IN CONVERSATION INTERVIEW

very much, but he asked me to come and part of dermatology. Dermatology is a see some patients. That was his fraction of the regular and so hobby at weekends, he used to go to see you can imagine leprosy sort of gets one Gauhar Raza: Let me begin by asking the leprosy patients. In those days the paragraph in the textbook. you: Why did you choose science? leprosy patients were located all along the Indira Nath: I recall, when I was about river Yamuna, somewhere near Shahdara, Gauhar Raza: At that time a lot of ten, I wanted to do medicine. But when in Delhi, and it was like a colony of lepers. stigma, myths, superstitions were I came into medicine, I realized, pretty They were outcasts. He was part of a associated with leprosy across the world. early on, that even if I live to be hundred, social group. In that social group, there People were scared of even going close to and serve patients, how many people was a lady who used to come and pick me lepers and touching them and you started would I make a difference to? Whereas I up in a red Mercedes. She was the wife of working in a colony full of lepers. Were felt, if I did research that perhaps could the governor of the Reserve Bank of India. you not scared? make a bigger impact. We would go to the colony and did simple Indira Nath: No, I was not scared. That things like bandaging their ulcers, trying part didn’t affect me, the social aspect Gauhar Raza: What inspired you to take to get them magazines. There were a lot of affected me. Their personality changes up such a diffi cult research? south Indian people from my community when people become stigmatized. So that Indira Nath: Well, I was fascinated who were there. They left their villages part struck me more as a social problem. by leprosy at a fairly young age. I and came because of the stigma and so The medical problem of the ulcers not remember while doing medicine as the disease fi rst hit me in that manner. healing also worried me. But my mother an undergraduate, we had a tutor in You get taught very little about leprosy used to be very worried. I went to these Pharmacology. I didn’t like that subject in the medical course, because it is localities on weekends and when I Science Reporter, JUNE 2016 48 INCONVERSATION Professor INDIRA NATH (born 1938), a noted immunologist, is a world-renowned authority on leprosy. She established the Department of Biotechnology at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), New Delhi. Her research focused on mechanisms underlying immune responsiveness in humans, reactions and nerve damage in leprosy and a search for markers for viability of the leprosy bacillus, which is not cultivable. Her work led to the creation of tools for diagnostics, immunotherapy and antigens for clinical investigations. Professor Nath obtained her MBBS and MD from AIIMS. In 1970, she went to UK with a Nuffi eld Fellowship, where she worked in the area of infectious diseases particularly leprosy with at the National Institute of Medical Research, London. After returning to India, Professor Nath joined AIIMS and later became the founder Head of the newly established Department of Biotechnology in 1986. She has received a number of awards including Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Prize in Biological Sciences, Silver Banner, Tuscany, Italy, for Bio-technology, Basanti Devi Amir Chand Award, ICMR, Clayton Memorial Lecture Award, Padma Shri of the , Chevelier Ordre National du Merite, Government of France, Cochrane Research Award, Government of UK, L’Oreal UNESCO Awards for Women in Science — Asia Pacifi c Region. She is a Fellow of the National Academy of Sciences, India, Allahabad, Indian Academy of Sciences, Bengaluru, Indian National Science Academy, New Delhi, National Academy of Medical Sciences (India), Royal College of , London, Academy of Sciences for the Developing World, Trieste, Italy. She was the Vice President of the National Academy of Sciences (India), Allahabad. Mr Gauhar Raza interviews Professor Indira Nath. returned home she wanted me to have a Gauhar Raza: So, there is no reason for Indira Nath: Yes, we think it’s dependent bath fi rst before I entered the house. the myths and superstitions associated on the way our immune system is built. with leprosy? If my immune system is very poor, I get Gauhar Raza: Don’t you feel people Indira Nath: Absolutely, and now with infected. For instance, it’s not HIV that would be naturally scared of diseases better treatment and long incubation kills, when the immune system goes that are highly infectious? period you don’t even know if someone down and you get other like TB, Indira Nath: Well, leprosy is not very had leprosy and got cured. There are two the patient dies. In leprosy, fortunately, infectious. In fact, cold and fl u are much or three things that are very interesting the bug is pretty mild, it doesn’t really kill more infectious than leprosy. The leprosy about the disease. One fascinating you. It is clever because if it kills the whole bug takes a long time to grow and it property is that the bug doesn’t grow set of cells then the bug cannot survive. If doesn’t enter very quickly and even conventionally in a test tube. The TB bug the bug kills the host then it is a stupid the incubation period, the period after grows and so does typhoid but we cannot bug. It survives within us and responds and before the disease appears, grow leprosy bacillus in a test tube. So, to the immune system. That’s why I think takes years. So, unless you had a cut on you can’t really investigate the pathogen. it is a model for studying immunology your hand and you happen to touch the Secondly, you and I, we are all exposed and the immune system and investigate ulcer of a patient with bugs, you don’t to leprosy. But we all don’t get infected. why certain diseases like this are caused. get leprosy. What is frightening for the Now, of the people who get infected, one The other thing about this disease is that people is the nerve damage that occurs will just get a little white patch on the it infects the nerves. There are very few and deformities. That’s what frightens skin and may become alright after some bugs that infect the nerves, and that’s why people. time and he would not even know why you get patients with these deformities, he got the white patch and why it’s gone. and because it affects the nerves, leprosy Gauhar Raza: Probably more people The second lot gets the patch which lasts continues to be a major challenge. We are killed because of diseases like fl u, a little longer, but this group also gets have got very good drugs for leprosy. especially when it spreads in western cured very easily. Then you have another Now you can cure a patient. But the nerve countries, than leprosy. group, which gets generalized disease. damage doesn’t come back; that is our Indira Nath: Absolutely, nobody dies These people have thickened eyebrows, current worry. of leprosy per se. Leprosy doesn’t kill. It they are full of bugs. If we make a slight is a clever bug. It just wants to survive slit in the skin the bugs pour out and they Gauhar Raza: You have made signifi cant peacefully in the body. While it is are infective. So, the interesting question contributions to other areas of science as surviving there, the immune system is is, the same bug is infecting all of us, but well. Would you like to talk about them? trying to kill it, and it is the immune our body reacts to it differently, why? Indira Nath: Yes, currently, I am involved system that is causing the damage and in the international arena on two issues. deformities. The bug is trying to survive One is misconduct in science. The Gauhar Raza: This is the scientifi c peacefully so probably we should look at academies of the world have been very question that you asked and probed it kindly! These leprosy patients are not worried about it and now we have the further? very infectious. Global Research Council that is worried 49 Science Reporter, JUNE 2016 INCONVERSATION competentcompettent tot getgett thatthhat job!jjob! I nevernever feltfellt I ...you don’t even know if someone had leprosy and got cured. did science as a woman or as a man. One There are two or three things that are very interesting about the did science because of the questions one asked. But that doesn’t mean I have not disease...... seen others suffering. I have also seen, about it. I am co-chair for one of these involve, of course, social sciences. Physics even internationally, and certainly our global academies, where we were actually at the highest level is almost philosophy; I younger girls sometimes face problems. discussing how we could provide think these disciplines are going to merge, When they get married and have to give guidelines for young scientists. We feel defi nitely. Biology and engineering are up their career. Usually they marry men strongly that unless science is conducted already coming together. Biology is who are older than them and established in a proper manner, the faith of people merging into Chemistry. When you are in their career and so these girls have to fi t in science would go. Also it’s a lot of asking a major question, you need many in, with the husband. waste of money. If I do bad science and disciplines to come together, including somebody has to reproduce my work, it philosophy. Gauhar Raza: That brings me to the last causes a lot of wastage of time and funds. question: What would you like to say to It is a loss to Science. Gauhar Raza: When you look back, the younger generation of the country? The other aspect I am involved in do you feel your contribution has been Indira Nath: I think the younger as Chair is the relationship between recognized enough by your peer groups generation is very fortunate in that there urbanization and health. It’s not just and people at large? is lot more money now in the country. diseases this time we are talking about Indira Nath: I don’t think I have done There is a lot more liberalism in public but ‘health and well being’ of people. enough at all. I still haven’t answered funding and a lot of emphasis is being Asia in general and India in particular the question about the leprosy bacillus given to the younger generation to get is the fastest urbanizing area of the or the immune system. We are still fellowships to travel, which we didn’t world. Africa is another one. And we going stepwise for the past thirty years. have. The explosion of the Internet has are not urbanizing in a very planned Regarding awards, I think if you live long made accessing knowledge so much manner. You know in Delhi we have enough you just get them. I guess I was easier. We used to wait for three months just swallowed up farmlands and it has fortunate enough to live that long. May before the journal came to the library created multifold problems. Here we be it is because I selected topics that were and so you were already behind times. are using a multidisciplinary approach, unique to our country and used the state- All those advantages are there. But which we call as Systems approach. We of-the-art-technologies. on the other hand I see, and now I am are trying to propagate this approach talking like an old lady, is that they are Gauhar Raza: Which award do you value across the globe. The International very ambitious, very energetic, very the most? Council of Science (ICSU), which is based aspirational, but with impatience. And Indira Nath: Well, the only award that I in Paris, feels that you cannot address there are certain science topics you cannot wanted to get was the Bhatnagar Prize. the problem of urbanization in isolation. handle with impatience. It does take That was the one, I guess, I worked Politicians particularly in our country time. There is incremental increase in towards. For others I was nominated. It worry about rural areas, but now it is knowledge. It seems to me that some of made a tremendous difference to my life. seamless habitation. The boundaries them want fame, name, riches altogether Because otherwise I would have been between cities and villages are blurred at the same time! Maybe, that’s what older cocooned just in a medical college completely. It has already been predicted people say, but may be we were like that atmosphere, even though All India that 80% of India is going to be urbanized too, when we were younger. That needs Institute of Medical Science was a much in another decade or two. We have to be modulated a bit. I would say grab broader platform. Getting the Bhatnagar issues of urban planning, we have social, the opportunity, you are so fortunate. Prize somehow made me come across cultural and health issues to deal with. other sciences and other scientists and Gauhar Raza: Would you say that science But we deal with these issues and that’s been enormously helpful in the is the career that should be taken up by problems separately; we don’t have a way I looked at my problem, so that was the brightest of the minds. Would you systemic approach of looking at these a tremendous boost. recommend that? problems and this is what we are trying The other award is the UNESCO Indira Nath: I would say so, research I to investigate now at a global level and L’Oreal award. Well, that brought me think is fascinating. It takes time. But you I hope India also becomes a part of this onto the global scene and other countries can make a great contribution. It gives you global effort. started inviting me to address them on a high, when you get your paper into the various issues, not necessarily on science. best journals and the fact that you can ask Gauhar Raza: Is science going to be a question, and enjoy answering it at the the only way of solving problems of Gauhar Raza: Did you ever feel that being cost of public money. I think that’s a great humanity? a woman was an impediment in pursuing privilege we have and it’s very exciting. Indira Nath: No, I don’t think so. I think, science? science brings in a way of looking at Indira Nath: No, may be it’s because I things and it becomes a philosophy in its did medicine and in medicine we don’t Mr Gauhar Raza is Chief Scientist, CSIR- own way. The power of science is perhaps really have as much barriers. The basic National Institute of Science Communication and in being able to objectively and rationally sciences still have those barriers. May Information Resources ask a question and provide proof; but be I didn’t hit the glass ceiling one or (The interview was earlier telecast on Rajya Sabha standalone it will be sterile, unless we two time, but then may be, I was not TV) Science Reporter, JUNE 2016 50