, Mr. Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. Olner, Mr. Bill Watson, Mr. Tom Cunningham, Tony Jones, Helen Osborne, Sandra Watts, Mr. Dave Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Jones, Mr. Kevan Owen, Albert Whitehead, Dr. Alan David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Martyn Palmer, Dr. Nick Wicks, rh Malcolm Davidson, Mr. Ian Jowell, rh Tessa Pearson, Ian Williams, rh Mr. Alan Davies, Mr. Quentin Joyce, Mr. Eric Plaskitt, Mr. James Williams, Mrs. Betty Dean, Mrs. Janet Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pope, Mr. Greg Wills, rh Mr. Michael Denham, rh Mr. John Keeble, Ms Sally Pound, Stephen Wilson, Phil Dismore, Mr. Andrew Keeley, Barbara Prentice, Mr. Gordon Winnick, Mr. David Dobbin, Jim Keen, Alan Primarolo, rh Dawn Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Dobson, rh Frank Keen, Ann Prosser, Gwyn Wood, Mike Doran, Mr. Frank Kelly, rh Ruth Purchase, Mr. Ken Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Drew, Mr. David Kemp, Mr. Fraser Rammell, Bill Woolas, Mr. Phil Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Eagle, Angela Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Wright, Mr. Anthony Reed, Mr. Andy Eagle, Maria Kidney, Mr. David Wright, David Reed, Mr. Jamie Efford, Clive Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Reid, rh John Ellman, Mrs. Louise Knight, rh Jim Tellers for the Ayes: Riordan, Mrs. Linda Mark Tami and Engel, Natascha Kumar, Dr. Ashok Robertson, John Mr. Bob Blizzard Ennis, Jeff Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Etherington, Bill Lammy, rh Mr. David 767 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 768 Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) NOES Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Ruffley, Mr. David Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Russell, Bob Afriyie, Adam Foster, Mr. Don Lamb, Norman Sanders, Mr. Adrian Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Fox, Dr. Liam Lansley, Mr. Andrew Scott, Mr. Lee Alexander, Danny Francois, Mr. Mark Laws, Mr. David Selous, Andrew Amess, Mr. David Fraser, Christopher Leigh, Mr. Edward Shapps, Grant Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Gale, Mr. Roger Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Shepherd, Mr. Richard Atkinson, Mr. Peter Garnier, Mr. Edward Lewis, Dr. Julian Short, rh Clare Baker, Norman Gauke, Mr. David Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Simmonds, Mark Baldry, Tony George, Andrew Lidington, Mr. David Simpson, Mr. Keith Barker, Gregory Gibb, Mr. Nick Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Smith, Chloe Baron, Mr. John Gidley, Sandra Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Smith, Sir Robert Barrett, John Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Loughton, Tim Soames, Mr. Nicholas Beith, rh Sir Alan Goodman, Mr. Paul Luff, Peter Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Bellingham, Mr. Henry Goodwill, Mr. Robert Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Spicer, Sir Michael Benyon, Mr. Richard Gove, Michael Mackinlay, Andrew Spring, Mr. Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Gray, Mr. James MacNeil, Mr. Angus Steen, Mr. Anthony Binley, Mr. Brian Grayling, Chris Malins, Mr. Humfrey Streeter, Mr. Gary Blunt, Mr. Crispin Green, Damian Maples, Mr. John Stuart, Mr. Graham Bone, Mr. Peter Greening, Justine Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Swayne, Mr. Desmond Boswell, Mr. Tim Greenway, Mr. John Robert Swinson, Jo Bottomley, Peter Grieve, Mr. Dominic Maude, rh Mr. Francis Syms, Mr. Robert Brazier, Mr. Julian Hague, rh Mr. William May, rh Mrs. Theresa Tapsell, Sir Peter Breed, Mr. Colin Hammond, Mr. Philip McCrea, Dr. William Taylor, Mr. Ian Brokenshire, James Hammond, Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne Brooke, Annette Hands, Mr. Greg Taylor, Dr. Richard McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Browne, Mr. Jeremy Harper, Mr. Mark Teather, Sarah Mercer, Patrick Browning, Angela Harvey, Nick Thurso, John Miller, Mrs. Maria Burns, Mr. Simon Hayes, Mr. John Timpson, Mr. Edward Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Burrowes, Mr. David Heald, Mr. Oliver Tredinnick, David Moore, Mr. Michael Burstow, Mr. Paul Heath, Mr. David Turner, Mr. Andrew Moss, Mr. Malcolm Burt, Alistair Heathcoat-Amory, rh Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Mulholland, Greg Burt, Lorely Mr. David Vaizey, Mr. Edward Murrison, Dr. Andrew Butterfill, Sir John Hemming, John Vara, Mr. Shailesh Neill, Robert Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hendry, Charles Viggers, Sir Peter Newmark, Mr. Brooks Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Herbert, Nick Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Oaten, Mr. Mark Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hermon, Lady Walker, Mr. Charles Öpik, Lembit Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hoban, Mr. Mark Osborne, Mr. George Wallace, Mr. Ben Chope, Mr. Christopher Hoey, Kate Ottaway, Richard Waterson, Mr. Nigel Clark, Greg Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Paice, Mr. James Watkinson, Angela Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Holloway, Mr. Adam Paterson, Mr. Owen Webb, Steve Cormack, Sir Patrick Horam, Mr. John Pelling, Mr. Andrew Whittingdale, Mr. John Crabb, Mr. Stephen Horwood, Martin Penning, Mike Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Curry, rh Mr. David Hosie, Stewart Penrose, John Wiggin, Bill Davey, Mr. Edward Howard, rh Mr. Michael Pickles, Mr. Eric Willetts, Mr. David Davies, Mr. Dai Howarth, David Prisk, Mr. Mark Davies, David T.C. Howarth, Mr. Gerald Williams, Hywel Pritchard, Mark (Monmouth) Howell, John Williams, Mark Pugh, Dr. John Davies, Philip Hughes, Simon Williams, Mr. Roger Randall, Mr. John Davis, rh David Huhne, Chris Willott, Jenny Rennie, Willie Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Wilson, Mr. Rob Robathan, Mr. Andrew Dodds, Mr. Nigel Hunter, Mark Wilson, Sammy Robertson, Angus Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Hurd, Mr. Nick Winterton, Ann Robertson, Hugh Duncan, Alan Jack, rh Mr. Michael Wishart, Pete Robertson, Mr. Laurence Dunne, Mr. Philip Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Young, rh Sir George Robinson, Mrs. Iris Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Jones, Lynne Younger-Ross, Richard Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Evennett, Mr. David Kawczynski, Daniel Rogerson, Dan Fabricant, Michael Keetch, Mr. Paul Tellers for the Noes: Rosindell, Andrew Fallon, Mr. Michael Key, Robert James Duddridge and Rowen, Paul Farron, Tim Kirkbride, Miss Julie Jeremy Wright Featherstone, Lynne Knight, rh Mr. Greg Field, Mr. Mark Kramer, Susan Question accordingly agreed to. 769 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 770 Governance Bill Constitutional Reform and Governance which implies that some appointments to GCHQ will Bill not be made on merit. Given the extraordinary level of technical skill and knowledge that is required to work at [Relevant documents: Report of the Joint Committee on that agency, it seems extraordinary that anyone could the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill, Session 2007-08, ever be appointed to work there except on merit. on the Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill, HC 551-I The amendment would change the 2004 proposal, and–II, and the Government response, Cm 7690. Tenth which has not been properly justified and, in terms of Report from the Public Administration Select Committee, the employees themselves and other regulatory aspects Session 2007-08, on Constitutional Renewal: Draft Bill of the civil service, is not justified. I ask the Government and White Paper, HC 499, and the Government response, to correct this omission at this stage of the Bill’s proceedings. Cm 7688. The letter from the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Human Rights to the Secretary of State Mr. Francis Maude (Horsham) (Con): We have tabled for Justice dated 26 October 2009.] new clause 33, which has been grouped with the amendment. [1ST ALLOTTED DAY] Considered in Committee The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. Is the right hon. Gentleman leaping ahead? At [SIR ALAN HASELHURST in the Chair] the moment, we are on amendment 12, and new clause 33 is in the next group. Clause 1 APPLICATION OF CHAPTER Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): I am concerned about the exclusion of GCHQ from the 6.34 pm definition of what is a civil servant for the purposes of David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): I beg to move this part of the Bill. It is hard to see why GCHQ amendment 12, page 1, line 13, leave out paragraph (c). employees should not be covered by such provisions. Clause 1 simply relates to the scope of the civil Why should GCHQ not be managed by the Minister service part of the Bill, following on from the draft Civil but by a civil service employer? Why should there not be Service Bill in 2004 and the draft of this Bill in 2008. a code of conduct that requires integrity, honesty, objectivity The first question that arises from our amendment is and impartiality? Why should the Civil Service Commission whether the Bill should apply to GCHQ. The Bill be unable to set appointment rules that mean that excludes the coverage of all the security services, the appointments are on merit? Why should an employee Secret Intelligence Service, the Security Service and who feels that he is being asked to do something that is GCHQ, but, in the case of the latter in particular, there in breach of the code of conduct be unable to go to the is a history that suggests that the Government, at least, commissioners and ask for redress? It seems odd that have not always been of the opinion that GCHQ should the Government would want to exclude that particular be excluded. institution from the Bill. In the 2004 consultation on the draft Civil Service I can understand that slightly different considerations Bill, the Government said that there were no obstacles apply to the Secret Intelligence Service—MI6—because to including GCHQ within the scope of the statutory it has its own statutes that provide similar protections, basis of the civil service. They then said: and it might seem inappropriate to want to legislate to “The Government has no objection in principle to having civil repeal completely those provisions, which are presumably, servants who work in the field of intelligence covered by the draft for these purposes, adequate. However, GCHQ is not in Bill. Because there is no operational impediment to their inclusion, the same position, as the Government recognised in GCHQ staff will be within scope of all the provisions of the draft 2004. What has changed that makes the Government Bill.” suddenly feel that GCHQ must be treated differently But, in the 2008 draft Constitutional Renewal Bill, from the rest of the civil service? I am sure that if GCHQ was quietly removed, and the Bill before the somebody who works there was asked, “Who do you House today retains that position. work for?”, they would say either the Ministry of Defence From what the Government have said to the various or the civil service; they would not want to call themselves Committees that have discussed the Bill before us, I employees of anything else. Given that it is logical that gather that their justification for excising GCHQ from GCHQ should be covered by the Bill and given that this legislation is that GCHQ should be treated there is no real reason why the prerogative powers “in the same way as the other Security and Intelligence Agencies.” should be used instead of management being exercised The trouble is that that was not the thinking in 2004, under this legislation, I would be therefore be interested when the Government were prepared to treat GCHQ to hear the Minister’s explanation. differently, and it is far from clear why the change of I am worried that this may be one of those cases that policy has occurred. we get from time to time when Ministers and civil During the Public Administration Committee’s servants say, “We don’t want to fetter GCHQ in any investigation of the Bill, the First Civil Service way”, and that what is proposed is just the product of a Commissioner expressed concern about the exclusion defensive approach that is against the spirit of the age, of GCHQ employees, especially about the fact that they which is to be as transparent as possible. In that case, I would neither have the right to be appointed on merit believe that there is no real reason why the amendment nor be able to access any statutory complaints procedure. should not succeed. The Government, in reply to those concerns, merely said that Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): I want “appointments to GCHQ will, as a general rule, continue to be briefly to add my questions to those that have been made on merit,” asked. I have not heard an explanation as to why 771 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 772 Governance Bill Governance Bill GCHQ was to be included in these provisions back in If the Government will not accept the amendment 2004 and why it is now excluded; I do not know what tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge thought process or consultation has produced that change. (David Howarth), how do they propose to place GCHQ I do not know why it would be thought appropriate that on a similar footing to the other secret intelligence promotion on merit would not apply to the employees agencies? That question must be asked. I understand of GCHQ. I do not know why it would be thought that that GCHQ staff would like to be treated increasingly it was not appropriate for those employees to have the in the same way as those at the other intelligence right to appeal to the civil service commissioners. I do agencies, and I am sure that that is an appropriate not know whether the staff who work at GCHQ have desire. If they are excluded from the terms of the Bill, it been asked where they would like to sit. There may be is not clear how that aim will be achieved. good reasons for those exclusions, but none has yet The battle for GCHQ’s trade union rights, so disgracefully been produced, so I anticipate the Minister’s answers to denied by Mrs. Thatcher’s Government, was won under those questions. this Government, and they should be rightly proud of Mr. Heald: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. In seeking to extend what are proper rights and giving way. Does he share my concern that this may be entitlements to GCHQ employees— another case of, “Let’s be neat and tidy and keep all the secret bits together”, ignoring the fact that the two Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab) rose— secret services have their own Acts of Parliament with similar provisions to those in the Bill? It is completely Martin Horwood: I was about to conclude, but I wrong to look at it in that way, because it is not neat and happily give way. tidy. Dr. Wright: I was not giving way to the hon. Gentleman; Mr. Winnick: On 25 January 1984, the House was in fact, I had concluded my remarks. However, I think notified by the then Foreign Secretary that the right of that we are all asking more or less the same questions GCHQ employees to belong to a trade union was being and looking forward to the same answers. taken away. From then until 1997, Labour Back Benchers, and Labour Front Benchers as well, constantly argued Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I was recently that that right should be restored, which it has been, as privileged publicly to welcome Her Majesty the Queen the hon. Gentleman said. to GCHQ, along with the mayor of Cheltenham. I would not like to inflate my own importance in that, given that the mayor and I were almost the only people Martin Horwood: I think that that is broadly what I present who could be publicly photographed. During said. The Conservative Government’s actions at that that visit, I jokingly asked whether Her Majesty needed time damaged morale in the intelligence services security clearance, and was told, I think equally in jest, considerably and, if anything, weakened national security that she did not, because by definition GCHQ was instead of strengthening it. almost part of her household. Although that might The Government should take pride in their attention have been said in jest, it highlights the anomalous to the proper employment rights of civil servants at position in which the secret agencies find themselves, GCHQ and give active consideration to the amendment, which was identified by the Joint Committee on the which seeks only to do the same thing. Draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. 6.45 pm Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): Can the Minister clarify whether GCHQ is now being considered GCHQ is a large organisation that employs thousands in the same way as the other intelligence services? As we of people—thousands of my constituents—and we are have heard, that has been sought for some time. Its dealing with important employment rights in terms of inclusion in this part of the Bill would be a clear the right to be recruited on merit, and important procedures indication that the Government have looked again at in terms of having the right to complain to the civil how it is seen in the context of the intelligence services. service commissioners. In his evidence to the Joint What exactly is GCHQ’s position? It looks as though Committee, the Cabinet Secretary gave some absurdly there has been a turnaround, or change, in Government extreme examples of how those rights might be applied, policy with the result that GCHQ is now linked with the suggesting that GCHQ might have to place equal other two intelligence services; otherwise, I cannot think opportunities job advertisements in Pravda or that the why it is included in the exclusions listed Bill. civil service commissioners could be allowed public and unlimited access to personnel files at GCHQ, which Can the Minister clarify what will happen to civil would be equally inappropriate. It is equally possible to servants who have been seconded to GCHQ from other imagine circumstances in which a proper complaints Departments or agencies? Will they be protected in procedure, with statutory force, to bodies such as the any way? They obviously have to sign the relevant civil service commissioners might be helpful to GCHQ documentation and the Official Secrets Act, but there employees. Better that disgruntled staff have the right are civil servants who are seconded to GCHQ from to appeal in confidence to the commissioners than that other Departments and other agencies around the world. they take their complaints to the media, for instance. What will be their position? Will they be covered by the An intelligence agency is different from the rest of the Bill? civil service, but it cannot be beyond the wit of Government to propose amendments that might accommodate the The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. concerns of the Cabinet Secretary and others while still Smith): I thank hon. Members for their comments. I bestowing on my constituency workers at GCHQ statutory shall first set out the scope of the amendment and then rights very similar to those of other civil servants. address their questions. 773 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 774 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Angela E. Smith] I am grateful to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) for mentioning the rights of GCHQ Clause 1 sets out the scope of the provisions relating staff. If he had not, I would have done. It was this to the civil service and specifies the parts of it to which Government who gave trade union rights to GCHQ they will not apply, such as the Northern Ireland civil staff, as my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North service, the Northern Ireland Court Service, the Security (Mr. Winnick) mentioned, and we are proud of that. I Service, the Secret Intelligence Service and GCHQ. The hope that hon. Members are reassured by my repeating Bill also makes it clear that staff employed overseas, known our assurances on protection for staff. as locally engaged staff, are not covered by its provisions. The amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Mr. Heald rose— Cambridge (David Howarth) would bring GCHQ within the scope of the Bill. I can reassure hon. Members Mike Penning rose— that staff who work at GCHQ are civil servants, and I understand that Members wish to explore the Government’s Angela E. Smith: I give way first to the hon. Member reasons why those civil servants are not to be treated in for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald). the same way as those who are covered by the provisions in question. Mr. Heald: Does not the right hon. Lady understand Hon. Members mentioned that GCHQ staff were that the whole purpose of part 1 of the Bill is to put on included in the 2004 Bill. Recent world events have, of a statutory basis the protections that civil servants have necessity, driven the three UK agencies in question— had? It is not good enough for her to say, “I am making GCHQ, the SIS and the Security Service—to work an assurance”, because the whole purpose of part 1 is to together more closely and in a more dynamic and put things into law, not have them on the basis of joined-up way. They share intelligence and resources to assurance. I do not know whether she has understood meet ever-changing priorities in their operational work. that, but it is what the whole campaign for a civil service By responding to threats and attacks as a joined-up Bill has been about. community, they can act more effectively and efficiently. GCHQ works closely with the other agencies, and all Angela E. Smith: Before I respond, I believe that the three already operate under statutory provisions that hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) cover their activities and conduct, in the Security Service wanted to intervene as well. Act 1989, the Intelligence Services Act 1994 and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. It therefore Mike Penning: My hon. Friend the Member for North- makes sense for all three to operate on a similar footing, East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) is exactly right. Part 1 and the Joint Committee on the Bill endorsed that sets out the protection to be given to civil servants. If approach. The three agencies also have robust and the Minister can give assurances to the Committee and independent staff complaints procedures, and the funding to civil servants, why are they not in the Bill? That is for them is grouped together. what part 1 is all about. The Select Committee on Public Administration commented that Angela E. Smith: The assurance that I can give hon. “unlike most of the rest of the civil service, GCHQ and the other Members is that the same right of access to complaints Agencies are already established in statute, and…they have to procedures will be available to GCHQ staff as to staff operate under particular conditions that do not apply to most of of the other agencies. I understand that GCHQ staff the rest of the civil service. The legislation covering the Agencies were consulted about that and raised no objections. sets out to ensure that their activities remain within set purposes, and it establishes complaints mechanisms for the public if they are concerned about these activities.” Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): Under what It went on to suggest that the Joint Committee may circumstances would appointments at GCHQ not be wish to explore the issues of staff raising complaints made on merit? and whether staff should continue to be recruited on merit in future. Angela E. Smith: I would expect only in very rare and Hon. Members have mentioned the need to treat exceptional circumstances, because appointments are GCHQ staff in the same way as those at the security and made on merit. As the general public would understand intelligence services. The Joint Committee agreed with it, all appointments are made on merit and the person that but asked for assurances that GCHQ staff would be most appropriate for a post is chosen. The Joint Committee given the same right of access to an independent complaints asked for an assurance that in general appointments mechanisms as those at the other agencies and that, as a would be made on merit, and the Government gave that general rule, staff at GCHQ would be recruited on assurance. I therefore ask the hon. Member for Cambridge merit. In the Government’s response, we gave both those to withdraw the amendment in the light of the assurances assurances. that I have given the Committee. David Howarth: But is not the point that there is no David Howarth: I was hoping that the Minister would statutory basis for those promises, whereas there is for provide an answer to the question that we have all been staff in the other services in the legislation that she asking, which is why the Government have changed mentioned? their stance since 2004. We have not received any explanation Angela E. Smith: The Government have given assurances of that at all. I was also hoping that she might be able to that they will have an independent complaints mechanism provide chapter and verse about the statutory protection and that staff will be recruited on merit, and I can of GCHQ staff that would put them on the basis that repeat those assurances to the hon. Gentleman and the the Bill offers to other civil servants. She was not able to Committee today. do that, either. 775 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 776 Governance Bill Governance Bill It seems to me that the Minister’s only argument is Prentice, Mr. Gordon Teather, Sarah that she is offering assurances from the Dispatch Box, Pugh, Dr. John Webb, Steve but they are exactly the sort of assurances that would Rennie, Willie Williams, Hywel apply were the whole civil service still to be established Robertson, Angus Williams, Mr. Roger merely on the basis of the royal prerogative. They seem Rowen, Paul Willott, Jenny to me simply a repetition of what is in the Bill. Russell, Bob Wishart, Pete Sanders, Mr. Adrian Younger-Ross, Richard Mike Penning: Can the hon. Gentleman give us a clue Simpson, Alan Tellers for the Ayes: as to why the Minister would not indicate what the Swinson, Jo Mark Hunter and exceptional circumstances would be in which someone Taylor, Dr. Richard Martin Horwood was not promoted on merit? Why does he believe she did not let the Committee know that? NOES Abbott, Ms Diane Cruddas, Jon David Howarth: I do not know, and that point is by Ainger, Nick Cryer, Mrs. Ann far the strongest case for the amendment that has been Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cummings, John established in the debate. Appointments to positions at Allen, Mr. Graham Cunningham, Mr. Jim GCHQ must be on merit, because they are technical Anderson, Mr. David Cunningham, Tony jobs. What does it mean for an appointment not to be Armstrong, rh Hilary David, Mr. Wayne made on merit? Atkins, Charlotte Davidson, Mr. Ian Austin, Mr. Ian Davies, Mr. Dai Bailey, Mr. Adrian Davies, Mr. Quentin Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will my Banks, Gordon Dean, Mrs. Janet hon. Friend give way? Barlow, Ms Celia Denham, rh Mr. John Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dismore, Mr. Andrew David Howarth: I shall attempt to answer the question, Beckett, rh Margaret Dobbin, Jim and then my right hon. Friend might provide a better Begg, Miss Anne Dobson, rh Frank answer. Bell, Sir Stuart Dodds, Mr. Nigel It seems to me that an appointment not on merit Benn, rh Hilary Doran, Mr. Frank would be an appointment on political grounds, and I Benton, Mr. Joe Eagle, Angela cannot see under what circumstances there could be an Berry, Roger Eagle, Maria Betts, Mr. Clive Efford, Clive appointment to GCHQ on political grounds. My right Blackman, Liz Ellman, Mrs. Louise hon. Friend might enlighten us. Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Engel, Natascha Blears, rh Hazel Ennis, Jeff Sir Alan Beith: I was going to put it to my hon. Borrow, Mr. David S. Etherington, Bill Friend that I was as baffled by the Minister’s reply as he Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Farrelly, Paul was. I am looking around the Chamber, and I believe Brown, Lyn Fisher, Mark that it happens that I have spent more time than anybody Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Fitzpatrick, Jim else who is currently in their place inside GCHQ talking Brown, Mr. Russell Flello, Mr. Robert to people there about precisely what they do. I have Browne, rh Des Flint, rh Caroline never met anybody there at any level who did not Bryant, Chris Flynn, Paul appear to have been appointed on merit. Buck, Ms Karen Follett, Barbara Burden, Richard Foster, Mr. Michael Burgon, Colin (Worcester) David Howarth: I am sure that that is the case, so why Butler, Ms Dawn Foster, Michael Jabez the Government desire to have this loophole is entirely Byrne, rh Mr. Liam (Hastings and Rye) mysterious to me. Because of that, I wish to press the Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Francis, Dr. Hywel amendment to a vote. Cairns, David Gapes, Mike Question put, That the amendment be made. Campbell, Mr. Alan George, rh Mr. Bruce Campbell, Mr. Gregory Gerrard, Mr. Neil The Committee divided: Ayes 51, Noes 281. Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Gilroy, Linda Division No. 235] [6.58 pm Caton, Mr. Martin Goodman, Helen Cawsey, Mr. Ian Griffith, Nia AYES Challen, Colin Griffiths, Nigel Chapman, Ben Grogan, Mr. John Alexander, Danny Heath, Mr. David Chaytor, Mr. David Gwynne, Andrew Barrett, John Hemming, John Clapham, Mr. Michael Hain, rh Mr. Peter Beith, rh Sir Alan Hosie, Stewart Clark, Ms Katy Hall, Mr. Mike Breed, Mr. Colin Howarth, David Clark, Paul Hall, Patrick Brooke, Annette Hughes, Simon Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hamilton, Mr. David Browne, Mr. Jeremy Huhne, Chris Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Burstow, Mr. Paul Keetch, Mr. Paul Clelland, Mr. David Hanson, rh Mr. David Burt, Lorely Kramer, Susan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Lamb, Norman Clwyd, rh Ann Havard, Mr. Dai Corbyn, Jeremy Laws, Mr. David Coaker, Mr. Vernon Healey, rh John Farron, Tim Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Coffey, Ann Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Featherstone, Lynne MacNeil, Mr. Angus Connarty, Michael Hermon, Lady Foster, Mr. Don McDonnell, John Cook, Frank Hesford, Stephen George, Andrew Mulholland, Greg Cooper, Rosie Hill, rh Keith Gidley, Sandra Oaten, Mr. Mark Cooper, rh Yvette Hodge, rh Margaret Harris, Dr. Evan Öpik, Lembit Cousins, Jim Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Harvey, Nick Pelling, Mr. Andrew Crausby, Mr. David Hood, Mr. Jim 777 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 778 Governance Bill Governance Bill Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Morden, Jessica Turner, Mr. Neil Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hope, Phil Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Twigg, Derek Wilson, Phil Hopkins, Kelvin Mountford, Kali Ussher, Kitty Wilson, Sammy Howarth, rh Mr. George Mudie, Mr. George Vaz, rh Keith Winnick, Mr. David Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mullin, Mr. Chris Walley, Joan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Munn, Meg Waltho, Lynda Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Humble, Mrs. Joan Naysmith, Dr. Doug Ward, Claire Woolas, Mr. Phil Iddon, Dr. Brian Norris, Dan Watson, Mr. Tom Wright, Mr. Anthony Illsley, Mr. Eric O’Hara, Mr. Edward Watts, Mr. Dave Wright, David Irranca-Davies, Huw Olner, Mr. Bill Whitehead, Dr. Alan James, Mrs. Siân C. Osborne, Sandra Wicks, rh Malcolm Tellers for the Noes: Jenkins, Mr. Brian Owen, Albert Williams, rh Mr. Alan Mr. Bob Blizzard and Johnson, Ms Diana R. Palmer, Dr. Nick Williams, Mrs. Betty Mr. John Heppell Jones, Helen Pearson, Ian Jones, Mr. Kevan Plaskitt, Mr. James Question accordingly negatived. Jones, Lynne Pope, Mr. Greg Jones, Mr. Martyn Pound, Stephen David Howarth: I beg to move amendment 10, in Jowell, rh Tessa Primarolo, rh Dawn clause 1, page 2, line 21, at end add— Joyce, Mr. Eric Prosser, Gwyn (5) (a) Within two months of this section coming into Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Purchase, Mr. Ken force, the Minister for the Civil Service shall issue a Keeble, Ms Sally Rammell, Bill list of all bodies and organisations that are to be Keeley, Barbara Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick treated for the purposes of this Act as part of the Keen, Alan Reed, Mr. Andy Civil Service. Keen, Ann Reed, Mr. Jamie (b) The Minister for the Civil Service shall from time to Kelly, rh Ruth Riordan, Mrs. Linda time review the list referred to in (a) and shall issue Kemp, Mr. Fraser Robertson, John an amended list if he believes it appropriate to do Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey so.’. Kidney, Mr. David Robinson, Mrs. Iris Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Robinson, rh Mr. Peter The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to Knight, rh Jim Rooney, Mr. Terry discuss the following: New clause 33—Civil Service Kumar, Dr. Ashok Roy, Lindsay annual report— Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Ruane, Chris ‘(1) The Minister for the Civil Service must publish and lay Laxton, Mr. Bob Ruddock, Joan before Parliament an annual report on the functioning of the Lazarowicz, Mark Russell, Christine civil service of the state. Lepper, David Ryan, rh Joan (2) The Minister for the Civil Service may publish separate Levitt, Tom Salter, Martin reports covering civil servants who serve the Scottish Executive Linton, Martin Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad or the Welsh Assembly. Before publishing these separate reports Lloyd, Tony Seabeck, Alison the Minister must consult the First Minister for Scotland or the Love, Mr. Andrew Shaw, Jonathan First Minister for Wales (as the case may be). Lucas, Ian Sheridan, Jim (3) Such a report must include but is not limited to— Mackinlay, Andrew Simon, Mr. Siôn Mactaggart, Fiona Skinner, Mr. Dennis (a) details on the numbers of civil servants by each Malik, Mr. Shahid Slaughter, Mr. Andy government department and agency; Mallaber, Judy Smith, rh Mr. Andrew (b) the costs of civil servants by each government Mann, John Smith, Ms Angela C. department and agency; Marris, Rob (Sheffield, Hillsborough) (c) a comprehensive definition of the civil service of the Marsden, Mr. Gordon Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) state for that year. Martlew, Mr. Eric Smith, Geraldine (4) The First Minister for Scotland must lay before the McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Jacqui Scottish Parliament any report under subsection (2) that covers McCabe, Steve Snelgrove, Anne civil servants that serve the Scottish Executive. McCafferty, Chris Soulsby, Sir Peter McCarthy, Kerry Southworth, Helen (5) The First Minister for Wales must lay before the National Assembly for Wales any report under subsection (2) that covers McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Spellar, rh Mr. John civil servants that serve the Welsh Assembly Government.’. McCrea, Dr. William Starkey, Dr. Phyllis McDonagh, Siobhain Stewart, Ian Clause 1 stand part. McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Stoate, Dr. Howard The Committee will know that the list of amendments McFall, rh John Straw, rh Mr. Jack selected is provisional. Having had time to reflect on the McGovern, Mr. Jim Stringer, Graham matter, I thought that it might be for the convenience of McGrady, Mr. Eddie Stuart, Ms Gisela the Committee if I included clause 1 stand part in this McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry grouping, as the remarks that I sense hon. Members McIsaac, Shona Tami, Mark may wish to make would not then be restricted. McKenna, Rosemary Taylor, Ms Dari McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Taylor, David David Howarth: A central issue in this Bill is the Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Thomas, Mr. Gareth question: to whom does it apply? Who counts as a civil Meale, Mr. Alan Thornberry, Emily servant? There has been debate for many years on the Merron, Gillian Timms, rh Mr. Stephen merits of a civil service Bill, and about the importance Michael, rh Alun Tipping, Paddy of giving statutory protection to civil servants, so that Miliband, rh Edward Todd, Mr. Mark they do not rely simply on the good will of the Government Miller, Andrew Touhig, rh Mr. Don of the day in important aspects of their working lives. Moffatt, Laura Trickett, Jon Obviously, once one accepts the principle of statutory Mole, Chris Truswell, Mr. Paul protection for civil servants, the question of who counts Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Turner, Dr. Desmond as a civil servant becomes very important. 779 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 780 Governance Bill Governance Bill In this Bill, the Government have simply not attempted Mr. Heald: Many of the bodies that the hon. Gentleman any definition, or even any description, of what counts mentions, over which questions as to whether they are as the civil service. The Minister may be able to point part of the civil service may arise, are performing functions me to a part of the Bill where I can find such a that can be controversial—such as regulators or the definition, but I have not been able to find it. Clause 1(1) Health and Safety Executive. It is all the more important simply states: that it should be clear whether civil servants working in “this Chapter applies to the civil service of the State.” those organisations will have the protection of the Act, It makes no further attempt to say what that means. and can make complaints if an attempt is made to interfere with a controversial decision. In contrast, in the Government’s consultation on the 2004 Bill, they said: David Howarth: That is an important aspect of the “Because there is no satisfactory, authoritative and comprehensive question. Are civil servants protected from improper definition of the term ‘Civil Service’, in order to achieve the pressure, for example? Do they have the protection of necessary clarity and certainty about coverage, the draft Bill the code? If they do not, what is their protection? The proposes that there should be a comprehensive listing of every part of the Civil Service to which the Bill is to apply.” hon. Gentleman is right. Many of the bodies concerned are charged with making judgments with which the Then, the Government accepted the fact that it is difficult Government of the day might not agree, which makes it to define the civil service in abstract terms, so the even more important for us to know whether they are solution was to list in the Bill the organisations and covered. bodies that would count as part of the civil service for the purposes of the Bill. The 2004 Bill included that list On amendment 10, I hope that the Government can in a schedule. That is an important list, because it provide a better explanation of their position than they includes organisations that, if the only definition in the did on the previous amendment. I shall not comment Bill was now on new clause 33, which has been grouped with my amendment, except to say that we agree, of course, with “the civil service of the State”, the part of it that demands that the Government tell us could be defined as being in or out of the civil service. who counts as a civil servant.

7.15 pm Mr. Maude: I apologise, Sir Alan, for being a little previous in attempting to intervene during the last For example, is ACAS in the civil service or not? Are grouping. I have worked out that I last led for my party the people who work for ACAS civil servants or not? during the Committee stage of a Bill in 1992—so perhaps The 2004 Bill included ACAS. I do not want to go I am a little rusty. However, I hope that I shall get the through the entire list, but there is ambiguity about hang of it before long. other similar bodies. For example, does the civil service include regulatory organisations such as Ofwat, the The Conservative party supports the proposal in Office of Rail Regulation and Ofsted, or the various amendment 10, but new clause 33, which stands in my inspectorates such as Her Majesty’s fire service inspectorate, name and in those of my hon. Friends, goes further. or the Health and Safety Executive? Are the people who The Bill has been in gestation for 150 years: it has taken work for those bodies civil servants or not? In every a long time to get here. It does some very good things, case, the answer according to the 2004 Bill is yes. All and we support its purpose of putting the civil service those organisations were covered. Are they covered by on a statutory basis—but it is deeply eccentric that after the present Bill? The problem is that we do not know. 150 years, we have a Bill to put the civil service on a statutory basis that does not say what the civil service is. This amendment asks the Government why, if in This is a moveable feast—and one that is broadly at the 2004 they thought that it was not satisfactory to leave discretion of the Government. It seems to be almost at the question alone and that we needed not only a vague the whim of the Government, too. general definition but a list of the organisations to which the Bill would apply, they have now suddenly I am always astonished that if a Member of Parliament changed their mind, and say that the lack of an authoritative puts down a parliamentary question to the Cabinet and comprehensive definition is satisfactory. This is not Office about civil service numbers, answer comes there an abstract point. It is important, because on this none. The question is referred to the Office for National question turns who counts as a civil service employer—and Statistics, as if the number of civil servants were an that is important because it is the only way we have of external phenomenon that the Government tried to telling whether the various rights in the Bill apply. In track out of interest, but they had no concept of its particular, clause 9 includes the right to an investigation being a crucial management tool. In truth, at this stage, by the Civil Service Commission. How can it possibly it is a management tool of considerable bearing on be a matter of dispute whether someone is entitled to reducing Britain’s ballooning budget deficit. invoke that right? The fact is that the numbers of civil servants have I hope that at some stage in our discussions we will varied enormously. The Government claim that they consider the duties of civil service employers and Ministers have reduced the size of the civil service. They claim to to act impartially towards their employees. We do not have “achieved 86,700 workforce reductions” as part of know whether that will apply to some sets of employees the Gershon programme. Civil service employment was unless we know who counts as a civil servant. The 522,000 in 2008. I accept that that was down from the important issue of appointment on merit was raised in 2004 peak of 570,000, but it was still higher than the the previous debate. Does the requirement of appointment 516,000 level of 1997. on merit apply to a particular job? If we cannot tell The recent fall is deceptive. There has been a significant whether that is the case, the Bill collapses into unacceptable expansion in the size of the quango state, which is not uncertainty and vagueness. shown up in civil service head-count figures, and there 781 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 782 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Maude] It is important for there to be a proper definition of the civil service, and for the numbers and costs associated has been a growth in the number of quangos classified with civil servants, in each Department and agency, to as public corporations, rather than as part of the civil be laid out. The civil service has been waiting since, I service. In 1996, 89 such bodies were classified as public think, 1854—not the current crowd of civil servants, corporations, but by 2008 that number had doubled to clearly—for a civil service Bill, and it would be almost 178. Staff in public corporations are generally not classified an insult were this eventual enshrinement in statute to as civil service employees for civil service head-count be without any attempt to define it. It would then purposes. No fewer than 568,000 staff are now employed remain in the gift of the Government to decide arbitrarily by public corporations, compared with 525,000 civil and at whim who is to be covered. We therefore wish service employees. Mysteriously, only 31,000 of those there to be the possibility of a Division on new clause public corporation staff are included in civil service 33, if amendment 10 does not proceed to a vote. head count. There has also been a shift of bodies from the civil Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I service into public corporations. For example, the Forensic want to address the narrow point about the precise Science Service became a Government-owned company definition of a civil servant in clause 1(1). As hon. in 2005 and was transferred out of the Home Office, so Members have pointed out, that subsection states: was no longer counted in civil service head counts. “this Chapter applies to the civil service of the State.” Clause 1(4) says: Mr. Heald: My right hon. Friend will have seen that part 1 of the Bill sets up, as a body corporate, the Civil “In this Chapter references to the civil service…are to the civil Service Commission. Will the people who work there be service of the State”. civil servants? It then excludes the parts mentioned in subsections (2) and (3) that we have discussed already. Mr. Maude: I look forward with interest to the Minister’s If we then seek further guidance by going, as one response to that question—[Interruption.] She is looking normally would, to the definitions in the Bill, we find, in anxiously to the civil servants’ Box for advice on that clause 18, the following definitions: important matter—so at least it should come from the “In this Chapter…“civil servant”is read as stated in section 1(4)”, horse’s mouth. and Executive non-departmental public bodies, with the exception of three Crown NDPBs, are not counted “civil service” is read as stated in section 1(4)”. within civil service head counts, and regional development We are therefore returned to the start, rather in the agencies are not deemed to be part of the civil service manner of one of those telephone calls when someone either. In the last year for which there are numbers, tries to get through to pay their electricity bill, but is there were more than 200,000 NDPB employees. returned to the number that they first dialled, without Furthermore, there are a series of what are effectively any satisfaction of their complaint. It is not just that the public bodies yet are not deemed to be part of the Bill apparently contains no extensive definition, but public sector at all—the Carbon Trust, Envirowise, the that such definitions as it does contain are completely Energy Saving Trust, Network Rail and UK Financial circular. Investments Ltd are not counted as civil service, central Government or even the public sector, yet all are funded 7.30 pm by the Government. That concerns me; indeed, I raised the matter on Of crucial importance, at a time when it is enormously Second Reading in an intervention on my right hon. important for the health of the country that the Government Friend the Secretary of State for Justice. In answer to can, in the years to come, get more for less, given the my question about whether the Bill’s provisions cover pressing demands of the budget deficit, is the fact that the civil service as it is now, as opposed to its undifferentiated the growth in the number of employees has been form after Northcote-Trevelyan, he said: accompanied, sadly, by a productivity decline. The ONS’s own figures show that between 1999 to 2006 there was “I hope they do, but as my hon. Friend raises this point let me an average fall of 0.7 per cent. per year in education add that I am happy to ensure that they do. There is an issue to do with the growth of next steps agencies and non-departmental productivity and a decrease of 2.1 per cent. per year in public bodies, which have arisen since the reforms introduced by social care productivity, and that between 2001 and the previous Administration in the early 1990s. It is certainly of 2005 there was a decrease of 2 per cent. in health care concern to me that NDPBs can appoint their own staff and that productivity. they are not public servants; that creates difficulties and can lead We would like a more transparent and efficient civil to unacceptable and unjustifiable levels of pay and wage drift, as well as other anomalies and conditions.”—[Official Report, 20 October service that is a better place in which to work. Many 2009; Vol. 497, c. 803.] extremely capable people, imbued with a public service ethos—we value that enormously—work in the civil My right hon. Friend has clearly thought about the service, but morale is very low. That is partly the result matter in depth and considers there to be some anomalies of a lack of transparency, efficiency and productivity. and problems, as well as some issues relating to the Public accountability is crucial, which is why we think question of when a civil servant is not a civil servant. that there should be a civil service annual report clearly If we are to place the civil service on a statutory laying out the definition of the civil service. That is what footing, as I hope we will, in respect of requirements for new clause 33 would achieve. We support amendment its practice and all that that entails, which I warmly 10, which was moved by the hon. Member for Cambridge welcome, the most elementary starting point would be (David Howarth), but if that does not proceed to a vote, to know who we are putting on a statutory footing. I we will want a Division on new clause 33 at a later stage. appreciate that that is a difficult problem. I also appreciate, 783 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 784 Governance Bill Governance Bill on the basis of the precise points that the Secretary of entirely lost in this legislation. The removal of the clauses State made in reply to my intervention on Second on the Attorney-General, among many other things Reading, that the issue has arisen to some extent as a that have been referred to today, is a reflection of that. result of the differentiation over time, and substantially However, Lord Falconer was wrong about one thing: so relatively recently, of what one might describe in civil service reform, as embodied in clause 1. The clause common-sense terms as the civil service. Hon. Members applies part 1 of the Bill to the civil service of the state, have already given examples of boards and bodies that on which new clause 33 would give us an annual report. one might consider to be part of the civil service in Clause 1 is radical, but in a curious way: it is a triumph common-sense terms, but which turn out not to be. for the status quo. Indeed, in places it even offers the There are also examples of bodies that one would think possibility of restoring the status quo ante for the civil were not part of the civil service, but which turn out to service. The clause entrenches the principle of an be just that. It is therefore important to find, one way or independent, impartial and permanent civil service recruited another, a mechanism for the Bill to perform that on merit. In doing that, we need to recognise that, by service of defining who is and who is not a civil servant comparison with the civil services of many other major for the purposes of the rest of the legislation. democracies, we are at one extreme in our levels of Incidentally, a little while ago I tabled a written impartiality and impermanence. It is on such issues that question that sought to define that point in terms of I am at my most conservative, and I welcome this NDPBs, agencies and various other things. I regret to triumph of the status quo. say that my question has not yet been answered, but We have had—and to a large degree we still have—a perhaps any answer that might be provided in the civil service that works. The history books suggest that fullness of time could provide some illumination of since Northcote-Trevelyan dealt a blow to patronage, what we are discussing in connection with the Bill. we have been well served by the people who have come Amendment 10 might not quite fit the bill in that into the civil service, and we are still well served. Anybody respect. However, at the very least, I would like my hon. who has worked there will know the sense of duty, Friend the Minister to provide in her reply to this commitment and loyalty that the civil service can show debate an assurance that the definitions in the Bill will to the Government of the day. There is still such a thing be urgently considered, and that some thought will be in this country as a public service ethos, and the best of given to introducing some mechanisms, whether in the them in Whitehall have it in bucketfuls. If clause 1 Bill or associated with it, to clarify what we are talking makes a contribution to reaffirming that ethos, the about in the rest of the Bill as it proceeds through the legislation will have been worth while. The civil service House. is an important pillar of our constitution. This legislation I am not sure that new clause 33 fits the bill. Although will strengthen that pillar, if only a little. it says that the Minister for the civil service In this triumph of what I have described as the status “must publish and lay before Parliament an annual report on the quo, we need to realise that we are setting aside many functioning of the civil service of the state”, other approaches to the relationship between elected it does not really take us any further on the fundamental Ministers and, on the one hand, Parliament and, on the question of what the civil service of the state is. Although other, the appointed civil service. One of those approaches, “the civil service of the state” might indirectly be defined which has often been discussed, would be to make the in the laying of a report on its functioning before civil service more directly accountable to Parliament, as Parliament, that is not necessarily the case. the Institute for Public Policy Research has suggested. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Another approach, favoured by the think-tank Reform, Front Bench will consider how a mechanism might be would be to give Ministers more say over the direction found to supply that definition more satisfactorily, accepting, of the permanent civil service establishment. That would as I think everybody in the House does, that this is by take us in the direction of the United States. A third no means an easy task and that any definition would by approach would be to keep most of the civil service as it no means be constant, but that such a definition is is, but to superimpose at the top a cabinet system in nevertheless important for the integrity of the Bill as it each Department. leaves this House. I will not linger on those approaches, except perhaps briefly on the third one. My guess is that one reason Several hon. Members rose— that support for civil service legislation has gathered The Temporary Chairman (Sir Nicholas Winterton): pace in many quarters, especially in Whitehall itself, is Order. Before I call the next speaker, may I remind the that we have, de facto, tried the cabinet system over the Committee of the decision taken by the Chairman of past decade and, having tried it, found it wanting. I Ways and Means to include the clause stand part debate wonder whether that is why Lord Butler, among others, in the debate on the group headed by amendment 10? changed sides on this issue. He was a former opponent of a civil service Bill; now he is a supporter. Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): I am grateful When people refer to the growth of presidentialism for that ruling, because some of my remarks will range under Tony Blair, what they mean is the growth of a more widely than those that we have heard hitherto. I cabinet of advisers, largely temporary and party political, agree with everything that I have just heard, in a typically right at the heart of No. 10 and No. 11. Their position thoughtful and interesting speech from the hon. Member was reinforced by Orders in Council in 1997, giving for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead). advisers direct authority over civil servants. That was a When Lord Falconer described the Bill in his evidence profound mistake that has rightly been reversed. Cabinets to the Joint Committee not as a constitutional reform should not be allowed to become part of our political or renewal Bill, but as a “Constitutional Retreat Bill”, culture. The bypassing of the civil service that came he was basically correct. The radicalism of the early with that, and the impact of sofa government, were prime ministerial statement in 2007 has been virtually both disastrous for us. Clause 1 and its companions do 785 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 786 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Andrew Tyrie] Morale must have reached a terribly low level for that exchange to have taken place, and that applied right not guarantee that that will not happen again, but they across Whitehall, not just in that Department. send a clear legislative signal that that is not how our civil service should operate. That is why I said earlier 7.45 pm that this chapter of the Bill will entrench not only the The Better Government Initiative—a group of Britain’s status quo but, to some degree, a status quo ante. most senior civil servants—stated in a recent report, When I was in Whitehall, I was not a supporter of which is available on the web: proposals for a civil service Bill. I thought that such “Providing candid advice has always been a difficult and legislation would be a waste of parliamentary time. potentially risky task for the civil service. There are suggestions”— However, I then sat on these Benches in the early years that phrase is typical mandarinese— of the Blair Administration watching the new Labour Government bypassing officials and prejudicing the “of a loss of confidence amongst civil servants that this is a part ability of the civil service to offer impartial advice to the of their job.” Government, and that led me to conclude that we might We need this legislation. It was envisaged in the 1850s, need legislation to protect the civil service from the new and it is typically British that it should have taken us culture of advisers and to signal Parliament’s support 150 years or so finally to get round to it. There have for the ethos of public service set out in the civil service been several periods in which having the civil service on code of conduct, which had recently been improved a statutory footing might have helped it, including prior to the arrival of the Blair Administration. periods during the past decade. Let us now get the job This part of the Bill lays the ground on which a done. proper relationship between the civil service and politicians Mike Penning: I can say that the Minister of State, can be maintained for the future. That relationship Cabinet Office, the right hon. Member for Basildon requires Ministers to provide strategic direction to the (Angela E. Smith) is a friend of mine, as I have known civil service. It also requires the civil service, led by her for many years, but by the time we get to the end of permanent secretaries, to implement that direction, having this part of the Committee stage, I might be stretching warned Ministers—and having been given a reasonable that friendship an awfully long way. I shall be doing that opportunity to be heard by Ministers, a point that not out of spite, however, but because I want the Bill to Robin Mountfield has made on numerous occasions—if be successful. It is an enormously important Bill, and those officials think that the direction of a policy is we have waited an awfully long time for it. That is why I deeply flawed or would result in a failure of delivery. rise to support amendment 10 and new clause 33. I I do not pretend that the lack of leadership that we accept the point made by the hon. Member for have seen from time to time recently is a uniquely Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) that, on their own, Labour disease. It has afflicted previous Governments neither does everything that he and I are looking for, as well. It is, however, reasonable to ask how things have but together they are a damned sight better than what is operated recently. For example, how much strategic in the Bill at the moment. direction can have come from the merry-go-round of ministerial reshuffles that we have had? I think that we I am very suspicious of why the Government have have had four Secretaries of State for Transport in three not defined what they mean by the civil service, and years, four Defence Secretaries in four years, and four perhaps the Minister will explain that to me when she Home Secretaries in five years. The right hon. Member responds to the debate. We have heard that earlier for Airdrie and Shotts (John Reid) takes the record, legislation specified all the way through which organisations having held seven Cabinet posts in eight years. He were part of the civil service. That was excellent for described the Home Office as “not fit for purpose”, but Parliament, as well as for the employees of those agencies it was ministerial leadership, not the civil service, that and Departments, who knew exactly where they stood. was not fit for purpose. On the day before an important report is due to be published on MPs’ expenses, the need for trust in this From what I have seen, the civil service aches for Chamber and in the Government is paramount. So why good leadership. It wants to implement the plans of on earth have the Government not set out in the Bill elected Governments, not to thwart them. It is when what a civil servant is, and what the civil service is? politicians fail it—and only then—that some civil servants are transmogrified into a caricature of Sir Humphrey. An organisation that comes under my shadow remit This is not just about a failure of strategic leadership, is the Food Standards Agency. I do not know whether it however. Ministers have also used the civil service in is part of the civil service or not. It rightly tells me that ways that they should not have. The Neill Committee it is an arm’s length organisation set up by Parliament, warned, as early as 2000, that Ministers were pushing with a chair, and that it is an independent advisory senior civil servants to the margin in the provision of body. As far as I understand it, however, its employees advice, while interposing their own advisers. The role of are civil servants. We would never know such things the adviser was being transformed into that of a spin from looking at the Bill. doctor, a fact reflected most notoriously in the Jo Moore I am suspicious about where all the civil servants affair at the Department for Transport, Local Government might have gone. My shadow responsibilities involve and the Regions. Imagine the state of morale when the the Department of Health, and if I am lucky enough to permanent secretary in that Department was quoted as become a Minister of the Crown in that Department, I saying—I shall not use his exact language; I shall just shall want to know how many civil servants I am use the first letter of some of his words—the following: responsible for, where the money is going and what “We’re all f***ed. I’m f***ed. You’re f***ed. The whole department departments within that structure are accountable. The is f***ed. It’s the biggest cock-up ever. We’re all completely Bill, as it is structured, gives me absolutely no idea. I f***ed.” have asked people who come to visit us from the various 787 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 788 Governance Bill Governance Bill agencies whether they are civil servants. Some say yes, and and some say no. The public, and the civil service, want “clarify lines of Civil Service and ministerial accountability and these arm’s length organisations to be set out in the Bill, responsibility.” right at the start, so that we know where we are. Soon after the election, in July 1998, in response to a My right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham House of Lords report, that commitment was confirmed. (Mr. Maude) spoke earlier about the size of the civil In 2000, the Committee on Standards in Public Life, service. Under Gershon, the civil service should have on which I sit—albeit not on the current Kelly inquiry shrunk; actually, however, we find that it has not. Perhaps into Members’ expenses—produced its sixth report and the Government are worried that if they build the called for a timetable for a civil service Bill. In their numbers into the Bill we would all know just how big response in July 2000, the Government confirmed their the Government payroll is within the civil service. commitment to a civil service Act. In 2001, the Committee We know that there has been a huge increase in on Standards in Public Life asked whether the Government consultants in the civil service and Departments. Do were going to go ahead, and Sir Richard Wilson, giving they fall under the remit of the Bill? Do they have its evidence, said yes. Ministers again provided the protection? Some of them have very senior roles in commitment. Departments. Senior consultants are working in the In 2002, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Department of Health, for instance, with civil servants Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), then deputy leader of the working below them. Such people do not have civil Labour party and the Deputy Prime Minister, said that service contracts; they are consultants in a Department. the Government would “produce the Bill”. Needless to Are they covered by the Bill? If they are not, how do the say, nothing happened. The Public Administration civil servants working below them know where they Committee produced its excellent report towards the stand? end of 2002 or early in 2003 and subsequently a draft I suspect that there has been some smoke and mirrors Bill, but again nothing happened. In fact, I promoted in the civil service, so that numbers have been lost from the Bill and presented it to the House. We had a debate the payroll but people have come back in through on 21 January 2004, in which the Government again another door as consultants. There is some evidence of said that they had given a commitment and would that. We need to know the exact costs involved in the produce their own Bill—the Chairman of the Committee civil service—new clause 33(3)(b) would make the may well remember this—before the end of the Session. Government come forward each year with those exact They did, but we were not given the parliamentary time. costs—but how can we calculate them if we have no It is somewhat surprising that it has taken these long idea which Departments, which quangos, which arm’s 13 years to get to the point where we are now. The issue length organisations are part of the civil service? of who is a civil servant and how the problem should be dealt with was raised in a debate on 21 January 2004 by It is important that both amendment 10 and new the then Member for Milton Keynes, North-West. The clause 33 are agreed to in order to take the Bill forward. hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) They are not perfect—I accept what the hon. Member might well have been involved in that debate. The point for Southampton, Test (Dr. Whitehead) said—but they has been made repeatedly since, so it seems extraordinary are a lot better than what we have now and we might be that when a Bill is before us, we find no full definition of able to build on them as the Bill goes through the civil servants of the state. The Minister may well tell us House. that it will be left for the Civil Service Commission to Mr. Heald: I want to follow the remarks of my hon. decide in every case whether a person who is making a Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) in saying complaint is a civil servant, although it may be that the how welcome it is that chapter 1 applies to the civil Government are expecting the courts to sort it out. service of the state and that there is protection for the That is clearly unsatisfactory after this long period of impartiality and objectivity of our civil service, which I gestation. believe to be precious. During the early years of the Mike Penning: My hon. Friend’s point about the Labour Government, that was damaged by a change in courts is an important one. As I understand it—I am the way in which the Government did their business. not a learned gentleman—the courts look at Parliament’s Some of the traditional, formal methods by which we intent when an Act is brought into being, but we do not had ensured good government came to be damaged know what Parliament’s intent is because it is not built during that period. It is right to say that there is a into the Bill. How, then, will the courts be able to judge different climate for the civil service generally today, it, when we do not know the Government’s exact intentions? with more people entering it at a later stage rather than trained civil servants moving up the grades. That also Mr. Heald: My hon. Friend makes the point exactly— impacts on why it is necessary to have a civil service Act. what are the courts to make of it? That is worrying if we look at the problems of recent years, which my hon. There is a long history to this issue—my right hon. Friend the Member for Chichester mentioned. Let us Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr. Maude) went take the concern that Alastair Campbell and Jonathan back 150 years—but as recently as 1996 the Liberal Powell had executive authority over civil servants, were Democrats and the Labour party had a joint commission more powerful than the Cabinet and were able to tell and pledged themselves to a civil service Act. The civil servants right across Whitehall what to do—the commission said in clear terms before the 1997 general key concern that they had executive powers. The concern election that a civil service Act should about the inquiry into Dr. David Kelly is another example, “give legal force to the Code”— as Lord Hutton found it difficult to piece together the civil service code— exactly what had happened because there were no records “which should be tightened up to underline the political neutrality or minutes kept of meetings with civil servants, as they of the Civil Service” had been conducted in “sofa government” ways. 789 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 790 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Heald] decide, in each case, who was and who was not a civil servant. In all the years during which they have operated, That had an effect on the formal, traditional ways of they have never raised that concern; nor have they doing things. Certainly when I was a Minister, the idea raised it in the context of the Bill. I understand and am that a civil servant would fail to make a note of a grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s concern on behalf of meeting, or even of a ministerial telephone call, did not the commissioners, but they have expressed no such occur; civil servants would listen in and make notes of concern themselves. the discussions. A record was kept and everyone was I explained the exclusions in our debate on an earlier protected by it. By the time we get to the Hutton amendment. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman report—this is also true of the Butler report into the again that the civil service, ministerial and non-ministerial war in Iraq—there had been a breakdown in those Departments, Executive agencies and non-civil servants traditional ways of doing things, which had previously are not covered. [Interruption.] I am trying to be helpful. safeguarded the impartiality and objectivity of the civil The hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) service, while also being for very good for Ministers, asked what was meant by because they provided some formal structure and pattern “civil service of the State”. to the way in which they carried out their work. I can tell him that exactly the same term was used in the It is the breakdown in standards, together with some Superannuation Act 1972, and no problems have arisen further changes in the civil service, that led senior from that. former civil servants to say that some form of legislation must be enacted. It is welcome that the Bill is where it is, Mr. Tyrie: When the Minister says that non-civil but it is sad that we have not been able to find in it a servants will not be covered, does she understand that definition of a civil servant that is capable of holding there is an element of circularity in her definitions? water. We want to see protections enshrined in statute partly because, as I alluded to earlier, the nature of the Angela E. Smith: I use the term merely for the purpose civil service is changing. of clarity. There was a time when there was a very standard I was surprised that the hon. Member for Hemel entry procedure and individuals would move up through Hempstead (Mike Penning) was not embarrassed to ask the grades, being educated as public servants as they his question. I assure him that it does not test our went. In a world where many people are now rightly friendship, because, as always, I am happy to help. coming into the civil service without that background, However, he admitted that, as a shadow Minister, he it is important to have more structure than we had does not even know whether, were he ever to be a before. Over the years, it has been said that we need a Minister, one of the bodies that would come under his provision that clearly defines the role of Ministers’ responsibility would consist of civil servants. I can tell special advisers and the formal civil service. I am glad him that it would, and that I should be happy to help that the Bill does that, but I also want a proper definition him in the future. of what a civil servant is, so that we do not end up with a lot of court cases and a mess instead of what should Mike Penning: What I was asking was whether that be a major reform. body fell within the scope of the Bill. I was not asking about its current status. The Bill refers to no organisation, 8pm so it is a question of interpretation. Angela E. Smith: I thank hon. Members for their thoughtful contributions and I hope to deal with the Angela E. Smith: The hon. Gentleman is completely points that they have raised. wrong. As I have made clear, civil servants who are not Most of the debate seems to have revolved around excluded will fall within the Bill’s ambit. amendment 10, but clause 1 lists the parts of the civil The right hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Maude) service to which the Bill will not apply. That approach mentioned those employed by non-departmental public was supported by the Joint Committee that considered bodies. As he said, they are not part of the civil service. the draft Constitutional Renewal Bill. Hon. Members They have deliberately been placed at arm’s length, and have suggested that the approach in our 2004 draft Civil it has deliberately been ensured that they are not part of Service Bill was to define the parts of the civil service to Government Departments. which the Bill applied by providing general descriptions and then listing particular inclusions as well as exclusions. Mr. Heald: The Minister may have just answered the My hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test question. A list was drawn up in 2004. Is she saying that (Dr. Whitehead) asked whether the Government would all employees of the bodies that were on that list on continue to try to find the best way of dealing with the 2004, on which there had been consultation, are civil matter. The Government have done that on numerous servants, and that the only people who are not are those occasions since 2004, which is why we are in our current employed by the security services—as the Bill says—and position. After consideration, it was felt that more by non-departmental public bodies? frequent amendment of primary legislation would be required if we were to ensure the maintenance of an Angela E. Smith: Everyone who is a civil servant is accurate list. The Bill therefore lists the parts of the civil obviously included unless he or she is specifically excluded. service to which the provisions do not apply, a move Everyone who signs the civil service code is included that was supported by the Joint Committee. unless he or she is specifically excluded. Concern was expressed about who would and would The right hon. Member for Horsham asked an interesting not be defined as a civil servant. The hon. Member for question—whether commissioners themselves were civil North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) said that it would servants. The answer is that they are not, because they be difficult for civil service commissioners to have to are appointed by the Queen. 791 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 792 Governance Bill Governance Bill New clause 33 would require the Minister for the however, was initiated by the hon. Member for North-East Civil Service to publish an annual report giving details Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald), who asked what would happen of the structure, cost and state of the civil service, and if it was not clear, in a particular case, whether the Civil proposes that separate reports may also be published in Service Commission should act or not. If a person respect of the devolved Administrations. Currently, each complained to the commission that activity within Department and agency, along with the devolved Government was in breach of the code, would the Administrations, publishes an annual report setting out commission have jurisdiction or not? In the first instance, in detail its work, performance, structure and financial that is an important question for the commission, but what position. The Office for National Statistics is responsible happens if the applicant disagrees with the commission’s for publishing, each quarter, the number of civil servants decision and goes to court? Are the Government saying employed by each Department and agency. The ONS that they are giving up on the question of what counts also produces annual statistics that provide for more as a civil servant and that they will leave it up to the detailed information on the composition of the civil courts, and are doing so in circumstances where, if one service. The detailed information, published by the ONS were looking for parliamentary intention, it is not possible as “Civil Service Statistics”, contains more than 40 different to tell what that is, because we in this Committee do not tables, and a range of demographic and other information. know what it is? The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) Mr. Maude: Does the Minister not find it slightly gave the FSA example. The FSA was included in the embarrassing that the Cabinet Office, where she is Minister 2004 draft Bill, but the other FSA—the Financial Services responsible for civil service matters, has shrugged off Authority—was not, so the question is this: which FSA any knowledge of civil service numbers, and regards the are we talking about? The answer to that is unclear. information as something to be tracked randomly by the ONS? Is that information not central, and should Mr. Tyrie: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the not the centre of Government be in possession of it? courts will use Pepper v. Hart? They will look at what has been said here, and they will find what I think was Angela E. Smith: Mr. Winterton—[HON.MEMBERS: the only clear definition, which is that anybody who has “Sir Nicholas.”] I am sorry; Sir Nicholas. I should have signed the civil service code is a member of the civil thought that the ONS would be quite insulted—as I service. That seems to suggest that anybody who decides hope you are not by my mistake—by the word “randomly”, they want to sign it can then call themselves a civil and by being dismissed in such a way. I can think of no servant. more authoritative body to provide statistics for the Government, the House and the wider public. David Howarth: I am glad the hon. Gentleman raised The civil service commissioners publish an annual that point, because that appeared to be the import of report on their activities, which could include comments what the Minister said. Since the civil service code is on on the state of the civil service. I would argue that the web, I presume anyone can print it off and sign it, comprehensive information is already available. If new and thereby define themselves as civil servants. This clause 33 were accepted, it would duplicate current does not make any sense at all. practice. It would impose additional burdens and costs that would be disproportionate to any perceived benefit— Mike Penning: As I understand it, a consultant working which I cannot identify—and it is really not necessary. in a Department has to sign the civil service code, but they are a consultant rather than employed by the civil David Howarth: This has been a very frustrating service. Will they fall inside or outside the definition? debate. Whenever the Minister has been asked whether a certain body is part of the civil service, she has David Howarth: That is a very good question. Judging asserted with absolute certainty that she knows the by the Minister’s account, it depends on whether the answer, and has given an answer. If the answer were as person wants to sign it, and if they do want to sign it, clear as that, the Government would surely be in a then they are a civil servant. This is not at all satisfactory. position to provide a definition, so why have they not The problem in terms of the courts is that they will try done so? to work out the intention of Parliament and we are The Minister has said that anyone appointed by the trying to get the Minister to put on record what her Queen is not a civil servant. That is a good start, but intention is, but she seems entirely incapable of doing why? She has said, although I was not too sure about so. She gives the impression that she has some sort of this, that everyone who is employed by a non-departmental definition to hand, but we cannot work out what it is. public body is not a civil servant—or was it every She gives examples, but if one attempts the normal case member of one? Again, I was not too sure. Why? law technique of joining them together to produce a Perhaps the members are appointed by the Queen, but rule, one cannot work out what the rule is that lies obviously the employees are not. I am not sure why that behind those examples. This seems to me to be entirely is so clearly the case. Either the Government have at the the wrong approach, and if the Joint Committee supported back of their mind a definition that they are not revealing that approach it could not have been in a position to to us, or they do not have one and are simply trying to work out what it was doing. look certain about something of which they are not really certain. Dr. Tony Wright: I have some sympathy with what This has been an interesting debate. Many points has been said, but as someone who has sat through were raised about the general principle of the Bill, countless discussions of this issue over the years I have which I support for the reasons given by the hon. to say that the conclusion the Government have arrived Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie). The most important at is the conclusion most people have arrived at: that part of the debate on this amendment and new clause, this is the only simple way to deal with the matter. 793 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 794 Governance Bill Governance Bill David Howarth: If the distinguished Select Committee significant breach of the code. We would therefore support an Chairman is saying that the only way to deal with this is approach which gave the commission in addition to the duty to to leave it to the courts, that is a counsel of despair, consider a complaint from the civil servant—clause 9—the discretion especially in circumstances such as these in which we to investigate matters at its own initiation. We would envisage that the commission would want to exercise this discretion only in are not offering the courts any guidance. The approach cases where the burden of suspicion was substantial.” in the 2004 Bill seems to me to be better. If one cannot offer a coherent definition, the next best thing to do is Therefore, we have the commissioners firmly saying not to do nothing, which is what the Government are that they do think it would be appropriate for them to doing, but to provide a list. The 2004 Bill did that, and have the ability to undertake investigations of civil amendment 10 would require the Government to go service issues on their own initiative, and by extension down that road. It would also give them the power to to report on such matters under their reporting obligations. change the list from time to time. We have a similar arrangement with the parliamentary ombudsman, who is a servant of this House. We ask the I do not want the Committee to divide twice on the ombudsman to produce reports on cases and to produce same issue, and I recognise that new clause 33 includes an annual report, but we explicitly give that office the within it the same idea that the Government should be ability to make special reports to the House where there under an obligation effectively to tell us who they are are particular issues it wants to bring to the House’s counting as being in the civil service. New clause 33 attention. It is entirely sensible and straightforward that would also goes further than amendment 10 by requiring we would give a similar provision to the commissioners. that there should be important information about costs, They want a provision of this kind and it seems sensible and I fully support what was said about that. Therefore, for them to have one, and I am sure the Government if an opportunity arises to support new clause 33 in the cannot think of any reason why they cannot have it. I Lobbies, I will urge my hon. Friends to do so, but I beg am simply asking for these restrictive words to be to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. removed from the Bill. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I rise very Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. briefly simply to support what the hon. Gentleman has just said. I agree with him. Schedule 1 The Temporary Chairman: That is the briefest speech I have heard. THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION

8.15 pm Mike Penning: I also rise to support the amendment tabled by the hon. Gentleman. When the Minister rises Dr. Tony Wright: I beg to move amendment 55, to say whether she supports this provision or not, can page 33, line 22, leave out ‘, in exceptional cases,’. she say exactly what the “exceptional circumstances” Following the tortuous nature of the previous discussion, are? “Exceptional circumstances” could mean something I offer brevity and simplicity. I also rise to press the completely different to me, to the Minister, the courts, merits of an amendment that I assume the Government to the civil service or to the commission. What does will have no difficulty in accepting. I simply want to “exceptional circumstances” mean? If the Minister can remove the single phrase “in exceptional cases” from define that exactly in law, the judges will not necessarily the reporting requirements being laid upon the Civil have such a field day when this provision comes before Service Commission, as I can see no reason why it them, which I am sure it will. should be included. In the previous exchanges my right hon. Friend the David Howarth: I was going to raise exactly the same Minister prayed in aid the commission and said it had point, and would simply add this. Who decides whether raised no issues about the matter under discussion. It is a case is “exceptional”? If the commissioners decide fair to say, however, that it has expressed concerns what is exceptional, the amendment of the hon. Member about its ability to undertake investigations of code-related for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) does not achieve very matters and of civil service-related matters when it much, because it is purely within the commission’s thinks it is appropriate to do so and to report on those discretion to decide. If Ministers are to decide, that to the House. would obviously be completely objectionable. Ministers When giving evidence to the Public Administration should not be able to make such a decision; that would Committee back in July, the First Civil Service undermine the commission’s independence. If the courts Commissioner said: are to decide, that just adds to the complication of the “I think we agreed in the end that we might well be involved in situation without any obvious benefit. an investigation if we saw a matter so serious or in fact so The Minister’s choices in replying to the debate appear systematic, and I repeat that because, if what we were hearing to be these. She should either say that the commission from any source was that there was a systematic concern, then itself gets to decide what the “exceptional circumstances” clearly that would be exactly the kind of issue that might cause the Commissioners to launch an investigation of their own to see are—in which case, why is the phrase in the Bill at just what was going on.” all?—or she should just give way to the amendment The First Civil Service Commissioner also wrote to me proposed by the hon. Gentleman. very recently, on 19 October, and stated: “Despite some concerns about the potential for politicisation Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I am and resource constraints, the commissioners recognised that there grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; I just want us may be occasions where it would be right for the commission to to proceed with this debate in good order. Several carry out such an investigation if there were clear evidence of a Members, including my hon. Friend, have used the 795 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 796 Governance Bill Governance Bill phrase “exceptional circumstances”. Actually, the term annual report, about any matter relating to the carrying in the Bill is “exceptional cases”, which is slightly different. out of its functions. This reflects the system practice. It is easier to define “exceptional circumstances” than it Members have asked why the word “exceptional” has is the “exceptional cases” that must be brought to one’s been used. The commission has produced an annual attention by the report. In fact, it is even more difficult report each year since 1855. It covers activities undertaken for the Minister to defend that inclusion within the during the year in upholding the principle that selection schedule. for appointment to the civil service must be on merit David Howarth: I thank my hon. Friend, who is and on the basis of fair and open competition. The absolutely right: the phrase is “exceptional cases”, which report also covers its other work, such as its role in raises a further question about what kind of case is promoting the core values of the civil service as set out involved. Does this mean a case brought before the in the civil service code, and a summary of finances commission on a particular complaint? What other during that year. kind of case is it? [Interruption.] Since 1855, the commission has never produced an additional report, so by definition, it would be “exceptional” Mike Penning: The Justice Minister is indicating from if it were to do so. However, the provision is there in the a sedentary position that Members of this House should legislation should it wish to do so. So “exceptional” is a not stand up and scrutinise the Bill, which gives us an statement of fact, in that to produce an additional indication of the way this Government are going. report would be exceptional. However, it should be The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael within the power of the commissioners to take that Wills): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? decision if they feel they want to produce another report. Mike Penning: No, I am not going to give way. I I therefore urge my hon. Friend to withdraw his absolutely agree with what the hon. Member for Cambridge amendment. The points that he made are covered, in (David Howarth) has just said. The phrase “exceptional that, if the commissioners want to produce a further cases”—I am sorry, Sir Nicholas, if I slightly misled report, they are entirely able to do so under the legislation. the Committee when I used the phrase “exceptional circumstances”—makes it even more difficult for the Dr. Tony Wright: It is really very difficult to keep a commission to define what it should look at and what it straight face, Sir Nicholas. What is really disappointing should not. Surely the logical thing to do is to remove is that when the process of this Bill began, all the Front this phrase and let the commission decide, which is what Benchers were saying, “Of course we will be open to it is there for. amendments. This Bill is not fixed in stone, and we will David Howarth: Yes, that is a very good point. bring it forward in a spirit of taking sensible amendments.” I apologise, Sir Nicholas—I was attempting to make Indeed, when the Cabinet Secretary was in front of our a speech even shorter than that of the hon. Member for Committee just last week, the same was said when we Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing). I failed to do so, but I raised a similar issue with him, so I am afraid there is a support the amendment. mismatch here with the spirit in which we all engaged upon this Bill. There is a genuine desire across the Angela E. Smith: I think I can help hon. Members on House to get the Bill done. It is rooted in a political this point—again. Let us see whether they will accept consensus, so it is very difficult to understand why the these assurances. Government want to insist on something that, as the Schedule 1 contains provisions relating to: membership Minister has just described it, is completely unnecessary. of the new Civil Service Commission; the appointment Given that we simply want the commission to be able of the First Civil Service Commissioner and the to make a report if, in certain circumstances, it wants to commissioners, and their tenure of office; the status and do so, why on earth would we want to stop it? The powers of the commission; the regulation of its proceedings; commission itself would only do that if it thought the the appointment of staff; arrangements for assistance; occasion warranted it. We have reached a level of absurdity, delegation and committees; financial provisions; accounts; and I say to my right hon. Friend the Minister in a spirit publication of the commission’s annual report; and of comradeship that resistance is not necessary at this transitional arrangements relating to the old Civil Service point. Commission. The schedule states that the commission must produce Angela E. Smith: I shall be brief. My hon. Friend an annual report talks of our resisting his amendment, but all I am “as soon as practicable after the end of each financial year”, saying to him is that the points that he has raised are and may, in exceptional circumstances— covered in the legislation. There is nothing in the legislation to stop the commissioners, at any time, producing another Mr. Heath: Cases. report if they wish to do so. What he suggests is already Angela E. Smith: Cases; my apologies. It may, covered, so the amendment is unnecessary. “in exceptional cases, prepare a report at any other time about any matter relating to the carrying out of its functions.” 8.30 pm Amendment 55, proposed by my hon. Friend the Member Dr. Wright: In the spirit of not only co-operation and for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), would delete the not being difficult, but total mystery, I beg to ask leave phrase “in exceptional cases”. Although I think the to withdraw the amendment. amendment is unnecessary, we are in agreement about what this provision should mean for the commission. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The legislation gives the commission powers to prepare Question proposed, That the schedule be the First and lay before Parliament a report, in addition to an schedule to the Bill. 797 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 798 Governance Bill Governance Bill David Howarth: I wish to raise two points and ask commission and putting it into statute, so they want the two questions about the schedule. Both points relate to commission to be an independent body and to function the independence of the commission and both were well. I can, thus, allay the hon. Gentleman’s fears on raised by either the Joint Committee or the Public that account. Administration Committee in their deliberations on The provisions in the Bill do not, in any way, affect the Bill. The first point is about the power of the the commissioner’s access to the Public Administration Government—in this case, presumably the Minister for Committee. That is an important and influential safeguard the Civil Service—over the commission’s budget. Can for the commissioner’s role in regulating the Executive. this Minister explain what the procedure will be for As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, the Joint Committee setting the commission’s budget? Will the Government recommended two amendments to the draft Bill’s schedule of the day—the Minister for the Civil Service, in in respect of commissioners. The first was for a requirement particular—have the power to set conditions on the way that the commissioners should be appointed on merit, in which that budget is spent or to limit the content of on the basis of fair and open competition. The second the commission’s activities using a budgetary mechanism? was that compensation for loss of office should be If that is the case—some concern was expressed on this extended to all commissioners, rather than just the first point by the two Committees—that will, of itself, undermine commissioner. The Government accepted both those the commission’s independence. recommendations, and the published schedule to the The second point relates to the appointment of the Bill incorporates those amendments. In addition, the first commissioner, which is obviously an important Minister for the Civil Service must consult the First matter. I understand that the Bill says that the first Ministers of Scotland and Wales and the relevant commissioner is appointed by the Government, after Opposition leaders. consultation with various other people. A proposal Question put and agreed to. was made—I believe by the Public Administration Schedule 1 accordingly agreed to. Committee—that as that was not enough to ensure the independence of the first commissioner, the appointment Clause 3 should be subject to the agreement of someone outside government; one suggestion was that the agreement of MANAGEMENT OF THE CIVIL SERVICE the Leader of the Opposition should be required in Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I order to ensure the complete independence of the first beg to move amendment 48, in page 3, line 7, at end commissioner. I have not heard from the Government add— as to why they rejected that particular proposal, and I ‘(6) The Minister for the Civil Service shall delegate the wish to ensure that the Civil Service Commission should appointment and approval of senior civil servants to senior posts be as independent as possible. in the Scottish Executive to the Head of the Home Civil Service, acting on advice of the Civil Service Commission.’. Angela E. Smith: Schedule 1 contains provisions relating This is a simple and modest amendment that seeks to to the membership of the new Civil Service Commission— transfer the appointment of senior civil servants from the hon. Gentleman mentioned that—and the other London to Edinburgh. May I start by giving a bit of the issues relating to the appointments that I referred to a context before I get into the meat of the amendment? moment ago. He asked about the commission’s financial This is not the preferred position of the Scottish National independence. Provisions provide for the commission to party. We would, quite obviously, prefer to see a properly publish and lay before Parliament an annual report, as devolved civil service accountable to Scottish Ministers has been discussed. As now, that can include a summary and the Scottish Parliament, much like those that we of information on the funding of the commission. That observe in normal legislatures around the world—in is an obvious vehicle for the commission to bring forward normal, self-respecting Parliaments. That is what we any concerns that it might have about the adequacy of seek in terms of a civil service for Scotland, but it is not its funding or any comments that it wishes to make on what we intend to seek when it comes to the appointments the funding. Indeed, an exceptional or special report of senior civil servants. We would prefer that decision to could be prepared to address those particular concerns. be made by the First Minister of Scotland, and we would see him as responsible for making those key David Howarth: I thank the Minister for that assurance, appointments. That is what happens in any self-respecting although I am not sure that it is enough to ensure the normal Parliament or legislature throughout the world. independence of the commission, especially if it will get That is what we would preferably seek in order to try to into trouble for complaining about conditions governing ensure that we had the proper deal and arrangements its own budget or, at the very least, be worried about for Scotland. whether making a complaint would make the problem Through amendment 48, I am putting forward the of its budget worse the following year. agreed position of the Labour party, the Conservative party and the Liberal party, as agreed with the Calman Angela E. Smith: It is embarrassing to see so much commission. I am prepared to set aside our preferred cynicism in just one hon. Member. The report is to be option—what we would ideally like to see—so that made to Parliament and it will be for Parliament to progress can be made. This is important. Progress can make a judgment on whether it thought the funding be made, and sometimes it is important for us to set was adequate. I do not think that Parliament would aside our preferred and ideal options so that we can wish to take action against the commission in any way move forward to consensus. Sir Nicholas, you know me at all; I think that Parliament would expect the commission well enough to know that I always try to be as helpful as to make a response on the adequacy of its funding. possible in such cases. This evening I am trying to be Obviously, the Government are bringing this forward, helpful, constructive and positive so that we can make making sure that there is full independence for the progress on this serious key issue. 799 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 800 Governance Bill Governance Bill I do not want the Front Benchers from all the political Mrs. Laing: I am puzzled as to why the hon. Gentleman parties to get up and thank me for tabling this amendment. is supporting the Calman commission this evening, That is not necessary; I am not looking for it, and I instead of putting forward the position of the Scottish would feel a little embarrassed if they did so, so perhaps National party. they can restrain themselves and remain seated while I make the rest of my speech. However, I expect to secure Pete Wishart: I know that the hon. Lady listens to from the Front Benchers of all the Calman parties their every word that I say, and I am saying that I am overwhelming and enthusiastic support. I expect to see prepared to set our ideal position aside so that we can them and their right hon. and hon. Friends going make progress. The amendment would be at least a start through the Lobby, overwhelmingly backing their position. to transferring some decisions on the civil service from I expect that, because it is their agreed position, as London to Edinburgh. I am hoping to enlist her support agreed with the Calman commission. There can be no in getting it through, although the crucial difference excuse whatsoever for a failure to support my amendment between the Calman process and the Scottish Government’s this evening. I am looking forward not just to support national conversation is that we trust the people of but to enthusiastic support. Scotland to make the choice. We are prepared to take our proposal to the Scottish people, but the hon. Lady The only thing that surprises me is that it has been rejects that. When the Conservatives come to contest left to me, a humble Scottish National party Member, the next election, they might find that there is a heavy to table an amendment on the agreed position of the price to pay in Scotland for their failure to allow the Labour party, the Conservative party and the Liberal people there to have a choice. party. I thought that when we had an opportunity to The amendment represents the agreed position of the make progress on some of the very important Calman Labour, Conservative and Liberal parties, all of which recommendations, there would almost have been a race. have the opportunity to support it this evening. What I thought that the Labour and Conservative Whips happens if they do not? That is a key question. Is Offices would have tried to outdo each other in a Sir Kenneth wasting his time? Is he sitting in Glasgow stampede to be the first to the Public Bill Office to table university wondering what will happen to the rest of his this amendment. But we have not heard a peep from recommendations? This evening, with this key piece of them, and it is left to a humble Back Bencher from the legislation, there is an opportunity for the House to Scottish National party to get to his feet and try to enact one of his recommendations, but he will be observing ensure that we get some progress on this matter—to try our debate and wondering, “What on earth is going to to advance the agreed position of the Labour, Conservative happen to the rest of them?” and Liberal parties. I find it a bit odd that it is left to me What will parliamentarians in the Scottish Parliament to do this task, but I look forward to their support. who are keen to see progress made and more powers The Minister will know that there will be precious devolved make of their colleagues in Westminster rejecting few opportunities to introduce some of the Calman this proposal? recommendations in the next few months. Parliamentary Stewart Hosie (Dundee, East) (SNP): No Labour time is tight and we have here an ideal opportunity to Members are even here. Where are they? Our party has ensure that one of the key proposals of the Calman a better turn-out. commission is introduced. For the life of me, I cannot understand why there could possibly be any reluctance Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend asks where the Labour to support this modest but important amendment, which Members are. Looking at the deserted Labour Back is in line with Labour, Conservative and Liberal party Benches, I am wondering the same thing. No Scottish policy. Labour Member is present, with the honourable exception I tried to frame the amendment as closely as possible of the Parliamentary Private Secretary sitting behind to what was suggested in recommendation 4.21 of the the Minister. Calman report. My amendment reads: Where is the Scottish Secretary? I though that this was his big idea. The Calman commission was supposed “The Minister for the Civil Service shall delegate the appointment the vehicle for looking at devolution 10 years on. Here and approval of senior civil servants to senior posts in the Scottish Executive to the Head of the Home Civil Service, acting is a chance for the right hon. Gentleman to get one of on advice of the Civil Service Commission”. his key proposals through, but he is not even here. That is appalling, Sir Nicholas. I am sure that when The Calman commission’s recommendation 4.21 states: you look at all the empty Benches, you are wondering “The responsibility for appointing, or approving appointments what on earth Scottish Labour Members are doing. I of, senior civil servants to senior posts in the Scottish Government am also sure that the people of Glasgow, North-East should be delegated by the Prime Minister to the Head of the are looking at what is going on this evening. They will Home Civil Service, acting on the advice of the UK Civil Service Commissioners.” see that whereas my hon. Friends sitting next to me and I are ready to debate and consider an important They are almost identical. recommendation for Scotland, not one Scottish Labour I do not want the Minister to say that I am trying to Member is present on the Government Back Benches. twist or misinterpret what was suggested about her The people in Glasgow, North-East will be looking very position in relation to the Calman commission. That is carefully at who represents the Scottish interest best in not my intention: I have been as helpful as I can be by this House. framing the amendment so that it is as close as possible What happens if the amendment is rejected? I believe to the commission’s original wording. The only difference that it will mean that the Calman commission is not that I can see is that this Government cannot get their worth the paper that it is written on. That will be very head around the fact that Scotland has a Government, closely observed—but in the spirit of my helpful rather than an Executive. contribution, I will make the Minister a deal. 801 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 802 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Pete Wishart] Prime Minister. It seems a perfectly sensible suggestion to transfer power over senior appointments in Scotland I am sure that she will stand up and say that the from a politician—the UK Prime Minister—to the head amendment is not suitable for this Bill, and so on. of the home civil service for the United Kingdom, the However, if she can give me a cast-iron commitment Cabinet Secretary. and guarantee that a specific piece of legislation will be Some people might think that that is a purely symbolic introduced in the next few months to get this proposal gesture, but it would provide some protection for the through, I will not have to go through with the appalling process of appointment to the civil service in Scotland, prospect of embarrassing Labour Members by asking which does not exist now. Given the history of prime them to vote against their own measure. That is my ministerial interference in senior civil service appointments contract with her this evening. that we suspect has been going on at United Kingdom I do not want to be so cruel—[Interruption.] My level—at least under a previous Prime Minister—that colleagues are egging me on, but I believe that I owe it seems an entirely sensible thing to do. It raises the to Labour Members to give them an opportunity to try question why the Bill retains the power of the Prime to put this matter right. The Minister can do that on Minister, as Minister for the Civil Service, to interfere their behalf but, if she does not say what I want to hear, with senior appointments at United Kingdom level—an I will press the amendment to a vote. issue that seems to have disappeared from the Bill, in comparison with previous drafts. Perhaps that is the Mrs. Laing: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving reason why the Government are nervous about the way again, as I have a genuine question. He is right to amendment. point out that no Government Back Benchers are present I come back to the point about devolution. It seems to ask questions on behalf of those who are puzzled by perfectly reasonable to have a different system even on the amendment, so in their absence I shall try to do so. that question in Scotland, compared with the rest of the I understand what the hon. Member for Perth and United Kingdom. I do not think that threatens the North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) is saying about the unity of the civil service, and it provides a sensible way Calman commission. I understand the conclusions of forward. Speaking as an outsider, I think that the Sir Kenneth Calman and his colleagues, and I have Calman commission provides a sensible way forward some sympathy with them. However, it is difficult to see for further devolution to Scotland, so I approve of the how the amendment will transfer the power to which amendment and would vote for it if the House were to the hon. Gentleman refers from London to Edinburgh. divide on it. I understand that he is saying that the amendment is only a step in the right direction. It would take power Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): I away from institutions in London, but it does not say have the highest regard for the hon. Member for Perth specifically that power will rest in Edinburgh. and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). His humility goes before him. I admire his talents—his musical talents 8.45 pm more than his political talents. As he knows, I represent a midlands seat in England, but when I look from afar Pete Wishart: The hon. Lady has obviously never at the amendment, I begin to think that he is selling out. looked at the amendment. It seeks to achieve the transfer He might be selling Scotland down the river with the of the appointment of senior civil servants from London amendment. The trappings of office are getting to the to the home civil service in Edinburgh. It is the start of Scottish National party. The amendment is a pathetic a process. That is the hon. Lady’s position, too. It is piece of symbolism. If he really stood up for Scotland— what her party agreed in the Calman commission. It is her party’s position, as well as the position of the Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): It’s your party policy. Labour party and of the Liberals. I have heard from a sedentary position the assurance Mr. Watson: Hey, I am on the Back Benches. It might that the Liberals will support the amendment, and I be my party policy but I can say what I want now. The thank them for that. It is now a matter for the Minister. hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire is selling She can either assure me without equivocation that she Scotland down the river with that amendment. It is a intends to introduce a separate piece of legislation to pathetic piece of symbolism to score points in a by-election. achieve the aim of the amendment, or we will have to go He has spoken eloquently, but the amendment would through the ridiculous, almost grotesque spectacle of not fundamentally change the relationship between London Labour Members voting against their own policy. It is and Edinburgh, and he knows it. I want to stand up for up to the Minister. the people of Scotland and the voters in Glasgow, North-East, so I shall oppose the amendment if he David Howarth: I am not sure whether I can speak on presses it to a vote. behalf of the old Liberal party, of which I used to be a member, but I can certainly speak on behalf of the Angela E. Smith: First, I welcome the conversion of Liberal Democrats. I would urge Liberal Democrat the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Members to support the amendment if it is pressed to a Wishart) to the Calman commission. That will receive vote. widespread support from Labour Members—even though As the hon. Gentleman said, the amendment does there was no great support for the commission from the not represent the separation of the civil services which Scottish National party, which would not even take part some in his party seek. It is simply a measure of further in it. I listened to the hon. Gentleman carefully when he devolution politically—not by further devolving the said that he was being helpful, and I wish that I could power itself, but by removing a power from the UK believe him. 803 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 804 Governance Bill Governance Bill The provision in the hon. Gentleman’s amendment measure. It is not pathetic, as the hon. Member for West was one of the recommendations in the Calman Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson) says, because it would be commission’s report on Scottish devolution, and the unfair to describe the Labour party’s position as pathetic, Government said publicly that we were carefully considering and I am not prepared to do that. our response to the report in the round, and that we would produce our response by the end of the year. The Mr. Watson: The hon. Gentleman is turning into a proposals from the Calman commission, which the real London luvvie, defending this amendment, which SNP did not take part in, were wide-ranging and significant, would hand no power to Scotland. He should be ashamed and there is widespread agreement, including from Kenneth of himself, and apologise to his constituents and to his Calman himself. The proposals are being treated with party. due attention, and considerations are not just cherry-picked one after another. They have to be looked at in the Pete Wishart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that round, and all issues must be considered. useful intervention. The prospect of my becoming a It was argued that there is almost no autonomy for London luvvie is probably several degrees removed Scottish Ministers, but it must be said that they, quite from reality. rightly, have a large degree of autonomy in their day-to-day The amendment is a modest measure, and I tabled it management of the devolved Administration in Scotland. to try to be helpful. It is about being constructive and However, the hon. Gentleman also stated that he would making gentle progress towards securing what we believe withdraw his amendment if I guaranteed that legislation is a greater ambition for Scotland. I thought that by would be introduced in the next few weeks. If any discussing the agreed position of the Labour party, the Calman commission recommendations were taken forward, Conservative party and the Liberal party, we could start they would be achievable under the provisions of the to move the traffic in the right direction. Bill as it stands, and no legislative change would be The Minister went on about some nonsense to do necessary. It is important that the Government consider with our commitment to Calman. May I say to her—she the Calman report in the round, rather than looking at is not listening, but I will say it anyway—that where one or two items and cherry-picking them. there is agreement on Calman, for goodness’ sake let us act on it? There are several parts of Calman that we Mrs. Laing: I have a genuine question about practicality. have absolutely no problem whatsoever about implementing, If the amendment were agreed to, would it pass power such as its recommendations on the devolution of firearms from London to Edinburgh, or would it pass power legislation and on drink-driving. If the Unionist parties—the only from one London office to another London office? London-based parties—think that it is a good idea and That is a genuine question. we think that it is a good idea, let us do it; there should be no problem with that. But for some reason, Calman Angela E. Smith: I shall wait for inspiration—but has been presented as an all-or-nothing package, so we there does not seem to be any great transfer of power in cannot do the good things and leave aside some of the the amendment at all. The right way to address the nuttier suggestions that he mucked about with at the concerns is to have a proper response to the Calman edges. Where it is useful, where it is constructive, and commission in the round. If the amendment is pushed where it takes things forward, let us get on and deal to a vote and Members vote against it, they will not be with it. voting against Calman; they will be voting for a proper The Minister’s response has not been satisfactory, considered response to the whole report. and that is disappointing and unfortunate. We are now going to see the ridiculous spectacle of Labour Members David Howarth: I should remind the Minister that we walking through the Lobby voting against their own are in Committee, so we are allowed speak again in the position and their own proposals. I am very much same debate. She did not explain precisely how the ends looking forward to witnessing that. that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) desires in moving the amendment can be Mrs. Laing: I have a lot of sympathy for what the achieved through the Bill as it stands. I would be very hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete grateful if she were to put on the record exactly how Wishart) said, as I often do when we take part in the they could be, because I can see no such power. However, same debates. He has highlighted an important issue. she seems to be claiming that it exists. However, as the Minister says, the whole Calman report has to be looked at as one entity, and it would be wrong Angela E. Smith: There are two points. First, the hon. to press a small part of its recommendations in the Bill. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) is quite right: Having said that, I, like the hon. Gentleman, look there would be no transfer of power to Scotland; the forward to the Government’s responding to Calman power would remain with the Prime Minister. Secondly, soon, so that we can get on with these matters, because I can assure the hon. Member for Cambridge (David we believe in power resting in Edinburgh where it should Howarth) that the legislative power exists; no legislative do so. change would be necessary for the provisions of the amendment to be introduced. Question put, That the amendment be made. The Committee divided: Ayes 55, Noes 286. Pete Wishart: I have very much enjoyed this particularly Division No. 236] [8.57 pm illuminating debate. So that we understand the discussion, I should say that the amendment would take the power AYES to appoint senior civil servants in Scotland out of the hands of the Prime Minister and put it into those of the Barrett, John Bottomley, Peter head of the home civil service. It is a very modest Beith, rh Sir Alan Breed, Mr. Colin 805 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 806 Governance Bill Governance Bill Brooke, Annette Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Fisher, Mark Laxton, Mr. Bob Browne, Mr. Jeremy McCrea, Dr. William Fitzpatrick, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Burt, Lorely McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Flello, Mr. Robert Lepper, David Campbell, Mr. Gregory McGrady, Mr. Eddie Flint, rh Caroline Levitt, Tom Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Mulholland, Greg Flynn, Paul Linton, Martin Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Oaten, Mr. Mark Follett, Barbara Lloyd, Tony Davies, Mr. Dai Öpik, Lembit Foster, Mr. Michael Love, Mr. Andrew Dodds, Mr. Nigel Pelling, Mr. Andrew (Worcester) Lucas, Ian Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Pugh, Dr. John Foster, Michael Jabez Mackinlay, Andrew Durkan, Mark Rennie, Willie (Hastings and Rye) Mactaggart, Fiona Farron, Tim Robertson, Angus Francis, Dr. Hywel Malik, Mr. Shahid Featherstone, Lynne Robinson, Mrs. Iris Gapes, Mike Mallaber, Judy Foster, Mr. Don Robinson, rh Mr. Peter George, rh Mr. Bruce Mann, John George, Andrew Rowen, Paul Gerrard, Mr. Neil Marris, Rob Harvey, Nick Russell, Bob Gilroy, Linda Marsden, Mr. Gordon Heath, Mr. David Sanders, Mr. Adrian Goggins, rh Paul Martlew, Mr. Eric Hemming, John Smith, Sir Robert Goodman, Helen McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Hermon, Lady Swinson, Jo Griffith, Nia McCafferty, Chris Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Webb, Steve Griffiths, Nigel McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Horwood, Martin Williams, Mr. Roger Grogan, Mr. John McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Hosie, Stewart Williams, Stephen Gwynne, Andrew McDonagh, Siobhain Howarth, David Willott, Jenny Hain, rh Mr. Peter McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Hunter, Mark Wishart, Pete Hall, Mr. Mike McFall, rh John Keetch, Mr. Paul Younger-Ross, Richard Hall, Patrick McGovern, Mr. Jim Kramer, Susan Tellers for the Ayes: Hamilton, Mr. David McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Laws, Mr. David Hywel Williams and Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McIsaac, Shona Leech, Mr. John Mr. Angus MacNeil Hanson, rh Mr. David McKenna, Rosemary Harman, rh Ms Harriet McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Havard, Mr. Dai Meacher, rh Mr. Michael NOES Healey, rh John Meale, Mr. Alan Abbott, Ms Diane Chaytor, Mr. David Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Merron, Gillian Ainger, Nick Clapham, Mr. Michael Heppell, Mr. John Michael, rh Alun Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Clark, Ms Katy Heyes, David Miliband, rh Edward Allen, Mr. Graham Clark, Paul Hill, rh Keith Miller, Andrew Armstrong, rh Hilary Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hodge, rh Margaret Mitchell, Mr. Austin Atkins, Charlotte Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Moffatt, Laura Austin, Mr. Ian Clelland, Mr. David Hood, Mr. Jim Mole, Chris Bailey, Mr. Adrian Clwyd, rh Ann Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Balls, rh Ed Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hope, Phil Morden, Jessica Banks, Gordon Connarty, Michael Hopkins, Kelvin Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Barlow, Ms Celia Cook, Frank Howarth, rh Mr. George Mudie, Mr. George Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cooper, Rosie Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mullin, Mr. Chris Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, rh Yvette Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Munn, Meg Begg, Miss Anne Corbyn, Jeremy Humble, Mrs. Joan Murphy, Mr. Denis Benn, rh Hilary Cousins, Jim Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Benton, Mr. Joe Crausby, Mr. David Illsley, Mr. Eric Naysmith, Dr. Doug Berry, Roger Creagh, Mary Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Norris, Dan Betts, Mr. Clive Cruddas, Jon Irranca-Davies, Huw O’Hara, Mr. Edward Blackman, Liz Cryer, Mrs. Ann James, Mrs. Siân C. Olner, Mr. Bill Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cummings, John Jenkins, Mr. Brian Osborne, Sandra Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Mr. Jim Johnson, rh Alan Owen, Albert Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cunningham, Tony Johnson, Ms Diana R. Palmer, Dr. Nick Blunkett, rh Mr. David Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Jones, Helen Pearson, Ian Borrow, Mr. David S. David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Kevan Plaskitt, Mr. James Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Lynne Pope, Mr. Greg Brennan, Kevin Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Mr. Martyn Pound, Stephen Brown, Lyn Dean, Mrs. Janet Jowell, rh Tessa Prentice, Mr. Gordon Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Denham, rh Mr. John Joyce, Mr. Eric Primarolo, rh Dawn Brown, Mr. Russell Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Prosser, Gwyn Browne, rh Des Dobbin, Jim Keeble, Ms Sally Purchase, Mr. Ken Buck, Ms Karen Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara Purnell, rh James Burden, Richard Doran, Mr. Frank Keen, Alan Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Butler, Ms Dawn Drew, Mr. David Keen, Ann Reed, Mr. Andy Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Eagle, Angela Kelly, rh Ruth Reed, Mr. Jamie Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Eagle, Maria Kemp, Mr. Fraser Reid, rh John Cairns, David Efford, Clive Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Riordan, Mrs. Linda Campbell, Mr. Alan Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kidney, Mr. David Robertson, John Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Engel, Natascha Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Caton, Mr. Martin Ennis, Jeff Knight, rh Jim Roy, Lindsay Cawsey, Mr. Ian Etherington, Bill Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ruane, Chris Challen, Colin Farrelly, Paul Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Ruddock, Joan Chapman, Ben Field, rh Mr. Frank Lammy, rh Mr. David Ryan, rh Joan 807 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 808 Governance Bill Governance Bill Salter, Martin Tipping, Paddy The Minister may reply to my points by saying that Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Todd, Mr. Mark the clauses on recruitment mean that Ministers cannot Seabeck, Alison Touhig, rh Mr. Don intervene except within the very narrow tramlines of the Shaw, Jonathan Trickett, Jon recruitment process that is set out, but I do not think Sheridan, Jim Truswell, Mr. Paul that that is sufficient and I would like an explicit exclusion. Simon, Mr. Siôn Turner, Dr. Desmond Simpson, Alan Turner, Mr. Neil If Members want a rationale for such an exclusion, Skinner, Mr. Dennis Twigg, Derek we have been provided with one in the past few days, Slaughter, Mr. Andy Ussher, Kitty with the sacking of an independent scientific adviser. Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Walley, Joan Although he was not a civil servant, the incident raises Smith, Ms Angela C. Waltho, Lynda exactly the sort of issues that are relevant to this debate. (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Ward, Claire Indeed, my colleagues tabled new clause 42, which Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Watson, Mr. Tom addressed the point. It had the great advantage of Smith, Geraldine Watts, Mr. Dave topicality, but the great disadvantage of not being timely. Smith, rh Jacqui Whitehead, Dr. Alan Because the circumstances arose over the weekend, it Snelgrove, Anne Wicks, rh Malcolm could only be tabled yesterday and therefore could not Soulsby, Sir Peter Williams, rh Mr. Alan be selected for today’s debate. I shall not speak in detail Southworth, Helen Williams, Mrs. Betty about it, therefore, but it would have given protection to Spellar, rh Mr. John Wills, rh Mr. Michael Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wilson, Phil independent scientific advisers to do their job as independent Stewart, Ian Wilson, Sammy scientists. Stoate, Dr. Howard Winnick, Mr. David However, I shall press the question with the Minister Straw, rh Mr. Jack Winterton, rh Ms Rosie about why Ministers will not be expressly forbidden to Stringer, Graham Wood, Mike hire and fire civil servants. That should be a basic Stuart, Ms Gisela Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun principle that is enshrined in the Bill. Otherwise, there is Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Wright, Mr. Anthony the possibility of abuse and people being removed for Tami, Mark Wright, David political purposes. If we are to give proper protection to Taylor, Ms Dari Wright, Mr. Iain civil servants, we can do it only through a provision of Taylor, David Wright, Dr. Tony the kind proposed. Thomas, Mr. Gareth Tellers for the Noes: Thornberry, Emily Steve McCabe and 9.15 pm Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Kerry McCarthy The Minister has been asked repeatedly, even during the debates on the first three clauses, to explain what Question accordingly negatived. has changed between the time of the draft Civil Service Bill in 2004 and the Bill before us today. I must say that Question proposed, That clause 3 stand part of the the explanations given by her advisers have not always Bill. been convincing. I hope that, on this occasion, we will at least get some sort of explanation of why a provision Mr. Heath: I want to ask the Minister a simple that was felt necessary in 2004 is not felt necessary in question that relates to an obvious omission from this 2009. In the absence of such an explanation, it is hard part of the Bill. In the 2004 draft civil service Bill, there to give any credibility to the clause. was an explicit statement in clause 4(4) that Mrs. Laing: The hon. Member for Somerton and “Nothing in this section confers…power to recruit, appoint, Frome (Mr. Heath) has got his priorities a bit mixed up. discipline or dismiss civil servants, or…any other power for the day to day management of civil servants.” It is touching that he wishes to protect civil servants, but I believe that it is the duty of the House to require the Ministers have the power to hire and fire civil servants, accountability of civil servants. That accountability is but that provision made it explicit that they should not derived through ministerial accountability to Parliament. do so. This Bill does not repeat that explicit assurance, There has to be a chain of accountability, therefore, but it should. from civil servant to Minister to Parliament. That is The Public Administration Committee made that what the Conservative party, in other circumstances, point in its response to the draft Constitutional Renewal has proposed. In so far as the clause brings that about, Bill, when it said: to a certain extent, we support it. I am disappointed to “Giving Ministers the general power to appoint and dismiss see the hon. Gentleman get his priorities so mixed up. I civil servants does not seem in keeping with the Government’s hope that the Minister has not got her priorities mixed up. commitment to a civil service recruited on merit and able to serve administrations of different political persuasions.” David Howarth: Is the hon. Lady saying that any Government of whom she might be a member would I agree with that. The Joint Committee on the draft Bill think it appropriate for Ministers to hire and fire individual said: civil servants? “While Ministers can legitimately be consulted about particular moves within the civil service, Ministers should not be involved in Mrs. Laing: Of course not; that is already protected. appointment or dismissal of individual civil servants without the The Liberal Democrats should not be quite so touchy; express approval of the Prime Minister. We invite the Lord my criticism of them does not mean that I am saying Chancellor to follow up on his offer to look again at the drafting…to that everything that they have said is wrong. They ought reflect this.” to calm down. I am merely saying that the real issue is I do not agree with the Joint Committee, because I do accountability. It is a pity that clause 3 does not go not think that the Prime Minister should be able to give further in respect of the accountability of civil servants explicit approval either. I want clear protection for civil and Ministers to the House, which is then accountable servants from this extraordinary power that Ministers to the people. That should be the principle on which we have. work. 809 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 810 Governance Bill Governance Bill Angela E. Smith: I listened with interest to the hon. Ministers should hire and fire civil servants. When my Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) talking hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) about why his new clause was not selected. I put it to put it to her that she might support the hiring and firing him, however, that it might have had the advantage of of civil servants by Ministers, she said that of course topicality, but it had the disadvantage of not being she did not and that that was outrageous. We really do relevant to the civil service—it was not about civil expect some coherence of thought and some logic in the servants. contributions made in this House, especially from the The Government made it clear in their response to Front Bench of a party that aspires to government. the Joint Committee that the provisions in the Bill do not alter the current power to manage individual civil Mrs. Laing: The hon. Gentleman has completely servants. That will, as now, continue to be delegated to misrepresented what I said. He is so touchy that the the head of the civil service and to permanent heads of slightest bit of criticism appears to send him into a Departments. temper. I do not want to take any more of the Committee’s time on this matter, but he must not misrepresent what I David Howarth: Will the Minister give way? said. Angela E. Smith: I will do so only if the hon. Gentleman promises to make a sensible point. Mr. Heath: I am indeed in a temper: a good temper, as I always am. When the Official Report is studied, it David Howarth: I am not sure whether the Minister’s will be clear what the hon. Lady said and how little it point was sensible. She said that independent scientific resembles what she apparently means. advisers are not civil servants. How does she know? When it comes to the Minister, however, I shall ask Angela E. Smith: Because they do not have a civil the question again—obviously I am not going to get a servant contract. They have not signed the terms and response, so this is the last time that I will ask it. Why conditions of a civil servant. They have not signed up to was something right just in 2004? It was not right the ministerial code. The case to which the hon. Member because I tabled it as an amendment or because the for Somerton and Frome referred did not involve a civil Joint Committee said that it wanted it, but something servant. that the Government put down as a crucial element, I understand the hon. Gentlemen’s concerns, but the using the following words, which I have already quoted: provisions in the Bill do not signal a change in ministerial “Nothing in this section confers…power to recruit, appoint, involvement in individual appointments. The power to discipline or dismiss civil servants”. appoint is constrained by subsequent clauses that require One would have thought that that was a key protection, recruitment to the civil service to be based on merit, but now the Minister says, “It’s completely unnecessary: following fair and open competition. That is regulated it’s understood; it’s tacit. We no longer need to say by independent civil service commissioners in accordance that.” What has changed? with recruitment principles. Civil servants are protected Why was that necessary then, probably on the advice by statutory legal protection and employment laws. It is of some of the same civil servants who now advise her right that the power to manage remains with the Minister that it is not necessary? I do not think it unreasonable for the Civil Service and the Secretary of State, who are, for the Committee to be given an explanation about as the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) that. Simply to assert that something that the Government made clear, ultimately accountable to Parliament for said was necessary is now not necessary is an insufficient the management of the civil and diplomatic services argument. It is very regrettable that we are proceeding respectively, including for the setting of terms and with the Bill on the basis of assertion and counter-assertion, conditions overall. rather than explanation and consideration of the underlying The civil service code makes it clear that the civil principles. service “supports the Government of the day in developing and implementing Angela E. Smith: It is with some regret that I rise its policies, and in delivering public services.” again to speak on this issue, but the hon. Gentleman The code also makes the very point that I have just misunderstands the whole basis of the Bill. He asks made, which is that civil servants what has changed since 2004. In principle, nothing has “are accountable to Ministers, who in turn are accountable to changed. The points that he made are there: a principles- Parliament.” based approach is being taken. He says that there is There appears to be some misunderstanding on the nothing— Liberal Democrat Benches about the approach of the Bill. The Bill has taken a principles-based approach. David Howarth: Will the Minister give way? None of the principles has changed since 2004, and it has not been felt necessary to list specific activities or Angela E. Smith: If I may finish the point, it might specific civil servants, as the hon. Member for Somerton help the hon. Gentleman to listen before jumping in. and Frome would seek to do. With that explanation, I hope that the clause will stand part of the Bill. The Joint Committee heard the same arguments. The provisions do not alter the current position that the Mr. Heath: I have now heard two speakers, from the power to manage individual civil servants can, as now, Conservative Front Bench and from the Government be delegated to the head of the civil service. That was Front Bench, who are muddled in their thinking and good enough for the Joint Committee, which debated completely misunderstand the basic process that the and engaged with Ministers on the issue, and which is Bill is intended to elucidate. The hon. Member for content with the response. It is only the hon. Member Epping Forest (Mrs. Laing) went off on a mini-tirade for Somerton and Frome who fails to understand the about how we were completely wrong to question whether difference. 811 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 812 Governance Bill Governance Bill David Howarth: The Minister seems to be saying that David Howarth: I must therefore conclude that the this is now a principles-based Bill, as opposed to a ministerial code will not be statutory and will not have rules-based Bill, but then the question is: what principle the same degree of protection that the civil service code did the previous rule represent? The principle that the will have, as it is the purpose of this clause to entrench previous rule represented, it seems to me, was the principle that protection in law. The Minister must recognise that that Ministers should respect the impartiality of the it is a deliberate policy decision by the Government not civil service. However, that principle is not in the Bill, to give statutory force to the ministerial code because and we have had to design a new clause to try to insert they do not want the courts to interfere with Ministers. it. If that is not the principle that was involved, what That is fine, but I do not think she should pretend that principle was involved? the situation is otherwise.

Angela E. Smith: I sometimes wonder whether the Angela E. Smith: Any Minister who tried not to hon. Gentleman is serious about the points that he puts adhere to the principles of the ministerial code would forward. The impartiality of civil servants is in the find that they had to deal with the normal processes of legislation; it is quite clear— government, and that they might not be a Minister for much longer. David Howarth: But not Ministers. Mrs. Laing: I would like to ask the Minister why it is Angela E. Smith: Ministers’ respecting that impartiality deemed necessary to specify, in clause 5(2), that is implicit in the Bill. If Ministers are putting forward a Bill to the House and that Bill includes the impartiality “the Minister may publish separate codes of conduct covering civil servants who serve the Scottish Executive or the Welsh of civil servants— Assembly Government.” Mr. Maude rose— Given that codes of conduct are about matters of principle, why should those principles be different for Angela E. Smith: I give way in exasperation to the civil servants who serve the Scottish Executive or the right hon. Gentleman. Welsh Assembly? I appreciate that the policies and procedures are different, as indeed they should be in a Mr. Maude: I am grateful to the Minister for confirming devolved situation, but why should the codes of conduct that the Bill intends to make no change to the current be different? arrangements, which have persisted reasonably successfully for a long time without serious challenge. Will she also Angela E. Smith: They might not necessarily be different, confirm that the protection for civil servants against but they may be different if, after consultation with the ministerial political interference in recruitment, dismissal devolved Governments, different issues needed to be or promotion lies with the Civil Service Commission, as addressed. That is something that the Government would it has done for many years before this Bill eventually discuss with them. So they might address different came along, and that that protection will be given circumstances from time to time, but they do not have to. greater entrenchment by the Bill? Question put and agreed to. Angela E. Smith: It does indeed; that is one aspect of Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. it. It is also entrenched in the ministerial code, which Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill. ensures that Ministers should respect the impartiality of civil servants. I think that that is quite clear, but I suspect that the hon. Gentlemen on the Liberal Democrat Clause 7 Benches might wish to make that point, as they are not fully conversant with the legislation. MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR CIVIL SERVICE AND Question put and agreed to. DIPLOMATIC SERVICE CODES Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill. 9.30 pm Mr. Maude: I beg to move amendment 50, page 4, line 29, at end insert Clause 5 ‘with a fiduciary responsibility to spend taxpayers’ money responsibly.’. CIVIL SERVICE CODE Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the The civil service code and its entrenchment in statute Bill. is the central part of the civil service portion of the Bill. It is extremely important; we strongly support it. In a David Howarth: Clause 5 is about the civil service way, clause 7, which sets out some minimum requirements code, to which the Minister has just referred. She also for that code, is the heart of this part of the Bill. We claimed that the ministerial code was entrenched in the strongly support the values promoted here—integrity, Bill. Will she explain which clause mentions it? It is not honesty, objectivity and political impartiality.I am conscious defined anywhere in the definitions section; I think that that because the provision is so important, there is a she must have misspoken. danger of wanting constantly to add bells and whistles as if it were a Christmas tree, but we believe that a Angela E. Smith: No, I did not say that the ministerial further minimum requirement should be added. code was in the Bill. I said that the ministerial code As the Conservative party outlined in a paper, “It’s enshrines the impartiality of civil servants, and that YourMoney”, published in February this year, a fiduciary Ministers respected that impartiality. responsibility should be placed on civil servants. The 813 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 814 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Mr. Maude] There is, of course, already a provision enabling a permanent secretary who feels that he or she is being term generally means that someone trusted with the required to do something that is not in the interests of assets, wealth or well-being of a third party has a the taxpayer to put in writing to the Secretary of State a responsibility to manage them in the best interests of request that he or she—the permanent secretary—be that third party. We believe that that is essentially at the directed to implement the policy, but to my knowledge heart of much of what the civil service does, and we that has happened on only eight occasions in the past 12 would like to see it enshrined in the code. years. It did not happen when tax credits were introduced. We believe that all employees in the public sector Arguably it should have, because it is understood that should abide by the principles of fiduciary responsibility, robust advice was given to the Chancellor to which he but the proposed code does not cover the full spectrum refused to listen. There is a strong case for saying that, of people employed by the state. We discussed in the given the circumstances, the chairman of the Revenue context of clause 1 the lack of a definition about who is and the permanent secretary to the Treasury should covered. Many contract workers, agency temporary workers have put in writing to the Chancellor that they needed or employees of non-departmental public bodies are to be directed, because their advice was that such action not covered by the civil service code. We propose that a would be very harmful. separate code should be established for those employees, In the circumstances in which this country now finds stressing the same fiduciary responsibility. itself, with a ballooning public debt and a budget deficit I stress that we do not propose this fiduciary responsibility that seems to be out of control, incredible care with in any hostile spirit to civil servants; rather, I would say, taxpayers’ money will be of central importance in the the reverse. I believe that this provision would provide years that lie ahead. It seems to us really important that protection for civil servants, especially if it were backed protection for civil servants against being required to do with the amendments and new clauses grouped together things that are not in the interests of taxpayers should on clause 9, which would place an obligation on be entrenched. We think that Ministers should have a Ministers—building on a point made previously—to statutory obligation to respect the impartiality of civil respect the civil service code. Of course, the ministerial servants. We have a good deal of sympathy with a code already does that, although it is not, as the hon. Liberal Democrat new clause, which we hope will be Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) rightly pointed reached later. In the meantime, however, this amendment— out, entrenched in statute, but nor would the Bill achieve which reflects the central importance for the whole that. Executive of respecting and acting in the interests of Ministers have a duty to respect the civil service; they taxpayers—would provide an extremely valuable additional should respect not only its code of values, but its role in discipline. As I have said, it would provide protection providing advice. Of course Ministers are not obliged to for civil servants against being bullied into implementing accept the advice of their civil servants, but they should policies that were not in the interests of the taxpayer. surely always seek it, listen to it and make judgments after assessing it. When public money is spent badly or David Howarth: I sympathise very much with the inefficiently, it is very often the consequence not of civil intention behind the amendment. I do not think that it servants being lax, careless, inefficient or hopeless, but would do any harm to include a responsibility in the of them being forced to do things by unwise ministerial code and the Bill to ensure that public money is spent decision, often in the face of civil servants’ advice. wisely. My only worry relates to the use of the word I cited on Second Reading the example of the “fiduciary”, which gives the impression that the relationship introduction of tax credits. It is now well attested that between civil servant and Government is similar to the the then Chancellor, now the Prime Minister, was strongly relationship that used to exist between local councillors advised by civil servants in both the Revenue and the and their authorities in the days of surcharging. The Treasury that the way he proposed to proceed with tax word “fiduciary” always cropped up in surcharging credits would introduce serious risk of fraud and error, cases. all of which came about. The advice was ignored and Given the vast amounts of public money that go the result was a grave misuse of public money, not to through Departments, it would be entirely wrong to mention the enormous human misery caused to hundreds open up civil servants to the possibility of having to of thousands of low-paid, hard-working people who repay perhaps billions of pounds to the public. I do not found themselves required to pay back money that they think that that was the intention of the right hon. had received in good faith. Those people thought that Gentleman, but perhaps he should rethink the wording they were doing the right thing and obeying the law. of the amendment on a future occasion. The point about incorporating this fiduciary responsibility into the code of conduct is that if in those circumstances Dr. Tony Wright: This Bill has been through so many a Minister tells civil servants that they must go ahead previous incarnations that it is sometimes difficult to and implement the policy regardless, against their own keep up with it. In one of its incarnations, there was a advice, there is at least some protection for those civil list of various duties that civil servants would be obliged servants. to perform, including the duty “to discharge public functions reasonably and according to law” Mr. Gordon Prentice: Is that not already covered by the designation of permanent secretaries as accounting and another duty to do with standards of administration. officers for the Departments for which they are responsible? It seems to me that there are two possible logical positions: to set out the duties of civil servants, or to take the Bill’s Mr. Maude: There is no harm in making that designation approach and simply to say what are the core values. more explicit, and giving it some teeth by entrenching it There is not a case, however, for taking one duty—in in statute. this instance, fiduciary responsibility—and seeking to 815 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 816 Governance Bill Governance Bill insert it into the Bill without addressing all the other Clause 8 ones. There must be all or nothing, and this is just a gesture in the middle. SPECIAL ADVISERS CODE Angela E. Smith: I have listened carefully to hon. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): I beg to move Members’ comments, and it might help if I point out amendment 79, page 4, line 33, leave out ‘special’ and the following. Clause 7 sets out the minimum requirements insert ‘Ministerial’. for civil service and diplomatic service codes of conduct. Codes of conduct must require civil servants in the UK, The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Scotland or Wales to serve the Administration of the (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to day of whatever political complexion, and must contain discuss the following: Amendment 80, page 4, line 38, leave an obligation on civil servants to carry out their duties out ‘special’ and insert ‘Ministerial’. in accordance with the core civil service values as set out Amendment 53, page 4, line 39, at end insert— in the Bill: integrity, honesty, objectivity and impartiality. ‘(3A) The special advisers code must contain provision Amendment 50 would add the preventing a special adviser from— “fiduciary responsibility to spend taxpayers’ money responsibly” (a) authorising the expenditure of any public funds; to the minimum requirements of the code as set out in (b) exercising any power given by or under an Act of the Bill. The legislation sets out the core civil service Parliament or an Act of the Scottish Parliament; and values that are essential to maintaining an impartial (c) exercising any management function in relation to the civil service. The civil service code gives more details on civil service.’. the kinds of behaviour expected from civil servants in Amendment 81, page 5, line 1, leave out ‘special’ and clear and accessible language. It sets out the details of insert ‘Ministerial’. the core values under each of their headings. Under Amendment 82, page 5, line 3, leave out ‘special’ and “Honesty” it says that civil servants must insert ‘Ministerial’. “use resources only for the authorised public purposes for which Amendment 83, page 5, line 5, leave out ‘special’ and they are provided.” insert ‘Ministerial’. Under “Objectivity” it says they must Amendment 84, page 5, line 7, leave out ‘special’ and “provide information and advice, including advice to Ministers, on the basis of the evidence, and accurately present the options insert ‘Ministerial’. and facts”. Amendment 85, page 5, line 8, leave out ‘special’ and Under “Integrity” it says they must insert ‘Ministerial’. “comply with the law and uphold the administration of justice.” Amendment 86, in clause 15, page 7, line 38, leave out The requirement on the use of public money is set out ‘special’ and insert ‘Ministerial’. explicitly in the code under the core value of “Integrity”, Amendment 22, page 8, line 14, at end insert— where it says civil servants must ‘(e) those terms and conditions prohibit the special adviser “make sure public money and other resources are used properly from undertaking restricted duties.’. and efficiently”. Amendment 23, page 8, line 26, at end insert— I think that covers the matter. ‘(d) those terms and conditions prohibit the special I understand why the right hon. Member for Horsham adviser from undertaking restricted duties.’. (Mr. Maude) thought this particular duty was so important Amendment 24, page 8, line 38, at end insert— that it should be added to the Bill, but I think my hon. ‘(d) those terms and conditions prohibit the special Friend the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) adviser from undertaking restricted duties.’. is right—although he does not agree with me entirely—that Amendment 87, page 8, line 38, at end insert— there must be either a principle-based approach or a ‘(1A) A Ministerial adviser appointed to give party political more detailed approach. Adding the details of the advice to Ministers or to undertake other activities otherwise principles of one aspect of the civil service code to the inappropriate to a civil servant is to be termed a “political Bill would undermine the others in the code. adviser”. My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) (1B) A Ministerial adviser appointed for his professional made a point about accounting officers. The accounting experience to assist with specific projects or problems is to be officer has a personal responsibility for the propriety of termed a “specialist adviser”. the spending of all the money for which he or she is (1C) All Ministerial advisers must act only in the advisory and responsible. That is set out in various codes. not an executive capacity.’. I understand the point made by the right hon. Member Amendment 25, page 8, line 45, at end insert— for Horsham, and it is valid, but his proposal is unnecessary ‘(3) The following are restricted duties— because of the way in which the Bill is set out and the (a) authorising the expenditure of public funds; information that is contained in the code. (b) exercising any power given by or under an Act of Parliament or an Act of the Scottish Parliament; Mr. Maude: I have listened to the comments of the Minister and others. We think that this duty is an (c) exercising any function relating to the appraisal, reward, promotion or disciplining of civil servants in important part of the obligations on civil servants and any part of the civil service (including a part of the that a statement of that would give additional protection civil service to which this Act does not apply).’. to civil servants, but there are other ways of addressing New clause 15—Cap on number of special advisers— the issue and we should look into them further. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. ‘(1) The number of special advisers appointed by Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom shall be limited Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. according to the procedure laid out in subsections (3) to (6) of Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill. this section. 817 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 818 Governance Bill Governance Bill [The Second Deputy Chairman] Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West) (Con): That was 12 years ago. At the time, what was the proper way for (2) Until the procedure laid out in this section has been people to raise that issue and say that the situation was completed, no new special advisers may be appointed. either ineffective or improper, or both? (3) A Minister of the Crown must lay before parliament an order setting a limit for the total number of special advisers at Kelvin Hopkins: Well, it concerned me at the time. I any one time in the service of Her Majesty’s Government in the have been a member of the Public Administration United Kingdom. Committee for seven years, and we have discussed these (4) The order may make for provision for different Ministers of matters on a number of occasions. I have made very the Crown to be allowed to appoint different numbers of special strong criticisms of that mode of operating, which advisers. changed the nature of our constitution and the relationship (5) The order may make provision, within the limit referred to between Ministers and the civil service. It was a great in subsection (3), for there to be a limit to the number of special mistake. I have used stronger language than that many advisers who may be paid from public funds at any one time. times, which I will not use now—my hon. Friends who are also members of the Committee have heard me use (6) An order under this section comes into force when resolutions approving it have been passed by both Houses of it—when talking about authoritarian regimes and the Parliament.’. techniques they use to exert political control at every level. However, to an extent, we have rowed back from that position, which I very much welcome. 9.45 pm I want to divide the role of ministerial adviser again. Kelvin Hopkins: I say at the outset that I do not As my amendments point out, ministerial advisers come intend to press my amendments to a vote. One good in two types: specialist advisers, who are experts who reason is that, unfortunately, there are some slight technical can give advice on technical matters that will help a errors. However, they are important amendments and I Minister to do his job better; and political advisers or hope that my Front-Bench colleagues will at least consider hacks—the sort of job that I might have done in a incorporating their spirit, and even some of their wording, different regime. Long before I came into this place, I into the Bill at a later stage. They are about special worked as a political adviser within the trade union advisers and seek to replace the term “special” with movement. I used to use every opportunity to twist and “ministerial”, so that we know precisely to whom the turn politics as I wanted; that is what political advisers advisers are addressing their advice. It is a more accurate do. They act as advisers to Ministers—to one side; they word and it would clarify the role of special advisers in do not instruct civil servants. That is why we want to use future if they were called “ministerial advisers”. the term “ministerial adviser”. Such people give advice to Ministers—they do not act as civil servants—and The Public Administration Committee, of which I they are divided into those two categories. am delighted to be a member, has discussed the role of special advisers at some length. Perhaps other Members If I may say this, it is a good day to bury special also discussed this issue during the debate, but there is a advisers, to coin a phrase. We should restore the proper history to special advisers with which I have some role of the civil service as independent, impartial, neutral familiarity. In the 1970s, I knew Tony Benn and his and equally able to serve Governments of all persuasions. special advisers. However, the famous Francis Cripps Also, I hope that within the civil service there will be a and Frances Morrell operated strictly as his political range of views, so that good advice can come from all advisers; they did not have a role in advising or instructing sides—in fact, from different sides of the argument—within civil servants. What they did was useful and legitimate, the service itself. That is how it operated in the past and although it did not please the civil servants at the time. that is how it should operate again. Tony Benn’s habit was to speak first thing in the morning These amendments would restore the proper status of to his personal political advisers and then later to the Ministers, whose role has been played down. The Cabinet civil servants, so that he was well prepared for debating has not been the power it was in the past. I would like to with them later in the day. That was seen then by the see Cabinet government genuinely restored, so that civil servants as untoward. politics is really debated and thrashed out at Cabinet However, under Tony Blair the power of special level, and does not just come down from the political advisers went way beyond that; they took on a much advisers surrounding a Prime Minister—any Prime Minister. more powerful role. They were effectively directing civil servants, acting as an Executive layer between Ministers Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): My and civil servants. This was something new, and it hon. Friend and I share an interest in that history. looked as though it was politicising the civil service in When did we have something that he would describe as an unacceptable way. I was critical of that at the time, functioning Cabinet government? During what period and I think we have rowed back from that arrangement was that? to some extent. At the time, however, things went even further than Kelvin Hopkins: I do not wish to speak for too long, that. Some of the special advisers in Downing street although I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. were actually giving instructions over the heads of This issue has been drawn to our attention by some Ministers. At least two former senior Ministers are on former heads of the civil service who have been before record as complaining that their role was being marginalised. the Select Committee. They reminded us that back in They were being kept out of the picture because policy the days of the Wilson Governments, and perhaps those was being passed from Downing street direct to the civil of the Callaghan Governments, there was a remarkable servants by special advisers, almost making the Ministers range of views within Cabinet. It stretched from Tony irrelevant. I am glad to say that that has changed. Benn and Barbara Castle, on one side, to Roy Jenkins 819 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 820 Governance Bill Governance Bill and Shirley Williams, on the other, with several others programme motion earlier this evening has proven to be in between. Within such Cabinets a real debate on totally correct. We could have gone on debating this policy took place, representing a spectrum of opinion. I tomorrow, because it is a very important matter. am sure that the same was true of the Conservative party in times gone by, but our party certainly had David Howarth rose— genuine debate in Cabinet. Mrs. Laing: Before the hon. Member for Cambridge It has also been pointed out that in times past the (David Howarth) makes his speech—and I shall give Cabinet would, typically, see some 200 policy papers a way to him in a second—may I say that I entirely agree year—that is four a week, on average. Cabinet would with his amendments 22 to 25, on restricted duties? debate those papers and reach some kind of consensus David Howarth: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. on them. I understand that in one of the more recent In fact, I was simply going to ask her whether she would years, two policy papers went to the Cabinet. Considering support amendment 22 in the Lobby. It lays down the two papers compared with 200 represents a change. I principle that she was talking about, which is that civil like to think that we should have a genuine debate in servants should not be instructed by special advisers for Cabinet, with strands of opinion, whichever party is in precisely the reasons that she gave and because it undermines power—that should certainly happen when my party is the proper relationship between political appointees in power. Those strands should represent the broad and the civil service. If she is of that opinion, I would range of opinion within the large parties in our, essentially, like to test the opinion of the Committee on that two-party system—I apologise to the Liberal Democrats. amendment. That form of government was better than what we have had in more recent years—we might have avoided Mrs. Laing: I understand what the hon. Gentleman is some mistakes, on all sides, had we had it. Special saying. I do not think that it is necessary for the matter advisers should be replaced by ministerial advisers; we to be tested in the Lobby, but in principle I agree should have advisers giving advice to Ministers, not entirely with what he has to say. giving orders to civil servants. It is sad that the once noble role of special adviser—a person who served the civil service, Ministers, Parliament The Chairman: May I just advise the Committee that and therefore the people very well—has been so badly it would seem sensible to take clause 15 stand part with undermined by this Government over the past 12 years. this group of amendments? I have received representations I note that the Minister disagrees, but I hope that she about that and, as it is closely related, it would seem a will tell us right now that that balance will be redressed sensible thing to do. so that special advisers can go back to being proper special advisers again. Mrs. Laing: It is pleasure to agree with almost everything that the hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins) Dr. Tony Wright: I shall be extremely brief. It is has just said. [Interruption.] I hope that I am not doing unfortunate—in fact, that is hardly the word—that we him any harm in doing so. It is sad that the idea of the have reached a part of the Bill that has some real meat special adviser was first invented to assist Ministers and in it and there is simply no time to discuss it. I hope that civil servants, so that such a person could play a hybrid the Government will say how we can deal with the rest role between the civil servant and the political office of the Bill, because at the moment the Committee will and political duties of the Minister. be unable to do so. Over the years, we have had endless I do not think that this is declaring an interest, but I arguments about special advisers, and we do not need should say that I was a special adviser from 1990 to to repeat them now. Let us hope that we have got it out 1994. I recall very well the mostly unwritten code that of our system, but surely we must agree that we have to we observed carefully. There was no question in those know what special advisers can do and what they cannot days of special advisers telling civil servants what to do. do. In a Bill that sets down the core values of our I know that the Lord Chancellor would agree with my system of our government, we need to say on the face of comments—were he in the Chamber—and those of the it what special advisers can and cannot do. Surely we hon. Member for Luton, North, because he was one of have to test the will of the Committee on that. the first special advisers when he worked for the then David Howarth: I agree entirely with the hon. Member Mrs. Barbara Castle. He undertook that position with for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) and I think that the the same distinction that he has shown since, and there way to test that opinion is to press amendment 22 to a was no doubt whatsoever as to what special advisers vote, so I shall ask you, Sir Michael, if we can do that in did. due course. What is sad is the fact that, as the hon. Member for I should also mention very briefly new clause 15, Luton, North described, the Government decided in which would at least require the Government to say 1997 to change the role of special advisers and almost what the limits on the numbers of special advisers overnight increased their number from 38 to 70 and should be. At the moment the Bill, as drafted, would more. More importantly, they changed their role and allow thousands of special advisers to be appointed, allowed special advisers to give instructions to civil which would entirely undermine the senior civil service servants, thereby undermining the position of civil servants. and introduce an entirely different system of government. It is a pity that we cannot have a full debate on that this evening. We have only five minutes left and I shall Angela E. Smith: I am grateful to hon. Members for curtail my remarks so that others will have an opportunity keeping their comments short so that I have time to to speak, but I would have liked a full debate on that respond. First, on the points made by my hon. Friend very issue. The fact that I cannot demonstrates that the Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins), I have what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for every sympathy with what he is trying to achieve but Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said when we debated the think that his amendments achieve the opposite, as they 821 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 822 Governance Bill Governance Bill [Angela E. Smith] Clause 18 blur the line. The term “special advisers” is understood. DEFINITIONS ETC I take the same view as the hon. Member for Epping Amendment made: 40, page 9, line 38, leave out ‘8(3)’ Forest (Mrs. Laing); it is a noble profession that allows and insert ‘8(4)’.—(Mary Creagh.) political support and advice to be given to Ministers while maintaining the integrity and impartiality of civil Clause 18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the servants. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Bill. Luton, North will withdraw his amendment. I have Clause 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill. every sympathy with his intention, but I do not think Schedule 2 agreed to. that his amendments will achieve what he wants. Clause 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill. In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), may I say that I think that there is a lot of force to his point about the need for us to be clear New Clause 9 about what special advisers can and cannot do? He has already mentioned the debate that has been had and it is CROWN EMPLOYMENT: REMOVAL OF EXISTING widely agreed that Ministers need advice and assistance. NATIONALITY REQUIREMENTS That is an important role to fulfil, and the first act of ‘(1) Section 3 of the Act of Settlement (which, subject to the Prime Minister in 2007 was to remove the position— exceptions, prevents persons born outside the United Kingdom from holding certain offices) does not prevent any person from 10 pm being employed or holding office in a civil capacity under the Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day). Crown. The Chairman put forthwith the Question already proposed (2) In the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act 1919 (c. 92), from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the omit section 6 (which, subject to exceptions, prevents the amendment be made. appointment of aliens to posts in the Civil Service).’.— Amendment 79 negatived. (Mark Tami.) The Chairman then put forthwith the Questions necessary Brought up, and added to the Bill. for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83D). New Clause 10 Amendment made: 36, page 4, line 35, leave out subsections (2) to (7) and insert— CROWN EMPLOYMENT: POWERTOIMPOSENEW ‘(2) For this purpose, the Minister may publish separate codes NATIONALITY REQUIREMENTS of conduct covering special advisers who serve the Scottish ‘(1) Rules may be made imposing requirements as to nationality Executive or the Welsh Assembly Government. which must be satisfied by a person employed or holding office in (3) Before publishing a code (or any revision of a code) under a civil capacity under the Crown in a reserved post. subsection (2), the Minister must consult the First Minister for (2) A post is a reserved post if— Scotland or the First Minister for Wales (as the case may be). (a) it is a post in any of the security and intelligence (4) In this Chapter “special advisers code” means a code of services, or conduct published under this section as it is in force for the time (b) it is within subsection (3) or (4), and a Minister of the being. Crown has determined that it is necessary for requirements (5) The Minister for the Civil Service must lay any special as to nationality to be satisfied in relation to the post. advisers code before Parliament. (3) The posts within this subsection are— (6) The First Minister for Scotland must lay before the Scottish (a) posts in Her Majesty’s Diplomatic Service and posts in Parliament any special advisers code under subsection (2) that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and covers special advisers who serve the Scottish Executive. (b) posts in the Defence Intelligence Staff. (7) The First Minister for Wales must lay before the National (4) The posts within this subsection are posts whose functions Assembly for Wales any special advisers code under subsection (2) are concerned with— that covers special advisers who serve the Welsh Assembly Government. (a) access to intelligence information received directly or indirectly from any of the security and intelligence (8) A special advisers code forms part of the terms and services, conditions of service of any special adviser covered by the (b) access to other information which, if disclosed without code.’.—(Mary Creagh.) authority or otherwise misused, might damage the Clause 8, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. interests of national security, Clauses 9 to 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill. (c) access to other information which, if disclosed without authority or otherwise misused, might be prejudicial Clause 15 to the interests of the United Kingdom or the safety of its citizens, or DEFINITION OF “SPECIAL ADVISER” (d) border control or decisions about immigration. Amendments made: 37, page 8, line 7, leave out ‘8(7)’ (5) A determination under subsection (2)(b) may relate to a and insert ‘8(8)’. particular post or posts, or to posts falling within a description 38, page 8, line 22, leave out ‘8(7)’ and insert ‘8(8)’. specified in the determination. 39, page 8, line 35, leave out ‘8(7)’ and insert ‘8(8)’.— (6) In this section “the security and intelligence services” (Mary Creagh.) means— Clause 15, as amended, ordered to stand part of the (a) the Security Service, Bill. (b) the Secret Intelligence Service, and Clauses 16 and 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill. (c) the Government Communications Headquarters. 823 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 824 Governance Bill Governance Bill (7) The rules may also— New Clause 33 (a) impose requirements as to nationality which must be satisfied in the case of persons connected with a CIVIL SERVICE ANNUAL REPORT person who must satisfy requirements imposed under ‘(1) The Minister for the Civil Service must publish and lay subsection (1), and before Parliament an annual report on the functioning of the (b) provide that any requirement imposed under paragraph civil service of the state. (a) may be treated as satisfied if a connected person (2) The Minister for the Civil Service may publish separate has or had substantial ties with the United Kingdom. reports covering civil servants who serve the Scottish Executive (8) For the purposes of this section the following are or the Welsh Assembly. Before publishing these separate reports connected with a person— the Minister must consult the First Minister for Scotland or the (a) any parent or deceased parent of the person, First Minister for Wales (as the case may be). (3) Such a report must include but is not limited to— (b) any spouse or civil partner of the person, (a) details on the numbers of civil servants by each (c) any person living together with the person as if they government department and agency; were spouses or civil partners, or (b) the costs of civil servants by each government (d) any parent of a person within paragraph (b) or (c). department and agency; (9) The rules are to be made by a Minister of the Crown. (c) a comprehensive definition of the civil service of the (10) The rules may include provision— state for that year. (4) The First Minister for Scotland must lay before the (a) exempting persons of a description specified in the Scottish Parliament any report under subsection (2) that covers rules (and persons connected with them) who were civil servants that serve the Scottish Executive. first employed, or first held office, in the post in question before a specified date, and (5) The First Minister for Wales must lay before the National Assembly for Wales any report under subsection (2) that covers (b) allowing the granting of exemptions by the appropriate civil servants that serve the Welsh Assembly Government.’.— person. (Mr. Maude.) (11) In subsection (10)(b) “the appropriate person” means— Brought up. (a) in the case of posts in the Security Service, the Director- Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. General of the Security Service or a person nominated by the Director-General of the Security Service, The House divided: Ayes 187, Noes 295. (b) in the case of posts in the Secret Intelligence Service, Division No. 237] [10.4 pm the Chief of the Secret Intelligence Service or a person nominated by the Chief of the Secret Intelligence AYES Service, Afriyie, Adam Davis, rh David (c) in the case of posts in the Government Communications Headquarters, the Director of the Government Amess, Mr. David Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Communications Headquarters or a person nominated Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Dodds, Mr. Nigel by the Director of the Government Communications Atkinson, Mr. Peter Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Headquarters, and Barker, Gregory Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Baron, Mr. John Dunne, Mr. Philip (d) otherwise, a Minister of the Crown. Barrett, John Ellwood, Mr. Tobias (12) The references in— Beith, rh Sir Alan Evennett, Mr. David (a) section 75(5)(b) of the Race Relations Act 1976 (c. 74) Bellingham, Mr. Henry Fabricant, Michael (rules relating to nationality etc. of persons employed Benyon, Mr. Richard Fallon, Mr. Michael in service of Crown), and Beresford, Sir Paul Farron, Tim (b) Article 71(5)(b) of the Race Relations (Northern Ireland) Binley, Mr. Brian Featherstone, Lynne Order 1997 (S.I. 1997/869 (N.I. 6)) (corresponding Blunt, Mr. Crispin Field, Mr. Mark provision for Northern Ireland), Bone, Mr. Peter Foster, Mr. Don Boswell, Mr. Tim Francois, Mr. Mark to the implementation of rules include the grant of (or refusal Bottomley, Peter Fraser, Christopher to grant) exemptions under subsection (10)(b). Brazier, Mr. Julian Gale, Mr. Roger (13) The power of a Minister of the Crown to make rules Breed, Mr. Colin Gauke, Mr. David under this section is exercisable by statutory instrument. Brokenshire, James George, Andrew (14) A statutory instrument containing rules under this section Brooke, Annette Gibb, Mr. Nick is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either Browne, Mr. Jeremy Goodman, Mr. Paul House of Parliament. Browning, Angela Goodwill, Mr. Robert Burns, Mr. Simon Gray, Mr. James (15) Nothing in this section limits any power to impose a Burrowes, Mr. David Green, Damian requirement which is not a requirement as to nationality even if the ability of a person to satisfy the requirement may be affected Burt, Alistair Greening, Justine by the nationality of the person or any other person.’.— Burt, Lorely Greenway, Mr. John (Mark Tami.) Butterfill, Sir John Grieve, Mr. Dominic Campbell, Mr. Gregory Gummer, rh Mr. John Brought up, and added to the Bill. Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hague, rh Mr. William Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hammond, Mr. Philip Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hammond, Stephen New Clause 11 Clappison, Mr. James Hands, Mr. Greg Clark, Greg Harper, Mr. Mark Crabb, Mr. Stephen Harris, Dr. Evan CROWN EMPLOYMENT: REPEALS AND REVOCATIONS Davies, Mr. Dai Harvey, Nick ‘The Schedule [Crown employment: repeals and revocations] Davies, David T.C. Hayes, Mr. John has effect.’.—(Mark Tami.) (Monmouth) Heald, Mr. Oliver Brought up, and added to the Bill. Davies, Philip Heath, Mr. David 825 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 826 Governance Bill Governance Bill Heathcoat-Amory, rh Pickles, Mr. Eric Blizzard, Mr. Bob Foster, Michael Jabez Mr. David Prisk, Mr. Mark Blunkett, rh Mr. David (Hastings and Rye) Hemming, John Pritchard, Mark Borrow, Mr. David S. Francis, Dr. Hywel Herbert, Nick Pugh, Dr. John Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Gapes, Mike Hermon, Lady Randall, Mr. John Brennan, Kevin George, rh Mr. Bruce Hoban, Mr. Mark Redwood, rh Mr. John Brown, Lyn Gerrard, Mr. Neil Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Rennie, Willie Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gilroy, Linda Horam, Mr. John Robathan, Mr. Andrew Brown, Mr. Russell Goggins, rh Paul Horwood, Martin Robertson, Hugh Browne, rh Des Goodman, Helen Howarth, David Robertson, Mr. Laurence Bryant, Chris Griffith, Nia Howarth, Mr. Gerald Robinson, Mrs. Iris Buck, Ms Karen Griffiths, Nigel Howell, John Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Burden, Richard Grogan, Mr. John Huhne, Chris Rowen, Paul Butler, Ms Dawn Gwynne, Andrew Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Ruffley, Mr. David Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hain, rh Mr. Peter Hunter, Mark Russell, Bob Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hall, Mr. Mike Jack, rh Mr. Michael Sanders, Mr. Adrian Cairns, David Hall, Patrick Jackson, Mr. Stewart Scott, Mr. Lee Campbell, Mr. Alan Hamilton, Mr. David Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Selous, Andrew Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Kawczynski, Daniel Shapps, Grant Caton, Mr. Martin Hanson, rh Mr. David Keetch, Mr. Paul Shepherd, Mr. Richard Cawsey, Mr. Ian Harman, rh Ms Harriet Key, Robert Simmonds, Mark Challen, Colin Havard, Mr. Dai Kirkbride, Miss Julie Simpson, Mr. Keith Chapman, Ben Healey, rh John Knight, rh Mr. Greg Smith, Chloe Chaytor, Mr. David Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Kramer, Susan Soames, Mr. Nicholas Clapham, Mr. Michael Heppell, Mr. John Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Clark, Ms Katy Hesford, Stephen Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Steen, Mr. Anthony Clark, Paul Heyes, David Lamb, Norman Streeter, Mr. Gary Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hill, rh Keith Laws, Mr. David Stuart, Mr. Graham Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hodge, rh Margaret Leech, Mr. John Swayne, Mr. Desmond Clelland, Mr. David Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Lewis, Dr. Julian Syms, Mr. Robert Clwyd, rh Ann Hoey, Kate Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Taylor, Dr. Richard Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hood, Mr. Jim Cook, Frank Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Lidington, Mr. David Timpson, Mr. Edward Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Cooper, Rosie Hope, Phil Turner, Mr. Andrew Luff, Peter Cooper, rh Yvette Hopkins, Kelvin Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Corbyn, Jeremy Hosie, Stewart Vaizey, Mr. Edward Malins, Mr. Humfrey Cousins, Jim Howarth, rh Mr. George Vara, Mr. Shailesh Maples, Mr. John Crausby, Mr. David Howells, rh Dr. Kim Maude, rh Mr. Francis Viggers, Sir Peter Creagh, Mary Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay May, rh Mrs. Theresa Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cruddas, Jon Humble, Mrs. Joan McCrea, Dr. William Walker, Mr. Charles Cryer, Mrs. Ann Iddon, Dr. Brian McIntosh, Miss Anne Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cummings, John Illsley, Mr. Eric McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Watkinson, Angela Cunningham, Mr. Jim Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Mercer, Patrick Webb, Steve Cunningham, Tony Irranca-Davies, Huw Miller, Mrs. Maria Whittingdale, Mr. John Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire James, Mrs. Siân C. Moss, Mr. Malcolm Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann David, Mr. Wayne Jenkins, Mr. Brian Mulholland, Greg Wiggin, Bill Davidson, Mr. Ian Johnson, rh Alan Mundell, David Williams, Mr. Roger Davies, Mr. Quentin Johnson, Ms Diana R. Murrison, Dr. Andrew Williams, Stephen Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Helen Neill, Robert Willott, Jenny Denham, rh Mr. John Jones, Mr. Kevan Newmark, Mr. Brooks Wilson, Mr. Rob Dismore, Mr. Andrew Jones, Lynne Oaten, Mr. Mark Wilson, Sammy Dobbin, Jim Jones, Mr. Martyn Öpik, Lembit Winterton, Ann Dobson, rh Frank Jowell, rh Tessa Doran, Mr. Frank Joyce, Mr. Eric Osborne, Mr. George Winterton, Sir Nicholas Ottaway, Richard Drew, Mr. David Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Young, rh Sir George Paice, Mr. James Durkan, Mark Keeble, Ms Sally Younger-Ross, Richard Paterson, Mr. Owen Eagle, Angela Keeley, Barbara Pelling, Mr. Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Eagle, Maria Keen, Alan Penning, Mike James Duddridge and Efford, Clive Keen, Ann Penrose, John Jeremy Wright Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kelly, rh Ruth Engel, Natascha Kemp, Mr. Fraser NOES Ennis, Jeff Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Etherington, Bill Kidney, Mr. David Abbott, Ms Diane Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Farrelly, Paul Knight, rh Jim Ainger, Nick Beckett, rh Margaret Field, rh Mr. Frank Kumar, Dr. Ashok Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Begg, Miss Anne Fisher, Mark Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Allen, Mr. Graham Benn, rh Hilary Fitzpatrick, Jim Lammy, rh Mr. David Atkins, Charlotte Benton, Mr. Joe Flello, Mr. Robert Laxton, Mr. Bob Austin, Mr. Ian Berry, Roger Flint, rh Caroline Lazarowicz, Mark Bailey, Mr. Adrian Betts, Mr. Clive Flynn, Paul Lepper, David Balls, rh Ed Blackman, Liz Follett, Barbara Levitt, Tom Banks, Gordon Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Foster, Mr. Michael Linton, Martin Barlow, Ms Celia Blears, rh Hazel (Worcester) Lloyd, Tony 827 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Constitutional Reform and 828 Governance Bill Governance Bill Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Ruddock, Joan New Schedule 1 Love, Mr. Andrew Ryan, rh Joan ‘CROWN EMPLOYMENT: REPEALS AND REVOCATIONS Lucas, Ian Salter, Martin Mackinlay, Andrew Seabeck, Alison Title and reference Extent of repeal or revocation MacNeil, Mr. Angus Shaw, Jonathan Aliens Restriction Section 6. Mactaggart, Fiona Sheerman, Mr. Barry (Amendment) Act 1919 (c.92) Malik, Mr. Shahid Sheridan, Jim Aliens’ Employment Act 1955 The whole Act. Mallaber, Judy Simon, Mr. Siôn (4 & 5 Eliz. 2 c. 18) Mann, John Simpson, Alan Marris, Rob Skinner, Mr. Dennis European Communities The whole Order. Marsden, Mr. Gordon Slaughter, Mr. Andy (Employment in the Civil Service) Order 1991 Martlew, Mr. Eric Smith, rh Mr. Andrew (S.I. 1991/1221) McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, Ms Angela C. McCafferty, Chris (Sheffield, Hillsborough) European Communities The whole Order.’. McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) (Employment in the Civil McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Geraldine Service) Order 2007 (S.I. 2007/617) McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, rh Jacqui McDonagh, Siobhain Snelgrove, Anne —(Mark Tami.) McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Soulsby, Sir Peter McDonnell, John Southworth, Helen Brought up, and added to the Bill. McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Spellar, rh Mr. John The Chairman left the Chair to report progress and ask McFall, rh John Starkey, Dr. Phyllis leave to sit again (Programme Order, this day.) McGovern, Mr. Jim Stewart, Ian The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. McGrady, Mr. Eddie Stoate, Dr. Howard McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Straw, rh Mr. Jack Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. McIsaac, Shona Stringer, Graham McKenna, Rosemary Stuart, Ms Gisela DELEGATED LEGISLATION McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Tami, Mark Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With the Meale, Mr. Alan Taylor, Ms Dari leave of the House, we shall take motions 4, 5 and Merron, Gillian Taylor, David 6 together. Michael, rh Alun Thomas, Mr. Gareth Miliband, rh Edward Thornberry, Emily Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Miller, Andrew Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Order 118(6)), Mitchell, Mr. Austin Tipping, Paddy Moffatt, Laura Todd, Mr. Mark REGULATORY REFORM Mole, Chris Touhig, rh Mr. Don That the draft Legislative and Regulatory Reform (Regulatory Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Functions) (Amendment) Order 2009, which was laid before this Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Truswell, Mr. Paul House on 20 July, be approved. Mullin, Mr. Chris Turner, Dr. Desmond Munn, Meg Turner, Mr. Neil VALUE ADDED TAX Murphy, Mr. Denis Twigg, Derek That the Value Added Tax (Buildings and Land) Order 2009 Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Ussher, Kitty (S.I., 2009, No. 1966), dated 21 July 2009, which was laid before Naysmith, Dr. Doug Walley, Joan this House on 21 July, be approved. Norris, Dan Waltho, Lynda O’Hara, Mr. Edward Ward, Claire DANGEROUS DRUGS Olner, Mr. Bill Watson, Mr. Tom That the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Osborne, Sandra Watts, Mr. Dave Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 19 October, be Owen, Albert Whitehead, Dr. Alan approved. —(Mark Tami.) Palmer, Dr. Nick Wicks, rh Malcolm Question agreed to. Pearson, Ian Williams, rh Mr. Alan Plaskitt, Mr. James Williams, Mrs. Betty Pope, Mr. Greg Williams, Hywel EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Pound, Stephen Wills, rh Mr. Michael Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Prentice, Mr. Gordon Wilson, Phil Order No. 119(11)), Primarolo, rh Dawn Winnick, Mr. David Prosser, Gwyn Winterton, rh Ms Rosie COMMON FISHERIES POLICY REFORM Purchase, Mr. Ken Wishart, Pete That this House takes note of European Union Document Purnell, rh James Wood, Mike No. 8977/09, Commission Communication on the Green Paper— Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Reform of the Common Fisheries Policy; and supports the Reed, Mr. Andy Woolas, Mr. Phil Government in working with the European Commission to improve Reed, Mr. Jamie Wright, Mr. Anthony the governance framework of the Common Fisheries Policy, Reid, rh John Wright, David thereby contributing to the delivery and maintenance of sustainable Riordan, Mrs. Linda Wright, Mr. Iain fisheries.—(Mark Tami.) Robertson, Angus Wright, Dr. Tony Question agreed to. Robertson, John Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Tellers for the Noes: Roy, Lindsay Steve McCabe and REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE Ruane, Chris Mr. George Mudie (WEST MIDLANDS) Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (2 November), Question accordingly negatived. That Mr David Kidney be discharged from the West Midlands Regional Select Committee and Mrs Janet Dean be added. 829 Constitutional Reform and 3 NOVEMBER 2009 830 Governance Bill Hon. Members: Object. PCSOs (Somerset) Debate to be resumed tomorrow. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mark Tami.) REGIONAL SELECT COMMITTEE (SOUTH WEST) 10.20 pm Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (29 October), Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD): Before I get on That Linda Gilroy be discharged from the South West Regional to the main substance of the debate, this is a fitting Select Committee and Roger Berry be added. opportunity to pay tribute to a police officer, Sandy Padgett, who died only last month. She was a thoughtful, Hon. Members: Object. intelligent police officer who was the senior officer Debate to be resumed tomorrow. responsible for the half of Somerset within which my constituency lies, covering Taunton Deane, Sedgemoor and west Somerset. She died very unexpectedly at the tragically young age of 41, and her loss is still mourned and noticed not just by police officers but by people in all walks of life in my constituency and across Somerset. The context of the debate is a decision by the Conservative-controlled executive at Somerset county council to reduce the budget for police community support officers, with effect from April 2010, by £129,000. Before I get into the details of precisely what arrangements are planned and why I feel so strongly that we should resist the budget cuts, I shall paint a background picture of why this is a matter of wider concern for people living right across Somerset. Like people everywhere else in the country, my constituents are affected by violent serious crime, but it is fair to say that that is not the typical everyday experience of most people in most communities in Somerset. What causes a great deal of anxiety for those people is more routine—some people would describe it as lower-level—crime and antisocial behaviour, which often blights their lives. It is things such as graffiti, litter and late-night noise that make people feel that their quality of life is compromised. That public concern is real, and it is the responsibility of all interested parties— political parties, the police, local councils and others—to address the anxieties that my constituents and those of other Somerset Members feel. Various councils and interest groups have put in place good arrangements to try to address those anxieties about lower-level crime and antisocial behaviour. Even before I was elected there was a good scheme of wardens in a large village in my constituency called Bishops Lydeard. They had a distinctive uniform and were visible out on patrol in their community. Other similar schemes operated throughout Somerset and throughout the country, a lot of them under the auspices of local authorities rather than the police. The decision was taken, on balance rightly, to bring all those disparate groups and different efforts to address public concern under one umbrella and make them part of the overall police family. That was the genesis of the idea of PCSOs. Last Friday I spent, as I have many times in the past, a half day out on patrol with the police in certain areas of Taunton—Holway, Halcon, the Lane estate, Priorswood and Lyngford. In all those areas, I was particularly interested to observe how well police neighbourhood teams are working in their communities. They have been a success in many parts of the country. People often say to me, “Well, I’m not sure about community support officers, because I’d like to see more real fully-fledged police”. Everyone would recognise—it is a statement of fact—that there are more police officers than there were 10 years ago, and I do 831 PCSOs (Somerset)3 NOVEMBER 2009 PCSOs (Somerset) 832 not want PCSOs to replace the regular police officers or I remember once going on patrol with the Taunton be a substitute for them. However, they can play a town centre PCSOs. A child was lost, having turned complementary role as part of neighbourhood teams. round to find its parents gone during a shopping trip. That is what I have observed in Taunton and elsewhere: Understandably, the parents were panicking. PCSOs, police have worked closely in conjunction with PCSOs through their radio links and co-ordination with the and the different roles have made them a more effective CCTV operators, were able to locate the child and and responsive force as a consequence. reunite child and parents. No criminal act had been committed. Some people would want the police out and Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I about catching criminals, not performing that type of congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. As function, and PCSOs are ideally suited to that such a former chairman of the Avon and Somerset police work. authority, I am delighted that we have had more police To summarise, people value the visibility of PCSOs officers in Avon and Somerset recently, although I must and like them as part of a neighbourhood team with the say that that is now in decline: we are losing officers, regular police; and the police can have greater flexibility and have fewer now than we had a year or two ago. and perform more of a community role as a result of However, PCSOs are playing an essential role in supporting PCSOs working in concert with them. But because of our police officers. They not only provide a uniform the historic funding legacy—the PCSOs were brought presence in many of our villages, but in towns such as in under the police umbrella but were not originally Frome, they make a very strong bond with local young part of the police family—it has been recognised for people, and work in a way that is simply not possible some time that councils and others contribute to their with modern policing. PCSOs nevertheless provide a funding. An agreement was made in 2008 between complementary service, exactly as my hon. Friend says. Somerset county council, Sedgemoor district council and Taunton Deane borough council to make a Mr. Browne: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. contribution to the funding of PCSOs in partnership Perhaps I can break down the role of PCSOs as part of with Avon and Somerset police. Sedgemoor and Taunton the neighbourhood teams into three categories. The Deane have much smaller budgets so their contributions first role is visibility. How many times have we heard—not were relatively modest, at between £20,000 and £30,000 only in towns, but in small villages and more remote annually. However, Somerset county council agreed an populated areas—how much people value having a annual contribution of £418,000, a substantial sum. visible police presence on the street? People often complain Between them, the councils were funding an additional that they do not see the police, or that the police do not 17 PCSOs to work with local communities across Somerset. properly engage with them, so the uniformed presence At the time of the agreement, the spokesperson for of PCSOs is valued by a great number of people. Somerset county council said: Secondly, PCSOs can play a role in ensuring that the “These three Councils have funded PCSO’s because they recognise function of the police reaches down to community the improvements to community safety which can be achieved by level—for example, by holding regular advice surgeries PCSO’s working at a local level.” in community centres, or by visiting victims of crime or That is precisely the type of activity that I have mentioned, people who have made complaints about the level of and the council cited others, including making our police activity in their area and talking to them about communities feel safer and reducing antisocial behaviour; their concerns. They might go and see older people and reducing crime; limiting the damage caused by alcohol advise them about home security, or visit primary or to our communities; preventing young people from secondary schools to talk to children about crime and entering the criminal justice system; safeguarding vulnerable police-related matters. people; and improving safety on Somerset roads. So the Outside the Asda store in Taunton there is what they undertaking was given by Somerset county council and call a police pod. The public can drop in to that and do others to maintain funding to achieve those objectives. not have to go to the length of visiting the main police It is in that context that I was genuinely shocked to station. There they can get some advice on security— discover that the new administration at Somerset county making their house, car or bike safer—or report a crime council had decided to make a cut of £129,000 in the to the police or the PCSOs. In all those different ways, budget for PCSOs from April 2010. That is a cut in the PCSOs, precisely because they are not engaged in dealing existing budget contribution of almost a third— with criminals in the same way as police officers are, can spend more of their time out on the street, in the Mr. David Laws (Yeovil) (LD): I congratulate my community, visible, at the same time as having those hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He will regular community functions. know that the Conservatives in Somerset have been The third role of PCSOs is something that often alleging that the plan to reduce PCSOs is only a plan, surprises people, because it sounds slightly counter-intuitive. but is he aware that the papers that went to the council’s Quite a lot of police time is spent on activity that is not cabinet this week talk of the reduction in PCSO support to do with combating criminal activity. For example, essentially as a done deal, and already take it into the police might be asked to help divert traffic following account in plans for the future? Is that not a concern? a road accident, but PCSOs are perfectly capable of performing that task, ensuring that more regular police Mr. Browne: It is very much a concern for me. I would officers are not taken away from other tasks. Somerset not want anyone to think that this claim had been MPs know that at this time of year carnivals are very invented by me or other Liberal Democrats. As my hon. popular, and PCSOs have a role in ensuring that public Friend rightly says, it is a concrete plan put forward by safety is maintained when thousands of people come on the Conservative administration of Somerset county to the streets to enjoy such community events. council. Further confirmation is provided by the fact 833 PCSOs (Somerset)3 NOVEMBER 2009 PCSOs (Somerset) 834

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] That is the type of feedback that I have been getting from people who are extremely concerned about the that, in an expensive local newspaper advertisement, the budget cuts proposed by the county council. prospective Conservative parliamentary candidate for I understand that all local authorities, and indeed Taunton Deane said that he supported me in opposing central Government, face difficult budgetary issues. We the cuts being proposed by the Conservatives on Somerset are in a situation in which decisions will have to be county council. That appears to offer complete confirmation made, and sometimes those decisions will not be popular. that those cuts are in no way fictitious. If they were, he However, we must remember that the county council would not need to support my campaign against his has just spent almost £50,000 on advertising to recruit colleagues at county hall. a new chief executive. That, for me, represents an We had county council elections in June this year, so extraordinary priority, given that the budget for PCSOs they were only a matter of months ago. People might is being cut. If the Conservatives in the council had have been entitled to expect that if there was a plan to decided that they would rather have a lower budget, cut the county council contribution to this important they would, as I said, have been well-advised to put that police community support work by almost a third, it proposal forward at the elections a few months ago. would have been one of the issues that we discussed, in In conclusion, my desire is to support the neighbourhood a grown-up and sensible way, at that election. The policing teams. They work extremely well and ensure Conservatives could have said, “Here’s our plan to slash that the police continue to have a high level of visibility the budget for PCSOs,” and we could have had a debate in communities across Somerset. Those teams of regular about whether that was a good plan. The Conservatives police officers and PCSOs work in concert. It is my clearly thought that people in Somerset would not be view—I hope that it is the Minister’s as well—that a cut keen on the idea, which is why it was kept secret during of £129,000 in the annual Somerset county council the election campaign. contribution to Avon and Somerset police to fund There has been no meaningful consultation. I do not PCSOs would be a backward step. It would make the know whether my hon. Friends the Members for Somerton public’s understandable concerns about crime in Somerset and Frome (Mr. Heath) and for Yeovil (Mr. Laws) have all the more acute. I look forward to hearing his comments, also received letters from Somerset county council asking therefore, and I hope that he will join me and say how for their views on whether that would be an appropriate strongly committed he is to neighbourhood policing. I course of action in the communities that they represent hope, too, that he will give a clear steer that this House in Parliament. However, I am not aware of any meaningful is uneasy about the cuts proposed by the Conservative consultation taking place. administration at Somerset county council. Public opinion, in my view, is strongly against the proposal. I would not claim, of course, that there is 10.38 pm 100 per cent. opposition to what has been suggested by the county council. However, I decided to try a modern The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism form of communication and set up a Facebook group (Mr. David Hanson): I am grateful to the hon. Member to try to oppose the changes. Almost 1,000 people have for Taunton (Mr. Browne) for securing this debate, and signed up to the group in the past few days alone, and a I congratulate him on it. I am also grateful to his hon. few of them have posted comments. Let me give hon. Friends the hon. Members for Yeovil (Mr. Laws) and Members a flavour of them. Phil Hobson said: for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) for supporting him this evening. I also thank the hon. Member for “Our PCSOs do a great job collecting ‘on the street’ intelligence for the police and can talk to young people better than regular Taunton for his kind comments about our police colleague, officers. I know this from personal experience—we always see Sandy Padgett, who, as he mentioned, died recently. His them walking the beat and they have defused several…incidents”— comments will be of comfort to those who knew her that is, antisocial behaviour incidents— and her work in the Somerset area. “as well. Wouldn’t know what to do without them.” I know that the hon. Member for Taunton has taken a keen interest in the matter before us, and I have been Danni Sowden wrote: following the press discussions with interest. He made “our PCSO is very good, helps our village become a nice area and an excellent case for the work of community support stops trouble!” officers not just in Somerset but throughout England Angie Leach said: and Wales, and for the support that they give to police “Well done and good luck. The PCSOs here have proven their officers in dealing with antisocial behaviour, community value to the community over and over again!” policing and ground-level activities that are crucial to confidence in police services throughout Somerset and Helen Gould said: elsewhere. “To cut back on PCSO funding now would be a very unhelpful step back in the fight to provide safer, quieter communities for us The amount of funding that Somerset county council all to live in. It would undermine and undo all the good work gives to support Avon and Somerset police on such these hard-working and conscientious minded individuals have matters is—I hope the hon. Gentleman will recognise—a achieved.” matter for Somerset county council. I cannot be, nor Tony Gore said: would I wish to be, the leader or the executive of Somerset county council; nor can I account for the “Nothing beats ‘presence’ as a deterrent, and in country areas administration that currently runs it. I hope that the any form of policing is better than none.” hon. Gentleman will recognise that the support given to Andy Newland said: PCSOs in Somerset remains a matter for local discretion. “I am a fan of PCSOs on balance they have been good for our Later I will give some views and flavours about those communities”. decisions, but they remain a local matter. 835 PCSOs (Somerset)3 NOVEMBER 2009 PCSOs (Somerset) 836

The key point that has been put across today is that For me personally, match funding and community PCSOs have a vital role to play in neighbourhood buy-in to PCSOs are extremely important. That is why I policing. If I look, as I did only an hour ago, at the have welcomed past commitments made by local authorities figures for the west Somerset basic command unit, in the Avon and Somerset area to support those additional which covers the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, I see community support officers. I think that they represent that there are clear advantages in driving down crime to very good value for money given the activities that they be gained from police and police community support can undertake to prevent crime, build confidence, support officers working together. Indeed, crime in the area that communities and help to reduce crime on the ground. the hon. Gentleman represents has fallen by 6.2 per Partnership in policing is extremely important. If it cent. over the past year, with vehicle crime falling by does not exist, and if crime rises, local authorities such 22.4 per cent. If I may make a plug, Mr. Deputy as those in Somerset will have to suffer the consequences, Speaker, I got those figures from the crime map that we including more social dysfunction and difficulties on launched a couple of weeks ago which shows the position the streets. Those issues would affect the future budget in every area and BCU area. headings of places such as Somerset. As part of the policing pledge, we want such engagement The 11 neighbourhood police beat teams that operate with the community. The hon. Gentleman made a strong in the Taunton constituency, and the PCSOs who support case for the synergy between PCSOs and neighbourhood them, are extremely valuable in helping to drive down policing in driving down crime and increasing confidence. crime and, ultimately, reduce the burden on ratepayers Indeed, confidence in policing has increased, and not as a consequence of that crime downstream. just in Somerset but across England and Wales, from Against that background, I share the hon. Gentleman’s 45 per cent. a year ago to a record 50 per cent. in the last concern that Somerset county council is considering a British crime survey two weeks ago, our target being reduction of some £129,000 in it funding for PCSOs 60 per cent. in the near future. from 1 April 2010. Like him, I have seen the newspapers and heard what colleagues representing other parts of That will have something to do with the record numbers Somerset have said about the fact that this is still a plan of police officers in Somerset and elsewhere—Somerset in progress. That is a matter for the council, as I have now has 3,303 formal police officers, which is 314 more said. I was interested in what the hon. Member for than in 1997—but it will also have a great deal to do Yeovil said about the cabinet papers, but I have to say with the focus of PCSOs, working alongside police that this is a decision for the council. I would, however, officers, on tackling lower-level, but highly visible antisocial be disappointed—as would Avon and Somerset police—if behaviour and other issues of high concern for the that cut took place. community at large. One of the main themes of the policing White Paper that we will bring forward shortly Mr. Heath: A point has just occurred to me, and I will be strengthening and embedding that role further, wonder whether the Minister can help me with it. If, as because it is only through effective partnership work a result of this quite disgraceful decision by Somerset between the police and police community support officers, county council, PCSOs were laid off and made redundant, working alongside councils such as Somerset and Taunton would the cost of those redundancies fall on the police Deane, that we can make a difference on the ground. authority? Would not that reduce yet further our ability Funding is a key issue, but let me give some context. to police Somerset properly? The Home Office is providing some £332 million to police authorities in the current financial year to support Mr. Hanson: My understanding is that it would, neighbourhood policing. That constitutes 70 per cent. because those PCSOs would be employed by the police of the funding for some 16,000 police community support authority rather than the county council. I will check officers nationwide. The Home Office now provides on that, however, and if need be, confirm it or otherwise some £7.16 million of support for Avon and Somerset after the debate. constabulary to ensure provision of 346 PCSOs, who I want to put this matter into context, because it is a are funded this year by that direct grant from this serious issue relating to Somerset county council’s Labour Government. There are 381 PCSOs in Avon contribution. I would be disappointed if it were to and Somerset constabulary overall. The difference between reduce that contribution. I know that the police authority those figures—346 and 381—is because of funding such would also be disappointed. I need to put this into as that provided by Somerset county council and other context, however, because the £129,000 would equate to agencies. Home Office funding increased last year by about 4.5 PCSOs from the present Avon and Somerset 2.7 per cent. and by a similar amount this year. In contingent of 381—346 of whom are funded centrally 2010-11, for the last year of this comprehensive spending by the Home Office. So, while this is an important issue, review, we are committing to ensure that that central I would not wish people in Avon and Somerset to think Government support to fund the large bulk of PCSOs is that the decision would lead to the loss of PCSOs on the in place for the future. ground in Somerset, or indeed in Taunton. The Home Whatever the decisions of Avon and Somerset police Office is committed to that funding and will continue authority or Somerset county council, this Government that funding. We will ensure, as we have done to date, have a commitment to continue supporting PCSOs. The that the 346 are in place for the future. 346 PCSOs who are funded directly by this Government The Avon and Somerset force faces considerable were funded last year, will be funded this year and will challenges to meet its joint police and local authority be funded next year, pending the CSR, which will take public confidence target, which is currently at 46 per place after the general election whatever the outcome. cent., rising to a final target of nearly 60 per cent. by That funding for neighbourhood policing is a central March 2012. The PCSOs will be a considerable factor in part of our partnership approach. achieving that, and they will have a particular role to 837 PCSOs (Somerset)3 NOVEMBER 2009 PCSOs (Somerset) 838

[Mr. Hanson] able to respond in detail. It shows that there is a strong level of support for these issues in Taunton and in the play in that regard. Any reduction in their numbers, rest of Somerset, and I will undoubtedly take a keen outside the Home Office contribution, would be regretted, interest in how the situation unravels in due course, and but I have to emphasise again that that is a matter for in what Somerset county council does to support Avon Somerset county council, and I hope that it will take on and Somerset police in delivering reduced crime and board what has been said in the House this evening. improved confidence. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that the debate will have been of use to him. I know that the hon. Member for Taunton has collected a number of signatures to his petition, and I am extremely Question put and agreed to. impressed by his use of Facebook. My constituents try to impress on me the importance of this modern technology, 10.49 pm and I hope that, at some point, I shall reform and be House adjourned. 179WH 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 180WH

specific to the needs of rural communities. The National Westminster Hall Housing Federation reported in July that residents in rural areas faced the prospect of waiting more than a Tuesday 3 November 2009 lifetime for new affordable homes. The report stated that rural housing waiting lists had hit a record level of 750,000. However, the rate at which new affordable [ROBERT KEY in the Chair] homes are being built means that families in the 10 most challenged local authorities would have to wait an Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) average of 90 years before getting a home, and in one case a staggering 280 years. That figure, of course, is Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting academic, but it is none the less depressing. be now adjourned.—(Kerry McCarthy.) For people like me who live in and have the privilege of representing part of rural Britain, it is clear that 9.30 am Government policy largely fails to address its specific Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): It is a needs and challenges. Hon. Members will, I am sure, be pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Key. I familiar with the Rural Coalition, which represents am extremely grateful for the opportunity to debate non-partisan groups such as the Campaign to Protect affordable housing in rural areas. I shall start on a Rural England and the Country Land and Business controversial note, and say that I am happy to take on Association. The Rural Coalition states: any Member, here or not, in defence of my assertion “For 50 years or more, policy has undervalued the countryside that Westmorland and Lonsdale is the most attractive and failed to meet the needs of rural communities...the result is constituency in the country. starkly apparent. Rural communities have slowly but relentlessly become less and less sustainable and less and less self-sufficient.” It is my privilege to represent a vast part of the Lake district, large parts of the Yorkshire dales, and vast I agree with that statement. As the Rural Coalition says, swathes of south Cumbria that are so attractive that that is not just the result of the present Government’s they could not find a national park for them. I am a failure; it is a failure of government across the board fourth-rate fell runner in those lands, and my normal over half a century. It falls to us to reverse that. running route takes me to the top of Heversham head. I return to South Lakeland’s housing waiting list, At that vantage point, I often stop to compose myself which is 4,000 strong. Where do 4,000 families go while and take in the view. From there I can see nearly all of waiting for affordable homes? Well, they live in often my patch. It is stunning. One can completely understand overcrowded and inappropriate private rented why people who have plenty of brass should choose to accommodation. I was recently in Kendal knocking on join us and move to the area. We are delighted that doors and I came across a household of eight people—three people should choose to move to our area, to work or to families—squeezed into a two-and-a-half bedroom house. retire, but I put in a bid for today’s debate because of We have a hostel in Kendal that is clean and well run. It my concern for those who have to move away. They go was built to provide temporary accommodation for not out of choice but because they have no choice, and young single people. Today, it is crammed to the gills they leave communities much the poorer for their departure. with families, who are there indefinitely.It is heartbreaking. The average wage in South Lakeland, the district in Many of those 4,000 families simply disappear, especially which my constituency is based, is £19,000 a year. The the young ones, and the community loses its lifeblood average house price is just over £250,000. Responsible as a result. What is more, the housing waiting list is just lenders give mortgages of up to three and a half times the tip of the iceberg; countless more families never annual salary, but the average house price is 13 times the apply to get on the list because they do not see the average wage. The average family is stuffed—I apologise, point. As a result of the affordable housing crisis, we in Mr. Key, if that is an unparliamentary word—when it south Cumbria lose 30 per cent. of our young people comes to buying a home. each year, and they do not come back. The average age South Lakeland district council has 4,000 council in Britain is 39, but in South Lakeland it is 50. That properties and an extra 1,500 housing association homes evidence shows that the community is losing its youth to call upon. There is a waiting list with 4,000 names on because it cannot house it. it; it is growing all the time as a result of repossessions The social rented option is the quickest and most and the ever-widening gap between incomes and house reliable way of providing affordable homes, but it is not prices. At that rate, most people on the list will never the only way. The council in South Lakeland has led the find a social rented property. I said that there were 4,000 way by enabling the building of shared ownership and council homes; once upon a time we had 13,000 in the shared equity properties, and other affordable homes South Lakeland area, but some clever so-and-so decided for purchase. However, as the recession bites, the very to sell them off without replacement. Council houses people for whom those homes were built are being built for local families are now on the market for as excluded. much as £400,000. It is depressing, dare I say it, that we The village of Holme in my constituency recently are 12 and a half years into—and very likely six months gained a new development, yet several of the affordable from the end of—a Labour Government, but have seen homes built there stand empty because the banks, including no action to undo the outrageous ideological assault those that the taxpayer now owns, refuse to give mortgages made on rural communities by the last Conservative on properties with an affordability restriction on them. Government. Those banks that will do so demand a minimum 30 per The lack of affordable housing exists nationwide, in cent. deposit. If people could afford a 30 per cent. urban as well as in rural areas, but the problems that deposit, they would not be in the market for an affordable affect rural Britain are acute, and they require action home. My first request is this: will the Minister agree to 181WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 182WH

[Tim Farron] low level that all of them were lost. It is now three years since Satterthwaite lost its primary school. The tragic ask the Chancellor to instruct the taxpayer-owned banks irony is that the old school is being converted into seven to lend responsibly, to ensure that people seeking to buy affordable homes. If there had been seven affordable affordable homes are given the same mortgage deal as homes three years ago, the school would never have any other buyer? closed. I juxtapose the 4,000 families on the waiting list with Given the damage that excessive second home ownership the 6,000 or 7,000 properties in my constituency that lie does in rural communities, through lost services and empty for most of the year. I am talking, of course, inflated house prices, will the Minister consider allowing about the real problem of excessive second home ownership local authorities to end the council tax subsidy that we in rural areas. I am not talking about holiday lets that pay to second home owners, and consider allowing add real value to the local tourism economy, but about them to set a higher council tax level for those with properties that just lie empty for most of the year. I was second homes in areas where second home ownership in Chapel Stile in the Langdale valley the other day. The has become excessive and detrimental? Will she then last time that a property in that village was bought by allow those local authorities to plough that money into someone who actually chose to live there was 20 years the creation of affordable homes for local people? My ago. Every property bought since the 1980s was purchased local authority has made an excellent start in that area. as an investment, or a bolt hole. Meanwhile, local Members will know that second home owners automatically families look on in despair. Where are they meant to go? get a 50 per cent. discount on their council tax, but In Coniston, 50 per cent. of properties are second councils now have the power to reduce that discount to homes. In Dent, the figure is 50 per cent., and in 10 per cent. I should say something positive here: I Troutbeck it is about 60 per cent. In the Langdales it is congratulate the Government on introducing that power around 70 per cent. some years ago. In South Lakeland, the council has used the additional Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Does my hon. funds that that extra 40 per cent. has brought in to Friend accept that the knock-on effect is that such provide grants of up to £30,000 a time to encourage communities—I empathise with them; my constituency farmers and housing associations to get together and has similar problems—become seasonal service providers? convert disused and underused farm buildings into As a result, the banks shut, the post offices shut and affordable homes. The council has also varied its planning many stores and other shops shut, which means a worse policy to allow such conversions to take place. With quality of life for those who are able to stay in those Government support, that scheme, which we call “Home communities. on the Farm”, could allow hundreds of families to be Tim Farron: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I housed affordably in rural areas, and would breathe shall refer to the problem in a moment. Many of the new life into rural communities. Will the Minister agree rural communities that I represent—like those represented to back the scheme, so that we can build thousands of by my hon. Friend—are seasonal communities when it affordable homes across rural Britain, in the backyards comes to the provision of services. Many permanent of people who actively want them there? residents are older and disconnected from services. In On top of the issue of excessive second home ownership, one village—I shall not name it today—the closure of there is the additional problem of properties that are the post office, which was the last all-year-round service used not rarely, but never. Those empty properties in that community, effectively meant that half a dozen should be brought back into use. Will the Minister older individuals whom I can think of ceased to be able strengthen the powers of councils across the country, to live independently. They then needed a care package, and provide them with the resources forcibly to bring and have had to move out of the village over the past those houses into use as affordable homes for rent? year or two, because there is no longer the infrastructure In Haverthwaite, 20 homes on a newly developed site needed to look after them throughout the year. The cost are lying empty because the firm of developers collapsed. of that to the taxpayer—unseen, of course—is much We should have the power and the resources to bring greater than the cost of ensuring that proper services such properties into public use at once. Will the Minister remain available. allow South Lakeland district council to do so? Over It is an outrageous tragedy that local families should the past four years, South Lakeland has put an end to be forced out of the community in which they grew up the annual net loss of social rented properties by building simply because the two-up, two-down cottage in the new affordable homes. It was a great honour to cut the village is sold for an inflated price to a Mancunian ribbon around the five new housing association homes barrister, a London banker or, as happened on one in Hawkshead. South Lakeland council has already met recent occasion, a Government Minister. It is not that I its housing target for 2012 and is now going on to meet have anything against such people, but when someone’s the needs of some of the 4,000 people who are still right to a second home compromises someone else’s waiting to be housed. However, most of those developments right to buy a first, I know on whose side I am. have happened despite Government policy, and not As my hon. Friend mentioned, the impact of excessive because of it. As many hon. Members will know, we are second home ownership on the community as a whole is forced to go through the processes of the Government’s immense. Every community can absorb a few second dictatorial and counter-productive regional spatial strategies, homes, but beyond a certain level, the very sustainability when we should be empowering local communities to of the community is threatened. In the village of build homes with community backing. Satterthwaite in my constituency, more than half the In the 1980s, Michael Heseltine referred to planning houses are simply not lived in. Demand for the local bus as DADA—decide, announce, defend, abandon. The service, the post office and the school sunk to such a regional spatial strategies are a recipe for more and 183WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 184WH more DADA. Will the Minister agree to scrap the Hawkshead, and the Northern Affordable Homes regional spatial strategies and give the communities the development in Kirkby Lonsdale, were built affordably power to create the homes that they need, in the places but to a very high specification, and they are very where they are needed? Do not doubt that we will build attractive homes that will stand the test of time. the homes that are needed. In South Lakeland, we have I will finish in a moment, Mr. Key, but let me touch proved that we are not nimbys, but imbyps—“in my on the other side of the problem, which is the need for backyard, please.” well-paid work to enable people to live in and sustain To that end, I applaud the Government’s decision to their families in rural communities. The Government give a small amount of funding to help the establishment must look to rural Britain as an engine room of creativity, of community land trusts; £500,000 was announced in on many fronts. The right hon. and learned Member for August. However, given the value that community land North Warwickshire (Mr. O’Brien), when Minister with trusts can have in freeing up land for the development responsibility for renewable energy, kindly met me, and of affordable housing and in ensuring that local people representatives of the business community in Cumbria, have control over the allocation of such housing, should to discuss our attempts to create a new, green business the Government not take a more proactive role in park for the renewables industry near Kendal. If successful, making the community land trusts a substantial and that would create 900 jobs in south Cumbria. The regular part of the armoury when it comes to providing Government must get behind such schemes and be affordable homes, rather than allowing them to be the imaginative about ways in which we can exploit the rarities that they are? What about backing organisations hydro energy industry. such as the Cumbria Rural Housing Trust, which is leading the way in providing advice and support to What better way to boost local economies and provide community land trusts? Such trusts are struggling the homes that rural families are crying out for than to financially, largely because of the Government’s withdrawal scrap the artificial barriers that prevent the building of of support for the rural housing enabler scheme. Will new local authority housing, so that councils can respond the Minister agree to consider ways in which we can seamlessly and without delay and bureaucracy to the strengthen such organisations, as they have done so needs of their communities? The Minister has six months much to win community support for what might otherwise to undo this most appalling hangover of Thatcherism. have been controversial housing schemes? The lack of Will she ensure that her name goes down in history as affordable housing in rural areas is only half the problem; the one who made that happen? the other half is the lack of well-paid work. I started off by mentioning the national parks, which were created by a Labour Government who wanted to Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I congratulate preserve the countryside for the benefit of the whole my hon. Friend on his erudite and insightful speech. nation and ensure that our most beautiful places were Does he agree that the issues that he raises are common accessible to working people. The problem today is that to areas such as mid-Wales and Montgomeryshire? On a combination of Government ignorance of the challenges house building, has he investigated the work of certain faced by rural Britain and the continuation of a doggedly companies, including J-Ross Developments in my vicinity, free-market, laissez-faire approach to the development which have introduced the impressive concept of modular and protection of affordable housing has led to a situation house building? That means that we can have very high in which people on middle and low incomes are being quality and environmentally friendly houses for relatively squeezed out of those beautiful places. low prices. I want the countryside to be accessible to all, and it should be home to those on modest incomes, as well as Tim Farron: I do not know the company that my hon. those who are wealthy. I want a countryside with balanced, Friend mentions, but I am familiar with modular housing thriving communities of young and old. We will not as a concept, and with companies in my area that are achieve that if we continue as we are. As I said, the trying to push ahead with it. We must look very carefully, Government must tackle the problem of affordable particularly in national parks and areas of national or housing in urban and rural areas. They must understand international beauty, at how we can strike a balance that rural areas have significantly different problems, between attractive properties and affordable homes. We when it comes to providing affordable homes, and that need to make some compromises. In my constituency in we therefore need significantly different solutions. the Lake district and the dales, we are always delighted to have visitors, but how likely are people to visit such communities if those communities are dead? We must 9.49 am find ways of building homes that are affordable to the builder and, therefore, to the buyer. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I am delighted to take part in this debate, which is on a subject that Lembit Öpik: Just to reassure my hon. Friend, the seems to be debated regularly. Hopefully, we will make modular constructions that I have in mind are of high some progress today. quality, and are attractive, too. Perhaps at some point outside the debate, I can introduce him to those ideas, I certainly agree with the analysis of the problem by because they may go some way towards providing a the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim solution to his problem. Farron), although I have some slightly different solutions to those that he put forward. Nevertheless, many of the solutions will cross over. Tim Farron: If my hon. Friend has a chance later today, I should like to discuss the matter with him. He is This crisis has been coming for a long time. It is a absolutely right. Many of the homes in my constituency crisis with three strands. First, in many of the villages in have been built affordably. The recent developments in my constituency, there is quite simply no affordable 185WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 186WH

[Mr. David Drew] united in the view that their priority was to ensure that there was sufficient affordable housing in each village housing—that is the reality. We are not talking about community. That process continued until central the odd unit; they have all gone. I will go on to say what Government started to intervene and did not understand the repercussions are. the need that councillors of every party were prepared Secondly, on the back of that loss of housing we have to meet in their own communities. lost services. That is a key reason why post offices have closed. Government policy has not helped, but the Mr. Drew: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reality is that few people in rural areas either want to point; as always, he is right on the button. Let us not use or can use those facilities. Thirdly, there is a lack of fool ourselves—the right to buy in rural areas has been social mix in many of our communities now, which is an unmitigated disaster. It has been an unmitigated often underrated. It is a very bad thing, because it feeds disaster as a policy overall, because it has completely into the other two factors and is a consequence of them. skewed the housing market and the effect has been To be fair, if the Government accepted the recent generational. The generation that had the ability to buy report of the Commission for Rural Communities on and sell on has done very well but, of course, that has the issue, it would be a move in the right direction. I been at the cost of future generations. At long last, the know that we have been here before; reports from the Government have made it much more difficult for right Countryside Agency have laid down clearly what the to buy to operate. The trouble is that there are so few problems are and have come up with solutions. However, properties left that it is a fairly irrelevant change in let me start from a slightly different perspective from policy. the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale; I put The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale is this perspective four-square and I hope that the Government absolutely right; it is no good building houses in the are at long last listening. The reality is that we will not countryside if we do not provide jobs to go alongside solve the problem until the state takes the lead on them. Again, however, it is a complete myth that there is housing. We need about 300,000 units a year, but obviously, no work in the countryside. That is what is so annoying. we are barely building half that number at the moment, Those of us who live in rural areas know that there is because of the recession. plenty of work there—in the public services, in the care The way that we got to that figure of 300,000 units a industry and providing the basic core services that we year is completely misunderstood. Looking at history, need. There is, of course, also a growing provision and particularly the ’60s and ’70s, we can see that it was only need in rural areas related to crafts industries, because ever achieved when the state was leading the housing those industries can operate and deliver from anywhere. market. It is a myth to pretend that it is a private If we can get broadband to some of our more isolated enterprise-led initiative. Of course, the market has a rural communities, people can work from home. part to play, but not the leading part. I hope that the Government, with their new planning The Government need to get real and look at how the policies, recognise that. It is no good having planning state drives the process forward, which it can do in a policy statements 3 and 7, which look at both housing number of ways. Principally, the Government have to and sustainable development, if we do not invest in the put money in. We are beginning to put in some serious future of work in the countryside. Of course, that money, although it is a bit little and a bit late. Secondly, investment is absolutely vital at this stage. I must also it is about finding land and about the nature of the say that it would help if we could provide some building provision. I am a complete supporter of local authority jobs in the countryside, because that would of course housing. I am not a supporter of bad local authority provide some work. In that regard, we must understand housing, but the local authority has a role to play in the that the big developers will never be able to help us in process, because it is trusted and where it does well, it the countryside. They will only be interested in the delivers well. larger sites. That is part of the problem. We must Where are we with regard to rural areas? One of the disaggregate the way in which the construction industry great successes of the ’45 Labour Government was that works. they actually provided housing in our rural communities—in every community, from memory. Everyone got housing. Lembit Öpik: Regarding employment, I was able to We provided that row of local authority housing; it did attract a company called Regal Fayre, which is a burger not necessarily have to be provided in a row, but the manufacturer, to my area. The problem, however, was houses are all there. Of course, they are not owned by that the bank was resistant to lending money to the local authorities any more; they are not even housing company. Therefore, does the hon. Gentleman agree association properties. They have all been sold off over that there is an opportunity for a proactive strategy, to time, and the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale get companies that might assume that they should be in used a very good example when he said that such an urban environment to invest in a rural environment, properties often go for hundreds of thousands of pounds with the quality of life, low crime rates and good now. That is fine for the people who received the capital industrial relations that go with it? benefit, but the next generation have been sold out, because those people can never get into the housing Mr. Drew: Yes. That point is something that binds my market. argument. It is also something that I would like to ask my hon. Friend the Minister about, because I would be Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I reinforce interested to know how the Government are driving what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Before I came to forward rural policy, in terms of employment generation this place I was a rural district councillor in a local and trying to find innovative solutions, not just in authority where members of all parties were entirely housing but in job creation. That is a real challenge for 187WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 188WH the Government. As I said, it would have been helpful if Mr. Drew: I agree strongly. I thought that there were that thought had occurred to them some years ago. just two models: the mutual housing model and the There are some indications, notwithstanding some of equity release model. Someone—I cannot remember the mistakes that have been made in getting rid of rural who, because I have met so many wild and wonderful housing enablers and in not giving enough support to people over the years who were supposedly experts in local communities. In a sense, the boot is on the other the matter—found 11 or 12 models. I do not know what foot; even if central Government want to do all these they are because no one could ever show me, but I was things—provide the resources and look for land—it will told that there were many different models that were be no good if the communities themselves are not appropriate in different places. That just causes confusion. willing to take on the challenge. That is something that I wish that we could get on and examine the two main most of the communities in my constituency are willing models. I am not saying that the mutual model will to do, but some are not, and there needs to be some work in every situation, but it is at least worth trying. parity of treatment in the way that we expect local areas That is what we have done in the 13 or 14 pilots. My to provide sufficient affordable housing. It is possible hon. Friend the Minister might want to say where those through the exceptions policy, but too often, the policy pilots have got to. Some have delivered, some are still is seen as too difficult. I know that in some cases where delivering and some—I must say that this is the we have made provision, usually for housing associations, case with mine—have yet to deliver. We need to get on it is a bit like walking through treacle—it sometimes with it. takes as long as a decade to implement. Again, I challenge my hon. Friend the Minister to find ways to reduce the Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con): I have visited period of time that it takes from planning to getting the the community land trust project in the hon. Gentleman’s money together—as the hon. Member for Westmorland constituency. It is most impressive and could deliver and Lonsdale said—to deciding on the appropriate 70 or maybe even 100 homes. Does he agree that following housing and then, of course, to getting people into that English Partnerships’ insistence on repeating the work housing, which is not always easy. The exceptions policy already carried out by the community land trust by is a good policy, but it is often underused and it is often re-surveying all local residents, at a cost to the public of too difficult to implement. about £100,000, it could be argued that English Partnerships, That brings me to my penultimate point, which is that now the Homes and Communities Agency, is hindering I totally agree—as people would expect—with what the the project rather than helping it? hon. Gentleman said about community land trusts. However, we should be wary. As the hon. Member for Mr. Drew: I agree. As I said, it is like walking through Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), who is the Conservative concrete. I thought that having got to the stage where Front-Bench spokesman, knows, we have one of the the community knew that the site was going to be pioneering community land trusts in Stroud, at Cashes developed, it was completely irresponsible and unhelpful Green—I cannot remember if the hon. Gentleman has to go back and ask them what they wanted to develop it visited that trust, but he certainly knows about it and he for. That is completely at odds with where we should be. is a supporter of community land trusts. However, Community land trusts are important because they delivering on that project is not just like walking through are community-led and can provide a solution in rural treacle; it is like walking through concrete—it is absolutely areas, but we need to get on with it and consider how devilishly difficult, both in terms of English Partnerships they can deliver thousands of houses in many different and the Homes and Communities Agency. I will point areas, not see them as small projects that grind on. the finger now; they have failed to deliver on the Cashes There are other things that we can do as well. I am Green site. We are still at least a year away from being aware that the Government have moved and are moving, able to bring together all the different parties so that we but they need to move a lot further. My last question to can deliver on the project and I just do not know why. my hon. Friend the Minister is this. Of the substantial I could argue that I am part of the problem, because I increase in money for housing, what allocation can we want the whole Cashes Green site to be used. It is a in rural areas expect? We are not asking for a ring fence; former hospital site and it is ideal for the type of we are asking for some notion of what will be allocated delivery that community land trusts would allow, but I to rural areas. Unless we get state pump-priming, the am willing to negotiate. The trouble is that every time rest is irrelevant. I get parties together, we seem to have gone backwards rather than forwards. We have a planning application in 10.3 am place, but there are months and months of drift. Surely, Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I thank the one of the things that the HCA can do is to drive things hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim forward. I want to see a mutually-driven community Farron) for securing the debate and congratulate the land trust, which would be pioneering. That is what we hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) on his common-sense should be doing in rural areas; we should be looking for view, which I wish were shared by those on his own different types of scheme and driving forward different Front Bench. This debate gives us the opportunity to types of solution. discuss one of the most pressing issues in many of our Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): communities. Affordable rural housing and the lack of The hon. Gentleman speaks positively about community adequate provision have been addressed before, but land trusts, and rightly so, but my experience is that with a conspicuous lack of progress. every time we wish to implement one, we seem to have In 2003, in “Sustainable Communities”, the Government to reinvent it, with a lot of effort. One thing that the acknowledged that Government or the agencies could do is to derive a “The availability of housing, especially social and other affordable model that could be used consistently and persistently. housing, is a critical issue in many rural areas”. 189WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 190WH

[Mr. Andrew Turner] The powers should grant councils the opportunity to provide more ably for local people, rather than to interact In 2006, the Affordable Rural Housing Commission better with national targets as at present. stated that We find time and time again that targets have not “to meet the scale of the need in rural communities in all regions, been met. As I have noted, the Government are 13 per the issue must be addressed in its own right, and with urgency, cent. below their own target for this year. Revising rather than only after urban needs have been met”. targets down while house prices go up, as this Government The 2009 Taylor review on rural economy and affordable have done, creates a chasm between the desire to housing stated: get a foot on the housing ladder and the opportunity to do so. “Without change we will simply repeat the mistakes of recent decades…we will fail to stem the trend of smaller villages becoming Communities should be at the heart of rural dormitory settlements of commuters and the retired, ever less development. Too often, new rural housing is simply affordable for those who work within them.” deposited in existing communities with little thought for how it will integrate. For example, increasing the Yet report after report has led simply to shortfall after amount of hard surfaces in rural areas can increase shortfall. flood risk. New rural housing should therefore seek to I acknowledge that action has been taken, but too extend and complement communities, not simply exist little is still being done too slowly to address the problem. as an urban appendage of a rural village. Houses must By the Government’s own figures, they have missed the be constructed in proportion both to a village’s need target of 2,800 units for rural housing by 13.7 per cent. and its capacity to sustain such a need. The need for for 2009-10. Research by the Countryside Alliance paints those measures is accentuated by the influx of more an even bleaker picture. Need has been identified for affluent people in rural areas. The movement of people 235,000 new affordable homes, but it is estimated that from urban to rural areas reduces the number of homes only 51,000 will be created in 2009-10, representing only available to local people who cannot compete with the 22 per cent. of the number required. purchasing power of those who benefit from higher urban wages. Although I acknowledge that the recession makes it harder to deliver the solution to the problem of affordable I do not advocate a right for local people to live rural housing, it also worsens the problem itself. Wages locally. I believe that local homes should be more available are, on average, £4,600 lower in rural communities, to local people. More must be done to achieve that. while house prices for first-time buyers are £16,000 Landowners must be encouraged to play a greater role higher. Someone earning £17,000 a year might be able— in rural housing. Where necessary, people should be just—to buy a home in 50 per cent. of urban wards, relieved of the burden of having to own the soil under mostly in the north of England, but in only 28 per cent. their feet to put a roof over their heads. Housing costs of rural wards. Such disparities create barriers to would be lower if landowners could retain the land that opportunity. Local people, particularly the young, are properties are constructed on, possibly through a series unable to afford rising costs on lower incomes and are of tax incentives. If portions of land were effectively forced to move away from villages to find cheaper free to buyers and sellers, local people would have housing. A family moved from the village of Brook on greater opportunity in the housing market. Such a the Isle of Wight to the capital, Newport, 10 miles away. scheme could be started immediately on new sites that We may find that affordable housing is moving not are unsuitable for commercial development. simply elsewhere on the island but to the mainland. Finally, reducing VAT on maintenance work for current Such an exodus fragments communities and families. houses would encourage the re-use of almost 1 million empty properties in the UK. Before any new houses are Those who choose to stay in rural areas and small built, we must free up the ones that are not in use. Such towns also face problems. Though the rural population a scheme would have a lower environmental cost than is increasing, local population is decreasing and the building new homes from scratch. quality and availability of local services is declining. Some are getting better—Chale, with a population of This issue holds a mirror up to our society. It is not as 500, has a superb shop and post office—but others are small as just providing for a need, nor as complex as the getting worse. Roughly 10 post offices have closed in the problems it creates. Affordable rural housing is at the past few years. heart of what we think our society should be: fair and equitable. That should be our starting point and our The elderly in rural communities are specifically affected ultimate destination. If it is, we will be able to see by people moving away. Many elderly people are isolated statistics as the lives that they represent and families will as younger relatives leave villages and are forced in turn be supplied with the homes that they deserve. The to rely on public services, where before, relatives would opportunity that we have can become a potential fulfilled. have looked after them. Furthermore, they often depend on lower-paid welfare workers who themselves find it Robert Key (in the Chair): I will call the Front-Bench difficult to live in the communities where they work. spokesmen at 10.30 am. Daily commutes increase environmental costs as people travel from urban homes to rural workplaces. 10.12 am That is why we must address the issue in the same manner that it affects people. Rather than attempting to Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): provide a specific number of houses nationwide, the I intended not to make a speech this morning, but to Government should treat each locality as a specific case attend the debate and perhaps make an intervention. with specific needs. Granting greater planning powers However, I am surprised by the lack of enthusiasm for to councils and parishes would be a step towards that. this subject because it must be a constant theme that 191WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 192WH representatives of rural areas encounter in their surgeries. trespass on that ground. It is an important issue that I did not think that housing would be a big issue when I banks that are subsidised by taxpayers’ money are not was elected, but it has turned out to be one of the most aiding policies to provide rural housing development. important. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member As I have said before, the problem we are debating is for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) on his one of the key issues in rural areas. If we are a civilised comprehensive approach to the subject. I will touch on society, we must ensure that we have enough housing a few of the points he raised. for the people we represent. Anybody who solves this At the end of the recess, I led a small group that problem is worthy of an award with the status of a included representatives of the National Housing Federation Nobel prize. and the English young farmers clubs to meet the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the issue of affordable rural housing. There were many 10.18 am encouraging comments and many aspirations were Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to expressed. However, the delivery of houses is what is serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Key. I congratulate important. Many policies are in place, but they are not my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and matched by a determination to bring them to fruition. Lonsdale (Tim Farron) on securing this critical debate. One Department for Environment, Food and Rural This subject is one of the biggest issues in my constituency Affairs initiative that has proved effective is the position postbag and at my surgeries. of rural housing enabler, which was established with It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stroud pilot funding from the Department. Over time, that (Mr. Drew), who spoke about council housing. A large funding has been transferred to local authorities. part of Aberystwyth looks as though it is made up of Unfortunately, some local authorities have not continued council housing. Many people who come to my surgeries to employ rural housing enablers because of the financial believe in that myth and think that they will soon be pressures they are under. The hon. Member for Stroud able to access council housing. Sadly, half of the Ceredigion (Mr. Drew) said that making progress on this issue is housing stock has been sold off. As he said, some sometimes like wading through treacle, or even concrete. villages have a row of six council houses, all of which Rural housing enablers have the time, persistence and have been sold off, leaving no provision of council energy to do that. housing in those communities. I met the rural housing enabler in my area recently. As a Welsh MP, much of what can be done in my Some excellent work is being done in the village of constituency to assist first-time buyers and to improve Clyro. For example, land that is owned by local authorities the provision of housing is rightly the responsibility of and other public bodies is being identified to see if it the Welsh Assembly Government. They are trying to can be made available to other organisations for the secure renewed legislative competence in this area, including construction of social housing. The rural housing enabler the power to suspend the right to buy in areas of acute has proved effective in Crickhowell, where a development concern. It is a pity that that provision did not exist has been built that is proportional to the size of the somewhat earlier, when we had council housing to town. As is common, parts of the community were not protect in that way. hugely enthusiastic about the development. In the past, housing associations have been given targets for building Mr. Andrew Turner: Does the hon. Gentleman accept houses and have built in communities without doing the that although he has referred to problems, there are also necessary housing needs assessment. As a result, successes, such as Nettlestone on the Isle of Wight, communities have been left with more houses than they where a decision has been taken locally to build houses needed and have not benefited. for people to live in, and I think five or six houses have Many people believe that we cannot achieve a decent been built there recently? level of affordable rural housing without changing the planning system. However, there are examples throughout Mark Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that England of local authorities that have delivered for the intervention. I can trace my ancestry to the Isle of people they represent while working within the planning Wight, although not to that particular community. I guidelines and policies. One such authority was South accept the point that local initiatives need to be taken, Shropshire, which unfortunately no longer exists because and I will come on to that later. I simply wish to make it was taken over by Shropshire unitary authority. The the point that there is also a requirement for council work that was done in south Shropshire has been transferred housing and that we have lost a huge amount of that to the whole of Shropshire. The authorities in that area stock. have succeeded in delivering a suitable amount of affordable Like much of rural Wales, Ceredigion has for a long housing. time been one of the least affordable parts of the A problem with planning is the definition of a sustainable United Kingdom. According to the most recent figures, community, which is used to decide whether a community the house price to earnings ratio is about 6.4. As I say, could or should be expanded and developed. Some there is a chronic lack of social housing and, as of communities are deemed unsustainable because they do September, 2,594 people were waiting on the council not have a shop, church, chapel, pub or some other housing list. facility. Often, they do not have such facilities because After the fall in house prices—some evidence was they were closed when development was not allowed. provided by the Countryside Alliance among others to That is a chicken and egg situation. suggest that the fall was much lower in sparse rural My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mark areas—prices are rising again and rental prices remain Williams) will raise the issue of obtaining mortgages for largely static, as more people choose to rent if they can, properties with local ownership conditions, so I will not rather than attempt to buy. In my constituency, such a 193WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 194WH

[Mark Williams] It is bewildering for many of my constituents that some commercial high street banks are able to offer situation is compounded by steady migration into the services in this area when others are not. As my hon. county, which, of course, we welcome, and a burgeoning Friend said, it is bewildering because a vast amount of second home sector, to which my hon. Friend the Member public money has been pumped into the banking for Westmorland and Lonsdale alluded in relation to system—of course, there has been more on that in the his constituency. The problem is also compounded by news today. My fear is that many mortgages that could the success of the two universities in Aberystwyth and have been agreed if the right situation and arrangements Lampeter, which puts huge pressure on the rental sector. were in place have been lost because of this issue. Ultimately, the obvious problem, which has been Without redress, that will continue to happen. Although mentioned, is supply and demand. Until enough houses such experiences represent a minority of cases—the are built to meet the needs of communities, any measures letters I have had from the commercial banks say that to assist in making housing more affordable are likely it is only 3 or 4 per cent. of cases—the figures are simply to tinker around the edges of the problem. The significant for those of us in rural communities. Some hon. Gentleman mentioned the English figures on the banks have a positive record—Lloyds has even helped targets for delivery and the figure of 22 per cent in the local authority in Ceredigion to construct its relation to England. The figure is a little better in Wales, section 106 agreement—but I am afraid that others, but not much, at 31 per cent. Of course, actual delivery such as Abbey, Northern Rock, Royal Bank of Scotland, is likely to be significantly lower, given the economic HSBC and Nationwide, are not accepting the 106 criteria climate in rural areas. in my constituency. My main concern is, where there is private sector housing as a product of market development, those developments remain at a standstill in many cases because Mr. Roger Williams: An example of that in my of the difficulty in obtaining mortgage finance. I could constituency is in Newbridge-on-Wye, where a development literally take the Minister and her Welsh equivalents to for 12 affordable houses has not gone ahead because the scheme after scheme that is at a standstill in my constituency. condition that the local authority wanted to put on For example, there are schemes where, out of 10 houses, them meant that no mortgage provider would provide three are deemed by planning to be affordable and there the facilities to purchase them. is a planning requirement for them to be built first, yet both developers and prospective residents tell me that they are being hampered by the inability of prospective Mark Williams: That is precisely the point. The situation purchasers to access mortgages. is worse than that. There has been a marked lack of For many of my constituents, accessing mortgages is communication within the banks, which means we have nigh impossible. Yes, we need a banking sector that is reached a ludicrous situation where mortgage offers are more risk averse, but it is frustrating that people who given to constituents when they have meetings in the should by rights be benefiting from schemes that local high street branch, but when the offer is forwarded on authorities have introduced to make housing more to offices higher up the banking structure, it is told that affordable have had a patchy experience. The concern it was not entitled to make such an offer. My hon. raised by lenders is that such 106 properties have template Friend makes a good point. I know Newbridge-on-Wye agreements that ensure that if houses remain on the and that the issue is a problem there just as much as it is market for a certain period—perhaps six months—the elsewhere in Ceredigion. restrictions are gradually released. However, that is not always suitable, particularly in small rural communities These problems run deep. I am particularly concerned where there is acute need and where restrictions are put about the implication on service provision in our villages in place for good reason. I appreciate the work of the and the effect on young people. Going back to July Minister’s Department and the Assembly Government 2008—things have become markedly worse since then—the on the development of templates for 106 agreements, Taylor review identified that only 17 per cent. of purchases but I question the wisdom of the Council of Mortgage were made by first-time buyers. This is anecdotal, but a Lenders, although it makes the point that those templates young couple came to see me in 2005 because they had are not routinely or consistently used by local authorities. no housing opportunities. She worked as a carer on a low wage and he worked as a part-time employee at our How much flexibility do those 106 templates afford national library in Aberystwyth. If they had stayed in local authorities and how far does that impinge on local the area, they would have become part of the hidden circumstances and specific conditions? Sometimes those homeless, living in a spare room in a parent’s house, conditions necessitate that properties are deemed affordable rather than being able to access accommodation themselves. for perpetuity, and require that there are occupancy The couple were forced to leave the locality. controls for key service workers and that sales are restricted on the basis of local incomes. Those are the Over 20 years, the proportion of young people in realities of the need in many of our rural constituencies. rural areas has fallen from 21 to 15 per cent. It is a The Council of Mortgage Lenders has acknowledged sobering thought that without homes and jobs, there is that what it deems to be restrictive clauses lead to what no community left to support local shops, schools it describes as a “diminished appetite to lend.” That is and services. It is no coincidence that we are also having the reality for a growing number of my constituents, a debate in rural areas about the vibrancy of our who have come to see me. What discussions has the schools, and that we have had debates about the lack of Minister had to address the matter of the section 106 post offices and the loss of shops and pubs. Such issues templates, so that she can ensure her discussions with are intrinsically interconnected and we need a holistic the banks mirror the needs on the ground? approach from the Government to deal with them. 195WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 196WH

10.28 am the totemic objective that drives policy. They simply ignore the need for the more subtle and localised approach Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): I am pleased to wind that is required in many rural areas as they drive on up for the Liberal Democrats. I congratulate my hon. with their top-down, prescriptive approach, which is Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale inappropriate for rural areas. It is a tragedy for many (Tim Farron) on the manner in which he introduced rural areas that the Government are grinding on with a what is an extremely important debate for much, if not strategy that has failed successive Governments, who all, of rural Britain, given the pressures on the countryside have simply attached housing development numbers to and the difficulty of finding affordable housing for structure plans—now regional spatial strategies—in a many local families. I will, of course, have to overlook manner that does not necessarily address the intricacies his contentious opening remarks about the beauty of of the situation in rural areas. his constituency, particularly as mine covers west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, which everyone knows is far The Government have confused the means with the better by comparison. end. The end is to meet housing need, and the means to Although the statistics may vary in different parts of do that is to build 3 million houses by 2020, but that the country, certainly many of those mentioned relate target seems to have become the end of the Government’s to my part of the world as well, and we could read that policy. They have become so obsessed with building across to many other areas. It is important that my hon. those homes that they fail to recognise why they are Friend’s analysis of the problem concentrated on moving building them. Let me give an example from my part of towards solutions, and that the debate has not simply the world, Cornwall, where the housing stock has more been about raising a series of gripes and criticisms of than doubled in the past 40 years—indeed, we are the Government policy—instead, it has concentrated on third-fastest growing place in the UK. Like my hon. the way forward. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, I say that we are not nimbys; we are very much imbys. We The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) mentioned have accepted and welcomed development in our fast- the usefulness of the exceptions approach and the role growing area, which is densely populated for a rural of community land trusts, which are developing over area. However, at the end of those 40 years of perpetual time but which have to overcome enormous hurdles to growth, the housing need situation for local people achieve desired outcomes. The hon. Member for Isle of is worse. Wight (Mr. Turner) made an important contribution and emphasised the need to devolve greater planning One conclusion that we can draw from that example powers to local communities and local authorities. The is that simply building houses is not the answer. People Government should listen to comments on that theme, who follow housing policy in rural areas will recognise to which I shall return. that being a one-club golfer—simply building more and more houses without recognising and adapting to the My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire intricacies of the situation in rural areas—is part of the (Mr. Williams) made an important and telling contribution. problem. I think we all recognise that there is a difference He pointed out that although it is possible to work between land values in rural areas—between the value within the existing planning system, and although some of agricultural land and the value of development land. local authorities, such as the former South Shropshire That is the elephant in the room. The stroke of a pen at authority, were able to work with the limited tools a local planning committee can increase the value of an available to them, there is no room for complacency. acre of land from £3,000 or £4,000 to the equivalent of The difficulties that local authorities have to overcome a lottery win. We know that the planning system is to meet local housing need are enormous and, if anything, fuelled by greed rather than need, and that fundamental getting worse. problem has made it extremely difficult to meet housing My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mark need. The need for a policy that meets housing need Williams) emphasised the need for powers to be while retaining the integrity of the planning system and devolved—to Wales in his case. He also emphasised the not simply turning it into a developers’ charter is something important role of the banks and lending institutions in that local authorities fully understand, and they need to oiling the wheels to help the intermediate market properly take those considerations on board when they address take off. Those of us who have taken up casework in our these issues. areas and who are trying to assist such developments, particularly those with section 106 obligation agreements We need to expand the exceptions approach that the attached, have found that the lending institutions have hon. Member for Stroud touched on. We also need to not been particularly helpful. expand the intermediate market. Yes, the lending institutions need to be more on board than they are, but we also I should declare an interest. Before I was elected to need to give local authorities the power and tools to the House, I was a rural housing enabler before rural address need. We cannot simply get around the problem housing enablers were invented. I worked with a local by building cheap housing. I do not think that my hon. charity in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, and I was Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) one of the first shareholders in the Cornwall Rural meant or implied that we were talking about cheap Housing Association, which was established in 1986. housing for people who are in housing need. As my I shall concentrate primarily on two issues, the first of right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed which is the fundamental problem of the dead hand of (Sir Alan Beith) said a moment ago, in the past, local centralised control and its impact on the ability of local authorities knew about meeting local housing need and authorities properly to address the need for affordable they built decent houses. What we are doing at the housing in their areas. Regional spatial strategies have moment is cramming people into unfeasible spaces and been mentioned by several speakers. The Government’s creating ghettos for the future. We will regret that overall objective of building 3 million homes by 2020 is approach in years to come. 197WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 198WH

[Andrew George] If the problem is big, what are the solutions? I was struck by the contribution made by the hon. Member My second point is about second-home ownership, for Stroud (Mr. Drew), who spoke of the need for the which has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Government to get more stuck in and produce more Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale and others. homes. He argued for a more top-down, centralised The issue is not about the politics of envy. We have approach to housing. I did not agree with that part of achieved the removal of 40 per cent. of the 50 per cent. his speech because it strikes me that such an approach council tax discount that was costing the taxpayer about has not worked over the past few years, but I most £200 million a year. It was clearly morally unacceptable certainly agreed with his second point about community to subsidise the wealthy for their second homes while land trusts, particularly the excellent one in Stroud, thousands of rural folk could not afford a first home, so which I shall talk about in a moment. that subsidy had to be done away with. I remember a I also acknowledge the excellent speech made by my debate in this Chamber with the hon. Member for hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner), Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin), when he was a Local who described in detail the problem of unaffordable Government Minister. I had been carrying on about the housing for the inhabitants of the island, many of issue for years, and I told him that all I had heard from whom are forced to move off the island to find somewhere the Government were complacent responses, and he reasonable to live. That problem was reflected in different said, “Well, I’ve been reading complacent responses for ways by the hon. Members for Brecon and Radnorshire too long,” and put his notes down. We had a little chat (Mr. Williams) and for St. Ives (Andrew George). afterwards, and the policy changed thereafter. I would like Ministers to take that kind of initiative. I turn to some of the solutions. We all agree that community land trusts could provide a large part of the I have undertaken surveys of estate agents in my solution, but the problem is that very little is actually constituency for many years. The last one I conducted happening. Some time ago I met Sir Bob Kerslake, demonstrated that three times as many properties were shortly after he had become chief executive of the sold to second-home buyers as to first-time buyers. I am Homes and Communities Agency, who proudly told me sure that many people will feel that that should be that his ambition was for the HCA to help deliver four addressed, but before we can address the problems that community land trusts by the end of this year—only second-home ownership creates, we must define what it four. I do not know whether it is on track to meet that is. The Government have always used the difficulty of target and I will be sure to ask him when we meet this defining second-home ownership as an excuse for not afternoon, when I shall also ask whether one of those addressing the issue. We could use the capital gains tax trusts is in Stroud. It seems to me that the goal is register or references to form that definition. The recent nothing short of pathetic. exposure of MPs’ misuse of the system of electing where their primary residence is demonstrates why that The idea of community land trusts has been around area of tax and tax record needs to be properly tightened. for decades. Indeed, I set up a community land trust Using the electoral register, the council tax register, the taskforce last year to try to find out why they had not business rate register and local knowledge, I believe it succeeded, and a contributor to the taskforce explained would be possible to define where second homes are. that he had first stumbled across the idea 30 years ago. Once we had achieved that, we could bolt other policies It is a mystery why things have taken this long, which on to it, such as tax and planning controls that would the taskforce is unravelling. One of the problems, as the allow local authorities to determine whether someone hon. Member for Stroud mentioned, is that even after a should be allowed to turn a permanent residence into a collection of people have got together, decided on an second home. I hope that the Minister has been listening idea and gone out to consult the public, other bureaucratic and that she will pass my comments to her ministerial obstacles get in the way. He said that can lead to a colleagues, and that we will get some movement on 10-year delay, but I can tell him that the village of the issue. Essendon in my constituency has been waiting for between 20 and 30 years for a few houses to be redeveloped, even though they are nothing more than asbestos-ridden, 10.39 am post-war bungalows that are falling down and derelict. I Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield) (Con): I congratulate went to a village meeting in Essendon to listen to local the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim concerns about housing and assumed that people might Farron) on securing this excellent debate, which has talk about the Government’s plan to stuff 10,000 to been of far better quality than some housing debates I 15,000 homes nearby, but in fact they wanted to talk have attended in this Chamber. I also congratulate the about the lack of affordable housing in the village and Minister, whose constituency of Stevenage neighbours explain to me how long they had been waiting for my own, on her new role; it is not an easy job because something to be done. the problems of rural housing, as hon. Members have Having visited Stroud, Rock in Cornwall and most of explained this morning, are enormously complex and the pilot community land trust schemes across the acute. country, we developed the idea of local housing trusts, I will not spend too much of the precious time which would be like community land trusts. Land would available repeating the figures that have been mentioned be locked in perpetuity for the benefit of the local this morning, other than to emphasise the extremeness community, answering local need for affordability.However, of the position. Six of the 10 least affordable places to there would be one significant difference: a local housing live in Britain are in rural areas, the second least affordable trust would be able to grant itself planning permission being the south-west. There really is an emergency out to build. During the last few months of this Government, there, and we have only seen the crisis get worse over the will the Minister give serious consideration to enabling past few years. local housing trusts to go out there and do their job? 199WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 200WH

Having visited places across the country, I am convinced I do not intend to talk much about the vitally important that there would be a large demand once local people subject of the rural economy, mainly because the debate are given the direct power to say, “This is our community is about affordable housing, but I know how the two and we are not prepared to sit back and wait for interlock and how important businesses are to rural someone else to ride to our rescue, because we know economies, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud what needs to happen here”, rather than having to rely (Mr. Drew) mentioned. I know that not only as a on a regional spatial strategy that orders them to place constituency MP, but as Minister for the East of England, the housing in a particular area or wait for the local which has significant rural representation. In that role, I authority to sign off on the development of just a dozen would like to counsel the hon. Members for Welwyn houses in a village. The land might come from the Hatfield, and for Westmorland and Lonsdale, not to parish, the local authority, a benefactor or a landowner, discard completely regional spatial strategies, which or people might have to buy the land themselves, but have their role. The Taylor report rightly pointed out because that land would be on an exception site, the that we need to keep track of the impact of those only buyer in town would be a local housing trust, so strategies on rural areas. Indeed, a report on that impact one would expect the houses on it to be built at a is shortly to be published. reasonable, in-between price. Grant Shapps: With regard to the Minister’s plea to That is how we can start to solve the affordable keep regional spatial strategies, is she aware that in both housing crisis in our rural communities. It would allow her constituency and mine it is now the RSS that is people to reinvigorate the parishes and villages that are delaying homes from being built? suffering from falling populations and finding as a result that the village school cannot stay open, that the Barbara Follett: Much as I hate to contradict the hon. post office closed two years ago or that they cannot Gentleman, I believe that it is the fact that the county of sustain a GP surgery. Putting people back in control Hertfordshire is taking us to court over the RSS that is and allowing them to innovate for their own communities delaying homes being built. Also, I fear that the instruction is far more likely to achieve a solution than the vast that the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) has array of quangos set up by the Government. given to Conservative councils—there are many more I invite the Minister, in her response, to take some of such councils than Labour or Liberal Democrat ones—to those ideas on board. It cannot make sense to have take the Government’s money and not build houses but regional spatial strategies with a whole string of quangos just lodge planning objections is having a slowing effect under them, such as EEDA, CEDA, ERA, SERA, on building projects such as the one west of Stevenage. I NERA, DERA and many more besides, none of which believe that there have been attempts to build that for has delivered the kind of housing numbers we require, 25 years. That kind of conservatism, with a small and a particularly in our rural areas. I invite her not only to large c, is putting up barriers to many of the things that match the idea of local housing trusts, with power to we are trying to do. Charles Darwin said that it is not grant themselves planning permission, but to match our the biggest or the smallest species that survive, but the policy of allowing local areas to keep the council tax. species that are willing to adapt, and I regret that the They should keep not only the council tax that is hon. Gentleman’s party has not learned that lesson yet. collected at the moment, but 100 per cent of it, pound for pound, matched in addition for every single new Andrew George: Much as I regret having to intrude in home that is built for a period of six years. To ensure a local spat, I wonder whether I could bring the Minister that sufficient numbers of affordable homes are built, back to the primary issue, which is the relevance and they should keep 125p for every pound of council tax impact of regional spatial strategies, which several people collected. That is the way to incentivise local communities have mentioned? In particular, I bring her back to the and ensure that they get something back from regeneration fact that because they represent the dead hand of central and additional housing. If we put local people in control, control, they do not allow local authorities to show trust them and give them the power, tools and incentives, their initiative, to cut deals and to address local housing I guarantee that more homes will be built. If the Minister need. will not do that, we will certainly be happy to. Barbara Follett: There are two ways of looking at control: as a dead hand or as an enabling hand. I see it 10.47 am as enabling—one just has to know how to work the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for system well. I would like to make progress, because a Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): vast number of questions were raised, and I am not sure It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, that I shall manage to answer them. Mr. Key.I congratulate the hon. Member for Westmorland I know that the latest statistics from the Commission and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) on securing the debate and for Rural Communities show that, on average, house on giving us an opportunity to air this vitally important prices in rural areas are more than seven times higher subject once again in this Chamber. He obviously belongs than household income. I am even more aware that that to the William Cowper school of thought; like the poet, compares unfavourably with figures for urban areas, he believes that man made the town, but God made the where prices are 6.3 times the average household income. country, but he extends that to the assertion that God For that reason, among many others, rural housing and made his constituency and did not seem to have much housing as a whole are high on the Government’s of a hand in any of the other 645 in the country. I will agenda. not argue about that here, as the hon. Member for We will invest £7.5 billion in housing as a whole, from Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) and I both inhabit which one cannot divorce rural housing, in England extremely beautiful constituencies and would be prepared between 2009 and 2011 to deliver 112,000 new affordable to argue that point outside. homes. In the past 12 months, we have built 47,000 201WH Affordable Housing (Rural Areas)3 NOVEMBER 2009 Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) 202WH

[Barbara Follett] statement 3, which the Government introduced in 2006, makes local authorities responsible for providing housing affordable homes, 2,400 of which were in small, rural that contributes to the creation and maintenance of communities of fewer than 3,000 people. Given that we sustainable communities in market towns and villages. were—and still are, to some extent—in the middle of It also gives local authorities some of the power for one of the worst recessions in living memory, that is no which hon. Members have been asking. We allow local mean feat. authorities to set site size thresholds that are below the national minimum, and, where practical, they can grant Grant Shapps: Will the Minister give way? permission for 100 per cent. affordable housing on small sites that would not normally be released for Barbara Follett: I am sorry, but I have to make housing. progress. Since the rural White Paper of 2000, all Departments Throughout the recent downturn, we have taken steps have had to rural-proof their policies. In 2007, the hon. to secure housing growth and to support the construction Member for Truro and St. Austell (Matthew Taylor) industry. Measures such as the 2009 Budget stimulus was invited by the Prime Minister to report on package, the housing pledge and the local authority “the application of land use planning to facilitate the provision of home building programme—yes, indeed, it has started land for greater economic and social sustainability within rural again—commit the Government to invest a further communities”. £1.5 billion to build 20,000 more new affordable homes The hon. Gentleman’s report, entitled “Living Working by the end of next year. Countryside”, was published in 2008, and my Department, The Kickstart programme, which, as its name suggests, along with the Department for Environment, Food and aims to get stalled sites building again, is also moving Rural Affairs, has published a joint response, which sets ahead. Indeed, of the 37 approvals in Kickstart round 1, out the actions that we will take to implement it. In 14 are in rural areas, where schemes for up to 30 units April, one of those actions resulted in £500,000 going were allowed to bid for funding. By contrast, in urban into a three-year project to establish a sustainable areas, schemes had to have at least 50 units to be community land trust sector, in which independent, eligible. In addition, as part of the housing pledge, the not-for-profit organisations own and control land and Government have allocated £7 million to rural authorities facilities for the benefit of the community. to build more than 200 new social rented homes in We have also done a great deal to allow people to small settlements across the country. purchase homes under our low-cost home ownership We know that rural areas face particular challenges, schemes, and here I would like to try to deal swiftly with such as a shortage of suitable sites and a lack of the access-to-loans issue that hon. Members have raised. infrastructure, which make it more expensive to deliver It is a real problem, and, as both a Department for an affordable home in a rural area than in an urban one. Communities and Local Government Minister and a That makes the targets that we set at the beginning of regional Minister, I have meetings with the banks to the current spending review period for the delivery of ensure that those who wish to buy affordable homes can affordable homes in rural areas even more challenging get the credit that they need to do so. We are working than those set for other areas. [Interruption.] Iam with lenders on that, and HomeBuy Direct, Halifax, the about to deal with that. Royal Bank of Scotland, Nationwide, Woolwich and Sadly, the target of the Housing Corporation—now HSBC have all agreed to loosen some of their risk-averse known as the Homes and Communities Agency—which practices, but we still have to work hard to get the was originally for 10,300 affordable homes to be delivered money flowing again. in small rural settlements between 2008 and 2011, has Section 106 has proved a real problem, but we shall had to be reduced to 8,500, thanks to the toughest introduce community infrastructure levies, which are market conditions in living memory. However—this is currently out to consultation. We hope that they will be important—that target is an ambition, not a limit. We in force in 2010, and that they will be a more efficient hope that we can secure more new affordable dwellings and more sustainable means of delivering infrastructure through Kickstart and local authority new-build via the developer and the local authority. I wish to end programmes. by saying that affordable housing in rural communities As the hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) is a problem, but one that this Government are doing said, planning has a major role to play in the delivery of their best to solve, and I would welcome the co-operation affordable homes in rural areas, and planning policy of other parties on the matter. 203WH 3 NOVEMBER 2009 Farm Animal Welfare 204WH

Farm Animal Welfare which was introduced in 2003 and wound up this year, is another example of good intentions that did not lead to real change—at considerable cost to the taxpayer. An 11 am evaluation conducted by Deloitte tactfully concluded Mr. Chris Mullin (Sunderland, South) (Lab): I intend that to highlight the importance of public sector food “take-up of the initiative was limited.” procurement and the role it has to play in improving Both schemes had some short-term successes, but they animal welfare standards for meat and poultry in the were expensive and did not achieve long-term change. United Kingdom and abroad. I will concentrate on one The moral of the story is clear: voluntary schemes do key area of public procurement—eggs—although the not work; real change depends on introducing mandatory argument could equally apply to pork or any one of a standards. number of factory farmed products. I call on the Government to introduce legislation that will prohibit David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): the public sector from buying eggs produced by caged My hon. Friend is focusing on egg production, but hens and encourage the purchase of eggs produced to chicken meat and other areas are just as important. The higher animal welfare standards, progressing on a sliding Minister, who is a decent and able man, may respond by scale from barn eggs, to free range to organic, including saying that Departments are required to seek best value, eggs that are purchased individually as well as those from which we infer that that they obsess to an extent used as ingredients. In doing so, I wish to make a larger on price. Does my hon. Friend agree that husbandry, point about public sector food procurement, which is locality and quality should be incorporated within that that fine words and lofty sentiments are not enough. best-value concept and that that will drive up nutritional The Government must take the lead by introducing standards, as well as the welfare standards in respect of mandatory health and sustainability standards for all the animal products we use? public sector food. I place on the record my thanks to those estimable organisations, Sustain, Compassion in Mr. Mullin: Yes, I agree. I will touch on some of those World Farming and the Royal Society for the Prevention points later. of Cruelty to Animals, for the part that they are playing in helping to achieve this goal. Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): Does the There are four legally recognised categories of eggs: hon. Gentleman agree that price has to be important, caged, barn, free range and organic. Caged eggs are because we are talking about public bodies? One reason produced to the lowest standards of animal welfare, we have price inflation is because the consumer—the from hens in cramped, tiered cages with sloping mesh bulk of those purchasing foodstuffs in this country—is floors. Each hen has an equivalent living space of unable to differentiate between products that are produced 550 sq cm, which is less than an A4 piece of paper. The to our own high welfare standards and those that are strength of public opposition to cage-produced eggs produced elsewhere to a standard that falls far short of resulted in a decision by the European Commission to that. Would it not be best if we were able to give outlaw the sale of caged eggs by 2012. Barn eggs, free consumers proper choice? If that happened, the competitive range and organic eggs are reared to considerably higher disadvantage of our own producers would be, to some standards: they come from hens that have access to extent, erased and one would hope that prices would litter and to the nest site of their choice. They can flap fall as a result, generating a win-win situation for both their wings, exercise and explore their environment. public sector bodies and animal welfare. History shows that achieving real improvements in the health and sustainability of public sector food is Mr. Mullin: Yes, I am in general agreement with the only possible by introducing mandatory standards. The hon. Gentleman on that. However, price is not the only Government’s success in revolutionising school food consideration. I have always believed that we have to was achieved because legislation was passed to introduce take into account the consequences of our actions. As mandatory nutritional guidelines monitored by the School all those hon. Members who have taken an interest in Food Trust. Indeed, the problem with public sector factory farming know, it involves some disgusting practices food has not gone unnoticed by Government. There has that many farmers deeply regret; in fact, many farmers been a rash of activity, which no doubt the Minister will feel forced into pursuing such practices by the continuous tell us about in a moment, aimed at improving the drive to the bottom that occurs if price is the only nutritional and sustainability of public sector food by factor. The hon. Gentleman is right: there is no point voluntary means. Although well-intended, such projects making the reforms here if imports produced in countries have failed precisely because they were introduced as that do not observe the same standards are dragged in. voluntary initiatives and missed out on the concrete We have to bear that in mind. benefits that would have been achieved by introducing Procurement standards across the public sector vary mandatory standards. widely. Some public sector organisations have made Millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money has been tremendous progress in buying healthier food from wasted on such initiatives. The £40 million spent on the sustainable sources. Lancashire county council, for example, better hospital food initiative in 2001, for example, must be credited for its decision to go cage-free. The which introduced new menus for hospital food devised council uses more than 500,000 a year and has changed by a celebrity chef, did not achieve a step change in the its supply to free-range eggs for its schools and care nutritional quality of hospital food. A more integrated homes, which will liberate more than 2,000 hens from attempt to improve public sector food under the six-year battery cages every year. So far, about 40 local authorities, public sector food procurement initiative, managed by out of a total of 468, have followed Lancashire’s example the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and committed to going cage-free. Were others to follow 205WH Farm Animal Welfare3 NOVEMBER 2009 Farm Animal Welfare 206WH

[Mr. Mullin] Mr. Mullin: I absolutely accept that, and I touched on it in my response to the hon. Member for Westbury suit, it would surely have a powerful impact on the (Dr. Murrison). Perhaps I should also have said that welfare of hens and would help lower costs and prices consumers are entitled to much better information about and would, therefore, encourage the private sector to do where their meat comes from, which requires proper likewise. labelling. I am pleased to report that numerous schools, hospitals It has not been possible to calculate the exact percentage and universities are also switching. Other taxpayer-funded of caged eggs purchased in the public sector, but it is a organisations are going cage-free, including the BBC, matter of record that the dreaded race to the bottom in the British Library, Transport for London and the public sector food procurement—where organisations House of Commons. However, caged eggs continue to are required to find the cheapest price for food products be served across the public sector, in schools, hospitals regardless of other considerations—often results in the and care homes. There is a postcode lottery in public purchase of the least healthy and least sustainable food sector food procurement. The missing ingredient required option available. That is no fault of public sector caterers, to address that is compulsion. I fear that further voluntary but merely reflects the environment in which they must initiatives, such as the healthier food mark, will simply work. Progress has been slow. Only 40 of 468 local use more public funds on ineffective interventions that authorities have followed the example of Lancashire will achieve neither better quality food, nor healthier county council. Sadly, it remains the case that the consumers. overwhelming majority of eggs purchased in the public The public are ready for change. There has been a sector are caged eggs. As the hon. Member for Brecon huge increase in consumer awareness of the appalling and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams) said, that is at a time animal welfare standards involved in caged egg production when companies such as McDonald’s, Subway and and a significant increase in sales of eggs that meet Starbucks buy free range eggs. higher welfare standards. Nearly half of all eggs sold in The trend towards free range and organic eggs has UK supermarkets now come from higher welfare systems. resulted in a strong supply base for those products. So we have made considerable progress. Market results from last year show that 47 per cent. of the UK’s egg market is for non-caged eggs, and that Mr. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): sales of free range eggs have increased by 12 per cent. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about since the previous year—a trend that is expected to the market driving improvements in animal welfare, continue. with 50 per cent. of eggs sold in supermarkets being free If the fact that the commercial sector is leading the range. Surprisingly, all the eggs served by McDonald’s, way on higher animal welfare standards for eggs is not for instance, are free range now. That is a testament to sufficient motivation for the Government to prohibit the power of the market. the purchase of caged eggs, there is a simple business case for doing so. Prohibiting public sector procurement Mr. Mullin: It certainly is because, as we know, of caged eggs would bring down the cost of barn, free McDonald’s is ruthlessly moved by the power of the range and organic eggs over time by achieving economies market, and where it goes the public sector should of scale secured by long-term public sector contracts. surely be able to follow. Compass Group, the biggest contract catering company Last year, concern about the link between intensive in the world, has already expressed support for the farming and the emergence of virulent forms of flu, introduction of mandatory standards for the procurement including swine flu from pigs, has increased pressure on of public sector food. In evidence to the Council of meat and poultry producers to examine the conditions Food Policy Advisers, a body created by the Minister’s in which their animals are reared. In the poultry industry, Department, Compass stated that mandatory rules would the unhealthy and overcrowded conditions endured by simplify the procurement process, bring more local intensively farmed chickens may have contributed to suppliers into the supply chain, and bring down the cost the creation of virulent strains of avian flu. Such concerns of food that meets higher sustainability criteria, including have, in part, influenced consumer opinion, which has animal welfare standards. begun to swing resoundingly against caged eggs. Witness the fact that Sainsbury’s, Marks and Spencer, Waitrose Abundant evidence suggests that healthier and more and the Co-op have already taken action and banned sustainable public sector food would not increase the the sale of caged eggs in their stores. Commercial cost to the public purse, but bring it down. The East operators are subject to the whim of their customers, Ayrshire schools’ food for life partnership showed that and decreasing demand for eggs reared in caged conditions buying organic local produce had an almost immediate represents public feeling. A MORI poll in July 2005 effect on the local economy by creating jobs and increasing showed that a majority of UK consumers believe that profits. It also anticipated longer-term public savings in cages are cruel and should be outlawed. It is time that reducing diet-related ill health and carbon emissions. the public sector caught up with what has become best The British egg industry would also benefit. It has practice in a large part of the private sector. come a long way in recent years. British egg producers should be rewarded for high-quality eggs reared to high Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): Does my hon. animal welfare standards. A ban on caged eggs in the Friend accept that part of the problem is that the EU public sector would be a huge boost for the British egg has dragged its feet and that, to be fair, the UK Government industry because their supply is more easily available would have gone further and faster? Limitations must and cheaper when sourced in the UK. We should not be properly constructed to ensure that third country forget that there are still more than 300 million laying imports of poor quality produce do not come here. hens in Europe, more than two thirds of which are Otherwise, people will be cheated. housed in battery cages. Without mandatory standards, 207WH Farm Animal Welfare3 NOVEMBER 2009 Farm Animal Welfare 208WH a cheap and tempting alternative market exists for public Mr. James Paice (South-East Cambridgeshire) (Con): sector caterers who want to continue bumping along the I hope not. bottom. Taxpayer’s money should be spent on public sector Tim Farron: I concur with the comment from stage food with a positive rather than negative impact, and right; I will not be long at all. for the benefit not just of animal welfare, but of our It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship health, the environment and local economies. The only again this morning, Mr. Key. I sincerely congratulate way to be sure that public sector food serves that the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin), purpose is to lead by example. who secured the debate, on seeking it in the first place and on raising a tremendously important issue. The David Taylor: Will my hon. Friend pick up an idea bulk of his speech was about caged eggs, which is a that many of us on the Select Committee on Environment, seriously important issue. Movement away from caged Food and Rural Affairs promoted some years ago that eggs towards humane forms of farming is essential, and Departments should be prohibited from purchasing UK poultry farmers are leading the way in ensuring food that is produced to anything less than the standards that the most humane forms of egg farming become the incorporated in the red tractor scheme? norm. It is important to say that at the beginning. Mr. Mullin: Yes. That is a reasonable, desirable and We are encouraged to think of ourselves these days as achievable goal, given the necessary political will. active consumers, not passive participants, and we exercise More than £2 billion of taxpayers’ money is spent on that power positively and negatively. Like many other public sector food each year. The average British taxpayer hon. Members present, I suspect, and others here, I forks out approximately £70 a year on food purchased, exercised my own personal boycott of companies that prepared and served in the public sector. Numerous gave succour to the apartheid regime in South Africa, benefits can be achieved by introducing mandatory for example. On a positive note, like many others present— health and sustainability standards for the food that probably most of us—I use my consumer power to buy that money pays for. Public sector food should help to Fairtrade products and locally sourced food. solve environmental health and social problems, rather However, our power as consumers is surely never than exacerbate them. greater than when our collective power is exercised The United Nations calculates that the global food through public bodies, acting on behalf of us all, choosing system is responsible for between 20 and 30 per cent. of to purchase goods and services ethically. How we spend the world’s greenhouse gas emissions. Introducing the £2 billion of taxpayers’ money that goes on food mandatory sustainability standards for public sector each year is immensely important. It is even more food would have a significant impact on changing what important than my refusal in the 1980s to allow Barclays we buy and eat in the UK, and on the environment in the privilege of managing my student overdraft. We can due course. That could be achieved by setting an example influence an awful lot of producers and, as we have of sustainable consumption for public sector food heard, an entire market with £2 billion. This debate consumers, and would have a big impact on bringing allows us to hold the Government to account for their down the cost of sustainable produce for the benefit of failure to use that influence positively to date. all consumers. That would be only a first step. The arguments applying David Taylor: The hon. Gentleman is right to point to eggs apply equally to other produce. Creating demand to the scale of the concerns with which we are dealing. for sustainable produce in the public sector would bring Is he aware that the number of chickens bred for meat in down the cost of organic fruit and vegetables, sustainable this country is about 800 million a year and that the fish, and animal welfare-friendly meat and poultry. scale of cruelty quite often involved in their breeding Mandatory health standards for the public sector would and slaughtering is such that anyone who cares about improve health, not least for schoolchildren, hospital the way in which we treat sentient animals that we are to patients, and members of the armed forces, many of use for food would be grossly offended? Should we not whom eat public sector food three times a day. It has be focusing on that, as well as on the worthy intentions been estimated that in the UK alone 70,000 premature of my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South deaths are caused by diet-related ill health. Public sector (Mr. Mullin)? food should aim to bring that figure down rather than drive it up. Tim Farron: Yes. One measure of a civilised society is In a nutshell, a Government commitment to purchase how we treat our fellow animals. What I am concerned only free range eggs would improve animal welfare, about and what I know the hon. Gentleman is concerned support British farmers, and not increase costs. That about is how we use the power of the public purse to can be achieved only with mandatory standards, not by achieve the transformation to which he refers. It is yet another voluntary initiative. It would command incredibly important. The Government have not used great public support and bring public sector food into their power appropriately or sufficiently and have failed line with the food that people generally consume at to build animal welfare and other, broader ethical concerns home. That is what is commonly referred to as a no-brainer. into their procurement policies when they could have I rest my case. done so. In response to the intervention from my hon. Friend 11.19 am the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams), Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I am the hon. Member for Sunderland, South referred to the on early, but I probably will not keep my speech going reality, which is that McDonald’s is ahead of the UK for 40 minutes. In fact, you would not be grateful if I Government. I would have thought that was a serious did, Mr. Key. embarrassment to the UK Government and an indictment 209WH Farm Animal Welfare3 NOVEMBER 2009 Farm Animal Welfare 210WH

[Tim Farron] simple to take the lead. It is not a case of persuading others to do the right thing; it is something that they not only of the policies of central Government, but also can do almost with the stroke of a pen. of the many different agencies and bodies that spend The public sector spends approximately £2 billion taxpayers’ money. every year on food procurement, providing more than There is much to be horrified by, as has been said, but 1 billion meals for Departments, schools, prisons and we can be encouraged by the fact that animal welfare hospitals. The national health service is the largest standards in the UK are just about the best in the purchaser of food in the country. It spends £500 million, world, and that includes welfare standards at farms that which is nearly a quarter of the total public sector food are industrial in scale. As a consequence of our high budget. However, as much as 75 per cent. of the meat standards, consumers, including me, buy British as a products used in our hospitals are imported from abroad. fairly reliable proxy for shopping ethically. Buying British In Whitehall, the problem is just as bad. I do not not only reduces food miles while supporting local think that I have ever had the privilege of going to the farmers, but rewards producers who put animal welfare Treasury and consuming anything there, but only 60 per at the heart of everything that they do, not just in egg cent. of the meat served to staff and visitors to the production but with regard to all food production. Treasury is sourced from British farms. The same applies to the proportion of meat sourced from the UK by the Mr. Roger Williams: My hon. Friend is making very Department for Work and Pensions. As has been said, important points. Egg producers in this country often no doubt cost minimisation is the major criterion for complain that eggs are imported from areas that have those in charge of food procurement, but surely we lower welfare conditions, but they also complain that should ensure that Government policy is not compromised eggs are imported not only as whole eggs but as egg by the rush to get a cheap deal. products—liquid egg and powdered egg—so it is almost In 2005, the British Pig Executive estimated that more difficult to ascertain their source of origin. Those 70 per cent. of the pig meat imported to the UK was products go into the manufacture of confectionery and reared in conditions that would have been illegal in this so on. The Government ought to be addressing egg country.Is it right that when it comes to public procurement, products as well as eggs. taxpayers’ money should be used to endorse and encourage what would be in this country illegally low standards of Tim Farron: That is absolutely right. My hon. Friend animal welfare? raises a range of issues, one of which I shall come to in a The reality is that Departments subcontract catering moment—that farmers who farm ethically can find and often, therefore, procurement to private firms, but themselves at a competitive disadvantage. There is the it is not acceptable for Ministers to wash their hands of broader issue about honesty in labelling, although one the responsibility.It is entirely possible for tender documents hopes that public sector procurers understand what to specify conditions based on quality, animal welfare they are buying. If products being purchased in bulk and local sourcing, and this debate gives the Minister are reconstituted and come from producers with poor the opportunity to say that he will ensure a change of animal welfare standards, the consumer needs to be policy to make that happen. protected generally through honest and accurate labelling, but surely the state—the public sector—will not have Ensuring strict animal welfare standards across the the wool pulled over its eyes; it will know what it is European Union is hard because not every member of buying. There is no excuse for central Government and the Union places the same value on animal welfare as Government agencies. we do. As we have mentioned, that means that standards in the UK are significantly above those of many of our Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Does that not go competitors, and it also means that the costs incurred to the heart of the matter? The new draft standards for by our farmers are higher. It is not right that our the Government’s healthier food mark still assert that farmers should be at a competitive disadvantage for those bulk-buying products have been subject to doing the right thing. “high standards of animal welfare”, We need to do more than simply employ sticks to despite the fact that we are still using battery eggs and beat our farmers if they do not comply; we should also factory-farmed pork and chicken. offer a carrot, rewarding and encouraging them for leading the way on animal welfare. What better way to do that than by using taxpayers’ money to buy their Tim Farron: Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes an produce? extremely good point and it leads us on to what we need There should be an enforced code of conduct across to do to support those farmers at home and—dare I say all Departments and the wider public sector, including it?—abroad, who are doing the right thing. The hon. the NHS, quangos and other Government agencies and Member for Sunderland, South correctly stated that if arm’s length bodies. It should include criteria for we back humane egg producers and, indeed, humane procurement that ensure that food is sourced locally farming of all kinds, we shall see an increase in the size from within the UK and from producers who comply of that sector and in its economic health, which will with the highest animal welfare standards. I urge the lead to economies of scale and drive down costs. That is Minister to confirm that he will agree to institute and tremendously important. enforce such a code as a matter of urgency. The Government say that they back animal welfare standards at a high level, but when it comes to putting 11.30 am their money where their mouth is, they fall well short. Mr. James Paice (South-East Cambridgeshire) (Con): They do not take the lead, which is what we expect of a I am slightly disappointed that there has not been more Government, yet this is a matter in which it is quite interest in the debate from hon. Members on both sides 211WH Farm Animal Welfare3 NOVEMBER 2009 Farm Animal Welfare 212WH of the House, although we are obviously all conscious battery cages from 1 January 2012. Working backwards of the pressure on Members’ diaries. None the less, I from that date, and bearing in mind the lifespan of a congratulate the hon. Member for Sunderland, South chicken, we can see that the eggs from which the last (Mr. Mullin). In former times, when he was a DEFRA batch of chickens in cages will hatch will be set to Minister, he and I debated some of the issues before us, incubate next spring, so we are not far away—one or and I know how strongly he feels about them. I do not two other things may hatch next spring, but we shall see. think that there is anybody in the House who is not The eggs will be incubated next spring, and the pullets enthusiastic about improving animal welfare—the issue will grow up and be put into cages about this time next is how we go about ensuring that we have genuine year. They will be the last batch to go into battery cages. improvement, rather than something that simply salves The time scale is therefore tight, and I am already our conscience by letting us think that we are doing concerned about two things. First, quite a lot of British something about the issue. producers have not yet invested in alternative systems, At the start, I want to pick up one of the points that and they are going to find life very difficult. Many of the hon. Gentleman made. At one stage in his speech, them have been to see me, as I am sure they have been to which I endorse and support, he seemed to confuse see the Minister, to press for derogations. Personally, I sustainability and welfare with the health issues raised am not particularly supportive of derogations, because by the quality of one’s diet. It would be unwise to imply there has been plenty of notice, but—this is a big but, that eating caged eggs, for example, was any less healthy and it prompts my request to the Minister—producers than eating free-range or any other eggs. One can make are now telling me that a number of countries actually all sorts of arguments for not buying caged eggs, but we have derogations, Poland being one example. I hope must be careful not to imply that they are any less that the Minister will be able to give us details of the wholesome. Indeed, perversely, they are probably slightly derogations that the EU has granted to allow some safer if anything, because it has been shown that the countries to continue using conventional cages, because level of salmonella in them is considerably lower than in such measures will fly completely in the face of attempts free-range eggs. That is an issue, and we have to be to raise standards. That will mean, given the single careful not to mislead the consumer. market, that we will still be able to import eggs produced Before I address public procurement, there is another in conventional cages, and our producers, who will have animal welfare issue that we have to consider. When we made the necessary investments, will be at risk of being introduce measures and pass regulations in this country, undercut. This is therefore a serious issue, and I hope we have to be certain that we are not simply exporting that the Minister can address it. My view is that there lower standards to other countries. We did that in the should be no derogation and that animal welfare should pig industry in 1992—I say this as a former member of be improved across the whole EU at a particular stage a Conservative Government—when we banned stalls to minimise unfair competition. and tethers. There was massive support for that, but it is As the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire one reason why our pig industry has halved in size since (Mr. Williams), who has just left the Chamber, said, a then. The ban is not the only reason why that happened, significant amount of egg is brought into the country in and it would be wrong to blame it alone, but it put powdered or liquid form. Quite a lot comes from the something like 5p per kilo on the cost of finishing pigs. United States, and it also comes from elsewhere in the It was quite a serious issue, but we almost certainly did world. I am not suggesting that it will be easy to deal nothing at all for pig welfare, because the industry with the issue, and I do not know whether such products simply moved to countries that continued to use stalls have the levels of traceability that we would like, but it is and tethers. The EU has now taken steps to ban tethers, a pretty clear bet that they will be from caged eggs, which is welcome, but the measures are not in place yet, which will be a significant part of the cost of production. so we are, as the hon. Member for Westmorland and Let me move on to the labelling of food before trying Lonsdale (Tim Farron) said, importing large quantities to draw the different threads together. The House has of pigmeat produced from pigs kept in stalls and, been debating food labelling for many years, and certainly indeed, tethers. We have not, therefore, helped the welfare since the era when the changes in pig welfare that I of pigs overall, even though we might have done something, mentioned were made. Governments have frequently as I suggested earlier, to salve our conscience. said that they are working with industry to improve things, but as Conservative party studies have Mr. Mullin: The hon. Gentleman is making a perfectly demonstrated—we referred to this earlier this year—the reasonable point, but I urge him not to be too hard on public are clearly still being misled. People will say that the measure that his Government introduced many is unlawful and that the law bans misleading labelling, years ago. It is just possible that it was one of the things but I am not sure whether the Minister could point to that forced the generally somnambulant EU into trying any prosecutions. Public surveys in which members of to ban tethers across the region, although I appreciate the public have been shown labels show that people are that it is taking a frustratingly long time to introduce clearly confused by them. The Minister’s predecessor, the ban. the right hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Jane Kennedy), was quite struck by how deceptive labelling Mr. Paice: I am happy to accept that it may have been was when she and I did a Jamie Oliver programme one of the reasons why the EU was eventually persuaded about the labelling of pigmeat products. to apply the same rules across the whole Union. Nothing has really changed. We now find that the That brings me conveniently to the issue of eggs, on Food Standards Agency, dealing with EU regulations which the hon. Gentleman concentrated, and on which on the Government’s behalf, is voting against EU proposals I want to ask the Minister a couple of questions. As the that would help to clarify food labelling legislation. On hon. Gentleman said, the EU has banned conventional the DEFRA website, we read: 213WH Farm Animal Welfare3 NOVEMBER 2009 Farm Animal Welfare 214WH

[Mr. Paice] are not very good: just 28 per cent. of its poultry meat, 87 per cent. of its mutton and lamb and 15 per cent. of “The Food Standards Agency…advises that if meat is described its bacon are of UK origin. In the Department for as British it should be made clear where the animal was reared Children, Schools and Families just 33 per cent. of and slaughtered and where processing took place”. poultry meat, 9 per cent. of beef, 0 per cent. of mutton, Frankly, that is not good enough. If meat is described lamb and bacon, and 6 per cent. of pork are of UK as British the animal should have been born, reared and origin. Those are horrendous figures. slaughtered in this country. There should be no scope What should be done about that? Mention has already for misleading people about that, which is why my party been made of the little red tractor, and I make no has committed itself to legislation—although our campaign apologies for the fact that we believe it is completely has been so successful that a large number of supermarkets, wrong and immoral to spend British taxpayers’ money including Tesco, have voluntarily set about altering a lot buying food that is produced to standards that would of their labelling. We are obviously very pleased about not be allowed in this country, because Parliament has that. set rules about how farmers must produce food. We can That approach is essential, because the only way the argue about the adequacy of those rules, and the hon. consumer can exercise choice, whether on price, welfare Member for Sunderland, South and I may differ slightly standards, country of origin or anything else, is by on that point, but the fact is that we have passed laws being correctly and properly informed about what is about welfare standards in this country, and we import available, and sure of buying what they think they are meat that may not meet those standards. That is buying. Once that has been got right, there is an opportunity unacceptable and immoral, and it should change, which for the industry to market its wares and exploit the is why all public procurement contracts must be moved higher welfare standards and, indeed, to be negative towards requiring farm assurance—little red tractor— about the standards of some imports. It is for the standards. I know that we cannot insist that the food industry, not Government, to grasp that opportunity, should have that mark, because that could be construed but Government should create the framework that enables as insisting on UK provenance, but we can ensure that it to happen. the food is produced to the same standards. That is the The debate is about public procurement, and as the best way forward, and it is why we are committed to result of much pressure in the past few years the that approach for all central Government budgets. We Government are moving in the right direction on that are currently considering how to extend it through the issue. It would be churlish of me to deny that. However, devolved area of schools and hospitals. We believe, I do not think that they have a great deal to be complacent because of our principles of localised decision making, about, because there is a long way to go. I shall refer to that they should make their own decisions. some figures in a moment, but it is important to note The hon. Member for Sunderland, South and other that when comparing Departments one is dealing with Members referred to the good examples of public bodies, widely differing budget levels, and it is necessary to be a such as schools, some hospitals and at least one or two bit careful. I found one table on the Department’s local authorities, which have gone about doing what we website, headed “Comparison of average total percentages would all probably propose, demonstrating that, contrary of commodities of UK origin”. It gives the total average to the argument constantly put forward by central of each commodity—meats, vegetables and so on—for Government that we must bulk-buy because it is so 2006-07 and 2007-08, and demonstrates a 2 per cent. much cheaper—I do not blame the present Government increase on the total average. It is an average of averages, uniquely—when devolved power is driven down to local and I know that you, Mr. Key, are wise enough not to bodies, those bodies can procure food just as cheaply, take too much notice of averages of averages. It is fairly and probably to a higher standard. meaningless, and, when one adds to that fact the massive There are many good schools in my constituency, but difference between the budgets of Departments, clearly, I want to mention St. Mary’s primary school in the city averaging averages is even more absurd. of Ely, which took responsibility for its catering back The same website has a table of contracts specifying from the county school food service. It gave the budget certain objectives. The total value of food provided to the school cook—none of this arty-farty food technician under catering contracts for the Department for nonsense—and she goes out and buys food locally. It International Development, for example, was just may not always be of local provenance, but it is good £280,000—one of the lowest amounts. For the Prison quality food. She has substantially increased the uptake Service the value was £1.72 million. For the Ministry of of school meals, which are much nicer. The quality is Defence, obviously, the figure was considerably more, good and the cost is no more than it was under the old and for the NHS it was several million pounds. Thus centralised system. It is excellent, and I go there at least 100 per cent. of one Department’s food budget would, once a year to have lunch with the children. Other in the wider context of public procurement, mean nothing schools are following suit, and indeed another Ely by comparison with the budgets of the big Departments. school asked St. Mary’s for support with its catering, That leads me to some percentages. If we consider because of that success. some individual commodities—concentrating on the There are countless other relevant examples. The animal foods sector, because we are debating welfare—we county of Cornwall, which I accept is run by a different find that just 15 per cent. of poultry meat for the party from mine, has done a great deal to source Cornish Ministry of Defence is of UK origin. The figure is 0 per food for its requirements; it can be done. However, it cent. for bacon, and 19 per cent. for mutton and lamb. can be done only with a dramatic change of mindset Those figures are atrocious, and they are percentages of among bureaucrats at all levels, so that they say “Let’s a very large budget. I quoted the figures pertaining to devolve and give responsibility to the people in charge, DFID’s very small budget, but actually even its percentages who will actually prepare the meals.” In that way we 215WH Farm Animal Welfare3 NOVEMBER 2009 Farm Animal Welfare 216WH shall make substantial strides towards ensuring, as everyone to designate the improved status of those hens. That has said, that the £2 billion of taxpayers’ money that is will aid enforcement and create an improved economic being spent really creates the example we expect others environment for those producers that have already to follow. converted. I accept what was said by the hon. Member for 11.48 pm South-East Cambridgeshire, my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South, and others on clearer labelling The Minister of State, Department for Environment, generally. The House will know that we are working Food and Rural Affairs (Jim Fitzpatrick): It is a pleasure hard with the food industry to improve labelling in the to see you in the Chair, Mr. Key. I congratulate my hon. UK, and we are working hard within Europe on all Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) aspects of labelling—country of origin, provenance on securing this important debate, and I welcome it as and so on—for the benefit of consumers. an opportunity to outline the Government’s absolute commitment to the improvement of the welfare of On the alternatives to conventional cages, there is no animals. scientific evidence to favour one legal production system over another. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. The UK has the highest animal welfare standards Research has shown that free-range and barn systems that we have ever had; they are among the highest in the may result in higher mortality, an increased occurrence world. For example, this year we reached agreement on of painful fractures and a greater risk of feather pecking, a new regulation on the protection of animals at the cannibalism and predation than a system of enriched time of killing, as well as on an EU ban on the trade in cages. However, enriched cages offer the challenge of seal products. At home, we have introduced new legislation, allowing hens the freedom to express normal behaviour. the Animal Welfare Act 2006. Now anyone responsible The EU Commission, in its 2008 report on the welfare for an animal must take steps to ensure that its welfare of laying hens, and the Farm Animal Welfare Council, needs are met. In addition, the Welfare of Farmed which advises the Government on on-farm animal welfare Animals (England) Regulations 2007 set requirements issues, both recognise the welfare benefits of enriched in respect of general welfare, inspection, housing and cages, and they have given their support to that system feeding for all farmed animals. Enforcement action can of production. be, and is, taken against farmers who do not comply with that legislation, which is supplemented by species- Although we have been working hard to ensure that specific welfare codes. Stock keepers are required by law the supply side supports ever-higher welfare standards, to be familiar with and have access to those codes, we have also been trying to increase demand for healthier, which encourage high standards of husbandry. more sustainable food by showing leadership in the public sector. The public sector food procurement Furthermore, last autumn we ran a very successful initiative—the PSFPI—has been a driver for change. A campaign to help laying hen producers to make informed review of the PSFPI last year showed that there had business decisions. The campaign outlined the options been clear progress against its objectives, which include that will be available to them when conventional cages promoting animal welfare. However, we know that there are banned in 2012. It is vital that we work in partnership is still room for improvement, which is why we are with the agricultural sector, and we were very grateful continuing to take forward a number of initiatives. for the industry’s support for the campaign. In July, I wrote to the industry restating our commitment to the One of the key challenges raised with us by stakeholders 2012 EU-wide ban on conventional cages, but reassuring from all sides is the need for the Government to set out the industry that we would do all that we could to a consistent and coherent view of what the food system ensure that those UK producers that have already converted should look like in the future. That is why we are from conventional cages were not disadvantaged. To developing a food strategy to bring together the various that end, we pressed the Commission for an intra- elements of food policy, with the aim of setting out a Community trade ban on eggs produced by hens in vision for the food system in 2030. The part on animal conventional cages after 1 January 2012. welfare will echo the wording in the leaflet “The Future of our Farming”, published in August, which says that In response to the question asked by the hon. Member good farm businesses are those that produce high-quality for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice), let me say food to high environmental and welfare standards. that we understand that no derogations are in place. I am sure that he is right that some countries will seek The first of those elements is the healthier food mark. derogation, but one of the protections that we would For the first time, there will be a national food procurement try to put in place, if such derogations were allowed, scheme that seeks to combine both nutritional and would be to say, “Okay, you can perhaps ring-fence, sustainability criteria. More than 60 public sector temporarily, but you can’t export any products.” That organisations volunteered to be part of the first phase would keep up the pressure. It would also give our of the pilots. The healthier food mark includes two producers some solace to know that they will not be criteria that address the issue of animal welfare. The disadvantaged. As the hon. Gentleman knows, those first criterion, which aims to ensure that discussions are ongoing. “100 per cent. of meat and meat products are farm assured…as a We have also pressed the Commission to introduce welfare minimum”, into the EU egg marketing regulations a code 4, to has been included in the list of proposed criteria for the signify eggs produced by hens housed in enriched cage healthy food mark. Public sector food procurers are not systems—those required to have nest boxes, litter, perch restricted to sourcing produce from the UK. Indeed, space and claw shortening devices—so as to differentiate everyone will be aware that they are legally required to those eggs from conventional cage eggs, which remain ensure that tenders are open to all suppliers. However, classified as code 3. That will be an additional protection by including that criterion we are ensuring that meat 217WH Farm Animal Welfare3 NOVEMBER 2009 Farm Animal Welfare 218WH

[Jim Fitzpatrick] are talking about a moveable feast, If you will excuse the pun, Mr. Sheridan, and it is moving in the right and meat products procured by the public sector meet direction—the direction that my hon. Friend wants us UK animal welfare standards, which in many respects to take. go beyond EU minimum legal requirements. The second animal welfare criterion being considered [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] as a potential entry on the healthier food mark list is the The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire aim of having (Mr. Williams), who is not in his place, asked about egg “100 per cent. of eggs…sourced from systems which do not use products as well as eggs. The healthier food mark pilots conventional cages.” will be asked to consider that issue, and will extend Owing to stakeholders’ concerns about the number of beyond eggs. criteria, that is only listed as a potential criterion; we consider that the impending ban on the use of conventional Mr. Mullin: My hon. Friend makes a powerful case cages will drive the outcome. for the direction of travel that the Government have taken over the years. May I ask him to address the In February 2008, we issued a notice to all public question of compulsion versus voluntary codes? That sector contracting authorities to alert them to the ban was one of the main points that I was trying to make. on conventional cages from January 2012. The purpose of the alert was to enable buyers to reflect the new Jim Fitzpatrick: My hon. Friend makes an entirely regulations in forthcoming contracts, and that, in part, valid point. I know that his position is that we should answers the question of the hon. Member for South-East travel down the route of compulsion. He is correct to Cambridgeshire about lead-in times and the ability of say that I am trying to make a case for the good producers and purchasers to make adjustments in respect progress that has been made, and to outline what we are of the new regulations. trying to do through encouragement. As I shall explain, The Department for Environment, Food and Rural we are trying to approach procurement in a quasi-voluntary Affairs is working with the Office of Government way, but with a clear identification of higher standards Commerce on the collaborative food procurement that can be measured by those in public procurement programme, which aims to use collaboration between positions. That is on top of measures introduced through public sector buyers to generate better value and higher the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and measures that we are quality, and to embed sustainability and animal welfare securing in the EU, through our discussions about in procurement decisions right across the public sector. cages, stalls and the rest of it. That is a multifaceted In the summer, I wrote to Ministers in every Department attempt to drive up standards by means of the carrot to ensure that they were aware of how much importance and the stick—through voluntary as well as legislative the Government attach to the higher welfare standards. measures. I shall say more about that in a moment. The I accept the points made by the hon. Member for healthier food mark will indeed be voluntary initially, South-East Cambridgeshire about averages, and I would but in 2012 we will review the scheme to see whether we not quibble with him. However, we do not want to could and should make it mandatory. camouflage the progress that has been made; in some areas, it is better than in others. None the less, we are Mr. Mullin: Is not the evidence so far that voluntary trying to address the issues and to make even better measures do not really work? I mentioned the fact that, progress. I have begun meeting other Ministers, starting so far, only 40 of 468 local authorities have gone cage-free. with those in charge of the biggest food-buying Good though that is, it is very slow progress. I come Departments, to discuss procurement issues. We will back to the evaluation to which, I think, my hon. Friend look at those who are doing well to identify how they speedily referred. That evaluation by Deloitte—if that have been able to make such progress. We will also look is what he was referring to—said that at those who are not doing so well and listen to them to “Take up of the initiative was limited”. find out what obstacles they may be encountering. We will share best practice across the Departments, and Jim Fitzpatrick: I did not mean to speed over points that will then feed down to the wider public sector. For deliberately, or not to pay them appropriate attention. example, I will examine the purchasing of the Department Like other colleagues, I anticipated there being more of Health and then move on to the NHS. Likewise, I speakers in this debate. I therefore edited my comments will examine the purchasing of the Department for to ensure that others had as much time as possible. Communities and Local Government and then move On the progress that is being made under the present on to local government, and so on, to try to ensure that infrastructure, several Members pointed out that the we can make additional progress. use of consumer power reinforces their argument that I was interested to hear the point that the hon. there has been movement when it comes to the ethos of Member for South-East Cambridgeshire made about eating and procurement. The best example is McDonald’s. his cook in Ely. One issue that has come up recently in My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South, our meetings with the Food Standards Agency and the referred to that company’s sensitivity and its position in Council of Food Policy Advisers is the fact that, because the market. The fact that McDonald’s has moved of devolved budgets, there are now some 35,000 purchasing demonstrates that it recognises public opinion. It is points within the public sector. It is possible that the getting ahead of the game, so that it can try to maintain, skill level of some of those procurement officials is not if not increase, its market share. In the marketplace, appropriate. For example, they may be great at purchasing blue-chip corporations involved in food supply are moving stationery, because that is their background, but they forward, and I shall give at least one more example of are now having to purchase food for the Department. progress in the public sector, too. That shows that we We must consider the skills set of the people in those 219WH Farm Animal Welfare 3 NOVEMBER 2009 220WH purchasing areas. The cook obviously knows exactly Thames Valley Police what she is purchasing and is making positive choices, getting better value for money and producing healthier meals. However, she probably does not represent the 12.30 pm majority; she may be a very good representative sample, but we must ensure that everyone in the public sector Mr. Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): It is a great has the appropriate skills to make the appropriate choices. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Sheridan. I secured this debate to represent the views of my Mr. Paice: I thank the Minister for what he has said. constituent, Paul Fidler, and the employees of his company, He is right that there is an issue with buyers being Wessex Recovery Ltd. I believe strongly that they have responsible for stationery, desks and everything else been the victims of a miscarriage of justice. Wessex including food. That is the problem. The person buying Recovery Ltd is owned entirely by Mr. Fidler. It was the food should be not the purchasing officer, but the formed in 1991 and since 1993 has had a contract with person responsible for preparing the food. If we drive Thames Valley police for the recovery and storage of decisions further down, we will get the benefit. light and commercial vehicles across a large part of the force’s area. In 2007, the contract ran out and operators Jim Fitzpatrick: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair tendered for the new contract with a new management point. In the exercise that I am conducting with other company, Recovery Management Services Ltd. Wessex Ministers and within DEFRA, I am trying to identify Recovery secured the contract and appears to have what is working well, and am then sharing that best proceeded with an unblemished record from Thames practice to ensure that it is as effective as possible. I Valley police and those it serves. should inform my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South, that DEFRA’s caterers have made their own On 23 February 2009, Mr. Fidler was summoned to a decision, and buy only free-range eggs and UK-sourced meeting with John Marks, the chief executive officer of meat. Again, no legislation compelled them to do that. RMSL, John Brigham, a legal adviser to RMSL, and I am talking about a private sector catering contractor Phil Newberry, the RMSL scheme manager. The meeting that is making a judgment based on what it thinks the was called by Mr. Newberry following a phone call the consumer wants. It believes that by doing what the previous Friday regarding “a contractual matter”. At consumer wants, it will sell more of its products, thus the meeting, Mr. Fidler was informed that Thames making its business more efficient. Valley police had requested the termination of Wessex Recovery’s contract and that RMSL required the suspension In conclusion, I agree with my hon. Friend on the of Wessex Recovery. RMSL said that the suspension importance of the welfare of animals in our care, and I had been requested without any explanation, other agree that there is some way to go before we can really than that there was a “problem” with Mr. Fidler—not say that we have reached the desired standards. We must with Wessex Recovery. John Marks had asked Thames do things that reflect the public appetite for change as Valley police for further explanation, such as that an well as the need for value. We must ensure that our food arrest was imminent or that there was an ongoing and farming industry moves with us to deliver the investigation concerning Paul Fidler. Thames Valley change that we all want, and the change that allows us police answered no to both questions. to work with our international trading partners for a secure, sustainable and fair food supply, now and in the RMSL considered a number of operational possibilities. future. I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this The upshot of the meeting was that Thames Valley important debate and would like to express my appreciation police would accept only certain options and had certain to all hon. Friends and hon. Members who have conditions. The first option was a share sale of Wessex contributed. Recovery Ltd by 4 pm on the same day. The second was that the company be signed over to an independent 12.5 pm person in a caretaker capacity and that Mr. Fidler provide a declaration that he would not set foot on his Sitting suspended. premises at Halfway depot, which is near the A4 between Newbury and Hungerford. Additionally, because Mr. Fidler’s house was adjacent to the depot, a new driveway was to be constructed so that he did not have to step on any ground covered by the operations of the depot. The third option was that Mr. Fidler could live elsewhere and initiate the immediate sale of his house. A further condition was that the internet protocol address for the depot’s CCTV system be made available to Thames Valley police so that it could ensure that he did not enter the premises. Mr. Fidler’s business is worth between £2 million and £4 million. It is perverse and extraordinary to ask an individual to sell a company without giving any reasons. Selling a company is not an easy business. It requires a lot of due diligence work and cannot be done within a few hours. The first thing Mr. Fidler did was to try to find out the reasons for the decision, but answer came there none. He therefore visited my surgery at the end of May 2009 to seek my assistance. 221WH Thames Valley Police3 NOVEMBER 2009 Thames Valley Police 222WH

[Mr. Richard Benyon] that Mr. Fidler should have been interviewed, and at great length if necessary. I therefore question the I first contacted RMSL by telephone and was told assertion that that it was not obliged to give me any further information. “serious consideration of all options” I followed that up with an e-mail to the chief constable had been carried out and that the decision had not been on 29 May. Her reply gave no information about why taken lightly. the decision had been taken, but said that it had not been taken lightly. I followed that up and received a I wrote to the chief constable again on 29 July to ask letter from the chief constable on 22 June that added no whether the independent investigator from the professional further information. However, she wrote to Mr. Fidler, standards department interviewed Mr. Fidler, the two setting out the reasons for the suspension of his contract. women at the centre of the allegations and the police The reasons related to two allegations of improper officers who investigated the allegation. I have had no conduct with females. response to those questions. All I heard from the chief constable, for whom I have the highest regard in all The first allegation was made by a former member of other matters, was a further assertion that the decisions staff at Wessex Recovery on 15 July 2008. Mr. Fidler were not taken lightly. She also wrote: had been arrested on 17 July 2008 and had strenuously “I am not sure that you and I will be able to take this matter denied the offence. I have no intention of going into the much further in correspondence”. details of the case. However, the more I look into it, the She seemed to leave the situation open for Mr. Fidler to more I feel that it would not have stood up to scrutiny in take legal action. However, as hon. Members know, court due to the many conflicting factors. On 4 September such legal action is expensive, especially for somebody 2008, the complainant made a further statement who has been put in a difficult financial position by the withdrawing the allegation. No charges were brought initial decision. against Mr. Fidler in respect of the incident. My next step was to consult Mr. Fidler’s local councillor, The second allegation concerned a previously unknown who also happens to be West Berkshire’s representative allegation made by a Thames Valley police scene of on the Thames Valley police authority. With Mr. Fidler’s crimes officer on 21 July 2008. The allegation related to agreement, I laid out all the facts, as I know them, for something that had occurred eight months previously in Councillor Anthony Stansfeld. He had much the same November 2007. The incident was not reported at the reaction as I did, and took matters up himself with the time and the complainant was adamant that she did not chief constable and others. However, he has hit the wish to support any proceedings against Mr. Fidler. She buffers with this investigation in the same way as I have, carried on working at the same location and in the same and I am therefore seeking the assistance of the Minister environment for many months after the alleged incident to try to unravel what has happened. and did not bring it to anyone’s attention. She said she On at least two occasions, I have said to the chief was reporting it on 21 July 2008 because she had constable that if she were to say to me that there is much become aware of the other allegation to which I have more to this matter than meets the eye and that she is referred. Mr. Fidler was not arrested or interviewed simply unable to give me the details, I cannot say that I about the allegation, no charges were brought and no would be happy, but I would be less inclined to follow statement was made. It appears that Thames Valley up the matter, as I am doing today. In our roles as police was supporting its decision on the basis of pure Members of Parliament, we are frequently visited in hearsay. our surgeries by people who give us cases that, on the At the end of her letter to Mr. Fidler, the chief surface, seem cut and dried, but bitter experience has constable wrote: shown us that there are always two sides to every “I can assure you that the approach of Thames Valley Police argument. In this case, I am only getting one side of the was not arrived at lightly, or without serious consideration of all argument and the more I investigate the matter, the options”. more I feel that an injustice has been done. When Mr. Fidler showed me this letter, it left me with I understand Thames Valley police’s concern about more questions, not fewer. After much thought, I wrote the safety of its staff and that that might require it to to the chief constable on 30 June. First, I pointed out make difficult decisions from time to time. However, I that it seems bizarre to tell the owner of a company with am worried that this decision has been taken without a large, seven-figure turnover that his options include proper investigation or regard to the rules of natural selling the company that day to another operator. As I justice in a way that shows either an organisation that is have said, the sale of a company is a complex business too risk averse, or that makes such decisions in a slap-dash that requires due diligence and all manner of contractual manner in the hope that, because it is a large organisation arrangements. and Mr. Fidler is an individual, the problem will just go At the root of the problem are the allegations. I away in due course. understand that Thames Valley police has to look seriously The more I am involved in the case, the more certain at an individual who interfaces with its staff and against I am that I wish to follow it through to some sort of whom a complaint of sexual harassment has been made. conclusion. We might get some degree of closure today However, any organisation contemplating the removal in that, on hearing these words, the Minister might of a contract that would be a devastating blow on an conclude that an investigation needs to be carried out individual, his family and his employees—in this case by an independent body or individual into the exact 65 employees—should carry out the fullest possible circumstances of the termination of the contract. At investigation. At the least, the two individuals concerned the very least, I hope that this debate will encourage in the allegations, Wessex Recovery staff and the police Thames Valley police to look very closely at its procedures. officers who dealt with the complaint should have been I simply cannot understand how any public body can be interviewed. Under the rules of natural justice, I believe prepared to remove the livelihood of an individual and 223WH Thames Valley Police3 NOVEMBER 2009 Thames Valley Police 224WH his family, and potentially the livelihood of 65 employees, Mr. Benyon: The chief constable wrote to Mr. Fidler without being prepared to give any reasons whatsoever only when I wrote to her. Does the Minister not agree for the removal of that contract. that it is a strange way of doing things to tell the I leave the Minister with two points. Wessex Recovery contract manager to terminate the contract, not giving Ltd, with its 100 per cent. shareholding by Mr. Fidler, any reason why and not giving any reason to the MP retains a contract with Hampshire police for work concerned until I contacted her and she approached similar to that which it carried out for Thames Valley Mr. Fidler? police prior to 23 February. The contract with Hampshire came up for renewal after the contract with Thames Mr. Alan Campbell: I suppose we can conclude that Valley police was suspended and, in the full knowledge however frustrated the hon. Gentleman is about the of that suspension, Hampshire police has re-awarded process, there was a written response. I shall go on to Wessex Recovery Ltd its contract. If for no other reason, how he might want to seek redress if he is not satisfied I submit that that makes Mr. Fidler’s case yet stronger. when he reflects upon how the whole process has been handled. My second point is that seven months elapsed between Mr. Fidler’s initial arrest and the decision to terminate Of course, as the chief constable made clear, Mr. Fidler the contract. Thames Valley police contacted RMSL, may wish to seek redress on the matter by obtaining gave it one working day to terminate the contract and legal advice. I understand the limitations that individuals attempted to force through a sale of the company in just might have in doing that, but nevertheless the option a few hours. However, I repeat: seven months had remains available. At the end of the day, this is a elapsed. Thames Valley police cannot have been as contractual matter; it is not a matter that the Home concerned as it now says it is if it was prepared to allow Office can get involved with in the way that the hon. seven months to elapse before it took action. Gentleman seems to be requesting. As things stand today, a cloud hangs over Mr. Fidler I want briefly to explain the limited role that the and will do so for the rest of his business life, as he has Home Office has in the important business of the to declare that he has been suspended from a contract removal, storage and disposal of vehicles on police in all future tender documents. In addition, a cloud has instructions. The removal and recovery of vehicles from been placed over his character and reputation based on roads or any land in the open air by contractors acting the flimsiest of evidence and investigation. I urge the for the police is an important day-to-day activity in all Minister to consider the level of injustice and to instigate forces. The Government and the police value the work a full and independent inquiry without delay. of the contracted recovery operators who remove vehicles on police instructions. However, the precise arrangements 12.44 pm adopted by police forces for the safe recovery of vehicles, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the including the engagement of contractors, either directly Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell): It is a pleasure or through managing agents, to carry out that work are to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Sheridan. I an operational matter for individual chief officers of congratulate the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon) police. The Home Office has no remit to become involved on securing the debate and on the way in which he has in such commercial and contractual matters and it raised what is clearly a serious and important constituency certainly cannot comment on the individual circumstances matter for him. There are strict limitations on what I am of a particular case. able to say to the hon. Gentleman today, but at least he I want to reiterate that if the hon. Gentleman’s constituent has had the opportunity to raise in Parliament what he is seeking redress on the issue of termination of the clearly believes to be a miscarriage of justice. contract and the circumstances that prevailed, he should The Home Office is responsible for setting the level pursue a legal route. Ministers cannot become involved and structure of the charges, but we cannot become in the issue and it would not be appropriate for Ministers involved in contractual arrangements between individual to comment on the way in which particular individual police forces and managing agents or vehicle removal allegations are investigated by the police or on the operators, or any police decision that leads to the suspension decisions that followed from those investigations. Those or termination of a contract with an individual recovery are matters for chief officers. operator. I cannot therefore specifically comment on There is a due process. If the hon. Gentleman believes Thames Valley police’s decision or on the specific that due process has not been followed and, if having circumstances that led to the suspension of Wessex complained to the police—I understand that he has Recovery’s contract with RMSL, which is the managing done so and that the investigations have been looked agent for the Thames Valley police vehicle recovery at—he remains unhappy with their response, his constituent scheme. may wish to refer the case to the Independent Police This is a very sensitive issue and I understand from Complaints Commission. I know that the hon. Gentleman the chief constable of Thames Valley police that the will be disappointed. force took the decision that it could no longer support the involvement of Wessex Recovery in its vehicle recovery Mr. Benyon: I am grateful to the Minister for responding scheme on the grounds of public protection and that, in to the debate, and I understand the limitations on him doing so, it carefully balanced the impact on the owner and the Home Office. I should like to put on the record of Wessex Recovery and other staff, following consideration again that I have a very good working relationship with of alternative options. I understand that the chief constable the chief constable; I hope that good relationship continues has written to the owner of Wessex Recovery to explain after today. However, the purpose of MPs, every now the reasons for the decision and that the chief constable and again, is to stand up for people whom we feel have has been engaged in detailed correspondence with the been brow-beaten by a large organisation, particularly hon. Member for Newbury on the issue. if it is a public one. There must be a method whereby 225WH Thames Valley Police 3 NOVEMBER 2009 226WH

[Mr. Benyon] MG Rover ordinary Members of the House can represent their constituents on issues such as this if they feel that an 1pm injustice has been done, rather than individuals having Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I to go through the courts themselves. am grateful for the opportunity to raise with the Minister the results of the investigation into the affairs of Phoenix Mr. Campbell: I understand that. Standing up for Venture Holdings Group, MG Rover Group and 33 other people is a key part of what Members do. The hon. companies. I am pleased to be joined by my hon. Friend Gentleman is doing that, and there is some force in his the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Steve McCabe), argument. Whether the issue concerns public organisations who has taken a close interest in the issue, and I know or not, active and committed Members of Parliament that many other hon. Members with constituencies in such as him have a right to raise these matters. However, Birmingham or the west midlands who cannot be here it is not for Ministers to second-guess decisions or to today are concerned about the issue. comment on procedures if the responsibility for those The investigation was commissioned in 2005 by the procedures, and for their investigation, lies elsewhere. If then Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, my right he and his constituent are not satisfied about the way in hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West which the contractual aspects of this case have been and Hessle (Alan Johnson), soon after the collapse of dealt with, a proper and independent view of the matter MG Rover Group at Longbridge in my constituency. could be gained by taking it to court. The investigation was headed by Gervaise MacGregor Let me address the hon. Gentleman’s concern about and Guy Newey QC. It had been set up under section 432(c) police forces. I am delighted that he has full confidence of the Companies Act 1985 and had a wide range of in his chief constable, as do I, and I am quite sure that powers and a high degree of independence, both of their respect for each other’s role will ensure that his which were important for its credibility. decision to pursue a matter that has her force at the The inquiry certainly had to look at some highly centre will make no difference to their relationship. I complex issues, but I am not alone in questioning why it repeat that it is not for Ministers to second-guess or to took more than four years to report and cost around investigate individual matters such as these. The hon. £16 million. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to Gentleman or his constituent may wish to raise the consider how we can ensure that future comparable matter with the Independent Police Complaints inquiries will be neither excessively costly, nor so long Commission and get its view. That is one of the drawn out, without compromising their independence responsibilities that we have given that body. or thoroughness. I understand that having raised the matter in the Some have suggested that much of what is in the House, the hon. Gentleman will be disappointed by the inspectors’ report had already been said or alleged response, but I hope that he will appreciate the limitations before. There is something in that, but it does not alter on us and the need to be cautious and not overstep our the fact that the their findings are significant. The responsibilities. Some of his comments have raised issues report’s 830 pages meticulously catalogue how the about the policy framework in which certain decisions companies associated with MG Rover were structured are made. If he feels it would benefit him, I shall be and then restructured and how money was moved around pleased to meet him to discuss those policy matters, between 2000 and 2005. The report is damning of the with reflection on this case. However, that offer is actions of the directors of Phoenix Venture Holdings, placed within the strict limitations of what is available the so-called Phoenix four, during that time. That they to Ministers, and the same will apply to any advice that paid themselves a lot of money during their stewardship I can offer him. of MG Rover was well know a long time before the report. I was one of those who asked questions about 12.52 pm some of those things years ago, and my criticism at that Sitting suspended. time of the Phoenix four’s largesse towards themselves is on the record. However, what is devastating about this report for the Phoenix four is not what it reveals about the amounts they paid themselves, or that they saw considerable personal gain as a desirable or justifiable consequence of building a successful company, but that personal gain—some would say greed—was their central objective from the start of the Phoenix takeover of Longbridge. That objective took precedence over the interests of MG Rover as a car maker and the interests of the employees, from whose efforts the Phoenix four benefited. I do not have time to go through all the report’s findings, or even most of them, but I will offer a flavour of some of the things it contains. It provides evidence that from the word go at least some members of the Phoenix consortium were seeking to make around £75 million for themselves, not from engineering cars, but from engineering company finances. They did not reach that target, but they got a long way towards it. 227WH MG Rover3 NOVEMBER 2009 MG Rover 228WH

The report shows how losses were locked into the trying to make a go of the company, a company that car-making business with profits going elsewhere. Despite was so important to manufacturing in the west midlands what was claimed at the time, many of those profits as a whole. were not recycled back to support the car manufacturing Let us not forget that in the circumstances we faced in business. Longbridge when BMW pulled out in 2000 it was not The Phoenix four made sure that their own stakeholdings wrong to ask BMW to consider alternatives alongside in the business brought them significant personal the deal it was proposing to do with Alchemy Partners. remuneration and the power to make decisions. The It was certainly not wrong to back the only alternative shares they distributed to their employees, however, in town when negotiations between BMW and Alchemy brought neither income, nor influence over company broke down on 28 April 2000 and Longbridge faced the decisions. The Phoenix directors still awarded themselves real prospect of closure, with the likely loss of over millions for their own sacrifice in making those employee 20,000 jobs in the west midlands and beyond. shares available. Perhaps the Phoenix four are all resigned to going down in history as greedy, but I am sure that they would Phoenix invented a range of money-spinning schemes, also want to be remembered for genuinely trying to which some people might call scams. The names were build a future for car-making at Longbridge and, when sometimes bizarre, like Project Patto or Project Lisa, that failed, finally doing the right thing by all those who and sometimes the names spoke volumes in themselves, worked for them. They do not have much credibility such as with Project Aircraft. Not all of those schemes left, but for what remains of that credibility, and because saw the light of day, but all seemed designed principally it is the right thing to do, I ask the Phoenix directors to for personal or corporate gain. Phoenix Venture Holdings’ agree to the following. First, there should be no more advisers, such as Deloitte and, to some extent, Eversheds, delays in putting money into the trust fund they set up helped to design some of those schemes, and the millions for their former employees. They say that there are still they got in fees for their trouble raises important ethical all kinds of procedural impediments causing delays questions. Perhaps even bigger ethical issues are raised nearly five years on from the closure. That may be the by the report’s revelation that one Phoenix director, case, but I say bluntly that that is their problem. They Peter Beale, chose to install a programme called “Evidence made sure that there were no impediments when they Eliminator”on his computer the day after the investigation paid themselves millions each to insulate themselves was announce in 2005. from the consequences of company failure. They now have a responsibility to their employees which they I would like to say a little more about one project, should honour without delay. Project Platinum, which established MGR Capital, the vehicle through which the former BMW loan book for The second thing concerns MGR Capital. It is unclear Rover was acquired during the Phoenix years. Acquiring where the wind-up of MGR Capital is up to, but there that loan book was the right thing to do for MG Rover are reports that there could be proceeds of between as a car company, but there are and always have been £16 million and £22 million. My understanding of the real questions about why MGR Capital was set up structure of the company is that the money could be outside the Phoenix group of companies. The result, of shared by HBOS and members of the Phoenix consortium. course, was that when the money finally came in it I say no to that. Let the proceeds from MGR Capital be would be shared between members of the Phoenix at least one positive legacy of the Phoenix years. I say to consortium and their partners at Halifax Bank of Scotland, the Phoenix consortium that it should put part of its rather than ploughed back into investment in MG share of MGR Capital’s profits towards the trust fund Rover. I and others questioned the Phoenix directors for its former employees and the rest of it into a about MGR Capital as long ago as 2003. It was also community development trust so that local people can one of the subjects on which the inspectors suggest that have a direct say in, and direct benefit from, redevelopment I, and Parliament itself, received misleading replies and of the Longbridge site and the surrounding area. information from one or more of the directors. And HBOS, the Phoenix consortium’s partner in MGR Capital, should show that the banking sector Therefore, I welcome the decision of the Business, itself is recognising some social responsibility by investing Innovation and Skills Committee to invite the Phoenix its profits from MGR Capital in the venture, too. Those directors back to Parliament to explain these things. things are unfinished business. They are things that The Phoenix four should accept that invitation. It is not could still happen, and I ask my hon. Friend the Minister good enough for them simply to rubbish the inspectors’ to do what he can to make them happen. report through their PR firm without answering the report’s central charges. If the Phoenix four have answers, 1.12 pm we all deserve to hear them, and we deserve to hear them in public and on the record. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): It is a pleasure to I was never one who joined in the backstairs briefings appear before you, Mr. Sheridan, I believe for the first against Phoenix Venture Holdings even before it signed time. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, the deal with BMW to take over Longbridge. Indeed, I Northfield (Richard Burden) for calling this debate. I criticised some of those responsible for those briefings know that he has worked assiduously for many years on because they never seemed worried that their words matters concerning the Longbridge site, first in 2000 might not only highlight genuine concerns about the when this story began, through 2005 and in the years conduct of a bunch of directors, but destabilise the since. I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for future of MG Rover itself, threatening the livelihoods Birmingham, Hall Green (Steve McCabe), who has of the thousands of MG Rover workers, from those on worked with my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, the shop floor to senior managers, who were genuinely Northfield on these matters. 229WH MG Rover3 NOVEMBER 2009 MG Rover 230WH

[Ian Lucas] and has clearly cost more than anyone would have liked. I take on board what my hon. Friend the Member for Whenever a redundancy situation occurs in any of Birmingham, Northfield said about the time that the the communities that we represent, it is extremely serious, inquiry took, and its cost. However, it was important so back in 2000 when BMW was about to divest itself of that the inquiry be independent. The difficulty from the its interests in the Longbridge site, it was entirely Government’s point of view was that interference at any understandable and explicable that the community as a stage in the conduct of the inquiry would have led to whole took the steps that it did. The hard work that was allegations that they were seeking to intervene in the done and the public support at the time for the Phoenix inquiry in some improper way. Certainly any interference consortium are evident from the report. It is against by the Government once the inquiry had been set up that backcloth that we have to consider subsequent would have been entirely inappropriate, but there are events and the actions of members of the Phoenix lessons to be learned from the situation. The position consortium. and the terms of reference of the inquiry at the time The collapse of MG Rover in 2005 reverberated not that it was set up should, perhaps, be looked at for just through communities in the west midlands but the future. across the United Kingdom. More than 6,000 people In addition to setting out the story, the inspectors lost their jobs, individual employees and families were also suggested that changes should be considered to hit extremely hard, many creditors were left with unpaid financial reporting standards and guidance to increase bills—the total was £1.3 billion—a major UK car transparency. The aim would be to help users of company manufacturer went into liquidation and many suppliers reports and accounts better to understand a company’s lost a key customer. The west midlands region was dealt financial position, including the value of assets. The a body blow, and I am sure that the impact is still being Financial Reporting Council is looking carefully at the felt today. lessons from this case. Work is under way to bring legal It was important and absolutely right that the proceedings against the relevant directors with a view to Government set up an independent inquiry to find out seeking their disqualification by the court, or their what led to the collapse. Those who were affected need offering to undertake not to be involved in the management to know the truth about what happened, because there of companies for a period of time. have been many allegations and ill-informed rumours. The report sets out in great detail—more than 800 pages, My hon. Friend referred to the trust fund. I took as my hon. Friend said—the extremely complex history questions in the House when the report was released so of events leading up to what happened in 2000 and in I know that it is a matter of profound concern to subsequent years. The report is important as a point of everyone—to Members and, more widely, the west midlands reference for people. The story is complicated and the community. The reason the trust fund was set up in the report contains a great deal of detail, but it is there for first place—at the time of the collapse of the company—was the public to see. The inspectors painstakingly studied a to assist a west midlands community that had been complex structure of 33 companies that made up the dealt a body blow, and to dispel concerns that were MG Rover Group and its parent, Phoenix Venture being expressed about what had happened before that. Holdings. They also looked closely at the role played by We all know that, until now, the trust fund has simply certain directors. not delivered in any respect. The justification that has When a company controlled by John Towers and his been provided for the trust fund’s not delivering is that fellow directors bought MG Rover from BMW in 2000, we were awaiting the outcome of the inspection report. they were welcomed by the workers, the suppliers and The report is now available. If there is to be no distribution the local community because it appeared that they or investment in the trust fund, we need to know why would save jobs and the business, but it is evident from that should be so at this stage, because the community the report that, from the outset—it was true throughout— has had to deal with the consequences for almost five they needed a joint venture partner to ensure the long-term years. Individuals have had to rebuild their lives and the survival of the business. Although there were several community has had to rebuild itself during that period. attempts to find a partner, five years later they had not It is about time that the commitment given voluntarily signed one up, and losses were accumulating, car sales in 2005 is lived up to by those who gave it. We ask no were falling and insolvency loomed. more than that individuals follow the lines that they However, it is clear that throughout that five-year outlined in 2005 and make a commitment to the community period of such difficulty for the company, the Phoenix in material terms, not just in words. directors were prospering. The so-called Phoenix four I note closely what my hon. Friend said about MGR had spent considerable time and effort designing projects Capital. The evidence we have is that funds are available to shift assets away from MG Rover to other companies in MGR Capital—it is outside the remit of MG Rover in the group owned by them, instead of using the itself and outside the remit and control of the liquidator, money to support car manufacturing. The report details but money is there. If those who had influence in MG not the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands but Rover in 2005 and when the trust fund was set up, and the millions that were paid to the individuals concerned. who now have influence relating to MGR Capital, want The inspectors found that during those five years, the to live up to the expectations that they created, they directors took should use available funds to support the community “unreasonably large, financial rewards, totalling tens of millions that my hon. Friends in the Chamber represent. That is of pounds.” a moral obligation on them. I say to my hon. Friend the Inspections of that kind take time and invariably cost Member for Birmingham, Northfield that I will do considerable sums—in this case, £16.3 million. That is anything that I can both in respect of that moral why they are so rarely deployed. The inquiry was complex obligation and to support exploration of whether any 231WH MG Rover 3 NOVEMBER 2009 232WH legal obligation is involved that would enable action to Muscular Dystrophy be taken. I will look into that on behalf of my hon. Friend and his constituents in the west midlands. The community has had to move on. Important 1.30 pm regeneration work is going on there. The Longbridge area action plan is designed to redevelop the MG Rover Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): I have called site, and my hon. Friend has been working on it with his this debate to draw attention to the need for specialist, parliamentary colleagues for a number of years. The multidisciplinary care for everyone with muscular dystrophy total project cost is £66 million, with direct Government and related neuromuscular conditions. Around 75 people funding from the Learning and Skills Council of just in my constituency and more than 60,000 people in the under £54 million. In particular, the new Bournville UK are sufferers. I have a personal interest in the matter college will deliver a much-needed boost for the Longbridge as a maiden aunt, with whom I grew up, suffered from a area with the creation of a first-class learning environment degenerative muscular condition, which left a great on a par with other LSC capital schemes. impression on me as a child. The community is rebuilding, but those who have I thank the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign for bringing benefited to the tune of millions of pounds from the the issues to my attention, and I record my gratitude to sad story of MG Rover’s collapse, which has been set the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson), who has out in so much detail, need to support the community put a huge amount of work into supporting sufferers of from which they have benefited. I call on them to do muscular dystrophy, and is chair of the all-party group everything that they can to support the community and on muscular dystrophy. to deliver on the promises they gave when MG Rover Let me set out the background. Muscular dystrophy collapsed in 2005. covers many types of conditions involving complex and progressive multi-system disorders, including 1.23 pm Duchenne muscular dystrophy, which afflicts young Sitting suspended. boys particularly, and of which there are estimated to be 100 cases in the United Kingdom, spinal muscular atrophy, myotonic dystrophy, limb girdle muscular dystrophy, facioscapulohumeral muscular dystrophy, myasthenia gravis, and more than 60 other related conditions. Muscle diseases weaken and/or waste muscles, may affect the heart and lungs, and may cause lifelong disability and/or premature death. They may be inherited or acquired, and may affect people of all ages, backgrounds and nationalities. There are no cures, and without specialist multidisciplinary care most patients experience a further reduction in quality of life and, for some conditions, shortened life expectancy. Specialist multidisciplinary care is vital, as it improves quality of life and can dramatically extend life expectancy. I was shocked to see data from the south-west showing that the mean age of death was 19 for patients with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. For similar patients in the north-east, the mean age of death was 30, and that age has since increased. That proves that it is possible for areas to make funding decisions that enable specialist care to be provided. That shocking statistic shows that we lag behind other European countries in the provision of specialist services, and it highlights the fact that in any civilised society such variances are unacceptable and are evidence of service failures that must be addressed with the utmost urgency. I pay tribute to the parents of children who are diagnosed with muscular dystrophy and related conditions, and commend them on the way in which they have campaigned for improvements in their children’s quality of life. I recently saw a moving short film produced by the Rosenfeld parents about their son—I believe that the Minister is aware of it—showing how hard it is for parents of children who are suffering from that type of muscular dystrophy to contemplate their child’s life ending prematurely before their life is extinguished. Neuromuscular specialist consultants need to be part of a multidisciplinary team with a specialist physiotherapist, a neuromuscular care adviser, and good links to respiratory 233WH Muscular Dystrophy3 NOVEMBER 2009 Muscular Dystrophy 234WH

[Mrs. Caroline Spelman] they reduce pressure on consultants’ time by providing additional information and support in clinic, as well as clinicians, cardiologists, speech and language therapists, advising patients about their overall well-being. Crucially, orthotists, rehab consultants, geneticists, orthopaedic they recognise when a planned admission is needed, surgeons, and occupational therapists. which reduces the cost and stress associated with unplanned I want to focus today on specialist care for sufferers admissions and emergencies. The south-west of England, in the west midlands, but I hope that the debate will go which has a similar population, has five NHS-funded some way towards encouraging other regions to reconsider neuromuscular care advisers. I am an advocate of local how their care services meet the needs of sufferers. I was primary care trusts being able to assess priorities in recently invited to attend a meeting of the West Midlands their regions, but that serves to show that the system in Muscle Group in Cheswick Green in my constituency. the west midlands could be better modelled. There, I met Stuart Reid, who is in his late 20s and is Unplanned emergency admissions for neuromuscular affected by Duchenne muscular dystrophy. He is an patients are not only stressful and dangerous, but hugely eloquent speaker, given all the disabilities that he must costly. Work by the public health team at the West overcome, and gave oral evidence to the all-party group’s Midlands strategic health authority has shown that in inquiry on national specialist care. I was shocked to the last financial year, my local Solihull care trust spent learn from Stuart and others how the west midlands £271,746 on unplanned emergency admissions for local fares in comparison with other areas. patients with muscular dystrophy and related neuromuscular The west midlands is fortunate to have a number of conditions. Ours is a comparatively small PCT, with a dedicated and hard-working neuromuscular clinicians, population of 200,000, so that is a significant amount including Dr. Ros Quinlivan, Dr. Helen Roper, Dr. John to spend on unplanned admissions. That is part of an Winer and Dr. Nick Davies. It also has accomplished overall £6.6 million spent in the region on unplanned respiratory clinicians, such as Dr. Dev Banerjee and emergency admissions for local patients with muscular Dr. Martin Allen. However, the level of care in the west dystrophy and related neuromuscular conditions. midlands is sub-optimal, compared with that in other The most costly emergency admissions are caused by regions. The service is overstretched, unco-ordinated, respiratory crises, cardiac problems or falls. Although and reliant on charitable funding and the good will of there will always be some emergency admissions for the lead clinicians. Clinics are overbooked, and patients patients with such complex conditions, the figure can be may have a long wait for follow-up appointments, despite greatly reduced. The Muscular Dystrophy Campaign only 50 per cent. of patients receiving specialist care. has estimated that reducing it by only half would save Patients face massive problems in trying to access PCTs more than £3 million. That is a very achievable ongoing physiotherapy, hydrotherapy or psychological target. One clinician in the region has had only a support. There are also issues with accessing speech and handful of emergency admissions in the past year out language therapy, and with funding for essential respiratory of a total of 850 patients. Clinicians’ evidence suggests equipment. Some participants at the public meeting that people are 20 times more likely to have an unplanned told me that they had to travel as far as Chester for emergency admission if they do not receive specialist specialist help. care. Vitally, wheelchair services in the region are far worse It seems to me that encouraging pooled budgets than in many other parts of the country. Birmingham would mean better and more tailored care for patients. East and North primary care trust and South Birmingham A single assessment process, incorporating both health primary care trust have admitted that children with needs and social care needs, would be a more effective muscular dystrophy must wait an average of 18 months, way of administering treatment. In such a process, an which is a long time in the life of a child suffering from individual and their carer would be given the flexibility such a condition, to receive a powered chair. That and empowerment to choose their providers. They should compares with a national average wait of 19 weeks. A be able to exercise that flexibility across the social and wheelchair for a child with muscular dystrophy is far health care divide. Many patients do not realise that more than a mobility aid. In the short film that I they are crossing a divide between two departments, but watched about the Rosenfelds’ son, Gavriel, it was clear I think that we all agree that it is high time that the that the wheelchair plays an important role in aiding system was joined up, so that people do not find that breathing and supporting the spine. there is a crack as they drop down between the two. Children and adults who are affected by these rare In January, the 17 PCTs that make up the west and progressive conditions are competing for equipment midlands specialised commissioning group will have to with patients with injuries such as leg fractures. Some decide whether to accept the recommendations of the children and adults with neuromuscular conditions are regional neuromuscular services development group to considered to have profound disabilities, and the assessment develop a co-ordinated, planned specialist service for all process requires greater knowledge and expertise than is patients affected by muscular dystrophy and related often available in local wheelchair services. That may neuromuscular conditions. I strongly endorse local health mean that people are not being properly assessed or authorities being able to take decisions for themselves offered appropriate equipment. There seems to be a and not having top-down approaches forced on them, process logjam in the provision of wheelchair services in so I welcome the fact that regions such as the north-east the west midlands that goes wider than sufferers of are providing the services deemed so necessary to sufferers. muscular dystrophy. I hope that the Minister will help I encourage the west midlands service providers to work me to unscramble that logjam. together to ensure that muscular dystrophy sufferers For the 5,000 people in the west midlands with a have access to the essential specialist care that it has neuromuscular condition, there is only one care adviser. been shown can extend their life expectancy and improve It has been suggested that care advisers are vital, because their quality of life. We know that multidisciplinary 235WH Muscular Dystrophy3 NOVEMBER 2009 Muscular Dystrophy 236WH specialist care has worked for sufferers in other areas of through to local press and the specialist press. There is the country, and we desperately need it in the west huge interest in the issue, because what is happening midlands. could be avoided. I dedicate the debate to my courageous young constituent, Stuart, who has outlived the mean life expectancy for 1.46 pm his condition and demonstrated that he has the courage to drive himself forward, keep going and even write a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health novel and come to give evidence in Parliament when, as (Ann Keen): I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for he put it—rather poignantly—to me, “I really shouldn’t Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) on securing this extremely be here by now.” important debate and, in particular, on the way in which she talked about her own family and, of course, Stuart, who is now very much in my mind. I know that 1.43 pm public discussion is particularly important to families coping with the realities of muscular dystrophy, in that Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): It is a great it raises awareness of the issues that they face. I am pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr. Sheridan. I congratulate grateful to the hon. Lady for giving the House the the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) on her opportunity to focus on the impact of muscular dystrophy contribution to a debate that is taking place across the on their lives. country. Yes, there are problems in the west midlands, The hon. Lady spoke eloquently about muscular but I would not want anyone to get the idea that the dystrophy and the devastating effect that it can have on west midlands is alone in that. I am the chair of the people living with the condition, their families and all-party muscular dystrophy group, and in August, those who care for them. In fact, both she and my hon. after some seven months of intensive inquiries, we Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson) raised produced a report that brought together professionals the issue of the ages to which people with muscular working at the highest level in neuromuscular care, dystrophy live and the differences in those ages. I cannot people doing day-to-day basic care work with those add to the description given. I should like instead to suffering from these conditions, and, in particular, the concentrate on the main thrust of the hon. Lady’s families taking care of people with these diseases. The speech by responding to her concerns and those of the truth is that we need real improvements throughout the all-party group that the national health service is failing country. the thousands of people affected by this condition. I shall give one example. The hon. Lady spoke about At this point, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Duchenne muscular dystrophy. One hundred young Member for Blaydon, who is the chair of the all-party boys will die this year—two a week—as a direct result muscular dystrophy group, and to the other members of of that disease. Because care is sporadic across the the group for their far-reaching inquiry into access to country, some will die in their teens. Thankfully, some specialist neuromuscular care. I apologise for not being will not die until their late 20s. That is a direct result of present at the meeting today: I was speaking at a the differences in care. In Denmark, however, they will conference this morning. That inquiry and its subsequent die in their mid-40s, so we have a long way to go before report have raised a number of important issues for my we can say that we are doing what is best. Department to reflect and act on. It highlights the The term “postcode lottery” has been used, but that shortcomings in existing services and makes it clear that is not how things work. We are talking about a question we need to do more to improve services for people living of luck, history and geography. If a person happens to with muscular dystrophy. live in a part of the country where someone decided, The Walton report, which is the report from the many years ago, to specialise in neurosurgery, they inquiry, is sadly only one of a series of hard-hitting might just have access to a team of people who happen reports to have highlighted the significant variations in to be linking up with another group of people who are standards of care that still exist for those living in some developing work on, for example, sickle-cell disease and areas of England and Wales. It is totally unacceptable similar conditions. that people with muscular dystrophy are not being That is not good enough. We need a strategic approach offered the full range of care and support that they and we need the development, throughout the country, need. From my many years of experience as a nurse and of specialised centres for everyone. Particularly in places community nurse before I entered the House, I know such as the south-west, people are travelling ridiculously the tremendous impact that conditions such as muscular long distances to receive the treatment that they need. dystrophy can have on patients and their families. I will Indeed, the distance that they are travelling is making not accept excuses that the problem lies with competing their condition worse. That is not the care that they priorities or with the availability of resources. should be receiving. I want to respond positively on that range of issues. The all-party group is linking up with the specialised Let me be clear: we want to ensure that people with this commissioning groups. This morning we had a meeting. condition live as well as possible for as long as possible We already have reports from 13, I think, of the groups and that they do not just live with it—suffer it—but on where they are in what they are trying to do. Some have a real life. are positive, some are negative and some are neutral. In 2005, the Government published the national service We will not let go; we will continue campaigning with framework for long-term conditions, which is a 10-year them to make the issue a priority. There is huge public plan that addresses the very issues highlighted in the support for the issue. We launched our report on report: the inequalities in access, the lack of integrated 24 August, and in the days that followed, we had at least service provision, the work force shortages and the 200 pieces of coverage across the media, from BBC 1 variable quality of care across the country. The NSF is 237WH Muscular Dystrophy3 NOVEMBER 2009 Muscular Dystrophy 238WH

[Ann Keen] they are undertaking a review of muscular dystrophy and related neuromuscular services to produce proposals based on the core NHS values of modernisation, breaking to allow PCTs to improve services. I say to the hon. down professional boundaries and creating partnerships Lady and my hon. Friend that I will now urge the between agencies. regional specialist commissioners to liaise with the all-party Achieving the standards set out in the NSF is clearly group and I will ask the national team to co-ordinate. a huge challenge for some local providers, although We are still learning about commissioning, and some others meet that challenge and tackle problems forcefully. people are more advanced than others. There are no central targets or milestones, so it will be The hon. Lady mentioned emergency admissions, for people working at the front line, who best understand and I am asking for a special study to look at the issue. local needs, to decide local priorities, and it will be for As a former community practitioner, I believe that we commissioners to commission appropriate services. will avoid emergency admissions if we invest in community care and a multidisciplinary team so that they can be as Mrs. Spelman: I am listening carefully to the Minister, effective as possible. That requires us to have really but does she agree that the situation that she describes is positive champions and real clinical leadership. precisely the problem? Muscular dystrophy does not have a target or a priority attached to it in this system of Mr. David Anderson: This morning, the all-party targets, so there is a danger that it will be given lower group heard evidence from a specialist working in the priority when providers and commissioners try to decide west midlands about the practical, day-to-day problems how to make use of resources. that arise when someone with one of these diseases goes into a normal emergency service because they have Ann Keen: I am a fan of targets and I am pleased that fallen over and broken their leg or because they have a the hon. Lady is, too. As I go on, perhaps I could offer headache, but they end up being kept in for much suggestions on the issues that she raises. longer than they need to be because their disease is not As we approach the mid-point of the NSF’s 10-year recognised. The Minister mentioned resources, but by implementation period, it is fair to say that there is no speaking to people on the ground we can see that comprehensive and detailed picture of the extent to money can be saved by giving people direct access to the which the NSF has been implemented or of the difference specialist services that they need, and that money can be that it is making to the lives of people with neurological reinvested in looking after them properly. conditions. However, there are many examples of good, innovative practice, and the successful implementation Ann Keen: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, of the NSF over the next five years will depend on our and the point was made clear to me when I had a ability to identify and disseminate that good practice, meeting with young people and their relatives in my although the NHS is not always good at looking at office some time ago. It is clear that we still have a lot of good practice and learning from it. We therefore need to work to do on getting best practice out to all clinicians. identify the champions who can support the weaker services. The group overseeing the review includes service users, carers, clinicians and the Muscular Dystrophy We have commissioned a mid-point review in 2010 to Campaign. I understand that their work will draw on a show what progress has been made towards implementation, substantial amount of the best practice that the Muscular to identify what works and why, and to lead to the Dystrophy Campaign has already promoted in the west adoption of good practice elsewhere. That will help us midlands. I can tell the hon. Lady that the moving film I all to make better decisions in the design and delivery of saw in my office made it clear that access to wheelchairs services. is absolutely crucial. I have been informed that the The all-party group and others see the development review has also looked at wheelchair access and that it and implementation of clinical standards and guidance will recommend that wheelchair provision should be a as a means to drive up quality and secure improvements. specialised service. It will also recommend that there The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence should be wider collaboration between PCTs on the is an independent body, which welcomes suggestions for issue of wheelchairs, and that wheelchairs should be future guidance from a wide range of sources, including included in the planning and commissioning of provision health care and public health professionals, patients, for those with neuromuscular conditions. carers and the general public. Health professionals are Access to a specialist multidisciplinary service is key free to use their clinical judgment and any national and and can, as the hon. Lady demonstrated, significantly international best-practice guidance to develop appropriate increase life expectancy as a result of overall care monitoring health and social care services to meet the needs of and the maintenance of services. Again, the appropriate those living with muscular dystrophy. commissioning of services is vital. I have asked the As the hon. Lady recognised, the new NHS is locally national team, through the deputy director, Steve Collins, driven and looks outwards, not upwards. It is designed to work with the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign. On dramatically to improve the quality of care and the best practice commissioning, a workshop in the new value that we get from our resources. Strengthening year would be very helpful, and Steve Collins, who is commissioning is, of course, at the heart of delivering with me today, is keen to have one. that agenda, and that is where we have been concentrating Nationally, the long-term conditions delivery and our efforts to provide leadership on this crucial issue. support team has been supporting improvements to It is important that I commend the West Midlands commissioning for the services that we are discussing. strategic health authority and the West Midlands specialised Earlier this year, the team delivered a number of regional commissioning group. In response to the Walton report, “Levers for Change” events to spread understanding 239WH Muscular Dystrophy3 NOVEMBER 2009 Muscular Dystrophy 240WH about the different mechanisms that can be used to People with muscular dystrophy and their families promote implementation of the national service framework are concerned about access to new drugs and treatments, and, where appropriate, of NICE guidance. and it is absolutely understandable that they want potential Long-term neurological conditions, and particularly treatments to become available as soon as possible. We the NSF’s quality requirements, will be referenced in a need to ensure that the quality, safety and efficiency of commissioning guide, which is under development as any potential treatment are not in doubt. We are a part of the wider long-term conditions agenda. I have world leader in health research, and I congratulate our to stress again, however, that one reason for the variations scientists, who have done so much for those with this in local services is the lack of clinical leadership on this disease. issue. We are working alongside those involved with I cannot conclude without acknowledging and thanking long-term conditions to pull together all our regional the all-party group for the Walton report. I must also clinical champions, who will work with local NHS tell Stuart, whose story has touched me today, that we organisations. will do our very best and that we will continue to work I am conscious of the time, so I want to tell the hon. to bring about improvements for people living with Lady and my hon. Friend of the Prime Minister’s muscular dystrophy. commission on the future of nursing and midwifery. I am pleased that my profession of nursing is always at Question put and agreed to. the forefront when carers and users want specialist nurses. Specialist nurses can have the time and commitment to give families, and that is one of the key issues that the 2pm commission is looking at. Sitting adjourned.

35WS Written Ministerial Statements3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

would apply both to old third pillar measures being re-presented Written Ministerial as first pillar measures, and to the decision on the establishment of the Committee on internal security (COSI). Ministers also broadly agreed guidelines for the European Statements External Action Service (EAS) for approval at the European Council, but noted that full details of the EAS would be Tuesday 3 November 2009 provided by the high representative for consultation once the treaty had entered into force. Baltic Sea Strategy TREASURY Ministers adopted conclusions endorsing an EU strategy for the Baltic Sea region, which the Government support. Tax Information Exchange (The Bahamas) AOB: Climate change The presidency debriefed Ministers on the use of EU demarches to lobby 115 countries on climate change The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen ahead of the UN climate change conference in Copenhagen. Timms): A The issue would also be discussed at EU summits with Tax information exchange agreement (TIEA) was signed third countries, including those with the US, China and with the Commonwealth of The Bahamas in Nassau on India, in the run-up to Copenhagen. My right hon. 29 October 2009. Friend the Foreign Secretary supported these efforts, The text of the TIEA has been deposited in the and highlighted the publication in the UK of the “four Libraries of both Houses and made available on HM degree” map, which looks at the implications across the Revenue and Customs’ website: www.hmrc.gov.uk. The board of a four degree temperature rise. It showed that text will be scheduled to a draft Order in Council and climate change was a foreign policy issue with serious laid before the House of Commons in due course. implications, including for security. EXTERNAL RELATIONS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE The full text of all conclusions adopted can be found General Affairs and External Relations Council at: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/ docs/pressdata/en/gena/110805.pdf The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): The General Affairs and External Relations Council (GAERC) was Iran held on 26-27 October in Luxembourg. My right hon. High representative Solana briefed Ministers on latest Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and developments on the nuclear issue. My right hon. Friend Commonwealth Affairs and I represented the UK. the Foreign Secretary, with support from several member The agenda items covered were as follows: states, said that the EU needed to be ready to take GENERAL AFFAIRS action. He also gave an update on the detention and The full text of conclusions adopted, including ‘A’ trial of a local member of British Embassy staff. points, can be found at: Western Balkans http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms data/docs/ The presidency debriefed Ministers on the joint EU-US pressdata/en/gena/110776.pdf initiative to make progress on blocked reform priorities Preparation of the 29-30 October European Council in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Government fully The October European Council agenda covered support this initiative. economic and financial issues, climate change and Afghanistan/Pakistan institutional issues. The presidency introduced an action plan for enhancing On economic and financial issues, my right hon. EU engagement in Afghanistan and Pakistan, which all Friend the Foreign Secretary strongly supported the Ministers welcomed. The Commission welcomed President need for the European Council to deliver a message on Karzai’s agreement to the second round of elections, jobs and growth. which has since been cancelled. It hoped that the EU On climate change my right hon. Friend the Foreign election observation mission (EOM) would have at least Secretary noted that, with Copenhagen only 40 days 100 observers and 150 support staff, but would welcome away, we needed to agree a strong EU position to support locally. maintain the international momentum in negotiations. In particular, we needed to give a credible range of The presidency and High Representative Solana both figures on global public finance. stressed the importance of getting the EUPOL police training mission up to full strength. The presidency On institutional issues, the presidency and the Czech challenged member states to increase their contribution Republic briefed Ministers on the latest developments before the next Council. concerning the Lisbon Treaty. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary noted that we were broadly content I underscored the importance of a unified EU and with the substance of the presidency’s Lisbon Treaty broader international effort, going well beyond military implementation report, but he stressed two points: engagement alone. The new EU strategy was robust but first, that Governments needed time to consult their national it needed firm action and resources behind it. I welcomed Parliaments on some of the decisions which would need to be the Commission’s decision to organise the EOM for the taken to implement the Lisbon Treaty; second round; underscored the importance of a strong secondly, that it must be clear, for the avoidance of doubt, that EU presence and offered UK support; and announced the UK and Ireland’s Justice and Home Affairs opt-in protocol that the UK would deploy four more policemen to 37WS Written Ministerial Statements3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

EUPOL from January 2010. I also offered the UK’s Sahel: setting the EU’s intention to develop a new strategy; support to Spain in its preparations for the next Yemen: adopting an EU action plan; EU-Pakistan summit in 2010. Human rights dialogue with Indonesia. Ministers adopted conclusions that welcomed the decision of the Independent Election Commission (IEC) to hold a second round in the presidential elections; HOME DEPARTMENT committed to redeploying the EOM to observe the second round; expressed concern about the security Migration (Bulgarian and Romanian Workers) situation in Pakistan, while supporting the Government in their fight against terrorism; set out the main aspects of the EU action plan; and called for implementation of The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil the plan without delay. Woolas): I am today confirming that the restrictions on working in the United Kingdom currently applied to Middle East Peace Process Bulgarian and Romanian nationals will continue until The presidency and High Representative Solana the end of 2011. introduced a discussion of the MEPP which highlighted I announced on 18 December 2008 that these restrictions the importance of launching negotiations between the would remain in place subject to a review of the position parties and the need for the EU to remain focused on its by the end of 2009. I have re-examined the case for contribution to implementation of a future peace agreement. continuing those restrictions. The Government remain Sri Lanka committed to the principle of free movement of workers The presidency and Commission expressed concern within the European Union and acknowledge the benefits over the serious humanitarian situation. Member states that intra-EU migration brings to the UK both as an shared this concern. I noted that while there had been exporter of British workers to other member states and some progress with increased numbers leaving the camps as a result of the role of migration from other member recently this needed to be sustained. Member states also states in meeting labour shortages in important sectors expressed concern about the human rights situation in of the UK’s economy. general, including freedom of the media. However, the Government have chosen a gradual The conclusions reflected these concerns and called approach to Bulgarian and Romanian workers’ access on the Government of Sri Lanka to allow internally to the UK’s labour market. Given the current labour displaced persons to return to their homes as soon as market situation, it is important that we continue to possible and to allow improved access for humanitarian give weight to the need to protect the interests of the agencies. resident workforce. In March of this year, we accordingly tightened resident labour market testing requirements AOB: Moldova for non-EEA workers seeking admission under tier 2, The presidency reported on the 15-16 October troika and the entry criteria for those coming under tier 1, of meeting with Moldova. Several member states supported the points-based system. I have concluded that, in the a package of EU measures to the new Moldovan light of these considerations, the current restrictions Government: applied to Bulgarian and Romanian workers should financial assistance, pushing ahead with a dialogue on visas, continue. moving ahead with negotiations on a deeper association agreement The annual quota for the seasonal agricultural workers and a deep free trade deal. The Commission said that it was looking at macro-financial assistance. scheme (SAWS) will remain at 21,250 places for 2010 and 2011 and the annual quota for the sectors-based The presidency concluded by welcoming these ideas. scheme (SBS) for the food processing sector will remain The Government support an ambitious programme of at an annual level of 3,500 places for 2010 and 2011. I EU engagement and assistance with the new Government. will refer the question of the quota level for the SAWS AOB: Somalia to the Migration Advisory Committee if evidence emerges This item was dropped from the agenda. to suggest that it is inappropriate. AOB: Freedom of Religion The current restrictions may be extended for a further two years beyond the end of 2011 on the basis of Italy called for the EU to take a more consistent and serious labour market disturbance. Any decision to active role in protecting religious freedom, and requested extend the restrictions will be informed by a further conclusions at the November GAERC. The presidency evidence-based review of the position. undertook to consider the request and revert. EU-Indonesia In the margins of the Council my right hon. Friend JUSTICE the Foreign Secretary signed an EU partnership and co-operation agreement with Indonesia. Northern Ireland Court Service “A” Points The Council adopted conclusions or decisions, without The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor discussion, on: (Mr. Jack Straw): The Northern Ireland court service approval for signing the EU-Syria association agreement; main estimate for 2009-10 includes £64.5 million in Uzbekistan, focused on human rights, but lifting the remaining respect of legal aid, intended to enable the Northern EU sanctions (an arms embargo); Ireland Legal Services Commission (NILSC) to discharge Guinea: imposing an arms embargo and travel ban on regime legal costs and meet its administration costs during members in Conakry; 2009-10. Expenditure on legal aid in 2009-10 is forecast Great Lakes: focusing on humanitarian situation in the East; to significantly exceed existing provision because the 39WS Written Ministerial Statements3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

NILSC is dealing with a high volume of very high-cost supplementary from the hon. Member for Blackpool, criminal cases and a higher level of civil and criminal North and Fleetwood, Mrs. J. Humble, I said: business. Accordingly, Parliamentary approval for additional “My hon. Friend is right, and we must ensure that we also help resources of £20,000,000 will be sought in a winter young people who have different disabilities and need additional supplementary estimate for the Northern Ireland court help with different ways into work. She may also be interested to service. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated know that the proportion of disabled people in work has increased by about seven per cent., to more than 50 per cent., in the past at £20,000,000 is being met by a repayable cash advance eight years, so for the first time there are more disabled people of from the contingencies fund. The additional resources working age in work than there are out of work—precisely will enable the NILSC to discharge its statutory obligation because of the kind of programme that my hon. Friend talks to meet bills within the provision available to it. about”—Official Report, col 630. Arrangements have been put in place to ensure that very high-cost cases are paid in a timely manner. There The correct answer is as follows: is a programme of reform aimed at reducing the cost of criminal legal aid and delivering reform to civil legal aid “My hon. Friend is right, and we must ensure that we also help which will control cost and target funding on priority cases. young people who have different disabilities and need additional help with different ways into work. She may also be interested to know that the proportion of disabled people in work is now WORK AND PENSIONS 47.5 per cent. compared with 42 per cent. ten years ago and over half of working age disabled people are now in work or claim to Correction to Oral Answer be actively seeking employment—precisely because of the kind of programme that my hon. Friend talks about.” The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Yvette Cooper): During Department for Work and Pensions I apologise to the hon. Lady for these inadvertent oral questions on Monday 19 October, in response to a errors.

795W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 796W

under the Criminal Damages (Compensation) Written Answers to (Northern Ireland) 1977 Order were received from the Gaelic Athletic Association in each of the last five Questions years. [297336] Paul Goggins: The information is as follows. Tuesday 3 November 2009 The Gaelic Athletic Association Number

2004-05 2 WALES 2005-06 0 Departmental Postal Services 2006-07 0 2007-08 0 2008-09 7 Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 to date 2 Wales which companies are under contract to his Total 11 Department to provide mail services; and when each such contract expires. [296090] It is possible that there are other claims relating to GAA property within the Compensation Agency’s records Mr. Hain: The Wales Office has mail service contracts which could not be identified and which are not included with Royal Mail and Government Car and Despatch in the above table. Agency. In cases relating to GAA property claims are usually Departmental Visits Abroad submitted in the name of trustees who are the legal owners of the property which has been damaged. The trustees’ name does not always make reference to the David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for GAA and the Compensation Agency’s computer database Wales how much his Department spent on overnight does not therefore identify these as GAA claims. Since accommodation for (a) Ministers and (b) officials 2008-09 the Compensation Agency has kept a separate while overseas in each of the last three years. [294691] manual record of claims relating to GAA property. Mr. Hain: My Department has spent the following on Inquiries overnight accommodation while overseas in each of the last three years: Mr. Paterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what expenditure his Department £ has incurred to date on (a) the Saville Inquiry, (b) the Ministers Officials Robert Hamill Inquiry, (c) the Rosemary Nelson 2006-07 0 0 Inquiry and (d) the Billy Wright Inquiry. [297117] 2007-08 83.86 899.72 2008-09 0 0 Mr. Woodward: Expenditure by the Northern Ireland Office to the end of September 2009 on funding the public inquiries is as follows:

NORTHERN IRELAND £ million

Cannabis Bloody Sunday Inquiry 1153 Robert Hamill Inquiry 28 Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Rosemary Nelson Inquiry 43 Northern Ireland how many people of each nationality Billy Wright Inquiry 28 have been charged with cultivating cannabis in 1 In addition, £36 million has been paid by the Ministry of Defence in relation Northern Ireland in each of the last 24 months. to the inquiry. [297169] Prisoners

Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Northern Ireland how many cannabis factories have for Northern Ireland what the average number of been discovered in Northern Ireland in each of the last prisoners being held in each prison in Northern Ireland 24 months. [297170] was during September (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009. [297124] Paul Goggins: These are operational matters for the Chief Constable. I have asked him to reply to the hon. Paul Goggins: The average number of prisoners held Member directly, and I will arrange for a copies of the in each prison is provided in the following table: letters to be placed in the Library of the House. Number Criminal Damage Compensation Scheme Hydebank Total September Maghaberry Magilligan Wood Average Mr. McGrady: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 813 405 245 1,463 Northern Ireland pursuant to his answer of 19 October 2008 859 449 249 1,557 2009, Official Report, columns 1215-16W, on Criminal 2009 816 404 235 1,455 Damages Compensation 1997, how many applications 797W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 798W

OLYMPICS Huw Irranca-Davies: The Forestry Commission maintains Olympic Games 2012: Housing comprehensive records of the forests it manages including area, species, age, growth rates and intended management. John Mann: To ask the Minister for the Olympics This data is used to create and update its forecasts of how many Olympic Village flats she expects to have future production. been pre-sold before August 2012. [292516] Current estimates are that the public forest estate in England will produce 1.4 million cubic metres of timber Tessa Jowell: As announced in June, agreement has per annum over the next 10 years and that to harvest been reached for the sale of 1,379 affordable homes in significantly more would not be sustainable. the Olympic Village development to Triathlon Homes In addition to this, other wood material, for example, LLP. from small sized coppice or harvesting residues, can be Given the current uncertainty in the property market, chipped and used as biomass. No precise data is available the sales and marketing strategy for the sale of remaining on the quantities involved. homes continues to be developed. A precise figure for more pre-2012 sales of homes is therefore not yet available. Further information on the production and use of biomass and timber is included in the Commission’s Forestry Statistics booklet. The 2009 edition has just been published and I have arranged for a copy to be SCOTLAND placed in the Library of the House. Departmental Homeworking British Waterways Board: Finance David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of the staff seconded to his Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Department have been authorised to work from home Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what in the last 12 months. [297735] expenditure his Department has incurred on British Ann McKechin: No staff in the Scotland Office formally Waterways in the last 10 years; and what revenue has work from home. been generated by British Waterways from projects and programmes supported by such expenditure in that period. [296864] ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Huw Irranca-Davies: The grant in aid provided to Agriculture: Subsidies British Waterways from DEFRA over the past 10 years is summarised as follows: Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many £ million single payment scheme claims made in (a) 2008, (b) 2007, (c) 2006 and (d) 2005 remain outstanding; and 1999-2000 59 if he will make a statement; [297663] 2000-01 64.9 (2) by what date he expects the Rural Payments 2001-02 61.6 Agency to have completed payments against Single 2002-03 71.6 Farm Payment Scheme claims made in (a) 2008, (b) 2003-04 76.6 2007, (c) 2006 and (d) 2005; and if he will make a 2004-05 59.1 statement. [297664] 2005-06 62.6 2006-07 55.5 Jim Fitzpatrick: The following table sets out the 2007-08 55.5 number of outstanding claims under the Single Payment 2008-09 161.6 Scheme (SPS) for scheme years 2005 to 2008 inclusive. 1 Includes £5 million brought forward from 2010-11. Source: Claims outstanding as at 30 October 2009 DEFRA internal figures. Single Payment Scheme year Number British Waterways spends DEFRA grant in aid on 2005 3 maintaining and operating the waterways network rather 2006 6 than on specific projects or programmes. British Waterways 2007 43 receives income from maintaining and operating the 2008 105 waterways such as utility wayleaves, boat mooring charges Total 157 and licence fees. It also receives income from its commercial activities including its property portfolio and funding Most of the 157 SPS claims remaining to be paid from third parties for specific restoration and regeneration involve probate or legal issues, for which information is projects. Total income and funding from third parties required from external parties. It is therefore not possible over the last 10 years is summarised as follows: to predict when these payments will be made. Some claims may not receive a payment. £ million Direct income Third party funding Biofuels 1999-2000 47.2 51.5 David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000-01 62.3 66.6 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent 2001-02 66.2 32.0 estimate the Forestry Commission has made of the 2002-03 77.5 27.7 future availability of biomass from forests managed by 2003-04 80.5 18.4 the Commission. [296653] 2004-05 85.2 17.5 799W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 800W

EU fisheries in 2020 and presents ideas for making the £ million Vision happen. Member states are asked to respond to Direct income Third party funding the Green Paper and send these to the Commission by 2005-06 92.3 16.4 the end of 2009. We are in the process of developing a 2006-07 108.9 15.9 full UK response. 2007-08 100.1 48.5 The UK agrees with the main elements of the Vision 2008-09 108.1 35.3 which include recovered fish stocks, fish stocks exploited Source: British Waterways. at sustainable levels, a financially robust industry, fishers Camels more involved in technical decision making, better compliance with the rules and improved fisheries governance Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for across the globe. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what regulations The UK has similarly laid its own vision for future govern the on-farm burial of (a) camelids and (b) fisheries—“Fisheries 2027” which is closely aligned with companion sheep or cattle. [297027] the Commission’s Vision. Since then the UK has set out clearly the key elements of that Vision, specifically at Jim Fitzpatrick: On-farm burial has been banned the May Council of Fisheries Ministers. These key since 2003, when it was introduced as part of a wider set elements are: of controls on animal by-products by the EU Animal fish stocks within safe biological limits; By-products Regulation 1774/2002. This Regulation is a prosperous and efficient fishing industry; implemented in England by the Animal By-Products recognition of the contribution of fishing to local communities; Regulations 2005, and by similar legislation in the rest and of the UK. The ban applies to both camelids and fisheries management integrated with marine conservation. companion sheep or cattle. Ecological sustainability should be at the heart of Scientific evidence shows that the degradation process delivering that Vision. essential to ensure reduction of BSE/TSE infectivity cannot be guaranteed by burial. Even after burial scrapie Departmental Postal Services infected material can persist in the soil for years and present a source of infection. Improper burial can also Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for cause pollution problems and lead to the spread of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which other diseases that threaten animal and public health. companies are under contract to his Department to provide mail services; and when each such contract Coal Fired Power Stations expires. [296078]

Mr. Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Norris: DEFRA’s mail services are provided by Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many the Royal Mail. This arrangement is in place until end tonnes of coal were held in stock at each coal-fired March 2011, pending retendering of the pan-government power station in (a) January and (b) June 2009; and framework arrangements operated currently by Buying how many days supply of coal each figure represents. Solutions. DEFRA will consider its arrangements with [296482] the Royal Mail in light of this exercise.

Mr. Kidney: I have been asked to reply. Departmental Public Expenditure Data on coal stocks held at individual power stations Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for are commercially sensitive. However we have figures for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his total stocks held at generators. At the end of January Department is taking to implement the efficiency 2009, 13.3 million tonnes of coal were held at UK recommendations of the Operational Efficiency electricity generators and at the end of June 2009 programme relating to his Department; and what 18.3 million tonnes were held. training is available to (a) Ministers and (b) officials These stocks represent theoretical supplies for 63 days in his Department in respect of the delivery of value and 86 days respectively. The number of running days is for money savings. [296008] for illustrative purposes only and assumes the power station would be operating continuously throughout Dan Norris: DEFRA has adopted a three stage approach the period. In reality plants are unlikely to operate to achieving costs reduction savings under the Operational non-stop for this length of time. Efficiency Programme entailing benchmarking of our corporate services, functional reviews informed by the Common Fisheries Policy benchmarking results by April 2009 and implementation of review findings. Work under the programme is dovetailing Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for and building upon more general action which the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what priorities Department has been taking to achieve greater value the Government has set for reform of the Common for money (VFM). For example, our Workplace Support Fisheries Policy; and if he will make a statement. Initiative which will bring much of the DEFRA estate [296470] into a single Facilities Management contract saving £6 million per year in 2010-11 compared to the preceding Huw Irranca-Davies: The European Commission year, rising to £11 million per year by 2013-14. The published a Green Paper on CFP reform on 21 April Department has a wide range of learning and development 2009 to trigger the CFP reform process and prompt opportunities many of which underpin the drive for debate across the EU. That paper presents a Vision for VFM. 801W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 802W

Departmental Telephone Services Information on the split of car-hire expenditure between Ministers and staff could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many On hotels, the expenditure is: helplines his Department operates; and how much his Department has received from the operation of such £ helplines in each of the last three years. [294979] April 2006 - March 2007 87,950 April 2007 - March 2008 358,866 Dan Norris: DEFRA operates one general helpline April 2008 - March 2009 541,311 from which it receives no income. April 2009 - October 2009 327,067 Animal Health and the Rural Payments Agency, both Agencies of DEFRA, operate the Pets Travel Scheme Information on the split of hotel expenditure between Helpline and the British Cattle Movement Service Helpline Ministers and staff could be provided only at respectively and receive no income from them. disproportionate cost. The core-Department’s financial system records the Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for following expenditure for UK and overseas subsistence Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will but restaurant meals expenditure for Ministers and staff consider the merits of securing accreditation of his could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Department’s helplines to the Helplines Association’s quality standard; and if he will make a statement. £ UK Overseas [295725] April 2006 - 700,293 542,883 March 2007 Dan Norris: DEFRA’s Helpline is currently accredited April 2007 - 369,091 421,188 to ISO 9001. Additional and future renewal accreditations March 2008 will take account of the full range of quality standards April 2008 - 265,977 357,897 relevant to its operation. March 2009 April 2009 - 252,111 159,318 September 2009 Departmental Travel Travel by Ministers and civil servants is undertaken Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for in accordance with the Ministerial Code and the Civil Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much his Service Management Code respectively. The Cabinet Department spent on (a) car hire, (b) train travel, (c) office publish an annual list of overseas travel over air travel, (d) hotels and (e) restaurant meals for (i) £500 undertaken by Ministers. The 2008-09 list was Ministers and (ii) staff in his Department in each of the published on 16 July and can be viewed at: last five years. [289995] http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/proprietyandethics/ministers/ travelgifts.aspx Dan Norris: From information held centrally, the The Department for Transport publish an annual core-Department’s expenditure on (a) car hire since written ministerial statement on the cost of ministerial 2005-06 is: cars. The latest one can be viewed at: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/ £ cmhanrd/cm090716/wmstext/90716m0009

2005-06 35,003 Food: Packaging 2006-07 110,279 2007-08 134,803 2008-09 143,644 Mr. Illsley: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 (to date) 50,368 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether he plans to bring forward proposals for sanctions on companies On the train travel and air travel the expenditure is: using excessive packaging on their products; and if he will make a statement. [295592] (£) Air Train Ian Lucas: I have been asked to reply. July 2006 - March Staff 1,035,396 1,820,169 The UK’s Packaging (Essential Requirements) 2007 Regulations 2003 (as amended) aim to ensure that all Ministers 71,710 48,562 packaging is manufactured to ensure that the weight April 2007 - Staff 1,352,261 1,926,544 and volume are limited to the minimum adequate amount March 2008 to maintain the necessary level of safety, hygiene and Ministers 152,836 52,306 acceptance for the packed product and for the consumer. April 2008 - Staff 946,526 1,680,163 March 2009 These regulations are enforced by Trading Standards Ministers 102,730 53,254 Officers (TSOs) in local authorities. TSOs investigate complaints about companies using excessive packaging April 2009 - Staff 625,562 922,768 August 2009 on their products and the regulations contain penalties Ministers 38,324 14,148 that the courts can impose if those companies are found not to have complied. 803W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 804W

Green Alliance: Finance Mr. Kidney: I have been asked to reply. The latest 12 month period for which data are available Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State runs from 1 October 2008 to 30 September 2009. During for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what that time-period oil fired power stations provided electricity payments his Department has made to (a) Green to the high voltage transmission system on 182 days. Alliance and (b) Friends of the Earth in the last Their output represented 0.4 per cent. of total transmission 12 months. [294909] system demand. Dan Norris [holding answer 26 October 2009]: The core-department’s financial system records that in the Mr. Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for last 12 months no payments have been made to Friends Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage of the Earth and payments totalling £103,810 have been of operational oil-fired power stations will be more made to Green Alliance. Of this sum, £63,962.50 is than 30 years old in 2010. [296480] expenditure on a research study into the Role of Restrictions on Landfill in UK Waste Policy, and £39,847.50 is for Mr. Kidney: I have been asked to reply. grant expenditure on Strategic Relationship Management: In 2010, two currently operational oil-fired power Third Sector Strategy. DEFRA’s Third Sector Strategy stations will be more than 30 years old, approximately can be viewed at: 62 per cent. of current oil-fired installed capacity. http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/about/how/third- Source: sectorindex.htm Digest of UK Energy Statistics, 2009, table 5.11, available at: Japanese Knotweed: Weed Control http://decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/source/electricity/ electricity.aspx Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage Department is taking to eradicate Japanese knotweed; of operational coal-fired powers stations will be more what consideration has been given to the introduction than (a) 30 and (b) 40 years old in 2010. [296481] of psyllid species as part of such measures; and if he will make a statement. [296722] Mr. Kidney: I have been asked to reply. Huw Irranca-Davies: We have no plans to attempt In 2010, 10 currently operational coal-fired stations eradication of Japanese knotweed. The cost of a national will be 40 years old or greater, approximately 60 per eradication programme using current techniques would cent. of current coal-fired capacity, while a further five be prohibitively expensive, estimated in the 2003 DEFRA stations will be between 30 and 40 years old, approximately Review of Non-native Species Policy to be in the region 36 per cent. of current coal-fired capacity. of £1.56 billion. Source: DEFRA has contributed over £240,000 to a five-year Digest of UK Energy Statistics, 2009, table 5.11, available at: scientific research project in collaboration with Cornwall http://decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/source/electricity/ council, the Environment Agency, the Welsh Assembly electricity.aspx Government and others, into the natural control of Japanese knotweed. This study has identified the psyllid Party Conferences ‘Aphalara itadori’ as highly specific to Japanese knotweed and a potential natural control agent. If successful, the Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for control agent would limit the growth and natural spread Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether any of of Japanese knotweed, and enhance the effectiveness of his Department’s non-departmental public bodies sent its management, but would not eradicate it. representatives to attend one or more political party The psyllid has been tested against 87 plant species conferences in 2009. [293481] present in the UK, including all the members of the same genus, whether or not they are native, and all our Dan Norris: The Environment Agency, Natural England, native members of the same family, plus important the Commission for Rural Communities and the Consumer crops and ornamentals. Council for Water attended the three main party Applications have been submitted for licences to release conferences. the psyllid to the wild in England and Wales and the Renewable Energy: Exports licensing authorities are giving careful consideration to the scientific evidence. This regulatory process has also included a public consultation by DEFRA’s Food and Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment Research Agency (Fera), which was launched Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate on 23 July. The consultation responses are currently his Department has made of the quantity of recovered being considered before the proposed licensing decisions fuel oil which was exported to other European are put to Ministers for approval. countries in the last three years. [296855] Oil Fired Power Stations Dan Norris: DEFRA has not made an estimate of this kind. However, following the judgment of the Appeal Mr. Binley: To ask the Secretary of State for Court in the OSS Group Ltd v. Environment Agency Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on how many case, the Environment Agency published on 1 August days oil-fired power stations were activated in the most 2008 an interim statement on the regulation of waste recent 12 month period for which figures are available. oil. The Environment Agency’s statement is available [296479] on its website and sets out the circumstances in which 805W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 806W the Agency considers that fuel derived wholly or partially children; providing advice to child and adult cyclists on from waste lubricating oil has been fully recovered and safe road use through the Highway Code and the THINK! has ceased to be waste. The statement also sets out the road safety campaign, including use of protective equipment specification that currently applies in these circumstances. such as high visibility clothing and cycle helmets; providing The Environment Agency’s interim statement was more safe cycle routes to schools and other locations; published pending the development by the Agency of guidance to local authorities on the design of safer road an end-of-waste protocol for fuels derived from waste infrastructure, including effective cycle-specific measures lubricating oils. The Government have notified the Agency’s as well as more general measures that benefit all road post consultation draft of its end-of-waste protocol users such as 20 miles per hour (mph) zones; improvements “for the production and use of processed fuel oil from to motor vehicle driver testing and training; and new waste lubricating oils” to the European Commission in measures on lorry mirrors to improve the visibility of compliance with Technical Standards Directive (98/34/EC). cyclists and pedestrians. The initial three-month standstill period required under In addition, the Department for Transport has the directive ends on 30 November 2009. commissioned a research project looking at a range of cycle safety issues. The project commenced on 21 August 2008 and will run for 24 months. The Department TRANSPORT expects to publish the final reports in autumn 2010. Our proposals for a new road safety strategy “A Safer Cycling: Helmets Way”, published for consultation in April 2009, include a new target to halve the rate of cycle and pedestrian Annette Brooke: To ask the Minister of State, casualties per kilometre travelled. This recognises the Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of need to encourage more cycling and walking as well as 20 October 2009, Official Report, column 101W, on making them safer. Measures to achieve this include cycling: helmets, how much his Department has spent stronger guidance to local authorities to adopt 20 mph on informing those (a) under 16 and (b) 16 or more speed limits in residential streets and other areas with years old of the risks of cycling without helmets; and if high levels of walking and cycle activity. We intend to he will make a statement. [296897] publish our final road safety strategy later this year. Paul Clark: The Think! campaigns for children include advice on the use of cycle helmets, as part of wider Dartford-Thurrock Crossing campaigns. These include Tales of the Road for children aged six to 11, launched in November 2008, which Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister of State, Department includes both pedestrian and cycle safety, including use for Transport what plans the Government has made for of helmets, in the supporting materials, although the the sale of the Dartford-Thurrock crossing; and if he three TV adverts focus on pedestrian safety. In April will make a statement. [296569] 2009, we launched Think Education, to provide teachers and parents with good quality teaching materials covering Mr. Khan: The Prime Minister announced on 12 October all road safety issues. Advice on cycle helmets is part of that the Government are planning to raise £3 billion these materials. So far they cover pre-school and upper from the sale of assets over the next period. The Dartford primary age ranges. Materials for lower primary and Crossing was cited as an example of an asset that could secondary age groups up to 16 will be launched next be sold. The Department for Transport is working with year. Total spending on these campaigns is £3,525,000 HM Treasury and the Shareholder Executive to consider but it is not possible to identify separately the proportion the commercial options for realising value for the taxpayer related to the information on cycle helmet use. from the Dartford Crossing. This work is influenced by Advice on cycle helmet use, for all ages, is also decisions to be made on the requirement for future included in the cycling section of the Highway Code. capacity. Spending on the Highway Code is covered by revenue The Department is planning to provide initial views raised from sales of priced copies. The material is also from the analysis on future capacity options in early available free on the DirectGov website. 2010. This will provide a basis for deciding which We have commissioned research on a range of cycle commercialisation option to pursue. safety issues, which includes identifying good practice in encouraging use of cycle helmets. The project commenced Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister of State, Department on 21 August 2008 and will run for 24 months. The for Transport how much the operator of the Dartford- Department for Transport expects to publish the final Thurrock crossing has received under its contract with reports in autumn 2010 but is aiming to complete the the Department since April 2008; and how much review of cycle helmet effectiveness later this year. Total revenue has accrued to the Department from the spend on this project will be in the region of £537,000. operation of the crossing since April 2008. [296571] Cycling: Safety Mr. Khan: The Road User Charging Order Accounts Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, for the financial year 2008-09 will set out the revenue Department for Transport what steps he plans to take collected and the amount paid to Le Crossing Company to improve the safety of cyclists. [296978] Limited, previous operators of the Dartford Crossing. This data will not be available until early next year. Paul Clark: There are a number of initiatives under When published, these Accounts will be placed in the way at present, aimed at improving the safety of cyclists. Libraries of the House and on the Highways Agency’s These include promoting Bikeability cycle training for website. 807W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 808W

Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls Paul Clark: The Department for Transport is working on a range of measures to improve heavy goods vehicle Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, safety.On vehicle standards, our plans include implementing Department for Transport what assessment he has mandatory requirements for Electronic Stability Control made of the merits of installing a modern payment and supporting the introduction of Lane Departure system which does not require vehicles to stop to pay Warning Systems and Advanced Emergency Braking with cash on the Dartford Crossing; and if he will Systems. We are also carrying out research on ways to make a statement. [296416] improve driver vision. Earlier this year new regulations to harmonise the minimum European safety and Mr. Khan [holding answer 29 October 2009]: A payment environmental standards for all large vehicles came into system which does not require vehicles to stop and pay force and will take effect over the next four years. cash is already available at the Dartford Crossing. The Dart-tag system at the crossing is based on dedicated Motor Vehicles: Environment Protection short range communications (DSRC) technology and complies with EU directive 2004/52/EC (Interoperability Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, of Electronic Road Toll Systems). This is a pre-payment Department for Transport what assessment has been system available for all classes of vehicle and does not made of the effects of (a) motorcycles and (b) cars on involve cash handling at the plaza. the environment in the period from 2006 to 2009. A Dart-Tag is a computer chip based device that fixes [296980] to the inside of the vehicle’s windscreen. Equipment Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport has not installed in the toll booths automatically scans the conducted a specific assessment on this subject. However, personalised Dart-Tag, and providing the driver’s account the Department did publish research on improving road is in credit, the barrier rises automatically. transport emissions modelling in June 2009, which can The Department for Transport intends to look further be found at: at the potential benefits of credit card payments and http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/environment/emissions/ newer technologies at the Dartford Crossing. This research includes an updated database of ‘road Driving Offences vehicle emissions factors’. These characterise the average emissions rates of different types of vehicles as a function Mr. Goodwill: To ask the Minister of State, of the average speed at which they are driven. This Department for Transport how many road traffic database includes emissions factors (both air quality incidents involving stretch limousines and involving and greenhouse gas emissions) for different sizes of cars death or serious injury have been reported in the most and motorcycles. recent year for which figures are available. [297483] Motor Vehicles: Exports

Paul Clark: In 2008 there were five reported road Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, accidents involving death or serious injury known to Department for Transport what his estimate is of the involve limousines. It is not recorded how many of these number of second-hand (a) passenger cars and (b) were stretched limousines. light vans that were sold for export in each of the last Exhaust Emissions five years. [296415] Paul Clark [holding answer 29 October 2009]: The Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Minister of State, Department precise information requested could be obtained only at for Transport what estimate his Department has made disproportionate cost. However, the Driver and Vehicle of the average quantity of carbon dioxide released by Licensing Agency has been notified that a total of an exhaust which is (a) compliant with and (b) not 315,092 vehicles were exported during 2008 that had compliant with the criteria set out in European previously been registered at an address in Great Britain. Directive 92/97/EEC. [296412] By late October, 307,823 vehicles had been exported during 2009. Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport has made no assessment of the impact on carbon dioxide emissions These figures cover all vehicle types, including commercial of exhausts which are (a) compliant with and (b) not vehicles, and all permanent exports, regardless of whether compliant with the criteria set out in European Directive or not the export coincided with a sale or a change of 92/97/EEC. ownership. The Directive is primarily concerned with the ability Motorcycles: Environment Protection of replacement exhausts to control noise. It does not directly control CO2 emissions, although it does limit Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, the maximum permissible increase in exhaust back-pressure. Department for Transport what recent steps his However, there is no reason to expect a difference Department has taken to encourage the purchase of between approved and reasonable quality, non-approved environmentally-friendly motorcycles. [296982] replacement exhaust systems in respect of CO2 emissions. Mr. Khan: Like other road vehicles, new motorcycles Lorries: Safety are subject to mandatory air quality emissions standards. Motorcycles are not currently tested for CO2 emissions Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, when they are type approved. In the absence of standard Department for Transport what steps his Department CO2 emissions figures, vehicle excise duty on motorcycles plans to take to improve the safety of heavy goods is graduated based on engine capacity as an approximate vehicles. [296869] surrogate for CO2 emissions. 809W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 810W

Road Traffic Offences: Foreigners Salaries in actual Heritage staff Heritage staffs prices as a Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, salaries in actual salaries in real percentage of total Department for Transport what discussions he has had prices (£) prices (£) salaries with the Secretary of State for the Home Department 2008-09 932,990 932,990 5.15 on measures to ensure that drivers of heavy goods 2007-08 1,124,157 1,151,729 4.31 vehicles registered overseas are prosecuted for road 2006-07 1,364,310 1,438,159 5.33 traffic offences committed in England and Wales. 2005-06 1,353,348 1,468,811 5.77 [295013] 2004-05 1,235,931 1,366,409 5.78 2003-04 1,327,530 1,508,471 6.41 Paul Clark: In April 2009, the Government introduced 2002-03 1,277,922 1,493,039 6.49 the graduated penalty and fixed deposit scheme. This 2001-02 1,334,472 1,609,388 6.33 empowers both the police and enforcement officers 2000-01 1,363,659 1,681,329 5.39 from the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency to 1999-2000 1,495,573 1,868,205 6.05 demand on-the-spot payment of a financial deposit 1998-99 1,600,812 2,039,017 6.89 from non-resident drivers (including heavy goods vehicle 1997-98 1,440,411 1,873,364 10.50 drivers) committing road traffic offences. Offenders are given the option to go to court, and have the deposit returned to them if they are subsequently cleared of the Departmental Home Working offence. In practice, almost no foreign drivers elect to go to court. David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many staff of his Rolling Stock Department have been authorised to work from home in the last 12 months. [297741] Mr. Martlew: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport whether there are any plans Mr. Simon: DCMS staff are actively encouraged to to extend to 11 carriages all of the 52 Pendolino trains. work alternative working patterns, including working [296885] from home. These are mainly arranged at local line management level and the Department does not hold Chris Mole: The option to extend the remaining comprehensive data centrally about the number of staff 21 Pendolino trains to 11 carriages is currently being involved. DCMS has a new human resources information considered by the Department for Transport and we system in place, and when this is fully operational, will intend to make a decision by the end of the year on record this information for us. whether we wish to progress this option further. Waterloo International Departmental Manpower

Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Transport on what date ownership of Culture, Media and Sport how many (a) full and (b) Waterloo International passed from (a) the British part-time employees his Department had in each year Rail (Residuary) body to his Department; and (b) his since 1997. [297395] Department to Network Rail. [295900] Mr. Simon: The number of full and part time employees Chris Mole: The Waterloo International Terminal for each year since 1997 is set out in the following table. was transferred directly from Eurostar (UK) Ltd. to Head count is taken as at 1 April each year. BRB (Residuary) Ltd. (BRBR) on 27 March 2008. The facility remains in BRBR’s ownership. Full time Part-time employees employees Total

1997-98 330 18 348 CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT 1998-99 369 18 387 1999-2000 341 13 354 Cultural Heritage 2000-01 390 20 410 2001-02 390 20 410 Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2002-03 430 20 450 Media and Sport how much money his Department 2003-04 460 30 490 has spent on salaries for staff working on heritage (a) 2004-05 490 40 530 in actual prices, (b) in real prices and (c) as a 2005-06 480 45 525 percentage of total expenditure on staff salaries by his 2006-07 480 41 521 Department in each year since 1997. [292305] 2007-08 494 33 527 2008-09 437 45 482 Margaret Hodge [holding answer 12 October 2009]: Salaries for employees working on heritage in (a) actual prices and (b) in real prices and (c) as a percentage of Film total expenditure on employee salaries is set out in the table. Variations in the figures are explained by restructuring Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for and efficiency savings undertaken within the division, Culture, Media and Sport what recent steps his and the transfer of areas of responsibility to other Department has taken to support the UK film divisions within the Department. industry. [297258] 811W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 812W

Mr. Simon: The Government have recently announced Mr. Sutcliffe: We are delighted that the Isle of Wight that they will commit £45 million to establish a new has won the right to host the 2011 Island Games. While state-of-the-art national film centre on London’s South the primary responsibility for promoting the games lies Bank, on top of the £25 million investment in the UK’s with the organising committee that has been established, screen heritage previously announced. The new BFI the Department would be happy to meet with them to National Film Centre will showcase the best of British discuss what assistance it might be able to provide. and world cinema across five screens, as well as creating an innovative new space for exhibitions, cultural events, Members: Correspondence research and study. The Government provided £34.834 million of grant Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for funding to the UK Film Council for 2009-10. The UK Culture, Media and Sport when he plans to reply to the Film Council invests grant in aid and lottery money in letter of 1 September 2009 from the right hon. Member developing new filmmakers, in funding exciting new for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Tim Bannister. British films, in getting a wider choice of films to [296119] audiences throughout the UK, and in awarding £16 million annually to the BFI to fund activities which include the Mr. Timms: I have been asked to reply. preservation of the film archives. The UK Film Council I responded to my right hon. Friend the Member for also invests in training, promoting Britain as an international Manchester, Gorton on behalf of my noble Friend the filmmaking location and in raising the profile of British Secretary of State and my right hon. Friend the Secretary films abroad. of State for Culture, Media and Sport on 26 October. The letter that was sent to the Department for Culture The Government provide tax relief to support Media and Sport had been transferred to the Department filmmakers; in 2008-09 film production companies benefited for Business for response. I apologise to my right hon. from £100 million worth of tax credit. Friend that he had not been advised of the transfer. Horse Racing: Bookmakers Swimming: Concessions

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of Culture, Media and Sport how many people took part 9 September 2009, Official Report, column 2039W, on in his Department’s free swimming initiative in the last horse racing: bookmakers, whether the letter sent by 12 months. [297399] the Minister of Sport referred to a dispute resolution mechanism; and if he will make a statement. [297105] Mr. Bradshaw: The number of unique participants in the Free Swimming Programme is not collected centrally. Mr. Sutcliffe: My letter of 28 July to the Federation Local authorities are responsible for collecting data on of Racecourse Bookmakers and the Race Course the number of free swims that have taken place in their Association included my view that a dispute resolution area each month. The latest figures, published on 27 October mechanism should be allowed, as long as it is simple, 2009, showed that 10,373,811 free swims have taken quick and cost effective, and does not become a reason place in the six months since the programme’s launch to avoid legitimate negotiation. on 1 April 2009. TheGovernmenthavecommissionedarobustindependent Horse Racing: Towcester evaluation of the Free Swimming Programme which is led by PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers will draw together a range of data over the coming Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for months to provide an estimate of the number of people Culture, Media and Sport what recent assessment he that have taken part in free swimming. We expect an has made of the effect of the regulatory regime on the evaluation report to be published in early summer 2010. future of Towcester racecourse in light of the agreement between the racecourse and its bookmakers VisitBritain: Finance for the tenure of on-course bookmakers’ listing positions. [297622] Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much the move of Mr. Sutcliffe: I have not made a recent detailed VisitBritain and VisitEngland to new headquarters assessment of the regulatory regime on the future of cost; what the estimated operating cost is for the new Towcester Racecourse but I did meet their representatives headquarters in each of the next three years; and what at the outset of the on-course discussions and have the operating costs were for (a) VisitBritain’s and (b) taken a close interest in the developments. I was delighted VisitEngland’s former headquarters in each of the last to attend a reception hosted by Towcester Racecourse five years. [296453] on 27 October to announce the agreement they have reached with their on-course bookmakers and I encourage Margaret Hodge: The information regarding the move other race courses to consider similar agreements. of VisitBritain and VisitEngland to new headquarters is held by VisitBritain. Island Games I have therefore asked VisitBritain’s chief executive to answer the question raised by the hon. Member for Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Bath and to write to him direct. Culture, Media and Sport whether he plans to promote Copies of the letter will be placed in the Library of the Island Games in the Isle of Wight. [297662] both Houses. 813W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 814W

Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Angela Eagle [holding answer 29 October 2009]: Where Culture, Media and Sport how much was spent on the the Secretary of State reviews the amounts of earnings VisitBritain website in each of the last five years; how linked benefits, by convention, the Department uses the many visitors the website received in each of those seasonally adjusted, three-month average earnings figure years; and what the average hit rate was for individual for the whole economy, including bonuses, for May to accommodation business web pages in each of those July compared with same period the previous year, as years. [296454] calculated by the Office for National Statistics. The Government will inform Parliament of proposed Margaret Hodge: The VisitBritain website is the benefit levels and tax thresholds for 2010-11 at the responsibility of VisitBritain. pre-Budget Report. I have therefore asked VisitBritain’s chief executive to answer the question raised by the hon. Member for Better Off in Work Credit: Yorkshire Bath and to write to him direct. Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people have moved from Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, benefits to work as a result of the Better off in Work Media and Sport how much has been spent on the (a) Credit pilot in Yorkshire. [293983] VisitBritain and (b) Enjoy England websites in each year since their establishment. [297112] Jim Knight: Under the current tax and benefit systems, the combination of the national minimum wage, tax Margaret Hodge [holding answer 2 November 2009]: credits and the other forms of in-work support we have The running and maintenance of these website are the introduced ensures that work pays for the majority of responsibility of VisitBritain and VisitEngland respectively, people, and particularly lone parents and disabled people who operate independently of Government. who receive significantly more in work. I have therefore asked the chief executives of the One of our reasons for introducing the credit was to organisations concerned to consider the questions raised give assurances to our customers on the financial benefits by the hon. Member for South-West Surrey (Mr. Hunt) of moving into work and to encourage them to look for and to write to him direct. and start work. The pilot ends on 30 October 2009. We Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of will then evaluate the number of people who have both Houses. moved from benefits into work.

World Heritage Sites Carer’s Allowance: St Albans

Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Culture, Media and Sport how many applications for and Pensions how many people in St Albans locations in England to become World Heritage Sites constituency (a) are entitled to and (b) receive carer’s are outstanding; and if he will make a statement. allowance. [297569] [297005]

Margaret Hodge [holding answer 2 November 2009]: Jonathan Shaw: The available information is in the The UK Tentative List, published in 1999, identified following table. 25 sites for potential nomination for World Heritage Number of people entitled to carer’s allowance—St. Albans constituency: status, 15 of which are located in England. Six English February 2009 sites have since been inscribed on the World Heritage Number List. One English site, Darwin’s Landscape Laboratory, Total with entitlement 850 was submitted to UNESCO in 2009 and will be considered Total with entitlement only 350 by the World Heritage Committee at its annual meeting Total receiving payment 500 in 2010. Notes: The Government are currently reviewing its World 1. Caseload totals show the number of people who are entitled to receive carer’s allowance, including those who receive no actual payment. Heritage policy including making nominations in the 2. Carers entitled to receive carer’s allowance may not be paid it because they future and expects to make an announcement later this receive an overlapping benefit equal to or greater than their weekly rate of autumn. carer’s allowance. 3. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 4. Figures are published on the Department for Work and Pensions website at: www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/tabtool.asp Source: Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate: Work and Pensions WORK AND PENSIONS Longitudinal Study

Average Earnings: Income Related Benefits Departmental Manpower

Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what definition of average earnings her and Pensions how many staff there were in (a) her Department uses when setting the rates of benefits that Department’s predecessor in 1997 and (b) her are linked to earnings; and over which 12 month period Department on the latest date for which figures are the calculation is made. [296532] available. [292074] 815W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 816W

Helen Goodman: The Department for Work and Pensions particular, we have set up a lean academy which will was formed in June 2001 when the then Department of enable managers and staff to improve efficiency and Social Security merged with the then Employment Service customer service. and some parts of the then Department for Education and Employment. Departmental Rail Travel Staffing information for the predecessor organisations in 1997 can be found in the Civil Service Statistics Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Report for 1997. The report is available in electronic and Pensions how much her Department spent on first format through the attached link: class rail travel for civil servants in each of the last http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/Assets/css97_tcm6-2540.pdf three years; and if she will make a statement. [293095] The latest staffing figures which are publicly available are as at 30 June 2009. At this date there were 101,611 Jim Knight: The Department’s expenditure on first full-time equivalent staff in the Department for Work class rail travel has only been gathered in the format and Pensions and its Executive agencies.1 requested since June 2006. Details for the three-year period from June 2006 is shown in the following table: 1 Figure does not include staff in the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission or in the Health and Safety Executive. £ First class rail Departmental Postal Services spend for DWP Domestic Overseas Total

June 2006 to May 12,862,966 93,966 12,956,932 Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 Work and Pensions which companies are under June 2007 to May 12,236,169 93,872 12,330,041 contract to her Department to provide mail services; 2008 June 2008 to May 12,920,688 115,043 13,035,731 and when each such contract expires. [296093] 2009

Jim Knight: DWP’s primary postal provider remains The Department’s rail travel policy encourages staff Royal Mail Group. There is no contract or expiry date to travel using the most cost effective tickets available at and we have an annually agreed memorandum of the time of booking and staff must consider travelling understanding. Other contracted DWP postal providers standard class where possible. are as follows: Travel by civil servants is undertaken in accordance UK Mail—a contract for system generated second class mail with the principles of Managing Public Money and the to DWP customers. The DWP contract runs until 31 March Treasury handbook on Regularity and Propriety. The 2010 and there is scope to extend this contract until 31 March Civil Service Management Code sets outs regulations 2011. and instructions to Departments and agencies regarding Spring Global Mail—a contract for international mail to the terms and conditions of service of civil servants and DWP customers—due to expire 30 April 2010. the delegations which have been made by the Minister DWP’s contracted courier provider is TNT—the contract for the Civil Service under the Civil Service (Management is until 31 January 2010, with an option to extend until of Functions) Act 1992 together with the conditions 31 March 2012. The courier service is for internal items attached to those delegations. sent between DWP offices and third party providers - it The Code can be accessed at: is not used for delivery to DWP customers’ home http://beta.civilservice.uk/about/work/codes/csmc/index.aspx addresses. Paragraph 8.2 of the Code deals with travel and under this section Departments and agencies must ensure Departmental Public Expenditure that staff use the most efficient and economic means of travel in the circumstances, taking into account any Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and management benefit or the needs of staff with disabilities. Pensions what steps her Department is taking to implement the efficiency recommendations of the Departmental Telephone Services Operational Efficiency programme relating to her Department; and what training is available to (a) Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Ministers and (b) officials in her Department in and Pensions how many helplines her Department respect of the delivery of value for money savings. operates; and how much her Department has received [296058] from the operation of such helplines in each of the last three years. [294987] Jim Knight: The Department for Work and Pensions is participating in the Operational Efficiency Programme Jim Knight: The Department for Work and Pensions benchmarking exercise led by the Treasury, and we have (DWP) has 10 main customer contact numbers, which set up a Departmental Efficiency Group to identify and we think could be considered ’helplines’. implement efficiency improvements arising from this. DWP does not receive any revenue from incoming I have taken on a role as the Department’s Value for phone calls. All call charges are levied by the caller’s Money Minister and am engaging with the Treasury to telephone or mobile service provider. ensure we drive forward this agenda. DWP ceased to receive a rebate on 0845 numbers in There is a wide range of learning and development 2007. Prior to this, the revenue from 0845 calls was opportunities available across the Department, many of approximately £500,000 per year. We do not hold any which are focused on driving Value for Money. In more detailed information on this rebate. 817W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 818W

Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Knight: Around 31,000 jobs have so far been Work and Pensions what representations she has granted funding for the period October 2009 to March 2010. received on changing the charging arrangements for Details of the individual bids are in the attached table. helplines operated by her Department and its agencies In total, the 117 successful bids have bid to create up to to allow mobile telephone users to contact such 75,000 jobs over the lifetime of the Future Jobs Fund. helplines without incurring additional costs; and if she Until we have assessed performance from the first six will make a statement. [295467] months jobs we are unable to specify how many of these further jobs will be created from the first tranche of Jim Knight [holding answer 26 October 2009]: Over bids. We will be undertaking performance reviews in the course of the year, representations have been received January 2010. from other Members of Parliament, on similar issues, Tranche One Successful Future Jobs Fund Bidders Jobs Granted Funding, such as the cost of 0845 numbers to customers using October 2009 to March 2010 mobile phones to contact the Department for Work and Pensions. All of these have been answered fully and are Royal National Institute of Blind 45 available on record. Aberdeen City Council 10 Additionally, DWP’s Permanent Secretary was asked Renaissance East of England 30 to comment on the CAB publication, “Hung Up—The The Healthy Hub CIC 35 Cost of Contacting Government from a Mobile Phone” Kent County Council 360 A response was provided as requested. Places for People 75 Trax Energy Solutions 70 Employers’ Liability London - Barking and Dagenham 108 Third Sector Hebrides 20 Rob Marris: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Green-Works 51 and Pensions how many organisations legally required Kirklees Council 138 to have an employers’ liability insurance policy in force HCT Group 42 were prosecuted by the Health and Safety Executive for Gateway Knowledge Alliance 200 (a) failure to display a notice at a place of work giving Call Brittania 45 details of such a policy and (b) failure to have such a Falkirk Council 28 policy in force in (i) 2004-05, (ii) 2005-06, (iii) 2006-07, The Coalfields Regeneration Trust 91 (iv) 2007-08 and (v) 2008-09. [293898] NHS 30 Camden Council 108 Jim Knight [holding answer 29 October 2009]: The Cheshire West and Chester Council 330 number of dutyholders the Health and Safety Executive Birmingham, Coventry and Black 3,552 have prosecuted for failure to (a) display a notice of Country employers’ liability insurance or (b) failure to hold West Lindsey District Council 30 employers’ liability insurance are as follows: Raploch Urban Regeneration Com 10 Croydon Economic Development C 24 (a) Failure to display (b) No insurance Hyfforddiant Ceredigion Training 40 Humber Economic Partnership 145 2004-05 1 14 Apex Scotland 2 2005-06 — 5 Fife Council 38 2006-07 — 8 St Mungo’s 50 2007-08 — 5 Community Action Derby 100 Figures for 2008-09 will be available in November North Yorkshire Learning 40 2009. Consortium Southbank Centre 30 Employment Tribunals Service 3SC 2,932 Stoke-on-Trent City Council 524 Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Wiltshire Council 180 Work and Pensions how many times her Department VC Train Consortium 60 has been taken to an employment tribunal in each of Cornwall Council 82 the last five years; what the reasons cited in each case Erewash Borough Council 20 were; and in how many such cases the tribunal found in South Lanarkshire Council 400 favour of (i) the employee and (ii) the Department. Royal Borough of Kingston 40 [290413] WCVA 593 Furniture Resource Centre Ltd 36 Jim Knight: Much of the information requested would Midlothian Council 32 be available only from a detailed examination of individual East Ayrshire Council 113 records and cases from the last five years. The information The Pre-school Learning Alliance 50 is not readily available and could be obtained only at Lewisham Council 79 disproportionate cost. Southbank Employers Group 38 Future Jobs Fund Novas Scarman Group 33 Angus Council 22 Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Bolsover District Council 50 and Pensions how many jobs each of the 117 successful Dundee Partnership 65 bidders for funding from the Future Jobs Fund plans Pennine Lancashire 419 to create (a) by given dates and (b) in total under its West Dunbartonshire Council 120 proposal. [291647] West Lothian Council 30 819W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 820W

Tranche One Successful Future Jobs Fund Bidders Jobs Granted Funding, Tranche One Successful Future Jobs Fund Bidders Jobs Granted Funding, October 2009 to March 2010 October 2009 to March 2010

Brighton and Hove City Council 120 Hartlepool Borough Council 500 First Movement 8 Salford City Council (aka 1,500 Resources Plus 100 Commission for the New Economy) Apex Scotland 2 Cardiff Council 289 Middlesbrough Council 150 Shropshire County Council 60 (Training) Luton Borough Council 102 Total 30,975 Newport Future Jobs Fund 72 Partnership Source: Future Jobs Fund Management Information Network for Black Professionals 90 North Tyneside Council 1,610 Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Northamptonshire Enterprise Ltd 350 and Pensions over what time period each of the Scottish Wildlife Trust 100 proposals successful in the Future Jobs Fund bidding Inverclyde Council 120 round which concluded in July 2009 will operate; and Stockton-on-Tees Borough Council 181 how many and by what date jobs will be created under Neath Port Talbot County Borough 96 Council each scheme. [291876] Pembrokeshire County Council 60 Camarthenshire County Council 97 Jim Knight: There is a rolling grant award process, Lambeth First 198 with bidding rounds closing at the end of every month. East Tenders 57 There were 117 successful bidders for the initial bidding Norfolk County Council 356 round which closed on 30 June. These bids will create Glasgow City Council 300 jobs between October 2009 and March 2011. Pentra Services Ltd 30 There were 30 successful bidders for the second bidding Interlink 45 round and 18 for the third round. North Ayrshire Council 60 From the first bidding round, the Government are Apex Scotland 2 granting funding now only for jobs that will start between Knowsley Metropolitan Borough 2,570 Council(Liverpool City Region) October 2009 and March 2010. The Government have Nacro 48 so far granted funding for approximately 31,000 jobs on Social Enterprise London 200 this basis. We will then assess performance of the Future London Borough of Ealing 100 Jobs Fund before extending grants. We will be undertaking Greenwich Council 260 these performance reviews in late 2009 and early 2010. Hampshire County Council 398 In total, successful bidders in the first round had bid for Hastings Borough Council 125 approximately 75,000 jobs over the period October Islington Council 167 2009 to March 2011, although it is not possible at this Host Borough Unit 89 stage to state precisely how many of these further jobs Asian Women’s Project 0 will be funded after the performance reviews have Westminster City Council 95 concluded. London Youth 50 In total 150,000 new jobs will be created under the Future North Lanarkshire Council 390 Jobs Fund between October 2009 and March 2011, of Nottingham City Council 800 which 100,000 will be for young people. The other Salvation Army 332 50,000 will be in employment hotspots, and will also be Redcar and Cleveland Borough LSP 75 open to young people in those areas. Merthyr Tydfil County Borough 872 Council Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Royal Society of Wildlife Trusts 182 and Pensions how many bids for funding from the Scottish Forestry Commission 60 Future Jobs Fund have been received from St. Paul’s Community Development 100 Trust organisations in the (a) culture, music and creative Kensington and Chelsea 62 industries and (b) sports and media industries; and Stride 78 how much such organisations have received funding Southwark Earn and Learn 112 from the fund. [295518] Thanet District Council 119 Renaisi Ltd 100 Jim Knight [holding answer 26 October 2009]: The Education Supplement Partnership 0 Department for Work and Pensions does not have a SCVO 1,020 detailed breakdown of the sectors that the bids seek to Groundwork and NHF 2,384 create jobs in. The list of successful bidders to the Future Jobs Fund is available on our website at Bristol City Council 189 Training for Life 49 www.dwp.gov.uk/futurejobsfund. Warwickshire County Council 73 Many of these bids are from partnerships who plan to City of Edinburgh Council 80 create jobs with a variety of organisations, in different Herefordshire Council 54 sectors. The Football League Trust and the National Copeland Borough Council 48 Skills Academy for Sport led bid will be creating Future Sheffield City Council 790 Jobs Fund jobs primarily in the sports sector. Barnsley MDC 326 Information on the levels of funding awarded is not Lancashire County Council 128 publicly available as this is commercially confidential. 821W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 822W

Incapacity Benefit Letter from Ruth Owen: The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work asking, pursuant to the answer of 20 May 2009, Official Report, and Pensions how many and what proportion of column 1394W, on Jobcentre Plus manpower, how many of the incapacity benefit claimants between the ages of 18 and (a) personal advisers of each type and (b) customer service operations staff (i) have been recruited and (ii) are planned to be 25 she expects to take part in three additional recruited. This is something that falls within the responsibilities mandatory work-focused interviews as proposed in the delegated to Mel Groves as Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Social Security (Incapacity Benefit Work-Focused Plus. As Mel Groves is currently on annual leave, I am replying in Interviews) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 in the next his absence. 12 months. [292916] Information relating to the number of Personal Advisers deployed in Jobcentre Plus was previously provided to the answer of Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 14 October 2009]: 19 June 2009, Official Report, column 558W. The exercise to require existing customers on incapacity The Department is planning to publish more up-to-date numbers benefits under the age of 25 in Jobcentre Plus Pathways on DWP manpower in the near future. These will be published in to Work areas to attend mandatory work-focused interviews accordance with the UK Statistics Authority’s Code of Practice begins this month. We plan to complete the exercise by for Official Statistics. March 2011. Current estimates indicate that around 28,300 customers will be affected, this represents around Jobcentre Plus: Birmingham 25 per cent. of the 18 to 25-year-olds currently on incapacity benefits nationally.Customers who are currently exempt from attending personal capability assessments Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for will not be called in for interview. Work and Pensions what assessment her Department has made of the (a) aims and (b) performance to date of the Birmingham City Council Jobcentre Plus Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work partnership. [295848] and Pensions how many claimants who receive both disability living allowance and incapacity benefit have been in receipt of incapacity benefit for more than (a) Jim Knight [holding answer 26 October 2009]: The six months, (b) 12 months, (c) 18 months, (d) two administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the years and (e) five years. [295572] acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member with the Jonathan Shaw [holding answer on 26 October 2009]: information requested. The information is in the table: Letter from Mel Groves: Number of people receiving incapacity benefit and disability living allowance by The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question duration as at February 2009 asking what assessment her Department has made of the (a) Number of claimants of incapacity aims and (b) performance to date of the Birmingham City benefit/severe disablement Council Jobcentre Plus partnership. This is something which falls allowance and disability living within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief Executive Duration allowance of Jobcentre Plus. 6 months and up to 12 months 46,390 Birmingham City Council has been a long standing partner in 12 months and up to 18 months 42,410 a wide range of initiatives which have an employment or training 18 months and up to 2 years 41,540 focus. Jobcentre Plus and Birmingham City Council are an active 2 years and up to 5 years 219,620 part of a wider network promoting support for those who are 5 years and over 945,600 workless or disadvantaged. Birmingham City Council is also very active in the City Region, in the design and delivery of the Multi Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Area Agreement which Jobcentre Plus is also a member of. The 2. Durations refer to incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance awards. Local Area Agreement also provides a productive working 3. Data are for Great Britain and abroad. arrangement for both organisations and other partners. 4. Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new claims from 27 October Most of this activity has a similar aim to help reduce 2008. These data do not include employment and support allowance. unemployment, increase employment and to tackle deep seated Source: worklessness. Examples of joint working stem from the Joint DWP Information Directorate 100 per cent. Work and Pensions Longitudinal Venture Partnership which delivered New Deal in the city, the Study partnership initiatives to address the closure of MG Rover and the impact on other dependent businesses and the redevelopment Jobcentre Plus and modernisation of the Bull Ring. In addition Birmingham City Council is the accountable body Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for several funding streams such as the Working Neighbourhoods and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 20 May 2009, Fund and works with partners to target funding to those most in Official Report, column 1394W, on Jobcentre Plus need, for example, geographically targeted employment support. manpower, how many of the (a) personal advisers of Recently Jobcentre Plus has developed initiatives with Birmingham each type and (b) customer service operations staff (i) City Council to help those affected by the closure of the van have been recruited and (ii) are planned to be recruited. maker LDV, which ensured that 662 LDV workers received a range of advice on job search, debt avoidance and claiming [291218] Housing Benefits. 111 ex-LDV workers have returned to employment and a further 493 have received training. Jim Knight [holding answer 16 September 2009]: The Jobcentre Plus and Birmingham City Council have developed administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the a joint offer to contractors and employers involved in regeneration acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus, Mel Groves. I and relocation within the city. Projects include the New Birmingham have asked him to provide the right hon. Member with Library and the relocation of Bournville College as part of the the information requested. Longbridge Development. 823W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 824W

Birmingham City Council signed a Local Employment Partnership Jobcentre Plus staffing Agreement on 1 April 2008 and were one of the first to pledge Full-time equivalent help for young people through Backing Young Britain. They lead Region/country 2007/08 2008/09 a coalition with the public sector, private employers and the third sector to deliver the City Region wide Future Jobs Fund with West Midlands 6,391 6,781 more than 2000 jobs being identified in Birmingham. Yorkshire and the 7,360 7,413 Jobcentre Plus works closely with Birmingham City Council’s Humber Employment Action Team to reach customers and communities Total 66,407 69,482 furthest away from the labour market and jointly promote Local Notes: Employment Partnerships to deliver customised packages to support 1. Headcount figures are quoted in full-time equivalents using the Office for National Statistics definitions for counting headcount and details the position employers. For example, 160 disadvantaged customers are undertaking at March for each of the last five years. a Pre-Recruitment Training programme for a national retailer 2. The figures have been rounded to whole numbers. opening in early 2010. Source: The data provided is taken from Dataview, an electronic extract drawn from payroll. Jobcentre Plus: Manpower

Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions how many Jobcentre Plus staff and Pensions how many care partnership managers were employed in each region in each of the last five were in post in each Jobcentre Plus district on years. [291602] 1 October 2009. [294498]

Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is Jim Knight [holding answer 20 October 2009]: The the responsibility of the acting chief executive, Mel administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Mel Groves. I with the information requested. have asked him to provide the right hon. Member with Letter from Mel Groves: the information requested. The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Letter from Mel Groves: asking how many Jobcentre Plus staff were employed in each region in each of the last five years. This is something that falls The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief Executive asking how many Care Partnership Managers were in post in of Jobcentre Plus. each Jobcentre Plus district on 1 October 2009. This is something A regional breakdown for the period before 2007/08 is not which falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting available. For that period therefore, we are providing an overall Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. Jobcentre Plus staffing figure for each year as shown below: On 1 October this year a total of 51 Care Partnership Managers Jobcentre Plus staffing were in post across 48 Jobcentre Plus districts. Gloucestershire, Full-time equivalent Wiltshire and Swindon district, Devon and Cornwall district and The Marches each had two Care Partnership Managers in post. 2004/05 74,474 All the others had one in post. 2005/06 71,221 2006/07 67,946 Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for For 2007/08 and 2008/09, the information at regional/country Work and Pensions how many (a) permanent, (b) level is in the table below. The levels of Jobcentre Plus staff temporary and (c) agency staff have been employed in deployed across regions/countries will vary depending on how specific areas of work are managed. For instance, the Contact (i) benefit delivery centres and (ii) customer-facing job Centre Directorate operates a virtual network and therefore aligning centres operated by Jobcente Plus in Mid-Bedfordshire their work to geographic boundaries would be misleading. Wales constituency in each year since 2004. [295402] has three large contact centres handling calls as part of the virtual network. On the same principle, the network of Benefit Delivery Centres Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is can, and does, move work around the country on a weekly basis the responsibility of the acting chief executive, Mel to maximise speed of claim processing. Although Benefit Delivery Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member Centres are in the main linked to regions/countries, such work with the information requested. movement and some centralised functions mean there is not a clear distinction. For example, applications for National Insurance Letter from Mel Groves: numbers are processed in two centres, Glasgow and Isle of Wight, The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question so staff numbers will be included in the Government Office asking how many (a) permanent (b) temporary and (c) agency Region for Scotland and South East respectively. staff have been employed in (i) Benefit Delivery Centres and (ii) Jobcentre Plus staffing customer-facing Jobcentres operated by Jobcentre Plus in Mid- Full-time equivalent Bedfordshire constituency in each year since 2004. This is something Region/country 2007/08 2008/09 that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Acting Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. East Midlands 4,342 4,801 There are two Jobcentres in the Mid-Bedfordshire constituency, East of England 4,202 4,601 but no Benefit Delivery Centres. Our Benefit Delivery Centres at London 7,407 7,560 Luton and Watford cater for people who live within the constituency. North East 4,313 4,333 Information below national level for the period prior to 2006/07 North West 10,661 10,672 is not available. The table below sets out data for both Jobcentres Scotland 7,776 8,256 for each of the years 2006/07, 2007/08 and 2008/09, broken down South East 5,118 5,555 by permanent, fixed-term appointment and temporary staff. Also South West 4,275 4,602 included is the position as at July 2009. We do not employ agency Wales 4,562 4,908 staff. 825W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 826W

Staff employed by Jobcentre Plus in Mid-Bedfordshire constituency Jobseeker’s Allowance: Employment Schemes Bedford Jobcentre Biggleswade Jobcentre 2006/07 Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Permanent 77 10 and Pensions how many jobseeker’s allowance Fixed Term ——claimants have moved on to employment support Appointment allowance in each of the last 12 months. [293595] Temporary — — Total 77 10 Jim Knight: The information requested is not collated centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate 2007/08 cost. Permanent 69 11 Fixed Term 3— Appointment New Deal for Disabled People and Pathways to Work Temporary — — Total 72 11 Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2008/09 and Pensions how much has been spent on the New Permanent 85 12 Deal for Disabled People in each year since 2001. Fixed Term 12 3 [295025] Appointment Temporary 1 — Jim Knight [holding answer 22 October 2009]: The Total 98 15 information requested is in the table: Total programme expenditure on new deal for disabled people July 2009 £ million Permanent 72 10 Fixed Term 29 7 2001-02 4.1 Appointment 2002-03 15.6 Temporary 5 — 2003-04 28.5 Total 106 17 2004-05 64.8 Notes: 2005-06 68.4 1. Headcount figures are quoted in full-time equivalents using the Office for 2006-07 73.0 National Statistics definitions for counting headcount and details the position at March for each of the last three years. 2007-08 78.4 2. The figures have been rounded to whole numbers. 2008-09 34.1 Source: Note: The data provided are taken from Dataview, an electronic extract drawn from The reduction of expenditure in 2008-09 is due to the introduction of contracted payroll. delivery of Pathways to Work in around half the country. These contracted services include provision which is analogous to the new deal for disabled Jobseeker’s Allowance: Derbyshire people which now only operates in the remaining districts.

Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions for what average length of time and Pensions how many sub-contractors have jobseeker’s allowance claimants, resident in West withdrawn from contractual commitments in the Derbyshire, received the allowance in each of the last delivery of the (a) New Deal for Disabled People and five years. [295874] (b) Pathways to Work programme; how many Jim Knight [holding answer 26 October 2009]: The contracts have been handed back to prime providers in following table shows the average length of jobseeker’s each district; and what the monetary value of contracts allowance claims in West Derbyshire in the last five returned to prime providers is to date. [292914] years. Jim Knight [holding answer 14 October 2009]: The West Derbyshire number of subcontractors that have withdrawn from Claims terminated the delivery of New Deal for Disabled People and during period Median length Pathways to Work provision will be placed in the House October 2004 to 1,735 9.5 of Commons Library during November. 1 September 2005 The monetary value of Pathways to Work contracts October 2005 to 1,740 10.1 September 20061 is a commercial matter between the organisations concerned. October 2006 to 1.975 9.7 September 20071 October 2007 to 1,805 8.5 Social Security Benefits September 20081 October 2008 to 3,030 9.2 September 20091 Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 1 Inclusive. and Pensions what estimate she has made of the Notes: 1. Claims terminated during period are rounded to the nearest 5. number and proportion of claimants of (a) incapacity 2. Median is measured in number of weeks. 3. Median is the preferred measure benefit and (b) severe disablement allowance who were of “average” for duration of claim, rather than arithmetic mean which would also in receipt of (i) income support, (ii) housing be unduly influenced by outliers. Source: benefit and (iii) council tax benefit in each year for DWP WPLS 100 per cent. data. which information is available. [295570] 827W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 828W

Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 26 October 2009]: The available information is in the tables.

Housing benefit recipients (HB) also claiming incapacity benefit (IB) and severe disablement allowance (SDA) in Great Britain: May 1995 to May 2004 IB SDA Estimate of percentage of IB Estimate of percentage of SDA Claiming IB and HB claimants also in receipt of HB Claiming SDA and HB claimants also in receipt of HB

May 1995 431,000 118 92,000 126 May 1996 434,000 118 110,000 131 May 1997 446,000 119 117,000 132 May 1998 439,000 119 122,000 133 May 1999 423,000 119 118,000 132 May 2000 407,000 17 114,000 30 May 2001 400,000 17 115,000 31 May 2002 403,000 16 114,000 34 May 2003 396,000 16 112,000 35 May 2004 414,000 17 114,000 37

Council tax benefit (CTB) recipients also claiming incapacity benefit (IB) and severe disablement allowance (SDA): Great Britain: May 1995 to May 2004 IB SDA Estimate of percentage of IB Estimate of percentage of SDA claimants also in receipt of claimants also in receipt of Claiming IB and CTB CTB Claiming SDA and CTB CTB

May 1995 529,000 122 101,000 129 May 1996 528,000 122 116,000 133 May 1997 573,000 124 119,000 132 May 1998 569,000 125 124,000 133 May 1999 541,000 124 118,000 132 May 2000 516,000 22 112,000 30 May 2001 511,000 21 113,000 30 May 2002 512,000 21 110,000 33 May 2003 498,000 20 97,000 30 May 2004 497,000 20 97,000 32 1 These estimates are based on a 5 per cent. sample of incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance claimants. Notes: 1. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. 2. Case loads are rounded to the nearest thousand. 3. Percentages are rounded to the nearest per cent. 4. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. 5. Council tax benefit figures exclude any second adult rebate cases. 6. All proportions are estimates as figures are based on a 1 per cent. HB/CTB sample and come from two different data sources. 7. SDA figures were derived by looking at IBSDA claimants and IB claimants and working out the difference between these figures. 8. In time, these figures will be able to be derived by matching the new single housing benefit extract (SHBE) with other benefit data. Source: Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Management Information System Annual 1 per cent. sample taken between May 1995 and May 2004.

Number and proportion of people receiving incapacity benefit (IB) and income support (IS) IB SDA Percentage of IB claimants also Percentage of SDA claimants Claiming IB and IS in receipt of IS Claiming SDA and IS also in receipt of IS

February 2000 959,880 40.9 256,540 68.3 February 2001 1,040,160 43.1 260,410 69.1 February 2002 1,078,130 44.4 253,550 70.4 February 2003 1,126,410 45.2 229,840 70.8 February 2004 1,038,020 41.4 191,950 62.0 February 2005 1,025,690 41.0 183,040 61.8 February 2006 1,022,180 41.5 174,150 61.5 February 2007 1,029,100 42.3 167,300 61.8 February 2008 1,035,630 43.1 159,750 61.8 February 2009 982,500 44.2 152,750 61.9 Note: Case loads are rounded to the nearest 10. Percentages are rounded to the nearest one decimal place. Source: DWP Information Directorate 100 per cent. WPLS

State Retirement Pensions: Overseas Residence British expatriates in each overseas country in each year from 1997 to 2008. [297122] Mr. Dunne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Angela Eagle: The information requested is not available, and Pensions how much was paid in state pensions to as nationality is not routinely held on our statistical 829W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 830W data sources. Information on state pensions paid overseas, Mr. Bob Ainsworth: No UK citizens or residents have irrespective of nationality, can be found in the DWP been captured by British forces in Afghanistan since pages on the internet (table SP2): 2001. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/historical_overseas.xls Her Majesty’s Government are aware of six UK Winter Fuel Payments citizens captured by coalition forces in Afghanistan since 2001, all of whom were subsequently transferred Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to Guantanamo Bay. None of these individuals were and Pensions how many people in St Albans charged with a crime and all have since been released constituency (a) over the age of 60, (b) over the age of without charge. The average period of detention by 80 and (c) in total received a winter fuel payment in coalition forces, including time spent at Guantanamo each of the last three years. [297531] Bay, for these individuals was approximately two and a half years. Angela Eagle: The number of individuals that received It is not possible to be specific about the number of a winter fuel payment in St. Albans constituency, in UK residents captured by coalition forces. When detained each of the last three years are as follows: an individual will be asked their nationality, not their country of residence, and may choose not to offer this (a) Number of (b) Number of individuals aged 60 individuals aged 80 (c) Total number information. It should also be noted that coalition to 79 and over of individuals forces are not obliged to inform us of when they detain a non-UK national; therefore, we may not be informed 2006-07 13,570 3,450 17,020 when a British resident has been detained. Furthermore, 2007-08 13,930 3,580 17,510 while an individual may have resided in the UK it will 2008-09 14,190 3,690 17,880 not always be possible to determine whether they were Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10 for years. lawfully resident. For this reason, any figure we give 2. Parliamentary constituencies are assigned by matching postcodes against the cannot be definitive. We are, however, aware of at least relevant ONS postcode directory. one UK resident captured by coalition forces in Afghanistan Source: DWP Information Directorate 100 per cent. data since 2001, and who was subsequently transferred to Guantanamo Bay where he remains detained without Mr. Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Work charge. and Pensions how much her Department has spent on winter fuel payments in each year since 2005. [297408] Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many service personnel have been (a) Angela Eagle: The information is in the following killed and (b) seriously wounded in Afghanistan in table: each year since UK forces entered Helmand province; Expenditure on winter fuel payments and how many such casualties were caused by (i) £ million roadside or other pre-positioned devices and (ii) enemy Provisional fire in combat. [297021] Outturn outturn 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The MOD is committed to openly Expenditure 1,982 2,015 2,071 2,694 publishing casualty statistics on the number of service Notes: personnel killed and wounded on operations. Information 1. Figures are for Great Britain. on casualties sustained since January 2006 in Afghanistan 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest million. 3. Figures include additional payments made in 2008-09 of £50 for 60-79 and information on how each individual was killed is year-olds and £100 for over 80 year olds. included in their eulogies available on our website Source: DWP benefit expenditure tables, Table 3 http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/ http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/alltables_Budget2009_Values.xls OperationsFactsheets We do not disclose information on how casualties are injured as its disclosure would, or would be likely to DEFENCE prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of the Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations armed forces.

Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Armed Forces: Housing (1) how many British (a) citizens and (b) residents have been captured by (i) British and (ii) coalition Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for forces in Afghanistan in each province in each year Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of the since 2001; [296141] detailed analysis of the net profit and loss accrued from (2) how many British citizens and residents captured the management of Service Families’ Accommodation in Afghanistan have subsequently been charged with a by Defence Estates in each of the last five years; and if crime; how many were released without charge; and he will make a statement. [296985] how many have been detained without charge; [296142] (3) how long on average British citizens and residents Mr. Kevan Jones: The main constituents of income captured by British and coalition forces in Afghanistan and expenditure in relation to the management of Service since 2001 have been detained; and in which countries Families Accommodation within the UK for the financial they have been detained; [296143] years (FY) 2006-07 to 2008-09 are provided in the (4) how many British citizens and residents captured following table. Comparable and consistent data prior in Afghanistan and subsequently charged with a crime to FY 2006-07 is not held centrally and could be provided remain in custody. [296731] only at disproportionate cost. 831W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 832W

(SPVA) in April 2007 the Veterans Welfare Service has £ million proactively provided support to injured personnel as Actual they leave the service and thereafter. In addition the 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 welfare organisations within the Army, Royal Air Force Service and rental charges to Annington 146 152 150 and Royal Navy also provide welfare support to injured Homes personnel while they are still in service. The Veterans Service and rental charges to PFI 21 23 24 Welfare Service also provides support to the dependants contractors of those who have died in service. The level of welfare Charge in lieu of council tax (CILOCT) 51 53 59 support offered to the families of Service Personnel Maintenance costs for reactive, pre-planned 136 147 126 maintenance and the strategic facilities killed or injured is the same regardless of the cause or programme where it occurs. I have provided in the following tables Upgrade programme costs to upgrade 19 30 40 data the SPVA Welfare Support Services hold on the properties to standard 1 condition support they have given in these circumstances. Substitute accommodation provided 18 18 23 through open market rental and bulk Death in service leasing April to March each year National Staff costs 19 16 17 2007-08 155 Gross cost 410 439 439 2008-09 193 Income received from occupants for the (125) (129) (138) property and CILOCT Total 348 Net cost to MOD 285 310 301 Seriously injured Accurate and consistent data for overseas Service April to March each year National England North East Family Accommodation is not held centrally. 2007-08 219 216 5 Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 98 79 7 Defence (1) what the average monthly rent is for Total 317 295 12 properties rented under the substitute single living Medical discharge accommodation scheme; [297362] April to March (2) how many (a) civil servants and (b) military each year National England North East personnel participate in the substitute single living 2007-08 614 513 45 accommodation scheme. [297386] 2008-09 836 677 41 Total 1,450 1,190 86 Mr. Kevan Jones: Substitute Service Single Accommodation (SSSA) is provided to members of the Armed Forces: Meat armed forces in cases where no single living accommodation is available at or near their permanent duty station. As at 23 October 2009, we rented 5,100 SSSA properties Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence across the UK at an average monthly rent of £738.93. from which countries (a) beef, (b) pork, (c) chicken, (d) lamb and (e) bacon has been procured for These were occupied by 6,376 entitled Service personnel. consumption by military personnel in each of the last The scheme does not extend to civilian personnel. three years. [296960]

Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Quentin Davies: Catering, Retail and Leisure Defence who is entitled to assistance under the (CRL) contracts are being introduced across the UK, substitute single living accommodation scheme. which include the feeding of service personnel living in [297387] UK units. These account for around 60 per cent. of service personnel fed. CRL incorporates pay as you Mr. Kevan Jones: All single and married unaccompanied dine arrangements, the responsibility for food procurement regular armed forces personnel are entitled to substitute is therefore passed to the CRL contractor and data are service single accommodation (SSSA) when: not held in the format requested. There is no suitable single living accommodation available. For UK armed forces personnel “in barracks” (when They are expected to stay in the SSSA for at least six months personnel are not being fed under the CRL contracts), and for not less than four nights each week. and those serving on operations and overseas exercises, They are serving within the UK. there is a single food supply contract for which the Armed Forces: Injuries following information is available:

Meat Country of origin Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many families of service personnel injured in Beef UK, Uruguay, Brazil, New Zealand/ combat overseas since 1997 have sought advice from Australia and other EU his Department on welfare and support in (a) Pork UK England, (b) the North East and (c) Middlesbrough Chicken UK, Brazil and other EU Lamb UK, Uruguay and New Zealand/ South and East Cleveland constituency. [296394] Australia Bacon, including Gammon UK and other EU Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held in the format requested and therefore it could be provided The county of origin given in the table is for the only at disproportionate cost. However, following the current financial year. Historical data relating to the formation of the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency country of origin are not held. 833W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 834W

Armed Forces: Training Departmental Official Visits

Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence how much on average it cost his Department (1) how much expenditure is expected to be saved to provide overnight accommodation for (a) Ministers through training of each Territorial Army (a) and (b) officials travelling (i) in the UK and (ii) squadron and (b) battalion; [295481] overseas in an official capacity in the latest period for (2) what estimate has been made of the likely effect which figures are available. [295648] of reductions in Territorial Army (TA) training on numbers of TA personnel; [295482] Mr. Kevan Jones: The information requested can be (3) how much expenditure is expected to be saved as found at the following link: a result of the proposed reduction in Territorial Army http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/propriety_and_ethics/ training; and how those savings were calculated. ministers.aspx [295485] The list includes the total cost of each visit made by all Ministers, detailing the number of officials accompanying Bill Rammell: As the Secretary of State for Defence them where non-scheduled travel was used, including announced on 28 October 2009, Official Report, column travel and accommodation. These details are available 354W, having listened to the representations both in for the last two financial years and prior to this the Parliament and elsewhere, the Government have decided information is published for Cabinet Ministers only. to provide an additional £20 million to the Army this There is not a Cabinet Office requirement for year to enable routine training for the TA to continue. Departments to report ministerial UK travel expenditure. The MOD records this information on the Department’s Army claims and financial systems, however, the data is not held in the requested format. This information could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) brigadiers and (b) generals Fraud were on the active list in the Army in each year since 1997. [294009] Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many employees of his Department were Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for convicted of an offence of fraud in each of the last 10 Defence how many generals of each rank there are in years. [297036] the Army. [296576] Bill Rammell: The information requested is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Bill Rammell: The number of Brigadiers and Generals cost. in the Army at 1 April each year since 1997 is provided in the following table. Gibraltar: Warships The ranks of Lt General and Major General have also been included in the table for clarity. Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) Royal Navy ships and (b) foreign Number military ships have docked in Gibraltar in each of the Paid rank last three years. [296958] Major 1 April General Lt General General Brigadier Bill Rammell: The number of ships that have docked in Gibraltar Naval Base in each of the last three complete 1997 5 10 43 170 years is provided as follows: 1998 5 10 41 180 2006: 72 Royal Navy and seven foreign 1999 6 7 48 180 2007: 59 Royal Navy and seven foreign 2000 7 8 47 180 2008: 52 Royal Navy and 12 foreign 2001 6 8 42 190 2002 6 9 37 180 2009: As of 28 October 2009, there have been 51 Royal Navy and five foreign naval visits. 2003 6 10 46 180 2004 6 10 42 180 Helicopter Carriers 2005 7 11 46 180 2006 8 9 43 180 Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 1 1 1 2007 6 12 42 180 Defence when HMS Ocean is expected to leave service 2008 16 116 144 1180 with the fleet. [296941] 1 April 2009 15 117 143 1190 1 Provisional. Bill Rammell: On present planning assumptions, HMS Notes: 1. The figures are for trained Regular Army only and therefore exclude OCEAN will be withdrawn from service in 2022. Gurkhas, Home Service battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment, Full Time Reserve Service, Mobilised Reserves, TA and all other Reserves. Nuclear Weapons 2. Due to the implementation of the new Joint Personnel Administration System all Army data from 1 April 2007 are provisional and subject to review. 3. Figures less than 100 have been left unrounded so as not to obscure the data. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 4. These figures are published regularly in TSP 9 which is available at: Defence for what reason his Department has removed www.dasa.mod.uk from public access at the National Archives papers on This information is held in the House of Commons the Nuclear Weapons programme which had Library. previously been released. [297020] 835W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 836W

Bill Rammell: Since 2002 a small number of departmental COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT nuclear files have been recalled, re-reviewed and found Community Relations: Finance to have included papers relevant to the operation of the current UK deterrent or of possible proliferation concern. Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for With the agreement of the Lord Chancellor and his Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Advisory Council, a small amount of material has answer of 23 April 2009, Official Report, column subsequently been removed from the files and retained 872W, on community relations: finance, how much within the Department. funding each organisation will receive from the Community Leadership Fund in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [297546] RAF Welford Mr. Malik: The Community Leadership Fund allocations for 2009-10 and 2010-11 broken down by organisation Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for are as follows: Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member Official Report, for North Devon of 30 April 2009, £ column 1408W, on RAF Welford: security, on what Organisation 2009-10 2010-11 date Ministry of Defence Police are expected to withdraw from RAF Welford. [296485] Al-Khoei Foundation 30,000.00 0.00 Al-Manaar 50,000.00 50,000.00 Bill Rammell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Ashram Housing Association 100,000.00 50,000.00 gave him on 17 November 2008, Official Report, column Bold Creative 60,000.00 70,000.00 153W. The Ministry of Defence police will not be Bradford Police Club 30,000.00 30,000.00 withdrawn from RAF Welford until the necessary security British Muslim Forum 13,495 0.00 enhancements have been put in place at the base by the Business in the Community 50,000.00 0.00 United States visiting force. I will write to the hon. Chiltern District Council 3,000.00 0.00 Member once this has been done and place a copy of Citizenship Foundation 50,000.00 40,000.00 the letter in the Library of the House. Dervish Arts 20,000.00 0.00 Ethnic Minority Benevolent 50,000.00 50,000.00 Association Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Faith Matters (three separate 182,337.50 0.00 Defence what the costs of maintaining a complement projects) of Ministry of Defence Police at RAF Welford were in Gateshead Interfaith Forum 9,925.00 0.00 the latest quarter for which figures are available; and GW Theatre 76,600.00 75,200.00 who met those costs. [296486] Halton Borough Council 3,000.00 0.00 Henna Foundation 52,525.00 68,250.00 Bill Rammell: Release of these costs would provide Kali 14,856.66 13,300.00 information on the level of policing at RAF Welford. I Karimia Institute 50,000.00 50,000.00 am therefore withholding this information for the purpose Khayaal Theatre 126,771.00 73,822.00 of safeguarding national security. However, I can confirm League of British Muslims 25,000.00 25,000.00 that the cost of maintaining a Ministry of Defence London Metropolitan University 60,000.00 0.00 Police presence at this site falls to the MOD Police and Mosques and Imams National 58,000.00 0.00 Guarding Agency. Advisory Board Muslim Welfare Association 3,000.00 0.00 Muslim Women’s Network UK 20,000.00 30,000.00 Territorial Army Muslim Youth Helpline 61,888.00 64,767.00 Rahabar Trust with the Urdu Times 22,500.00 12,500.00 Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Somali Family Support Group 15,645.00 33,780.00 Defence who his senior military adviser on the The Dialogue Society 33,850.00 32,700.00 Territorial Army is; and at what rank that advisor The Prince’s Trust 52,000.00 54,000.00 serves. [297480] Three Faiths Forum 15,000.00 0.00 Timebank (One20) 60,000.00 50,000.00 Ulfah Arts 10,000.00 20,000.00 Bill Rammell: The Chief of the General Staff, General Unity FM 38,760.00 33,760.00 Sir David Richards, is the senior military adviser on all Urban Nexus 94,400.00 72,100.00 Army matters, including the Territorial Army. Yorkshire and Humber BME Panel 30,000.00 25,000.00 Zakat Trust (Islamic Society of 20,000.00 0.00 Type 45 Destroyers Britain) Zakat Trust (Young Muslims UK) 20,000.00 0.00 Total 1,612,553.16 1,024,179.00 Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for what reason no Minister was present at the Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for launch of the Type 45 destroyer Defender on Communities and Local Government pursuant to the 21 October 2009. [297022] answer of 11 March 2009, Official Report, column 479W, on community relations, how much his Mr. Kevan Jones: I regret that a Minister was not in Department plans to spend on each type of national attendance; this was due to a range of factors, including Prevent-related project in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; unforeseen urgent parliamentary business. However, the and how much funding each organisation undertaking launch was attended by a number of senior personnel, such projects will receive for that work in each such led by the Commander-in-Chief Fleet. year. [297547] 837W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 838W

Mr. Malik: The Department supports Prevent-related Specific national projects supporting these areas of national projects in a number of areas including: building work and how much the Department plans to spend on community resilience; engaging and empowering young these in 2009-10 and 2010-11 is listed as follows: Muslims and Muslim women; local partnerships and delivery; faith capacity and leadership; communications; research and evaluation.

Funding in 2009-10 Funding in 2010-11 Specific project Organisation (£) (£)

Contextualising Islam in Britain Cambridge University 56,500 n/a Islam and Citizenship Education (this is CLG’s School Development and Support Agency 60,000 75,000 contribution. DCSF have also contributed jointly) Radical Middle Way (RMW) RMW 275,000 TBA Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board MINAB 208,000 TBA (MINAB) FSCU (Charity Commission) Charity Commission 300,000 TBA Piloting of the minimum standards for Muslim Faith Matters 64,130 n/a chaplains engaged by public institutions Muslim Faith Leader Training Review Gloucestershire University 159,850 n/a Improvement and Development Agency, Peer IDeA 316,518 TBA support and review Capacity building grant to help improve local Government Offices 750,000 750,000 Prevent delivery Creative Partnerships to promote positive alternative Creative Partnerships 250,000 250,000 activities for young people Communications toolkit for local partners: to Bold Creative 20,000 n/a support delivery of local Prevent communications National research projects: (a) Qualitative pilot Ethnos 52,065 n/a (b) Literature review Office for Public Management (OPM) 18,345 n/a (c) Understanding trends within Islam Community Relations Initiative Ipsos MORI/ 8,130 n/a BMRM Consortium (d) Citizenship Survey — — — National Muslim Womens Advisory Group: supporting three projects: (a) Role modelling Equal to the Occasion 61,980 20,150 (b) Civic participation Political Skills Forum 35,910 TBA (c) Examining the role of women from a theological TBA TBA TBA perspective Young Muslims Advisory Group Office for Public Management (OPM) 164,883 50,850 Rapid Evaluation Assessment De Montfort University 42,320 n/a Building community resilience through the Full list of organisations listed in Hansard: HL3068; 1,569,485 1,024,179 Community Leadership Fund answered 30 April 2009, Official Report, column WA44

Council Tax: East of England next has been in each county in the East of England in each year since 1999. [296173] Barbara Follett: Details of the year-on-year change Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for in average Band D council tax for the six county councils Communities and Local Government what the average in the East of England region are shown in the following change in the level of council tax from one year to the table.

£ 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Bedfordshire 52 52 91 122 92 59 66 61 64 — Cambridgeshire 62 58 106 97 86 54 59 62 64 56 Essex 60 63 86 155 67 40 57 58 58 35 Hertfordshire 57 49 83 163 67 57 59 63 61 49 Norfolk 51 59 93 149 75 39 62 64 59 46 Suffolk 55 57 108 182 53 36 56 57 59 39

The figures are calculated from data reported on the No figure is given for Bedfordshire for 2009-10 as, Budget Requirement (BR1 and BR2) forms submitted following the reorganisation of councils in that county annually by all billing and precepting authorities in from 1 April 2009, Bedfordshire county council ceased England. to exist. 839W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 840W

The underlying data used in calculating the annual (a) East change are calculated by dividing the sum of the council BA Commencement lists Completion notices tax requirement for all billing and precepting authorities East Hertfordshire No No in the county area by the average Band D council Stevenage Yes Yes taxbase for the county. No unitary authorities were North Hertfordshire No No included in the calculations and the data also exclude St. Albans No No the element of the police and fire authority council tax Dacorum No No requirement for the unitary authority areas. Luton No No Council Tax: Valuation Bedford No No Central Bedfordshire No No Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Cambridge No Yes Communities and Local Government which local South Cambridgeshire No Yes authorities in (a) the East of England and (b) the Peterborough No Yes West Midlands provide details of (i) building control East Cambridgeshire No Yes commencement lists and (ii) building control Fenland No Yes completion notices to the Valuation Office Agency; Huntingdonshire No Yes and whether the Valuebill/e-BAR interface is used in each case. [294084] (b) West Midlands BA Commencement lists Completion notices

Ian Pearson: I have been asked to reply. Bromsgrove Yes Yes Tables showing which local authorities within (a) the Wyre Forest Yes Yes East of England and (b) the West Midlands regions of Dudley Yes Yes England have provided building control commencement Redditch Yes Yes lists and building control completion notices to the Worcester Yes Yes Valuation Office Agency are shown in the following Wychavon No No tables. Herefordshire Yes Yes The Valuebill/e-BAR interface is not used for the Malvern Hills Yes Yes submission of building control commencement lists or Shropshire No No building control completion notices. Telford and Wrekin Yes Yes East Staffs Yes Yes (a) East Lichfield Yes Yes BA Commencement lists Completion notices Newcastle Yes Yes Thurrock Yes Yes Stafford Yes Yes Southend on Sea Yes Yes Staffs Moorlands Yes Yes Harlow Yes Yes Tamworth Yes Yes Epping Forest Yes Yes Stoke Yes Yes Brentwood Yes Yes Cannock Chase Yes. Yes. Basildon Yes Yes South Staffs No No Castle Point No Yes Walsall No No Rochford Yes Yes Wolverhampton Yes Yes Maldon Yes Yes North Warwickshire Yes No Chelmsford Yes Yes Nuneaton and No No Bedworth Uttlesford No No Rugby No No Braintree Yes Yes Stratford-upon-Avon No No Colchester Yes Yes Warwick No Yes Tendring No Yes Birmingham Currently no but about No Norwich No Yes to restart South Norfolk Yes Yes Coventry No Yes Great Yarmouth No Yes Sandwell No Yes Broadland Yes Yes Solihull Yes No North Norfolk Yes Yes Kings Lynn and West Yes Yes Norfolk Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Breckland No Yes Communities and Local Government whether the Ipswich No Yes Valuation Office Agency takes into account a nearby Suffolk Coastal Yes Yes Traveller encampment as a potential material Waverney No No consideration when valuing a dwelling for council tax Mid Suffolk No No purposes. [296990] Barbergh Yes Yes St. Edmundsbury Yes Yes Barbara Follett: If a Traveller encampment was in Forest Heath No Yes existence on 1 April 1993 (or 1 April 2005 in Wales), or Three Rivers No No was set up after that date and can be said to have Watford Yes Yes changed the physical state of the locality, it is a factor Hertsmere Yes Yes that can be taken into account when determining the Welwyn Hatfield No No council tax bands of other dwellings, providing that the Broxbourne No No existence of the camp is not transient. 841W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 842W

Departmental Cost Effectiveness Barbara Follett: The Government Actuary’s report on the firefighters’ pension schemes will be issued to the Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Firefighters’ Pension Committee in advance of its meeting Communities and Local Government what steps his on 18 November. Copies will be available from that date Department is taking to implement the efficiency also on the Communities and Local Government website, recommendations within the Operational Efficiency and be placed in the Library. Programme; and if he will make a statement. [296854]

Barbara Follett: My Department is fully engaged in Housing: Lighting delivering the Operational Efficiency Programme’s (OEP) agenda and is harnessing the support of our arm’s Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for length bodies to do so. Communities and Local Government if he will place in As recommended by the OEP report I have been the Library a copy of the report on the research appointed VfM Minister for the Department. commissioned by his Department on the proportion of The Department has made good progress in considering domestic light fittings which will operate with compact the key benchmarks to drive performance improvement fluorescent lamps. [294520] in back office functions as recommended in the OEP report and is awaiting the publication of that information. Barbara Follett: The Department has not commissioned It is also well engaged with the collaborative procurement research on the proportion of domestic light fittings agenda, and has established its own Collaborative which will operate with compact fluorescent lamps. Procurement Forum. My Department is represented on the OGC’s collaborative procurement steering group which reviews this type of activity in the wider public Local Government Finance: Tamworth sector, including the local authorities. Departmental Telephone Services Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) how much Tamworth borough council raised in council tax Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for revenue in each of the last five years; [297202] Communities and Local Government how many help lines his Department operates; and how much his (2) how much Tamworth borough council received Department and its predecessor have received from the from central Government in cash terms in each of the operation of such help lines in each of the last three last six years; [297203] years. [294975] (3) what the ratio between central Government funding and council tax revenue for Tamworth Barbara Follett: The Department for Communities borough council was in each of the last eight years. and Local Government do not have a specific helpline. [297204] However, it does have a public inquiry line which is a contracted non-automated service. Calls to this line are Barbara Follett: The information requested on central charged at national rates and no income is derived by Government grant in cash terms, the council tax the Department from these calls. requirement and the ratio between central Government grant and the council tax requirement in each of the last Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for eight years is shown in the following table. Communities and Local Government if he will consider the merits of securing accreditation of his Tamworth borough council Central Council tax Department’s helplines to the Helplines Association’s Government grant requirement quality standard; and if he will make a statement. (£000) (£000) Ratio [295729] 2001-02 4,973 2,055 2.42 Barbara Follett: The Department for Communities 2002-03 5,135 2,219 2.31 and Local Government does not have any plans to 2003-04 6,137 2,383 2.58 secure accreditation of its telephone information lines 2004-05 5,623 2,570 2.19 to the Helplines Association’s quality standard. At present, 2005-06 6,523 2,726 2.39 the Department has no helplines although it does have 2006-07 7,460 2,865 2.60 2007-08 7,615 3,040 2.50 a public inquiry service which responds to general inquiries 1 made to the Department. However, we are continually 2008-09 7,823 3,203 2.44 1 Provisional outturn, seeking to improve the levels of service we provide to Source: the public, and will investigate the benefits of such Communities and local government revenue outturn (RO) returns accreditation. Local authority council tax requirement is the council Fire Services: Pensions tax available to finance revenue expenditure, not council tax collected. Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Central Government grant is defined here as the sum Communities and Local Government pursuant to the of formula grant (revenue support grant and redistributed Answer of 2 June 2009, Official Report, column 585W, non-domestic rates) and specific grants inside aggregate on fire services: pensions, when he expects the external finance (AEF), i.e. revenue grants paid for Government Actuary’s report on firefighters’ pension council’s core services. For 2008-09 it also includes area schemes to be published. [296954] based grant (ABG). 843W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 844W

Figures exclude grants outside AEF (i.e. where funding Non-Domestic Rates is not for authorities’ core services, but is passed to a third party, for example, rent allowances and rebates), Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for capital grants, funding for the local authorities’ housing Communities and Local Government for what reasons management responsibilities and those grant programmes business revaluation transitional relief will not apply to (such as European funding) where authorities are simply supplementary business rates from April 2010. [294126] one of the recipients of funding paid towards an area. Comparisons across years may not be valid owing to Barbara Follett: Transitional relief is provided to changing local authority responsibilities. limit and phase in significant increases in business rate liability resulting from the regular five yearly revaluation Migration Impact Fund of business rates. The majority of business properties— 60 per cent.—will see their rates liability fall as a result Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for of the 2010 revaluation. The minority facing large Communities and Local Government pursuant to the increases will benefit from £2 billion worth of transitional written ministerial statement of 9 July 2009, Official relief. Report, column 50WS, on the migration impacts fund, Transitional relief is a national scheme which is funded how much the levy charged on each individual migrant by other business ratepayers. Extending it to increases will be; whether it will apply to (a) EU nationals, (b) resulting from the introduction of a local business rate EEA nationals not in the EU, (c) A2 nationals, (d) A8 supplement would raise the possibility of ratepayers in nationals and (e) asylum seekers; and in what parts of the country, where rateable values have gone circumstances in each case migrants will be (i) required down as a result of revaluation, being asked to pay for to pay and (ii) exempted from paying. [295837] relief on an increase which does not result from revaluation but is, instead, the result of a local business rate supplement Mr. Woolas: I have been asked to reply. that is not being levied in their area and, therefore, not Migrants pay a contribution to the migration impacts bringing any benefits to them. fund when making visa applications and in-country Any increase in a ratepayer’s liability due to a local extensions of leave to remain on all routes under PBS decision to levy a supplement on the business rate to Tiers 1, Tier 2, Tier 4, the Settlement Route, Leave to fund additional projects to promote the economic Remain, Indefinite Leave to Remain and Nationality. development of the local area is independent of revaluation The fund contribution is £50 per applicant. For 2010. Transitional relief is not, and has never been, applicants making a Tier 4 visa application the contribution intended to target increases in liability resulting from is £20. factors other than revaluation—for instance, increases EU nationals, EEA nationals not in the EU, A2 resulting from a property’s rateable value rising above nationals, A8 nationals and asylum seekers do not pay a the rateable value thresholds which determine whether contribution towards the Migrant Impacts Fund when it is eligible for other rate reliefs, or whether it is liable to making an application for leave to remain or indefinite pay a local supplement on the national non-domestic leave to remain. rate. Where a local authority exercises its discretionary All applicants, including EU nationals, EEA nationals power to levy a business rate supplement, it has discretion not in the EU, A2 nationals, A8 nationals and asylum to set the rateable value threshold below which a property seekers, pay a £50 contribution towards the migration is exempt from paying the supplement anywhere above impacts fund when making an application for British a minimum of £50,000 rateable value. nationality. Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Mortgages: Government Assistance Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 16 October Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009, Official Report, column 1131W, on non-domestic Communities and Local Government how many rates, whether the 2010-11 multipliers which will take people in Birmingham, Northfield constituency have into account the 2010 revaluation and negative level of (a) applied for and (b) been granted assistance under Retail Price Index inflation will be adjusted to entail a the Homeowners Mortgage Support Scheme; and if he cash terms (a) reduction in overall tax yield, (b) freeze in the overall tax yield and (c) increase in the overall will make a statement. [296277] tax yield; and what his most recent estimate is of the John Healey: Homeowners Mortgage Support is part level of business rates tax yield in 2010-11. [295733] of the range of assistance available at every stage to households struggling with their mortgage. The scheme Barbara Follett [holding answer 26 October 2009]: encourages lenders to allow households who have suffered The multipliers are set in accordance with Schedule 7 of a temporary income shock to defer some of their interest the Local Government Finance Act 1988 and the increases payment, if this is necessary to make their monthly in the business rates multipliers each year are capped by payment affordable. The Department plans to publish the previous September’s RPI. Under the same legislation, information in December on the number of households the multipliers will also be adjusted to ensure that the who have been helped through Homeowners Mortgage overall tax yield does not increase as a result of the 2010 Support. Statistics from the Financial Services Authority revaluation. The Government have no plans to amend show that more than 135,000 borrowers were benefiting the way that the multipliers are calculated. from forbearance offered by their lender at the end of The most recent estimate of business rates gross June 2009, an increase of 17 per cent. on the previous revenue for 2010-11 is £23,445,000,000. This is consistent quarter. with the figure in the consultation document “The 845W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 846W transitional arrangements for the non-domestic rating Barbara Follett: New legislation requiring disclosure revaluation”, published on July 8, 2009. The document of senior salaries in local authorities will come into can be found on the CLG website at: force on March 31 2010, requiring detailed disclosure of http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ remuneration in the statement of account for 2009-10 localgovernment/nndrrevaluation2010 onwards. The government’s response to the statutory This is a broad estimate and does not take account of consultation was published on October 22 2009 and can the impact that the September RPI inflation will have be found on the CLG website: on the multipliers, transitional relief or any other reliefs www.communities.gov.uk/publications/localgovernment/ applicable to businesses. 1364495 The five-yearly business rates revaluations make sure Roads: Lighting each business pays its fair contribution and no more by ensuring the share of the national rates bill paid by any one business reflects changes over time in the value of Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for their property relative to others. The 2010 revaluation Communities and Local Government what assessment will not raise a single extra penny for Government. he has made of the potential effect on (a) energy usage and (b) expenditure of the installation of Over a million properties will see their business rate environmentally-friendly LED street lights. [297000] liabilities come down as a result of revaluation. The Government intend to put in place a £2 billion relief Dan Norris: I have been asked to reply. scheme to limit the impact on the minority with bill increases. This is on top of the wider support available No analysis has been carried out specifically to estimate to help ease business pressures including discounted the energy usage and cost of LED street lighting. However, rate bills for small businesses and deferring tax payments. DEFRA is in the process of updating its 2008 consultation on sustainable products. The consultation is published Non-Domestic Rates: Empty Property via the Government’s Market Transformation Programme and more information is available on its website at: www.mtprog.com/cms/whitepaper Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the The updated paper includes a section on the energy answer of 13 July 2009, Official Report, column 131W, efficiency of street and traffic lighting and will be on non-domestic rates: empty property, whether the published shortly for consultation. rateable value threshold for empty property rate relief of £2,200 will be increased to reflect the average uplift Tenant Services Authority in rateable values consequent on the 2010 business rates revaluation. [297430] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government when the Tenant Barbara Follett [holding answer 2 November 2009]: Services Authority will cease operating under the legal The Government have already announced that the rateable powers granted to the Housing Corporation. [297428] value thresholds for small business rate relief, rural rate relief and stud farm relief will be increased in line with Mr. Ian Austin: We are working towards commencing the overall effect of the revaluation from 1 April 2010 the Tenant Services Authority’s new powers under the and will make an announcement on the rateable value Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 on 1 April 2010. threshold for empty property rates later this year. Tenant Services Authority: Public Consultation Planning Permission: Appeals Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government on what date the Communities and Local Government what criteria are statutory consultation on the Tenant Services applied in cases where he personally intervenes to fix a Authority’s standards framework will commence; and date for an appeal to the Planning Inspectorate. how long he expects it to last. [297427] [295634] Mr. Ian Austin: The Statutory consultation on TSA’s Mr. Ian Austin: Procedural guidance on inquiries is standards framework is due to commence this month. It on the Planning Portal website: is expected to run for 12 weeks. http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/pins/ Tony Clements procedural_guidance_planning_appeals.pdf A Good Practice Advice Note on bespoke casework Mr. Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for is also on the Planning Portal website: Communities and Local Government pursuant to the http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/pins/pins-gpa-5- answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 16 July 2009 bespoke-casework.pdf 2009, Official Report, column 656W, on Tony Clements, whether Mr. Clements was appointed to the Police: Pay post as Policy Adviser through a process of open competition; whether the job vacancy filled by Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Clements was advertised on the public part of the for Communities and Local Government when the Civil Service Recruitment Gateway; and whether his salaries of senior local authority officers will be position is subject to standard Civil Service terms and published; and if he will make a statement. [297085] conditions. [292981] 847W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 848W

Barbara Follett: Mr. Clements was recruited through With the exception of the Terrace cafeteria and the a fixed-term appointment, under one of the permitted Debate self-service restaurant, no information is kept exceptions for fair and open competition contained in on the level of usage of each outlet by different types of the Civil Service Commissioners’ Recruitment Principles. pass holders. An annual survey is conducted in the There is no automatic requirement to advertise such Terrace cafeteria and the Debate self-service restaurant appointments through open competition or on the public in order to assess the customer profile over a peak-lunch part of the Civil Service Recruitment Gateway, and this period. The last survey was held in May 2009, when post was not advertised through either route. This position usage of these outlets was as follows: is subject to standard Civil Service terms and conditions. Customer group Terrace cafeteria The Debate Number Percentage Number Percentage

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION (a) MPs 90 10 107 8 (b) Visitors 52 6 98 7 (accompanied House of Commons: Offices guests) (c) MPs’ Staff 146 16 580 43 Mr. Carswell: To ask the hon. Member for North (d) Staff of both 499 56 401 30 Houses/Security/ Devon, representing the House of Commons other full pass- Commission (1) how many unutilised square metres of holders office space there were on the House of Commons part (e) Member House 21291 of the parliamentary estate in each year since the of Lord opening of the 2005 Parliament; [296425] (f) Members’ Staff 16 2 45 3 (House of Lords) (2) how many empty offices there are on the House (g) Press & Media 21 2 5 — of Commons part of the parliamentary estate. [296426] (h) Other 50 6 104 8 Total 895 100 1,349 100 Nick Harvey: The number of vacant rooms on the House of Commons estate fluctuates constantly as requirements change or maintenance work is carried out. Only records of current vacancies are maintained. HOME DEPARTMENT At present there are 14 unoccupied offices on the estate with a total area of 230m2. Six of these offices are vacant to enable major roof works to take place in the Antisocial Behaviour Orders area known as the “Yellow Submarine”north of Speaker’s Court. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the There are 2,100m2 of, open plan offices leased in No. Home Department how many offenders have received 4 Millbank for use as decant space. Of this, 500m2 is an anti-social behaviour order plus sentence upon currently vacant, awaiting fit-out. conviction in England in the last three years. [293130] There are also 2,800m2 of vacant, open plan space which is the House of Commons’ area of No. 14 Tothill Mr. Hanson: Information on the number of antisocial street, a building leased in October 2007 and shared behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued is available up to with the House of Lords. This area will be fitted out 31 December 2007. The number of ASBOs issued following and available for use by the Department of Resources in conviction for a criminal offence at all courts in England autumn 2010. during 2005, 2006 and 2007 were 2,684; 1,671 and 1,228 respectively. Refreshment Dept: Finance Asylum Mr. Hayes: To ask the hon. Member for North Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission how much subsidy was provided for each Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) eatery and (b) bar in the House of Commons part the Home Department what percentage of (a) asylum of the Palace of Westminster in the latest period for applications and (b) applications for leave to remain which figures are available; and what the most recent were successful in each of the last five years; what estimate is of the level of usage of each such outlet by percentage of applications of each type which were (A) hon. Members, (B) visitors, (C) hon. Members’ refused were then granted following an appeal in each of those years; and if he will make a statement. staff and (D) House staff. [296137] [293060] Nick Harvey: The House does not provide a subsidy for individual eateries and bars. In 2008-09 the overall Mr. Woolas: Data on the number of applications for net cost incurred by the catering and retail directorate asylum and leave to remain and applications refused are in the Department of Facilities was some £6.1 million, available in the Home Office statistical bulletin “Control in accordance with the budget approved by the Finance of Immigration: Statistics United Kingdom, 2008”. This and Services Committee. This represents the difference publication and future publications may be obtained between income and the cost of the services provided. from the Library of the House and from the Home Food and drink pricing is agreed by the Finance and Office Research, Development and Statistics website at: Services Committee, with advice from the Administration http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Committee. stats.html 849W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 850W

Asylum Seekers Asylum: Young People Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department what progress his Department Home Department whether enforced returns were has made on its programme to reform support for suspended for any period of time for nationals or unaccompanied asylum-seeking young people. [295254] particular groups of nationals from (a) Iraq, (b) Somalia, (c) Eritrea, (d) Democratic Republic of Mr. Woolas [holding answer 27 October 2009]: The Congo, (e) Afghanistan and (f) Iran between 2000 UASC Reform Programme set out a number of reforms and 2009. [295060] to the way unaccompanied asylum-seeking children are supported. We are continuing to work with local authorities Mr. Woolas: The following information covers situations and others in a number of areas including: where there was a policy to suspend enforced returns developing a model of grant arrangements that provides more and situations where there was a policy to grant Exceptional clarity and certainty over funding; Leave to Remain (ELR) to all nationals of a particular exploring improvements to the method and process for assessment country, or part of it, who did not qualify for asylum age; and and which was an effective suspension of returns of considering how UASC and former UASC might be returned failed asylum seekers. to support arrangements in their countries of origin in a way that is safe and sustainable. There was an effective suspension of enforced returns The range of reforms and policy improvements we to all of Iraq from before 2000 until October 2000. are making are being progressed and implemented at From October 2000 until February 2003 returns to different stages. central and southern Iraq were suspended. From February 2003 enforced returns to all of Iraq were again suspended. Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for On 24 February 2004 the Home Secretary announced the Home Department what assessment his that enforced returns to Iraq were to resume. Department has made of the adequacy of its grant to There was an effective suspension of enforced returns local authorities to meet the costs of unaccompanied to the whole of Somalia since before 2000 until July asylum-seeking young people over the age of 16. 2001. From July 2001 until October 2002 the policy was [295255] varied enabling return of those from the Somaliland Mr. Woolas [holding answer 27 October 2009]: We and Puntland regions of Somalia. There has been no are satisfied the grant arrangements are adequate. suspension of enforced returns to any part of Somalia Local authority costs in supporting unaccompanied since 7 October 2002. asylum seeking children for the period up until the end Enforced returns to Eritrea have not been suspended of the financial year 2007-08 have been reimbursed in in this period. full as part of an agreement between the UK Border Enforced returns to the Democratic Republic of Congo Agency and the Local Government Association (LGA). were suspended from 23 August 2007 until 3 December Funding claims for the financial year 2008-09 are still 2008 pending the outcome of litigation. being checked. The grant for the financial year 2009-10 is very similar to the arrangements agreed with the There was an effective suspension of enforced returns LGA, with the exception that from October cash ceilings to Afghanistan from before 2000 until 11 July 2002. have been placed on indirect costs. There has been no suspension of enforced returns since Cheshire Constabulary: Construction that date. Enforced returns to Iran have not been suspended in Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State this period. for the Home Department what steps (a) Cheshire police and (b) executive agencies of his Department Asylum: Coventry are taking to (i) ensure that the supply chain completing the Pierse contracting construction project Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State is paid and (ii) alleviate the financial problems of small for the Home Department how many people resident in and medium-sized businesses involved in that project. Coventry were granted asylum in (a) 2008 and (b) [296989] 1997. [295341] Mr. Hanson: The management of local contracts is a matter for the chief officer and chair of the police Mr. Woolas [holding answer 27 October 2009]: The authority. information is as follows. Cocaine (a) During the calendar year 2008, the midlands and east regional asylum team granted 76 cases where the Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for the main applicant resided at a Coventry postcode (which Home Department what quantity of cocaine was includes some of the geographical area in the surrounding seized at (a) Gatwick and (b) Heathrow airports in county of Warwickshire). Grants of asylum may also each month between April 2008 and March 2009. have been made in other caseworking areas, but this [296478] additional data are not available in a specific regional Mr. Woolas: From April 2008 until March 2009, a format. The figure therefore only relates to applications total of 1,158.42 kilos of cocaine were seized by UKBA which were handled through the regional asylum team. officers working in the Border Force South Region, (b) Data for specific geographical areas was not which includes Gatwick airport and all ports along the recorded prior to the implementation of the new asylum South Coast. During the same period a total of 434.23 kilos model process in March 2007. There are therefore no of cocaine were seized by UKBA officers in the Heathrow specific data for this calendar year. region. 851W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 852W

The following tables provide a monthly breakdown maintain the historically high number of police officers of these seizures. and have the right workforce balance they need to South region deliver local priorities. Cocaine quantity (kilos) The Home Office takes wildlife crime seriously and has contributed £150,000 in 2009-10 towards the costs April 2008 62.50 of the National Wildlife Crime Unit, which provides May 2008 87.06 expert support to forces in investigation and enforcement June 2008 69.59 of wildlife crime. July 2008 165.42 August 2008 50.20 Departmental Fraud September 2008 167.11 October 2008 105.54 Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the November 2008 45.25 Home Department how many employees of his December 2008 43.97 Department have been convicted of an offence related January 2009 24.43 to fraud in each of the last 10 years. [295706] February 2009 299.88 March 2009 37.47 Mr. Woolas [holding answer 27 October 2009]: We Period total 1,158.42 are aware of 13 members of staff within Home Office HQ, the UK Border Agency, the Identity and Passport Heathrow region Service and the Criminal Records Bureau, who have Cocaine quantity (kilos) been convicted of an offence relating to financial fraud April 2008 26.16 in the last 10 years. May 2008 30.31 A breakdown by year is as follows: June 2008 77.08 July 2008 45.53 Number August 2008 32.91 September 2008 18.25 2000 0 1 October 2008 44.54 2001 — 1 November 2008 78.35 2002 — 1 December 2008 16.37 2003 — 1 January 2009 18.60 2004 — 1 February 2009 24.87 2005 — 1 March 2009 21.27 2006 — 1 Period total 434.23 2007 — 2008 1— The above data have been extracted from locally-collated 2009 (to 22 October) 1— management information. It is provisional and therefore 1 Less than five. may be subject to change. Where less than five members of staff were convicted in a calendar year further information has been withheld Crime: Nature Conservation on confidentiality grounds. Departmental Information and Communications Mrs. Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Technology Home Department how much funding has been provided to each police authority to tackle wildlife Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for crime in each year since 1997. [296064] the Home Department what IT systems have been in development for use within his Department in the last Mr. Alan Campbell: Total revenue provision for policing five years; what the reason for the development of each grants in 2009-10 is almost £9.5 billion, an overall system was; how much has been spent on the increase of 2.8 per cent. over 2008-09. The main element development of each system; and which systems have is general formula grant (£8.3 billion), which can be been subsequently (a) implemented, (b) terminated spent entirely at the discretion of police authorities—so prior to implementation and (c) terminated following the amount they spend on tackling wildlife crime is implementation. [290568] their decision. Chief constables and police authorities have maximum Mr. Woolas: The information requested is shown in flexibility to make best possible use of resources to the following table.

IT Systems in How much has been IT Systems development for use Reason for development spent on development IT Systems that have been terminated prior to IT Systems terminated within last five years of IT Systems of IT Systems implemented implementation post implementation

National identity Delivery of the Next £4.945 billion Programme is on Schedule, n/a n/a Scheme—IPS Generation Passport and planned total spend ( with implementation phases element ID Services including IT from end 2009 to 2013. Systems, IT enabled Business Transformation and operating costs.) Till 2013. 853W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 854W

IT Systems in How much has been IT Systems development for use Reason for development spent on development IT Systems that have been terminated prior to IT Systems terminated within last five years of IT Systems of IT Systems implemented implementation post implementation

EPA2 project Upgrade online passport £10.8 million capital Terminated prior to n/a application process in and £1.9 million implementation 6 May 2006 resource 2007.

Interview Office IT Systems to support £13.2 million Core IT system called n/a n/a Network interview of first time Planned Total ABIOS. Network passport applicants Infrastructure to 68 ION offices, integration to existing Passport Processing system

Digitisation of Vital Digitisation of General £8.33 million total Digitisation of approx 50 per n/a n/a Events Register Office project cost cent. of registration records. registration records Project now closed and a new project is being set-up to complete the digitisation work and to deliver an integrated technology suite. Records digitised in the DoVE project are currently being used by GRO for the production of certificates.

Registration On-Line General Register Office £17.6 million The RON system has been n/a n/a System for recording planned capital and rolled-out to all local birth, death, civil set-up costs authorities in England and partnership and marriage (projected through to Wales for civil partnerships, registrations—used by 2011) births and deaths. The GRO and Local marriage roll-out will Authorities. commence in November 2009.

Identity Cards for Infrastructure required to £13.2 million— November 2008 n/a n/a Foreign Nationals implement identity cards Planned total for foreign nationals, ongoing scheme building on existing systems wherever possible

Immigration Enable improvements to Programme Spend to The first pilot releases went n/a n/a Casework (ICW) processing of date: £55 million. live on 31 March 2009 and 3 immigration casework: August 2009 (as planned) specifically Improved further releases (three per efficiency Improve annum) are planned until quality and consistency 2014-15 of decisions Improve the service provided Implement more flexible IT systems

Agreed Programme Spend by end of 2015-16: £370 million.

Points Based System PBS is a simplified one- £39.8 million— July 2009, next release is due n/a n/a (PBS) stop migration process Planned total to October 2009. Final release for those who wish to 2010 scheduled for February 2010 work, train or study in the UK. Prospective migrants are judged using objective criteria to ensure consistency.

e-Borders E-Borders enables the The planned cost to Project IRIS, a pilot n/a n/a UK Border Agency to Government is £1.2 biometric automated barrier check people before they billion between entry system for pre- reach the UK.. financial years registered passengers at 2007-08 and 2017-18 selected ports in the UK was piloted from 20 June 2005 to May 2006. IRIS was transferred to operational business in July 2007.

E-Borders protects the Project Semaphore, an public, improving the operational prototype for the security, efficiency and main e-Borders Programme effectiveness of border which was transferred to controls by enabling us to operational business in April target criminals and 2008. illegal immigrants 855W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 856W

IT Systems in How much has been IT Systems development for use Reason for development spent on development IT Systems that have been terminated prior to IT Systems terminated within last five years of IT Systems of IT Systems implemented implementation post implementation

The Joint Border Operations Centre (JBOC) went live in January 2005, as the operational hub of Project Semaphore. Responsibility for the operation of the JBOC was transferred to Intelligence and National Operations Command on 1 June 2008, but remains closely aligned to the UK’s e-Borders programme. It continues to inform the design and development of e-Borders and to deliver operational benefits to stakeholders.

SBS Programme SBS built on the original £35.9 million total Expanded and enhanced n/a n/a ERP implementation project cost till 2011 enterprise resource planning programme to further (ERP) functionality, enhance both the implemented in progressive functionality and breadth releases between May 2008 of the Finance, HR and and April 2009. Procurement services in the Home Office for 23,000 users.

Vetting and Barring Modifications to the IT £22.8 million capital April 2009 n/a n/a Scheme systems of the Criminal and set up costs Records Bureau (CRB) planned over five to support the vetting years £20.3 million and barring scheme, operational costs established by the over five years. safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006. New casework management systems. £15.1 million expenditure to March 2009. Implementation is current and ongoing for these systems

Next Generation IST To assist the Home Spend to date is n/a n/a Transformation Office Group to deliver £3.12 million. Programme its objectives by giving (NGISTT) businesses the shared 1ST infrastructure and services they need to work together in the most productive and cost effective way and to safeguard their information assets. Planned investment (Extend and Blend) is £86 million. Future programme spend is yet to be determined.

Departmental Postal Services Mail services for the Criminal Records Bureau are provided under the PPP Agreement for the Disclosure Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for the processing service with Capita Business Services which Home Department which companies are under expires on 11 March 2012. contract to his Department to provide mail services; and when each such contract expires. [296086] The Department does not hold central courier contracts nor is information held centrally on all the couriers it Mr. Woolas: General mail services used by the Home uses. Services for TNT are contracted through the OGC Department are via the Royal Mail and the Government framework for courier services, which expires in Car and Despatch Agency. August 2012. Other firms which have been used by the Secure mail services for the Identity and Passport Department or its agencies either regularly or from time Service are contracted to DX Secure Mail Services. The to time include: contract expires in July 2010. 857W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 858W

Royal Mail Holdings plc A wide range of learning and development opportunities Secure Mail Services are available across the Department for officials and Pitney Bowes Inc. Ministers, many of which are focused on delivering FP Teleset value for money in Home Office activities. This includes specific value for money training for members for the A to Z Couriers Ltd. senior civil service as part of the wider finance improvement Dale Express Ltd. strategy that the Public Account Committee celebrated Kurier Ltd. recently (HoC 640). Fiveways Express Transport Ltd. Francotyp-Postalia Holding AG Departmental Telephone Services Deutsche Post AG Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government Car and Despatch Agency Home Department if he will consider the merits of Neopost SA securing accreditation of his Department’s helplines to Bonds Worldwide Couriers the Helplines Association’s quality standard; and if he The Courier and Passenger Transport Group Ltd. will make a statement. [295722] Postage by Phone Mr. Woolas: The Home Office Department has already Ing Groep N.V. rationalised many of its helplines and are moving to Horley Couriers ensure that call costs to its helplines are free or are kept Panic Express Carriers to a minimum. The Department seeks to align its telephony Die Schweizerische Post services to the guidance and rules set out by Ofcom, the Motor Cycle Despatch Services communications regulator which answers to Parliament FP Executive Agency Ltd. but is independent of Government. Ofcom is tasked with making sure that people in the UK get the best Lewis Day Transport plc from their communications services and has a general Kwik Kourier duty to further the interests of citizens and of consumers. Parcelforce Worldwide We also work closely with the Central Office of CT (UK) Ltd. T/A City Couriers Information (COI) which is the Government’s centre of Netfold Ltd. excellence for marketing and communications to ensure UK Couriers (Liverpool) Ltd. our telephone services are in line with industry standards A One Taxis and are aligned to the quality and service standards of other Government Departments. Kanga Couriers We will continue to seek ways to improve our telephony Hobarts Acrylics Ltd. services and will consider the merits of the Helpline City Cabs Association’s standards as well as other associations or Admail Holdings Ltd. bodies to ensure we strive to deliver a communications Lightning Transport Group Ltd. service (including telephony) that meets the public need. Rico Logistics Partnership Detainees Central Despatch. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for the Departmental Public Expenditure Home Department how many people were held in each immigration removal centre in 2008-09. [295629] Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Mr. Woolas: The requested information is not available; Department what steps his Department is taking to the Home Office has however published for the first implement the efficiency recommendations of the time in August 2009 the number of people entering each Operational Efficiency programme relating to his removal centre in the UK solely under Immigration Act Department; and what training is available to (a) powers in Q1 and Q2 2009. This information will be Ministers and (b) officials in his Department in respect published quarterly in the future; however data for of the delivery of value for money savings. [296006] earlier years will remain unavailable. This information is available in table 8a and 8b of the Control of Immigration Mr. Woolas: The Home Office is implementing the Quarterly Statistical Summary United Kingdom publication Operational Efficiency programme (OEP) as part of the available at: Department’s mainstream Value for Money programme. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/immiq209.pdf The Department has a strong record of delivery against and from the Library of the House. value for money targets demonstrating its sustained, National Statistics on how many people are detained long term commitment to this work. on a quarterly snapshot basis by place of detention is The Home Secretary has taken upon himself, the role available in table 9 of the above publication. of the Department’s value for money Minister. By the end of 2007-08, the Department achieved gains worth Driving Offences: Mobile Phones £2,855m per annum of which £1,552 million per annum was cashable. Following the publication of the OEP the Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Department has taken steps to benchmark back office Home Department how many people have been fined activities, as part of its renewed focus on securing for using mobile telephones while driving in (a) maximum cost-effectiveness in both direct and indirect England, (b) Teesside and (c) Middlesbrough South costs. and East Cleveland constituency since 2003. [296449] 859W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 860W

Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested on It is not possible to separately identify fines issued to court fines (provided by the Ministry of Justice) as well drivers in Teesside and Middlesbrough south as the as fixed penalty notices issued by the police for using data reported to the Home Office and Ministry of mobile telephones while driving in England and Cleveland Justice are broken down by police force area level only. police force area, covering 2003 to 2007 (latest available) is provided in tables A and B.

Table A: Fixed penalty notices issued1 for the offence of use of hand held mobile phone while driving2 by police force area, England and Wales, 2003-07 Number of offences Police force area 20032 2004 2005 2006 2007

England 1,888 70,494 122,748 158,605 115,406 North East Region3 69 2841 5327 6515 5271 Cleveland police force area 13 1,066 1,955 2263 1495 1 Covers tickets paid where there is no further action. 2 Offences under the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, Regulations 110 (1), 110 (2) and 110(3). Introduced 1 December 2003. 3 Includes Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria police force areas. Table B: The number of persons fined at all courts for offences of using a hand held mobile phone while driving1, in England, the North East Government Office Region2 and Cleveland police force area, from 2004 to 20073,4 Area 2004 2005 2006 20075

England 350 992 1,225 9,653 North East region 23 24 84 438 Cleveland police force area 1 5 9 86 1 Statute: Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 - R.110(1), R.110(2) and R.110(3). Introduced 1 December 2003. Offence description: R.110(1) use of a hand held mobile phone while driving; R.110(2) causing or permitting the use of a mobile phone while driving a motor vehicle R.110(3) using a mobile phone while supervising the holder of a provisional driving licence to drive a motor vehicle on the road. 2 Includes Cleveland, Durham and Northumbria police force areas. 3 The figures given relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, the offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 5 Tough new penalties for using a hand-held mobile phone while driving and for failing to have proper control of a vehicle came into effect on 27 February 2007. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform - Evidence and Analysis Unit.

Driving Under Influence: Cycling engine” under section 12 of the 1872 Licensing Act, in England and Wales from 2003 to 2007 (latest available) Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for the can be viewed in the following tables. Data for 2008 are Home Department how many people were (a) planned for publication at the end of January 2010. arrested, (b) charged and (c) convicted of being under The information requested on arrests is not collected the influence of alcohol or drugs while in charge of a centrally. The arrests collection held by the Home Office bicycle in each police authority area in England and covers arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) Wales in each of the last five years. [296445] only, broken down at a main offence group level, covering categories such as violence against the person and robbery. Mr. Alan Campbell: Information showing the number The alcohol related offences presented in the table are of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts and not notifiable offences and do not form part of the found guilty at all courts for the offences “Pedal cyclist arrests collection. driving under the influence of drink or drugs” under section 30 of the 1988 Road Traffic Act and “Being The Ministry of Justice do not centrally collect charging drunk in charge of a carriage (a bicycle is a carriage data; proceeded against information has been provided within the meaning of this Act), horse, cattle or steam in lieu.

Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts under the offences “Pedal cyclist driving under the influenceofdrinkor drugs”1 (section 30 of the 1988 Road Traffic Act) and “Being drunk while in charge on any highway or other public place of any carriage2, horse, cattle or steam Engine” (section 12 of the 1872 Licensing Act), in England and Wales, broken down by force3, 2003 to 20074, 5 Pedal cyclist driving under the influence of drink or drugs1 Proceeded against Found guilty Force 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

13713 Avon and Somerset 1233—1233— Bedfordshire — 2———— 2——— Cambridgeshire ———— 1———— 1 City of London 1 — — 1 — 1 — — 1 — Cleveland——— 1———— 1— Cumbria 1121—1121— Derbyshire12112121—1 861W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 862W

Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts under the offences “Pedal cyclist driving under the influenceofdrinkor drugs”1 (section 30 of the 1988 Road Traffic Act) and “Being drunk while in charge on any highway or other public place of any carriage2, horse, cattle or steam Engine” (section 12 of the 1872 Licensing Act), in England and Wales, broken down by force3, 2003 to 20074, 5 Pedal cyclist driving under the influence of drink or drugs1 Proceeded against Found guilty Force 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Devon and Cornwall 2 — — 1 1 2 — — 1 1 Dorset 1111—1111— Durham1—12—1—11— Essex — 2 1 3—— 2— 3— Greater Manchester 7 2 1 —2621—1 Hampshire 4323132221 Hertfordshire1281112811 Humberside 3 —1121—112 Kent 2—— 2— 1—— 2— Lancashire —2111—211— Leicestershire 1 — 1 — — 1 — 1 — — Lincolnshire — — — 1 2——— 1 1 Merseyside —2124—2124 Metropolitan Police 4435243142 Norfolk—111———11— NorthYorkshire— 1———— 1——— Northumbria 7676464554 Nottinghamshire — — 1———— 1—— South Yorkshire 1——— 1———— 1 Staffordshire——— 2———— 2— Suffolk 2 1—— 2 2 1—— 1 Surrey 2———— 1———— Sussex 1122—1122— Thames Valley 1 — 1 — 1 1 — 1 — — Warwickshire——— 2———— 2— WestMercia1323313233 West Midlands 1132711315 WestYorkshire—1111—1—1— Wiltshire 1—— 1———— 1— Dyfed-Powys—3331—3321 Gwent 1— 3—— 1— 2—— NorthWales3—— 2— 3———— South Wales 4 2 — —112——1 England and Wales 55 45 51 55 40 43 40 44 46 31

Being drunk while in charge on any highway or other public place of any carriage2, horse, cattle or steam engine Proceeded against Found guilty Force 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

14102 Avon and Somerset 1 2 1 — 1 — 2 1 — — Bedfordshire 1 — 1 1 — 1 — 1 1 — Cambridgeshire — 1 — 2 — — 1 — 2 — Cheshire — — — 4———— 4— City of London — — — 1———— 1— Cleveland—— 1———— 1—— Cumbria 1441—1441— Derbyshire——— 4 1——— 2 1 Durham1—42—1—42— Essex —2211—1211 Gloucestershire — — — 1—————— Greater Manchester 1212111121 Hampshire 6 1 —1131—11 863W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 864W

Being drunk while in charge on any highway or other public place of any carriage2, horse, cattle or steam engine Proceeded against Found guilty Force 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Hertfordshire—2—11—1—11 Kent 1—1—11—1—1 Lancashire 2222111—2— Leicestershire — 1 1——— 1 1—— Lincolnshire — — 1 1——— 1—— Merseyside 1334113221 Metropolitan Police 8 5 15 88641564 Norfolk ——— 2 1——— 2 1 NorthYorkshire—6232—5232 Northamptonshire — 1———————— Northumbria 5 16 14 14 12 5 14 13 13 10 Nottinghamshire — — 2 1——— 2—— South Yorkshire ———— 2———— 2 Staffordshire1111—1———— Suffolk ———— 1———— 1 Surrey 1—— 1— 1—— 1— Sussex ———— 1———— 1 Thames Valley 1 1 — 1 — 1 1——— Warwickshire— 1———— 1——— WestMercia2342222412 West Midlands 4641236411 WestYorkshire2 1— 4— 2—— 1— Wiltshire2211—2211— Dyfed-Powys— 1———————— NorthWales2———— 1———— England and Wales 43 64 65 67 40 34 51 60 51 31 —=Nil. 1 The number of persons proceeded against and found guilty for driving under the influence of drinks or drugs cannot be separately identified under this statute. 2 A bicycle, whether ridden or pushed, is a carriage within the meaning of this Act. The number of persons proceeded against or found guilty of being drunk in charge of a carriage cannot be separated from those involving a horse, cattle or steam engine. 3 Nil data applies if a Police Force Area is not listed in the above tables. 4 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 5 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Ref: IOS 510-09

Drugs: Smuggling The number of offenders issued with a caution and the number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for offences relating James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for to the unlawful importation or exportation of drugs in the Home Department how many people have been (a) England and Wales, from 1998 to 2007 (latest available) cautioned, (b) prosecuted and (c) convicted of is given in tables 1 and 2 respectively. offences relating to the unlawful importation or The number of defendants given the maximum available exportation of drugs in each of the last 10 years; and custodial sentence for offences relating to import or how many of those convicted received the maximum export of a controlled drug in England and Wales, from available sentence. [296659] 1998 to 2007, is given in table 3. Court proceedings data for 2008 are planned for Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. publication at the end of January 2010.

Table 1: Number of offenders cautioned1 for offences relating to the unlawful importation or exportation of controlled drugs, England and Wales, 1998 to 20072, 3 Statute/offence description 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Customs and Excise 291653169151011 Management Act 1979: Offence in relation to the unlawful ‘importation’ of a drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 865W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 866W

Table 1: Number of offenders cautioned1 for offences relating to the unlawful importation or exportation of controlled drugs, England and Wales, 1998 to 20072, 3

Statute/offence description 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Customs and Excise 581116684246 Management Act 1979: Offence in relation to the unlawful ‘exportation’ of a drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971

1 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been included in the totals. 2 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time, the principal offence is the more serious offence. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform: Evidence and Analysis Unit. Table 2: Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty at all courts for offences relating to the unlawful importation or exportation of controlled drugs, England and Wales, 1998 to 20071, 2, 3, 4

1998 1999 2000 2001 2002

Statute/ offence Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found description against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty

Customs and 1,300 1,190 1,280 1,171 1,201 1,165 1,752 1,648 1,624 1,599 Excise Management Act 1979: Offence in relation to the unlawful ‘importation’ of a drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971

Customs and 112 59 74 25 51 40 22 30 30 21 Excise Management Act 1979: Offence in relation to the unlawful ‘exportation’ of a drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971

2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Statute/ offence Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found description against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty

Customs and 1,081 1,063 945 975 1,057 1,026 874 835 818 783 Excise Management Act 1979: Offence in relation to the unlawful ‘importation’ of a drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 867W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 868W

2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 Statute/ offence Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found Proceeded Found description against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty against guilty

Customs and 28 18 18 37 25 35 30 35 38 36 Excise Management Act 1979: Offence in relation to the unlawful ‘exportation’ of a drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Staffordshire police force were only able to submit sample data for persons proceeded against and convicted in the magistrates courts for the year 2000. Although sufficient to estimate higher orders of data, these data are not robust enough at a detailed level and have been excluded from the table. 4 Where the ‘found guilty’ column exceeds the ‘proceeded against’ column it may be the case that a defendant was found guilty at the Crown court in the year following the year in which proceedings took place, or the defendant was found guilty for a different offence to that proceeded against. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform: Evidence and Analysis unit.

Table 3: Defendants given maximum available custodial sentence for offences relating to import or export of controlled drug1, 1998 to 2007 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Import2 1————— 1——— Export3 —————————— 1 Customs and Excise Management Act 1979. Offences in relation to the unlawful importation/exportation of a drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. 2 Maximum available sentence for import of class A or other class is life imprisonment, for class B and C it is 14 years. 3 Maximum available sentence for export of class A or other class is life imprisonment, for class B and C it is 14 years. Note: These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Source: OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice.

Entry Clearances applications by European nationals for permanent residence. [293114] Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has taken account of Mr. Woolas: The length of time taken by UK Border the published anti-Semitic views of any individuals Agency to determine applications submitted by European seeking to enter the United Kingdom when deciding nationals for permanent residence is subject to a number whether to grant entry to such individuals in the last of factors—both internal and external to the Agency. 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [283707] Internally UK Border Agency has had to refocus resource and this has impacted on the Agency’s ability to deal Mr. Woolas: I would refer the hon. Member to the with applications as quickly as we would wish. Externally, answer I gave on 11 March 2009, Official Report, column the number of incomplete applications received has led 462W and would re-affirm that where there is clear, to delays in the caseworking process. reliable evidence that a person has engaged in unacceptable On both counts, we have introduced a number of behaviour, which would include inciting racial or religious measures in the past six months to improve performance. hatred, consideration will be given to whether or not The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations that person should be refused entry to the United 2006 stipulate this documentation should be issued as Kingdom. soon as possible after an application and proof of This may be at the entry clearance application stage, entitlement have been submitted. If an application is where applicable, or when a person arrives at the port of not submitted with adequate supporting evidence then entry. In certain cases the Home Secretary may personally delays are necessarily incurred as that information is decide that a person should be excluded from the United obtained. Kingdom. Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for the Figures on the number of refusals of entry to the Home Department how many civil and unmarried United Kingdom on the basis of the published anti-Semitic partners of UK residents who are from outside the views of individuals are not recorded centrally. European Economic Area have been admitted to the UK in each of the last five years. [295688] Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the reasons are for the time Mr. Woolas [holding answer 26 October 2009]: The taken by the UK Border Agency to process available information is provided in the following table. 869W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 870W

Statistics on passengers given leave to enter the United European Economic Area (EEA) from the UK on the Kingdom by purpose of journey are published in table grounds of unacceptable behaviour. During the same 1.2 of the Home Office publication “Control of period, two EEA nationals have been refused admission Immigration: Statistics United Kingdom 2008” which is on public policy grounds linked to their advocacy of available from the Library of the House and from the racial or religious hatred. Home Office Research, Development and Statistics website Entry Clearances: Russia at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the stats.html Home Department what assessment he has made of Passengers1, 2 entering the United Kingdom as civil and unmarried partners, the efficiency of the system for visa applications in 2004-08, United Kingdom operation in Moscow. [296266] Number of journeys 20043 2005 2006 20074 20085 Mr. Woolas: During June and July it took 15 working days to process short-term visa applications (for stays 6 Total civil partners n/a n/a 105 1,890 1,955 of up to 12 months), and 28 days to process student visa Of which: applications (under Tier 4 of the Points Based System). Proposed civil partner n/a n/a 5 * 5 The relevant agreed global targets are: Civil partner admitted for n/a n/a 100 1,890 1,930 Straightforward, non-settlement applications: 90 per cent. to a probationary period be processed in five working days, and 98 per cent. in 15. Civil partner given n/a n/a — — 20 indefinite leave to enter Non-straightforward non-settlement applications (includes those under PBS): 90 per cent. to be processed in 15 working days, 98 per cent. in 30. Total unmarried partners7 90 115 290 190 335 The extended processing times were publicised at the Of which: time via the Russian Commercial Partner’s website, and Common law spouse 45 55 110 110 295 through the Moscow UK Border Agency User Panel, admitted for a probationary period8 with visa applicants encouraged to apply in good time Same sex partner 50 55 185 80 40 in advance of proposed travel dates. admitted for probationary In order to ensure that students were able to travel to period9 commence their courses on time, a dedicated team of n/a = Not applicable. 1 Figures rounded to the nearest 5 (— = 0, *=1or2).Figuresmaynotsumto ECOs was set up to deal with student applications. the totals shown because of independent rounding. Other visa applications were also prioritised, where 2 Excludes EEA and Swiss nationals. appropriate, and applications in the following categories 3 Includes nationals of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia before 1 May 2004, but generally processed within the global target of five excludes them from this date. working days i.e. applications from (a) previous travellers, 4 Excludes Bulgaria and Romania. (b) the four Regional Visa Application Centres outside 5 Provisional figures. 6 The Civil Partnership Act 2004 came into force on 5 December 2005. Moscow (acknowledging the longer transit time), and 7 In table 2.1 of Control of Immigration Statistics United Kingdom 2008 the (c) business people enrolled in a local Trusted Partner figure for ‘civil and unmarried partners and proposed civil partners’ for 2006 excludes unmarried partners. This will be corrected in table 1 of Control of scheme. All backlogs were cleared by the end of September. Immigration Statistics Summary, United Kingdom July to September 2009, A full staffing complement of five ECMs and 14 ECOs scheduled for publication on 26 November 2009. is now in place. 8 Includes common-law spouse of a diplomat admitted for a probationary period. Forensic Science Service 9 Includes same sex partner of a diplomat admitted for a probationary period. Source: Migration Statistics, Home Office. Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate he has made of any Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for likely cost savings arising from the proposed closure of the Home Department how many people were denied Forensic Science Service sites. [296132] entry to the UK because of concerns about their extremist views in the last 12 months. [295865] Mr. Alan Campbell: The primary goal of the FSS transformation is to build a more robust and resilient Mr. Woolas: A decision to deny entry to the UK may business that is both profitable and fully able to respond be made at the entry clearance application stage, or to the changing needs of our customers. The FSS has when a person arrives at the port of entry. Additionally, produced a business case which will deliver significant denial of entry may include individuals who have either savings in the future years. The figure is commercially been deported from, or removed and subsequently excluded sensitive and dependent upon the success of the FSS in from, the United Kingdom and in certain cases the competing for and retaining customer’s business. Home Secretary may personally decide that an individual Immigration should be excluded from the United Kingdom on unacceptable behaviour grounds. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the There are no centrally held records which encompass Home Department what steps his Department takes at the total number of foreign nationals who have been the border to handle migrants denied entry to the UK. denied entry to the UK because of concerns about their [296211] extremist views, but the Government’s unacceptable Mr. Woolas: When an individual is refused entry to behaviours policy is directed at those who advocate the United Kingdom, they are liable to be removed by hatred or violence in support of their beliefs. the first available service to (a) the country from which I can confirm that since October 2008 the Home they travelled, or (b) a country where they are admissible. Secretary has excluded 27 individuals from outside the After completion of satisfactory risk assessments, the 871W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 872W individual will either be detained or granted conditional Police Cautions temporary admission until removal can be effected. Individuals who are refused entry at our juxtaposed Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the controls in northern France and Belgium are served Home Department (1) how many offenders have with written notices explaining the reasons why they received a police caution in each year since 1997; have been denied entry to the UK. Responsibility for [296363] the individual is then passed to the relevant host authority. (2) how many offenders received (a) one, (b) two, Immigration Controls (c) three and (d) four or more police cautions between 1997 and 2009; [296369] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) how many offenders received (a) one, (b) two, the Home Department what recent discussions he has (c) three and (d) four or more police cautions in each had with (a) his French counterpart and (b) his other year since 1997. [296370] EU counterparts on UK border security and migration policy. [293797] Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. Mr. Woolas: The UK, French and other EU The information requested is shown in the following Governments maintain regular contact in the area of tables. Data prior to 2000 has not been included. UK border security and migration. On 22-24 June 2009 Table 1 shows the number of people cautioned on at the Home Secretary made introductory calls to his least one occasion in each calendar year from 2000, and counterparts in Spain, Germany and Sweden. He discussed provides a breakdown of this total by the number of amongst other issues the UK position on the Stockholm times each person was cautioned in the year. Programme which encompasses border security and migration policy. Table 1: Numbers of people cautioned by calendar year Number of people cautioned on: On 21 September the Home Secretary attended the Total Justice and Home Affairs Council in Brussels, along number of with all of his European counterparts. European Ministers people cautioned Four or discussed a range of issues including European asylum at least Only one Two Three more policy and how to strengthen the management of migration once in occasion in occasions occasions occasions flows in the Mediterranean. The Home Secretary had year year in year in year in year bilateral discussions with some of his counterparts in 2000 238,746 210,490 21,842 3,934 2,480 the margins of the Council, including with the French 2001 237,337 210,012 21,140 3,891 2,294 Minister for Immigration, Integration, National Identity 2002 239,325 213,191 20,733 3,444 1,957 and Solidarity-based Development, Eric Besson. I met 2003 253,884 226,407 21,904 3,610 1,963 with Eric Besson, the French Minister for Immigration, 2004 260,797 230,100 24,251 4,141 2,305 Integration, National Identity and Solidarity-based 2005 302,845 265,660 29,335 5,149 2,701 Development at the UK-France summit in Evian on 2006 346,486 301,443 35,369 6,252 3,422 6 July 2009. where we both committed to further action 2007 360,749 312,192 38,280 6,824 3,453 to combat illegal immigration, including through 2008 329,199 285,687 34,785 5,714 3,013 strengthening security at the shared border and taking resolute action to reduce the pull factors for illegal immigrants and criminal networks. Table 2 shows the number of people that have been cautioned on at least one occasion at any time between Overseas Students: Entry Clearances 2000 and 2008, and the breakdown of this total by the number of times each person has been cautioned over Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the this time period. Home Department what percentage of applications Table 2: Numbers of people cautioned between 2000-08 from (a) Chinese, (b) Indian, (c) Pakistani, (d) Number of people with cautions Bangladeshi and (e) US nationals for a student visa Caution occasions between 2000-08 were rejected between July and September 2009. One 1,639,891 [293961] Two 397,458 Mr. Woolas [holding answer 19 October 2009]: The Three 104,915 percentage of applications from (a) Chinese, (b) Indian, Four or more 51,874 (c) Pakistani, (d) Bangladeshi and (e) US nationals Total 2,194,138 for a student visa that were refused between July and September 2009 is shown in the following table. These figures have been drawn from the police’s administrative IT system, the police national computer PBS Tier 4 - Student visa applications 1 July 2009 to 30 September 2009 (PNC), which, as with any large scale recording system, Nationality Refusal rate (percentage) is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Bangladesh 10 The figures are provisional and subject to change as China 7 more information is recorded by the police. India 17 Pakistan 30 James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for United States 7 the Home Department how many people have received Note: police cautions for the offences of (a) taking, This data is unpublished and should be treated as provisional Source: permitting to be taken, or making distributing or Central Reference System publishing indecent photographs or pseudo- 873W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 874W photographs of children and (b) possessing an Police: Pay indecent photograph or pseudo-photograph of a child in each of the last five years. [296654] Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what allowances are paid to chief Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. constables; what criteria apply to the payment of such The number of persons issued with a caution for allowances; how much was paid to the Chief Constable offences of taking, permitting to be taken, or making, of Essex Police in allowances in each of the last three distributing or publishing indecent photographs of children years; and if he will make a statement. [296614] and possession of an indecent photograph or pseudo- photograph of a child in England and Wales, from Mr. Hanson: The nationally determined chief police 2003-07 (latest available) is given in the following table. officer pay and allowances are agreed by the Police Data for 2008 are planned for publication at the end Negotiating Board and, for England and Wales, given of January 2010. effect through the Police Regulations 2003 and Number of offenders cautioned1, 2 for offences of taking, or possession of, an Home Secretary Determinations made under those indecent photograph of a child, England and Wales, 2003-073 regulations. I have placed in the Library of the House a Offence description 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 consolidated set of the Determinations. It is for police authorities to determine individual chief officer allowances Take, permit to be 239 201 195 168 185 taken, or to make, in accordance with legislative requirements and their distribute or duty to ensure the maintenance of an efficient and publish indecent effective force for their area. Information on chief officer photographs or pseudo- allowances determined by police authorities is not held photographs of centrally. children4 Possession of an 205 162 151 147 142 indecent Police: Tamworth photograph or pseudo-photograph of a child5 Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force Home Department what progress has been made nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been included in the towards delivering the policing pledge in Tamworth. totals. [296115] 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time, the principal offence is the more Mr. Hanson: It is for individual police forces and serious offence. authorities to ensure delivery of the Policing Pledge in 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted their area. The Government will hold forces to account from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police for progress through the single top-down target we have forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection set them to improve public confidence that crime and processes and their inevitable limitations. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are antisocial behaviour are being tackled locally, and in taken into account when those data are used. the light of inspection work by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate 4 Offences under the Protection of Children Act 1978, section 1 and section 6 of Constabulary (HMIC). as amended by the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, section 84 and Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000 S.41(1). In October, HMIC published a report on the progress 5 Offences under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 sec.160 as amended by the Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000. of all forces in delivering the pledge. Although information Source: is not available specifically for Tamworth, the report Office for Criminal Justice Reform: Evidence and Analysis Unit. graded Staffordshire police as ‘fair’. HMIC identified that the force regularly keep the public informed about Police: Complaints action taken to address local concerns and that they were dealing well with non-emergency calls. It also Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for the identified that more could be done to ensure a quicker Home Department how many complaints of excessive response to public dissatisfaction and calls to use of force by police there were in (a) England, (b) neighbourhood teams. We now look to all forces and the North East, (c) the Tees Valley and (d) police authorities to respond quickly to HMIC’s Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland in each of findings and deliver the pledge consistently for their the last five years. [296399] community.

Mr. Hanson: The Home Office does not collect this Police: Termination of Employment information. The Police Reform Act, 2002 places a duty on all Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for police forces to record all complaints made by members the Home Department how many (a) police officers of the public about the conduct of those serving with and (b) police community support officers (i) were the police. The Independent Police Complaints Commission dismissed and (ii) resigned in each local authority area (IPCC) is responsible for the collation and publication in each year since 2002. [296353] of complaints statistics for England and Wales. It has done so since it was established in 2004. Mr. Hanson: Police personnel data are not collected Excessive force is not a category used in the collation centrally at local authority area level. The available and publication of the IPCC’s statistics. It is a matter force-level data have been collected since 2002-03 and for each force to retain such information. are given in the following tables. 875W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 876W

Police Officer and PCSO dismissals and resignations by police force (full-time equivalent)1, 2002-03 to 2008-092 Full-time equivalent 2002-033 2003-04 Police Officer PCSO Police Officer PCSO Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Force name resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals

Avon and 11 1 n/a n/a 52 3 0 0 Somerset Bedfordshire 22 2 0 0 39 0 0 0 Cambridgeshire 22 4 0 0 23 2 3 0 Cheshire 10 2 0 0 21 0 3 0 Cleveland 3 5 0 0 23 3 1 0 Cumbria 9 2 0 0 11 1 0 0 Derbyshire 14 4 0 0 21 3 0 0 Devon and 22 7 0 1 13 3 3 1 Cornwall Dorset 11 2 0 0 18 1 0 0 Durham 4 0 1 0 19 1 2 0 Essex 12 n/a n/a n/a 36 3 4 0 Gloucestershire 10 n/a n/a n/a 16 2 3 0 Greater 43 3 1 1 126 11 20 5 Manchester Hampshire 35 3 0 0 68 6 0 0 Hertfordshire 28 3 0 0 56 4 1 0 Humberside 20 1 0 0 29 3 n/a n/a Kent 37 0 0 0 72 1 1 0 Lancashire 17 6 0 0 28 5 6 0 Leicestershire 20 0 0 0 35 1 7 2 Lincolnshire 10 0 1 0 16 1 8 1 London, City of 19 1 0 0 12 0 0 0 Merseyside 22 3 0 0 34 7 10 0 Metropolitan 453 19 11 1 552 22 110 5 Police Norfolk 9 1 0 0 10 1 2 1 Northamptonshire 9 0 1 0 26 2 1 0 Northumbria 35 3 0 0 29 6 0 0 North Yorkshire 11 0 0 0 15 3 n/a n/a Nottinghamshire 12 1 0 0 13 1 0 0 South Yorkshire 36 3 0 0 46 1 3 0 Staffordshire 7 1 0 0 27 6 1 0 Suffolk 14 1 0 0 28 2 0 0 Surrey 27 0 0 0 34 7 6 1 Sussex 35 0 0 0 124 6 8 2 Thames Valley 64 4 0 0 71 1 1 0 Warwickshire 14 1 0 0 19 2 4 0 West Mercia 18 0 0 0 27 4 4 1 West Midlands 89 11 0 0 107 4 1 0 West Yorkshire 34 6 0 0 46 6 18 1 Wiltshire 18 3 0 0 18 0 1 0 Dyfed-Powys 5 1 0 0 9 1 n/a n/a Gwent 1 1 0 0 15 0 9 1 North Wales 7 0 0 0 22 0 0 0 South Wales 20 3 0 0 21 4 4 0 Total 1,317 108 15 3 2,026 140 246 21

Full-time equivalent 2004-05 2005-06 Police Officer PCSO Police Officer PCSO Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Force name resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals

Avon and 40500774210 Somerset Bedfordshire 3542025040 Cambridgeshire 34 4 15 1 26 2 16 0 Cheshire 2622037360 Cleveland2047024350 Cumbria 1500011241 877W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 878W

Full-time equivalent 2004-05 2005-06 Police Officer PCSO Police Officer PCSO Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Force name resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals

Derbyshire2000020310 Devon and 3132044060 Cornwall Dorset2034122341 Durham1910015160 Essex 66 2 14 0 79 9 32 0 Gloucestershire 1608019292 Greater 128 5 13 0 186 21 21 0 Manchester Hampshire 4750064660 Hertfordshire 54 2 11 0 55 2 21 1 Humberside 3601031400 Kent60091663161 Lancashire 42 2 14 0 26 3 37 0 Leicestershire36130453110 Lincolnshire 19090200110 London, City of 1110011021 Merseyside 38 9 11 0 83 10 20 1 Metropolitan 422 32 234 14 337 28 378 23 Police Norfolk1323022171 Northamptonshire 3001024120 Northumbria 34230382171 NorthYorkshire18014017280 Nottinghamshire 2519114140 South Yorkshire 5705040450 Staffordshire4332024291 Suffolk2631014450 Surrey32216137561 Sussex 113 2 21 6 82 5 34 1 Thames Valley 100 1 0 0 131 8 21 2 Warwickshire 15250122120 WestMercia2122019440 West Midlands 119 18 4 0 137 8 26 2 West Yorkshire 72 2 55 1 89 5 68 0 Wiltshire 24160260120 Dyfed-Powys1710012350 Gwent17221203111 NorthWales1710027320 South Wales 18 3 11 0 29 3 11 2 Total 2,042 133 516 27 2,134 178 904 43

Full-time equivalent 2006-07 2007-08 Police Officer PCSO Police Officer PCSO Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Force name resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals

Avon and 35 1 18 0 48 1 30 5 Somerset Bedfordshire 23580311270 Cambridgeshire 28 1 13 0 12 4 24 1 Cheshire 24 4 15 0 17 3 13 5 Cleveland 25 0 12 0 23 2 13 0 Cumbria 17050111220 Derbyshire41570394333 Devon and 34491382222 Cornwall Dorset19310126220 Durham16090191272 Essex 81 5 38 2 73 1 41 0 Gloucestershire 20290180131 879W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 880W

Full-time equivalent 2006-07 2007-08 Police Officer PCSO Police Officer PCSO Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Voluntary Force name resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals resignations Dismissals

Greater 159 6 36 4 136 8 99 5 Manchester Hampshire 49 1 13 0 46 5 32 0 Hertfordshire 63 2 13 0 50 4 26 1 Humberside 34 2 11 1 40 2 22 1 Kent 49 1 15 0 57 4 42 2 Lancashire 32 6 19 1 34 8 71 3 Leicestershire 27 2 19 1 53 7 31 1 Lincolnshire 16 3 12 0 16 0 16 0 London, City of 1117116261 Merseyside 61 1 24 2 41 13 50 2 Metropolitan 531 31 309 15 360 23 655 30 Police Norfolk 24 1 11 1 16 1 18 2 Northamptonshire 19 3 11 0 25 2 21 2 Northumbria 48 8 19 4 46 9 43 3 NorthYorkshire32011131250 Nottinghamshire 28 2 10 2 23 2 27 2 South Yorkshire 38 0 12 0 40 0 15 2 Staffordshire 22 6 11 2 24 8 24 1 Suffolk12280232132 Surrey4610430475234 Sussex 76 5 38 2 76 1 50 3 Thames Valley 86 5 23 2 78 4 71 0 Warwickshire 18070201120 West Mercia 38 1 21 0 32 0 39 0 West Midlands 105 26 45 1 91 16 93 4 West Yorkshire 65 3 51 1 84 8 110 7 Wiltshire 16180280133 Dyfed-Powys8040123110 Gwent 16 1 16 1 24 6 14 3 North Wales 22 1 10 1 16 0 10 0 South Wales 39 1 18 1 80 2 36 1 Total 2,150 161 1,007 48 2,020 170 1,962 104

Full-time equivalent 2008-09 Police Officer PCSO Force name Voluntary resignations Dismissals Voluntary resignations Dismissals

Avon and Somerset 28 3 32 0 Bedfordshire 25 3 21 0 Cambridgeshire 25 0 35 1 Cheshire 17 2 31 1 Cleveland 19 3 7 0 Cumbria 21 1 30 0 Derbyshire 34 4 18 2 Devon and Cornwall 37 2 28 6 Dorset 14 2 16 2 Durham 16 2 37 5 Essex 53 4 36 0 Gloucestershire 12 1 18 0 Greater Manchester 97 7 99 3 Hampshire 45 4 63 1 Hertfordshire 34 5 30 0 Humberside 36 2 24 0 Kent 57 2 75 4 Lancashire 24 6 86 3 Leicestershire 35 2 36 3 Lincolnshire 15 0 28 2 London, City of 5 0 20 0 Merseyside 47 10 93 0 881W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 882W

Full-time equivalent 2008-09 Police Officer PCSO Force name Voluntary resignations Dismissals Voluntary resignations Dismissals

Metropolitan Police 383 19 512 38 Norfolk 31 5 74 1 Northamptonshire 19 4 22 0 Northumbria 48 4 58 1 North Yorkshire 28 2 11 1 Nottinghamshire 25 1 62 1 South Yorkshire 30 1 30 0 Staffordshire 22 1 36 0 Suffolk 32 2 13 0 Surrey 52 4 42 2 Sussex 60 2 58 2 Thames Valley 51 8 96 1 Warwickshire 9 1 18 0 West Mercia 28 1 39 0 West Midlands 109 8 106 1 West Yorkshire 73 6 55 4 Wiltshire 29 0 23 0 Dyfed-Powys 9 3 5 0 Gwent 22 2 20 0 North Wales 14 0 44 1 South Wales 88 2 27 0 Total 1,854 141 2,212 86 n/a = Data not available. 1 Full-Time Equivalent figures that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. Because of rounding, there may be an apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of the constituent items. Data have not previously been previously published in this format therefore totals may not match totals found in the published data. 2 Financial year runs 1 April to 31 March inclusive. Comparable data are not available prior to 2002-03. 3 Excludes quarters 1, 2 and 3, as data are not available.

Radicalism Investigatory Powers Act 2000; and how many of those convicted received the maximum sentence. [296657]

Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. the Home Department what policy his Department has adopted to prevent (a) violent extremism, (b) The encryption provisions of the 2000 Regulations of extremism claimed to be perpetrated in the name of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) came into force on 1 Islam, (c) extremism perpetrated in the name of October 2007. Up to the end of 2007 (latest available) neo-nazi and fascist causes and (d) extremism claimed there have been no persons reported to the Ministry of by others; and if he will make a statement. [293391] Justice as being cautioned, prosecuted or convicted under section 53 of the Act in England and Wales. Some information is available in the Chief Surveillance Mr. Hanson [holding answer 15 October 2009]: The Commissioner’s report for 2008-09 which shows there Government, the police and other agencies assess the were two s53 convictions for failing to disclose the key threat from various forms of extremism on a regular to protected information. basis. Government take all threats to the security of our communities very seriously and are undertaking a wide The Government are satisfied that offences set in variety of programmes to address and reduce the threat. RIPA are appropriate and that the legislation is being used effectively. Local threat assessments are not published publicly but are produced so that local partners including local authorities and police forces are able to make decisions Sexual Offences: Police Cautions and allocate resources according to local situations. The Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre (JTAC) assess James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for the threat to the UK from international terrorism and the Home Department how many people have received (a) (b) that is currently assessed to be at substantial, meaning cautions for offences under section 1 and 5of that the threat of a terrorist attack remains a strong the Sexual Offences Act 2003 in each police force area possibility and may occur without warning. in each of the last five years. [296656] Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 Information showing the number of offenders cautioned for offences under section 1 and 5 of the 2003 Sexual James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Offences Act in England and Wales, broken down by the Home Department how many people have been (a) Police Force Area, from 1 May 2004 (the date the 2003 cautioned, (b) prosecuted and (c) convicted of Sexual offences Act came into force) to 2007 (latest offences under section 53 of the Regulation of available) can be viewed in the following table. 883W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 884W

Data for 2008 are planned for publication at the end Number of offenders cautioned1 for offences under Sections 1 and 5 of the 2003 Sexual Offences Act, England and Wales, broken down by force2, 20043 to of January 2010. 20074,5 Number of offenders cautioned1 for offences under Sections 1 and 5 of the 2003 Force 20043 2005 2006 2007 Sexual Offences Act, England and Wales, broken down by force2, 20043 to 20074,5 England and 11 16 14 25 Force 20043 2005 2006 2007 Wales 1 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force Section 1 nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been included in the Cambridgeshire 2———totals. 2 A force not listed in the table means nil data. Cleveland — — — 1 3 The Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force on 1 May 2004—data in the Essex3———table start from that date. 4 Greater 1———The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the Manchester principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time the principal offence is Hampshire —113the more serious offence. 5 Hertfordshire — — 1 — Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Humberside — — 1 — from large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a Lancashire 1———consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Lincolnshire 1 1 — — Source: Metropolitan 4— 1—Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform Police Vetting Norfolk1——— Northamptonshire — 1 — — Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for the Northumbria — — — 1 Home Department how long on average it took to Nottinghamshire 2 — 1 2 complete a Criminal Records Bureau check undertaken South 1— 1—(a) by Lancashire constabulary and (b) nationwide in Yorkshire the latest period for which figures are available. Staffordshire — — 1 1 [296371] Suffolk 2 1 — — Meg Hillier: Data concerning the average time taken Surrey 2 1 — — by the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) to complete a Sussex — — 2 — Disclosure by police force area and the average length Warwickshire — — — 1 of time for the completion of CRB clearance once West Mercia — — 1 — police have been asked to provide this information are West Yorkshire — 1 — — not collated by the Bureau. England and 20 6 10 9 The CRB operates to a set of published service Wales standards (PSS) which include to issue 95 per cent. of Standard Disclosures within 10 days and 90 per cent. of Section 5 Enhanced Disclosures within 28 days. Average figures do not give an accurate indication of performance, Bedfordshire — — 1 — since any forces’ performance can be affected by a Cambridgeshire — — — 3 number of factors; the volume of cases sent to a force to Cleveland — — 1 — process in any given month, the number of staff available Gloucestershire — 3 1 — to process the checks and the IT resources on hand to Greater 2 1——forces. With these variables, performance can fluctuate Manchester within individual forces from one month to the next. Hampshire — — 1 — Hertfordshire — — 2 — Humberside — 1 1 — CABINET OFFICE Kent — — — 4 Census: Sanctions Lincolnshire 2 2 — 2 Merseyside — — — 1 James Duddridge: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what procedure governs the imposition Metropolitan 24—1 Police of sanctions on respondents who fill in their census Northumbria — — — 1 return incorrectly. [297472] Nottinghamshire — — 3 2 Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls South ——15within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Yorkshire I have asked the Authority to reply. Staffordshire — — — 2 Letter from Jil Matheson, dated November 2009: Suffolk—1—1As National Statistician I have been asked to reply to your Surrey3———recent question asking what procedure governs the imposition of Thames Valley 1———sanctions on respondents who fill in their census return incorrectly. Warwickshire — — 1 2 (297472) During the 2011 Census blank or incomplete responses will be West Midlands 1 4 — 1 identified during the data capture operation and residents will be Dyfed-Powys — — 1 — contacted by census staff while the field operation is still ongoing Gwent — — 1 — to obtain the required information. 885W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 886W

In a case where a questionnaire is returned, but has been Tessa Jowell: Guidance to Departments on the recording incorrectly completed there are a number of possible outcomes. of hospitality is set out in the Government’s response to Where responses are missing in an otherwise completed return, or the Public Administration Select Committee’s Report where there are incorrect answers that are inconsistent with other “Lobbying: Access and Influence in Whitehall” which responses, then edit and imputation processes will be applied at the data processing stage and generally residents will not be can be accessed at: recontacted http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/ If a questionnaire has inappropriate comments or obscene cmselect/cmpubadm/1045/1045.pdf remarks written in place of answers or has been left intentionally blank, it would be treated under a non-compliance procedure. Jobseeker’s Allowance Under this procedure census staff revisit addresses and, where appropriate, offer help with completing the form so that a return Richard Younger-Ross: To ask the Minister for the can be made as prescribed in the Census (England and Wales) Cabinet Office how many under 25 year olds in Order 2009, the Draft of which was laid before parliament on Teignbridge constituency claimed jobseeker’s Wednesday 21 October 2009. allowance in (a) 1997, (b) 2007, (c) 2008 and (d) The penalty for failure to make a census return is specified in 2009. [297658] Section 8 (1) of the Census Act 1920 which prescribes a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale. The standard scale is that set out in the Criminal Justice Act and the maximum fine is Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls currently £1,000. Prosecutions for refusing to complete a census within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. return are conducted in a Magistrates Court and the award of I have asked the authority to reply. costs against the defendant is at the discretion of the Magistrate. Letter from Jil Matheson, dated November 2009: The Office for National Statistics would prosecute only those who persistently refuse to make a return, and not in cases where As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your genuine mistakes have been made, or where people are incapable Parliamentary Question asking how many under 25 year olds in of completing a return for whatever reason. Teignbridge constituency claimed jobseeker’s allowance in 1997, 2007, 2008 and 2009. (297658) Census: Postal Services. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles the number of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) from the Jobcentre James Duddridge: To ask the Minister for the Plus administrative system. Table 1 shows the number of persons Cabinet Office what contingency plans there are to under 25 years old, resident in the Teignbridge constituency, who were claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance in September 2009, the ensure delivery of census forms in the event of latest period available, and the same month in 2008 ,2007 and disruption of postal services. [297473] 1997. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls National and local area estimates for many labour market within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant count are available on the NOMIS website at: http:// I have asked the Authority to reply. www.nomisweb.co.uk. Letter from Jil Matheson, dated November 2009: As National Statistician I have been asked to reply to your Manpower: Cabinet Office recent question asking what contingency plans there are to ensure delivery of census forms in the event of disruption of postal Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office services. (297473) pursuant to the answer of 7 May 2009, Official Report, The Office for National Statistics has contracted the delivery column 427W, on departmental manpower, whether and post back of census questionnaires to Royal Mail. This the Central Office of Information’s post of Head of requires Royal Mail to develop contingency plans to cope with potential disruption to postal services during the 2011 Census. Public Engagement is a new post; whether the post is These plans are part of ONS’s contractual arrangements with part of the Government Communications Network; Royal Mail and are confidential. and what the (a) job specification and (b) salary range There has been the opportunity to test the Royal Mail contingency associated with the post is. [290124] plans during the census rehearsal which is currently taking place in areas of Lancaster, Newham and Isle of Anglesey. Our experience Tessa Jowell: I have asked the Chief Executive of the to date has shown no impact from the recent industrial action on Central Office of Information to reply to the hon. the delivery of questionnaires: there have been some minor delays Member. in the return of completed questionnaires though Royal Mail has assuranced us that there is no current back log. Letter from Mark Lund, dated October 2009: ONS will work with Royal Mail to develop further contingency As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information plans for 2011, building on experience during the rehearsal. (COI), I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question (290124). Government Departments: Official Hospitality (a) This is a new post. (b) The post does form part of the Government Communications David Taylor: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Network. Office if she will amend the list of hospitality received (c) The job specification and salary range are contained in the by board members of Government departments from attached document. 1 January to 31 December 2007 to include hospitality A copy of the Job Specification was posted on our website as provided by the Chairman of the Audit Commission to part of the recruitment process, and has now been placed in the the (a) Director General of the Department for Libraries of the House. Communities and Local Government on 18 August 2007, (b) Director General of the Financial and Public Relations Commercial Group at the Home Department on 11 May 2007 and (c) Permanent Secretary to the Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for the Department Communities and Local Government on 8 Cabinet Office which public relations companies were October 2007. [297137] awarded the contracts arising from the Central Office 887W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 888W of Information Framework Agreement with contract ending 31 March 2010 to support the implementation reference 2007/S 156-194886; and what the total value of a low carbon growth and rainforest protection strategy was of the Framework Agreement. [294963] in Guyana. In 2008-09, we provided £313,000 towards the development of the prospectus and implementation Tessa Jowell: I have asked the chief executive of the plan for this strategy. The strategy aims to protect Central Office of Information to reply to the hon. Guyana’s 15 million hectares of rainforest. No funds Member. were provided to Guyana for rainforest protection in Letter from Mark Lund, dated October 2009: either of the two previous years. No agreements have yet been reached on funding for rainforest protection in As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information (COI), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question the next five years. [294963] asking which public relations companies were awarded Guyana is also a participant in the World Bank’s contracts arising from the COI Framework Agreement with the Forest Carbon Partnership Fund (to which the UK has contract reference 2007/S 156-194886; and what the total value of contributed £15 million) and recently submitted its the Framework Agreement. Reduced Emissions from Deforestation and Degradation The Framework Agreement relates to the Marketing Aimed at Readiness Plan. DFID officials regularly discuss forest Culturally Diverse Audiences Framework which commenced in protection with their Guyanese counterparts. 2007. The estimated value of the Framework is between £7 million Sri Lanka: International Assistance and £12 million, however the total value of the framework will not be known until its expiry in 2012. Mr. Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for The following agencies have subsequently been awarded contracts International Development what recent discussions he from it; has had with the Secretary of State for Foreign and Mediareach Commonwealth Affairs on the role of the International Media Moguls Organisation for Migration in the distribution of Livity humanitarian aid in Sri Lanka. [297464] Linstock Communications Mr. Michael Foster: The Secretary of State for Foreign Here & Now and Commonwealth Affairs is kept regularly informed of the Department for International Development’s Renewables Advisory Board (DFID) funding allocations and the work of the International Organisation for Migration (IOM) in Sri Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Lanka. pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Bath of 26 March 2009, Official Report, column 710W, on the Renewables Advisory Board, what the (a) title and (b) subject matter is of each public information film by the LEADER OF THE HOUSE Central Office of Information since 2005; and which Will Write production company produced each such film. [290131] Mr. Oaten: To ask the Leader of the House with Tessa Jowell: I have asked the Chief Executive of the reference to the written ministerial statement of 21 July Central Office of Information to reply to the hon. 2004, Official Report, column 35WS, on I Will Write Member. replies, whether the arrangements for publication in Letter from Mark Lund, dated October 2009: Hansard of I Will Write letters remain in force; and As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information whether they apply to letters written by chief executives (COI), I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary of Government agencies and non-departmental public Question on Public Information Films (290131). bodies providing information in response to A list of all public Information films, together with subject parliamentary questions. [297667] matter and Production Company since 2005 has been placed in the Library. Barbara Keeley: On those occasions where an “I will write” answer is necessary, a copy of the subsequent substantive response will be sent to Hansard,tobe printed with the written answers in the next edition. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT The guidance on letters written by chief executives of Guyana: Rain Forests Government agencies and non-departmental public bodies, in response to parliamentary questions, is outlined in the recently published ’Guide to Parliamentary Work:’ Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for ’Letters written by chief executives of Government agencies International Development what funding his and non-departmental public bodies, in response to parliamentary Department has provided to Guyana for rainforest questions, should be sent to the Official Report for printing, preservation in each of the last three years; what unless it contains personal or confidential information. If the estimate he has made of the acreage of rainforest letter is longer than the Official Report would normally publish protected as a result of such funding; and what notification will be printed that the response is available in the agreements he has reached with the government of Library of the House.’ Guyana on such funding in the next five years. [297640] The hon. Member can view the full ’Guide to Parliamentary Work’ through the Cabinet Office website Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International at: Development (DFID) has committed to spend http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/parliamentary-clerk- approximately £130,000 in the current financial year guide.aspx 889W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 890W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Mr. Kidney: Fuel poverty is measured at household level rather than at individual level. Biofuels The Department’s latest estimates for fuel poverty Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy are for 2007, available online at: and Climate Change how many biomass plants there http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/ fuelpov_stats/fuelpov_stats.aspx are in the UK. [296355] The following table provides the number of households Joan Ruddock: Records of biomass power plants in fuel poverty for each English region: accredited under the Renewables Obligation are kept by Number of house holds in fuel poverty Ofgem on their searchable Renewables and CHP Register Thousand at: Government https://www.renewablesandchp.ofgem.gov.uk/Public/ Office ReportManager.aspx?ReportVisibility=1&ReportCategory=0 Region 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

The total number of power plants in all biomass categories North East 95 103 126 179 206 recorded as of 30 October 2009 is 623, of which 400 East 112 101 145 236 272 record their biomass feedstock as landfill gas. The remaining Midlands 223 include anaerobic digestion, energy from waste, East of 115 141 155 224 253 sewage gas, co-firing and CHP as well as plant using England virgin biomass. Records are not kept centrally of the London 108 119 120 254 309 number of biomass heat only plants. However, with the North West 178 190 268 415 472 planned introduction of the RHI in 2011, such information South East 149 133 169 291 333 may become available, as part of the administration of South West 139 134 181 256 259 the scheme. West 146 153 197 304 383 Midlands Biofuels: Treaties Yorkshire 180 163 169 273 333 and The Humber Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 1,222 1,236 1,529 2,432 2,819 Energy and Climate Change what biofuel partnership agreements there are between the Government and the Natural Gas: Storage Government of (a) Brazil, (b) Mozambique and (c) South Africa; how much funding the Government have committed under each such agreement; what Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment he has made of the likely benefits to the Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of UK of such agreements; and if he will make a 12 October 2009, Official Report, column 483W, on natural gas: storage, what the minimum amount of gas statement. [297665] in storage over the winter is required under the safety Mr. Kidney: The Brazil-UK-Southern Africa Biofuels monitor system. [294494] Taskforce is a partnership agreed between the Governments of Brazil and the UK and the Southern African Mr. Kidney [holding answer 20 October 2009]: In the Development Community. The aim of the partnership Winter Outlook Report 2009-10 National Grid’s is to support sustainable biofuel production in Southern preliminary assessment of storage requirements for Safety Africa and the taskforce is part of the UK’s agenda for Monitors this winter is 100 million cubic metres (mcm) promoting low carbon growth internationally. To date, of storage space and 60 mcm/d of storage deliverability. the UK Government have committed approximately National Grid may revise this assessment during the £10,000 to pay for scoping work. course of the winter if appropriate. Fossil Fuel Levy: Scotland Nuclear Weapons

Mr. Ingram: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change what the balance of the Scottish Energy and Climate Change when he expects to receive Fossil Fuel Levy account was at 1 October 2009; and the annual report from the Director of the Office for what representations he has received from the Scottish Civil Nuclear Security; and what consideration was Executive on the drawdown and utilisation of the fund given to publishing the report in August 2009. [295781] for the promotion of energy use from renewable resources. [295332] Mr. Kidney: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has received a copy of the report. Mr. Kidney [holding answer 26 October 2009]: The Scottish Executive have made representations to DECC The report was published and deposited in Parliament regarding the Scottish Fossil Fuel Levy account. The on 8 October. There is not a set timetable for publication balance of the account was £170 million on 1 October. and the report was published as soon as was practical. Fuel Poverty Planning Act 2008

Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Lait: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Energy and Climate Change how many (a) people and and Climate Change which draft national policy (b) households were in fuel poverty in each region in statements under the Planning Act 2008 for which his each of the last five years; and if he will make a Department is responsible he expects to publish before statement. [297593] March 2010. [296504] 891W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 892W

Mr. Kidney [holding answer 2 November 2009]: The Percentage per total households Department intends to publish a suite of six energy Benefit type assisted national policy statements for consultation during autumn 2009. Disabled persons tax credit 0.01 This will include an overarching national policy statement Housing benefit 1.19 Income based employment and 0.05 for energy and five technology-specific national policy support allowance statements on: fossil fuel electricity generation; renewable Income based job seekers allowance 0.85 energy generation; gas supply infrastructure and gas Income support 5.95 and oil pipelines; electricity networks and nuclear power Industrial injuries disablement 0.09 generation. benefit Lone parent family 0.39 Radioactive Waste: Waste Disposal Maternity certificate (Mat B1) 0.09 Mobility supplement 0.23 Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Pension credit 24.08 Energy and Climate Change which companies based in State pension as main source of 0.02 (a) France, (b) Sweden, (c) the United States and (d) income the UK have made applications under the Radioactive War disablement pension 0.18 Substances Act 1993 for authorisation to dispose of Working families tax credit 0.08 low level nuclear waste in the UK; on what date each Working tax credit 2.28 application was made; and what the status of each such Note: application is. [295664] Dates: June 2005 to 31 August 2009 Some households will be in receipt of more than one Mr. Kidney: Applications made under the Radioactive benefit, such households have been counted against Substances Act 1993 for authorisation to dispose of low each individual benefit. level nuclear waste in the UK are listed in the following table by company and site. This list represents the most recent applications by these companies. TREASURY

Application date Company and premises Status EU Budget

November 2003 British Energy, Torness Power Station, (Now 1— British Energy Generation Ltd, part of EDF 7. Mr. Clappison: To ask the Chancellor of the Energy) Exchequer what he expects the net UK contribution to November 2003 British Energy, Hunterston B Power Station, 1— the EU budget to be in (a) 2009 and (b) 2013. (Now British Energy Generation Ltd, part of [297054] EDF Energy) October 2006 Babcock Engineering Services, Rosyth 1— Ian Pearson: The Government’s latest forecast of UK Dockyard net contributions to the European Community budget November 2007 Magnox North Ltd, Chapelcross Works 2— and June 2009 for 2009-10 is £4.1 billion, which is 0.6 per cent. of total April 2008 Dounreay Site Restoration Limited, Dounreay 2— managed expenditure. In line with all other public May 2009 Waste Recycling Ltd, Lillyhall Landfill Site 2— expenditure estimates, the Treasury does not currently Cumbria publish forecasts beyond 2010-11. July 2009 Auguean South Ltd, East Northants Resource 2— Management facility, Kings Cliffe, Unemployment Northamptonshire 1 Determined and granted. 18. Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the 2 Being determined. Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the Warm Front Scheme effect on the economy of the level of unemployment. [297067] Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what proportion of those who Mr. Byrne: In this current downturn unemployment have qualified for support under the Warm Front remains below levels at a similar stage compared to the scheme are in receipt of each type of non-taxable social early 1990s. Our substantial investment in getting people security benefit. [297086] back to work is helping ensure 3 million people have left the claimant count since the end of 2008. Mr. Kidney [holding answer 2 November 2009]: The Capital Projects following table details the proportion of households assisted by the Warm Front scheme who are in receipt 20. Mr. Betts: To ask the Chancellor of the of each type of qualifying benefit (all qualifying benefits Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the are non-taxable). effect on the economy of bringing forward expenditure on capital projects. [297069] Percentage per total households Benefit type assisted Mr. Byrne: The Chancellor forecast in this year’s Attendance allowance 11.62 Budget that the country will return to growth at the Child benefit 2.24 turn of the year as a result of measures taken by this Child tax credit 20.26 Government including the fiscal stimulus package. These Constant attendance allowance 0.09 additional investments are already supporting a number Council tax benefit 10.08 of industries and employing people across the country. Disability living allowance 27.79 An update on the economic position will be given in the Disability premium 1.87 pre-Budget report. 893W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 894W

Small Businesses vast majority of whom are small and medium sized, that employ an estimated 600,000 people. Just over 21. Charlotte Atkins: To ask the Chancellor of the 90 per cent. by value of the payments due under time to Exchequer what recent fiscal measures his Department pay arrangements are being paid on time. has taken to support small businesses during the While we have made no formal assessment of the recession. [297070] effect on small businesses, businesses tell us that they have found the service very helpful by giving them the Ian Pearson: Support for small businesses has included breathing space they need and by helping them pay extending loss relief, deferring the increase in corporation their tax bills in a managed and structured way with the tax for small companies and helping businesses spread full help and support of HMRC. tax payments through the Business Payment Support Service. This service has now made over 220,000 agreements Child Tax Credit: Expenditure with business, worth almost £4 billion of tax. In addition, the Enterprise Finance Guarantee, by Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Chancellor of the 28 October, had offered over 6,100 businesses loans Exchequer what estimate he has made of the cost to totalling approximately £620 million. public funds of (a) child tax credit and (b) child benefit for families with children aged 16 to 19 years in National Debt full-time education and training in 2008-09; what proportion of this expenditure were paid to families 22. Ms Rosie Winterton: To ask the Chancellor of the with gross incomes of over (i) £25,000, (ii) £40,000, (iii) Exchequer what the UK’s national debt is. [297071] £60,000 and (iv) £100,000 per year; and if he will make a statement. [297032] Ian Pearson: Public sector net debt at the end of the 2008-09 financial year stood at 43.2 per cent. of GDP, Mr. Timms: No such estimates have been made. excluding financial sector interventions. Climate Change Levy Equitable Life Dr. Whitehead: To ask the Chancellor of the 23. Sandra Gidley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what exemptions there are to the Exchequer what timetable has been set for the payment application of the climate change levy in respect of the of compensation to Equitable Life policyholders; and burning of recovered fuel oil in industrial if he will make a statement. [297072] manufacturing processes. [297558]

Mr. Byrne: As I announced in the House on 21 October Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Recovered fuel oil is a hydrocarbon 2009, the Government have asked Sir John Chadwick to oil within the meaning of the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties submit his final report by spring 2010. We will consider Act 1979 and as such is outside the scope of the climate his advice as quickly as possible and announce a payment change levy. Therefore, the burning of recovered fuel oil scheme that is practical to deliver and fair to both in any process, not just industrial manufacturing, will policyholders and taxpayers. not be subject to the climate change levy. Child Care Vouchers Coinage: Counterfeit Manufacturing Mr. Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many companies were participating in the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the childcare voucher scheme at the latest date for which Exchequer what steps he is taking to reduce the number figures are available. [296891] of counterfeit coins in circulation. [297177]

Mr. Timms: The most recent published research, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Royal Mint is working commissioned by HM Revenue and Customs in 2006, with banks, the Post Office, cash handling and sorting by the National Centre for Social Research estimated businesses, the police and the vending industry to remove that there were 9,600 organisations providing child care counterfeit £1 coins from circulation before they reach vouchers in late 2005. The report is available at the pockets of members of the public. Coin handling http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/research-report23.htm. businesses, such as banks and the Post Office, handle over three billion £1 coins every year. They use high-speed, Business Payment Support Service automated systems to process customer deposits and prepare coin for reissue. These automated systems are capable of detecting and withdrawing a significant number Mr. Touhig: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of counterfeit coins. All counterfeit coins detected from what assessment he has made of the effect on small coin processing are sent to the Royal Mint for disposal. businesses of the operation of the business payment support service. [297068] The Royal Mint holds awareness seminars to educate the public and the coin handling industry on how to Mr. Timms: Since its introduction on 24 November identify counterfeits, and has issued educational leaflets 2008 the Business Payment Support Service has agreed and posters. over 220,300 time to pay arrangements with businesses The Royal Mint is also working with other validator to spread tax payments of about £3.9 billion. This has and coin sorting manufactures to help improve the helped to support more than 150,000 businesses, the counterfeit detection rate. 895W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 896W

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the The forecast revenue for 2009-10 from alcohol duty is Exchequer what recent estimate he has made of the published in table C.6 of the 2009 Financial Statement number of counterfeit (a) £1 and (b) £2 coins in and Budget Report. This can be found at: circulation. [297178] http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ bud09_completereport_2520.pdf Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The most recent survey conducted HM Revenue and Customs do not publish part-year by the Royal Mint found that its sample contained a breakdowns of this forecast. £1 coin counterfeit rate of 2.52 per cent. or approximately £37 million. Paul Rowen: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Royal Mint does not currently undertake regular what recent discussions officials of his Department surveys for other denominations. It is widely believed have had with representatives of the public house (by the Royal Mint, the Serious Organised Crime Agency industry on alcohol duty; and if he will make a and industry partners) that there is not a significant statement. [297477] counterfeit issue with any other denominations. Some £2 counterfeit coins have been returned to the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury officials receive Mint but the quantities are minimal and they are of a representations from a wide range of organisations and poor quality. individuals in the public and private sectors as part of the process of policy development and delivery. As was Departmental Non-domestic Rates the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer representations. what the rateable value of HM Treasury building was (a) in 2009-10, based on the 2005 Rating List and (b) Housing: Sales on the draft 2010 rating List. [296991]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The rateable values of the Treasury Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Building are: with reference to the answer to Lord Oakeshott of Official Report, 2005 Rating List: £7,300,000; Seagrove Bay of 13 October 2009, House of Lords, column 24WA, on stamp duty, what Draft 2010 Rating List £12,870,000. estimate has been made of the (a) number of house Economic Growth transactions and (b) average level of house prices for (i) first-time buyers and (ii) all buyers in each year from 2010-11 to 2013-14. [296996] Mr. David Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his most recent assessment is of the level of growth in the UK economy compared with Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government do not publish those of other OECD economies; and if he will make a a forecast of property transactions or a forecast of the statement. [297059] average level of house-prices. For the purposes of the public finance projections the Mr. Byrne: All member economies of the OECD Treasury uses an assumption for the level of the house have been affected by the global recession. The OECD’s prices in each year of the forecast horizon. This assumption Interim Assessment in September noted that there are is based on an average of independent external forecasts signs of confidence returning across the world economy and audited by the National Audit Office. Details of the and to financial markets. However, complacency remains assumed level of house prices can be found in paragraphs our biggest risk and the G20 Finance Ministers have B.76 and B.77 of the Budget Report (HC 407). agreed to continue delivering the necessary support measures until recovery is secured. The Chancellor will National Insurance Fund publish his latest assessment of conditions in the UK and world economies in the Pre-Budget Report later this autumn. Mr. Dodds: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much the National Insurance Fund had (a) Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks received and (b) paid out on the most recent date for which figures are available. [297410] Paul Rowen: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how much alcohol duty has been collected since the Mr. Timms: Receipts into and payments out of the increase in the level of duty implemented in April 2009; National Insurance Fund (NIF) are shown in the annual [297474] NIF accounts. The latest published accounts are for the (2) how much alcohol duty has been collected since year 2007-08, available at: the increase in the level of duty implemented in http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/ni-fund-ac-gb-0708.pdf December 2008; [297475] (3) how much is estimated to be collected in alcohol Presbyterian Mutual Society duty in the next 12 months. [297476] Lady Hermon: To ask the Chancellor of the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Total alcohol duty received by Exchequer for what reasons the Financial Services the Exchequer is published on a monthly basis in the Authority did not investigate the financial activities of National Statistics Beer and Cider bulletin available at: the Presbyterian Mutual Society prior to its entering https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bullbeer administration in November 2008. [295807] 897W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 898W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Presbyterian Mutual Society Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury’s formal consultation (PMS) was registered by the Department of Enterprise, on the taxation of gaming machines was launched on Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland under the 16 July 2009 and concluded on 23 October 2009. Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1969. As such, it In line with the Government’s code of practice on was exempt from regulation by the Financial Services consultation, the responses will be analysed carefully Authority (FSA) in respect of accepting deposits in the and, in due course, feedback will be provided to participants. form of withdrawable share capital up to the statutory maximum of £20,000. Therefore, the FSA did not have cause to investigate the financial activities of the PMS Taxation: Ministers of Religion prior to its entering administration in 2008. It has since been established that the PMS was conducting regulated Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer activities which required FSA authorisation, but that it with reference to HM Revenue and Customs tax did so without having sought and obtained the necessary manual advice EIM60007, ministers of religion: authorisation. exemption of income: overview; what Freedom of Information Act 2000 exemptions apply to the text that Public Expenditure has been withheld from publication. [296802] Andrew George: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Timms: The part of the guidance that has been Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the withheld is for use by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) accuracy of records of (a) tax take and (b) public staff that require advice on this matter and contains a expenditure held at (i) local authority and (ii) regional internal hyperlink that takes them to the person who level. [297269] can help. The withheld text states: Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury does not publish “If a claim to benefit from the special rules is pressed but you a breakdown of total taxes by region and local authority are doubtful whether the claimant can be regarded as a minister, and does not produce a breakdown of total public consult PAYE Technical.” spending by local authority. However, it publishes a The published guidance incorrectly states that this breakdown of total identifiable public spending by region has been withheld on freedom of information grounds, in Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses (PESA) at: rather than for internal use. HMRC will update this http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pesa09_chapter9.pdf guidance to correct this error and place the withheld The Treasury continuously looks to improve the quality guidance, minus the hyperlink, into the public domain. of this data and data improvements in recent years are described in each annual publication of Public Expenditure Valuation Office: Geographical Information Systems Statistical Analyses. Taxation: Aviation Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will commission a privacy impact Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of assessment in respect of the Valuation Office Agency’s the Exchequer what discussions he has had with Geographical Information System. [294517] Ministerial colleagues on the effect on the UK freight industry of changes in the taxation of aviation. Ian Pearson: The Information Commissioner’s Office [297058] (ICO) provides guidance on the use of PIAs. The ICO envisages PIAs only being used where a project is of Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Government consulted on a such a wide scope, or will use personal information of per plane tax in early 2008, and before taking the such a nature, that there would be genuine risks to the decision to reform APD, the Chancellor took privacy of the individual. PIAs will usually be recommended representations from a range of stakeholders, including where a change of the law would be required, new and other ministers, as per the usual process in tax development. intrusive technology is being used, or where private or sensitive information which was originally collected for Taxation: Gaming Machines a limited purpose is going to be re-used in a new and unexpected way. Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many requests for meetings on his I am advised that the Valuation Office Agency’s Department’s consultation on the taxation of gaming geographical information system project does not pose machines his Department has received in the last a risk to the privacy of an individual. 12 months; and how many such requests have resulted in a meeting with Ministers. [297571] Valuation Office: Training Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials meet with a wide range of organisations and individuals Robert Neill: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the public and private sectors as part of the usual pursuant to the Answer to the hon. Member for policy making process. As was the case with previous Meriden, of 21 May 2009, Official Report, column Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to 1514W, on Valuation Office: training, if he will place in provide details of all such discussions. the Library an electronic copy of the e-Learning Programmes in Module 5 on council tax. [296804] Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when his Department plans to publish its Ian Pearson: I refer the hon. Member to the answer response to its recent consultation on the taxation of given to the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) gaming machines. [297572] on 22 October 2009, Official Report, columns 1676-77W. 899W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 900W

JUSTICE Number of drivers convicted of driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs1 in the East of England, 2000-08, with a previous conviction2 for the same offence Number of Driving Under Influence drivers convicted of driving under Number of these Percentage of the influence of drivers with a drivers with a Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice alcohol/drugs previous previous how many drivers convicted of driving in each police (East of conviction for the conviction for the authority when under the influence of alcohol or drugs Force England) same offence same offence in the East of England in each year since 1999 had Essex 2,491 540 21.7 previous convictions for the same offence. [295947] Hertfordshire 1,677 337 20.1 Norfolk 1,095 213 19.5 Claire Ward: The figures requested are shown in the Suffolk 1,129 213 18.9 following table. Grand Total 8,326 1,685 20.2 These figures have been drawn from the police’s administrative IT system, the police national computer 2005 (PNC), which, as with any large scale recording system, Bedfordshire 958 231 24.1 is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Cambridgeshire 1,192 246 20.6 The figures are provisional and subject to change as Essex 2,356 560 23.8 more information is recorded by the police. Hertfordshire 1,717 387 22.5 Number of drivers convicted of driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs1 Norfolk 1,140 244 21.4 in the East of England, 2000-08, with a previous conviction2 for the same offence Suffolk 987 219 22.2 Number of Grand Total 8,350 1,887 22.6 drivers convicted of driving under Number of these Percentage of the influence of drivers with a drivers with a 2006 alcohol/drugs previous previous (East of conviction for the conviction for the Bedfordshire 1,037 241 23.2 Force England) same offence same offence Cambridgeshire 1,202 251 20.9 2000 Essex 2,557 580 22.7 Hertfordshire 1,810 432 23.9 Bedfordshire 601 101 16.8 Norfolk 1,226 268 21.9 Cambridgeshire 645 78 12.1 Suffolk 1,054 236 22.4 Essex 1,985 268 13.5 Grand Total 8,886 2,008 22.6 Hertfordshire 1,287 187 14.5 Norfolk 893 115 12.9 Suffolk 713 77 10.8 2007 Grand Total 6,124 826 13.5 Bedfordshire 999 268 26.8 Cambridgeshire 1,186 265 22.3 2001 Essex 2,472 572 23.1 Hertfordshire 1,862 421 22.6 Bedfordshire 725 132 18.2 Norfolk 1,222 299 24.5 Cambridgeshire 675 107 15.9 Suffolk 993 199 20.0 Essex 2,008 312 15.5 Grand Total 8,734 2,024 23.2 Hertfordshire 1,417 216 15.2 Norfolk 897 129 14.4 Suffolk 785 112 14.3 2008 Grand Total 6,507 1,008 15.5 Bedfordshire 877 233 26.6 Cambridgeshire 1,060 258 24.3 2002 Essex 2,380 582 24.5 Hertfordshire 1,662 408 24.5 Bedfordshire 769 165 21.5 Norfolk 1,057 257 24.3 Cambridgeshire 742 131 17.7 Suffolk 878 220 25.1 Essex 2,149 396 18.4 Grand Total 7,914 1,958 24.7 Hertfordshire 1,669 289 17.3 1 The data includes a range of offences under the Road Traffic Act. They can Norfolk 1,040 164 15.8 be found in sections 4(1), 5(1) (a), 7(6), 4(2), 5(1) (b), 6(4) and 7A as amended Suffolk 924 162 17.5 by the Police Reform Act 2002 and the Transport and Works Act 2002. 2 Grand Total 7,293 1,307 17.9 Previous convictions are taken whether committed in East of England of elsewhere in England and Wales.

2003 Ministerial Policy Advisers Bedfordshire 920 206 22.4 Cambridgeshire 833 176 21.1 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Essex 2,280 478 21.0 pursuant to the answer of 12 October 2009, Official Hertfordshire 1,655 327 19.8 Report, column 102W, on departmental ministerial Norfolk 1,081 212 19.6 policy advisers, whether his special advisers signed Suffolk 1,030 185 18.0 waivers under the European Working Time Directive. Grand Total 7,799 1,584 20.3 [296032]

2004 Mr. Straw: As I said in my previous answer to the Bedfordshire 938 191 20.4 hon. Gentleman, I am told that working for me is pure Cambridgeshire 996 191 19.2 pleasure and stress free. It is very generous of the hon. 901W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 902W

Gentleman to be so concerned for the welfare of my Prisoners Release: Terrorism special advisers but I can inform him that given how much they enjoy working for me, they have not felt the Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice need to sign waivers under the European Work Time (1) what measures are in place to ensure adequate Directive. supervision of offenders convicted under anti- Offenders: Radicalism terrorism legislation who have subsequently been released under supervision; [296509] Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (2) if he will use actuarial risk assessment methods to (1) what intervention strategies his Department has score the risk of reoffending of each person convicted developed to work with extremist offenders; [296507] under anti-terrorism legislation which has subsequently (2) what group work programmes his Department been released under supervision; [296510] has accredited for use with convicted of offences (3) what resources have been allocated to the related to terrorism (a) in prison and (b) on release in Probation Service to supervise persons convicted under the community. [296508] anti-terrorist legislation and subsequently released into the community under supervision; [296520] Mr. Straw: The National Offender Management Service is taking forward a wide-ranging programme of work (4) whether persons convicted under anti-terrorism to manage the risks of violent extremism and radicalisation legislation who are subsequently released into the among offenders. Part of this programme includes work community are allocated to tier 4 of his Department’s to research, develop and evaluate potential intervention Offender Management Model; and if he will make a approaches. statement. [296521] Given the comparatively low number of terrorist Mr. Straw: All terrorist offenders fall to be managed offenders and the different motivations and behaviours in the community under the Multi-Agency Public Protection they present in relation to their offending, it is difficult Arrangements (MAPPA). MAPPA are a statutory set to identify with statistical significance and reliability of arrangements, in which the police, prison and probation factors associated with terrorist offending or reoffending. services are required to assess and manage the risk Therefore prison and probation staff need to use all posed by offenders posing a high risk of harm. The available sources of evidence to assess the risk of serious MAPPA Guidance, issued by the Secretary of State for harm or reconviction which terrorist offenders pose, Justice pursuant to Section 325(8) of the Criminal and to identify appropriate intervention strategies. Justice Act 2003, now includes a chapter on the management For any intervention to be effective it will need to of terrorist offenders. Under that statutory guidance, target the reasons why people offend which are different chief officers of probation are required to ensure that for each individual. There are currently no group work cases involving terrorist offenders are allocated to an programmes specifically accredited for use with those experienced offender manager. convicted of offences related to terrorism. NOMS is working to understand the potential use of a wide range In addition, offenders released having served a sentence of intervention strategies which may help combat violent of 12 months or more will be subject to statutory extremist offending and address the criminogenic factors supervision on licence by the probation service, with six of the individual violent extremist offender. standard conditions. Additional licence conditions can be recommended by the offender manager to manage Offensive Weapons the risks posed by a particular case. Such additional licence conditions can include restrictions on internet Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice use and contact with named individuals. what plans his Department has to introduce Where appropriate, terrorist offenders will be supervised mandatory sentences for carrying a knife in a public on release in approved premises. Approved premises place. [297026] provide for enhanced level of supervision for high risk Mr. Straw: We have no plans to introduce mandatory of harm offenders on release from custody into the sentences for carrying a knife in a public place. Mandatory community. sentences are only considered in truly exceptional Probation staff are required to assess offenders’ risk circumstances. They can have serious drawbacks in of reoffending and risk of harm, including offenders some circumstances; because of their inflexibility they convicted of terrorist or terrorism-related offences, using cannot easily respond to the circumstances of each OASys (Offender Assessment System). One element of offence so they can lead to unjust outcomes. But we OASys is an actuarial risk of reoffending score. The have doubled the maximum sentence for possession of predictors of the likelihood of proven reoffending relate an offensive weapon in a public place from two to four to groups within the overall offender population. Given years, which allows the courts to impose higher penalties the comparatively low numbers of terrorist offenders, it in appropriate cases. We also welcomed last summer’s is difficult to identify with statistical significance and new sentencing guidelines that provide for a starting reliability factors associated with terrorist reoffending. point of three months custody for possession of a knife. Therefore, along with the OASys assessment, offender Since then, sentencing has become more severe for this managers need to use all available sources of evidence offence: more people are going to prison, and for longer. to assess the risk of serious harm or reconviction which We will shortly be making an announcement on the terrorist offenders pose. All high risk offenders are outcome of the review as to whether the starting point allocated to Tier 4 of the Offender Management model. for adults convicted of murder using a knife currently The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) 15 years under schedule 21 of Criminal Justice Act 2003 spends significant sums of money in delivering its should be raised. responsibilities of protecting the public and reducing 903W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 904W reoffending. In addition to the on-going costs involved All young adults in managing terrorist offenders on licence, NOMS is 2007 2008 taking forward a multi-disciplinary programme of work Without 610 520 funded by the Office of Security and Counter Terrorism accommodation (OSCT). This year OSCT has provided £5.5 million to Without employment 3,400 3,900 the programme and this includes money specifically to Total discharges 16,100 16,800 support probation areas. In addition, those cases assessed as presenting the highest levels of imminent risk of Numbers below 1,000 have been rounded to the harm, including those convicted of terrorism or terrorism nearest 10. Numbers over 1,000 have been rounded to related offences, can be registered as Critical Public the nearest 100. Protection Cases (CPPC). CPPC registration enables These figures have been drawn from administrative the responsible authority, normally the probation service, IT systems which, as with any large scale recording to apply for additional funding to strengthen local risk system, are subject to possible errors with data entry management plans. and processing. Prisoners Release: Young Offender Institutions Prisoners: Suicide

Mr. Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice (1) what percentage of young adults released how many people (1) on home detention curfew from young offender institutions went to (a) housing committed suicide between 1999 and 2009; [296767] provided by family members, (b) housing provided by local authorities, (c) housing provided by charities, (d) (2) released on an early release scheme committed an unknown address and (e) another destination in the suicide in (a) 2006, (b) 2007 and (c) 2008. [296768] latest period for which figures are available; [295912] Claire Ward: The home detention curfew, early removal (2) what proportion of young adults released from and end of custody licence schemes enable eligible young offender institutions were provided with prisoners to be released from prison earlier than the accommodation by his Department in the last five half-way point of their sentence. NOMS does not collect years for which figures are available; [295915] data centrally on the numbers of self-inflicted deaths of (3) how many young adults left (a) Reading Young such offenders after they have been released into the Offender Institution and (b) all young offender community. institutions without (i) employment or (ii) The National Offender Management Service has a accommodation in each of the last five years. [295916] broad, integrated and evidence-based prisoner suicide prevention and self-harm management strategy that Maria Eagle: Data on the provider of housing for seeks to reduce the distress of all those in prison and to offenders on discharge from prison is not recorded in ensure that released at-risk prisoners receive comparable the form specified in the questions. However data is support to that received in prison. As part of the held on the type of accommodation to which offenders pre-release care planning process, offender managers are discharged. must be informed of any risk of harm to self or others The following table shows the proportion of young and the management strategies which have been tried in adults discharged from prison establishments in 2007 the prison setting. Prisons have local protocols in place and 2008 by type of accommodation. Data for previous which seek to ensure that at-risk prisoners are linked years are not available. with community based organisations providing support after release. Percentage 2007 2008 Prisons: Greater Manchester

Permanent 83 84 independent housing Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Supported housing 2 2 Justice what estimate he has made of the level of Bail/Probation hostel 3 3 overcrowding in prisons serving the Greater Transient/short- 53Manchester area; and if he will make a statement. term accommodation [296436] No fixed abode 4 3 No information 3 4 Maria Eagle: For the financial year April to September 2009 the average rate of overcrowding for prisons serving The following tables show the numbers of young the Greater Manchester area were as follows: adults discharged without any accommodation or employment from (a) Reading YOI and (b) all prison Percentage establishments in 2007 and 2008. Data for previous years are not available. Buckley Hall 17.9 Forest Bank 58.2 Reading discharges Hindley 0 2007 2008 Manchester 53.4 Without Less than 10 Less than 10 accommodation It remains our priority to reduce overcrowding by Without employment 20 Less than 10 increasing capacity through building new prisons, expanding existing prisons and making more effective use of the Total discharges 330 300 estate. 905W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 906W

Reoffenders Maria Eagle: Secure training centres were established by the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, and the Youth Justice Board (YJB) was established by the Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Crime and Disorder Act 1998. (1) how many people on home detention curfew reoffended between 1999 and 2009; [296770] The Youth Justice Board for England and Wales Order 2000 (SI 1160) amended the function of the YJB (2) how many people released under an early release to include the authority to place young people into scheme reoffended in (a) 2006, (b) 2007 and (c) 2008. custody, including secure training centres, on behalf of [296771] the Secretary of State.

Maria Eagle: The Ministry of Justice records the Secure Accommodation: Young Offenders number of alleged offences while on early custody licence (ECL) and has recently released figures of offenders who reoffended while on home detention curfew (HDC). Mr. Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what secure accommodation provision is in Data on ECL releases, recalls and alleged reoffending place for juvenile offenders from (a) Reading, (b) is published every month on the following website: Berkshire and (c) the South East. [295939] http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ endofcustodylicence.htm Maria Eagle: There are no establishments in the During the period 29 June 2007 (the start of the under-18 secure estate in Reading or Berkshire. The scheme) to 30 September 2009 (the latest data available), Youth Justice Board commissions 941 beds in London 1,058 offenders have been notified to the National and the South East comprising: Offender Management Service (NOMS) as alleged to Cookham Wood Young Offenders Institution have committed a further offence while on the scheme. Table 1 gives the further breakdown by period. Downview Young Offenders Institution Feltham Young Offenders Institution Table 1: Number of offenders alleged to have committed a further offence while on ECL by period Huntercombe Young Offenders Institution 29 June to 1 January 1 January Oakhill Secure Training Centre 31 to 31 to 30 December December September Medway Secure Training Centre 2007 2008 2009 Swanwick Lodge Secure Children’s Home Total ECL releases 16,197 31,318 22,362 Offenders alleged to have 215 497 346 Theft: Sentencing committed the further offences while on ECL1 1 The number of offenders notified to NOMS as having allegedly reoffended Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for during their period on ECL. Justice what the (a) maximum and (b) minimum The latest figures on reoffending while on home sentence is for the offence of the theft of a purse. detention curfew were released by this Department in a [296662] written ministerial statement on 14 September 2009, Official Report, columns 142-44WS Table 2 gives the Mr. Straw: The maximum penalty for theft is seven number of offenders who have been convicted for an years’ imprisonment. There is no minimum penalty. offence while on HDC between 2003-04 and 2007-08. Table 2: Number of offenders who have been convicted for an offence while on Young Offenders: Education HDC, 2003-04 to 2007-08, England and Wales Offenders who reoffended Offenders on HDC while on HDC Mr. Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2003-04 20,802 1,244 Justice what educational assessments are carried out on 2004-05 18,587 839 each young offender entering each young offender 2005-06 15,443 688 institution, with particular reference to Reading Young 2006-07 12,626 484 Offender Institution. [295936] 2007-08 11,316 486 Maria Eagle: The Learning and Skills Council (LSC), Data prior to 2003-04 is not available. This statement who commissions learning delivered in pubic sector is available from the Library of the House. prisons in England, requires its providers to assess an individual’s basic skills level, particularly in numeracy, The Ministry of Justice will be consulting on the language and literacy, if assessment has not already publication of data in respect of offenders who reoffend taken place. The outcomes of the assessments are used while on licence in due course. to place offenders in appropriate learning. Reading prison and young offender institution undertakes Secure Accommodation: Young Offender Institutions this assessment as part of the induction programme for young offenders which also includes screening for dyslexia. In addition an individual diagnostic assessment is Dr. Vis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what undertaken by tutors for offenders joining classes to the statutory authority is for placing children in secure improve literacy and/or numeracy in order to determine training centres; and if he will make a statement. the individual’s current level so that learning can be [296968] further tailored to individual requirements. 907W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 908W

Young Offenders: Self-Harm independent investigation by the prisons probation ombudsman. Robust systems are in place for monitoring deaths and learning from them. Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many young offenders in custody (a) All prisoners identified as at risk of suicide or self-harm, committed suicide and (b) self-harmed in each of the including young offenders, are cared for using the last five years. [296444] assessment, care in custody and teamwork (ACCT) procedures. This is a prisoner-focussed care planning system for those at risk. Most self harm is not directly Maria Eagle: The National Offender Management life threatening, but nevertheless can be extremely distressing Service (NOMS) collects data on self-inflicted deaths for those who have to deal with it. There are no easy and self-harm for young offenders who are held in answers to managing self harming behaviour but we prison custody, and not for those held in secure training remain committed to finding ways to reduce it. centres (STCs) and secure children’s homes (SCHs). These establishments are the responsibility of the Youth Justice Board and local authorities respectively. Numbers HEALTH of prisoner suicides and incidents of self-harm are collated from the NOMS incident reporting system in Accident and Emergency Departments: Greater London prisons. Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Tables 1 and 2 give the numbers of self-inflicted Health (1) what assessment he has made of the deaths and self-harming individuals respectively involving additional specialties required to provide the range of young offenders in prison custody for the years 2004 to services to be offered at the proposed major trauma 2008. The term “YoungOffenders” covers young people centre of St Mary’s, Paddington; which of these aged 15 to 17 and young adults aged 18 to 21. specialties are available at the Royal Free Hospital; and Table 1: Recorded numbers of self-inflicted deaths of young offenders, 2004 to if he will make a statement; [296582] 2008 (2) what assessment he has made of likely changes to Age group 2004 2005 2006 2001 2008 the provision of accident and emergency services at (a) Young people 15 to 17 —2—1—Barnet Hospital, (b) the Royal Free Hospital and (c) years Northwick Park Hospital following the entry into Young adults 18 to 21 610265operation of the proposed new major trauma centres; years and if he will make a statement; [296584] Total 612275(3) what assessment he has made of the likely change NOMS’ definition of self-inflicted deaths is broader in the services to be provided at (a) the Royal Free than the legal definition of suicide and includes all Hospital and (b) Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals deaths where it appears that a prisoner has acted specifically following the entry into operation of the proposed to take their own life. This inclusive approach is used in hyperacute stroke units in London; and if he will make part because inquest verdicts are often not available for a statement. [296585] some years after a death (some 20 per cent. of these (4) what additional specialties are required to be deaths will not receive a suicide or open verdict at established at the sites of each of the proposed major inquest). Annual numbers may change slightly from trauma centres in London; by what date such time to time as inquest verdicts and other information specialties will have been provided at each proposed become available. site; and if he will make a statement; [296592] (5) what date he has set for implementation of the Table 2: Recorded numbers of young offenders who have self-harmed for 2004 to 2008 proposed (a) hyperacute stroke centres and (b) major Age group 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 trauma centres in London; and if he will make a statement; [296593] Young people 15 to 17 317 434 381 344 430 years (6) what progress has been made on the Young adults 18 to 21 970 1,053 1,124 1,140 1,194 implementation of the plan for (a) hyperacute stroke years units and (b) major trauma units; what steps the Note: London Ambulance Service has taken to amend its These are approximate numbers of individuals, based on incidents of self- provision of services in advance of the implementation harm where the prisoner number was recorded. Recorded self-harm is a high volume incident. The data are drawn from the prison administrative IT of such units; and if he will make a statement. [296594] systems. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large-scale Mr. Mike O’Brien: This is a matter for NHS London recording system. Nevertheless, the system provides a sensible indication of and I have passed the question to the chief executive the numbers of incidents and individuals who self-harm but the numbers should not be treated as absolute. with a request to write to the hon. Member. Every death in prison is a tragedy, and affects families, Accident and Emergency Departments: Waiting Lists staff and other prisoners deeply. Ministers, the Ministry Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of Justice and the National Offender Management Service what the average length of wait for treatment for a are committed to learning from each death and to patient arriving at the Norfolk and Norwich University reducing the number of such incidents. Good care and Trust Accident and Emergency facility was in (a) May, support from staff save many lives, but such instances (b) June, (c) July, (d) August, (e) September and (f) go largely unreported. Prisons successfully keep safe in October 2009. [296021] any given month approximately 1,500 prisoners assessed to be at particular risk of suicide or self harm. Deaths Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information on average waiting in prisons are among the most scrutinised of all incidents times in accident and emergency (A&E) facilities is not and each case is subject to a police investigation and collected centrally. Trusts submit information on time 909W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 910W spent from arrival to admission, transfer or discharge in Gillian Merron: The Government’s response to Lord hourly time bands. This information for Norfolk and Archer’s report was published on 20 May 2009. Norwich University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust Implementation to date of the Government’s response accident and emergency facilities is shown in the following to the report is as follows: table. This information is taken from the Quarterly Recommendation 1 (A committee to advise the Monitoring of Accident and Emergency dataset originally Government on the management of haemophilia)—the published on 14 August 2009 and revised 18 August first meeting with the Haemophilia Alliance will be held 2009. on 20 November 2009. Representatives from the Health Departments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, Department type Time bands (Hours) Total attendances and a member from the independent advisory committee Type 1 (Consultant-led 0-1 3,208 on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs (SaBTO) department) have been invited to attend. 1-2 6,671 Recommendations 2 and 3 (Haemophilia patients, 2-3 5,572 their partners, and all blood donors to receive any tests 3-4 5,385 recommended by the committee)—no specific Over 4 280 implementation date required as any new relevant tests will be considered by the Alliance or SaBTO as and when they arise. Type 3 (Minor injuries 0-1 2,284 unit) Recommendation 4 (Free prescriptions and free access 1-2 579 to other services “not freely available under the national 2-3 71 health service including...general practitioner visits, counselling, physiotherapy, home nursing and support 3-4 6 services” for those infected)—Professor Ian Gilmore’s Over 4 0 review of prescription charges in England for those with long term conditions, is due to report shortly. The Walk-in centre 0-1 7,037 Government will consider whether further action is 1-2 283 required in England to implement Lord Archer’s 2-3 6 recommendation following the Gilmore review. 3-4 3 Recommendation 5 (Secure future of Haemophilia Society by adequate funding)—the Government have Over 4 0 committed £100,000 per annum funding to the Haemophilia In the Norfolk and Norwich University Hospitals Society for the next five years. The Department has NHS Foundation Trust, during the first quarter of discussed this with the Haemophilia Society on a number 2009-10, there were a total of 31,385 attendances at of occasions and is currently awaiting a written proposal accident and emergency facilities, and 99.11 per cent. of from the Society to enable the funds to be released. those patients were admitted, transferred or discharged Recommendation 6 (Financial assistance should be less than four hours after arrival. increased and take the form of prescribed periodic payments)—funding to the Macfarlane and Eileen Trusts Aortic Aneurysm (for HIV) is being increased in line with the Government response. Some administrative and legal changes have Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for been needed to enable the trusts to make these new Health how many (a) hospitals and (b) general payments, but it is anticipated that beneficiaries should practices provide ultra sound screening for aortic receive their new payments in December 2009 with any aneurysms, with particular reference to screening for back-payments being made before the end of March men over 60 years old; and if he will make a statement. 2010. All payments will be back-dated to 20 May 2009 [297482] and payments will be made to the estates of any individual who has died since 20 May 2009. As indicated in the Ann Keen: Information about the number of hospitals Government response, the Skipton Fund (for hepatitis and general practices providing ultra sound screening C) will be reviewed in 2014. for aortic aneurysms is not held centrally. Recommendation 7 (Access to insurance by providing Since the ministerial announcement in January 2008 premiums or setting up separate scheme)—no of an Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm Screening Programme implementation date required as the Government’s position for men aged 65, six early implementation sites are now is as outlined in its response. offering screening to national standards. These are: West Sussex, Leicester, Gloucester, South Manchester, South Devon and Exeter, and South West London. Breast Cancer: Screening Full implementation of the screening programme across England is expected by the end of 2012-13. Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Blood: Contamination Health what progress the NHS is making on the provision of breast screening for women in Hendon Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health constituency; and if he will make a statement. [296588] by what date he plans to implement those recommendations in the Archer Report on Ann Keen: The information requested is not held contaminated blood and blood products which the centrally.It is for local national health service organisations Government has accepted. [297298] to plan, develop and improve services for local people. 911W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 912W

Nationally, breast screening is provided every three Dental Services years for all women in England aged 50 and over. Currently, women aged between 50 to 70 years are Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for invited routinely and women over the age of 70 can Health (1) whether the new draft dental access contract request free three-yearly screening. was discussed with (a) representative bodies and (b) In September 2007, the Department announced dental stakeholders before it was passed by his proposals to extend the age range of women eligible for Department to primary care trusts; [296457] routine breast screening to women between the ages of (2) what timetable his Department has set for 47 and 73 years by 2012. As a result, around 400,000 piloting the new draft dental access contract; and what more women will be screened each year. estimate he has made of the cost to his Department of “The Cancer Reform Strategy”, published in 2007 (a those pilots. [296460] copy of which has already been placed in the Library), is supporting the roll out of digital mammography for Ann Keen: The Department’s Dental Access Programme breast screening, an x-ray examination of the breasts, has been working with the national health service to which can show breast cancers at an early stage. For the increase patient access to NHS dentistry. As part of this roll out approximately £120 million has been allocated it has been developing a contract template, based on the to NHS trusts as part of the wider capital funding. existing personal dental services (PDS) regulations to They must ensure that all breast screening units have at help primary care trusts (PCTs) to tender for new dental least one full-field digital mammography set by 2010. services in their area. The template, which is designed to Cancer be adaptable to local needs, includes a number of optional schedules for PCTs to choose what is best for their local Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for circumstances. It is not a new contract: all of it is within Health what steps his Department is taking to increase the current PDS regulations. Its use is optional for awareness of (a) the symptoms of various forms of PCTs, many of whom are developing their own contracts, cancer and (b) the practice of regular self-examination using the existing flexibilities within the regulations. for such symptoms. [296493] The template, which is still being finalised, is intended to set out more clearly existing requirements, which Ann Keen: Through the National Awareness and might, at present, be in a number of documents, and to Early Diagnosis Initiative, we are raising awareness of focus more clearly on quality of dental services, as well the signs and symptoms of cancer among healthcare as volumes of activity. To ensure this is transparent and professionals and the general public, and encouraging helpful we have been discussing the template with a those people with symptoms that may be cancer to seek wide range of interested parties including PCTs, the advice as early as possible. This work includes developing British Dental Association (BDA), and dental services key messages on a number of cancers, carrying out a providers, as well as Professor Jimmy Steele and his baseline national cancer symptom awareness survey, Independent Review team. commissioning an audit of cancer diagnoses in primary A series of detailed meetings has taken place with the care, and providing funding for a number of cancer BDA—who have been engaged from the outset of the awareness campaigns. Dental Access Programme with presentations at the As part of the Initiative, almost £5 million has been national provider workshops and attendance at regional allocated to the national health service to support cancer strategic health authority/PCT workshops. networks and primary care trusts in implementing local Two national workshops for potential providers were services that will improve awareness of cancers and held, in Manchester and London on 27 and 28 April promote early diagnosis. 2009 respectively, to discuss the Department’s plans for We do not promote the practice of routine self- the development of the PDS Agreement and to take examination for cancer symptoms as people’s bodies, feedback from providers. The national workshops were particularly women’s, can feel different at different times. followed by more focused meetings with a broad range However, it is important that people are aware of their of providers to discuss developments on the contract. bodies and what is normal for them, and that they Over 40 meetings have so far taken place. report any changes as early and as soon as possible. We have collaborated with Cancer Research UK to produce Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for a breast awareness leaflet, Be Breast Aware, and a Health what guidance his Department has issued to testicular cancer leaflet, Detecting Testicular Cancer primary care trusts on the use of the new draft dental —Spot the symptoms early. access contract as a basis for contractual discussions Childbirth with prospective practitioners in (a) existing and (b) new practices. [296458] Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the rate of induced births was at each maternity Ann Keen: The contract template developed for the unit in the NHS in each of the last three years; and if Dental Access Programme is intended to be available to he will make a statement. [296611] primary care trusts (PCTs) to use for new procurements of new national health service dental services, if they Ann Keen: Information is not available in the format wish. Comprehensive guidance, including several user requested. Tables which show delivery episodes where guides (covering the contract provisions, insurance, pensions, there was an induced labour in national health service premises etc.), will be provided for commissioning PCTs hospitals, broken down by type of induced labour, when the template is finalised. In addition, a series of hospital provider and trust, for the years 2006-07 to workshops will be held regionally for strategic health 2008-09, have been placed in the Library. authorities and PCTs, and e-mail/telephone technical 913W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 914W support will be provided. The full programme of workshops Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for and support available to PCTs will be confirmed when Health on what dates his officials met external the template has been finalised. organisations during the preparation of the new draft The Department is also planning regional workshops dental access contract. [296463] for interested providers to inform them of the developments made to the Personal Dental Services Agreement and to Ann Keen: There is no new dental access contract. As provide introductory information on procurement part of its work to increase access to national health process—including information about how they can bid service dentistry, the Department’s Dental Access for new services. Programme has been developing a new contract template, which is designed to be adaptable to local needs, and is Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for within existing Personal Dental Services Regulations. Health (1) what timetable his Department has set for The template documents have been discussed with a public consultation on the new draft dental access wide number of organisations and interested parties. contract; [296459] Over 40 meetings have so far taken place. (2) what form the (a) pilot and (b) public consultation on the new draft dental access contract Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for will take; [296461] Health what estimate he has made of the cost of (3) in what ways the new draft dental access contract drafting the new draft dental access contract. [296464] programme takes account of the recommendations made in the report on the Independent Review of NHS Ann Keen: No accurate estimate is possible of the Dentistry. [296465] costs of drafting the new optional Personal Dental Services templates as the work has formed part of a Ann Keen: There is no new dental access contract. wider programme, which cannot be disaggregated. The contract template currently being developed by the Dental Access Programme is designed to be adaptable, Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State and includes a number of optional schedules for primary for Health (1) pursuant to the answer of 26 October care trusts (PCTs) to consider, based on what is best for 2009, Official Report, column 101W, on dental services, their local circumstances. The template is within the if he will place in the Library a copy of the notes seen current Personal Dental Services (PDS) regulations and by officials of his Department in relation to the visits Statement of Financial Entitlements. Its use is optional by the chief dental officer or his representatives to (a) for PCTs, many of whom are developing their own maxillofacial and (b) dental hospitals which were contracts, using the existing flexibilities within the subsequently used in the production of the report by regulations. the Postgraduate Medical Education and Training We intend, however, to use some of the contracts that Board on oral and maxillofacial surgery; [297659] PCTs will let using the new templates, to pilot aspects of (2) pursuant to the answer of 26 October 2009, improved quality and access, which were set out in the Official Report, column 101W, on dental services, on independent Steele Review of national health service what date each unit was visited; for what reasons each dentistry. As part of the development of the contract unit was selected for a visit; who the representatives of template, members of the Dental Access Programme the review body were at each visit; what the role of each have discussed the quality provisions with members of such representative was during the visit; in what format the Steele Review team. the data was collected in each case; and in what format No formal public consultation on the proposed, optional, the data was passed to the Postgraduate Medical PDS contract templates has been undertaken—nor is Education and Training Board secretariat. [297660] required. However, we have had a number of discussions with a wide range of interested parties including dentists, Ann Keen: The dates of the visits were Royal Lancaster PCTs, and the British Dental Association over the Infirmary 4 July 2007, Great Western hospital Swindon previous six months. 25 July 2007, Royal Sussex Brighton 6 November 2007, Sunderland Royal hospital 20 November 2007, Royal Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for London 21 December 2007, Southern General Glasgow Health on what date his officials commenced drafting 14 January 2008. The units were selected to enable the the new draft dental access contract; and on what date working group to meet with service providers in departments this work was completed. [296462] of differing composition and serving different population needs. The original programme of visits was extended Ann Keen: There is no new dental access contract. As at the suggestion of working group members and part of its work to increase access to national health contributors, to ensure that the working group saw an service dentistry, the Department’s Dental Access appropriate balance of type and size of unit. Programme has been developing a new contract template, All visits were made by selected members of the which is designed to be adaptable to local needs, and is working group and secretariat whose names are given within existing Personal Dental Services Regulations. on page 3 of the report. There was no formal programme, Work on the template started in April of this year, the intention was to give the staff of the units the and continues as we discuss it with interested parties. opportunity to present to the working group what they Discussions with interested parties have been ongoing saw to be relevant to the review. The terms of the review since April—the British Dental Association supported did not extend to formal reporting on the visits and any the initial national provider workshops in April with notes taken are not in an appropriate format for placing presentations. We hope to finalise the template very in the Library. The overall findings, as summarised in soon. the report, were that there should be no change to the 915W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 916W current statutory requirement for those training in oral work carried out by third sector groups, which support maxillofacial surgery to obtain primary qualifications people with Down’s Syndrome and their families. in both medicine and dentistry but that there should be “Valuing People Now”, published in January 2009 is a separate review of the specialty of oral surgery. This a strategy that addresses people with learning disabilities review is now underway. having control over their lives and services, including Departmental Public Expenditure what people do during the day, how they can be supported to access jobs, housing, better healthcare, and making sure that change happens. Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to implement the The Department funds the Congenital Anomaly Register efficiency recommendations of the Operational for Oxfordshire, Berkshire and Buckinghamshire Efficiency programme relating to his Department; and (CAROBB). CAROBB is based at the National Perinatal what training is available to (a) Ministers and (b) Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, and collects officials in his Department in respect of the delivery of information, including incidence data, on Down’s Syndrome and other congenital anomalies. Further details, including value for money savings. [296053] CAROBB’s first report, can be found at: Mr. Mike O’Brien: Following publication of the www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/carobb Operational Efficiency Programme, I have been appointed Haemophilia as the Department’s Value for Money Minister. The Department is working with Her Majesty’s Treasury and other delivery partners to implement the Mr. Charles Kennedy: To ask the Secretary of State recommendations of the Operational Efficiency Programme. for Health pursuant to the answer of 14 October 2009, There are a wide range of learning and development Official Report, column 900W, on haemophilia, what opportunities available for both Ministers and officials assessment his Department has made of the pathogenic in the Department, many of which contribute towards effect of multiple virus exposure on haemophiliacs; and the more effective delivery of value for money. if he will make a statement. [296896] Doctors: Sports Gillian Merron: The Department has made no such assessment. However, the UK Haemophilia Centre Doctors Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Organisation ensures that all relevant tests and assessment for Health how many consultant physician posts in for transfusion-transmitted infections are offered to sport and exercise medicine have been created in the haemophilia patients. NHS in the last three years. [295501] Health Services: Young Offender Institutions Ann Keen: Sport and exercise medicine is a new Mr. Pelling: To ask the Secretary of State for Health medical specialty, established in 2006, when four posts how much was spent (a) in total and (b) per inmate on were created and identified on the national health service healthcare for inmates of young offender institutions in work force census. It is not possible to say whether 2008-09. [296971] further posts have been created that have not been filled as this information is not collected centrally. Phil Hope: In 2008-09 healthcare allocations (including The following table gives the number of sport and targeted mental health in-reach funding) to establishments exercise consultants in the last three years. within the young offender institutions and young person estate totalled £29,108,000. Headcount Based on an operational capacity of 8,186 for the 2006 4 dedicated young offender institutions and young person’s 2007 4 estate as at January 2009, this equates to per place cost 2008 3 of £4,685. On average it can take between three and five years of Heart Diseases: Barnet Hospital full-time specialist training in a defined programme before a doctor can be appointed as a consultant in Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for sport and exercise medicine (SEM). Doctors with sports Health what progress has been made in developing medicine experience are not all going to be consultants treatments for cardiac conditions at Barnet Hospital; in SEM. and if he will make a statement. [296589]

Down’s Syndrome Ann Keen: The information requested is not held centrally.It is for local national health service organisations Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to plan, develop and improve services for local people. what recent assessment he has made of the adequacy of the level of provision of healthcare services for those Hospital Wards: Greater London with Down’s Syndrome; and what recent research his Department has evaluated on the incidence of Down’s Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Syndrome. [296806] Health what progress is being made on the introduction of the productive ward concept at (a) Phil Hope: The Department does not single out any Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals, (b) Northwick condition when raising awareness around learning disability, Park Hospital and (c) the Royal Free Hospital; and if although the Department recognises the excellent awareness he will make a statement. [296597] 917W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 918W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not £000 held centrally. It is for local national health service 2008-09 Annual 2009-10 Quarter 1 organisations to plan, develop and improve services for accounts surplus/ Forecast outturn local people. Organisation (deficit) surplus/(deficit)

Hospitals: Finance North West London 117 (12,000) Hospital NHS Trust Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Free Hampstead 3,791 471 Health what the percentage cost was of (a) surgical NHS Trust and (b) other treatments in (i) Barnet and Chase Farm The Department is working through the strategic Hospitals, (ii) the Royal Free Hospital and (iii) health authority to ensure that all the organisations Northwick Park Hospital as compared with the forecasting an operating deficit in 2009-10 are developing benchmark reference cost in each of the last three recovery plans to return to financial balance whilst still financial years; and if he will make a statement. maintaining and improving services to patients. [296646] Hospitals: Infectious Diseases Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not available in the format requested. Such information as is available is in the following table, which shows the Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for reference cost index (RCI) for these national health Health what the incidence of (a) MRSA and (b) service providers for the last three available financial clostridium difficile was at (i) Barnet and Chase Farm years. Hospitals NHS Trust, (ii) the Royal Free Hospital and (iii) Northwick Park Hospital in each of the last three RCIs including excess bed days 2005-06 to 2007-08 years; and if he will make a statement. [296596] 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Barnet and Chase Farm 104 99 96 Ann Keen: The information is not held in the format Hospitals NHS Trust requested. Royal Free Hampstead NHS 97 106 107 Data on the incidence of methicillin-resistant Trust Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) bacteraemia for 2006-07, North West London Hospitals 96 96 103 NHS Trust 2007-08 and 2008-09, and data on the incidence of Notes: Clostridium difficile (C. difficile) for 2007-08 and 2008-09 1. The RCI is the standard way of comparing reference costs between NHS Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust, Royal organisations, and is a widely recognised measure of relative efficiency. It is Free Hampstead NHS Trust and North West London not available for surgical and other treatments. 2. The RCI shows the average cost of an NHS organisation’s aggregate Hospitals NHS Trust are given as follows. activity, compared with the same activity delivered at the national average Cases of MRSA bloodstream infections reported under the mandatory cost. By comparing with the national average for each type of treatment, the surveillance scheme complexity of care provided is taken into account. An organisation with costs equal to the national average will have an RCI of 100, with higher cost MRSA bacteraemia 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 organisations scoring above 100 and lower cost organisations scoring below 100. Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals 62 54 30 3. 2005-06 reference costs were collected on a Healthcare Resource Group NHS Trust (HRG) 3.5 basis. Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 75 31 18 4. 2006-07 and 2007-08 reference costs were collected on a HRG4 basis. 5. The 2007-08 reference costs are the latest publicly available. North West London Hospitals 51 33 29 6. Reference costs are collected at trust level, and not hospital level. Northwick NHS Trust Park Hospital is part of North West London Hospitals NHS Trust. 7. A RCI of 125 means that the costs are 25 per cent. above the average while a Cases of C. difficile bloodstream infections in people aged two years and over RCI of 92 shows costs are 8 per cent. below the average. reported under the mandatory surveillance scheme (trust-apportioned number) 8. The RCIs are market forces factor (MFF) adjusted. Providers based in some C. difficile 2007-08 2008-09 areas of the country, e.g. London and the South East, have higher costs for staff, land and buildings due to external market forces. The MFF is a method Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 173 62 for taking this into account. Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 179 52 Source: Department of Health Payment by Results team. North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 211 155 Notes: Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. Data are published by acute trust. Northwick Park Hospital is part of North Health what the financial position of (a) Barnet and West London Hospitals NHS Trust and information for this trust is included in the tables above. Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust, (b) the Royal Free 2. Under the mandatory surveillance scheme, national health service acute trust Hospital NHS Trust and (iii) Northwick Park Hospital laboratories report all cases of MRSA bloodstream infections, not just those NHS Trust (i) is and (ii) was at the end of the most from in-patients, and include infections acquired in hospital and elsewhere. 3. Under the mandatory surveillance scheme, NHS acute trusts report episodes recent financial year; and if he will make a statement. of C. difficile infection in people aged two years and over. The scheme was [296647] ‘enhanced’ in April 2007 to include patient-level data for all patients aged two years and over. We are therefore only able to provide data for the last two years. 4. The ‘trust apportioned number’ refers to infections which are presumed to be Mr. Mike O’Brien: Data collected on a trust level. hospital acquired. Northwick Park Hospital is part of North West London Source: Hospitals NHS Trust, and so figures for the latter are Health Protection Agency, mandatory surveillance reporting schemes for MRSA shown. The figures are in the following table: and C. difficile infections. Hospitals: Reorganisation £000 2008-09 Annual 2009-10 Quarter 1 Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for accounts surplus/ Forecast outturn Organisation (deficit) surplus/(deficit) Health what progress is being made on the reconfiguration of services between Barnet and Chase Barnet and Chase Farm 155 3,000 Farm Hospitals; and if he will make a statement. Hospital NHS Trust [296648] 919W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 920W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: Steps have been taken to implement Data on accident and emergency (A&E) waiting times the Barnet, Enfield and Haringey Clinical Strategy, part is not available in the format requested. The Department of which, involves the reconfiguration of services at has set a national standard that patients should not wait Barnet and Chase Farm hospitals. Most of the Independent more than four hours in A and E departments from Review Panel’s recommendations have been implemented, arrival to admission, transfer or discharge. A 98 per with implementation of the rest already under way. cent. minimum operating figure allows for the minority of patients who clinically need more than four hours in Hospitals: Waiting Lists A and E. Latest data for quarter one 2009-10 shows Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust achieved 98.9 per Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for cent., Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 98.7 per cent., Health what his assessment is of the effects of the and North West London Hospitals NHS Trust, which abolition of waiting time targets on patients awaiting includes Northwick Park hospital, 98.5 per cent. The operations at Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS performance reported is the result of activity corresponding Trust. [296643] to A and E departments at sites within the trust and additionally activity at mapped type three facilities operated Mr. Mike O’Brien: As set out in the “Operating by partner primary care trusts and the independent Framework for the NHS in England 2009-10”, the sector. Data is split by A and E department type but is minimum expectation is that 90 per cent. of admitted not available at hospital site level. patients will start consultant led treatment within 18-weeks from the time they are referred by their general practitioner Published performance for the last full year and latest to start of their treatment unless it is clinically appropriate quarter for the three trusts has been: to do so or they choose to wait longer. Percentage of patients who spent less than four hours in A and E (all types) Latest figures for August 2009 show that 94.6 per 2008-09 Quarter 1 2009-10 cent. of patients at Barnet and Chase farm Hospitals Barnet and Chase Farm 98.5 98.9 NHS Trust whose treatment involved admission to hospital Hospitals NHS Trust started their treatment within 18-weeks, and 98.5 per Royal Free Hampstead 98.1 98.7 cent. of patients at Barnet and Chase farm Hospitals NHS Trust North West London 98.2 98.5 NHS Trust whose treatment did not involve admission Hospitals NHS Trust to hospital started their treatment within 18-weeks. For cancer waiting times, the operational standard Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for for the two week waits standard has been set at 93 per Health what the performance was as against waiting cent., allowing patients to exercise patient choice. time targets for (a) operations, (b) accident and emergency, (c) outpatient services and (d) cancer The information is shown in a table which has been services in (i) Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS placed in the Library. Trust, (ii) the Royal Free Hospital and (iii) Northwick Park hospital in the latest period for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [296645] Housebound Patients

Mr. Mike O’Brien: Data is collected at a trust level. Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for The figures for waiting times are in the following tables Health what estimate he has made of the number of (inpatient figures are a proxy for operations data): NHS patients in England who are housebound. [297501] The performance waiting time target for inpatients is 100 per cent. within 26-weeks. Ann Keen: This information is not collected centrally. Inpatient median waiting times—August 2009-10 Organisation Median waiting time (weeks)

Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals 5.8 Maternity Services: Greater London NHS Trust North West London Hospitals NHS 5.6 Trust1 Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 5.9 Health how many (a) midwives, (b) doctors below 1 The information requested is not collected by individual hospitals, it is consultant grade and (c) consultants were employed in collected by Trusts. Northwick Park hospital is part of North West London maternity services at (i) Barnet Hospital, (ii) Chase Hospitals NHS Trust, and so figures for the latter are shown. Farm Hospital, (iii) the Royal Free Hospital and (iv) Source: Monthly monitoring report (MMR)—provider based. Northwick Park Hospital in each of the last three August 2009-10 years; and if he will make a statement. [296586] Outpatient median waiting times—August 2009-10 Organisation Median waiting time (weeks) Ann Keen: Workforce planning is a matter for local Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals 4.5 determination as local workforce planners are best placed NHS Trust to assess the health care needs of their local population. North West London Hospitals NHS 2.6 The Department continues to ensure the frameworks Trust are in place to enable effective local workforce planning. Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 2.9 The information requested is not available in the Source: Monthly monitoring report (MMR)—Provider based. format requested. Such information as is available is in August 2009-10 the following table: 921W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 922W

National health service hospital and community health services, medical staff in the obstetrics and gynaecology specialty and qualified maternity services nurses by level within specific NHS trusts as at 30 September each year 2006 2007 2008

Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust All medical and dental staff 47 47 47

Consultant 10 12 15 All other grades 37 35 32

All qualified maternity services nurses 310 322 331 Nurse Consultant 111 Modern Matron 547 Manager 331 Registered nurse—Children 24 18 18 Registered midwife 243 252 266 Other 1st level 30 40 35 Other 2nd level 443

Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust All medical and dental staff 40 35 39

Consultant 11 9 14 All other grades 29 26 25

All qualified maternity services nurses 132 98 118 Modern Matron 004 Registered midwife 131 97 113 Other 2nd level 111

North West London Hospitals NHS Trust All medical and dental staff 46 46 44

Consultant 11 13 12 All other grades 35 33 32

All qualified maternity services nurses 230 229 250 Modern matron 005 Registered nurse—children 40 41 117 Registered midwife 116 120 117 Other 1st level 68 61 80 Other 2nd level 226 Notes: 1. Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust includes the following hospitals: Barnet General hospital, Chase Farm hospital, Edgware Community hospital, Finchley Memorial hospital and Potters Bar hospital. 2. Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust includes the following hospitals: Queen Mary’s hospital, Royal Free hospital, and the Royal Throat, Nose and Ear hospital. 3. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care is aware of the apparent drop in the number of midwives for this organisation in 2007. This is due to the inclusion of bank staff, which dropped to zero in 2007. The number of permanent midwives employed by the trust has remained steady in each year, at 92 in 2006, 97 in 2007 and 95 in 2008. 4. North West London Hospitals NHS Trust includes the following hospitals: Central Middlesex hospital, Northwick Park hospital and St. Mark’s. 5. Workforce statistics are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data. Processing methods and procedures are continually being updated to improve data quality. Where this happens any impact on figures already published will be assessed but unless this is significant at national level they will not be changed. Where there is impact only at detailed or local level this will be footnoted in relevant analyses. Source: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Non-Medical Workforce Census, and The Information Centre for health and social care Medical and Dental Workforce Census.

Medical Treatments Mr. Mike O’Brien: We have commissioned the University of York to undertake detailed research in this area. We expect the research findings to be published later in 2009-10. Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Neurology: Plastic Surgery what research his Department has commissioned into the merits of including societal costs and benefits Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for within technology appraisals made by the National Health whether (a) the Royal Free Hospital and (b) Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence; and if he St. Mary’s, Paddington offers (i) neurosurgery and (ii) will make a statement. [297452] plastic surgery services; and if he will make a statement. [296591] 923W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 924W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not Gillian Merron: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) held centrally. Primary care trusts are responsible for is working with the United Kingdom food and drinks using their resources to plan, commission and develop industry on a voluntary basis to reformulate foods to services to meet the health needs of their local community. reduce the levels of salt and sugar present in a range of foods and drinks, including those aimed at children, NHS: Equality focusing on those foods which contribute significantly to intakes of these nutrients. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for The FSA has set salt reduction targets for around Health what further measures his Department is 80 categories of food to be met by the food industry by considering to ensure racial equality and tolerance in 2010, and further stricter targets for 2012. In July 2009 the NHS. [297212] the FSA issued a public consultation which includes draft recommendations to the food industry to reduce Phil Hope: The NHS Constitution of 2009 has equality sugar levels and portion sizes of sugar-containing soft at its heart requiring national health service organisations drinks. to provide a comprehensive service, available to all The Government have regulated to limit the amounts irrespective of gender, race, disability, age, sexual orientation, of salt, fat and sugars served to children over the school religion or belief. day through the statutory school food standards (The The newly formed NHS Equality and Diversity Council, Education (Nutritional Standards and Requirements chaired by NHS chief executive, will champion equality for School Food)(England) Regulations 2007, as amended). in the NHS and seek assurances on future progress. The statutory standards provide nutrient standards to The Department will build on the work of a number be met for 14 nutrients within the food provision. To of programmes with a focus on equality. Race for support this, the FSA developed Target Nutrient Health is sharing learning about race equality to the Specifications for manufactured products served as part NHS, and Delivering Race Equality in Mental Health of school lunches. These voluntary specifications cover Care continues to generate system change. Pacesetters manufactured products across 40 food categories and actively works with the NHS to innovate, identify and provide guidance for the level of salt, total fat, saturated imbed good practice across all the equality strands for fat, and sugars within each category that if procured both patients and staff. would reduce these nutrients in the overall menu provision. In line with the NHS Constitution, the NHS aims to These specifications are currently under review. attract, retain and develop the best talent from all sections of the local communities they serve. The Operating Theatres: Greater London Department continues to work with NHS Employers and the NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for to promote good workforce practices and improve the Health for what percentage of time operating theatres career prospects of under represented staff. were in use at (a) Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals, Nurses: Manpower (b) the Royal Free Hospital, (c) Northwick Park Hospital and (d) Edgware Community Hospital in the latest period for which figures are available; and if he Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [296601] Health (1) how many district nurses are employed by (a) primary care trusts, (b) acute trusts and (c) GP Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not practices; [297550] held centrally. (2) how many district nurses were working in (a) general practices, (b) hospitals and (c) other health Palliative Care: Finance settings. [297551]

Ann Keen: District nurses are employed by national Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health health service trusts and NHS primary care trusts. They how much has been allocated to palliative care in (a) are not employed by general practices, hospitals or in England and (b) the West Midlands in each of the last any other health care setting. 10 years. [297493] The following table gives the number of district nurses employed in these two organisations as at the last work Phil Hope: We do not collect information on national force census, 30 September 2008. health service expenditure on palliative, and/or end of life, care services centrally. District nurse level 1 District nurse level 2 An additional £286 million revenue and capital funding Trusts 53 27 is being made available over 2009-10 and 2010-11 to Primary Care Trust 7,607 816 support the implementation of the End of Life Care Total 7,659 843 Strategy. For 2010-11, this includes capital funding of £40 million for hospices. However, the majority of the Nutrition: Children funding is being allocated to primary care trusts (PCTs) through the 2009-10 and 2010-11 revenue allocations, Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for so all PCTs will receive a portion of this funding. Health what his Department’s policy is in respect of the It is for PCTs to decide their priorities for investment regulation of the levels of sugar and salt contained in locally, taking into account both local priorities and the foods and drinks marketed at children. [296489] NHS operating framework. 925W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 926W

Patient Choice Schemes: Greater London continues to provide national support and guidance to ensure the choose and book system is utilised effectively Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for in all PCTs. Health (1) what the average time taken was to answer a Patients: Attendance call to the appointment booking system at (a) the Royal Free hospital and (b) Barnet and Chase Farm Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for hospitals in the latest period for which figures are Health what steps are being taken to reduce levels of available; what percentage of calls to each system were non-attendance at appointments at (a) Barnet and not answered in that period; and if he will make a Chase Farm Hospitals (b) Northwick Park Hospital statement; [296604] and (c) the Royal Free Hospital; and if he will make a (2) for how many rings on average a person seeking statement. [296602] to make an appointment via the telephone booking system at (a) the Royal Free hospital, (b) Barnet and Mr. Mike O’Brien: This is a matter for the local Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust and (c) Northwick trusts. In 2008 the NHS Institute for Innovation and Park hospital waited before being connected in the Improvement created a tool to be used by hospitals to latest period for which figures are available; and if he examine the causes for patient non-attendance and provides will make a statement. [296620] guidance on what hospitals can do to reduce the level of’ ‘did not attends’. Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not held centrally. Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what percentage of patients did not attend for Patient Choice Schemes: Hendon (a) operations and (b) out-patient appointments at (i) Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals, (ii) the Royal Free Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Hospital and (iii) Northwick Park Hospital in the latest Health what progress is being made in implementing period for which figures are available; and if he will the choose and book system for patients in Hendon make a statement. [296603] constituency; and if he will make a statement. [296600] Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information on the number of Mr. Mike O’Brien: The choose and book system is in patients failing to attend operations is not held centrally. place across all general practitioners practices in England Information on the number of patients who failed to including those in the Hendon constituency which falls attend out-patient appointments is collected by hospital under Barnet Primary Care Trust (PCT). The Department trust and included in the following tables.

Count and percentage of appointments1 where the patient did not attend2 in 2007-08 and 2008-093 (provisional full year) Provider code Hospital provider Total appointments1 Total did not attend2 Percentage

2008-093 provisional data (full year) RVL Barnet and Chase Farm NHS Trust 621,356 54,962 8.8 RV8 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 401,267 53,565 13.3 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 782,314 83,048 10.6

2007-08 final data

RVL Barnet and Chase Farm NHS Trust4 250,198 31,187 12.5 RV8 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 371,375 49,873 13.4 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 698,289 73,249 10.5 1 Appointment count: This provides a count of the number of planned/booked appointments for out-patients. The database is constructed of one row per appointment that was made, whether it was attended or not. 2 Attendance type: Attendance type identifies if the patient attended an appointment, and if it was first or subsequent attendance, or if the appointment was cancelled or the patient did not attend. This field is complete for over 99 per cent. of appointments. In this case, attendance types included in the count of total not attending, were: Four—did not attend first appointment Five—did not attend subsequent appointment Six—did not attend, first/subsequent/tele unknown 24—did not attend first tele consultation (2008-09 only) 25—Did not attend subsequent tele consultation (2008-09 only) 3 Provisional data: The data is provisional and may be incomplete or contain errors for which no adjustments have yet been made. Counts produced from provisional data are likely to be lower than those generated for the same period in the final dataset. This shortfall will be most pronounced in the final month of the latest period, i.e. November from the (month nine) April to November extract. It is also probable that clinical data are not complete, which may in particular affect the last two months of any given period. There may also be a variety of errors due to coding inconsistencies that have not yet been investigated and corrected. 4 Data Quality note: In 2007-08 there was a shortfall in the data submitted by Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust between August and December 2007. For this reason, the total appointment count and total did not attend count would have actually been significantly larger in this year and so caution must be taken before drawing any conclusions on this trust. Note: Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES); Out-patients, The NHS Information Centre for health and social care 927W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 928W

Patients: Greater London Hospital for (A) inpatient and (B) outpatient appointments in each of the last three years; and if he Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [296590] Health how many patients from the postcode (a) NW4, (b) NW7, (c) NW9 and (d) HA8 were treated Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information requested is not at (i) Barnet Hospital, (ii) Chase Farm Hospital, (iii) available in the format requested. Such information as the Royal Free Hospital and (iv) Northwick Park is available is in the tables as follows:

A count of in-patient finished admission episodes of patients from post codes HA8, NW4, NW7 and NW9 to Barnet and Chase Farm NHS trust, North West London NHS trust and Royal Free Hampstead NHS trust between 2008-09 and 2006-07 Postcode Code Provider 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07

Total 32,023 24,814 30,045

HA8 RVL Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 7,031 3,491 6,117 RV8 North West London NHS Trust 3,201 3,102 3,412 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 2,176 2,265 1,970

NW4 RVL Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 1,114 561 1,106 RV8 North West London NHS Trust 207 217 271 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 3,253 3,461 3,416

NW7 RVL Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 3,487 1,618 2,962 RV8 North West London NHS trust 151 170 219

RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS trust 1,064 1,229 1,091

NW9 RVL Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 3,154 1,484 2,557 RV8 North West London NHS Trust 5,162 5,160 5,089

RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 2,023 2,056 1,835

Notes: 1. We are unable to provide information for specific hospitals. We have provided data for the care providers to which the hospitals belong. Barnet Hospital and Chase Farm hospital are part of the Barnet and Chase Farm hospitals NHS trust, the Royal Free hospital is part of the Royal Free Hampstead hospitals trust, and Northwick Park hospital belongs to the North West London hospitals NHS trust. 2. The data provided are for activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. 3. In-patients are defined as patients who are admitted to hospital and occupy a bed, including both admissions where an overnight stay is planned and day cases. 4. A finished admission episode is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. It should be noted that admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 5. HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in NHS practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in out-patient settings and may no longer be accounted for in the HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. 6. HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England. Data are also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

A count of out-patient attended appointments of patients from post codes HA8, NW4, NW7 and NW9 to Barnet and Chase Farm NHS trust, North West London NHS trust and Royal Free Hampstead NHS trust between 2008-09 and 2006-07 Postcode Code Provider 2008-09 (Provisional) 2007-08 2006-07

Total 157,350 117,255 131,108

HA8 RVL Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 30,045 14,788 24,601 RV8 North West London NHS Trust 10,696 10,555 11,119 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 19,332 17,280 14,649

NW4 RVL Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 5,087 2,240 3,992 RV8 North West London NHS Trust 824 875 815 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 20,194 19,328 17,347

NW7 RVL Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 13,506 6,189 10,656 RV8 North West London NHS Trust 674 793 770 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS trust 9,447 8,793 7,374 929W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 930W

A count of out-patient attended appointments of patients from post codes HA8, NW4, NW7 and NW9 to Barnet and Chase Farm NHS trust, North West London NHS trust and Royal Free Hampstead NHS trust between 2008-09 and 2006-07 Postcode Code Provider 2008-09 (Provisional) 2007-08 2006-07

NW9 RVL Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust 14,164 6,702 10,995 RV8 North West London NHS Trust 17,871 16,334 17,162 RAL Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 15,510 13,378 11,628 Notes: 1. We are unable to provide information for specific hospitals. We have provided data for the care providers to which the hospitals belong. Barnet Hospital and Chase Farm hospital are part of the Barnet and Chase Farm hospitals NHS trust, the Royal Free hospital is part of the Royal Free Hampstead hospitals trust, and Northwick Park hospital belongs to the North West London hospitals NHS trust. 2. The data provided are for activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. 3. Out-patient HES data were collected for the first time in 2003-04. It is not mandatory to code procedures on outpatient records and therefore only around 2 per cent. of records have completed clinical codes. We have no reliable existing data source to validate these data against, as Department of Health aggregate returns have never collected clinical codes; it is not clear how representative the figures are. The data represent a sample of out-patient attendances. Statistical estimates (such as median and 90th percentile waiting times for main operations) must be regarded as potentially unreliable until it is possible to assess the quality of local coding. 4. This provides a count of the number of planned/booked appointments for out-patients. The database is constructed of one row per appointment that was made, whether it was attended or not however only out-patients that did attend have been included in the above table. 5. The data are provisional and may be incomplete or contain errors for which no adjustments have yet been made. Counts produced from provisional data are likely to be lower than those generated for the same period in the final dataset. This shortfall will be most pronounced in the final month of the latest period, i.e. November from the (month 9) April to November extract. It is also probable that clinical data are not complete, which may in particular affect the last two months of any given period. There may also be a variety of errors due to coding inconsistencies that have not yet been investigated and corrected. 6. HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in NHS practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in out-patient settings and may no longer be accounted for in the HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. 7. HES are compiled from data sent by over 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England. Data are also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital A patient focused leaflet is also planned to be issued shortly, which aims to assist pregnant women in making Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for an informed decision about vaccination. Health what plans the NHS has for future expenditure on the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital, Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Stanmore. [296583] what factors he took into account when assessing the risks to pregnant women arising from (a) Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Royal National Orthopaedic administration of the swine influenza vaccination and Hospital NHS Trust continues to work on their outline (b) contracting swine influenza; and if he will make a business case for the redevelopment of the Stanmore statement. [297545] site. Gillian Merron: Two vaccines have been licensed by School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme the European Medicines Authority for use in pregnant women in the United Kingdom. Licensing of vaccines, Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if including influenza vaccines, is held to a very high he will extend his Department’s free fruit and vegetable standard of safety and the vaccines would not be licensed scheme to junior school children; and if he will make a if they were considered unsafe. statement. [295910] In licensing the current swine flu vaccines for use in pregnancy, the European regulators gave careful Gillian Merron: There are no plans to extend the consideration to the severe burden of illness caused by School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme to junior school swine flu in pregnant women. Epidemiological evidence children. from North America, Australia and Europe shows that pregnant women are at increased risk of severe disease Swine Flu and influenza-related hospital admission. Figures from the United States have shown that pregnant women Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health who have swine flu are four to five times more likely to what (a) guidance and (b) advice his Department be hospitalised than the general population. plans to issue to (i) GPs and (ii) pregnant women to The Joint Committee for Vaccination and Immunisation assist each in making an informed decision on swine reviewed the two licenced vaccines and recommended influenza vaccination in individual cases; and if he will that pregnant women should be given Pandemrix. This make a statement. [297544] vaccine appears to give adequate levels of antibodies Gillian Merron: On 2 November, the Department after a single dose thereby conferring protection more issued a comprehensive briefing to all general practitioners rapidly than would be afforded by Celvapan, which about the swine flu vaccination programme and pregnancy, requires a two-dose schedule given three weeks apart. which covers the evidence, risks and benefits of the Urology: Greater London vaccine for pregnant women. The document has been placed in the Library and is available on the Department’s Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for website at: Health what plans the NHS has to improve urology www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ services at Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals; and if he Lettersandcirculars/Dearcolleagueletters/DH_107824 will make a statement. [296649] 931W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 932W

Mr. Mike O’Brien: Improving specific services is a The UK’s economic development efforts in Afghanistan matter for local determination. It is the role of primary are focussed on stimulating economic growth and job care trusts to ensure they commission services to meet creation through private sector and agricultural the needs of their local population. development, as well as building the capacity of the economic ministries. The UK (through the Department for International Development) contributes £30 million to Harakat, an investment facility working to encourage FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE private sector investment. The Department for International 2010 World Cup Development is also investing in the Supporting Employment and Enterprise Development programme, Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for which will create a fund to help Afghan businesses Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is develop innovative ideas, fund skills development, as taking to provide travel advice to British nationals well as supporting the Microfmance Investment and ahead of the 2010 World Cup finals; and if he will Support Facility for Afghanistan (MISFA) which has make a statement. [295023] extended micro-credit and savings facilities to over 440,000 Afghans. Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Brazil is working with a wide range of organisations to provide travel advice for British fans through our Know Before Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for You Go campaign and its associated partners, the Travel Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what aims and Advice service, and our High Commission in South objectives he has set for UK foreign policy in respect of Africa. Our official travel safety campaign will be launched Brazil. [297481] just before the 4 December World Cup draw. The campaign will regularly reinforce important safety messages in the Chris Bryant: Brazil is an emerging global power: run up to the World Cup using a variety of communication economically and politically.The Government’s overriding methods. We already provide advice and tips through objective is to be Brazil’s partner of choice as Brazil the website: takes its proper place as a global player: in foreign, www.fco.gov.uk/worldcup security and development spheres. which will be regularly updated. In particular, it is the Government’s aim to assist Brazil in using its upcoming elected term on the UN Afghanistan: Reconstruction Security Council from January 2010 in a way which will bolster its claim to a permanent member of the Security Dr. Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of State Council as part of a reformed UN. The UK also seeks a for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what greater role for Brazil in the weapons of mass destruction assistance the Government is giving to the government and disarmament agenda. As a long-standing declared of Afghanistan on negotiating trans-national contracts non-nuclear power, Brazil is important in persuading for the supply of raw materials. [297328] Iran to co-operate with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). The UK would also like Brazil to sign Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK does not provide specific the Additional Protocol of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, assistance to the government of Afghanistan on the to make full inspections of nuclear facilities the international negotiation of trans-national contracts for the supply norm. of raw materials. The World Bank is the main provider The UK continues to work closely with Brazil in the of such assistance in Kabul. The UK does however security sphere. In particular, the UK is keen to help continue to work with the government of Afghanistan Brazil capitalise on its experience in leading the UN on wider cross-border trade issues, including by supporting Mission to Haiti (MINUSTAH) so as to increase its fora such as the Regional Economic Cooperation capacity to play a greater role in security operations in Conference. conflict zones elsewhere, including Africa. Afghanistan: UK Trade and Investment The UK has also been working closely with Brazil to help make the case for reform of the international architecture to meet modern demands: not least the Dr. Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of State World Bank, G20, the UN and International Monetary for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Fund. It is our hope that Brazil use its influence within discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for others, such as the G77 and Non-Aligned Movement Business, Innovation and Skills on the establishment of (NAM), to persuade other countries of the case. a UK Trade and Investment representation in Afghanistan. [297329] On Climate Change, the UK works closely with Brazil on climate change—as a country with a relatively Mr. Ivan Lewis: Building up the basics of the licit clean energy matrix and with a strong commitment to private sector economy is vital before we can expect address deforestation. The UK sees Brazil as a key substantial UK investment in Afghanistan, therefore partner in helping to achieve a deal in Copenhagen. there have not yet been substantive discussions at ministerial The UK also seeks a more active role for Brazil in level on this issue. At present, UK Trade and Investment development, particularly in Africa with which Brazil has no presence in Afghanistan and does not proactively has traditional links and where Brazil’s techniques on support UK companies in this market. However, UK social protection are helpful. officials liaise periodically with our embassy in Kabul The UK is looking to develop a stronger bilateral and lobbying on behalf of British companies may be trade and commercial relationship with Brazil, including carried out on a case-by-case basis by the embassy. increased trade and investment which maximises 933W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 934W opportunities for both countries. On multilateral trade, The British Virgin Islands (BVI) and Montserrat Brazil and the UK share the view that a Doha Development have not published these statistics on their Government deal should be both market opening and pro-development. websites. Their best estimates of GDP per capita for the Both countries have a shared vision about the role that five years until 2008 are below in current prices: trade can and should play in enhancing opportunities for economic development. BVI (US$) Montserrat (EC$) Rio de Janeiro has recently been successful in its bid 2004 31,460 20,203 to host the 2016 Olympics. As London will be the host 2005 35,820 20,625 for the 2012 Olympics, this is an excellent opportunity 2006 37,970 22,803 for Brazil and UK to work closely together to maximise 2007 40,050 21,725 all the opportunities across a wide range of policy areas 2008 38,820 22,564 and a broad spectrum of mutual interests.

British Overseas Territories: Carbon Emissions British Overseas Territories: Internet

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether records Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what percentage are kept of the levels of carbon dioxide emissions of households in (a) Montserrat, (b) the British produced by the UK Overseas Territories in the Virgin Islands, (c) the Turks and Caicos Islands, (d) Caribbean. [293310] the Cayman Islands, (e) Bermuda and (f) Anguilla have access to high-speed broadband internet. [293300] Chris Bryant: Responsibility for environmental issues, including for maintaining records of carbon dioxide Chris Bryant: All of the Caribbean overseas territories emissions, has been devolved to the overseas territories. and Bermuda offer broadband internet access to the population but its speed and use varies between territories. British Overseas Territories: Databases British Overseas Territories: Renewable Energy Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the age is of the youngest person whose personal records are held Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for on the Overseas Territories Regional Crime Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether solar Intelligence System. [293306] photovoltaic systems have been installed on government buildings in the UK Overseas Territories Chris Bryant: The youngest person whose personal in the Caribbean; and whether any other green record (name, date of birth, sex, home address and technologies have been trialled. [293307] passport number) is held on the Overseas Territories Regional Criminal Intelligence System is aged nine. Chris Bryant: The installation of solar photovoltaic systems in the Caribbean Overseas Territories is a matter The data on the system are highly protected and are for Overseas Territory governments. not accessible by local IT network systems. All data stored on the system are protected under the UK Data Protection Act, and in accordance with the requirements British Overseas Territories: Telecommunications of the European Convention on Human Rights. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for British Overseas Territories: Gross Domestic Product Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what measures are in place to improve the telecommunications Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for infrastructure in the UK Overseas Territories in the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the gross Caribbean. [293301] domestic product per capita was for the UK Overseas Territories in the Caribbean in each of the last five Chris Bryant: Such measures are the internal years. [293309] responsibility of each overseas territory government, and differ widely in each case. Chris Bryant: The accuracy of gross domestic product (GDP) per head calculations in the Overseas Territories Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for varies, and data are not always available for every year. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what measures are It is not unusual for estimates to be revised after they in place to improve the telecommunications have been published. This is compounded by the variable infrastructure in the UK Overseas Territories in the populations of the Overseas Territories—a small change South Atlantic. [293302] in population can have a bigger effect on GDP per capita. Chris Bryant: The Governments of the South Atlantic GDP statistics are available on the following territory British Overseas Territories are committed to working websites: to improve their telecommunications services to meet the needs of their communities’ social and economic Cayman Islands: http://www.gov.ky/ needs. For example: Anguilla: http://gov.ai/ on the Falkland Islands, a system is being installed to offer Turks and Caicos Islands: http://www.turksandcaicos.tc/ internet connectivity to the dispersed population. Also, there government/ are plans to introduce revised legislation, and more effective Bermuda: http://www.gov.bm/ regulation; 935W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 936W

on St. Helena, a consultant has been engaged to advise on to ensure that Operation Kimia 2 does not cause harm negotiating and granting a new telecommunications licence in to civilians in eastern DRC; and if he will make a 2012. The St. Helena Government’s aim is that the new licence statement. [294736] will provide for improvements to the existing telecommunications infrastructure; Chris Bryant: The UK continues to support civilian and on Tristan da Cunha, possible suppliers are being engaged protection as the UN mission to the Democratic Republic on the feasibility of a new broadband wifi system to provide internet and telephony. of Congo (DRC) (MONUC)’s highest priority under UN Security Council Resolution 1856, and will do so Colombia for its new mandate. MONUC forces have performed well in very difficult circumstances. The UK is working Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for closely with the UN to address the security situation in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the the areas most vulnerable to violence. answer of 26 October 2009, Official Report, column MONUC’s response in this area includes deployment 67W, on Colombia: trade unions, what the cost was of of joint civilian-military protection teams, where civilian his visit to Bogota. [297471] staff specialising in different areas (human rights, child protection, civilian affairs etc) go out into the field with Chris Bryant: The Cabinet Office publishes an annual MONUC military and undertake a range of liaison list of overseas travel by Ministers costing in excess of activities with the local population to better understand £500. The list provides details of the date, destination their protection needs. MONUC has developed a and purpose of all such visits and the cost of Ministers’ conditionality policy as a means of withdrawing support travel and accommodation where appropriate. Copies from Armed Forces of the DRC (FARDC)units implicated of the list are placed in the Libraries of both Houses. A in serious human rights abuses. list of overseas visits undertaken by Ministers in the We also continue to urge DRC government of the period 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2010 will be published need to respect International Humanitarian Law and in due course. All ministerial travel is undertaken in not force Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) to return. accordance with the Ministerial Code. IDPs and refugee returns is a key strand of the DRC Colombia: Armed Forces government Stabilisation and Reconstruction Plan and the Humanitarian Action Plan. We will keep working with the DRC government to implement these plans in Mr. Love: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign coordination with humanitarian partners. and Commonwealth Affairs which official in his Department is responsible for monitoring the Departmental Rail Travel compliance with human rights standards of those Colombian security forces which have received training Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for or other assistance from the UK. [296718] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department spent on first class rail travel by its Chris Bryant: The monitoring of the human rights or officials in each of the last three years; and if he will other performance of individual Colombian military make a statement. [293208] personnel is the responsibility of the Colombian armed forces. Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Our embassy in Bogota keeps a record of Colombian spend on first-class travel within the UK was as follows: security force personnel who receive UK training, whether in counter-narcotics, human rights or humanitarian Financial year £ demining, in case information emerged to suggest that 1 they subsequently become involved in human rights 2007-08 10,537.25 abuses. No such information has emerged to date. 2008-09 49,700.00 2009-102 13,225.40 Disclosing the details of the record held by our 1 January to March. 2 Up to September. Embassy could endanger the lives of those involved. The Hogg Robinson Group took over the travel Colombia: Drugs contract in December 2007 and figures prior to this date are not available. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for UK Staff on duty travel are only entitled to first-class Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his rail travel when the journey time is over two hours, all Department has spent on counter-narcotics assistance other journeys must be made in standard class. in Colombia; and if he will make a statement. [297478] International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Chris Bryant: We do not disclose the value of our Yugoslavia counter-narcotics assistance to Colombia. To do so would put British and Colombian lives at risk. This Mr. Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for decision has been upheld by the parliamentary ombudsman. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to seek to ensure progress in proceedings Democratic Republic of Congo: Armed Conflict relating to Radovan Karadzic in the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. [296809] Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he Chris Bryant: The Government welcomed the arrest has taken to seek to encourage MONUC and the last year of former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic. Government of Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) The UK has provided co-operation to the International 937W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 938W

Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia to ensure Mr. Michael Foster: I have been asked to reply. that his trial was able to commence on 26 October. The The UK contributes to the Palestinian economy through handling of proceedings against Dr Karadzic’s is an budget support to the Palestinian Authority (PA) and independent judicial matter for the court. support to the development of the private sector. Since March 2008, the UK Government have provided Iran: EU Action £53.5 million in budget support to the PA through the World Bank Trust Fund. The European Commission Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for also provided £281 million to the Palestinian Authority Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions (PA) through its PEGASE mechanism in 2008. The he has had with his European counterparts on funding provided through the World Bank Trust Fund diplomatic action against Iran following the sentencing and PEGASE has enabled the PA to stabilise its finances of Hossein Rassam. [297573] and catch up with arrears of salary payments. This has helped stabilise the economy, reduce household debt Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and improve investor confidence. briefed EU partners in confidence at the General Affairs In May 2008 we set up the £3.3 million Facility for and External Relations Council on 26 October 2009 New Market Development to enable Palestinian businesses after receiving initial news of the sentence handed down to develop new products and research new markets for to Hossein Rassam. their goods. This project has helped over 180 companies Once the sentence was confirmed, the EU presidency in both the West Bank and Gaza. The UK has also issued a statement on 29 October 2009 condemning the funded two conferences to encourage investment in the sentence and making clear that action against one EU Occupied Palestinian Territories. These have resulted in member state was an action against all. the construction of a £25 million hotel development in EU partners also took co-ordinated action in summoning Ramallah, the establishment of the Palestine British Iranian ambassadors in capitals to underline their concerns Business Council, and training courses for Palestinian about this case, and the European Council expressed its IT professionals in Ramallah by Google. continuing concern about the situation of staff members of European Union Missions and European citizens in Iran who have recently been on trial, and called for their Middle East: Peace Negotiations prompt and unconditional release. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Israel: Nuclear Weapons for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to contribute to peace and stability in the Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Middle East; and what recent discussions he has had Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to his with the (a) Palestinian and (b) Israeli authorities on oral answers to the hon. Members for Islington North that matter. [296501] and Lewes of 20 October 2009, Official Report, columns 757 and 773, what steps he is taking to Chris Bryant [holding answer 2 November 2009]: persuade Israel to (a) abandon its nuclear capability From my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister down, and (b) sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. we work closely with the Israeli and Palestinian authorities, [295576] and our international partners, to promote efforts towards a comprehensive peace in the Middle East. Most recently, Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are clear in our call, both privately the Prime Minister spoke to Prime Minister Netanyahu and publicly, on Israel to accede to the nuclear non- on 15 October, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign proliferation treaty as a non-nuclear weapon state. We Secretary spoke to Defence Minister Barak on 13 October also call on Israel to ratify the comprehensive test ban and to Prime Minister Fayyad on 28 October. treaty. The Foreign and Commonwealth Permanent Under Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Secretary, Peter Ricketts, emphasised our commitment Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support the to a Middle East free of weapons of mass destruction in UK is giving to the Palestinian Authority to improve its meetings during his visit to Israel earlier this month. policing and security systems; and if he will make a We continue to believe that a negotiated solution to statement. [296623] the Arab-Israeli conflict, delivering a viable Palestinian State alongside a secure Israel, is a critical part of Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK provides considerable support achieving peace and security in the region. for security sector reform in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Middle East: Overseas Aid Since March 2008, we have been funding a £1.16 million project to provide the Palestinian civilian police with Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for information technology and communications equipment, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most and to help fund their criminal investigation training. recent assessment is of the effectiveness of funding We also support the work of the US Security Coordinator provided by (a) the Government and (b) the EU General Dayton. This includes advice to the Palestinian which has contributed to the Palestinian economy in Ministry of the Interior, and support to a Senior Leadership the latest period for which figures are available; and if Course which trains future leaders of the Palestinian he will make a statement. [296651] security sector. 939W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 940W

A strong and reformed Palestinian security sector is Justices of the Peace, Non-Governmental Organisations central to the peace process and the establishment of a and relevant municipal organisations, to reduce domestic successful Palestinian state. The reforms undertaken by violence. the Palestinian Authority have helped improve Israeli The FCO’s Human Rights and Democracy Strategic and US confidence in the capability of the Palestinian Programme Fund supports projects on equality, including security forces, and delivered economic benefits for tackling the structural and institutional roots of gender ordinary Palestinians. We will continue to work with the discrimination through effective implementation of Palestinian Authority to build on these successes and international law, but it does not have dedicated funds further improve the security situation in the Occupied for tackling domestic violence and sexual abuse overseas. Palestinian Territories. South America: Conflict Prevention Middle East: USA Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for answer of 13 July, Official Report, columns 108-9W, on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Colombia: land mines, for what reason the Conflict assessment he has made of relations between the Prevention Pool no longer funds projects in South United States of America and Middle Eastern America. [294787] countries. [293312] Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Mr. Ivan Lewis: Relations between the US and countries Secretary’s written ministerial statement of 25 March in the middle east are primarily a matter for those 2009 announced the Government’s arrangement for concerned. conflict funding in 2009-10. We have increased the We welcome President Obama’s speech in Cairo on resources available for conflict activity in 2009-10; a 4 June and his determination to make progress towards significant symbol of the importance we attach to these peace in the region. This offers a real opportunity and issues. However, we face competing demands and we we continue to work with the US and partners across cannot fund all activity to the same level as in previous the region to support progress towards this goal. years. The funding for Latin America was withdrawn as the limited funds available were allocated to regions Northern Cyprus where the risk and impact of conflict is greatest, including South Asia and the Middle East. The UK still undertakes Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for significant work in Latin America on issues such as Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will request human rights and democracy, climate change and counter- the Turkish Cypriot authorities to seek a reversal of the narcotics. We continue to work alongside international decision of their Higher Broadcasting Council to partners, including the UN, on conflict issues. forbid the use of Turkish Cypriot dialect on television Tibet: Human Rights and radio in northern Cyprus; and if he will make a statement. [295162] Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Chris Bryant: The Government are not aware of any Department is taking to (a) (i) monitor and (ii) witness decision to forbid the use of the Turkish Cypriot dialect the trial of the Tibetan film-maker Dhondup in the north of Cyprus. Wangchen who has been in detention in Tibet since March 2008 and (b) establish his medical condition. Overseas Aid: Domestic Violence [296883]

Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: We are aware of Dhondup Wangchen’s Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much case. We are concerned about his well-being following funding his Department has allocated to projects his continued detention pending a trial, and about the overseas to tackle domestic violence and sexual abuse conditions of his detention. His case was raised at the EU/China Human Rights Dialogue in Prague on 14 May in each year since 2001. [292777] 2009, where his name was included on an individual Chris Bryant: The Department for International case list. On this the EU side asked for clarification as to Development leads on this issue globally and supports the whereabouts and the grounds of his detention, as a range of initiatives aimed at tackling violence against well as for his release. Most recently, my hon. Friend, women, including domestic violence, through its Ivan Lewis, Minister of State for the Middle East and development assistance programmes. This has included the Far East, also raised this case during his trip to work in Ghana and Sierra Leone supporting the Lhasa and Beijing in September, reiterating our concerns implementation of new legislation on domestic violence; for his safety and welfare. The Chinese response was to and in Nepal, providing technical assistance to the inform us of the nature of his arrest, that the relevant Prime Minister’s Office on the National Campaign to Chinese authority raised charges against him and that end gender based violence. his case was under judicial proceedings. We will continue to raise this case at every appropriate opportunity. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has funded one related project on domestic violence overseas Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for in the recent past. This was a three-year community Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will seek policing project being run in Russia between 2006 and urgent clarification from the Chinese authorities on the 2009 (at a cost of approximately £300,000) by the whereabouts of Tibetans, Tenzin Phuntsok, Kangtsuk Global Opportunities Fund for Human Rights. The and Penkyi from Sakya county who each received a aim of the project was to train police officers on prevention death sentence with a two year reprieve in April 2009. of community and domestic violence, working with [296884] 941W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 942W

Chris Bryant: We have called on China to review Academies: Sponsorship urgently the cases of those who remain under sentence of death for their alleged involvement in last year’s Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for unrest. The fact that independent observers were not Children, Schools and Families if he will make it a allowed at these trials and that restrictions remain on requirement for organisations in charge of academies access to Tibetan areas, means that we have been unable to publish annual financial accounts, including details to verify that the human rights of the defendants were of salaries; and if he will make a statement. [296986] respected, or that the trials were free from political interference. This, together with reports we have received Mr. Coaker: All academy trusts (which includes from non-governmental organisations, gives us cause charitable trusts running more than one academy) are for real concern. We have also raised our concerns required to publish annual accounts in accordance with through the European Union. the Companies Act 2006. The Charity Commission has In the statement that I released on 23 October 2009 published a “Statement of Recommended Practice” condemning the recent executions in Lhasa of two which clarifies how charities should prepare their Tibetans (Mr. Lobsang Gyaltsen and Mr. Loyak), I accounts in order to reflect these legal requirements. made clear that while we respect China’s right to bring The Statement of Recommended Practice states that those responsible for the violence in Tibet last year to charities which are subject to a statutory audit (this justice, the UK opposes the death penalty in all includes academy trusts) should include a note in their circumstances, and we have consistently raised our concerns accounts disclosing the number of employees whose about lack of due process. emoluments were £60,000 or above, presented in I expressed my deep concern about all the death £10,000 bandings. The Department expects academy penalty cases during my visit to Tibet in September and trusts to comply with the “Statement of Recommended urged the authorities not to carry out the death sentence. Practice.” We will continue to monitor reports on these and other individual cases, and will request further information Anti-Semitism about a selection of cases of concern at the next round of the UK/China Human Rights Dialogue. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for United Nations Convention on the Physical Protection Children, Schools and Families how many meetings of of Nuclear Material the cross-departmental working group on tackling anti-Semitism his Department’s official responsible for Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for pupil safety and school responsibility has attended. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the [295894] answer to the hon. Member for Aylesbury of 21 October 2009, Official Report, columns 1516-17, on Ms Diana R. Johnson: There have been 10 meetings the UN Convention on Physical Protection of Nuclear of the Inter-Departmental Working Group to Tackle Material, if he will delay the planned timetable for Anti-Semitism since June 2007, of which seven have ratification of the United Nations Convention on the been attended by officials from the Department for Physical Protection of Nuclear Material until the Children, Schools and Families. Officials advising on relevant select committees of the House have had an security in maintained schools have not attended but opportunity to scrutinise the implications for United have briefed the secretariat directly or through their Kingdom nuclear policy of the amendments contained colleagues. A security official is expected to attend the in Cm 7685. [296518] next meeting. During the last two years DCSF Ministers have directly discussed concerns about Chris Bryant: The Department for Energy and Climate security in Jewish schools on several occasions with, Change, which holds the Government policy lead on among others, representatives of the Community the convention on the physical protection of nuclear Security Trust and the Board of Deputies of British material, has confirmed that it has not received a request Jews. Relevant decisions have taken such concerns into from a Select Committee to extend the 21 sitting day account. period, therefore the time period for scrutiny will end on 4 November 2009. Children in Care

CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES Mr. Martyn Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many children of Academies Enterprise Trust: Finance prisoners were taken into care by social services in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009. [295205] Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer Mr. Coaker: The requested information is not held of 9 September 2009, Official Report, columns centrally by the Department. 1930-31W, on the Academies Enterprise Trust, what funding was provided by each academy to the Children: Databases Academies Enterprise Trust in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [296987] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Coaker: We do not hold information on any Children, Schools and Families by what date local funding provided by academies to the Academies authorities are expected to have completed shielding Enterprise Trust. arrangements in respect of ContactPoint. [297332] 943W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 944W

Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 2 November 2009]: Department has established a public sector reform All local authorities confirmed completion of the team to implement service reforms; and what training initial shielding phase of ContactPoint in May. is available to (a) Ministers and (b) officials of his However, the shielding of individual records is an Department in respect of the delivery of value for ongoing activity. Additionally, local authorities will money savings; [296051] carry out regular (six monthly) reviews of shielded (3) what steps his Department is taking to implement records to ensure that the retention of the shield is still the efficiency recommendations of the Operational appropriate. Efficiency programme relating to his Department; and Children: Day Care what training is available to (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Department. [296061] Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Ms Diana R. Johnson: Responsibility for the Schools and Families how much he expects his Department’s value for money (VfM) remit has been Department to spend on the Graduate Leader Fund in assigned to me. This will include oversight of our (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; and if he will make a CSR07 Efficiency programme and the additional statement. [296948] Operational Efficiency programme (OEP) efficiencies Dawn Primarolo: The total amount for the Graduate agreed at Budget 2009. The department has not Leader Fund, available over three years between 2008 provided specific training, but she receives regular and 2011, is £305 million. This is made up of briefing on progress. £232 million for settings, routed via local authorities, Both of these programmes are managed by a value and £73 million for the Children’s Workforce for money team who coordinate activity across the Development Council (CWDC) to deliver Early Years department, throughout its NDPBs and within the Professional Status training and accreditation. Of the sectors in which they operate. £305 million, the Department allocated £99 million in Progress towards targets set for the CSR07 2009-10 and currently plans to allocate £129 million in Efficiency programme and the additional Operational 2010-11. These allocations are included within the Efficiency programme (OEP) will be stated in the 2009 wider main revenue block of the Sure Start Early Years autumn performance report in December 2009. and Childcare Grant, which is ring fenced to be spent on supporting the delivery of the Government’s Ten Departmental Telephone Services Year Strategy for Childcare and the local authority duties set out in the Childcare Act 2006. Local authorities have the discretion to decide how Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for much is spent on each area of activity, such as the Children, Schools and Families if he will consider the Graduate Leader Fund, in line with local priorities, merits of securing accreditation of his Department’s providing it contributes to the early years experience of helplines to the Helplines Association’s quality children in their area. standard; and if he will make a statement. [295730] Children’s Centres: Hertfordshire Ms Diana R. Johnson: All of the DCSF telephone help lines on which we hold information centrally were Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for contracted through COI (Central Office of Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer Information). of 12 October 2009, Official Report, column 204W, on All DCSF help lines run through the COI children’s centres: Hertfordshire, how many proposed Framework have one or more of the following centres planned to open by that date were not accreditations: Contact Centre Association (CCA), operational on that date. [296808] COPC (Customer Operations Performance Centre) and/or Customer Excellence. It is also mandatory for Dawn Primarolo: At the end of September 2009 them to either have or be planning to attain (in the next Hertfordshire local authority had a total of 12 months) the standards ISO9001 (quality 55 designated Sure Start Children’s Centres, with a management) and the ISO27001 (information further 27 planned to be designated by March 2010, in security). order to provide universal coverage of children’s centre There are no plans to use the Helpline Association’s services for children under five and their families. Of quality standard. the 55 designated centres, seven are located in Hemel Hempstead and six in Dacorum. All centres due for designation were designated and have been in Digital Communications Unit operation since September 2009 as planned. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Public Expenditure Children, Schools and Families how much has been spent by his Department on its Digital Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Communications Unit in each year since its inception; Schools and Families (1) what steps his Department is how many people are employed by the unit; and what taking to implement the efficiency recommendations of the unit’s functions are. [295508] the Operational Efficiency programme relating to his Department; [296048] Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Digital Communications (2) which Minister in his Department has been Unit was created in 2008. The programme budget in assigned responsibility for overseeing the delivery of the year 2008-2009 was £12.5 million and in 2009-10 value for money in his Department; whether his planned expenditure of £10.8 million. 945W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 946W

The number of full-time equivalent members of staff Free School Meals: Eligibility engaged in the Digital Communications Unit is currently 15 with no vacant posts, employed at a cost of Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for £713,387 for 2008-09, with planned expenditure for Children, Schools and Families if he will make it his 2009-10 being £705,553 The remit of the unit covers all policy to extend the provision of free school meals to online services from the Department including families on working tax credit; and if he will make a elements of Direct Gov, Teachers TV and essential statement. [296859] email communications and phone line support services to local authorities, Regional Government Offices and to all schools. Ms Diana R. Johnson: We have no plans to extend free school meals to families on working tax credit. Education: Finance However, we are currently running a two-year pilot in three local authorities in deprived areas to test Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, different approaches to free school meals. Schools and Families pursuant to the answer of Wolverhampton are extending the free school meal 20 October 2009, Official Report, columns 1408-9W, on eligibility rules to include pupils whose parents receive education: finance, how much of the allocation to working tax credit and have an annual income of up to Making Good Progress will be spent on the single level £16,040. Durham and Newham are piloting free school tests; and if he will make a statement. [296264] lunches to all primary pupils. We want to learn the lessons of those pilots before making decisions on any Mr. Coaker: The Department has allocated a total of national extension. £5.22 million to the Qualifications and Curriculum Development Agency during the financial year 2009-10 to develop and administer single level tests (SLTs). This GCE A-Level: Tamworth covers funding for SLTs as part of the Making Good Progress pilot, which ran until July 2009, and for the Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for extended SLT pilot, announced in the Department’s Children, Schools and Families what average total response to the Expert Group on Assessment’s report. point score was achieved by pupils taking A level or Funding has not been confirmed yet for the financial equivalent qualifications in each school in Tamworth year 2010-11. constituency in each of the last 10 years. [294095] In addition the Department is allocating in 2009-10 a participation allowance to schools participating in the Mr. Coaker: The information can be found in the extended SLT pilot of £2 per pupil to support Achievement and Attainment Tables found in the participation in evaluation activity. £0.4 million has House of Commons Library and published on the been allocated in this financial year for the independent following website: evaluation of the MGP pilot (which includes SLTs) and http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/performancetables/ of the extended SLT pilot. Figures for the 2008/09 academic year are not Family Courts: Guardians available until early January 2010.

Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Month Children, Schools and Families what recent representations he has received on the adequacy of supply of guardians in the family courts; and if he will Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State make a statement. [296505] for Children, Schools and Families how much his Department has given to support Gypsy, Roma and Dawn Primarolo: The Department is aware of issues Traveller Month. [294897] regarding the adequacy of supply of guardians in the family courts, and my officials are working with Mr. Coaker: Since its inception in 2008, the CAFCASS to address delays in allocating cases to Department has contributed £195,000 towards the guardians. costs associated with the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller A sharp rise in the number of care applications since history month in June 2008 and 2009. The funding has December 2008 has put pressure on the family justice been used to stage events around the country to raise system in general, and the supply of guardians in awareness, celebrate and explore the history, culture particular. As of 30 September 2009, CAFCASS had a and language of these communities, and to produce work load of 13,355 public law cases, 979 of which materials and resources for use in schools and local were awaiting allocation to a guardian. authorities. The month gives an opportunity to correct A number of steps have been taken to reduce the the myths, tackle the prejudice and offer a balanced number of unallocated cases. This Department recently view of issues facing the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller provided £1.6 million of additional funding to communities. CAFCASS in this financial year to tackle the backlog We have also established a Gypsy, Roma and in the London area. CAFCASS itself has developed Traveller Education Stakeholder Group, comprising operating priorities to enable guardians to manage representatives from all three communities. The group, their work load as efficiently and effectively as possible. in addition to offering advice, will actively engage in The President of the Family Division has also issued raising awareness and helping to change attitudes and Interim Guidance, to operate until March 2010, which behaviours, as well as supporting our work to improve aims to reduce the number of cases without guardians levels of ascription, attendance, transition and in the family courts. attainment to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller pupils. 947W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 948W

Home Education We are committed to rolling out a free entitlement to two year-olds, stage by stage. The most disadvantaged Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for two year-olds in every local authority can already Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has access a free place of at least 10 hours a week, 38 weeks made of the cost under each budgetary heading of per year. The Prime Minister recently announced that implementing each of the recommendations of the we will extend the two year-old places to 250,000 Badman Review of elective home education in children by end of the next Parliament. This is an England. [293619] increase of over 10-fold. Any future extension to the Ms Diana R. Johnson: We estimate, subject to offer will be considered when practicable. discussion with the Local Government Association, Pre-School Education: Finance that the overall additional costs for implementing the registration and monitoring elements of the Badman Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Review recommendations will be £21.65 million in the Schools and Families pursuant to the answer of 8 July first year with additional ongoing annual costs of 2009, Official Report, column 892W, on pre-school £9.78 million. education: finance, how much of the £363 million We estimate that an additional support package for unspent by his Department on early years capital home educated children will cost a further £21 million programmes in the financial year 2008-09 had been in the first year rising to £22 million in subsequent intended for the Quality and Access Early Years years. This is based on an estimated cohort of 25,000 Capital Grant. [291461] home educated children who all seek additional support. We know that this estimate may be too low Dawn Primarolo: Childcare, Quality and Access and we will adjust our funding commitments as Local capital forms part of the main capital block of the Sure Authorities get more clarity over the numbers of home Start, Early Years and Childcare Grant (together with educated children and the services they may seek. funding for children’s centres and, in 2008-09, The 28 recommendations are wide ranging but the workplace nurseries). The constituent parts of the financial costs fall into the following broad categories: block are not individually ring-fenced, allowing local Estimated cost authorities the freedom to spend the grant flexibly to £ best meet their local objectives. First Year Ongoing The Department does not require local authorities to Registration and 14,000,000 2,500,000 disaggregate their funding until they submit an audited deregistering from schools annual financial statement detailing how much they Monitoring 7,000,000 7,000,000 spent on each funding strand. For 2008-09 those Training 350,000 280,000 statements are not due before the end of October 2009. Evaluation 300,000 0 The Department’s accounts at year end need to be Support package 21,000,000 22,000,000 finalised before the audited returns are due from local Total 42,650.000 31,780,000 authorities. Therefore the under spend for Early Years’ Parents: Training capital is estimated based on the amounts claimed in year and the trend in historic spend rates. The Susan Kramer: To ask the Secretary of State for Department will be in a position to confirm those Children, Schools and Families how many parents have estimates and disaggregate expenditure on Childcare, attended a parenting course for separated parents Quality and Access once audited accounts are received. under the provisions of the Children and Adoption Primary Education Act 2006; and what assessment has been made of the effectiveness of such courses since December 2008. [278062] Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what percentage of Dawn Primarolo: As at the end June 2009, from children in primary schools linked to Phase One Sure national data collected by CAFCASS, 21 people had Start centres achieved the national standard in each of attended a Parenting programme under the provisions their key stage 1 assessments in the last 12 months. of the Children and Adoption Act 2006. It is too early [289321] to make any assessment of the effectiveness of this programme. Dawn Primarolo: We do not collect data on the Pre-School Education percentage of children in primary schools linked to phase one Sure Start Children’s Centres who achieved Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, the national standard in each of their key stage 1 Schools and Families when he expects all two to five assessments, and to collect this information would year-olds to have access to the pre-school entitlement involve disproportionate cost. The overall Early Years of 15 hours per week; and if he will make a statement. Foundation Stage Profile (EYFSP) results were [296949] published in a Statistical First Release on 14 October 2009. Dawn Primarolo: From September 2010 every three and four year-old will be eligible to receive 15 hours Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for free early learning per week for 38 weeks of the year. Children, Schools and Families how many children Most local authorities are already delivering the new attended (a) two, (b) three, (c) four, (d) five and (e) 15 hour offer to their 25 per cent. most disadvantaged 10 primary schools in the last year for which figures are children from September 2009. available. [295510] 949W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 950W

Ms Diana R. Johnson: The requested information measures at that inspection. Table A shows the Local Authority can be provided only at disproportionate cost. of the 54 pupil referral units which were not inspected by Ofsted; and Table B shows the Local Authority of the 37 pupil referral Pupil Exclusions units which received no more than one inspection, indicating where that inspection resulted in the unit being placed in special measures. Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families (1) for what average A copy of this reply has been sent to Vernon Coaker MP, Minister of State for Schools and Learners, and placed in the length of time a permanently excluded pupil missed library of both Houses. school through fixed-period exclusion before the Table A: Number of pupil referral units in each local authority which closed permanent exclusion took effect in each year for which during the last 5 years and had never been inspected by Ofsted figures are available; [296261] Local authority Number of pupil referral units (2) on how many occasions on average a permanently excluded pupil was given a fixed-period Bolton 7 exclusion before permanent exclusion in each year for Brent 3 Bristol City of 1 which figures are available. [296262] Bromley 1 Mr. Coaker: The available information for 2006/07 Cambridgeshire 1 and 2007/08 is shown in the table. Coventry 1 Doncaster 1 The table shows the average number of days that Enfield 1 pupils spent out of their school following one or more Essex 2 fixed period exclusions prior to receiving a permanent Havering 2 exclusion from the same school. This does not imply Hillingdon 1 that they missed education over the whole of this Hounslow 2 period, since the Education and Inspections Act 2006, Knowsley 1 which came into effect in September 2007, requires Lambeth 1 schools to provide full-time suitable education from the Lancashire 1 sixth day of any period of fixed period exclusion of six Leicester 1 days or more. Leicestershire 2 Primary, secondary and special schools1, 2, 3 average number and length of fixed Lewisham 1 4, 5 period exclusion prior to permanent exclusion England, 2007/08 Manchester 1 2006/07 2007/08 Medway 1 Average number of fixed period exclusions 2.3 2.2 Northamptonshire 1 received prior to permanent exclusion4 Reading 5 Average number of days of fixed period 10.8 7.9 Rotherham 1 5 exclusion prior to permanent exclusion Salford 1 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. Somerset 3 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies (including all-through academies). Southwark 1 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general Telford and Wrekin 1 hospital schools. Thurrock 1 4 The number of instances of fixed period exclusion of pupil enrolments who were subsequently permanently excluded by the same school, divided by the Trafford 1 total number of pupil enrolments who were permanently excluded during the Waltham Forest 3 year. Figures are as reported by schools. West Berkshire 3 5 The total number of days of fixed period exclusion of pupil enrolments who were subsequently permanently excluded by the same school, divided by Wokingham 1 the total number of pupil enrolments who were permanently excluded during Total 54 the year. Figures are as reported by schools. Source: School Census Table B: Number of pupil referral units which closed during the last 5 years and were inspected no more than once, and of these, which were placed in to special Pupil Referral Units measures at that inspection. Of these: number of Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for pupil referral units Number of pupil placed in special Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer referral units inspected measures at that of 9 July 2009, Official Report, columns 997-8W, on Local authority no more than once inspection pupil referral units, what the equivalent figures are for Barnsley 1 0 each local authority area. [294152] Bolton 1 0 Brent 1 0 Mr. Coaker: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM Chief Camden 1 0 Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the hon. Cornwall 2 1 Member and a copy of her reply has been placed in the Coventry 1 0 Libraries. Essex 2 0 Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 20 October 2009: Gloucestershire 1 0 Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as Hampshire 1 0 Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for response. Islington 1 1 In my response to Parliamentary Question 282023 of 9 July Lambeth 1 0 2009, I indicated that 130 pupil referral units are recorded as Lancashire 1 1 having closed between 1 June 2004 and 31 May 2009. Of these, Leeds 1 0 54 were never inspected by Ofsted and 37 had received no more Leicester 1 0 than one inspection. Eight of these 37 were placed in special 951W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 952W

Table B: Number of pupil referral units which closed during the last 5 years and Schools: Finance were inspected no more than once, and of these, which were placed in to special measures at that inspection. Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Of these: number of pupil referral units Children, Schools and Families in what ways the Number of pupil placed in special additional funding allocated to schools for 2009-2012 referral units inspected measures at that will be used. [296395] Local authority no more than once inspection

Lewisham 1 0 Mr. Coaker: The dedicated schools grant, which Liverpool 1 1 provides core funding for schools, increased by an Milton Keynes 1 1 average 3.7 per cent. in 2009-10 and will increase by an North East 11average 4.3 per cent. in 2010-11. All schools will get a Lincolnshire minimum guaranteed increase of 2.1 per cent. per pupil North Tyneside 1 0 per year to cover cost pressures such as increases in Northamptonshire 1 0 teachers’ pay. In addition there is significant headroom Nottinghamshire 1 0 in the settlement to pay for ministerial priorities such as Portsmouth 1 0 more personalised learning to help raise standards and Rotherham 1 0 narrow the gaps in achievement, but it is up to schools Salford 1 0 to decide how best they can use this funding to support Somerset 3 0 children’s outcomes. Southwark 1 1 Schools: Lancashire Stockton-on-Tees 1 0 Stoke-on-Trent 1 1 Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Telford and Wrekin 1 0 Children, Schools and Families how much his West Berkshire 2 0 Department has spent on refurbishment of (a) Wigan 2 0 primary and (b) secondary schools in (i) Chorley and Total 37 8 (ii) Lancashire in each year since 1997. [296751] Mr. Coaker: School capital funding is allocated on a Pupils: Immigrants local authority basis and prioritised locally. Accordingly, central records are not maintained on a Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for constituency basis, nor on the split of expenditure Children, Schools and Families what research his between primary and secondary schools. Department has (a) undertaken, (b) commissioned Refurbishment consists both of capital improvement and (c) evaluated on the educational achievement of and revenue repair. Because of this, the capital children of (i) Bangladeshi and (ii) Pakistani origin in allocations listed in the table will have been the last five years. [296939] supplemented by the use of revenue funding prioritised locally. In addition, Lancashire may have had other capital receipts which it put towards refurbishment. Ms Diana R. Johnson: In the last five years this Department has (a) undertaken two pieces of internal The following table sets out Lancashire school analysis entitled “2006—Ethnicity and Education: The capital allocations from 1996-97 to 2009-10. Evidence on Minority Ethnic Pupils aged five–16” and “2007—Ethnicity and Degree Attainment”; and, (b) £ million commissioned two pieces of research entitled “2004— 1996-97 12.9 Inclusion and Pupil Achievement” and “2009—Drivers 1997-98 13.3 and Challenges to raising the achievement of pupils 1998-99 19.5 from Bangladeshi, Somali and Turkish backgrounds”, 1999-2000 36.8 all of which have included the educational achievement 2000-01 42.2 of Bangladeshi and Pakistani children. 2001-02 40.6 2002-03 63.7 Reading: Nottingham 2003-04 72.7 2004-05 60.6 Mr. Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2005-06 133.0 Schools and Families what proposals his Department 2006-07 150.5 has to encourage Nottingham City Council to take up 2007-08 182.5 the Every Child A Reader scheme; and if he will make 2008-09 62.4 2009-10 132.2 a statement. [296762] The large allocations from 2005-06 to 2009-10, Ms Diana R. Johnson: Nottingham city council has excepting 2008-09, include a total allocation of been part of the Every Child a Reader programme £332 million in respect of the Building Schools for the since 2008-09. Key Stage 1 results for reading are still Future programme. below the national average of 84 per cent., and now Schools: Norwich 78 per cent. of children achieve at least level 2. Nottingham city council employs seven Reading Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Recovery Teachers, with another four being trained this Children, Schools and Families what capital funding year, and they have a share of the Teacher Leader was allocated to schools in Norwich North employed by their consortium of three local constituency in (a) 1997, (b) 2007 and (c) 2008. authorities. [296344] 953W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 954W

Mr. Coaker: School capital funding is allocated on a Within school pupil:teacher ratios1 in state funded schools. Years: January local authority basis and prioritised locally. 2009. Coverage: Norwich, North constituency LA estab. Accordingly, central records are not maintained on a number School name PTR constituency basis. Allocations to Norfolk in the financial year 1997-98 are £4.9 million, in 2007-08 9264043 Sprowston Community 17.8 £55.9 million, and in 2008-09 £42.3 million. High School 9264070 Sewell Park College 17.7 The high figure of £55.9 million in 2007-08 includes 9264083 Thorpe St. Andrew School 16.6 an allocation of £5.3 million for successful and popular 9264084 Taverham High School 18.8 schools, and £9.9 million for basic heed expansion. Special Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for 9267006 Hall School 9.4 Children, Schools and Families what the average teacher-pupil ratio is for each school in Norwich North Academy constituency. [296345] 9266905 The Open Academy 13.0 1 The within school PTR is calculated by dividing the total FTE number of pupils on roll in schools by the total FTE number of qualified teachers Mr. Coaker: The following table provides the within regularly employed in schools. school pupil to teacher ratios (PTR) in state funded For statistical purposes only, pupils who do not attend both morning and afternoon at least five days a week are regarded as part-time. Each part-time schools in Norwich, North constituency, January 2009. pupil is treated as 0.5 FTE. Within school pupil:teacher ratios1 in state funded schools. Years: January Source: 2009. Coverage: Norwich, North constituency School Census LA estab. number School name PTR Schools: Standards Primary Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 9262146 Sprowston Junior School 23.1 Schools and Families what the cost to his Department 9262147 Sprowston Infant School 20.8 of the School Improvement and Targets Unit was in 9262160 Hillside Avenue Primary 23.7 the latest period for which figures are available; and if School, Thorpe he will make a statement. [296950] 9262161 St. William’s Primary 24.0 School Mr. Coaker: I refer the hon. Member to my reply of 9262247 Firside Junior School 24.8 21 October 2009, Official Report, column 15601W. 9262251 Cecil Gowing Infant School 22.6 9262266 Falcon Junior School 19.1 Schools: Vetting 9262267 White Woman Lane Junior 20.0 School Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for 9262271 Heather Avenue Infant 19.6 Children, Schools and Families whether he plans to School issue guidance on Independent Safeguarding Authority 9262283 Nightingale Infant School 23.8 vetting arrangements in relation to parental visits to 9262289 Arden Grove Infant and 19.3 schools. [297221] Nursery School 9262303 George White Junior School 14.8 Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 2 November 2009]: 9262308 Mousehold Infant and 20.6 Parental visits to schools, to meet teachers or to watch Nursery School a school play or sports match, are not covered by the 9262312 Angel Road Junior School 20.9 new Vetting and Barring scheme. This is made clear in 9262320 Angel Road Infant School 30.2 the interim guidance on the scheme that was published 9262361 Kinsale Infant School 24.1 on 12 October 2009, copies of which are in the House 9262362 Kinsale Junior School 19.3 Libraries and which can be found on the ISA website at 9262364 Lodge Lane Infant School 26.8 this address: 9262382 Sparhawk Infant School 19.8 www.isa-gov.org.uk/default.aspx?page=402 and Nursery 9262384 Garrick Green Infant 28.2 This point will also be clearly highlighted in the School guidance relating to registration with the scheme, 9262395 Ghost Hill Infant and 20.0 which will be published in due course. Nursery School 9262424 Drayton Community Infant 26.6 Special Educational Needs: North West School 9263060 Old Catton CofE VC Junior 19.1 Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for School Children, Schools and Families how much funding his 9263085 Taverham Junior School 20.5 Department has allocated to special needs provision in 9263152 Drayton CofE Junior 26.7 (a) Lancashire and (b) each county in the North West School in each year since 1997. [296752] 9263423 Heartsease Primary School 18.9 9263424 Mile Cross Primary School 19.6 Ms Diana R. Johnson: The available information on 9263425 Catton Grove Primary 18.0 how much funding has been allocated to special needs School provision in each local authority in (a) Lancashire and 9263430 Dussindale Primary School 19.4 (b) the East of England in each county in the north-west in each year since 1997 is contained within Secondary the following table. Data are not available prior to 9264005 Hellesdon High School 17.9 2000-01. 955W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 956W

Budgeted net expenditure on the provision of education for children with special educational needs by local authorities in England since 2000-01 £ Local authority name 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

England 2,763,226,000 2,908,380,000 3,038,661,000 3,466,180,000 3,774,757,000 4,120,549,000 4,481,245,000 4,863,604,000 5,094,462,000 5,188,355,000

North 399,633,000 413,714,000 436,147,000 490,648,000 517,610,000 569,474,000 621,745,000 665,716,000 693,192,000 707,805,000 West GOR Blackburn 13,775,000 13,667,000 14,392,000 16,207,000 17,320,000 19,210,000 20,652,000 23,552,000 17,180,000 17,716,000 and Darwen Blackpool 10,260,000 10,533,000 9,985,000 12,895,000 12,827,000 13,556,000 14,241,000 15,020,000 16,326,000 16,852,000 Bolton 14,605,000 14,943,000 15,900,000 17,216,000 18,983,000 19,429,000 21,987,000 22,747,000 24,449,000 24,513,000 Bury 9,455,000 9,938,000 11,099,000 12,551,000 13,375,000 15,915,000 16,940,000 17,891,000 20,186,000 21,214,000 Cheshire 31,671,000 33,787,000 36,732,000 43,613,000 47,962,000 58,423,000 65,851,000 69,129,000 74,423,000 — (Pre-LGR) Cheshire —————————36,936,000 East Cheshire —————————38,974,000 West and Chester Cumbria 22,777,000 23,761,000 29,097,000 28,807,000 29,383,000 29,903,000 32,848,000 35,418,000 35,841,000 34,565,000 Halton 9,276,000 9,500,000 9,753,000 10,931,000 11,073,000 11,452,000 11,664,000 12,178,000 12,063,000 12,572,000 Knowsley 10,137,000 10,802,000 12,973,000 13,548,000 13,715,000 14,292,000 14,481,000 16,088,000 18,773,000 18,304,000 Lancashire 79,766,000 82,826,000 86,666,000 99,347,000 106,320,000 109,113,000 118,120,000 128,721,000 126,573,000 130,680,000 Liverpool 25,981,000 26,125,000 28,671,000 26,140,000 25,510,000 29,166,000 31,394,000 34,413,000 37,037,000 37,451,000

Manchester 24,053,000 26,238,000 28,448,000 35,869,000 33,912,000 38,646,000 54,584,000 58,501,000 62,021,000 67,042,000 Oldham 12,723,000 13,335,000 13,056,000 14,871,000 15,819,000 17,680,000 17,486,000 20,261,000 21,989,000 22,190,000 Rochdale 11,384,000 11,841,000 13,400,000 14,687,000 15,671,000 17,076,000 18,455,000 19,294,000 20,667,000 21,557,000

Salford 15,807,000 16,268,000 15,763,000 18,548,000 20,283,000 30,012,000 24,211,000 24,178,000 25,167,000 23,803,000 Sefton 15,161,000 14,700,000 15,122,000 16,495,000 17,523,000 18,539,000 20,391,000 20,786,000 20,740,000 20,513,000 St. Helens 8,987,000 9,277,000 9,477,000 11,612,000 12,156,000 12,037,000 13,067,000 13,775,000 14,470,000 14,488,000 Stockport 12,546,000 14,109,000 13,252,000 14,181,000 17,038,000 20,558,000 20,963,000 20,941,000 22,330,000 23,282,000 Tameside 11,394,000 11,734,000 10,584,000 12,381,000 13,271,000 14,151,000 14,978,000 17,793,000 17,125,000 17,637,000 Trafford 10,841,000 11,167,000 12,073,000 14,494,000 15,917,000 17,799,000 18,355,000 19,640,000 21,660,000 23,381,000 Warrington 9,340,000 9,803,000 10,150,000 11,357,000 12,315,000 13,275,000 15,056,000 16,477,000 19,412,000 19,872,000 Wigan 19,757,000 17,858,000 18,177,000 20,046,000 21,306,000 21,391,000 24,929,000 26,272,000 27,419,000 27,703,000 Wirral 19,936,000 21,501,000 21,377,000 24,853,000 25,931,000 27,849,000 31,093,000 32,642,000 37,343,000 36,561,000 Notes: 1. The data are drawn from local authorities Section 52 Budget Statements (Tables 1 and 2) submitted to the DCSF. 2. Includes planned expenditure on the provision for pupils with statements and the provision for non-statemented pupils with SEN, support for inclusion, inter authority recoupment, fees for pupils at independent special schools and abroad, educational psychology service, local authority functions in relation to child protection, therapies and other health related services, parent partnership, guidance and information, the monitoring of SEN provision and inclusion administration, assessment and co-ordination. Also included is the funding delegated to nursery, primary and secondary schools identified as “notional SEN” and the individual schools budget (ISB) for special schools. 3. The ISB for special schools will include some general education costs for pupils with SEN in addition to those costs specifically for SEN while the figures recorded against “notional SEN” are only indicative of the amount that might by spent by schools on SEN and, from 2004-05 onwards, “notional SEN” delegated to nursery schools was reported on section 52 for the first time (nursery schools ″notional SEN″ accounts for £7.8 million, £9.5 million, £10.4 million, £11.1 million and £11.7 million of the respective 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09 England totals). In 2005-06, 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09 local authorities in England also budgeted £499.6 million, £528.5 million, £554.9 million and £552.6 million for SEN transport expenditure but this is not included in the above table as figures are not available prior to 2005-06. 4. From 2009-10 figures no longer include LA functions in relation to child protection which was previously included within SEN section of budget Table1.Itis now included within Children and Young People’s Safety section of the table. 5. Cheshire LA ceased to exist and became two new authorities (Cheshire East and Cheshire West and Chester) as part of the LGR on 1 April 2009. 6. Figures are rounded to the nearest thousand pounds and may not sum due to rounding. Cash terms figures as reported by local authorities as at 28 October 2009.

Specialised Diplomas Specialised Diplomas: Finance

Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the cost to date Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for has been of the diploma aggregation service; and how Children, Schools and Families how many pupils much is expected to be spent on the service in each of began studying for a diploma in September 2009. the next five years. [296516] [295279] Mr. Coaker: The Diploma Aggregation Service is designed and managed by the Qualifications and Mr. Iain Wright: Figures from local authorities will Curriculum Development Authority to enable the have been completed, returned and confirmed by the aggregation and awarding of diplomas. It became end of the year. operational in September 2008. The total cost of the 957W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 958W service during its initial development phase (April 2006 achieving the equivalent of five or more good GCSEs to 31 August 2008) was £18 million. Since then we have rose by 17 percentage points (from 23 per cent. to 40 per continued to invest in both enhancing and maintaining cent.), in comparison with a 13.3 percentage point rise the service. In the subsequent period to the end of the for non-free school meals pupils. current financial year (September 2008 to March 2010) Of course there is more to be done and in ‘Breaking the estimated additional cost of investment and the Link between disadvantage and low attainment’ and maintenance is £6.4 million, with running costs in the the Schools White Paper we set out a wide range of following financial year estimated at £2.2 million. Later further plans. These include a proposal to include a financial years will be considered as part of the next measure of schools’ progress in narrowing attainment spending review process. gaps for their disadvantaged pupils in the new school report card, (on which we are currently consulting). Mr. Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what recent steps his Department has taken to increase levels of educational Teachers: Absenteeism opportunity for children from the most deprived households. [296519] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what steps his Mr. Coaker: Increasing levels of educational opportunity Department is taking to seek to reduce the level of for disadvantaged children is a top priority for this absences due to stress amongst school staff. [296524] Government. This is reflected in one of the Government’s public service agreements which commits us to: Mr. Coaker: The Department recognises that there narrowing achievement gaps at the Early Years Foundation are a variety of factors that contribute to stress among Stage; teachers and the wider school workforce. Accordingly narrowing the achievement gap between pupils eligible for free school meals and their peers at key stages 2 and 4; we have put in place a range of measures to address the causes. narrowing gaps in the proportion of pupils progressing by two levels in English and mathematics at the end of key stages 2, 3 Through our ongoing work with social partners, we and 4; are undertaking a significant programme of workforce increasing the numbers of Looked After Children reaching reform to help address those causes associated with Level 4 in English at key stage 2 and reaching Level 4 in workload. The National Agreement on Raising Standards mathematics at key stage 2; and Tackling Workload, which was signed in January increasing the numbers of Looked After Children achieving 2003, led to guaranteed time for planning, preparation five or more good GCSEs at key stage 4; and and assessment, limits on the amount of cover teachers narrowing the gap between full-time higher education initial could do, and a transfer of admin tasks to support staff, participation rates for young people aged 18-20 from the top all of which help address the issue of workload. There three and the bottom four socio-economic classes. have also been increases in the number of teachers and As part of our programme of work to deliver this support staff working in schools. Since 1997, the number PSA, we have introduced a range of initiatives designed of support staff has more than doubled and teacher to increase the level of educational opportunities for numbers have risen by over 40,000. pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds, from their early Encouraging better pupil behaviour and attendance years right though to early adulthood. For example, also has a direct impact on reducing teacher stress. That from this September we are extending free early learning is why we are investing in a comprehensive national opportunities to the most disadvantaged two year-olds programme to strengthen schools’ capacity to manage and their families and we are beginning to roll out pupil behaviour. one-to-one tuition on a national basis to pupils in key stages 2 and 3 who are falling behind. In addition we have encouraged better management of school workforce health matters through improved Targeted programmes such as the Extra Mile pathfinder occupational health guidance for schools and local and the extended services pilot for disadvantaged children authorities, and we are working with employers to are raising the aspirations and attainment of individual encourage early intervention to avoid ill health retirements. pupils. Last December, we legislated to require local We have reinforced these moves through the release of authorities to set targets for the attainment of all free guidance on common mental health problems which school meals pupils, to help ensure that help and support give practical advice on positive action to support teachers are targeted where they are most needed. And the and the wider workforce through the stresses and strains Aimhigher Programme is raising aspirations in 41 areas that can arise through life and work. by providing summer schools, university visits and masterclasses to 14-19 year-olds from low income households, as well as to Looked After Children and Teachers: Lancashire disabled young people from all backgrounds. All of this work is having an impact. The 2009 Early Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for YearsFoundation Stage Profile results show that children Children, Schools and Families how many (a) teachers living in the most disadvantaged areas are improving and (b) teaching assistants were working for faster than their peers—the gap has narrowed from 16 Lancashire Education Authority (i) in 1997 and (ii) on per cent. last year to 15 per cent. this year. In schools the most recent date for which figures are available. too, while the performance of all pupils has improved [296835] substantially over the last decade, some of the fastest progress has been made by children eligible for free Mr. Coaker: The information requested is published school meals. To give just one example, between 2002 in tables 19 and 26 of the Statistical First Release (SFR) and 2008, the percentage of free school meals pupils “School Workforce in England (including Local Authority 959W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 960W level figures) January 2009 (Revised)” published on mathematics specialist initial teacher training there 29 September 2009. The SFR is available at the following were in (a) 2002, (b) 2004, (c) 2006 and (d) 2008; and web link: what percentage of the Department’s target for each http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000874/ year these figures represented. [296513] Tables19to27_Vals.xls Teachers: Training Mr. Coaker: The available information is given in the Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for table. Children, Schools and Families how many entrants for

Initial teacher training: Recruitment and place numbers. Years: 2001/02 to 2008/09. Coverage: England 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09

Recruitment

1. College based courses Primary and Secondary 29,190 31,280 33,930 34,520 33,700 32,650 31,350 31,270 Of which:

Secondary 16,060 16,760 18,290 17,980 17,440 17,040 16,230 15,950 Of which:

Specialising in Mathematics 1,550 1,670 1,940 2,030 1,920 2,000 1,970 2,040

2. College based courses and employment based routes Primary and Secondary 33,320 36,090 40,740 42,000 40,920 40,020 38,360 36,380 Of which:

Secondary 18,580 19,870 22,590 22,720 21,970 21,710 20,800 19,260 Of which:

Specialising in Mathematics 1,860 2,060 2,510 2,590 2,440 2,480 2,420 2,380

ITT places

1. College based courses

Primary and Secondary 29,890 31,790 34,675 35,800 34,300 32,800 31,300 n/a Of which:

Secondary 17,390 17,790 19,475 19,500 18,500 17,500 16,500 n/a Of which:

Specialising in Mathematics 1,940 1,940 2,315 2,350 2,350 2,350 2,350 n/a

2. College based courses and employment based routes Primary and Secondary n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 36,845 Of which:

Secondary n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 19,385 Of which:

Specialising in Mathematics n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 2,735

Percentage of recruitment against place numbers 1. College based courses

Primary and Secondary 97.7 98.4 97 8 96.4 98.3 99.5 100.2 n/a Of which:

Secondary 92.3 94.2 93.9 92.2 94.3 97.4 98.4 n/a Of which:

Specialising in Mathematics 80.1 86.3 83.9 86.3 81.7 84.9 84.0 n/a

2. College based courses and employment based routes Primary and Secondary n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 98.7 Of which:

Secondary n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 99.3 961W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 962W

Initial teacher training: Recruitment and place numbers. Years: 2001/02 to 2008/09. Coverage: England 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 of which: Specialising in Mathematics n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 87.1 n/a = Not applicable Notes: 1. Recruitment figures for 2008/09 are provisional and subject to change. College based recruitment for 2008/09 includes actual registrations and forecast trainees who are expected to enter ITT during the academic year. Employment based recruitment figures for 2008/09 were for the autumn term only. A further 1,900 trainees were expected to start on employment based routes during the year. 2. College based ITT recruitment includes Universities, other Higher Education Institutions, School Centred ITT (SCITT) and Open University. 3. Employment based ITT recruitment includes Teach First. The first year of the Teach First programme was 2003/04. 4. Recruitment numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. 5. Number of ITT places prior to 2008/09 include SCITT but exclude employment based ITT. Targets for 2008/09 onwards include employment based ITT. Source: TDA’s ITT Trainee Numbers Census and TDA’s Employment Based Database

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Table 1d: Bankrupts by age, Twickenham constituency Age Group Bankruptcy Under 65 and 25 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 Over Unknown Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2008 0 7 19 28 6 2 3 for Business, Innovation and Skills how many 1 Where the bankrupt has provided a valid postcode (increasing from 94.5 per bankruptcies there were in (a) England, (b) London, cent. of cases in 2004 to 96.9 per cent. in 2008) (c) Richmond-upon-Thames and (d) Twickenham Broadband constituency of individuals in each age group of each of the last five years. [294756] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Ian Lucas: The available information on the number steps his Department is taking to upgrade broadband of bankruptcies in England, London, Richmond-upon- facilities in the UK. [297255] Thames and Twickenham constituency, by age group, may be seen in tables la to 1d as follows. Mr. Timms: We have recently set up the Network Table 1a: Bankrupts by age, England Design and Procurement Company as we pledged to do Age group1 in the Digital Britain Report. The company will be Under 65 and responsible for procuring the upgrade and replacement 25 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 over Unknown works to deliver the Universal Service Commitment 2004 2,415 8,423 9,417 5,581 3,055 874 2,418 (USC) for 2 Mbps to virtually every community by 2005 3,187 10,780 12,383 7,698 4,312 1,370 3,311 2012. In due course, it will also be responsible for the 2006 3,646 14,208 16,949 10,662 6,116 2,084 3,828 administration of the Next Generation Fund outlined 2007 2,824 14,249 17,671 11,575 6,507 2,334 4,000 in the Digital Britain White Paper, with a view to 90 per 2008 2,659 14,595 18,716 12,822 6,649 2,388 4,059 cent. of UK households having access to next generation broadband services by 2017. Table 1b: Bankrupts by age, London On take up of broadband and Digital Inclusion, the Age group1 Government have also appointed Martha Lane Fox as Under 65 and 25 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 over Unknown our Digital Inclusion Champion. Her role will be to find ways of helping people without previous experience 2004 166 860 1,141 674 342 112 555 of computers to develop the skills needed to make use 2005 221 1,208 1,557 1,078 495 220 547 of the internet in order to take advantage of the benefits 2006 214 1,448 2,204 1,427 725 281 472 it offers. 2007 170 1,391 2,069 1,478 800 311 409 2008 128 1,292 2,033 1,562 761 297 424 Broadband: Finance Table 1c: Bankrupts by age, Richmond-upon-Thames Age group1 Richard Younger-Ross: To ask the Minister of State, Under 65 and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what 25 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 over Unknown estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of 2004 4 15 23 14 16 4 5 delivery of the universal service commitment of two 2005 1 21 24 27 20 4 4 megabits per second by 2012; and from which of his 2006 2 21 46 31 22 7 9 Department’s budgets the funding for the commitment 2007 4 32 52 17 29 6 5 will be drawn. [297656] 2008 0 14 32 38 14 3 6 Mr. Timms: The Government set out in the Digital Table 1d: Bankrupts by age, Twickenham constituency Britain report that it would make available £200 million Age Group of public funds to support delivery of the universal Under 65 and service commitment of two megabits per second by 25 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 Over Unknown 2012. This will be drawn from a combination of the 2004 3 9 13 7 10 3 4 underspend on the Digital Switchover Fund (from the 2005 0 12 11 15 10 1 3 TV licence fee) and the £750 million BIS Strategic 2006 2 13 27 21858Investment Fund announced in the budget to support 2007 2 25 38 8 18 1 0 advanced industrial projects of strategic importance. 963W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 964W

Richard Younger-Ross: To ask the Minister of State, of companies helped through UKTI trade services and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what a wide range of characteristics of those companies. estimate he has made of the cost of delivery of next (b) UKTI does not hold this information. generation broadband to at least 90 per cent. of homes and businesses by 2017; what proportion of that cost Consolidated Contractors Corporation will be funded from the public purse; and what arrangements he plans to make for such funding. [297657] David Davis: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Mr. Timms: The Broadband Stakeholder Group (a) meetings, (b) communications and (c) other published a report in September 2008 on the cost of contacts Ministers and officials in his Department have delivering next generation broadband nationwide. This had with the Consolidated Contractors Corporation put the cost of UK-wide fibre networks at between £5.1 (CCC Group) and its international offshoots in the last billion and 28.8 billion depending on the technology five years. [294377] used. Ian Lucas [holding answer 20 October 2009]: UK The Digital Britain Report indicated that around Trade and Investment (UKTI) officials based in both 60 per cent. of homes are likely to be served by next the British Consulate General in Jerusalem and UKTI’s generation broadband purely through market provision. headquarters in London have been in regular contact The Government have proposed a supplement of 50p with Consolidated Contractors Company (CCC) over per month on each fixed copper line in order to raise the past two years, owing to the company’s involvement £150 million-£175 million a year. This will provide a on both the UK and Palestinian Councils of the Palestine fund earmarked for supporting delivery of next generation Britain Business Council (PBBC). The Business Council, broadband to at least 90 per cent. of homes and businesses which was established with the assistance of UKTI, by 2017. The exact proportion of public and private seeks to promote and facilitate bilateral trade and investment investment in relation to those areas not served on a between the UK and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. purely commercial basis by the market will be determined The Business Council was announced on the visit made by a competitive process. We will bring forward for to Israel in July 2008 by my right hon. Friend the Prime Parliament’s approval legislation to deliver this fund in Minister; and launched at the London Business Forum Spring 2010. on Trade and Investment with Palestine on 15 December (in which my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and Business: UK Trade and Investment Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills participated). Executives from Consolidated Contractors Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Company were involved in both the visit programme in Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Palestine and the London event. many businesses with (a) fewer than 50, (b) between CCC is a major contractor in the Middle East and 51 and 100, (c) between 101 and 250 and (d) more works closely with a variety of British companies. It is than 250 employees received assistance from UK Trade possible that there have been meetings and contacts and Investment in each of the last four years. [294932] which UKTI’s records do not cover.

Ian Lucas [holding answer 22 October 2009]: This Departmental Energy information is publicly available in UKTI’s Performance and Impact Monitoring Survey, available at Dr. Whitehead: To ask the Minister of State, www.uktradeinvest.gov.uk/ukti/pims Department for Business, Innovation and Skills This covers activity delivered from the period beginning whether his Department has a strategy to encourage 1 July 2005 through to the end December 2008. The voltage optimisation on its estate. [295274] reports include validated and de-duplicated total number of companies helped through UKTI trade services and Ian Lucas: This Department is in the process of a wide range of characteristics of those companies. submitting an application for Salix funding in order to install voltage optimisation equipment in its main building Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, at 1 Victoria Street. On the basis of this installation Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how being successful, we will encourage other bodies sponsored many businesses received assistance from UK Trade by the Department to do likewise. and Investment in each of the last four years, broken down by (a) region and (b) local authority area. Departmental Marketing [295066]

Ian Lucas [holding answer 22 October 2009]: The Sammy Wilson: To ask the Minister of State, information is as follows: Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department and its predecessor has spent on (a) This information is publicly available in UKTI’s advertising and publicity in each of the last five years. Performance and Impact Monitoring Survey, available [294972] at www.uktradeinvest.gov.uk/ukti/pims Mr. McFadden: Spending on advertising procured This covers activity delivered from the period beginning through the Central Office of Information by the former 1 July 2005 through to the end December 2008. The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory reports include validated and de-duplicated total number Reform (BERR) in the last five years is as follows: 965W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 966W

£ Campaign Press Radio Poster Internet Media total

2008-09 Agency Workers Campaign 2008-09 (first part of the 341,212 518,139 — — 859,351 Vulnerable Workers campaign) Employing People 2008-09 37,140 — — — 37,140 National Minimum Wage 2008-09 30,260 34,429 114,133 — 178,821 Dispute Resolution 2008-09 5,977 — — — 5,977 Trawlermen Compensation Scheme 2008-09 3,317 — — — 3,317 Total 2008-09 — — — — 1,084,606

2007-08 Nuclear Energy Consultation 2007-08 146,380 — — — 146,380 Employing People 2007-08 71,446 — — — 71,446 National Minimum Wage 2007-08 4,447 392,297 157,411 — 554,155 Total 2007-08 — — — — 771,981

2006-07 Consumer Direct—Thomson Directories 2006-07 581,424 — — — 581,424 DTI Classified Recruitment 2006-07 11,457 — — — 11,457 ACAS Miscellaneous Advertising Activity 2006-07 82,641 146,308 — — 228,949 Total 2006-07 — — — — 821,830

2005-06 Consumer Direct 2005-06 366,936 823,011 87,903 170,000 1,447,850 DTI Classified—Recruitment Advertising 2005-06 31,099 — — — 31,099 SBS Business Link 2005-06 1,502,301 — — — 1,502,301 New National Minimum Wage 2005-06 328,603 — — 41,000 369,603 Directgov—DTI Employee Franchise 2005-06 117,690 — — 10,000 127,690 Total 2005-06 — — — — 3,478,543

2004-05 Consumer Direct 2004-05 170,600 326,738 209,150 — 706,488 SBS Business Link 2004-05 552,712 — — — 552,712 Import Licence Announcements 2004-05 74,300 — — — 74,300 DTI Classified Recruitment Advertising 2004-05 41,007 — — — 41,007 New Minimum Wage 2004-05 315,754 — — — 315,754 Renewable Energy 2004-05 15,542 — — — 15,542 Queen’s Award for Enterprise Promotion 2004-05 30,494 — — — 30,494 Firework Safety 04-05 - (media only) 17,061 152,527 18,892 — 188,480 DTI - Dispute Resolution (media only) 81,768 — — — 81,768 SBS Press Media Buying Costs 2004-05 — — — — 3,255 Total 2004-05 — — — — 2,009,800

Spending on advertising procured through the Central Details of any other expenditure on advertising are Office of Information by the former Department for not held centrally and could be provided only at Innovation, Universities and Skills (DIUS) is as follows: disproportionate cost.

£ Spending on external public relations procured by Media the Strategic Marketing team via the Central Office of Press Television Radio total Information (COI) or placed directly with PR companies for BERR and DTI in the last five years is as follows: 2008-09

Higher Education Student 58,560 1,224,996 432,249 1,715,805 Amount spent (£) Finance campaign 2008-09 Science Innovation Press 149,577 — — 149,577 2008-09 BERR Campaign 2008-09 Employing People 165,596.25 Total 2008/09 — — — 1,865,382 Consumer Protection Regulations 112,142.03 Flexible working 24,733.63 2007-08 Queen’s Awards 19,875 Higher Education Student 229,751 1,198,017 597,984 2,025,702 Finance 2007-08 Renewable Energy 2,506.54 Total 2007/08 — — — 2,025,702 Total 2008-09 324,853.45 967W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 968W

Departmental Procurement Amount spent (£)

2007-08 DTI and BERR Mr. Prisk: To ask the Minister of State, Department Enterprising Britain 172,630.27 for Business, Innovation and Skills what the Renewable Energy 109,326.38 procurement budget of his Department and its Employing People 30,030 predecessor was in each of the last five years; and what Queen’s Awards 17,254.61 proportion of that budget was spent on contracts Fireworks safety 15,000 placed with small and medium-sized enterprises in each Consumer Protection Regulations 73,000 such year. [290001] Total 2007-08 417,241.26 Mr. McFadden: The Department does not separately 2006-07 DTI identify a procurement budget within its total allocation Business Link PR 179,113 of resources and neither did its predecessor departments, Gap Analysis 9,071 BERR and DIUS. DTI Renewable Energy PR 131,582 Information on the percentage of procurement Small Business Service (SBS) 163,642 Enterprising Britain PR spend with SMEs is not generally recorded but in Total 2006-07 483,408 2007-08, an exercise was undertaken that showed that SMEs accounted for the following percentages of total procurement spend: 2005-06 DTI BERR—13 per cent. Consumer Direct PR 32,694 Consumer Direct PR 239,050 DIUS—32 per cent. Renewable Energy PR 137,080 The definition of an SME is taken from the Glover Small Business Service (SBS) 76,240 Report, which refers to EU (Recommendation 2003/361/ Enterprising Britain PR EC) and stipulates that an SME is an organisation with SBS Interim PR activity 105,786 a headcount of less than 250 and a maximum turnover Total 2005-06 590,850 of £40 million. Further information is not held centrally and could 2004-05 DTI be provided only at disproportionate cost. DTI Best Business Practice PR 346,205 DTI Best Practice Media Evaluation 5,910 Mr. Prisk: To ask the Minister of State, Department DTI Dispute Resolution PR 74,962 for Business, Innovation and Skills what percentage of DTI Best Practice PR 158,898 procurement contracts (a) his Department and its DTI Renewables 572,633 predecessors and (b) its agencies awarded to small SBS Sunday Times Enterprise 146,497 businesses in (i) 2006-07, (ii) 2007-08, (iii) 2008-09 and Network Sponsorship (iv) 2009-10; and if he will make a statement. [293247] Total 2004-05 1,305,105

Spending on public relations, including contracts placed Mr. McFadden: The Insolvency Service awarded the by DIUS using a framework agreement and by COI on following percentage of procurement contracts to small behalf of the Department, is as follows: businesses in each of the following financial years: 2007-08 total: £261,072 2008-09 total: £193,300. Contracts Percentage awarded To SMEs

Departmental Official Cars (1) 2006-07 50 10 5 (2) 2007-08 80 10 8 Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister of State, Department (3) 2008-09 59 17 10 for Business, Innovation and Skills whether (4) 2009-10 (to 67 6 4 Government cars have been provided for the use of date) special advisers in his Department in the last 12 months. [297743] Letter from Sarah Glasspool, dated 14 October 2009: Mr. McFadden: Special advisers in the Department The National Measurement Office does not currently record for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform are not company information as to whether they are SME’s therefore it provided with Government cars. would take a disproportionate amount of time to obtain the information required for this PQ. Departmental Postal Services Letter from Gareth Jones: Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Minister of State, I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary Department for Business, Innovation and Skills which Question tabled on 12 October 2009, UIN 293247, to the Minister companies are under contract to his Department to of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. provide mail services; and when each such contract The percentage of procurement contracts awarded to small expires. [296178] businesses by Companies House was as follows:-

Mr. McFadden [holding answer 27 October 2009]: Percentage

This Department uses Royal Mail’s first and second 2006-07 30.4 class services for its external standard mailings, although 2007-08 31.9 these services are not provided under contract. 969W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 970W

Borders and Immigration and a group of university Percentage vice chancellors to discuss migration issues and higher 2008-09 33.4 education, including student visas. As a result of that 2009-10 33.2 meeting UKBA stepped up their preparations for dealing with the summer surge of applications from international Letter from Ian Fletcher, dated 15 October 2009: students. I am responding on behalf of the Intellectual Property Office to your Parliamentary Question tabled 12 October 2009, to the Export Credit Guarantees: Nigeria Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Minister of State, The percentage of procurement contracts awarded to small Department for Business, Innovation and Skills businesses by the Intellectual Property Office is (i) 2006-07: 69%, whether the Export Credits Guarantee Department has (ii) 2007-08: 67%, (iii) 2008-09: 60%, and (iv) 2009-10: 46% requested information from (a) MW Kellogg Limited Letter from Stephen Speed: and (b) Halliburton regarding Mr Jeffrey Tesler in The Minister of State, for the Department of Business, connection with the LNG Plant at Bonny Island in Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) has asked me to reply Nigeria. [293951] to you directly in respect of your question, what percentage of procurement contracts (a) his Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies awarded to small businesses in (i) 2006-07, (ii) Ian Lucas: ECGD has not made any such requests as 2007-08, (iii) 2008-09 and (iv) 2009-10; and if he will make a it is not an investigatory body and, as the SFO is statement. already conducting its own investigation into the Bonny The Insolvency Service awarded the following percentage of Island project, it would not have been appropriate for procurement contracts to small businesses in each of the following ECGD to pursue inquiries of its own. financial years: High Pay Commission Contracts Percentage awarded To SMEs

(1) 2006-07 50 10 5 Jeff Ennis: To ask the Minister of State, Department (2) 2007-08 80 10 8 for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will establish a (3) 2008-09 59 17 10 high pay commission. [291733] (4) 2009-10 (to 67 6 4 date) Mr. McFadden: There are no plans to do so.

Digital Broadcasting: Birmingham Higher Education

Mr. Godsiff: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how estimate he has made of the number of (a) households many higher education institutions have applied to be and (b) businesses in Birmingham Sparkbrook and able to use the title of university since 2004. [297090] Small Heath constituency which will be liable for payment of the levy proposed in the . [291563] Mr. Lammy: Since 1 January 2004, there have been 19 Mr. Timms: This Department has made no specific applications from higher education institutions for university estimate of the number of (a) households and (b) title. Of these 19 applications, 18 were successful. businesses in Birmingham Sparkbrook and Small Heath liable for payment of the levy proposed in the Digital Higher Education: Admissions Britain White Paper. Ofcom estimates that there are 1,145,411 fixed lines Anne Main: To ask the Minister of State, in the West Midlands area. Ofcom do not have estimates Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how for Birmingham Sparkbrook and Small Heath. We many people aged (a) 21 years and under and (b) over recognise that those on the lowest incomes might have 21 years old in each socio-economic group resident in difficulty paying the fixed line levy and that is why we (i) St. Albans constituency, (ii) Hertfordshire, (iii) the have confirmed that those on social telephony schemes East of England and (iv) England attended university will be exempt. The social telephony schemes are available in each of the last five years. [297639] to those on income support, income-based job seeker’s allowance, employment support allowance (income rated) Mr. Lammy: The latest available information from or guaranteed pensions credit. the Higher Education Statistics Agency is shown in tables 1 to 4. The figures are shown for full-time Entry Clearances: Students undergraduate entrants as socio-economic class (SEC) information is not available for part-time higher Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, education students. Figures are provided for entrants Department for Business, Innovation and Skills when aged under 21, and 21 and over as the socio-economic he last met the Minister of State for Borders and class data has a different basis for these two distinct age Immigration to discuss student visas. [297088] groups. Socio-economic class is based on occupation information: those aged under 21 provide their parent’s Mr. Lammy: On 20 July I hosted a roundtable meeting occupation, and those aged 21 and over provide their with my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for own occupation. 971W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 972W

Table 1: Full-time undergraduate entrants from St. Albans parliamentary constituency1, UK higher education institutions2, academic years 2003/04 to 2007/08 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 Socio-economic 21 and 21 and 21 and 21 and 21 and classification Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over

Higher 150 10 180 10 150 10 160 5 160 10 managerial and professional occupations Lower 140 5 165 15 165 15 155 15 165 10 managerial and professional occupations Intermediate 60 15 65 10 60 10 65 5 55 5 occupations Small employers 35 5 25 5 15 0 30 5 25 5 and own account workers Lower 10 0 20 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 supervisory and technical occupations Semi-routine 2510405301040103010 occupations Routine 10 5 15 5 10 0 10 0 10 5 occupations Missing3 65 85 80 85 150 85 95 55 110 105 1 The table does not include entrants whose constituency cannot be established due to missing or invalid home postcodes. 2 Excludes the Open university due to inconsistencies in their coding of entrants across the time series. 3 Includes those classified as “Never worked and long-term unemployed”, “Not classified” and “Missing”. Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

Table 2: Full-time undergraduate entrants from Hertfordshire local authority1, UK higher education institutions2, academic years 2003/04 to 2007/08 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 Socio-economic 21 and 21 and 21 and 21 and 21 and classification Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over

Higher managerial 1,710 80 1,550 70 1,500 75 1,430 50 1,575 65 and professional occupations Lower managerial 1,860 110 1,535 150 1,495 135 1,485 120 1,585 115 and professional occupations Intermediate 835 130 675 110 700 110 705 75 675 85 occupations Small employers and 405 20 300 30 300 20 315 25 335 35 own account workers Lower supervisory 265 10 215 15 190 10 195 20 190 20 and technical occupations Semi-routine 560 105 385 85 425 120 405 80 420 115 occupations Routine occupations 225 40 140 30 155 40 170 35 155 35 Missing3 1,105 920 915 915 1,375 935 1,030 815 1,140 955 1 The table does not include entrants whose local authority cannot be established due to missing or invalid home postcodes. 2 Excludes the Open university due to inconsistencies in their coding of entrants across the time series. 3 Includes those classified as “Never worked and long-term unemployed”, “Not classified” and “Missing”. Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

Table 3: Full-time undergraduate entrants from East of England Government office region1, UK higher education institutions2, academic years 2003/04 to 2007/08 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 Socioeconomic classification Under 21 21 & over Under 21 21 & over Under 21 21 & over Under 21 21 & over Under 21 21 & over

Higher 4,230 225 5,375 265 5,470 275 5,230 245 6,040 165 managerial and professional occupations Lower 5,970 715 6,110 535 6,305 635 6,050 575 6,905 530 managerial and professional occupations Intermediate 2,195 575 2,510 480 2,735 500 2,515 400 2,850 400 occupations 973W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 974W

Table 3: Full-time undergraduate entrants from East of England Government office region1, UK higher education institutions2, academic years 2003/04 to 2007/08 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 Socioeconomic classification Under 21 21 & over Under 21 21 & over Under 21 21 & over Under 21 21 & over Under 21 21 & over

Small employers 1,370 135 1,360 105 1,460 120 1,425 105 1,615 95 and own account workers Lower 1,115 90 885 85 925 75 930 70 1,090 60 supervisory and technical occupations Semi-routine 2,280 745 1,700 440 1,905 595 1,845 500 2,165 575 occupations Routine 1,375 280 745 130 765 180 875 185 985 190 occupations Missing3 5,285 5,545 4,495 4,780 5,315 4,580 4,805 4,245 6,010 4,090 1 The table does not include entrants whose Government office region cannot be established due to missing or invalid home postcodes. 2 Excludes the Open university due to inconsistencies in their coding of entrants across the time series. 3 Includes those classified as “Never worked and long-term unemployed”, “Not classified” and “Missing”. Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

Table 4: Full-time undergraduate entrants from England, UK higher education institutions1, academic years 2003/04 to 2007/08 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 Socio-economic 21 and 21 and 21 and 21 and 21 and classification Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over Under 21 over

Higher 44,480 2,640 44,595 2,535 44,810 2,880 43,680 2,575 47,520 2,705 managerial and professional occupations Lower 55,740 7,195 57,350 7,190 58,620 8,170 56,160 6,960 58,810 7,480 managerial and professional occupations Intermediate 23,775 6,335 24,360 6,000 25,175 6,635 23,935 5,335 25,155 6,235 occupations Small employers 12,860 1,370 13,025 1,290 13,515 1,605 13,795 1,355 14,425 1,535 and own account workers Lower 9,110 850 8,750 825 9,355 1,025 9,005 865 9,275 1,055 supervisory and technical occupations Semi-routine 18,965 6,720 19,050 6,465 21,040 7,615 20,715 6,955 22,390 8,520 occupations Routine 8,775 2,190 8,630 2,055 9,365 2,480 9,665 2,495 10,080 2,935 occupations Missing2 46,340 55,520 48,345 56,360 59,260 54,265 53,470 52,095 54,520 54,100 1 Excludes the Open university due to inconsistencies in their coding of entrants across the time series. 2 Includes those classified as “Never worked and long-term unemployed”, “Not classified” and “Missing”. Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

Higher Education: Birmingham codes recorded for the student in the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) student record. Some of these students, although resident in Birmingham Northfield, Richard Burden: To ask the Minister of State, may not have attended schools in Birmingham Northfield Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how constituency. many school students from Birmingham, Northfield constituency entered higher education in each of the Figures for the 2008/09 academic year will be available last 10 years. [296273] from HESA in January 2010. 18 and 19-year-old undergraduate entrants1 from Birmingham Northfield Mr. Lammy: It is not possible to identify whether constituency2 UK higher education institutions3—academic years 1998/99 to 2007/08 entrants to higher education from Birmingham Northfield Academic constituency attended schools or further education colleges. year 18-year-old entrants 19-year-old entrants The numbers of 18 and 19-year-old undergraduate entrants to UK Higher Education Institutions from Birmingham 1998/99 95 40 Northfield constituency are given as an alternative in 1999/ 130 70 2000 the table. 2000/01 140 60 Undergraduate entrants from Birmingham Northfield 2001/02 155 50 constituency are defined by full and valid home post 2002/03 155 70 975W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 976W

18 and 19-year-old undergraduate entrants1 from Birmingham Northfield Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries constituency2 UK higher education institutions3—academic years 1998/99 to 2007/08 Academic Jessica Morden: To ask the Minister of State, year 18-year-old entrants 19-year-old entrants Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many cars had been purchased under the car scrappage 2003/04 165 70 scheme in (a) Newport East constituency and (b) 2004/05 145 45 Wales on the latest date for which figures are available. 2005/06 180 85 [295931] 2006/07 160 75 2007/08 155 80 Ian Lucas: Using data based on the locations of 1 Covers entrants to full-time and part-time courses. dealerships and data for scrappage transactions which 2 The figures in the answer do not include entrants where the constituency of the student cannot be established due to missing or invalid information. have been completed and vehicles delivered, there have 3 Excludes the Open university due to inconsistencies in their coding of entrants been 357 completed scrappage transactions in Newport, across the time series. East and 7,934 in Wales. Note: Figures are based on a snapshot as at 1 December and have been rounded to the nearest five. John Battle: To ask the Minister of State, Source: Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) many cars had been purchased under the car scrappage Israel: Natural Gas scheme in (a) Leeds and (b) West Yorkshire at the latest date for which figures are available. [295353] Mr. Mullin: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. McFadden: Using data based on the locations of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what dealerships and data for scrappage transactions which recent representations he has received regarding a have been completed and vehicles delivered, there have proposed agreement between the Israel Electric been 1,109 completed scrappage transactions in Leeds Corporation and British Gas to purchase gas from the and 4,135 in West Yorkshire. Gaza Marine Field; and if he will make a statement. [293093] Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many cars have Ian Lucas: Ministers from the Department for Business, been purchased under the scrappage scheme in (a) Innovation and Skills (BIS) have received no recent London, (b) Richmond-upon-Thames and (c) representations on a proposed agreement between the Twickenham constituency. [295430] Israel Electric Corporation and BG Group to purchase gas from the Gaza Marine field. Ian Lucas: Using data based on the locations of dealerships and data for scrappage transactions which Members: Correspondence have been completed and vehicles delivered, there have been 13,729 completed scrappage transactions in London Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, including 418 in the London borough of Richmond Department for Business, Innovation and Skills when which were all in the Twickenham constituency. he plans to reply to Question 291983, on broadband and the BT network, tabled on 9 October 2009. Musical Instruments: Manufacturing Industries [297539] Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Timms: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what gave on Thursday 29 October, Official Report, column his Department’s policy is on supporting UK reference 541W. manufacturers of musical instruments. [296130] Ian Lucas: There is no specific support for UK Motor Vehicles: Government Assistance manufacturers of musical instruments however the Government have an extensive programme of support Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister of State, Department for manufacturing through Business Link particularly for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) cars through the Manufacturing Advisory Service, and the and (b) vans purchased under the vehicle scrappage Real Help for Business package that was launched in scheme were (i) manufactured in the UK and (ii) January 2009. imported. [296234] Both can be accessed at: Ian Lucas: Full data will not be available until the end http://www.businesslink.gov.uk of the scheme, as details of new vehicles purchased, and National Endowment for Science, Technology and the whether they are vans or cars, are not available until Arts: Finance transactions are completed. Further analysis will also be required at the end of the scheme as certain models Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister of State, are both imported and manufactured in the UK. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills In 2008, 86 per cent. of vehicles sold in the UK were pursuant to the Answer of 20 October 2009, Official imported. However, the global automotive supply chain Report, column 1433W, on public bodies: finance, what is highly integrated and many imported cars will have a the return profit from the portfolio of investments in significant UK content in terms of components, for companies and loans held by the National Endowment example, we understand 90 per cent. of Ford vehicles for Science, Technology and the Arts, known as sold under the scrappage scheme have engines made in NESTA Investments, was in each year since 1998. the UK. [296232] 977W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 978W

Mr. Lammy: NESTA’s early stage investment activity Ian Lucas: The Inspectors kept the Department informed was launched as a fully commercial operation in March of the areas of concern and the potential misconduct 2007 under the name of NESTA Investments. Prior to that they uncovered during the course of the Inspection. this, investment activity was not fully commercial in They did not consider that there were specific issues remit and consisted of a mixture of grants, interest free that needed to be referred to the Serious Fraud Office loans and other instruments. during the Inspection. Since the formation of NESTA Investments, the profits However, when the final report was delivered it was on disposal of investments to third parties held in the clear that, when read in its entirety, it raised serious NESTA Investment portfolio were £278,000 in 2007-08 questions as to criminality. In particular, the Inspectors and £133,000 in 2008-09. found that members of the Phoenix Consortium obtained I have been advised by NESTA that NESTA Investments unreasonably large financial rewards and that they is expected to realise the value of its portfolio over the undertook a number of transactions to allocate assets next five to seven years. This time frame is the average to companies in the Group other than MG Rover period that seed funds operating in this field tend to Group and in which MGRG had no interest. The hold their investments, before realisation. Secretary of State considered that it was important to establish whether a criminal investigation into possible Overseas Trade: Afghanistan criminal conduct was appropriate before publication of the report. Given the Serious Fraud Office’s responsibility for dealing with allegations of this type it was appropriate Dr. Blackman-Woods: To ask the Minister of State, to refer the matter to them for their consideration. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to encourage trade and investment Royal Mail: Communications Workers Union between the UK and Afghanistan. [297327] Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, Ian Lucas: UK Trade and Investment has no presence Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how in Afghanistan and does not proactively support UK much the Communication Workers Union has received companies in this market. However, lobbying on behalf from Royal Mail in each of the last 10 financial years. of British companies may be carried out on a case-by-case [297670] basis by the British embassy in Kabul. Mr. McFadden: Any arrangements between the CWU and Royal Mail (for example, on facility time for CWU Parental Leave: Birmingham representatives) are a matter for Royal Mail management. I have therefore asked the chief executive of Royal Mr. Godsiff: To ask the Minister of State, Mail, Adam Crozier, to provide a direct reply to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what hon. Member. estimate he has made of the number of people in A copy of the response will be placed in the Libraries Birmingham Sparkbrook and Small Heath of the House. constituency who took (a) paternity and (b) maternity leave in the most recent period for which figures are Royal Mail: Industrial Disputes available. [291564] Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Mr. McFadden: The most recent estimates of take-up estimate has been made of the revenue Royal Mail lost of maternity leave are based on Maternity Rights and as a result of industrial action (a) in 2007 and (b) Mother’s Employment Decisions (published 2007). The between January and October 2009. [297498] survey is based on a random sample of mothers who had a baby between February and May 2006. Mr. McFadden: Estimates of revenue loss due to Of mothers in paid work, all took at least some of industrial action is a matter for Royal Mail. I have their entitlement to maternity leave. therefore asked the Chief Executive of Royal Mail, Up-to-date estimates of fathers taking paternity leave Adam Crozier, to provide a direct reply to the hon. are from the Maternity and Paternity Rights and Benefits Member. in Britain: Survey of Parents, conducted in 2005. 93 per A copy of the response will be placed in the Libraries cent of fathers took some time off around the time of of the House. the birth. Of the 93 per cent. who took some time off, 79 per cent. took paternity leave (The survey is based on Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, a random sample of mothers who had a baby in December Department for Business, Innovation and Skills 2003 and their partners). pursuant to the answer of 21 July 2009, Official Report, column 1527W, on Royal Mail: industrial disputes, how The Department does not collect data on take-up of many working days the Royal Mail lost as a result of maternity and paternity leave at constituency level. industrial action on (a) 22 to 23 October 2009 and (b) 29 to 31 October 2009. [297499] Rover Group: Serious Fraud Office Mr. McFadden: Estimating the number of days lost Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, due to the recent industrial action is an operational Department for Business, Innovation and Skills when matter for Royal Mail. I have therefore asked the chief the team investigating the collapse of MG Rover first executive of Royal Mail, Adam Crozier, to provide a notified the Government that there were sufficient direct reply to the hon. Member. grounds for referral to the Serious Fraud Office. A copy of the response will be placed in the Libraries [295118] of the House. 979W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 980W

Students: Disabled Mr. Lammy: As part of widening participation, the Government give generous financial support to disabled Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, students in higher education. Disabled Students’Allowances Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how (DSAs) are available to help with the extra costs students many students in each region have received disabled may incur on their course as a direct result of a disability, students’ allowance in each year since its introduction. mental health condition or specific learning difficulty. [296239] DSAs are paid in addition to the standard student Mr. Lammy: As part of widening participation, the support package; they are not means tested and do not Government gives generous financial support to disabled have to be repaid. students in higher education. Disabled students’ allowances Students: Finance (DSAs) are available to help with the extra costs students may incur on their course as a direct result of a disability, Mr. Spring: To ask the Minister of State, mental health condition or specific learning difficulty. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how DSAs are paid in addition to the standard student many and what proportion of students from Suffolk support package; they are not means tested and do not were receiving non-repayable maintenance grants from have to be repaid. Suffolk Local Education Authority in each of the last In 2009/10 eligible undergraduate students may receive five years; and what average grant was received. the following: [296063] Mr. Lammy: The information is as follows: Maximum payable to Maximum payable to eligible full-time eligible part-time Students awarded grants in Suffolk1 Allowance undergraduates (£) undergraduates (£) Students awarded grants as a Specialist equipment 5,161 5,161 percentage of all allowance (for the Number of those awarded duration of the course) Academic students awarded Average Amount some form of Non-medical helper 20,520 15,390 year grants awarded (£) support allowance General allowance 1,724 1,293 2004/05 1,170 1,140 13 Travel allowance Unlimited Unlimited 2005/06 2,040 1,060 22 2006/07 3,520 1,640 36 For postgraduate students (full or part-time) there is 2007/08 4,430 1,840 43 one allowance to meet all costs, up to £10,260 in 2009/10. 2008/09 5,460 2,170 54 Information on DSA by region is set out in the (provisional)2 following table 1 Figures cover the higher education grant, the maintenance grant and grants and allowances for children and dependents. Recipients of disabled student allowances by academic year and region1 2 Provisional 2008/09 data at mid-November 2008. Figures may change as later Thousand applications are processed. Source: Region of recipients Student Loans Company latest home postcode2 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/083 Grant figures in the tables cover the higher education East Midlands 2.1 2.4 2.7 2.9 grant, introduced in 2004, the maintenance grant, phased East of England 2.7 2.9 3.3 3.5 in from 2006, and grants and allowances for children London 5.6 5.8 6.1 6.2 and dependents. Different amounts are available for North East 0.9 1.0 1.0 1.1 each type of grant. Figures contain students in each North West 3.4 3.9 4.3 4.7 year of their courses. The amount a student receives South East 5.5 6.2 6.4 6.9 depends on household income, year of entry to higher South West 3.9 4.3 4.5 4.8 education and personal circumstances. West Midlands 2.6 2.8 3.2 3.5 Students: Loans Yorkshire and The 2.2 2.5 2.7 2.9 Humber Scotland 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.2 Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Wales 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.1 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) Unknown4 3.1 3.4 3.6 3.8 how many and what proportion of applications for Total England 32.3 35.6 38.2 40.7 support from the Student Loans Company for 2009-10 domiciled at time of have been processed; [296236] application (2) how many applications for maintenance support 1 DSA claims can be made retrospectively against earlier academic years. Table had been made to the Student Loans Company before shows data at 31 March 2009. 2 The table covers students who were domiciled in England at the time of their the start of the 2009-10 academic year; and how many first application for student support. The region shown relates to the postcode such applicants have been granted (a) no more than of the latest home address held by SLC, which may be the recipients address and (b) more than the minimum level; [296237] after leaving university. Some recipients from England have subsequently moved to Scotland or Wales. (3) how many applications (a) to the Student Loans 3 Provisional. Company for financial support and (b) to higher 4 Unknown covers those with missing or invalid postcode information, and English domiciled recipients who subsequently moved abroad. Consistent data education institutions to follow courses there were for are not available before academic year 2004/05. the academic year (i) 2008-09 and (ii) 2009-10; and if Source: he will make a statement. [296238] Student Loans Company (SLC) Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Lammy: The Student Loans Company has released Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how figures to show the levels of processing and payment of much has been spent on disabled students’ allowance in Student Support in England for the 2009/10 academic each year since its introduction. [296240] year. 981W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 982W

The releases will include the following information: Ian Lucas: UKTI does not hold these figures. UKTI Total applications received acts as the trade arm for the regional development Applications approved agencies (RDAs), providing trade services for companies. Applications currently being processed Where companies have been helped by both UKTI and Ineligible/withdrawn applications the RDAs, it will be on separate forms of business Applications started online but not completed support. Further information required from student/sponsors Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Students receiving first maintenance payment. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what The first release of this information was on Tuesday (a) accommodation and (b) staff costs his 27 October 2009, and this covered the processing and Department incurred in relation to UK Trade and payment up to and including 18 October 2009. This will Investment employees based overseas in 2008. [294872] be followed by a further two updates at weekly intervals. The information is being made available on the Student Ian Lucas: Overseas accommodation and staffing Loans Company website. costs are borne by our parent Departments, the Foreign According to information from UCAS, in 2008/09, and Commonwealth Office (FCO) and the Department the number of English-domiciled accepted applicants for Business, Innovation and Skills. As part of the to full-time undergraduate courses in England was 330,400. end-of year internal cost attribution process, the FCO The equivalent final figure for 2009/10 is not yet available, does produce an estimated cost for overseas expenditure but by 14 October 2009 the total had reached 344,508. in these categories. UK Trade and Investment In 2008-09 the following costs were attributed to UKTI and are recorded in the UK Trade and Investment Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Departmental Report and Resource Accounts 2008-09, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how published 20 July and as presented to the House of many complaints received by UK Trade and Commons. ISBN: 9 78 010296 1706. Investment were responded to (a) within one to 10 (a) £24.598 million days, (b) within 11 to 15 days, (c) within 16 to 20 days (b) £51.4 million. and (d) more than 21 days after receipt in each of the last four years. [294869] Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Ian Lucas: UKTI does not hold this information and (a) accommodation and (b) staff costs his to gather these details would be at disproportionate Department incurred in relation to employees based at cost. UK Trade and Investment headquarters in 2008. There are over 160 UKTI locations around the world [294873] and a complaint can be initiated at any of these points of access. Almost without exception, complaints are Ian Lucas: The costs of UKTI accommodation costs dealt with at a local level by our frontline staff without in the UK (London and Glasgow) are primarily funded the need to escalate the matter with a referral to the through BIS administration and those costs are publicly corporate centre. available in the UK Trade and Investment departmental report and resource accounts 2008-09, at pages 116 and Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, 115 respectively, published 20 July and as presented to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how the House of Commons. ISBN: 9 78 010296 1706. This many UK Trade and Investment employees have taken includes the cost for delivery teams that are co-located time off work as a result of diagnosed stress in each of with HQ functions in London and Glasgow. the last five years. [294870] Ian Lucas: The number of staff in UKTI (London Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, and Glasgow) who took certified sick leave due to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how “anxiety/stress/depression/other psychiatric illness” in many UK Trade and Investment staff were based in each of the last five years are as follows: each region in each of the last four years. [294874]

Number of staff Ian Lucas: People working for UKTI are either employees of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, 2004 9 the Foreign and Commonwealth Office or from the 2005 8 private sector. In the English regions there are 108 civil 2006 10 servants, with the majority of staff being employed by 2007 6 private sector organisations. The following table sets 2008 7 out the number of people working on behalf of UKTI It is not possible to identify staff who suffered from in each region: stress alone. 2006 2007 2008 2009 (June) (November) (October) (October) Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how East of 44 46 42 39 many companies who received assistance from UK England Trade and Investment in 2008-09 also received East 37 42 43 41 Midlands assistance from a regional development agency in the London 38 39 44 45 same period. [294871] 983W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 984W

project classifications have only been used for the last 2006 2007 2008 2009 (June) (November) (October) (October) two years. Previously, UKTI has benchmarked against knowledge driven targets. North East 31 39 39 34 Targets for 2007-08 to 2009-10 and outturn for 2007-08 North West 41 49 43 40 and 2008-09 are as follows: South East 70 64 61 61 South West 36 44 43 43 Target 2007-08 West 53 58 58 52 to 2009-10 Outturn 2007-08 Outturn 2008-09 Midlands Yorkshire 37 42 42 44 (a) High Value 125 182 262 and (b) Good 285 255 244 Humber Quality Total 387 423 415 399 (c) RDA 115 112 94 Priority Totals 525 549 600 Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills which companies in each region received assistance from UK Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Trade and Investment in each of the last four years. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how [294875] much was spent on (a) car hire, (b) train travel, (c) air travel, (d) hotels and (e) restaurants by UK Trade and Ian Lucas: UKTI collects information on services Investment in each of the last four years. [295052] delivered through the UKTI Performance and Impact Monitoring survey, available at: Ian Lucas: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) does www.uktradeinvest.gov.uk/ukti/pims not directly employ staff but draws on resource from its two parent departments the Department for Business However, this information is provided in confidence Innovation and Skills (BIS) and the Foreign and and the disclosure at the level of individual companies Commonwealth Office (FCO). UKTI has offices in would constitute a breach of confidence actionable by 98 different countries, the nine English regions, London that or any other person. and Glasgow. UKTI holds financial information on travel costs at Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, the aggregate level centrally whilst detailed information Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what is held locally. To provide the information requested expenditure has been incurred on marketing UK Trade would require obtaining detailed information from each and Investment in each of the last four years. [294876] location and therefore can only be obtained at disproportionate cost. Ian Lucas: Marketing of UK Trade and Investment is an integrated part of the promotion of exporting/trade Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, development or marketing of the UK, not a separate Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how function. UKTI Marketing Group programme spend much was spent on (a) standard, (b) business and (c) over the last four years: first class air travel by UK Trade and Investment in each of the last four years. [295053] £ Million

2008-09 10 Ian Lucas: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) does 2007-08 9.1 not directly employ staff but draws on resource from its 2006-07 9.8 two parent Departments the Department for Business 2005-06 9.7 Innovation and Skills (BIS) and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO). UKTI has offices in 98 This represents programme expenditure by UKTI’s different countries, the nine English regions, London Marketing Group only and does not represent UKTI’s and Glasgow. total expenditure on marketing the UK and UKTI’s UKTI holds financial information on travel costs at services. Additional expenditure is spread across UKTI’s the aggregate level centrally whilst detailed information groups to varying degrees over the four year period. is held locally. To provide the information requested Note: would require obtaining detailed information from each These figures include spend on activity in the UK and overseas, location and therefore can be obtained only at the latter predominantly, though not exclusively, being activity to disproportionate cost. help achieve foreign direct investment targets. It also includes spend on developing the sector marketing strategies. Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, much financial assistance UK Trade and Investment Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what provided to businesses in the defence sector (a) in total assessment has been made of UK Trade and and (b) as a proportion of the financial assistance Investment’s performance against its targets for provided to all businesses in each of the last four years. attracting (a) high value, (b) good quality and (c) [295054] priority projects in each of the last four years. [295049] Ian Lucas: On the 1 April 2008 responsibility for Ian Lucas: Foreign Direct Investment targets according defence trade promotion transferred from the Ministry to (a) high value, (b) good quality and (c) priority of Defence to UK Trade and Investment (UKTI). The 985W Written Answers3 NOVEMBER 2009 Written Answers 986W cost of defence trade promotion is jointly borne by UK Trade and Investment: Complaints UKTI, the Department for Business Innovation and Skills and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, As set out in UKTI’s Departmental Report and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Resource Accounts 2008-09, total expenditure was many complaints were received by UK Trade and £323.2 million. Of this £301.6 million (93.3 per cent.) Investment in each of the last four years. [295067] was spent in supporting businesses not from the defence and security sector, leaving £21.6 million (6.7 per cent) Ian Lucas [holding answer 22 October 2009]: This on businesses in the defence and security sector. Figures information is publicly available at Annex D of the UK prior to 2008-09 are not available on a comparable basis Trade and Investment Departmental Report and Resource and can be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Accounts 2008-09, published 20 July and as presented to the House of Commons. ISBN: 9 78 010296 1706 Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, and, for previous years, in the corresponding publications Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how of the Department of Business Innovation and Skills much UK Trade and Investment spent on consultants (previously the Department of Business Enterprise and and other external advice in each of the last four years. Regulatory Reform) and the Foreign and Commonwealth [295055] Office.

Ian Lucas: This information is only held for the Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, previous three years. It is publicly available in the UK Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Trade and Investment Departmental Report and Resource targets for responding to complaints were adopted by Accounts 2008-09, published 20 July 2009 and as presented UK Trade and Investment in each of the last four to the House of Commons. ISBN: 9 78 010296 1706 years. [295068] and in the corresponding publication of the previous year that gives figures for both 2006-07 and 2007-08. Ian Lucas [holding answer 22 October 2009]: This information is publicly available at Annex D of the UK Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Trade and Investment Departmental Report and Resource Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Accounts 2008-09, published 20 July and as presented many employees of UK Trade and Investment attended to the House of Commons. ISBN: 9 78 010296 1706 the Beijing Olympics in July 2008 in an official and, for previous years, in the corresponding publications capacity. [295079] of the Department of Business Innovation and Skills (previously the Department of Business Enterprise and Ian Lucas: No UKTI employees attended the Beijing Regulatory Reform) and the Foreign and Commonwealth Games in July 2008 in an official capacity. Office. 7MC Ministerial Corrections3 NOVEMBER 2009 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

Ministerial Corrections £000 Name of body 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Tuesday 3 November 2009 Design Council 6,035 6,069 6,435 I am sorry for the error.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Charities Ethiopia Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills to which The Secretary of State for International Development (a) charities and (b) voluntary organisations his (Mr. Douglas Alexander): Twenty-five years after the Department has provided funding since it was famine in Ethiopia that killed over a million people, established; and how much funding was provided to there is once again a growing drought and conflict-related each. [247376] humanitarian crisis in the horn of Africa. [Official Report, 27 January 2009, Vol. 487, c. 449-50W.] Ethiopia accounts for the highest proportion of the humanitarian caseload in the region, with over 6 million Letter of correction from Mr. McFadden: people needing emergency assistance until the end of I wanted to advise you that officials in the Department 2009. A third of these people live in the Somali region have identified an error made by the then Parliamentary of Ethiopia. UNICEF estimates that there are currently Under-Secretary of State with responsibility for higher over 500,000 acutely malnourished children in Ethiopia. education, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, A further 7.5 million vulnerable Ethiopians receive food Erdington (Mr. Simon), at the then Department for and cash transfers under a Productive Safety Net Innovation, Universities and Skills. In the reply given Programme. on 27 January 2009, Official Report, column 450W, on [Official Report, 19 October 2009, Vol. 497, c. 47-48WS.] departmental funding of charities and voluntary organisations, my hon. Friend referred to some of the Letter of correction from Douglas Alexander: Department’s non-departmental bodies that are registered An error has been identified in the second paragraph charities, and said that the funding provided to the of the written ministerial statement made on 19 October Design Council was as follows: 2009 where it refers to “over 500,000 acutely malnourished children in Ethiopia”. £000 The correct full text should have been: Name of body 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 “Ethiopia accounts for the highest proportion of the humanitarian Design Council 6,179 6,069 6,035 caseload in the region, with over 6 million people needing emergency assistance until the end of 2009. A third of these people live in the Somali region of Ethiopia. UNICEF estimates that there are Unfortunately, the figures for 2008-09 did not include currently over 500,000 severely acutely malnourished children in capital grant in aid funding, or additional funding for the Horn of Africa, of whom more than half are in Ethiopia. specific projects and there was an error in the 2006-07 A further 7.5 million vulnerable Ethiopians receive food and cash figure. The correct figures are as follows: transfers under a Productive Safety Net Programme.”

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 3 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 695 TREASURY—continued Bank Liabilities...... 699 Small Businesses ...... 702 Banking Sector Reform...... 709 Tax Avoidance ...... 708 Bingo Industry...... 698 Time-to-Pay Arrangements...... 706 Capital Projects...... 707 Topical Questions ...... 710 Comprehensive Spending Review...... 709 UK Economic Growth...... 703 Credit Unions ...... 708 Unemployment ...... 696 International Development ...... 705 VAT Returns ...... 695 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 3 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 35WS TREASURY ...... 35WS General Affairs and External Relations Council .... 35WS Tax Information Exchange (The Bahamas)...... 35WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 38WS Migration (Bulgarian and Romanian Workers)...... 38WS JUSTICE...... 38WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 39WS Northern Ireland Court Service ...... 38WS Correction to Oral Answer...... 39WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 3 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 961W CABINET OFFICE...... 884W Bankruptcy ...... 961W Census: Postal Services...... 885W Broadband ...... 962W Census: Sanctions ...... 884W Broadband: Finance ...... 962W Government Departments: Official Hospitality ..... 885W Business: UK Trade and Investment ...... 963W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 886W Consolidated Contractors Corporation ...... 964W Manpower: Cabinet Office ...... 886W Departmental Energy...... 964W Public Relations ...... 886W Departmental Marketing ...... 964W Renewables Advisory Board...... 887W Departmental Official Cars...... 967W Departmental Postal Services...... 967W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 941W Departmental Procurement...... 968W Academies Enterprise Trust: Finance ...... 941W Digital Broadcasting: Birmingham ...... 969W Academies: Sponsorship ...... 942W Entry Clearances: Students ...... 969W Anti-Semitism...... 942W Export Credit Guarantees: Nigeria ...... 970W Children: Databases...... 942W High Pay Commission ...... 970W Children: Day Care...... 943W Higher Education...... 970W Children in Care ...... 942W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 970W Children’s Centres: Hertfordshire ...... 943W Higher Education: Birmingham...... 973W Departmental Public Expenditure ...... 943W Israel: Natural Gas...... 975W Departmental Telephone Services...... 944W Members: Correspondence ...... 975W Digital Communications Unit ...... 944W Motor Vehicles: Government Assistance...... 975W Education: Finance...... 945W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 976W Family Courts: Guardians ...... 945W Musical Instruments: Manufacturing Industries .... 976W Free School Meals: Eligibility...... 946W National Endowment for Science, Technology and GCE A-Level: Tamworth ...... 946W the Arts: Finance ...... 976W Gypsy, Roma and Traveller Month ...... 946W Overseas Trade: Afghanistan ...... 977W Home Education...... 947W Parental Leave: Birmingham...... 977W Parents: Training...... 947W Rover Group: Serious Fraud Office...... 977W Pre-School Education ...... 947W Royal Mail: Communications Workers Union ...... 978W Pre-School Education: Finance ...... 948W Royal Mail: Industrial Disputes ...... 978W Primary Education...... 948W Students: Disabled ...... 979W Pupil Exclusions ...... 949W Students: Finance ...... 980W Pupil Referral Units...... 949W Students: Loans ...... 980W Pupils: Immigrants...... 951W UK Trade and Investment...... 981W Reading: Nottingham ...... 951W UK Trade and Investment: Complaints ...... 986W Schools: Finance...... 952W Schools: Lancashire ...... 952W Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Schools: Norwich...... 952W AFFAIRS...... 797W Schools: Standards...... 954W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 797W Schools: Vetting ...... 954W Biofuels...... 797W Special Educational Needs: North West...... 954W British Waterways Board: Finance ...... 798W Specialised Diplomas...... 955W Camels ...... 799W Specialised Diplomas: Finance ...... 956W Coal Fired Power Stations...... 799W Teachers: Absenteeism ...... 958W Common Fisheries Policy ...... 799W Teachers: Lancashire...... 958W Departmental Postal Services...... 800W Teachers: Training...... 959W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 800W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 801W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 836W Departmental Travel ...... 801W Community Relations: Finance...... 836W Food: Packaging ...... 802W Council Tax: East of England...... 837W Green Alliance: Finance...... 803W Council Tax: Valuation ...... 839W Japanese Knotweed: Weed Control ...... 803W Departmental Cost Effectiveness ...... 841W Oil Fired Power Stations ...... 803W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 841W Party Conferences...... 804W Fire Services: Pensions ...... 841W Renewable Energy: Exports ...... 804W Housing: Lighting...... 842W Local Government Finance: Tamworth ...... 842W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 931W Migration Impact Fund ...... 843W 2010 World Cup...... 931W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 843W Afghanistan: Reconstruction ...... 931W Non-Domestic Rates...... 844W Afghanistan: UK Trade and Investment ...... 931W Non-Domestic Rates: Empty Property...... 845W Brazil ...... 932W Planning Permission: Appeals...... 845W British Overseas Territories: Carbon Emissions ..... 933W Police: Pay...... 845W British Overseas Territories: Databases...... 933W Roads: Lighting ...... 846W British Overseas Territories: Gross Domestic Tenant Services Authority...... 846W Product ...... 933W Tenant Services Authority: Public Consultation..... 846W British Overseas Territories: Internet ...... 934W Tony Clements ...... 846W British Overseas Territories: Renewable Energy ..... 934W British Overseas Territories: Telecommunications.. 934W Colombia ...... 935W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 809W Colombia: Armed Forces...... 935W Cultural Heritage...... 809W Colombia: Drugs ...... 935W Departmental Home Working...... 810W Democratic Republic of Congo: Armed Conflict... 935W Departmental Manpower...... 810W Departmental Rail Travel...... 936W Film ...... 810W International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Horse Racing: Bookmakers ...... 811W Yugoslavia ...... 936W Horse Racing: Towcester...... 811W Iran: EU Action...... 937W Island Games ...... 811W Israel: Nuclear Weapons ...... 937W Members: Correspondence ...... 812W Middle East: Overseas Aid...... 937W Swimming: Concessions...... 812W Middle East: Peace Negotiations...... 938W VisitBritain: Finance...... 812W Middle East: USA...... 939W World Heritage Sites ...... 813W Northern Cyprus ...... 939W Overseas Aid: Domestic Violence...... 939W DEFENCE...... 829W South America: Conflict Prevention ...... 940W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 829W Tibet: Human Rights ...... 940W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 830W United Nations Convention on the Physical Armed Forces: Injuries...... 831W Protection of Nuclear Material...... 941W Armed Forces: Meat ...... 832W Armed Forces: Training ...... 833W HEALTH...... 908W Army...... 833W Accident and Emergency Departments: Greater Departmental Official Visits...... 834W London...... 908W Fraud ...... 834W Accident and Emergency Departments: Waiting Gibraltar: Warships ...... 834W Lists ...... 908W Helicopter Carriers ...... 834W Aortic Aneurysm ...... 909W Nuclear Weapons...... 834W Blood: Contamination ...... 909W RAF Welford ...... 835W Breast Cancer: Screening...... 910W Territorial Army ...... 835W Cancer ...... 911W Type 45 Destroyers...... 835W Childbirth ...... 911W Dental Services ...... 912W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 889W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 915W Biofuels...... 889W Doctors: Sports...... 915W Biofuels: Treaties...... 889W Down’s Syndrome ...... 915W Fossil Fuel Levy: Scotland ...... 889W Haemophilia ...... 916W Fuel Poverty...... 889W Health Services: Young Offender Institutions ...... 916W Natural Gas: Storage ...... 890W Heart Diseases: Barnet Hospital ...... 916W Nuclear Weapons...... 890W Hospital Wards: Greater London...... 916W Planning Act 2008...... 890W Hospitals: Finance ...... 917W Radioactive Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 891W Hospitals: Infectious Diseases...... 918W Warm Front Scheme ...... 891W Hospitals: Reorganisation...... 918W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued JUSTICE—continued Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 919W Prisons: Greater Manchester...... 904W Housebound Patients ...... 920W Reoffenders...... 905W Maternity Services: Greater London...... 920W Secure Accommodation: Young Offender Medical Treatments...... 921W Institutions ...... 905W Neurology: Plastic Surgery...... 922W Secure Accommodation: Young Offenders...... 906W NHS: Equality ...... 923W Theft: Sentencing ...... 906W Nurses: Manpower...... 923W Young Offenders: Education ...... 906W Nutrition: Children...... 923W Young Offenders: Self-Harm...... 907W Operating Theatres: Greater London...... 924W Palliative Care: Finance ...... 924W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 888W Patient Choice Schemes: Greater London...... 925W Will Write ...... 888W Patient Choice Schemes: Hendon...... 925W Patients: Attendance ...... 926W Patients: Greater London...... 927W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 795W Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital...... 929W Cannabis...... 795W School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme ...... 929W Criminal Damage Compensation Scheme...... 795W Swine Flu...... 929W Inquiries...... 796W Urology: Greater London ...... 930W Prisoners ...... 796W

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 848W OLYMPICS ...... 797W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 848W Olympic Games 2012: Housing...... 797W Asylum ...... 848W Asylum: Coventry ...... 849W SCOTLAND...... 797W Asylum Seekers...... 849W Departmental Homeworking ...... 797W Asylum: Young People...... 850W Cheshire Constabulary: Construction ...... 850W Cocaine...... 850W TRANSPORT ...... 805W Crime: Nature Conservation ...... 851W Cycling: Helmets...... 805W Departmental Fraud ...... 852W Cycling: Safety ...... 805W Departmental Information and Communications Dartford-Thurrock Crossing...... 806W Technology ...... 852W Dartford-Thurrock Crossing: Tolls ...... 807W Departmental Postal Services...... 855W Driving Offences ...... 807W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 857W Exhaust Emissions ...... 807W Departmental Telephone Services ...... 858W Lorries: Safety...... 807W Detainees ...... 858W Motor Vehicles: Environment Protection ...... 808W Driving Offences: Mobile Phones...... 858W Motor Vehicles: Exports ...... 808W Driving Under Influence: Cycling ...... 859W Motorcycles: Environment Protection...... 808W Drugs: Smuggling ...... 863W Road Traffic Offences: Foreigners ...... 809W Entry Clearances...... 867W Rolling Stock ...... 809W Entry Clearances: Russia ...... 870W Waterloo International...... 809W Forensic Science Service...... 870W Immigration...... 870W TREASURY ...... 892W Immigration Controls ...... 871W Business Payment Support Service...... 893W Overseas Students: Entry Clearances ...... 871W Capital Projects...... 892W Police Cautions ...... 872W Child Care Vouchers ...... 893W Police: Complaints ...... 873W Child Tax Credit: Expenditure ...... 894W Police: Pay...... 874W Climate Change Levy...... 894W Police: Tamworth ...... 874W Coinage: Counterfeit Manufacturing ...... 894W Police: Termination of Employment ...... 874W Departmental Non-domestic Rates...... 895W Radicalism ...... 881W Economic Growth...... 895W Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000...... 881W Equitable Life ...... 893W Sexual Offences: Police Cautions ...... 882W EU Budget ...... 892W Vetting ...... 884W Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks...... 895W Housing: Sales ...... 896W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 847W National Debt...... 893W House of Commons: Offices ...... 847W National Insurance Fund...... 896W Refreshment Dept: Finance ...... 847W Presbyterian Mutual Society ...... 896W Public Expenditure...... 897W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 887W Small Businesses ...... 893W Guyana: Rain Forests ...... 887W Taxation: Aviation ...... 897W Sri Lanka: International Assistance ...... 888W Taxation: Gaming Machines...... 897W Taxation: Ministers of Religion ...... 898W JUSTICE...... 899W Unemployment ...... 892W Driving Under Influence...... 899W Valuation Office: Geographical Information Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 900W Systems...... 898W Offenders: Radicalism...... 901W Valuation Office: Training...... 898W Offensive Weapons...... 901W Prisoners Release: Terrorism ...... 902W WALES...... 795W Prisoners Release: Young Offender Institutions ..... 903W Departmental Postal Services ...... 795W Prisoners: Suicide...... 904W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 795W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 813W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Average Earnings: Income Related Benefits ...... 813W Incapacity Benefit ...... 821W Better Off in Work Credit: Yorkshire ...... 814W Jobcentre Plus ...... 821W Carer’s Allowance: St Albans...... 814W Jobcentre Plus: Birmingham ...... 822W Departmental Manpower...... 814W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 823W Departmental Postal Services...... 815W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Derbyshire ...... 825W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 815W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Employment Schemes ...... 826W Departmental Rail Travel...... 816W New Deal for Disabled People and Pathways to Departmental Telephone Services ...... 816W Work...... 826W Employers’ Liability...... 817W Social Security Benefits...... 826W Employment Tribunals Service...... 817W State Retirement Pensions: Overseas Residence ..... 827W Future Jobs Fund...... 817W Winter Fuel Payments...... 829W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 3 November 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 7MC INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 8MC Charities ...... 7MC Ethiopia ...... 8MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 3 November 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 695] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Banking Reform [Col. 717] Statement—(Mr. Darling)

Higher Education [Col. 733] Statement—(Mr. Lammy)

Onshore Wind Turbines (Proximity of Habitation) [Col. 746] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Peter Luff)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill (Programme) (No. 2) [Col. 752] Programme motion (No. 2)—(Mr. Shaw)—on a Division, agreed to Considered in Committee (First allotted day)

PCSOs (Somerset) [Col. 830] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Affordable Housing (Rural Areas) [Col. 179WH] Farm Animal Welfare [Col. 203WH] Thames Valley Police [Col. 220WH] MG Rover [Col. 226WH] Muscular Dystrophy [Col. 232WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 35WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 795W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 7MC]