T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T
R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L
P R O C E E D I N G S
D A A L T Y N
HANSARD
Douglas, Tuesday, 15th June 2021
All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:
www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard
Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.
Volume 138, No. 24
ISSN 1742-2256
Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2021 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Present:
The President of Tynwald (Hon. S C Rodan OBE)
In the Council: The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt Rev. P A Eagles), The Attorney General (Mr J L M Quinn QC), Mr P Greenhill, Mr R W Henderson, Mrs K A Lord-Brennan, Mrs M M Maska, Mr R J Mercer, Mrs J P Poole-Wilson and Mrs K Sharpe with Mr J D C King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.
In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. J P Watterson) (Rushen); The Chief Minister (Hon. R H Quayle CBE) (Middle); Mr J R Moorhouse and Hon. G D Cregeen (Arbory, Castletown and Malew); Hon. A L Cannan and Hon. T S Baker (Ayre and Michael); Mr C C Thomas and Mrs C A Corlett (Douglas Central); Mrs C L Barber and Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East); Hon. D J Ashford MBE and Mr G R Peake (Douglas North); Mrs C S B Christian and Mr S P Quine (Douglas South); Mr M J Perkins and Mrs D H P Caine (Garff); Hon. R K Harmer and Hon. G G Boot (Glenfaba and Peel); Mr W C Shimmins (Middle); Mr R E Callister and Ms J M Edge (Onchan); Hon. A J Allinson and Mr L L Hooper (Ramsey); Hon. L D Skelly (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.
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Business transacted
Leave of absence granted ...... 2331 Congratulations to the Chief Minister on award of CBE ...... 2331 1. Papers laid before the Court ...... 2332 Bills for signature ...... 2334 Question of Urgent Public Importance ...... 2335 Economic impact of COVID on hospitality industry – Economic Recovery Group statement ...... 2335 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 2342 1. Next Lieutenant Governor’s swearing-in – When and where ...... 2342 2. Next Lieutenant Governor’s swearing-in – Castle Rushen works ...... 2343 3. Independent report on DoI – Publication date ...... 2344 4. Bona Vacantia fund – No plans to publish business cases ...... 2345 5. Accounting For Sustainability requirements – Supporting current climate change initiatives ...... 2347 6. COVID-19 economic support – Amount paid to each sector ...... 2348 7. Leaving engines running unnecessarily – DoI policy for Government ...... 2353 8. Electric vehicle charging points on Government sites – DoI policy on installation and use ...... 2355 9. Airport inshore rescue boat – Purchase details; number of launches ...... 2357 10. Green Living Grant scheme – Launch date ...... 2360 11. Reserved accommodation – Reporting on issues debated in January 2021 ...... 2363 12. National Housing Strategy – Date for bringing forward ...... 2365 13. Cars running in school car parks – DESC policy towards parents ...... 2367 14. Distance learning and UK study – Income thresholds for support ...... 2369 15. Youth issues and advocacy – DESC Minister’s action to promote ...... 2371 16. Updated animal welfare legislation – Date to be brought to Tynwald ...... 2373 17. Cancer screening programmes – Discussions with Manx Care ...... 2375 18. Corrin Home – Work and engagement since May Tynwald ...... 2376 19. Medicinal cannabis – Progress made ...... 2383 20. Review of regulation of legal services – Progress in appointing independent Chair ... 2385 21. Housing First arrangements – Organisations expressing interest; date and terms ..... 2387 22. Open borders and COVID-19 – Protecting key workers and the unvaccinated ...... 2389 The Court adjourned at 1.03 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.32 p.m...... 2391
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Open borders and COVID-19 – Further supplementary questions ...... 2391 23. Capital Projects Unit establishment – Progress; developments of over £3 million ..... 2393 24. Libraries – Future direction of ...... 2398 Suspension of Standing Orders to take the remaining Oral Questions – Motion lost ...... 2400 Procedural – Questions 25, 27 and 37 withdrawn; remaining Oral Questions answered in writing ...... 2401 Questions for Written Answer ...... 2403 25. Occupancy deposit scheme – Question withdrawn ...... 2403 26. Slieau Whallian, Carraghan and Injebreck Hill footpaths – Restoring public access .... 2403 27. Airport operator’s licence – Question withdrawn ...... 2403 28. Public rights of way – Mechanism to legally protect ...... 2404 29. First-time buyers – Property price rise impact and help planned ...... 2404 30. Census 2021 – Question selection ...... 2405 31. Speech and language therapy – DESC provision ...... 2405 32. COVID-19 and schools – Mitigations in place and advice given ...... 2406 33. Youth Services – Impact of transfer to Manx Sport and Recreation ...... 2406 34. Ettyl’s purchase plans for Stobart Air– Question withdrawn ...... 2407 35. Manx renewable energy generation – Accessing UK Contracts for Difference regime 2408 36. DESC minibuses – PPV licence requirement for charitable use ...... 2408 37. Ballakermeen swimming pool – Question withdrawn ...... 2409 38. CoMin committees and groups – Legal and political bases; cost ...... 2409 39. Libraries – Use and cost; CoMin investigation results ...... 2411 40. Public sector employees – Application of PSC policies ...... 2411 41. Census online system – Capacity and challenges faced ...... 2412 42. Census 2021 – Communications with office since 25th May 2021 ...... 2413 43. Programme for Government – Annual progress since April 2019 ...... 2413 44. Public service media – Future; Government submission to Ofcom review ...... 2414 45. Corrin Home and associated land and buildings – Ownership by charities ...... 2414 46. Corrin Home – Accounts of involved charities ...... 2415 47. Protecting charities – Use of Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019 ...... 2416 48. MNH preservation work – Plans, expenditure and income ...... 2416 49. Returning the Peggy to Castletown – Publishing paper on cost ...... 2419 50. Children’s facilities – Assessment and gaps identified ...... 2420 51. Education Act 1872 150th anniversary – DESC plans to celebrate...... 2422 52. Biodiversity Strategy Action 21 – Application ...... 2423 53. Single-use plastics – Elimination...... 2424 54. Affordable housing– Provision and commuted sums raised 2020-21 ...... 2425 55. Nursing and residential care facilities – DHSC policy on referrals ...... 2425
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56. Residential care for older people – Referral process ...... 2426 57. Vaccine rollout progress – Estimates by 28th June 2021 ...... 2426 58. Adult social care homes – Potential capacity; empty beds in the last year ...... 2427 59. Road traffic collisions – Police attendance and driver details for last five years ...... 2429 60. The Sound Radio application for FM licence – Role of CURA, DHA, CoMin and Tynwald ...... 2430 61. Advertising and PR organisations – Law and codes for broadcasting and internet use ...... 2431 62. Broadcasting licence laws – Restrictions on newspaper groups ...... 2432 63. Public Estates and Housing Division energy management – ISO standards; Climate Change Bill 2020 ...... 2433 64. Debt advice service – Number of people contacting 2016-21 ...... 2434 65. National Housing Strategy – Working group report; transfer to Cabinet Office; delivery ...... 2435 66. Housing associations – Feasibility of formation and extension ...... 2435 67. Review of affordable housing agreements – Laying for debate ...... 2436 68. Site specific community infrastructure levy – Form and nature ...... 2436 Order of the Day ...... 2437 3. BBC TV Licensing – Statement by the Minister for Policy and Reform...... 2437 4.-6. Government debt issue; Government lending to Manx Utilities Authority; and Government lending to Isle of Man Steam Packet Group Ltd – Motions carried ...... 2444 7. Revenue Contingency Fund – Motion carried ...... 2460 8. Proposal to review harms caused by illicit substances – CoMin Substance Misuse Steering Group Report – Motion carried...... 2461 9. Review of the National Insurance Scheme – Report and public consultation – Debate commenced ...... 2464 The Court adjourned at 5.22 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.57 p.m...... 2472 Review of the National Insurance Scheme – Debate concluded – Amended motion carried ...... 2472 10. Tynwald Management Committee – Clerk of Tynwald – Dr Jonathan King appointed ...... 2478 11. Public Accounts Committee – Salisbury Street Nursing Home – First Report 2020-21 received and recommendation approved ...... 2479 12. Public Accounts Committee – Tynwald Auditor General – Second Report 2020-21 received and recommendations approved ...... 2484 13. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – Implementation of the Abortion Reform Act 2019 – Second Report 2020-21 received ...... 2487 Announcement of Royal Assent – Beneficial Ownership (Amendment) Act 2021; Companies (Amendment) Act 2021; and Council of Ministers (Amendment) Act 2021 ...... 2496 14. Public Appointments – Isle of Man Financial Services Authority – Appointments approved ...... 2497
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15. Manx Museum and National Trust Act 1959 – Sale of property at Ballastrooan, Colby – Motion carried ...... 2497 16. Town and Country Planning Act 1999 – Town and Country Planning (Permitted Development) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved...... 2500 17. Public Sector Pensions Act 2011 – Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2021 approved ...... 2501 18. Education Act 2001 – Education (Student Awards) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 approved ...... 2503 The Court adjourned at 8.02 p.m...... 2506
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Tynwald
The Court met at 10.30 a.m.
[MR PRESIDENT in the Chair]
The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald.
The President: Moghrey mie, good morning, Hon. Members.
5 Members: Moghrey mie, Mr President.
The President: The Lord Bishop will lead us in prayer.
PRAYERS The Lord Bishop
Leave of absence granted
The President: Hon. Members, please feel free to move jackets if you wish. Hon. Members, I have given leave of absence for tomorrow afternoon to Hon. Member of 10 Council, Mr Henderson, to Mr Thomas on Thursday and Mr Moorhouse Thursday morning, in the event we are still sitting on Thursday.
Congratulations to the Chief Minister on award of CBE
The President: Hon. Members, I am sure the Court would wish to offer heartiest congratulations to the Chief Minister on his recently announced award of CBE in the Queen’s Birthday Honours List. 15 Many congratulations!
Members: Hear, hear!
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1. Papers laid before the Court
The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers. 20 The Clerk: Ta mee cur roish y Whaiyl ny pabyryn enmyssit ayns ayrn nane jeh’n Chlaare Obbyr. I lay before the Court the papers listed at Item 1 of the Order Paper.
Town and Country Planning Act 1999 Town and Country Planning (Permitted Development) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0157] [MEMO]
Public Sector Pensions Act 2011 Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2021 [SD No 2021/0128] [MEMO]
Education Act 2001 Education (Student Awards) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0165] [MEMO]
Financial Provisions and Currency Act 2011 Coronavirus Fisheries Industry Support (Amendment) (No. 2) Scheme 2021 [SD No 2021/0163] [MEMO]
Highways Act 1986 Highway Diversion (Public Right of Way No.268, Ballahick Lane, Ballasalla) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0030] [MEMO] Pulrose Golf Course Public Path Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0114] [MEMO]
Recreation and Leisure Act 1998, Local Government Act 1985 Recreation and Leisure (Garff) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0050] [MEMO]
Income Tax Act 1970 Income Tax (Common Reporting Standard) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0144] [MEMO] The International Tax Compliance (United States of America) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0143] [MEMO] Recovery of Foreign Taxes Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0147] [MEMO] Income Tax (Substance Requirements) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0156] [MEMO]
European Union and Trade Act 2019 Burma and Misappropriation Sanctions (Revocation) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0146] [MEMO]
Elections (Keys and Local Authorities) Act 2020 Election Fees Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0166] [MEMO]
Value Added Tax Act 1996 Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0150] [MEMO]
Reports
Council of Ministers Substance Misuse Steering Group Report to Tynwald on a Proposal for a Review of the Harms Caused by Illicit Drugs [GD No 2021/0038] ______2332 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Review of National Insurance Scheme: Final Report [GD No 2021/0040]
Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Second Report for the Session 2020-21: Implementation of the Abortion Reform Act 2019 [PP No 2021/0136]
The remaining items are not the subject of motions or debates on the Order Paper
Items subject to negative resolution
Companies Act 2006 Uncertificated Securities Regulations 2006 (Operators) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0112] [MEMO]
Immigration Act 1971 Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules [SD No 2021/0155] [MEMO]
Asylum and Immigration Act 1996 Immigration (Restrictions on Employment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0170] [MEMO]
Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 Customs (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0153] [MEMO]
Council Regulation (EC) No 2368/2002 Council Regulation (EC) (Kimberley Process) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0168] [MEMO]
Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 Isle of Man Freeport Free Zone Designation Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0173] [MEMO]
Value Added Tax 1996 Value Added Tax (Rate of Interest) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0149] [MEMO]
Documents subject to no procedure
Merchant Shipping Act 1985 Merchant Shipping (Manning and STCW) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0175] [MEMO]
Air Navigation (Isle of Man) Order 2015 Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (Tynwald Day) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0164] [MEMO]
Submarine Cables Act 2003 Supplemental Authorisation issued under Submarine Cables Act 2003 [GC No 2021/0076] [MEMO]
Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018 Global Anti-Corruption Sanctions (Isle of Man) Order 2021 [SI 2021/0526] [MEMO] Myanmar (Sanctions) (Isle of Man) Order 2021 [SI 2021/0529] [MEMO]
COVID 19 Salary Support Scheme Notice by Treasury: COVID 19 Salary Support Scheme [GC No 2021/0080] ______2333 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Notice by Treasury: COVID 19 Salary Support Scheme [GC No 2021/0081]
Reports
Council of Ministers’ Report on a Review of the Town and Country Planning (Telecommunications) Development Order 2019 [GD No 2021/0039]
Public Service Reform: 1st Progress Report: Preparing for the Future [GD No 2021/0035]
Department of Home Affairs Response to the Tynwald Social Affairs Policy Review Committee Report on Grandparents’ Rights [GD No 2021/0043]
Manx Care: Overview Document: Service Year 2021-22 [GD No 2021/0036] [MEMO]
Council of Ministers’ Response to Tynwald Public Accounts Committee: First Report 2020-21: Salisbury Street Nursing Home [GD No 2021/0037]
Executive Committee of the Isle of Man Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Report on a Benchmarks Self-Assessment 2020-21 [PP No 2021/0138]
Chief Minister’s Committee on Community and Public Engagement: Charities Report [GD No 2021/0034]
Correction Notices
Sea-Fisheries (Lobster and Crab) (Recreational Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [Correction Notice]
Sea-Fisheries (Lobster and Crab) (Recreational Licensing) (Amendment) (No.2) Regulations 2021 [Correction Notice]
Bills for signature
The President: Hon. Members, I have to announce that the following Bills are ready for signature: the Beneficial Ownership (Amendment) Bill 2021, the Companies (Amendment) Bill 2020 and the Council of Ministers (Amendment) Bill 2020. With the consent of the Court, I shall 25 circulate the Bills for signing while we deal with other business. Is the Court content?
Members: Agreed.
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Question of Urgent Public Importance
TREASURY
Economic impact of COVID on hospitality industry – Economic Recovery Group statement
The Hon Member for Douglas South (Mrs Christian) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
If he will make a statement on behalf of the Economic Recovery Group in relation to the economic impact of COVID on the hospitality industry since March 2020; whether Salary Support and MERA will be extended to next Easter following the PwC recommendations; and what additional financial support is being considered for this sector given the uncertainty regarding the current situation in the UK?
The President: Hon. Members, before we turn to the Question Paper proper, I have allowed 30 Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Christian, the opportunity to ask the Treasury Minister an Urgent Question, of which you have received advance notice by email. I call on Mrs Christian.
Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President, and good morning. 35 I would like to ask the Treasury Minister if he will make a statement on behalf of the Economic Recovery Group in relation to the economic impact of COVID on the hospitality industry since March 2020; whether Salary Support and MERA will be extended to next Easter following the PwC recommendations; and what additional financial support is being considered for this sector given the uncertainty regarding the current situation in the UK? 40 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: I call on the Treasury Minister, the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Cannan, to reply.
45 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, I thank the Hon. Member for her Question and yesterday in response I circulated some financial information for the benefit of Tynwald Members. The Economic Recovery Group welcomes the PricewaterhouseCoopers report and recognises that the hospitality sector, amongst others across our economy, have of course been impacted by 50 COVID-19 and the uncertainty that this has brought to many businesses. Since the first lockdown in March 2020 there has been an extensive range of support schemes available to assist the hospitality sector, including salary support, business grants, premises support and financial help towards business adaptations. Members will also be aware that I recently announced a further payment based on the equivalent of three years’ annual rates to each eligible hospitality business 55 premises to further ease the transition from the latest period of restrictions. In total, this equates to almost £19 million of direct financial assistance for the hospitality sector. Additionally, the reduction in the VAT rate to 5% is estimated to have cost the Government in the region of £12 million. The majority of this will have been of benefit to the hospitality sector. That is £30 million of direct and indirect support for this sector. 60 The Economic Recovery Group remains committed to supporting the economy in the right way, including providing training, skills development and stimulus, all to support people back into work and to help businesses regain lost momentum. There is no doubt, Mr President, that the pandemic has taken its toll on some sectors of our economy and businesses across our domestic economy
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are still facing considerable challenges. Our job is far from finished, but I stand by the support that 65 has been delivered to our economy as appropriate, fair and reasonable. We have protected jobs and incomes. We have protected families and individuals who have found themselves without work and income. We have protected vital industries and traditions that contribute to the diversity and heritage of this Island nation. We have protected fishermen, manufacturers, tourism and the domestic economy, and that is why we should take confidence 70 that Social Security are reporting to me today that the latest jobseeker figure is standing at 577 people from a peak of 1,350 at the height of the pandemic. Also bear in mind, Mr President, that in excess of 2,000 individuals were also claiming MERA during the pandemic and during this period. In other words, they were not being directly employed and paid by businesses. Mr President, the Economic Recovery Group will continue its commitments to the Island’s 75 people, its businesses and the next generation and will ensure a plan is in place to maintain momentum throughout the foreseeable future, protecting jobs, stabilising our economy and investing in our future.
A Member: Hear, hear. 80 The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Christian.
Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Minister agree with the PwC report that a more finely tuned system capable of 85 adapting to different types and scale of hospitality businesses who – and I must say this strongly – can demonstrate a reduced turnover would be the best way this Government could respond to the financial hardship that these businesses continue to face as they carry the burden of the pandemic? Thank you, Mr President. 90 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Mr President, I absolutely empathise that businesses in the hospitality sector are facing challenges as a result of the pandemic, as are businesses across our domestic economy. 95 This matter is not just limited to the hospitality sector and we will continue to work to provide the appropriate stimulus and support where we feel and believe it is applicable. But let me be clear, Mr President: £11 million-worth of Salary Support for this sector, nearly £3 million of business grant support, £580,000 so far of Business Premises Support Schemes, £12 million in VAT reduction, £400,000 in adaptation schemes, £3 million in Hospitality Transition 100 Support Scheme, the latest scheme that we have just announced, and a further £200,000 as we have rebated the Triennial fees for the industry – £30 million in total, and we continue to support this industry and others across our domestic economy and we look to support them with a range of stimulus schemes into the future. Mr President, I accept it is tough for businesses at the moment in this environment, we are 105 continuing to work, but we should take confidence that what we are doing is having its impact. We were forecast that thousands of people would be unemployed as a result of this pandemic, and we should be proud that this Government has taken that figure down to 577, a figure that continues to reduce and is fast approaching the 20-year low that we had pre the pandemic. We are doing our job, Mr President. We are stimulating the economy, we protected businesses, we 110 protected families, we protected jobs and we are going to carry on protecting. I empathise with the gentlemen and ladies in this Court today who are fighting for their survival in very difficult terms, in very difficult circumstances, but we also have to be fair and we have to deliver support that is fair; fair both to the taxpayer, but also fair and appropriate to the whole economy in its individual sectors. 115 ______2336 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. It is great to say that our unemployment figures are going down, but we certainly do not want 120 to see them going back up (A Member: Hear, hear.) if we are not supporting the correct industries. I would just like to ask the Minister, with regard to does he agree that Salary Support benefits go to employees, not to the business itself, and that there is a significant difference there? Also, is the Minister aware that figures were requested from the Department for Enterprise and the initial figure that came out to the industry was £13 million, on Friday it was £25 million and it 125 seems to be £30 million now? What figures are correct, Minister? I do feel that it would be really beneficial if you would agree to meet with the industry and go through the figures so that everybody can understand the true situation and you can also hear their individual issues. It is not just about money; it is about continuing to provide excellent services to the Isle of Man. 130 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 135 Indeed, I have met with the industry and discussed the issues with them, and I am well aware from speaking to them, both as a collective and speaking to individual members, of some of the challenges that these businesses are facing. But I would just point out that the more this has developed, the more analysis that we have put in to where the support has been delivered, the more the figures that I have delivered are absolutely accurate to Hon. Members. Of course, when 140 we initially delivered our figures, we did not have at that time the full VAT analysis and obviously that VAT analysis is fundamentally important. Bear in mind of course that businesses will have benefited from a reduction from 20% to 5%, so for every £100-worth of turnover, if their prices had remained consistent, they obviously had an additional £15 of profit there. The point about Salary Support, though, Mr President, in terms of will I agree that it just went 145 to employees, we designed our Salary Support so that businesses could actually use it as a leverage tool, both to retain the relationship with the employer, but also to help support their business. As opposed to where in the UK they are paying for the employee to stay at home, our scheme was designed in such a way that you could carry on claiming, providing that the business turnover was down. In actual fact, I think that gave business owners a great deal more flexibility and yes of 150 course it helped retain the employment status of the individuals, but it did not mean to say those individuals were not being productive at the same time. So there is a fundamental difference I think between furlough, which was paying people to stay at home, and the employment and wage scheme that we came up with which was designed to give people as much flexibility as possible. 155 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Quine.
Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I am sure it is apparent to all of us – and given what he has just said certainly the Minister – 160 the vital role which our hospitality sector plays in society with regard to our well-being and the fabric of our lives. Given this, and whilst it could be seen as a complex issue, comparing, say, a hostelry which serves purely beverages so as in the role of the traditional public house, to a fine dining restaurant. But whatever the case, there is no doubt a requirement to continue to act so as to buttress the sector, and with a view to this, would the Minister consider the adoption of a 165 simplified formula, perhaps in which a specific year, for example, 2019, is taken as the baseline and subsequent Value Added Tax returns could then be used in comparison? Thank you, Mr President. ______2337 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Minister to reply.
170 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Well, I have already outlined the scale of the support that has already been applied to the industry, and we are going to continue to work with the industry, and we are going to look to stimulate, as much as possible, activity. I would point Hon. Members to the Domestic Events Fund as one flagship scheme that has been put forward to enable activity and footfall to be pushed 175 through our towns. The Department for Enterprise are working on other stimulus activities to bring forward in particular the shoulder period, September/October, and bear in mind I think we are in a long game here, Mr President. This is not going away, this crisis. We are hopefully making progress, I am hoping that we will hear later about our plans for later this month, but this crisis could equally flip 180 the other way. We need also as a Government to have a sense of responsibility and perspective and be ready to protect the Island as a whole, should – and I hope not – there be a regression, in which case everybody will need a support across the economy. I would also just point out to the Hon. Member, I take on board his respected views, which I have a lot of time for, but I point out it is not just one, hospitality is not standing alone here across 185 our domestic economy and one has to help support businesses in a targeted way, but I point out to Hon. Members that one has to also justify to other businesses and sectors across the economy why they should also not receive support just based on a turnover basis. There are, as Hon. Members will appreciate, having spent already significant sums – £120 million; £132 million if you include the move to reduce the VAT rate – there could be many multiple millions of pounds 190 if we have to support the whole domestic economy. So we are prepared to work to look to stimulate. We are prepared to looking forward, we are trying to create the environment in which businesses can succeed, and we are going to continue to work and pay attention to specific areas where we feel it is justified, fair and appropriate to do so. 195 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. It is helpful that the Minister has compared sectors and laid out in April Tynwald Question 200 number 52 sectoral comparisons. The tourist accommodation sector is vital, just as vital as catering and entertainment. Can the Treasury Minister explain why the tourist accommodation sector has got 40% more support from the COVID scheme, despite the fact the catering and entertainment sector employs five times as many people, a huge number of extra organisations operating in that sector compared with in tourist accommodation, and the contribution to the 205 economy in terms of the national economy is infinitely greater in catering and entertainment in the figures provided in April? Can the Minister advise why?
The President: Reply, sir.
210 The Minister: So let me be clear on the latest figures that I have, Mr President, because I think the Hon. Member may be trying to look back a little bit too far in time: £18.2 million has gone to travel and tourism, including visitor accommodation and, as I said, some estimated £30 million has gone into the hospitality, catering, entertainment and leisure businesses. The Hon. Member will well be aware that there was a definitive decision taken strategically to 215 protect our hotel accommodation for the future, for when the economy reopened; that if we did not have anywhere for individuals and tourists and businesses visiting the Island to come to we would not have a visitor economy at all. It was also made clear that the closure of the borders fundamentally restricted the market access, the availability of business, for those institutions, and that is why they have received the level of support that they have. ______2338 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
220 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian.
Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. The PwC report identifies that trading conditions would not resume until Easter 2022. Will the Minister commit to continuous review to reassure this industry that Government is listening? 225 When I give you examples, when across the water other governments are providing restart grants of up to £25,000 to help businesses reopen, does he feel that the three years’ annual rates bill is enough for these businesses to survive all the way through to Easter 2022? Thank you, Mr President.
230 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Well, as ever, Mr President, there are statistics and there are statistics and they can be interpreted without the detail in any way you like. I think the Hon. Member would need to look into that, the eligibility criteria for that type of grant, listen to the many complaints that are 235 coming in around eligibility and the failure that individual businesses have claimed in order to be able to access that level of grant. It is also not comparing like for like, because bear in mind we have had unrestricted trading over here for a substantial period of time compared to the restrictions that have gone on and continue to go on in the UK marketplace. So Mr President, I would say to Hon. Members, I am confident that when the final analysis is 240 done that our support and our schemes will stand up to be proven to be at the very top level of industry support that has been provided by any nation, in any capacity, and in fact the direct support that has gone in, in the way of grants and cash grants and the latest round of supporting. It is not perfect, Mr President. I know that many businesses are still having to find their way through this. But I stand by the view that what we have done has protected our economy, has 245 stabilised the economy, it has protected jobs and that we are going to continue to look and examine, and what we need to do to grow our economy, to find our way out of this and build back better for the future.
The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 250 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Just with regard to the updated figures this morning from the Minister, that is clear that that is not the figures that the PwC report were reporting at that point in time. So is it time for the Minister to get an updated reflection on that report with the latest figures that he has got today? 255 Also, would the Minister agree to issuing figures per employee for each domestic sector? On a quick analysis of figures received last night, construction received £5,600 per job, tourism £13,000, hospitality, £999. I do think that you need to be looking at the sector and if you would agree to doing a breakdown per employee for domestic sector of what has been received for COVID, that would be really helpful. 260 Also, the categories that have been reported, you did clump in hospitality, entertainment and leisure, and within the sectors that have been reported, there is quite a large number in ‘other’. So are they pubs? Are they clubs? Are they leisure? It does seem that some of the figures are not clear and I think it would be really helpful to put clear figures out there. Thank you, Mr President. 265 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: I am happy, Mr President, if Hon. Members wish to seek some clarification, if the Hon. Member wishes to write to me to try and break down the analysis that she has looked for, I 270 will of course seek to provide that analysis. I think Hon. Members will find from that analysis that catering and entertainment per job has received substantial support, and particularly that ______2339 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
obviously the concern will be then, as you build that out, is the support in terms of translated into GDP an actual return? So I think, Hon. Members, we provided a robust set of figures for you, you can analyse and drill 275 down as much as required, but obviously you then get to a level where you then start getting into almost micromanagement of a sector and into levels where you will be calling for almost support per business, if you like, within sectors within sectors. So Hon. Members, I am happy to supply the figures. The figures are out there, they have been robustly put together and I have given you a fair analysis of the support that has been provided 280 this morning.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Barber.
Mrs Barber: Thank you, Mr President. 285 The Minister has talked of the support provided to date, and support that the industry representatives that I have spoken to are certainly extremely grateful for. However, I really would push the Minister again to recognise that the support does remain insufficient for many, especially given those extreme costs of reopening and the challenges around the employment of new staff to get to the level they need to be. I wonder if he could just give a really firm commitment to 290 explore how best additional financial support could be applied.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Mr President, indeed, from my recent discussions in the last few weeks and 295 listening to the representatives from the industry and indeed with individual discussions with Hon. Members, I believe the Economic Recovery Group did react to that. We brought forward a rates scheme giving three months’ … or three years’ annual rates repayment/rebate over a three-month period – so whichever way you spin it. Three years basically rates and that rebate is now up and open and businesses pretty much across this sector, because of the downturn over TT and it is 300 very carefully worded to ensure that they can qualify because of this broader downturn period, will be able to claim an average of £9,000 per premises. This is an additional stimulus that has been put into the industry. I stand by the levels of support that have been provided, but empathise with the fact that many businesses are still impacted across our economy, and that is why we are going to have to continue 305 to listen and have to continue to work with businesses to find ways through this, to stimulate our economy and to find our way and to grow our way out of what has been a very difficult trading period for many people, not just in hospitality but across our domestic economy.
The President: I am going to take two more supplementary questions. Hon. Member for 310 Arbory, Castletown and Malew, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Given the limited amount of domestic demand and the current constraints on it, if the borders remain at 2.5 or revert to 3, will the current support packages be reviewed as a matter of urgency? 315 Thank you.
The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: In short, Mr President, if we go backwards instead of going forwards in terms of 320 finding our way out of this pandemic, then of course I can assure all Hon. Members that were there to be a regression in the status of our borders, we would immediately review our financial support schemes.
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The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. 325 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Treasury Minister commit to update the figures in the context of the Keys Question that is already down about the number of organisations in each sector that have received COVID-19 Economic Recovery Group support? 330 Secondly, to answer my own question, (Laughter) does the Minister agree with me that there is a perception out there that this Government favours those with assets rather than those who run businesses inside those assets, thus there is the support for tourist accommodation, rather than those who work providing services out of those assets, firstly? And secondly, does the Minister agree with me that giving support through rates looks like it 335 is paying off public servants inside local authorities, rather than caring for the businesses that are operating in the private sector?
The President: Minister to reply.
340 The Minister: I have got to absolutely reject both those statements, Mr President. I have already told Hon. Members, and pretty much we all agreed, that we needed to support our strategic assets, which were identified as our hotel and accommodation providers and that support has been duly given and those assets have been protected up until this point. In terms of the rates, that is not about providing local government funding. That has been used 345 as a proxy for the size and scale and location and overheads of an appropriate business, and that is the reason why we have used the rates bill as the quickest and easiest way to get support to these businesses. One of the key aspects that we identified right from the very start, Mr President, in all this was that we needed to get cash out – cash to businesses and cash to our families – in an emergency 350 situation, and the easiest and quickest way to do that was to make these schemes as accessible as possible, without added bureaucracy, without producing bank statements, without producing accounts, and we have done that and we have made our schemes accessible and the rates was an easy, quick, effective way for us to get cash to businesses. That is what we have done and we have reacted appropriately. As I said, we are going to continue to stay alert to problems within our 355 economy. The Economic Recovery Group will continue to meet over the summer, and we are going to continue to look at the stimulus programme that we need to keep our businesses running and to find a way to recover from the downturn that they have suffered as a result of the pandemic.
360 The President: Hon. Members, that deals with the Urgent Question.
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Questions for Oral Answer
CHIEF MINISTER
1. Next Lieutenant Governor’s swearing-in – When and where
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chief Minister:
When and where the next Lieutenant Governor will be sworn in; and if he will make a statement?
The President: We turn to the Question Paper. Question 1, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse, please.
365 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister when or whether the next Lieutenant Governor will be sworn in; and if he will make a statement? Thank you.
The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply, Mr Quayle. 370 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. As you will know from your own involvement, there was an open recruitment process for the role of the next Lieutenant Governor, which attracted a field of candidates that was significant in size and impressive in quality. The recommendation of the local selection panel has been notified 375 to the Ministry of Justice for approval by Her Majesty the Queen, and we hope to have a formal announcement about His Excellency’s successor later this summer. A meeting of the swearing-in committee has been held and an officer working group has been established that will put in place the arrangements for the ceremony and Hon. Members will be informed of the date in due course. Hon. Members will recall that the 2016 swearing-in ceremony of the Lieutenant Governor took 380 place in Douglas. At the July 2017 Tynwald sitting, Hon. Members approved a motion tabled by my hon. colleague the Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, Mr Cregeen, that called for the return of the swearing-in ceremony to Castle Rushen. The progress at Castle Rushen has been hampered by challenges in the local construction sector as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, but the intention of the swearing in Committee is that the ceremony will indeed take place in the 385 courthouse at Castle Rushen.
The President: Supplementary question, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Chief Minister, for that reassuring 390 Answer. Live streaming of the event is planned. Will local authorities and the Council be encouraged and support made available to erect large screens in areas like Castletown Square to enable local people and visitors to watch the ceremony as it happens? Thank you. 395 The President: Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President.
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This is of course a matter for each local authority and not for me to get drawn into the detailed 400 operational planning, but we certainly stand ready to work closely, Mr President, with any local authority to ensure that it is a memorable occasion.
The President: Mr Moorhouse.
405 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Chief Minister. Are there any contingency plans being put in place in the event of COVID re-entering the community? Thank you.
The President: Chief Minister. 410 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. As with so many aspects of our daily lives, we will need to learn to live with COVID-19 – I think it was the front-page headline today from the Prime Minister – and those planning the event will need to be mindful, Mr President, of the circumstances at the time and have mitigations put in 415 place to ensure that this important event is not disrupted.
2. Next Lieutenant Governor’s swearing-in – Castle Rushen works
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Chief Minister:
What works remain to be done at Castle Rushen to enable the next Lieutenant Governor to be sworn in there; and what the timetable is for these works to be completed?
The President: Question 2, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister what works remain to be done at Castle Rushen to enable 420 the next Lieutenant Governor to be sworn in there; and what the timetable is for these works to be completed? Thank you.
The President: Chief Minister.
425 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. In my Answer to Question 1, I told Hon. Members that the swearing-in ceremony will take place in the courtroom at Castle Rushen. The courtroom has fallen into a state of disrepair, so Manx National Heritage commissioned a renovation scheme which is scheduled for completion by the end of June 2021. 430 The Hon. Member asking the Question has seen for himself on a recent visit the progress being made by a local contractor on the former courthouse at Castle Rushen. The 1970s fittings, carpets, ceiling and heating systems have been stripped out. This revealed evidence of further failure of the roof and the fabric of the walls. Manx National Heritage’s own team are working with the contractor to complete the building works by the end of June and the room will be suitably 435 decorated with new lighting, electrical services and heating. There is no impact on the overall budget. The suspended ceiling installed in the 1970s will not be replaced and instead the ceiling would be re-profiled to reveal the glazed cupola in the roof, recreating the airy character the space had when it was created in the 19th Century. The work being undertaken by Manx National Heritage makes the space available for wider use. ______2343 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
440 Thank you.
A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse. 445 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Chief Minister, for that very positive Answer. Having had the opportunity to visit the courtrooms last Wednesday, would the Chief Minister offer some words of encouragement to the team who appear to be on target to finish the work 450 on time and on budget? Thank you.
The President: Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 455 Well, yes, I am very supportive of this happening. I voted in favour of the motion at the time. As someone who takes great interest in history, I think it was important that we moved back to Castle Rushen and I am delighted that with all the problems the team have had, that they are on track to deliver the courthouse for us. Thank you.
3. Independent report on DoI – Publication date
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chief Minister:
When the independent report on the Department of Infrastructure will be published?
The President: Question 3, Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 460 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I will still ask the Question, even though we know what happened yesterday! Can I ask the Chief Minister when the independent report on the Department of Infrastructure will be published? 465 The President: Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. As Hon. Members will be aware, the Report was circulated to Members yesterday, Monday, 470 prior to it being published later that day. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Supplementary.
475 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I wonder if the Chief Minister would advise what the report actually cost. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Chief Minister. 480 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. ______2344 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
I have not got the cost. I have been told that it was not a large amount of money, but I would be guessing if I give the Hon. Member the exact price now, so I will happily circulate the cost to all Hon. Members today.
TREASURY
4. Bona Vacantia fund – No plans to publish business cases
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
Further to his Answer to Question 35 at the May 2021 sitting of Tynwald, for what reason the Treasury does not plan to publish business cases regarding the awards from the Bona Vacantia fund over the last five years?
485 The President: Question 4, Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to ask the Minister for the Treasury, further to his Answer to Question 35 at the May 2021 sitting of Tynwald, for what reason the Treasury does not plan to publish business cases regarding 490 the awards from the Bona Vacantia fund over the last five years?
The President: I call on the Minister for the Treasury, Mr Cannan to reply.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, as outlined in my Answer to 495 Question 35 at the May 2021 sitting of Tynwald, details of any projects funded utilising Bona Vacantia funds are published as part of the annual report on the commitments made under the Financial Provisions and Currency Act 2011, as payments from the Bona Vacantia fund are approved under section 4 of that Act. This report is submitted to Tynwald each year. As the Hon. Member is aware this Court, by means of the Treasury Act 1985, gave the Treasury 500 the duty to supervise and control all matters relating to the financial affairs of Government and to administer the financial resources of Government. The Treasury does not, as a matter of course, publish business cases that are submitted to Treasury for funding and, to this extent, successful bids to the Bona Vacantia fund are treated no differently. It should be noted that of the five projects that have been approved for Bona Vacantia funds, 505 two of the submissions were from organisations outside of Government. These submissions contain sensitive financial information about these organisations and I do not believe it would be appropriate to publish these business cases without significant redactions being made, and therefore the purpose of publishing such is very limited.
510 The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. Would the Minister accept that the report that is made under the Financial Provisions and Currency Act is very brief and does not include the business cases? How does he square that, then, 515 with the commitment to openness and transparency of the spending of public funds?
The President: Minister to reply.
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The Minister: Mr President, again I abide by the terms of the Act and of course the 520 Hon. Member knows that we do not publish every single business case when it comes to the expenditure of public funds. The following projects have been funded from the Bona Vacantia fund since 2016: the Year of Our Island 2018, £232,695; a World War One commemorative 50p coin for Children in Education, £50,000; Arts Council and Culture Vannin via DESC for projects to support national development 525 for culture and the arts for the Isle of Man, £130,000; the Family Library £350,000; and Live at Home Scheme £60,000. So a total cost since 2016 of £884,695.
The President: Mr Speaker.
530 The Speaker: Obviously, as the Treasury Minister alludes, I am aware that not every business case is published. What strikes me as unusual is a refusal to publish a business case that is within the public sector. I can appreciate that those coming from outside will have commercial confidentiality around them; however, that is not the case for those in the public sector and most of the ones that the Treasury Minister outlined there are actually within Government, so that is 535 why I am a little bit surprised that there is a reluctance to publish the details. Could the Minister perhaps explain a little further about the public sector ones?
The President: Reply, sir.
540 The Minister: Mr President, as far as I am aware, all these public sector commitments have in fact been before Tynwald, particularly the coins issue, which I believe came before Tynwald; and of course the Year of Our Island, which has also been examined and presented as a project from the Council of Ministers, led by my good friend sitting next to me, I believe has received appropriate scrutiny. 545 The President: Final supplementary.
The Speaker: Thank you. Firstly, the Treasury Minister’s argument is we cannot have it because we have already had it, 550 but will he provide a commitment that for all those public sector schemes we can have the business cases? It is a pretty straightforward question, Mr President.
The President: Minister to reply.
555 The Minister: Mr President, if the Hon. Member wishes further detail, then he need only write and we will try and present as much detail as possible. I could not be any clearer about the World War One commemorative 50 pence coin in terms of its value to the Island – a 50 pence coin for Children in Education for £50,000. I am not exactly sure what he needs to analyse in terms of appropriate business case and whether he wishes Tynwald to examine that further. But he sits on 560 the Public Accounts Committee and chairs the Public Accounts Committee and I am quite willing to appear before the Public Accounts Committee to discuss this matter further.
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5. Accounting For Sustainability requirements – Supporting current climate change initiatives
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
When he will have fully examined the requirement and commitment expected of an organisation signing the Accounting For Sustainability Chief Financial Officer Net Zero Statement of Support; and how those requirements fit with current climate change initiatives?
The President: Question 5, Mr Speaker.
565 The Speaker: Thank you. Again, to ask the Minister for Treasury when he will have fully examined the requirement and commitment expected of an organisation signing the Accounting for Sustainability Chief Financial Officer Net Zero Statement of Support; and how those requirements fit with current climate change initiatives?
570 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, consultation with the climate change team has been undertaken to examine the requirement and commitments expected. The Climate Change Bill would satisfy a sufficient number of the requirements to become a signatory 575 to the Accounting for Sustainability Chief Financial Officer Net Zero Statement of Support. As I am sure the Hon. Member is aware, the Climate Change Bill has been sent for Royal Assent, and this is expected to be received over the summer. Given the timing of this, I would suggest this matter is something for the next administration and Treasury Minister to consider.
580 The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. Will the Treasury Minister accept that if we are really going to be successful here all parts of the Government system need to be joined up, they need to be integrated into everything that we 585 do; that is everything from procurement to budgeting? We need the whole system, both in terms of the day-to-day mechanics of it through to the culture of delivering it, to be joined up and focused at delivering our strategic objectives as an Island. This then speaks to the Treasury element of that, so will the Treasury Minister provide a timetable to make sure that this is looked at as a matter of urgency to make sure that that cultural 590 change is actually being delivered?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Music to my ears, Mr President! Joined-up, integrated Government – absolutely 595 perfect! I actually think when it comes to climate change, never has there been a more important cause to ensure that we have got joined-up and integrated Government. I would like to see a clearer road map for climate change to be delivered and, of course, alongside that a clear recognition of the role that Government Departments are going to play and how they are going to be co-ordinated by a climate change transformation board – (A Member: Hear, hear.) or even 600 a climate change delivery board. So there is a lot of work to be done in this respect, Mr President, and I wholeheartedly find it difficult to disagree with everything that the Speaker has just said. The issue of who signs what bit of paper, where, obviously has some context. I think the most important thing is that Government does deliver a clear, appropriate, considered roadmap to delivering on its climate change
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605 commitments and once that Bill has received its Royal Assent then there will be a lot of work to do from the small acorns that have been seeded under this administration.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Speaker.
610 The Speaker: I can see I am pushing at an open door, so I may as well push a little harder! Will the Treasury Minister then give a clearer road map and show a lead in some of these initiatives in terms of joining it together, and showing a lead in terms of providing a timetable for that Net Zero Statement of Support, showing a lead in its delivery, rather than waiting for the Royal Assent to come through; and if not, why not? 615 The President: Minister.
The Minister: As I said, Mr President, we are actually actively looking at this matter. It is something that we are taking a lead on and I believe the Climate Change Bill would satisfy a 620 sufficient number of the requirements to become a signatory in that respect and we are continuing to examine it. I cannot make a commitment, Mr President, to signing something before we have actually had the recognition that we are capable of signing, but we are actually actively examining that at the moment.
6. COVID-19 economic support – Amount paid to each sector
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:
How much support has been paid out to each sector of the economy during the COVID-19 pandemic?
The President: Question 6, Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge. 625 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I will ask the Question, but I know we have had the Answer circulated. I would like to ask the Minister for Treasury how much support has been paid out to each sector of the economy during the COVID-19 pandemic? 630 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, as I informed Hon. Members yesterday, the Question did not necessarily lend itself to a concise Oral Answer and therefore it 635 resulted in the distribution to Hon. Members yesterday and this morning of tables detailing the support given to various sectors during the pandemic. However, I can confirm that the total paid in support of the economy during the COVID pandemic up to 31st May 2021 was £120,639,556 plus a further estimated £12 million of cost from the VAT reduction.
640 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister confirm that the information circulated will be put on the Hansard record? Thank you, Mr President. 645 ______2348 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Minister.
The Minister: I do hope that will be the case, Mr President.
The President: It will.
The following information was circulated to Members prior to the sitting:
Table 1: Support for the Hospitality Sector (inc Food and Drink supply chain) Table 2: Hospitality Support vs Tourism Support [https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210615_Q6_Link.pdf]
Supplementary Information The below tables are based on payments made up to 31st May 2021.
Notes to accompany Table 1 and Table 2:
The original CBSS (Coronavirus Business Support Scheme) application have very limited sector definitions to choose from, for example ‘Retail’ included other businesses such as Hair and Beauty etc. which became separate categories in later schemes. The sectors are based on the sector selected by the applicant as part of their funding application. The selection of sectors available to choose from varied slightly between the different schemes. While the sector in which individuals claiming MERA was recorded on the original online application, this data was not recorded in the payments systems and therefore a breakdown of MERA payments by sector is not available. The figures paid to Travel and Tourism businesses through the Coronavirus Recovery Scheme, Coronavirus Business Support Scheme and Strategic Capacity Scheme are estimates as these schemes are still ongoing.
Table 1
Sector Amount paid (£) Accountancy Services 604,639 Agriculture, Forestry & Fishing 941,486 Animal Care 195,883 Careers 109,886 Catering 1,387,811 Childcare 314,908 Cleaning 276,812 Commercial Fishing 50,000 Construction 21,752,338 Education / Teaching 4,086,372 E-Gaming 56,728 Electricity 201,459 Entertainment / Leisure 546,906 Film Productions 225,508 Fishing 1,189,404 Fitness 281,812 Food & Drink Production 173,629 Gardening & Horticulture 245,500 Gas & Other Energy 139,130 Health & Beauty 1,373,926 ICT (<25 employees) 49,326 ______2349 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Information Technology 25,360 Legal Services 456,080 Logistics 257,911 Manufacturing 132,247 Manufacturing Engineering 7,900,139 Manufacturing Food & Drink 1,642,105 Manufacturing Other 907,233 Medical 162,847 Medical & Health Services 2,028,579 Mining & Quarrying 104,320 Miscellaneous Services 3,397,290 Not Identified 3,879,235 Other 1,611,051 Other Business Services 5,580,452 Other Catering & Entertainment 9,902,266 Other Financial Institutions 43,680 Other Professional Services 1,680,730 Property Owning / Management 267,556 Repair 585,816 Residential / Nursing Homes 520,610 Retail 3,507,064 Retail Distribution 5,715,078 Ship Management 93,540 Tourism Accommodation 387,000 Transport & Communications 2,596,211 Water 22,135 Wholesale Distribution 1,466,941 Window / Exterior Cleaning 66,000 Travel & Tourism 11,390,000 Tourist Accommodation 6,391,101 Catering. Entertainment & Leisure 1,446,000 All sectors - MERA 12,269,517 GRAND TOTAL 120,639,556
Table 2
Amount Scheme Sector paid (£) Coronavirus Fishing Industry Support Scheme Fishing 1,189,404 Coronavirus Fishing Industry Support Scheme Total 1,189,404 Salary Support Scheme Accountancy Services 604,639 Agriculture, Forestry & Fishing 941,486 Careers 109,886 Construction 13,283,838
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Education / Teaching 3,209,667 E-Gaming 56,728 Electricity 201,459 Film Productions 225,508 Gas & Other Energy 139,130 Information Technology 25,360 Legal Services 456,080 Manufacturing Engineering 7,900,139 Manufacturing Food & Drink 1,642,105 Manufacturing Other 907,233 Medical & Health Services 2,028,579 Mining & Quarrying 104,320 Miscellaneous Services 3,397,290 Not Identified 3,879,235 Other Business Services 5,580,452 Other Catering & Entertainment 9,902,266 Other Financial Institutions 43,680 Other Professional Services 1,680,730 Property Owning / Management 267,556 Residential / Nursing Homes 520,610 Retail Distribution 5,715,078 Ship Management 93,540 Transport & Communications 2,596,211 Water 22,135 Wholesale Distribution 1,466,941 Tourist Accommodation 6,391,101 Salary Support Scheme Total 73,392,981 Coronavirus Business Support Scheme Construction 4,158,000 Education / Teaching 492,000 Logistics 105,000 Other 198,000 Retail 2,169,000 Tourism Accommodation 387,000 Travel & Tourism 540,000 Catering. Entertainment & Leisure 1,446,000 Coronavirus Business Support Scheme Total 9,495,000 CBSS - Circuit Break Lockdown Animal Care 54,000 Catering 294,000 Childcare 75,000 Cleaning 90,000 Commercial Fishing 15,000 Construction 1,443,000 Education / Teaching 105,000 Entertainment / Leisure 123,000
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Fitness 58,500 Food & Drink Production 52,500 Gardening & Horticulture 108,000 Health & Beauty 355,500 Logistics 45,000 Manufacturing 37,500 Medical 48,000 Other 322,500 Repair 159,000 Retail 162,000 CBSS - Circuit Break Lockdown Total 3,547,500 CBSS - Circuit Break Lockdown 2 Animal Care 133,000 Catering 686,000 Childcare 213,500 Cleaning 182,000 Commercial Fishing 35,000 Construction 2,867,500 Education / Teaching 276,500 Entertainment / Leisure 283,500 Fitness 192,500 Food & Drink Production 108,500 Gardening & Horticulture 137,500 Health & Beauty 955,500 ICT (<25 employees) 49,000 Logistics 94,500 Manufacturing 70,000 Medical 105,000 Other 1,029,000 Repair 371,000 Retail 787,500 Window / Exterior Cleaning 66,000 CBSS - Circuit Break Lockdown 2 Total 8,643,000 Business Premises Support Scheme Animal Care 8,883 Catering 407,811 Childcare 26,408 Cleaning 4,812 Education / Teaching 3,205 Entertainment / Leisure 140,406 Fitness 30,812 Food & Drink Production 12,629 Health & Beauty 62,926 ICT (<25 employees) 326 Logistics 13,411 Manufacturing 24,747 Medical 9,847
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Other 61,551 Repair 55,816 Retail 388,564 Business Premises Support Scheme Total 1,252,154 Strategic Capacity Scheme Travel & Tourism 9,600,000 Strategic Capacity Scheme Total 9,600,000 MERA All sectors - MERA 12,269,517 MERA Total 12,269,517 Coronavirus Recovery Scheme (excl. Tourist Accommodation) Travel & Tourism 550,000 Coronavirus Recovery Scheme (excl. Tourist Accommodation) Total 550,000 Coronavirus Business Support Scheme (excl. Tourist Accommodation) Travel & Tourism 700,000 Coronavirus Business Support Scheme (excl. Tourist Accommodation) Total 700,000 Grand Total 120,639,556
INFRASTRUCTURE
7. Leaving engines running unnecessarily – DoI policy for Government
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Henderson, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What his Department’s policy is towards staff, contractors and visitors who leave vehicle engines running unnecessarily at Government establishments? 650 The President: Question 7, Mr Henderson, Hon. Member of Council.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to ask the Question in my name.
655 The President: I call on the Minister for Infrastructure, Hon. Member Mr Baker.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you very much, Mr President. I can advise Hon. Members that the Department neither has nor needs a specific policy in respect of staff, contractors and visitors who leave vehicle engines running unnecessarily at 660 Government establishments, as it is already an offence to leave the engine of a vehicle running without cause. Rule 123 of the Manx Highway Code is headed ‘The driver and the environment’. It explains that, ‘You MUST NOT leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running,’ or leave the engine running for longer than is necessary when the vehicle is stationary on a public road. Drivers 665 are advised that it is acceptable to leave the engine running while waiting in traffic. Regulations 18 and 64 of the Road Vehicles (Maintenance and Use) Regulations 2012 put these requirements into law on the Island.
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A breach of these requirements is enforceable under section 54 of the Road Traffic Act 1985 as a summary offence. There is no need to adopt a policy position in respect of a statutory 670 requirement. It is clearly the position of the Department that it expects all partners to comply with the requirements that it has itself promoted into legislation.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.
675 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Shirveishagh for his Answer but I am afraid will he agree with me that, in fact, it is a bit of a non-answer in that the specific parts of the Act he quoted are only appertaining to the public highway? My question is specifically Government-owned properties etc. which do not form, as far as I 680 am aware, part of the public highway, thereby are ungoverned by the sections he has just read out. Would he agree with that; and would he agree that what I am seeking is a general Government policy from his Department or centrally to be distributed to all areas of Government- owned properties to inform visitors, contractors etc. that they should be turning their engines off?
685 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I can confirm, as the Hon. Member says, that the Answer does refer specifically to public roads. So from that point of view, I can agree with Mr Henderson’s comments. I am quite happy to take 690 the issue back to the Department and also to talk more widely perhaps with the Chief Secretary about enhancing compliance with this, because clearly it does not make sense for vehicles to be left running for longer than is necessary when a vehicle is stationary, either on a public road as the legislation prohibits or outside any building, or indeed on Government premises.
695 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister agree with me that the legislation is neither promoted nor enforced and that there is prominent signage at Noble’s to discourage the idling of engines? Could signs be 700 prominently displayed at appropriate Government sites to remind drivers that it is illegal to leave your engine running without cause?
The President: Minister to reply.
705 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It is of course possible to do anything in that regard. Clearly, it has implications and I think, for me, probably the quickest, most effective way is not to festoon the buildings of the Isle of Man with signs but to start to educate drivers to be more responsible in their attitude to the environment. 710 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Further to the Minister’s assurances that he would take the matter up with the Chief Secretary 715 to better inform all Government areas about the ruinous effects of leaving engines idling for no apparent reason, would he also do this as a matter of urgency or through his departmental officers, because we are in a climate change emergency, global pollution emergency threat and this is one simple way, albeit small, that will help towards resolving that issue?
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720 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. I am very happy to take it up as soon as I possibly can with the Chief Secretary and with my Department’s officers, and I think the Hon. Member makes a very valid point. This is about people 725 taking responsibility for their own actions, and that is how we are going to address these environmental issues that we do, as he quite rightly says, face as a society. So I would strongly encourage everybody to take responsibility for all the things that they can control, but I will do what I have said and take it forward on a wider basis.
730 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe.
Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. I think the Minister has just answered my question, but would he consider his Department running a specific campaign to inform all drivers of the health and environmental damage caused 735 by leaving engines running?
Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister. 740 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I will reflect on all aspects of this debate and discuss the most appropriate way of taking it forward.
8. Electric vehicle charging points on Government sites – DoI policy on installation and use
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What his Department’s policy is on the installation of electric vehicle charging points in Government-owned buildings and car parks for use by (a) staff and (b) the public?
The President: Question 8, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper. 745 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure what his Department’s policy is on the installation of electric vehicle charging points in Government-owned buildings and car parks for use by (a) staff and (b) the public? 750 The President: Minister to reply, Mr Baker.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. The Department’s policy is to continue with the installation of electric vehicle charging points 755 at relevant Government sites to support the roll-out of electric vehicles across Government where practicable. The Department is also working in partnership with the Manx Utilities Authority to help facilitate the roll-out of publicly accessible vehicle charging points in suitable Department- owned car parks and adjacent Government properties, all of which are available for use by staff members and the general public. 760 ______2355 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. So is the Minister confirming there that all of the charging points in Government car parks are 765 available for use by staff and the public? An example might be charging points out west in DEFA where if people are travelling down there to visit the OFT, for example, if they want to utilise a charging point, they would be able to do so? Just for the avoidance of doubt, can the Minister clarify that actually the proposal and the current policy is where Government is installing charging points around the Island in properties that it owns or in car parks that it manages these are 770 accessible to the public and to staff members?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 775 I am not confirming what Mr Hooper has just outlined. Where there are vehicle charging points on Government properties for Government vehicles, they are for the use of Government vehicles and not used for general public access. So the vehicle charging points for Government vehicles are at the Sea Terminal, Circus Beach, Bank Circus bus depot, Communications House, the Emergency Joint Control Room, the Police 780 Headquarters, Murray House, Ellerslie Depot, Hills Meadow depot, DEFA headquarters at Thie Slieau Whallian, DEFA sawmill at St John’s, Government House, Ramsey Grammar School and St George’s Court. In terms of public vehicle charging points, that information is not held by the Department, but the full list would be available from the Manx Utilities Authority. However, work is underway to 785 incorporate public charging points as part of the Promenade Scheme and the creation of two public vehicle charging points in front of the Sea Terminal building, which will take place imminently. In addition, the Department is facilitating the MUA roll-out of public charging points at Chester Street car park, Tynwald buildings and Kirk Michael … [Inaudible]
790 The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. It was interesting to hear that the Department of Infrastructure has installed quite a lot of charging points in Government buildings. That is great. What is stopping the Department of 795 Infrastructure applying the Pod Point app to those charging points so that members of the public can actually avail themselves of those convenient charging points and pay for the electricity that they use? What is stopping that? Thank you.
The President: Reply, sir. 800 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Clearly the lead role in terms of rolling out electric vehicle charging points is for Manx Utilities rather than the Department and the key aspect is the charging ability, as the Hon. Member has touched upon. Clearly where the electricity is provided to Government vehicles there is no ability 805 directly to charge, whereas the public-use charging points provided in partnership with Manx Utilities are equipped with payment technology. But I am happy to take the point that he has made and to explore with the Manx Utilities Authority, whether there is an ability to be smarter with how we work and as to whether it is feasible to do as he has requested.
810 The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. ______2356 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Mr Shimmins just asked the question and I think the Minister’s answer was quite helpful.
815 The President: Thank you. Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. Obviously around the Island there are some car parks that are owned by Government and 820 operated by local authorities and vice versa. I am just wondering if the Minister, with either of his hats on, has reached out to start working with local authorities in terms of this roll-out because they will be responsible or controlling an awful lot of the parking in their districts; that is a missed trick perhaps.
825 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you and again thanks to the Hon. Speaker for his question. I am not quite sure whether I am answering this as the Minister for Infrastructure, but I think in the spirit of what we are trying to achieve here we know that electric vehicles are very much part of the future. I 830 am not aware of specific initiatives in terms of local authorities, but I am very happy to pick that conversation up. I think it is primarily an issue for Manx Utilities Authority, rather than my Department, but of course my Department is also the sponsoring body for Manx Utilities Authority. I think it is really important that we do roll out the charging infrastructure. Manx Utilities is 835 looking for a ratio, as I have previously answered in either this place or in the House of Keys, for approximately one charging point for every 10 vehicles and as the numbers of electric vehicles ramp up, then we are going to need to move quickly to create that infrastructure. So clearly working with local authorities in a collaborative manner is something which would be helpful for the greater good of the Island.
9. Airport inshore rescue boat – Purchase details; number of launches
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
When the airport inshore rescue boat was purchased and at what cost; and how many times it has been launched including for training purposes?
840 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine. Question 9.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I wish to ask the Minister for Infrastructure when the airport inshore rescue boat was purchased and at what cost; and how many times it has been launched including for training 845 purposes?
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. 850 The Department purchased the airport inshore rescue boat in January 2019 at a cost of £87,058. The boat was received by the Department in October 2019 and training began soon after. Unfortunately, the impact of COVID-19 has meant that the training programme has been sporadic. However, I can advise that training has taken place on 20 occasions. Training will resume ______2357 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
as soon as a training specialist is able to come to the Island to complete and sign off the training 855 and operation. The airport inshore rescue boat has not been launched in response to an actual incident.
The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Caine.
860 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. Can I ask the Minister what is the purpose of the vessel and can he say when this one, or any previous one, how many times has the inshore rescue boat for the Airport been launched and served its purpose?
865 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. I think have already answered the latter part of the question in the final part of my original Answer to the Question, but to repeat it: the airport inshore rescue boat has not been launched 870 in response to an actual incident. I am actually really quite pleased that it has not been necessary (Laughter) to launch it as, equally, I am pleased that the fire insurance on my own home has never had to be claimed either, because these things are about being prepared and about being ready. The Airport Fire Service is responsible for responding to aircraft incidents within 1,000 m of the runway threshold, two of which are over water, so we have to have it. In the event of an 875 emergency, the Airport Fire Service would use the boat to provide emergency equipment to those passengers and crews involved in an aircraft crash. So whilst it may not have been used, it does not mean we do not need it, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quine. 880 Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister on whose recommendation was the inshore rescue boat purchased? Thank you, Mr President. 885 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. The Hon. Member, I am sure, will appreciate that the Department purchased the boat in 890 January 2019, so it was over two years ago and it predates myself as Minister. Quite happy to ask that question from officers and to respond to him directly.
The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Caine.
895 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. While I am also very glad that it has not needed to be launched for an incident, I wonder if the Minister could explain what the size or the capacity is of the airport inshore rescue boat; and so, in fact, what size of aircraft could it be launched to rescue? Also whether that might be better served, for instance, with a memorandum of understanding with the lifeboat services? 900 Thank you.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. 905 It is not about rescuing the plane, it is about rescuing the passengers on the plane. ______2358 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
I think the advantage, as I understand it, is the location gives the ability to the Airport to respond more quickly; and because it has got a responsibility, as I have already outlined, to respond to aircraft incidents within 1,000 m, it is seen as a prudent thing to have. I am quite happy to pick up the spirit of Mrs Caine’s question and to discuss whether her 910 suggestion about a memorandum of understanding with the RNLI would be helpful. However, that is not something that I can comment directly on at this point in time. (Interjection)
The President: Two further supplementaries, then we move on. Mr Quine.
915 Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President, and may I thank the Minister for his answers. Mr President, as I understand it, in order to scramble the inshore rescue boat, it requires personnel to be withdrawn from their normal operational duties with the Airport Fire Brigade and consequently reduces the category of fire cover available at Ronaldsway. Given this, would he agree that that is perhaps not the best utilisation of resources? 920 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: The Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 925 I am happy to review the point, but I think if we were in the unfortunate position of having to mobilise the inshore rescue boat, then the priority has to be the preservation of life; and, frankly, if the Airport services have to be adapted for a short period of time whilst the emphasis is on that, then I think that is a small price to pay. But I will review the situation. Clearly, there is an element of interest in this matter and quite happy to make sure that we are 930 doing the right thing. But I have not had any suggestion that we are not, Mr President.
The President: Final supplementary, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 935 I just wonder if the Minister agrees with me that surely, within the Airport area, they have to operate and their operator’s licence will dictate what is required for them to operate. Does the Minister agree with me that the professionals at the Airport will not have just bought a leisure craft, they will have bought it because it is there for an incident? Thank you, Mr President. 940 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you very much. Happy to agree with the Hon. Member for Onchan that, whilst I am not an expert on the 945 characteristics of airport inshore rescue boats, I am confident that it will have gone through a proper process and it will have gone through the appropriate degree of scrutiny, whether in the Department or through other parts of Government. Thank you.
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POLICY AND REFORM
10. Green Living Grant scheme – Launch date
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
When the new green living grant scheme will be launched?
950 The President: Question 10. Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform when the new Green Living Grant scheme will be launched? 955 Thank you.
The President: I call on the Minister for Policy and Reform, Mr Harmer.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. 960 The Green Living Grant is a new scheme which will provide a maximum of £6,000 grant assistance, at 50% of the overall cost to the homeowners who want to make their homes more energy efficient and therefore reduce greenhouse gas emissions from people’s homes. Reducing emissions from houses through fossil-fuel heating systems such as natural gas and oil is going to be essential to reach our net-zero targets. We expect the scheme to come to July’s Tynwald for 965 approval.
The President: Supplementary.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President; and thank you, Minister, we are almost there, which 970 is good. In the time taken to actually introduce this, the cost of insulation and other materials have increased dramatically. Will there be any assistance for those people on low incomes? It is potentially going to be the case that these individuals will be locked out of the system because of the delays in bringing these incentives. 975 Thank you.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I can confirm to the Hon. Member, the Energy Efficiency Scheme 2018 administered by DEFA will continue to provide financial assistance to low-income households. The scheme is open to 980 householders and private renters, with the landlord’s consent, that have an annual income of up to £29,000 for the individual or £43,000 for a jointly taxed couple. The grant pays 75% of the cost capped at the maximum claim limit of £1,000 for measures including insulation.
The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge. 985 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I am just wondering if the Minister can confirm for the Green Living Grant, I know you have said the scheme will come forward in July, but is there going to be any expectation for the individuals to actually have to have a specialist look at it first, or can they assume that putting 990 insulation in their property with this grant is going to suffice for the scheme? Thank you, Mr President. ______2360 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Mr Harmer.
The Minister: Thank you, and obviously with the scheme coming in July one of the key parts is 995 there will be an Energy Performance Certificate to check the work that needs to be done and also would provide an indicative cost for each measure, such as loft insulation. That would be free to the person applying for the grant.
The President: Mr Moorhouse. 1000 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I think the Minister just mentioned it: in terms of the scheme’s launch, will prices be suggested in terms of what it would cost to have things like insulation put in the loft? Thank you. 1005 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, yes, Mr President, that is absolutely right. So, as I say, the proposed scheme will provide 100% of the Manx Home Energy audit that will 1010 include what is called an Energy Performance Certificate (EPC). The EPC lists the recommended measures and provides an indicative cost for each measure such as loft insulation.
The President: Ms Edge.
1015 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I wonder if the Minister can advise what sort of funding has been put aside within the budget for the Energy Performance Certificates, and who can carry these out? Thank you, Mr President.
1020 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Obviously, it will be approved contractors. It will be part of the overall scheme. I think the overall budget for the next two years is £7.2 million and it will be depending on the costs of the Energy Performance Certificate. But to be honest it is probably the most important 1025 part of the Green Living Grant. This is the proposal that will go forward to July Tynwald.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Mercer.
1030 Mr Mercer: Thank you, Mr President. Could the Minister tell us, will the scheme be compatible with the concept of ‘just transition’ embedded in the Climate Bill?
The President: Reply, sir. 1035 The Minister: Thank you, yes. I think what I need to stress is, firstly, it is going to be a learning exercise. So ‘just transition’ is really important and also focusing on where it is most effective, but really important is that we learn … If there is anything that we have learnt from looking at other jurisdictions, it is that we 1040 need to learn and gain experiences for a long-term scheme, and as we do that we will adapt. But I think ‘just transition’ is a really important issue, as well.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. ______2361 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 1045 Does the Minister agree with me that there might be generic types of houses and flats in the Isle of Man, so we might not need an individual piece of work in every flat? We could just perhaps have in the Library kits that can be taken out, like the Irish approached it in history. Secondly, does the Minister worry like I do that there might not be sufficient firms to be able to do this assessment and analysis in the Isle of Man, and we might end up with an untendered 1050 process for spending quite a lot of money?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Okay. So, in essence, that is part of the reason why it has taken a bit longer to 1055 get the scheme going, which is because we want to make sure it is fit for purpose, and also not to try and repeat some of the mistakes – in particular working with DfE, UCM, Construction Isle of Man to ensure that the construction sector can be upskilled to deliver the required energy efficiency improvements. Obviously we have consulted with the Climate Change Citizens’ Forum as well about concerns 1060 raised by homeowners that we have reassurance that the work is undertaken by accredited professionals that will deliver energy efficiencies. Obviously we are working with DfE to ensure that they can administer the scheme with the minimum red tape. In many respects it is about upskilling the capacity or creating capacity, where it is limited at the moment, and building that capacity, but also acting as a catalyst to provide what is actually 1065 essential and again, this is going to run for many years.
The President: Two further supplementaries only. First, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 1070 I wonder if the Minister, out of the £7.2 million could he advise how much of that is indicated for the certificate side of the scheme, if he can provide that? If not, obviously, it is coming in July and if he could send that at a later date?
The President: Mr Harmer. 1075 The Minister: Thank you. Obviously we will provide more of those sorts of details, but it is a relatively small part. But I personally think it is a very important part to actually understand what energy work needs to be done as part of (A Member: Hear, hear.) making your house energy efficient. Because it is often 1080 not knowing what the problem is which is half the problem. But, yes, more details will come.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
1085 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. Just in relation to the Minister’s comments there about upskilling the construction industry, would the Minister accept that actually a lot of this money is going to be spent on things which are routinely done by the construction sector anyway – things like installing insulation in people’s homes, for which of course there are a wide array of qualified and experienced professionals on 1090 the Isle of Man? So, really, will he commit to making sure the scheme is not too onerous and too complicated in terms of actually accessing some of this support, when we do have quite a thriving industry out there already that is eager to start providing some of these upgrades and solutions for people?
1095 The President: Thank you. ______2362 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The Minister: Sorry if I was not clear. I mean in upskilling there will be certain areas where – and I am talking air source heat pumps and so forth, perhaps … But actually it is mainly about drawing on what capacity there is already, for example, loft insulation, and being able to create a scheme that is delivered by the contractor and being able to apply through that, so that we can 1100 get good grants. But I suppose for a lot of this information, there will be a full Members’ presentation on it to actually delve into the detail of this. So thank you, Mr President.
11. Reserved accommodation – Reporting on issues debated in January 2021
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
When he will report on the reserved accommodation issues debated in January 2021?
The President: Question 11, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse. 1105 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform when he will report on the reserved accommodation issues debated in January 2021? Thank you. 1110 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for his Question. 1115 The Hon. Member’s motion from January 2021 was to clarify that
That Tynwald is of the opinion that the all-Island review of housing should examine: (1) The sufficiency of the existing first time buyer option, with particular consideration of: the ease of access … for those who satisfy the residency criteria …. eligibility thresholds; payment terms; and increased flexibility … and (2) The feasibility of a second time purchase offering.
The work on the National Housing Strategy will include all of these issues and, subject to the support of the board, I hope to bring an interim update to Tynwald next month. The Department of Infrastructure is currently carrying out a complete review and evaluation of the Shared Equity Purchase Assistance scheme, SEPA, in the present Island context. The review 1120 includes market testing of residential property sales, and market testing with developers and funders to ensure that the scheme provides the most relevant offering for qualified individuals to access first-time ownership. The exercise also incorporates the examination of key data from Economic Affairs regarding house price inflation since the last Shared Equity Purchase Assistance scheme reviews in 2017, 1125 and inflation-adjusted means earnings over the same period. Any adjustments to the existing maximum purchase prices and maximum annual earnings will require revisions in secondary
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legislation. This work is by DoI and will feed into the development of the National Housing Strategy.
1130 The President: Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister for that encouraging update. In the last six months there has been another massive increase in the price of housing. The 1135 Minister has suggested some support that is going to be coming forward in the future. Realistically, how long do these eager homeowners have to wait until they get the opportunity to be supported and to buy the house they are dreaming of? Thank you.
1140 The President: Reply, sir.
The Minister: Thank you. Obviously, I sort of have the same sentiment, I want to get this work done as quickly as possible. But at the same time there is a huge piece of work, with many strands coming together, 1145 and that is the part of the scoping work that has been delivered. Obviously, this review itself – and I cannot give a date now, but I can obviously come back to the Member – but it is part of a huge piece of work and it involves a number of different strands.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Moorhouse. 1150 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Recently the English government launched a first-time house scheme, which meant that first- time owners potentially could get a discount of 50% on new houses. Is this the type of revolutionary scheme that we can expect to see here? 1155 Also, reference has been made to the role of the Infrastructure Minister. Have the Ministers and the relevant officers met regularly to ensure quick progress can actually happen once we get next month’s announcements? Finally, what consultation has taken place to ensure these ideas are actually reflecting the needs of key stakeholders? 1160 Thank you.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you. 1165 Taking the last part first, the role of Infrastructure, yes, they and the officers have very much been involved in the whole of the board’s work. As I said, a lot of this is scoping work. Previously, a lot of this work had not been done, it had fallen between edges, between Departments. So the most important thing for us is that we have a board and we actually now scope that work that needs to be done and start to deliver on it. 1170 I am very sympathetic with the ideas that he has talked about, the half-price ownership. Now, remember there is a scheme that is being proposed in Jurby which is looking at much lower cost- types of housing. So that is one initiative. Also some flexibility has to be looked at, for example, about guaranteeing mortgage deposits and those sorts of things. Those are all a part of that scoping work.
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12. National Housing Strategy – Date for bringing forward
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mrs Corlett) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
When he will bring forward a National Housing Strategy?
1175 The President: Question 12, Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform when he will bring forward a National Housing Strategy? 1180 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for her Question. 1185 Subject to consensus from the Housing Board its intention is to bring an interim report before this Hon. Court in July; as Members will appreciate housing cuts across many policy areas for the Government. The work that has gone into this report as a result of a cross-Government Officer Group, who have worked collaboratively to bring together the necessary scope, which will lay the foundation for an ambitious and future-focused National Housing Strategy that meets the criteria 1190 that the Isle of Man has suitable affordable and accessible housing for all residents. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Mrs Corlett, supplementary.
1195 Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. It is apparent from the Ministerʼs Answer that considerable resource is going to be required for the successful delivery of a National Housing Strategy. Has resource or funding been agreed to achieve this? And, if not, what is the Minister’s plan going forward in order to deliver this much- needed strategy? 1200 The President: Minister.
The Minister: So in essence, I suppose, to be blunt, this has never been done before. It has been done, to be blunt again, on the side of the desk in many different Departments, and that is 1205 what we are changing now. The original motion talked about having an integrated policy in one place. So that is what we have started to do. We have scoped the work that needs to be done. Should there be support, the next step is a business case to Treasury outlining that we need to move forward, because we cannot keep going on as we are. If we do, we will get the same results, we will have splintered policy all over the place and actually nothing will change. 1210 So that is definitely the thrust of the work.
The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Quine.
Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. 1215 Does the Minister agree with me that the situation regarding the ability for most of our younger people to purchase their own house has now reached chronic proportions, and therefore a National Housing Strategy is a matter of urgency? And that such a strategy must be policy-led and not developer-led? Thank you, Mr President. ______2365 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
1220 The Minister: Yes, I could not agree more, and that is the focus of the National Housing Strategy that the Isle of Man has suitable affordable, accessible housing for all residents. The key point there is that it is around the resident, around the person, not around the developers.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. 1225 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister has talked about needing approval of the board. Can the Minister advise, then, that the Council of Ministers has already approved this document that is going to the board, or will it have to go to the Council of Ministers after it has been approved by the board? 1230 The second question is to manage expectations. Did I hear correctly that what we are going to have to debate in July is an interim report? More specifically, will it deal with all of the aspects covered in the terms of reference or have some of those had to be put off for some time? Thirdly, can the Minister just clarify his point that this has not been done before? I accept it is a difficult task, but can the Minister agree with me that until 10 or 15 years ago we used to have 1235 an annual housing conference, for which there was a National Housing Strategy, and that used to be informed by the Housing Condition Survey, for instance, that was done every two or three years?
The President: Minister. 1240 The Minister: Thank you. Certainly I will reflect on any documents that are given to me, but I am not sure we have ever had anything that has really been about pulling those policies. I am not talking about local authority policies, I am talking about economic policies. I am talking about health and social care, about vulnerable people, about homelessness. I do not recall that coming 1245 together, not in this respect. But I need to be clear, and just to manage expectations the point about this is the motion is very much about making sure that policy was in one place. That has been the first task, to put the policy into one place, to then scope the work that needs to be done. Obviously at the moment it needs to go to the board and then to the Council of Ministers. That is the route. I mean, obviously, 1250 over time that may change, but that is the route, it will go first to the board and then to the Council of Ministers. Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse. 1255 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. There is a lot of high-level stuff occurring here but, as part of the current process, has consultation taken place with local people to capture their individual thoughts and opinions – and specifically needs – in areas such as the first-time buyer accommodation? 1260 Thank you.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you. 1265 I think, again, this is the beginning of the journey, this is not the end of the journey, so there will be lots of consultation going forward. I know there has been in the past but just to be clear this is about scoping all the work that needs to be done, then actually putting a business case together to say crack on with this work. That it is not a short-term fix. Housing is not something that one can do in a few weeks. It will take time. 1270 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Corlett. ______2366 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister has stated that there is an interim report due in July, could he tell us what the timeframe is for delivery of the strategy itself? 1275 The President: Minister.
The Minister: So the interim report, and again this is going to the board, so it will define what the overall vision of the overall strategy is, but what it will do is a scoping exercise and it will have 1280 various elements within that scoping exercise and when those will be delivered. So that would be part of the interim update, as I would say.
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
13. Cars running in school car parks – DESC policy towards parents
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Henderson, to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What his Department’s policy is towards parents who leave car engines running in school car parks before or after transporting children to or from school?
The President: We turn now to Question 13, Hon. Member of Council, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 1285 Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Shirveishagh what his Department’s policy is towards parents who leave car engines running at school car parks before or after transporting children to or from school?
The President: I call on the Minister for Education, Dr Allinson. 1290 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Hon. Member of Council for this subsequent Question. I will try not to repeat anything that the Minister for Infrastructure has already said, because obviously he is asking about engines running within the school grounds rather than the highway, and we do not 1295 actually have a departmental policy on this. I think he raises a very important point because, above and beyond any aspects of climate change, there is increasing evidence that particulates released by running cars are seriously affecting young people’s health, particularly those with respiratory problems such as asthma. So this is something that needs to be addressed. In his Question, he particularly talks about dropping off children to school. In my experience, 1300 it tends to be more of an issue when people are picking children up from school, particularly in the winter months when they are running their car for heating purposes. That is often on a lay-by or on the main road outside a school rather than in a car park itself, but it is certainly something that I think we need to address. A lot of this is obviously about education, both in terms of children and parents, but also 1305 schools in terms of the risks involved with pollution and the way it can affect young lungs. Certainly I would not want to put teachers in the responsibility of having to police a system, but I am quite happy to work with the Minister for Infrastructure to look at appropriate signage. We already have quite a bit of education going on in schools about climate change itself, but obviously there is that extra education for parents in terms of the risks – they may be putting ______2367 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
1310 other children at risk, or their own children. We have had similar discussions about smoking within cars and the effects that can have. Certainly in terms of my Department, we do support the Government’s Active Travel Strategy and, ideally, we would have fewer cars going to and from schools, and people would either be walking, cycling or taking public transport to schools. That would alleviate some of the problems. 1315 But also certainly in terms of the Department’s strategy, which is going to be released in the near future, we will be concentrating on education in terms of climate change and the need to behave responsibly, both in terms of our planet, but also our local community. Thank you, Mr President.
1320 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Henderson.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Shirveishagh for his positive response to this, but would he further agree that this is a very serious issue given we are in a climate emergency and that our education system should 1325 be setting the standard here? Would he agree to have a policy generated throughout all the education establishments as quickly as possible with regard to advisory notes to anyone, including contractors on site as well, who I have personally had to ask to turn their own engines off? But also the issue, is he aware, is in summer time as well, where parents will sit in their car for anything up to 15 or 20 minutes with the engine idling. They come early and wait for their children 1330 to come out. We need to address this and certainly would he agree most of the schools, if not all, use the email system with school newsletters and bulletins and so on, and it would be pretty easy to effect a general policy and education programme?
1335 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I cannot disagree with the Hon. Member of Council about this. As I said, we are talking about education and that goes beyond schools, beyond contractors to all people using cars or motor 1340 vehicles that they are responsible in terms of leaving their engines running anywhere, but particularly where there are young people gathering. Certainly I am quite happy to take that forward. Thank you.
1345 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I wonder if the Minister would build on Mr Henderson’s suggestion of having a policy to consider promotion around the issue of people leaving their cars idling around schools, perhaps 1350 noting some of the promotional campaigns in the UK that have gone on, that just simply state ‘Vehicle exhaust is toxic’ and to have this put out there in quite a visual way for drivers and for parents. Would he further agree that it is quite similar to active travel in that all of this needs to have meaning on the ground and be able to be seen for people to react to? 1355 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Dr Allinson.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1360 Absolutely, I completely agree with the Hon. Member of Council. This has to be relevant and people have to appreciate the benefits it will bring as well. This is not a punitive action, this is to ______2368 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
protect our community, whether that be children going to school, the parents themselves, or members of staff who have to breathe these noxious fumes in. Certainly, I give a commitment to go to the Education Council, which represents the board of governors of all schools, and highlight 1365 this and see if we can get something right across the school environment, both primary and secondary, and other childcare sectors. But again this is not something that is just isolated to schools, I think there are lots of other occasions and environments where people have to be aware of the damages of pollution, particularly where you do not have a lot of ventilation and you have a lot of air moving. We know 1370 from studies in built-up areas, particularly Manchester and London, the effects this can have on people of all ages who have respiratory problems. But, more than that, the risk it has of causing chronic respiratory problems in very young lungs. Thank you, Mr President.
1375 The President: Final supplementary, Hon. Member, Mrs Sharpe.
Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister whether he will commit to his Department running a campaign via schools to highlight to children and their parents, the health and environmental damage 1380 caused by leaving engines running? Thank you.
The President: Minister.
1385 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President, and again thank you for the very valid comment. I think, hopefully, the debates we have had this morning will raise the profile of this issue. We have the press covering it; and obviously there are concerns right across the spectrum in terms of motorists who leave their cars running. It is not necessary, it really is not necessary in this day and age to do that. It has long-term harms, both in terms of our community and our environment. 1390 I am quite happy, as I said to the previous speaker, that I will take this to the Education Council. We will look at resources that are available and see if we can get something across all schools in the near future. Thank you.
14. Distance learning and UK study – Income thresholds for support
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What the income thresholds are, above which a person will be assessed as ineligible for support for (a) distance learning and (b) study in the UK?
The President: Question 14, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse. 1395 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture what the income thresholds are, above which a person will be assessed as ineligible for support for (a) distance learning and (b) study in the United Kingdom. 1400 Thank you.
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The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Thank you, Mr President, and I 1405 would like to thank the Hon. Member for his Question. The answers are included in the Education (Student Awards) Regulations 2019. The threshold for contributors’ income for distance learning is currently set at £45,000. An individual with assessed income above this amount will not be eligible for support. This will provide tuition fee support of up to £6,000. Maintenance grants at the moment are not provided for distance 1410 learning. For those who study in universities in London, Oxford or Cambridge the current threshold above which a person will become ineligible for support is £64,796. This will provide a maintenance grant of up to £8,000. For those studying elsewhere in the UK the current threshold above which a person will be assessed as ineligible for support is £61,795. This will provide a 1415 maintenance grant of up to £7,500. Currently in terms of tuition fees where there is a household with one student and the contributors’ income is above £131,285 the student is not eligible for support; this rises to £169,856 where the household has two students. Thank you, Mr President. 1420 The President: Supplementary, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you for that data. I was slightly concerned I misread it. 1425 Given that COVID has altered student perceptions of distance learning, will there be any review of the current imbalance in available support? Thank you.
The President: Minister. 1430 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. Again, I would like to thank the Hon. Member for this. I think historically young people have mostly attended university rather than use a distance learning route. However, he is quite right that the recent pandemic, including border restrictions, 1435 have shown an increased consideration for distance learning pathways. Later in this session I seek to move my amendment to the Student Awards Regulations, which seeks to increase the maximum tuition grant for distance learning. However, we also need, on the background of these changes in education, to look again at how we allow people to study, because the days where people would have to go across for that and study for three years for a degree, I 1440 think are past; we need to give many more options. So I am happy to say that we have just opened a six-week public consultation to determine key policy principles for the students awards system going forward. It would be my ambition that those students who want to stay on Island and do a distance course would be treated and would be supported in the same way as if they went across; and certainly with that we can create much more variety of courses people can take part in, at the 1445 same time as making sure that our graduates are not just dragged back, but they are kept here in the first place. I am also really keen and committed to increasing the range of courses available at UCM, not only degree courses but the range of vocational training to give people a real option of choice in terms of upskilling and learning. 1450 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.
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Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 1455 I wonder if the Minister could just clarify with regard to, obviously I know he is very keen to extend distance learning, but with regard to a student who stays on the Island doing distance learning, that if they do a Saturday job, their contribution is taken as part of the income; is the Minister completely reviewing that as well to make sure it is a level playing field? Thank you, Mr President. 1460 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to thank the Hon. Member because there are disparities in the current system. For 1465 instance, if a student gets a bursary from a charity that is then classed as their income and taken off the grant they get. I personally think that penalises some of our students who are actually quite imaginative in terms of getting funding from other sources, particularly if they have got increased living costs or increased costs because of the course they are doing. So I absolutely agree with her that all these things should be part of the overall review, and it 1470 is my intention to be able to get new regulations brought back to this Court later on in the year for Tynwald approval. Thank you.
15. Youth issues and advocacy – DESC Minister’s action to promote
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What action he has taken to promote youth issues and advocacy?
The President: Question 15, Mr Speaker.
1475 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture what action he has taken to promote youth issues and advocacy?
The President: Minister to reply.
1480 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Hon. Speaker for his wide-ranging Question. I sit on the Council of Ministers’ Social Policy and Children’s Committee, along with the Minister for Policy and Reform, the Treasury Minister, Minister for Health and Social Care, Minister for Infrastructure and the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs. This provides a forum to discuss a 1485 range of issues affecting children and young people and work with a variety of agencies to address them. In terms of wider participation, the Department has worked closely with the Crown and Elections team within the Cabinet Office to develop a suite of information, courses and material aimed at encouraging youth advocacy for local issues and issues which are pertinent to the Island’s 1490 young people. The Island’s future guide is targeted at 16- to 21-year-olds and has been circulated through secondary schools, and it is available on both the Government and local media website. The guide sets out the Island’s rich and diverse history of political participation, provides information on the electoral system and constituency make-up and provides links with young people to register to vote. To accompany this guide there is an online course available through 1495 the Department’s learning platform. This is open to all Island students from Year 10 to Year 13. ______2371 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Again, the course helps students to understand Isle of Man politics, involves a short assessment and signposts to electoral registration. Aside from resources produced for this election year, there is: an Island politics scheme for learning targeted at Year 9 to 10 pupils, developed in conjunction with the Clerk of Tynwald’s 1500 Office; the One World Centre Charity Challenge opportunities for Year 12 students; and of course, the annual sitting of Junior Tynwald in July. At local authority level, the Department’s Youth Service regularly engage young people in the community through its 24 youth clubs at various locations across the Island. These youth clubs are based in the community and respond to demand for services from young people and adults. Most 1505 locations offer school holiday provision, some after-school provision and community access to facilities during the day. Youth Service engagement with local authorities includes collaboration to support issues faced by young people in communities and, where appropriate, youth clubs work with local authorities on projects that are of interest to young people. Thank you, Mr President. 1510 The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. Can I firstly thank the Minister for his backhanded compliment about the wide-ranging 1515 Question, but it has been a really useful Answer, so thank you very much. In terms of the work that is undertaken with youth centres, can he talk a bit more about how that works in relation to local authorities? I was not really sure about how that works in practice. Can he also advise perhaps what surveys have either been undertaken or planned to be undertaken to assess what, shall we say, the satisfaction is of the young people themselves in 1520 terms of engagement with the issues and whether he encourages fora such as school councils to engage with issues that are affecting them? There are a lot of ways of engaging with young people and asking them to set the agenda. It is a matter of whether we are really making the best of the opportunities that are presented to us, so if I could ask that.
1525 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. I will try to keep my comments short, because the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew has a motion later on in this sitting which touches on a lot of these issues about 1530 participation, about assessing need and how to get people’s involvement. But to answer his specific questions, the Youth Service attends all level one meetings across the Island, which are those chaired by the Police with a focus on crime and safety. The meetings also cover a broad range of community issues, opportunities and information sharing. There have been various surveys in the past. The last youth survey was in 2018, which was trying to assess 1535 what people wanted for their local communities. Obviously that goes slightly broader than the question in terms of my Department. But if I can reassure him that actually I am really quite committed to opening up communications with young people directly themselves. Obviously, we do have various structures; many secondary schools have co-opted students onto their board of governors and 1540 take submissions from the student council, but I think we need to go a little bit beyond that. Only yesterday, I met with all the head boys and head girls of our secondary schools to discuss this very issue. They approached me earlier on in the year because there was uncertainty at the time about the cancellation of exams, and obviously they were caught in that and had some very valid comments about their own feelings and what they wanted out of the Department in terms 1545 of messaging. When I met with them – and I must admit they are an absolute tribute to our community – they had a number of very interesting comments. They highlighted, as you did, the lack of ______2372 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
communication between students and Government Departments, that often it is clunky and messages were not getting heard. So I made a commitment of setting up initially a meeting with 1550 all the representatives of sixth forms once a term trying to get that conversation going, both in terms of them feeding into the Department their wishes and needs, but also the Department using them to decide policy, decide strategy and see whether it resonated with them. They were also talking a lot about school opportunities, particularly about being able to sit certain subjects when there were small classes and some of the problems with collaborative ways 1555 of learning where people had to go from one school to another by bus, often over long distances, and certainly from the Speakerʼs own constituency, they have to travel quite extensively to access courses; and how we could use newer technologies to perhaps bridge that divide. One of their other concerns was mental health and they gave very clear –
1560 The President: Hon. Member, I really do feel this is a more extensive reply to a supplementary question than is strictly necessary.
The Minister: I beg your pardon, Mr President. I am committed to engage with young people and take on board their opinions. Thank you.
16. Updated animal welfare legislation – Date to be brought to Tynwald
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
When he intends to bring updated animal welfare legislation to Tynwald?
1565 The President: We turn now to Question 16, Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture when he intends to bring updated animal welfare legislation to Tynwald? 1570 The President: Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture, Mr Boot, please.
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. As Members will be aware, my Department brought a proposed Bill addressing companion 1575 animals’ welfare to the other place recently but was unsuccessful in moving that legislation at that time. Because of this there is no time to introduce a further Bill prior to the recess and dissolution of Tynwald for the up-and-coming General Election. What I can advise is that it is proposed that a more comprehensive Animal Welfare Bill will be drafted and consulted upon, and during the next parliamentary session. It should be noted, 1580 however, that policy changes proposed in the United Kingdom in relation to kept animals and animals abroad, which my Department has been included in discussions on, will require implementation of new legislation in the Island to ensure facilitation of unfettered access for trading purposes in respect of animal welfare and movements. Whilst it would have been more convenient to introduce these proposed changes via a new 1585 Animal Welfare Bill, the Department has the necessary powers to align using secondary legislation to progress these initiatives, which will ensure the Island meets the same high standards as the UK as well as closing any back door to illegal import. It is noted that this facilitation through
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application of any required legislation under the provisions of the European Union and Trade Act 2019 and the Animal Health Act 1996. 1590 I must say that I warmly welcome the proposed policies on animal welfare provisions being consulted on at present, or in train in the UK Parliament, as they will improve the lot of both companion animals and farmed animals alike, taking the UK, and subsequently this Island, into a new, more robust and ground-breaking animal welfare provision.
1595 The President: Mr Hooper, supplementary.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I did not ask the Minister when he was going to bring a new Welfare Bill back; I asked when he was going to bring legislation to Tynwald. The Minister himself has just admitted he has the 1600 necessary powers already to align us with the UK using secondary legislation. So my question to the Minister is why is he not using those powers to bring the necessary animal welfare legislation to Tynwald? Why is he insisting on still waiting to bring another Bill through which we have already established, through his own Answer this morning, is totally unnecessary?
1605 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It was a great shame that the original Bill was not taken up in the other place, but we are where we are. However, the clue in the European Union and Trade Act 2019 is European Union and Trade 1610 Act 2019, and we were advised that the animal welfare companion animal Bill that we were proposing would be more appropriately dealt with by an Animal Welfare Act specifically around companion animals. The measures that I am talking about here are to do with the continuation of trade and closing any back doors through the EU, through the Isle of Man, for the movement of livestock, for 1615 instance, and trading in pets etc.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 1620 Would the Minister like to take this as an opportunity to apologise to all of those people who care about animal welfare for not having taken forward the pre-legislative committee work that was established in the administration before this one throughout this administration, and secondly, for handling the legislation so badly, such that the House of Keys had to vote it down, rather than even adjourning the debate so that it could come back with clarity from the Minister 1625 about the actual facts behind the progress that had not actually been made?
Mr Robertshaw: Hear, hear.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1630 I was very keen to progress the legislation and it was Hon. Members that decided to vote down the Bill on its Second Reading, and it is a very sad situation that we found ourselves in. I think in retrospect there was some, what we might call, buyers’ regret. But that is the situation. I do not apologise for bringing the legislation forward and I do not think it was handled badly. One of the comments that was made was that the consultation had not been published. Well, we had over a 1635 thousand consultation responses that the officers were working through and in fact three days later, certainly before another Reading of the Bill, or the clauses, that consultation was and would have been available, and I regret the fact that it did not progress.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Hooper. ______2374 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
1640 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. The Minister has made some references there to the European Union and Trade Act 2019. I am sure the Minister is aware that parts of that Act replaced the old European Communities Act that was used, not just for aligning us with EU law, but also aligning us with UK legislation; no real reference in that to trade, but these provisions were there and were previously used – I am sure 1645 the Minister is aware – to bring a number of animal welfare pieces through Tynwald. The Animal Health (Notification and Slaughter) Regulations, for example, brought through using the European Communities Act. The European Union and Trade Act he refers to replaced that Act, there are clauses in there that very specifically give the Department the powers to apply any UK legislation in relation to 1650 animal welfare which make no reference whatsoever to the European Union, to Brexit, to the withdrawal agreement, to trade. There are separate sections in the Act that deal with those particular issues, but there is a very specific section which is designed, as far as I can tell and as far as I recall from the reading of this Act, this was designed to allow the Department to act flexibly and to continue to apply UK law where it was considered appropriate. 1655 So will the Minister go back to his Department and actually challenge them when they are telling him that you cannot use the law to do the thing the law specifically says you are allowed to do?
The President: Minister. 1660 The Minister: I thank the Hon. Member for his observations with respect to the European Union and Trade Act 2019. As I said in the original Answer, or the supplementary, the Act, the clue is in the word ‘Trade’ and we were advised that domestic companion animal legislation, welfare legislation, would be more appropriately dealt with by a specific Bill related to the Isle of Man and 1665 then looking at UK legislation, not EU legislation, in terms of animal welfare. The proposals at present will deal with kept animals, a ban on livestock movements for slaughter to the EU and beyond. That will not affect the movement of livestock for breeding purposes or the movement of livestock from the UK to the Island or vice versa, and the proposed legislation will put measures in place to control the commercial movement of pets and will serve 1670 to end the practice of puppy smuggling and low welfare pet imports. But I take what the Member said on board and I would be very happy for him to come to the Department and speak to the legislative team as to the direction of travel that the Department is taking.
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
17. Cancer screening programmes – Discussions with Manx Care
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What discussions have taken place with Manx Care on cancer screening programmes?
The President: Question 17, Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 1675 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what discussions have taken place with Manx Care on cancer screening programmes?
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1680 The President: The Minister for Health and Social Care, Mr Ashford.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. As the Hon. Member rightly puts in the Question, Manx Care is responsible for the delivery of screening programmes with the commissioning of such a collaboration between the DHSC and 1685 Cabinet Office, and the Director of Public Health. Initial discussions have already taken place between all three parties with strategic and operational working groups now to be established to agree the commissioning and delivery of these key programmes. This governance will also oversee a number of public health programmes, such as vaccination and immunisation, and will follow a similar principle to the current COVID vaccination programme governance, which has been 1690 successfully undertaken on the Island. The work will begin by reviewing the outputs of the recent internal audit which was around breast screening, and follow-up action has been taken by completing a gap analysis. This has identified the implementation programme needed and investment in resource, which will be part of the DHSC Treasury process for 2022. 1695 As the implementation programme is approved it is the intention of DHSC to formalise the delivery through the Manx Care mandate, starting with the 2022-23 mandate and will be monitored through the mandate assurance processes that are now established. Thank you, Mr President.
1700 The President: Ms Edge, supplementary.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I wonder if the Minister would circulate the recent audit to Hon. Members, if that is possible? The concern, obviously, you have said that the changes and the mandate will not come into 1705 place till 2022-23. Will the Minister provide assurance today that there will be no change in the periods of time between screening coming forward, that it will still be two years on the Island for breast, for example, rather than three; and obviously the bowel screening as well, that there will be no changes on that to mirror the UK systems? Thank you, Mr President. 1710 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am certainly not aware of any proposals to change the time periods. In fact it would be news to me if there are. Certainly at the moment I have not 1715 become aware of any of that. And in relation to the audit, I will go away and see if we can get it circulated, Mr President.
18. Corrin Home – Work and engagement since May Tynwald
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
Further to the Tynwald Resolution of May 2021 in relation to the Corrin Home, what work and engagement have been carried out; and if he will make a statement?
The President: Question 18, Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. ______2376 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
1720 I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care, further to the Tynwald Resolution of May 2021 in relation to the Corrin Home, what work and engagement has been carried out; and if he will make a statement?
The President: I call on the Minister to reply. 1725 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. Further to the motion unanimously agreed by Tynwald on 18th May 2021, the DHSC have met with the directors and trustees of the Corrin Memorial Home on a weekly basis. These meetings first commenced actually prior to the motion on 5th May following the surrender of the licence. 1730 Meetings with the board have focused on the health, safety and welfare of residents; the need for open and transparent information sharing, including the financial position of the group of companies; operational management and safe staffing; suitable and sufficient insurance; and short-, medium- and longer-term options for the future of the residential facilities in the area. Outcomes of these discussions were reported to the Council of Ministers on 3rd and 10th June 1735 2021, with verbal updates provided earlier. Key actions undertaken since its consideration of the motion include the assessments of residents to ensure suitable placements can be found, a review of the financial accounts provided, provision of recruitment agency details to assist with the management and staffing of the home, provision of residential vacancies across the Island, commitment by DHSC to consider a business 1740 case for interim funding as soon as all financial information had been made available from the providers, weekly supportive visits by the Registration and Inspection team, drafting of joint communications on behalf of the DHSC and the Corrin Home, and liaison with Manx Care to support assessment and, if necessary, relocation of residents. Hon. Members will be aware, Mr President, that the directors and trustees of the Corrin 1745 Memorial Home are clear that the operating company is not financially viable and will be stepping down as directors at the end of July. They have also advised there are increasing challenges in the operation of the facility. DHSC therefore has been forced to conclude that in protecting the safety and wellbeing of residents, there is an urgent need to complete all assessments of needs and transfer residents to other facilities. This work has already begun, running in tandem with the 1750 discussions with the directors, and will now, in light of the financial position of the home, need to be accelerated during this week by Manx Care. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Supplementary, Mrs Lord-Brennan. 1755 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. From the perspective of the families, the assessments in connection with R and I and social workers did not really seem to stop or change further to the resolution of Tynwald and the indication from the directors that they had said at a public meeting that they would be happy to 1760 collaborate. So on what basis were R and I and the social workers working on and did that change since there had initially been a clear will on both sides? A lot of the problems have come from the fact that it has been very stressful for families, and for the residents, to interact with social workers and R and I on the basis that they would be moved imminently. In fact, letters were delivered from R and I yesterday directly to the residents of the home without the families even knowing. 1765 So I would like to know what DHSC had instructed or told R and I and the social workers. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Minister to reply.
1770 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President.
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The whole situation, to be perfectly frank from my point of view, is deeply regrettable because we wanted to work with the home to try and find a solution, but the directors have made absolutely clear that they will not operate past 31st July, even if financial support is provided; they would not be willing to look at that. 1775 In terms of the assessments, DHSC has a statutory duty to ensure that the residents are in a safe environment and relocated, if necessary. By undertaking the assessments that does not mean a move is definitely going to take place, but it was important, particularly when we did not have, at that stage, clear indications of the financial position of the home that those assessments continued so that if, for whatever reason, we did need to move the residents, they were in place. 1780 It would have been absolutely negligent of DHSC to have sat on our hands, speaking with the trustees, without having those assessments, because everyone’s needs are individual and we have to remember at the base of this is those residents. What would have been absolutely catastrophic is if we had stopped the assessments, we now suddenly, after the finances had been shared with the Department, had found out the current situation, and that process had not been ongoing. We 1785 would have been starting from scratch and we would have potentially been putting those residents to detriment as well, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, Mr Harmer.
1790 Mr Harmer: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously a devastating blow and I just would like to ask the Minister has absolutely everything been done to keep the home open for what Tynwald said, for six months, and will the residents all have … are they the centre of attention or will they have somewhere to go? Thirdly, about the commitment to the future for what is needed in the west as it is needed elsewhere. 1795 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. In line with the Tynwald motion, which I fully supported, as did everyone else in this Hon. Court, 1800 we have tried to work with the directors to ensure a minimum of six months’ notice. The directors have made absolutely abundantly clear that even with financial support they will not operate past 31st July. They also threw up a new problem for us, which I think was on 1st June, when they actually advised that their insurance for the building and the operation runs out on 19th July, something that they had not previously advised us, which we found out at that point, and that the 1805 insurer is not willing to extend the insurance. As DHSC, we have asked if they would give permission for us to speak to the insurer directly. That permission has not yet been given. We have also of course, as Hon. Members will know, been pursuing their financial information. Financial information was provided in relation to the Corrin Holdings, Corrin Memorial Home and then finally on 4th June they provided cash flows, but I believe those cash flows were incomplete 1810 with no balance sheet provision provided and no cash flows were provided for the holding company. But the issue around that, Mr President, is that the trustees and the directors have made clear that we cannot share that financial information wider. For instance, I myself as Minister have not seen it. They would only allow senior officers from DHSC and Treasury to see it. They are not willing even for it to be shared with the Treasury board. 1815 So that is the position we are currently in, but we have tried everything we can to work with them. We have been meeting with them weekly and, like I say, I think it is an exceptionally regrettable situation, because whichever way we look at it, this boils down to the fact these are elderly people on the ground. (Two Members: Hear, hear.) This is somewhere where it has been their home (A Member: Hear, hear.) and to be trying to move them at this stage of life, personally, 1820 if there is a solution out there I would grab it with both hands. I want to praise the working group as well that has been working exceptionally hard behind the scenes to try and engage with the home to get a solution, and obviously if any solution is still ______2378 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
forthcoming, even at this stage, DHSC will look at it, but we have a statutory duty as the Department to ensure the welfare of those residents and that statutory duty now needs to kick in 1825 that we are aware of the perilous state that the home is in.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quine.
Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for his Answer and the evident 1830 sincerity in which he has tried to address this issue. Could the Minister confirm that whilst the Corrin Home is regrettably closing, with all the sad ramifications which we have just heard of, if he could confirm that the directors of the company will be following due process with regard to the winding up of the company? Thank you, Mr President. 1835 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously directors have a due process they have to follow, and that is laid out in law, what 1840 their process they have to follow is, and they will need to do so, Mr President. In relation to the site as well, we will be looking still to engage, because I personally, and I know DHSC feels the same, as we stated in the Tynwald motion, believe that is a key parcel of land for the delivery of services in the west and we will continue to engage with the directors and the trustees who ultimately hold that piece of land to see what can be done for the future. 1845 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Department really regret this closure, given that it has known about the issues that 1850 have been at Corrin Memorial Home since at least 2017-18? Secondly, was the requirement for all financial information actually just a trap that was set so that a solution could not be put in place? Thirdly, does the Minister agree with me that the standards this time round are lower than they were in 2013, because Mr Robertshaw promised Tynwald Court two years’ notice and two 1855 years’ transition, Tynwald Court required six months’ transition, and in the end it is a matter of weeks?
The President: Minister.
1860 The Minister: I am sorry, Mr President, I think the Hon. Member for Douglas Central is living in an alternative time zone, I really do. What an absolute pile of nonsense. DHSC has been determined to try and work with the directors to find a solution to this. The financial provision is not some kind of trap. It is us trying to work with them, Mr President. In fact it is DHSC realistically going above and beyond what we actually are required to do under regulations, to try and help 1865 find a solution and support the home. It is not any form of trap, Mr President, and certainly it is not to DHSC’s benefit or I would suggest anyone’s benefit for this home to actually close. We want to do everything possible to try and keep it open. So we have been working and engaging and, Mr President, to be perfectly honest, I do not recognise the comments of the Hon. Member for Douglas Central whatsoever. 1870 The President: Mr Speaker.
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The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President, and I would like to thank the Minister for keeping Hon. Members up to date with this, because there has been an awful lot of interest in it from 1875 within the Court. From reading the press release and the letter that went out I think yesterday, there are three main reasons that this has not been able to be achieved: firstly, it was about financial support, the second was about insurance, and the third is about the willingness of the directors to continue. They seem to be the three emergent themes. However, I am not sure what discussions and what 1880 consideration there has been to Government stepping in and taking it over, because obviously there is finances available within Government to do that, Government of course does have insurance which would cover care homes and nursing homes and the like, and obviously the governance arrangements would be different and would remove the issue about the directors. So would the Minister be able to perhaps clarify the reason why that has not been pursued 1885 and what has prevented that? And also, in regard to the sharing of information, is that something that has been at the behest of the directors and is the taking over of the service by Government also something that has been prevented at the behest of the directors? Thank you.
1890 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. In relation to that DHSC does not have powers to step in and just take it over. That would need to be done with the permission of the holding company and no such permission has been 1895 forthcoming. The directors have made clear that it is not a financially viable operation and they will be going at the end of the month. There has been nothing forthcoming that they would be happy for DHSC to take over.
The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 1900 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I just wonder, everybody keeps talking about the land and there is a purpose for it. Is that the sole intention, not the people that are living in a home at the moment? What agreements have been put in place with regard to that? I do have concerns. And I am really concerned that the will 1905 of Tynwald is not being followed and we have these elderly people at the end of a situation that perhaps Government could have helped out for that six-month period.
The President: Minister to reply.
1910 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The will of Tynwald has been followed. The will of Tynwald as expressed in the motion was for us to try and work with the directors to try and deliver a minimum six-month period. We have tried to work with the directors, we have tried to engage with the directors, but at the end of the day the home is not owned by us. The land, the home itself, is held by a private entity. The 1915 directors of that private entity have made absolutely abundantly clear that even with financial support they are not willing to go past 31st July and we cannot dictate to a private entity what they do with their land and their holding. So like I say, it is deeply regrettable and it is also regrettable that we were not informed until the start of this month that the insurance runs out on 19th July. Every conversation that had been 1920 had prior to that was around this 31st July date and that has added pressure to this. As I say, we have got to remember, and the Hon. Member for Onchan is absolutely right, at the basis of this there are people. There are elderly people whose home this is, and that is why we have been continuously trying to engage with the directors to try and find a solution. I know the working group has been working hard as well to try and get to a solution, but ultimately DHSC ______2380 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
1925 does have statutory duties which have now had to kick in because we are aware of the full extent of the situation. In terms of the land it was part of the Tynwald motion, quite rightly, that we should continue negotiations around the land. We are trying to do that, but certainly no agreements to date have been reached. 1930 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. On the basis that there will be continued interest of the Corrin Home, the Corrin charities, for 1935 social care in the west, and that I can tell Hon. Members that there is continued interest from the community in terms of what could happen next – accepting the fact that the directors do not wish to continue, what then would the Minister say to any other proposals coming forward? I understand the families are still in touch with his Department. Is there any other way forward that might help here? Acknowledging that the directors have indicated that they are not able to 1940 continue, what prospects are there at this stage? Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Minister.
1945 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I have actually been speaking to a couple of those who have been on the working group this morning actually, prior to this sitting. They will obviously need to engage with the directors because DHSC does not own the land, we do not own the operation of it, but if a way can be found to work forward by the current directors working with the working group where it makes it 1950 financially viable for the home to operate, then yes, most certainly, even at this late stage, DHSC will engage and DHSC will try and see what accommodation can be come to. But they have to engage the working group with the directors, because ultimately they are the responsible people for the home.
1955 The President: Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, Mr Boot.
Mr Boot: Thank you, Mr President. It is indeed a sad day for Peel and also for the residents, but what I was going to ask to a certain extent has been covered by the Minister. I was going to seek reassurance that we did not lose 1960 sight of the fact that the motion included provision in the west and we have an opportunity here, with the site that may be available at low or little cost, and I would seek reassurance that the Department will continue to pursue provision in the west on this site or alternative sites if this site is not available. Thank you. 1965 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Most definitely, Mr President. The Corrin site has been an absolutely fundamental driver in the integrated care pilot that we have been running out in the west, which 1970 is the future shape of our health services. We were discussing in relation to the land long before the Tynwald motion, because as soon as it came out that there were issues that was one of the engagement processes that DHSC had. I am more than happy to commit here on the floor of the Hon. Court that in relation to engagement around the land, regardless of what happens in other circumstances, that will continue as per the Tynwald motion. 1975 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. ______2381 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Minister regret that one of the three 20th century charitable activities providing residential homes is apparently ceasing to be, and what does the Minister expect will be on that 1980 site in the future? Will it be a private home, or will it be a state-funded home? Secondly, does the Minister agree that the availability of space at Southlands and the fact that we have now lost Abbey … provision down in the south and this provision in Peel that it looks like the public sector and the £25 million or so of investment by the public sector in residential and nursing homes is actually beginning to crowd out the charitable sector and the private sector. 1985 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. As I have said throughout, I regret absolutely that a home that I personally believe is an 1990 absolutely pivotal home in delivery of care in the Island looks like it is to close. In relation to the land, Mr President, obviously it is not our land at the moment. We need to be very careful about saying what potential future provision might be there. We have got to get negotiations with the directors and trustees over whether they are even willing to engage with us around that land yet. That has not been confirmed, despite the fact we have actually gone forward 1995 to them. In terms of availability of space, the Hon. Member will know from his days as Minister for Policy and Reform when we sat on the committees together that looked at the provision of nursing care into the future, there is that issue coming up around ensuring that we have adequate future provision and this piece of land, from my personal point of view, Mr President, is an absolutely 2000 key strategic piece of land to be feeding into that. But we have to be absolutely clear that we do not have the land at the moment. The land is owned privately by the trust, is my belief, and I think it is absolutely important that we engage and get that resolved before we start coming up with various different schemes.
2005 The President: Final supplementary, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. It seems that there has been a change from both the DHSC and the directors and trustees saying that they will do everything they can to then reiterating the fact that nothing can be done. 2010 My question is what is going on with the land and the building, and where is the recognition that the point was that it could be devastating for the people to be moved from that home, and that was essentially the spirit of the resolution that was passed by this Court? So any information on those points I would be very grateful to hear and I think others would too. 2015 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2020 If I may take the Hon. Member of Council’s last point first, I fully agree with her: it is devastating that people will have to move, particularly at that stage in life, and that was the whole purpose of the Tynwald resolution. That was the will that the whole of this Hon. Court got behind. That is why we have been meeting with the directors weekly to try and actually come to a conclusion. That is why we have been asking for the financial information to be shared, so that we could actually see 2025 what the final position was of the home. As I stated, in terms of the financial information, the full set of financial information was finally shared on 4th June but there is I believe still cash flows that are incomplete with no balance sheet provision provided and that we have still not had cash flows, I believe, from the holding company, just what the directors have said is around that and they are ______2382 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
not willing for the financial information to be shared with any political Members, including myself 2030 or the Treasury board, in fact. In terms of the land, as I have said, that is a strategic, key piece of land. It is important, as we move forward that regardless of anything else we discuss to try and secure that land for the future of the west and for the future provision of care in the Island as a whole. But we have tried everything within DHSC. We have tried to engage with the directors, but the directors have been 2035 absolutely firm they will not go past the 31st, their insurance runs out on the 19th, which emerged late in the day as well, but I know that the working group is still wanting to engage. As I said, I have spoken to several members of the working group this morning before I came into this sitting and if a solution can be found by the working group working together with the directors, then that is something I personally, Mr President, would absolutely welcome.
19. Medicinal cannabis – Progress made
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What progress has been made with prescribing medicinal cannabis; and if he will make a statement?
2040 The President: Question 19, Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what progress has been made with prescribing medicinal cannabis; and if he will make a statement? 2045 The President: I call on the Minister to reply.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. The position on the prescribing of medicinal cannabis products to patients on the Isle of Man 2050 remains that DHSC and Manx Care continue to actively look to support the funding or prescribing of these products. As reported to Tynwald in November 2020 and March 2021, the current position of non- funding remains under review and is considered on a regular basis. The DHSC and Manx Care clinicians continue to monitor and review all research that is published in this area. It should be 2055 noted that the majority of the cannabis-based medicinal products do not hold a marketing authorisation from the MHRA and are considered unlicensed products and therefore the governance around these products must be carefully considered in order to prioritise patient safety. Members will also have noted previously that there is also a need for a prescriber to be on the 2060 General Medical Council Specialist Register currently and to have a special interest in the clinical area being considered. The DHSC are not aware of any individual on Island registering their interest as a prescriber at this stage. As an initial stage in prescribing products on the Island, however, the DHSC have scoped the use of a community pharmacy to stock cannabis-based medicinal products in order that patients with a private prescription could access their products 2065 on Island. A Prior Information Notice has already been placed for potential providers to respond and DHSC will be considering the award of a pilot contract at the departmental meeting in July.
The President: Mr Hooper.
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2070 Mr Hooper: Thanks very much, Mr President. It was quite a long and convoluted Answer, but I got the feeling it was good news coming out! (Laughter)
Ms Edge: At the end! 2075 Mr Hooper: I am just wondering if the Minister could provide some clarity. He is saying that a Prior Information Notice has been submitted. He is expecting to be able to make a decision at the end of July in respect of specific types of products being prescribed in a specific way. Can he just provide some clarity on when he expects that to go live if a decision is made in July? Are we talking 2080 about August or are we talking about 12 months to get things up and running?
The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2085 As Minister for Health and Social Care, I am not used to imparting good information, so I had to give a bit of a convoluted Answer just to make sure that it was good news myself! It is good news, Mr President; it is a huge step forward that people will be able to access prescriptions on Island. If it is approved at the departmental meeting in July, certainly from what I have seen of the 2090 potential operation that could be in place, my understanding is it can be up and running fairly quickly, so we are not talking a 12-month period.
The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.
2095 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister talks a lot about prescriptions and they will be prescribed: is that agreement in place with the GP services on the Island?
The President: Minister. 2100 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. In relation to it, it would be private prescriptions so it would not be NHS prescriptions. We need to be absolutely clear on that.
2105 The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you. I am just wondering if the Minister could outline a little bit more about how this is aligning with the UK, because presumably these would be private prescriptions that will be issued under NICE 2110 guidelines in accordance with GMC protocols, so this is really about making some medicines that are not available in the UK available in the Isle of Man. Could the Minister perhaps just be clear that that is what we are talking about?
The President: Minister. 2115 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It would depend upon what comes back from the PIN notice, to be perfectly honest, because the PIN notice talks both about unlicensed products and also licensed products, so we will need to see what comes back from the Prior Information Notice first, in people’s ability to do that. 2120 This is a first step, Mr President. This is by no means the end of the journey, this is the start of the journey – and what a time it has taken to get to that very start point! So we are not ruling ______2384 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
anything out at the moment, but we need to see what comes back from the PIN, because the PIN is asked to look at both unlicensed products and licensed products.
2125 The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: If I could just push a little further on that then. In terms of the unlicensed products, if we are going to deviate from the way that the UK operates its system, is that a threat to checks at borders and moving medicines across borders? I am just wondering if the Minister 2130 could perhaps just expand a little on that as well, please.
The President: Minister.
The Minister: These are the things that would have to be looked at, Mr President, because we 2135 must not do anything that would actually endanger in any way – and I know exactly where the Speaker’s concerns have come from because I have voiced them myself in this Hon. Court before – we must not do anything that actually endangers our free movement of goods. So we would need to look at the background to these products and what can be done legally and decently, if I can put it in that phrase. 2140 The President: Mrs Christian.
Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I really welcome this news but would the Minister be able to come back to this Court in July 2145 with the results of the PIN notice and then the estimated delivery of people actually being able to get the prescribed medicinal cannabis? Thank you.
The President: Minister. 2150 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I will try my best but I cannot give a guarantee that we will be able to do that, but certainly we will see what I can share with Members.
JUSTICE AND HOME AFFAIRS
20. Review of regulation of legal services – Progress in appointing independent Chair
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson, to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
What progress he has made towards appointing an independent Chair to review the regulation of legal services pursuant to the resolution of April 2021?
The President: We move now to Question 20. Hon. Member, Mrs Poole-Wilson.
2155 Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs what progress he has made towards appointing an independent Chair to review the regulation of legal services pursuant to the resolution of April 2021?
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2160 The President: I call on the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs, Mr Cregeen, to reply.
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President, and I would like to thank the Hon. Member for her Question. The Council of Ministers’ Sub-Committee on Justice approached six potential candidates to 2165 undertake the review on 21st May. Out of the six, four candidates have now expressed an interest and we are now awaiting their final confirmation as to the availability and cost. I will be in a position to further report back at the July Tynwald to Members and I will commit that we will bring a report to Tynwald in December.
2170 The President: Mrs Poole-Wilson.
Mrs Poole-Wilson: I would like to thank the Minister for giving that level of detail. So if I have understood correctly, he is able to confirm, or he thinks he will be able to confirm, in July when an appointment will be made? He has also said that he is committing to bringing the report back 2175 in December – a report from that inquiry; is he confident about that, or will the time taken to appoint mean that there might be some delay? And does he agree with me that it is better to get a good report that works and allow sufficient time for that if need be as opposed to sticking rigidly to a deadline? Thank you, Mr President. 2180 The President: Minister.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Of course, we are not going to be trying to rush this because it is about the quality of the person 2185 who will be doing the review and if it is going to take a little bit longer to get the right person I think that would be the right decision to do. Plus also it will be dependent on the cost, because if we try to rush it it might be more expensive to try and get it in that timescale than actually give somebody a bit more time. So, yes, either way we will report back on progress by December or on the total findings. So one way or the other this Hon. Court will be informed in December. 2190 The President: Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I welcome this good news and thank the Minister for it. Just a technical point. Can sub- 2195 committees of Council of Ministers actually carry out procurement and spend money directly, or is somebody doing it on behalf of the committee?
The President: Minister.
2200 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. That is why I said that we will be seeing what the cost is and then we will be going to Treasury for that point.
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NATIONAL HOUSING PROJECT BOARD
21. Housing First arrangements – Organisations expressing interest; date and terms
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chair of the National Housing Project Board:
What organisations expressed what interest in providing Housing First arrangements; and when, and on what terms, an Emergency Night Shelter and the proposed Housing First Support Service will be put in place?
The President: Question 21. Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
2205 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Chair of the National Housing Project Board what organisations expressed what interest in providing Housing First arrangements and when, and on what terms, an Emergency Night Shelter and the proposed Housing First Support Service will be put in place?
2210 The President: The Chair in question is Mr Harmer, amongst his other duties.
The Chair of the National Housing Project Board (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. The Cabinet Office led a request for information process via the procurement portal in October 2020, with the view of establishing interest from the third sector and private providers in 2215 respect of an emergency housing daytime drop-in and night stop for the Housing First Support Service. Interested parties were initially asked to provide a response against an overarching service brief to understand the market’s ability to develop and deliver the services. At the closing date for responses the following interest was recorded: for emergency housing daytime drop-in and night 2220 stop facility, Housing Matters and Manx Housing Trust; and for Manx Housing First Support Service governance matters, Housing Matters, Manx Housing Trust, Praxis Care, Quing and the Salvation Army.
The President: Mr Thomas. 2225 Mr Thomas: Thank you. Does the Minister share my disappointment, as I am sure he will, that this has not yet been progressed to the next stage of the actual procurement and the actual putting in place of an order; and when can we expect actual procurement and actual putting in place of the service, so we do 2230 have 30 beds and the drop-in facility and the signposting facilities?
The President: Minister.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr President. 2235 Obviously I share the Member’s same sort of frustrations and concerns. I need to just indicate where we have got to. On the assessment of responses, it was determined no single organisation was fully positioned to deliver the services as set out in the request for information document. A next step approach between Cabinet Office, the Department of Health and Social Care, and the Department of Infrastructure was entered into competitive 2240 dialogue with interested parties, with a view to identify a service model that the market was capable of providing.
______2387 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Interested parties attended a virtual event in March 2021 where various service options were discussed to highlight key challenges, opportunities and risks. Subsequently, drafts to service specifications have been developed with a position paper due to be submitted to the Social Policy 2245 and Children’s Committee to confirm the tender approach.
The President: Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 2250 That is good news that some progress has been made. The intention of the call for expressions of interest was to establish whether the local third sector and private sector had the interest, the capacity and the capability to deliver the service. Can the Minister confirm that the local private sector and charities do have those things? Secondly, what body is envisaged as assessing homelessness and the need for this support? Is 2255 it a Government body? Has a decision been made about that? Who is taking this forward in practical terms? Thirdly, perhaps the Minister would like to confirm that the people involved with this have looked back to the last Housing Policy Review Progress Report from 2009, when Mr Crookall had the privilege to write the Foreword, which actually has in its Appendix G a strategic approach to 2260 tackling homelessness and supporting homeless people, which lays down all of the things that are still under investigation 12 years on.
The President: Mr Harmer. Twelve years on, you may or may not be able to –
2265 The Chair: Yes, I think we have moved on a long way since then. In particular, and in answer to the first part of the question, him saying is there capacity or is there capability within the sector, and the answer actually is yes. However, the point that I was trying to make is that no one provider does a complete picture. Obviously that was delayed because of COVID, but when we have got all the parties together 2270 to actually work with them to see how we can have a full wraparound service ... Because what we have got to remember is it is not just about a shelter, it is about a pathway to make sure that all the considerations of those people are considered and to help them into their long-term, secure housing. So that work, we have moved quite significantly, I do want to move as quickly as possible. That 2275 is where we are at the moment, and then to pull their services together to then actually provide that. Obviously the funding is already there in place till April next year. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Final supplementary, Mr Thomas. 2280 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I am not sure that we have actually moved on in those 14 years since Mr Swithinbank wrote down this diagram, because back 14 years ago, short-term emergency accommodation was then provided by the Broadway Night Shelter, as it is now; Housing Matters provided night stop 2285 alternatives with bed and breakfast; the Women’s Refuge, the Salvation Army and the Manx Housing Trust were involved in providing medium-term accommodation with support; and then also permanent access to housing was provided in exactly the same way as it is now and the gaps were the same as they are now. So will the Minister undertake to finally do something despite the Election coming up and that 2290 the charities can be engaged to take things forward immediately, because we do have a serious problem that has been there since 2007 and written up in 2007?
The President: Minister. ______2388 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The Chair: I completely agree with the sentiment and, for me, immediately is not soon enough, 2295 and that is what we are thrusting with this work. Obviously, what is really important to understand is it is about what services are needed as the individual as a whole, and that is really important. You can throw something up but it does not actually solve the problem. Thank you, Mr President.
CHIEF MINISTER
22. Open borders and COVID-19 – Protecting key workers and the unvaccinated
The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Christian) to ask the Chief Minister:
When the borders open, what mitigation measures are planned to protect against COVID-19: (a) key workers; (b) children who have not yet had two doses of the vaccine; and (c) those who cannot or choose not to be vaccinated?
The President: Question 22, Hon. Member, Mrs Christian. 2300 Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister when the borders open, what mitigation measures are planned to protect against COVID-19: key workers; children who have not yet had two doses of the vaccine; and those who cannot or choose not to be vaccinated? 2305 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: The Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. 2310 In moving to the Mitigation, living with COVID, phase we have to accept that COVID-19 is going to be an endemic disease affecting our communities for the foreseeable future. The virus may change in terms of transmissibility, virulence and ability to evade vaccines in ways which we cannot predict or always plan for. This means that we will see cases, clusters and outbreaks on the Isle of Man and we will not be able to protect the population from risk of infection. 2315 Vaccination clearly provides the greatest mitigation but it is accepted that not everyone in the population will be able or willing to be vaccinated, and not all those who are will receive optimum protection; for example, because of underlying conditions that reduce our immune response. In the short term, our border mitigations remain an important part until more of our population are as fully protected as they can be. 2320 Long term we will continue to respond to cases, clusters and outbreaks to contain spread and reduce as far as possible onward transmission. Ongoing surveillance testing, for example, LFDs for asymptomatic, unvaccinated individuals and wastewater testing will likely be needed long term. Regular screening in secondary schools through LFDs done at home is currently being planned with an expected start date of 21st June, subject to supply arriving on Island. 2325 A Member: At long last.
The Chief Minister: The issue of vaccination for children aged 1 to 15 is contentious due to the delicate balance of risk and benefit, given that the risks to young people from COVID-19 are 2330 extremely low, notwithstanding the known unknowns around long COVID. The main reason for vaccinating this age group would be to increase protection for adults. ______2389 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
When community circulation of COVID-19 is low there is no need for specific mitigations for key workers, children and those who have not been vaccinated. In line with the current phase of the COVID response individuals should take responsibility for themselves and their families. They 2335 should consider their own risk if they are not vaccinated or have underlying health conditions, and follow the recommended actions to reduce risk of infection and transmission – hands, face, space and fresh air. They should make their own assessment of whether attending crowded indoor gatherings may be appropriate for them. In the event of an outbreak, contact tracing, surge testing, surge vaccination if appropriate and self-isolation will be used for containment. A return 2340 to high levels, should this occur, of circulating virus would need consideration of stronger guidance for all of us on the reintroduction of non-pharmaceutical interventions. Mr President, Government is steadily but cautiously removing itself from our people’s lives. I recognise that for some this may be a worrying time, but living with COVID will mean people making individual choices that affect their everyday lives, based on their own assessment of what 2345 is best for them. Government will work to inform, but increasingly the decision will rest with individual people. Thank you.
A Member: Hear, hear. 2350 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Christian.
Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I really welcome the long-term surveillance testing, regular screening on our children in 2355 schools. I think those are absolutely fantastic measures that we can definitely take forward. Does the Chief Minister agree that early messaging and clear communication to these cohorts of our planned mitigation measures for non-Isle of Man residents is essential so that organisations, parents and the vulnerable in our society will be reassured this Government will help protect them against the more transmissible variance when our borders do open? 2360 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2365 Yes, early messaging, where possible, is always important to get as much information out to our people as possible. Sadly, we are living in a very fast-moving, fluid situation where not long ago the UK was expecting to open up with no restrictions and in a very short period of time we find out it is now four-weeks’ delay to this situation. Obviously, Hon. Members will be getting a briefing today and subject to, hopefully, with 2370 Mr President’s and the Hon. Court’s permission, a vote possibly yesterday, then I will be able to communicate that to the greater public on our way forward as we take the next steps forward. Thank you.
The President: Now, I have three Hon. Members wishing to ask supplementary questions. 2375 Mr Callister, Mrs Lord-Brennan –
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President, I thank the Chief Minister –
The President: One moment, please – and Mrs Christian. 2380 Now, I am conscious it is now one o’clock. We are going to have a briefing. I intend to resume Questions until three o’clock this afternoon, so I think the best thing to do given what we have to do over the lunch period, is we adjourn this Question and come back to it at half past two. Is that agreed? (Members: Agreed.) ______2390 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Just for the avoidance of doubt, Miss August-Hanson has continuing leave of absence, which I 2385 did not necessarily announce at the start of this session, but she has continuing leave of absence. The Court will now adjourn until 2.30 p.m.
The Court adjourned at 1.03 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.32 p.m.
Open borders and COVID-19 – Further supplementary questions
The President: Fastyr mie, Hon. Members, please be seated. Now, Hon. Members, we resume our Question Paper and we are at item 22. I will first call Mr Callister, then Mrs Lord Brennan, then Mrs Christian. 2390 Mr Callister.
Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. Fortunately, I have already asked my question at the lunchtime briefing. So thank you, sir. (Laughter) 2395 The Speaker: You are not on Hansard.
The President: Yes, but not on the public record, you have not.
2400 Mr Callister: It is fine, Mr President –
The President: It is up to you … (Laughter)
Mr Callister: It is fine, Mr President. 2405 The President: Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I would be interested to know how the mitigation advice and public awareness of what steps 2410 should be taken between a day-one test and a day-six test can be strengthened. It appears to me that the day-six tests are there for a reason, so I am interested to know how that can be approached and strengthened, since it should be something that should be helping us all. Thank you, Mr President.
2415 The President: Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, obviously the day-one test is incredibly important, but the day-six test is just seen as a – I am not saying belt and braces, but it is trying to reduce the risk of an outbreak, or someone then 2420 going to pass it on. I think we have picked up at least one person, to my knowledge, who has been negative on the day-one test but has been positive on the day-six test. We ask those people, and everyone is clearly told, you cannot go to any medical health setting during that period of time and crowded areas such as a nightclub, etc. you really should avoid, and try to mitigate the risk as you travel around the Island. But we are hopefully giving a briefing on Thursday with an update to 2425 the public and I am happy to reinforce the message of what people should be doing between day one and day six at this current time, at that briefing. ______2391 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian.
Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. 2430 Does the Chief Minister agree that it is the mitigations we actually place on our visitors when the borders open, whilst emphasising individual responsibility for person-level actions for Manx residents, that will ensure the success of living with COVID and safeguard our Manx unvaccinated cohort? In actual fact, does the Chief Minister also agree that these visitor mitigations – for example, I 2435 know in Scotland they request people to wear face masks when they are not sitting down in a restaurant, and they are walking between say there and the bathroom, or outside in the public or in retail settings; and that actually UK visitors are used to doing this and when they come over here they would actually be used to doing these mitigations as well? Has the Chief Minister had a thought about that? 2440 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2445 Well obviously we will be discussing this, probably tomorrow evening, I should imagine, Mr President. But the mitigations that we are looking to put in place will significantly reduce the chance of infection. It will not stop visitors coming over and potentially giving COVID to the Island, but it will reduce. It was felt that the wearing of masks in between, as they walk around the Island, or if they go 2450 into areas may be a step too far, but I am more than happy to look at that in the Council of Ministers. But at this moment in time the mitigations will be two plus two – two vaccinations plus two weeks of having the last jab, to significantly reduce your chances of infecting anyone from the Isle of Man. This is a policy that has been implemented with our colleagues in Guernsey.
2455 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. In his original Answer, the Chief Minister made reference to lateral flow testing being undertaken in schools, and I am sure I have heard reference that this would be undertaken at 2460 home. Does the Chief Minister have any concerns about the very low reliability rate that has been reported from the UK roll-out of lateral flow testing at home where the UK government is reporting that actually, it is only about 2% to 10% effective at identifying a positive case, and that the number of false positives may very well outnumber the numbers of true positives, where you have very little COVID in circulation? I think the number is where there is below one case in a 2465 thousand, I think is the reference that I have seen. Does the Chief Minister have any concerns about this, about the false positive rate, about the very low reliability of this testing, when done in the manner that seems to have been suggested? And, actually, how is he going to make sure that the message around this is very clear to the public when we are talking about false positives and we are talking about the number of cases that are 2470 going to be identified through this, and this proposed system of testing that may not actually be true cases of coronavirus?
The President: Chief Minister.
2475 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I think it is fair to say, Mr President, that nothing is perfect that we are going to do; nothing will give a guarantee that we will not get COVID on to the Isle of Man. What we are trying to do with the proposals that we are coming forward with is that testing for all five-and-over before ______2392 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
they can go into a school for this period going forward, and doing testing amongst our schools if 2480 we feel there is a problem and a need, that is helping to reduce the risk. It is not going to be perfect, but if it enables us to do testing in a school and even if we just pick up 10%, then that is 10% more than we would have been doing had we not done it at all. I know a number of Hon. Members have been calling on me to do the lateral flow testing and, listening to Hon. Members, that is what we have agreed to do.
23. Capital Projects Unit establishment – Progress; developments of over £3 million
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Chief Minister:
What progress has been made towards establishing a central Capital Projects Unit; whether it is intended that the Unit will supervise developments costing in excess of £3 million; and if so, when?
2485 The President: We move on now to Question 23, Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister what progress has been made towards establishing a central Capital Projects Unit; whether it is intended that the Unit will supervise developments 2490 costing in excess of £3 million; and if so, when?
The President: Chief Minister to reply.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. 2495 Before progressing with establishing a major projects unit, Council has awaited the findings of the review of the Department of Infrastructure which has now been received, to enable this to be taken into account when determining how best to manage the successful delivery of major capital projects – and that is those over £3 million. The review proposed a revised structure for the Department of Infrastructure and highlights 2500 that with such a structure in place it may not be necessary to establish a separate unit for larger schemes. Council will be considering the delivery plan for implementing the proposals arising from the review of the Department of Infrastructure and quite rightly wishes to revisit the subject of a major projects unit in light of the review. I expect that decision on this to be taken in the coming weeks. 2505 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Supplementary, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 2510 From that Answer, I am left more puzzled, actually. The Beamans review of the Department of Infrastructure said that the finding was there was an urgent need to bolster the project management capacity, but in light of the indication at the Budget time that any major capital projects valued over £3 million would be in a separate unit, can the Chief Minister indicate whether there is a possibility that separate unit now might be in the Department of Infrastructure 2515 permanently, rather than in Cabinet Office or with Treasury as it previously was? Thank you.
The President: Chief Minister. ______2393 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2520 I hope the Hon. Member for Garff will not be confused because all the report is saying is that we need to beef up the Department of Infrastructure. There is a lack of project managers on this Island and there needs to be a number of extra posts created to deliver on that project managing. Now, prior to the findings of the review being received, Mr President, it was the view of CoMin that larger projects – again, those over £3 million – would be better delivered centrally. However, 2525 the changes proposed to be made to the structure of the DoI justify further consideration to be given at this time. That is all we are saying. If the review comes back and says, actually, with the changes made, the Department of Infrastructure may be the best place to have it, major capital projects, rather than having it centrally, then we would be foolish to make that change now when we have not listened or 2530 received the review that we have now asked to be given to the Council of Ministers. That is all we are saying. We are not saying no to the central capital projects being centralised in the Cabinet Office. We are just saying in light of this review we are just waiting to see what proposals are put forward and then we will make a decision.
2535 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Chief Minister agree that it is very important we do not get confused here? The Beamans terms of reference referred specifically to the DoI and therefore they would assume, 2540 quite reasonably, that in order to deliver on the terms of reference that it would require some form of Capital Projects Unit. If, however, the terms of reference had been different, and the question had been asked separate to how an operational DoI Department would work, but where should the capital projects team sit, it might very well have been a different answer. So can the Chief Minister assure me that they are going to see this in a much more holistic 2545 sense, rather than necessarily just one Department upon which it is that Beamans has reported on? Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Chief Minister to reply. 2550 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for his comments and would like to reassure him that we will look at this from a holistic point of view; what is best for the Isle of Man, what is best for the taxpayer, what will deliver the best results. That is what we as a Council of Ministers – I am sure all Members 2555 in this Hon. Court – feel is the way forward. Now, we had looked to recruit senior people to deliver on our major capital projects in the Cabinet Office. All we are saying is that we are just going to put that on pause briefly, whilst we get a report on how the DoI can move forward in case that might not be the best way. But we will be always looking at it for what is right for the Island. 2560 Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 2565 I think there is an assumption that we are accepting the Beamans report, and to be quite honest, Mr President, I think it is another quite poor report, and certainly where it comments in the executive summary that the ‘Project Management Unit currently comprises [of] 5 project managers’, what it does not say is how many other project managers there are in the DoI or how many they have lost recently because civil servants have come in to do their role when they are 2570 the qualified people. ______2394 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
So I would like to ask the Chief Minister has he completely accepted what Beamans has said in their report and he is moving forward with that? Thank you, Mr President.
2575 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I think the answer to the last question first is that the Council of Ministers does broadly accept the report of Beamans and has tasked the Chief Secretary to come up with a proposal on how this 2580 will be implemented. Now, regarding project managers, there is a world shortage, or certainly a UK shortage of project managers, and it would appear that when we bring over a project manager to the Isle of Man they can be poached, shall we say, by a construction industry which is in desperate need of project managers. Now, I think one of the important things that we as a Government have to do 2585 is what can we do to train our own? Can we work with the University College to come up with courses to ensure that we have a good production line of project managers; because at this moment in time we do not have a vast number of project managers on the Island. If you read the report in detail that is alluded to, and that is something that we have to rectify. I remember standing here back in 2011, 2012 complaining that we were not training … I think 2590 we were only training half a dozen nurses a year. We had a desperate shortage of nurses and we were having to bring over locum agency nurses at three times the cost. So we were able to come up with a training course and we now do 20-plus. So this is an area we need to look at. Thank you.
2595 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I would be grateful if the Chief Minister can confirm that the establishment of a Capital Projects Unit will go ahead and also advise whether the Beamans DoI report will be debated, because as 2600 far as I am aware, and it may have gone back a lot longer than this, but the reason why the CPU had been put forward as something that was necessary was because of the Prom and now it seems like we are moving – and loads of other projects, too – and now it feels like we are moving to another thing where we are saying, actually, we need to expand the Department of Infrastructure. So I think we need to surely keep some focus here, because the whole point was this stuff 2605 actually needed something outside Infrastructure, was my understanding. So it is about whether we will debate the Beamans report and confirmation that we will still be having a CPU. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Chief Minister. 2610 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I just want to clarify we have not said we are not going to have a CPU. We are just saying we have had a report which recommends that we need to beef up the project management side of the Department of Infrastructure because there was a chronic shortage of qualified project 2615 managers. That is not just in the Department. That is everywhere, but they are saying we need project managers. Now, if the review says, well actually, we will carry on with a split set up where you have your central team in the Cabinet Office for the big projects and then the smaller – under £3 million – continues in the DoI then that is what would happen. But if you have had a report that makes a 2620 number of recommendations, including the beefing up and restructuring of the Department of Infrastructure, then surely, just before you make that final decision, you just double check to make sure that is the right way forward. We are not saying no to a centralisation, but when you have ______2395 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
got this report, it would be foolish not to just step back for a week or two, see what the findings are and then make a final decision. 2625 So we are not saying no to a central Capital Project Unit.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. 2630 When the Council of Ministers make the decisions as to where the Capital Projects Unit should sit, can he assure me that he will take into account the fact that some of us have, although a great respect for Beamans, also a growing concern that in the normal course of events most of their customers are much bigger organisations in much bigger jurisdictions and at the end of the day there is only 83,000 of us and that we cannot build these huge organisations in every area? I think 2635 the example we have got there is that we took very seriously, and rightly so, their report on the Department of Education, but we threw a whole section of it because it was literally too much. I hope that the Chief Minister can assure us that he recognises here that Beamans may have been in some danger here of seeing DoI in isolation. I became actually so concerned about it myself, having spent some time with them, that I wrote to them afterwards and said, please 2640 remember how small the Isle of Man is and try not to end up with big organisations that would answer all circumstances on every occasion, which we cannot afford to do. We may very well have to bring expertise in specifically to particular projects. Thank you, Mr President.
2645 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for some very valid points, which I know I raised at the time about economies of scale and we may have to bring in expertise that we have not got on the Island for 2650 certain projects because you cannot employ someone just for that one job that might come up once in 10 years. But equally, there are lots of capital projects where we do need that skill and we just do not have it. Now, that is not having a go at the Department of Infrastructure in general, it is a massive problem around the world, certainly in the developing world, where there are a lack of capital 2655 project people and the report clearly says we are lacking there in that skill and that we need to beef it up. So it may well be that in the interim, for the next three/four years, we have to bring that skill over, Mr President, to the Island because we cannot grow it at the time, but it may well be working with UCM that we should always be looking at courses that are relevant to what the current world 2660 wants, to our current needs on the Isle of Man and if we can come up with a degree course or whatever it is that maybe takes two to three years to grow our own that surely has to be the best way forward. But please, nothing is in tablets of stone. We are trying to look at it to take it forward as best we can, but when someone clearly draws to your attention that you are lacking in a skill that a 2665 good project manager is worth their weight in gold, as I have found out when I have done a capital project myself, and therefore that is the area that we need to improve in. We will take it forward. Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 2670 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I am just wondering would the Chief Minister agree that Beamans start out saying that the Department is too big and then they finalise saying we need more staff? (Laughter) I just feel like it is becoming another financial burden for the people of the Isle of Man without them actually ______2396 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
2675 fully looking across Government, as the Hon. Member for Douglas East has said. There are plenty of project managers in Government. Perhaps people do not know there are, but there are, and perhaps we need to be looking at the skill sets that are already in DoI that perhaps could just transfer to the Projects Unit. There are other ways to look at a problem rather than throw money at it, Mr President. 2680 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I certainly agree with the Hon. Member for Onchan that we do not want be throwing money 2685 at things just because a report tells us to, but it is like a good advocate: even if they are costly, it will save you a fortune if they know the latest rules. A project manager who has the skills in managing a project and getting it delivered on time and on budget, if you are dealing with a £3 million project, will soon pay for themselves. If the Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge, can provide me with all the names of all these 2690 building project managers that are spare round Government then of course I look forward to asking OHR to relocate them, but they are scarce at this moment in time. We have a building boom. The Island has not been able to build for a while with COVID etc. and we are seeing a massive growth in construction on the Island at this moment in time, as is indeed the UK and other jurisdictions. But I will take on board, if the Hon. Member can provide me with building project 2695 managers that she feels are working in Government elsewhere, then happy to take it on board; but equally, I do not think they are there. But I for one agree with her that we should not be throwing money and just creating more jobs unless we can see value for money for the people of the Isle of Man.
2700 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. The Department of Infrastructure brand is unfortunately badly tarnished. Would the Chief Minister agree that if public confidence is to be restored in the Government’s ability to 2705 competently manage large capital projects that it is important that the Capital Projects Unit is not domiciled in the Department of Infrastructure?
Three Members: Hear, hear.
2710 The President: Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for Middle for his comments. Yes, at this moment in time there are some projects which have maybe let us down in the delivery of time, but others that have been progressed well. 2715 I think Hon. Members are worrying that we are going to do away with the centralised Capital Project Unit – we are not. All we are saying is we have got a report here and we are just seeing, before we go ahead with it, let’s just review is there a better way. And if there is, I would commit to bringing it here to Tynwald Members, which will hopefully give you the reassurance. But if the report says, no, we think we have to have two – we have one for the over £3 million projects and 2720 we have one for under and we keep them one in the Cabinet Office, one in the DoI – then I am fine with that. There is nothing precious here, Hon. Members. All I want is that if we have got a report that we just check it out first of all to make sure that there is not a better way as a result of the recommendations that we are going to action. Thank you.
______2397 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
24. Libraries – Future direction of
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:
Pursuant to the Council of Ministers’ recommendation, in its Response to the Report of the Select Committee on Library Provision 2017/2018 [GD 2018/0033], that the Select Committee on Library Provision continues with the important work of determining the future direction of the Island’s libraries, what the future direction of the Island’s libraries is?
2725 The President: We move on now to Question 24. Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Chief Minister what the future direction of the Island’s libraries is, pursuant to the Council of Ministers’ recommendation in its Response to the Report of the Select 2730 Committee on Library Provision, that the Select Committee on Library Provision continues with the important work of determining the future direction of the Island’s libraries?
The President: Chief Minister to reply.
2735 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. Public libraries are provided by some local authorities who have the power to provide a library under the Local Government Consolidation Act 1916. This Act enables local authorities to acquire land to build a library, provide a library service and carry out management of a library. Libraries are also provided by other bodies, including the third sector. 2740 As Members will recall, a Council of Ministers’ working party was established to look at the purpose of public libraries and the working party, chaired by the Hon. Member, Mrs Barber, duly reported back to the Council of Ministers. A significant amount of research into libraries both on and off Island was carried out as part of the Report with recommendations as to what our public libraries could look like in the future. There was also strong evidence of the need for a mobile 2745 library to support those areas that do not have direct access to a public library and to provide support to vulnerable members of our community. I am very keen that the public should have the opportunity to review and input into the options provided by the working party, and so the Report will be published for consultation on its contents and proposals and the findings of the consultation will then be available for the next 2750 administration. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.
2755 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I appreciate and welcome the consultation. But doing something is most important and the Family Library, which carries on delivering the services that were transferred to it 10 years ago, could cease to exist by the time the next administration is in place. Can the Chief Minister put it on record that he believes there is community value … There is 2760 value in itself for things beyond the Mobile Library and that the Library in Douglas provides a great many things that are of great value? Secondly, can the Chief Minister assure this Hon. Court and the Manx public that he believes that any charity that manages to raise more than £20 million to deliver those services over 10 years is something worth supporting? 2765 The President: Chief Minister. ______2398 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. This is a problem that has been rolling on since I was a back-bencher. I remember going up and looking and visiting the Family Library and the Mobile Library, and at that time our finances were 2770 in a dire state and they had been cut, and I am glad to say that we have seen a survival. So for me, personally, I have always supported the Mobile Library because of social isolation and people living out in the countryside unable to get in to a library. We have had the Report from the Committee and I thank them very much for that Report, and we are going out to the community. Where I am more sceptical about the need and the value for 2775 taxpayers’ money is having a number of libraries in Douglas, and whether there is mileage in one merging – you could have a Children’s Library merging into an existing library and having that section there. That could be a significant saving and still providing a level of service. I will look forward to the feedback from members of the public and other interested parties on how they see this Report and the way forward. 2780 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you to the Chief Minister. 2785 Just to clarify, I got a little bit carried away with the success, but £2 million –
The Chief Minister: I was going to say, £20 million … (Interjection)
Mr Thomas: It is still a great achievement. 2790 Does the Chief Minister agree with me though that the Family Library is an integral part, all of its parts are connected, firstly? Secondly, does he agree with me that it has not gone round looking for services to provide, it has just kept going for 10 years, the services that were transferred to it from all of the Departments of Government? 2795 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Was I impressed with the service that the Family Library gave when I last visited? Yes, I was, 2800 but we have to look at other ways. The amount of usage of libraries in general has been contracting with online books, etc., now; and we have to say, is the best way forward of keeping a dedicated family library when we have other libraries in Douglas that could be merged? That is something that needs to be looked at. Therefore, I think Council of Ministers has accepted in total that the Mobile Library, because 2805 of social isolation and people living throughout the countryside, is needed, so we can park that. But there are still questions as to whether the Family Library … should it have a future in its current standalone position or could it be merged with another library? Let’s see what the great Manx public have to feed back to us on that one, because at the end of the day, Mr President, it has to be paid for. 2810 The President: Final supplementary, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Chief Minister accept that the Public Library in Douglas, provided by public servants, 2815 costs twice as much to run as the charity-run library in Douglas? Secondly, does the Chief Minister accept that the charity has kept the building – which would become another vacant building if it was not used for this purpose – going, through paying the insurance and maintaining that building with charitable funds? ______2399 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Chief Minister. 2820 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas, puts a passionate case forward for the Family Library, and I know I have been lobbied by ex-members of staff and people who use the facility as I am sure we all have. 2825 I am sure he will put those points forward in the consultation period and I look forward to reading it, maybe from outside this Court when that consultation comes back, and the next administration can decide whether or not they wish to continue to put money into it, or whether they can for a smaller amount of money get the same valued service for the people who use that Family Library elsewhere. 2830 The President: Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of Questions for Oral Answer.
Suspension of Standing Orders to take the remaining Oral Questions – Motion lost
The President: Yes, point of order, Ms Edge.
2835 Ms Edge: Is it possible to look at extending Questions, if there is anybody who would second that?
The President: You so move. Is there a seconder to that? Mrs Christian. 2840 Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second.
The President: I put first to the Court, is the motion to suspend Standing Orders to take the remaining Questions agreed with? Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The noes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 10, Noes 14
FOR AGAINST Mr Moorhouse Mr Ashford Mrs Barber Dr Allinson Mrs Caine Mr Baker Mr Callister Mr Boot Mrs Christian Mr Cannan Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Peake Mr Speaker Mr Perkins Mr Thomas Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly
2845 The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys, 10 votes for, 14 against.
______2400 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
In the Council – Ayes 5, Noes 3
FOR AGAINST Mrs Lord-Brennan Mr Greenhill Mrs Maska Mr Henderson Mr Mercer The Lord Bishop Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe
The President: And in the Council 5 for, and 3 against. A quorum of both Branches being required, the motion fails to carry.
Procedural – Questions 25, 27 and 37 withdrawn; remaining Oral Questions answered in writing
The President: Mr Thomas.
2850 Mr Thomas: Could I withdraw Question 25, then, please?
The President: I beg your pardon?
Mr Thomas: Could I withdraw Question 25, rather than having it answered in writing? 2855 The President: Well, if you would let me just finish what I was going to say, the Questions would therefore be answered in writing.
Mr Thomas: Thank you. 2860 Could I withdraw Question 25, please?
The President: Mr Thomas, you are withdrawing Question 25.
Ms Edge: Mr President, could I withdraw – ? 2865 The President: Do other Members wish their Questions rolled on to the next sitting?
Mr Mercer: Mr President?
2870 A Member: Two sittings.
The President: Mr Mercer. Clerk?
2875 The Clerk: They are normally just answered in writing.
The President: Yes, they are normally just answered in writing. I am giving the option to have them for the next sitting. (Interjections) Yes, the next sitting … 2880 Ms Edge: So can I have them at the next sitting of the House of Keys?
The Clerk: No. ______2401 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Ms Edge: No? So can I withdraw certain ones then? 2885 The President: No, it will be answered in writing. I was giving Members the option to indicate if they wished to ask them orally at the next sitting.
Ms Edge: I would like to withdraw – 2890 The President: Accepting it was a sitting of the Branches in between, but that is quite separate.
Ms Edge: Okay, could I withdraw Questions 27 and 37 then, please?
2895 The President: You wish to withdraw them from answer?
Ms Edge: From the Tynwald sitting.
The President: Thank you. 2900 Ms Edge: If it is the same Order Paper …
______2402 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Questions for Written Answer
INFRASTRUCTURE
25. Occupancy deposit scheme – Question withdrawn
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
When he expects (a) to launch a detailed consultation on an occupancy deposit scheme and (b) such a scheme to commence operation?
[Question withdrawn.]
26. Slieau Whallian, Carraghan and Injebreck Hill footpaths – Restoring public access
The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What progress his Department has made in restoring public access to footpaths over Slieau Whallian, Carraghan and Injebreck Hill?
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The Department has investigated these issues and held talks with the relevant landowners. The landowners and issues are different on Slieau 2905 Whallian from Injebreck and Carraghyn. With regard to Slieau Whallian, our officers have undertaken a site visit and held discussions with two of the relevant landowners. In 2007 a permissive route was established by agreement with DEFA and three landowners in consultation with the DOI, to provide access from the plantation across the ridgeline to the peak, and back down to the adjacent U70 green lane. 2910 Recently signs have been installed at the Arrasey Road end of this path stating the area is private land. This does not affect the earlier established permissive route which provides a route to the summit and beyond. These signs were installed by the Department following complaints of vehicular damage to the heath by vehicles leaving the U70. The Department is reviewing the next steps with regards to the last 300m where signs have been installed, and is keen to see access to 2915 the permissive path retained for the public to enjoy the peak and ridge of Slieau Whallian. With regard to Injebreck and Carraghyn, our Highways officers have held multiple discussions with the landowner and tenant as we seek to restore access to the public. These are ongoing and the Department will be able to provide a further update in due course.
27. Airport operator’s licence – Question withdrawn
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
Who holds the operator’s licence when the Airport Director is on annual leave?
[Question withdrawn.] ______2403 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
28. Public rights of way – Mechanism to legally protect
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
What mechanism is in place to give legal protection to a public right of way that has been in active use for many years?
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): All Public Rights of Way are shown on the Definitive 2920 Map as a statutory duty of the Department, under section 92 of the Highways Act 1986. The Department is able to defend Public Rights of Way because legal protection is afforded by sections 33 to 55E and sections 57 to 68 of the same Act. Legal protection is provided in relation to the: closure and diversions of highways; 2925 lawful and unlawful interference with highways; damage to highways; obstruction to highways; and danger or annoyance to users of highways. The Act also gives powers to the Department in relation to Presumption by Dedication. If a 2930 highway or path has been enjoyed by the public as of right and without interruption for a full period of 21 years, it can be deemed to have been dedicated as highway.
POLICY AND REFORM
29. First-time buyers – Property price rise impact and help planned
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mrs Corlett) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
What assessment he has made of the impact of the recent rise in property prices on first-time buyers; and what plans his Department has to help people get on to the property ladder?
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): The Department of Infrastructure is currently carrying out a complete review and evaluation of the suitability of the current Shared Equity Purchase Assistance Schemes (SEPA) in the present Island context. The review includes 2935 market testing of residential property sales and market testing with developers and funders, to ensure that the schemes provide the most relevant offering for qualifying individuals to access first time home ownership. The exercise also incorporates the examination of key data from Economic Affairs regarding house price inflation since the last Shared Equity Purchase Assistance Scheme reviews in 2017 and 2940 inflation adjusted median earnings over the same period. Any adjustments to the existing Maximum Purchase Prices and Maximum Annual Earnings will require the Scheme to be revised as secondary legislation, which will follow the due process and ultimately come to Tynwald for consideration in due course.
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30. Census 2021 – Question selection
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Callister) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
How his Department selected the questions to be asked in the census?
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): The questions for the 2021 Census are based 2945 heavily on the standard set of questions asked in the 2011 Isle of Man Census. Changes to these and additional questions were decided upon based on several consultations during August 2020 that were open to Members of Tynwald, heads of Departments and statutory bodies, and the public, and through comparison with the then proposed UK and Irish census questionnaires. Additional questions and changes to previous questions were based on several criteria, namely 2950 that: there is a strong and clearly defined need for the data; the data cannot be obtained from any other source; the data is of national importance and capable of producing high quality statistical outputs; and 2955 the question is clear and easily understood. These criteria were subject to further restrictions concerning the unsuitability of questions whose answers would largely be subjective or place too much burden on the respondent.
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
31. Speech and language therapy – DESC provision
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What speech and language therapy services are provided by his Department; and if he will make a statement?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Manx Care are responsible for the service delivery of speech and language therapy. They work with young people and their 2960 parents/carers to provide evidence-based advice and interventions. On referral, the service work in collaboration with parents and other professionals including teachers, educational psychologists, occupational therapists, physiotherapists, clinical psychologists and teachers of the deaf to provide the Island's children with assessment, review and advice or an intervention programme to help each child reach their communication potential. 2965 Upon identification of any issues requiring intervention, the service provide resources, advice or treatment based on a tiered intervention system as recommended by the Royal College of Speech and Language (RCSLT) which looks at Universal, Targeted and Specialist provision. Information supplied by officers of Manx Care confirms that they provide therapy to all schools, the Pre-School Education Centre, local nursery provision and additionally for any children with 2970 swallowing (dysphagia) issues both within Noble’s and in the community. The service includes services to children with learning disability and difficulty and children with autism spectrum conditions across all the above settings. The Speech and Language Therapy team offer training to ESOs and set bespoke programmes for children and young people that are delivered by ESOs and overseen by the Speech and
______2405 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
2975 Language Therapy team. The Department are working closely with Manx Care to meet the needs of our Island’s young people.
32. COVID-19 and schools – Mitigations in place and advice given
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What COVID-19 mitigations are in place in schools and what advice has been given to schools and to parents?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Currently, the Department’s schools are functioning in line with the IOM Government’s Public Health regulations in respect to COVID-19. 2980 There are a range of universal precautions which should be maintained to keep all those who attend or work in schools are as safe as possible: (1) Minimise contact with individuals who are unwell by ensuring that those who have coronavirus (COVID-19) symptoms, or who have someone in their household who does, do not attend school. 2985 (2) Clean hands thoroughly more often than usual. (3) Ensure good respiratory hygiene by promoting the ‘catch it, bin it, kill it’ approach. (4) Introduce enhanced cleaning, including cleaning frequently touched surfaces often, using standard products such as detergents and bleach. (5) In the event of a pupil or member of staff becoming unwell whilst at school follow a clear 2990 protocol to isolate them and arrange for necessary testing. Action card guidance for schools with outbreak management actions have been co-developed with schools and Public Health to inform and manage potential changes to the COVID-19 situation on the Island. Each school has a carried out a risk assessment which takes into account the individual school 2995 context. There cannot be a one-size-fits-all approach as school leaders have shown that they are best placed to understand the needs of their schools and communities and to make informed judgments. School leaders are in ongoing dialogue through regular meeting with the Department for updates and guidance.
33. Youth Services – Impact of transfer to Manx Sport and Recreation
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What benefits and disadvantages were considered by his Department in deciding to transfer line management of Youth Services to Manx Sport and Recreation?
3000 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): The Department of Education, Sport and Culture has recently undertaken a review of its divisional structure. As part of this review the Youth Services, which were previously part of the Safeguarding and Inclusion Division, ______2406 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
moved to what is now known as the Sport, Recreation and Youth Division. This Division has a primary focus on the development of children and young people outside of the classroom 3005 environment. This then allows for the newly formed Strategic Advice and Support Division to have a primary focus on supporting the development of children and young people within the classroom environment. There are a number of synergies that exist in the offer for young people between Sport and the Youth Services. 3010 The most significant of these is the provision for after-school clubs and school-holiday activity which ensure that our children and young people have a wide and varied offer to be active and engaged within the community which will contribute to their health and well-being and personal development. A further benefit will be the work involved in Young Leadership and Duke of Edinburgh awards. 3015 A key priority of Manx Sport and Recreation and the Youth Division is to develop the leadership, planning and communication skills of our young people who will be the future workforce and volunteers for the community. The Manx Sport and Recreation and the Youth Division will provide opportunities for staff to work across the wider Division and as such this will enhance the experiences that children and 3020 young people will receive. There are limited disadvantages. The Youth Service will continue to offer and deliver against its aims and objectives identified with their scope and work programme and provide services that Sport and Recreation is not involved in. Both sections of the Division (Sport & Youth Service) will have a delivery plan which will deliver 3025 the principles identified within the new DESC Strategy –ensuring improved outcomes for children and young people are key to this. Engagement and consultation with staff has taken place and will continue to take place to improve and develop the provision for young people across the Island. Should a situation arise where a function fits more appropriately within another part of the 3030 Department, then that will be considered at the appropriate time.
CHIEF MINISTER
34. Ettyl’s purchase plans for Stobart Air– Question withdrawn
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chief Minister:
What involvement the Government had in Ettyl’s plans to buy Stobart Air before 28th May 2021?
[Question withdrawn.]
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35. Manx renewable energy generation – Accessing UK Contracts for Difference regime
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Mercer, to ask the Chief Minister:
What progress has been made since 3rd July 2019 in obtaining access to the UK Contracts for Difference regime for Manx-situated renewable energy generation?
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): The Contracts for Difference (CfD) scheme is the UK government’s main mechanism for supporting low-carbon electricity generation. 3035 Renewable energy projects in the Isle of Man are currently not eligible for the UK CfD scheme. The Minister in the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture who has responsibility for energy policy has led discussions with the UK government. Since 3rd July 2019, the CfD eligibility for Isle of Man projects has been raised with relevant UK ministers on at least three occasions. 3040 In the most recent letter received from the UK Minister of State for Energy and Clean Growth on 19th April 2021, we were informed that UK officials are exploring the potential of expanding the CfD scheme in order to allow eligibility for projects within Crown Dependencies. However, it was also noted there are still a number of hurdles to be overcome including possible amendments to UK legislation and ensuring technical alignment with projects that power 3045 multiple jurisdictions. The DEFA Minister is planning to schedule a call with the Minister of State for Energy and Clean Growth at the earliest opportunity so that we may continue these discussions with the UK government and ensure our interests are considered.
EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
36. DESC minibuses – PPV licence requirement for charitable use
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
Whether a PPV licence is required for charitable use of Department of Education, Sport and Culture minibuses?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Although a small number of 3050 schools or school-based charities own minibuses, the vast bulk of the fleet is owned by the Department of Infrastructure as part of Government’s fleet shared service. DoI is the registered operator of all minibuses, including the ones owned by schools. Whilst this is therefore strictly a Question that can only be answered by the Minister for Infrastructure, I am happy to try to assist based on information supplied by officers of the 3055 Department of Infrastructure. Section 6 of the Road Transport Act 2001 allows the Road Transport Licensing Committee to give exemptions for voluntary organisations such as charities but the Act specifically excludes the application of this section to a public or local authority. The Department of Infrastructure cannot therefore apply for an exemption and has to comply in full. This means that a minibus operated 3060 under the DoI’s operator licence that has eight passenger seats or more but no more than 16 passenger seats can only be used to carry passengers by a person who holds the required category of driving licence, which is category D1, and a Public Passenger Vehicle licence issued by the RTLC. The cost of a PPV licence is £29 for a three-year period. ______2408 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
I am sure that the Hon. Member will agree that any vehicle being used to carry our young 3065 people has to be driven by a person who is fully trained and properly licenced and that the Government fleet must be operated in full compliance will the standards set by both its regulators and its insurers.
37. Ballakermeen swimming pool – Question withdrawn
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
When Ballakermeen High School swimming pool was closed; when it will reopen; and if he will make a statement?
[Question withdrawn.]
CHIEF MINISTER
38. CoMin committees and groups – Legal and political bases; cost
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:
What the legal and political bases are for the establishment and operation of (a) Council of Ministers committees and working groups, (b) Chief Minister’s committees and working groups, (c) Transformation and Project Boards, (d) cross-Government committees and working groups established elsewhere in Government, and (e) Chief Minister’s champions; and what the estimated annual officer involvement and cost to the public purse of servicing each of these arrangements is?
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): (a) Council of Ministers Committees and Working Groups: (1) National Strategy Group: established by the Council of Ministers [Minute 194/12 refers] 3070 as a sub-committee of Council, under the Council of Ministers Act 1990. (2) Environment and Infrastructure Committee: established by the Council of Ministers [Minute 194/12 refers] as a sub-committee of Council, under the Council of Ministers Act 1990. (3) Social Policy and Children’s Committee: established by the Council of Ministers [Minute 3075 194/12 refers] as a sub-committee of Council, under the Council of Ministers Act 1990. (4) Justice Sub-Committee of the Council of Ministers: established by the Council of Ministers [Minute 1082/2020 refers] as a sub-committee of Council, under the Council of Ministers Act 1990. Formed to facilitate the functions and stakeholder dialogue of the justice portfolio, within the remit of the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs. 3080 (5) Brownfield Regeneration Steering Group: established by the Council of Ministers [Minute 263/2021 refers] as a sub-committee of Council, under the Council of Ministers Act 1990. Tasked with provided political oversight of the Manx Development Corporation. (6) Emergency Advisory Group: established by the Council of Ministers [Minute 398/2021 refers] and approved by Tynwald [GD 2021/022 refers], in response to a motion of 3085 Tynwald Court regarding provision of COVID-19 independent advise and expertise.
______2409 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
(7) Council of Ministers Working Party on Libraries: the Working Party was established by the Council of Ministers.
(b) Chief Minister’s Committees and Working Groups (current): (1) Chief Ministers Community and Public Engagement Committee: the Committee was established by the Chief Minister as a stand-alone Committee to examine and report on a 3090 specific issue under the Government Departments Act (1987) section 6.
(c) Transformation and Project Boards: (1) Health and Care Transformation Programme: in furtherance of Tynwald support in respect of Sir Jonathan Michael’s Independent Review on the Health and Social Care System [GD 2019/0021], a mandate was issued from the Council of Ministers to the Department of Health and Social Care, the Treasury and the Cabinet Office to ensure implementation of 3095 the Transformation Programme of health and care services led by the Chief Secretary (Minute 396/2019 refers). (2) Climate Change Transformation Board: established by the Council of Ministers in January 2020 as part of the structure of standing sub-committees of the Council of Ministers. The Board is required to provide political oversight of and accountability to the Council of 3100 Ministers for the implementation of the Action Plan (GD 2019/0101) through a Climate Change Transformation Programme. (3) Equality Act Project Board / Equality Act Implementation Group: established in October 2017, and July 2018 respectively and politically sponsored by the Minister for Policy and Reform and the Chief Minister’s Equality Champion – in furtherance of Tynwald support 3105 and compliance in respect of embedding the Equality Act 2017.
(d) Cross-Government Committees and Working Groups established elsewhere in Government: (1) National Housing− Board: established to lead work on the June 2020 Tynwald motion led by the Cabinet Office in conjunction with input from the Department for Infrastructure, Department of Health and Social Care and Treasury, chaired by the Minister for Policy and Reform, reporting to the Chief Minister.
(e) Chief Minister’s Champions: 3110 (1) Chief Minster’s Children’s Champion: established by publicly available terms of reference, a personal appointment of the Chief Minister. (2) Chief Minister’s Equality Champion: established by publicly available terms of reference, a personal appointment of the Chief Minister.
3115 I am able to assist the Hon. Member with details of the officer involvement from my own Department, the Cabinet Office. The committees, working groups and boards listed above are primarily serviced by a team in Cabinet Office as part of their functions, which also include administration of Council of Ministers business, Government Business to Tynwald and political appointments plus other responsibilities. The team comprises 1xSEO, 1xHEO, 1.5xEO and 1xSenior 3120 Secretary. The Health and Care and Climate Change Boards are serviced from their dedicated transformation teams. In conclusion, regarding the financial cost of officer resource expended, the Isle of Man Public Services Commission pay scales (grades) are publicly available to view online here, at: https://hr.gov.im/salary-leave-and-pay/pay-scales/
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39. Libraries – Use and cost; CoMin investigation results
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:
What the use and cost of libraries across the Island is; and what the Council of Ministers found during its investigation of a statutory library service funded by an all-Island rate?
3125 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): On behalf of the Council of Ministers, the Libraries Working Party requested a year’s worth of data from all of the Island’s libraries. Government Libraries such as Manx National Heritage, Ballakermeen High School, UCM and Keyll Darree provided comprehensive information in respect of the requested data. However, despite continued engagement including regular correspondence with local 3130 authorities, a workshop attended by local authorities and meetings with both the Libraries Forum and the Municipal Association, the only public libraries to provide the data requested were the Henry Bloom Noble Library and the Family and Mobile Library, both Douglas based. This lack of data severely hindered the work of the Libraries Working Party. Therefore it would seem unfair to publish data from these libraries where it would be impossible to provide accurate 3135 comparative analysis. The Tynwald motion on libraries was not specifically to investigate an all-Island rate but for the Libraries Working Party to report on: The purpose of public library services; The wider provision of library services across the Island; 3140 Use and cost of libraries; 12 months of data, to be collated and presented in a way which is in an agreed and consistent format used by all, re costs for staff, stock, facilities, utilities, training and other overheads; and usage including membership, footfall, loans, opening hours; additional services; and events; Options for statutory requirement for provision; 3145 A Manx Libraries structure to include: Options with outline plans for future funding arrangement to include, but not be limited to, a shared catalogue, all-Island lending and return, all-Island library membership.
POLICY AND REFORM
40. Public sector employees – Application of PSC policies
The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
Whether public sector employees under analogous terms and conditions to employees of the Public Services Commission are entitled to assume that all existing and future PSC policies will apply to them automatically?
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): It is a matter for individual terms and 3150 conditions of service, which are incorporated into contracts of employment for individual employees, as to which Public Services Commission (PSC) policies would apply. This may vary from one employment contract to another.
______2411 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The extent to which some or all PSC policies, existing or new, would apply to public sector employees under analogous terms and conditions to the PSC would depend on what is negotiated 3155 or consulted upon with trade unions depending on whether or not trade union recognition agreements or other such arrangements exist between the employer and one or more trade unions.
41. Census online system – Capacity and challenges faced
The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Barber) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
What operating capacity the census online system had; how many times it crashed on census night; whether he will grant an extension for census submission given the challenges faced; and what improvements in communication have been planned for the future?
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): It was specified during the design stage that 3160 the online census system would have enough capacity for 44,000 concurrent users. Although the online census system encountered problems on the day of Census night, the system itself did not in fact crash. The source of these problems was a previously unidentified software issue that manifested under the high loads experienced on 30th May, starting at approximately 11 a.m. This caused very slow performance and, for some users, error messages 3165 being reported for most of the day while the census development team worked to develop code to fix the problem. Not all users were affected the same, however, and despite these problems, 3,980 households successfully managed to complete their census return using the online system on that day and 6,340 … In recognition of the challenges some have faced accessing the online system, the deployment 3170 of field officers has already been pushed back a week to 21st June. It should be noted that field officers’ primary role when first visiting households is to assist people in completing the census, if asked to do so, and that fines will only be sought for households who fail entirely to submit a census response despite repeated visits and written requests to do so. Some improvements in communication have already been implemented or planned, in the 3175 form of providing fuller details of the process that leads to a fine being sought against a household. Further improvements for future censuses will be considered and reviewed fully once this year’s census is complete.
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42. Census 2021 – Communications with office since 25th May 2021
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
How many (a) calls were received; (b) forms were completed on the phone; (c) emails were received; (d) forms were (i) sent out and (ii) collected from the office and (iii) received about the census on each day since 25th May 2021?
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer):
Calls Emails Forms received* received** sent out 25th May 2128 289 0 26th May 1161 158 885 27th May 921 167 899 28th May 1078 154 467 29th May 157 90 0 30th May 399 695 0 31st May 336 395 0 1st June 1343 273 1199 2nd June 572 81 532 3rd June 465 86 500 4th June 311 46 375 5th June 15 33 0 6th June 8 19 0 7th June 295 51 139 8th June 204 65 90 9th June 130 31 41 Note: * does not include calls direct to the Economic Affairs Division or calls forwarded from other agencies ** does not include emails direct to members of the Census team or Economic Affairs
Forms completed on the phone 3180 We do not have complete records for how many forms were completed on the phone. In total, 190 phone appointments were completed between 25th May and 9th June. However, that figure ignores a large number of instances where a form has been completed on an ad hoc basis, without being previously arranged by the caller.
Forms collected from the office 3185 No data.
Forms received We do not have a record of how many forms we have received each day since the 25th.
43. Programme for Government – Annual progress since April 2019
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
When he will publish annual progress regarding the Programme for Government (a) macro and (b) national indicators since April 2019?
______2413 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): The Macro and National Indicators were prepared for publishing in January just prior to the circuit-breaker lockdown, at which point the 3190 Programme for Government was suspended due to the pandemic affecting business as usual and the delivery of actions within. It is the intention to have the Year 3 Macro and National Indicators published by the end of this week.
44. Public service media – Future; Government submission to Ofcom review
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:
What the future of public service media is; and what submission the Government made directly or indirectly to the Ofcom review of public service media?
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): In relation to public service media that is 3195 licensed in the Isle of Man by the Communications and Utilities Regulatory Authority, the immediate future will be in accordance with the public service provisions contained in the Communications Act 2021. In the United Kingdom in December 2020 Ofcom launched a consultation with the title ‘Small Screen: Big Debate Consultation – The Future of Public Service Media’. That Ofcom consultation 3200 closed on 16th March 2021. Ofcom is now considering responses and feedback, which will inform its final recommendations that it expects to submit to the UK government during the summer. The UK Government will then consider Ofcom’s recommendations. The Isle of Man Government did not respond directly or indirectly to the Ofcom consultation but it will be interested in Ofcom’s recommendations and the UK government response to those 3205 recommendations. Further information about this Ofcom consultation can be found at: https://www.smallscreenbigdebate.co.uk/consultation
ATTORNEY GENERAL
45. Corrin Home and associated land and buildings – Ownership by charities
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Attorney General:
Whether the Corrin Home and any associated land and buildings are owned by a registered charity; and if so, what the objects of that charity are?
The Attorney General (Mr Quinn): The Corrin Memorial Home is a registered charity and it owes its existence to the wills of the late Thomas, Alice, and Katherine Corrin. This charity retains 3210 the ownership of the land and premises from which the Corrin Memorial Home operates. Its object, which was set out in a scheme approved by the High Court in May 1956, is to provide a residential care home for elderly persons primarily of Peel and District. As a result of a further scheme approved by the High Court on 4th September 2020, the assets of the Corrin Memorial Home are to be transferred, along with those of the Knockaloe Homes (for 3215 Respectable Widows and Spinsters) and the Corrin Memorial Home Governors Accounts, both ______2414 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
also registered charities, to Corrin Holdings – a charitable company established for the following charitable purposes: (a) the provision of relief to elderly, infirm and needy persons suffering financial hardship who are resident in the Isle of Man, including, but not limited to, the provision of residential 3220 accommodation and care and other facilities ancillary or incidental thereto; (b) the provision of comforts and associated benefits for the residents of the Corrin Memorial Home; and (c) the promotion of the heritage of Peel and Patrick by the preservation and conservation of The Corrin Tower, Patrick, Isle of Man (‘the Tower’), adjacent pillars to the north and south 3225 side of the Tower and the memorials to Philip Corrin, Jane Corrin, Robert Corrin, Isabella Corrin and Alice Corrin.
46. Corrin Home – Accounts of involved charities
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Attorney General:
When the last accounts were made up for each registered charity (a) with an interest in the Corrin Home and (b) related to Corrin charities; and which of the audit or examination requirements in section 27 of the Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019 apply to those charities?
The Attorney General (Mr Quinn): Under the Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019, a registered charity must cause its accounts to be made up at least once in each calendar year and the accounts must be sent to my office within six months of the end of each accounting year end. 3230 I can confirm that the accounts have been submitted and received by my office as follows: (a) (i) Charity number 110, the Corrin Memorial Home: the last accounts received are for the accounting period to 31st December 2020 and show a gross income which does not exceed the threshold for audit or examination under the Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019 (the ‘Act’) 3235 (ii) Charity number 1292, Corrin Holdings (a company limited by guarantee): the last accounts received are for the accounting period to 31st December 2020 and show a gross income which exceeds the threshold for audit or examination under the Act [N.B. the members of the company have elected to dispense with the requirement for audit which would otherwise apply under company law.] 3240 (b) (i) Charity number 154, the Knockaloe Homes (for Respectable Widows and Spinsters): the last accounts received are for the accounting period to 31st December 2020 and show a gross income which does not exceed the threshold for audit or examination under the Act (ii) Charity number 110A the Corrin Memorial Home Governors Accounts: the last accounts received are for the accounting period to 31st December 2019 and show a gross income 3245 which does exceed the threshold for audit under the Act (iii) Charity number 110B the Corrin Memorial Home Comforts Fund: the last accounts received are for the accounting period to 31st December 2019 and show a gross income which does not exceed the threshold for audit or examination under the Act
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47. Protecting charities – Use of Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Attorney General:
What policy or guidance he has issued on the circumstances in which he would make an application to the court to act for the protection of charities under section 39 of the Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019?
3250 The Attorney General (Mr Quinn): The Attorney General has not made any public statement as to his policy or issued any guidance concerning the exercise of his regulatory functions under Part 8 of the Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019, which include the power to make application to the High Court under section 39 for certain orders, inter alia, the removal or suspension of a charity trustee. As a public authority, the Attorney General is required to act 3255 reasonably in the exercise of his statutory functions, which necessarily requires him to take into account the particular facts of each case and the provisions of general charity law. In the case of an application under section 39, the circumstances in which such an order can be made are set out in the subsections 39(1)(a), (b) and (c): (a) the administration of an institution which is, or which purports to be, established for 3260 charitable purposes has involved any misconduct or mismanagement; (b) it is necessary or desirable to act for the purpose of protecting the property of the institution or securing a proper application for the purposes of the institution of that property or of property coming to the institution; or (c) it is in the public interest. 3265 It must be remembered that, in carrying out their responsibilities, the charity trustees are required at all times to act in the best interests of their charity and always within the purposes for which the charity was established. Further, provided they do not step outside the scope of the charity trusts they have a wide discretion as to how they achieve the objects. This means that the Attorney General does not, and should not, seek to take steps as regulator unless the charity 3270 trustees can be said to be acting improperly with regard to the duties they owe in the exercise of that role. The fact that they may be taking steps with which others disagree is not enough.
ENTERPRISE
48. MNH preservation work – Plans, expenditure and income
The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Barber) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:
What preservation work is necessary at present and planned over the next five years in relation to each Manx National Heritage asset; what the anticipated spend per year for the next five years is for each asset, broken down by capital and revenue; and what income each has generated in the past five years?
The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): This is a very complex Question and at the heart of MNH’s role as a statutory body with responsibility for the nation’s heritage.
Preservation work 3275 MNH holds a wide range of assets, including land, historic buildings, museum archive and library collections as well as buildings and structures used for delivering services. All the heritage
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assets need to be preserved for future generations but the facilities used for services (for example the House of Manannan) have to be maintained in good order not just to keep staff and visitors safe but to meet the charity’s legal obligations. Most of the assets do not generate an easily 3280 identifiable income. Given the wide range of assets held by MNH, the information requested by the Hon. Member is not available broken down in this form. However, MNH has recently published its Forward Development Plan, which identifies its priorities in these areas for the next three years: https://manxnationalheritage.im/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/1519-MNH-Forward- 3285 Development-Plan-2021-2023-V3.pdf [Also available here: https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210615_Q48_Link.pdf]
The following points may also be useful: There is considerable overlap between the different types of work undertaken by MNH. For 3290 example the new TT Gallery is being constructed within the shell of the Manx Museum, a building which celebrates its 100 year anniversary as a museum in 2022 but which is of course 140 years old. Work is required on the fabric of the building as part of the envelope for the exhibition – but a sum will also be spent on the conservation of items going into the gallery such as a set of leathers used by a travelling marshal dating back to the 1930s. 3295 In terms of buildings and other projects MNH has a rolling programme of work which can be roughly divided into three categories: Repair and maintenance Refresh and renewal of facilities Development of new facilities and projects 3300 Repair and maintenance can be further divided into: Planned Major structural work (e.g. reroofing the Manx Museum, pointing the walls at Peel Castle) Minor (e.g. inspecting lifts and electrical installations,) 3305 Reactive (getting the Laxey Wheel running again, repairing guttering, slates, weather damage) Cyclical (e.g. re-thatching cottages at Cregneash, repainting the Laxey Wheel) Enabling (e.g. preparing the shell of an exhibition gallery)
Development of new facilities and projects for collections care 3310 Much of the preservation of MNH’s collection assets is not achieved by active intervention in restoration or conservation but through the provision of premises and facilities which reduce the risk of deterioration. We try to control environments through the exclusion of light, reduced humidity, specialist fire protection and the elimination of pest infestation. Traditionally these facilities have been described as ‘stores’ but in recent decades museums 3315 and heritage bodies have developed innovative methods of access to collections, including opening up these facilities to visitors on a managed basis. This expansion of access also includes digitisation which allows the original item to be cared for alongside digital access. MNH have made fragile items such as watercolours and glass plate negatives available in this way through the iMuseum but do not explicitly describe this as ‘Preservation’. 3320 The standards for Collections Care are international and MNH’s accreditation as a National Heritage agency depends on meeting such standards (ISO and British Standards). Current facilities do not meet these standards and MNH is developing two projects (a) a Large Objects Collection Access facility to replace the existing facility at Balthane, and (b) a new National Library and Archive facility. 3325 This latter project is at the early stages and is being developed in partnership with the Department for Enterprise, MNH’s Sponsoring Department. There is overlap with the facilities and ______2417 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
services needed by the Public Record Office and potential for economies of scale through joint working. A Memorandum of Understanding between the two parties has been signed to support this project.
3330 Income and expenditure The preservation of assets is an area of MNH’s statutory purposes that has been underfunded for many years. Tynwald supported the development of MNH particularly from the 1980s onwards and significant elements of Manx heritage were transferred to MNH for safe-keeping. These included Castle Rushen, Peel Castle and the Laxey Wheel. Whilst there was intervention in the 3335 sites at that time and since, these are large internationally important assets and need ongoing investment. These costs will increase as the sites get older. They are also complex sites with difficult access. In some cases the specialist skills are not available on the Island. MNH has also been supported in the past by Tynwald to provide amenities and leisure to local people, and to contribute significantly to the attractiveness of the Island to tourists. This has 3340 included facilities such as the House of Manannan, Rushen Abbey, Niarbyl and the café at the Sound. The House of Manannan is now 25 years old and due for major investment both in the fabric and the content. MNH does not currently have a complete picture of outstanding maintenance liability across its portfolio and of course it is a constantly changing picture. Historically we have had a revenue 3345 element for maintenance, a Minor Capital Works programme, and a Gallery refurbishment Fund. However, alongside MNH’s reduced revenue support, one of the two capital schemes, which MNH have used to fund some of this essential work, are due to close from 2024-25. Funding is allocated as it becomes available and is prioritised, initially by safety concerns and then by relevance to the priorities stated in the Forward Plan. Following concerns raised by the Public Accounts Committee, 3350 Treasury made available an additional £100,000 annually for three years ending this year but this remains substantially short of the funding needed. Trustees are well aware that the growing backlog of maintenance is a major concern and have agreed to make funding available from reserves to support condition surveys and the development costs of capital projects. A bid will be made to Treasury this year for additional funds 3355 to support this fundamental element of the Charity’s statutory role. Some of the visitor sites do generate income but there is no direct correlation between spend on preservation of assets and income generated. Income depends on staffing, marketing, retail, and event management – all of which have costs which are budgeted differently and not all of which are directly attributed to sites. Operational costs such as energy and cleaning are partly 3360 related to opening schedules. In recent years MNH had adopted a more commercial attitude to some of its assets which are not used primarily as visitor attractions. Eary Cushlin and The Lhen are now operating as holiday accommodation; the former Military Library in Castletown is leased as a coffee shop, and negotiations are under way for the Baillie Scott Police Station to be restored and leased to a local 3365 hotel operator. These properties and all recent acquisitions are intended to be self-financing as far as possible but this only highlights the challenges faced by the other older sites which can never be self-financing. The use of the term ‘assets’ is interesting as MNH hold in trust for the community incredible, invaluable and internationally important heritage assets – but in terms of the ‘balance sheet’ they 3370 are ‘liabilities’.
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49. Returning the Peggy to Castletown – Publishing paper on cost
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:
If he will publish the paper on which the Chairman of Manx National Heritage based the statement, given in a broadcast interview in May 2021, that the return of the ‘Peggy’ to Castletown would cost more than £5 million?
The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): The trustees of Manx National Heritage have noted the increased scrutiny of Island capital projects carried out recently on the Island and elsewhere. MNH has a strong track record of delivering capital schemes and the internal team have considerable skills and experience in this area – particularly in regard to historic structures. By 3375 comparison with new build, all work on historic structures has considerable uncertainty as to costs as it is often difficult or impossible to understand the condition of structures in advance of building work. MNH wishes to be professional and transparent by identifying all potential costs and contingencies well in advance of development. Part of this involves talking to professional 3380 colleagues in the British Isles and beyond who have undertaken similar projects. A summary of the costs of recent and comparable museum projects will be made available in due course. By comparison for example, the new museum to house the Mary Rose cost £38 million, and the Windermere Steamboat Museum £20 million. The figure of £5 million which has been the subject of much ill-informed debate has been used 3385 for some time by MNH as an indicative budgeting figure to emphasis the scale of the challenges of creating a new modern museum facility in a constrained historic site. This figure of £5 million has been in the public domain since at least October 2019 and indeed the Hon. Member was supplied with various briefing notes around that time relating to the various components of the work ongoing at the Nautical Museum site. Further information is available on 3390 the MNH website. The team at MNH have been preparing and planning to bring Peggy back to Castletown for some years but have not yet commissioned a detailed architectural design nor prepared a detailed business case. There is no single document to publish. The complex project requires: 3395 • the careful and professional preservation of Peggy herself; • the repair and restoration of the existing buildings on the site; • completion of the archaeological reports from the dock; • conservation of the finds from the dock; • the construction of a new space for the boat; 3400 • an engineering solution to the tidal dock; • research into the Bridge House papers in the Manx Museum Archive; and • the telling of the story of George Quayle and his family. At this stage the estimate also includes a wide range of costs such as conservation of objects for new displays, creation of museum displays and audio-visual material, and additional staffing. 3405 There are also choices to be made about how to provide good access for people with disabilities and other visitor related facilities such as toilets. These will only become clearer once decisions are made about the nature of any new development MNH will continue to work with its sponsoring department, the Department for Enterprise, to deliver the key elements of the Tynwald resolution agreed at the last sitting in the timescale 3410 suggested.
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EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE
50. Children’s facilities – Assessment and gaps identified
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What assessment there has been of facilities for children, and what gaps have been identified by age and region?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): A breakdown of facilities for children of different age groups around the Isle of Man can be found below.
Youth Service Facilities The Youth Service operate 24 youth clubs across the Island each week offering 61 open access 3415 sessions with times ranging between 3.30 p.m. until 10 p.m. Monday to Saturday. It also offers a ‘little youth’ session within Peel and Castletown on Thursday and Friday of each week. A breakdown of areas and age ranges is as follows: In the north, there are five youth clubs (Ramsey x 2, Andreas, Jurby, and Ballaugh) open each week offering 10 sessions for school years 4 to 11, Monday to Friday between 6.30 p.m. until 3420 10 p.m. In the south, there are three youth clubs (Castletown, Port Erin, and Ballasalla) open each week offering seven sessions for years 3 to 11, plus a parent group, Monday to Saturday between 9 a.m. until 10 p.m. In the east including Douglas, there are 11 youth clubs (Pulrose, Henry Bloom Noble, Café 3425 Laare, The Basement, Onchan Community Hub, Cronk y Berry, Kenyon’s Café, Laxey Youth Centre, Laxey School, Ballacottier School, Willaston School, The Motor Project, BTG at Noble’s) open each week offering 28 sessions for years 2 to 11, Monday to Saturday between 4 p.m. until 10 p.m. In addition to the general youth club sessions, there is a Youth Motor Project drop in session three nights per week, and a hospital based youth work offer three sessions per week at Noble’s 3430 Hospital. In the west, there are five youth clubs (Peel Youth Club, St John’s School, Peel Clothworkers’ School, Foxdale School, Kirk Michael School) open each week offering 10 sessions for years 4 to 11, plus a parent and toddler group, Monday to Friday between 9.30 a.m. until 9 p.m. In addition, the Youth Service staff also offer: detached youth work support where youth 3435 workers will walk the streets and develop positive relationships with young people not accessing youth club provision. This occurs in Douglas, Peel and Port Erin on a Friday evening from 7 p.m. until 10 p.m. The DESC operates its youth provision out of eight youth and community purpose buildings, primary school purpose built rooms, other primary school rooms, and some commissioner-owned 3440 buildings.
Gaps in Provision Gaps that have been identified in youth service provision locally and nationally have always been for services to open more often, be better equipped, and more accessible. The Youth Service is currently looking at the ‘onside Youth Zone’ model currently available in the UK, where Youth 3445 Zones are now part of 17 cities. Youth Zones are state-of-the-art youth centres in communities across the UK, providing young people aged 8 to 19 years old with affordable access to a wide range of positive activities and opportunities, and high-quality sports, arts and leisure facilities, all year long. Youth Zones also provide young people with access to trusted youth workers, providing guidance in areas including 3450 employability, and health and wellbeing. https://www.onsideyouthzones.org/
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More local plans are in place to have our youth and community centres in Castletown, Ramsey, Peel and Douglas further utilised for the needs of communities, young people and families. An upgrade to the internet access is currently being implemented in Ramsey, Peel and Castletown and general updating is taking place in centres in Pulrose, Peel, Castletown and Ramsey.
3455 Youth Survey In 2018 the Children’s Service Partnership (now disbanded) commissioned the Youth Trust (an independent charity) to complete a youth survey. The scope of the survey was to ‘better plan and target services for young people’. The survey was offered by means of a postcard entry to all young people aged 11 to 18 on the 3460 Isle of Man. Posters were displayed in schools, youth centres, and any other relevant centre. It ran from Feb 2018 until April 2018 and generated 1,590 completed responses to the 60-question survey. The Survey was posted on the Youth Trust website and also disseminated to partners within the Children’s Service Partnership. https://youthtrust.im/ In response to the survey in 2018, the Youth Service has increased its offer to the LGBT youth 3465 groups by increasing its sessions to supporting all secondary schools with LGBT youth drop ins, and starting specific youth club sessions within Castletown, Peel and Ramsey. The LGBT group also meets weekly in Café Laare in Douglas. A further response to the outcome of the 2018 youth survey is the youth service offers a ‘bullying versus banter’ workshop to all secondary schools on the Island. This was advertised to all 3470 schools within the documented offer booklet produced by the Safeguarding and Inclusion Team.
Sports Facilities In the autumn of 2018, IOM Sport commissioned an independent audit of sports facilities on the Isle of Man. This was an action that was identified in the IOM Strategy for Sport 2014-2024. A report was submitted in 2019 which identified that there are 329 sports facilities across the 3475 Island with the following split: East 167 North 53 South 68 West 41 3480 A breakdown of those facilities by type can be seen below.
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As a comparison and benchmark against England, the following was reported: The Isle of Man has 7.5 hectares of outdoor sport facilities (playing pitches) per 1,000 population. Sport England’s benchmark figure is 1.6 hectares per 1,000. The Isle of Man has 5.6 badminton courts’ worth of indoor sports hall space per 3485 10,000 population. Sport England’s benchmark figure is 3.8 courts per 10,000.
Gaps in provision No assessment has been made in relation to gaps in facility provision for specific age groups, as the majority of the facilities identified within the audit are suitable for children and adults, with the only exception being a facility that would not be appropriate for children, such as a gym. 3490 In terms of number of sports facilities in the regions in relation to the number of people who reside in those areas the following has been calculated, using the last census data: East: 1 facility per 252 people North: 1 facility per 232 people South: 1 facility per 163 people 3495 West: 1 facility per 161 people
School facilities There is an open grounds policy for all schools, which enables access to school grounds out of school hours for children and young people. Use of this is not monitored.
Pre-school provision on school sites: 3500 There are five schools with suitable buildings on the school site, let out via tender to private nursery providers: St John’s – Mooinjer Veggey Rushen – Hopes and Dreams Ballasalla – Hopes and Dreams 3505 Ballacottier – Sandcastles Jurby – Bright Beginnings
Lettings: Different groups, including those for adults and children can hire out part of a school’s premises, including sports and assembly halls and school fields with access to changing facilities, 3510 under the lettings systems operated by the Department.
51. Education Act 1872 150th anniversary – DESC plans to celebrate
The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:
What plans the Department has to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the Education Act 1872?
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson) This is an important milestone for education on the Isle of Man. The Department will work with the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Culture Vannin and other partners to create suitable learning opportunities and resources for all Island schools to use at 3515 different key stages. This will be in addition to the standard resources offered to teachers supporting citizenship and democracy focusing on Tynwald and the Isle of Man.
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ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE
52. Biodiversity Strategy Action 21 – Application
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Mercer, to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
How the Biodiversity Strategy Action 21 is being applied in practice; and if he will give examples?
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): The policy of no net loss for semi-natural habitats and species is an important element of the Biodiversity strategy and a 3520 matter that my Department applies in advising on the risks of developments to biodiversity. Ecosystem officers check the Planning lists each week and advise on any matters that this may relate to, to check that potential effects are avoided where possible or mitigated or compensated. In order to aid the submission of applications that take account of biodiversity issues more fully than is often the case, and thereby reduce delays within the Planning system, a guidance 3525 document is currently under development. The team also undertake search requests for biodiversity records, to enable such ecological impact assessments and preliminary environmental appraisals, and meet many applicants prior to planning application submission to advise on issues to address and mitigation proposals. Examples of no net loss application include: replacement hedge creation, where this has had to 3530 be removed, and provision of nest boxes for birds that utilised the hedge, whilst the works are in progress; provisions for replacement bat roosts or recreated access to a long-standing roost where necessary works have affected such a roost; and the recreation of wetland habitat where development has necessitated the loss of such can an area. The policy is also applicable to the consideration of consents on ASSIs and to requests for 3535 advice on works approval applications relating to areas of natural habitat with respect to the Agricultural Development Scheme. Phase 1 of the Isle of Man Government Action Plan for Achieving Net Zero Carbon Emissions in 2050 includes an action to develop planning advice on maximising carbon sequestration, minimising emissions and maintaining and restoring ecosystem services, and work towards a 3540 requirement for biodiversity net gain in Planning. Amendments to the Town and Country Planning Act 1999 and the Town and Country Planning (Development Procedure) Order 2019 are set out in the Schedule to the Climate Change Bill (currently awaiting Royal Assent). These amendments create a duty for a national policy directive or a development plan that takes into account ‘the maintenance and restoration of ecosystems’ and ‘biodiversity net gain’ to be issued before 3545 1st January 2025 and it is anticipated that the Strategic Plan will be reviewed to include a requirement for biodiversity net gain, in line with this. In addition, all planning applications, except those for approval for change of use, reserved matters, replacement windows and doors in conservation areas and minor changes will need to demonstrate that they have had regard to the maintenance and restoration of ecosystems and biodiversity net gain. 3550 The commencement of the amendments to planning legislation, under the Climate Change Bill, are subject to an appointed day order which will follow the preparation necessary to achieve the shift from a policy of ‘no net loss’ to one of ‘net gain’. The Climate Change Bill will also support the Biodiversity Strategy and Action 21 of that strategy in the following ways: 3555 • Consideration of the likely impact on biodiversity, ecosystems and ecosystem services is one of the statutory criteria for modifying the net zero emissions target year or a baseline year or for setting or modifying an interim target and that likely impact must be set out in each five-yearly climate change plan under the Bill. ______2423 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
• The annual progress report must contain a statement on the extent to which biodiversity, 3560 ecosystems and ecosystem services have been enhanced, protected or otherwise affected during the period • The Bill creates a duty for all public bodies, in performing their duties, to act in the way they consider best to contribute to protecting and enhancing biodiversity, ecosystems and ecosystem services. It also places the same duty on the Council of Ministers. 3565 • The Bill contains amendments to the Forestry Act 1984 which serve to protect and regenerate peatland which forms not only an important carbon sink but a valuable natural habitat. In addition, there are other related actions within the Biodiversity Strategy, reported in the mid-term audit, which support Action 21, such as Action 22 on rates of change, under which a new habitats map and report is expected imminently, and Action23, restoration, under which site 3570 remediation projects are underway.
53. Single-use plastics – Elimination
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
Whether all unnecessary single-use plastics had been eliminated across Government by January 2021; and if not, what progress has been made towards this?
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): The elimination of all unnecessary single use plastics is clearly a challenging action and this has been tackled through the creation of a group of Sustainability Champions representing the various Government Departments. This has been a good example of Departments working together to achieve a wider 3575 aim. Sustainability Champions have made great progress and continue to drive single-use plastic reduction across the Government service. Most Government Departments that have an active Sustainability Champion have removed all single use plastic straws, cotton buds, and cutlery, plates, cups and drinks stirrers, replacing them with either reusable or disposable non-plastic 3580 alternatives. Additionally, most offices and schools now have access to tap water and some are also refill stations. Significant plastic reduction initiatives include efforts by the Villa Marina, which has replaced single-use plastics cups with reusable alternatives, saving approximately 1,500 single-use cups per event. 3585 The National Sport Centre has also fully engaged with the Governments Plastics Plan, having removed plastic bags for wet gear, and plastic overshoes for the changing rooms, removing approximately 10,000+ plastic items per year. Single-use plastics have also been minimised at most Government events, and a ban on many single-use plastic items is included in the vendor/stall holder requirements at the Food and Drink 3590 Festival, Tynwald Day Fair and the TT Grandstand. There will nevertheless remain areas where further progress could be made and therefore engagement materials have been circulated recently across Government as a push to uncover those areas for consideration. Similarly, the Department is working to develop an initiative that can further assist Departments in moving from single-use items to washable, reusable items, in 3595 line with the Government commitment to tackling climate change. However, we cannot know what level of use has not been uncovered yet and we do recognise that there are some very large Department’s that provide a major challenge for a Sustainability Champion to audit on top of their regular role. However, this campaign is about changing attitudes ______2424 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
and this Question will hopefully add to the encouragement and awareness for everyone to think 3600 about whether there are unnecessary single-use plastics remaining in their work environment that could be replaced with more sustainable items. Please do report these to your Department’s Sustainability Champion. I also note that ‘Plastic Free July’ is approaching and I therefore encourage everyone to consider what actions and changes they might make to engage in this campaign and truly reduce 3605 the amount of single-use plastic used, both across Government and the wider community.
54. Affordable housing– Provision and commuted sums raised 2020-21
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:
What (a) affordable housing has been provided and (b) commuted sums raised from affordable housing agreements made under section 13 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1999 between 1st April 2020 and 31st March 2021?
The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): During the period 1st April 2020 and 31st March 2021 commitment was given to affordable housing by way of executed legal agreements under section 13 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. Six section 13 Agreements were entered into which provide for 66 affordable housing units 3610 and a commuted sum of £41,520.96 in lieu of three units. The Department of Infrastructure has confirmed that during the period in question there were 12 affordable houses provided. In the same period, £243,106 was received in commuted sums from affordable housing agreements. It should be noted that the construction industry was closed during some of the period in the 3615 Question.
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE
55. Nursing and residential care facilities – DHSC policy on referrals
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What his Department’s policy is on referring people to and from nursing and residential care facilities?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): There is no written Department of Health and Social Care policy for referring people to and from nursing and residential care facilities. However, there is a recognised referral and needs-led, fair access to care service assessment process that informs the decision-making. 3620 Referrals received via the Adult Social Care Access Team will be allocated for assessment with a focus on maintaining independence in the individuals own home for as long as possible. An allocated social worker will undertake the formal assessment with the older person and were possible the inclusion of family. ______2425 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
If care is required, then as much choice as possible is afforded to an individual in regard to 3625 where they would like to live, alongside their financial means to do so. Individuals can also make their own arrangements privately if they do not wish to access a Manx Care facility or commissioned nursing home bed. Under the requirements of the Regulation of Care Act a care home must undertake their own individual assessment to ensure that as a provider of care, they can meet the individual’s needs.
56. Residential care for older people – Referral process
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What factors are considered in deciding where to refer older people requiring residential care; how this process is initiated; and in what circumstances it is paused?
3630 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Following an assessment of need there are number of factors which need to be considered if an older person is requiring residential care. Importantly, as much choice as possible is afforded to an individual in regard to where they would like to live alongside their financial means to do so. Equally, access and proximity to family and environmental factors are also important. 3635 If the process is paused, it could be for a number of reasons including finding and securing a suitable placement, the individual’s choice about moving into care and if there has been a change in need since the initial assessment was completed. In the event of an older person being placed in a care home operated by Manx Care all referrals will be considered by an allocation panel that assesses priority of need, level of risk and vacancies 3640 available. Under the requirements of the Regulation of Care Act a care home must undertake their own individual assessment to ensure that as a provider of care, they can meet the individual’s needs.
57. Vaccine rollout progress – Estimates by 28th June 2021
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
How many people will by 28th June 2021 have had (a) one, and (b) two vaccine doses; and for how many people will that date be (c) at least two weeks after their first dose, and (d) at least two weeks after their second dose?
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Unfortunately it is not possible to provide an exact figure for each of the answers due to cancellations or do not attends (DNAs), 3645 which may occur at the time of the appointment, as such the figures provided are as accurate as can be provided. As at Thursday 10th June: first dose figures were 61,312; second dose figures were 28,412.
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3650 By 28th June the following totals are estimated to be: (a) 63,012; (b) 40,436; (c) 62,162; (d) 28,492.
58. Adult social care homes – Potential capacity; empty beds in the last year
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:
What the potential occupancy is of each adult social care home in the Island; and how many beds have been empty in each of the past 12 months?
3655 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Below is a table which identifies all of the Adult Care Homes (except Learning Disability services) and the maximum number of beds they are registered for as of 9th June 2021.
Adult Care Home Number of Beds Beaconsfield Nursing and Residential Home 45 Brinnington Residential Home 18 Brookfield Nursing & Residential Home 57 Castle View Nursing Home 66 Corrin Memorial Home 45 Manx Care 11 Hutchinson Square 4 Manx Care Cummal Mooar Resource Centre 49 Manx Care Reayrt Ny Baie Resource Centre 48 Manx Care Reayrt Skyal 16 Manx Care Gansey Unit (Southlands) 12 Manx Care Southlands Resource Centre 48 Manx Care Sweetbriar Thie Meanagh (Unit 2) 16 Manx Care Thie Meanagh (Unit 1) 16 Elder Grange Nursing Home 82 Ellan Vannin Home 38 Grest Residential Home 16 Grove Mount Residential Home 23 LV Crovan Court 52 Marathon Court Nursing & Residential Home 39 Salisbury Street Adult Care Home with Nursing 68 Shenn Valley Residential Home 12 Silverdale Care Limited 63 Springfield Grange Nursing Home 62 Sunnydale Residential Home 49 Tudor Lodge Residential Home 16 Viva Heights Residential Home 31
The DHSC do not collect or hold the vacancy rates for private care homes but most homes run at a high occupancy level and hold waiting lists for potential new residents. Manx Care Social work 3660 team collect the vacancy numbers from the Private Care homes on a weekly basis but do not collate the data.
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Below are the current vacancies as of Monday 14th June 2021:
Current Current Residential Homes Area Vacancies Vacancies Waiting list EMI General 1 x single 0 Brinnington Douglas N/A 1 x shared female Corrin Memorial Home Peel N/A N/A Ellan Vannin Douglas N/A 4 0 Grest Home Ramsey N/A 3 0 Grove Mount Ramsey N/A 6 1 Shenn Valley Douglas N/A 0 0 Sunnydale Douglas N/A 1 0 N/A 0 Tudor Lodge Douglas 0 UNDER 65 Adult MH Viva Heights Douglas 1 0 mainly Current Current Nursing Homes Area Vacancies Vacancies Waiting list EMI General Beaconsfield Towers + Ramsey N/A 0 Residential Brookfield + Residential Ramsey N/A 0 Castleview Peel 0 Crovan Court Ramsey N/A 16 Elder Grange Douglas 0 5 2 EMI 0 Gen Marathon Court + Douglas N/A 0 Residential Springfield Grange Douglas 0 1 2 EMI 0 Gen Salisbury St – 28 prvt / 40 1 Private 2 Private Douglas N/A DHSC 0 DHSC 7 DHSC
Manx Care currently have 211 residential care beds for older people. Services that are directly provided by Adult Social Care are made up of a combination of support for older people and older 3665 people with dementia. Currently there are 139 beds for older people and 72 for older people with dementia across eight residential care establishments. Between April 2020 and March 2021 the three care homes for older people had an average occupancy level of 82% and the five care homes for older people with dementia had an occupancy level of 86%. 3670 In addition to older people’s care homes, Adult Social Care also directly provide 83 residential care beds for adults with a learning disability that have operated at 90% occupancy over the last 12 months. There are a number of reasons why care homes cannot operate at capacity, some of which are because of the current environment or the complexity of individual need. 3675 Members will be aware of the Department’s Capital Programme including the current Summerhill View development, which is specifically aimed at ensuring Manx Care’s directly provided services are operated in buildings that are modern and compliant with the Regulation of Care Act.
3680 [See following table.]
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Manx Care – Older People’s Residential Care Homes – Occupancy Figures April 2020 – March 2021
Home No. Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Beds 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 21 21 21 (long term) % % % % % % % % % % % % % CM 42 86 84 82 86 90 90 82 82 83 77 78 76 RNB 40 72 81 77 75 65 68 72 65 66 73 74 69 SL 43 100 100 99 99 95 95 87 95 93 81 91 95 TM 15 76 81 91 95 91 89 77 74 87 93 95 94 GA 11 100 100 94 93 91 93 100 91 91 91 100 100 LN 12 100 98 84 83 92 87 87 90 79 76 80 94 RS 14 76 80 86 73 76 76 69 55 50 63 88 99 SB 15 100 100 100 95 98 100 100 100 98 90 87 84
CM - Cummal Mooar, Ramsey – 42 long stay beds, 3 respite beds, 1 emergency admission bed Total beds 46 RNB – Reayrt Ny Baie, Douglas – 40 long stay beds, 4 respite beds, 1 emergency admission bed Total beds 45 SL – Southlands, Port St Mary – 43 long stay beds, 4 respite beds, 1 emergency admission bed Total beds 48 TM – Thie Meneagh Dementia Care, Douglas – 15 long stay beds, 1 emergency admission bed Total beds 16 GA – Gansey Dementia Care, Port St Mary – 11 long stay beds, 1 emergency admission bed Total beds 12 LN – Langness Dementia Care, Port St Mary – 12 long staff beds Total beds 12 RS – Reayrt Skyal Dementia Care, Ramsey – 14 long stay beds, 2 respite beds Total beds 16 SB – Sweetbriar Dementia Care, Douglas – 15 long stay beds, 1 respite bed Total beds 16
Manx Care Beds Total beds 21
JUSTICE AND HOME AFFAIRS
59. Road traffic collisions – Police attendance and driver details for last five years
The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
How many road traffic collisions were (a) attended by the Police and (b) reported to but not attended by the Police; and of the drivers involved in the collisions listed in (a) and (b), how many were (i) on R plates, (ii) under 18, and (iii) at least 18 but under 21; and of the drivers listed in (i), (ii) and (iii) what the gender split was, in each of the last five years?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs (Mr Cregeen): In seeking to provide as much information as possible in response to the Hon. Member’s Question, I would note at the outset that it was not feasible to obtain an answer to all parts of these questions over the full period 3685 requested, due to changes in recording processes within the Isle of Man Constabulary over that time. I would also clarify that a complete data picture for all collisions where the driver was either a younger driver, or on an ‘R’ plate and did not come to the attention of the Police would of course likely present a wider data set that is not held by the Isle of Man Constabulary. As the Hon. 3690 Member is I am sure aware, in instances where the driver fulfilled their statutory obligations under the Road Traffic Act 1985, in particular at section 20 in respect of exchange of insurance information, and therefore did not come to the attention of the Police, then there will not be recorded data for those individuals. Before setting out the data which has been compiled, I note that there are levels of seriousness 3695 for recorded road traffic collisions, ranging from those involving an animal or damage only,
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through to those where there was one or more human casualties, with injuries from slight and serious to fatal. Injury collisions are recorded in greater detail than non-casualty collisions, and these were used to provide the answers below. The archived injury collisions data prior to start of 2019 does not have the full details required 3700 in an easily retrievable format for the questions asked. I would also note that the 2020 data is affected by effects of pandemic. It is also the case that some drivers on R plates were not in the 16<21 age range. With all of those caveats in mind, the data is as follows:
How many road traffic collisions involving injury in each of the last two years were: 3705 (a) attended by the Police (b) reported to, but not attended, by the Police? In the statistical data the question asked is: Did a Police Officer attend the scene to complete this report?
Attended scene? 2019 2020 Total Yes 160 84 244 No 20 32 52 Total 180 116 296
Of these 296 collisions there were 442 drivers recorded as involved, of whom 55 were between 3710 16 and under 21 (involved in 52 of the collisions).
How many of the drivers involved in the collisions listed in (a) and (b) were: (i) on R plates (ii) under 18 (iii) at least 18, but under21 3715 2019 2020 Drivers of Vehicles involved Total Male Female Male Female Driver on R Plates 13 9 9 2 33 Driver aged <18 7 5 6 1 19 Driver aged 18<21 5 2 1 0 8
60. The Sound Radio application for FM licence – Role of CURA, DHA, CoMin and Tynwald
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
How the Communication and Utilities Regulatory Authority will handle representations in respect of the application by The Sound Radio for a licence to relay the existing online radio service on FM; and how his Department, the Council of Ministers and Tynwald will be involved in the determination of this application?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs (Mr Cregeen): The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs has not held the position of Chairman of Communications and Utilities Regulatory Authority (the Authority) since December 2020, when the Communications and Utilities Regulatory Authority Order 2020 was approved and a lay member of the Authority was appointed 3720 as interim Chairperson pending appointment of a Chairperson by Council of Minsters subject to the approval of Tynwald.
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The Authority has supplied information in respect of this Question to the extent the answers are within its remit. The Authority received an application from The Sound for an additional FM radio station on the 3725 Island. The Authority has not yet made any determination as to whether it would be appropriate to award an additional FM licence and the assessment process is still ongoing. The Department of Home Affairs, Council of Ministers and Tynwald have no involvement in determining licence applications. The award of broadcasting licences is determined by the Authority under the Broadcasting Act 1993, the provisions in relation to ‘fit and proper’ person to 3730 hold a licence under that Act and the provisions in Schedule 1 of that Act in relation to the Restrictions on the Holding of Licences. Any application is subject to the Authority having regard to the matters under section 2(2A) of the Broadcasting Act 1993. These matters include: The ability of the applicant to maintain the proposed service; 3735 The extent to which the proposed service would broaden the range of programmes and cater for tastes and interests different from those already catered for; The extent to which the proposed service would affect the ability of an existing programme service to be maintained; and, The extent to which any reasonable demand for the programme service is, or will be, met 3740 by other means. The Authority, as part of its public consultation process, invited representations on the above in order to inform its decision making1. The period for representations has now closed and the Authority will in due course publish its Decision. Any broadcasting licence issued would be subject to the applicant ensuring availability of suitable frequencies from Ofcom. Ofcom retains 3745 discretion in relation to any conditions that may apply to use of the spectrum for spectrum management purposes, e.g. prevention of harmful interference. Technical conditions which may be attached to any licence issued under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 (as extended to the Isle of Man) are determined by Ofcom.
1 https://www.cura.im/media/1448/20210427_sound-fm-public-notice.pdf [https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210615_Q60_Link.pdf]
61. Advertising and PR organisations – Law and codes for broadcasting and internet use
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
What law and codes cover the use of broadcasting and the internet by advertising agencies and public relations organisations engaged by Government officers and politicians?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs (Mr Cregeen): The Minister for Justice and Home 3750 Affairs has not held the position of Chairman of Communications and Utilities Regulatory Authority (the Authority) since December 2020, when the Communications and Utilities Regulatory Authority Order 2020 was approved and a lay member of the Authority was appointed as interim Chairperson pending appointment of a Chairperson by Council of Minsters subject to the approval of Tynwald. 3755 The Authority has supplied information in respect of this Question to the extent the answers are within its remit. Under the Broadcasting Act 1993 the Authority may draw up and enforce a code governing standards and practice in advertising and the sponsoring of programmes and in relation to
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Programme Standard. The Broadcasting Act 1993 only gives powers for the Authority to regulate 3760 Broadcast Content, not internet content. There are two Codes: The Code of Advertising and Sponsorship1 The Programme Code2 They are both available on the Authority’s website and apply to all programme services 3765 licensed by the Commission under the Broadcasting Act 1993.
1https://www.cura.im/media/1005/code-of-advertising-and-sponsorship.pdf / https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210615_Q61a_Link.pdf
2 https://www.cura.im/media/1006/broadcasting-programme-code.pdf / https://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard/20002020/t210615_Q61b_Link.pdf
62. Broadcasting licence laws – Restrictions on newspaper groups
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:
What the law regarding the holding of a broadcasting licence by a person with an interest in newspapers is; what Government policy exists in relation to that law; how that law can be changed; and how his Department, the Communications and Utilities Regulatory Authority, the Council of Ministers and Tynwald would be involved in making any change to that law?
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs (Mr Cregeen): The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs has not held the position of Chairman of Communications and Utilities Regulatory Authority (the Authority) since December 2020, when the Communications and Utilities Regulatory Authority Order 2020 was approved and a lay member of the Authority was appointed 3770 as interim Chairperson pending appointment of a Chairperson by Council of Minsters subject to the approval of Tynwald. The Authority has supplied information in respect of this Question to the extent the answers are within its remit. The restrictions on ownership of local broadcasters by newspaper groups are contained in the 3775 Broadcasting Act 1993 in Schedule 1. (The same restrictions are contained in the Communications Act 2021 in Schedule 2.) Under the Broadcasting Act 1993, Schedule 1 Restrictions On The Holding Of Licences para 4 Interests in newspapers:
4. (1) No proprietor of an Isle of Man newspaper, a north-west newspaper or a UK national newspaper shall be a participant with more than a 20 per cent interest in a body corporate which is the holder of a licence to provide a sound broadcasting service. (2) No person who is the holder of a licence to provide a sound broadcasting service shall be a participant with more than a 20 per cent interest in an Isle of Man newspaper, a north-west newspaper or a UK national newspaper. (3) Any restriction on participation imposed by sub-paragraph (1) or (2) on the proprietor of a newspaper or on the holder of a licence applies to him as if he and every person connected with him were one person. (4) For the purpose of sub-paragraph (3) the following persons are connected with one another in relation to a particular newspaper — (a) the proprietor of the newspaper; (b) the person who controls the proprietor; (c) an associate of the proprietor or of a person falling within paragraph (b); and (d) a body which is controlled by the proprietor or by an associate of the proprietor. (5) in this paragraph — “Isle of Man newspaper” means a newspaper published and circulating in the Island; ______2432 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
“north-west newspaper” means a newspaper circulating wholly or mainly in the north-west of England; “UK national newspaper” means a national newspaper circulating in the United Kingdom. 6. (1) The Council of Ministers may by order amend paragraph 4(1)(…) by substituting a different percentage for the percentage for the time being specified there.
Such order is subject to the approval of Tynwald. 3780 The same provisions are contained within the Communications Act 2021 and Council of Ministers may amend the relevant sections by order. The matter of whether or not such change in percentage would be made is one that would be a policy matter for Council of Ministers to determine and would be subject to the approval of Tynwald.
INFRASTRUCTURE
63. Public Estates and Housing Division energy management – ISO standards; Climate Change Bill 2020
The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Mercer, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:
Which ISO standards are being followed by the Public Estates and Housing Division of his Department with regard to energy management systems; and what plans that Division has to comply with the obligations to be created by the Climate Change Bill 2020?
The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The Public Estates and Housing Division address 3785 energy management and efficiency in accordance with a number of standards. These include, but are not limited to:
BS EN ISO 50001:2018 Energy management and efficiency
BS ISO 50004:2014 Guidance for implementation, maintenance and improvement of an energy management system.
BS ISO 50006:2014 Measuring energy performance using energy baselines general principles and guidance.
BSI ISO 50015:2014 Measurement and verification of energy performance in organisation.
In order to comply with the obligations created by the Climate Change Bill 2020, the Department has made representation to and has an active input in the Future Energy Scenarios consultation. In addition to this, contributions have been made to the current Climate Change 3790 consultation led by DEFA and the Cabinet Office to provide suitable recommendations for the most appropriate solutions, i.e. a mix of renewable or carbon neutral technologies to meet both the Island’s domestic/non-domestic heating and hot water demand. The Department continues with its energy saving approach to bring the structure of the property portfolio forward in the interim, whilst an Island-wide standard is determined. This work 3795 has included business cases for energy saving initiatives such as the installation of replacement LED lighting, increasing property energy performance, insulation levels and air tightness testing. This foundation work, should the business case be approved, should enable the installation of carbon neutral heating and water heating, once the final Island-wide energy strategy has been ratified.
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OFFICE OF FAIR TRADING
64. Debt advice service – Number of people contacting 2016-21
The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading:
How many people have contacted the debt advice service in each of the years 2016 to 2021?
3800 The Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading (Mr Perkins): The number of ‘new’ clients who contacted the OFT’s Debt Counselling service in each year from 2016 to 2021 (so far) inclusive is shown in Table 64A below:
Table 64A
2016 156 2017 178 2018 225 2019 112 2020 55 2021 (so far) 10
‘New’ clients are those that fully engage with the service, for example, by providing information for the counsellors to create a financial statement, but do not include those clients 3805 who ask counsellors for advice in order to help themselves or returning clients who may, for example, ask for a financial statement to be completely reviewed. The number of clients other than ‘new’ clients as above who contacted the OFT’s Debt Counselling service in each quarter is shown in the tables below. These numbers were not reported prior to 2020 Q2. 3810 The number of clients who asked counsellors for advice in order to help themselves is shown in Table 64B below:
Table 64B
2020 Q2 11 2020 Q3 10 2020 Q4 9 2021 Q1 12
The number of returning clients is shown in Table 64C below:
Table 64C
2020 Q2 57 2020 Q3 56 2020 Q4 89 2021 Q1 62
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NATIONAL HOUSING PROJECT BOARD
65. National Housing Strategy – Working group report; transfer to Cabinet Office; delivery
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chair of the National Housing Project Board:
When the National Housing Strategy working group will report with its costed programme of work; what engagement it has already undertaken; when he expects to transfer the high level strategy, legislation and policy coordination for housing to the Cabinet Office; and when he expects work to commence on delivery of the National Housing Strategy?
The Chair of the National Housing Project Board (Mr Harmer): I can confirm that as yet no decision has been taken to centralise housing policy within the Cabinet Office but that through 3815 collaborative working a high level strategy, legislation and policy co-ordination for housing will be developed through the Housing Board. Subject to consensus from the Housing Board it is the intention bring to July Tynwald an interim report. The work that has gone into this report is a result of a cross-Government officer group who have worked to bring together the necessary scope which will lay the foundation for an 3820 ambitious and future-focused National Housing Strategy.
66. Housing associations – Feasibility of formation and extension
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chair of the National Housing Project Board:
If he will publish the findings of Government’s investigations into the formation and extension of one or more housing associations or similar; and what potential models of housing delivery are feasible and suitable for the Isle of Man?
The Chair of the National Housing Project Board (Mr Harmer): The formation and extension of housing associations (or similar) form part of the work that is being carried out by the National Housing Board with support from a cross-department government Officer working group. Subject to consensus from members of the Housing Board it is the intention to lay before July 3825 Tynwald an interim report which will include scope for housing associations.
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67. Review of affordable housing agreements – Laying for debate
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chair of the National Housing Project Board:
If he will lay for debate in July 2021 the findings and recommendations from his review of the use of affordable housing agreements made under section 13 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1999 with consideration given to introducing a site specific community infrastructure levy?
The Chair of the National Housing Project Board (Mr Harmer): The National Housing Strategy will consider all aspects of housing on the Isle of Man including affordable housing and how it is provided. As such and subject to the agreement of the Board, I hope to bring an interim report as an update on the work in the last 12 months to the July sitting of Tynwald.
68. Site specific community infrastructure levy – Form and nature
The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chair of the National Housing Project Board:
What the form and nature is of a site specific community infrastructure levy?
3830 The Chair of the National Housing Project Board (Mr Harmer): The motion which approved the Area Plan for the East stated at (3)(d):
… requires a proposal for a Community Infrastructure Levy to be introduced by April 2021;
The Statement by the Minister for Policy and Reform in March Tynwald, 2021, made it clear that in order to deliver a Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL) and wider Section 13 (Planning Agreement) improvements, Island-wide viability testing was needed which could only be 3835 delivered by specialist consultants. Work on procuring such specialists is currently ongoing. A variety of CIL initiatives – including site specific mechanisms – may form part of the ongoing project development.
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Order of the Day
3. BBC TV Licensing – Statement by the Minister for Policy and Reform
The President: We move now to Item 3, BBC TV Licensing. The Minister for Policy and Reform 3840 to make a Statement.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Mr President, as Hon. Members will recall, in January 2019 in a combined vote on an amended motion on the Interim and Second Reports of the Select Committee on Public Service Media, Tynwald called on the Council of Ministers to 3845 pursue negotiations with the BBC aimed at securing improved outcomes for the Isle of Man. My predecessor as Minister for Policy and Reform, the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas, supported by the External Relations Team in the Cabinet Office, began formal negotiations later in 2019, with face-to-face meetings at the BBC’s headquarters at MediaCityUK in Salford and also in the Island. 3850 Helen Thomas, the BBC’s Director of England, who also has responsibility for the Crown Dependencies, is the negotiation lead for the BBC. A further meeting with my predecessor was scheduled to take place in Salford in March 2020 but unfortunately this had to be cancelled due to the COVID-19 outbreak. After that, the pandemic took precedence over this and many other issues, which meant that there was a delay of some months before discussions with the BBC 3855 resumed. I had my first meeting with the BBC in my capacity as Minister for Policy and Reform, at the end of September 2020. Obviously, that meeting and subsequent meetings have had to take place virtually. These meetings with the BBC, I must say, have been open, cordial and positive. Ms Thomas, and the colleagues who have supported her on our calls, have understood the 3860 importance of the Tynwald Resolution and the Council of Ministers’ commitment to taking it forward. I believe that both sides have developed a much better understanding of the other’s position, our ambitions and the constraints. So, what have we actually discussed and achieved? There have been two main strands in our discussions. The first of these is that the Isle of Man Government wishes to see a strengthened 3865 partnership between the BBC and the Island as an improved outcome. Secondly is the recognition by the BBC that the Isle of Man is a separate nation within the British family that it has an obligation to serve under the Royal Charter. We want to ensure that the BBC understands that the Island is not just a region of England. As Hon. Members know, the BBC already has a relationship with Manx Radio. This is a unique 3870 relationship, because it is the only such relationship with a local commercial radio station in the British Isles. Of course, Manx Radio is also unique in that regard, as it is the only local commercial radio station in the UK and Crown Dependencies that is also a public service broadcaster. Mr President, I think it is worth setting out the BBC’s partnership with Manx Radio. The BBC funds Manx language programming on the station; it provides Manx Radio with access to BBC 3875 training and expertise; it shares content for use by Manx Radio; and it leases space for BBC staff who are based in the Manx Radio building on Douglas Head. A recent example of the BBC’s support was the provision of impartiality training for Manx Radio staff. The BBC’s partnership with Manx Radio is currently up for review and renewal and the BBC has started discussions with Manx Radio on a new Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), with a 3880 view to that MOU being signed off later this year. Although Manx Radio is owned by the Isle of Man Government, with the Treasury as shareholder and beneficial owner, it is an arm’s-length body that is operationally independent. So it is entirely appropriate for Manx Radio and the BBC to discuss how the two organisations work together, without interference from Isle of Man
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Government. Nevertheless, I am really supportive of the continuation of a strong partnership 3885 between Manx Radio and the BBC, and I would like to see both sides explore areas where the partnership may be strengthened further under the proposed new MOU, both for their mutual benefit and for the benefit of the Island. Mr President, I should mention that the Local Democracy Reporter who is funded by the BBC, is outside the scope of the BBC’s main relationship with Manx Radio, because in areas where these 3890 reporters are based it is open to any local media organisation to bid to host them. But I can confirm that Manx Radio was successful in its recent bid to host the Island’s BBC Local Democracy Reporter for another three years, and the BBC is committed to continuing to employ one of these reporters in the Isle of Man. Mr President, the BBC’s existing partnerships in the UK were, of course, considered as part of 3895 our discussions. Hon. Members will be aware that the BBC has two main partnerships in the UK – that is with S4C and BBC ALBA, both Gaelic language services the viability of which, without BBC or TV licence fee support, is questionable. Of course, the BBC was obliged by the UK government as part of a previous TV licence fee settlement to support the semi-commercial Welsh language channel, S4C. I have been advised by the BBC that, in addition to direct funding to S4C from the 3900 TV licence fee as mandated by the current Royal Charter, the BBC provides news and sport content to the channel and there are restrictions on showing commercials around BBC-provided content. BBC ALBA is obviously a pure BBC-branded and provided Scottish Gaelic channel, but it is funded in partnership with the Scottish government, albeit at arm’s length through Scotland’s Gaelic Media Service, MG ALBA. 3905 I strongly support the continuation and evolution of the BBC’s existing partnership with Manx Radio, and in the coming years I hope this will be strengthened and deepened. Regarding whether there should be establishment of a BBC Radio Isle of Man, this was discussed and considered, but Ms Thomas did not believe any bid for additional BBC funding in this area would be successful. The main reason for this was the current radio landscape in the Isle of Man, with it being well- 3910 served with three local stations. I say ‘well-served’ because research carried out by the BBC as part of our discussions showed the audience penetration for local radio in the Island was significantly greater than that achieved by any BBC local radio station in England. In other words, the BBC stressed that the local market is already, therefore, exceptionally well- served, and they would have no basis upon which to obtain funding to enter this market. There 3915 were also market impact and editorial control issues to be considered if the BBC were, for example, to fund or provide the news content on Manx Radio. And, although Manx Radio does broadcast some Gaelic programmes that are funded by the BBC, Manx Radio, unlike S4C and BBC ALBA, is not primarily a Gaelic language service and nor is it envisaged it will ever become such a service. There is, therefore, not a direct comparison with either of the BBC’s partnerships in the 3920 UK. So turning now to television and digital content. In Jersey and Guernsey there is a local news opt-out during part of the BBC’s half-hour regional news programme at 6.30 p.m. In discussing a similar opt-out for the Isle of Man, the BBC indicated that whilst it is relatively straightforward to provide a TV news opt-out for the Channel Islands, which are geographically distinct and remote 3925 from the UK, it is less easy to do so for the Isle of Man. This is particularly the case for digital terrestrial transmission, which is received through a TV aerial, where residents of the Island receive BBC programming through multiple different transmitters in the Isle of Man, North West England and even Northern Ireland, with different local TV news content. There is, therefore, no single transmitter or service which covers the whole Island. 3930 To get around this, instead, the BBC has proposed the establishment of a weekday video news programme for the Island, along the lines of the Channel Islands’ local television news opt-out, and in the style of the 6.30 p.m. regional TV news programme, but available online and via BBC iPlayer. The programme would consist of news stories from the Island with some news items from North-West England that are relevant to Island residents; for example, there could be stories 3935 about Liverpool landing stage or hospitals where Island residents receive treatment. I have seen ______2438 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
a demonstration of what such a programme would look like and I have to say that I was quite impressed. Ms Thomas emphasised that although she personally wanted to see this proposal taken forward, the additional funding required for it is not yet in place and BBC England is having to bid 3940 for this funding. That process is under way. If the proposal is approved, Ms Thomas suggested that it was likely it would be initially for a one-year trial period to evaluate uptake. A complication for the funding bid is that the BBC is now deep into negotiations with the UK government on the BBC licence fee funding settlement for the period from April 2022 to the expiry of the current Royal Charter at the end of 2027. The UK formally started this process last 3945 November and an announcement is expected later this year, and perhaps during the summer. We do not know what the new settlement will be, but we do know that the UK government has previously expressed its ‘disappointment’ that the BBC did not continue to fund free TV licences for all over-75s when it was given responsibility for this issue last year. And, Mr President, in addition to the question of funding, the BBC is now facing perhaps one 3950 of the most challenging the periods in its history. Last month’s damaging report by Lord Dyson into how the BBC’s 1995 interview with Princess Diana was obtained may yet have significant implications for the future of the organisation. So, Hon. Members, that is where we are at the moment, waiting to hear if the bid for funding for the proposed Isle of Man digital video news programme has been successful. I am hopeful that 3955 it will be, as the proposal aligns with the BBC’s ‘Across the UK’ initiative that was announced earlier this year, and it could act as a test bed for similar video news programmes for other areas. I have no doubt that the provision of both video and sound programming by digital means, such as the internet or 4G or 5G, is going to become the norm in the future – indeed, we are already well on the way to it being the norm. 3960 A further small but important change that the BBC is making relates to the BBC News website. This is to recognise that the Isle of Man is a separate nation within the British family that is not part of the United Kingdom. Previously, to navigate to Isle of Man news from the BBC News front page one had to click on ‘England’ then ‘Regions’ and only then was there a link to ‘Isle of Man/Ellan Vannin’. Now, if one clicks on the ‘UK’ tab, as well as links to England, Northern Ireland, 3965 Scotland and Wales, there is a direct link for the Isle of Man, and also for Jersey and Guernsey. This increases our visibility and represents our position as a nation within the British family. However, although this is a step in the right direction, I have asked for this change to also be made on the news front page. The BBC has advised that it was technically easier to make the change on the UK page but it is working on amending the main front page. Of course, the content 3970 on the BBC’s Isle of Man news webpage is at least as important as the visibility of that page, and I believe there is still scope for that to be developed, particularly leading from the content from IOM digital programme. Incidentally, I have also raised with the BBC the issue where sometimes the Isle of Man is shown on their maps as being part of England or the UK, and sometimes the Island is entirely 3975 missing. I have made it clear that I expect the Island to be represented appropriately as the separate nation within the British family that it is. Finally, the BBC has advised that it is committed to reviewing the ease of access to, and prominence of, Isle of Man audio content on the BBC Sounds app. As with other local content on the BBC Sounds app, it is not always straightforward to navigate to content that is relevant to the 3980 Island. Mr President, at the outset and still, the obvious comparator for the service that the Isle of Man receives from the BBC is the service that the other Crown Dependencies of Jersey and Guernsey currently receive. There can be no doubt that they get disproportionate benefit compared to the Isle of Man, or anywhere in the UK for that matter. I expect, and Tynwald rightly 3985 expects, improved outcomes for the Island from the BBC. But that does not necessarily mean exactly the same provision as for the Channel Islands.
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The time when the BBC was able to roll out a number of new BBC local radio stations in places like Jersey and Guernsey is now long past. If we had wanted BBC Radio Isle of Man at that time I have no doubt we could have had it. But we did not. We had, and have, Manx Radio as a station 3990 with public service broadcasting obligations in the Island. And at the present time the BBC does not believe that it is in a position to significantly expand its radio offering here. Due to historical and technical reasons we are in a different place to the Channel Islands. Nevertheless, the BBC is fully aware that its public service remit under the Royal Charter applies to the Isle of Man. That is why it works in partnership with Manx Radio and why it has proposed 3995 the online video news programme for the Island following our negotiations. Of course, Manx Radio will be specified as an Isle of Man public service broadcaster under our Communications Act 2021, when that Act is brought into operation, but if we are ever in a position where we do not have a local public service broadcaster I would expect the BBC to look again at expanding its current role. 4000 Mr President, the broadcasting landscape has changed significantly in recent years, particularly with the advent of an increasing number of on-demand streaming services, and the COVID-19 pandemic seems to have accelerated a shift to a more digital world. By the time that the BBC’s current Royal Charter expires at the end of 2027, I am sure that it will have changed more. Will there still be a BBC as we know it today? If so, will it still be funded by a TV licence fee? 4005 And will Island residents still be required to pay any such fee? I do not have the answers to those questions today. The TV licence fee operates in the Isle of Man under UK legislation that applies here with our consent. It is in our hands to request that its extent to the Island is revoked. My sense is that the BBC is still appreciated by many people in the Island both as a generally reliable source of news in a world that is increasingly awash with fake news and also as a provider 4010 of quality dramas, documentaries and other content. And I believe that the proposed on-demand video news programme and the BBC’s recognition of the Isle of Man as a separate nation do in fact represent a move forward in the journey for improved outcomes for the Island, and the recognition given by the BBC. Mr President, perhaps the most important aspect is the positive relationship with the BBC and 4015 the need to take this forward. I absolutely do not consider that where we are now is the end of the story, rather it is a work in progress. Now that we have established good channels of communication, we will continue to talk and explore options for strengthening the partnership between the BBC and the Island. I will continue to talk to the BBC for the remainder of this administration and we already have another meeting in the diary. 4020 I also have no doubt the next administration will wish to continue the discussions. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: We have the opportunity for questions, although not statements, on that Statement. First of all, Mr Speaker. 4025 The Speaker: Thank you. Can I thank the Minister for his comprehensive Statement, and it is good to hear that he has been keen to remind the BBC of the significant disparity between the money leaving the Isle of Man and the money being spent back on the Isle of Man. I am sure that will be a continuing theme. 4030 In that significant Statement that we heard, I did not hear much about any discussion with BBC Parliament about the filming of the proceedings in this place and in the Branches, and for the purpose of a one-off kitting-out cost it might actually be a more viable budgetary matter for the BBC. Has that been something that has entered into negotiations, because it is something that has not come back round to the Tynwald Management Committee? If it is not, is it too late to have it 4035 included in the ongoing discussions about what the BBC can do for us?
The Minister: Absolutely, yes, we have just talked about having it on BBC Parliament. That is one of the items I have not covered in the Statement but we have discussed, and actually they are ______2440 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
very open to that, but it requires the technology within our Chamber to be improved as a 4040 prerequisite to that happening. But, should that happen, yes, they were very positive to actually include that. As I say, there is a BBC Parliament …
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
4045 Mr Thomas: Thank you. I congratulate the Minister and his team for taking forward these discussions, information- sharing negotiations so well, and for that comprehensive report on what was started a couple of years ago. One question about that: do I understand correctly, then, that Council of Ministers has accepted that if the BBC provides digital content, rather than content through the airwaves, that 4050 the Isle of Man will be happy to receive that? So we are happy to have a provision in the modern format, rather than the historic format that Jersey and Guernsey have, because of the technical reasons? The second question is, would the Minister join with me in congratulating the Manx Radio and the BBC boards’ management and staff for having rediscovered the Memorandum of 4055 Understanding and beginning to breathe life into it and to push it to its limit, which was always what was intended in this process? Would he join with me in congratulating and thanking the people for making practical steps like that? Thirdly, would the Minister accept that if we look that way we do not see the Manx Radio model, but if we look the other way we do see it? So RTE across in the Republic of Ireland has 4060 always been, under the Broadcasting Act, part-funded by licence fee and part-funded by commercial revenue. It could well be that the new Manx Radio working closely with the BBC is actually the future, and that might be captured in the next Royal Commission on the TV licence, and that might be something that the BBC can learn from the Isle of Man experience and Manx Radio’s experience. 4065 The President: Mr Harmer.
The Minister: Thank you. I think what we would want to do with the Isle of Man programme is to trial it and have that 4070 pilot go for a few years, but I actually think it is pretty significant because what it is doing – and this leads to the second point – is it is broadening out the content that is available. Much of this, the important thing, is about content, which is available at any time and also that trust relationship. I think the good work that the Hon. Member started, absolutely has been taken forward and that concept of the Memorandum of Understanding is really key, because that is the 4075 vehicle where the BBC can, I think, increase. I would challenge that it needs to increase the amount of involvement. Of course, you have got to remember that obviously every news organisation is protective of its own content and it is a basis of trust, and as that trust increases I think there would be less need for duplication and more need for sharing, particularly the training on impartiality which has 4080 just finished. I think that is an excellent piece of work that has been done and vitally needed, and there are other training patterns happening all the time. But that partnership is a two-way partnership and it is based on mutual trust and respect, which is moving forward. I do not think you can say we have abandoned the analogue, but I would suggest that actually in terms of reach the digital is going to reach further, certainly in the long term. 4085 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Sharpe.
Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. I absolutely welcome this Statement by the Minister. I think it is so important that the BBC 4090 understand that we are a separate nation. This is something which people on the Isle of Man have ______2441 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
been banging on about for decades – being missed off maps. It is great that the Isle of Man is going to appear as a separate nation on the BBC website. That is excellent. I also welcome the suggestion that we could have an online digital news programme. That is fantastic. I do not understand why there was discussion about the idea of having a BBC local radio station, 4095 because I think it is a bit of a red herring. I do not know whether the BBC suggested this, but I have not really heard of anyone calling for a local BBC radio station on the Island. Again, I do not really accept the BBC’s argument about the fact that our public service media radio station is not a fully Gaelic station and therefore cannot receive corresponding funding, as we might see in Wales or Scotland. The fact is that it does represent us as a separate nation and, 4100 from that point of view, it absolutely fulfils the criteria which the BBC have in terms of their responsibility to fully represent minority nations. I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether he discussed the BBC licence fee and how much licence fee is paid for in the Isle of Man, and whether there might be any possibility of some of that money coming back into the Island? Did he address the fact that in the Channel Islands, I 4105 believe, there are 56 BBC journalists at the moment as opposed to two in the Isle of Man? What does the BBC think about that disparity and is there anything they can do to even things up? I think, as I said, the online digital news channel is an excellent idea and something to build on, and I think we do have to seize this opportunity and make sure that it does not disappear into the long grass. Do not let this go. I think the fact that the BBC is saying ‘Well, okay, we are looking at 4110 funding’, but then again –
The President: Hon. Member –
A Member: A question! 4115 Mrs Sharpe: Oh, a question. Sorry, sorry, I apologise, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, you have had a very good opportunity to put a question and I did eventually hear a question, but we cannot have long speeches as preludes to the questions. 4120 I will give you the opportunity for a further question.
Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. Really, those were all my questions. I apologise for becoming overly excited. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr President. 4125 The President: Mr Harmer.
The Minister: Thank you. I think for me what is really important in most things is what is the raison d’être? What is the 4130 reason for the existence of the BBC? I would argue that one of the main reasons is it is a family of nations. Without this family of nations, I do not see the point of a BBC. I will be blunt. Because it is the British family of nations … and so therefore the nationhood is absolutely important. We have got to drill that in, in every part of the BBC. For me that is really important. That is not just about what we receive back from the BBC, but 4135 also for all of their training, all of their graphical maps, the people that do work, all of their journalists, that they understand this is a British family of nations. I think that positive conversation we had is that that point is absolutely got now. I think the vehicle of the Memorandum of Understanding between Manx Radio and the BBC is absolutely critical as that partnership develops. But I would just remind some Members that, for example, the BBC were 4140 going to offer an all-night night service, but that was dismissed by Manx Radio. So what I am trying to say is, it is a partnership and that partnership is strengthening over time.
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They not only have the three staff and a local reporter and the funding for the Gaelic programme. Is it enough? In my opinion, no, there needs to be a lot more; and this is why it is a conversation. We have not finished talking. This is a process. 4145 I completely agree about the BBC local radio station. What is very interesting if you look at some of the local radio stations elsewhere across the British Isles, they have actually been hollowed out. They do not have the depth. They might have an MP3 player and a person talking, and if you look at them now they are three hours long. There is no depth to them, nothing like the richness of the tapestry that we have. 4150 So, I think I have covered all the points, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Caine.
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 4155 I should perhaps start by declaring the interest of having a husband who freelances with Manx Radio. But my points are really over the news coverage, and a comment the Minister has in his speech where he said:
Of course, Manx Radio will be specified as an Isle of Man public service broadcaster under our Communications Act 2021, when that Act is brought into operation, but if we are ever in a position where we do not have a local public service broadcaster I would expect the BBC to look again at expanding its current role.
I would just like to ask the Minister if he would give categorical reassurance that that is not currently on the cards; and while the BBC and Manx Radio are increasing their joint working, news- 4160 sharing and staff training measures, that there is at this time no move for the Isle of Man Government to stop funding Manx Radio as our public service broadcaster, and seek to have the BBC expand its coverage to the Isle of Man? Also my second point would be, digital is not open to everybody, particularly the older people in our community and having a free radio rather than relying on your broadband, or other means 4165 of obtaining news coverage, is very important. The BBC has rolled out a digital audio band elsewhere. Will that come to the Isle of Man? Will there be any joint-funding possibilities to deliver that service on the Isle of Man? And, as the Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe alluded to, we have significantly fewer journalists on the Isle of Man employed by the BBC. Will there be any significant expansion of that in the near future under the agreements that he is negotiating? 4170 The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you. In some respects, what I was doing was a thought experiment: if this happened, what would 4175 be the outcome? As I stated in the Statement, I am very much of the belief that that partnership with Manx Radio, that MOU needs to be strengthened and deepened and developed. By having a half-hour show every day it will require more journalism, more articles, more information, so I believe that actually that is why the additional funding is being proposed. That will be a massive, significant 4180 impact. What was really interesting was looking at the market penetration and the figures and the data that they supplied, basically between the three stations we have. In terms of figures they actually knock for six the numbers that you are getting comparably in the UK. So our media outlets, not just in depth but also the breadth of what they do … a BBC local radio station would not even 4185 come close. It would not even be a third or a half of what is achieved by other radio stations. So I think it is actually quite interesting, quite a good pitch on the radio, and radio is very important. I think, elsewhere, that we are starting to gather that actually at least around 92%, certainly from anecdotal evidence we have of people being online. But radio is equally important as well. ______2443 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
4190 The President: I will take one last question on this Statement. Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. An excellent Statement, an excellent debate following it, and just to continue that so things are on the record. 4195 Would the Minister agree with me that during the negotiations, once they became practical rather than just political, a great deal has been achieved? For instance, it could be argued that the number of staff working for BBC Frontline has nearly doubled during the course of the negotiations and there is much more coverage of the Isle of Man in the north-west region. The second question I wanted to ask was: would the Minister agree with me that there is 4200 substantial documentation in the file about the differences in terms of Digital Audio Broadcasting because of the topography between the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man? And also because of the existence already of BBC Guernsey and BBC Jersey in terms of the possibilities for the development of a DAB network in the Isle of Man? Thirdly, and very significantly, would the Minister agree with me that it is quite an ambitious 4205 objective to move the Isle of Man to ‘nation status’ in BBC terms, because Guernsey and Jersey are part of a region of the English nation, despite having their own radio stations for decades? So in other words, it is important to get proper coverage of the Isle of Man, but it might need a new Royal Commission and a new Charter to actually move Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man from the status of not being under the English nation, as one of the regions under the English nation? 4210 Good luck. But does the Minister agree with me it is an important objective, but it might need a Royal Commission and a new Charter to achieve that?
The President: Reply, sir.
4215 The Minister: Thank you, I agree with the earlier comments just to put that on record – DAB does have particular issues, as I say, with our topography. Also I have talked about different transmitters regarding a TV, so that is an issue. But in terms of nationhood, I think that it is the spirit, it is the culture, it is us. We are a nation. Ultimately the paperwork, if there are any issues, would follow; but I think they get that and that 4220 is important. They get it. We are a nation on our own, in our own way. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Thank you. Now, we must try and move on a little and pick up the pace.
4.-6. Government debt issue; Government lending to Manx Utilities Authority; and Government lending to Isle of Man Steam Packet Group Ltd – Motions carried
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
4. That Tynwald sanctions the Government, acting via the Treasury, to borrow an amount not exceeding £400,000,000 by means of the issue of securities on terms approved by the Treasury, such borrowings to be repaid within 40 years. [MEMO]
5. That Tynwald authorises the Treasury to make loan advances to the Manx Utilities Authority of up to £178,000,000 to be repaid within a period set by the Treasury but not exceeding the period of any related Government debt issue and to be utilised to repay existing loan advances as agreed between the Manx Utilities Authority and the Treasury. [MEMO]
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6. That Tynwald authorises the Treasury to make loan advances to the Isle of Man Steam Packet Group Ltd of up to £160,000,000 to be repaid within a period to be set by the Treasury but not exceeding the period of any related Government debt issue and to be utilised to repay the existing loan owed by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Group Ltd and to finance the procurement of a new vessel and associated costs. [MEMO]
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, a pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. Those words, Mr President, 4225 attributed to various individuals in one form or another, ranging from Winston Churchill to John D Rockefeller, carry with them an undeniable relevance to where we as an Island nation find ourselves at this point in time and indeed go to the heart of this motion. It is fair to say that no one in this room, experienced politician to relative newcomer, would have envisaged sitting in Tynwald and Government of this magnitude, in having to deal with a 4230 global health crisis, keep our people safe, our economy stable, continue to deliver our public service commitments, and also deliver a challenging Programme for Government. In fact, I go so far as to say that this Tynwald, and indeed this Government, find itself in an almost unique position. At a time normally when thoughts would turn to winding up an administration, to completing 4235 business, to campaigning in elections, to letting things take care of themselves for a few months, we instead find ourselves in the midst of serious and significant discussions, of workstreams that must still go on through the summer, of economic recovery work that cannot stop, of a public health position that must be monitored, of a need for the Council of Ministers to meet regularly throughout the summer, and a Tynwald that is facing up to meeting its mounting challenges from 4240 home and abroad. Climate change, taxation, healthcare, housing, economic recovery, an economic review, National Insurance, COVID, borders, farming, fishing, Brexit, to name but a few. Mr President, this Government must keep working until the bitter end, there is simply too much at stake not to do so, and it is in that vein that I bring before you today our proposals to ensure that this Island is equipped as well as it can be to face up to its financial challenges and 4245 particularly those around infrastructure investment; but also that the Island is equipped, as well as it can be, to maximise its opportunities for the future. I also bring forward this proposal on the platform that significant financial expenditure has been undertaken in the past 15 months, delivering for the nation in our fight against the ravages of COVID. I have already said that we expect the financial impact on the public purse during 2020-21 to 4250 be between £200 million and £250 million, and clearly these types of figures will have an impact on our financial planning and thinking around future funding strategies. It is important that I stress to this Hon. Court that we are not in a position of needing to borrow. Our finances remains strong. Our reserve levels are good. Yes, we have seen a reduction in our cash balances, but our investment returns have held up very well and need by itself, therefore, is not the driver today. 4255 Rather, the proposal in front of the Court represents an opportunity to leverage the strength of our Islandʼs financial position in the capital markets to access an alternative source of funding at what we believe to be a favourable time, in an historically low interest rate environment, to strengthen our financial position for the future. The proposals to be considered by this Court authorise Government borrowing of up to 4260 £400 million over a period of up to 40 years. Two further motions before you also authorise key proposed purposes of the borrowing, and let me examine these in more detail. Item 5 is to refinance up to £178 million of existing Government loans to the Manx Utilities Authority. I should be clear to Hon. Members that this is existing debt owed by the Authority to the Treasury via the Consolidated Loans Fund. It represents lending made for the MUA’s capital 4265 programme over many years. This is not new MUA debt. This proposal does not alter the amount owed by the Authority and we will work with the board, if approved, to agree a repayment scheme which does not affect their financial plans or position. It also does not relate to the existing bonds issued by the Treasury for the Manx Utilities Authority. The sinking fund established to repay that ______2445 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
debt will continue, and the Authority will continue to make payments into it in accordance with 4270 its plan. The second Item, at Item 6, it is proposed to refinance up to £80 million of existing Government loans to the Isle of Man Steam Packet Group and to provide approximately £80 million of finance for the construction of the new vessel coming from the Isle of Man Steam Packet, the Manxman. Hon. Members will recall that the refinancing of the existing loan to the Steam Packet Company 4275 was debated in this Court in October 2019. This Court supported a way forward for the Steam Packet to undertake a private placement as a refinancing mechanism. At that time, the Treasury was not considering raising debt itself and hence this private financing option was indeed the appropriate solution. But times have changed. COVID is here, future funding commitments for this Government are becoming clearer and crystallising, and now that we have concluded there is an 4280 opportunity for the Treasury to borrow, it makes sense for the refinancing of this loan and the financing of the new vessel to be included in this transaction. Quite simply, this is the most effective and economic way to procure this finance. Treasury can borrow more money more cheaply than the Steam Packet can. (Mr Robertshaw: Hear, hear.) Finally, and depending on the actual amount of any debt to be issued, there will be additional 4285 funds raised, estimated to be in the region of £60 million, which are intended to meet some of the long-term investments needed to be made on our Island. So the refinancing of these existing internal loans will release up to £258 million of cash which when combined with the residual funds raised will bolster our war chest by up to £320 million to meet the numerous calls awaiting any future Government for long-term funding that we are all 4290 currently aware of. We must of course continue to invest in our Island, and this proposal ensures that we will remain well placed to do so whilst protecting the levels of our reserves, which have stood us so well during the last year. I should also reassure Members that the Treasury will be setting up a sinking fund to capture the repayments from the MUA and the Steam Packet, together with any top-up from revenue, to 4295 ensure that appropriate plans are in place to repay the debt when due. There is no intention to leave future generations saddled with debt with no plan to repay. We will remain prudent in our financial planning. Hon. Members, as part of the consideration of this debt issue the Treasury of course considered the multiple future calls on the public purse. As I announced in February, we are 4300 undertaking a strategic infrastructure needs analysis to inform a complete restructuring of our capital programme. This will enable us to understand and prioritise our capital investment and maintenance programme over the medium and long term, and from there develop an appropriate strategic financing plan. The proposal in front of this Court is one element of that plan. So this proposal represents a prudent step to make provision for the long-term infrastructure 4305 investment that we know is going to have to be made. The Budget in February contained a total of over £600 million of capital spend to be funded by Government in the future; that is before we complete our full needs analysis. We also know that we will have to make investments in our Health and Social Care infrastructure to continue the transformation work under way and to provide the world-class 4310 health and care system that our Island both needs and deserves. In addition, there is also the opportunity of meeting our climate change targets, which we must build into our future financial planning. This has the potential to require significant infrastructure investment for which funding will be required. Of course, any plans for spending will come before the approval of this Court in the budget process. This proposal does not change the level of scrutiny which Tynwald has over 4315 Government spending plans. It merely provides a route to access funding to support those plans in the future. Members will have noticed that all the uses I have mentioned have been of a long-term nature. I need to stress that the Treasury is adopting a principle that long-term funding, like the proposed debt issue, will only be used for spend of a long-term nature. It will not be used for short-term 4320 revenue purposes or to top up departmental budgets. ______2446 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Hon. Members, the public finances of our Island have demonstrated their resilience over the past 15 months. We have been able to support our economy and our people through a period of significant challenge. Now is the time, despite the difficulties around us, to look to the future and to position ourselves to meet the challenges that face us with confidence. 4325 The proposal in front of this Court will allow the Government to build its finances to meet the long-term funding challenges with confidence. It is presented on solid foundations using debt that is either already in existence or soon likely to be in existence. We should, Hon. Members, prepare our Island to take advantage of the opportunities that lie in front of us. A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; the optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. The time is 4330 right: let’s get the Island ready to maximise its opportunities in the future. I beg to move.
Three Members: Hear, hear.
4335 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: Mr Speaker. 4340 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to summarise my views on this subject by saying that I believe we are doing broadly the right thing, but I am nervous that we are not necessarily doing it in the right way. I am not against taking on Government debt and even outlined a model for it in my 2016 4345 manifesto. The last decade has been a good time to borrow money if borrowing money is needed, and it seems that that is not likely to change immediately. Whether the borrowing is essential is debateable, and the Treasury Minister acknowledges that point, but it is certainly a reasonable way forward in the funding of our infrastructure needs over the longer term. So there is definite merit in this proposal. 4350 Let me also just say I welcome the Treasury’s commitment that there will be a plan to repay this money – it is a shame that that is not in the motion. I welcome the Treasury’s commitment that this will not be used to top up revenue and that it will be spent on capital schemes and investment – it is a shame that that is not in the motion. However, when you look at the debt of the Manx Utilities Authority and the debt to the Steam 4355 Packet, there is merit in doing this. Firstly, in terms of supporting the capital financing of a new vessel, which will in turn generate its own cash flows in order to repay that borrowing – that is perfectly reasonably – and in terms of putting the MUA loan on a firmer footing so that Treasury Ministers do not use the Consolidated Loans Fund rate as a political tool, which has been known in the past. So that summarises why I believe we are doing broadly the right thing. Now let me 4360 talk a little bit about why I think we are doing it in the wrong way. My concerns are around secrecy, around lack of scrutiny of the proposal, the uncertainty of the proposal, the lack of ongoing scrutiny in how this money is to be used. In terms of uncertainty, we do not know if it is to be a bond issue, what form of securities or product it will be. We have assumed, but we do not know, that our investments will outperform the debt over the term of 4365 the borrowing, otherwise we could not have borrowed; we would have used reserves. We do not know the amount that we are borrowing, we know the maximum. We do not know the term, we know the maximum. We do not know the rate and we do not know what it will be spent on. And worryingly, nor does the public. In terms of secrecy, Tynwald Members have been asked not to share indicative rates with 4370 members of the public, which makes me very uneasy. We have been told, in secret, what the possible interest rate might be, but in approving this motion we effectively hand that decision over to Treasury without any Tynwald oversight. I would point out that we have had five years to ______2447 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
bring this motion to Tynwald, yet it is here at the penultimate sitting with two weeks’ notice, which means that Committees like the Public Accounts Committee have no opportunity to take 4375 evidence and report to Members. I should point out that such an opportunity was afforded to the scrutiny system in Jersey before it was moved to a vote there. Given that this administration has seen the ongoing fiscal deficit coming long before COVID was a factor, it is surprising that there seems a sense of urgency in doing this now. It has not been made clear what other options have been considered, and I know in my manifesto in 2016 I called 4380 for a pensioners’ bond to allow locals to invest in our future success, and I know Treasury has said that this is an expensive and administratively burdensome way of borrowing, even taking into account the Income Tax clawback. But I suspect our people would be happy with a lower rate of return than international finance houses, especially knowing what they can get at the bank at the moment. The ‘Guernsey Together Bond’ seems something worth considering, but sadly it would 4385 appear that this cannot be done. This money will then disappear into what Hon. Members know I feel is a very opaque approval process: the Manx Budget. There will be no further approvals required of Hon. Members on what these large sums of money are spent on, except the approval of the annual Budget. So in terms of what this money will be spent on, again, over the horizon there will be a 4390 significant infrastructure needs assessment – that is what we have been promised. We do already have budgets and business cases for capital projects, if you can prise them out of Treasury, albeit that these are not routinely shared with Tynwald Members. However, as it stands, it is very disappointing that we cannot have the list of projects and indicative costs that demonstrates why we need this money. It seems like we are putting the cart before the horse: we borrow the money 4395 first, and then work out what we are going to spend it on later. So we have two weeks’ notice to consider indebting a generation based on uncertain and secret information to fund a list of projects that does not yet exist. This is a big decision – why the rush without doing the planning? With more time, thought and effective scrutiny, with consideration of options, with reform of the capital spending process in the budget system, with 4400 a clear plan about how this borrowing will be used to finance those things we know will be needed over the next generation, such as delivering carbon neutrality, securing lifeline services, improving the quality of life for our citizens, the things that the Treasury Minister mentioned, I could see myself supporting this motion. However, as it stands now, I doubt that I can be suitably assured that this is being done in the right way. 4405 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I think the concept that Isle of Man Government needs to utilise debt to fund future investment 4410 and development is not a new concept – we have been here before – and if handled well I think this could be a mechanism Government can utilise as we continue to try and rebalance our public sector finances. I appreciate the logic behind this proposal, but I am slightly concerned that it might be opening the door to using debt in what I would view as an inappropriate manner. What I mean here is pretty straightforward: there is a time and a place for debt financing, and there are 4415 definitely circumstances when gearing up is not the right thing to do. Debt itself can be quite beneficial, to stimulate investment, to stimulate development. For example, if you are buying a house, you are going to take a mortgage out to buy a house, you have got an asset at the end of it. That is great, and the trade-off is you have got to repay that over time and there is a bit of cost. It is quite a sensible use of debt. You can also incur debt to cover some 4420 of your running expenses; covering a credit card or an overdraft, for example, and doing this every now and again is probably okay. But the problem is it is very easy then to get into a situation where you are essentially living continuously off that credit card or off that overdraft, and that is the situation that many western countries have found themselves in. They fund annual deficit budgets
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by borrowing. So their debt fluctuates year on year, their debt goes up, which obviously carries 4425 with it inherent risks, some of which can be pretty significant. Now, I firmly believe we should not be going down this route and I am very clear that I do not think this is what is being proposed today. The Treasury Minister has not indicated that at all in his remarks. He talked of prudence and a sinking fund to ensure repayment. He talked about ensuring this debt is considered in the round, he also mentioned capital funding and investment. 4430 But what concerns me is that the Tynwald motion makes no reference to any of this, (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) and the explanatory memorandum states:
Any residual funds will be utilised for future agreed Government spending plans including the reprioritised capital programme and other long term … such as [climate change or health].
So the residual funds I make as being around £62 million. That is a sizeable amount of money to allocate to ‘future agreed Government spending plans’. It is quite a broad statement in the memo. Now, the Minister made very clear he would not be using this to top up existing departmental 4435 budgets, but I cannot see anything that would stop them doing that. So I just want some clarity, really, on this, and for the avoidance of doubt I would very much like the Treasury Minister to confirm that not only at this point there are no intentions whatsoever that the Government will start to fund ongoing revenue expenditure using debt, there are no plans to even consider moving towards a deficit funding model, and that there will be restrictions placed 4440 on this borrowing to ensure that it cannot be used for these things in future. I am very clear that the Treasury Minister is doing this with the best of intentions, but he has no way of controlling what the next Treasury Minister may decide to do. I would really like to get a better understanding of how the Minister intends to place some restrictions and some controls around what this money can be used for, given that the motion 4445 itself does not do that, only his remarks. And to say that approval for any spending will have to go through the budget process is almost laughable, quite frankly. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The Budget is a take-it-or-leave-it document and that leaves a massive risk that a future administration says, ‘Yes, we’re going to use some of this borrowed money to plug the hole in one of our revenue funding. Maybe the pensions fund, maybe we use it for something else, who knows?’ And actually 4450 it goes through the Budget and Tynwald Members say, ‘We don’t want to do that, but actually, if I don’t vote for this, I can’t vote for the £200 million healthcare budget this year or the £100 million Education budget.’ So actually, on balance, maybe Tynwald would support that move. They do not want to do it, but actually you have got no choice. Either you defund the entire Government or you stand by and say we do not think that this particular use of a small portion, because it is 4455 only a small portion of Government funds, is appropriate. I am not comfortable to rely solely on the budget process. I think I would like something more reassuring from the Treasury Minister to tell us actually how he is going to prevent a future administration, a future Treasury Minister, from actually derailing this and saying, ‘You know what? Over a 40-year period we are going to stick with the sinking fund, we are going to make 4460 sure this stuff is repaid, it is going to be there and we are not going to put any of this stuff at risk’? So Mr President, I am very supportive of the policy behind this move, based on what the Treasury Minister has outlined, but I really would like some more reassurances around some of these concerns. Thank you very much. 4465 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.
Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I arrived today rather sceptical but eager to hear the words of the Treasury Minister. The first 4470 sign did not help, nor the ‘I want’ wish list.
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This proposal has three aspects relating to the Steam Packet, the MUA and infrastructure. I strongly believe that the debt assigned to an independently managed MUA is quite distinct, the shift of the MUA debt to the Treasury, and the same applies to the Steam Packet. The role of interest on these two large loans does not appear to be radically different from the information 4475 we have been given. This is a vast amount of money to borrow in one hit, and that really is concerning, it is the first time we have done it and we are going big. With regard to the £60 million, why is that required? Surely freeing up £250 million plus is enough. Would the Treasury Minister confirm that, following today’s vote, the £60 million can be used for infrastructure projects such as the Promenade or the Liverpool Landing Stage without 4480 the need for an additional vote? I doubt that going forward there are any real controls here. I am also concerned about the rushed nature of this and the impact on the next administration. These are our final days and we are lining up something really quite significant for not only the next administration, but the one which is going to come after that, after that, and after that, we are looking at 40 years. 4485 There are too many unknowns. There are alternatives: almost all Japan’s debt is provided by the Japanese people. What options have been considered? Local people want basic savings schemes. The Post Office needs customers. With Treasury support the Post Office could potentially provide the support that the Government is looking towards. Appropriate debt can be justified. I am not sure though this is appropriate and it looks opportunistic. 4490 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 4495 I have got a few questions for the Treasury Minister to provide the assurance that has been sought by a number of Members who have already spoken. The first one is, if this debt issue proceeds what will be the expected level of our reserves in the short to medium term, once the money is received? The second question I have is: there has been some discussion about why the international 4500 stock exchange has been used, and I wanted some assurances from the Treasury Minister, or from other Members who have yet to speak, about why that is a good arrangement and why it is perfectly adequate for this sort of arrangement. Obviously I have got a longer background in this very area, and it seems to me that it would be helpful to put on the public record why that is sufficient. 4505 The third set of assurances – and I think I have heard those already – is I think the older part of the Manx public always regarded the fact that the public believed we could not have debt issued as being in some sense a control on the boards and a control on public servants and civil servants. In other words, the process of actually borrowing money was actually helpful to reign in some of the factors that the Manx public traditionally saw as being spendthrift civil servants and public 4510 servants. I have had lots of phone calls to me saying, ‘Chris, you have to understand, that is why we are concerned.’ It is because we are losing a degree of control of politicians, basically, and I just wanted some assurance, and I think I have got that already from the Treasury Minister and members of his team. Because people do worry that the Manx Utilities Authority has not exactly got a great track record in handling capital investment. (A Member: Hear, hear.) So how is it now 4515 that we do have that under control? And secondly, some of the capital projects to do with climate change and so on have not exactly got a great track record, so what is it now that is different to reassure the Manx public that we do have this in conjunction with some quite substantial changes that have gone on over the last couple of decades but also very much in the last few years to make sure that we are in control of 4520 the actual investments that the revenue raising capital investments that I hope will result from this borrowing.
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The next point I wanted to make is that I do not think Mr Moorhouse is correct. In the period 2001 to 2004, the Isle of Man Government did guarantee £260 million of bonds; £75 million was issued by the Water Board. Liberal Vannin have always asserted it was their idea; I imagine there 4525 are some people who worked at the Water Authority at the time who would say that the officers were very much involved, but there was a history of borrowing to finance the reservoir and then also the Manx Utilities Authority did borrow £185 million to finance the gas pipeline, the gas infrastructure at the power station and some of the network facilities around it. So there is a history of borrowing. 4530 And that moves on to my speech back in the 2016 Budget, because I have had a long history of working with Mr Cannan, Mr Teare and Mr Shimmin about taking advantage of historic opportunities for locking in long-term interest rates for the benefit of the future generations, primarily. So basically it was a glass half-full speech, that was how I actually started my speech back in 2016, my glass remains full and I got quite substantial laughter, as I often did in those days, 4535 (Laughter) but my glass remains quite full: we have got a double A plus rating, 30 years of GNP growth, low unemployment, a huge National Insurance Fund, good information exchange for regulation and tax abuse purposes, a relatively diversified economy, a relatively low level of national debt and so on and so on. But the point I made in the next paragraph, when I got over to my glass half empty politician, was I did remind the Treasury Minister that day that we did have 4540 £500 million of debt in our utilities company already. It is not new, we had £500 million of debt back in 2016. We had £200 million plus in infrastructure debt through the local authorities for housing and we had a very complex and very damaging, potentially, structure at the Steam Packet, where we had, and as I put it in my Budget speech, the Steam Packet with £100 million of historic debt that future generations were going to have to deal with. So I commend the officers involved 4545 and politicians involved for taking through those challenges through the course of the five years and dealing with some of those historic debts that we had. I continued, I could not help but resist teasing Mr Teare, because Mr Teare was one who wanted to create saving project products for rich people, particularly those up in the north of the Isle of Man. I did have to remind people that he had said when I previously mentioned it the 4550 previous year that it was ‘over his dead body’ that there would ever be any bonds issued but then he brought forward just before that a motion for Tynwald to have £50 million of bonds. What I said was basically those bonds, like these ones will be, are for revenue-generating capital projects, not budget deficit financing and that is a very important point to put out there to the Manx public. They are for things like – and I could not believe that I mentioned it five years 4555 ago – housing, the Liverpool port facilities, that I first mentioned in 2015 in my Budget speech, apparently, I will have to go back and check that. And then I said that I think the Treasury Minister might still see the meaning of debt issuance differently from me, he sees it as local plus but I see it as being in a historic low interest rate environment with yields then approaching 1.2% per annum for gilts, the point being that the 4560 Treasury Minister of course makes a good point about providing an opportunity for local investors, and I hope that the Treasury Minister can assure us that it is not the same project, it could potentially be a saving project for local investors, it could be a separate project but if the state, I said, does not lock in those historic low interest rates future generations might regret it, especially given our fragile public finances situation. 4565 I went on to remind the Treasury Minister, back in 2016, that the Financial Provisions and Currency Act already allowed it for hedging, for the swap market the Treasury Minister had assured me in the previous month that they could change the interest rate from fixed to floating already and in fact the opportunity, apparently I reported back in 2016, would still be there after 2019, according to the forwards market because of the way that interest rates were tending. 4570 Okay, so to move on to Mr Watterson’s comments –
Mr Moorhouse: Would you just give way, please?
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Mr Thomas: Of course. 4575 Mr Moorhouse: Just for clarity, in terms of where I was coming from it was really the shift in the debt rather than justifiable new investment. Thank you.
4580 Mr Thomas: I am very pleased to give way and it is important. Back in 2016 we had effectively £800 million of debt even at that point, if you take the Manx Utilities, the Steam Packet and the housing and bonds, so it is a very important point that Mr Moorhouse makes. Moving on to the Hon. Speakerʼs comments, I would just say one basic point which is let’s imagine the alternative to what we are doing today. The alternative would be for every little detail 4585 of the yield curve, every little detail of the issuance process and every little detail of the mechanics to be discussed in a political environment – in the UK that would be seen as daft. We did not do that for the Steam Packet because it could have been dangerous. I once discussed with the first minister of another nation and the treasury minister of another nation about the fact that we had to purchase the Steam Packet on the floor of Tynwald, and they 4590 just could not believe that that was the case; that the oldest parliament in the world had actually got to the situation where we were discussing the purchase of an actual commercial enterprise on the floor of our parliament. In the UK, and everywhere else, technical things like exactly how you do something would be left for something like the debt management office and so on. It is very important to separate out 4595 the operations. (A Member: Hear, hear.) At the very least it should be an executive agency of Treasury. And for the same reason that Minister Ashford had to be hesitant in discussing the Corrin Memorial Home in terms of finances, exactly the same thing has happened but on a mega scale to do with this sort of issue. In summary, to deal with Mr Watterson’s challenge to the Treasury Minister, it seems to me 4600 that the last thing we want is the finer details of potentially important information for people’s perceptions of the Isle of Man to be discussed in a political place in the open before any sorts of decisions have been made. And certainly not even in the Public Accounts Committee, which has proved itself to be quite a political environment as well as an operational environment and there has to be that issue about information. 4605 Finally then, just to add my personal points in 2021, additional to the ones that I made back in 2016. The first point is that I would like the Treasury Minister to reflect, and the officers involved and all of the rest of the process to reflect on the fact that the yield curve is substantially inverted at the moment so therefore that is an opportunity and it remains an opportunity that is there. The second point is I really do think now, building on the successful changes to the Isle of Man 4610 Loans Act and the successful changes to the Consolidated Loans Fund and how we do it that we should put in place in the short to medium term a structure, some sort of executive agency structure or some sort of contractual structure, whereby we do not have to go through the process that we are going through today. So that we can actually make the big decisions, the strategic decisions in the right place in the parliament and at Budget time and leave the detailed operational 4615 decisions and the technical decisions about debt issuance to technical places and to technical people later on. So thank you very much, Mr President.
A Member: Hear, hear. 4620 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you very much, Mr President.
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Hon. Members, we need to invest in our Island. I do not think sitting on our hands is a viable 4625 option given where we are at the moment after the crisis that we have come through and the world changing so rapidly, this is what this is about ultimately. We heard the Treasury Minister highlight the £600 million in the capital programme to be funded. I understand Mr Moorhouse is concerned about this debt. I also understand he is concerned about the state of Castle Rushen High School. How is he going to fund that then? 4630 I think many people in this Court are concerned about housing, there is some heavy lifting to be done there. This is an opportunity to invest in long-term projects which will benefit the Island and everyone who lives here. It is an investment in our future. That is how I would encourage Hon. Members to look at this motion. It enables that investment to happen. Hon. Members, inflation is increasing. Those of you who follow the financial press will be well 4635 aware of that. I think most of us are aware of that; things are getting more expensive. It is quite difficult to get a bargain on many things at the moment, prices are going up all the time. There is a correlation, Hon. Members, over time between inflation and interest rates, as inflation tends to go up, interest rates tend to go up. It is a pretty well established economic trend. So now is the time, Hon. Members. Interest rates are at historical lows, we want to lock-in to that 4640 before the inflation, which most people are forecasting as a result of a post-pandemic boom is going to occur, so now is the time. That is why we cannot wait, in my view. We need to seize the opportunity that is available to us at this moment in time. I listened with interest to Mr Thomas about why we cannot micromanage the detail. He is the expert on this. We are very fortunate to have someone who has done this (A Member: Hear, 4645 hear.) in terms of sovereign debt issuance, because of course the terms will depend on the market conditions on that day. So it is not feasible to convene a sitting of Tynwald to consider that because by the time we have done that the terms will have changed, Hon. Members, it is pretty straightforward. Mr Thomas did ask about the international stock exchange and why we thought that that was 4650 a sensible exchange to have the debt listed. For those people who are not familiar with the international stock exchange it is a market-leading exchange, particularly in listed debt, and that is what we are doing. It is a cost effective option for us. There are other exchanges that we could use but, Hon. Members, it would probably increase the cost and, as you would expect, we want to do this in the most efficient way for the Isle of Man taxpayer. And I can tell you that 25% of all 4655 UK real estate investment trusts (REITs) are listed on the international stock exchange, as are other large debt issues, so it is a highly reputable exchange and it has an office here in Douglas, which I think is also helpful for us. Actually we could use this debt issuance to fix other issues that Hon. Members would like fixed. So we could help the Post Office, I think was mentioned, we could issue a pensioners’ bond to 4660 help pensioners who are getting lower rates of return in their bank accounts. Hon. Members, I can see why that might appear attractive. I personally think that is the wrong thing to do because I think our obligation to the taxpayer is to provide the most efficient, low-cost, debt offering. If we were to do a post office bond or a pensioners’ bond it would be a higher cost, Hon. Members. We know that from the paper that was presented to this Hon. Court when we looked at the funding 4665 of the Steam Packet transaction. Fundamentally, it is the same dynamics that are there, so it is possible to do but it would just increase the cost significantly. I do not think that is the sensible thing to do. You might think it is but I would strongly urge you against that because not only will it increase the cost, it may also have potentially unforeseen consequences. So if Government issues a pensioners’ bond or a post office bond at a high rate of interest then 4670 you would expect that people will move their money from their local bank accounts or building society accounts or savings into Government bonds. That is what has happened in other small jurisdictions. Also what has happened in other small jurisdictions is subsequently the bank said, ‘Well, actually, we need to stop providing mortgages because our balance sheet has been weakened by the government,’ and that is not very helpful, Hon. Members, because we want the 4675 banks to provide mortgages so that they can enable people to purchase their own homes. We ______2453 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
want the banks to be able to lend money to businesses to allow them to invest in their future as well. So I would strongly urge Hon. Members to support this motion. It has, in my view, been well thought through, is the right thing to do and it is all about investing in the future of this Island. 4680 Thank you, Mr President.
A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Thank you. 4685 Hon. Member, Ms Edge.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I was not going to say too much and I am not going to say too much but my biggest concern with all of this is who is going to control it. (A Member: Hear, hear.) 4690 We have seen what has happened with the MUA in the past, we know the consequences of what we are still all having to pay for. Are the directors of the MUA going to be responsible for this? Because I personally believe they should be. They are the ones that need to work hard and pay back at the right rate. I have spoken to the Treasury Minister with regard to this, we would give them £90 million, we 4695 have just got rid of it. They have got a pricing strategy that did not include going out to borrow at a different rate. I understand that the rate that the MUA are paying back currently to Treasury is 2%. If that is correct, I want them to continue to do that to make sure that the pricing strategy and the debt is reduced quicker, if possible, for the Manx people. I have not got a concern, having listened to the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, and 4700 the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas, who have made it clearer as to why it is a good thing to do. What I am concerned about is not knowing what it will be used on and what you are going to utilise it for. Is this money going to suddenly transfer over to the Development Agency overnight? I do not know. Who is going to tell me? I would like to know certainly if that is the situation. 4705 I also feel that we are putting all our eggs in one basket and whether really we should be looking at this as split three ways or split the two ways. The Steam Packet know their situation. They know they are buying a boat, surely they have already been planning for that and suddenly here we are, Isle of Man Government comes along and we can do it a different way, and again are the directors going to be responsible or is it purely going to be all on the taxpayer of the Isle of 4710 Man? Because that is whose money this is, it is nobody in here’s money. Well we do contribute to it, we do! The other concern I would like to ask and I have not really had the opportunity to ask is why did we not just underwrite the loans, why is Government not just allowing the MUA to go off and do this themselves or the Steam Packet to do it themselves and we underwrite it and we look at 4715 it and control it that way? I do not know, I would like to know why we are not doing that. Also with regard to the actual terms, what percentage of the money that is being raised will be for fees broken down? What will the commissions be? What will the net receipt to Government be when this transaction takes place? I do have concerns and I do need to be convinced. We are in here today trying to approve 4720 £400 million but what we have not addressed is the pension debt that the Isle of Man people are having to pay – huge. The people are going to be paying that forever and a day. We have not addressed the increased costs in salaries budgets, we have not addressed that. We have got Manx Care. We have transferred everything over to Manx Care but has the DHSC reduced in size? No, it has not. So all we are doing is layering up all the time, increasing the costs to the Manx taxpayer 4725 and that really does concern me. I completely understand why you would want to do this at the present time but when there are other big major issues that need addressing as well and we have not been successful in doing ______2454 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
that, but in a two-week window we can be successful at doing this, that concerns me. We can move and be quick when it suits but on the serious issues for the people of the Island we cannot. 4730 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Dr Allinson.
Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr President. 4735 It is nice to be in a room of optimists, because so far I have not heard anyone object to the idea of borrowing to invest in the future of this Island. The issues I have heard are on the governance of that borrowing, which will go forward 40 years. I would also like to thank the officers for dealing with some of the key technical issues that Members have brought up privately, because what this is doing is allowing the Treasury to go out 4740 to the market. So some of the questions about what are the terms going to be, what are the commissions going to be, cannot be answered at the moment until we go out there and get the best deal for the people of the Isle of Man. We are still in the worst health crisis and one of the worst economic crises this Island or this world has faced in a century and it would be very easy for us to withdraw into austerity, into being 4745 insular and into just trying to make sure we have enough to keep going. What I see from this motion is optimism and dynamism, and actually taking the bold step at a time of crisis, not to think about the past, but to invest in the future. The mantra of building back better gets a bit clichéd, but what is the alternative? Stay as you are and fester? We cannot afford to do that, both as a Government, as a Tynwald, but particularly as a country. We have gone through too much in the 4750 last 15 months to leave things as they are. We must learn the lessons, invest in the future and move forward to make sure that we seize the opportunities that the Treasury Minister has commented on, and actually make sure that we invest so that we can carry on seizing opportunities as they arrive in the future. Thank you, Mr President. 4755 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quine.
Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to congratulate the Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, the Treasury Minister, for 4760 bringing this opportunity to maximise our response to the way we look to manage our future by way of the £400 million debt issue. We should be thankful that we have the benefit of such as my hon. friends the Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, and the Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas, being able to address this Hon. Court with their undoubted expertise on this issue. The reasons for this debt issue are prudent. As the Minister alluded to, the Government can 4765 borrow money at a more competitive rate and the reasons for this financing with the MUA and the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company being structured to be repaid over a workable period are also a prudent undertaking. It is not a cavalier undertaking, where we live for today and leave the bill for our children and grandchildren. Financing the construction of the new Manxman through this method is a sagacious way of doing so. The £80 million facility that would be available to the 4770 Steam Packet should they themselves have had to sought to undertake the financing through their own arrangement, which was historically what they had to do. But it goes further than that, like my hon. friend the Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins said. We need to invest in our future for the infrastructure projects that we know lie ahead. I, too, share my hon. friend’s concern about the impending rise in inflation just as incurred 4775 following both World Wars, but as he astutely put it, now is the time to get on with it. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.
______2455 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. 4780 I had not intended to speak on this very sensible motion, but it does have my full support for the Treasury Minister. I do believe, as the Member for Douglas South has just said, it is a very sensible and prudent step. However, I was brought to my feet just to clarify the position from a Manx Utilities’ perspective in my role as Chairman of that organisation. I just want to make it clear, for the benefit of those 4785 listening and for Hansard, that there is no change in Manx Utilities’ financial position as a result of this transaction. Manx Utilities already has an indebtedness to Isle of Man Government and the £178 million that has been authorised under Item 5 of this agenda is simply going to refinance that existing loan. So Manx Utilities, before this transaction, owes Isle of Man Government £178 million; after this transaction it owes Isle of Man Government £178 million. 4790 The President: Mr Thomas, are you wishing the Member to give way?
Mr Thomas: Very briefly …
4795 The President: That is for him to say.
Mr Baker: Would you like to ask me to give way, Mr Thomas …
Mr Thomas: Please could I have leave, Mr President, to ask a brief question of the Chair? 4800 Mr Robertshaw: Well, one of you sit down!
Mr Thomas: Could I ask a brief question of the Chair? (Interjection by the Speaker)
4805 Mr Baker: Yeah, go on! (Laughter)
Mr Thomas: Just very briefly, does the Chair agree with me, to address Ms Edge’s points, that it could be that the pricing strategy for the utilities needs to be reviewed after the unchanged capital structure is readjusted? 4810 Mr Baker: No, I do not agree with that, Mr Thomas. The pricing strategy has been set and it will be reviewed at the right time. This transaction has no impact on Manx Utilities’ balance sheet and no need to impact the pricing strategy. So that is a complete red herring, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify that. 4815 So Manx Utilities is not borrowing additional money from the market. Manx Utilities is using this money that Isle of Man Government will provide it with to refinance an existing debt to Isle of Man Government. It simply means that Isle of Man Government ends up with a £178 million cash boost from that particular element of the transaction. So I just wanted to make that really clear. This is not about Manx Utilities, it is indeed not about the Steam Packet Company’s existing 4820 debt either. It is about future capital funding and it is about the future capital funding of the Manxman. With that, Mr President, I fully endorse the approach being brought forward here by my hon. friend from Ayre and Michael.
4825 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Greenhill.
Mr Greenhill: Thank you, Mr President; and as usual, I will just use a few words. With my international banking background, I see this as a prudent, timely, sensible, low-cost opportunity for the Island, and I fully support that we take this forward. 4830 ______2456 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: I call on the Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you very much indeed, Mr President. Can I thank all Hon. Members who have contributed to the debate today. 4835 I think it is useful to pick up on a couple of critical points that have flowed through from some Hon. Members who, by implication of the way that they have spoken, would perhaps give the false impression that this is predominantly new debt. Large parts of this are already in existence. The MUA debt is already in existence. The Steam Packet already owe the Government £80 million. Yes, we have to get another £80 million to refinance the ship and yes, as part of this proposal in 4840 front of you, there will be additional residual amount of an estimated £60 million, but large parts of this are existing debt. This is not putting the nation into new debt. This is really, I think from Treasury’s perspective, converting quite a large chunk of debt to equity for the future to ensure that we are best placed to maximise our opportunities in the future. Now, Hon. Members have said ‘what about the future?’ I cannot control the future or the 4845 future actions of a Government or Governments beyond this or the next administration or beyond that, but we can take the opportunity that presents us, as MHKs, as Members of Tynwald, to help do what we believe to be best for the Island in our term of office and this is an opportunity that I present to you today to do what I believe to be best for the Island. Indeed, Mr President, speaking of Tynwald, we are a Tynwald of many talents, and that is why 4850 today I am absolutely delighted that the Hon. Member sat next to me from Douglas Central has had the opportunity to use his experience and expertise to contribute to the debate. We have debates in this place, Mr President, as we know, where actually we draw great value from the previous experience of Members who, for whatever reason, have personal or work experience of the matter in hand. On this particular occasion it is great to recognise the financial analysis 4855 qualifications that the Hon Member has, including being in the Association of International Bond Dealers. I do want just to turn to his remarks in particular, which I think are pertinent. I know he has been pressing this issue for some considerable time, but I think that it is worthwhile reflecting on two critical points that he has made, both about the purpose of the debt, or the equity that will 4860 be injected into the Government’s reserves and also I think the broader point that he is making about Tynwald in this particular case really having little choice but to leave a lot of the detail around this to the experts. In many ways we talk about a debt issue of up to 40 years, but of course that in itself is open for determination at the markets, as are other critical matters around rates, etc. I think that it is useful to hear that. 4865 The Hon. Member actually started off by asking me the question about what would our reserves look like in the early short to medium term, if this was approved by Tynwald, and indeed market conditions were suitable for this money to be raised. I can tell Hon. Members, as it currently stands today, the estimated short-term expected level of our invested reserves would then rise to approximately £2 billion, as it currently stands, from the levels that I have been 4870 informed that we currently have on the market, or the market values that we currently have, plus the additional money will take us just over the £2 billion mark. I think we should take a lot of confidence from the fact that this proposal will significantly bolster our reserves and our access to our reserves in this way, and I think that is an important point to make. Just to reflect on some of the other contributions, I do understand the Speaker’s issues, but I 4875 do think that as my hon. friend Mr Thomas points out, he is looking for a level of detail and analysis and scrutiny that really goes beyond what I think is appropriate for Tynwald to both spend time analysing but also to expect proper answers for, until this issue is taken to the market. I think it is one of those issues where I think that Tynwald needs to think about the overall strategic approach that is being taken, the opportunity for the approach to be delivered and of course it will be for 4880 the Treasury and the Treasury Minister to justify the actual application of that once it hits the market.
______2457 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
I think Mr Hooper’s point about longer-term dangers of Governments using debt to support revenue, for example, and that is probably predominantly revenue spending, does carry a lot of merit. I think again going back to Mr Thomas, who really highlights the view that actually if 4885 Government is going to capitalise in this way, then it really does need to be looking at revenue- generating capital projects as a very active source of investment for this type of bond, and I concur. I concur with the Hon. Member that that would indeed be entirely appropriate and you could apply that, indeed, to a lot, I expect, of what may be in plans for climate change when they are formalised. 4890 I think the Hon. Member, my good friend Mr Moorhouse, again, implied it is a vast amount of money in one hit, but again, I need to go back to my point: this is not necessarily new money. This debt basically exists, or will exist. If it does not get approved, the Steam Packet will have to go to the market and find the debt because they will need to crack on with their ships. I think Ms Edge from Onchan addressed the issue of why do we not just underwrite the Steam 4895 Packet: because, fundamentally, even with Government just underwriting it, it is still a slightly more complex proposal for the Steam Packet and it is likely to cost them more money, which in turn, I expect, will then find its way through down to the users of the Steam Packet and potentially, one could argue – and it is not necessarily for me to determine how the Steam Packet set its prices, but one could argue having that lesser burden I hope will enhance the pricing options for the 4900 directors when they come to examine what are the best options for both the Company and for the commitment that we have to try and deliver in the best interests of the Island. I thank Dr Allinson for his support, his recognition that we should now seize the opportunities to want to prepare the Island to deliver a better future for our people in terms of meeting the challenges, and not only just meeting those challenges but finding the opportunities within those 4905 challenges to deliver for the people of this Island. I also thank Hon. Member, Mr Quine, for his contribution. I thank my seconder who takes a similar vein as to the opportunity and, indeed, my colleague from Ayre and Michael, who really sought to place confidence that this does not change the MUA’s financial balance, or financial position in terms of its balance sheet and arguably, in some ways, 4910 potentially strengthens its financial position if, indeed, we expect to encounter the market conditions that are available in terms of presenting better longer term options around debt issue, because if one looks at the interest rate that is being applied at the moment from the Treasury, that of course is subject to fluctuations in the future if interest rates were to move around us. So the Treasury’s interest rate that is being applied could potentially be subject to fluctuation. So 4915 actually, I believe it is going to potentially put the MUA’s debt onto a better and firmer footing if the conditions indeed exist in the marketplace for those to do so. Mr President, I hope I have addressed Members’ concerns. Whether they agree or not, I have sought to respond to, I hope, most people in the room. I hope Hon. Members will understand the proposal in front of them, I am sure that they do. I accept, and I go to the Speaker’s point, a lot of 4920 the detail will not be delivered until the market determines what it is prepared to do in the circumstances, but that will be left to the experts. And, of course, if we believe that market conditions are not appropriate when we get there, if Tynwald does indeed approve it today, Treasury would not be seeking to take it forward if there was a fundamental shift in that respect. I would say to Hon. Members that we should grab the opportunity, that we should look 4925 optimistically for the future, and we should prepare the Island for the future in a debt issue that is based on very solid foundations. This is not a reckless move. This is largely debt for equity based on solid foundations for repayment in the future that will, I hope, give the next administration and administrations to follow the best chance possible to maximise our opportunities. I beg to move. 4930 Mr Robertshaw: Hear, hear.
______2458 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Hon. Members, I put to the Court, first, Item 4. Those in favour, say aye; against, no.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 22, Noes 2
FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson Mr Moorhouse Mr Ashford Mr Speaker Mr Baker Mrs Barber Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Christian Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Thomas
4935 The Speaker: Mr President, in the Keys, 22 votes for, 2 against.
In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill None Mr Henderson The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mr Mercer Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe
The President: In the Council, 8 for, none against. The motion carries. Item 5. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 24, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson None Mr Ashford Mr Baker Mrs Barber Mr Boot Mrs Caine ______2459 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Christian Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
4940 The Speaker: Mr President, on this occasion, 24 votes for, none against in the Keys.
In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill None Mr Henderson The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mr Mercer Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe
The President: Council, 8 for, none against. Carried unanimously. Item 6. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
7. Revenue Contingency Fund – Motion carried
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That Tynwald authorises the Treasury to transfer an additional £20,000,000 into the Revenue Contingency Fund from the General Operating Account and the Reserve Fund in the year ending 31st March 2022, and to expend such sums as required and in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Revenue Contingency Fund. [MEMO]
The President: Item 7, Revenue Contingency Fund, the Minister for Treasury.
4945 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, a key element of our financial strategy for managing the costs of the pandemic has been through the use of our Contingency Fund. This has allowed the Government to react as required in a rapid fashion where additional resources have been required. In our most recent Budget, presented in February this year, we had planned for the opening 4950 balance of the Contingency Fund to be £12 million. However, due to the required funding last year, it is now expected to be £2 million lower than that. In the Budget, however, we received ______2460 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
approval to top up the contingency fund by a further £10 million and anticipated spending of £15 million, but this of course was anticipated before the implementation of Circuit Breaker 2 in March this year. 4955 Since the start of April this financial year, we have so far spent £5 million on support schemes that will be internally fund financed, and further expenditure will be required as support for the affected sectors continues, and there are likely to be other ongoing costs. At present, I anticipate that the Contingency Fund has sufficient resources to cope with known commitments. However, Mr President, given that second lockdown and with parliament in recess over the summer months 4960 and in October, I do believe it is prudent to seek Tynwald approval now to top up the Contingency Fund by a further £20 million. I wish to make it totally clear that access to this funding will only be available to Departments if absolutely required and in terms with the reference of the fund. Mr President, details of all fund claims for last year will be provided in the detailed Government 4965 Accounts, the Light Blue Book, which should be laid before Tynwald in July. In summary, Mr President, then, this is an action that has been taken for prudency to ensure that adequate funds are available should further actions be required to manage the COVID-19 situation, particularly were something to occur while parliament is in recess. I believe it is essential that this flexibility is in place, given the uncertainties that are being 4970 faced. I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. 4975 I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: I put to the Court Item 7. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.
8. Proposal to review harms caused by illicit substances – CoMin Substance Misuse Steering Group Report – Motion carried
The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs to move:
That Tynwald approves the proposed approach for a review of the harms caused by illegal drugs set out in the Report on a proposal for a review of the harms caused by illicit drugs [GD No 2021/0038]; and agrees that further information on the likely costs and timescales for such a review be submitted to Tynwald no later than October 2021.
The President: Item 8, Minister for Justice and Home Affairs to move. 4980 The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. Is the Treasury Minister wishing to …?
Mr Cannan: No, no! 4985 The Minister: Any more money?
Mr Cannan: Getting ahead of myself.
______2461 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
4990 The Minister: If you have got any more money I am sure we can accept it! (Laughter) A new school would be nice. (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) Mr President, I am very pleased to be able to bring this proposal to this Hon. Court for a review into the harms caused by illicit drugs. I thank the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper, for his original motion in seeking to have a document developed that will stimulate a debate on how we 4995 legislate, regulate and treat the harms caused by illicit drugs. The document before you sets out an approach that will be followed in developing a report for this Hon. Court. I do not intend to rehearse the arguments here which may be used in such a debate. I will say, though, that this is a complex and broad subject, scope is key and sticking to the scope will be important for the authors of this review. 5000 There is also a good deal of expert knowledge required to help inform the review and the document will need to have external input. Officers will be seeking expressions of interest for that work, which will then inform the final timescale for this completion. This will though be a matter for consideration for the next administration in any event. It is though a matter worth objective and thorough and detailed consideration, and I hope the proposal before you will support those 5005 aims. Mr President, I beg to move.
The President: Mr Hooper.
5010 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I am more than happy to second this – I am assuming that is why I am standing up! (Laughter) I am actually quite happy that this has come back on time, actually. That is quite nice to see. I am broadly supportive of the scope inside the Report as well, but I would just like to touch on one note of caution. 5015 So this sort of review has been done in numerous places. It is generally an evolving picture, I think, around the world, and the report itself, like the Minister has just outlined, proposes taking quite a broad approach to external input and data collection, which is definitely the right approach. But I would just like to caution against falling into the trap that I think Guernsey fell into when they did their recent review of drug harms, and that was last year. They specifically excluded 5020 from the scope of the report consideration of legal regulation of controlled drug markets. Instead, they only went as far as reviewing the potential for depenalisation or decriminalisation of drug markets. Now, both of those have potential, but they also have significant weaknesses when you do not look at them within the full context of the full remit of potential options. So really, I would just like some confirmation that everything is on the table at this point, and 5025 that is the whole purpose of this review: to make sure that our approach to drug policy is taken at a public health level, a health-based, harms-based approach, rather than following the current model, and that really we will be following the evidence on this. We are not going in with any preconceived ideas; we need to develop the picture, I think, as things go on. I would also just like a little bit of clarification on the wording in the scope because the scope 5030 states:
… the paper should focus on drugs where harm is considered to be greatest.
Great principle, I think, but actually part of the problem is there are drugs out there where the comparative level of harm is quite low and yet the way these are treated by the law is not producing the right outcome. Cannabis is probably the most well-known example of this. We all know that with all drugs there is harm and the harm caused by some drugs is lower than is caused 5035 by other drugs. In this case, we have illegal drugs that arguably cause less harm than legal drugs, like alcohol or tobacco, and I am not just talking about harm to the individual here. I am talking about societal harm as well.
______2462 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
So I am just a little bit concerned that the scope might inadvertently focus away from some of these issues, and I would just like some confirmation that this will not be the case and that the 5040 review will also address all of those drugs that may be comparatively lower levels of harm, but actually drugs that we do have serious issues with on the Island and we are not just going to focus on some of those that harm the most, we are going to focus on looking at the ones that matter to us here. Thank you very much, Mr President. I commend this Report to Tynwald. 5045 The Speaker: Hear, hear.
The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson.
5050 Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. I, too, welcome this Report and the proposal. I would just like to endorse what the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper, has said about making sure that we really focus on the societal harm aspect of this, which I think, as he has rightly said, is not necessarily always linked to the drug that will cause the most health harm or physical harm. 5055 The one thing that I picked up in the wording is the suggestion that there will be engagement with drug offenders in the Prison, which I agree with and absolutely commend, but I would also request that there is serious engagement with our young vulnerable people who often end up in our secure unit remanded or serving sentences, because Hon. Members, we already have situations where the surrounding risk and harms from substance misuse mean we have young 5060 vulnerable people who will act in a way to make sure they get themselves put into that secure unit to avoid the wider risks to themselves and others they associate with. I absolutely think that we must follow the evidence, but we must understand the entire picture in order that good policy comes forward to address, not only the health harms from substance misuse, but all of these wider risks and harms. (Mr Callister: Hear, hear.) 5065 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Peake.
Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. 5070 I, too, welcome the Report and hopefully the future debate on this and I think there is a point here about the scope really. It does talk in here, quite often is referred to, the review of the harms caused by illegal drugs. Well, that is true, but also it is actually the illegal drugs that people turn to to cover the harm that is caused to them, and that is a point I think which perhaps people do not fully understand. I have seen that first hand from some of the work I have done. So we all 5075 perhaps use alcohol to smooth out the difficulties of the day perhaps, but there are some people that actually turn to illicit drugs to actually cover the pain that has been caused to them by their own families, by institutions, and this is a big and important subject. So I do welcome the Report and I welcome the adult debate that needs to happen in the future. Thank you, Mr President. 5080 Several Members: Hear, hear.
The President: Minister to reply.
5085 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. If I can start off, what I will say is that hopefully we can use today’s Hansard as part of the consideration for the Review so we can actually put in that as part of when we are going out for that review, to take into consideration all the comments that Hon. Members have said. I think one of the other areas that the Hon. Member for North Douglas said about those young people – and ______2463 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
5090 the Hon. Member of Council – who have suffered these ill effects and what we can actually do to assist them. I am very much aware there is not enough resource there at the moment to help these vulnerable people and I think that is possibly one of the things that will be the benefit of this: actually helping those young people who are struggling now. In the appendix it actually does go through, when we are talking about some of these 5095 substances, about the level of harm. So I think in the appendix of this it has been quite helpful to identify some of those drugs that we can actually look at. So with that, Mr President, I beg to move.
The President: I put to the Court the motion at Item 8. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. 5100 The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
9. Review of the National Insurance Scheme – Report and public consultation – Debate commenced
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That Tynwald receives the final report on the Review of the National Insurance Scheme [GD No 2021/0040] and notes that Treasury intends to undertake a public consultation.
The President: Item 9, Review of the National Insurance Scheme, Minister for Treasury to move.
The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the current National Insurance 5105 Scheme was introduced in 1948 and its structure has not significantly changed since then. At that time, individuals tended to have very few jobs throughout their working lives, and it was unusual to have multiple jobs at the same time. Going to work abroad was almost unheard of, as was working past state pension age. In recent years, we have seen changes in the way individuals work. For example, the emergence of the gig economy leading to a new category of employment status 5110 of workers, more individuals working past state pension age, employers looking to reward employees by other means than cash and the emergence of owner-managed businesses which give greater flexibility as to how individuals are paid, and in the last 12 months we have seen an increase in remote working with a significant number of individuals working for foreign employers whilst remaining here on the Island. If this will last and what the implications are for National 5115 Insurance revenues remain as yet unclear. The last year has highlighted the importance of the National Insurance Scheme as a form of insurance, with significant sums being paid out of the Manx National Insurance Fund for the MERA and Salary Support schemes. This has also shown the need for employers and individuals to keep up to date with their National Insurance payments. National Insurance is the third largest source 5120 of Government revenue and in 2021 this amount received was £219 million. This funds the state pension and other benefits, such as Incapacity Benefit and Jobseeker’s Allowance, and also other benefits, such as the Nursing Care Contribution. Around £40 million is also paid to the NHS. To allow us to ensure that the National Insurance system is fit for purpose for the future, the report set before you today was commissioned to help inform future policy debate and direction. 5125 There are many challenges facing us, not least the ongoing pressure of funding pensions and contributory benefits, but also the long-term requirements for health and social care on the Island. To meet these challenges, it is likely that future administrations will want to review and possibly alter the operation of the National Insurance Fund. I hope that the detail within the report and debate today will start to shape the future policy framework; and to assist with this, the report ______2464 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
5130 before us today highlights there are aspects of the current scheme that could be changed to address perceived fairness issues and remove some of the anomalies that exist. This could also allow for more alignment of the National Insurance and Income Tax treatment if this was seen as a good direction of travel. Mr President, the report does highlight that changing rates and thresholds could be used to 5135 address issues of fairness and also to increase income, but to do this in isolation could lead to behavioural changes by those who could control how they are remunerated and the cost of such increases would not be shared equally. I will come back to this point later on. But increasing rates of National Insurance has been seen by some as a quick and easy way of raising additional revenues, primarily to help fund the Health Service. But what is often missed is that currently it is 5140 only the working population under state pension age that does actually pay National Insurance. (Mr Robertshaw: Hear, hear.) One of the most striking differences between National Insurance and Income Tax is that employees and the self-employed are exempt from paying National Insurance once they reach state pension age. When this exception was originally introduced, anyone over state pension age 5145 and working had their state pension reduced by an amount which depended on their earnings. This earnings reduction however was abolished in 1989, but the National Insurance exception still remains, and it should be noted that employers still do pay National Insurance in these cases. I think we need to ask the question, in a time of changing working patterns and increased life expectancy, does this exemption, for instance, remain valid? 5150 We should be rightly proud, Mr President, of the entrepreneurial spirit that the Isle of Man encourages and I understand that setting up and running a business is a challenge, especially in the first few years, and that Government should do all it can to help during this initial period. However, we must also ensure that individuals who work and contribute to the National Insurance Scheme that will provide support to them with their needs, and should they need it with benefits 5155 such as Jobseeker’s and Incapacity Benefit, is there for them. Owner-managed businesses are able to structure the way in which business profits are distributed so that they significantly reduce the amount of National Insurance that they pay and in many instances they will pay no National Insurance at all. Yet they still receive the same entitlements to pension and benefits as those who do pay National Insurance. (Mr Robertshaw: 5160 Hear, hear.) Whilst those who are self-employed are liable to pay National Insurance contributions, they still pay less than employees who have had the same level of income. The self-employed have traditionally paid a lower rate of National Insurance, as they receive considerably less state pension and were not entitled to Jobseeker’s. Since the 2019 reforms to the state pension, the 5165 only significant difference is that they are now not entitled to Jobseeker’s. I must point out, though, during the current pandemic they have, in some cases, received much more support than employees themselves. (Mr Robertshaw: Exactly.) If we need to raise more National Insurance in the future, we must ensure that we remove opportunities, I would suggest, for individuals to avoid payment by restructuring their businesses. For example, it would be very easy for a self-employed 5170 business to incorporate and then pay no National Insurance at all. Mr President, the Island faces many challenges in the future, as we have just outlined in some of our previous debates; some immediate, and some that will not be with us for a while. The immediate challenges are obvious: how do we continue to grow the economy and attract people to the Island to work; how do we remain competitive in a global market; and what will be the 5175 impacts of continuing global regulation? It is against this background of course that we must remember that we need to continue to fund our current level of services, and the longer term pressures, indeed, around the sustainability of the Manx National Insurance Fund and long-term care provision, whilst to some might seem distant, still need to be addressed, I would suggest, by the next administration. 5180 Mr President, the task of reforming the National Insurance Scheme will not be easy, and indeed even simple changes can be difficult to achieve, as the UK government found out only recently, ______2465 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
when they tried to merge the class 2 and class 4 payments into one. But we must not, I would suggest, lose focus of part of the goal of this report in front of you, which is to ensure that we explore the options available to ensure that the National Insurance Fund and system on the Island 5185 is equitable and fair. One point that was made clear to us by the authors of the report was the need to consult clearly with the public as to why anyone needs to make changes and indeed to have a proper communication strategy with the public in place. It is my intention at present, should the report be approved today, to go out to consultation over the summer months on the potential structural 5190 reforms identified in the report, so that the new administration will be able to pick this up later in the year. In conclusion, Mr President, we have reformed our state pension provision. We have commenced the reform of our healthcare system, and it is only right that the mechanism for funding these provisions is also subject to reform. This will ensure that it not only continues to 5195 deliver the level of funding required now, but also that National Insurance delivers the level of funding required into the future. I commend the report to the Court, look forward to the debates that will ensure on the future and will help to ensure that this important and sometimes misunderstood revenue stream continues to deliver the services that the Island’s people demand. 5200 I beg to move.
Mr Robertshaw: Hear, hear.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Peake. 5205 Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Barber.
5210 Mrs Barber: Thank you, Mr President. I am not going to talk for long about National Insurance, I am sure you will all be glad to know, as much of what has been said in previous debates on this topic in this Hon. Court is borne out in the report before us today. A couple of key areas that I do feel are worth repeating are that our levels at which NI becomes 5215 payable via the lower earning threshold mean that those on lower incomes are disproportionately affected and that there are mechanisms whereby, as the Treasury Minister has already spoken of, some who can afford to pay NI are able to structure their employment in such a way as to not pay at all. I am very clear that this element of review should not be about revenue raising, but about fairness and equality. (Mr Perkins: Hear, hear.) 5220 However, to undertake a useful public consultation, we must first reaffirm the principles of our National Insurance system, where it fits in the wider sphere of taxation in our economy, what elements of income should be subject to National Insurance, what additional funding might be needed to meet the demands of our NI Fund in the future, and ultimately how we ensure that important elements, such as the future funding of nursing, residential and home care, are 5225 incorporated into any discussions. (A Member: Hear, hear.) At present this topic sits within Health Transformation, but we cannot, and in fact, more importantly, we must not, look at each component element of NI reform in isolation. Therefore, I am circulating an amendment which has been ‘minorly’ amended since it was last circulated to Members via email. So just to confirm, there is a tiny change in the first element just to spread 5230 out those elements that are within it. And it now will read:
And [Tynwald] is of the opinion that – further work on and reforms of the National Insurance Scheme would be incomplete without consideration of:
______2466 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
- the principles of a national insurance system; - its role in the wider economic and taxation context; - what sources of income will form part of national insurance; - what further funding may be required from the Manx National Insurance Fund; and … prior to any public consultation, the Treasury should consider the next steps on National Insurance reforms in conjunction with the long term economic plan for the Island, taking into account future funding requirements for public services, including health and social care funding.
Mr President, I would encourage Hon. Members to support the amendment in my name to allow focus on the bigger picture of National Insurance, what it is, where it comes from and what it is for. I beg to move:
To leave out all the words after ‘That Tynwald receives the final report on the Review of the National Insurance Scheme [GD No 2021/0040]’ and add the words: ‘and is of the opinion that – further work on and reforms of the National Insurance Scheme would be incomplete without consideration of: - the principles of a national insurance system; - its role in the wider economic and taxation context; - what sources of income will form part of national insurance; - what further funding may be required from the Manx National Insurance Fund; and that prior to any public consultation, the Treasury should consider the next steps on National Insurance reforms in conjunction with the long term economic plan for the Island, taking into account future funding requirements for public services, including health and social care funding.’
5235 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. 5240 I beg to second the amendment in the name of my friend and colleague, Mrs Barber, and I would hope that there is nothing too much in here that would give the Government too many headaches, because this is really just putting a little bit more meat on the bone as to the sort of areas that we would hope that the consultation would cover. In seconding the amendment that Mrs Barber has brought forward, I have to say this chimes a 5245 lot with the recent findings and the recent report of the Poverty Committee, which we will be debating next month, in terms of working out what these provisions are for and grounding that in our society. It has not really been reaffirmed in our society for some 60, 70, 80 years, really, since this notion of National Insurance … well actually, over a century in terms of the principles of a National Insurance Scheme. 5250 I think to understand what it is for, what we hope it will deliver, goes hand in hand with the last element of the amendment, which is about the future funding requirements. What people do want from it, as well. What do they want in terms of health, in terms of social care, in terms of social insurance? What is the pension that they want the state to provide, and how is that going to be funded, as well as how it will help fund the Health Service, if at all, noting the points earlier 5255 about the role of Income Tax versus National Insurance. But this also does need putting into that wider economic context; the wider economic and taxation context that the Treasury Minister talked about. I think it is incumbent on all of us to make sure that the public are properly informed in that, and whilst the report goes a long way in terms of providing a lot of those facts and figures, there is a lot more to be done in terms of making 5260 that understandable. I would hope that this consultation will be including things such as town hall
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meetings … can be a little bit more discursive, as well as just a cold document that goes out to the public and expect them to digest a lot of economic analysis. I think those conversations are going to be vitally important and certainly will form a lot of the conversations on the doorsteps over the summer. 5265 So with that, Mr President, I would hope that this will give some guidance as to the sort of areas that will be helpful in guiding that consultation, and certainly builds on and supports the principles outlined in both the Treasury’s report and the Poverty report. Thank you, Mr President.
5270 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Robertshaw.
Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. As somebody who has banged on for a long time about the importance of this subject and this Review, I therefore warmly welcome the motion before us and thank the Treasury Minister for 5275 embarking on what will be a very considerable task in the future, and, I would argue, quite difficult to navigate, because there are a lot of complex elements to this that need to be considered and fully engage with the public of the Isle of Man. I am happy to support the amendment in the name of my hon. colleague, Mrs Barber, simply because it helps to articulate the degree of complexity that we face in dealing with this very important matter. 5280 I just close to draw attention, as did Mrs Barber – I think it was Mrs Barber –the issue related to the unfairnesses that currently exist, and as identified as well by the Treasury Minister. But particularly the one with regard to the differential in the upper threshold between ourselves and the UK. I recall very well, when we had the presentation in the Barrool Suite, I asked the question why is the threshold lower than the UK, and stunned silence came the firm reply, as I recall, which 5285 was I think illuminating. So again, I congratulate the Treasury Minister and support the amendment. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper. 5290 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. First things first, I think I need to thank the Treasury Minister for fulfilling one of my 2016 5295 manifesto items – (Laughter) and in an election year as well! Thank you very much, Treasury Minister, it is not very often this happens. Having said that, though, I think the Review itself is quite limited in scope, especially compared to what I was hoping for. The last review of the National Insurance system was undertaken under the auspices of the Hon. Member for Douglas East and was undertaken by Ci65, and that report 5300 was in the region of 640 pages. It was quite a comprehensive review providing wide-ranging proposals as to where we could go with National Insurance. Whilst there were some concerned with how that review was undertaken, it was quite comprehensive, whereas this Review really only skims the surface of National Insurance, it talks about tweaks to the system, nothing really fundamental. 5305 The Treasury Minister talked in his remarks about improving fairness and increasing rates and aligning with Income Tax and all sorts around that kind of concept of equity, which is fine, but the Review does not really talk about the other side of the coin, which is how much funding do we need and, actually, where should it be spent? It just talks about rebalancing the raising of NI revenue which is admittedly very important, because the system is quite unfair and has a lot of 5310 loopholes built into it, but if we do not really know what we are using the money for then any discussion about how we raise that money is doomed from the start, I think.
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So I will give an example that the report very briefly touches on and that is the concept of paying National Insurance when in employment post-retirement age. The report mentions that it could be that post-pension-age NI has paid for, say, NHS funding. It does not really explore that 5315 much further as a concept nor any real detail, it just leaves that as a passing comment. But I think that kind of concept is pretty fundamental to a National Insurance review. What do we pay National Insurance for? If we answered that question then we can start to answer questions around how big a National Insurance Fund we need, what we do with any potential surplus, and then what we actually choose to allocate the money towards and how we gather it. 5320 I should like to broadly, just briefly, expand on that thought, just momentarily. We pay National Insurance, very broadly, to cover three things: the state pension, some welfare benefits and some money for the National Health Service. The first question is, should everybody pay in where they can? That is the sort of contributory principle and it underpins the whole scheme. So then when you ask the question, should pensioners who continue to work also continue to pay in? The 5325 principle would indicate, yes, you should. But a pensioner who is working would not be eligible for most of the things National Insurance is paying for – they are already claiming their state pension and making them pay into that pot does not seem equitable. They are also not eligible for most benefits, so again making them pay into a system that they cannot benefit from any more, is that fair? 5330 So perhaps then National Insurance payments could be a bit more hypothecated, in some way, so people are paying into a system for benefits they can actually realise. So it is very likely that a person over retirement age will want to carry on using the NHS, just like everybody else. So surely we could find a way of allocating revenue raised from that group towards the Health Service. Or maybe charge them a reduced rate of National Insurance to reflect the fact that they are not 5335 entitled to the same level of benefits. Or, alternatively, look at the benefit entitlements themselves. If people are paying initially they should surely deserve to be able to access support when they need it. If we do go down this route, can we then hypothecate everyone’s National Insurance payments, so we all know what we are paying into and what we can expect to get back out at the end of the day? 5340 This brings me on to a slightly more evolved part of this thought, which is: what about long- term care funding? Should we be looking at developing a form of national health and care service, not just a National Health service? Then surely the question of funding comes up, and National Insurance clearly is a contender for how you might go towards funding a national care service. So breezing past these concepts in a report does not really do these issues justice, I think. And as I 5345 think has been already mentioned, trying to deal with one aspect of the system without putting it in the proper context leaves us really at risk of just fiddling around the edges instead of bringing the whole National Insurance system into a fit-for-purpose 21st century model. Another aspect the report kind of touches on, but does not, is the NI Fund itself. Clearly, if we are going to think about some of the things that it talks about in terms of hypothecating the 5350 income streams it follows the fund itself may also be split, so people can have confidence that, for example, their pension pot is safe and secure and will not be used for other purposes. The report itself outlines that since 2007 every year the National Insurance Fund has increased in value, this year being the exception because of the COVID support schemes. The fund currently sits at around £850 million, but every year we collect more in receipts and investment returns 5355 than actually we pay out. So is this £850 million in the Goldilocks zone? Is it about right, or is it too big, or too small? Because if it is not enough we have to address the issue the Treasury Minister has raised, which is how do we fairly raise more National Insurance? But if the fund is too large, i.e. it is already generating the kind of investment returns we need, it is already large enough to cover things like the state pension forecasts, then what do we do with 5360 that surplus? Do we alter National Insurance rates to more closely match their anticipated future need? Do we allocate an increased level of funding to key investments, key projects? Do we just allocate an increased rate to the NHS, because we always know that the Health Service is going to suck up funding, like no tomorrow? ______2469 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
But then this opens up all sorts of other possibilities. What else might we be able to fund from 5365 a National Insurance surplus? And, even more radically, maybe we even look at using a surplus to provide a form of universal basic income to National Insurance payers. This is done in various ways in other jurisdictions. One that always springs to my mind is the Alaska Permanent Fund, a totally different funding model; it is all based on oil revenues, so do not read too much into it. But the way that it works in principle is they invest a certain amount of money, and then when the returns 5370 are produced a certain amount of that return gets handed straight back to the citizens of Alaska by way of an annual dividend. The amount varies year-on-year, depending on the revenue that has come in, but the concept of a sovereign fund that actually sits there for the benefit of future generations seems to carry a lot of weight with me actually even though the whole funding model is different. I think, just reinvesting money by default, because we have not really thought it 5375 through, is not really good enough. So some of these issues – in fact, all of these issues, I think – need to be considered by a review of National Insurance, not just how we raise the money in terms of fairness, but also the size and scope of the fund and what we use the money for. So if Treasury are proposing consulting on this report, which sounds very promising, I think they need to ensure that it is a full and meaningful 5380 consultation that addresses these issues, and probably a whole host of other issues that I have not even contemplated at this point. We cannot really be going into this looking to make piecemeal reforms to something that is so fundamental. I think reforms can obviously come in in small evolving iterations, but they have to be part of that larger strategic piece of work. So, suffice to say, we will be absolutely supporting the amendment from Mrs Barber. I think it 5385 is the right thing to do. It covers all of these issues in a broad way and I think it is definitely preferable than just consulting on the content itself of the report. Hon. Members, Mr President, there is so much scope here with National Insurance. I have not even begun to touch on how it interacts with other taxes, which is something else the Minister has mentioned and the report briefly highlights, but if you are going to want to reform National 5390 Insurance you are probably also going to want to reform elements of our tax system, and probably also elements of our welfare system that are not linked to National Insurance. You do not want to create different loopholes by doing this one bit at a time and driving different forms of undesirable behaviours. But if I did want to talk about all these things we would be here until next month. So I am going to leave it there, Mr President, and I really do hope that the Treasury Minister 5395 will take on board some of these comments and will support the amendment from Mrs Barber, and will commit to considering reform that is looking far beyond just tweaking rates and payment profiles. Thank you very much.
A Member: Hear, hear. 5400 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins.
Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I actually thought it was a very interesting, good report. I welcomed the fact that it did not run 5405 for 600 pages because I felt it made it more digestible. Clearly, National Insurance is a very complicated area and there are so many complexities. I was writing down all the different things that Mr Hooper was adding into that complexity and I was starting to kind of despair, really. I think we all need the National Insurance system that we have and it needs to be reformed. I guess some of this is about a question of style in terms of: do you want to boil the ocean? Because 5410 I heard that we were going to fix the tax system, we are going to institute universal beneficial basic income, sort out long-term care, fund the Health Service and the Poverty Committee – and we are also going to fix lots of things he has not even thought of yet. My goodness me, we have been talking about the National Insurance Fund issues for years, and we are going to carry on talking about the National Insurance Fund for many more years, in my view.
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5415 I will support the amendment because, ultimately, the words there are relatively bland. But I guess what my real concern is, Hon. Members, this is not an intellectual exercise. It is actually quite important that we do something and not have another report and just say, ‘Actually, what about this? We need to add that in as well. We need to fix that as well.’ My personal style is let’s fix a problem, and then fix another problem, and then fix another 5420 thing and move along and get things done, rather than just talk about, ‘Actually, we could do that, let’s link that in as well.’ We have talked about long-term care in that way for at least 10 or perhaps 20 years and I think there is a danger, Hon. Members, that we are going to fall down that rabbit hole again. So I would caution, Hon. Members, whether that is what you really want to achieve. Do you 5425 want to tick a box in your manifesto or do you want to fix this? Do you want to fix some problems or do you want to try and keep talking about it and add in lots more things? And, actually, you do not achieve anything, in my view, by doing that. But those are just my words of concern. I think one of the interesting things that came out of the coronavirus crisis was the kind of concept of fairness, which a couple of people have talked about already. It became quite apparent 5430 early on in the process that quite a lot of people on this Island are not paying National Insurance and probably quite a lot more than I personally had thought. Why did we find that out? Because they were demanding support and in some cases there were a very few, very loud in the media saying, ‘It’s terrible, I have not been supported.’ The media did not ask these people the question: ‘Have you paid National Insurance for the last five years?’ Because in some cases, the people that 5435 were on the media complaining about the support that they had not received, had not paid a penny, Hon. Members. I think that was shocking. So I think we need to fix that as part of this National Insurance Review. Now, we can decide whether to fix that soon, or we can link it into lots of other things – and actually nothing will happen for years and years, is my concern. So I think I would suggest we need 5440 a staged approach, personally. What we have seen is that a number of people have structured themselves in ways where they set up companies with the help of their accountants, and often these people are not financially astute and so they have said, ‘It’s not my fault, it’s my accountant who has told me that this is the way to do it.’ I accept that at face value, but I do think actually that people also have a personal responsibility to pay into National Insurance if you want, when 5445 it is a rainy day, to get support from the National Insurance Fund. Because the millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money that has been paid to support people, a lot of it has come from the National Insurance Fund, Hon. Members. Ultimately, I think Treasury and the Economic Recovery Group took the right, pragmatic, constructive approach to help the vast majority of people and they took, I think, a holistic view, and it was the right thing to do. But it is not the right thing to ignore this 5450 behaviour going forward. People have to pay if they expect to get the benefits; and so I would make that very clear. Interestingly, if you look at comparisons with the Channel Islands and the other Crown Dependencies there are fewer loopholes available for people, and their National Insurance systems are structured in a way which might be an interesting opportunity for us quickly to resolve 5455 some of these issues. So I personally would like to see that happen and I would like to see that happen soon, not still be talking about it in five years’ time, would be my view. I think we all know that Health and Social Care are going to need more funding, so I would caution about statements that talk about the National Insurance Fund having a surplus. Actually, I am not sure it has, and I think if you look at the overall position it is not a fully funded pension 5460 plan in the traditional way. So I do not believe, Hon. Members, that this is the pot of gold that will be able to be used to fix all sorts of problems that Hon. Members see. I think we know that the National Insurance Fund – which has performed well, I think we have to say – has been well managed, and it is great to see that we have that reserve there. We are going to need that, Hon. Members, because we are going to need to pay pensions, and we are going to need to fund 5465 the Health Service going forward. So please do not see it as actually there is a great opportunity here to take lots of money out of the National Insurance Fund. I think we may need to look at how ______2471 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
it is adequately funded for the longer term, rather than the short term, and that is the responsible approach. Hon Members, I would just go back to this concept of fairness and equitability. In terms of 5470 some of the things I have heard it feels a bit like a wish list, and it feels as if this amendment has been pulled together by a Committee, to be honest. People say, ‘Actually, I want that in there because I think that is important.’ I am not sure that, when it comes down to it … it is going to be hard to keep everybody happy. It does not matter what options you look at, and there are some clearly obvious options about how you tax the self-employed, how you look at dividends, how you 5475 look at people who are retired but still receiving employment income … None of these things are going to be stonkingly popular, Hon. Members, because you are going to ask people to pay more. I think consultation is important to try and overcome that, so I am really pleased that we are entering a public consultation. But as people go round electioneering, perhaps, I would actually just be honest with people. 5480 Do not present a picture which is misleading. Some decisions on this are going to be quite hard, Hon. Members, and that is why I am really pleased to see a good quality public consultation on this. But please do not delay this. People are weary of continually asking to add in more and more things because, ultimately, all that means is that nothing is going to happen for another five years. Thank you, Mr President. 5485 The President: I think we will take a break (Laughter) before we have a thirst worked up for us. (Laughter) (A Member: Hear, hear.) We will adjourn until five minutes to six.
The Court adjourned at 5.22 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.57 p.m.
Review of the National Insurance Scheme – Debate concluded – Amended motion carried
The President: Now, Hon. Members, we are at Item 9, and next on the list to speak is Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. 5490 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. First point: very pleased to support the amendment in the name of Mrs Barber. I just wanted to make sure that my understanding was correct, which is that in the amendment we talk about Tynwald being of the opinion that ‘further work on and reforms of the National Insurance Scheme 5495 would be incomplete’ and then later on we talk about ‘funding may be required from the … National Insurance Fund’. It is the case that the National Insurance Scheme has an operating account and then a fund, so my understanding is that that list there is not exhaustive. (The Speaker: No.) It could include other things and it could be that reforms to the National Insurance Scheme would not involve draw-downs from the funds; they would involve, in actual 5500 fact, stuff going on inside the operating account. Second point is: the report that was completed in July 2019 about long-term care funding. We had the option of a model based on the Jersey model, and that separates out a particular element from the National Insurance. My understanding is, again, that list is not exhaustive, so if it is decided to have separate funds that would still be included in the amendment as presented. 5505 I get a nod from the mover, so I am delighted with that. I am also going to pick up on Mr Shimmins’ excellent points, two of them particularly. The first one is that we need to make sure, especially at election time, we bust myths and that we actually
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have honest and truthful commentary on the situation that we are. The second point is that we need to be practical and pragmatic and step by step in the approach to dealing with some points. 5510 So on that basis, Mr Shimmins’ remarks did not go quite far enough, for my mind, so I just wanted to put it on the record that in actual fact our starting point, our current situation, is very different from that in either Northern Ireland, which has its own National Insurance scheme, or in Great Britain, which has a separate scheme from Northern Ireland, because we have never taken the policy decision not to have a fund, which is what they have taken in Northern Ireland and in 5515 Great Britain. So for instance, however you look at it – and I for one really hope that GAD can come back as soon as possible to look at our Fund – we are in a much better position, whether our Fund be £850 million or £1 billion or whatever, than they are, in one sense, in Northern Ireland or Great Britain, because we have a Fund that can be used for the future, alongside simply putting up rates 5520 and so on. So that is an important thing to put out there. It is very important for me that we understand that we are in a very good position with National Insurance. It is our bedrock for state pensions, for Social Security and for health care, to a large extent, given that £30 million or £40 million, perhaps even more, will come from that Fund in the future. Also, the last time that the Government Actuary’s Department looked at it, we do have the 5525 Fund increasing in value over the next two decades. It is only then that it becomes under threat as the generational factor … So we need to make sure that the Manx public understands the situation we are in. So on that basis, and moving on to the pragmatic element of the response, I wanted to congratulate Treasury for having taken things forward since Budget speeches in 2016 just before 5530 the last Election, when I talked about the bedrock of the National Insurance Fund and what we needed, what we needed to do and all of those sorts of things. So one thing to compliment Treasury on is I did think in 2017-18 that politically we might wimp out of the very major change in terms of contracting out in terms of public sector pensions, because that costs the public purse £10 million, and it was unfair that the public sector contracting out when it was primarily the 5535 public sector was there. That was a major thing for me in 2016 and I am very pleased that the Treasury stuck with us and basically carried on, and we did abolish contracting out. A second excellent thing is that some policy decisions were made about state pensions and about bringing us back to link more to UK National Insurance and Social Security systems, which is something that I worked with Mr Cannan, the Treasury Minister, on during 2014, 2015 and 2016, 5540 and that were excellent developments. Also, in terms of preparing for long-term care, officers of Treasury did work with officers of DHSC and the Cabinet Office to make some good progress, and we do have some excellent options on the table that are being worked on for 2023-24, if not earlier, depending on what happens in the General Election. 5545 The final thing I want to compliment the Treasury team on is that Mr Hooper talks about big ideas to do with universal basic income. We have made progress in that space as well, because we do now have – I am not quite sure the Poverty Committee understand this as yet, but – estimates of the relative costs of living for different types of household grouping inside the living income or living wage calculations and we do have an understanding that in some senses the 5550 amount coming into households should be related to the amount they need to actually have a normal standard of living. So they are all positive things that have happened in this watch and we are making progress to settle an intergenerational issue, a massive issue, which is more than an issue, in fact: it is a huge challenge that we have got to face and we are facing it step by step pragmatically. I, personally, 5555 would have liked us to have gone further in terms of reviewing Social Security and aligning what goes into the households with what the households need. (Mr Hooper: Hear, hear.) Secondly, personally, I think that the Department for Enterprise particularly, but the rest of us as Ministers also, should have done more to listen to the members of the Manx National Development Forum who were telling us about National Insurance issues back in 2017-18 and ______2473 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
5560 doing something about what has been described today as the gig economy, but it also affects public employment. There are a couple of parts of Government where I am hearing that more and more of the people involved, especially at a senior level, are commuting on a week-by-week basis, which is also something we have got to look at on a longer-term basis, because is that really good for the long-term future of the Island? We have also got to look at major sectors like seafaring and 5565 like airlines and so many more to make sure that we are actually putting back in place an Island of opportunity, like it was in the 1980s 1990s, 2000s, when people were flooding here because of the opportunities in themselves, rather than just a way of having a lot of money and paying less National Insurance and less tax. So, that more or less completes it. I just wanted to close with repeating something I said in the 5570 2021 Budget, so it is at least associated with this motion on the Hansard. I just again wanted to congratulate Treasury, the Minister, the departmental Members and the officers for actually having bitten the bullet in terms of the hospital development loan fund. That never came from the fund, it came from the operating account, sort of, if you spin it some way, but in the last Budget in February this year the Treasury Minister had the confidence to say that issue is finished; 5575 the decision has been made in that issue. Also, in the last two or three years, surreptitiously perhaps, the law was changed whereby when we took out perhaps slightly more than £100 million now from the National Insurance world for the COVID response and all the issues that Mr Shimmins explained so clearly, we actually had to get formal Tynwald approval of that extraction, because the law was changed to mean that we 5580 had to have formal Tynwald approval and we did get that formal Tynwald approval. Then the absolutely final point, to put that local issue into its British island global context is there is this myth in the Isle of Man that National Insurance began after the Second World War, created by socialists in the Labour Party across and so on. But in actual fact, the post-First World War government in the Isle of Man, Mr Qualtrough, put in place social contributions for looking 5585 after poorer people and disabled people and put in place the first state pensions, working with the Government of the time, and I do think it would be very helpful for us, whoever it is who controls that Treasury file, to take out the words ‘this system put in place after the Second World War’ because then it becomes subject to modern British political tensions. It would be better to go back to think about the principles of contribution, and all of those 5590 things as we revisit it, to go back to look at the earlier Manx systems, perhaps even going to how we finance Ballamona and so on, and so on, but at least going back to the First World War. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: As the Hon. Member was speaking, I just was reminded of the post-war Labour 5595 government that started the NI Fund in the UK. It was Aneurin Bevan that let the cat out the bag when he said the great secret of the NI Fund is that there ain’t no fund! (Laughter) Mrs Poole-Wilson.
Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. 5600 I, too, welcome this report and the prospect of a public consultation, because there was a reference in previous debate today to the time being right, and the time is right and indeed long overdue for there to be reform to our National Insurance Scheme. I think that is for all the reasons that were well expounded by the Treasury Minister earlier: changes in working practices, changes in longevity, people working longer, but also need for long-term care and the demands on our 5605 health system. But crucially, it is also about fairness, which we know the pandemic has really shone a light upon. Now, I also agree with the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins’ point about being pragmatic in the way we approach this, but I do not find the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Barber’s amendment to in any way deflect from that pragmatism. On the contrary, I actually think it is very 5610 helpful because I think it is long overdue that we really engage the public in revisiting what National Insurance is for, and the fundamental principle of contribution, and that if we are all ______2474 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
going to benefit from this, whether it is in the right to the state pension in due course, the ability to have certain benefits if we are in certain situations and critically the National Health Service, which we will all use, then I think we have to articulate that. 5615 We talk about it in here, but I am not convinced that we are talking about it enough in a way that makes it very clear what this is for, how it benefits us all and therefore why we should all contribute, which then, establishing those principles, establishing what the appropriate levels of contribution are and how that money is going to be spent, that is how we increase public buy-in, engagement and understanding, and get support for the necessary reform to make sure that this 5620 vital part of funding what we need will be fit for purpose for the future. So I am going to support Mrs Barber’s amendment. I think it is helpful in that regard to move us on and make sure we do get public engagement and buy-in. Thank you, Mr President.
5625 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mrs Corlett.
Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. The most important issue is fairness and the current system of NI contribution is not fair. Loopholes need closing. There are people who legitimately pay no National Insurance 5630 contributions who are entitled to more benefits than some of those who do pay National Insurance contributions. There are some employees contributing as self-employed, because some employers are misusing the system to avoid paying the employee’s NI contributions, disadvantaging the employee if they are laid off, because they are then not entitled to Jobseeker’s Allowance. 5635 Issues like these need ironing out, therefore public consultation is essential. It is important that public opinions, comments and ideas are heard, and, most importantly, listened to. Public buy-in to the principles of National Insurance Scheme will only be achieved if its purpose is clearly laid out, kept as simple and understandable as possible, and there are no loopholes, because the guiding principle must be fairness and equity for all. 5640 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. 5645 I congratulate Mrs Corlett on what I was about to say myself. There are loopholes and we do need to close as many as possible, and we need to educate the public what National Insurance is all about. I congratulate the Minister and his team for coming up with this consultation and also Mrs Barber for her amendment, which I think is very worthy. One slight comment I will make is that there is an anomaly on people, as elderly care gets more 5650 difficult, which it will do with the various problems we have with certain care homes and one thing and another, there are a number of people that decide to employ carers at home. Now, this is hard-earned savings that they are using to care for their loved one and they then become an employer. Of course, they then have to pay employers’ National Insurance. So I mention that hopefully they may pick this up in the consultation and perhaps consider that. 5655 Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Peake.
Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. 5660 I just would like to say that I do obviously take great pleasure in seconding this motion by the Treasury Minister and I will be supporting the amendment from Mrs Barber as well. I think it is important that we obviously are aware of the great work that previous Ministers have done with the Ci65 report, the tough decisions that had to be made in those days and, as has been alluded ______2475 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
to by a number of Members, there will be some tough decisions to make in the future. It is around 5665 about pension and benefits and I think really this report lays out well to inform the public so they can really have a meaningful contribution to the consultation period. So we welcome the public’s engagement in this and will be taking these on board. Thank you very much, Mr President.
5670 The President: I call on Mr Henderson to speak.
Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane – sorry for the lateness of call. I would just like to echo some of the comments made around the Court with regard to the points in relation to this report and Members’ feelings, thoughts and observations in general 5675 relating to the National Insurance Fund, especially Hon. Member Mr Shimmins and my friend and colleague in Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson. It is ironic, Eaghtyrane, that only a handful of years ago, I was standing here defending the Manx National Insurance Fund because it was predicted at that time, at the burn rate it was going through in 2015-16, to actually be completely depleted. So it is strange how markets and 5680 economies work themselves round and the position that we find ourselves in now. I have to say, Eaghtyrane, in supporting some of the views and certainly in fairness and some of the reforms that are obviously required, we need, as the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins said, to progress this with pragmatism and a sense of caution as we do go along – I am not against any reforms – but I just put that down in the background as we move forward in 5685 looking at this point and certainly with the consultation in mind.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 5690 Talk is cheap, as they say – or rather, talk is cheap, except in Tynwald, where talk I find is often very expensive. (Laughter) I think, Mr President, we should never forget, and it has been mentioned by my, again, good friend, Mr Thomas, the Member for Douglas Central, but also by others, the National Insurance Fund, as opposed to the Scheme, has been very much the jewel in our crown jewels when it comes 5695 to our reserves and the decision to retain that Fund and not to sink into the trap of dismantling it and seeking to fund commitments related to schemes without a Fund, I think was a wise and sensible move and indeed continues to pay dividends for the Island. I hope that will always be the case. I do not intend to address every speaker individually, but I do think there are a couple of issues 5700 that come through this particularly. I think predominantly there is this big question that hangs over us at the moment that has been brought to light, more so by the pandemic than ever before: is the Scheme fair and equitable? Then secondly, the big question of does it deliver the funding levels necessary to meet its commitments in that respect, whatever those commitments may be for the future. 5705 So in that respect, I understand why Hon. Members have moved to consolidate, I think, broadly behind the amendment that has been brought forward in a search to add some more value or evidence to help them in answering those questions. So I accept that, although I do believe, as my hon. friend Mr Shimmins points out, that quite a lot of those questions are actually in one way or another transposed within this report in front of you today. Nevertheless, I am happy and 5710 acquiesce behind this amendment. But I would urge, or bring forward, I would say, a couple of words of warning. I think, first of all, do not let perfect be the enemy of progress. There is so much potentially to consider around National Insurance that what Tynwald might find, as it has found itself before, is really engrossing itself into so much thought and so much analysis that nothing actually happens. 5715 That is potentially a danger in front of you, although I would say perhaps to alleviate some of that ______2476 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
there will be considerable pressure, particularly when it comes to healthcare funding in the future, as brought to prominence by Sir Jonathan Michael, there will be a need to address future funding requirements in that respect, one way or the other. So there is actually a pressure on Tynwald, I believe, to knuckle down and address this issue. 5720 But in doing so, the collection of evidence, as I say, may be such that it becomes such a holistic and integrated solution that no progress is ever made. Indeed, Tynwald might actually think that maybe it should force to have the National Insurance Scheme reviewed more regularly perhaps than it has been done. Perhaps Tynwald might consider this more continuous work in progress rather than one lump sum delivery that must be holistically perfect at the time that it next gets 5725 delivered. The second point that I want to raise and why arguably consultation may have been appropriate at this stage is that I think Mrs Poole-Wilson sought to really touch on this point, to say that the people of this Island must play an integral role in the discussions that take place. It is alright for us to have these discussions in Tynwald, we know full well of course we do reach out 5730 via press and media in a limited way, but perhaps the depth of the discussions, the detail of the discussions, the reasoning for the discussion, perhaps the purpose for any future policy moves may not always be recognised by the people. So I would say that this report does delve into this, in a very brief way, but serves to highlight the fact that in the past National Insurance reforms have almost sunk at the first round of 5735 discussions because the public just simply do not understand why they may be being asked contribute more into a system or contribute in a different way into the system. So when we move to the next round, and in supporting the amendment one accepts there will be another round of discussions, and picking up on my good friend Mr Thomas’s point, that actually things like the GAD report, which will be due estimated before October – I am sorry I 5740 cannot give a firmer date, but over the summer/early autumn – will add some weight to the debate, as will a new Government with a new programme for an administration and together with that, I would hope, some form of clearly aligned funding budgetary plan that will also help to bring clarity to this matter. So on that note, Mr President, without wishing to dwell on too many matters in further detail, 5745 I beg to move the motion and I am content, as the mover of the motion, that the amendment does make sense and has enough merit to be supported.
The President: Hon. Members, I put to the Court the motion at Item 9. First, I put the amendment in the name of Mrs Barber. Those in favour of the amendment, say aye; against, no. 5750 The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Item 9, as amended. Those in favour, say aye; against, no.
A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:
In the Keys – Ayes 24, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Dr Allinson None Mr Ashford Mr Baker Mrs Barber Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Christian Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Ms Edge
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Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas
The Speaker: Mr President, 24 votes for, none against in the Keys.
In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0
FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill None Mr Henderson The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mr Mercer Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe
The President: And in the Council 8 for, none against. Carried unanimously.
10. Tynwald Management Committee – Clerk of Tynwald – Dr Jonathan King appointed
The Chairman of the Tynwald Management Committee (Mr Speaker) to move:
That in accordance with Standing Order 9.2 of the Court, Dr Jonathan King be appointed Clerk of Tynwald with effect from 24th September 2021, the appointment to continue during pleasure.
The President: Item 10, Tynwald Management Committee, Chairman of the Committee, 5755 Mr Speaker, to move.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I am delighted to move that in accordance with Standing Order 9.2 of the Court, Dr Jonathan King be appointed Clerk of Tynwald with effect from 24th September 2021, the appointment to 5760 continue during pleasure. Mr President, Dr King faced a very high calibre of competition from off Island in this selection process. The view of the Tynwald Management Committee was that he acquitted himself exceptionally and is the unanimous nominee of the Committee to take this ancient and honourable institution forward. I beg to move. 5765 The President: Mr Mercer.
Mr Mercer: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to second. ______2478 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: I put the motion standing at Item 10. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The 5770 ayes have it. The ayes have it.
11. Public Accounts Committee – Salisbury Street Nursing Home – First Report 2020-21 received and recommendation approved
The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Mr Speaker) to move:
That the Public Accounts Committee First Report for the Session 2020-21: Salisbury Street Nursing Home [PP No 2021/0012] be received and the following recommendation be approved:
Recommendation That DHSC should present evidence to satisfy Tynwald, or the Public Accounts Committee if there are commercial confidentiality issues, regarding the value for money of the Summerhill View Development.
[GD No 2021/0037] is relevant to this Item.
The President: Item 11, Public Accounts Committee. Mr Speaker, again, to move.
The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Mr Speaker): Thank you, Mr President. Hon. Members, the inquiry into matters connected to Salisbury Street Nursing Home came 5775 about as a result of concerns raised by Mr David Murray, a former director of the firm which built the home, subsequently purchased by Isle of Man Government, and also a director of the private company contracted to run the home when it opened. Before taking you through some of the main points of the Report I would like to put on record the Committee’s thanks to Mr Murray. It is not easy to speak about things which do not appear to 5780 have worked well in Government, when you work with Government. Mr Murray is to be commended for his diligence in raising these matters of concern with the media in 2018. Having now concluded our inquiries, there are some areas where we agree with Mr Murray, and some areas where we do not. But we have had the opportunity to look at the issues raised and, indeed, Hon. Members may not be surprised to hear we have found one or two of our own 5785 to add to the list. I will say that our inquiries were substantially complete by the end of 2019. The delay in finalising and publishing the Report is as a result of the pandemic. Concerns about the longer term availability and cost of nursing care beds in the Island is a fact which all Members in this Hon. Court are aware of, and we set out the history of some of the 5790 previous reports and debates in the Report before you today. So, in 2016, when the then Health Minister came to Tynwald and proposed purchasing the care home which, at the time, was under construction at the site on Salisbury Street, he received a very positive response. He explained that the plan was to purchase the asset and then to contract-out the running to a specialist provider, but on the basis that 40 of the 68 beds would be made available to residents in need of 5795 nursing care who could not afford the market rate. This, he explained, would alleviate pressure at Noble’s Hospital where on occasion in excess of 30 beds were being occupied by people for whom no nursing care places were available. The purchase was carried out and the facility opened in May 2017, being operated by Adorn Domiciliary Care, a company which Mr Murray is a director of. In March 2018, Mr Murray raised 5800 a number of concerns in the media. At the time these were the subject of an independent external
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investigation report which was completed in April 2018. I would like to touch briefly on each of the allegations. First, that the DHSC over-estimated the demand for beds needed to accommodate residents solely reliant on state benefits to fund their nursing care, and is paying £812.10 per week for beds 5805 whether they are occupied or not. The next allegation is that some beds are now occupied by residents who fund part of their care costs privately, and for these beds the Government is effectively paying twice. First, that DHSC had commissioned more benefit-rate beds than were needed and that they were paying for empty beds, or in some cases paying benefits and paying for beds, and that some 5810 people in the benefit-rate beds were not 95% or above, benefit funded. We found that while the beds had taken a little while to reach full capacity, 40 beds had been substantially occupied for the three years after opening; and, in a spot check, that a high proportion of bed occupants met the 95% benefit-funded criteria. We could not find any evidence that the 95% threshold was a contractual requirement, but accept that it may have been an informal indicator. 5815 We did find that during the first year of operation there were some vires issues relating to benefits being paid directly to the home rather than via the recipient. These resulted in potential losses of around £320,000. The DHSC acknowledged that this was an issue, and the legislative changes required to resolve it were made. In gathering this evidence the DHSC quoted an annual break-even figure of 75% which they 5820 explained was the difference between beds purchased and the rental income being received from Adorn. We would agree that securing availability at a known price can be an advantage but we do not think that the rental income is an appropriate offset. That money is for a different purpose. So on that point we believe that the Department’s approach of calculating value for money was fundamentally flawed. 5825 The next allegation was that the nursing home service users are not receiving their personal allowance from Treasury. That point related to the personal allowance payments, part of the benefit amount for Income Support claimants. The independent investigation report noted that this had been a failing and that while residents had received an apology from Treasury, initially Mr Murray had not. This has since been rectified. 5830 Next, that Government did not need to buy the facility for £7.9 million, and that it cost £5.3 million to £5.6 million to build. Mr Murray alleged that Government overpaid for the home. We have reviewed the confidential independent valuation report of the property and did not find this to be the case. The model of having the build undertaken by a private entity with purchase on completion appears to be a perfectly sound business model. 5835 Finally, that he was ‘coerced’ into selling his stake in the consortium that built the home, and the consortium were ‘coerced’ into selling the home to Government. The final allegation is more difficult to unpick. Mr Murray alleged that he had been coerced into selling his shares in Salisbury Care Limited, the company which built the home. Like the independent investigation we could not find evidence to either prove or disprove this. Time had passed, which made some recollections 5840 unclear. What we did take away from this, however, was that the situation would not have arisen if Social Care Regulation and Inspections had not been part of DHSC. However professional they are, the Regulation and Inspection staff were viewed as part of Department of Health and Social Care and we are concerned that under the Manx Care Act the Department still bears too much responsibility for regulation and inspection. 5845 We have concluded that: the Department is not the appropriate body to regulate both Manx Care and the independent care sector; that the independent regulator should be independent, and be seen to be independent of both the Department and providers in terms of not being co- located with the Department, or falling within its line management, and having autonomy over its work programme; and, that the regulator should not be a party to contract negotiations, but 5850 should respond independently to either party with points of clarification where regulatory input is required. (A Member: Hear, hear.)
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The final point we raised is in relation to the estimated costs for the construction of Summerhill View which, at the time of writing, were estimated at £11.7 million. We cannot understand why, on a site which Government already owns, with none of the access issues of a town-centre site 5855 like Salisbury Street, the estimate would be so high, and we simply ask that Government should satisfy Tynwald on this point. I would like to thank the Council of Ministers and the Minster for Health and Social Care for their response to our Recommendation. It is good to see that there was a value engineering and value for money evaluation undertaken as part of the post-tender evaluation process; and that 5860 the quantity surveyor’s report confirms that the Summerhill View scheme has a construction cost per m2 which compares reasonably with that of other similar schemes given its nature, spatial standards and the requirements of planning approval. We note the difference between the schemes and would anticipate such a project is one of many that will deserve further scrutiny as it develops. 5865 Mr President, I beg to move.
The President: Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. 5870 I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Ashford.
The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you very much, Mr President. 5875 Can I start by welcoming the Report from the Public Accounts Committee and the analysis they have undertaken in producing this Report. The Council of Ministers recognises the detailed analysis and review undertaken by the Committee, which reaches an understanding around the need for block-bed provision of nursing care, whilst ensuring value for money in the ongoing provision of the same. The single 5880 recommendation in the Report, as Mr Speaker has said in moving this, is that the:
DHSC should present evidence to satisfy Tynwald, or the Public Accounts Committee, if there are commercial confidentiality issues regarding the value for money of the Summerhill View Development.
As outlined in the Council of Ministers’ response, the Department of Health and Social Care has confirmed the investment and operational position in respect of the newest development underway at Summerhill View, as required by the single recommendation. The current capital scheme for Summerhill View, approved by Treasury and Tynwald in 2020, will provide future 5885 support and facilities that are fit for purpose and able to meet the needs of its service users. Over the last decade, the provision of adult social care has remained a key strategic objective for ongoing capital investment into on-Island facilities. This includes the provision of non- residential and residential care services across the Island. In February 2020, with Treasury concurrence, the Department of Health and Social Care secured capital funding for the 5890 redevelopment of the former Glenside Residential Home, Victoria Road, Douglas. This will deliver Summerhill View which will be a 60-bed residential facility and day care centre. As Mr Speaker has also touched on, the comparison between the budget cost of building Summerhill View and the purchase cost of Salisbury Street is felt not to be completely analogous, with no similar comparisons to be drawn between Salisbury Street and Summerhill View. The two 5895 homes are not comparable and differ in numerous ways. So, for instance, Salisbury Street does not include a new sub-station, external balconies and internal courtyard. Summerhill View has extensive grounds and includes an internal courtyard and roof terraces, and there is also a dedicated Dementia Care Unit and extensive landscaped grounds. Salisbury Street occupies an urban location with no external garden or any of the amenities listed above.
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5900 So, in summary, Mr President, because I have probably kept the Court long enough since it is something we agree on, I would like to thank the Committee for their detailed and thoughtful examination of these issues and welcome the Report and the Recommendation. Thank you, Mr President.
5905 The President: Chief Minister.
The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. As the Health Minister at the time, I thought I had better get up and say a few words on this, and I am delighted that the Committee found it was value for money and a good investment at 5910 the time. Obviously, that was not my sole decision, there was Mr Peake, Member for Treasury, and Mr Harmer, Minister in the Cabinet Office, who were on the Department too, along with Mr Quirk. I think it shows that we made the right decision. I just wanted to ask, did the Committee look at …? We, as a Department, at the time were looking at the fact that we had a number of beds blocked that our nurses were literally looking at 5915 the Courier to sadly see who had sadly passed on, so they could maybe get someone out of a bed that was being blocked on one of their wards. Nursing homes at the time would not take people if they were on the NHS rate; it was a lot less, and that was the problem. So whilst you might have looked at the costings from an 80% occupancy rate at Salisbury with the management company, from our point of view if you looked at the cost of what it was to stay in a hospital bed at the time 5920 it was considerably cheaper to find a good-quality home for these people who needed, instead of being stuck in a hospital bed for weeks trying to get … They were fit to go to a nursing home, but there were no spaces. We looked at what the costs would be, and the benefit to their lives of being in a room where they had their own en suite, rather than being in a ward and freeing up beds in that ward. 5925 So we did not just look at the occupancy levels of the nursing home, it was: how many people could we enable to be in a much better place in a high-quality nursing home; and the savings to the NHS as a result of having those beds freed up to allow the next people in. So I just thought that was a part of our business model when we did it, it was not purely on the 80% occupancy level. But I thank the Committee for their Report, which does vindicate the decision made by the 5930 three of us in this Court, anyway. Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
5935 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Some questions for the Committee Chair, having looked at this issue for some time. I thank him for that and I thank the Committee for that. The first one is whether or not the Committee had a chance to go back to some of the things that were said in the 2016 debate in respect of the cost of what became Summerhill View, because 5940 at the time the case was made that purchasing Salisbury Street was cheap relative to the cost of about £8 million or £9 million to develop something at Glenside. So, therefore, part of the issue in all of this is that eventually we were asked to spend £13 million, whereas at the time we had been told that the cost was only £8 million or £9 million. The second point is, I wondered whether the Committee had had a chance to think about some 5945 of the demographic trends in respect of residential and nursing care, and adult social care more generally. So, for instance, between the 2011 and 2016 census the proportion of older people who were staying in residential and nursing care fell. So if that trend continues, perhaps we do not need the extra 20 care homes or, as the Chief Minister put it back in 2016, ‘one new home every 18 months until 2036’. 5950 So this is a question to the Committee: did you have a chance to look at some of the demographic trends? ______2482 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The third question is: did you have a chance to look at some of the possibilities to finance infrastructure schemes and projects? I worked with Ms Edge, my good friend from Onchan, to actually think about the possibility that the public sector, through spending over £20 million, was 5955 actually beginning to crowd out the charitable organisations and the private sector, and that could well be happening. So although in 2013 Mr Robertshaw talked about 20 extra care homes being needed until 2036, and Mr Quayle talked about in 2016 when proposing the Salisbury Street purchase, he talked about a purchase of one, a creation of a 60-bed home every 18 months. What we have actually had is, we have had two care homes that have vanished since 2016, with 5960 Abbotswood and now with the Corrin Memorial Home. So perhaps we now need to look to understand why it is that the percentage of people in their older age inside care homes is going down; and also why, apparently, there is lots of space down south to put up the people who move from Peel Then finally, did the Committee have a chance to begin to think about the evolving policy 5965 approaches to adult social care and housing for older people, because obviously it has been on the agenda since 2013 when we had the Ageing Population First Report, and what to do about it? To me, it would be important for either the Policy Review Committee, or Government, to actually make some substantial progress in working out what ‘care in the community’ really means and what it really costs and how it is best to deliver it. It is all well and good to say we have got the 5970 pilot in the west called the Western Wellbeing Partnership but, alongside the pilot in the west called the Western Wellbeing Partnership, we are closing down the residential and nursing homes, which the public finds hard to accept – especially the public of the Isle of Man. It just seems counterintuitive and illogical. Thank you, Mr President. 5975 The President: Mr Speaker, to reply.
The Speaker: Thank you. I would like to thank all the contributors for their remarks. Certainly in terms of the Minister, 5980 it is always nice to agree. It normally takes us a lot longer than this to agree, so now I am starting to worry! (Laughter) In terms of the Chief Minister, yes, we did find it was a positive move in terms of the decision to buy Salisbury Street. It was a justified decision. In terms of bed blocking, I think there is also a general acceptance that nursing homes, 5985 expensive as they are, are still both a more cost-effective option but actually also a better quality of life than a hospital bed, but we did not get into that in great detail. Where we disagreed was very much more about the DHSC budget case that offset the rents against the cost, and we thought that was a bit of strange logic in there that did not really stack up, that should go against the loan charges. 5990 In terms of Mr Thomas, the case for Summerhill View was made in the case for Summerhill View that came to Tynwald for the approval for that money. What we have not tried to do – which was not in the scope of what we set ourselves out to do – was to trample on the forward planning that is already ongoing in the Cabinet Office. As the Hon. Member alluded to, Mr Robertshaw and myself have been heavily involved over the years in different committees, bodies and through 5995 Council of Ministers over time, about the ongoing demand and financing for nursing care. Because we knew that that work was going on within the Cabinet Office, we have not sought to duplicate that, and we have also not sought to stall that by taking that apart and unpicking it for the purposes of looking at what were some quite narrow issues around these two homes, and making sure that they fulfilled a value-for-money remit in the tens of millions of pounds. 6000 So with that, and thanking everyone for their positive contributions, I beg to move, Mr President.
______2483 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: I put to the Court the motion at Item 11. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
12. Public Accounts Committee – Tynwald Auditor General – Second Report 2020-21 received and recommendations approved
The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Mr Speaker) to move:
That the Public Accounts Committee Second Report for the Session 2020-21: Tynwald Auditor General Governance Proposal [PP No 2021/0080] be received and the following recommendations be approved:
Recommendation 1 That, as an interim measure, the Selection Committee, as defined in paragraphs 1(1) and 1(2) of Schedule 1 of the Act, should oversee the function and may: scrutinise the use of resources by the Tynwald Auditor General by way of a review of the annual strategic plan, and annual reports for the function; review and, if it thinks appropriate, comment on any budget submissions submitted to Treasury by the Tynwald Auditor General; and approve the selection of the organisation which will audit the accounts of the Tynwald Auditor General, whose report shall be laid before Tynwald.
Recommendation 2 That the Tynwald Auditor General should consult on governance arrangements for the function with the aim of putting these on a statutory footing during the first three years of their contract.
Recommendation 3 That in exercise of its powers in section 12(3) of the Tynwald Auditor General Act 2011, Tynwald gives the following direction to the Tynwald Auditor General: an annual report under section 12(1) of the Tynwald Auditor General Act 2011 is required to include an annual update on cashable savings identified and achieved.
6005 The President: Next Item, also Public Accounts Committee business, Mr Speaker.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President – third time’s a charm! In November 2020, when Hon. Members resolved that a Tynwald Auditor General (TAG) function should be established, the Court also resolved that the Public Accounts Committee 6010 should bring forward draft proposals by April 2021 in relation to establishing appropriate governance arrangements. The short Report before you today highlights the governance arrangements which are already provided for in the 2011 Act, namely that the Public Accounts Committee may direct the Tynwald Auditor General to carry out specific value-for-money inspections, that all TAG reports and 6015 performance plans must be laid before Tynwald and that the TAG must report to Tynwald annually in a form which Tynwald directs. The TAG may also be removed from office by resolution of Tynwald. These arrangements are robust but do lack the closeness and frequency of oversight which may be provided by a board, which is the model used in Jersey. The Jersey board is provided for 6020 in primary legislation and while this is certainly desirable in the longer term, in the final days of this administration there has not been enough time to make such changes to primary legislation. ______2484 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The solution being proposed is therefore in two parts: an interim arrangement utilising the TAG Selection Committee to provide the assurance Members seek initially and that in the meantime there should be a consultation regarding a statutory footing for governance within the first three 6025 years of a TAG contract. The legislation for the Auditor General is now 10 years old and it is as yet untested. It is likely that once the function is established, it will require some modification to make it practical for everyday use. This kind of review can best be achieved when the new TAG has had the opportunity to work with it for a period and then can properly consult on all areas which require updating. 6030 So I very much hope that Members will support this pragmatic response to their request, Mr President, and beg to move.
The President: Ms Edge.
6035 Ms Edge: I beg to second, Mr President.
The President: Thank you very much. Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
6040 Mr Thomas: Thank you. Could the … I forget the capacity here – the Chair of the Tynwald …
The Speaker: Public Accounts Committee.
6045 Mr Thomas: Public Accounts Committee, in that capacity, make a commitment in terms of Recommendation 3? What does Recommendation 3 actually mean? Does it mean that a year from today we will have our first report to debate more completely or does he have in mind something like a year from when the person is appointed and gets settled in and begins work? So it would be quite good to … I am very much of the view that we should give the incoming administration the 6050 chance to actually review the work as soon as it arrives, because, for instance, the first couple of years of the Tynwald Commissioner for Administration were not exactly smooth and to me it would be very helpful to actually have that as early as possible. That was a point that my good friend the Treasury Minister made, very powerfully, speaking as a parliamentary person in the original debate. 6055 In terms of Recommendation 1, could we have a bit more about the thinking behind having the oversight being the Selection Committee, because obviously it is a pretty unusual make-up of the Selection Committee at the moment. So for instance, because the law requires the Tynwald Management Committee and the Tynwald Public Accounts Committee, but there is overlap, we have ended up with the Chair and the Deputy Chair of the Public Accounts Committee and so on. 6060 Why was it chosen to recommend that body as being the body to review, rather than the Tynwald Public Accounts Committee, for instance; the full Public Accounts Committee? Obviously for decades the Public Accounts Committee has been receiving all of the reports from the Treasury Audit Department and has been summarising them for the rest of Tynwald Members annually in its report on what … and it has always listed the reports that it receives from the accounts. 6065 Finally, would the Chair agree with me that I think he gave the impression that he would be able to make amendments to the primary law. That was the point that I was supporting my good friend in making. It is much better to have the basis of such an important thing/body as an auditor general actually based around the statute rather than interim arrangements. Interim arrangements can often end up being permanent if politics gets involved. So for instance, the 6070 United Nations was set up after the Second World War and we are still operating on a temporary basis seven decades later, and I can imagine that once this gets political and once savings are identified and so on it can end up being political. So to me, it would have been much better to have all of this sort of thing sorted out inside a statute rather than inside temporary arrangements ______2485 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
which will be reviewed at some date after the first report that is still to be decided exactly what it 6075 will cover in the format in it. So there are some questions that I have for the Chair to help me make up my mind about the confidence. I do not want any confusion: I have always been 100% behind the formation of a Tynwald Auditor General. It was in the Liberal Vannin Manifesto in 2011 that I wrote with Peter Karran largely, before we put it to the rest of the Party. It has always been a fundamental commitment 6080 of mine, but we need to have the Tynwald Auditor General working properly alongside the Tynwald Commissioner for Administration in its context of parliamentary review and in the context of all of the other processes. We cannot afford to do this wrong because we are talking about serious amounts of money in terms of expenditure and also in claims about what is going to be saved because it is going to cut through the politics. 6085 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.
Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. It is just a different angle on the points raised by the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, which 6090 is to do with Recommendation 2, and it is just purely because I do not know. So the Tynwald Auditor General would be consulting on the governance arrangements for itself, and then what happens? Obviously, I guess that any statutory arrangements are going to have to be taken care of by Tynwald and there will need to be some kind of other oversight or recommendations or report. I am just curious what happens between the Tynwald Auditor 6095 General consulting on what the arrangements are for its own governance and then what we need to do in Tynwald and what if that falls short or there are concerns on that in any other way. Will we just amend on the fly as we go through? Anyway, there is probably some kind of gap that I am not aware of. Thank you, Mr President. 6100 The President: Mr Speaker to reply.
The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. To pick up on the points made by Mr Thomas, I cannot give him an interpretation as to when 6105 the first report will be. My expectation is it would be no more than a year after they take office, no more than that. It may be that they choose to report at a certain point in the parliamentary cycle, but that would be my hope and expectation. In terms of the Selection Committee as a temporary arrangement, it brings together the essential ingredients, is the thinking. I think we explained this a little bit in the Report, but it covers 6110 the budget accountability through the Chairman of the Tynwald Management Committee, it brings in the involvement of the executive through the involvement of the Chief Minister, and it also brings in the Auditor General’s chief customer, by virtue of the Public Accounts Committee. So it is a useful collection of people to maintain after the first appointment in order to provide that short-term governance arrangement in the absence of the independent board. 6115 There is a real need for review of the legislation. We felt that it does need to be used, and the reality is that we could have done a lot of legislative change but time has beaten us and, given the pressures that have been placed on legislative drafting, firstly as a result of COVID and secondly as a result of the Government trying to complete its legislative programme, we did not think it was realistic to try and achieve this as well and compete with it in the priorities list. So that has 6120 then led to a situation whereby we might not have had time, but it gives the opportunity then for the Tynwald Auditor General themselves to be a part of that process, provide that lived experience in the consultation and moving it forward. Which brings me to the point of Mrs Lord-Brennan and it is not entirely settled who will move this legislation forward, and again that is the advantage of the Selection Committee: you do have 6125 the Chairman of the Tynwald Management Committee, a representative of the executive and the ______2486 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. So any one of the three of them could. The Bill was originally moved by the Chief Minister in 2011, the Tynwald Auditor General Bill, so that would be a potential to put it into the Government programme and ensure that there was space there, but equally there are other options if that does not work. So it could be, in that respect, the Chairman 6130 of the Public Accounts Committee. So there are options there, it is not set in stone as to who would do this, but I think once the Tynwald Auditor General prepared that it would be incumbent upon all of Tynwald to take note of it. Thank you, Mr President. I think that covers all the issues. I would like to thank Members for their engagement and positive support for the Tynwald Auditor General, which will be an 6135 important office going forward. Thank you.
The President: Hon. Members, I put to the Court the resolution at Item 12. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
13. Social Affairs Policy Review Committee – Implementation of the Abortion Reform Act 2019 – Second Report 2020-21 received
The Chairman of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee (Ms Edge) to move:
That the Second Report of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee for the Session 2020-21: Implementation of the Abortion Reform Act 2019 [PP No 2021/0136] be received.
6140 The President: Item 13, Social Affairs Policy Review Committee. Chairman of the Committee, Ms Edge, to move.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. The Abortion Reform Act was in many ways a success story for this Hon. Court. It was consulted 6145 on in 2017; it went through the Branches in 2018; it received Royal Assent in January 2019; and it went live in May 2019. It just shows what we can do as a legislature when we put our minds to it. On 12th March this year, the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee issued a public call for evidence to find out what effect the Act was having in the outside world. First, the good news. We were very pleased to receive the email at Appendix 2 in our Report. It is from a lady who had had 6150 an abortion here on the Island. She wrote: ‘The main doctor who dealt with me and my abortion was utterly amazing, it was done with little appointments up the hospital. She gave me many options and so much support and help. Never once did I feel ashamed or embarrassed. The team were amazing and I am truly grateful for the help I managed to get on Island, especially in the beginning of a pandemic.’ 6155 I would like to thank her for taking the time to write to the Committee and for her bravery in telling us her story. I would also like to pay tribute to the doctor and the other people in the Island who supported her through what must have been a very difficult time. Mr President, we do not know how many abortions have been carried out in the Island under the new Act. The Department of Health and Social Care has not published any figures on this. 6160 However, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service told us that, since the Act came into place, the number of women in the Isle of Man seeking advice has gone up. In 2019, it was 197; and in 2020, 181. But the number travelling to the UK to use the services has fallen away. It seems likely that a lot of women who have consulted the British Pregnancy Advisory Service in the past two years will have ended up accessing the new on-Island services.
______2487 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
6165 So, on to the good news. The other side of it, Mr President, is that a lot more could be done. The British Pregnancy Advisory Service and the British Society of Abortion Care Providers have made it clear to us that there is a lot of unexploited potential in our Act. Some of that will take time to develop, but in the immediate term what I really want to focus on is the issue of publicity. In the Committee we were all very struck by the email we received from Lynn Dawson. She is 6170 one of the people on the Island who campaigned so hard for a change in the law. She wrote:
There are no leaflets available explaining the service, what is available and how to access it … There are no posters … A google search for the service brought up … nothing from the Isle of Man department of health, which is supposed to be running the service. The telephone number is not listed on the page devoted to Women and Children’s Services. A search of the department page showed that the number is available in a news item from May 2019 but has not been added to any of the services that women might try to access it through. This is a truly shocking indictment of the Isle of Man department of health and its treatment of women.
Mr President, I agree with Lynn Dawson that it is shocking and I think that the Minister should be shocked too. I hope that the press will report on this debate and I would like it to be a chance to get the word out that you can now get an abortion on the Island. If anyone listening to this wants to find out more, the number to call is 642521. 6175 Mr President, we have not made any recommendations in our Report, but our conclusion is clear: there needs to be much better public information. I hope that the Minister will contribute to this debate and agree with us, and publish these services. I beg to move, Mr President.
6180 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.
Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.
6185 The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson.
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Committee for their hard work, for the evidence they gathered and for the way they handled what is a very sensitive matter. I would like to thank them, but I cannot, 6190 because I was shocked by the paucity of this Report. This is an ideal chance to see how an important part of social policy has been enacted on our Island, and what we have in front of us is 34 lines, 19 of which came from the Campaign for Abortion Law Modernisation. Their only conclusion again is based on what they were sent. But the Committee did not go out to ask for evidence from people like the Department of Public 6195 Health, the Department of Health and Social Care, the doctors who were praised for doing the actual work themselves, or the nurses involved in that. The email from the user that the Chair has read out is quite moving, but it does not reflect the true nature of abortion services on the Isle of Man. As the Chair said, we still do not know exactly how many women are accessing this service. Last week on 10th June, the United Kingdom 6200 published their latest data. What they have shown is that the number of women registered on the Isle of Man who are accessing services in the United Kingdom has decreased from 95 in 2018, down to 11 in the last year. But what we need to know is why those women have still had to go across: is that by choice, or is that by lack of services here? So, on contacting the Director of Public Health, she has committed to publishing a report next 6205 month to show those figures, to show the demographics, because part of our legislation was to get the data so we could compare the provision of our services with that in the United Kingdom. What is also lacking from the Report is further work looking at how, once we have developed abortion care services, we can remove some of the stigma by having an integrated sexual health ______2488 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
service which would combine abortion services, if necessary, family planning services and GUM 6210 services, but also look at dealing with other aspects of sexual health such as the menopause (A Member: Hear, hear.) and giving specialised advice to women where often they cannot find that from other aspects. So I am disappointed in this Report for that, although I do find that their conclusion is absolutely valid. I am still getting reports that women are accessing the Abortion Support 6215 Network, a charity set up for those jurisdictions that do not have abortion services to give advice. That should not be the case and I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care if he will give a commitment to publicising this service again, as it was right at the beginning. But obviously we need to keep that going because this is a service that women and people who are pregnant will only access when they need it. They expect it to be there and sometimes obviously 6220 they are having problems finding it. The other aspect of this Report is the idea of post-legislative scrutiny. I personally think that is really important. I would like to see Tynwald Committees, when we pass important bits of legislation, just programme in, in a year or two’s time a bit of work to see if they are actually delivering on what we intended to do. For instance, the Hon. Member, Mr Peake spent a huge 6225 amount of time crafting the Safe Access Zone part of this legislation, one of the first in the British Isles. I know that one has been established round Noble’s Hospital, but I would like to know whether that works, whether we need to change that, whether it has been effective, whether there have been any challenges to that. This Report does not say that, but that would be really useful for us to move forward. 6230 The other aspect of it is that as this administration and as this Tynwald we have passed some really important bits of legislation: the Sexual Offences Bill, the Domestic Abuse Bill and the Justice Reform Bill. There are parts in that which are really key social policies. At a weekend where we celebrated Pride for the first time on the Isle of Man, I would love to know about the pardons for historical homosexual offences and how that is progressing. And, once it is progressing, how many 6235 men or women have actually taken use of that? I would like to know in a year or two’s time in terms of domestic abuse, has the legislation that we have passed been delivering? How many convictions have we had? In terms of strangulation, how many people have been convicted of that as a separate crime? This is an important part of the way we work. The Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper and 6240 Mr Thomas spent huge amounts of time going through bits of legislation line by line, which is incredibly important, and I thank them for that. But we as Tynwald must then check that the words we put on paper are made into actions. So with that, Mr President, as I said, the Report is what it is, but what I would like to see is us, as Tynwald, taking on board the post-legislative scrutiny in a much more organised way; and 6245 making sure that we, as parliamentarians, ensure that the legislation we pass delivers what we want it to do for the people of this nation. Thank you.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Ashford. 6250 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. Post-legislative scrutiny is welcomed to ensure the benefits and purpose of our legislation will be fully realised and continue to be evaluated for its success and public benefit. I have not often been accused of being diplomatic, Mr President, but I will be diplomatic on this occasion and say 6255 that actually the Report was, should I say, a bit shorter than I was potentially expecting. It came off the back of a letter from the hon. mover of the Bill, Dr Allinson, and supported by myself as Minister as well. It is not often a Committee gets the opportunity of a Minister saying, ‘Yes, come and scrutinise us, tell us what is happening in our services and go out there and get the evidence.’ So I will just say I was a bit surprised that it was not a bit more in-depth and did not expand out 6260 a bit more within the service. So I am going to use the opportunity, Mr President, to say where we ______2489 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
are currently with the service and where we are going to, to try and give some of that depth to Hon. Members, so Hon. Members in the Court can have an understanding of that. Manx Care have been reviewing the service and Manx Care would have been able, or DHSC, to say that to the Committee if we had actually been approached to give evidence. We are in the 6265 process of relaunching access to the service as a consequence of that review, including GP education, which is the main referral route into the service. Manx Care, with DHSC support, will also prioritise the need to more widely publicise access to the services being available beyond primary care standard referrals. So this does include publicising more widely the relevant contact numbers and also online signposting as well. I 6270 understand what he said about leaflets, but not everyone wants leaflets, Mr President, some people worry, even in the more secure areas, about being seen to pick up the leaflet. So there needs to be the ability to have that online signposting as well, where people can do it discreetly in their own homes if they so wish. Data is key to this. Public Health has the statistical analysis and, as Dr Allinson has already 6275 stated to the Hon. Court, Mr President, the Director of Public Health has committed to publishing that, so that will become available. I am content that the Department of Health and Social Care, and now also with Manx Care, will continue to progress the need for flexible and responsive healthcare provision for integrated women’s reproductive health in a more holistic manner. That is exactly what we need to do. As 6280 Dr Allinson, Hon. Member for Ramsey has just stated, it needs to be integrated. (A Member: Hear, hear.) We have got to stop looking at services in isolation. We need to be able to develop a suite of services that are interlinked, rather than just referring people on and on round different types of services. So, for instance, Manx Care has recently finalised the triumvirate, so medical nursing and management structures started in the preceding 12 months, with the establishment of a 6285 Women, Children and Families care group, which is a huge step forward from where we were. This includes abortion services, family planning and genito-urinary medicine (GUM), which will also create better opportunities to pool resources and expertise in order to develop a service model that streamlines the services moving forward. So this includes further work in respect of community-based provision in line with the 6290 recommendation from the Report, but the availability of purpose-built facilities as well to manage a wide plethora of sexual health services, which will need to be explored as part of the Public Health’s wider sexual health strategy development. The Report also confirms that abortion care should be based on a nurse/midwife-led model, and Manx Care in their service model redesign will consider the appropriate quality assurance service approach. 6295 I can confirm this is already recognised practice that women have a genuine choice between medical and surgical methods. Manual electric vacuum aspiration is also already incorporated into abortion services so that Manx women have access to on-Island, first-trimester surgical abortion. This change was made in the last 12 months, initially as a result of COVID, but all women have a choice and the majority, 99%, decide to receive care on Island. The option for off Island will remain 6300 for choice and risk assessment. So, in summary, Mr President, I would like to thank the Committee for their examination of this service, and I am grateful for the opportunity today to be able to put some more meat on the bones for Hon. Members in this Court and also outside; and to also confirm the Department’s commitment to continued improvement in what is an essential service for our local community. 6305 As Dr Allinson said before, Mr President, it was a hard-fought-for service. It was fought hard for by Hon. Members in this Court. We all remember the reaction from certain areas of the community and certain areas that were not part of our community but decided to come over and become part of it. So it was very hard-fought-for, and it is important that we do move this service forward and we should be proud that this was the Tynwald, the Branches, that moved this forward 6310 and brought this modernisation to our Island.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper. ______2490 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I think, like the previous two speakers, I am quite disappointed in this Report. It seems to really 6315 focus on comments around only one issue that was raised, that promotion and awareness around abortion services on the Island. The Report makes no reference to the other submissions that actually touch on some really important pieces of information, much broader issues that actually speak to the implementation of the Abortion Reform Act. Interestingly as well, which has not really been touched on, is I am not convinced that much 6320 critical thought has actually been applied to those submissions. So the BPAS submission that has really been referenced – the British Providers of Abortion Services – makes it clear that there has been a reduction in Manx residents travelling to the UK. They say that:
In 2018 and … 2019, it can be expected that this was as a result of an inability to travel.
But then it very importantly says:
In the second part of 2019, 2020 and 2021 this can be seen to be the direct impact of formal on-Island provision.
They are saying, actually, something is working. They then go on to say:
Since the change in law, we have seen an increase in the number of women receiving consultations. We have also seen a sizeable change in the funding route used by these women – and in 2021 have not yet provided a consultation to a Manx resident who has opted to self-fund.
6325 So what this indicates is there may very well be some issues around publicity and signposting on Island, but the evidence would seem to suggest that since the change in law something is working. The need for off-Island services has drastically reduced, at least according to the evidence submitted by BPAS. I would like to know from the Committee why they did not follow up on this. That seems to be 6330 a really important question that should have been asked to say actually one of the submissions, one of the evidence pieces you have collected, indicates that whilst publicity might be a concern – which it has indicated as a concern in all the evidence that is provided – actually, there is also evidence to suggest that something is working quite well. And there does not appear to be any comment on any of that inside this Report. 6335 The submission from the British Society of Abortion Care Providers, which describes itself as:
… the principal, authoritative Society for health professionals working in abortion care in the UK, its Crown Dependencies and its Overseas Territories … and is a specialist society of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.
Almost entirely ignored, that submission. Some mention was made of it in the opening remarks but the Report itself is absolutely silent. This Report concludes that:
Our general impression is that the progressive components of the 2019 law are to some degree underutilised. This means that, in effect, Manx women are not receiving the full extent of benefits of the liberalised law.
Not mentioned in the Report. That is quite a significant statement, I think, for this professional body to have made. They then go on to make some recommendations, one of which is about 6340 displaying more prominently information about services. But it then goes on to talk about abortion care needing to be delivered from a community-based sexual and reproductive health facility, basing it on a nurse/midwife-led model and making sure that women have a choice between medical and surgical methods. All this detail is quite important, actually. If this is not happening and the professional society is saying we should be doing this stuff, why has the Committee not 6345 drilled into this and asked some questions?
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It was great to hear the Minister talk about some of this, but it is a Committee’s job to unearth these things and actually if you are going to do an inquiry and a report you may as well do the inquiry properly. One thing that was quite concerning for me is the British Pregnancy Advisory Service talks 6350 about some of these concerns about community-based provision, but one element of the current provision they describe as ‘not part of best practice care’, and this is around blanket requirements to undergo an ultrasound scan in respect of home abortions. Now, I do not know whether this is an accurate claim or not, because the Committee has not mentioned it, just ignored it. If I am sitting on a committee and someone in evidence had suggested to me that one element of our 6355 healthcare service was not following best practice, the very least I would have done is asked the Department that question: ‘Can you just validate this? Can you tell us what are you doing in this space?’ Especially when the ‘best practice’ they are talking about is best practice issued in guidance by the Royal College that I have already referred to. So again there is something of concern in here. 6360 So, for me, the recommendation is what it is, you cannot really object to more publicity, but actually I would like to know why the Committee did not make any reference to these issues, which are much broader and potentially much more significant, I think, than concerns around signposting; and speak much more to better delivery about service for the benefit of people who need to use it, especially when you have one of the professional societies talking about, actually, 6365 we might not be following best practice in one area. It is quite concerning to hear that from a professional medical society. I was also going to ask if the Committee could advise what engagement there had been with the Department, but the Minister has again helpfully clarified that there has not been any, which again is a little bit strange, given the nature of this piece of work. So whether the Committee can 6370 provide some commentary around these recommendations and this evidence, that will be quite helpful. I suspect that we will not be able to do that, because it does require I think a bit more in- depth digging and a bit more thought. But really the fact that none of this was followed up, none of it is even referenced in the Report, not even in a passing comment that ‘Some other concerns were raised and here they are.’ Really, the Report basically says, ‘Signposting is the problem’. But 6375 the evidence does not say that, the evidence says so much more than that. I think the comments that have been made previously around post-legislative provision have been quite well made. We rely on our Committees, Tynwald relies on its Committees to do the job we have assigned them to do and when they do not, which I believe is the case here, it is up to us to ask, ‘Why not?’ 6380 I really do think that this Hon. Court needs an explanation from this Committee, why they have decided to almost ignore some of this evidence that is quite meaningful. This matters to a lot of people and actually to brush through it like this, I just think is completely unacceptable.
The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan. 6385 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I do not know if anybody remembers but part of the motif of the Abortion Reform Campaigners was the Handmaid’s Tale. In case you do not know, in case you have not watched it, it is about a centrally planned, patriarchal society. I listened with interest to some of the contributions I have 6390 heard in this debate and actually part of this makes me go cold and part of this makes my heart race with anger at some of the things that I am hearing, because there is a bit of a back story to all of this. I am grateful actually to hear the Chair for this Committee, who was written to by the original promoter and mover of the Bill, Dr Alex Allinson. She mentioned some very important words to me: ‘Women and Children’s Services’. So let’s hear more of that shall we? That is what 6395 we should be hearing about and talking about here. But to hear the criticism of that Committee saying they have not done enough leaves me completely bemused, actually. They have pulled something together, they put a public call for ______2492 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
evidence out. It could have absolutely been within DHSC to put a submission in (A Member: Hear, hear.) to say what they have done. It could have been easily understood that it would have been 6400 of interest by the original promoter of the Bill and also by the Department undertaking the services, that they would take an interest in the operation of this because it was important and because it was sensitive. So now I am hearing that some sort of short amount of evidence has come forward, that has the actual very advocacy group that was campaigning and pushing for this saying that they are 6405 concerned and that it is a sensitive area, and other submissions as well, and then to hear that be taken as somehow in all of this it is the Committee’s issue that they have not done enough. But come on, we always knew that this was going to be difficult and it was going to be sensitive. In my mind, it is completely unacceptable that people are putting their hands up, particularly the people who are most involved in this, the DHSC and the people who wanted this Bill have just kind of 6410 gone, ‘Oh, well, you know, actually, this is not good enough that the Committee has not come forward with these things.’ It was always going to be difficult. I feel angry, because it was not like some of these things were not realised. Because earlier on I brought to this Court a motion to say what we needed to have was something that looked early on at post-legislative scrutiny of this Bill, and recognising that it was going to be difficult, and it is 6415 going to be difficult for people to speak up and to speak out – and that was after concerns were raised about the original, in some quarters, about how far the Bill went. But actually once that law was passed everybody said, ‘This is excellent. Great modernisation for the Isle of Man. What a triumph!’ And then that was it. And that is the problem. Because, as legislators, we have a massive responsibility here for the 6420 things that we put through and this is just a circumstance where it was always going to be difficult and needed to be sensitively handled; and actually maybe instead of the previous attempts of this being resisted they should have been supported. I just think it is quite wrong now to blame the Committee when the other people involved could well have sought to find out how this was going to work out, because it was always going to be difficult. 6425 The other point I would say is that I stand by everything that I have submitted in my submission to this Committee. It might be hard to hear, but it is because I felt like it was important at the time when I brought it to Tynwald and said this issue is going to need to be looked at; it is going to need to be looked at about how it is going to work in practice; it is going to absolutely need to be looked at in terms of contraceptive services, in terms of reproductive healthcare, in terms of education – 6430 because you cannot just look at this end result of a woman deciding to go and get an abortion, when you are not prepared to look at the whole thing. So that should have been taken up really seriously and, instead, we saw some kind of heralding of a brilliant, progressive Isle of Man going above and beyond on this particular area. I just find it, as a woman, so bizarre. More care should have been taken on this. I would further say that sort 6435 of what happened a little bit was, and this is reflected in the submissions from CALM – which we should absolutely be taking seriously and not dismissing those at all – is that they had campaigned for something that a Tynwald Member had taken up. I am sure that absolutely they thought there would be more progress than this. But what we need to be really careful of is that interest groups do not get co-opted for some type of other drive or need to champion, and on the face of it 6440 ostensibly achieve something, that underneath on the ground may not be working out. It is down to us all to watch out for that, how that bit on the ground underneath is working out after we pass laws. So I just find it so odd to hear the things and how it has all come full circle now, to be actually saying it is not quite right what CALM have said, it is not quite right what the Chair of the 6445 Committee has said … And actually, wasn’t the whole point of this about hearing women’s voices? Apparently, the women needed to have this fixed for them and then that is what was attempted, but then nobody wanted to hear about the bad stuff; and now it is pointing back to actually the advocacy group is not quite right and the Chair of the Committee is not quite right. I just find the whole thing makes me incredibly uncomfortable and really, the next time somebody speaks up ______2493 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
6450 like I did in wherever it was in 2019, saying, ‘Careful, careful, please think about how this is going to work out in practice with this law. It is going to be sensitive and it is going to be difficult’ … If you are in a position of power do not put the pressure on and say, ‘Now, now, no, we will look at it in a few years’ time,’ because this is why we end up in this situation where we have a Committee being blamed for trying to solve something when actually it was somebody else’s job 6455 to think about it in advance, and to listen and to try to solve it. So that is why it makes me cold, and that is why it makes me angry. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. 6460 Mr Thomas: I thank you, Mr President. I wanted first of all to thank the Committee and the officers for having achieved something with this Report. In other words, they have collected evidence and they have published the evidence. We have to remember that we are talking here about a handful, perhaps a couple of 6465 handfuls of officers working inside parliamentary scrutiny versus 900 people who work in the Civil Service policy and legislation; and, with all the other pressures, I think it is actually a major achievement for the Committee and the officers to put this together with the most important output as being publishing some very helpful submissions, which can then inform the discussion thereafter. 6470 The second point I want to make, and I feel uncomfortable saying this, in the same way that Mrs Lord-Brennan just described herself as being uncomfortable, especially having been complimented in respect of the attention I pay to legislation with a few others particularly in the House of Keys. I feel uncomfortable because I have been thinking that this Report and what has happened has made me very reflective on the nature of post-legislative scrutiny and what has 6475 happened in this case. So I just want to bring Members’ attention to the fact that post-legislative scrutiny is not only a function of this Hon. Court or its Branches. Post-legislative scrutiny involves lawyers, because there might well have been legal action that needed to be taken into account. So in the UK, the Law Commission reviews the actual operation of laws and makes suggestions. Most importantly, 6480 post-legislative scrutiny involves Government. So essentially back in 2008, a Labour Party member and Minister, a doctor from London, had to remind the executive government across of that very fact. The Rt Hon. Harriet Harman actually took a document making the very point that government, the executive, was not doing its job well enough across in terms of post-legislative scrutiny. What she said in her introduction to an excellent document published in 2008, which 6485 transformed things, was that:
This document sets out the Government’s approach to post-legislative scrutiny. We are grateful to the Law Commission for its thoughtful and considered review of this area which informed our response. We are proposing in this paper that 3 years after a law has been passed, it is reviewed by the relevant Government Department and then by Parliament, to see how the law has worked out in practice. We hope this will have the effect of improving policy making legislation in the future.
So the executive is very much involved in this. So therefore I find Mrs Lord-Brennan’s submission, and in fact the Hon. Member from Ramsey’s submission, very interesting. Because, basically, I can completely put myself in the shoes of Dr Allinson. But, to me, it reads slightly oddly that now a Minister in a social policy area and another Minister in the social policy area who sit 6490 together on the Social Policy and Children’s Sub-Committee of Council of Ministers, report to the Policy Review Committee Chair that Public Health, which is in Cabinet Office, is just about to report on this issue, but we think it would be a good idea for you to engage and consult and actually report, and so on. Why not wait until the public health report comes through? Why not take advantage of the fact that in Cabinet Office we have an engagement team, a consultation team, 6495 consultation software – that Dr Allinson used brilliantly to get public consultations done for the
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original legislation, to actually engage the people. Why pass it over to the parliamentary Select Committee? So basically, I think we are in a very difficult position here. I do not think either side should actually be critical of the other side. What we need for women, and for households and families 6500 more generally, is we need the best possible legislation and practice in the Isle of Man. That is what we are all agreed on. Let’s now try and use the forthcoming Public Health Division of Cabinet Office’s report and the evidence that we have got here, to actually improve things for women and families and children – and, in fact, people more generally in this Island and elsewhere – taking into account the professional perspectives that Mrs Lord-Brennan and other submitters to this 6505 Policy Review Committee have clearly laid out have had difficulties. Let’s actually solve the issues rather than blaming people. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Mr Mercer. 6510 Mr Mercer: Thank you, Mr President. I will be brief. Some contributions so far seem to be trying to deflect and reframe this debate. Some have focused on the supposed inadequacy of the Report, rather than the actual inadequacy of the service and its availability to those that need it. Let’s focus our attention where it needs to be, on 6515 the improvements highlighted here in this Report. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Thank you.
The President: I call on the mover to reply, Ms Edge.
6520 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously, I thank everybody who has contributed. I just want to remind the two Ministers, really, what the remit of a Committee is, and it is to:
… scrutinise established (but not emergent) policies, as deemed necessary by each Committee …
The words ‘as deemed necessary by each Committee’ mean that the Committee has absolute discretion to choose the manner in which it undertakes the scrutiny. I just think it is important to 6525 read that out initially. Obviously I thank both Ministers for standing up and actually telling us, certainly the Health Minister telling us where he is up to, but it is disappointing that you did not respond to the call for evidence which you were quite free to do. But certainly Dr Allinson, the mover of getting this legislation through, it is quite clear that not everything has been in place for individuals, and our 6530 Committee is there to scrutinise. I do think it is important to remind everybody that we have been in a pandemic. We have had a lockdown again and many times in this hon. place we have heard from both Ministers, ‘We have been in a pandemic so we haven’t been able to achieve that.’ So what the Committee has done is pulled together what information it had and we have put it into a Report, and we have done that 6535 without being able to actually have the Ministers in front of us for the scrutiny that we would normally do on an annual basis. It has been –
Dr Allinson: Excuse me, Mr President, would the Chair give way for a moment?
6540 Ms Edge: I certainly will.
Dr Allinson: Sorry, I cannot have that. I wrote the letter to you in July 2020. Mr President, I have been in front of a Committee chaired by the Hon. Member for Onchan at least twice since then. I think the Minister for Health and Social Care has similarly done that. So to
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6545 say that the pandemic stopped the Committee taking evidence from Ministers, doctors, anyone else, I do not accept. Can I also ask the Chair: if things were so difficult why, at the end of the Report, is an email from an unknown source with a list of Amazon books about climate change, about Islam and about religion, why is that relevant to this Report when it was not relevant to actually ask the people 6550 providing the service for their input? Thank you.
Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister is welcome to his opinion, but I think in all honesty what we have got out of this 6555 today is there is a Report in front of this Hon. Court. It has caused another debate and it has also seen the weaknesses in this service to date. I think what we really need to take away from this today is to focus and listen to the Hon. Member of Council and her concerns. She outlined where the issue is, and it is certainly not with the Committee. The legislation is there, everything needs to be implemented, and I think that is the concern 6560 from the debate today that I would be listening to, as the Chair of the Committee, that the implementation strategy perhaps has not been … Is there one? I totally accept that the Committee may, in the Hon. Member for Ramsey’s words, have, ‘had time to go out and do further work’. However, we are where we are now. We have done a Report with the information we had available to us. It has caused a debate, there will be further Hansard; 6565 and, hopefully, in the next administration this will be followed up to make sure we have got that legislation in place but, more importantly, the services delivered to the individuals. They should not have to go searching. I do not really think I need to say much more, Mr President, but the Hon. Member for Douglas Central talks about Women and Children’s policy and I do not feel the Island is at the forefront of 6570 any of that. The services are poor and the Health Minister, Home Affairs Minister and Education Minister are in front of the Committee this week from the delayed meetings that were programmed, I think, for February, so it gives us an opportunity to ask some of the questions that have been raised today by the Hon. Member for Ramsey of the Health Minister next week, and I will look forward to the answers. 6575 Thank you very much, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Members, I put to the Court the motion at Item 13. Those in favour, say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
Announcement of Royal Assent – Beneficial Ownership (Amendment) Act 2021; Companies (Amendment) Act 2021; and Council of Ministers (Amendment) Act 2021
The President: Hon. Members, I can announce that Royal Assent has today been given to the 6580 Beneficial Ownership (Amendment) Act 2021; the Companies (Amendment) Act 2021; and the Council of Ministers (Amendment) Act 2021.
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14. Public Appointments – Isle of Man Financial Services Authority – Appointments approved
The Minister for the Treasury to move:
That Tynwald approves, in accordance with paragraph 1(1) of Schedule 1 to the Financial Services Act 2008, the Treasury’s appointment of: • Ms Lilian Boyle • Mr Mark Waterhouse • Miss Joanna Hill • Ms Lucy McClements as members of the Isle of Man Financial Services Authority for a period of five years. [MEMO]
The President: Item 14, Public Appointments, Minister for Treasury to move.
6585 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, in accordance with the Financial Services Act 2008, members of the board of the Financial Services Authority are Treasury appointments subject to the approval of Tynwald. Following the ending of the tenure of four members of the board, the Treasury undertook an open recruitment and interview process to seek applications from suitably qualified and 6590 experienced individuals to fill these roles. As a result of this process, I now recommend the following for appointment: Ms Lillian Boyle, Mr Mark Waterhouse, Miss Joanna Hill and Ms Lucy McClements. A copy of summary CVs for these individuals has previously been circulated which I trust demonstrates that they are suitably qualified to be appointed to the Isle of Man Financial Services Authority, and this motion now seeks the support of Hon. Members for their 6595 appointment. Ms Boyle and Mr Waterhouse are returning members, providing continuity to the board, with Ms Boyle continuing her role as Chair. The knowledge and experience that Miss Hill and Ms McClements possess will also now provide welcome additions to the board. Mr President, I beg to move that Tynwald approves of the Treasury appointments of 6600 Ms Lillian Boyle, Mr Mark Waterhouse, Miss Joanna Hill and Ms Lucy McClements as members of the Isle of Man Financial Services Authority for a period of five years.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Peake.
6605 Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second.
The President: I put the motion at Item 14. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
15. Manx Museum and National Trust Act 1959 – Sale of property at Ballastrooan, Colby – Motion carried
The Minister for Enterprise to move:
That, in accordance with section 25(e) of the Manx Museum and National Trust Act 1959, Tynwald consents to the sale of the property at Ballastrooan, Colby by the Manx Museum and National Trust. [MEMO] ______2497 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: Item 15, Manx Museum and National Trust Act, Minister for Enterprise, 6610 Mr Skelly.
The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The Manx Museum and National Trust is the formal name for the Island’s charity charged with the protection and promotion of our rich and diverse culture, heritage and lands, Manx National 6615 Heritage. In order to fulfil those obligations it will be no surprise that it needs funds to do so, a challenge for any organisation and one which Manx National Heritage today seeks the assistance of this Hon. Court. Manx National Heritage was bequeathed by the late John Donny Collister assets that included a residential property at Ballastrooan, Colby. It is not of cultural significance, has been since 2012 6620 awaiting a property market in which the value could be realised. During that time it was rented, generating income for Manx National Heritage. With a positive property market and the identified need for urgent support to repair Laxey Wheel, Manx National Heritage has taken the opportunity to market the property and received an offer it wishes to pursue. The offer is well above the Government Valuer’s estimate of £445,000. 6625 As set out in the Manx Museum and National Trust Act 1959, disposal or sale of land and property must have the approval of Tynwald. Therefore, Eaghtyrane, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Callister. 6630 Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second.
The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Caine.
6635 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. It does not seem to me to be a sustainable model for Manx National Heritage to sell off an asset left to them as a bequest in order to fund what are described as essential repairs and maintenance on Laxey Wheel. While I very much want to see repairs commenced as soon as possible, I fear for the future if Treasury’s grant to our heritage organisation is inadequate to cover 6640 essential repairs and maintenance on key sites. Not only does it demonstrate a failure to maintain a key attraction as required by the custodians of our heritage for future generations, it impacts on the retail and hospitality economy of Laxey and the north. It is shameful for the Lady Isabella to be in this state. I do appreciate the fact that Treasury has found 50% of the cost of those essential repairs since 6645 the Budget, but it is still worrying that an organisation that has had reduced funding over the past 10 years is now suffering a significant reduction in its commercial income as a result of the COVID closures, and now it has to sell off the family silver to keep its head above water. I welcome the comment in MNH’s Forward Development Plan that trustees:
will be commissioning a strategic review to confirm the contribution which MNH makes to the local community and not least the visitor economy. Such a contribution comes at a cost so we will also identify what options exist to ensure that MNH is financially sustainable and capable of being an internationally recognised organisation of which we are all proud.
More worryingly, the report makes clear there is a stark choice facing our national heritage 6650 organisation. It states:
MNH approached Treasury for additional grant support in 2020-21 and again for 2021-22 to assist in addressing these pressures but its bids have been declined. The loss of funding for Sunday opening at the Manx Museum, failure of Government’s grant support to keep pace with staff costs including National Insurance contribution rises, diminishing support for maintenance, high inflation costs in the construction sector and a requirement to meet higher governance standards will result in a requirement to find savings and utilise reserves to cover running costs.
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It goes on:
It is now inevitable that to remain within the budget defined by the Treasury grant difficult decisions about levels, or even the continued provision of certain services will have to be considered. In the short term the Trustees have agreed to use reserves to support day to day services and plan ahead. This is of course only a short term and ‘one- off’ measure and Trustees are keen to discuss these issues with Government.
I hope Government, and particularly Treasury, will be equally keen to discuss these issues, which are fundamental for the preservation of our Island’s heritage for future generations in delivering services and facilities that meet modern requirements and engage with our community 6655 and make our heritage more accessible. My view is that it is a damning indictment of this and previous administrations that heritage is not receiving adequate funding and investment to preserve what we have. Laxey Wheel is broken, and will not turn for two years at least, the technology in the House of Manannan is broken and clunky and requires updating. Maughold crosses have not received the promotion and 6660 preservation they merit, (Mr Quine: Hear, hear.) and then there is the unresolved Peggy situation. A strategic review is overdue. We have failed to preserve our unique heritage and we should not be in this position. Of course I wish to see Laxey Wheel restored to working condition and welcoming visitors to Laxey. Obviously, I will be supporting the motion before us today, as it is this funding or nothing 6665 that would leave a sad old broken Lady Isabella in Laxey, but I felt I must record my concern. This is the first time it has been in Government ownership that the condition of Laxey Wheel prevents it turning for such a long period of time. I hope repairs start immediately and that we are not faced with such a situation again. Laxey village has been mooted as worthy of world heritage status. A volunteer group has 6670 started fundraising and filming to deliver a ‘Visit Laxey Valley’ vision. To expand –
The President: Hon. Member. One moment, Hon. Member. I do appreciate that you are serving to build a picture in relation to the sale of a property at Colby, but your emphasis in making that case, Laxey Wheel, will be a green light for any other Member to stand up and give commentary 6675 on any part of the Island and really could you just focus on the motion on the Order Paper, please?
Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. The point I am making is that local people know the value of what we have, local people saved Laxey Wheel from ruin before Government stepped in. Donny Collister left a legacy to Manx 6680 National Heritage to do something special, you would think in addition to what we already have. But instead of that, it is being sold off to fund routine maintenance and repairs. How is that justified? It does give me huge concern over the funding of essential maintenance of our heritage assets in the future. Reserves will soon run out if used to cover routine running costs. We need reassurances that heritage will be adequately maintained to pass on to future generations. We 6685 cannot rely on legacies to be disposed of in this way, or even if people would consider that that was a legitimate use of this legacy. Thank you, Mr President.
The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge. 6690 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I just really want to ask the Minister what information he can actually provide with regard to … obviously we are selling a property for maintenance, but there was a Question asked, and we have got it in writing today, by the Hon. Member Mrs Barber in Question 48, and what has brought me 6695 to my feet is reading that, it is quite concerning that the Minister cannot answer it because they do not hold the information ‘available broken down in this form’. Can the Minister provide an outline as to how … this money will clearly go into Manx National Heritage, I would like to see the ______2499 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
accounts of Manx National Heritage, where it is going to sit and showing the breakdown of maintenance and planned maintenance for the next five to 10 years, which most organisations 6700 would have, but it seems MNH does not have any.
The President: Minister to reply.
The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 6705 I thank the hon. contributors there, clearly supporting. First of all, with regard to the funding issue, it is a wider debate, I would suggest, with regard to Manx National Heritage. What we have before you here is a request by Manx National Heritage to sell a property that will help support the Laxey Wheel, which is the family silverware I am sure, but it is not just that. That will also be to help them with regard to their published objectives with regard to their 2021-23 Forward Plan. 6710 So I do not have a breakdown of that as such, and what I would say is that this follows on the previous debate with regard to the Peggy and funding for our heritage assets, and that is for another day. So with that, I beg to move.
6715 The President: I put the motion at Item 15. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
16. Town and Country Planning Act 1999 – Town and Country Planning (Permitted Development) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved
The Minister for Policy and Reform to move:
That the Town and Country Planning (Permitted Development) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0157] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 16, Minister for Policy and Reform, Mr Harmer, to move.
The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. 6720 This Order updates the Town and Country Planning (Permitted Development) Order 2012, there being a number of amendment orders brought to this Hon. Court in recent years, and all have been designed to broaden permitted development defined areas with the purpose of improving the planning system. The most recent changes came through an amendment order in 2020. 6725 Bringing forward permitted development orders (PDO)and any amendments to such fall within the remit of the Cabinet Office, but there are close links with DEFA and obviously I would like to thank my hon. friend, Minister Boot, for the support of his officers in preparation of this Order. The amendment order in 2020 imposed a general tree distancing requirement on all permitted development. However, this inadvertently imposed the requirement on operations such as 6730 routine road maintenance that were previously considered to be permitted development. This Order ensures that this tree distancing condition only applies to certain classes of permitted development operations in Schedule 1 and 2 of the PDO, allowing operations such as routine road maintenance to continue without requiring planning approval. Changes made to this 2021 Order also serve to exempt operations that are carried out in an 6735 emergency under section 27, emergency powers, of the Flood Risk Management Act 2013 from a requirement to avoid felling/lopping of trees unless the operation had planning approval. Finally, Mr President, the Order makes consequential amendments as a result of the Land Drainage Act 1934 being repealed by the Flood Risk Management Act 2013. ______2500 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
Mr President, I beg to move that the Town and Country Planning (Permitted Development) 6740 (Amendment) Order 2021 be approved.
The President: Mr Hooper.
Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 6745 The President: Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Can I just ask for clarification from the Minister that this change to permitted development 6750 town and country planning law does not affect registered trees’ status? So for instance, you could argue that the Council of Ministers system came into existence because of the episode in the Nunnery footpath, when one part of Government ended up suing another part of Government because lots of lovely old trees fell down because of works on a highway to do with gas pipelines and so on. So can the Minister assure me that although we are making this permitted development 6755 we are not actually changing any of the registered trees and the woodland nature and this is not an issue for us to lose lots of trees in that way.
The Speaker: Get to the root of the problem.
6760 The Minister: Absolutely not, I mean –
The President: Mr Harmer to reply.
The Minister: – this is all about. Thank you; sorry, Mr President. 6765 Absolutely not. It is about trees that … for traffic, for buses, flood risks, all of those kinds of things where there is root damage, all of those instances, rather than waiting for planning permission before you can deal with a tree that might cause, or debris that might cause, floods. This allows it to be felled, as was the case before the 2020 Order came into place. Thank you. With that, I beg to move. 6770 The President: I put Item 16 to the Court. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
17. Public Sector Pensions Act 2011 – Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2021 approved
The Vice-Chair of the Public Sector Pensions Authority (Mr Harmer) to move:
That the Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2021 [SD No 2021/0128] [MEMO] be approved under Section 6(1)(c) of the Public Sector Pensions Act 2011.
The President: Item 17, Public Sector Pensions Act, Mr Harmer to move.
6775 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. This Scheme is brought forward to introduce the pension changes for the Members of Tynwald as outlined in the report from the independent panel entitled ‘Emoluments of Members of Tynwald, Report by an Independent Panel, November 2019’, known as the Cochrane Report. ______2501 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The purpose of this motion is to consider and seek approval for the Isle of Man Government 6780 Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2021 which seeks to amend the provisions of the Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme 2011 in relation to the changes to Members’ pensions, as approved by Tynwald in the November 2020 sitting. The independent panel was required by its terms of reference to have regard to the principle that any change to the structure of pay and allowances for Members must not result in an increase 6785 in the overall costs of Tynwald Members’ remuneration. This includes both the present costs of pay and allowance for future costs of pensions. The report recommended in broad terms an increase in the amount of the future basic salary of Members by approximately 30%, but that uplift in pay for holding various offices would correspondingly decrease by a similar amount. The report also recommended that the expenses 6790 allowance for Members was added to their future pay. In order to maintain the principle that there should be no overall cost increase to Members’ pensions, the changes outlined in the Cochrane Report require the Public Sector Pensions Authority to amend section 8 of the Unified Scheme for Tynwald Members. This will mean, firstly, that the calculation of Members’ pensions in future will take account of the higher basic pay and 6795 the lower service uplifts for holding ministerial, Department or other offices, such that the overall future cost of pensions is broadly the same as it is now. Secondly, that the inclusion of the expenses allowance within future pay is not pensionable, given that it would not have been pensionable in the past. Thirdly, that the pension built up to date is treated differently to the pension built up in future so that the higher future pay is not applied to historic pensionable 6800 services which would include then the higher uplifts for holding various offices. Hon. Members, in order to ensure pension costs remain broadly unchanged, the pension earned up to the date of change will be calculated based on current pay and uplifts and then preserved in the Unified Scheme. It will then be uprated each year in line with inflation such that its value will be broadly maintained. Furthermore, the future pension after the date of the change 6805 will then be calculated based on the new higher pay and the lower uplifts for holding office, excluding the expenses allowance. On retirement, the preserved past pension and future new service pension will be added together to form one overall retirement pension for Members. The effective date for the pensions changes will be the date of the General Election this year for Members of Keys and the date of by 6810 rotation for MLCs, this being either March 2023 or March 2025. The Scheme before you today therefore seeks to achieve cost-neutral changes to Members’ pensions, and to separate the calculation of past and future service benefits in order to achieve this whilst also ensuring that other provisions of the Unified Scheme remain unaffected, such as the survivor’s pension on death of a Member, the ability to take early retirement and the eligibility 6815 for a pension on ill-health. In accordance with section 7(2) of the Public Sector Pensions Act 2011, the PSPA has consulted with individual Members, the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office, the Treasury and the Cabinet Office on the proposed changes. All parties, including the Treasury, have indicated they are supportive of the proposals. 6820 In conclusion, the PSPA considers that the proposed amending Scheme brings in the required changes to Members’ pensions on a broadly cost-neutral basis in line with the changes outlined in the Cochrane Report as approved by Tynwald. Mr President, I request that the Hon. Court give favourable consideration to this Scheme and beg to move that the Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2021 be 6825 approved.
The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Poole-Wilson.
Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 6830 ______2502 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
The President: I put the motion at Item 17. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.
18. Education Act 2001 – Education (Student Awards) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 approved
The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture to move:
That the Education (Student Awards) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0165] [MEMO] be approved.
The President: Item 18, Education Act. Minister, Dr Allinson, to move.
6835 The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Thank you, Mr President. The Education (Student Awards) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 are housekeeping in nature and seek to bring the current legislation up to date. Firstly, in relation to those students eligible for support of up to £7,500, the Regulations seek to increase income thresholds in line with the Manx living wage. The threshold for contributors’ 6840 net income before which reductions are applied to the maintenance grant has been increased from £16,795 to £17,534. The upper limit for student support has also increased from £61,795 to £62,444. This means that more people on a lower level of income will be eligible for a full maintenance grant and ensures that university can remain an affordable option to students from families with the lowest income. 6845 We are living through unprecedented times. The coronavirus pandemic has affected all areas of life. The impact of the pandemic, including border restrictions, has shown an increased consideration of distance-learning pathways to achieve further education whilst remaining on the Island. These Regulations seek to increase the maximum tuition fee grant from £6,000 to £6,750 in line with the level of support for those students who leave the Island to study. 6850 There is an immediate need to update the student awards legislation in terms of these housekeeping amendments to bring them up to date. However, the Department has taken a two- staged approach to the review of the student awards system on the Isle of Man, initially to put this 2021 set of amended Regulations in place so that the Department is able to provide appropriate funding to students for this year’s applications. In addition, a public consultation 6855 seeking views on proposed policy principles of student awards is currently under way as part of a full review. We will be actively looking for views, especially in relation to distance-learning courses and the eligibility criteria for funding. The responses to this consultation will be used to inform the policy required in order to provide the basis to inform a full update of the Regulations by the end of the year. This public consultation 6860 follows on from the review of the current VTAS programme, and we will also be launching a full review of apprentice schemes in the near future. Mr President, I beg to move that the Education (Student Awards) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 be approved.
6865 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian.
Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and I welcome this update to the maintenance grant, which recognises the living wage as an income threshold, which in itself endorses and encourages employees to strive 6870 for jobs which pay the living wage and will not penalise their children who wish to go to university
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in doing so. Raising the threshold means more students will be eligible for the maximum grant of £7,500, which was only £5,500 in 2018. With regard to public consultation, I would urge people to get involved with this. We want to improve the system for students and their families. Support from Government must reach all, and 6875 I am also speaking to those who fall into that category who are not rich enough to support themselves or poor enough to be considered in need of help. Eighty-six per cent of jobs on the Isle of Man are provided by SMEs and this is hard-working families who have been hit the hardest during this pandemic. Our young people’s futures are important. Governments who provide long-standing support for higher education will result in 6880 higher wage gains. Students obtain a wide range of personal, financial and other lifelong learning benefits. Likewise, taxpayers and society as a whole receive many direct and indirect benefits, and I therefore fully endorse more in-depth research to inform the future policy with a new viewpoint post a pandemic. Thank you, Mr President. 6885 A Member: Hear, hear.
The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.
6890 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I have got a couple of questions for the Minister here. He is uprating the income limits in respect of maintenance support, which is very welcome, even if it is only a marginal uprating. Is he able to advise why he is not also increasing the limits for tuition fee support as well? So on the one hand we are saying we need to take account of more people in lower income brackets getting 6895 a maintenance grant, but actually we are not going to take account at all of people paying tuition fees. Those same families obviously have to pay tuition fees, otherwise you do not need a maintenance grant. I would also like to get an understanding, really, of where the two levels have come from. So the tuition fee limit is £112,000, but the maintenance grant is £65,000. So again, is that based on 6900 anything? Sixty-five thousand pounds does not feel like it is related to the living wage at all as a cut-off point. I accept the starting point may very well be, but actually, has the maintenance grant decreased between that £18,000 and £65,000 limit. Has that been looked at, the speed at which the maintenance grants decrease, because obviously right at the bottom end you get the maximum amount of support, but then if someone is halfway through, do they get half the 6905 support? Do they get two-thirds? How does that work? Has that calculation been reviewed? Was any thought given as well to uprating the amount of a student’s own income that is counted? So the relevant income that is counted is about £8,000, but that is the same as it was two years ago. So again, there is not anything there that actually accounts for people maybe getting slightly more income over the years. 6910 But really all of this stuff is marginal. The main thing for me is the distance-learning support. So the upper income limit to get tuition fee support for distance-learning courses is £46,500, but to get full tuition fee support for a non-distance-learning course it is £112,000. So if I want to do distance learning, actually the amount of income I am allowed to earn before I stopped getting any tuition fee funding is half, more than half actually, of what happens if I choose to go away to 6915 the United Kingdom. Obviously that is the full level, but the rates that we are talking about also kick in, and there are deductions. So it is a 25% reduction, then a 50% reduction, then a 75% reduction. So a family earning £35,000 a year is only entitled to 50% of the tuition fee support. That is 50% of the £6,750 that has just been announced. So if you are earning £35,000 a year, you get £3,000 towards your tuition fees, which may very well be £6,000 or £10,000. 6920 Has any consideration been given to that at all? It is almost like that is a massive missed opportunity here to turn around and say, we heard it this morning, we have gone through too much in the last 12 months to just leave things as they are. We must invest in the future. That is ______2504 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th JUNE 2021
what the Education Minister said this morning when we were talking about debt, but as part of trying to encourage students to stay here, to come back, to upskill, to reskill, we are not making it 6925 any easier for them as part of the distance learning. Why was the opportunity not taken to better align support for distance learning with the rest of the higher education funding? I get that there is a broader review going on, I accept that, and you want to deal with broader principles, but some of this stuff is almost no-brainer. Why have you not taken some of these easy wins? 6930 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cregeen.
Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. It was one of the things that at the Department, when Mr Hooper, Mrs Corlett and myself were 6935 in the Department of Education, Sport and Culture, that we were really keen to try and bring in the maintenance grant, because one of the things that we actually recognised was that people on low incomes, when you offered them £3,000 to go to university and you need £7,500 to go to university, if you are earning £23,000 to try and find that additional money, you could not have that aspiration to go to university. 6940 I am pleased that we have been able to keep this in under the way that the budgets are going because for those people on the lower incomes this is actually helping them to break that cycle of not being able to be aspirational, not to be able to go to university and possibly contribute better to the Isle of Man by getting that off-Island experience. But we have also got to grow the experience on the Island as well, for those people who do not wish to go away or cannot go away 6945 because of their family ties. Having something like this, it may not be everything that we wish, but I would hope that in the future we can actually look at it to go further, because one of the reasons why it was set at that level early doors was we were told there is this pot of cash that you can have and how can you actually spread it out so it affects those people who need it most. So I would urge Hon. Members to support this. It may not be everything that we would wish 6950 for, but I would hope in the future that we can actually grow on this and help more people, because it is one of the things that when you see families who wish to take advantage of something and they cannot just because of a few thousand pounds, and we do not have access to the student loans, and to try and tell a family on a low income, ‘Oh, try to see if you can go to the bank, see if you can scratch something out of somewhere and do without,’ I think is unacceptable. 6955 We have put this in, it is giving a small amount of people on 60-odd thousand pounds, and that might be just the boat fare or something, but at least it is something to help people go there. So I would urge Members to support this. Thank you, Mr President.
6960 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.
Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Of course I will support it, but it is just a couple of questions for legal and political clarity in the future. 6965 The first one is, as far as I am aware, unless somebody stands up to contradict me, this is the first mention ever of the living wage in legislation. The whole point of the living wage is it is not statutory, it is a policy decision. So have we created the situation here now where we are referring to something that might not exist? In other words, could politicians decide not to calculate the living wage one year? The policy is that in February it is calculated and published to inform the 6970 public service pay negotiations from April, but as far as I am aware, this year there has been no living wage calculated or published, or perhaps it has been calculated and not published as yet. So therefore have we created a risk by making the first legal reference in that? I would just like the Minister to explain how that is not there.
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The second point to take it on, and for Mr Moorhouse, Mr Speaker and Miss August-Hanson, 6975 is there any issue here with the fact that we are referencing the living wage after the baskets have been used? The living wage is slightly more than what it costs to live for a single person. It does not take into account what it costs to have children and what it costs to be living in unusual arrangements. Is there a risk here that we could have used this as an opportunity to talk about the living income rather than the living wage? 6980 Do not need to answer that now, but I can see Mr Hooper would like to take that forward as well in the future, and it is certainly an important point.
The President: Minister to reply.
6985 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the three Members for their contributions. If I can just start with Mr Hooper, he is quite right that there would be a huge amount that I would like to do today to stand up. I would like to make sure that the tuition fee support is increased. I would like to make sure there is absolute parity between cut-offs in maintenance 6990 grants and tuition grants. I would like to make sure that we increase the relevant income and get rid of some of the subtractions that are made if you get bursaries or donations from other bodies. Certainly, as I have said earlier on this morning, Mr President, I would like to make sure we have parity between those students who decide to stay on Island and use distance learning and those students who are given the opportunity to go off Island, so that people have a real choice. 6995 As I said earlier on today, I think we do need to invest in the future, but that costs money and the Treasury Minister has outlined that at the moment we are anything between £200 million and £250 million down on what we expected. These changes are just housekeeping. They are done within our existing Budget. On the basis of the consultation that we are doing over the summer, we will then be coming through with new regulations which will hopefully address these, but have 7000 to be costed, because one of the issues we faced in terms of increasing things arbitrarily would be the long-term costs both to the Department and to the Treasury, and we need to make sure that we get that right. I would like to thank Mr Cregeen for his previous commitment to expanding opportunities and choices for students, especially those on low and middle incomes. 7005 In response to Mr Thomas’s contribution, one of the aspects of raising some of these allocations was what you do it on at a time when you have got negative inflation and one of the things I would really like to get out of the consultation is it seems a little bit daft to come back year after year just to upgrade things, and perhaps we can index-link (A Member: Hear, hear.) some of these. But what do we link it to? Do we link it to inflation? Do we link it to average earnings? Do 7010 we link it to the living wage? I completely agree with you that that could be arbitrary and has dangers, but it would be very sensible to link some of these allowances so that we know what we are spending and so that students know what they will be getting in the future without having to come back again and again. So with that, Mr President, I would like to thank Mrs Christian for seconding this and beg to 7015 move.
The President: Hon. Members, I put to the Court the motion at Item 18, Student Awards Regulations. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Hon. Members, that would be a good time now to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10.30.
The Court adjourned at 8.02 p.m.
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