Colonel Lou Zocchi: the creator of the 100-sided die, “the original dice guy,” professional magician, and inductee in the Adventure Gaming Hall of Fame.

Page 4 An Interview With Colonel Lou Zocchi

olonel Lou Zocchi is the creator of the 100-sided die, “the original - C ture Gaming Hall of Fame. In this entertaining interview, he tells how he became one of the earliest distributors of Dungeons & Dragons, how TSR lost $8 million manufacturing dice, how he created a 79-sided

Colonel Lou Zocchi has been active published an improved and expanded When you frst bought D&D, it came in the game industry since the early version of Tegal Manor. And of course, in a wood-grain box and had no dice. 1960’s. He has been a game designer, he has designed, published, and sold These wood-grain boxes were origi- publisher, and distributor. Many role- wargames for decades. nally intended to sell pantyhose, and players know him through his infuen- In this interview, DCC RPG creator TSR got them at a good price when the tial work on dice manufacturing. His Joseph Goodman asks Lou to tell us manufacturer in Milwaukee couldn’t company Gamescience produced the a little more about his role in forming move them. As a reseller of D&D, one original precision dice, and Mr. Zoc- the industry we know today. This in- of the things I quickly learned was chi himself created and patented the terview is transcribed from a series of that if I didn’t have dice, I couldn’t sell 100-sided die, which he trademarked phone calls conducted in late 2014. the games I had purchased. When I as the Zocchihedron. Gamescience was bought 100 copies of D&D from Gary, the most prominent reseller (and in- Hi Lou. Thanks for talking with me to- the frst thing I had to do was get on ventor) of many unusual dice shapes, day. First, can you tell me about your the telephone and call Creative Pub- including the d3, d5, d14, d16, and earliest involvement in adventure lications, a school supply company in d24, all of which were utilized by Jo- gaming as a fan, before you gained Palo Alto, California. They were the seph Goodman in the Dungeon Crawl only ones who had polyhedrons. If I Classics Role Playing Game. Well, I had been selling my own game waited a day I couldn’t get the dice, Although Lou is known best for dice, Alien Space. Because there were blank because Gary would have ordered his experience in the industry is vast. spaces in it, I got letters from other them, and then I would have to wait a He was designing wargames before people who had self-published. They week until the next shipload came in. Dungeons & Dragons was created. He said, “Why aren’t you selling my I kept writing to Creative Publications contributed to the earliest publications things in your game?” One of those to get a more reliable price and sup- of Guidon Games, original publisher people was Gary Gygax. I regarded ply. “Why don’t you sell me a barrel of Chainmail and early employer of Gary as a friend, even though I hadn’t of 4’s, a barrel of 6’s, a barrel of 8’s, Gary Gygax before TSR. In the 1970s, met him. He had written some com- and so on,” I asked the owner. “That he was one of the earliest distributors plimentary things about Alien Space. way I can assemble the sets myself.” of Dungeons & Dragons. He bought When he brought out D&D, I gath- The owner was named Dale Seymour. and re-sold wood-grain editions of ered some information about it, and He wrote me a letter saying he was D&D directly from Gary Gygax in the put the information about D&D in the burned out with me trying to get a bet- earliest days of the hobby. Lou found- empty spaces in Alien Space as I sold ter price. “If you want a better price, ed Zocchi Distribution and for de- them. Eventually I had so many things then make them yourself,” he said. about other self-published items in the cades was one of the leading distribu- Well, I had a friend from high school tors of game products in the US. After game, I had to print a separate page and insert it, and it kept growing. and we played in a band together. He Judges Guild closed its doors, Zocchi played accordion and I played gui-

Page 5 noticed I had quite a few works that When I bought 100 copies of D&D from gave me information about the order of battle. I then worked at designing a Gary, the first thing I had to do was get game that would simulate the Battle of on the telephone and call Creative Publica- Britain. I succeeded. “ Strategy & Tactics was coming out of tions, a school supply company in Palo Alto, Japan, published by Chris Wagner. I California. They were the only ones who had asked Chris if he would be interest- ed in playtesting my Battle of Britain polyhedrons. If I waited a day I couldn’t get game. I sent him a copy. He wrote me back and said he liked it. He had an the dice, because Gary would have ordered advertiser who was selling a game them, and then I would have to wait a week called Confrontation. “If you have no problem, we will connect you with until the next shipload came in.” our advertiser Phil Orbanes,” he said. He sent a prototype to Orbanes, whose company Gamescience was planning a Battle of Britain game they hadn’t tar. I visited him while I was on leave play chess and 90% enjoy science fc- written yet. They were interested in from the Air Force base where I was tion. I was playing lots of chess, and publishing mine. stationed. I showed him one of the when I was in Japan I saw in the Sears dice that came from Taiwan. I said, & Roebuck catalogue a game called I put up $2,000 to have it published. “Can you make something like this?” Gettysburg. I thought, “Why would Orbanes would pay me back out of the He said, “Yeah, but those people work you play this game if the South always game sales. Phil took his game Con- for ffty dollars a week and we work loses?” Well, it turns out you didn’t frontation, along with Battle of Britain, for twenty dollars an hour. I can’t have to lose as the Southern player. If to the Chicago Hobby Show. There he compete on price. But this die is made you play an aggressive Southern side spoke with a man named Casey who from the cheapest and most frangible you can gobble up the Northern forces had a group called The Allstate In- plastic. I know a formula for dice that before they can win. vestors Group, which owned Renwal will work, and be durable, and they Models. When Casey saw Battle of Brit- I had been buying games from Milton ain, he made an offer to publish it. will soldier on year after year.” Bradley and Parker Brothers. They I gave him money for molding tools were all the same. You roll the dice Renwal had invested a lot of money in and he made the dice. We sold each and go the indicated number of clouds something called the Living Pigeon. It die for $1 for a single 20-sider, when and then you win the game. It was the was 3-D model of a pigeon. You could you could get a complete set of Taiwan same stuff, over and over and over. take it apart and see its muscles, skel- dice for $1.50. But players knew those But in Gettysburg, infantry marched at eton, internal organs, and so on. There cheaper dice would self-destruct after the rate they really marched in real life. weren’t that many pigeon buffs who 6 months and be ineffective as a ran- Everybody comes on to the board at were buying it up. And it cost them a dom number generator. the same time they came on in history. fortune to make all the intricate tools to ft all those parts in the cavity if the - You have the option of launching an attack or not launching an attack. The pigeon. They needed something else. duced for Guidon Games, future They published Battle of Britain, and ran Chainmail. more you out-number an enemy force before you make an attack, the bet- 25,000 copies of the game. Then they Guidon was the name of the company. ter your chances of destroying them. gave Phil Orbanes a job on their design Do you know what a guidon is? It was a very playable game. Even staff when he graduated from college. No. though there were historical errors in I thought you founded Gamescience! the order of battle, it opened the game - A guidon is a little triangular shaped concept for everyone else. Charles fag at top of pole that troops can see Roberts was the frst to fgure out how and know to rally on that point. At Well, it turned out that Mr. Casey’s to do it. Nobody else had games to do least they did during the Civil War. view was that they would sell little it that way at that time. miniatures of Spitfres and other I had a game called Hard Tack, Ameri- model airplanes that would be used can Civil War rules, published by as playing pieces for their games. But them. Battle of Britain. When I was stationed when Renwal took a look at it, they What was your earliest involvement in Japan, I thought the Battle of Britain knew it would be cheaper to make was a really fascinating campaign. Ev- die-cut counters. So they didn’t invest First of all, I played a lot of chess. 95% ery book available on the subject was in models for the games, and went out of people who enjoy fantasy games a book that I would buy. Eventually I of business 3 years later. When they

Page 6 were on the ropes, Jim Dunnigan, who now owned Strategy & Tactics, called Renwal had invested a lot of money in me and told me they would sell me my Battle of Britain game. Which they something called the Living Pigeon. It did. At the time I was in California at was 3-D model of a pigeon. There weren’t George Air Force Base. So they shipped “ all 23,500 unsold games to me. They many pigeon buffs who were buying it up.” weren’t aggressive about promoting Battle of Britain. They wanted to be in the model business. The Hollywood science called me and said, “These movie Battle of Britain came out that shapes are taking off, we can’t believe year, and Renwal didn’t take advan- how fast they are going out the door, tage of it. If it were me, I would have we can’t keep up!” Essentially it was visited every movie theater in town your creative genius that expanded the and stacked 25 copies of the game in market for these dice. the lobby to sell to customers coming out of the movie. When you look at the 3-sided die that Chessex, Koplow, and others use, and Once you inherited those games, the shape I am producing, they are dif- ferent. They use a 6-sided shape. But I They sold me the games and the name have a football-shaped die with R-P-S Gamescience. Phil Orbanes worked on the sides and 1-2-3 on its ends. Do for another company by then, called you know what the R-P-S is for? Rock, The Gambit of Games Company. You paper, scissors, that’s right. My 3-sid- may not know his name, but eventu- ed dice does two jobs whereas all the ally he became the Vice President at other dice only do one job. I am just Lou Zocchi is inducted into the Adventure Gaming Parker Brothers, and was in charge as happy the other guys always went Hall of Fame at Origins in July 1987. Presenting the of new product development. I think with the 6-sided die, because if they award is Charles Roberts, founder of Avalon Hill. he worked there 20 or 25 years. Phil had not, then I would have had to go worked his way to the top and he to the courts to prove my case. stayed in the game business. Long ago I perceived that if I were From there I published Alien Space, to do a 9, 11, or 13-sided die, I would which I already told you about. That be the only person in the market to started as “Starfeet Battle Manual.” I do that. I had counted on doing that. didn’t know what a copyright was at Consequently I put a TM in my cata- the time. After I published - logue after every one of those shapes. tle Manual, Paramount’s legal staff got I am the only one technically able to on my case. So I changed the game’s sell a 3-sided die called a 3-sider. I name to Alien Space. That is why there trademarked it as far back as 1990. I is a great similarity between am kind of sending this out as a dou- Battle Manual and Alien Space. ble message. All the other people who Lou Zocchi receives his promotion to full Colonel. have 3’s need to fnd another way to describe it. My 14-sider is trademarked. When you look at another persons’ 14-sider I invented the 3-sided die, 5-dided die, you see the numbers 1-14. My die also 14-sided die, 16-sided die, 24-sided die, has the days of week so you can use it and 100-sided die. A lot of people don’t to track fortnights. One of my custom- realize how many other things you can ers said, “Why don’t you ink half the use these dice for. What a lot of people digits in red and other half in blue?” don’t know is that when I sent you a I couldn’t fgure out why. Well, red package of them, I asked you to design would be daylight and blue would be an adventure module that used all of night. Now I have glow-in-the-dark them. Because you had such great pen- dice with half the digits in red, half in etration with these modules, Koplow blue. When you roll my die, you get and all the other dice guys in the mar- three pieces of info. Number one is ket got requests for these shapes. Be- day of the week, number two is any cause they had customers who bought day numbered 8 or more is next week. your game, DCC RPG. The people who Joseph Goodman and Lou Zocchi at Gen Con 2014. Not only does it tell this week or next were supposed to be taking over Game- Page 7 because it has so many scratches. Next I took 10 dice out of the red-box D&D they put it in the rock tumbler again, and change from a rough medium to set, and stacked them on top of each a fne medium to polish it. Every dice other, then stacked 10 more of the same manufacturer polishes the dice until “ the scratch lines are polished off. dice from other red-box sets beside them. The problem is, after taking a beat- The first stack is ¾ of an inch taller.” ing in the rock tumbler like this, every edge has a unique radius and the faces are all different sizes because there’s no way to take a uniform amount off week, it shows daylight or dark. The colors. There are two ways to go: you every single face. When some dice are other 14’s that everyone else is selling drain the plastic from the previous polished harder than others, there will don’t have all of these three features. day’s batch, or keep the dice running be a break in one of the digits. Like with a mix of yesterday’s pigment When I invented the 24-sided dice I the 2 doesn’t have its bottom part, or and today’s. That produces mixed or didn’t know how many uses there the hook on the 2 isn’t there anymore. rainbow dice. For example, you mix could be for it. Well, at Gen Con I saw These are faults that come about from the plastics for diamond and ruby to the people who published Knights using the rock tumbler method. of the Dinner Table, so I gave them a get a pink hue. That’s how it came to I don’t use that method. My dice come dozen 24-sided dice. “Why don’t you pass that many of the colors I do sell out of the tool with exactly correct di- have a dice-designing contest from happened. I needed sapphire, then mensions. Every edge is sharp and your readers, and give these dice to switched the tooling to diamond, and crisp. My dice will randomize. The the best suggestions that come in?” as a result got a clear dice with a hue of competition’s dice will generally stop They picked the top 5 ideas from their blue and we called that ice. It sold very on the faces that have the smallest submissions. Knights of the Dinner well and many people love that color. thickness of the dice. When you take an Table from June 2005 published the What characteristics make Game- egg out of a carton, it always rolls on list of 5 different things you can do its side because it’s fnding its lowest with 24-sided dice. If you buy my sets, Well the frst thing is, we don’t put our center of gravity. To prove this is what you’ll fnd the fve winning ideas re- dice through same process as everyone is happening, I took 10 dice out of the printed by permission of Knights of else uses. When you buy a model air- red-box D&D set, and stacked them the Dinner Table. plane or model tank or car, you have on top of each other, then stacked 10 to separate the part you want from its more of the same dice from other red- that idea for a contest. round casting runner. When you clip it box sets beside them. The frst stack I will be coming up with other unusu- free, it leaves a blemish. With models is ¾ of an inch taller because the frst al shapes. Because I am not as brilliant most people don’t see it, because it is set is stacked on facings 1-20 then the as all the people who play; they may on the inside of what you are assem- second set is stacked on facings 9-12. make better suggestions. I will need bling. When you do it with dice, it is The rock tumbler method destroys the suggestions that tell what to do with more visible. edges needed for good randomization. my new shapes. I was making opaque dice for 6 years Furthermore, each of my dice designs and no one commented on the clip were copyrighted on April 25, 2013 - with registration number VA1-875-058. marks. I invented gem dice, and was the only person doing it. When we Wow, that is an interesting test we Another company offered to buy clipped the die from its casting runner, Gamescience from me. The other com- people noticed it on the gem dice, and There are two studies that I came pany failed to keep the many prom- started to gripe and groan. My com- across. Go to Google and enter “d20 ises they made me. I had to repossess petitors use a plastic injection process Randomness Test.” That is one study the tools. We are going to be making that is identical to mine, they have the where 20-sided dice from Gamescience new dice very soon. I got a signifcant same problem. When they clip a die and Chessex were rolled 10,000 times. amount of money as a result of being free, there is blemish. To get rid of it, The test had a backboard. The rolling at Gen Con. That Gen Con sales mon- they polish the die in a rock tumbler of a die only counted if it hit the green ey is going to be used to get the tools until the blemish is polished off. Then felt backboard. There was also green up and running. they put the die in the french fry basket, felt on the table. They did 10,000 rolls, and sink it to bottom of a vat of paint I can produce 17 gem colors, and 13 and I am thinking, “God, how long to coat each face with paint. They let opaque colors. Based on how tradi- does that take?” When they fnished the dice dry. They put them in the rock tional manufacturing works you can that test, they published the results. I polisher again and polish off all the only do 1 color every other day. You like this test because the Gamescience excess paint. Now they have dice with have to clean the molds between days. dice in my opinion came out much bet- a good contrasting color in its digits. If you do a different color every day, ter than Chessex dice in terms of being The problem is, the die looks like crap you get an odd hue from the mixed able to randomize. One of the things Page 8 they said was if you make 10,000 rolls and the dice work correctly, you should I realized I was rolling on glass. We had get 500 1’s, 500 2’s, 500 3’s, and so on. If you come within 33 results over or un- playtested on 6mm plastic sheet, then der 500, it is acceptable. For example, repeated the test on 12mm plastic. Plastic if you get 533 1’s, that is acceptable. Of “ all 20 faces on a Chessex die, only one has giveback. Glass has no giveback. I didn’t face registered within the parameter. 6 of my faces were within 10 of 500. 13 of know this when I designed the die. People my faces were within 33 of 500. could be rolling on the wrong surface.” So I believe the Gamescience dice per- formed well. However, Kevin Cook has the world’s largest dice collection. who teaches mathematics at a college I knew the number I was looking for Just over 50,000 dice as we discuss this, in Canada. He had built a dice testing was at 13.85.” and he is adding more all the time. machine. I told him I wanted dice that So, when I went to the tool and die Kevin said their test was not good be- were able to roll all 5 results evenly. maker, I said it had to be 13.85mm cause most people play on a kitchen The die was shaped like Vicks cough thick. table, with no felt, and no backing drop. board. That’s an interesting thought. When I got the dice, I was bragging to Well, the professor came back and said Kevin’s point is valid. Most of us play everyone how well they were rolling. I need to make dice that were 13.85 on a table, or on a kitchen table cov- I went to a hobby shop and I tried to mm thick. ered in tablecloth. That makes a big explain to a lady how well it was roll- difference in how the dice performs. I said, “A millimeter is very small, and ing. Every time I rolled I got a 1 or 5, you want me to take 1/15 off? I didn’t which was the triangle side. Then I When you manufactured the d5, what send you a 13.85mm to test.” realized I was rolling on glass. We He said, “Well, I rolled the 10mm dice had play-tested on 6mm plastic sheet, When I invented the 5-sided dice, I 10,000 times, and plotted the perfor- then repeated the test on 12mm plas- didn’t know how thick to make them. mance. Then I rolled the 11mm, 12mm, tic sheet. Plastic has a giveback. Glass I made prototypes in widths of 10mm, 13mm, and so on, and plotted their has no giveback. I didn’t know this 11mm, 12 mm, 13mm, and so on, up to performance. After I tested the 14mm, when I designed this. People could be 20mm. I mailed all of them to a doctor

Page 9 wanted to bet. I told him it was a If you take a Gamescience dice and you trap. Then I rolled 6 dice at once, and showed him that if he had bet, he let it roll, 6 or 8 or 12 inches, it will ran- would have lost $2. He said I wasn’t domize beautifully. Because every face and ev- throwing the dice correctly, so I rolled “ all 6 of them again. Again, he would ery edge is dissipating a uniform amount of have lost another $2. He insisted on rolling the die and betting his dollar. energy, they provide equal access to all faces.” So he rolled and lost. It was like watch- ing lemmings throwing themselves in the ocean. rolling on the wrong surface. The die If you take a Gamescience dice and That’s hilarious. I guess it only works is designed to be used on plastic and you let it roll, 6 or 8 or 12 inches, it will if the die is truly random…and I wood, which provides giveback. Glass randomize beautifully. Because every guess it worked! and metal surfaces have no giveback face and every edge is dissipating a and the tablecloth will change how the uniform amount of energy, they pro- Yes. die performs. vide equal access to all faces. I never realized it would affect dice The d7 was invented by Bernard In the old days, people who didn’t Beruter. When I frst got the d7 in know any better would do what The That glass would kill the performance stock, I mailed it back to the guy who Armory said you should do, which was of the dice. made it. I said the 6 and 7 faces are too buy Crayola crayons and rub them on large; they do not have enough size to dice and then work like a devil to get - rid of the marks you didn’t want. The balance out 1-5 around the edges. He mailed it back and said, “No, when problem is, if you leave the die in a car Every time I dropped a 5-sided die in a I frst made the die I made it thicker or any other hot place, the wax will dice tower, it came out 1 or 5. It could than now. After I did 10,000 test rolls, melt and run out of certain numbers. not come up on its edges. I don’t know I milled 1/10,000th of an inch off, and Or if you are up north and it’s winter- how much drop you need. I don’t en- tested again. Then I milled another time, the wax changes shape accord- dorse dice towers. They are probably 1/10,000th of an inch off, and did more ing to temperature at a different pace adequate for dice of every shape. Be- test rolls. Then I milled some more and than the dice material. Over time, the cause a 5-sided die is not the usual kept going until it rolled 1-7 equally.” wax will work free on some numbers, shape, it is more likely to come up 1 and you’ll have an uneven distribu- or 5 when dropped into a dice tower. So every time I took my 7-sided dice tion of numbers. The die shrinks from to a convention, people would say the the cold, faster than the wax in the dig- Interesting. You really have to study same thing to me as I said to him: “The these things to make the dice work as its, so the wax numbers fall out of their 6 and 7 faces are too large for it to ran- grooves. intended. domize properly.” I use a Sharpie brand pen. The ultra It turns out that everybody else is tak- Well it really does a good job, so I de- ing a production shortcut to get the fne tip will get into the crevices of cided to prove it. I was fying to a con most dice. If you use the paint-based digits inked. I have been sitting here in Las Vegas. I asked the guy next to night after night inking dice since one and it stops working, pull the tip me on the plane if he played D&D. off and fll the cavity with lighter fuid. 1974. I am fed up with it. I don’t want He said, yeah, I used to in college. But to spend rest of my days inking dice. Take toothpick and push down. There he didn’t have time anymore. Well, I is a trap door that opens. The lighter But it does get better results. said, I’ve got some 7-sided-dice and fuid goes into the pen, mixes with the let’s roll them since we have nothing Yeah, from a mathematical perspec- pigment, and makes the pen usable else to do for 4 hours. I had him roll tive, people buy dice expecting them again. If the pen makes a blob, pull its the die and call out the result, which I to randomize better. tip out, and clean it with lighter fuid. recorded. He rolled 100 times, and the I do a seminar on getting better dice re- results were evenly distributed, as I re- For water-based inks, you do the same sults. You will see guys making a short corded them. thing with the pen: take the point out dice roll that looks like they’re cheat- and fll the pen with water. I have That gave me courage to make a sign ing because they aren’t rolling far. been using my current pen for years for my booth at the Vegas con. The They are screwing themselves because and resurrected it 6 times, and I ink a sign said: “If you roll this 7-sided die, I a die has to go eight or more inches lot with it. I am very pleased with the will pay $2 for every 6 or 7 that comes across the table and offer the table as performance of that inking pen. You up, if you pay me $1 for every 1-5 that many faces as it has. They get unfavor- have to go to an art supply or busi- comes up.” able results with short-distance rolls. ness supply store to get these pens; A young boy came to my table and they are metal, and come in a variety

Page 10 of different colors. I like white. The water-based pen’s stock number is When Vampire the Masquerade was #7164135574. If you want a black die with red dig- new, everyone wanted black dice its, you have to ink it twice. You have with red numbers. They didn’t know why to ink frst with white, then put red on “ so the red stands out more. When Vam- I charged more and got upset! I had to ink pire the Masquerade was new, everyone every one of those dice twice, once with wanted black dice with red numbers. They didn’t know why I charged more white and once with red.” and got upset! I had to ink every one of those dice twice, once with white and once with red. They didn’t want to pay not import books printed in English Gary hired him as Vice President. He more for that second inking coat. into France. Lots of French kids were was one of the guys who got TSR to go learning to play D&D in English, and into lots of places. Gary and the Blumes wanted to learn the game. The French had an idea that if there was a penny I have a lot of things I want to do with government was going to ban D&D to be made from D&D, it’s their penny the 100-sided die. And I want to make but a bunch of English teachers orga- and no one else should take it. Well, the D-Total die even better. I own the nized and told the government, “Our they hired Duke and he said, “Here tool that makes the shape of the D- kids are learning to speak English you are collecting a royalty from Hum- total. I make the shape and send it to because of that game, we think you brol for D&D paint, and I know how another company to print it. should leave it in English.” The gov- to make paint, so why don’t we make ernment gave in. paint and get 100% of the sale instead No, and the worst of it is I don’t get You know that Gary Gygax was part- of a royalty?” They went along with much time to play. Gaming is a great ners with the Blume Brothers. Well him. Duke said, “I used to sculpt fg- hobby. When you said you couldn’t one day, Toys R Us made a math mis- ures. You’re getting a royalty from Ral do our interview on Monday because take on the discount they got from Partha. I can sculpt fgures. Why don’t you were gaming, I thought, “I wish I paying within 30 days. The math error we buy this company in Chicago and could do that.” resulted in them sending $20 less than make our own minis?” It was one thing what they should have sent to retire after another. Duke repeatedly fgured Mostly I am a wargamer. I was on out how to make money for TSR. Avalon Hill’s playtest panel, from the the bill. Along with that check they earliest days. I playtested Bismarck and also sent along a purchase order for a When Duke worked for Heritage min- Stalingrad and quite a few others. I re- million dollars worth of new games. iatures, the owner sent him out and ally like those games and the way they When Gary walked by the order said, “Don’t come back until you have play. My math skills were much bet- desk, the worker said, “Gary, I want $10,000 in orders.” Well, a week later ter from playing those games, because to show you something. These people Duke came back with the orders. The you needed to regularly multiply 6x7 didn’t pay what they owe. I am going owner sent him out again for $20,000. or 6x9 or other factors to build up odds to teach them a lesson. I am going to A week later Duke came back with the for an attack against someone else. sit on this million-dollar order until orders. Then the owner said “$40,000,” they pay that twenty dollars.” Then and kept doubling each time. Each That reminds me of a story. Every- Gary pulled out a 20-dollar bill from time, Duke met it. Finally Duke said, thing sold in Canada has to be printed his wallet, slapped it on the worker’s “You haven’t even flled the frst in French and English. It’s the law. desk, and said, “Fill that order.” $10,000 in orders I made! Fill those or- Avalon Hill games never sold a French ders then I’ll go back out!” version of their games, so the Canadi- an government called Avalon Hill in to I think I got along with Gary, but I Duke used to run seminars at stores explain why their games didn’t have didn’t know him that well. I didn’t on how to paint miniatures. One time, French rules. So Tom Shaw went up get to game with him. He had his own Duke drove his RV to a store to give there and met with the offcial respon- thing. Running a company as big as a talk. He got to the store after it had sible. He told them how odds worked, TSR got to be a tremendous challenge. closed. So he parked in a nearby lot 3:1 or 6:1, and how the rules worked, Gamescience at one time had 35 em- and went to bed. Thirty minutes later and how to play the games. These ployees. At that point, I spent all day an 18-wheeler crashed into his motor games are complicated. When he fn- every day dealing with people prob- home. It was 6:30 in the PM, still day- ished explaining it all, the offcial said, lems instead of selling to customers light. Duke jumped out of his RV and “That’s so complicated, no one speak- and flling orders. Bigger is not neces- started berating the truck driver, and ing French could understand it. You sarily better. screaming at the top of his lungs out can leave it in English.” of frustration. A crowd naturally gath- Do you know Duke Seifried? He in- ered. When Duke paused for a deep France had the same rule. You could vented a line of paints he took to TSR. breath, the driver said, “Do you realize

Page 11 you’re totally naked?” From that, we seems about right. I’d like to retire.” I told him, “I have four years in grade discovered that Duke sleeps in the buff. walked over to put in my papers. The as a captain and I can’t get promoted I understand you have a seminar at guy said, “You’re at 20 years and 1 to major. If I transfer over, will you many conventions called “Gaming month.” In the Air Force,if you work promote me to major?” So the rest of half a year they give you credit for the the time I served with the state of Ala- whole year in retirement benefts. I bama and worked my way up to full said, “I’ll be back in 5 months.” bird colonel. I have over 212 stories I can tell about hearsay in the gaming industry. I call They call you Colonel Louis Zocchi. them “hearsay” because I wasn’t there Well, you could. Some people do. Oth- for all of them; many of the stories are Force after 21 years of service as an er people call me Lou. hearsay. It takes me two hours to tell E-6 Technical Sergeant, and now call Just to set the record straight, how ex- 50 of the stories, so I can never tell them all. If they have me doing two When war was declared on Iraq the seminars, I tell another 50. I do the frst time, I couldn’t sleep. I kept the TV Zocchi is pronounced ZOCKEY. It seminars at Gen Con and Origins. on all night long, and kept watching rhymes with “jockey,” the guys who newscast after newscast after news- ride horses in races. It’s an Italian spell- I have a new seminar I am doing ing. In Italian, Zocci is pronounced called, “How to Roll Winning Num- cast. A friend of mine said to me, “You know, if you were to join the Missis- “ZO-chee.” If there is an H after the bers.” You have to make sure the die C’s, it is pronounced “zockey.” tumbles eight or more inches across sippi State Guard, they would let you the tabletop to randomize properly. come in as a frst lieutenant.” I always Tell me about the old days of selling wanted to be an offcer. So I joined the - state guard as a frst lieutenant. The your car. State Guard is not the National Guard. Well, I really didn’t sell it out of the Congress passed a law authorizing The frst gaming con I attended was trunk of my car. I had purchased a every state governor to create a mili- held in a high school gymnasium in station wagon and I loaded it with tia that would be activated when you a Chicago suburb in 1972. It was run games that had been privately pub- needed help surviving a hurricane or by Spartan International. I don’t re- lished. D&D was one of the games that a man-made disaster. So we learned member what they called it. There is had been privately published. I had how to do frst aid, run a shelter, and a very successful hobby shop in that designed a game called Alien Space, pass out MRE’s and ice and water and suburb now. They sell used games in which I told you about. When I sold other things people need when people that store once a year in an auction, through my frst printing, the guy don’t have electricity. and the auction takes 4 days to run be- who laid it out said to me, “You know, cause they have so many things to sell. After I had served with the Mississip- you’ve got 3 blank pages here.” I said, I can’t remember the name of the store. pi state guard for six years, the com- “So?” He said, “The printer will charge Is that Games Plus in Mount Pros- mander of the State Guard got into an the same amount of money to run argument with the adjutant general. that blank page as if it was printed.” I Because he wouldn’t do what the AJ Yes! That’s the one. said, “So?” He said, “Well, I have three wanted done, the AJ stopped all pro- games I designed, and if you will ad- It’s one of my favorite game stores. motions. I should have been promoted vertise those games on the blank pages That frst convention was held in to major after 2 years. But I had served it will work well for you.” I said, “Why Mount Prospect, IL. I was stationed 4 years as a captain and still couldn’t should I do that?” He said, “Well, all at George Air Force base at the time. get promoted. So one day Keesler Air you have to sell is Alien Space now. I was friends with Russell Powell who Force Base Hospital had an open house But once they see the ad, they’ll order had an organization called Spartan day and I looked at that and thought it the other games from you and you’ll International. They would playtest would be a good opportunity to recruit make money from selling them.” Then games for the Avalon Hill game com- for the state guard. Three of the guys people started calling me and asking to pany. They decided to start running who wanted to join were people who advertise in those pages. When I went conventions and this was the frst one drove over from Mobile, Alabama. to game conventions, everyone was they ran. A guy named Tony Adams State regulations say if you live in Mis- selling the latest release from D&D. was the frst one to run the con. sissippi you can serve in Mississippi There would be 9 or 10 local hobby but you shouldn’t be from Alabama. So shops selling D&D. People were hip- What was the earliest Gen Con you I got in touch from the guy who was deep in D&D stuff. I would be there running the Alabama state defense with products privately published. 1976. I retired in 1975. I’ve been out force and I said, “I have 3 prospects and Nobody knew about them. And since longer than I was in. I retired from the I will mail you their applications.” you couldn’t get them through hobby air force, on April 1, 1975. And they They invited me to attend one of their shops, they sold very well. gave me credit for 21 years service. I drills. I saw that their brigade com- How did Zocchi Distribution get wasn’t keeping track of how much mander was promoting people. So I time I’d put in. One day, I said, “This Page 12 There was a distributor in Los Angeles I tried to get as an account. He wrote There was a time when we looked an irate letter saying I had no right to sell these games and I should get out around and said, “What should we call of business. I thought, “Who empow- ourselves?” Some people said wargaming. ered him to do this and why should “ I obey his instructions?” I kept doing But war doesn’t have a good reputation. it. As I did it, the number of clients I had kept growing. It grew to the point Duke Seifreid said we should call ourselves where I couldn’t run it out of my the adventure gaming industry.” house any more. I had to get a 5,000 square foot building to run it out of. Eventually I had 35 employees. But that was a big mistake. I spent every produced almost no results whatso- term, “adventure gaming,” comes day dealing with employee problems ever. Then I got a buy on a bunch of from Duke Seifreid. instead of doing game design. science fction games from Task Force I want to make sure that people don’t Games. I called Strategy & Tactics and So what you like best is designing forget the major things he did for the $250 was what they wanted for an ad. games. hobby. Duke used to manufacture I paid $250 to Strategy & Tactics to sell minis. When he went to Origins or I consider that time to be the best time. 1 science fction board game. How Gen Con, he would put together sev- What do you most miss about the stupid can you get? I was looking at eral ping-pong tables and do a mas- how much it cost me rather than who sive campaign with all the terrain and will be reading this ad. Obviously I miss Dragon Magazine. It was the painted soldiers that were necessary to the D&D guy would have been read- one publication you could turn to, run the adventure. He was frst person ing the ad in Dragon but not in Space and you could read about all the cons to publish a set of Napoleonic rules Gamer. If I had taken the sci-f games that would be held over the coming based on historical accuracy rather and advertised them in Space Gamer I months. It also had descriptions of all than TLAR. would have sold more than through the newest games that had come into Strategy & Tactics. the marketplace. And it had a lot of stories about how to play Dungeons & What do you like most about the “That Looks About Right.” Everybody Dragons better. It had the biggest cir- who designed an air fghter game oth- er than me used TLAR. culation of all the magazines devoted The fact that it has grown. It has to our feld of interest. pleased me to see that it is so much The other person I want to mention is Have you heard of Gygax Magazine larger now than when I was doing John Mansfeld. John Mansfeld comes from a store in Canada called the Little I have not seen it, but I have been in missionary work to help it grow. Soldier Hobby Shop. Right at the very correspondence with Ernest Gygax, There’s a couple of people who I am frst Origins, John was the frst one to Gary’s son. He gave me several really afraid the hobby no longer remem- start giving out awards for the best good stories about what it was like in bers. I want to use this opportunity to game of the year, and things of that the early days and information from make sure these guys get recognized. nature. He did it for 4 or 5 years be- the early days. The frst one is Duke Seifried. Before fore there was a con held in Detroit, I don’t play D&D. I just thought that Heritage Models, he had his own com- MI where the Detroit gamers took the on the whole, when you thumbed pany in Dayton, Ohio. Duke was the helm and held the Origins that year. your way through an issue of Dragon, frst fgure manufacturer to sell min- I remember passing the room where you had a feel for what was happen- iatures in blister-carded packages of 6 John was being told that he should ing in the industry and where things fgures per pack. Before Duke, minia- cease and desist from giving out were going. tures were sold by the eaches, one at a awards, because GAMA was going to In the early days, I did a lot of stupid time. The name of that company was give the awards from now on. They things. You know I make polyhedron Der Kriegspieler. A lot of people won’t just took it away from him. Nobody dice, which are used by people who remember this, but there was a time looks over their shoulders and says, play D&D. I wanted to advertise. I when we looked around and said, “If it wasn’t for John, those awards called up Dragon and they said an ad “What should we call ourselves?” may have waited another 5 or 10 years was $500. So I called Steve Jackson and Some people said wargaming. But before they ever transpired.” war doesn’t have a good reputation. he said I could run an ad for $250 in - Duke Seifreid said we should call our- his Space Gamer magazine. At that time there were only 1 or 2 space games in selves the adventure gaming industry. I plead guilty. I started doing magic print. Traveller was the most popular “Adventure” covers a whole host of in June 1949. I’ve always been inter- and it used only 6-sided dice. My ads things, but war focuses on destroy- ested in magic. It’s been a way for me for polyhedron dice in Space Gamer ing and wounding and maiming. That

Page 13 Some of the many news articles that accompanied the creation of the 100-sided die.

to earn extra money. When I was in and then select the frst Google+ para- year that another company, Koplow, the Air Force, in 1971 I competed in graph. brought out a 3 sided and 5 and 14 the air force talent contest. I won the and 16 and 24. Alright. Well, what a lot worldwide air force competition for of people don’t remember is that way instrumental solo. I played Exodus on I just learned one a couple months ago. back when, like in 1985, I brought out a an 8-point cross-cut carpenter’s hand You take a pencil or straw and shove it 5-sided dice and people yawned. They saw. Like you cut wood with. And up your nose then turn your head and were not real thrilled with the fact that I since that time I have learned to play pull it out of your ear. I like it because had taken a 10-sided dice and changed a number of weird, strange, and bi- it is so fast and people act disgusted as the numbering so it read 1-5 twice on zarre musical instruments, including a it goes up my nose. a ten sided shape. In 2002, I brought 22-foot garden hose, and a snoot fute, Nowadays, there are all kinds of dice out a true 5-sided dice. It was 2005 which I cram up my nose and if the on the market. Do you think we live when I brought out the 14 and 1993 audience is lucky, only music comes when I brought out a 16-sided dice. I out of my mouth. brought out a true 5-sided dice and all No, not yet. I haven’t fnished do- of a sudden the sales kicked off on that To see an edited edition of my magic ing the other shapes that I know my one. The original 5 that was just 1-5 show, enter “A-1 Magician ventrilo- competitors are not going to do any- numbered twice, hardly anyone ever quist-google+” in your web browser thing with. And so, I guess it was last Page 14 bought those. It was just the fact that TSR lost $8 million trying to make It was a magic trick that created the the new 5-sided dice had an unusual their own dice tools before they fnally shape. We gave the new 5-sided dice went to Taiwan to get someone who more than 100,000 test rolls to make could do it right. No, I am not going to tell, because the sure. It rolled all 5 sides equally. Well, I knew there were 350 uses for approach can be used to make a 99, 98, Tell me the history of the Zocchihe- a 100-sided die in the frst edition of 97, 96, and 95 sided dice, and every dron D&D. I thought I should come up other number you want to use. I want Well, I was at an Origins convention with a 100-sided die. I carried in my to keep that element of information se- in Baltimore at a college. One of my breast pocket a spiral notebook. Any cret because as you saw, this last year friends came up and said to me, “Do time I had nothing else going I would two more people jumped into the dice you know the Armory is bringing out sit down and write down how many business. Why should I make it easy a 30-sided dice at Gen Con?” I said, numbers I would put on the equator, for them? no, I hadn’t heard about that. When I and just above the equator, and in the The frst guy I told about the 79-sided- went home I cut a lot of hexagons and row above that, and so on. I kept trying dice was Steve Jackson. The number pentagons and squares and triangles to make a 100-sided die. All of which rolled on a 79-sided dice is always fac- and tried scotch-taping them together was wasted effort. Then my wife said, ing down, so you can’t see the result. to see if I could create a 30-sided dice “Here’s something called Euler’s For- Steve believes only in 6-sided dice. All or something else. I failed wretchedly. mula. You could use it to make a 100 his games use 6-sided dice. Well, Steve sided dice.” I don’t speak math so I When I went to Gen Con, there was said you then have to sell them a $400 called up the tool-and-die maker. He glass table to go with the die. And then this 30-sided die that Roy Lipman said, “I don’t give a damn about any from the Armory was selling, and I you need to sell them an $800 French formula. How many elements are at mirror to put under the glass table so was stunned at how well it was put to- the north pole, how many on the ring gether. He smiled and bowed and said they can read the result without hav- around that, then the ring around that, ing to bend down. So you charge them thank you, thank you. And that was and the next ring, and so on?” Well, I about all. But later on, I discovered a $400 for the table and $800 for the mir- couldn’t get the formula to work, and I ror and $2 for the dice! doctor who teaches polyhedron shapes don’t speak math, so that didn’t work. and I told him about the 30-sided die. And he said it was designed in 1862. I had another friend who said I should will need a contest to create uses for He told me Eugene Catalan created it. get a hollow sphere, and put in 100 ball the 79-sided dice. A kid found this drawing and took it bearings, then spin it at high speed and take a high-speed photo to see where There’s no current need for a 79-sided to the Armory and they took it to their dice. I would hate to see people knock- tool-and-die maker and they took the the ball bearings end up on the inside of the sphere. It was interesting but ing themselves out pointlessly. They credit. Earlier they were selling Game- have enough to do fguring out what to science dice and putting their name on impossible. How do you know you have 100 ball bearings that take up the do with a 22-sided dice. At the moment them and saying they designed them. I don’t think any of the adventures you When I created gem dice, Roy Lipman exact surface area of the interior of the sphere? At what velocity do you spin have designed require a 22-sided die. called me up and chewed me out. “I The people who bought that did so just am busy getting credit for inventing to make sure centrifugal force spins the balls to exactly the right space? And because they don’t have one and God these dice, and now you came up with bless those people because they made something I don’t know about and it’s getting a high speed camera to take a photo at just the right time, these were it possible for me to survive when I had embarrassing because I can’t tell them a 14 and 16 and so on. the secret behind how it’s made!” all things I couldn’t do. The more I thought about it, the more Well, if I ever need an 82 or 79 or At one time, TSR got tired of mak- 94-sided die, I know the guy to go to. ing the people in Taiwan wealthy, so I realized there was a magic trick I per- they decided they would make their form that I could take some shortcuts At the time, I said if I just change this own dice. They went to a tool-and-die with to get the 100-sided dice worked one thing in the magic trick, I could maker in Milwaukee, and the guy said out. I thought, “It seems too simple.” make any size die. I asked myself, to they’d have the dice molds ready in 6 Later on a Sunday, when I had nothing make a 1,000-sided die, what would months. TSR believed it, but at the end else to do, I tried the shortcut and dis- it take. Well, it would be the size of a of 6 months he didn’t have the molds covered I had found out how to make soccer ball. I tried to visualize some- ready to deliver. TSR had already can- a 79-sided dice. I thought, “Nobody one who managed to stuff one of these celled their orders from Taiwan. At the wants a 79-sided die, but if I change into a pocket. And he gets on board end of 6 months they had no dice, so this one element to something smaller, the bus and he has to fsh the change they gave out coupons in their D&D I might me able to make a 100 sided from underneath the damn soccer ball boxes that you could redeem at local die come out.” It worked. I sent the in his pocket! parts to my tool-and-die maker and hobby shops for dice. This guy that Thanks for your time, Lou. I really told him how to lay it out so he would did the tools, he ran TSR around the enjoyed hearing your stories! block quite a few times. In the end, have a 100-sided die.

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